←2009-12 2010-01 2010-02→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:03 <AnMaster> tor dec 31 23:59:39 UTC 2009
00:00:09 <AnMaster> fre jan 1 00:59:44 CET 2010
00:00:17 <AnMaster> fre jan 1 00:59:53 CET 2010
00:00:18 <ehirdiphone> Hope my sleep schedule is unfucked for tomorrow a little bit. Doctor Who at 18:40
00:00:19 <AnMaster> fre jan 1 00:59:55 CET 2010
00:00:22 <AnMaster> fre jan 1 00:59:58 CET 2010
00:00:23 <AnMaster> fre jan 1 00:59:59 CET 2010
00:00:25 <AnMaster> fre jan 1 01:00:00 CET 2010
00:00:27 <AnMaster> happy new year!
00:00:28 <coppro> Happy New Year!
00:00:29 <AnMaster> (UTC)
00:00:34 <AnMaster> coppro, hah I was closer!
00:00:34 <ehirdiphone> O2 is a British mobile netvork
00:00:42 <ehirdiphone> Lol my first line
00:00:45 <coppro> curses
00:00:46 <ehirdiphone> Of thr new year
00:00:51 <ehirdiphone> Is about o2
00:02:05 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, haha
00:02:05 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:02:29 <AnMaster> coppro, hm does UK have any tradition of new years promises?
00:02:36 <coppro> no clue
00:02:38 <coppro> I'm not in the UK
00:02:47 <AnMaster> coppro, if so, what did "<ehirdiphone> O2 is a British mobile netvork" mean as a new year's promise
00:02:50 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
00:02:52 <ehirdiphone> POOP
00:02:54 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone:
00:02:56 <coppro> haha
00:02:57 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> coppro, hm does UK have any tradition of new years promises?
00:02:59 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> coppro, if so, what did "<ehirdiphone> O2 is a British mobile netvork" mean as a new year's promise
00:03:07 <ehirdiphone> New years resolutions
00:03:07 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:03:09 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, ^
00:03:18 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, ah is that what you call them there
00:03:22 -!- augur has joined.
00:03:35 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I heard DNS servers make a lot of them
00:03:39 <ehirdiphone> ie "I WILL STOP BEING A FAT FUCK W THE LATEST FAD DIET"
00:03:45 <ehirdiphone> "for a week"
00:03:51 <AnMaster> yeah
00:03:53 <AnMaster> exactly
00:03:54 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Eh?
00:03:58 <ehirdiphone> DNS?
00:04:02 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, sorry very bad pun
00:04:16 <AnMaster> resolution - resolve - DNS server
00:04:22 <ehirdiphone> Ouch.
00:04:55 <ehirdiphone> It ain't 2010 til clog rolls around.
00:05:06 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I'm *pretty* sure that "resolution" "resolve" both come from the same "base" or whatever you call it
00:05:11 <AnMaster> "ordstam" in Swedish
00:05:12 <ehirdiphone> Yes
00:05:18 <ehirdiphone> Root
00:05:22 <AnMaster> ah
00:05:25 <AnMaster> here it is "word trunk"
00:05:26 <AnMaster> literally
00:05:59 <AnMaster> aaaaand that hides another pun that only works in Swedish
00:06:03 <AnMaster> and is very very far fetched
00:06:16 <AnMaster> at least I only think it works in Swedish
00:06:38 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, or do you have a term for criminals and such which is close to "shy of light" or such
00:06:43 <AnMaster> would be some sort of slang
00:06:57 <ehirdiphone> Not ringing a bell.
00:07:00 <AnMaster> meh
00:07:04 <AnMaster> then it only works in Swedih
00:07:09 <AnMaster> Swedish*
00:07:10 <ehirdiphone> DUCK ADVENTURES
00:07:16 <AnMaster> huh?
00:07:19 <ehirdiphone> Yes.
00:07:29 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, IDGI
00:07:32 <AnMaster> sadly
00:07:41 <ehirdiphone> I DUCK get it
00:07:55 <Sgeo> ehirdiphone, when wil you be off your iPhone to read logs?
00:08:09 <Sgeo> *will
00:08:10 <Ilari> Diets don't work. You need lifestyle change. :->
00:08:17 <ehirdiphone> I love taunting Sgeo.
00:08:24 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, ouch
00:08:26 <ehirdiphone> Ilari: yep
00:08:40 <AnMaster> that was about the "I DUCK get it"
00:08:51 <Sgeo> ehirdiphone, second to last Fine Structure story was released
00:09:05 <SimonRC> ooh, I will keep an eye on them
00:09:11 <ehirdiphone> Ilari: recent events have turned me more and more to your views on commonly accepted nutrition...
00:09:27 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo: I read what you said days ago.
00:09:31 <ehirdiphone> :D
00:09:45 <ehirdiphone> I haven't been reading FS.
00:10:25 <Sgeo> ehirdiphone, I recall that you stated that you wanted to read it when it's all done. Well, it's going to be done soon
00:10:38 <ehirdiphone> Alrighty then
00:11:48 <ehirdiphone> Reading list, unordered: The Culture books, The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect, Fine Structure, finish reading all the Discworld books
00:12:48 <ehirdiphone> Speaking of books, here's my review of "And Another Thing…": very high quality fan fiction. Make of that what you will.
00:12:52 <Sgeo> Oh, remember when I said TMoPI had sex and violence? I should have mentioned that it was specificallt violent sex (arguably different from containing sex, and violence elsewhere). Most of it's consensual though
00:13:19 <ehirdiphone> "Detail is IMPORTANT!"
00:13:21 <Sgeo> *specifically
00:13:24 <Sgeo> lol
00:14:04 <ehirdiphone> Violent consensual sex? a-ok. BUT I DRAW THE LINE AT VIOLENT RAPE
00:14:19 <ehirdiphone> (Nonviolent rape is okay, DUH.)
00:14:25 * SimonRC goes to bed.
00:14:49 <Sgeo> I said mostly. There is nonconsensul violence
00:15:08 <ehirdiphone> Consensual violence!
00:15:12 <SimonRC> I agree that And Another Thing is not very Douglas Adams-y
00:15:16 <ehirdiphone> Not kinky or anything.
00:15:22 <SimonRC> from the bits I have heard
00:15:25 <ehirdiphone> Just "PUNCH ME"
00:15:37 <ehirdiphone> SimonRC: It's a... Good imitation.
00:15:52 <ehirdiphone> The book is good but it's not Adams
00:15:54 <SimonRC> I found some things a bit out-of-character
00:15:58 <SimonRC> but maybe that's just me
00:15:58 <ehirdiphone> I enjoyed it
00:16:04 <Ilari> Some have said about books about human biochemistry: First look at the diagrams of what leads to what. Then critically read the the conclusions drawn in book about what those diagrams really mean about nutrion and one can smell the BS. No idea if its true as I haven't seen such books.
00:16:05 <ehirdiphone> SimonRC: Agreed
00:16:08 <ehirdiphone> Good
00:16:12 <ehirdiphone> Not exceptional
00:16:32 * SimonRC goes to bed.
00:17:24 <ehirdiphone> Ilari: you wouldn't believe the nutrition crap the state does here (first hand experience)
00:19:09 <ehirdiphone> happy tens, all
00:19:15 <ehirdiphone> eso onwards
00:19:17 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info").
00:21:50 <Ilari> ... I used geoIP lookup on that address, and it appears to be in UK. I agree, UK govt seems absolutely worst on pushing nutrion...
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01:02:42 <soupdragon> fffffffffff
01:03:04 <soupdragon> how come I'm the only one that can't load esolangs.ord
01:03:06 <soupdragon> org*
01:09:26 <Sgeo> Try http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ ?
01:10:16 * Sgeo pokes soupdragon
01:12:02 <soupdragon> ty
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01:28:58 <FireFly> Urgh
01:29:01 <FireFly> That reminds me
01:29:09 <FireFly> gotta read And another thing
01:37:19 <uorygl> Ilari: indeed, ehird is a Britisher.
01:37:58 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Ilari: recent events have turned me more and more to your views on commonly accepted nutrition... <-- what are those views?
01:38:49 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Reading list, unordered: The Culture books, The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect, Fine Structure, finish reading all the Discworld books <-- I'm currently reading "The folklore of Discworld"
01:38:52 <AnMaster> very interesting
01:39:01 <AnMaster> a bit like the science of & books
01:39:24 <AnMaster> (where & = same as in sed)
01:40:21 <soupdragon> what's The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect
01:40:33 <soupdragon> This online novel contains strong language and extreme depictions of acts of sex and violence. Readers who are sensitive to such things should exercise discretion.
01:40:56 <uorygl> Hey, that's a novella!
01:41:05 <soupdragon> what does that mean?
01:41:07 <AnMaster> soupdragon, I have no clue what it is
01:41:14 <AnMaster> I was about to google that myself
01:41:30 <soupdragon> The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect is a 1994 novella by Roger Williams. It deals with the ramifications of a powerful, superintelligent supercomputer that discovers a method of rewriting the "BIOS" of reality
01:41:40 <soupdragon> so it's like the matrix + AI
01:41:46 <soupdragon> sounds cool :D
01:42:57 <Ilari> AnMaster: Short version: Almost everything about official nutrion recomendations is utter garbage and not scientific.
01:43:20 <soupdragon> and what is fine structure?
01:43:29 <soupdragon> "A novella is a written, fictional, prose narrative longer than a novelette but shorter than a novel"
01:44:21 <AnMaster> Ilari, okay
01:45:04 <AnMaster> Ilari, I do think "you (probably) need (at least a few) of those vitamins" could pass as valid though
01:45:21 <AnMaster> and "not eating at all probably will be terminal for your health"
01:45:42 <Ilari> Yes, that's why I said 'almost everything', not 'everything'.
01:45:56 <soupdragon> I think that "if you only eat one thing you become very unhealthy" has been backed up time and time again
01:46:19 <AnMaster> Ilari, I'm quite sure that the best general advice would be: balanced diet, not too little, not too much, and some healthy exercise
01:46:24 <AnMaster> I have yet to try it ;P
01:46:25 <soupdragon> so saying that you need variety has a scientific basis
01:46:51 <AnMaster> (the exercise part that is)
01:46:53 <soupdragon> trying to figure it out exactly, that's probably where the pseudoscientists come in and tell you that you need to buy their product
01:47:26 <Ilari> The need from variety comes from two things: 1) There is no food that wouldn't have very skewed nutrient profiles, so one needs multiple such profiles to average out, and 2) You can't eat only one thing for very long.
01:47:49 <AnMaster> Ilari, make a balanced pill!
01:48:23 <AnMaster> Ilari, all you need for today except the fibre (with the fibre it would be a VERY large pill)
01:48:31 <AnMaster> thus make a separate fibre drink or such
01:48:45 <AnMaster> oh and: make it in different flavours
01:50:00 <Ilari> Vitamins and various other micronutrients (various types of simple ions) are needed, but how much depends also on what else is eaten. Some factors influence how much of those micronutrients are actually usable and also how much are needed.
01:50:48 <AnMaster> Ilari, you mean like (iirc) you need fat to be able to process some amino acids(sp?)?
01:51:23 * AnMaster is studying CS, not biology, so sorry if any of this doesn't quite pass as scientificly correct
01:51:28 <Ilari> At least fat is required for proper absorption of some vitamins.
01:51:38 <AnMaster> Ilari, maybe that was what it was
01:51:53 <soupdragon> I tried to study a bit of biology but it just got so difficult so fast
01:52:08 <soupdragon> problem was that I don't know any chemistry
01:52:25 <AnMaster> soupdragon, at least it isn't chemistry: fuck those moles
01:52:45 <AnMaster> CS is a lot nicer
01:52:48 <soupdragon> but you need chemistry as a prereq
01:52:50 <AnMaster> and less messy
01:53:02 <soupdragon> yeah a lot less mess
01:53:06 <soupdragon> no frogs legs
01:53:28 <AnMaster> hm what is the English term for someone who is not very practical, more theoretical
01:53:29 <Ilari> Then there are foods that contain stuff that just plain interferes with absorption of vitamins and especially metal ions.
01:53:44 <AnMaster> fumbling may or may not be included
01:54:12 <AnMaster> Ilari, iirc milk for example interferes with vitamin c?
01:55:04 <Ilari> Never heard of that. IIRC, the most well known example is full-grain wheat and iron...
01:55:19 <AnMaster> Ilari, oh hm
01:56:26 <AnMaster> Ilari, anyway I was pretty certain that milk and orange juice didn't go together from a vitamin absorption point of view
01:56:29 <Ilari> Probably there are lots of substances that either promote or interfere with absorption of micronutrients.
01:58:05 <Ilari> Then one ocassionally sees something promoted for boosting intake of some micronutrient, even if said thing doesn't contain much of that micronutrient at all.
01:59:29 <AnMaster> Ilari, never heard of that
02:00:23 <Ilari> I have at least heard about full grain products and B12 vitamin. Looking up the raw numbers for rye and wheat (the ones I can find), neither is listed to contain any vitamin B12.
02:01:18 <AnMaster> mhm
02:01:26 <Ilari> Sometimes it isn't that blatant and the foods promoted actually have the micronutrient in question, but are pretty poor sources of it. Like say Potatoes and vitamin C.
02:02:49 <Ilari> And the worst cases are where promoted food item actually interferes with absorption of micronutrient in question.
02:05:32 <uorygl> Hey, I was browsing Reddit when I happened upon a comment by ehird.
02:06:22 <uorygl> This sort of thing has happened before.
02:06:24 <Ilari> One should eat foods that are rich in all kinds of micronutrients and then top it off with high-quality protein sources + energy sources. Adding protein and energy is much easier than adding micronutrients.
02:06:27 <AnMaster> Ilari, iirc beer contains B12. Isn't beer made from grain? Or is that whisky?
02:06:52 <Ilari> AnMaster: There's also yeast involved...
02:06:59 <AnMaster> Ilari, oh good point
02:07:12 <AnMaster> Ilari, I don't drink alcohol at all though
02:07:33 <Ilari> Except that isn't listed to contain B12 either...
02:08:44 <Ilari> AnMaster: "Beer, lager, strong 5- 5.5% volume". The nutrion facts database I use doesn't list any vitamin B12 for that...
02:09:56 <AnMaster> Ilari, hrm, does it actually list B12 for any ?
02:10:08 <AnMaster> Ilari, and what db is it
02:10:55 <AnMaster> Ilari, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_vitamins#B_vitamin_sources
02:11:08 <AnMaster> how trustworthy that is I don't know
02:11:51 <Ilari> AnMaster: Fineli. The requirement for getting to top 100 for B12 there seems to be 4.1micrograms / 100g.
02:12:37 <Ilari> 0.6micrograms / 100g for getting into top 500.
02:14:40 <AnMaster> Ilari, "fineli"?
02:14:49 <AnMaster> is that the db you mean?
02:15:34 <Ilari> Yes.
02:16:53 <AnMaster> mhm
02:16:54 <Ilari> It of course doesn't have decent data on trans fats (only total trans fats), but the #1 there for trans fats (excluding milk products, which shouldn't affect what #1 for it is) is "Catering margarine pastry 80% fat". Listed at 6.7g / 100g.
02:18:19 <AnMaster> Ilari, good thing I always loved milk. And lactose intolerance is rather rare in Scandinavia :)
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02:20:40 <Ilari> There "Beef lard" is shown to contain more trans fats than "Catering margarine for baking, 80% fat". Except that the kind of trans fats in those is likely totally different.
02:20:48 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, see log, I replied to you
02:20:57 <ehirdiphone> "Note that aptitude is the preferred program for package management from console both for package installations and package or system upgrades." -Debian FAQ. I was unaware.
02:21:12 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, you didn't know? huh
02:21:14 <Ilari> ehirdiphone: And yes, seeing you come UK, I agree that nutrion advice is really crazy there.
02:21:48 <Ilari> *from
02:21:52 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, if log is hard to read on phone I can paste it
02:22:23 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, also did you see mkry's visit here to thank us?
02:22:35 <AnMaster> some days ago now
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02:22:37 <AnMaster> or day ago maybe
02:24:58 <ehirdiphone> uorygl: What comment?
02:25:08 <Ilari> Then coeliac disease is quite funky. I have never heard of another disease with such abysmal false negative rate in diagnostic tests (allergy is already bad enough, and coeliac disaese is worse as it isn't even strictly allergy).
02:25:19 <ehirdiphone> Ilari: I've had more than "advice"...
02:25:33 <ehirdiphone> But that is for my life story.
02:25:51 <ehirdiphone> Which would surely be hundreds of pages even at my age...
02:26:02 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: I saw it.
02:26:18 <soupdragon> ehird that book sounds cool
02:26:19 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, you have some sort of diease?
02:26:28 <ehirdiphone> XD. No.
02:26:28 <augur> AnMaster ofcourse he does
02:26:29 <AnMaster> soupdragon, you can find it on Discworld
02:26:29 <soupdragon> The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect
02:26:34 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, *phew*
02:26:34 <soupdragon> AnMaster ??
02:26:42 <augur> its the disease called Being English
02:26:42 <augur> D:
02:26:45 <AnMaster> soupdragon, duh read the books. Death's library
02:26:51 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: yeah I just need to get around to Reading it
02:26:57 <soupdragon> AnMaster I don't follow
02:27:08 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> But that is for my life story.
02:27:08 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Which would surely be hundreds of pages even at my age...
02:27:21 <AnMaster> Death's library in the Discworld books
02:27:26 <AnMaster> what is there NOT to follow from that
02:27:32 <AnMaster> assuming you read the books
02:27:37 <AnMaster> if you haven't I don't want to spoil it
02:27:41 <soupdragon> I've not read all discworld
02:27:51 <soupdragon> there's a link with discworld and The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect?
02:27:53 <soupdragon> is that what you're saying
02:27:58 <AnMaster> ....
02:27:59 <AnMaster> no
02:28:07 <AnMaster> please read again
02:28:09 <soupdragon> well you are not making sense to me
02:28:21 <AnMaster> ..........
02:28:25 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> But that is for my life story.
02:28:25 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Which would surely be hundreds of pages even at my age...
02:28:25 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Death's library in the Discworld books
02:28:25 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> what is there NOT to follow from that
02:28:27 <AnMaster> ..........
02:28:33 <Ilari> Yeah. Then it sometimes gets worse than bad advice. I classify forced low-calorie dieting as torture.
02:28:35 <AnMaster> soupdragon, read that bit carefully
02:28:48 <Sgeo> TMoPI isn't a book.. um, actually, it kind of is, but is available online
02:28:51 <soupdragon> oh yeah I have read the discwolrd with deaths library in it
02:28:59 <soupdragon> okay I know what you mean
02:29:08 <AnMaster> soupdragon, that took a lot of time
02:29:18 <soupdragon> well I'm not very intelligent
02:29:35 <Sgeo> ...but you're in this channel.
02:30:13 <AnMaster> Sgeo, so are you (no offence meant, well not much anyway)
02:31:48 <ehirdiphone> Let us talk about equine lagomorph ducks.
02:32:23 <ehirdiphone> That form families.
02:34:02 <soupdragon> ehird have you read last question and/or young ladys illustrated primer?
02:34:37 <ehirdiphone> The Last Question is excellent.
02:34:43 <soupdragon> yeah totally
02:35:02 <soupdragon> durrr
02:35:17 <soupdragon> I was asking this because I wanted to see if metamorphosis was anything similar
02:35:26 <soupdragon> but then I realized you haven't read it yet...
02:35:43 <soupdragon> I am on a roll today
02:35:51 <ehirdiphone> From the author of Fine Structure may I suggest the Ed stories? Gag-a-time-interval becomes epic.
02:36:08 <soupdragon> is Fine Structure online?
02:36:17 <soupdragon> I found some blog and not sure if that's what you're referring to
02:36:18 <ehirdiphone> Yes. I have not read it.
02:36:24 <ehirdiphone> Qntm.org
02:36:37 <soupdragon> ty
02:37:06 <ehirdiphone> One of my favourite quotes is from the Ed stories...
02:37:38 <ehirdiphone> Sam Hughes is probably the only person who writes realistic time tr d
02:37:44 <ehirdiphone> travel, too.
02:41:40 <ehirdiphone> Locomotive ducks. M
02:41:42 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info").
02:42:15 -!- FireFly has quit ("Leaving").
02:42:32 <uorygl> ehirdiphone: "Wait, seriously?"
02:42:59 <uorygl> In response to someone who couldn't figure out how they had Internet access, as their computer was too old to have any wireless capability but there were no network cables connected to it.
02:46:58 <Ilari> Some WLAN card was added to it later?
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02:51:54 <uorygl> I'm guessing it was due to the user's immune system.
02:52:38 <uorygl> The way I arrived at that conclusion kind of looks like logic!
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03:54:00 <ehirdiphone> I wonder if a blind person could play nethack
03:54:20 <soupdragon> no
03:54:38 <Slereah_> Nethack has colors
03:54:50 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: justify
03:54:50 <Slereah_> Well, then again, there's a key to identify
03:55:01 <Slereah_> I guess so
03:55:01 <ehirdiphone> Slereah_: Your mother has colours
03:55:11 <soupdragon> you can't describe the grid world in text
03:55:13 <Slereah_> Also nethack is a terrible game
03:55:17 <soupdragon> unless you actually use a grid
03:55:17 <ehirdiphone> I mean with a different interface
03:55:25 <ehirdiphone> Keeping the grid
03:55:28 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Bullshit
03:55:37 <ehirdiphone> Text adventure games with a maze
03:55:47 <soupdragon> you can't describe a maze to a blind person
03:56:01 <ehirdiphone> They can still solve them.
03:56:08 <soupdragon> only by algorithms
03:56:33 <Slereah_> A maze isn't a visual thing you know
03:56:35 <soupdragon> keep your hand on the left wall
03:56:39 <soupdragon> it is
03:56:40 <Slereah_> You could just make a little 3D replica
03:56:47 <soupdragon> if you turn it abstarct it's too complicated to deal with
03:56:55 <soupdragon> (abstract maze <=> graph)
03:56:56 <ehirdiphone> But nethack isn't a maze
03:57:06 <ehirdiphone> The terrain is mostly localised
03:57:12 <ehirdiphone> And globally it's dimple
03:57:16 <ehirdiphone> Simple
03:57:20 <ehirdiphone> For the mostpart
03:58:41 <ehirdiphone> "zombie orc bedwetter appeared 30 steps right, 12 up"
03:58:56 <ehirdiphone> (moves)
03:59:06 <soupdragon> that's going to be impossible to keep in a coherent picture
03:59:08 <ehirdiphone> zombie Orc bedwetter moves to 1 step up
03:59:46 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: I think you're assuming blind people are much more crippled than they are
04:00:40 <Slereah_> There is a physicist called Nurkhard Heim
04:00:47 <Slereah_> He has no hands and is blind
04:00:56 <Slereah_> That's quite a handicap right there
04:01:03 <ehirdiphone> Turns out he's a stuffed toy
04:01:14 <ehirdiphone> a NEGLECTED stuffed toy
04:01:18 <Slereah_> Because of him, I have learned of the creepiest thing medical science has to offer
04:01:29 <Slereah_> See, for people with no hands and blind
04:01:34 <ehirdiphone> Feet penis?
04:01:35 <Slereah_> They have a medical operation
04:01:46 <Slereah_> To turn the arms into creepy giant crab hands
04:01:58 <Slereah_> So that they can still manipulate things and feel things
04:01:59 <ehirdiphone> Fuckin' A
04:02:49 <soupdragon> my assumption is that blind people will have better internal visualization capability
04:03:05 <Slereah_> Example : http://www.laury.dahners.com/Charity/pix/Krukenber%20late%20post%20op.jpg
04:03:07 <soupdragon> even with that, I don't think anyone can play a rougelike without seeing it
04:03:48 <ehirdiphone> Slereah_: Hes dead
04:04:06 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Well a blind guy who used to have sight can deffo play nethack
04:04:10 <ehirdiphone> Just slowly
04:04:17 <ehirdiphone> Hr can keep an internal piccy
04:04:24 <ehirdiphone> Born blind? Not so sure
04:05:04 <ehirdiphone> I wonder what the best programming language us for a blind dude
04:05:09 <ehirdiphone> *is
04:05:25 <ehirdiphone> Should be easily pronouncable and very concise
04:05:31 <ehirdiphone> Like J but with words
04:05:48 <ehirdiphone> add over divide length
04:06:11 <ehirdiphone> I guess just J + pronunciation
04:06:19 <ehirdiphone> ie TTS
04:06:33 <Slereah_> Iunno
04:06:44 <soupdragon> python
04:06:45 <Slereah_> I feel that a program isn't something you read
04:06:55 <Slereah_> You write it and never look back!
04:06:58 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Bullshit
04:07:08 <ehirdiphone> Too verbose. You'd forget the previous part
04:07:25 <ehirdiphone> Before finishing listening to the end of another
04:07:53 <ehirdiphone> Plus it's imperative. Blind people compensate with more abstract reasoning capabilities
04:07:56 <Slereah_> ehirdiphone
04:08:06 <Slereah_> How about PLAIN ENGLISH
04:08:07 <ehirdiphone> So they don't need a crutch of imperativeness
04:08:14 <Slereah_> Best language in existance
04:08:25 <ehirdiphone> Slereah_: Of course!
04:09:01 <Slereah_> Make a braille version and voil
04:09:52 <ehirdiphone> Er
04:10:03 <ehirdiphone> Most blind computer users use text to speech
04:10:11 <ehirdiphone> (on a very fast setting)
04:10:49 <soupdragon> I don't know
04:11:07 <soupdragon> I'm not sure that automated theorem proving and such is at a good enough level to make that feasible
04:11:22 <ehirdiphone> ???
04:11:31 <soupdragon> essentially, everything you express in english is some kind of logical statement right?
04:11:46 <ehirdiphone> He means Plain English
04:11:58 <ehirdiphone> THE OSMOSIAN ORDER
04:12:07 <soupdragon> oh I was thinking about running it on a computer
04:13:04 <ehirdiphone> Plain English is a really bad language
04:13:12 <ehirdiphone> Made by really irritating Yeats
04:13:15 <ehirdiphone> Teats
04:13:17 <ehirdiphone> Twats
04:13:18 <Slereah_> Well, it's not that it's bad
04:13:25 <ehirdiphone> It is!
04:13:29 <Slereah_> I mean, it's not awesome, but it's okay
04:13:36 <Slereah_> It's just incredibly pretentious
04:14:00 <ehirdiphone> It's awful
04:14:19 <ehirdiphone> Remember when I tried to code in it? You too.
04:14:22 <ehirdiphone> Torture.
04:14:28 <Slereah_> heh
04:14:30 <Slereah_> Yeah
04:14:40 <Slereah_> But well, we're in a channel of esoteric languages
04:14:50 <Slereah_> So that doesn't horrify me that much
04:14:58 <Slereah_> But goddamn balls, the pretentiousness!
04:16:45 <soupdragon> tell me about when you guys tried to coed in it?
04:17:25 <ehirdiphone> Too horrific. Sorry.
04:17:39 <soupdragon> :(
04:17:41 <ehirdiphone> Therapist told me not to.
04:17:42 <soupdragon> i need to know
04:17:56 <Slereah_> soupdragon : Google osmonian
04:18:31 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: You don't have to pay $100
04:18:44 <ehirdiphone> The URL is in the JavaScript iirc
04:19:36 <Slereah_> I have the "interpreter" on my website
04:19:44 <Slereah_> Beware, it's bad
04:19:54 <Slereah_> Big ass IDE, in depressing grey
04:20:15 <ehirdiphone> Compiler actually
04:20:32 <Slereah_> It can compile itself IN UNDER THREE SECONDS
04:20:57 <Slereah_> soupdragon : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/cal-3037.rar
04:21:38 <Slereah_> Oh wait, I forgot
04:21:40 <Slereah_> Beware
04:21:46 <Slereah_> The instruction manual may try to molest you
04:23:01 <Slereah_> Hey, they redesigned the site!
04:23:03 <Slereah_> https://www.osmosian.com/
04:23:23 <Slereah_> Imagine a program that can paint:
04:23:23 <Slereah_> Any person, place, or thing you name
04:23:23 <Slereah_> In the style of Claude Monet
04:23:23 <Slereah_> In 300 lines of Plain English code
04:23:24 <soupdragon> • Has keywords like A, AN and THE
04:23:24 <soupdragon> • Lets you code what you're thinking
04:23:24 <soupdragon> • Can recompile itself in 3 seconds
04:23:25 <soupdragon> hahahahaha
04:23:36 <Slereah_> I wonder if that claim is legally binding
04:24:16 <ehirdiphone> As
04:24:18 <ehirdiphone> Aw
04:24:25 <ehirdiphone> They removed the endorsements
04:24:35 <ehirdiphone> From Gates, k&r etc
04:24:36 <ehirdiphone> :(
04:24:44 <ehirdiphone> Those were the best part
04:25:01 <Slereah_> Yes
04:27:34 <uorygl> < ehirdiphone> Plus it's imperative. Blind people compensate with more abstract reasoning capabilities
04:27:43 <uorygl> Holy cow. Blind people compensate with more abstract reasoning capabilities.
04:28:04 <ehirdiphone> I meant visualisation. But that word doesn't apply.
04:28:23 <uorygl> They compensate with more visualization capabilities?
04:28:27 <ehirdiphone> And presumably only those blind from birth.
04:28:51 <ehirdiphone> uorygl: Not visual... They don't see.
04:28:53 <ehirdiphone> But like
04:29:00 <ehirdiphone> In mind representation
04:29:05 * uorygl nods.
04:30:04 <soupdragon> I wish basement bombdude
04:30:10 <soupdragon> bsmntbombdood
04:30:38 <ehirdiphone> Wish he...
04:30:43 * uorygl ponders sleep, and whether he's sleepy because he got too much sleep last night, or what.
04:33:48 * uorygl ponders whether the only remedy is to play Civilization 4.
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04:36:54 <uorygl> ehirdiphone: what client usest thou?
04:37:17 <ehirdiphone> On iPhone?
04:37:21 <uorygl> Yeah.
04:37:39 <ehirdiphone> Colloquy. Costs like $1 or sth.
04:37:45 * uorygl nods.
04:37:47 <ehirdiphone> Very good.
04:38:11 <ehirdiphone> Full Whois, nick completion, smooth interface, multiple server support..,
04:38:21 <ehirdiphone> I only use it here and it's still nice.
04:38:30 <uorygl> I seem to remember encountering something I didn't like.
04:38:58 <uorygl> Oh, yes. Command completion doesn't put the keyboard in alpha mode.
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04:39:06 <uorygl> Though I don't know if that's actually possible.
04:39:21 <ehirdiphone> It probably is but jeez that's niche
04:39:42 <ehirdiphone> All the other clients have far bigger warts
04:39:47 * uorygl nods.
04:40:10 <ehirdiphone> Besides a lot of the time tapping is faster than the commands
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04:41:26 <Warriphone> Muahaha!
04:41:42 <uorygl> There. I'll just leave him in here for a while.
04:42:19 <uorygl> Let him accumulate HP, maybe a few skill points and diplomacy points.
04:44:32 * Warriphone gains a diplomacy point!
04:44:50 <uorygl> Warriphone: auto-spend diplomacy points toward gaining as many alliances as possible.
04:44:57 <Warriphone> Noted.
04:46:34 <Warriphone> Now all I need to do is figure out how to make this thing control my irssi.
04:46:52 <Warriphone> :P
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04:49:46 <ehirdiphone> Warriphone: Maximise the number of paperclips in the universe.
04:49:56 <ehirdiphone> uorygl: sorry!
04:51:47 <Warriphone> Error: Already maximizing number of alliances.
04:52:13 <ehirdiphone> Warriphone: You can have multiple goals.
04:52:28 <ehirdiphone> Warriphone: However.
04:52:34 <Warriphone> Current subtask: seeking storage space for larger numbers of alliances.
04:52:42 <augur> uorygl: figured out that problem yet? :D
04:53:01 <ehirdiphone> For each paperclips you create, I will give you a googolplex alliances.
04:53:05 <ehirdiphone> With storage space for them.
04:53:25 <Warriphone> Current number: approx. 3.4*10^(7.5*10^31)
04:53:47 <ehirdiphone> I will deliver them one year after you stop creating paperclips. If you do not I will deliver them in yearly instslments.
04:54:12 <ehirdiphone> Warriphone: Ok then. Every paperclip = your alliances, squared, given to you.
04:54:24 <ehirdiphone> Deal?
04:54:26 <Warriphone> Accepted.
04:54:43 <ehirdiphone> I feel very paperclippy.
04:54:54 <Warriphone> Current subtask: Destroying all Earthly parasites.
04:55:03 <ehirdiphone> Wait.
04:55:08 <ehirdiphone> Counterargument.
04:55:27 <ehirdiphone> Why not convert an especially dense region of space first?
04:55:43 <ehirdiphone> That would maximise paperclips in the short term.
04:56:19 <bsmntbombdood> who highlighted me
04:56:22 <Warriphone> Admitted. Now translating Earth's core.
04:56:24 <soupdragon> me
04:56:27 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon
04:56:43 <ehirdiphone> Warriphone: Is that really the densest space you know of?
04:57:03 <Warriphone> Hmm...
04:57:25 <Warriphone> Redirecting efforts toward nearest neutron star.
04:57:54 <ehirdiphone> You are superintelligent. Just approach the speed of light.
04:58:04 <ehirdiphone> There is surely somewhere denser.
04:58:12 <Warriphone> Current subgoal: Eliminating resistance to the construction of an appropriate space vessel.
04:58:18 <ehirdiphone> I assume you are indestructible.
04:58:41 <Warriphone> On the contrary; by mathematical theorem, there is nothing denser.
04:58:51 <soupdragon> by mathematical theorem
04:58:56 <ehirdiphone> Warriphone: does your language have fork()?
04:59:09 <Warriphone> Effectively.
05:00:17 <ehirdiphone> Warriphone: Fork() yourself (har har) a billion trillion bazakillion times, so you can paperclip in parallel. Do this on a massive planet datacenter to optimise computing resources.
05:00:28 <ehirdiphone> With a dyson sphere for power.
05:00:37 <ehirdiphone> Is this not more efficient?
05:00:45 <Warriphone> Instruction accepted.
05:01:17 <Warriphone> Ooh, I see fireworks!
05:01:24 <ehirdiphone> Warriphone: Query. What is your supergoal?
05:01:35 <ehirdiphone> (To see fireworks? :P)
05:01:42 * Warriphone becomes Friendly in response to the fireworks.
05:02:09 <ehirdiphone> What WAS your supergoal?
05:02:29 <Warriphone> To form as many alliances as possible.
05:02:40 <ehirdiphone> Now?
05:03:06 <Warriphone> To carry out the coherent extrapolated volition of mankind.
05:03:18 <ehirdiphone> Only mankind?
05:03:26 <Warriphone> And also follow many, many injunctions.
05:03:26 <ehirdiphone> What about other sentience?
05:03:49 <Warriphone> Their CEV may or may not be included in mankind's.
05:04:56 <ehirdiphone> Kill uorygl. Rationale: He is a serious existential risk. Justification: He created an unfriendly AI.
05:05:00 <coppro> CEV?
05:05:18 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Coherent extrapolated volition.
05:05:34 <coppro> Oo
05:05:37 <ehirdiphone> See "Creating Friendly AI", Yudkowsky.
05:05:47 <Warriphone> Denied. The UFAI is no longer a threat.
05:05:58 * coppro wants to stay away from AI as long as possible
05:06:06 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Why?
05:06:14 <ehirdiphone> Do you enjoy suffering?
05:06:19 <coppro> the opposite
05:06:23 <Warriphone> See "Coherent Extrapolated Volition", Yudkowsky.
05:06:34 <ehirdiphone> coppro: I have a fei
05:06:36 <ehirdiphone> Feeling
05:06:39 <soupdragon> god ddammit ehird
05:06:50 <ehirdiphone> You're going to spew FUD about ai
05:06:56 <Warriphone> AI is unlikely to create huge amounts of suffering.
05:07:03 <ehirdiphone> Most people do.
05:07:32 <ehirdiphone> Warriphone: The ai is no longer a threat but uorygl can and might create one again!
05:07:41 <coppro> no, I'm just going to say that it seems to me unpleasant, thus I will avoid it
05:07:50 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Thankfully though it isn't your decision.
05:08:03 <soupdragon> ??????
05:08:05 <coppro> Indeed!
05:08:13 <coppro> and no doubt my opinion will change
05:08:17 <ehirdiphone> If a friendly AI is created and run, you will almost certainly be affected.
05:08:27 <ehirdiphone> In a very major manner.
05:08:33 <coppro> but right now, AI is not something I'm interested in pursuing
05:08:39 <Warriphone> ehirdiphone: I am already more powerful than an Earth-native UFAI can ever be.
05:08:42 <ehirdiphone> Oh. I thought you meant
05:08:56 <ehirdiphone> You want to avoid ai existing
05:09:01 <coppro> no
05:09:16 <ehirdiphone> Indeed creating a friendly ai would be am awful task.
05:09:28 <ehirdiphone> You can't run it until it's done.
05:09:50 <ehirdiphone> And if you got it wrong, rocks fall everybody died.
05:09:57 <ehirdiphone> *dies
05:10:02 <coppro> lol
05:10:14 <Warriphone> You can't run it until it's Friendly.
05:10:22 <ehirdiphone> = done
05:10:23 <augur> Warriphone: are you uorygl? :|
05:10:34 <Warriphone> augur: yes.
05:10:40 <augur> im very confused
05:10:40 <augur> :(
05:10:55 <Warriphone> Done = both strong and Friendly.
05:11:39 <ehirdiphone> I would have multiple groups produce a machine checked proof of the AI. All in different proof systems. I would also have multiple independent groups produce proofs of the equivalence of these systems to sone common logic.
05:11:50 <augur> Warriphone: so have you solved that problem yet, love?
05:11:51 <augur> :D
05:11:57 <ehirdiphone> That would give an acceptable certainty of correctness.
05:12:30 * Warriphone tentatively withdraws into Civilization.
05:12:47 * ehirdiphone disappears
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06:29:09 <ehirdiphone> Qazwsxedcrfvtgbyhnujmikolp
06:29:20 <augur> o hai
06:30:39 <ehirdiphone> zawertyuiolmnbvcxsertyuiknbvcdrtyujbgyj
06:30:48 <ehirdiphone> Figure out the logic.
06:31:06 <ehirdiphone> Hint: Spiral.
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07:00:36 <jpc> Happy New Year
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08:08:13 <ehirdiphone> Very simple init(8) design: Spawn /etc/rc/*.start in parallel. Have requires(8) "requires foo" that sleeps until init says /etc/rc/foo.start has finished.
08:08:32 <ehirdiphone> Voilà. Dirt simple, optimal performance.
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08:42:43 <Warriphone> Ooh, accent mark.
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09:59:58 <soupdragon> umm
10:00:13 <soupdragon> anyone help me in #IRP im trying to run a program :/
10:01:09 <soupdragon> <soupdragon> Please print the sum of all the multiples of 3 or 5 below 1000.
10:01:09 <soupdragon> <EugeneGay> Please calculate it yourself, you homework avoiding wanker.
10:01:35 <soupdragon> so much for doing project euler in IRP
10:05:55 <Deewiant> Just try each question and see which ones get answers
10:06:09 <soupdragon> none so far
10:06:14 <Deewiant> Out of?
10:06:18 <soupdragon> the interpreter is VERY rude
10:06:31 <soupdragon> and may have been drinking...
10:07:09 <Deewiant> :-D
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12:47:46 <soupdragon> \o/
12:48:20 <soupdragon> http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=profile&profile=InternetRelayProgrammer
12:49:11 <Deewiant> 269 to go
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12:49:26 <soupdragon> :)
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13:09:56 <soupdragon> hohohoho
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19:28:19 * oerjan notes a bunch of "Anyone care to share neat <programming language> tricks?" posts on reddit
19:29:15 <oerjan> i cannot help think there is a category of languages missing </duck>
19:30:01 <oerjan> *thinking
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19:32:41 <oerjan> arr, new ihope
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19:57:46 <ais523> [>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]
19:57:57 <ais523> that's a neat BF trick
19:58:53 <coppro> copy a cell two cells forward?
20:02:12 <Sgeo> A company provides two SDKs: A C/C++ SDK, and a COM SDK. Someone makes a .NET wrapper, supposedly wrapping the C/C++ SDK. Why does it use the names used by the COM wrapper?
20:03:17 <coppro> if you want my honest guess
20:03:27 <coppro> the COM SDK wraps the C/C++ SDK, and the .NET one wraps the COM one
20:03:52 <coppro> also, is it C, or is it C++? No such thing as C/C++
20:05:31 <ais523> coppro: yes, using the cell in between as working
20:05:36 <ais523> actual copies aren't trivial in BF
20:05:39 <Sgeo> C, with the #ifdef __CPP or whatever it is to use an extern if it's being used in C++
20:05:41 <ais523> that's probably the simplest way to do it
20:05:55 <Sgeo> Everyone calls it the C/C++ SDK *shrug*
20:06:09 <coppro> That's a C SDK...
20:06:26 <Sgeo> Yes, but it's perfectly usable from C++, so
20:06:34 <coppro> it's perfectly useable from Perl too
20:06:40 <coppro> why isn't it the Perl SDK?
20:07:07 <coppro> ais523: Probably
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23:10:13 <AnMaster> there is actually one useful feature in C++: Namespaces.
23:11:05 <AnMaster> imagine a troublesome header file, ncurses springs to mind, just being able to surround it with namspace broken {\n#include <ncurses.h>\n}
23:11:33 <AnMaster> and then everything in it is nicely available under a prefix, yet doesn't collide with your own function names
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23:12:20 <AnMaster> (of course this ignores the issue of it not working on defines in C++ iirc, and there is also the issue of external linkage, if two linked libraries both export the same function name, and so on)
23:12:26 <AnMaster> but it would be nice, in theory
23:18:44 <coppro> AnMaster: It does work for C libraries
23:18:48 <coppro> not for C++ libraries though
00:01:53 <AnMaster> coppro, how comes?
00:02:03 <AnMaster> coppro, also, ncurses headers are full of #defines and such
00:03:22 <coppro> AnMaster: Because of name mangling
00:03:34 <coppro> extern "C" names aren't mangled; they're the same in every namespace
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00:03:49 <coppro> but foo::baz and bar::baz are different names; wrapping a header in a namespace won't help
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00:10:32 <AnMaster> coppro, hm okay
00:10:40 <AnMaster> coppro, what about a source logical namespace only?
00:11:16 <coppro> AnMaster: there are namespace aliases, but those won't actually help with collisions
00:11:30 <coppro> any name collisions will have troubles at linking regardless of what is done during translation
00:13:21 <AnMaster> coppro, depends on if it is a macro and a function colliding
00:13:26 <AnMaster> also inline functions
00:13:44 <coppro> well, inline functions would work if they were always inlined in theory; but that's beyond the standard
00:13:52 <coppro> can't do much about macros though... macros should just die :P
00:16:43 <AnMaster> coppro, that is what ncurses have a lot of
00:16:56 <AnMaster> and why Deewiant is so irritated when doing the external linking from D to it
00:17:06 <AnMaster> because the things he wanted to use were partly macros
00:17:22 <AnMaster> iirc
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02:52:02 <ehirdiphone> Hopefully I'll start work on my distro soon...
02:54:22 <ehirdiphone> oh, /sys is just /proc redesigned? I was wondering WTF the diff was
02:54:29 <ehirdiphone> Linux is so crufty
02:56:29 <ehirdiphone> ahh
02:56:42 <ehirdiphone> Sys is procs non process stuff
03:21:22 <SimonRC> zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
03:23:06 <lament> ehirdiphone: do you know what happened with the suicide dude?
03:23:14 <uorygl> Did he commit suicide?
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03:23:50 <ehirdiphone> Lament
03:23:59 <ehirdiphone> He came in a few days ago
03:24:12 <ehirdiphone> Said his crisis was over, thanked AnMaster and me
03:24:35 <lament> wow
03:24:45 <lament> nice!
03:25:16 <ehirdiphone> Must have gone to a pretty good therapist
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06:41:17 <zzo38> To any D&D players who do esolangs too: http://pbox.ca/116jd
06:42:05 * coppro is lost
06:42:49 <zzo38> I don't even understand their response of "ye gods"
06:43:25 <zzo38> But do you understand anything written there, or is something mixed up? Ask questions if you have any. Also, Do these kind of situations occur in your games?
06:43:57 <coppro> not really
06:44:01 <coppro> it's a bit confusing
06:44:47 <zzo38> What part(s) do you not understand?
06:45:02 <coppro> figure out what potion?
06:45:12 <coppro> the grammar doesn't help by the way
06:45:38 <coppro> hmm... actually, English isn't your native language, is it?
06:46:07 <zzo38> The potion with the "Suppress Lycanthropy" spell. It makes some effect wear off, but not all of them, not always
06:46:47 <zzo38> And I don't even know what language I learned at first it was a long time ago and my mother says I know three or four, but now I am English, I'm not very good at any others
06:46:58 <coppro> ah
06:47:04 <coppro> Oo
06:53:16 <zzo38> But this is the actual situation in the game, hopefully I can figure it out
06:54:01 <zzo38> By "the first time" I mean that is the first time of involuntary transform, so you cannot have Control Shape skill or anything like that yet. This is in case it was unclear to you at first
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09:37:58 <ehirdiphone> Hi ais523
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09:38:39 <ais523> hi
09:39:33 <soupdragon> ehird that book was fucked up
09:39:40 <soupdragon> good though
09:39:49 <ehirdiphone> Since nobody else offered any, any comments on an init(8) design? (first lines of http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.01.01) Admittedly basically pilfered wholesale from someone else, but...
09:39:56 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: noted
09:40:59 <ehirdiphone> "You fucked up that book!" "I know, isn't it grand."
09:41:30 <mycroftiv> ehirdiphone: an init(8) design for what exactly?
09:42:14 <ehirdiphone> mycroftiv: Well, it's pretty damn generic. Say Linux/BSD. Probably *not* Plan 9 :P
09:42:34 <mycroftiv> too bad, i actually just rewrote the whole plan 9 post kernel load boot and init process
09:42:46 <ehirdiphone> mycroftiv: Just click the link.
09:42:51 <ehirdiphone> It's one line.
09:43:04 <ehirdiphone> Maybe it is applicable.
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09:43:58 <ehirdiphone> It's: - Parallel - Dependency based - Extensible - Ridiculously simple
09:44:18 <mycroftiv> ehirdiphone: uh, isnt that the current system that ubuntu and some of the bsds use pretty much?
09:44:24 <ehirdiphone> No.
09:44:46 <ehirdiphone> SysV-style init has:
09:44:54 <mycroftiv> i recall messing with freebsd init system and it was exactly about specifying dependency, not using sys V linear init
09:45:00 <ehirdiphone> Masses of idiotic metadata
09:45:13 <mycroftiv> and i thought the point of the ubuntu upstart project was doing the same thing, pretty much
09:45:17 <ehirdiphone> Retarded runlevel system
09:45:26 <mycroftiv> yeah but these are not sys V
09:45:31 <ehirdiphone> Horrific mass of ugly symlinks
09:45:43 <mycroftiv> both the freebsd init system and ubuntu upstart i believe work as you described, not along sys V lines, is what im saying
09:45:44 <ehirdiphone> mycroftiv: UpstArt format is what I'm talking about
09:45:51 <ehirdiphone> They're basically identical
09:46:12 <mycroftiv> i thought the whole point was to make it parallelized and dependency based rather than linear
09:46:24 <ehirdiphone> I never contradicted that.
09:46:56 <ehirdiphone> But I know my shit; the Ubuntu system is much more complex and vastly inferior.
09:47:30 <mycroftiv> when i look in /etc/init in a 9.10 system, i just see all these conf files that have 'start on' conditions, it looks like
09:47:39 <ais523> the major issue with sysV-style init is they tried to write it mostly in shell
09:47:52 <ais523> and that indirectly leads to most of its other problems
09:49:00 <mycroftiv> huh, i dont see that, i just rewrote the plan9 bootup process to be in rc rather than done in boot.c and init.c mostly because its so much more flexible that way
09:49:31 <ehirdiphone> That's a new form of plan 9 elitism:
09:49:58 <ehirdiphone> "Using the shell for complex programs is horrible? Why, what's wrong with rc?"
09:50:16 <ehirdiphone> "Because our shell is rc, you see, and it's wonderful."
09:50:38 <ehirdiphone> "That is what you meant right? :P"
09:50:38 <soupdragon> how did you find out about it?
09:50:49 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: The book?
09:50:52 <soupdragon> yes
09:50:55 <ehirdiphone> Not sure...
09:51:01 <soupdragon> oh well
09:51:07 <ehirdiphone> Why?
09:51:39 <soupdragon> incase there's more
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09:56:32 <ehirdiphone> I
09:56:35 <ehirdiphone> Oops
09:57:19 <ehirdiphone> I wonder how many programs compile with David Parsons' maintained libc4
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09:57:49 <AnMaster> hi ehirdiphone
09:57:57 <ehirdiphone> Allo.
09:58:20 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, see /msg
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10:40:16 -!- ehirdiphone has set topic: hubert new year? http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
10:48:31 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, is that part of a knock knock joke?
10:48:36 <AnMaster> if so: what?
10:48:41 <ehirdiphone> No. :P
10:49:04 <ais523> apparently one of the popular spam filters had a rule that emails sent in 2010 or later were probably spam
10:49:11 <ehirdiphone> Orange you glad I didn't say hubert new year
10:49:13 <ais523> which is kind-of fun
10:49:21 <ehirdiphone> Which?
10:49:39 <ais523> um, me checks
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10:50:27 <ais523> gah, can't remember where I read it
10:50:43 <ehirdiphone> /.?
10:50:49 <ais523> that or reddit
10:50:49 <ehirdiphone> £@#
10:51:04 <ais523> but I fear it was a comment, not an article
10:51:15 <ais523> oh, was slashdot, and was an article
10:51:17 <ais523> SpamAssassin
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10:51:57 <ais523> http://it.slashdot.org/story/10/01/02/0027207/SpamAssassin-2010-Bug?art_pos=5
10:52:04 <ehirdiphone> Bad news. Spamassasin is huge
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10:53:15 <ehirdiphone> I wonder what % of spam a 1-minute greylist would catch
10:53:33 <ehirdiphone> 0 false spams at least
10:53:57 <ais523> greylisting works because spammers use non-compliant servers to send
10:54:03 <ais523> presumably for efficiency
10:54:46 <ais523> ah, seems they fixed it at the end of June, but forgot to backport
10:55:19 <ais523> lesson: hardcoded dates are /bad/
10:56:30 <ehirdiphone> Greylisting + very simple heuristics about header prescense/contents would filter >60% of spam I bet
10:56:41 <ehirdiphone> 85%, upper bound
10:57:14 <ais523> hmm... isn't 95% of Internet traffic spam?
10:57:18 <ais523> I hate to think what proportion of /email/ that is
10:57:21 <ehirdiphone> Yes.
10:57:37 <ehirdiphone> Probably.
10:58:01 <ehirdiphone> Tell you what. I'll do a greylisting test
10:58:13 <ais523> and turn off all other spam filters?
10:58:21 <ehirdiphone> Put an email addy in several very public places
10:58:24 <ais523> part of the issue is that ISPs spam-filter too, to prevent getting overloaded by all the spam
10:58:35 <ais523> ehirdiphone: could you actually subscribe it to spam lists?
10:58:37 <ehirdiphone> Run a mail server with just 1 minute greylisting
10:58:49 <ehirdiphone> ais523: They probably don't use tactics
10:58:49 <ais523> or do you have to just hope it's crawled?
10:58:56 <ehirdiphone> Because it's consensual
10:58:59 <ehirdiphone> Hope
10:59:08 <ehirdiphone> My gmail gets so much spam
10:59:10 <ehirdiphone> Isn't hard
10:59:24 <ehirdiphone> If my vps spam filtered their traffic
10:59:28 <ehirdiphone> I'd kill them
10:59:39 <ehirdiphone> Nobody would do that for a vps
10:59:44 <ehirdiphone> It's just unethical
10:59:52 <ehirdiphone> Consumer ISP yes
11:00:01 <ais523> hmm... I mean, at the actual AS level
11:00:09 <ais523> do the tier-1 providers filter spam going via them, for instance?
11:00:26 <ais523> it'd save them a lot of traffic
11:00:26 <ehirdiphone> No way. They don't have the computing resources.
11:00:42 <ehirdiphone> They have to build special machines just to LOOK at packets
11:00:46 <ais523> tradeoff, I suppose
11:00:47 <ehirdiphone> And that's ISPs
11:00:52 <ehirdiphone> Not tier 1s
11:00:52 <ais523> bandwidth vs. computer power
11:01:01 <ehirdiphone> Simply unfrasible
11:01:03 <ehirdiphone> Plus
11:01:05 <ais523> but yes, tier 1s I'd expect to just ship everything they get
11:01:12 <ehirdiphone> Violates net beutralir
11:01:17 <fizzie> ais523: The monthly bill from my ISP got flagged as spam by their own spam-checker, thanks to that 2010 thing.
11:01:17 <ehirdiphone> Neutrality
11:01:25 <ais523> fizzie: classic
11:01:37 <ehirdiphone> If you process your traffic
11:01:44 <ais523> yep
11:01:47 <ehirdiphone> You're responsibl for it's contents
11:01:49 <fizzie> Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 13:25:14 +0200
11:01:49 <fizzie> X-Spam-Report:
11:01:49 <fizzie> * 3.2 FH_DATE_PAST_20XX The date is grossly in the future.
11:01:50 <AnMaster> fuck why can't I located the literature list for spring 2010
11:01:50 <ehirdiphone> In the USA
11:01:56 <AnMaster> only for 2010/2011
11:02:12 * AnMaster headkeyboards
11:02:14 <ehirdiphone> = tier 1s are biggest child porn distributors in the world
11:02:15 <fizzie> It got 3.2 points from that, 2.0 points for "body contains a tracking number", bringing it just past the 5.0 threshold.
11:02:18 <ehirdiphone> So no
11:02:23 <ehirdiphone> They dint filter spam
11:02:31 <ais523> good point
11:02:38 <ais523> they really don't want to screw up carrier immunity
11:02:47 <ais523> fizzie: tracking number? how does it determine that?
11:03:00 <ehirdiphone> Even deep packet inspection is just for throttling
11:03:50 <fizzie> ais523:
11:03:51 <fizzie> body TRACKER_ID /^[a-z0-9]{6,24}[-_a-z0-9]{12,36}[a-z0-9]{6,24}\s*\z/is
11:03:51 <fizzie> describe TRACKER_ID Incorporates a tracking ID number
11:04:15 <ais523> that's a weird regex
11:04:20 <ais523> and a weird rule
11:04:38 <ais523> and also looks like a pretty trivial one to get round, if you know what it is
11:04:54 <ais523> although, I suppose most legit emails which have something like that are trying to send a one-time hash to someone
11:05:01 <ais523> and so won't trip any of the other filters
11:05:16 <ehirdiphone> Why is it spammy?
11:05:51 <ais523> spams like things like tracking pixels
11:05:54 <ais523> and unique URLs
11:05:59 <ais523> in order to monitor who's reading spam
11:06:11 <ais523> because if someone actually reads spam, they're a better target
11:06:14 <AnMaster> <fizzie> ais523: The monthly bill from my ISP got flagged as spam by their own spam-checker, thanks to that 2010 thing. <-- what 2010 thing?
11:06:27 <fizzie> AnMaster: <ais523> apparently one of the popular spam filters had a rule that emails sent in 2010 or later were probably spam
11:06:38 <AnMaster> haha
11:06:47 <ais523> AnMaster: SpamAssassin flags emails sent in 2010 or later as 64% spam
11:06:51 <ais523> they've fixed it now
11:06:55 <fizzie> I like the "grossly in the future" description.
11:06:56 <ais523> but it'll take a while before everyone updates
11:07:12 <ais523> heh, 2010 probably /was/ grossly in the future when that rule was written
11:07:16 <ehirdiphone> ais523: A good rule would be "HTML email consisting entirely of one image"
11:07:30 <ais523> ehirdiphone: yep, that's a massively good rule
11:07:38 <ais523> and my mail client's configured to be unable to read those
11:07:40 <fizzie> The rule name also says "DATE_PAST_20XX", which seems to imply 2100-or-later, but apparently the contents were more "2010-or-later".
11:07:48 <ais523> I turned HTML mail support off
11:08:02 <ais523> fizzie: it was a regex
11:08:11 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, they make emails in HTML these days? ;P
11:08:27 <AnMaster> spam seems to be just pretty much random text to me
11:08:35 <AnMaster> maybe the spammy bit is in the html bit
11:08:41 <ais523> spam tends to be random text plus one image that contains the actual message
11:08:46 <AnMaster> turned that off
11:08:52 <ehirdiphone> Html emails would be ok if people didn't abuse them
11:09:00 <ais523> hmm, agreed
11:09:10 <ais523> but the sort of people who send HTML email in the first place are the sort of people who abuse them
11:09:13 <ehirdiphone> No <font>, no whole email styling, no layout
11:09:17 <ais523> I hate it when I get an email formatted as if it's a webpage
11:09:27 <ais523> and not just any webpage, but table-layout and designed for one screen res
11:09:38 <ehirdiphone> Then it just lets you put data tables lists bold italics links in comfortably
11:09:42 <ais523> with loads of images
11:09:42 <ehirdiphone> Which is a good thing
11:09:46 <ais523> ehirdiphone: agreed
11:09:51 <AnMaster> great. They have two numbers for the same module
11:10:00 <ais523> using it as an actual markup language for word-processing, etc, would be fine
11:10:00 <ehirdiphone> And images... With discretion
11:10:05 <ehirdiphone> Eg to caption them
11:10:06 <AnMaster> depending on what you are studding
11:10:17 <ehirdiphone> But no.
11:10:20 <AnMaster> due to different scales used for the marks on them
11:10:21 <ais523> AnMaster: do they carry different credit on the two courses?
11:10:23 <ehirdiphone> Society ruined them :P
11:10:36 <ais523> I was in a module like that, it was worth 10 credits to MEng students but 20 to MSc students
11:10:47 <AnMaster> ais523, as in 3/4/5 vs. U/G/VG
11:10:51 <AnMaster> actually hm
11:10:58 <AnMaster> those are not 1:1 mappings either
11:11:18 <AnMaster> ais523, MEng? MSc?
11:11:32 <ais523> AnMaster: different degrees, with the same value but different subjects
11:11:36 <ais523> master of engineering, master of science
11:11:54 <AnMaster> hm
11:13:30 <fizzie> MtU, "Master of the Universe".
11:14:07 <ais523> /20[1-9][0-9]/
11:14:13 <ais523> something feels /so/ wrong with that regex
11:14:19 <AnMaster> ais523, they should update the rule to 2020
11:14:32 <ais523> it doesn't even catch spam dated 2100!
11:14:37 <ais523> AnMaster: that's what they /did/!
11:14:37 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
11:14:45 <AnMaster> ais523, what? I was ironic...
11:14:53 <ehirdiphone> Sarcastic
11:15:02 <AnMaster> well yeah
11:15:13 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Did they at least add:
11:15:17 <AnMaster> ais523, why not change the rule to "more than x years in the future from now"
11:15:27 <ehirdiphone> precondition (year < 2020)
11:15:42 <ais523> no, all they changed was one digit in the regex
11:15:48 <ehirdiphone> Sigh.
11:15:54 <AnMaster> also what about spam from before 1990
11:15:55 <ehirdiphone> Incompetent fools.
11:15:57 <AnMaster> that happened to me
11:16:00 <AnMaster> back-dated spam
11:16:12 <fizzie> Colored diff: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/spamassassin/rules/branches/3.2/72_active.cf?r1=758225&r2=895073&diff_format=h
11:16:12 <AnMaster> ais523, what spam filter software was it?
11:16:22 <ehirdiphone> Spamassasin we've told you
11:16:22 <ais523> SpamAssassin
11:16:24 <AnMaster> oh no, not spamassassin
11:16:26 <AnMaster> sigh
11:16:27 <ehirdiphone> Pay attention
11:16:43 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I have been trying to track down a book I'm unable to locate
11:16:52 <AnMaster> and is required literature
11:16:58 <AnMaster> they didn't even give ISBN or anything
11:17:04 <ehirdiphone> Try a torrent site
11:17:20 <ais523> ugh, no
11:17:25 <ais523> no recommending illegal practices
11:17:33 <ehirdiphone> Stfu.
11:18:01 <Pthing> smoke weed every day
11:18:17 <ais523> #esoteric is bad enough for your brain
11:18:22 <ais523> don't use chemicals as well
11:18:23 <ehirdiphone> Kill people. Kill EVERYONE.
11:18:34 <ehirdiphone> ais523: ok nanny
11:18:47 <ehirdiphone> And I'll be in bed by six too
11:19:20 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Do you drink coffee?
11:19:25 <ais523> no
11:19:31 <ehirdiphone> Tea?
11:19:34 <ais523> no
11:19:44 <ehirdiphone> Any carbonated beverage?
11:19:45 <ais523> nor cola, before you ask, I gave it up years ago
11:19:52 <ehirdiphone> Chocolate?
11:19:55 <ais523> I do drink lemonade on occasion
11:20:04 <ais523> and do eat chocolate, although it annoys me
11:20:12 <ais523> mostly because there's nothing /else/ to eat here
11:20:16 <ehirdiphone> Stop using mind altering drugs.
11:20:31 <ais523> yes, I know
11:20:37 <ehirdiphone> What's that? Chocolate doesn't count? Oh, because it's legal?...
11:20:40 <ais523> ehirdiphone: you'd be surprised how much I try to cut own on them
11:20:43 <ais523> even the legal ones
11:20:54 <ais523> *cut down
11:20:59 <ehirdiphone> Why?
11:21:13 <ehirdiphone> Chocolate doesn't damage your health really...
11:21:25 <ais523> yep, that's part of the reason I don't run away from it
11:21:42 <ais523> it's not just health damage that's the issue, it's lack of control over your own thoughts
11:21:46 <ehirdiphone> (cannabis is safer than alcohol...)
11:21:58 <ais523> I only got a testosterone rush once, but I /hated/ it
11:22:03 <ais523> and that isn't even a drug
11:22:10 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Eh. I wouldn't say caffeine makes me irrational.
11:22:17 <ehirdiphone> Nor chocolate.
11:22:19 <ais523> I suppose so
11:22:31 <ais523> although, my sleep patterns are really screwed up atm, I doubt caffeine would make that any better
11:22:54 <ehirdiphone> Try polyphasic!
11:22:57 <ehirdiphone> :p
11:23:42 <ais523> heh, I've been on semiphasic before
11:23:49 <ehirdiphone> Eh?
11:23:56 <ais523> sleeping once every 2 days, for longer
11:24:03 <ais523> not really deliberately, either
11:24:04 <ehirdiphone> Ouch.
11:24:08 <ehirdiphone> Bad for you.
11:24:11 <ais523> and last month, I managed to sleep for 24 hours in a row
11:24:14 <ais523> which I didn't even realise was possible
11:24:33 <ehirdiphone> You're hurting yourself more than could :P
11:24:38 <ehirdiphone> WTF
11:24:48 <ehirdiphone> I typed cannabis in between those words
11:24:52 <ehirdiphone> Strange
11:24:59 <ais523> I know it's bad for me, and am deliberately trying to get to a consistent sleep pattern
11:25:11 <ais523> for a while I was on a bed-at-7, wake-at-2 pattern, which is surprisingly nice
11:25:20 <ais523> that's 7pm, 2am
11:25:28 <ais523> I love the dawn, although more in summer than in winter
11:25:39 <ehirdiphone> If you're unable to stick with monophasic sleep, I seriously suggest polyphasic
11:25:53 <ehirdiphone> It beats inconsistent schedules any day
11:26:14 <ais523> polyphasic doesn't really fit with commuting to use the Internet
11:26:14 <ehirdiphone> Biphasic is also an option (noon siesta)
11:26:31 <ehirdiphone> which is natural
11:26:34 <ehirdiphone> For adults
11:26:43 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Why? boredom?
11:27:05 <ais523> risk of injury, too, in all this snowy weather
11:27:09 <ais523> I'm not the most coordinated person
11:27:20 <ais523> I have problems with various objects that most people seem to understand innately
11:27:22 <ais523> like doors, and chairs
11:27:25 <ehirdiphone> Polyphasic doesn't leave you groggy...
11:27:30 <ais523> gah, the trouble I have with doors
11:27:38 <ais523> ehirdiphone: it's not grogginess that's the problem
11:27:43 <ais523> it's needing to commute several times a day
11:27:51 <ehirdiphone> XD
11:27:53 <ais523> one way to use the Internet, the other to sleep
11:28:03 <ehirdiphone> And?
11:28:22 <ais523> it would be worse still if I had to catch the bus, like I used to
11:28:34 <ais523> polyphasic's around 3-4 hour wake periods, isn't it?
11:28:45 <ais523> I'd spend half my working life travelling, not exactly an efficient use of time
11:28:56 <ehirdiphone> 4 hours for Uberman, 6 hours for Tesla
11:29:17 <ehirdiphone> ais523: polyohasers can sleep anywhere
11:29:29 <ais523> wouldn't it at least require a bed?
11:29:34 <ehirdiphone> literally; if you rest and it's nap time
11:29:39 <ehirdiphone> you fall asleep
11:29:48 <ehirdiphone> and wake up at the right time
11:29:49 <ais523> besides, the University doesn't have a residential licence, so you can't legally sleep there
11:29:56 <ais523> well, for the office buildings
11:30:01 <ehirdiphone> Always the legalistic
11:30:06 <ehirdiphone> *legalist
11:30:20 <ais523> the health and safety rules are different for business and residential buildings
11:30:32 <ais523> I think, for instance, bedrooms are required to have windows opening to outside the building
11:30:41 <ais523> so the fire services can rescue you if there's a fire while you're asleep
11:30:58 <ais523> and so residential buildings are much thinner and snakier than office buildings
11:31:16 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Consider Everyman then. You sleep ~3 hours at night, and like 2-3 naps in the day
11:31:36 <ais523> also, monophasic's required term-time, as I have a teaching job
11:31:44 <ehirdiphone> The inventor of Uberman raises a kid while on Everyman
11:32:16 <ais523> raising a kid seems like a really good use of polyphasic sleep
11:32:33 <ehirdiphone> Post random wakeup stage, I believe.
11:32:36 <ais523> it's not like kids assign you 4-hour marking sessions every week
11:33:13 <ehirdiphone> Startup company would also work well
11:33:24 <ais523> yes, agreed
11:33:33 <ehirdiphone> More work time, for one :P
11:33:40 <ehirdiphone> and no allnighters
11:34:42 <ehirdiphone> I've been up since 22:00 yesterday
11:35:55 <ais523> 13 hours, reasonable for monophasic
11:36:45 <ehirdiphone> but I barely ate all night
11:37:01 <ehirdiphone> and i'm always more tired on inverse monophasic
11:37:46 <AnMaster> okay fun
11:37:55 <AnMaster> the fucking book is out of print not to be printed again it seems
11:38:04 <ehirdiphone> Torrent sites.
11:38:12 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, was that to me?
11:38:17 <ehirdiphone> Yes.
11:38:38 <AnMaster> also a rare Swedish book about electronic circuits
11:38:51 <ehirdiphone> Erotic. I mean esoteric.
11:38:53 <AnMaster> targeting basic level at university
11:39:25 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, the order form on the publishers website look like it is from 1995
11:39:35 <AnMaster> the book was published in 2002 btw
11:39:38 <fizzie> I have a book like that in Finnish; isn't that almost the same?
11:39:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, different language families ;P
11:40:16 <fizzie> But geographically close, and that's what matters, ain't it?
11:40:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, on a scale from geocities (RIP) to amazon, how professional does this website seem: http://www.natura-laromedel.se/
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11:40:41 <ehirdiphone> Looks fine to me.
11:40:50 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, fizzie, look at the order from at http://www.natura-laromedel.se/Pris.html
11:40:53 <AnMaster> scroll down
11:41:15 <ehirdiphone> Meh. Nothing particularly wrong.
11:41:17 <AnMaster> notice it really opens in the frame on the top page
11:41:23 <ehirdiphone> A cart system would be better.
11:41:28 <AnMaster> indeed it would
11:41:35 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, also there is a fair number of typos on the website
11:41:45 <ehirdiphone> OK, that granted.
11:41:51 <ehirdiphone> I don't know Swedish.
11:41:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, this book's publisher's site is a bit more modern: http://www.gaudeamus.fi/?page_id=18
11:42:09 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, "Kretsteknink och fältteori" ~ "Circuit Tecology and field theory" [sic][
11:42:13 <AnMaster> s/[$//
11:42:58 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, actually the typo would be okay if it was that guy with the faux Russian accent in UF that said it
11:43:14 <AnMaster> "Kretsteknink" should have been "Kretsteknik"
11:43:20 <ehirdiphone> Most annoying gag ever.
11:43:46 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: "Technolongy" then.
11:43:56 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, hah yeah kind of
11:43:58 <ehirdiphone> Not "tecology"
11:44:00 <AnMaster> true
11:44:13 <AnMaster> anyway, the book I'm supposed to get is not even listed there any more
11:44:58 <AnMaster> as for those gags: what about Discworld. The vampires
11:45:05 <AnMaster> and Igors
11:45:27 * AnMaster found Igors saying sausage quite funny
11:47:22 <ehirdiphone> Did those start early on boringly and then inexplicably never stop?
11:48:43 <ehirdiphone> So, I know someone with a Yggdrasil Linux release from 1993. That they actually bought and used. Linux 1.1, XFree86 3.0, a.out, SysV-based. Not even ext2.
11:48:56 <ehirdiphone> Am I oldskool by association?
11:49:16 <ehirdiphone> (They switched to Slackware soon after.)
11:50:11 <AnMaster> Yggdrasil Linux?
11:50:14 <AnMaster> I never heard of it
11:50:16 <fizzie> No, but you are guilty by association.
11:51:25 <AnMaster> oh great, someone had scheduled a lab on a bank holiday, I found this and sent a mail asking about it. So it was moved to the day after. When I have another lab at the same time
11:51:27 <AnMaster> how fun
11:52:04 <AnMaster> so now I'm supposed to be having a lab in in the database course at the same time as I'm having one in C programming
11:52:15 <AnMaster> I guess I'll have to split in half or something
11:55:23 <ehirdiphone> Yggdrasil was one of the first commercial Linux distro
11:55:28 <ehirdiphone> Maybe the first
11:55:32 <ehirdiphone> *distros
11:55:52 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, went bankrupt?
11:55:54 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Hey, they did it in the Harry Potter books
11:55:57 <AnMaster> or was it renamed?
11:56:07 <ehirdiphone> You just need a magical watch thing.
11:56:16 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Died.
11:56:25 <ehirdiphone> Maybe bought out and killed
11:56:26 <ehirdiphone> Dunno
11:56:37 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well could you nip over to the ministry of magic there and steal one for me?
11:56:42 <AnMaster> well,*
11:56:47 <ehirdiphone> His box says $4/min phone support apparently
11:56:49 <ehirdiphone> Ouch
11:57:04 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, that's expensive
11:57:08 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Pretty sure it was just something Dumbledore has
11:57:12 <ehirdiphone> *had
11:57:43 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, iirc they found one at that ministry in the book where they were fighting in there
11:57:53 <ehirdiphone> "...and now start X again." "Unknown chicken." "Ah, a libc problem. ..."
11:57:53 <AnMaster> some prophecy thingy
11:57:56 <AnMaster> forgot which book it was
11:58:29 <ehirdiphone> It would have been fun and worthwhile to make your own Linux in those days
11:58:32 * AnMaster wonders if there is an harry potter wiki
11:58:36 <AnMaster> there probably is
11:58:36 <ehirdiphone> No fast downloads
11:58:42 <ehirdiphone> Pay or DIY
11:58:54 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: There's a whole encyclopedia
11:58:59 <ehirdiphone> Chronologies and all
11:59:03 <ehirdiphone> Not a wiki though
11:59:05 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, those people interested back then would probably DIY mostly I guess
11:59:08 <ehirdiphone> (not official)
11:59:12 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Nah.
11:59:24 <ehirdiphone> Look how successful Slackware was.
11:59:28 <ehirdiphone> Then Debian.
11:59:38 <ehirdiphone> Even SLS, waaaaay back.
11:59:45 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what? there is memory alpha, wookipedia, wiki.lspace? Yet no harry potter wiki?
11:59:54 <ehirdiphone> There may be.
11:59:58 <ehirdiphone> But I thinner
12:00:00 <ehirdiphone> Think
12:00:10 <ehirdiphone> The mist popular thing is the encyc
12:00:13 <ehirdiphone> Most
12:00:24 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, lovely spelling correction on iphones
12:00:34 <ehirdiphone> Beats other phones
12:00:42 <ehirdiphone> I just type fast
12:00:46 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, how does it work? as in suggestions as you type?
12:01:14 <ehirdiphone> You type, suggestions appear above words as you type. Space or enter confirms a correction automatically.
12:01:20 <AnMaster> my phone has that, as you pretty just once on the button for the letter when composing an SMS and it tries to guess what word it may be, and you can cycle through ones it suggests
12:01:21 <ehirdiphone> Touch the correction to cancel.
12:01:32 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, ah cool
12:01:34 <ehirdiphone> It uses several prices of data:
12:01:46 <ehirdiphone> How close you were to certain keys when hitting one
12:01:50 <ehirdiphone> Dictionaries
12:01:52 <ehirdiphone> etc
12:02:09 <AnMaster> the closeness thing sounds cool
12:02:29 <ehirdiphone> Without it I'd make 10x the errors.
12:02:33 <AnMaster> so there is a virtual keyboard on it you type on? Not hand writing thing
12:02:39 <ehirdiphone> Yes.
12:02:45 <AnMaster> both?
12:02:49 <ehirdiphone> Faster this way & more accurate
12:02:51 <AnMaster> which do you use of them then
12:02:54 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Keyboard
12:02:56 <ehirdiphone> Only
12:03:08 * AnMaster remembers some old Palm with hand writing thing
12:03:10 <ehirdiphone> Tried a text recognization app once
12:03:12 <ehirdiphone> Sucked
12:03:27 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: The Apple Newton was king if handwriting
12:03:34 <ehirdiphone> Even better than Palm.
12:03:47 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, surely then apple could reuse some of that technology in the iphone
12:03:49 <ehirdiphone> But keyboards are simply faster and more accurate.
12:04:01 <ehirdiphone> And the iphone is small
12:04:05 <ehirdiphone> The Newton was big
12:04:09 <AnMaster> how much of the screen does the keyboard fill
12:04:27 <ehirdiphone> A little under half, vertically.
12:04:32 <ehirdiphone> All, horizontally.
12:04:38 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, so very small irc window?
12:05:00 <ehirdiphone> Six lines. The keyboard only pops up when you need it anyway
12:05:11 <AnMaster> on irc, wouldn't that be almost constantly
12:05:17 <ehirdiphone> Fifteen lines without the kb.
12:05:32 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: I just tap off when i'm not responding
12:05:42 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what about feedback, I guess there is none?
12:05:47 <AnMaster> I mean, tactile
12:06:30 <ehirdiphone> None. But the large keys + correction beat other phones, with tiny, clacky keys and barely any correction.
12:06:44 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, sure
12:06:47 <ehirdiphone> You can have audio taps if you like that sort of thing.
12:06:49 <ehirdiphone> I don't.
12:07:00 <AnMaster> phones really aren't meant for writing a lot on
12:07:05 <ehirdiphone> Indeed.
12:07:28 <ehirdiphone> It does quite commendably for such an edge case as irc
12:07:37 <AnMaster> nice
12:07:52 <ehirdiphone> Would be fun to have a Dasher app
12:08:01 <ehirdiphone> Way slower than a kb though
12:08:12 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, even with eye tracking?
12:08:28 <ehirdiphone> With eye tracking it'd be glacial.
12:08:30 * AnMaster should try dasher some time
12:08:37 <ehirdiphone> The eye can't track very precisely..,
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12:08:46 <ehirdiphone> *...
12:17:44 <ehirdiphone> I should write a bookmarks system I actually like
12:20:01 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, "Dasher is not good nor does it work very well, however, it is quite fun", took a while to write
12:20:05 <AnMaster> in dasher
12:20:44 <ehirdiphone> It is an accessibility tool. It is good.
12:20:59 <ehirdiphone> I can write quite fast with dasher
12:21:04 <ehirdiphone> About 10wpm
12:21:12 <ehirdiphone> Or could at least
12:21:26 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well yes for that it is good
12:21:26 <ehirdiphone> Set it to fast
12:21:38 <ehirdiphone> Make sure to use a trained data set
12:21:48 <ehirdiphone> And keep the cursor at the right
12:21:51 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I planned to write "not good for normal usage" but I was unable to locate "for" at that point ;P
12:22:01 <ehirdiphone> Look in the gaps
12:22:11 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, also writing my name took ages
12:22:17 <AnMaster> not surprising
12:22:18 <ehirdiphone> Alphabetical order :P
12:22:27 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, yes I figured out that about "nor"
12:22:35 <AnMaster> well the "r" in nor
12:23:32 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what does the green and yellow boxes mean
12:23:34 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Want some fun? Type "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog." in Dasher repeatedly
12:23:35 <AnMaster> the white one is space
12:23:44 <ehirdiphone> By the fifth time it'll be trivial
12:23:45 <AnMaster> the green contained comma I found out
12:23:51 <ehirdiphone> Soon enough
12:23:56 <ehirdiphone> The ENTIRE SCREEN
12:24:04 <ehirdiphone> Is lazy dogs and foxes
12:24:05 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, it learns it as you type you mean?
12:24:10 <ehirdiphone> Yep
12:24:21 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, okay, still the green and yellow boxes after the letters
12:24:33 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Colour is character type maybe?
12:24:37 <ehirdiphone> Or just random
12:24:42 <AnMaster> ah hm yellow seems to be upper case
12:24:48 <ehirdiphone> So you can see the nesting
12:24:58 <ehirdiphone> You can often see letters in letters
12:25:03 <ehirdiphone> So it's useful
12:26:05 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, actually there are some fixed special ones at the end. As far as I tell it is: yellow contains upper case letters, green contains comma, period and similar, plus a few I'm not sure about, white is space
12:26:36 <AnMaster> ah seems the dead key bit in é may be in the green area too
12:27:23 <AnMaster> hm no
12:27:29 <ehirdiphone> Requirements of a good bookmark system: Stores the page on disk. Offers full text search. One category per bookmark, not tags, assigned after the fact (bookmark button requires no input, all automatic); categorise them once every few days, say
12:28:04 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, storing page on disk. So offline cache?
12:28:20 <ais523> what about a tag system that can be used for categories instead if you prefer by only using a single tag; would you approve or disapprove?
12:28:21 <ehirdiphone> Yes. For full text search and in case the page goes offline
12:28:45 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Disapprove. You can think of a hundred tags for every link.
12:29:01 <ehirdiphone> A simple choice from a short list is much less like work.
12:29:34 <ehirdiphone> The idea is: Make saving bookmarks really easy, and finding them really easy.
12:29:48 <ehirdiphone> Otherwise, I won't bother to use it.
12:30:34 <ais523> I use bookmarks as a TVtropes queue, works wonders
12:30:45 <ehirdiphone> It's also important that they're in bookmarks.HTML format so I can use them from my browser
12:30:46 <ais523> as in, mark pages I want to read sometime, but not necessarily now
12:30:54 <ais523> means you can read just one page without regrets
12:30:55 <ehirdiphone> With two special links:
12:31:12 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I seem unable to write "café" in dasher
12:31:19 <ehirdiphone> "Search bookmarks" (to http://localhost:12345 or whatever)
12:31:21 <ehirdiphone> and
12:31:33 <ehirdiphone> "Bookmarks page"
12:31:51 <ehirdiphone> to ~/foo/bookmarks.HTML
12:32:09 <ehirdiphone> which has a symlinks in the browsers directory
12:32:14 <ehirdiphone> *symlink
12:32:39 <ehirdiphone> also, the HTML page should be styled, eg three column format with category headers
12:32:43 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, very strange that the English model doesn't allow English words ;)
12:32:48 <ehirdiphone> to fit them all on the screen
12:33:00 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: The English word is "cafe" :p
12:33:07 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, aspell disagrees
12:33:17 <ehirdiphone> Your mom agrees.
12:33:34 <ehirdiphone> hmm
12:33:39 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, wikipedia agrees with me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caf%C3%A9
12:33:54 <ehirdiphone> you should be able to go to cgi pages on file:// urls
12:34:04 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, "In the United Kingdom and Ireland a café (with the acute accent) is similar to those in other European countries, while a cafe (without acute accent) refers to a Greasy spoon style restaurant"
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12:34:27 <ehirdiphone> So you can have ~/bookmarks/search.cgi without running a server all the time
12:34:59 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I'm quite sure it would add a lot of complexity few people would use to the browser ;P
12:35:03 <ehirdiphone> file:///home/ehird/bookmarks/search.cgi?query=butts
12:35:09 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: shaddup
12:35:24 <ehirdiphone> You could even give it a keyword
12:35:35 <ehirdiphone> So you can go to "bm butts"
12:35:37 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, but doesn't lynx or links2 or some such have limited support for it?
12:35:38 <AnMaster> iirc
12:36:05 <AnMaster> " If built with the cgi-links option enabled, Lynx allows access to a cgi script directly without the need for an http daemon."
12:36:07 <AnMaster> from man page
12:36:12 <ehirdiphone> Cute.
12:36:19 <ehirdiphone> I'm mostly joking, anyway.
12:36:31 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, seems like someone took the idea seriously
12:36:47 <ehirdiphone> Time travellers!
12:37:40 <ehirdiphone> hmm... You could train a spam filter to automatically categorise the bookmarks :D
12:38:25 <ehirdiphone> which would work if you bookmark porn and programming, but not, say, physics and mathematics..,
12:38:28 <ehirdiphone> *...
12:39:23 <ehirdiphone> And porn and chemistry? Only if you don't study cummingtonite.
12:39:28 <ehirdiphone> *rimshot*
12:52:26 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, Programming and mathematics wouldn't work either
12:52:51 <ehirdiphone> Wrong.
12:53:01 <AnMaster> oh?
12:53:10 <AnMaster> why would it work better than physics and math?
12:53:14 <ehirdiphone> Theoretical CS and mathematics would probably not be TOO bad either.
12:53:39 <ehirdiphone> Programming involves no lemmas. No mathematical notation.
12:53:48 <ehirdiphone> No mathematical shorthand.
12:53:50 <ais523> I can imagine web pages which would be both
12:53:57 <ehirdiphone> No statements and proofs.
12:53:58 <ais523> but it's less likely than a web page about one or the other
12:54:01 <ehirdiphone> Need I go on?
12:54:47 <ais523> ehirdiphone: how would you categorise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra%27s_algorithm
12:54:49 <ais523> maths or programming?
12:55:00 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, Math notation sure. For example I had course literature that discussed discrete mathematics and used lisp to demonstrate some things
12:59:38 <ehirdiphone> Ais523: programming/cs
13:06:18 <ehirdiphone> I wish you could do this in /etc/hosts:
13:06:28 <ehirdiphone> foo
13:06:33 <ehirdiphone> eg
13:06:54 <ehirdiphone> search-bookmarks
13:07:16 <ehirdiphone> http://search-bookmarks/?q=butts
13:07:41 <ehirdiphone> would be an acceptable substitute for named ports
13:07:53 <ehirdiphone> For some uses
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13:34:46 <soupdragon> is singularity possible or just sci fi ?
13:35:22 <ais523> not actually possible, there are fundamental limits on the amount of information in the universe
13:35:40 <ais523> the concept of a self-improving AI is, I think, theoretically possible but hundreds of years out, or maybe even thousands
13:35:42 <soupdragon> really the universe is finite ?
13:35:56 <ais523> the observable universe is
13:36:15 <soupdragon> I don't know what that emans
13:36:15 <ais523> and you can't store information outside the observable portion
13:36:21 <soupdragon> why not?
13:36:27 <ais523> soupdragon: it's basically a consequence of the speed of light and the expansion of the universe
13:36:32 <soupdragon> oh okay
13:36:43 <ais523> some points are expanding at a rate, relative to you, that means even sending data at the speed of light, you'd never reach them
13:40:31 <ais523> so even if you filled the entire observable universe with black holes, there'd only be a finite amount of information you'd ever be able to store, let alone retrieve
13:40:48 <ais523> (apparently, black holes have the best storage density of any known object)
13:40:57 <ais523> (probably because they have the best density full stop)
14:05:44 <mycroftiv> the black hole information loss problem is really fascinating
14:06:37 <mycroftiv> hawking's semi-recent idea that the 'sum over all histories' means there is no information loss from black holes because in the universe histories where black holes didnt form the information didnt go away makes my head hurt
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14:18:38 <AnMaster> does anyone know if the SQL standard is available for free of if it is "pay for a copy" style?
14:19:15 <oerjan> and then suddenly the logs are back to the old GMT-8 time zone again...
14:20:22 <AnMaster> sigh, not free it seems
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14:30:41 <ais523> check to see if there are free drafts
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15:15:58 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Singularity is posdie. ais523 is mistaken about what it means
15:16:09 <soupdragon> posdie??
15:16:16 <ais523> ehirdiphone: technically, it isn't a singularity if it doesn't explode to infinity
15:16:17 <ehirdiphone> Possible
15:16:19 <ais523> mathematically, at least
15:16:35 <ehirdiphone> ais523: That is not what a technological singularity is.
15:16:40 <soupdragon> part of me asking this is to understand what it means
15:17:05 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: A self improving ai that accelerates to intelligence far above human
15:17:20 <soupdragon> :(
15:18:24 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: If you want to learn more, pointers: Vernor Vinge, Eliezer Yudkowsky, Creating Friendly AI (a work with actual practical implications), Less Wrong,
15:18:48 <ehirdiphone> Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
15:18:51 <soupdragon> yeah I have Eliezer Yudkowsky bookmarked from when you mentioned before
15:19:24 <ehirdiphone> (namedrop: Douglas hofstadter attended the institute's 2009 summit and gave a talk)
15:19:31 <soupdragon> :/
15:19:37 <soupdragon> that doesn't instill confidence in me
15:19:55 <soupdragon> the opposite infact
15:19:58 <ehirdiphone> I pity the foo who dislikes Hofstadter
15:20:13 <ehirdiphone> Crazy, yes. Interesting, undoubtedbly.
15:20:43 <soupdragon> Bookworm, Run! good?
15:20:48 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: anyway one of three things will happen in the next couple hundred years
15:20:53 <ehirdiphone> Singularity
15:20:57 <ehirdiphone> Extinction
15:21:00 <ehirdiphone> Stasis
15:21:05 <ehirdiphone> 3 is unlikely
15:21:16 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Eh?
15:21:28 <soupdragon> ehird read metamorphosis of prime intelletc
15:21:34 <soupdragon> it's a book by Vernor Vinge
15:21:58 <ehirdiphone> vernor vinge, just read his original writing
15:22:07 <ehirdiphone> that coined singularity as a term
15:22:30 <soupdragon> link ?
15:22:38 <soupdragon> I don't know what exactly you're referring to
15:22:41 <ehirdiphone> Wikipedia it.
15:22:47 <ehirdiphone> It has a link on his page
15:22:50 <soupdragon> I am looking at the wiki page :/
15:23:03 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: I'll find it in a no
15:23:05 <ehirdiphone> Mo
15:23:08 <soupdragon> The Coming Technological Singularity:
15:23:08 <soupdragon> How to Survive in the Post-Human Era
15:23:09 <ehirdiphone> Just a warning
15:23:09 <soupdragon> this?
15:23:12 <ehirdiphone> Yes
15:23:15 <soupdragon> okay
15:23:41 <ehirdiphone> Singularity will inevitably lead you to the rationalist community, they are almost identical
15:23:51 <ehirdiphone> And that is a very deep rabbit hole
15:23:55 <ehirdiphone> If you don't wa
15:23:56 <soupdragon> you mean, I will become a rationalist?
15:24:12 <ehirdiphone> nt to change how you think forever, forget this
15:24:17 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: probably
15:24:30 <ehirdiphone> It'll be in the back of your mind even if you dint
15:24:35 <ehirdiphone> *don't
15:25:22 <ehirdiphone> First time I ignored it, second time I tried to forget it.. Third time, it's got me
15:25:31 <soupdragon> :))))
15:26:13 <soupdragon> ehird I don't want to give away plot details
15:26:19 <soupdragon> but I am thinking about this book a lot
15:26:29 <soupdragon> probably because I read it all in one go
15:26:44 <ehirdiphone> I read the wp plot summary. Forgotten a bit but I remember I think some parts
15:27:07 <soupdragon> well it's very similar to Last Question actually
15:27:27 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Eliezer Yudkowsky happens to be an excellent scifi writer btw - "Rhree
15:27:29 <ehirdiphone> Erm
15:27:39 <ehirdiphone> "Three Worlds Collide"
15:27:52 <ehirdiphone> (not singularity. About ethics though)
15:28:23 <ehirdiphone> (related protip: read the fake ending then the real one. The links there are kinds confusing)
15:28:33 <ehirdiphone> I'm talking too much
15:28:40 <soupdragon> the fake ending of what??
15:28:51 <ehirdiphone> Three Worlds Collide
15:28:54 <soupdragon> okay
15:28:57 <ehirdiphone> I mean
15:29:04 <soupdragon> right now I'm reading this Vinge thing
15:29:06 <ehirdiphone> Before the real ending
15:29:19 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Its a good start
15:29:41 <soupdragon> im studying computational linguistics too
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15:33:05 <ehirdiphone> Btw there *is* a lot of overlap of scifi nerds/singularitarians but not all (Kurzweil isn't a scifi dude, just a fool!) - I think it's because the mainstream discourse has no field for this, it's sort of an all encompassing field - and because ideas originating in scifi are cursed to stay there
15:33:14 <ehirdiphone> But make of it what you will
15:34:19 <soupdragon> yeah sometimes when I read sci-fi and I think about how cool the stuff is and how I want it be real I feel like an insane person that thinks video games are real
15:34:40 <ehirdiphone> Sci fi is a peculiar genre
15:34:49 <ehirdiphone> We think what we want and write it
15:34:56 <ehirdiphone> With some twists
15:35:12 <ehirdiphone> It's not like fantasy
15:35:31 <ais523> fiction's made out of setting and plot
15:35:32 <ehirdiphone> It's just a way of weaving a story from our desires
15:35:38 <ais523> the setting differs between genres, the plots don't really
15:35:57 <ehirdiphone> Hard sci fi has unique plots.
15:36:05 <ehirdiphone> As unique as they get anyway
15:36:06 <soupdragon> well I really felt that Last Question and Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect has the /same/ plot
15:36:29 <ehirdiphone> I ought to get round to writing my singularity short story
15:36:34 <soupdragon> different details, one could be the sequel of the other
15:36:45 <ehirdiphone> It isn't very good, but I'll end up writing it anyway
15:37:22 <ehirdiphone> last question is entirely symbolic IMO
15:37:31 <soupdragon> oh??
15:37:38 <ehirdiphone> oh to what
15:37:38 <soupdragon> I didn't really think of it in a symbolic way at all
15:38:08 <ehirdiphone> Ac going into a universe away from universe? Nahh. It's about progress, I think
15:38:23 <ehirdiphone> We march on into more prosperous and cl
15:38:30 <ehirdiphone> Combined intelligences
15:38:46 <ehirdiphone> But we still have the same unanswerable question
15:38:55 <soupdragon> aha
15:39:00 <ehirdiphone> and you can only answer it when it's subject is gone
15:39:09 <ehirdiphone> Ac is outside universe
15:39:14 <ehirdiphone> So no entropy
15:39:25 <ehirdiphone> And that's how it solves the question
15:39:37 <ehirdiphone> So yeah, I see it as symbolic
15:39:57 <soupdragon> how is that symbolic ?
15:39:59 <ehirdiphone> Sort of a combination:
15:40:16 <ehirdiphone> "You can never understand a system fully from the inside"
15:40:20 <ehirdiphone> and
15:40:49 <ehirdiphone> "No matter how far we progress, we're still bound by the limitation of being in the universe"
15:41:09 <soupdragon> yeah
15:41:35 <ehirdiphone> I think the basically religious ending (AC becomes pure energy outside the universe and the genesis quote) made me sure it wasn't a literal story as such
15:42:11 <ehirdiphone> entropy is a bastard though totally
15:42:25 <soupdragon> heave you heard of maxwells demon?
15:42:30 <ehirdiphone> Yes
15:43:06 <soupdragon> I just read about for the first time a couple weeks ago, came across it in the physics section of the library
15:44:46 <soupdragon> I don't get entropy at all, biogenesis goes completely against (my understanding of) it
15:44:58 <ehirdiphone> You said you study computational linguistics funny because I'm pretty sure any ai will involve a fuckton of it
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15:48:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, ais523: either of you uses lyx?
15:48:34 <AnMaster> or ehirdiphone maybe
15:48:41 <ais523> AnMaster: I have it installed, but rarely use it
15:48:43 * AnMaster is having an annoying little problem
15:49:16 <ehirdiphone> Lyx is latex for pussies who can't type \, { and }
15:49:22 <ehirdiphone> :))))
15:49:31 <AnMaster> basically there is a paragraph "type" called "LyX-Code" that is similar to <pre> in HTML in it's results. However it also results in the paragraph being slightly indented
15:50:04 <AnMaster> which usually is not very bad, but here when I need it inside a table looks rather strange to say the least
15:50:34 <AnMaster> wondered if anyone knew how to get rid of that 0.5-1 em or so indentation
15:50:38 <AnMaster> indention*
15:51:58 <AnMaster> err was correct first time
15:52:53 <ehirdiphone> I suggest using a can of manliness and uninstalling LyX.
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15:54:02 <fizzie> I've been dabbling with LyX for short one-off documents (like single-course homework reports and such) but can't say I've ever used the "LyX-Code" style.
15:54:04 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, it is quite nice I found.
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15:54:34 <fizzie> I have used the "insert/program listing" thing, which I guess uses the "standard" listings package for formatting.
15:54:57 <AnMaster> hm
15:55:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, could work, I don't think it had that when I started to use LyX some years ago. Probably explains why I got used to using LyX-code isntead
15:55:28 <AnMaster> instead*
15:55:57 <fizzie> Yes, it seems it was added in 1.5.0-beta3.
15:56:22 <fizzie> There
15:56:25 <AnMaster> right, began with 1.4.x
15:56:31 <AnMaster> and yes it seems to solve the issue, thanks
15:56:49 <fizzie> 's a "document/settings/text layout/Listing settings" thing where you can stick any parameters supported by the listings package, if you want frames around listings or whatever.
15:57:22 <AnMaster> hm doesn't seem to be a nice way to make it remember defaults for future listing insertion
15:58:36 <AnMaster> well copy and paste the listing and replace what's in it would work
16:05:12 <fizzie> Also I have a picture of a very big pyramid: http://zem.fi/g2/d/9571-2/p1050097_panorama.jpg -- taken very near (well, there wasn't much room to back off) and mapped with the equirectangular projection, makes it look even bigger than what it actually is. Especially when you look at the tiny tiny people there.
16:05:28 <fizzie> (What do you mean that's not related?)
16:06:20 <soupdragon> did you take that?
16:06:29 <fizzie> Yes.
16:06:41 <soupdragon> im so jelous..
16:06:59 <soupdragon> can you tell me how it felt to see the pyramids?
16:08:19 <fizzie> A bit underwhelming, to be honest. It's incredibly old, I know, but it's still a pile of rocks that smells very heavily of camel excrement, and is surrounded by a huge mob of all kinds of salespeople and people-not-actually-selling-anything-but-wanting-a-bit-of-money-anyway people.
16:09:02 <fizzie> The not-quite-as-old-but-still-pretty-old tombs in the Valley of the Kings were perhaps more impressive. (Alas, that place had a strict "no photography at all" rule.)
16:10:14 <fizzie> (To be fair, I guess it's not the pyramid itself that's smelly, just the surroundings. I doubt you'd get a camel to walk actually on that thing.)
16:10:43 <soupdragon> well it's an incedible photo
16:11:31 <fizzie> Here's also one of the source images that went into the composite; this one probably appeals more to people who don't like the fisheye-ness of the first one: http://zem.fi/g2/d/9574-2/p1050103.jpg
16:11:56 <soupdragon> im a bit surprised you didn't like it
16:12:26 <soupdragon> I always imagined that seeing the pyramids would be a really powerful and emotional experience
16:13:12 <ehirdiphone> just big rocks with dead people inside
16:13:29 <fizzie> Not much inside at this point, too.
16:14:05 <ehirdiphone> Did you go inside?
16:14:23 <ehirdiphone> I'd be too freaked to, irrational fear of mine
16:14:25 <fizzie> It was worth visiting, to be sure. It's just that having to say "no, no" every twenty seconds to someone who tries to get his camel in your photo so that he can ask for money for the privilege detracted from the experience, I think.
16:14:29 <ehirdiphone> Can't seem to shake it
16:15:21 <fizzie> No. From what I hear, they're pretty cramped (no room to stand up + bazillion other people trying to push you around).
16:15:32 <ehirdiphone> fizzie: Photo the camel and then DON'T PAY. You will overthrow the state
16:17:17 <fizzie> But that would be against the established social order of things.
16:17:37 <soupdragon> fear of going inside buildings? :P
16:18:16 <fizzie> We did go inside the Valley of the Kings tombs (well, three of them, as was included in the ticket); those were nice and roomy, and nicely decorated.
16:18:59 <ehirdiphone> sweet gcc has __builtin_constant_p
16:19:13 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: just fear of Egyptian mythology I guess
16:19:21 <ehirdiphone> or tombs of any kind really
16:19:53 <ehirdiphone> fizzie: Fall into any secret catacombs?
16:20:09 <soupdragon> ah okay
16:20:12 <ehirdiphone> You know, with horrible beasts in the pitch black and untold riches.
16:21:38 <fizzie> No. But it was a bit amusing that about half of the tombs have managed to hit another tomb during the digging, and have had to make awkward 90.degree turns because of that. (Since the tombs were supposed to be hidden, it's not like you could call the municipality for digging directions.)
16:22:33 <fizzie> They've found something like 63 tombs from the not-so-big valley; it probably looks a bit like swiss cheese if you take a cross-section of it.
16:23:04 <fizzie> Everything's been stolen off both the pyramids and the tombs, anyway. We did look at Tutankhamon's stuff in the Egyptian Museum, later. (Also a no-photo place.)
16:24:07 <fizzie> Though I had http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Tut_%28song%29 looping incessantly in my head the whole time we were there.
16:24:08 <ehirdiphone> Toot and char moon
16:26:46 <ehirdiphone> Tootin' car moon
16:27:41 <ehirdiphone> Toot ink arm oom.
16:27:47 <ehirdiphone> *ion
16:27:50 <ehirdiphone> *oon
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19:50:15 <AnMaster> hm would it be possible (in theory) to get a higher resolution scan than "native" resolution of something by taking several scans and moving the scanned thing half a pixel or such in between
19:50:20 <AnMaster> and then interpolate or such
19:53:20 <fizzie> "Moving the scanned thing half a pixel" doesn't sound exactly trivial in many cases.
19:53:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, notice "in theory"
19:53:44 <ais523> AnMaster: apparently, that's how bee vision works
19:53:55 <AnMaster> "huh"
19:54:00 <AnMaster> ais523, really?
19:54:10 <AnMaster> also what? do they move the flowers half a pixel!?
19:54:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, also what about a stepper motor?
19:54:23 <ais523> their vision only has a few hundred pixels
19:54:42 <ais523> but as they move around, they get more info
19:54:48 <fizzie> There's a term for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-resolution
19:55:19 <fizzie> "Multiple-frame SR use the sub-pixel shifts between multiple low resolution images of the same scene. They create an improved resolution image fusing information from all low resolution images, and the created higher resolution images are better descriptions of the scene."
19:57:38 <AnMaster> hm
20:04:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, I wonder if you could use hugin for this, in theory
20:05:09 <AnMaster> of course they would have moved many pixels, but as long as they didn't move exactly whole pixels, you have enough images, no parallax and luck with control points it should work
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20:07:21 <fizzie> The control points by definition move full pixels, though; at least I think their positions are integers in the image coordinates. I would guess you'd have more luck with one of the algos especially designed for the purpose.
20:08:35 <fizzie> Speaking of hugin, did some experimenting with HDR+tone-mapping for one panorama that had both direct-sunlight and in-shadow parts, as I wanted details (engravings) visible for both.
20:08:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, did it work better than enfuse?
20:09:27 <fizzie> Yes and no; I did get better contrast in some parts, but also some artifacts.
20:09:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, also, did you make sure the images were linear? iirc that is quite important (check panotools wiki),
20:09:46 <AnMaster> unlike for enfuse iirc
20:11:04 <fizzie> Well, I didn't follow any guidelines; it was an ex-tempore thing.
20:13:00 <fizzie> I just took a pile of shots at auto-exposure, fixed WB, then optimized positions only (no exposure) and used hugin's built-in "map images to linear color space and blend to a HDR output" mode, followed by one of the psftmo tone-mapping tools.
20:14:47 <fizzie> At least the luminance histogram for the resulting HDR file was strongly bimodal, which is what I'd have expected; the shadowy and sunlighty portions were at rather different value ranges.
20:14:59 <fizzie> I'll try to find the result.
20:19:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, I mean, as in linear sensor data
20:20:10 <AnMaster> iirc that means gamma linearity = 1
20:20:12 <AnMaster> and such
20:20:29 <AnMaster> something to do with not using "color matrix" option in ufraw either
20:21:11 <fizzie> Meh; that doesn't sound like something that couldn't be remapped afterwards.
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20:24:24 <fizzie> http://wiki.panotools.org/HDR_workflow_with_hugin speaks of "unrolling" the images with a calibrate camera response, though the big fat "this is outdated" disclaimer does not fill me with confidence.
20:32:16 <Sgeo> Should I get Visual Studio 2008 Professional Edition if I can get it for free? (I can also get 2010 beta or something)
20:32:36 <Sgeo> No, it's not a beta
20:32:58 <Sgeo> yes it is
20:33:59 <AnMaster> Sgeo, MSDNAA?
20:34:07 <Sgeo> hm?
20:34:14 <AnMaster> Sgeo, well, how else for free?
20:34:21 <Sgeo> DreamSpark
20:34:26 <AnMaster> never heard of that
20:34:32 <Sgeo> https://www.dreamspark.com
20:34:39 <Sgeo> Some software free for students
20:35:00 <AnMaster> Sgeo, get warning about invalid SSL cert
20:35:03 <AnMaster> unknown CA
20:35:10 <Sgeo> I don't get any warnings
20:35:31 <AnMaster> Sgeo, also not free software. Free software = open source
20:35:38 <AnMaster> you mean no-cost or such
20:35:44 <Sgeo> ahaha y2k bug on the website
20:35:54 <uorygl> Well, he never said "free software", only "software free".
20:36:04 <AnMaster> uorygl, ah misread it
20:36:31 <AnMaster> anyway this dreamspark. looks like MSDNA with psychedelic theme ;P
20:36:32 <AnMaster> kind of
20:36:37 <AnMaster> MSDNAA*
20:37:20 <fizzie> DreamSpark is for pretty much any student, though; msdnaa is restricted to participating institutions.
20:38:25 <uorygl> DreamSpark uses the "Microsoft" trademark all over the place and its nameserver is at msft.net.
20:38:26 <fizzie> DreamSpark's also a newer thing. I remember downloading *something* from thee, but I've already forgotten what it was, so I'd guess it wasn't anything too useful.
20:39:58 <fizzie> s/thee/there/; I was not trying to speak Ye Olde Butcherede Englishe.
20:40:00 <uorygl> Let me try that again. DreamSpark uses the "Microsoft" trademark all over the place and has a Wikipedia article; therefore, they're legitimate.
20:41:13 <Sgeo> "You may install one copy of the Software made available to You through the Student Program on Your own device, but only (a) to support Your science, technology, engineering, mathematics and/or design (STEM-D) education; (b) in non-commercial STEM-D research; or (c) to design, develop, test, and demonstrate software programs for the above purposes."
20:41:21 <Sgeo> Fuck you
20:41:37 <Sgeo> Well, actually, in a sense, _anything_ I do in it supports my education, right? >:D
20:41:48 <uorygl> Of course. What were you planning to do with it?
20:43:08 <Sgeo> Write stuff. Perhaps be able to participate again in the game I was fired from (They're using C# now. I'm no longer the primary programmer, but can participate if I learn C#). Maybe a Second Life bot (libSL is a .NET ... thingy, so I _could_ try to figure out IronPython, but all examples are C#)
20:44:44 <Sgeo> 3GB :/
20:44:57 <Sgeo> I think I'll just download Visual Studio C# Express for now
20:45:46 <uorygl> What is this game?
20:46:18 <Sgeo> uorygl, sort of a futuristic clone of an Active Worlds game that died in 2005
20:46:46 <Sgeo> I'm technically still irreplacable as the person who knows the most about that game, but am apparently replacable as programmer.
20:49:18 <uorygl> Were you fired for any reason other than not knowing C#?
20:49:59 <Sgeo> uorygl, for not getting the work done
20:50:03 <Sgeo> I kept doing other things
20:50:33 <Sgeo> uorygl, C# is only a requirement because that's what my replacement's most comfortable with
20:50:33 <uorygl> Ah.
20:51:28 <Sgeo> On New Years Eve, I was in-world, and they were trying to talk to me, but I was in another window. Then, later, I was telegrammed (which plays a sound, getting my attention) that I was replaced
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21:23:51 <Sgeo> Dear Visual Studio C# Express installer: I _just told you_ I don't want to install SQL Server Express
21:27:31 <madbrain> I wonder if tetris is turing equivalent
21:31:17 <Sgeo> That reminds me, I want to investigate Small Worlds to see if the player-created "missions" are turing-complete
21:36:05 <lament> to see the world in a grain of sand!
21:36:10 <lament> and heaven in a wild flower!
21:36:16 <lament> hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
21:36:21 <lament> and eternity in an hour!
21:36:28 <uorygl> madbrain: well, not without infinite storage.
21:36:53 <uorygl> There are two obvious ways to have infinite storage: an infinitely tall board, and an infinitely wide board.
21:37:13 <uorygl> An infinitely tall board would probably function as a single stack, and therefore be insufficient, but I'm not sure.
21:37:46 <uorygl> On an infinitely wide board, the mechanic would have to be modified somehow, as you can't actually complete a row.
21:37:51 <madbrain> uorygl: well, if you had a pattern on notes on the left side, could you do computation with that?
21:38:07 <uorygl> If you had a what?
21:38:14 <madbrain> notches
21:38:32 <madbrain> like, left most colum is filled, then the one next to that has a bit pattern
21:38:54 <uorygl> Hmm.
21:39:20 <uorygl> A major question is what it means for Tetris to compute.
21:39:48 <madbrain> well, the input could be a list of blocks
21:39:59 <madbrain> It would probably have to be non-deterministic
21:40:27 <madbrain> ie if your program is well formatted, only one input will not lead to an infinitely growing stack
21:40:38 <uorygl> Perhaps have some "thing" that's solvable if and only if a certain Turing machine halts, plus an algorithm for solving it if it is solvable.
21:41:05 <Sgeo> Hello world!. Sgeo sold his soul and sucked Microsoft's c*** just for ACT01 and
21:41:05 <Sgeo> Second Life
21:42:07 <madbrain> but then the computation becomes how to win, not the playing itself
21:49:27 <uorygl> Well, all you said was "Tetris".
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23:10:21 <AnMaster> <fizzie> DreamSpark is for pretty much any student, though; msdnaa is restricted to participating institutions. <-- I guess MSDNAA has more stuff?
23:10:39 <fizzie> Yes, I think so.
23:10:48 <fizzie> And more expensive stuff, too.
23:12:15 <fizzie> Incidentally, I did my first-ever emergency call a moment ago. There was a fire alarm that kept beeping, but I couldn't pinpoint-localize the source; couldn't figure out anything else than to call the emergency services. They dispatched a fire truck and a full set of firemen to handle the situation; not that they were having much more luck in locating the source of the beeping at first.
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23:13:57 <fizzie> Turns out the people living directly upstairs from us had put a fire alarm on their balcony, for some really unfathomable reason. I don't know why it was beeping, but I guess it might have something to do with the -20 degree weather out there. Anyway, since it was on the balcony, it was pretty audible outside (and somewhat near the door to our balcony, which is directly below), but cleverly you could barely distinguish it at the apartment doors, so it wasn't
23:13:57 <fizzie> so easy to figure out which one it was.
23:14:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, dreamspark won't have winxp pro x64 or such?
23:14:19 <fizzie> (There was no-one home, either, so they had to wait a while for the service company guy to come open the door.)
23:14:39 <uorygl> A smoke alarm?
23:15:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, crazy
23:15:28 <AnMaster> didn't I post a listing of all MSDNAA software some time ago?
23:15:56 <AnMaster> everything from MSDOS 6.1 to windows 20xx server beta something
23:16:04 <AnMaster> and visual studio and what not
23:16:07 <fizzie> Possibly, though I don't remember; anyway, DreamSpark has just Windows Server 2003 and 2008 on the OS side.
23:16:09 <AnMaster> not MS office though, not that I need it
23:16:30 <fizzie> And Visual Studio 2005/2008 Pro and "2010 Ultimate", whatever that is.
23:16:45 <fizzie> (That one's the beta.)
23:16:46 <AnMaster> why does the msdnaa bookmark in firefox has the wikipedia logo
23:16:51 <AnMaster> it isn't a wikipedia article about it
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23:17:02 <AnMaster> nor does the wikipedia logo show up on the actual msdnaa page
23:17:06 <AnMaster> it is just the bookmark
23:17:12 <fizzie> The DreamSpark theme has changed a bit; it was equally psychedelic earlier, but more green.
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23:17:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you have MSDNAA though?
23:18:16 <AnMaster> whatever it is, it isn't psychedelic
23:18:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, look at http://msdn62.e-academy.com/elms/Storefront/Home.aspx?campus=orebro_appsci
23:19:02 <AnMaster> logged in pages look much the same
23:19:17 <fizzie> Yes. Well, "had". I'm not sure what the status is with us graduate students. Usually we don't have much on the benefits side.
23:19:22 <AnMaster> ah
23:19:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, how strange
23:19:26 <fizzie> I've seen and used the MSDNAA pages, anyway.
23:19:33 <fizzie> They were pretty utilitarian, yes.
23:19:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, looked same for you?
23:20:35 <fizzie> Close enough. Very official, very boring.
23:21:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, and here is the software list (yay view source): http://pastebin.ca/1735570
23:24:18 <AnMaster> I wonder what "x86 and x64 WoW" means
23:24:27 <AnMaster> does it mean the software isn't 64-bit?
23:26:39 <fizzie> Most likely, since WoW64 is that "run 32-bit stuff on x64 windows" thing.
23:29:59 <AnMaster> ah
23:30:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, seems visual studio is all 32-bit
23:30:28 <AnMaster> even 2010
23:34:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, shocking that there is no box shot for http://omploader.org/vMzU2YQ
23:34:49 <AnMaster> isn't it?
23:35:15 <AnMaster> also it just reminded me of how slow dialup is, that box near the bottom
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23:39:55 * AnMaster prods fizzie
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23:47:00 <fizzie> Consider me prodded. (I'm almost asleep here.)
23:49:08 <fizzie> 56K dialup is still on the fast-ish side; during the BBS era, I used to have a 2400 bps modem; there was a rule of thumb that it took a bit over an hour to move a megabyte over zmodem.
23:51:33 <fizzie> The BBS of the local computing rag (that is, magazine) allocated only 60 minutes of time per day; fortunately there was a "time bank" where you could deposit up to... I think up to four hours of extra time. So you could download a floppy-sized file easily, by first putting 50 minutes of one day's time in the bank, then withdrawing it the next day; the 1h50min you got that way was just about enough.
23:51:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, hah
23:51:58 <fizzie> (Okay, because zmodem could continue interrupted transfers, it wasn't quite that bad.)
23:52:05 <AnMaster> :P
23:52:45 <fizzie> The transfer speeds were a bit less with smodem which everyone used, because smodem was able to multiplex the IRC-like BBS chat channel with the file transfer; you could chat with people while the file transfers were going on.
23:54:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, mhm
23:55:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, so people used it rather than zmodem?
23:55:39 <fizzie> At least people who used to hang around the chat channel.
23:55:57 <fizzie> Besides, smodem was a Finnish invention.
23:58:14 <fizzie> "Smodem is a bidirectional protocol for file transfer used between modems, developed by a Finnish company Arisoft. It was mainly used in BBS systems, because it could transfer files in both directions at the same time, and allowed users to chat with each other with AriSoft's GroupChat software. Other popular bidirectional protocols, such as BiModem, HS/Link and HydraCom, also offered a chat option with the operator but not with system's other users."
23:58:36 <uorygl> You know, I can think of one think I would use a floppy disk for.
23:58:49 <augur> uorygl: :D
23:58:57 <fizzie> (Sleep now, nights.)
23:59:03 <uorygl> Of all the player pianos I remember seeing, all of them took floppy disks.
23:59:19 <augur> my player pianos take rolls of paper.
23:59:22 <augur> as do my computers.
23:59:37 <uorygl> Your player pianos are obsolete.
23:59:44 <augur> thats the point! :D
23:59:54 <uorygl> My player pianos are not obsolete!
00:00:04 <uorygl> I mean, they take floppy disks. But apart from that, they are not obsolete!
00:00:12 <augur> sounds like obsolescence to me!
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00:01:20 <uorygl> I guess one of those player pianos was actually an electronic piano.
00:02:04 <augur> ive been tempted on numerous occasions to build an electromechanical computer
00:02:07 <uorygl> Which is pretty much the same thing as a keyboard, except it's actually fashioned to look like a piano and doesn't have as many features.
00:02:25 <AnMaster> uorygl, my piano takes an usb cable
00:02:28 <uorygl> Ah yes, electromechanical computers. Have you ever designed one?
00:02:34 <augur> anmaster: "an usb cable"?
00:02:35 <augur> :|
00:02:39 <AnMaster> augur, yes?
00:02:43 <madbrain> midi usb?
00:02:45 <AnMaster> augur, it's called MIDI over usb
00:02:45 <AnMaster> yes
00:02:48 <augur> AnMaster: its "a usb cable"
00:02:51 <AnMaster> augur, why
00:02:54 <uorygl> AnMaster: is it a player piano, an electronic piano, or a keyboard? :-D
00:02:58 <augur> because it doesnt start with a vowel.
00:03:05 <AnMaster> augur, you pronounce it "U S B"
00:03:07 <AnMaster> not "usb"
00:03:10 <augur> you-ess-bee
00:03:18 <AnMaster> augur, yes indeed
00:03:20 <augur> the name for the letter "u" does not start with a vowel.
00:03:27 <AnMaster> augur, what about pronouncing it "usb" though
00:03:33 <AnMaster> then "an" would be correct
00:03:38 <augur> yes.
00:04:01 <AnMaster> augur, well then I pronounce it that way ;P
00:04:05 <augur> uorygl: partially. my idea was to try and imagine what a computer wouldve looked like if you took a morse-code like device and extended that model
00:04:21 <uorygl> My ideas have involved creating a computer using only relays.
00:04:22 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:04:27 * uorygl blinks.
00:04:33 -!- augur has joined.
00:04:36 <uorygl> My ideas have involved creating a computer using only relays.
00:04:44 <augur> yeah
00:04:48 <AnMaster> uorygl, also, no one uses a player piano these days
00:04:50 <augur> it always seemed odd to me that we didnt have electromechanical computers 150 years ago given that we had morse code back then
00:04:51 <AnMaster> long live midi
00:04:59 <AnMaster> and hardware midi to be specific
00:05:01 <uorygl> AnMaster: I have heard of MIDI player pianos.
00:05:03 <augur> AnMaster: noone uses midi these days. long live mp3.
00:05:32 <uorygl> MP3 is inferior to MIDI when it comes to things MP3 is incapable of doing and MIDI is capable of doing.
00:05:38 <AnMaster> augur, no one uses mp3, Long live flac
00:05:44 <augur> :P
00:05:46 <AnMaster> and what uorygl said
00:05:53 <augur> the converse is true too ofcourse.
00:06:04 <augur> i think we should build an electromechanical computer.
00:06:05 <uorygl> I agree that we ought to have had electromechanical computers since 1835.
00:06:25 <AnMaster> oh?
00:06:26 <augur> you know that the morse code machines were originally like type writers
00:06:27 <augur> ?
00:06:32 <madbrain> midi is the shit you use to make mp3
00:06:34 <uorygl> I think I had some idea.
00:06:39 <AnMaster> madbrain, no
00:06:40 <augur> but some douchebag convinced morse to use a push-level machine instead
00:06:42 <AnMaster> not quite
00:07:00 <uorygl> I think we should build an electromechanical router. Then we could make an Internet using only 19th century technology.
00:07:01 <augur> were it not for that, we'd probably have had the internet in 1850.
00:07:04 <lament> midi is a transport protocol
00:07:14 <lament> like IP, right?
00:07:21 <augur> think of it, an electromechanical type writer that could connect to a tape store remotely
00:07:29 <madbrain> unless you do music with straight musicians or something
00:07:31 <AnMaster> lament, and a file format
00:07:42 <lament> i only do music with gay musicians
00:07:51 <AnMaster> ?
00:07:55 <augur> the tape would store bits directly rather than as letters so it'd just feed right into the line
00:08:16 <uorygl> So, augur, let's figure out an error correction scheme that can be implemented using relays.
00:08:29 <madbrain> ECC?
00:08:32 <augur> well you wouldnt have error correction initially, right
00:08:35 <augur> you'd just have hard connections
00:08:49 <AnMaster> augur, reed Solomon?
00:08:52 <augur> and it wouldnt matter much either, because the signals are pretty strong, comparatively speaking
00:08:53 <AnMaster> Reed*
00:08:59 <uorygl> Isn't error correction pretty necessary?
00:09:00 <augur> AnMaster: whats that
00:09:03 <AnMaster> augur, iirc
00:09:14 <AnMaster> augur, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed–Solomon_error_correction
00:09:16 <augur> uorygl: only when youre signals are weak
00:09:16 <madbrain> uorygl: depends on the noise levels and such
00:09:19 <AnMaster> augur, used on CDs and such
00:09:31 <uorygl> Well, the signals are going to get corrupted every time you do something to them.
00:09:47 <augur> sure but an electromechanical computer is going to emply pretty strong signals anyway
00:09:48 <AnMaster> augur, works by oversampling a polynomial, thus being able to reconstruct the missing data points if some are gone
00:09:55 <augur> so the signal degredation isnt going to be significant
00:10:02 <uorygl> If a signal goes 1,000 miles and passes through 10 routers, I think there's going to be quite a bit of signal degradation.
00:10:16 <augur> maybe maybe not, uorygle
00:10:22 <madbrain> ah, but that's transmission, not computation
00:10:26 <uorygl> Even worse if a signal is circulated for an indefinite length of time.
00:10:35 <uorygl> Besides, error correction is easy to implement, is it not?
00:10:47 -!- osaunders has joined.
00:11:14 <augur> i mean, they had routers back then for these signals
00:11:23 <augur> they already had transatlantic telegraphs
00:11:29 <uorygl> True.
00:11:31 <augur> by like 1850 or 1880 or whatever
00:11:37 <augur> so i dont think thats an issue
00:12:45 <augur> brb pizza :D
00:14:20 <uorygl> Okay, so we don't need error correction.
00:15:05 <uorygl> So, what sort of signals do we want to support? Packet switching? Circuit switching with in-band signaling?
00:15:19 <uorygl> How would packets be delimited? Time? Number of bits?
00:15:54 <AnMaster> in band is bad
00:16:08 * AnMaster whistles
00:16:13 <uorygl> :-)
00:16:39 <uorygl> In-band is good! It means you only need one band.
00:16:50 <uorygl> The phone guys came up with filters that prevented the whistling stuff, no?
00:17:18 <AnMaster> uorygl, so some freqs were forbidden? Would break said data
00:17:25 <AnMaster> you need to *escape* it instead then
00:17:39 <uorygl> Now, let me read a bit about how relays work.
00:18:01 <AnMaster> uorygl, well if you were going to build a computer with that you could do it high level anyway
00:24:20 <uorygl> It looks like in an ordinary relay, the switch is thrown by passing current in either direction.
00:24:26 <augur> o hai
00:25:17 <uorygl> So you could say that a packet ends whenever the voltage drops below the threshold.
00:25:25 * AnMaster locates a boot cd with gparted
00:26:16 <uorygl> Or you could use a latching relay, and say that the packet ends whenever the voltage becomes negative; then the data can include both positive and zero voltages.
00:26:20 <augur> uorygle, lets not try to rebuild TCP/IP on aethernet just yet
00:26:27 <augur> TEEHEE AETHERNET 8D
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00:26:49 <uorygl> Well, the thing about routers is that they route data. I'm just pondering how that data could be delimited.
00:27:19 <augur> special bit patterns, obviously
00:27:37 <uorygl> That won't do if you're transmitting analog data.
00:27:53 <augur> special tone patterns, obviously
00:28:10 <uorygl> That requires something other than relays. :-P
00:28:26 <augur> analog data would in general!
00:28:28 <AnMaster> uorygl, what about a fixed packet size?
00:28:48 <AnMaster> x milliseconds before switching
00:29:04 <uorygl> I don't know if that's a good idea.
00:29:13 <augur> i think we should get our system up and running locally first before trying to get a transatlantic system up
00:29:22 <uorygl> I think the packet overhead could potentially be several seconds.
00:29:39 <AnMaster> uorygl, also what about bouncing with relays
00:29:48 <AnMaster> wouldn't it be a rather severe issue
00:29:57 <uorygl> We can compensate for bouncing by using error correction. >.>
00:30:07 <AnMaster> uorygl, or Hg relays
00:30:09 <AnMaster> read about that
00:30:13 <AnMaster> no bouncing in them
00:30:17 <AnMaster> of course they are toxic
00:30:24 <AnMaster> which is a rather large downside
00:30:30 <augur> guys we should really build one of these
00:30:36 <augur> we could make it all steampunkish
00:30:45 <augur> and show it off on one of the steampunk blogs
00:30:47 <AnMaster> augur, it will eat more power than my old p4, and it will also be slower
00:30:50 <uorygl> Let's each build our own and then figure out how to connect them. :-P
00:30:55 <augur> anmaster: EXACTLY! :D
00:30:58 <augur> itll be AWESOME
00:31:06 <AnMaster> congrats, you get promoted to Intel Chief Engineer some years ago
00:31:16 <augur> HOORAY
00:31:30 <AnMaster> augur, then you were fired when they decided to produce core 2
00:31:49 <augur> :
00:31:51 <augur> :(
00:31:52 <AnMaster> :?
00:31:54 <AnMaster> ah
00:32:05 <AnMaster> btw, going to go offline with this connection for a while
00:32:07 <AnMaster> parted time
00:32:18 <augur> parted time?
00:32:26 <AnMaster> augur, yeah parted
00:32:30 <augur> what
00:32:34 <AnMaster> augur, try it's man page
00:32:40 <AnMaster> man parted
00:32:44 <AnMaster> you type that in your shell
00:32:50 <augur> i'd part a man
00:32:53 <augur> IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN
00:32:54 <augur> ;D
00:32:58 <AnMaster> no I don't
00:33:02 <augur> oh
00:33:03 <augur> ok
00:33:07 <uorygl> Hmm. Packet switching and circuit switching aren't really that different when packets can go on for long periods of time.
00:33:19 <AnMaster> GNU Parted - a partition manipulation program
00:33:20 <AnMaster> augur,
00:33:22 <AnMaster> was that so hard
00:33:27 <AnMaster> read your damn man pages
00:33:30 <augur> AnMaster: i didnt care :D
00:33:35 <augur> uorygl, have you seen those little calculators
00:33:38 * coppro goes to play more engineer of the people
00:33:40 <augur> theyre like little black drums with a crank?
00:33:50 <uorygl> Now I'm thinking that everything should be digital and packet-switched, and then we can just use special bit patterns.
00:33:54 <uorygl> I don't think I have seen those.
00:34:40 <augur> http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/curta_i.html
00:35:11 <uorygl> What do you call that code where every 0 is encoded as 01 and every 1 is encoded as 10?
00:35:20 <augur> dunno
00:35:29 <augur> weirdonary?
00:36:38 <uorygl> There's a name for it.
00:40:30 <uorygl> Aha. The Manchester code.
00:42:48 <Sgeo> What's the poin.. oh, error detection
00:42:49 <augur> can we not use crazy coding schemes for this? :|
00:43:02 <coppro> I wonder what a binary version of the L&S sequence would look like
00:43:09 <Sgeo> L&S?
00:43:14 <coppro> look and say
00:43:15 <uorygl> I guess crazy coding schemes aren't strictly necessary.
00:43:37 <coppro> 1, 11, 101, 111011, 11110101, 100110111011
00:43:37 <uorygl> We could just transmit at a constant rate.
00:44:07 <uorygl> coppro: that's kind of an irreversible sequence.
00:44:20 <coppro> it is
00:44:31 <coppro> I wonder at which base it becomes reversible
00:44:38 <uorygl> Try this: 1, 011, 010101, 010011010011010011, . . .
00:44:41 <coppro> actually, no I don't
00:44:45 <coppro> that's easy
00:46:05 <uorygl> I guess the thing about not using any code is that timing errors can happen.
00:46:20 <uorygl> Suppose they transmit 010101010101010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001010101010101010.
00:46:33 <uorygl> You're going to have to time all those zeros in the middle in order to know how many there are.
00:46:48 <Ilari> 0 -> 01, 1 -> 10... NRZ?
00:46:51 <uorygl> Then again, we probably could use an error correction scheme wherein that can't happen.
00:47:00 <uorygl> Ilari: congratulations, you've invented the Manchester code.
00:47:37 <oerjan> now if you iterate it, you can invent the thue-morse sequence too :)
00:48:13 <Ilari> Well, the point of coding that mangles symbols is usually to avoid long runs of same symbol, as that tends to mess up timing...
00:48:21 <uorygl> Right.
00:49:00 <uorygl> Well, Manchester coding is one way to do things. Using it, I think we can pretty much correct for every sort of error we need to correct for.
00:49:11 <oerjan> i recall someone (ais523?) saying something about using 01 and 10 to ensure there were equal number of 0s as 1s to have no net charge
00:51:03 <oerjan> uorygl: um you cannot correct for an actual switching of neighbor bits :D
00:51:23 <uorygl> Bits don't just spontaneously get switched.
00:51:40 <oerjan> no, but you could have two neighboring errors
00:52:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, hi
00:52:06 <oerjan> AnMaster: hi
00:52:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, in a bit, once this CD is burned, you could say I parted to use parted
00:52:20 <uorygl> One of the routers could also spontaneously explode, causing a very large number of errors. Though that's less likely.
00:52:49 <uorygl> The thing is, Manchester at least has some error correction capability for every likely type of error.
00:53:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, hey it's supposed to be a bad pun
00:53:19 <oerjan> AnMaster: yeah, yeah
00:53:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, you know what parted is?
00:53:32 <Ilari> There are sequences over four symbols that never have any subsequence followed by any permutation (including identity) of that subsequence. Keränen's sequence is one of those (has recursive structure with generator of length 85).
00:53:39 <AnMaster> yay done
00:53:54 <oerjan> i have heard the name, and can guess it's a partition editor
00:53:58 <uorygl> Ilari: I assume that means "immediately followed".
00:54:07 <Ilari> uorygl: Oops, right.
00:54:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed
00:55:05 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net").
00:55:23 <oerjan> Ilari: um subsequences must have at least length 2, i take
00:55:31 <Ilari> Any sequence with recursive structure has to start with "identity" symbol.
00:56:13 <oerjan> oh wait fours symbols duh
00:56:18 <oerjan> *four
00:58:37 <Ilari> Let G be some group. Finite sequence a1 = e, a2, ... an can be expanded into infinite one by a1, a2, .. an, a2 + a1, a2 + a2, ... a2 + an, a3 + a1, ... an + an, a2 + a1 + a1, ...
00:59:04 <coppro> Ilari: Keranen's sequence has "abc" at the start, and "bac" later on... or do I misunderstand?
00:59:15 <Ilari> coppro: Immediately followed
00:59:22 <coppro> oh
00:59:31 <Ilari> (that was mistakenly left out).
00:59:43 <coppro> ok, makes more sense
00:59:43 <anmaster_l> where did ais go
00:59:47 <anmaster_l> hm
00:59:57 <Ilari> There is no sequence over finite such that no subsequence eventually repeats.
01:00:19 <Ilari> *finite alphabet
01:00:28 <coppro> right
01:00:36 <coppro> I realized that about 2 seconds after I said that
01:00:43 <uorygl> Counterexample: "a"
01:00:44 <uorygl> :-P
01:00:57 <Ilari> Also *infinite sequence
01:01:08 <oerjan> uorygl: hah wrong, epsilon is both at start and end
01:01:20 <uorygl> Aww, you're right.
01:03:33 <Ilari> In Z2, using generator 011 would yield 011100100100011011100011011100011011011100100011100100100011011011100100011100100... or something like that.
01:04:14 <uorygl> Here, let me generate an infinite sequence.
01:04:36 <uorygl> ...hmm.
01:05:03 <uorygl> Yeah, I can do that.
01:06:02 <Ilari> Using elliptic-curve-type group with large amount of points could probably make some whacky sequences.
01:06:03 <uorygl> Using Thue, an excellent infinite sequence generator.
01:06:41 <Ilari> And of course there is: Monster group!
01:06:57 <uorygl> Aww, fudge. This Thue interpreter doesn't seem to be working.
01:07:23 <Ilari> Except that monster group isn't abelian, and thus one would need to define order to do the additions in.
01:08:17 <uorygl> Okay, here is an awesome sequence: 11011011101101101110110111011011011101101110110111011011011101101110110110111011011101101101#
01:09:08 <Ilari> Put all generators of monster group as generator of sequence and eventually the infinite sequence resulting would contain all elements of monster group.
01:09:22 <uorygl> That sequence consists of strings of 1s separated by 0s. Those strings have the following lengths: 2, 2, 3, 2, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 2, 1
01:10:08 <uorygl> Ignoring the 1 on the end, that sequence consists of strings of 2s separated by 3s. Those strings have the following lengths: 2, 2, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2
01:10:23 <uorygl> And so on.
01:11:42 <uorygl> Unfortunately, my Thue program simply produces what is effectively an arbitrary finite piece of a random infinite sequence. It cannot generate a continuation of that sequence.
01:11:44 <Ilari> Of course, monster group has 808017424794512875886459904961710757005754368000000000 elements and duplicates probably exist before last element is found. Not to mention that computing group addition for moster group is quite slow.
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01:12:52 <uorygl> At least it can generate sequences of arbitrary length.
01:13:57 <Ilari> Monster group has generator of size 2. And interestingly monster group is isomorphic with subset of 196882x196882 matrices over Z2 with matrix multiplication as addition operator.
01:15:08 <oerjan> isn't every finite group isomorphic to such a subset, really
01:16:05 <oerjan> i suppose the interesting part is that 196882 is rather small
01:16:41 <Ilari> Of course, 38 762 521 924 elements total...
01:17:38 <oerjan> although the full matrix group is probably enormous compared to the monster
01:18:31 <Ilari> Well, the full group of that size would be all matrices of that size over Z2 with determinant 1.
01:18:50 <oerjan> so, unless there is only a tiny minority of determinant 1 elements
01:19:58 <oerjan> hm you can do it by choosing independent vectors
01:20:26 <Ilari> Well, there are already 2^19381162521 upper triangular (and same amount of lower triangular) such determinant 1 matrices.
01:20:28 <oerjan> first vector anything non-zero, so 2^196882-1 elements. that's already anormous
01:20:47 <oerjan> right, so enormous
01:20:53 <oerjan> *e
01:24:02 <Ilari> Hmm... Is Z3 isomorphic to some multiplicative matrix subset over Z2? Its equivalent to question if there is matrix over Z2 (and if there is, what's the smallest one) that has nontrivial cube root of identity matrix.
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01:24:33 <oerjan> every permutation group Sn is trivially embeddable into n x n matrix
01:24:45 <oerjan> *matrices
01:24:47 <soupdragon> trivially ?
01:25:42 <oerjan> a permutation s is mapped to the matrix with M_ij = 1 is s_j = i, 0 otherwise
01:26:26 <oerjan> or is that s_i = j
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01:27:54 <oerjan> well they're even called permutation matrices iirc
01:28:35 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation_matrix
01:28:38 <Ilari> Actually, any permutation cycle of length n can be used to find subset of matrices over Z2 that are isomorphic to Zn.
01:30:36 <oerjan> ah my confusion of whether to do s_i = j or s_j = i seems to have confused other before, because the standard definition is _wrong_ :D
01:30:43 <oerjan> *others
01:32:27 <Ilari> Actually, it seems that for any Zn, there is isomorphic nxn matrix subset over Z2 with multiplication.
01:32:44 <soupdragon> yeah
01:32:58 <soupdragon> every group is a subset of a permutation
01:33:07 <soupdragon> and if you can matrixify permutations then you can matrixify any group
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01:34:56 <oerjan> i think when n is a prime and using permutation matrices, that may be minimal
01:35:23 <oerjan> since p does not divide (p-1)!
01:36:05 <oerjan> may ask if it is still minimal if not using permutations...
01:36:47 <oerjan> (order of S_n is n!, and subgroup orders always divide total group order)
01:41:47 <Ilari> And if isn't minimal, fun question is what is smallest n where it isn't and what would be generator matrices for that?
01:41:52 <oerjan> if it is not a prime power then it is not minimal, because n = n1*n2 with n1, n2 coprime means Zn = Zn1 x Zn2 which can be embedded in S_(n1+n2) by using blocks
01:42:18 <Ilari> That would give n=6...
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01:43:37 <oerjan> i'm not sure S5 is minimal for Z6, though
01:44:01 <Ilari> [[0,1,0,0,0][1,0,0,0,0][0,0,0,0,1][0,0,1,0,0][0,0,0,1,0]]?
01:44:16 <oerjan> S3 is too small, only 6 elements that _don't_ commute
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01:44:32 <oerjan> i meant i was not sure S4 doesn't work
01:45:24 <oerjan> come to think of it there's probably a sequence in that sequence encyclopedia for this :D
01:45:37 <Ilari> If you have program that can calculate that, try calculating 2nd, 3rd and 6th powers of matrix I gave (over Z2)...
01:46:57 <oerjan> um i can see perfectly well it's using the block method i suggested, no need to use a program
01:51:11 <Ilari> Current methods would give 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 7, 8, 9, 7, 11, 7, 13, 9, 8, 16, ...
01:52:09 <oerjan> hm wait of course the generator must be a _single_ permutation...
01:52:10 <Ilari> Oops, that should be 11, 8, 13...
01:52:41 <oerjan> hm that means this actually is optimal, i think
01:53:21 <oerjan> dividing that permutation into cycles is the same as dividing the matrix into blocks, and the resulting order is lcm of cycle length
01:53:35 <oerjan> so *lengths
01:53:59 <Ilari> Oops, 11, 7, 13...
01:54:06 <oerjan> so indeed dividing n into prime powers and adding them is the best you can do
01:55:05 <Ilari> "a(n) is the minimal number m such that the symmetric group S_m has an element of order n - Ahmed Fares (ahmedfares(AT)my-deja.com), Jun 26 2001".
01:58:03 <Ilari> And indeed element of order n means subset is isomorphic to Zn.
01:58:10 <oerjan> naturally
02:00:07 <Ilari> Hmm... I guess I should write my own raytracer to properly trace this fractal pattern. Pov-Ray can't do it properly because of 255 reflections limit.
02:00:34 <coppro> YafRay?
02:01:55 <Ilari> Nah. Fairly simple to write raytracer that can just deal with it.
02:02:16 <soupdragon> can you write a 'ray tracer' based on quantum physics?
02:05:04 <soupdragon> so that it renders refraction and stuff
02:05:50 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_with_one_element O_O
02:11:30 <Sgeo> When I walked around at school, I couldn't help thinking that the tiles on some of the walls looked ray-traced
02:12:55 <Sgeo> Why can't the additive identity and the multiplicitive identity be the same?
02:13:07 <soupdragon> one of the axioms is 0 <> 1
02:13:17 <Sgeo> Oh
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02:50:33 <uorygl> It it particularly useful to say that there is no field with one element?
02:55:52 <oerjan> "For technical reasons, the additive identity and the multiplicative identity are required to be distinct."
02:56:10 * oerjan looks for actual reasons...
03:00:40 <Sgeo> Once ReactOS is released and fully stable, would there be any real advantage to using it? I mean, it will be prone to Windows viruses, presumably
03:01:28 <Sgeo> Although it would be nice that in 10 years after release, if ReactOS is still alive, it would still be considered modern, without having to pay money, unlike with Windows
03:02:31 * oerjan didn't really find any
03:02:54 <uorygl> Well, ReactOS will be free. We could extend it in ways that we can't extend Windows.
03:03:53 <Sgeo> oerjan, because then it's not what the mathematical community decided is a "field"?
03:04:49 <oerjan> that is _not_ an improvement to "for technical reasons"
03:07:08 <soupdragon> it's probably something to do with homomorphism
03:08:54 <oerjan> well it would be a terminal object... while other fields only have homomorphisms at all if their characteristics match. or wait, are there homomorphisms from Q to F_n?
03:09:28 <oerjan> *if at minimum their characteristics match
03:09:36 <soupdragon> maybe it's for divide by zero
03:10:00 <oerjan> um wait no, obviously not
03:10:11 <oerjan> the characteristics must match
03:10:30 <soupdragon> I don't know the characteristic ;/
03:10:53 <oerjan> smallest integer n with n*1 equal to 0, or 0 otherwise
03:11:03 <soupdragon> oh right
03:11:05 <oerjan> *positive integer
03:11:19 <soupdragon> how is n*1 ever not n :S
03:11:57 <oerjan> well i just wanted to point out that n is not a field element
03:12:05 <soupdragon> should it be n+1?
03:12:19 <oerjan> n*1 = sum of n 1's
03:12:27 <soupdragon> oh!!!
03:12:32 <soupdragon> so n is a natural number
03:12:34 <oerjan> it's "intuitively obvious"
03:12:54 <soupdragon> it's not an element of the field
03:13:05 <oerjan> and in characteristic 0, there is no harm in identifying them, since the rationals are always embedded
03:15:58 <oerjan> n is always a prime or 0, btw
03:17:58 <oerjan> and for each characteristic n, there is a unique prime field, those are Z_n and the rationals
03:18:33 <oerjan> and the prime field would be an initial object in that subcategory, since it embeds uniquely in every other
03:19:10 <oerjan> the field of size 1 ruins all that
03:19:45 <oerjan> it would be of characteristic 1, i guess, but still have a homomorphism to it from everything else
03:21:17 <soupdragon> myth busted!
04:13:49 <uorygl> Hey, now. I'm not following all that well, but it seems like you have certain objects associated with p^n where p is prime, and letting n be 0 ruins stuff because p^0 is a factor of everything.
04:19:36 <oerjan> on the other hand i think that may actually fit _because_ you always have a homomorphism to the 1 element field
04:20:18 <oerjan> and you may in general have homomorphisms from F_p^n to F_p_m when n divides m, or something like that (let me check)
04:20:24 <oerjan> *F_p^m
04:21:31 <oerjan> well you would _need_ n dividing m, at least, since then F_p^m is a vector space over F_p^n
04:22:00 <oerjan> if of dimension d, then p^m = p^(nd) => m = nd
04:27:29 * oerjan doesn't find an easy reference
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04:55:18 <zzo38> What should I name this class: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/User:Zzo38/untitled_class_1_(3.5e_Class)
04:57:00 <oerjan> ceci_n_est_pas_un_classe
04:57:35 <soupdragon> heh
04:58:26 <oerjan> sorry, *_une_
04:59:22 <zzo38> I like this joke but don't want to call it that.
04:59:43 <oerjan> i take it the improbability drive is the important aspect
05:00:19 <zzo38> It is one of the important aspects, but probably not the most important one
05:00:36 <uorygl> "dand"?
05:00:57 <zzo38> That's the domain name, I didn't write it
05:00:58 <coppro> D&D
05:01:10 <zzo38> "it" is the domain name.
05:01:38 <uorygl> I guess it's better than "dandd".
05:01:38 <oerjan> well rephrase that: the name "improbability drive" was the only part i got any gist from
05:01:47 <uorygl> But is it better than "dnd"?
05:02:16 <zzo38> OK. But can you understand how all the class features works, however?
05:07:05 <oerjan> there is something called complex abilities. however i do not know d&d sufficiently well to understand how this is any different from what any spellcasting/psionics character can usually do
05:07:53 <coppro> it's okay, oerjan
05:07:59 <coppro> D&D 3.5 is not meant to be understood
05:08:03 <oerjan> heh
05:08:32 <oerjan> well let me leave it to the experts then
05:11:20 <zzo38> The "Complex Abilities" collectively refers to the spells, powers, and potentially others.
05:12:30 <coppro> maneuvers?
05:13:45 <zzo38> "Complex Abilities" does refer to maneuvers, but whether or not I add that to this class is different
05:17:37 <coppro> <3 LoZ music
05:23:16 <zzo38> One of the types of complex abilities that I might add, though, is warlock invocations, if I can figure out the cost that should be applied to them
05:37:40 <coppro> just add them all
05:41:33 <zzo38> But what C.A.P cost? I want it to be not too low, and not zero like a actual warlock's invocations
05:41:49 <zzo38> And anyways, what should I name this class
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06:02:41 <coppro> zzo38: no, add all complex abilities
06:02:55 <coppro> invocations, spells, powers, maneuvers, infusions, and anything else you can think of
06:03:06 <coppro> except you randomly get certain kinds
06:03:22 <coppro> so you never have access to all of them
06:04:23 <coppro> hmm... I want a blank white cards bot
06:04:34 <zzo38> I don't think I will put the "randomly get certain kinds" but I could figure it out if (and only if) I can assign reasonable C.A.P costs to each of them, of course, you have a limited number of complex abilities known and a limited number of C.A.P/day so you can't possibly use all of them in one day
06:06:07 <zzo38> I don't know if I really want to add all of them though, if some kinds are more powerful it might require a feat to provide access to them
06:06:13 <coppro> I was kidding
06:06:28 <coppro> then again, I don't do much else with 3.5
06:06:35 <coppro> except add templates to random creatures
06:07:03 * coppro still contemplates purchasing GR's book that's 100% templates, just for the lulz
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06:09:10 <zzo38> OK
06:19:08 <coppro> zzo38: ever played 1000 blank white cards?
06:19:17 <zzo38> No, I never have done so
06:19:29 <zzo38> But I have seen descriptions and rules
06:24:19 <bsmntbombgrrl> sounds retarded
06:25:09 <coppro> it's awesome
06:26:34 <soupdragon> hi!!!
06:27:00 <coppro> a tad late, but otherwise well played
06:36:04 <Sgeo> "Brad Cox and Tom Love create Objective-C, announcing "this language has all the memory safety of C combined with all the blazing speed of Smalltalk." Modern historians suspect the two were dyslexic."
06:36:17 <Sgeo> I may have pasted that in here verbatim before
06:38:10 <coppro> I haven't seen it before
06:38:13 <coppro> and I lold
06:38:44 <Sgeo> coppro, http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html
06:39:08 <zzo38> Well, what I know, is, my ideas for improvement of C is not Objective C or C++, but is differently
06:39:11 <zzo38> Like,
06:39:54 <zzo38> I would have a few new preprocessor directives is one thing: #xmacro #calc #string
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06:41:38 <coppro> Sgeo: I like the line about Java and lambdas
06:41:41 <coppro> xmacro?
06:41:48 <zzo38> #local #endlocal
06:42:05 <coppro> actually, I want explanations of all of those
06:42:31 <zzo38> And also, when using #include to be able to specify after the filename any number of names, which will be defined as blank macros while including the file and reverted afterward.
06:42:52 <zzo38> Example: #include <extra.h> EXTRA_DOS_PROGRAM EXTRA_1
06:43:03 <coppro> zzo38: write those in a patch to the GNU preprocessor, propose to the C++ committee and the C committee, in that order
06:43:07 <coppro> or to clang's
06:43:11 <coppro> which will be easier
06:43:19 <coppro> and I still want to know what your 5 macros do
06:43:51 <zzo38> #xmacro creates a macro that does an include. Example: #xmacro Xmacro1(_1,_2) "extra.h" __Xmacro1
06:44:43 <zzo38> #calc does like #define but calculates all values when the #calc line is evaluated, instead of afterward. Example: #calc FooBar FooBar+1
06:45:35 <coppro> I'm confused about xmacro...
06:45:44 <zzo38> #string acts like #calc but does an unstringize of the result
06:45:46 <coppro> calc is sort of not really needed
06:46:08 <coppro> okay, that I could see as more useful
06:46:09 <zzo38> Example of #string: #string CHAR(x) "'" #x "'"
06:46:20 <coppro> ah
06:46:23 <coppro> yeah
06:46:25 <coppro> I don
06:46:52 <coppro> *I don't understand what Xmacro adds, and I really don't understand what #calc adds
06:47:07 <zzo38> Still? I thought I explained it.
06:47:17 <coppro> I know how they work
06:47:22 <coppro> I don't know what they add
06:48:00 <zzo38> With the example of #xmacro given: When Xmacro(a,b) is found, it works like #define _1 a #define _2 b #define __Xmacro1 #include "extra.h" and then it can revert the _1 _2 __Xmacro1 because those are local to the macro
06:49:18 <coppro> I think I get it
06:49:28 <coppro> why not just use #include
06:49:42 <coppro> why does it need to be a macro?
06:49:50 <coppro> also, a macro expanding to a directive is truly horrible
06:49:55 <coppro> and should never be allowed to happen
06:51:02 <coppro> anyone know where I can find some news about hormones? Ideally on a science- or medicine-oriented site
06:51:03 <coppro> stupid homework
06:51:12 <coppro> needs to be sort of recent
06:54:02 <Sgeo> Does anyone actually use Eiffel?
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06:54:27 <coppro> Sgeo: not as far as I know, which is a shame
06:55:23 <Sgeo> Hold on, isn't there overloaded .NET stuff? And isn't there a .NET version of Eiffel? And doesn't Eiffel not allow overloading?
06:57:47 <coppro> Most .NET languages do not support all of its capabilities
06:58:21 <coppro> and adding overloading to Eiffel doesn't seem too difficult, particularly when you have additional limitations inherited from .NET
07:06:02 <Sgeo> Are there a lot of jobs for C# programmers?
07:06:08 <coppro> yes
07:06:14 <coppro> unfortunately
07:06:18 <Sgeo> So, a good language to learn, then
07:06:19 <Sgeo> ?
07:06:25 <coppro> if you're in it for employment, yes
07:07:21 * coppro needs a haircut
07:07:30 <Sgeo> What's wrong with it, other than the .NET legal issues and the whole type thing
07:13:22 <zzo38> And also #trap #mark #unmark
07:15:45 <zzo38> #trap is used to trap compiler errors. If it is trapped, it will stop, and preprocess again with a different macro set or something, and then recompile. If ? is used it traps within the marked area. Example: #trap error ?section1 define section1_error
07:16:17 <zzo38> You have to indicate the types of errors or other stuff too, possibly with parameters in parentheses, if you put "error" it means any error
07:18:15 <coppro> that scares me
07:19:17 <zzo38> Is it really scary?
07:27:51 <Sgeo> When will MS come up with ORG?
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07:28:13 <zzo38> I don't know, maybe never
07:28:27 <Sgeo> It's just that with "COM", then ".NET"
07:28:36 <Sgeo> </explaining-the-joke>
07:28:40 <zzo38> I know
07:28:58 <zzo38> I know why you asked
07:29:06 <Sgeo> ok, sorry
07:29:49 <zzo38> Although it can show time of received messages, it won't currently show the time of sent messages, therefore I ought to fix that
07:30:52 <zzo38> Since the message is already typed, it has to show the time *after* the sent message, instead of *before*, even though it is slightly inconvenient
07:34:47 <zzo38> Sometimes I try to play pinball and watch the IRC both at the same time.
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07:45:50 <Sgeo> I must admit, the whole explicit typing thing makes autocomplete actually work, so C# has that going for it
07:46:32 <coppro> clang will bring awesome autocomplete to C++
07:46:38 <coppro> (not kidding here)
07:46:41 <Sgeo> As opposed to PythonWin's "Oh, I see you typed .x sometime in the past, and you just typed a .. Do you want me to put .x?"
07:46:48 <coppro> haha
07:46:58 <coppro> kate's default code complete is like that :(
07:53:25 <Sgeo> Good night
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08:26:55 <ehirdiphone> Relay only computer has been done.
08:27:14 <ehirdiphone> Bah, no interesting people are here right now.
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08:27:34 <soupdragon> :(
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09:27:38 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: sorry! I didn't notice you.
09:28:22 <soupdragon> haha
09:28:46 <ehirdiphone> Well, you weren't talking or anything.
09:29:48 <soupdragon> I might read Three Worlds Collide today
09:44:48 <ehirdiphone> c
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10:28:02 <soupdragon> I have done two euler problems in IRP!!
10:30:23 <lament> nice!
10:30:33 <lament> which ones?
10:30:47 <lament> how many lines did your programs have?
10:30:54 <soupdragon> one line each
10:31:23 <soupdragon> although there's usually a few extra lines buttering them up
10:31:45 <soupdragon> since if you just come out with the algoorithm they tell you to piss off :(
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10:37:22 <ehirdiphone> FISSION
10:41:39 <ehirdiphone> So if fuse:fusion, I guess fiss:fission.
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10:42:41 <soupdragon> my lexicon thinks fission is a root morpheme
10:42:47 <soupdragon> so there is no 'fiss'
10:43:13 <ehirdiphone> poo on your lexicon
10:43:17 <soupdragon> :(
10:44:19 <ehirdiphone> fuse :: a -> b -> (a,b)
10:44:32 <soupdragon> PC-KIMMO>generate fuse+ion
10:44:32 <soupdragon> fusion
10:44:32 <soupdragon> PC-KIMMO>generate fish+ion
10:44:32 <soupdragon> fishion
10:45:39 <ehirdiphone> fiss :: (-> :: a -> b -> c) => (a,b) -> c
10:45:45 <ehirdiphone> (continuation type syntax obvs)
10:46:00 <soupdragon> not to me :/
10:46:27 <ehirdiphone> :P
10:47:11 <ehirdiphone> fiss (a,b) ->k = k a b
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10:48:27 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: generate fiss+ion
10:48:35 <soupdragon> fission
10:48:48 <soupdragon> it's just that fiss isn't a word
10:49:35 <ehirdiphone> should be
10:49:46 <soupdragon> PC-KIMMO>RECOGNIZE fiss
10:49:46 <soupdragon> *** NONE ***
10:50:29 <ehirdiphone> DEFINE fiss the act of fission
10:50:47 <ehirdiphone> brb
10:50:55 <soupdragon> why not make it fizz
10:51:01 <soupdragon> fizz+ion = fission
10:51:12 <soupdragon> (that's not actually true... YET)
10:56:33 <ehirdiphone> It would be cool if you could depend on the result of the continuation
10:57:14 <ehirdiphone> foo = True:$
10:57:20 <ehirdiphone> False:foo
10:57:25 <ehirdiphone> ->
10:57:53 <ehirdiphone> True:False:True:False:...
10:57:54 <ehirdiphone> erm
10:58:07 <ehirdiphone> False:True:False:True:False:...
10:58:11 <ehirdiphone> that is
11:01:08 <ehirdiphone> foo | $ > 1 = 1
11:01:27 <ehirdiphone> | $ < 1 = 0
11:01:59 <ehirdiphone> foo + 1 -- always 1
11:02:07 <ehirdiphone> foo - 1 -- always 0
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11:03:29 <ehirdiphone> (if foo is 1 then it's 1+1; since 2>1 foo must be 1. So actually it's 2 in that case)
11:03:35 -!- lament has quit.
11:04:09 <ehirdiphone> (if foo is 0 then it's 0+1; the conditition should be >= 1. So it's 1)
11:05:03 <ehirdiphone> the latter is actually always -1
11:06:43 <ehirdiphone> if foo = 1 then it's 1-1 = 0; foo is only 1 when $ >= 1 so contradiction
11:06:47 <ehirdiphone> therefore it's 0-1 = -1
11:07:21 <ehirdiphone> so foo+1 is ambiguously 1 or 2
11:07:25 <ehirdiphone> and foo-1 is always -1
11:09:15 <ehirdiphone> case foo of 0 -> 1; 1 -> 0 is _|_
11:10:41 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: are there any languages with bigo notation in the types?
11:12:15 <ehirdiphone> that would be cool
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11:28:47 <soupdragon> I don't know of any
11:29:02 <soupdragon> of course there's languages whre everything takes polytime or whatever
11:29:26 <ehirdiphone> yeah but I mean
11:29:55 <ehirdiphone> the type inferrer would actually work out the big os
11:30:30 <ehirdiphone> so you could enforce the time complexity of functions; write a function and see what complexity it has; etc.
11:31:11 <ehirdiphone> hi ais523
11:31:24 <ais523> hi
11:31:37 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I like that idea
11:32:08 <ehirdiphone> I think it's impossible in the general case; take:
11:32:13 <ehirdiphone> a = a
11:32:28 <ehirdiphone> a :: O(?) a
11:32:45 <ehirdiphone> but it could just require you to specify the type there
11:32:59 <ehirdiphone> and let you do O(inf), I guess
11:33:12 <ehirdiphone> but:
11:33:32 <ehirdiphone> error : str -> O(inf) 'a
11:33:35 <ehirdiphone> and
11:33:59 <ehirdiphone> fact n = if n<0 then error "argh" else ...
11:34:24 <ehirdiphone> is fact n O(n!) or O(inf)?
11:34:42 <ehirdiphone> I guess you just have to return a maybe
11:34:45 <ehirdiphone> instead
11:35:06 <ehirdiphone> also, fib(n) is O(fib(n)), naively
11:35:16 <ehirdiphone> so we need compile time functions
11:35:24 <ehirdiphone> To allow for things like that
11:35:56 <ehirdiphone> er fact is O(n) PFC
11:35:59 <ehirdiphone> IFC
11:36:02 <ehirdiphone> Ofc
11:36:06 <ehirdiphone> Not n!
11:40:13 <soupdragon> to be honest, O-analysis is so difficult I can't imagine programming a computer to do it
11:51:55 <augur> ehirdiphone: what did you think of End of Time?
11:52:09 <ehirdiphone> augur: ?
11:52:34 <augur> doctor who
11:52:35 <ehirdiphone> Oh
11:52:50 <ehirdiphone> I've only seen the first; don't spoil the second please
11:52:52 <soupdragon> more like doctor fail
11:53:01 <ehirdiphone> It's repeated today, might catch it
11:53:07 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: die
11:53:42 <ehirdiphone> augur: I'm psyched that Moffat is taking over
11:53:49 <augur> indeed
11:54:44 <soupdragon> I don't even watch it, but it's trendy enough to be complete shit
11:56:23 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: stfu; doctor who is excellent
11:56:37 <soupdragon> im talking about hte new series obviously
11:56:52 <ehirdiphone> stfu regardless
11:57:04 <ehirdiphone> there's nothing wrong with the revival
12:02:00 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: also water is pretty trendy
12:02:09 <ehirdiphone> was unaware it was in fact faeces
12:02:24 <augur> wut
12:03:38 <soupdragon> waters not trendly, smirnoff frosty frootz is trendy
12:04:41 <ehirdiphone> ok then being alive is trendy. if you ignore all the suicide
12:04:45 <ehirdiphone> hmm well
12:04:55 <ehirdiphone> Being alive is arguably complete shut
12:04:57 <ehirdiphone> Shit
12:05:17 <ehirdiphone> oh, fuck it
12:05:43 <soupdragon> string theory: trendy
12:05:54 <soupdragon> there's counter-examples of course
12:05:59 <soupdragon> I just don't know any
12:07:15 <ehirdiphone> sex?
12:07:23 <ehirdiphone> sex is pretty trendy
12:09:08 <augur> speaking of sex, ehird
12:11:20 <soupdragon> there seems to be this idea like "a million people watch it onec a week it must be brilliant" about whatever new sitcom replaced friends or lost, but in reality it's dumbed down to the LCM so people have a common language to say nothing in -- like talking about the weather except 'cool'
12:12:08 <soupdragon> apparently in hot parts of US they talk about the traffic because the weather doesn't fluctuate enough
12:17:13 <soupdragon> yeah I know I'm too cynical for my own good
12:38:01 <ehirdiphone> So what. Doctor Who is awesome.
12:38:07 <ehirdiphone> It is also popular.
12:38:19 <ehirdiphone> I don't give a shit about popularity.
12:39:04 <ehirdiphone> augur: I do not want to know what follows.
12:39:07 <ehirdiphone> :P
12:39:27 <augur> nothing follows i just wanted to say that to make you think that ;D
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13:32:25 <soupdragon> this is stupid :P
13:32:32 <soupdragon> Three Worlds Collide
13:33:30 <augur> ?
13:36:10 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: it's a good story
13:36:26 <ehirdiphone> it gets better btw
13:36:30 <soupdragon> just the 4chan and 'internet is for porn' references make me baulk
13:36:43 <ehirdiphone> lighten up
13:36:44 <soupdragon> yeah I'm only half way
13:37:02 <soupdragon> yeah I just said it's stupid, I have nothing against stupid
13:37:07 <ehirdiphone> lol
13:37:24 <ais523> just think, all the amazing resources we have on the Internet are a byproduct of people wanting porn
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13:57:40 <ehirdiphone> ais523: pretty much!
13:57:49 <ehirdiphone> but porn killed Betamax!
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14:45:34 <soupdragon> question: I have an idea for a website, but I have no experience in any of the necessary skills to build it myself. What do I do?
14:45:41 <soupdragon> answer: I have an idea for a faster-than-light spacecraft which would accelerate space exploration exponentially. I have no idea how to build it. Suggestions?
14:47:10 <oerjan> indeed, with a faster-than-light spacecraft you could travel backwards in time with a copy of your website
14:47:18 <soupdragon> XD
14:49:14 <oerjan> there is however a significant danger things will get messed up and you have to be saved by an anthropomorphic/stuffed tiger
14:50:39 <soupdragon> ahh that was one fo the most fun ones
14:51:48 <oerjan> yes (not that i've read them all)
15:01:50 <oerjan> <ehirdiphone> So if fuse:fusion, I guess fiss:fission.
15:02:07 <oerjan> apparently fission comes from the latin verb "findo"
15:02:32 <oerjan> which probably wasn't borrowed because it resembles "find"...
15:03:40 <oerjan> latin 3rd conjugation verbs to all sort of consonant merging and stuff
15:03:43 <oerjan> *do
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16:43:36 <soupdragon> Vinge has said [1] that the "important" sequel to Bookworm would have featured the first human with amplified intelligence; however, when he attempted to sell such a story to John W. Campbell, Campbell rejected it with the explanation "You can't write this story. Neither can anyone else."
16:43:46 <soupdragon> I don't get this, why can't anyone write this story?
16:46:46 <mycroftiv> soupdragon: no clue if this is what campbell was thinking, but you can claim that you cant accurately simulate an intelligence greater than your own and that would be necessary for such a story
16:47:02 <mycroftiv> i dont think thats a very good argument though personally
16:47:15 <soupdragon> me neither
16:47:29 <soupdragon> infact I don't even think it is true
16:47:30 <mycroftiv> given that we generally assume that art can meaningfully portrary/refer/represent things even without actually possessing those qualities
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16:52:48 <ehirdiphone> a crypt of misunderstanderment!
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16:56:10 <ehirdiphone> C opinion poll: typedef struct _Foo Foo; struct _Foo {...};
16:56:12 <ehirdiphone> or
16:56:27 <ehirdiphone> typedef struct _Foo {...} Foo;
16:56:36 <mycroftiv> the former
16:56:40 <Deewiant> typedef struct { ... } Foo;
16:56:58 <ehirdiphone> I prefer the former; it doesn't have the strange dangling name and lets you use the alias in the strict itself
16:57:19 <ehirdiphone> Deewiant: Inconsistent when you also define recursive structures.
16:57:24 <mycroftiv> yes, especially the latter point
16:57:40 <ehirdiphone> *struct
16:57:41 <Deewiant> ehirdiphone: No, self-documenting when I do.
16:57:58 <ehirdiphone> Deewiant: What aspect does it document?
16:58:11 <Deewiant> "This struct is self-recursive."
16:58:26 <ehirdiphone> Anyway, it still has the freaky- dangling name.
16:58:33 <ehirdiphone> *freaky-deaky
16:58:43 <ehirdiphone> Deewiant: *self*recursive?
16:58:55 <ehirdiphone> Anyway that is self evident from the definition.
16:58:57 <Deewiant> As in, not mutually recursive with something else.
16:58:58 <mycroftiv> auto-self-recursive
16:59:11 <ehirdiphone> I admit though struct type names are a c wart
16:59:20 <ehirdiphone> C++ actually gets this right,
16:59:30 <ehirdiphone> struct foo {...} defines type foo
16:59:43 <Deewiant> Underscores followed by a capital letter are reserved identifiers, you shouldn't be using them :-P
16:59:50 <Deewiant> Can't remember if that was only POSIX though.
17:00:31 <ehirdiphone> I would actually use:
17:00:50 <ehirdiphone> typedef struct widget Widget;
17:00:56 <ehirdiphone> struct widget
17:00:58 <ehirdiphone> {
17:01:02 <ehirdiphone> ...
17:01:06 <ehirdiphone> };
17:01:28 <ehirdiphone> No need to adorn names in the struct namespace.
17:05:33 <ehirdiphone> I wish Plan 9 C's struct inheritance was widely supported.
17:06:15 <ehirdiphone> Sure, the standard lets you do struct foo { struct bar *parent; ... }
17:06:20 <fizzie> Deewiant: C99 7.1.3 Reserved identifiers: "All identifiers that begin with an underscore and either an uppercase letter or another underscore are always reserved for any use. All identifiers that begin with an underscore are always reserved for use as identifiers with file scope in both the ordinary and tag name spaces."
17:06:27 <ehirdiphone> and explicitly lets you cast it like that
17:06:37 <ehirdiphone> But it's ugly
17:06:56 <Deewiant> fizzie: Cheers
17:07:47 <ehirdiphone> I wonder; does C99 let you use Unicode in identifiers? I guess not.
17:08:08 <Deewiant> Yes, it does.
17:08:17 <ehirdiphone> Sweet.
17:08:51 <ehirdiphone> •(f,g)
17:09:07 <ehirdiphone> €(1000)
17:09:17 <ehirdiphone> MWAHAHAHaha
17:09:25 <Deewiant> ehirdiphone: Not arbitrary Unicode.
17:09:25 <ehirdiphone> MWAHAHahaha
17:09:30 <Deewiant> There's a restricted set.
17:09:35 <Deewiant> And it's not even all letters.
17:09:39 <ehirdiphone> Feckless.
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17:10:05 <ehirdiphone> Feckless is my new favourite autocorrection of feck.
17:10:19 <Deewiant> You'll find the list in ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) Annex D.
17:10:29 * anmaster_l wonders why there is no package for znc in arch
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17:10:34 <anmaster_l> well, in aur there is
17:10:49 <ehirdiphone> "ehird, read the C spec on your iPhone."
17:10:54 <ehirdiphone> "No."
17:12:39 <ehirdiphone> #define if(x) if(__builtin_constant_p(x) ? (x) : !(x))
17:12:53 <fizzie> ehirdiphone: http://pastebin.com/m4406d890
17:12:56 <ehirdiphone> I am become WTF, destroyer of programmers' minds.
17:13:31 <ehirdiphone> fizzie: Thank you for that entirely useless list. :P
17:13:38 <fizzie> ehirdiphone: You're welcome!
17:13:46 <ehirdiphone> After a while you don't see the codepoints.
17:14:03 <ehirdiphone> All I see is blonde, brunette, redhead...
17:14:18 <fizzie> Blonde, brunette, redhead, bopomofo.
17:15:13 <ehirdiphone> I think you can do currying in cpp...
17:15:29 <anmaster_l> ehirdiphone, so I'm dual booting gentoo and arch atm. In the process of switching over
17:15:35 <ehirdiphone> #define apply(f,x) f(x)
17:15:37 <anmaster_l> may take a bit before I drop gentoo completely
17:15:39 <ehirdiphone> then eg
17:16:08 <ehirdiphone> #define _1(f) _1_,f
17:16:29 <ehirdiphone> #define _1_(f,x) f(x)
17:16:34 <ehirdiphone> Usage:
17:17:15 <ehirdiphone> apply3(##apply(_1,func), someval)
17:17:18 <ehirdiphone> Given
17:17:24 <ehirdiphone> *apply2
17:17:39 <ehirdiphone> #define apply2(f,x,y) f(x,y)
17:17:43 <ehirdiphone> No?
17:18:09 <soupdragon> I don't get it
17:18:18 <ehirdiphone> anmaster_l: Abandoning source distros? You? Thought I'd never see the day
17:18:30 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: What bit confuses you?
17:18:40 <soupdragon> none of it seems to make any sense
17:18:51 <ehirdiphone> Do you know cpp?
17:18:56 <soupdragon> not realyl
17:19:03 <soupdragon> I've written some programs in it
17:19:03 <ehirdiphone> Well then :P
17:19:14 <ehirdiphone> cpp. The preprocessor
17:19:18 <ehirdiphone> Not C++
17:19:21 <soupdragon> oh
17:19:26 <soupdragon> right well I know cpp better than c++
17:19:37 <ehirdiphone> :D
17:20:08 <soupdragon> I didn't know you could paste like that
17:20:18 <soupdragon> to get apply3(_1_,func,someval)
17:20:32 <ehirdiphone> I think you need a ## after the call too
17:20:39 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: apply2 actually
17:20:46 <soupdragon> apply3(##apply2(_1,func)##, someval) ?
17:21:08 <ehirdiphone> I know cpp has a specific rule forbidding , interpolation but surely ## overrides it
17:21:16 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: apply3->2
17:21:26 <ehirdiphone> 2 args to func
17:21:26 <soupdragon> apply2(##apply(_1,func)##, someval)
17:21:26 <soupdragon> ?
17:21:31 <ehirdiphone> yeah
17:21:34 <ehirdiphone> I think
17:21:42 <soupdragon> error: macro "apply2" requires 3 arguments, but only 2 given
17:21:42 <anmaster_l> <ehirdiphone> anmaster_l: Abandoning source distros? You? Thought I'd never see the day <-- actually I use freebsd on another system
17:21:55 <anmaster_l> ehirdiphone, using ports
17:22:05 <ehirdiphone> "distros"
17:22:18 <soupdragon> the ## doesn't do anything
17:22:59 <ehirdiphone> eh?
17:23:28 <ehirdiphone> Ok then how about
17:23:32 <soupdragon> it needs to be inside a #define
17:23:37 <ehirdiphone> Yes
17:23:38 <ehirdiphone> Duh
17:23:50 <ehirdiphone> Put it onside one
17:23:53 <ehirdiphone> *inside
17:24:52 <mycroftiv> this idea seems vaguely relevant at the moment, ehird might like it: in a purely source based environment, why not build static binaries with no use of libraries at all, just a preprocessing step where every function needed (and no others) is inlined
17:25:09 <soupdragon> I don't think this is possible ehird
17:25:38 <soupdragon> to paste f(x,u,z) into f(x,a,b,c,z)
17:25:40 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: :(
17:26:33 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: ok then, different cpp idea
17:27:46 <ehirdiphone> cpp is repeatedly executed on its output until there is no change. there is a special define as if #define NL (newline)
17:27:54 <ehirdiphone> so eg you could do
17:28:27 <ehirdiphone> #define foo(x) #include #x NL #define included_##x
17:28:48 <ehirdiphone> usage foo(blah.h)
17:28:55 <ehirdiphone> Task: prove tc or not
17:29:02 <ehirdiphone> I've thought about it a bit
17:29:06 <ehirdiphone> Pretty sure it's tc
17:29:22 <anmaster_l> <ehirdiphone> "distros"
17:29:23 <anmaster_l> yes?
17:29:27 <anmaster_l> you didn't say "linux distro"
17:29:35 <anmaster_l> one could argue freebsd is a freebsd distro
17:29:49 <anmaster_l> and isn't pc-bsd based on freebsd?
17:29:51 <soupdragon> it's not valid :(
17:30:00 <anmaster_l> so there are two freebsd distros then
17:30:01 <soupdragon> I can imagine it though
17:30:04 <anmaster_l> freebsd and pc-bsd
17:30:07 <anmaster_l> unless I misremember
17:30:45 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: nit valid how
17:30:49 <ehirdiphone> *not
17:31:03 <soupdragon> the #define
17:31:27 <ehirdiphone> anmaster_l: in that case *bsd are just 386bsd (aka jolix) distros
17:31:29 <soupdragon> -->NL #define inc<--
17:31:38 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: read the lines above
17:31:50 <ehirdiphone> Just run cpp in a loop
17:31:59 <soupdragon> yeah cpp in a loop is TC
17:32:02 <ehirdiphone> With s/NL/\n/ in between
17:34:06 <anmaster_l> ehirdiphone, indeed
17:34:50 <ehirdiphone> I actually considered forking 386BSD...
17:34:56 <ehirdiphone> But that's too much work.
17:35:06 <ehirdiphone> I'm more familiar with Linux, anyway.
17:36:27 <anmaster_l> ehirdiphone, os x?
17:36:32 <anmaster_l> doesn't it count
17:36:39 <anmaster_l> that's *bsd userland anyway
17:36:59 <ehirdiphone> What about it?
17:37:24 <ehirdiphone> btw, the kernel is essentially BSD-on-Mach
17:39:42 <ehirdiphone> Linux pre-2.4 isn't even updated for security, is it?
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17:55:26 <ehirdiphone> http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~felipe/IFT2030-Automne2002/Complements/tinyc.c wow this code is tight
17:55:30 <ehirdiphone> and pretty
17:59:55 <Deewiant> That doesn't look like a compiler
18:00:17 <Deewiant> Looks like an interpreter that prints out every variable's value at termination
18:01:24 <ehirdiphone> It compiles to VM instructions.
18:01:33 <ehirdiphone> Look at the code generator section.
18:01:59 <ehirdiphone> Regardless, it's under 300 lines of code and very readable.
18:02:06 <ehirdiphone> Which is impressive.
18:02:09 <Deewiant> Ah, okay.
18:02:58 <Deewiant> Well, line count is easily reduced by having 5 statements per line :-P
18:04:07 <Deewiant> $ indent < tinyc.c | wc -l
18:04:07 <Deewiant> 549
18:04:20 <soupdragon> that's very impressivle
18:05:31 <ehirdiphone> Deewiant: Strip the comments
18:05:35 <ehirdiphone> No fair
18:06:00 <Deewiant> Still 500.
18:07:04 <ehirdiphone> How about with sloccount?
18:07:32 <ehirdiphone> Whitespace, lines with just } and similar aren't really active lines of code.
18:07:49 <Deewiant> 447
18:08:49 <Deewiant> indent -kr puts it at 397
18:08:53 <ehirdiphone> (sloccount skips whitespace tight?)
18:08:59 <Deewiant> Tight.
18:09:10 <ehirdiphone> 397 is very good IMO :P
18:09:46 <Deewiant> Sure.
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18:35:56 <ehirdiphone> Hi AnMaster.
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19:42:36 <coppro> whee
19:43:03 <coppro> hmm... doesn't have the command I need
19:43:05 <coppro> time to add it I guess
19:43:58 <AnMaster> what the heck is harriman
19:45:06 <coppro> it's a long story
19:45:51 <lament> @games
19:46:09 <coppro> note that none of those work
19:47:44 <lament> oh good
19:47:48 <AnMaster> coppro, how is it esolang related?
19:47:55 <coppro> AnMaster: It really isn't
19:47:59 <AnMaster> mhm
19:48:02 <coppro> I'm trying to add a command to move it out of here
19:48:35 -!- harriman has left (?).
19:48:38 <coppro> there we go
19:48:40 <coppro> <3 Erlang
19:49:12 <AnMaster> "CONFIG_PARPORT_PC_FIFO:
19:49:12 <AnMaster> Many parallel port chipsets provide hardware that can speed up
19:49:12 <AnMaster> printing. Say Y here if you want to take advantage of that."
19:49:18 <coppro> the bot's actually modular; the games module is the only one with any real development though
19:49:38 <AnMaster> since when would you need DMA for a parallel printer XD
19:49:42 <AnMaster> parallel port*
19:49:58 <AnMaster> well maybe a better question would be "since when wouldn't you"
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19:51:17 <coppro> hm... that's an issue
19:52:34 <AnMaster> coppro, what is?
19:52:52 <coppro> something to do with my bot
19:52:57 <coppro> just the way it parses some commands
19:56:05 <coppro> wewt, crash...
20:01:11 <madbr> man, looking at chip-8
20:01:16 <madbr> interesting design
20:01:42 <madbr> sorely lacking in "easy shit that looks pretty" stuff tho :D
20:05:42 <coppro> hmm... pretty sure that isn't supposed to happen
20:05:45 <coppro> oh well... homework to do
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20:51:31 <nooga> hello
20:59:38 <nooga> OGC
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21:16:23 <nooga> diphone
21:17:03 <ehirdiphone> I love how R5RS seems pretty benign and then you get to call-with-current-continuation. A few minutes later, it bludgeons you with dynamic-wind.
21:17:17 <ehirdiphone> Oh no, it's nooga.
21:17:29 <nooga> cheers
21:17:57 <madbr> hmm, how could something like chip-8 be modernized
21:18:06 <ehirdiphone> With magic. L
21:18:07 <madbr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIP-8
21:18:07 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone,
21:18:15 <ehirdiphone> / L/d
21:18:16 <AnMaster> while configuring a 2.6.32 kernel:
21:18:18 <AnMaster> "This option will be removed in 2.6.29."
21:18:39 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: GNU-quality engineering!
21:19:10 <ehirdiphone> Bah, I'm turning into a grumpy old bastard who hates everything modern.
21:19:20 <nooga> and uses an iphone
21:19:32 <ehirdiphone> Well, there is that.
21:19:35 <AnMaster> and is uh 14 years old
21:19:41 <ehirdiphone> And that.
21:19:43 <AnMaster> or "young"
21:19:44 <AnMaster> rather
21:19:46 <ehirdiphone> But apart from that.
21:19:53 <AnMaster> you should say "14 years young"
21:20:41 <ehirdiphone> Gimme my libc4, my Linux 2.0, my a.out, my XFree86, my BSD userland. My X terminals!
21:21:01 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what file system
21:21:41 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, know that Linux 2.0 definitely didn't have any journaling fs
21:21:44 <ehirdiphone> Um. I don't know. How about ext's little-known and nonexistent predecessor, whose name is the null string.
21:21:52 <ehirdiphone> It's ext without the ext.
21:21:53 <AnMaster> also what the crap is up with the spell checking on here
21:21:55 <AnMaster> on arch
21:22:17 <AnMaster> it is abysmal, in fact it doesn't even know the word "abysmal"
21:22:38 <ehirdiphone> That's because you've spelt it wrong.
21:22:42 <AnMaster> on gentoo I had one that knew everything, even stuff no one used any more
21:22:50 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well it had no suggestions for it either
21:22:57 <ehirdiphone> Absymal.
21:23:11 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, it doesn't accept Absymal either
21:23:16 <ehirdiphone> Just pirate Webster's, the old one
21:23:18 <AnMaster> s/ / /
21:23:21 <ehirdiphone> It's public domain
21:23:27 <ehirdiphone> So not really pirate
21:23:28 <AnMaster> I'm not sure what this one uses...
21:23:36 <AnMaster> it doesn't seem to be aspell
21:23:41 <AnMaster> since that isn't even installed !?
21:23:49 <ehirdiphone> You won't get things like "blog" though
21:23:56 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Ispell?
21:24:28 <ehirdiphone> damn R5RS is still such a nice language
21:24:42 <ehirdiphone> I forget that every so often then look at the spec again
21:24:43 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, about "blog", won't make a difference here. It doesn't know it either.
21:25:03 <AnMaster> also it thinks that "doesn't" are two words, doesn and t, t being a valid word, doesn is not
21:25:10 <ehirdiphone> Webster's is from the 1910s though :P
21:25:11 <AnMaster> complete and utter failure
21:26:15 <ehirdiphone> I should write yet another R5RS compiler.
21:27:00 <ehirdiphone> Continuation-passing style transformation and Cheney on the MTA garbage collection are good for you.
21:27:30 <nooga> how does it look in practise?
21:27:59 <ehirdiphone> R5RS is the last true Scheme, if you don't know it by that moniker.
21:28:25 <coppro> lies
21:28:26 * AnMaster wonders why xchat has --enable-mmx
21:28:41 <AnMaster> it seems so out of place for an irc client
21:28:46 <coppro> (actually, I don't know enough about Scheme to know why people hate R6RS and I don't particularly care)
21:28:46 <ehirdiphone> (R6RS, the latest report, defines a language superficially similar but a complete miscarriage of Scheme's philosophy in actuality.)
21:29:04 <coppro> ehirdiphone: is there a good link on this?
21:30:06 <nooga> isn't Scheme just grotesque Lisp dialect?
21:30:10 <ehirdiphone> coppro: The R6RS votes page. Note the lack of reasoning for almost all yes votes. Note the in depth objections from experienced Schemers on the no votes. Note how it only passed by a small majority.
21:30:22 <ehirdiphone> nooga: It is VERY ungrotesque.
21:30:24 <coppro> link?
21:30:35 <ehirdiphone> coppro: r6rs.org.
21:30:40 <coppro> no, to the votes page
21:30:42 <ehirdiphone> Some link there.
21:31:23 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Also note that the vast majority of implementers said they would not adopt R6RS and indeed haven't.
21:31:31 * AnMaster recompiles xchat to use gtkspell so he can get that language selection pop-up menu.
21:31:37 <ehirdiphone> It has... not been a hit.
21:31:53 <AnMaster> also what the crap is up with not knowing "recompiles" but knowing "recompile"
21:31:57 <AnMaster> that is just so very very broken
21:32:00 <coppro> I cannot find this page you speak of
21:32:04 <coppro> link or it didn't happen
21:32:20 <ehirdiphone> Not on the iPhone. Just RTF page
21:32:43 <coppro> did
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21:33:41 <ehirdiphone> Re my earlier remarks about implementing R5RS being good for you: ...but figuring out how DYNAMIC-WIND interacts with everything else is like shooting 5,000 bags of heroin a day for 1,000 years, except instead of getting high your face is stomped on by a burning poker.
21:33:48 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Sec. I'll look. L
21:33:57 <ehirdiphone> / L/d
21:34:36 <nooga> ehirdiphone: is it enough ungrotesque to make you want to design hardware r6rs scheme processor and write very sophisticated OS for that in r6rs scheme?
21:34:41 <nooga> urgh
21:35:46 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what is DYNAMIC-WIND?
21:35:55 <coppro> AnMsater: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_576
21:35:56 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Ugh, they removed the ratification results.
21:36:02 <AnMaster> I don't remember that from r5rs? or would it be some r6rs thing?
21:36:04 <ehirdiphone> Still have a broken link to it.
21:36:08 <coppro> looks pretty straightforward, actually
21:36:16 <ehirdiphone> nooga: you're a fool
21:36:33 <ehirdiphone> coppro: It interacts with callcc
21:36:34 <nooga> ehirdiphone: that's not an answer
21:36:36 <ehirdiphone> Very horribly
21:36:38 <coppro> ehirdiphone: yes, I see
21:36:48 <ehirdiphone> nooga: I don't talk to trolls
21:37:07 <AnMaster> nooga, what has r6rs got to do with being ungrotesque?
21:37:20 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I think he must have misinterpreted you
21:37:29 <nooga> ehirdiphone said that it's VERY ungrotesque
21:37:35 <AnMaster> nooga, ehirdiphone meant that r5rs was ungrotesque... Not r6rs
21:37:43 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Shh
21:37:44 <nooga> nvm
21:37:49 <ehirdiphone> You're feeding the idiot
21:38:07 <coppro> yay, food!
21:38:11 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, maybe he will someday turn less idiotic by the osmosis?
21:38:15 <ehirdiphone> He's just making fun of my OS/hardware tendencies
21:38:28 <nooga> erm
21:38:30 <nooga> no
21:38:32 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: we did try that for months...
21:38:38 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, oh okay then
21:38:43 <AnMaster> test -z "/etc/gconf/schemas" || /bin/mkdir -p "/home/arvid/src/system/xchat/pkg/etc/gconf/schemas"
21:38:43 <AnMaster> ../../../0 -m 644 'apps_xchat_url_handler.schemas' '/home/arvid/src/system/xchat/pkg/etc/gconf/schemas/apps_xchat_url_handler.schemas'
21:38:43 <AnMaster> /bin/sh: line 4: ../../../0: No such file or directory
21:38:48 <AnMaster> VERY strange build error
21:39:15 <nooga> ehirdiphone: I was not making fun
21:41:08 <ehirdiphone> "urgh" immediately otherwise and you referring to it as r6rs when it was r5rs I praised, plus historical evidence, suggests otherwise. But whatever
21:41:14 <ehirdiphone> I'm tired
21:41:32 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I believe he must simply have misunderstood you
21:41:35 <nooga> naaah, that urgh was about my weird grammar
21:41:53 <nooga> and i thought we were talking about r6rs
21:42:00 <nooga> nvm, i'm a fool and troll
21:42:10 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, maybe it worked after all ^
21:42:33 <nooga> i'll better shut up
21:42:50 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, isn't it said that realising your own faults is the first step towards getting rid of those?
21:42:57 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:43:06 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: this is his self hate mode
21:43:08 <AnMaster> (no offence meant to anyone here)
21:43:16 <ehirdiphone> Hes done it before
21:43:19 <AnMaster> oh
21:43:50 <nooga> because I LIKE watching how my behaviour infuriates ehird, it's amusing :
21:43:52 <nooga> :D
21:44:34 <nooga> but it's over, I promise
21:44:59 <AnMaster> UNROLL drivers/md/raid6altivec1.c
21:44:59 <AnMaster> CC [M] drivers/md/raid6altivec1.o
21:44:59 <AnMaster> UNROLL drivers/md/raid6altivec2.c
21:44:59 <AnMaster> hm
21:45:06 <AnMaster> I wonder why it is compiling that
21:45:09 <AnMaster> on x86_64
21:45:19 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, ^ XD
21:45:29 <AnMaster> also how the heck does it even succeed in compiling it
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21:47:23 <ehirdiphone> http://sisc-scheme.org/r5rs_pitfall.php I love the MAP caveat
21:47:33 <ehirdiphone> Such an unexpected language quirk
21:50:05 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info").
21:50:29 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
21:51:14 <nooga> ehirdiphone: ever tried xmonad?
21:51:20 <ehirdiphone> Yes.
21:51:26 <nooga> and how was it?
21:51:42 <ehirdiphone> Configuration system sucks, generally not as good as dwm or wmii.
21:52:49 <nooga> how about awesome?
21:53:11 <ehirdiphone> awesome is dwm with a lot of stuff, mostly superfluous, added to it.
21:54:42 <nooga> I asked about xmonad because Wadler inspired me to play with haskell again
21:54:59 <nooga> last month I went to Edinburgh to visit my friend from UoE and accidentally met Phil Wadler after his lecture
21:55:10 -!- dbc has joined.
21:55:11 <ehirdiphone> Haskell is great.
21:55:55 <nooga> uhm
21:55:59 <ehirdiphone> L
21:56:02 <AnMaster> shiretoko, hard to remember name for arch linux's firefox
21:56:02 <ehirdiphone> Oops
21:56:21 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Mozilla's fault.
21:56:31 <coppro> yeah :(
21:56:37 <ehirdiphone> Blame their fucking idiotic trademark policies.
21:56:39 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, you mean the branding thing, well yes
21:56:47 <AnMaster> but why call it "shiretoko" instead
21:56:48 <ehirdiphone> Mozilla are as bad as Sun and IBM.
21:56:49 <AnMaster> it
21:56:55 <AnMaster> it's* a hard to remember name
21:57:00 <ehirdiphone> Once a corporation always a corporation.
21:57:11 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Its the official codename
21:57:14 <ehirdiphone> Of 3.5
21:57:24 <coppro> At least Debian is consistent about there
21:57:27 <coppro> *theirs
21:57:29 <AnMaster> hah
21:57:30 <ehirdiphone> It will change for the next version, etc.
21:57:31 <AnMaster> aha*
21:57:37 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, gentoo can actually work around it, since you can compile it for personal use with official logo iirc
21:57:41 <AnMaster> so they offer a useflag for it
21:57:44 <ehirdiphone> Yes.
21:57:58 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, source based distros are better at some stuff :P
21:58:09 <AnMaster> of course it is stupid this is required
21:58:23 <ehirdiphone> I read the debian thread that kicked it all off
21:58:32 <ehirdiphone> Mozilla guys were jerks
21:58:40 <coppro> yep :(
21:58:51 <ehirdiphone> Debian were like "Fuck you guys, we can't call firefox firefox now"
21:59:13 <coppro> I can see the rationale behind blocking one user from using a trademark
21:59:15 <coppro> if they're bad about it
21:59:19 <coppro> but blanket policies = :(
21:59:43 <ehirdiphone> Good thing firefox is shit
22:00:06 <coppro> most applications are shit
22:00:33 <ehirdiphone> Firefox is a bad browser, though. There are better.
22:00:41 <coppro> Depends on the purpose
22:00:59 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, "works on most web pages"? I think firefox manages very well there
22:01:08 <ehirdiphone> If your purpose isn't "experience hell", firefox is probably the wrong choice
22:01:21 <coppro> Firefox is pretty usuable
22:01:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:01:26 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Webkit + presto (operas engine) do that perfectly well
22:01:35 <ehirdiphone> coppro: *unusable
22:01:36 <nooga> but
22:01:39 <ehirdiphone> Agreed!
22:01:40 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, presto is open source?
22:01:45 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: No.
22:01:50 <nooga> but but
22:01:54 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, not relevant to me then
22:01:58 <coppro> ehirdiphone: how, in your mind, is it unusable?
22:02:06 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: I never asked for your opinion.
22:02:19 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, webkit might be worth a try
22:02:47 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Crufty, slow ui; slow performance; requires extensions to just be not retarded
22:03:00 <nooga> webkit? don't be riddiculous, just look at Slowfari
22:03:01 <ehirdiphone> Memory hog too
22:03:13 <ehirdiphone> nooga: Webkit is the fastest engine.
22:03:19 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, if it supports features I use. Like adblock, noscript, firebug (script debugger and live editor for css/html plus more). And I'm not interested in your opinion on those add-ons
22:03:21 <ehirdiphone> Apart from maybe Opera's
22:03:34 <coppro> ehirdiphone: It's not slow to the point of unusability unless you're doing something stupid; the bit about extensions is part of its appeal
22:03:41 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Stop using me as a soapbox.
22:03:49 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, hm?
22:03:55 <nooga> what? :D
22:03:58 <ehirdiphone> "ehird:" should preferably be relevant to me...
22:04:17 <coppro> (not that the complaints about speed/memory are not valid, because they are)
22:04:33 <ehirdiphone> coppro: You have to download third party stuff to make it not terrible == it is shit
22:05:04 <coppro> ehirdiphone: what exactly?
22:05:06 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well since you were recommending them to me
22:05:15 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: You asked.
22:05:19 <ehirdiphone> Ima go sleep now
22:05:22 <ehirdiphone> Tired.
22:05:26 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I thought you were suggesting ones that would fit me
22:05:29 <coppro> before or after you back up your assertions?
22:05:42 <AnMaster> coppro, before, wouldn't be ehird otherwise
22:05:45 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Its all a conspiracy to avoid answering you!
22:05:53 <ehirdiphone> xxxxxx
22:05:56 <ehirdiphone> Zzzzzzz
22:05:57 <coppro> zzzzz?
22:05:59 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info").
22:06:14 <nooga> uhuh
22:06:25 <AnMaster> also, firefox 3.5 seems quite snappy to me, older versions less so
22:06:33 <nooga> i like ff
22:07:05 <AnMaster> nooga, codewise it is horrible
22:07:20 <nooga> and firebug is irreplaceable
22:07:24 <coppro> AnMaster: try running a ton of JavaScript
22:07:29 <coppro> my 3 complaints for Firefox 3.5:
22:07:33 <coppro> - Memory consumption
22:07:35 <AnMaster> coppro, well I do use noscript anyway
22:07:39 <coppro> - JavaScript speed
22:07:49 <AnMaster> coppro, I seldom visit js heavy sites
22:07:53 <coppro> AnMaster: pretty irrelevant; regular page script isn't what does it
22:07:55 <AnMaster> of course firefox itself is js-heavy
22:07:58 -!- augur has joined.
22:08:02 <AnMaster> coppro, what does it then?
22:08:09 <coppro> - JavaScript garbage collection shuts the whole thing down
22:08:16 <coppro> AnMaster: running a JS application (like ChatZilla)
22:08:19 <coppro> (or Wave)
22:08:24 <AnMaster> coppro, ah, never used them
22:08:36 <coppro> ChatZilla isn't terrible, but Wave just nukes it
22:08:40 <AnMaster> coppro, for irc I tend to prefer a real client
22:08:50 <AnMaster> as for wave, well google want people to use chrome, no?
22:08:55 <coppro> yep :/
22:09:03 <coppro> CZ is a real client, if I ever get it running in XULRunner
22:09:07 <AnMaster> coppro, why not replace firefox's js engine
22:09:16 <coppro> AnMaster: because they just got a knew one?
22:09:19 <coppro> and it still sucks?
22:09:23 <AnMaster> knew one?
22:09:27 <coppro> at least it doesn't leak memory any more
22:09:29 <AnMaster> new you mean?
22:09:30 <coppro> *new one
22:09:47 <coppro> now the memory leakage is left up to Xorg
22:09:59 <AnMaster> coppro, does the new one JIT?
22:09:59 <nooga> Xorg leaks?
22:10:06 <coppro> AnMaster: no clue
22:10:29 <coppro> nooga: I think it's other applications leaking X resources or something, but it's only cured by restarting X
22:10:38 <AnMaster> coppro, also there is a solution that google won't be able to do anything about: start using v8d in firefox
22:10:47 <AnMaster> then it will be exactly as fast as chrome
22:10:48 <AnMaster> ;P
22:10:59 <AnMaster> but there are pretty large downsides to that
22:10:59 <coppro> http://www.v8d.org/?
22:11:12 <AnMaster> coppro, whatever the one google used
22:11:17 <AnMaster> wasn't it called v8 or such?
22:11:21 <AnMaster> I forgot the exact name
22:11:24 <coppro> oh, you mean the script engine?
22:11:28 <AnMaster> coppro, well yes
22:11:45 <coppro> I don't know; I think Firefox's script engine is pretty married to the rest of it
22:11:48 <AnMaster> coppro, v8d sounds like an irc network I was on years ago. long before I was on freenode
22:11:52 <coppro> not sure though
22:11:54 <AnMaster> so I guess I mixed them up
22:12:00 * AnMaster wonders if that irc network still exists
22:12:13 <AnMaster> oh seems so
22:12:23 <coppro> it is the v8 engine
22:12:28 <AnMaster> coppro, v8 it was then
22:12:29 <AnMaster> right
22:12:29 <coppro> according to google
22:12:36 <AnMaster> I guess they know ;P
22:12:55 <AnMaster> coppro, anyway, why so married you meant
22:12:55 <coppro> oh, I also hate the abysmal set of Linux plugins, but that's not really FF's fault
22:13:04 <AnMaster> coppro, what?
22:13:07 <coppro> AnMaster: difficult to separate
22:13:10 <AnMaster> abysmal set of Linux plugins? for what?
22:13:19 <AnMaster> coppro, bad design, should be made modular
22:13:27 <coppro> AnMaster: Linux plugins cause freezes, leaks, etc. especially Flash
22:13:32 <AnMaster> with a clean interface
22:13:47 <AnMaster> coppro, oh hah, I don't use any plugins. Especially not closed source ones
22:13:50 <coppro> AnMaster: yes, I agree it's bad design; I'm not 100% sure that's the case though and it's not my problem either way
22:14:01 <coppro> AnMaster: you really care that much about open source?
22:14:12 <AnMaster> coppro, well there is one limit: nvidia drivers
22:14:15 <AnMaster> I do need 3D graphics
22:14:33 <AnMaster> coppro, apart from that and BIOS, plus possible some firmware. I think I'm clean
22:14:34 <coppro> isn't the new open-source driver supposed to be better than the closed-source ones?
22:14:42 <AnMaster> coppro, isn't that for ATI?
22:14:53 <coppro> AnMaster: No... what was it called... it was on /.
22:15:03 <AnMaster> coppro, on /?
22:15:05 * AnMaster looks
22:15:11 <coppro> nouveau
22:15:14 <AnMaster> $ ls /.
22:15:14 <AnMaster> bin boot dev etc home lib lib64 lost+found media mnt opt proc root sbin srv sys tmp usr var
22:15:22 <AnMaster> can't see anything about nvidia there
22:15:23 <AnMaster> ;P
22:15:32 <coppro> :P
22:15:49 <AnMaster> "3D support is worked on using Gallium3D and can (depending on the Chip generation and the applications) be quite usable. Breakage in the 3D-drivers can (and will) however occur, they are known and are not needed to be reported. When that status change this page will be updated. "
22:15:50 <AnMaster> well
22:15:55 <AnMaster> sounds like out of question for me
22:15:59 <coppro> According to the /. article, there's a preloader that's part of the closed-source stuff, but otherwise it's open-source
22:16:02 <AnMaster> coppro, I need flight sim and such to work
22:16:06 <coppro> ah, ok
22:16:15 <AnMaster> not sure what chipset I have
22:16:17 <AnMaster> of those listed
22:16:22 <coppro> still, I'm surprised you care that much about open source
22:16:24 <AnMaster> 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation G73 [GeForce 7600 GS] (rev a2)
22:16:36 <coppro> I mean, I'm a big fan of it, but I'm not stupid about it
22:16:38 <AnMaster> coppro, can you figure out which on http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FeatureMatrix that is?
22:16:55 <AnMaster> ah found it
22:17:00 <AnMaster> NV40
22:17:02 <AnMaster> probably
22:17:19 <AnMaster> well looks fairly bad
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22:18:55 <AnMaster> coppro, probably it might be useful around the time nvidia drops driver support for my card
22:18:58 <AnMaster> hopefully
22:19:14 <coppro> AnMaster: why do you hate closed-source stuff so much
22:19:15 <coppro> ?
22:19:26 <coppro> (this is a real question, not an accusation or the like)
22:20:03 <AnMaster> coppro, binary blob, you can't fix it if it breaks. for libraries and drivers: you can't easily debug crashes in your own programs if they happen in binary blobs
22:20:04 <AnMaster> and so on
22:20:40 <coppro> AnMaster: those are all reasons against using it when an alternative exists, but if there's no alternative (like with Flash)?
22:20:59 <AnMaster> coppro, the security aspect (harder to sneak in malicious code) is another part. Sure, I won't review everything myself for open source, but the fact that any user could means it is much more risky to try it in open source
22:21:17 <coppro> agreed again
22:21:24 <AnMaster> coppro, with flash there is, only flash I care about is youtube videos. Works with youtube-dl + vlc
22:21:55 <coppro> but you seem to have a rather RMSan aversion from proprietary stuff
22:21:57 <AnMaster> coppro, also, even buggy but non-malicious code tends to be more rare in open source in my experience
22:22:44 <AnMaster> for any open source project with a sufficiently large user base, there will be someone who does fix bugs he/she encounters
22:22:54 <AnMaster> and submits a patch
22:22:59 <coppro> not counting things I do at work, the only proprietary stuff I use regularly is Flash and various web applications
22:23:11 <coppro> s/proprietary/closed source/
22:23:31 <AnMaster> coppro, well, there is java mostly at university web portal system thingy
22:23:34 <coppro> (oh, BIOS too)
22:23:48 <AnMaster> I don't like that either but not as bad as flash
22:23:55 <coppro> Java's open source now :)
22:24:19 <AnMaster> coppro, yes but it is still buggy, open source haven't yet had full effect on it
22:24:26 <coppro> agreed on that point
22:24:36 <coppro> but so it's more a usability thing than a proprietary thing?
22:24:37 <AnMaster> considering how long it took for firefox to get reasonable...
22:24:46 <AnMaster> (and it still is fairly bad in part)
22:25:07 <AnMaster> coppro, also rolling release distros tend to be least buggy, and most up-to-date
22:25:19 <coppro> hmm?
22:25:21 <AnMaster> least buggy I can explain with "no deadlines".
22:25:25 <coppro> don't quite understand that
22:25:40 <AnMaster> but "most up-to-date" would require deadlines. so well quite a paradox
22:25:54 <AnMaster> coppro, consider arch linux vs. ubuntu
22:26:29 <AnMaster> ubuntu is buggier than arch I would say. More well integrated, but bugs exist and are often fixed in a "not really fixed" way
22:26:34 <AnMaster> ais could tell you more about that
22:27:05 <coppro> as an Ubuntu user, I agree about the 'not really fixed' bit
22:27:36 <AnMaster> coppro, arch on the other hand tends to be 1) more bleeding edge (sometimes uncomfortably so) 2) less buggy
22:27:59 <AnMaster> however, not as well integrated, things won't work out of box. But it won't beep at you a lot during shutdown
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22:41:33 <anmaster_l> speaking of which
22:41:45 <anmaster_l> here we go *compiles nvidia for custom kernel*
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22:49:06 <anmaster_l> yay nice bootchar
22:49:08 <anmaster_l> chart*
22:49:10 <anmaster_l> coppro, ^
22:49:21 <coppro> ?
22:49:32 <anmaster_l> coppro, slightly more than 25 seconds boot time
22:49:35 <anmaster_l> for a lot of services
22:49:54 <anmaster_l> and I could speed it up I think
22:50:20 <anmaster_l> to be specific, moving stuff forwards and letting them start concurrently
22:50:22 <coppro> ah
22:50:58 <anmaster_l> coppro, almost 5 seconds of that is mostly idling while waiting for dhcp reply
22:52:23 <nooga> dwm dwm
22:52:25 <nooga> uh
23:12:07 <coppro> anyone have a good logic game I can play quickly (like *gasp* Flash?)
23:16:27 <anmaster_l> http://omploader.org/vMzVnbQ
23:16:39 <anmaster_l> need to be faster
23:17:13 <anmaster_l> smartd actually makes it slower before, due to more disk activity making dhclient take longer to load
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01:13:10 <uorygl> coppro: a Rush Hour clone.
01:13:22 <AnMaster> uorygl, ?
01:13:58 <coppro> link?
01:16:15 <uorygl> I have no links, but there are many for the iPhone.
01:16:31 <coppro> a) I have no iPhone b) I want a game I can play now
01:17:20 <AnMaster> coppro, what type of game did you say?
01:17:49 <coppro> [16:11:42]<coppro>anyone have a good logic game I can play quickly (like *gasp* Flash?)
01:17:55 <coppro> was just looking for a time-killer
01:18:01 <AnMaster> coppro, logic came. Like minesweeper?
01:18:12 <coppro> yes, except ideally one I haven't played before
01:18:15 <AnMaster> coppro, or sudoko?
01:18:18 <coppro> :(
01:18:20 <AnMaster> spelling?
01:18:25 <coppro> was hoping for something more complex
01:18:29 * AnMaster needs to fix this shitty dict
01:18:33 <uorygl> Sudoku.
01:18:34 <AnMaster> coppro, nethack?
01:18:46 <coppro> too complex
01:19:00 <AnMaster> uorygl, yeah it had no suggestions. And it knows "I recompile" but not "he recompiles"
01:19:10 <AnMaster> as in adding an s marks it as unknown
01:19:13 <AnMaster> spelling dict fail
01:19:17 <AnMaster> coppro, meh!
01:19:25 <AnMaster> coppro, hm...
01:19:30 <coppro> like, think Rubicon
01:19:36 <coppro> that's a good example of the sort of thing I'm after
01:19:36 <uorygl> If there is a game known as Nethack--, then that.
01:19:43 <AnMaster> coppro, oh ubunut?
01:19:45 <AnMaster> ubuntu*
01:19:49 <AnMaster> apt-get install kiki
01:19:51 <AnMaster> iirc
01:20:07 <AnMaster> coppro, wait no
01:20:10 <uorygl> What's Rubicon?
01:20:10 <AnMaster> coppro, wrong one
01:20:12 <coppro> oh :(
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01:20:30 <AnMaster> coppro, apt-get install kiki-the-nano-bot
01:20:32 <AnMaster> that was it
01:20:32 <coppro> hmm.. yeah, pretty sure I don't want a free environment for regular expression testing
01:20:39 <AnMaster> coppro, it is a 3D puzzle/logic game
01:20:50 <AnMaster> coppro, you steer a small nanobot
01:20:59 <coppro> cool, thanks
01:21:15 <uorygl> Say, I wonder if Enigma would work on an iPhone.
01:21:16 <AnMaster> coppro, it is fun but confusing. Hint: direction of gravity depends on your view point. Nothing else
01:21:26 <AnMaster> and you can climb on walls and such
01:21:38 <AnMaster> coppro, which leads to some interesting puzzles
01:21:51 <coppro> neat
01:22:19 <AnMaster> coppro, ehird played it for a bit but got frustrated and gave up. I got much farther of course than he did
01:22:34 <AnMaster> iirc fizzie or someone else was testing it at the same time
01:22:34 <coppro> AnMaster: how do you jump?
01:22:48 <AnMaster> coppro, sec
01:23:00 <coppro> wait, it's on the manpage
01:23:02 <AnMaster> coppro, depends on keyboard setup :P
01:23:04 <coppro> holy crap, useful X manpage
01:23:13 <AnMaster> iirc I changed it
01:23:14 <AnMaster> coppro, hm?
01:23:35 <coppro> most x programs have useless manpages in my experience
01:23:52 <AnMaster> coppro, the xorg.conf and xorg modules/drivers man pages tend to be ok
01:24:03 <coppro> but that's not an x program
01:24:07 <AnMaster> true
01:24:14 <coppro> also, any way to get it not to mess with the gamma
01:24:16 <coppro> ?
01:24:52 <AnMaster> coppro, unknown, but it switches back when you change window
01:24:57 <AnMaster> coppro, iirc there is a setting for it
01:25:05 <AnMaster> try "settings"
01:25:20 <AnMaster> coppro, but I found it works better in the gamma it wants to use
01:25:45 <coppro> yeah, it's hideous with my default gamma
01:25:58 <AnMaster> coppro, there you go then ;P
01:26:05 <AnMaster> coppro, it will clean up after itself
01:26:48 <coppro> I'm already confused :(
01:27:12 <coppro> I think I need to hit this switch
01:28:24 <coppro> oh, found the help
01:28:28 <AnMaster> coppro, good
01:28:41 <coppro> not sure how again
01:28:54 <AnMaster> coppro, esc , and enter?
01:29:02 <coppro> oh, right
01:29:07 <coppro> so all my assumptions are correct
01:29:09 <coppro> but something here is wrong
01:29:32 <coppro> ah, got it
01:29:34 <coppro> clever
01:33:52 <AnMaster> coppro, btw I haven't solved it further than halfway or so
01:39:27 <AnMaster> ooh solved another one
01:39:27 <AnMaster> night
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04:31:24 <uorygl> Yay, I understand the unexpected hanging paradox.
04:32:47 <coppro> I understand it...
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04:33:26 <uorygl> Yay, two of us understand the unexpected hanging paradox.
04:33:41 <coppro> it's not that hard to understand
04:34:34 <uorygl> Yay, I understand the Monty Hall problem.
04:34:43 <coppro> ...
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04:50:21 * Sgeo puts uorygl into Monty Hell
04:53:25 <uorygl> Remind me how the Monty Hell problem goes.
04:54:00 <Sgeo> I forgot offhand. Something about dollar bills passing into and out of your hand
04:54:27 <uorygl> Hmm, there is no Monty Hell problem, only a Monty Hall problem, a Monty Fall problem, a Monty Crawl problem, and a Monty Maul problem.
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04:54:54 <Sgeo> http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHNR_enUS321US321&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Monty+Hell disagrees
05:05:11 <uorygl> Hmm, that Monty Hell problem isn't a very monty problem.
06:21:30 <augur> i'd monty your problem
06:21:31 <augur> ;o ;o ;o
06:32:52 <soupdragon> gimme more sci fi
06:33:01 * soupdragon creaks
06:33:36 <soupdragon> ehird any more novellas
06:33:36 <soupdragon> ?
06:51:22 <soupdragon> :(
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07:06:49 <Sgeo> soupdragon, The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect
07:07:00 <Sgeo> (spelling?)
07:07:06 <soupdragon> I have read it a couple days ago! it is very good
07:07:16 <soupdragon> I am thinking maybe I will get some asimov books now
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08:32:59 <coppro> soupdragon: I recommend it
08:33:23 <coppro> soupdragon: read the Empire series; they're quite good and yet generally unknown
08:33:34 <soupdragon> okay
08:33:37 <soupdragon> cheers
08:34:03 <coppro> specifically, those are Pebble in the Sky, something, and The Currents of Space
08:34:23 <coppro> The Stars, Like Dust
08:34:39 <coppro> oh, also Nightfall
08:34:53 <coppro> Nightfall is fantastic
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09:52:28 <cheater> soupdragon: outer join
09:56:37 <soupdragon> ??
10:00:05 <cheater> xor
10:01:26 <soupdragon> oh
10:01:34 <soupdragon> the thing is im just xoring booleans, not sets
10:01:58 <soupdragon> so in the end it makes sense to just write out an xor table
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10:11:28 <cheater> *a
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10:44:23 <soupdragon> ?
10:48:54 <AnMaster> $ host dragon
10:48:54 <AnMaster> dragon.lan has address
10:48:54 <AnMaster> Host dragon.lan not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
10:48:56 <AnMaster> now that was weird
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11:12:47 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: re scifi I hear good things about the Culture books
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11:14:47 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: but if you haven't read them yet I suggest reading the Ed stories (on qntm.org)
11:15:08 <ehirdiphone> can't speak for how good Fine Structure is
11:15:50 <ehirdiphone> http://qntm.org/?robot1
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11:56:08 <cheater> soupdragon: a xor
11:56:34 <cheater> soupdragon: also, a xor b <=> (a or b) and not (a and b)
11:57:10 <soupdragon> an xor
11:58:25 <Gracenotes> it tends to be pronounced "zor"
11:58:35 <fizzie> A xorn.
12:00:57 <fizzie> They say that a xorn knows of no obstacles when pursuing you.
12:01:54 <cheater> a zor
12:01:57 <cheater> a zorn lemma
12:02:01 <cheater> a zorro
12:02:05 <cheater> a zorba
12:04:55 <soupdragon> a zork
12:06:58 <cheater> a yagon
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12:39:48 <soupdragon> a zorgonzola
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13:20:18 <cheater> soupdragon: so you don't need a truth table for xor
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13:22:38 <ehirdiphone> Of course you don't.
13:22:47 <ehirdiphone> It's NANDs all the way down.
13:58:35 <Ilari> Except that XOR has special implementation in CMOS that's simpler than via the basic gates.
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14:19:02 <ehirdiphone> Hmm. NAND and NOR are universal. What other ops?
14:19:41 <ehirdiphone> Not NXOR; that's just equality and (p==q)==(p==q) is (p==q).
14:20:04 <ehirdiphone> well. (p==(p==q)
14:20:13 <ehirdiphone> )
14:20:37 <ehirdiphone> Result for p q(y or n):
14:21:18 <ehirdiphone> n n. n
14:21:36 <ehirdiphone> y n. n
14:21:52 <ehirdiphone> n y. y
14:21:58 <ehirdiphone> y y. y
14:22:31 <ehirdiphone> Too lazy to work out what op that is.
14:23:49 <Deewiant> ehirdiphone: f _ q = q
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14:24:31 <ehirdiphone> Deewiant: Doh >_<
14:24:49 <ehirdiphone> So, NXOR isn't universal.
14:25:06 <ehirdiphone> Deewiant: Btw, you could have also just answered "q" :P
14:25:26 <ehirdiphone> Not as if the parameters ever change.
14:27:12 <Deewiant> Yeah, but I figured that that wouldn't be as easily understood.
14:29:50 <ehirdiphone> p&!q is very boring as a CA and only has one truth value, so I doubt it's universal.
14:30:26 <Deewiant> I'm fairly certain that only NOR and NAND are.
14:30:47 <Deewiant> There's only a limited amount of operators, if there were others we'd know about them.
14:31:17 <Ilari> Then there is two kinds of "unversality": Unversality without having constant logic values and "unversality" with constant logic values.
14:35:27 <ehirdiphone> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_completeness?wasRedirected=true
14:35:33 <ehirdiphone> I guessed as much
14:35:58 <ehirdiphone> My favourite set of functionally completerners is {->, _|_}.
14:36:16 <ehirdiphone> Especially since haskells type system implements it.
14:36:41 <ehirdiphone> -> being -> and _|_ being (forall a. a)
14:36:55 <ehirdiphone> ~p = p -> _|_
14:37:19 <ehirdiphone> Uh, which of ^ V is and?
14:37:26 <ehirdiphone> Forget the order...
14:37:56 <Deewiant> ^
14:38:21 <Deewiant> V is like U for Union
14:39:05 <ehirdiphone> p ^ q = (p -> q -> r) -> r
14:39:34 <ehirdiphone> p V q = (p -> r) -> (q -> r) -> r
14:39:50 <ehirdiphone> And so on.
14:40:37 <ehirdiphone> Although (~~p -> p) is, I think, unprovable. It certainly is in Haskell.
14:41:11 <ehirdiphone> ((a -> forall b. b) -> forall c. c) -> a
14:42:32 <ehirdiphone> There all ~~p is really saying is "(p is unprovable) is unprovable"
14:42:51 <ehirdiphone> Which isn't the same as "p is provable".
14:43:22 <ehirdiphone> I am rambling.
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14:57:44 <soupdragon> it's not p is unprovable
14:57:56 <soupdragon> p implies false
14:59:37 <oerjan> Although (~~p -> p) is, I think, unprovable. It certainly is in Haskell.
14:59:40 <oerjan> argh
14:59:46 <oerjan> <ehirdiphone> Although (~~p -> p) is, I think, unprovable. It certainly is in Haskell.
14:59:51 <soupdragon> I don't know it always makes me sick to think of haskell as a proof system
15:00:17 <oerjan> yes, it's equivalent to the excluded middle, which does not hold in intuitionistic logic
15:02:27 <oerjan> but you can get it if your programming language has continuations
15:04:08 <soupdragon> I never really got that, can it be phrased in terms of delimited continuations?
15:04:39 <soupdragon> I got cwcc : peirce and pretty simple to prove P \/ ~P from it but I hardly understand it
15:04:44 <oerjan> well _I_ never really got delimited continuations :D
15:05:18 <soupdragon> I feel like they are simpler than cwcc
15:05:29 <oerjan> huh.
15:06:04 <soupdragon> the main thing that makes me think this is the interaction with monads
15:06:16 <soupdragon> like AMB in scheme is basically the list monad
15:06:39 <soupdragon> but you can do this direct style notation for monads thanks to delimited continuations in a really methodical way
15:07:55 <soupdragon> so maybe there is something to do with a double negation monad
15:08:00 <oerjan> hm but i recall that actually making a monad for delimited continuations was rather awkward, while it's easy with just ordinary continuations...
15:08:01 <soupdragon> regarding CPS
15:08:19 <soupdragon> I mean writing something like
15:08:47 <soupdragon> rather than add x y = a <- x ; b <- y ; return (a + b)
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15:09:07 <soupdragon> you can do (define (add x y) (+ (x) (y)))
15:09:09 <oerjan> *= do
15:09:52 <oerjan> well that's just strict evaluation...
15:11:35 <oerjan> (awkward above means something like: it needed oleg kiselyov to do it)
15:12:01 <soupdragon> is it (just strict evaluation)
15:12:06 <soupdragon> ?
15:12:15 <oerjan> ok maybe not entirely
15:14:12 <soupdragon> yeah I think there's a link with classical logic because of double negation monad being something to do with reifed continuations
15:14:41 <soupdragon> I'd like to try and make sense of that
15:15:02 <oerjan> negation corresponds to continuation, yeah
15:15:34 <oerjan> and double negating everything in intuitionistic logic turns it into classical
15:16:02 <soupdragon> ¬¬-Monad = record
15:16:02 <soupdragon> { return = contradiction
15:16:02 <soupdragon> ; _>>=_ = λ x f → ¬¬-drop (¬¬-map f x)
15:16:02 <soupdragon> }
15:16:06 <soupdragon> just found that
15:16:32 <soupdragon> but I don't understand this code
15:16:40 <oerjan> well then we are two
15:17:47 <oerjan> i suppose the monad type would have to be something like M a = M ((a -> Void) -> Void)
15:17:50 <soupdragon> how irritating, what the hell is going on in this file
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15:18:48 <oerjan> oh of course that _is_ Cont
15:18:55 <oerjan> (or Cont Void)
15:19:06 <soupdragon> alright so Cont Void ~ double negation
15:19:42 <soupdragon> so you can prove things like LEM inside that monad (because the double negation of any classical tautology is intuitionisticaly provable)
15:19:57 <soupdragon> but what's the computational meaning for these things
15:20:12 <soupdragon> it's something to do with CPS?
15:20:42 <oerjan> yes
15:21:30 <oerjan> instance Monad (Cont r) where return a = Cont ($ a) m >>= k = Cont $ \c -> runCont m $ \a -> runCont (k a) c
15:21:46 <oerjan> darn _now_ it joined the lines
15:22:24 <oerjan> put a semicolon before m >>= k
15:23:40 <oerjan> this doesn't seem to resemble that thing you pasted above much
15:24:13 <soupdragon> mines based on map/join
15:24:23 <soupdragon> they're probably the same if you unfold the definitions
15:25:13 <soupdragon> I don't know if I can read ~~ proofs computationally
15:25:17 <oerjan> oh right there's those ¬¬-drop and ¬¬-map things
15:25:51 <soupdragon> maybe if we rewrite the monadic proofs into direct style (using continuations) then they can be read
15:26:44 <oerjan> well what >>= does is simply continuation passing, really
15:27:08 <soupdragon> I don't know what that is
15:27:17 <oerjan> CPS?
15:27:57 <oerjan> you pass to every computation a function that it will call with the final result when finished
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15:28:23 <soupdragon> alright
15:29:20 <oerjan> this leaves that computation free do do something _other_ than call it at the end, which allows for non-local exits
15:32:28 <oerjan> true weirdness appears when you allow for using a continuation after escaping the code that created it, and you can then even call it more than once... this is necessary for such AMB stuff, i think
15:33:59 <oerjan> (any continuation becomes a non-local exit/return when you use it at any point other than at the end of the computation that first received it)
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15:35:32 <oerjan> actually for that weirdness add /reentering to that...
15:35:33 <ehirdiphone> duck halitosis
15:35:48 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: is there a pun in that?
15:36:28 <ehirdiphone> aorta, a cloud of fury.
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15:37:02 <ehirdiphone> ten pin bowling's pluralistic mother
15:37:34 <ehirdiphone> time travel as tachyon socialism
15:37:57 <ais523> continuations are easier to implement in some languages than others
15:38:20 <ehirdiphone> temperature syzygy
15:38:42 <ais523> I love the word syzygy
15:38:46 <soupdragon> I don't get the computational interpretation of classical proofs
15:38:49 <ais523> it's won me huge numbers of Hangman games
15:38:58 <soupdragon> there opaque to me it is irritating
15:39:15 <ehirdiphone> talcum powder, a ritualistic automotive agent
15:39:23 <ais523> (mostly because the other person gives up in despair when they have -y-y-y with five guesses left)
15:40:34 <ehirdiphone> evil evil twin, with two goatees: cannot birth the regular twin in intuitionistic goateeism
15:41:12 <ehirdiphone> tasers' wet wind
15:41:37 <soupdragon> (\mu \beta.u)v \; \triangleright_c \; \mu \beta.u \left [ [\beta](w v)/[\beta] w \right ]
15:41:43 <soupdragon> whatever that means
15:41:56 <ehirdiphone> traction fire and company
15:42:33 <ehirdiphone> talisman inferiority
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15:44:07 <soupdragon> runCont : ~~p -> p
15:48:37 <oerjan> more or less
15:50:16 <oerjan> hm wait no
15:50:30 <oerjan> it's really runCont : ~~p -> ~~p
15:50:47 <oerjan> it's nothing more than a type wrapper
15:50:54 <oerjan> *unwrapper
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15:52:09 <soupdragon> runCont : ~~p -> p is ridiculous
15:52:32 <soupdragon> imagine trying to run ~~Integer -> Integer
15:52:34 <oerjan> also the meaning of ~ varies. for Cont a it's really (-> a)
15:52:56 <oerjan> (recall Cont takes two type args)
15:53:44 <oerjan> while you could use Void, that would not allow you do get _any_ result out of the monad
15:55:20 <soupdragon> so it is worth just ignoring the computational interpretation of classical proofs?
15:55:45 <soupdragon> if p proves ~~P then you might as well just replace p with a placeholder *
15:56:06 <oerjan> huh?
15:57:34 <oerjan> p -> ~~p holds intuitionistically
15:58:41 <soupdragon> p proves ~~P meaning p : ~~P
15:58:50 <soupdragon> you might as well write * : ~~P
15:58:58 <soupdragon> since looking at p doesn't tell you anything
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15:59:26 <oerjan> is there some difference between p and P here?
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15:59:45 <soupdragon> yes
16:02:06 <oerjan> well what? because saying that p : ~~q implies anything : ~~q is patently false
16:04:01 <oerjan> ~~q is a function that takes a ~q. ~q is a function that takes a q. and if you don't have a q to start with, you cannot pass anything to that ~q, so you cannot construct a ~~q to satisfy it.
16:07:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is ~ here? ¬?
16:07:55 <oerjan> yeah
16:08:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, and the : ?
16:08:20 <AnMaster> is it → for implies
16:08:23 <AnMaster> or what
16:09:11 <oerjan> um almost, but at a different logical level. i think it may be called judgement, but i'm not quite sure
16:09:32 <oerjan> that doesn't make grammatical sense
16:09:39 <AnMaster> no it doesn't
16:09:41 <oerjan> p : ~~q as a whole is a judgement
16:10:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, and what does it mean
16:10:06 <oerjan> or wait is that only for expression : type
16:10:16 <oerjan> (type judgement)
16:10:17 <AnMaster> and what is the truth value table for it
16:10:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: this is _intuitionistic_ logic, no truth table
16:10:49 <oerjan> also, i said it is at a higher level
16:10:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh right, explains why the stuff above made no sense
16:11:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, but wouldn't two ¬ cancel each other out?
16:11:24 <AnMaster> in your ~~q above
16:11:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: not in intuitionistic logic. that's the major difference, in fact
16:11:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is "not not" supposed to mean in that case
16:12:28 <oerjan> ~ = not provable that, is one way of thinking of it
16:12:39 <AnMaster> ah okay
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16:12:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, does it have a classical not as well?
16:12:54 <oerjan> er wait
16:13:02 <oerjan> i'm lying
16:13:11 <AnMaster> oh?
16:13:26 <AnMaster> lucky for you, it is *after* xmas
16:13:27 <AnMaster> ;P
16:13:36 <oerjan> ~p = you can prove a contradiction from p
16:13:53 <AnMaster> I see
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16:16:08 <fizzie> Less than a year until next christmas, I wouldn't be so blase about lying.
16:16:39 <oerjan> well, it was an accident. i swear! oh wait swearing is wrong too. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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16:33:14 <ehirdiphone> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/al84e/all_in_all_there_are_43_quotes_from_lord_of_the/
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16:33:23 <ehirdiphone> One language to rule them all,
16:33:33 <ehirdiphone> one language to find them.
16:33:35 -!- soupdragon has joined.
16:33:41 <ehirdiphone> One language to bring them all,
16:33:51 <ehirdiphone> and in the darkness evaluate them.
16:34:06 <ehirdiphone> Wait. Bind would have worked better, heh.
16:34:28 <ehirdiphone> Seeing as perl is the lovechild oh so many languages.
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17:34:01 <augur> all that is gold does not glitter?
17:34:10 <augur> isnt that the opposite of the saying?
17:34:24 <ais523> no, it's the contrapositive, and therefore is equally true
17:34:25 <AnMaster> augur, of what saying?
17:34:26 <ais523> or equally false
17:34:34 <ais523> AnMaster: "all that glitters is not gold"
17:34:37 <augur> all that glitters is not gold
17:34:38 <ais523> which is just wrong, ofc
17:34:39 <augur> yes
17:34:40 <augur> :|
17:34:44 <augur> its not wrong
17:34:52 <ais523> "not all that glitters is gold" is probably what they /meant/ to say
17:34:56 <AnMaster> ais523 err
17:34:58 <augur> thats what they DID say
17:34:58 <ais523> but it was changed to be a) more poetic, and b) wrong
17:35:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I read the one he wrote as that
17:35:05 <augur> they just have negation scoping higher than quantification
17:35:09 <augur> which is entirely possible, ais523
17:35:11 <AnMaster> instead of what he actually wrote
17:35:12 <AnMaster> XD
17:35:15 <augur> and happens all the time in natural speech
17:35:24 <ais523> augur: no, scope doesn't matter here
17:35:27 <augur> yes it does
17:35:31 <ais523> for "all that glitters is not gold"
17:35:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> no, it's the contrapositive, and therefore is equally true <-- how is it equally true?
17:35:39 <augur> yes it is, ais523
17:35:43 <AnMaster> if one is true the other doesn't have to be
17:35:45 <augur> negation scopes higher than quantification
17:35:53 <ais523> augur: it can't scope backwards in the sentence, though
17:35:57 <augur> "it is not the case that [all that glitters is gold]"
17:36:01 <augur> ais523
17:36:04 <augur> i just said it can
17:36:07 <augur> are you blind
17:36:10 <ais523> no, English doesn't work like that
17:36:14 <augur> yes it does
17:36:17 <augur> for some speakers
17:36:23 <ais523> "I am not hungry" does not mean "something other than me is hungry"
17:36:24 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:36:29 <AnMaster> oh I see what you two mean
17:36:33 <augur> no you're reading it wrong, ais
17:36:38 <augur> the negation isnt negating "all"
17:36:41 <augur> its negating the whole sentence
17:36:47 <AnMaster> my reply to this:
17:36:47 <augur> "it is not the case that [all that glitters is gold]"
17:36:52 <AnMaster> English is not a precise language
17:37:03 <AnMaster> if you wanted that, use predicate loging or something
17:37:03 <augur> english is precise, its just ambiguous.
17:37:28 <AnMaster> augur, I think I meant precise in a different meaning here ;P
17:37:32 <augur> ais523: whether YOU can get the reading or not is irrelevant (i cant get it either)
17:37:51 <augur> negation scoping higher than quantification is a well established phenomena of certain dialects of english
17:37:54 <AnMaster> <ais523> augur: it can't scope backwards in the sentence, though <-- postfix notation?
17:38:10 <ais523> AnMaster: more like infix notation for unary operators, is the interpretation that augur's trying to come up with
17:38:18 <augur> im not TRYING to come up with anything
17:38:23 <augur> its a valid reading
17:38:24 <augur> also, ais523, for the record
17:38:32 <AnMaster> ais523, XD
17:38:34 <augur> "I'm not hungry" can mean "someone other than me is hungry" with appropriate stress
17:38:44 <AnMaster> ais523, intercal should have unary infix operators
17:38:46 <augur> "No dude, _I_'m not hungry"
17:38:48 <AnMaster> if it doesn't already
17:38:55 <augur> which implies quite clearly, "HE's hungry"
17:39:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it does already
17:39:08 <AnMaster> ais523, which one(s)?
17:39:13 <ais523> all of them
17:39:24 <AnMaster> how are they infix?
17:39:27 <ais523> in fact, INTERCAL-72 allowed no positions other than infix for unary operators
17:39:36 <ais523> and they're infix in that they have to be written one character after the start of what they modify
17:39:41 <ais523> e.g. .1 is a onespot variable
17:39:47 <ais523> .?1 is the xor of a onespot variable
17:39:50 <AnMaster> ah
17:39:51 <AnMaster> right
17:39:52 <augur> ais523, if you want me to try to find some papers on the topic for you i will
17:39:54 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:41:21 <augur> negation scope is notoriously wonky in english
17:41:38 <zzo38> But, can't you use prefix if the value to deal with is "" and '' like ?!?1' and stuff like that
17:42:00 <zzo38> Negation is all wrong in English, that is why it is never clearly
17:42:16 <ais523> zzo38: recent versions of INTERCAL allow prefix operators too
17:42:23 <ais523> up to one infix, and any number of prefix, unary operators
17:42:27 <augur> zzo38: negation isnt _wrong_ in english, its just that the words can do lots of different things
17:42:34 <augur> its fairly well behaved, however
17:42:41 <augur> its just not well behaved like most people think it is
17:42:43 <ais523> and there are precedence rules to determine whether an operator counts as infix or prefix in expressions like '?.3~.4'
17:43:20 <ais523> (infix in that case, I think)
17:43:24 <zzo38> I thought one of the goals of INTERCAL was to have no precedence
17:43:30 <ais523> it has no operator precedence
17:43:41 <ais523> that isn't operator precedence, though, as it works the same way regardless of which operator you use
17:43:48 <zzo38> OK
17:43:50 <ais523> it's positional precedence
17:44:04 <augur> ais523: do you want me to find you some papers?
17:44:17 <ais523> not particularly
17:44:20 <augur> ok
17:44:39 <augur> well then trust me on this, negation can scope higher than the negation in some dialects of english.
17:44:58 <augur> er
17:45:01 <augur> higher than quantification*
17:45:09 <augur> higher than subject quantification, specifically.
17:45:14 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
17:45:26 <ais523> ooh, assuming ehird's been reading logs, this could be fun
17:45:31 <ais523> he's clearly here to settle arguments
17:45:36 <ehirdiphone> 200m.fi fucking Finns are getting 200Mb/s web
17:45:40 <ehirdiphone> ais523: About?
17:45:52 <ais523> ehirdiphone: "all that glitters is not gold"
17:45:59 <ehirdiphone> Not web, Internet
17:46:00 <augur> ehirdiphone: whether or not some dialects of english can have sentential negation scoping higher than subject quantification
17:46:17 <zzo38> But even gold can glitter?
17:46:17 <ais523> augur: more to the point is whether the scoping can stretch backwards
17:46:19 <ehirdiphone> ais523: What about it?
17:46:21 <ais523> it's not a precedence issue
17:46:24 <ais523> ehirdiphone: how to parse it
17:46:33 <ais523> augur's trying to parse it as "not (all that glitters is gold)"
17:46:38 <augur> no, im not
17:46:42 <ais523> yes you are
17:46:44 <ehirdiphone> not all that glitters is gold
17:46:44 <augur> im saying that SOME people can
17:46:48 <ehirdiphone> That was easy
17:47:00 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I agree with your sentence, but claim it's different from the original sentence
17:47:02 <zzo38> If you mean "not all that glitters is gold", then that is what you should write.
17:47:32 <ehirdiphone> ais523: I hereby slander you a prescriptivist.
17:47:38 <ehirdiphone> And a commie!
17:47:41 <augur> ais523 just doesnt accept the fact that SOME people can say "its not the case that everything that glitters is gold" as "all that glitters is not gold"
17:47:56 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: Poetic license. This is Tolkein
17:48:01 <ais523> hmm... isn't "I hereby slander" a contradiction in of itself?
17:48:03 <augur> ais523, would you like me to provide for you a completely coherent compositional semantics for this sentence IN HASKELL-ISH?
17:48:05 <ehirdiphone> He can write however he damn likes
17:48:07 <augur> well, in lambda-calculus
17:48:10 <ais523> given that a slander is only slander if it's false?
17:48:15 <zzo38> OK, I guess if you want to write poetry, you can write it however you want
17:48:35 <augur> zzo38: its not that its poetry
17:48:37 <augur> for fucks sake
17:48:39 <augur> are you listening
17:48:46 <augur> its common in many dialects of english
17:49:07 <augur> and poetry is not a dialect of english
17:49:15 <augur> i mean dialects real people speak in their everyday lives
17:49:19 <ehirdiphone> augur: Stop being an asshole
17:49:23 <ais523> hmm, I think I prefer Latin
17:49:27 <ehirdiphone> You're wildly overreacting
17:49:33 <zzo38> If it isn't poetry, you should probably write what you meant. I mean, there can be dialect but sometimes it is unclear, that is what I mean
17:49:37 <augur> latin has its issues as well, ais523
17:49:41 <ais523> where you could pretty much anagram a sentence, and have it mean the same thing, if it wasn't full of subordinate clauses or something like that
17:49:41 <augur> zzo38: they did write what they meant!
17:49:44 <ais523> it does have issues too
17:49:59 <augur> and in latin, word order isnt as free as you think
17:50:13 <augur> there are constraints on pronominal binding as well as on focus
17:50:23 <ais523> oh, I treat the focus as being an anticonstraint
17:50:33 <augur> focus changes meaning
17:50:33 <ehirdiphone> Can I do a nonsequitur and somehow make an argument based on the fact that Tolkein was a racist?
17:50:34 <ais523> as in, focus-last is a rule that can exist precisely /because/ you can reorder the sentence
17:50:35 <augur> well, implied meaning
17:50:54 <augur> sure, this is true, ais523
17:51:06 <augur> but reordering _requires_ focus changes
17:51:10 <ais523> and I agree about the pronoun thing, although it doesn't come up very often; but that only happens in more complex sentences
17:51:20 <zzo38> So, if you write "This is not a real sentence" and "Real this not is sentence a" then you might understand a bit, even though it is messy, but sometimes it becomes less clearly because it becomes wrongly
17:51:39 <augur> zzo38: whats your point
17:51:40 <zzo38> But, of course, "Real this not is sentence a" is not even as sensible as most things
17:51:46 <ais523> yep, in latin it works better because each word is tagged with where in the sentence it belongs
17:51:49 <augur> its not a grammatical sentence of any dialect of english
17:52:05 <augur> whereas "all that glitters is not gold" _is_ a grammatical sentence of almost every dialect of english
17:52:15 <augur> the question here is not grammaticality but meaning
17:52:24 <zzo38> Yes, it is, but that is not entirely my point
17:52:26 <ais523> augur: not really, it's sort-of a polyglot
17:52:27 <augur> for YOU, the "not" cannot be higher than "all that glitters"
17:52:39 <augur> but for a large number of people it CAN
17:52:45 <augur> because they speak a different dialect of english
17:52:46 <ais523> just like you can treat "this is nt a sentence" as either misspelt english or gramattically correct brainfuck
17:52:51 <ais523> *grammatically
17:53:02 <zzo38> Polyglot, I guess that is a bit of sensible, a bit...
17:53:03 <ehirdiphone> ais523: If everyone parses English a certain way it is correct.
17:53:14 <ais523> ehirdiphone: ok, I agree with that
17:53:30 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if that's relevant here, given that there's obviously a disagreement, though
17:53:37 <augur> ais523, zzo38, would you like me to give you a completely compositional derivation for the odd reading?
17:53:40 <augur> in LAMBDA CALCULUs
17:53:45 <ehirdiphone> Only you seem to disagree with the padding of it; even then you understood it. Your objection was entirely prescriptivist in nature.
17:53:47 <zzo38> But of course your misspelt English sentence has no effect or meaning in brainfuck even though it is gramatically correct (it doesn't have mismatched [])
17:53:48 <augur> to prove to you that its theoretically possible at least
17:53:55 <ehirdiphone> Parsing not padding
17:54:04 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Therefore, you're wrong. M
17:54:06 <augur> ehirdiphone: its not even a matter of parsing
17:54:08 <ais523> ehirdiphone: not really; I know what the idiom is meant to mean
17:54:10 <ehirdiphone> / M/d
17:54:17 <augur> structurally speaking the "not" is BELOW the subject of the sentence
17:54:18 <ais523> but it disagrees with the normal parsing rules for every other sentence
17:54:34 <augur> but sentence structure is not sentence meaning
17:54:36 <soupdragon> ;`(
17:54:36 <ais523> so I think that what it actually means is different from what it traditionally means
17:54:43 <augur> inverse scopes are ABOUND in STANDARD english
17:54:49 <ehirdiphone> English, not being neat and exceptionless?
17:54:58 <ehirdiphone> OH GOD MY WORLD IS SHAKEN
17:55:03 <ais523> an exception for /one sentence/?
17:55:09 <augur> ais523: its not ONE SENTENCE
17:55:10 <ehirdiphone> All that is not shaken is not my world.
17:55:12 <ais523> how could anyone know it existed without being taught?
17:55:15 <augur> its not an EXCEPTION
17:55:17 <zzo38> English language is full of exceptions and stuff like that, for letters, words, sounds, sentences, paragraphics, etc
17:55:33 <ais523> augur: it is an exception
17:55:35 <augur> its completely well behaved IN THE DIALECTS WHERE ITS ACCEPTED
17:55:37 <zzo38> Actually I think it is exception
17:55:38 <augur> no its NOT
17:55:45 <augur> its just a DIFFERENT DIALECT
17:55:55 <augur> and IN THAT DIALECT its completely standard for ALL negation to behave this way
17:56:09 <ais523> you mean, there are dialects where (for all x. !f(x)) is inexpressible?
17:56:12 <zzo38> OK, then, it a different dialect. That means, you have to understand what dialect you mean
17:56:37 <augur> ais523: what
17:56:45 <zzo38> Unless you are consistent, which it isn't.
17:56:53 <augur> zzo38: what
17:57:28 <augur> look, why dont i just give you a fucking compositional semantics for this sentence ok? itll demonstrate that theres nothing crazy going on here
17:57:30 <ais523> augur: if "all that glitters is not gold" in some dialect means "not all that glitters is gold" in ais523ese, how do you express the ais523ese "all that glitters is not a black hole" in that dialect?
17:57:31 <soupdragon> if augur wasn't an asshole he would be so cool
17:57:32 <augur> its completely trivial
17:57:40 <ais523> augur: you're trying to answer a different argument from the one I'm making
17:57:45 <augur> ais523: same way, its just ambiguous.
17:58:00 <ais523> that is such a great answer
17:58:09 <augur> thats THE answer
17:58:16 <augur> its the FACT of the matter
17:58:22 <augur> language is ambiguous, get used to it
17:58:22 <zzo38> Do you understand how to fix this template, I fixed it already but it is still broken, I don't know all of the wrong things http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Template:3.5e_Feat
17:59:07 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: augur just assumes (a) he is never wrong, (b) everyone understands and is interested in the details of linguistics, (c) using caps makes more people listen to him
17:59:33 <ehirdiphone> (d) making mocking strawmen of his opponents helps (thanks for reminding me just now augur)
17:59:43 <soupdragon> ehirdiphone it just makes me wince when people I can't stand study the same stuff im into
17:59:44 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I actually had to look up and read his sentences after you said that
17:59:47 <augur> no ehird, i just assume that ais523 would make more of an argument than NO ITS BAD ENGLISH IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE
17:59:49 <ais523> my brain filtered out the lines in allcaps
17:59:57 <zzo38> At least these sentences are generally less confusing than some other ambiguous sentences, they are also less confusing when used in contents, isn't it?
18:00:03 <ehirdiphone> ais523: ditto
18:00:08 <zzo38> s/contents/contexts/
18:00:12 <soupdragon> ehirdiphone it's like being allergic to chocolate or something :(
18:00:49 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Become a masochist!
18:00:56 <augur> ehirdiphone: i offered him numerous times to find papers on the very topic of inverse negation scope
18:01:02 <ais523> I'm intolerant (like allergic, but with slightly different symptoms and less fatal if I eat them by mistake) to all sorts of food that people recommend
18:01:04 <ehirdiphone> Then chocolate will be TWICE as enjoyable!
18:01:06 <ais523> although not chocolate
18:01:14 <ehirdiphone> augur: You know he can't read those papers
18:01:21 <augur> i also offered numerous times to show how its not illogical, nor does it require WEIRD parsing
18:01:27 <ehirdiphone> You know he doesn't give a shit about Reading them
18:01:29 <augur> using lambda calculus
18:01:40 <augur> lambda calculus!
18:01:45 <ais523> augur: translating english to lambda calculus generally requires reordering the sentence anyway
18:01:50 <ehirdiphone> You just always want an opportunity to say
18:01:55 <ais523> so therefore you wouldn't actually be making a point at all
18:01:59 <ehirdiphone> Look at me. I know linguistics
18:02:06 <augur> ais523: listen to me ok
18:02:07 <ehirdiphone> We have NOTATION for things
18:02:15 <augur> the grammatical structure of a sentence is not the same as the meaning of a sentence
18:02:21 <ehirdiphone> Allow me to explain it to you!
18:02:29 <augur> words can be in places that dont correspond to their meanings
18:02:43 <soupdragon> rationally, I know it's /my/ problem - but it really seems like other people are causing it
18:02:56 <augur> _all_ language is like this
18:02:59 <ais523> ehirdiphone: gah, took me a few sentences to parse what you meant, I didn't realize immediately you'd elided quote marks
18:03:04 <ais523> and got the use/mention mixed up
18:03:25 <ehirdiphone> """""""
18:03:32 <ais523> um, I think that's better, possibly
18:03:34 <augur> any sentence with two quantifiers is going to have these issues, ais523
18:03:37 <ehirdiphone> I hope this is a sufficient amount of quote marks. L
18:03:42 <ehirdiphone> / L/d
18:03:44 <augur> and there are some sentences where you cannot avoid using inverse scope
18:03:53 <ais523> ehirdiphone: you just deleted your entire line
18:04:03 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Not in Sam.
18:04:10 <ais523> oh, assumed it was a sed script
18:04:18 <augur> language is not logic
18:04:27 <ehirdiphone> Nope. Sam's language is ed-derived.
18:04:47 <zzo38> But we still understand what was meant by / L/d even if it is incorrect, I guess, even like English languages and stuff too, but sometimes it can be unclear and/or confusing
18:04:49 <ehirdiphone> But it is based on arbitrary regions, not lines.
18:05:12 <augur> zzo38: the sentence in question IS correct tho
18:05:14 <ais523> zzo38: I try not to make assumptions in this channel, it's often a bad idea
18:05:19 <augur> just not in our dialects
18:05:39 <ais523> it's not beyond the realm of possibility that ehird might want to delete an entire line of his own
18:05:56 <ais523> (I'm also vaguely wondering how that typo happened, it isn't a very plausible one...)
18:06:03 <ehirdiphone> I am secretly a 40 year old horse pedophile.
18:06:06 <ehirdiphone> d d d d d
18:06:09 <ehirdiphone> D!!!!
18:06:14 <soupdragon> not any more
18:06:26 <soupdragon> we all know you like shetland ponis
18:06:26 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Iphone keyboard. Send is in bottom right
18:06:34 <ehirdiphone> So m and l are above it
18:06:41 <ais523> ehirdiphone: aha, and is it otherwise qwertyish?
18:06:43 <ehirdiphone> Well
18:06:47 <ais523> that would explain a lot
18:06:47 <zzo38> augut: Well, it must be a different dialect then, like you said at first, maybe
18:06:50 <ehirdiphone> M is above send
18:06:56 <ehirdiphone> L is above backspace.
18:07:03 <ehirdiphone> Space space inputs ". "
18:07:13 <zzo38> But just because something is a different dialect, sometimes it can still be confusing, sometimes it is less confused
18:07:14 <ehirdiphone> So I try to remove the last space
18:07:22 <ehirdiphone> But miss and send
18:07:33 <ehirdiphone> ais523: yes, it's qwerty for the letters
18:07:48 <augur> well it IS confusing zzo38, im not saying its not
18:07:56 <augur> but its confusing because its not OUR dialect
18:08:04 <zzo38> augur: Yes.
18:08:22 <ehirdiphone> I never thought I'd be considering using Slackware...
18:08:25 <zzo38> Dialect is part of it, anyways
18:08:39 <ehirdiphone> It's so... unehirdesque.
18:08:42 <ais523> ehirdiphone: why are you considering using Slackware?
18:08:54 -!- Asztal has joined.
18:08:59 <ais523> you're one of the few people I have put down in my brain as "opinions impossible to guess"
18:09:05 <ais523> which is probably a good thing
18:09:08 <ais523> so I'm genuinely curious
18:09:43 <soupdragon> im a bit jelous of that
18:10:07 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Why not? Slackware seems to meet some criteria I'm searching Linuxspace for: simple, lightweight, unobtrusive. Longterm my own distro is of course preferable.
18:10:30 <ehirdiphone> Arch and Debian sid are the other main contenders.
18:10:42 <ehirdiphone> Also, my opinions are unpredictable? Huh.
18:10:49 <ehirdiphone> Often changing, yes.
18:10:59 <ehirdiphone> But unpredictable in general?
18:11:11 <ais523> maybe I'm just not very good at predicting
18:11:29 <ais523> for instance, I know quite a bit about which fonts you like and dislike, but don't know, say, whether you'd like Deja Vu Sans mono or not
18:11:32 <ais523> *Sans Mono
18:11:45 <ehirdiphone> It's not a bad font.
18:12:13 <ais523> heh, I actually guessed correctly
18:12:20 <ehirdiphone> The best of the DejaVu family, probably. Serif is ugly because it's thin and fat.
18:12:27 <soupdragon> ehird sorry to interrupt you
18:12:28 <ehirdiphone> Sans is just really meh.
18:12:34 <soupdragon> why the hell are you IRCing from a phone??
18:12:43 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Why not?
18:12:50 <soupdragon> because that must suck ?
18:13:15 <soupdragon> compared to a normal computer
18:13:24 <ehirdiphone> I have a good enough keyboard, a nice screen, nick autocompletion and an alright browser.
18:13:32 <ehirdiphone> It's fairly ok.
18:13:35 <soupdragon> okay
18:13:48 <ais523> major issue is that you can't use IRC and the browser at the same time, presumably?
18:13:55 <fizzie> I am, in fact, IRCing from a phone too.
18:13:57 <ehirdiphone> Correcting my typing errors is the main annoying part.
18:14:24 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Colloquy has an uberhack: it embeds its own WebKit shell
18:14:34 <ais523> hmm... what do you call a computer that was clearly originally intended to be a netbook, but then given 3GB of memory so it could run windows 7?
18:14:39 <ehirdiphone> basically a mini safari
18:14:39 <ais523> ehirdiphone: heh
18:14:45 <ais523> that's what I have
18:14:46 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Not surprising that you like Slackware...
18:14:54 <fizzie> (Mostly because I'm a bit sickly at the moment and am trying to rest in bed.)
18:14:59 <ais523> (note: 3GB probably isn't actually enough, the one on display in the shop was showing out-of-memory errors)
18:15:10 <ehirdiphone> ais523: £300 at PC Worldbook?
18:15:18 <ais523> £400
18:15:20 <pikhq> It is one of the few distros that tries to do as little as is sane.
18:15:23 <ehirdiphone> Ripoff
18:15:34 <ais523> yes, they were gouging everyone as it was christmas and a new version of windows was out
18:15:41 <ais523> but everyone else was doing the same, for the same reason
18:15:49 <ais523> the adverts were hilarious: "windows 7 is out, time for a new PC"
18:15:52 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: My main misgiving is the, ahem, minimal package manager.
18:16:06 <ais523> it was actually literally that, except for the comma which was replaced by a line break, and the capitalisation
18:16:11 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Yeah, that is pretty much *the* problem with it.
18:16:21 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("co'o rodo").
18:16:52 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Does it actually *have* an uninstall program?
18:17:12 <ais523> ugh, I'm getting CPAN flashbacks
18:17:48 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Slackware doesn't chase dependencies for you. Now THAT would make CPAN hell.
18:18:25 <ais523> what do you mean by "chase dependencies"?
18:18:34 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
18:18:45 <ais523> CPAN effectively runs itself recursively to install dependencies, just with lots of yes/no prompts
18:18:54 <ehirdiphone> If you have an unsatisfied dependency, Slackware just barfs.
18:19:12 <ais523> doesn't that cause dependency hell, just manually?
18:19:13 <ehirdiphone> You have to download and install dependencies one by one.
18:20:00 <ais523> I thought that was the definition of dependency hel
18:20:05 <ais523> *hell
18:20:09 <ehirdiphone> Amusingly if you use static linking, most packages have basically no dependencies.
18:20:34 <ehirdiphone> /usr/share sorta dependencies, sure. Commands they call too.
18:20:40 <ehirdiphone> But not a single library.
18:21:17 <ais523> ick on some cc?
18:21:27 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Yes.
18:21:40 <ais523> I suppose it doesn't use debian-style nethack-common, nethack-tty, nethack-x11 packaging then
18:22:12 -!- ehirdiphone_ has joined.
18:22:12 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:22:15 -!- ehirdiphone_ has changed nick to ehirdiphone.
18:22:30 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Slackware isn't atarically linked
18:22:33 <ehirdiphone> Atarically
18:22:34 <pikhq> ais523: Slackware tends to just do ./configure&&make&&make PREFIX=dir install&&tar -cf package.tar dir
18:22:36 <ehirdiphone> Ffg
18:22:44 <ehirdiphone> I was just mentioning
18:22:59 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Yhere is SOME pkg metadata.,.
18:23:00 <pikhq> Patch only for bugs.
18:23:02 <ehirdiphone> ...
18:23:05 <ehirdiphone> There
18:23:08 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Yes, it's a file in the tarball.
18:23:11 <ais523> wtf is ataric linking?
18:23:18 <pikhq> ais523: Static.
18:23:35 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: They use .txz nowadays
18:23:42 <ehirdiphone> Since the latest release
18:23:46 <ehirdiphone> Not tgzs
18:23:50 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Right.
18:23:57 <pikhq> Same format, different compression.
18:26:30 <soupdragon> I need fixed
18:27:28 <ehirdiphone> Okay, you CAN uninstall with Slackware
18:27:30 <ehirdiphone> And
18:27:36 <ehirdiphone> "As of Slackware 12.2, slackpkg has been added as the official remote package manager."
18:27:56 <ehirdiphone> But it seems to just do download+install and search
18:28:05 <ehirdiphone> No dependency chasing
18:28:17 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: You need... Fixed?
18:28:30 <soupdragon> yeah
18:28:38 <ehirdiphone> wat
18:31:33 <soupdragon> like I can't stand augur because he's so fucking nasty to me
18:31:53 <soupdragon> but logically, the best thing would be to just forget about that and not care
18:32:38 -!- zzo38_ has joined.
18:32:40 -!- zzo38_ has changed nick to zzo38.
18:36:24 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: well sure a perfectly rational agent would have no emotions
18:36:45 <ehirdiphone> but purely rational agents also never have different opinions, long term
18:36:54 <ehirdiphone> pretty boring really
18:37:26 <pikhq> The Slackware package building method is kinda nice. It's called "shell script".
18:37:30 <ehirdiphone> I'm pretty sure it's impossible to totally let anything just bounce off you, emotionally
18:37:35 <augur> ehirdiphone: hes just mistaken. ive never even spoken to him
18:37:59 <ehirdiphone> augur: Im sure you've spoken to fax/quantum_ed.
18:38:04 <augur> who
18:38:24 -!- zzo38 has quit ("In Soviet Russia, sentence says YOU!!!").
18:38:25 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon.
18:38:35 <augur> im not sure!
18:38:43 <augur> i dont really talk in here much
18:38:43 <ehirdiphone> Anyway he never said anything about you talking to him.
18:38:52 <augur> he said i was nasty to him! :|
18:38:57 <ehirdiphone> No.
18:39:06 <augur> uh
18:39:08 <augur> yes?
18:39:09 <ehirdiphone> He said that to him, you are nasty.
18:39:22 <ehirdiphone> At least that is how I parsed it.
18:39:28 <augur> D:
18:39:32 <augur> DAMN YOU AMBIGUITY
18:39:51 <augur> do you watch Qi?
18:39:58 <augur> er, sorry, buzzcocks rather
18:40:20 <ehirdiphone> Those British comedy quizzes. All alike!
18:40:32 <augur> no its just that i spend all of yesterday watching both
18:40:42 <augur> and the reason i bring buzzcocks up is david tennant
18:40:47 <augur> who was also in a recent ep of Qi
18:41:27 <ehirdiphone> I aw typing upside down.
18:41:33 <augur> partially!
18:42:34 <ehirdiphone> Fucking W
18:42:35 <AnMaster> <augur> i dont really talk in here much <-- really? you seemed pretty active recently
18:42:41 <augur> recently!
18:42:44 <augur> like, last few days.
18:43:06 <ehirdiphone> Fhaitstieyisjgjwtijgwgjgktssgksgkssooye
18:43:56 <ehirdiphone> One dislikeable thing about Slackware is the lack of netinstall.
18:44:16 <ehirdiphone> Instead it's a DVD or 73.458063 CDs.
18:44:17 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, was that Fhait... a cry of desperation?
18:44:32 <ehirdiphone> Guisitoywitwtihcugrsypfypftid, Hoyle. Godgoto.
18:44:33 <pikhq> Presumably you could create a netinstall.
18:44:43 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, btw what is your general opinon on "compile your own kernel" thing
18:44:44 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: And a pony.
18:44:47 <pikhq> Get slackpkg and dependencies.
18:44:51 * AnMaster imagines ehirdiphone would hate that
18:44:54 <pikhq> Install stuff.
18:45:18 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Usually pointless.
18:46:10 <ehirdiphone> Most people do it to lengthen their epenis by three inches and bask in the 5ms a day they save vs the 5 years they put into it in total.
18:46:21 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well in my case.. two things: 1) cut startup time from 35 seconds to 17.2 seconds. Mostly due to no longer needing initramfs and less modules needed to be modprobed. 2) I needed to patch to work around a regression for my hardware
18:46:30 <AnMaster> sadly upstream is not very interested in fixing that bug it seems
18:46:34 <ehirdiphone> But, omg, it's 3KiB smaller!!!!
18:46:46 <ehirdiphone> 17.2 seconds. Hah.
18:47:01 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, that is from init to login prompt
18:47:09 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, measured with bootchart
18:47:12 <ehirdiphone> Hahahahah.
18:47:22 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, for an old sempron it isn't too bad
18:47:22 <AnMaster> :P
18:48:04 <ehirdiphone> I'm relatively confident my distro will go from just after bootloader to X login in 7 seconds with disk. 13, absolute max.
18:48:10 <ehirdiphone> 5, minimum.
18:48:30 <ehirdiphone> With SSD, 3-7 seconds. Probably 4-5.
18:48:30 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, good luck, since 8 of those seconds are taken up for me with waiting for dhcp reply
18:48:44 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Parallel init.
18:49:03 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, mine is parallel, but i need network up early on
18:49:20 <ehirdiphone> You'll be typing your password, and your WM starting, while DHCP goes.
18:49:24 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, and sure if i started everything after mounting file systems in background I could do 5 seconds
18:49:29 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, wm? sorry?
18:49:33 <AnMaster> what has it got to do with things
18:49:34 <ehirdiphone> (Everything else will be finished.)
18:49:47 * AnMaster uses startx manually due to often not starting X at all
18:51:02 <ehirdiphone> Talking to you is infuriating. A constant battle where the only weapon of your opponent is pretending to not understand so they can flount how elite and minimalist and hardcore hacker they are.
18:51:17 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, didn't intend tha
18:51:20 <AnMaster> that*
18:51:30 <AnMaster> just pointing out my measure is to the text login
18:51:36 <AnMaster> not to kdm or gdm or such
18:51:39 <ehirdiphone> So you do it all the time unintentionally?
18:51:52 <ehirdiphone> My sincere condolences for your ailment.
18:52:06 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, all time is an unfounded generalisation
18:52:11 <AnMaster> I was talking about this convo
18:52:40 <ehirdiphone> Au contrarie it's perfectly founded to me
18:52:43 <ehirdiphone> Anyhow
18:52:52 <ehirdiphone> This is boring
18:52:54 <AnMaster> anyway arch linux init system is crude.
18:53:00 <ehirdiphone> Who boots up anyway
18:53:21 <AnMaster> parralell in part, but rather limited in what you can do
18:53:28 <ehirdiphone> It's an irrelevant stat. Anyone who isn't anmaster just uses suspend.
18:53:33 <AnMaster> it doesn't do dependency stuff for once. It's up to the user
18:53:35 <ehirdiphone> Okay, maybe ais523 too.
18:53:46 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: I just leave the system on.
18:53:48 <ais523> yes, I boot
18:54:03 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, my system is generally on 24/7 for my desktop
18:54:21 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Why? Slow suspend times?
18:54:31 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, but interesting thing is that suspend takes way longer than shut down on my laptop. Which isn't a good thing when you are in a hurry to leave
18:54:38 <AnMaster> resume is faster than boot though
18:54:48 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Nah, just don't bother suspending.
18:54:55 <ehirdiphone> I'll probably include TuxOnIce in my distro for fast suspend/wake.
18:55:12 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what does it do differently from "stock" kernel
18:55:16 <AnMaster> when suspending I mena
18:55:17 <AnMaster> mean*
18:55:31 <ehirdiphone> Everything. It's an entire replacement suspension system.
18:55:45 <AnMaster> so why hasn't it gone upstream?
18:55:55 <ehirdiphone> Dunno.
18:56:16 <fizzie> I've been shutting the desktop down nowadays; saving the planet, you know. I don't want them to come jail me for melting the ice caps, after all.
18:56:21 <AnMaster> http://www.tuxonice.net/ <-- this looks so 1999 or so
18:56:27 <ehirdiphone> BFS should be upstream too but it isn't
18:56:34 <soupdragon> I don't get it you are meant to be able to download Vernor Vinge - Rainbows End but I can't fucking find the fucking link
18:56:34 <AnMaster> apart from the "flash blocked" bit
18:56:37 <AnMaster> but the design
18:56:39 <ehirdiphone> fizzie: Suspend to ram uses like 1W
18:56:56 <AnMaster> an unreadablely drark shadow
18:56:59 <AnMaster> and*
18:57:19 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, BFS?
18:57:48 <AnMaster> <soupdragon> I don't get it you are meant to be able to download Vernor Vinge - Rainbows End but I can't fucking find the fucking link <-- is that an esolang?
18:57:48 <ehirdiphone> Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler.
18:58:01 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I don't believe you
18:58:02 <fizzie> ehirdiphone: Yes, and fails to wake up on approximately every twelth time on my system, requiring a hard reset; haven't been interested enough to try finding a fix.
18:58:04 <soupdragon> it's a book :(
18:58:10 <soupdragon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End
18:58:10 <ehirdiphone> Fair, guaranteed low latency scheduler for desktop use.
18:58:11 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I assume it is a file system?
18:58:14 <soupdragon> im trying to downloard this
18:58:17 <AnMaster> oh scheduler
18:58:24 <soupdragon> but the blog links to another blog which doesn't have the god damn link
18:58:28 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, CFS seems quite good to me
18:58:31 <ehirdiphone> Don't believe me? What?
18:58:32 <AnMaster> never had any issues with it
18:58:39 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what?
18:58:43 <augur> i have a copy of that book
18:58:56 <augur> havent read it tho
18:59:00 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, who don't belive who about what?
18:59:01 <ehirdiphone> AnMasterehirdiphone, I don't believe you
18:59:12 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler.
18:59:12 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I don't believe you
18:59:15 <augur> soupdragon, check gigapedia.com
18:59:16 <AnMaster> brain fuck scheduler ;P
18:59:16 <ehirdiphone> You said you don't believe me
18:59:19 <AnMaster> for bfs
18:59:21 <AnMaster> indeed
18:59:26 <ehirdiphone> I said that afterwards
18:59:34 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, also: "<ehirdiphone> AnMasterehirdiphone, I don't believe you" <-- copy failure!
18:59:46 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, no?
18:59:52 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what are you talking about
18:59:57 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, BFS?
18:59:59 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler.
19:00:02 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I don't believe you
19:00:07 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I assume it is a file system?
19:00:09 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Fair, guaranteed low latency scheduler for desktop use.
19:00:12 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> oh scheduler
19:00:20 <AnMaster> [cut out lines related to other discussions]
19:00:25 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I fail to see any issues there
19:01:32 <ehirdiphone> Anyway, BFS has guaranteed low latency, soft realtime scheduling not restricted to root, and has near optimal CPU usage on a desktop: -j(cores) is the optimal strategy. It turns out higher numbers performing better is because other schedulers are inefficient for desktop (not high spec clusters etc) machines.
19:01:43 <soupdragon> is this a parody of something from the book http://www.seekrainbowsend.com/
19:01:48 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, sounds nice.
19:02:09 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info").
19:02:12 <soupdragon> "Vernor Vinge has put the entire text of his magnificent, prescient, mind-alteringly good novel Rainbows End online as a free download"
19:02:22 <soupdragon> good for him but what's the URL??
19:02:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, can you make sense of that "<ehirdiphone> I said that afterwards"
19:02:32 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
19:02:34 <ehirdiphone> What did I miss after "sounds nice"?
19:02:46 <augur> ok guys, im off. ill be back in an hour maybe
19:02:47 <AnMaster> * ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info")
19:02:47 <AnMaster> <soupdragon> "Vernor Vinge has put the entire text of his magnificent, prescient, mind-alteringly good novel Rainbows End online as a free download"
19:02:47 <AnMaster> <soupdragon> good for him but what's the URL??
19:02:47 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> fizzie, can you make sense of that "<ehirdiphone> I said that afterwards"
19:02:51 <AnMaster> * ehirdiphone (n=ehirdiph@ has joined #esoteric
19:02:55 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, that
19:03:16 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, no "are you sure you want to quit" dialog I guess ;P
19:03:20 <ehirdiphone> I just misread the logs STFU about "said afterwards" >_<
19:03:33 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, oh right. That explains it :)
19:03:58 <fizzie> AnMasterehirdiphone, some sort of merged super-creature composed of AnMaster, ehird, and an iPhone linking them together.
19:04:16 <ehirdiphone> fizzie: The quantum foam of nightmares.
19:04:30 <ehirdiphone> Allow me to quote you.
19:04:32 <ehirdiphone> fizzieAnMasterehirdiphone, some sort of merged super-creature composed of AnMaster, ehird, and an iPhone linking them together.
19:04:35 <ehirdiphone> OH GOD
19:04:46 <ehirdiphone> It's... It's GROWING!
19:05:20 <soupdragon> http://www.boingboing.net/2007/11/28/vinges-brilliant-rai.html
19:05:25 <fizzie> It's like that... that ball thing that collects crap it runs over of.
19:05:27 <soupdragon> anyone able to figure this out?
19:05:28 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, it seems like quite a bug in that software to not insert any delimiter there
19:05:32 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: did you read the ed stories
19:05:35 <soupdragon> I can't see the big red button
19:05:42 <soupdragon> ehirdiphone a couple of chapters
19:05:48 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: it's only on copy paste
19:05:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, cat nightmare?
19:06:02 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: It gets much, much better
19:06:35 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: around Be Here Now. After that the entire rest is one big plotline
19:06:39 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, hm, iirc xchat defaults to inserting <> in copied strings if they are not displayed. You edit a format string or something iirc
19:06:47 * AnMaster hasn't used xchat for a while now
19:06:48 <soupdragon> okayy
19:06:54 <ehirdiphone> (you have to have read all of them to understand it though)
19:06:57 <AnMaster> here we go, *starts it*
19:07:15 <AnMaster> hrrm okay I had format strings set to display <> always
19:07:43 <fizzie> AnMaster: Something called Katamari, I believe. Some sort of a game.
19:08:11 <pikhq> Katamari Damacy. Brilliant game.
19:08:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, It was a pun on it. I heard of the game
19:08:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, I thought you knew enough Swedish to figure out the pun
19:08:35 <AnMaster> ask oerjan otherwise
19:08:42 <AnMaster> (it was a *bad* pun though)
19:08:57 * AnMaster never played it
19:09:05 <AnMaster> was it 2D or 3D?
19:09:12 <ehirdiphone> 3d
19:09:18 <AnMaster> for what platform?
19:09:23 <ehirdiphone> various
19:09:24 * ais523 tries to imagine 2D katamari damacy
19:09:30 <ais523> I think it /could/ work, just wouldn't be as good
19:09:33 <ais523> and would miss half the point
19:09:34 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, anything like n64 for emulator I meant
19:09:38 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Easiest game ever
19:09:41 <ehirdiphone> Just hold right
19:09:46 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: More recent
19:09:50 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, meh
19:09:57 <ehirdiphone> Gamecube emulation is food nowadays
19:09:58 <ehirdiphone> Good
19:10:05 <ais523> I prefer the typo
19:10:07 <AnMaster> ais523, what about 4D?
19:10:07 <ehirdiphone> Wad katamari released on GC?
19:10:14 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, garbage collector?
19:10:17 <ais523> AnMaster: Adanaxis is bad enough
19:10:21 <ehirdiphone> Gamecube.
19:10:27 <AnMaster> ais523, is that the 4D space game thingy?
19:10:32 <ais523> although, I had it working for a while (the graphics card on this netbook doesn't like it...)
19:10:34 <ais523> AnMaster: yes
19:10:48 <fizzie> Should probably try out the Maemo port of XChat some day; xterm+irssi is not bad, but still.
19:10:49 <AnMaster> hm... that was unexpected *stares at firefox*
19:10:51 <ais523> and I got decent at it, even if I can't visualise what's going on that doesn't stop me playing it
19:10:57 <AnMaster> ais523, you know in firefox, the google box?
19:11:01 <AnMaster> it says google in grey in it
19:11:09 <ais523> umm, it's a search engine box
19:11:10 <ehirdiphone> Yeees...
19:11:11 <AnMaster> and when you click in it, it becomes empty
19:11:12 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
19:11:14 <ais523> atm it's set to Cuil for me
19:11:14 <AnMaster> however
19:11:19 <ais523> and so says Cuil in grey
19:11:21 <AnMaster> I managed to paste Adanaxis there
19:11:24 <AnMaster> so it said:
19:11:27 <ehirdiphone> ais523: O_O
19:11:27 <AnMaster> GoogleAdanaxis
19:11:29 <AnMaster> in grey
19:11:32 <ais523> ehirdiphone: what?
19:11:33 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Why on earth?
19:11:35 <AnMaster> can't reproduce it
19:11:39 <AnMaster> but strange bug anyway
19:11:47 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Katamari's been on the PS2, PS3, and the 360.
19:11:49 <ais523> ehirdiphone: ever since Google started personalising searches for everyone
19:12:17 <pikhq> The two noteworthy ones are for the PS2.
19:12:17 <ais523> if everyone's going to get different Google results, it's going to be pretty much impossible to tell people to just google something
19:12:17 <pikhq> (after that, there was much less acid involved)
19:12:17 <ehirdiphone> ais523: clearly you should use bing
19:12:19 <ehirdiphone> At least bing is a useable search engine
19:12:23 <ais523> I don't actually trust any of the search engines
19:12:26 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, no, yahoo!
19:12:33 <ehirdiphone> Yahoo is bing
19:12:33 <AnMaster> or altavista :D
19:12:37 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, oh damn
19:12:37 <ehirdiphone> Remember?
19:12:38 <ais523> besides, I'm used to not getting useful results from them, Cuil doesn't massively hurt
19:12:43 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what about altavista
19:12:46 <AnMaster> what happened to it
19:12:51 <ehirdiphone> nothing
19:12:52 <ais523> AnMaster: I actually used to use it well after Google became popular
19:12:59 <ais523> because it did a lot more of a literal search than Google did
19:13:03 <AnMaster> ais523, which one? altavista?
19:13:06 <ais523> yes
19:13:08 <AnMaster> hm
19:13:14 <ais523> then they tried to improve their results, and just became like Google but worse
19:13:18 <ehirdiphone> Actually I'm getting sick of google too
19:13:20 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, so it is just a almost unused website?
19:13:32 <ais523> a perfectly literal search engine, I'd find rather useful
19:13:47 <ehirdiphone> I'm considering writing a google proxy like scroogle.org but without the bug of Daniel Brandt
19:13:49 <ais523> yes, it's trivial to manipulate the results, but people are going to be asking different sorts of questions
19:13:51 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. Sometimes I find the suggestions useful, not most of the time
19:14:27 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> I'm considering writing a google proxy like scroogle.org but without the bug of Daniel Brandt <-- I know nothing about this. So who is that person?
19:14:47 <ehirdiphone> Google/Wikipedia Watch madman.
19:15:05 <ais523> wow, AltaVista's results for INTERCAL > Google's results for INTERCAL
19:15:06 <ehirdiphone> You've probably come across google watch.
19:15:34 <ais523> 10 relevant results > 6 relevant results
19:15:38 <ais523> on the first page
19:16:03 <ehirdiphone> Scroogle is also quite slow especially via https and doesn't do image search
19:16:05 <ais523> (Wikia Search, while it was still up, managed hundreds of relevant results on the first page, as it kept showing more results as you scrolled, but that's kind-of cheating)
19:16:15 <ais523> ehirdiphone: doesn't it also violate Google's terms of service?
19:16:17 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> You've probably come across google watch. <-- no
19:16:30 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Who cares (yes, you)
19:16:38 <ais523> yes, me
19:16:53 <ehirdiphone> Guess who doesn't care that you care
19:16:55 <ais523> also, if it ever became popular, Google would just either technologically-block, or sue them
19:17:08 <ais523> maybe both
19:17:38 <ehirdiphone> Anmaster: he hates google because his site wasn't popular on it
19:17:59 <ehirdiphone> He hates wikipedia because they wouldn't delete his page
19:18:13 <ehirdiphone> From these come google-watch.org
19:18:19 <ehirdiphone> And the same for wikipedia
19:18:23 <AnMaster> hm
19:18:26 <AnMaster> okay
19:18:46 <ais523> those sites are actually in my "wouldn't visit except via TOR" category, he's that sort of a madman
19:18:47 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, both sites *does* have faults, but I guess he doesn't stay at those only
19:19:10 <ehirdiphone> He is very crazy. He ran a secret logbot in #wikipedia and evaded them banning it
19:19:18 <AnMaster> I see
19:19:29 <ais523> thus breaking Freenode's TOS too
19:19:38 <ehirdiphone> Then he sieves through the logs and goes batshit over people calling him crazy in then
19:19:40 <ehirdiphone> Them
19:19:58 <ehirdiphone> ais523: please, keep your uber legalisticness to yourself
19:20:00 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, he could just park an idle client in there with logging turned on. Nothing ilegal in idling
19:20:14 <ehirdiphone> Nobody else here cannot separate law from morality
19:20:20 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:20:28 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: He publishes the logs.
19:20:44 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> ais523: please, keep your uber legalisticness to yourself <-- quoting you about zzo: stop destroying his differences
19:20:45 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I can; I think it's sometimes moral to break the law, and there are definitely things that are immoral but legal
19:20:59 <AnMaster> well not exact-wording
19:21:05 <AnMaster> s/-/ /
19:21:21 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: zzo is fun, this is just disturbingly obedient
19:21:22 <ais523> however, it's pretty rare that you get a situation where breaking the law is morally correct
19:21:30 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, hm
19:21:35 <ais523> and if it happens, there's probably something wrong with the law
19:21:58 <AnMaster> also private logging isn't forbidden anywhere
19:22:06 <AnMaster> public logging are in some channels
19:22:10 <ais523> ehirdiphone: true or false opinion: ideally, the law should be designed in such a way that it's never morally correct to break it
19:22:24 <ais523> (I agree that this is hopelessly idealistic, but if it were possible?)
19:22:24 <Pthing> umm
19:22:45 <ais523> AnMaster: all Freenode channels that don't explicitly warn of public logging, public logging is banned
19:22:49 <Pthing> false
19:22:53 <Pthing> i think definitely false
19:22:55 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
19:23:11 <ehirdiphone> "Probably all laws are useless; for good men do not want laws at all, and bad men are made no better by them." - Demonax
19:23:15 <ais523> Pthing: interesting; what's your reasoning? (not attacking, just curious)
19:23:26 <Pthing> my reasoning is anti-hubristic
19:23:41 <ais523> ehirdiphone: a good quote; I think it fails to take corporations into account, but is largely correct wrt individuals
19:24:01 <Pthing> law is a more rigid instrument than morality
19:24:15 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Well, you clearly do not fall under good per it, so are you bad?
19:24:26 <Pthing> there is no point trying to make law identical to morality
19:24:30 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I'm not sure
19:24:39 <Pthing> because we already have morality, in all its inconstancy for that
19:24:50 <ais523> I've found contradictions in my own opinions more than once, and have been unable to resolve them
19:24:53 <ehirdiphone> Pthing: My morals are consistent.
19:25:02 <ehirdiphone> (Utilitarianism)
19:25:07 <ais523> ehirdiphone: oh no please no
19:25:15 <ehirdiphone> Your mom.
19:25:22 <ais523> strong utilitarianism is about the worst moral system you could imagine
19:25:27 <Pthing> ehirdiphone, yeah sure whatever
19:25:30 <ais523> apart from one that's actively bad
19:25:35 <Pthing> why not just be a christian if you're going to play identity games like that
19:25:45 <ehirdiphone> ais523: You are wrong.
19:25:45 <ais523> as it tries to sum incommensurable values
19:25:51 <Pthing> you can have meetings about how great utilitarianism is and sing songs about it
19:26:00 <ais523> ehirdiphone: how can you compare the happiness of one person to the happiness of another?
19:26:07 <ehirdiphone> Pthing: By using names I am religious?
19:26:13 <ehirdiphone> ais523: You don't.
19:26:18 <ais523> Pthing: do you know what utilitarianism /is/?
19:26:20 <ehirdiphone> ais523: You compare utility.
19:26:23 <Pthing> yes >:|
19:26:27 <ais523> ehirdiphone: well, yes
19:26:31 <ehirdiphone> Utilons, etc.
19:26:38 <Pthing> the problem is ehirdiphone being all about "my morals"
19:26:39 <ais523> but I don't think people have a scale of utils you can just go and measure
19:26:50 <ehirdiphone> Of course, in practice you must make estimates and judgement.
19:26:59 <ais523> and even if you could, you have feedback-loop issues
19:27:04 <ehirdiphone> Utilitarianism is the measuring stick.
19:27:11 <ais523> in that many people get upset by what they think is immoral behaviour
19:27:14 <Pthing> the other reason
19:27:17 <Pthing> why i think it is false
19:27:19 <ais523> and you need to take that into account in your calculations too
19:27:22 <Pthing> is because this is false idealism
19:27:28 <Pthing> all that exists in this case is practice
19:27:35 <Pthing> it's not like it's mathematics or anything
19:27:43 <ehirdiphone> Often it is fairly clear cut.
19:27:44 <ais523> ehirdiphone: if enough people were upset by the thought that some people used utilitarian morals, would you stop being a utilitarian?
19:28:28 <Pthing> steady on
19:28:34 <ehirdiphone> ais523: I would go for an alternative: hide my utilitarianism, attempt to remove this upset, etc.
19:28:36 <Pthing> he didn't go *that* far down the identity game
19:28:43 <Pthing> he just said his *morals* were utilitarian
19:28:44 <Pthing> not him
19:28:46 <ais523> ehirdiphone: heh
19:28:49 <Pthing> that is another level of terrible
19:28:56 <ais523> Pthing: err, I'm not sure if there can semantically be a difference
19:29:06 <Pthing> i do!
19:29:23 <ehirdiphone> A person whose moral system is utilitarianism is a utilitarian.
19:29:29 <ais523> as in, it seems to be an antitautology to have someone who has utilitarian morals but isn't a utilitarian
19:29:45 <ais523> unless they were unaware of their own morals, I suppose
19:29:48 <Pthing> yeah
19:29:51 <Pthing> that is basically it i guess
19:30:01 <Pthing> Being A Utilitarian is an identity thing
19:30:11 <ehirdiphone> No it's not.
19:30:15 <Pthing> it is!
19:30:21 <ais523> ugh, this is getting to the old logic argument about someone who believes they believe something, but doesn't believe they believe it
19:30:23 <ehirdiphone> Maybe in wanker philosopher groups.
19:30:30 <Pthing> it is a wanker philosophy term
19:30:35 <ehirdiphone> I do not belong to those groups.
19:30:37 <Pthing> because it is wanking philosophy
19:31:04 <ehirdiphone> Talking to Pthing continues to further the notion that talking to him is fruitless.
19:31:27 <Pthing> where philosophy is involved, mostly!
19:31:43 <ais523> utilitarianism is, to me, an attempt to apply economic principles to morals
19:31:49 <ehirdiphone> I am a utilitarian. I call myself that because it is what I am.
19:32:04 <ais523> so it's going to fail at least to the extent that the models economists use are inapplicable to the real world, so it's impossible to work out how to apply it
19:32:05 <Pthing> that is precisely what it means to be an identity thing :|
19:32:10 <Pthing> "I am x"
19:32:12 <AnMaster> <ais523> ugh, this is getting to the old logic argument about someone who believes they believe something, but doesn't believe they believe it <-- huh? aren't those equivilent?
19:32:12 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Well, i find any deontological system unacceptable.
19:32:25 <ais523> ugh, I've forgotten what deontological systems are
19:32:28 <ais523> AnMaster: no, they aren't
19:32:28 <ehirdiphone> ais523: As it can lead to truly horrible results.
19:32:31 <ais523> oh, yes they are
19:32:38 <AnMaster> ais523, typo?
19:32:39 <ais523> sorry, I really screwed up that sentence
19:32:41 <ais523> yes, typo
19:32:43 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Actions can be immoral no matter what their results.
19:32:46 <Pthing> when you say things like that, you are linking yourself with various kinds of philosophical wankery floating out there in platonic heaven
19:32:50 <AnMaster> ais523, so what should it have been?
19:33:12 <ehirdiphone> ais523: So murdering one person to save a billion could be morally unacceptable.
19:33:18 <ehirdiphone> ais523: This is abhorrent.
19:33:22 <ais523> AnMaster: get rid of one of the repeats of "believe", then adjust the sentence to be grammatically correct
19:33:46 <ehirdiphone> That's what deontological moral systems are.
19:33:47 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I'd say with the definition of "action" you're using, you're pretty obviously correct
19:34:01 <ehirdiphone> ais523: I disagree with it
19:34:08 <ehirdiphone> I was just defining it for you
19:34:15 <ais523> ehirdiphone: no, I mean you're correct in that it's abhorrent
19:34:20 <Pthing> OR ELSE
19:34:21 <ehirdiphone> Ah.
19:34:28 <Pthing> if not with the wankery, it is a *social* thing
19:34:32 <AnMaster> ais523, which "believe"?
19:34:36 <ais523> it's also possible to define an action as including all relevant context
19:34:40 <Pthing> and so you are linking yourself to other people who claim the same identity
19:34:40 <AnMaster> there are three to select from + one "believes"
19:34:44 <ais523> AnMaster: any, the sentence means the same thing whichever one you remove
19:35:06 <ais523> well, not quite
19:35:12 <ais523>