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05:24:14 <oklofok> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
05:25:13 <oerjan> it's december already!
05:25:40 <oerjan> well in some time zones
05:27:09 <oerjan> time for dyslexics to start ruing the coming of satan
05:27:49 <oerjan> wait rue is the wrong word
05:28:44 <oklofok> it seems like it could be slightly wrong.
05:29:31 <oerjan> false friend with norwegian "grue", i say
05:30:26 <coppro> the only important timezone is whenever rollover ends
05:30:29 <coppro> which, fortunately, was already
05:30:40 <oerjan> hm wait english has grue too, and it fits better
05:31:24 <oklofok> well you know where it happens last
05:31:26 <oerjan> i sincerely doubt the east pacific has changed yet
05:32:01 <oerjan> SPEAK ENGLISH YOU INFIDEL
05:32:15 <Gregor> coppro: What's your MOXIE?
05:32:32 <coppro> 337 buffed, 262 unbuffed!
05:33:02 <oklofok> BYE ALL OF YOU, SEE YOU IN HELL
05:34:14 <coppro> December means Crimbo (and Hanukkimbo...) in KoL, which means YAY
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16:17:41 <oklofok> happy birthdays all around!
16:18:01 <oklofok> but i suppose to AnMaster most of all.
16:18:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is P(someone else having bday on 1 December in this channel)?
16:19:49 <augur> anmaster, we know how to calculate this stuff. dont be silly.
16:20:10 <AnMaster> augur, I didn't claim you didn't
16:20:47 <oklofok> i assumed he just wanted someone to tell him the prob
16:20:59 <AnMaster> oklofok, would this be affected if we knew that some of the remaining ones didn't? And what if you were allowed to switch door then?
16:24:31 <oklofok> anyway we have the random variables X_i for each dude on the chan except you, 1 for having a birthday, P(\exists i: X_i > 0) = 1 - P(X_1 == 0 and ... and X_n == 0) = 1 - P(X_1 == 0)P(X_2 == 0)...P(X_n == 0) = what i said, because these are clearly independent
16:25:00 <oklofok> X_i's are bernoulli distributed with probability 1/365
16:25:36 <oklofok> or you could think of it as a binomial distribution, but i prefer this way
16:27:35 <oklofok> (where independence is to justify equality number 2)
16:28:00 <AnMaster> oklofok, what about leap years?
16:28:09 <AnMaster> (how does that work with bdays anyway?
16:28:39 <oklofok> most leap people have their birthdays on feb 28th
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16:29:46 <AnMaster> oklofok, how would this be handled if humanity started to colonise other planets? With possibly different lengths of day and year.
16:29:59 <oklofok> but yes, i didn't account for that, it introduces less error than the fact people reproduce different amounts at different months
16:30:06 <AnMaster> what about 1.5 year per *day* for example?
16:30:30 <AnMaster> birthyear instead of birthday then?
16:31:16 <AnMaster> oklofok, but how often would that repeat? I mean, every 10000 or such?
16:32:03 <oklofok> birthday every 3 hours does sound intriguing
16:32:07 <AnMaster> not accounting for leap years or leap seconds an earth-year would be roughly 31536000 seconds
16:33:21 <AnMaster> so to round it, what about every 32000000 second?
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16:34:59 * AnMaster notes that writing (* 365 24 60 60) is much more compact than 365 * 24 * 60 * 60 (and skipping those spaces is ugly)
16:47:32 <ais523> wait, I can shorten that
16:49:15 <ais523> woah, J and Underlambda come to the same length for that?
16:49:37 <ais523> I'd expect Underlambda to be about twice as verbose on average
16:49:47 <ais523> which, considering I'm comparing it to J here, is pretty good
16:50:28 <ais523> I need to get back to working on it sometime, I don't think any of the half-finished interps implement t yet
16:50:39 <ais523> but it's basically fold
16:50:55 <ais523> (map is rather harder to implement, but that's planned to be part of the lang eventually)
16:52:28 * pikhq notes that having constant arity functions is significantly easier to parse
16:52:54 <ais523> t is constant arity in Underlambda
16:53:02 <ais523> it has arity 2, a function and a list
16:53:29 <ais523> it's defined even if the function doesn't take two arguments, but I suspect taking two arguments will be the usual use-case as it makes it act like fold
16:53:39 <ais523> (that is, two arguments, one return)
16:53:48 <pikhq> (* 365 24 60 60)? Bah. That's silliness. 365 24*60*60*
16:54:02 <ais523> pikhq: that's silliness as it doesn't generalise well
16:54:16 <pikhq> ais523: Kinda joking there.
16:54:21 <ais523> 365 24*60*60* is correct Underlambda too, though
16:54:24 <ais523> given that it's an RPN language
16:54:31 <pikhq> I prefer 365*24*60*60, generally.
16:54:57 <pikhq> Unless, of course, I'm trying to just operate a calculator.
16:55:07 <oklofok> yes, what if the division of a year into pieces changed! dangerous mixing data and control
16:55:12 <pikhq> RPN, IMO, is very much write-only.
16:55:35 <oklofok> thank god ehird isn't here
16:56:16 <ais523> (and you know he logreads, right?)
16:56:49 <ais523> also, some calendars, like the Aztec calendar, you need both addition and multiplication to calculate the length of a year
16:57:04 <oklofok> and yes, i know he logreads
16:57:36 <oklofok> "oklofok: thank god ehird isn't here" was targeted to logreading ehird most of all
16:58:01 <ais523> grr, I should work on Unlambda some time but I have so much else to do right now
16:58:25 <ais523> I want to write a compiler from Unlambda into Underlambda
16:58:28 <ais523> I used to have one, but deleted it by mistake
16:58:59 <oklofok> did you specifically optimize underlambda and underload for easy mixing-up with unlambda
16:59:18 <ais523> underlambda was specifically optimised for that, underload's etymology is unrelated
16:59:35 <ais523> but underlambda is a logical enough name for a purely functional underload
16:59:44 <oklofok> underload is the one i've been confusing all my life
17:00:33 <ais523> it was originally a tarpit version of overload
17:00:54 <ais523> and overload is pretty much abandoned now because underlambda does much the same thing but is more elegant
17:02:30 -!- asiekierka has joined.
17:03:07 <ais523> asiekierka: stop derailing the conversation, it was actually ontopic for once
17:03:43 <ais523> anyway, I'm kind of worried
17:03:48 <ais523> there was a weird whirring sound for a while
17:03:56 <ais523> now there's the smell of burnt silicon
17:04:13 <ais523> no, I think it was the flourescent lights here
17:04:18 <ais523> I turned it off, anyway
17:04:23 -!- calamari has joined.
17:04:36 <oklofok> overheard :P so now we're confusing overload and overheard too!
17:04:48 <oklofok> what's with these over-/under- terms
17:05:05 <oklofok> well i'm not sure that works because it's not a name of a language of yours
17:05:48 <fungot> //*/**/***/****/*****/******/*******/********/*********/**********/***********/************/*************/**************/***************/****************/*****************/******************/*******************/********************/*********************/**********************/***********************/*********************** ...too much output!
17:06:10 <ais523> gah, I've forgotten how to do loops properly
17:06:15 <ais523> or rather, failed to generalise
17:06:22 <ais523> my brain still had (:^):^ as the basic infinite loop
17:06:33 <ais523> but forgot to add one of the :^s when it came to writing a larger one
17:06:39 <oklofok> cool, i can actually still read taht
17:06:50 <oklofok> take that, pikhq's wild theories about rpn!
17:06:59 <ais523> what are they? that it's unreadable?
17:07:11 <oklofok> "pikhq: RPN, IMO, is very much write-only."
17:07:13 <ais523> I find RPN natural for certain types of statements
17:07:32 <ais523> e.g. Mathematica would be a lot more readable if it was all postfix, rather than a mix of postfix, prefix, and infix
17:09:16 <oklofok> it's kinda annoying math notation is 2d, i don't know how to memorize treeform data
17:09:47 <oklofok> one of my dreamlets is to memorize "schaum's handbook of mathematical formulas and stuff"
17:09:50 <ais523> (((a b) (c d)) ((e f) (g h)))
17:10:58 <oklofok> yeah stuff like sin^2 x + cos^2 x = 1
17:11:40 <quantumEd> anyway you can prove everything like that in trigology by converting it to a complex rational polynomial (which has decidible equality)
17:11:49 <oklofok> well there's the slight difference that pythagora's theorem is just an observation about the physical world, that's a consequence of the definitions of sin and cos
17:12:24 <oklofok> well i'm not saying i just want to memorize the trivial ones
17:12:29 <quantumEd> you think triangles only work because of complex transcendental functions?
17:12:37 <ais523> quantumEd: *trigonometry?
17:12:42 <ais523> I've never heard "trigology" used before
17:12:48 <oklofok> quantumEd: you can define distance in other ways.
17:12:50 <quantumEd> ais523: yeah stuff like sin and cosine
17:13:20 <oklofok> pythagorean theorem says if you define distance as sqrt(x^2 + y^2), then distance is sqrt(x^2 + y^2)
17:13:22 <ais523> one of the weirdest experiences in my life was walking into a room during Maths camp
17:13:32 <ais523> and seeing three people playing three-player table tennis while chanting trig identities
17:13:54 <ais523> admittedly, it would have been weirder still /outside/ maths camp
17:13:58 <ais523> but it was pretty jarring even then
17:14:36 <oklofok> anyway even if you're correct, and all trigonometric identities in formula books are in fact trivial to prove in your head and directly see the applications of, there's still the integration formulas, and constants.
17:15:21 <ais523> oklofok: learn Tschebychev's inequality
17:15:31 <ais523> apparently it implies most of the other interesting inequalities, but is a pain to memorise
17:19:41 <quantumEd> don't make math too formal it takes the soul out of it
17:19:49 <quantumEd> pythagoras isn't about square roots
17:21:59 <oklofok> you have to define distance before you can prove the pythagorean theorem gives you that
17:22:35 <oklofok> alrighty. i'm not following you
17:23:48 <quantumEd> nobody defines distance = sqrt(x^2 + y^2) THEN learns pythoagoras theorem
17:24:23 <quantumEd> distance = sqrt(x^2 + y^2) is because pythagoras theorem is _true_
17:24:49 <oklofok> yes. it's true with the metric defined with sqrt(x^2 + y^2)
17:25:30 <quantumEd> what are you saying, non-euclidean geometry?
17:26:40 <oklofok> i don't know which metrics give non-euclidean and which give euclidean geometries
17:27:34 <quantumEd> oklofok just look at this picture, http://thinkzone.wlonk.com/MathGems/pics/pythagorean_theorem.gif -- this proves pythagoras without any "R" or "metric" or analytic geometry
17:27:57 <oklofok> i mean the pythagorean theorem is a model that's nice for doing basic physics
17:28:00 <ais523> the original proof of Pythagoras' theorem was entirely geometrical, IIRC
17:28:19 <quantumEd> well basic physics is a different matter
17:28:21 <oklofok> the prof can only be geometrical
17:28:48 <oklofok> there can be no proof that isn't purely geometrical, because there is no inherent metric for the reals, you have to define one.
17:28:51 <quantumEd> you have given a non geometrical proof -_-
17:29:15 <quantumEd> you said distance = distance because it is
17:30:16 <oklofok> well right, that's the usual definition of distance in R^2, i guess definitions prove themselves
17:30:46 <oklofok> http://thinkzone.wlonk.com/MathGems/pics/pythagorean_theorem.gif <<< this is meaningless
17:31:15 <quantumEd> no it's got meaning, the meaning is what proves pythagoras theorem
17:31:22 <ais523> oklofok: I mean, not only purely geometrical, but without an attempt to translate it into mathematical language
17:31:26 <oklofok> well it's a nice experiment in kindergarden physics
17:31:36 <ais523> that image is a nice proof, though
17:31:39 <quantumEd> how does physics have anything to do with it?
17:31:40 <oklofok> but it's just a physics experiment
17:31:47 <ais523> the whole point is that d^2 = x^2 + y^2
17:32:03 <oklofok> you're proving the paper behaves according to the definition of distance on R^2
17:32:20 <ais523> and it proves that by showing that x^2 + y^2 + 4 copies of the original triangle's area = d^2 + 4 copies of the original triangle's area
17:32:29 <quantumEd> the picture of a triangle is not important, the _Perfect_ triangle which it denotes is what you must consider
17:32:35 <oklofok> if you were traveling near speed of light, that proof wouldn't apply anymore
17:32:38 <ais523> you can express Pythagoras' theorem in terms of areas rather than distances
17:32:52 <ais523> oklofok: it was originally
17:33:05 <ais523> arguably, the corollary to distances is a different theorem
17:33:05 <oklofok> but with papers and you traveling all around at different speeds, i'm sure it could bend a bit
17:34:08 <oklofok> ais523: to verify areas of things have to do with multiplication is another fun kindergarden physics experiment :P
17:34:46 <oklofok> it has nothing to do with: mathematics
17:35:01 <quantumEd> maybe to you mathematics is deduction trees which a computer can say "VALID" or "INVALID"
17:35:06 <ais523> one of my favourite proofs is the one I came up with myself that 1^3 + 2^3 + 3^3 + ... + n^3 = (1 + 2 + 3 + ... + n)^2
17:35:26 <ais523> also, I like the combinatorial proof of Fermat's Little Theorem, although it isn't mine
17:35:32 <oklofok> mathematics is taking objects that behave in a certain way, and proving that implies them behaving in some other way as well
17:36:10 <ais523> ok, consider a "times table" (a table where the element at (i,j) is i*j)
17:36:31 <ais523> if you multiply out the RHS of that expression, you get the sum of all elements in a times tabnle
17:36:50 <ais523> now, you divide the times table into areas based on the highest coordinate
17:36:57 <ais523> i.e. (1,1) has highest coordinate 1
17:37:07 <ais523> (1,2), (2,2), (2,1) have highest coordinate 2
17:37:30 <ais523> up to (1,n), (2,n), (3,n), ... (n,n), ... (n,3), (n,2), (n,1) with highest coordinate n
17:37:42 <ais523> say if you take all the values with highest coordinate i
17:37:53 <ais523> then you get i*(1+2+3+...+i+...+3+2+1)
17:38:39 <oklofok> that's a mathematical proof, you define numbers that behave in a certain way, and a few operations on them, then you prove those operations mix in an interesting way
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17:39:46 <ais523> as for the proof of Fermat's Little Theorem (which isn't mine, but is just as cool): we're trying to prove that (a^p) % p = a % p
17:39:59 <ais523> or in other words, p divides (a^p-a)
17:40:16 <ais523> now, suppose you have p objects arranged in a circle, each of which can be any of a colours
17:40:19 <oklofok> the nicest proof for that is a corollary from group theory, but go on
17:40:49 <ais523> if you rotate the circle, you need to rotate it an entire revolution to get back to the original arrangement of colours, unless all the objects are the same colour
17:41:03 <ais523> because there's a prime number of colours, so there's no other way to get a repeating pattern around the circle
17:41:12 <ais523> so there are a^p-a arrangements that aren't a solid colour
17:41:50 <ais523> and because you can't get the same arrangement twice as you rotate any of them, the total number must therefore be divisible by p
17:42:01 <ais523> (because p is the number of positions you can rotate to)
17:42:30 <oklofok> that's actually the corollary in disguise :)
17:42:38 <ais523> it's a very neat one, anyway
17:42:55 <ais523> this is nice, it means we don't have to debate about which is better
17:43:04 <oklofok> the idea in group theory is if you have some group, and a subgroup of its, then the size of the subgroup divides the parent groups size
17:43:22 <ais523> yep, same proof I think
17:44:42 <oklofok> okay i'll leave making this precise to oerjan
17:45:00 <quantumEd> how does "the total number must therefore be divisible by p" follow?
17:45:18 <oklofok> quantumEd: you have a partition of a^p-a into equivalence classes of size p
17:45:58 <ais523> quantumEd: because you can divide the a^p-a possible colourings into sets of p, which are the same up to rotation
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17:46:47 <oklofok> the equivalence classes partition the set, and each is of size p, so you have p * (number of equivalence classes) = a^p - a
17:48:26 <oklofok> ais523: the group theory one proves many other things though :P
17:48:43 <ais523> well, it's two parts to the same theorem
17:48:49 <ais523> the group theory proof is the second half of my proof
17:51:50 <oklofok> i'm not sure it's easy to extend that to the general case
17:52:06 <oklofok> oerjan: please explain that proof to me in terms of abstract algebra!
17:56:15 <oklofok> the idea for the usual proof is you take some subgroup H of a group, now it follows from the axioms of a group and the definition of a subgroup that it's an equivalence relation of the group's elements whether aH == bH, now because each aH is of the same size, we have |H| divides |G|
17:56:33 <oklofok> that one doesn't directly work for infinite groups ofc
17:56:49 <oklofok> aH just means multiplying all the subgroup's elements by a
17:57:04 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
17:58:25 <ais523> ugh, more spam phone calls
17:58:47 <ais523> there are loads to this office, I take the phone off the hook until they end in the hope of costing the spammers money
17:58:50 <ais523> and don't actually listen to them
17:59:08 <oerjan> um what, i wasn't paying attention
17:59:11 <oklofok> oh and p divides a^p-a follows from this when you take the multiplicative group of p elements and consider the subgroup generated by a, it's size must divide the size of the original group, but the group's size is p, so also <a> must be the whole p, which means the first power of a that is 1 can be p-1
17:59:31 <oklofok> subgroup generated by a = take 1, a, a^2, a^3, ...
18:00:00 <ais523> oerjan: we're discussing the combinatorial and group-theoretical proofs of Fermat's Little Theorem
18:00:03 <quantumEd> well you really want <a> = {..., a^-2, a^-1, a^0, a^1, a^2, ...}
18:00:03 <ais523> and whether or not they're the same
18:00:18 <quantumEd> but that's irrelevant here I suppose
18:00:26 <oklofok> well right, i was talking about the finite case
18:00:50 <oklofok> usually you need the inverses, but in the finite case, a^k = 1 for some k, so a^(k-1) is the inverse of a, so you don't need the explicitly
18:00:57 <quantumEd> hmm I don't like this notation I used with the dots
18:01:21 <quantumEd> it seems to suggest that all the elements are different
18:02:18 <oklofok> well luckily you have { ... } there to remove duplicates!
18:02:36 <oklofok> usually implemented using a hash table
18:04:58 <oklofok> i wanna do algebra so bad, i had a few courses in algebra in spring, but i only realized after taking them how awesome it was :P
18:07:01 <oerjan> my currently mushy brain cannot see how the two proofs would be ewuivalent
18:07:21 <oklofok> well i'm thinking he's implicitly defining some group of sort of permutations
18:07:30 <oklofok> but instead of p objects in p places, you have a objects
18:07:40 <oklofok> or maybe nothing like that
18:08:08 <oerjan> well an action of a group of p elements on a set of a^p elements
18:08:10 <quantumEd> I've got a book on algebra but I haven't read it yet
18:08:22 <oklofok> all i know is they have the same feel, you divide the whole thing into equivalence classes of size p
18:09:01 <quantumEd> both of them prove a^p-a/p is an integer :P
18:09:40 <oerjan> oklofok: his proof is also a group proof, but it's not the _same_ proof...
18:09:53 <oklofok> (a^p-a)/a is also an integer, true :P
18:10:28 <oklofok> oerjan: oh well i suppose that's a good point
18:10:54 <oklofok> damn you, i'm always right until you show up
18:11:27 <oerjan> IT'S PROBABLY BECAUSE OF QUANTUM
18:23:21 <oklofok> should i do fun stuff or not fun stuff? both need to be done by thursday
18:23:38 <oklofok> actually food is third option
18:24:07 <ais523> eat first, then you'll enjoy both the fun and the unfun stuff more
18:24:13 <oklofok> alright, i have all the votes i need
18:24:29 <oklofok> ais523: but i'm sorta full, it's just the food will go bad if i don't eat it... :P
18:24:38 <oklofok> well i'm not that full, something in-between
18:24:43 <ais523> eat it just before it goes bad?
18:24:55 <oklofok> yes i'll put like a timer in the fridge
18:24:59 <oerjan> use it for mold experiments
18:25:25 <oerjan> the world needs new antibiotics!
18:25:28 <oklofok> i've ben bacheloring it up for 5 days, there's enough mold experiments here already.
18:25:43 <ais523> I think possibly the best advice here is that asking #esoteric for advice on this sort of thing is a bad idea
18:26:01 <oklofok> hey i got exactly the answer i wanted
18:26:24 <oklofok> also why is it so hard to remember quantumEd is fax
18:26:37 <oerjan> oklofok: it's the uncertainty
18:26:54 <ais523> also, why would you ask if you already wanted a particular answer?
18:27:03 <oklofok> why does it matter who you are? because you have a personality
18:27:09 <ais523> except to get statements from us that you could later use to destroy our political careers
18:27:30 <oklofok> in fact a very distinct one
18:29:12 <oklofok> also it's nice to know which ones are noobies, because i behave slightly differently based on the portions
18:30:36 <oerjan> yes, you need to be polite until they are properly addicted
18:34:29 -!- quantumEd has quit ("Leaving").
18:35:08 <oklofok> wait that's the opposite of what should happen if a regular has a new nick!
18:35:10 * oerjan observes quantumEd's momentum to be away from this channel
18:35:52 <oerjan> his position is now relatively unknown, though
18:35:52 <oklofok> not that i was that nice to him, i told him his math was wrong, which is pretty much the worst thing you can do to a person
18:36:05 <oklofok> i mean if my math was wrong i'd probably kill someone
18:36:08 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
18:36:32 <oerjan> don't speak of things too horrible to contemplate
18:37:09 <oklofok> starting to doubt your math after me and fizzie's talk about reals?
18:37:14 <ais523> oklofok: you know, it's OK to unbelieve things you previously believed if someone points out errors in them
18:37:21 <ais523> otherwise, you'd end up believing everything, which is even worse
18:37:42 <oklofok> ais523: but there's a certain point in life where your math is set. mine is.
18:38:09 <ais523> I'm a research student
18:38:15 <ais523> and therefore, /expect/ to be discovering new maths
18:38:30 <oklofok> but i expect new maths to fit my maths.
18:39:01 <oklofok> i'm using the definition of math relevant to the maths being wrong comment
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18:39:54 <oklofok> also i proved a pretty ridiculous micro-lemma today, Q is an identifying code of R
18:40:16 <oklofok> if we call R as a code, points are codewords
18:41:10 <oklofok> identifying code = there's some r such that the map x -> B(x, r) \cap I is an injection
18:42:14 <oklofok> (basically you can determine a point by which elements of the identifing code are within some distance of it)
18:42:35 <ais523> ^ul (:^:^:^:^)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**~:^):^
18:42:37 <oerjan> hm isn't identifying code == dense subset of R ?
18:42:52 <ais523> ^ul (:*:*:*:*)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**~:^):^
18:42:52 <fungot> ****************/***************/**************/*************/************/***********/**********/*********/********/*******/******/*****/****/***/**/*///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ...too much output!
18:42:58 <oklofok> oerjan: not exactly, consider taking all the intervals (2k, 2k+1) out
18:43:16 <oklofok> at least you can remove some small interval
18:43:36 <oerjan> ok but any dense subset is an identifying code
18:44:17 <oklofok> well, if x != y, then there's an open interval between the extremes of the balls around them
18:44:23 <oklofok> and in that open set, there's an element
18:44:31 <ais523> ^ul (:*:*:*:*)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):^
18:44:45 <ais523> ^ul (:*:*:*:*)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):^
18:44:46 <fungot> ****************/***************/**************/*************/************/***********/**********/*********/********/*******/******/*****/****/***/**/*/
18:45:01 <ais523> ^ul (:*:*:*:*:*)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):^
18:45:01 <fungot> ********************************/*******************************/******************************/*****************************/****************************/***************************/**************************/*************************/************************/***********************/**********************/**************** ...too much output!
18:45:11 <ais523> ^ul (:*::*:**:*)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):^
18:45:12 <fungot> ********************/*******************/******************/*****************/****************/***************/**************/*************/************/***********/**********/*********/********/*******/******/*****/****/***/**/*/
18:45:27 <ais523> ^ul (::*:*:**:*)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):^
18:45:27 <fungot> ******************/*****************/****************/***************/**************/*************/************/***********/**********/*********/********/*******/******/*****/****/***/**/*/
18:45:34 <ais523> ^ul (:*:*::**:*)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):^
18:45:34 <fungot> ************************/***********************/**********************/*********************/********************/*******************/******************/*****************/****************/***************/**************/*************/************/***********/**********/*********/********/*******/******/*****/****/***/**/*/ ...too much output!
18:46:17 <oklofok> oerjan: first of all i think the definition of some sort of denseness closure is relevant here, take the union of all closed intervals C such that C \cap I is dense in C
18:46:26 <ais523> ^ul (:*:*::**:*)(~:(*)~^S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(:(/)~^S^)~*^~:^):^
18:46:26 <fungot> ************************/***********************/**********************/*********************/********************/*******************/******************/*****************/****************/***************/**************/*************/************/***********/**********/*********/********/*******/******/*****/****/***/**/*
18:46:36 <oklofok> because we just case about whether the endpoints land on somewhere like that
18:47:03 <ais523> it'd look neater in Underlambda, I wouldn't have to write all those operations out by hand
18:47:05 <oklofok> ais523: isn't it great how things are fun to relearn again once you've forgotten them :P
18:47:17 <oerjan> oklofok: ok other attempt: I is an identifying code with given r iff (I-r) union (I+r) is dense subset of R
18:47:20 <ais523> oklofok: well, in this case it's more reminding myself of how it works
18:47:43 <ais523> also, interestin that there's exactly one a command in that
18:48:39 <ais523> actually, I've known the expression for decrement for ages, just haven't written it into a program like that
18:49:26 <ais523> after all, (:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~** is rather messy
18:50:13 <ais523> that would be ':`'*`(!01)&* in Underlambda, just with simple abbreviations
18:50:29 <ais523> and probably just 1- with full abbreviations
18:50:55 <ais523> that makes no sense for this
18:51:02 <ais523> (!!()()) it would probably remain
18:51:09 <ais523> 0 pushes a 0, not runs a 0
18:51:22 <oklofok> oerjan: to humiliate myself further, i actually originally tried to prove Q is *not* an identifying code
18:51:55 <oklofok> but mentioned this to a prof, and he said think again
18:53:11 <ais523> (!())~^(!())~^ would be 0`0` in Underlambda
18:57:50 <ais523> I'm vaguely wondering if 0` should be a single character, but it wouldn't be used enough
18:58:19 <oklofok> oerjan: so in fact the best you can do is to cover "half" of R (measuring proportions using the obvious system based on limits)
18:58:33 <oklofok> at least i think it follows from that
18:58:51 <oklofok> well cover, if you take the closure i explained earlier
18:59:11 <oklofok> taking the union of dense closed intervals first
19:00:09 <ais523> let's see... that whole section near the end, minus printing the slash, could be written :@gg^
19:00:24 <ais523> which is a lot shorter than :(!())~^(!())~^~a(:(/)~^S^)~*^~
19:00:52 <ais523> ooh, thought of a clever way to allow for the slash
19:01:12 <ais523> ^ul (:*:*::**:*)(~:(*)~^S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):((/)S)*^
19:01:13 <fungot> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************/
19:01:21 <ais523> ^ul (:*:*::**:*)(~:(*)~^S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):((/)S)*~^
19:01:21 <fungot> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************///////////////////////
19:01:36 <ais523> wait what, why did those do the same thing
19:02:17 <ais523> heh, appending to the wrong end of the loop
19:02:21 <ais523> ^ul (:*:*::**:*)(~:(*)~^S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):((/)S)~*~^
19:02:22 <fungot> ************************/***********************/**********************/*********************/********************/*******************/******************/*****************/****************/***************/**************/*************/************/***********/**********/*********/********/*******/******/*****/****/***/**/*
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19:12:49 <ais523> ooh, seems my issue with the Windows 7 computer that used to be here was actually Microsoft's fault
19:12:58 <ais523> rather than incompetence by the IT support department
19:13:02 <ais523> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8388253.stm
19:13:51 <ais523> hmm, actually mine might be different, as it happened during boot rather than after login
19:23:17 <oklofok> these exercises just get easier and easier because students never manage to present all 7 during the 2 hour session, so we keep falling more and more behind, next week there's 3 last week's problems to show
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19:23:47 <oklofok> (we usually have 7 problems, and a random student is chosen to present each)
19:26:24 <oklofok> so not exactly a foolproof system
19:38:19 <pikhq> Man, I really must be not feeling well: typing is hard.
19:39:24 <ais523> I know I am, and probably I'm typoing more as a result
19:39:38 <ais523> after all, I had to type "typoing" three times before I got the first two letters right
19:39:51 <ais523> and I somehow managed to spell "probably" with a capital P, and had to correct that too
19:39:56 <pikhq> I'm doing "okay" so long as I avoid flourescent lights.
19:40:04 <pikhq> (such as are in every building on campus)
19:40:22 <pikhq> Flickering lights hurt like fuck.
19:40:49 <ais523> sounds like migrane, then
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20:26:23 <jpc> heya FireFly
20:26:37 * jpc is jcp, I just have two accounts since I have too many channels for one
20:27:23 <FireFly> Oh, didn't even notice the difference at first glance
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20:41:33 <AnMaster> argh I just ran into a system that lacked less
20:41:42 <AnMaster> as in, only pager around is "more"
20:41:59 <ais523> it has similar bindings to less
20:42:02 <ais523> just allows editing too
20:42:03 <AnMaster> ais523, not around, nor emacs. There is nano however
20:42:12 <ais523> wait, no vi? not even vim.tiny?
20:42:19 <ais523> something is wrong with the universe
20:42:43 <AnMaster> ais523, shell is zsh. There is also ash, but no bash
20:42:56 <ais523> ok, something is /very/ wrong with the universe
20:43:09 <ais523> I wonder if the same pattern repeats for other programs
20:43:20 <AnMaster> as far as I can tell it is sane
20:43:28 <ais523> AnMaster: contradiction
20:43:39 <AnMaster> ais523, well, "no less sane than usually"
20:44:09 <ais523> hmm, what calculators are available? let me guess, dc and Mathematica?
20:44:25 <ais523> languages... asm and Haskell?
20:45:12 <AnMaster> but I'm not sure what the binary for it is called
20:45:14 <ais523> I was just trying to guess the pattern
20:45:36 <AnMaster> ais523, it has gcc but not g++
20:46:07 <ais523> which is strange as g++ is generally the same or a very similar binary
20:46:28 <AnMaster> ais523, you can use --enable-languages iirc to say you don't want c++
20:46:51 <ais523> I mean, they must have /deliberately/ excluded C++ support
20:46:58 <ais523> only time I've done that was for gcc-bf
20:47:00 <oklofok> i just made a reduction in the wrong direction
20:47:09 <ais523> because I didn't want to bother working out an ABI for exception handling
20:50:14 <AnMaster> ais523, apart from that, hm... there is joe too. The text editor I mean
20:50:38 <ais523> also, nano /and/ pico would be ridiculous
20:50:55 <ais523> IIRC, nano's bug-compatible with pico by default, apart from supporting more commands
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20:55:55 <ais523> not finished, and unlikely to be for a while due to RL pressures, and not being top of my esolang priorities (Feather and Underlambda are higher)
20:56:13 <ais523> but finished enough to feel like an incredibly buggy finished program rather than an unfinished one
20:56:59 <ais523> I compile C to ABI, which is an invented asm-like language
20:57:06 <ais523> the first compiler is done, the second isn't
20:57:35 <calamari_> I tried to figure out gcc a few times but I always got bogged down
20:57:47 <calamari_> congrats on getting past that point :)
20:57:59 <ais523> I even found a bug in gcc, but it was in a codepath that isn't used for any of the architectures they support
20:58:05 <ais523> so arguably, it isn't a bug, and probably they don't care
20:58:30 <ais523> most of it maps onto BF pretty simply
20:59:01 <ais523> e.g. tadd2.8 %r0, %r1, %r2 would be (with the pointer at r0) [-<+<+>>]
20:59:17 <ais523> but some bits, e.g. compare, multiplication, and, are harder
20:59:35 <ais523> basically it's about as powerful as a typical RISC assembly language
20:59:39 <ais523> but designed to be good for BF in particular
20:59:53 <ais523> calamari_: yes, except for the difficulty of transferring the files in question
21:00:09 <ais523> the entire gcc source distribution is rather large, as is that for newlib
21:00:15 <calamari_> I made a bf assembly language a while back and tried to port it, but again, like I say I got stuck hehe
21:00:34 <ais523> and I'm not entirely sure if it would work if you downloaded a current gcc version, rather than the one I'm working with
21:00:39 <ais523> also, gcc-bf isn't on this computer
21:00:50 <ais523> but I have a computer with it on, 'twould just take a while to boot
21:01:16 <calamari_> well honestly I was just going to look at it to understand
21:01:34 <ais523> also, the gcc build process is truly insane
21:01:43 <ais523> so much so, that I have my own parallel build process that is also insane
21:01:55 <ais523> and runs it a bit at a time, occasionally using Perl scripts to modify gcc's own build process
21:02:39 <calamari_> you must have an incredible amount of patience
21:02:49 <ais523> fun fact: gcc .md files are all polygolts
21:02:57 <ais523> between two similar but not identical languages
21:03:04 <pikhq> ais523: Patch of GCC, rather than full source tree?
21:03:10 <pikhq> Still probably large, but less so.
21:03:21 <ais523> it's mostly confined to one directory
21:03:33 <pikhq> And yeah, GCC's build system is freaking insane.
21:03:45 <ais523> and a few patches to the build system, lying to it to tell it that bf-unknown-none is a processor supported by GNU
21:04:12 <calamari_> what is your register size, 32 bits?
21:04:33 <pikhq> ais523: Well, ideally it is a supported processor. :P
21:04:37 <ais523> so an int takes up 4 registers
21:04:59 <pikhq> Though the binutils probably don't much care for it...
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21:05:32 <ais523_> ld does the actual assembling
21:05:38 <ais523_> ar is a wrapper around tar
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21:05:45 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
21:06:17 <pikhq> And ranlib is a noop?
21:07:47 <ais523> actually, it's a no-op even on most sane systems
21:08:21 <Gregor> It's a no-op on Linux.
21:08:27 <Gregor> It's not a no-op on Mac OS X.'
21:08:46 <Gregor> Wots all this about bf-gcc now?
21:08:54 <Gregor> Is it still maintained/developed?
21:09:14 <pikhq> It is such a shame that the ar format is not even remotely standardised.
21:09:32 <pikhq> Gregor: Yeah, ais523 still develops it, just not a whole lot.
21:09:39 <ais523> Gregor: not really; I haven't abandoned on it, but it's so far down my list of priorities there's unlikely to be progress for years
21:11:56 <AnMaster> ais523, if you made the diff against base gcc available
21:12:06 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm trying to do that right now
21:12:07 <AnMaster> someone else could set up a repo and take over
21:12:15 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and tell us what version the base gcc is
21:12:25 <ais523> you can guess from the build script
21:12:33 <ais523> as it has the exact version number and date in
21:13:26 <calamari_> do you have a bf hello world it made?
21:13:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I would probably begin by porting it to modern gcc. to avoid all hell breaking loose. Well I guess less of a risk of that actually when it isn't bootstrapped
21:13:47 <ais523> AnMaster: bootstrapping it would be insane
21:13:48 <AnMaster> calamari_, that's several MB when encoded with runlength
21:14:24 <ais523> due to the need to add in a runtime, etc
21:14:37 <ais523> because that would imply compiling gcc into brainfuck
21:15:13 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/akqbhj/gcc-bf.tar.gz is the diff against gcc and newlib, and the build script
21:15:14 <calamari_> I bootstrapped my bf assembler, but that's at a completely different scale hehe
21:15:30 <ais523> also, I haven't got a hello world to work that uses either stdio, or unix syscalls
21:15:50 <ais523> the famous several-MB one requires use of __bf_out
21:15:52 <AnMaster> ais523, do you know if it is gcc->abi or abi->bf issue?
21:16:02 <ais523> the second, almost certainly
21:16:06 <AnMaster> ais523, actually it seems to be 435K
21:16:10 <ais523> it's less-well tested, also less complete
21:16:15 <AnMaster> it was several MB if *not* RLL encoded
21:16:28 <ais523> gcc-bf assumes that runlength is optimised
21:16:49 <AnMaster> ais523, do you have an ABI interpreter?
21:16:56 <AnMaster> ais523, or any other useful testing tools
21:17:00 <ais523> source tarballs you need: gcc-4.2-20070719.tar.lzma newlib-1.16.0.tar.gz
21:17:06 <ais523> oh, there is one testing tool
21:17:18 <ais523> which is designed specifically to debug gcc-bf
21:17:24 <ais523> link = not online, let me tarball it up too
21:17:44 <ais523> oh, no need, it's in the tarball I've already posted
21:17:57 <AnMaster> ais523, does this support out of tree builds?
21:18:19 <ais523> AnMaster: the build system is very inflexible
21:18:21 <pikhq> So, the really major thing that GCC-BF misses is functioning syscalls? (and therefore most of libc)
21:18:31 <ais523> it always cp -rs the original tree
21:18:49 <ais523> then it builds gcc and newlib in a mix of in-tree and out-of-tree
21:18:55 <ais523> copying the resulting files into a fourth tree
21:18:59 <ais523> which is the one you actually run it from
21:19:08 <ais523> pikhq: no, the really major thing it's missing is multiplication
21:19:19 <pikhq> ais523: ... Multiplication. Really.
21:19:20 <ais523> which is, I suspect, the reason that the syscalls aren't functioning
21:19:30 <ais523> pikhq: I told you I hadn't finished
21:19:39 <ais523> /you/ try writing a 64-bit multiply in BF
21:19:45 <AnMaster> argh I was just adding it to a bzr repo
21:19:54 <AnMaster> turns out it was already darcsed
21:19:54 <ais523> that has some modicum of efficiency
21:19:58 <ais523> AnMaster: it isn't, really
21:20:02 <ais523> that darcs repo isn't a proper repo
21:20:06 <AnMaster> adding patches/config-bf/_darcs/inventory
21:20:09 <ais523> it's basically used as a versions repository
21:20:17 <pikhq> ais523: I presume you have 64-bit adding?
21:20:18 <ais523> normally, you commit code after you write it
21:20:32 <ais523> in that repo, I was commiting just before I did something potentially disasterous
21:20:40 <ais523> so I could roll back to before what I did
21:20:46 <pikhq> Hmm. That makes it only *quite* painful.
21:20:47 <ais523> also, ignore all the documentation in that tree, it's wrong
21:21:28 <ais523> well, it's accuratish enough to give an idea of what I'm doing, but not the details
21:21:28 <ais523> the comments in the source, OTOH, are up to date
21:21:28 <AnMaster> ais523, hm... so can I use darcs on it
21:21:30 <AnMaster> or is there some crucial part missing
21:21:39 <ais523> just don't expect the version history to make any sense, unless you're drunk at the time
21:21:47 <AnMaster> ais523, it seems only part of patches/ has _darcs?
21:22:02 <ais523> it's just the gcc bit that was in darcs
21:22:09 <ais523> my suggestion is that you rm -r the _darcs dir
21:22:15 <AnMaster> ais523, only config-bf has darcs stuff
21:22:15 <ais523> and then, version with any versioning system you like
21:22:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I will use bzr as you probably know
21:22:31 <ais523> I don't mind that at all, why should I?
21:24:03 <AnMaster> ais523, is that based on upstream or some distro?
21:24:19 <AnMaster> because only gcc-4.2-20070719 I can find is from ubuntu bug reports
21:24:28 <ais523> it's what I got by doing apt-get source gcc-source
21:24:30 <ais523> or something like that
21:24:39 <ais523> it's probably a nightly
21:25:02 <AnMaster> ais523, do you remember what version of debian or ubuntu you did that on?
21:25:04 <AnMaster> considering my jaunty has 4.3.3
21:25:43 <ais523> no, but considering the date, 7.10 seems plausible
21:25:52 <AnMaster> ais523, what was that one called?
21:26:32 <AnMaster> ais523, what about gutsy? would that match?
21:28:45 <AnMaster> ais523, why is lucid 10.04? rather than 10.0
21:29:11 <ais523> if somehow they're late with the release, it'd be 10.05
21:29:25 <ais523> the pressure to release every 6 months is one of the things that leaves Ubuntu rather buggy
21:30:00 <AnMaster> ais523, which one will be the next LTS?
21:30:10 * AnMaster is going to aim for next LTS and stay on that
21:31:13 <ais523> I think lucid is an LTS
21:31:51 <AnMaster> ais523, well I guess karmic before then for a bit
21:32:05 <AnMaster> ais523, was jaunty unusually stable or what?
21:32:14 <ais523> it was stabler than karmic, at least
21:32:25 <ais523> different versions seem to be stable for different people, for some reason
21:32:38 <ais523> OTOH, the wireless works even better with karmic than it did with jaunty
21:32:51 <ais523> (with earlier versions it was somewhat broken)
21:32:52 <AnMaster> ais523, I would say my gentoo system is one of the most stable systems I owner
21:33:07 <AnMaster> in fact my arch system manages to be bleeding edge *and* stable
21:34:18 <ais523> it's a directory that becomes config/bf inside gcc itself
21:34:29 <ais523> it contains all the patches to gcc that deal with actually doing interesting things
21:34:33 <ais523> as opposed to build tweaks, etc
21:34:41 <AnMaster> what is the darcs command to show full log?
21:34:49 <ais523> but you won't get much out of it
21:35:37 <ais523> it's a pseudo-register that refers to the flags
21:35:40 <ais523> like overflow, carry, etc
21:35:50 <ais523> gcc-bf has a physical cc0, also cc1, cc2, and cc3
21:35:55 <ais523> which are used as temporaries when doing comparisons
21:36:19 <ais523> which is actually named ld, normally, when it's installed
21:36:28 <ais523> it deals with things like constructors in C++
21:36:33 <ais523> by wrapping around main
21:36:42 <AnMaster> ais523, you use little endian?
21:36:46 <ais523> it's an awful hack, and something that gets in my way a lot, and that I don't actually need
21:36:55 <ais523> and I use little-endian to make casting easier
21:37:28 <ais523> (short)x is in the same memory location as (long)x
21:37:43 <ais523> if you use big-endian, you have to write code for downcasting
21:37:58 <ais523> this is the main theoretical advantage for little-endian, as far as I know
21:38:01 <AnMaster> ais523, please explain the purpose of patch-libgcc-mk.pl to someone who don't know perl
21:38:14 <ais523> AnMaster: it patches the build system
21:38:22 <ais523> I could have used sed instead, but the Perl is cleaner
21:38:37 <ais523> basically, libgcc contains implementations of things like floating-point emulation
21:38:54 <ais523> the build script for libgcc is generated dynamically during the compilation of gcc
21:38:59 <ais523> so doesn't exist initially, to be patched
21:39:09 <AnMaster> ais523, did you consider doing an llvm backend instead?
21:39:15 <ais523> AnMaster: not at the time
21:39:18 <ais523> I might, at some point
21:39:25 <AnMaster> ais523, since llvm supports PIC16 and such even
21:39:44 <ais523> anyway, gcc assumes, for some reason, that the largest possible integer is twice the native word size
21:40:04 <ais523> which is a strange assumption to make, given that __int128_t exists and it compiles on 32-bit systems
21:40:15 <ais523> so it's even violating its own assumptions there
21:40:30 <ais523> probably there's a separate hack in an entirely different part of the code
21:40:39 <AnMaster> ais523, of course llvm backend would imply C++ that really feels like C++
21:40:51 <ais523> anyway, one of the things that libgcc does is things like 64-bit operations in terms of 32-bit operations
21:41:07 <ais523> my idea, basically, was to get it to also do 32-bit in terms of 16-bit, and 16-bit in terms of 8-bit
21:41:27 <ais523> that means I don't need to write an enormous number of cases in the linker
21:41:37 <ais523> things like 64-bit multiplication are bad enough
21:41:57 <AnMaster> ais523, is newlib from gutsy too?
21:42:18 <ais523> as ehird will tell you, I rarely look for things on the Web
21:42:22 <AnMaster> ais523, and did you use the patches from ubuntu?
21:42:31 <ais523> definitely no in the case of gcc
21:42:39 <ais523> given that the tarball I downloaded contained another tarball
21:42:42 <ais523> for newlib, I'm actually not sur
21:44:09 <ais523> it's basically the libc
21:44:15 <ais523> well, newlib is the libc
21:44:40 <ais523> but you can't write a libc entirely from scratch
21:44:40 <ais523> as it would be unable to do I/O, etc
21:44:40 <ais523> so it's all the bits of libc that can't be written in pure C
21:44:53 <ais523> libbf is, instead, written in magic
21:44:59 <AnMaster> <ais523> but you can't write a libc entirely from scratch <-- why not? it would just take some time
21:45:17 <ais523> as in, you need inline ASM
21:45:19 <ais523> or something else similar
21:45:23 <AnMaster> ais523, well. that isn't what you said
21:45:47 <ais523> the funny thing is, some of it is pure C
21:45:55 <ais523> given that the filesystem is a linked list stored on the heap
21:46:02 <ais523> the C standard requires files
21:46:08 <ais523> but doesn't require them to persist past the end of the program
21:46:09 <AnMaster> ais523, is the ABI documented anywhere?
21:46:42 <ais523> ABI the asm, or ABI the application binary interface?
21:46:54 <ais523> the interface is documented, to some extent, in comments in bf.g
21:46:54 <AnMaster> ais523, your own fault for confusing it
21:47:00 <ais523> AnMaster: I did that deliberately
21:47:09 <ais523> and the asm is documented, to some extent, in bf-ld
21:47:16 <oklofok> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_operations <<< look at the definition of prefix-closed, is it just me or does that make no sense?
21:47:19 <AnMaster> ais523, where is the asm -> bf translator?
21:47:31 <AnMaster> if so I will probably rewrite it
21:47:31 <ais523> bf-ld does most of the actual work
21:47:44 <ais523> AnMaster: that'd be rewriting more than half the project
21:47:51 <AnMaster> ais523, well, I don't know perl
21:47:53 <ais523> although, don't let that stop you if you really want to
21:47:53 <oklofok> for instance Pref({aaa}) would be the empty set
21:48:13 <AnMaster> ais523, is your longjmp stuff tested?
21:48:35 <ais523> no, and indeed I think it doesn't work
21:48:35 <ais523> it took long enough to get just regular function calls working
21:48:35 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? I have no clue about how it should work really
21:48:40 <ais523> AnMaster: same way it's implemented in any other language
21:48:58 <ais523> except that in gcc-bf, you also have to clear the frame pointer stack
21:49:00 <AnMaster> I have no clue how it usually work
21:49:09 <ais523> which is something that AFAIK no processor has in hardware
21:49:13 <ais523> normally it's implemented as a linked list instead
21:49:32 <AnMaster> ais523, what would happen with -fomit-frame-pointer in gcc-bf?
21:49:39 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think you can actually do that
21:49:47 <ais523> OTOH, the frame pointer doesn't take up a register
21:49:48 <AnMaster> ais523, why do you need the frame pointer?
21:50:05 <ais523> so you can return from functions when you use alloca or VLAs
21:50:21 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? how does "normal" targets handle that?
21:50:32 <ais523> by adding a frame pointer for functions that use them, IIRC
21:50:44 <ais523> omit-frame-pointer doesn't necessarily omit it everywhere
21:51:30 <ais523> because, there is a hardware frame pointer stack
21:51:33 <ais523> which is a lot lot more efficient than storing the pointer as an intege
21:51:42 <ais523> dereferencing a numeric pointer is slow slow slow in BF
21:51:52 <ais523> just doing [<] until you find a 0 is much faster
21:52:28 <ais523> also, it would reduce the computational class
21:52:33 <AnMaster> Output the ABI produced by the link as well as the final brainfuck
21:52:33 <AnMaster> Output the low-level ABI that shows what the ABI was transformed to
21:52:38 <ais523> gcc-bf has no problems allowing you to go over the top of pointer-accessible memory
21:52:47 <ais523> you can't actually overflow the stack
21:53:02 <ais523> just, you mustn't ask for or dereference a pointer to stack elements above the top of memory
21:53:22 <AnMaster> ais523, what happens to the frame pointer in callees? like a VLA-allocating function calling one using alloca?
21:53:33 <ais523> it stays on the frame pointer stack, obviously
21:53:44 <ais523> oh, on other processors, it gets saved in a register somewhere, I think
21:53:44 <AnMaster> oh you said register I thought?
21:53:55 <ais523> well, the registers get mapped to memory when you call a function anyway
21:54:22 <ais523> if you need to preserve the content of a register across a function call
21:54:32 <ais523> be it the frame pointer or anything else
21:54:37 <ais523> then you copy it to memory
21:54:39 <AnMaster> ais523, aren't usually half of them caller saved and half callee-saved?
21:54:40 <ais523> standard compiler design
21:54:45 <ais523> AnMaster: actually, correct in this case too
21:55:05 <ais523> 32 caller-saved, 32 callee-saved
21:55:14 <ais523> also, many special-purpose ones
21:55:40 <AnMaster> ais523, why not? if memory is slow and registers less so you would want more no?
21:56:05 <ais523> partly to prevent register scheduling taking forever
21:56:27 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? but what about current arches with lots of registers?
21:56:40 <AnMaster> ais523, and llvm internally uses 1024 virtual registers
21:56:46 <ais523> I could add more, I suppose
21:56:58 <AnMaster> ais523, would have to check if it would help or not
21:57:15 <AnMaster> ais523, what special purpose registers are there?
21:57:31 <ais523> there's a nice list in bf-ld somewhere, let me find it
21:58:41 <AnMaster> ais523, what are their functions?
21:59:06 <ais523> a scratch register, two carry registers, two maintained at 0, three temp registers
21:59:06 <ais523> also three pointers (mark, stack, frame)
21:59:17 <ais523> AnMaster: for leaving loops, etc
21:59:23 <ais523> it's two a specific distance apart
21:59:28 <ais523> so that you can become sure where the pointer is
21:59:33 <ais523> when you weren't sure where it was before
21:59:38 <ais523> it's the easiest way to do conditionals
22:00:10 <AnMaster> ais523, you went for softfloat?
22:00:21 <ais523> wait, why are you even asking that question?
22:00:37 <ais523> AnMaster: if it is not utterly obvious why you'd use softfloat in a brainfuck-based simulated processor
22:00:41 <ais523> then what is wrong with you
22:00:48 <AnMaster> ais523, softfloat would be even slower wouldn't it than one that is optimised bf one, right?
22:01:16 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean, it would need to split across registers
22:01:23 <AnMaster> and what if they aren't next to each other?
22:01:30 <AnMaster> even if they were, would it help much?
22:01:50 <ais523> floating's going to be soft anyway
22:01:56 <ais523> and if you do write a good hard float library for BF
22:02:03 <ais523> publish it, it'd be useful even outside gcc-bf
22:02:23 <AnMaster> ais523, does a bf library even make sense
22:02:40 <ais523> you could use it #define-style
22:02:42 <AnMaster> I guess as a set of functions listed on a page
22:02:50 <ais523> or possibly do cleverer things, depending on what you were doing
22:03:12 <AnMaster> ais523, did you consider compiling to pebble first?
22:03:33 <ais523> no, there wouldn't be much of a point
22:03:58 <AnMaster> ((test x$1 = xrc || test x$1 = xcr || test x$1 = xcru) && shift && tar czvf $* ) || (test x$1 = xx && shift && tar xzvf $* ) || (echo Usage: bf-ar cr archive.a file.o [file.o [...]])
22:04:20 <ais523> void _exit (int rv) { (void) rv; goto *(void*)0; }
22:04:41 <ais523> possibly my favourite C function I've ever written
22:04:50 <AnMaster> that would go to start of program no?
22:04:57 <ais523> which starts at origin 1
22:05:26 <ais523> or possibly some other value, determined by the linker
22:05:26 <AnMaster> ais523, so lowest page is mapped?
22:05:42 <ais523> function pointers are just tags in gcc-bf
22:05:47 <ais523> they don't point to actual memory locations
22:05:53 <ais523> they're just used to identify which function you mea
22:05:53 <AnMaster> ais523, same or separate code and data pointers?
22:06:05 <ais523> code and data pointers are in separate ranges of values
22:06:13 <ais523> in fact, code, stack, and heap are
22:06:26 <ais523> they're distinguished by the first byte, which is 0x0, 0x1, or 0x2
22:06:37 <AnMaster> ais523, shouldn't you provide a limits.h?
22:06:39 <ais523> the less significant bytes are the value
22:06:44 <ais523> also, limits.h is in newlib, I think
22:07:07 <AnMaster> ais523, well it is target-specific
22:07:27 <AnMaster> bf-old.c bf-old.h bf-old.md bf-protos.h bf.c bf.h bf.md notesfromesolang.txt t-bf
22:07:41 <ais523> um, you don't want to know
22:07:49 <ais523> well, bf-old you can ignore
22:07:52 <ais523> that's before I created the darcs repo
22:07:59 <ais523> t-bf is to do with the build system
22:08:07 <ais523> and is a timestamp file (no content but the modification time)
22:08:08 <AnMaster> # Generate floating point emulation libraries.
22:08:34 <ais523> t-bf is a makefile fragment
22:08:40 <ais523> that gets dynamically injected into gcc's makefiles
22:08:42 <ais523> there's one for every arch
22:08:45 <AnMaster> ais523, where are those .c files
22:08:47 <ais523> (sorry, I muddled it with something else)
22:09:00 <ais523> those are the standard single and double precision float emu libraries
22:09:47 <AnMaster> ais523, do you have any sort of todo list or roadmap or such?
22:10:00 <ais523> look for unimplemented bits in bf-ld
22:10:09 <ais523> the gcc side is finished, barring bugfixes
22:10:18 <AnMaster> and the bf-protos.h bf.c bf.h bf.md files?
22:10:21 <ais523> anyway: bf.h is a header file that describes the application binary interface
22:10:25 <ais523> bf.c is code generation
22:10:36 <ais523> and bf.md is hard to describe in a single line
22:10:47 <ais523> basically, it's code in a gcc-specific DSL
22:10:57 <ais523> which generates RTL, and compiles it to asm
22:11:06 <ais523> the RTL is modified by other bits of gcc after it's been generated, though
22:11:18 <ais523> bf-protos.h I can't remember, I'd have to look at it
22:11:19 <AnMaster> /* TODO: hook TARGET_ADDRESS_COST to give the optmizer some clues about how
22:11:19 <AnMaster> expensive various operations are. Possibly TARGET_RTX_COSTS too. */
22:11:29 <AnMaster> that depends on interpreter/compiler
22:11:35 <ais523> oh, it's just function prototypes
22:11:46 <ais523> which have to be in a separate file for a gcc-build-system-related reason I can't remembe
22:12:08 <ais523> AnMaster: well, on the ABI compiler, yes
22:12:19 <ais523> basically, it's telling it things like xor is slower than mov for setting things to 0
22:12:24 <ais523> which it can't guess without being told
22:13:08 <ais523> and you'd have to say where it was, too
22:13:25 <AnMaster> ais523, also what about mov reg->reg or mov mem->reg
22:13:35 <ais523> "mov.8 $0, %r4" is the actual syntax
22:13:58 <ais523> that isn't mov, as you can't do that in brainfuck
22:14:01 <ais523> instead, you'd use tadd
22:14:17 <AnMaster> ais523, unusual notation for it?
22:14:28 <ais523> tadd2.8 (%mark), %r4, %scratch
22:14:29 <ais523> tadd.8 %scratch, (%mark)
22:14:35 <ais523> and it isn't an unprecedented notation
22:14:37 <ais523> and it isn't an unprecedented notation
22:14:49 <ais523> anyway, that above there is an addition from a register to memory
22:15:11 <ais523> it's a move from memory to register
22:15:19 <ais523> first step: set $r4 to 0
22:15:24 <ais523> AnMaster: no, what I just pasted
22:15:27 <ais523> above in the conversation
22:15:39 <ais523> second step: add (%mark) to %r4 and %scratch
22:15:40 <AnMaster> ais523, does llvm use a similar .x thingy?
22:15:55 <ais523> third step: add %scratch to (%mark)
22:16:00 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know
22:16:10 <AnMaster> why is there a bf.h outside config-bf?
22:16:11 <ais523> but gcc's pretty flexible in asm notations, I imagine llvm is too
22:16:20 <ais523> for use by user programs
22:16:44 <ais523> also, note those are transfer-additions
22:16:49 <ais523> which set their first argument to 0
22:17:12 <ais523> that clear, transfer-add, transfer-add is the usual way to copy a value without destroying the original
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22:17:45 <ais523> (%mark) is special, btw
22:17:55 <ais523> the mark is a pointer, that marks a memory location on the heap or stack
22:18:03 <ais523> and you can use the place that pointer points to like a register
22:18:12 <ais523> it's the only way you can access memory in general
22:18:29 <AnMaster> ais523, how much memory does bfrle try to allocate
22:18:43 <ais523> what do you mean by that?
22:18:53 <AnMaster> klee: Executor.cpp:566: void klee::Executor::initializeGlobals(klee::ExecutionState&): Assertion `mo && "out of memory"' failed.
22:18:58 <AnMaster> when I try to run it under klee
22:19:06 <AnMaster> which handles cfunge file after dropping mmap
22:19:19 <AnMaster> ais523, llvm tool that symbolically executes all possible paths in the program
22:19:19 <ais523> oh, and it allocates just enough to hold the program
22:19:20 <oklofok> http://www.mikseri.net/artists/sortokausi.40541.php
22:19:44 <ais523> my guess is, it noticed that it was possible for it to allocate unlimited amounts of memory
22:19:52 <ais523> and as a result, tried
22:20:20 <AnMaster> ais523, as I didn't even mark any variable as symbolic yet
22:20:31 <AnMaster> you have to tell it what variables/what input is symbolic
22:20:37 <AnMaster> so it tries that when finding bugs
22:20:56 <AnMaster> or sometimes a specific variable directly in source
22:21:20 <AnMaster> without that it would just say "generated one test case, on one path"
22:21:25 <ais523> oh: #define TAPELENGTH 100663378
22:21:31 <ais523> that's what's happening
22:21:42 <ais523> I set the length of the tape to the area of the tape that gcc-bf can use
22:21:46 <AnMaster> ais523, that seems extremely long
22:22:30 <ais523> 96.000078201 MB, it seems
22:22:39 <ais523> gcc-bf can access 16 MB of tape and 16 MB of stack
22:23:00 <ais523> there are four bytes of bookkeeping for every byte of heap/stack
22:23:06 <ais523> I meant heap and stack
22:23:18 <ais523> every six bytes contains one heap, one stack, four bookkeeping
22:23:34 <ais523> and the tiny extra amount is registers
22:23:59 <ais523> as in, one byte of heap and stack need four bytes of bookkeeping between them
22:24:12 <ais523> they have one dedicated byte of bookkeeping each, and two between them, to be precise
22:24:15 <ais523> but that's an implementation detail
22:24:42 <AnMaster> ais523, how comes some are shared?
22:25:46 <ais523> every six bytes contains: one unused value (to keep locations a multiple of 6), mark pointer for the stack, stack data, stack/heap pointer, mark pointer for the heap, heap data
22:25:59 <ais523> where pointers are set to 1 if the pointer doesn't point there, or 0 otherwise
22:26:17 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the padding used by gcc-bf? none?
22:26:18 <ais523> there can be multiple frame pointers
22:26:27 <ais523> it would be a waste of space
22:26:54 <ais523> except for bitfields up to a multiple of 8 bits, but you don't use those if you want the program to run at all efficiently
22:27:04 <AnMaster> ais523, what are the sizes of char/short/int/long/long long/float/double/long double ?
22:27:26 <ais523> in octets, 1/2/4/4/8/4/8/8
22:27:49 <ais523> double and long double are the same, as are int and long
22:28:03 <ais523> because everyone seems to assume 32-bit int nowadays
22:28:16 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't bitfields be just turned into bitwise and/or?
22:28:17 <ais523> and I want as many existing programs as possible to compile unmodified
22:28:32 <ais523> I rather like my implementation of bitwise and and or
22:28:42 <ais523> it involves repeated multiplication by 128, IIRC
22:29:29 <AnMaster> ais523, idea for next project: gcc-intercal
22:29:47 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm likely to continue working on gcc-bf until at least such time as it can port C-INTERCAL to BF
22:30:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I doubt c-intercal will fit
22:30:28 <ais523> bear in mind that I grew up with floppy disk
22:30:32 <AnMaster> ais523, in 96 *inefficiently used* MB
22:30:44 <ais523> well, 16 MB stack, 16 MB heap, from the C program's point of view
22:31:03 <AnMaster> ais523, and cfunge would burst that for heap at least
22:31:18 <AnMaster> I doubt if cfunge ever uses more than 1 MB stack
22:31:21 <ais523> but it's trying to store a giant hash table
22:31:30 <AnMaster> ais523, giant static array too
22:31:40 <ais523> if you got rid of the static array, or made it relatively small
22:31:44 <AnMaster> ais523, but what sort of program uses 16MB *stack*?
22:31:52 <ais523> anything that recurses a lot
22:31:57 <ais523> or that declares large arrays on the stack
22:32:30 <AnMaster> ais523, will check cfunge stack and heap usage with massif tomorrow
22:32:53 <ais523> are you going to all this trouble just to port cfunge to brainfuck?
22:33:08 <ais523> I thought you'd gone mad for a moment
22:33:11 <ais523> well, madder than normal
22:33:19 <AnMaster> ais523, there is no way I will try to port cfunge to anything non-POSIX.
22:33:28 <AnMaster> it's just way way too much work
22:33:30 <ais523> gcc-bf is meant to be POSIX, eventually
22:33:39 <ais523> it has quite a bit of POSIX already, via newlib
22:33:43 <AnMaster> ais523, that day it might run cfunge *shrug*
22:33:53 <ais523> it's single-process, though
22:33:57 <ais523> if you call fork, you get EAGAIN
22:34:09 <AnMaster> ais523, and what about mmap()?
22:34:19 <ais523> that would actually be surprisingly easy
22:34:22 <ais523> given that the files are in memory anyway
22:34:36 <ais523> it would just be a wrapper around realloc
22:34:53 <AnMaster> ais523, how would a read only mmap be a wrapper around realloc?
22:35:07 <ais523> read only means undefined behaviour if you try to write, doesn't it?
22:35:11 <AnMaster> ais523, what about aio? I considered adding that to cfunge, just for the hell of it
22:35:27 <ais523> aio wouldn't work, for the same reason forking doesn't work
22:35:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think anything explicitly bans allowing people to write if they just requested read access
22:35:53 <ais523> AnMaster: I can't remember what that one does
22:36:13 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway you need to have a page size for mmap
22:36:15 <ais523> oh, poll would be rather degenerate
22:36:28 <ais523> no reason to make it anything else
22:36:43 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm sure that will break something
22:36:47 <ais523> given that you can map to more than one page, IIRC
22:37:02 <ais523> page break has to be 1, I think
22:37:10 <ais523> given that sbrk works on 1-byte granularity
22:37:27 <ais523> (the implementation of sbrk is also rather fun, but nowhere near as fun as that of exit)
22:37:30 <AnMaster> The two constants _SC_PAGESIZE and _SC_PAGE_SIZE may be defined to have the same value.
22:38:14 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah exactly the bit I referred to
22:38:24 <ais523> anyway, here's probably the confusingest bit from the implementation to sbrk: static void* brk = &__brkpos;
22:38:31 <ais523> that only works with gcc
22:38:33 <AnMaster> actually make that "go austin group"
22:38:43 <ais523> given that brkpos is defined as extern void __brkpos;
22:38:48 <ais523> OTOH, it only needs to work with gcc
22:40:16 <AnMaster> if nothing else to allow gcc bootstrap
22:41:06 <ais523> its entire method of operation wouldn't work
22:41:16 <ais523> given that pointers and ordinary integers look very similar in gcc-bf
22:41:41 <ais523> given that stack and heap memory always starts 0x01 or 0x02
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22:42:01 <ais523> the chance that an integer and a pointer clashed would be low enough that it probably would manage to actually collect something
22:42:47 <ais523> it's written entirely in C
22:43:05 <ais523> yes, except you can write bits of asm and they take precedence over it
22:43:22 <AnMaster> and not all arches has everything?
22:43:36 <AnMaster> you wouldn't need 64-bit division stuff there on x86-64
22:43:55 <ais523> this is why its makefile is generated by script, I think
22:43:59 <ais523> and therefore has to be patched by script
22:44:20 <ais523> one amusing fact: if you don't implement enough primitives to be able to implement all operations
22:44:24 <ais523> e.g. no multiplication at all
22:44:33 <ais523> then libgcc goes into an infinite recursive loop
22:44:37 <ais523> as it's compiled into calls to itself
22:45:33 <AnMaster> colordiff -Naur <(nm -D /lib32/libgcc_s.so.1 | grep ' T ' | cut -d' ' -f3- | sort -n) <(nm -D /lib64/libgcc_s.so.1 | grep ' T ' | cut -d' ' -f3- | sort -n)
22:46:29 <AnMaster> ais523, shouldn't it do multiplication by addition?
22:46:48 <ais523> beyond 8-bit, that's hilariously inefficient
22:47:01 <AnMaster> ais523, so it could do it in terms of the 8-bit
22:47:11 <ais523> in practice, it seems to screw up
22:47:24 <AnMaster> ais523, "<ais523> beyond 8-bit, that's hilariously inefficient" <-- hah isn't that what gcc-bf does?
22:47:28 <ais523> or at least, gcc's incapable of comprehending that a system's only multiplier can only handle 8-bit numbers
22:47:35 <ais523> AnMaster: gcc-bf is surprisingly efficient, on an RLE system
22:48:59 <AnMaster> I know of CPUs lacking integer division
22:49:07 <ais523> they may well be special-cased
22:49:19 <AnMaster> I doubt you would use C for it
22:49:22 <calamari_> AnMaster: probably not lacking a bit shift tho, right?
22:49:25 <ais523> are there any CPUs that /gcc targets/ that lack integer division?
22:49:31 <AnMaster> calamari_, I forgot. it was years ago
22:49:50 <AnMaster> it is an "embedded microcontroller" kind of thing
22:49:54 <calamari_> AnMaster: you can use that shift to do division..
22:50:17 <AnMaster> calamari_, think it had 12 bit address space or something
22:50:58 <AnMaster> calamari_, http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41190E.pdf
22:51:31 <calamari_> I finally started work on the bf interp for my wristwatch
22:53:05 <calamari_> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timex_Datalink#Timex_Datalink_USB
22:54:26 <calamari_> it should be able to fit about 200 bf instructions in ram
22:55:12 <calamari_> I considered 3 bit, but the overhead isn't worth it
22:55:36 <calamari_> and it only buys like 20 more instructions
22:58:18 <calamari_> it's a fun toy.. I once destabilized my watch running a program in my debugging app, and it took about 30 minutes before it finally reset, fortunately it did not beep
22:58:52 <ais523> how long would the tape be?
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22:59:43 <calamari_> ais523: whatever is left from the program memory plus 24 bytes
23:00:07 <ais523> you're not going to be able to run very big BF programs, then
23:00:32 <calamari_> no, but that's okay because I'm not going to want to enter big programs using the crown of a wristwatch
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23:01:20 <calamari_> and since it doesn't use ascii, programs would have to custom written for the watch
23:02:08 <calamari_> well that and only being able to display 14 characters on one screen
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02:56:22 <Sgeo> So, how is Square not the most completely idiotic thing ever conceived, exactly?
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02:57:51 <Sgeo> http://squareup.com/
02:57:59 <Sgeo> Well, I guess the receipts thing..
02:58:51 <coppro> Sgeo: It's brilliant. It's the smallest device I've ever seen that a criminal could use to steal card numbers
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06:28:17 <uorygl> Sgeo: well, that little square might emit encrypted data only decryptable by trusted software. It's not absolute security, of course.
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06:29:06 <uorygl> And I think it's not *that bad* if your credit card information is leaked to a bad guy.
06:29:23 <uorygl> So, let's see how common it ends up being, in practice, for people to steal information this way.
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13:04:18 <oklofok> what's your favorite number (modulo 7)?
13:06:29 <fizzie> What's your favourite colour (modulo three)?
13:06:45 <oklofok> that's a very weird question, fizzie.
13:07:03 <fizzie> I had trouble deciding between "modulo three" and "modulo green" there.
13:07:16 <Deewiant> If I take it as an RGBA quadruple and interpret it as a single 32-bit number modulo three, I get black
13:07:59 <oklofok> well i'd say black is my favorite color anyway, anything else needs the right hue to look nice
13:08:40 <oklofok> wait don't you also get invisible black?
13:10:16 <fizzie> Invisible colours are my favourite kind of colours.
13:10:46 <oklofok> you like letting other's choose
13:10:52 <Deewiant> If modulo green is modulo 0x00ff00ff, I get 0x004b384a which is some kind of semitransparent turquoise
13:14:46 <fizzie> #4b0082? That would give a non-transparent color.
13:14:54 <fizzie> And it looks a bit Deewianty maybe.
13:15:17 <oklofok> no i'm pretty sure Deewiant would want some red in there
13:15:31 <fizzie> That has 0x4b blobs of red.
13:15:42 <fizzie> By #4b0082 I mean 0x4b0082ff, of course.
13:16:00 <oklofok> yes, that sounds Deewianty
13:16:11 <fizzie> Yes, you measure them as blobs. #ffffff has 768 blobs; that's all you can fit in one pixel.
13:17:36 <oklofok> http://www.answers.com/topic/blob-visual-system
13:18:11 <Deewiant> Interblobs tell the difference between #ffffff and #ɟɟɟɟɟɟ
13:18:54 <oklofok> are those f's turned upside down or somethign?
13:19:36 <oklofok> what does it mean they are sensitive to orientation
13:20:01 <oklofok> like only light from a certain angle hits them
13:28:28 <Asztal> That seems unlikely, since they're in the visual cortex
13:28:28 <oklofok> oh lol i just read the relevant sentence :P
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15:10:44 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> If I take it as an RGBA quadruple and interpret it as a single 32-bit number modulo three, I get black <-- only 8 bits per channel? :(
15:11:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and you didn't specify the gamut
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15:13:11 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
15:13:38 <oerjan> sorry you went so fast i thought you were a fly
15:14:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, I liked the annotation this time
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16:02:08 <oerjan> there was a tragic accident involving cheddar, a moose and five ancient OSes
16:02:30 <oerjan> while ehird survived (barely), the cheddar did not.
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16:49:15 <ais523> Ubuntu developer's theory: the reason that my fscks keep getting stuck at 90% is that fsck isn't installed
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16:55:41 <ais523> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mountall/+bug/487744 (the person who said fsck wasn't installed reassigned the bug to mountall for some reason)
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18:11:03 <AnMaster> ais523, since when does ubuntu use first tire support staff
18:11:04 <ais523> as far as I can tell, that's a completely bogus comment from the developer
18:11:36 <AnMaster> ais523, did you try a different fsck version from a livecd?
18:11:47 <ais523> too busy with other things
18:12:34 <fizzie> The "first tire" typo immediately made me think of a Ubuntu supportperson balancing on a unicycle.
18:16:33 <fizzie> "Unibuntu -- it's only got one wheel group member." That's the motto.
18:17:54 <AnMaster> huh there is no wheel in /etc/groups on januty?
18:18:06 <ais523> there's an "admin" group
18:18:12 <ais523> which is the group of people allowed to sudo, which comes to much the same thing
18:18:23 <ais523> as root doesn't actually have a password, a wheel group would be kind-of pointless
18:18:23 <AnMaster> ais523, "wheel" is *traditional*
18:18:47 <ais523> AnMaster: GNU su doesn't support wheel, because Stallman thought it was unfair for people to be unable to get root if they guessed the root password
18:20:49 <AnMaster> ais523, also just do: chown root:wheel /bin/su && chmod 4710 /bin/su
18:20:59 <AnMaster> (unless I misremember mode needed for suid)
18:21:33 <AnMaster> ais523, that assumes the write/read perm is sane before
18:21:41 <AnMaster> also why allow other people to read it?
18:21:54 <AnMaster> you don't actually need +r for group/others for suid binaries
18:22:26 <AnMaster> ---s--x--x 2 root root 143400 Jun 17 17:52 /usr/bin/sudo
18:22:29 <ais523> but why not allow people to read it, given that GNU su binaries are easy enough to come by
18:22:46 <ais523> also, those perms look fine to me
18:22:57 <AnMaster> but still, that means owner can't read it?
18:23:35 <ais523> root can read anything
18:24:13 <AnMaster> ais523, btw for fsck, did you try running it manually at all?
18:24:31 <AnMaster> say, from init=/bin/busybox style of thing
18:28:36 <AnMaster> ais523, I think the person in question did not read the bug properly
18:28:50 <AnMaster> hopefully someone else will bounce it back to the right thing
18:29:32 <AnMaster> ais523, otherwise you can try to change distro of course. This sort of thing generally doesn't happen with gentoo for example
18:29:43 <AnMaster> actually, bug reports tends to be responded to quickly with gentoo
18:29:52 <AnMaster> not *fixed* quickly always of course
18:36:52 <AnMaster> ais523, what bug reporting tool btw?
18:37:00 * AnMaster wasn't aware such a thing existed
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19:05:29 <ais523> you give it a pid or the name of a package
19:05:34 <ais523> and it goes and attaches info to your bug report
19:11:12 <AnMaster> ais523, pid of a program no longer running?
19:11:21 <ais523> no, of one that's currently running
19:11:26 <ais523> if you get a segfault, you give the package name instead
19:11:33 <ais523> currently running's for more minor bugs
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20:42:53 <Gregor> http://ismarriagelegalintexas.com/
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21:01:27 <ais523> yay, finally got this FPGA evaluation board working
21:01:27 <ais523> it's running a simple Verilog program that counts up to 2^32 repeatedly
21:01:31 <ais523> showing the top four bits on LEDs
21:11:09 <AnMaster> ais523, how long does it take to count to 2^32?
21:11:39 <ais523> it was a few seconds to count to 2^28
21:11:46 <ais523> but I was running it from a relatively slow clock
21:12:02 <AnMaster> ais523, 2^32 is quite a bit bigger than 2^28 however
21:12:09 <ais523> no, just 16 times bigger
21:12:20 <AnMaster> ais523, well, I think that is quite a bit
21:12:35 <ais523> I mentioned 2^28 as it was the lowest observable number
21:12:45 <fizzie> Oh, it's more than a bit; something like four bits.
21:13:53 <AnMaster> ais523, shouldn't a hello world be more.... traditional?
21:13:55 <ais523> four bits, and I had them all connected to LEDs
21:14:08 <ais523> AnMaster: traditional hello-world equivalent in embedded systems is flashing one LED
21:14:11 <ais523> and I was flashing four of them
21:14:59 <AnMaster> ais523, what about using 7-(or more)-segment displays?
21:15:14 <fizzie> The TI DSP devboard had four leds too; we had those flashing in a KITT-from-Knight-Rider-y sort of pattern, with the sweep speed controllable with one of the four sliders we had in the "remote control" UI for the project.
21:15:20 <ais523> there's an LCD on the board, but not seven-segment-displays
21:15:29 <ais523> and there's about 12 LEDs on the board, but I only connected four of them
21:15:55 <ais523> yes, if the docs said which pins on the board it was connected to
21:16:33 <ais523> suspiciously bad; in fact, I'd say deliberately bad
21:16:41 <ais523> they want you to buy a complicated configuration program
21:16:51 <ais523> that does all the connection for you so you don't have to look at pinouts
21:17:06 <AnMaster> ais523, oh I see. Why not call them and ask for pinout instead and see what they say?
21:17:18 <ais523> because they don't accept queries from students
21:17:19 <AnMaster> oh and... how hard would it be to reverse engineer it?
21:17:22 <fizzie> II think we might've had some sort of "flicker the leds when it gets a parameter update from the remote control" feature, so in that sense the leds weren't completely useless.
21:17:27 <ais523> I actually thought of reverse-engineering
21:17:40 <AnMaster> ais523, talk to a non-student about this? teacher or whatever
21:17:44 <ais523> but it would be kind-of hard
21:18:12 <ais523> my professor's trying to find out the pinout at the moment, apparently
21:18:36 <AnMaster> ais523, why would it be hard? could something break?
21:18:51 <ais523> partly because there are thousands of pins, connected to all sorts of thigns
21:18:58 <ais523> and if you send output to an input pin, bad things happen
21:19:14 <AnMaster> ais523, the leds were documented?
21:19:50 <ais523> which is another reason I'm suspicious, btw
21:21:40 <fizzie> Hardware's like that; stick to software, and you'll never have to... uh, worry about... bad documentation... wait, I don't think that's actually true.
21:22:31 <fizzie> Well, at least with software usually you can have a backup if you make smoke come out of it when experimenting.
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21:55:18 <AnMaster> ais523, would reading on an output pin do bad stuff?
21:55:47 <ais523> mostly, you just get garbage
21:55:53 <AnMaster> that way you could try all inputs and see what ones are inputs (that you can trigger at least)
21:56:07 <AnMaster> (I guess two way communication channels wouldn't be found that way)
21:56:19 <AnMaster> (assuming the chip needs to trigger *first*)
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22:01:30 <AnMaster> ais523, why not use some other product instead?
22:01:42 <ais523> we're considering that
22:02:03 <AnMaster> ais523, any luck for the prof in finding the pinout?
22:02:03 <ais523> this one was donated to us free (suspicious in of itself), so we have it to hand
22:02:03 <ais523> AnMaster: I haven't heard anything
22:02:46 <AnMaster> ais523, how is donations to universities suspicious?
22:02:57 <ais523> in that it's clearly an advertising ploy
22:03:08 <ais523> to get us using their products when we leave, rather than a competitor's
22:03:12 <ais523> because we're more used to them
22:03:29 <ais523> if we can't get the peripherals working, though, it's possible that ploy will backfire :)
22:06:35 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I guess MSDNAA is the same basic idea?
22:08:10 <AnMaster> ais523, IMO MSDNAA backfires *badly*
22:08:26 <ais523> in what way? I have an MSDNAA subscription in theory but I've never used it
22:08:32 <ais523> or even asked for a password for it
22:08:54 <AnMaster> ais523, because I learnt that Windows 7 need like 7 GB hd space for a minimal clean install
22:09:13 <AnMaster> so I guess 32-bit is a bit less
22:09:38 <AnMaster> a 64-bit ubuntu install fits in much less and comes with way more useful programs
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22:10:13 <AnMaster> like, office suite, compiler, vector graphics editor, "better than paint" bitmap editor (gimp)
22:10:32 <ais523> apparently they're planning to remove GIMP from a default install (making it an installable package like most other programs)
22:10:39 <ais523> on the basis that it's rather more powerful than most people need
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22:10:57 <AnMaster> ais523, xp x64 needs around 2.5 GB iirc
22:11:00 <ais523> I have Kolourpaint installed as a better-than-paint image editor
22:11:19 <ais523> but it's KDE, and I'm not sure if there's a similarly-featured Gnome program
22:11:30 <ais523> kolourpaint is just paint with more features
22:11:55 <AnMaster> ais523, what about krita. It supports non-RGB, which gimp still doesn't
22:12:09 <AnMaster> however it lacks many of the useful photo editing features of gimp
22:12:22 <AnMaster> seems more intended for artists that draw stuff
22:12:39 <AnMaster> I keep imagining someone using a wacom pad or such with it
22:16:17 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and the downloader app sucks
22:16:32 <ais523> does it run under Linux?
22:16:38 <AnMaster> it uses CRC at the end it says, yet usually results in bad downloads
22:17:07 <AnMaster> ais523, wine said something about missing MSIE activex embedding galore thingy
22:17:29 <AnMaster> ais523, well I don't think the word "galore" was there
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22:18:37 <AnMaster> huh, the number 9 in minesweeper
22:18:56 * AnMaster suspects foul play or possibly a bug
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22:24:33 <AnMaster> ais523, night. I have an early day tomorrow
22:25:05 <AnMaster> (oh that was probably a Swedishism too)
22:25:15 <ais523> nope, same idiom's used in English
22:25:29 <ais523> something you've said there is subtly different from what we say here, but I'm not entirely sure what
22:25:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it may be "early morning" in Swedish
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23:11:02 <Oranjer> :O is just my greeting here, as I am almost always confused
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23:35:41 <quantumEd> brainfuck has 20x more users than D
23:35:46 <quantumEd> https://www.spoj.pl/ranks/languages/
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00:45:59 <SimonRC> 'SUP DAWG I HEARD YOU LIKE UPGRADES SO WE PUT AN UPGRADE IN YOUR X SO NOW YOU HAVE TO REBOOT BECAUSE THE PROTOCOL CHANGED BACKWARD-INCOMPATIBLY.
00:46:33 <SimonRC> my boss made a reference to Brainfuck a few days back
00:46:48 <SimonRC> he is kinda a techy type so it's not that ridiculous
00:47:04 <lament> oh so he wasn't talking about the sex act
00:49:02 * SimonRC hasn't heard of that one being done.
00:52:10 <lament> skullfuck is the more popular term
00:54:07 <SimonRC> I meant, being done, rather than being talked about
00:54:24 <lament> i imagine it's difficult to find a willing partner
01:17:36 <Asztal> lament: who said they had to be willing?
01:17:55 <Gregor> I think that the concept pretty much precludes willingness.
01:18:33 <Asztal> Maybe the people who let themselves be eaten would allow it
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02:51:11 <madbrain> just read about the halting problem... the proof of impossibility is so nasty :D
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03:02:03 <madbrain> well, basically they proved you can't solve the halting problem by writing a program that generates a paradox if you try to do that
03:03:03 <madbrain> if you can solve the halting problem, then you have a function solve_halting_problem(program)
03:03:20 <madbrain> but then you can write a program like this:
03:04:40 <madbrain> program p = { if solve_halting_program(p) true then loop_indefinitely(), else stop}
03:05:32 <madbrain> so in other words it uses the potential solution on itself, determines if it's halting, if it's halting then don't halt, if it's not halting then halt
03:06:44 <madbrain> but than that means your solve_halting_program() function cannot return either true or false for that particular program because then the program uses the solution to prove it false
03:12:04 <quantumEd> program := if halts(program) then loop else return
03:13:13 <quantumEd> program(p) := if halts(p) then loop else return
03:13:18 <quantumEd> and then you ask if halts(program(program))
03:16:30 <quantumEd> if my language was just if/then/else, return, CAR, CDR, etc.. then every program terminates -- now if you add the loop keyword, you can define 'program' but you should be able to define halts quite easily too
03:17:07 <quantumEd> (suppose the language only allowed well founded recursion)
03:18:33 <pikhq> quantumEd: ... "Well-founded recursion"?
03:18:49 <quantumEd> you are allowed to loop on smaller inputs than what you were given only
03:19:09 <quantumEd> so that every function (that's execution doesn't reach any "loop") terminates
03:19:28 <pikhq> And how do you intend to enforce such a restriction?
03:19:58 <quantumEd> doesn't matter really, you could do it syntactially or give the programmer the benefit of the doubt
03:20:35 <pikhq> ... And for that matter, what does "smaller inputs" mean?
03:21:00 <quantumEd> if the inpute was the program "if halts(program) then loop else return" then "loop" is smaller (because it is a subterm)
03:21:38 <pikhq> ... I'm more confused than I was previously.
03:23:18 <pikhq> And I also wonder what about that restricts the following: S(x,y,z) := z(y,z(y)); K(x,y) := x
03:25:33 <madbrain> you mean S(x,y,z) := x(z)(y(z))
03:25:53 <pikhq> ... Yes, yes I do.
03:27:07 <quantumEd> well that program passes the recursion scheme (since it doesn't use recursion) but it is an error because it's not well typed
03:28:05 <pikhq> Why isn't it well-typed?
03:28:36 <madbrain> I think the point is that you're basically imposing limitations that make the resulting language not turing complete
03:28:59 <quantumEd> yes it is not turing complete because of (1) the types (2) the allowed recursion scheme
03:29:53 <pikhq> quantumEd: What sort of ridiculous restriction on the type system *could you do* to make that not well-typed?
03:30:10 <pikhq> madbrain: My point is that that's bloody hard without making something that's completely and utterly useless.
03:30:23 <quantumEd> oh you are one of these pragmatists
03:30:56 <quantumEd> I'm writing up my idea now to see if I am right
03:31:34 <madbrain> the best languages are the ones that are turing complete with the least number of instructions/operators/etc... :D
03:31:34 <pikhq> quantumEd: By "useful", I mean "capable of non-trivial calculation".
03:31:53 <quantumEd> what sort of non trivial calculuation?
03:32:09 <quantumEd> (I'll try and work it in if possible)
03:32:57 <pikhq> Say, functions that do more than mere arithmetic?
03:33:21 <pikhq> Perhaps... Hmm. Matrix multiplication?
03:33:33 <pikhq> Nah, that's even a bit trivial.
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03:54:42 <quantumEd> it's really hard to make this language ...ars
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06:57:27 <quantumEd> <madbrain> program p = { if solve_halting_program(p) true then loop_indefinitely(), else stop}
06:57:39 <quantumEd> <madbrain> program p = { if solve_halting_program(p(p)) true then loop_indefinitely(), else stop}
07:01:00 <quantumEd> also I figured out a language (that has nontermination) which has solve_halting_program as a built in, but I couldn't find a language which it's possible to implement solve_halting_program in (yet?)
07:01:37 <quantumEd> I'm talking about non-trivial ones, so we can't have solve_halting_program(_) = true
07:06:23 <madbrain> don't know what to think or say
07:15:12 <quantumEd> madbrain, I have been thinking about this a lot
07:16:21 <madbrain> dunno, I just looked up a website about the halting problem proof and went "that is neat"
07:18:17 <quantumEd> so you don't really want to think about it beyond that I guess
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07:54:11 <quantumEd> "The halting problem describes why computers can't easily avoid crashing, or rather, why they can't predict when they are about to crash and ..." BULLSHIT!
07:55:24 <quantumEd> madbrain was talking about halting problem and got me interested but he's to busy/smart/clever to talk to me about it
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08:08:31 <pikhq> quantumEd: BTW, the halting problem is actually solvable for commonly available computers. (theoretically, not practically)
08:09:05 <bsmntbombdood> because commonly available computers have finite memory, etc
08:09:07 <pikhq> (hooray, not actually having Turing machines)
08:11:14 <bsmntbombdood> it takes something like 2**n memory though on a von neumann with n bits of ram
08:12:20 <quantumEd> if you get simply typed lambda calculus and add booleans (and if) and omega (some diverging term), you can also add a halts function (but not implement it in this language, it has to be implemented in the interpreter)
08:16:11 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Sounds about right.
08:16:29 <quantumEd> I thought about adding (typed) codes for terms of the language and recursion operators for them, but there's bubbles that don't go away so it doesn't seem to work. maybe something first order would work (yuo can only have base types on the left of an arrow)
08:17:17 <quantumEd> you would have to end up with a language that can express its own halting predicate but not the liar program
08:17:47 <quantumEd> there's nothing about the liar program afaict that actually has anything to do with turing completenss
08:29:29 <quantumEd> am I right ? wrong ? just totally trivial observation ??
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12:45:49 <ais523> Thought for the day: <Mason Wheeler> Oh, definitely. C++ may not be the worst programming language ever created, but without a doubt it's the worst ever to be taken seriously.
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15:26:51 <oerjan> <bsmntbombdood> it takes something like 2**n memory though on a von neumann with n bits of ram
15:27:26 <oerjan> no, you only need a slight amount of extra memory. what you need is 2**n _time_ however
15:29:02 <oerjan> (double memory or so to do a step count, i think)
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15:33:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is this operation that takes 2**n timer?
15:33:42 <oerjan> halting check for a finite machine
15:34:03 <oerjan> (by some other machine)
15:34:54 <oerjan> 2**n is the maximum amount of steps before it starts repeating itself
15:36:22 * AnMaster wonders how to get field width correct for printf() when using utf-8. Basically stuff like %10s checks bytes
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15:45:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: %10R in Plan 9 C, "give up" otherwise.
15:46:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, wprintf() and setlocale(LC_CTYPE, "")
15:46:28 <AnMaster> of course now I have to deal with wchar_t instead
15:47:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, issue: this code is supposed to be portable C89 though
15:47:15 <AnMaster> and possibly even work on windows (ugh)
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15:48:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: Give up.
15:49:34 <pikhq> Only C99 possesses functioning UTF-8 support.
15:49:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, maybe a C89/C99 polygot?
15:49:58 <AnMaster> still it breaks char constants
15:50:00 <pikhq> But, then, they invented UTF-8.
15:50:39 <AnMaster> there is no way I can use the preprocessor to add/get rid of it I think
15:50:46 <AnMaster> well, I can't think of one at least
15:51:24 <pikhq> It's impossible with the C preprocessor.
16:02:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: D&D expanded strip >_<
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16:30:07 * AnMaster is unable to get wide char ncurses working
16:30:35 <AnMaster> it just outputs *nothing*. It blanks the screen to put it in that cursor addressing mode (as expected) but then nothing else works (not expected)
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17:37:44 <oerjan> the same thing we do every day poiuy_qwert
17:38:19 <oerjan> i can neither confirm nor deny that
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18:16:15 <FireFly> poiuy_qwert, it must be a bit annoying to write your nick every time you login somewhere?
18:17:16 <FireFly> Well, I see the pattern of course, but I've never liked writing qwerty on qwerty, I think it's easier to write a word where the keys are evenly distributed between the hands and so on
18:18:23 <poiuy_qwert> well i just slide my finger along the buttons, so its almost like only pressing 3 keys, p... _ q...
18:18:41 <oklofok> or you could use a 10 finger approach
18:18:44 * oerjan tries that and it just feels _wrong_
18:20:18 <FireFly> oh, right, I forgot I'm not using Qwerty
18:20:31 <FireFly> I just have the physical keys setup like that
18:50:11 <bsmntbombdood> so you don't need to check for repeating states at all
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20:18:31 <AnMaster> <poiuy_qwert> well i just slide my finger along the buttons, so its almost like only pressing 3 keys, p... _ q... <-- you have a laptop or possibly a flat desktop keyboard I presume?
20:18:53 <AnMaster> there is no way sliding works well on anything like a classical PC keyboard
20:19:38 <poiuy_qwert> I have a MacBook pro, which is one of the less easy keyboards to slide along, but i've only seen like 1 keyboard in person that couldn't do it effectively
20:19:59 <AnMaster> poiuy_qwert, I was thinking along the lines of "model m"
20:20:23 <poiuy_qwert> I don't know what that is, gotta google it :P
20:20:53 <poiuy_qwert> ah yes those ones. who has those anymore? ;P
20:20:55 <AnMaster> poiuy_qwert, think "clicky keyboard"
20:21:12 <AnMaster> poiuy_qwert, well I have something similar but not clicky. Membrane sadly
20:21:27 <AnMaster> still it is impossible to slide on it
20:21:56 <poiuy_qwert> i see, well i still dont even find it bad to type my name, but thats probably because i'm more of a two finger typer
20:22:02 <AnMaster> well not that type of membrane
20:22:36 <AnMaster> oh yes, "dome switch" is the real name
20:23:29 * AnMaster use four on each hand usually. Sometimes all
20:23:56 <AnMaster> poiuy_qwert, next I guess you are going to say you aren't touch typing!
20:23:56 <FireFly> Four on each hand, thumbs for space
20:24:07 <FireFly> Thumbs for other stuff is impossible :P
20:24:12 <AnMaster> FireFly, well yes I included "thumb for space" with those four
20:24:18 <poiuy_qwert> well its not really two fingers, i just use my index fingers A LOT
20:24:35 <FireFly> Well, I've started to touch type since I switched over to Svorak
20:24:49 <FireFly> I forced myself to learning it at the same time, when I was anyway relearning it from scratch
20:25:05 <FireFly> poiuy_qwert, wikipedia it, it's some "rules" for which fingers to use for which buttons
20:25:43 <FireFly> It's actually just columns.. the index fingers are for six letter keys each, the rest are for three each
20:26:20 <AnMaster> but I meant it in the sense of not having to look at the keyboard to type
20:26:35 <FireFly> Well, I've done that a long time anyway
20:26:36 <poiuy_qwert> isn't it the one where they tell you to start with your fingers all position on a,s,d,f,space space,j,k,l,;?
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20:27:01 <AnMaster> well, not really, not when using emacs
20:27:07 <poiuy_qwert> yeah, i do it somewhat, but i find it easier to just go with the flow
20:27:11 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_typing <-- that image there tells most of it (about the layout related stuff, that is)
20:27:39 <AnMaster> FireFly, they should stop using slanted rows IMO
20:27:42 <FireFly> I usually stay with my fingers at aoeu htns (the dvorak home row), much more than I did when I used Qwerty
20:27:49 <FireFly> BeholdMyGlory agrees with you, AnMaster
20:28:32 <FireFly> Slanted rows would be really, really strange
20:28:52 <AnMaster> FireFly, s/strange/so ergonomic you can charge the double price/
20:29:16 <AnMaster> but seriously I think a split keyboard would be really nice
20:29:20 <BeholdMyGlory> AnMaster: You mean something like http://www.ergoff.se/produkter/ez_reach ?
20:29:50 <AnMaster> well maybe. I think that key placement looks strange
20:30:21 <AnMaster> BeholdMyGlory, I was considering qwerty or dvorak style but not slanted columns.
20:30:32 <AnMaster> or if slanted, slanted symetrically
20:34:14 * AnMaster wants an model m terminal keyboard
20:34:20 <AnMaster> why? Just because it looks so impressive
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21:22:52 <oklofok> ais523: chebyshev's inequality is actually one of my this week's homework problems :D
21:23:14 <oklofok> or actually even if you don't
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22:24:23 <AnMaster> garlic is one of the most important, nay fundamental, components of a well balanced and well designed meal
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22:27:03 <fizzie`> Hey, there after my nickname.
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22:27:13 <fizzie`> s/ere/ere's some fly droppings/
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22:28:58 <AnMaster> when switching client/servers of synergy
22:29:22 <AnMaster> laptop speed is fine, desktop speed is too fast
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23:44:26 <oklofok> ais523: also the proof is a one-liner
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23:57:08 <poiuy_qwert> has anyone ever made an IRC bot written in an esoteric language?
00:04:30 <fizzie> There's fungot, he's written in Funge-98.
00:04:31 <fungot> fizzie: i've been into c++ quite fnord, by state fnord?
00:04:40 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
00:05:41 <fizzie> You could count him doubly or triply esoteric, since in addition to the implementation language, he interprets Brainfuck and Underload too.
00:07:25 <lament> C++ is pretty esoteric
00:10:32 <poiuy_qwert> i think my goal is to make an IRC bot in an esoteric language
00:15:22 <oklofok> well have a nice afternoon with that :)
00:21:30 <SimonRC> they have made openoffice impossible to install
00:21:57 <SimonRC> I tried uninstalling it to fix some weird dependancy things
00:22:01 <SimonRC> and now I can't re-install it
00:24:20 <SimonRC> "mysql-common 5.1.37-2" conflicts with...
00:24:34 <SimonRC> I wonder how I get aptitude to ignore this fact
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02:42:46 <SimonRC> (the solution was wget and dpkg -i for 2 of the packages, BTW)
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06:23:58 <Gregor> (01:31:40 AM) <>: I don't know if its more messed up that its trying to compile Python.h or that it is trying to compiler Python.h
06:24:09 <Gregor> (01:31:11 AM) <>: SystemError: Cannot compiler 'Python.h'.
06:24:48 <oerjan> cannot parser sentence
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18:50:30 <ehird> I have devised a disturbingly crazy language.
18:50:38 <ehird> Well, rather, prototype-language.
18:51:20 <ehird> It gives you a false sense of normality, then piles the WTF on you. It's not an esolang, but only because it's too dastardly for that.
18:54:39 <ehird> augur: this is relevant to you, as it's sort of dependently typed
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19:04:59 <ehird> http://pastie.org/728558.txt?key=u4gd8tswifanismyu9dusg yes, I know the syntax is fugly
19:05:50 <ehird> http://pastie.org/728561.txt?key=niy1z20jplxlhak9uy8ya just realised i don't need the dots
19:07:38 <augur> oh tell me about a prototype language :D
19:07:44 <ehird> prototype as in unformed
19:07:50 <ehird> not as in prototypical, though it is sort of that
19:07:54 <ehird> more composition-based, though
19:08:06 <ehird> it has dependent types
19:08:17 <ehird> there is no type/variable namespace dichotomy
19:08:25 <ehird> and no compile/runtime variable existence dichotomy
19:08:39 <ehird> so types exist in the single namespace, at compile time and at run time, simple as
19:08:43 <ehird> anyway, http://pastie.org/728561.txt?key=niy1z20jplxlhak9uy8ya is the hideous abomination in question
19:08:53 <ehird> it shows off one or two off the "unique" features
19:09:02 <ehird> note that that's incomplete see e.g. thee comment about *
19:09:05 <ehird> and the syntax is very first-draft
19:10:32 <ehird> s/ret contents/ret elems/
19:10:51 <ehird> http://pastie.org/728566.txt?key=gv9hd8rlldampcr5j0r3og
19:10:59 <ehird> look at all the mistakes i'm making, i need to sleep :)
19:11:05 <ehird> oh darn, another one
19:11:32 <ehird> augur: http://pastie.org/728567.txt?key=dosixl4rjiqvmdqaefrna this, finally, should have no dumb mistakes
19:13:01 <ehird> the interesting elements there are rather subtle, and fuck my life, i just found another error
19:13:24 <ehird> http://pastie.org/728571.txt?key=zl2af7lovf0knbe3avpw
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19:51:47 <Sgeo> My computer problems:
19:51:48 <Sgeo> http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/topic276368.html
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07:05:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, remind me what it was about
07:06:23 <oerjan> president allosaurus agreed the world wasn't a strange place
07:08:29 <oerjan> darn i can only find 27 ninjas
07:09:41 <AnMaster> ... I understood that... I was just continuing the joke
07:11:13 <oerjan> with AnMaster you never know whether there is a *WHOOSH* or not. just like ninjas.
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07:54:40 <ehird> Close encounters of the Hird kind.
07:55:13 <ehird> 00:21:17 <Gracenotes> Stony Brook O_O
07:55:13 <ehird> 00:21:20 <augur> oh right
07:55:13 <ehird> 00:21:29 <augur> you're a cunt, now i remember
07:55:13 <ehird> excuse me, don't you go there too
07:56:58 <ehird> 05:46:33 <AnMaster> Asztal, my family name is of that type for example. But with a bit unusual spelling
07:56:58 <ehird> norlander ~= north land/country?
07:57:21 <ehird> 05:50:23 <puzzlet> "KuraMoto" literally means storage-basis for example
07:57:21 <ehird> Good name for a file hosting company.
07:57:35 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, north = nord/norr and land/country = land
07:57:45 <AnMaster> so well, yeah spelling was changed somewhat
07:57:56 <ehird> Swedish is boring because you can mostly just pretend it's mangled English and figure out a lot :)
07:58:01 <ehird> German even moreso
07:58:19 <ehird> then again I guess that's all languages that English raped
07:59:09 <ehird> it's nice to have such a whore of a native language, though, for that utility :D
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08:00:17 <ehird> 07:02:25 <AnMaster> btw what is 1/INFINITY in double floating point?
08:00:17 <ehird> 07:02:44 <AnMaster> Assuming IEC 60559 conformance of course
08:00:17 <ehird> Prelude> 1 / (1/0) :: Double
08:00:35 <ehird> "I AM SHOCKED AT YOUR INTENT"
08:00:48 <ehird> ghci is pretty strict with its ieee floating point i believe
08:01:53 <ehird> btw, just because i explained google's new home page thing that doesn't mean i agree with it
08:02:01 <ehird> i, too, find it irritating
08:02:35 <ehird> [[Starting this week, when we have high confidence that your query was misspelled, we go a step further than asking "Did you mean..." by automatically showing results for the corrected query, saving you a click. In case we did misinterpret the query, there will be a link at the top of the results to undo the auto-correction. So, the next time I'm visiting South Florida and accidentally search for [maimi restaurants], it's reassuring to know I'll quickly go
08:02:35 <ehird> straight to the results for what I really meant: Miami restaurants.]]
08:06:03 <ehird> no, they showed a preview of the results
08:06:10 <ehird> this way, if they have a high confidence of an error
08:06:16 <ehird> they show only the fixed results
08:06:18 <ehird> with an option to undo
08:06:24 <ehird> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7ZYqYi4xigk/Sxb_MsMIxyI/AAAAAAAAFC0/IqU_3tGQCUU/s1600-h/barcode_mockup_fade.gif ;; i have to admit though, this is hot
08:07:04 <oerjan> and i was _already_ finding google's tendency to second-guess me occasionally annoying :(
08:07:34 <ehird> Stop whining and use grep query /the/internet.
08:07:43 <ehird> Google is clever; its suggestions are usually good.
08:09:14 <ehird> "Yahoo! Selects Google as Search Engine Provider" —2000 (http://www.google.com/corporate/timeline/images/photos/XBD_HP_20000711.png)
08:09:29 <ehird> "Yahoo! Selects Yahoo! as Search Engine Provider" —?
08:09:33 <ehird> "Yahoo! Selects Bing as Search Engine Provider" —2009
08:22:18 <ehird> 07:15:06 <asiekierka> 1/inf == 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...............1
08:22:18 <ehird> 07:15:10 <asiekierka> i guess
08:22:18 <ehird> 07:15:14 <asiekierka> the dots represent infinite 0's
08:22:18 <ehird> You fail at mathematics forever.
08:22:44 <ehird> 07:17:42 <asiekierka> 0.999999999999.................. rounds to 1!
08:23:32 <ehird> 07:22:05 <AnMaster> 0.33333... given that ... is "continue forever" is *exactly* 1/3. Multiplying it with 3 will *not* yield 0.999..., but exactly 1
08:23:33 <Deewiant> In general when somebody that young fails to understand something I don't think it's fair to say "forever", it's quite likely they'll understand it some time in the future
08:23:41 <ehird> 0.333.... * 3 = 0.999... = 1
08:24:06 <ehird> 0.333... * 3 does very well equal 0.999...
08:24:11 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm allowed to memeify.
08:24:27 <Deewiant> Is the word "forever" a meme now?
08:24:49 <oerjan> you fail memes forever
08:25:20 <ehird> Deewiant: "you fail X forever" is a meme
08:25:41 <ehird> 07:39:49 <AnMaster> otherwise casting to (bool) should make it well defined
08:25:41 <ehird> 07:40:16 <oerjan> there is a bool type?
08:25:42 <ehird> 07:40:34 <AnMaster> in C99 yes
08:25:42 <ehird> 07:40:36 <AnMaster> in C89 no
08:25:42 <ehird> Incorrect; there is a _Bool type. There is also <stdbool.h>, which contains `#define bool _Bool`.
08:26:16 <ehird> 07:57:53 <ais523_> <strider24> To me Wave is an experiment by Google to see how long they can hold the attention of people with a product that makes no sense.
08:26:16 <ehird> 07:57:56 <ais523_> Discuss.
08:26:16 <ehird> I think it's accidentally that
08:26:32 <ehird> they came up with some reasonable ideas, built it, and then realised that is the only way for it to survive
08:26:41 <oerjan> they accidentally the sense
08:30:24 <ehird> 09:05:53 <AnMaster> what about three "that" then?
08:30:24 <ehird> That that that's property, that's property.
08:30:31 <ehird> I guess that's isn't really that.
08:31:05 <ehird> 09:09:28 <AnMaster> oklofok, what about: "using that that that construct outside contrived examples is really irritating"?
08:31:05 <ehird> that that is perfectly proper English. as is had had.
08:31:15 <ehird> "He had had that that sucks before, but this time was different."
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08:33:05 <ehird> 09:52:07 <asiekierka> where can i find any source code for BSD dc
08:33:05 <ehird> http://freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/
08:33:39 <ehird> 10:10:38 <ais523> happy australian mailman reminders day!
08:33:39 <ehird> *Australian Mailman Mailing List Reminders Day
08:34:06 <ehird> 10:14:50 <ais523> this is your last day of being a teenager, ever
08:34:07 <ehird> i don't think being 19 is actually possible
08:34:11 <ehird> when do you ever hear of someone being 19
08:34:16 <ehird> everyone is just in a void while they are 19
08:34:45 <ehird> 10:20:03 <yiyus> asiekierka: if you want to port a light dc, maybe you have more luck with p9p version
08:35:03 <Asztal> I don't remember being 19, so it must be a lie
08:35:19 <ehird> 10:20:44 <asiekierka> i think this one may roughly be related to the unix v7 one
08:35:20 <ehird> 10:21:02 <asiekierka> yup
08:35:20 <ehird> 10:21:16 <asiekierka> it is a port of (probably a bit newer) the version from unix v7
08:35:20 <ehird> It's a port of Plan 9's dc to POSIX with Plan 9 libraries.
08:35:33 <ehird> Plan 9's dc was probably derived from Tenth Edition Unix, being its official successor.
08:35:41 <oerjan> i most certainly remember being 19. possibly the best life in my year so far.
08:36:23 <ehird> oerjan: you'd be happier if you didn't spend all your time mentioning how gloomy you are
08:36:28 <AnMaster> <ehird> that that is perfectly proper English. as is had had. <-- yes, but still takes more work to parse than average.
08:36:59 <ehird> 10:23:38 <oklofok> girls are always like uhh big day let's cuddle
08:36:59 <ehird> 10:24:04 <AnMaster> oklofok, anything wrong with that?
08:37:00 <ehird> 10:24:49 <oklofok> well it's against the tradition.
08:37:00 <ehird> oklofok representin'
08:37:02 <oerjan> i _don't_ remember spending all my time mentioning how gloomy i am, however
08:37:38 <ehird> 10:48:35 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> line 814
08:37:38 <ehird> 10:48:35 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> Blk* div(Blk *ddivd, Blk *ddivr)
08:37:38 <ehird> 10:48:35 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> 3 "variable identifier expected"
08:37:39 <ehird> 10:48:35 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> and 2 "undefined symbol:" one for 'ddivd' and one for 'ddivr'
08:38:15 <ehird> 12:21:47 <AnMaster> just write a new backend for llvm, and some system specific header files and you are done
08:38:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't say llvm would run *on* it
08:38:35 <AnMaster> llvm is a perfectly good cross compiler
08:41:43 <ehird> I think I'm going to try to avoid the semicolon.
08:42:46 <AnMaster> ehird, in what place? programming? natural language?
08:43:03 <ehird> 08:29:46 <AnMaster> oklofok, how would this be handled if humanity started to colonise other planets? With possibly different lengths of day and year.
08:43:54 <ehird> 08:34:59 * AnMaster notes that writing (* 365 24 60 60) is much more compact than 365 * 24 * 60 * 60 (and skipping those spaces is ugly)
08:43:54 <ehird> It's not really that ugly.
08:44:28 <ehird> Anyway, 365<ENTER>24*60<ENTER>>60*.
08:44:29 <ehird> HP in your face? :P
08:44:41 <AnMaster> ehird, but if it wasn't ugly it wouldn't be sorter to write it in the former way
08:45:08 <AnMaster> long live circular argument or something
08:45:46 <ehird> 08:56:41 <oklofok> iirc he likes factor
08:45:46 <ehird> heh it's interesting
08:46:21 <ehird> 09:03:43 <ais523> anyway, I'm kind of worried
08:46:22 <ehird> 09:03:48 <ais523> there was a weird whirring sound for a while
08:46:22 <ehird> 09:03:52 <ais523> then a bang above me
08:46:22 <ehird> 09:03:56 <ais523> now there's the smell of burnt silicon
08:46:22 <ehird> literally seconds after complaining about the channel not being on-topic often
08:46:44 <ehird> 09:04:36 <oklofok> overheard :P so now we're confusing overload and overheard too!
08:47:21 <ehird> the problem with RPN for complex statements is that the operands' meaning depend on the operator unless we're talking about basic arithmetic
08:47:28 <ehird> so we have to keep a mental stack of uninterpreted operands
08:48:47 <ehird> 09:19:41 <quantumEd> don't make math too formal it takes the soul out of it
08:48:47 <ehird> That, and your name quantumEd, means you are now officially an "omg math is innate beauty it doesn't have to be formal, plus quantum effects=consciousness=UNIVERSE MATTER TRANSCEND BEAUTY" quack.
08:49:29 <ehird> 09:27:34 <quantumEd> oklofok just look at this picture, http://thinkzone.wlonk.com/MathGems/pics/pythagorean_theorem.gif -- this proves pythagoras without any "R" or "metric" or analytic geometry
08:49:30 <ehird> I hate visual proofs.
08:49:55 <ehird> 09:32:35 <oklofok> if you were traveling near speed of light, that proof wouldn't apply anymore
08:51:47 <ehird> 09:34:36 <quantumEd> I would say it is: Mathematics
08:51:47 <ehird> 09:34:41 <oklofok> it is not: mathematics
08:51:47 <ehird> 09:34:46 <oklofok> it has nothing to do with: mathematics
08:51:48 <ehird> 09:35:01 <quantumEd> maybe to you mathematics is deduction trees which a computer can say "VALID" or "INVALID"
08:51:48 <ehird> You are ignorant to the highest degree.
08:53:59 <ehird> 10:26:24 <oklofok> also why is it so hard to remember quantumEd is fax
08:54:48 <ehird> 10:27:09 <ais523> except to get statements from us that you could later use to destroy our political careers
08:54:49 <ehird> Raping horses with a stick is the only moral thing to do when confronted with a child molester.
08:54:52 <ehird> There goes my career!
08:55:27 <ehird> 10:37:14 <ais523> oklofok: you know, it's OK to unbelieve things you previously believed if someone points out errors in them
08:55:27 <ehird> Shut up, science-fascist!
08:56:50 <ehird> 09:36:10 <ais523> ok, consider a "times table" (a table where the element at (i,j) is i*j)
08:56:50 <ehird> THIS SOUNDS LIKE A JOB FOR J
09:04:06 <ehird> 13:37:28 <ais523> (short)x is in the same memory location as (long)x
09:04:06 <ehird> 13:37:43 <ais523> if you use big-endian, you have to write code for downcasting
09:04:06 <ehird> 13:37:58 <ais523> this is the main theoretical advantage for little-endian, as far as I know
09:04:07 <ehird> i am now a little-endian fan
09:06:06 <ehird> 13:45:12 <ais523> AnMaster: I/O, etc
09:06:07 <ehird> 13:45:17 <ais523> as in, you need inline ASM
09:06:07 <ehird> 13:45:19 <ais523> or something else similar
09:06:07 <ehird> unsigned char *out = 0xB0000;
09:06:49 <AnMaster> ehird, eh context of the I/O stuff
09:07:02 <AnMaster> as in, what were we discussing
09:13:14 <ehird> "A very large, 30-year study of just about everyone in Scandinavia shows no link between mobile phone use and brain tumours."
09:13:26 <ehird> Not that I expect it'll stop your irrationality about that matter.
09:13:26 <fizzie> Speaking of things not to care about, I have this N900 phone now.
09:13:40 <ehird> fizzie: Nice timing.
09:13:44 <ehird> Or did you see my message?
09:14:53 <fizzie> Well, sort-of. I did see it, but I was already writing what I wrote when I saw it.
09:15:27 <AnMaster> ehird, err, I didn't say I believed that. I only think I said I prefer being cautious
09:16:05 <ehird> The study provides overwhelming evidence that phones do fuck all as far as brain tumours go.
09:16:19 <ehird> AnMaster: I assume you pray 5 times a day to Mecca— to be cautious in case the Islamic god exists?
09:16:30 <ehird> (is it 5 or 7 times?)
09:16:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well sure. But at least some types of cancer can take quite some time to develop iirc. :P
09:16:57 <ehird> AnMaster: The worst kind of idiot is the idiot who tries to ignore his stupidity with a bad joke.
09:17:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't replying to the praying line...
09:17:23 <ehird> I never said that.
09:17:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: if mobile phones take 30 years to develop cancer then _absolutely_ no one has any evidence that it does
09:17:49 <oerjan> because it won't have _happened_ yet
09:18:01 <ehird> "Ha! I don't know anything about how science works, and will summarily ignore this study with a huge base of evidence, yet continue to believe in evolution, even though all we have for that is that same pesky *evidence*."
09:18:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think we can be quite safe in about 100 years or so. Becuase if it causes cancer over longer periods than that it can currently be safely assumed we will be killed by something else before instead.
09:19:28 <ehird> [[It is possible, Deltour's team wrote, that it takes longer than 10 years for tumours caused by mobile phones to turn up, that the tumours are too rare in this group to show a useful trend, or that there are trends but in subgroups too small to be measured in the study.
09:19:29 <ehird> It is just as possible that mobile phones do not cause brain tumours, they added.]]
09:19:55 <ehird> AnMaster: You should be just as cautious of radio.
09:19:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I read about this study in the newspaper today (or was it yesterday?)
09:20:02 <ehird> May I suggest moving to an area where you cannot receive radio?
09:20:05 <ehird> It's radiation, you know.
09:20:16 <ehird> You could say that everything's radiation. Sort of. I guess.
09:20:47 <AnMaster> ehird, lets avoid sun light (hey that one *does* cause cancer)
09:21:09 <ehird> How on earth can you make a joke based entirely around your foolishness and yet still go by it?
09:21:14 <ehird> It makes almost a negative amount of sense.
09:22:20 <AnMaster> um. Because you have been misunderstanding what my actual opinion on mobile phone radiation issues is?
09:22:22 <oerjan> fizzie: if it had been NTM-900, then it would really have been something not to care about
09:22:39 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm basing it entirely on what you've said today.
09:23:03 <ehird> That is: "I only think I said I prefer being cautious"
09:23:06 <AnMaster> ehird, do you have anything against: "better safe than sorry"
09:23:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, because you're not trying to avoid radio signals, are you?
09:23:23 <ehird> Or low levels of sunliight.
09:23:31 <oerjan> ehird, always interpreting any sentence in the way that most implies its source is an idiot
09:23:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well, there is also evidence that we need sunlight
09:23:46 <AnMaster> as in, too low = bad, too high = bad
09:23:52 <ehird> oerjan: I think you'll find he's interpreting it in the same way. Care to offer me whatever hackneyed interpretation you take?
09:24:10 <ehird> AnMaster: That's irrelevant. Anyway, you are still dodging the matter of radio signals.
09:24:21 <oerjan> ehird: i'm making a general statement here
09:24:34 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, the radiation from phones is non-ionizing.
09:24:55 <ehird> and in the range of tens of millions time weaker than it would take to be the weakest ionising sort.
09:25:03 <ehird> if i understand it correctly, which i think i do.
09:25:20 <ehird> and ionising radiation is what fucks up dna, and causes cancer.
09:25:43 <ehird> At room temperature, your DNA is rattled around by thermal fluctuations with an energy on the order of 0.026 eV. So you can absorb radiation (Infrared Light) on this order of energy without any problem other than possibly getting hot.
09:25:43 <ehird> If you want to start harming DNA, and thus helping cause cancer, you need to hit it with photons of 3 eV or more (ultraviolet light).
09:25:44 <ehird> Cell phone radiation, on the other hand, consists of photons with around 0.000001 eV of energy (~ 1 GHz - 5 GHz ). So getting bombarded with a few of these photons isn't going to have any effect.
09:25:54 <ehird> so i guess you avoid ... existitng
09:26:13 <ehird> what with all that over-80-times-more-powerful-than-phones radiation
09:35:47 <ehird> 18:58:51 <coppro> Sgeo: It's brilliant. It's the smallest device I've ever seen that a criminal could use to steal card numbers
09:35:47 <ehird> You mean... getting people to tell you their number?
09:35:52 <ehird> Store owners are EEEEEEEEEVIL
09:36:13 <ehird> Credit cards are insecure anyway.
09:36:22 <ehird> Everyone you've ever bought from could purchase things as you forever.
09:36:42 <oerjan> um they have expiration dates don't they?
09:37:41 <ehird> Well, forever=as long as you can use it.
09:37:45 <ehird> 07:58:11 <asiekierka> uuuuurgh
09:37:45 <ehird> 07:58:16 <asiekierka> what happened to ehird
09:37:46 <ehird> 08:02:08 <oerjan> there was a tragic accident involving cheddar, a moose and five ancient OSes
09:37:46 <ehird> 08:02:30 <oerjan> while ehird survived (barely), the cheddar did not.
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09:39:24 <ehird> 12:42:53 <Gregor> http://ismarriagelegalintexas.com/
09:39:25 <ehird> isnomiclegalintexas
09:42:14 <oerjan> isrunningwordstogetherlegalintexas
09:45:16 <ehird> 14:10:13 <AnMaster> like, office suite, compiler, vector graphics editor, "better than paint" bitmap editor (gimp)
09:45:17 <ehird> gimp isn't better than paint, just more powerful
09:46:00 <ehird> 14:10:57 <AnMaster> ais523, xp x64 needs around 2.5 GB iirc
09:46:00 <ehird> 14:11:00 <AnMaster> way more reasonable
09:46:01 <ehird> "The Oberon OS is available for several other hardware platforms, generally in no cost versions. It is typically extremely compact. Even with an Oberon compiler, assorted utilities including a web browser, TCP/IP networking, and a GUI, the entire package has been able to fit on a single 3.5" floppy disk."
09:46:17 <ehird> Okay okay so I'm raving a bit on the Oberon OS' design, shut up.
09:46:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't say it was good. Just more reasonable :P
09:46:29 <ehird> *OS's, fuck s-with-no-s-thingy
09:47:03 <ehird> eh i need to set up bitlbee again to connect to m*b*s
09:47:25 <AnMaster> ehird, so care to give a summary about what the hell was going on last week and few weeks before that?
09:47:37 <ehird> not really. also, it's not over yet.
09:47:47 <AnMaster> good luck with.... whatever it is
09:47:58 <ehird> you get another break from me next mon-fri ;p
09:48:15 <AnMaster> ehird, huh. What sort of strange thing may this be
09:49:16 <ehird> You can sit there guessing for a few years and it won't help.
09:50:01 <AnMaster> you just love having secrets right?
09:50:56 <ehird> Hey, feel free to fuck off.
09:55:54 <ehird> 16:52:10 <lament> skullfuck is the more popular term
09:55:55 <ehird> 16:54:07 <SimonRC> I meant, being done, rather than being talked about
09:55:55 <ehird> 16:54:24 <lament> i imagine it's difficult to find a willing partner
09:55:55 <ehird> 16:54:54 <SimonRC> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
09:55:55 <ehird> 17:17:36 <Asztal> lament: who said they had to be willing?
09:55:56 <ehird> Either we just jumped the shark, or the shark just jumped us.
09:55:57 <ehird> I'm not sure which.
09:56:21 <ehird> 19:06:44 <madbrain> but than that means your solve_halting_program() function cannot return either true or false for that particular program because then the program uses the solution to prove it false
09:56:52 <ehird> 19:18:33 <pikhq> quantumEd: ... "Well-founded recursion"?
09:56:52 <ehird> 19:18:49 <quantumEd> you are allowed to loop on smaller inputs than what you were given only
09:56:52 <ehird> 19:19:09 <quantumEd> so that every function (that's execution doesn't reach any "loop") terminates
09:56:52 <ehird> 19:19:28 <pikhq> And how do you intend to enforce such a restriction?
09:57:00 <ehird> 19:20:35 <pikhq> ... And for that matter, what does "smaller inputs" mean?
09:57:00 <ehird> It's well-defined.
09:57:06 <ehird> The resultant language is sub-TC, but not too bad.
09:57:21 <ehird> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2003
09:57:21 <ehird> http://www.jucs.org/jucs_10_7/total_functional_programming/jucs_10_07_0751_0768_turner.pdf
09:57:40 <ehird> 19:29:53 <pikhq> quantumEd: What sort of ridiculous restriction on the type system *could you do* to make that not well-typed?
09:57:46 <oerjan> ehird: we don't jump the shark. we tie it up and force it to do computation.
09:57:50 <ehird> 19:31:34 <pikhq> quantumEd: By "useful", I mean "capable of non-trivial calculation".
09:57:51 <ehird> It can do Ackermann.
10:00:58 <ehird> 12:20:53 <poiuy_qwert> ah yes those ones. who has those anymore? ;P
10:00:58 <ehird> higher-quality keys.
10:01:13 <ehird> although there are other mechanical switches apart from buckling spring
10:03:19 <ehird> 22:24:09 <Gregor> (01:31:11 AM) <>: SystemError: Cannot compiler 'Python.h'.
10:03:38 <ehird> Karnts kompiler Pygthon.h
10:03:43 <ehird> i suck at faux-german
10:04:43 <ehird> btw more people should go wtf at my sort-of-early-draft-thingy-work-in-progress-vaguely-formed-ideas dependently-typed-of-a-sort pastie.org/728571.txt?key=zl2af7lovf0knbe3avpw.
10:04:52 <ehird> http://pastie.org/728571.txt?key=zl2af7lovf0knbe3avpw for clickability
10:06:26 <ehird> erm another mistake?
10:07:01 <ehird> http://pastie.org/729217.txt?key=y9oq5kkybo7uhz8eyr9vq
10:07:18 <ehird> (s/List\.on/List.of/)
10:13:27 * ehird considers using haskell
10:13:49 <ehird> except for the effort of a haskell compiler, ugh
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11:04:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Context of that oh?
11:04:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> except for the effort of a haskell compiler, ugh
11:04:39 <ehird> Well, an Oberon-2 compiler is about 4,000 lines.
11:04:49 <ehird> A Haskell compiler is more like 50,000.
11:04:58 <ehird> I think GHC is about 100k lines of Haskell.
11:05:14 <ehird> Oberon-2 compiler would be more like 3,000 lines in Haskell, I guess.
11:05:37 <ehird> And the snippet I pasted should be quite simple to compile too.
11:05:50 <ehird> Anything that requires 33x the effort of an Oberon-2 compiler I probably won't want to do.
11:06:01 <ehird> Haskell could fit in quite nicely to the system, but eh.
11:06:22 <AnMaster> 100k lines feel so inelegant somehow
11:07:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: GHC does a *lot*.
11:09:22 <ehird> GHC is pig-ugly code
11:09:29 <ehird> there is stuff in there that makes its own monad infrastructure
11:09:36 <ehird> because monads didn't exist at the time
11:10:25 <pikhq> Oh, it still uses non-monadic Haskell?
11:12:24 <AnMaster> what did haskell use before monads?
11:14:43 <pikhq> Lists of actions for the IO monad, lists of other things otherwise.
11:16:00 <quantumEd> lisp had it right, CAR CDR and all that
11:16:18 <pikhq> Lisp had it wrong.
11:16:26 <pikhq> You can modify state.
11:17:50 <ehird> You forgot continuation IO.
11:17:56 <ehird> Anyway, it was for non-IO stuff.
11:17:59 <ehird> And this is just in some parts.
11:18:06 <ehird> Other parts use regular Prelude Monads.
11:23:13 <quantumEd> pikhq what was the argument against modifying state again?
11:31:44 <pikhq> quantumEd: There is no state. There is only lambda.
11:32:12 <pikhq> On a more serious note: a lack of state greatly aids reasoning about your program.
11:32:59 <ehird> Separation of Church and state.
11:33:05 <ehird> hyuk hyuk hyuk get it lambda calculus church?
11:33:08 <ehird> I am funny comedian
11:34:39 <ehird> pikhq: have you looked at the oberon os? the paradigm is like plan 9's acme (inspired it) ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Native/StdAlone/
11:34:54 <ehird> maybe you'll have better luck at getting it to run in a vm than me, I think it'd be interesting to have an oberon-os-but-haskell
11:35:18 <ehird> pikhq: the paradigm blends hypertext with code, it's a living-environment like smalltalk
11:35:26 <ehird> you can have code inline with documents
11:35:32 <ehird> and that's how you run commands and open things etc
11:35:51 <ehird> and everything is text, except it handles multimedia and formatting too
11:35:59 <ehird> but it's best at manipulating text/commands
11:36:15 <ehird> it divides the whole window into frames like acme, and they're as fluid as acme's frames
11:37:39 <ehird> i can boot it in qemu but the old-IDE disk driver spews a lot of crap and after installation+reboot, it just hangs trying to boot
11:37:59 <ehird> pikhq: the implications are really interesting — the installer is the same as its documentation
11:38:18 <ehird> it just has hyperlinked commands at certain points that you erase the arguments of and fill in the appropriate ones as explained, then middle-click the command name
11:39:11 <ehird> and e.g. partitioning is done by middle-clicking (iirc) Partition.Show, which brings up another frame, scrolling down to the partition-creation command, replacing <num> and <size> and middle-clicking it
11:39:20 <ehird> so you have a sort of composition of tools there, into one documentation-tool
11:40:00 <ehird> Researchers from Helsinki University of Technology (Finland), University of New South Wales (Australia), and University of Melbourne (Australia) have succeeded in building a working transistor, whose active region composes only of a single phosphorus atom in silicon. The results have just been published in Nano Letters.
11:40:05 <ehird> grats, fizzie + Deewiant :P
11:40:43 <ehird> your uni was part of it, the news article is on the tkk site
11:41:09 <ehird> Deewiant: moody :p
11:42:07 <oerjan> ehird: clearly Deewiant is just denying it so no one will notice their nanobots taking over the world
11:42:29 <ehird> hello i am grey goo
11:42:36 <ehird> (british gray goo)
11:42:46 <quantumEd> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D
11:45:24 <ehird> futura was designed by a german, I am the least surprised
11:49:40 <oklofok> oerjan: what did you do when you were 19?
11:50:26 <ehird> probably was unconscious for a whole year, knowing oerjan's fatalistic outlook
11:52:05 <ehird> pikhq: any luck with oberon or not interesteed?
11:52:54 <pikhq> ehird: 9~Bit busy trying to find keys.
11:53:09 <ehird> Oh, physical keys.
11:53:38 <oklofok> ehird: That, and your name quantumEd, means you are now officially an "omg math is innate beauty it doesn't have to be formal, plus quantum effects=consciousness=UNIVERSE MATTER TRANSCEND BEAUTY" quack. <<< THANK you
11:53:42 <ehird> As in door-openers.
11:53:54 <ehird> oklofok: no, thank YOU!
11:53:58 <ehird> this is a war on thanks
11:54:26 <ehird> I'd rather people were outright religious than quantum-mystical
11:54:37 <oklofok> but... i was agreeing with you, do i really have to fight you now?
11:54:39 <ehird> It's pathetic to see them denigrate the beauty of quantum mechanics in such a way
11:54:48 <ehird> oklofok: well, i don't know what to do otherwise :D
11:55:20 <oerjan> oklofok: i started university
11:56:02 <oerjan> also went to the math olympiad. although i'm not quite sure if that was before or after my birthday
11:56:35 <oklofok> quantumEd: you can read logs, basically i'm thanking ehird for being on my side about our debate
11:57:07 <oklofok> short one, but i count it as a great irc debate, because it didn't turn into a flamewar :)
11:57:11 <quantumEd> oklofok oh you're taking the piss out of me because I have a different philosophy to mathematics than you do
11:57:18 * AnMaster does something incredibly unlikely
11:57:40 <oklofok> taking the piss out of you?
11:57:48 <quantumEd> "omg math is innate beauty it doesn't have to be formal, plus quantum effects=consciousness=UNIVERSE MATTER TRANSCEND BEAUTY"
11:57:52 <oklofok> i'm just saying thanks for agreeing with me
11:58:13 <oklofok> err yeah, that's how ehird says he disagrees
11:58:23 <ehird> quantumEd: Your definition of "mathematics" is wrong.
11:58:27 <quantumEd> felt like you were making fun of me with it
11:58:27 <oklofok> "YOU'RE A FUCKING MORON GRRRR I HATE TYOU SO MUSCH!?!?1?1?"
11:58:49 <ehird> oklofok: I don't hate him, he's just a quack.
11:58:52 <oklofok> i'm not saying i completely agree with you being totally insane :P
11:59:19 <quantumEd> yeah not sure what you're getting at but it seems like you're taking the piss
11:59:21 <oklofok> i just like it when ehird agrees with me, because i don't like being the quack... well okay i suppose i do
12:00:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't really recommend spontaneously teleporting like that, what if you end up inside something?
12:00:17 <oklofok> ehird: yes, but i got the gist of it
12:00:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, no this is even stranger
12:00:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, using a floppy device!
12:00:43 <quantumEd> oklofok are you referring to something someone said in particular? because I probably don't know what it is if so
12:00:45 <ehird> AnMaster: you broke backwards compatibility?
12:01:43 <oklofok> quantumEd: wtf? i'm fucking pasting a line someone said and thanking them for agreeing with me, and you start saying i urinate, look in the fucking logs and stop being a bitch kay?
12:02:08 <quantumEd> oklofok: oh you didn't write this? "omg math is innate beauty it doesn't have to be formal, plus quantum effects=consciousness=UNIVERSE MATTER TRANSCEND BEAUTY"
12:02:16 <oerjan> if it ducks like a quack...
12:02:26 <oklofok> nono, i wrote that, then pasted it here and thanked myself
12:02:28 <ehird> quantumEd: no, I did.
12:02:32 <quantumEd> 00:48:47 <ehird> That, and your name quantumEd, means you are now officially an "omg math is innate beauty it doesn't have to be formal, plus quantum effects=consciousness=UNIVERSE MATTER TRANSCEND BEAUTY" quack.
12:02:40 <oklofok> anyway if you thought that was me, then i see why you'd be mad
12:02:48 <quantumEd> yeah I don't read a lot of what ehird writes
12:02:59 <ehird> My words are made of pure pain!
12:03:01 <quantumEd> oklofok um.. thanks for making me aware of this though
12:03:13 <ehird> Ooh, aware of it. I think I'm supposed to be scared now.
12:04:06 <oerjan> ehird: you've been quantum observed!
12:04:27 <oklofok> quantumEd: and "THANK you" wasn't exactly a sincere thanks, it was sort of sarcastic, because he sort of did what i definitely didn't want to do, and said something that usually leads to a flamewar on irc.
12:04:50 <oklofok> not sure why i'm explaining myself
12:04:54 <quantumEd> oklofok dunno it's pissing off me though, I left because ehird is such a cunt, now I can't even /ignore him
12:05:03 <oerjan> oklofok: you realize this has now officially turned into a flamewar anyhow?
12:05:54 <oklofok> oerjan: yes, but it was just because of misinterpretation, unlike most other flamewars!
12:06:07 <AnMaster> using the floppy drive in my desktop
12:06:19 <AnMaster> and I get IO error on my SATA drive
12:07:20 <AnMaster> ehird, any bright idea about that?
12:09:17 <quantumEd> nice to be reminded how pathetically antisocial and confrontation I am too by you folks
12:09:18 <mycroftiv> did someone say ELIZA? http://www.atariarchives.org/morebasicgames/showpage.php?page=58
12:09:36 <oklofok> quantumEd: anyway i find that sometimes people that are total cunts are the ones that really make you wonder whether you're as great a person as you could be; not saying ehird has made me change my ways, but a few other total cunts have made quite an impression! :P
12:10:02 <mycroftiv> wow, i was a full 24 hours back in the scrollback
12:10:15 <ehird> quantumEd: i wasn't personally attacking you, btw.
12:10:19 <quantumEd> oklofok I don't really follow, the deal was: don't read stuff from ehird - don't get into some horrible droning argument that nobody wants to hear
12:10:20 <ehird> just your beliefs about mathematics
12:10:40 <ehird> I try not to attack people (I usually mean "you're being an idiot" when I say "you're an idiot")
12:10:51 <oklofok> quantumEd: that was a general comment, it was not about this thing here
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12:12:37 <oklofok> in fact, a certain well-known #math cunt has changed my views about mathematics quite a lot
12:12:53 <adu> in a bad way?
12:13:10 <oklofok> views can only be changed in a good way
12:13:19 <oklofok> because it's i who changes them
12:13:27 <adu> don't take it personally, I'm a mathematician, and I love math, but I hate #math
12:13:36 <oklofok> well #math is full of cunts
12:13:39 <quantumEd> yeah #math is not really a good place
12:13:49 <oklofok> i like that, really makes you think what you say
12:14:08 <quantumEd> it's the kind of place where you don't want to turn on your brain because you're only not going to get insulted if you say the pattern match responses
12:14:24 <adu> oklofok: so how is your OK-language or whatever?
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12:14:56 <oklofok> adu: a simple version of oklotalk got implemented in python, but i've kinda gotten out of programming
12:15:18 <adu> I've gotten into it :)
12:15:36 <adu> I wrote an OpenType to JSON converter yesterday :)
12:15:41 <oklofok> i mean i still code like little snippets every now and then, but bigger i don't really have time for bigger programs
12:15:51 <quantumEd> hey ehird can I PM you or are you going to be a bitch about it?
12:16:06 <oklofok> i've usually just pm'd him without asking
12:16:12 <ehird> uh, i can't promise anything mr quantum ed
12:16:22 <ehird> oklofok: you mean oklotalk--?
12:16:23 <quantumEd> oklofok yeah but past experience tells me that it's probably best to point this out here first
12:16:37 <oklofok> i guess it's not really a simple version of oklotalk...
12:16:54 <ehird> quantumEd: uh, fine, pm me
12:17:01 <ehird> i won't be a bitch
12:17:32 <oklofok> i can assure everyone, that there will never be a moment in my life, or a person annoying enough, that i wouldn't love being pm'd by them
12:17:39 <adu> ehird: you're starting to sound like one
12:17:41 <oklofok> Gregor: *that* one you can quote
12:18:02 <adu> ehird: jk ;)
12:18:14 <oklofok> stop talking in ehird'd favorite languages
12:18:22 <adu> oklofok: ok
12:18:42 <oklofok> is o a language? i probably should know...
12:18:49 <oklofok> well okay obviously it's a language
12:18:58 <oklofok> adu: i'm sort of an o-philiac
12:19:09 <ehird> are not actually my favourite languages
12:19:15 <ehird> it was a joek, thou seest
12:19:29 <adu> I like "D" myself
12:19:39 <adu> all my favorite words start with d
12:20:01 <adu> like Dance, Drive, Dying
12:20:15 <adu> well maybe not dying
12:20:33 <adu> but i like driving, its fun
12:20:34 <oklofok> i'm sure you meant coloring things pretty
12:20:51 <ehird> dodger dastardly devouring dick
12:21:04 <oerjan> death, destiny and despair
12:22:27 <oklofok> my cousin asked me when i'm getting a car, i said i don't have a license, he was like when are you getting it? apparently it's not a choice
12:22:27 <adu> and one day, when I have 1,000 code monkeys on my payroll, I will write a bloated IDE/Editor/Browser/Neuralnet that will start with D too
12:22:27 <oklofok> i had this dream about driving a motorcycle, and have been wanting to try one since then, though, as i've mentioned here
12:22:27 <adu> Destiny! i like that one
12:22:42 <adu> Depressed...
12:23:07 <oerjan> delirium, dream, destruction and desire, to complete the set
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12:31:15 <ehird_> A defence of preemptive multitasking: http://sprunge.us/YNUJ
12:31:17 <ehird_> I felt like writing that.
12:31:49 <ehird_> quantumEd: you still haven't /msg'd me like you said
12:32:16 <mycroftiv> ehird_: there aren't people still preaching non-preemptive multitasking, surely?
12:32:39 <ehird_> there are (and visionary people too), lemme find an example
12:33:58 <ehird_> http://tunes.org/cliki/no-kernel.html, fourth paragraph onwardfs
12:34:06 <ehird_> that's pluggable task-switching, but still
12:34:19 <ehird_> i'm quite pleased with http://sprunge.us/YNUJ, it's concise and easy-to-read
12:34:29 <ehird_> i normally end up with too short/too long paragraphs/sentences
12:35:00 <ehird_> hmm the last newline should be before the though, "system." is a widow
12:36:22 <ehird_> http://sprunge.us/RMJD for typographic pedants
12:37:52 <ehird_> mycroftiv: also: http://tunes.org/cliki/preemption_20and_20cooperation.html "Now, TUNES is a secure system, and we can and shall use cooperation whenever possible (=almost always)"
12:37:58 <mycroftiv> mrph, that tunes link is interesting but doesnt seem to grapple with the fact that preemptive multitasking is good both for the abstraction/layering reason you give in your essay but also as a pragmatic protection against buggy applications, aka 99.99% of applications
12:37:58 <ehird_> that page is actually on that topic
12:38:02 <ehird_> probably a better resourcee
12:38:12 <ehird_> and it may rebut your points, I haven't read it yet
12:38:28 <ehird_> mycroftiv: I noted the protection aspect too in my ...work/page/article/note/essay/whatever
12:38:36 <ehird_> multitasking handles malicious or badly-written tasks much better,
12:38:36 <ehird_> too: you have a chance to terminate a task that tries to hog the
12:39:10 <ehird_> and before that: "Worse, the
12:39:12 <ehird_> programmers of a task are probably not experts in task-switching,
12:39:12 <ehird_> and so it's quite likely they'll get it wrong."
12:39:44 <ehird_> "Actually, threads are interrupted and signaled by more priviledged threads, but not preempted by equally-priviledged threads. (they might be preempted by foreign threads, to which they can't compare priviledge). This is why we rather call that interruptible cooperative threads instead of preemptible threads."
12:39:49 * ehird_ wonders what that means
12:40:22 <ehird_> mycroftiv: the thing with tunes is that fare is a very strong libertarian
12:40:25 <oklofok> it means a thread that's not running can ask to be run, if needed!
12:40:35 <ehird_> and so it makes quite a lot of compromises in the name of freedom and independence of tasks
12:41:03 <ehird_> (he views system design as an exercise in ethics)
12:42:24 <oklofok> who needs threads when you can just buy multiple computers
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12:42:40 <mycroftiv> well, i kind of feel that way also, but i guess my ethical baseline is that if the code is open, you can always change it - and the ability to change the code means sometimes you just hard code it and figure anyone who needs to will hack it and recompile
12:43:48 <mycroftiv> (i understand of course that tunes is fully self-modifying and reflexive so that particular example is a bit un-tunesish)
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12:44:06 <mycroftiv> although really having a compiler means you are still in a self modifying environment
12:44:26 <mycroftiv> thats part of why im not fully sold on some of ideas you seem committed to, because i think they dont necessarily change as much as you might suppose
12:44:56 <ehird> a lot of my ideas aren't big in themselves, but have a large effect on the system's architecture and philosohpy
12:48:07 <ehird> mycroftiv: do you know how the viewpoints research institute is funded?
12:48:33 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:48:39 <ehird> donations and company funding
12:49:07 <mycroftiv> were you hoping they sponsored a team of somali pirates?
12:49:32 <ais523> ehird: oh, I'm not sure if you knew this before, apologies if you did: there's a proposal in the UK government that gives Lord Mandelson a dictatorship
12:49:58 <ehird> i thought maybe doing work for companies, letting people use unused computing power for a cost, etc
12:50:13 <ehird> ais523: an absolute dictatorship?
12:51:06 <ais523> ehird: pretty much, it's a "Mandelson can modify this law by [method]" with ineffective safeguards
12:51:29 <ehird> I don't expect it would actually be abused in such a way, thankfully.
12:51:37 <ehird> I want to get off this island ASAP anyway, though...
12:51:54 <ais523> read it yourself if you like: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldbills/001/10001.13-19.html#j164
12:51:58 <oklofok> there's an extra room here
12:52:23 <ehird> oklofok: i'm not sure i could legally move in with you before i'm 16 :P
12:52:37 <ehird> ais523: can you shorten this perl -n oneliner?
12:52:38 <ehird> $n{$_}++}{print"$n{$_}\t$_"foreach keys%n
12:52:43 <ehird> i can't think of any fun horrid tricks
12:52:52 <AnMaster> ais523, hi there. I had an odd hardware issue you might be of help with:
12:53:03 <ais523> ugh, the braces aren't even balanced there, that's crasily abusive. I like it
12:53:11 <ais523> although, use "for" not "foreach", they're synonyms
12:53:14 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> using the floppy drive in my desktop <AnMaster> made X crash <AnMaster> and I get IO error on my SATA drive<AnMaster> when I try to read from the floppy
12:53:19 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> that's ridiculous <AnMaster> it's reproducible btw
12:53:28 <ehird> ais523: yeah, it's abusing the implicit while(<>){code} :)
12:53:36 <oklofok> ehird: probably not without parental permissionz
12:53:43 <AnMaster> ais523, if you have any idea whatsoever might be going on there?
12:54:02 <ehird> ais523: does say output a newline if the argument ends with one?
12:54:31 <ais523> probably, but it's perl6 anyway
12:54:37 <ais523> so the rest of the syntax there would be wrong
12:54:46 <ais523> ah, it's been backported?
12:54:54 <ehird> same time as the switch thing
12:55:11 <ehird> This is perl, v5.8.9 built for darwin-2level
12:55:21 <ais523> ooh, you could use an implicit hash->array cast
12:55:23 <ehird> ais523: could you test perl -e'say "fuck\n"' for me?
12:55:34 <ais523> if you didn't mind the output format being line\ncount\n
12:55:35 <ehird> or, well, any non-fuck string too
12:55:38 <ais523> rather than count\tline\n
12:55:42 <ehird> ais523: i do, that's why i didn't do it
12:55:57 <ehird> ais523: could I do
12:55:57 <ais523> String found where operator expected at -e line 1, near "say "test\n""
12:55:59 <ais523> (Do you need to predeclare say?)
12:56:01 <ehird> like php's variable variables
12:56:08 <ais523> looks like say isn't defined
12:56:42 <ais523> Perl v5.100.0 required (did you mean v5.10.0?)--this is only v5.10.0, stopped.
12:56:46 <ais523> well, I didn't expect that
12:56:50 <ehird> perl -M5.10.0 -e'...'
12:57:07 <ais523> I get two newlines if I do -M5.01, though
12:57:56 <ehird> and, is there an easy way to get all defined variables that aren't in perl?
12:58:01 <ais523> although, use strict may get annoyed if you do that
12:58:03 <ehird> as an array of names
12:58:20 <ehird> ${$_}++}{print"${$_}\t$_"for ???
12:58:24 <ais523> there's probably a hard way, though
12:58:58 <ehird> ugh, perldoc.perl.org is now ugly
13:00:33 <ehird> ais523: any silly tasks to do in perl? i'm trying to sharpen my art of the horror
13:00:44 <ehird> i'm trying to think of perl as a game. a ridiculous game.
13:01:06 <ais523> try writing a brute-force Lights Out solver
13:01:21 <ais523> I did almost that yesterday, to help solve an Enigma level
13:01:28 <ais523> (someone else's level, that is)
13:01:46 <ehird> isn't that super-mega-exponentially-hard?
13:02:16 <ehird> wow, the Bible has a copyright statement
13:02:20 <ehird> or rather, a license
13:02:22 <ehird> "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
13:02:22 <mycroftiv> write a perl program that converts other perl programs into a human readable form
13:03:04 <ehird> can anyone link me to the source code of use English?
13:03:32 <ehird> i'd just make it do an s//
13:04:38 <oklofok> ehird: for an nxn grid it'd take 2^(n*n) attempts
13:04:40 <ehird> ais523: ooh, give me something mathematical, and i/we can golf perl vs j
13:04:52 <ehird> oklofok: you mean 2^(n^2) :P
13:05:53 <ehird> "i mean aaaaaaaaaaall sorts of things"
13:06:07 <AnMaster> ais523, what is this lights out?
13:06:15 <ehird> http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/
13:06:18 <ais523> AnMaster: a logic game
13:06:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't ask you. I asked ais523
13:06:43 <ehird> You asked it in a public forum.
13:07:14 <AnMaster> ehird, That is no reason to give unhelpful answers.
13:07:33 <ehird> It was not helpful; had you followed it, you would have reached an answer far richer than ais523's.
13:07:36 <ehird> *it was not unhelpful
13:09:03 <oklofok> AnMaster: you have a universe U, and a set of subsets of U, called S, you are then given a problem instance I, which is a subset of U, and you need to find a subset Z of S such that when you take the multiset M given by the union of sets in Z, each element of I appears in M an odd number of times, and each element in U\I appears an even amount of times
13:09:18 <oklofok> you don't get that from google
13:09:37 <ehird> your mom doesn't get that from google
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13:10:03 <ehird> oklofok: i think your HIGHLY COMPLEX MATHEMATICS might go over AnMaster's head.
13:10:08 <oklofok> refers to the fact my mom doesn't watch porn
13:10:31 <ais523> ehird: http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/DAPM/perl-5.10.1/lib/English.pm
13:10:35 <oklofok> i need to train my incomprehensibility
13:10:40 <ais523> sorry I didn't answer sooner
13:10:44 <ehird> ais523: bah, too complex
13:11:19 <ais523> I love the way it's copying symbol table references
13:13:23 <oklofok> so in lights out, basically we can just think of this as summing a bunch of vectors to another vector, which is basic linear algebra, assuming you know finite fields form vector spaces when you take, well, vectors of them
13:13:59 <ais523> gah, evolution keeps crashing when I load it
13:14:02 <ais523> it wasn't doing that earlier...
13:14:30 <oklofok> i guess that doesn't really solve the part where you want the least amount of presses
13:15:32 <ais523> brute-forcing is 2^(n^2), presumably that's beatable
13:17:14 <oklofok> well finding a solution is clearly in P
13:17:31 * ehird wonders what the best way to geneerate a times table in j is
13:17:48 <ais523> is there a P-time linear algebra algorithm that works even over modulo-N arithmetic?
13:18:53 <oklofok> take all the sets in S, and think of them as length n*n vectors, then find a nice basis for the space of n*n vectors, and store which sets of S are used to get each vector in the basis
13:18:54 <ehird> (1+i.9)*/1+i.10 if you don't want 0s
13:19:35 <oklofok> if you get a nice orthonormal basis, with 000...00100...000 vectors, it's trivial to find a solution
13:20:03 <oklofok> like you have 00110, just take the vectors 00100 and 00010, and sum the vectors of S used to get them
13:20:36 <oklofok> ais523: if you have a finite field F, F^n forms a vector space over F
13:20:59 <ehird> The division table!
13:21:14 <oklofok> if p is prime, then 0, .., p-1 form a finite field
13:21:39 <ehird> (i.10)+/i.10 wraps in a fun way
13:21:59 <oklofok> any "linear algebra algorithm" should work on them just as well as with real vectors or whatever you have
13:22:06 <oklofok> not that i know what a linear algebra algorithm is
13:23:29 <oklofok> ais523: in particular, gaussian elimination works directly in the case of binary arithmetic
13:25:13 <oklofok> for i = 1...n, you just take some vector that has 1 as its ith bit, and add it to all other vectors that have i as their ith bit
13:25:27 <oklofok> if no such vector exists, just skip that part
13:26:39 <ehird> oklofok: what's the j thingy for making a number into a string
13:26:51 <oklofok> sry, i don't know anything about j's strings
13:27:24 <oklofok> it's not like they're that important...............................
13:27:54 <ehird> WELL YOU SHOULD :|
13:28:19 <oklofok> ah it's called row echelon form
13:28:58 <oklofok> now i kinda want to write a generic lights out solver :P
13:29:34 <ais523> better still if you somehow make it TC
13:30:17 <ehird> is there 3d lights out
13:30:38 <oklofok> well mine is already much more general than nd
13:30:43 <AnMaster> ehird, n-dimensional sounds even more fun
13:31:03 <oklofok> i'm just doing this for generic S \subset 2^U
13:31:24 <AnMaster> oklofok, U being the universe set?
13:32:04 <oklofok> for say 3-dimensional, you'd have n^3 elements in U, then form S by taking the, well, whatever form you want your "explosion sizes" to be
13:32:37 <AnMaster> hm makes kind of sense. I think I understood some parts of it at least :)
13:32:42 <oklofok> U being the universe, or you could just think of it as the length of vectors, and give |U|
13:32:49 <ehird> ehh /me tries to remember if j has an adverb meaning repeat argument
13:33:15 <oklofok> i suggest you study basic linear algebra, it's sort of ubiquitous stuff
13:33:49 <AnMaster> oklofok, I do know *basic* linear algebra. Like how to reduce to reduced row echelon form and such.
13:34:04 <oklofok> well right, i guess i mean you should study general linear algebra :P
13:34:35 <AnMaster> oklofok, I also know some set theory. What I'm missing out on here is the vector stuff.
13:35:07 <oklofok> well that is linear algebra too, matrices and vectors are close friends
13:36:08 <AnMaster> oklofok, yeah I said basic. There is some module later on covering it iirc.
13:36:14 <oklofok> one thing "matrices actually are" is a kind of "implementation" of linear maps, that is, mappings between two vector spaces that preserve structure
13:36:54 <quantumEd> it's just solving simultaneous equations of the form ax + by + cz = d
13:36:58 <AnMaster> it's useful. For practical applications
13:37:15 <oklofok> yeah it's a theory of that
13:37:27 <ehird> so */~i. — multiplication table
13:37:39 <oklofok> one of the theories everyone should understand
13:37:51 <quantumEd> you don't need any linear algebra to solve these equations
13:38:57 <AnMaster> quantumEd, well I guess there are/could be other ways. It still seems like an easy and useful way for solving large equation systems.
13:39:46 <oklofok> quantumEd: did you know a lot of modern coding theory also relies on linear algebra? while it's a theory of linear equations, it has applications outside them.
13:40:16 <oklofok> i mean linear algebra is what gives says if we have a linear code, we can find a basis for our code, and we have a unique dimension
13:40:38 <oklofok> and the orthogonal complement space of C is of dimension n-dim(C)
13:41:04 <oklofok> this is all stuff that doesn't have to be proven separately, because linear algebra gives us an understanding of general vector spaces
13:41:37 <oklofok> whoops, i guess i was wrong.
13:41:49 <quantumEd> when I said forget linear algebra I meant, for the duration of solving lights out
13:44:23 <oklofok> oh. then i agree in this case you could just think of it as solving equations.
13:44:41 <quantumEd> yes so don't jump to conclusions to ridicule me please
13:44:46 <oklofok> i mean for getting solutions
13:45:05 <oklofok> err, and also seeing if they exist in practical situations
13:45:16 <quantumEd> "You are such a fucking moron I am leaving rather than waste time listening to your bullshit"
13:46:09 <ehird> quantumEd: you're way too sensitive
13:46:16 <ehird> not everything's a war against you
13:46:17 <oklofok> yeah, i said that, then realized that was rude, and explained myself
13:46:32 <oklofok> but mostly i said that because i was leaving
13:46:59 <oklofok> quantumEd: it really did sound like you were saying linear algebra is useless.
13:47:15 <quantumEd> oklofok how much of a stupid dickhead do you think I am? seriously
13:47:31 <ehird> "You are such a fucking moron I am leaving rather than waste time listening to your bullshit" is amusing with him previously saying he left because of me
13:47:41 <ehird> "you are such a fucking dick I am leaving rather than waste time listening to your bullshit"
13:47:56 <oklofok> quantumEd: you could think it's not something people should learn as the first things in mathematics without being a stupid dickhead, imo
13:48:03 <oklofok> i would just loudly disagree, as i did.
13:53:41 <AnMaster> quantumEd, oklofok always had problems leaving when he had to. Don't take it personally
13:53:53 <AnMaster> he usually shows up several times again before actually leaving for real
13:53:56 <quantumEd> AnMaster I guess you missed what happened earlire
13:54:03 <ehird> AnMaster: quantumEd has a persecution complex.
13:54:09 <AnMaster> quantumEd, probably. I don't generally read scrollback
13:54:42 <ehird> an irrational and obsessive feeling or fear that one is the object of collective hostility or ill-treatment on the part of others.
13:54:54 <ehird> quoth whatever os x's dictionary is
13:55:13 <AnMaster> ehird, 2. The feeling you easily get around ehird
13:55:40 <ehird> If you're prone to taking criticisms personally when they were not so, yes.
13:55:49 <AnMaster> ehird, ... That was a joke dujh
13:56:23 <ehird> i wonder if fortran has any cool ideas
13:56:57 <AnMaster> well, okay, hard to define that precisely
13:57:27 <AnMaster> also I know next to nothing about fortran
13:57:41 <ehird> i still find it hard to believe how short oberon-2's report is compared to r5rs...
13:57:42 <oerjan> been cooling for 50 years, should be practically freezing
13:58:01 <AnMaster> oh yeah I remember one thing. at least gcc's fortran compiler stores multi-dimensional arrays in the opposite order of gcc's C compiler
13:58:13 <AnMaster> as in a C array like int myarray[200][100];
13:58:57 <ehird> ary[x][y] = ary[(x*width)+y] is intuitive and obvious, I'd say
13:59:06 <ehird> AnMaster: he was joking
13:59:24 <AnMaster> ehird, but I found the joke rather mediocre
13:59:58 <AnMaster> ehird, not up to his usual punerific strength
14:00:01 <ehird> ary[x][y][z] = ary[(((x*width)+y)*depth)+z]
14:00:05 <ehird> wonder if that can be simplified
14:00:26 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway the thing is gcc stores it in one order and gfortran in the opposite one
14:00:29 -!- adu has quit.
14:00:34 <fizzie> MATLAB matrices are also in column-major order in memory, at least usually.
14:00:39 <AnMaster> iirc fortran was columns first, but gcc was row first
14:00:58 <ehird> in int foo[42][34]; is sizeof foo == 42*sizeof int?
14:01:04 <ehird> or is it 42*34*sizeof int
14:01:26 <AnMaster> ehird, err how could the former one happen?
14:01:38 <ehird> oh, you could do sizeof foo / sizeof foo[0]
14:01:44 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving").
14:02:19 -!- adu has joined.
14:04:20 <ehird> nested: A[X][Y] = A[(X*(sizeof A / sizeof A[0]))+Y]
14:04:21 <ehird> | {A[X]:nested}[Y] = A[(X*(sizeof A / sizeof A[0]))+Y]
14:04:23 <ehird> but in the latter one
14:04:36 <ehird> it needs to know how nested it is previously
14:04:44 <ehird> just use the generic pointer rule :P
14:06:20 <ehird> AnMaster: width, depth, ?
14:06:34 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, yes, it was just an example :P
14:07:19 <ehird> i'll call it fourd
14:07:25 <ehird> and the variables x,y,z,x4
14:07:40 <ehird> ok, mathematica has found a simpler form for me
14:08:32 <ehird> or rather, not it hasn't
14:08:39 <ehird> but it has found one with less nesting!
14:08:57 <ehird> a[x][y][z] = (depth*width*x) + (depth*y) + z
14:08:58 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the current mathematica version
14:09:17 <ehird> a[x][y][z][x4] = (depth*fourd*width*x*x4) + (depth*fourd*x4*y) + (fourd*x4*z)
14:09:21 <ehird> ofc that's kinda obvious
14:09:24 <ehird> AnMaster: what; legally?!
14:09:31 <ehird> i hope your name is moneybags
14:09:37 <ehird> wait then you'd be able to look it up
14:10:00 <AnMaster> ehird, lets not go into details
14:10:00 <ehird> so clearly illegally
14:10:24 <AnMaster> suffice to say I'm always a law abiding person and this is a public place and freenode doesn't use ssl, and why trust freenode anwyay.
14:10:34 <ehird> AnMaster: you'll need a key generator, and it'll only run on windows, just so you know... just in case... not that i'm implying anything...
14:10:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I have MSDNAA and I have virtualbox. What else does one need?
14:10:59 <ehird> a vm might be good... because they're not too trustable... this is for PUBLIC INFORMATION ONLY
14:11:14 <AnMaster> if I did that I would rollback of course
14:11:19 <AnMaster> not that I would ever do such a thing
14:11:51 <ehird> if you're epileptic the demoscene light show included might be bad... JUST SAYING
14:12:04 <ehird> there, I think that was relatively inconspicuous
14:12:06 <AnMaster> anything important new in 7.0.1 compared to 7.0.0?
14:12:07 <ehird> just call me ford prefect
14:12:10 <ehird> AnMaster: probably not.
14:12:20 <ehird> sounds like a bugfix release
14:12:41 <ehird> and mathematica is buggy enough that it hardly matters :D
14:12:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I have of course not seen such demoscene light shows before, but I do happen to know exactly what you mean. Very strange this knowledge just dumped straight into my brain somehow.
14:13:11 <ehird> Clearly all minds are the same.
14:13:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I read that as "fnord prefect" first XD
14:13:20 <ehird> You have the ability to break down the barriers between them.
14:13:35 <ehird> AnMaster: also, you can't edit mathematica notebooks (programs) outside of mathematica, just so you kknow
14:13:52 <ehird> well they're not really programs per se
14:14:08 <ehird> they're definitions, lines of code that haven't been rune, lines of code with their output (which can be interactive) below, and formatted text to explain it
14:14:30 <ehird> oh, and it automatically indents, add spacing and wraps lines for you. working against it is painful, I suggest never typing whitespace
14:14:39 <fizzie> But you can view them with that viewer thing that everyone of course has installed.
14:14:50 <ehird> finally, the default 3d output is fugly because it doesn't antialiase
14:15:00 <ehird> in the options, it's appearance→graphics→drag to the highest setting. barely any performance hit.
14:15:44 <AnMaster> ehird, purely hypothetical: to what degree should one trust the actual pirated program in question if the keygen can't be trusted?
14:16:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Entirely.
14:16:09 <ehird> Keygens aren't cracks, they don't hack the program.
14:16:24 <ehird> They just reverse-engineered the key mechanism, and made a program that generates valid ones.
14:16:30 <AnMaster> ehird, even if the keygen is included in the same purely hypothetical torrent?
14:16:42 <ehird> AnMaster: It was not compiled by the keygen authors.
14:16:52 <ehird> The warez community... isn't too fond of bittorrent.
14:17:03 <ehird> Neither is the piracy community.
14:17:12 <ehird> AnMaster: tradition, security, privacy.
14:17:39 <AnMaster> ehird, well, what do you suggest, a 600 part yencoded usenet thread?
14:17:49 <AnMaster> or something around that. Probably more parts
14:18:11 <ehird> They use protected FTP servers.
14:18:34 <ehird> To get in to one, you have to have first made a certain number of releases yourself and stuff.
14:18:54 <ehird> There's a tier of most-exclusive-earliest-releases-fastest-connections down to the public sites.
14:19:19 <ehird> There're bots that distribute it all downwards. There's a race between scene groups to complete a distribution of a new release before anyone else, and the group that manages it wins that release.
14:19:20 <AnMaster> ehird, so then who uses torrents?
14:19:24 <ehird> This is all vague and I've probably made some errors.
14:19:41 <ehird> AnMaster: FTP might filter down to Usenet or whatever, or straight from the public site.
14:20:01 <ehird> Then it just circulates around P2P and shit, and someone makes a torrent at some point.
14:20:37 <ehird> like gnutella and stuff, I guess
14:20:52 <ehird> i'm fuzzy as to the path from scene-approved to torrents
14:21:27 <ehird> oh, maybe ed2k is involved somewhere
14:21:33 <AnMaster> ehird, of course, since all this is just hypothetical knowledge or something
14:21:40 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDonkey_network
14:21:54 <ehird> the ed2k://long hash links
14:22:07 <ehird> not that i've ever seen one.
14:22:13 <ehird> btw mathematica uses qt for gui
14:22:29 <ehird> you can technically use at the command line, but most of mathematica's fun is from the interactive/graphical stuff
14:22:37 <AnMaster> I haven't seen such a link either. Not even hypothetically
14:23:43 <ehird> It's a binary, I believe.
14:23:45 <ehird> Plus supporting files.
14:23:57 <ehird> http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/tutorial/InstallingMathematicaOnUnixAndLinux.html
14:24:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, is it a installer.sh thing that spews all over the file system or not
14:24:09 <ehird> It's an installer.
14:24:15 <ehird> 5. The installer prompts you to specify the directory in which Mathematica should be installed. The default location is /usr/local/Wolfram/Mathematica/7.0. Press Enter to accept the default, or type in a new location and then press Enter.
14:24:19 <ehird> AnMaster: But no file system spew.
14:24:25 <ehird> I'd suggest /opt/mathematica.
14:24:30 <ehird> Or if you have no /opt, /usr/lib/mathematica.
14:24:38 <ehird> 7. You are asked for the location in which to copy the executable scripts. You should choose a directory that is present on each user's PATH. The scripts are also installed in the Executables subdirectory of the Mathematica installation directory. Type a location or accept the default and press Enter.
14:24:40 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah and do it as normal user
14:24:44 <ehird> I'd choose $prefix/bin.
14:25:03 <ehird> AnMaster: That'll fuck up the ownership of the resulting files.
14:25:04 <AnMaster> as in create directory and chown it to said user, then install mathematica as it
14:25:05 <ehird> I highly doubt Wolfram have created a malicious piece of software.
14:25:35 <ehird> It only touches the Mathematica prefix and the executable prefix, it seems.
14:25:37 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) binary installer 2) hypothetical non-trusted source
14:25:42 <ehird> AnMaster: it says it requires root.
14:25:46 <AnMaster> ehird, also you said it was buggy
14:25:50 <ehird> it's shell, I believe
14:25:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Mathematica itseelf
14:25:58 <ehird> but that's mostly crashes and stuff
14:26:09 <ehird> algorithmic errors that is
14:26:13 <ehird> that make it crash
14:26:28 <AnMaster> ehird, why so badly coded one wonders
14:26:28 <ehird> i've never crashed mathematica
14:26:40 <ehird> but ais523 is quite pathological
14:26:53 <ehird> AnMaster: the main thing you'll notice with mathematica is that if you compose a few primitives, it's really fast
14:26:59 <ehird> and then if you write some code that isn't glue, it takes years
14:27:10 <ehird> it's bipolar performance
14:27:14 <AnMaster> also this is hypothetically strange: getting higher download speed than what your connection limit is.
14:27:18 <ehird> manic-depressive language
14:27:30 <ehird> AnMaster: what connection speed, what download speed?
14:27:37 <ehird> answer with proper units, please
14:27:48 <ehird> i.e. b=bit, B=byte, K=1000, Ki=1024
14:27:53 <ehird> otherwise I won't be able to see what you got wrong :-D
14:28:00 <ehird> your connection is 9 Mb, right?
14:28:03 <ehird> 9 megabits = 9,000 bits
14:28:06 <AnMaster> ehird, "8 megabit down" (ISP's wording), 2 megabit (1024 based) actual download
14:28:15 <ehird> AnMaster: 1024 x bit?
14:28:19 <ehird> surely you mean 2 megabyte
14:28:26 <ehird> megabit is never 1024 based
14:28:45 <ehird> so, to translate into the formal units required for actually diagnosing the problem
14:28:56 <AnMaster> anyway I should get something around 1000 kilobyte per second max
14:28:56 <ehird> ISP says 8 Mb/s = 8 megabits per second
14:29:21 <AnMaster> in practise I tend to get 800 kbyte/s (unknown if it is 1000 or 1024) most time
14:29:24 <ehird> You tend to get 2 MiB/s = 16 Mb/s
14:29:29 <ehird> = 16 megabits per second
14:29:35 <ehird> i think google fucked up that conversion
14:29:53 <AnMaster> ehird, you went from bits to byte
14:29:53 <ehird> eh, I can't trust google to have the correct units
14:30:08 <AnMaster> ehird, the maths is easy, just do it yourself
14:30:10 <ehird> I'm going to write a program that actually converts them properly
14:30:18 <ehird> AnMaster: not when you get to Mi
14:30:35 <AnMaster> ehird, just unravel it down to bytes/bits
14:30:37 * ehird tries writing it in perl, for no reason
14:31:19 <ehird> kilobytes to petabytes should do methinks
14:35:51 <ehird> wat, perl's foreach doesn't let you get the indices too?
14:36:48 <ehird> LOL, http://perldoc.perl.org/functions/ shows the thiing for index
14:37:07 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
14:37:21 * AnMaster wonders why on earth /opt/plan9 is owned by the non-existent user 1002
14:39:37 <ehird> automating -i is hard because it's just "nearest power"
14:41:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
14:43:13 <ehird> i'm case-insensitive in the first letter of the prefix, but not the rest
14:43:51 <ehird> I is a syntax error.
14:44:00 <ehird> it's just that the thing for kibibytes, officially, is kiB
14:44:02 <ehird> logically it's KiB
14:45:40 <ehird> I guess uppercase I will work
14:45:42 <ehird> just for my laziness
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14:49:30 <ehird> I need to use bignums
14:49:33 <ehird> because i work in bits
14:49:41 <ehird> since the smallest unit is b = 1 bit
14:49:56 <ehird> and 1 petabyte is a loooot of bits
14:50:08 <ehird> oh well, easy enough
14:50:14 <ehird> and no other code changes required
14:50:23 <ehird> (AnMaster will hate that, it's magic)
14:51:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm indifferent to this information
14:51:25 <AnMaster> why? Becuase I already hate perl.
14:51:57 <ehird> hate is a strong word
14:54:07 <AnMaster> ehird, the hypothetical keygen seems to have instructions in, uh, spanish?
14:54:28 <ehird> and put AnMaster or your real name in every field it wants (prolly name, organisation)
14:54:40 <ehird> it should give a serial key and some other ID thing
14:54:41 <AnMaster> ehird, why my real name or such
14:54:49 <ehird> AnMaster: because it's what mathematica will put as your license information
14:54:57 <ehird> no need for such paranoia, it's an in-program key checker
14:57:55 <AnMaster> fun, own category in the program menu
14:58:01 <AnMaster> you said it didn't clobber stuff iirc?
14:58:47 <AnMaster> 32,7% (9725,4) MathKernel : schedule_hrtimeout_range (hrtimer_wakeup)
14:58:47 <AnMaster> 32,7% (9712,2) Mathematica : schedule_hrtimeout_range (hrtimer_wakeup)
14:58:47 <AnMaster> 32,5% (9655,4) java : schedule_hrtimeout_range (hrtimer_wakeup)
14:59:20 <ehird> Didn't know it clobbered the menus.
14:59:24 <AnMaster> ehird, it causes noise from my laptop
14:59:26 <ehird> No big shakes, it's just one file.
14:59:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Even idling?
14:59:46 <AnMaster> high pitched C4 mwait/C0 switches
15:00:06 <ehird> Look at the Parallel tab.
15:00:15 <ehird> should be launching kernels when needed
15:00:19 <ehird> automatic (number of cores)
15:00:28 <ehird> is run kernels at a lower process priority set?
15:00:55 <AnMaster> still this noise is annoying. argh
15:01:39 <ehird> you'll have to deal with it
15:02:13 <AnMaster> ehird, this is "worse than CRT" noise.
15:02:23 <AnMaster> Wakeups-from-idle per second : 10379,7 interval: 10,0s
15:02:52 <ehird> Or try setting there to be only one kernel.
15:03:03 <ehird> And set it to launch parallel kernels at startup, then restart.
15:05:50 <ehird> Some part of it is Java.
15:06:08 <ehird> I would reset those settings you changed, btw.
15:06:10 <AnMaster> icedtea is buggy IME. Maybe that is why
15:06:20 <ehird> Try the open-source Sun JDK.
15:06:47 <AnMaster> Mathematica has received the signal: SIGSEGV and has exited.
15:07:31 -!- coppro has joined.
15:07:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit ("Leaving").
15:08:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Even more magic than "use bignum"
15:08:37 <ehird> Now all divisions are integer division.
15:08:41 <ehird> Of course, this is usually used in a block:
15:09:05 <ehird> Hmm, in fact, I think it has to be in a block.
15:10:24 <ehird> No, program, 8 KiB = 64 Kb, not 65.536.
15:10:31 -!- Pthing has joined.
15:10:37 <AnMaster> ehird, is there a way to tell apt-get that "no even if this is a recommends, I don't want this package"
15:10:45 <ehird> Or, no, wait, my Perl program is right.
15:10:46 <AnMaster> "error out rather than try to install this"
15:10:56 <ehird> AnMaster: There's a --dont-install-recommends-fuck-you
15:11:37 <AnMaster> still I was considering a specific one I want to ban forever to the deepest circles of hell
15:11:59 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:12:37 <AnMaster> but --no-install-recommends works I guess
15:13:31 <ais523> note that the "recommends" means "if you want that, you almost certainly want this too unless you're doing something really weird"
15:14:26 <AnMaster> ais523, well I disagree in this case
15:14:58 <AnMaster> avahi-daemon and sun-java6-jdk (indirect dep)
15:15:19 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you switch implementation for alternatives?
15:15:36 <AnMaster> say, I want to switch from openjdk to sun's jdk
15:15:48 <ais523> there's a command for it, but I can never remember what it is
15:16:09 <ais523> ah, sudo update-alternatives
15:16:22 <ais523> it's probably best to read the man page before using it
15:16:54 <ais523> "sudo update-alternatives --config java" is the normal method of using it
15:16:57 <AnMaster> tldr but I have to get something sugar rich, should be able to handle it then
15:17:19 <ais523> where you write the name of the binary in question, which is probably going to be "java" here
15:21:28 <AnMaster> ehird, ah there seems to be many reports on this
15:21:33 <ehird> unless you want the closed one
15:21:34 <AnMaster> googling on mathematica 7 linux powertop
15:22:06 <AnMaster> ehird, well the openjdk was the buggy one, that was causing grief in another context recently
15:22:17 <AnMaster> the closed one being less buggy
15:22:41 <AnMaster> (not by me, but by the author of that java application)
15:23:25 <AnMaster> ehird, http://groups.google.com/group/comp.soft-sys.math.mathematica/browse_thread/thread/861d1ad03b19d949
15:24:17 <AnMaster> ehird, same behaviour as I'm seeing
15:24:41 <fizzie> OpenJDK had some really strange bugs in the AWT/Swing image-processing parts; though those have long since been fixed. (It was just that only some of the university boxen were new enough to have fixed versions.)
15:25:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm the issue was in awt stuff iirc
15:25:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Try the 32-bit version?
15:25:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:25:32 <ehird> Wolfram are anal with their licenses.
15:26:27 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I need this thing called sleep. So yeah will try in 32-bit chroot tomorrow
15:26:46 <ehird> Just press the sleep button!
15:27:27 <ehird> $ ./sconvert 4PiB Pb
15:27:42 <ehird> 4 pebibytes is ~26.84 petabits.
15:27:45 <ehird> The more you know!
15:27:52 -!- fungot has joined.
15:27:58 <fungot> ehird: along with nick, for a marker, not an expression?)) fnord
15:28:00 <ehird> I didn't know you'd left
15:28:03 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
15:28:28 -!- jpc has joined.
15:28:42 <fizzie> Really should put fungot under some auto-restart service supervisor one of these days.
15:28:42 <fungot> fizzie: or the specification has changed, maybe it will be
15:29:03 <ehird> $ ./sconvert 1024PiB b
15:29:51 <ehird> [23:27] ehird: $ ./sconvert 4PiB Pb
15:29:52 <ehird> [23:27] ehird: 26.8435456 Pb
15:29:52 <ehird> was incorrect too.
15:30:02 <fizzie> Not sure when he left either. The wlan box did reset when I added an entry to the MAC filter list, but that shouldn't affect him.
15:30:10 <AnMaster> ehird, does it work for MiB to MB?
15:30:27 <ehird> Mebibytes to megabytes, or to megabits?
15:30:57 <ehird> $ ./sconvert 1024MiB MB
15:31:02 <ehird> AnMaster: you're known to use inconsistent units
15:31:10 <ehird> I think the above is wrong, yeah.
15:31:34 <ehird> My prefixes are— hm, no.
15:31:36 <AnMaster> ehird, you had it backwards right?
15:31:48 <ehird> print expr_value($ARGV[0])/unit_value($ARGV[1]), " $ARGV[1]\n";
15:32:07 <ehird> unit_value('kB') → 8000
15:32:16 <ehird> expr_value('3 kb') → 3000
15:32:26 <ehird> $ ./sconvert 1MiB MB
15:32:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Remember that the intermediate values are bits.
15:32:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well try it for just bits then
15:33:13 <ehird> $ ./sconvert 1Kib Kb
15:33:27 <ehird> Yep, that's right.
15:33:36 <ehird> $ ./sconvert 1KiB KB
15:33:44 <ehird> $ ./sconvert 1KiB Kb
15:33:46 <AnMaster> ehird, but the MiB -> MB one was wrong
15:34:45 <ehird> 1 MiB = 1.048576 MB, I believe.
15:34:55 <ehird> $ ./sconvert 1MiB MB
15:34:56 <ehird> So, I think that's wr— oh, perhaps—
15:35:16 <AnMaster> it should be more than one MB at least
15:36:11 <ehird> print unit_value('MiB')/8,"\n";
15:36:12 <AnMaster> an 80 GB disk fits around 74 GiB iirc
15:36:22 <ehird> Division by 8 should convert bits to bytes.
15:36:38 <ehird> my @ids = split //, 'kmgtp';
15:36:39 <ehird> my $pow10 = 10**($_+3);
15:36:39 <ehird> $prefixes{$ids[$_]} = $pow10;
15:36:39 <ehird> $prefixes{$ids[$_].'i'} = 2**int((log($pow10)/log(2))+.5);
15:36:48 <ehird> I think my error is in the i line.
15:36:53 <AnMaster> because I remember what that should be
15:37:02 <ehird> It's calculating the nearest power of two. Maybe that's incorrect.
15:37:35 <ehird> My prefixes are definitely wrong.
15:38:01 <AnMaster> ehird, known test case from segate disk: 80 GB is around 74 GiB
15:38:26 <ehird> 61.03515625 here. My prefixes hash must be in error; let me dump it.
15:39:00 <ehird> print "$_\t$prefixes{$_}\n" foreach (keys %prefixes);
15:39:11 <fizzie> You want fixed powers of two, not upwards-rounded ones.
15:39:31 <ehird> http://pastie.org/729686.txt?key=dqx6u1u7v0u9wipsfhg
15:39:35 <ehird> fizzie: Unverbosify?
15:39:58 <fizzie> 2^10 for ki, 2^20 for Mi and so on.
15:40:11 <AnMaster> "Today I finally tried an 2.6.27 kernel and the problem disappeared. So it seems that Mathematica has a problem with kernels newer than 2.6.27 and that this problem is not Ubuntu specific."
15:40:45 <ehird> fizzie: Oh, so it's just 2^(i*10)?
15:41:18 <ehird> fizzie: k:0,m:1,g:2,t:3,p:4
15:41:26 <ehird> wow, I'm stupid :)
15:41:57 <ehird> $ ./sconvert 80GB GiB
15:41:57 <ehird> 0.007450580596923828125 GiB
15:42:03 <ehird> fizzie: I suspect you of incorrectosity!
15:42:18 <ehird> my @ids = split //, 'kmgtp';
15:42:18 <ehird> $prefixes{$ids[$_]} = 10**($_+3);
15:42:18 <ehird> $prefixes{$ids[$_].'i'} = 2**(($_+1)*10);
15:42:20 <AnMaster> okay that's some false marketing if I ever seen it
15:42:45 <ehird> (but srsly, it's not a drive company conspiracy, people who say that are dumb)
15:42:50 <fizzie> That's just a factor-of-1000 error if I saw right.
15:43:00 <AnMaster> ehird, but jokishly: I know that
15:43:14 <ehird> loads of people really think it's false marketing
15:43:24 <AnMaster> ehird, of course the real conspiracy is SI using 1000 not 1024
15:43:27 <ehird> fizzie: Indeed, but I don't see why in my code.
15:43:39 <ehird> AnMaster: IMPERIAL SYSTEM UBER ALLES
15:43:44 <coppro> why is it weird that SI prefixes do not correspond to SI values?
15:43:44 <ehird> PINTS AND YARDS AND MILES
15:44:09 <coppro> k = 1000x... deciding it ought to be 1024x just because it's more convenient is rather dumb
15:44:17 <ehird> In the US, both the time and the measurements are non-decimal, but they use them both in decimal.
15:44:30 <ehird> coppro: Indeed. Even in a REAL binary system, 1024 wouldn't be special.
15:44:33 <AnMaster> oh is that how it feels to say it
15:44:36 <ehird> We only use 1024 because it's close to 1000.
15:44:38 <ehird> AnMaster: It's whoosh.
15:44:48 <ehird> woosh is a girly wind. WHOOSH is MEATY!
15:45:18 <coppro> also, it's a lowercase k; people seem to get this wrong :/
15:45:22 <fizzie> I don't know either; do dump that %prefixes hash, since the init should be right now.
15:46:05 <ehird> coppro: Yeah, but know the crazy thing?
15:46:10 <ehird> The standard for the -i suffixes says that it's Ki-.
15:46:12 <ehird> Even though it's k-.
15:46:19 <ehird> THAT IS INCONSISTENT AND STUPID ;_;
15:46:19 <coppro> hmm... I'll just start measuring everything in dab, just to confuse people.
15:46:55 <fizzie> Oh. You want 10**(($_+1)*3) there too.
15:46:55 <ehird> mb. That's less than one bit.
15:46:56 <ehird> HOW DOES THAT EVEN—
15:47:01 <AnMaster> oh there are patches from wolfram it seems
15:47:06 <coppro> ehird: to confuse people who think I'm talking about Mb
15:47:16 <ehird> They think you'll mean MiB, probably.
15:47:22 <ehird> http://catseye.tc/projects/turkeyb/doc/turkeyb.html
15:47:27 <coppro> one GB == 8,000,000,000,000 mb
15:47:27 <ehird> "Two thirds of a bit plus half a trit."
15:47:38 <ehird> I am going to start measuring in BI_ITs.
15:47:39 <fizzie> Now it's 10**3, 10**4, ... and so on, which is not very right.
15:48:07 <ehird> fizzie: Err, are you sure?
15:48:45 <ehird> $ ./sconvert 80GB GiB
15:48:45 <ehird> 74.50580596923828125 GiB
15:48:45 <ehird> I like the jut of your KiB!
15:49:16 <ehird> It should be legal to combine units.
15:49:51 <ehird> coppro: Oh, right, I meant M.
15:50:20 <coppro> hmm... other fun things to measure in: YB
15:50:37 <ehird> Yotta comes after peta, right?
15:50:46 <ehird> I should probably make my calculator anal so that you have to use the correct capitalisation.
15:50:51 <adu> after, meaning smaller?
15:50:56 <ehird> I just need to make sure k's binary form becomes Ki.
15:51:06 <ehird> coppro: although, do you think I should accept ki too? Because Ki is really fucking stupid.
15:51:31 <adu> i think prefixes are stupid
15:51:33 <fizzie> "Double prefixes such as those formerly used in micromicrofarads (picofarads), hectokilometres (100 kilometres), and millimicrons or micromillimetres (both nanometres) were also dropped with the introduction of the SI."
15:51:34 <coppro> ehird: Ki makes sense in that it's used for consistency with other 'i' forms; I wouldn't really care either way
15:51:45 <adu> why don't people just write 1000000000000000?
15:51:59 <ehird> adu: obvious ereasons.
15:52:10 <coppro> k is the highest lowercase prefix
15:52:18 <fizzie> The "micromicrofarad" one is a link too.
15:52:22 <ehird> coppro: but k makes sense with consistency for... most other >0 prefixes :-)
15:52:30 <coppro> they should just have made all prefixes >1x capital
15:52:36 <coppro> that would avoid "da" as well
15:52:39 <ehird> i'll make it support both ki and Ki
15:52:45 <ehird> the first one is rational and the second one is standard
15:52:51 <coppro> make it complain if you enter KB or Kb
15:52:51 <adu> ehird: and kI
15:53:04 <adu> ehird: for the stupids
15:54:18 <fizzie> "A micro-microfarad (μμF) that can be found in older texts is the equivalent of a picofarad." (That probably has a broken mu sign, haven't fixed the locale just right.)
15:54:37 <coppro> also, if it sees "iB", it should complain that Hungarion notation sucks
15:54:53 <ehird> Okay, program made anal.
15:55:11 <ehird> also, it's hungarian
15:55:22 <ehird> $ ./sconvert 1KiB kB
15:55:34 <ehird> $ ./sconvert 1KiB KB
15:55:46 <ehird> I should probably handle that
15:55:54 <adu> did you mean μμF?
15:56:01 <coppro> you should make it do other units two :D
15:56:39 <ehird> coppro: But it's mainly for byte/bit, binary/decimal confusion.
15:57:04 <coppro> also, curse my atrocious word choice there
15:57:07 <coppro> that should have been "too"
15:57:15 -!- kar8nga has joined.
15:57:30 <ehird> coppro: units(1) is there for the rest
15:57:58 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:58:12 <AnMaster> <fizzie> "A micro-microfarad (μμF) that can be found in older texts is the equivalent of a picofarad." (That probably has a broken mu sign, haven't fixed the locale just right.)
15:58:32 <adu> Ůŋıçøðë Řōχ
15:58:53 <ehird> $ echo "3$(units kg grams | tail -1)" | bc
15:59:08 <fizzie> It should be pretty clear from the () part what was meant.
15:59:45 <ehird> Use of uninitialized value in multiplication (*) at ./sconvert line 38.
15:59:46 <ehird> Use of uninitialized value in split at ./sconvert line 27.
15:59:46 <ehird> Use of uninitialized value in hash element at ./sconvert line 28.
16:00:30 <AnMaster> ehird, use strict; use warnings; use whatever-the-thing-that-makes-you-have-to-pass-stuff-through-a-regex-to-make-it-trusted;?
16:00:43 <ehird> Nothing to do with that.
16:00:51 <ehird> Trivial bug, now fixed.
16:01:26 <ehird> Eh, now it says bad input for everything :-D
16:01:39 <AnMaster> ehird, you should have used python instead
16:01:47 <coppro> AnMaster: tainted mode?
16:01:47 <ehird> I'm going to code this in C out of curiosity, see how much bigger it is.
16:02:06 <ehird> Maybe I'll just use longs for the C version. :P
16:02:16 <ehird> Not that it'll be able to handle yottabytes, but.
16:02:34 <AnMaster> ehird, why not? you get 32 bits on 32-bit x86 then
16:03:56 <ehird> You get 32-bits with long too...
16:04:34 <AnMaster> 32-bit x86 sizeof: int=4, long=4, long long=8
16:04:39 <AnMaster> 64-bit x86 sizeof: int=4, long=8, long long=8
16:05:33 <AnMaster> ehird, still why not long long?
16:06:02 <ehird> Because long is more widely supported and grokkable.
16:06:05 <coppro> the only decent error message in all of GCC
16:06:28 <coppro> "Error: 'long long long' is too long for GCC"
16:07:19 <ehird> I am now of the opinion that C compilers should offer a bigint type.
16:08:36 <coppro> I don't think the standard allows that :/
16:08:55 <AnMaster> coppro, oh? as a pointer type surely?
16:09:18 <AnMaster> well, not as a simple type obviously
16:09:21 <coppro> AnMaster: ah, of course, but then all the regular operations would need functions :/
16:09:29 <ehird> prefixes[sizeof PREFIX_NAMES][2];
16:09:40 <ehird> prefixes['M']['i']
16:09:43 <ehird> prefixes['M']['\0']
16:09:52 <coppro> AnMaster: I suppose an implementation could make a type implemented internally as a pointer
16:10:05 <ehird> Oh, it needs to be that sizeof + 1.
16:10:35 <coppro> but the amount of work that would require is probably not worth it
16:13:21 <ehird> Okay, I've written prefix_value and unit_value in C.
16:13:27 <ehird> Pretty good so far.
16:14:52 <ehird> I want to use unsigned long, but I need to use -1 as an error code.
16:14:59 <ehird> Fuck you, C. Fuck you and your lack of convenient error handling.
16:16:05 <ehird> Actually, I'd say that lack of convenient error handling is C's #1 flaw.
16:16:19 <ehird> If it just had a convenient tuple type ... it's just the same as a struct...
16:17:02 <ehird> (T1, T2+) is a type the same as struct {T1 _1; T2 _2; ...}. If you write "(a, b+) = tuple;", it extracts the values. If you use _ as a name, the value is discarded.
16:17:11 <ehird> Voila, now your erroring functions look like:
16:17:32 <ehird> And you use them like:
16:17:39 <ehird> (foolhardy, _) = might_fail();
16:17:43 <ehird> (safe, err) = might_fail();
16:17:48 <ehird> Is that really so difficult?!
16:18:40 <coppro> ehird: it looks convenient, so no
16:19:09 <ehird> You could do it a bit with cpp, I think.
16:19:26 <ehird> At least, tuples. Not triples and beyond.
16:19:31 <ehird> Without defining a separate macro.
16:19:39 <ehird> Well, and with gcc's typeof.
16:20:30 <ehird> #define tuple(x, y) ((struct{typeof(x) a; typeof(y) b;}){(x),(y)})
16:21:25 <ehird> extract requires a temporary variable, though.
16:22:19 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
16:25:23 <ehird> Has anyone worked on an implementation of TURKEY BOMB apart from ais523? Didn't think so.
16:25:59 <ehird> Apparently ais523 came up with a turing-complete interpretation of the spec.
16:27:25 -!- adu has quit.
16:27:33 <ehird> http://catseye.tc/projects/turkeyb/doc/turkeyb.html is what I'm referring to.
16:27:42 <ehird> A conceptual quantum state of information.
16:27:42 <ehird> Negative six sevenths of a decimal digit.]]
16:27:50 <ehird> ais had a NEGATIVE_AMICED type instead
16:27:55 <ehird> and negated all operations on it
16:28:28 <ehird> PUDDING is also a tricky one, I'd do void *PUDDING = 0;
16:28:32 <ehird> as the size should be infinite
16:28:38 <ehird> and all of the memory is close to infinite as it gets
16:28:45 <ehird> as far as an unknowable value goes, just don't let the program at it
16:29:11 <ehird> Oh, and HYBRID OBTAINED BY COMBINING without WITH GUSTO has to be the average of the sizes of the two types.
16:29:22 <ehird> Good luck figuring out which fields to include.
16:29:50 <ehird> TURKEY BOMB itself should just be a pointer to TURKEY BOMB.
16:30:24 <ehird> If you want to be ultra-spec-compliant:
16:31:04 <ehird> struct TURKEY_BOMB {
16:31:04 <ehird> struct TURKEY_BOMB *referent;
16:31:05 <ehird> TURKEY_BOMB.referent = &TURKEY_BOMB;
16:31:52 <ehird> Once you've got all the types, you have to infer the language itself from the paradigm and the operators.
16:32:03 <ehird> And, well, try and figure out things like:
16:32:05 <ehird> [[BI_IT BI_IT ? BI_IT BI_IT ? BI_IT BI_IT
16:32:05 <ehird> 3-argument trit operation; unfortunately the Ancient Texts seem unclear on what it actually does. (The closest English translation appears to be "take these trits three and meditate soundly upon them.")]]
16:32:47 <ehird> [[Attempts to deduce the existance of a HUMIDOR in the given PUDDING.]]
16:32:48 <ehird> Considering that PUDDING has an unknowable value... but if we assume it's all of memory, it just works out whether any HUMIDORs exist.
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16:33:05 <ehird> Returns a PUDDING indicating everything but EXPR.]]
16:33:05 <ehird> Just keep a list of things not included in PUDDING.
16:33:22 <ehird> [[WHEREFORE ART EXPR
16:33:23 <ehird> Returns a PUDDING indicating the entire metaphysical nature of EXPR.]]
16:33:23 <ehird> Perhaps a pointer to the internal representation of the value.
16:33:37 <ehird> Convolutes the PUDDING with recent context drawn from the program. The player holding the TURKEY BOMB must pass it off.]]
16:33:37 <ehird> Not a fucking clue.
16:33:55 <ehird> [[IMAGINE PUDDING, PUDDING!
16:33:56 <ehird> Returns a NOMENCLATURE indicating all the variables unchanged between two PUDDINGs.]]
16:33:56 <ehird> "Hey, a properly-specified operation."
16:34:05 <ehird> "Perform iterative cypher transformation of set of names." is kinda vague.
16:34:26 <ehird> Somebody be interested!
16:36:36 <ehird> coppro: Stop being all O_o!
16:39:36 <ehird> A BI_IT is (2/3)+(log(3)/log(2)/2) bits...
16:40:33 <ehird> = log(432)/log(64)
16:42:06 <ehird> "A composite quantum state of information."
16:42:25 <ehird> So I guess the thing to do is to store the 2/3rds of a bit as one byte, and the half a trit as one byte too.
16:44:46 * ehird gives the struct members one-character names as otherwise they'd be really long
16:45:15 <ehird> Oh great, I have to have type tags too.
16:45:55 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
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16:50:59 <ehird> tagHYBRID_OBTAINED_BY_COMBINING
16:52:09 <ehird> "Exactly fifteen bytes, no exceptions."
16:52:10 <ehird> Great, so you need 5-byte pointers.
16:53:03 <coppro> just change the size of a byte
16:53:16 <ehird> I think what I'll do is
16:53:19 <coppro> one byte is 8/15ths of a bit
16:53:25 <ehird> char p1,p2,p3,p4,p5;
16:53:41 <ehird> The lower/upper/whatever bits of each are a few bits of the pointer.
16:53:50 <ehird> I could just pad it out, but it doesn't say pad anywhere.
16:54:05 <ehird> (The type is "TRIVIA CONCERNING type", "Three references: one to an object of the named type, two to TRIVIA objects.")
16:54:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:55:13 <ehird> "two to TRIVIA objects"
16:55:23 <ehird> I wonder if that means two TRIVIA CONCERNING objects, or two TRIVIA objects.
16:55:38 <coppro> it seems pretty clear to me
16:55:51 <ehird> coppro: Excuse me, have you read http://catseye.tc/projects/turkeyb/doc/turkeyb.html?
16:55:55 <ehird> Nothing in there is clear.
16:56:19 <ehird> ("A fraction whose numerator is a perfect square of a perfect square and whose denominator is a prime number whose ordinal position in the counting list of prime numbers is also prime.")
16:57:11 <ehird> OMG! Haskell 2010 removed n+k patterns!
16:59:28 <ehird> coppro: the worst part of turkey bomb is that since it translates some stuff about the drinking game into computer terms, you have to take note of the drinking game-related items in your implementation
17:12:40 <ehird> btw, coppro, seen http://killersmurf.blogspot.com/2009/11/typefuck.html?
17:12:49 <ehird> iirc you like type/template-hacks + haskell
17:21:03 <ehird> http://bit-player.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/grid15r0a.png
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17:56:27 <ehird> for(page in `{find . | grep -v '^\./jsMath' | grep '\.html$'})
17:56:27 <ehird> grep '<title>' $page | sed 's!</?title>!!g'
17:56:30 <ehird> Sins I have committed:
17:56:36 <ehird> 1. "Parsing" HTML with a regexp
17:56:47 <ehird> I'd have expected to commit more in such a rag-tag script.
17:59:07 * ehird removes the <h1> and makes the <title> visible instead. I am crazy.
18:01:23 <ehird> I wonder if it's kosher to do that.
18:05:40 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
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18:11:32 <uorygl> augur was actually asking for the supremum.
18:12:40 <uorygl> Which is e to the power of (pi times the square root of 163).
18:17:03 <augur> dont make me hurt you :|
18:18:25 <uorygl> Wait, no. 67, not 163.
18:19:36 <ehird> It'd be nice if there was a minimalist, command-line, open-source symbolic calculation system with sane syntax.
18:20:02 <ehird> You know, somewhere where you could type things like e^(pi*sqrt(163)) and be able to calculate it to arbitrary precision.
18:28:25 <augur> ehird, you should write that utility.
18:29:01 <ehird> I'm tempted to, and it wouldn't be all that hard to write the core language. But writing all the mathematical functions that go on top? And then rewriting them efficiently?
18:29:06 <ehird> I kinda lose interest at that point.
18:29:19 <augur> also, google does that.
18:29:54 <ehird> For one, it isn't symbolic. For two, its set of operations and functions is extremely limited. For three, it cannot calculate to arbitrary precision.
18:30:48 <coppro> symbolic math libraries inevitably become big and bulky
18:31:04 <ehird> Not a library, a language and core library.
18:31:13 <ehird> Existing non-symbolic languages would be hell to use for symbolic stuff.
18:31:22 <ehird> coppro: I don't see why. Their overall size, sure; simply due to their coverage.
18:31:26 <ehird> But the individual functions?
18:31:36 <uorygl> GHCi can accept syntax like e^(pi*sqrt(163)), but obviously, GHCi isn't minimalist.
18:31:42 <quantumEd> coppo kinda like algebra text books? :P
18:31:49 <ehird> uorygl: That isn't symbolic nor arbitrary precision.
18:31:56 <coppro> ehird: Bulky because there are a bunch of features you inevitably want to accept, like retrieving the simplest form
18:31:57 <uorygl> It can be arbitrary precision.
18:32:04 <uorygl> e^(pi*sqrt(163)) :: CReal
18:32:07 <quantumEd> th algorithms of algebra are really realyl hard stuff
18:32:09 <ehird> uorygl: Technically, yes; practically, no, because it's not symbolic!
18:32:18 <ehird> And CReal is far more limited than a symbolic system.
18:32:19 <quantumEd> I mean very involved in the basic case.. and then you have optimizations
18:32:27 <coppro> and I disagree that you couldn't do it in an existing language; a language with sufficiently-descriptive operators and overloading could do it fine
18:32:27 <ehird> You can actually compare symbolic things for equality, for instance.
18:32:36 <ehird> What is it with these people thinking a symbolic mathematics environment is the same as a calculator?!
18:32:42 <ehird> coppro: Yes, but not as comfortably.
18:33:04 <uorygl> I suppose GHCi could handle that symbolically as well.
18:33:05 <ehird> For instance, "a*pi*asdjads" giving that back instead of an undefined-name error? Not likely in a normal language.
18:33:12 <uorygl> e^(pi*sqrt(163)) :: Expr, or something.
18:33:18 <ehird> uorygl: Thus showing you don't know what making a symbolic environment entails — see above.
18:33:59 <uorygl> Did I claim that GHCi would accept strings like a*pi*asdjads?
18:34:13 <uorygl> Maybe I did; my conception of what "symbolic" means keeps changing.
18:34:34 <coppro> ehird: For instance, aside from the awkwardness of a lack of operators, you could do symbolic C++ pretty easily.
18:34:54 <augur> qs can almost do this
18:35:52 <augur> you should write a QS plugin
18:36:25 <ehird> augur: No, it can't almost do this, at all.
18:36:28 <ehird> Not even remotely.
18:36:37 <ehird> coppro: Quicksilver.
18:36:43 <ehird> OS X thing. It's for combining data and stuff.
18:37:10 <augur> you can type into qs _some_ stuff
18:37:15 <ehird> Like there's a calculate action that you can give 2+2, you can search the system for a file then email it to someone in one chain (like "somethinginthefilename<tab>email<tab>some name<enter>").
18:37:19 <ehird> It's nothing even remotely related to this.
18:37:25 <augur> and itll spit out 5
18:37:28 <ehird> coppro: Pretty easily, but it'd be uncomfortable to use.
18:37:34 <ehird> augur: THAT'S CALLED A FUCKING CALCULATOR >_<
18:37:44 <coppro> augur: That sounds like my Alt-F2
18:38:07 <coppro> ehird: yeah, it would be uncomfortable for complex maths
18:38:22 <coppro> and then on the other side of things, there's software like Sage
18:38:30 <coppro> which is so ridiculously complex that you almost explode
18:38:36 <augur> but calculator should be able to get everything but the pi part in e^(pi*sqrt(163))
18:39:02 <ehird> coppro: you know that sage is shit because it has its own livecd :)
18:39:02 <ehird> augur: Not to arbitrary precision.
18:39:03 <augur> except e^x would have to be exp(x)
18:39:03 <augur> oddly, i cant get =exp(2) to work...
18:39:05 <augur> but this is why you should create a math plugin!
18:39:06 <ehird> Not symbolically, so that the expression itself can be modified and compared.
18:39:21 <ehird> I won't be using OS X soon enough, and you could easily do it by making something that calls out to my tool.
18:39:22 <augur> because qs is the new commandline 8D
18:39:34 <ehird> Embedding software of massive complexity into such a prison is stupid.
18:39:41 <augur> oh, you're switching to a nix machine?
18:39:56 <ehird> Custom-assembled Linux.
18:39:59 <ehird> Nothing like most distros.
18:40:12 <ehird> Closer to my perfect OS than OS X.
18:40:54 <ehird> I'm going to be using minimalist, Unixy tools, so that the command-line and the filesystem actually become a viable tool for approaching the ehirdOS linguistic interface ideal.
18:40:55 <pikhq> Oh, wait. That distro you've been talking about.
18:42:29 <ehird> coppro: incidentally, the LiveCD litmus test also works for rejecting Asterisk
18:42:56 <coppro> Linux is clearly shit then
18:43:52 <ehird> Linux isn't a program.
18:46:10 <ehird> A sitemap script written in the rc shell. Well, that's a first.
18:46:24 <ehird> (I'm trying to get my shit together and actually publish some stuff on the interwebnets.)
18:50:58 <ehird> I'm pretty sure making an element in <head> visible is a sin of some kind.
18:52:13 <ehird> I'm attempting to manually write the pages, and the overhead I have with <h1> gone is just a few simple lines
18:52:36 <ehird> <title>WHATEVER THE TITLE IS</title>
18:52:36 <ehird> <link rel=stylesheet href=/style.css>
18:52:51 <ehird> <address><a href=/>Elliott Hird</a></address>
18:53:12 <ehird> the only ones I have to "remember" are the stylesheet and address lines, as i know the rest
18:53:33 <ehird> but still, it feels a bit weird as i have to make <head> itself visible, then hide everything inside <head>, then unhide <title>...
18:58:03 -!- quantumEd has quit ("* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *").
18:59:34 <ehird> Dilution 1:10^60 - On average, this would require giving two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient
18:59:35 <ehird> Dilution 1:10^400 - Dilution of popular homeopathic flu remedy Oscillococcinum
19:00:54 <pikhq> "Oscillococcinum"? What the fuck does that mean?
19:01:00 <pikhq> "Oscillating cock"?
19:01:50 <ehird> It sounds MEDICAL!
19:01:54 <ehird> It must be MEDICINE!
19:04:51 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:07:18 <uorygl> Oscillo-: a prefix formed from "oscillating". Coccus: spherical bacterium. -In: a diminutive suffix. -Um: a Latin accusative suffic.
19:07:35 <uorygl> So it means "little oscillating spherical bacterium".
19:08:08 <uorygl> Presumably, -inum is a cute medicinal prefix, chosen in emulation of "platinum", which means "little silver".
19:09:34 -!- augur has joined.
19:21:00 * ehird decides he probably doesn't like the title-is-a-visible-element thing, considers reverting it back
19:23:48 <ehird> But on the other hand, writing out the title manually is bothersome. Gawd, I'm so indecisionful.
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19:40:01 * ehird realises his sitemap sorts in alphabetical order...
19:40:01 <ehird> ...on the filename
19:51:52 <uorygl> Don't fix it; it will be fascinating.
19:53:37 <ehird> uorygl: But it'll be quite annoying. "A defence of preemptive mutitasking" will appear under p, since it is preemptive.html.
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19:53:50 <ehird> I only need a sitemap because I'm eschewing on-page navigational aids, anyway.
19:53:58 <ehird> And that's just for simplicity.
19:54:17 <ehird> I may not even need a sitemap, if I can make the off-page navigational aids compelling and useful enough.
19:54:35 <ehird> By the way, I think I'm tempted to write that symbolic tool.
19:55:07 <ehird> The issue is that, like quantumEd said, the basic algebra algorithms I'd have to implement efficiently would be a huge bitch.
19:56:38 <uorygl> Hey, wait, you're making a web site?
19:56:42 <ehird> Oh, and even the simplest things like an algorithm to calculate pi efficiently to theh Nth place in any base are a bitch.
19:56:52 <ehird> uorygl: Yes; I'm trying to get my act together and start publishing stuff online.
19:57:08 <ehird> I wrote http://sprunge.us/RMJD for it.
19:57:31 <uorygl> Hey, you didn't reply sarcastically.
19:57:57 <ehird> I'm feeling in a particularly unsarcastic mood right now.
19:58:23 <ehird> Any particular reason why you asked me?
19:58:25 * uorygl ponders how to take advantage of this situation.
19:58:35 <uorygl> I guess I was interested in looking at it.
19:59:43 <ehird> I haven't actually written anything more than http://sprunge.us/RMJD for it, so imagine the *text in asterisks* is bold, the underlined text is heading-sized and bold, and it's all in a non-monospaced font.
20:02:07 <uorygl> Your conclusion is probably correct in most cases.
20:02:48 <ehird> In what cases is it incorrect?
20:03:19 <ehird> I can think of embedded systems as one: all tasks are generally from the same source, and resources are limited enough that minimising unnecessary task-switching is a big plus.
20:03:22 <uorygl> If one process legitimately decides that it needs a lot of processing power for a little while.
20:04:53 <ehird> uorygl: Most systems nowadays are multi-core or even multi-CPU.
20:05:19 <ehird> A task can be dedicated to a CPU and have it to itself while the other tasks switch on the other coress.
20:05:23 <ehird> *dedicated to a core
20:05:56 <ehird> Anyway, that advantage isn't big enough to make up for the effort. Today's supercomputing is done on systems that use preemptive multitasking, and it works fine.
20:06:12 <uorygl> We're not really contradicting each other, here.
20:06:40 <ehird> Hey, the average salary for a Haskell job is $198,000.
20:08:24 <uorygl> That's almost anomalously nice.
20:08:48 <ehird> Well, it's a very specialised skill and not many people want it.
20:08:51 <uorygl> (Gee, that word looks a lot like a misspelling.)
20:09:06 <ehird> Companies like Galois do heavy-duty reliable systems and the like, so that's high-salary already.
20:09:25 <ehird> They also happen to be one of the main users of, and contributors to, Haskell.
20:13:02 <ehird> Aww; nhttpd appears to not be able to look up foo.html when /foo does not exist.
20:13:20 <ehird> So I can't get nice urls like http://domain.org/preemptive for preemptive.html.
20:17:47 <uorygl> Does an HTTP response tell you what the filename is?
20:20:58 <ehird> uorygl's queries doth confuse.
20:30:07 <Asztal> But it can with Content-Disposition: Attachment; filename=blah.gif
20:30:13 <Asztal> (Or something like that)
20:30:43 <Asztal> Of course, your browser then shows a download dialog instead of the actual file.
20:34:01 <Asztal> http://pastie.org/729863.txt?key=ywp02s8p8potpiakeo6q <- Parsec in C#. It's a lot uglier without full type inference. :(
20:36:33 <ehird> addOp = ('+'.ToParser().Select<Func<int, int, int>>(c => (x, y) => x + y))
20:36:34 <ehird> | ('-'.ToParser().Select<Func<int, int, int>>(c => (x, y) => x - y));
20:36:53 <ehird> Anyone have an opinion on digit separators in a symbolic mathematics language?
20:37:02 <ehird> I'm considering allowing 1,000,000 and the like, just with commas.
20:37:02 <Asztal> Yeah, it can't infer Select's type parameter from the lambda expression :(
20:37:08 <ehird> (Europeans can go fuck off yo)
20:37:27 <Asztal> I think 1_000_000 is good enough
20:37:43 <ehird> Asztal: In a programming language, yes.
20:37:46 <ehird> In a mathematics environment?
20:38:06 <ehird> it's just that, getting a result like
20:38:13 <ehird> -(log(2)/1,063,382,396,627,932,698,323,045,648,242,756,608)
20:38:14 <ehird> back is obviously preferable to any other way of formatting the number
20:38:17 <uorygl> 1 timesOneThousandPlus 000 timesOneThousandPlus 000
20:38:57 <Asztal> But what's log(1,000,000)? Computers don't have common sense :(
20:39:22 <ehird> Asztal: I could require that to be log(1,000, 000) or whatever.
20:39:26 <ehird> But indeed, that is ugly.
20:39:37 <ehird> One option is spaces, but it's a non-option; spaces are multiplication.
20:39:41 <uorygl> Anyway, for digit separators, I think ' is the most practical.
20:39:56 <ehird> uorygl: That's weirder than _, but might just work.
20:39:58 <uorygl> It's actually in use, and I can't immediately think of any other use for it in math.
20:40:35 <Asztal> Sucks for the people taking the derivatives of constants, I guess
20:40:55 <uorygl> Ah, but numbers aren't functions. You *can't* take their derivative.
20:41:07 <ehird> Yeah, okay; ' it is.
20:41:11 <uorygl> Unless, you know, you're in automatically-treat-things-as-being-of-different-types-land.
20:41:31 <uorygl> (What's {1, 2, 3} + 5? {6, 7, 8}, of course.)
20:41:51 <ehird> Works in Mathematica, and probably other environments too.
20:42:10 <ehird> That's more sets/lists/whatever being magic, though,.
20:42:22 <coppro> uorygl: Depending on your definition, you can take their derivative; it's just monumentally unexciting.
20:42:33 <uorygl> Haskell doesn't like that magic. Haskell likes to make that magic unnecessary.
20:42:50 <ehird> Haskell fails at it, at least in this context.
20:43:34 <uorygl> I can conceive of a less faily way to do that.
20:44:38 <ehird> That's not How Things Work, though. You don't have to explicitly specify that, but in Haskell you do.
20:44:59 * ehird finds himself trying to avoid Mathematica's names for things, even when they're good.
20:45:01 <ehird> Stop that, stupidhird.
20:45:32 <uorygl> My inner math platonist says that in most cases, Things Work How Haskell works.
20:45:52 <uorygl> (Math platonists are silly.)
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20:50:18 <ehird> Strange. I can't get Mathematica to give me a number without a x 10^-foo at the end.
20:50:21 <ehird> It's not hard, Mathematica.
20:52:12 <uorygl> Multiply every number by 10^10^10.
20:53:32 * ehird makes a concession to computerism by representing the multiplication sign as *.
20:53:35 <ehird> Sorry, x; you're ambiguous.
20:54:28 <uorygl> 10^10^10 is 10^(10^10) because (10^10)^10 is 10^(10*10).
20:54:35 * ehird wonders how silly it is to put digit separators after the decimal point.
20:54:51 <uorygl> Not so silly that there's a practical reason not to.
20:55:44 <uorygl> Remember that the convention after the decimal point is to use one every eight digits.
20:56:07 <ehird> Hey, Mathematica does it.
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20:56:58 <ehird> Which begs the question, should it be padded out?
20:57:04 <ehird> i.e. -6.518'324'76 or -6.518'324'760?
20:57:15 <ehird> The latter is more understandable but... feels like it's straying from the purpose of displaying a number.
20:57:22 <ehird> I mean, there's no point putting a dud 0 there.
20:58:31 <uorygl> Not padding it out gives you a certain feeling under certain circumstances, i.e. makes something clearer.
20:58:42 <ehird> http://pastie.org/729983.txt?key=rl9toh4jbce5llyo0eguba
20:58:43 <ehird> I present to you an imaginary session with my tool.
20:58:51 <uorygl> It makes a really useless piece of information clearer, but at least it does make it clearer.
20:59:05 <ehird> $ = result of last line, $$ = result of previous line
20:59:11 <uorygl> Imagine if all traffic lights were white for the sake of elegance.
20:59:13 <ehird> i'll probably have up to $$$$
20:59:24 <ehird> then maybe a function for everything prior
20:59:52 <ehird> I wonder how draw() will do for more complex expressions.
21:00:02 <ehird> Certainly the code for that will be a bitch.
21:00:10 <uorygl> It would be kind of nice if your syntax allowed $ to be a function operating on itself when concatenated directly like that.
21:00:13 <ehird> I'll need a whole layout system.
21:00:19 <ehird> uorygl: like $($)?
21:00:28 <ehird> well, $ is just a regular identifier character
21:00:34 <uorygl> Semantically $($), syntactically just $.
21:00:41 <uorygl> But it would probably be too complicated.
21:00:44 <ehird> Syntactically just $$ you mean.
21:00:45 <ehird> I could have function multiplication = application.
21:01:22 <ehird> Maybe even x f → a function taking y and returning f(x,y).
21:01:32 <ehird> So you could do $ $ $ and have it... be ambiguous.
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21:01:36 <uorygl> Traditionally, function multiplication is composition, since composition is actually associative. Then again, Haskell points out that f x meaning f(x) is really elegant.
21:01:36 <ehird> I think I'll scrap that idea.
21:01:59 <ehird> Yeah, I think having f g work as composition would be cool.
21:02:00 <uorygl> Remind me why putting things next to each other means multiplication rather than addition or something.
21:02:11 <ehird> uorygl: For convenience in algebra when doing 2a and the like.
21:02:30 <ehird> Anyway, it does, so that's how I'm doin' it.
21:02:39 <uorygl> Math notation seems really arbitrary.
21:02:49 <ehird> It's also quite pretty and convenient.
21:03:08 <ehird> uorygl: I'm considering letting $ be both a value and a function somehow.
21:03:10 <pikhq> uorygl: Well, f (x) == f x in Haskell.
21:03:16 <ehird> So $ = $(1), $$ = $(2), etc.
21:03:25 <pikhq> f (x,y), of course, is quite different from f x y.
21:03:25 <ehird> That'd be $$ is a separate variable.
21:03:39 <ehird> But $(x) is the xth last line of history, and $ by itself is $(0).
21:03:48 <ehird> The issue with that idea is that you can't pass around $ the function.
21:03:59 <uorygl> This operation's going to have a symbol. This one's going to have a symbol, but it's going to be optional. This one's going to have a symbol that the operands go above and below instead of beside. This one's going to have a symbol that extends above the top of its operand. This one's not going to have a symbol at all.
21:04:31 <uorygl> I wonder if there's any point in trying to reinvent math notation. I suppose it is what computer systems do all the time.
21:04:37 <ehird> I think division as two rows separated by a line was created to break up the unending linear monotony. :P
21:05:25 <ehird> I wonder if the word "division" to mean separation predated or postdated the use of a line separating two rows to represent division.
21:07:19 <ehird> In[35]:= FullSimplify[
21:07:19 <ehird> a^n + b^n == c^n, {Element[a, Integers], Element[b, Integers],
21:07:20 <ehird> Element[c, Integers], Element[n, Integers], a > 0, b > 0, c > 0,
21:07:21 <uorygl> "Hi, seawolf.cis.orsum.edu." "Hey, munroe.nasa.gov. I've been having some ideas about math notation." "Great, can you send them to me raw on TCP port 12020?" "Well, they total 3.6 gigabytes. I think you'll want me to just explain them to you."
21:07:28 <ehird> "Mathematica: Yep, we know Fermat's Last Theorem."
21:07:34 <ehird> "Can calculate that in less than a second, us."
21:08:17 <uorygl> The thing about theorems is that in general, they're easier to verify than to find in the first place.
21:08:27 <ehird> uorygl: You should click http://pastie.org/729983.txt?key=rl9toh4jbce5llyo0eguba because you are a bad person if you haven't.
21:08:37 * ehird ponders draw()ing something more complex
21:09:18 <uorygl> How semblant of Mathematica.
21:09:41 <uorygl> (I wonder why we're allowed to say "semblant" instead of "resemblant" but not "semble" instead of "resemble".)
21:10:16 <uorygl> (Why is it pronounced "rezemble"? "Semblant" isn't pronounced that way, is it?)
21:12:30 <ehird> uorygl: How does it resemble Mathematica, other than being a symbolic mathematical computerthingy?
21:12:37 <ehird> And, okay, D and N as function names.
21:12:57 <ehird> http://pastie.org/729994.txt?key=f2ktaru6ipl0umkusliusw
21:12:58 <ehird> How should derivatives be drawn by default? YOUR OPINION IS MORE VALUABLE THAN SALT
21:13:15 <ehird> Hmm, I guess one alternative I didn't list there is f'(x).
21:14:08 <ehird> The whole point of draw is that it uses ASCII smarts to draw the mathematical notation :P
21:14:34 <ehird> Implementing it will be "fun"... I think it'll require an entire layout engine to handle nested expressions.
21:14:34 <uorygl> Anyway, the only notations that look like the inputs are the second and the fifth.
21:14:47 <uorygl> And I'm pretty sure the second is more common.
21:15:20 <uorygl> What would something like (1/2)^3 draw as?
21:16:05 <ehird> Also, looking like the input isn't a huge deal.
21:16:14 <ehird> The whole point is so that you can examine an expression... mathematically.
21:16:46 <uorygl> How would the other notations handle D(x^2, x)?
21:17:06 <ehird> Sec, lemme handle the (1/2)^3 first.
21:17:35 <ehird> http://pastie.org/729997.txt?key=0lv8wukto6chcghrhldzw
21:17:38 <uorygl> Here's Epigram's strange way of doing (1/2)^3, by the way: http://pastebin.ca/1703894
21:17:44 <ehird> It would look like one of these, none of which are particularly satisfying.
21:18:14 <ehird> Now for your D(x^2, x) query.
21:18:21 <Asztal> That's reminiscent of the C++ library for representing numbers by box-drawing.
21:18:29 <ehird> Asztal: What does it do?
21:18:37 <ehird> uorygl: I don't think there's a Unicode character that would help.
21:19:00 <uorygl> Box drawing characters!
21:19:15 <uorygl> Bezier curves! Wait, no.
21:19:40 <uorygl> I guess my favorite one there is the parentheses-only one, because it uses only parentheses.
21:20:08 <ehird> uorygl: Incidentally, Mathematica's TraditionalForm does it as (rendering to ASCII here):
21:20:25 <ehird> With the d being the actual funny curly d.
21:20:42 <ehird> It handles the f(x) case with s/x^2/f(x)/.
21:20:52 <ehird> I think that's the most common representation, actually.
21:21:09 <uorygl> What a funny, curly way of drawing that.
21:21:26 <Asztal> ehird: I can't find it, but it looks something like this: http://pastie.org/730002
21:21:26 <uorygl> I'm pretty sure the most common representation is d/dx with the thingy after it.
21:22:00 <Asztal> oh, wait, found it. http://www.xs4all.nl/~weegen/eelis/analogliterals.xhtml
21:22:16 <ehird> http://pastie.org/730003.txt?key=z1fpulfpftxpnwckw4r9ma
21:22:21 <ehird> Out of curiosity, how does Epigram handle it?
21:22:35 <uorygl> Asztal: that's mighty strange.
21:22:40 <uorygl> ehird: how does Epigram handle what?
21:23:15 <uorygl> It's not for math, so it doesn't have any syntax for that.
21:24:36 <ehird> http://pastie.org/730005.txt?key=vzaayu7at3t3lfvthl8q
21:24:42 <ehird> Final contendors for derivative drawing.
21:25:18 <ehird> I like them all equally, I think. I think I very marginally prefer dx to d x, but the skewed alignment caused by using dx almost cancels that out.
21:25:40 <ehird> Btw, there probably won't be any way of actually parsing draw()s output. I'm not *that* crazy.
21:27:33 <ehird> #1 is probably the leasst conventional notation.
21:27:41 <ehird> That biases me against it, but it is rather clean.
21:27:56 <ehird> However, imagine if the derivatived expression contains a division.
21:28:03 <ehird> #1 would look really weird, but the others wouldn't.
21:28:37 <uorygl> My instant runoff vote: 3, 1, 2.
21:29:34 <ehird> Instant runoff voting is amusingly useless when you're the only voter.
21:30:06 <ehird> Any reason you prefer #3 to #2? It's more conventional to have no space, but it's also conventional to, you know, not actually use the Latin letter "d"; and the space helps align the top line.
21:30:11 <ehird> It is weirder-looking, though, I admit.
21:30:26 <ehird> No fan of 4 and 5 I see.
21:30:52 <uorygl> #2 looks kind of like a guy standing in a really awkward pose.
21:31:25 * ehird puts in a fun division into the equation to test each one.
21:31:41 <uorygl> It's conventional to not actually use the Latin letter "d"?
21:31:47 <ehird> uorygl: You use the weird curly d.
21:32:19 <uorygl> An actual, ordinary d is more common.
21:32:40 <uorygl> Specifically, ordinary d is the total derivative (a.k.a. "the derivative"), and curly d is the partial derivative.
21:33:01 <ehird> Okay, #1 fails horribly trying to do D(f(x)/g(2^x), x).
21:33:10 <ehird> uorygl: Hmm, right, that's just Mathematica fucking with me.
21:33:22 <ehird> I wonder how I'll represent le partiality in ASCII.
21:34:11 <uorygl> ?d, because ? vaguely resembles a curling iron.
21:34:22 <ehird> uorygl: Another poll (I hope your IRC is monospaced for this):
21:34:45 <ehird> The first looks weird to me, the second very slightly confusing.
21:35:28 <uorygl> The second definitely has confusion potential.
21:35:43 <uorygl> The first one is bigger, so it's better.
21:36:02 <ehird> Nah, the first one is really hard to read IMO.
21:37:16 <ehird> http://pastie.org/730013.txt?key=r1dtedsmra4rfjswrynhq
21:37:25 <ehird> In which all of them fail horribly.
21:37:30 <ehird> Uh, the first line has a repetition there.
21:37:56 <ehird> I'd say 2 and 3 fared the best there; 1 the worst.
21:38:20 <uorygl> 1 could definitely fare better.
21:38:33 <uorygl> It's a subscript following the D, not preceding the expression.
21:39:23 <ehird> You'll notice I added more spacing to all of them but one.
21:39:40 <ehird> I think the layout engine will, when confronted with putting a division or other block next to another thing, add another space.
21:40:05 <ehird> http://pastie.org/730017.txt?key=vxyaitcstugqz67yca1bw
21:40:15 <ehird> 1 does quite well now; about as well as 2 and 3.
21:40:25 <ehird> 2 and 3 are still more common notations, I believe.
21:41:01 <uorygl> I like the first three better than the last two, because they go before the expression rather than around it.
21:41:14 <uorygl> Thereby taking up less room and staying out of the way.
21:41:27 <ehird> I agree; the last two suck gigantic donkey balls. To use a metaphor.
21:42:03 <uorygl> Same as before, I think. 3, 1, 2.
21:42:08 <ehird> "Concur is like conquer without a q, and it has a c, and doesn't have that e between those two letters at the end."
21:42:13 <uorygl> Since, you know, they're not really different.
21:42:22 <ehird> Yeah, they're exactly the same layout-wise.
21:42:24 <ehird> Just a different prefix.
21:42:41 <uorygl> Different from how they were before you made it fractiony, I mean.
21:42:51 <uorygl> Also, the words are pronounced differently and mean different things.
21:43:04 <ehird> And are different.
21:44:17 <ehird> uorygl: Do you think I should make the layout engine able to output to multiple different formats? It seems like at the end of it, the conversion to ASCII would be a relatively small part.
21:44:25 <ehird> This is all hypothetical right now, of course.
21:44:37 <uorygl> Wait, really? You're telling me that these differently-spelled, differently-pronounced words that mean different things are *different*?
21:45:06 <uorygl> It probably would be a good idea to make the layout engine able to output to multiple different formats, in the end.
21:45:17 <uorygl> But I would think you should do more necessary things first.
21:45:22 <ehird> draw() will probably be like half the code :-P
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21:45:41 * ehird wonders how to do conditionals
21:45:50 <ehird> Mathematica-style if(a,b,c) seems so ugly, but it is rather orthogonaly.
21:47:27 <uorygl> What's wrong with "if x then y else c"?
21:47:36 <uorygl> (Notice my clever choice of letters.)
21:48:55 * ehird spends a few minutes trying to find a relevant quote
21:52:25 * ehird ponders product().
21:53:38 <ehird> And sum(), by extension.
21:53:40 <ehird> fact(n) := product(k, 1, n, k) Not enough definition.
21:53:40 <ehird> fact(n) := product(k := 1, n, k) Weird use of assignment syntax.
21:53:40 <ehird> fact(n) := product(k := {1, n}, k) That's not actually what it's assigning k to.
21:53:40 <ehird> fact(n) := product(k, {1, n}, k) I can wrap arguments in braces, too.
21:55:49 <ehird> uorygl: I think I will adopt if x then y else c as the if syntax.
21:55:58 <ehird> It'll just be sugar for if(x,y,c). I think.
21:59:19 <ehird> My function argument syntax doesn't allow for pattern matching on symbolic arguments. Mathematica solves this by making you mark every variable argument by suffixing it with _, but I don't like that
21:59:25 <ehird> Maybe {} means match.
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21:59:39 <ehird> foo({bar}) := quux
21:59:49 <ehird> foo(xyzzy) → xyzzy
22:00:26 <ehird> A bunch of identical factorials: http://pastie.org/730035.txt?key=cjgts9swnsynq9tyfmociq
22:00:38 <ehird> The last one is amusing.
22:04:25 <uorygl> productAs \k goesFrom 1 to n of k
22:04:28 <uorygl> I'll stop bothering you now.
22:04:40 <ehird> uorygl: I don't consider that bothering.
22:04:49 <ehird> The reason I used that definition is because I was mumbling on how to do product(). :P
22:05:12 <ehird> Oh, an issue with your if syntax, or perhaps with my lack of semicolons: if you have
22:05:18 <ehird> fact(n) := if n = 1 then 1
22:05:23 <ehird> you don't know if the statement's over
22:05:30 <ehird> there could be an else on the next line
22:05:46 <uorygl> What Would Haskell Do?
22:06:05 <ehird> Have a very complex, hard-to-code-without-an-editor layout system.
22:06:45 * uorygl ponders what Agda would do.
22:06:58 <lament> more languages should have "easy to code without an editor" as a design goal
22:07:08 <uorygl> Maybe just having semicolons is what you should do.
22:07:29 <ehird> uorygl: But that bothers you when you just want to calculate 2+2 and the like.
22:07:36 <ehird> And it gives an impression of statement-ness to expressions.
22:08:02 <ehird> lament: I'm not sure that's true. It is a goal for mine, though, because the primary use is via the command-line tool.
22:08:04 <uorygl> Well, it doesn't have to be an actual semicolon; it could be the word "please". :-P
22:08:54 <uorygl> Have no such thing as statements, and make every program be one huge expression!
22:08:55 <ehird> Say, it would be interesting to have an implementation that used an HTTP server to serve a little HTML+CSS+JS page with a prompt ajaxin' to /evaluate (or whatever), so that all the draw()-style output becomes HTML tables and the like.
22:09:07 <ehird> I need to sleep soon.
22:09:14 <ehird> uorygl: There are no such things as statement.
22:09:36 <ehird> a;b is just an expression that evaluates a, disregards the result, and evaluates b.
22:09:46 <ehird> And expressions can be empty, so you can do {a;b;c;}.
22:10:44 <uorygl> So you've already implemented my suggestion! Scary1
22:11:03 <ehird> It's the obvious thing to do. Even Ruby does it.
22:11:46 <uorygl> Say, I just got a rather silly idea: plaintext markup syntax stuff.
22:12:11 <uorygl> It would render to ASCII art.
22:13:32 <uorygl> <rows><r>x<sup>n</sup></r><r><fill>-</fill></r><r>n!</r></rows>
22:14:12 <ehird> That'll be basically what the internal data structures of my layout engine will have.
22:15:59 <uorygl> Will the sizes of rectangles be determined entirely bottom-up-ly, or will there be some top-down-ness as well?
22:17:29 <uorygl> Do you share my idea of what a "rectangle" is?
22:18:04 <uorygl> Probably a lot like HTML's blocks. Rectangular shapes that the stuff is made of.
22:18:26 <ehird> Expand bottom-up-ly, top-down-ness, determining of sizes of rectangles.
22:19:26 <uorygl> Suppose I have some subexpression. Will the dimensions of its bounding rectangle be determined entirely by the subexpression itself or also its surroundings?
22:20:26 <ehird> Entirely by the subexpression itself. However, the dimensions of the parent, and spacing of the surroundings, will change.
22:23:18 <ehird> In that hypothetical HTTP/HTML/CSS/JS interface I mentioned, it should have an interface to the documentation so that you can click on an example and it switches to the prompt, with the example filled in.
22:30:07 <ehird> It bothers me that the simple stuff is so subtle.
22:30:16 <uorygl> This makes me want to work on my project thing. And when I think "work on my project", I think "figure out how to formalize functions".
22:30:22 <ehird> Because that means the complex stuff won't just be complex, it'll be incredibly subtle.
22:30:30 <ehird> uorygl: Symbolically!
22:30:41 <ehird> Manipulating symbolic expressions is both slow and elegant and useful
22:31:37 <ehird> Then a function is just an expression with a free variable.
22:32:09 <ehird> Well, free expression; f(x) could be a free expression if x is defined but f(x) isn'tt.
22:32:14 <ehird> Calling a function is just applying a table of expression→expression.
22:32:48 <ehird> A more traditional function = parameter list + expression; parameter list is turned into a table in the obvious way and applied to the expression.
22:32:59 <uorygl> I want to be theoretically sound, since my project is centered on a theorem prover.
22:33:12 <ehird> Yes, well, just theoreticise my statements.
22:33:14 <uorygl> If a function were just an expression with a free variable, there wouldn't even be uncountably many functions.
22:33:39 <ehird> One or more free expressions.
22:33:47 <ehird> Well, in fact, a function is an expression.
22:33:58 <ehird> It's just that you can't really do a meaningful replacement without a free expression.
22:34:06 <uorygl> Well, I could say that a function is an expression with two free variables combined with a set that fills one of them in.
22:34:21 <ehird> Why two? Why free variable (that's not symbolic)?
22:34:27 <ehird> You need free expression for f(x).
22:34:54 <ehird> e.g. in f(2), we can fill in f(2) -> 4 or f({placeholder x}) -> x*2 and get 4 back.
22:35:09 <ehird> That's how symbolic computation works: everything is a rewrite rule.
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22:35:26 <uorygl> I have a pet function named Bob. For every real number x, Bob(x) is a real number taken randomly from the standard normal distribution.
22:35:34 <ehird> There's no "functions" as separate objects per se, although of course you can pass f and then the function does f(x) and since f rewrites to SomeFunction it becomes SomeFunction(x).
22:35:54 <uorygl> I *definitely* want functions to be values here.
22:35:55 <ehird> If functions are a thing in themselves, e.g. in the lambda calculus, it's not symbolic.
22:36:16 <ehird> Well, symbolic languages can have lambdas too, they're just done as a rewriting rule. :P
22:36:30 <uorygl> Because I want S -> T to actually be a type, because it means something as a mathematical sentence.
22:36:38 <uorygl> (Namely, "S implies T".)
22:36:45 <ehird> I think it's done as a rewrite rule of lambda(x,y)(z) to replace(x,z,y)
22:36:54 <ehird> which does the replacement thingy from lambda-calculus
22:37:05 <ehird> but yeah, this isn't suitable for a theorem prover
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22:41:05 <ehird> Well, musing about this sure is fun. I guess if I get off my ass and spend peopleyears (Post-feminist adaptation of manyears, dude. I mean, uh, ... associate.) of work on it, it might be a viable alternative to... an old version of Mathematica.
22:41:20 <ehird> Oh well, all I want is a fun symbolic computation environment that isn't really weird like Mathematica and isn't really archaic like Axiom and the like.
22:41:25 <ehird> See you for today.
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00:44:01 <oerjan> hm, the logs have changed their timezone...
00:47:12 <oerjan> looks like they moved to china...
00:47:28 <oerjan> it's either that, or perth
00:48:37 <oerjan> no wait, perth would have daylight saving
00:50:28 <oerjan> wikipedia is confusing. as is perth.
00:50:36 <OxE6> oranges are too
00:50:46 <oerjan> "A referendum held on May 19 2009 concluded that daylight saving will not be held in the future."
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00:55:32 <oerjan> ok there _may_ be a few other insignificant countries in that time zone
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02:04:53 <oklofok> ehird: I wonder how draw() will do for more complex expressions. <<< actually it's pretty simple to do it, basically you just do dynamic programming on expressions, and for each, store the size of the bounding box for the pic, combining them is just a matter of trivial.
02:09:17 <oklofok> uorygl: Remind me why putting things next to each other means multiplication rather than addition or something. <<< it's because of a(b + c) = ab + ac; a + bc = (a + b)(a + c) looks too aggressive!
02:09:57 <AnMaster> oklofok, the latter one can't be correct. err...
02:10:18 <AnMaster> wait, was that with no operator = + ?
02:13:36 <oklofok> uorygl: The thing about theorems is that in general, they're easier to verify than to find in the first place. <<< yes, but that's not what mathematica can do, it can *use* the theorem.
02:14:19 <AnMaster> oklofok, your client uses : for what someone said?
02:15:02 <AnMaster> oklofok: because it is often used to address someone (like this, though I set my client to use , normally for tab completion)
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02:18:22 <AnMaster> oklofok, anyway, how is a + bc = (a + b)(a + c) supposed to work? What was the implicit operator there?
02:20:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> Oh well, all I want is a fun symbolic computation environment that isn't really weird like Mathematica and isn't really archaic like Axiom and the like.
02:20:39 <oklofok> ehird: Uh, why not? <<< because there is a countable amount of pairs like that, consider a base 257 number, each function can be considered a distinct number in that base => at most |N| functions
02:22:29 <oklofok> AnMaster: yes, it's confusing
02:22:47 <oklofok> it confused someone just the other day
02:23:06 <oklofok> AnMaster: oklofok, anyway, how is a + bc = (a + b)(a + c) supposed to work? What was the implicit operator there? <<< reversing addition and multiplication
02:23:53 <oklofok> anyway, that starts looking natural after doing a bit of boolean algebra, it isn't exactly inferior in any way
02:25:15 <oklofok> yeah that's just distributivity of * over +, a(b + c) = ab + ac
02:25:38 <AnMaster> oklofok, so you say "(a + b)(a + c)" would be same as normal "ac+ab"?
02:25:48 <AnMaster> because then you missed one c above
02:27:27 <AnMaster> oklofok, just that I think it should be "ac" not "a" in the first term in: a + bc = (a + b)(a + c)
02:27:56 <AnMaster> this uncommon notation sure is confusing!
02:28:43 <AnMaster> oklofok, oh wait, you said boolean algebra?
02:29:47 <oklofok> ab + bc would be (a + b)(b + c) in normal notation = (a + b)(c + b) = ac + ab + bc + b^2, which in reversed notation is (a + c)(a + b)(b + c)(b + b)
02:29:50 <oklofok> so no, that's not the same
02:29:58 <oklofok> i mean that's not what i meant
02:30:26 <oklofok> if you reverse notations, reversed a + bc is normal a(b + c) = ab + ac, which is reversed (a + b)(a + c)
02:30:38 <oklofok> and in boolean algebra, it's directly a rule
02:30:45 <AnMaster> so that is a V (b ^ c) = (a V b) ^ (a V c) which seems.... almost but not quite correct? (^ doesn't work too well there... but can't be bothered to find the unicode codepoint)
02:31:56 <AnMaster> oklofok, I always had problems remembering that law: if it was ^ or V that went between them
02:31:59 <oklofok> if you use ^ and V, it's less confusing because the symmetry is more visible
02:32:24 <oklofok> everything that is true in boolean algebra is true if you reverse them
02:32:25 <AnMaster> oklofok, well yeah but I mean if: a V (b ^ c) = (a V b) ^ (a V c) or V (b ^ c) = (a ^ b) V (a ^ c)
02:32:35 <oklofok> and reverse constant 1's and 0's
02:33:32 <oklofok> alright think of it like this
02:33:58 <oklofok> in "a V (b ^ c)", you're doing "a and (expression of b and c)"
02:34:17 <oklofok> then you just do the "a and" thing inside the expression instead of doing it to the result
02:34:31 <oklofok> and you get expression of (a and b) and (a and c)
02:34:54 <oklofok> i'm not sure that's helpful, i just think of it as outside => inside
02:35:00 <AnMaster> well that is and in both cases
02:35:27 <AnMaster> <oklofok> in "a V (b ^ c)", you're doing "a and (expression of b and c)" <-- is actually: a or (b and c)
02:35:29 <oklofok> well "a V (b ^ c) = (a ^ b) V (a ^ c)" <<< this here makes no sense
02:36:19 <oklofok> a ^ (b ^ c) = (a ^ b) ^ (a ^ c) is also a valid rule
02:36:37 <AnMaster> oklofok, well yes. But that again isn't the same as discussed here
02:37:57 <AnMaster> oklofok, this is the distributivity stuff I'm talking about.
02:38:11 <AnMaster> I think it is probably a V (b ^ c) = (a V b) ^ (a V c) then
02:38:37 <oklofok> yes, the point is the expression does not change
02:38:45 <oklofok> i thought that was still clear from what i said, but apparently not
02:39:07 <AnMaster> oklofok, it is just something I trouble memorizing for tests and such.
02:39:31 <oklofok> hmm.. you do know a(b + c) = ab + ac right?
02:39:58 <oklofok> i mean that's really the exact same rule, it's just in boolean algebra you can put * = and, + = or, or just as well + = and, * = or
02:40:03 <AnMaster> oklofok, well yes, that is trivial in normal math. the issue is in boolean algebra and "whatever the English name is for the ^ and V notation"
02:41:36 <oklofok> you have a(b + c) = ab + ac, put ^=*, V=+ and you get a ^ (b V c) = (a ^ b) V (a ^ c)
02:41:59 <AnMaster> oklofok, that was most helpful indeed
02:43:01 <AnMaster> oklofok, but (a+b)(c+d) doesn't work the same as in "normal" math does it?
02:43:42 <oklofok> (a+b)(c+d) meaning (a V b) ^ (c V d) or what do you mean?
02:43:49 <AnMaster> and what about (a+b)(a-b) = aa-bb
02:44:12 <AnMaster> oklofok, which would expand to (in normal math):
02:44:30 <oklofok> it works the same, (a+b)(c+d) = a(c+d) + b(c+d) = ac + ad + bc + bd
02:45:16 <oklofok> BUT also ab + ac = (a + ac)(b + ac) = (a + a)(a + c)(b + a)(b + c)
02:45:44 <AnMaster> oklofok, I'm pretty sure rules don't work the same the other way though. not (a V b) = (not a) ^ (not b)
02:45:50 <oklofok> again probably easier to see how that works if you use ^ and V, i'm just not used to the notation
02:45:56 <AnMaster> for one thing, how would not translate?
02:46:01 <oklofok> (a+b)(a-b) = aa-bb <<< is this an axiom?
02:46:30 <oklofok> -b is usually an element such that b + (-b) = 0
02:46:40 <oklofok> these do not exist in boolean algebra
02:46:46 <AnMaster> oklofok, well, I meant (a+b)(a-b) == (a^2)-(b^2)
02:47:10 <oklofok> and it's nonsensical in boolean algebra.
02:47:24 <AnMaster> not an axiom of course, just follows as a result from other rules
02:47:47 <oklofok> yes, but subtraction simply does not exist in boolean algebra
02:48:51 <oklofok> you can think of it like this, all objects are nonnegative, and less than one (not literally, just a mnemonic ofc), so addition always gets you closer to 1, and multiplication gets you away from it, towards 0
02:49:00 <oklofok> objects = elements in your algebra
02:49:25 <oklofok> you do know a boolean algebra is in fact any system whose elements follow these rules, and not just {0, 1} with some axioms added?
02:49:27 <AnMaster> oklofok, you can't use the (a+b)^2 == a^2+2ab+b^2 rule either I think.
02:50:19 <oklofok> (a+b)^2 = (a+b)(a+b) = a(a+b)+b(a+b) = aa + ab + ba + bb = a + b + ab, because both multiplication and addition are idempotent in BA
02:50:37 <oklofok> if you don't know that, ... = aa + bb + ab + ab
02:50:48 <AnMaster> <oklofok> you do know a boolean algebra is in fact any system whose elements follow these rules, and not just {0, 1} with some axioms added? <-- well yes, the same rules are at least in part shared with simple set theory
02:51:07 <AnMaster> if you do union = + and intersection = *
02:51:47 <oklofok> AnMaster: yes, and what's even more interesting (and, sadly, what makes finite boolean algebras uninteresting) is that in fact for each finite boolean algebra B, there is a set that's completely isomorphic to B
02:52:31 <AnMaster> what exactly does finite/infinite mean in *this* specific context?
02:52:58 <oklofok> isomorphism just meaning one-to-one correspondence between elements, and multiplication and addition work the exact same way in both systems
02:53:09 <AnMaster> well yes I know what isomorphism is.
02:53:14 <oklofok> AnMaster: same as always :)
02:53:17 <AnMaster> learnt it in graph theory stuff
02:53:20 -!- Leonidas has changed nick to Xeonidas.
02:53:21 <oklofok> finite would be like {1, 2, 5}
02:53:40 <AnMaster> oklofok, as the set of possible values?
02:54:02 <oklofok> formally, infinite <==> there is a proper subset that can be put in bijection with the original set
02:54:34 <AnMaster> oklofok, oh that's an interesting and very useful definition of infinite. You learn something new every day :)
02:55:11 <oklofok> AnMaster: basically what a boolean algebra is is a set where you have some dudes, and you have these rules called "and", "or" and "not". the axioms just limit what sort of mappings they can form between the elements
02:55:21 <oklofok> finite just means there's a finite amount of dudes
02:55:38 <AnMaster> oklofok, usually Mr. True and Miss False? ;P
02:56:13 <oklofok> also not "not", more like complement
02:56:25 <oklofok> well, you don't really need an actual operator for it
02:56:25 <AnMaster> oklofok, but then what about the set of real numbers. Is there such a subset for it?
02:57:03 <AnMaster> well, maybe you can form a bijection without starting somewhere.
02:57:32 <oklofok> AnMaster: yes, we could take all numbers of the form bbbbb0,bbbbbb..., and just kinda move the b's before 0 one step to the right
02:58:19 <AnMaster> oklofok, how does this interact with cantor's diagonal argument?
02:58:31 <oklofok> AnMaster: mr. true and mr. false would form the simplest nontrivial boolean algebra, but for any n there is a boolean algebra with 2^n dudes
02:58:43 <oklofok> and these are *the only finite boolean algebras*Ä
02:58:58 <oklofok> this is what i meant by "for blah blah there's a set such that blah blah isomorphism"
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02:59:02 <AnMaster> oklofok, hm, I only worked with the true/false style boolean algebra
02:59:12 <AnMaster> I did know there were other types
02:59:19 <AnMaster> just never came in contact with those
02:59:33 <oklofok> you said you knew sets also form a BA
02:59:56 <AnMaster> oklofok, actually what I said was that I knew that the same rules worked.
03:00:08 <AnMaster> I didn't say I knew *why* this was
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03:00:29 <oklofok> to be more precise, if we have any set S whatsoever, and take the powerset 2^S, then if you define and as intersection and or as union, then a boolean algebra will be formed
03:01:19 <oklofok> to prove the rules work is very simple, actually, you just have to prove a few things about unions and intersections
03:02:03 <oklofok> AnMaster: oklofok, how does this interact with cantor's diagonal argument? <<< cantor's thing says there is no surjection N -> R, i proved there's a surjection "subset of R" -> R
03:02:27 <AnMaster> oklofok, oh right. But N is a subset of R
03:02:47 <oklofok> yes, it's not true that for all subsets Z of R, there is a surjection from Z to R
03:02:50 <AnMaster> not all subsets might have such a surjection
03:03:08 <oklofok> consider {}, it's a proper subset of R, but you can't map one of it's 0 elements to each element of R :P
03:03:15 <AnMaster> oklofok, would it be possible to construct such a set that for all subsets there is a surjection?
03:03:31 <oklofok> N is a big subset, and infinite one in fact; cantor's argument says it's still not big enough.
03:03:35 <AnMaster> oh wait yeah {}: All subsets of {} form a surjection against {}
03:03:49 <AnMaster> which makes the whole thing pointless
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03:04:10 <oklofok> what was that "hard to prove those" thing about
03:04:19 <AnMaster> oklofok, about "<oklofok> to prove the rules work is very simple, actually, you just have to prove a few things about unions and intersections"
03:04:36 <oklofok> there's a slight difference
03:04:44 <AnMaster> oklofok, no, but you are in general way above my level in maths
03:05:38 <AnMaster> oklofok, what you consider trivial, I likely will consider "not too hard", what you consider "not too hard" I will likely go "huh?" at :P
03:06:05 <AnMaster> (apart from the really trivial trivial bits)
03:06:23 <oklofok> well let's see, a(b + c) = ab + ac, with sets that's a \cap (b \cup c) = (a \cap b) \cup (a \cap c), well... do you even need a proof for that?
03:06:48 <oklofok> we're taking all elems that belong to either b or c
03:06:55 <AnMaster> oh right latex. hm \cap is ^ and \cup = V right?
03:06:59 <oklofok> we then remove all elems that belong to a
03:07:11 <oklofok> clearly it doesn't matter whether we remove all elems of a before or after the union
03:07:19 <oklofok> just draw like a venn diagram
03:07:39 <AnMaster> wasdo you even need a proof for that? <-- a venn diagram works just fine iirc.
03:08:11 <AnMaster> oklofok, argh you said that too a few lines below :P
03:08:20 <AnMaster> well yeah I don't need a proof for that one
03:08:38 <AnMaster> and for boolean algebra you can prove it with a truth table
03:10:12 <oklofok> but, if you want proof: a \cap (b \cup c) = {x | (x \in a) \and ((x \in b) \or (x \in c))} = {x | ((x \in a) \and (x \in b)) \or ((x \in a) \and (x \in c))} = (a \cap b) \cup (a \cap c), basically just open the definitions, and you're done
03:10:57 <oklofok> yes, for the boolean algebra with 2 elements you could write down a truth table
03:11:27 <oklofok> i don't see a mistake, but if there's an and, should be \and prolly
03:11:42 <oklofok> anyway, in fact, for any finite boolean algebra, you can write a "truth table"
03:11:50 <AnMaster> oklofok, just lyx didn't like it. Not sure if it is there actually
03:12:02 <oklofok> i mean obviously you can just check the rules work if you have a finite amount of elements
03:12:22 <AnMaster> the whole bit \and((x\in b)\or(x\in c))}={x|((x\in a)\and(x\in b))\or((x\in a)\and(x\in c))}=(a\cap b)\cup(a\cap c) doesn't render. Just silently cut off
03:13:01 <oklofok> anyway the usual boolean algebra 0, 1 is just the powerset of a set with one element, {a}, you just have one dude
03:13:53 <oklofok> there is a unique boolean algebra on the power set {{}, {a}}, then the "1" of that algebra is {a}, and {} is 0
03:14:08 <AnMaster> oklofok, hm from this follows that there is a boolean algebra with just {} ?
03:14:32 <oklofok> well you could say it's the trivial boolean algebra
03:14:48 <oklofok> no in fact i think there's the rule 0 != 1
03:15:06 <AnMaster> oklofok, oh there has to be at least one element?
03:16:00 <oklofok> "the boolean algebra with just {}" is the algebra you get if you take the powerset of {}, that is, {{}}, it has just one element, which is both 1 and 0
03:16:10 <oklofok> the empty boolean algebra i suppose would be even more trivial
03:16:17 <oklofok> having neither, set of dudes = {}
03:16:30 <oklofok> i'm pretty sure at least that is illegal
03:16:44 <oklofok> but i don't have a set of axioms here, and this is really not that important :P
03:19:32 <oklofok> well okay there's a rule like "there has to be an element 1 with properties X"
03:19:48 <oklofok> (the properties say it's the biggest object)
03:20:17 <AnMaster> <oklofok> "the boolean algebra with just {}" is the algebra you get if you take the powerset of {}, that is, {{}}, it has just one element, which is both 1 and 0 <-- that one is still valid?
03:20:24 <oklofok> then that's false. because there's no element, there isn't an element 1, even if the properties X would be trivially true because there are no objects
03:21:28 <oklofok> yeah, but i find thinking about the degenerate cases usually makes math feel more concrete, sorta like programming vs. using programs
03:21:54 <AnMaster> oklofok, using programs being more concrete?
03:22:18 <AnMaster> oklofok, btw that thing above rendered as something that actually shows up as you expected it would be: $a\cap\left(b\cup c\right)=\left\{ x|\left(x\in a\right)AND\left(\left(x\in b\right)OR\left(x\in c\right)\right)\right\} =\left\{ x|\left(\left(x\in a\right)AND\left(x\in b\right)\right)OR\left(\left(x\in a\right)AND\left(x\in c\right)\right)\right\} =\left(a\cap b\right)\cup\left(a\cap c\right)$
03:22:25 <AnMaster> there seems to be no \and or \or
03:22:44 <AnMaster> oklofok, most importantly you forgot to escape the {}
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03:23:35 <oklofok> sort of like how programming makes you understand why programs don't always do what you want, maybe :)
03:24:51 <oklofok> (maybe) math is similar, the details and degenerates aren't actually that useful, but so aren't unfinished programs
03:25:02 <oklofok> well dunno, feeling poetic maybe
03:25:13 <AnMaster> oklofok, yeah very deep and poetic
03:26:41 <oklofok> well anyway has been fun discussing these important elementary school matters with you :P
03:26:59 <AnMaster> oklofok, hm btw is there a surjection between R and C?
03:27:51 <oklofok> bababab.bababa.... to (bbbb.bbbb..., aaaa.aaaa...)
03:28:20 <oklofok> i think that works, there are two representations for each real so there might be complications
03:28:39 <AnMaster> oklofok, and there is the polar form
03:30:00 <oklofok> we need to prove if we have some (bbbb.bbb..., aaaa.aaaa...), then there's a real that maps to it, but the problem is when we're finding what to map bababa.babab.... to, we might actually use another representation for that real, say bababa.ccccc..., and actually map it to (bbb.ccc...., aaa.cccc)
03:30:08 <oklofok> can you follow this notation?
03:30:13 <AnMaster> oh you mean that 1+2i and 12+0i?
03:30:30 <oklofok> again the tuples are complex numbers (real, imag)
03:30:37 <oklofok> what does that question mean?
03:30:48 <AnMaster> oklofok, forget it, was thinking backwards
03:30:56 <oklofok> say in binary, 0.1111... = 1.0000...
03:31:36 <oklofok> what "we map bababab.bababa.... to (bbbb.bbbb..., aaaa.aaaa...)" actually says is, given some real, we take a representation of it (one of the two), and map it to some complex number
03:31:50 <oklofok> if the complex number is different depending on the representation of the real we chose
03:31:55 <oklofok> then this is not even well-defined
03:32:16 <oklofok> because using the two different representations, we could find two different complex numbers to which the function maps the real
03:32:23 <oklofok> and functions don't do that.
03:32:29 <AnMaster> oklofok, thus providing that C is larger than R?
03:33:16 <oklofok> no, this doesn't prove that. kinda like saying "the ill-defined function f(x) = 0 and 1 isn't a surjection between R and C, therefore C is bigger than R" doesn't prove shit
03:34:10 <oklofok> there definitely *is* a surjection from R to C, and in fact i could just fix the error
03:34:24 <oklofok> we take some base say base 1010010
03:35:03 <oklofok> now, numbers that have 293 as their ith digit, map to complex numbers with 0 as their ith digit, and numbers that have 8544 as their ith digit, map to complex numbers with 1 as their ith digit
03:35:10 <oklofok> everything else can be chosen arbitrarily
03:35:32 <oklofok> now, for each complex number, we can construct a real number that has 293's and 8544's in the proper places
03:36:11 <oklofok> because both 293 and 8544 are in the middle of the interval [0, 1010010), there won't be any complications
03:36:37 <oklofok> numbers that only contain stuff from the "middle of the base", have unique representations, afaik
03:36:51 <oklofok> and those were completely arbitrary, those numbers
03:37:18 <oklofok> now it's a surjection, but not a bijection, as you can probably see if you followed that
03:37:58 <oklofok> we just needed the function's values to be nice for numbers whose base 1010010 representation only contains 293's and 8544's
03:38:05 <AnMaster> oklofok, what about constructing a bijection then?
03:39:45 <oklofok> there's a relevant theorem i can't find
03:40:22 <oklofok> well anyway something like if there's a surjection both ways then there's a bijection
03:40:29 <oklofok> clearly there's a surjection from C to R
03:40:56 <AnMaster> just set the imaginary part to 0
03:41:47 <oklofok> yes. well, technically R is a completely separate field, it doesn't even have imaginary parts. that's just how R is embedded into C.
03:42:00 <oklofok> but anyway the function that takes the real part
03:42:20 <AnMaster> oklofok, not the one that returns the real part?
03:42:35 <oklofok> i mean takes from the number, and returns :P
03:42:41 <oklofok> anyway second attempt coming soon.
03:42:52 <AnMaster> oklofok, well cya. I shouldn't hold you up longer
03:43:01 <AnMaster> this has been very interesting :)
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04:30:22 <AnMaster> mathematica sure is buggy... like altgr inserting space. Found a fix on google groups for it.
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05:55:53 <AnMaster> I just invented a feather-like language I think
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08:12:48 <oerjan> 19:40:22 <oklofok> well anyway something like if there's a surjection both ways then there's a bijection
08:12:51 <oerjan> 19:40:29 <oklofok> clearly there's a surjection from C to R
08:13:06 <oerjan> if there is an injection there is obviously a surjection the other way
08:13:53 <oerjan> the reverse is also true but probably requires the axiom of choice
08:14:11 <quantumEd> oh no! that's a shame because axiom of choice is true
08:14:37 <oerjan> it's independent. you can choose whether you include it.
08:15:33 <oerjan> perhaps. however it requires proof, which gödel and cohen provided for the axiom of choice at least (and the continuum hypothesis)
08:15:37 <quantumEd> why do people so often point out when they use choice.. nobody says, ..but that requires axiom of powerset
08:16:10 <oerjan> because choice is the only one which doesn't give you a unique thing you construct
08:21:41 <quantumEd> the whole logic set theory is based on has that property
08:22:34 <oerjan> hm well yeah choosing an element from a general set doesn't really give a unique thing either
08:22:56 <oerjan> <oklofok> yes, but subtraction simply does not exist in boolean algebra
08:23:32 <oerjan> you can use xor instead of union/or though
08:23:45 <oerjan> then it's just a Z_2 module
08:23:56 <oerjan> s/module/vector space/
08:24:30 <oerjan> and is not a vector space operation
08:25:06 <oerjan> i really mean, it's then a ring (boolean ring)
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08:25:54 <oerjan> of course addition = subtraction then
08:45:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed. hours ago. remind me
08:46:50 <AnMaster> and yeah, I agree fully with the annotation
08:48:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh and D&D was rather funny today
08:49:42 <oerjan> i found it a bit grating, actually, pete being _too_ exaggerated
08:50:09 <oerjan> but well, i guess that's what you need to get jim to actually start noticing...
08:50:49 <AnMaster> opinions on mathematica after having spent some time playing around with it: incredibly buggy, three serious usability isssues, was possible to work around two of them. It also crashes a lot.
08:51:09 <AnMaster> Syntax is somewhat strange and I still haven't found out why function parameters need to end with _
08:51:15 <oerjan> would not buy again. </ducks>
08:51:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, well yeah, having to rotate a 3D plot to be able to see it is rather annoying
08:51:49 <AnMaster> it is the one serious issue that I have not found any working workaround for
08:52:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, I decided to ignore that joke. xkcd reference right?
08:52:56 <oerjan> hm xkcd used it (that bobcat thing), but i thought it was a meme...
08:53:22 <AnMaster> for most simple purposes I have to say maxima with the wxmaxima frontend is as good and sometimes better. Definitely less buggy for a start.
08:53:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh right. I'm no expert on memes
08:53:54 <oerjan> anyway the joke was really about the fact you didn't actually buy it, as far as i have discerned
08:53:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, bobcat? wasn't it the send cat through ebay?
08:54:40 <AnMaster> oh btw another thing I noticed is that Wolfram really likes boasting.
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08:55:27 <AnMaster> http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/FunctionalProgramming.html says "Long viewed as an important theoretical idea, functional programming finally became truly convenient and practical with the introduction of Mathematica's symbolic language."
08:55:44 <AnMaster> of course, the wording is rather vague
08:55:51 <oerjan> you mean you haven't noticed that about wolfram before? it's like he's famous for it
08:56:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, well yes I noticed it, but I hadn't realised the scope of it
08:56:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh and I think he claimed mathematica was fast somewhere in the docs. and "highly optimising" or something
08:57:39 <AnMaster> on the other hand, taking a minute or so to compute NextPrime[800!] doesn't seem too bad. Probably not a representative example considering what I heard from ais and such
08:58:27 <oerjan> ehird (?) claimed mathematica _was_ fast as long as you only glued together things it knows well
08:58:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, that seems quite plausible
08:58:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, but I assume you do have a copy?
09:01:03 <oerjan> heck i'm not sure i've ever tried it, the institute went with maple...
09:01:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh btw the serious issues with workarounds: 1) Pressing AltGr inserts a space, work around by editing internal file, fix found in google groups archive. 2) Maxima was hogging CPU and waking up the laptop cpu around 14000 times per second (!), work around by replacing some library files with updated versions from wolfram: reduced to around 7000 times per second, chmod the java link stuff to be
09:01:52 <AnMaster> non-accessible got rid of the issue completely but as a side effect some features of the internal help system no longer works
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09:03:34 <AnMaster> maxima is a lot less buggy. for a start
09:04:30 <oerjan> well it's open source version of old macsyma, isn't it
09:04:57 <oerjan> i think the vax/vms system they had when i joined university had macsyma
09:06:29 <oerjan> http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/04/monumental_egos.html
09:06:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah but development hasn't been standing still
09:06:52 <oerjan> i was really pointing out the open source part
09:07:01 <oerjan> which _should_ mean less bugs
09:08:59 <AnMaster> <oerjan> http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/04/monumental_egos.html <-- heh
09:10:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, that site uses almost unreadably small text however
09:13:03 <fizzie> These Android fonts (available as a package directly) have a lot nicer monospace font; I get a pretty readable 99x19 term on the 3.5" screen.
09:13:05 <SimonRC> one can set a minimum text size in many rowsers
09:14:08 <AnMaster> ah found it, mac fonts (legally) on a non-mac
09:14:24 <fizzie> At least that's what "resize" said the size is, haven't counted the chars.
09:15:12 <fizzie> Number of rows matches, probably columns too.
09:16:04 <fizzie> 99x23 in the no-title-bar "fullscreen" mode.
09:18:31 <fizzie> Yes, it counts correctly; used cat to avoid the editor war.
09:22:05 <oerjan> but now you're at war with PETA instead!
09:22:31 <HackEgo> * Peta (PeTa, Peta) is a fictional character in the manga and anime series MR. He is a member of the Chess Pieces, the series main antagonists ... \ [22]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peta_(MR) \ * In physics and mathematics, peta- (symbol: P) is a prefix in the SI (system of units) denoting 1015, or 1,000,000,000,000,000. For
09:22:43 <HackEgo> PETA's animal rights campaigns include ending fur and leather use meat and dairy consumption fishing hunting trapping factory farming circuses bull fighting ... \ www.peta.org/ - [13]Cached - [14]Similar
09:23:01 <SimonRC> fizzie: but cat doesn't have a column count function!
09:24:09 <oerjan> ^ul ((0123456789)S:^):^
09:24:10 <fungot> 012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123 ...too much output!
09:24:34 <fizzie> SimonRC: Wrote 30 chars, copy-pasted twice, then counted the remaining empty spots.
09:27:50 <fizzie> Time for some bus-catching.
09:31:47 <oklofok> oerjan: you didn't answer, how did you do in mathemalympics
09:32:51 <oerjan> i did answer. fairly mediocre
09:33:03 <oerjan> as in below the 50% medal cutoff
09:33:28 <oerjan> international math olympiad
09:34:55 <oerjan> in the national competition i got 3rd and 2nd place
09:35:02 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 1 of 1 for mathemalympics. (0.08 seconds)
09:35:12 <AnMaster> isn't there a special term for that
09:35:40 <oerjan> well duh oklofok made it up afaik
09:35:45 <Asztal> AnMaster: there's "googlewhack", but that's for 2 words together
09:35:51 <oklofok> i wish i'd given a shit in the math competitions :|
09:36:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, so what was the real name for it?
09:36:27 <oerjan> international math(ematics) olympiad
09:36:37 <oklofok> i've probably told you my fun math competition stories?
09:40:41 <oerjan> that would be one where we are all put in a boat at sea, and have to solve math problems to escape
09:41:38 <oerjan> or maybe the other way around, not to get thrown out
09:41:53 <oerjan> i hear that's the popular way with these reality shows
09:45:05 * SimonRC rather liked the maths olympiad when he did it.
09:45:20 <SimonRC> I got to go to the summer school.
09:46:23 <oklofok> bsmntbombdood: well wasn't i advertising an empty room just the other day... :D
09:48:40 <oklofok> no idea really. significantly less strict than yours, i'd wager.
09:50:19 <bsmntbombdood> what about work, would i be able to manage without speaking whatever it is the natives speak?
09:50:51 <oklofok> pretty much everyone speaks english here
09:51:49 <oklofok> but tbh i'm not sure you could live here, i mean i wouldn't mind, but my gf might (i suppose i could ask her though)
09:52:04 <bsmntbombdood> but you wouldn't speak english unless there was some reason to right?
09:52:24 <oklofok> you mean do i speak english with finns? no, usually not
10:01:28 <AnMaster> is there a way to tell google that "this word must appear in this page", because most hits I get is when selecting cached shows that "These terms only appear in links pointing to this page:"
10:01:43 <AnMaster> and all results are fairly irrelevant
10:01:54 <oerjan> i've been annoyed by that too
10:02:12 <quantumEd> don't think so, it doesn't work by words on the one page
10:02:27 <oerjan> hm did prepending + help i don't quite recall if that worked
10:02:31 <quantumEd> although there's no reason that couldn't be done as post processing so forget that
10:02:37 <oklofok> yeah sometimes i wish google was a search engine
10:02:55 <oklofok> and didn't just try to read my mind
10:03:22 <quantumEd> oklofok who said anything about mind reading
10:03:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, prepending + seems to reduce the issue but not solve it completely
10:04:33 <quantumEd> oklofok literal interpretation of that question misses the intended meaning
10:04:35 <oerjan> i think there is a google help page somewhere, i think i've seen links to it
10:05:07 <quantumEd> oklofok I guess I was assuming you knew a bit about how google ranked pages
10:05:13 <oerjan> why google doesn't put it on their front page is beyond me
10:07:59 <oerjan> broken unicode in the norwegian version, not encouraging
10:08:53 <oklofok> quantumEd: all i need to know is they don't look for pages containing exactly what i write in the box.
10:09:23 <oklofok> although they do something close to that
10:10:06 <quantumEd> oklofok dunno, what you were saying seemed kinda smug and sarcastic to me
10:10:45 <oklofok> google is big, obviously i'm allowed to bash them
10:11:22 * oerjan tries the english version in the hope it is more up to date
10:13:07 * AnMaster suspects google turned evil quite some time back. Around the same time as sponsored links were introduced
10:13:24 <AnMaster> that's google in general, sure there are still parts that aren't evil
10:16:22 <oklofok> quantumEd: a good example of what i mean by mind reading is they correct my typos, 99% of the time they just give me something i didn't want, because what i wanted was less popular than something that sounds similar.
10:17:02 <oklofok> or s/99%/50%/, i haven't made statistics, just become annoyed ;)
10:17:29 <oerjan> oklofok: that's what adding + is supposed to disable, anyway
10:18:12 <oklofok> you and your superior arguments.
10:18:44 <oklofok> as if i have the time to press + everytime i search for something :d
10:19:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, + doesn't disable it in my experience always
10:21:14 <oerjan> it's supposed to disable synonyms, it says
10:21:22 <oerjan> says nothing about links
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10:26:22 <oerjan> oh well i cannot find any way to turn off links-only hits either
10:28:24 <oerjan> of course nazi zombies
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10:37:44 <uorygl> oklofok: why do you search for so many things containing typos?
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10:39:19 <oerjan> they are not typos, they are just oppressed words
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10:45:36 <oklofok> uorygl: ,aybe i just never typo accidentally, so all the corrections are always wong in my case?
10:51:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh ffs. I think wolfram just tried to claim mathematica somehow is the best programming language at handling name spaces
10:51:20 <quantumEd> I've heard people claim mathematica is teh best language
10:51:45 <oerjan> uorygl: i seem to detect some doubt about oklofok's perfection, there. repent, sinner!
10:51:49 <AnMaster> quantumEd, from looking at the docs it seems to provide a fairly bulky way to handle name spaces
10:52:44 <AnMaster> meaning it seems more complex and messy than it needs to be. For no gain. And that even C++
10:52:53 <AnMaster> c++'s* namespaces seems better
10:53:07 <AnMaster> and let it be known that I'm no C++ lover at all
10:53:24 <AnMaster> in fact I positively detest C++
10:53:41 <oerjan> well at least you aren't negative about it
10:54:45 * uorygl sics Eliezer Yudkowsky on oerjan.
10:56:08 * oerjan places eliezer yudkowsky in a black box, tells everyone it is an evil AI and not to let it out under any circumstances
10:56:50 * uorygl talks to the black box for two hours.
10:56:58 <AnMaster> * uorygl sics Eliezer Yudkowsky on oerjan. <-- everything before "on" there seems like some other language than English
10:56:59 <uorygl> I'm convinced that I should open this box.
10:57:27 <uorygl> AnMaster: "uorygl" is a Lojban spelling of an English word. "sic" is an English word.
10:57:39 <AnMaster> uorygl, you mean as in [sic] ?
10:57:52 <uorygl> No, it's a verb, also spelled "sick".
10:57:53 <oklofok> AnMaster: sic means to tell to attack
10:57:53 <oerjan> and here i was trying to check if it was rot-N
10:58:11 <oklofok> yarr i didn't realize it was ihope either
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10:58:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, I did that in a few seconds and found it unlikely
10:58:41 <oklofok> whois would've told that tho, it seems
10:58:46 <oerjan> oh that i realized long ago
10:59:22 <AnMaster> oklofok, how so? There is no ihope in it
10:59:24 <uorygl> "Eliezer" is a Biblical name meaning "God is help". As for "Yudkowsky", all I can tell is that it's an English proper noun meaning "Eliezer Yudkowsky".
10:59:35 <ehird> 18:04:53 <oklofok> ehird: I wonder how draw() will do for more complex expressions. <<< actually it's pretty simple to do it, basically you just do dynamic programming on expressions, and for each, store the size of the bounding box for the pic, combining them is just a matter of trivial.
10:59:35 <ehird> I meant how reasonable output will it give.
10:59:35 <oklofok> AnMaster: everyone knows warrie is ihope
10:59:43 <ehird> We're talking about Yudkowsky's name?
11:00:05 <uorygl> ehird: < AnMaster> * uorygl sics Eliezer Yudkowsky on oerjan. <-- everything before "on" there seems like some other language than English
11:00:26 <ehird> oklofok: but you can't get smaller and smaller text w/ ascii
11:00:40 <oerjan> uorygl: -owsky is a pretty common slavic name suffix afaik
11:01:09 <ehird> 18:14:19 <AnMaster> oklofok, your client uses : for what someone said?
11:01:09 <ehird> 18:14:22 <AnMaster> it's confusing
11:01:10 <ehird> 18:15:02 <AnMaster> oklofok: because it is often used to address someone (like this, though I set my client to use , normally for tab completion)
11:01:10 <ehird> Ho ho, the primitive oklofok knows not the customs of IRC!
11:01:13 <oklofok> ehird: yes, that's why you need to know the sizes of bounding boxes of subexpressions
11:01:23 <ehird> oklofok: that's not actually the context I meant
11:01:33 <ehird> i meant like in power towerzzz
11:01:55 <AnMaster> ehird I'm forced to give you an award...
11:02:11 <ehird> 18:20:39 <oklofok> ehird: Uh, why not? <<< because there is a countable amount of pairs like that, consider a base 257 number, each function can be considered a distinct number in that base => at most |N| functions
11:02:25 <oklofok> it was about functions not being representable
11:02:43 <ehird> oh the free variable
11:02:45 <oklofok> arglist + expression is not enough to give you all functions
11:03:08 <ehird> expression can be arbitrarily big tho...
11:03:50 <ehird> are we including impossible functions here
11:03:51 <uorygl> Recursion doesn't change the fact that expressions are finite.
11:03:58 <uorygl> What's an "impossible" function?
11:04:04 <uorygl> An uncomputable one? Definitely.
11:06:35 <ehird> a meaningless one? :P
11:08:53 <quantumEd> there's more functions than you can write down
11:09:04 <oklofok> actually a function can be definable without being computable
11:09:40 <oklofok> ehird: maybe ofc, but that was an answer to your question
11:10:29 <oklofok> i see so much more than that
11:11:41 <ehird> i see the nested hilbert-hotel of concepts
11:12:04 <quantumEd> how many computable functions are there?
11:12:06 <ehird> (every room contains a hilbert hotel just as big as the main one, containing all the ideas and subhotels of related ideas)
11:12:09 <ehird> quantumEd: infinite
11:12:18 <quantumEd> (say in infinitary lambda calculus)
11:12:40 <ehird> you could argue that's two functions
11:12:59 <uorygl> Yeah, in most definitions of a "computable function", there are aleph_0 of them.
11:13:23 <ehird> computable function restricted to the physical universe would be interesting
11:13:30 <ehird> but we don't know how dense we can pack information for a computer
11:13:46 <ehird> and we don't know how fast we can compute (to avoid the death of the universe)
11:13:55 <ehird> and we don't know when the universe will die either :P
11:13:59 <AnMaster> ehird, what about one that "did something useful" (of course you need to define that first)
11:14:30 <AnMaster> ehird, did, since we spent so much time thinking about it that the universe already died.
11:14:31 <quantumEd> uorygl that's just some definition though, it's not necessarily the truth
11:15:02 <ehird> There is no "truth".
11:15:10 <oklofok> was just about to say that
11:15:26 <ehird> Your incorrect philosophy of mathematics may lead you to believe that there is a real "truth" behind computable functions — which ONLY means their definition — but there is not.
11:15:45 <ehird> Computable functions mean what consensus defines them as; they are abstract concepts with no underlying truths.
11:16:52 <oerjan> oklofok: wrong channel
11:17:23 <oklofok> i thought this was the one with the nazi zombies
11:17:41 <oerjan> no. this channel still has some brains left.
11:17:52 <OxE6> brains? where?
11:18:05 <oklofok> irc rooms are kind of a sucky place to hunt.
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11:18:33 <uorygl> quantumEd: in math, definitions are the truth.
11:18:37 <oklofok> bsmntbombdood seems to be the only one even trying to get into physical contact with his prey
11:18:51 <quantumEd> uorygl, not so! Truth in undefiniable
11:19:08 <uorygl> How do we know that pi is the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter? It's defined that way.
11:19:26 <oklofok> bsmntbombdood: you're a zombie, and you want to eat my brain
11:19:47 <uorygl> A statement is true in a theory if it holds for every model of that theory.
11:20:02 <ehird> quantumEd: that's just some definitions tarski made up
11:20:04 <ehird> quantumEd: not the truth!
11:20:30 <oerjan> s/true/provable/, iirc
11:20:42 <quantumEd> true and provable are not synonymous
11:20:48 <ehird> imo thinking about true is usually pointless esp. since godel means, well, it's kinda inaccessible
11:20:56 <ehird> i think provable is a formal concept and true isn't, but that's just a hunch
11:21:00 <oerjan> no but i think the tarski theorem is about provability?
11:21:27 <uorygl> Well, I think something is a "logical consequence" or whatever if it holds for every model of the theory.
11:21:33 <oerjan> otoh isn't that godel's completeness theorem
11:21:43 <quantumEd> I'm not talking about godels theorem
11:22:22 <oerjan> they may be close nevertheless
11:22:44 <uorygl> Yeah, remind me. Is there a Turing machine that halts in some models of ZFC but not others?
11:23:17 <uorygl> ...Yeah, I think there is. Just add "the Turing machine halts" as an axiom.
11:23:44 <quantumEd> uorygl, if it's undecidible whether or not a turing machine halts: It does not halt
11:24:06 <quantumEd> I don't think the axiom "the Turing machine halts" is okay to suffix
11:24:09 <uorygl> Still, for some Turing machines that do not halt, ZFC + "that Turing machine halts" is consistent.
11:24:39 <uorygl> Because a theory is consistent if and only if you can't prove a falsehood from it.
11:24:48 <quantumEd> anyway all this talk of turing machines just brings us back to cold hearted determinism, there's so much more
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11:26:01 <SimonRC> oh dear not all this again
11:26:20 <ehird> quantumEd: oh great, let me guess
11:26:26 <ehird> free will exists because of quantum effects
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11:28:49 <ehird> haha the channel collectively grunts in disgust
11:29:13 <oklofok> yes, puzzlet's hop was just that annoying.
11:30:10 <ehird> 20:30:22 <AnMaster> mathematica sure is buggy... like altgr inserting space. Found a fix on google groups for it.
11:30:10 <ehird> to insert special characters, I recommend <esc>name<esc>
11:31:04 <OxE6> chocolate pie?
11:31:24 <oerjan> it's chocolate _somewhere_, it's infinite after all
11:31:30 <ehird> re: start of today's logs, people who don't use the axiom of choice upset me :P
11:31:36 <ehird> oerjan: no, it could be uniform
11:31:44 <ehird> or a repeated tile
11:31:47 <AnMaster> <ehird> to insert special characters, I recommend <esc>name<esc>
11:31:51 <oerjan> but where is the fun in that
11:31:54 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot about Swedish keyboard
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11:32:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I need altgr for [ and {
11:32:08 <ehird> AnMaster: dude, remap that shit
11:32:08 <oklofok> all sets of axioms should be used an equal amount
11:32:21 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway the fix works, *shrug*
11:32:23 <SimonRC> even the inconsistent ones?
11:32:23 <ehird> apply the axiom of choice to an infinite set of axioms
11:32:59 <ehird> 00:50:49 <AnMaster> opinions on mathematica after having spent some time playing around with it: incredibly buggy, three serious usability isssues, was possible to work around two of them. It also crashes a lot.
11:33:00 <ehird> 00:51:09 <AnMaster> Syntax is somewhat strange and I still haven't found out why function parameters need to end with _
11:33:10 <oklofok> SimonRC: well if they are hard to prove inconsistent, they can be interesting for a while
11:33:21 <ehird> pattern matches on the symbol foo
11:33:21 <ehird> it's a symbolic language
11:33:21 <ehird> also, what are the usability issues?
11:33:45 <AnMaster> ehird, they were mentioned below
11:33:55 <ehird> 00:51:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, well yeah, having to rotate a 3D plot to be able to see it is rather annoying
11:33:55 <ehird> 00:51:49 <AnMaster> it is the one serious issue that I have not found any working workaround for
11:33:55 <ehird> works in os x without rotating
11:33:55 <ehird> 00:51:15 <oerjan> would not buy again. </ducks>
11:33:55 <ehird> 00:52:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, I decided to ignore that joke. xkcd reference right?
11:33:55 <ehird> no, it predates the internet i believe
11:34:03 <AnMaster> <ehird> works in os x without rotating
11:34:09 <ehird> linux of course is a fringe platform for mathematica
11:34:20 <ehird> most people are on windows or os x, or use maxima or axiom or w/e
11:34:38 <AnMaster> ehird, some intel chipset revisions only, only linux
11:34:48 <oklofok> maxima is horrible after getting used to mathematica's web interface
11:35:00 <AnMaster> oklofok, web interface? You mean W|A?
11:35:13 <ehird> 00:54:40 <AnMaster> oh btw another thing I noticed is that Wolfram really likes boasting.
11:35:13 <ehird> he's probably a malignant narcissist
11:35:20 <ehird> he definitely has a gigantic ego
11:35:25 <oklofok> mathematica has tons of web interfaces
11:35:52 <AnMaster> oklofok, better than the command line I have to say
11:36:02 <AnMaster> oklofok, graphical frontend to maxima
11:36:33 <AnMaster> oklofok, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WxMaxima_0.7.1_screenshot.png ?
11:36:44 <ehird> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malignant_narcissism)
11:36:45 <AnMaster> later versions are more like mathematica note book in style
11:37:08 <AnMaster> oklofok, as in, you edit directly in the buffer rather than having an input line at the bottom
11:37:13 <oklofok> mine does ascii rendering for instance
11:37:20 <ehird> AnMaster: did you miss the talk about me musing about writing y own maxima/mathematica-alike?
11:37:28 <AnMaster> oklofok, wow your has to be really old
11:37:30 <ehird> oklofok: you're using the command-line version, probably
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11:38:29 <ehird> AnMaster: features in a nutshell: *good* command-line interface with good ASCII art drawing of expressions, a simple syntax that matches mathematical notation quite closely, and some assorted other stuff
11:39:05 <ehird> oh, and the ascii art drawing is optional, by default it'll display linear expressions, which is nice
11:39:31 <AnMaster> ehird, mathematical notation is ambiguous without context. As in what does a d mean? dx/dy is probably different from ab+dc
11:39:43 <ehird> 00:58:27 <oerjan> ehird (?) claimed mathematica _was_ fast as long as you only glued together things it knows well
11:39:43 <ehird> ais523 claimed it and i parroted based on my experience
11:40:08 <ehird> AnMaster: dx/dy is dividing the variables dx and dy. ab+dc is adding ab and dc. for the former use the derivative function
11:40:15 <ehird> for the latter you mean a b + d c
11:40:19 <ehird> or (a b)+(d c), not sure
11:40:23 <ehird> i said close, but also simple
11:40:25 <AnMaster> ehird, dx/dy is probably a differentiation
11:40:27 <ehird> and understandable
11:40:35 <ehird> AnMaster: no it isn't, not in my syntax
11:40:36 <AnMaster> or what you call it in English
11:40:52 <AnMaster> ehird, well I said "mathematical notation"
11:41:01 <ehird> Then why did you state that to me?
11:41:06 <AnMaster> ehird, "that matches mathematical notation quite closely"
11:41:50 <AnMaster> ehird, about ascii art drawing, do you mean unicode or plain ASCII?
11:42:28 <ehird> plain ascii, unicode doesn't really help all that much for most of it
11:42:36 <ehird> the layout engine will prolly have different backends
11:42:43 <ehird> like ascii, unicode, html etc
11:43:32 <ehird> (although the TeX will probably be quite low level as the layout engine will mostly result in things like "row, 2, row, line, row, 3" for 2/3)
11:44:18 * AnMaster wonders how to plot a function in the complex plane with mathemematica. 3D plot. x for real part, y for imaginary part (for the input value), And z for absolute value and colour for argument (for the output value)
11:44:36 <AnMaster> I haven't been able to figure out the colour stuff
11:44:49 <ehird> When in doubt, type Plot3D, hit F1, and navigate the docs. There is a special function fofr complex numbers, I believe.
11:45:00 <ehird> Oh, and the documentation search is quite good.
11:45:03 <ehird> "plot complex" might help.
11:45:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Here's something that'll make you go WTF: The documentation is a set of Mathematica notebooks.
11:46:02 <ehird> The documentation for Plot3D is the same thing as your REPL.
11:46:18 <ehird> (You can even shift-enter the examples from inside the docs.)
11:46:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I did on reference.wolfram.com, since the built in docs requires java (except for basic ?Function stuff). And the java stuff is what causes the exessive wakeups and CPU hogging. Using built in docs slows down the computer so much that the mouse pointer take several seconds to react
11:47:13 <ehird> The built in docs areer far superior.
11:47:14 <ehird> I suggest fixing the Java issue, it really is a lot more pleasant with the built-in doccs.
11:47:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, and here's some fun functions — {Example,Country,Astronomical}Data
11:48:08 <uorygl> I hope Mathematica doesn't need installation instructions.
11:48:48 <AnMaster> ehird, the java issue is known, and it is a mathematica bug, not a bug in java. Working fix not yet released.
11:48:53 <ehird> uorygl: You run a script and enter two paths.
11:49:02 <ehird> AnMaster: So work around it.
11:49:09 <ehird> It's not heh; those functions really are fun.
11:49:17 <AnMaster> ehird, official workaround is chmod a-rx JLink
11:49:58 <ehird> So do an unofficial workaround...?
11:50:14 <AnMaster> ehird, none found so far. at least as far as I have been able to find
11:50:25 <ehird> tried different jvms?
11:50:43 <ehird> Well, alright then.
11:50:57 <ehird> New suggestion! Use my thing instead.
11:51:09 <AnMaster> ehird, there is some suggestion to downgrade kernel(!) to 2.6.27 or earlier, but that would break all sort of stuff. Like being able to boot my laptop iirc.
11:52:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Surely I should go design it first, being that it is a huge undertaking, involving not only the creation of a completely new, unconventional programming language that should be quite fast and yet has to be based around tree rewriting, the programming of complex and subtle algorithms as far down as basic algebra that nonetheless have to be optimised the shit out of, the programming of many, many mathematical and utility functions — that must run
11:52:58 <ehird> efficiently, writing the drawing layout engine, ...
11:53:08 <ehird> ... but tons of other things too.
11:55:02 <ehird> That's what symbolic computation is.
11:55:47 <ehird> It's basically the only way to easily handle expressions involving numbers like pi and insanely big 'uns and still be able to manipulate and compare them efficiently and only evaluate them to arbitrary precision at the last step.
11:57:14 <AnMaster> wow I think this plot just reinvented flower power or something
11:57:45 <ehird> Such patterns are not uncommon, but sure.
11:57:47 <ehird> Screenshot 'er up.
11:57:55 <ehird> Save a notebook and send it to me!
11:57:57 <AnMaster> ehird, the expression is http://sprunge.us/QMhM
11:58:12 <ehird> btw, those lines at the right side select various parts of the expression
11:58:29 <ehird> AnMaster: That Function would be more idiomatically written with lambda syntax
11:58:48 <ehird> (#+#2)& → \x,y→x+y
11:58:49 <AnMaster> ehird, or you mean the colour one?
11:58:52 <ehird> # is #1, #n is argument n
11:58:59 <ehird> you postfix the expression with *
11:59:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I just based it on the examples at http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/ref/ColorFunction.html
11:59:36 <ehird> well, maybe it isn't more idiomatic, but it is shorter, and mathematica is tedious to write :P
11:59:46 <AnMaster> ehird, also I didn't quite grook that syntax you just gave above
11:59:55 <AnMaster> ehird, agreed it is tedious to write indeed
12:00:04 <ehird> [19:57] ehird: btw, those lines at the right side select various parts of the expression
12:00:04 <ehird> other tips: In and and Out actually are real arrays, you can access them in expressions; % means Out[last line], Mod+L recalls the last line, you can modify lines in place and re-evaluate them to replace them
12:00:10 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway what do you think of the result of that plot?
12:00:49 <ehird> Who spiked my drink?
12:01:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, to explain:
12:01:44 <ehird> By == I just mean is equivalent; they aren't technically equal, but they behave identically
12:01:44 <ehird> (# + 2) & == Function[x, x + 2]
12:01:44 <ehird> (# + 2 * #2) & == Function[{x, y}, x + 2 * y]
12:01:56 <ehird> (...) & is a lambda, # is the first argument, #1 is too, #n is argument n
12:02:57 <AnMaster> ehird, how does this call Hue, Sin and Arg?
12:02:58 <ehird> AnMaster: To explain: Mathematica has postfix operators. Yes, you read that right. That's how 3! works.
12:03:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Umm... the body of a lambda is just an expression.
12:03:14 <AnMaster> ehird, that makes perfect sense
12:03:16 <ehird> How on earth is this confusing to you?
12:03:32 <ehird> Your ColorFunction would be written as:
12:03:49 <AnMaster> I should probably define f to be the function I'm plotting or something
12:03:52 <ehird> (Hue[Arg[2 (# + I*#2)^3 - ...]) &
12:04:01 <ehird> WTF are you confused about?
12:04:03 <ehird> It's just lambda syntax.
12:04:20 <ehird> No, you use expressions inline with Plot3D.
12:04:35 <ehird> Don't define a function unless you need to, and if you must use PlotFunction.
12:04:37 <AnMaster> code duplication, can't be having with that
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12:04:47 <ehird> Oh, you use it more than once? So you do.
12:04:52 <ehird> AnMaster: I think there is a way to simplify this.
12:04:57 <ehird> So that there is no duplication.
12:05:00 <ehird> But yeah, use PlotFunction and co.
12:05:11 <AnMaster> No search results for PlotFunction
12:05:17 <ehird> lemme try and find it
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12:05:27 <ehird> Just call the function then
12:07:16 <AnMaster> well defining a function then using it in Plot3D seems to work
12:07:23 <AnMaster> maybe PlotFunction was for older versions?
12:08:34 <ehird> No, it let you actually do
12:08:41 <ehird> PlotFunction[f, {10, 50}]
12:08:43 <ehird> I may be imagining it
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12:09:26 * AnMaster wonders if there is a parametric 3D plot
12:09:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Right click → Copy As → LaTeX.
12:09:53 <ehird> I didn't mean to address that to you.
12:09:55 <ehird> I was just noting a fun thing.
12:10:45 <AnMaster> ehird, yet mathematica claims to have uniquely superior state of the art math type setting
12:10:53 <AnMaster> I'm certain I saw that somewhere
12:11:00 <ehird> Well, Mathematica's TraditionalForm output is very nice.
12:11:11 <ehird> (try TraditionalForm[Hold[some expression]])
12:11:40 <ehird> It can even interpret a subset of TraditionalForm's output.
12:11:46 <AnMaster> http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/ref/RegionPlot3D.html <-- nice
12:12:50 <ehird> ooh, RegionPlot3D[x y z < 1, {x, -5, 5}, {y, -5, 5}, {z, -5, 5},
12:12:50 <ehird> PlotStyle -> Directive[Yellow, Opacity[0.5]], Mesh -> None] is pretty.
12:13:05 <ehird> Apparently that's \text{RegionPlot3D}[x y z<1,\{x,-5,5\},\{y,-5,5\},\{z,-5,5\},\text{PlotStyle}\to \text{Directive}[\text{Yellow},\text{Opacity}[0.5]],\text{Mesh}\to \text{None}] in LaTeX.
12:13:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't quite think that is true
12:14:15 <AnMaster> well, I guess it depends, I don't think the Plot commands does have any good translations
12:14:24 <ehird> It's copying the formula itself.
12:14:34 <AnMaster> ehird, it should generate pstricks commands XD
12:14:36 <ehird> Not TeX that evaluates the formula.
12:14:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, it's just like how it'll give you 2+2 instead of \horriblemacromagic{add}{2}{2}.
12:14:57 <ehird> Because it should show as 2+2, not 4.
12:15:10 <ehird> TeXForm::unspt: TeXForm of Graphics3DBox[<<1>>,<<7>>,ViewVertical->{-0.210506,0.583037,0.784701}] is not supported. >>
12:15:18 <ehird> Aww. Gimme a LaTeX version of the plot itself! :P
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12:16:43 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, wolfram is a narcissist but that's mostly the documentation's fault, usually the actual meat is good, if slow and buggy
12:16:47 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is non-trivial. Did you want it as an asymptote graph? Or pstricks? Or something else?
12:16:58 <ehird> wolfram mostly sits around, mathematica isn't really his these days
12:17:14 <ehird> AnMaster: I want it rotatable in the output pdf, clearly.
12:17:14 <AnMaster> ehird, he still write the docs?
12:17:24 <ehird> Adobe recently added Flash embedding to pdfs...
12:17:30 <ehird> And there's a C→ActionScript converter...
12:17:34 <ehird> And Mathematica is mostly C...
12:17:37 <ehird> Do you see where I'm going? XD
12:18:00 <ehird> Yeah, it's called Alchemy
12:18:06 <ehird> There's a Flash port of Doom
12:18:14 <ehird> http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/470460
12:18:36 <ehird> "Recompiled from the original sources by Mike, using Alchemy! Thanks Adobe!"
12:18:43 <ehird> Not that much of a port, then.
12:18:54 <AnMaster> ehird, try changing the range to -Pi/Pi in the "Who spiked my drink" plot
12:19:05 <AnMaster> to be exact, a strange message
12:19:07 <ehird> repaste the expression?
12:19:39 <AnMaster> Power:indet:Indeterminate expression (0.+0.ii)^(0+0.ii) encountered
12:20:00 <ehird> Paste the expression and I'll diagnose.
12:20:59 <ehird> 01:03:34 <AnMaster> maxima is a lot less buggy. for a start
12:20:59 <ehird> well, and a lot less featureful :) maxima is alright, but it doesn't cover everything mathematica does
12:21:40 <AnMaster> ehird, btw how do you zoom in on a part of a plot in mathematica?
12:21:40 <ehird> AnMaster: when you see an error click the >> next to it
12:21:44 <ehird> that opens in the built-in docs though, ha.
12:22:43 <ehird> AnMaster: it's shortcuts; shift-drag moves the image, alt-drag i think zooms
12:23:01 <ehird> Drag \[LongDash] interactively rotate a 3D graphic
12:23:04 <ehird> Shift+Drag \[LongDash] zoom a 3D graphic
12:23:08 <ehird> Ctrl+Drag \[LongDash] pan a 3D graphic
12:23:15 <ehird> "Mathematica provides real-time view control for all 3D graphics, wherever they may appear in a document. Mathematica's advanced human interface device system also automatically supports joystick and gamepad 3D graphics control, with special features available on the Wolfram Research 2+12 degree-of-freedom gamepad."
12:23:18 <ehird> Wow, they have a gamepad.
12:23:30 <ehird> btw for me shift-drag isn't zoom i guess ymmv
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12:23:47 <ehird> AnMaster: if you zoom in you can see a white patch where the graph was cut
12:23:53 <ehird> that's the effects of the Poewr::indet error
12:24:10 <ehird> "This arithmetic corresponds to multiplying zero and infinity:"
12:24:14 <ehird> Power means it happened when doing a power
12:24:19 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean the "slit" in the middle?
12:24:24 <ehird> The expression is, removing the immaginary part, 0^0
12:24:26 <AnMaster> that was there in the smaller version too
12:24:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, yes.
12:24:36 <ehird> But you can see it more clearly zoomed in.
12:24:40 <AnMaster> ehird, the warning wasn't there then
12:24:54 <ehird> tl;dr your plotting function does 0^0 at one point
12:25:35 <ehird> ::indet means that the expression is indeterminate
12:25:38 <AnMaster> well that's intended, it isn't well defined over the whole range
12:25:54 <ehird> AnMaster: But you told Plot3D to plot over that range.
12:26:02 <AnMaster> ehird, screenshot you asked for http://omploader.org/vMnhpbg
12:26:10 <ehird> AnMaster: So add a safe guard.
12:26:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Huh. I guess Qt Mathematica is just neglected :P
12:26:28 <ehird> Also, argh! Turn the anntialiasing up to full in the settings!
12:26:35 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes and? If there are asymptotes I may still want to plot over that range
12:26:41 <ehird> Appearance → Graphics → Highest Quality
12:26:51 <ehird> AnMaster: If you can'tt compute the value for that point, you can't plot that point. Simple as.
12:27:23 <AnMaster> ehird, that setting makes no difference
12:27:35 <ehird> AnMaster: you have to reevaluate an expression
12:27:37 <ehird> maybe even restart mathematica
12:28:44 <AnMaster> ehird, none of those changed it
12:29:01 <ehird> i told you to go with the ati graphics
12:29:06 <ehird> but did you listen ohhh no :)
12:29:19 <AnMaster> ehird, ati graphics were reported to have power usage issues too
12:29:30 <ehird> surely not at low load.
12:29:38 <ehird> who cares anyway, you get like 2 hours of battery anyway
12:29:41 <ehird> that's near-useless
12:29:57 <AnMaster> and from what I heard, the open source drivers are still buggy for ati
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12:30:38 <AnMaster> <ehird> Shift+Drag \[LongDash] zoom a 3D graphic
12:30:38 <AnMaster> <ehird> Ctrl+Drag \[LongDash] pan a 3D graphic
12:30:41 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, they are, but ati have released specifications freely
12:30:55 <ehird> so using their closed-source drivers temporarily isn't some huge moral issue :P
12:31:19 <AnMaster> ehird, their closed source drivers are worse
12:31:29 <ehird> If you have a supported card, fglrx is nice.
12:31:38 <ehird> A supported, recent card, that is.
12:31:40 <AnMaster> ehird, fglrx crashed and froze all the time
12:31:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Some years ago, yes.
12:31:56 <ehird> Nowadays, they're competitive with nvidia's proprietary drivers, which are nice.
12:32:17 <AnMaster> I can't believe this... mathematica only provides one level of undo
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12:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, most programs provide more
12:40:33 <ehird> Ah, in the text entry field.
12:40:38 <ehird> I just backspace, usually.
12:40:58 <zzo38> I fixed my character's back-story, I think?? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/raw_transcripts/Vyb_back_story.txt
12:41:58 <zzo38> If you really want to see the true power of Icoruma, look at spells.irm
12:42:44 <AnMaster> ehird, would want to undo last operation, say, rotating a graph
12:42:58 <ehird> AnMaster: You can reset that by right-clicking and choosing an option, I think.
12:42:59 <zzo38> Maybe I should read the log
12:43:01 <AnMaster> or even evaluating an expression
12:45:49 <ehird> AnMaster: highlight the result line and delete it.
12:46:16 <AnMaster> ehird, what if I was re-evaluating over an old result?
12:46:40 <ehird> AnMaster: What about it?
12:46:45 <ehird> Doing that is perfectly kosher.
12:48:49 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> AnMaster: highlight the result line and delete it."
12:49:14 <ehird> Oh, return the evaluatation?
12:49:37 <ehird> Well, yeah, don't overwrite if you don't want to overwrite.
12:50:08 <AnMaster> ehird, realised that too late? well sure, you can be extra careful and such, still a bit irritating
12:50:31 <ehird> Just use Mod+L to try out new ideas.
12:52:08 <AnMaster> anyway, can't test now, laptop turned off and in backpack for tomorrow, cya going to sleep soon (will probably return for a short bit in 0.5-1 hour or so)
12:52:41 <ehird> AnMaster: what kind of sleep is that
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12:58:18 <ehird> no AnMaster is just bad at self-control
12:59:38 <ehird> oklofok: HEY i object to offering that room to bsmntbombdood, i'm reserving that shit
13:00:00 * SimonRC likes to use quote-marks when quoting people
13:00:12 <ehird> i didn't quote anyone
13:00:22 <ehird> i couldn't live in finland anyway it has mandatory military service
13:00:42 <zzo38> """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""ACTION likes to use quote-marks when quoting people"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
13:01:17 <SimonRC> where did you get ACTION from?
13:01:45 <ehird> 02:13:07 * AnMaster suspects google turned evil quite some time back. Around the same time as sponsored links were introduced
13:01:45 <ehird> Oh god, advertising! It's so unusual for a capitalist company to be capitalist.
13:02:01 <ehird> Clicking on a sponsored link shortens your lifespan by 5 years, you know. EVIL
13:02:06 <SimonRC> I know that /me is transmitted using "ACTION" and some magic char, but I don't know what kind of IRC client would actually show you that string "ACTION"
13:02:35 <zzo38> And it displays it in red (normal messages are in blue)
13:02:57 <ehird> PHIRC being zzo38's own client.
13:03:03 <ehird> Written in PHP, for the command-line, I believe.
13:03:14 <zzo38> It is written to be used with PuTTY
13:03:15 <ehird> I'll just, uh, leave it at that, yeah.
13:04:57 <SimonRC> zzo38: in what way is it specially adapted for PuTTY?
13:05:05 <SimonRC> and how many users do yuo have? ;-)
13:05:11 <ehird> SimonRC: have you ever *used* cmd.exe?
13:05:18 <zzo38> I don't know if anyone else other than me have used it
13:05:28 <ehird> also, this is the guy who has said he'll switch to linux when he needs to buy a new computer, but he'll make it entirely from scratch
13:05:52 <zzo38> Not entirely from scratch, but more from scratch than most distributions
13:05:54 <SimonRC> ehird: what does cmd.exe have to do with this?
13:06:10 <zzo38> cmd.exe is the Windows command-line
13:06:31 <zzo38> Windows console window doesn't support the ANSI/VT/XTERM terminal codes
13:06:53 <SimonRC> but PuTTY supplies its own terminal emulator
13:07:15 <zzo38> Because PuTTY's terminal emulator supports the codes I used.
13:08:00 <SimonRC> but PuTTY also supports the codes that irssi etc use
13:08:09 <ehird> Yes, but zzo38 didn't write irssi.
13:08:29 <zzo38> The FreeGeek has terminals for Linux, and I have some troubles to run it on there using Xterm or the other ones
13:08:45 <SimonRC> ah! I see what zzo38 means now I think...
13:08:57 <zzo38> I wrote my own because I didn't like some things in other IRC client so I decided to write my own to make it the way I wanted it to be
13:09:28 <SimonRC> zzo38 is on windows, and he wrote an IRC client for use within PuTTY as opposed to for fur use within the windows CLI?
13:09:43 <zzo38> There's a screen-shot if you want to see: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_10/IRC-strange-characters.png
13:09:58 <zzo38> O, and there's another screen-shot: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/PHIRC/screenshot0.png
13:11:12 <SimonRC> I didn't even know that PHP did CLI stuff
13:11:28 <ehird> SimonRC: It does ... painfully...
13:11:40 <SimonRC> the display format seems to be quite close to the IRC protocol
13:11:42 <ehird> SimonRC: It is, of course, a hideous abuse.
13:11:51 <ehird> Quite close — you mean, identical.
13:12:13 <SimonRC> doesn't it get confusing if you are on 20 channels?
13:12:42 <zzo38> PHP does do CLI stuff. And some programs, such as FurryScript, are a CLI program and then other PHP program can include it in a HTML form
13:12:50 <ehird> zzo38 is only in here
13:13:14 <zzo38> And, yes it can get confusing on 20 channels if you use that many channels on the same server at once!!
13:13:22 <SimonRC> zzo38 must be the re-incarnation of Chuck Moore or something
13:13:28 <zzo38> But I don't ever use that many channels at once, not even on separate servers
13:14:08 <ehird> SimonRC: Hey, Chuck Moore used a *decent* language. :)
13:14:16 <ehird> also, can an alive person really be reincarnated?
13:14:31 <zzo38> Chuck Moore, O, I did write Forth interpreters, and some programs in some Forth systems too.
13:14:45 <zzo38> I put a Forth interpreter in MegaZeux, and I wrote a program for writing GameBoy programs in Gforth
13:15:44 <ehird> It'd be fun to work for Chuck Moore's company. I wonder if his odd manner of speech is the same in person.
13:17:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: what kind of sleep is that <-- taking a shower before
13:18:34 <SimonRC> zzo38: I was thinking more about the willingness to put lots of effort into replacing huge existing bits of software with stuff you wrote yourself
13:18:59 <ehird> I don't think syntax-highlighting IRC really takes *that* much code...
13:19:26 <AnMaster> ehird, what would it syntax highlight on?
13:19:39 <SimonRC> his software does what he needs with way less code than ordinary irc clients
13:19:40 <ehird> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.12.06
13:19:55 <ehird> SimonRC: yes, but i contend that the simple code involved isn't that much effort
13:20:20 <ehird> AnMaster: i meantt
13:20:30 <ehird> to see what we're talking about
13:20:31 <ehird> SimonRC: his fork of Conkeror with ... green tabs, and rewritten gopher support with a scripting language... that's probably a better example
13:20:35 <AnMaster> a few more lines to handle join/part/quit and /me
13:20:58 <ehird> AnMaster: you're rambling about an irrelevant thing.
13:21:05 <SimonRC> ah, yeah, not that much effort
13:21:31 <ehird> (his fork's at http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/; i'll leave that root link there because it's fun trying to figure out where the page is)
13:21:32 <SimonRC> zzo38: where do you find the time to write all that sort of stuff?
13:21:48 <zzo38> SimonRC: I don't know
13:22:18 <SimonRC> or does it not actually take that much time
13:23:09 <zzo38> You can try to figure out
13:23:49 <AnMaster> ehird, ah you mean highlighting the protocol itself yes
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13:27:55 <ehird> someone tell that guy it's 0x
13:28:43 <oerjan> <ehird> also, can an alive person really be reincarnated? <-- i've read claims to that effect. after all in some spiritual traditions, time is an illusion as is the individual
13:29:22 <ehird> i was going to say "yes, but that's just unsubstantiated bullshit". then i realised we were talking about reincarnation
13:29:24 <AnMaster> ehird, invalid in nicks though
13:29:31 <ehird> AnMaster: you're invalid in nicks.
13:32:26 <ehird> int width_times_height_minus_one = width * (height - 1);
13:33:00 <ehird> A really terribly-written one, clearly.
13:33:11 <ehird> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1703757
13:34:22 <ehird> I mean... not only is the name hideously verbose, not descriptive and much longer than the actual expression, it's an expression that has near NO cost.
13:34:41 <zzo38> But what is the program? What program is this function part of?
13:34:46 <ehird> And "int * map", way to have the disadvantages of "int* map" while still looking weird.
13:34:56 <ehird> that is the entire "program"
13:35:10 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/abh84/the_1717_challenge/c0grbec
13:35:10 <ehird> includes link for what it's for
13:35:17 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/abh84/the_1717_challenge/c0grssk counterpoint — a really concise J version
13:35:23 <zzo38> I prefer like "int*map" instead of "int * map"
13:35:54 <zzo38> I sometimes program in C, I added codes into MegaZeux in C
13:36:59 <ehird> int*map is alright since the * is almost like a space, but I would write int *map too.
13:37:02 <AnMaster> zzo38, so you write int*map,*foo;
13:37:11 <ehird> And I omit spaces almost always.
13:37:24 <ehird> (e.g. i'd write x=(y*z)/f; instead of x = (y * z) / f;
13:37:36 <zzo38> No. I never declare multiple pointers on the same line, and I also never declare pointers and non-pointers on the same line
13:37:40 <ehird> and if(x) instead of if (x)
13:37:45 <ehird> and if(x){ instead of if (x) {
13:37:48 <pikhq> I'd generally write int *map, as well. For such is what the good Lords of C, K&R intended.
13:37:53 <zzo38> I write like: if(x) {
13:37:55 <ehird> well, i do add whitespace in places that others don't
13:38:07 <ehird> that way you can grep for ^foo(
13:38:20 <ehird> pikhq: k&r is obsolete, plan 9 c is the amended k&r style! :-P
13:38:29 <ehird> (which is, uh, identical to what I just said)
13:38:41 <pikhq> ehird: Plan 9 C is also acceptable. It offends not.
13:39:26 <ehird> Preferring K&R over Plan 9 C is like, um, only reading the KJV! As opposed to some other bible that is. Not as opposed to no bible. Also only the Christian bible.
13:39:26 <zzo38> I find it confusing to see "int *map=something;" so that's why I omit the space.
13:39:39 <ehird> zzo38: I find that quite readable.
13:39:47 <ehird> The value assigned is bound tightly to the variable.
13:39:58 <ehird> int a=3, b=4, c=5; is nice and readable.
13:40:10 <zzo38> It is confusing because it is the value of the variable called "map" not the value of the variable called "*map" at first
13:40:13 <ehird> int a = 3, b = 4, c = 5; makes it harder to distinguish each definition, so I omit the spaces.
13:40:14 <AnMaster> ehird, what about int a,b,c;\na=b=c=3;
13:40:21 <ehird> zzo38: That's true.
13:40:34 <ehird> AnMaster: doesn't int a=b=c=3; work?
13:40:45 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd write it as either
13:40:58 <ehird> depending on how i felt.
13:41:01 <ehird> If the names were longer, probably the latter.
13:41:01 <SimonRC> the last time I wrote C code it was like that first prototype J interpreter. Incredibly dense and macroy, all functions fitting on 1 line.
13:41:10 <ehird> If they're literally a, b and c I would write it without the spaces.
13:41:17 <ehird> I don't make functions fit on one line :P
13:41:22 <AnMaster> I just try to make my code reasonably readable when it comes to spacing
13:41:38 <ehird> AnMaster: I've read your code and find it to have too many spaces to read nicely.
13:41:49 <ehird> Spaces are meant to separate; when you put them around everything, it's like a linear blob of mud.
13:41:49 <AnMaster> ehird, different taste *shrug*
13:41:55 <ehird> Sure, each operator looks sparkly and pretty.
13:42:02 <ehird> But it's disconnected, floating away from the relevant operandss.
13:42:08 <AnMaster> ehird, newly washed and hand polished!
13:42:33 <ehird> AnMaster: So, you're inconsistent too? Whoopy
13:42:41 <ehird> Even K&R C omitted quite a lot of spaces, btw.
13:42:44 <AnMaster> ehird, well sure, if it is for readability
13:42:54 <ehird> You'd never catch "a = (b * c) / f;" being written by them.
13:42:59 <AnMaster> and why should I care about K&R? I mostly write the code to be readable by myself
13:42:59 <ehird> Maybe "a = (b*c)/f;" at most.
13:43:14 <ehird> Because a lot of people who write in such a hideous over-spaced style claim to write in K&R style.
13:43:19 <Deewiant> ehird: I'm more offended by the redundant brackets than the whitespace :-P
13:43:21 <AnMaster> ehird, what about a = ( b * c ) / f ;
13:43:50 <ehird> Deewiant: In my opinion, b*c/f is easily parsed as both b*(c/f) and (b*c)/f.
13:44:08 <AnMaster> ehird, */+- have easy to remember well defined ordering
13:44:18 <AnMaster> other operators may be harder to remember
13:44:19 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't want to remember it, it's arbitray.
13:44:30 <AnMaster> ehird, it is standard math practise
13:44:39 <ehird> C isn't mathematics.
13:44:57 <AnMaster> ehird, those are math expressions. And?
13:45:18 <ehird> For instance, a+b > a can be true.
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13:45:29 <ehird> and all sorts of things
13:45:57 <pikhq> The rule to use with parentheses, IMO, is to use them when the order of operations could reasonably be misunderstood.
13:46:15 <ehird> I would say that (a*b)/f is one of those cases.
13:46:57 <AnMaster> I don't find the (a*b)/f irritating
13:47:03 <ehird> I wonder why I chose f for that variable.
13:47:16 <pikhq> I would also like to note that it only makes a difference with integer arithmetic as done in most programming languages, and not on the reals...
13:47:42 <ehird> If there's a disagreement about whether it was ambiguous between two people who don't think the other is *completely* insane, then it's ambiguous.
13:47:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: a*(b/f) = (a*b)/f in "real math".
13:47:49 <Deewiant> It makes a difference with floating-point arithmetic as well
13:47:59 <pikhq> Deewiant: Also true.
13:48:04 <pikhq> A float is definitely not a real.
13:48:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, just couldn't parse the English there
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14:13:40 * ehird rewrites his sconvert utility in haskell
14:14:00 <oerjan> haskell for vertical scones
14:14:15 <ehird> Storage Convert. :P
14:16:00 <ehird> http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=231
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14:40:46 <nate> can I get assistance here on brainfuck code?
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15:08:52 <ehird> Yes, if you're patient.
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15:17:51 <SimonRC> ah, well, better Nate than Lever!
15:18:09 <ehird> I spent half an hour reading that joke and at the end I was "..." for about as long
15:18:26 <ehird> don't get me wrong, it was an enjoyable story
15:18:30 <SimonRC> it is traditional to put a small novel-worth of shaggy dog story before that pun
15:19:07 <SimonRC> "lever" and "never" don't rhyme in English
15:19:22 <ehird> eh, my brain adjusted for it
15:19:36 <ehird> as soon as I read "better Nate than" my brain went into RHYME AT ALL COSTS mode
15:20:21 <ehird> it would be fun to have a novel of Finnegans Wake length that all builds up to one terrible pun
15:20:28 * SimonRC recalls the guy that didn't realise you could be in more than one IRC channel at once
15:21:01 <SimonRC> it would need to be written "properly", otherwise people wouldn't stick at it long enough
15:21:12 <SimonRC> I mean, so it actually worked without the pun
15:21:31 <SimonRC> alas, then the editor would cut the pun at the end as ruining the whole tone of the book
15:21:59 <SimonRC> unless the whole thing was suficiently surreal, when you might get away with just hinting at it
15:22:12 <ehird> publish it on the internet, have a hardcopy on lulu, and solicit donations. you'll get very little money and little exposure, but it's free :P
15:22:15 <ehird> and there's no editors
15:22:37 <ehird> SimonRC: maybe the book could turn into a book about writing the book gradually
15:22:51 <ehird> and so the ending pun could be mentioned as a pun you were *going* to add
15:23:14 <ehird> then all the characters laugh, for which there is no explanation
15:25:13 <ehird> this is just reminding me that i have a semi-decent idea for an AI short story and no writing talent, topic change time!
15:26:07 <ehird> artificial intelligence
15:26:20 <ehird> "AI short story" is confusing, agreed
15:27:36 <ehird> a short story concerning an artificial intelligence (or indeed many); subgenre of scifi
15:27:44 <ehird> beyond that, I'm sure you own a dictionary :-P
15:28:01 <ehird> i guess if i wanted to be specific it'd technically about the singularity
15:28:13 <ehird> but beyond that there starts to be a fine line between a specific genre and the actual story :P
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15:29:51 <ehird> what did you think i meant?
15:29:53 <ehird> SimonRC: i said that earlier
15:36:45 <OxE6> yeah, this is the best I can do on irc unfortunately :(
15:56:12 <ehird> evaluates to 0x56 in all good languages!
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16:00:05 <ehird> More people should use SI prefixes on currency!
16:00:14 <ehird> 1 million dollars? Pah! 1 M$, methinks!
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16:01:13 <Asztal> people already say megabucks
16:01:13 <ehird> Oh, and if you have 10^21 bucks, well that'd be 1 Z$.
16:01:27 <ehird> Asztal: Yes, but they never say M$!
16:01:37 <ehird> Nor do they progress past M!
16:01:42 <ehird> Gigadollar sounds so cool.
16:01:55 <OxE6> 1.21 JIGGAWATTS!
16:01:57 <Asztal> I used megametres a lot back in school
16:02:45 <ehird> Most people would say 1,000 km :P
16:02:55 <ehird> 1 Ym = really fucking long
16:03:02 <ehird> Z is the best prefix though.
16:03:04 <ehird> I mean, it's a bloody Z.
16:04:29 <ehird> OTOH, I think furlong/firkin/fortnight is the best system of measurements.
16:04:32 <ehird> Perhaps attoparsecs, too.
16:05:33 <ehird> 60 km/h is 100 kilofurlongs per fortnight (100 kfl/fn). The more you know.
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16:08:33 <OxE6> what about beard seconds? :D
16:08:48 <ehird> SECONDS ARE A HERETICAL UNIT OF MEASUREMENT!
16:09:01 <ehird> My only qualm with the furlong/firkin/fortnight system is that it uses SI prefixes.
16:09:14 <OxE6> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_humorous_units_of_measurement#Beard-second
16:09:35 <ehird> Beardseconds are necessarily related to seconds.
16:09:58 <OxE6> what measurements of time are "good" then?
16:10:45 <ehird> Dunno. It'd be fun to devise an entirely new system of measurements.
16:10:51 <ehird> Ooh, a smoot might be a good base.
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16:11:40 <mycroftiv> im surprised an article this awesome has survived the rampaging wikicops and deletionists
16:12:00 <ehird> "Philosophers talking about Jeremy Bentham's Utilitarianism sometimes use the conceptual unit of the Hedon to describe the amount of pleasure, equivalent to the amount of pleasure a person receives from gaining one util of utility."
16:12:10 <ehird> It's utilon, bitches!
16:12:12 <ehird> Yudkowsky says so.
16:12:46 <ehird> hedon vs util(on) reminds me of watt vs joule
16:14:33 <ehird> I wonder if anyone's formalised Utilitarianism (given black boxes to deal with fiddly ill-defined human matters)
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16:24:09 <Gregor> Mmm, cinnamon peppermint soda.
16:25:48 <ehird> Gregor: send me a bottle.
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16:25:57 <Gregor> Send yourself a bottle!
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16:26:16 <ehird> I invented a word! conceviances, n. that which is conceived. misconceviances, n. that which is misconceived.
16:26:28 <ehird> Both are excellent words to describe: ideas; children.
16:26:29 <Pthing> ehird, in a bunch of cases sure
16:26:36 <Pthing> usually in terms of monetary compensation though
16:26:46 <ehird> yeah i don't see utilitarianism as being economic
16:26:57 <Pthing> like did you never see one of those industrial-injury payout tables
16:27:04 <Pthing> a lost digit gets you such-and-such
16:27:07 <Pthing> a lost limb is worth this
16:27:21 <Pthing> a lost eye is worth another amount
16:27:28 <ehird> that's more about physical pain than the more lofty hedonism of utilitarianism, imo
16:27:40 <Pthing> it's about dismemberment, not pain
16:27:52 <ehird> well, you know what i mean
16:27:55 <ehird> that's about physical injuries
16:28:04 <Pthing> so for example, the loss of a right hand is more than the loss of a left hand (mutatis mutandis)
16:28:10 <ehird> utilitarianism is mostly about intellectual achievement
16:28:16 <ehird> Pthing: that's leftist! :P
16:28:22 <Pthing> hence mutatis mutandis
16:28:29 <Pthing> i don't just break out in latin for no reason >:|
16:29:50 <ehird> Where as I do! Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
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23:38:02 <AnMaster> <SimonRC> ah, well, better Nate than Lever! <-- I did get the joke in the first context (of that nick) but what on earth was the stuff about the dog story about?
23:40:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> Perhaps attoparsecs, too. <-- that works out to.. uh... 3 cm or such?
23:40:58 <coppro> according to google, 3.09
23:41:33 <AnMaster> <ehird> Dunno. It'd be fun to devise an entirely new system of measurements. <-- centifortnight?
23:43:56 <AnMaster> coppro, units(1) claim 3.0856776
23:44:11 <coppro> AnMaster: I was rounding
23:44:22 <coppro> also, Planck units > all
23:44:29 <AnMaster> (I actually gussed it would work out to "less than a meter, more than a millimeter" before checking)
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05:13:30 <AnMaster> I'm getting some strange behaviour here that I'm unable to explain
05:13:48 <ais523> no, I'm not particularly good at SQL
05:14:18 <AnMaster> ais523, ah so know any issues with ((a full join b on ...) left join c on ...) ?
05:14:31 <AnMaster> basically the outer one is behaving as a full join for unknown reason
05:14:34 <ais523> that that looks like a pain to optimise?
05:15:07 <AnMaster> ais523, this isn't meant to run fast, it is a off by one thing to verify stuff before fixing normalising in this exercise
05:15:18 <AnMaster> well the nested join query is not in the exercise itself
05:15:41 <AnMaster> I just try to work out if this is reasonable
05:20:23 <AnMaster> ais523, okay it seems to be a bug. But I have a much more recent version than when it should have been fixed
05:25:35 <AnMaster> ffs. sqlite doesn't support right/full outer joins
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05:37:33 <AnMaster> ais523, do you think syntax errors should be deterministic?
05:37:43 <ais523> depends on the language
05:37:55 <ais523> it's close enough to INTERCAL, so why bother
05:38:11 <AnMaster> ais523, well I'm getting random syntax errors once in a while, re-executing the query seems to work
05:38:21 <ais523> sounds like an interp bug
05:41:20 <AnMaster> ais523, it could be in the frontend though
05:41:25 <AnMaster> I'm not using the command line tool
05:41:49 <AnMaster> oh and that full/left bug seems to actually have been correct. It was incorrect in the other dbms instead
05:44:04 <ais523> ehird: the Google "did you mean" thing keeps backfiring on me because I mostly use it for esolang searches
05:44:11 <ais523> where what it thinks is a misspelling is actually what I meant
05:44:16 <ais523> no real problem, though, it's just an extra click
05:44:57 <ais523> also, there seems to be a euro sign in clog's mojibake logs; strange choice of encoding to generate the mojibake in...
05:52:31 <ais523> 06:04:20 <ehird> nested: A[X][Y] = A[(X*(sizeof A / sizeof A[0]))+Y]
05:52:33 <ais523> 06:04:21 <ehird> | {A[X]:nested}[Y] = A[(X*(sizeof A / sizeof A[0]))+Y]
05:52:37 <AnMaster> ais523, where is the mojibake?
05:52:39 <ais523> now I'm trying to think of a way to get that to parse as valid Perl
05:52:42 <ais523> AnMaster: a couple of days ago
05:52:57 <ais523> possibly it shows for me and not you, mojibake tends to do that sort of thing
05:53:08 <AnMaster> ais523, link to log in question?
05:53:40 <ais523> or failing that, "Bing as Search Engine Provider"
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06:34:10 <AnMaster> ais523, make help: assuming I have a variable like: DIAGRAMS = foo bar quux, then I want a list like foo.dot bar.dot and quux.dot, oh and another one like foo.svg bar.svg quux.svg
06:34:16 <AnMaster> how do I do that based on the first variable
06:34:20 <AnMaster> I also want same for png and such
06:34:32 <AnMaster> so just two variables maintained separately would be irritating
06:35:03 <AnMaster> doing all: $(DIAGRAMS).svg $(DIAGRAMS).png just doesn't work
06:37:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I can depend on gnu make here
06:37:33 <AnMaster> but I'm having problems navigating the info pages
06:38:46 <ais523_> AnMaster: I'm not sure, and am busy trying to teach Java
06:38:55 <ais523_> generally speaking I'd do it by hand, though
06:39:08 <ais523_> I tend to code a lot more explicitly in makefiles than most people
06:39:09 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure I have seen a simple solution for it
06:40:13 <ais523_> not to me, I'm used to langs like C
06:40:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: $(addsuffix .svg, $(DIAGRAMS)) ?
06:41:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I'm pretty sure the thing I saw was much shorter. Maybe it was for switching from one suffix to another
06:41:41 <AnMaster> (just defining all as .dot and them substituting the suffix somehow would also work)
06:42:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes that seems like it
06:43:06 <AnMaster> weird I can't find that in any of the info pages of gnu make
06:43:20 <fizzie> $(var:x=y) is equivalent to $(patsubst x,y,$(var)).
06:43:29 <fizzie> "8.2 Functions for String Substitution and Analysis" in the GNU Make Manual.
06:44:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, I was looking under the using variables chapter
06:44:16 <fizzie> Or actually $(patsubst %x,%y,$(var)) to be exact.
06:45:03 <AnMaster> weird thing: entering an absolute path starting with / in firefox works fine
06:45:12 <AnMaster> entering one starting with ~ for your home dir
06:45:25 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, it's in that chapter too: "6.3.1 Substitution References"
06:45:49 <Deewiant> ~ is a shell-specific thing, file paths aren't
06:46:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it works in the open and save dialogs however
06:46:31 <Deewiant> File paths are trivially distinguishable from web addresses and you need to support them anyway for command-line launching
06:46:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, that's GTK for you, not Firefox.
06:47:37 <fizzie> You can probably use $(DIAGRAMS:%=%.svg) -- maybe even $(DIAGRAMS:=.svg) -- if you don't want the .dot suffixes in the definition, but I guess that's up to you.
06:47:58 * AnMaster wonders why subgraphs doesn't seem to work
06:48:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, those .dot suffixes are fine
06:58:06 <AnMaster> meh, can't get clusters to draw an ellipse around :/
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07:45:59 <AnMaster> "Of course, the SELECT statement is compatible with the SQL standard. But there are some extensions and some missing features."
07:46:09 <AnMaster> extensions can allow compatible yes
07:50:04 <ais523_> SQL is about as nonstandardised as is theoretically possible for something so widely used
07:50:13 <ais523_> (there is a standard, just everyone seems to ignore it...)
07:51:09 <AnMaster> ais523_, yes I know, still doesn't make that quote from postgresql docs less funny
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08:05:31 <uorygl> mkdir -p //example.com/foo/bar
08:06:22 <uorygl> < Deewiant> File paths are trivially distinguishable from web addresses
08:06:35 <AnMaster> uorygl, it is, there is no http: before that
08:07:08 <Deewiant> It's the "/" in the beginning that gives it away (or "C:\" or whatever on windows)
08:07:30 <AnMaster> ~ at the start of a domain name is also unheard of
08:07:34 <uorygl> mkdir -p http://example.com/foo/bar
08:07:53 <uorygl> Slashes in domain names are so cute.
08:08:46 <AnMaster> all I suggest is that the anything matching /^(\/|~\/)/ is a local url (~ has no special meaning in this regex dialect, whichever one it is)
08:09:17 <ais523_> AnMaster: it had better be PCRE, as posix regex doesn't treat ( specially
08:09:42 <AnMaster> ais523_, and that is only basic posix
08:09:49 <AnMaster> extended posix does treat it specially
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08:42:43 <ais523_> hey, I've just realised that the list of IRC channels I'm in which have had people join in them since I last looked at them forms a bloom hash of people who have joined IRC
08:42:58 <ais523_> not a very good one, though, because I'm not in enough channels
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09:25:43 <oerjan> and this time i did read the first panel first, and immediately expected a pun
09:26:56 <oerjan> mordechai, ghost, bank employee
09:27:32 <oerjan> alas i didn't manage to guess the pun beforehand
09:27:43 <oerjan> not that i tried for very long
09:28:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, I didn't get the pun. Or rather. I understand it is on "dead men tell no tails", but then "huh?"
09:28:41 <oerjan> well-known proverb, or so
09:29:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah but I don't see why "tail no tellers" is funny
09:30:34 <oerjan> well it's not a particularly good pun. it scans badly too :D
09:31:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is "teller" supposed to mean
09:31:26 <oerjan> it's a banking profession
09:31:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah well that explains the pun indeed
09:49:51 <AnMaster> oh ffs, why can't graphviz -Tdia actually generate non-broken files
09:50:23 <AnMaster> maybe it is just too much to ask to get the actual edges you know, instead of just the nodes...
09:57:48 <ais523> ehird: your TURKEY BOMB semantics don't work, AFAICT it's possible to have multiple different PUDDINGs
09:58:02 <ais523> I think I was planning to make PUDDINGs lazy so you didn't have to fit the whole thing in memory at once
09:58:28 <AnMaster> ais523, you made that language‽‽
09:58:44 <ais523> I'm one of the few people to attempt to interpret the spec, though
09:59:19 <ais523> and TRIVIA is a general name for all TRIVIA CONCERNING types, I think
09:59:47 <ais523> also, the drinking game is AFAICT the only way to do control flow
10:00:01 <ais523> you can take advantage of the fact that there are two different ways to pass the TURKEY BOMB
10:01:51 <ais523> also, why would you want to email someone 2+2?
10:01:57 <ais523> even if you can do it in a nice little pipeline
10:04:12 <ais523> also, use thinspaces as the thousands specifier
10:04:17 <ais523> because that's the Right Way to do it
10:04:36 <AnMaster> still graphviz doesn't do what I need so I guess I'm stuck with dia
10:05:12 <ais523> as for taking derivatives of constants
10:05:31 <AnMaster> dia even lacks something as simple as "lock object" (which is really useful if you want to align/adjust but keep one of those objects fixed and instead prefer to move the other ones
10:05:44 <AnMaster> nor does there seem to be any way to tell it specific coordinates
10:05:51 <AnMaster> oh and I can't seem to move using the cursor keys
10:06:01 <AnMaster> it moves the view instead (scrolling)
10:06:02 <ais523> go use the INTERCAL definition of "constant" (= "initialised variable you should try hard to avoid changing the value of to avoid confusing yourself"), then you can define the derivative of constants with respect to other constants
10:06:22 <AnMaster> oh and the text label editor does *not* support selections
10:07:12 <AnMaster> hm dia on my desktop seems to do a bit better than on my laptop. One of those issues solved
10:10:07 * AnMaster invents a makefile that calls dia on his desktop to automate exporting to svg. Since that on his laptop is broken
10:19:07 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you think of that idea?
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11:10:55 <oerjan> 'I can imagine the Christians' response to growing evidence of a spherical earth. "Of course there is no doubt that microcurvature is real, but this macrocurvature theory is a ridiculous fabrication."'
11:11:08 <oerjan> (from a pharyngula comment thread)
11:11:59 <oerjan> well of course not, it's silent after all
11:12:33 <oerjan> oh wait he said he wouldn't be here until next weekend? :(
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11:25:18 <ais523> AnMaster: that's what make is designed for, isn't it
11:25:40 <AnMaster> ais523, what? building something on a remote system?
11:25:51 <ais523> following a series of repetitive steps automatically
11:25:57 <AnMaster> ais523, by scp-ing files over, running a command then scping them back
11:26:29 <AnMaster> ssh $(REMHOST) dia -e $(REMPATH)/$@ $(REMPATH)/$<
11:26:29 <AnMaster> scp $(REMHOST):$(REMPATH)/$@ $@
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11:31:54 <AnMaster> ais523, so lets see the crazy way I did today: generate basic thing in graphviz, then export to dot, fix up broken export result manually in dia (and fix the things I couldn't do in graphviz, which was why I needed dia in the first place), then export the whole thing to svg, fix up some minor issues in inkscape, then export to pdf
11:32:22 <AnMaster> s/the whole thing/each diagram/
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11:37:34 * oerjan cannot quite find out whether that thing was an asimov quote or not
11:39:21 <oerjan> the comment quote i pasted
11:40:15 <oerjan> top hit is the comment thread itself
11:40:29 <oerjan> i think it was just inspired
11:41:45 <oerjan> hm the idea also appears in a pandasthumb thread
11:42:41 <ais523> <AnMaster> oh btw another thing I noticed is that Wolfram really likes boasting.
11:42:48 <AnMaster> spherical earth... isn't that universally accepted apart from a few lunatics
11:42:51 <ais523> wow, that took you a while....
11:43:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's an analogy you dumbass
11:43:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, I wasn't aware of the context.
11:45:10 <ais523> AnMaster: a single word which gives 1 google hit all by itself is a "googlewhackblatt", according to New Scientist
11:45:20 <ais523> who coined the word specifically so that it would appear on exactly one website for a while
11:47:52 <oerjan> there's an even more obscure word for it. however it is essentially impossible to find it because the author took strict steps to keep it self-referential.
11:48:01 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't that supposed to be some sort of serious magazine or such?
11:48:17 <ais523> but the penultimate page is rather less serious
11:48:59 <ais523> it's sort of like worsethanfailure, except it refers to science not programming and it's still firmly on the correct side of the shark
11:49:32 <SimonRC> that was good last time I read it
11:49:39 <SimonRC> I think you can read some of it online
11:49:47 <ais523> no, last word's the last page
11:49:51 <ais523> penultimate page is Feedback
11:50:11 <ais523> (Last Word is pretty interesting too, it's basically gives bounties for answering interesting everyday science queries)
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12:08:49 <Gregor> Gingersnap soda: DELICIOUS.
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12:30:00 <ais523> heh, I was reading the discussion about zzo38 being like Chuck Moore, and I accidentally misread it as Chuck Norris
12:30:05 <ais523> which was amusing, to say the least
12:37:15 <AnMaster> you made me actual laugh out loud, that's rare
12:37:25 <ais523> Chuck Norris jokes do that
12:37:41 <AnMaster> ais523, what? make people laugh out loud? not really
12:37:54 <AnMaster> but comparing zzo to Chuck Norris did
12:38:30 <AnMaster> ais523, also you said "accidentally misread" it. It would be pretty strange to intentionally misread that one
12:38:39 <AnMaster> so was that qualification really required?
12:39:10 <oerjan> always unnecessary words
12:42:36 <SimonRC> I have considered some Chck Moore Facts, but ran out of ideas quickly
12:42:49 <SimonRC> I can't stretch the truth very well in that way
12:43:31 <SimonRC> "First Chuck Moore removes the inessential complexity of the problem; then Chuck Moore removes the inessential complexity of the problem; then the problem surrenders."
12:43:52 <ais523> Chuck Moore's so good at computing that uses raw IRC through his own syntax highlighter!
12:43:55 <SimonRC> which is the approach that he advocates in his writings
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12:50:17 <AnMaster> <ais523> Chuck Moore's so good at computing that uses raw IRC through his own syntax highlighter!
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14:50:07 <oerjan> are you sure about this?
14:51:04 <Oranjer> I...well, there's no turning back now, anyway
14:52:59 <Oranjer> so...I mean, will there be a sign?
14:54:07 <Oranjer> is...is that a joke? I can't remember...anything
14:55:35 <oerjan> in that case, you owe me 200 dollars
14:56:13 <oerjan> well you are in the US aren't you
14:57:11 <oerjan> is that one of those fundamentalist ones?
14:57:27 <Oranjer> I hate fundamentalist dollars too
14:58:05 <oerjan> maybe we should go by canadian ones. even if they're less worth
14:58:28 <lament> canadian dollars are not worthless!
14:59:11 <oerjan> i just thought they'd be less fundamentalist
15:00:07 <Oranjer> but the Canadian separatist dollars are worth half, I think
15:01:14 <Oranjer> borders are borders, even if you can't see them from space
15:03:10 <oerjan> let's not cross that line
15:06:45 <oerjan> i think we are going in circles
15:07:10 <OxE6> lets go in octagons instead
15:07:59 <Oranjer> have you read "The Phantom Tollbooth"?
15:08:22 <OxE6> I want some subtraction soup
15:11:31 <oerjan> well as long as it isn't additive
15:11:59 <OxE6> I don't think there are any additives in subtraction soup
15:12:30 <Oranjer> actually, I first read that as "addictive:, I am confused
15:12:45 <oerjan> Oranjer: that was actually intended
15:21:05 <Oranjer> just thinking of the books I gotta write
15:21:18 <Oranjer> and the buziniss I gotta start
15:21:27 <oklofok> yeah i have to write like 7 books for this algebra course
15:21:46 <oerjan> oklofok: you are doing things backwards
15:22:53 <oerjan> in courses, you are supposed to read books not write them
15:23:48 <oklofok> but how would i know how to read them if i haven't written ones myself?
15:23:48 <Oranjer> it could always be some algebra-book-writing course
15:24:05 <Oranjer> I...I have to disagree on that
15:24:21 <Oranjer> if you've written a sentence, you can theoretically write a book
15:25:05 <Oranjer> therefore, it is no more necessary to write a book in order to read them than it is to learn how to make a car from scratch in order to drive it
15:25:06 <oerjan> if you never write a sentence, it is much harder
15:25:54 <oklofok> have i mentioned you people are really weird.
15:26:04 <oerjan> i have to disagree on that ... logic
15:26:15 <oerjan> oklofok: it's the fumes
15:26:35 <oerjan> just the logic, mind you, not the conclusion
15:26:55 <oerjan> the madness-inducing fumes
15:26:59 <Oranjer> well, I also disagree on the logic
15:27:14 <Oranjer> I should have explicitly stated the assumptions
15:28:17 <oerjan> but to really state it properly, you would have to write a book, which would defy the whole purpose
15:30:35 <Oranjer> we could store the assumptions on a site
15:31:19 <Oranjer> then you pick and choose which ones
15:31:56 <SimonRC> reminds me of _Paradise Lost In Cyberspace_
15:32:18 <SimonRC> There was a website there that contained the proof of God's existance.
15:32:35 <Oranjer> did...God disappear afterward?
15:32:37 <SimonRC> But it was infinite, and you never got any close no matter much you read it.
15:32:48 <Oranjer> sounds like Hofstadter stuff
15:34:19 <SimonRC> http://www.angelfire.com/pq/radiohaha/PLICS.html
15:34:43 <SimonRC> not to be confused with a somewhat thematically-similar one by the same guy: http://www.angelfire.com/pq/radiohaha/PLIS.html
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04:09:56 <`Fuco`> Hello guys, I think you might find this interesting: http://fi.muni.cz/~xgoljer/bf.txt :)
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06:58:18 <quantumEd> Busy beaver is a computer science problem to finding the smallest Turing Machine that outputs the most data and eventually halts. This project is an implementation of a Turing Machine in Python and C++ that runs the busy beavers. It also comes with Turing Machine’s tape visualization tool written in Perl.
06:58:51 <quantumEd> what are the first few Busy beavers for brainfuck?
06:59:07 <quantumEd> or similar ? if someone has done a search
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07:02:22 <fizzie> . is the one for length 1. Happy to help.
07:02:58 <fizzie> Most likely a zero byte.
07:06:44 <quantumEd> what's the best way to try and find busy beavers?
07:07:30 <Ilari> And what's the smallest brainfuck program that halts and outputs more bytes than the program code has?
07:08:07 <quantumEd> Ilari I guess if I found the first few busy beavers I would answer that ?
07:09:24 <fizzie> I have a nagging feeling that the subject of a busy-beaver-like function for brainfuck was talked about here once, but I can't really seem to find any references to it.
07:10:28 <quantumEd> wwhat's another language than brainfuck which automatic termination analysis is easier?
07:11:09 <fizzie> If you assume a brainfuck implementation where the cell values are bounded and wrap around, my guess for Ilari's program would be "+[.+]" -- that doesn't look like it could be simplified very much.
07:11:35 <quantumEd> oh right it is ok for Ilaris question not to terminate
07:11:57 <fizzie> No, he said "that halts"; but that one does halt if the cell values wrap-around.
07:12:28 <fizzie> Of course for a question that smells so theoretical, you might opt for some sort of idealized infinite-tape infinite-cell-size brainfuck.
07:13:02 <Ilari> Hmm... And with unbounded cells it should be more interesting. Of course one has to define what "output byte" means in that case. '.' invocation?
07:13:42 <fizzie> Yes, I think you should count the number of . operations there.
07:14:30 <fizzie> And specify deterministicalistically what , will do, or disallow it completely.
07:14:59 <Ilari> At least shortest program that loads cell under pointer by at least 5 greater than its length could be used to construct program that prints more than its length.
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07:18:01 <fizzie> Well, +++[...-] will output 9 values -- the same as the program length -- and you can add one + or ., so that's an upper bound for the size of the smallest Ilari-program.
07:18:09 <fizzie> (See, I made up a name for it.)
07:19:40 <Ilari> +++[....-] is first of those two in ASCII order.
07:21:32 <Ilari> And the busy-beaver like function for BF is of course how many times program of n bytes can invoke . and still halt. Obiviously, its strictly increasing function.
07:21:36 <fizzie> - comes before . so +++[-....] would be before that.
07:22:08 <quantumEd> maybe you can equate [-....] and [....-]
07:23:07 <Ilari> (and those programs can't contain ',')
07:25:46 <quantumEd> is this a good strategy: enum and run every brainfuck program of the set length -- with a timeout
07:26:01 <quantumEd> the ones that timed out you keep them in a list to inspect by hand (bcaesue they might not terminate)
07:26:39 <quantumEd> what's the first brainfuck program that generates some output that is just too huge to deal with?
07:26:59 <quantumEd> I guess nobody has found it yet....
07:32:59 <oklofok> i just know people have tried this for tm's, http://www.answers.com/busy%20beaver#current_6-state.2C_2-symbol_best_contender
07:35:29 <quantumEd> well finding the minimum vavlue for it is hard but its still silly
07:41:58 <oklofok> seems a bit silly i suppose. i wonder what their methods are
07:44:31 <oklofok> oh lower bound functions, for some reason you just meant lower bounds for specific values
07:44:55 <quantumEd> but any computable function is a lower bound
07:47:02 <Ilari> I think that 100 byte BF program, lower bound for number of times it can invoke . and still halt is 11 757 312. For 1 000 byte program, same costructs give 382 748 214 098 589 572 136 663 385 960 069 669 070 838 715 433 037 453 066 072 476 832...
07:47:42 <Ilari> Pick a construction and calculate from that.
07:50:24 <ais523> Ilari: ah, you've been calculating busy beaver for BF?
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07:55:30 <fizzie> Ilari: And what was the construction for those numbers?
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07:59:16 <MizardX> Some structure the multiplies the number of . by 6 for each level... and +7 somewhere.
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08:04:23 <Ilari> Okay, looks like one can do much better. 100 byte program giving 2^2^2097152 .'s
08:09:50 <Ilari> Oops. It doesn't quite work out. Attempting to fix it yields only 2^2^262144...
08:11:05 <ais523> what's the maximum Turing Machine complexity for which the busy beaver number is known exactly?
08:11:27 <ais523> in theory, if we keep brute-forcing up through the complexities
08:11:37 <ais523> we'll eventually find out what the simplest mathematical question we don't know the answer to is
08:13:30 <oklofok> ais523: it's in my link, was it size 4
08:13:49 <Ilari> Hmm... anybody want to figure out wheither this halts and if it does, how many times it outputs stuff: ++++++[>++++++<-]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>[.-]
08:14:03 <oklofok> for one tape symbol, and 4 states that is
08:14:22 <ais523> oklofok: that's just a copy of the Wikipedia article in a worse interface...
08:14:49 <oklofok> yes, i'm not sure why that's relevant
08:15:08 <oklofok> i would use wikipedia, but i also check words, and answers has a simpler url.
08:15:53 <Ilari> Unless it got screwed up somehow: 2^2^68719476736...
08:16:31 <ais523> oklofok: does your web browser not have a search box in the top-right corner that can be set to Wikipedia?
08:17:22 <oklofok> ais523: yes, it's set to google atm.
08:17:38 <ais523> I change the setting according to what I'm looking for
08:17:41 <ais523> mine even has an Esolang setting
08:18:05 <ais523> (although, for some reason, to look up words I use Wikipedia but with a wikt: prefix)
08:19:36 <oklofok> Ilari: do you like big things? regexes and now bb...
08:20:58 <Ilari> There has to be even more powerful ways to pump up the numbers than exponential pumping. Perhaps not in 100-byte programs but for larger ones...
08:21:27 <quantumEd> there's is always a more complicated way
08:21:48 <oklofok> Ilari: i'm fairly sure there are better ways in <100 programs...
08:22:24 <oklofok> i mean it's not *that much* less powerful than tm's
08:23:48 <ais523> it's fairly obvious how to compile BF to a TM
08:24:04 <ais523> it's pretty much just a TM with a few extra restrictions
08:24:22 <oklofok> we're interested in the other way
08:29:05 <fizzie> fungot: You have a brainfuck interpreter, what do you think about that program Ilari asked about?
08:29:06 <fungot> fizzie: i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute ( base 8 fnord should a thread be given a lot of
08:29:20 <ais523> because not all possible TMs are the direct translation of some BF program
08:29:41 <ais523> ah, that fungot comment would have been so perfect if it stopped before the paren
08:29:42 <fungot> ais523: http://sourceforge.net/ donate/ fnord to http://en.wikibooks.org/ wiki/ 2006_esolang_contestcommittee.
08:31:02 <ais523> beh, http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/2006_esolang_contest_committee is blank
08:31:15 <ais523> no entries in the deletion log, either
08:31:51 <fizzie> I should count the likelihood of fungot mentioning brainfuck to see how much of a coincidence that was; as far as I know, it still doesn't use the "input" sentence at all when constructing the reply.
08:31:51 <fungot> fizzie: i'll bet this would be good for anything but a k-like combinator ( fnord) fnord
08:32:03 <oklofok> wait what that was accidental??
08:32:09 <oklofok> i though fizzie wrote that answer :D
08:32:28 <oklofok> "i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute" <<< this is a perfect answer :|
08:32:43 <oklofok> technically not true, but clearly a strong AI
08:32:59 <ais523> `qdb <fungot> fizzie: i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute
08:33:00 <fungot> ais523: hey man that's python or something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
08:33:11 <ais523> um, what's HackEgo's qdb syntax again?
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08:52:04 <AnMaster> `Fuco`, hm about that link you posted before
08:52:34 <AnMaster> (compare with nick list maybe?)
08:53:26 <AnMaster> `Fuco`, anyway, you say in the comment at the start that rcfunge is broken? Yet iirc it passes those parts in mycology. So care to say how exactly those instructions are broken
08:54:02 <AnMaster> `Fuco`, this interests me greatly since I'm the developer of one of the other befunge-98 interpreters (cfunge).
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08:54:25 <AnMaster> I suspect Deewiant will be interested too, since he wrote the befunge-98 testsuite mycology
08:55:06 <fizzie> You said that wrong; it is "this is relevant to my interests", not "this interests me".
08:56:00 <AnMaster> oh it seems to be "reflect on EOF/error"
08:56:01 <fizzie> Yes; I'm referring to http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Relevant of course. (Unless you were one of the people avoiding links to that site.)
08:56:16 <AnMaster> heck, it even does it for stdout
08:56:44 <fizzie> It's not really "of course", but whatever.
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08:58:19 <AnMaster> `Fuco`, considering http://fi.muni.cz/~xgoljer/rcfunge-fix.txt I'm confident cfunge will work for you
08:59:17 <AnMaster> `Fuco`, be aware of that cfunge requires a *nix system. It won't work on Windows except under cygwin, and even under cygwin it requires quite a bit of work to make it work
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09:03:16 <AnMaster> Gregor, where is egobot?........................................................
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09:05:35 <AnMaster> `Fuco`, just tested it, it works under cfunge
09:05:46 <AnMaster> a bit irritating there is no newline after End
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09:50:40 <AnMaster> ais523, you said mathematica was slow, but fast at some specific things iirc?
09:52:23 <AnMaster> ais523, managing NextPrime[800!] in less than a minute doesn't seem too slow to me for example
09:52:46 <ais523> AnMaster: slow on stuff that isn't a simple combination of primitives
09:52:54 <ais523> NextPrime[800!] is a simple combination of primitives
09:53:13 <ais523> so any time you have to write a loop by hand, for instance (even using map or fold)
09:53:21 <ais523> (or whatever they're called in Mathematica)
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10:00:23 <fizzie> Map is called Map -- "Map[f, expr] or f/@expr applies f to each element on the first level in expr" -- and fold is called Fold -- "Fold[f, x, list] gives the last element of FoldList[f, x, list]. FoldList[f, x, {a, b, ...}] gives {x, f[x, a], f[f[x, a], b], ...}."
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10:06:50 <AnMaster> huh I can't get parallel stuff in mathematica to work
10:06:55 <AnMaster> it seems to block the main thread
10:07:13 <AnMaster> so I can't evaluate something in one thread then evaluate other stuff elsewhere
10:14:06 <AnMaster> ais523, how much of mathematica is written in mathematica?
10:14:20 <AnMaster> considering what you said about speed I guess "almost none"?
10:14:38 <ais523> it's either wrappers or written in C, I think (although I don't know for certain as I haven't seen the code)
10:15:04 <AnMaster> yet the docs claim that mathematica is so fast and great and everything
10:15:47 <Deewiant> http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/tutorial/TheSoftwareEngineeringOfMathematica.html
10:17:46 <ais523> basically, they claim it's fast because things like NextPrime have been so carefully optimised by hand
10:17:54 <ais523> and written in a non-Mathematica language
10:18:08 <ais523> they didn't really realise that if it were truly fast, they wouldn't /have/ to do that
10:19:46 <AnMaster> ais523, so they are saying that C is fast basically
10:20:04 <ais523> well, they're saying their algos are fast too
10:20:07 <ais523> which is interesting, and important
10:20:16 <ais523> this is why Mathematica is so fast for doing combinations of primitive
10:20:22 <ais523> because the primitives are implemented very well
10:20:43 <ais523> but it basically has similar speed properties to Thutu once you try to do something more complicated
10:20:49 <ais523> because it's much the same language, just with a worse syntax
10:21:05 <AnMaster> ais523, well, in theory you could optimise better by taking advantage of exactly how the primitive is used
10:21:17 <ais523> yes but AFAICT it doesn't
10:21:51 <AnMaster> like if the domain isn't all integers, but only all odd integers, you can skip checking in prime checks if a number is a multiple of 2
10:22:13 <AnMaster> but I suspect there are cases which saves a whole lot in theory
10:22:32 * ais523 vaguely wonders how to ask Mathematica for a list of all even primes
10:22:37 <AnMaster> ais523, Thutu is really slow isn't it?
10:22:42 <ais523> without optimising by hand and just writing [2]
10:22:53 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, because it has to keep rescanning the string to find out what to do
10:23:00 <ais523> it's O(n) slower than other langs, typically
10:23:12 <ais523> imagine a processor that kept losing the IP and having to scan the entire program to find where it was, it's like that
10:23:17 <AnMaster> ais523, heh. Why not ask it to find an instance that disproves the Riemann conjecture?
10:23:35 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean it doesn't use any AST?
10:23:36 <ais523> AnMaster: because the first should be relatively easily expressible in a programming language, but I'm not sure it is
10:23:46 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I invented a feather-like language
10:23:47 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I don't mean that
10:23:58 <ais523> but it operates on pattern matching behind the scenes
10:24:12 <lament> a feather-like tarpit?
10:24:37 <ais523> AnMaster: go on, although I doubt feather-like is very easy to achieve at all without being utterly different
10:24:53 <AnMaster> ais523, think a mathematica notebook, but every change of a definition of a function or variable below will update all prior usages of it. Of course this becomes interesting if you use it in a condition such that you only redefine it if it has it's original definition
10:25:15 <AnMaster> in which case it would never have been redefined
10:25:15 <ais523> Mathematica actually /has/ that, to some extent
10:25:22 <ais523> you put Interactive[] around the definition, or something like that
10:25:30 <ais523> but then you have to edit actual uses of the number
10:25:39 <ais523> I don't think you can edit processed results to get a goal-seek
10:25:48 * ais523 was forgetting Mathematica syntax...
10:26:19 <AnMaster> (here I don't know mathematica syntax:)
10:26:33 <ais523> probably x:=2, but I'm not sure either
10:26:38 <ais523> and that would be if[x==2,x=4]
10:26:40 <AnMaster> very similar to the grand father paradox
10:26:54 <ais523> um, it is =, not :=, I think now
10:26:57 <ais523> although I'm vaguely confused
10:27:03 <ais523> you're not really meant to use variables in Mathematica
10:27:44 <ais523> much the same way as you're not really meant to use loops in J
10:27:52 <AnMaster> ais523, it claims to be state of the art at procedural programming. As well as offering unique enhanced advantages for functional programming.
10:27:54 <ais523> although presumably they're expressable somehow (maybe a convoluted waY)
10:28:03 * ais523 hit caps lock by mistake
10:28:17 <ais523> AnMaster: the claims have been Wolframised
10:28:19 <AnMaster> ais523, strange effect for Ctrl-Y
10:28:27 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah. Actually it claims:
10:28:38 <ais523> was trying to write y shift-0
10:28:46 <ais523> and hit capslock-y shift-0 because capslock is next to shift
10:28:55 <AnMaster> "Long viewed as an important theoretical idea, functional programming finally became truly convenient and practical with the introduction of Mathematica's symbolic language."
10:28:58 <ais523> and as I typed that y with my right hand, the left hand was already going to shift at the time
10:29:02 <Deewiant> Not a-capslock because a is next to capslock?
10:29:11 <ais523> Deewiant: I don't think so
10:29:36 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think Mathematica really 'gets' functional programming
10:29:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did you see that about bugs found in rc/funge above? Some stuff mycology didn't test.
10:29:49 <ais523> I've seen an implementation of SKI in Mathematica, but it didn't define it as functions but as rewriting
10:29:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, See what `Fuco` said in the logs
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10:30:26 <Deewiant> mycouser tests nothing explicitly
10:30:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, does ccbi handle it?
10:30:56 <Deewiant> If you want to see whether it handles EOF correctly, redirect /dev/null to the stdin of your interpreter.
10:31:02 <AnMaster> I checked that cfunge handles what he described correctly
10:31:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that's quite important too you know
10:31:21 <Deewiant> Probably not, but I'm not sure
10:32:22 * AnMaster wonders what outputting to /dev/zero does
10:32:35 <ais523> well, just ignores the output
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10:32:58 <ais523> reading from /dev/null gives EOF, doesn't it?
10:32:59 <AnMaster> ais523, unless /dev/null is optimised for faster ignoring of output?
10:33:08 <ais523> AnMaster: that makes no sense, surely?
10:33:15 <Deewiant> I wonder how one can optimize ignorance
10:33:31 <AnMaster> ais523, well it could. It could be done so that the data is not even sent to the kernel at all
10:33:38 <AnMaster> would require standard library support
10:33:57 <ais523> wouldn't that slow down all output that /wasn't/ ignored?
10:34:29 <AnMaster> ais523, also not if you use quajets (or whatever the term was)
10:35:01 <`Fuco`> AnMaster: hey, thanks for your comments, I've just came back from school
10:35:38 <`Fuco`> Yea the problem was on "reflect on failure" on I/O operations, rcfunge was unable to determine EOF
10:35:53 <Deewiant> In general, RC/Funge is not very high quality. I don't recommend it.
10:36:12 <AnMaster> `Fuco`, Deewiant wrote ccbi and mycology, I wrote cfunge.
10:36:22 <`Fuco`> I've just found out funge this sunday so I've grabbed the first one ;)
10:37:37 <ais523> `Fuco`: Deewiant's a world expert on Funge interpreter correctness testing
10:37:45 <`Fuco`> I've revised some of my code at the boring lecture, so I'm gonna update it and test on something else ;0
10:37:56 <ais523> ccbi and cfunge are likely the best interps to use, as a result of it
10:38:05 <AnMaster> ais523, http://lwn.net/Articles/270081/
10:38:09 <ais523> Deewiant: how's Language::Befunge getting on, by the way?
10:38:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I bet it could be efficient with THAT
10:38:45 <AnMaster> ais523, I would like to point out that efunge is rather good too
10:38:48 <Deewiant> ais523: I guess it does a good job at validity but is still slow as hell?
10:39:01 <ais523> AnMaster: heh, that's how everything works in Underload/Unlambda
10:39:08 <ais523> Deewiant: that's my guess too, I just wanted it confirmed
10:39:51 <Deewiant> I haven't been benchmarking lately (or funging at all really) but I doubt it's got enough speed to be usable for complex programs
10:39:57 <ais523> anyway, that article's just inspired a crazy idea in me
10:40:15 <ais523> if you try to write to /dev/null, the code calling it gets rewritten to not output at all
10:40:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I read the thesis in question, very interesting.
10:40:56 <AnMaster> ais523, and I bet that was was synthesis would have done
10:41:11 <AnMaster> except it wouldn't have called it that
10:42:19 <AnMaster> ais523 from the discussion section:
10:42:22 <AnMaster> Objection 1: "How much of the performance improvement is due to my ideas, and how much is due to writing in assembler, and tuning the hell out of the thing?"
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10:48:53 <AnMaster> ais523, what was the last you saw?
10:49:37 <ais523> [Tuesday 08 December 2009] [04:30:51 |pm] <HackEgo>| No output.
10:49:38 <ais523> [Tuesday 08 December 2009] [04:31:02 |pm] <ais523>| um, what's HackEgo's qdb syntax again?
10:49:47 <ais523> I can't remember what I saw on the other one
10:50:00 <AnMaster> <ais523> if you try to write to /dev/null, the code calling it gets rewritten to not output at all
10:50:00 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, I read the thesis in question, very interesting.
10:50:00 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, and I bet that was was synthesis would have done
10:50:00 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> except it wouldn't have called it that
10:50:00 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523 from the discussion section:
10:50:01 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Objection 1: "How much of the performance improvement is due to my ideas, and how much is due to writing in assembler, and tuning the hell out of the thing?"
10:50:18 <ais523> I saw everything up to the quit on the other connection
10:50:24 <ais523> as it was a quit by hand, not a lagquit
10:51:58 <ais523> also, is there something wrong with sending myself a zipped tgz that itself contains other zips and tgzs?
10:52:38 <ais523> basically, there was a directory tree full of zipfiles that I needed to send to another computer
10:52:47 <AnMaster> ais523, well sure, so tar them up
10:52:49 <ais523> so I tarred the directory tree
10:52:52 <AnMaster> or zip them with no compression
10:52:54 <ais523> and put z in the tar command because why not
10:52:59 <ais523> also, not all the files in it were compressed
10:53:07 <AnMaster> ais523, well why did you put it in a .zip afterwards?
10:53:15 <ais523> then, because the data was private, I put it in a passworded zip
10:53:22 <ais523> to prevent it getting snooped on over the email
10:53:36 <ais523> (I'm not that careful with my own stuff normally, but for other people's sensitive data, I'm not sending it over email unencrypted)
10:53:47 <AnMaster> ais523, because zip encryption is easy to break iirc
10:54:02 <AnMaster> we are talking a lot less time than gpg here unless I misremember
10:54:09 <ais523> I picked a very long password so as to make life harder when breaking it
10:54:27 <ais523> although, none of this is meant to stand up to a concerted attack, someone with the resources to do that could just hack the server here, or my login on it
10:54:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well iirc it used to use a easy to break encryption algorightm
10:54:54 <AnMaster> though google suggests winzip uses 128-bit AES at least
10:55:02 <AnMaster> can't find anything about zip standard
10:55:57 <AnMaster> and 7zip offers either the old easy to break one and 256-bit AES
10:56:37 <ais523> I used the command-line "zip" on Fedora
10:56:42 <AnMaster> # cryptsetup status /dev/mapper/root
10:56:42 <AnMaster> /dev/mapper//dev/mapper/root is active:
10:56:53 <ais523> (grr, I get Red Hat derivatives confused mentally...)
10:57:02 <ais523> no idea what version it is
10:57:33 <AnMaster> -e Encrypt the contents of the zip archive using a password which is entered on the terminal in response to a prompt (this will not be echoed;
10:57:33 <AnMaster> if standard error is not a tty, zip will exit with an error). The password prompt is repeated to save the user from typing errors. Note
10:57:33 <AnMaster> that this encrypts with standard pkzip encryption which is considered weak.
10:57:56 <AnMaster> ais523, congrats, if anyone wanted to read that they could easily have done
10:58:14 <AnMaster> would have been way more secure
10:58:22 <ais523> AnMaster: to a computer that wasn't network-connected at the time?
10:58:33 <AnMaster> ais523, fair enough, still gpg is required
10:58:36 <ais523> that has port 22 firewalled, and isn't running sshd as it is?
10:58:44 <ais523> wait, it is running sshd
10:58:48 <ais523> but it has port 22 firewalled anyway
10:59:05 <ais523> gpg wouldn't really work without a public key to encrypt with
10:59:06 <AnMaster> ais523, because the pkzip style encryption is so easy to break it takes seconds iirc
10:59:16 <AnMaster> ais523, use your own public key duh?
10:59:24 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know it off by heart
10:59:39 <AnMaster> http://lwn.net/Articles/270081/
10:59:39 <ais523> anyway, I think it's pretty unlikely anyone was intercepting the email in transit anyway
10:59:46 <AnMaster> -c, --symmetric encryption only with symmetric cipher
11:00:27 <AnMaster> ais523, just pointing out your protection wasn't really helpful at all
11:02:41 <ais523> anyway, the fsck bug seems to have fixed itself
11:02:49 <ais523> at least, my computer fscked itself just fine an hour or so ago
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11:10:25 <AnMaster> ais523, have you ever run into issues with _FILE_OFFSET_BITS?
11:10:32 <AnMaster> since I know you are still on 32-bit
11:11:51 <AnMaster> ais523, ah I guess you seldom use files larger than 2 GB?
11:12:13 <ais523> the only time I'd use a file that big would be a full backup of everything
11:12:23 <ais523> and even then, I'm not sure if it would be that large
11:12:26 <AnMaster> well, I just read about the issues it caused, and I got a feeling that can best be described as nostalgia
11:12:42 <AnMaster> I haven't used 32-bit for ages
11:14:11 <ais523> hmm, seems that my last nonincremental backup was february 2008, and it's less than 1 GB
11:14:25 <ais523> probably a symptom of me growing up with floppy disks
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11:17:17 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah I have over 200 GB in my last non-incremental backup
11:18:03 <ais523> how do you store that much? it wouldn't even fit on a USB stick
11:18:20 <ais523> and you'd need too many CDs to burn it on to be practical
11:18:45 <AnMaster> ais523, currently on external disk
11:19:51 <AnMaster> ais523, oh btw that is just the desktop, the laptop adds another 70 GB or so by now
11:20:08 <ais523> I tend to not back up generated files unless they're small
11:20:28 <AnMaster> ais523, well indeed. I don't backup svn checkouts and such
11:20:30 <ais523> e.g. I back up the .rg (original) and .mid (small) versions of my music
11:20:36 <ais523> but not the .ogg versions
11:20:39 <AnMaster> ais523, with that it would easily add another 100 GB
11:20:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I have no time to sort through that sort of stuff
11:32:31 <AnMaster> Fuco, so which did you choose? cfunge or ccbi?
11:33:06 <AnMaster> <`Fuco`> I've just found out funge this sunday so I've grabbed the first one ;) <-- a bit hard to believe considering that program. You must have spent the entire time on befunge since then
11:33:53 <Fuco> It's not that hard when you think about how it works
11:34:17 <Fuco> it's basically pushdown automata with a lot of convenient methods (like variables etc)
11:34:19 <AnMaster> there are some non-idiomatic parts in there indeed
11:34:29 <AnMaster> first: befunge98 is not .txt but .b98
11:34:45 <Fuco> but then some browsers won't open it ;)
11:35:23 <AnMaster> Fuco, btw you are aware of the "print gnirts" idiom: >:#,_ right?
11:35:55 <AnMaster> just you never used it as far as I could find with a quick grep
11:36:00 <fungot> quantumEd: it turns out he did send something, a classical fnord photo is copyrighted by the photographer and so on
11:36:12 <Fuco> nope as I said I've only found it sunday so ;)
11:36:20 <AnMaster> fungot, oh btw fungot is written in befunge 98
11:36:21 <fungot> AnMaster: although i'm not quite sure on how to blend them fnord, they would have
11:36:23 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
11:37:03 <AnMaster> Fuco, well >:#,_ is a useful idiom to know
11:37:35 <Deewiant> _,#! #:< in the other direction
11:37:56 <AnMaster> (and there are vertical versions of course)
11:38:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is there any version based on x?
11:38:14 <Deewiant> Or >:#,_# of course, although it won't deal correctly with a null string
11:38:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how would that ever exit?
11:38:50 <Fuco> why's there the :
11:38:59 <AnMaster> Fuco, duplicate item on top of stack
11:39:12 <Deewiant> >:#,_v# is of course the correct-with-null version
11:39:17 <AnMaster> Fuco, so if we decide to print it we still need it around
11:39:23 <Fuco> So it will print null terminated string
11:39:39 <AnMaster> Fuco, which is what a 0"gnirts" is
11:39:44 <AnMaster> think it is mentioned in the spec
11:39:45 <Deewiant> Except I managed to backspace over the : at the end but anyway
11:40:00 <AnMaster> Fuco, spec is at http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html
11:40:16 <Fuco> OH i see, so i dont have to use number k,
11:40:43 <AnMaster> Fuco, only assuming you can trust there to be no zero bytes in that string
11:41:04 <AnMaster> plus k has it's own host of issues
11:41:14 <Deewiant> If you tag your strings with the length then 1-k, works
11:41:30 <Deewiant> Except for strings of length 1
11:41:44 <Fuco> I'm sure I'd figure that out in some time ;D
11:42:09 <AnMaster> Fuco, also I believe ccbi still doesn't handle nested k in a sensible way
11:42:23 <AnMaster> cfunge at least tries to handle it in some sort of not totally confused way
11:42:24 <Deewiant> Your definition of sensible might be different from mine :-P
11:42:38 <Deewiant> And I guess it was, last time we discussed it
11:42:46 <AnMaster> nested k is by definition not sensible
11:42:53 <Fuco> btw that bot is WTF, it will take some time just to read it
11:43:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, heck I don't even remember what exactly cfunge does XD
11:43:17 <AnMaster> Fuco, I don't think I ever read the whole thing
11:43:32 <AnMaster> Fuco, oh and fizzie in here wrote it
11:43:50 <AnMaster> Fuco, there are some docs at the end
11:43:59 <AnMaster> mostly about how space is used
11:44:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, didn't you have an annotated version
11:44:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, some page where you displayed info on hover?
11:44:33 <AnMaster> or do I completely misremember?
11:45:46 <Fuco> It's crazy that people actually write socket libraries for stuff like this
11:46:02 <AnMaster> Fuco, oh? well there is a fingerprint for it
11:46:09 <Deewiant> There's not much to write, the only socket fingerprint is pretty much a C binding
11:46:12 <AnMaster> cfunge, ccbi and rcfunge at least implement it
11:46:24 <AnMaster> and yeah, it is a bit of C binding
11:47:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "a bit" seems to equal "around 340 lines"
11:47:58 <AnMaster> of course quite a bit of that is metadata
11:48:32 <AnMaster> (as in, generated code that loads the fingerprint, lines like: int foo; or such)
11:48:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you have the advantage of not having to care as much about memory management
11:48:55 <AnMaster> thanks to using a higher level language
11:49:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and you don't have 10 lines of includes at the top
11:50:05 <Deewiant> You're right: it has three imports, one of which is a workaround for a bug
12:02:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, I had one.
12:02:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: But it was rather incomplete.
12:03:21 <fizzie> I'm sure it's still somewhere.
12:03:39 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html
12:03:39 <fungot> fizzie: " echo stop killing me
12:03:52 <fizzie> fungot: I'm not killing you.
12:03:52 <fungot> fizzie: but some of their income from copies of gnu software.
12:04:18 <fizzie> The highlights are in the wrong place in that file, in fact.
12:04:36 <fizzie> Because I had a separate highlight description file, and raw source code file, and apparently those have gotten out of sync.
12:05:00 <fizzie> I think it's because I've added a few lines of initialization in there.
12:05:27 <fizzie> And the highlighting stops pretty early on in the file.
12:05:38 <fizzie> Let's see, the colours had some sort of meaning too.
12:06:06 * AnMaster notes it looks all like light blue on his laptop screen unless he look at it from an extreme angle
12:06:25 <fizzie> Green blocks are the big high-level descriptions, red ones are error conditions/messages, blue and yellow... uh, mean something else. As does grey.
12:06:50 <fizzie> Oh, all grey ones are part of a single block called "Code-flow paths..."
12:07:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, why is there a vertical row of dots there
12:07:46 <fizzie> It's a sort of highlight that's in the original source file.
12:07:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, near the end of the annotated area
12:07:57 <fizzie> The two columns right of it are reserved for code-flow.
12:08:03 <fizzie> It's just a marker that you're not supposed to write past it.
12:08:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, shouldn't it go all the way up?
12:08:19 <AnMaster> ais523, also why not update it?
12:08:24 <fizzie> Sure, in theory, but I think I got bored.
12:09:03 <fizzie> The highlights are generated from the http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot-hl.txt file automatically with some javascript.
12:09:03 <fungot> fizzie: so that's a scheme48 bug? :) htmlprag?
12:09:05 <ais523> is your tab-complete set to me by default?
12:09:12 <ais523> I'm the first here in alphabetical order, so it's plausible
12:09:22 <AnMaster> ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing
12:09:26 <ais523> (also, not particularly close in QWERTY; do you use a substantially different layout?)
12:09:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well no, tab alone just lists the names
12:10:00 <AnMaster> ais523, closer than a and o are?
12:10:51 <ais523> yes, it is closer than a and o are
12:10:54 <ais523> but that's still not close
12:11:29 <ais523> too far to typo, but close enough that it's not that much of a stretch for the finger
12:11:33 <ais523> still a bit annoying, though
12:11:43 <ais523> like trying to press ' when your right hand's on hjkl for a vi-style control system
12:12:16 <ais523> also, to do with the way hands work, g is effectively closer to j than a is to d or l is to '
12:12:21 <ais523> even though it's the same physical distance
12:12:30 <ais523> (and 4 is pretty close to d)
12:12:52 <AnMaster> ais523, you forgot that I was looking at a different screen when typing
12:13:17 <AnMaster> I don't tyoe quite correct when doing so, at least if I press enter before piof reading (like here)
12:13:30 <AnMaster> well, I didn't do too bad it seems
12:13:33 <ais523> ah, I only use one screen
12:13:47 <ais523> I think some people are more productive with multiple screens as it helps stop them getting distracted
12:13:51 <AnMaster> ais523, <AnMaster> ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing
12:13:52 <ais523> and I'm more productive with one screen for the same reason
12:14:05 <ais523> in fact I even commented against it
12:14:38 <AnMaster> ais523, no that was the second time I mentioned it
12:14:52 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing != <AnMaster> ais523, you forgot that I was looking at a different screen when typing
12:15:19 <ais523> (ehird logread: I've started using xmonad again for some things; once I found out it supported multiple desktops, it fits my workflow much better, as I can ensure there's exactly two windows on a desktop when I want to tile two)
12:15:27 <AnMaster> ais523, and not just multiple screens, in fact they are two computers that are connected using synergy
12:15:39 <AnMaster> in fact I was reading something on the other one while typing
12:16:14 <AnMaster> ais523, you use virtual desktops?
12:16:35 <ais523> although, only one at the moment
12:16:44 <ais523> two is common when I'm working on a programming project (one for it, one for everything else)
12:16:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I always get annoyed when I have to switch between them
12:16:59 <ais523> in xmonad, I more commonly use 6 or 7 or so because I don't have a taskbar
12:17:08 <AnMaster> ais523, for programming I just make sure to use a large enough monitor
12:17:10 <ais523> so it's a different style of working
12:17:31 <AnMaster> btw I have considered getting another monitor
12:17:41 <AnMaster> thus having a dual monitor setup + the laptop
12:17:54 <ais523> why is switching desktops hard?
12:18:06 <ais523> it's actually easier to press than alt-tab
12:18:34 <ais523> (and control-shift-alt-arrow moves the current window with you, although that's a bit harder to press than alt-tab)
12:18:34 <Deewiant> Alt-tab requires two fingers from one hand
12:18:50 <ais523> and it's a stretch for the fourth
12:18:58 <ais523> AnMaster: which fingers do you use?
12:19:08 <ais523> how do you avoid spraining your wrist
12:19:19 <Deewiant> Control-alt-arrow requires three fingers, and either from two hands or with a very inconvenient single hand
12:19:25 <ais523> also, moving your index finger from f to tab is a very long way
12:19:26 <AnMaster> ais523, well if I don't want to move sideways I just use first and forth
12:19:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I move all over the place for emacs anyway
12:19:53 <ais523> Deewiant: two hands, but I don't have to move them very far
12:20:02 <ais523> alt-tab isn't that inconvenient
12:20:22 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I don't actually use first and second
12:20:39 <AnMaster> first and third or first and fourth
12:20:40 <Deewiant> Alt-tab doesn't necessarily require any hand movement at all
12:20:53 <Deewiant> Arrow keys are inconvenient unless you have a hand there already
12:20:56 <AnMaster> ais523, as for far stretch, yes I need to curl up the finger a bit to not overshoot
12:20:57 <ais523> Deewiant: agreed, but it does require a lot of finger movement
12:21:11 <ais523> and I'm on a laptop, so the arrow keys are below return
12:21:11 <AnMaster> ais523, so no not a far stretch, rather I would like it further away
12:21:17 <ais523> rather than to the right and below
12:21:21 <ais523> that probably makes a big difference
12:21:29 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I'm on a full sized keyboard
12:21:31 <Deewiant> I often press alt-tab using my thumb and pinkie
12:21:50 * AnMaster should take a photo of his hand on his keyboard
12:21:58 <AnMaster> if I can find the camera without too much searching
12:22:05 <Deewiant> Of course, a laptop keyboard makes things easier
12:22:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed. just checked on my thinkpad
12:22:46 <AnMaster> but no one uses a laptop keyboard if he/she can avoid it
12:23:05 <ais523> because I use laptops so much, I'm used to this one
12:23:10 <ais523> desktop keyboards tend to be a bit large for me now
12:24:16 <AnMaster> ais523, heh. I find even a full sized keyboard cramped
12:41:20 <ais523> about 6 feet; 1 foot is 12 inches, 1 metre is 39 inches, so that translates to about 1.85 metres
12:41:28 <ais523> that's only approximate, though, I haven't measured my height in a while
12:41:54 <AnMaster> yet you said Alt-tab was a far stretch
12:42:05 <ais523> from where my fingers normally are
12:42:09 <AnMaster> your hands must be fairly small compared to the rest of your body
12:42:15 <ais523> it isn't that far in an absolute manner
12:42:22 <ais523> in fact, I compress my hand to do the reaching
12:42:28 <AnMaster> ais523, well what about the fingers 1 and 5?
12:42:31 <ais523> it's just a lot of movement from the normal locations of my hands
12:42:35 <ais523> that would be even more
12:42:39 <ais523> my little finger's normally over shift
12:42:47 <AnMaster> which is what I actually use when I'm not thinking about it (just noticed)
12:43:05 <ais523> and the position of my hand is such that I can move it down to control without moving my hand
12:43:08 <ais523> but not up to caps lock
12:43:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I would hate having my little finger curled up like that
12:43:32 <ais523> which explains why I can't reach tab with it at all without moving my hand
12:43:35 <AnMaster> how do you reach the top rows easily
12:43:42 <ais523> middle finger reaches them fine
12:43:54 <ais523> although I have to stretch for escape or the F-keys, I hardly use them
12:43:58 <AnMaster> ais523, what about typing q? or 1?
12:43:59 <ais523> (Emacs user, not vi user...)
12:44:07 <AnMaster> ais523, everyone has to stretch for f-keys
12:44:11 <ais523> q is where my fourth finger naturally reaches
12:44:19 <ais523> 1 I press by moving my third finger to the left, it's longer
12:44:25 <ais523> AnMaster: no space on this keyboard between F1 and 1
12:44:46 <AnMaster> ais523, what about reaching esc? On my laptop it is above F1
12:44:53 <ais523> it's to the left of F1 here, above `
12:45:08 <ais523> (and ` is a massive stretch with the third finger for me; for ESC I have to move my hand)
12:45:15 <ais523> note that these are my normal typing hand positions
12:45:21 <ais523> for, say, playing roguelikes, they'd be different
12:45:31 <AnMaster> ais523, on my desktop F10 is above `, and on my laptop the space between F12 and Delete (+ part of Delete) is above `
12:45:37 <ais523> (the left hand would be higher so it could hit control /and/ escape a lot; the right hand would be over hjkl
12:45:50 <ais523> AnMaster: ` is at the other end of your keyboard, then
12:46:30 <AnMaster> ais523, 78990+ "dead key for é" "backspace
12:46:50 <AnMaster> and the dead key for e when shifted turns into dead key for è and `
12:47:01 <ais523> `1234567890-= backspace
12:47:23 <ais523> to type international characters I use alt-gr plus punctuation
12:47:41 <ais523> e.g. alt-gr-; is dead key for acute
12:48:34 <ais523> shifted: ¬!"£$%^&*()_+
12:48:57 <AnMaster> when alt-gr+shift: ¾¹²³¼¢⅝÷«»°¿¬
12:49:14 <ais523> |¹²³€½¾{[]}\ (dead key for cedilla) (alt-gr-backspace)
12:49:22 <ais523> altgr-shift does the same as shift for me
12:49:48 <AnMaster> ais523, also alt-gr backspace is silly
12:50:00 <AnMaster> due to it not being of interest
12:50:21 <ais523> on Windows, it'd be mapped to control-alt-backspace and kill your X server
12:50:26 <AnMaster> ais523, it has no special meaning?
12:50:32 <ais523> because Windows maps altgr to control-alt for some utterly unknown reason
12:50:46 <ais523> OTOH, on Windows you normally don't have an X server running
12:50:50 <AnMaster> ais523, no it doesn't, because then stuff like @ wouldn't work
12:51:02 <AnMaster> or are you saying that Ctrl-Alt-2 on windows is @?
12:51:04 <ais523> can you do it with control-alt instead?
12:51:23 <ais523> certainly, control-alt-4 is €, control-alt-e is é
12:51:27 <AnMaster> ais523, I never tried and I don't have windows handy atm
12:51:32 <ais523> but I can't be bothered booting the Windows system here to test
12:51:41 <ais523> (that's on a UK keyboard)
12:52:30 <AnMaster> ais523, btw @, £ and $ are marked on the keyboard
12:52:32 <ais523> and ¢ is "cent", which is 1/100 of a dollar
12:52:40 <ais523> in the US, and several other countries which have currencies called dollars
12:53:05 <ais523> also, it's the mingle operator in Princeton syntax for INTERCAL
12:53:11 <ais523> which if you're not American, is possibly more important
12:53:43 <ais523> ¢ being more important as an INTERCAL operator than as a currency
12:54:34 <AnMaster> ouchm I think I have an electric chair. Static such. gave a small spark when touching a metal part
12:54:57 <AnMaster> ais523, same importance for me
12:55:14 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not your chair, it's you
12:55:19 <ais523> you became statically charged
12:55:26 <ais523> and the shock when you touched metal was you discharging all at once
12:55:40 <ais523> normally you become charged due to walking around a lot on certain sorts of carpet
12:55:47 <ais523> or in buildings with a certain architecture
12:56:03 <ais523> and you don't notice on rainy days because you discharge slowly through humidity in the air
12:57:30 <AnMaster> ais523, I can reproduce the effect with a bit of metal plus some isolation to hold it in after rolling the chair around on the floor a bit
12:57:43 <AnMaster> the bit of metal was placed on the wooden desk while doing this
12:57:56 <ais523> ah, it's your chair + the carpet that's doing it, then?
12:58:06 <AnMaster> ais523, no carpet. plastic flooring
12:58:14 <ais523> ooh, plastic's known to cause the problem
12:58:30 <ais523> btw, you should discharge yourself before working on electronics (e.g. the inside of computers)
12:58:30 <AnMaster> ais523, wait no, it is actually linoleum in this room
12:58:41 <AnMaster> ais523, I use a static wrist thingy
12:58:46 <ais523> the amount of electricity that a human can feel when it discharges is a lot more than the amount needed to destroy a computer
12:58:52 <ais523> but good, I use a static wrist thingy too
12:59:01 <AnMaster> ais523, and I take off any fleece clothing
12:59:07 <AnMaster> which is probably even more important
12:59:42 <AnMaster> fleece gets static very easily
12:59:47 <ais523> fleeces are made of plastic IIRC
12:59:57 <AnMaster> ais523, and it keeps you wonderfully warm
13:00:27 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the linoleum though?
13:00:34 <AnMaster> that shouldn't cause static should it
13:00:58 <ais523> it's an interaction of two things that causes static
13:01:04 <AnMaster> oh btw as far as I can tell the static metal part is isolated by plastic from the wheels, Well the wheels are plastic *shrug*.
13:01:09 <ais523> e.g. rubber soles of shoes and whatever carpets are made of
13:01:31 <ais523> plastic wheels + linoleum floor might be a combination that charges up
13:01:45 <ais523> I'm not sure if there's a general rule to determine which combinations charge, and which don't
13:01:52 <AnMaster> ais523, current shoes are made of sheep skin with the woolly(sp?) bit turned inside for warmth
13:02:15 <ais523> it's not the material of the shoes generally that matters
13:02:18 <ais523> but the material of the soles
13:02:26 <ais523> static charging's caused by friction
13:02:32 <ais523> and which materials are involved in the frictioning
13:02:39 <AnMaster> ais523, hm. unknown type of rubber like plastic I'd say
13:02:56 <AnMaster> fairly stiff since it is the only think that provides stiffness to this chair
13:03:11 <AnMaster> however I was rolling around by holding on to the wooden table
13:03:34 <AnMaster> and then propelling myself around by <insert fancy word for arm-based muscular force or something>
13:04:37 <ais523> ehird: you know how you keep asking about garbage collection for windows? I think I've realised how I do it
13:04:49 <ais523> I get into the habit of switching windows by alt-tabbing at random, and if I hit one I'm not using, I just close it
13:05:25 <AnMaster> ais523, also how many windows do you have?
13:05:35 <AnMaster> I have three to four generally
13:05:38 <ais523> AnMaster: doing whatever's appropriate to close it, which may involve saving first
13:05:47 <ais523> atm I have IRC, email, web browser
13:05:59 <ais523> the first three are for general Internet interaction; the last two are my work
13:06:43 <AnMaster> ais523, terminal is for everything
13:07:06 <ais523> yes, I'm saying what the terminal has atm
13:07:10 <ais523> it actually has three tabs open
13:07:16 <ais523> one for work, the other two browsing NetHack's source code
13:07:26 <AnMaster> ais523, for email, did I ever mention I only recently switched from pine?
13:07:38 <ais523> but I didn't know that
13:07:47 <ais523> what are you using now? mail(1)?
13:08:02 <AnMaster> which is like pine, only more maintained
13:08:10 <ais523> partly to annoy people who don't like Evolution, but mostly because I like the way its UI works
13:08:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I used thunderbrid at times.
13:08:22 <AnMaster> ais523, less so than evolution
13:08:26 <ais523> it's just slightly too obnoxious
13:08:42 <AnMaster> ais523, evolution reminds me of outlook
13:08:45 <ais523> lots of things you can click on by mistake, mail notifications that say the text of the email onscreen so you have to turn them off, et
13:09:04 <ais523> AnMaster: Evolution does similar things to outlook
13:09:12 <ais523> but at least the UI mostly doesn't get in the way
13:09:33 <ais523> (Outlook's UI is pretty bad, with lots of top-of-page popups telling you all sorts of things you didn't care about)
13:09:42 <AnMaster> ais523, and evolution fails to sync against anything but palm units
13:09:56 <AnMaster> my mobile phone over bluetooth? Just forget it
13:09:57 <ais523> it syncs against IMAP and POP3 just fine
13:10:05 <ais523> I don't have a mobile, so I don't care about syncing with those
13:10:08 <AnMaster> ais523, I meant: embedded devices
13:10:34 <ais523> my family has a landline, I use that on occasion
13:10:37 <ais523> also, sometimes use payphones
13:10:53 <AnMaster> ais523, you live at home? I somehow thought you didn't
13:11:28 <ais523> yes, I live with my parents; that house doesn't have Internet
13:11:29 <ais523> and I don't want it there
13:15:37 <AnMaster> ais523, btw is Wolfram american?
13:15:53 <ais523> I think he's technically British but has lived in the US most of his life
13:15:57 <ais523> Wikipedia probably has more details
13:16:09 <AnMaster> ais523, mathematica used "color" somewhere I'm sure
13:16:22 <ais523> oh, even I often write in US English when programming
13:16:41 <ais523> so writing "colour" probably wouldn't be compatible with libraries
13:16:48 <ais523> and would annoy Americans using my programs
13:18:38 <AnMaster> ERROR: ld.so: object '/usr/lib/libalut.so' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored.
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13:37:56 <FireFly> Because it's such an important expression
13:38:32 <oerjan> very cyclic reference, that
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13:38:41 <quantumEd> it doesn't make sense without context
13:39:29 <oerjan> well nothing does, really
13:42:13 <oerjan> it cannot be a lie, it isn't a cake
13:42:52 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it does follow that if all cakes are a lie, then all lies are a cake.
13:42:57 <fizzie> (That might also be a lie.)
13:43:17 * oerjan eats fizzie's lie. tastes of cinnamon.
13:43:42 <fizzie> Hey, incidentally, we had a fancy cake: http://zem.fi/g2/d/8450-2/p1040206.jpg
13:44:32 <fizzie> (Me and my wife both graduated this autumn -- I'm sure I've mentioned at least the case of myself -- and we felt somehow obligated to arrange something quasi-fancy mostly for the relatives.)
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13:45:16 <oerjan> are those flowers and stuff marsipan?
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13:45:36 <fizzie> Not exactly, but they are some sort of mostly sugar-based edible building material.
13:46:12 <fizzie> Well, technically edible. There were also few bits of metal wire in the longer sections of leaves to provide some structural integrity, so you had to be a bit careful there.
13:46:47 <oerjan> wait, you're _married_? is that legal in this channel?
13:47:20 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure there must be some other instances of that class here too. I mean, statistically speaking. In a group of this many people.
13:48:10 <fizzie> Besides, does it still count if my wife is a programmer (well, "software engineer") by vocation?
13:48:25 <oerjan> not that geeks don't marry, i know a couple who met through the local roleplaying club. still go alternate weeks while the other babysits, afaik
13:49:45 <fizzie> Due to some ancient HR/payroll software system field width restrictions, her salary receipts say "SOFTWARE ENGINE"; I think that's hilarious.
13:52:23 <oerjan> well if you speak of human resources, software engines seem but a small step
14:06:36 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Hey, incidentally, we had a fancy cake: http://zem.fi/g2/d/8450-2/p1040206.jpg <-- does the shape have any meaning
14:06:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, remind me which theme it was?
14:07:08 <oerjan> with a hint of steve&terry
14:07:55 * oerjan found the punchline to d&d pretty funny
14:08:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: Not really, no. We did think a bit of using the traditional headgear of the university students (there's a very specific type of hat) as the cake motif, but decided it would be too tacky.
14:08:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, same hat as in Sweden?
14:08:39 <AnMaster> oh wait, that isn't for university
14:08:48 <AnMaster> it is for starting at university iirc
14:09:18 <AnMaster> downloading 500 mb at 300 K/s is painfully slow
14:09:27 <AnMaster> at least if you want to get it done quickly
14:09:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, well, I don't know about your hats; here the "university of technology" students get the hat at the end of their first study year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TFteknolog.jpg
14:09:52 <fizzie> "In Finland and Sweden students of technology wear a special kind of cap. It is similar to the cap given to all high-school graduates in both countries, but features a tuft and different kind of cockade showing what university the bearer is attending. "
14:10:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, your hat looks like you our plus a lot of extra stuff
14:10:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, huh I had no clue about this
14:10:54 <fizzie> There's no specific graduation hat from university here. And putting a Ph.D. doctoral hat there might have been a bit premature. :p
14:11:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I know about that, and it happens later yes
14:11:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do professors get I wonder
14:11:35 <fizzie> A pink tiara. (Okay, not really, but they should.)
14:12:20 <fizzie> Here's one of our professors: the man with the crown: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-olli-makinen/content/DSC_5926_large.html
14:12:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is not standard clothes I think
14:12:44 <fizzie> It's from the combined CS-and-related-departments christmas party, so, no.
14:13:10 <AnMaster> and who is that figure on the t-shirt?
14:13:13 <fizzie> That performance was the traditional: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Boys%27_Singing_Procession
14:14:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah I was suspecting something like that but I just couldn't believe my eyes
14:14:15 <fizzie> "The Finnish version contains non-biblical elements such as king Herod vanquishing the "king of the Moors", and a short song of praise to tsar Alexander." The black man is the king of the Moors, I think.
14:14:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, what's up with the guy next to him
14:15:00 <fizzie> At least I remember Herod (our professor) vanquishing him. Note the toy light saber; it had lights when activated, and made the proper noise.
14:15:34 <fizzie> It was indeed a rather drink-rich party, or so I hear: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-olli-makinen/content/DSC_5978_large.html
14:15:59 <fizzie> (I slipped out after the dinner part, we had to prepare for that cake-party of ours, which was the very next day.)
14:16:54 <fizzie> You may also take a look at a short summary from the lecture slides given at the beginning of the occasion: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-jukka-patynen/content/20091127_1MG_1637_large.html
14:17:13 <fizzie> Rather many, I think. Over one hundred, probably less than three.
14:17:40 <AnMaster> what is the copy machine thing about?
14:18:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait so you say in the interval (100,3)?
14:18:03 <fizzie> The traditional office christmas party "meme" is to take copies of your... uh, nether regions, with the office copy machine.
14:18:15 <fizzie> (100, 300). I abbreviated a bit.
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19:23:54 <pikhq> http://appfrica.net/blog/2009/12/08/evidence-of-language-discovered-in-monkeys/#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=evidence-of-language-discovered-in-monkeys Would a linguist please stand up and comment, kthx?
19:35:47 <oerjan> alas, it seems not to be turing complete
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19:42:54 <uorygl> (I have a friend who's a linguistics grad student; I know this stuff!)
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19:44:15 <uorygl> I'm not sure he's right about what "recursion" means. I would expect him to, seeing that he's a software engineer.
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22:45:04 <augur> pikhq: monkeys do not have language.
22:45:32 <augur> the person writing the article doesnt even know what hes talking about
22:46:50 <augur> oerjan: monkey "languge"? because not even human language is turing complete.
22:46:51 <augur> not that you're here, or anything, but.
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23:04:43 <uorygl> It seems obvious that monkeys communicate. This report indicates that this one monkey language seems to have a suffix.
23:04:59 <augur> communication is not language, however.
23:05:20 <augur> at least not in the sense that human language is language.
23:05:31 <augur> if we construe the meaning of language broadly enough, then almost anything is language
23:05:36 <augur> it reduces to communication
23:05:44 <augur> hell, it might even reduce to semiotics
23:06:06 <augur> but language, that is, the kind humans use, is a very different sort of beast
23:06:54 <augur> firstly it employs a wealth of combinatorics to produce expressions
23:07:17 <augur> second, it has a rather extensive, (mostly) arbitrary symbolic representational system
23:07:51 <uorygl> These monkeys don't have that at all; they have about five morphemes.
23:08:04 <augur> they dont even have morphemes, right
23:08:24 <augur> because morphemes are particular units that encode meaning bundles of some sort
23:08:31 <augur> monkeys dont even have that
23:09:02 <augur> they have calls that induce other behavior in other monkeys, but they're not encoding symbolic meaning
23:09:40 <augur> when a monkey gives off a "snake" call or an "eagle" call, its a trigger that induces other monkeys to look for the snake or eagle and then recapitulate the call or ignore it
23:09:51 <augur> and the recapitulation induces avoidance behavior in the troop
23:10:09 <augur> the call does not induce monkeys to sit around pondering the nature of snakes, etc.
23:11:06 <augur> it probably COULDNT even do that; it not meaningful, its purely instinctual.
23:11:35 <augur> its unlikely that monkeys have anything remotely like a thought "oh there's an eagle" when they hear the call
23:11:41 <augur> they just go into a reactive mode of being
23:12:11 * uorygl ponders whether his goal of teaching language to animals is doomed.
23:12:17 <uorygl> (It totally is, ain't it.)
23:12:32 <augur> animals, not even CHIMPS, have a chance of learning language.
23:12:36 * uorygl ponders teaching language to the Piraha instead.
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23:12:43 <augur> they already have language
23:12:51 <augur> dan everett is just an idiot.
23:16:29 <augur> theres a paper i can send you a copy of
23:16:40 <augur> that talks about the supposed exceptionality of piraha
23:16:49 <augur> its really not that exceptional.
23:17:05 <augur> thats actually the name of it, too, right
23:17:07 <augur> "piraha exceptionality"
23:17:19 <augur> http://faculty.virginia.edu/linganth/Docs/Everett-Nevins-etal.Piraha-Exceptionality.pdf
23:18:11 <uorygl> Well, of course they have language.
23:18:22 <uorygl> I was being... offensive or something.
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00:02:22 <pikhq> augur: I was wondering about your opinions on the topic, and if you could read past the somewhat stupid article and tell me whether or not it had any... Useful meaning.
00:03:01 <augur> human language is far more complex than just any silly little thing that shows that monkeys have "prefixes"
00:03:06 <augur> as if this is surprising to begin with
00:03:25 <lament> ##philosophy is discussing language as well, and their discussion is even more inane
00:04:40 <augur> philosophers are often completely ignorant of linguistics in any real sense.
00:04:59 <lament> i don't think the people there are philosophers, i think they're just trolls
00:15:19 <pikhq> ... Someone claimed that the Piraha don't have a language?!
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00:36:23 <lament> hey, I heard Piraha don't have a language..
00:38:05 <uorygl> The Piraha don't have a language? Interesting; I'll make note of that.
00:41:49 <lament> I don't have a language, so I have to speak English instead
00:49:27 <uorygl> ¿No tienes una lengua? Yo pensaba que hablabas... I dunno.
00:49:59 <uorygl> Finnish or Spanish o algo.
00:54:21 <lament> es que no tengo mi propia idioma, solo hablo los de los demás
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00:59:40 <uorygl> Tampoco yo tengo mi propia idioma; inventar una idioma es difícil y otros no me comprenderían.
01:01:05 <uorygl> A menos que se basa en griego o algo.
01:02:11 <uorygl> (Que siempre he querido hacer, inventar una idioma basado en griego.)
01:02:29 <uorygl> (Podría llamarla "griego".)
01:08:43 <pikhq> uorygl: Mi pensas ke vi bezonas studadi Esperanton.
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01:09:30 <uorygl> It would be nice if I knew how to ask how to say stuff in Esperanto in Esperanto.
01:11:23 <pikhq> La vorto "foo" en Esperanto estas kion?
01:11:40 <pikhq> (... I think; my Esperanto isn't *that* good.)
01:11:55 <uorygl> Also to ask the meaning of an Esperanto thing.
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01:15:11 <uorygl> I guess that would be 'La vorto "bezoni" en anglo estas kion?'
01:15:33 <uorygl> And I'm sure it would be fine to say 'Kion estas la vorto . . .'
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01:16:15 <pikhq> And answering your question, "should" or "ought to".
01:17:04 <uorygl> Wiktionary says it's "needs to".
01:17:42 <pikhq> You're right. 'Tis late.
01:18:43 <uorygl> Remind me how the letter V is pronounced.
01:19:09 <ais523> like F, but you put your top teeth on top of your bottom lip while you say it
01:19:16 <ais523> and you end up with a buzzier sound as a result
01:19:26 <ais523> also, you let your throat resonate
01:19:30 <ais523> so V has a pitch whereas F doesn't
01:20:27 <uorygl> So it's pronounced like a V, in other words.
01:24:19 <ais523> oh, I was explaining in English
01:24:22 <ais523> I don't know about Esperanto
01:24:42 <ais523> I'd just assumed you'd forgotten how to pronounce it, it's not like it's used all this often
01:24:55 <ais523> nor like it's the sort of thing that the sort of people who typically hang out here would particularly need to remember
01:25:49 <uorygl> So you pronounce your Fs bilabially?
01:26:10 <ais523> it's too early in the morning to remember what "bilabially" means
01:27:00 <uorygl> In a manner involving both lips.
01:28:33 <fizzie> Technically, then, it would be very hard to pronounce anything non-bilabially without removing one of the lips, because they always affect how the sound radiates out.
01:28:50 <uorygl> Yes, but only minorly.
01:30:17 <fizzie> Vocal synthesizers still tend to have a lip radiation model. (Of course my viewpoint is the speech recognition one, not the linguistic one.)
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01:31:31 <pikhq> ais523: It's roughly the same phoneme in Esperanto.
01:32:57 <uorygl> Says Wikipedia: "Mia kontribuo estas modesta sed mia subteno estas sincera."
01:34:00 <uorygl> Says another Wikipedia: "Mi cantidad es pequeña pero mi apoyo es sincero."
01:34:47 <uorygl> Says another: "My amount is little, but my support is sincere."
01:35:20 <uorygl> What a coincidence that three different donors with the same name should donate the same amount on the same date with messages that are word-for-word translations of each other.
01:36:38 <ais523> same person, presumably they just translated the messages
01:36:58 <uorygl> I wonder what the original was.
01:37:11 <uorygl> The guy's name is Yizhao Lang, so probably English. >.>
01:37:11 <fizzie> Maybe the donation form asks for messages in all the Wikipedia languages? To keep the less clever donators out.
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03:37:50 <oerjan> <augur> oerjan: monkey "languge"? because not even human language is turing complete.
03:41:02 <oklofok> well if you don't understand his complicated linguistic babbles, you could just ask.
03:41:17 * oerjan swats oklofok -----###
03:41:59 <quantumEd> what does it mean to talk about human language in that way?
03:42:02 <oerjan> you misread the *WHOOSH* target
03:42:09 <oklofok> i mean helpless people are the ones you want to swat
03:42:28 <oerjan> _clue_less, oklofok, clueless
03:42:40 <oerjan> well, and willfully malignant
03:42:53 <oklofok> my will is full of malignant stuff
03:43:23 <oklofok> it's even worse puns than usual day
03:44:46 <oklofok> blah, i don't have a printer, can someone print these papers for me, scan them, and email them to me?
03:44:47 <oerjan> hm wait it's a US/british thing
03:45:25 <oerjan> you don't have a print to file option?
03:45:38 <oklofok> so willful would in fact only mean what i interpreted it as, in us english?
03:46:07 <oerjan> the reverse. if it is even that simple
03:46:45 <oerjan> those us/british spelling differences aren't always as clearcut as the dictionaries would seem to imply
03:47:01 <ais523> is there no way to open a 1 GB uncompressed tar file on Windows?
03:47:10 <ais523> without installing software?
03:47:25 <oerjan> you should write one - in feather, naturally
03:47:43 <oklofok> oerjan: printing to file doesn't help, i need the stuff on paper
03:47:44 <ais523> and, given that there isn't, why would anyone distribute Windows software in that form?
03:48:27 <oklofok> ais523: to get the thing in one file?
03:48:35 <ais523> they could have used .zip, though
03:48:40 <ais523> or, well, anything Windows actually handles
03:49:07 <oklofok> i thought it just had some sort of compressed folder thing of its own
03:49:21 <ais523> I thought you used Windows
03:49:22 <oklofok> i probably won't know tomorrow either
03:49:27 <ais523> or am I muddling you with someone else?
03:49:57 <oklofok> i'm just not interested in how specific programs work
03:50:27 <oklofok> unless the details feel theoretically interesting to me
03:50:49 <oklofok> but i recall compressing a folder once
03:50:59 <ais523> "new compressed folder" just creates a zip file
03:51:08 <fizzie> "Nowadays" is a bit stretching it, given that (source: Wikipedia) Windows has included zip file support (under the "compressed folders" terminology) since 1998.
03:51:31 <ais523> that's not very many versions of Windows, though
03:51:45 <oklofok> win98 is what i know most about, probably
03:51:47 <fizzie> 98, ME, XP, 2003, Vista, 7.
03:52:39 <fizzie> It's more of a server thing, I think.
03:53:14 <fizzie> Windows Server 2003 is the official name. But it's still arguably a version of Windows.
03:53:31 <oklofok> oh that actually does sort of ring a bell
03:53:48 <oklofok> which is weird, i'm not a serverologist
03:54:23 <fizzie> It's there sort-of between XP and Vista. The internal version numbers are 5.2.something.
03:54:57 <oklofok> xp and vista are both 5.2.something?
03:55:05 <ais523> vista's 6.0, Win7's 6.1
03:55:14 <fizzie> XP is 5.1.something, as far as I know; and Vista's 6.x.
03:55:24 <ais523> (I remember that precisely /because/ it's so ludicrous)
03:55:36 <fizzie> It's a bit bizarre that 7 is not 7 when it easily could've been.
03:55:45 <oklofok> would've been kinda weird if they'd had the same whole number for vista and xp
03:55:54 <oklofok> err whole number isn't a very good term for that is it
03:56:00 <ais523> apparently the reason is to support broken programs that check the version number with == rather than >=
03:57:16 <oklofok> was the whole point just the pun?
03:59:26 <oklofok> the other one is the watch thing?
03:59:42 <oklofok> wanna break that down for me, i don't think it quite works
04:00:29 <fizzie> Film the one: "The Core is a 2003 science fiction disaster film -- concerns a team that has to drill to the center of the Earth and set off a series of nuclear explosions in order to restart the rotation of Earth's core." Film the other: "Sunshine is a 2007 British science fiction film -- with the Earth in peril from the dying Sun, the crew is sent to reignite the Sun with a massive stellar bomb, a nuclear device with the equivalent mass of Manhattan Island."
04:00:33 <fizzie> When in doubt, blow it up.
04:01:40 <ais523> heh, I never noticed that my home dir was the same on the Windows and Linux systems here
04:02:07 <oerjan> there is also a film about prevent the sun from blowing up, or something
04:03:14 <oklofok> i don't see what sunshine has to do with this
04:03:27 <oerjan> oklofok: also the subtitle pun
04:03:31 <oklofok> why isn't there a proof for these jokes, annoying trying to reverse-engineer them
04:03:47 <oerjan> and the hovertext but i don't think that's different from the main one
04:04:44 <fizzie> Sunshine is the film the xkcd description most reminds me of. Though maybe that's only because I've seen it and not seen that The Core film.
04:05:27 <oklofok> well in the hovertext "happening on my watch" works (barely imo), in the actual comic i don't think the watch thing works at all
04:05:49 <oklofok> i tend to need some instructions for this stuff
04:05:51 <oerjan> oklofok: you need to reread it i guess
04:06:29 <oerjan> and by that i mean everyone
04:06:45 <oerjan> since you cannot get it before the end pun is revealed
04:07:40 <oerjan> that message into the phone is a bit amusing
04:08:28 <oklofok> but the thing is that guy is *for* daylight saving, is his point he wants to get to use the daylight saving feature on his watch?
04:09:28 <oklofok> the phone message is a side joke referring to the fact movie people are pretty, afaiu, if it's a joke about the sun being hot, i don't understand it at all.
04:09:51 <oerjan> oklofok: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic (MWAHAHA)
04:10:55 <oklofok> it's weird how reluctant people are to explain jokes properly, don't you want me to share the good laugh! :\
04:11:24 <oerjan> didn't you read the MWAHAHA
04:11:57 <oerjan> oklofok: puns don't work if you don't mostly get them yourselves?
04:12:41 <oerjan> that was a rhetorical question, you're not supposed to question it!
04:13:29 <oklofok> i was about to ask if there was a specific pun in that, but maybe i'll leave the subject of me being dense for now ;)
04:15:01 <oklofok> okay i guess i finally understand how tvtropes can be addictive
04:15:19 <oklofok> i guess the random articles i've tried to get hooked on didn't have enough terms
04:15:36 <oklofok> terms need to be checked of course
04:15:49 <oklofok> "what's this tomato surprise now?"
04:17:05 <oerjan> see you again on monday, then
04:19:19 <oerjan> are you one of those people who can eat just one peanut, or something?
04:21:16 <oerjan> good. i was beginning to question your humanity, there
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04:43:43 <ais523> why question that which you know does not exist?
04:45:29 <oerjan> i must not have got the memo
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04:52:03 <oklofok> is there a tvtrope about characters never fucking telling someone "i'll explain this later" when someone starts asking something, but they really need to do something
04:52:20 <oklofok> happens in pretty much everything i watch, i'm like "tell him to fucking ask you tomorrow"
04:54:08 <oklofok> well, except in rare cases, doesn't always work, although that never seems very plausible, sure people can say something like "you always say that", but, well, if that's true, then maybe the characters should've been less crappy friends in the past.
04:54:25 <oklofok> should be *except in rare cases;
04:54:56 <oklofok> also "no seriously this is life or death, i'll explain this tomorrow at 12:00"
04:56:20 <oklofok> ...i mean that would definitely work, not sure it was clear.
05:18:13 <oklofok> oerjan: okay took almost an hour of my time
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05:19:04 <oklofok> wikipedia surfing is much more dangerous though
05:19:49 <oklofok> that's just because you already know everyhing
05:20:18 <oklofok> or possibly because you don't want to know everything... well might be a bit of a stretch
05:20:25 <oklofok> well, have to go clean dog vomit ->
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05:34:59 <fizzie> So you cleaned dog vomit or both? What's the other thing?
05:36:49 <oklofok> actually there were 4 puddles of vomit
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06:19:28 <ais523> in most situations, holding someone's eyelids open, then shining bright lights into their eyes, then asking them lots of questions
06:19:39 <ais523> would be considered a torture, or at least a really nasty interrogation
06:19:45 <ais523> so why are opticians allowed to get away with it?
06:20:42 <oklofok> i've heard similar arguments about dentists
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07:00:39 <quantumEd> "Roger Penrose is the king of bullshit. He's got a fucking PhD in bullshit (and mathematics). However, since he actually understands quantum mechanics, he had to find another rug to sweep the details under: quantum gravity."
07:05:23 <oklofok> because you agree, because you don't, or other?
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07:20:24 <quantumEd> "Quantum computers are not known to be able to solve NP-complete problems in polynomial time."
07:27:37 <AnMaster> that doesn't seem quite true from what I remember
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07:52:41 <Gregor> That statement needs clarification.
07:52:53 <Gregor> Quantum computers are not known to be able to solve /all/ NP-complete problems in polynomial time.
07:53:04 <Gregor> There are NP-complete problems which are solvable in polynomial time by quantum computers.
07:55:39 <oklofok> do you know the definition of np-completeness?
07:56:15 <oklofok> or can't quantum computers do polynomial time reductions in polynomial time
07:56:18 <Gregor> It's NP-complete if it's in NP and it's NP-hard. It's NP-hard if all problems in NP can be reduced to it.
07:56:37 <Gregor> When I say the definition, clearly it's stupid to think that some NP-complete problems are and some aren't X-D
07:56:40 <Gregor> Didn't think that one through :P
07:56:55 <Gregor> Well, certainly some NP problems are solvable in polynomial time on a quantum computer.
07:57:00 <oklofok> yeah remembering stuff is dangerous
07:57:08 <oklofok> yes, like doing nothing :P
07:57:30 <Gregor> Fleh, some NP-P problems.
07:58:17 <oklofok> i can't find a reason to laugh at that, so it's probably true.
07:58:35 <quantumEd> if someone finds a quantum algorithm to do NP-hard problems then did they prove P=NP?
07:59:01 <quantumEd> if they find an quantum algorithm to solve NP problems in P
07:59:17 <oklofok> well can polynomial time runs on a quantum computer be simulated by polynomial runs on a tm?
07:59:24 <Gregor> They just prove that quantum computers are more powerful than they thought.
07:59:35 <quantumEd> more powerful than a turing machine?
07:59:50 <Gregor> Not more powerful per se
07:59:56 <oklofok> if they can, then that would prove P=NP, because you'd have an algorithm to solve the problem in polynomial time, just simulate the quantum algo.
07:59:56 <Gregor> But able to compute more in less time.
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08:00:17 <quantumEd> since everyone seems to think P <> NP, then the reasonable assumption is that quantum computers are stronger than normal computers?
08:00:17 <oklofok> Gregor: the question was mostly socratic method, i think
08:00:43 <quantumEd> oklofok: my questions? They were not socratic I was genuinely asking
08:00:47 <Gregor> quantumEd: In the sense that they can compute things in lower time bound, not in that they can compute more overall.
08:00:57 <oklofok> quantumEd: no i mean my question about the polynomial runs
08:01:07 <Gregor> T.M.s are still valuable as a representation of all that can be computed, Q.C.s can just compute it faster.
08:01:10 <oklofok> Gregor answered it, i was sort of trying to make you answer your own question
08:02:22 <quantumEd> even if it can only compute the same things.. it's still stronger than a turing machine though?
08:02:26 <oklofok> quantumEd: afaiu the quantum computing model is somewhere between determinism and nondeterminism, i haven't seen a formal definition for that stuff, and sadly i don't understand anything but that.
08:02:32 <quantumEd> well it's still a TM complexity class isn't it.....
08:02:35 <oklofok> anything that isn't formal
08:02:57 <Gregor> It's not more powerful, it's just faster. At least by the definition of computational power I'm used to.
08:04:05 <quantumEd> so can you make a random number generator on a quantum computer?
08:04:15 <oklofok> quantumEd: it's just as strong in the turing reduction sense, less strong using other reductions, like a polynomial time reduction, at least nondeterministic tm's
08:05:01 <Gregor> Now that's an interesting point ... kinda. Quantum computers may be able to produce truly random numbers, which could arguably make them more powerful than a T.M. since the problem "produce a completely-random number" can be run on them but not a T.M.
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08:05:30 <quantumEd> I'm still confused about the P vs NP thing
08:05:52 <quantumEd> it can only compute tthe same set as the turing machine... but it can do it faster: Without proving P=NP
08:06:34 <oklofok> np doesn't mean you do things faster
08:06:49 <oklofok> it means you do them in polynomial time in a different model of computation
08:07:06 <Gregor> Specifically, nondeterministic Turing machines.
08:07:30 <oklofok> we know the actual algorithms you can write are the exact same, but in the known reductions, nondeterministic algorithms just map to deterministic algorithms that take a fuckload of time.
08:07:47 <quantumEd> Am I getting mixed up between computational models and complexity classes?
08:08:38 <oklofok> usually we define complexity classes as classes of languages that have some properties
08:08:48 <oklofok> these properties can involve different computation models
08:09:20 <quantumEd> but there's quantum complexity classes
08:09:21 <oklofok> like the property defining P is "the problem of whether w \in L can be solved in polynomial time with a deterministic turing machine"
08:09:35 <quantumEd> why do they exist? I mean aren't the nomal complexity classes good enough?
08:10:08 <oklofok> if the quantum complexity classes are not equal to any known complexity class, but they are studied, why not give them a name?
08:10:24 <quantumEd> well why aren't they equal to the other classes
08:10:32 <quantumEd> how can a new model of computation lead to new complexity classes
08:11:03 <oklofok> for the same reason that it's not necessarily true that P = NP
08:11:04 <quantumEd> it is just to give a more fine grained characterization so that we can observe the difference in 'speed' like that
08:11:11 <oklofok> because we define the steps the machine can take differently
08:11:16 <quantumEd> (between quantum computers and turing machine)
08:11:31 <oklofok> so differently, that a polynomial amount of steps in the other can't necessarily be translated into a polynomial amount of steps in the other
08:13:57 <oklofok> also there's probabilistic machines, which afaik give us completely separate classes again
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08:14:55 <oklofok> i don't really know much complexity theory, it's fascinating, but we don't have courses about it atm, and i don't really have much time for anything outside courses and irc
08:15:02 <quantumEd> but if it's just a language why are the different
08:15:21 <oklofok> a prof did tell me today he might give a course in recursion theory if i managed to recruit more people interested in it
08:15:32 <oklofok> quantumEd: it's a class of languages
08:15:43 <oklofok> a specific machine recognizes some language
08:15:55 <oklofok> we define a class of them by taking all possible machines and seeing what they can do
08:16:22 <oklofok> usually given some restriction, like finite termination, termination on positive instances, termination in polynomial time...
08:16:45 <oklofok> oh and by class i just mean a set
08:16:46 <quantumEd> termination in polynomial time????
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08:17:27 <oklofok> termination in polynomial time. that's how P is defined, there's some polynomial that bounds the computation steps for an input of size n
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08:19:23 <oklofok> P is defined as the set of all such languages L that there is some machine M that recognizes exactly L, and there's a polynomial p such that the machine M always halts in p(|w|) steps or less
08:19:51 <oklofok> oh and the polynomial can be specific to the machine M
08:20:03 <oklofok> we define it as a deterministic turing machine in the case of P
08:20:16 <oklofok> in the case of NP, we take the exact same definition, but use nondeterministic turing machines
08:20:32 <oklofok> well i'm not sure what it's supposed to do with negative instances
08:20:46 <oklofok> as i said i don't know any complexity theory
08:21:16 <quantumEd> which replaces the turing machine with a quantum machine
08:21:18 <oklofok> but in any case it must recognize exactly the correct instances, and if the instance is positive, then it must halt in polynomial time.
08:21:36 <quantumEd> the question P = NP or QP = NP don't make sense.....
08:21:44 <quantumEd> since it's for different machines how can you compare
08:21:59 <oklofok> and probabilistic P, where you also have some sort of details about probabilities with which it succeeds
08:22:07 <oklofok> P = NP makes sense, these are just sets of languages
08:22:44 <oklofok> p contains stuff like {{"a", "b"}, a*b*c*, {"a", "aa", "aaa", ...}, ...}
08:22:51 <oklofok> np also contains some languages
08:22:57 <oklofok> we just ask whether they contain the same languages
08:23:11 <oklofok> (where a*b*c* is a regexp defining a language)
08:23:30 <quantumEd> what's the definition of a language? A set of strings?
08:23:32 <oklofok> complexity classes are sets of languages which are sets of words which are sequences of characters
08:23:48 <quantumEd> alright then I suppose the questions make sense
08:24:00 <oklofok> words must be finite, languages and classes can be infinite
08:24:18 <oklofok> in fact a language is considered trivial if it's finite.
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08:25:15 <ais523> ugh, this laptop is getting more and more broken
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08:25:30 <ais523> now the screen frame has got deformed somehow, and the screen doesn't shut as a result
08:25:53 <quantumEd> so is there a proof that NP <> QP?
08:26:03 <quantumEd> I wonder if I invented QP or if that's a real one...
08:27:29 <quantumEd> QMAM: Quantum Merlin-Arthur-Merlin Public-Coin Interactive Proofs
08:27:49 <oklofok> i don't know the answer, but i think NP is a superset of QP, and QP is a superset of P, in which case we couldn't know, because then we'd also know P!=NP
08:28:38 <quantumEd> so if you prove P = QP and QP <> NP, or P <> QP and QP = NP, then you'd have solved the NP thing
08:29:18 <oklofok> yes, assuming the chain of inclusion
08:29:27 <oklofok> but that's just basic set theory
08:29:51 <oklofok> they're just sets of languages, remember
08:30:08 <quantumEd> The class of decision problems solvable by polylogarithmic-depth quantum circuits with bounded probability of error. (A uniformity condition may also be imposed.) "
08:30:28 <quantumEd> that's interesting a lot of the quantum stuff incorperates error bounds
08:30:44 <quantumEd> I guess what we really want is hooking up quantum computers with normal ones -- so we can check the outupts
08:31:06 <oklofok> so many things to learn, so little time... oh wait, i have tons of time left
08:31:37 <quantumEd> BQP: Bounded-Error Quantum Polynomial-Time
08:31:44 <quantumEd> http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Zoo:B#bqp
08:31:56 <quantumEd> that means you can use subroutines
08:32:13 <quantumEd> in general, for a class C, C^C = C means you can use subroutines?
08:32:47 <quantumEd> Arthur is a BQP (i.e. quantum) verifier who can exchange quantum messages with Merlin. So Arthur and Merlin's states may become entangled during the course of the protocol.
08:32:49 <oklofok> yes, usually A^B means you have an oracle that solves B in, say, one step, and you solve A given that oracle
08:34:44 <oklofok> like P^NP = NP, in P^NP you can solve any problem in NP in one step, but a nondeterminitic turing machine can already do that.
08:35:04 <oklofok> i think, at least, might be talking out of my ass, in which case i hope someone corrects this.
08:35:12 <oklofok> no in fact i don't think that's true...
08:37:56 <oklofok> it's an open question whether P^NP = NP
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08:38:59 <oklofok> NP \subset P^NP anyway... :)
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08:40:16 <quantumEd> only 10 mins and we stumble over an open question
08:40:44 <quantumEd> now I remember why I was too scared to study complexity theoryy befor
08:41:42 <quantumEd> http://www.scottaaronson.com/writings/qchallenge.html
08:41:44 <quantumEd> Ten Semi-Grand Challenges for Quantum Computing Theory
08:42:32 <oklofok> yeah complexity theory is full of open stuff, and it's full of towers that might be completely useless, like the whole polynomial hierarchy
08:43:04 <oklofok> towers, as in, we have these infinite sequences A1, A2, ..., and it's not known whether we're actually just talking about one set
08:43:31 <oklofok> but the thing is we have tons of structure between these sets, it's just... it might all be just relations between the set and itself :P
08:44:53 <oklofok> "yay we solved the open problem of whether the complexity class A <= complexity class A with regard to this awesome reduction, using this awesome binary search technique"
08:45:54 <oklofok> (...at least, again, this is how i see it, mostly hearsay...)
08:46:47 <quantumEd> "After twelve years of effort, not only do we still not know whether BQP sits in the classical polynomial hierarchy, there's really no evidence either way"
08:48:32 <oklofok> we do have courses about quantum computing, or at least one
08:49:12 <oklofok> we have a lot of computing stuff here, discrete math uni sorta
08:49:44 <ais523> AnMaster: I just found http://whybzrisbetterthanx.github.com/
08:50:24 <oklofok> then again the materials for our real analysis course come from another university completely, and the professor who lectures the course doesn't even really do it.
08:50:43 <ais523> ofc, github are potentially biased
08:51:20 <quantumEd> oklofok here's a good one "Is BQP = BPP^BQNC? In other words, can the "quantum" part of any quantum algorithm be compressed to polylog(n) depth, provided we're willing to do polynomial-time classical postprocessing?"
08:51:37 <quantumEd> (This is known to be true for Shor's algorithm.)
08:51:41 <oklofok> ...let me do some polynomial time classical postprocessing on that sentence for a while
08:52:29 <quantumEd> if it was true the implication is that it's easier to build quantum computers than currenlty though
08:54:01 <oklofok> well... i don't know how they're currently built, so...
08:54:44 <quantumEd> it's something to do with physics and chemisty, I think.. not my domain
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08:55:48 <oklofok> not mine either, although interest has arisen this year
08:56:16 <oklofok> well... i don't really know... i have this problem that i find pretty much everything interesting.
08:56:41 <quantumEd> I hardly find anything interesting
08:56:42 <oklofok> used to be all of math and cs, but it's getting out of hand!
08:57:16 <quantumEd> well with this quantum stuff it seems like knowing a good bit of physics is important for the computing bits
08:57:49 <oklofok> anyway i need to go read about mortality now
08:59:13 <quantumEd> those 3 things sound completely unrelated
08:59:15 <oklofok> mortality of matrices means given a set of matrices, can you multiply them to zero
09:00:16 <oklofok> in this course, basically leading to proving gödel's incompleteness, although mortality is a much studied field in our uni
09:00:40 <quantumEd> who cares about proving godels incompleteness :/
09:01:06 <oklofok> oh well i guess no one, but isn't it sort of something people are supposed to hear about?
09:02:04 <oklofok> maybe you're right, maybe it's the mortality problem that's the interesting one, and not the provability of statements
09:02:20 <quantumEd> I thought mortality was about death rates
09:02:52 <oklofok> terms can have many meanings
09:03:06 <oklofok> especially in mathematics where every word has a separate mathematical meaning...
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09:32:26 <fizzie> Mortalitys could be some sort of "more philosophical" finishing moves in the Mortal Kombat games. They already have plain old fatalities, and a huge number of variants (animality, babality, brutality, friendship; probably some I don't know of), so why not a mortality too.
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09:47:53 <oklofok> and the animation could be like a bunch of matrices around the dude that multiply towards it and finally implode into singularity
09:48:46 <oklofok> he becomes a total zero and everybody laughs at him
10:27:12 <uorygl> "We wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year" is a famous unsolved problem in mathematics.
10:27:31 <uorygl> It's been proven that we wish you either a merry Christmas or a happy new year, and most mathematicians believe we wish you both.
10:28:00 <uorygl> Also, it's been proven that we wish him a merry Christmas and that they wish you a happy new year.
10:28:20 <OxE6> what if I want a happy christmas and a merry new year?
10:28:23 <ais523> are there any norwegians here? there are dubious reports of a giant UFO above the whole of norway
10:28:34 <ais523> and I was wondering if someone would confirm or deny
10:28:53 <uorygl> And there are a few papers about whether we wish you other time periods of other degrees of novelty and other enjoyabilities.
10:29:22 <uorygl> OxE6: that would contradict the axiom of choice, but it's believed to be consistent with plain old ZF.
10:29:25 <quantumEd> there's some links to pics and news reports
10:30:25 <uorygl> Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory.
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11:03:01 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: I just found http://whybzrisbetterthanx.github.com/ <-- heh
11:04:20 <AnMaster> ais523, if I said something like that about git then ehird would get very angry and point out how irrelevant it was due to being opinion based. Yet I'm quite sure he won't act that way when it is about bzr
11:04:55 <ais523> meanwhile, I've been having my own thoughts about writing VCSes
11:05:07 <ais523> anyway, I should really go home
11:05:17 <ais523> issue is that the laptop screen's having hardware problems, and as a result the laptop no longer closes
11:05:20 <ais523> I really badly need a new computer
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11:05:36 <AnMaster> ais523, get a new laptop then?
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11:26:21 <oerjan> <Gregor> When I say the definition, clearly it's stupid to think that some NP-complete problems are and some aren't X-D
11:26:50 <oerjan> glad you realized it. also glad that i didn't comment before reading on in the logs for once
11:27:46 <oerjan> 23:57:30 <Gregor> Fleh, some NP-P problems.
11:28:24 <oerjan> i am not sure whether any of the candidate problems are known not to be in P, even assuming P != NP
11:29:22 <oerjan> (factorization and discrete logarithm are the once i recall reading about)
11:31:08 <oerjan> problems in NP not in P
11:31:10 <oerjan> <oklofok> well can polynomial time runs on a quantum computer be simulated by polynomial runs on a tm?
11:31:23 <pikhq> oerjan: I was interpreting that as "NP minus P" problems.
11:31:23 <oerjan> i think that's as unknown as P vs NP
11:31:40 <pikhq> ... Which suggests I'm not sure what.
11:31:53 <oerjan> well the - is set difference, which is probably pronounced minus rather often
11:33:19 <oklofok> oerjan: quantumEd found that out
11:33:48 <oerjan> oklofok: well i've obviously gone back to commenting before finishing reading, haven't i :D
11:34:01 <oerjan> <quantumEd> since everyone seems to think P <> NP, then the reasonable assumption is that quantum computers are stronger than normal computers?
11:34:23 <oerjan> it's _a_ reasonable assumption, but i'm not sure there's a clear implication either way
11:34:34 <oklofok> anyway i really don't know anything about quantum computing, not all my questions were socratic method
11:34:42 <oklofok> they were also "i have no idea"
11:35:00 <oerjan> as in quantum computers _could_ be simulated in P even if P != NP, but they might also require PSPACE which is harder than NP...
11:35:54 <oerjan> all unsolved problems iirc
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11:36:55 <oerjan> <Gregor> T.M.s are still valuable as a representation of all that can be computed, Q.C.s can just compute it faster.
11:37:58 <oerjan> heck T.M.'s aren't that good for fine-grained complexity anyway, because they don't have random access memory so you might get a quadratic overhead to use memory
11:38:39 <oerjan> although all the "big" questions that i know about care only about polynomials, so aren't that fine-grained
11:38:40 <lament> infinitely addressble random access memory would certainly be cool :)
11:38:58 <oerjan> subleq may be a good model for that
11:39:32 <fizzie> Hey, whoa; Debian unstable's updating VirtualBox from 3.0 to the recent 3.1, which *finally* adds: "VM states can now be restored from arbitrary snapshots instead of only the last one, and new snapshots can be taken from other snapshots as well ("branched snapshots"; see the manual for more information)"
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11:42:23 <oerjan> <oklofok> quantumEd: afaiu the quantum computing model is somewhere between determinism and nondeterminism, i haven't seen a formal definition for that stuff, and sadly i don't understand anything but that.
11:43:14 <oerjan> i think it's a different kind of nondeterminism than NP, with adding (superpositions) of quantum states and all, so not obviously contained either way as i said
11:43:17 <fizzie> (Also a couple other nice changes; virtio-net support for guests to sidestep the silly "emulate a real network card" and live migration of VMs between hosts, for example.)
11:45:00 <oerjan> PSPACE might be considered a higher form of nondeterminism than both (arbitrary mixing of existential and universal quantification is the essence of the PSPACE-complete problem QBF (quantified (nothing to do with quantum) boolean formula)
11:46:39 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_quantified_Boolean_formula
11:46:40 <oklofok> so can we also define pspace with an alternating turing machine
11:50:14 <oerjan> well the wp article on the latter seems to imply so
11:55:44 <oerjan> <quantumEd> how can a new model of computation lead to new complexity classes
11:56:18 <oerjan> many complexity classes are simply what you get when adding resource bound measurements to a computational model
11:57:27 <oerjan> L, P, PSPACE you get from adding it to ordinary deterministic turing machines
11:57:38 <oerjan> NL, NP with nondeterministic ones
11:58:06 <oerjan> and those are believed to be different. so why shouldn't quantum models give yet another set
11:58:26 <oerjan> (PSPACE = NPSPACE but that is a theorem which needed proof)
12:02:21 <oerjan> 00:20:16 <oklofok> in the case of NP, we take the exact same definition, but use nondeterministic turing machines
12:02:24 <oerjan> 00:20:32 <oklofok> well i'm not sure what it's supposed to do with negative instances
12:02:42 <oerjan> if you switch positive and negative, you get the class co-NP instead
12:03:25 <oerjan> co-SPACE = SPACE is another nice theorem...
12:06:08 * oerjan notes he is repeating some of what oklofok said
12:06:31 <oerjan> well, except oklofok actually explained in some detail
12:07:22 <oerjan> <oklofok> i don't know the answer, but i think NP is a superset of QP, and QP is a superset of P, in which case we couldn't know, because then we'd also know P!=NP
12:07:32 <oerjan> ok that one i think i contradicted ;D
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12:10:19 <oerjan> <oklofok> like P^NP = NP, in P^NP you can solve any problem in NP in one step, but a nondeterminitic turing machine can already do that.
12:10:27 <oerjan> <oklofok> i think, at least, might be talking out of my ass, in which case i hope someone corrects this.
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12:11:41 <oerjan> that's connected with the unsolved NP = co-NP problem, i think
12:12:19 <oerjan> basically NP cannot obviously use itself as a subroutine because there is no way to utilize a "no" result
12:13:07 <oerjan> but if NP = co-NP then you can convert between yes and no, so you get a way around that
12:13:32 <oerjan> also in that case the polynomial hierarchy collapses iirc
12:15:28 <oerjan> actually i'm not quite sure about that, should goolge
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12:21:47 <oerjan> bah i cannot find a clear statement in any of wp articles i checked
12:24:16 <oklofok> oerjan: ok that one i think i contradicted ;D <<< but unfortunately so did quantumEd :P
12:24:41 <oerjan> yes he did, i just got to it
12:24:45 <oklofok> that was not QP, i think it was some other character mess
12:24:56 <oerjan> <quantumEd> "After twelve years of effort, not only do we still not know whether BQP sits in the classical polynomial hierarchy, there's really no evidence either way"
12:25:07 <oklofok> the NP vs. P^NP thing i googled myself :D
12:25:37 <oerjan> i assumed BQP was what you meant by QP
12:25:52 <oklofok> "oerjan: basically NP cannot obv..." <<< oh lol that should've been obvious, thanks
12:26:01 <oklofok> that's what you get for not knowing the exact definition
12:26:36 <oklofok> "oerjan: if you switch positive and negative, you get the class co-NP instead" <<< this doesn't tell me what the machine does with negative instances, does it?
12:27:19 <oerjan> a nondeterministic turing machine answers "yes" if there is any path which gives a yes answer, "no" otherwise
12:27:24 <oklofok> oh yeah i prolly meant BQP
12:27:31 <oerjan> the co-classes reverse that
12:27:55 <oerjan> it's the same as switching existential and universal quantification
12:28:04 <oklofok> but how fast does it answer no?
12:28:37 <oerjan> if you know the polynomial bound, then there is no reason not to cut off after you get to it, regardless
12:28:48 <oklofok> i mean in cook's original reduction he said it returns false right away iirc
12:29:34 <oklofok> well okay i've read a version of it that uses a more traditional model of a computer
12:29:53 <oklofok> to think after all this time i don't know exactly what NP means :D
12:29:53 <oerjan> there is also the answer checking version...
12:30:05 <oerjan> but they are equivalent
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12:31:14 <oerjan> well i am pretty sure assuming the machine has the same time available whether it answers yes or no gives the right class
12:31:49 <oklofok> well, i suppose it's enough that it accepts stuff in polynomial time, and doesn't accept the wrong stuff
12:32:11 <oklofok> i mean for proofs... would just make it easier to think of it as an actual machine if i had any idea what it actually does for other instances
12:32:54 <oerjan> as i said, if you know the polynomial bound, you can just cut off once it is reached, say by adding a time counter to your machine
12:33:14 <oerjan> so you don't get anything more general
12:33:40 <oerjan> what was it about again? ;D
12:33:44 <oklofok> oerjan: is calculating the time bound a computable function though?
12:33:49 <oklofok> i mean just out of interest
12:33:58 <oklofok> doesn't change the argument if it isn't
12:34:42 <oerjan> oklofok: well in a sense no, it could involve a constant you don't know...
12:35:29 <oerjan> but for proofs, you can just start with the assumption a polynomial bound exists
12:36:14 <oerjan> unless you are doing something meta over many problem instances, i am sure this subtlety _can_ trip you up somehow then :D
12:37:20 <oerjan> ein little bischen romance
12:37:53 <oklofok> little was a bigger typo imo
12:37:55 <oerjan> oklofok: i was not attempting perfect german here
12:38:13 <oerjan> that wouldn't fit into the theme anyway :D
12:38:29 <oklofok> "ein bisschen" is like "a bit"
12:38:38 <oerjan> for proper german i would leave out the "little"
12:38:47 <oerjan> bisschen already implies it
12:39:32 <oerjan> (actually this should be sz but that is awkward on this keyboard)
12:39:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, err klein being small would be more "common knowledge" wouldn't it?
12:39:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: well to non-german speakers perhaps...
12:40:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is what I meant yeah
12:40:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, after all everyone surely knows about Eine kleine Nachtmusik?
12:43:10 <oerjan> i was more wondering about the "kleine", since it's a title
12:44:05 * oerjan notes the top google results are inconsistent, but wp doesn't use caps for it
12:44:29 <oklofok> isn't that just an english thing
12:44:44 <oerjan> well my german is rusty
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12:48:51 <oerjan> <ais523> are there any norwegians here? there are dubious reports of a giant UFO above the whole of norway
12:49:06 <oerjan> i cannot say i noticed while walking home today :D
12:50:15 <oerjan> would be bad timing, they have put out a lot of anti-aircraft batteries for obama's visit tomorrow ;D
12:51:11 <oerjan> changed the other day from something US
12:52:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: also, around oslo, in case of any terrorist airplane hijackings
12:52:58 <oerjan> well or airplanes anyway
12:54:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm there is just one news story in those links mentioned there: dailymail
12:54:16 <AnMaster> from what I remember that is untrustable
12:54:26 <AnMaster> but I'm no expert on UK news papers
12:55:09 <AnMaster> the daily mail article looks like a joke
12:55:14 <oerjan> also "whole of norway" could very well be just one town before rumors spread
12:55:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, it said "northern norway" there
12:57:02 <oerjan> and trøndelag, which is here
12:59:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, which place with that name?
12:59:27 <AnMaster> Sør-Trondelag? Slightly south of Trondheim?
12:59:44 <oerjan> Sør-Trøndelag is the county containing Trondheim
13:00:00 <augur> anmaster: is your name oerjan?
13:00:24 <augur> why did you comment about monkey "language" not being TC?
13:00:25 <AnMaster> augur, no but I was confused by that it wasn't followed by anything else on the line?
13:00:29 * oerjan goes to check norwegian newspaper
13:00:55 <augur> AnMaster: is tht a statement or a question
13:00:55 <oerjan> augur: because Gregor made an Ook joke and i followed along
13:01:51 <augur> as long as you dont think that human language is TC
13:02:22 <oerjan> ah it's the top story at vg.no
13:02:48 <augur> italian for "male vagina"!
13:02:56 <oerjan> it's short for "verdens gang" (although no one uses the long form these days)
13:03:39 <oerjan> hm gang is hard to translate idiomatically
13:03:50 <oerjan> verdens = of the world
13:04:28 <oerjan> literally it means walk, movement
13:04:44 <augur> a large one a vaginissimo, and a small one is a vaginino!
13:04:49 * AnMaster just had a new idea for silly warranty/license combination
13:05:33 <AnMaster> inside the shrink-wrapped package there is a paper with the text "warranty void if shrink wrapping is broken"
13:07:10 <oerjan> hm it seems to be genuine
13:08:15 <oerjan> well as in people really have seen something
13:10:25 <augur> i think you could write an interesting story around that
13:11:04 <oerjan> *seen and taken videos of something
13:11:36 <oerjan> our "experts" suspect a russian rocket
13:12:29 * oerjan is happy irssi didn't know how to run that command
13:15:06 <oerjan> http://www.vg.no/nyheter/vaer/artikkel.php?artid=596439 includes video
13:17:16 <quantumEd> it's not a rocket they don' whirl :/
13:18:50 <oerjan> speculation is it could be a rocket spiraling out of control
13:31:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, what does "selv" mean?
13:34:49 * AnMaster notes that Google translate for Norwegian → Swedish is quite a lot better than usually, but still far from good
13:35:39 <AnMaster> "skyldes en russisk rakett, selv om det ennå ikke er offisielt bekreftet."
13:35:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, so one word means self and even?
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13:37:33 <AnMaster> in the context "Ifølge kilder i den russiske TV-kanalen Russia Today"
13:38:24 <oerjan> so "själv om" doesn't mean "even if" in swedish?
13:38:42 <AnMaster> " benektet en talsmann for at de visste noe om en rakettoppskyting."
13:38:52 <AnMaster> "nekade en talesman att de inte visste något om en raket lansering. "
13:39:15 <oerjan> a bit too much negation?
13:39:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, is it in the original too?
13:39:42 <oerjan> no, just "benektet" is negative
13:40:22 <AnMaster> for the benefit of English speaking users: "denied that they knew anything" turned into "denied that they didn't know anything" basically
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13:40:29 <augur> ok so the idea is like
13:40:55 <augur> maybe in some future world companies will just do this shit with license-violated-if-plastic-is-broken
13:41:02 <augur> but theyll take it to the extreme where the license is INSIDE the plastic
13:41:16 <augur> but in its OWN plastic so youd have to break the plastic to read the license
13:41:46 <augur> and then some smart guy down in econometrics realizes, well, who cares then if we just leave out the actual inner material for the license
13:41:54 <augur> just let the license sheet be blank, but for the front page
13:41:59 <augur> we'll save a boatload of money
13:42:39 <augur> and eventually theyre just selling software or whatever without licenses
13:42:56 <AnMaster> <augur> but theyll take it to the extreme where the license is INSIDE the plastic <-- yes I said that far
13:42:58 <augur> and this leads to some humor and a doctorowesque tragedy-of-copyright-law thing
13:43:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, "hevder fenomenet kan komme fra en lyskaster"?
13:46:24 <oerjan> wp crosslink gives me "stage lighting instrument"
13:47:29 <oerjan> (section on that crosslinked page)
13:48:09 <oerjan> hm could be spotlight too
13:48:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, ufo, and government trying to hush it up and failing to coordinate the hushing up with Russia.
13:48:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, is there a video somewhat watchable? Like youtube or youtube?
13:49:08 <oerjan> what was wrong with the video on that page?
13:49:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, no javascript, no flash
13:49:43 <oerjan> well the article mentioned youtube so probably
13:51:33 <AnMaster> the one I found was quite a fail
13:51:42 <AnMaster> it looks nothing like those static pictures
13:52:44 * oerjan is not terribly interested
13:53:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, missile does sound plausible *shrug*
13:54:06 <AnMaster> and if it is high enough up in the atmosphere it could easily be illuminated by the sun
13:54:09 <oerjan> might check out the thread on the reddit front page. if you can read _that_
13:54:38 * oerjan hasn't reached that yet though
13:55:59 <oerjan> well yeah... much of that region probably has no sunlight this time of year
13:58:52 <SimonRC> oh dear god not over here as well
14:07:37 <AnMaster> <oerjan> might check out the thread on the reddit front page. if you can read _that_ <-- which one on there
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14:09:13 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/actjs/mystery_as_spiral_blue_light_display_hovers_above/
14:09:23 <oerjan> is the one i see on the front page
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14:09:57 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/acp3d/strange_spiral_phenomenon_appearing_on_the_sky_in/ is much larger
14:12:23 <oerjan> ok when i suggested the reddit thread it was in case there were further video links there, maybe i should have mentioned that
14:12:49 <oerjan> the actual discussion can be ... variable ...
14:13:05 <oerjan> and i still haven't looked at it myself, mind you
14:19:57 <AnMaster> hm 255 points, first I wondered why reddit was using unsigned char for the vote
14:20:05 <AnMaster> before I realized it probably wasn't max
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17:01:03 <MizardX> My guess is a semi-failed fireworks experiment. :)
17:03:58 <quantumEd> failed?? peopel around the world saw it!
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23:37:55 <coppro> the following is legal C++0x: struct foo { long inline int explicit unsigned volatile virtual long const f(); }; fun
23:38:28 <coppro> replace f with operator long const int volatile long unsigned
23:39:14 * coppro wonders what the longest chain of nonredundant keywords possible is
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00:06:53 <pikhq> coppro: long inline int explicit unsigned volatile virtual long const f()? Man. That's quite impressive.
00:07:13 <coppro> pikhq: could string "operator" in there too
00:08:03 <pikhq> long inline int explicit unsigned volatile virtual long const operator !(void) const; // Maybe?
00:10:15 <coppro> long inline int explicit unsigned volatile virtual long const operator and ();
00:10:21 <coppro> technically "and" is not a keyword
00:11:42 <coppro> and I guess if you count those, you could just have an arbitrary pointer expression constructed with bitand bitand bitand bitand bitand bitand bitand bitand bitand... i; to dereference it umpteen billion times
00:12:03 <coppro> actually, you can do that with keywords to!
00:12:25 <coppro> do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do ... ; while(1); while(1); ...
00:21:43 <Asztal> `haskell do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do 2
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01:25:13 <pikhq> coppro: x: goto x; goto x; ...
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01:40:35 <Asztal> int(*p)(int,int,int,int,int,int,int,int,int,...,int,int);?
01:45:30 <fizzie> Those all have some non-whitespace punctuation/non-keywordy stuff, unlike the do do do do do re mi wait I got sidetracked.
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14:39:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, remind me what it was about?
14:40:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, I read it hours ago too
14:40:20 <oerjan> well i guess we'll never know, then
14:41:56 <oerjan> ah yes. i somehow thought that was yesterday.
14:43:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, hah! found out your secret then!
14:43:39 <AnMaster> that explains how you can always had read it hours ago
14:44:13 <oerjan> i don't always have read it hours ago
14:44:22 <oerjan> and besides, you started it
14:46:18 <oerjan> but but ... won't that kill the channel?
14:46:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes indeed it would. Evil mirror universe fizzie is trying to trick you
14:47:25 * oerjan recalls a scifi story about evil mirror beings
14:47:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, isn't that one of those required things if you have any sort of parallel universes?
14:48:00 <oerjan> they actually went _through_ mirrors though
14:48:12 <AnMaster> like you got to have dragons in novel length fantasy
14:48:26 <AnMaster> (short stories are not subject to these rules)
14:48:38 <oerjan> and there was a planet that had removed all mirrors after getting rid of them the first time
14:48:51 <AnMaster> <oerjan> they actually went _through_ mirrors though <-- Alice through the looking glass
14:48:59 <oerjan> even water ponds did not reflect there
14:49:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, what did they add to the water to make that happen?
14:50:13 <oerjan> no idea, it was not exactly hard scifi
14:50:17 <fizzie> "It's not a dragon, it's a dragaeran.
14:50:27 <oerjan> also i read it > 20 years ago, i think
14:51:08 <fizzie> "Gabe: How about the fact every person in this book is some kind of dragon?
14:51:08 <fizzie> Tycho: Not dragons *per se*. Technically, they're Dragaerans.
14:51:08 <fizzie> Gabe: That's fair. Let's say I were to... chokeaeran you. Would you appreciate the distinction?"
14:51:25 <fizzie> It's from http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/06/14/
15:02:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, no long story arcs in that one right?
15:02:47 * AnMaster prefers comics that have a long story
15:03:02 <AnMaster> rather than one story per day or such
15:04:19 <fizzie> "Yes, you are correct; there are no long story arcs in that comic."
15:04:46 <fizzie> "*Yes*, you are correct; there are *no* long story arcs in that comic."
15:05:12 <fizzie> There are a couple of occasions they've done continuity over multiple strips, but never more than a couple.
15:05:14 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
15:05:23 <fizzie> fungot: Wouldn't you agree?
15:05:23 <fungot> fizzie: the year was 1942. fighting was intense in the streets of... why are you looking for?
15:05:41 <fizzie> That's a strange name for a place.
15:06:23 <fizzie> Maybe not stranger than for example Mount Lookatthat, though "what" would work better.
15:07:04 <fizzie> In the Larry Niven books.
15:07:08 <fizzie> Probably not in real world.
15:07:55 <oerjan> so it's nowhere near Your Finger You Fool?
15:09:29 <fizzie> There's also the planet NowWhat, named after the opening words of the first settlers to arrive. (In the Hitchhiker books. With the capital city OhWell.)
15:09:47 <fizzie> I remember seeing the "Your Finger You Fool" thing written down somewhere too.
15:10:22 <fizzie> It's the place with the boghogs.
15:11:41 <fizzie> "-- the major activities pursued on NowWhat were those of catching, skinning and eating NowWhattian boghogs, which were the only extant form of animal life on NowWhat, all other having long ago died of despair."
15:11:48 <fizzie> To quote Adams himself, it's a bleak book.
15:12:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, was it the alternative earth thingy
15:12:45 <fizzie> Yes. Well, the place that were in the place Earth should've been.
15:12:51 <Rembane> Are the boghogs the one who only communicate by biting each other hard?
15:12:58 <fizzie> Rembane: On the thigh, yes.
15:13:24 <fizzie> "Life on NowWhat being what it was, most of what a boghog might have to say about it could easily be signified by these means."
15:14:14 <Rembane> fizzie: I think that part is very funny.
15:14:35 <fizzie> Possibly, though the part with the boghog-killing is a bit depressing.
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15:16:42 <Rembane> I have forgot that part, luckily it seems.
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16:06:53 <augur> whats the language that has time travel?
16:07:03 <augur> or is that one of you guyses
16:07:52 <augur> whos language is feather?
16:08:35 <lament> it seems a pretty cheap idea
16:08:41 <lament> you could tack time travel onto any language
16:08:55 <lament> i'd like to see a time travel monad in haskell
16:09:30 <coppro> not liable to ever be finished
16:09:39 <augur> im pretty sure that monads already count as time travel
16:09:54 <lament> usually only in one direction :)
16:09:55 <coppro> at least, not compared to Feather
16:09:59 <augur> there was a guy who talked about representing monadic operations visually
16:10:04 <coppro> in Feather, you get to retroactively modify the compiler
16:10:22 <augur> and how the behavior of monads looks a lot like you're performing computations on values and spitting out answers before you even have the values
16:15:23 <oerjan> i've seen a backwards state monad...
16:23:14 <SimonRC> coppro: how is that even computable?
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17:07:04 <uorygl> I don't think monads are like time travel.
17:08:23 <oerjan> no. monads are like boxes filled with chocolate. belgian.
17:12:24 <lament> radioactive chocolate burritos
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17:14:07 <uorygl> Ah, arrows. I've forgotten about those.
17:15:48 <uorygl> What are the primitives? (a :-> b) -> (b :-> c) -> (a :-> c), (a -> b) -> (a :-> b), and (a :-> b) -> ((a,c) :-> (b,c))?
17:17:58 <oerjan> you listed (>>>), arr and first iirc
17:18:57 <quantumEd> backwards state monad is computable, it makes essential use of lazyness
17:19:28 <quantumEd> Elephant has not got time travel but maybe something similar
17:19:41 <quantumEd> I think I remember reading something on the esolang wiki about time travel though
17:20:55 <oerjan> huh they've added a Category superclass
17:24:44 <oerjan> looks like those are the minimal set
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17:42:12 <pikhq> Monads aren't like boxes filled with chocolate. Monads are like Schroedinger's cat in a box. ... Or something like that.
17:42:39 <pikhq> Anyways, the point is that you observe it and then it calculates the state.
17:44:57 * oerjan thinks pikhq did not get the joke
17:45:03 <oerjan> http://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/ may help
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20:49:00 <quantumEd> Heisenburgers.com - Certain about good taste.
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21:33:21 <pikhq> I would like to comment that Oleg's C++ is the most amazing thing I have ever read.
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21:38:45 <pikhq> coppro: ... He does it in current C++.
21:39:05 <coppro> pikhq: yeah, it's just more verbose and yucky that way :(
21:39:12 <coppro> still, it's pretty awesome
21:39:16 <coppro> especially when combined with templates
21:39:28 <coppro> (which is basically the only way to do it, but still)
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21:40:09 <pikhq> Actually, that's not even functional programming in the template system...
21:40:18 <pikhq> He just defines classes with operator().
21:40:33 <pikhq> And defines macros to make that sane.
21:42:01 <pikhq> ... Granted, you still need some templates for passing lambdas to functions. Not as crazy as you'd expect.
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21:53:21 <zzo38> I was just looking at the page about Timefuck today
21:58:26 <zzo38> I was also thinking about self-modifying codes in video DSPs, today, too.
22:05:10 <zzo38> Also I noticed that the CPUID program I wrote won't work on the anarchy golf server
22:05:24 <zzo38> (It outputs all null bytes if run there)
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22:17:15 <zzo38> 2000,{{`1/sq%A+}F91=}^Pa
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04:54:51 <Ilari> Wonder what else than just XHRs it let to do...
04:55:55 <ais523> JavaScript is relatively well sandboxed; ofc, there'd be more of a problem if another bug let the JS escape the sandbox
04:56:25 <Ilari> Such bugs are almost certainity.
04:56:26 <ais523> still, hearing about a tarball exploit is kind-of funny, just like hearing about image file exploits in Windows
04:57:27 <Ilari> And being able to do arbitrary XHR, its not bound by same-origin. And then one wonders what other nonstandard permissions it has.
04:57:43 <ais523> same-origin hardly makes a lot of sense, given that it's a tarball
04:58:04 <ais523> hmm... same origin would presumably mean the local filesystem, I /hope/ it can't XHR there
04:58:26 <ais523> if the URL is a file:// URL, does XHR ever let you do that?
04:58:28 <Ilari> Applying same-origin here would disallow XHR completely.
04:58:56 <Ilari> Since it would only allow file:// and those can't be XHR'd to.
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05:00:15 <ais523> ok, I'm glad that file:// can't be XHR'd to
05:00:24 * ais523 vaguely wonders if IE knows that
05:04:02 <Ilari> ais523: AFAIK, XHR'ing file:// makes as much sense as sending form to file:// URL.
05:04:22 <ais523> at least I can understand what the semantics of the first should be
05:05:05 <ais523> (besides, you /can/ send forms to file:// URLs, if you have a file whose name ends ?key1=value1&key2=value2, etc)
05:05:34 <ais523> (the issue is you need a separate file for each possible form input)
05:05:47 <ais523> hmm... now I want to invent a really weird filesystem driver that effectively creates a CGI filesystem
05:26:06 <ais523> as in, certain filenames automatically do weird things
05:26:15 <ais523> rather than just get a static file from disc, it's auto-generated, for instance
05:26:19 <ais523> sort-of like /proc, but different
05:27:20 <ais523> basically, it makes an HTTP request from inside JavaScript running on a browser
05:27:27 <ais523> the XML part is completely irrelevant, presumably there for historical reasons
05:27:41 <ais523> which, likewise, may not actually involve XML
05:30:28 <AnMaster> ais523, hm what is a good algorithm for collision detection between 2D circles?
05:30:51 <ais523> calculate the distance between their centres (using pythagoras)
05:30:53 <ais523> if that's less than the sum of their radii, they collided
05:30:58 <ais523> this works in any number of dimensions
05:31:12 <ais523> circles are particularly easy shapes to do collision detection with :)
05:31:40 <AnMaster> ais523, what about a circle and a rectangle?
05:31:59 <AnMaster> ais523, the rectangle may be rotated btw
05:32:06 <ais523> you need to find what point on the rectangle is closest to the centre of the circle, by comparing coordinates
05:32:10 <ais523> then measure the distance to that
05:32:11 <FireFly> heh, that circle collision one is neat, I've used that before
05:32:21 <ais523> so, first you determine where the centre of the circle is, in the rectangle's coordinate system
05:32:30 <ais523> then you see whether it's nearest one of the corners or one of the sides
05:32:42 <ais523> and I was really young at the time
05:34:41 <AnMaster> ais523, what about collision detection of two circles to make them bounce realistically against each other?
05:34:51 <AnMaster> as in, calculating which directions they will bounce off in
05:35:01 <AnMaster> they may have different speeds and may not collide head on
05:35:08 <ais523> collision detection to see whether they hit each other
05:35:19 <ais523> then, you do the coefficient of restitution algorithms
05:35:33 <ais523> rather neatly, if the balls are perfectly elastic you can just swap the momentums of the two balls
05:35:40 <ais523> but if they aren't, you need to do a bit of A-level mechanics
05:36:10 <ais523> AnMaster: the exams people in the UK do just before they go to university
05:36:38 <AnMaster> ais523, well, perfectly elastic sounds fine here
05:37:05 <AnMaster> ais523, what about perfectly inelastic
05:37:23 <ais523> then you average the momentums, and both balls move at that average
05:37:35 <ais523> they stay stuck next to each other forever, if it's perfectly inelastic
05:44:30 <uorygl> You can't just swap their momenta; that's only if they hit head-on.
05:47:15 <ais523> even for glancing blows it works
05:47:25 <ais523> you don't reverse the momenta
05:47:29 <ais523> you swap them between the two circles
05:47:48 <AnMaster> ais523, what if one is moving faster and hit the other straight from behind?
05:48:10 <ais523> then the one in front ends up moving faster, and the one behind ends up movign slower
05:49:03 <AnMaster> ais523, what if one is static and unmovable (say, forming part of the scenery?
05:49:18 <ais523> then that's a different situation
05:49:40 <ais523> effectively, there are /two/ collisions involved there: circle with circle, and circle with fixed background
05:49:42 <AnMaster> lets say a circle bouncing against the edge of the simulation
05:49:45 <ais523> which changes the situation quite a bit
05:50:07 <AnMaster> ais523, no, I meant just a circle and the background
05:50:18 <ais523> if you have a circle bouncing against a fixed straight line, you just mirror its motion around that line, then translate by the diameter of the circle
05:50:20 <AnMaster> which is probably just the screen edges
05:50:34 <ais523> AnMaster: no, basically, the only physical reason something wouldn't move is that it's held in place
05:50:40 <uorygl> ais523: maybe I'm not sure what you mean by swapping them.
05:50:46 <ais523> if you're trying to model the physics, you have to model what's holding it in place
05:50:57 <ais523> uorygl: before the collision, circle a has velocity v_a, circle b has velocity v_b
05:51:06 <ais523> afterwards, circle a has velocity v_b, circle b has velocity v_a
05:51:13 <AnMaster> ais523, well I'm not exactly. I'm trying to model a semi-realistic game of pong with multiple balls and gravity
05:51:27 <uorygl> Then for glancing blows, they'll move exactly as if they had hit head-on.
05:51:40 <ais523> uorygl: no, because the velocities are different
05:51:47 <ais523> for a glancing blow, the velocities are similar beforehand
05:51:49 <ais523> so they're similar afterwards
05:52:06 <ais523> whereas for a head-on collision, the velocities change by a lot because they were very different beforehand
05:52:13 <uorygl> Oh, maybe we're not using "glancing blow" the same way.
05:52:14 <ais523> same formula, different effects
05:52:25 <uorygl> Consider a glancing blow when they're moving in opposite directions.
05:52:26 <ais523> ooh, I see what you mean now
05:52:34 <ais523> you're right, you have to allow for that case
05:52:44 <AnMaster> ais523, what happens in that case then?
05:53:10 <ais523> what I gave was a simplification
05:53:18 <uorygl> I think you have to decompose the momenta into two components and swap only one component.
05:53:40 * AnMaster currently tracks it as delta_x and delta_y
05:53:53 <ais523> perhaps it would be easier if AnMaster just learnt basic mechanics
05:53:55 <AnMaster> for ease of calculating next position
05:53:57 * uorygl ponders what to call those components.
05:54:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I forgot the stuff due to having a bad teacher in high school
05:54:32 <ais523> uorygl: it's the components normal to the shared tangent that are swapped
05:54:39 <ais523> and the components parallel to the shared tangent that stay the same
05:55:16 <uorygl> I wonder why I know this stuff. >.>
05:55:23 <fizzie> Worst physics teacher ever, generated small black holes everywhere.
05:55:34 <ais523> what I said previously assumed there was no component parallel to the shared tangent, which ofc isn't true in practice
05:55:52 <ais523> AnMaster: if you're trying to be really realistic with the physics, though, you'd model the effects of spin too
05:55:57 <uorygl> Well, it more assumed that the components parallel to the shared tangent were identical.
05:56:03 <ais523> because people use that a lot in actual table tennis
05:56:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not going that far
05:56:17 <AnMaster> not for the initial version anyway
05:56:25 <uorygl> I.e. as far as momentum went, the system was symmetrical.
05:56:48 <AnMaster> ais523, it isn't like the way the ball collides with the paddle is very realistic anyway in pong
05:57:49 <uorygl> Trivia: if a small black hole were charged, it would quickly absorb a particle of the opposite charge and become uncharged; if it were uncharged, it would hardly do anything. Assuming, as a worst-case scenario, that Hawking radiation doesn't work.
05:58:32 <ais523> well, even if it does, it's unlikely to evaporate instantly
05:59:05 <AnMaster> ais523, would that radiation be harmful?
05:59:26 <ais523> there wouldn't be enough of it to measure unless you had an LHC-quality radiation detector
05:59:45 <ais523> although IIRC it would probably be in the gamma region, so theoretically harmful if you had enough of it
05:59:54 <uorygl> Well, it depends on the size. How much mass is emitted by a light bulb each second?
06:00:02 <AnMaster> I mean, I have seen it mentioned a lot recentlu
06:00:20 <ais523> I was assuming "small black hole" = a few particles
06:00:24 <uorygl> AnMaster: that's because it's the name of a person that people have mentioned a lot recently.
06:00:36 <uorygl> Specifically, the owner of yudkowsky.net, who writes at lesswrong.com.
06:00:48 <AnMaster> uorygl, never heard of those web sites
06:01:27 <uorygl> When I first came across Yudkowsky, I found his stuff very interesting.
06:03:16 <uorygl> So, I guess I recommend it.
06:04:58 <ais523> heh, some Wikipedian made a list of all the things that are possible in Windows XP but not Windows Vista
06:05:03 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_removed_from_Windows_Vista
06:06:12 <fizzie> That'll be one long list of references after every statement is sourced.
06:06:31 <ais523> * The Log Off confirmation on the classic Start menu has been removed. <--- this
06:06:47 <ais523> not that it's that big a problem, just that the entry still says "Log off..." with three dots
06:06:55 <ais523> it gets me every time as I wait several minutes for the dialog box to come up
06:07:02 <ais523> no dots, and it wouldn't be a problem
06:07:14 <AnMaster> ais523, those dots. what happen instead?
06:07:22 <ais523> it just logs off, without confirmation
06:07:33 <AnMaster> ais523, then why waiting several minutes?
06:07:35 <ais523> but ... at the end of a menu item implies "dialog box coming" pretty much everywhere
06:07:41 <ais523> AnMaster: because that's how long it takes to log out
06:07:54 <AnMaster> ais523, why are you using vista?
06:07:58 <ais523> incidentally, I found something similar in Gnome network-manager today
06:08:04 <AnMaster> I mean, xp or 7 I can understand
06:08:07 <ais523> AnMaster: public terminals, I'm not always on my laptop
06:08:17 <AnMaster> but vista is just incomprehensible
06:08:32 <ais523> the network-manager problem is that if you try to make a global change, you get a ... at the end of whatever the OK button is called
06:08:44 <ais523> because you need to enter an auth password to change settings globally
06:08:54 <AnMaster> ais523, all windows computers at the university I'm at seems to run English XP Pro
06:08:57 <ais523> but if you already have a remembered password (i.e. on the sudo timeout), the dots are still there
06:09:00 <ais523> even though it doesn't prompy
06:09:06 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a mix of XP, Vista, and 7 here
06:09:09 <AnMaster> ais523, but with classicl look
06:09:13 <ais523> the computer in my office runs 7
06:11:25 <ais523> "Windows Vista restricts the amount of memory DPMI programs can have to 32 MB (33,554,432 bytes). The limitation applies to DPMI programs running inside NTVDM. [59] The same is not true for previous versions of Windows."
06:11:37 <ais523> and an issue for C-INTERCAL, I think
06:11:44 <ais523> given that it uses NTVDM when running the DOS build under Windows
06:12:27 <AnMaster> "The Gopher protocol is no longer supported."
06:13:01 <AnMaster> ais523, why can't you compile C-INTERCAL to use cygwin or something?
06:13:13 <AnMaster> ais523, or just windows directly
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06:13:20 <ais523> cygwin you can, just that's a different build
06:13:31 <ais523> and running the DOS build on Windows is useful, mostly because it's hard to test otherwise
06:13:38 <oerjan> um i haven't read it yet
06:14:00 <oerjan> just brought up mezzacotta
06:14:41 <ais523> what's with all the iwc reminders in here?
06:14:55 <AnMaster> ais523, "who is first to mention IWC" game
06:15:20 <ais523> oh, it's worse than the ehird/me hi game
06:15:21 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't you play "who can say hi first" with ehird about a year ago or so?
06:15:53 <ais523> I mentioned it first at this end
06:16:15 <ais523> (and please don't let this turn into a metawar of "who can mention 'who can mention first' first"...
06:16:36 <ais523> 22:15:20 <ais523> oh, it's worse than the ehird/me hi game
06:16:37 <ais523> 22:15:21 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't you play "who can say hi first" with ehird about a year ago or so?
06:17:03 <AnMaster> ais523, I do not acknowledge clog as an authority in these matters
06:17:56 <fizzie> I say ais523 wins, too. Not that my authority is any more justified.
06:17:56 <uorygl> 14:10:45 < ais523> oh, it's worse than the ehird/me hi game
06:17:56 <uorygl> 14:10:45 < AnMaster> ais523, didn't you play "who can say hi first" with ehird about a year ago or so?
06:18:04 <uorygl> You cannot escape the win.
06:18:42 <AnMaster> we need exact sub-second timestamps from precisely aligned clocks or something
06:19:35 <fizzie> For the records, my timestamps were 16:10:45 for both.
06:20:27 <oerjan> <ais523> (and please don't let this turn into a metawar of "who can mention 'who can mention first' first"...
06:20:29 <fizzie> oklopol: A winner is him.
06:20:46 <oerjan> i never metaw *hit by falling anvil*
06:20:55 <oklopol> i wonder when AnMaster'll realize he's always the one with the bigger lag
06:21:48 <AnMaster> oklopol, but I win due to using ipv6 to connect. Since the lag introduced by the tunnel is not counted due to it being so cool or something. Unless ais523 is also using ipv6?
06:22:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: also i saw ais523 first too
06:22:23 <oklopol> then it's a bit hard to say who wins
06:22:55 <oklopol> well i suppose you win if none of the lag is counted
06:23:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh the ipv4 lag is counted
06:23:22 <AnMaster> just not the bit due to the tunnel
06:23:31 <AnMaster> which is indeed hard to calculate
06:23:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, really it should be based on locally hitting enter
06:23:51 <AnMaster> which is very hard to calculate
06:24:53 <ais523> but you had the advantage based on the fact that you made the comment that triggered it
06:24:53 <ais523> so you'll have seen the trigger first
06:25:28 <AnMaster> ais523, however I wrote a much longer line
06:25:41 <AnMaster> ais523, so I must have started writing that line way before you did
06:25:42 <fizzie> The comment with the smaller SHA1 hash wins.
06:25:59 <ais523> fizzie: have you calculated them?
06:26:06 <ais523> also, hashing based on what content?
06:26:11 <ais523> just the bit after the nick? the whole message/
06:26:16 <ais523> if the whole message, as seen from which server?
06:26:22 <ais523> or are we writing nicks as <ais523>
06:26:27 <ais523> does the final newline count?
06:26:41 <fizzie> Just the message parameter part. And without the final newline; that's a message separator anyway.
06:26:50 <fizzie> "The bit after the nick", that is.
06:27:07 <AnMaster> $ echo -n "ais523, didn't you play \"who can say hi first\" with ehird about a year ago or so?" | sha1sum
06:27:07 <AnMaster> 0a09ff71a80478e5950fb22b21de5e26c80e14ef -
06:27:11 <AnMaster> $ echo -n "oh, it's worse than the ehird/me hi game" | sha1sum
06:27:11 <AnMaster> e487aa9edb31f3169ce431aec818ea1339679c78 -
06:28:07 <uorygl> Just the message parameter part, without the final newline, as that's the part that the user has the most control over.
06:28:12 <AnMaster> with sha512sum you would win ais523 : 98e07e1aaff52703459c37d2c069dcf245e7a9dff8b217cc132fdbe52cd8a4399e7bd474ae5a34c3fed86aa8d6db7f2148ab8077dcdeb053acabede44ad8b435 vs 35fd098b72b5af8f3314c4d94df407c1bb0b06b86b4f04cd2b8a220a05600f292d5967f2bf9c8f55f979de6173d65ce5b70620bf8d296f018667b51afa8cb31f
06:28:23 <ais523> $ echo -n 'oh, it'"\'"'s worse than the ehird/me hi game' | sha1sum4bdbea4adce1244fc1992c25027dc83510382b72 -
06:28:25 <ais523> $ echo -n 'ais523, didn'"\'"'t you play "who can say hi first" with ehird about a year ago or so?' | sha1sum
06:28:26 <ais523> 870b779382fc1782cab65d33fe31b346ac9d6d6f -
06:28:52 <ais523> although, strangely my client seems to have clipped a newline
06:29:02 <ais523> AnMaster: me = SHA1, you = SHA512
06:29:06 <ais523> that's why the results are different!
06:29:12 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> $ echo -n "ais523, didn't you play \"who can say hi first\" with ehird about a year ago or so?" | sha1sum
06:29:12 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> 0a09ff71a80478e5950fb22b21de5e26c80e14ef -
06:29:12 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> $ echo -n "oh, it's worse than the ehird/me hi game" | sha1sum
06:29:12 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> e487aa9edb31f3169ce431aec818ea1339679c78 -
06:29:23 <fizzie> ais523: Your way gives an extra \ in the hash input.
06:29:30 <fizzie> ais523: Just remove the sha1sum part and you'll see.
06:29:41 * oerjan notes this metawar got far out of hand
06:29:47 <uorygl> `run echo "blah\"blah\"blah"
06:29:51 <fizzie> oerjan: I never metawar that didn't.
06:30:09 <ais523> $ echo -n 'oh, it'"'"'s worse than the ehird/me hi game' | md5sum
06:30:11 <ais523> e876a9a90f35c175d397018775def433 -
06:30:12 <ais523> $ echo -n 'ais523, didn'"'"'t you play "who can say hi first" with ehird about a year ago or so?' | md5sum
06:30:14 <ais523> 94b963161db7696d693326c0748bd493 -
06:30:20 <ais523> fixing the backslash problem, looks like AnMaster wins on md5 too
06:30:47 <AnMaster> whirdpool? I don't seem to have any tool for calculating that around
06:31:07 <fizzie> Quick, whip up a script that uses wordnet synonyms, punctuation randomization and some arbitrary whitespace manipulation to calculate a "hash-optimized" way of saying any given thing.
06:31:08 <ais523> $ echo -n 'oh, it'"'"'s worse than the ehird/me hi game' | crc32 /dev/stdin
06:31:10 <ais523> $ echo -n 'ais523, didn'"'"'t you play "who can say hi first" with ehird about a year ago or so?' | crc32 /dev/stdin
06:31:40 <ais523> that's the Perl version
06:31:50 <ais523> which comes with Archive::Zip
06:32:13 <fizzie> AnMaster: Now you have sufficient information to find out, duh.
06:32:26 <ais523> presumably, whatever algorithm zipfiles use
06:32:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: You're the one who cares, duh?
06:33:20 <AnMaster> ais523, still, I think sha1sum is the one that should count
06:33:40 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Quick, whip up a script that uses wordnet synonyms, punctuation randomization and some arbitrary whitespace manipulation to calculate a "hash-optimized" way of saying any given thing. <-- done it yet?
06:33:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I think timestamp is what should count
06:34:12 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and the local one when one hit enter. Do you use ntp?
06:34:21 <fizzie> A weighted sum of all SHA-3 second round competitors, weights from the number of published cryptanalysis papers about them.
06:34:23 * AnMaster is looking for how to enable subsecond timestamps
06:35:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it's nontrivial for me to enable sub/minute/ timestamps
06:35:02 <fizzie> Having the "competitors" themselves provide the timestamps introduces an obvious trust problem.
06:35:26 <AnMaster> ais523, sounds like a shitty irc client
06:35:40 <ais523> no, just one optimised for different things than you want
06:35:47 <fizzie> The only solution I can think of is to have a trusted third party (me) install surveillance devices to both of your apartments. Stop wriggling, this is for your own good.
06:36:15 <ais523> AnMaster: Konversation
06:36:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, I agreed to the former statement
06:36:33 <ais523> fizzie: I disagree, on the basis that I'm not currently /in/ my apartment
06:36:37 <ais523> so it wouldn't have the desired effect
06:36:51 <fizzie> ais523: Don't worry, I'll just have someone follow you around.
06:37:08 <fizzie> Maybe that's a bit too expensive for this purpose, though.
06:37:15 <ais523> fizzie: as long as they're good at esoprogramming and fun to talk to, I don't mind
06:37:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I'm not in an apartement
06:37:54 <ais523> (again, same here, but I wasn't sure about definitions...)
06:38:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa* speeches ss wp youtube
06:38:22 <ais523> fungot: give me some garbage
06:38:23 <fungot> ais523: you could, but it is very weird. why didn't they just call it ten? that chick? dude. i mean, honestly. what's the hole card. that means you like shit!!!
06:38:29 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
06:38:35 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, if we continue to permit land to lie fallow or be set aside for them.
06:38:46 <ais523> fungot: heh, I like that style
06:38:49 <fungot> ais523: mr president, i would like to suggest that people can bring progress in the budgetary policy. it is disgraceful to change things, quite the reverse, it is not that but rather to the practice of executions in the usa because we have lost our bearings? this is a thinly veiled means of interfering in this process? the third point. the tragedy involving semira has shaken our society and, indeed, from country to country. whi
06:38:49 <fungot> AnMaster: despite the massive investment of the european parliament is well aware of the need to safeguard economies most dependent on coastal fishing, which contribute not only to goods and services.
06:38:51 <fizzie> "A single room of a house; the original sense being expressed by the plur. apartments." As long as you're not in multiple rooms simultaneously, that works.
06:39:06 <AnMaster> oh fizzie not fungot for the last line
06:39:07 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, madam president-in-office of the council, which has done most to expose real and fundamental problems of work and to consider that although the reduction in actual transportation costs. at the same time the european parliament has not taken the crisis in kosovo to an end.
06:39:19 <AnMaster> you seem confused about my kender
06:39:25 <ais523> fizzie: what's the chance that that style will start "mr president,"?
06:39:44 <AnMaster> <fizzie> "A single room of a house; the original sense being expressed by the plur. apartments." As long as you're not in multiple rooms simultaneously, that works. <-- as a matter of fact I do
06:40:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, separate bedroom (small) and office (also small)
06:40:18 <fizzie> ais523: "Very likely", but I don't have a tool for reverse-converting the language models to anything human-readable.
06:40:53 <fungot> ais523: mr president, on the basis of the charging system and also on how they should progress in future. the european refugee fund under category 3. in recent weeks and months to come.
06:40:53 <fizzie> ais523: I can do an empirical sampling of a thousand sentences or so if you like.
06:41:07 <ais523> I'm just wondering what causes it to do that
06:41:17 <ais523> does it take a random sentence and start with its first two words, for instance?
06:42:15 <AnMaster> <fizzie> ais523: "Very likely", but I don't have a tool for reverse-converting the language models to anything human-readable. <-- fungot not producing human readable output? XD
06:42:19 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, after a lively debate in stockholm, a special fund and that is the position in crafts and small and medium-sized cotton farms in greece, compared with fnord in it and that will not happen automatically, they are often housed in disgraceful conditions. this surely will be: ' very well, we need a uniform statute for asylum seekers and immigrants. the third aspect of this process, the middle east peace proc
06:42:38 <fizzie> ais523: It's just that every sentence in the corpus has had the special token START added in the beginning, and then those are modeled by the n-grams just like any other token; and the text generation starts with an (invisible) context "START".
06:42:51 <oklopol> fizzie: please make a graph about precidency.
06:43:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, I think the correct reply may be "augh"
06:43:30 <AnMaster> unless I saw a pun that wasn't there
06:44:34 <fizzie> It takes about a second or two of the Perl script to generate a sentence, so this sampling will take a moment.
06:44:35 <ais523> that reminds me of a really awful pun I heard a while back
06:44:52 <ais523> basically, the idea is that there was a pun competition
06:45:07 <ais523> and ten finalists submitted puns that they thought were really bad, and would beat the current record pun
06:47:04 <fizzie> Very intermediate results: http://pastebin.com/m39b468be
06:47:53 <fizzie> Notably, the Perl script might not perfectly correspond to what the bot itself does. (Especially if the bot has gone self-aware.)
06:48:02 <oklopol> hehe, i started reading those as a list of things you can address someone ass
06:48:21 <ais523> oklopol: they mostly are, if you think about it
06:48:34 <oklopol> mr president and madam president work
06:48:36 <ais523> "ladies and", for instance
06:48:50 <ais523> is "ladies and gentlemen" almost certainly
06:49:12 <ais523> AnMaster: somehow, you being unable to spot the pun is funnier than the actual pun
06:49:30 <AnMaster> ais523, can you please point it out
06:49:56 <fizzie> ais523: That one instance actually goes: "ladies and gentlemen, mrs neyts-uyttebroeck, ladies and gentlemen, poverty in the european convention."
06:50:17 <ais523> fizzie: that's fungot output? or the original?
06:50:21 <fungot> ais523: mr president, i have always welcomed his proposals in this house we would disagree, but on the form such compromises could take. i ask for your support and i thank the rapporteur mrs giannakou-koutsikou, but also the new media will completely replace the old regulation just in time, would be very similar. this will always be positive and i speak to you not as a member of the same group, included the republic of lithuani
06:50:30 <fizzie> ais523: Fungot output, sorry.
06:50:46 <oklopol> AnMaster: point is the last sentence doesn't really work except as a pun
06:51:00 <AnMaster> oklopol, well yes the grammar is wrong
06:51:03 <ais523> oklopol: I think AnMaster hasn't seen the pun at all yet
06:51:11 <ais523> the grammar isn't quite wrong, but it is rather tortured
06:51:16 <AnMaster> I know what line it should be in
06:51:16 <ais523> which is a clue that it's a punchline
06:51:17 <oklopol> i'm just telling him where it is.
06:51:27 <AnMaster> but I'm unable to spot it. I even read it aloud
06:51:42 <oklopol> and indeed the grammar isn't really wrong, it's just a really weird way to reference the puns
06:51:53 <fizzie> First 103 samples: http://pastebin.com/m34f18f81
06:52:24 <oklopol> addressing someone as "the problem" might not be very polite
06:52:31 <ais523> well, "no pun intended" is a standard phrase
06:52:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, why is the perl script so slow?
06:52:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, even fungot seems faster
06:52:49 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, we must emphasise civilian missions, in which respect for the state to protect citizens against serious crimes, including terrorism, if those conditions are met, production methods could be used to raise funds. i am opposed to short-term growth and in favour of the well-prepared report by my friend and fellow member, mr berenguer fuster is: should mobile telephone suppliers not be treated less favourably
06:52:59 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, well, everyone who's serious about performance uses Funge-98 nowadays.
06:54:00 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, our rapporteurs have centred their considerations both on the part of my portfolio but more particularly because an accurate analysis of the many obstacles we have experienced many times in this house, not to be the only indicator used. we need to adopt them, because those of us who live in europe, despite the pledges of financial support for their survival.
06:54:07 <AnMaster> fungot, you are usually faster IME
06:54:08 <fungot> AnMaster: we are unfortunately witnessing the phenomenon of the new powers, but this time on the impact of the introduction of coins and notes. it seems that it is only transitional, and this change has taken and which has undergone one civil war and human rights.
06:54:19 <fizzie> The Perl script is more clever when it comes to punctuation (maintains a stack of things that need be closed), but I doubt that's a major contribution.
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06:55:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, " 1 commission. (de)"?
06:56:12 <fizzie> Probably a preprocessing problem somewhere.
06:56:17 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, that the way forward in this matter is still being discussed. i doubt whether anyone here would support it. finally on foreign policy and in the green paper expressly states and that the establishment of a european tourist agency necessary from every point of view, i am extremely disappointed to see that there is no monitoring, or at first reading between what is state aid which is not fully functioning,
06:57:02 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
06:57:04 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
06:57:14 <fizzie> The sword alone can't stop!
06:57:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, I was waiting for that comment
06:57:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, however you need to highlight it
06:57:59 <fizzie> fungot: Can the sword alone stop?
06:57:59 <fungot> fizzie: you are strong of will...! that's the pendant the gurus and miss you. you may use that " rainbow shell? can eat much!
06:58:11 <fungot> AnMaster: we are looking to achieve a shorter life span... lavos will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place...
06:58:26 <ais523> that's the second time fungot's done "we are looking to achieve a shorter life span"
06:58:41 <fizzie> AnMaster: That's what Gaspar says if you try to use the bucket in End of Time.
06:58:45 <ais523> we flagged it as unusual the first time and discussed it for a while
06:58:51 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
06:59:01 <ais523> fungot: see if you can make the comments more intelligible than they were before, it shouldn't be hard
06:59:02 <fungot> ais523: then he said it looks absolutely nothing like this. jealousy? ( i can't wait for this plane 3 of the airfield, such as ' the tv is talking about.
06:59:08 <fizzie> AnMaster: "Only go there if you're looking to achieve a shorter life span... Lavos will help you to leave this mortal coil." Or something like that, I don't have the text here.
06:59:50 <ais523> fungot: again again! again again!
06:59:50 <fungot> ais523: since 1988, air france 296
07:00:27 <fizzie> OLD MAN: That Gate leads to 1999 A.D... It leads to the "Day of Lavos"... Go there only if you're looking to achieve a shorter life span... Lavos will help you leave this mortal coil.
07:00:55 <fizzie> That wasn't so far off.
07:03:07 <ais523> fungot's so fun to talk to
07:03:08 <fungot> ais523: please check your facts before spouting off their mouths. air france entry on wikipedia for all!
07:03:14 <fizzie> Well, out of a sample of N=239, 64.0 % start with "mr president,", 12.1 % with "madam president," and the highest single other possibilities are around 1.3 %.
07:05:14 <fungot> oerjan: when they threw the guy who wrote the game, but it was
07:05:34 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
07:05:37 <fizzie> This style seems prone of stopping in the middle of something.
07:05:40 <fungot> AnMaster: lord mcsweeney nodded. ' take it, please.'
07:06:04 <fungot> AnMaster: the sky was full of little fnord, forested country of lancre.
07:06:31 <AnMaster> fungot, I thought lancre was mainly mountainous?
07:06:32 <fungot> AnMaster: a wave submerged brutha. for a while. the audience watched in fascinated silence. quarney nodded mutely.
07:06:51 <ais523> AnMaster: it has lots of forests too, presumably they're on the mountains
07:07:24 <fizzie> And lots of little fnords.
07:07:52 <oerjan> mountains, sky, close enough
07:09:54 <fizzie> Ooh, "mr president-in-office" is also one way to start.
07:10:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, you should add hitchhikers guide to the galaxy in there
07:11:00 <fizzie> Didn't I try? I thought I tried. Maybe I didn't.
07:11:42 <fizzie> I think I was a bit bored of books at that point. They all sound more or less the same, except of course not at all.
07:11:52 * AnMaster notes it is rather unusual to hold two concurrent conversations with one person in real life. Yet it happens all the time on irc
07:12:09 <fizzie> 4 instances in ~300 or so.
07:12:22 <ais523> AnMaster: no, but often enough that I notice
07:13:06 <ais523> mostly I do it with ehird, or did
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07:13:36 <AnMaster> ais523, I wonder when he will tell what the issue is
07:13:37 <fizzie> "unfortunately, this decision has to be developed without at the same time, so it will be hard to be sure of that, it will be difficult." The form of politics-speak, the bot does grok it.
07:14:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, it sounds incoherent certainly
07:15:02 <fizzie> "there is no shortage of those in many member states of the union to have a greater proportion of elderly people who are treated with suspicion. this must not be the reasons that i have worked a lot with this."
07:15:15 <fizzie> Well, it's good that we're not short of elderly people to treat with suspicion.
07:15:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, especially since it results in lots of work for politicians it seems
07:17:11 <fizzie> Haha. "i support a strong political message to european citizens, who are often harmed by them."'
07:17:28 <fizzie> An honest politician, how refreshing.
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08:34:54 <fizzie> http://pastebin.com/m6f85b8d for the whole set of 1000. So around 60.7 % chance, according to this particular test.
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08:59:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, what percentage of the source data sentences start with "mr president"?
09:02:05 <fizzie> Left work already, in a bus now.
09:02:30 <fizzie> It *should* be a very similar percentage.
09:04:52 <fizzie> I may not have used the full europarl corpus for the training, though.
09:05:09 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from fizzie: 2.22 second(s)
09:05:26 <AnMaster> you are aware of that you are marked away?
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09:13:36 <ais523> AnMaster: heh, your tab-complete has got screwed up
09:13:49 <ais523> luckily that's unlikely to hurt me, as I rarely need to tab-complete my /own/ name...
09:14:01 <ais523> although, it's weird to not be first in alphabetical order
09:14:08 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact I highlight last spoken
09:14:14 <AnMaster> so not an issue once you spoke
09:14:25 <AnMaster> assuming this AirCastle doesn't speak after you
09:14:35 -!- ais523 has changed nick to CallForJudgement.
09:14:56 <AnMaster> CallForJudgement, now my nick column is too wide
09:15:21 <AnMaster> CallForJudgement, seems so completely not you
09:15:23 <CallForJudgement> [17:10] [Notice] -NickServ- Information on callforjudgement (account ais523):
09:15:24 <CallForJudgement> [17:10] [Notice] -NickServ- Registered : Aug 26 13:16:53 2009 (15 weeks, 2 days, 03:53:37 ago)
09:16:02 <CallForJudgement> anyway, with this nick I can sit here sorting out arguments via deus ex machina
09:17:06 <AnMaster> CallForJudgement, I think 1064 happened once
09:18:29 <AnMaster> CallForJudgement = sqrt(-ais523)
09:30:47 <fizzie> I almost tab-AirCastled earlier today.
09:35:56 <fizzie> Out of 63045 comments of the Europarl data, 28954 match "grep -i '^mr president'".
09:36:22 <fizzie> That's significantly less than 60 %, but on the other hand I don't really remember at this point what my training set was.
09:42:42 <fizzie> Oh, there's quite a pile of whitespace, too. The bit more robust '^[^a-z]*mr president' is matched by 34372 lines.
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10:09:07 <poiuy_qwert> yay, on my way to making my IRC bot in an esoteric language!
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11:19:09 <AnMaster> funny opposite of typo: I read "google fu trends"
11:38:18 <AnMaster> CallForJudgement, nice order url: https://www.bokus.com/cgi-bin/labyrinth.cgi
11:39:06 <AnMaster> labyrinth.cgi well yeah, their order system is in fact unusually easy to navigate
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12:26:39 <uorygl> The first part of a Haskell expression: ["ais523","ais569","ais661","ais707","ais753","ais799","ais891","ais937","ais983","ais29","ais121","ais167","ais213","ais259","ais351","ais397","ais443","ais489","ais581","ais627","ais673","ais719"
12:26:47 <uorygl> Continue the sequence.
12:27:14 <uorygl> Note that there is indisputably only one way to continue that sequence that makes sense.
12:28:19 <pikhq> Adding an infinite number of []s to the list also makes sense.
12:28:49 <uorygl> Yes, but it doesn't make nearly as much sense.
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12:32:17 <pikhq> "checking whether to build shared libraries... no\nchecking whether to build shared libraries... yes"
12:34:19 <fizzie> You will end up with some sort of schroedi-libs that are and are not built at the same time.
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13:37:22 <ehirdiphone> "One thing's for sure: until you have a backup strategy of some kind, you're screwed, you just don't know it yet. If backing up your data sounds like a hassle, that's because it is. Shut up. I know things. You will listen to me. Do it anyway." —Coding Horror
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13:37:44 <CallForJudgement> wait, did ehird come in here just to give us a Coding Horror quote?
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13:38:09 <ehirdiphone> "Coding Horror experienced 100% data loss at our hosting provider, CrystalTech."
13:38:16 <CallForJudgement> (and I did a complete (full for some things, incremental for others, but complete combined with previous backups) backup yesterday
13:39:05 <CallForJudgement> I have (very recent) backups on a USB stick, (also very recent) backups on the same drive that they're backing up (insurance against accidental rms)
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13:40:34 <CallForJudgement> e.g. when you copy data from one computer to another, do you always delete the original?
13:40:56 <ehirdiphone> Never lost anything apart from some ripped music. Easy to rip again.
13:41:55 <FireFly> I wonder what computational class brainfuck with only >, but with bounded memory and an extra instruction to add one memory slot to the memory would have
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13:42:07 <CallForJudgement> as in, a power cut will cause the entire file to always be on either one computer, or the other
13:42:08 <FireFly> Where the memory would wrap when it reaches the end
13:42:34 <ehirdiphone> FireFly: Minimax did that iirc ask CallForJudgement
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13:43:14 <FireFly> Well, it's still interesting
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13:43:30 <CallForJudgement> although, clearly what FireFly says is TC, because you can compile arbitrary coprime DownRight programs into it
13:43:44 <CallForJudgement> also, DownRight is an esolang that is not vaporware, just I haven't put it on the wiki yet
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13:44:30 <CallForJudgement> and the name was obsolete really quickly because it really doesn't matter if you can move up and left too
13:44:35 <FireFly> But you plan writing something on the wiki about it?
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13:45:05 <FireFly> Sounds similar to what I described, but 2D-ish
13:45:07 <CallForJudgement> part of the issue is that it's rather close to Bitwise Cyclic Tag, in that it trivially round-trips
13:47:49 <CallForJudgement> you can come up with a few variants of it, one of which I think but don't know is sub-TC
13:48:27 <CallForJudgement> and another one is clearly also TC, but feels sort-of super-TC in that I can't figure out any way to compile existing programs into it while using all the features
13:49:20 <FireFly> First I thought you referred to a certain computational class
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14:51:56 <ais523> well, I've been working entirely mentally on a new esolang
14:52:23 <ais523> ah, I didn't realise you were here for that
14:52:34 <ais523> basically, its source is a 2d matrix of string fragments
14:52:45 <ais523> each of which is a possibly empty list made out of "down" and "right"
14:53:03 <ais523> the matrix is effectively toroidal (bottom goes to top, right, goes to left)
14:53:11 <ehirdiphone> Oh, and to answer a question penned by AnMaster yesterday: Yudkowsky is one of the forefront singularitarians and rationalists.
14:53:20 <ais523> basically, there's a queue, and the contents of the current square get added to the end of the queue
14:53:43 <ais523> you can add I/O in a pretty simple way, but it's nice and pure without it
14:54:08 <ais523> I've already mentally proved it TC, in three different ways
14:54:16 <ais523> (simulating tag, simulating cyclic tag, simulating a Minsky machine)
14:55:34 <ais523> the matrix itself loops round from bottom to top, and from right to left
14:55:49 <ais523> now, what interests me is that all the ways I can thing of to program in involve using one dimension as data, and another as code
14:56:03 <ais523> they don't have to be top-to-bottom and left-to-right, you could use, say, diagonals
14:56:31 <ais523> but the basic distinguishing feature is, that if you allowed up and left movement too
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14:56:44 <ais523> you could design it so that the code never needed to wrap
14:56:47 <ais523> but the data would still need to wrap
14:57:07 <ais523> (I haven't managed to prove, but strongly suspect, that non-wrapping UpLeftDownRight is sub-TC)
14:58:06 <ais523> anyway, take that Qdecl
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14:59:02 <fizzien900> (Sorry, just had to because of the ehirdiphone name.)
14:59:38 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if Qdeql is in fact TC despite the non-TCness argument on the wiki?
15:00:11 <ais523> arguably, the same argument proves DownRight sub-TC, except I know it's TC
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15:01:15 <coppro> I'd argue, except you seem to be one of the more knowledgeable people on this planet when it comes to TCness
15:01:25 <ais523> gah, I have to try to compile coprime DownRight into Qdeql here and see where it stops
15:01:36 <ais523> coppro: I'm not sure if the argument there's right or not
15:01:44 <ais523> it isn't obviously wrong, but it isn't obviously right either
15:02:18 <fizzien900> ehirdiphone_: Look, I have a phone-designator too.
15:04:25 <ais523> issue, mostly, is that Qdeql's flow control is really really nasty
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15:06:16 <ais523> oh, also that there's no way to delete anything from the queue
15:06:29 <ais523> except writing it to stdout
15:06:43 <ais523> hmm... assuming that we can get rid of useless data by throwing it to stdout, what happens?
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15:08:56 <ais523> ok, next issue is getting the data we need /in/ from stdin...
15:09:06 <ais523> well, not necessarily stdin
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15:09:49 <coppro> just write data to stdin
15:10:32 <ais523> I mean, even if we had a definite 10101010101010101010 in stdin, it would be hard to determine which to put there, as you can't skip stdin elements
15:10:36 <ais523> they all have to be enqueued somewhere
15:10:41 <ais523> and you can't dequeue them immediately
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15:25:46 <fizzien900> A conversation: http://pastebin.com/m1c481645
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22:15:42 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Oh, and to answer a question penned by AnMaster yesterday: Yudkowsky is one of the forefront singularitarians and rationalists. <-- well yes I know. Still doesn't explain why he has been mentioned a lot recently. For example: Why then has not Knuth been mentioned as much?
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22:18:05 <AnMaster> fizzien900 <-- I read that as fizzien 900 rather than fizzie n900 first. I quite like the sound of "fizzien"
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23:49:24 <uorygl> AnMaster: I think I mentioned his name because I vaguely remembered ehird saying something offensive about him.
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01:13:03 <coppro> AnMaster: Partway throu
01:13:09 <coppro> *through Unseen Academicals now
01:13:10 <AnMaster> coppro, when you said that however I was away getting a haircut
01:13:44 <coppro> book is thoroughly awesome
01:13:55 <coppro> AnMaster: I'm Sorry I Haven't A CLue
01:14:09 * AnMaster tries to locate context of that
01:14:39 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Sorry_I_Haven%27t_a_Clue
01:14:50 <AnMaster> coppro, as in "why did you mentioned it"
01:15:00 <coppro> oh, because I was listening to it
01:15:23 <coppro> I think that was right around when "Milk, milk, lemonade" was concluded with "Triple vodka, you get laid."
01:15:25 <AnMaster> coppro, conclusion: you live in UK?
01:15:38 <coppro> there's this neat thing called the Internet
01:15:57 <coppro> Hmm... was I going for 'yep' or 'yeah' there?
01:17:18 <AnMaster> you think I have an answer to that?
01:17:34 <coppro> anyways, I'm not 100% on what the big change in UA to which you were referring is
01:17:45 <coppro> though I have a guess, and it involves a capitalized pronoun
01:18:02 <coppro> my runner-up involves an empty chair
01:18:03 <AnMaster> coppro, huh? It should be clear really early on
01:18:24 <coppro> ok... it's a change, but it didn't seem earth-shattering to me
01:18:38 <coppro> plus, we got Doctor Hix.
01:18:46 <AnMaster> coppro, he showed up in an earlier book
01:19:00 <coppro> yeah, but he wasn't nearly as important
01:19:10 <coppro> "Your unappreciated comments are appreciated."
01:20:10 <coppro> and it's not like the DoPMC is new... I think it was referenced at least as far back as... uh... whichever one they had to talk to the dead guy in
01:20:26 * coppro tries to remember what book that was
01:21:51 <coppro> Guards! Guards!, maybe?
01:22:28 <coppro> AnMaster: an old wizard
01:22:33 <coppro> who's kept in a bottle, IIRC
01:22:38 <AnMaster> coppro, wasn't that making money?
01:23:13 <coppro> I don't think so though, because I'd probably remember it better if it was a recent one
01:23:44 <coppro> hmm... according to the wiki, it was only Making Money. Huh.
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03:27:29 <fizzie> AnMaster: "fizzien" would be the Finnish genetive case; the same as English "fizzie's" would be.
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03:29:36 <oklopol> fizzing each other like crazy
03:43:10 <fizzie> Okay, so it could also be some other cases; like the active instructive second infinitive of a verb ("by means of" / "while in the act of" -- like fi:juosta = to run, fi:liikkua = to move, fi:"liikkua juosten" => "to move by running"), instead of the genetive case of a noun. That was just what I judged most likely.
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03:45:32 <fizzie> Or just the accusative of the noun "fizzie"; "I bought a fizzie" => "ostin fizzien".
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03:48:21 <fizzie> I probably should disconnect that thing, it'll drop when I get off the wlan soon anyway.
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03:52:05 <fizzien900> At least I doubt it would seamlessly transition from my private wlan to 3G, given that the IP changes and all.
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04:38:13 <fizzie> Heh, the guy next to me in the train has a N900 too. :p
04:40:32 <fizzie> Oh, should get off the train too and not just play with the toy. ->
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06:55:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, hi there. I was away. Thus I didn't notice you join
06:56:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, remind me which theme it was?
07:10:08 <AnMaster> hrrm this issue makes no sense
07:10:27 <oerjan> this sense makes no issue
07:10:30 <AnMaster> either gcc is mishanding volatile or I'm doing something incorrect.
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09:31:25 <fizzie> AnMaster: Not that this is so interesting, but I put some pictures taken with the new phone into http://zem.fi/g2/v/Mobile/20091212/ -- it's not too shabby, but the full-size images show pretty clearly that it is definitely not a real camera.
09:32:53 <fizzie> (The automatic image-sharing/upload tools are nice, though. Except that I forgot to change the default, and therefore it ripped out the GPS location exif tags from those images. Oh well.)
09:34:04 <uorygl> Oh, it's a Uralic language.
09:37:51 * uorygl reads about Dutch instead.
09:38:51 <fizzie> Is this what they call a diss?
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09:40:23 <Gregor> So long as you're reading about germanic languages, just read about English.
09:42:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, that gallery is quite broken
09:42:33 <AnMaster> the images on the main page are stretched
09:43:10 <AnMaster> wait, it looks like they are slightly stretched and somewhat cropped
09:48:38 <fizzie> AnMaster: Try reloading.
09:48:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: It seems to get confused generating the rescaled images sometimes. They looked just fine when I browsed through it.
09:51:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, definitely cropped now
09:52:12 <fizzie> Yes, well, that they are.
09:52:21 <fizzie> That's what it's supposed to do.
09:52:33 <fizzie> Well, for the thumbnails, that is.
09:54:00 <AnMaster> batch command experienced an execution error
10:01:04 <fizzie> Incidentally, we visited the cafe on that there island, and it was about closing time, and there was beginning some sort of private event; when going out, I sneaked a peek through the door, and someone had set up a projector, and on the first slide of the PowerPoint (or some-such) presentation the title was "42" and the subtitle was "The Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything".
10:01:17 <fizzie> Made me very curious as to what sort of an event it was.
10:01:44 <fizzie> There was also present a Finnish sort-of celebrity you probably don't know.
10:02:14 <fizzie> Uunisaari, the place those photos I linked to (about 20 comments ago) were taken.
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10:22:49 <uorygl> Gregor: but I already know a lot about English.
10:25:02 <uorygl> Declension: -s. Conjugation: -s -ing -ed.
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10:28:55 <uorygl> I think I considered Swedish once.
10:29:23 <Gregor> Then he concluded that he's not a pirate yargh.
10:30:16 <uorygl> Well, I haven't attempted to learn it.
10:30:39 <AnMaster> but maybe that is because I'm Swedish.
10:30:43 <uorygl> It has a lot of y-like vowels.
10:30:57 <AnMaster> uorygl, is that y like in English y?
10:31:31 <uorygl> And by y, I mean [y], like in the Swedish word "syl".
10:31:54 <AnMaster> uorygl, What other vowels would be similar in your opinion?
10:32:58 <uorygl> [ø], like "nöt", and [ʏ], like "syll".
10:33:07 <AnMaster> err ö and y are very different
10:33:23 <AnMaster> but ö is very very very different
10:33:51 <AnMaster> uorygl, completely different sound for ö and y
10:34:34 <uorygl> How different would you say the sounds in the English words "dress" and "lot" are?
10:35:07 <uorygl> ...hmm, I wonder if I'm just asking this as an excuse to feel elite.
10:35:21 <AnMaster> uorygl, very different at least. They are certainly closer than the vowels in "dress" and "say" though
10:35:55 <uorygl> It would help, of course, if I actually heard Swedish spoken.
10:36:03 <AnMaster> uorygl, don't have a microphone
10:36:12 <AnMaster> well, I have one, but it isn't working
10:36:26 <uorygl> Perhaps I shouldn't worry about the pronunciation for now, since I don't plan on actually speaking it any time soon.
10:36:28 <AnMaster> uorygl, there are Swedish news broadcasts from the public service radio on their website
10:37:04 <AnMaster> uorygl, the difference between "anden" and "anden" is much funnier though
10:37:26 <AnMaster> uorygl, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology#Stress_and_pitch
10:37:33 <Gregor> 'Say' shares a vowel with 'dress', although it is then proceeded by a different one.
10:38:02 <uorygl> Gregor: not in broad transcriptions.
10:38:11 <Gregor> The long 'a' sound is a short 'e' (eh) followed by a long 'e' (ee)
10:38:12 <AnMaster> Gregor, that's one STRANGE dialect
10:38:39 <Gregor> I'm assuming Gerneal American :P
10:38:44 <Gregor> For the reason that I speak it :P
10:38:49 <AnMaster> Gregor, which I have no clue how to speak
10:38:49 <Deewiant> uorygl: Yes, I'd say that /dɹɛs/ and /lɒt/ are about as different as one-syllable words can be :-P
10:39:26 <coppro> I'd say "dress" and "boot" are more different
10:39:32 <uorygl> Deewiant: are you sure it's not /lat/?
10:39:49 <AnMaster> coppro, how are you measuring the difference
10:39:59 <uorygl> Anyway, the vowels that are farthest apart on the vowel chart are /i/ and /ɒ/
10:40:25 <Deewiant> uorygl: Yes, I'd say /lat/ is very different.
10:40:28 <uorygl> Roughly the vowels in "Eeyore".
10:40:50 <Deewiant> uorygl: Hell, "hot" is even an example on Wikipedia's ɒ page ;-)
10:40:51 <AnMaster> uorygl, what the hell does "Eeyore" mean? And how is it pronounced?
10:40:57 <uorygl> Yeah, my accent doesn't distinguish between /a/ and /ɒ/.
10:41:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Maybe you know of I-or
10:41:11 <uorygl> AnMaster: Eeyore is the name of a character in the Winnie the Pooh franchise.
10:41:30 <coppro> and EEOR is a mountain
10:41:31 <AnMaster> uorygl, is that the English spelling?
10:41:38 <coppro> or part of one, to be exact
10:41:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually it is "Ior" in Swedish iirc
10:42:02 <uorygl> It's pronounced /iːɔr/ or something.
10:42:45 * AnMaster tries to locate the book and gives up
10:45:03 * uorygl plays measures 26 through 29 of Opus 11.
10:45:50 <AnMaster> Gregor, didn't you make extra-www?
10:45:51 <Gregor> Hm, is uorygl actually Warrigal?
10:46:05 <AnMaster> Gregor, why is codu not redirecting to www.www.codu.org?
10:46:16 <AnMaster> * [uorygl] (n=warrie@lunch.normish.org): Tanner Swett
10:46:33 <Gregor> Just because I made www.www.extra-www.org doesn't mean I think it's a good idea :P
10:47:05 <AnMaster> Gregor, most things gets funnier by taking it seriously
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10:47:11 <AnMaster> this is definitely such a case
10:47:49 <AnMaster> Checking www.www.codu.org ... does not redirect
10:47:49 <AnMaster> Warning: socket_read() [function.socket-read]: unable to read from socket [104]: Connection reset by peer in /var/www/extra-www/validator.php on line 83
10:47:49 <AnMaster> Checking www.codu.org ... redirects to /WfXZN/
10:47:59 <uorygl> AnMaster: what stuff would it explain?
10:48:23 <Gregor> I guess I'll have to check that some time.
10:48:43 <AnMaster> Gregor, to vague. Try again for the time spec
10:49:45 <uorygl> Neat, no-www.org mentions extra-www.org.
10:51:04 <Gregor> I just love that yes-www.org is gone but extra-www.org is still alive :P
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10:54:48 <AnMaster> why? becuase why not overdo any assignment you get at university (this was supposed to be introduction to graphical programming)
10:55:14 <AnMaster> oh and they are antialiased, use double buffering, and alpha channel to make the balls show up easily even when on top of each other
10:56:04 <AnMaster> alas, I couldn't get page flipping to work :/
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11:04:45 <uorygl> I wanted to overdo my university assignments, but I ended up not doing them at all.
11:05:10 <uorygl> Thus, quoth my professor: "You could be getting an A in this class, and I don't know whether you're getting a C or a D."
11:06:29 <uorygl> What's stupid--me, my behavior, the professor, what the professor said, the professor's not knowing, or the system?
11:06:52 <AnMaster> uorygl, your behaviour if you were capable of better
11:08:00 * AnMaster watches the nice effects of drawing something very fast moving (balls speeding up too much between static paddles)
11:12:08 <uorygl> You should produce motion blur using a low-pass filter.
11:12:45 <uorygl> Make sure it's a theoretically perfect one.
11:14:12 <AnMaster> uorygl, well the speeds I was hitting was making the LCD show several balls at once
11:14:25 <AnMaster> uorygl, also just get a crappy enough lcd and you will get something similar
11:14:41 <AnMaster> my laptop certainly shows something similar
11:14:43 <uorygl> Right, that's why you use motion blur instead.
11:14:58 <AnMaster> uorygl, oh and I'm using allegro. That is what the assignment was about
11:15:08 <AnMaster> I suspect it will be highly non-trivial in that
11:15:29 <uorygl> Ah. You'll need to extend Allegro to support motion blur. :-P
11:15:51 <AnMaster> uorygl, ever coded with allegro? It is so portable it still supports DOS.
11:16:05 <AnMaster> and various weird colour formats
11:16:48 <AnMaster> uorygl, in fact it's docs suggests "truecolor pixel formats" is something non-standard
11:16:53 <AnMaster> oh and yes it is actively developed
11:17:13 <AnMaster> still it is rather easy to use
11:18:17 <AnMaster> uorygl, in fact allegro doesn't even support antialias in the current stable version. The development version which uses opengl as a backend does however.
11:18:55 <AnMaster> uorygl, So for antialiased balls in pong, I'm using a sprite created in gimp and saved as tga
11:19:06 <AnMaster> no it doesn't support loading png
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11:32:20 <coppro> Does anyone know a service that will run authoritative nameservers for a domain for cheap/free?
11:35:02 <Rembane> Maybe not the authoritative part... I dunno.. hang on, like to come!
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11:35:21 <coppro> I need a service that will run authoritative servers
11:35:35 <Rembane> http://code.google.com/intl/sv-SE/speed/public-dns/
11:35:52 <coppro> http://code.google.com/intl/sv-SE/speed/public-dns/faq.html#hosting
11:44:08 -!- kar8nga has joined.
11:50:22 <Gregor> There's freedns.afraid.org
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11:57:44 <AnMaster> coppro, run bind on your own server
11:57:56 <coppro> AnMaster: I need a server with 100% uptime
11:57:58 <AnMaster> also many places you buy domains from provide dns server for you
11:58:04 <coppro> or as close to it as possible
11:58:10 <AnMaster> coppro, forget freedns.afraid.org then
11:58:16 <AnMaster> I had uptime issues with them before
11:58:45 <coppro> it's one of the requirements for registering the domain; you have to make sure that there are two nameservers that remain up
11:59:20 <AnMaster> try another registrar that provides dns servers
11:59:37 <coppro> .ro only has one registrar
12:00:10 <coppro> the registration policy is wonderful. One-time fee.
12:00:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the thought *did* cross my mind
12:01:04 <AnMaster> but I wasn't sure what language that was
12:01:23 <Asztal> .al only allows registering .com.al, etc. :(
12:01:38 * AnMaster wonders what country (if any) .er is
12:01:51 <AnMaster> Asztal, you could change your nick to Aszcomal?
12:02:40 <coppro> they do reserve the right to start charging an annual fee though
12:04:28 <AnMaster> btw, once the assignment is sent in and such I will probably put that pong game up somewhere. I guess I could offer a binary for 64-bit linux now if anyone is interested.
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12:08:37 <fizzie> This is the late, but there are at least several that can do the hidden-primary-DNS setup: their servers work technically as secondaries, with zone transfers from your primary, but you only put the secondaries into the TLD registry, so that it doesn't matter if your primary server is up only randomly.
12:09:55 <fizzie> I think everydns.net does free primary too.
12:10:12 -!- coppro has joined.
12:10:38 <AnMaster> coppro, fizzie had the solution to your DNS issue above
12:10:49 <fizzie> <fizzie> This is the late, but there are at least several that can do the hidden-primary-DNS setup: their servers work technically as secondaries, with zone transfers from your primary, but you only put the secondaries into the TLD registry, so that it doesn't matter if your primary server is up only randomly.
12:10:49 <fizzie> <fizzie> I think everydns.net does free primary too.
12:10:50 <AnMaster> <coppro> | . <-- what was that about
12:11:13 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMno3Zg/pong.tar.gz if anyone cares. Needs liballegro.so.4.2
12:11:22 * coppro is confused by what fizzie said
12:11:59 <AnMaster> oh and it seems I included the xcf for those tga. Not that that matters.
12:12:36 <AnMaster> just 16 K instead of uh .... 16 K ‽‽‽
12:13:23 <fizzie> Well, what it boils down to, assuming you don't want to run a DNS server at all, is that everydns.net is one provider that does completely free "full" DNS. (I have no idea how freely their DNS zone editor allows you to do things, though.)
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12:16:51 <fizzie> And at least based on the nic.ro site, it looks as if one can only register .ro domains in the .co.ro, .ne.ro and .or.ro "top-level" subdomains, but what-the-ever.
12:17:33 <fizzie> Maybe they're just confusing, given how many plain .ro domains there seem to be.
12:17:36 <AnMaster> (if anyone tries that pong, please do mention it)
12:19:16 <fizzie> Yes, I guess rotld.ro is the new page and that's just some old relic. Funny, usually "nic.tld" tends to give at least something sensible.
12:19:43 <fizzie> (Though now that I look, seems that a completely arbitrary Finnish ISP has gone and registered nic.fi, so...)
12:21:15 <fizzie> .fi has a similar "you must have at least two nameservers online or you might lose the domain" condition, with automatical sanity checks, but they do give you lots of time to correct any problems. (And you have to live in Finland too, unlike .ro.)
12:32:37 <AnMaster> btw it seems like ompload urls are hashes, I uploaded the same file twice by mistake and got the same url back
12:36:29 <AnMaster> okay new url. And I would actually be interested in what people think about playability of http://omploader.org/vMno3cg/pong.tar.gz since it has two balls in play
12:36:38 <AnMaster> meant for two physical players at the computer btw
12:38:03 <AnMaster> oh and it is quite fun for a single player too, trying to keep both balls in the air at once
12:38:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, give me a C99 compiler for windows that works
12:38:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I thought you were on linux
12:39:23 <Deewiant> Your memory can't tell you what OS I'm in on a certain date at a certain time
12:39:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about you? 64-bit linux or not?
12:39:41 <fizzie> 64-bit linux, but I don't run untrusted binaries. :p
12:39:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah that is what you think. hehehe
12:39:56 <Deewiant> I don't feel like rebooting into Linux now so you'd need to hand me a Windows binary.
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12:40:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't have any windows compiling environment set up
12:40:27 <AnMaster> so by the time I had that in vitualbox you would already be on linux
12:40:30 <fizzie> Also there is only one of me, and I can't play pong against myself.
12:40:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh I found it fun to try to keep both balls in air at once
12:40:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, but I'd lose!
12:41:04 <AnMaster> also the keys are up/down and w/s
12:41:23 <AnMaster> as it says in the readme in the updated version
12:41:24 <Deewiant> fizzie: Only if you can defeat yourself
12:41:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, single player variant: try to keep both scores as low as possible
12:41:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Inconvenient on non-qwerty.
12:42:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well okay I guess I could do up/down and left/right
12:42:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or I could make it configurable by command line parameter
12:42:32 <Deewiant> What I guess you could do is make it configurable
12:43:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, need to convert it to scan code for allegro however
12:44:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for untrusted binary. hm. you could disassemble it and check that it doesn't call syscall directly and then see with nm -D what library functions it calls
12:44:23 <AnMaster> assuming it doesn't self modify that is
12:44:30 <AnMaster> which you can see by it not calling mprotect
12:44:45 <fizzie> I don't have liballeg.so.4.2 anyway.
12:44:46 <Deewiant> dobelx64 doesn't call mprotect, but self-modifies :-P
12:45:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but you could look with readelf to see what it requests initially
12:45:20 <fizzie> Nah, still not interested. And I'm sure the liballeg.so.4.2 disassembly would be too long to read.
12:45:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway you install allegro
12:45:55 <fizzie> "Kunde inte byta till graifkäget"; at least I ran it through strings.
12:46:26 <AnMaster> fizzie oops forgot to translate that. it is error message from failing to set up window
12:47:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway you could just check my allegro library had same checksum as the ubuntu jaunty package one
12:48:10 <AnMaster> of course you just audited every line of disassembly ;P
12:48:25 <Deewiant> But does fizzie trust the Ubuntu packages? :-P
12:48:41 <fizzie> I only trust Deewiant. (You have to trust *someone*.)
12:48:44 <coppro> anyone know a good Marble Drop-like game that I can play on Linux (e.g. Flash or native or something)
12:48:55 <Deewiant> fizzie: Last I checked you didn't trust me enough to run CCBI
12:49:09 <AnMaster> okay then fizzie *is* paranoid
12:49:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, also there is throwaway account and chroot
12:49:38 <fizzie> I don't trust chroot. :p
12:49:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about virtualbox then
12:49:51 <Deewiant> fizzie: How do you use IRC? Browse the web?
12:50:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: I trust my browser but I don't trust my kernel. That is a bit silly.
12:50:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw. how long do you think downloading visual studio from msdnaa would take. Give or take a few years?
12:50:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Can't wine cross-compile using mingw?
12:51:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have no idea. And I never got mingw working even under windows so...
12:51:14 <AnMaster> well not for more than basic hello world
12:51:36 <fizzie> Mingw is just fine for Windows binary-making; I used it to build Windows binaries of our group project-work for the OpenGL course.
12:51:54 <coppro> clang should also be able to cross-compile with Winelib
12:51:54 <fizzie> Or "3d graphics programming course with a OpenGL focus", to be more exact.
12:51:56 <Deewiant> Apparently you don't even need wine
12:52:17 <coppro> you'd probably need Wine for any windows lib stuff
12:52:28 <AnMaster> is there a ready-made package for ubuntu for this?
12:52:37 <fizzie> Debian has it under the name "mingw32".
12:52:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Some link suggests that there is so for debian, at least
12:52:43 <fizzie> Don't know about Ubuntu.
12:53:00 <fizzie> "Freedom through obsolescence. Those who still really need to can now build windows executables from the comfort of Debian." (To quote the package description.)
12:54:14 <fizzie> At least here it uses the "i586-mingw32msvc-" prefix.
12:54:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about windows dll stuff
12:54:35 <Deewiant> Both mingw and msvc? What sense does that make?
12:54:39 <fizzie> So "i586-mingw32msvc-gcc -o blah.exe blah.c" for the minimal case.
12:54:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: It means the msvc runtime libs.
12:55:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you link to a .dll there
12:55:19 <AnMaster> and header files for it and such
12:55:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't remember how that works, sorry. The necessary bits for OpenGL were built-in, I think.
12:56:23 <Deewiant> If allegro distributes a ready-built .lib as they most likely do, you can probably just link to that
12:57:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: There might've been some conversion tool involved. At least the mingw32-runtime package libs have a .a extension.
12:57:13 <Deewiant> Ah right, of course mingw libs are .a
12:57:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster confused me with his .libness
12:57:35 <Deewiant> But anyway, it's quite likely that allegro distributes a mingw .a
12:57:55 <Deewiant> Although it's admittedly more likely that they distribute only a .lib
12:58:11 <fizzie> Oh yes, there is the tool.
12:58:31 <AnMaster> that looked like one line originallyt
12:58:36 <coppro> :( no one answered my Marble Drop question
12:59:12 <AnMaster> everything from dos, mingw to msvc 6 and msvc 9
12:59:29 <fizzie> I think you can use i586-mingw32msvc-dlltool to generate what you need for linking against a DLL, but not sure.
13:01:03 <fizzie> (Maybe. The main use case is to create DLLs.)
13:01:50 <fizzie> Well, that's useful, then.
13:02:32 <Deewiant> If they offer a mingw download then they will give everything you need.
13:02:38 <AnMaster> X Error of failed request: GLXBadDrawable
13:02:45 <AnMaster> and I wasn't even using opengl
13:05:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try http://omploader.org/vMno4MA/pong-win32.tar.gz
13:05:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doesn't work under wine giving opengl error
13:05:38 <AnMaster> I have no idea if it will work under real windows
13:07:40 <AnMaster> since you are on windows you clearly can't be scared of binaries
13:08:06 <Deewiant> I can, however, be AFK on occasion
13:09:10 <Deewiant> Even uses my keyboard's s key instead of my keyboard layout's.
13:09:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and the game itself? Works well?
13:09:48 <AnMaster> it is always hard for the creator to tlel
13:10:02 <AnMaster> after all I know exactly what it is supposed to do and exactly what I thought of testing
13:10:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does the circles show up as opaque or do they clearly have an alpha channel?
13:11:07 <AnMaster> (can be seen when they cross each other easily)
13:11:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and how is the actual game play
13:12:31 <AnMaster> because background doesn't pause it here
13:12:40 <Deewiant> May be an allegro quirk on windows.
13:12:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: Hey, since you're at it, do you want to test the Windows binaries of my game too?! It's just some two-three years late w.r.t. the returning of the project, but I'm sure it'd still be very useful to test. In some sort of hypothetical sense.
13:13:10 <Deewiant> Says Mr. I Don't Trust Foreign Binaries :-P
13:13:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh there seems to be a set_display_switch_mode I could call
13:14:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: One minor flaw: the circle needs to touch the edge, not fly off it, to score a point
13:15:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you mean? That the circle should be allowed to pass a bit outside before it scores a point?
13:15:12 <Deewiant> I think it should be fully outside
13:15:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm is that the original pong behaviour? I haven't been able to find pong in ubuntu repos nor in portage
13:16:09 <AnMaster> well, ubuntu had a 3D pong thing
13:16:23 <Deewiant> The original pong does the common trick of simply moving the paddles a bit inside the map instead of putting them at the very edge
13:17:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I do move them inside, by 5 pixels
13:17:19 <Deewiant> Yeah, I meant by at least the width of a circle :-)
13:17:20 <fizzie> Deewiant: Don't worry, I can't find the windows binary at all.
13:17:22 <AnMaster> so that is actually 15 pixels inside that it is checking
13:17:40 <Deewiant> In the original arcade pong it's more like 5 times the size of the ball
13:18:03 <Deewiant> See e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPkUvfL8T1I
13:18:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe half the size of it and allow it to pass half the way out
13:18:10 <fizzie> There seems to be a Makefile.win, though. I think it even includes an icon in the .exe.
13:18:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway hitting any place after half of it makes no sense (would only push it out further)
13:18:52 <AnMaster> so allowing it to pass exactly half of the paddle sounds like a good idea
13:19:16 <Deewiant> True, it has no gameplay value beyond that point
13:19:34 * AnMaster is downloading the video Deewiant linked to
13:19:52 <Deewiant> I just think it's prettier if it goes all the way instead of suddenly disappearing
13:20:14 <Deewiant> And I guess there might be some multiplayer amusement involved in having somebody hit the ball further in
13:21:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would require me to rewrite my very simple ball bouncing code
13:21:19 <AnMaster> which just checks where on the line that is the start of the paddle we hit
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13:21:47 <AnMaster> you could get some strange effects as of now if you allowed hitting after half had passed
13:22:31 <Deewiant> Just flip the sign of the x-velocity if it's past the paddle?
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13:23:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is very inellegantly played, why don't they just move to where the ball is
13:23:59 <AnMaster> coppro, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPkUvfL8T1I
13:24:16 <fizzie> i586-mingw32msvc-gcc -o ui.o ui.c -c -std=c99 -Wall -Werror -O2 -I.
13:24:16 <fizzie> cc1: warnings being treated as errors
13:24:16 <fizzie> ui.c:254: warning: C99 inline functions are not supported; using GNU89
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13:26:10 <AnMaster> meh it does allow some strange pushing
13:26:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I predicted placing them further in would break stuff. It did but not the way I expected
13:28:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: If you actually *do* want to try out another Windows binary (are you bored or something?), http://zem.fi/~fis/bleh.zip
13:29:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikan_t%C3%A4hti
13:32:00 <Deewiant> Hmm, this game is more complicated than the version I remember :-P
13:32:10 <fizzie> AnMaster: Eh, well, here's a very fast screenshot, but it's not really showing up its best side: http://zem.fi/~fis/bleh.png
13:32:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: Maybe not. Though the gemstones you find aren't too shabby, I seem to remember.
13:33:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: You can also rotate and zoom with the cursor keys, that might not be immediately obvious.
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13:33:20 <Deewiant> Yeah, I was just about to ask if I can get a more zoomed-out view somehow :-)
13:33:28 <fizzie> Deewiant: And there's a very realistic day/night cycle.
13:34:34 <Deewiant> I don't suppose I can change the camera pitch in any way?
13:34:55 <fizzie> I don't think so, no. But you can drag around the map with the left mouse button.
13:35:03 <fizzie> It'll snap back to the fixed position when you let go. :p
13:36:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well fixed those issues
13:36:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, and you can add a command line flag "-q 1" to get a lot nicer heightmap. :p
13:36:54 <Deewiant> fizzie: I forget the mechanics: what can player A do if B has the star?
13:37:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: You can try to find a horseshoe and take that to one of the starting points before B gets the star there.
13:37:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: In the sometimes-used house rules, you can also attack the other player, but that's highly nonstandard.
13:37:39 <Deewiant> Why isn't the nicer heightmap on by default
13:38:02 <fizzie> Deewiant: It wasn't fast enough on the school SGI O2 workstations this was demoed on. :p
13:39:10 <fizzie> I had totally forgotten that -q flag, I just found it from the project report now.
13:39:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, source link (or 64-bit linux binary)
13:39:31 <fizzie> The default is "-q 4" which uses every fourth point from the heightmap.
13:39:38 <Deewiant> Good luck playing it with all the text being in Finnish
13:40:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, didn't they use gettext()?
13:40:19 <Deewiant> Although there isn't that much text
13:40:24 <fizzie> Heh, right. There's not *that* much text, though; I can give you a translation.
13:40:28 <fizzie> It's not localized, no.
13:40:45 <AnMaster> translation would be nice yeah
13:40:45 <fizzie> Just using gettext wouldn't help much without, you know, the localizations.
13:41:43 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/bleh.tar.gz might be a 64-bit linux binary; it needs that "data" subdir and it needs to be accessible so that fopen("data/foo") works. There was a bit of a deadline problem to do anything nice.
13:42:35 <fizzie> On the positive side, you can edit the .obj files in the data subdir to provide all new models.
13:45:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, updated pong btw to fix those issues: http://omploader.org/vMno4OQ/pong-win32.tar.gz
13:45:24 <fizzie> The heightmap is bona fide real data, by the way. (The ground colors are not.)
13:47:25 <fizzie> "(Cannot contact the database server: Can't connect to MySQL server on '10.0.6.32' (4) (10.0.6.32))" I don't think I've gotten that from Wikipedia earlier.
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13:52:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, so what about translations + linux binary or source?
13:53:11 <AnMaster> ais523_unidentif, something wrong with your computer?
13:53:37 <AnMaster> ais523_unidentif, you have one at work iirc?
13:53:41 <AnMaster> ais523_unidentif, so get a new one
13:53:59 <AnMaster> ais523_unidentif, what about the centos box at work?
13:54:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: I already linked to a Linux binary. Let me see about translations.
13:54:23 <AnMaster> ais523_unidentif, I thought it dual-booted?
14:05:29 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/translate.txt has probably most of the strings in the game translated.
14:07:23 <fizzie> ais523_unidentif: Long story, are you sure you don't want to just check today's clog?
14:07:43 <ais523_unidentif> I'll check it later; not particularly easy for me to do so now
14:07:43 <fizzie> ais523_unidentif: We've been having Deewiant work as a test monkey for windows binaries.
14:08:38 <fizzie> To summarize: it's a OpenGL version of a Finnish board game I (partially) did for the 3d graphics programming course a couple of years back.
14:08:45 <fizzie> (In 2005, apparently.)
14:09:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, someone can get stuck at the Canary islands
14:10:15 <fizzie> AnMaster: That is a well-known bug.
14:10:17 <AnMaster> shouldn't you be allowed to move two spaces
14:10:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: That's just the heretical new rules.
14:10:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: We don't roll that way.
14:10:46 <Deewiant> Do you even lose the game for that player if he gets stuck? :-)
14:10:53 <AnMaster> NVIDIA: could not open the device file /dev/nvidiactl (Permission denied).
14:10:53 <AnMaster> freeglut (./afrikka): Unable to create direct context rendering for window 'Afrikan t�hti'
14:11:32 <fizzie> Deewiant: I'm not sure. There's a "the game is now unwinnable" message in the sources.
14:11:55 <Deewiant> That happens if the star is there, so at least you check for that much
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14:16:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: I can't really understand my logic here any more. I think I only toggle the unwinnable flag if the star has been found, a "thief" coin is uncovered, none of the remaining players have a star/horseshoe, and there are no horseshoes left in the map.
14:16:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: So I think I don't check for the Canary Islands special cases.
14:16:56 <Deewiant> Wait, you keep track of horseshoes that have been found before the star?
14:17:07 <Deewiant> Or no, that was in no way implied by what you said.
14:18:18 <fizzie> The rules were written based on the physical copy of the game I have here, and that's from some time in the 1980s, and doesn't contain the special rule anyway.
14:18:46 <fizzie> In practice we don't even the skip the turns for the player who's stuck on the island; we simply ridicule him/her every time it's his/her turn.
14:18:47 <Deewiant> The original rules certainly don't account for the special case :-)
14:19:05 <Deewiant> fizzie: But can that player do anything?
14:19:19 -!- Wh1teWolf has left (?).
14:19:34 <fizzie> If on the larger island, yes, you can walk from one end to another repeatedly. On the smaller island, not much.
14:20:30 <Gregor> AnMaster: Looks like an upgrade broke it.
14:20:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: The game is at least clever enough to handle that case: if you have no options you can do, it always adds an "end turn" option to the sidebar.
14:20:49 <AnMaster> Gregor, good I need bf_txtgen NAO!
14:21:06 <fizzie> You can run the same bit of Java locally, you know.
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14:21:27 <immibis> fizzie: Isn't egobot written in C?
14:21:45 <EgoBot> 110 ++++++++++[>+++>++++++++++>+++++++>+<<<<-]>+++.>.++++++++.++++++.---.++++++++.<-.>--------.---..-------.>++.>. [600]
14:21:57 <EgoBot> 186 +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++++++++<<<<-]>>>---.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.<++.>++++++++++++.>.-------------------------------.<----.------.--------.+.+++++++++.<+.<-----. [453]
14:22:31 <oklopol> !bf_txtgen Hepskukkuu maailmainen!
14:22:34 <EgoBot> 182 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>.+++.<-----.>++.<..>..>++++.<--------.<<----..>--.>-.+.<<.>.>+.<----.>.>+.-----------------------. [471]
14:22:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what does that mean?
14:22:59 <fizzie> immibis: I am under the impression that bf_txtgen is the same thing as that textgen.java from somewhere. Being written in C doesn't mean you couldn't run other processes.
14:23:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh "literal" as in "funnily broken"?
14:23:35 <AnMaster> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++++++++<<<<-]>>>---.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.<++.>++++++++++++.>.-------------------------------.<----.------.--------.+.+++++++++.<+.<-----.
14:23:46 <immibis> fixxie: you're right, from looking at the source: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen/textgen.java
14:23:47 <AnMaster> why the extra dot there fizzie ^
14:23:52 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's the newline.
14:24:07 <AnMaster> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++++++++<<<<-]>>>---.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.<++.>++++++++++++.>.-------------------------------.<----.------.--------.+.+++++++++.<+.
14:25:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, is that really correct translation?
14:25:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so it should have been "X won" basically
14:25:54 <fizzie> "X is a winner!" would possibly be more literal.
14:26:02 <fizzie> But "A winner is X" is the meme.
14:26:16 <Deewiant> But that's more "The winner is X"
14:26:18 * AnMaster wonders if you could insert the strings in the binary
14:26:51 <fizzie> Some of them are in multiple pieces.
14:27:01 <fizzie> You could get close, I guess.
14:27:45 <fizzie> Space-padding where needed, abbreviating the English also.
14:28:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, wouldn't \0 padding work?
14:28:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, or do you depend on fixed length?
14:28:38 <fizzie> I guess in most cases it would work right.
14:28:45 <AnMaster> │ ...... db "Out of memory when allocating mesh vertex array (%s).\0" │
14:28:54 <AnMaster> you do have English strings there
14:29:02 <fizzie> All the error messages are in English, yes.
14:29:30 <fizzie> There are some "Impossible: X" ones too.
14:30:29 <fizzie> The terrain.map file in the data directory should be human-readable text too, if you want to customize it.
14:30:59 <fizzie> (Some of the node numbers do have special rules attached, though.)
14:33:26 <Deewiant> You didn't feel like distinguishing them? :-P
14:33:49 <fizzie> Deewiant: The .map file format parsing and such were done in a relatively early stage of the project.
14:33:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: The "game logic" part was done with the deadline looming.
14:34:31 <fizzie> I'd show you the commit frequency from a "svn log", but "svn: Could not open the requested SVN filesystem"
14:34:35 <fizzie> The repository must've moved.
14:35:21 <Deewiant> This is why you should always use a DVCS locally when using a school's CCVS system :-)
14:35:44 <fizzie> Actually I used a local CCVS system, it's just that the C has moved. :p
14:37:29 <fizzie> I've switched to a more DVCS-oriented way nowadays, but that was back then.
14:38:58 <fizzie> Probably more like "center" in the "has moved" part.
14:40:36 <fizzie> I found quite a pile of SVN repositories, but none of them seem to contain that particular project.
14:41:39 <fizzie> Hey, there it probably is.
14:44:36 <fizzie> There actually aren't so many separate commits that it'd look impressive; but you can deduce something from the fact that the last commit was made at 2006-04-06 05:43:19, and that is indeed in the local time zone. As I remember it, we had the "return the project and demonstrate it to the course assistant" session booked for 2006-04-06 morning.
14:52:34 <fizzie> I was quasi-seriously considering "zzie.fi", actually.
14:53:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: Ireland, like probably a majority of the ccTLDs, only sells domains if you live or have an office or have at least something to do with the country in question.
14:53:39 <fizzie> At least officially. Don't know what the actual practice is, but that's the regulation.
14:54:07 <uorygl> Maybe I'll have to ask my Albanian friend to register it for me.
14:57:29 <fizzie> The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CcTLD list claims to have a * for all that allow foreign registration, though that's probably not kept religiously up-to-date.
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15:00:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, untranslated string: "kierroksella uudelleen"?
15:01:45 <fizzie> Yes. It's the second half of "Yritä seuraavalla".
15:01:59 <fizzie> "Yritä seuraavalla kierroksella uudelleen" => "Try again on the next round" or some-such.
15:07:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, you meant you didn't get things done well before the deadline?
15:07:34 <AnMaster> I always make sure to be done at least a week before
15:07:56 <AnMaster> (assuming I as notified before a week in advance)
15:09:08 <fizzie> I am bad with deadlines and scheduling things.
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15:34:00 <fizzie> Erm, usually those flash-based "navigate our shop with this panorama picture" things do proper perspective correction, but this one somehow looks rather freaky, especially if you navigate around it: http://www.korkeavuorenkatu.fi/fin/panorama/faberart.htm
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15:36:43 <fizzie> I guess it's just that it needs to be zoomed in so that the "natural" field-of-view of the picture matches at least a bit the field-of-view caused by the monitor.
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15:53:00 <oerjan> who is this hubert anyway
15:54:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, wait, haven't we done that already today?
15:54:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: didn't we already men
15:55:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, you need to mark it by ... or something
15:55:49 <oerjan> confusing you is the meaning of the universe, after all
15:57:59 <oerjan> the universe likes shooting fish in barrels, clearly
15:58:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, more like finishing barrels in shootguns
15:58:52 * oerjan thinks he broke AnMaster
15:59:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, wrong. Only dried frog
16:00:58 * oerjan notes that all but one google hit for "but tell me hubert" is for this channel
16:01:22 -!- AnMaster has set topic: hubert who? http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:01:40 <oerjan> and the final one is harry potter fanfic :D
16:02:08 <oerjan> with sex in it, if the introductory warning is to be believed
16:02:32 <oerjan> "The first in an irregular series of stories."
16:02:48 <oerjan> are we looking at shakespeare's work here?
16:02:50 * AnMaster goes back listening to Swedish jazz
16:03:05 <AnMaster> some compilation of Swedish jazz
16:03:10 <coppro> well done, you've successfully described all internet fiction (fan fic or otherwise)
16:03:40 <coppro> "an irregular series of stories"
16:03:49 <oerjan> that's a quote from the page, actually
16:04:10 <AnMaster> coppro, how comes you know that?
16:04:29 <coppro> all logic is based on generalization
16:04:58 <coppro> all internet fiction I've seen can be described as an irregular series of stories -> all internet fiction can be described as an irregular series of stories
16:05:17 <AnMaster> coppro, that implication is not true.
16:05:31 <coppro> all logic works like that, because some logic works like that
16:05:37 <AnMaster> coppro, well known example: All swans I have seen are white
16:05:51 <AnMaster> except there are black swans in Australia
16:05:53 <coppro> (note: I know this is not true. It's fun to be stupid, though)
16:06:15 <AnMaster> coppro, ehird hasn't realised this yet
16:06:49 <oerjan> coppro: so you are not aware of the distinction between deduction and induction?
16:07:12 <coppro> It's just that it's entertaining to pretend not to
16:07:28 <coppro> (the distinction, of course, is that induction isn't logic)
16:08:15 <AnMaster> um what? afaik induction proofs work over countable sets?
16:09:12 <coppro> mathematical induction is deductive reasoning
16:09:35 <Slereah> While regular induction is just "it has worked so far, so it must always be the case"
16:09:38 <coppro> ok, I missed the sarcasm
16:09:52 <AnMaster> coppro, that's because it wasn't there ;P
16:10:23 <coppro> by being really stupid
16:10:46 <coppro> by making a change to the lexer that I apparently did wrong
16:10:54 <fizzie> Alarums. Enter Iohn and Hubert.
16:10:54 <fizzie> Iohn. How goes the day with vs? oh tell me Hubert
16:10:54 <fizzie> -- MR. William SHAKESPEARES Comedies, Histories & Tragedies, Published according to the True Original Copies London Printed by Ifaac Iaggard, and Ed, Bount. 1623
16:10:58 <AnMaster> coppro, are you working on clang?
16:11:01 <fizzie> That's where Hubert got to our topic.
16:12:15 <fizzie> Wait, there's no comma there.
16:13:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: what coppro and AnMaster said. also there is _transfinite_ induction which doesn't require countability
16:13:36 <fizzie> In fact it is more likely from this actual, later copy of the King John play:
16:13:37 <fizzie> [Alarums. Enter KING JOHN and HUBERT.]
16:13:37 <fizzie> KING JOHN. How goes the day with us? O, tell me, Hubert.
16:14:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, there was no "but" there: but tell me, hubert
16:14:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: well ordered (or even well founded) set instead of just naturals.
16:14:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway why did shakespear like hubert so much
16:14:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, well, fungot does mix that stuff up.
16:14:33 <fungot> fizzie: ah oh you're breaking up really really bad it was based on a true life story or something yeah
16:14:39 <oerjan> you can use it to prove things about all ordinals, say
16:14:52 <oerjan> no, reals are totally ordered, not well ordered
16:15:23 <oerjan> well ordering means every non-empty set has a smallest element
16:15:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, well the rationals are countable. you can map them to the integer by using the diagonal
16:15:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: um this is irrelevent to what i said
16:17:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, so example of uncountable but well ordered set
16:17:52 <fizzie> oerjan: Irreverent to what you said.
16:18:32 <oerjan> the axiom of choice allows you to give a well ordering for any set, no matter how big. Zermelo's proof. However it needs to have no connection to any usual ordering.
16:19:02 <oerjan> aleph-1, being the first uncountable ordinal, is the smallest example
16:19:29 <oerjan> as a von Neumann ordinal it is the set of all countable ordinals
16:19:53 <mycroftiv> i still can't decide if I believe the axiom of choice is true or not, and if it has consequences for physical reality either way
16:20:38 <oerjan> that's cardinal. but that presentation gives a well ordering of it.
16:22:28 <oerjan> it's name as an ordinal is omega-1
16:23:59 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_number explains everything i said about this so far, i think
16:24:35 <AnMaster> I think I need to sleep a bit before understanding this
16:33:16 <uorygl> The axiom of choice definitely has no consequences for physical reality.
16:33:57 <uorygl> ZFC contains models of ZF-C and vice versa, doesn't it?
16:34:30 <oerjan> well not strictly a model
16:34:32 <coppro> how is it that my change is causing runtime errors in an area not in my codepath?
16:34:50 <oerjan> but an embedding of sorts?
16:35:00 <uorygl> What's a non-strict model and what's non-strict about it?
16:35:21 <oerjan> if you had a model in the technical sense you would have a proof of its consistence, violating godel incompleteness
16:36:22 <uorygl> So assuming that ZF is consistent, are there models?
16:36:38 <oerjan> so it's more like: given a model of one, you can construct a model of the other
16:37:31 <oerjan> godel's completeness theorem says essentially that, yes, iirc
16:37:52 <oerjan> of course this requires working inside ZF to start with...
16:39:35 <oerjan> but i'm not an expert on this
16:40:53 <uorygl> Yeah, I guess the completeness theorem does pretty much say that.
16:45:25 <oerjan> i _think_ cohen's forcing used for one direction of the proof requires working with ZF as the metatheory, but i haven't exactly read the proof.
16:45:48 <oerjan> because forcing requires some rather heavy set theory stuff
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17:09:07 <quantumEd> "consequences for physical reality." ? because reality is finite or what
17:09:29 <quantumEd> by reality I guess you mean sockdrawers
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18:13:48 <mycroftiv> Well, assuming I'm remembering this stuff correctly, doesn't the Banach-Tarski paradox depend on the axiom of choice being true? Obviously nobody is actually going to be able to attempt that kind of disassembly/reassembly physically, but I think that shows AOC isnt devoid of applicability to physical theory
18:14:21 <quantumEd> mycroftiv, it's a conseqence of axiom of choice
18:14:34 <quantumEd> it doesn't matter whether choice is true or not (whatever that means)
18:16:30 <mycroftiv> I just meant 'true' as a sloppy way of expressing whether or not that axiom is included in a formal system
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18:27:07 <mycroftiv> ok, here's a link that seems to make the case that modern physics already presumes the axiom of choice to be true:
18:27:15 <mycroftiv> http://books.google.com/books?id=4paH9zuYzmgC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=axiom+of+choice+and+physics&source=bl&ots=72CmYhfqCB&sig=C-97pzDcvE5Cok64aKMxvsmLUao&hl=en&ei=b04kS-2IA9TDlAeU9YH2CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=axiom%20of%20choice%20and%20physics&f=false
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18:30:23 <quantumEd> I don't really understand that stuff :/
18:30:36 <quantumEd> I think that I don't know physics well enough to get it, maybe
18:34:36 <mycroftiv> well, the details arent that important, the outline of the argument is that von neumann's analysis of quantum superposition made use of math that depends on axiom of choice - as to whether that really supports the somewhat strong conclusion he draws, i dunno
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18:35:25 <mycroftiv> im not actually arguing for/against AOC having any physical relevance, but I think its an interesting question that cant just be dismissed, if you take the relationship between reality/physics/math seriously
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21:48:42 <uorygl> mycroftiv: on the contrary, the Banach-Tarski paradox has no application to physics, either.
21:51:13 <mycroftiv> uorygl: I agree with that, but after trying to research the question a bit I would say that it seems pretty clear the mathematics of modern physics makes use of proofs dependent on axiom of choice in some places
21:51:35 <mycroftiv> so it seems from my attempting to understand the issues (subsequent to earlier semirandom musings) that there really is a pretty direct connection
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21:52:58 <uorygl> Well, I'm quite skeptical.
21:53:32 <uorygl> I mean, the axiom of choice doesn't even talk about real things. It talks about things known as "ZFC sets".
21:53:40 <oerjan> mathematical analysis gets prettier when you use the axiom of choice
21:54:20 <uorygl> I'm pretty sure it can be stated as simply placing a restriction on what things are ZFC sets and what things aren't.
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21:57:54 <mycroftiv> Well, the ontological question of whether or not the mathematical rules we use to describe reality are actually embedded within reality in some way, or are directly synonymous with it, or are only related via the mechanism of essentially subjective mentation is still pretty vexatious
21:58:42 <HackEgo> * annoying: causing irritation or annoyance; "tapping an annoying rhythm on his glass with his fork"; "aircraft noise is particularly bothersome ... \ [17]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Vexatious litigation is legal action which is brought, regardless of its merits, solely to harass or subdue an adversary. ...
21:59:50 <HackEgo> * thinking: the process of using your mind to consider something carefully; "thinking always made him frown"; "she paused for thought" \ [13]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Mental activity. The process of thinking
22:00:30 <uorygl> You're asking whether the definition of a man-made concept is embedded in reality in some way.
22:01:01 <uorygl> Does which color means "go" have any bearing on physics? No, definitely not.
22:01:22 <mycroftiv> its not that simple, the external universe is the cause of all our thoughts, and we are not in any way separate from the universe
22:01:52 <mycroftiv> if materialism is basically correct, which I think it is, human ideas are simply another observable objective physical phenomenon in the universe, caused via its action and bearing the imprint of its structure
22:02:20 <mycroftiv> so the idea that human thought structure is in some way independent of reality is actually profoundly antiscientific, in my opinion
22:02:38 <uorygl> Yes, but "bearing the imprint" doesn't mean that fundamental truths will embed themselves in the definitions that we choose in order to simplify things.
22:02:59 <uorygl> The axiom of choice is part of a definition that we choose in order to simplify things.
22:03:12 <mycroftiv> To me it's an open question of how exactly our mathematical physics relates to reality - to what extent it is 'really out there'/
22:03:34 <mycroftiv> when i have two oranges in one hand and two oranges in another hand and then i put them on the table and count 4 oranges, it seems pretty objective
22:03:51 <mycroftiv> but reading cosmology and the like, it can be harder to have that same feeling
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22:05:23 <mycroftiv> But I guess if I believe the facts of arithmetic, and its axioms, can be 'out there' in the universe, then the axiom of choice could be implicate in the structure of how things work as well
22:05:51 <uorygl> That's because "two" and "four" have definitions that are strongly linked with physics; we can observe things whose behavior corresponds to the behavior of the integers.
22:06:10 <mycroftiv> I guess the example of riemannian geometry being created back when everyone thought space was flat and Newtonian is an example I could cite
22:06:36 <uorygl> I suppose that if we observed things that behaved like ZF sets, it would make sense to talk about whether the axiom of choice is true for the universe or not.
22:07:27 <uorygl> Hmm, I think that's a neat analogy. Given that the universe's geometry is not Euclidean, would you say that Euclid's fifth postulate is not true in this universe?
22:08:59 <mycroftiv> If the large scale structure of space time is curved, then you can either have multiple or zero parallels relative to a given line from a given point
22:09:19 <uorygl> What if we discovered some other area of physics that *does* follow the laws of Euclidean geometry?
22:09:44 <mycroftiv> well thats the problem, quantum theory basically does, and thats why we cant fit it with GR, right?
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22:11:09 <mycroftiv> we dont know how to mathematically reformulate QFT in gravitationally curved spacetime in a consistent way
22:11:29 <uorygl> Well, obviously, neither QM nor GR is a complete theory of stuff. As far as this part of geometry goes, GR seems to describe it better.
22:11:32 <oerjan> i'm not sure it's the non-euclideanness as much as the fact the geometry is changing with time...
22:12:49 <mycroftiv> uorygl: yeah, when it comes to drawing parallel lines to infinity, that is definitely on the scale of the cosmological ;)
22:19:18 <uorygl> You still haven't really answered my question, though.
22:23:52 <uorygl> What if we . . . of Euclidean geometry?
22:24:45 <mycroftiv> Well, I guess I have the belief that there is an actual set of true physical laws that are consisent across the observable universe and are expressible in mathematical form, and they will be all in agreement
22:25:34 <mycroftiv> So I would think that having spacetime be treated as Euclidean when modeling one process and non-Euclidean in another model would be a sign that one or another model was incomplete
22:26:43 <oerjan> it's leprechauns all the way down
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23:10:07 <uorygl> Wait, hang on a moment.
23:10:27 <uorygl> I would agree with you if I were talking about something like QM and GR.
23:11:08 <uorygl> But suppose that we actually do manage to find a complete set of laws for the universe.
23:12:35 <uorygl> And one part of these laws (e.g. its description of spacetime) consisted of a non-Euclidean geometry, and another (e.g. its description of some spooky thing we haven't discovered yet) consisted of Euclidean geometry.
23:22:34 <oerjan> yeah lovecraft had it backwards
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01:51:54 <mycroftiv> The question about the applicability to our experience of the parallel postulate seems to be exclusively in the realm of the spacetime geometry, the fact that something other than the geometry of space might use the tools of geometry would seem to be separate
01:52:40 <mycroftiv> In other words, its basically an experimental question - I set up a pair of infinitely long straight poles, set up the angles just so where I'm at - and what happens as you follow the bars away in space?
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02:34:07 <AnMaster> <coppro> how is it that my change is causing runtime errors in an area not in my codepath? <-- what caused it?
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08:05:57 <oerjan> duran duran in cyberspace
08:09:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, duran duran being some contemporary band?
08:09:43 <oerjan> somehow i only vaguely recall the name myself
08:11:53 <oerjan> so are you one of those people who can "rattle off the names of a dozen or more Renaissance era composers or musical compositions"?
08:15:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, not really. My main interest is in the range 1700-1800 with some specific composers outside that
08:16:13 <AnMaster> (I rather like Vivaldi for example, but I never liked Bach much)
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09:46:33 <coppro> AnMaster: the program was invoking itself recursively; the debugger was running on the initial instance that wasn't running through that code path
09:47:14 <coppro> AnMaster: what caused my issues with clang
09:55:43 <coppro> and no significant performance hits, which is good
09:56:54 <AnMaster> coppro, so clang was invoking itself?
09:57:33 <coppro> AnMaster: yeah, it just recently migrated from being two separate programs; I didn't realize it actually still called itself rather than passing the data around internally
09:57:40 <coppro> I expect that will eventually disappear
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12:07:54 <FireFly> Nice to know that you're liked
12:09:17 <AnMaster> certainly, but don't you ask yourself "why"?
12:10:29 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, he is in here atm....
12:10:36 <AnMaster> but not in real life I haven't seen him
12:11:11 <FireFly> AnMaster, I knew he was referring to the series
12:11:36 <FireFly> I've seen one episode of the series, and I didn't like it
12:11:43 <FireFly> AnMaster, some americanish TV series
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12:51:11 * AnMaster imagines a language *based* around C++ style templates
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13:13:34 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: all girls are hot.
13:14:17 <lament> girls being discussed in #esoteric, what is this world coming to
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13:19:58 <FireFly> lament, that'd at least be better than #not-math :P
13:20:19 <lament> this channel has a very different flavour from #not-math
13:20:52 <lament> #not-math is cynical and bitter, this channel is childish and enthusiastic
13:22:25 <oklopol> lament: is your purpose in life to try to balance the situation?
13:23:33 <lament> yes, it's what i was bred for
13:24:27 <oklopol> i love how channels have flavors.
13:24:40 <oklopol> not that i believe it's possible
13:24:47 <FireFly> I'd like chocolate, please
13:25:09 <oklopol> any group with over 3 people will eventually turn into the ideal flavorless group
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15:11:09 <oerjan> if i didn't think you were male and she is female, i'd suspect you wee anniefan from the iwc forum :D
15:13:56 * oerjan admittedly doesn't know firefly either, except that it has some ardent fans
15:16:05 <oerjan> <lament> #not-math is cynical and bitter, this channel is childish and enthusiastic
15:16:20 <oerjan> well when ehird isn't here, then it's all four at the same time
15:16:48 <oerjan> he didn't come by this weekend as i thought he said he would :(
15:18:07 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: shh, don't make him sad now
15:18:26 * oerjan brings out FireFly's greatest fan -----###
15:18:43 <FireFly> Didn't see that one coming
15:30:48 <oerjan> 'Søket på - "planew b" - fant ikke samsvar med noen dokumenter.'
15:42:46 <uorygl> oerjan: was that a somewhat convoluted of saying "That is the case when ehird isn't here; when he is, it's all four at the same time"?
15:44:16 <uorygl> Was that a slightly ambiguous way of saying "yes"?
15:46:33 <uorygl> Was that a slightly idiosyncratic way of . . .
15:46:56 <oerjan> i thought *ding* was sort of a game show sound
15:47:20 <oerjan> i cannot quite google a confirmation or not.
15:47:39 <oerjan> the reverse would be a toilet sound, or similar
15:48:11 * oerjan probably is not up-to-date on the matter
15:48:27 <oerjan> since i haven't watched tv much for years
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15:24:14 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/m6c8cd789 - draft of my (eso-ish)language
15:24:34 <asiekierka> i know JGR can be replaced with JL and JE
15:26:28 <asiekierka> i just want to be the "middleman" between RISC and CISC
15:41:24 <MizardX> If you have DIV and MOD, you need MUL
15:44:05 <MizardX> meta statements: PSH, POP, CAL, RET (possible with current commands, but makes it easier to implement methods)
15:44:49 <MizardX> memory-mapped registers: instruction pointer, stack pointer
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15:46:29 * oerjan considers changing to checking iwc before logging on iwc
15:50:16 * oerjan chuckles slightly at today's Lightning Made of Owls
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15:54:07 <oerjan> today's Square Root of Minus Garfield is rather ... meta
15:56:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: balrog, death
16:01:43 <oerjan> didn't cthulhu chair an organization of them at one point...
16:05:00 <asiekierka> i consider MUL, CAL (EXT will be used as a RET)
16:06:38 <pikhq> Argh. Why did my first final have to be the earliest possible final?
16:06:47 <pikhq> I had almost forgotten that there was an 8 AM.
16:09:16 <oerjan> 8 AM, the forgotten horror of the ancients
16:11:06 <pikhq> oerjan: The last time I was up that early, I had stayed up for it.
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17:11:22 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/nybblings_beta.zip
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19:05:36 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/m1613d8bd - works the first time, then it ignores the keyboard, then it works, etc...
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19:13:36 <quantumEd> is restricted brainfuck still turing complete? restriction is to interpret ] as } assert(p == oldP);
19:13:46 <quantumEd> the idea is that loops must end up where you started from
19:14:33 <uorygl> I mean, I think there are universal Turing machines that use only five cells.
19:15:03 <lament> quantumEd: i doubt it's been proven by anyone
19:15:06 <lament> quantumEd: so, you should do it!
19:17:56 <lament> quantumEd: it could possibly depend on whether individual cells are bounded or not
19:18:16 <quantumEd> I always think of it unbounded but I guess that's not really correct...
19:18:48 <lament> quantumEd: some people like bounded, some like unbounded, and the properties of the two wrt turing-completeness are quite different
19:19:28 <uorygl> Now, here's a neat idea: Brainfuck intros. Write a program in 4,096 BF instructions or less that runs on a tape with exactly 30,000 one-byte cells. It must output, in alternation, 307200 bytes interpreted as 256-color pixels on a 640x480 canvas, and 735 bytes interpreted as 8-bit 44100 Hz mono samples of a sixtieth of a second of audio.
19:22:28 <asiekierka> actually someone DID write an intro in BF
19:22:41 <lament> clearly the intro shouldn't be in brainfuck
19:22:55 <lament> it should be in machine code, containing a brainfuck interpreter and its program
19:23:36 <quantumEd> A lot of folks put game of life into demos
19:23:44 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/nybblings_rc1.zip - Final, though might still have a bug or two, I seriously doubt it.
19:24:28 <uorygl> Nope, 4,096 BF instructions.
19:24:38 <uorygl> 640x480 so it can look fancy. It doesn't need to look fancy, but it can.
19:25:06 <uorygl> If you want it to look non-fancy, use a couple extra instructions to simulate a lower resolution.
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21:11:13 <ais523> ugh, the Ubuntu auto-startup-disk-creator thing doesn't really work
21:11:18 <ais523> I had to reformat the USB drive by hand
21:11:24 <ais523> and reformatting drives always gets me scared
21:27:33 <fizzie> uorygl: There's a thing called bfvga.
21:27:42 <fizzie> uorygl: It maps the brainfuck tape to the 320x200 VGA screen memory.
21:27:53 <fizzie> uorygl: It was used in some less-than-4k intro competition.
21:28:09 <fizzie> uorygl: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=5060
21:28:40 <fizzie> That's not exactly the same thing, but related.
21:29:00 <ais523> you'd want to map every second cell, rather than the whole thing, to give calculation space
21:29:18 <ais523> (I suppose with some drivers, you could just have the tape actually in video memory...)
21:29:45 <fizzie> Yes, well, it's a DOS thing and it does keep the tape actually in video memory.
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22:07:32 <ais523> thanks Ubuntu driver person
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22:49:30 <SimonRC> ais523: what driveryness did they help you with?
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22:50:16 <ais523> I go look at the relevant bug report, and find that there's a driver already written and just waiting to be approved
22:50:23 * Sgeo wiped out hours of someone else's work on a term project due today
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23:04:25 <SimonRC> this may sound silly, but is there a debian program that lists all nearby wireless networks, like windows has?
23:08:32 <ais523> left-click and you should get a list
23:08:35 <SimonRC> currently it says I am not connected to any network, even though I am on a LAN
23:08:57 <SimonRC> and it lists no wireless networks, even though there is on in the house
23:09:12 <SimonRC> for the wired network it says "device not managed"
23:09:32 <ais523> ah, not managed means it's being connected some other way
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23:11:22 <SimonRC> some people seem to suggest changing the config fil in /etc
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23:11:53 <ehirdiphone> http://waffle.wootest.net/2009/12/13/nobel-speak/
23:12:24 <oerjan> i was worried when you didn't show up on the weekend
23:12:34 * Sgeo is considering an Android phone
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23:13:51 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo: The iPhone, despite numerous flaws, is superior in almost all the ways that matter. It feels like a seamless *interface*, not a gadget.
23:14:42 <ehirdiphone> Note that I find the App Store policies abhorrent to the highest degree.
23:15:02 <ehirdiphone> The iPhone is just so much better it cancels out.
23:15:15 * Sgeo finds the very concept of not being allowed to uses non-App Store apps abhorrent
23:15:59 <ehirdiphone> I'm serious: the iPhone is in an astronomically different league.
23:17:28 <Sgeo> ehirdiphone, do you know anything about Word's autorecovery features?
23:17:35 <mycroftiv> sounds like someone is speaking from inside a Reality Distortion Field
23:17:54 <oerjan> <lament> quantumEd: it could possibly depend on whether individual cells are bounded or not
23:18:12 <oerjan> it has too, a balanced bf program can obviously use only a fixed number of cells
23:18:46 <oerjan> pikhq's BFM seems relevant, it does things balanced unless you force it not to
23:19:07 <oerjan> quantumEd: equal number of >< in all loops, what you said
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23:19:36 <oerjan> *equivalent to what you said
23:20:22 <oerjan> and i recall pikhq had quite a number of macros for doing things balancedly, so he may practically have proved it already
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23:24:12 <ehirdiphone> mycroftiv: Bandy about distortion fields all you like: the iPhone's interface really is that much more crisp—and believe me, I wish it weren't so due to the App Store mess.
23:24:28 <Sgeo> Is crispiness really that important?
23:24:39 <Sgeo> I mean, with potato chips, ok >.>
23:25:10 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo: For a handheld device that must minimise fiddliness: it is everything.
23:25:15 <mycroftiv> I find that the bitterness of limited functionality lingers on after the sweetness of user interface is forgotten
23:26:01 <ehirdiphone> mycroftiv: What limited functionality?—are you disparaging the extreme interface simplicity?
23:26:09 <mycroftiv> but then, I find plan 9 to have an acceptable user interface and most people think using it is like being dragged pantsless across across a gravel pit
23:26:20 <oerjan> mycroftiv: i think you just summed up humanity there ;D
23:27:12 <mycroftiv> ehirdiphone: well, I'm a pretty hardcore freedom-to-use-as-you-wish guy, so any device I'm not root on seems to be limited functionality to me - and I wasn't really taking sides on behalf of Android, since it is 'more open' not 'open'
23:27:20 <SimonRC> well, changing the line in /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf worked to display the wired network logo
23:27:37 <SimonRC> no love for the wireless though
23:27:41 <ehirdiphone> mycroftiv: So an ideological objection. I agree, but:
23:27:42 <Sgeo> mycroftiv, in what way in Android not open?
23:27:53 <mycroftiv> you aren't root on the device without jailbreaking it
23:28:16 <Sgeo> How does jailbreaking work, exactly?
23:28:32 <mycroftiv> Sgeo: its usually based on a privilege escalation exploit against the OS kernel
23:28:46 <ehirdiphone> You plug in your phone, run a program on your computer:
23:29:58 <mycroftiv> google is actually amazingly sharp at the 'its open but its not game' - youtube was telling me to download google chrome for linux - but its license agreement forbids me to copy, reverse engineer, try to access the source code...
23:30:25 <mycroftiv> ehirdiphone: but the chrome browser they wanted me to download was NOT
23:30:52 <Sgeo> No. Chrome = Chromium + branding + RLZ
23:30:58 <ehirdiphone> Nobody else can build and distribute Firefox.
23:31:03 <mycroftiv> no, it is not the same, for using firefox I did not have to agree to the same restrictive licensing terms as chrome asked me to
23:31:31 <mycroftiv> trust me, the chrome download license agreement is a hell of a lot different than mozilla license crap, which is still annoying, im an ICEWEASEL user
23:32:06 <ehirdiphone> Wonderful, zealotry (ideology without relevant effect).
23:32:23 <mycroftiv> its not zealotry, its doing what the lawyers said they had to
23:32:46 <mycroftiv> if debian wanted to be able to patch firefox independently of mozilla and distribute that, they didnt have the legal choice to call it firefox
23:33:05 <mycroftiv> so, I fail to see any zealotry whatsoever
23:33:36 <mycroftiv> ok, i dereferenced the pointer wrong, fix the stack
23:33:59 <ehirdiphone> Anyway, too much typing effort for iPhone usage. One thing no phone is good at is long typing.
23:37:42 <ehirdiphone> Anyway, let's just abolish copyright. There, debate ended with my own extremist position.
23:39:02 <mycroftiv> yup, i think the overall consequences of that would actually be stimulative to the economy, despite a lot of short term disruption
23:40:08 <uorygl> Hmm, I like the idea of abolishing EULAs.
23:40:11 <oerjan> SimonRC: oh no, we're doomed!
23:40:18 <SimonRC> after changing the line in /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf (may or may not have made a difference)...
23:40:21 <mycroftiv> although, for mechanical processes and inventions, there is an argument that patents actually *encourage* sharing of information, because without patents, there is a very high incentive to keep inventions secret and simply use them for competitive advantage
23:40:23 <SimonRC> the magic command is: sudo iw dev wlan0 scan
23:40:36 <SimonRC> suddenly, I can see all these networks
23:41:01 <uorygl> If you want to take some sort of platonic rationality-assuming mathematical perspectives, having EULAs is equivalent to not having EULAs, because companies can just make you sign a contract before ever handing over the software.
23:41:05 <mycroftiv> just upheld in the apple/psystart case though
23:41:54 <uorygl> In practice, of course, people are more likely to buy software and then sign a EULA for the software they've already paid for than sign a contract and then have access to the software.
23:41:56 <mycroftiv> uorygl: correct, one of the big problems with totally abolishing IP law is that there would be a number of very perverse consequences, such as what you just mentioned and the decision to 'hoard' inventions rather than publishing them
23:42:24 <SimonRC> now if only / wasn't on a HD that used external power, I might be aple to actually take this laptop to places
23:42:33 <ehirdiphone> uorygl: Here, using my estimation of your economic beliefs to make you oppose copyright.
23:42:43 <uorygl> Hoarding inventions is such a cute idea.
23:42:45 <SimonRC> and the battery management was a bit better I supposed
23:43:08 <SimonRC> the point of patents was to stop trade secrets
23:44:03 <ehirdiphone> uorygl: Copyright = government granted monopoly on the copying of pieces of information, which cannot be created or destroed per se.
23:44:07 <mycroftiv> intellectual property law with sane boundaries and time limits was intended to serve as an incentive on *behalf* of the open publication of information
23:44:28 <uorygl> By "per se", do you mean "by itself"?
23:44:31 * Sgeo is in a patent
23:44:36 <uorygl> If not, use a different phrase, because that's what "per se" means.
23:44:59 <Sgeo> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4961476/description.html
23:45:38 <uorygl> I can't tell what you mean by "per se".
23:46:10 <ehirdiphone> Nothing, really. You can't create or destroy abstract information. It's not physical.
23:46:39 <mycroftiv> i suspect right now if we elimated all copy protection for software, for instance, the effect would be to make a lot of current proprietary software distributors to switch over to an entirely remote-access client/server model where you pay for access time and you never get a copy of the software on your machine even as a binary
23:46:52 <uorygl> I wonder how you estimate my economic beliefs.
23:47:02 <SimonRC> mycroftiv: oh how very web-2.0
23:47:22 <uorygl> I wonder how anyone estimates Yudkowsky's economic beliefs.
23:47:26 <mycroftiv> SimonRC: i think you mean how very 60s timesharing ;)
23:47:51 <ehirdiphone> Similar to Hanson's but less... Prediction Market.
23:48:08 <SimonRC> mycroftiv: webmail? google docs?
23:48:51 <ehirdiphone> uorygl: So, completely free capitalist Market.
23:49:17 <uorygl> I think Robin Hanson is an anarcho-capitalist.
23:49:29 <uorygl> I mean, in many ways, he is.
23:50:25 <mycroftiv> SimonRC: yeah im aware that business model is already in effect and never went away after its initial appearance decades ago, its the oldest new thing in history - and google's understanding of the gpl2 loophole where they can create as many derivative works as they want and make them available on network, not distribute them, is brilliant.
23:50:53 <ehirdiphone> How can you enforce the monopoly on access to property?
23:52:00 <uorygl> Well, I think calling it an artificial monopoly on copying information doesn't really help me understand anything.
23:52:18 <mycroftiv> all anarchism is based on the idea that people choose to cooperate voluntarily - and follow agreed upon rules without the use of force, in general. this is widely regarded as unrealistic.
23:53:08 <uorygl> Removing monopolies results in a price that is, in some sense, fair.
23:53:24 <ehirdiphone> Anarchism's safety is in dissociation by small communities.
23:54:09 <mycroftiv> lets not define anarchism, it reminds me of the talk page for the wikipedia anarchism article which is one of the most verbose and long running pointless arguments i have ever seen
23:54:42 <uorygl> Monopolies make the price move in a certain direction away from "fairness".
23:57:04 <ehirdiphone> i.e., without community sanctioned coersion.
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00:03:32 * coppro mentions patent law when ehird isn't looking
00:03:32 <coppro> uorygl: ehird hates patent law because he can't wrap his head around monopolies having any benefit
00:16:21 <lament> it's not like monopolies would not survive without patent laws
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01:13:45 <coppro> lament: Sure they would.
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02:40:42 <Gregor> I can now load ELF binaries on Mac OS X.
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16:08:45 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <Gregor> I can now load ELF binaries on Mac OS X.
16:08:47 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <Gregor> Take that, Apple!
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17:10:20 <Gregor> AnMaster: If FreeNode would stay alive for more than ten secodns, I'd tell you :P
17:10:30 <Gregor> AnMaster: http://codu.org/projects/gelfloader/
17:10:35 <AnMaster> Gregor, you are on the wrong side of the split
17:10:51 <AnMaster> Gregor, try connecting to orwell.freenode.net
17:11:41 <AnMaster> Gregor, however we seem to be on the same side now
17:11:50 <AnMaster> Gregor, also I read it was due to DDOS
17:12:31 <AnMaster> The requested URL /projects/gelfloader/ was not found on this server.
17:12:31 <AnMaster> Apache/2.2.14 (Debian) Server at codu.org Port 80
17:12:46 <Gregor> Whoops, http://codu.org/projects/gelfload/
17:13:57 <AnMaster> Gregor, invalid cert for the hg browser
17:14:19 <AnMaster> Gregor, oh btw, does it support dynamic linking? Or just static?
17:14:53 <Gregor> Yes, dynamic linking. And no, the cert isn't invalid.
17:15:01 <AnMaster> Gregor, well. self signed then
17:15:24 <Gregor> It's just a perfectly valid cert I updated like two months ago, you must not have the CA.
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17:16:19 <Gregor> Furthermore, it's the /only/ free one as far as I can tell.
17:16:57 <Gregor> Oh yeah, I forget what issue I had with CAcert though ...
17:17:11 <AnMaster> Gregor, does gelfload support rpath?
17:17:35 <Gregor> No, but it would be trivial to add rpath. It doesn't support rpath because rpath is suck :P
17:18:06 <AnMaster> Gregor, why is rpath suck? I found it useful for ~/local/foo stuff when I didn't want to clutter LD_LIBRARY_PATH for most apps
17:18:16 <AnMaster> like, trying out a newer gcc version
17:18:28 <Gregor> More to the point, I wrote gelfloader for Windows originally and I'm not sure how to interpret a :-separated rpath when : is quite meaningful on the host OS.
17:21:43 * Gregor wonders why it is that rpath is a "non-basic" feature, when there are so many more advanced features of ELF :P
17:22:09 <AnMaster> Gregor, well it was the first I thought of
17:22:15 <AnMaster> Gregor, what about gnu style hash?
17:22:43 <AnMaster> Gregor, my system binaries seems to have .gnu.hash but no .hash sections for example
17:22:54 <AnMaster> oh btw, does it work on linux?
17:23:06 <AnMaster> (for playing around with it obviously)
17:23:45 <Gregor> Gack. No, it uses .hash, not .gnu.hash. It does work on Linux but can't load native Linux ELF files as they generally depend on /lib/ld-linux[-x86_64].so which refuses to be loaded like a normal ELF file.
17:24:10 <Gregor> That is to say, they actually use symbols from their interpreter.
17:24:36 <AnMaster> also can gelfload load itself?
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17:25:27 <Gregor> /lib/ld-linux, the dynamic loader, doesn't like to be loaded like a normal ELF file for reasons I haven't yet figured out. I haven't prioritized it because as it turns out loading ELF files on Linux is kinda old hat :P
17:26:16 <Gregor> And no, gelfload cannot generally load itself, as it's only capable of loading anything at runtime because it's put itself into a position in memory not "likely" to be required by a non-PIC ELF file.
17:26:32 <AnMaster> Gregor, well yes, still useful to test on. At least I always found debugging easier on linux than windows.
17:26:43 <Gregor> It can load ELF files made for it.
17:26:47 <Gregor> I do all my testing on Linux.
17:26:54 <Gregor> Well, except for OS testing :P
17:27:31 <Gregor> If gcc was compiled for it, I'm sure it could load GCC.
17:27:32 <AnMaster> Gregor, macbook for os x sure. but what about windows+
17:27:49 <AnMaster> Gregor, okay. What about glibc?
17:27:55 <AnMaster> it does some crazy things iirc
17:28:05 <Gregor> glibc was the problem I was JUST talking about :P
17:28:11 <Gregor> /lib/ld-linux being part of glibc
17:28:38 <AnMaster> Gregor, well you were talking about ld.so yes which is a part. But even if ld.so didn't work, libc.so.6 (or whatever) and libm could work
17:28:40 <Gregor> At some point I had access to a Windows system, at which point I originally wrote it and also wrote winelf (the library environment for ELF files on Windows). Now I don't have Windows anymore :P
17:28:54 <Gregor> AnMaster: libc and libm depend on ld-linux
17:29:12 <Gregor> Needs libc, and so ld-linux
17:29:27 <Gregor> Haven't tried on FreeBSD :P
17:29:30 <AnMaster> though iirc that is a different libc or such there)
17:29:44 <AnMaster> Gregor, what libc do you use for testing stuff then
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17:30:06 <Gregor> gelfload is capable of "virtual" libraries that actually just cause the loader itself to dlopen a host library.
17:30:27 <Gregor> So, gelfload binaries are linked against e.g. libhost_libc.so.6, rather than libc.so.6
17:30:53 <AnMaster> Gregor, that won't work on windows iirc
17:31:00 <Gregor> On Windows it uses LoadLibrary
17:31:03 <AnMaster> doesn't it link statically to libc there
17:31:06 <Gregor> And e.g. libhost_msvcrt.dll
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17:31:53 <Gregor> Maybe has it's own C runtime, Idonno *shrugs*
17:32:33 <Gregor> The compelling reason to link against msvcrt.dll from nine years ago was that the NT family and 9x family use different (undocumented) syscall styles, so you need to use a MS-provided .dll to reliably do syscalls.
17:32:58 <AnMaster> Gregor, wasn't that user32.dll?
17:33:15 <AnMaster> and then those called ntdll.dll internally or such
17:33:31 <Gregor> Whoops, you're right, user32 and kernel32 are those (which of course winelf has to link against too :P )
17:33:35 <Gregor> msvcrt just uses though.
17:33:37 <AnMaster> Gregor, what "advanced" features are missing btw?
17:34:18 <Gregor> It doesn't support certain relocations I haven't come across in the wild, it doesn't support special sections e.g. RPATH, and anything else I've just plain missed :P
17:34:21 <AnMaster> Gregor, and what linker do you use to target gelfload?
17:34:33 <Gregor> gelfload is just a normal host binary.
17:34:46 <AnMaster> Gregor, what about setting mprotect() for NX and such based on relevant sections?
17:35:06 <AnMaster> iirc there is some way you say that in the elf headers or some elf section or such
17:35:13 <Gregor> It mmaps with the relevant permissions.
17:35:28 <Gregor> (I don't recall whether the equivalent Windows call handles the permissions properly or not)
17:35:51 <Gregor> Which is to say, if the host system's mmap supports making segments non-executable, then they'll be non-executable.
17:36:12 <Gregor> If it's a GNU feature, I don't support it.
17:36:49 <AnMaster> some of those gnu features are useful
17:37:21 <Gregor> Of course they are, it's GNU.
17:37:51 <AnMaster> Gregor, not all gnu extensions are useful
17:38:15 <AnMaster> Gregor, what arches do you support?
17:38:24 <Gregor> Presently just x86 and x86_64.
17:38:29 <AnMaster> since I assume you will need some target specific asm
17:38:35 <AnMaster> to jump to the program for example
17:38:42 <Gregor> That's the only bit of ASM it uses.
17:38:52 <Gregor> The rest is all C. But is still specialized for relocation of course.
17:39:03 <AnMaster> Gregor, what does it do on unknown sections and such
17:39:21 <AnMaster> [68] .gnu_debuglink PROGBITS 0000000000000000 001506d9 00000018 0 0 0 1
17:39:23 <Gregor> Ignores unknown sections, complains about unknown relocations.
17:39:27 <AnMaster> I think that it is (from my glibc)
17:39:53 <Gregor> There are always sections that the dynamic linker doesn't need to care about *shrugs*
17:40:13 <AnMaster> well yes, debug info for example
17:40:43 <AnMaster> Gregor, anyway what functions in ld.so does glibc use? If it is a few simple ones it would be trivial to implement no?
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17:55:29 <AnMaster> <Gregor> There are always sections that the dynamic linker doesn't need to care about *shrugs*
17:55:31 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> well yes, debug info for example
17:55:32 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Gregor, anyway what functions in ld.so does glibc use? If it is a few simple ones it would be trivial to implement no?
17:55:34 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> oh and do you happen to know what the .jcr section is?
17:55:37 <AnMaster> Gregor, oh and another question: do you suppport PIE
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17:56:19 <Gregor> I don't know what ld.so does that it doesn't like. Like I said, I haven't prioritized that. Yes, PIEs are supported. It would be tricky /not/ to support them :P
17:56:37 <Gregor> Well, OK, not that tricky, but it would be totally arbitrary.
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20:07:51 <AnMaster> <Gregor> Well, OK, not that tricky, but it would be totally arbitrary. <-- ah, well I never worked at that low level so I have no clue.
20:08:14 <Gregor> PIEs are just ELF files that are labeled as shared objects but have an entry point.
20:08:25 <Gregor> Erm, and are relocatable, obviously :P
20:08:26 <AnMaster> Gregor, does it support Deewiant's dobela interpreter?
20:08:34 <AnMaster> since that is written in asm with a custom file header and such
20:08:46 <Gregor> If it's basically ELF, then maybe? :P
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20:09:16 <AnMaster> Gregor, ever seen that page demonstrating a compact ELF program with part of the program inside the unused fields in the header?
20:09:34 <AnMaster> I don't know if he used that trick
20:09:52 <Deewiant> It has perfectly correct ELF headers, no tricks
20:09:54 <AnMaster> Gregor, http://iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa/dobelx64/index.html
20:10:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm maybe I misremember
20:10:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that link fails to load
20:10:11 <Gregor> It shouldn't have any issues with things like the compact ELF program, self modifying should be fine so long as it doesn't count on the ELF loader caring.
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20:10:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yay for sending incorrect mime type of http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/files/dobelx64/dobelx64-src.tbz2
20:10:50 <Deewiant> Ah, iki says they've had troubles lately
20:10:53 <AnMaster> I'm unable to get it to auto open in ark
20:11:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: tkk.fi, not deewiant.fi
20:11:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, eh? did I claim it was deewiant.fi?
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20:11:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also you can try .tar.bz2 and see if it helps
20:11:44 <Deewiant> My point was that I can't do anything about it
20:11:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, .tgz gets correct mime type
20:11:59 <Deewiant> And there's no point in complaining to me, complain to the IT staff :-P
20:12:03 <AnMaster> so yes you could send it as .tgz
20:12:22 <Deewiant> I select gzip/bzip2 based on which takes less space
20:12:32 <Deewiant> Or if the difference is on the order of bytes, gzip
20:12:49 <Deewiant> Because lzma is a lot less standard than gzip/bzip2
20:13:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you use 7zip, which iirc uses lzma internally
20:13:17 <AnMaster> http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/ccbi.html <-- no gz or bz2 there
20:13:33 <Deewiant> Yes, zip. Which is even more widespread than gzip/bzip2
20:13:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you use advdef -z4 on your *.gz?
20:13:59 <AnMaster> it can sometimes save a few percent
20:14:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, same package as advpng: advancecomp
20:14:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, compared to gzip --best or whatever it is, advdef can usually save a few percent
20:15:31 <Deewiant> I use 7-zip to generate all the archives
20:15:33 <AnMaster> (as in, still deflate/gzip but better compressed)
20:15:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, advdef can save a bit on that too in some cases
20:15:45 <Deewiant> Actually, for tarred stuff I probably don't
20:15:59 <Deewiant> But then, dobelx64 is the only tarred stuff IIRC
20:16:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and iirc advdef/advzip/advpng *uses* 7zip algorithms
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20:16:50 <AnMaster> anyway, for png it generally goes: optipng -i0 -o7 foo.png && advpng -z4 foo.png && advdef -z4 foo.png
20:17:17 <Deewiant> 212.16.100.1 seems to be a good replacement for iki.fi right now, not sure why the nameservers prefer the .2 which is down
20:17:25 <AnMaster> (for some reason advdef manages slightly better, but advpng does some extra stuff like throwing away pointless sections in the file)
20:17:46 <AnMaster> iki.fi has address 212.16.100.1
20:17:46 <AnMaster> iki.fi has address 212.16.100.2
20:17:46 <AnMaster> iki.fi mail is handled by 10 mail2.iki.fi.
20:17:46 <AnMaster> iki.fi mail is handled by 10 mail.iki.fi.
20:18:24 <Deewiant> Quite, but wget on iki.fi/deewiant shows that it goes to the .2
20:18:32 <Deewiant> Maybe it's iki.fi that have it wrong
20:18:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that a pax or a tar?
20:18:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the source for dobelx64
20:19:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ark shows a file called pax_global_header in it
20:20:39 <AnMaster> ; 10 is taken by an instruction value, don't use it
20:20:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does that require a 255 byte in the input file?
20:21:29 <fizzie> Deewiant: Sure you can do something about it; just add a .htaccess file to fix it. (Okay, so I don't know whether that works on users.tkk.fi actually; I've done that on www.cs.hut.fi, though.)
20:21:59 <Deewiant> fizzie: Woot, they allow users to have their own .htaccess?
20:22:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: Like I said, maybe not at users.
20:22:22 <Deewiant> I could move it over to cs I suppose :-P
20:23:05 <fizzie> I don't think it has one; I mean, there's only accounts for staff. (I have no clue about Niksula.)
20:24:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which file contains the elf header?
20:24:15 <Deewiant> http://www.tkk.fi/WWW/mime_types.html#htaccess presumably allowed
20:25:01 <fizzie> kosh t 57 % cat > .htaccess
20:25:01 <fizzie> AddType application/x-no-such-application funky
20:25:01 <fizzie> kosh t 58 % cat > t.funky
20:25:01 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ wget http://users.tkk.fi/htkallas/t/t.funky
20:25:01 <fizzie> Length: 7 [application/x-no-such-application]
20:25:07 <fizzie> Yes, it seems to work for users.tkk.fi too.
20:25:37 <Deewiant> fizzie: In a subdirectory too? Nice
20:25:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So what's the correct MIME type
20:26:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try file -i on the fil
20:26:16 <AnMaster> see if it says anything useful at all
20:26:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I *think* it is application/x-bzip2
20:27:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So, assuming it worked, it should work now.
20:27:09 <AnMaster> application/x-gtar gtar taz tgz
20:27:13 <fizzie> Well, it's "x-", so it can't be anything too official.
20:27:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it did after clearing cache
20:27:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway you can limit in apache what .htaccess can change
20:28:06 <AnMaster> presumably they made it rather limited
20:28:12 <AnMaster> mime type only, no scripts and such
20:29:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, broken link on http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/misc-projects.html
20:29:28 <fizzie> There's always application/octet-stream, which is also a viable option for binary files that do not have an IANA-registered MIME type. It's better than text/plain, in any case.
20:29:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, (the bit "this programming exercise")
20:29:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You've reported that one before
20:30:25 <AnMaster> <fizzie> There's always application/octet-stream, which is also a viable option for binary files that do not have an IANA-registered MIME type. It's better than text/plain, in any case. <-- it was what it was before, causing it not to open in the ark kparts
20:30:41 <Deewiant> http://users.tkk.fi/t1061203/projektit/Adventure/kierros8_tehtava3.html would be the modern equivalent
20:30:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: Speaking of mime types, and while you're "at it", the .7z files get text/plain too.
20:31:41 <fizzie> Someone claims application/x-7z-compressed, but those are all a bit unofficial.
20:31:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nice, now it opens with khexedit kparts rather than kwrite kparts
20:32:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, "someone" in this case *was* the Wikipedia "7z" article in an unsourced statement.
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20:32:43 <fizzie> application/x-x-extra-x-7z-compressed
20:33:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is fasm intel style or AT&T style?
20:33:59 <AnMaster> when it comes to order of arguments
20:34:11 <Deewiant> I wouldn't have it any other way :-P
20:34:12 <AnMaster> ah that explains why it makes no sense
20:34:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why do you dislike AT&T style so?
20:34:52 <fizzie> How *coincidental*; there's a Debian bug report from 28 Oct 2009 for the "file" package about the .7z mime type; it's been fixed at 05 Dec (ten days ago) in file 5.03-4 to be that application/x-7z-compressed. http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=552742
20:35:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Sigils, postfixes, crazy indexing syntax
20:35:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you mean crazy indexing syntax?
20:35:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is that in AT&T
20:36:40 <fizzie> Also [eax+4*ebx+8] is 8(%eax,%ebx,4) -- every *normal* person can read the first one easier. :p
20:36:53 <Deewiant> In Intel syntax, all you need to know is that [] means dereferencing and the plus and multiplication symbols
20:36:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, it all depends which one you are used to
20:37:09 <Deewiant> That is to say, if you're a normal person all you need to know is that [] means dereferencing
20:37:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no, most normal persons doesn't need to know asm at all
20:37:45 <Gregor> Most normal persons don't need to know any programming language.
20:37:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Assuming, of course, a need to know asm.
20:38:07 <AnMaster> "most people wouldn't understand what dereferencing meant"
20:38:08 <pikhq> Most normal persons don't need to know any of dem dere "words" or "letters".
20:38:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, in west Europe I think illiteracy(sp?) isn't that high
20:38:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You wouldn't need to know it in exactly those words :-P
20:39:04 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'm in the US. Functional illiteracy is very prevalent.
20:39:25 <pikhq> (total illiteracy, not so much...)
20:39:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, seeing the problems some people had with simple pointer arithmetic in C at university recently I suspect there is no easy way to explain it for some
20:39:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, functional illiteracy meaning?
20:40:36 <AnMaster> I fail to see what is wrong with 8(%eax,%ebx,4)
20:40:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: They are *capable* of reading to some extent, but haven't actually read since high school or college.
20:40:57 <pikhq> Erm. Wrong definition.
20:41:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: One has to know what each argument means in order to know what the whole thing means
20:41:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and what postfix notation were you referring to exactly. It seems a strange way to describe that source comes before target in stuff like mov %eax,%edx
20:41:15 <pikhq> Are capable of reading, but only barely.
20:41:16 <Deewiant> I can recognize that as a memory access but no further
20:41:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I meant postfixes on instructions; movl, movw etc.
20:41:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well okay, it seems like it could try to guess it
20:41:49 <pikhq> The lack of reading capability functions as a serious impediment.
20:42:17 <AnMaster> as for the sigils and the proper argument order those are what make me love AT&T asm
20:42:35 <AnMaster> I could live with either indexing syntax
20:43:03 <coppro> my view on indexing syntax is that 4(%eax) is not natural
20:43:15 <Deewiant> Of course I could live with AT&T
20:43:18 <Deewiant> But fortunately I can choose not to
20:44:17 <AnMaster> coppro, I think it is the same as writing 4[myarray] in C basically.
20:44:42 <coppro> AnMaster: I consider that unnatural too
20:44:55 <coppro> and something that should be reserved for IOCCC
20:44:58 <Deewiant> Except that you don't write myindex[myarray,myotherindex,myscale]
20:45:06 <fizzie> Yes; I would hope the majority of C programmers would consider "4[myarray]" unnatural too.
20:45:18 <AnMaster> I wonder if %eax(4) is valid, pretty sure it isn't. But maybe it should be.
20:45:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, you haven't read enough IOCCC then
20:45:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: IOCCC is not trying to be natural, you know.
20:45:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, except it underflowed and came out on the other side
20:47:14 <AnMaster> anyway it goes like: segment:offset(base,index,scale) iirc
20:47:42 <AnMaster> also index and scale are optional
20:47:53 <fizzie> Offset is also optional.
20:48:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes, forgot to mention that
20:48:04 <fizzie> I for one would feel really stupid writing 0(%eax)
20:48:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, it would be like eax[0]
20:49:04 <fizzie> Personally I would think it'd be like you couldn't write "*eax", you would have to write "*(eax+0)" instead.
20:49:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, rather similar to people writing char mybuffer[5+1]; to remember the null byte
20:50:05 <fizzie> To quote the comp.lang.c faq on the commutativity of subscripting: "unsuspected commutativity is often mentioned in C texts as if it were something to be proud of, but it finds no useful application outside of the Obfuscated C Contest (see question 20.36)."
20:50:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about %gs:-10(%ebp,%eax,4)
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20:51:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is it in confusing intel syntax
20:51:12 <Deewiant> I don't know about segment addressing
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20:51:28 <Deewiant> Without that, [ebp - 10 + eax*4] I guess
20:51:35 <fizzie> It would be [gs:ebp+4*eax-10], I think.
20:52:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is movl $10, (%eax)
20:52:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, what if I wanted to move a byte then
20:53:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, you have a longer suffix there
20:53:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Quite, but I know that "mov" is the instruction
20:53:38 <Deewiant> With AT&T I can't be sure what's part of the suffix and what isn't
20:53:40 <fizzie> Yes, with the indirect-o-tron there you need to specify the operand size. But you only need to specify it at all when it's not deducible from the register.
20:53:51 * SimonRC wonders what the various Forths do for intel ASM
20:53:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and I know that mov[bwlq] is the instruction.
20:54:06 <Deewiant> mov [eax], dword 10 works in fasm as well, I think
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20:54:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, instructions very it is meaningful to have different sizes, such as mov, generally takes [bwlq]. But say stuff like cpuid doesn't
20:54:55 <Deewiant> When I don't know all instructions by heart I'm glad to know that the first word of a line is the instruction name
20:55:31 <Deewiant> Presumably calll exists then as well, etc.
20:55:44 <Deewiant> I don't memorize these things.
20:56:09 <Deewiant> objdump -d /bin/ls | grep callq
20:57:00 <AnMaster> since I mostly write gcc inline asm and read gcc output, AT&T is a lot more practical
20:57:35 <fizzie> Also for dereferencing when it comes to branch ops, you have to use * for indirection instead of the "usual" ()s in AT&T.
20:58:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, fairly uncommon in inline asm though
20:58:31 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> I just use -masm=intel :-P <-- wouldn't that break inline asm in system headers?
20:58:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... Inline asm in system headers?!?
20:59:04 <Deewiant> I meant it for reading the output
20:59:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, iirc htons() checks for gcc and then uses a bswap
20:59:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, it uses some bitwise magic as fallback
21:00:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, and stuff like fpu_control.h would need it
21:00:21 * pikhq goes back to Haskell, with its cross-compilation unit inlining
21:00:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, duh it uses different variants for different systems
21:00:56 <AnMaster> /usr/include/bits/byteswap.h: __asm__ ("rorw $8, %w0" \
21:01:08 <AnMaster> so it is collected in one place
21:01:18 <pikhq> ... Can't GCC generally optimize bit-twiddling down well?
21:01:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't think -masm=intel affects the input anyway
21:01:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, well maybe it is a relic?
21:01:39 <Deewiant> You need a directive in the asm to set it (".intel_syntax"?)
21:01:41 <fizzie> <bits/byteswap.h> is a spectacularly messy "one place", though.
21:01:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, better than spread out over everything
21:02:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, gc.h from boehm-gc contains some __asm__
21:02:05 <fizzie> Yes, but it's glorious.
21:02:23 <AnMaster> # if defined(__GNUC__) && !defined(__INTEL_COMPILER)
21:02:24 <AnMaster> # define GC_reachable_here(ptr) \
21:02:24 <AnMaster> __asm__ volatile(" " : : "X"(ptr) : "memory");
21:02:24 <AnMaster> GC_API void GC_noop1(GC_word x);
21:02:24 <AnMaster> # define GC_reachable_here(ptr) GC_noop1((GC_word)(ptr));
21:02:30 <pikhq> That's probably understandable.
21:03:08 <fizzie> # if __WORDSIZE == 64 || (defined __i486__ || defined __pentium__ || defined __pentiumpro__ || defined __pentium4__ || defined __k8__ || defined __athlon__ || defined __k6__ || defined __nocona__ || defined __core2__ || defined __geode__ || defined __amdfam10__) /* To swap the bytes in a word the i486 processors and up provide the `bswap opcode. -- */
21:03:11 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Yes, but it's glorious. <-- avoid math headers then
21:03:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is split over multiple lines here
21:03:32 <fizzie> Yes, I combined it for IRC.
21:03:46 <fizzie> I don't think it helps much. I mean, the readability is not the problem there.
21:04:56 <AnMaster> /usr/include/asm/byteorder.h: __asm__("bswap %0" : "=r" (x) : "0" (x));
21:05:15 <AnMaster> iirc those are kernel includes
21:05:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, you will like /usr/include/asm/byteorder.h too
21:05:45 <AnMaster> and I suspect you will like certain math includes
21:06:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, in fact /usr/include/tgmath.h is RIGHT up you <road type of preference>
21:06:39 <AnMaster> static __inline__ __u64 ___arch__swab64(__u64 val)
21:06:53 <AnMaster> that was from /usr/include/asm/byteorder.h
21:07:04 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from fizzie: 0.90 second(s)
21:07:04 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from fizzie: 1.42 second(s)
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21:07:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's again the bouncer with multiple clients connected to it.
21:08:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, go look at /usr/include/tgmath.h
21:08:21 <ais523> what's so great about tgmath?
21:08:43 <AnMaster> I can't find any short enough to paste on irc sadly
21:09:19 <AnMaster> it does all the sin/sinl/sinf by including one internal header three times iirc
21:09:30 <AnMaster> ones for double, once for long double and once for float
21:11:12 <AnMaster> well for everyone too lazy to read that file
21:11:16 <AnMaster> # define __TGMATH_UNARY_REAL_ONLY(Val, Fct) \
21:11:16 <AnMaster> (__extension__ ((sizeof (Val) == sizeof (double) \
21:11:16 <AnMaster> || __builtin_classify_type (Val) != 8) \
21:11:16 <AnMaster> ? (__tgmath_real_type (Val)) Fct (Val) \
21:11:16 <AnMaster> : (sizeof (Val) == sizeof (float)) \
21:11:17 <AnMaster> ? (__tgmath_real_type (Val)) Fct##f (Val) \
21:11:19 <AnMaster> : (__tgmath_real_type (Val)) __tgml(Fct) (Val)))
21:12:06 <AnMaster> #define atan2(Val1, Val2) __TGMATH_BINARY_REAL_ONLY (Val1, Val2, atan2)
21:12:17 <AnMaster> # define log10(Val) __TGMATH_UNARY_REAL_ONLY (Val, log10)
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21:17:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, ais523, pikhq: stop being boring and reply :/
21:18:13 * AnMaster prods Deewiant for good measure
21:18:15 <fizzie> What? But boring is what I do best.
21:18:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Be more interesting so there's something worth replying to
21:18:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I thought that macro was fairly interesting
21:18:50 <AnMaster> or at least fairly horribly bad
21:19:04 <ais523> AnMaster: it's just a typical use of a gcc extension
21:19:08 <Deewiant> Looks like a typical few-liner macro to me :-P
21:19:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is a twenty line one too
21:19:26 <AnMaster> # define __TGMATH_BINARY_REAL_IMAG(Val1, Val2, Fct, Cfct) \
21:19:30 <Deewiant> Which would probably look like a typical few-dozen-liner to me
21:19:49 <Deewiant> I've seen C macros before and I don't really see anything particularly interesting here
21:20:22 <fizzie> It has a bit of an "the eyes glaze over" problem; it's just this mess of mess.
21:20:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://sprunge.us/ZWiF
21:20:56 <Deewiant> Yeah, a typically unreadable macro
21:21:26 <Deewiant> Doing things that should be left to templates or a similar metaprogramming system
21:21:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, lisp macros is the solution
21:22:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about #include_next?
21:23:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it allows system limits.h to include gcc limits.h
21:23:47 <Deewiant> Where's the magic compared to #include
21:24:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, looks at the next directory in the include path compared to current
21:24:11 <AnMaster> so it doesn't use a fixed path
21:25:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however, just in case, the compiler one do the same with the system one. And then they try to avoid looping each other by checking for it
21:26:45 <AnMaster> ooh /usr/include/bits/nan.h is simple yet "wtf"
21:26:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: Looks like a typical usage of GCC extensions in the macro system.
21:26:59 <AnMaster> ((union { unsigned __l __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__SI__))); float __d; }) \
21:27:04 <AnMaster> anyone care to tell me what that means?
21:27:33 <AnMaster> the interesting part of the header is http://sprunge.us/hViC
21:27:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Take the integer value 0x7fc00000 as a float.
21:28:05 <Deewiant> It's reinterpreting the hex value 7fc0_0000 as a float, presumably
21:28:10 <AnMaster> what's the mode __SI__ bit about?
21:28:27 <pikhq> Lemme check the GCC attributes page.
21:29:05 <Deewiant> typedef unsigned int u_int8_t __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__QI__)));
21:29:05 <Deewiant> typedef unsigned int u_int16_t __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__HI__)));
21:29:05 <Deewiant> typedef unsigned int u_int32_t __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__SI__)));
21:29:05 <Deewiant> typedef unsigned int u_int64_t __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__DI__)));
21:30:25 <pikhq> "unsigned __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__SI__)))" is, of course, the full type. (freaking C typesystem)
21:30:26 <fizzie> "This in effect lets you request an integer or floating point type according to its width."
21:31:57 <Deewiant> I like how modes don't seem to be documented
21:33:01 <AnMaster> __NTH (__signbit (double __x))
21:33:01 <AnMaster> __extension__ union { double __d; int __i[2]; } __u = { __d: __x };
21:33:17 <AnMaster> and unportable to a system where int isn't half the width of double
21:33:24 <AnMaster> from /usr/include/bits/mathinline.h
21:33:34 <Deewiant> bits isn't meant to be portable
21:34:00 <Deewiant> I wonder why they need the __extension__ there
21:34:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: They're sort-of documented in http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.3.1/gcc/Vector-Extensions.html
21:34:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: But apparently that list is gone from newer versions, because the base modes are now normal integer types, or some-such.
21:35:07 <Deewiant> I like the intuitive names, too
21:35:31 <AnMaster> #define FSETLOCKING_QUERY FSETLOCKING_QUERY
21:35:37 <AnMaster> every one is defined to itself
21:35:45 <fizzie> Yes, in the new version -- http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Vector-Extensions.html -- that list has been replaced by the use of a vector_size (N) where N is size in bytes.
21:36:05 * AnMaster tries to come up with a halfway sensible explanation to use BOTH an enum and a #define
21:36:35 <AnMaster> I guess compatiblity, since that is the fallback reason for everything
21:36:41 <pikhq> Clearly, we should nuke the preprocessor.
21:36:43 <fizzie> #define could be there so that you can preprocessor-ifdef against it; that's a common reason.
21:36:50 <fizzie> Enum for any other enumy reason.
21:36:55 <fizzie> Does the enum happen to have a name?
21:37:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, not in that file at least
21:37:25 <fizzie> Well, it auto-numbers the values.
21:37:38 <AnMaster> but that isn't a really good reason
21:39:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, /usr/include/bits/statvfs.h has such an enum and doesn't auto number.
21:39:42 <AnMaster> /* Definitions for the flag in `f_flag'. These definitions should be
21:39:43 <AnMaster> kept in sync with the definitions in <sys/mount.h>. */
21:39:52 <AnMaster> hm they never thought about using a common include I guess
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21:52:50 <ehirdiphone> Gregor: Rpath on os x: don't worry. Everything is / based internally. Naming a file with / is replaced with :.
21:53:17 <Gregor> I was referring to Windows.
21:53:39 <ehirdiphone> : is special on Windows?—isn't it illegal?
21:54:42 <ehirdiphone> Simples! Letter at start then colon then backslash meanie no seperato!
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21:55:16 <ehirdiphone> Technically I think C:foo might be valid for some kinds of FS but meh. Allow forward slash also.
21:56:25 <fizzie> It at least used to be so that "x:foo" meant "foo in the drive-specific current directory on drive x:" -- I don't know anything about modern Windows path-handling though.
21:56:46 <lament> :C\:\/:C:\\/:C:CC\:CCCC\\C/::::\\////C//C/C/C:\
21:56:56 <Gregor> Now you see the issue at hand :P
21:57:44 <Gregor> As ELF files aren't supported on Windows normally, no :P
21:58:09 <SimonRC> also : can be used to specify additional streams of a file
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22:00:46 <ehirdiphone> Gregor: Have you actually run ELF programs on OS X?
22:01:00 <Gregor> ... yes. WTF did you think I was doing?
22:01:06 <SimonRC> what is up with ehirdiphone?
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22:01:48 <ehirdiphone> SimonRC: Tedious phonetyping inspires fun, ja?
22:02:37 <ehirdiphone> Gregor: Technically you could use libraries other than what the library wants yeah? As substitutions
22:02:51 <Gregor> Yes, that's exactly what I do do.
22:03:10 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Gregor: To add C: to the path: C:\:… <-- \ alone at the start of a path is valid
22:03:11 <Gregor> Hence you can use a Mach-O libc in an ELF executable.
22:03:20 <ehirdiphone> Gregor: And—rewrite certain instructions at load time.
22:03:55 -!- fizzien900 has joined.
22:03:57 <fizzien900> ehirdiphone: BZZZZZT THE N900 MAKES ME SPEAK LIKE A RO-BOT.
22:04:05 <Gregor> Look, ":" is valid as part of a filename on ext2 too, the only issue is that it's /common/ as part of a path on Windows, so stop getting in a hubbub :P
22:04:24 <Gregor> ehirdiphone: Certain instructions are always rewritten at load time.
22:04:32 <ehirdiphone> fizzien900: The iPhone makes me speak like Steve Jobs. Did you ever meet Nokia's CEO?
22:05:17 <Gregor> I don't have any idea what you're ergoing.
22:05:51 <ehirdiphone> All that needs changing beyond ELF is the loaded libc and syscalls.
22:05:52 <fizzien900> ehirdiphone: No. Just the NRC (Nokia Research Center) head honcho, and even that is stretching the definition of "meet".
22:06:12 <ehirdiphone> fizzien900: Consider that he may be a robot.
22:06:22 <Gregor> ehirdiphone: Ah, yes, that's certainly feasible, although it would be easier to just sneak a layer under libc I suspect ... mebbe not.
22:06:50 <pikhq> You could in *theory* just create a libc that uses different syscalls and an ELF loader.
22:07:02 <pikhq> And hope that the program never uses a Linux system call directly.
22:07:05 <Gregor> Actually, hm ... that's compelling ... I could just replace the syscall with a call to a special function that overloads to whatever the user would like, then define the entire interface as standard C, and run Linux binaries on ... anything.
22:07:13 -!- fizzien900 has quit (Client Quit).
22:08:14 <pikhq> And I have tested it with Linux binaries... I know the thing works just fine.
22:08:28 <Gregor> I'm just going to alias libc.so.6 and libdl.so.2 and see how far that gets me, please hold.
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22:09:24 <pikhq> ... Actually, modern Linux binaries do system calls through the Linux call gate.
22:09:42 <pikhq> You could make the ELF loader just load in the proper call gate.
22:09:58 <Gregor> AnMaster: OS X's calling conventions are not different from Linux's calling conventions.
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22:10:15 <ehirdiphone> This could be the start of something beauthorrible.
22:10:24 -!- |MigoMipo| has changed nick to MigoMipo.
22:10:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, not same numbers on different systems
22:11:10 * Gregor goes back to doing what he was doing in the first place :P
22:11:37 <Gregor> AnMaster: Windows is the only OS that insists on fucking up calling conventions at all costs.
22:12:06 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well, non-trivial to do on the fly, probably easier to put a thunking layer in between
22:12:08 <ehirdiphone> I might be on the actual computomotron tomorrow. I'll play with this crap (EXTREMELY LITERALLY) if I am.
22:12:55 <pikhq> The call gate is dynamically linked, yes...\
22:12:56 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what about apps that uses X11
22:13:24 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well, this would be for libc too for windows calling conventions
22:13:46 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, oh I thought you meant modify the calling sequences to libc at load
22:13:55 <Gregor> I'm just going to let this conversation I started spiral out of control without me.
22:14:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: Nope, just have an alternate implementation of system calls.
22:15:00 <AnMaster> well then calling convention would be irrelevant
22:15:20 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, does he need to do anything special?
22:15:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: Well, except that the Linux callgate is a handful of actual functions wrapping the most efficient way to do system calls...
22:15:53 * AnMaster points to dobelx64 already mentioned today
22:16:19 <AnMaster> of course that does it's own system calls iirc
22:16:45 * Gregor continues to wait for everybody to finish pouting over problems that are entirely irrelevant in every conceivable way.
22:20:03 <ehirdiphone> Gregor: I'll never kill the conversation again I swear!
22:20:18 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:20:21 <Gregor> Damn right you won't, you're going to conversation-killing PRISON.
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22:20:37 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, he does syscall directly
22:20:49 * ehirdiphone gets anally raped by a conversation in prison
22:21:05 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Dammit, AnMaster. <-- why?
22:21:30 <ehirdiphone> Reviving the conversation just as I lamented it's parting.
22:22:16 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, anyway it's the middle of the week
22:22:42 <AnMaster> (not that I dislike that, just surprised)
22:25:09 <ehirdiphone> Gregor: Hit mw with. Link to that loader thing.
22:25:33 <ehirdiphone> Ow, I should have typpen more carefully there.
22:25:44 <Gregor> http://codu.org/projects/gelfload/
22:26:08 <Gregor> Trivially simple, yet apparently exciting to the extreme :P
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22:27:25 <AnMaster> Gregor, #define WIN32_LEAN_AND_MEAN <-- interesting
22:27:41 <AnMaster> what does it prevent including?
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22:27:46 <Gregor> AnMaster: Who friggin' knows.
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22:28:03 <AnMaster> https://codu.org/projects/gelfload/hg/index.cgi/file/666ac7de7f97/src/bbuffer.c
22:28:15 <Gregor> Everyone recommends its use.
22:29:04 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, you are lazy, it is at the top, sorted
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22:29:39 <ais523_> I love the way you can just copy dotfiles from one computer to another
22:29:47 <ais523_> and have all the settings copy too
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22:30:12 <ehirdiphone> Gravity does all he work of wutomtaically vrining you down
22:30:22 <ais523_> hi from my new computer, everyone
22:30:40 <ais523_> yay for iphone autocorrect?
22:32:00 <ais523_> now all I need to do is reinstall software
22:32:06 <ehirdiphone> I have a spelling chequer / it came with my pea sea. / It plainly Marx for my revue / mistakes I cannot sea.
22:32:08 <AnMaster> (also two arrows, invalid, thus doesn't count)
22:32:21 <ais523_> AnMaster: imagine a netbook, that's been hastily powered up so as to render it capable of running a non-crippled version of Win7
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22:32:30 <ais523_> and therefore is over the top for anything I want to do
22:32:53 <ais523_> smaller and lighter than what I'm used to
22:32:59 <ais523_> and small for weight reasons
22:33:04 <AnMaster> ais523_, horrible keyboard I bet
22:33:06 <ais523_> besides, the screen res is a bit better than on the last one
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22:33:20 <ais523> except ` and \ are in stupid places
22:33:23 <ais523> one either side of the spacebar
22:33:27 <ehirdiphone> No insulting Toshiba laptops, they're good. But ignore ais523_, he buys shit computers because he hates spending money.
22:33:31 <ais523> the keys are actually the same size as before
22:33:44 <ais523> ehirdiphone: it's too powerful to really be a netbook
22:33:58 <ais523> I think it has a whole 3GB of memory
22:34:06 <ais523> size is not the only thing that determines netbookness
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22:34:20 <ais523> (3GB, incidentally, because Windows won't use all of 4GB, and it came with Windows)
22:34:28 <ais523> ehirdiphone: you try carrying a laptop six miles down a canal
22:34:30 <ehirdiphone> Do you actually have muscles in your arms?
22:34:32 <ais523> I did once, it was painful
22:34:48 <ais523> this wasn't the cheapest one there
22:35:11 <ais523> anyway, if you want to laugh at me, laugh at me for putting a 32-bit OS on a 64-bit computer
22:35:41 <ais523> I bought one yesterday for the laptop
22:36:07 <AnMaster> ais523, you will use 64-bit linux on it right?
22:36:12 <ais523> AnMaster: 32-bit linux
22:36:19 <ais523> although the windows is 64-bit, it can't really handle it
22:36:26 <ehirdiphone> If there ever is an #esoteric meetup I will merely repeatedly divert the topic to how much better my laptop is
22:36:29 <ais523> there's a Windows Experience Index benchmark thing
22:36:36 <ais523> this computer scores 3.1
22:36:44 <AnMaster> ais523, well windows 64 bit is worse than windows 32 bit
22:36:47 <ais523> according to the help files, you need 3 to run Aero, and 4 to run more than one program at a time
22:36:51 <AnMaster> the same is not true for linux
22:36:54 <SimonRC> AnMaster: WIN32_LEAN_AND_MEAN was recently covered by the rather good Old New Thing: http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2009/11/30/9929944.aspx
22:37:23 <ais523> AnMaster: 64-bit is less efficient unless you have more than 4 MiB of memory or repeatedly do 64-bit arithmetic
22:37:25 <pikhq> I'd just like to note that the only issues I've had on 64-bit Linux are issues with obscure scientific packages I've had to futz with for work...
22:37:32 <ais523> because you can only fit half as many pointers into cache
22:37:34 <ehirdiphone> Does anyone want to transcribe my voice to the channel?
22:37:37 <ais523> and half as many native-sized ints
22:37:37 <pikhq> ais523: ... Or use shared libraries.
22:38:02 <AnMaster> ais523, so better register allocation
22:38:08 <AnMaster> also better calling convention
22:38:14 <AnMaster> since more stuff is passed in registers
22:38:34 <pikhq> (position independent code on x86_32 soaks up a whole register, and there's not many of them available)
22:38:38 <AnMaster> on 32-bit x86 they are all passed on stack
22:38:57 <ais523> the screen res is about the same as the old one
22:39:01 <ais523> slightly wider, slightly less tall
22:39:31 <pikhq> This issue does not really apply to Windows at all.
22:39:33 <ehirdiphone> I wonder how Dasher might be on the iPhone.
22:39:58 <ais523> the old one was 1280x800
22:40:02 <AnMaster> ais523, so in fact 64-bit linux will likely be better than 32-bit
22:40:06 <ehirdiphone> PIC is pretty irrelevant with virtual memory.
22:40:12 <pikhq> Yeah, they just relocate the damned library to each program's load address.
22:40:14 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I've installed this now
22:40:18 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: It's relevant for shared libraries.
22:40:23 <ais523> and it's unlikely to make a noticeable difference
22:40:26 <AnMaster> ais523, you will regret it in the long term
22:40:39 <pikhq> Since you'll want to map the library into different addresses in different processes...
22:40:50 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, when your distro is done *shurg*
22:41:22 <ais523> anyway, I think it at least has a dual-core processor
22:42:03 <ais523> model name: Genuine Intel(R) CPU U2700 @ 1.30GHz
22:42:11 <ais523> the sticker on it says "pentium", but not which version
22:42:14 <ais523> maybe it's a pentium 1!
22:42:55 <ais523> that's pretty much what I wanted
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22:43:21 <ais523> do you know what I use computers for, mostly/
22:43:47 <SimonRC> <chuckmoore twin="evil">Bah, who needs relocatable code? Just recompile your code into memory each time it is loaded. If that is not practical, your code is too big and your compiler is slowed down by unnecessary language features.</chuckmoore>
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22:44:46 <ehirdiphone> Fun & scary: see #esoteric meetups, duck binging.
22:44:59 <ais523> also scary: wtf would someone DDOS Freenode?
22:45:06 <ais523> apparently that's what's been causing all the netsplits
22:45:20 <ehirdiphone> duck binging: the giving of copious amounts of alcohol. To ducks.
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00:43:10 * SimonRC goes to bed. (Damnit, the bloody door's stuck again!)
00:43:12 * SimonRC goes to bed. (Damnit, the bloody door's stuck again!)
00:51:09 <oerjan> a revolving door, i see
00:51:30 <immibis> no it was used to commit a murder
00:51:50 <immibis> and the blood somehow reacted with the paint to cause it to stick harder than superglue
00:52:11 <immibis> oh and there are two of them
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14:36:41 <asiekierka> of an accumulator, Brainf**k and Nybblings(my own crappy creation)
14:38:33 <asiekierka> it has cell memory, a callstack and an accumulator
14:46:18 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/m190665e0 - new command
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15:47:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed. remind me, read it hours ago
15:49:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, did you get xkcd today at all
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16:04:47 <ais523> has Freenode stopped being DDOSed yet?
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16:52:26 <ais523> anmaster|laptop: your computer just changed size?
16:54:14 <ais523> it was a notebook, now it's a laptop
16:54:32 <ais523> whereas this is somewhere between a netbook and a subnotebook
16:55:00 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, notebook = "new name for laptop since it was discovered that actually using it on your lap isn't such a good idea"
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16:55:30 <ais523> for temperature reasons
16:55:30 <ais523> although I used to use one on my lap with a duvet in between
16:55:35 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, to make the matter worse I'm using my desktop keyboard atm
16:55:53 <anmaster|laptop> just my normal bouncer isn't managing to join all channels before losing connection
16:56:03 <ais523> ugh, the DDOS is that bad?
16:56:04 <anmaster|laptop> thus an emergency connection for the important channels on my laptop
16:56:37 <ais523> I'm glad that #esoteric is one of those four
16:56:52 <ais523> I voluntarily keep myself to a maximum number of channels that fits on the screen horizontally
16:57:02 <ais523> as a method of preventing myself overchanneling
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16:57:40 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, after all I'm on something like 420 or so in total nowdays. Yes I cut down recently
16:58:40 <ais523> how many do you actually pay attention to conversations in?
16:59:31 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, 70% maybe, not all are high volume. Not all are meant for reading (stuff like log channel for network services on one network, only read it when something bad happened and you need to figure out what)
16:59:53 <anmaster|laptop> some, like #freenode I only look in when there are lots of splits
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17:09:19 <anmaster_l> split again on the other computer's connection
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17:19:13 <anmaster_l> ais523, can you now highlight me in /msg to me directly. I think it is still broken there
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17:28:17 <uorygl> I keep reading that as /iˈhərdɪfoʊn/.
17:28:34 <uorygl> (Y'know, ee-HER-dih-fone.)
17:30:50 <asiekierka> asiekierka's crappy irc server using some network apps: asciinet.ath.cx:6667
17:42:44 <uorygl> Hey, you have an ath.cx thing. Is that a DynDNS domain name?
17:46:00 <asiekierka> asciiland.ath.cx:6667 does the same though
17:57:24 * uorygl adds 500 milliseconds of delay to asiekierka's enter key.
17:59:30 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> my own <asiekierka> on beware ircd <-- so not your own then. I was asking about ircd yes
18:00:11 * AnMaster see no point in connecting really
18:02:25 <anmaster_l> ais523, why the sudden decision to get a cloak today?
18:03:56 <ais523> anmaster_l: I'd meant to for a while, just never got around to it
18:04:01 <ais523> and I was in #freenode and thought, why not?
18:06:28 <fizzie> Freenode should offer something that they could call a "dagger", so that you could get the full cloak-and-dagger experience.
18:16:49 <fizzie> I have no clue what a dagger could be, though. Something you can stab with.
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19:07:29 <uorygl> The dagger deletes an IRC channel and prevents it from being recreated.
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19:51:03 <AnMaster> ais523: what is the point of time() taking an argument that is a pointer to somewhere to also store the return value
19:51:10 <AnMaster> I mean, normally you just do time(NULL);
19:51:20 <AnMaster> but why have that argument there at all. it seems mostly useless
19:51:32 <fizzie> It used to take the argument only, wasn't it so?
19:51:37 <ais523> backwards compat, I think
19:53:46 <AnMaster> ais523, is there any standard C function to get a random floating point value?
19:54:12 <ais523> besides, it's basically impossible to randomise fairly over the range of floats
19:54:19 <ais523> because there are more of them at some places than others
19:54:46 <AnMaster> ais523, well, I need a reasonable random floating point value in the range [0,2*pi)
19:55:05 <AnMaster> ais523, random enough to be good enough for a game of pong in this case
19:55:20 <ais523> just generate a random integer from 0 to RAND_MAX and scale
19:55:20 <AnMaster> so not for any cryptographically important things
19:55:38 <fizzie> When your needs are just "reasonable", you can take the one returned by plain old rand(), floatize, divide by RAND_MAX, and have ais523 write this advice a lot faster than I.
19:56:20 <fizzie> Maybe divide by (RAND_MAX+1) if you want that half-open interval.
19:57:04 <ais523> fizzie: be careful there, given that RAND_MAX + 1 may well overflow an integer
19:57:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, I guess it would be unfair to make it 1/RAND_MAX times more likely to go in one direction
19:57:22 <AnMaster> of course it probably wouldn't matter
19:58:08 <AnMaster> since 0 = 2pi when it comes to trigonometry
19:58:17 <AnMaster> (well no, not really, but the effect is that)
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20:04:53 <AnMaster> why on earth is the #define M_PI in math.h not part of standard C, but instead POSIX only?
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22:37:49 <uorygl> So 256ths of a circle? That's not all that strange.
22:41:31 <Gregor> That's 8-bit degrees :P
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22:42:20 <AnMaster> Gregor, indeed. But it was stored as fixpoint in a 32-bit int
22:42:43 <Gregor> OK, that's pretty weird :P
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22:46:57 <AnMaster> Gregor, to begin with it is weird that anyone uses fixpoint these days
22:47:31 <lament> so it's not a fixpoint
22:47:36 <lament> and the unit is not 1/256
22:47:46 <lament> it's whole numbers, and the unit is smaller :)
22:47:49 <Gregor> Embedded developers use fixed point.
22:49:13 <AnMaster> but this wasn't for embedded devices
22:49:28 <AnMaster> Gregor, to begin with, embedded devices would never use motif
22:49:39 <Gregor> Nobody should use motif.
22:49:56 <AnMaster> and a whole lot of other things
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23:07:56 <pikhq> Gregor: Yeah, Motif should die. As should the X11 widget library.
23:08:33 <pikhq> No, it's almost died.
23:08:52 <Gregor> Nothing in F/OSS ever dies to the point where it simply no longer exists, it's died as much as F/OSS can die.
23:08:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about historical software
23:08:53 <pikhq> The library has not been purged from every UNIX machine.
23:09:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: Actually, Motif hasn't really suffered from that. It's maintained at *least* enough so that it still builds.
23:09:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes that is why motif should and most continue to exist
23:10:46 <AnMaster> so that applications can build against it
23:10:46 <pikhq> You're talking to someone who wants to nuke all of X11...
23:10:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about people who want to try mosaic for example?
23:11:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, historical software should be accessible IMO
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23:16:07 <oerjan> yes we did. i think we have officially jumped the shark.
23:16:29 <anmaster_l> oerjan, that is when it *really* takes off
23:16:47 * oerjan swats anmaster_l -----###
23:17:28 <anmaster_l> oerjan, there are complex numbers and quaternions, what about some type of extension to the real numbers that have three "components" instead?
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23:18:46 <oerjan> there are always vectors of any dimension. it is getting multiplication and division with any kind of reasonable properties tham limits it to 1,2,4,8
23:19:10 <anmaster_l> (if I'm seeing the correct pattern here)
23:19:47 <oerjan> a new property breaks down at each step. at 16 there isn't anything left, more or less.
23:20:19 <oerjan> quaternions don't have commutative multiplication, octonions don't have associative
23:20:38 <anmaster_l> and then what is the next step to drop?
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23:21:18 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley-Dickson_construction
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23:22:14 <oerjan> "The algebra immediately following the octonions is called the sedenions. It retains an algebraic property called power associativity, meaning that if s is a sedenion, snsm = sn + m, but loses the property of being an alternative algebra and hence cannot be a composition algebra.
23:22:20 <oerjan> The Cayley-Dickson construction can be carried on ad infinitum, at each step producing a power-associative algebra whose dimension is double that of algebra of the preceding step.
23:22:25 <anmaster_l> oh and freenode is being ddosed from what I heard
23:22:44 <oerjan> some superscripts got lost in the paste, as usual
23:22:52 <oerjan> anmaster_l: oh for real?
23:23:13 <oerjan> who did we tick off...
23:23:40 <anmaster_l> (I think that was an oerjanific pun...)
23:23:58 <oerjan> no it wasn't, it was an honest question
23:24:37 <oerjan> well i guess i couldn't expect better while we are discussing octonions...
23:25:14 <anmaster_l> oerjan, I always wondered why you can't do integer complex numbers
23:25:41 <anmaster_l> well I guess the question would be "integer on what form" now when I think more about it
23:26:03 <oerjan> you have never heard of gaussian integers?
23:26:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, sounds strongly familiar.
23:26:34 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_integer
23:27:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, is that on a+bi or r*e^(i*v)
23:28:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, you can make re^(iv) where r and v are integers as well
23:28:39 <AnMaster> would be another integer domain I guess?
23:29:07 <oerjan> r*e^(i*v) doesn't make sense as being anything close to integer - e^b is transcendental if b is algebraic != 0, 1
23:30:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's not closed under sum. in fact it's a famous theorem that different e^(iv) are _independent_ generators as a vector space over rational numbers
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23:32:27 <oerjan> well something close to that. trying to look it up
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23:33:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindemann%E2%80%93Weierstrass_theorem
23:34:09 <oerjan> hm actually it _doesn't_ apply to iv with v integer, since those are obviously _not_ linearly independent
23:34:38 <uorygl> Say, anyone know what a linear combination of infinitely many things is?
23:34:50 <oerjan> oh wait it does apply under the equivalent formulation (Baker) listed
23:35:22 <oerjan> uorygl: requires a notion of limit at the very least...
23:36:18 <oerjan> and if it's not absolutely convergent, then depends on summation order
23:37:32 <uorygl> Suppose your set is the set of all functions of the form f(x) = {a, if x <= b; a + (x - b), if x >= b} for real numbers a and b.
23:37:39 <uorygl> What are all the linear combinations of that?
23:38:59 <uorygl> I wonder if the degenerate cases {b = +infinity, a = k} and {b = -infinity, a - b = k} for real numbers k are linear combinations of that.
23:39:20 <oerjan> intuitively i think you can converge to anything that has derivatives between -1 and 0
23:39:54 * uorygl ponders taking inspiration from probability spaces.
23:40:18 <oerjan> oh wait second derivative
23:40:55 <oerjan> _linear_ combinations, not just sums
23:41:11 <uorygl> Consider something that's like a probability space but without the requirement that the "probability" of the whole thing be 1. I imagine there's a name for that.
23:41:16 <oerjan> ok i think you basically get everything
23:41:22 <uorygl> Some sort of distribution thingy. Not "distribution", I'm sure.
23:41:57 <oerjan> depending on exactly what kind of limit you take i suppose
23:42:16 <uorygl> Intuitively, yeah, I think the linear combinations of that set are the continuous functions.
23:43:06 <uorygl> What precisely, though, if the members of the "probability space" are S and the "probabilities" are T?
23:44:51 <oerjan> the things that are integrals of measures are known as "absolutely continuous" functions
23:45:46 <oerjan> however there is an even further generation of this, which iirc _is_ called distributions
23:46:20 <oerjan> but then things don't get to be real functions, but instead something called generalized functions
23:46:58 <uorygl> Distributions are too general. I think there's a distribution whose convolution with anything is its derivative.
23:47:43 <uorygl> Anyway, let's call that thing a measure of S by T.
23:48:03 <oerjan> oh wait absolutely continuous applies to when the measure itself is absolutely continuous
23:48:35 <uorygl> So for some basis set B, consider the set of all measures of B by the real numbers...
23:49:26 <oerjan> for (non-negative) measures, what you get by integrating them are the right continuous increasing functions
23:50:39 <oerjan> for probabilities at least, also known as cumulative distributions, but a different sense of the word distribution
23:50:44 <uorygl> And also consider the set of all measures of B by whatever vector space B is a subset of...
23:51:27 <oerjan> s/increasing/non-decreasing/
23:51:32 <uorygl> ...what's that thing that's like a tensor product but without ab * c = b * ac? :-P
23:51:55 <uorygl> I'm sure that's called the product space of vectors or something.
23:53:48 <oerjan> oh if you ignore scalar product?
23:54:33 <oerjan> = a(b * c) also dropped at both ends, i presume?
23:55:14 <oerjan> but then iiuc you only retain group properties, so tensor product _as_ groups rather than vector spaces?
23:56:10 <oerjan> hm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_product doesn't list that directly
23:56:38 <oerjan> _although_ abelian groups = Z modules, so it's listed indirectly i think
23:56:52 <uorygl> Well, I'm really just talking about the Cartesian product of two vector spaces, made into a vector space the obvious way.
23:57:52 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_product_of_modules, the example section uses a group
23:58:23 <oerjan> uorygl: um but then (ab * c) = a(b * c) = (b * ac)
23:59:06 <oerjan> the _cartesian_ product of two vector spaces is not their tensor product
23:59:28 <oerjan> that's in fact their direct sum instead
00:00:20 <oerjan> or, product, those are equivalent for modules/vector spaces
00:00:38 <oerjan> so product, without tensor
00:01:05 * uorygl giggles at the idea of the sum of two vector spaces.
00:01:14 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_product
00:01:28 <oerjan> very general categorical concept
00:04:54 <oerjan> or rather, as explained in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_product#Direct_product_of_modules, _finite_ sums and products are the same
00:08:05 <uorygl> Why call it a sum if it's not a disjoint union?
00:08:35 <oerjan> disjoint union = sum in the category of _sets_, iirc
00:09:18 <oerjan> while product = cartesian product
00:09:43 * uorygl ponders proofs that 0 is not equal to 1, and decides that there isn't much of one anywhere.
00:09:51 <oerjan> but sum and product categorically stem from the universal property concept
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00:10:35 <oerjan> uorygl: peano arithmetic or real numbers?
00:11:06 <oerjan> or von neumann ordinals perhaps
00:11:59 <oerjan> for real numbers i think it may be one of the axioms...
00:12:43 <oerjan> for peano arithmetic: 1 = succ(0). by axiom, 0 is not a successor.
00:13:35 <oerjan> von neumann ordinal: {} is clearly a member of 1={{}}, and not of 0={}
00:14:46 * oerjan leaves the cardinality case as an exercise
00:23:05 <uorygl> Dedekind cuts are another possibility.
00:23:05 * oerjan looks at weather forecast
00:23:34 <oerjan> well, yeah, that would be as part of proving dedekind cuts fulfil the real number axioms
00:23:34 <uorygl> But, real numbers? Is there a proof that 0 is not 1 for the real numbers that deserves the word "proof"?
00:23:56 <oerjan> as i said, it may be one of the axioms
00:26:06 <oerjan> i think it may be part of the definition of "field". from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_(mathematics) : "For technical reasons, the additive identity and the multiplicative identity are required to be distinct."
00:27:03 <oerjan> mind you, if you remove that requirement you only get a trivial field remaining, because then x = 1x = 0x = 0
00:27:56 <oerjan> for dedekind cuts it's of course easy too, 1/2 is in one but not the other
00:42:09 <uorygl> Though you have to prove that 1/2 is in 1 but not 0.
00:42:44 <oerjan> 0 < 1/2 < 1, as rational numbers
00:43:05 <oerjan> to recurse, apply recursion
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02:05:13 * uorygl ponders what a blue-yellow color would look like.
02:05:42 <oerjan> it would probably blow
02:05:45 * uorygl ponders how useful it is to try to imagine blue-yellow.
02:06:10 <uorygl> I've slightly succeeded. I seem to be imagining a slightly yellowish very light blue.
02:10:25 <uorygl> Green is neither bluish nor yellowish.
02:11:13 <uorygl> You see, the colors, ignoring brightness, can be arranged into a plane. There's a red/green axis and a blue/yellow axis. Everything on the blue side of the blue/yellow axis is bluish, everything on the red side of the red/green axis is reddish, and so on.
02:11:25 <oerjan> coppro: i tried to tell him but i couldn't think of a pun that fit
02:13:02 * oerjan whistles^Wblows innocently
02:14:23 <Gregor> uorygl: That's a consequence of our three-cone vision, not an intrinsic property of colors.
02:16:37 * uorygl looks at cone cell responsivity spectra.
02:17:00 * oerjan sometimes wonders what aliens with completely different color sense would make of our visual media
02:17:37 <oerjan> or even just animals, if there are any such
02:17:59 <oerjan> (black and white vision obviously doesn't count)
02:18:08 <Gregor> There's no reason to believe that the range would even be close to ours, so it's entirely possible that basically everything artificial would be a solid color.
02:18:29 <Gregor> oerjan: Two-cone animals exist. e.g. cows.
02:18:34 <uorygl> Take an existing image. Create two images from it: one whose red component is the original's blue and whose blue is the original's green, and one whose green is the original's blue and the blue is the original's red. Put them side by side, and cross your eyes to as to look at both in the same place.
02:18:43 <uorygl> Aren't most mammals two-coners?
02:19:08 <oerjan> Gregor: however they would still see it as naturally as we do if their cone subset is close enough to a subset of ours
02:19:25 <oerjan> s/cone subset/cone set/
02:19:41 <Gregor> oerjan: Well, except that they wouldn't be able to distinguish e.g. green from purple.
02:20:03 <oerjan> Gregor: it's not being unable to distinguish things we can i'm pondering
02:21:02 <oerjan> i'm pondering the fact that virtually all our visual media depends on our three cone vision and therefore the actual physical colors in a picture are probably nowhere close to the true colors of the thing depicted
02:21:40 <oerjan> so what i'm pondering is actually the opposite, someone who can distinguish things we cannot and so would consider our media to be horribly mismatched
02:22:17 <uorygl> So, looking at these spectra, I see that while the blue cone is pretty much orthogonal to the others, the red and green are quite similar.
02:22:30 <oerjan> i vaguely recall reading somewhere recently that birds have four cones, so they might apply...
02:23:09 <uorygl> So we have a pretty good ability to distinguish red and green, considering that they're apparently similar colors, whereas our ability to distinguish blue and non-blue is more mundane.
02:23:16 <oerjan> but they are not intelligent enough to really make a statement on the issue
02:24:00 <uorygl> Might depend on the bird!
02:24:42 <oerjan> i think the thing i read had a "most" somewhere
02:24:56 <oerjan> er does the cough mean there was a pun there?
02:25:23 <uorygl> No, it means I'm relatively unsure of what I just said.
02:25:23 <oerjan> oh wait you were talking about intelligence?
02:25:40 <oerjan> i did read about that one parrot
02:26:03 <uorygl> I have friends named after that parrot.
02:26:12 <uorygl> (Look, spaced repetition!)
02:27:48 <oerjan> actually i think it was n'kisi, found the goodall quote...
02:29:13 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%27kisi
02:34:18 <uorygl> So, I told myself I would do non-actual work on a big project today.
02:34:32 <uorygl> I guess I'll do that now, right after asking 0x44 about Slicehost.
02:35:04 <uorygl> Except he's not here, so.
02:35:20 * oerjan wonders what non-actual work is like
02:37:14 <uorygl> It's like actual work, but easier and more time-consuming.
02:37:38 <uorygl> Actual work is harder and even more time-consuming.
02:37:59 * oerjan detects a violation of the ordering axioms
02:38:05 <uorygl> If those two statements seem to contradict each other, ignore the second one.
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16:14:52 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:23:18 -!- anmaster_l has joined.
16:24:01 <anmaster_l> since supposedly that computer was unreachable for several hours
16:26:35 <anmaster_l> (it is atm running memtest... just in case)
16:28:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:29:26 <oerjan> damn my internet is slow
16:30:40 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:31:13 <oerjan> ok must have been just that one site
16:31:26 <anmaster_l> okay I know whatever it was happened between 17:15 and 17:29
16:31:53 <oerjan> anmaster_l: end of the world. but it got restarted.
16:32:11 <oerjan> between 17:15 and 17:29, that is. i haven't looked at iwc yet.
16:32:14 <anmaster_l> because 17:15:06 was the last log message (doesn't seem related at all, just something from the caching dns server on the computer)
16:32:32 <anmaster_l> and 17:29:04 there is "syslog-ng starting up"
16:33:52 <anmaster_l> there is 17:12:51 about attaching sdb (card reader in printer, was turning printer on just as I got home)
16:34:03 <anmaster_l> soupdragon, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/
16:34:19 <anmaster_l> it's a contest we have, you must have noticed it
16:34:29 <anmaster_l> who can say iwc first (only valid between me and oerjan)
16:38:48 <oerjan> soupdragon: no i didn't
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16:39:57 * oerjan swats soupdragon for stealth changing his nick again -----###
16:40:13 <anmaster_l> ais523, hi. I had some weird issue with a system locking up. Weird as in: didn't respond for hours on ssh. Later on when I got home I found it didn't respond on console either
16:40:32 -!- AnMaster has joined.
16:40:37 <ais523> anmaster_l: seems rather unusual, although I've had that sort of thing too
16:40:38 <anmaster_l> ais523, however, no blinking keyboard leds for kernel panic, in fact the keyboard was completely dead, even to sysrq
16:40:47 <ais523> could it be a hardware problem?
16:40:50 <anmaster_l> ais523, but there was a log message from just before I used it!
16:41:00 <anmaster_l> ssh had been locked up for quite a bit
16:41:05 <ais523> also, is the system definitely powered on?
16:41:14 <anmaster_l> ais523, well yes, fan was on. and it is loud
16:41:19 <ais523> hmm... forkbomb perhaps
16:41:31 <anmaster_l> ais523, unlikely, sysrq should work then, no?
16:42:00 <ais523> perhaps memory exhaustion and thrashing
16:42:02 <anmaster_l> ais523, and numlock, scrolllock and such should do something when you press them
16:42:19 <anmaster_l> ais523, disk is loud in that computer. but it was just spinning idly
16:42:32 <anmaster_l> as in, no disk seeking and disk light on front of computer off
16:42:58 <ais523> hmm... kernel memory corrupted somehow?
16:43:12 <anmaster_l> ais523, maybe. USB devices I tried to connect stayed off btw
16:43:15 <ais523> you could sort-of explain what happened if some process started trashing memory
16:43:24 <ais523> and hit sshd first, then the kernel
16:43:31 <ais523> except that sort of thing usually only happens on Windows
16:44:00 <anmaster_l> ais523, 1) limits are set up 2) sshd and syslog-ng are both set to have low oom score using the files for that in /proc
16:44:15 <ais523> anmaster_l: wow, that's tunable?
16:44:24 * ais523 idly wonders how easily oom score could be improved
16:44:29 <anmaster_l> ais523, yes, you can say "avoid killing this process"
16:44:33 <ais523> but I'm not talking about out-of-memory, but rather, corrupted memory
16:44:37 <anmaster_l> good idea for syslog-ng and possibly sshd
16:44:56 <anmaster_l> ais523, as for memory corruption I ran memtest just last weekend, no issues
16:45:11 <FireFly> What computational class is required to increment a number?
16:45:29 <anmaster_l> ais523, and it seems perfectly fine after rebooting, even very few transactions replied
16:45:48 <anmaster_l> normally it seems to reply a few hundred in case of power failure or such
16:45:51 <ais523> FireFly: indefinitely, you need infinite memory but very little else
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16:46:02 <oerjan> FireFly: constant space works but only for little-endian ...
16:46:18 <oerjan> constant space == finite automaton
16:46:49 <anmaster_l> oerjan, why does it not work for big endian?
16:47:08 <oerjan> for big-endian you need to save the length of a carry run...
16:47:08 <ais523> soupdragon: incrementing 4, in particular, is finite-state
16:47:15 <ais523> as is any other operation which always produces the same answer
16:47:16 <oerjan> which takes logarithmic space
16:48:15 <FireFly> If we are limited by the length of the input number, and it's inputted in binary (any base would work, but I find it easier to think of it that way)
16:48:22 <anmaster_l> ais523, btw smartctl shows no logged errors or anything
16:48:26 <oerjan> say when summing 111111 and 000000 you don't know that there is no carry until you have read the last bits
16:48:29 <FireFly> Then we could always decrement a number >0 by 1, but not increment it, right?
16:48:50 <FireFly> not _always_ increment it, that is
16:49:04 <oerjan> hm ok even little-endian requires you to be able to read the summands in parallel
16:49:09 <soupdragon> you could say the biggest number incremented goes back to the start
16:49:10 <anmaster_l> ais523, and afaik there is no brown-out to blame it on this time
16:49:40 <oerjan> i'm thinking addition. INC doesn't need that of course
16:49:54 <oerjan> but still, 111111 has problems when reading big-endian
16:51:15 <soupdragon> imagine if it grew legs and could walk then it grows a brain and becomes alive!
16:52:14 <FireFly> But an FSM can increment a number, given enough memory.. so if we have a language whose output is bounded by the length of the input, it would need to have a lower computational class than an FSM?
16:52:35 <oerjan> FireFly: but the one number you cannot increment is exactly dual to the 0 you cannot decrement...
16:53:23 <oerjan> under switching 0 and 1
16:53:24 <FireFly> Yeah, but if you're limited to the length of the inputted value, it means you can't increment _any_ value consisting of only ones
16:53:26 <AnMaster> FireFly, wait, isn't incrementing by 1 bounded by the length of the input?
16:53:36 <ais523> FireFly: output bounded by length of input is LBA (by definition), and so /higher/ than an FSM
16:53:38 <AnMaster> after all it is just one bit more
16:53:51 <AnMaster> or do you mean exactly as long
16:53:52 <ais523> well, if it's bounded to be the same length, or proportional to it, it's LBA by definition
16:53:59 <oerjan> FireFly: and you cannot decrement any value consisting of only zeros. dual, as i said.
16:54:02 <AnMaster> rather than "in a fixed relation to the length"
16:54:41 <oerjan> FireFly: also, the FSM can increment anything, with its noodly appendages.
16:55:29 <FireFly> Well, what I'm thinking about is this, but I'm probably wrong: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint
16:55:52 <FireFly> Aw, didn't catch the FSM pun :(
16:56:34 <FireFly> At least I can't see how one could increment "11", "111", "1111", ...
16:56:41 <oerjan> <FireFly> ... we have a language whose output is bounded by the length of the
16:56:44 <oerjan> input, it would need to have a lower computational class than
16:56:53 <FireFly> As opposed to the only exception of "0" for decrementing
16:57:00 <oerjan> why the heck cannot irssi be _consistent_ about merging lines
16:57:16 <soupdragon> Decrementing a number is quite trivial to do in Bipoint. Incrementing a number, on the other hand, would be impossible???
16:58:04 <FireFly> Well, as I said, I guess I'm wrong then
16:58:12 <oerjan> FireFly: no, it's specifically for INC, little-endian, because you can scan input, print output and keep only constant carry bit as memory
16:58:30 <oerjan> it wouldn't work for reversing the input, say
16:58:43 <AnMaster> if you want something that works well
16:58:49 <soupdragon> FireFly I don't understand the execution
16:59:28 <FireFly> The idea is that the input is read, bit by bit
16:59:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: well normally i would only paste from the logs, which works fine, but the conversation was going so fast i though i should provide context
16:59:46 <FireFly> And each time, a decision is made, for which node to continue to
17:00:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, still consistency is not one of the hallmarks of irssi
17:00:42 <oerjan> <ais523> FireFly: output bounded by length of input is LBA (by definition), and so /higher/ than an FSM
17:00:50 <FireFly> So, "output" is _always_ of the same length as input
17:00:53 <oerjan> actually LBA can give exponential output
17:01:16 <ais523> umm, I meant storage bounded by length of input
17:01:18 <ais523> and said the wrong thing
17:01:18 <oerjan> under the interpretation that output is not part of the memory
17:01:31 <ais523> thanks for correcting me
17:01:33 <oerjan> (which is the most useful)
17:02:04 <AnMaster> can or can not an FSM implement increment?
17:02:22 <AnMaster> (for little endian, yes I see the issue with big endian)
17:05:00 <oerjan> assuming you can print more than one symbol for a symbol read, yes.
17:05:08 <soupdragon> http://groups.google.co.uk/group/net.general/browse_thread/thread/479e7ea4fcd78cc5/e809b92fdcc92888?pli=1
17:05:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, as long as you are allowed to have a "end of stream" symbol or such and are allowed to output 2 or 3 symbols at once
17:05:34 <AnMaster> you might need 3 if you use a end of stream symbol and want to be able to increment it again
17:06:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, and I haven't seen anywhere that forbids a FSM returning an n-tuple or list of symbols
17:06:53 <FireFly> http://pastebin.com/mdc465d6 <-- soupdragon what about that?
17:07:18 <FireFly> Execution begins at S, and then moves to the given arrow depending on the next symbol in the input string
17:07:40 <FireFly> The one I linked, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint
17:07:43 <oerjan> AnMaster: i've seen that allowed, although it was called a transducer
17:07:46 <FireFly> It's supposed to be ASCII art of a graph
17:08:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm okay. I was thinking along the lines of a mealy automaton here
17:08:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, "A FSA can be considered to be able to produce more than one output signal per transition or state. Or, some transitions may not depend on an input signal at all, moving to a new state automatically. (These two situations are also equivalent, save for the number of states required.)"
17:08:50 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Finite_state_machine
17:09:31 <oerjan> AnMaster: i'm looking at wikipedia, which definitely mentions transducers (and mealy automata are in that section)
17:10:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transducer?
17:10:11 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine
17:11:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, but plain accepting/rejecting ones can't produce any output at all can they?
17:11:48 <AnMaster> well apart from being in an accepting/rejecting state at the end
17:12:09 <AnMaster> which I think is exactly one bit of information, no?
17:13:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: well, i suppose you could consider the end state the output, for a little more
17:14:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: it seems like moore machines dually have no input...
17:14:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, still that is a finite number of possible outputs, even if input is infinite
17:14:54 <oerjan> (other than initial state)
17:15:14 <soupdragon> * "10011" would mean that {1, 0, 0, 1, 1} would be pushed to the stack, so it would contain {1, 1, 0, 0, 1}.
17:15:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, isn't moore ones like: "transitions based on input, output based on what state you are in"
17:15:45 <oerjan> AnMaster: a moore machine cannot depend on what the input is. although it seems it can still synchronize with it
17:15:55 <FireFly> Well, soupdragon, that was mostly because if it just read the string the regular way, it would have to take reversed numbers as input, and output reversed numbers as well
17:16:02 <oerjan> darn i've misunderstood then
17:16:06 <AnMaster> while mealy are like: "transitions based on input, output based on transitions"
17:16:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I had to learn this for a test a few months ago
17:16:19 <FireFly> E.g. 2 would have to be inputted as 01, but with the stacks you can actually input it as 10
17:16:34 <AnMaster> So I'm *pretty* sure that either I'm correct or the teacher and the book was wrong
17:17:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: you beat me as i'm failing to learn it at this very moment ;)
17:17:35 <oerjan> moore machines that is. transducers i found in a book (math encyclopedia) years ago
17:17:57 <oerjan> so long ago that i wasn't sure if it was still current terminology
17:18:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, well think like this. Assuming you represent the FSM as a graph with directed edges. On the edges are attached conditions. Which you use when you in a given state decide which edge to follow
17:18:17 <AnMaster> well, mealy has output on the edges as well
17:18:24 <AnMaster> but moore has output on the nodes
17:19:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, it seems to agree with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_machine.
17:19:43 <AnMaster> I agree the text at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine#Transducers is confusing
17:20:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think transitions on edges are prettier, because then input is entirely dual to output. in fact you can invert a nondeterministic transducer to translate back iirc
17:21:10 <AnMaster> transition on edges? err that's given isn't it?
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17:21:20 <AnMaster> the point was *output* on edges or output on nodes
17:22:36 <anmaster_l> <AnMaster> oerjan, also I'm pretty sure you can translate mealy to moore. just you need (possibly a lot) more states
17:22:48 <anmaster_l> okay what I say here go through to there
17:23:25 <ais523> it is weird; IIRC, asiekierka was reporting similar problems a while baclk
17:23:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, also I'm pretty sure you can translate mealy to moore. just you need (possibly a lot) more states
17:23:57 <anmaster_l> ais523, yeah I'm having problems seeing why lag would like 1-2 seconds in one direction and 20-30 seconds in the other
17:25:43 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from oerjan: 29.79 second(s)
17:25:44 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from ais523: 28.08 second(s)
17:27:05 <soupdragon> FireFly can you make a better syntax for it?
17:27:42 <FireFly> Well, I couldn't come up with anything easy, except of course a graph, but requiring ASCII art is a bit evil :P
17:27:52 <soupdragon> FireFly, every statement is basically, if pop() == 0 (or 1) then goto A; else goto B ?
17:27:59 <oerjan> a languitch of ay readabil syntacse
17:28:13 <AnMaster> FireFly, is that paste runnable?
17:28:19 <AnMaster> if not, what is a runnable version?
17:28:29 <FireFly> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint#Example_programs is a runnable version
17:28:39 <FireFly> As I said, the paste was a graph to help understanding it
17:28:54 <AnMaster> <oerjan> a languitch of ay readabil syntacse <-- you fail at spelling. Possibly this a pun so mangled I'm unable to trace it
17:29:10 <FireFly> AnMaster, you fail if you can't trace it to the row abov it
17:29:41 <AnMaster> FireFly, I'm unable to figure out what "ay" could mean. Only thing I can think of is "aye" which makes no sense
17:29:56 <AnMaster> well "may" maybe. but that makes even less sense
17:30:10 <AnMaster> FireFly, that isn't pronounced that like that in English though
17:30:49 <FireFly> soupdragon, well, the syntax isn't the best, but it works. you could of course use C-style syntax if you want, and simply compile it to Bipoint afterwards
17:30:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: "ay" is the emphasized pronunciation of "a", as far as i've always thought
17:31:03 <soupdragon> FireFly no no just trying ot undersatnd your statements
17:31:10 <oerjan> as well as before vowels
17:31:25 <soupdragon> every line has a unique id, ifZero and ifOne are branches that say which id to go to next
17:31:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, wouldn't that be closer to "ai"?
17:31:52 <FireFly> Well, yeah, and if op is 1, it outputs 1 in the process, before jumping
17:31:57 <FireFly> and if op is 0, it outputs 0
17:32:30 <oerjan> AnMaster: english doesn't use the spelling ai at the end of native words
17:32:37 <FireFly> Each round of execution is an output of 0 or 1 (except for the starting node), as well as a jump to a new node, depending on if the next value of the stack is 0 or 1
17:32:40 <soupdragon> id: push(op); pop() ? goto ifOne : goto ifZero;
17:32:45 <oerjan> i turns to y quite regularly
17:32:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, TP did sometimes to enhance a dialectal feeling iirc
17:33:17 <FireFly> Nope, I think that should be correct
17:33:30 <soupdragon> so you can write a unary increment then
17:33:32 <AnMaster> FireFly, so you do output on transitions?
17:33:40 <AnMaster> rather than on "current state"
17:34:03 <FireFly> soupdragon, no, that wouldn't work, since it can only output as many characters as you input
17:34:10 <FireFly> Due to the fixed number of jumps
17:34:13 <AnMaster> FireFly, so basically that is a mealy automaton with an input alphabet of {0,1} and same for output alphabet?
17:34:35 <AnMaster> FireFly, was that "uh maybe" to me?
17:34:36 <soupdragon> the input is always the same size as the output
17:34:38 <FireFly> AnMaster, I don't really know that much about computer science and stuff
17:34:46 <AnMaster> FireFly, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mealy_machine
17:35:38 <AnMaster> well yes given that you forbid outputting more than one symbol per transition incrementing is definitely impossible should any carry be needed.
17:35:58 <AnMaster> soupdragon, in bipoint I meant
17:36:17 <AnMaster> well okay: "should any carry for the last element be needed"
17:36:17 <soupdragon> I'm thinking it might be possible to do a binary increment in FireFlys language
17:36:20 <FireFly> AnMaster, yeah, I suppose it's something in the lines of that
17:36:29 <AnMaster> if you get rid of it before that you could manage it
17:36:31 <FireFly> soupdragon, not for values which consists of only 1
17:36:44 <FireFly> Like, incrementing 111 would mean 1000, which is an additional character
17:36:50 <FireFly> It's undefined for any string consisting of only ones
17:37:19 <AnMaster> FireFly, you could of course pad it with a zero for the MSB always
17:37:25 <FireFly> It's only for marking the start of execution, soupdragon
17:37:39 <FireFly> Padding with zeroes, that is
17:37:40 <AnMaster> soupdragon, I assume it maps to the traditonal S_0 in CS
17:37:50 <AnMaster> FireFly, you need to pad with exactly one zero
17:38:06 <FireFly> Since it's only an increment of 1
17:38:27 <AnMaster> FireFly, yes. I'm not even sure you could do full addition in it
17:38:33 <soupdragon> that might work but you need to get started, and what do you do at first??
17:38:36 <AnMaster> FireFly, maybe with interleaved bits?
17:39:02 <uorygl> Campbell, is that you?
17:39:04 <AnMaster> FireFly, can things point back to the S state?
17:39:16 <FireFly> The idea is that it can't, why?
17:39:19 <soupdragon> it's impossible to define the identity
17:39:22 <uorygl> (It's almost certainly not him.)
17:39:37 <FireFly> Well, why would you need to do that?
17:40:27 <AnMaster> FireFly, another state needed if you want just two states
17:40:40 <FireFly> If S points to a value, you just have to point straight to that value instead?
17:41:16 <AnMaster> FireFly, wait, can't you have multiple edges from a single node?
17:41:34 <FireFly> You can only have two edges, one 0 and one 1?
17:41:36 <AnMaster> you define them on the same row
17:41:48 <AnMaster> FireFly, and you output depending on state, not on transtion
17:41:56 <AnMaster> well then it isn't a mealy clearly, but a moore
17:42:06 <soupdragon> but if you were half way through a computation
17:42:13 <soupdragon> then you wanted to do identity for the rest of the data,
17:42:51 <FireFly> ..how is identity defined? :)
17:44:09 <soupdragon> turns 11101 into 00011 (read them backwards)
17:44:33 <FireFly> Yup, I guess that would work
17:46:14 <soupdragon> I think AnMasters idea for adding works too
17:46:29 <soupdragon> you might interleave the digits and outpute 0a0b0c0d
17:46:47 <FireFly> And take input the same way?
17:46:50 <FireFly> Yeah, that would probably work
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17:47:22 <AnMaster> FireFly, wait, do you define 1 to be the start state
17:47:30 <AnMaster> and then, what is the output of it?
17:47:35 <soupdragon> im using named labels instead of numbers
17:47:45 <AnMaster> FireFly, so the first state can not produce an output?
17:47:56 <FireFly> S can't produce output, that's right
17:48:11 <soupdragon> AnMaster if S had to output you couldn't write the identity
17:48:38 <soupdragon> FireFly you can define AND and OR in the same way as that ADD
17:48:50 <FireFly> I guess the start would have to preserve the first value?
17:49:05 <soupdragon> I think you can define every function Bool^n -> Crap^n-1 * Bool
17:51:21 <soupdragon> and that characterization isn't good because it only works for fixed n, but you can define programs over all n in this language
17:59:12 <AnMaster> FireFly, so the decrementing automaton is basically http://omploader.org/vMzBuNw
17:59:40 <AnMaster> where state numbers are preceded by S
17:59:58 <FireFly> Matches my hand drawn graph
18:00:04 <AnMaster> (where _ detonates same as in LaTeX)
18:00:10 <FireFly> Except that I didn't print state numbers
18:00:14 <AnMaster> FireFly, that was drawn with Dia
18:00:33 <FireFly> Better approach than ASCII art :P
18:00:59 <FireFly> Anyway, that should match the paste I posted
18:01:04 <AnMaster> FireFly, sadly didn't have predefined connections and such for state machines
18:01:12 <AnMaster> so I had to do circle, arrow and text separately
18:01:26 <AnMaster> instead of having it as a circle or arrow with special properties
18:01:43 <AnMaster> FireFly, you could use graphviz to auto generate from the code
18:01:55 <AnMaster> probably would require just a sed script
18:02:07 <FireFly> Sounds neat, I'll check that out :D
18:02:18 <AnMaster> as in, simple script to generate a .dot file for graphviz
18:02:32 <AnMaster> not sure if neato would be the best layout engine here
18:03:31 <AnMaster> since they aren't well order in a hierarchy yeah
18:03:44 <AnMaster> <FireFly> Better approach than ASCII art :P <-- yes. Mine is actually readable
18:05:12 * AnMaster decides to write a bipoint → graphviz converter and do it in a language that will be highly inconvenient for most people
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18:46:53 <AnMaster> FireFly, actually a 50 line bash script did the job
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19:01:10 <AnMaster> FireFly, do you have any larger example program?
19:07:15 <AnMaster> FireFly, what chars are valid in state names?
19:08:08 <FireFly> No negative numbers, no floats
19:08:23 <AnMaster> FireFly, you mean [:digit:]+ ?
19:08:43 <FireFly> Except I prefer Perl-style regex
19:08:50 <AnMaster> FireFly, is there an interpreter?
19:09:03 <FireFly> Categories: Languages | Unimplemented | 2009 | Unusable for programming | Stack-based | Unknown computational class | Low-level
19:09:13 <AnMaster> FireFly, it should be trivial to implement.
19:09:24 <AnMaster> FireFly, I would recommend erlang
19:09:27 <FireFly> But I don't feel like doing it atm
19:11:05 <AnMaster> FireFly, what is the official file extension?
19:12:59 <AnMaster> FireFly, http://sprunge.us/bFYU?bash
19:13:21 <AnMaster> oh wait, forgot to remove one unused variable there
19:14:58 <AnMaster> FireFly, hope that is "useful"
19:15:04 <AnMaster> maybe someone should add it to the wiki
19:15:30 <AnMaster> ais523, how would one add http://sprunge.us/bFYU?bash to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint
19:15:55 <ais523> is that a permanently up website?
19:16:01 <ais523> just add it with normal external link formatting
19:16:06 <ais523> AnMaster: does it expire?
19:16:06 <AnMaster> ais523, I have no idea if it will expire
19:16:13 <ais523> AnMaster: paste it in one that you know won't expire, then
19:16:16 <AnMaster> ais523, no clue. And I don't have my own hosting any more
19:16:21 <ais523> like pastebin.ca with expiry turned off
19:16:34 <ais523> and the format for a link is [http://example.com/website link text]
19:16:39 <AnMaster> ais523, another thing: does that count as an implementation?
19:16:51 <ais523> probably not, but it's stilly useful
19:17:03 <ais523> so it will work fine in the external resources section
19:17:09 <AnMaster> ais523, if you can help me recover my wiki account password yes
19:17:21 <ais523> AnMaster: can't be recovered, then
19:17:23 <AnMaster> won't create new, recovery is only option
19:17:27 <ais523> that's why you're supposed to set the email
19:17:32 <ais523> because it's the only way to recover
19:17:42 <AnMaster> ais523, actually I did set it. but the confirm thing didn't work
19:17:43 <ais523> either that, or you'll have to ask graue to change the stored email for you
19:17:47 <AnMaster> as in, I never got the confirm mail
19:18:43 <AnMaster> ais523, still. I should implement a "svg interpreter for this. So you have to do bipoint->graphviz->svg to interpret it
19:20:09 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway. I strongly suspect that bipoint is exactly equivalent with a More automaton with input and output alphabet {0,1} and that can only output one symbol for each input symbol
19:20:27 <AnMaster> I'm not sure about the bit that the initial state can't have output
19:20:43 <AnMaster> possibly this imposes further restrictions
19:21:03 <AnMaster> ais523, do you think that last bit affects it?
19:22:08 <ais523> not sure, I haven't really thought of it
19:22:14 <ais523> I was busy doing something completely different
19:22:21 <FireFly> Anyway, now I just got a wall of text
19:22:35 <FireFly> (that is, everything from [19:08:30]<AnMaster> FireFly, it should be trivial to implement. and below)
19:23:09 <FireFly> Uh, everything from [19:18:57]<AnMaster> FireFly, I would recommend erlang, rather
19:23:54 <FireFly> Anyway, it looks a bit interesting
19:24:28 <ais523> wow, that's quite a wall
19:25:03 <AnMaster> <ais523> and the format for a link is [http://example.com/website link text] <-- I'm well aware of course
19:25:38 <FireFly> diff AnMaster anmaster_l ?
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19:36:22 <zzo38> Computer "RPG" games are not like proper role-playing-games, they are just called that because of based on some rules in D&D and stuff like that (although there is nothing wrong with that). Can you determine which category of computer games would be more like proper-role-playing-games?
19:41:23 <zzo38> Also, some DSP, I think it should have Create Address Space command, to create interleaved address spaces?
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19:48:37 <AnMaster> ais523, did that zzo-visit make sense to you?
19:49:18 <ais523> it's two completely separate comments
19:49:23 <AnMaster> also what DSP is he referring to?
19:49:56 <AnMaster> ais523, or is there some esolang called DSP?
19:50:53 <ais523> I think he's referring to digital signal processors in general
19:51:01 <ais523> and he's invented a command that would make them more useful
19:52:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't see how interleaved address space would be so useful
19:53:00 <AnMaster> sure it might be useful for some bit shuffling operations I guess
19:54:03 <AnMaster> (but something like a "shuffle vector" seems just as useful, like SSE4.something added)
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20:28:00 <fizzie> DSPs tend to have "strange" addressing modes in general; many have a bit-reversed addressing modes for doing FFT fast.
20:28:22 <fizzie> Not sure what sort of interleaving was meant there, though.
20:30:17 <fizzie> Oh, and modulo addressing, to implement circular buffers without any explicit checks.
20:41:26 <AnMaster> whoa, some cars got stuck in snow on a road I drove on just about 15 minutes before the incident
20:41:41 <AnMaster> it was bad then but not nearly as bad
20:42:13 <coppro> probably isn't as bad as it was here two weeks ago
20:42:25 * AnMaster wonders how to translate "halka" to English
20:42:37 <coppro> first ice of the season = everyone gets caught with their summer tires on
20:42:41 <AnMaster> halkiga vägar ~ slippery roads?
20:42:42 <coppro> and it was /really/ bad ice
20:42:50 <AnMaster> well there was warning about extremely slippery roads
20:43:15 <AnMaster> by SMHI. Which handles meteorology stuff in Sweden
20:43:56 <AnMaster> <coppro> first ice of the season = everyone gets caught with their summer tires on <-- that isn't legal to drive with during winter road conditions here
20:44:06 <AnMaster> assuming it happens during winter
20:44:17 <AnMaster> as in, should it snow in June or such, it would be legal
20:44:46 <AnMaster> winter being classified as October-March or such iirc. IIRC it depends on where in Sweden
20:44:55 <ais523> in the UK, people use the same tires whatever the weather
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20:45:02 <coppro> Unfortunately, said law does not exist here :(
20:45:03 <ais523> and on really snowy days, you can't drive anywhere as a result
20:45:14 <AnMaster> ais523, but that is because 99% of the time it is just one weather: rain
20:45:30 <ais523> it rains less than half the time here
20:45:34 <ais523> just, more than most other places
20:45:42 <ais523> atm, it's slightly cloudy, for instance
20:45:46 <ais523> although it was snowing earlier
20:48:42 <AnMaster> bbl taking long exposure photo through window
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21:03:05 <fizzie> Maybe not terribly surprising that there's weathery correlation between Sweden and Finland.
21:03:50 <immibis> [09:59]<cadahl1>looks like you have some snow in norway too
21:03:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't hugin do some sort of HDR image thing by combining images with different exposures?
21:05:03 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, I think it can, but I don't know the details how to make it do that.
21:05:30 <fizzie> Presumably you just have to select the "merged and blended HDR panorama" output option.
21:06:45 <fizzie> That makes a real HDR image; there's also the enfuse thing that can output a "normal" image using different exposure layers for different parts of the image, in a "sensible" way.
21:08:53 <fizzie> I could try take some window-photography too, but I don't have a real tripod, just this mini-one, and no window ledges big enough for it, I think. I could go to the balcony, but it's far too cold for that.
21:09:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, I *do* have a real tripod :D
21:09:30 <AnMaster> one that I can actually make taller than me when all parts of it are fully extended
21:09:45 <augur> why are you not here
21:12:52 <fizzie> Yes, well, I don't really hobbyize the photography thing. I'm not even quite sure where that mini-tripod is.
21:14:07 <AnMaster> though before I do anything I need to do something about the white balance
21:15:54 <AnMaster> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
21:15:54 <AnMaster> @ WARNING: REMOTE HOST IDENTIFICATION HAS CHANGED! @
21:15:54 <AnMaster> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
21:16:12 <AnMaster> I was sshing from desktop to laptop (was debugging why sshfs refused to work)
21:23:11 <AnMaster> oh ffs, seems wrong icc profile was used
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21:27:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, before getting to somewhere where I can actually stitch it together it takes a while
21:27:51 <AnMaster> oh and ffs @ gimp failing to handle 16 bit per channels
21:28:56 <fizzie> Wasn't it supposed to do that nowadays? At least rudimentarily. Though I might remember wrongly.
21:33:21 <fizzie> AnMaster: Mini-tripod held by pushing it against the window and eight-second exposure nets you a horribly crappy image, but at least you can see some snow in it: http://zem.fi/~fis/night2.jpg
21:33:30 <fizzie> There's not even that much snow ehre, I don't know why I bothered.
21:33:43 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Wasn't it supposed to do that nowadays? At least rudimentarily. Though I might remember wrongly. <-- yes this was on jaunty however
21:34:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, you scaled that down right?
21:35:39 <fizzie> Also had some reflectiony problems. And cat problems.
21:36:55 <fizzie> 8 seconds on f/2.8 and ISO 100, to be exact. But the "keep pressing the mini-tripod against the window and try not to move" wasn't the stablest setup ever.
21:37:41 <fizzie> At least the automagic orientation-sensor handled an upside-down image correctly. I'm not sure how common case that is.
21:39:23 <fizzie> For comparison, this was taken with the phone yesterday-morning at work: http://zem.fi/g2/d/8536-1/20091216_002.jpg -- but it's been snowing somewhat steadily since then. (The picture was mostly about testing whether the gallery thing I use shows the GPS geotags somewhere. It doesn't.)
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22:57:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm now blending the final image
22:57:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, how large image file are you prepared to download and view?
22:57:44 <AnMaster> I guess 150 MB is way out of question
22:59:03 <fizzie> AnMaster: Have you blended it into some non-HDR format or what?
22:59:16 <fizzie> Lossy compression would be nice anyway.
23:00:02 <fizzie> Speaking of images, the snowfall here was pretty abrupt; last weekend it still looked like http://zem.fi/g2/v/Mobile/20091212/20091212_013.jpg.html
23:00:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, deflate TIFF. 16 bits per channel
23:00:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, and that is enfuse, not HDR
23:01:09 <fizzie> I don't have a 16-bits-per-channel display, and am not interested in manipulating the image, so why can't you just do a normal 8-bit-channel JPEG out of it for viewing?
23:04:10 <fizzie> (Away for some 15 minutes now.)
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23:11:08 * oerjan swats AnMaster back into the past -----###
23:11:31 <oerjan> no it was definitely the past when ... oh
23:11:54 <oerjan> well don't remind me, we don't want any time paradoxes
23:12:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, now I have to murder my own grandfather. However he is already dead. In fact he died before I was born.
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23:12:28 <AnMaster> (but not before my father was born)
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23:14:11 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMzBxbQ/winter_2009-12-17_small.jpg
23:14:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: no what you need to do is go back to the cretacious and stomp on a butterfly. that's traditional.
23:15:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, you may want to see that too
23:15:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, but I guess it looks like that in Norway too?
23:15:40 <fizzie> What are those dots on the left side, about two thirds down from the top? A lamp highlighting falling snow or what?
23:16:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think it is a combination of falling snow, lamps and reflections
23:16:12 <oerjan> no, we have had extremely little snow this autumn so far
23:16:25 <oerjan> there is some forecast tomorrow or so, i think
23:16:28 <fizzie> Wait, there's some sort of ghost-image of that second-floor-window window decoration thing.
23:16:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, sadly the exposure is too long to see the actual falling snow
23:16:42 <oerjan> it's quite cold today, though
23:16:45 <fizzie> Reflections, then, maybe.
23:17:18 <fizzie> It might be interesting to see one of those tone-mapped HDR images out of that scene; they always look so unrealistic, yet funky.
23:17:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, this is contrast blended
23:17:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, also: how do you do tone mapped HDR images?
23:18:27 <fizzie> No idea; there are probably several specialist tools for it.
23:19:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, I meant, surely hugin can do it?
23:19:50 <fizzie> Once it's outputted a real HDR image, it's sort of not related to the panorama-tools tasks Hugin is made for.
23:19:58 <fizzie> The wikipedia article -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_mapping -- lists a couple of tools in the "External links" section.
23:20:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, I could send you the original raw images if you want to play around with it
23:20:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, I guess your camera can't do bracketed exposures?
23:20:45 <fizzie> It can, though with a reasonably limited ranges.
23:21:01 <fizzie> I guess it was -2EV, 0, +2EV at the maximum spread, and no way of taking more than three images.
23:21:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, with a tripod you could manually do more, and use hugin to stich together them panoramawise.
23:22:23 <fizzie> I took one panorama image as three enfused layers like that, though it didn't turn out that great. Possibly because of the camera movements between shots; still no tripod here.
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23:23:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, well there is http://hugin.sourceforge.net/tutorials/enfuse-360/en.shtml
23:24:23 <fizzie> Oh, it was even worse than I remembered; it's just +-1 EV max for auto-bracketing.
23:25:24 <fizzie> I don't want to get a real tripod, because then I'd have to get a real camera too, and I don't want to go that route; I'll just leave aghhh cat get out of there.
23:25:33 <fizzie> Wait, saying that last part to IRC doesn't really work.
23:25:52 <lament> you can get a cheap tripod
23:25:55 <fizzie> Leave photography to photographers, I was going to say.
23:26:04 <lament> cheap tripods are like $20
23:26:22 <lament> and they're not something a real photographer would ever use :)
23:27:31 <fizzie> Yes, apparently so; the local computers-and-other-stuff store has some sort of max-height-1.15-meters weighs-less-than-a-kilo tripod for 22.90 eur.
23:27:53 <fizzie> The "Slik U2000" tripod; even the name says "classy" right there.
23:29:01 <AnMaster> 2 m is about nice as max height
23:29:24 <fizzie> I'm not looking for a real tripod here, you see.
23:29:40 <fizzie> If it's useless, it doesn't matter that the camera's useless too.
23:29:50 <fizzie> The current one has a height of about 0.15 m.
23:30:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, what sort of camera is it?
23:31:05 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicFZ8/
23:31:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, did your tripod come with a special bag for carrying it in?
23:31:38 <fizzie> It's a lot smaller than what the photos make it look like.
23:31:44 <fizzie> I don't think it came.
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23:31:48 <fizzie> If it did, I've misplaced it.
23:31:59 <fizzie> I had some trouble locating the tripod itself, to be honest.
23:32:35 <AnMaster> I don't seem to be able to locate model number
23:33:14 <fizzie> Mooz has a neato Manfrotto panorama head; the thing you mount on a tripod so that the camera can be rotated the "correct" way, and you don't need to do much image-processing in the stitching phase. Well, after you've calibrated the thing for the particular lens and other settings, I guess.
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23:35:28 <fizzie> To partially eat and regurgitate my previous words; the DMC-FZ8 is a reasonably nice camera for the class it's in; it's just that the tiny little sensors they use in the non-DSLR-style cameras have some physical limitations as to what can be done with them.
23:35:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, also it is quite short when the telescopic things are in smallest position. Around 40 cm or so I guess
23:37:14 <fizzie> The amazing Slik U2000 is 48 cm when in the carrying-around mode. (I guess that's the total length, not height-from-base-when-the-three-legs-are-spread-out-and-in-the-shortest-position.
23:40:12 <fizzie> There seem to be a metric gazillion of other various cheapo-tripods from a manufacturer called "Velbon". Those at least look a tiny bit less silly. (For example the counterpart to the Slik U2000, the Velbon DF-40/F -- see, even the name is more impressive by far -- costs 4 euros more, but the height range is 0.51-1.45 m. And it's black, not shiny-aluminum. See, these are the *important* points here; name and colour.)
23:45:39 <lament> fizzie: unfortunately, the most important thing about tripods is weight :)
23:45:57 <fizzie> More or less is better, though?
23:46:09 <lament> Real tripods are heavy.
23:46:23 <lament> There's no other way to ensure stability.
23:46:28 <fizzie> Right, well, that weighs a hundred grams more than the Slik, too!
23:46:40 <lament> but it also means it's heavier :)
23:46:51 <lament> real tripods are a pain to carry
23:47:24 <fizzie> Yes, well, you just have to spend even more money to hire a tripod-carrying slave too, I guess.
23:47:27 <AnMaster> lament, also you can ensure stability with wide enough apart legs
23:47:47 <AnMaster> it would be incredibly awkward
23:48:27 <lament> you can also tie a sandbag to the middle tube
23:48:30 <fizzie> You can ensure stability by building a brick-and-mortar wall to put your camera on wherever you need it. Though I guess the building materials have a bit of a weight problem. Among other (problems).
23:49:39 <fizzie> I'd like to find some picturesque-enough spot so that I could take a set of night-, morning-, day- and evening-panoramas (for the full 360° circle) from the same point, align the images, then blend out of them a "looping" 3200x480 image so that each 800x480 quadrant has a specific theme, yet they still blend sort-of seamlessly together.
23:49:49 <fizzie> (I need a picture like that for the N900 desktop background.)
23:53:05 <fizzie> It's the screen size of the phone; the background sort of has to be that height. Of course the actual photos can be larger.
23:53:35 <fizzie> (Actually I think I'd like a winter/spring/summer/autumn panorama set from a same point more, but taking that would take, well, almost a year, by definition.)
23:57:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, by taking the whole panorama each day you could make the blending really seamless!
23:57:21 <lament> because the weather never changes!
23:58:04 <AnMaster> lament, well duh he would have to select good ones from it
23:58:16 <AnMaster> also after a few years you should have good versions of all
23:58:31 <lament> after a few centuries it will start to look really awesome
23:59:29 * AnMaster puts this on his todo list under the heading "if I ever become immortal and is bored"
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00:07:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well anyway, you probably also got the message from MKRY so could you forward it to me, I think thunderbird ate it as I was drag-and-dropping it
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01:30:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's D&D 350, don't forget the new alternative version
01:31:13 <oerjan> (for quicker access without spoiling, the previous one was http://www.darthsanddroids.net/sandalsandspartans/0050.html)
01:32:32 <oerjan> (that page has also changed, as usual when a new one arrives)
01:46:28 <uorygl> So, it seems like this is true:
01:46:42 <uorygl> Practice turns something overwhelming into something not overwhelming. It does not turn something tedious into something not tedious.
01:46:59 <uorygl> Arithmetic is tedious. How can we make it overwhelming instead so that we can practice until it's neither?
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10:18:38 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well anyway, you probably also got the message from MKRY so could you forward it to me, I think thunderbird ate it as I was drag-and-dropping it <-- *checks mail*
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10:27:08 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: it's D&D 350, don't forget the new alternative version <-- ??
10:27:31 <AnMaster> <oerjan> (for quicker access without spoiling, the previous one was http://www.darthsanddroids.net/sandalsandspartans/0050.html) <-- ooh they updated it again.
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11:06:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, *looks for Deewiant email*
11:07:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you handle PGP/MIME?
11:09:34 <AnMaster> also this means mirroring his site I guess
11:10:35 <Deewiant> I doubt anybody'll be interested in actually "taking over" and continuing work on it, but yeah, mirroring it can certainly be done
11:11:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, at least if it goes away it will be useful to have the fingerprint specs around
11:11:28 <AnMaster> also what does he mean not being around much longer
11:11:42 <Deewiant> He certainly suggests he's dying
11:11:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, we all are. At some point
11:12:17 <Deewiant> He's suggesting "now" not "at some point"
11:12:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, could be "out of job so can't pay internet bills" or such
11:13:32 <Deewiant> Beats me and I don't really care
11:13:34 <AnMaster> hm maybe it would be a good idea to send a mail saying that one feels sorry for him or something
11:14:35 <AnMaster> wget --mirror http://www.rcfunge98.com/
11:21:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: Speaking of photography efforts, here's the view from the window next to my office, with the N900 camera in the full-auto mode (it's not like it has very many settings anyway, though I certainly could've fixed the white balance at least) and hugin+enfuse with absolutely no tweaking (had to use it with X11 forwarding over ADSL, not such a pleasant experience): http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk2.jpg
11:21:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, tried firefox with X11 forwarding over ADSL?
11:22:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, is that image HDR you said?
11:23:36 <fizzie> Well, with just enblending them together (with the default exposure optimization) I got http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk.jpg -- doing the fused-and-blended option results in the a-lot-better tkk2.jpg.
11:24:29 <fizzie> Deewiant probably recognizes the place, too.
11:27:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk.jpg looks like the snow is contaminated with neon lights or something
11:30:06 <fizzie> Yes. Well, there *is* quite a large variance in the lightness levels of the sky/sunshine parts and the shadowed-by-the-building ground.
11:30:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes indeed, and 8 bits isn't enough to represent this properly
11:30:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, which is why the trees look like they do in ttk.jph
11:31:50 <fizzie> The phone has a fixed-aperture f/2.8 lens and you can't set the shutter speed manually. (Well, you *can* in a technical sense, it's certainly programmable, but not in the camera application.) The "exposure" setting dialog just lets you add a -2 .. +2EV offset to whatever the automatics suggest.
11:33:07 <fizzie> It's a *phone*, not a camera. Most phones have a fixed-aperture lens. Though there are some exceptions. (The N86, or so I hear. And presumably those which stick 8- or 10-meggopixel sensors in there.)
11:33:56 <fizzie> For the record, the shutter speed in source images varies from 1/1000 to 1/100 seconds.
11:34:26 <anmaster_l> I strongly suspect they will get worse images than my 9 megapixel minolta
11:35:09 <fizzie> Sure, but one would hope that they pay attention to other parts of the camera too, if they bother increasing the resolution. (Admittedly it might also be just mostly a marketing trick.)
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11:36:04 <anmaster_l> fizzie, shutter speed for images I took is reported in exif as 6, 8, 15
11:36:53 <fizzie> I think that's in milliseconds, but I'm not sure. The ExposureTime field is in seconds, if your camera adds that.
11:37:39 <fizzie> Well, maybe it's either unstandardized, or your viewer converts them to the same units.
11:37:46 <fizzie> Or were those the long-exposure shots?
11:38:24 <fizzie> I was using "exiv2 -p v print" because they haven't installed exiftool on these work-Ubuntus.
11:38:30 <anmaster_l> fizzie, hm? well I used "automatic bracketing" + manual setting to 8 seconds (forgot what I set the aperture to)
11:39:02 <fizzie> Maybe that's directly converted in seconds then.
11:39:51 <anmaster_l> fizzie, hm with exiv2 I get these strange lines:
11:39:55 <AnMaster> PICT1260.tif 0x829a Photo ExposureTime Rational 1 80/10
11:40:01 <AnMaster> PICT1261.tif 0x829a Photo ExposureTime Rational 1 60/10
11:40:04 <AnMaster> PICT1262.tif 0x829a Photo ExposureTime Rational 1 150/10
11:40:20 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it is; seen with exiftool, those N900 images also show the same units for "Shutter Speed" and "Exposure Time".
11:40:22 <AnMaster> there is no shutter thing there when I grep
11:40:44 <fizzie> Image metadata is a strange, unstandardized and messy world.
11:40:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, exiftool *did* report shutter speed
11:41:19 <fizzie> It might be deducing it from the Exposure Time field, because they're the same.
11:41:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, of course it is possible ufraw messed it up somehow
11:41:49 <fizzie> You can use "exiftool -e" to make it report only things it finds from the image.
11:42:05 <fizzie> Without the "composite" values it knows how to compute from multiple sources.
11:42:29 <AnMaster> nop, not in the *.thm or *.mrw files either (one is a tiny jpeg preview the other the raw file, no idea why the camerate generates those *.thm files)
11:43:00 <fizzie> Anyway, that ExposureTime tag should (if I have understood it right) be in seconds always; 80/10 = 8 seconds sounds reasonable.
11:43:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, so how does that store 1/1000 or such?
11:44:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, is it stored as a fraction rather than a float?
11:44:42 <fizzie> A binary float wouldn't represent most of the available speeds exactly anyway.
11:44:52 <fizzie> The "Rational" there is the field type.
11:44:54 <AnMaster> $ exiftool -e PICT1260.tif | wc -l
11:45:07 <AnMaster> that was the base image (middle of bracketing)
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11:45:30 <AnMaster> without -e I get 109 lines instead
11:45:34 <fizzie> This N900 file also has "Exposure Time" of 1/500 and a strange "Shutter Speed Value" of 1/256.
11:45:48 <AnMaster> for the .MRW I get 101 lines with -e
11:46:39 <fizzie> And what exiftool reports as "Shutter Speed Value: 1/256", exiv2 instead reports as ShutterSpeedValue of type SRational (signed fraction?) of 8/1, so...
11:47:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://sprunge.us/HYQP?diff
11:47:10 <AnMaster> diff -Naur <(exiftool -e PICT1260.MRW | sort -n) <(exiftool -e PICT1260.tif | sort -n)
11:48:34 <fizzie> Some of the changes make sense (Bayer Pattern doesn't make much sense except for the raw image), but it's a bit strange that Bracket Step goes from 2/3 EV to "Unknown (4266731520)".
11:48:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, well so does color mode
11:48:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is "Bayer Pattern" btw?
11:49:13 <fizzie> The pixel arrangement on the sensor.
11:49:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, and the brightness thing too
11:49:48 <fizzie> It's a rectangular grid, usually they put for each 2x2 square R and B on the corners, and two Gs on the cross-diagonal, so to say.
11:50:29 <fizzie> It had something to do with the luminosity of it, but I don't remember the details.
11:50:40 <fizzie> Some cameras add a fourth-color sensor there. Red-green-blue-"emerald" was I think some marketing term.
11:50:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh see there: exif byte order changed
11:50:55 <AnMaster> from big endian to little endian
11:50:57 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGBE_filter
11:51:03 <AnMaster> perhaps it failed to byteswap some stuff
11:51:14 * AnMaster wonders if that would result in sensible values
11:51:36 <fizzie> It's possible it didn't byteswap values it didn't understand.
11:52:01 <fizzie> And I'm pretty sure they call that fourth color "emerald" instead of "cyan" because it sounds a lot more blingy.
11:52:38 <fizzie> "twice as many green elements as red or blue to mimic the human eye's greater resolving power with green light[citation needed]"
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11:54:58 <AnMaster> 121 +Minolta Time : 52224:42:00
11:55:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do I dump the raw integer value for a given exif tag?
11:58:26 <fizzie> "exiv2 -p h print file.jpg" might work.
11:58:36 <fizzie> It hexdumps the tag data values under the normal output.
11:58:55 <fizzie> I'm not sure how to tease that info out from exiftool, if it's even possible.
12:05:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah some of those values are in "---- MakerNotes ----" when you use -g to exiftool
12:05:58 <AnMaster> which exiv2 doesn't seem to understand
12:06:21 <AnMaster> PICT1258.MRW 0x927c Photo MakerNote Undefined 38270 (Binary value suppressed)
12:06:28 <AnMaster> all the messed up values seems to be there
12:07:10 <fizzie> Oh, okay, Well, those are even more nonstandard.
12:07:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, or at least the majority of the messed up values
12:08:02 <AnMaster> so it failed to byteswap it hm
12:08:28 <fizzie> That would be quite much to ask, to be able to byteswap all the possible MakerNotes structures.
12:09:04 <fizzie> Exiftool can't read the N900 MakerNote tag at all. "Warning: [minor] Unrecognized MakerNotes"
12:09:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, it *could* keep the byte order
12:09:23 <AnMaster> use whatever the file already had
12:09:29 <AnMaster> at least if tiff allows big endian exif
12:11:40 <fizzie> The N900 MakerNote is exactly 4 kilobytes long, and seems (from a cursory look-through) completely random, except for some bias for smallish byte values in the first 16 bytes or so. I wonder what they've put there.
12:14:55 <fizzie> "Maker Note contains some information about the parameters but it is encrypted and encoded and currently algorithm for decoding it is not public."
12:15:16 <fizzie> (From the Maemo forums.)
12:20:33 <AnMaster> <fizzie> That would be quite much to ask, to be able to byteswap all the possible MakerNotes structures. <-- considering that it needs to understand the specific raw format already to be able to convert it...
12:23:06 <fizzie> Okay, there is that. Still, some more extra work. But not byte-swapping the tags at all sounds sensible; then it's the reader's problem to understand it.
12:24:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, you can fix it with exiftool though
12:24:43 <AnMaster> exiftool -tagsfromfile PICT1260.MRW '-makernotes:all' PICT1260.tif
12:37:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw in http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk2.jpg there is something strange going on in the upper part
12:37:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, I suspect you need more control points there
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12:43:02 <fizzie> AnMaster: What's going on is probably just parallax movement caused by the phone moving around, and I'm not quite sure it's perfectly fixable without getting the actual meaningful content out of line a bit. Maybe if I added some lenses in hugin so that it could optimize per-image x- and y- displacements, but I doubt I'd bother. Certainly not with the X-forwarding.
12:43:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, I managed to fix up parallax by adding more control points where it was noticable
12:43:53 <AnMaster> was on some landscape picture from Lappland
12:44:10 <fizzie> I don't want to try manual control point editing with this setup, anyway. Maybe at home.
12:44:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, how did you add control points then?
12:44:46 <fizzie> Autopano-sift-C or whatever it's called, I forget exactly.
12:44:53 <AnMaster> hm. the auto adding never worked well for me
12:45:15 <AnMaster> as in, birds in sky being selected and as they moved between the pictures: result was disaster
12:45:29 <AnMaster> stuff like that always happened to me
12:46:00 <fizzie> It creates quite many of messed-up control points, but on average most of them tend to be good. At least when there's not *that* much moving stuff.
12:46:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, well it tends to be easy to add manual good ones in my experience
12:46:45 <fizzie> It's not easy if window-redrawing when you click on anything takes a minute or two.
12:46:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, and once you have three or so it manages to auto suggest the correct placement of more manual ones quite well
12:47:10 <fizzie> But sure, I did manual control point placement for those vacation photo panoramas too.
12:47:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, you often seem to need to add exactly one horizontal and one vertical line to get a plausible orientation on the output image
12:48:10 <AnMaster> at least I had to on this HDR image
12:48:16 <AnMaster> and they weren't really much off
12:48:33 <AnMaster> iirc hugin calculated that on average the difference between them was 1-2 pixels
12:48:50 <fizzie> That tkk2.jpg is a bit tilted.
12:49:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, it's fish-eye too, no?
12:49:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, also vertical/horizontal is added by selecting same picture for left/right and then adding a pair of point that are not in the same place but rather along the same vertical or horizontal line
12:53:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw krita seems to manage 16 bits per channel
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12:57:32 <fizzie> I've done the horizontal/vertical-line trickery for perspective-correcting some "took a picture of a floor mosaic at an oblique angle" pictures; there's a tutorial about it.
13:00:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you just use one vertical and one horizontal line it seems to result in rotational fix only, rather than perspective correction as well
13:00:16 <AnMaster> at least I guess if they are at a 90 degree angle to each other
13:00:45 <AnMaster> in fact a single vertical line was enough in that photo from yesterday
13:01:05 <AnMaster> along the pole (or whatever it is called) of the central street light
13:02:03 <fizzie> I guess so; I added multiple in the perspective-correction ones.
13:03:31 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/g2/d/7368-2/p1030278.jpg -> http://zem.fi/g2/d/7733-2/mosaic-2-perspective.jpg
13:05:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, looks worse at the top though
13:05:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, possibly taking one from the opposite direction and stitching them together would have helped
13:06:05 <AnMaster> not sure even hugin can handle that though
13:06:28 <fizzie> Possibly, but you couldn't go there. The picture was taken through the bars of a steel gate.
13:06:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, isn't there asphalt at the other end?
13:07:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, possibly you could have gone around?
13:07:39 <fizzie> It looks like asphalt, but I really don't think it's that. It's from Pompeii.
13:08:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, very low res pic that original
13:08:05 <AnMaster> unless you scaled it down afterwards
13:08:06 <asiekierka> Is there a chance we can get back on esolangous topics?
13:09:09 <AnMaster> hm maybe one could write a language based on HDR merging images
13:09:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: You'll be wanting http://zem.fi/g2/d/7367-1/p1030278.jpg and http://zem.fi/g2/d/7732-1/mosaic-2-perspective.jpg for the unscaled images; I was just thinking of my poor ADSL line there. :p
13:10:48 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I'm not sure how to make this an interesting esolang though
13:11:45 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well I can't think of a way to do computation in it
13:11:56 <asiekierka> i want to make an esolang related to paper cards
13:12:02 <asiekierka> preferably one that runs with hardware
13:12:19 <AnMaster> basically, think of a 2D language stored in image
13:12:33 <AnMaster> then store it as one of those weird panorma projections
13:12:37 <fizzie> "Unable to connect" says fungot. I guess orwell.freenode.net is down.
13:12:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't you use the round robin?
13:13:07 <fizzie> No, I want a geographical neighbour, not some random round-robin server.
13:13:21 <AnMaster> asiekierka, use equvirectangual(sp?) projection
13:13:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: Besides, the round-robin is DNS-based, and fungot only accepts IP numbers. (Since I was trying to get by with just SOCK.)
13:14:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, so change the file to use another server
13:14:37 <fizzie> Oh, it'll be back. But I guess I could do a temporary change.
13:14:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, perspective correction makes the image lose some of the sharpness sadly
13:14:58 <asiekierka> [mempointer] <- [some sort of calculation]
13:15:04 <AnMaster> well, that's unavoidable of course
13:15:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think allowing tilting ccd in the camera directly (relative the lens) would allow some sharp perspective correction
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13:17:15 <fizzie> I... guess it should be possible, yes. Not sure if the lens imperfections get worse that way, though. Maybe not by much.
13:17:43 <AnMaster> asiekierka, why not prove if http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint is equivalent of a Moore automaton with input and output alphabet {0,1} and that can only output one symbol at a time?
13:17:57 <AnMaster> but there are some further restrictions on the langauge:
13:18:11 <AnMaster> all state except the starting state *must* produce output
13:18:22 <AnMaster> the start state *can't* produce output
13:18:41 <AnMaster> and I'm not sure if they matter for computational class
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13:18:48 <fizzie> Heh, my firewall rules from the fungot server prohibit IRC connections in general, except to that one freenode server. (You can never be too careful!)
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13:19:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, would you say this looks like a painting or a photo? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Hdr-Ithacafalls2.jpg
13:20:02 <AnMaster> asiekierka, did you see what I said above about Bipoint?
13:20:12 <asiekierka> <AnMaster> the start state *can't* produce output - up to this
13:20:21 <asiekierka> i still don't get what a Moore automation is
13:20:21 <AnMaster> asiekierka, ah there was one more line:
13:20:23 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> and I'm not sure if they matter for computational class
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13:20:33 <AnMaster> asiekierka, a Moore automaton is one class of a FSM
13:20:52 <asiekierka> you don't need output or input to COMPUTE
13:20:52 <AnMaster> asiekierka, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_machine
13:21:10 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well in fact you do here, since you only have a state, no other memory
13:21:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: It looks unreal, at the very least. But funky.
13:21:59 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and the state changes exactly once per input symbokl
13:22:11 <AnMaster> soupdragon, I think asiekierka is thinking of brainfuck style IO.
13:22:19 <AnMaster> where the IO is indeed not needed
13:22:32 <AnMaster> but the IO is rather different for a state machine
13:23:50 <asiekierka> yeah i am unable to do stuff like this
13:25:00 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I can't see why you couldn't implement it with TTL
13:25:34 <asiekierka> it's chips that do various simple stuff
13:25:43 <AnMaster> I would probably go for a simpler state machine
13:27:09 <asiekierka> there's that guy who made a machine with GFX
13:27:12 <AnMaster> possibly. As I said: no expert on TTL or any other such hardware
13:28:51 <AnMaster> asiekierka, winding wires around metal rods, rather than soldering
13:29:03 <asiekierka> http://www.stevechamberlin.com/cpu/about/
13:30:04 <AnMaster> asiekierka, ah I was thinking about http://www.homebrewcpu.com/
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13:44:54 <fizzie> Ho-hum, exported a slide containing a spreadsheet object, from an OpenOffice Impress presentation, as a PDF file. The labels are all right, but I have a small suspicion there's something wrong with the numbers: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/numb3rs.png
13:46:22 <fizzie> They're still the correct numbers, but for some reason the digits have changed to the arabic-indic ones.
13:53:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, that's a very strange error
13:53:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, tell me if you find the cause
13:55:24 <fizzie> I changed the font used in the tables from Liberation Sans (which was the default) to Bitstream Vera Sans, and the problem disappeared. Who knows.
13:56:25 <fizzie> The slide is supposed to be merged as a part of a real MS-PowerPoint presentation, I'm not very confident the OLE-embedded spreadsheet object will survive that. I sent it as .odp, .ppt and .pdf in the hopes that at least one of them is usable.
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16:06:37 <asiekierka> just... i'm not sure if i'm doing it good
16:08:24 <asiekierka> [mempointer] <- [math operation, like "+1" or "*42"]
16:09:57 <asiekierka> to access memory inside of a math operation, you have to use $, as in "$0"
16:10:42 <asiekierka> [function name] <- [start line,end line,params]
16:11:03 <asiekierka> for example, a function which starts on line 3 and ends on line 5 inclusive, with 1 param you do
16:11:33 <asiekierka> In the function, values @A to @Z are params or temp values
16:11:53 <asiekierka> To jump you need to make an uppercase JUMP DESCRIPTOR
16:12:10 <asiekierka> this defines a jump descriptor "A" which jumps to the next line if called
16:13:10 <asiekierka> If 0 is greater than(>)/equal to(=)/inequal to(<>)/less than(<) x, it jumps to where jump descriptor A points
16:13:19 <asiekierka> al stands for always, ne stands for never
16:14:31 <asiekierka> so for example to make a loop that decreases cell 0 until it's zero, you do
16:14:58 <asiekierka> Of course, you could just do "0 <- $0", but... yeah.
16:24:07 <AnMaster> similar to asm in some aspects yes, different notation though
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22:30:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, trying yet another usage for hugin: noise reduction.
22:30:25 <AnMaster> while still keeping image sharp
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22:36:02 <augur> my new favorite quote: "Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off."
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22:40:59 <augur> it was dawkins quoting an editor from new scientist
22:41:26 <augur> also, who the fuck are you
22:44:34 <AnMaster> augur, he has been in here a bit
22:47:28 <Pthing> on the other hand, he seems to be one of the annoying people who not only use ignore functions but loudly announce it too
22:48:41 <augur> like q. quite and v. very
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22:54:21 <augur> just tell him i answered already, pthing
22:54:27 <Pthing> augur already explained
22:54:57 <soupdragon> Pthing, why are you making such a big deal out of this
22:55:19 <soupdragon> Pthing, I only asked that to make it obvious that it's you making a big deal out of this -- because I already know why
22:55:40 <Pthing> so long as everything's clear
22:56:15 <augur> CLEAR LIKE AN ALDEBEREN HOUND
22:56:24 <anmaster_l> <Pthing> on the other hand, he seems to be one of the annoying people who not only use ignore functions but loudly announce it too ← indeed
22:56:55 <soupdragon> <soupdragon> Pthing it's not like I made a big deal of it - I just told him because I wanted him to get that he was being an asshole and seems mean to let him talk and talk to me if I am not listening
22:56:55 <soupdragon> <Pthing> big enough of a deal to send a PM!
22:56:55 <soupdragon> <soupdragon> Pthing also you're saying this like it's something I've done before... but don't think I have?
22:56:55 <soupdragon> <soupdragon> you brought it up again like it bothered you
22:56:59 <soupdragon> <soupdragon> if you just said nothing I don't think I would have either
22:57:09 <Pthing> i'm glad this isn't a big deal
22:57:18 <soupdragon> anmaster_l, since you seem to care about it so much too -- I would have just stopped talking about it if you lot were goading me about it again and again
22:57:35 <anmaster_l> I'm not going to get involved in this fight
22:57:50 <soupdragon> anmaster_l, then why are you going "← indeed"?
22:58:00 <soupdragon> anmaster_l, seems to me like you /are/
22:58:11 <Pthing> are forbidden by the geneva convention
22:58:13 <soupdragon> anmaster_l, the alternative would have been not say anything
22:58:21 <anmaster_l> Pthing, err are // around forbidden? That is what I saw?
22:59:08 <anmaster_l> soupdragon, You are confusing two things 1) I agreed with the comment I responded with "indeed" to. 2) I was not about to get involved in the "big deal" discussion.
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23:21:11 <AnMaster> yay networking over firewire is fun
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02:58:20 <oerjan> Cu: C is carbon. that would just be wrong.
02:58:42 <Cu> just wanted to see if it was registered
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04:50:49 <uorygl> I'm having a sudden urge to write a Thue compiler.
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12:25:21 <Ilari> uorygl: Thue to X86 executable compiler?
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19:30:12 <uorygl> Ilari: something like that.
19:30:20 <uorygl> Thue to language-not-at-all-similar-to-Thue compiler.
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19:34:31 <Ilari> Bonus points for writing replacement instructions all inline without using libraries.
19:35:17 <Ilari> Probably the hardest part is identifying all the possible rewrites and making random choice...
19:36:43 <uorygl> That's not necessarily, I think.
19:37:08 <uorygl> I mean, does the Thue spec say the choice is "unspecified", "nondeterministic", or "random"?
19:38:45 <lament> is the choice of the choice unspecified, nondeterministic, or random?
19:40:08 <uorygl> AnMaster: something like that, yeah.
19:40:16 <uorygl> Well, yes, it would be that.
19:40:55 <Ilari> Probably the way to pick random choice with smallest memory usage would be to make first pass over string, counting the possiblities. Then generate random number and do that manyth replacement.
19:47:12 <uorygl> Since it doesn't need to be a uniform distribution; every replacement simply needs to have a positive probability.
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20:17:10 <AnMaster> uorygl, thue -> brainfuck? though you can't optimise much then
20:17:19 <AnMaster> might be better to do thue → non-esolang
20:17:38 <AnMaster> like, say, C (if you want to be portable) or x86_64 linux asm (if you don't)
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20:18:22 <AnMaster> uorygl, hm thue is self modifying right?
20:18:40 <AnMaster> or do I misremember which one thue is
20:18:46 <uorygl> No, Thue is matrioshka.
20:20:16 <AnMaster> uorygl, is there any thue interpreter in thue?
20:28:42 <zzo38> Can a generalization of the INTERCAL select operator be used in digital signal processing?
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20:46:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I thought you worked at same university or something?
20:46:56 <Deewiant> I don't work there, I study there
20:47:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well okay. but apart from that
20:47:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ever met fizzie there?
20:47:21 <Deewiant> I went to his master's thesis presentation, but not otherwise
20:47:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think I beat him at the panorama thing now.
20:48:31 <AnMaster> 42 source images (raw formats).
20:51:24 <uorygl> A Thue interpreter in Thue might be difficult.
20:54:10 <uorygl> Hey, C-- was co-designed by Simon Peyton Jonse.
20:57:53 <zzo38> AnMaster: I mean you can have a command CAS (Create Address Space) and CTT (Complex Table Translate), and some generaliation of INTERCAL select used to create the address spaces. And then you can have other commands for quick loop and operation on entire memory, etc
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21:00:20 <zzo38> Do you think they would be useful in digital signal processing, though? (both in audio and video, and others)
21:16:00 <AnMaster> zzo38, I know too little about DSP to be able to answer that question
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21:16:42 <AnMaster> zzo38, I generally use such programs (right now for example, batch converting some 40 RAW images)
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21:30:48 <uorygl> What are we DSPing, now?
21:46:07 <AnMaster> uorygl, I think zzo was talking about DSP in general
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23:26:44 <Gregor> Guest50560: Is 213.171.218.196 loading for you?
23:27:25 <Gregor> Guest50560: That wasn't a solution, it was a diagnostic.
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23:27:54 <Gregor> http://esolangs.org/wiki/FYB
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23:30:15 <Gregor> Good, I'M the only one who can have their first name as a nick 'round here!
23:31:46 <Guest5186> stupid dsorganise irc keeps crashing
23:35:46 <Guest5186> me too but i recently wiped everything thanks to a software bug
23:38:11 <Asztal> Did DSorganise mess up your file system too?
23:38:47 <Guest5186> i cant remember if it was dsorganise or something else
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23:39:32 <Guest5186> there used to be a decnt list of ds homebrew on wikipedia but they removed it
23:40:08 <Gregor> I wonder what would compel someone to name a piece of software (essentially) "disorganise"
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23:46:07 <oerjan> <uorygl> A Thue interpreter in Thue might be difficult. <-- i looked at doing a thue interpreter in /// / itflabijtslwi[sp] but sort of lost interest because thue has such arbitrarily restricted input (only whole lines and no way to prevent input injection by colliding with the program code) so it is essentially _less_ useful
23:52:56 <AnMaster> <Guest5186> me too but i recently wiped everything thanks to a software bug <-- guess: not a linux user
23:53:28 <AnMaster> (at least assuming this is about PCs)
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00:01:51 <Gregor> Maybe he's referring to the DS :P
00:02:05 <Asztal> In my case the microSD card's file system got corrupted.
00:02:34 <Asztal> It being FAT32 probably didn't help :(
00:03:54 <immibis> dsorganise is good but the filesystem corruption and crashes aren't...
00:04:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: ghosts and their suffering
00:07:19 <AnMaster> Asztal, restore it from backup?
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00:17:12 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: technically
00:18:59 * Sgeo_ got Windows working again!
00:19:24 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, you shall have to maintain rcfunge!
00:19:52 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, using emacs on the iphone!
00:20:09 <ehirdiphone> But seriously: may his stardust go on to compose wonderful things.
00:20:39 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, but seriously, why not maintain it. After all, didn't you like it?
00:21:40 <ehirdiphone> I just responded to unwarranted hate of him and RC/Funge98.
00:22:30 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, so things haven't been sorted out yet?
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00:24:01 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, how much secondary storage does the iphone have?
00:25:23 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: The iPhone only has one storage.
00:25:57 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, and a memory card slot I guess?
00:26:11 * Sgeo_ is so glad that the malware didn't affect his ability to access the registry
00:26:57 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, depends on what you will use it for
00:27:00 <Sgeo_> SimonRC, regedit works, and the change I made to allow myself to access the task manager works
00:27:12 <Sgeo_> Unless this thing is so complex that it's letting me _think_ it's working
00:27:16 <AnMaster> well for music as you said, it is not nearly enough
00:27:33 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I assume cd-quality flac here
00:27:46 <SimonRC> but there a standard ways to protect processes from Task Manager, or even Process Explorer
00:28:00 <SimonRC> things like anti-virus programs use them
00:28:00 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, doesn't apple have their own loseless format?
00:28:16 <Sgeo_> This piece of work apparently went for the "disable the task manager" option
00:28:23 <Sgeo_> I really really doubt that it's still active
00:28:40 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, you can plug in good headphones, can't you?
00:28:49 <ehirdiphone> It's not archival, so use high quality lossy. Indistinguishable.
00:28:52 <AnMaster> well maybe the circuitry can't deliver good sound
00:29:15 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Sorry, you cannot distinguish 256 Kbps AAC and lossless.
00:29:24 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I never claimed I could
00:29:41 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, it is just a matter of principles
00:30:24 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I don't have your email
00:31:19 <SimonRC> ehirdiphone: by "send me" I assume you meant "send the world"
00:31:42 <ehirdiphone> I wonder whether I should get a laptop or a desktop. My principles say laptop, but OMG MOAR PIXELS
00:31:50 <SimonRC> ( http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D )
00:32:04 <SimonRC> what is so great about laptops?
00:32:18 <SimonRC> ah, I mis-read those lines
00:32:27 <SimonRC> I thought that was AnMaster's reply
00:32:37 <ehirdiphone> SimonRC: All my work and environment weighing a couple of kilos as a physical object.
00:32:54 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I will send it if you keep it private. Reason is simple: I don't know if MKRY would like it.
00:33:09 <ehirdiphone> Portable anywhere, usable in any orientation I desire.
00:33:43 <ehirdiphone> I only worry that he might be committing suicide.
00:33:49 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, and I hope you can handle PGP/MIME :P
00:33:58 <AnMaster> because that is what I sent it as (signed)
00:34:07 <AnMaster> and no I won't resend as non-PGP/MIME
00:34:26 <ehirdiphone> Gmail will probably just show it as plaintext.
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00:36:06 <SimonRC> your immediately preceding line
00:36:17 <ehirdiphone> SimonRC: Also: laptops from good companies are a more tightly integrated computer than desktops.
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00:36:38 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Http://gmail.com go go gadget link tap <-- ?
00:36:52 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: It just shows your message. I will try with MobileMail.
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00:37:04 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, it was an attachment
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00:37:47 <AnMaster> he certainly types fast for being on a phone...
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00:38:32 <SimonRC> yeah, it's like Homestuck or something
00:38:39 <ehirdiphone> He signed it MKRY. I feel distinctly guilty.
00:39:03 <ehirdiphone> That opener, though — he certainly thinks you hate him.
00:39:31 <ehirdiphone> Doesn't seem like the happiest bloke around...
00:40:05 <ehirdiphone> http://rcfunge98.com/ for my tapping. Gonna see if he's put anything on the site.
00:40:20 <SimonRC> heh, also I mis-interpreted "his email"
00:40:31 <SimonRC> I thought that meant email *address*
00:41:06 <SimonRC> how do you type so fast on an iPhone?
00:41:12 <ehirdiphone> That, I think, shall be my next question. If MKRY is going to kill himself, well, I'd rather he didn't.
00:41:41 <ehirdiphone> Also, dunno. The auto-corrector helps a lot.
00:42:00 <ehirdiphone> As does the two spaces to make a new sentence.
00:43:07 <ehirdiphone> Not that I feel like writing an email on this thing.
00:43:13 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, it is in the forwarded message
00:43:29 <ehirdiphone> SimonRC: Oh, and the primary skill for iPhone typing is sheer fearlessness!
00:43:30 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, look in the header of the forwarded attachment
00:44:09 <ehirdiphone> If you never think you make mistakes and just keep typing, it'll all work out fine for the mostpart.
00:44:12 <SimonRC> I don't suppose you can get FITALY for that thing can you?
00:44:40 <ehirdiphone> SimonRC: No. Fitaly is for styluses anyway.
00:44:56 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, no IMAP client app?
00:45:11 <SimonRC> how many digits do you use to type?
00:45:13 <ehirdiphone> Gmail web won't budge. The native app just unlined the text.
00:46:57 <SimonRC> I would consider fitaly suitable for a single finger the same way it is for a stylus
00:47:02 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I ask you to guess why I'm currently in a directory containing 1.6 GB image taken without moving the camera.
00:47:14 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, reading logs is cheating
00:47:59 <AnMaster> it isn't all direct though, I think when I actually transferred it from the camera it was "just" 1 GB
00:48:08 <ehirdiphone> SimonRC: Perhaps. My intense familiarity with QWERTY probably trumps its advantages.
00:48:46 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, that's rather vague. what to do with exposure in that case
00:48:53 <ehirdiphone> I cought the start of that conversation. Didn't get to testing, though, just discussion.
00:49:48 <ehirdiphone> int main(){printf("Hello, world!"); return 0;}
00:50:13 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> I cought the start of that conversation. Didn't get to testing, though, just discussion. <-- ?
00:51:54 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well 1.6 GB is: 4 identical shots (for noise reduction by enfuse to average them) * 10 different shutter speeds
00:52:20 <AnMaster> but there is a lot of tiff images there now
00:53:21 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, it means I'm completely unable to do manual retouching in gimp until the final downsampled to 8 bits stage
00:53:33 <AnMaster> which support this soft of image format
00:54:57 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, becuase this will be a glorious HDR xmas tree when it is done!
00:55:43 <ehirdiphone> That is an answer to "Why are you doing this?", not "Why are you telling me this?",
00:56:41 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, no it isn't to either: "why a HDR xmas tree"
00:57:14 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, as for why I told you: I'm bored watching the slow output
00:57:25 <AnMaster> this takes minutes even on a fast system
00:57:28 <ehirdiphone> Anyone have an opinion on notebook vs desktop?
00:57:39 <AnMaster> so I spent some time talking to you meanwhile
00:58:30 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, actually gimp is still useful. To preview intermediate steps.
00:59:14 <ehirdiphone> I guess nobody has an opinion, then. Toodles for a few minutes.
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00:59:36 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Anyone have an opinion on notebook vs desktop? <-- well
00:59:50 <AnMaster> smaller laptop monitors are irritating for photographic works?
01:35:44 <immibis> i just got this email from a friend: "What would you do for RSA encryption?" That's all there is. What does anyone think I should reply with?
01:40:19 <AnMaster> immibis, is the user computer literate
01:40:56 <pikhq> I'd inform them that I'd implement it in C.
01:40:58 <AnMaster> if windows it could be malware
01:41:35 <AnMaster> weird spam to everyone in address book?
01:41:50 <AnMaster> immibis, "I would kill for RSA, but not for DSA"
01:42:34 <immibis> i think i'll ask them "What would you do for TCP/IP?"
01:42:34 <AnMaster> immibis, actually for RSA I would use some existing library, rather than try to implement it myself
01:42:46 <AnMaster> consider all timing attacks and so on that exists
01:43:36 <SimonRC> amature implementation of cryptography is asking for trouble
01:43:50 <SimonRC> Use a library. Read the docs carefully
01:44:29 <immibis> SimonRC, I don't think motors are involved.
01:44:53 <immibis> He also sent me a pile (not literally) of code and the message "What is wrong with this?"
01:45:01 <immibis> SimonRC: "amature" is closer to "armature" than "amateur"
01:45:44 <AnMaster> armature? Isn't that a light fixture
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01:45:56 <AnMaster> as in, the thing holding the bulb
01:45:57 <immibis> "In electrical engineering, an armature generally refers to one of the two principal electrical components of an electromechanical machine– a motor or generator"
01:46:21 <AnMaster> immibis, the word in Swedish generally refers to the the bit that holds the bulb
01:46:42 <ehirdiphone> http://mrgan.tumblr.com/post/266988205/pandy Sleek. Who needs OpenGL? Someone tell fizzie to see if this works on the N900.
01:46:51 <pikhq> SimonRC: Unless, of course, aforementioned cryptography is intended to keep things secret from centuries-old Eves.
01:48:15 * uorygl notes that he can't have his first name as a nick.
01:49:19 <uorygl> I mean, I can if I get rid of the guy who's using it right now.
01:49:31 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, forgot / or messed up typo correction?
01:50:00 <pikhq> SimonRC: Eve, the eavesdropper.
01:50:11 <ehirdiphone> uorygl: For you, I can only assume that means proving using Bayesian reasoning that they don't exist.
01:50:22 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Nickserv "Ivan" Hope
01:50:51 <uorygl> ehirdiphone: I wonder why you would say that.
01:50:55 <uorygl> Or why I would do that.
01:51:16 <ehirdiphone> uorygl used to identify as ihope, which he backronymmed to Ivan Hope.
01:51:53 <ehirdiphone> uorygl: Because you're too warm and fuzzy to kill.
01:52:23 * uorygl curls up into a warm and fuzzy... roundish thing.
01:54:12 <ehirdiphone> It seems like iPhone's WebKit is good enough to use for really native-feeling apps, thus subverting the app store and getting cool things like automatic updates.
01:55:40 <ehirdiphone> It'd be pong, except flipped so that the sides are top and bottom; played horizontally on an iPhone. Tilting left and right slides the bat.
01:56:24 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, wow that sound cool
01:56:26 <immibis> the sides are the outside and the center, your bat is always wherever down is
01:56:30 <ehirdiphone> The bat is stationary on the screen; tilting moves everything else, thus moving the bat.
01:56:40 <immibis> the ai's bat is smaller of course
01:56:53 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, the combination mostly
01:57:26 <ehirdiphone> Yeah. It'd work best if the iphone was square, though.
01:57:46 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, you could extend it to 3D with... sphere-pong!
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01:58:32 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I said hypersphere above too
01:58:39 <ehirdiphone> "—And He Built a Crooked Pong Playing Field—"
01:59:24 <ehirdiphone> But seriously, I might do circular tilt pong.
01:59:34 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, you could convert it to circular tiling breakout
02:00:06 <uorygl> I'm still working on my killer app.
02:00:11 <uorygl> I'm sure it'll start killing any month now.
02:00:28 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, good, killing iphone. Android will rule
02:00:44 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, the bricks are in the center
02:01:02 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, your paddle moves around the sphere based on tilting
02:01:09 <AnMaster> you need the bounce the ball all the way around
02:01:21 <ehirdiphone> (android market is open, third party apps easy)
02:01:36 <AnMaster> just to the paddle and the bricks
02:01:54 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, uh. limiting area :P
02:02:01 <Gregor> So, iPhone plus no Apple douchebaggery.
02:02:14 <ehirdiphone> Anyway, that would be insanely difficult to play, AnMaster.
02:02:15 <Gregor> But Apple doesn't know how to do anything without a heavy dose of douchebaggery.
02:02:27 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, would work better in 2D I bet
02:02:47 <Gregor> I didn't say they used the same douchebaggery in every market.
02:03:01 <ehirdiphone> They just fucked this one up. It's gradually showing signs of slowly improving.
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02:03:37 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I agree with Gregor
02:04:04 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, they don't stop at that
02:04:14 * Gregor huggles sidux on his MacBook.
02:04:16 <AnMaster> they do weird fetishism to the puppies too
02:04:22 <Gregor> Now if I could just get rid of this "MacBook" part.
02:04:42 <Gregor> AnMaster: sidux is a semi-distro of fixes to Debian sid.
02:04:46 <ehirdiphone> Gregor: Here's a dollar, kid; go buy a worse computer.
02:05:08 <Gregor> AnMaster: Basically, it makes sid JUST stable enough to actually use, while still giving it the delicious flavor of Debian.
02:05:11 <ehirdiphone> Just sell the MacBook and buy five laptops with the profit.
02:05:19 <Gregor> ehirdiphone: 'snot mine.
02:05:38 <Gregor> ehirdiphone: The resell value does not make it any more mine :P
02:06:02 <ehirdiphone> iPhone typing is, surprisingly, not instantaneous.
02:06:24 <Gregor> That's because the iPhone's crappy onscreen keyboard is just that :P
02:07:11 <ehirdiphone> It beats the hell out of the incredibly tiny keys that are hard to press and have almost no tactility or error correction.
02:07:48 <ehirdiphone> And I think I am demonstrating rather acceptable speed with it.
02:08:20 <Gregor> I guess I should probably pack sometime.
02:08:24 <Gregor> What with my plane tomorrow.
02:09:12 <pikhq> PACKING IS EDUCATED STUPID!
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02:17:24 <uorygl> The iPhone's keyboard is better than other phones' keyboards? Gee, I didn't know that.
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07:40:23 <oerjan> some kind of readme for the bitchx client, i guess
07:42:04 <augur> so im guessing what this means is that soupdragon is on a nix machine and by default, the bitchx client has that as the quit message
07:42:16 <augur> and somewhere in the readme, probably the end, it says this
07:43:01 <augur> infact, it says this nowhere, it merely lists it
07:43:11 * Sgeo bitches at everyone for no reason other than the mention of bitch in a certain IRC client's name
07:43:24 <Sgeo> Good night all
07:44:22 <Sgeo> I will kill anyone who says any of: pack, struct, structure, cast, garbage
07:44:35 <lament> is the BitchX manual actually a Microsoft Word document?
07:44:58 <Sgeo> Anything beginning with c_
07:45:12 <Sgeo> field and fields
07:50:03 <Sgeo> Good night all
07:50:13 <immibis> remember to declare your struct with __attribute__((packed)), and use the appropriate fields, don't cast them stupidly or you might get garbage in a field
07:50:39 <immibis> oh and don't touch c_unused or your computer will explode
07:50:51 * Sgeo kills immibis then asks if __attribute__ is actually supposed to mean anything
07:51:41 <oerjan> sheesh, Sgeo don't you know you should ask first and kill afterwards?
07:51:46 * immibis (who is barely alive) mumbles with his dying breath "......g...c.........c..............."
07:52:55 <Sgeo> Good night all
07:53:16 * immibis is reanimated by the power of oegs
07:53:40 <Sgeo> How'd you get 4/5ths of my AIM screenname?
07:55:25 <Sgeo> Technically, I typed this in forwards.
07:55:42 <Sgeo> And it might appear forwards to some people.
07:56:06 * oerjan assumes that's a unicode right-to-left mark thing
07:56:43 <Sgeo> It's somewhat unstable when selected
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08:52:25 <MizardX> Hmm... mIRC doesn't do RTL. "left-to-right/right-to-left/left-to-right" displays as "left-to-right/right-to-left/left-to-right", when it should be displayed as "left-to-right/tfel-ot-thgir/left-to-right".
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10:52:25 <AnMaster> <uorygl> The iPhone's keyboard is better than other phones' keyboards? Gee, I didn't know that. <-- what about those phones that you can open in a way similar to a laptop?
10:52:45 <AnMaster> those having a screen and a tiny qwerty keyboard inside
10:52:53 <AnMaster> was years since I last saw one of them
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15:17:29 <Gregor> <AnMaster> was years since I last saw one of them
15:17:38 <Gregor> They're all slide-out now, but it's fundamentally the same.
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17:18:59 <oerjan> D&D cuts a little close today
17:19:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, you said we jumped the shark. Agreed. I think we should stop the contest
17:19:45 <AnMaster> however I do have to say it was so long ago I read them I forgot them
17:19:53 -!- olsner has joined.
17:20:33 <oerjan> james stud flushes down the drain...
17:21:58 <oerjan> i thought that was obvious...
17:22:16 <oerjan> anyway, guillotine blades
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18:10:18 <alegend> By the way, yes I'm the guy who wrote Minimal-2D.
18:10:48 <oerjan> soupdragon: you probably should change your irc quit message ;)
18:10:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
18:11:32 <oerjan> it's a message that gets sent to the channels you're on whenever you quit
18:13:06 * oerjan will shut up now. if he understood that correctly.
18:14:32 * alegend is going to the computer. Which he already was at.
18:24:14 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later").
18:28:19 <alegend> Well, it IS easy to make an infinite loop.
18:33:06 <soupdragon> I hope oerjan didn't take me as rude :(
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18:47:47 <alegend> Ya know, I wonder if somebody could do modulo in Minimal-2D.
18:52:14 <alegend> If you do integer division, the remainder is what you get from the modulo operation.
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20:06:26 <pikhq> Why, that's not lambda!
20:07:17 <soupdragon> HaskellLove what other nick dids did you use?
20:08:05 <soupdragon> it's interesting how I keep seeing you
20:11:13 <pikhq> There's a #haskell-dude channel?
20:12:07 <osaunders> HaskellLove: I know a guy who's trying to design a better general purpose language and he's never been to university.
20:12:47 <osaunders> The other general purpose languages
20:12:56 <soupdragon> so like the next ruby or python or ...?
20:12:57 <HaskellLove> osaunders yeah usualy good stuff comes from guys like that because when you are in college you have no time for else but college
20:13:46 <HaskellLove> can you give me contact i might ask him for cooperation if he finds me useful which i think he will
20:13:55 <osaunders> The next object-oriented general purpose language. There are a lot of quite original ideas but it borrows from J, Forth and SmallTalk.
20:14:33 <HaskellLove> osaunders I will study lot of languages in 2010 so... i can help him he can help me...
20:14:59 <osaunders> HaskellLove: You can consider me a contact to him because once he open-sources the language I'll very likely be a contributor. I worked with him on the design of a previous implementation of his language.
20:15:19 <osaunders> He hasn't open-sourced yet because he's using it in a startup.
20:15:40 <HaskellLove> I see... well I will hang on #haskell if anything comes up let me know ok?
20:16:06 <soupdragon> HaskellLove where are you going in programming languages?
20:16:17 <osaunders> Yeah. I'm olliesaunders on twitter if we lose touch.
20:16:20 <HaskellLove> although i dont see why he would open source it, if he has that original ideas... or the open source thing will be limited? so that people cant touch the core?
20:17:10 <osaunders> HaskellLove: I think people accept that for a language to be successful it might be free and open-source.
20:17:14 <HaskellLove> osaunders well i am same name on #haskell so :)
20:18:02 <soupdragon> I try not to let the language barrier lead me to think foreign people like HaskellLove are stupid, but I keep getting data which tells me otherwise
20:18:16 <HaskellLove> osaunders man who da fuck are you why do you bother me
20:19:31 <HaskellLove> osaunders does not he worry of big companies stealing? or other language freaks like me ? :) if i let it open source i would not let them touch the core
20:20:17 -!- adam_d has joined.
20:20:28 <osaunders> Right now you only have my word that this is actually a language worthy of anyone's attention.
20:20:51 <HaskellLove> ok i will get back to work you have anything let me know... take care
20:21:32 -!- HaskellLove has left (?).
20:24:40 <osaunders> Is there a channel dedicated to programming language design?
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20:25:46 <osaunders> I thought it might just been for discussing existing esoteric languages. But I suppose esoteric languages are all about programming language design anyway.
20:27:18 <soupdragon> right now not much in this area but I am learning some basics toward quantum computation
20:29:56 <soupdragon> yeah I gather that people have built some small prototypes
20:30:09 <soupdragon> but on the otherhand, lots of stuff is a quantum computer
20:30:19 <AnMaster> <osaunders> I thought it might just been for discussing existing esoteric languages. But I suppose esoteric languages are all about programming language design anyway. <-- well yes esolangs
20:30:25 <soupdragon> it just seems to be the way the world works
20:30:32 <AnMaster> doesn't prevent lots of off topic stuff
20:31:25 <osaunders> Imagine a world where I could use some of my own poo to compute something.
20:36:01 <osaunders> Yeah. I like to "go there" sometimes.
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20:41:41 <Sgeo> I tried it once
20:41:50 <Sgeo> I remember little
20:42:08 <soupdragon> it's so cool, I like watching documentaries about APL too
20:43:56 <osaunders> I haven't looked at those two. I'm interested in how they compare to J.
20:45:31 <osaunders> J is the successor to APL so I always figured J > APL.
20:46:02 <osaunders> Given they are designed by the same person.
20:59:31 <uorygl> As far as I know, there are no quantum computers in the universe using more than, oh, a dozen qubits.
21:01:02 <uorygl> One qubit = infinitely many states, actually.
21:01:26 <soupdragon> dozen qubits = infinitely^12 different states
21:01:57 <uorygl> But I'm quite sure there's a theorem stating that you can't store more than n bits using n qubits, so it doesn't really matter how many states there are.
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21:22:44 <Sgeo> <r******> Sgeo: what is with the esolang logo?
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21:39:06 * pikhq attempts to build an SVN snapshot of GCC
22:24:59 -!- madbrain has joined.
22:26:27 <madbrain> You get 400 memory accesses per scanline (8 bit). Design a computer system.
22:32:15 <madbrain> You can do better than that ;;
22:33:06 <madbrain> Like, it can't even play music or show bitmaps
22:33:25 <pikhq> Yes it can. Just not very well.
22:34:12 <pikhq> You have the ability to use arbitrary sprites, and can change those sprites.
22:34:16 <pikhq> Thus, you can display bitmaps.
22:34:22 <pikhq> Just... Painfully.
22:38:42 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
22:39:23 <ehirdiphone> the block with HaskellDude in http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.12.20 is the longest epidemic of empty stupidity this channel has seen in a while.
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22:41:30 <ehirdiphone> Anyone involved in something with influences from Smalltalk and J is cool in my book.
22:45:09 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info").
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23:01:11 <oerjan> <soupdragon> I hope oerjan didn't take me as rude :(
23:01:19 <oerjan> no no, just evil, despicable...
23:01:27 <oerjan> or something like that
23:01:53 <AnMaster> way to go with vendor lock in: provide standard DC connector
23:02:01 <AnMaster> but don't specify what voltage or anything
23:07:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you have vlc installed?
23:07:53 <AnMaster> this happens on my desktop and my laptop
23:09:18 * oerjan has this strange feeling of being used as an ehird/ais523 surrogate, here. that is _not_ going to work, btw.
23:10:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, and fizzie is gone too
23:10:34 <AnMaster> in fact: where the heck is everyone
23:10:37 <oerjan> except possibly for the tomteluva part. at least i understand what it means. but i'm not sure if it has a name in english. (santa cap/hat?)
23:11:11 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
23:11:30 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Vlc changes icon for Xmas I believe
23:11:44 <ehirdiphone> oerjan: AnMaster just needs someone to love!
23:12:36 <ehirdiphone> You still attach yourself to those you hate upon occasion.
23:12:53 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, depends. I don't hate you. I just dislike you
23:13:45 <ehirdiphone> Yet, you expect me to engage in friendly, or at least neutral, banter with you on whatever random topic you choose, often.
23:15:09 <ehirdiphone> I use this channel as a bit of a mass broadcast mechanism often.
23:16:10 -!- soupdragon has joined.
23:18:10 <oerjan> it's a dragon for making soup of, obviously. but he should be safe until we find a recipe.
23:18:16 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: I contend you are neither soup nor a dragon.
23:18:59 <ehirdiphone> I am ehird but not an iPhone; I am therefore infinity% more honest than you.
23:20:50 <oerjan> he's a soupdragon, that's just the fax
23:22:59 * oerjan gives Rembane some oats
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23:24:30 * oerjan learns about "snel hest"
23:24:42 <oerjan> so is this essentially swedish lolhorse?
23:24:55 -!- immibis has joined.
23:24:56 <uorygl> I can't tell how honest my nick is.
23:25:15 <oerjan> uorygl: well i have my doubts you're actually an australian animal
23:25:16 <uorygl> Wait, it's a respelling of "warrigal". So it's... totally 100% honest.
23:25:42 <soupdragon> This message has been removed by the author.
23:27:24 <oerjan> <osaunders> Is there a channel dedicated to programming language design?
23:27:40 <oerjan> i vaguely recall hearing about one. or maybe that was oses
23:29:51 <oerjan> of course it's been done here, even non-esoteric ones (Gregor's plof comes to mind)
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23:31:48 <osaunders> This seems like a cool place I'm going to hang out here for a while.
23:33:36 <Rembane> I've heard some language design discussions on #haskell, but they tend to be quite haskellspecific
23:33:58 <osaunders> I'm learning Haskell because I want to write a language.
23:34:21 <osaunders> Also I don't feel qualified to implement a language without a reasonable grasp of the FP paradigm.
23:36:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
23:37:12 <soupdragon> fungot, put the blue pyramid ontop of the green cylinder
23:37:13 <fungot> soupdragon: i admit my ideas might not interest most people use the term " closure"
23:38:03 <oerjan> fungot, feed the bleen sphere to the grue
23:38:03 <fungot> oerjan: it seems like a big dumbass untill something suddenly clicks, and then adds 1 in front.
23:38:40 <oerjan> fungot: and then it looks like a big dumbass with 1 in front
23:38:41 <fungot> oerjan: you said the t word!) the template takes care of individual instructions into multi-character code will function how you expect it to
23:38:59 <oerjan> fungot: then then then then
23:39:00 <fungot> oerjan: ( the acknowledgements, not as a statement on the implementation you're using. you'd have one configuration file, and
23:40:41 <fungot> Rembane: wait a moment, the only difference is that! people don't even consider its technical merit when they see list.length ( because they know anything about fnord windows at all can be useful for
23:40:59 <Rembane> fungot: I quite agree with that. But what about Eliza?
23:41:00 <fungot> Rembane: and i just like for things to happen.'
23:41:24 <Rembane> fungot: I think you're quite right when it comes to Eliza.
23:41:25 <fungot> Rembane: sexps are enough to make it much easier
23:41:31 <oerjan> fungot used to be with Eliza but they had a nasty breakup
23:41:32 <fungot> oerjan: does that interpreter extend to the language
23:41:50 <fungot> Rembane: even if our brain works slower, but still
23:41:59 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
23:42:04 <Rembane> fungot: Not enough muscles eh?
23:42:04 <fungot> Rembane: gimp is a bitch to read
23:42:25 <pikhq> osaunders: I'd like to note that Haskell is probably the nicest language to implement a language in.
23:42:36 <immibis> fungot: what is the nicest language to implement a language in?
23:42:37 <fungot> immibis: no special commands?)
23:42:49 <immibis> fungot, it shouldn't have special commands?
23:42:50 <fungot> immibis: but that's not godwin is it? :) ( i'm attracted to these types of problems)
23:42:54 <osaunders> pikhq: Oh yes, people on #haskell like to make that known.
23:42:56 <oerjan> pikhq: lightyears ahead of the competition
23:43:15 <Rembane> An IRC bot built in Brainfuck?!
23:43:16 <pikhq> Parsec *alone* makes it much nicer.
23:43:24 <pikhq> Rembane: No, built in Befunge.
23:43:26 <immibis> funogot seems more comprehensible than last time i tried talking to it
23:43:47 <Rembane> oerjan, pikhq: Oh. Thanks.
23:44:05 <Rembane> What about Parrot and building languages?
23:45:04 <pikhq> Parrot is just something for your compiler to target.
23:45:22 <pikhq> Can be used with any language, really.
23:45:23 <pikhq> (some more easily than others, mind)
23:45:39 * oerjan wonders if pikhq noticed the pun
23:47:56 <soupdragon> oerjan I thought it was the official slogan
23:51:51 <oerjan> soupdragon: it is? well it could be
23:52:44 <oerjan> google shows up some hits
23:54:06 <oerjan> hey, not just haskell either: http://www.theparsecgroup.com/ (warning: hype)
23:54:43 <oerjan> osaunders: funge98 may very well be the most useful esoteric language, with all its extensions
23:55:35 <oerjan> it just looks like one :D
23:56:33 <osaunders> Who writes these esolangs? Students?
23:58:47 <oerjan> actually it doesn't look like it is the official slogan for the parsec library. but it's been thought of.
23:59:27 <osaunders> Has anyone written anything in Funge98 here?
23:59:49 <oerjan> fizzie wrote fungot but he's not here at the moment
23:59:50 <fungot> oerjan: transactions are publications that stand in their own module
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00:03:03 <snakbar> i have just written a bainfuck interpreter, but i'm not sure for it's complete working
00:03:18 <snakbar> could you give me some BF sources to test it?
00:04:07 <soupdragon> that should print lots of different letters
00:04:51 <snakbar> i found that one on internet
00:04:52 <snakbar> [+++++[>++++++++<-]>.<++++++[>--------<-]+<<<]>.>>[
00:04:52 <snakbar> [-]<[>+<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
00:04:52 <snakbar> [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<<<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>
00:05:01 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck#Examples has a couple
00:05:04 <snakbar> it is supposed to show the fibonacci numbers
00:05:19 <snakbar> not working with my interpreter
00:06:00 <soupdragon> how can you possibly debug something like this?
00:06:12 <soupdragon> there must be another way to tackle it
00:06:45 <snakbar> if you test it, i'll know if it's the code or my program the problem
00:06:45 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
00:06:55 <oerjan> snakbar: does that work?
00:07:41 <soupdragon> then why don't you paste it to a website
00:07:45 <oerjan> snakbar: what if you insert some whitespace?
00:08:00 <snakbar> okay, w8 a minute i'll do it all ^^
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00:09:07 <oerjan> ^bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
00:09:15 <oerjan> snakbar: and that one?
00:09:59 <snakbar> my only problem was with the code i gave you
00:10:08 <oerjan> hm think we need to test something with nested loops...
00:10:13 <snakbar> i don't know if it's supposed to work
00:10:32 <snakbar> can you give me a paste website, i can't find one right now
00:11:31 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
00:11:38 <oerjan> soupdragon: that's not brainfuck, do you mean ^ul ?
00:12:40 <oerjan> ^bf >++++++++++>+>+[[+++++[>++++++++<-]>.<++++++[>--------<-]+<<<]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<<<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<<<]
00:12:41 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
00:12:53 <oerjan> soupdragon: works in fungot
00:12:53 <fungot> oerjan: but its a small city :) i like the lawyer stuff
00:13:20 <soupdragon> I didn't realize it printed in decimal
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00:16:05 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>-.
00:16:30 <snakbar> do you want me to post it entirely compilable, or just the main functions ?
00:16:47 <oerjan> snakbar: does ++++[++++>+<]>. work for you? otherwise it could be a wrapping issue
00:17:09 <snakbar> it has some diferent files ^^
00:17:19 <snakbar> i put it on diferent pastes ?
00:17:46 <snakbar> oerjan > your code gives me one '?'
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00:19:20 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->++++++++<][>.<+]>.
00:19:25 <snakbar> here is a first post, there are not ALL the files but every BF functions
00:19:26 <snakbar> http://pastebin.ca/1721881
00:19:33 <oerjan> snakbar: what does that give you?
00:19:40 <snakbar> it's written mostly in french sorry ^ ^
00:20:21 <snakbar> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
00:20:21 <snakbar> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
00:20:21 <snakbar> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
00:20:24 <oerjan> snakbar: ah there we are. you are not skipping loops that start with 0
00:20:59 <snakbar> when i enter a loop, if i'm 0 i should skip hmmmm
00:23:21 <oerjan> i wonder if there's a test suite for brainfuck like there's mycology for befunge...
00:23:54 <lament> implementations tend to be upfront about cell size and memory limits
00:24:15 <oerjan> well but for the basics
00:26:22 <snakbar> soupdragon: what do you think about my code?
00:26:40 <soupdragon> it's easy to fix because it's well written
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00:31:42 <snakbar> i'm trying to fix it right now
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01:36:35 <snakbar> here is my function now for the '[' sign in BF
01:36:36 <snakbar> http://pastebin.ca/1721941
01:36:58 <snakbar> the interpreter gets to crash
01:37:37 <immibis> why not just use an integer? start with 1, increment for [, decrement for ], stop when it gets to 0
01:37:45 <snakbar> some code work, other don't
01:40:45 <soupdragon> maybe one would do a processing step when reading in the brainfuck program at first
01:41:02 <soupdragon> turning every [ into a label that says where the corresponding ] is
01:44:47 <snakbar> i think there's a simpler way
01:45:28 <snakbar> the counter like immibis said looks simpler to me
01:46:26 <snakbar> but the counter is the same method i used, a little diferent. so i think my method should work, must be an error somewhere
01:46:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://nrkbeta.no/2009/12/18/bergensbanen-eng/ <-- wow
01:47:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh, not even any part?
01:48:55 <oerjan> hey i'm norwegian, we're spoiled with scenery already >:)
01:49:29 <AnMaster> soupdragon, what would have been 3D graphics?
01:49:46 <oerjan> also i don't watch tv, this is the first i hear about it becoming an internet phenomenon...
01:49:48 <soupdragon> the picture on that page looked like 3D graphics
01:49:49 <AnMaster> "The original file was 165 GB, too much for most people to download. We coded a 720 50P, 1280×720 version, resulting in a 22 GB file."
01:50:09 <AnMaster> heck 22 GB is too much for me to download
01:50:28 <AnMaster> soupdragon, 3.2 or so iirc? For single layer single sided
01:50:39 <AnMaster> and burning dual layer just doesn't seem to work well in practise
01:51:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, what? internet phenomenon‽‽
01:51:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: well it said so on the page, more or less..
01:51:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah I got the link from an american
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02:06:41 <ehirdiphone> http://notalwaysright.com/when-open-source-meets-closed-minds/3305
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04:45:29 <ehirdiphone> "you seem to think i’m random, but i’m only psuedorandom. you would be exactly this way, were you seeded at the very same time and place." —why the lucky stiff
04:46:45 <oerjan> hm wasn't that the guy who disappeared
04:47:16 <ehirdiphone> He deleted himself from the Internet completely.
04:47:40 <ehirdiphone> Specifically, the host human of _why killed _why.
04:48:22 <ehirdiphone> That personality, those works, that *person*, is dead. And nobody knows why but him.
04:50:00 <oerjan> at least no one who is telling
04:50:17 <ehirdiphone> It's sad, but what can you do. Most courts only accept the murder of someone with a physical body.
04:51:02 <ehirdiphone> (note: yes, these are my real opinions on identity—although I don't think it should count as murder :P)
04:52:57 <ehirdiphone> I wonder what the smallest extension to the pi calculus is that makes it TC.
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04:53:25 * oerjan didn't know the pi calculus wasn't TC
04:53:52 <oerjan> i thought it had an embedding of lambda calculus into it
04:54:54 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_calculus#Turing_completeness
04:56:25 <ehirdiphone> I wonder if you can implement a typed pi calculus in Haskell.
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05:21:04 <uorygl> O omniscient fungot, what is the best question I could ask you right now?
05:21:05 <fungot> uorygl: if i knew of sisc? is there anything wrong with it? :)
05:21:33 <uorygl> O omniscient fungot, if i knew of sisc? is there anything wrong with it?
05:21:34 <fungot> uorygl: but i don't think it's worth putting effort into optimizing keyword calls. every lambda's body is a shell, i think....
05:22:34 <uorygl> Note to self: learn of sisc; don't try to optimize keyword calls; every lambda's body is a shell.
05:23:27 <uorygl> It would be neat if some future dude looked at these logs and figured that fung*t is actually omniscient and powerful.
05:23:43 <uorygl> As I'm sure has been said before.
05:29:16 <pikhq> fungot: Has it been said before?
05:29:17 <fungot> pikhq: lua's popular because it's cheaper to buy a new house, and heal my computer with full u+ support" then :)
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06:00:44 <immibis> fungot: are you omniscient and powerful?
06:00:45 <fungot> immibis: ssh, don't tell me that i forgot to apply sunscreen on my ears, la la la i can't hear a fig?
06:00:59 <immibis> fungot: you forgot to apply sunscreen on my ears
06:01:00 <fungot> immibis: maybe i'll combine them fnord by keeping expressions and statements different things. fnord foo 1/ n fnord bar 1/ n fnord bar 1/!
06:01:13 * immibis wonders where the line before the previous one came form
06:01:21 <fungot> immibis: an exception can be raised to the fnord
06:01:27 <fungot> immibis: hehe. btw, it's ruby code but it's chaotic neutral, in d&d terms. bear with me) up-from to in-sequence suggests the use of improper lists in this manner
06:01:52 <immibis> fungot: please don't talk nonsense
06:03:31 <immibis> anyone have a win32 binary rcfunge?
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13:08:23 <osaunders> Is there a POSIX funge98 compiler/interpreter?
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14:06:16 <Deewiant> CCBI may be another, depending on what you mean by something being POSIX
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19:44:19 <ehirdiphone> I guess I should send Mike Riley an email, instead of putting it off.
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19:58:07 <ehirdiphone> Sent and forwarded to AnMaster, in case he cares.
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20:07:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Did you reply to Mike yourself?
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20:08:01 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, that computer is running memtest
20:08:34 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, btw I'm probably planning to switch from gentoo on my current desktop. Or upgrade it's components
20:08:43 <AnMaster> it is getting too slow nowdays
20:08:55 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
20:08:58 <AnMaster> can't keep up with the higher demands of new software
20:09:04 <AnMaster> wow did that scare him that much?
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20:09:08 <ehirdiphone> Deewiant: Do you want me to forward my email to you too?
20:09:39 <Deewiant> ehirdiphone: Might as well, I suppose
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20:11:46 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, not sure, probably arch for desktop
20:11:51 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, and it won't happen soon
20:11:56 <AnMaster> becuase I have no time to do it
20:12:08 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, but since I'm planning to get a new harddrive anyway for it. probably then
20:12:43 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, too expensive. Not enough space. Plus it would probably be faster than the system bus ;P
20:12:59 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, 500 GB SATA harddrive is what I will go for
20:13:30 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I can't live with 80 GB
20:14:21 <AnMaster> on the other hand, arch has fewer packages than gentoo
20:14:40 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, yeah I guess we have to move with the time
20:14:43 <ehirdiphone> Something like $30 more for twice the space.
20:14:49 <AnMaster> *remembers ibook with 3.2 GB harddrive*
20:14:51 <Deewiant> ehirdiphone: $400 for a drive is too expensive
20:15:39 <ehirdiphone> Deewiant: It's not a drive, it's a box that magically speeds up your computer more than most CPU upgrades.
20:16:24 <Deewiant> To me, it's mostly a drive. :-P
20:16:32 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, it doesn't because you still need the hard-drive for data
20:17:01 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, yes that it makes your computer quieter
20:17:30 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, but: since now it is ssd + harddrive instead of harddrive
20:17:39 <AnMaster> you have the same noise + no noise
20:17:59 <Deewiant> A generation 2 Intel X25-M would be 205 € here
20:18:03 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, but most accesses are from my data disk
20:18:27 <Deewiant> Well, it's not far from your $250
20:18:42 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well, I just based it on stats from my own system
20:19:02 <Deewiant> ehirdiphone: OSs put shit in RAM after the first access
20:19:05 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: If all you do is manipulate ridiculously big RAW files, maybe.
20:19:21 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, no, you mean 16-bit per channel tiff!
20:19:30 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, and HDR floating point encoded tiff
20:19:45 <ehirdiphone> Deewiant: Also, the stats are that SSDs speed up common tasks by quite a lot.
20:20:00 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, such as compiling?
20:20:16 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I think what I buy should be based on my own usage stats :)
20:20:38 <Deewiant> Anandtech or something tested it and they saw something like a 1% speedup with SSDs
20:20:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, unless it is g++ in which case it is also "more ram than you have"-bound
20:20:56 <Deewiant> Or maybe Firefox or something.
20:21:08 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: The majority of desktop tasks you perform are highly different in workings to common ones?
20:21:23 <AnMaster> dm-2 0.14 1.06 1.01 379858 361568 # this is /home
20:21:34 <Deewiant> http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3631&p=25
20:21:35 <AnMaster> dm-3 0.17 0.73 0.01 260700 2308 # This is /usr
20:21:44 <AnMaster> Device: tps Blk_read/s Blk_wrtn/s Blk_read Blk_wrtn
20:21:55 <Deewiant> And yeah, the difference was essentially zero for HDD vs SSD
20:22:02 <ehirdiphone> Pidgin uses monotone as their VCS. No joke.
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20:22:52 <AnMaster> /boot just has 5 read and 1 write
20:23:30 <AnMaster> (estimated, since it is based on taking all the dm-* on sda and the values for sda and checking difference)
20:23:34 <Deewiant> http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3631&p=20 reminds me why I don't care about SSDs enough at their current price range
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20:24:10 <Deewiant> He starts three resource-intensive programs after boot and sees an improvement of 24 seconds
20:25:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that is great. My boot time is around 35 seconds on my desktop
20:25:11 <Deewiant> 1) I don't do that 2) Even if I would, I don't care if it takes two minutes. I can busy myself in the already-instantly-enough-starting firefox/thunderbird for much longer than that.
20:25:15 <AnMaster> so it would make it almost instant
20:25:26 <AnMaster> and on my laptop it would BOOT BEFORE I PRESSED THE BUTTON
20:25:58 <AnMaster> a computer being able to predict when I will turn it on
20:26:02 <Deewiant> That wasn't about boot time, it was about program startup time.
20:26:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, don't ruin a good joke
20:26:21 <Sgeo> Since when does Firefox start anywhere near instantly?
20:26:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also firefox is slow to start
20:26:51 <Deewiant> On my Linux machine it's instantaneous enough for me.
20:27:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, arch? hm not readahead then by default
20:33:31 <Deewiant> Booted into Linux; Thunderbird takes about 5 seconds to start, Firefox about 10. When typing the commands for the four or so programs I typically start right away, that's too fast - it interrupts my typing.
20:34:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, make a script to do it
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20:34:42 <Deewiant> No. I don't always start up the same things.
20:35:01 <AnMaster> for first configuration and so on
20:35:14 <AnMaster> otherwise use base64 encoding of the number
20:35:38 <Deewiant> I'd rather just type the stuff :-P
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20:38:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could want to start more instances every time?
20:38:16 <AnMaster> of course that is rather contrived
20:38:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, use the ackermann function to calculate number of instances of <text editor of choice> to start ;P
20:40:13 <Deewiant> One instance is enough, and I already have it bound to a shortcut key so I don't really need any more help there :-P
20:42:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no you can't use that comment here
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20:51:33 <ehirdiphone> Why am I always right about these things >_<
20:51:50 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, alas my mail client is now rebuilding so can't check right atm
20:51:56 <Deewiant> Maybe you just have that effect on people :-P
20:52:07 <AnMaster> (yeah I said I was probably switching to arch, see!)
20:53:28 <AnMaster> (wow, did I just take ehird in defence or something?)
20:54:10 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, so I finally went firefox 3.5
20:54:21 <AnMaster> now I'm pissed off with it for the second time
20:54:32 <ehirdiphone> It sure will be fun for his family and friends going through the shock and grief that will probably never fully go away. Unless he doesn't have any.
20:54:40 <AnMaster> and why the heck is it ignoring my scroll wheel
20:54:51 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, try to contact them
20:55:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually it doesn't react to clicks either
20:55:17 <AnMaster> what is the command to disable all extensions=
20:55:40 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, they can help him get that
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20:56:15 <AnMaster> Firefox is having trouble recovering your windows and tabs. This is usually caused by a recently opened web page.
20:57:32 <ehirdiphone> Suicide is probably among the most selfish things you can do.
20:57:50 <lament> probably. One way to find out for sure
20:58:53 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, sorry but I have to rush, you and Deewiant has to handle this with Mike Riley
21:00:00 <ehirdiphone> I know! Suicide is illegal, let's tell the police! ...not.
21:01:10 <lament> Jesus's death was effectively a suicide
21:01:20 <lament> and it's considered by some to be the most altruistic act ever
21:02:06 <soupdragon> if you have a martyr that can be reshaped into a religion, then Jesus and the God are essentially similar, or "homeomorphic", as topologists say
21:02:07 <Deewiant> Dying for the sins of mankind and dying because you're sad are two different things
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21:02:44 <Deewiant> Although the argument could be made that the world would be a better place had Jesus not killed himself either :-P
21:03:20 <soupdragon> Jesus asked, in essence, whether all sins that are not twisted and have no holes in them are homeomorphic to sodomy
21:03:37 <ehirdiphone> If only the invisible pink unicorn did not have to become invisible so that we would not rape her.
21:03:56 <Deewiant> Poor raped invisible pink unicorn
21:04:32 <ehirdiphone> Mike mentioned going to church once. Isn't suicide a sin?
21:05:13 <Deewiant> Depends on the brand of Christianity, I believe.
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21:05:43 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_suicide
21:06:00 <soupdragon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_homotopy
21:06:14 <Deewiant> soupdragon: Methinks you're on crack.
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21:09:25 * AnMaster is doing a binary search of extensions to find the broken one
21:10:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, clicking anything except scrollbar and menu bar, scrolling with scroll wheel, opening any dialog (including add-ons one)
21:13:42 <AnMaster> what the. binary search gives weird results.
21:13:51 <AnMaster> maybe it is an interaction between two then
21:13:58 <Deewiant> How many extensions do you have?
21:14:20 <Deewiant> You can try all 64 combinations :-P
21:14:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh wait it seems at least two extensions is to blame
21:15:13 <AnMaster> I localised the "can't open dialog" thing to google customize
21:16:00 <Deewiant> You mean http://www.customizegoogle.com/ ? Works for me
21:16:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oops, misremembered: 12
21:17:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also found another issue: pasting with middle mouse button in address box broken
21:17:56 <Deewiant> That works for me fine as well
21:18:25 <Deewiant> I appear to have 26 extensions enabled and 4 disabled
21:18:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it does indeed seem to be an interaction of sorts
21:19:32 <AnMaster> as in, restarting firefox sometimes fixes it
21:19:38 <fizzie> Six, out of which one is disabled. (More data points is always good. What, you weren't compiling extension usage statistics after all?)
21:19:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I didn't count the disabled ones
21:20:39 <AnMaster> scrollbar on wrong side and all the icons at the top replaced with empty white
21:20:55 <Deewiant> fizzie: Now you managed to make me interested in whether such statistics exist
21:21:52 -!- adam_d__ has joined.
21:21:55 <Deewiant> Based on a quick Googling, it appears not.
21:22:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: addons.mozilla.org has their download statistics, but that's not really it.
21:22:26 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:22:56 <Deewiant> Not really. I was thinking more in terms of "mean number of extensions installed" type things.
21:23:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fizzie: either of you use tab mix plus?
21:24:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, adblock plus? noscript?
21:24:33 <fizzie> The former on the N900.
21:25:25 <AnMaster> [NoScript] [Exception... "Component returned failure code: 0x80004005 (NS_ERROR_FAILURE) [nsIPrefBranch2.removeObserver]" nsresult: "0x80004005 (NS_ERROR_FAILURE)" location: "JS frame :: chrome://noscript/content/Main.js :: anonymous :: line 761" data: no] while disposing.
21:25:39 <AnMaster> only hit I can find is one in a russian forum
21:25:45 <fizzie> In the Firebug category, I do have the good old DOM Inspector installed.
21:27:29 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:29:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would it be a good idea to email Mike Riley. I don't know what to sya
21:32:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well customizegoogle alone works
21:32:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm does MKRY live in US?
21:32:39 <AnMaster> if so recommending professional help might be bad
21:33:25 -!- adam_d__ has changed nick to adam_d.
21:41:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm it looks like noscript is bugged
21:42:29 <AnMaster> maybe resetting it's settings would help
21:57:10 <AnMaster> I can't make head or tail out of this
22:00:57 -!- omologos has joined.
22:01:22 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
22:01:43 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: You know, most people in the US have health insurance.
22:02:15 <ehirdiphone> Mike probably quit his job if he's tying up loose ends though
22:03:52 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Most people in the US have health insurance, sure. It doesn't necessarily cover everything, they will feel free to drop you at the slightest chance, and they will still charge you through the nose to use said insurance.
22:05:46 * pikhq then goes and sees context, and is confused.
22:06:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, what are you confused about
22:07:26 <pikhq> Who is this Mike Riley person, anyways?
22:07:42 <AnMaster> Mike Riley is planning suicide. Due to as he says "dealing with severe depression now for the past couple years and at this point I have pretty much given up"
22:08:55 <AnMaster> so all things considered I think this is pretty bad to say the least
22:09:02 -!- ehirdiphone_ has joined.
22:09:22 <ehirdiphone_> The strategy most likely to work is to convince him to hold it off, "just to make sure he really wants to".
22:09:42 <ehirdiphone_> Anything before that is just racing against an unpredictable clock.
22:09:43 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone_, send a mail to him about it. You are better at English than I am.
22:10:03 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone_, also you obviously know this somehow
22:10:21 <ehirdiphone_> Yes. I will. But I'm out of my league, I need to think about it.
22:10:30 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone_, there might not be much time
22:10:47 <ehirdiphone_> AnMaster: Half seeing what other successful preventers do, half logic.
22:10:48 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:10:49 -!- ehirdiphone_ has changed nick to ehirdiphone.
22:11:15 <ehirdiphone> Also, we probably gave at least a day or two. He did say he was tying up loose ends.
22:11:43 <AnMaster> still, you don't have much timne
22:12:37 -!- omologos has left (?).
22:13:12 <ehirdiphone> Probably we need a group of people here to show support at some point.
22:13:35 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I sign up. I guess Deewiant would too.
22:14:16 <ehirdiphone> He thinks he knows that you two hate him. It's a good idea, but it probably won't work without others as well.
22:14:48 <ehirdiphone> If he doesn't want Rc/Funge to die with him maybe we could use that
22:15:13 <ehirdiphone> Maybe ask him to do one final code cleanup ;-)
22:15:40 <lament> where does he write that?
22:16:09 <lament> does he ever come to this channel?
22:16:44 <ehirdiphone> Maybe we could convince him to call the Good Samaritans
22:17:39 <ehirdiphone> The good samaritans are practically in the business of preventing suicide after all
22:18:17 <lament> dunno how good suicide prevention services are
22:18:25 <lament> it's not like they can really do anything
22:18:45 <pikhq> lament: They can talk. That can be helpful.
22:18:50 <ehirdiphone> Most people don't really want to kill themselves
22:18:58 <lament> afaik there's a significant number of people who complain to their doctor about suicidal thoughts
22:19:04 <lament> and then go and kill themselves
22:19:08 <ehirdiphone> Mike wouldn't do it if his depression was cured for instance
22:19:29 <lament> right, the point is, the doctor can't do much
22:19:49 <lament> perhaps some sort of chemical intervention would be appropriate...
22:19:57 <ehirdiphone> Doctors aren't specialists in that area...
22:20:55 <lament> emergency measure, at least
22:20:59 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I talked to my dad about this. He is a professor in psychology.
22:21:24 <AnMaster> his tip: keep a discussion open, ask him about details, try to recommend medicine (unless he already tried it)
22:21:45 <AnMaster> and try to get him to seek pro help
22:21:46 <ehirdiphone> You need a degree to come up with that? :P
22:22:16 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well he said it was hard to know without details, like if it was season-dependant and such
22:22:17 <Pthing> well you can't get any magical positivist solutions either so
22:23:13 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:23:43 <ehirdiphone> Hi zzo38. Not the best time to pop in if you want esolangs talk.
22:24:23 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, also: if he is Christian, try to get him to talk to a priest or such (could be easier in US than pro help)
22:24:57 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Preists are not qualified for anything but bullshitology.
22:25:14 <Pthing> where is positivism getting you
22:25:50 <zzo38> Priests are not qualified for anything but religion and the religious service (unless, of course, they know other things too)
22:26:03 <lament> ehirdiphone: priests perform the same function as psychologists, and they have many more centuries of experience of performing it.
22:26:11 <ehirdiphone> "THINGS FALL DOWN." "God" "Magic" "Well no science bring offered GOD IT IS"
22:26:18 <lament> in addition to other things priests do, of course.
22:26:34 <lament> ehirdiphone: ugh shut up
22:28:17 <ehirdiphone> Anyway, we're having an argument about nothing.
22:28:49 <soupdragon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_%28breakfast_cereal%29
22:29:02 <zzo38> *HOW TO ARGUE ABOUT NOTHING*
22:30:05 <lament> presumably if the guy "dealt with severe depression for the past couple years" he has already looked into medical solutions
22:30:32 <zzo38> Do whatever solution works for you, because some people it is different
22:30:41 <ehirdiphone> Dealt is being used in the sense of "carried on" IMO
22:30:44 <zzo38> That is a good question to ask
22:31:11 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> I doubt it would help. <--- who knows. It might. It might not.
22:31:36 <zzo38> In how many Forth systems are the WHILE and IF command interchangeable? And in which ones are WHILE and IF commands *not* interchangeable?
22:32:39 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, asking if he tried medicine (SRRI ones) might be good
22:32:47 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_inhibitor
22:33:32 <zzo38> The Half Moon Books telephone is still busy
22:35:28 <ehirdiphone> I think we've covered what to do. I'll reply tomorrow, hopefully, as I'm the one he's told.
22:35:44 <lament> if, say, your family dies in a car crash, you girlfriend whom you love leaves you with your best friend, you get fired, and your house gets broken into and all the valuables stolen
22:36:02 <lament> presumably you would be rather upset by all that
22:36:09 <AnMaster> time is probably short. Could be hours in worst case, days in best case
22:36:11 <lament> so can you just take some SSRI and be happy again?
22:36:26 <AnMaster> lament, there is a delay with SSRI on a few weeks.
22:36:48 <lament> suppose you start taking SSRI a few weeks in advance, then :)
22:37:01 <ehirdiphone> He said that he's tying up loose ends. Rcfunge would not be the last item on the todo
22:37:51 <lament> soupdragon: but would you at least not be sad?
22:37:55 <lament> soupdragon: that's a bit frightening honestly
22:38:13 <soupdragon> it just stops you from being able to cry
22:38:33 <ehirdiphone> If SSRI removes such emotions, surely that is what depression is. So it won't.
22:38:38 <soupdragon> drugs don't really make the world go round (not yet anyway)
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22:39:08 <Pthing> ehirdiphone, masterpiece of scientific thinking there
22:39:39 <Pthing> <soupdragon> and fiddles with your sleep
22:39:39 <Pthing> <ehirdiphone> If SSRI removes such emotions, surely that is what depression is. So it won't.
22:40:12 <lament> i suppose clinical depression is different from grief and other related things
22:40:25 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, consider that some people are helped by SSRI, depressions must be truly awful
22:40:44 <ehirdiphone> Depression is usually referred to as lacking "happy" or "sad"
22:40:59 <lament> ehirdiphone: maybe you should look up clinical depression on wikipedia
22:41:25 <ehirdiphone> lament: it was back of the envelope rough approx reasoning
22:41:42 <Pthing> writing "depression = sad" on the back of an envelope
22:41:50 <lament> also, nice, suicidal thoughts are actually one of possible side-effects of SSRI
22:42:58 <AnMaster> lament, as well as being used to prevent it.
22:43:15 <AnMaster> lament, I suspect it is complex
22:43:20 <ehirdiphone> btw using my irc taps on an iPhone against a statement I made about an entire field of "legit" study
22:43:55 <ehirdiphone> The latter should be held to MUCH higher standards
22:43:58 <lament> ehirdiphone: so why are you replying tomorrow and not right now?
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22:44:34 <ehirdiphone> lament: iPhone typing is not so fun. My fingers aren't happy.
22:44:54 <lament> that's... a great justification
22:45:03 <ehirdiphone> P(mike commits suicide before tomorrow) = a very low number
22:45:29 <lament> i guess you'll just have to take that chance
22:45:31 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, you are typing a lot on it now
22:45:49 <zzo38> What are your thoughts about text-adventure games?
22:45:59 <ehirdiphone> I'll also note that what everyone else is doing mostly amounts to sneering on the sidelines
22:46:17 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, no. I have sent him a mail already
22:46:35 <AnMaster> But, you are better at English and such.
22:46:48 <ehirdiphone> I take chances every day. quite a few with a lot higher probability than him offing himself before tomorrow
22:47:37 <ehirdiphone> lament: The iPhones screen isn't big enough to review a long email reasonably anyway
22:47:44 <AnMaster> I do thank you for your concern, it is appreciated. In 39 years of dealing with the underlying problem there has been nobody who has been able to help.
22:47:48 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, just got that reply
22:48:33 <lament> AnMaster: i don't know this riley guy. Do you think it's important that ehirdiphone writes him an email today?
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22:48:45 <AnMaster> lament, well maybe. He is the author of RC/Funge
22:48:59 <AnMaster> (that is for identification of who this is)
22:49:07 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster is estimating the probability of him following through within days as high
22:49:14 <lament> i mean important for sake of the guy, not esolangs...
22:49:32 <AnMaster> lament, well of course. But I don't know.
22:49:39 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
22:49:41 -!- lament has set channel mode: +b *!*=ehirdiph@82.132.139.*.
22:49:45 <lament> it's the least i could do
22:50:11 <lament> ehirdiphone: see, I gave your fingers some relief
22:50:12 <zzo38> Why should you do that
22:53:23 <AnMaster> soupdragon, I'm not sure that is a good idea. This requires well thought out lines.
22:53:36 <AnMaster> I'll leave that to ehirdiphone
22:54:37 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, as for it being irrationally. We just interpreted what tying up loose ends means differently
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22:57:40 <AnMaster> asking for the underlying reason:
22:57:42 <AnMaster> " I would rather not say exactly, other than a very major birth defect. The depression comes and goes, usually gets worse each time."
22:58:09 <lament> AnMaster: have you asked him if he has tried drug treatments?
22:58:43 <AnMaster> lament, I used the word medicine, but yes
22:59:23 <lament> fuck why is ehirdiphone such a horrible little bitch
22:59:38 <soupdragon> lament haha I think it's a great question
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23:06:51 <zzo38> Which IRC server software has,only two features I require, + type channels and channel logging. All of the others have too much features that I don't ever need
23:08:43 <AnMaster> lament, could you please unban him
23:09:20 <AnMaster> zzo38, I don't know of any with + type channels except the one ircnet uses
23:09:26 <AnMaster> I suspect it may be the only one
23:09:47 <lament> AnMaster: he logged out anyway
23:10:09 <AnMaster> also he will be back tomorrow probably
23:10:41 <zzo38> AnMaster: The ircnet one however has a lot of other features too. I am looking for one with only + type and not # or & channels, and many commands not needed such as KICK MODE NS CS WALLOPS etc
23:10:57 <AnMaster> zzo38, afaik no such one exists
23:10:59 <zzo38> And how can I make all channels logging by the server, I can add a new command called LOG command
23:11:26 <AnMaster> zzo38, also without kick and mode it won't follow the RFC that defines the IRC protocol
23:11:30 <zzo38> Do you ever play a text-adventure game?
23:11:39 <zzo38> AnMaster: I know, it will be incomplete
23:12:06 <zzo38> But those commands are not needed in this case
23:12:08 <AnMaster> zzo38, it happened that I played colossal cave
23:12:19 <AnMaster> which iirc is the original one
23:12:47 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes it is original one but also I ask, if any newer ones, or if you ever tried to write one, etc
23:13:48 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
23:14:36 <AnMaster> zzo38, never tried to write one.
23:15:05 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Havr you asked whether he has seeked prof help for the depression not the defect?
23:15:05 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, forwarded last mail from him to you
23:15:37 <AnMaster> it might not have been clear which I meant
23:15:45 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, see forwarded mail
23:15:53 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Client Quit).
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23:17:39 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, Penguinofthegods AT gmail.com?
23:17:47 -!- lament has set channel mode: -b *!*=ehirdiph@82.132.139.*.
23:18:30 <lament> AnMaster: yes but what a little bitch
23:18:56 <AnMaster> lament, I disagree. I this case I have no reason to argue with him
23:21:19 <zzo38> If you don't like their messages, use the SILENCE command to block them
23:21:56 <AnMaster> zzo38, /ignore. iirc freenodes doesn't have server side silence
23:22:17 <zzo38> Some of the freenode servers do have SILENCE command
23:23:08 <zzo38> Send the SILENCE command and then you can see whether or not your server supports it or not.
23:24:56 <zzo38> Yes, only some. I know that sometimes when I connect it is valid command, and sometimes it is invalid. It seems to depend which server
23:25:31 <zzo38> I don't know if it is possible to select which server you want directly, but you can try
23:27:23 <AnMaster> zzo38, well of course it is. just use the host name for the specific one
23:27:28 <AnMaster> see which one you are on in the motd
23:33:31 <zzo38> You don't need to use the MOTD to see which one you are on
23:33:55 <zzo38> Just sending any unknown command or the SILENCE command, or various others, will tell you which server you are on in the sender field of the reply
23:38:09 <AnMaster> zzo38, in a proper irc client you don't see that. It being abstracted away :)
23:38:23 <AnMaster> zzo38, anyway you can use the host name to connect to
23:38:41 <AnMaster> of course a server might be removed or such in the future
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23:40:15 <zzo38> Abstracted away?? What do you mean, of course it should tell you who the sender of the message is
23:40:33 <zzo38> I see it on my computer, at least (in dark cyan)
23:40:57 <AnMaster> zzo38, yes it tells me it is the server
23:41:05 <AnMaster> I don't usually need to worry what server
23:41:40 <AnMaster> it tells me it is the server by using a grey * in front of the line
23:42:08 <zzo38> O, it is very compact
23:42:50 <zzo38> Well, I like the way I have it on my computer, that is why I made it like this. This way it will display all of the fields, in the colors according to which field it is
23:43:48 <AnMaster> personally I'm happy with a conventional irc client after some modification of settings
23:43:58 <AnMaster> and I don't mind a few that I don't use
23:44:01 <zzo38> Which settings? And which features?
23:44:22 <zzo38> Yes, but which settings and features, specifically?
23:44:24 <AnMaster> zzo38, well, settings could be some of the formatting strings, like how it should align nicks
23:44:39 <AnMaster> I have it right-align against column 9
23:44:49 <AnMaster> if they are wider they overflow into the text
23:44:56 <AnMaster> but that makes the text quite readable
23:45:23 <AnMaster> "never send a version reply" of course too
23:45:44 <AnMaster> default quit message change. some aliases
23:45:54 <AnMaster> like I set /aa to mean "allserv away
23:46:15 <AnMaster> allserv means "send once to each server I'm connected to"
23:46:28 <AnMaster> this lets me set away status quickly
23:47:10 <zzo38> The client I use supports some of these features. /SET ANSWER is used to tell it whether or not to autoreply to VERSION and stuff
23:47:10 <AnMaster> zzo38, oh and where I want to have the channel tree view
23:47:27 <AnMaster> for server and channels under it
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23:47:32 <zzo38> /SET FORMAT turns on formatting by control codes or off to make it display the control codes themself, instead
23:47:40 <zzo38> /SET SHOWTIME makes it show the time
23:48:08 <AnMaster> zzo38, well, not the kind of options I would set. Also are they saved?
23:48:23 <zzo38> And /MAC can be used to set macros, including the things you have described, such as QUIT message and AWAY and stuff
23:48:28 <AnMaster> zzo38, and more important: will it support multiple servers and handle hundreds of channels easily
23:48:37 <zzo38> No, they are not saved, but you can store them in the configuration file and then it will be automatically set
23:48:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I can paste the new lines in /msg
23:48:54 <ehird> AnMaster: dcc it if you want
23:49:32 <ehird> Damn, OS X is so comfy coming from an iPhone.
23:49:57 <zzo38> AnMaster: No, it can't support many channels simultaneously currently, although you can have multiple servers in multiple windows. Possibly I can add a way to create a new window with the same server and different filters, and create a macro to redirect each channel to a separate window, maybe in the next version
23:51:04 <AnMaster> zzo38, I don't think I will use your irc client anyway
23:51:14 <AnMaster> partly because I'm happy with what I use already
23:51:20 <AnMaster> partly because we have different goals
23:51:20 <zzo38> AnMaster: That's OK
23:51:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> Damn, OS X is so comfy coming from an iPhone. <-- I thought iphone ran OS X. Well a scaled down version of it.
23:52:00 <ehird> With a totally different UI, yes.
23:52:16 <ehird> It's remarkably easy to do research and stuff on for something so small.
23:52:25 <ehird> But a real Mac kind of blows it out of the water a billion times.
23:52:31 <AnMaster> ehird, be glad that you can use apps from elsewhere than OS X AppStore ;P
23:52:54 <zzo38> And of course, the command /SET AUTOPONG is useful too
23:52:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I bet a real linux system would as well.
23:53:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, it would.
23:53:10 <ehird> I never contested that,
23:53:18 <AnMaster> zzo38, I don't think it should be an option. Rather always have it on. There is no point in not having it
23:53:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well I didn't mean to imply you did
23:53:32 <ehird> The iPhone is pretty flawless as a mobile device and does remarkably well for non-mobile things; that's all I'm saying.
23:53:37 <ehird> But a full computer is, yeah, better.
23:53:41 <zzo38> I know a few people who turn it off sometimes (I don't know what client, though)
23:54:32 <AnMaster> zzo38, only reason I can think of is ircd developing and testing some weird bug related to it
23:54:39 <AnMaster> but then I would be using netcat anyway
23:55:21 <zzo38> What I have seen is some people prefer to turn off autopong instead of quitting
23:55:37 <zzo38> But I don't know why
23:55:58 <AnMaster> maybe a good way to try to not look as if they quit in a row or such
23:57:14 <zzo38> Do your IRC clients mask the password? I have heard that some people say their client won't mask the password
23:57:37 <zzo38> Hopefully, if it doesn't do so, you can modify the software or tell the people who wrote it to fix it
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00:12:52 <ehird> You know, I could really do with 2560x1440 pixels of screen real estate.
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00:44:34 <ehird> http://nodejs.org/ this is cool beans
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02:03:07 <snakbar> do you know where i can find sources of bacical linux commands like grep, cat, ls and stuff
02:06:36 <soupdragon> http://savannah.gnu.org/search/?words=grep&type_of_search=soft&Search=Search&exact=1#options
02:14:48 <ehird> :( gnu tools r teh sux
02:14:59 <ehird> snakbar: look at the bsd implementations or sth
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02:19:29 <ehird> gnu is waaaay inferior to unix, specifically by breaking the very underpinning of unix and then pretending it's still there
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03:03:34 <snakbar> what does it mean, underpinning?
03:05:42 <ehird> same as "backbone" if you know that idiom
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03:10:01 <ehird> snakbar: basically... the underlying concepts
03:10:11 <ehird> the thing that makes it all work in the way it does, the unifying idea
03:10:38 <snakbar> so you're saying that linux is not an Unix system?
03:13:03 <snakbar> shit, i'm going to try bsd
03:13:48 <ehird> snakbar: when i say unix i mean the unix philosophy
03:14:05 <ehird> tools that do only one task, that are the same from a terminal or piped to another process, etc
03:32:07 <pikhq> BSD is, in fact, UNIX.
03:33:44 <pikhq> And Linux isn't a UNIX system, it's just a decent kernel that can be the base of a GNU system.
03:33:48 <ehird> not very catchy acronym
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04:44:25 <ehird> Ihttp://www.loper-os.org/?p=55
04:44:28 <ehird> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55
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12:20:34 <fizzie> Haven't seen any fizzies around.
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12:21:44 <fungot> asiekierka: fnord anyway. :p what a great language for fnord.
12:23:13 <asiekierka> any sources you recommend on lerning Befunge or any other esolang
12:23:17 <asiekierka> cuz i want to make a minecraft server..
12:24:58 <asiekierka> (i could code a network extension, dont worry)
12:26:05 <fizzie> I don't know if I've ever actually used any specific sources, mostly just the language specifications themselves. There's not that much "training material" for esolangs, I don't think. Except maybe for INTERCAL there are some more tutorialistic things.
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12:28:42 <fizzie> I think that's more of a matter of personal preference. It's not usually the point with these languages to start thinking so much of their suitability to the task at hand.
12:29:49 <fizzie> How coincidental: I had partially already written this: "I would love to do something overcomplicated in one of the image-based languages, but that's just me."
12:31:45 <asiekierka> there's Piet, Piet-Q, Deltaplex, Omegaplex...
12:33:34 <fizzie> Mycelium, though I don't think it's an especially elegant one.
12:40:47 <asiekierka> Is the network layer any easy in Befunge-98?
12:42:31 <fizzie> There's specific extensions for networking in Funge-98; SOCK and SCKE and whatever the newfangled ones were that people were developing to fix the deficiencies of those two.
12:42:58 <fizzie> I guess they're pretty reasonable, as far as those things go.
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12:50:06 <asiekierka> What would be the weirdest language (with network facilities or a way to add them in even if adding new instructions) to make a server in?
12:53:10 <Sgeo> Well, brainfuck can be given server capacities with PSOX
12:53:17 <Sgeo> Or just setting up some.. pipes thingy
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13:07:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw I think I beat you at "crazy things to do with hugin"
13:07:28 <fizzie> I wasn't aware that we had a competition going on.
13:07:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, a photo of an xmas tree composed out of over 40 pictures
13:07:53 * AnMaster will upload said tree in a minute
13:09:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, I just need to convert it from a 16-bit per channel tiff with AdobeRGB to a 8-bit per channel jpeg with sRGB
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13:10:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: There was quite heavy snowfall today, so I took a picture out of that same window-at-work to show how dramatically reduced the visibility was: http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk2.jpg → http://zem.fi/g2/d/8542-1/20091222_002.jpg
13:11:58 <fizzie> (Just one, didn't bother taking the full view this time.)
13:12:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, the second is higher res?
13:12:20 <fizzie> The second is directly from the phone with no scalings.
13:12:32 <fizzie> The sort of thing that was the source material for the first.
13:13:34 <AnMaster> "The image 'xmas_tree_8bit.tif' has an embedded color profile:\n sRGB built-in\nConvert the image to RGB working space (sRGB built-in)?"
13:16:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, and yes that is quite reduced visibility
13:17:06 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMzIxZQ/xmas_tree_8bit.jpg
13:18:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, not a panorama because there would be way parallax without a panoramic head.
13:18:23 <AnMaster> (I'm considering getting one maybe)
13:18:58 <fizzie> The magical balls of light look nice.
13:23:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh around the electric lamps thingies?
13:23:57 <fizzie> Yes. They look like special effects for glowy magic things in a fantasy whatever.
13:25:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, you can see how low the noise is when you zoom the ceiling btw. That is because for each shutter speed I took 4 photos and merged them to denoise (see the panotools wiki for more info on that, you use enfuse for it)
13:25:35 <AnMaster> then all the "denoised" pictures were merged into the final HDR image
13:25:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, sadly the reduction to 8 bits removed some fine details from the lamp in the background
13:26:02 <AnMaster> it has a rather nice pattern on it
13:26:45 <fizzie> All that effort for a christmas tree?-)
13:29:56 <fizzie> I don't think I have anything very photogenic around to play Hugin/panotools tricks with.
13:30:38 <fizzie> Nah, the cat would probably just try to eat it and/or the decorations. It does that to anything new.
13:31:00 <fizzie> The cat would be a good subject for photography experiments, but it doesn't quite understand the "staying still" thing.
13:31:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, you can extract a bit of HDR-ness from raw images usually. Generally there is slightly more than 8 bits per channel in them
13:31:47 <AnMaster> for example mine has 12 bits per channel
13:32:28 <fizzie> Yes, I think that's what my camera shoots too.
13:34:18 <fizzie> Hrm, "dcraw -i -v" doesn't say about bit depths; just the image size, filter pattern and some strange multiplier values.
13:35:12 <AnMaster> nice preview thing and such and when you are happy with the settings you can save a script and use it to ufraw-batch (since you want same white balance for all images in the HDR merge and such)
13:35:12 <fizzie> Well, I've used the ufraw GUI, but I'm not at home right now and didn't want to bother with X forwarding.
13:35:50 <AnMaster> anyway for editing there are two options basically: cinepaint and krita
13:35:56 <AnMaster> since gimp doesn't do more than 8 bits per channel
13:36:36 <fizzie> Oh, cinepaint's what used to be film-gimp? Didn't know that.
13:37:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, I haven't tried cinepaint, but from what I heard it is not a very nice experience when it comes to the user-interface
13:37:19 <AnMaster> so I stuck with krita, which isn't too fun either
13:37:30 <AnMaster> (but which at least has an ubuntu package)
13:38:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh btw I have been using ethernet over firewire recently. Because working with 70 MB+ tiffs isn't fun over 100 mbit ethernet
13:39:33 <AnMaster> (reason I do it over network is that laptop is faster but the desktop monitor is better. However the laptop's graphics is unable to drive my desktop monitor in it's highest resolution. I guess 1400x1050 isn't very common)
13:41:52 <asiekierka> web servers run on everything these days
13:42:00 <asiekierka> i am going to run a server on a pokemon mini
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15:28:52 <FireFly> I don't think so, and no, wasn't serious :P
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16:01:55 <ehird> http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/m4w/1520403262.html
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16:08:22 <ehird> aaaaand http://i.imgur.com/hF6mS.jpg
16:10:38 <ehird> "For Mac, a complete rewrite in Cocoa brings an Unified Toolbar, native buttons and scrollbars, multi-touch gestures (try 3-Finger Swipe Left/Right or Pinch to zoom) and a bunch of other small details. We also added Growl notification support."
16:10:48 <ehird> Did... did you just do the right, difficult thing, and become respectable?
16:13:50 <ehird> Oh hey, the icon is less horribly ugly now too.
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16:17:21 <ehird> FireFly: you're now less ridiculously silly for using opera!
16:18:00 <ehird> "For Mac, a complete rewrite in Cocoa brings an Unified Toolbar, native buttons and scrollbars, multi-touch gestures (try 3-Finger Swipe Left/Right or Pinch to zoom) and a bunch of other small details. We also added Growl notification support."
16:18:03 <ehird> they finally came to their senses
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16:34:18 <ehird> AnMaster: no reply—worryingly, but then not everybody spends all day on the computer
16:34:26 <ehird> especially if they're not preparing to kill themselves
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16:41:51 <ehird> "How many atheists are there on /r/atheism? Upvote to count yourselves (i created this throwaway name so it won't affect my karma)."
16:41:51 <ehird> RIP Reddit's Lack of Having Completely, Utterly and Irreversibly Jumped the Shark, 2005—2009
16:45:40 <Asztal> I unsubscribed from /r/atheism a long time ago, problem solved!
16:45:58 <Asztal> For definitions of "solved" close enough to "ignored"
16:46:19 <asiekierka> involvig either esolangs or old computers
16:49:17 <ehird> Asztal: Yess, but the cancer, it doth spread.
16:49:36 <ehird> asiekierka: Take over Rc/Funge! Wait, no. Don't do that.
16:50:54 <ehird> oklopol has experience with infinite-dimensional things
16:51:23 <ehird> You do not have to listen.
16:52:23 <Asztal> Popping infinite scalars from the stack when you want a vector will be fun.
16:52:47 <ehird> asiekierka: befunge-93 or -98?
16:53:03 <ehird> I'd suggest adapting -93 because the "meat" of the problems you'll face will be in the -93 stuff
16:53:15 <ehird> also, make it 80x24x80x24x80x24x... :-D
16:53:35 <ehird> That's boring, asiekierka — because
16:53:40 <ehird> that way you don't have to use the dimensions to be TC
16:53:55 <ehird> If it's 80x24x80x24x..., not only does it respect Befunge heritage,
16:54:03 <ehird> but it means you have to fiddle with the dimensions to get TCness
16:54:29 <asiekierka> i'm worried about RAM requirements though... D:
16:55:17 <ehird> there is no way you coded a working version in that time
16:55:21 <ehird> because there are many subtle issues to address
16:55:46 <pikhq> ehird: That "upvote to count yourselves" thing isn't irreversible. Thank God that humans are capable of leaving sites after they used to frequent it. :P
16:55:54 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/inffunge.exe
16:55:57 <Asztal> there could be an infinite amount of dimensions that you can't actually access
16:56:27 <ehird> "undiagnosed ADHD", AKA "I can be as annoying as I want, I have a mental illness don't you see! I don't have to change anything!"
16:56:45 <ehird> pikhq: it's been steadily increasing since the epoch
16:56:56 <ehird> asiekierka: It should work on every PC running Windows, you mean.
16:57:06 <ehird> Which is a low percentage of PCs in this channel.
16:57:07 <AnMaster> how do you know if it is ADHD if it is undiagnosed?
16:57:09 <ehird> In conclusion, source of GTFO.
16:57:20 <pikhq> asiekierka: Source or GTFO.
16:57:20 <ehird> AnMaster: because people on the internet think they know about things like that
16:57:40 <ehird> "I have asperger's syndrome! Therefore it's ALL YOUR FAULT! I CAN'T HELP BEING A SMARMY RETARD!"
16:57:48 <ehird> asiekierka: the door is that way →
16:57:54 <ehird> we are not interested
16:57:55 <AnMaster> ehird, btw you commented on bad picture yesterday. I'm creating a better one. Macro photography rocks
16:58:33 <pikhq> I have actual autism, you cock. Don't claim pretend Asperger's syndrome. :P
16:59:07 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/inffunge.pas - i think my FTP connection glitched, not sure if it works
16:59:53 <asiekierka> as i made enough space-time distortions doing it once
17:00:17 <pikhq> Pascal must be pretty impressive, to make language implementations in two lines.
17:00:29 <asiekierka> i think my FTP connection died for a second
17:01:08 <ehird> So can we all agree that asiekierka is an idiot, socially retarded and annoying?
17:01:28 <ehird> And that not only does his program probably not work due to the subtle issues required to be resolved to get infinite-dimensional Befunge to work,
17:01:35 <ehird> but it's probably a retarded prank that asiekierka thinks is funny?
17:01:40 <ehird> And that the door is over there?
17:02:25 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/inffunge.pas
17:02:34 <pikhq> ehird: Yes. I will note only one of the three has anything to do with Asperger's syndrome (well, unless you mean "common traits in people who self-diagnose")
17:03:23 <asiekierka> h - Increase the number of the dimension operating on
17:03:30 <ehird> Asperger's syndrome today is complete and utter rubbish; a label used by society to mean "person we do not like; for he is less emotionally crazy and more intelligent than us".
17:03:46 <asiekierka> a - Move left in the dimension you're on
17:03:51 <asiekierka> d - Move right in the dimension you're on
17:03:51 <ehird> Perhaps Hans Asperger's original work was sane and reasonable; but what we mean when we say "Asperger's" today is a complete lie.
17:04:06 <ehird> asiekierka: that way you can only work in finite dimensionns
17:04:11 <ehird> so it's arbitrary dimensions, not infinite
17:04:20 <asiekierka> ehird: Infinite = 65535 on 16-bit platforms
17:04:34 <pikhq> ehird: Hans Asperger's work described a disorder similar to autism, with a few differing features.
17:05:05 <pikhq> Such as most people with the syndrome being of average or above average intelligence, and a lack of a delay in speech.
17:05:25 <ehird> I'd also argue that "light" autism is different from "severe" autism, and only the latter is actually a condition as opposed to simply another combination of neural structure + personality.
17:05:44 <ehird> (Zefram (yes, the nomic Zefram) wrote a fun little thing on this... http://www.fysh.org/~zefram/allism/allism_intro.txt)
17:06:14 <ehird> It still astounds me what a ridiculously bad idea empathy is.
17:06:26 <ehird> http://i.imgur.com/wdcUK.jpg trippy
17:06:27 <pikhq> I'd note that any psychologist worth his/her salt only gives a flying fuck about a disorder if it actually causes problems.
17:06:56 <pikhq> Oh, and that people suck. That's a nice thing to note, as well.
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17:07:55 <ehird> pikhq: And uses actual neural properties instead of the Holy Lord of Let's Make This a Disorder, the DSM.
17:07:55 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://i.imgur.com/wdcUK.jpg trippy <-- a pitty it doesn't join up well for the lower picture
17:08:20 <ehird> pikhq: And by that correct definition, the percentage of psychologists worth their salt is less than 10%.
17:08:21 <AnMaster> (it isn't perfect for the upper image, but much better)
17:08:45 <ehird> Psychology is almost entirely based on consensus, not evidence; rubbish, not science.
17:08:48 <ehird> And it's a damn shame.
17:09:15 <Sgeo> That sounds like the same idea as http://isnt.autistics.org/
17:09:22 <ehird> Sgeo: It links to it at the end.
17:09:31 <ehird> But allism has some truth behind the joke.
17:09:52 <ehird> Most of the effects of allism are negative.
17:12:51 <ehird> "It's also possible that you thought many-worlds means "all the worlds I can imagine exist" and that you decided it'd be cool if there existed a world where Jesus is Batman, therefore many-worlds is true no matter what the average physicist says. In this case you're just believing for general contrarian reasons, and you're probably more likely to believe in homeopathy as well."
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17:15:59 <asiekierka> i believe there's a world where i'm not an idiot
17:16:38 <ehird> That world is one in which you are not you.
17:17:03 <asiekierka> well, the many-worlds theory I believe
17:17:14 <asiekierka> is that when anything happens at any given microsecond
17:17:28 <ehird> You are about to demonstrate your severe physics-related ignorance.
17:17:30 <asiekierka> the universe splits into two: the version where it happened and the version where opposite did
17:17:35 <Sgeo> I don't want to believe the many-worlds theory, but not for any good logical reason. I just hate the implications for time travel
17:17:42 <asiekierka> by "i believe" i mean "i like and could be useful for games"
17:17:51 <ehird> Many worlds is the only thing that would make time travel possible.
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17:20:58 <AnMaster> I think *one* of the problem with the many universe stuff is that people have a problem remembering the difference between a potential phase-space and "actually exists"
17:21:01 <pikhq> Many worlds is the only interpretation that leaves travelling backwards feasible...
17:21:47 <Sgeo> What about something like Nomikov's self consistency princible, or whatever it's called
17:21:52 <ehird> pikhq: Beware; Sgeo's next argument will be "but it means that I will never see my REAL parents again if I ever travel in time!!!"
17:22:07 <ehird> Which is, of course, dualism.
17:22:12 <pikhq> (travelling forward in time is, of course, merely a matter of relativity)
17:22:17 <asiekierka> I wonder if it'll be possible to travel to the other worlds if many-worlds are true
17:22:21 <ehird> Sgeo becomes scientifically absurd in T-10 seconds
17:22:31 <asiekierka> so i can see myself as not an idiot and destroy the multiverses!
17:23:05 <ehird> Sgeo: the Novikov self-consistency principle does not help at all
17:23:19 <ehird> Sgeo: As per chaos theory, more or less ANYTHING you do back in time will change the future.
17:23:25 <ehird> Thus violating the principle.
17:23:47 <ehird> Ergo, all time travel beyond perhaps sending a microscopic, instantly-evaporating black hole into a backwater region of space would be impossible.
17:24:59 <asiekierka> what about sending your soul back in time
17:25:20 <ehird> There is no such thing as a soul.
17:26:26 <ehird> As does Russell's Teapot.
17:26:44 <Asztal> I bet the FSM put it there
17:27:25 <ehird> No, it was the Invisible Pink Unicorn, heathen!
17:28:06 <pikhq> ehird: It depends on how you define "soul".
17:28:32 <ehird> soul, n. a word used to signal that the person referring to it as existing is a dualist.
17:28:40 <ehird> dualist: see idiot
17:29:03 <pikhq> "The exact state of everything within your body that affects the nervous system" might be a usable definition of "soul".
17:29:15 <pikhq> Granted, said definition is rarely, if ever, used.
17:29:29 <ehird> Brain + spine is probably enough to count as your "soul"
17:30:30 <pikhq> asiekierka: Said quantum stuff that is relevant is entirely in the brain...
17:31:08 <ehird> DING DING DING QUANTUM MYSTICIST DETECTED
17:31:16 <ehird> DISPOSAL MECHANISM INITIALISATING
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17:32:14 <pikhq> ehird: I seem to recall that the functioning of neurons did kinda rely upon quantum mechanics (though I may be wrong in that). ... Of course, "rely upon quantum mechanics" is quite different from "QUANTUM MEANS ITS TRUE."
17:32:33 <ehird> Everything relies upon quantum mechanics. :P
17:35:00 <pikhq> Kinda meant something like "work in ways only explained by quantum mechanics, not by classical mechanics".
17:36:42 <asiekierka> you could say that [random word] is quantum mechanics
17:37:19 <pikhq> "x is quantum mechanics" really doesn't mean anywhere near as much as people think it does.
17:37:45 <pikhq> "Oh no, the probabilistic effects of individual particles makes a difference!"
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17:43:39 <asiekierka> you define a soul as a sign that a person is a dualist
17:43:55 <ehird> if you think a soul exists you're a dualist, obviously
17:43:55 <asiekierka> what about a soul dualist (they believe more than 1 soul exists in a body which is insane)
17:43:56 <ehird> that's the definition
17:44:12 <ehird> also, he's asiekierka being annoying
17:44:15 <asiekierka> Soul dualism or a dualistic soul concept is a range of beliefs that a person has two (or more) kinds of souls.
17:46:43 <kwertii> pikhq: you're right re: quantum brain stuff. cf Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff's work on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orch-OR#The_quantum_level
17:47:35 <ehird> kwertii: that's not the same thing
17:47:56 <ehird> penrose just hates the idea of an algorithmic brain
17:48:04 <ehird> pikhq was just talking about how neurons physically work
17:48:40 <kwertii> ehird: their theory talks about that, too. they postulate that microtubules in neurons, whose function is unknown, actually conduct quantum-level calculations
17:49:22 <ehird> Seems like grasping at straws to avoid a deterministic, algorithmic mind.
17:49:23 <kwertii> based on the observation that information propagates through the brain far faster than a chemically mediated neural network would allow
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17:54:53 <kwertii> ehird: if people do have algorithmic minds, then 99.999999999% of them are seriously broken.
17:55:16 <ehird> minds are algorithmic != minds can be irrational
17:55:24 <ehird> algorithmic does not mean we are bayesian rationalists.
17:55:28 <kwertii> I didn't say that it implied a contradiction
17:55:33 <kwertii> just an empirical observation
17:55:43 <ehird> our minds are not broken, they are just adjusted to different things than we might want them to be
17:56:18 <kwertii> ehird: how do the Goedel and Tarski incompleteness theorems fit into your model?
17:57:09 <Sgeo> If we don't have a deterministic, algorithmic mind, then we have a random mind. I don't see how quantum randomness is likely to affect something on the scale of neurons, though
17:57:18 <ehird> Gödel, Escher, Bach had some stuff about that, positing that sentience arises from Gödel's incompleteness theorem
17:57:26 <ehird> I'm not so sure about that
17:57:50 <asiekierka> in an attempt to make my brain blow up
17:58:06 <lament> asiekierka: sadly this stuff is mildly on-topic
17:58:09 <kwertii> if anyone would prefer to discuss brainfuck coding, I will yield the floor :p
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17:58:29 <Sgeo> I'm willing to discuss PSOX (*everyone runs*)
17:58:35 <ehird> lament: if you hate 90% of what goes on in this channel why do you stay :)
17:58:57 <lament> looking for better excuses to ban you all
17:59:18 * Sgeo laments the fact that lament wants to ban us
17:59:49 <asiekierka> ehird: there must be an op here stupid
18:00:33 <kwertii> ehird: essentially, Tarski proved a more general version of Goedel, that any logically coherent system capable of defining its own syntax is incapable of defining semantic notions such as "truth" itself, necessarily requiring extrinsic stipulations. This would seem to imply that a purely logical and deterministically algorithmic brain is impossible, given that we have such notions.
18:02:48 <Sgeo> Who said that are brains are purely logical?
18:03:03 <Sgeo> deterministically algorithmic does not imply logical
18:03:26 <kwertii> Sgeo: interesting, please clarify how a system can be deterministic without being logical
18:04:06 * Sgeo might have misread. Thought that you were implying that people were logical, not the system
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18:04:27 <anmaster_l> argh my other connection is lagging out
18:04:29 <kwertii> Sgeo: well, my own personal position is that people are mostly irrational :)
18:05:33 <ehird> asiekierka: fizzie is an op stupid
18:05:37 <lament> kwertii: what does rationality have to do with logic
18:05:47 <asiekierka> ehird: this channel needs more than one op stupid
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18:05:58 <asiekierka> ehird: thanks to offtopic derailers like thou
18:06:12 <ehird> asiekierka: except op powers are very rarely used
18:06:24 * kwertii wants a T-shirt that says "What does rationality have to do with logic" now
18:06:29 <lament> kwertii: well what does it?
18:06:40 <lament> kwertii: please define rationality and see for yourself that it's not much.
18:06:55 <ehird> rationality is applied logic
18:07:23 <kwertii> lament: according to commonly used definitions and mores, ehird is correct, rationality is logic applied to some decisionmaking process
18:07:59 <kwertii> lament: etymologically, rationality is "that which has to do with ratios", which are (logically defined) mathematical constructs
18:09:53 * Sgeo becomes a fervent supporter of fractionism
18:10:09 <lament> kwertii: what does it mean "to apply logic to a process"?
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18:10:21 <ehird> lament: you're the one who told us to fuck off to ##philosophy
18:10:30 <ehird> why are you dragging us into less and less meaningful and concrete realms?
18:11:14 <anmaster_l> now shake each other hands. Without holding one of those prank buzzers
18:11:26 <pikhq> NO. WE HATE BEING CALM.
18:11:40 <pikhq> ... Prank buzzers?
18:11:57 <kwertii> lament: to make an attempt to analyze a process in an internally consistent (i.e. not self-contradictory) manner consistent with the rules of logic..
18:11:58 <ehird> Okay. I'll use an industry-grade buzzer.
18:11:58 <ehird> pikhq: little electric shock thingy you hold in your hand
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18:12:32 <ehird> kwertii: BUT. WHAT. IS. "LOGIC"
18:12:35 <lament> kwertii: well, ok. You don't need any notions of truth for that. You just need a notion of consistency.
18:12:39 <pikhq> I prefer lethal buzzeers.
18:12:39 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, I know.
18:12:41 <ehird> AND WHAT IS A "CONTRADICTION" — REALLY
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18:13:00 <kwertii> lament: who said you need a notion of truth? :p
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18:13:16 <lament> kwertii: you did, when you were talking about Tarski
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18:13:32 <kwertii> lament: 2 + 2 = 5 is a logically consistent but false statement
18:13:34 <ehird> lament: interestingly enough, I know how to change my username.
18:14:01 <ehird> 2 + 2 = 5 isn't logically consistent given PA :P
18:14:25 <kwertii> lament: the essence of the Tarski/Goedel proofs is that there are statements like "This statement is false" which are syntactically consistent but which cannot be evaluated for truth value because they are paradoxical
18:14:42 <lament> kwertii: sure. but truth value is irrelevant to rationality by your definition.
18:14:53 <kwertii> lament: I said extrinsic, not irrelevant
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18:15:42 <kwertii> lament: my original point was that the brain could not be purely logical, as ehird suggested, because we have these very relevant notions like truth that cannot be logically defined and must be extrinsic to any logical system
18:16:36 <lament> kwertii: "truth" is a very high-level notion and there's little evidence that it actually exists in the brain as such
18:16:56 <lament> kwertii: on the other hand, bayesian probability gives a very good model of how such a notion could be constructed mathematically
18:17:24 <lament> what's more, there's experimental evidence that shows that bayesian probability is pretty much how actual humans evaluate truth
18:17:41 <kwertii> lament: sure, but you need some a priori stipulation of what data is "true" to train your bayesian model..
18:18:43 <lament> no, you need some a priori stipulation of what data is "likely"
18:19:02 <kwertii> the exact label doesn't matter
18:19:18 <lament> it does if you're going to confuse the notions of likelihood and of truth in the formal logic sense
18:19:29 <kwertii> in an evolutionary sense, we can say the brain trains statistically on survivable behaviors based on the environment
18:19:46 <kwertii> and in a longer timeframe, genes do the same
18:20:09 <lament> kwertii: that's reasonable, and has nothing to do with formal logic whatsoever
18:20:18 <kwertii> but we are still left with the question of "pure" truths like 2+2=4 that are divorced from the environment, or at least seem to be
18:22:35 <kwertii> if we're in the business of making machines that run programs, this is a very important question. how do we distinguish 2+2=4 versus 2+2=5?
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18:26:18 <lament> http://i.imgur.com/hF6mS.jpg
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18:29:59 <uorygl> No! You shall not hate Haskell!
18:30:23 * uorygl grabs a cloak and dagger.
18:30:41 <lament> something tells me that pic was made by a haskell fan :)
18:30:43 <Gracenotes> don't tell God about your hatred either. he might smite you.
18:31:03 <uorygl> This is a completely legal cloak and dagger.
18:31:23 <Gracenotes> I just don't get all of the cells, though
18:31:35 <uorygl> Unfortunately, that means that the word "and" means its legal sense, "i.e.". It's a single object that's both a cloak and a dagger.
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18:34:12 <Gracenotes> someone also provided http://imgur.com/P9RnL
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18:37:18 <anmaster_l> <Gracenotes> someone also provided http://imgur.com/P9RnL <-- hahah
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18:39:53 <Gracenotes> the whole idea is rather ridiculous.. there's an obvious conflation of the languages and those who use them, and attempts at illustrating the former look rather flimsy
18:40:27 <kwertii> Gracenotes: er.. I think it's a joke :p
18:41:01 <ehird> the haskell one where they're all einstein is the superior one
18:41:19 <ehird> the whole joke is that what people hate about haskell is what haskellers love about it
18:41:34 <kwertii> and where is the Lisp column?
18:41:56 <lament> ehird: it's more funny but it's hardly an unbiased comparison :)
18:42:05 <ehird> http://twitter.com/SarahPalinUSA/status/6823906156 what
18:42:09 <ehird> lament: nor is the other image :P
18:42:28 <ehird> kwertii: lisp is (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( for everyone but lispers; they have a guru meditating
18:42:47 <ehird> for haskellers lisp is, uh, something else
18:42:56 <lament> for haskellers lisp would be yet another train wreck
18:43:05 <lament> perhaps the babel tower?
18:43:05 <uorygl> For Haskell people, Lisp is a Rube Goldberg machine.
18:43:27 <ehird> AnMaster: translation from twitterfied retardese to retardese: "Earth saw climate change for eons; will continue to see changes. Our duty is to responsibly develop resources for humankind and not pollute and destroy, but you can't alter natural change.@
18:43:48 <ehird> lisp is universally acknowledged as minimalist, well not common lisp okay, but still
18:43:51 <uorygl> I'm pretty much a Haskell person; when I look at Lisp, I think, "Aiee! Side effects! Incomprehensible evaluation semantics! That's not a REAL functional programming language!"
18:43:54 <ehird> not a rube goldberg machine
18:44:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't get the black box for php fans / haskell
18:44:07 <ehird> Lisp's evaluation semantics are trivial
18:44:12 <uorygl> Okay, it's a Rube Goldberg machine made out of hundreds of copies of a single device. :-P
18:44:17 <ehird> AnMaster: look up black box
18:44:18 <uorygl> Yes, but I'm a Haskell person! I don't know that!
18:44:31 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/ahixe/twitter_account_of_a_9_year_old/c0hl7ey?context=1
18:44:34 <kwertii> uorygl: when Lispers look at Haskell, we think, "Ah, a convoluted subset of some of the stuff Lisp can do, but with a more obtuse syntax" :p
18:44:39 <AnMaster> something you can't see how it works inside
18:45:07 <ehird> haskell is a superset of lisp actually
18:45:26 <AnMaster> also poor that tron person who has been used for "mad mad nerd" everywhere
18:45:29 <ehird> assuming haskell includes template haskell
18:45:51 <pikhq> Different type system, Haskell enforces purity, and rather different syntax.
18:46:24 <pikhq> (Haskell goes for "readability", rather than "trivial parsing")
18:46:27 <ehird> Bah, I'm itching for some OSery.
18:46:29 <kwertii> If a tree falls in a forest without side effects, does it make a sound?
18:46:39 <ehird> Lisp is readable enough, I just don't find it so writable
18:46:55 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah, but readability is not what it's optimised for.
18:47:12 <kwertii> ehird: emacs autoindent and auto-paren matching helps immensely
18:47:24 <ehird> kwertii: I've used paredit, don't think I'm ignorant of Lisps.
18:47:39 <ehird> I stand by what I said, though.
18:47:47 <kwertii> ehird: if you think it's hard to write, you're doing it wrong. let the computer worry about the hard part
18:48:00 <ehird> kwertii: Yes, I too once parroted the typical Lisper slogans.
18:48:18 <ehird> I still stand by my informed opinion. :)
18:48:20 <uorygl> I think the ability to define infix operators in Haskell is a great feature. I think Lisp doesn't exactly have that feature.
18:48:24 <pikhq> If your editor needs to be that freaking smart just to make the editing tolerable, the syntax sucks.
18:48:26 <ehird> It's not the parens that make it difficult, btw.
18:49:21 <kwertii> uorygl: you could write infix operators in a DSL with macros if you really wanted to...
18:49:43 <ehird> kwertii: that argument is akin to the Turing-Equivalence Argument for Language Irrelevance
18:49:55 <ehird> yes, you can do that, but it's Bad Lisp and the Lispers will verily Kill You with Forks and Pitches Thereof
18:50:05 <pikhq> In Haskell, you write infix operators as follows: foo & bar = -- code here
18:50:05 <kwertii> yeah, why would you want to? is my point
18:50:14 <ehird> kwertii: so let's examine that argument structure
18:50:18 <ehird> "I like to be able to do X."
18:50:23 <pikhq> Or: foo `bar` baz = -- code here
18:50:33 <ehird> "Lisp can do X if you don't care about conventions at all. This demonstrates my point that you wouldn't want to."
18:50:40 <ehird> that...doesn't really make sense at all
18:50:46 <uorygl> Or (&) foo bar = -- code here, or bar foo baz = -- code here!
18:50:49 <pikhq> kwertii: Which is more readable: 2 + 2, or (+ 2 2)?
18:51:01 <kwertii> ehird: rather, he said he didn't think Lisp could do X. I clarified that it can. (with tangential side comment about why would you want to)
18:51:02 <pikhq> uorygl: Yes, that is the desugaring.
18:51:11 <ehird> Math notation arguments are silly.
18:51:24 <uorygl> Have I already said that I like to avoid parentheses for grouping?
18:51:25 <ehird> It's not hard to read parenthesised prefix mathematical notation.
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18:51:36 <ehird> The question is whether prefix notation is better elsewhere.
18:52:01 <ehird> kwertii: Well, technically it *can't* do X.
18:52:01 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah, it's not the math that makes it absurdly difficult....
18:52:01 <ehird> you can't make (2 + 2) work without modifying the compiler (which is cheating)
18:52:03 <pikhq> Just takes a bit of getting used to.
18:52:07 <kwertii> pikhq: I actually prefer a unitary syntax. instead of foo(x, y) and x foo y and xfoo, there's just (foo x y).
18:52:14 <uorygl> Humans aren't (made (to (figure (out (what (the correct (number (of parentheses is.))))))))
18:52:15 <ehird> You can make (infix 2 + 2) work, but that isn't the same.
18:52:24 <kwertii> ehird: sure it can. macros allow you to rewrite the language at runtime. if you want infix notation, you can have it
18:52:26 <ehird> uorygl: rubbish argument
18:52:29 <ehird> editors can do that
18:52:34 <ehird> please, let's have a legit debate about lisp
18:52:37 <ehird> not a schoolkid one
18:52:43 <ehird> all the default arguments are stunningly borring
18:52:54 <uorygl> I feel like there's more to my argument than you countered.
18:52:59 <ehird> kwertii: you can't make (2 + 2) work unless you wrap it in a macro of some sort that walks the code tree
18:53:31 <ehird> So, you cannot implement infix operators in Lisp.
18:53:39 <uorygl> Here, take this: (a (b (c (d (e (f (g (h (i (j (k l))))) m))))))
18:53:45 <uorygl> Which function is the one taking three arguments?
18:53:45 <kwertii> ehird: macros that walk the "code tree" are part of Lisp by definition
18:53:49 <ehird> Unless you use the Lispers' retarded definition made so that they can claim it's possible.
18:53:54 <ehird> kwertii: Yes. That's not the point.
18:54:05 <kwertii> ehird: plus, you get -10 points each for the ad hominems and appeals to boringness :p
18:54:35 <kwertii> uorygl: copypaste to emacs, meta-q and you can see that instantly
18:54:38 <ehird> When did I insult *anyone*?
18:54:52 <ehird> I think we need a new fallacy, ad ad hominem.
18:54:55 * Sgeo feels like a mad scientist
18:54:56 <uorygl> Neat, so with the correct software, it's perfectly readable.
18:55:17 <kwertii> ehird: 10:47a member:kwertii: Yes, I too once parroted the typical Lisper slogans.
18:55:40 <pikhq> uorygl: a . b . c . d . e . f . g $ h (i . j (k l) m -- That?
18:55:42 <uorygl> This is already perfectly readable without any software: a . b . c . d . e . flip f m . g . h . i . j . k $ l
18:55:54 <pikhq> Erm. h (i . j (k l) m)
18:56:06 <ehird> kwertii: that is not what an ad hominem is
18:56:13 <uorygl> pikhq: or something like that, yeah.
18:56:13 <ehird> kwertii: furthermore, you ignored the line after in that quote
18:56:17 <ehird> which fundamentally changes its meaning
18:56:34 <ehird> i.e., your quote, though snappy and, at face value, appealing, contradicts my experience.
18:56:48 <kwertii> ehird: you argued that I was merely parroting typical slogans, ie. that I did not really understand what I was saying and was just repeating something because it was fashionable, thus insulting me rather than speaking to the content of my argument.
18:56:51 <ehird> by saying I used to say it too, I was informing you that no, I'm not some lisp-ignorant newbie
18:56:59 <ehird> kwertii: That was not my intention.
18:57:50 <kwertii> ehird: perhaps a better word choice would help to make your intentions clearer, then
18:58:10 <ehird> kwertii: As I have just explained what I said in longhand, I do not think that is necessary.
18:58:31 <uorygl> It would be nice if we had a language in which we had to state our points clearly rather than connoting them.
18:58:35 <uorygl> Naturally, this is impossible.
18:59:02 <ehird> To me, what I said was perfectly reasonable.
18:59:40 <kwertii> uorygl: I hear this Leibniz guy has a "calculus" that he developed for the purpose of resolving all disputes in a logical manner without emotional encroachment. he says it'll even solve religious and political questions. let's all use that!
19:00:22 <pikhq> kwertii: Out of curiosity, does Lisp have a type system that makes most bugs disappear?
19:00:44 <ehird> you have plenty of bugs in haskell
19:00:50 <kwertii> pikhq: err... no. no language that I'm aware of has a type system that makes most bugs disappear :)
19:00:51 <ehird> they're just harder to detect thus making you think you have less
19:01:06 <ehird> just call me the reasonability referee :P
19:01:25 <pikhq> ehird: "Most". Huge swaths of types of bugs are very tricky to make...
19:01:39 <ehird> Yes, but they're boring, easily-fixed ones.
19:01:41 <ehird> So that's a bit of a "meh".
19:01:59 <ehird> If you want to advocate the type system, advocate from the angle that it increases expressivity (which it does).
19:02:04 <ehird> It's an addition, not a restriction.
19:02:06 <pikhq> Boring, easily-fixed, tedious, and still difficult to find one.
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19:02:47 <kwertii> pikhq: common lisp and some other lisps have optional type declarations for optimization, and as always, if you really want a hard type system, you can write one yourself.
19:02:55 <pikhq> Of course, yes, it also increases expressiveness so very nicely.
19:03:13 <pikhq> kwertii: *facepalm*
19:03:34 <ehird> wow, yet another "LISP CAN DO THAT! notthatyouwanttoCOUGHbutiwontjustifythispartbecauselispcandothatCOUGH" argument
19:03:58 <pikhq> Yes, and C can do lambda. That doesn't mean that C is a functional programming language.
19:04:49 <ehird> incidentally, be careful with the requires-editor-equals-bad argument, haskell strays dangerously close to that
19:05:14 <pikhq> ehird: ... How so? The only tricky bit is the indentation, and that's not too hard.
19:05:18 <pikhq> (not to mention optional)
19:05:35 <ehird> the indentation takes up most of my time when coding haskell in a non-tailored editor
19:05:59 <ehird> an aligned { foo = bar, newline, tab tab tab oops a bit too many backspace backspace , quux =
19:05:59 <pikhq> Try using braces? :P
19:06:05 <ehird> pikhq: non-idiomatic
19:06:22 <uorygl> Are braces ugly in other languages?
19:06:33 <pikhq> uorygl: Python. :P
19:06:52 <uorygl> Does indentation also take up most of one's time when coding Python in a non-tailored editor?
19:07:22 <kwertii> the editor argument is kind of specious. I'm sure in 1955 some computer scientists were having the same argument about whether using a language that requires a compiler to be able to create programs was a negative point.
19:07:26 <pikhq> Actually, the same is true of any language where indentation is idiomatic...
19:07:28 <uorygl> I guess I wouldn't notice these things, as I use Notepad for everything.
19:08:00 <ehird> pikhq: no, not probably
19:08:15 <ehird> in python, it's always a multiple of one indentation width
19:08:18 <ehird> but since haskell aligns, not so
19:08:25 <ehird> and that is a bitch if you're not using emacs or yi
19:08:48 * pikhq tries to find a rather good example of Haskell's type system making things nicer to work with...
19:08:58 <pikhq> I think I'm going to have to go with Parsec.
19:09:13 <ehird> yep, monads are a great example of something you can't really do properly without strong types
19:09:23 <ehird> and parsec is an excellent example of monads
19:09:43 <kwertii> pikhq: I've written a bunch of code in both static and dynamic languages. in my experience, there's very little difference in terms of avoiding bugs but on the other hand I have to introduce 50 million type casts or equivalent all over the place in the static languages.
19:10:06 <pikhq> kwertii: ... Which static languages have you written in?
19:10:19 <pikhq> I'm guessing ones with C-like type systems.
19:10:20 <lament> my coworker has notoriously bad spelling
19:10:22 <kwertii> pikhq: C and Java, mostly, and a few other minor languages
19:10:32 <lament> he's having to use javascript right now and really suffers
19:10:35 <pikhq> Weak static typing, then.
19:10:37 <lament> because he can't spell the variables consistently
19:10:48 <lament> which in javascript means hard-to-debug runtime errors
19:10:57 <pikhq> Ever heard of "type inference"?
19:11:19 <kwertii> pikhq: Java's strong-typed
19:11:36 <pikhq> kwertii: Not really.
19:11:40 <lament> whatever strong typing means, java is probably not it
19:11:52 <lament> given that you need to cast things to Object to do anything :)
19:12:13 <kwertii> Wikipedia says it is :p *watches as 5 people simultaneously edit the Java (programming language) article to change that*
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19:13:04 <ehird> kwertii: if you're criticising haskell's strong typing based on java, just... give up
19:13:12 <kwertii> ehird: I didn't say anything at all about Haskell
19:13:21 <ehird> this whole argument is about haskell vs lisp
19:13:41 <kwertii> ehird: er.. no, I haven't mentioned Haskell once, actually, since I know almost nothing about it.
19:13:56 <ehird> Well everyone else has been arguing about Haskell vs Lisp.
19:13:57 <lament> I know of one good argument for dynamic typing
19:14:14 <lament> it makes it easier to change the design of the program as you're writing it
19:14:55 <kwertii> and without it, you have to go through and change the 50 million casts everytime you make a design change
19:14:59 <ehird> haskell lets you do that too; you just have to change the way the program is structured to account for it
19:15:07 <ehird> seriously, NONE of us is arguing for java
19:15:19 <lament> kwertii: 50 million casts are not a typical feature of static typing.
19:15:27 <lament> they're a typical feature of Java.
19:15:37 <lament> that's why java sucks so bad
19:15:51 <lament> right, it's also why C sucks so bad
19:16:01 <uorygl> Once, when I tried to write something in Haskell, the typing got in the way.
19:16:02 <lament> C is particularly bad when it comes to the type system
19:16:19 <kwertii> what does strong typing without casting (like Haskell, presumably?) buy me as a coder?
19:16:32 <pikhq> A whole hell of a lot.
19:16:49 <lament> kwertii: the ability to reason about the program and its constituent parts better.
19:17:05 <lament> kwertii: for example, given a type signature of a function, you can often tell what the function does.
19:17:27 <lament> e.g. (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
19:17:37 <kwertii> lament: I've never really had a problem with that in a dynamic language.. and how does that differ from, say, Java or C on that point?
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19:18:03 <lament> good luck writing a function with signature (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] in C or Java
19:18:13 <ehird> you can do it in java, with generics... shudder
19:18:25 <lament> what's (a -> b) in Java?
19:18:25 <ehird> kwertii: this argument will probably only end if we either give up or we end up teaching you all of haskell
19:18:34 <kwertii> lament: please pardon my ignorance of Haskell syntax. what does that mean?
19:18:38 <ehird> the type system really is totally different in haskell
19:18:45 <lament> kwertii: this type signature is of the function map
19:18:46 <ehird> lament: Func<A,B> or Func<A><B> I forget
19:18:48 <lament> kwertii: do you know map?
19:18:53 <ehird> assuming Func is a genericed class with
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19:19:02 <kwertii> lament: I know the Lispish function map.. is that what you mean?
19:19:09 <ehird> and you do the ugly new Func(){{ thingy
19:19:14 <pikhq> The ability to write a parser as follows: toplevel = do {x <- sepEndBy expr space;eof;return x};expr = choice [comment,sexp,string "" >> return Null];comment = do {string ";;";skipMany (noneOf "\n");return Null};sexp = List <$> between (char '(') (char ')') (choice [token, sexp, comment] `sepBy` spaces);token = Node <$> many1 alphaNum
19:19:18 <ehird> it's possible, just awful
19:19:20 <ehird> and it's not a closure
19:19:26 <lament> kwertii: in lisp, map takes a function and a list of stuff, and applies a function to each element of the list
19:19:28 <ehird> you can only access final (immutable) vars from the upper scope
19:19:35 <ehird> map has been done in java
19:19:42 <ehird> http://functionaljava.org/
19:19:47 <ehird> but jesus is it ugly
19:19:55 <lament> kwertii: in haskell, map takes a function that converts values of type a to values of type b, and a list of values of type a
19:20:01 <lament> and produces a list of values of type b
19:20:19 <lament> that's what (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] says
19:20:46 <kwertii> lament: ok.. so does this buy me anything over Java, other than syntactic sugar?
19:20:48 <lament> the compiler ensures that there won't be type errors as you apply it.
19:21:07 <lament> kwertii: there's no sane map in Java, you'd need a for loop or something
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19:21:09 <ehird> kwertii: you cannot express that function in java
19:21:18 <ehird> you can do it if you let (a -> b) be a function
19:21:20 <pikhq> The compiler ensures that there won't be any other affects of the function.
19:21:20 <ehird> but it's a closure
19:21:27 <ehird> it is, literally, impossible in Java
19:21:49 <pikhq> (a function with other effects would be: (a -> b) -> [a] -> IO [b])
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19:22:16 <ehird> you know what would be fun?
19:22:26 <ehird> a program that you give a type signature, and it tries to find out if it's doing something evil
19:22:32 <ehird> (a -> IO b) -> [a] -> [b]
19:22:47 <kwertii> other than closing over variable bindings, you can write a Java fn that takes, say, a typed array and an anonymous method and applies it to produce an array of a guaranteed return type.. can't you?
19:23:04 <ehird> kwertii: technically, yes, with five pages of code
19:23:16 <lament> kwertii: right, you can, but there's a reason nobody does it
19:23:18 <ehird> haskell has other tricks up its sleeve, though, and not just convenience-related ones
19:23:35 <lament> kwertii: it's very much going against the grain of the language
19:23:36 <pikhq> kwertii: Can you also ensure that there the function does nothing else, by merit of seeing nothing other than the type signature?
19:23:53 <ehird> for instance, typeclasses handle both java's generics AND a good portion of problems usually solved with OOP
19:23:59 <ehird> oh, and Java interfaces too
19:24:01 <kwertii> well yea, I'm not arguing that Java doesn't suck, I'm just trying to learn about Haskell.
19:24:15 <lament> kwertii: what pikhq said is a big selling point
19:24:22 <kwertii> pikhq: so Haskell forces you to declare whether there are side effects?
19:24:32 <ehird> it does, but it's not a language feature
19:24:38 <ehird> everything with side effects is of type IO a
19:25:14 <lament> kwertii: it not only forces you to declare it, but it verifies it during type-checking
19:25:22 <ehird> addFromInput :: Integer -> IO Integer
19:25:22 <ehird> addFromInput n = do m <- imaginaryFunctionThatReadsAndParsesAnInteger
19:25:34 <lament> kwertii: or rather, it doesn't force you to declare it, it just verifies it :)
19:25:35 <ehird> or more succintly, addFromInput n = imaginaryFunctionThatReadsAndParsesAnInteger >>= (n+)
19:25:46 <ehird> kwertii: the important thing to realise is that "IO a" isn't just a silly tag applied to a
19:25:57 <ehird> in fact, IO a doesn't mean "a, but with some side-effects"
19:25:58 <lament> kwertii: in haskell you don't usually have to declare types at all, because the compiler figures them out itself
19:26:17 <ehird> it means "some IO thingies that, when run on a side-effecting computer, produces a value of type a"
19:26:19 <lament> kwertii: but a function with side effects and a function without side effects have different types, so you can't accidentally interchange them
19:26:30 <ehird> in haskell, the language is 100% pure, no IO
19:26:36 <ehird> what happens is that the haskell runtime system calls main()
19:26:54 <ehird> but think of it as main(), it's actually just a lazily-evaluated value, not a function of no arguments; they're equivalent in a lazy language
19:26:58 <pikhq> It then evaluates the result of main.
19:27:00 <ehird> then, it traverses the tree of IO computation
19:27:10 <ehird> doing each IO operation and feeding the result back in to the rest
19:27:29 <ehird> this runs the program bit by bit doing IO as it goes instead of the whole thing at once because haskell is lazily evaluated; only runs computations that it absolutely needs to right now
19:27:42 <ehird> which is why [1..] works; it's the same as 1:(1:(1:...
19:27:53 <ehird> but it looks like <thunk> to haskell, which if you examine the head becomes 1:<thunk>
19:28:01 <ehird> if you examine the head of the tail it becomes 1:(1:<thunk>)
19:28:28 <lament> numbers mixed with frowny faces
19:28:30 <pikhq> Yeah, 1:(1:(1:... is fix (1:)
19:28:32 <ehird> and, finally, IO is actually a monad; which have nothing to do with side-effects at all, despite some mistaken conceptions
19:28:50 <ehird> things like the "do a; b; c" stuff and the >>= functions have nothing to do with i/o
19:28:51 <lament> ehird: i'm pretty sure you lost kwertii already
19:29:01 <ehird> in fact, even lists are a monad; the point is, you don't have to understand what a monad is
19:29:15 <ehird> I'm just trying to demonstrate that in haskell, side-effects aren't bolted on
19:29:20 <ehird> they arise from other parts of the system
19:29:24 <kwertii> lament: I don't get the details, but it's interesting that the program is structured around the operations necessary to do IO
19:29:34 <ehird> (you don't have to understand the parts to do IO in haskell, though, it's easy)
19:29:40 <lament> ehird: i'm pretty sure that side effects ARE bolted on :)
19:29:51 <ehird> well everything is bolted on if you use a silly definition
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19:30:07 <pikhq> lament: No, side effects aren't even part of the language. :P
19:30:12 <ehird> the point is that without lazy evaluation, and monads, it'd be more awkward; it's a happy coincidence that monads map to IO, but actually that just reveals the inner power and usefulness of monads
19:30:17 <lament> this "something" isn't haskell
19:30:18 <ehird> and how useful lazy evaluation is
19:30:20 <lament> it's some bolted-on bit
19:30:27 <ehird> lament: well, yes, but that's not the sense I meant
19:30:31 <ehird> I mean that "IO" fits into the language
19:30:31 <kwertii> ehh, Lisp can do that. *joke*
19:30:45 <lament> kwertii: right, it can't
19:31:13 <lament> kwertii: blah, just learn haskell already :P
19:31:23 <kwertii> there are monad libraries in Lisp.. If you wanted to, you could write macros that would force programs to be structured like that.. *ducks*
19:31:34 <lament> kwertii: everybody's favourite motivating examples:
19:32:09 <lament> factorial :: Integer -> Integer
19:32:16 <lament> factorial n = product [1..n]
19:32:46 <ehird> isprime n = not . any (\p -> mod n p == 0) . takeWhile (\p -> p^2 <= n) $ primelist
19:32:46 <ehird> primelist = 2 : [p | p <- [3,5..], isprime p]
19:32:46 <ehird> kwertii: this program gives a function, isprime, which tells you whether an integer is prime, and a list, primelist, which is an infinite-length list of every prime. isprime looks at primelist to find primes, and primelist asks isprime to add new primes to the list
19:32:53 <lament> fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)
19:32:53 <ehird> LAZY EVALUATION IN YOUR FACE
19:33:02 <ehird> lament's is the same general idea, but with less head-binding
19:33:42 <kwertii> Clojure has lazy evaluation
19:34:19 <kwertii> and there are lazy eval libraries for Common Lisp...
19:34:48 <ehird> in haskell, everything is lazy
19:34:53 <ehird> lament: well it has promises which are ... half-similar
19:34:56 <kwertii> then I'm not getting something. what does Haskell do that Scheme or Clojure don't?
19:34:57 <lament> kwertii: give me an infinite list in Scheme
19:35:06 <ehird> kwertii: in haskell, every single construct is lazy
19:35:13 <ehird> the implicitness makes it *far* more expressive
19:35:37 <lament> kwertii: for example, the list of natural numbers in Haskell is [1..]. You can perform any list operation on it.
19:35:43 <lament> kwertii: What's the Scheme equivalent?
19:35:46 <kwertii> lament: streams are infinite lists in Scheme
19:35:48 <lament> or Common Lisp or whatever
19:35:54 <ehird> kwertii: exactly, they're different things
19:35:56 <ehird> that's the whole point
19:36:03 <kwertii> I'm not good at Scheme. but infinite lists are baked into Clojure
19:36:11 <lament> kwertii: exactly, they aren't lists, and you can't use list operations on them
19:36:24 <kwertii> lament: http://www.cs.aau.dk/~normark/prog3-03/html/notes/eval-order_themes-delay-stream-section.html#eval-order_streams_title_1
19:37:03 <pikhq> kwertii: Write the following: fibs = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)
19:37:10 <kwertii> (cycle [1 2 3]) ;; infinite list of 1 2 3 1 2 3. .....
19:37:12 <ehird> pikhq: he'll just use streams and a mass of (delay)s
19:37:36 <ehird> what astonishes me is that kwertii is proving that he can't actually consider any language might be superior to lisp, because his brain just shows that it can be done in lisp
19:37:39 <kwertii> pikhq: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/Lazy_Fibonacci
19:37:55 <kwertii> ehird: -10 points, ad hominem
19:38:03 <ehird> wasn't submitting it as an argument
19:38:08 <ehird> was merely making an observation
19:38:22 <lament> (defn fib ([] (concat [0 1] (fib 0 1))) ([a b] (lazy-cons (+ a b) (fib b (+ a b)))))
19:38:29 <kwertii> I'm not arguing for superiority at all. Just trying to wrap my head around what Haskell can do that Lisp can't. As I said, I know almost nothing about Haskell
19:38:35 <lament> looks like a direct equivalent of the Haskell definition
19:38:36 <pikhq> lament: ... Eeeeew.
19:38:43 <ehird> no language can do anything that lisp can't, at all
19:38:46 <lament> kwertii: so in haskell, it's the same thing, but statically typed
19:38:48 <ehird> well apart from super-tc languages
19:38:59 <lament> kwertii: so you know that it's a list of integers, and you know that no side effects are performed while evaluating it
19:39:04 <ehird> except clojure isn't very lispy
19:39:07 <lament> kwertii: without seeing the code
19:39:08 * pikhq notes that "fibs" isn't a function.
19:39:09 <ehird> and in fact, it takes all these things from haskell
19:39:12 <Sgeo> ehird, low level register setting?
19:39:17 <ehird> "I don't need Haskell for that, this language that took it from Haskell has it!"
19:39:17 <pikhq> It is literally just a list.
19:39:35 <kwertii> I readily admit it's cool that you can instantly know whether a fn has side effects, and I like the idea of computing a program as a sequence of functions necessary to produce the desired IO.
19:40:16 <Sgeo> Or other.. low level C trickery?
19:40:26 * Sgeo waves his hand around a bit
19:40:48 <ehird> kwertii: and yes you can do all this stuff in other languages, but in haskell it's the main way of working
19:41:05 <kwertii> so.. correct me if I'm wrong.... Haskell is essentially a strongly statically typed version of Clojure? Is that a good way of looking at it?
19:41:11 <ehird> and the combination of all of them being part of the language leads to code that's more concise, and Haskellers find more readable, for a lot of tasks, practical and theoretical
19:41:22 <lament> kwertii: with better syntax, yes
19:41:23 <ehird> and indeed the type system does eliminate a lot of bugs
19:41:29 <ehird> kwertii: clojure isn't all lazy
19:41:40 <kwertii> I love Lisp syntax, so we'll leave syntax aside :)
19:41:46 <ehird> haskell's ubiquitous laziness is really fundamental
19:41:55 <ehird> kwertii: you could use Liskell.
19:41:58 <ehird> NOT THAT YOU'D WANT TO :p
19:42:06 <ehird> don't, it's crappy
19:42:15 <lament> better just use clojure then
19:42:16 <ehird> they just added parentheses and a different macro system to Haskell
19:42:20 <ehird> the former isn't really all that lispy
19:42:26 <ehird> the latter is worse than Template Haskell
19:42:26 <kwertii> so, a functional language similar to Clojure but with pervasive laziness and strong static typing
19:42:34 <ehird> kwertii: and monads.
19:42:41 <ehird> specifically, monadic IO is the language feature
19:42:45 <pikhq> main = getContents >>= foo x >= putStr -- There, a program that filters stdin through foo x and outputs stdout. Lazily.
19:42:51 <kwertii> or can have them, more specifically. lots of libs for that
19:42:53 <lament> kwertii: the typing is not just strong and static
19:42:55 <ehird> pikhq: >>= not >= :P
19:43:01 <ehird> kwertii: lisp doesn't use monadic io
19:43:06 <lament> kwertii: it's very expressive, or tries to be
19:43:14 <kwertii> can you write macros in Haskell?
19:43:16 <ehird> i think it is lament probably disagrees :P
19:43:19 <ehird> kwertii: yes, with template haskell
19:43:27 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_Haskell
19:43:31 <ehird> As of version 6.10, Template Haskell provides support for user-defined quasi-quoters, which allows users to write parsers which can generate Haskell code from an arbitrary syntax. This syntax is also enforced at compile time. For example, using a custom quasi-quoter for regular expressions could look like this:
19:43:32 <ehird> digitsFollowedByLetters = [$re| \d+ \s+ |]
19:43:48 <ehird> kwertii: it's a bit of a pain to write monads, and sure the syntax for using them isn't the most pretty, but the thiing is
19:43:52 <lament> kwertii: there's a kind of a goal to make the type checker do as much work as possible
19:43:56 <ehird> because of haskell's pervasive laziness and monadic IO
19:44:03 <ehird> a lot of things that would be macros in lisp... are functions in haskeell
19:44:12 <ehird> and what can be simpler than writing a function?
19:44:15 <lament> kwertii: so many of "design patterns" elsewhere end up being types
19:44:24 <lament> kwertii: and their common features are abstracted
19:44:26 <ehird> kwertii: oh, and if Java is your benchmark, note that you don't have to declare types in haskell
19:44:39 <lament> kwertii: (monads are one such pattern)
19:44:55 <ehird> you can do (let a = 3 in a+4) and it all works, you can even have (do c <- getChar; print (ord c)) (ord = unicode codepoint number of character)
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19:45:19 <ehird> people annotate the types of their top-level definitions, though (functions and other things)
19:45:23 <ehird> because it's basically documentation
19:45:37 <ehird> if you know a function's name as a type, you're like 90% of the way there to using it properly
19:45:49 <bsmntbombdood> so, anyone have any ideas on how to create a bittorrent like protocol that is more anonymous?
19:46:06 <ehird> also, if you declare the type, of course it means if your function breaks the type (and thus compatibility) it complains
19:46:21 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: maybe have the swarm act as a Tor-style network
19:46:29 <ehird> except without exit nodes
19:46:33 <kwertii> thanks for the info, guys, I am adding Haskell to the list of ∫things to look into.
19:46:38 <ehird> that way, you can have a list of everyone participating in the torrent
19:46:41 <ehird> but not who did what
19:46:57 <lament> kwertii: http://www.lisperati.com/landoflisp/
19:47:02 <ehird> lament: oh god, not that comic :P
19:47:16 <ehird> might as well be called Land of Uninformed Haskell Bashing (I know the author knows Haskell)
19:47:29 <ehird> (but he wildly misrepresents it in that comic; I wouldn't mind if people didn't use it in substitute of an argument quite often)
19:47:35 <lament> ehird: i can't believe how retarded you are
19:47:43 <ehird> kwertii: if you do decide on haskell, btw, Real World Haskell is the best place to start.
19:48:07 <kwertii> ehird: thanks, I'll take a look
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19:48:11 <ehird> if your mind is tuned somewhere in the vicinity of tolerance of _why's style, http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ is in that area too
19:48:20 <ehird> it only covers the basics, but beyond that real world haskell works
19:48:35 <ehird> well hmm since I last checked it expanded
19:48:39 <ehird> covers a bit more than the basics then
19:48:45 <ehird> still no monads though :-D
19:49:20 <ehird> (real world haskell is free online here http://book.realworldhaskell.org/)
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19:54:51 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah, I can't recommend LYAH enough. It doesn't cover the whole language, but what it covers it covers well.
19:55:07 <ehird> pikhq: djinn doesn't know lists does it?
19:55:17 <Deewiant> ehird: djinn can't do recursive types.
19:55:36 <pikhq> djinn isn't all that smart.
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19:56:02 <ehird> kwertii: anyway, here's a haskell party trick
19:56:07 <ehird> /query lambdabot and try these two lilnes
19:56:11 <ehird> @djinn (a -> b) -> b -> Maybe a -> b
19:56:19 <ehird> @djinn (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c
19:56:33 <ehird> given f, a function taking a and returning b, and x, a default value
19:56:42 <ehird> plus m, which is either Just (something of type a) or Nothing,
19:56:56 <ehird> either return (f (the thing in the Just)) or x
19:57:10 <ehird> i.e., it's "if there's a value in here, pass it through this function; otherwise, use this default"
19:57:25 <ehird> the latter one takes a function taking two arguments, and returns one that takes two arguments, but flipped
19:57:31 <ehird> i.e. f(a,b) = g(b,a)
19:57:46 <ehird> tl;dr @djinn takes a type, and works out a function for you
19:57:56 <anmaster_l> ehird, copying 500 MB at 590 kb/s is irritating
19:57:59 <ehird> (well, not any old type, but meh)
19:58:27 <lament> kwertii: summarizing ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry-Howard_Isomorphism
19:58:38 <lament> kwertii: if that doesn't get you excited about static types, nothing will :)
19:58:45 <ehird> but the point is that haskell types *are* that
19:59:06 <ehird> and it works for types of useful, concrete functions ;-)
19:59:13 <ehird> admittedly, not that many, and it's not the most useful application of the isomorphism
19:59:16 <ehird> but it sure is neat
20:00:45 <kwertii> ehird: where do you get x in those function definitions?
20:01:00 <ehird> kwertii: if you use a name for a type, it doesn't mean that's the name for a variable
20:01:11 <ehird> f :: a -> a -> Integer
20:01:23 <ehird> both the arguments must be of the same type
20:01:27 <ehird> but what type it is can be any
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20:01:45 <ehird> basically, a lowercase name as a type means "any type", but if you use it twice it's the same type
20:01:58 <kwertii> ok, I'm confused due to my lack of knowledge of Haskell syntax. You wrote "@djinn (a -> b) -> b -> Maybe a -> b" and then started talking about x. I see no x
20:02:10 <ehird> ah, I was just giving names to the arguments
20:02:12 <lament> kwertii: the curry-howard isomorphism is a good example of an idea that's only possible when types are explicit
20:02:16 <ehird> let me restate it more verbosely
20:02:27 <lament> kwertii: though of course it doesn't have much to do with programming
20:02:50 <kwertii> lament: funny, I was just reading about automated theorem proving the other day. a very cool idea.
20:03:00 <ehird> The function takes values of the types
20:03:01 <ehird> (a -> b) — "transformer". A function taking a value of type a, and returning a value of type b.
20:03:01 <ehird> Maybe a — "container".
20:03:01 <ehird> and returns a value of type b.
20:03:05 <lament> but it partly explains why there's a strong mathy flavour in the haskell community
20:03:08 <ehird> data Maybe a = Just a | Nothing
20:03:19 <ehird> i.e., a value of type (Maybe a) is of the form of either
20:03:22 <ehird> Just (a value of type a)
20:03:25 <lament> kwertii: right, @djinn is an automatic theorem prover
20:03:27 <Sgeo> This reminds me of a pun..
20:03:35 <ehird> if "container" is a Just
20:03:40 <lament> kwertii: a very simple one admittedly, but the cool part is that it works on haskell types
20:03:48 <ehird> take the value from inside "container", and pass it to "transformer"; return the result.
20:03:53 <ehird> Otherwise, return "default".
20:04:03 <ehird> think of (Maybe a) as like this java
20:04:03 <kwertii> ehird: please define "Maybe" and "Just" in this context
20:04:10 <ehird> MyType foo = null;
20:04:14 <ehird> MyType bar = new MyType();
20:04:21 <ehird> kwertii: in haskell this would be expressed as
20:04:26 <ehird> foo :: Maybe MyType
20:04:33 <ehird> bar :: Maybe MyType
20:04:38 <ehird> bar = Just (makeMyType)
20:04:50 <ehird> kwertii: Just and Nothing are just constructors of Maybe
20:05:02 <kwertii> so "Maybe x" is either "x or nil" and "Just x" is "x, but not nil"?
20:05:13 <ehird> ah, I see how you are confused
20:05:17 <ehird> no, (Maybe a) is a type
20:05:20 <ehird> (Just x) is a value
20:05:24 <ehird> of type (Maybe (type of x))
20:05:47 <ehird> (obviously you can only write one or the other when the syntax expects a type or a value)
20:06:37 <kwertii> Just x instantiates a new x?
20:06:55 <ehird> lament: help, I'm in a hole I dug and can't climb out
20:07:01 <AnMaster> ehird, a question: know any open source photo manager or such. For doing stuff like grouping raw photos on exposure time and getting an overview of them
20:07:03 <Deewiant> It takes x and wraps Just around it.
20:07:04 <kwertii> no worries, I'll go read a Haskell book
20:07:06 <ehird> kwertii: I tell you what, forget that @djinn invocation
20:07:08 <AnMaster> the one in ubuntu is laughably bad
20:07:17 <ehird> if you don't understand it, focus on the other one, which just returns a function with the argument places swapped :P
20:07:28 <ehird> kwertii: yep. i suggest http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ to start with then going onto real world haskell, as i said
20:07:42 <ehird> learnyouahaskell gets down to the practical stuff very fast, so you should grok Maybe soon enough if you read it
20:07:55 <ehird> and it is written by a better teacher than I...
20:08:09 <ehird> AnMaster: write a program photoq(1)
20:08:18 <ehird> photoq exposure foo.jpg bar.jpg
20:08:23 <Sgeo> If the type of x is y, then Just x has a type of Maybe y
20:08:25 <ehird> then use the shell :-)
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20:08:55 <ehird> $ photoq size foo.jpg bar.jpg
20:09:03 <ehird> $ pq size foo.jpg bar.jpg
20:09:08 <ehird> foo.jpg: 1600x1200
20:09:29 * ehird , master of theoretically pure solutions!
20:09:36 <ehird> hmm actually I'd omit the trailing colon on the filenames
20:09:53 <ehird> you'd not really want to parse that, just call pq multiple times in a loop
20:10:24 <ehird> AnMaster: by overview do you mean thumbnails?
20:10:31 <ehird> if so nautilus shows them :P
20:10:51 <ehird> and you can query information about a group of photos identified by their thumbnails by selecting them and dragging them to a terminal after "pq theproperty "!
20:15:39 <ehird> AnMaster summarily ignores me!
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20:18:04 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry I had to leave for a few seconds
20:18:08 <ehird> AnMaster: i went all unix elitist on you
20:18:10 <AnMaster> ehird, due to not feeling weel at all
20:18:18 <ehird> but at the end started thinking it was pretty cool
20:19:02 <ehird> okay, tell me what i was referencing
20:19:12 <AnMaster> ehird, no I wasn't continuing it.
20:19:22 <ehird> I was referencing "pearls before swine"
20:19:26 <AnMaster> I was already typing that when you said pearl flu
20:19:34 <AnMaster> ehird, we have that idiom in Swedish too
20:20:12 <AnMaster> literally: throw pearls in front of the swines
20:20:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> photoq exposure foo.jpg bar.jpg
20:20:53 <ehird> well make pq a wrapper around exiftool
20:20:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I just wanted to do something else
20:21:02 <ehird> then use my nautilus for thumbnails + drag and drop to terminal :P
20:21:27 <ehird> well i don't know if that works in nautilus i think it doees
20:21:30 <ehird> does in os x anyway
20:22:06 <Sgeo> It wooshed over my head
20:22:10 <Sgeo> And is still wooshing
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20:22:34 <ehird> pearls before swine
20:22:46 <Sgeo> I don't know what "pearls before swine" is supposed to mean
20:22:56 <ehird> irrelevant to the pun
20:23:16 <ehird> "Pearls before swine refers to a quotation from the discourse on holiness, a section of Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount, implying that things should not be put in front of people who don't appreciate their value."
20:23:24 <ehird> more like INTERCOURSE ON HOLINESS
20:23:27 <AnMaster> ehird, it is for i in *.MRW; do exp=$(exiftool "$i" | awk '/Exposure TimeExposure Tim/ {print $NF}'); mv "$i" "${i//.MRW/THM}" "${exp/\//_}"
20:23:50 <ehird> AnMaster: pfft, that only works for exposure!
20:24:55 <AnMaster> ehird, also I need to sort it by motive this time
20:25:00 <AnMaster> since they are not all in the same direction
20:25:04 <ehird> your mom is a motive
20:26:10 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you can the thing a picture depicts
20:26:23 <ehird> motiv sounds like motif
20:26:35 <ehird> "what do you can the"
20:26:43 <ehird> my language parser gave up there
20:26:49 <ehird> and just parsed the rest of the sentence
20:26:59 <ehird> subject, probably— uh, do cameras give that information?
20:27:03 <ehird> I didn't know they could identify shapes.
20:27:22 <ehird> EXIF is extensible, right?
20:27:31 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't change that my camera doesn't do it
20:27:38 <ehird> and neither can a photo manager
20:27:44 <ehird> you're going to have to enter the subjects yourself
20:27:46 <AnMaster> where the vendor can put whatever it wants
20:27:52 <ehird> so! make a field Subject
20:27:55 <ehird> and put the subject in
20:27:59 <ehird> then do $ pq subject ...
20:28:12 <AnMaster> ehird, actually my camera allows you to make short sound annotations
20:28:25 <ehird> Combine with speech recognition!
20:28:41 <ehird> *goes on computer*
20:28:48 <ehird> Recognition failed.
20:28:56 <AnMaster> ehird, actually here it was "section 1 of the panorama" "section 2 of the panorama"
20:28:57 <ehird> Recognition succeeded.
20:29:07 <ehird> Erm, that last line is confusing.
20:29:17 <ehird> Eh, that's still confusing.
20:29:28 <ehird> The point is that the computer recognises "fuck" but not "cat". Now laugh, fool.
20:29:56 <ehird> Hot cat-on-cat(1) action.
20:30:01 <ehird> "Meeeow." "Meeeow."
20:30:17 <ehird> "You're so like me." "You're so like me."
20:33:46 <AnMaster> ehird, idea: make a program that can construct a partial 3D image given two photos from two different locations
20:34:03 <ehird> that's called red and blue glasses
20:34:15 <AnMaster> ehird, well no it isn't. I want a 3D model I can load into blender
20:34:24 <ehird> that would be unlikely to work very well :P
20:34:26 <AnMaster> it is called "cheap-skate (sp?) 3D scanner"
20:34:59 <Sgeo> I remember using a program that could do something like that, a long time ago
20:35:28 <ehird> AnMaster: it'd fail horribly e.g. on spheres
20:36:02 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes. You could only get an image covering a bit more than 180 degrees
20:36:05 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I don't remember much, except you had to help it, I think by specifying points on both images that are supposed to match up
20:36:13 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes it would be hard to detect a sphere
20:36:36 <AnMaster> I would expect to have to do that too
20:37:12 <AnMaster> ehird, well that or give it the distance between the camera positions
20:37:19 <AnMaster> you could automate point finding
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20:37:30 <AnMaster> there are already tools to do so
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20:37:54 <AnMaster> modify the algorithms a bit maybe to account for the now wanted parallax
20:38:03 <AnMaster> and you have a point finding algorithm
20:39:01 * ehird decides to play around with debian sid
20:40:20 * AnMaster ponders saying "tried it years ago" but decides not to
20:40:31 <ehird> Of course I've used it before.
20:40:37 <ehird> I just feel like some Debian tinkering.
20:40:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes. I just said I decided not to say it
20:41:05 <ehird> Anyway, clearly the metric is how young you are when you first used it.
20:41:06 <AnMaster> (yes I'm aware of the issue in that sentence, thank you very much)
20:41:13 <ehird> AnMaster: no issue
20:41:29 <ehird> that's like doing drugs when you're 4
20:41:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I tried red hat when I was 11
20:41:36 <ehird> YOU HAVE NO CONCERN FOR YOUR OWN HEALTH
20:41:47 <ehird> red hat is like, uh, something bad
20:41:51 <AnMaster> came on a cd with some computer magazine
20:41:56 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. But I didn't know that back then
20:42:09 <AnMaster> tried debian a bit later. sid too iirc
20:42:10 <ehird> thankfully nobody uses rpm these days
20:42:17 <ehird> (in the same way that nobody uses dpkg)
20:42:54 <AnMaster> <ehird> that's like doing drugs when you're 4
20:43:00 <pikhq> First distro I used was Slackware...
20:43:02 <ehird> using sid at such an early age
20:43:08 <ehird> 14 IS LIKE BEING 18 OKAY
20:43:10 <AnMaster> it would be just as bad for you
20:43:15 <AnMaster> ehird, but you said you used it before!
20:43:17 <ehird> which is when hard drugs become legal in Falsebekiztan
20:43:33 <ehird> YOUR WORDS BOUNCE OFF ME THEY DO NOT HURT
20:43:56 <AnMaster> ehird, this reminds me of a Marty Feldman (sp?) sketch
20:44:10 <ehird> now using gentoo when you're 4, is like doing heroin before you're even conceived
20:45:06 <AnMaster> ehird, but I only started with gentoo when I was maybe 16 or so
20:45:19 <AnMaster> I remember it was in late 2004 anyway
20:46:05 -!- adam_d_ has joined.
20:46:13 <ehird> ooh, linode just became an appealing vps provider
20:46:18 -!- asiekierka has quit (Connection timed out).
20:46:20 <ehird> they have a facility in london
20:46:22 <AnMaster> why is my mouse suddenly slippery
20:46:26 <ehird> and it's (a) fast, (b) low-latency
20:46:45 <ehird> now if only their rates weren't kinda shitty
20:47:36 <ehird> Linode 19.95 $: 360 MiB of RAM, 16 G(i?)B of storage, 200 G(i?)B transfer
20:47:36 <ehird> prgmr 20 $: 1024 MiB of RAM, 24 GiB of storage, 160 GiB transfer
20:48:16 <ehird> on the other hand, their performance is nice: http://journal.uggedal.com/vps-performance-comparison
20:49:19 <ehird> inexplicably 32-bit is faster than 64-bit for smaller linode nodes, apparently
20:49:59 <ehird> irrelevant since he ran actual benchmarks, not single tasks
20:50:10 <ehird> http://journal.uggedal.com/vps-performance-comparison
20:50:15 <ehird> linode guys said the same
20:50:30 <ehird> "x86 performs better on smaller nodes (360) our experience."
20:50:33 <ehird> not said by a linode guy
20:50:46 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes it could be that more fits into ram there
20:50:51 <AnMaster> if it doesn't have a lot of ram
20:50:55 <ehird> benchmarks don't tend to be huge
20:51:01 <ehird> AnMaster: 360 MiB of RAM running linux?
20:51:12 <ehird> that can surely fit an entire benchmark, it's not like it's a 3d rendering test or anything
20:51:21 <ehird> anyway, he ran several benchmarks
20:51:24 <ehird> most of which were not ram-intensive
20:51:35 <AnMaster> ehird, okay I saw postgresql there. Which would be cache-dependant in part
20:52:00 <ehird> hmm, linode lets you install your own distro instead of just a predefined list
20:52:05 <ehird> which was a nice thing about prgmr
20:52:06 <AnMaster> ehird, what about more fitting into cpu cache?
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20:52:19 <ehird> AnMaster: look how drastic the differences are, though
20:52:31 <ehird> in most of the benchmarks, i686 blasts away x86_64 on linode
20:52:42 <AnMaster> "Django test suite on in-memory SQLite" x86_64 wins?
20:53:15 <ehird> "Microsoft loses patent appeal; Word and Office to be barred from sale starting January 11"
20:53:18 <AnMaster> anyway both are way over any other host
20:53:19 <ehird> And nothing of value was lost.
20:53:30 <ehird> AnMaster: which is better
20:53:51 <ehird> depends on the benchmark, confusingly :P
20:54:00 <ehird> but more importantly, linode is also among the most predictable
20:54:14 <ehird> amazon, prgmr and amazon are about as stable as each other, performance-wise
20:54:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> "Microsoft loses patent appeal; Word and Office to be barred from sale starting January 11" <-- long live that judge?
20:54:33 <ehird> 1. amazon and prgmr 2. linode 3. rackspace
20:54:43 <ehird> 4. slicehost (really really bad last place)
20:54:55 <AnMaster> ehird, are those patents important?
20:55:13 <ehird> they're shitty patents
20:55:14 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? at what level? as in can't open saved files without it?
20:55:16 <ehird> shouldn't have been granted
20:55:22 <ehird> AnMaster: as in fundamental to the .docx format
20:55:25 <AnMaster> or as in "can't use simne gui thingy"
20:55:41 <AnMaster> ehird, what does the patent patent?
20:55:49 <ehird> AnMaster: something like "using XML to do out-of-band formatting"
20:56:01 <ehird> format first N characters: bold and big
20:56:09 <ehird> format N to N+foo: italic
20:56:35 <AnMaster> ehird, using out of band formatting like that *is* shitty
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20:56:47 <ehird> <doc><txt>HiYo</txt><bold from="0" to="2"/><italic from="2" to="4"/></doc>
20:57:00 <AnMaster> ehird, that is a shitty way to specify it
20:57:07 <ehird> the patent is too general; there was prior art; it shouldn't have been granted; software patents are abhorrent; patents are abhorrent; and the judge should have invalidated the patent
20:57:15 <ehird> so it's a shitty result, but it still amuses me
20:57:31 <ehird> AnMaster: there's a difference beyond representation of the same data I think, I forget what though
20:57:39 <ehird> that was just from memory
20:57:52 <AnMaster> anyway yeah it was wrong but yeah it amuses me
20:58:23 <AnMaster> ehird, will they pay for using the patent do you think?
20:58:47 <AnMaster> ehird, they will appeal again?
20:59:21 -!- FireFly has joined.
20:59:21 <ehird> They'll take the prosecution into a ditch at midnight, stab them repeatedly, cut their eyes out, slit their throat, rape them until they're unconscious, and tell them to drop it or they'll kill them. So the prosecution drops it, and Microsoft kills them anyway.
20:59:54 <AnMaster> well yes similar maybe. but with suits
21:00:21 <ehird> Nah, out-of-court.
21:00:27 <ehird> Microsoft is a psycopath.
21:00:49 <ehird> If that fails they'll just force the price down to peanuts.
21:01:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I almost hope the other company will refuses such things
21:01:13 <ehird> [["we have been preparing for this possibility since the District Court issued its injunction in August 2009 and have put the wheels in motion to remove this little-used feature from these products. Therefore, we expect to have copies of Microsoft Word 2007 and Office 2007, with this feature removed, available for U.S. sale and distribution by the injunction date."]]
21:01:18 <ehird> Microsoft you are full of shit.
21:01:22 <ehird> AnMaster: then they will die.
21:01:26 <ehird> and microsoft will go ahead
21:01:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what about that person who owns it
21:01:59 -!- osaunders has quit ("Bye").
21:02:02 <AnMaster> ehird, they could move it to the inventor in question?
21:02:10 <ehird> The patent is granted to the company.
21:02:11 <AnMaster> well inventor within quotes here
21:02:21 <AnMaster> ehird, what happens if the company dies?
21:02:29 <ehird> What happens if the inventor dies?
21:02:32 <ehird> I suppose the patent expires.
21:02:47 <ehird> Patents are shit anyway.
21:03:01 <AnMaster> but it would be funny to use it to take down microsoft
21:03:24 <ehird> You can't really defeat such a large corporation in today's corporatist society.
21:03:39 <AnMaster> ehird, another large company could?
21:03:50 <ehird> That would be... bloody.
21:03:53 <AnMaster> say, IBM, HP, Dell, Intel combined
21:04:07 <ehird> That would be suicidal for all those companies.
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21:04:19 <AnMaster> ehird, throw in maybe 3-4 more large companies?
21:04:22 <ehird> Intel relies on Windows to make moneey.
21:04:29 <ehird> So do Dell and HP.
21:04:39 <ehird> IBM would be damaged, but probably not killed.
21:04:41 <AnMaster> ehird, what if microsoft *did* go down. what would happen instead
21:04:58 <ehird> I don't think society would ever let that happen.
21:05:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well suppose it *does*.
21:05:25 <ehird> Probably Apple and Ubuntu would launch the biggest marketing campaigns they possibly could because fuck it, they have the rest of eternity to profit from the results.
21:06:16 <AnMaster> ehird, still, I suppose what could happen would be for MS to loose market share over a extended period of time
21:06:27 <AnMaster> until it is less than 40 % or so
21:06:35 <ehird> That would just be Microsoft fading.
21:06:41 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:06:42 <ehird> That is already happening at a sub-glacial pace.
21:06:48 <ehird> The outcome is boring and predictable.
21:06:54 <ehird> But Microsoft dying in one go?
21:06:55 <AnMaster> ehird, and what is the outcome?
21:06:58 <ehird> The world collapses. No exaggeration.
21:07:03 <AnMaster> that apple and linux replaces them?
21:07:05 <ehird> Every-fucking-thing in the world relies on Windows.
21:07:14 <ehird> Society would probably collapse until it's resolved.
21:07:17 <AnMaster> finally the year of the linux desktop?
21:07:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Or a new competitor.
21:07:38 <AnMaster> (which has been predicted for so long)
21:07:54 <ehird> I bet some new competitor will emerge, probably based on Linux or something, but replacing X11 and all that, and with a Windows-style frontend.
21:07:59 <ehird> Drive letters and all that.
21:08:16 <ehird> Linux being chosen only because it's a base that's stable and easy to build upon.
21:08:26 <ehird> AnMaster: The masses require familiarity.
21:08:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I also think apple would grow by a lot. Not taking a majority but at least 10-20% more or so
21:09:17 <ehird> I dunno man, most people won't pay that much for a computer.
21:09:18 <AnMaster> ehird, also windows only needs one drive letter: c:
21:09:25 <AnMaster> you can mount other stuff in directories
21:09:35 <AnMaster> ehird, sure you can't mount those in directories ?
21:09:44 <ehird> AnMaster: The public knows filesystems as purely physical.
21:09:48 <ehird> Folders and files are literarl.
21:09:54 <ehird> *files are literal
21:09:58 <ehird> They don't even use shortcuts, themself.
21:10:04 <AnMaster> ehird, well on macs they show up on the desktop, no?
21:10:07 <ehird> Have you ever seen a Windows user create a shortcut?
21:10:17 <ehird> AnMaster: People are confused by Macs.
21:10:22 <ehird> They sit at one and have no idea how to do anything.
21:10:22 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. My dad. created one for the floppy way way back
21:10:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Okay, but you get my point.
21:10:38 <AnMaster> ehird, he isn't a computer literate really. He knows two programs: word and SPSS
21:10:44 <AnMaster> the latter is some statistical thingy
21:11:06 <ehird> "A drive is a thing, either the computer (C: to you and I), a camera, or a CD-ROM."
21:11:30 * AnMaster twitches at c: being the computer
21:11:31 <ehird> "A thing contains files, which are like letters or photos. You can put files into folders, which are like folders."
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21:13:27 <zzo38> Is this a proper way to write a C code? It seems to work (is it portable?). struct _test_sizes { void*short_size[sizeof(short)==2?1:-5]; void*int_size[sizeof(int)>2?1:-5]; void*long_size[sizeof(long)==4?1:-5]; }
21:13:40 <ehird> Yes, that is portable and valid.
21:13:41 <AnMaster> zzo38, to begin with I would use more newlines
21:13:48 <AnMaster> but yes it looks portable and valid
21:13:54 <ehird> he's zzo38, he can code however he wants
21:13:57 <AnMaster> wait a sec, sizeof test in there?
21:14:02 <zzo38> There is actual newlines in the actual code. But I pasted it here without newlines
21:14:19 <pikhq> zzo38: Any reason for the -5s?
21:14:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, the -5 would be invalid code
21:14:33 <ehird> zzo38: that's invalid
21:14:41 <ehird> you can't have foo[-n]
21:14:46 <ehird> arrays must be of positive length
21:14:51 <ehird> and so, your entire code is invalid
21:15:03 <pikhq> Array declarations must be have naturals.
21:15:14 <ehird> oh, I think what he's trying to do is make it fail to compile if those sizes don't match
21:15:14 <pikhq> ... English is hard today, apparently.
21:15:20 <ehird> zzo38: in which case, I'd suggest doing
21:15:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, unless it is in a function and C99
21:15:30 <ehird> #if sizeof(long)!=4||sizeof(blah)!=blah
21:15:40 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't use sizeof() in #if iirc?
21:15:45 <zzo38> You can't use sizeof in preprocessor
21:15:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: I didn't say they must be constant.
21:16:00 <ehird> zzo38: I see your intent
21:16:11 <AnMaster> zzo38, you could use gnu autoconf
21:16:22 <ehird> stop destroying zzo38's artistry :P
21:16:23 <zzo38> Of course, struct _test_sizes is not used anywhere else in the program. It is defined and then ignored
21:16:28 <AnMaster> zzo38, also relying on those sizes for short int and long in a program is damn stupid
21:16:38 <ehird> zzo38: so, we need a constant expression that is valid if a sizeof is correct, and invalid if it is incorrect
21:16:43 <ehird> but, as a whole, is correct
21:16:43 <AnMaster> zzo38, for example I have 4 byte int and 8 byte long
21:16:51 <zzo38> The reason I did it this way is because sizeof can't be used in preprocessor
21:17:16 <ehird> zzo38: if it works then use it, who cares about standards compliance for a lil hack :P
21:17:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I was joking about autoconf
21:17:31 <pikhq> zzo38: Might I suggest testing against the macros in limits.h?
21:17:32 <zzo38> I think this is standard compliant
21:17:38 <ehird> AnMaster: i know that
21:17:42 <ehird> but the other ones, still
21:18:15 <zzo38> Actually, long is used only by GLK, so I put #ifdef UI_GLK so that the long_size element won't be defined if UI_GLK is not set
21:18:55 <AnMaster> zzo38, no reason to break it if size varies. define some types like myuint64 or whatever
21:19:06 <AnMaster> unless you use C99, then use stdint.h
21:19:10 <zzo38> If it isn't standard compliant, please tell me why it isn't standard compliant. What I read in the book, is that you can use sizeof in constants and that this can use constant
21:19:14 <pikhq> #if USHRT_MIN != 1<<(2*CHAR_BIT) - 1
21:19:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, doesn't that assume two-complement?
21:19:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, what if we have sign bit instead?
21:19:32 -!- jpc has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:19:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... Yes.
21:19:41 -!- jpc has joined.
21:19:48 <pikhq> USHRT_MIN is the unsigned short type.
21:19:51 <ehird> c requires 2-complement doesn't it
21:20:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, it wouldn't break with one complement I think. But what about sign bit
21:20:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, also that #error will give a syntax error
21:20:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, you want #error "DINGDONG"
21:21:21 <zzo38> The only reason I care that sizeof(short)==2 is so that */fwrite(rstack,sizeof(cell),0x100,fp);/* will be compatibility with all computers. However, I have to check endianness too. Possibly I can do something I have seen in somewhere else, use */if(elvis!=0xDEAD)/* for endianness check of the file
21:21:57 <AnMaster> zzo38, err wait why do you need that sizeof(short) == 2 for that fwrite call?
21:22:11 <zzo38> Because otherwise the file won't be readable on another computer
21:22:32 <AnMaster> idea: system independent stdint.h dropin for C89/C90 compilers
21:22:34 <ehird> you could write sizeof(short) inn the file
21:22:38 <ehird> so that it can read like that
21:22:40 <AnMaster> basically a huge mess of ifs and what not
21:22:59 <zzo38> I have #define cell unsigned short
21:23:05 <zzo38> In case you didn't know what "cell" was
21:23:17 <AnMaster> zzo38, anything wrong with typedef? Just wondering
21:23:23 <pikhq> And *this* is why UNIX tends to serialise things as text. :P
21:23:26 <zzo38> No, nothing wrong with typedef
21:23:51 <AnMaster> zzo38, if you use C99 use stdint.h
21:23:55 <zzo38> For all structures other than struct _test_sizes I used typedef struct (name) { } (name)
21:23:58 <AnMaster> otherwise try to write some logic to find it
21:24:16 <AnMaster> zzo38, thing is. that code is rather unportable. the case of short will probably work
21:24:28 <AnMaster> but anything above that you can't depend on
21:24:32 <ehird> zzo38: he meant for typedef unsigned short cell;
21:24:34 <ehird> as opposed to #define
21:24:47 <ehird> no big deal though
21:24:59 <ehird> in fact cpp is probably faster than introducing a type alias to the c compiler
21:25:08 <AnMaster> ehird, just find typedef cleaner, since for one thing that shows the typedefed type in gdb
21:25:15 <AnMaster> which IMO makes debugging easier
21:25:16 <ehird> zzo is probably above debuggers :P
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21:25:30 <zzo38> What you would do, is if it makes a negative array error when you try to compile it, you change the #define cell to make it work, and then try to compile it again
21:25:58 <ehird> zzo38: or even just pass -Dcell=... to the compiler
21:26:03 <ehird> well, that would require that you do
21:26:09 <ehird> #define cell unsigned short
21:26:27 <ehird> autoconf is dead; -D= is the new configuration system! xD
21:26:36 <AnMaster> ehird, does compilers for cell processors define cell I wonder
21:26:46 <AnMaster> well it should be __cell__ or __cell or such
21:26:56 <zzo38> Yes, I guess I should do #ifndef cell so that you can change it
21:26:59 <ehird> "and what if I had a computer named i?@
21:27:05 <ehird> "that did #define i 1?"
21:27:08 <ehird> "WHAT THEN, BITCHES?"
21:27:08 <zzo38> I think probably compilers for cell processors might define CELL but not cell
21:27:20 <ehird> zzo38: old macintosh compilers did #define macintosh, for some odd reason
21:27:31 <ehird> AnMaster: ANY CODE NAMING A VARIABLE i IS UNPORTABLE
21:28:10 <AnMaster> $ echo | gcc -dM -E - | grep -v '#define __'
21:28:12 <ehird> debian-installer is nice
21:28:20 <ehird> well, for desktops it's too involved; for servers, though, it's smoooth
21:28:24 <AnMaster> ehird, at least you can't name a variable unix or linux!
21:28:25 <ehird> specifically the graphical interface
21:28:36 <ehird> there should be a #define NO_SHITTY_DEFINES
21:28:42 <ehird> which stops definitions like that
21:29:00 <ehird> the logic would be simple
21:29:03 <ehird> any variable all in lowercase
21:29:08 <ehird> and not preceded by _
21:29:13 <ehird> _SHITTY_DEFINE_(name)
21:29:25 <ehird> in fact it'd probably have to be a cpp command
21:29:27 <ehird> #NO_SHITTY_DEFINES
21:29:40 <AnMaster> ehird, #pragma no_shitty_defines
21:29:47 <ehird> INSUFFICIENTLY UPPERCASE
21:29:58 <AnMaster> ehird, pragmas are generally lower case though
21:30:06 <ehird> INSUFFICIENTLY UPPERCASE
21:30:31 <AnMaster> ehird, why don't we do #DEFINE then
21:30:48 <AnMaster> (apart from that that is probably a syntax error)
21:31:31 <ehird> #YEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
21:31:55 <pikhq> #pragma no-really-no-fucking-shitty-defines
21:32:15 <AnMaster> what about adding functions in the pre-processor
21:32:49 <AnMaster> like the author of the synthesis OS suggested
21:33:45 <pikhq> Why not just replace the damned thing?
21:33:54 * ehird tries to figure out whether Stephen Fry will live to complete QI
21:34:01 <AnMaster> "To my surprise, I found that there are some things that were distinctly easier to do using Synthesis assembler than using C. In many of these, the powerful macro processor played an important role, and I believe that the C language could be usefully improved with this macro processor. One example is the procedure that interprets receiver status code bits in the driver for the LANCE Ethernet controlle
21:34:01 <AnMaster> r chip. Interpreting these bits is a little tricky because some of the error conditions are valid only when present in conjunction with certain other conditions. One could always use a deeply-nested if-then-else structure to separate out the cases. It would work and also be quite readable and maintainable. But a jump-table implementation is faster. Constructing this table is difficult and error-prone.
21:34:02 <AnMaster> So we use macros to do it. The idea is to define a macro that evaluates the jump-address corresponding to a constant status-value passed as its argument. This macro is defined using preprocessor "#if" statements to evaluate the complex conditionals, which is just as readable and maintainable as regular if statements. The jump-table is then constructed by passing this macro to a counting macro which r
21:34:04 <ehird> we're on the seventh letter, G, and it's been going for 75 months
21:34:09 <AnMaster> epeatedly invokes it, passing it 0, 1, 2, ... and so on, up to the largest status register value (128)."
21:34:11 <ehird> = 10.71 months per letter
21:34:38 <ehird> so, with 19 letters left
21:34:51 <ehird> it will take 203 and a half months for qi to complete
21:35:02 <ehird> which is a little over 17 years
21:35:13 <AnMaster> ehird, who is that person and what is QI?
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21:35:23 <zzo38> When I did: echo | gcc -dM -E - | grep -v '#define __'
21:35:23 <ehird> so, assuming stephen fry lives until at least 69 and doesn't find anything better to do in the interim, we're okay
21:35:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:35:49 <zzo38> I got: _WIN32 _stdcall _cdecl _fastcall _X86_ WIN32 WINNT i386 _INTEGRAL_MAX_BITS
21:35:50 <ehird> AnMaster: Stephen Fry is a British national treasure, hilarious, and the host of QI.
21:36:02 <Pthing> britain's favourite homo
21:36:02 <AnMaster> zzo38, well those with a single _ in front is no issue
21:36:11 <ehird> He's on TV. He did some stuff with Hugh Laurie of House fame in the past few decades. But mostly he's hilarious.
21:36:16 <ehird> Pthing: not saying much
21:36:30 <Pthing> there's a lot of competition
21:36:38 <ehird> AnMaster: QI is a comedy loosely disguised as a quiz show.
21:36:55 <AnMaster> ehird, and where does the getting to letter G and such come into it
21:37:11 <ehird> The basic premises being he asks a question, someone (usually Alan Davies) gives the obvious answer, sirens drone, he waffles on for a few minutes about the correct answer, and the episode ends with most players on negative points.
21:37:24 <ehird> AnMaster: one series = topics starting with that letter in the alphabet
21:38:03 <ehird> here, wikipedia sums it up in more words, but more eloquently, than I can and I should have just copy-pasted this to start with:
21:38:10 <ehird> [[Most of the questions are extremely obscure, making it unlikely that the correct answer will be given. To compensate, points are awarded not only for right answers, but also for interesting ones, regardless of whether they are right or even relate to the original question. Conversely, points are deducted from a panellist who gives, "answers which are not only wrong, but pathetically obvious",[6] typically answers that are generally believed to be true but
21:38:45 <AnMaster> ehird, so that will take 'Q'-'G' number of episodes?
21:39:12 <AnMaster> ehird, if it was one letter per episode?
21:39:18 <ehird> one letter per series
21:39:23 <ehird> (season, whatever your country calls it)
21:39:40 <AnMaster> ehird, season % Swedish spelling
21:39:44 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_QI_episodes#Series
21:39:54 <ehird> I guess I should work out the average length of a series and go from there
21:40:11 <ehird> rather than just time/# of seasons
21:41:16 <ehird> first one three months, second one two months, third one three months, fourth one three months, fifth one three months, sixth one four months
21:41:21 <ehird> and seventh one four monthsh
21:42:02 <ehird> so on average, 3.14 (!!) months per season
21:42:06 <AnMaster> ehird, there was one series per year to begin with
21:42:31 <ehird> "QI is a 26-year-long project" says wikipedia anyway
21:42:34 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
21:43:01 <ehird> so fry should be 72 when it's finished
21:43:12 <ehird> some chance of him dying, but not too great
21:43:18 <ehird> large chance of him getting bored and doing sosmething else
21:44:11 <AnMaster> "Fingers and Fumbs" <-- that one was quite nice too
21:44:19 <ehird> episode 77: "Ganimals"
21:44:38 <AnMaster> "Ganimals"... that's stretching it a bit I think..
21:45:08 <ehird> Presumably, animals starting with G.
21:45:32 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
21:46:12 <AnMaster> but what could Galimaufrey be a typo of
21:46:29 * ehird wonders whether his unix realname should be ehird or Elliott Hird
21:46:33 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&ei=Ez4xS7PxOsui4QbGndGqCA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CA4QBSgA&q=gallimaufry&spell=1
21:46:35 <AnMaster> galimaufrey (Grose 1811 Dictionary)
21:46:35 <AnMaster> A hodgepodge made up of the remnants and scraps of the larder.
21:46:47 <ehird> "A hotchpotch, jumble or confused medley."
21:46:54 <ehird> if my realname is ehird, then emails get sound out as ehird
21:47:07 <ehird> i guess it depends how much I identify with ehird vs Elliott Hird
21:47:13 <ehird> AnMaster: unix real name field
21:47:29 <ehird> From: realname <username@host>
21:47:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well the sent thing explains a LOT
21:47:33 <ehird> is the unix mail system
21:47:43 <AnMaster> ehird, the sound be seriously confused me
21:47:56 <AnMaster> not that I manage very well either
21:48:19 <ehird> i guess i identify as Elliott Hird if you ask me what my name is...
21:48:36 <ehird> but on the other hand, I'd say "I'm ehird" on IRC or whatever if for some reason someone couldn't see my nick
21:48:40 <ehird> (even if they knew my real name too)
21:49:57 <AnMaster> ehird, now I can't see your nick ;P
21:50:13 <AnMaster> I just see <> for everyone, well I see myself due to different colour
21:50:19 <ehird> I want a game where you get lines from an irc channel and have to identify who said them
21:50:36 <ehird> I bet for recent chat in here (say 2008 onwards) I could get >70% accuracy
21:52:29 <ehird> did i say 100% accuracy
21:52:30 <lament> <########> ehird, now I can't see your nick ;P
21:52:47 <ehird> lament said "<########> ehird, now I can't see your nick ;P"
22:01:55 <AnMaster> any English speakers: what is the past tense of seek?
22:03:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, seeked sounded so wrong
22:03:56 <pikhq> Isn't English wonderful?
22:07:02 <ehird> Anyone use Debian sid?
22:10:25 <fizzie> I do, but I'm not very much here at the moment.
22:10:58 <ehird> fizzie: How likely is installing sid directly via netinstall from the http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/ page to work?
22:11:11 <pikhq> ehird: Nah; when I used Debian for my desktop, I'd use testing with a few packages from sid.
22:11:21 <ehird> fizzie: And lastly, are all the mirrors equally up-to-date for sid, or just the *.debian.org mirrors, or just a few of them, or just the US one?
22:12:31 <AnMaster> Weird spam: "50% of on luxary sex farm"
22:15:03 <fizzie> Hrm, well; I guess it's pretty likely to work, though I've usually just installed testing (probably etch on this box) with the devel/debian-installer version, then changed sources.list and aptitude-updated to sid.
22:16:05 <fizzie> As for mirrors, I've used ftp.fi.debian.org exclusively, but never worried about up-to-dateness; I would guess it is quick to refresh, though.
22:16:29 <ehird> Do you think mirrorservice.org in the UK will be up to date as the official UK mirror?
22:18:23 <fizzie> "Just because a site is secondary doesn't necessarily mean it'll be any slower or less up to date than a primary site." Notably, they do not say that it will *not* be that, so...
22:18:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, aren't mirrors supposed to sync on a specific schedule?
22:19:27 <AnMaster> as in, every half hour such that the minutes modulo 30 is between 0 and 5
22:19:49 <AnMaster> (that means between whole our and 5 minutes past and half hour and half hour + 5 minutes)
22:29:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm sure there's some sort of guidelines for the primary mirrors (that have ftp.<country>.debian.org names), but the list has a bazillion "secondary mirrors" for which the requirements might be less strict.
22:30:22 <fizzie> The mirror list says for primary mirrors just "They are all automatically updated whenever there are updates to the Debian archive."
22:31:06 <fizzie> And the mirror submission form has a "frequency of mirroring" field that has the options "push-triggered", "twice a day", "daily", "less often", but I don't see that information actually listed in the list.
22:31:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, push-triggered would be the fastest ones indeed
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22:50:36 <ehird> It would be... interesting.
23:06:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:07:59 <ehird> AnMaster: are erlang bit pattern things two-way?
23:08:39 <ehird> can you do somefunc(that, X=foo, Y=bar)
23:08:43 <ehird> and get some binary data back?
23:09:10 <ehird> or is it simply <<X:1,Y:4,1:1>> is the binary data when used as an expression?
23:10:12 <pikhq> ehird: I'm pretty sure you can pattern-match them, yes.
23:10:22 <ehird> That's the whole point.
23:10:28 <ehird> I mean can you produce binary through them?
23:11:33 <ehird> How do you print in Erlang :P
23:13:34 <ehird> 3> io:fwrite(<<97:8>>).
23:13:39 <ehird> I guess everything's a-OK!
23:14:05 <ehird> 5> X=3, io:fwrite(<<X:8>>).
23:14:40 <pikhq> So, yes, it works that way.
23:15:43 <ehird> But do you have to write it out twice or can you store it so it can somehow be used as a pattern matcher AND an expression?
23:15:46 <ehird> Probably the former
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23:15:53 <ehird> Not too much of a big deal, I guess:
23:16:33 <ehird> parse(<<blah>>) -> {vars}.
23:16:48 <ehird> deparse({vars}) -> <<blah>>.
23:16:51 <ehird> Still, it would be nice.
23:18:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: are erlang bit pattern things two-way? <-- you can use bit patterns both to construct and to match
23:18:42 <ehird> One question though.
23:18:53 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:19:02 <ehird> If I have some binary format, and want parse(binary) -> {vars}
23:19:06 <ehird> and deparse({vars}) -> binary
23:19:13 <ehird> do I really have to write out the binary syntax thing <<>> twice?
23:20:06 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... no you can use a macro. But I believe the left side of = vs right side of = is a big distiction
23:20:25 <AnMaster> ehird, macros are relatively clean in erlang
23:20:33 <AnMaster> for one thing they have a separate namespace
23:20:44 <AnMaster> nothing will be macro expanded without a ? in front
23:21:26 <ehird> Okay, gimme an example macro definition then?
23:25:40 <AnMaster> -define(REGISTER_NAME, {global, ?SERVER}).
23:26:26 <ehird> does that define SERVER or REGISTER_NAME?
23:26:56 <ehird> is the global thing part of the expansion?
23:27:23 <pikhq> REGISTER_NAME evaluates to {global, ?SERVER}, yes...
23:28:32 <ehird> well it could be like an option whether to define it as global or local or something
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23:29:24 <ehird> 1> -define(PROTOCOL, <<X:4, 0:1, Y:4>>).
23:29:25 <ehird> * 1: variable 'PROTOCOL' is unbound
23:29:34 <pikhq> Yes, thus why you asked the question. And it was answered...
23:30:17 * pikhq notes that the prompt seems to dislike statements beginning with a -
23:30:27 <ehird> pikhq: I asked the question but the answer only asked more
23:30:46 <ehird> I could very well see -define(FOO, {global, bar}) meaning "define FOO as a macro in the global scope with expansion bar"
23:30:57 <pikhq> Pity that it doesn't.
23:31:07 <pikhq> That'd imply a much more flexible macro system.
23:31:16 <pikhq> Macros in Erlang have file scope.
23:32:04 <pikhq> And that's just "define FOO as a macro with expansion {global, bar}"
23:32:19 <ehird> <<...>> is called a bitstring, isn't it
23:32:54 <ehird> is there an operator to concatenate them
23:33:05 <ehird> like, you can do <<97:8>> ++ <<98:8>> and get ab
23:33:17 <pikhq> Probably, but I'm not sure what it is.
23:33:22 <pikhq> ... It might actually be ++.
23:33:27 <ehird> or f(<<97:8>> ++ <<98:8>>) == f(<<97:8, 98:8>>)
23:33:42 <ehird> 2> <<97:8>> ++ <<98:8>>.
23:33:42 <ehird> ** exception error: bad argument
23:33:42 <ehird> called as <<"a">> ++ <<"b">>
23:34:50 * ehird wonders what the counterpart to header/prelude at the end of a format is
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23:40:33 <fizzie> Wait, such a thing actually exists? http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/postlude says so. Oh well, I guess it was too obvious a construction.
23:55:26 <AnMaster> <ehird> well it could be like an option whether to define it as global or local or something <-- it was passed as parameters in an OTP behaviour
23:55:34 <AnMaster> and it was globally registered
23:56:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, Gregor: either of you there
23:57:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, as you may know, Mike Riley (author of rc/funge) is planning to commit suicide. I wonder if you, as living in US, could contact the relevant samaritans or whatever.
23:57:59 <AnMaster> we know he lives in Las Vegas, Nevada
23:58:11 <AnMaster> and that he is probably 39 or a bit more
23:58:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, are you saying no to doing that?
23:59:05 <pikhq> I'm doubting the feasibility of such a thing...
23:59:10 <pikhq> Las Vegas is freaking huge.
23:59:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, problem is, they only seem to have phone numbers, not emails, and it seems I'm unable to call outside Sweden on my phone
23:59:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, well we know his name too
23:59:44 <AnMaster> there is a high probability it is probably his real name
23:59:50 <pikhq> Additionally, I don't have much in the way of ability to call long distance.
23:59:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, we also know he lived in Zurich some years ago
00:00:17 <AnMaster> that should narrow the search field down
00:01:23 <AnMaster> "Lives in Las Vegas, 39 years or older, name of Mike Riley, lived in Switzerland some years ago (in or around Zurich)"
00:01:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, can't match too many people now can it?
00:02:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, alternatively you could contact the police. This sounds like a worse option to me though.
00:02:44 <pikhq> Kinda hard to call long-distance, anyways...
00:02:53 <pikhq> Not great phone service.
00:03:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, you are our only hope</bad taste>
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00:52:29 <ehird> AnMaster: you must realise that in US is not very useful
00:52:37 <ehird> because the US is basically 51 countries :P
00:52:57 <pikhq> ehird: More than 50.
00:53:13 <pikhq> There's also the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, ...
00:53:26 <ehird> isn't the District of Columbia small
00:53:45 <pikhq> But heavily urban.
00:53:45 <ehird> also, puerto rico doesn't really share the same services as the us afaik
00:53:53 <ehird> pikhq: alright then
00:54:19 <pikhq> Puerto Rico is set up similarly to the rest of the US.
00:54:43 <pikhq> Though, they pay no federal income taxes, and don't have representation in Congress.
00:54:51 <pikhq> Also, their economy is a tiny bit t3h suck.
00:55:11 <ehird> why isn't D.C. a state anyway
00:55:41 <pikhq> Because the founders wanted the capital to be independent from the states...
00:56:07 <ehird> that's not an answer :P
00:56:35 <pikhq> Why they wanted it that way? Something like "desiring neutrality on possible inter-state conflicts"...
00:57:28 <ehird> it's not like the govt can't vote themselves largesse anyway :P
00:58:39 <Sgeo> I'm trying to promote a group to be an antidote to all the annoying "Add this to get a dislike button/to see who's stalking you" groups: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=info&ref=mf&gid=218522451550
00:59:16 <ehird> "If I were malicious, I could have taken over your Facebook account. Do not trust arbitrary Javascript."
00:59:16 <ehird> ooh, a morality tale
00:59:26 <ehird> this just keeps getting more and more Yawnsville, population: this
00:59:29 <ehird> "* Seth (creator)"
00:59:36 <ehird> i thought you didn't like people knowing your name was Seth
01:01:21 <Sgeo> How likely is a stalker to decide to google Sgeo along with facebook.com?
01:02:44 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: you must realise that in US is not very useful <-- in US, Nevada
01:02:55 <AnMaster> ehird, also they share country code
01:03:04 <Sgeo> ... the Seagull Extinction Organization?
01:03:24 <AnMaster> ehird, and does anyone have separate short/long distance taxes nowdays?
01:03:43 <AnMaster> At least they removed the difference in Sweden around 12 years ago or so
01:04:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: The US is about the size of Europe... Nevada is a long freaking ways away.
01:04:11 <ehird> the us even has different laws for the same things in its 50 countries :-P
01:04:17 <AnMaster> well different abroad costs for different countries
01:04:22 -!- coppro has joined.
01:04:41 <pikhq> It's got more in common with the European Union than any other sort of government, honestly.
01:04:42 <ehird> the us states have some baseline laws, HOPE AND CHANGE, and not all that much else with practical implications in common :P
01:05:10 <AnMaster> ehird, what about "do not commit murder"?
01:05:18 <ehird> "some baseline laws"
01:05:25 <ehird> also, that's one of the ten commandments given to moses by god
01:05:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I believe it is *also* a low in most countries
01:06:04 <ehird> it's not "do not commit murder", it's "if you commit murder we will make your life horrible by force"
01:06:12 <ehird> "do not" doesn't have many implications
01:06:17 <pikhq> No, the law in most countries is "if you are charged with murder, we will do X to you"
01:06:20 <ehird> then again i guess the ten commandments come with the threat of hell anyway
01:06:25 <AnMaster> ehird, the "do not" is what the intention is
01:06:40 <ehird> christian anarchism is a wonderful contradiction :)
01:06:44 -!- FireFly has quit (Operation timed out).
01:06:58 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism
01:07:25 <ehird> "The state is illegitimate! Authority is false! ...but that guy up there in the sky, he can enforce laws through coercion any time he wants. If you catch my meaning. ;)"
01:08:32 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:08:36 <AnMaster> any suggestions for a meaningful meaning of that?
01:09:02 <ehird> washington or franklin did that
01:09:05 * Sgeo actually came up with one a while ago
01:09:08 <ehird> wrote a book that was basically a secular bible
01:09:16 <ehird> basically, using the teachings of jesus as a moral code, without supernatural implications
01:09:26 <Sgeo> ehird, that wasn't Jefferson?
01:09:31 -!- coppro has joined.
01:09:31 <pikhq> The Jefferson Bible.
01:09:35 <ehird> founders, all the same really :P
01:09:39 <ehird> even though franklin isn't one
01:09:46 <ehird> they unfortunately overlooked the fact that the bible isn't really the best moral code
01:10:35 * pikhq notes that Franklin is a founding father...
01:11:02 <ehird> erm, huh, maybe it's something else he wasn't
01:11:07 <ehird> brainfart there :/
01:11:26 <pikhq> He was definitely never President.
01:11:27 <ehird> embarrassing, this.
01:11:39 <ehird> "BEN FRANKLIN: Not a cucumber. At least that's what THEY want you to believe."
01:11:48 <pikhq> Kinda died before the Constitution was signed, so...
01:11:59 <AnMaster> ehird, and not a tomato either
01:12:21 <AnMaster> anyway you can make up lots of stuff he wasn't
01:12:21 <ehird> pikhq: huh, franklin died before the us begun?
01:13:23 <pikhq> ehird: No, no. He died before the second constitution was signed.
01:13:51 <pikhq> The Articles of Confederation, however, were around in his lifetime.
01:14:01 <ehird> §By 2009, game developers will face…
01:14:02 <ehird> – 80+ hardware threads
01:14:02 <ehird> – >1 TFLOP of computing power
01:14:02 <ehird> §GPU’s with general computing capabilities.
01:14:04 <ehird> §Game developers will be at the forefront.
01:14:06 <ehird> §If we are to program these devices
01:14:08 <ehird> productively, you are our only hope!
01:14:09 <ehird> — Tim Sweeney, The Next Mainstream Programming Language
01:14:12 <ehird> that CPU line is a bit of an epic misprediction
01:14:29 <ehird> http://www.st.cs.uni-saarland.de/edu/seminare/2005/advanced-fp/docs/sweeny.pdf rest of it is top-notch stuff though. And its mentioning of dependent types makes me really want to find a practical way to do them.
01:15:15 <pikhq> He served as the first ambassador to France and Sweden, as well as being the first Postmaster, for the united States of America.
01:16:14 <pikhq> Strictly speaking, the first constitution is still around -- it declared itself to be perpetual. :P
01:16:34 <ehird> Someone use that in court.
01:17:13 <pikhq> In fact, near as I can tell, the second one merely replaces most of the functional provisions of the constitution, "to form a more perfect Union".
01:17:38 <pikhq> ... Oh, that's not just my interpretation.
01:17:54 <pikhq> That's the opinion of the Supreme Court, in Texas vs. White (1869)
01:18:38 <ehird> a working dependent type system should be purely compile-time of course...
01:18:49 <ehird> in fact i think using them will give the compiler more static information and thus let it compile better
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01:25:41 <ehird> pikhq: hmm... the array type in a dependently-typed language should have the size as part of its type, shouldn't it?
01:27:58 <ehird> Index (Array n _) = Nat `That` (< n)
01:27:59 <ehird> Index (Array n _) = Set.filter (< n) Nat
01:28:06 <ehird> for the latter, the type of types would be Set
01:28:19 <ehird> dunno which i prefer more, former seems more "familiar"
01:28:30 <ehird> latter seems more general
01:29:50 <ehird> foo :: ary@(Array n a) -> Array m (Index ary) -> Array m a
01:30:40 <ehird> i.e. foo (makeArray [10..1,-1]) (makeArray [2,4]) → makeArray [8,6]
01:31:07 <ehird> dunno whether that's actually any more "meaningful" than having
01:31:20 <ehird> NatBelow n = Set.filter (< n) Nat
01:31:36 <ehird> foo :: Array n a -> Array m (NatBelow n) -> Array m a
01:32:17 <ehird> pikhq: have you read the "total fp" paper?
01:33:14 <ehird> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2003, direct link: http://www.jucs.org/jucs_10_7/total_functional_programming/jucs_10_07_0751_0768_turner.pdf
01:33:25 <ehird> pikhq: basically, it's sub-TC but not totally impractical FP
01:33:27 <ehird> no function can diverge
01:33:30 <ehird> i.e. partiality is a side-effect
01:33:43 <ehird> i.e. if a function types, it returns a result of that type when you call it. No exceptions
01:33:46 <ehird> anyway, the idea is
01:33:56 <ehird> in a dependently-typed language, you are often called upon to prove that a value has a certain type
01:34:01 <ehird> because of the TC type system
01:34:18 <ehird> what if the language had a mode in which it was a Total FP language
01:34:26 <ehird> and that language is what you do proofs in?
01:34:34 <ehird> that way, your proofs must be sound
01:34:43 <ehird> no using "undefined" to get around type requirements in your proof or whatnot
01:34:47 <ehird> thus ensuring the safety of the language
01:35:03 <ehird> incidentally, spot the bug in that paper
01:35:04 <ehird> > fib (n+2) = fib (n+1) + fib (n+2)
01:35:08 <ehird> slight oops there :)
01:35:29 <ehird> amusingly enough that wouldn't be valid in total fp
01:35:32 <ehird> since n+2 is not reduced
01:35:43 <ehird> see, an accidental case study right in the paper
01:56:10 <ehird> why does wikipedia need 7.5 M$
01:56:20 <ehird> bandwidth doesn't cost _that_ much
01:56:24 <ehird> nor does server space
01:57:31 <soupdragon> is this just an intellectual exercise, ehird?
01:58:39 <soupdragon> you seem to be designing a dependently-typed language
01:59:02 <ehird> [01:14] ehird: http://www.st.cs.uni-saarland.de/edu/seminare/2005/advanced-fp/docs/sweeny.pdf rest of it is top-notch stuff though. And its mentioning of dependent types makes me really want to find a practical way to do them.
01:59:17 <ehird> but also as intellectual masturbation, yes... like everything we do in this channel
01:59:24 <ehird> soupdragon: to do it in a more practical way
01:59:37 <ehird> to not be a proof system like coq and agda and the like
01:59:51 <ehird> to have reasonable io working with dependent types
01:59:58 <ehird> to be more haskelly, haskell gets most of the other stuff right
02:00:03 <ehird> no reason to deviate when it's not required
02:00:12 <ehird> and to also have compiles be relatively short and the like
02:00:20 <ehird> a practical dependently-typed language, then
02:04:45 <soupdragon> You will need a large library of (beginner level) mathematics to justify termination and correctness for less basic programs, and some kind of plug-in system to hook new decision procedures into elaborating programs
02:05:02 <pikhq> ehird: The Wikimedia Foundation does more than host Wikipedia.
02:06:15 <ehird> yes, but 7 and a half megabucks?
02:06:35 <ehird> soupdragon: not concerned about termination
02:06:44 <ehird> be partial all you want unless it's in the proof subsystem
02:06:51 <ehird> (which is a total subset of the language)
02:07:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:07:44 -!- FireFly has quit ("Leaving").
02:07:50 * pikhq pulls up the Wikimedia finance report
02:08:36 <ehird> soupdragon: point is, though, regular programming should just be like haskell but a little more type-strict goodness and a few more type annotations to prove to the computer that you're not being stupid
02:08:41 <ehird> or rather, as close to this goal as is possible
02:10:07 <pikhq> $3 million in salaries, $1 million in hosting, $0.2 million for fundraising, $0.3 for travel expensions, $0.7 for facilities...
02:10:23 <soupdragon> but what exactly do you mean not being stupid, there is a spectrum of correctness and if you want to reach certain levels the impact on the programmer will have a stronger effect
02:10:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:10:40 <coppro> ehird: what do you consider an annotation?
02:10:46 <AnMaster> <ehird> why does wikipedia need 7.5 M$ <-- secret Mind/Gene Ray control project
02:11:18 <ehird> coppro: well, technically it'd be a proof
02:11:25 <ehird> in a total subset of the language
02:11:33 <ehird> soupdragon: agreed
02:11:48 <ehird> coppro: if you don't know what a total language is, best to just give up on the discussion now :P
02:11:56 <pikhq> Most of those salaries go to tech support.
02:12:46 <coppro> oh wait, I misread your message
02:13:06 <ehird> pikhq: Tech support. Really now.
02:13:21 <pikhq> ... Wrong fucking term.
02:13:24 <ehird> 1 M$ in hosting... seems about right
02:13:26 <pikhq> It's been a long day. XD
02:13:31 <ehird> 0.2 M$ for fundraising?!
02:13:47 <ehird> All they do is tell the programmers: "Put a fucking big banner up and link to a video by Jimmy Wales that nobody will watch."
02:13:54 <ehird> "MAKE IT BIGGER THAN THE SUN"
02:14:26 <ehird> anyway, that's 5.2 M$
02:14:33 <ehird> so where did the 2.3 M$ come from?
02:14:57 <pikhq> That's not the whole thing.
02:15:07 <pikhq> Just some of the larger items.
02:16:19 <soupdragon> you didn't answer my question though -_-
02:16:48 <soupdragon> what exactly do you mean not being stupid
02:17:11 <ehird> soupdragon: as in, you read a string from stdin and parse it into a Nat
02:17:22 <ehird> and pass it to a function expecting a (Set.filter (< somenumber) Nat)
02:17:39 <ehird> at this point, the compiler goes "WHOA BOY! I'm gonna have to see some ID for that natural."
02:20:05 <ehird> basically your responsibility would be providing a proof that the number you read conforms to (Set.filter (< somenumber) Nat)
02:20:14 <ehird> i.e. providing a proof that the number < somenumber
02:20:34 <ehird> so you'd do an if/else to make sure it was, and in the clause where it is ... yer done
02:28:56 <ehird> soupdragon: wasn't that question going to lead onto something else? :P
02:29:39 <soupdragon> I'm trying to gauge where you are targeting but you've just said that it's possible to depend on preconditions
02:34:08 <ehird> soupdragon: as opposed to?
02:34:19 <ehird> admittedly I'm not the most familiar with dependent types; I know the basic structure but not the variations
02:34:48 <soupdragon> have you studied the ones I mentioned earlier
02:35:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> [01:14] ehird: http://www.st.cs.uni-saarland.de/edu/seminare/2005/advanced-fp/docs/sweeny.pdf rest of it is top-notch stuff though. And its mentioning of dependent types makes me really want to find a practical way to do them.
02:35:57 <ehird> no; I will. how are they different from coq/agda style?
02:36:01 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
02:36:07 <AnMaster> "§ By 2009, game developers will face…
02:36:20 <soupdragon> well they're a lot closer to what you seem to be describing (which is why I mentioned the)
02:36:23 <ehird> it's not his fault progress let him down
02:36:27 <ehird> how many cores does the ps3 have anyway
02:36:49 <AnMaster> ehird, "80+ hardware threads" is also off
02:37:02 <ehird> one of them is PPE the others are SPEs
02:37:09 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, well, can't fault a man for being hopeful
02:37:13 <ehird> soupdragon: googlin' em up
02:37:35 * Sgeo can fault Kurzweil for giving him false hope
02:37:40 <Sgeo> If he turns out to be wrong
02:37:46 <ehird> Kurzweil is wrong.
02:38:00 <ehird> His dates, certainly.
02:38:08 <ehird> The other stuff, who knows.
02:38:22 <ehird> But he very much chooses and advances his dates based on his expected lifespan.
02:38:53 <Sgeo> Night AnMaster
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02:42:31 <ehird> soupdragon: Data Manipulation Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
02:42:32 <ehird> Data Manipulation Language (DML) is a family of computer languages used by computer programs and/or database users to insert, delete and update data in a ...
02:42:33 <ehird> presumably not that
02:42:39 <ehird> and I can't get meaningful results for She
02:42:51 <ehird> could you link me to appropriate documents for DML and She?
02:43:25 <ehird> "While ATS is primarily a language based on eager (aka. call-by-value) evaluation" laaaaame :)
02:43:34 <soupdragon> it's basically ML with arithmetic in the type system
02:44:01 <soupdragon> She is the Strathclide Haskell Extention
02:44:21 <ehird> integer arithmetic?
02:44:32 <ehird> ok, so dml begat ATS
02:44:38 <ehird> soupdragon: ah yes, _that_ she
02:45:10 <ehird> soupdragon: how does she work, btw? it's just a preprocessor, isn't it?
02:45:14 <ehird> not sure how it can do dependent types like that
02:45:25 <ehird> [[The Strathclyde Haskell Enhancement is an experimental preprocessor for the Glasgow Haskell Compiler, concocted hastily by Conor McBride at the University of Strathclyde. Its current functionality includes]]
02:45:30 <ehird> Self-admittedly a preprocessor.
02:45:36 <ehird> soupdragon: but do you not distinguish cpp from gcc
02:45:43 <ehird> when I read She output
02:45:47 <ehird> it looks very much like haskell, tbh
02:45:54 <ehird> can it really do the full shebang of dependent fun?
02:45:58 <ehird> type-safe printf, for instance?
02:47:27 <ehird> ok, so dml is a restricted form of dependent types
02:47:42 <ehird> seems to be adequate for basic things
02:48:14 <ehird> ats is impure, it seems.
02:51:32 <soupdragon> she doesn't support full spectrum dependent types
02:51:58 <ehird> admittedly i don't even know if full dependent types are useful
02:52:28 <ehird> type-safe array indexing, absolutely, type-safe printf, almost certainly
02:52:43 <ehird> going more expressive than that, though, probably gets very annoying for the programmer thrust those types upon him fast
03:21:19 <ehird> fizzie: didn't you say debian is using grub 2 these days?
03:21:23 <ehird> installed debian testing, 1.97
03:30:38 <ehird> The Linux OOM killer: "it's like a big game of core wars on your computer".
03:36:13 <pikhq> Yes, 1.97 is Grub 2.
03:36:22 <ehird> Stupid versioning system.
03:36:32 <pikhq> Well, they never had a 1.0...
03:36:40 <pikhq> So they're using the 1.x for pre-release builds of 2.
03:36:45 <ehird> C-INTERCAL's is much more reasonable. It'd be -3.2
03:36:54 <ehird> Or 2.-3, in traditional major.minor form.
03:40:50 <ehird> technically i find that too restricting in the integer form
03:40:52 <ehird> I would do it like this
03:44:17 <ehird> making root accessible only by sudo for dummies
03:44:31 <ehird> I used to just do -l, but it turns out that leaves the original password after !
03:44:37 <ehird> which makes me uncomfortable, as it will never be used again
03:44:43 <ehird> this one replaces the entire field with a nice clean !
03:46:11 <ehird> wtf, default debian includes "vi" as vim but not "vim"
03:54:35 <ehird> pikhq: incidentally, here's the most retarded thing ever: Someone actually made their shell script explicitly execute with dash, not because they required some POSIX-compliant thing that bash and the like lacked, but because they were writing it in POSIX shell, and so used the only POSIX-compliant shell they knew of.
03:54:40 <ehird> You know, not like /bin/sh is supposed to be that.
03:54:52 <ehird> And it's not like bash suffices for... well, just about any POSIX shell use.
03:54:53 <pikhq> ehird: That's freaking retarded.
03:55:43 <pikhq> Default Debian kinda has a barebones install, but I didn't realise they were so barebones as to not install vim...
03:56:04 <pikhq> And I thought that dash was only used as a small shell for the installer...
03:56:37 <ehird> Ookay, I don't think people in the sudo group are meant to receive email sent to root.
03:56:52 <ehird> Oh, probably because I did "sudo apt-get dist-upgrade" apt decided to be helpful and send it to me, too.
03:56:56 <ehird> pikhq: They have vim.
03:56:59 <ehird> It's just called vi.
03:57:05 <ehird> And no, dash is /bin/sh on Debian.
03:57:11 <ehird> Nothing wrong with that.
03:57:17 <ehird> But what this person did? Dummmmmmb.
03:57:20 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, it's weird
03:57:22 <pikhq> vi being vim, but not vim being vim, that is.
03:57:29 <pikhq> /bin/sh being dash?
03:57:35 <pikhq> I can accept that.
03:57:41 <ehird> Well, it's vim-tiny, which is mostly intended for things-that-call-vi.
03:58:16 <pikhq> /bin/sh should only be a POSIX shell -- beyond that, I don't care so long as I can get me a zsh.
03:58:22 <ehird> ls: unrecognized prefix: hl
03:58:22 <ehird> ls: unparsable value for LS_COLORS environment variable
03:58:31 <ehird> Upgrading to sid breaking your current session's ls.
03:58:33 <ehird> There's a new one.
03:58:44 <pikhq> Yeah, that's a new one.
03:58:47 <ehird> At least shutdown still works.
03:58:50 <pikhq> export LS_COLORS=""?
03:59:05 <ehird> I just rebooted. Probably some bootup stuff changed, anyway.
03:59:09 <ehird> Might as well have it all happy-like.
04:01:31 <ehird> ...wait, "apt-get autoclean" exists?
04:01:42 <pikhq> BTW, you should totally use aptitude.
04:01:48 <ehird> I wonder if it was a bad idea to use autoclean.
04:01:54 <ehird> pikhq: apt has progressed enough that aptitude is useless
04:02:18 * ehird tries to figure out if there's an apt-get no-i-dont-fucking-want-that-old-kernel
04:02:22 <pikhq> I thought that aptitude had better dependency resolution than apt, and that apt-get was considered outmoded?
04:02:51 <ehird> Nope, the thing aptitude gives you (remove packages that aren't depended on any more) is now available as "apt-get autoclean".
04:03:00 <ehird> Admittedly, it's an extra step, but it informs you they exist whenever you do anything else.
04:03:22 <pikhq> Okay, so aptitude doesn't give you anything more than an ncurses interface.
04:03:31 <pikhq> (and not a great one)
04:04:31 <ehird> http://i.imgur.com/Dnozc.gif
04:06:09 <ehird> http://www.arrangebypenis.com/
04:06:31 <pikhq> Yes, yes, http://i.imgur.com/Dnozc.gif the http://www.arrangebypenis.com/!
04:08:38 <ehird> alias sag='sudo apt-get'
04:08:38 <ehird> alias sagi='sudo apt-get install'
04:08:52 <ehird> "sag remove" is rather disturbing though
04:10:21 * ehird tries to figure out where debian wants me to put things
04:10:31 <ehird> I think export EDITOR=vim should go in .profile
04:10:38 <ehird> and those aliases in .bashrc
04:11:08 <ehird> yeah, it's just that debian comes with tons of stuff in the files by default
04:11:23 <ehird> e.g. .profile includes .bashrc if we're running bash
04:11:39 <coppro> pikhq: Aptitude has some other features, like when you perform an operation, it tells you how many packages have changed status
04:11:49 <coppro> also, it has better conflict resolution
04:13:28 <ehird> has anyone ever installed sid by changing the mirrors in the debian-installer testing livecd :)
04:13:39 <ehird> i don't see any reason it shouldn't be as reliable as upgrading from unstable
04:13:45 <ehird> (for value of reliability equal to not at all)
04:14:13 <pikhq> ehird: I thought that that was a supported means of using the livecd?
04:14:23 <pikhq> Well, as supported as anything else in Sid.
04:14:35 <ehird> The canonical answer is: You don't. You can only upgrade to it from stable or testing. You do that by editing /etc/apt/sources.list and changing your sources from stable to unstable.
04:14:35 <ehird> There are some unofficial "sid ISO images" out there. They are dangerous, unofficial and obsolete (by definition!). Stay away from them.
04:14:36 <ehird> It may also be possible to install sid packages instead of testing packages if you're using a net install from the testing branch. This is not supported, but if you want to try it, you're free to do so. It's your machine, after all. Just don't cry if it breaks.
04:14:42 <ehird> (answer to "How do I install sid?")
04:14:54 <ehird> the answer being basically "It might work, and it might work. You know, just like sid LOL"
04:15:32 <ehird> "Should I use sid on my server?
04:15:32 <ehird> Are you insane? No!"
04:15:32 <ehird> FACTUALLY INCORRECT, FAQ-WRITER
04:18:06 <pikhq> The only thing crazier is using Gentoo ** on a server.
04:18:42 <pikhq> (meaning KEYWORD_ACCEPT="**", meaning that Portage will feel free to install any package that is marked as being able to compile)
04:19:32 <pikhq> I should note that that's "compile on at least one of Gentoo's architectures", not necessarily "compile on your architecture".
04:20:00 <pikhq> It'd even accept building FreeBSD libc on Windows doing that.
04:20:03 <ehird> It's not too crazy; I'd say rumours of sid's dog-eating are greatly exaggerated
04:20:19 <ehird> I mean, come on; it's not like Arch will be any stabler
04:20:53 <ehird> Debian folk are just the genteel, careful sort.
04:21:32 * pikhq wonders if FreeBSD libc can build on any non-FreeBSD system...
04:22:20 <pikhq> Well. Yeah, probably there.
04:23:26 <coppro> I'd expect it'll build on most systems. No clue if it will run
04:23:31 <pikhq> Gentoo only appears to support it on sparc-fbsd and x86-fbsd.
04:23:42 <pikhq> Doesn't mean much, though.
04:25:50 <ehird> What would be nice: A sort of blend of awk and sed.
04:26:05 <ehird> Say a script produces foo, a number of spaces depending on the width of foo, and then a size in kilobytes, lots of times..
04:26:10 <ehird> But you want it in megabytes.
04:26:45 <ehird> sewk '/\d+/ { print &/1024 }'
04:26:45 <pikhq> That idea, plus 20 years, is Perl.
04:26:52 <ehird> yes, but perl is shit.
04:27:19 <uorygl> "Perl sucks." --my dad, a Java web programmer
04:27:28 <ehird> actually if you used the awk derivative proposed in the structural regular expressions paper, you could do
04:27:51 <coppro> perl -e 'while (<>) { s=(\d+)=$1/24=e; print; }'
04:27:56 <uorygl> pikhq: so does that mean Portage will actually try to install all those packages, or just that it will be relatively uninhibited?
04:28:00 <ehird> awk '/\d+/ { print $1/1024 } /.*/ { print $1 }'
04:28:16 <pikhq> uorygl: It will try to install them if you ask for them.
04:28:30 <ehird> coppro: using = as a dlimiter.
04:28:37 <ehird> that is just awful
04:28:41 <ehird> also, a manual while <> loop?
04:29:05 <coppro> ehird: feel free to use pipe or something
04:29:11 <pikhq> It's basically the "Fuck off, Gentoo, I know exactly what I want installed" mode.
04:29:29 <ehird> coppro: Fine, then at least:
04:29:38 <ehird> perl -pe 's=\d+=&/24=e'
04:29:43 <ehird> Or, less HORRIBLY CONFUSINGLY,
04:29:53 <ehird> perl -pe 's|\d+|&/24|e'
04:30:02 <uorygl> What does while (<>) mean?
04:30:19 <ehird> <> = read a line from input; if you don't assign it to anything (or maybe even if you do), put it in $_.
04:30:36 <ehird> input is either stdin, or if you put multiple files as command line arguments, them in succession (as if catted together)
04:30:45 <ehird> obviously it's false as a boolean if there's no more input
04:30:51 <uorygl> Is this "maybe" an ehird-uncertainty maybe or a the-way-Perl-actually-works maybe?
04:30:53 <ehird> so while (<>) continually slurps lines of input, for processing
04:31:11 <pikhq> uorygl: Perl is crazy, but not that crazy.
04:31:22 <coppro> $_ is only used by default if no other variable is specified
04:31:31 <ehird> Ugh, if you specify e as a regexp option, & isn't expanded.
04:31:36 <ehird> Why are you fuck-shit retarded, Perl. Why.
04:31:39 <pikhq> It's merely crazy enough to make parsing equivalent to solving the halting problem. :P
04:31:44 <ehird> coppro: no, that's not what & is
04:31:52 <ehird> & should work to avoid needless parenthesising of the whole expression
04:31:58 <ehird> & is what $0 would be\
04:32:04 <ehird> if $0 wasn't taken
04:32:16 <coppro> & might be used in the expression
04:32:32 <ehird> so escape it, the regex terminator mighht be too
04:32:44 <ehird> okay, this works, somehow it fucks up the alignm— wait a second, those results are wrong
04:33:06 <ehird> $_ is wrong, bitch :P
04:33:53 <ehird> \d was replacing the numbers in the package names
04:34:24 <ehird> since some of them are
04:34:36 <ehird> the replacement messes it up
04:35:01 <ehird> perl should have a thing you can enable so that it analyses how the data is aligned, and keeps that alignment.
04:36:35 <uorygl> It often seems like other languages use syntactic sugar where Haskell would use a user-definable function.
04:36:49 <coppro> Perl is all syntactic sugar
04:37:33 <uorygl> Yeah, Lisp has macro thingies. I don't know if I want to wrap my entire program inside one function that changes the program's semantics perhaps significantly.
04:37:41 <uorygl> And, of course, Haskell has lots of syntactic sugar.
04:38:19 <pikhq> I count only a few bits.
04:38:20 <ehird> you don't have to wrap your entire program, macros can be used in subexpressions you know :P
04:38:22 <uorygl> It has too many pieces of syntactic sugar to count on one hand.
04:38:32 <coppro> I mean, C++ is C with syntactic sugar. *ducks*
04:38:42 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/ahl6z/i_dare_you_to_set_this_as_your_desktop_background/c0hm413?context=4
04:38:53 <ehird> oh god, now I want a rotatable monitor
04:39:43 <uorygl> Newtype declarations, guards, do notation, pattern guards, case statements, list notation, list builder notation...
04:39:54 <ehird> Newtype declarations aren't sugar.
04:40:01 <pikhq> Case statements aren't sugar.
04:40:16 <ehird> Well, either case or pattern matching is sugar.
04:40:21 <ehird> Kind of irrelevant which one.
04:40:25 <ehird> "If you put it as your desktop background and then start pink floyd's "the wall" at the same time as the lion roars on the Wizard of Oz...
04:40:25 <ehird> Flying monkeys come out of YOUR BUTT"
04:40:26 <pikhq> ehird: I thought that the other pattern matching got desugared to case?
04:40:30 <uorygl> If case statements aren't sugar, then ordinary pattern matching is sugar.
04:40:35 <ehird> It's equivalent, either way.
04:40:36 <pikhq> Moot point, though.
04:40:41 <uorygl> Semantically, it doesn't... what they said.
04:41:20 <pikhq> uorygl: You managed to name most of the syntactic sugar.
04:41:45 <pikhq> Infix functions and list comprehensions are the other two that I can think of.
04:42:01 <uorygl> Then you have some exotic things like mdo notation, do guards, arrow do notation.
04:42:17 <uorygl> List comprehensions are what I meant by list builder notation.
04:42:21 <pikhq> mdo notation, do guards, and arrow do notation are GHC extensions.
04:43:28 <pikhq> You also omitted the (soon-to-be-gone) n+k matches.
04:44:04 <uorygl> I thought they might have already been gone.
04:45:01 <ehird> They are in Haskell 2010. Thank god.
04:45:28 <pikhq> Oh, right. Haskell 2010 has been ratified.
04:49:29 <uorygl> ehird: I have set that image as my desktop background.
04:49:34 <pikhq> The Haskell Commitee.
04:49:44 <ehird> Pantomime moment there.
04:49:57 <ehird> "Who ratified it?" "The committee" "Which committee?" "The Haskell Committee."
04:50:48 <coppro> Which Haskell Committee?
04:50:58 <ehird> The only Haskell Committee!
04:51:21 <uorygl> Does this Haskell Committee have a website?
04:51:37 <ehird> Which www.haskell.org?
04:52:03 <uorygl> The www.haskell.org endorsed by haskell.org's nameserver!
04:52:56 <uorygl> Which haskell.org? The haskell.org endorsed by .org's nameserver! Which .org? The one operated by Afilias Limited! Which Afilias Limited? I dunno, is there more than one?
04:53:13 <pikhq> uorygl: Which .org? The .org endorsed by .'s nameserver!
04:53:33 <uorygl> But . has lots of nameservers, each operated by a different company.
04:54:34 <coppro> There are 11 root nameservers iirc?
04:54:52 <uorygl> That's too many letters.
04:54:59 <pikhq> Under root-servers.net
04:55:19 <pikhq> uorygl: I redefine arithmetic to make you wrong.
04:55:42 <ehird> SWEET BABIES OF LUXURY
04:55:42 <pikhq> succ(12) = 11, dammit!
04:55:50 <ehird> Suck 12 equals 11.
04:56:00 <ehird> YOU KILLED SOMEONE WHILE PERFORMING ORAL SEX UPON THEM?!
04:56:12 <uorygl> www.haskell.org is the same thing as bugs.haskell.org, according to serv1.net.yale.edu. serv1.net.yale.edu is an authoritative nameserver for haskell.org, according to A2.ORG.AFILIAS-NST.INFO. A2.ORG.AFILIAS-NST.INFO is an authoritative nameserver for .org, according to G.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. G.ROOT-SERVERS.NET is an authoritative nameserver for ., according to 209.20.72.4.
04:56:17 <uorygl> And 209.20.72.4 is not an authoritative nameserver.
04:56:29 <pikhq> ehird: No, I am declaring that out of ever 12 instances of oral sex, 11 will survive.
04:56:45 <ehird> ORAL SEX: The hidden killer... IN YOUR PANTS
04:56:56 <ehird> FOX NEWS SPECIAL REPORT
04:57:35 <pikhq> uorygl: Out of band knowledge confirms that g.root-servers.net is an authoritative nameserver for . (according to ICANN)
04:57:46 <uorygl> So in order to figure out what www.haskell.org is, one must first know what serv1.net.yale.edu and A2.ORG.AFILIAS-NST.INFO are.
04:57:49 <ehird> I wish with Debian-Installer you could say "regular install but prompt me for this extra step"
04:57:55 <ehird> as opposed to trundling through the boring expert install
04:58:19 <uorygl> In order to figure out what serv1.net.yale.edu is, one must first know what C.GTLD-SERVERS.NET is.
04:58:33 <ehird> In order to figure out what any domain is, one must first know what any of [A-M].ROOT-SERVERS.NET are.
04:58:54 <pikhq> The query goes from . down.
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04:58:56 <uorygl> In order to figure out what C.GTLD-SERVERS.NET is, one must first know what C.GTLD-SERV--wait, hang on.
04:59:11 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, but . is defined by the root serverrs.
04:59:14 <zzo38> Hay! Wait! Hang on!
04:59:26 <ehird> If you have an IPP for any of [A-M].ROOT-SERVERS.NET, you're sorted.
04:59:37 <zzo38> Now I can look at the logs
05:00:13 <uorygl> It appears that C.GTLD-SERVERS.NET is inaccessible without prior knowledge of C.GTLD-SERVERS.NET
05:00:19 <pikhq> ehird: Yes. The root servers are kinda stuck into BIND.
05:00:50 <uorygl> How do you figure out what it is, then? It's the nameserver for .net.
05:01:00 <ehird> It's cool that you only need to know one single IP to be able to browse all the web you want.
05:01:14 <uorygl> Assuming that /[A-M].ROOT-SERVERS.NET/ matches only one string.
05:01:37 <ehird> You could be locked in a room with only a Forth console plugged into an internet connection, and as long as you can remember one single IP, you can build yourself a full web browser.
05:01:48 <ehird> And browse the interrwebnets.
05:01:52 <pikhq> uorygl: Here's how it works: you query [a-m].root-servers.net what net is. You query net what gtld-servers.net is. You query gtld-servers.net what c.gtld-servers.net is.
05:02:17 <pikhq> ehird: It'll be difficult, but yes.
05:02:23 <uorygl> pikhq: net isn't a server; you can't query it.
05:02:31 <pikhq> uorygl: Yes it is.
05:02:39 <ehird> Question. When Debian "installs the base system", from CD instead of the network, is any of that left at the end of the installation?
05:02:45 <ehird> Or is it all upgraded from the repos.
05:02:55 <ehird> pikhq: DNS is a pretty easy protocol, isn't it?
05:03:08 <uorygl> pikhq: ping tells me that net is an unknown host. dig tells me that net has no A record.
05:03:13 <ehird> TCP/IP would fuck you up, but let's say TCP/IP was on a piece of paper next to you.
05:03:39 <uorygl> Doesn't DNS operate greatly over UDP?
05:03:42 <pikhq> Oh, fine. You query [a-m].root-servers.net what gtld-servers.net is. You query gtld-servers.net what c.gtld-servers.net is.
05:03:44 <zzo38> Of course, it would be simpler to make a client to telnet and make like a raw dumb terminal, or to make a simple gopher client, and so on.
05:03:59 <pikhq> UDP or TCP; both are valid.
05:04:00 <ehird> Then it wouldn't be hard from just an internet link, the TCP/UDP/IP specs, one single IP, and knowledge of how to do basic DNS and HTTP requests to load google.com.
05:04:16 <ehird> A little string manipulation later, voila, dumb-ass web browser.
05:04:23 <zzo38> Yes, you could load google.com easily like that
05:04:26 <pikhq> UDP is generally used for smaller queries, but supporting it isn't mandatory from a client.
05:04:42 <ehird> A better path may be to connect to IRC and ask for help because dammit they aren't giving me food and I'm not sure where I am and I don't know if they'll let me out and I don't know who they are help helph elp
05:04:46 <zzo38> But you would need HTML and various image file formats, JavaScript, etc, to make the full use.
05:04:58 <ehird> zzo38: HTML and JavaScript are quite self-describing.
05:05:03 <pikhq> I can browse the web with freaking nc.
05:05:14 <pikhq> It's kinda annoying, but you can do it just fine.
05:05:16 <ehird> If you can do a basic HTTP request, you're savvy enough to work out how HTML, CSS and JS work through observation and testing.
05:05:18 <zzo38> pikhq: Well, yes you certainly can, but it isn't very good
05:05:29 <pikhq> We're not asking for good.
05:05:33 <pikhq> We're asking for functional.
05:05:44 <uorygl> Success; the root nameservers tell you who the gtld-servers.net people are.
05:05:55 <zzo38> It is not too difficult to write a proper HTML, with most things, and a bit harder for JavaScript, although, you would still need it if you wanted it complete
05:06:07 <uorygl> Hmm, I should have realized that before. The root zone file is loaded with hints.
05:06:09 <zzo38> But, yes, just netcat is good enough to connect
05:07:03 <uorygl> I think that if it mentions a domain name, it gives you both an A record and an NS record for it.
05:08:09 <ehird> Actually, that's a good point. Why does Debian netinstall first install from the CD?
05:08:11 <ehird> That is poopy-stupid.
05:08:32 <ehird> ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
05:08:32 <ehird> .10800INSOAa.root-servers.net. nstld.verisign-grs.com. 2009122201 1800 900 604800 86400
05:08:40 <ehird> Wonder if a is somehow more authoritative than the others, or whether someone was just lazy.
05:09:40 <ehird> "dig net." isn't very helpful.
05:09:47 <zzo38> Which system is best for text-adventure games, is it Glulx, or TADS, or Z-machine
05:10:20 <uorygl> ehird: yes, because there's no server there.
05:10:32 <uorygl> dig looks for A and maybe AAAA records for whatever you give it.
05:10:34 <ehird> There isn't any at ., either.
05:10:51 <ehird> Those are the special magic root server records.
05:11:08 <uorygl> It would be cute if . were a domain name of an actual server.
05:11:16 <ehird> Glulx is just a vm
05:11:22 <ehird> and so is z-machine
05:11:26 <ehird> it's a full system
05:11:27 <zzo38> Inform 6 or 7? And it compiles to Glulx and Z-machine, which of those is better
05:11:39 <ehird> Glulx is "cooler" but Z-machine is much more commonly implemented
05:11:43 <ehird> glulx never took off afaik
05:11:44 <uorygl> Anyway, I think that in theory, all the root nameservers are mirrors of a.root-servers.net.
05:11:55 <ehird> inform 7 if you can stomach the syntax, it's where most the work goes today
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05:12:01 <uorygl> Since there has to be only one primary authoritative nameserver.
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05:12:40 <uorygl> DNS's email address notation is so cute, you know.
05:13:05 <uorygl> It almost makes you want email addresses to actually be domain names.
05:13:51 <zzo38> I make my own text-adventure game system, too, it is called TAVSYS, see the example http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_10/tavsys_example_1.png
05:14:13 <ehird> Why am I not surprised.
05:14:51 <pikhq> I'm surprised zzo38 doesn't make his own computers.
05:15:08 <pikhq> And core memory. On a loom. Of his own design.
05:15:18 <uorygl> I want to make my own computers. Can I rent a microchip fabrication plant?
05:15:32 <zzo38> I would make my own computers, one day. But not yet, because I need the equipment and stuff I would get from help from someone I know
05:15:36 <uorygl> As in send them a design and get back a microchip.
05:15:57 <ehird> Heck, I'm surprised zzo38 doesn't make his own *physics*.
05:15:57 <zzo38> And I have the similar question(s) like you, too
05:16:18 <zzo38> Physics??? Really?
05:16:27 <oerjan> zzo38: maybe he does, it's just he only communicates through the net so no one notices it's different
05:16:54 <zzo38> I don't only communicate through the net
05:17:13 <zzo38> Making my own computers is something I plan to do soon
05:17:59 * ehird attempts again to install sid via the testing cd
05:18:29 <zzo38> The "G" in the corner is short for "Glk"
05:18:30 <ehird> "It is not possible to install sid from a netinst or full CD. Use the netboot installation method, a businesscard CD image, or floppy images (with the net-driver floppies)."
05:18:35 <ehird> Thank you, Debian-Installer FAQ!
05:19:40 <ehird> http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch04s05.html.en
05:19:44 <ehird> Ookay... noot netboot then...
05:19:47 <ehird> Businesscard image it is.
05:21:37 <zzo38> They say Inform 7 with English sentences make it easier, but I think it actually makes it more confusing, for various reasons, including that you might think it implies something, even though it doesn't imply that
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05:24:56 <uorygl> zzo38: you're not the Loper OS guy, are you?
05:25:32 <zzo38> I don't know what the Loper OS guy is.
05:25:46 <uorygl> He's the guy who writes here: http://www.loper-os.org/
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05:26:01 <uorygl> He rants and says very interesting things.
05:26:23 <uorygl> Kind of like Eliezer Yudkowsky, who fears and writes very interesting things.
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05:36:15 <pikhq> zzo38 is quite a bit saner than the Loper OS guy.
05:36:21 <ehird_> vm.overcommit_memory = 2
05:36:21 <ehird_> vm.overcommit_ratio = 100
05:36:21 <ehird_> I would like to call these two lines the "Not a Turing Machine" Maneuver.
05:36:25 <ehird_> pikhq: Hey, I *like* that guy.
05:36:46 <pikhq> ehird_: He's enjoyable, just somewhat off his rocker.
05:36:58 <pikhq> ... The same is true of most notable mathematicians. :P
05:37:03 <uorygl> I want to be like that.
05:37:12 <ehird_> I don'tt think I've read anything to suggest he's particularly crazy.
05:37:22 <ehird_> Very strong unorthodox opinions, yes...
05:37:22 <pikhq> I might be thinking of someone else.
05:37:33 <ehird_> but I don't think his ambitions are very crazy, just utopian.
05:37:35 <pikhq> For some reason I was thinking of Losethos.
05:37:36 <ehird_> pikhq: Did you mean the Losethos guy?
05:37:48 <ehird_> In that case, I absolutely challenge the "somewhat" part.
05:37:50 <uorygl> Yeah, the Losethos guy is a bit crazy.
05:37:56 <ehird_> This guy never had a rocker, and continually beats up the rockers of everyone else.
05:38:18 <uorygl> Heh heh. "Bill Gates may be richer than Captain Kirk, / but the Windows OS blows! / And sucks! / At the same time!"
05:38:18 <pikhq> Yeah, loper-os is just unorthodox.
05:38:28 <ehird_> "If people think everyone has premarital sex or everyone does drugs, they have no will power to resist. We're gonna have lots of people deciding they're gay.
05:38:28 <ehird_> I don't like gays. I don't want them openly acting gay. It's yucky.
05:38:28 <ehird_> God says... doubted fitter stipend containest instituted Hierius
05:38:28 <ehird_> We're gonna be forced to hire them."
05:38:28 <pikhq> And that's perfectly fine by me.
05:38:29 <ehird_> — Losethos, in a post to reddit. Not a comment, a post. Title: "Gay Marriage".
05:39:20 <ehird_> "God's a child molester.
05:39:20 <ehird_> http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/ezekiel/ezekiel16.htm
05:39:20 <pikhq> The only reason why I don't think Losethos is *completely* freaking crazy is because he appears capable of programming.
05:39:20 <ehird_> Big thoughts forced into puny heads."
05:39:26 <ehird_> Wait... if he's God-obsessed...
05:39:30 <pikhq> Which I assume requires some hold on reality.
05:39:32 <ehird_> And he thinks God is a child molester...
05:39:39 <ehird_> Perhaps this guy is not as harmless as you might think P
05:39:41 <pikhq> (as tenous as it may be)
05:39:45 <soupdragon> since when does ability to program tell you anything about a persons sanity/intelligence?
05:39:52 <ehird_> soupdragon: intelligence it does
05:40:03 <ehird_> if you're completely dissociated from reality you couldn't program
05:40:05 <pikhq> soupdragon: I'm assuming it demands at least a *modicum* of sanity.
05:40:31 <pikhq> I think losethos is as insane as you can be and still program decently.
05:40:43 <ehird_> soupdragon: unless you're going to offer arguments, so be it.
05:40:46 <uorygl> I think it would be possible to teach a dog programming, if you had an eternally young dog.
05:40:59 <ehird_> do you think someone with IQ 1 could program?
05:41:06 <ehird_> yes, I know IQ isn't a measurement of intelligence really
05:41:16 <ehird_> but anyone who scores 1 is either doing it intentionally or is really fucking retarded
05:41:26 <uorygl> ehird_: hey, there's more to discussing than providing argument.
05:41:27 <coppro> or just speaks the wrong language
05:41:40 <ehird_> uorygl: yes, but it's a good step up from assertion
05:41:49 <ehird_> coppro: they're mostly symbol-based, you know
05:42:45 <pikhq> A reputable one is.
05:42:56 * pikhq invokes the True Scotsman fallacy for the win
05:43:02 <ehird_> No IQ test is reputable.
05:43:25 <pikhq> And ehird snatches victory out of pikhq's hands.
05:43:37 <soupdragon> I'm not trying to convince you of something
05:43:55 <pikhq> Random assertions, then? *shrug*
05:44:05 <ehird_> "since when does ability to program tell you anything about a persons sanity/intelligence?" is usually interpreted as the start of some kind of back and forth.
05:44:23 <uorygl> coppro: si hay dos latas, una que contiene cinco galones de agua y una que contiene tres, ¿cómo se mide cuatro galones de agua?
05:44:35 <ehird_> coppro: Si. Si. Si. Uh... si.
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05:44:52 <uorygl> (No, my Spanish is not getting rusty; it's never been better.)
05:45:36 <pikhq> uorygl: Nani? Watasi ha anata no hen na getsugo wo wakaranai, yo.
05:45:46 <zzo38> Which verse of Ezekiel 16 do you mean?
05:45:46 <coppro> uorygl: Fill the five-gallon container, pour three gallons into the three-gallon container, dump the three out, pour the remaining two into the three-gallon container, fill the five-gallon again, pour the last gallon into the three and voila! you have four
05:45:52 <coppro> also, I don't know Spanish
05:45:53 <uorygl> pikhq: by "ha", do you mean "wa"?
05:46:13 <ehird> pikhq: Kanji or GTFO.
05:46:20 <pikhq> uorygl: Yes, I was doing a very very literal transcription of kana.
05:46:20 <pikhq> ehird: I don't have an IME.
05:46:30 <ehird> zzo38: I was just quoting Losethos.
05:46:35 <ehird> God knows what he was thinking in his little mind.
05:46:40 <ehird> pikhq: COPY AND PASTE, FUCKER
05:46:40 <uorygl> Use kanji for every word, including particles.
05:46:51 <ehird> I wish I knew other languages.
05:46:53 <uorygl> pikhq: I have an IME, and I don't even know Japanese.
05:46:54 <zzo38> ehird: Yes, but which verse number?
05:47:01 <pikhq> I'm not about to write kanbun for your sick and twisted pleasure. :P
05:47:04 <ehird> zzo38: I don't know. He did not specify, and I am not telepathic.
05:47:24 <pikhq> (kanbun being Classical Chinese with annotations on how to read it as Japanese)
05:47:29 <uorygl> I'm guessing "watasi" is a pronoun. "Anata" looks familiar. What do those two mean?
05:47:49 <zzo38> I can read/write kana, too, and some words, and some kanji, but I don't have any IME software on my computer
05:47:58 <pikhq> watasi = I, "anata" = you.
05:48:17 <pikhq> The translation is: I don't speak your strange moon-language.
05:48:41 * uorygl arranges that sentence into a Japanese-ish order.
05:49:10 <pikhq> I ha you no strange na moon-language wo understand-not
05:49:17 <uorygl> I your strange moon language not speak.
05:49:41 <uorygl> Neat, it's the order that I guessed, except that the not is a suffix.
05:50:03 <ehird> pikhq: Wait, Japanese is postfix?
05:50:09 <ehird> Mental stacks. Wonderful.
05:50:21 <pikhq> ehird: Somewhat, yes.
05:50:34 <uorygl> Isn't Japanese extremely postfix?
05:50:48 <pikhq> uorygl: Makes the "hen" into an adjective.
05:50:56 <zzo38> Yes, it is postfix in some ways, like, you put verb at the end, for one thing
05:51:21 <ehird> "It's postfix in some ways, like, it's postfix."
05:51:44 <soupdragon> you don't even need to be concious to write programs
05:52:08 <uorygl> Wikipedia says that Japanese is quite strictly left-branching: modifiers tend to precede heads.
05:52:10 <pikhq> "ha" = subject, "no" = possessive, "na" = adjective, "wo" = object...
05:52:43 <uorygl> What sorts of things are "hen" and "getsugo"?
05:53:00 <zzo38> You can search on WWWJDIC.
05:53:09 <pikhq> "hen" is an adjective of Chinese origin, and "getsugo" is a noun.
05:53:17 <zzo38> You need Japanese fonts on your computer to use WWWJDIC
05:53:26 <pikhq> Composed of "moon" (getsu) and "go" (language)
05:53:29 <zzo38> But IME is not required
05:54:07 <uorygl> I hope that Go, the board game, is not named that because that word means "language".
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05:54:22 <ehird> http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/soap/simple
05:54:28 <uorygl> Can "hen" be used without that "na" after it?
05:54:50 <ehird> [05:51] soupdragon: you don't even need to be concious to write programs
05:54:51 <ehird> you need to be conscious to write programs as anything but a spontaneous action
05:55:04 <pikhq> uorygl: The word for go in Japanese is "igo".
05:55:11 <pikhq> And not as an adjective.
05:55:12 <ehird> in which case you could argue that any group of particles in the universe could suddenly spontaneously turn into a program
05:55:21 <ehird> and that would be writing a prograagm
05:55:32 <uorygl> How else can it be used?
05:55:33 <ehird> which is, wossname, ideotic
05:55:36 <pikhq> (it can be combined with other words, though. See the adjective "hentai")
05:56:06 <ehird> Just bring the word "hentai" into a discussion about Japanese. That's utterly surprising and unexpected.
05:56:22 <uorygl> It is in Japanese, I guess.
05:56:44 * ehird looks it up on Wikipedia. Yes.
05:57:00 <ehird> "Graphic hentai representation." —a caption
05:57:06 <ehird> Well, that's one way of wording it, Wikipedia.
05:57:20 <Oranjer> ehird: does not the act of writing require a writer? and does not spontaneous creation require the lack of a creator?
05:57:35 <ehird> Does not your mother require the lack of a creator?
05:57:45 <ehird> She is so hideous, after all.
05:57:57 <zzo38> You can find a lot of Japanese words in WWWJDIC. But, some are still missing. But you can search both kana and kanji, and it will tell you the kana for every word, and examples of Japanese writings, too. And also stroke-orders
05:58:07 <pikhq> Doest thou not know of ehird's particular desire for thy mother?
05:58:19 <Oranjer> I'm saying that the problem seems to reside completely in soupdragon's use of the word "write"
05:58:32 <Oranjer> although, not understanding the context, I have no fucking clue
05:58:45 <ehird> zzo38: What Would Wally Jones Dickinson Ian Conjure?
05:59:23 <ehird> Hey hey, sid installed from scratch.
05:59:27 <ehird> No filthy testing influence here, nosiree.
06:00:34 <uorygl> World-Wide War One Dictionary.
06:00:38 <ehird> And with sudo set up by default, too. Who says Debian don't do none of that thingymagic.
06:01:58 <ehird> Although it adds your username, instead of adding you to the sudo group.
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06:10:13 <zzo38> ehird: I don't know the answer do your question, but that isn't what WWWJDIC is supposed to be short for.
06:10:44 <zzo38> World Wide Web Japan Dictionary
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06:12:40 <pikhq> It's the IC in DICtionary.
06:16:01 * ehird believes that "xorg" is the package to install for x magic on debian
06:16:10 <ehird> as opposed to any more complicated, xorg-involving name.
06:21:18 -!- soupdragon has quit ("* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *").
06:22:32 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_More*_With_Footnotes <- must find
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06:41:28 * ehird makes xdm actually look acceptable
06:45:45 <ehird> http://imgur.com/CKKDi.png ;; ok, admittedly, the actual login window thingy could do with a slightly lighter background
06:45:48 <ehird> but it sure as hell beats http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Xdm_Screenshot.png
06:54:10 <ehird> my mouse produces keyboard events in debian
06:54:33 <ehird> seemingly unpredictably
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06:54:46 <ehird> also, holding down the middle button and dragging seems to select everything aand middle-click-paste it forever
06:55:26 * ehird decides to see if debian would like it better as a usb device
07:03:47 -!- mental_ has joined.
07:09:24 <ehird> ugh, and I am left again with the task of figuring out what file debian wants me to put x resources in
07:10:50 <coppro> to see what your mouse is doing
07:11:10 <coppro> also, I like playing with xev :D
07:17:28 <ehird> erm, what's the proper way to say yes in xresources files
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07:25:40 <ehird> anyone know if there's xfontsel for xft?
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07:52:12 * ehird tries to find out where the hell the x11 cursor themes are
07:52:22 <ehird> when i enter my wm i get an ugly red cursor theme...
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08:09:38 * coppro wants to write a CSS renderer
08:11:09 <ehird> you need a whole layout engine for that
08:11:15 <ehird> a whole rendering engine
08:11:20 <ehird> can't really write just a css renderer...
08:11:25 <ehird> besides, the box model is hell
08:11:32 <coppro> you need a rendering engine for CSS
08:11:45 <ehird> yes, but it's integrally tied to the layout engine
08:11:48 <coppro> but you don't need to implement any markup or anything
08:11:52 <ehird> and really has to be part of it tbh
08:12:03 <ehird> and writing a layout engine is a super-massive-gigantic task
08:12:54 <ehird> #000 on #BBB terminal, dejavu sans mono 10pt
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08:13:03 <ehird> with #888 desktop background
08:13:15 <ehird> (and like 5px #000 window borders from lwm...)
08:13:36 <coppro> It'll go data-from-some-source + CSS -> render
08:14:19 <ehird> 8pt is not soothing unless you have a low dpi screen with the dpi set to 96 or something that isn't really the dpi
08:14:41 <coppro> not 100% sure about the dpi
08:14:47 <ehird> #000 on #BBB is quite close to a book in non-bright lighting conditions
08:15:01 <ehird> coppro: well, css operates on html/xml
08:15:12 <ehird> which both parse to basically the same thing (xml's parse tree being a subset)
08:15:26 <coppro> CSS operates on data of any form
08:15:41 <coppro> it's often used on HTML/XML, but the spec need not be specific to them
08:15:52 <ehird> This document specifies level 1 of the Cascading Style Sheet mechanism (CSS1). CSS1 is a simple style sheet mechanism that allows authors and readers to attach style (e.g. fonts, colors and spacing) to HTML documents
08:16:08 <ehird> This specification defines Cascading Style Sheets, level 2 revision 1 (CSS 2.1). CSS 2.1 is a style sheet language that allows authors and users to attach style (e.g., fonts and spacing) to structured documents (e.g., HTML documents and XML applications). By separating the presentation style of documents from the content of documents, CSS 2.1 simplifies Web authoring and site maintenance.
08:16:15 <ehird> so css level 1 is html only
08:16:19 <ehird> css 2 may say structured documents
08:16:25 <ehird> but the syntax used, really, won't lend itself to anythhing else
08:16:32 <ehird> it totally is html/xml specific
08:16:48 <ehird> well as long as it has the same semantics i guess
08:17:09 <ehird> anyway, if you're calling it a "CSS renderer" that's a really bad name, as it undermines the immense difficulty of a layout engine :P
08:17:39 <coppro> I don't think it's necessarily html/xml-specific. It could be used for JSON, for all CSS cares
08:17:58 <coppro> (granted, there would be a limited subset of usable features, simply because JSON is less powerful)
08:18:20 <ehird> I'd highly recommend structuring it as XMLDoc → Rendered, though
08:18:24 <ehird> simply because everything else reduces to that
08:18:28 <ehird> due to the immense complexity of xml
08:18:43 <ehird> and because xml gives you xhtml, which is very common in practice and so probably should be supported
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08:19:38 <coppro> The input will be through an API, I'm thinking
08:19:44 <coppro> so writing an XML plugin could be done
08:21:25 <ehird> needless complexity if xml is a subset of all the others
08:21:36 <ehird> if you gave the base stuff simple enough names and made the rest optional you wouldn't even have to call it XML
08:21:47 <coppro> Then I don't need to write or use an XML parser
08:21:54 <ehird> you don't here either
08:22:07 <ehird> i'm just saying to use one data structure, and have it be XML's structure
08:22:20 <ehird> then "plugins" simply become render(parseXML(...))
08:22:22 <coppro> The data structure will be binary, though, not text
08:22:26 <ehird> or render(parseJSON(...)) all returning a Doc
08:22:28 <ehird> coppro: it'll be a struct
08:22:36 <ehird> are you unable to comprehend that XML has an internal structure?
08:22:47 <coppro> and CSS does require a hierarchical structure
08:22:57 <coppro> so it's not like it will be all that dissimilar from XML
08:23:01 <ehird> tag = namespace+attributes[name→str]+children[tag]+...
08:23:12 <ehird> that way, for e.g. json, you'd just set tag.name and tag.children
08:23:20 <ehird> but the thing is, "tag" there is xml
08:23:31 <ehird> but i don't see where plugins come into it
08:23:41 <coppro> well, I simply meant it would not be standalone
08:23:45 <ehird> has C++ addled your mind so much that you can't comprehend the idea of a function returning a Doc or whatever?
08:25:10 <coppro> I think it will render to an OpenGL surface
08:25:32 <ehird> coppro: seriously? rendering engine is separate from the actual display
08:25:44 <ehird> for one thing, the layout constantly drastically changes in quite a lot of renderings
08:25:53 <ehird> especially if you're loading the content (not the css) incrementally
08:26:07 <coppro> ehird: What do you recommend I choose as the target data then?
08:26:23 <coppro> an OpenGL surface seems like the LCD
08:26:25 <ehird> well, that's up to you, innit :P I'm no expert in writing t hem, I just know a little about how they work
08:26:41 <ehird> coppro: well, let's put it this way
08:26:43 <ehird> resize a browser window
08:26:47 <ehird> do you think it totally re-renders the page?
08:26:57 <ehird> my functional brain tells me to make it based on fluid constraints
08:27:06 <ehird> elements pushing away from other elements, etc
08:27:12 <coppro> sure, but what's that got to do with OpenGL?
08:27:22 <ehird> because you don't "render to an opengl surface"
08:27:28 <ehird> you render to an abstract data structure, then draw that
08:27:44 <ehird> coppro: btw opengl has problems with the idea of a "pixel"
08:28:11 <coppro> I'll need to look into this I guess
08:28:23 <coppro> (I would anyways, but now I need to look into it more!)
08:28:33 <ehird> coppro: if you come out of this anything other than gibbering I will be astounded.
08:29:17 <ehird> anyone know the proper way to change x11 resolution in this hal day and age
08:29:54 <ehird> no, that's on the fly
08:30:02 <ehird> I mean changing the initial resolution permanently
08:32:16 <ehird> but that's so... obsolete...
08:33:49 * ehird wonders if he can get away with just
08:34:13 <ehird> SubSection "Display"
08:34:27 <coppro> you can get it to generate the current config for you
08:34:32 <ehird> yes, but that stops the hal stuff
08:36:56 <ehird> well that just made x give up
08:38:54 <coppro> oh, you can also put xrandr in your x startup script
08:39:32 <ehird> oh, since i rebooted virtualbox is now just letting me resize the vm to my preferred window size
08:39:37 <ehird> and adjusting the resolution appropriately
08:39:48 <coppro> oh, you installed the extensions
08:40:04 <ehird> yeah, the OSE ones from debian's repository. works with the proprietary version :P
08:40:30 * ehird wonders what browser to stick on this thing
08:41:13 <ehird> firefox is shitty, midori has weird interface quirks, arora had some annoying glitch last time I used it
08:41:57 <ehird> alias sag='sudo apt-get'
08:41:57 <ehird> alias sagi='sudo apt-get install'
08:41:57 <ehird> alias acs='apt-cache search'
08:42:39 * ehird wonders why x11 mouse acceleration sucks so much
08:42:52 <ehird> coppro: has konqueror even switched over to webkit yet
08:43:01 <ehird> or is it still KH"It is 2003"TML
08:43:04 <coppro> haven't used it in ages
08:43:10 <ehird> also, I kinda dislike the whole kitchen-sink thing :P
08:43:15 <ehird> and the mass of KDE dependencies thing
08:43:24 <coppro> I agree in principle but not in practice
08:43:41 <ehird> i've never ever thought "I wish I could just type in a file URL now and start browsing my files"
08:43:51 <coppro> except in Windows where the shell doesn't exist
08:43:55 <coppro> but that doesn't count
08:44:13 <coppro> (practice being the fact that I use KDE, so a mass of KDE dependencies is largely a non-event)
08:46:03 <ehird> wow, andrew cooke packed even more text into his site: http://www.acooke.org/
08:46:09 <ehird> ...and dropped the lowercase fun!
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08:46:30 * coppro feels an urge to link the CSS Zen Garden
08:48:03 <ehird> css zen garden was fun.
08:48:10 <ehird> oh god, arora still has the glitch
08:48:13 <ehird> the maddening begins now
08:48:35 <ehird> i just realised i'm using klingonux
08:50:50 <ehird> http://i.imgur.com/NLThT.png bask in the soothing colours and fonts
08:51:02 <ehird> coppro: arora semi-randomly either underlines or non-underlines underlined links
08:51:12 <coppro> http://createyourproglang.com/ roffffffffl
08:51:14 <ehird> it makes the whole thing feel unstable
08:51:33 <coppro> ehird: is there a bug filed?
08:52:04 <ehird> coppro: rather lame marketinig site, marc-andré cournoyer's little language implementations are cool thouough
08:52:16 <ehird> i mean they're all llvm and stuff, so probably the book has that too
08:52:22 <ehird> coppro: i don't know whether there's a bug filed
08:52:28 <coppro> ehird: it was linked from that acooke guy
08:52:31 <ehird> probably most people can't reproduce it
08:52:38 <ehird> andrew cooke is the one who proved malbolge TC
08:52:45 <ehird> he's the one who did hello world in it
08:52:49 <ehird> mixed up my momentous tasks there
08:52:53 <ehird> http://i.imgur.com/NLThT.png
08:52:55 <coppro> ehird: if you scroll down, it says it does LLVM
08:53:36 <coppro> it's just funny because it looks like Plain English in terms of quality, but clearly the guy actually knows what he's talking about
08:53:59 <ehird> yeah, i think it's aimed at the ruby post-ironic hipstercore market
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08:58:37 <ehird> it's cool how lwm's resize widgets show the size in pixels for everything but terminal windows, where it shows lines/cols
08:58:59 <coppro> Pretty sure KDE can do the same
08:59:09 <ehird> it's still awesome
08:59:12 <coppro> I have it turned off for normal window resizes
08:59:47 <ehird> lwm seems to be a pretty rad window manager
09:00:17 <ehird> minimalist, not-entirely-wacky mouse controls, window hiding (goes to a right-click menu on the root window), and easy program triggering (buttons 1 and 2 on the root window; just 2 by default)
09:00:38 <coppro> huh, there doesn't appear to be a plugin for that. I thought there was.
09:00:49 <coppro> There is a neat effect that highlights areas of the screen that get rerendered
09:01:09 <coppro> so you can see how frequently your application is painting individual areas
09:01:41 <ehird> ugh, i think vbox is telling vm my screen dpi
09:01:45 <ehird> thus weirding everything up
09:01:51 <coppro> it even manages to refrain from counting the mouse movements
09:01:56 <coppro> I should leave it like this; it's trippy
09:02:50 <ehird> did you hear that I'm using xdm and it's not breaking my eyes? pretty astonishing news imo
09:02:53 <ehird> didn't know it was possibble
09:03:15 <coppro> the dm doesn't do very much, really
09:04:04 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Xdm_Screenshot.png
09:04:08 <ehird> this is what xdm normally looks like
09:05:15 <ehird> http://i.imgur.com/CKKDi.png this, but with a lighter background (#AAA) on the actual login window, is what i'm using
09:05:24 <coppro> the problem is obvious. Log in and use startx
09:06:22 <ehird> i want x to start auto after login, no real easy way to do that withotu a dm
09:06:28 <ehird> might as well change the display mode while we're at it
09:06:47 <coppro> put it in your .bashrc?
09:06:55 <ehird> and ruin all shells?
09:07:06 * ehird considers trying chromium
09:07:10 <ehird> but i like my window decorations...
09:07:51 <coppro> no, just make all shells start an X server when you log in!
09:08:15 <coppro> (actually, if you silence the command and run it in the background, it will work fine)
09:08:43 <coppro> startx will fail because :0.0 is already in use, and you're happy
09:09:28 <ehird> do you think an ubuntu repo for chromium will wowrk?
09:09:33 <ehird> eh, i'll install a deb first
09:09:35 <ehird> just to see if i want it
09:10:02 <coppro> ba-ba-ba-bum bum ba-ba-bum
09:10:19 <ehird> i need to sleep soon
09:11:10 <coppro> roughly this time last night
09:11:16 <coppro> sleeping != disconnecting
09:11:29 <coppro> in fact, me being disconnected is usually a good indication I'm not sleeping
09:12:07 <ehird> it's 9am here for me, so that's connfusing
09:12:15 <ehird> all i know is i didn't sleep the whole night
09:12:23 <ehird> and i woke up at like 4pm the day before
09:12:26 <ehird> problematic for brain.
09:22:21 <ehird> Ehh. Chrome would be perfect for this if I could make it use the native GTK theme, except for the main background.
09:26:10 * ehird tries to remember the name of that simple program that did alt+f2 launching
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10:38:31 <ais523> gah, some spammer got around my mental spam filters by writing in first person plural
10:38:40 <ais523> and I read a whole half a sentence before I realised it was spam
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11:41:28 <AnMaster> ais523, merry xmas btw I guess (since I will be away tomorrow)
11:42:04 <AnMaster> (and you will probably be away the day after that?)
11:42:32 <ais523> actually, I'll more likely be here to be with the family than I would be otherwise, I think
11:42:42 <ais523> they'll all be here I suspect, due to not being able to fit everyone anywhere else
11:42:55 <ais523> btw, what day is Christmas in your country?
11:43:00 <ais523> it's 25th here in the UK
11:43:04 <ais523> but apparently 24th in Germany
11:43:05 <AnMaster> ais523, presents are on the 24th
11:43:14 <AnMaster> due to it being the Christmas eve
11:43:24 <ais523> here, they're technically the 26th but everyone but very religious people ignores that
11:43:27 <AnMaster> giving the presents on the Christmas day? What a strange idea
11:43:34 <ais523> and gives on the 25th instead
11:43:50 <AnMaster> ais523, the 25th being the Christmas day or Christmas eve?
11:44:06 <ais523> christmas eve is when half of people traditionally /buy/ the presents
11:44:10 <ais523> due to having left it until the last minute
11:44:16 <ais523> and the shops stay open late and triple their prices
11:44:22 <AnMaster> also there is a simple explanation for it. Work hours rules for Father Christmas :P
11:44:44 <AnMaster> of course in Russia he uses a subcontractor iirc
11:44:54 <AnMaster> St. Nicolaus or something iirc?
11:45:10 <ais523> he's secretly helped by all the dads in the country
11:45:20 <ais523> it's how he manages to get into houses, they unlock the door for him
11:45:31 <ais523> either that, or deliver the presents themselves if he can't route everywhere in time
11:45:39 <ais523> the travelling salesman problem hasn't been solved efficently yet...
11:45:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes, this is related to population growing exponentially, while his capacity growing geometrically
11:46:05 <AnMaster> (that that rule is about food supply is a common misconception)
11:46:54 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't an A* search (or whatever the name was) reasonably efficient for the traveling salesman problem
11:47:02 <AnMaster> oh wait no, that was just route finding
11:47:12 <ais523> A* is decent for route finding if you know both endpoints in advance
11:47:23 <ais523> Dijkstra if you only know one endpoint in advance
11:47:56 <AnMaster> ais523, can't you do some sort of dynamic programming or such to make it reasonably manageable?
11:48:05 <ais523> for NetHack routing you really need an algorithm that works even if you know zero endpoints in advance, and the map is changing meanwhile
11:48:07 <AnMaster> iirc there was some xkcd about it
11:48:19 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, there are algorithms which do good enough for practical uses
11:48:42 <ais523> but if you want /the best/ answer, you can't do it quickly with current maths
11:49:01 <AnMaster> ais523, hm btw can you explain what that thing about NP complete problems being reducible to each other is about?
11:49:19 <AnMaster> is it just the same as you can express it as a variant of the other problem?
11:49:52 <ais523> yes, well with NP-complete problems, the idea is that you can set up one problem in such a way that solving it would be a solution to another as well
11:49:58 <ais523> pretty much like compiling esolangs into each other
11:50:19 <AnMaster> so then if you solved one of them efficiently you could just use that to solve all the other ones?
11:50:37 <AnMaster> or is that only true for some disjunct subsets of the NP complete problems?
11:51:27 <AnMaster> I mean, could you for example use the quantum integer factorization algorithm to solve the travelling salesman problem?
11:52:46 <ais523> NP-complete are all in the same computational complexity class
11:52:58 <ais523> sort-of the same way Turing-complete works
11:53:03 <AnMaster> but does that mean that they can be reduced to each other
11:53:12 <ais523> NP is "below" in the sense that NP-complete can be reduced to NP-complete, or anything else in NP
11:53:27 <AnMaster> and if it did, would that mean that all problems in P were also reducible to each other?
11:53:39 <ais523> no, I don't see why that would be the case
11:53:46 <ais523> it's not the case that all NP is reducible to each other
11:54:01 <ais523> just that all NP-complete is reducible to all NP (including all NP-complete)
11:54:46 <ais523> all P is trivially in NP, by the way
11:54:54 <ais523> the whole P = NP problem is to prove that it's also the other way round
11:55:08 <ais523> (or alternatively show that it isn't)
11:55:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm having trouble parsing "<ais523> just that all NP-complete is reducible to all NP (including all NP-complete)"
11:56:03 <AnMaster> as in, do you mean there is a common "root problem" that all NP complete problems can be reduced to?
11:56:23 <ais523> yes, any NP-complete problem
11:56:58 <ais523> hmm... just like any TC language can implement any program that a turing machine can run
11:57:04 <ais523> that includes other TC languages
11:57:10 <ais523> but also, things like BF-PDA
11:57:26 <ais523> which isn't Turing/complete/, even though you can run it on a Turing machine
11:57:31 <ais523> NP-completeness is much the same
11:57:55 <AnMaster> ais523, so then you could in theory express traveling salesman in terms of integer factorization?
11:57:56 <ais523> if something is in NP, then you can 'emulate' it with any NP-complete problem (as in, a solution to the second is a solution to the first)
11:58:09 <ais523> given that those are both well-known, it's probably already been done
11:58:29 <ais523> well, ordinary integer factorization probably isn't NP-complete
11:58:39 <AnMaster> ais523, and then solve it quickly with Shor's algorithm?
11:58:58 <ais523> AnMaster: integer factorization is in NP, but not known to be NP-complete
11:59:05 <ais523> it's sort-of, dupdog range in our analogy
11:59:22 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dupdog
11:59:55 <ais523> we (as in this channel) think it's probably sub-TC, but are unable to prove it
12:00:01 <ais523> or at least, were last time the subject came up
12:00:36 <AnMaster> ais523, it says unknown computational class for dupdog
12:01:11 <ais523> dupdog's much nastier than slashes
12:01:22 <AnMaster> which I did spend quite a bit of thought about before he decided to try it
12:01:36 <AnMaster> and I didn't come up with any sensible way to do non-trivial loops for example
12:01:39 <ais523> I tried /// once; I failed, but I could see sort-of how to do it and think the issue was just bugs in my compiler, rather than a fundamental failure of the method
12:02:34 <ais523> AnMaster: basically, quining
12:02:35 <AnMaster> hm sensible is not the opposite of insensible is it? And aspell suggests unsensible doesn't exists
12:02:49 <ais523> oppositie of sensible is senseless, or sily
12:03:16 <ais523> neither's an exact opposite; English's weird like that
12:03:22 <AnMaster> and inflammable means something doesn't burn easily. Who said English had to make sense...
12:03:33 <ais523> AnMaster: no, inflammable means it does burn easily
12:03:42 <ais523> flammable also means it does burn easily
12:03:55 <ais523> AnMaster: hmm... stating a blatantly wrong fact then whooshing when people correct you?
12:04:08 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought it was obvious it was sarcasm
12:04:17 <ais523> no, it wasn't obvious, it's a common mistake
12:04:20 <AnMaster> there was an iwc joke about that some time ago, forgot you didn't read it
12:04:35 <ais523> probably only among actual English people, though, foreigners are more likely to look up what a word means
12:04:39 <ais523> whereas the natives just guess
12:05:29 <AnMaster> ais523, btw have you heard about Mike Riley
12:06:09 <AnMaster> ais523, planning to commit suicide, depression. Ehird and me has been working on trying to get him not to do it and trying to contact people who might help
12:06:48 <ais523> you could try contacting the police where he lives
12:07:32 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah, major depressions, getting worse very time,
12:07:46 <AnMaster> ais523, also that is Las Vegas, a bit hard to find him there I imagine
12:08:14 <AnMaster> ais523, underlying cause he said was a "major birth defect" and didn't want to get into more details
12:10:32 <ais523> the issue is, I'm really not sure what to do beyond that
12:10:33 <AnMaster> ais523, but yes, we probably will contact them today. Tried various other ways first. (Why do good samaritans not have email except in a few places, none of them being Nevada...)
12:12:07 <AnMaster> wait that sed expression won't work
12:12:41 <AnMaster> anyway yes police probably is the only way left
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12:29:45 <AnMaster> ais523, I will need your help with formal English in a bit
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13:29:45 <oerjan> <AnMaster> ais523, something for oerjan?
13:29:56 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i've pondered dupdog
13:31:06 <oerjan> <ais523> AnMaster: hmm... stating a blatantly wrong fact then whooshing when people correct you?
13:31:20 <oerjan> clearly the whoosh here consists of runaway flames...
14:03:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw d&d has been timing out for me today. is it down for you too?
14:06:06 <oerjan> i haven't checked, since it's wednesday
14:06:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah I wanted to check the annotation, think I forgot to read it yesterday (the annotation, not the strip)
14:06:41 <oerjan> except i read yesterday's a bit late, this morning, and it was fine
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15:24:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: d&d is loading again
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20:04:19 <ehird> "Two young men caught cycling with no clothes on have escaped charges of offensive behaviour, but received a warning to wear protective headgear."
20:05:02 <ais523> and technically, going around naked is legal just so long as nobody complains
20:05:20 <ehird> where it's illegal
20:06:01 <ehird> 03:44:06 <ais523> christmas eve is when half of people traditionally /buy/ the presents
20:06:01 <ehird> that's worryingly close to where i'm heading...
20:06:22 <ais523> I buy and give the presents at any time at random, more or less
20:06:27 <ais523> when I can think of something worth giving
20:06:37 <ehird> christmas is more trouble than it's worth
20:06:37 <ais523> I have a rather non-traditional approach to that sort of thing....
20:06:58 <ais523> secular christmas confuses me, I think it was invented by shops to sell useless stuff
20:07:06 <ais523> and it lasts far too long nowadays, months in some cases
20:07:53 <lament> why is that confusing?
20:08:10 <ais523> oh, I believe too much in economics
20:08:15 <ais523> as in, I don't get why people buy overpriced stuff
20:08:23 <ehird> re santa: http://www.main.com/~anns/other/humor/physicsofsanta.html
20:08:33 <lament> ais523: you need to make people want to buy your stuff
20:08:48 <lament> ais523: one good way to do that is to change the whole culture to make this stuff more desirable
20:08:49 <ehird> ais523: you buy an overpriced item if there is no suitable alternative
20:08:59 <lament> ais523: which is what happens with christmas
20:09:09 <ais523> ehird: then it arguably isn't overpriced
20:09:44 <ehird> i'm so happy that lwm does clever window placement
20:10:10 <lament> ais523: also, it's not overpriced
20:10:24 <ais523> lament: that's a very vague statement
20:10:28 <ais523> some things are overpriced, some aren't
20:10:31 <ais523> yet people seem to like buying both
20:10:42 <lament> not sure what that has to do with christmas
20:10:51 <lament> you said christmas confused you
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20:11:10 <lament> buying overpriced stuff is completely orthogonal to christmas
20:11:14 <ais523> oh, people seem a lot more inclined to buy useless things at christmas
20:11:16 <lament> christmas is about buying *useless* stuff
20:11:22 <lament> useless, not overpriced
20:11:30 <ais523> useless is overpriced by definition
20:12:03 <ehird> ais523: do you know of any decent non-epiphany webkit browser for linux?
20:12:09 <lament> ais523: i thought "overpriced" meant "above market value"
20:12:11 <ehird> not arora, not midori, not google chrome
20:12:27 <ais523> ehird: no, my browser knowledge is rather small
20:12:37 <ais523> I like the way you describe chrome as non-decent, though
20:12:50 <ehird> I do wish lwm let me raies a window to the top by clickiing on its contents, though, not just the title bar...
20:12:59 <ais523> apparently it installs a cronjob that add's google's deb repo to the repo list (on Ubuntu at least)
20:13:01 <ehird> ais523: no, chrome is alright
20:13:11 <ehird> also, yes, it's rather weird, but the browser itself is fine
20:13:15 <ehird> except for a few things
20:13:34 <ehird> best I've found so far, though
20:13:42 <ais523> what issues do you have with it?
20:14:19 <ehird> well, the update thing doesn't sit well with me of course; i can't use the ubuntu chromium ppa, which I'd prefer to, because I'm on debian (sid)
20:14:35 <ehird> because i have it set to use my WM's window decorations, because I like them,
20:14:44 <ehird> the background of the tab bar looks kinda weird
20:14:50 <ehird> and the tabs are too close to the title bar
20:14:55 <ehird> i could fix this partly
20:15:06 <ehird> if I made the background of the tab bar the colour of my WM's decorations
20:15:12 <ehird> (black focused, grey unfocused)
20:15:20 <ehird> but then I'd expect to be able to focus the window, drag the window, etc by it
20:15:27 <ehird> and besides I can't figure out how to do it
20:15:30 <ehird> ais523: oh, did you know?
20:15:31 <ais523> I'd love to stay and talk longer, we keep missing each other
20:15:34 <ehird> mike riley is going to commit suicide...
20:15:42 <ehird> just remembered to tell you
20:15:44 <ais523> AnMaster told me, and wrote an email to the police
20:16:21 <ehird> ais523: anyway, bye
20:16:33 <ais523> gah, just waiting for CPAN to finish
20:16:42 <ais523> stupid CPAN, I keep forgetting to check for prompts
20:16:50 <ehird> ais523: here, let me give you two screenshots first that you don't care about!
20:18:15 <ehird> ais523: http://i.imgur.com/ELeEq.png believe it or not, this is actually xdm
20:18:32 <ehird> yes, horrible-pseudo-3d-italic-blue-text-with-rubbish-logo-to-the-side-and-the-awful-X11-checkered-background xdm
20:18:37 <ehird> but I tamed the beast!
20:18:43 <ehird> http://i.imgur.com/NLThT.png
20:18:43 <ais523> is the grey pattern on the title bar correct?
20:18:53 <ehird> and this is lwm with a urxvt
20:18:57 <ehird> and sooothing colours and fonts
20:19:07 <ehird> ais523: you mean the gradient on the OS X window?
20:19:17 <ais523> I have fond memories of xdm, anyway
20:19:27 <ehird> what do you mean by "correct"?
20:19:34 <ais523> looking exactly as in Mac OS X
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20:19:40 <ehird> oh, that's my VM window
20:35:11 -!- ehird_ has joined.
20:35:16 <ehird_> Good morning, America!
20:35:34 <ehird_> Good morning, good morning, good morning.
20:35:38 <ehird_> Or something like that, anyway.
20:35:39 -!- ehird_ has left (?).
20:35:43 -!- ehird_ has joined.
20:35:49 -!- ehird_ has left (?).
20:35:56 -!- ehird_ has joined.
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20:39:05 <ehird_> Mike Riley update: he's seeing a therapist
20:40:00 <ehird_> being in here shatters the psyches of even the strongest men
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20:44:09 <Deewiant> ehird_: As in "is now seeing" or "has been seeing"
20:46:10 <ehird_> In other news, /set theme colorless makes irssi nice.
20:46:31 <ehird_> Still wish it somehow integrated with my terminal's scrollbar, but you know, that's just too much to ask for.
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20:55:41 <pikhq> ehird_: How'd you set XDM to look nice, anyways?
20:56:10 <ehird_> Firstly, put "xsetroot -solid rgb:8/8/8" or whatever you want in /etc/X11/xdm/Xsetup.
20:56:34 <ehird_> Then, well, look at Xresources in the same directory.
20:56:53 <ehird_> I set the fonts, changed borderWidth, frameWidith and innerFramesWidth to 0,
20:57:02 <ehird_> shdColor and hiColor to black, background to #AAAAAA (both of them).
20:57:05 <ehird_> And some other tweaks.
20:57:18 <ehird_> Oh, and commented out the lines that add the Debian logo.
20:57:30 <ehird_> And changed greeting to just CLIENTHOST.
20:58:46 <ehird_> pikhq: You still using Conkeror as your browser? I'm <-> this close to surrendering to the Gecko forces... but yeck.
20:59:31 <pikhq> ehird_: Yeah, still using it.
21:01:06 * pikhq wonders if xft: fonts work for this
21:01:26 <ehird_> I have -adobe-helvetica thingies in the font, and yet it uses the vector version.
21:01:27 <pikhq> It looks like, since I've got xft in my USE flags, "yes".
21:01:35 <ehird_> Couldn't tell you why, but clearly it's using Xft for every font.
21:01:41 <ehird_> So I assume an explicit xft: will work.
21:02:20 <ehird_> You know, -*-fixed-bold-*-*-*-15-*-*-*-*-*-*-* isn't such a bad font.
21:02:25 <ehird_> I have it for my titlebars here.
21:02:46 <pikhq> man page agrees...
21:04:02 <ehird_> RESTRICTIONS Xedit is not a replacement to Emacs.
21:05:15 <ehird_> You know, "foo 2>| bar" should work.
21:06:04 <pikhq> Hmm. Just about got it nice.
21:06:24 <ehird_> I can give you my Xresources file if you're a fan of gray and Helvetica.
21:06:26 <pikhq> xdm is capable of *not* looking like shit. :)
21:06:48 <pikhq> Gray and Dejavu Sans for XDM.
21:07:34 <ehird_> http://i.imgur.com/ELeEq.png
21:07:43 <ehird_> I think that _is_ DejaVu Sans.
21:07:49 <ehird_> xdm must be substituting it for Helvetica.
21:07:53 <pikhq> Looks like it, actually.
21:07:57 <ehird_> Guess I should put Sans in directly.
21:08:07 <ehird_> I somehow like the serifs on the hostname.
21:08:11 <ehird_> Breaks the monotony. :P
21:08:51 <ehird_> I wish bash-completion wasn't so darned slow.
21:09:13 <ehird_> Incidentally, I bet sid is stabler than Gentoo. :P
21:10:16 <pikhq> Knowing Debian? Probably.
21:10:32 <ehird_> I installed this system yesterday and there haven't even been any updates!
21:10:32 <pikhq> "We've only tested it for a couple of months! Straight!"
21:11:09 <AnMaster> <ehird_> I wish bash-completion wasn't so darned slow. <-- it isn't?
21:11:19 <AnMaster> well it is first time after boot IME
21:11:33 <ehird_> Sure it is, like .3s delay completing just a lowly filename.
21:11:47 <AnMaster> ehird_, are you running native or in VM?
21:11:56 <ehird_> VM, but on properly virtualising hardware.
21:12:32 <ehird_> 351 megs of ram, 299 free
21:12:39 <ehird_> (that is the -/+ buffers/cache one)
21:12:44 <ehird_> (obviously only 31 megs free in the normal line)
21:14:08 <ehird_> Does anyone know how much stuff supports XDG's where-to-put-dotfiles stuff?
21:14:25 <ehird_> There's a horrible LD_PRELOAD hack that rewrites all writes to ~/.foo to it, too, I think.
21:14:32 <ehird_> But that's a bit too cowboy for my liking.
21:15:15 <ehird> Ugh, my control key has become stuck in the VM again.
21:15:40 <ehird> Did you know that urxvt has menus?
21:15:55 -!- ehird_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:16:11 <ehird> And xterm has a ton of menus, but that's widely-known.
21:16:19 <ehird> But urxvt's include "evaluate Perl expression".
21:16:47 <ehird> Ah. It seems urxvt's menus do not agree with my WM.
21:18:29 <ehird> You know, stock Debian sid boots quite quickly.
21:19:45 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:20:24 <soupdragon> More recently, Gregory J. Chaitin of IBM has found arithmetic propositions whose truth can never be established by following any deductive rules.
21:20:53 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:22:08 <pikhq> And apparently the urxvt menus don't agree with *anything* X related.
21:22:25 <ehird> Should have done it in an Xnest
21:22:46 <ehird> Gah, Debian. Why will you not give me lovely upgrades?
21:24:42 * ehird tries out conkeror
21:27:02 <ehird> Conkeror review: "Meh."
21:27:36 * ehird decides to try trimming down iceweasel
21:37:15 <pikhq> It's the least annoying interface I've found, but the Gecko bit is t3h suck.
21:42:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Because all the other browsers suck more.
21:42:30 <ehird> pikhq: do you know a lightweight program that handles Alt-F2 program<enter> launching? I found one once but have forgotten it
21:43:02 <pikhq> That's a part of Ratpoison, you see...
21:45:10 <ehird> Deewiant: No, it was literally: input box, runs it in a shell
21:45:25 <ehird> dmenu has completion and stuff, which I don't need.
21:45:39 <ehird> And I want something in the middle of the screen; this was.
21:45:50 <ehird> It wasn't anything well-known, I don't think. Which is why this is probably hopeless.
21:47:03 <ehird> "Ratpoison? But that's SINFUL!"
21:47:48 <ehird> Ratpoison is designed for a certain workload.
21:48:05 <ehird> That workload consists of Emacs, one or two unrelated terminals, and a browser.
21:48:20 <ehird> And a screen that isn't too big (because otherwise everything will be in the corners.)
21:48:35 <ehird> Given those, since they won't interact much, ratpoison is probably close to the most optimal window manager.
21:48:52 <ehird> Heck, Emacs' buffer management is strikingly similar to Ratpoison.
21:51:02 <ehird> So, I figured out why my X11 cursor is red.
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21:52:15 <pikhq> My workload consists of a terminal, a browser, and possibly a virtual machine or two.
21:52:24 <pikhq> For that, Ratpoison is just about optimal.
21:52:39 <ehird> Gtk's Mist style is pooping on my grey colour scheme party.
21:52:45 <ehird> I guess I should tweak it to behave.
21:52:51 <pikhq> I would *not* want to use it for heavier workloads.
21:53:09 <ehird> (lwm is pooping on my I-like-clicking-on-window-contents-to-raise party, too)
21:55:01 <ehird> Is it actually possible to disable xpdf's ugly menus?
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21:58:57 <pikhq> Better question, though: is it possible to make Motif not ugly?
21:59:08 <ehird> Yes. Want a page that shows you how?
21:59:30 <pikhq> ... I may start using Motif programs. XD
21:59:33 <ehird> http://www.nedit.org/technotes/looks-1.php
21:59:38 <ehird> http://www.nedit.org/technotes/looks-before.gif
21:59:41 <ehird> http://www.nedit.org/technotes/looks-after.gif
22:00:03 <ehird> The issue is that usually, Motif programs have a bad interface beyond the looks :P
22:01:11 <pikhq> Only so much that can be done with 20 year old programs. :P
22:01:58 <ehird> For xpdf, I'd remove the page navigation buttons (useless, I have a scrollbar for that).
22:02:07 <ehird> I don't need the print or the help buttons either, but I can live with those.
22:02:15 <ehird> The zoom and search items are probably good.
22:02:18 -!- ehird_ has joined.
22:02:40 <pikhq> Also, the icons are fugly.
22:02:51 <pikhq> Could probably be fixed just by making them vector icons, though.
22:02:59 <ehird> Yeah, no biggie though imo.
22:03:17 <ehird> Also, I'm not sure how to adapt that nedit page to non-edit programs; it uses "nedit" as the resource. What's it inherited from? Motif?
22:03:42 <ehird> Also, what's the difference between foo*bar and foo.bar? I forget.
22:06:18 <ehird> http://toastytech.com/guis/win7101apps.png
22:06:18 <ehird> Windows 7: the best platform to run your Windows 1.01 programs.
22:07:08 <ehird> Grr; I may just patch lwm to let me raise a window by clicking inside it.
22:07:14 <ehird> I think it's non-reparenting; that's likely to be the problem.
22:09:21 <ehird> Yeah, I'm totally tempted to switch to Debian sid.
22:10:38 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://toastytech.com/guis/win7101apps.png <-- that old calculator renders incorrectly it seems
22:10:56 <ehird> It was probably like that in Windows 1; not exactly the most polished OS.
22:11:15 <AnMaster> the text going out of the button
22:11:15 <ehird> Take a look at the menus in the Windows 1 programs.
22:11:19 <ehird> It's even retaining the non-antialiasedness.
22:11:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, that's what I meant.
22:11:41 <pikhq> That's pretty close to the Windows 1 rendering, yes...
22:11:47 <ehird> http://gallery.techarena.in/data/516/Windows_1_01_Calculator.png
22:11:55 <ehird> Just an aspect ratio vs font issue.
22:12:15 <ehird> Obviously the old Windows 1 font doesn't exist any more, and the old Windows 1 resolutions weren't the same aspect ratio.
22:12:22 <ehird> So it substitutes the font, which overflows.
22:12:30 <ehird> And it looks stretched in the Windows 1 rendering because of the res.
22:15:13 <ehird> pikhq: any luck with those motif adjustments?
22:15:34 <pikhq> ehird: Not been futzing with them.
22:15:51 <pikhq> Too busy trying not to scream at VMware Server.
22:16:28 <AnMaster> ehird_, wait, that looks like non-square pixels somewhere?
22:16:33 <pikhq> It appears to believe that the proper response to asking it to launch a VM is: chown -R root:root virtual_machine;chmod 660 virtual_machine
22:17:22 <AnMaster> ehird_, huh? What soft of monitor was that?
22:17:48 <ehird_> STOP FUCKING CREATING ~/DESKTOP!!!!
22:17:55 <ehird_> I don't HAVE a bloody desktop!
22:19:20 <pikhq> Don't you love how programs make stupid assumptions?
22:19:50 <pikhq> Like "Yes, I would *love* to have a ~/Desktop", or "Yes, I would *love* to have files in ~ be owned by root".
22:20:04 <ehird_> AnMaster: I'm pretty sure ~/Desktop is a default for some magic XDE "DESKTOPLOCATION" variable that I refuse to set.
22:20:17 <ehird_> "It's STANDARD. It's not like ~ is really *yours* or anything."
22:20:21 <ehird_> "Fuck you, user. Fuck you."
22:20:36 <ehird_> AnMaster: because I have no bloody desktop, and I don't bow to the authority of XDG to tell me that I do.
22:21:03 <AnMaster> ehird_, also that is trying to be noob-friendly. computer illiterates expecting files to download to desktop and such
22:21:28 <ehird_> if (File.exists("~/Desktop")) {
22:21:37 <ehird_> defaults.download_location = "~/Desktop";
22:21:45 <ehird_> defaults.download_location = "~/";
22:21:52 <AnMaster> ehird_, ubuntu renames it to Skrivbord on Swedish systems
22:22:02 <ehird_> So? If the variable is set, use it.
22:22:21 <AnMaster> ehird_, your solution fails at i18n just. You need to use said variable in place of "~/Desktop"
22:22:27 <ehird_> But you do _not_ create non-dot directories in ~ that aren't vital to your program's function and desired by the user.
22:22:32 <ehird_> AnMaster: IT'S PSEUDOCODE, FFS!
22:22:38 <ehird_> It doesn't HAVE to work.
22:30:51 -!- ehird_ has quit ("leaving").
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22:31:53 <ehird_> Anyone know how to configure Xpdf's defaults? Doesn't seem to be anything on the website about it. I'll check the man page.
22:34:24 <ehird_> Anyway, the reason my cursor is red is because lwm sets it to be when you're over window decorations or the root window -- presumably so that you know when you're in lwm land and (assuming you're not over a window decoration) can spawn programs with buttons 1 and 2.
22:40:18 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:44:38 <ehird_> Gregor: You know things about Debian, right?
22:47:11 * Sgeo turned a popular Metaplace world into an Orgy world
22:47:15 -!- Halph has joined.
22:48:01 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:48:10 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro.
22:50:45 <ehird_> coppro: oi, you use debian don't you
22:51:53 <ehird_> "Postoffice accepts (and ignores) many of the same command line options that are passed to sendmail"
22:53:55 <fizzie> That is a popular thing to do; sSMTP accepts and ignores a whole lot of Sendmail options too.
22:54:06 <ehird_> Yes; I just found the wording funny.
22:54:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Quitter!").
22:54:21 <ehird_> Accepting an option sort of tends to imply more than ignoring it to me.
22:54:28 <ehird_> fizzie: Hey, you use Debian! I know this.
22:54:47 <fizzie> It also sounds (to me, anyway) a bit like it implies sendmail ignores those options too.
22:54:55 <ehird_> fizzie: I installed xpdf which brought in some URW font thingies for X11 for its rendering pleasure; but this has caused defoma (you know, the Debian font manager doohickey) to decide that sans and related aliases should point to them.
22:55:00 <ehird_> Thusly my fonts are ugly and I am sad.
22:55:07 <ehird_> Why has it done such a horrible thing to my life?
22:55:28 <fizzie> It is possible that it hates you and hopes you die, but that's only a possibility.
22:55:53 <ehird_> Is there a button and/or buttons I can press that will make it stop hating me hoping I will die?
22:57:03 <fizzie> I don't really know; my approach to font-configuration is something you could classify as "agressively ignorant".
22:57:33 <ehird_> Well, everything *was* just working; I can't fathom why Debian thinks URW ported-to-X11 fonts are a better choice for sans and friends than the DejaVu fonts.
22:57:42 <ehird_> I guess I'll just uninstall xpdf and use some other reader, as a dumb fix.
22:58:26 <pikhq> Why in the world would one want a non-xft font for Sans?
22:58:27 <ehird_> This all-gray-and-black colour scheme I've got going on reminds me of greyscale NeXTStep machines.
22:58:32 <ehird_> pikhq: Oh, it's Xft, I believe.
22:58:35 <ehird_> At least, it antialiases.
22:58:40 <ehird_> See, they're conversions.
22:58:46 <ehird_> So that Xpdf can use fonts that look like the rest of the system.
22:58:49 <pikhq> Okay, so not as awful as is possible.
22:59:00 <ehird_> A noble goal, sure, but as a candidate for default fonthood?
22:59:27 <fizzie> Is it tht gsfonts-x11 thing?
23:00:02 <fizzie> It's a "recommends"-class dependency, so you might be able to fix it by uninstalling that, if you can live without it.
23:00:16 <ehird_> Right, but apparently it improves Xpdf's font display immensely.
23:00:21 <ehird_> So I'll just use another reader. No biggie.
23:01:25 <ehird_> It'd be nice if terminals had a quick-use command "<cmd> prog arg ..." that opened a new terminal running that.
23:01:33 <ehird_> Like tc, for terminal command.
23:01:42 <ehird_> $ xrdb - # oops, I forgot the option ^C
23:02:00 <ehird_> (It'd return immediately after spawning the terminal.)
23:04:16 <ehird_> Hooray; things are good once more. Now I need a pdf reader.
23:05:22 <ehird_> http://pdftohtml.sourceforge.net/ The example output of this thing is impressive; maybe I should use it as a PDF reader.
23:06:06 <lament> it sounds like xkcd so it must be bad
23:06:11 <fizzie> Well, uh... this is all just guesswork, but at least I have a /etc/fonts/conf.d/60-latin.conf (put there by the fontconfig-config package) that specifies a rather random-looking "prefer" list for serif/sans/monospace. Of course it's very much possible something overridizes it somewhere.
23:06:25 <ehird_> lament: Xresources is an okay system. :P
23:06:31 <ehird_> fizzie: That's generated by defoma, I think.
23:06:39 <ehird_> Or, at least, /etc/fonts/conf.d/??-defoma.conf is.
23:06:51 <fizzie> Yes, I do have that autogenerated 30-defoma.conf too.
23:06:59 <ehird_> So I'd *suspect*, though I'm not sure, that it generates the files in that directory from things elsewhere.
23:07:05 <ehird_> Otherwise, that'd just be weird.
23:07:27 <pikhq> ehird_: tc(){nohup urxvt -e "$@" &}
23:07:41 <fizzie> 60-latin.conf is one of the "static" files in the fontconfig-config package, as far as I can figure out.
23:07:45 <ehird_> nohup is crap because it makes nohup.out and stuff.
23:08:00 <ehird_> tc() { urxvt -e "$@" & disown }
23:08:19 <pikhq> Or just >/dev/null. :P
23:08:32 <ehird_> Yes, but disown is *meant* for that.
23:08:54 <ehird_> Anyway, unfortunately tc is forced to be suboptimal: "tc ls" should stay open even after ls returns, but "tc man ls" shouldn't.
23:09:06 <ehird_> Two separate commands would just be unneccessary mental overhead, though.
23:09:12 <fizzie> On the other hand, in 30-defoma.conf I end up with LMSans10-Regular and LMRoman10-Regular fonts (the Latin Modern set, which is a Computer Modern extension) as sans and serif, respectively. I'm not so sure that's very sensible; but on the other hand I don't think my Sans looks like that either.
23:09:29 <pikhq> That's pretty much a bug in Unix semantics.
23:09:42 <pikhq> Probably quite reasonable to do in Plan 9.
23:09:47 <ehird_> pikhq: Correction -- pretty much a bug in ncurses semantics.
23:09:56 <ehird_> In Plan 9, there's nothing like "man".
23:10:04 <ehird_> It'd just stay open after any command.
23:10:19 <ehird_> Well, you could pass it to the pager, but then it'd just stay after you go past the last line.
23:10:28 <ehird_> (The pager doesn't use ncurses-style stuff in Plan 9.)
23:10:31 <pikhq> The Unix semantic in question is "always close after the program exits".
23:10:46 <ehird_> But not closing after it exits would break modern man(1)s.
23:10:50 <ehird_> Because they're crap. :P
23:11:34 <ehird_> It's annoying that even GNU sleep doesn't have a "forever" option.
23:12:27 <pikhq> I'm surprised GNU sleep isn't at least as bloated as GNU hello.
23:12:38 <ehird_> "while true; sleep 1000d; done" does it.
23:13:42 <ehird_> urxvt -e "sh -c '$@; while true; do sleep 1000d; done'" &
23:14:09 <ehird_> pikhq: "Can you tell what it is yet?"
23:15:52 <ehird_> Whatever, I'll just not use this for things like ls.
23:16:15 <ehird_> You can easily run "ls" in your current terminal without disrupting things.
23:16:17 <ehird_> Ooh, if I do "tc irssi" it gets the title irssi.
23:16:28 <ehird_> I think I'll make tc a shell script, not a function.
23:20:52 <ehird_> "You are correct and I apologise. Your last project was actually both commercially viable and original. Unfortunately the part that was commercially viable was not original, and the part that was original was not commercially viable."
23:26:36 <ehird_> I think I need to improve my accuracy with a mouse.
23:27:46 <ehird_> By the way, if any Firefox users want typing a query in the address bar to search Google instead of I'm Feeling Lucky, and thus remove the need for the search box, set keyword.URL to:
23:27:53 <ehird_> http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&q=
23:34:00 <ehird_> Oh, fuck; and the system gets told about the DPI again and thusly fucks up.
23:37:02 <ehird_> coppro: Die, foul demon of non-rolling release and... and GNOME and... SHUTTLEWORTH
23:37:21 <ehird_> Time to reboot, anyway.
23:37:26 <ehird_> To fix the fucking DPI fucking fuckshit fucking fucker.
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23:39:22 <coppro> ehird_: Guess what fun I discovered today
23:39:40 <coppro> CSS Level 3 has a 3D transforms module - joy!
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23:41:31 <ehird_> Why don't terminals execute ~/.profile by default?
23:41:41 <ehird_> I mean, for a desktop machine, that means that ~/.profile is basically "console rc".
23:41:48 <ehird_> Which is dumbfuck retarded.
23:42:04 <ehird_> So what am I meant to do? Put things in bashrc? So only bash reads them?
23:43:35 <coppro> I think you're supposed to put ". .profile" in your .bash_profile
23:44:43 <ehird_> dash is your sh because dash is leaner and stuff and /bin/sh only has to be a POSIX sh, not bash
23:44:55 <ehird_> also, I have no .bash_profile.
23:45:07 <ehird_> And loading .bash_profile but not .profile? /etc/profile too? THE SYSTEM IS FUCKED UP
23:45:14 <ehird_> coppro: Or, I could just put . .profile in my bashrc.
23:45:30 <coppro> ehird_: True, you could! But that would be different behavior!!1!!11
23:45:41 <ehird_> But more pertinently: why don't terminals default to login shells?
23:45:59 <ehird_> In fact, why doesn't some distro completely abolish all the rc madness and just make there be one file?
23:46:07 <pikhq> Because "zomg it wasn't spawned by login(1)".
23:46:12 <ehird_> (You could make all of them be loaded in all cases, so people don't have to know which one to create.)
23:46:19 <coppro> because they won't all parse on every shell
23:46:24 <coppro> and knowing which one to create is easy
23:46:33 <ehird_> coppro: dude, you can test for shell
23:46:39 <pikhq> coppro: profile should parse on all Bourne shells.
23:46:47 <coppro> but what if you use csh?
23:46:57 <ehird_> uhh, csh doesn't load .profile afaik
23:46:58 <pikhq> csh never loads profile.
23:47:10 <coppro> but ehird_ wants one for every shell ever
23:47:11 <pikhq> I think it loads profile.csh
23:48:15 <ehird_> Anyway, it simply makes no sense:
23:48:21 <ehird_> # set PATH so it includes user's private bin if it exists
23:48:21 <ehird_> if [ -d "$HOME/bin" ] ; then
23:48:21 <ehird_> PATH="$HOME/bin:$PATH"
23:48:27 <ehird_> In Debian, this snippet is found in .profile.
23:48:32 <ehird_> Now: Why would you possibly want that?
23:48:38 <ehird_> WHO would expect consoles to be able to access ~/bin stuff but not terminals?
23:48:46 <ehird_> Why would this be desired default behaviour?
23:49:03 <coppro> As I said, finding the correct shell is easy: man $(egrep $(whoami) /etc/passwd | egrep -o "[^/:]+$")
23:49:06 <ehird_> It's idiotic to have such automagic behaviour if it NEVER RUNS for the usage you'd most want it in.
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00:11:03 <soupdragon> Christmas doesn't exist, that's ridiculous
00:11:33 <soupdragon> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gGopKNPqVk
00:11:48 <soupdragon> the nice thing about the internet, is that it's christmas all the time
00:12:01 <pikhq> ehird_: Happy Christmas Eve Eve.
00:12:19 <ehird_> No Flash, and not even any sound on this system. :P
00:12:26 <ehird_> (Was originally evaluating sid for server use.)
00:12:47 <soupdragon> I fixed up youtube so that it doesn't use flash
00:12:53 <ehird_> ClickToFlash does that.
00:13:01 <ehird_> But I haven't set anything up in this VM.
00:13:37 -!- jpc has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
00:14:45 <ehird_> Does anyone know how to override colours in .gtkrc-2.0?
00:15:40 -!- jpc has joined.
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00:38:16 <ehird_> Does anyone know if it would be feasible to create an LD_PRELOA
00:38:54 <pikhq> LD_PRELOAD library? Feasible, but painful as all hell.
00:39:10 <ehird_> D doohickey, that wraps the X11 bitmap font libraries, and -
00:39:27 <ehird_> if you try to load a font starting with xft: - creates a bitmap font backed by xft
00:39:35 <ehird_> getglyph() or whatever would render "the char" with xft
00:39:43 <ehird_> blit("abc") would do the obvious
00:39:53 <ehird_> in fact, you could even put it in the normal font syntax
00:40:01 <ehird_> -xft-Sans-10-*-*-(...)
00:40:26 <ehird_> that way, oldschool and minimalist tools can simply either be linked with the relevant library or LD_PRELOADed with it, and voila
00:40:38 <ehird_> pikhq: LD_PRELOAD libraries are pretty easy actually
00:40:55 <ehird_> they're just like a regular library, except if you want to call the function you're replacing (i.e. wrap it), you just have to dlopen/dlsym to get the original function
00:41:45 <pikhq> Anyways: Uh, I at least *think* the X11 bitmap font stuff is serverside.
00:42:00 <ehird_> Well, okay. Same difference and whatnot.
00:42:04 <ehird_> You get the basic idea.
00:43:03 <ehird_> For instance, I could make my window manager (lwm) use Xft fonts for the title bars and the hidden window list.
00:43:15 <pikhq> LD_PRELOAD won't help. Rebuilding the server, though...
00:43:20 <ehird_> And who doesn't want xedit with pretty fonts?!?!?!
00:43:24 <ehird_> pikhq: LD_PRELOAD on the server, duh.
00:43:33 <ehird_> (LD_PRELOAD: "Because I'm too fucking lazy to fight against my distro."(TM))
00:43:46 <pikhq> ... LD_PRELOAD can only replace dynamically linked symbols.
00:43:59 <ehird_> pikhq: Some of the server is in a library, yah?
00:44:04 <ehird_> Presumably at least the font stuff it calls is.
00:44:50 <pikhq> Hmm. So it is. /usr/lib/libXfont.so.1
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00:45:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:45:28 <ehird_> The problem with coercing Xorg out of its traditional /usr/X11R6 home is that the rest of the system gets to deal with its rampant pollution of every filesystem resource it can access. :P
00:45:36 <ehird_> I mean, seriously. Waay too many files.
00:46:03 <pikhq> Yeah, X is a freaking behemoth.
00:47:00 <ehird_> Python subreddit header: "(birthday cake icon) Python (10K!)".
00:47:08 <ehird_> Those seven versions sure flew by quickly.
00:48:15 <ehird_> Filesystem idea: rimshotfs. It serves a single file; accessing it in any way causes a rimshot sound to be played. The contents of the file is always "Ba-dum, TISH!".
00:52:06 <ehird_> Debian's xclock is fun.
00:52:17 <ehird_> It does Xft, antialiasing, colours (with blending between multiple colours for the hands crossing), etc.
00:52:43 <pikhq> Oh, the one that's been used as a testbed for everything. :)
00:53:15 <pikhq> There's also an option for it to have a circular window with an antialiased border, and the window itself being translucent, IIRC.
00:53:24 <ehird_> -chime This option indicates that the clock should chime once on the
00:53:25 <ehird_> half hour and twice on the hour.
00:53:59 <ehird_> http://twitter.com/Big_ben_clock
00:54:36 <ehird_> Specify the pattern for the font to be used for the digital
00:54:36 <ehird_> clock when Xrender is used. Patterns are specified using the
00:54:36 <ehird_> fontconfig face format described in the Font Names section of
00:55:13 -!- coppro has joined.
00:55:43 <ehird_> Xclock believes the system clock.
00:55:48 -!- jpc has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
00:55:54 <ehird_> pikhq: you know, this thing is a few steps away from reading mail.
00:56:15 <pikhq> It's been used for testing every single X11 feature added in the past 4 or 5 years.
00:56:19 <ehird_> And yet it still lacks an option for "don't draw a window border in -digital mode."
00:56:28 <ehird_> (i.e. I want a clock in the corner of my screen, dammit!)
00:56:45 <pikhq> The Xest of clocks!
00:56:48 <ehird_> Just read its man page.
00:57:09 * pikhq wonders if anyone's ever tried rewriting Xt to use nicer-looking widgets
00:57:21 <pikhq> Thereby making all the old X11 programs look nicer.
00:57:37 <ehird_> they're too pixelly. it'd fuck things up
00:57:45 <ehird_> besides, even xedit(1) has gradients nowadays
00:57:52 <coppro> Hmm... can you make it display the redundant clock?
00:57:53 <ehird_> which leaves... xman? and xman is a crock of shit
00:58:03 <pikhq> Xman doesn't use Xt.
00:58:30 <pikhq> Xt offers the Motif-y widgets, IIRC.
00:58:41 <coppro> http://pleaseenjoy.com/project.php?cat=1&subcat=&pid=18&navpoint=16
00:58:45 <ehird_> honestly, most of the programs it'd help are shit anyway
00:59:00 <ehird_> You mean... Motif isn't the culprit?
00:59:32 <ehird_> coppro: would be 10x better if the surrounding depictions were reflections of the actual clock
00:59:40 <ehird_> and they had surrounding ones too
00:59:45 <coppro> also, rofl http://pleaseenjoy.com/project.php?cat=1&subcat=&pid=67&navpoint=19
01:01:15 <coppro> by the way, ehird_, if you can remember our discussion way back when about intellectual property law, I've realized there is an addendum I want to add. There is no justification whatsoever that two independent inventors of the same thing do not share ownership of the invention.
01:01:48 <ehird_> Surely that is an argument *against* patents?
01:01:59 <ehird_> Patents discourage original thought if it leads to the same conclusion.
01:02:22 <coppro> It is an argument against the current system.
01:02:22 <pikhq> Patents also discourage building on previous thought.
01:02:32 <coppro> I just wanted to clarify my stance
01:02:48 <ehird_> The whole definition of parents is that if you invent something first, other people have to pay you to use that invention.
01:03:43 <ehird_> You say you support patents, but from what I can tell you support a subset of things you believe they result in, and define your position as "reform it so that only those things happen". But I don't think that's possible; you oppose the very underpinning of patents.
01:04:19 <pikhq> What, exactly, *does* he want?
01:04:23 <coppro> I never said I supported the current system as being a stellar exampl of intellectual property law
01:04:37 <ehird_> pikhq: I tried evaluating that, but the thunk diverged.
01:04:57 <pikhq> coppro: You seem opposed to the very notion.
01:05:01 <ehird_> But your "reformed patents" are a contradiction in terms: you want patents without the very underpinning of patents, so that you can get only the results you see as positive.
01:05:02 <pikhq> And don't realise it.
01:05:06 <ehird_> You simply can't have that.
01:05:25 <coppro> ehird_: As far as patents go, pretty much
01:05:28 <ehird_> It's like saying "let's reform petrol engines so they don't produce CO2."
01:05:34 <pikhq> (please, explain how my uninformed opinion about your opinion is wrong. I'd like to actually discuss something.)
01:05:36 <coppro> I want decent IP, not patents
01:05:40 <ehird_> Great! Let's just remove the little block labelled "CO2 generator".
01:05:44 <pikhq> ehird_: Oh, that's certainly possible.
01:05:56 <ehird_> But not by that method.
01:06:00 <ehird_> And it'd have side-effects in the design.
01:06:04 <pikhq> I call it "reformation via axe."
01:06:13 <coppro> copyright, for example, allows for independent creation
01:06:30 <pikhq> coppro: It doesn't allow for standing on the shoulders of giants, however.
01:06:35 <ehird_> I'd like to add that all arguments about IP are purely academic: it is dead, whatever the law says. Piracy is here, it isn't going away, and it's reached critical mass.
01:06:46 <ehird_> We can argue about whether it *should* be like that, but like it or not, IP is dead.
01:06:53 <pikhq> Nor does it account for the fact that data is infinitely copiable.
01:07:09 <coppro> It does not account for the fact that data is infinitely copiable at all
01:07:15 <pikhq> Excuse me, I just violated copyright law 1,000 times.
01:07:29 <coppro> but piracy doesn't even apply to two of the major three forms of intellectual properly
01:07:36 <ehird_> 01:06 < pikhq> Nor does it account for the fact that data is infinitely
01:07:36 <ehird_> 01:06 < coppro> It does not account for the fact that data is infinitely
01:07:44 <ehird_> coppro: you just infringed on pikhq's copyright, you bastard
01:07:48 <ehird_> his intellectual rights are infringed.
01:08:10 * coppro ignores the last 6 lines
01:08:10 <pikhq> To have an "intellectual property" law is to suggest that the following is not possible: for i in {1..1000000000000};do cp foo foo.$i;done
01:08:22 <coppro> pikhq: What about patents and trademarks?
01:08:37 <ehird_> i would not class trademarks as strictly ip
01:08:40 <coppro> Both of those actually rely on the assumption that copying is simple
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01:08:47 <pikhq> Patents, too, are flawed, but for an entirely different reason.
01:08:48 <ehird_> they seem more about usage
01:09:01 <coppro> I don't disagree with that
01:09:24 <pikhq> That reason is this: limiting the use of other inventions causes more harm than the lack of incentive to publish does.
01:09:39 <pikhq> And trademarks? Honestly, trademark law is actually just fine.
01:09:59 <ehird_> pikhq: btw i debated these issues at great length and scope with coppro using basically identical arguments for hours; good luck :P
01:10:23 <coppro> pikhq: I agree in practice but I disagree in principle
01:10:35 <ehird_> coppro: you mixed those two up
01:10:46 <pikhq> coppro: ... I am sure you mixed those two up.
01:11:13 <coppro> limiting the use of other inventions causes more harm than the lack of incentive to publish does <-- as far as the existing law goes, I agree
01:11:35 <pikhq> ... That's not something about the specific details of the law.
01:11:47 <ehird_> pikhq: btw you're unlikely to get an answer out of coppro about what his proposed fix to the law is...
01:11:48 <pikhq> That's a disagreement of the ENTIRE PREMISE of patent law.
01:12:06 <pikhq> "By pretending it's 1970, it works!"
01:12:38 <coppro> pikhq: There's the thing; if you limit the term of patents to something more reasonable, then the harm/good ratio balances out
01:12:49 <ehird_> interesting factoid: before 1923, music didn't exist
01:12:56 <ehird_> thank god for copyright's stimulation of creativity
01:13:17 <pikhq> Uh, what do you think is a more reasonable term?
01:13:47 <pikhq> (if you say anything longer than a few months, I'm going to think you're not even on the same planet. :P)
01:14:32 <coppro> pikhq: I can't answer that question with certainty, but I would say that two years would be the upper bound; something just under a year is most likely optimal
01:15:00 <pikhq> coppro: Still causes more harm.
01:15:19 <ehird_> i should pirate something while you're having this discussion, just to add some practical scientific data to who's winning
01:15:42 <coppro> pikhq: What's the basis for saying that?
01:15:44 <pikhq> A patent, you see, is an incomprehensible mass of words, rather than documentation to build on.
01:16:10 <pikhq> Though current law goes out of its way to make sure this is so, this is inherent in the idea of patents.
01:16:25 <pikhq> You see, there is an incentive to make the patent not easily understood.
01:16:37 <ehird_> the problem with patents is that it assumes thinking of a way to do something is creating that method in concept-space
01:16:41 <coppro> that's a flaw with the patent office, not with thelaw
01:16:42 <pikhq> It prevents competition for a bit longer.
01:16:45 <ehird_> it isn't; we merely find it with our thinking
01:16:56 <pikhq> No, that's a flaw with the very concept.
01:17:00 <ehird_> well, okay, that's just one, massively theoretical objection
01:17:02 <coppro> A patent application "set out clearly the various steps in a process, or the method of constructing, making, compounding or using a machine, manufacture or composition of matter, in such full, clear, concise and exact terms as to enable any person skilled in the art or science to which it pertains, or with which it is most closely connected, to make, construct, compound or use it;"
01:17:24 <pikhq> The very *concept* has an incentive to be as non-understandable as possible.
01:17:25 <ehird_> coppro: And the constitution of the United States of America says that George Bush couldn't have done so many things he did, too.
01:17:33 <ehird_> And... that... stopped him.
01:17:53 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, that is the exact phrasing of the law and what the patent office strives to do.
01:18:15 <ehird_> The thing I like about the patent office is that they need experts in every single subject in the entire universe to work fairly
01:18:20 <pikhq> It is impossible to ensure this without hiring, oh, every single person skilled in every art and every science. :P
01:18:22 <ehird_> They might as well just have called it "The Institution"
01:18:37 <ehird_> Perhaps insert "Mental" somewhere in that.
01:18:56 <coppro> The problem is we're mixing practice and theory
01:19:18 <coppro> I don't disagree that, as it exists, patent law is near-fundamentally flawed
01:19:36 <pikhq> Law is not a matter of theory vs. practice.
01:19:40 <ehird_> how can you say "the patent system is near-fundamentally flawed" and still hold that "patents are a good idea"
01:19:44 <ehird_> do you know what "fundamentally" means
01:19:48 <ehird_> it means not an implementation detail
01:19:55 <coppro> That's why I said "near-"
01:20:03 <coppro> the fundamental idea of patents is good
01:20:09 <coppro> just about everything else about them is not
01:20:14 <pikhq> What is good about it?
01:20:27 <coppro> It encourages information sharing
01:20:31 <pikhq> I know of nothing good about it in the modern day and age.
01:20:44 <ehird_> "I want ponies, and kittens. But they shouldn't poop because poop is gross. We should legislate that ponies and kittens cannot poop."
01:20:45 <coppro> The fundamental idea does
01:20:54 <ehird_> "Hooray for pat^H^Honies and kittens!"
01:21:04 <pikhq> The fundamental idea *wants to*.
01:21:35 <pikhq> What it does is encourages the publication of sufficient details to make a lawer satisified that you got it first.
01:21:46 <pikhq> And ABSOLUTELY NOTHING BEYOND.
01:21:59 <coppro> No, that's what the implementation does
01:22:09 <pikhq> No, that's fundamental.
01:22:31 <coppro> How is publishing vague specifications fundamental to the functioning of patent law?
01:22:49 <pikhq> Because the entire idea is to make you publish sufficient details to make a lawyer satisified that you got it first.
01:23:22 <coppro> From a commercial perspective, sure
01:23:55 <coppro> But the standard of clarity is a detail of the implementation of patent law
01:23:56 <ehird_> is it just me or is coppro arguing for the practical implementation of patents based on abstract arguments for it
01:24:09 <coppro> No. I'm arguing that the fundamental idea is sound
01:24:23 <coppro> (in the sense that communism is sound)
01:24:32 <pikhq> Clarity is impossible to enforce without hiring every specialist ever.
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01:24:47 <coppro> No, just one specialist in every field
01:25:03 <pikhq> And in every subfield. And in every subsubfield. And so on.
01:25:49 <coppro> It could be done, all the same.
01:26:00 <pikhq> And whatever standard of clarity is defined, you must realise: that is the *maximum* that people will do.
01:26:19 <pikhq> Not the minimum, the maximum.
01:26:31 <coppro> Oh, and also, there should be penalties for frivolous patents
01:26:51 <pikhq> The law is fucking impossible to enforce.
01:27:17 <pikhq> In this hypothetical perfect patent system, BTW, everyone would be hired under the patent office already.
01:27:21 <pikhq> ... Meaning not doing anything else.
01:27:37 <pikhq> ... Meaning that the world economy collapses, and we're back to throwing shit at each other.
01:28:14 <coppro> I can't find anything that references penalties for frivolous patents
01:28:36 <pikhq> Then you suck at precedent.
01:30:22 <pikhq> So, in conclusion: patents cannot be enforced, they award entirely the wrong thing, and they punish those who would stand on the shoulders of giants. Ergo, patents are a detriment to human society.
01:30:47 <coppro> All you've managed to do is refute every point except the one I've made
01:31:00 <pikhq> ... What points have you made?
01:31:11 <pikhq> You've only said "I WANT PONIES WITHOUT THE POO!"
01:31:22 <coppro> No. I've said that they would be good without the poo
01:31:25 <ehird_> pikhq: I PATENTED ANIMAL-POO BASED METAPHORS
01:31:45 <ehird_> coppro: But you think removing the poo is achievable.
01:31:48 <pikhq> In other words, you're being a fucking retard.
01:31:54 <ehird_> You refuse, however, to provide any method for achieving this.
01:32:31 <pikhq> You want water that's not wet, animals that don't shit, and bits that aren't copiable.
01:32:49 <coppro> Do I want them? Yes. Do I think that I'm ever going to get them? No.
01:32:51 <pikhq> I'm sorry, but all that's wrong with patents is inherent in patents.
01:33:15 <ehird_> coppro: so... I wasted all my debating with you, offering practical reasons why things like patents cannot work...
01:33:27 <ehird_> ...when your only point is "It sure would be nice if patents weren't unfixable."
01:33:33 <ehird_> I'm going to go cry now.
01:36:54 <ehird_> Can I have my turn now?
01:38:24 <ehird_> pikhq: Synchronised facepalm?
01:40:07 * pikhq beats coppro with a luser attitude retraining tool
01:40:22 <ehird_> There should be a luser(1) that reduces the user's quota to 1 KiB.
01:40:39 <ehird_> And... adjusts... their home directory to account for this.
01:40:47 <ehird_> Biggest files preferred for removal, of course.
01:40:58 <ehird_> And real files over dotfiles.
01:41:09 <ehird_> coppro: Nah; that'll just remove insignificant things.
01:41:13 <ehird_> That's less efficient.
01:41:22 <ehird_> Also, it would remove their mail; they've probably already read it, anyway.
01:41:35 <ehird_> It would be fun to design a general purpose language with more features than Perl 6.
01:41:40 <coppro> ehird_: No, it will remove all the insignificant things first. Then it would run out of things less than 1 KiB, and have to delete it all
01:41:58 <coppro> I'd call you stupid at this point, but that's not my style
01:42:11 <pikhq> ehird_: First, take Perl 6. Then, add TECO.
01:42:18 <ehird_> This is the 90s, who has files bigger than 1 KiB anyway
01:42:28 <pikhq> ... I'm not sure where to go from there.
01:42:30 <ehird_> also, I don't call people stupid for missing my jokes; I say "whoosh".
01:42:46 <pikhq> coppro: No, no, no.
01:42:56 <ehird_> I call people stupid when they repeatedly misinterpret or misunderstand concepts, make assumptions, and give false conclusions illogically based on these, despite me explaining things first.
01:42:56 <pikhq> By "Perl 6", I meant "Perl 6 and all of CPAN".
01:43:05 <ehird_> People have an immense power to go through these steps veeeeery quickly.
01:43:18 <pikhq> Probably add on Perl 5.
01:43:24 <coppro> pikhq: Well, Perl 6 doesn't really have much CPAN right now.
01:43:35 <ehird_> But yeah, it would be fun to design a language which does everything concisely and with little overhead... purely because it has lots, and lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of stuff.
01:44:02 <pikhq> Every single Unicode character is a unique command?
01:44:37 <pikhq> ... Syntactical construct?
01:44:42 <ehird_> Does Haskell let you define ∅, I wonder?
01:44:47 <ehird_> pikhq: Not neccessarily characters.
01:45:04 <coppro> Perl 6 is filled with so much DWIM, it's simultaneously awesome and hideous
01:45:17 <coppro> and there was at least one thing that bugged me last time I looked at the spec... something to do with the Whatever
01:45:26 <pikhq> coppro: It also has a nice Haskell FFI. :P
01:46:58 <ehird_> exclude /^#/ # A MoreThanPerl6 script to strip comments from an e.g. crontab file.
01:47:04 <ehird_> Wonder what that looks like in Perl 5/6.
01:47:39 <ehird_> Also, even if it is yet another implicit concept, having Perl's -p be implied by not giving an argument to a filtery thingy is... disturbing.
01:48:11 <coppro> Perl 6 no longer implies $_ everywhere
01:48:27 <coppro> instead, using the . operator without on object implies using it on $_
01:48:37 <ehird_> yeah, i know that much
01:49:26 <ehird_> s/\$(\w+)/ { ENV[$1] } g;
01:49:41 <ehird_> That ending / means that's ambiguous.
01:50:07 <coppro> also, Perl 6 regexes are whitespace-insensitive. THIS IS MADNESS
01:50:11 <ehird_> Although maybe it should be s/foo/"bar"g; well, that's certainly more consistent with what I said, but still.
01:50:31 <ehird_> Ooh, what if the first argument could be a block too?
01:50:47 <coppro> Perl 6's Unicode support is one of my favorite things in the history of ever
01:51:04 <ehird_> (Since s expects a boolean result from its first block, rand returns either true or false.)
01:51:07 <pikhq> coppro: Bah. I prefer Plan 9 C's support.
01:51:16 <ehird_> Actually, that could just be s{rand}"poop"g
01:51:31 <coppro> Same with Perl 6, except more
01:51:34 <ehird_> Well, it *is* the original implementation of UTF-8.
01:51:38 <ehird_> coppro: you can't say that
01:51:42 <ehird_> you just asked for a link
01:51:51 <ehird_> so you clearly have no idea what Plan 9 C's unicode is like
01:51:55 <ehird_> so you can't say perl6's is better
01:51:57 <pikhq> Let's see if I can find the UTF-8 docs.
01:52:08 <ehird_> I know where the plan 9 man pages are
01:52:11 <coppro> [18:50:55]<pikhq>It just works. [18:50:58]<pikhq>For everything. <-- Perl is even better
01:52:11 <pikhq> http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/programming/c_programming_in_plan_9 This has some of it.
01:52:24 <ehird_> coppro: he's talking about unicode support
01:52:41 <pikhq> Unicode just works for everything on Plan 9.
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01:53:14 <ehird_> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/2/rune
01:53:42 <ehird_> and http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/2/bio for the io functions
01:56:04 <ehird_> plan 9's solution to the problem of unicode handling is to make there not be any problem
01:56:31 <ehird_> since it was the first utf-8 implementation it was all pretty new ground as far as encodings go... so since they didn't *know* there had to be a problem, they didn't code any problems in :P
01:57:09 <ehird_> it doesn't handle non-BMP stuff, but there wasn't any non-BMP stuff when they implemented that (two or three days from scribbling out the UTF-8 standard to having Plan 9 fully running it, IIRC)
01:57:20 <ehird_> and, well, plan 9 isn't exactly under active development :P
01:58:16 <pikhq> It's the nicest C handling of UTF-8 I know of.
01:58:29 <ehird_> ok, seriously, I am <-> this close to patching lwm to allow me to raise windows by clicking inside them
01:58:31 <pikhq> "Let's make it not hard." "Done."
01:58:50 <ehird_> although i'd be more likely to simply write my own, inspired window manager
01:59:43 <ehird_> knowing me, probably go ahead and give it a fun filesystem-based interface
02:00:13 <ehird_> mv $qwm/tabsets/{4,2}/0
02:00:21 <ehird_> voila, the first window in tabset 4 is moved to tabset 2
02:00:35 <ehird_> (by default there'd be a 1:1 mapping of tabsets to windows; if you have two windows, both will be in that tabset)
02:00:57 <ehird_> probably the windows in a tabset would be symlinks to $qwm/windows/N
02:01:11 <ehird_> I wonder if X allows you to draw the same window twice
02:01:23 <ehird_> i.e. could symlinking a window into more than one tabset possibly work
02:03:54 <ehird_> might steal lwm's window placement algorithm for it
02:03:57 <pikhq> A compositing WM could manage it.
02:04:10 <ehird_> it seems to do cascading, but if there's nothing to casccade to, spreads out to maximise space
02:04:17 <ehird_> but it feels like that
02:04:21 <ehird_> pikhq: bah, compositing WMs
02:04:25 <ehird_> I don't even want to write a reparenting WM
02:05:48 <ehird_> pikhq: i mean, lwm can hide windows but they're still there and can be retrieved later, i.e. resizing
02:05:56 <ehird_> so it seems like window = abstract concept is the way to go
02:06:02 <ehird_> if it can be shown 0 or 1 times, why not 2+?
02:06:14 <ehird_> no reason to restrict them to being "physically" put in ses of tabs
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02:09:43 * coppro looks forward to trying out the new tabbing KDE WM
02:11:05 <ehird_> anyone know of any good ncurses IM clients?
02:11:17 <ehird_> sid's centerim is too old to connect to msn
02:11:24 <ehird_> (version is from february!)
02:11:34 <ehird_> pikhq: that's an irc client; and yes, i know of bitlbee
02:11:55 <ehird_> i said i know of bitlbee
02:13:10 <pikhq> High-latency link.
02:15:46 <ehird_> I want to write my WM in Haskell, but xmonad has cornered that market. :P
02:16:00 <ehird_> (This raising issue is *really* pissing me off.)
02:18:44 <ehird_> Also, it is rather sad that Debian sid in a VM with 360 megs of RAM and a Gecko-based XUL browser (as opposed to WebKit + native) is performing better than the OS X host.
02:18:51 <ehird_> Well, the graphics are a bit laggy and stuff, but still.
02:20:15 <coppro> my VM at work does that
02:20:34 <ehird_> OS X really does have too many layers. :P
02:21:33 <ehird_> Debian has an up-to-date Haskell Platform.
02:21:57 <ehird_> Up to the 0.0.x version.
02:22:24 <ehird_> It says that the individual packages mightt not be the version specified in the Haskell Platform, but eh. It's sid; probably not too far behind.
02:22:35 <ehird_> Why are you installing gcc 4.1, Debian?
02:23:02 <coppro> Because that's the newest version they had available at the time?
02:23:31 <ehird_> It's probably some Haskell package breaks with later versions.
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02:27:08 <ehird_> One disadvantage with the location-bar-for-google-search method: for some reason, everything after and including the first / is stripped.
02:32:14 <ehird_> Interesting fact: build-essential isn't intended for setting up a development environment.
02:32:29 <ehird_> It's meant to be "everything you need to build Debian packages"; in fact, the description even says you only need it if you want to build them.
02:33:07 <Pthing> if you don't think so, you can fuck off
02:33:15 <pikhq> Yeah, it's gcc, libc headers, and the .deb build tools...
02:34:02 <Pthing> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quSRLETlKDg
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02:34:54 <ehird_> Pthing: i'm well aware of that quote
02:35:06 <ehird_> it was just, you know, a non-sequitur in context
02:36:09 * ehird_ installs emacs23 for haskelling
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03:07:28 <ehird> 1. Know of any color schemes that aren't hideous uncoordinated piles of vomit that would go well with a #BBBBBB background?
03:08:00 <ehird> 2. Know of any "colour" schemes that are all black foreground (well, maybe some shades of grey are acceptable, as long as it goes well on #BBB) and do their highlighting through bolding and the like?
03:08:40 <Sgeo> <3 loves uncoordinated vomit
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03:11:09 <ehird> As I was saying before irssi barfed,
03:11:14 <ehird> Sgeo: We don't need to know about your fetishes. :P
03:12:05 <ehird> Does irssi have anything to let me click links automagically? This is irritating.
03:15:24 <pikhq> Needs terminal support.
03:16:26 <ehird> urxvt supports a dog and a horse, it can do it.
03:16:30 <ehird> (Worst phrase ever.)
03:16:41 <ehird> Surely it can just hook into mouseclick?
03:21:44 <pikhq> Probably. But that's a terminal thing, not a irssi thing.
03:22:06 <ehird> Yes, but irssi is the one to detect the click and go "x-www-browser $url"
03:24:10 <ehird> URxvt*urlLauncher: firefox
03:24:10 <ehird> URxvt*matcher.button: 1
03:24:11 <ehird> URxvt*perl-ext-common: matcher
03:24:35 * ehird still doesn't know what * vs . doe
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03:26:48 <ehird> Yay, it works now.
03:35:08 <ehird> Wish it changed the cursor on hover, though.
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04:13:59 <ehird> heh, my scale function makes my checkerboard, when scaled by an even amount, go entirely black :)
04:19:59 <ehird> and if you scale it by 0.5, it gets twice as *big*
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06:42:25 <zzo38> Why do some web-pages do both open in the current and a new buffer at the same time when you click a link?
06:43:27 <oerjan> that's been irritating me too
06:43:36 <oerjan> i assumed they were using javascript
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06:43:42 <zzo38> Yes, they are using JavaScript.
06:43:57 <oerjan> and ignoring the fact some people use tabbed browsing
06:45:05 <oerjan> so it's detecting a click, and not what kind of click it is
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06:46:09 <zzo38> But it irritating me, when I left-click a link it opens in both buffers. And in some pages, middle-clicking a link will open a blank buffer or not do anything. This bothers me too. I also made it all links with target=_NEW open in the same buffer instead of a new one, but some links like this don't even have a TARGET attribute
06:46:36 <zzo38> Also, in some other web-pages, I have found that, left-clicking opens in the same buffer and middle-clicking opens in both buffers. This is also no good.
06:47:12 <oerjan> oh is this with ordinary left clicking too? i've been noticing it when opening in a tab (with ctrl-click). but i guess it depends on browser.
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06:47:49 <zzo38> It depends on the site, some sites do one things and others do anothers things
06:48:06 <oerjan> i mean it probably depends on both
06:48:15 <zzo38> Sometimes using the C-F or C-add C-F commands will help, but not always
06:50:00 <zzo38> And I never really understood family relationships until last week, when I saw the equation, and I realized it was actually all very simple.
06:51:38 * oerjan didn't know there was an equation, always assumed family was an unsolvable problem </joke>
06:53:47 <zzo38> It is simple. With two people, figure out the common ancestor and the number of generations between the person and the common ancestor (for example, if same generation as ancestor (yourself) it is zero, etc). Next:
06:54:10 <zzo38> Figure out the difference of the number of generations. This number is the number of removed. Next:
06:54:32 <zzo38> Figure out which number of generations between that person and the ancestor is smaller, and subtract one. That is the rank. End.
06:55:14 <zzo38> Or, in mathematical notation: Rank=min(a,b)-1; Removed=|a-b|
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06:56:42 <zzo38> Now I can understand who can be my cousin, first cousin, second, once removed, etc, and how many zeroth cousins (zero removed) I have, too.
06:57:11 <zzo38> And various other stuff. At first, before, I had heard of "second cousins once removed" before but I really didn't understand what that meant. Now I do understand.
06:57:21 <oerjan> i do not think the terms zeroth (and minus oneth?) cousins are actually used, you know :)
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06:57:59 <zzo38> I don't think so either, but at least it is easily defined
06:58:04 <oerjan> even if they are logical
06:58:18 <zzo38> Like, zeroth cousins zero removed would be your brother and sister, for example.
06:58:41 <immibis> your -1th cousin would be yourself?
06:59:00 <oerjan> or removed, your ancestors/descendants
06:59:30 <pikhq> So, I'm my -1th, 7th, and 9th cousins. Great.
06:59:50 <oerjan> pikhq: um no, only -1th
07:00:09 <oerjan> last common ancestor only
07:00:31 <oerjan> unless you have one of those convoluted families
07:01:10 <pikhq> Once again: I'm my own cousin. :P
07:03:12 <oerjan> at least english _has_ a "removed" concept. as far as i know, norwegian doesn't.
07:03:38 <zzo38> Generally when they say "cousin" by itself they generally refer to first cousins, though, not -1th cousins
07:04:30 * oerjan has no idea what first cousin once removed is in norwegian, if there even is a term
07:05:51 <oerjan> which when i think about it is somewhat awkward given that i have at least five of them
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07:08:38 <oerjan> and those are just the ones i am reasonably sure about
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07:28:00 <zzo38> Have you ever used or heard of the BBL/Abundance database system? It is a very old one, that in some ways is more advanced than Java. However, I have a question, how can I make the sounds properly on a modern computer (with FreeDOS installed)?
07:29:04 <pikhq> Turn your computer on and start the program.
07:29:08 <pikhq> Now, make "beep beep" noises.
07:29:16 <pikhq> It'll probably sound more realistic.
07:30:33 <zzo38> No, that isn't what I mean. I mean, when you use commands like POOP-TONE and BOMB-TONE and such, that it sounds proper instead of just one tick regardless of which sound you type
07:31:12 <zzo38> But I can tell you, BBL/Abundance is very fast, even on XT computer, running from floppy disks.
07:31:25 <zzo38> And the computer is at the church, I can't turn it on right now
07:33:10 <zzo38> Also, how do I disable the mouse driver on FreeDOS?
07:33:24 <zzo38> That computer doesn't even have a mouse
07:33:56 <oerjan> i am not sure it is appropriate to make POOP-TONEs at church, mind you
07:34:37 <pikhq> zzo38: Uh, autoexec.bat or config.sys?
07:34:56 <zzo38> Those are just examples, there is also NOTE-TONE and such things as that. These sound effects are used to tell the user that the data is invalid or that it is out of memory for jaunting (running the program backward in time), etc.
07:35:08 <zzo38> And autoexec.bat and config.sys don't mention the mouse driver at all, but it still starts up
07:35:48 <zzo38> And it isn't in the part of the church where you do the service, instead, the computer is at the building next to it, used for religious education.
07:36:17 <zzo38> While they already have a computer there, the computer already there is used by a different group that works in the same building.
07:36:29 <zzo38> They do have a printer, but the cable is not long enough to connect the computer
07:37:51 <zzo38> Also, BBL/Abundance is Y2K compliant even though it was written 29 years ago! Did you know that?
07:38:53 <pikhq> So, they use an int for the year and output it.
07:41:53 <zzo38> I got the computer from Free Geek, it had Ubuntu installed but I replaced it with FreeDOS and then installed Abundance. Normally the computer comes with two optical drives, and a mouse, but I required only one optical drive and no mouse
07:44:03 <zzo38> BBL/Abundance is from Canadian Mind Products. They have a lot of other stuff on their web-site too, which is unrelated, including things about religion, deep thoughts, Christmas carols, and various other stuff, it might be good to read (even if you are not interested in BBL/Abundance)
07:46:36 <zzo38> I am surrounded by priests who repeat incessantly that their kingdom is not of this world, and yet they lay their hands on everything they can get. -- Napoleon Bonaparte
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09:10:56 <AnMaster> (in Sweden we celebrate on the 24th)
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09:42:14 * oerjan fetches a chocolate ball
10:07:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, going to grandmother today
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14:53:14 <anmaster_phone> oh and yeah not directly on phone, on laptop connected to phone by bluetooth
14:54:59 <anmaster_phone> was hoping to see ehird here. meh. well going to disconnect then. cya
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17:32:33 <zzo38> Hello, today is Christmas Eve, December 24, 2009
17:33:54 <zzo38> Is this a understandable and good explanation of TAVSYS format? http://pbox.ca/10zv0
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03:51:27 <soupdragon> I was wondering about a programming language based on english
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07:11:02 <augur> we should design a purely conjunctivist programming language.
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10:50:40 <ais523> and merry christmas (backdated and/or forwarddated as necessary) AnMaster, and the rest of #esoteric!
10:52:26 <AnMaster> at least "happy new year" will be the same for almost everyone. (IIRC China has it's own one for example)
10:53:22 <AnMaster> ais523, wait a second.. "and/or"?
10:53:50 <ais523> it's not technically wrong to use an inclusive or there, is there?
10:54:15 <AnMaster> ais523, well, that imples a single person could have two Christmases per year, no?
10:54:29 <ais523> if they fly from one country to another, yes
10:54:33 <AnMaster> in which case I feel someone is cheating on the rest of us
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20:45:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, Deewiant: any good ideas for how to go about a Make/C polygot?
20:46:08 <AnMaster> goal: make -f foo.c to build foo
20:48:34 <AnMaster> specifically, how to hide the C code from make
20:48:42 <AnMaster> the other way around is trivial #if 0 .. #endif
20:51:15 <Deewiant> Just make it a command that's never executed?
20:52:33 <Deewiant> #if 0\n.hidden_target: .unsatisfiable_dependency\n#endif\n\tint main(void) { return 0; } or something
20:52:56 <Deewiant> Not sure how make likes an unindented comment there
20:53:21 <AnMaster> still, that means you have to indent your C code one step
20:53:39 <Deewiant> Typically you have to do much worse things to get polyglots to work ;-)
20:53:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I was hoping for something that only made the make part messy
20:53:58 <Deewiant> Just set your tab width to zero and it'll be fine
20:54:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can't you indent preprocessor iirc?
20:55:02 <AnMaster> it might be some gnu thing only *shrug*
20:55:13 <Deewiant> That's why you typicaly see # endif
20:55:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes. though I'm pretty sure I did it at some point by mistake, and it worked
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22:35:53 <Gracenotes> augur... how shall you survive this winter without semantics homework to share with us all?
22:39:52 <augur> merry christmas Gracenotes :D
22:39:56 <augur> also, who needs semantics homework
22:39:59 <augur> theres semantics books!
22:40:28 <augur> also, im going to write a series of blog posts on constructing a prolog interpreter :o
22:40:56 <Gracenotes> actually, given that it's built into the prolog language (with cuts and whatnot), it pretty much has to be backtracking
22:41:05 <augur> nah, just a primitive one
22:41:10 <augur> not optimized or anything
22:41:32 <augur> nope. just bare execution
22:42:05 <augur> itll be a very primitive prolog
22:42:20 <augur> just some simple inference rules and lists
22:43:14 <Gracenotes> neat. I've thought about implementing prolog.
22:43:24 <Gracenotes> which is not as interesting as doing it
22:43:58 <augur> wellnowwhat.net/blog
22:44:16 <Gracenotes> ah, yes, the eminent domain I've been downloading your homework from
22:44:26 <augur> it wont be a complete prolog by far actually. itll really just be a small inference engine that looks a lot like prolog
22:44:32 <augur> the EMINENT domain
22:45:30 <Gracenotes> noes, you've been blagging for months on end now!
22:46:02 <Gracenotes> and I only see one that's a "I haven't been blogging lately" post
22:46:39 <augur> i havent wrote anything in like three months
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22:48:24 <Gracenotes> I should maintain a blog. hm, how long have I been saying this?
22:48:41 <Gracenotes> well, now that I actually have interesting projects I work on occasionally. And interesting thoughts even less occasionally
22:49:04 <augur> if you wanna coauthor you can. :D
22:50:06 <Gracenotes> probably shouldn't, I can excrete toxic amounts of Haskell from my skin
22:50:35 <augur> i find myself implementing certain monadic operations in ruby when doing certain tasks
22:50:53 <Gracenotes> oh dear, you're releasing spores to other languages now
22:51:00 <augur> hell, coding a prolog-like thing without backtracking employs monadic operations
22:51:13 <Gracenotes> there is a logic monad which does just that
22:51:25 <augur> doing non-backtracking non-deterministic computations demands list monads
22:51:40 <Gracenotes> the humble list monad is the one that does true nondet
22:51:45 <augur> if you look in my code, you'll see lots of like
22:52:00 <augur> class Array; def bind(&l); ...; end; end
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22:53:25 <Gracenotes> you know, speaking of the poem on your domain's front page, I once did a Eugene Onegin-style poem outlining the fundamental theorem of calculus
22:53:53 <Gracenotes> only thing is, it was pentameter instead of tetrameter. but I hoped Pushkin scholars might forgive me there
22:54:51 <Gracenotes> in the end, it sounded a bit less Dr. Suess-y than the one about the halting problem, to be honest >_>
22:54:53 <augur> geoff pullum wrote that one
22:55:08 <augur> ive got no clue what pentameter is :D
22:55:33 <Gracenotes> iambic pentameter = 5*2 = 10 syllables, tetrameter = 8
22:55:54 <augur> i dont need your splanashuns
22:58:28 <Gracenotes> anyway, http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Afa5MxwyB_zYZGhjanNrdjNfMTZkOTR6ejU&hl=en
23:00:06 <Gracenotes> I was young. I had a lot of free time. and actually, both of those are probably true :|
23:03:44 <Gracenotes> I read Hofstadter's translation of Eugene Onegin. Liked it quite a bit.
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23:06:52 <augur> we're in #esoteric?
23:06:56 <augur> i thought we were in ##proggit
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23:37:43 <augur> gracenotes: yeah. i dont want it to be possible to just define functions and then apply them elsewhere
23:37:50 <augur> i want it to be that like
23:38:08 <augur> you have to use combinators to do things with functions
23:38:27 <augur> and you dont get a syntactically invisible "apply" combinator :p
23:39:01 <augur> yeah bit proggit isnt esoteric
23:39:08 <augur> and this is kinda esoteric
23:39:31 <augur> i mean, if i made this a truly logic-oriented language itd be easy, then itd just be a crazy esoteric logic language
23:39:43 <augur> ALL FUNCTIONS must be a -> Bool
23:39:44 <Gracenotes> http://www.grammaticalframework.org/ is what I was thinking about
23:39:52 <augur> where a is not a complex type
23:40:15 <Gracenotes> think it might be more on the syntactical than semantic side
23:43:06 <Gracenotes> it might not be as expressive, in terms of expressing the things .you. want to express.
23:44:34 <augur> Es[+(s), Ex[first(s,x), 1=x], Ey[first(s,y) 1=y], Ez[third(s,z), 2=z]]
23:45:06 <augur> Ww[Es[+(s), Ex[first(s,x), 1=x], Ey[first(s,y) 1=y], Ez[third(s,z), w=z]]
23:45:42 <augur> ofcourse itll be cleaned up and compactified, maybe
23:46:26 <augur> maybe even 1 + 2! :o
23:46:35 <augur> but the semantics will be such that this is what it means underlyingly
23:47:00 <augur> ie, 1+2 is sugar for the complicated Ww[...] thing
23:47:09 <augur> by certain rules of expansion
23:47:22 <augur> + is State -> Bool
23:47:40 <augur> the + state in the background is known to have three participates
23:48:07 <augur> 1 is a predicate Number -> Bool
23:48:34 <augur> so first you extract 1
23:48:46 <augur> it doesnt matter i dont think
23:48:56 <augur> well, sorry, you dont extract it
23:49:00 <augur> you leave it where it is
23:49:36 <augur> you look at + and you say, ok, + is a State -> Bool and 2 is a Num -> Bool
23:49:50 <augur> (and we're in an infix frame)
23:50:21 <augur> so + 1 becomes (either) a State -> Bool or a Num -> Bool
23:50:54 <Gracenotes> I don't think a DSL *needs* arithmetic, per se, no?
23:51:16 <Gracenotes> I can see how it works in a prolog-y way, though
23:51:23 <augur> where its roughly \s -> +(s), Ey[first(s,y), 1(y)] or \y -> 1(y), Es[first(y,s), +(s)]
23:51:40 <augur> er, 2(y), sorry :p
23:52:13 <augur> then you combine it with 1 to produce another either State -> Bool or Number -> Bool
23:52:41 <augur> in the same fashion
23:52:54 <augur> and then when you find theres nothing left to combine with
23:53:09 <augur> you have just a lambda, the only good one possible, i think
23:53:32 <augur> \s -> +(s), Ex[first(s,x), 1(x)], Ex[second(s,x), 1(x)]
23:54:12 <augur> but the interpreter knows that things that are +'s also need a third item in order to be acceptable
23:54:31 <augur> so it inserts another one with an empty predicate:
23:54:32 <Gracenotes> something that might make/break your language is having various syntactical shortcuts... enough, not too many
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23:54:52 <Gracenotes> unless you'd want it to be all explicit. depends on which patterns of usage you want to be really common :)
23:54:57 <augur> \s -> +(s), Ex[first(s,x), 1(x)], Ex[second(s,x), 1(x)] becomes
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23:55:34 <augur> Ew[Es[+(s), Ex[first(s,x), 1(x)], Ex[second(s,x), 1(x)], Ez[third(s,z), w(x)]]
23:56:35 <augur> and the W combinator is of type (State -> Bool) -> (Num -> Bool) -> Num
23:56:48 <augur> and this is the _enforced_ semantics of the language
23:56:52 <augur> so you cant actually escape this
23:57:21 <augur> i can integrate this with my desire to have a language that uses movement :D
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00:20:03 <augur> youre canadian arent you
00:21:04 <augur> huh. then your ling training was better than i expected. or something.
00:21:21 <augur> tho i indeed wouldve said @U, i probably wouldve transcribed it as oU
00:23:19 <Gracenotes> more like copying and pasting from the local IPA-friendly dictionary
00:24:10 <Gracenotes> I can speak LaTeX, though. got my IDE to be ∈ the mode for ∞ LaTeX enjoyment
00:24:38 <augur> latex made me reveal my password to irc the other day :|
00:24:45 <augur> i'd been doing my semantics homework in latex
00:24:53 <augur> lots of \f{x} shit all day
00:25:05 <augur> then i go to irc and notice im nicked as augur_
00:25:18 <augur> \msg nickserv id flibble
00:25:57 <augur> well, thats not what it was, right
00:26:03 <augur> i just chose it as an example
00:26:22 <Gracenotes> well, well, my fake password is bubbles. and it's cuter than yours! >:|
00:26:38 <augur> but mine is MISTER flibble! :|
00:27:49 <Gracenotes> oh god, looks like I'm dealing with a professional here. *backs away slowly*
00:30:34 <Gracenotes> I'm watching Buffy. yes, THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
00:37:33 <augur> ok so heres my idea
00:37:45 <augur> you'd have the expression 1 + 2
00:38:10 <augur> with the "abstract" structure ["1", ["+", "2"]]
00:39:07 <augur> "1" = 1 :: n, "2" = 2 :: n, "+" = \s:SUM(s) -> true :: s -> t / n,n,n
00:39:38 <augur> where n,n,n means "if s is SUM(s) then you need three more participants to evaluate this expression"
00:40:20 <augur> ["+", "2"] = \s:SUM(s) -> true && first(s,2) :: s -> t / n,n
00:40:48 <augur> ["1", ["+", "2"]] = \s:SUM(s) -> true && first(s,2) && second(s,1) :: s -> t / n
00:41:04 <augur> the evaluator says, ok this is the top of the tree
00:41:06 <augur> so we lift it now:
00:41:24 <augur> \s:SUM(s) -> true && first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w) :: s -> t
00:41:39 <augur> but this isnt a value type so close over it
00:41:48 <augur> Es:SUM(s)[true && first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]
00:41:57 <augur> but this has an open variable, so question-close that
00:42:06 <augur> Ws[Es:SUM(s)[true && first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]]
00:42:22 <augur> and this can be evaluated because this is a structure that the evaluator understands
00:42:28 <augur> namely, it means 1+2
00:42:39 <augur> so it evaluates it Ww[Es:SUM(s)[true && first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]] and returns 3
00:43:07 <augur> (well, first it does some logic to conjunction reduce Ww[Es:SUM(s)[true && first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]] to Ww[Es:SUM(s)[first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]]
00:52:17 <Gracenotes> why, back in my day, the whole family came to together to talk about semantics in front of the fireplace, we exchanged many arguments about.. er.. whatever semantics is about.. and lambdas.. ∀ dog. ∃ person and stuff
00:57:07 <augur> ok ive refined the ideas some more
00:58:43 <augur> imagine you have the expression "a one + a two"
00:59:03 <augur> for simplicity actually, lets say just "1 plus a two" instead
00:59:31 <augur> lets say "1" ~ 1 :: n
00:59:55 <augur> "plus" ~ \s:SUM(s).true :: s -> t / n,n,n
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01:00:19 <augur> "two" ~ \y.y = 2 :: n -> t
01:00:43 <augur> and "a" ~ \p.Ey.p(y) :: (n -> t) -> t
01:01:27 <augur> or even, lets say, "a" ~ \p.\q.Ey.p(y) & q(y) :: (n -> t) -> (n -> t) -> t
01:01:42 <uorygl> Gracenotes: semantics messes with your mind?
01:01:56 <augur> (uorygl: look at what im saying! its messed with MY mind! :D)
01:02:41 <augur> you put together "a" with "two" to get
01:03:08 <uorygl> It would be nice if I knew what you were talking about.
01:03:09 <augur> \q.Ey[y = 2 & q(y)] :: (n -> t) -> t
01:03:21 <uorygl> And what your notation is.
01:03:47 <augur> then you TRY to put together \s:SUM(s).true :: s -> t / n,n,n with \q.Ey[y = 2 & q(y)] :: (n -> t) -> t
01:03:56 <augur> then you notice, hold on
01:04:24 <augur> (n -> t) -> t?! maybe if i replace the expression "a two" with some unbound variable z :: n
01:04:37 <uorygl> So, um, "1 plus a two".
01:05:53 <augur> eh no sorry my explanations are sucky :d
01:06:02 <augur> my logic isnt quite worked out yet
01:06:25 <uorygl> 1 is a DP; it denotes a specific value.
01:06:32 <uorygl> Two is a noun; it denotes a type of thing.
01:06:53 <uorygl> A is a determiner; it takes a type of thing and denotes a specific instance of it.
01:07:01 <augur> actually, DP's dont denote specific values
01:07:02 <uorygl> Though it doesn't specify the specific instance. :-P
01:07:14 <uorygl> DPs totally denote specific values!
01:07:34 <augur> actually they dont
01:08:26 <uorygl> Plus is... a conjunction? A preposition? Anyway, it takes two DPs and becomes a DP denoting their sum.
01:08:48 <augur> plus is a lambda with a body, and a restriction on its variables
01:09:00 <augur> "plus a two" i is another lambda
01:09:03 <augur> ok i think i have it
01:09:19 <uorygl> Well, figure out whether "plus" is a conjunction or a preposition.
01:09:32 <uorygl> I guess maybe it's both.
01:10:17 <uorygl> So, DPs don't denote specific values?
01:10:37 <augur> "a two" then has the value \q.Ey[y = 2 & q(y)] :: (n -> t) -> t
01:10:51 <augur> so you notice, ok fuck, this doesnt combine with "plus" :: s -> t / n,n,n
01:11:07 <augur> but then you notice, hey, "plus" needs an n participant, and i'm an (n -> t) -> t
01:11:30 <augur> so lets replace "a plus" with an unbound z, and hold "a plus" off on the side for a while
01:11:43 <uorygl> (n -> t) -> t is the same as C n for some monad C.
01:11:57 <augur> so we instead pretend this is "plus z" where z :: n
01:12:04 <augur> holding "a plus" on the side
01:12:40 <augur> so now we combine \s:SUM(s).true :: s -> t / n,n,n with z :: n, returning
01:13:15 <augur> \s:SUM(s).(true && first(s,z)) :: s -> t / n,n
01:13:31 <augur> then we combine 1 :: n with that, returning
01:13:52 <augur> \s:SUM(s).(true && first(s,z) && second(s,1)) :: s -> t / n
01:14:24 <augur> then we say, ok, so this is the top of the tree, but thats not a value i can deal with
01:14:53 <augur> so let me pull this up to an existentially closed statement
01:15:16 <augur> first, let me add the last n:
01:15:29 <augur> \s:SUM(s).(true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)) :: s -> t
01:15:42 <augur> so now i can existentially close s:
01:15:55 <augur> Es:SUM(s).(true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)) :: t
01:16:31 <augur> but z is associated with "a two" and i havent handled that yet
01:16:52 <augur> so "a two" is \q.Ez[z = 2 && q(y)]
01:17:06 <augur> and we can bind z on the whole tree:
01:17:14 <augur> \z.Es:SUM(s).(true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)) :: n -> t
01:17:26 <augur> this is what q needs to be!
01:17:31 <augur> so lets use this as the value for q
01:17:44 <augur> combining "a plus" with "1 plus z"
01:18:02 <augur> Ez[z = 2 && Es:SUM(s).(true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,w))] :: t
01:18:24 <augur> but w is open and we introduced it to satisfy the participant needs of s:SUM(s)
01:18:38 <augur> so we have to bind that with a question operator
01:18:52 <augur> Ww[Ez[z = 2 && Es:SUM(s).(true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,w))]]
01:19:29 <augur> but this isnt something we know how to complrehend, so lets do some logic: minimize Ez to exist around the smallest thing it can:
01:19:49 <augur> Ww[Es:SUM(s)[true && Ez[z = 2 && first(s,z)] && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]]]
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01:20:09 <augur> now apply some general theorem that Ex[x = y && p(x)] :- p(y)
01:20:31 <augur> Ww[Es:SUM(s)[true && first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]]]
01:20:36 <augur> then conjunction reduce true out of existence
01:20:40 <augur> Ww[Es:SUM(s)[first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]]]
01:20:56 <augur> and now notice that this is precisely the kind of statement that the interpreter understands by default.
01:30:30 <uorygl> So, what's the purpose of all this?
01:30:37 <uorygl> Are we trying to make computers understand English?
01:30:43 <augur> quite the opposite
01:30:55 <augur> designed to have syntacto-semantics like natural language
01:31:19 <uorygl> I guess I can see why in this sense DPs don't denote specific values.
01:34:22 <uorygl> So in your language thing, a DP has type (n -> t) -> t?
01:34:22 <uorygl> It's a predicate on predicates?
01:34:22 <uorygl> What do you mean by "it"?
01:34:22 <augur> "a two" is just a convenient use of english words for function names
01:34:22 <uorygl> In English, "a two" is a DP.
01:34:22 <augur> but this isnt english!
01:34:22 <augur> "a two" is just a function of type (n -> t) -> t
01:34:22 <uorygl> So by DP, I mean a thing that looks like an English DP.
01:34:22 <uorygl> So why is it an (n -> t) -> t?
01:34:22 <augur> because i wanted to force QR
01:34:22 <uorygl> If you're trying to be English-like, I would expect a DP to be either a value or a predicate on values.
01:34:22 <augur> quantifier raising
01:34:22 <augur> "a two" is actually a quantifier, right
01:34:22 <augur> \q.Ex[x = 2 && q(x)]
01:34:41 <augur> just like you might have some quantifier in haskell
01:35:18 <uorygl> Can you use pseudo-Haskell notation here? I'm not used to whatever you're using.
01:35:18 <augur> all xs f = Ex:(x in xs)[f(x)]
01:35:39 <augur> or, for the sake of being pure
01:35:56 <augur> well no we cant define
01:36:00 <augur> were TRYING to define
01:36:04 <uorygl> I'm not following a lot of what you're saying.
01:36:21 <augur> all xs f = foldr (&&) True (map f xs)
01:37:06 <augur> exists xs f = foldr (||) False (map f xs)
01:37:28 <uorygl> Did you tell me what the value of "a two" is?
01:37:35 <augur> im getting ther e:D
01:37:47 <uorygl> I think I'd rather you just tell me and we work backwards.
01:38:28 <augur> a f g = exists [x : x <- [1..], f x] g
01:38:40 <uorygl> If I want to learn why the gostak distims what it does, I'd like to know what the gostak distims first.
01:39:05 <augur> a two == exists [x : x <- [1..], x == 2] g
01:39:24 <uorygl> s/a two/a two g/, I'm assuming.
01:39:40 <augur> a two = exists [x : x <- [1..], x == 2]
01:40:16 <uorygl> So "a two" takes a predicate and returns whether 2 satisfies that predicate, right?
01:40:27 <augur> plus is something i cant write in haskell, but lets modify haskell a bit
01:41:07 <augur> lets say that in haskell, the argument in a lambda can have a restriction which is _almost_ like a type but instead tells you what kind of thing this is for semantic interpretability
01:41:11 <augur> we'll denote it like so
01:41:21 <augur> where R is the restriction
01:41:33 <augur> so lets say that plus s:SUM = true
01:41:40 <uorygl> So in your type system, n means values and t means Booleans, right?
01:41:49 <augur> n means Ints, t means Bools
01:42:03 <augur> so plus s:SUM = true :: s -> t
01:42:06 <uorygl> That means a DP is C n, where C is the continuation monad C x = (x -> t) -> t.
01:42:34 <augur> but since s:SUM, and SUMs need 3 "participants" in order to be semantically _sensible_
01:42:49 <augur> plus s:SUM = true :: s -> t / 3
01:43:03 <uorygl> "s:SUM" can be read "s which is a SUM", yes?
01:43:10 <augur> or s -> t / n,n,n specifically
01:43:16 <augur> sure, s-which-is-a-SUM
01:43:20 <augur> but its not a type restriction, keep in mind
01:43:41 <augur> ok so now we want to combine "plus" with "a two"
01:43:49 <uorygl> In "plus s:SUM = true :: s -> t / 3", are you using s consistently?
01:43:55 <uorygl> It looks like you're using it inconsistently.
01:44:07 <uorygl> What does "t / 3" mean?
01:44:29 <augur> the / 3 means "needs three participants in order to be sensible"
01:44:45 <augur> im using s as both the name of the type and the name of the var
01:44:56 <augur> if you want, plus s:SUM = true :: S -> T / N,N,N
01:45:17 <augur> and "a two" is (N -> T) -> T
01:45:21 <augur> so this doesnt match up
01:45:24 <uorygl> It looks to me like you're being really complicated. :-P
01:45:31 <augur> "a two" cant be an arg to "plus"
01:45:39 <augur> so lets be hopeful:
01:45:41 <uorygl> What is a State, anyway?
01:45:55 <augur> in the end, the primitive types wont matter
01:46:02 <augur> and we can make it untyped
01:46:14 <augur> well, mono-primitive
01:46:23 <augur> so lets be hopeful
01:46:27 <uorygl> I would have plus :: ((N,N,N) -> T) -> T or something.
01:46:49 <augur> since "a two" looks like (a -> b) -> b
01:46:58 <augur> this just looks like a type-lifted a
01:47:05 <augur> so "a two" looks like a type-lifted N
01:47:18 <augur> so lets replace "a two" with some place holder, call it tz
01:47:28 <augur> and hold "a two" off to the side
01:47:46 <augur> so now what we're really trying to do is combine plus :: (S -> T) / N,N,N with tz :: N
01:47:56 <augur> well, still, tz isnt an S so it cant be an argument to plus
01:48:03 <augur> but maybe its one of those three participants!
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01:48:20 <uorygl> Do you want to explain why plus has that type?
01:48:30 <augur> its magic, youll see
01:48:38 <augur> so we can specify this. its the first of the three participants to be added, sooo
01:48:42 <augur> we combine the two like so:
01:49:22 <augur> plus ^ tz = \s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) :: S -> T / N,N
01:49:55 <augur> pretend i said z everywhere before where i said tz :p
01:50:21 <augur> (im mixing domains of discourse here, so im thinking partially in terms of words with meanings, and partially in terms of pure meanings, so its difficult. anyway...)
01:50:36 <augur> so plus ^ tz = \s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) :: S -> T / N,N
01:51:02 <augur> cause remmber we're doing "1 plus a two"
01:51:12 <uorygl> (As you can see, the ellipsis denoted that I was responding to your second to last message. :-P)
01:51:12 <augur> N again can be used as a participant
01:51:57 <uorygl> You know, it seems to me that natural language has a value embed :: (Monad m) => m a -> a
01:52:05 <augur> so we combine (plus ^ z) with 1: 1 ^ (plus ^ z) = \s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) :: S -> T / N
01:52:31 <augur> and now we've handled the whole of the _expression_ "1 plus z"
01:52:38 <augur> we have some problems!
01:52:49 <augur> first, we didnt handle that whole "a two" thing, we just left it off to the size
01:53:10 <augur> second we still dont have a last N participant for this function
01:53:15 <augur> so we must proceed!
01:53:17 <uorygl> I don't think I can continue listening unless you tell me why you gave plus that type.
01:53:25 <augur> i will when im done :p
01:53:38 <augur> well, we can existentially close of the s variable!
01:53:43 <augur> \s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) :: S -> T / N
01:53:46 <augur> but this then becomes....
01:53:48 <uorygl> Then say my name when you're done.
01:54:47 <augur> \z -> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1)) :: N -> T / N
01:54:57 <augur> not quite that far :p
01:55:03 <augur> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1)) :: T / N
01:55:12 <uorygl> Darn, no alternative activity comes to mind. I'll have to keep reading.
01:55:27 <augur> but now wait, z isnt _technically_ a bound variable
01:55:48 <augur> so we have to bind it, but we dont want to do existential, since we got z by removing "a two"
01:55:50 <augur> so we do a lambda:
01:55:55 <augur> \z -> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1)) :: N -> T / N
01:56:18 <augur> and now we have an N -> T that "a two" :: (N -> T) -> T can combine with!
01:56:34 <augur> so we put them together to get
01:56:42 <uorygl> Though I'm not reading so much as checking to see whether you're answering my question yet.
01:56:53 <augur> exists [z : z <- [1..], z = 2] (\z -> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1))) :: T / N
01:57:21 <augur> let me stop this ALMOST FINISHED EXPLANATION
01:57:26 <augur> so i can answer your question
01:57:38 <augur> LETS HOPE YOU REMEMBER WHERE WE FUCKING WERE
01:58:32 <augur> the idea is to try and force the language to allow _only_ primitive combinations of functions (ie the kind of combinations you can type into a REPL) which involve ONLY forks of two functions
01:59:01 <uorygl> I'm not familiar with J.
01:59:15 <augur> fork f g h z = f (g x) (h x)
01:59:22 <augur> so the classic definition of avg is
01:59:39 <augur> avg = fork (+) len (/)
02:00:23 <augur> where + should be the summation operation
02:00:45 <augur> since fork (/) (foldr (+) 0) len = \xs (/) (foldr (+) 0 xs) (len xs)
02:01:04 <augur> so then how do you force plus to be a fork-able function?
02:01:12 <augur> well, thats where the language-y stuff comes in
02:01:27 <augur> just say plus is a predicate that specifies that kind of thing its argument is
02:01:40 <augur> all plus does is \s:SUM -> true
02:02:16 <augur> and, by assertion, s is a SUM
02:02:31 <augur> (so the :SUM thing kind of is an assertion of type, rather than a restriction on type)
02:02:36 <uorygl> Though I've not thought about it, it sounds a lot like you're saying, "I want my language to allow only oranges. Now, how do we represent an apple as an orange?"
02:03:12 <augur> if you want your language to be purely logical (Prolog) you have to represent addition some special way
02:03:25 <uorygl> Where "apple" and "orange" are mutually exclusive concepts.
02:03:25 <augur> if you want your language to be purely functional (Haskell) you have to represent loops some special way
02:03:33 <augur> nope, theyre NOT mutually exclusive
02:03:41 <augur> theyre just very different perspectives on things
02:04:14 <augur> you've now figured out how to satisfy "a two"'s argument
02:04:15 <uorygl> "Apple" and "orange" are mutually exclusive. You're denying that my analogy applies.
02:04:19 <uorygl> Which is precisely what I expected.
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02:04:39 <augur> you've done so and gotten back exists [z : z <- [1..], z = 2] (\z -> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1))) :: T / N
02:04:48 <augur> which is GREAT, because this is a basic value
02:04:58 <augur> but wait, its not a sensible meaning
02:05:06 <augur> it still needs an N
02:05:13 <augur> but we dont HAVE an N!
02:05:26 <augur> well, we can ask which N will make it sensible!
02:05:32 <uorygl> I think I'm not your intended audience.
02:05:41 <augur> but now? stick third(s,w) in there at the appropriate place
02:05:52 <augur> exists [z : z <- [1..], z = 2] (\z -> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,z))) :: T
02:06:01 <augur> but now this has an unbound variable z
02:06:04 <augur> so we have to close it
02:06:07 <uorygl> Which means I'm just being distracted and should get back to something useful.
02:06:09 <augur> but how can we close it? well, lambdas.
02:06:29 <augur> woops, this should be w
02:06:32 <augur> since we have z already
02:06:36 <augur> \w -> exists [z : z <- [1..], z = 2] (\z -> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,w))) :: N -> T
02:06:47 <augur> but alas, this is _still_ not a value
02:07:06 <augur> we can "question" it:
02:07:16 <augur> which [1..] (\w -> exists [z : z <- [1..], z = 2] (\z -> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)))) :: t
02:07:38 <augur> where which is like
02:07:56 * uorygl nods in a way that expresses that he believes that his suspicion has been confirmed.
02:08:16 <augur> which x:xs f = if (f x) then x else which xs f
02:08:38 <augur> and which [1..] (\w -> ...) is of type N
02:08:53 <augur> and we can definitely display one of those!
02:09:17 <augur> this is how my esolang is going to calculate 1 + 2 :D
02:09:34 <augur> similar for 1 + 2 but less crazy
02:10:10 <augur> or, since we're being haskellish
02:10:26 <uorygl> I keep coming back to this conversation. It would be easier for me to leave if I explicitly closed my end and you acknowledged the closure.
02:10:46 <augur> uorygl doesnt like my esolang :|
02:11:17 <uorygl> Your esolang is probably interesting, but I must admit I can't find interest in what you're saying.
02:11:29 <augur> well, i was giving an evaluation trace
02:11:33 <augur> who COULD find interest
02:11:44 <uorygl> If your purpose is to interest me, you should answer my questions and say little else.
02:11:55 <augur> well ask me a question then
02:12:07 <augur> you sort of interrupted an explanation i was giving to Gracenotes, so...
02:12:12 <augur> you got the rest of it
02:12:17 <augur> then you started asking queeestions
02:12:26 <augur> i was in the middle of explaining something, you demanded i restart
02:12:30 <uorygl> Okay. I felt I would have been interrupting you, since you were saying so much.
02:13:01 <uorygl> You don't have to be interesting. Did I imply that I wanted that?
02:13:10 <uorygl> s/be interesting/interest me/
02:13:36 <uorygl> Anyway, my question, if you want to answer it, is what it means for a fork to be "of" two functions.
02:13:48 <uorygl> In fork f g h x, what's that a fork of?
02:14:25 <uorygl> Well, you said "only primitive combinations of functions which involve only forks of two functions".
02:14:37 <augur> fork :: forall a, b, c. (a -> b) -> (a -> b) -> (b -> c) -> c
02:14:45 <augur> i defined fork earlier :|
02:14:56 <augur> fork f g h x = f (g x) (h x)
02:15:13 <augur> my types are not matching my definitions but whatever
02:15:35 <uorygl> So is fork (/) (+) len a fork of (+) and len, or what?
02:16:02 <augur> fork :: forall a, b, c. (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
02:16:31 <uorygl> (b -> b -> c), not (b -> b), I think.
02:16:42 <augur> fork (/) (+) is a higher order function \f -> \x -> (+ x) / (f x)
02:17:19 <augur> remember tho, i mistyped + instead of like... foldr (+)
02:17:55 <uorygl> What I'm trying to understand is your usage of "of", though.
02:18:14 <augur> you mean when i said that i wanted everything to be forks of functions
02:18:55 <augur> a fork of f and g is: forsome h. \x -> h (f x) (g x)
02:19:28 <uorygl> So fork f g h x is a fork of g and h.
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02:23:33 <uorygl> There's an arrow operation that does that. Something like (&&&) :: ar a b -> ar c d -> ar (a,c) (b,d)
02:23:56 <augur> maybe. i dont know what its like in haskell
02:24:13 <uorygl> Are you familiar with arrows in Haskell?
02:25:39 <uorygl> They're things that look like functions. Something is an arrow if it has three operations: turning a function into one, composing two of them, and "fork"ing two of them into one.
02:26:07 <uorygl> Except that's not really fork; it's more like (&&&) f g (x,y) = (f x, g y). You can make fork out of it.
02:26:41 <uorygl> Lessee. fork f g h = f . (g &&& h) . (\x -> (x,x))
02:26:50 <uorygl> Where . is the composition operator.
02:27:17 <augur> i know what . is in haskell :P
02:27:34 <augur> and i think you mean
02:28:01 <augur> eh.. no youre right. :D
02:28:21 <uorygl> Well, I said that because . only works for actual functions, not arrow things in general.
02:28:55 <augur> the evaluation of "1 + a two" is such that a lot of it is not written (e.g. the extraction of "a two" is not explicit)
02:29:06 <augur> (in that its done by the interpreter)
02:29:17 * uorygl ponders what "1 plus a two" would look like if it were done with arrows.
02:29:24 <augur> but infact maybe you _could_ do it yourself
02:29:47 <augur> and this evaluates to 3 as well
02:29:56 <uorygl> Let's use @ for an arrow: a @ b is a "function" taking a and returning b.
02:30:00 <augur> which lets you use functions normally
02:30:07 <augur> except that + is not defined as Int -> Int -> Int
02:30:24 <augur> but rather as State -> Bool / Int, Int, Int
02:31:21 <uorygl> "Plus" could be (N,N) @ N, "1" could be () @ N, "a two" could likewise be () @ N...
02:31:43 <uorygl> You can use arrow operators to combine those into () @ N the right way.
02:32:16 <augur> i really should write the interp for this
02:33:19 <augur> i like the idea tho man
02:33:29 <augur> we have to extend it to quantifiers tho
02:33:55 <augur> but im talking to you, so
02:34:13 <augur> nah there can be real functions
02:34:31 <uorygl> "A two" isn't really an N, though; you said that.
02:34:31 <augur> no! haha! there wont be
02:34:40 <augur> "a two" is (N -> T) -> T
02:35:03 <uorygl> If we define a @ b as a -> (b -> T) -> T, then "a two" is () @ N.
02:35:23 <augur> specifically, "a two" == \q.Ex:(x = 2)[q(x)]
02:38:43 <uorygl> Though what you say makes me want to say stuff of my own. :-)
02:39:57 <uorygl> Let's call P a point concept, a specific thing, where anything you might refer to is exactly one point concept.
02:40:12 <augur> so i think "a" would infact be defined as E*
02:40:49 <uorygl> "That orange over there" is a phrase referring to a point concept. There is exactly one thing that you're talking about.
02:41:29 <augur> deictic terms are the only referentials really
02:41:45 <augur> but even "that", while being deictic, is a quantifier
02:41:48 * uorygl lets his browser look up the word "deictic".
02:42:00 <augur> its just a quantifier that has a use of a bound variable
02:42:06 <uorygl> P -> T is a sort of region concept, a type of thing. "Orange" is a region concept, I guess.
02:42:07 <augur> bound globals, really
02:42:52 <augur> that f g = exists [x : x == the_global, f x] g
02:43:18 <uorygl> Nouns tend to denote Rs, and DPs tend to denote Ps.
02:43:30 <augur> "point" concepts are denoted E, btw
02:43:36 <augur> well, in semantics, e
02:44:12 <augur> (you know, we dont use -> in semantics? we use <,>, following church. its horrible. a -> b -> c == <a,<b,c>>
02:45:09 <uorygl> Something that's attested is DPs denoting Rs instead of Ps, which is too bad.
02:45:43 <uorygl> Now, let's pretend English is a subject-dropping language; it doesn't really matter.
02:46:17 <augur> its actually rare that DPs actually point
02:46:22 <uorygl> Verbs can stand alone as sentences, but they are usually modified by subjects, direct objects, indirect objects, and prepositional phrases.
02:46:23 <augur> ignoring "that dog"
02:46:35 <augur> "the cat" does not actually point
02:46:53 <uorygl> "John" doesn't actually point?
02:47:03 <augur> well, it sort of does actually
02:47:15 <augur> "John" can be one of two things
02:47:21 <augur> either an NP, which is a predicate like "cat"
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02:47:41 <augur> or a deictic DP, with a covert deictic existential quantifier
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02:47:56 <uorygl> Intuitively, "John is eating" and "Somebody named John is eating" mean different things.
02:47:58 <augur> the idea is that when you say "John" as a DP, as in "John danced"
02:48:11 -!- Slereah has joined.
02:48:22 <augur> sure sure but "Somebody named 'John' is eating" is overly something even more complex
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02:48:46 <augur> we think that "John danced" is really "NOM John danced"
02:48:55 <augur> where NOM is roughly "Some" only a covert some
02:49:06 <augur> "John danced" is the same as "Some 'John' danced"
02:49:14 <augur> except where you have someone in mind
02:49:34 <augur> "Some 'John' who I'm thinking of danced"
02:49:53 <augur> at least, this is what you have to say to fully account for the semantics of english
02:50:07 <augur> without being obnoxious and saying that there's either
02:50:17 <augur> a) 10 different versions of the verb "eat"
02:50:41 <uorygl> I still think that intuitively, "John is eating" and "Some John who I'm thinking of is eating" mean different things. The former is ambiguous, the latter is inspecific.
02:50:48 <augur> b) 10 different versions of "the"
02:50:59 <augur> well, it DOES mean something different
02:51:15 <augur> because the meaning of "Some John who I'm thinking of is eating" is an actual english sentence with a complex meaning
02:51:26 <augur> see the problem is that like
02:51:44 <augur> the quantifier inside of "NOM" is not the SAME as the quantifier "some ... who I'm thinking of"
02:51:44 <uorygl> You seem to be claiming that they do mean the same thing.
02:51:52 <augur> theyre roughly the same, right
02:52:02 <augur> but insofar as your internal representation is concerned, they're not
02:52:23 <augur> and representationally they're different
02:52:32 <augur> in the same way that "1 + 2" and "2 + 1" are different haskell expressions
02:52:38 <augur> but if you evaluate them they mean the same thing
02:53:00 <augur> if you "evaluate" the two sentences "John is eating" and "Some John that I'm thinking of is eating", WHILE you're thinking of that particular John
02:53:10 <augur> you wont be able to find a difference in meaning
02:53:49 <uorygl> Let's say that "John is eating" does refer to a specific John, though which John it is may be undeterminable.
02:54:00 <augur> undeterminable by the listener
02:54:30 <augur> when we reflect upon the meanings of sentences, we're not looking at whether or not the sentence is true, nor what makes the sentences true, we're looking at the form of the meaning
02:55:19 <augur> the form of the meaning of "John is eating" really does seem to have something like a quantifier in it, at when you represent the meaning using the normal modes of meaning representation.
02:55:46 <augur> if all we ever said were things like "John is eating" this wouldnt be an issue
02:56:00 <augur> hell, if all we said were things like "John is eating" and "all dogs are brown" this wouldnt be an issue
02:56:17 <augur> the issue is "John is eating something"
02:56:39 <uorygl> So I'm trying to create the concept of "the P referred to by a DP". I think in order to do that, I have to find three mutually correlated properties, and say that this new concept is the thing that they are related by being correlated with.
02:56:39 <augur> "The John that I know is eating something"
02:57:10 <uorygl> I think I'm getting caught up in Philosopher's Molasses.
02:57:19 <augur> no, semanticists molasses :p
02:57:22 <augur> but such is language!
02:57:37 <augur> to account for object quantification you need a whole mess of shit
02:57:40 <uorygl> Rationalist's Molasses.
02:57:42 <augur> there are a number of options
02:57:52 <augur> in ONE option, you could ALMOST get away wit h John being deictic
02:58:04 <augur> except then you have to have as many words "John" as know people named John
02:58:19 <augur> AND you also have to have another word "John" that means "person named 'John'"
02:58:37 <uorygl> I'm pondering when it's valid to postulate a concept.
02:59:11 <augur> and at the same time you STILL need to have purely deictic terms like "that"
02:59:27 <augur> or some covert terms that seem to be genuinely deictic
03:00:01 <augur> and then theres the problem that in many languages, even PROPER NOUNS must be used with "the"
03:00:12 <augur> in greek, you dont say "John is dancing" you say "The John is dancing"
03:00:32 <uorygl> Anyway, we should stop trying to find the Deep Theoretical Platonic Truth until we figure out how it's related to the Shallow Empirical Observable Truth.
03:00:40 <augur> the same "the" (an 'o' or there abouts eg 'o janos') that you use to say "the cat"
03:00:53 <augur> there is no shallow empirical observable truth :D
03:01:08 <augur> quantum mechanics and that berkeley dude has shown us this
03:01:30 <augur> look, the evidence that "John" is really a deictic quantifier is quite strong
03:02:02 <augur> yes, it seems like "John is eating" points to some particular person John (because it does) and that it has a different meaning that "Some John is eating" (because it does)
03:02:16 <uorygl> If I look at a glass, I know that I see a glass.
03:02:23 <uorygl> Is there really a glass there? Almost certainly.
03:02:38 <uorygl> The presence of that glass is the shallow empirical observable truth.
03:02:38 <augur> but that does NOT mean that "John" here by itself, as the smallest meaningful object that contains the letters "John", is infact the thing doing the pointing.
03:02:54 <augur> you dont know you see a glass, you THINK you see a glass
03:03:15 <augur> the most you know is that you're experiencing what it would be like to see a glass
03:03:24 <augur> or what you would call a glass
03:04:15 <augur> thats not to say you dont have a very good reason to think that
03:04:15 <uorygl> Sure. In any case, we know *something* upon seeing a glass; whatever logic is based on, let us call that knowledge.
03:04:27 <uorygl> s/logic is based on/the premises of logical reasoning are/
03:04:41 <augur> but that reason is merely 500 million years of evolution hard-coding some very sophisticated philosophical argumentation
03:04:51 <augur> so seeing a glass is NOT shallow at all
03:05:12 <augur> its just that the depth is masked by the fact that conscious experience is a very recent thing that has very LITTLE access to cognitive processes
03:05:24 <uorygl> It's shallow in that it's a very familiar and intuitive sort of thing.
03:05:38 <augur> but familiar and intuitive is irrelevant
03:05:48 <augur> when we're doing semantics, we're not asking what is intuitive
03:05:54 <augur> we're asking what is real
03:05:58 <augur> or accurate, at least.
03:06:22 <augur> science has revealed again and again that the intuitive understanding of the world is usually wrong
03:06:23 <uorygl> I guess it depends on whose perspective you're speaking of. From a human's perspective, it's a shallow truth. From a computer's perspective, it's presumably a pretty deep one.
03:06:44 <augur> motion is not newtonian, there is no such thing as simultaneous, and you are not the best authority on the contents of your own mindbrainthing
03:06:54 <augur> sure, its a shallow truth
03:06:57 <augur> that means nothing
03:07:05 <augur> because were not ASKING what the shallow truth is
03:07:16 <augur> when you ask a person what does "fido is a dog" mean, they just repeat the sentence back at you
03:07:22 <augur> "why, it means that fido is a dog! duh!"
03:07:33 <augur> but thats not a meaning
03:07:43 <augur> thats not what your mental representation of the meaning is
03:08:00 <augur> because "fido is a dog" is a string of letters/sounds!
03:08:22 <augur> and its almost certainly not the case that our representations of meaning are in terms of abstract syntax trees
03:08:56 <augur> because then then bilingual speakers would never be able to say that "rex is a cat" and "rex est un chat" mean the same thing
03:08:57 <uorygl> But our deep knowledge is based on our shallow knowledge and it exists for the purpose of predicting what our next shallow knowledge will be.
03:09:08 <augur> because french and english probably dont have the same abstract syntax in that regard
03:09:13 <augur> yes but guess what
03:09:25 <augur> our shallow knowledge of LANGUAGE is buttressed by an enormously complex linguistic faculty
03:09:50 <augur> what reason do you have to believe that when you learn the word "fido" that you're just learning what it points to?
03:10:00 <augur> this is NOT part of your shallow experience
03:10:09 <augur> because now we're in the realm of cognitive science/psychology/whatever
03:10:22 <augur> your shallow experience of the world does not include the details of name acquisition
03:10:33 <augur> it includes the experience of seeing someone point to an animal and go "fido"
03:10:47 <augur> "fido want a treat?"
03:10:51 <augur> "thats a good fido"
03:11:26 <augur> (oops, sorry, i just used a quantifier in your primary linguistic data! D: you might get the impress that fido is really a predicate!)
03:11:45 <uorygl> Hmm, I think we're talking about the deep truth again.
03:11:59 <augur> because you're saying that the "Shallow" meaning of "fido" is the dog itself
03:12:02 <augur> but how do you know this?
03:12:09 <augur> theres nothing in your experience of the world that shows this
03:12:25 <augur> you have to make an ASSUMPTION about how people learn the meaning of words
03:12:52 <augur> your ASSUMPTION is that "fido" is by default going to be mapped to the dog in question, not to some abstract "fidoness" quality
03:12:59 <augur> but thats the whole thing you're ARGUING!
03:13:00 <uorygl> We're talking about things that are themselves deep truth.
03:13:19 <uorygl> The shallow truth of semantics is whatever we can observe and feel about it.
03:13:27 <augur> but you CANT observe semantics
03:13:41 <augur> and you cant FEEL everything either
03:13:44 <augur> like i said earlier
03:13:51 <augur> you _FEEL_ that when you typed "John"
03:13:52 <uorygl> If semantics has no observable or feelable consequences, there's no reason to discuss it.
03:13:56 <augur> that this whole thing referred to someone
03:14:02 <augur> well, sure, in a way it DID refer to someone in particular
03:14:14 <augur> but that doesnt mean that "John" those four letters are really all there is to that phrase
03:14:22 <augur> nor that that person is all there is to that meaning
03:14:37 <uorygl> Great. So I can see some shallow truth there.
03:15:07 <augur> all you can see is the fact that the string of letters "John" seems to refer to a particular person.
03:15:14 <augur> that doesnt tell you whether or not thats ALL it does
03:15:27 <uorygl> Right. The shallow truth is that "John" probably refers to a particular person.
03:15:51 <augur> and "John" can be a deictic
03:15:55 <augur> but its STILL a quantifier as well
03:16:06 <augur> because its a quantifier with has a deictic element
03:16:10 <augur> or, more accurately
03:16:22 <augur> its a predicate that combines with a quantifier that has a deictic element inside it
03:16:38 <augur> suppose that J was _that particular John_
03:16:54 <augur> the current best guess is that "John" in "John is eating" has the meaning roughly like
03:17:33 <augur> \p -> Ex[x = J & calledJohn(x)]
03:17:47 <augur> you've GOT the deicticy thing in there
03:18:04 <augur> you're referring directly to the person, in that there IS the use of J in there
03:18:18 <augur> but that does NOT mean that the whole thing isnt a quantifier, ok
03:18:55 <augur> infact, the root word "John" (not the phrase "John" in "John is eating") is NOT the thing thats contributing the referentiality
03:19:00 <augur> its the quantifier!
03:19:21 <augur> \q, p -> Ex[x = J & p(x) & q(x)]
03:19:47 <augur> and this quantifier in english (but not in greek maybe?) happens to be phonologically empty
03:20:02 <uorygl> So, you mentioned "the current best guess". What's the question we're guessing the answer to?
03:20:15 <augur> what the meaning of "John" looks like
03:20:29 <augur> is it the person john, or some quantifier, or whatever
03:20:32 <augur> thats the question
03:21:02 <augur> the assumption that its just a reference to some person in particular just _doesnt work_ with the rest of the meanings of sentences
03:21:26 <augur> now we can waffle about the meaning of "meaning"
03:21:26 <uorygl> So, "What does the meaning of 'John' look like?" Now, I can't look at a meaning and see what it looks like, so what's the shallow truth we're trying to figure out by answering that question?
03:21:35 <augur> and say that meaning is the intention behind the expression
03:21:39 <augur> but thats way too loose
03:21:52 <augur> because then the meaning of an expression is whatever the person intends it to be, regardless of the conventions of the language
03:22:08 <augur> "John is eating" means "Mary danced" because i INTENDED it to
03:22:12 <augur> well no, sorry, it doesnt
03:22:28 <augur> semantics is NOT a shallow truth
03:22:48 <augur> which is why you cant just tell me that John refers to the person because thats the shallow truth of it
03:22:53 <uorygl> I find that instead of waffling about meanings, it's better to say what we'd like to say without using the word at all.
03:22:57 <augur> because you're saying the meaning of John is a reference to a person
03:23:08 <augur> but the meaning of expressions is not a shallow truth!
03:23:32 <augur> when you can figure out what you're trying to say without using the word meaning, be my guess :P
03:24:01 <augur> or without using any words that covertly incorporate notions of meaning
03:24:06 <uorygl> What should we conclude upon hearing "John is eating"?
03:24:21 <uorygl> What do people want when they say "John is eating"?
03:24:54 <uorygl> Combine those: What do people want us to conclude when they say "John is eating"?
03:25:17 <augur> we should conclude that the speaker believes there is a person that the speaker believes is called john with whom the speaker knows, and assumes the hearer knows as well, and that this person is, at this very moment, engaged in a process of eating something or other which the speaker doesnt know the identity of, or which the speaker does not feel the identity of to be relevant
03:25:44 <augur> we should also conclude that the speaker believes that this is somehow relevant to the conversation were having and that i will be able to integrate this into my understanding of the situation
03:25:46 <uorygl> Indeed, there's a whole bunch we should conclude.
03:25:58 <augur> except that is not the meaning of the sentence "John is eating"
03:26:18 <augur> because when someone says "John is eating" they are not conveying to you "I believe you know who John is"
03:26:25 <augur> because if they were
03:27:03 <augur> well, there are all sorts of because
03:27:20 <augur> if I said that Frank was wrong when he said that "John is eating"
03:27:55 <augur> this is definitely not going to be the case if Frank didn't actually think I knew who John was
03:28:18 <augur> but all of this hinges on the WORD "meaning"
03:28:31 <augur> i mean, we can just ask what we should concluce
03:28:52 <augur> but that leads to a whole world of shit beyond just LANGUAGE
03:29:01 <augur> it leads to psychology of action
03:29:06 <augur> inferring why people do things
03:29:14 <augur> and that can lead to inferences about the physical world
03:29:39 <augur> because "john died after jumping off the bridge" leads us to conclude that the speaker believes something about jumping off of bridges and death
03:29:47 <augur> and that yadda yadda
03:30:02 <uorygl> No shallow truth can hinge upon the definition of a word. Unless, of course, said truth is about the word itself.
03:30:23 <augur> what we can or should conclude from a sentence is not the meaning of the sentence, its the meaning of the sentence plus a whole shittone of other crap thats brought into the task of understanding
03:30:35 <augur> ah but thats the thing see
03:30:43 <augur> you cant even ask what the shallow truth of blah blah blah is
03:30:50 <augur> because there is no shallow truth of "John"
03:30:59 <augur> truth is a property of claims
03:31:07 <augur> and "John" is not a proposition
03:31:18 <uorygl> Let's call the "real" definition of meaning meaning1, and my definition of meaning meaning2.
03:31:28 <augur> lets not use the word meaning at all
03:31:35 <uorygl> So the meaning1 of "John is eating" does not include the fact that I know who John is, but the meaning2 does.
03:31:41 <augur> lets do what semanticists do and say this:
03:31:55 <uorygl> Why do we care about the meaning1?
03:32:20 <Gracenotes> watching Maru yawn in slow motion is perhaps the most satisfying thing I've done today
03:32:20 <augur> if you know the "meaning" of a sentence like "John is eating", you know what is required of the world for it to be true or not
03:32:35 <augur> you also know some other stuff, but at the very least you know what is required for it to be "literally true"
03:33:17 <augur> semantics is the study of the literal content of expressions
03:33:23 <uorygl> Well, let me take a different route.
03:33:31 <augur> and, it turns out, in order to understand the WHOLE of the "meaning" of "John is eating"
03:33:36 <augur> that is, to include your meaning1 as well
03:33:39 <uorygl> I think you would agree that "Oh no!" doesn't have a truth value.
03:33:45 <uorygl> How do you know that it doesn't have a truth value?
03:33:46 <augur> you have to know the litteral content
03:33:56 <uorygl> And why do you care that it doesn't have a truth value?
03:34:06 <augur> it doesnt have a truth value because you cant so "No, you're wrong." when someone says "Oh no!"
03:34:20 <Gracenotes> since I've sort of been passively wondering what the scope if it all is, how about, say, "John is ugly"?
03:34:27 <augur> the question is whether or not "Oh no!" is language.
03:34:37 <augur> its a bunch of sounds you made with your mouth
03:34:41 <augur> but so is a sneeze
03:34:44 <Gracenotes> or instead of ugly, some other thing that is 100% an opinion of the speaker
03:35:02 <augur> now we might actually accept that its language, sure
03:35:13 <augur> lets say its language, ok
03:35:28 <uorygl> So we feel like there's a notion of contradictability.
03:35:43 <augur> i didnt say that ALL linguistic expressions have truth values
03:35:53 <augur> i said that expressions like "John is dancing" have truth values
03:35:53 <uorygl> When somebody says "You're wrong!" in response to "Oh no!", that makes us feel a specific way.
03:36:13 <augur> oh oh sorry i see what you mean
03:36:28 <augur> "yes thats true" to someone's "oh no"
03:36:35 <augur> nor can you say "no thats false"
03:36:42 <augur> (gracenotes: what about it)
03:37:00 <augur> oh, in-situ questions. what about it?
03:37:13 <Gracenotes> augur: it's not something that is provably true or false, yes, what we learned about in grade school as truth vs. opinions
03:37:46 <augur> "John is ugly" is an assertion
03:37:51 <Gracenotes> well, that is verifiable, although semantics must still make meaning about what the claim is
03:37:55 <augur> and, in some very real sense, it can be considered true or false
03:38:10 <augur> "John is ugly?" with a question mark is a question
03:38:15 <augur> and so doesnt have a truth value
03:38:56 <uorygl> If I know a certain thing, and I hear the sentence "John is eating", I will agree.
03:39:09 <augur> this is the kind of meaning that semantics is concerned with
03:39:17 <augur> the literal sorts of meaning
03:39:20 <uorygl> Yes, I think we've come up with a definition of meaning.
03:39:29 <augur> not what you can infer from the expression
03:39:37 <augur> just what the literal meaning is
03:39:46 <augur> the literal content, if you will
03:39:52 <Gracenotes> just know that, when you hear him used in example questions
03:39:58 <augur> there is a whole field of exploring the non-literal meanings behind things
03:40:02 <augur> part of that is pragmatics
03:40:06 <augur> part of that is psychology
03:40:07 <uorygl> I think we can confuse the issue a bit, though.
03:40:47 <augur> actually we cant. there are very clear lines that can be drawn between literal meaning, pragmatics, and psychology.
03:40:56 <uorygl> Suppose that I and a friend are walking along, and we both see something disgusting. My friend says, "Eew." Am I agreeing?
03:41:02 <augur> and the problematic aspects are all at the line between pragmatics and psychology.
03:41:23 <uorygl> What if my friend says "Disgusting!"?
03:41:28 <augur> that depends on what you mean by "agree"!
03:42:00 <uorygl> Well, this definition of "meaning" that I came up with hinges on what "agreement" is.
03:42:10 <augur> there are at least two words in english that are written "agree"
03:42:13 <augur> or two senses of the same word
03:42:20 <augur> one is "share an opinion"
03:42:54 <augur> "Alexis expressed disgust at the food. I agreed inside, but didn't say anything."
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03:43:12 <Gracenotes> augur: if you work in semantics, you might have to explain this depressingly often :| but better to introduce non-linguists, I suppose.
03:43:25 <augur> the other can mean "express concurrance on a matter"
03:43:34 <augur> "Alexis didn't agree to the terms of the deal"
03:43:53 <augur> "even if inside Alexis really liked the deal, her bosses insisted that she not agree to it"
03:44:46 <augur> Gracenotes: SO often. you have no idea how many times, when working on an extraordinarily complicated issue like what the meaning of "Fido is a dog" is, someone will say "Fido is a dog just means Fido is a dog! It's simple!"
03:44:50 <augur> well no, its not simple, sorry
03:44:55 <augur> you're just DESIGNED TO UNDERSTAND IT
03:45:08 <augur> if it were truly simple, my calculator could understand what it means
03:45:10 <Gracenotes> you must have secret semanticist rituals
03:45:14 <augur> thats the true test
03:45:24 <augur> simplicity is demonstrable: program it.
03:45:36 <augur> thats how we know that calculus, for instance, is mindnumbingly simple, when it comes down to it
03:46:01 <augur> all the calculus youve ever done in your life to date could be done in a computer program in a few minutes or hours
03:46:16 <augur> and a computer isnt anywhere near as smart as a person
03:46:31 <augur> well if calculus is so easy that a computer can do it, it must be easy
03:46:36 <augur> regardless of how difficult humans find it
03:46:37 <uorygl> Is it okay if I interpret "program" as meaning "express in a computer language", where a "computer language" is any language that expresses details that a computer deals with intimately?
03:46:58 <Gracenotes> so, has anyone bothered making a language --(parse)--> syntax --(interpret)--> semantics tool, at some point?
03:47:05 <augur> lets say that "program" means "express in some form of logic"
03:47:20 <augur> since programming languages are just logics.
03:47:31 <Gracenotes> I'd imagine there must be. But fragments of it, which I'm sure is not perfect, otherwise it's what we'd all be using
03:47:34 <uorygl> Well, that's kind of ambiguous, isn't it? Straightforward English is arguably a form of logic.
03:47:37 <augur> but they tend to suck.
03:47:46 <augur> english is far from it
03:47:51 <uorygl> Euclid wrote in straightforward English, for strange values of "English".
03:48:03 <augur> Euclid wrote in straightforward Greek ;)
03:48:17 <augur> what i should have said is
03:48:28 <augur> where a Logic is a well defined formal system
03:48:34 <uorygl> "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for America!" --a straw man
03:48:38 <augur> like first order predicate calculus or whatever
03:48:50 <augur> but sure, programming language
03:49:16 <augur> its just easier to expression certain things in a language like PC2 or HPC or whatever
03:49:43 <augur> but thats what i was doing earlier!
03:49:46 <augur> and you complained!
03:50:04 <augur> if you try to give a good, well defined meaning for "John"
03:50:13 <augur> and your well defined meaning is a referential
03:50:33 <augur> (that is, a symbol referring to, or behaving as if it were, the person)
03:50:46 <augur> (e.g. your logic says the meaning of "John" is J)
03:51:03 <augur> then you will, inevitably, conclude that there must be an infinite number of distinct words "John"
03:51:33 <augur> "John_1" refers to John Lennon, "John_2" refers to JFK, "John_3" refers to the pizza delivery boy, ...
03:51:40 <augur> for all of the John's that you know
03:51:50 <uorygl> Why would those have to be distinct words?
03:52:05 <uorygl> It would make a lot of sense, I think, for them to be distinct senses of a single word.
03:52:07 <augur> well explain how you'd distinguish which is meant!
03:52:21 <augur> tell me how a single word "John" could be used to refer to INDIVIDUAL people
03:52:27 <augur> when when there are multiple Johns
03:52:32 <uorygl> I dunno, the same way that we distinguish between different senses of a word like "set"?
03:52:52 <augur> ah but there are probably multiple words "set"!
03:53:01 <augur> just because they sound the same doesnt mean theyre the same word, keep in mind
03:53:02 <uorygl> Why would we call those multiple words?
03:53:16 <augur> "set" like a movie set
03:53:24 <augur> "set" like what you do to a variable
03:53:30 <augur> probably different words
03:53:34 <uorygl> But I like to define words by the conjunction of spelling, pronunciation, and etymology.
03:53:35 <augur> now maybe you have a smaller kind of difference
03:53:38 <augur> "mostly the same but not quite"
03:53:55 <augur> ok, so now "John" is a single word with multiple subtly different senses
03:54:03 <uorygl> If they have the same spelling, they're pronounced the same way, and their reason for being a word is the same, they're the same word.
03:54:09 <augur> now tell me what the representation in your logic is.
03:54:19 <augur> well yes, words are like
03:54:27 <augur> words are pairs, at least, of form and sound
03:54:34 <augur> what saussure called a Sign
03:54:50 <augur> theres probably a bit more to it than that
03:55:11 <uorygl> Hmm, what you're doing is a lot like asking me for the simplest explanation of a phenomenon.
03:55:37 <augur> you seemed to be up to the challenge of giving me pseudocode for this
03:55:48 <augur> if "John" is one word with multiple senses
03:55:52 <augur> give me pseudocode.
03:56:15 <augur> give me pseudocode for "John is dancing"
03:56:29 <augur> and ignore all the extraneous shit like what the "is" and the "ing" and the tense and shit are doing
03:56:45 <augur> i dont care about that (unless its relevant to your explanation of the pseudocode for "John")
03:57:04 <augur> just give me, right now, the pseudocode.
03:57:42 <uorygl> A person is dancing. That person's name is John. Nothing else I could be referring to is named John. Therefore, I say "John is dancing".
03:59:43 <uorygl> Did I explain the phenomenon?
04:01:01 <augur> not in the way you'd accept it
04:01:06 <augur> because you turned "John" into a predicate!
04:01:11 <augur> "That person's name is John"
04:01:23 <uorygl> Did I attempt to explain the right phenomenon?
04:01:23 <augur> but thats what _I_ said
04:01:53 <augur> just give me the meaning in your pseudocode
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04:02:29 <augur> were talking linguistics
04:02:36 <augur> you might not want to stay D:
04:03:13 <Pthing> is the perfect relish to any and all conversations in which augur plays a vital part
04:03:27 <augur> your mother is the perfect relish?
04:04:36 <uorygl> A person is dancing. "John" evokes that person. "John" does not evoke anything else. Q.E.D.
04:04:57 <uorygl> A person is dancing. "John" evokes that person. "John" does not evoke anything else. I want to use a word that evokes only that person. Q.E.D.
04:05:12 <augur> this is your pseudocode?
04:05:36 <augur> but it does not do what you said!
04:05:48 <augur> or, rather, it does not do what you wanted it to do
04:06:19 <uorygl> Given the statement I just made, one can conclude that I will use the word "John" to refer to the dancing person.
04:06:29 <augur> in that, the word "John" here surely maps to "'John' evokes that person. 'John' does not evoke anything else."
04:06:43 <augur> and minimally also,
04:07:07 <augur> that is to say, the word john maybe denotes a particular person
04:07:50 <augur> but the majority of the words contribution, infact, ALL of the contribution of the words distinguishing feature (being written 'John' instead of 'Mary') is NOT the particular person
04:08:13 <augur> '"John" evokes that person. "John" does not evoke anything else. I want to use a word that evokes only that person.'
04:08:28 <augur> you see what i mean?
04:08:50 <augur> hell, even 'a person' doesnt do what you want unless we interpret it to be some atomic element that means that person
04:08:56 <augur> the whole thing is nothing but a giant quantifier!
04:09:25 <augur> "A person that is called John who is the only person in this context that could intend... is dancing"
04:09:33 <augur> well, thats pretty much what i said earlier. :)
04:09:36 <uorygl> How about we ask a different question, like...
04:10:28 <uorygl> How could an intelligent computer represent the sentence "John is dancing"?
04:10:41 <augur> i dont care how you do it
04:10:44 <augur> just give me pseudocode.
04:12:27 <uorygl> IsDancing(JohnThePizzaDeliveryGuy)
04:12:35 <uorygl> (Look, suggestively-named Lisp tokens!)
04:12:47 <augur> and thats the literal meaning of "John"?
04:13:36 <uorygl> Well, presumably, this computer knows some things that are related to each other, and has chosen this label the relation JohnThePizzaDeliveryGuy.
04:14:04 <augur> so then this computer will always-and-forever interpret "John" as JohnThePizzaDeliveryGuy
04:14:30 <uorygl> Well, there's further reason that the computer interprets "John" as this token.
04:14:41 <augur> ah, well then, you havent given me the literal meaning!
04:14:59 <augur> youve given me a meaning that has some interpretation of meaning already in it
04:15:20 <uorygl> I feel like this has turned into a discussion of rationality, which makes me want to take it to #lesswrong, our rationality channel.
04:15:41 <augur> no, if we did that, thered be no convo here
04:15:58 <augur> since it was quiet until gracenotes and i moved the convo here from proggit
04:16:19 <augur> well sure but we werent talking about esolangs then :D
04:16:29 <augur> we were talking aboud proggitty things
04:16:36 <augur> i mean, maybe #lesswrong
04:16:52 <Gracenotes> if you have a name for your PL, you get a *free* freenode channel for it!
04:17:16 <augur> hence #antigravity! :D
04:18:16 <augur> but i dont go there anymore since i was bored of it
04:26:39 <Gracenotes> now, I'm going to get one of the delicious melted mint chocolate kiss sugar cookies my mom made
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05:19:26 <ehirdiphone> http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2009/12/26/conditional-binding-with-let-in-magpie/ Interesting control structure.
05:20:30 <augur> i should write a similar tutorial in ruby
05:20:53 <augur> if value = "1234".to_i then ... else puts "Couldn't parse string." end
05:22:28 <soupdragon> hate to be a detractor but afaict it's like a bad version of do notation?
05:22:45 <augur> everything is a bad version of do notation
05:23:37 <augur> oh, well, actually ruby wont do it correctly because ruby defaults to 0 if the string starts with a letter, but...
05:29:16 <augur> ehirdiphone: did you hear about my awesome idea for an esolang?
05:32:35 <ehirdiphone> augur: Your snippet was nothing like the actual construct.
05:33:14 <soupdragon> ehird am I missing something or were you being sarcastic?
05:33:42 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Just because a concept is reducible to another concept does not mean it is inferior.
05:33:59 <augur> ehirdiphone: what are you talking about
05:34:02 <soupdragon> I agree and I didn't mean to suggest that
05:34:03 <ehirdiphone> He acks the prior art at the end of the post.
05:34:55 <augur> I don't know what you're talking about ehird.
05:51:17 <augur> did you see my ideas for an esolang, ehird?
05:51:54 <soupdragon> I still don't get what's interesting about the language construct...
05:52:28 <augur> i agree, its nothing amazing
05:52:35 <augur> but its useful i suppose?
05:52:48 <augur> not more useful or less useful than existing ocnstructs, say..
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06:19:47 <uorygl> That conditional binding thing sounds exactly like Haskell's 'maybe', which is a defined function, not a language feature.
06:20:42 <uorygl> Oh, the author said so.
06:21:09 <soupdragon> uorygl, yeah doesn't seem to be anything interesting about it not sure what ehird was meaning
06:28:45 <uorygl> I'm not sleepy any more? >.>]
06:28:51 <augur> uorygl: i think i just made a translation routing from the semantics of functional language to prolog to my esolang
06:34:01 <augur> first [1] -> first 1:[] -> first (List 1 []) -> first(s,l,w) && list(l,1,[]) -> first(s) && P0(s,l) && P1(s,w) && list(l) && P0(l,1) && P1(l,[])
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06:35:26 <augur> Ww[Es[first(s) && P1(s,w) && El:list(l)[P0(s,l) && P0(l,1) && P1(l,[])]]]
06:36:14 <augur> and you'd define, in your code, Ww[Es[first(s) && P1(s,w) && El:list(l)[P0(s,1) && P0(l,x)]] = x
06:36:38 <augur> and thats how you define functions :X
06:37:41 <augur> that should really be
06:37:58 <augur> Ww[Es:FIRST[P1(s,w) && El:LIST[P0(s,1) && P0(l,x)]] = x
06:41:30 <augur> the translation should actually be Ww[Es:FIRST[El:LIST[P0(s,l) && P1(l,1) && P0(l,[])] && P1(s,w)]] sorry
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07:37:54 <augur> an operator that essentially says "for which w is it true that ..."
07:38:15 <augur> Wn[1 + 1 = n] => 2
07:38:38 <soupdragon> ah I get it, but what abouft Wn[n*n = 4], multivalued?
07:47:27 <soupdragon> you know curry has a backend that compiles to prolog?
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08:05:37 <soupdragon> wonder what structures you can decide W for..?
08:06:04 <soupdragon> probably only really trivial stuff like finite sets
08:13:14 <augur> soupdragon: yes, Wn[n*n = 4] would be multiply valued
08:13:25 <augur> infact, it would be like asking that question in prolog
08:24:16 <soupdragon> W with + and * is TC isn't it? you can define 0 = Wn[n+n=n] but I can't see how to define 1 without (.. & ~n = 0) or using A
08:33:20 <soupdragon> that's so irritating that you can't define 1...
08:36:54 <augur> you wouldnt define shit like that
08:37:07 <augur> you would just start by defining succ and shit
08:38:02 <augur> Wn[succ {} == n] = {{}}
08:38:56 <augur> Am[Wn[succ m == n] = {m}]
08:40:24 <augur> actually, this is not a proper quantifier
08:40:29 <augur> i shouldnt even say it like that
08:40:34 <augur> its a quantifier over rules
08:40:39 <augur> so i should just use variables
08:40:52 <augur> Wn[succ M == n] == {M}
08:42:29 <soupdragon> you can immediately solve all diophantine equations
08:43:14 <augur> its just quantified predicate calculus
08:43:33 <augur> using what is essentially a prolog base interpreter
08:43:44 <augur> as the algo to interpret it
08:44:02 <augur> logics are "turing complete", algorithms that calculate logics are
08:44:35 <augur> the existential and universal quantifiers dont quantify over actual things, they're actually sort of more like assertions
08:45:18 <augur> when you say Ex[F(x)] in this language, you're essentially specifying an axiom in a logic
08:45:51 <augur> where :- is the logic turnstile operator
08:46:04 <augur> which says, "anything can prove that Ex[F(x)]"
08:46:42 <augur> which means you can use it whenever you want and its guaranteed to be true.
08:46:43 <soupdragon> I was thinking about it as a (paradoxically strong) language for computing sets
08:47:13 <augur> so really, in this "logic", using Ex[F(x)] in a truth conditional statement is always acceptable
08:47:38 <augur> for instance, the expression [1] is equivalent to El[list(l) && p0(l,1) && p1(l,[])]
08:47:59 <soupdragon> I was going to ask, is it like twelf? :p
08:48:24 <augur> this is me attempting to design a proglang that has the compositional semantics system of natural language.
08:49:16 <augur> except in natural language, Ex[F(x)] is a normal truth-functional quantifier, not an assertion.
08:49:32 <soupdragon> I'm not totally sure what that means but I think my book gets into this later on
08:49:50 <augur> what it means is that ive got some crazy shit in this language im designing :D
08:50:36 <augur> its got a transformational grammar
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08:51:12 <augur> so that, to the extent that you can define generic functions, they will, almost inevitably, result in a rearrangement of the code
08:52:49 <augur> so that if you type lets say "1 == this 1", where "this 1" is the function \p.p(1)
08:53:02 <augur> == doesnt take functions as its right hand argument
08:53:21 <augur> but the right hand argument does take Int -> Bool's
08:53:40 <augur> so you shift "this 1" to the front and turn the rest into a big lambda:
08:53:59 <augur> this 1 (\x.1 == x)
08:54:19 <augur> and infact both of these are valid in the language
08:54:43 <augur> infact, even "this 1 (1 ==) is valid in the language, in a kind of haskellish fashion
08:54:56 <augur> but the means of generating it are more interesting :P
08:55:58 <soupdragon> I don't really see what's going here: What is 'this' and is 1 just an arbitrary symbol
08:56:22 <augur> this is the function \x.\p.p(x)
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09:26:07 <augur> a derivative of haskell with one very simple extra piece of functionality
09:26:49 <augur> which is equivalent to (f . g . ...) h
09:27:02 <augur> and where (f . g . ...) :: a -> b
09:27:09 <augur> and h is of type (a -> b) -> c
09:27:29 <uorygl> Are you sure you didn't mix those types up?
09:27:31 <augur> you can turn the expression into h (f . g . ...)
09:27:49 <augur> in a type mismatch situation
09:27:51 <augur> where the argument
09:28:03 <augur> looks like it should be the function for some higher chain of args
09:28:18 <augur> where the chain looks like it should be the argument of the actual argument
09:28:23 <augur> you can reverse them
09:28:25 <augur> in the simplest case
09:28:46 <uorygl> Huh. That looks difficult to implement and not necessarily useful.
09:28:48 <augur> f g where f :: a -> b, g :: (a -> b) -> c
09:28:54 <augur> this is a type mismatch
09:28:58 <augur> but it wouldnt be if it were g f
09:29:27 <augur> thus you can do shit like, say
09:30:06 <augur> "a" ++ "b" ++ "c" == which ["foo", "abc", "bar"]
09:30:51 <augur> actually the simplest case is all you need to solve since the rest just pops out of it by iterated Move
09:31:16 <augur> which, i guess, is something like indexOf or whatever
09:32:07 <augur> or it functions like it, but is a wh word for ese of understanding
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09:42:13 <augur> my exxample was bad, because ++ is left associative and so ruins things
09:43:11 <augur> which ["foo", "abc", "bar"] == "abc" is just the same
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09:45:22 <augur> i wanted to give an example where the shit before "which" couldnt be used wrapped in ()'s and have it work
09:45:54 <ais523> hi; which lang is this?
09:45:57 <augur> which ["foo"] == "f" ++ "b" ++ "c" i think exemplefies this
09:46:01 <augur> ais523: MoveHaskell!
09:46:22 <augur> slight mod to haskell.
09:46:27 <augur> incredibly minor, infact.
09:46:42 <augur> type mismatches of a certain sort are resolvable
09:47:14 <augur> so in this example
09:47:30 <augur> which ["foo"] :: String -> Int
09:47:50 <augur> but it cant find that as its next arg
09:48:19 <augur> so the interpreter replaces which ["foo"] with a temporary unbound variable x :: String
09:49:32 <augur> actually sorry, which ["foo"] should really be more like (String -> Bool) -> Int
09:49:54 <augur> if it turns out that (x == ...) :: (String -> Bool) -> Int
09:50:16 <augur> the interp lambda binds x and feeds the result in as the argument to which ["foo"]
09:52:42 <ais523> (string -> bool) -> int is a weird typesig
09:53:12 <augur> the type sig is really
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09:53:29 <augur> which :: forall a. [a] -> (a -> Bool) -> Int
09:53:42 <augur> its essentially just firstIndexOf
09:53:55 <augur> except with a test function instead of a value
09:54:26 <Deewiant> Data.List.findIndex :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe Int
09:55:08 <augur> ok so which = findIndex
09:55:24 <augur> findIndex ["foo", "bar", "baz"] == "foo"
09:55:34 <augur> but thats ugly, hence the rename to which :P
09:58:01 <augur> its cool tho, because you can do craaazy shit
09:58:21 <augur> basically, anything where you'd normally do
09:58:48 <augur> you can turn that into ...f...
09:59:06 <augur> assuming theres only one occurance of x in ...
09:59:12 <augur> dunno about multiple occurances
09:59:20 <augur> maybe thered be another rule for that :p
09:59:28 <augur> or a more general rule
10:00:03 <augur> f \x -> ...x...x...x... -> ...f... ... ...
10:00:11 <soupdragon> I guess that's hinting toward some of cc shans notes on linguisticd
10:01:02 <augur> so you could end up doing: which xs f && g && h
10:01:40 <augur> which [1,2,3,4] > 1 && < 5 && odd
10:02:51 <augur> because there are missing vars in...
10:03:06 <augur> which _ [1,2,3,4] _ > 1 && _ < 5 && odd _
10:03:30 <augur> so it goes through building up \x -> x > 1 && x < 5 && odd x
10:04:59 <augur> it also builds up \f -> which f [1,2,3,4]
10:05:53 <augur> actually, im not sure how it'd do that, so lets pretend its which [1,2,3,4] f not which f [1,2,3,4]
10:06:19 <augur> ive never understood why they put the xs last in all these functions
10:06:32 <augur> map f xs, foldr f z xs
10:07:10 <augur> i guess maybe you have more curried (map f) and (foldr f z) than you do (map xs) and (foldr xs z)
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10:23:42 <ais523> MigoMipo: missing slash
10:26:33 <AnMaster> I wonder how suspend to ram/disk interacts with cron jobs
10:26:52 <AnMaster> I mean, if some cron job is running right then
10:28:17 <AnMaster> also why is my dns so slow suddenly
10:28:30 <AnMaster> slow = takes several seconds to resolve anything
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10:29:42 <ais523> AnMaster: it gets suspended and restarted just like any other process
10:30:03 <AnMaster> ais523, what about missed cron jobs?
10:30:27 <ais523> depends on which cron implementation you have
10:30:46 <ais523> I have anacron here, which runs them when it gets round to them
10:30:54 <ais523> as in, late rather than never
10:31:00 <ais523> but it's unusual in that respect
10:31:00 <AnMaster> ais523, anacron needs normal cron to run it iirc
10:31:10 <AnMaster> and can only handle once per day stuff
10:31:48 <AnMaster> oh another cron question: how does cron handle with leap seconds.
10:32:51 <ais523> it would run on :59, surely, if that's what the seconds field said?
10:32:57 <ais523> and :00 if /that's/ what the second's field said?
10:33:10 <ais523> so, no differently from normal
10:34:24 <AnMaster> hm does cron do local time or utc?
10:34:55 <AnMaster> if local time, how does it handle switch to/from daylight saving
10:35:03 * AnMaster forgot which one leaps back an hour
10:35:14 <ais523> heh, all you need is a VM and an insane ntp server
10:35:17 <ais523> and you can find out by experiment
10:36:45 <AnMaster> I'm not sure where to find an insane ntp server ;P
10:37:04 <AnMaster> actually all I need is a VM without time syncing.
10:37:10 <AnMaster> so I can set it manually in there
10:38:43 <ais523> is it wrong that I always try to think up the most insane non-destructive solution to stuff, when I'm in here?
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10:38:46 <AnMaster> ais523, btw about that language on the wiki we talked about a few days ago, using two different interpreters. do you remember it's name?
10:39:06 <ais523> it isn't really two different interps
10:39:11 <ais523> it's just alternate commands are interpreted with different meanings
10:39:28 <ais523> as in, semantics of a command depend on whether an even or an odd number of commands were executed before it
10:39:36 <AnMaster> my idea is not to prove it tc by implementing something in it, my idea is to prove it not tc by implementing it in a sub-tc language
10:40:11 <ais523> it's one of the standard methods to prove something sub-tc
10:40:16 <AnMaster> now, what would be a good language for it
10:40:46 <ais523> if you want vapourware unreleased languages that I've never told the channel about, you could try ACK
10:41:08 <ais523> it's a vague attempt to make a language that's powerful enough to do pretty much anything sub-TC you'd want to do, but isn't TC
10:41:08 <AnMaster> befunge93 won't do, since I would need to store the source somewhere
10:41:19 <ais523> it clearly has infinite storage, is the issue
10:41:30 <ais523> and sub-TC things with infinite storage are kind-of rare
10:41:47 <ais523> you could try to implement it in Splinter, I suppose
10:42:05 <ais523> AnMaster: not exactly, basically you have to calculate how much storage you're going to use in advance
10:42:12 <ais523> and it's hard to see how to do that for dupdog
10:42:42 <ais523> (splinter's a push-down automaton)
10:43:06 <AnMaster> hm "push-down automaton". what exactly can it do that a FSM can't?
10:43:09 <ais523> PDAs are bad at duplicating unboundedly large values, though
10:43:16 <ais523> AnMaster: matching brackets is the most famous example
10:43:26 <ais523> a PDA can match to any depth of nesting, an FSM has to have some limit
10:49:30 <AnMaster> soupdragon, as a literal string? regex?
10:49:40 * AnMaster can't find any meaning in that line
10:49:48 <augur> interestingly, there are a small class of languages which can match a^n b^n c^n trivially, but cant match certain context free languages
10:50:06 <AnMaster> soupdragon, ah, how would you write that as PCRE?
10:50:35 <soupdragon> AnMaster might take me a few hours to figure that out :p
10:50:57 <AnMaster> soupdragon, I strongly suspects PCRE might be TC
10:51:34 <AnMaster> it has recursion and what not after all
10:56:06 <AnMaster> ais523, can you explain how that PDA proof works?
10:56:25 <AnMaster> it seems to be: N{N{N{}}I}Z{B{B{A{}}A{ZBAI}}A{O{ZBAO}I{ZBAI}N}}ZA\
10:56:51 <ais523> you could try stepping through it in an interpreter
10:57:41 <ais523> the basic idea is: you can compile a program that uses n splinters into a program that uses only a limited number by having a large object holding all of them, and a method to step through it
10:57:53 <ais523> and then store things on the call stack Underload-style
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10:59:55 <AnMaster> pda-splinter.pl: Lisp/Scheme program text
11:03:48 <AnMaster> ais523, so what about implementing dupdog in that PDA language and then using the PDA->splinter compiler? would that be easier or harder than splinter directly do you think?
11:13:59 <AnMaster> soupdragon, can't figure what out?
11:14:50 <AnMaster> ais523, meh, I can't think of a way to do it it either the PDA language or splinter directly
11:15:02 <ais523> I suspect dupdog can't be done by a PDA
11:15:05 <AnMaster> basically I guess the issue is understanding splinter
11:15:08 <ais523> although, ofc, that doesn't mean it's TC
11:15:16 <AnMaster> ais523, what is there between a PDA and TC?
11:16:16 <ais523> LBA, but that only really works if you have a concept of input
11:16:21 <ais523> and a whole load of classes that don't have their own names
11:16:25 <ais523> because they don't come up very often
11:16:33 <ais523> (there are infinitely many classes, after all)
11:17:28 <soupdragon> http://www.stanford.edu/~laurik/fsmbook/examples/Einstein%27sPuzzle.html
11:17:41 <AnMaster> ais523, but dupdog doesn't have stdin?
11:18:02 <AnMaster> ais523, also which one is LBA?
11:18:03 <ais523> AnMaster: exactly, which is why LBA doesn't even make any sense wrt dupdog
11:18:07 <ais523> linear-bounded automaton
11:19:00 <AnMaster> oh why did searching for LBA not find http://esolangs.org/wiki/Linear_bounded_automaton
11:19:25 <ais523> no redirect, you can add one if you like
11:19:35 <ais523> mediawiki default search tends to rely a lot on human help
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12:10:40 <augur> i just had an interesting idea
12:11:36 <augur> protons are functions from electrons to 1
12:12:53 <augur> e.g. p = \e -> 1 :: Electron -> Int
12:13:19 <augur> concatenation of protons as in p0^p1 is sort of like fold:
12:13:28 <augur> forked fold? who knows
12:14:52 <augur> p0^p1 = \x -> \y -> p1 x + p0 y
12:14:55 <augur> or something like that
12:15:54 <augur> well maybe it should track charge not charge-balances..
12:17:23 <augur> obviously im sleep deprived :D
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12:38:19 <AnMaster> <augur> e.g. p = \e -> 1 :: Electron -> Int
12:38:42 <AnMaster> well it would have been heavily modified bnf
12:40:56 <AnMaster> and never found a nice tutorial that extended into the depths too
12:41:03 <augur> heres haskell in a micosecond:
12:41:11 <augur> math f(x) is haskell f x
12:41:13 <augur> welcome to haskell
12:41:21 <AnMaster> augur, I'm pretty sure there is more than that
12:41:34 <AnMaster> augur, also, what about f(x,y)
12:41:39 <augur> shh! you'll wake the ehird!
12:42:04 <augur> functions are all monadic in haskell
12:42:21 <soupdragon> functions are all monadic in haskell ???
12:42:32 <augur> nah, its just bracketted when need-be
12:42:44 <augur> no not all functions are monadic in haskell
12:42:50 <augur> where did you get that idea
12:43:09 <augur> but you can do it that way if you want: (+) x y
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12:43:24 <AnMaster> also what about all those type things and such
12:43:36 <augur> see, haskell has sugar for operators right
12:43:42 <augur> but operators are still just functions
12:43:46 <augur> so if you want to get the function
12:43:51 <augur> stick it in parens to "call" it on nothing
12:43:55 <augur> that is, return just the function
12:43:58 <AnMaster> augur, but (+ x y) wouldn't work?
12:44:01 <augur> well now its the function, not the operator
12:44:36 <augur> tho that might also be interpretable as a tuple with one elemtn
12:44:45 <augur> im not sure how haskell disambiguates these things
12:44:57 <AnMaster> augur, I suspect that by mixing the prefix and infix notations it is possible to create something that makes IOCCC seem quite sane and easy to read
12:45:24 <augur> it gets far far worse
12:45:56 <AnMaster> augur, anyway, what is all the stuff about types and such.
12:45:57 <augur> mostly because haskell can be highly pointsfree
12:46:27 <augur> f . g = \x.f (g x)
12:46:27 <AnMaster> soupdragon, which I don't know
12:46:43 <AnMaster> I know erlang, lisp, C, bash, and a few other languages
12:46:43 <augur> AnMaster: im really surprised
12:46:46 <augur> youve been here longer than me
12:47:12 <augur> then f has the type Int -> Int
12:47:40 <augur> well, 1 has the type Int
12:47:43 <augur> 1.0 has the type Float
12:47:51 <augur> you have to convert i guess
12:48:06 <augur> f x = x + 1 is desugard to f = \x -> x + 1
12:48:20 <augur> and so the type looks like whats on either side
12:48:28 <augur> and (x + 1) is an Int too
12:48:42 <augur> f x y = x + y is desugared to \x -> \y -> x + 1
12:48:55 <augur> which is Int -> (Int -> Int)
12:49:09 <augur> since x is an Int and \y -> x + 1 is an Int -> Int
12:49:50 <AnMaster> what exactly do you mean by -> here?
12:50:03 <augur> X -> Y ~ "Take and X and return a Y"
12:50:22 <augur> if this were an untyped lambda calculus
12:50:30 <augur> \x -> \y -> x + y is trivially obvious, right
12:50:33 <augur> apply it to the number 2
12:50:35 <AnMaster> then why isn't f x y = x + y "takes 2 integers and returns one"
12:50:52 <augur> why, because haskell is lambda calculus.
12:50:56 <AnMaster> augur, so it returns a lambda that takes the other parameter?
12:51:10 <augur> hence the following is completely valid haskell:
12:51:16 <augur> f 2 == \y -> 2 + y
12:51:29 <AnMaster> so it returns an "add 2" function
12:52:02 <AnMaster> augur, so what about functions/operators like + - and such that can take various types
12:52:11 <AnMaster> or does haskell have separate + operator for ints and floats?
12:52:23 <augur> well, so theres type polymorphism right
12:52:31 <augur> you might have the function
12:52:44 <augur> now, lists are typed in haskell
12:52:56 <augur> lists are polymorphically typed
12:53:05 <augur> lists of whatever type you give it
12:53:12 <augur> so f x is also polymorphic
12:53:19 <augur> what is its type specifically?
12:53:21 <AnMaster> augur, like list of foo? well okay
12:53:26 <augur> f :: forall a. a -> [a]
12:53:42 <augur> where [a] is the sugar for list of a's
12:53:48 <AnMaster> augur, what does the "a. a" bit mean.
12:53:57 <augur> a. a doesnt mean anything :P
12:54:05 <augur> forall a. a -> [a]
12:54:06 <AnMaster> augur, okay how should one parse that bit then
12:54:27 <augur> for all types a, f can be a -> [a]
12:54:46 <augur> so if you give f an int
12:54:54 <augur> f is behaving like its of type Int -> [Int]
12:55:04 <augur> give it a string and its behaving like its of type String -> [String]
12:55:16 <augur> for ALL types a, f can behave like a -> [a]
12:55:23 <augur> or, f :: forall a. a -> [a]
12:55:41 <AnMaster> augur, so this is not exactly the same as predicate logic ∀ then?
12:55:59 <augur> if you're doing a typed lambda calculus
12:56:04 <augur> this is a quantifier over types
12:56:12 <augur> rather than a quantifier over values
12:56:17 <AnMaster> String -> [String] <-- is that a list of 1 or more strings?
12:56:32 <augur> the list [] is of type
12:56:36 <augur> forall a. a -> [a]
12:56:50 <augur> [a] just means "a list of a's"
12:56:57 <augur> and a list of no a's is still a list of a's
12:57:05 <AnMaster> well [] being of any type makes sense. After all the empty set is a subset of every other set
12:57:14 <augur> so, as for polymorphisms
12:57:36 <augur> i think you can have multiple functions with the same name
12:57:43 <augur> so long as they have different type signatures
12:57:46 <augur> e.g. you could define
12:58:06 <augur> (+) :: Int -> Int -> Int
12:58:12 <augur> (+) :: Float -> Float -> Float
12:58:15 <AnMaster> augur, couldn't there be some confusion about which one to use in certain cases? If there are implicit casts available in haskell?
12:58:22 <AnMaster> if there isn't I can't imagine it being an issue
12:58:28 <augur> no, i dont think there are implicit casts, so
12:58:47 <augur> oh, there are. hah.
12:58:54 <augur> well, the compiler is smart
12:59:04 <augur> it rounds down to the most applicable type
12:59:33 <augur> infact, it seems that haskell has a generic type class Num
12:59:36 <AnMaster> I can still imagining that being an issue sometimes
12:59:43 <augur> and Int and Float are both Nums
12:59:55 <AnMaster> augur, so the types form a hierarchy? sensible
13:00:08 <augur> and (+) is required to be of type (Num a) => a -> a -> a
13:00:29 <augur> where (Num a) => ... just means sort of
13:00:40 <augur> for all types a, which are of the typeclass Num, a -> a -> a
13:00:57 <AnMaster> augur, btw, couldn't you pass a tuple or such to make a function take two arguments (instead of returning a lambda)
13:01:31 <augur> then its a 1-arg function that requires a 2-tuple
13:01:36 <AnMaster> augur, also that leaves some interesting related questions: how you build and take apart tuples
13:01:37 <augur> and it has pattern matching over the tuple
13:01:43 <AnMaster> as in, how do I get the second member of a tuple
13:01:53 <augur> but you cant then do f 1
13:01:57 <augur> because 1 is not a 2-tuple
13:02:00 <AnMaster> augur, so similar to pattern matching?
13:02:11 <augur> its pattern matched, yes.
13:02:34 <augur> so you can, for instance, do
13:03:04 <augur> well, x:xs is cons
13:03:15 <augur> its sugar for roughly
13:03:22 <AnMaster> augur, and what are the car and cdr functions?
13:03:36 <augur> where Cons is a data constructor
13:03:56 <augur> i dont mean its a cons function
13:04:02 <augur> its a special thing
13:04:05 <augur> a data constructor
13:04:20 <AnMaster> augur, is it like erlang's [H|T] then?
13:04:22 <augur> it forms the basis of the ASTs in haskell
13:04:32 <augur> lets pretend its that
13:04:33 <AnMaster> augur, on the left or the right side of = ?
13:04:45 <augur> people dont usually use car and cdr
13:04:53 <augur> because they can just match them out
13:05:02 <augur> so you'd never define first = car
13:05:05 <AnMaster> like erlang's [H|T] then for head/tail
13:05:38 <AnMaster> augur, xs being a variable name that isn't used I guess?
13:05:47 <AnMaster> it would be the cdr I imagine?
13:06:08 <AnMaster> doesn't the compiler warn about unused variable then?
13:06:12 <augur> and this conses together 1 and []
13:06:28 <augur> 1 : 2 : [] = 1 : [2] = [1,2]
13:06:33 <AnMaster> type being a keyword to define a type?
13:06:47 <augur> i mean if you type 1 : []
13:06:56 <AnMaster> right, it wasn't part of the code, heh sorry
13:07:15 <augur> ill use > on newlines
13:07:19 <augur> since lambdabot isnt here
13:08:01 <augur> > let first x:xs = x in first [1,2,3]
13:08:13 <augur> > let rest x:xs = xs in rest [1,2,3]
13:08:36 <AnMaster> augur, so 1 : 2 : [] is (cons 1 (cons 2 '())) ?
13:08:40 <augur> this is because [1,2,3] is really really just sugar for 1:2:[]
13:09:02 <AnMaster> (if you are insisting on infix ;P)
13:09:04 <augur> : being right associative
13:09:25 <augur> if we were using prefixing:
13:09:43 <augur> [1,2,3] is sugar for (:) 1 ((:) 2 ((:) 3 []))
13:09:46 <AnMaster> if you are going to prefix you might as well use lisp instead ;P
13:09:53 <augur> and if we were using the List monad:
13:10:00 <augur> [1,2,3] is sugar for uh
13:10:08 <augur> List 1 (List 2 (List 3 []))
13:10:11 <AnMaster> ah now we come to "monad"... now what on earth is that exactly?
13:10:27 <augur> Monad is a type class
13:10:50 <augur> Int is an instance of the type class Num
13:11:07 <augur> so as an instance of the Monad type class
13:11:10 <AnMaster> augur, so you can only have 2 layers then? type class and type?
13:11:16 <AnMaster> or can type classes inherit each other
13:11:26 <augur> i think you only get types and type classes
13:11:35 <augur> and you just multi-class a type
13:11:56 <augur> on an instance of Monad you can (must?) have defined certain functions
13:12:09 <augur> i think the three are >>=, return, and ... maybe thats it?
13:12:46 <augur> are the only functions.
13:13:09 <AnMaster> (and where does IO and state come into this)
13:13:16 <augur> well, theyre, by convention, required to follow certain rules
13:13:29 <augur> (return a) >> k == k a
13:13:52 <augur> xs >>= (return . f) == fmap f xs
13:14:08 <augur> x >>= (\x -> (k x) >>= h) == (m >>= k) >>= h
13:14:24 <augur> those are the facts that must hold of >>= and return
13:14:41 <augur> when i say must, i mean "by convention of what a monad is"
13:14:51 <augur> you can violate them, but dont expect your code to behave monadically
13:14:51 <AnMaster> augur, writing those in English would help, I'm not very used to the multitude of use of punctuation that haskell uses (possibly even exceeding perl at that!)
13:15:05 <augur> >>= is just an operator right
13:15:22 <augur> so (return a) >>= k == k a
13:15:43 <augur> means that (return a) >>= k must return the same value as k a
13:15:54 <AnMaster> so the >> instead of >>= was a typo?
13:16:04 <augur> . is the compose operator
13:16:16 <AnMaster> augur, okay, I'm more used to seeing the compose operator as a mid dot
13:16:19 <augur> f . g = \x -> f (g x)
13:16:42 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure I have seem f <mid dot> g mean g(f(x)) somewhere
13:16:54 <augur> but haskell isnt APL
13:17:00 <AnMaster> augur, yes, which is where I have seen the mid dot!
13:17:33 <augur> so those are the monad laws
13:17:47 <augur> and thats what defines a monad
13:18:20 <soupdragon> you can define fmap usint >>= and return
13:18:20 <AnMaster> is it related to maping a lambda over a list in any way?
13:18:45 <augur> fmap is i think probably somethat you can think of as like
13:18:58 <augur> a monad-specific definable version of map
13:19:05 <AnMaster> a generic map over lists as well as other types?
13:19:26 <augur> soupdragon, are monads all Functors? they are right?
13:19:50 <AnMaster> then where does state and IO come into monads?
13:19:54 <augur> so, monads are all Functors, Functor being another type class
13:20:06 <augur> and so in order to be a Monad you also have to be a Functor which means you have to have fmap defined.
13:20:10 <soupdragon> yes, another (equivalent) definition of monad is Functor with join and return
13:20:31 <augur> which obeys its own set of laws
13:21:19 <augur> fmap (f . g) x = fmap f (fmap g x)
13:21:44 <augur> IO and state who knows.
13:22:16 <augur> i mean, the way you do it, afaik, is that like
13:22:36 <AnMaster> fmap takes a lambda and whatever it is to map over?
13:22:46 <augur> if you just call into existence an IO monad, itll sort of be the same monad every time.
13:22:57 <augur> but if you pipe an IO monad through some magic functions
13:23:03 <augur> you get new IO monads
13:23:10 <AnMaster> augur, sounds like black compiler magic to me...
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13:23:26 <augur> the idea is basically that the monads you're getting back are not the SAME monad you put in
13:23:32 <augur> and therefore can be different
13:23:36 <AnMaster> augur, and why is that important?
13:23:48 <augur> well, because it provides the illusion of purity
13:24:04 <augur> suppose you just called forth an IO monad from nothing
13:24:07 <augur> and assigned it to x
13:24:17 <augur> and then you did some shit with it, printing a line to the screen
13:24:18 <AnMaster> augur, how is this better than just making most of your code pure and having a tiny bit with all the unpure stuff
13:24:25 <augur> thus getting back a new monad that you assign to y
13:24:29 <AnMaster> like you commonly do in scheme or erlang for example
13:24:55 <augur> if you then tried to print to the screen again using x, i think nothing would happen on screen
13:25:04 <augur> (im not entirely sure on this; i dont do this IO shit in haskell :P)
13:25:11 <augur> instead you'd have to use the monad stored in y
13:25:22 <AnMaster> augur, how do you then get the result from your computation back? ;P
13:25:28 <augur> and you'd keep chaining together the monads you get back from previous IO function calls
13:25:40 <augur> right so input is sort of the same, right
13:25:55 <augur> if you ask the monad stored in y, now, for an input
13:26:08 <augur> itll give you back a string paired with a new IO monad i think
13:26:15 <augur> the new monad you can do shit with however you want
13:26:21 <augur> if you ask y for input AGAIN
13:26:26 <augur> you get back the same string-monad pair as before
13:26:35 <augur> it doesnt go ask the user for input again
13:26:41 <AnMaster> augur, I sure hope haskell's GC is good then
13:26:54 <augur> im fairly certain that its spot on
13:26:56 <AnMaster> since it sounds like reading a file would take an awful lot of memory
13:27:13 <augur> nah, i think read ops are compiler-internally single operations
13:27:14 <AnMaster> well, hoepfully it shares the string read in question
13:27:20 <augur> you get back a monad and the content string
13:27:40 <augur> like i said, im not entirely clear on this IO stuff
13:27:50 <AnMaster> what about the state monad then?
13:28:05 <augur> state is more black magic
13:28:14 <AnMaster> even more than IO? hard to imagine
13:28:22 <Asztal> state isn't black magic at all :(
13:28:24 <augur> i think its vaguely like a monad that has hash-like magic
13:28:33 <Asztal> ST is magic, State isn't.
13:28:43 <AnMaster> Asztal, what is ST and what is State?
13:28:44 <augur> so that when you "assign" you're taking a var-binding hash, and deriving a new hash with the "bound" var changed
13:28:59 <augur> e.g. you're going from, say, { "x" => 1 } to { "x" => 2 }
13:29:06 <augur> in a purely functional fashion
13:29:19 <augur> nothing, im just making shit up
13:29:35 <Asztal> ST means State Thread, it kind of ensures that there's only one "world state" in existence at any time, so you can mutate the world as you please
13:29:40 <AnMaster> it looked slightly python-dict-ish
13:29:56 <augur> its supposed to be ruby-esque but whatever
13:30:15 <AnMaster> augur, well not knowing ruby I guess python was the next best I could manage ;P
13:30:17 <augur> i dont know how these magic monads are implemented so, yeah.
13:30:30 <Asztal> IO and ST are implemented in a very similar way :)
13:31:34 <AnMaster> does it actually act like a erlang style of state process. (being a common idiom)
13:31:37 <Asztal> IO is sort of a special instance of ST where the state you're manipulating is... the real world!
13:31:38 <augur> because its a state monad that threads through your whole program! :P
13:31:50 <AnMaster> ah so not thread as in separate process then?
13:32:00 <Asztal> not a thread in that sense, no.
13:32:06 <augur> i dont think haskell has explicit threading
13:32:31 <augur> because its lazy and functional, you can spin off arbitrarily many threads in your compiled program
13:32:37 <augur> and im pretty sure it works fine
13:32:43 <AnMaster> because using a separate process in erlang is a common idiom to keep the state. basically you send/receive messages to/from that process to access the state
13:32:46 <augur> parallelize the shit out of everything
13:32:53 <AnMaster> and that one just does a tail recursive loop
13:32:57 <AnMaster> with it's state as a parameter
13:33:06 <augur> nothing needs to be explicit except, i think, in your compile params
13:33:32 <AnMaster> augur, well, one issue is where to thread
13:33:50 <AnMaster> I guess the compiler is smart enough to figure out where it is an overhead and where it isn't?
13:34:49 <AnMaster> a heuristic I can't imagine as being 100% fool-proof ;P
13:35:00 <augur> where is lambdabot
13:35:02 <Asztal> The expression (x `par` y) sparks the evaluation of x (to weak head normal form) and returns y. Sparks are queued for execution in FIFO order, but are not executed immediately. If the runtime detects that there is an idle CPU, then it may convert a spark into a real thread, and run the new thread on the idle CPU. In this way the available parallelism is spread amongst the real CPUs.
13:35:17 <Asztal> http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/lang-parallel.html
13:35:37 <augur> well there you go.
13:35:53 <AnMaster> augur, I have ghci in a window here
13:36:53 <AnMaster> augur, does haskell have any sort of macros? In the meaning of lisp macros I mean
13:37:17 <Asztal> it's not quite as cool as lisp, but it does have template haskell
13:37:35 <augur> theres some crazy shit that people do with haskell tho
13:37:40 <AnMaster> Asztal, nothing like C++ templates I hope?
13:37:41 <augur> somehow they get reactive programming
13:37:49 <augur> the epitome of anti-laziness
13:39:14 <AnMaster> augur, so how would you do something like a memoizing Fibonacci function in haskell?
13:39:33 <AnMaster> that is, one which counds up, not down, and reuses the calculations
13:39:41 <AnMaster> so it doesn't have to calculate everything a lot of times
13:39:54 <augur> you could probably do something stupid like
13:40:05 <augur> and just carry your memos with you
13:40:26 <augur> maybe you'd do a memoized-fib monad
13:40:53 <augur> and use do notation to peel it open
13:40:55 <AnMaster> augur, in scheme I would do it as a tail recursive function
13:41:29 <augur> do (n, memo) <- mfib (5, [])
13:41:34 <Asztal> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Memoization#Memoization_with_recursion :P
13:41:36 <AnMaster> soupdragon, oh? how do you implement something like a main loop then?
13:42:09 <AnMaster> soupdragon, looks like a tail call?
13:42:24 <augur> Asztal's memoized fib there looks like magic
13:43:15 <augur> its the magic of infinite lists and such
13:43:24 <AnMaster> soupdragon, the one Asztal linked seems fairly easy to understand, apart from the !! bit
13:43:28 <AnMaster> which I have no idea what it means
13:43:58 <Asztal> "list !! i" picks the i'th element from the list.
13:43:59 <augur> actually, what its doing is defining an infinite list thats calculated over some other infinite list
13:44:11 <augur> and by virtue of it being defined ones, and in terms of itself
13:44:38 <augur> when you go to plug some elements off the list, it just traces back the list, building it up as far as it needs to
13:44:55 <augur> and, since it IS the same list, it only ever gets built up once
13:44:57 <AnMaster> I have to say that the variant I thought of in scheme is a lot more sensible, just tail recursion and pass the value of the last calculations along
13:45:09 <augur> and by built i mean in the interpreter when it tries to evaluate it
13:45:21 <augur> yes, thats what you could do in haskell too
13:45:34 <augur> but then you have to explicitly carry this around
13:45:47 <augur> what the one here doesnt let you do tho
13:45:51 <augur> is memoize across calls to fib
13:45:54 <augur> so if you did like
13:46:04 <augur> it would take the same amount of time
13:46:13 <AnMaster> augur, then I would write it in another way indeed
13:46:22 <augur> whereas if you were explicitely carrying it around, you could do like
13:46:44 <AnMaster> augur, you could use the ST monad to store it somehow? :D
13:46:46 <augur> let (x, memo) = fib 1000000 [] in fib 1000000 memo
13:46:55 <augur> AnMaster: probably
13:47:18 <AnMaster> so what is this infinte list stuff about.
13:47:21 <augur> but you'd still need the explicit stuff i think
13:47:28 <augur> well ok so haskell is lazy, right
13:47:35 <augur> it doesnt evaluate it unless it needs to
13:47:43 <augur> so lets do the classic infinite list
13:48:02 <augur> this is fine, because haskell doesnt need to evaluate ones when DEFINING ones
13:48:07 <augur> it doesnt need to evaluate anything, infact
13:48:18 <AnMaster> I have no problems with that idea at all
13:48:33 <AnMaster> or can you do more interesting stuff with it?
13:48:33 <augur> tho i think itll check for scopes
13:48:41 <augur> well, you can do interesting stuff, but it all comes down to that
13:48:48 <augur> if you do first ones
13:48:59 <augur> it doesnt need to evaluate ones beyond its first value
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13:49:18 <AnMaster> augur, what about using it to calculate 1/2+1/4+1/8+1/16+...
13:49:20 <augur> when you do third ones it then goes through and evals what it needs to eval to get there
13:49:38 <augur> ok so that is probably something like lets see
13:49:50 <AnMaster> doesn't that go to 1 when the number of elements summed goes to infinity iirc?
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13:50:18 <AnMaster> soupdragon, not in math. I think the limit when n goes towards infinite is 1. Unless I misremember
13:50:41 <AnMaster> soupdragon, I meant http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/c/2/ec2190a57b685add5a4e43c3ecfeed94.png
13:50:43 <augur> tha the defintionis
13:51:10 <AnMaster> soupdragon, it would be cool if you could use haskell to do that kind of stuff
13:51:25 <AnMaster> but I guess you are better off with mathematica or some other CAS
13:51:25 <augur> halves = 1 : map (\x -> x/2) (drop 1 halves)
13:51:31 <augur> but i killed ghci doing that
13:51:36 <soupdragon> there's no way + can know that the 100th element of that sequence isn't suddenly 62662
13:51:57 <augur> that will get you [1,1/2,1/4,...]
13:52:24 <augur> then you'd just take however many out you want for precision and fold them down
13:52:30 <augur> i guess you could also do this the smarter way
13:52:33 <soupdragon> if you defined it in the same way as mathematica you could compute it
13:52:52 <soupdragon> (as a series, rather than an infinite sum)
13:52:58 <augur> [x ** n : n <- [0..]]
13:53:45 <augur> Deewiant: but it NEEDS drop 1!
13:53:55 <Deewiant> Only for the infinite loop :-P
13:53:59 <augur> im a silly person i am
13:55:03 <AnMaster> soupdragon, atm I'm trying to work out what it would be in mathematica
13:55:06 <augur> drop n x:xs = drop n-1 xs
13:56:15 <soupdragon> AnMaster, I mean if you represent it symbolically, like Sigma (\n -> Div 1 (Exp 2 n)) then you could write an algorithm to try and solve sums (like mathematica)
13:56:42 <AnMaster> soupdragon, what was that about 1/(1+1/(1+1/...
13:57:03 <AnMaster> *tries to remember the series*
13:57:10 <AnMaster> it was some rather neat series of infinite divisions
13:57:17 <soupdragon> but that's not what I was talking about
13:57:33 <AnMaster> I was just jumping to a different thought
13:57:49 <AnMaster> anyway it wasn't the golden ratio I meant
13:57:52 <soupdragon> phi = 1/(1+phi) also diverges in haskell :P
13:57:58 <AnMaster> soupdragon, the point was that it added up to exactly 2
13:58:03 <AnMaster> so it must have been a different one
13:58:16 <augur> ok im going to sleep for a little bite guys
13:58:20 <AnMaster> it was a continued fraction of some sort
14:06:07 <AnMaster> it was 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32
14:07:58 <AnMaster> soupdragon, as a floating point number?
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14:08:24 <AnMaster> how do you mean it would be stored then
14:08:35 <AnMaster> if decimal 1.11111... is 10 in binary?
14:09:46 <AnMaster> anyway that sum was Sum[1/2^i, {i, 0, Infinity}] I think
14:10:17 <AnMaster> soupdragon, well yes for 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 + ...
14:11:07 <soupdragon> that's pretty cool I wonder what algorithm it uses
14:11:24 <AnMaster> soupdragon, in latex \sum _{i=0}^{\infty } \frac{1}{2^i} I think
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14:45:07 <AnMaster> soupdragon, well that is not public for mathematica mostly iirc
14:46:08 <AnMaster> soupdragon, maxima manages it too
14:46:38 <AnMaster> sum(1/(2^k), k, 0, inf), simpsum;
14:46:47 <AnMaster> soupdragon, so go look at that
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16:47:04 <AnMaster> Gregor, btw, that "linux binaries on OS X" idea with your elfloader, did you do any work of that?
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21:32:59 <AnMaster> hm interesting stuff happens when you delete part of the stuff while tar is still extracting:
21:33:24 <AnMaster> tar: linux-2.6.32.2/arch/microblaze: Function "stat" failed: File or directory not found
21:33:40 <AnMaster> I was trying to save some space by deleting all the arches I didn't need
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21:37:50 <Deewiant> Presumably it was extracting into that directory, so of course it expects it to still exist.
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22:30:27 * uorygl goes to see if Gregor has any simpler opuses.
22:34:48 <uorygl> Well, Opus 10 sounds simpler, but it's less interesting and has some icky patches.
22:35:36 <AnMaster> "Support for old Pentium 5 / WinChip machine checks"
22:36:00 * uorygl looks at the score for Opus 9 in an attempt to judge its quality from just that.
22:37:04 * uorygl listens to the horrible-sounding MIDI version of Opus 9 instead.
22:37:35 <uorygl> Why am I listening to this at all? It's not for piano.
22:38:55 <AnMaster> uorygl, why is it horrible sounding?
22:39:10 <AnMaster> uorygl, not a good enough sound font loaded into your hardware midi?
22:39:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, thing is, if this is a typo for pentium 3 then it would affect the kernel I'm configuring
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22:41:46 <AnMaster> oh it seems the original pentium was codenamed P5
22:41:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: punny puns of puun
22:42:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, too worried about this to bother with puns
22:42:42 <uorygl> AnMaster: nope. It's probably difficult to get a good soundfont for a string trio.
22:42:47 <AnMaster> and I'm not in a happy mood atm: frozen water in pipes tends to make you rather unhappy
22:43:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, thankfully only for the garden hose connection on the outside of the wall
22:43:33 <AnMaster> so no expensive leak inside some wall
22:43:40 <AnMaster> but still, water has to be turned off
22:44:26 <AnMaster> not a single one within 40 km radius was able before tomorrow (and this happened yesterday morning)
22:46:50 <AnMaster> btw googling for pentium 5 found some funny old stuff
22:47:03 <AnMaster> rumours about a 15 GHz pentium 5 by 2010 for example :D
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22:50:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, Intel did say they were going to go to 10 GHz and higher, around the time when the Prescott came out
22:50:43 <Deewiant> When they noticed AMD's 2 GHz chips performed better than theirs they kinda changed plans
22:51:04 <Deewiant> (Where "theirs" == 5 GHz and up.)
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22:52:51 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tejas_and_Jayhawk suggests they had 7 GHz stuff ready to be built in 2004.
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23:23:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but I thought there was some wall around 5-6 Ghz?
23:29:24 <Ilari> What was the highest clock frequency seen in any sold Intel X86/X64 series processor?
23:37:00 <soupdragon> I wanted to ask you guys a question here
23:37:44 <soupdragon> Given a linear recurrence over the integers: a_n = c_1 * a_(n-1) + ... + c_d * a_(n-d)
23:38:10 <soupdragon> with initial conditions, does there exist an k so that a_k = 0? He only asks for a decision procedure: he says that it is ... faintly outrageous that this problem is still open; it is saying that we do not know how to decide the halting problem even for “linear” automata!
23:38:30 <Ilari> Apparently 3.8GHz was the highest.
23:39:03 <soupdragon> I was going to ask, doesn't rule 110 explain why there is no decision procedure
23:39:10 <soupdragon> but actually it's not a linear recurrence..
23:40:01 <uorygl> That question is reminiscent of the subset-sum problem.
23:40:24 <oerjan> soupdragon: um that looked linear to me...
23:40:38 <uorygl> Rule 110 looks linear?
23:41:08 <Ilari> I think that linear recurrence plus initial conditions decision looks solvable...
23:41:59 <oerjan> soupdragon: "faintly outrageous that this problem is still open" means that whoever gave you the problem claims it's open?
23:42:05 <uorygl> Hmm, all those linear recurrences can be represented as matrices.
23:42:05 <Ilari> Ah yeah, I figured out what the problem is...
23:42:50 <soupdragon> yes the claim is that it's open, and I thought 110 gave an argument against: but then realized that 1D CA is a different format
23:43:40 <Ilari> a_n = c_1 * a_(n-1) + ... c_d * a_(n_d) plus initial conditions can be written in form a_n = e_1 * (b_1)^n + ... + e_d * (b_d)^n.
23:43:44 <oerjan> well that obviously means it's _hard_
23:44:36 <oerjan> Ilari: that may still make it _worse_, since those b_i are not integers
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23:44:55 <Ilari> oerjan: In fact b's and e's are not even guaranteed to be real.
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23:47:10 <soupdragon> so you can't encode a turing machine with a linear recurrence?
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23:51:43 <oerjan> soupdragon: um if we knew how to do that we would have solved that unsolved problem. you think that is something done on the spot in an irc channel?
23:52:11 <soupdragon> if you know you can't encode a turing machine into the linear recurrence, it still doesn't solve the problem
23:52:47 <soupdragon> if you know you can then the problem is closed, but it's open -- so there's some kind of epistomogical argument that you can't encode turing machines into it
23:53:35 <oerjan> i don't think so. it could just be possible, but very hard
23:53:59 <oerjan> that's how famous unsolved problems are usually solved, after all
23:54:26 <oerjan> well that or someone comes up with an argument from something completely unrelated
23:56:05 <oerjan> it can be easily turned into a number of special cases of a vector problem
23:56:34 <Ilari> Here's another problem that's suprisingly hard (but not unsolveable): Given nxn table of bits, How many ways there are to choose n all-1 bits such that no two chosen bits are on same column or row?
23:56:34 <oerjan> given matrix A, vector v, is there any n such that A^n v has first coordinate 0
23:57:12 <oerjan> although that could still be harder, or could it...
23:58:05 <oerjan> well that's obviously solvable in the computational sense, just use brute force
23:58:23 <soupdragon> oerjan, hm.. I have seen people compute fibs using the matrix power like that so yeah I see a link
00:02:04 <oerjan> Ilari: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent
00:02:56 <oerjan> "Moreover, computing the permanent of a 0-1 matrix (matrix whose entries are 0 or 1) is #P-complete."
00:03:14 <oerjan> i think that's equivalent to your problem
00:03:49 <oerjan> "Thus, if the permanent can be computed in polynomial time by any method, then FP = #P which is an even stronger statement than P = NP."
00:04:46 <Ilari> But, P = NP impiles P = PH... Are there any problems known to be in P^#P but not in PH?
00:06:50 <oerjan> well given that P^FP = P if P=NP, plus the above, i'd say no...
00:09:19 <oerjan> "One consequence of Toda's theorem is that a polynomial-time machine with a #P oracle (P#P) can solve all problems in PH, the entire polynomial hierarchy. In fact, the polynomial-time machine only needs to make one #P query to solve any problem in PH." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp-P)
00:09:30 <oerjan> but i guess that's what you were referring to
00:10:51 <oerjan> a couple more links brings us to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PP_(complexity)
00:12:33 <oerjan> "PP is contained in PSPACE"
00:13:47 <oerjan> Ilari: i think that means no, because it is not known that P != PSPACE
00:14:37 <oerjan> so if P = PSPACE then P^PP = P containing everything else mentioned
00:15:58 <Ilari> oerjan: The canonical PSPACE-complete problem: Is boolean formula with arbitrary existential and universal operators true?
00:18:59 <Ilari> And for many problems that for turing machine are recursively enumerable (undecidable) are PSPACE-complete for linearly bounded automata.
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04:17:00 * uorygl ponders the permanent of a 0-1 matrix.
04:18:17 <uorygl> You have n objects and n categories. Each object belongs to some arbitrary set of categories. How many ways are there to pick one object from each category?
04:18:48 <coppro> Is that what the permanent of a 0-1 matrix amounts to?
04:21:02 <uorygl> Well, the number of objects is equal to the number of categories either.
04:21:13 <uorygl> If you're picking at least one from each category, you're picking exactly one from each category.
04:21:35 <oerjan> you always pick all the objects, and all the categories. it's the _pairing_ that needs to be picked.
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04:24:29 <oerjan> uorygl: it's the number of ways of pairing objects one-to-one with categories
04:28:06 <uorygl> I guess "ways" is kind of ambiguous.
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09:00:50 <ehirdiphone> C abusers: is there a way to tell if an expression is a constant string or not? Typeof or sizeof magic, etc. Constant meaning things like "abc", "abc" "def", etc.
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09:02:03 <soupdragon> if all the strings are in the .text section the pointer values will be below (above) some threshold
09:02:58 <ehirdiphone> Use case (hiding the magic) #define REGEXP(s) if (constant(s)) compile in the corresponding compiled regexp else compile in a rubtime call to the regexp compiler
09:03:05 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: in the C itself, not post-linking.
09:04:38 <ehirdiphone> I guess the bigger issue is compiling a regexp at compile time, requiring either C execution or spawning a command.
09:04:57 <soupdragon> seems like something you'd normally want to use lisp for
09:05:20 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Yes, but it's not an interesting task in Lisp.
09:06:09 <ehirdiphone> Looks for some magic planted by the macro, compiles the regexp and links it in.
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10:16:30 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: a lot of what augur said about Haskell was outright wrong or explained badly.
10:16:56 <augur> ehirdiphone: a lot of it was right and explained correctly. until the monad stuff
10:17:01 <augur> cause god only knows about monads man
10:17:06 <ehirdiphone> Btw, anyone trying to prove dupdog sub TC could try to implement it in Total FP.
10:18:05 <ehirdiphone> augur: No, you made factual errors, and your explanations were of your usual style, glossing over and bending around in confusing twists.
10:18:23 <augur> no i didnt and no they werent. :|
10:18:32 <augur> malcontent extraordinaire
10:18:44 <ehirdiphone> Besides, anyone who couldn't even write a monad tutorial based around a terrible metaphor shouldn't be teaching it.
10:18:54 <oerjan> hey hey relax, why can't you _both_ be right
10:19:05 <oerjan> or wrong, as the case may be
10:19:06 <ehirdiphone> augur: You made factual errors. End of story.
10:19:11 <augur> couldnt even write a monad tutorial? what?
10:19:15 <augur> which factual erors
10:19:45 <ehirdiphone> One being that you can make multiple functions of the same name as long ad their type
10:20:25 <ehirdiphone> This is false. You apparently discover typeclasses a few lines after stating this.
10:21:06 <augur> well, perhaps you cannot do it precisely as i said
10:21:10 <augur> but you pretty much can, ehird.
10:21:14 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: dupdog in Total FP seems unlikely. after all iirc it is pretty clear that some dupdog programs don't terminate
10:21:15 <augur> typeclasses _do_ do this.
10:21:20 <ehirdiphone> I would write more but seeing as all your explanations last five years i've forgotten most of it
10:22:03 <augur> well then ill let you bullshit an explanation for how you can have >>= defined differently for different kinds of monads.
10:22:22 <augur> in a way thats dependent on the particular monad involved
10:22:44 <ehirdiphone> Those are not multiple definitions of (>>=).
10:23:01 <augur> its just >>= appearing in multiple places
10:23:11 <augur> with different type signatures in each place
10:23:49 <ehirdiphone> oerjan: please tell him to shut up. your name is in the report after all
10:24:09 <ehirdiphone> else I'll be forced to explain what typeclasses actually are
10:24:18 <oerjan> that would be an argument by miniscule authority? :D
10:24:28 <augur> ehird, iknow well enough what type classes are
10:24:33 <ehirdiphone> To an arrogant person who thinks he knows haskell
10:24:42 <augur> ehird stop talking about yourself
10:25:19 <augur> oh god if only there were some sort of tutorial
10:25:28 <augur> that explained overloading of functions!
10:25:34 <augur> http://www.haskell.org/tutorial/classes.html
10:26:47 <augur> could it BE that this document actually says that you can overload a function by defining it differently for different types as they vary under a type class?
10:27:14 <ehirdiphone> You are honestly the most ignorant, self-centered person I have ever had the displeasure of being talked at by on this channel. Cue "I know you are but what am I".
10:27:37 <augur> oh god ehird im so hurt by your displeasure at my being ignorant
10:27:47 <ehirdiphone> (>>=)'s polymorphism does not mean it is more than one function.
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10:28:15 <oerjan> must be them hormones :D
10:28:38 <augur> "oh its not more than one function! i swear! its just defined COMPLETELY dependent upon the type, meaning there are different LAMBDAS but its the same NAME so its only one function!"
10:29:50 <augur> "and you're an arrogant fool who goes around talking about haskell but _I_ know more about haskell! more than spj himself!"
10:30:19 <oerjan> augur: for the millionth time, stop exaggerating
10:30:36 <augur> sorry; i respond to cunty behavior with cunty behavior.
10:30:41 <augur> not that hes here anymore or anything buit
10:32:48 <augur> there is probably a point to which ehird is correct, ofcourse.
10:33:46 <augur> type classes do actually enforce certain type restrictions so having f :: a -> a and f :: a -> a -> a isnt possible i think
10:34:13 <augur> see, im not above acknowledging when someone is correct
10:35:01 <augur> unfortunately thats about it. other than, the functions _do_ differ in type
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10:37:38 <ehirdiphone> class WrongAgainBatman a b where f :: a -> b
10:38:03 <ehirdiphone> instance WrongAgainBatman a (a -> a) where ...
10:38:39 <augur> class IHaveToHaveTheLastWord a where idiot :: a -> Bool
10:39:07 <augur> instance IHaveToHaveTheLastWord Ehird where idiot a = true
10:39:13 <augur> TEEHEE I MADE A HASKELL INSULT
10:40:06 <ehirdiphone> Shit insults without substance, hastily translated into code. I was proving you wrong, not saying "augur is a nitwit on crack", although indeed that is accurate.
10:40:34 <augur> you were proving me wrong huh
10:40:37 <augur> WAT A PROOF OH MAN
10:40:43 <ehirdiphone> I see any further interaction will be epitomic in its boringness.
10:41:24 <augur> maybe you should leave again!
10:41:35 <ehirdiphone> augur: I showed a direct counter example to the statements you made immediately preceding it.
10:41:56 <ehirdiphone> How is that in any way not a disproof of those statements?
10:42:05 <augur> how is it a counter example.
10:42:35 <ehirdiphone> Because you can have f :: a -> a -> a and f :: a
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10:43:37 <augur> did i? im pretty sure I said I think
10:43:40 <augur> which means i wasn't certain
10:43:41 <ehirdiphone> If you didn't understand the code snippet, well, maybe some Haskell knowledge would help.
10:44:05 <augur> which means demonstrating it (which you didnt, since you didnt exactly type a -> a -> a now did you?) merely clears up uncertainty
10:44:10 <ehirdiphone> augur: You say "think" a lot but all the surrounding language was certain.
10:44:40 <augur> WELL THEN YOU MIGHT WANT TO RECONSIDER HOW YOU UNDERSTAND ENGLISH HUH
10:44:44 <ehirdiphone> Also, I didn't type it out, but my code was a direct counterexample.
10:45:03 <augur> was it? cause i dont see how
10:45:37 <ehirdiphone> Because you do not understand Haskell code. Why am I wasting my time, incidentally?
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10:48:25 <MizardX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Axo <-- Expanded the description. Any comments?
11:04:06 <AnMaster> * oerjan laughs at today's iwc <-- me too!
11:06:16 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Btw, anyone trying to prove dupdog sub TC could try to implement it in Total FP. <--- I have been thinking about various sub-TC languages, and I can't think of a way. Plus what oerjan said later.
11:06:49 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> oerjan: please tell him to shut up. your name is in the report after all <--- what report?
11:07:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, what report did he mean?
11:07:33 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> To an arrogant person who thinks he knows haskell <-- please tell me when you get back: do you claim you know haskell? ;)
11:08:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, heh, how comes your name is in there?
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21:47:10 <AnMaster> google should have a reverse image search
21:47:26 <AnMaster> you provide an *image* and it tries to locate images like it
21:51:59 <FireFly> I think I've read something about it
22:05:02 <AnMaster> I imagine it would take a lot of computation
22:05:43 <FireFly> I don't know if it _exists_, but I think I saw something on Google about something similar
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23:05:25 <AnMaster> hm I should start using gigaångström for measurement
23:06:35 <FireFly> Swedish sounds so wrong in such contexts
23:07:13 <Deewiant> Or a furlong per fortnight, which is around 1 cm / minute
23:07:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how long is a furlong?
23:08:25 <AnMaster> yes 201.168 meters says units(1)
23:08:50 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unusual_units_of_measurement
23:08:59 <AnMaster> <FireFly> Swedish sounds so wrong in such contexts <-- pronounce it in English "angstrom"
23:09:15 <AnMaster> it sounds like their "smorgasbord"
23:10:03 <FireFly> And what's the reason for having a unit for 0.1nm anyway?
23:10:20 <FireFly> 0.8nm makes more sense than 8Å for me
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00:00:42 <augur> i want an autotracking telescope :|
00:12:05 <uorygl> AnMaster: make sure you put a diaeresis over the å in gigaångstrom.
00:12:46 <uorygl> It'll be one of those words containig both a diaeresis and an umlaut!
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00:54:18 <augur> any ideas yet on how to make a name not be a predicate? :P
00:57:18 <uorygl> Yes, but I refuse to tell you! :-P
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02:42:19 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: insulting others does not make oneself arrogant.
02:43:45 <ehirdiphone> Lets you find source, larger version, uncropped version, etc.
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02:44:49 <ehirdiphone> Think music fingerprinting a la MusicBrainz.
02:46:58 <ehirdiphone> Minimum 100 pixels in either dimension, max 1 MiB, 100 searches a day. YMMV.
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02:58:30 <AnMaster> <uorygl> It'll be one of those words containig both a diaeresis and an umlaut! <-- no
02:58:53 <AnMaster> they are not just "a with dots/ring"
02:58:59 <AnMaster> they are separate letters in the alphabet
02:59:19 <AnMaster> it's like saying the dot over "i" is just some kind of similar thing
02:59:40 <AnMaster> <uorygl> It'll be one of those words containig both a diaeresis and an umlaut! <-- also there are lots of such words
03:00:36 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Minimum 100 pixels in either dimension, max 1 MiB, 100 searches a day. YMMV. <-- cool btw
03:00:58 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, meh you know what I meant
03:01:12 * AnMaster waits for a few seconds just in case
03:01:31 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, also here is something funny about how crazy Sweden used to be: http://europeanhistory.about.com/library/bldyk2.htm
03:01:40 <AnMaster> not sure about how true this is
03:03:54 <ehirdiphone> about.com is pretty accurate on objective matters
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04:05:41 <uorygl> < AnMaster> uorygl, because they are not
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10:59:28 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <uorygl> It'll be one of those words containig both a diaeresis and an umlaut! <-- no
10:59:28 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> uorygl, because they are not
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11:00:04 <AnMaster> uorygl, those letters are not a or o with dots
11:00:12 <AnMaster> uorygl, they are in fact separate letters
11:00:18 <AnMaster> as in they have a place in the alphabet
11:01:15 <AnMaster> (and Swedish only has w in imported words + a few family names, most of which are not native ones iirc)
11:02:37 <uorygl> Oh. The ö in ångström isn't an o with an umlaut?
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12:47:33 <MizardX> ö in swedish is always o with umlaut/diaeresis
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17:08:27 <AnMaster> <uorygl> Oh. The ö in ångström isn't an o with an umlaut? <-- nor is the a an a with a "diaeresis" or whatever you called it
17:10:05 <AnMaster> <MizardX> ö in swedish is always o with umlaut/diaeresis <-- is e and é separate letters? Not in any language I know of (but I don't exclude this may happen). Rather é seems to be "e with modifier"
17:10:57 <AnMaster> but ö is not "o with a modifier" in Swedish, It's a separate letter.
17:11:04 <AnMaster> most people seem to get this wrong
17:11:46 <oerjan> hm i _think_ e and é may be separate in hungarian. let me check...
17:13:21 <oerjan> hm yeah. not for collation though.
17:16:41 <oerjan> czech does not consider them truly different, iiuc from wikipedia
17:16:50 <Deewiant> Phonological umlaut exists in most Germanic languages, including Swedish and even in English plurals: goose/geese, for example.
17:17:10 <Deewiant> The diacritic ¨ no longer represents umlaut or even diaeresis (e.g. English "coöperate") in most of these languages: mostly the letters äöü were borrowed into the alphabet from German because they sounded similar.
17:17:38 <oerjan> so, whether to treat such things as separate letters or not is completely arbitrary by language
17:17:41 <Deewiant> Wikipedia tells me that Swedish did originally use ä and ö specifically for umlaut purposes, though.
17:20:07 <oerjan> well iirc those sounds originated mainly from umlaut in what used to be a/o/u in front of i's in old nordic
17:22:47 <oerjan> there were also other processes in front of u and a. e.g. e -> ja in front of a
17:23:33 <oerjan> (in norwegian that only happens in some dialects. thus nynorsk "eg" == bokmål "jeg" == swedish "jag" == english "I"
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19:56:01 <zzo38> Are any people on here today? I can see the log
19:56:18 <zzo38> O, it is the same timezone that I am at
19:56:31 <zzo38> The server TIME command also gives the same timezone
19:59:32 <ais523> I'm here, but about to leave
19:59:48 <zzo38> http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Challenge_Ruleset_%283.5e_Variant_Rule%29
20:00:43 <zzo38> Those people won't provide the address cloak I asked.
20:00:56 <zzo38> So, I choose not to address cloak, instead
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20:10:47 <zzo38> Is "Challenge Ruleset" any good?
20:12:09 <ais523> most D&D groups don't stick to rules so strongly
20:12:24 <ais523> normally the wait to see what works and what doesn't work for them, and just change it round on the fly
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20:14:04 <zzo38> Yes, I'm not suggesting you do stick to rules too strongly
20:14:20 <zzo38> I'm suggesting something a bit different, these are possibly guidelines of game rules
20:14:29 <pikhq> With D&D 3.5, it's impossible to stick to the rules strongly...
20:14:30 <pikhq> Much of the rules are not well-defined.
20:15:36 <zzo38> You are not meant to stick to the rules strongly
20:15:43 <zzo38> Which is good and proper
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20:16:29 <pikhq> Well, that's an interesting parting message.
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06:00:50 <ehirdiphone> I realised something disturbing. Lazy evaluation means that (length xs) might be _|_ for one of two reasons: xs is infinitely long, or xs is _|_. Whereas strict evaluation only has the latter. This is obvious, but:
06:01:23 <ehirdiphone> It means that lazy evaluation gives your programs more opportunities to _|_.
06:02:24 <ehirdiphone> Indeed, lazy evaluation also means _|_ can go undetected, if a function chooses a certain branch, thus not evaluating it.
06:03:43 <soupdragon> the reason you get _|_ on an infinite list is because haskell is strict
06:03:48 <ehirdiphone> So if you want to minimise bugs, strict evaluation is actually quite superior.
06:03:58 <pikhq> soupdragon: ... Say what now?
06:05:07 <ehirdiphone> Such an implementation would be beyond glacial.
06:05:28 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Strict evaluation is only quite superior for bug minimisation when all else is equal.
06:05:40 <pikhq> Which, of course, it isn't.
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06:06:09 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Yes, but if you're going to the effort of using the type system to its full
06:06:35 <ehirdiphone> Lazy evaluation kinda negates that quite a bit
06:07:46 <ehirdiphone> The way you phrased that suggests that there's no language that's like haskell but strict
06:08:21 <ehirdiphone> Pretty similar. Does some things better, actually.
06:08:42 <soupdragon> yeah like being suitable for writing programs bigger than one page :o)
06:08:59 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: btw strict != impure. You can have strict monadic IO
06:09:59 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Yeah, strict != impure.
06:10:15 <pikhq> I just wasn't *aware* of any strict pure functional languages with a proper type system.
06:11:19 <soupdragon> what about strongly normalizing ones (it doesn't matter if you use strict or pure, you get the same result)
06:11:31 <ehirdiphone> so, my head is formulating a pure functional language with dependent types, first class modules (think ml functor style stuff), compile-time type inspection (type system metaprogramming), and arbritary syntactic extension
06:12:33 <ehirdiphone> while I'm piling on the cool shit, let's have region inferrence instead of a gc too. maybe.
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06:14:42 <ehirdiphone> Functors? Why not just make a compile-level function module ... -> module ...?
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06:15:02 <ehirdiphone> They are first class values (at compile time), after all!
06:15:05 <pikhq> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ocaml appears to have non-trivial functions from () -> ()...
06:15:49 <ehirdiphone> Ocaml-but-monadic is a trivial variation however
06:16:14 <pikhq> In my purely functional mind, the only meaningful functions of () -> () are \_->() and _|_...
06:16:16 <ehirdiphone> Btw why does hs do notation have "do"? It doesn't disambiguate
06:16:51 <soupdragon> what of \_->_|_ and \()->() and \()->_|)?
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06:17:20 <soupdragon> I think \()->() is different to \_->()
06:17:20 <pikhq> soupdragon: AKA _|_, \_->() and _|_.
06:17:30 <pikhq> I specified that the type is ()->().
06:17:38 <pikhq> The only value of type () is ().
06:17:46 <pikhq> ... And _|_, of course.
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06:19:43 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Well, you claimed Ocaml was pure. So, I assumed that that meant it was pure. :P
06:19:49 <ehirdiphone> I wonder why Ur/Web uses SQL. Such a fancy language with such a hobbling, antiquated data store.
06:20:10 <pikhq> You more implied it, really.
06:20:19 <pikhq> And I inferred from that that it was pure.
06:20:26 <soupdragon> try using it to program stuff instead of whatever it's meant for, it's loads of fun
06:21:51 <soupdragon> maybe I should make an esolang based on the best bits, and pretend I thought of it myself
06:22:58 <zzo38> cURL would require: Gopher protocol, Xmodem/Ymodem/Zmodem, recursive retrieval (for HTTP, FTP, and Gopher), SSH (Secure Shell), port number ranges, SMTP, POP3, NNTP, and a different one
06:23:03 <ehirdiphone> Functions, continuations, at compile time even modules and types
06:23:59 <ehirdiphone> And if you serialise [f,g,cont] I think that the environment shared by them would only be serialised once
06:26:18 <zzo38> There is something wrong with pbox service, once you post something, it will use the number for the pastebin.ca URL instead, and then it won't work. If you redirect to pastebin.ca with the same number, then you can get the correct pbox URL
06:27:32 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: You seem like the type to know this stuff - does FRP work for linear things? Like command line programs.
06:27:51 <ehirdiphone> seems like it'd basically amount to a really verbose io monad
06:30:17 <zzo38> Is it good? http://pbox.ca/1135q
06:31:18 <zzo38> Actually I am not a weird bot, and I am also not a bot
06:32:26 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Sam Hughes reference possibly detected!
06:32:30 <zzo38> But, I'm not bots, really. I didn't just make this up, it is actually real
06:32:38 <zzo38> But I did write a IRC bot, too
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06:33:45 <zzo38> See, I did wrote a IRC bot program
06:33:57 <zzo38> But I'm not the bot
06:34:42 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: soupdragon is just trollin' you to the max :p
06:35:16 <zzo38> I don't really care as much about
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06:36:49 <zzo38> PocketMonsterIRC supports some commands, try join and ro commands. You can also load separate modules, for loading a game, for example.
06:37:34 <zzo38> ro requires a dice notation
06:37:59 <zzo38> For private rolls, use rnd instead of ro other than that it is the same
06:38:10 <zzo38> For multiple rolls, you can do like: ro 3d6 6
06:38:55 <zzo38> I guess it did, I didn't write it to check range
06:39:08 <zzo38> I can see the status in the window
06:39:15 <zzo38> That's OK, I will correct it next time.
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06:41:33 <zzo38> Is the documentation for metadata in TAVSYS is good enough?
06:42:40 <zzo38> Maybe I should explain it a bit, the METADATA command takes ( id string extra -- )
06:42:46 <zzo38> Numbers are unsigned 16-bits
06:43:06 <zzo38> Is it understandable now?
06:44:22 <zzo38> It is for encoding metadata for a text-adventure game as part of a TAVSYS story file or source file
06:45:57 <soupdragon> it seems fine but there's no space for adding in stuff that hasn't been considered?
06:46:38 <zzo38> There is space, because the ID number can go up to 65535. However, it has to be defined what the ID number is, so that it can be used
06:47:58 <zzo38> TAVSYS is just a text-adventure system I am writing. I have it mostly done, except for documentation and the standard adventure library, both of which are only partially complete.
06:48:11 <zzo38> The program works, however. I did make a sokoban game in it
06:49:01 <zzo38> What does a "repo" mean
06:49:15 <soupdragon> like a directory with source code in it
06:49:29 <zzo38> OK, I will put it right now
06:50:11 <zzo38> Just wait a minute
06:50:27 <soupdragon> zzo38, I just ask because I like looking - I probably wont have much helpful things to tell you
06:50:36 <zzo38> OK, just a minute, please.
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06:55:33 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/tavsys/
06:57:13 <zzo38> There's the code of a sokoban game: http://pbox.ca/11363
06:58:25 <zzo38> A few various sets, including some I made myself. But there are only a few, because this is mostly just for example, anyways.
06:58:49 <soupdragon> zzo38 ace!! making sokoban levels is very difficult,
07:01:05 <zzo38> If you have Windows, you can download tavsys_win32glk.zip and then use tavsysc with the filename containing this codes as the first parameter, and the name of compiled file second (should be "sokoban.tav"). You can use tavsysglk to run. You might want to import the registry file it comes with, at first, but it is not a requirement.
07:02:02 <soupdragon> hehe for some reason it didn't even occur to me to try running the code to play them :D
07:04:31 <zzo38> You can also download tavsys_src.zip and compile it yourself, however, the run-time program currently requires Win32 Glk (feel free to fix it if you know how), although the compile-time program should work anywhere.
07:05:36 <zzo38> Actually, it requires not only Win32 Glk but also MinGW and the GNU C compiler. Feel free to fix these things if you know how.
07:07:57 <zzo38> Hopefully the documentation should be understandable as it is currently written (although incomplete), but you can tell me if there is something wrong with the documentation, or with the program itself, or with the standard libraries, etc
07:08:24 <zzo38> Probably when I have written the standard adventure library, next I will implement Cloak of Darkness as an example.
07:15:12 <zzo38> Do you think you would use it, once the adventure library is written? I will certainly use it, to make at least one full game
07:16:17 <soupdragon> well it seems like fun to try and get to run here (on mac right now since my gnu/linux borke) but I still haven't read it fully yet
07:19:06 <zzo38> If you can get it to run on a Mac (you can use Glk or write a different user-interface code), I would like to see the codes for doing so, I might include in my program, then.
07:20:34 <zzo38> If you get an error that a negative number of array elements is not allowed, it is because the wrong number of bits in a number of each size, you have to correct that by changing the "#define cell" so that it is a unsigned 16-bits number
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13:05:40 <AnMaster> strange, a game that has no reason to access the cdrom tries to do that
13:06:05 <AnMaster> well it's python, shouldn't be too hard to track down
13:07:58 <AnMaster> oh it's due to pygame it seems. meh
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15:25:17 <AnMaster> ais523, how goes stuff with feather?
15:26:07 <ais523> because I'm mostly sane atm, and need to stay that way for a bit
15:26:14 <ais523> I'd /almost/ even forgotten Feather existed...
15:26:41 <ais523> you can remind me again when I'm going insane anyway
15:26:50 <AnMaster> how do I know when that happens?
15:26:59 <AnMaster> it isn't very noticeable on you
15:27:10 <oerjan> ais523: i take it you have retroactively erased the memory? </duck>
15:27:28 <ais523> no, existing progress continues
15:27:37 <ais523> anyway, I've been working on Underlambda recently
15:27:51 <ais523> I recreated my Unlambda -> Underlambda compiler
15:27:55 <ais523> although it now targets Underload too
15:28:08 <ais523> atm it handles skivd`.
15:28:24 <ais523> and also q if using Underlambda as the target (and it'll eventually handle c with Underlambda as the target)
15:29:52 <AnMaster> ais523, do you plan to make it optimising?
15:30:29 <ais523> although, maybe eventually
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17:38:46 <mkry> AnMaster, are you about?
17:39:09 <ais523> he was earlier, but hasn't said anything for a while
17:39:27 <mkry> Ok, thanks, and hello.
17:40:28 <ais523> I'm busy working on Underlambda at the moment, and thinking about DownRight
17:42:00 <ais523> I've got a half-finished Unlambda -> Underlambda compiler atm, and I think you could use similar techniques to maybe compile Unlambda to Scheme
17:42:51 <ais523> the tricky part is mostly handling d, c is easy in a language that has first-class continuations
17:45:16 <ais523> hmm, I should paste what I've done so far in case I delete it by accident again (what happened to my /first/ Unlambda -> Underlambda compiler)
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17:46:38 <mkry> Hello AnMaster.
17:46:55 <mkry> I came to thank you in person.
17:47:33 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1730896
17:47:34 <AnMaster> mkry, I'm happy it helped. I also suggest you thank ehird (but he is rarely on for long nowdays)
17:47:34 <mkry> I am over my crisis, and you played a part in that, so Thanks!
17:47:53 <AnMaster> (ehird and I cooperated on it)
17:47:54 <mkry> I was going to, but do not see him here, if he appears when I am, I have my thanks for him as well.
17:48:27 <mkry> In that case, Thanks Ehird! wished I could have given it to you in person tho.
17:48:46 <AnMaster> mkry, hm there may be one thing, hours before I got your mail about seeing a therapist I contacted the police in the place I believed you lived
17:49:03 <AnMaster> I did contact them again after to tell them everything was well
17:49:09 <AnMaster> however I never got a reply to either email
17:49:22 <mkry> Not surprising, police here are very busy.
17:49:25 <AnMaster> of course I don't know if you moved since then or anything
17:49:39 <mkry> depends on where you think here is.
17:49:46 <AnMaster> mkry, I had it as Las Vegas, Nevada, (from 2008 irc logs)
17:49:53 <mkry> That is still correct.
17:50:22 <AnMaster> mkry, lets just hope police doesn't show up and mess things up then.
17:50:46 <mkry> I somehow doubt they would, knowing the police around here.
17:50:58 <mkry> But if so, I can deal with it.
17:51:10 <AnMaster> mkry, well, a bit bad timing on my part
17:51:18 <ais523> it's unlikely they'll bother, unless the first mail gets through and the second doesn't
17:51:22 <mkry> Do not worry about it, I am sure you did what you thought was best.
17:52:34 <mkry> I do certainly thank you that you were concerned enough to actually do that.
17:52:53 <mkry> I would not have expected it from somebody who barely knew me.
17:53:13 <AnMaster> mkry, well, I was trying for good samitarians (spelling?) or such, but the ones in Nevada only had phone number, not email listed
17:53:23 <AnMaster> and I was unable to call that from my mobile phone
17:53:58 <mkry> Hard to believe in this day and age they would not have had some kind of Internet contact.
17:54:21 <AnMaster> mkry, some had. but only in UK, and in a few places in US
17:54:35 <AnMaster> none in Nevada, I think there was one in Connecticut or such
17:54:36 <mkry> Well, we are kind of backwards over here.
17:55:11 <AnMaster> mkry, wouldn't know about that
17:55:18 <AnMaster> after all, you founded the internet
17:55:34 <mkry> Yes, that was back before the country fell apart.
17:55:53 <AnMaster> (of course, it could be that someone else would have done it instead if you hadn't)
17:56:02 <mkry> I am most certain of that.
17:56:53 <AnMaster> when would that falling apart had happened?
17:57:00 <mkry> Nowadays the school system has been so destroyed, we do not get smart enough people here anymore.
17:57:11 <mkry> I would say in the later 80s.
17:57:15 <AnMaster> Nixon and watergate time springs to mind as points where US was definitely rotten
17:57:35 <ais523> the US is really big and heterogenous, sometimes bits can be screwed up while other bits work perfectly
17:57:44 <mkry> That is very true.
17:58:10 <AnMaster> ais523, the issue is what parts are screwed up. How big impact they have.
17:58:29 <AnMaster> as in, Sweden is certainly screwed up in parts
17:58:31 <mkry> California is the worst, and since they are so populous they tend to spread it to the rest of the country.
17:59:18 <AnMaster> mkry, I thought CA voted democratic mostly?
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17:59:43 <AnMaster> mkry, well, less screwed up than sound of the south states at least then
18:00:05 <mkry> Most areas have their problems, hard to find a reasonable place here anymore.
18:00:46 <mkry> Sometimes I wished I had stayed in Switzerland, their society was so much better than here.
18:01:40 <AnMaster> mkry, Switzerland, well with the stuff that happened there recently I'm not sure
18:01:46 <ais523> AnMaster: the issue is that democrats aren't much better than republicans
18:01:59 <mkry> What has happened there? I have not really looked at that place since I left.
18:02:18 <AnMaster> mkry, err, not sure of the English terms, read it in Swedish newspapers
18:02:19 <mkry> Yes, both political parties have their problems.
18:02:28 <AnMaster> the recent vote about forbidding minarets
18:02:38 <AnMaster> and the majority was to forbid
18:02:45 <pikhq> Such as that it's "both" political parties, rather than "all"...
18:03:06 <AnMaster> of course, whenever this is actually legal as a law, or if it contradicts other laws is one of the things being discussed now iirc
18:03:09 <mkry> Changing world everywhere I guess.
18:03:24 <ais523> something like that in the UK wouldn't just have Muslims up in arms, but pretty much every other religion too
18:03:36 <ais523> AnMaster: I do, but wasn't aware it was Switzerland
18:05:24 <AnMaster> mkry, at least Sweden is so far quite okay when it comes to such things. Of course, there are parties against it, and they are gaining
18:06:29 <mkry> I suppose all we can is adapt to the changes, and at least voice our opinions to those in power.
18:06:39 <ais523> yep, and vote against people with opinions we don't like
18:06:54 <ais523> luckily, in the UK the politicians are mostly too busy embezzling money to screw up the country too badly
18:06:55 <AnMaster> or go found a micronation somewhere
18:07:11 <mkry> I just wonder for how long it would work.
18:07:18 <ais523> (I'm one of the few people who actually /likes/ it when they're found raiding national finances for their own pocket, it's so much less bad than what they could be doing)
18:09:53 <AnMaster> there are countries that seems quite okay thing. What about that one in South America. President is a native
18:09:58 * AnMaster tries to remember which one it was
18:16:07 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, just look at the US.
18:16:51 <pikhq> The politicians get "funding" in exchange for raiding national finances for someone else's pocket, rather than just raiding national finances for their own pocket.
18:21:38 <mkry> brb, have to reboot my machine, have a stuck process I cannot kill.
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18:39:51 <Deewiant> Re. poor education in the USA: http://redtape.msnbc.com/2009/12/when-i-published-gotcha-capitalism-two-years-ago-i-was-in-for-a-big-surprise-as-i-talked-about-systemic-hidden-fee-fraud-al.html#posts
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03:30:12 <ehirdiphone> Who wants to hear about my borderline-eso lang? :P
03:30:31 <ehirdiphone> (proof of esoness: it's more CS than haskell)
03:30:57 <ehirdiphone> but I already told you the basics yesterday :P
03:31:45 <ehirdiphone> (more to the point I wouldn't know where to start elaborating)
03:32:37 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: If you as a specific question I can prolly answer
03:34:58 <soupdragon> it is just such a contrast that I am a bit confused by it
03:35:56 <ehirdiphone> What are you referring to? his present crisislessness?
03:36:45 <ehirdiphone> he has chronic depression and saw a therapist so presumably it's not doing its chronic thing right now
03:37:55 <ais523> also, I sometimes have late Internet nights deliberately, so I can talk to americans
03:38:11 <ais523> this time it's because it's rather snowy and I didn't want to walk home in it
03:38:22 <ais523> ehirdiphone: you'd have no idea how hard it is to internationalise NetHack
03:38:32 <ais523> but mostly, it's because Germany's closer than the US
03:38:38 <ais523> and lag is pretty important when playing NetHack
03:38:42 <ais523> anyway, what language?
03:39:05 <ehirdiphone> Unnamed. Borderline eso. More CS than haskell
03:39:32 <ais523> wait, what? is that even possible?
03:40:17 <coppro> rofl Talking to Americans
03:40:28 <ais523> coppro: why is that amusing?
03:40:51 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_to_Americans
03:40:56 <pikhq> ais523: IO? *IO*? How dare you suggest such a thing.
03:41:04 <ehirdiphone> GUI and web and stuff? FRP which I won't bother explaining ATM
03:41:11 <ais523> pikhq: you can only imagine how hard it is in Feather
03:41:12 <pikhq> main is a function from String to String!
03:41:21 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Ask for an overview of the cool stuff! :P
03:41:27 <ais523> ehirdiphone: you know, you could just tell me
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03:43:06 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Dependent types. ML style module system. Type level metaprogramming. Arbritary syntactic extension.
03:43:24 <ais523> let's start with syntactic extension first
03:43:56 <soupdragon> then what's the difference between Type level metaprogramming and Dependent types?
03:44:17 <ehirdiphone> Pretty simple. Modules can add to the syntax of the language, using arbritary code to make the replacement for the syntax
03:44:51 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: The former means inspecting types themselves
03:46:04 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Do you know what dependent types are btw?
03:46:17 <ais523> I think so, but tell me anyway, because terminology is something I easily mess up
03:46:49 <ehirdiphone> In typed lambda calculus, types index on types and values index on values
03:48:10 <ais523> basically, creating types out of other types
03:49:11 <ehirdiphone> Typeclasses create values that index on types
03:49:30 <ehirdiphone> The value of the function show depends on what type it is
03:50:31 <ais523> like overloaded functions, but much more first-class and genreal
03:50:49 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Dependent types = types indexing on values
03:51:01 <ais523> oh, aha, I did know that, just forgotten I had
03:51:26 <ais523> so you can have a function that only takes even numbers as arguments, anything else is a typing error?
03:51:41 <soupdragon> okay but (=) means something dear to me
03:51:54 <ehirdiphone> Or a vector access function that enforces bounds checking
03:52:15 <ais523> sounds like what Splint tries and fails to do
03:52:36 <ais523> incidentally, I tried and failed to get my Underlambda interp fully Splint-compliant
03:52:41 <ais523> Splint seems really buggy
03:52:49 <ais523> some code I wrote had a bare block for scoping
03:52:53 <ais523> inside a switch statement
03:52:59 <ais523> if I put the break; inside the block, no error
03:53:03 <ais523> if I put it after the block, error
03:53:16 <ais523> even though the two sets of code were completely identical to any compiler
03:53:23 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Anyway, so dependent types makes programs more type Sade
03:54:03 <ais523> ehirdiphone: incidentally, this is how I think a really good BF optimiser would work
03:54:14 <ais523> trying to calculate dependent types for tape elements at different points in a program
03:55:12 <ehirdiphone> type Vararg 0 = (); Vararg n = () -> Vararg (n-1)
03:56:28 <ais523> actually, I think that's possible in Underload too, but a completely different way
03:57:03 <ehirdiphone> ais523: And this doesn't inspect n at runtime to determine the type!
03:57:17 <ais523> it's /statically/ correct
03:57:21 <ais523> we need more static correctness in the world
03:57:29 <ais523> you know, like Splint but actually working
03:57:31 <ehirdiphone> If n is say read from stdin you just must satisfy the compiler
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03:58:43 <ais523> ehirdiphone: you probably want something along the line of C++'s dynamic_cast
03:59:18 <coppro> Did someone say C++? :P
03:59:18 <ais523> incidentally, for Cyclexa I was planning what's effectively typesafe /scanf/
03:59:29 <ais523> it physically wouldn't let the user input something of the wrong type
03:59:33 <ehirdiphone> type Printf ('%':'d':xs) = Integer -> Printf xs
03:59:55 * coppro will point out that C++ has lots of static correctness... too much, really
04:00:16 <soupdragon> yeah my C++ programs are statically correct.. the problems come when you run them
04:01:02 <ehirdiphone> "Dependent types. ML style module system. Type level metaprogramming. Arbritary syntactic extension."
04:01:03 <ais523> C++ doesn't normally enforce static correctness very fully
04:01:14 <ais523> unless you go and implement integers in the type system, or whatever
04:01:35 <coppro> ais523: That comment interests me... what do you mean by that?
04:01:39 <ais523> (apparently, someone won an IOI round like that once)
04:01:45 <ais523> basically, C++ templates are Turing-complete
04:01:59 <ais523> if you write a program in them, the whole thing gets run at compile-time
04:02:19 <soupdragon> ehird, you didn't answer my question (in such a way that I can understand it)
04:02:20 <coppro> do you mean that the type system doesn't allow distinguishing of values?
04:02:37 <ais523> coppro: not in C++, but you can use types themselves effectively as values
04:02:39 <soupdragon> you can do metaprogramming with dependent types
04:02:51 <coppro> ais523: I'm very familiar with C++, I just wanted clarification :)
04:03:07 <soupdragon> why don't the dependent types subsume metaprogramming?
04:03:10 * coppro remembers the WTFBBQ entry that created a separate type for every integer
04:03:30 <ehirdiphone> data Foo = Foo { a :: Integer, b :: Integer }
04:03:47 <ehirdiphone> With dependent types alone, you could not do
04:04:03 <coppro> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/OMGWTF-Finalist-10-FerronCalc.aspx
04:04:57 <ehirdiphone> So basically inspecting and creating types programmaticslly in the type system
04:05:20 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Ask a mote specific question than what about
04:05:49 * coppro hopes to be at the 2010 IOI; possibly even as a competitor, though that seems unlikely due to stupid circumstances
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04:07:16 <soupdragon> it seems like you have some kind of quotation for types
04:07:32 <soupdragon> (and that will have to include values too, because of the dependency)
04:07:41 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: That "f Foo" was not runtime code
04:08:54 <ehirdiphone> I would write example code but not on the iph
04:11:25 <ais523> heh, you're reminding me of how every year when it comes round to exam time I realise I've almost forgotten how to write
04:11:48 <soupdragon> ais523, you do most things in your head? or on computer?
04:12:12 * coppro managed to get a computer for his English exam!
04:13:09 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I generally have plenty of paper
04:13:13 <ehirdiphone> About to write dependentkly typed code in a ruby on rails book yo
04:13:29 <ais523> I don't like putting my netbook down directly on a duvet or whatever as it blocks the air vents
04:13:37 <ais523> but it turns out it fits nicely onto an A4 pad of paper
04:13:50 * coppro is currently using a cookie tray
04:14:51 <ais523> coppro: I didn't realise cookie trays were even approximately TC
04:14:58 <ais523> ehirdiphone: ask your parents?
04:15:04 <coppro> ais523: for laptop ventilation
04:15:51 <ais523> maybe you should just wait until morning
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04:24:39 <ehirdiphone> Can you imgur.com it and link the directvlink here?
04:24:40 <ais523> incidentally, filebin.ca's getting reported as a malware site by Firefox
04:26:13 <ais523> http://imgur.com/n5amE.jpg
04:26:42 <ais523> what did you write it /on/? I hope you haven't damaged a book for our sake
04:27:56 <ais523> ehirdiphone: you might have been able to sell on that book...
04:29:20 <ehirdiphone> ais523: The book is way out of date anyway
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04:30:41 <Gracenotes> that's true. then again this laptop isn't exactly turing-complete
04:31:36 <Gracenotes> given that I can't even allocate enough space to linearly bound any given input size, I'm not quite sure it's context-sensitive
04:32:27 <soupdragon> so called "computers" don't compute anything
04:32:32 <ais523> it looks just like OCaml
04:32:52 <ehirdiphone> It's haskell but with dependent types and type metaprogramming
04:33:07 <ais523> well, they're pretty similar syntactically
04:33:18 <ais523> and I'm more used to OCaml, I think
04:33:30 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: So, "Let's start with what Haskell gets right, and go from there".
04:33:38 <ehirdiphone> ok, so the final topic is... The module system!
04:34:06 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Actual syntax will differ quite a bit
04:34:39 <pikhq> Gracenotes: MURDER.
04:34:53 <ehirdiphone> And, might be strict not lazy, both for the added safety and because iirc a general implementation of lazy FRP is unsolved problem
04:35:09 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Mine is not just for nanespaces!
04:35:10 <pikhq> soupdragon: A modern language without a module system is a crime.
04:35:23 <ehirdiphone> Indeed they are even more powerful than MLs
04:35:33 <ais523> ah, how did you make them interesting?
04:35:57 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: ... ?
04:36:01 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Will explain immediately after haskell modules bashing
04:36:12 <pikhq> We may be using words differently. Explain.
04:36:41 <pikhq> I consider that a somewhat simplistic module system.
04:36:55 <pikhq> Of course, my background is C-heavy, so... Yeah.
04:37:29 <ehirdiphone> Will use ml haskell hybrid syntax for this explain
04:39:48 <ehirdiphone> type List = module { type T; empty :: T; add :: Integer -> T -> T; length :: T -> Integer }
04:40:42 <ehirdiphone> signature { type T; empty :: T; add :: Integer -> T -> T; length :: T -> Integer }
04:41:05 <ehirdiphone> This is a signature. Signatures -- modules as types -- values.
04:42:01 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Just explaining mls stuff first for pikhq
04:42:17 <ehirdiphone> Here's an implementation of that signature
04:43:20 <ehirdiphone> module List { type T = [Integer]; add x xs = x:xs; length xs = theLanguagesLengthFunction xs }
04:43:37 <ehirdiphone> We could say that that module :: that signature
04:44:37 <ehirdiphone> So, List.T is a type. BUT! If we, in our interface file (basically just the types of things),
04:45:04 <ehirdiphone> Put module List :: signature { that signature }
04:46:50 <ehirdiphone> Because the implementation of T is not exposed
04:47:12 <ehirdiphone> It's conceivable that two modules might have the same signature
04:48:15 <ehirdiphone> So we have functors. A functor is basically a module that takes other modules as arguments
04:49:06 <ehirdiphone> functor Silly (List :: signature { long signature is long }) = module {
04:49:49 <ehirdiphone> main = print (List.length (List.add 2 foo))
04:50:37 <ehirdiphone> (extracts everything into the current module)
04:51:06 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: So we have implementation agnostic modules
04:52:01 <ehirdiphone> Combined with my type level metaprogramming (did you understand the photo?)
04:53:45 <Gracenotes> oh.. what the hell. http://www.xs4all.nl/~weegen/eelis/analogliterals.xhtml
04:53:50 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: ais523 (here is where it departs from ml)
04:54:03 <coppro> Gracenotes: one of Eelis' finest creations
04:55:04 <Gracenotes> I am feeling the joy of human creation simultaneously tinged with desperate sorrow
04:55:20 <ais523> reminds me of Acme::Don't in Perl
04:55:25 <ais523> which was a similarly silly syntax trick
04:55:36 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: That photo...
04:56:07 <Gracenotes> ais523: not sure it's on the same scale
04:56:21 <Gracenotes> you know, ehirdiphone, many of us do use pastebins
04:56:38 <ais523> Gracenotes: maybe not, but apostrophes in keyword names are still epic
04:58:13 <coppro> Don't is a syntax trick?
04:58:18 <pikhq> I just commented on it, in fact.
05:00:22 <ais523> it's equivalent to Don::t using an outdated syntax
05:00:33 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Who says functor arguments have to be modules? why not types?
05:00:36 <coppro> oh right, now I remember
05:01:58 <coppro> I only have one complaint
05:02:09 <coppro> Specifying the type independently from the value seems blah
05:02:16 <coppro> if they are effectively identical
05:02:25 <ehirdiphone> data Foo { a :: Integer, b :: String, c :: Bool }
05:03:51 <coppro> it's 4 am, you're hard to folllow
05:04:09 <pikhq> That's... Pretty spiffy.
05:04:27 <coppro> I think I get it, and it's neat
05:05:01 <ehirdiphone> The uber cool thing is how all this has no runtime penalty
05:05:09 <coppro> interesting fact I just discovered: Google appears not to offer any search suggestions for searches beginning with "sexy". "sex" is fine, as is "sexiness", but not "sexy".
05:05:32 <coppro> ehirdiphone: Actually, as much as you're going to hate me for saying this, C++ helps too
05:05:33 <ais523> ehirdiphone: pretty much
05:05:43 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Good God most of that is easily done at compile-time, isn't it?
05:05:54 <ehirdiphone> copproSpecifying the type independently from the value seems blah
05:06:22 <coppro> ehirdiphone: One of your earlier examples, if I read correctly, had you specifying the type and the value of the function redundantly
05:06:37 <coppro> if I misread, my problem, not yours
05:07:14 <coppro> [20:54:48]<ehirdiphone>type Vararg 0 = (); Vararg n = () -> Vararg (n-1)
05:07:16 <coppro> [20:55:00]<ehirdiphone>vararg 0 :: ()
05:07:18 <coppro> [20:55:10]<ehirdiphone>vararg 1 :: () -> ()
05:07:19 <coppro> [20:55:42]<ehirdiphone>Implementation if vararg itself:
05:07:21 <coppro> [20:55:52]<ehirdiphone>vararg 0 = ()
05:07:23 <coppro> [20:56:10]<ehirdiphone>vararg n () = vararg (n-1)
05:07:40 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Ah. That is only because the example is trivial
05:07:58 <ehirdiphone> In my soon after printf example you could easily see the difference
05:08:30 <coppro> just wanted to make sure that a generic functor wouldn't have to specify its type independently from the value; one of the major issues with C++'s templates
05:08:39 <coppro> hmm... I'm going to go buy some food
05:08:47 <ehirdiphone> Or just let the compiler infer the type! (yeah right, even haskell can't infer the type in all cases)
05:09:12 <ehirdiphone> (literally impossible for my Lang due to TC type system)
05:09:12 <coppro> ehirdiphone: yeah, they've added it for lambda functions but not for regular ones
05:09:26 <pikhq> Type inference is kinda impossible to do in the general case...
05:09:33 <pikhq> And even more so for TC types.
05:09:45 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Haskell sans typeclasses is inferrable totally
05:10:08 <pikhq> Haskell sans typeclasses is perhaps even *trivially* inferrable.
05:10:26 <coppro> currently, a generic add functor in C++0x currently looks like this: template <typename T, typename U> auto add (T t, U u) -> decltype(t+u) { return t+u; }
05:10:39 <coppro> (at least it's better than the current mess *shudder*)
05:10:55 <coppro> [22:08:06]<coppro>just wanted to make sure that a generic functor wouldn't have to specify its type independently from the value; one of the major issues with C++'s templates
05:11:14 <soupdragon> type inference for functions that work on GADTs
05:11:40 <coppro> ehirdiphone: lambda functions are allowed to infer types on bodies of "{ return foo;}", but IIRC this hasn't been added for normal functions
05:12:10 <ehirdiphone> copprojust wanted to make sure that a generic functor wouldn't have to specify its type independently from the value; one of the major issues with C++'s templates
05:12:42 <coppro> ehirdiphone: I just gave an example; "t+u" is redundant
05:13:12 <coppro> compare to a lambda (no polymorphic lambdas atm): "[](int t, int u) { return t+u; } // inferred return type int"
05:13:21 <coppro> the -> foo is the return type
05:13:31 <ehirdiphone> ehirdiphoneIn my soon after printf example you could easily see the difference
05:13:42 <coppro> it appears after the parameter declaration so the parameters are visible
05:13:51 <ehirdiphone> coppro: When you pinger me snout the I ferrencr only being for lambda
05:14:12 <coppro> okay, I think I'm assuming too much about your knowledge of C++
05:14:17 <ehirdiphone> Read the lines I said before with out your c plus plus stuff
05:14:40 <ehirdiphone> I was just continuing what I said with a quip
05:14:59 <coppro> how about we restart altogether?
05:15:27 <coppro> basically: Make sure that in trivial cases, it's possible to specify a function without specifying the type in a redundant manner
05:15:30 <ehirdiphone> I'm aiming to have no gc w my Lang! If it's possible
05:15:43 <coppro> gc w? garbage collection with?
05:16:27 <coppro> I've always been interested in the notion of graph-based collection
05:16:50 <ehirdiphone> It'd, among other things, let small integers use a full word
05:16:51 <coppro> specifically with the goal in mind that an object is destroyed as soon as its references become invalid
05:17:04 <ehirdiphone> No need for a tag so the gc knows what's a pointer
05:17:30 <coppro> anyway, I'm actually leaving to get food now; if you have anything important to say, ping me or comment when I get back
05:17:44 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: If you can do it, then it would be quite nice.
05:18:15 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: A cool thing arising from all this sweet language nectar:
05:18:50 <ehirdiphone> You can malloc some memory, access it at will, realloc it, etc, with no runtime penalty, SAFELY.
05:22:01 <ehirdiphone> ptradd :: (n::Int) -> MemBlock m -> MemBlock {n-m}
05:23:41 <ehirdiphone> access :: (n::Int) -> MemBlock m -> {n < m} -> Int
05:24:02 <ehirdiphone> called as (access n block) if no proof is required
05:24:37 <pikhq> So, you could use this language much like C. ... Except you're not going to shoot a foot with it.
05:25:36 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: I'm targetting performance because Ur has quite a bit of this stuff and generates objects with little overhead, lots of speed and little memory usage in it's domain
05:26:08 <ehirdiphone> Dependent types = can make more compile time assumptions
05:26:27 <ehirdiphone> And if you did some wizardy GHC style optimisation too?
05:27:18 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Because of the annotations given to the compiler, optimization would be (relatively) easy.
05:27:42 <ehirdiphone> Hey, if I had no gc and small ints took up the word arithmetic would be 1 instructiob
05:27:46 <pikhq> Much less "checking to be sure this is safe", more with the "just transform it to the equivalent".
05:29:56 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Iphone bitch. Be glad im not using text speak
05:30:41 <ehirdiphone> A compiler that does all the things I want will prolly be like 20,000 lines of haskell or more :-(
05:31:05 <ehirdiphone> Maybe even 50,000—70,000 depending on compiler smartness
05:31:35 <ehirdiphone> 100,000 if I want readable error messages :P
05:34:32 <ehirdiphone> I don't even want to write the compiler in another language. Too many opportunities for sweet uses of the lang's features
05:34:58 <pikhq> If you absolutely must write it in a different language, must be Haskell.
05:35:16 <pikhq> It just makes language implementation... Feel right.
05:36:45 <ehirdiphone> (advantages of ML: Usually faster, module system (think e.g. compiler is a functor taking backend module), if I choose to make the language strict it matches the semantics better, that just feels... more right)
05:37:59 <ehirdiphone> It occurs to me that a worthy Emacs mode would be a mode to end all modes
05:38:25 <ehirdiphone> Probably the largest piece of elisp ever. :P *shudder*
05:39:27 <ais523> will it allow impureness?
05:45:17 <ehirdiphone> Well, maybe if you have "pragma unsafe" in your module and import Internals.
05:45:51 <ehirdiphone> But every module using yours must be pragma unsafe too
05:46:15 <ehirdiphone> coppro: I said interesting things right after you left
05:46:39 <ehirdiphone> do I have to repeat them or do you have sufficient scrollback?
05:47:38 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Yeah, if you have well-defined evaluation order, "pragma unsafe" is perfectly reasonable.
05:48:32 <ehirdiphone> That's just how you do forall in dependently typed langs
05:51:11 <ehirdiphone> So! I hope you all now worship my language and know it will subsume and supersume every other language forever.
05:51:15 <coppro> ehirdiphone: very interesting
05:51:30 <ais523> ehirdiphone: not until it has a really good impl
05:51:33 <ehirdiphone> Or, more seriously, I hope you all now think my language is pretty cool.
05:52:04 <ais523> ehirdiphone: does it compile easily into all TC esolangs?
05:52:17 <ais523> or does it not want to tread on Underlambda's design space?
05:52:28 <coppro> ehirdiphone: region inference
05:52:30 <pikhq> REMOVE ALL OTHER LANGUAGES. THEY ARE INSUFFICIENTLY COOL.
05:52:49 <ehirdiphone> ais523: No, but you can have a compile time BF compiler.
05:53:04 <coppro> one thing I want to clear up before I talk about the language as a whole; by "dependent types" you mean a function whose type can change based on the value of its arguments, correct?
05:53:38 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Not just functions. It is simply: types can take values as arguments
05:54:04 <ehirdiphone> Full explanation is way back in the scrollback
05:54:38 <ehirdiphone> Careful. It's been an hours-long explanation.
05:55:24 <ehirdiphone> Btw I haven't thought of a syntax at all yet.
05:55:35 <ehirdiphone> Just been blending haskell and ml for this talk
05:55:46 <coppro> ehirdiphone: so, basically, template<int I> vs. template<typename T>?
05:56:22 <coppro> (except applicable to all types, not just a very small subset of those available)
05:58:06 <ehirdiphone> And pass it to a function expecting an even number
05:58:07 <soupdragon> you can erase all types into a NULL value, and then eval the real values like an untyped language
05:58:30 <ehirdiphone> Perhaps it can infer it if you do a branch
05:58:47 <soupdragon> (because you can't do case analysis on types)
05:59:01 <coppro> so... attempting another gross oversimplification here... encoding the range of values into the type?
05:59:21 <ais523> more like set of values, only it's allowed to be infinite
05:59:35 <ais523> and you can have loads of types which are similar except in the value sets, automatically generated
05:59:58 <ehirdiphone> You just have to manually satisfy them if the compiler can't
06:00:15 <coppro> The type of an object might be "even integer", whereas another object might be of the type "prime integer"; true or false
06:00:17 <ehirdiphone> If we need an even number, pass a proof that it's even
06:00:52 <coppro> ok, now I'm really confused
06:01:32 <ehirdiphone> Don't worry, it's pretty intuitive in practice
06:01:41 <coppro> There's a certain ACC quote which has never appeared more applicable to the situation
06:01:50 <ehirdiphone> Feels like you're doing the impossible though
06:02:15 <coppro> Like, I understand the notion
06:03:34 <ehirdiphone> Basically, your job as the programmer is: when the compiler can't make inferrences about your values so that it does not matter what they actually ARE at runtime because the type is satisfied no matter what,
06:04:02 <ehirdiphone> (which is just... Writing the code that shows it, basically)
06:04:41 <coppro> like, I get the net effect
06:05:20 <ehirdiphone> Even I don't know the actual inferrence algorithms. I'm going to defer breaking my head that much until I absolutely must
06:05:21 <coppro> it's statically-enforced value control
06:05:52 <ehirdiphone> coppro: But also value liberator, remember the printf?
06:07:00 <ehirdiphone> Lets you express stuff you can't otherwise
06:07:30 <coppro> Now, I admit I don't program in functional languages as much as I'd like, so bear with me here
06:08:03 <coppro> this looks to me a lot like pattern-matching being done at compile time, with an error if nothing matches
06:08:35 <ehirdiphone> Can you elaborate? My mind is rejecting that metaphor.
06:08:57 <coppro> My pattern matching experience is with Erlang, it may be different elsewhere
06:11:23 <coppro> in Erlang, you could do something like printf ([%%, %d, RestOfString], [SomeInteger, RestOfArgs]) -> printAsInteger(SomeInteger), printf(RestOfString, RestOfArgs).
06:11:50 <ehirdiphone> The type was pattern matching on the string
06:12:23 <ehirdiphone> It was just a type with the kind (type's type) String -> Type
06:12:35 <coppro> but now, let's take a scanf example
06:12:56 <coppro> in that case, you are pattern matching on the string and affecting the return type of the function
06:14:07 <coppro> but scanf is a more interesting example
06:14:21 <coppro> but so basically your idea is to be able to check this at compile time
06:14:40 <coppro> and complain if there's any chance there might be an error
06:14:54 <coppro> rather than simply waiting around and hoping things come out right
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06:15:36 <pikhq> His plan is to have the type of printf be dependent upon the string given as its first argument.
06:15:41 <pikhq> His plan is to have the type of printf be dependent upon the string given as its first argument.
06:15:47 <pikhq> (repeated for sake of ehird)
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06:16:09 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: ... After you left?
06:16:17 <pikhq> You've got some crazy log-reading skills.
06:16:40 <coppro> it appeared to me to occur right after he arrived
06:17:29 <ehirdiphone> copprorather than simply waiting around and hoping things come out right
06:17:38 <coppro> ehirdiphone: well... basically, suppose I do printf(some_user_string, 3)
06:18:17 <ehirdiphone> That would simply give a type inferrence error
06:18:56 <ehirdiphone> if s == "%d" then printf s 3 else return ()
06:19:43 <ehirdiphone> Not sure where the proof would go for printf actually
06:19:44 <coppro> I think we're wasting our time
06:19:52 <coppro> yeah, printf would be a nasty proof
06:20:24 <ehirdiphone> Just prove that (printf s) :: Integer -> IO ()
06:20:27 <coppro> well, now I know we agree about the basics
06:21:28 <ehirdiphone> Don't pass a user string to printf, you dumb fuck. ;)
06:21:45 <coppro> Sadly, that's when printf becomes most useful
06:21:56 <coppro> localization, specifically
06:22:22 <coppro> It may be loaded from a file
06:22:37 <coppro> for 30 different languages? no thanks
06:22:53 <coppro> anyway, we're getting sidetracked
06:24:09 <coppro> we're getting sidetracked
06:24:17 <coppro> my basic question is how this relates to the notion of types
06:24:18 <ehirdiphone> big_error = printf "OLE OLE SUPER ERROR %d"
06:24:36 <coppro> using one of your examples, suppose I have a function that takes an integer that must be even
06:24:39 <ehirdiphone> You could use syntactic extension to make that nicer for the translators
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06:25:43 <ehirdiphone> With the latter hopefully being inferred by the compiler
06:26:05 <coppro> this makes it feel even more Erlangish to me
06:26:52 <coppro> Erlang: my_function (I) where is_int(I) and I mod 2 == 0 -> whatever
06:28:47 <coppro> but so, for the purposes of the definition, which type is dependent on which value? The type of my_function is dependent on the value of n
06:29:29 <coppro> ok... so what is a "proof"?
06:29:35 <ehirdiphone> coppro: The type of the poop argument is dependent on the value of the number argument
06:29:47 <coppro> ehirdiphone: but the poop argument doesn't really exist
06:30:16 <coppro> btw, can you just type in a pastebin rather than a picture?
06:31:12 <ehirdiphone> evenClub :: (n::Integer) -> {Even n} -> AwesomeParty
06:31:30 <coppro> also, btw, ZREO finished OoT finally; it's awesome
06:31:57 <coppro> not talking about anything relevant
06:32:31 <ehirdiphone> Since the third param must be of type Even 2
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06:32:56 <ehirdiphone> Obviously, the poop param is erased during compilation
06:33:13 <coppro> that's an interesting way for it to be thought of, and I wonder if it's the correct one, but at least I understand now :)
06:34:17 <ehirdiphone> The issue is that you need to make a type Even which is a drag BUT
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06:34:49 <ehirdiphone> type IsTrue True = PoopHaven; IsTrue False = NoValuesForYou
06:36:20 <ehirdiphone> coppro: So, hopefully you at least grok it as well as I do now.
06:36:41 <coppro> ehirdiphone: I now understand.
06:36:54 <ehirdiphone> The whole language pretty much clicked into place combining seeing Ur with my past musings
06:37:08 <coppro> I question whether it would be more effective to attempt to accomplish the goal through a different mechanism
06:37:35 <ehirdiphone> Explaining it is the single most difficult part
06:37:52 <coppro> specifically, of encoding a known subset of values into the type of an object
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06:38:17 <ehirdiphone> Using it? Pretty easy. And a dependently typed lambda calculus is just a few lines of code onto a normal typed one
06:38:53 <ehirdiphone> If you mean what I think Iean that cannot accomplish remotely as much sscdependent types
06:39:03 <coppro> I think they're equivalent
06:39:24 <coppro> (note, this is in the "this is a theory" form of "I think", not the "I'm pretty sure I'm right" form)
06:39:34 <ehirdiphone> ais523: maybe dependent types are the key to feather :P
06:40:55 <coppro> basically, in your evenClub example, what you've actually done is included a "virtual" type (in the sense that the caller doesn't noticed it) to the signature
06:41:04 <ehirdiphone> coppro: #agda is full of people who will know more than I btw if I don't grok it
06:41:17 <coppro> ehirdiphone: just wait
06:42:00 <coppro> I'm not trying to debate the way Agda does
06:42:07 <coppro> I'm trying to find another approach to the same solution
06:42:09 <ehirdiphone> Then that would break if you remove the {}s
06:42:40 <ehirdiphone> Remember dependent types are more than just yes no
06:42:42 <coppro> my idea is that { Even n } is not seen as an extra parameter, but rather a constraint
06:42:52 <coppro> ok, restate printf for me
06:44:00 <coppro> ok, I think I get your point
06:44:10 <coppro> ehirdiphone: how much do you know about C++ templates?
06:46:00 <coppro> ehirdiphone: do you know what enable_if is?
06:48:10 <coppro> ok, well, enable_if is a template taking a boolean and a type; if the boolean condition is satisfied, a member type exists; if the condition is not satisfied, the type does not exist
06:48:32 <coppro> this is in many ways similar to the use of a predicate in { Even n }
06:49:18 <coppro> true, but the principle is the same
06:49:35 <coppro> I can if I consider only templates and not the C++ runtime
06:49:37 <ehirdiphone> The whole model I said is to make that work
06:50:20 <coppro> well, allow me to continue
06:50:57 * coppro tries to remember where he's going wit hthis
06:51:23 <coppro> in the case of enable_if, you can implement arbitrary conditionals assuming appropriate predicates exist
06:51:38 <coppro> but there is another way of accomplishing the same task, and that is with restrictions on the arguments
06:52:01 <coppro> there was a proposed feature for C++0x called concepts that would do exactly this; it would provide the ability to constrain template arguments
06:52:32 <coppro> on one level, it's largely sugar, but the underlying notion is different
06:52:57 <coppro> sure, but templates exist as a compile-time system
06:53:08 <ehirdiphone> What you're doing is taking a hard problem
06:53:21 <ehirdiphone> Explaining the solution to an easy problem
06:53:26 <coppro> I'm wondering if dependent types can be implemented in the same way, with compiler-managed contraints rather than predicates
06:53:37 <coppro> the whole C++ thing was an analogy; it's not perfect
06:55:11 <coppro> tbh, I think I need to see a bigger example of your language before I can explain this more clearly
06:55:28 <coppro> since it's hard to explain without a concrete base to work from
06:55:44 <coppro> I don't know if there's an advantage
06:56:05 <coppro> if I sought an advantage in everything I did, I wouldn't be here chatting, I'd be finished my backload of homework
06:56:29 <ehirdiphone> So... Replacing an existing concept with a less simple one. And you have to keep the old one anyway.
06:56:39 <coppro> I don't think you'd need to keep the old one
06:57:08 <coppro> that's part of my issue; I'd need to see a complete example of printf
06:57:15 <coppro> not just "here's my signature kthxbye"
06:57:53 <coppro> not enough, at least not me looking through scrollback
06:58:11 <ehirdiphone> It's right after the printf signature you dolt
06:58:49 <soupdragon> [] ++ ys = ys ; (x::xs) ++ ys = x::(xs ++ ys).
06:58:51 <coppro> ah, I see, I think I just misunderstood the synta
06:59:14 <soupdragon> _+_ : N -> N -> N, _++_ : Vector A n -> Vector A m -> Vector A (n + m)
07:00:55 <coppro> okay, hang on, I'm going to repaste this
07:01:19 <coppro> 19:58:20 <ehirdiphone> printf :: (fmt :: String) -> Printf fmt
07:01:21 <coppro> 19:58:39 <ehirdiphone> type Printf [] = IO ()
07:01:24 <coppro> 19:59:33 <ehirdiphone> type Printf ('%':'d':xs) = Integer -> Printf xs
07:01:25 <coppro> 20:00:05 <ehirdiphone> type Printf (x:xs) = Printf xs
07:01:46 <coppro> so where does the type replacement come in to play here?
07:03:10 <coppro> I misunderstood the way functions work
07:03:35 <coppro> specifically, "a b" is a left-associative operator that executes a on b
07:03:55 <coppro> for multi-arg functions, there's syntactic sugar in the declaration that creates a forwarding function with less arguments
07:04:48 <coppro> as I said, my functional programming experience is sadly lacking :(
07:05:06 <coppro> anyway, this helps clear up a lot, though all it ends up doing is making my idea a lot harder to express
07:05:33 <coppro> absolutely there's currying there
07:05:38 <soupdragon> I don't see what currying has to do with any of it
07:06:32 <coppro> yeah, it returns a function
07:07:07 <coppro> printf "%d" gives me an Integer -> IO, correct?
07:07:47 <coppro> oh wait, that was soupdragon
07:07:57 <coppro> ok, nvm. Your nicks have a too-similar length
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07:09:02 <coppro> pooop: Okay, I'm going to try again and try to explain what I was trying to explain before, now with more knowledge of where it isn't relevant
07:09:15 <pooop> coppro: By nickname laws I think you have to have sex with me now. If I was poop I'd need copro
07:09:21 <pooop> But pooop is coppro
07:09:32 -!- coppro has changed nick to Cu.
07:09:54 <pooop> Cu: EVADING THE LAW??
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07:10:46 <ehirdiphone> Repeat the line you said before the poop shit (which was crap)
07:10:53 <Cu> Okay, I'm going to try again and try to explain what I was trying to explain before, now with more knowledge of where it isn't relevant
07:11:26 <Cu> is there any name for the use of {} in functions?
07:11:32 <Cu> that I can use to conveniently refer to it?
07:11:43 <ehirdiphone> Agda probably has one. Lets call it zooping
07:11:54 <ehirdiphone> It bears some resemblence to the nomic use.
07:12:40 <ehirdiphone> Zoop is the argument or the action of Ingerring a value?
07:12:58 <Cu> so, when you zoop an argument, what you are doing is providing an imaginary argument that the compiler magically inserts based on some value
07:13:19 <Cu> imaginary in the sense that the user never sees it
07:13:29 <Cu> otherwise, 100% real
07:13:36 <ehirdiphone> It exists. If you want to you can use it in the function
07:14:54 <ehirdiphone> But {} does not require the type to be dependent.
07:15:01 <Cu> wait, let's step back, I just realized there's something I don't get
07:15:13 <Cu> Even n is a family of types, one for each integer, all sharing the same values?
07:15:46 <ehirdiphone> All the even ns share the same value, poop
07:16:11 <ehirdiphone> I.e you cannot have a value of type Even 1
07:16:47 <Cu> so, my question is does this mechanism, specifically when used for zooping, have any advantage over a predicate that is used as part of the type matching?
07:17:07 <Cu> yessir, I get that
07:18:00 <ehirdiphone> Also, no, except for being simpler, having an obvious way to pass proofs, and being the same mechanism that things like printf use
07:18:14 <ehirdiphone> All of which make me very skeptical of your idea.
07:18:32 <Cu> ok, so, ignore q1, that's sort of academic at this point as I'm trying to simplify it
07:18:44 <Cu> point 1, whatever
07:18:53 <Cu> point 2, I don't quite understand
07:18:59 <Cu> point 1 = simpler
07:19:07 <Cu> point 3, I'm not sure is related
07:19:43 <Cu> I was sort of missing that bit
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07:19:51 <ehirdiphone> I.e. If there is an {} arg at this position, {} passes one In explicitly
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07:20:22 <soupdragon> if you defined Even : nat -> * as a data type
07:20:28 <coppro> lack of information is a dangerous thing
07:20:31 <soupdragon> you could maybe erase the index to get Even : *
07:20:44 <soupdragon> and then you've got a data type that represents even numbers
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07:21:15 <coppro> Ugh, just discovered a major flaw with ZREO's "official" OoT release
07:21:22 <coppro> gonna have to complain
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07:22:10 <ehirdiphone> type Even n | even n = Poopy; type Even _ = Lame
07:22:22 <soupdragon> data Even : nat -> * where EZ : Even Z ; ES : Even n -> Even (S (S n))
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07:22:49 <soupdragon> data Even : * where EZ : Even ; ES : Even -> Even
07:23:11 <ehirdiphone> writing a boring type for every constraint
07:24:12 <coppro> ZREO = Zelda Reorchestrated, an awesome project to redo Zelda music in awesomeness
07:24:20 <coppro> they released the OoT soundtrack today
07:24:40 <coppro> except half the Ocarina songs are Ocarina-only, and half are full music
07:24:50 <coppro> one way or the other I could see, but half-and-half?
07:25:15 <coppro> (I highly recommend downloading it, btw)
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07:26:43 <ehirdiphone> My language will have not only infix operators
07:27:30 * coppro doesn't hold his breath
07:28:43 <coppro> well, agda allows you do define things pretty much however you want
07:29:06 <ehirdiphone> Did you research Agda in the time since I mentioned it? :P
07:29:29 <coppro> ehirdiphone: yes. This is the Internet. I'm pretty confident you do the same thing from time to time.
07:29:44 <coppro> Perl 6 is the only other language I could think of offhand that allows the definition of new infix, prefix, and postfix operators
07:30:28 <coppro> you also tend to keep your mouth shut when something you don't understand comes up, thus increasing others' perception of you (I do this too, but you're way better at it)
07:30:48 <ehirdiphone> I just have that you can name a function (infix/prefix/postfix symbols)
07:31:29 <coppro> ehirdiphone: I mean something you don't understand AND can't readily Google
07:31:59 <coppro> ehirdiphone: ok. The only issue is the syntactical ambiguities that can arise
07:32:07 <coppro> if you allow all three to be overloaded on the same operator
07:32:20 <coppro> two of the three is fine
07:32:30 <ehirdiphone> infix + :: {n::Type} -> {Num n} -> n -> n -> n
07:33:11 <ehirdiphone> prefix ? :: {t::Type} -> Ref t -> SomeMonad t
07:33:37 <ehirdiphone> coppro: I'd just use operator precedence to disambiguate
07:34:00 <coppro> I forget what method Perl 6 uses... something evil
07:34:12 <ehirdiphone> (you can define your own precedence and left right association)
07:34:31 <ehirdiphone> ehirdiphoneinfix + :: {n::Type} -> {Num n} -> n -> n -> n
07:34:59 <coppro> you defined your own keyword there?
07:35:17 <coppro> what does {n::Type} mean?
07:35:22 <coppro> inference of n's type?
07:35:37 <ehirdiphone> coppro: You know what (n::Int) means right?
07:35:56 <coppro> magic dependent value?
07:36:01 <coppro> I thought of it as "named n"
07:36:27 <coppro> {} means infer the type, and let me refer to it as Type?
07:38:07 <coppro> so t becomes whatever the argument's type is?
07:38:26 <coppro> could I do {n::t::Type} ?
07:38:27 <ehirdiphone> If we pass it an argument if a certain type
07:38:33 <soupdragon> This sentence is syntactically unambiguous.
07:39:21 <ehirdiphone> infix + :: {n::Type} -> {Num n} -> n -> n -> n
07:39:59 <coppro> it's an infix that appears to take 3 arguments?
07:40:55 <coppro> oh, yeah, I'd worked that bit out
07:41:48 <coppro> for some reason it was particularly plain to me that {Num n} meant that the type n is some number
07:42:17 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Were you around for the module system stuff?
07:42:35 <coppro> ehirdiphone: no, but I am familiar with the notion of metatypes, which is why I think that bit came so easily
07:43:27 <coppro> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.12.29
07:43:36 <coppro> yeah, I didn't think they were related
07:43:40 <ehirdiphone> So I can findvwhere it is; it really is one of the best parts of the language IMO
07:43:42 <coppro> that didn't quite come out right
07:43:53 <coppro> was that the bit about open Foo?
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07:45:00 * coppro wonders why he feigns stupidity in this channel
07:45:23 <soupdragon> probably so that guys have a chance to show how smart and alpha they are
07:47:22 <coppro> ah, now I remember another question I had, and realized you'd answered it
07:47:57 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Btw there's a blip in the module talk
07:48:56 <coppro> right, I remembered that vaguely
07:49:17 <coppro> whether you would have full-on type genericism
07:49:43 <coppro> specifically, the ability to make an entire interface dependent on another type
07:49:56 <coppro> which, clearly you can do by generating modules from functors
07:50:22 <coppro> java's genetics consist of a whole bunch of un-evolution
07:50:36 <coppro> yeah, I just wanted to make sure you'd have a mechanism for that
07:50:51 <coppro> (and actually, C++ templates is closer than Java generics, but w/e)
07:52:59 <ehirdiphone> I have been talking about this Lang for so long. Wow.
07:54:32 <ehirdiphone> coppro: I'd give you an awesome explanation of one of the things the Lang will use but I've only really thought it out verbally :(
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08:08:04 <coppro> I did have one thing to say to you, but I forgot
08:08:39 <ehirdiphone> coppro: I recorded a ~four minute explanation of the thing but it'd be in multiple parts
08:08:55 <ehirdiphone> Can you handle my unbroken voice????????//::
08:09:56 <coppro> as opposed to hemming-and-hawing?
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08:13:43 <ehirdiphone> Wait for all three parts to arrive then set them up in a playlist or sth
08:17:03 <ehirdiphone> My speaking skills are improving, not many ums or pauses in that
08:18:48 <coppro> unless you're trying to sell me replica rolexes, no
08:21:06 <coppro> thanks for spamming some random guy
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08:22:00 <coppro> ais523: go to messages, hit propose or accept trade, fill in the form
08:22:51 <ais523> thanks, got it, and that's a /really/ weird channel-bounce
08:22:55 <ais523> cross-server, even cross-protocol
08:23:18 <coppro> too lazy to type /msg ais523 on a chat without tab-complete
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08:24:20 <ais523> coppro: heh, I was just thinking that myself
08:24:54 <augur> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tea%2C+earl+gray%2C+hot
08:25:18 <coppro> ehirdiphone: I was giving him advice for KoL
08:26:01 <coppro> that's sorta the point
08:26:24 <ais523> augur: a rather low-tech MMO
08:27:18 <coppro> mostly I play it for the fun in /games, to be honest
08:27:20 <ais523> it's a moderate amount of strategy + a lot of boredom
08:27:25 <coppro> (though it probably won't appeal to most everyone here)
08:27:52 <coppro> but it's a nice distraction
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08:32:51 <ehirdiphone> incidentally, I realised that ais523 hates collectively-covering-costs cooperatives. Let's say membership dues = cost/members. This way, everyone pays the same money, and nobody gets rich. By recommending the service to someone who then joins it, the recommender pays cost/(members (members+1)) less each $interval, where members is the number of members before the new member is recruited
08:33:18 <ehirdiphone> so this fair, collectivist cooperative is considered to be evil by ais523 :)
08:33:22 <ais523> ehirdiphone: it's not quite hate, it's more untrust
08:34:01 <ais523> if someone recommends something to me and stands to gain from that, I treat it as a paid advert, rather than as freely-given advice
08:34:07 <ais523> doesn't mean it's unwelcome or bad, just untrustworthy
08:34:07 <ehirdiphone> ais523: So do you not distrust if nobody makes a profit?
08:34:47 <ais523> yes... but suppose you have two identical cooperatives
08:34:51 <ais523> except that you're in one of them
08:35:03 <ais523> the question here, I suppose, is why should I join the one with you in rather than the other one?
08:35:11 <ais523> now, suppose the other one has one more member but is otherwise identical
08:36:02 <ehirdiphone> So you distrust profitless, collectivist cooperatives.
08:36:24 <ehirdiphone> Favouring instead recommendations that involve a business making a handy profit.
08:36:31 <ais523> I distrust recruitment drives that would drive me towards one of them rather than a different one of them
08:36:55 <ehirdiphone> ais523: But that's how they WORK! evryone pays an equal amount
08:37:07 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I don't hate the collective itself
08:37:17 <ais523> I just mistrust /recommendations of which collective to join/
08:37:24 <ais523> from a member of the collective itself
08:37:36 <ais523> I might still favour the entire concept over a for-profit company
08:38:27 <ehirdiphone> If soneone thought another service was superior they wouldn't reccommend theirs just for profit. They'd SWITCH to that alternative THRN reccommend them
08:38:41 <ehirdiphone> Doing otherwise is ridiculously nonsensical
08:42:03 <ehirdiphone> Wonder if anyone's registered http://chicken.coop yet :D
08:45:16 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Do you want my lovely voice explanations of frp, coppro iz ded :<
08:45:46 <ehirdiphone> THEY EXPLAIN IT WITH THE GRACE OF AN OSTRICH
08:45:55 <ais523> ehirdiphone: oh, that's a good argument, about switching
08:46:12 <ais523> for something that's really switchable, I'll consider that to rebut my points
08:46:25 <ais523> also, no, that's me asking you to explain frp before I decide whether I should ask you to explain it or not
08:46:53 <ais523> it's an upside-down T?
08:47:00 <ehirdiphone> That's bottom, your friendly nonterminating value!
08:47:17 <augur> ehirdiphone: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Mudkipz
08:47:38 <augur> bottom can also mean nil or false, depending on the language in question.
08:48:02 <ais523> it's the return value of a function with an infinite loop in
08:48:22 <augur> ehirdiphone: in logic its not uncommon to find bottom for false
08:48:43 <ais523> it's kind-of a different sort of return value...
08:48:51 <ais523> what about throwing an exception past the caller to a handler outside?
08:50:36 <ais523> ok, so this explains bottom, which almost certainly has its own unicode char
08:51:18 <ais523> actually used for the geometric meaning, "perpendicular to"
08:51:23 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottom_type
08:51:54 <augur> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottom_element
08:52:50 <augur> says common lisp's nil is a bottom.
08:52:58 <augur> which im not sure i buy, but whatever
08:53:29 <ehirdiphone> You're a bottom. Er, I think this conversation just strayed into territory I don't want it to stray into.
08:53:57 <augur> it seems like Bottom can be non-termination, but it can be other things as well
08:54:23 <augur> and other things that might be conceived as non-termination in some abstract sense
08:54:28 <augur> e.g. not returning a value at all
08:54:30 <ais523> ehirdiphone: err, I don't see why audio's relevant
08:55:21 <augur> ehirdiphone: i love you!
08:55:26 <augur> in that special way
08:55:27 <ehirdiphone> I'm not transcribing 4 minutes of speech :D
08:55:50 <ais523> ugh, filebin.ca is still malware-blocked
08:56:00 <ais523> I could just get around the block, but it feels wrong to do that somehow
08:56:01 <augur> that would be wrong
09:00:59 <augur> your voice is girly
09:01:12 <augur> so i imagine people into girls like your voice
09:03:48 <augur> youre still adorable
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09:15:56 <ehirdiphone> I was enjoying talking about that language
09:19:08 <ehirdiphone> 4 hours 12 minutes. I talked about it continuously for about that long. Wow.
09:19:26 <augur> which language is that
09:20:21 <augur> can you summarize it please
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10:31:37 <ehirdiphone> the sort of thing ais523 would think of if he just generated ideas without honing on interesting things, I think
10:32:02 <ais523> actually, I do do that, just most of the boring stuff gets discarded straight off
10:32:06 <ais523> and I never tell anyone then forget
10:32:30 <ehirdiphone> An Emacs X11 WM that actually makes the windows into Emacs buffers.
10:32:54 <ehirdiphone> (the xemacs wm thing is just a wm written in elisp. Lame.)
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10:33:50 <ais523> ehirdiphone: heh, Blender works a bit like that
10:33:55 <ais523> at least, it seems to have stolen the Emacs WM
10:38:13 <ais523> although, what would the modes be
10:39:22 <ehirdiphone> with the oblig menus with actions and settings
10:40:25 <ais523> C-x 5 2, rather than C-x 2
10:40:33 <ais523> to create a floating rather than docked window
10:40:56 <ehirdiphone> that would just open an emacs frame in an emacs buffer :D
10:41:53 <ais523> your applications are buffers
10:41:59 <ais523> you can swap them in and out of windows at will
10:42:18 <ais523> ehirdiphone: you mis-emacs
10:42:34 <ehirdiphone> X11 windows would be drawn in their own BONAFIDE emacs buffer
10:43:02 <ais523> that's what I meant too
10:43:14 <ehirdiphone> Root window = emacs, no window management done on it PFC
10:43:23 <ais523> one window produced by an application under a normal WM = one Emacs buffer
10:44:13 <ehirdiphone> but there shall be only One emacs window; for lo, that is what the Prophet did spaketh unto ya
10:44:54 <ais523> C-x 2 is two emacs windows already
10:45:01 <ais523> you need emacs windows to put the buffers in
10:45:04 <ehirdiphone> "If Emacs be the heritor of thou'st windows, is it not therefore a Sin to have Emacs begat itself?"
10:45:17 <ais523> /every/ window is an Emacs window
10:45:28 <ehirdiphone> There shall be only one Emacs window, and it shall be the root.
10:45:40 <ais523> I was talking about emacs window
10:45:48 <ais523> how would you do extra emacs frames, though?
10:46:08 <ais523> but that's losing possibilities you have with emacs's wm at the moment
10:46:19 <ais523> the ability to create a floating frame that works independently of the others
10:46:26 <ais523> it's tiling and floating
10:46:36 <ais523> hmm... I wonder if C-x 5 o works?
10:47:18 <ais523> hmm... this is a tricky one
10:48:15 <ehirdiphone> It should be recognised as a heresy unique to the Xfolk; lacking as the result is in Emacs mannerisms,
10:49:46 <ehirdiphone> in the model here emacs frames "don't exist"
10:50:18 <ehirdiphone> Frames become an implementation detail; only one, as the root window.
10:50:40 <ais523> hmm, but a floating-mode window makes absolutely no sense in that case
10:50:47 <ais523> from Emacs' point of view
10:50:59 <ais523> you couldn't select it, you couldn't close it, you couldn't create it
10:51:05 <ehirdiphone> it is "in" emacs because emacs' size is that of the screen
10:51:23 <ais523> but it's in a different frame
10:51:25 <ehirdiphone> also, if you focus it the invisible corresponding buffer is too
10:51:38 <ais523> thus it isn't there at all
10:51:52 <ehirdiphone> Windows are Emacs' forte. Frames it thinks of not.
10:51:53 <ais523> it isn't in the root frame because you can't get to it by recursively picking top, left, etc... windows
10:52:12 <ais523> e.g. it would make no sense for C-x o to /cycle/ to it
10:52:20 <ais523> and if it did, what would C-x 2 do? or worse, C-x 1?
10:52:34 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Its like a buffer not in the frame
10:52:51 <ais523> ehirdiphone: oh, in that case, it wouldn't render at all
10:53:01 <ais523> so you'd have no way of focusing on it
10:53:10 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Yes it would because we coded it that way
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11:08:30 <ehirdiphone> 4 hrs 12 mins continous talk about my language
11:08:32 <oerjan> just searched for my name today
11:09:18 <ehirdiphone> Your emacs buffer list would be polluted. Cool for window managing
11:09:20 <ais523> what? I'm about to go home to sleep
11:09:22 <oerjan> alas, i usually only read the whole log when it is short
11:09:39 <ais523> ehirdiphone: really? I often have over 30 or so buffers open
11:09:45 <ais523> I rarely kill them, you see
11:09:55 <ais523> and don't use the buffer list at all, except by mistake
11:10:23 <ais523> with asterisks around it if it's not meant to be saved
11:10:34 <ais523> yes, you should be able to save buffers even if they contain windows
11:11:04 <ais523> otherwise the semantics are wrong
11:11:12 <ais523> you could hook it up to cryopid or something, I suppose
11:11:15 <oerjan> i did see the comment about it being more CS than haskell. which actually leaves me suspicious if you are over your head, since my understanding is that creating a sound type system more advanced than haskell's (or even equal) is _hard_
11:11:17 <ehirdiphone> **reddit - what's new online! - Mozilla Firefox**
11:11:26 <ais523> or ideally, just have the programs that run be easy to escape
11:11:39 <ais523> ehirdiphone: Firefox is a big example of something that should save
11:11:40 <ehirdiphone> oerjan: I know it is possible. Agda and Ur do it.
11:11:56 <ehirdiphone> ais523: You can't coherently save tetris f.e.
11:11:56 <ais523> after all, it has a save-tabs-on-closing option, this would be the same thing
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11:12:08 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: yeah, but i'm assuming there were phd theses involved :D
11:12:09 <ais523> ehirdiphone: really? I've seen pieces of hardware that could
11:12:22 <mycroftiv> cant you just make sure that you are within the formal boundaries established by hindley-milner typing?
11:12:31 <ais523> anyway, I really had better go
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11:12:37 <oerjan> of course, more power to you if you can pull it off
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11:13:04 <mycroftiv> i havent read the immensely huge backscroll so i wont make you explain it all again if you already have
11:13:48 <mycroftiv> actually i guess i lost most of my backscroll from my mouse button forkbombing me
11:14:00 <ehirdiphone> oerjan: maybe I'll just submit the spec and compiler as a phd thesis to MIT or somewhere without being admitted :D
11:15:57 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: it is the soundness proof of your type system i am worried about. not that i know how to do those myself
11:16:43 <oerjan> unless you simply steal an already existing one, you'll have to redo it, and i understand it's quite technical stuff
11:16:45 <ehirdiphone> oerjan: If type checking can bottom out surely it's unsound by some definition
11:17:14 <oerjan> i mean in the cannot-go-wrong sense, i think
11:18:15 <soupdragon> oerjan the fun with dependent types is you need to interleave the value normalization proof
11:18:44 <ehirdiphone> maybe I'll contract a phd out to do the proof :)
11:19:16 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: what soupdragon said. non-termination is fine, except i also recall reading that dependent typing has trouble if your _types_ can bottom out, because then you need to actually evaluate the proofs in the runtime program, you cannot remove that stuff during compilation
11:19:43 <oerjan> because if a proof of well-typed-ness can bottom out, then it is invalid
11:19:56 <oerjan> um proofs of types, i guess
11:20:14 <oerjan> that is not dependent.
11:20:47 <ehirdiphone> oerjan: I was thinking of using a total subset
11:22:53 <ehirdiphone> tbh I think my type system is likely incredibly similar to say agda
11:23:52 <oerjan> i recall some mention of using a monad to encapsulate non-termination
11:24:20 <soupdragon> codata Computation A where Now : A -> Computation A ; Later : Computation A -> Computation A
11:24:36 <oerjan> then it would presumably be fine, since types are not in that monad, or something
11:24:45 <soupdragon> then you can race omega many of these for a fixed point
11:26:09 <oerjan> um shouldn't the _result_ be an A for some option?
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11:27:20 <ehirdiphone> Hmm my type system is probably closest to epigram
11:27:37 <ehirdiphone> programming more than proofy and haskellsimilar as it is
11:27:40 <oerjan> it was for epigram i heard that mention, i think
11:28:12 <oerjan> except it was not something implemented, iirc
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11:28:32 <soupdragon> I used it in haskell to write (even more) lazy programs
11:28:33 <ehirdiphone> It just makes code awkward having a partiality monad :p
11:28:35 <oerjan> just an idea for making epigram practically TC
11:28:57 <ehirdiphone> at some point I surrender safety for practicality
11:29:28 <soupdragon> yeah I have no idea how to do even simple proofs about termination for the partiality monad
11:30:22 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: i thought epigram was a total language
11:31:20 <soupdragon> I think it's a weird question, the function space is total but you can still define things like turing machines, mu-recursive functions and their operational behavior
11:31:25 * oerjan may very well be confused, has only read discussions (on ltu mostly?) and that was long ago
11:31:51 <oerjan> well one step of a turing machine computation is total...
11:32:14 <soupdragon> yeah you can take the transitive closure of it though
11:33:16 <ehirdiphone> anyway ur works and only has one phd behind it
11:33:53 <soupdragon> Ur isn't actually dependently typed is it
11:40:45 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: it does have type-level programming that constructs values. I'd be surprised if it wasn't dependent
11:41:33 <soupdragon> soem error to do with gmp or something
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12:24:25 <cheater> has anyone got a working implementation of Piet or a similar lang?
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14:09:41 <Sgeo> Hm, ehird's not here?
14:10:18 <Sgeo> ehird, if you see this, know that the penultimate story of Fine Structure has been published.
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20:19:19 <oerjan> <cheater> has anyone got a working implementation of Piet or a similar lang?
20:19:36 <oerjan> have you checked the author's home page at http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/tools.html ?
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23:59:14 <coppro> http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/
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00:08:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, I do know he made several others
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00:10:04 <AnMaster> http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/bit.html <-- heheh
00:19:31 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Whenever <-- I wonder if it is TC.
00:21:37 <AnMaster> coppro, I would say "probably, except I can't see how to do infinite memory"
00:24:29 <coppro> N(1) is a value with infinite possible values
00:24:42 <coppro> and the program can be terminated by making the condition false
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01:49:01 <ehirdiphone> http://underhanded.xcott.com/?p=18 It's back, bitches!
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01:55:20 <pikhq> Hmm. Contemplating how best to do that...
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02:05:14 <ehirdiphone> Write the program correctly with dependent types to make sure it's correct. Also, use type system metaprogramming to generate repetitive parts of the code. Introduce a mistake into the types that causes the metaprogrammer to output the wrong code.
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02:09:41 <ehirdiphone> I wonder how feasible getting X clients to draw in the right pixels over an Emacs frame is.
02:10:09 <ehirdiphone> Also, does X let you focus two windows at once...?
02:10:44 <pikhq> I seem to recall that X allows you to embed a client into another client...
02:11:27 <ehirdiphone> Yes, but that'd involve hacking Emacs to let buffers be X embedders instead of text buffers.
02:15:46 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: If I make an Emacs X11 WM you can run even less software under X! XD
02:16:19 <ehirdiphone> Ratpoison? Pah! Can ratpoison play tetris? It is an inferior imitation of Emacs!
02:16:56 <ehirdiphone> Switching to buffers in the same way as windows in one step would be sweet, actually.
02:18:21 <ehirdiphone> If you used one of Emacs' terminals and ERC you could run just Emacs(with wm)+conkeror without missing out on anything.
02:19:05 <ehirdiphone> Could even hook Conkeror up to the Emacs minibuffer and hide its own. XD
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02:53:42 <zzo38> I played a game, called "Return to Ditch Day", in which there is a puzzle where you have to type up to sixteen characters (0-9+A-F) only on a computer (a Commandant 64), and you have to make it put output the same as the input.
02:54:04 <zzo38> I eventually figured it out, each number means a command, and you have to write a quine program.
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02:56:24 <zzo38> I earned 50 bonus points for doing so. It is not necessary to solve that puzzle to complete the game, but I got 50 extra-credit points, which are not added to the normal score, but is listed separately instead.
02:58:51 <zzo38> "Return to Ditch Day" is really a good computer game, you might try it one time
02:59:02 <zzo38> (I have not completed it yet)
03:00:00 <zzo38> (I have not yet won the game, but I liked the parts I have played so far)
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04:06:40 <zzo38> Is the introduction good? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/html/main.html http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/icoruma/intro.irm
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04:22:47 <ehirdiphone> http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html
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04:23:25 <ehirdiphone> have it run a terminal or w/e with the actual inif
04:27:46 <pikhq> I don't know of any reason why X *couldn't* be init, actually.
04:29:43 <ehirdiphone> Well... If x goes down the kernel will panic.
04:30:36 <ehirdiphone> Runs X in a loop, if it fails to start at some point wait a minute before trying again.
04:31:01 <pikhq> Or just accept the panic.
04:31:46 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: X as init, running Emacs running COMINT or w/e running the init scripts.
04:33:07 <ehirdiphone> Fill in your details, hit RET, and Emacs disappears. Then YOUR emacs appears.
04:33:45 <ehirdiphone> Voilà: the entirely X11Emacs-based Linux system.
04:35:29 <ehirdiphone> Wonder how hard it is to get emacs to ignore all non-editing commands.
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04:45:37 <ehirdiphone> http://www.haxney.org/2009/08/its-alive.html hmm. Prior art.
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05:26:04 <coppro> hahaha... man, that's a bug in the Criminal code
05:29:08 <coppro> There's a complex set of exceptions for when sexual activity with minors is okay, but this doesn't apply to indecent exposure to minors
05:59:39 <Sgeo_> Did ehird see what I wrote?
05:59:44 <Sgeo_> Doesn't matter now, I need sleep
06:00:45 <Sgeo_> No indication that he saw anything
06:03:01 <coppro> ehird will see what yo uwrote
06:03:34 <Sgeo_> coppro, I checked the log, doesn't look like he said anything related to what I wrote
06:03:42 <Sgeo_> Then again, I was only checking for my own name, so
06:03:43 <Oranjer> hey ehird you're a big stinking patooe
06:03:51 <coppro> so he wouldn't have read it form there
06:03:54 <Oranjer> I wonder if he will see that
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06:45:33 <coppro> Is it sad that one of the things I look forward to most with the New Year is a webcomic update?
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08:13:38 <ehirdiphone> my mind buzzes too much, i need a stop thinking button
08:13:54 <ais523> you could try sleeping
08:14:16 <ais523> or do something that requires a lot of concentration, say certain computer games
08:15:12 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: doubtful I'll be any good. Quite tired but go on
08:15:44 <soupdragon> Five girls each make two statemens, one true one false
08:16:09 <soupdragon> * Betty: ``Kitty was second in the examination. I was only third.''
08:16:09 <soupdragon> * Ethel: ``You'll be glad to hear that I was on top. Joan was second.''
08:16:09 <soupdragon> * Joan: ``I was third, and poor old Ethel was bottom.''
08:16:09 <soupdragon> * Kitty: ``I came out second. Mary was only fourth.''
08:16:09 <soupdragon> * Mary: ``I was fourth. Top place was taken by Betty.''
08:17:44 <ehirdiphone> great, so the exercise is "remember basic prolog syntax"
08:17:57 <soupdragon> you're not allowed to solve it with code
08:18:14 <soupdragon> also the obvious prolog program doesn't work
08:18:26 <ehirdiphone> which in this case is equivalent to "remember the syntax for or"
08:19:12 <soupdragon> because of <ehirdiphone> great, so the exercise is "remember basic prolog syntax"
08:19:44 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: how come, it's just a set of constraints (p | q)
08:20:20 <soupdragon> I mean, if you interpret the first rule as like, (Kitty = 2, Betty \= 3);(Kitty \= 2, Betty = 3)
08:20:51 <soupdragon> that wont work alone, you'd have to start with permutation(Girls,[1,2,3,4,5])
08:21:26 <soupdragon> but that algorithm is bad because you can't interleave the generator
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08:23:02 <ais523> three-valued logic in Prolog is annoying
08:43:30 <ais523> it's when you have true/false/unknown as logic values
08:43:48 <ais523> (or in the case of a data bus true/false/I've been told to shut up so other people can talk)
08:44:54 <soupdragon> prologs not really about values though more about provability I think
08:48:10 <ais523> but, sometimes you want to write programs in it :)
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09:04:50 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: using views is so cheating for SQL esolanging
09:05:22 <ais523> IMO, you can use any feature of a language not designed for programming if trying to program in it
09:06:04 <soupdragon> you can just paste the definiton of the view to get rid of it...
09:06:30 <soupdragon> can you actually use views as functions?
09:07:52 <ehirdiphone> I may be mistaking views for sth else. Tired. Relink your paste
09:11:30 <ais523> wait, you're trying to solve the problem in /SQL/?
09:11:49 <soupdragon> and prolog http://www.pasteit4me.com/94034
09:11:53 <ais523> what a great choice of language
09:13:11 <soupdragon> what other languaes should I do it in?
09:13:45 <soupdragon> I did it in a really stupid way with CHR too
09:13:51 <ais523> ehirdiphone: what do you mean?
09:14:15 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I first had problems parsing your sentence
09:14:27 <soupdragon> statement(first(G)) ==> statement(not(second(G))), statement(not(third(G))), statement(not(fourth(G))), statement(not(fifth(G))).
09:14:38 <soupdragon> and statement(P), statement(not(P)) <=> false.
09:14:38 <ais523> yep, you mean it works relationally, modified/enhanced so that it's TC
09:14:46 <ais523> ehirdiphone: what's your opinion on cut?
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09:15:04 <ais523> I think it's nicely eso
09:15:25 <ehirdiphone> ais523: is there an elegant theoretical model with cut
09:15:57 <ais523> there is a common-way-to-implement which probably has a theoretical model behind it
09:16:12 <ais523> ofc it's more elegant without, but with it's nicely interesting
09:16:34 <ais523> (incidentally, Borland Turbo Prolog had "nonlocal cut"; there was a built-in predicate that did a cut /somewhere else/ in your program)
09:16:37 <soupdragon> both stack and stream implementations have a (relatively) simple implementation of cut
09:16:39 <ais523> (which I think is truly inspired)
09:20:40 <ais523> Borland Turbo Prolog was strongly typed, but very inferior
09:20:45 <ais523> in that it didn't let you assert predicates at al
09:20:50 <ais523> and thus missed out on half the fun
09:21:10 <coppro> Borland Turbo X is usually inferior :(
09:21:14 <ais523> (in case you wanted to be able to do that, the compiler shipped with a Prolog interp written in Turbo Prolog, and told you to use that)
09:21:34 <coppro> hmm... we should make an esolang
09:21:44 <coppro> based on Borland's compilers
09:21:49 <ais523> coppro: well, it tended to be inferior in language terms, but faster
09:22:07 <ais523> hmm... try imagining something that's similar to MySQL but actually achieves its design goals
09:22:11 <ais523> it's that sort of concept
09:22:26 * ehirdiphone tries to get interesting strong prolog types
09:22:40 <coppro> also, clang is getting spell checking
09:24:28 <ehirdiphone> begat(god,adam). begat(adam,eve). begat : ?atom,atom
09:24:54 <ehirdiphone> basically just the number of params, those
09:26:25 <ehirdiphone> So how can we get interesting types? As in what do we actually include in the types
09:26:29 <soupdragon> there's lots of types in prolog already
09:27:02 <soupdragon> like CHR you can define algebraic types, which helps the compiler
09:27:32 <soupdragon> type succ (((i -> i) -> i -> i) -> ((i -> i) -> i -> i)) -> o.
09:28:24 <soupdragon> type flatten list (list A) -> list A -> o.
09:29:15 <soupdragon> curry (fix F \ (abs X \ (A (fst X) (snd X) (prp X)
09:29:15 <soupdragon> (fix F \ (abs Y \ (abs Z \ (A Y Z truth
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09:30:46 <ehirdiphone> because compose((lambda),X). would be... 'interesting'
09:31:44 <ehirdiphone> hmm I wonder what you'd call the operation of making two definitions in prolog
09:32:01 <soupdragon> :- chr_type tree ---> empty ; leaf(int) ; branch(tree, tree).
09:32:11 <soupdragon> :- chr_type list(T) ---> [] ; [T | list(T)].
09:32:24 <soupdragon> :- chr_type color ---> red ; blue ; yellow ; green.
09:32:41 <ehirdiphone> like I guess it's just fall through on failure
09:37:53 <ais523> reminds me of Reddit talking about StackOverflow talking about the --> operator in C++
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12:11:25 <soupdragon> boolean operators are just tables from a{0,1}^2
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12:23:06 <AnMaster> ais523, will you be around during midnight? If not I guess I should say happy new year in advance
12:23:27 <ais523> probably not, and happy new year back again
12:24:24 <ais523> soupdragon: I think it's been standardised a bit awkwardly, but that it's a decent language for accessing relational databases, and not really good for anything else
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12:27:34 <AnMaster> soupdragon, SQL: I don't know of any standard following implementation
12:27:52 <AnMaster> there probably is one, iirc Mimer SQL manages fairly well
12:28:00 <AnMaster> but even it is not 100% standard following iric
12:28:23 <AnMaster> (reason I know about the wierd software called Mimer SQL is that it was used in a database course at university)
12:28:53 <AnMaster> (I much prefer postgresql if I have to use one)
12:31:33 <AnMaster> soupdragon, is that really true? As in official?
12:32:42 <soupdragon> http://www.sqlite.org/images/syntax/create-table-stmt.gif
12:32:53 <soupdragon> http://www.sqlite.org/images/syntax/select-core.gif
12:32:57 <soupdragon> http://www.sqlite.org/images/syntax/single-source.gif
12:33:22 <AnMaster> I always liked those SQL syntax "flow-chart" sort of thingies
12:33:31 <AnMaster> never seen it used for any language but SQL
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14:04:36 <soupdragon> is it possible to implment RLE with SQL?
14:50:53 * soupdragon has figured it out and recommends this aas a fun challenge
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14:51:54 <AnMaster> soupdragon, standard SQL? or extensions?
14:52:10 <AnMaster> soupdragon, using procedural SQL?
14:52:29 <AnMaster> soupdragon, how did you do it them
14:53:01 <soupdragon> I'll paste the code somewhere when it's done
14:53:26 <AnMaster> soupdragon, using temporary tables? Which DBMS are you using btw?
14:53:50 <soupdragon> I was using sqlite but now I'm going to try DB2 Express because I heard that's better
14:54:30 <soupdragon> It can be all one select statement: But I use the temporary table to overwrite the starting sequence so you can run it in a loop (by reloading the file over and over)
14:58:36 <soupdragon> except installing DB2 is way beyond me at this point
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15:26:51 <soupdragon> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Look-and-say_sequence#SQL
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16:01:32 <AnMaster> soupdragon, I would use postgresql
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18:10:08 <ais523> happy australian mailman reminders day!
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19:46:37 <jpc> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gibberish <--- new esolang I just started. Anyone have any thoughts?
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20:40:06 <jpc> oh, and I have an interpreter for it that I need to post
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22:51:48 <AnMaster> happy new year (in 9 minutes, but will be away with family then)
22:57:10 <Slereah_> Fuck this year, I'm leaving it and never coming back!
23:45:13 -!- AnMaster has set topic: hubert who? http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Happy new year.
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23:56:07 * SimonRC will hit the big 1262304000 in just a few minutes
23:56:25 <SimonRC> or new year in the One True Timezone
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23:57:42 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, happy new year 57 minutes ago!
23:58:02 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, also not five minutes. you said that at 00:57:07
23:58:12 <AnMaster> no way you are in a timezone offset by two minutes to GMT ;P
23:58:42 <ehirdiphone> iPhone does not do ntp surprisingly enough
23:58:59 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, but phones tend to set themselves after the network in some other way
23:59:13 <AnMaster> at least mine ask sometimes if I want to set the clock from the network time
23:59:46 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, O2? An SGI computer?