←2010-01 2010-02 2010-03→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:34 * MissPiggy wants to revamp education with computers as an integral part..
00:01:03 <MissPiggy> because I think it would be interesting, if you eliminate all computation by giving it to the machine -- to see what is left
00:01:28 <oklofok> our "applied mathematics" dep gives courses like that, theorems aren't proven, or at least you don't have to understand the proofs
00:01:47 <oklofok> which is sort of sad because stuff like probability theory is only found there
00:02:01 * MissPiggy doesn't know what 'understand' means anymore, either :(
00:02:25 <oklofok> for all intents and purposes, understand = memorize
00:02:47 <oklofok> well at least for this intent and purpose
00:03:17 * MissPiggy wants to write a sci-fi about it :P
00:03:27 <oklofok> err about what?
00:03:33 <oklofok> i should really continue reading...
00:03:35 <MissPiggy> computers
00:03:51 <olsner> hmm, this doesn't even seem to work :/
00:04:26 <oklofok> there's this part about singular cubes in the end i recall was pretty wacky, not sure i want to be reading it at 5 am
00:04:42 <MissPiggy> singular cubes = cube
00:04:49 <MissPiggy> pretty easy stuff if you ask me
00:04:57 <olsner> wait, it *did* work!
00:05:09 <oklofok> it's actually the image of a cube
00:05:29 <oklofok> f(C) where f is a continuous function
00:05:43 <oklofok> that's not exactly the wacky part
00:06:22 <oklofok> oh lol
00:06:28 <oklofok> sorry, idiot here
00:06:31 <oklofok> :P
00:07:04 <oklofok> forgot math terms usually also mean something in english
00:08:03 <MissPiggy> am I the only one who fantasizes about being ENCOURAGED to use a calculator to factor quadratics instead of doing pages and pages of it by hand?
00:08:33 <MissPiggy> why should it not be completely natural, when you learn a new algorithmic method of solving problems to program it in a re-useable way?
00:08:47 <coppro> I just use the quadratic formula; takes roughly as long
00:09:29 <MissPiggy> I don't care about the actual quadraitic, tat's just one example
00:09:46 <bsmntbombdood> i remember being in a class in middle school or so when the were trying to teach people to factor quadratics
00:10:16 <bsmntbombdood> they taught some kind of odd, non-deterministic method involving drawing shapes on paper
00:10:31 <oklofok> our exams rarely contain any computations that take more than half a minute even without a calculator... except for integrals
00:10:32 <MissPiggy> sounds cool
00:10:37 <MissPiggy> do you remember it?
00:10:40 <bsmntbombdood> wouldn't like me use the quadratic formula ^_^
00:11:23 <olsner> sweet, I even got the bijective de/encoding right, now all that's lacking is a weird language to plug in the middle of this
00:12:10 <oklofok> you could draw the shape of the curve and look at the picture to see where zeroes are
00:12:23 <oklofok> i suppose this was something cleverer
00:12:29 <MissPiggy> olsner what are you talking about?
00:12:32 <MissPiggy> I missed earlier
00:12:59 <oklofok> yeah what the FUCK are you talking about
00:16:00 <olsner> a program that reads stdin as a bijective base-256 number
00:16:11 <MissPiggy> bijective?
00:16:12 <olsner> then converts the number to base-pi, and back again
00:17:00 <bsmntbombdood> it doesn't make sense to have real bases
00:17:09 <olsner> hah! sure it does
00:17:13 <MissPiggy> why not?
00:17:46 <Sgeo> olsner, I thought input was base pi, and output was base e?
00:17:54 <Sgeo> Or something like that
00:18:02 <olsner> Sgeo: yeah, I just built it with output as base-pi to test that it's really working
00:18:23 <olsner> I don't really know yet how to convert directly from base-pi to base-e
00:18:48 <olsner> the burger is missing but I have the buns, so to speak
00:19:44 <oklofok> so how do you have a real base?
00:20:30 <olsner> basically, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-integer_representation
00:20:55 <olsner> it's just pi^k instead of 10^k
00:21:17 <MissPiggy> bsmntbombdood: im fax
00:21:44 <olsner> that there has a greedy algorithm to generate the representation of any number in any base > 1
00:21:52 <bsmntbombdood> i suppose it works if your digits are reals too
00:22:02 <oklofok> "The numbers di are non-negative integers less than β."
00:22:11 <oklofok> this is really the only thing i wasn't sure about
00:22:23 <olsner> yeah, so base-pi has 0,1,2,3
00:22:39 <oklofok> bsmntbombdood: lol, yeah, that would be a pretty compact representation at least
00:22:55 <oklofok> like e = (e/pi)*pi
00:23:05 <oklofok> e in base pi
00:24:49 <oklofok> nice to know that works, for some reason i've never bumped into that
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00:27:37 <olsner> it's kind of messy since it doesn't add up to zero, but it seems that you don't need to bother with decimals to get the required precision
00:42:38 <pikhq> This is... Incredibly slow.
00:42:45 <pikhq> ./a.out `cat rot13.lazy` < ~/lazyk/lazier.scm 7.26s user 0.03s system 99% cpu 7.340 total
00:43:10 <pikhq> For comparison, the shipped interpreter:
00:43:10 <pikhq> ./a.out eg/rot13.lazy < lazier.scm 0.70s user 0.02s system 80% cpu 0.891 total
00:46:19 <Sgeo> pikhq, I believe olsner is looking for slowness?
00:51:25 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
00:51:35 <Sgeo> readit
00:52:42 <oklofok> olsner: "add up to zero"? do you mean the representation of a natural number in base pi is infinite?
00:54:52 <olsner> oklofok: I suspect it might be, but I think you need a lot less than infinite to actually make it unambiguous after rounding
00:56:34 <oklofok> bsmntbombdood: sounds like the current state of mathematics
00:56:48 <oklofok> teaching of it, that is
00:56:51 <bsmntbombdood> oklofok: ...that's the point
00:57:05 <oklofok> mathematics in particular?
00:57:12 <oklofok> i haven't read all of it yet
00:58:45 <oklofok> i figured it might be about pretty much anything
00:59:04 <oklofok> but yeah maybe it could be just about math
01:00:20 <oklofok> okay i got on page two
01:00:21 <oklofok> ;)
01:08:35 <Sgeo> Is LogMeIn safe?
01:26:08 <madbr> bsmntbombdood: reading this, what I can think is... "ok but if mathematics were teached in a creative way, how would the teachers grade 150 different exams fairly"
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01:26:39 <bsmntbombdood> use a different method for evaluating performance, perhaps?
01:26:52 <bsmntbombdood> if exams are interfering with learning, there's obviously a problem
01:28:39 <madbr> like, this is kindof saying "they're not teaching creativity" and what I'm thinking is, "well, nobody teaches creativity"
01:28:41 <oklofok> give 'em a problem and give points for progress
01:32:17 * pikhq is amazed at what difference a few "foo = NULL;"s can do for memory usage.
01:33:44 <bsmntbombdood> poor garbage collection?
01:34:26 <pikhq> Garbage collectors can't collect things you still have references to.
01:34:31 <pikhq> Even if you're not using them again.
01:34:57 <pikhq> In this case, I was holding on to references before dethunking something.
01:35:08 <madbr> how about something like this: I'm writing a sound generator. I need a function that will generate a spectrum that is almost periodic, but where the phase and amplitude of harmonics vary with time
01:35:10 <pikhq> And a dethunk can take, well, any amount of time.
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01:36:05 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder if there are any garbage collectors that actually can infer that information
01:36:22 <pikhq> ML's apparently can.
01:36:29 <pikhq> As a side effect of its type system.
01:37:29 <oklofok> anyway a problem with making any subject better or more interesting to students is most people don't give a shit about anything. no matter how interesting it is, people don't want to hear it.
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01:39:07 <pikhq> The biggest gain I got was making the dethunk function actually remove its closure... That's such a ridiculous source of memory leaks.
01:42:49 <olsner> hmm, it seems I have a lot to learn about precision
01:43:21 <olsner> worked fine for certain sizes of inputs that happened to make the program choose good numbers of bits to work with
01:43:37 <olsner> but failed to properly pi-encode "hello world"
02:12:33 <bsmntbombdood> hmmm
02:12:36 <madbr> working on a bignum system?
02:13:04 <bsmntbombdood> how do you compute, exactly, the representation of a pi-encoded number?
02:14:08 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Inaccurately.
02:15:50 <oklofok> bsmntbombdood: take the biggest power of pi that fits under it, and you get the first digit, then induction
02:16:12 <oklofok> well biggest power + biggest possible digit you can multiply it with
02:16:18 <bsmntbombdood> of course
02:16:45 <bsmntbombdood> but i don't know how to do that exactly
02:16:52 <madbr> then figure out at which digit to stop?
02:17:02 <oklofok> and it's enough to use as digits the natural numbers under the number being used as base.
02:17:20 <bsmntbombdood> any exponentiation/subtraction you are doing involves representations of pi, not pi
02:17:48 <oklofok> uh
02:18:03 <oklofok> so? we're still working with the actual number
02:19:09 <oklofok> say you have 21, you'd take pi^2 first, because that's the biggest power that fits under 21, it fits under it twice, so you take 21-2*pi^2, take the representation of that real in base pi, and you'll have the rest of the digits
02:19:30 <oklofok> so you get 2x.xxxxxxxx
02:19:36 <oklofok> x's continuing forever
02:19:47 <oklofok> (no idea what they are)
02:20:18 <oklofok> nothing about this involves "representations", although you'll need some to know what powers fit under what.
02:21:05 <bsmntbombdood> you can't exactly subtract 2*pi^2
02:21:12 <oklofok> you can't?
02:21:18 <oklofok> 21-2*pi^2 is a real number
02:21:54 <oklofok> we can represent it as a base pi number that contains only one whole digit, that is, its representation in base pi is of the form x.xxxxx
02:22:28 <bsmntbombdood> is 21-2*pi^2 equal to 3, 1.78, 1.2808, 1.268238, 1.2619555, 1.26082454, etc
02:23:03 <oklofok> are you saying you can't represent 21-2*pi^2 in base 10 using a finite number of digits?
02:23:12 <madbr> using base pi sounds weird
02:23:19 <oklofok> because that's completely true
02:23:32 <oklofok> you also can't represent it in a finite amount of bananas if bananas map in no way to real number.
02:23:33 <oklofok> s
02:24:05 <bsmntbombdood> you end up having to use an approximation of pi for all your calculations, is what i'm saying
02:24:16 <oklofok> who said anything about calculations?
02:24:45 <madbr> bsmntbombdood: you could store the operations, then evaluate just the number of digits you need
02:24:56 <oklofok> we are talking about the existence of the representation. pi has all sorts of algebraic properties, you can probably devise an algorithm for finding exact representations for numbers.
02:25:12 <oklofok> for a general real number that is obviously impossible
02:25:50 <bsmntbombdood> i understand that it exists, i am talking about an algorithm
02:25:59 <oklofok> oh
02:26:12 <oklofok> that's trickier
02:27:43 <oklofok> but yeah, approximate to some amount of digits. not exactly that interesting.
02:28:51 <madbr> well, pi can be done with, what, some polynomial series?
02:31:11 <oklofok> bsmntbombdood: an exact algorithm would be to just have the thing you are trying to represent in the form "21-2*pi^2". you start making approximations for pi to get the correct amount of pi^1's, say n, but then you'd continue with 21 - 2*pi^2 - n*pi, and use approximations to find the amount of 1's needed, etc.
02:33:55 <oklofok> (not actually an algorithm, but at least there's no error)
02:34:06 <oklofok> (i mean it might hang)
02:35:36 <oklofok> madbr: can't pi be done with pretty much anything
02:36:26 <madbr> you know better than be probably
02:37:00 <oklofok> i don't know anything about pi
02:37:27 <oklofok> i don't even know why it isn't algebraic
02:38:14 <oklofok> i hear it's like totally nontrivial
02:38:40 <oklofok> ...lol my gf will wake up soon, i should really start reading soon :P
02:39:19 <oklofok> (only 4:38, and i'm already reading about singular cubes, yay)
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06:47:29 <Slereah> Hey
06:47:53 <oerjan> ho
06:47:59 <Slereah> I get a lot of Cannot send to channel for some reason on the other channels for some reason
06:48:02 <Slereah> What gives!
06:49:04 <oerjan> you don't seem to be registered. is it possible they only allow registered nicks to speak?
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06:50:18 <oerjan> they just changed ircd program, in case you haven't noticed, so some setup has changed
06:50:44 <Slereah> Weird
06:51:03 <oerjan> +R turned into some other quieting option, although i didn't have the impression it should change what happened in practice...
06:51:48 <Slereah> Yeah, but the channel I just tried talking doesn't have +R on
06:51:52 <Slereah> Or so it seems
06:51:58 <oerjan> +R doesn't exist any longer
06:52:05 <Slereah> And I can talk here just fine
06:52:08 <oerjan> it's +q something
06:52:29 <oerjan> well we've never silenced people here that i can remember...
06:52:32 <Slereah> It's just +cnt on ##physics
06:52:59 <oerjan> i'm not sure +q shows up by default, i think it's like a ban list
06:53:41 <oerjan> 07:52 0 - ##physics: ban $~a [by
06:53:42 <oerjan> JabberWalkie!~superdude@CPE0013d44814fd-CM001bd70964c4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com, 121722 secs ago]
06:53:49 <oerjan> i think that might be the one
06:54:02 <oerjan> (found with /mode #physics +q)
06:54:09 <oerjan> *##physics
06:54:21 <Slereah> Well, let's try now
06:57:26 <Slereah> It works, thx
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08:22:15 <olsner> hm, I'm thinking: screw this precision game, let's just choose an "official" number of bits for pi and store everything exactly as rationals when working
08:23:26 <olsner> but it would be better to just figure out how to make this reliable, that'd teach me something too
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15:03:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what should 0j@ do? should it remain on j forever or should it reach the @ at some point?
15:05:30 <Deewiant> If 1j is like # then 0j is like z.
15:06:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm does mycology test 0j?
15:06:43 <Deewiant> Beats me.
15:10:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so 0jv should take the down path then
15:10:21 <AnMaster> well strange, it looks like the code in cfunge does the wrong thing, but it does in fact do the right thing
15:12:06 <AnMaster> oh wait... now I see how it works
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15:33:18 <cheater> hi AnMaster
15:47:10 <AnMaster> hello
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16:58:53 <Ilari> Ugh. This lib needs to call closure as callback, but the function to register callback doesn't take context. :-/ ... Well, I think this needs trampolines (yay, runtime code generation). :-)
17:06:04 <pikhq> Well, if you don't care about it being even vaguely reentrant, you could just use a global. :P
17:13:32 <Ilari> Unfortunately, that isn't an option there.
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17:57:38 * cpressey suddenly wants to start a punk band called "sudo rm -rf /"
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19:13:02 <MissPiggy> I think of a simple loop based language that you can write O(n^k) programs (for any fixed k)
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19:19:46 <Ilari> Yeah, if one can only do fixed-count iteration, then one can only write algorithms that are in P.
19:20:16 <MissPiggy> every algorithm in P?
19:21:24 <Ilari> Actually, that's only if one can only iterate over collections. Number-based iteration allows algorithms not in P.
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19:21:44 <MissPiggy> oop
19:23:50 <Ilari> Actually, if one has number-based fixed iteration, one could do at least up to EXPTIME-complete.
19:25:43 <cpressey> I thought it was NEXPTIME
19:26:18 <Ilari> At least up to...
19:26:51 <Ilari> So might be some even bigger class...
19:27:17 <cpressey> Well, I don't remember where I heard that, and I don't know if I'm remembering it correctly.
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19:29:45 <cpressey> At any rate, it contains every algorithm described as "feasible", which means... for "practical work" you don't need a Turing-complete computer. You only need TC if you want to write an interpreter :)
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19:32:11 <cpressey> s/computer/language/ to be a bit more precise.
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20:11:42 <AnMaster> cpressey, so writing an interpreter isn't feasible then? ;P
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20:20:50 <cpressey> AnMaster: Apparently not! I do like the distinction you can draw from it, though: "If I can prove my code halts, it's an algorithm. Otherwise, it's an interpreter."
20:26:28 <AnMaster> cpressey, you could have interpreters for sub-tc languages you know will always halt
20:26:55 <AnMaster> iirc ais/scarf designed one reversible always-halting language
20:27:03 <AnMaster> forgot the name of it
20:27:14 <uorygl> ais/scarf? Is that his name now?
20:27:35 <AnMaster> uorygl, he used scarf sometimes recently
20:28:04 <uorygl> Neat. Now I know who scarf is.
20:28:15 <AnMaster> hah
20:28:27 <AnMaster> hm 614 new mails
20:28:31 <AnMaster> most are probably spam
20:28:52 <AnMaster> actually no, it looks like there has been some huge debate on flightgear-devel list
20:30:02 <cpressey> AnMaster: well, if that'
20:30:44 <AnMaster> cpressey, ?
20:30:51 <cpressey> if that's an interpreter, then so is a program that solves the travelling salesman problem, is all I meant.
20:30:59 <AnMaster> cpressey, heh
20:31:03 <cpressey> Where the language there is weighted undirected graphs :)
20:31:26 <cpressey> Very, very sub-TC, you might say...
20:32:30 <cpressey> Now, back to fighting my favourite thing to ever come out of gnu: libtool.
20:32:37 * cpressey groans.
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20:34:22 <cpressey> I wonder if the worlds of pain caused by shared libraries could have been avoided by just having OSes/filesystems that do hash consing.
20:35:45 <cpressey> Nah, probably not, b/c you have to rewrite all those pointers when you link statically, so the same library statically linked into two different files would look different in each. Ah well.
20:43:20 <AnMaster> cpressey, why are you using libtool?
20:43:45 <AnMaster> you can do shared libraries without libtool just fine
20:43:53 <AnMaster> cpressey, also how do you mean hash consing?
20:45:11 <cpressey> AnMaster: basically, every time you allocate a new piece of data, check to see if you already have an identical piece of data, and if so, just keep a reference to the existing data instead. The name comes from the research where the technique was developed in LISP.
20:45:41 <cpressey> as for why libtool... because i am stupidly trying to build some tools i need (subversion, right now) from source
20:46:13 <AnMaster> cpressey, like venti?
20:46:25 <AnMaster> (plan9 thing iirc)
20:46:33 <AnMaster> (yeah part of plan9 even)
20:47:13 <AnMaster> cpressey, they tend to just work after ./configure --prefix=$HOME/local/subversion && make && make install
20:48:18 <cpressey> Oh yes, it's very nice when they just work :) Darn thing keeps telling me it can't find expat, though.
20:48:35 <AnMaster> cpressey, so install expat
20:48:44 <AnMaster> sudo pacman -S expat
20:48:53 <AnMaster> or sudo apt-get install expat-dev or whatever
20:49:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: Building shared libraries without libtool is a pain to do portably.
20:49:38 <AnMaster> ah seems to be libexpat1-dev on ubuntu
20:49:48 <pikhq> ... Building anything *with* libtool is a pain, so I guess it evens out.
20:49:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, does it work on *bsd and linux easily without libtool?
20:50:23 <AnMaster> I don't really care about HP-UX, VMS and other obscure systems
20:50:30 <AnMaster> oh AIX too
20:50:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: It *works*, but people seem to suck at it.
20:50:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, isn't it just gcc -shared ?
20:50:45 <pikhq> (next person to build a shared library without -fPIC gets a kick to the balls)
20:50:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes of course you use -fpic
20:50:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Add -fPIC for fucks sake.
20:51:02 <AnMaster> also -fpic NOT -fPIC
20:51:15 <AnMaster> the lower case version is better on some platforms iirc
20:51:47 <pikhq> Yes, like DOS.
20:51:47 <pikhq> And DOS.
20:51:49 <pikhq> Also DOS.
20:52:01 <olsner> and sparc
20:52:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, what? -fpic vs. -fPIC?
20:52:46 <AnMaster> no
20:52:57 <pikhq> No, wait...
20:53:06 <AnMaster> it makes a difference only on SPARC, m68k and RS/6000 says man gcc
20:53:15 <pikhq> According to the man page, it only makes difference on m68k, PowerPC, and SPARC.
20:53:29 <olsner> haha
20:53:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, mine lists SPARC, m68k and RS/6000 under -fpic but m68, PowerPC and SPARC under -fPIC
20:53:45 <pikhq> -fpic makes a smaller offset table.
20:53:48 <AnMaster> whatever that is supposed to mean
20:53:56 <pikhq> If it's too small, it'll not compile.
20:54:01 <pikhq> -fPIC will always work.
20:54:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is faster though
20:54:09 <AnMaster> iirc
20:54:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: If your shared library is small enough.
20:54:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, and if you need such a large GOT you have too many functions
20:54:35 <AnMaster> divide it in more
20:54:50 <AnMaster> a library should follow the unix philosophy too
20:54:56 <AnMaster> (do one thing, do it well)
20:54:59 <pikhq> Anyways.
20:55:10 <olsner> on sparc the smaller table means single instructions can be used to load offsets into it, -fPIC generates double-instruction constant loading that can handle large offsets
20:55:12 <pikhq> Many build systems build shared libraries *without* using position-independent code.
20:55:30 <AnMaster> olsner, right
20:55:36 <pikhq> Because the x86 dynamic linker will manually relocate the library if it's not PIC.
20:55:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, that won't load
20:55:44 <AnMaster> on x86-64 iirc
20:55:46 <pikhq> It will on x86.
20:55:48 <pikhq> And *nowhere* else.
20:55:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, not on x86-64
20:56:00 <AnMaster> pretty sure about that
20:56:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes. That's not x86.
20:56:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, well the difference is slight
20:56:18 <AnMaster> also x86-64 is the norm nowdyas
20:56:21 <AnMaster> days*
20:56:25 <AnMaster> for linux
20:56:31 <pikhq> The difference between the CPU architecture is slight.
20:56:38 <pikhq> The ABI is radically different.
20:56:44 <AnMaster> true
20:57:06 <AnMaster> where is the x86 abi
20:57:14 <AnMaster> I only read the amd64 abi
20:57:21 <pikhq> Undefined.
20:57:24 <pikhq> It's per-OS.
20:57:28 <pikhq> And often per-compiler.
20:57:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, well it must be documented for linux...
20:57:34 <AnMaster> somewhere
20:57:40 <pikhq> And if you're on Windows, give up now.
20:57:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, also Microsoft ignores the amd64 abi yes
20:58:02 <pikhq> Microsoft defines its own, yes.
20:58:13 <pikhq> Windows on x86 has 3 or 4 different calling conventions.
20:58:43 <pikhq> The Linux x86 ABI is defined in the LSB.
20:59:17 <AnMaster> I would like a nice, easy to use, 3D modeller, based on using boolean functions between primitives. Such as "intersection of this cube and (union of that cylinder and that sphere)". Anyone know such a thing?
20:59:45 <pikhq> Except for C++-specific details; those are from the IA64 ABI documentation for all GCC-supported architectures.
20:59:47 <AnMaster> this would in other words not be based on polygons (or it could be as well)
21:00:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, linux use different calling convetions on x86 too. regparam for example
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21:00:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: regparam is very, very rarely used.
21:00:38 <AnMaster> cfunge uses regparam attribute on x86 to speed things up (there is a measurable difference)
21:00:53 <cpressey> AnMaster: thank you. libexpat1-dev worked. Why it worked and why plain 'expat' did not, I still have no good idea -- it's not like extra so's were installed (and that's what it was saying it couldn't find.)
21:01:06 <AnMaster> cpressey, plain expat is a program it says
21:01:17 <AnMaster> cpressey, "expat - XML parsing C library - example application"
21:01:22 <AnMaster> apt-get tells me that
21:01:27 <AnMaster> err
21:01:28 <AnMaster> apt-cache
21:02:04 <pikhq> Wheras on Windows, there's fastcall, stdcall, cdecl, safecall, and pascal calling conventions...
21:02:04 <cpressey> AnMaster: but expat installs /usr/lib/libexpat.so* ... which should be enough to link to, given that it didn't complain about headers.
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21:02:23 <AnMaster> cpressey, well. maybe it needs *.la or *.a?
21:02:25 -!- rodgort has quit (Client Quit).
21:02:40 <pikhq> And those are just in use by Microsoft's compiler.
21:02:50 <AnMaster> cpressey, if you are doing subversion why not apt-get builddep subversion
21:02:53 <AnMaster> or was it builddeps
21:02:54 <AnMaster> ?
21:02:57 <AnMaster> something like that
21:03:00 <cpressey> AnMaster: well, libexpat.la appears to have been in my lib dir since Jan 19 as well
21:03:16 <cpressey> At any rate, it's built. best not to think any more about it, right? :)
21:03:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, delphi (which is pascal) used fastcall internally iirc
21:03:23 <pikhq> There's *also* the Borland fastcall and the GNU cdecl.
21:03:29 <AnMaster> or was it a modified fastcall?
21:03:32 <AnMaster> well probably
21:03:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, gnu uses it's own cdecl on windows?
21:03:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: The difference is in struct packing.
21:04:06 <AnMaster> <cpressey> At any rate, it's built. best not to think any more about it, right? :) <-- wrong. You always try to figure out *why* something unexpected happened
21:04:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, -_-
21:04:15 <pikhq> It packs its structs differently from Microsoft C.
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21:04:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, that isn't calling convention!
21:04:26 <pikhq> With an attribute for Microsoft packing.
21:04:31 <AnMaster> struct packing is, well, ABI yes
21:04:36 <AnMaster> but not calling convention
21:04:38 <pikhq> Fine, fine, remove the GNU cdecl.
21:04:52 <pikhq> Borland still has its own fastcall.
21:05:06 <pikhq> (different registers are used)
21:05:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway regparam with gcc isn't that rarely used. Let me grep cfunge sources for number of times it is used!
21:05:37 <pikhq> cfunge is the first thing I've heard of actually *using* it.
21:05:42 <cpressey> AnMaster: maybe my smiley should have been a ;-)
21:05:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, does MS still use fastcall?
21:05:49 <AnMaster> cpressey, maybe
21:05:53 <pikhq> Yes.
21:06:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, for what sort of functions
21:06:09 <pikhq> Random parts of Win32 use it.
21:06:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, also what about thiscall?
21:06:30 <pikhq> That's just a C++ implementation detail.
21:06:32 <AnMaster> ah
21:06:33 <pikhq> "First argument is this".
21:06:43 <AnMaster> s/C++/python/ ;P
21:06:54 <AnMaster> (except there it is explicit!)
21:07:00 <pikhq> Heheh.
21:07:42 <pikhq> Microsoft at least went sane on x86_64...
21:07:44 <AnMaster> how comes C++ needs it's own "different from C" ABI, while python manages fine with the C abi.
21:07:48 <pikhq> There is one calling convention.
21:07:48 <AnMaster> well yes I can see the reasons
21:07:50 <AnMaster> but still
21:07:52 <AnMaster> it makes you wonder
21:08:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, different from linux one though on x86_64
21:08:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, also doesn't syscalls use their own?
21:08:24 <AnMaster> on both linux and windows
21:08:26 <pikhq> Yes, but it's at least a *single* calling convention.
21:08:36 <pikhq> Syscalls must -- there's no way to just "call" them.
21:08:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, call gates?
21:08:50 <AnMaster> I have a vague memory of reading about that
21:08:58 <AnMaster> not sure how it worked
21:09:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: Even that requires some specific work on them.
21:09:38 <pikhq> The Linux call gate is linked in before the dynamic linker is started.
21:09:51 <pikhq> And the Linux call gate is at a specific address.
21:09:52 <AnMaster> true
21:09:56 <AnMaster> also no longer used
21:10:02 <AnMaster> it uses SYSCALL/SYSRET iirc?
21:10:07 <pikhq> ... No, the call gate is still used.
21:10:09 <AnMaster> or was it SYSENTER/SYSEXIT?
21:10:13 <pikhq> The call gate is a *recent thing*.
21:10:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, if you mean the vdso...
21:10:27 <pikhq> Yes, that's the call gate.
21:10:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, not the call gate in the meaning I used it
21:10:42 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_gate
21:10:52 <AnMaster> "Assuming a call gate has been set up already by the operating system kernel, code simply does a CALL FAR (LCALL in AT&T syntax) with the necessary segment selector (the offset field is ignored). "
21:11:09 <pikhq> Oh, that bloody thing.
21:11:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, so you know about it?
21:12:12 <pikhq> Linux doesn't use that.
21:12:22 <AnMaster> did I say it did?
21:12:27 <pikhq> No.
21:12:37 <pikhq> I'm saying it doesn't at all, though.
21:13:01 <Ilari> SYSENTER is quite funky. IIRC, it does not save address that called it.
21:13:10 <pikhq> Because it damned well doesn't help matters any.
21:13:19 <AnMaster> is it SYSCALL that is used then?
21:13:33 <pikhq> Linux's entry methods are an interrupt, syscall/sysret, or sysenter/sysexit.
21:13:37 <Ilari> So there can only be one SYSENTER in each VM space.
21:13:48 <pikhq> The Linux VDSO uses whichever one is the fastest.
21:13:48 <AnMaster> "It should be noted that call gates are more flexible than the SYSENTER/SYSEXIT and SYSCALL/SYSRET instructions since unlike the latter two, call gates allow for changing from an arbitrary privilege level to an arbitrary (albeit higher or equal) privilege level. The fast SYS* instruction only allow control transfers from ring 3->0 and vice versa. Upon comparing call gates to interrupts, call gates are
21:13:49 <AnMaster> significantly faster."
21:13:55 <cpressey> Interesting stuff.
21:14:32 <cpressey> I would think they would be a lot faster, especially for some access patterns (though maybe not ones that are frequently used in modern OSes)
21:14:53 <Ilari> And that SYSENTER is part of Linux-gate VDSO.
21:14:59 <AnMaster> cpressey, iirc virtualbox uses ring 2 a bit if there is no VT-d/whatever support
21:15:05 <AnMaster> or VT-x or whatever it was
21:15:12 <cpressey> Waiting for the next interrupt can be killer.
21:15:21 <pikhq> Ilari: Only if it's present.
21:15:26 <AnMaster> Ilari, even on x86-64?'
21:15:31 <AnMaster> s/'//
21:15:46 <AnMaster> I thought it used syscall exclusively on x86-64
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21:16:29 <AnMaster> basically AMD64 deprecated Intel's sysenter in the AMD64 specs
21:16:33 * AnMaster opens the file
21:17:01 <AnMaster> "6.1.2 SYSENTER and SYSEXIT (Legacy Mode Only)"
21:17:02 <Ilari> Well, if X64 has SYSCALL, its probably better than SYSENTER.
21:17:20 <AnMaster> " L i ke S Y S C A L L a n d S Y S R E T, S Y S E N T E R a n d
21:17:20 <AnMaster> SYSEXIT are low-latency system call and return instructions designed for use by system and
21:17:20 <AnMaster> application software implementing a flat-memory model. However, these instructions are illegal in
21:17:20 <AnMaster> long mode and result in an undefined opcode exception (#UD) if software attempts to use them.
21:17:20 <AnMaster> Software should use the SYSCALL and SYSRET instructions when running in long mode."
21:17:24 <AnMaster> yeargh
21:17:28 * AnMaster kills evince
21:17:37 <AnMaster> what the hell did it do there
21:17:47 <AnMaster> with that spacing
21:17:52 <pikhq> Ilari: Syscall and Sysenter do roughly the same thing.
21:18:02 <pikhq> One was created by Intel, the other by AMD.
21:18:20 <Ilari> pikhq: And presumably SYSCALL saves RIP...
21:18:46 <pikhq> Probably.
21:19:10 <AnMaster> doesn't linux map the clock in process memory for gettimeofday() and such
21:19:18 <AnMaster> it is iirc done in the vdso magic
21:19:41 <pikhq> Possibly.
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23:20:32 <olsner> hah, getting a newer gmp and compiling mpfr and gmp locally seems to have given around 20%
23:21:13 <olsner> optimizing while the program isn't even made correct <3
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23:58:50 <zzo38> Finally, it works!
23:58:59 <zzo38> It works! The OASYS->TAVSYS works! It works! It {OUCH}
00:01:31 <zzo38> http://pbox.ca/121kt
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00:12:35 <zzo38> Hay you ! No cheating! Of course I am not channel operation
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00:19:18 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/HdLe Hooray, boredom.
00:22:45 <pikhq> (CPS in C. For no good reason.)
00:23:02 <olsner> all hail bad reasons
00:23:27 <olsner> all also hail absense of reasons
00:24:45 <olsner> also, dividing by the same (large arbitrary-precision floating-point) value was slower than inverting the value and multiplying instead
00:25:13 <olsner> almost 3x as fast, actually
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00:30:42 <cpressey> IMO it's a sign of a fairly useless pastebin if it doesn't support copying out as plain text! (pbox.ca)
00:30:45 <cpressey> Night all.
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00:35:14 <zzo38> This is a better one http://pastebin.ca/raw/1774973
00:35:51 <zzo38> Now it is not useless
00:37:39 <zzo38> I have a new kind of question: Do you know how to play Quintuple Arcana?
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00:52:04 <zzo38> How many eyes does ettercap has?
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01:01:08 <zzo38> Even fortune cookies need to sleep sometime!
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03:14:04 <pikhq> http://filebin.ca/mckche/ski.tar.gz
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14:09:34 <cheater> is function-level programming similar to writing completely lambda lifted programs?
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17:04:44 <oerjan> <cheater> is function-level programming similar to writing completely lambda lifted programs?
17:05:04 <oerjan> i think it's more similar to writing point-free programs
17:05:34 <oerjan> or wait, what is lambda lifted again
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17:08:33 <oerjan> hm right
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17:12:50 <oerjan> from what i get from wikipedia's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function-level_programming article + my slight knowledge of FP, completely lambda-lifted programs are almost the opposite of that
17:13:08 <oerjan> they certainly have plenty of variables
17:14:13 <oerjan> cheater: ^
17:15:25 <oerjan> and point-free programs are not quite the same as FP's style either, since you can definitely combine new higher-order functions with point-free programming
17:15:53 <cpressey> oerjan: that's what I said at first (function level being similar to pointfree), but I'm still trying to figure out what the heck Backus was talking about.
17:16:30 <oerjan> yeah his strictly limited set of higher-order functions makes it very weird
17:18:13 <cpressey> Yeah, he seems to make a strict distinction between functions and functionals, which isn't made in most discussion of functional programming. And I'm not sure I think it's all that useful... when functions *are* values, is the division between "function-level" and "value-level" really that strong?
17:18:34 -!- oerjan has set topic: 16 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:20:06 <cpressey> The other thing that FP seems to do (although this is possibly coincidental, and not part of function-level programming) is that it's not possible to embed a literal in a program -- all your values have to supplied as input.
17:20:28 -!- oerjan has set topic: 15 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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17:21:25 <cpressey> Which means you can't really write a program to compute the diameter of a circle, given its radius. You would have to write "... given its radius and the current universe's value of pi" :)
17:22:12 <oerjan> hm doesn't FP have a way of creating constant functions?
17:22:14 <cpressey> Although, depending on the language, there are ways to defeat that, given logical invariants like x & ~x -> false
17:22:45 <cpressey> What I understood was, it has a way to turn a value into a constant function (but the value still has to come from input)
17:24:44 <oerjan> i don't see how that makes sense if functions are _not_ values
17:25:18 <oerjan> and my impression is they are not
17:26:18 <oerjan> my intuition tells me that it's more like a function form "constant x" which is a function, although x is a value - wp article is not clear on this
17:26:28 <cpressey> Well, you can build new ones using functionals. So you can manipulate them, like you would manipulate any other value. So it seems safe-ish to say functions "are values" in FP. Even if they're a compeltely different type of value from everything else.
17:27:19 <oerjan> sure, but a function in FP cannot turn a value into a function
17:27:30 <oerjan> it can only give values as results, i think
17:27:38 * oerjan should find a more reliable source
17:27:44 <MissPiggy> FP is STUPID!!!!!!
17:27:45 <cpressey> hm, that's a point.
17:28:00 <cpressey> MissPiggy has a point also.
17:28:02 <MissPiggy> anyone that wants to do functional programming without LAMBDA has lots his MARBLES
17:28:19 <MissPiggy> it's no coindicendec that LAMBDA is an anagram of MARBLES
17:28:37 <oerjan> you must have lost some marbles to think that
17:28:45 <oerjan> (the anagram part)
17:29:17 <cpressey> LAMBSER DRACULA'S
17:31:26 <cpressey> I kind of think the whole function/functional thing in FP was to simplify/rigidify the type system. Kind of like Russel's stuff about making sets of sets different from plain old sets.
17:35:06 <oerjan> oh, in http://www.stanford.edu/class/cs242/readings/backus.pdf it shows that constant is a functional form, not a function
17:35:25 <oerjan> and functional forms may have object arguments as well as function arguments
17:35:27 <scarf> [17:18] *** oerjan sets the channel topic to "16 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D". [17:20] *** oerjan sets the channel topic to "15 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D".
17:35:34 <scarf> I love the sort of time dilation that makes ehird capable of that
17:35:55 <cpressey> oerjan: That's what I suspected - so "functionals take functions to functions" on wp is wrong
17:36:10 <oerjan> i was first thinking that he hadn't been here since a sunday, but then i checked his reddit page and there was a comment from 15 days ago
17:36:22 <oerjan> yeah
17:43:13 <MissPiggy> where is ehird?
17:43:29 <oerjan> no idea
17:43:32 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:44:58 <scarf> maybe we should try email?
17:45:05 <scarf> my guess is an extended ban from the internet, for whatever reason
17:45:57 <AnMaster> <cpressey> Which means you can't really write a program to compute the diameter of a circle, given its radius. You would have to write "... given its radius and the current universe's value of pi" :) <-- why did I just imagine a continuation of the universe....
17:46:02 <scarf> most recent email I have from ehird (which he posted to a mailing list I'm on) is jan 13
17:46:46 <oerjan> he's been online since then though
17:46:54 <AnMaster> hm
17:47:23 <AnMaster> also, could haskell exist without *external* state.
17:47:25 <oerjan> 18th or so
17:47:31 <AnMaster> as in, imagine there is no universe, just haskell
17:47:51 <scarf> I've emailed him, anyway
17:47:55 <AnMaster> or maybe not
17:47:57 <MissPiggy> ;(
17:49:36 <scarf> AnMaster: sounds worryingly like the smalltalk view of the universe
17:49:43 <scarf> but that's pretty easy to set up
17:49:48 <scarf> just ban the IO monad, look no more universe
17:50:31 <AnMaster> scarf, also ST/state.
17:50:40 <scarf> AnMaster: that's an internal thing
17:50:42 <AnMaster> since there is nowhere for the interpreter to store the state
17:50:50 <scarf> and yes there is, it can be stored in the moand
17:50:51 <scarf> *monad
17:50:54 <AnMaster> without existing in an external stateness context
17:50:56 <scarf> you can implement the state monad in pure haskell
17:51:02 <AnMaster> scarf, oh?
17:51:15 <AnMaster> scarf, what about the ST one?
17:51:19 <scarf> I don't know about ST
17:51:25 <AnMaster> hm okay
17:51:34 <pikhq> ST is only implemented with magic for efficiency's sake.
17:51:40 <pikhq> State *is* pure Haskell.
17:51:58 <pikhq> In fact, IO is only implemented with magic for utility's sake.
17:52:15 <scarf> I mean, I don't know what ST is
17:52:16 <pikhq> It's perfectly feasible to implement it in pure Haskell, so long as you don't mind it all doing not-much.
17:52:24 <pikhq> scarf: Strict state monad.
17:52:32 <scarf> ah, ouch
17:52:34 <AnMaster> also unless the gc could be implemented in pure haskell, this haskell's heap would grow forever, no?
17:52:46 <pikhq> That's an implementation detail.
17:52:48 <scarf> that sounds like it would be a) implementable nonmagically, and b) very inefficient if you did
17:53:02 <pikhq> scarf: Yes and yes.
17:53:22 <scarf> AnMaster: you're assuming something with a relatively standard pointer architecture for gc to even make sense
17:53:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: There's no *need* for garbage collection.
17:53:41 <scarf> I have more than one Underload interp; one of them uses a ref-counting gc, many others don't use or need any sort of gc at all
17:53:47 <AnMaster> scarf, well we are getting to that
17:53:54 <pikhq> Only for most practical implementations.
17:53:55 <AnMaster> hm
17:56:13 <scarf> gc is more-or-less a side effect of using references rather than just copying the entire object whenever you need a copy
17:56:15 <MissPiggy> I was trying to implement ST today
17:56:21 <MissPiggy> but I did not succeed
17:56:39 <scarf> obviously, the first is more efficient on standard computers, but there's no reason it has to work like that in practice
17:56:50 <scarf> well, in theory at least, but probably practice too
17:57:05 <scarf> for instance, you wouldn't use gc if you were implementing underload in, say, lisp
17:57:09 <cpressey> Indeed, when you have an infinite amount of tape, why bother reusing it?
17:57:10 <scarf> because having two layers of gc is pointless
17:57:34 <AnMaster> scarf, and pointerless?
17:57:37 <scarf> cpressey: I think Keymaker's BF implementation of Underload does indeed not use pointers, and it would be a lot more bloated if it did
17:57:48 <AnMaster> (sorry, should have left that to oerjan)
17:57:58 <scarf> oh, didn't realise it was meant to be a pun
17:58:44 <AnMaster> also the bf tape is not infinite
17:58:48 <AnMaster> in practise
17:59:06 <AnMaster> scarf, just write one in C and use gcc-bf ;P
17:59:38 <scarf> AnMaster: I'm now trying to imagine the size of Underload program that would be needed to make it run faster in gcc-bf-derlo than in keymaker's interp
17:59:58 <scarf> I think there is one, but I worry that it might be so large that it wouldn't fit into the limited-sized memory gcc-bf uses
18:00:20 <AnMaster> heh
18:00:46 <AnMaster> scarf, doesn't it partly depend on memory patterns
18:00:56 <AnMaster> like an endless loop that duplicates some data along the way
18:01:04 <scarf> AnMaster: yes, of course
18:01:07 <AnMaster> but which keeps the stack at a limited max
18:01:37 <AnMaster> scarf, wouldn't that require a gc to not run out of memory?
18:01:54 <scarf> AnMaster: it would either run out with or without, or not run out with or without
18:02:13 <AnMaster> scarf, oh?
18:02:34 <scarf> AnMaster: because you need either infinitely many pointers to the data/infinitely many copies of the data
18:02:37 <scarf> or finitely many of both
18:02:59 <AnMaster> ah
18:03:43 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^:^:^:^^^S
18:03:43 <fungot> ...out of time!
18:04:23 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^:^:^^^S
18:04:24 <fungot> ...out of time!
18:04:27 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^:^^^S
18:04:28 <fungot> ...out of time!
18:04:31 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^^^S
18:04:32 <fungot> ...out of time!
18:04:35 <scarf> ok, that's strange
18:04:39 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^)^^S
18:04:39 <fungot> ...bad insn!
18:04:57 <cpressey> fungot evaluates Underload?
18:04:58 <fungot> cpressey: what is stfu?". i want a divorce!!... this is nice but the drivers aren't always
18:05:00 <scarf> cpressey: yes
18:05:23 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)^S
18:05:23 <fungot> x
18:05:33 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~):*^S
18:05:33 <fungot> y
18:05:39 <scarf> oh, I see what I did wrong
18:05:50 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:*):*:*:*:*^^S
18:05:50 <fungot> ...too much stack!
18:05:53 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:*):*:*:*^^S
18:05:53 <fungot> x
18:05:57 <scarf> there we go
18:06:43 <scarf> still, the mistaken original somehow segfaulted when I pressed control-C, for no obvious reason
18:06:43 <scarf> in derlo
18:07:01 <scarf> oh, with a stack overflow
18:07:13 <scarf> (thanks Valgrind!)
18:11:35 <scarf> meanwhile, /this/ has happened to the Java documentation: http://java.sun.com/javase/reference/api.jsp
18:11:52 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
18:12:29 <scarf> and likewise, http://sun.com is just a redirect
18:12:51 <AnMaster> cpressey, see:
18:12:53 <AnMaster> ^help
18:12:53 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
18:13:00 <cpressey> scarf: I don't see anything strange about the 1st link, but the 2nd was darn surprising
18:13:01 <AnMaster> bf and ul
18:13:13 <scarf> cpressey: the first link, look at the title and the colours
18:13:22 <cpressey> scarf: Ah.
18:13:23 <scarf> if you teach Java for a living like I do, you get used to looking at the API
18:13:28 <scarf> and it's weird seeing it with Oracle branding
18:13:37 <AnMaster> cpressey, also:
18:13:39 <AnMaster> ^source
18:13:39 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
18:14:03 <cpressey> Um, yes. I've been under a rock wrt the Java world lately, and I wasn't aware of this... acquisition or whatever it is.
18:14:11 <scarf> cpressey: Oracle bought Sun
18:14:25 <scarf> the entire company, including everything that they owned
18:14:34 <scarf> it's hilarious seeing adverts for Oracle Solaris, for instance
18:14:38 <AnMaster> <scarf> and likewise, http://sun.com is just a redirect <-- old (several days)
18:14:44 <cpressey> That's so... sad.
18:14:55 <scarf> AnMaster: yes, but still shocking
18:15:08 <AnMaster> well yes
18:15:17 <AnMaster> also what will happen to mysql
18:15:24 <AnMaster> just wondering
18:15:30 <scarf> apparently, oracle are going to invest in it
18:15:30 <AnMaster> I much prefer postgre
18:15:32 <cpressey> AnMaster: re source: cool!
18:15:47 <AnMaster> cpressey, well yes, I thought *you* would think that ;P
18:15:51 <scarf> the underload interp starts on line 311, if you're interested
18:16:27 <cpressey> If you want to pay a lot for a mediocre DB, Oracle is a good choice.
18:17:54 <cpressey> If you don't have that kind of money for that kind of mediocrity, MySQL is a good choice...
18:18:13 <scarf> MySQL manages to not quite be a relational database
18:18:26 <scarf> I think it's useful for the market it targets, but I'm not sure how to define that market
18:18:59 <cpressey> Data integrity? Who needs *that*?
18:19:03 <cpressey> Pfft.
18:19:15 <scarf> cpressey: sometimes you don't, although I agree sometimes you do
18:19:46 <scarf> well, as in, sometimes you can get the same effect without transactiosn
18:19:49 <scarf> *transactions
18:19:52 <cpressey> scarf: I was merely trying to define that market, ... through parody
18:19:59 <scarf> ah
18:20:15 <AnMaster> <cpressey> If you don't have that kind of money for that kind of mediocrity, MySQL is a good choice... <-- no
18:20:22 <AnMaster> postgresql is a better choice
18:20:52 <cpressey> AnMaster: I meant that with MySQL you get a lot of mediocrity for your buck :)
18:21:12 <AnMaster> <scarf> well, as in, sometimes you can get the same effect without transactiosn <-- what about innodb
18:21:12 <cpressey> I prefer postgres, too.
18:21:49 <scarf> AnMaster: innodb doesn't really have transactions
18:21:51 <scarf> well, it does a bit
18:21:58 <scarf> more than myisam, but less than a sane database engine
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18:23:12 <cpressey> I wonder how long it'll take Oracle to completely destroy Java and Solaris.
18:23:54 <scarf> my guess is, they won't
18:24:09 <scarf> I suspect that Oracle bought Sun just to prevent Java falling into the hands of someone who wanted to get rid of it
18:24:24 <scarf> I suspect that most of the companies that rely on Oracle rely on Java too, you see...
18:25:16 <cpressey> Hm. And now, they just rely on Oracle...
18:25:45 <cpressey> "completely destroy" might have been a bad choice of term.
18:26:03 <scarf> yep, "lock-in" seems more likely or reasonable
18:26:51 <AnMaster> what about iced tea
18:26:59 <AnMaster> or whatever it is called
18:27:00 <scarf> AnMaster: or OpenJDK?
18:27:18 <scarf> those should both be out of oracle's control whatever happens
18:27:51 <scarf> (IcedTea and OpenJDK are both different completions of the bits of Sun's JDK that they were legally allowed to open-source (i.e. not licenced from a third party), which was most of it)
18:28:33 <cpressey> Actually, by "completely destroy" I was trying to evoke what happened to Perl from 5 to 6, and (to a lesser degree) in Python from 2 to 3.
18:28:39 <scarf> http://www.oracle.com/features/suncustomers.html
18:28:45 <scarf> cpressey: hmm, but aren't those good things?
18:28:50 <cpressey> scarf: !
18:29:04 <scarf> perl6 isn't really production-ready yet, but it's one of the most mindblowing wonderful languages I know, especially if you have an esolanger mindset
18:29:10 <cpressey> scarf: !!
18:29:24 <scarf> there are something like ten different ways of writing an anonymous function and passing arguments to it
18:29:55 <AnMaster> cpressey, what is wrong with python 3
18:30:04 <AnMaster> any more than python 2 that is
18:30:10 <AnMaster> they fixed some stuff in it iirc
18:30:20 <AnMaster> like integer division now being //
18:31:00 <cpressey> It would take too long for me to explain fully, I think. Until I can compose it, suffice to say, I think those languages both "jumped the shark" at those points.
18:31:09 <cpressey> And I suspect Java 7 will be similar.
18:31:21 <scarf> cpressey: oh, I can imagine the sharkjumping
18:31:25 <AnMaster> cpressey, I prefer python 3 to python 2
18:31:28 <scarf> there's a reason perl5 is still developed
18:31:38 <scarf> I think perl6 is a different language with an unfortunately similar name
18:31:39 <cheater2> oerjan: function level programming is not functional programming
18:31:41 <scarf> although not very different
18:32:47 <cheater2> oerjan: function level programming is something completely different. it is a way of describing programs by transforming functions with functionals. you cannot write your own functions, and you have no variables. the only way you can get new functions is by applying functionals to existing functions.
18:33:05 <cpressey> AnMaster: The main problem I have with Python 3 is that continuing to call it "Python" suggests that migrating your existing Python code base to it will be ... easy! A piece of cake! You should do it!
18:33:05 <scarf> cheater2: sort-of like concatenative langs?
18:33:38 <scarf> $ 5to6 some_complicated_perl5_file.pl
18:33:38 <cpressey> Lua seems to have a better philosophy about "progress", overall, I think. Just my opinion.
18:33:45 <AnMaster> cpressey, I have done it. wasn't too hard. Migrating an application using the C API to make python an embedded scripting language was worse
18:33:49 <AnMaster> and I have done that too
18:33:53 <cpressey> AnMaster: how many LoC?
18:34:04 <AnMaster> and thanks to ifdefs made it compile against both python 2 and 3
18:34:25 <AnMaster> cpressey, around 1000 or so in total there. Also done a few other programs
18:34:49 <scarf> AnMaster: 1000's almost short enough to rewrite
18:35:01 <cpressey> AnMaster: Depending on how many 3rd party packages?
18:35:03 <cheater2> scarf: yes
18:35:07 <AnMaster> cpressey, most could be done by using some of the patches suggested by 2to3 (some patches like changing "in range(...)" to "in list(range(...))" weren't required)
18:35:22 <AnMaster> cpressey, one third party one. why?
18:35:22 <cheater2> cpressey: that also applies to you (FLP is not in any way related to FP)
18:35:37 <AnMaster> cpressey, so the third party ones need to be ported first
18:35:48 <AnMaster> and yes that one was tricky, it was a C json library.
18:35:58 <AnMaster> which depended on byte rather than unicode strings
18:36:03 <cpressey> AnMaster: I'm just suggesting that your example is small, compared to lots of Python codebases out there.
18:36:23 <AnMaster> cpressey, true, it isn't completely painless, but not too bad I found
18:36:35 <AnMaster> cpressey, also why are you using third party libs? NIH NIH! ;P
18:37:02 <scarf> hmm, ideally code should be written to be so portable it can easily be transferred to a different /language/
18:37:19 <cpressey> cheater2: So design an imperative function-level programming language :)
18:37:31 <scarf> oh, of course, you just write it as compiled BF, that works
18:37:52 <AnMaster> scarf, that *always* works
18:38:00 <AnMaster> ;P
18:38:12 <scarf> gah, I just had an urge to mention PSOX again
18:38:13 <AnMaster> scarf, well you might need psox ;P
18:38:16 <scarf> snap
18:38:22 <AnMaster> argh same second here
18:39:01 <scarf> we've clearly become some sort of hivemind
18:39:17 <AnMaster> hah
18:39:54 <AnMaster> cpressey, iirc you had some erlang code on your website? do you still use it?
18:39:58 <AnMaster> (the language that is)
18:40:20 <cpressey> AnMaster: Unfortunately, I haven't touched Erlang in a while.
18:40:46 <AnMaster> cpressey, how long? since before the unicode support?
18:41:07 <cpressey> AnMaster: Yeah, probably about then. I remember it being discussed, I don't remember actually using it.
18:41:13 <scarf> AnMaster: oh no, you aren't going to launch into an issue of what RAND_MAX should be on a bignum system again, are you?
18:41:22 <AnMaster> scarf, not his fingerprint
18:41:27 <cpressey> The continuous growing size of the OTP distribution frightens me :)
18:41:41 <AnMaster> cpressey, well efunge is written in erlang. I'm not aware of any other bignum funge
18:42:02 <AnMaster> (also I'm the author of efunge, as well as cfunge)
18:42:04 <cpressey> Ah, well. Funge, like C, was never designed with bignum implementations in mind...
18:42:28 <AnMaster> cpressey, well yes indeed. Currently I'm considering bignum intercal
18:42:34 <AnMaster> which would be just craz
18:42:36 <AnMaster> crazy*
18:43:18 <AnMaster> cpressey, anyway I'm also working on a fingerprint for async threads in efunge. work in progress.
18:43:19 <cpressey> More than I care to put in my brain at the moment, yes.
18:43:26 <AnMaster> some part works
18:43:45 <cpressey> Interesting...
18:43:55 <AnMaster> cpressey, really t feels so silly when you have multiple cores and possibly multiple nodes.
18:43:59 <AnMaster> really,*
18:44:09 <AnMaster> so that is where this things comes into it
18:44:31 <AnMaster> actually the multiple nodes might pose a problem since I use an ets table for funge-space.
18:44:41 <AnMaster> multiple nodes scenario*
18:45:03 <cpressey> Well, internal threads don't seem very Funge-like somehow... traditionally multiple IPs take their place ... not to discourage the development of a fingerprint to do it, of course.
18:45:16 <cpressey> But when you introduce nodes.... yeah.
18:45:30 <cheater2> cpressey: i am not sure that imperative style would be good for FLP, since there is no assignment in FLP
18:45:37 <cpressey> Hard to see how to mesh those with Befunge's model.
18:45:42 <AnMaster> I guess I could switch to mnesia, but that would be horribly slow
18:45:43 <cheater2> cpressey: btw, porting from py2 to py3 should be easy
18:45:54 <cheater2> cpressey: not much harder than porting 2.6 to 2.5 for example
18:45:59 <cheater2> or 2.4
18:46:41 <AnMaster> cpressey, the fingerprint provides sync g, p and compare-and-swap (as G, P and C), the normal g and p (and other write/reads) are not guaranteed to be visible right away to other threads. Each thread can contain multiple IPs in theory (but efunge atm doesn't implement t)
18:47:20 <AnMaster> also these threads wouldn't block each other when waiting for IO, unlike IPs in befunge normally do
18:47:31 <scarf> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476766& https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=542689
18:47:32 <cpressey> cheater2: It doesn't have to be "good", but if you can't get away from using functions for everything, you'll have a hard time convincing me that function-level has no relation to functional programming.
18:48:08 <cheater2> cpressey: function level programming does not produce results like you expect from normal programs.
18:48:13 <AnMaster> cpressey, oh and I predict that distributed funge will be all the rage instead of java or .NET in 10 years ;P
18:48:19 <cheater2> the output of a function level program is a program that is not written in FLP.
18:49:15 <AnMaster> cheater2, is it per chance written in #!/bin/cat ?
18:49:18 <cheater2> as i understand it, FLP is a kind of meta-programming language which allows you to define programs which then could be executed using some other runtime.
18:49:26 <cpressey> cheater2: You keep making exceptional-sounding claims about function-level programming, but at the same time, you keep asking the channel what function-level programming would be like.
18:50:15 <cheater2> cpressey: i am making claims about what i understand it as. but i'm interested in what other people understand it as. if someone contradicts what i say, of course they are wrong. ;-)
18:52:12 <cheater2> cpressey: a sort of constructive argument for coming up with ideas and concepts :-)
18:53:42 <cpressey> cheater2: Well, I will say I don't see a lot of support for the idea that it's a meta-language. I totally agree that it's not the same as (what we know today as) functional programming. My guess would be that Backus' thesis was to make a strong distinction and separation between values, functions, and functionals. (Whereas functional programming emphasizes that functions are values, and can be functionals.)
18:54:56 <cheater2> yes, that is my impression too
18:54:58 <cpressey> But other than that, it seems to share a lot of ideas from functional programming. Like that you create new functions by transforming existing ones. And that a program is a mapping from inputs to outputs.
18:55:13 <cheater2> i think the idea was too completely separate the data from the program structure
18:55:39 <cheater2> so, yes, you had a program which calculates the area of a circle given the radius and the current value of pi
18:56:00 <cheater2> but what's important, i think, is that he also separated the description framework
18:56:00 <AnMaster> that reminds me of one thing in freebsd kernel source
18:56:02 <cpressey> cheater2: that might be. If so... one of my language designs is "function-level" in that sense
18:56:08 <AnMaster> #define SECONDS_PER_MINUTE 60
18:56:10 <AnMaster> yes really
18:56:19 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:56:20 <AnMaster> at least it wasn't a runtime variable
18:56:24 <cheater2> i.e. that program, which calculates the area, is not written in the same language it was defined in.
18:57:18 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/projects/larabee/ forbids literals in the program -- all values have to be read from input.
18:57:37 <cheater2> so, you define a program such as: print(multiply(arg2(),multiply(arg2(),arg2()))
18:57:51 <cpressey> But if you have the ability to copy values and perform logic, you can always hardcode logical constants by saying, e.g. X AND NOT X.
18:58:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:58:21 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:58:24 <cheater2> and this program definition is defined in CFLPL which is cheater's function level programming language
18:58:33 <cpressey> cheater2: ok ...
18:58:51 <cheater2> and then it gets compiled to: code which is executable in php.
18:59:11 <cheater2> i think i've heard of larabee before
18:59:34 <cheater2> ah, it was the name of the intel gpu thing
19:00:41 <cpressey> Hm, 2 r's in the spelling of the gpu thing, but yes. I wasn't aware of that
19:01:47 <cheater2> i wasn't aware of the 2 r's
19:01:47 <cheater2> :D
19:01:57 <cheater2> have you ever used happstack cpressey?
19:02:15 <AnMaster> <cpressey> But if you have the ability to copy values and perform logic, you can always hardcode logical constants by saying, e.g. X AND NOT X. <-- if it treats it like C does, as integers, then you could use that to get 0 and 1, then get the rest of the values from there
19:02:17 <cpressey> cheater2: No.
19:02:36 <cpressey> AnMaster: right, or if you have arithmetic, X-X = 0, X/X = 1.
19:02:49 <cpressey> (or DivByZero exception :) )
19:02:56 <AnMaster> yeah
19:03:27 <AnMaster> cpressey, and then you can do (basically) 2=1+1 4=2*2 and so on
19:03:58 <cheater2> it's fruitless, there's no point in doing that
19:04:02 <AnMaster> would it be possible to make a tc language where this wasn't possible
19:04:25 <cpressey> AnMaster: well, forbid copying maybe?
19:04:43 <cpressey> AnMaster: although I don't think that'll get you very far :)
19:04:46 <AnMaster> cpressey, would it be tc then?
19:04:54 <AnMaster> and yes I suspect you could work around it
19:05:10 <cpressey> AnMaster: If my work on Larabee isn't completely whack, I think it's not TC.
19:05:35 <cpressey> If you can't copy, then you rely on two inputs and you can't guarantee they're equal, so you can't guarantee a constant
19:05:49 <AnMaster> cpressey, I suspect it is possible to get known constants in any tc program that can not hard code literals (but that can use input)
19:05:57 <AnMaster> not 100% sure though
19:06:18 <cpressey> AnMaster: Definitely an interesting line of inquiry.
19:06:22 <AnMaster> cpressey, but then isn't the program bounded by the number of arguments
19:06:26 <AnMaster> and thus sub-tc
19:07:12 <cpressey> AnMaster: I don't think it is -- you don't need to hard-code much, to start off a computation that produces an infinite amount of output
19:07:27 <cpressey> Like, computing pi to an indefinate # of decimal places
19:07:28 <AnMaster> cpressey, so it is allowed to copy those values once calculated?
19:07:40 <AnMaster> just not use an argument more than once?
19:08:17 <AnMaster> then it could just do it like X = arg1(), One = X / X, Zero = X - X.
19:08:18 <cpressey> AnMaster: well, that's where it gets tricky :) I think most models of computation rely on being able to copy values internally.
19:08:18 -!- scarf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:08:33 <AnMaster> ( heh I just realised that was potentially valid erlang code)
19:08:43 <AnMaster> well, it would need div, but otherwise)
19:09:32 <AnMaster> (just define arg1() to something suitable calling something in the init module to get the arguments)
19:10:32 <AnMaster> cpressey, well if you can't copy then internally you are probably subtc
19:10:38 <cpressey> I just checked, and Larabee allows you to store and fetch input, and do arithmetic. However, to fetch a value from memory, you need to supply and index which... must come from input. So I still think Larabee is sub-TC.
19:10:48 <AnMaster> since you can use each argument, then those new things can be used as one input in another computation
19:11:15 <AnMaster> and then the these results only used once
19:11:16 <AnMaster> and so on
19:11:21 <AnMaster> until you had no more input
19:11:22 <AnMaster> hm
19:11:29 <AnMaster> I think you could do "not" forever
19:11:32 <AnMaster> since it is unary
19:11:35 <cpressey> Ugh, my brain is hurting now.
19:11:43 <cpressey> I should probably have lunch.
19:11:46 <AnMaster> but any binary operators would reduce the number of variables to use
19:11:49 <AnMaster> brb
19:13:14 <Gregor> Ohhey, ehird is gone?
19:13:17 <Gregor> Didn't even notice that.
19:14:28 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:14:54 <Gregor> That's actually a bit distressing. He's been more or less constantly present for a long time.
19:15:22 <oklopol> yeah ehird is hard to notice
19:15:38 <oklopol> you'd have to own a computer
19:16:36 <Gregor> In five days he'll join and see that the topic says "20 days since last ehird sighting" :P
19:17:26 <AnMaster> back
19:17:53 <AnMaster> Gregor, ... or not
19:18:13 <AnMaster> (depends on if we remember to update it ;P)
19:18:21 <Gregor> Well, true.
19:18:37 <Gregor> Oh btw, go to http://sun.com/
19:18:38 <Gregor> And cry.
19:18:40 <fizzie> 15 days since our last workplace accident.
19:19:13 <fizzie> fungot: seen ehird
19:19:14 <fungot> fizzie: are there documents of that in the general context of the article) contains essentially the whole difference between
19:19:40 -!- Gregor has set topic: RIP sun.com | 15 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:19:40 <fizzie> That's not a very good "seen" command, though I guess it *could* produce the correct reply too.
19:19:48 <Gregor> fizzie: 'snot likely :P
19:20:26 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:20:27 <oerjan> cheater2: i know that function level programming is not functional programming.
19:20:30 -!- cheater3 has joined.
19:21:19 <MissPiggy> cheater3 "Oh not this again"
19:21:21 <MissPiggy> NO U
19:21:48 <cheater3> what?
19:22:23 <oerjan> cheater3: oh FP doesn't refer to functional programming, it refers to backus' original function-level language
19:22:37 <cheater3> oh ok
19:22:55 <oerjan> (btw i'm answering old messages so i have no idea what you are saying now yet)
19:23:59 <AnMaster> <fizzie> fungot: seen ehird <-- implement such a command then
19:24:00 <fungot> AnMaster: deep macrology? beh, beh. i don't seem to have run into the fnord status.'
19:26:41 <fizzie> Didn't one of the bots already have such a thing?
19:26:55 <MissPiggy> hehe
19:27:01 <MissPiggy> fungot, style
19:27:01 <fungot> MissPiggy: you can always fnord the occasional scheme code here. use lisppaste.
19:27:24 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, but it might not be a good idea to fnord Scheme.
19:27:25 <fungot> fizzie: glyp glof! varsinkin se yksi ( jos se en on siell), jossa ne fnord niit fnord! fnord!" " jenwolf sucks!" " fnord
19:27:37 <fizzie> Heh, a rare bit of Finnish there.
19:28:29 <Deewiant> "glyp glof"?
19:28:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, you are heavy on the fnords over there!
19:28:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: I don't know what that was about.
19:29:22 <Deewiant> I am disconcerted by the notion that both "glyp" and "glof" occur often enough to not be "fnord"
19:29:59 <fizzie> "Often enough" means "more than once" here, but still.
19:30:42 <fizzie> 2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:52:44] < oerjan> !exec "Argle bargle, glof glyp!"PrntNl
19:30:42 <fizzie> 2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:52:48] < oklobot2> Argle bargle, glof glyp!
19:30:42 <fizzie> 2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:54:53] < oerjan> !exec "Argle bargle, "PrntNl "glyp glof!"PrntNl
19:30:42 <fizzie> 2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:55:00] < oklobot2> glyp glof!
19:30:49 <fizzie> Seems that you can blame oerjan.
19:30:57 <fizzie> (Well, you can always blame oerjan!)
19:31:15 <Deewiant> oerjan: Consider yourself blamed!
19:33:51 <fizzie> The thing with the ".seen" command was apparently a bot nicknamed "Endeavour", and I don't remember it at all; and it's been here pretty much only in 2008-04, and twice in 2009-01.
19:35:15 <oerjan> fizzie: lambdabot has a @seen command, i don't know about any here...
19:36:23 <oerjan> Deewiant: glyp and glof are famous H2G2 words
19:36:35 <oerjan> or wait
19:36:40 <oerjan> that's glop glyf
19:37:14 <fizzie> 2006-11.log:[2006-11-12 21:09:23] < oerjan> !bf_txtgen Argle bargle, glop glyf
19:37:14 <fizzie> 2008-11.log:[2008-11-15 00:32:26] < oerjan> fungot: argle bargle, glop glyf
19:37:15 <fungot> fizzie: don't throw the pic away, i'll check that out. how do you implement by yourself
19:37:17 <fizzie> It's always you.
19:37:28 <AnMaster> I could tell envbot to join, it has a seen command
19:37:41 <AnMaster> but due to being written in bash it isn't very esoteric
19:38:03 <fizzie> I'm not totally convinced we need one. And anyway, fungot ought to be clever enough to spontaneously develop one.
19:38:03 <fungot> fizzie: hey! eso already exists. and, instruction and operand ( including numbers)
19:38:44 <oerjan> argh no, not the blaming!
19:39:53 * oerjan is no a jour
19:39:55 <oerjan> *now
19:41:09 <AnMaster> <oerjan> argh no, not the blaming! <-- is it just me, or was this a very vague and obscure discworld reference?
19:41:12 <oerjan>
19:41:17 <AnMaster> (iirc, one of the tiffany series?)
19:41:41 <oerjan> not a chance, unless my unconscious has read more pratchett than me
19:41:48 <AnMaster> ah...
19:44:38 * oerjan would not rule that out entirely though
19:46:48 <oklopol> turns out sometimes his recalls really are vague
19:47:09 <oerjan> you think?
19:48:38 <oklopol> i haven't caught that many errors
19:48:52 <oklopol> compared to the amount of vaguations
19:49:53 <oerjan> well obviously my really vague recalls are about ancient mysteries lost in time that you youngsters would have no hope of checking *MWAHAHAHA*
19:50:37 <oerjan> either that, or possibly i left no witnesses.
20:01:32 <cpressey> "take only photographs, leave no witnesses." i like that.
20:04:54 <oerjan> i'm not really that big on photographs either
20:06:24 <cpressey> Oooh yeah, they can be used as evidence of a court of law, cain't they. Well nix that then.
20:06:38 <cpressey> s/of/in/
20:06:57 <oerjan> of, too, i believe
20:07:33 <oerjan> also an excellent place to leave no witnesses
20:23:30 -!- MissPiggy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:30:32 <Gregor> HEY that's a segue to http://codu.org/projects/zee/
20:30:38 -!- MissPiggy has joined.
20:30:38 <Gregor> Thanks for the segue guys
20:30:41 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:31:20 <oklopol> i've had that idea
20:31:31 <oklopol> i think i almost considered doing something with it
20:31:38 <oklopol> or well, maybe not *almost*
20:31:55 <oklopol> but not much less
20:32:11 <Gregor> Have you had PLOT ideas? :P
20:32:24 <oklopol> no. plots make games impure.
20:32:29 <oklopol> as do "based on"'s
20:32:35 <Gregor> :P
20:32:58 * oklopol likes his games flash and ball.
20:33:16 <oklopol> ball being the objects, flash being how the game is implemented
20:33:36 <oklopol> but umm plot...
20:33:54 <fizzie> "Based on true story" games!
20:34:18 <oerjan> based on a filthy lie
20:35:09 <oklopol> Gregor: i might consider thinking about a plot, in the future maybe, or not.
20:35:24 <oklopol> would be so awesome
20:35:30 -!- speeskees has joined.
20:35:36 <oklopol> if it was like a 10 hour game, but you just have one crime scene photo
20:37:54 -!- speeskees has left (?).
20:38:22 <oklopol> wouldn't be a problem to do realistic rendering for the graphics :P
20:50:23 -!- adam_d has joined.
21:09:01 <Gregor> Nearly every definition of "execute" is nearly antonymous with "terminate". Except for the most common one, which is synonymous. Funny thing, English.
21:19:19 <oklopol> and the most common one is what?
21:19:44 * oerjan executes a swatting, terminating oklopol -----###
21:20:48 <Gregor> As in execution. Mr. Bobbert was executed.
21:20:48 <olsner> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL <-- hmm, this is interesting
21:21:00 <olsner> try to build a polyglot in all variants of that language :)
21:21:12 <oklopol> if you mean the one that involved killing, i checked two dictionaries, in one it was the second to last meaning, in the other one there wasn't even a mention of that use. granted, these are pretty crappy dictionaries
21:21:17 <oklopol> *involves
21:21:24 <oerjan> also, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperPower
21:21:26 <cpressey> "execute" = euphemism for "execute a death warrant"
21:21:37 <Gregor> Yes, I know.
21:21:41 <oklopol> yeah, i'm pretty sure that's the least used meaning
21:21:41 <Gregor> But that doesn't matter.
21:21:45 <Gregor> That's how words come to be.
21:21:47 <Gregor> oklopol: ???
21:21:52 <Gregor> oklopol: Maybe for a computer scientist.
21:22:01 <oklopol> and based on the dictionaries
21:22:26 <Gregor> Dictionaries don't index by meaning frequency ...
21:22:29 <oklopol> checked two other web ones and there was no mention of killing
21:22:32 <oklopol> true...
21:22:58 <Gregor> Meaning #3 at dictionary.coim is: " to inflict capital punishment on; put to death according to law."
21:23:07 <Gregor> I argue that that is the most common meaning understood by English speakers.
21:23:21 <pikhq> oklopol: It may not be in sane countries, but I'm in a country with the death sentence.
21:23:28 <oklopol> heh
21:23:29 <cpressey> I think what's more remarkable is the frequency of use of euphemisms in English-speaking countries...
21:23:30 <pikhq> Executions, y'know, *happen* here.
21:23:51 <Gregor> cpressey: I don't think it's legit to say it's still a euphemism for that. It's just taken on that meaning.
21:24:04 <oklopol> that's true... i think of executing as a term you'd only need when talking about 14th century france
21:24:10 <oklopol> i mean the killing one
21:24:33 <cpressey> Gregor: I hold a different opinion - the euphemistic meaning has become the dominant one, but it's still a euphemism.
21:24:39 <oerjan> 14th century france, 21st century US, what's the difference *ducks*
21:25:01 <oklopol> ducks are very different in usa, yes
21:25:37 <pikhq> Gameboy emulators without any sort of throttling...
21:25:43 <pikhq> Hard to play most games with.
21:25:44 <Gregor> pikhq: lawl
21:25:46 <pikhq> *Amazing* for RPGs.
21:26:03 <pikhq> "Suck it, grinding.":
21:26:16 <Gregor> THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID
21:28:15 <oklopol> there really should be something that lists frequencies of different meanings of words, at least a rough estimate
21:29:22 <Gregor> This is Mr. Command. Execute him!
21:29:23 <oerjan> may be hard to determine
21:29:47 <oklopol> or not.
21:29:56 <oklopol> maybe in 1% of cases
21:30:08 <oklopol> "does this word mean do or kill?"
21:30:48 <oerjan> i mean for an entire dictionary
21:31:05 <oklopol> not that do and execute are actually synonyms in any context
21:31:51 <oklopol> maybe it could be so rough an estimate it's actually just random numbers
21:32:19 <fizzie> oklopol: Wordnet has count-of-occurrences-in-tagged-texts, which sort of tries to be an estimate for that.
21:32:35 <fizzie> oklopol: It's just that not all meanings even have any counts there.
21:33:18 <fizzie> It sort of works for "real common" / "not so common" distinguishment; for red as an adjective:
21:33:20 <fizzie> The adj red has 3 senses (first 3 from tagged texts)
21:33:21 <fizzie>
21:33:21 <fizzie> 1. (43) red, reddish, ruddy, blood-red, carmine, cerise, cherry, cherry-red, crimson, ruby, ruby-red, scarlet -- (of a color at the end of the color spectrum (next to orange); resembling the color of blood or cherries or tomatoes or rubies)
21:33:21 <fizzie> 2. (8) crimson, red, violent -- (characterized by violence or bloodshed; "writes of crimson deeds and barbaric days"- Andrea Parke; "fann'd by Conquest's crimson wing"- Thomas Gray; "convulsed with red rage"- Hudson Strode)
21:33:22 <fizzie> 3. (7) crimson, red, reddened, red-faced, flushed -- ((especially of the face) reddened or suffused with or as if with blood from emotion or exertion; "crimson with fury"; "turned red from exertion"; "with puffy reddened eyes"; "red-faced and violent"; "flushed (or crimson) with embarrassment")
21:34:07 <oklopol> well, execute?
21:34:22 <fizzie> 1. (2) execute, put to death -- (kill as a means of socially sanctioned punishment; "In some states, criminals are executed")
21:34:22 <fizzie> 2. (1) execute -- (murder in a planned fashion; "The Mafioso who collaborated with the police was executed")
21:34:22 <fizzie> 3. (1) carry through, accomplish, execute, carry out, action, fulfill, fulfil -- (put in effect; "carry out a task"; "execute the decision of the people"; "He actioned the operation")
21:34:27 <fizzie> The other four meanings don't have a count.
21:34:32 <fizzie> Or have a count of zero, if you prefer.
21:35:06 <oklopol> why would you use a 14th century dictionary
21:35:38 <fizzie> It is up to you how much a meaning you derive from one or two mentions.
21:36:05 <oerjan> to spelle properlie, of course
21:36:49 <oklopol> the less data i have, the wilder i can let my imagination run when interpreting it.
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21:39:13 <Gregor> *rewinding*
21:39:16 <GreaseMonkey> ...i never used an oracle thing in my life
21:39:24 <Gregor> cpressey: That seems like a very prescriptivist approach to language.
21:39:32 <Gregor> GreaseMonkey: YOU HAVE NOW
21:40:01 <Gregor> cpressey: And IMHO prescriptivism is pretty silly for English in particular, and language in general.
21:40:06 <GreaseMonkey> Gregor: the versions of java i have were pre-oracle
21:40:06 <cpressey> Gregor: Prescriptivist? I'm not the one claiming throwing around "not legit to say that" :)
21:40:10 <cpressey> s/claiming//
21:40:37 <GreaseMonkey> anyways, i'm hoping they'll keep releasing open stuff
21:40:45 <Gregor> cpressey: Fair enough :P
21:41:08 <Gregor> GreaseMonkey: I was assuming that all Sun things, past and present, were now Oracle things. And in that case, it's amusing that you think Java is the only Sun thing you use.
21:41:24 <oklopol> prescriptivism is the only way mankind could ever escape the horrors of natural language
21:41:36 <GreaseMonkey> it's probably not the only thing
21:41:40 <GreaseMonkey> uhh...
21:41:48 <GreaseMonkey> what else do you think i'd use?
21:42:00 <GreaseMonkey> i've really only done j2se and j2me
21:42:03 <GreaseMonkey> afaik
21:42:09 <Gregor> Do use any Unix system?
21:42:17 <oklopol> what, you think language is just going to *evolve* into something sensible? do you know how ridiculous that sounds...
21:42:37 <Gregor> Sun has tentacles in every corner of nearly every Unix system. Maybe not huge portions, but little bits everywhere.
21:43:38 <GreaseMonkey> i use freebsd here, linux on my lappy
21:43:46 <GreaseMonkey> not using any zfs.
21:44:08 <GreaseMonkey> i actually use the diablo jdk
21:44:11 <GreaseMonkey> on freebsd
21:44:44 <Gregor> Sun is a contributor to the Linux kernel, X11, GNOME off the top of my head.
21:44:47 * oerjan notes that augur isn't here, must be why oklopol hasn't been mauled yet
21:44:56 <Gregor> And aside from that, everything else. Everything.
21:45:33 <GreaseMonkey> OK i'm having trouble finding the j2se library documentation
21:45:34 <cpressey> Oh no, Sun has contributed to open-source products I use every day. How shall I ever escape their diabolical grip.
21:45:37 <oerjan> everything under the sun
21:46:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:46:16 <Gregor> I'm not saying anything negative about Sun, I'm just saying that the not-insubstantial possibility that they'll stop being the Sun we know and love is bad.
21:46:46 <oerjan> cpressey: you'll have to cleanse it in holy water, i hear jews do that
21:46:50 -!- augur has joined.
21:47:11 <GreaseMonkey> found it: http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/
21:47:12 <oerjan> mind you i'm not sure if they apply it to electronics
21:47:33 <oklopol> probably applies well to programs
21:48:00 <fizzie> Misread "Sun has contraband in open-source products I use every day". That's quite a statement.
21:48:20 <GreaseMonkey> dear oracle: why did it take about 5 clicks from the front page to get to the j2se API documentation?
21:48:37 <Gregor> GreaseMonkey: Because you should have gone to java.sun.com ?
21:48:52 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:49:02 <fizzie> I tend to google for "java api" and go from there; never bothered to bookmark the thing.
21:49:02 <cpressey> So glad I'm not a "Java person".
21:49:15 <GreaseMonkey> ...hmmkay... i shall hopefully remember that
21:49:17 <cpressey> No offense to any "Java people" here of course.
21:49:31 <Gregor> Java people need more offense :P
21:49:39 <oerjan> i don't think we have many indonesians here
21:50:01 <GreaseMonkey> takes 4 clicks
21:50:25 <GreaseMonkey> i attempted to make a java decompiler once
21:50:26 <oklopol> read those two sentences as one, "oerjan: i don't think we need any indonesians here"
21:50:32 <GreaseMonkey> i could get the bytecode alright
21:50:45 <oklopol> that was slightly out of character for oerjan
21:50:53 <GreaseMonkey> however i think i was lacking in knowledge of decompilers
21:50:53 <fizzie> I guess I could share a homework question answer reply from comp.lang.c I found amusing: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/a64002d547d3a95f
21:50:57 <oerjan> *slightly*
21:51:34 <GreaseMonkey> ...people still use usenet?
21:51:51 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, yes of course
21:52:07 <AnMaster> don't you?
21:52:11 <GreaseMonkey> nope.
21:52:15 <fizzie> Of course they do; clc is a very very active group. Admittedly it's mostly full of spam and bizarre madness, as opposed to on-topic things, but still.
21:52:19 <GreaseMonkey> unless i'm encountering archives and stuff
21:52:26 <Deewiant> Hence, clcm.
21:52:41 <Gregor> lol
21:52:46 <Gregor> fizzie: How delightfully useless :P
21:52:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: What, and not read all that spinoza1111 stuff?
21:53:03 <Deewiant> Yes, exactly. :-P
21:53:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: And all Kenny McCormick crossposts between comp.lang.c and rec.games.bridge?
21:53:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, clcm?
21:54:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: comp.lang.c.moderated.
21:54:04 <AnMaster> ah
21:54:06 <AnMaster> oh
21:54:08 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yes, those too.
21:54:12 <AnMaster> so clc was not about clc-intercal?
21:54:15 <AnMaster> argh
21:54:19 <AnMaster> fooling me like that
21:54:28 <Deewiant> You are as easily fooled as ever.
21:54:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: Given that I had mentioned the full "comp.lang.c" name in my previous comment, I thought the abbreviation safe.
21:54:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: That price is too high to pay for some peace and quiet.
21:55:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, meh
21:55:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, I didn't read the full url
21:55:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's also in the text before the URL.
21:55:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, "meh"
21:56:07 <AnMaster> if I can't spot it when re-reading, why would I have spotted it first time ;P
22:01:01 <cheater3> fizzie: what's the best way to do usenet?
22:01:07 <cheater3> fizzie: hopefully, free.
22:01:53 <fizzie> cheater3: I don't really know the best way; I just read using my ISP's NNTP server and slrn at the moment (though the actual newsreader changes from time to time).
22:02:07 <cheater3> hrm :(
22:02:23 <cheater3> i don't have an nntp server.. i don't even have 'an isp' (i travel a lot around da world)
22:02:27 <fizzie> Someone -- I don't remember who -- used http://www.eternal-september.org/ for that.
22:02:41 <fizzie> It should be somewhat free.
22:03:00 <oklopol> cheater3: what game do you cheat at to have the money for that?
22:03:12 <cheater3> oklopol: your mom
22:03:13 <Deewiant> Number of connections per day per user limited? That sounds like it sucks
22:03:14 <fizzie> (Though with some connection limits and no binaries-style groups.)
22:03:21 <cheater3> fizzie: that looks useful, thanks
22:03:35 <Deewiant> fizzie: Does your ISP provide the binaries-style groups?
22:03:42 <cheater3> Deewiant: probably not.
22:03:49 <cheater3> Deewiant: you use easynews for that.
22:04:42 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:04:43 <Deewiant> I was asking because he said explicitly that eternal-september doesn't, whereas it seems to me that it's more noteworthy if something does.
22:04:59 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think they do, though I might be wrong. "grep ^alt.binaries newsrc-nebula | wc -l" at least says 1911, but I haven't checked if the groups contain any content.
22:06:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: I do remember that Saunalahti (or Scifi) used to, because they also had a nifty service that decoded all alt.binaries groups automagically into files on a network filesystem that was visible on their shell server.
22:06:45 <Deewiant> heh
22:06:49 <Deewiant> How long ago was that?
22:07:18 <fizzie> I would guess late 1990s.
22:08:30 <Deewiant> alt.binaries.music appears to have 75k headers here at least; let's see if there's any content
22:08:39 <fizzie> There was something like a hundred gigabytes (this was a big deal back then) full of copyrighted software and porn.
22:08:47 <fizzie> And possibly a few other files, but that was the majority of it.
22:08:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, that link: "Today is September, 6000 1993, the september that never ends "
22:08:55 <AnMaster> that should possibly (not) be celebrated
22:09:35 <fizzie> Hey, is it the 6000th day today (in some time zones)? Almost went by without noticing.
22:09:38 <AnMaster> ais523 would be interested in it
22:09:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I just mentioned it!
22:10:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, it was a reaction to that.
22:10:41 <Gregor> TIME FOR MOAR MST3K
22:10:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, "hey" implied (to me) "look what I found out"
22:11:04 <fizzie> No, it was "hey" in the "surprised interjection" sense.
22:11:13 <Deewiant> It does look like there's data there, too. So apparently Welho provides.
22:11:16 <AnMaster> hrrm
22:11:18 <AnMaster> very well then
22:11:28 <Deewiant> Elisa didn't, IIRC.
22:12:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, didn't what?
22:12:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, and in addition to the news-decoding, they had a huge "/work" directory that was also usable for sharing large files with other Saunalahti customers; that one was also full of pirated software too, though not as much porn.
22:13:01 <fizzie> Deewiant: See e.g. http://sektori.com/uutinen/saunalahtea-moititaan-piratismin/1457/
22:13:15 <fizzie> I think it got discontinued after getting official notice like that.
22:13:30 <fizzie> But before that, it had been quietly distributing data for at least some years.
22:13:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Provide binary newsgroups.
22:13:51 <AnMaster> ah
22:14:01 <oklopol> "syytää" :P
22:14:25 <AnMaster> newszilla6.xs4all.nl provides binaries
22:14:35 <AnMaster> readonly only (afaik)
22:14:41 <AnMaster> also that is ipv6 only
22:17:55 <fizzie> Deewiant: And as for the "number of connections per day limited" of eternal-september.org, the limit is 1200 connections/day/user. You can connect 50 times per hour, almost once per minute; I would think you need to have a rather terminal combination of Usenet addiction and short attention span to run into that limit, assuming you just connect-read-disconnect (or even connect-fetch-disconnect-read) instead of automagically polling a lot.
22:18:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, why not keep-alive?
22:18:52 <Deewiant> What does "one connection" over NNTP actually do? Download one message?
22:19:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: No, you can keep it open pretty much as long as you wish, and I think newsreaders usually do.
22:19:54 <fizzie> Though that last part is just conjecture; certainly it'd be possible to write a newsreader that opens a separate connection whenever you click on a message.
22:19:54 <Deewiant> Ah, that's not much of a limit then indeed.
22:21:24 <AnMaster> night →↓←↑
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22:23:16 <fizzie> Doing a cartwheel while going to sleep, how suspiciously athletic.
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22:24:15 <cheater3> fizzie: what is the significance of september 1993?
22:24:52 <Deewiant> cheater3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
22:26:03 <cheater3> ahh haha
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22:34:56 <cpressey> Interesting. September 1993 is when Befunge was born :)
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22:35:16 <oerjan> it's actually all your fault!
22:37:58 <cpressey> Yes, I'm proud of how much Befunge, and esolangs in general, have really helped lowered the social standards of teh internets.
22:38:27 * cpressey makes directionless squawking sounds
22:39:42 <oerjan> `define squawk
22:39:44 <HackEgo> * utter a harsh abrupt scream \ * the noise of squawking; "she awoke to the squawk of chickens"; "the squawk of car horns" \ * gripe: complain; "What was he hollering about?"
22:40:05 <oerjan> oh dear
22:40:23 <oerjan> well i guess madness takes its toll
22:41:08 <oerjan> that'll be 5 quarters
22:49:06 <cpressey> Oh, the madness I blame squarely on shared objects.
22:49:44 <oerjan> hmm
23:03:15 <oklopol> squared objects
23:07:16 <cpressey> Right on! Unit test segfaulted!
23:11:34 <oklopol> eh? can't you just multiply by it and check if the result is the same?
23:11:45 <oklopol> oh shit unit
23:12:00 <oklopol> yeah okay that's much harder to check
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23:12:12 <oerjan> i bet he tested the units but forgot the nulls
23:13:20 <oklopol> nulls are easy to test for, units are sort of hard. unless it's a field, then it's pretty easy.
23:13:25 <coppro> great, now we have to write null tests to go with our null tests?
23:14:00 <coppro> err
23:14:06 <coppro> null tests to go with our unit tests
23:14:23 <oerjan> clearly. any ring theorist could have told you that.
23:15:14 <oklopol> i can only assume cpressey is some sort of an applied ring theorist
23:15:52 <cheater3> sup oklopol
23:16:23 <oerjan> both sup and inf lately, i hear
23:16:49 <oerjan> but maybe i shouldn't spread private conversation
23:17:13 <oklopol> hehe
23:18:03 <oklopol> also coding theory, but i figured you wouldn't be that interested
23:18:19 <oerjan> i find it a bit too cryptic
23:18:26 <Sgeo_> Hm, someone pinged me
23:18:49 <FireFly> Well, I pong you
23:19:29 <oklopol> was trying to figure out what exactly makes a code C in 2^n a perfect tile, that is, one for which you can find such a_i's that a_i+C's exactly partition 2^n
23:19:31 * Sgeo_ will check logs as soon as Google Chrome recovers.
23:19:37 <olsner> ah, string rewriting, a prefect match for numerical computing
23:19:42 <olsner> *perfect
23:19:46 <oklopol> sizes are obvious, as is the fact linear codes and their translates all form perfect tiles
23:20:05 <oklopol> but there are codes that form perfect tiles that have seemingly no structure
23:20:39 <olsner> I might have incidentally built a thue interpreter too
23:20:46 <oklopol> (translate = take the code and add something to it)
23:21:02 <oerjan> what a curious incident
23:21:43 <oklopol> basically i've been playing with 2^4 hypercubes for hours
23:22:09 <Sgeo_> ...according to the logs, no one pinged me
23:22:12 <Sgeo_> *mindboggle*
23:22:15 <oerjan> and yet you still appear human
23:22:24 <oklopol> there you go
23:22:50 <oklopol> okay i'll do the following sleeping now:
23:28:32 <cpressey> * sleeping on my side * sleeping on my back * sleeping while standing
23:29:19 * Sgeo_ accidentally got pina colada chapstick, and doesn't even know what pina colada is
23:30:11 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi%C3%B1a_colada
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23:39:50 <cpressey> Too many ideas, too little time.
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23:49:15 <cpressey> olsner: I read that as "I might have accidentally built a thue interpreter too"
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23:54:14 <olsner> cpressey: I meant too as in "as well as what I was attempting to build"
23:54:56 <olsner> having already built about 3 of those while actually attempting to
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00:24:25 <olsner> d'oh, I'm missing pieces, this isn't even TC
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07:49:41 <oklopol> hehe, they're doing something with the pipes and absolutely no water should go in the drain; i've already managed to use the sink twice and flush the toilet once
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08:11:10 <fizzie> oklopol: You literally give a crap about their instructions, then.
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08:18:24 <oklopol> actually it was pee, if you must know
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08:18:40 <oklopol> i probably would've realized during a longer operation
08:21:51 <fizzie> In retrospect, I'm not sure I actually wanted to start a conversation about this.
08:24:26 <oklopol> in this context, i'll interpret "retrospect" as "looking at ass".
08:24:54 <oklopol> although i guess that makes no sense
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08:27:08 <fizzie> With all retrospect due, I really wasn't looking at your ass.
08:28:35 <oklopol> it's fine
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08:30:37 <fizzie> I'm going to have to take your word for that, though I'm sure it is.
08:30:42 <lereah_> Does linux have a standard way to read djvu files?
08:30:48 <lereah_> Or do I need to get one
08:31:25 <Deewiant> I don't know of any "standard" way but viewers do exist
08:31:41 <oklopol> you want to get a way from here?
08:32:31 <lereah_> Not sure I can get one though
08:32:34 <lereah_> I be at zerk
08:32:37 <lereah_> werk*
08:32:47 <fizzie> Evince, which is everywhere, has some support for it, I think.
08:32:50 <lereah_> Not sure you can install anything on that computer
08:34:14 <fizzie> At least djvu's mentioned on http://projects.gnome.org/evince/ and Evince's probably installed on anything Gnomish.
08:35:15 <lereah_> I'm on scientific linux, is it gnomish?
08:35:37 <lereah_> Yeah, I think it is
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08:37:09 <lereah_> Well, I tried typing evince on the console and it didn"t work, and that's about all my knowledge of linux
08:37:16 <lereah_> How do I open it?
08:38:54 <fizzie> If it's there, "evince" in a terminal should run it. You may be out of luck there.
08:39:05 <lereah_> Balls.
08:39:27 <lereah_> i tried finding an online converter to pdf but no luck
08:39:39 <lereah_> Can someone convert the file to pdf for me?
08:39:59 <lereah_> It is http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Russell/Quantum%20Mechanics%20And%20Path%20Integrals%20-%20R.%20Feynman,%20A.%20Hibbs.djvu
08:40:17 <fizzie> KDE's "Okular" supposedly supports djvu too.
08:40:19 <oklopol> ooh math
08:41:11 <lereah_> No, SCIENCE!
08:41:20 <lereah_> (it are physics)\
08:41:53 <oklopol> hmm oh quantum mechanics
08:41:54 <fizzie> oklopol: I'm at the lectures of a course from the maths department at the moment; so technically this is math too. (But it's about numeric methods, so maybe it doesn't count.)
08:42:01 <oklopol> i just read blah blah path integrals
08:42:30 <oklopol> ofc quantum mechanics is certainly more interesting than path integrals
08:42:46 <lereah_> It is pretty neato torpedo
08:42:50 <lereah_> See, the concept is
08:42:59 <oklopol> fizzie: yell "woohoo math!"
08:43:06 <lereah_> A particle in this theory actually travels on EVERY POSSIBLE PATH
08:43:40 <oklopol> so how exactly does the path integral come in?
08:44:16 <oklopol> and does it travel in R^3?
08:44:18 <lereah_> Well, you have to do a sum over all path to find the probabilities of finding the particle here or there
08:45:22 <oklopol> i guess we could take the space of all continuous paths, and give it a natural measure obtained by some sort of integral average
08:45:34 <oklopol> "sum over all path" isn't specific enough
08:45:54 <lereah_> Yeah, it is rarely easy to find
08:46:07 <lereah_> I'm doing one right now, for instance
08:46:32 <oklopol> i mean you can't sum over all the paths, there's an uncountable number of them
08:46:35 <lereah_> You decompose time in little increments, and for the paths, you do all the possible turns you can do
08:46:42 <lereah_> Then you take the limit
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08:49:00 <oklopol> all the possible turns is still an uncountable amount; and is this in R^3?
08:49:15 <lereah_> Iunno
08:49:21 <lereah_> Here's the example
08:49:27 <oklopol> you don't know or you don't know what R^3 is?
08:49:39 <lereah_> It is in R^3
08:49:50 <lereah_> A particle goes at the speed of light in 1D
08:50:10 <lereah_> At every time increment, it can do a turn
08:50:29 <oklopol> yeah in 1D you can do it combinatorially
08:50:42 <lereah_> So to go from point A to point B, you sum over all the possible turns at every increment of tine
08:50:57 <lereah_> In the end it's ~ an exponential
08:51:15 <lereah_> (by the way can someone convert it to pdf)
08:51:41 <oklopol> what i would do is google "dvu to pdf"
08:51:48 <lereah_> I did
08:51:56 <lereah_> But I can't install softwares here
08:52:12 <oklopol> well and "online converter" ofc, i never install anything
08:53:09 <oklopol> nothing on the first few pages
08:53:22 <oklopol> i guess no one's invented a converter
08:56:12 <lereah_> (that is why I ask)
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08:59:45 <oerjan> <oklopol> hehe, they're doing something with the pipes and absolutely no water should go in the drain; i've already managed to use the sink twice and flush the toilet once
08:59:53 <oerjan> never trust a human to change his habits
09:00:06 <oklopol> or think about what he's actually doing
09:00:53 <oklopol> i was thinking about teaching math to innocent children
09:01:15 <oerjan> _evil_ math i assume
09:01:53 <oklopol> it's not the math that's evil, it just makes humans evil
09:02:04 <oklopol> MWAHAHAH
09:02:23 <oerjan> it turns them into rational, uncaring beasts
09:03:10 <lereah_> Even irrational numbers?
09:03:38 <oerjan> it's a bit complex
09:04:21 <oklopol> i think it's natural enough
09:04:27 <oklopol> we need more number fields
09:04:42 <oklopol> ...with funny names
09:04:44 <oerjan> oklopol: what a surreal idea
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09:08:44 <lereah_> There's plenty of number sets
09:09:00 <lereah_> Constructible, computable, compressible, definable
09:09:22 <oklopol> and how are those names funny
09:09:41 <oklopol> that's the problem with contemporary mathematics, things aren't given funny names
09:09:59 <oklopol> and what's a contructible number
09:10:11 <oklopol> ohhh
09:10:22 <oklopol> right ofc i know those
09:11:13 <lereah_> Also algebraic and transcendental
09:11:16 <lereah_> Shit like dat
09:12:52 <oklopol> what's the definition of a compressible number?
09:13:13 <oklopol> i think you have to be careful or it might not be a field
09:13:32 <lereah_> A number you can write a finite sized program for
09:13:52 <oklopol> oh. then what's the definition of computable
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09:14:00 <oklopol> i thought you'd have to be able to compress it
09:14:16 <lereah_> Lemme check
09:14:50 <lereah_> Hm, I might remember the wrong name for it
09:15:46 <oerjan> no, finite sized program applies to compressible strings, not real numbers, i think
09:15:56 <oerjan> and the program must be shorter than the string
09:18:25 <oklopol> i wonder if there are puns involving Z[sqrt(2)]
09:18:37 <oerjan> compressible number doesn't seem to be a real term
09:18:46 <oklopol> or Z(sqrt(2)) if we want to emphasize fieldness i suppose
09:19:07 <lereah_> It might have been incompressible
09:20:12 <oerjan> no better
09:20:39 <lereah_> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~paulv/schedule06/intro.ps
09:20:57 <oerjan> if i don't put quotes around, google wants to give me (un)compressible flows instead
09:21:33 * oerjan doesn't do postscript
09:22:53 <oklopol> Unrecoverable error: configurationerror in setpagedevice
09:22:54 <oklopol> Operand stack:
09:22:54 <oklopol> false --nostringval--
09:22:54 <oklopol> Failed to open device or install ViewerPreProcess hook: returns -26
09:23:02 <oklopol> me neither, it seems
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09:42:40 <lereah_> oklopol : http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/9302097v1
09:42:51 <lereah_> If you want the path integral mathematically
09:43:04 <lereah_> It describes it a bit
09:43:16 <lereah_> With the hilarious wiener measure
09:43:30 <oklopol> ah, now there's a funny name
09:45:04 <lereah_> It was waiting for you
09:45:35 <lereah_> ":This calculus in functional space (“Wiener measure”) attracted
09:45:36 <lereah_> several mathematicians"
09:45:42 <lereah_> They love wiener measures
09:47:41 <oklopol> "this file is damaged and could not be viewed"
09:47:43 <oklopol> :P
09:47:55 <lereah_> Nigga you got file proble;s
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12:34:19 <lereah_> How can I check what Linux I have?
12:35:30 <fizzie> "lsb_release -a" if it happens to support that LSB thing, but not all do.
12:35:54 <lereah_> k
12:36:05 <fizzie> If it does, the "Description" field is most likely a human-readable sensible thing.
12:36:29 <lereah_> Scientific Linux
12:36:32 <lereah_> Damn it
12:36:43 <lereah_> I guess it's close to some other linux
12:36:46 <lereah_> Let's check
12:37:28 <fizzie> It seems to be at least slightly related to Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
12:38:15 <lereah_> It is a free and open source operating system based on Red Hat Enterprise Linux and aims to be 100% compatible with and based on Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
12:40:27 <fizzie> You talk like a free, web-based, collaborative, multilingual encyclopedia project.
12:40:51 <lereah_> I sure do
12:40:56 <lereah_> Forgot the quotes
12:41:09 <lereah_> I don't like to type too much here, the keyboard is qwerty
12:41:49 <oklopol> ugh, who still uses qwerty
12:42:09 <oklopol> well i do but you know that's not relevant.
12:42:17 <fizzie> ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvxyz ,.-?!";: -- there, you can copy-paste most of the things you'll ever need out of that; no need for typing.
12:42:24 <lereah_> France does not
12:42:58 <fizzie> Visited CERN once, the azerty keyboards in the terminals there were confusing.
12:43:29 <oklopol> isn't azerty even stupider
12:43:58 <lereah_> Well, confirmed : I can't install a software here without admin priviledges
12:48:24 <oklopol> they're drilling in harmonic major second outside, i love it
12:49:21 <lereah_> drill baby drill
12:49:24 <oklopol> haha, a tritone xD
12:49:57 <oklopol> i can't concentrate with all this beautiful music around me
12:50:26 <lereah_> Put on some shitty music then
12:51:15 <oklopol> or i could just not concentrate
12:56:58 <fizzie> Debian package single-line descriptions are sometimes less than informative; what'd you expect from "gaia - interface to the planet"?
12:57:17 <lereah_> Some Pandora shit
12:57:28 <lereah_> Just plug in your ponytail
12:57:50 <fizzie> It is, in fact, "an Earth viewer that lets you navigate around the globe and zoom into almost any place".
12:58:02 <fizzie> I'm not sure how that's interfacing with the planet, but.
12:59:19 <oklopol> okay what am i wearing
12:59:42 <oklopol> well okay that's not fair, i'm not outside
13:01:54 <fizzie> It would be much more interfacingy if I could also change what you're wearing.
13:02:06 <oklopol> hmm, true
13:02:28 <oklopol> that sounds really scary after your questions about my ass
13:02:46 <oklopol> or how did the conversation go again
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13:22:48 <deschutron> RIP
13:24:45 <deschutron> java.sun.com is there, but they changed the colours, and it looks less welcoming.
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16:00:09 <Gregor> deschutron: Soon it'll forward to oracle.com/ogppl , and be renamed to the Oracle General Purpose Programming Language
16:00:45 <Gregor> Also, Solaris will be renamed to Oracle System Services
16:01:12 <Gregor> And they'll try to rename JavaScript to OracleScript
16:01:55 <Gregor> Then they'll rename VirtualBox to Oracle Virtual System and MySQL to the Oracle Database Sy--no wait.
16:02:55 <Gregor> MySQL will be renamed Oracle Database Demo :P
16:03:44 <Sgeo_> Can't MySQL just be forked?
16:03:53 <Gregor> Sure, but why? PostgreSQL is better.
16:04:15 <Sgeo_> Easier on systems already using MySQL?
16:04:34 <Gregor> I'm sure Oracle provides a very handy upgrade path :P
16:04:41 <deschutron> "Oracle General Purpose Programming Language" haha
16:05:49 <deschutron> yeah they could make a fork called OurSQL or something
16:05:53 <Sgeo_> Hey WOT plugin on Chrome: I love how long it takes you to warn me that I'm on a distrusted site
16:06:31 <deschutron> MySQL fans, that is
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16:53:45 <AnMaster> phew
16:54:09 <AnMaster> 1.5 dm snow during the night to today, then when I got home, another dm of snow
16:55:51 <AnMaster> also: open and mostly flat landscape around here and strong winds
16:56:04 <AnMaster> so really really bad roads today
16:58:02 <scarf> AnMaster: who measures in decimetres?
16:58:27 <scarf> IMO, 0.15m, 15cm, and 150mm would all be more plausible units there
17:02:04 <AnMaster> scarf, err, dm isn't all that uncommon in Sweden
17:02:33 <AnMaster> as in "a few decimetres" or such.
17:02:54 <AnMaster> scarf, oh and there is a class 1 warning for this part of the country
17:03:06 <AnMaster> (note: higher numbers are worse, it goes up to 3)
17:03:39 <scarf> hmm, 25cm of snow would be enough for a severe weather warning here in the UK
17:03:46 <scarf> but then, we're less used to large amounts of snow
17:04:20 <Gregor> Sweden.
17:04:23 <Gregor> Sweden is so weird.
17:04:33 <AnMaster> scarf, also, have you ever been traveling in an articulated bus that met another articulated bus on a already narrow street made yet more narrow due to the roughly 1.5 meter high heaps of snow on the sidewalks (also they extended a fair bit out in the street)
17:04:50 <AnMaster> scarf, really, this winter has been unusually bad
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17:04:54 <scarf> no, articulated busses are rare enough here as they are, and I don't think I've ever seen two at once
17:04:59 <scarf> *buses
17:05:15 <AnMaster> scarf, well same line, so two buses on the same line met
17:05:23 <AnMaster> really they had a hard time managing (I was in one)
17:05:55 <AnMaster> scarf, anyway what about non-articulated buses.
17:06:15 <scarf> AnMaster: oh, I see those all the time
17:06:23 <scarf> the record was something like 20 at once, that was a fun day
17:06:34 <AnMaster> scarf, I meant: the above scenario for other buses...
17:06:45 <AnMaster> or maybe you don't get enough snow to have a street made so narrow due to snow...
17:06:48 <scarf> basically, something had fallen off the roof of one of the big new skyscrapers in Birmingham and landed on one of the most major roundabouts there
17:06:55 <AnMaster> heh
17:07:02 <scarf> they had to close the roundabout as a result, while they did safety checks
17:07:19 <scarf> and pretty much every car driver avoided the city centre that day, but the busses didn't
17:07:26 <scarf> and they somehow managed to all be clumped in a really huge line
17:07:35 <scarf> nothing for half an hour, then 20 at once, on a huge range of different routes
17:08:33 <AnMaster> right, but that is still not quite like the scenario I described. Also it was snowing heavily at that point and the visibility was poor.
17:09:16 <AnMaster> scarf, oh and skyscraper, how many stories does it need to be that
17:09:22 <AnMaster> rather than just a tall house
17:09:37 <scarf> AnMaster: not sure, I think it's a relative term
17:09:51 <scarf> but it's one of the tallest buildings in Birmingham, many tens of storeys
17:09:53 <scarf> *stories
17:10:35 <AnMaster> could 15 stories or so be a sky-scraper anywhere?
17:10:42 <AnMaster> that is about the tallest around here I think
17:11:08 <AnMaster> and here = not just this town, but also the city a bit away
17:11:31 <AnMaster> in this town, I guess around 5 stories, maybe 7 in some of those newer houses...
17:12:52 <scarf> not sure
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17:14:44 <oerjan> dammit no oklopol
17:15:11 -!- oerjan has set topic: RIP sun.com | 16 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:16:06 <cpressey> There's something I've wondered for a while but never got clear on. If I compile with "gcc -ansi", does that necessarily preclude using any and all POSIX calls?
17:16:21 <AnMaster> scarf, btw, the snow outside the university reached above my knees outside one of the doors I had to reach
17:16:30 <AnMaster> due to the wind blowing it up against the house
17:16:39 <AnMaster> not nice
17:16:40 <scarf> cpressey: the header files take clues from the compiler as to which POSIX calls they should include
17:16:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, bad weather in norway too?
17:16:58 <scarf> by default, I think gcc tells them to use a GNUish set; if you say -ansi, it tells them to use an ANSI set
17:17:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, some 2.5 dm or so since yesterday here
17:17:07 <AnMaster> and still snowing
17:17:08 <scarf> but you can write your own #defines in order to select one yourself
17:17:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: no new snow here, although below -10 temperatures, no wind to speak of. i don't really call that bad...
17:17:42 <cpressey> scarf: Thanks.
17:17:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, well strong wind here...
17:18:09 <scarf> cpressey: man 7 feature_test_macros describes the whole mess
17:18:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, official warning (lowest level) from SHMI and such
17:19:06 <oerjan> i saw some warnings on yr.no in weeks previous, although i think trondheim was mostly missed
17:19:26 <cpressey> scarf: I'd rather not get into that :) I guess my question becomes, is there any sanctioned way in -ansi (-std=c89) to sleep for a given number of milliseconds?
17:19:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, lucky you
17:19:43 <scarf> no, milliseconds are too fine-grained, and that's actually impossible in DOS
17:19:54 <scarf> (the minimum sleep length is 1/19.2 seconds in DOS, for some reason I don't fully understand)
17:20:08 <oerjan> we did have approx -20 temperatures for a short while, though
17:20:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, fun yr.no claims it isn't snowing around here any longer
17:20:18 <AnMaster> looking out I have to strongly disagree
17:20:32 <oerjan> true, it's not always accurate
17:20:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, well, they could update it with current data as well
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17:20:58 <cpressey> scarf: I believe that's the frequency of one of the timer chips from the original PC architecture. But anyway -- OK, I might have to take a different approach.
17:21:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, also it is generally better than most other ones I know of
17:21:18 <AnMaster> thus when it isn't better it is fun to poke fun at it
17:21:21 <scarf> if you want a guaranteed millisecond sleep, you could require POSIX 2001 (that's #define _POSIX_C_SOURCE 200112L) and use select
17:21:46 <oerjan> oh do you look at yr.no often too? :D
17:21:50 <scarf> or you could require SUSv2 compatibility (#define _XOPEN_SOURCE 500) and use usleep
17:21:52 <AnMaster> <scarf> (the minimum sleep length is 1/19.2 seconds in DOS, for some reason I don't fully understand) <-- can't you change it iirc
17:21:54 <cpressey> scarf: I don't really need for it to be guaranteed. Actually, I don't really need for it to be compiled with -ansi, except for a perverse sense of pride.
17:21:57 <AnMaster> setting the PIT to a higher freq
17:22:00 <AnMaster> or something such
17:22:30 <oerjan> it's in cooperation with the norwegian meteorological institute, you'd imagine they had _some_ clue
17:22:35 <scarf> cpressey: if going for maximum portability, you could abstract out the sleep to a separate file and have it with a bunch of ifdefs for sleeps on differnt platforms
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17:23:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, nah, they just check the weather stone
17:23:20 <scarf> *different
17:23:28 <cpressey> scarf: Not maximum portability, but yes, I'm thinking now to just #ifdef on whether -ansi was specified. If so, approximate sleeps to the nearest second ('cos I think C89 has something for that)
17:23:41 <scarf> yep, time
17:24:12 <oerjan> :D
17:24:30 <cpressey> Then I can say "compiles with -ansi -pedantic" and satisfy my sick sense of pride in that. Just need to discover that that define is. Whee!
17:24:46 <scarf> cpressey: #ifdef __STRICT_ANSI__
17:24:52 <scarf> the feature test macros work both ways round!
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17:25:12 <cpressey> And scarf will even volunteer that information. This must be my lucky day!
17:25:14 <scarf> although, I think that's a glibc definition
17:25:22 <scarf> which is a really perverse sense of portability
17:25:47 <scarf> (if you wanted to be less perverse, you'd instead check that, say, _POSIX_C_SOURCE /wasn't/ set)
17:27:20 <cpressey> Yes.
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17:32:01 <AnMaster> cpressey, -ansi is C89 iirc?
17:32:19 <cpressey> AnMaster: Yup.
17:32:28 <AnMaster> cpressey, so what is wrong with C99
17:32:37 <cpressey> The manpage even says it's equivalent to "-std=c89".
17:32:53 <AnMaster> don't claim it jumped the shark, it didn't. The difference to C89 aren't that large
17:32:54 <cpressey> AnMaster: Nothing's "wrong" with C99, I just don't want to require it.
17:33:01 <AnMaster> cpressey, meh
17:33:15 <cpressey> No, it didn't jump the shark :)
17:33:20 <AnMaster> everything supports the most useful subset of C99 these days. Windows doesn't count (and on windows icc does it)
17:33:24 <AnMaster> (and mingw)
17:33:27 <AnMaster> (and so on)
17:33:51 <cpressey> AnMaster: I guess you did not see me type "sick sense of pride" twice above?
17:33:56 <scarf> hardly anything supports all of C99, though
17:34:05 <AnMaster> scarf, sure, complex numbers thingy and such
17:34:17 <scarf> AnMaster: I know you dislike python 3, but at least it exists
17:34:19 <scarf> C99 doesn't, really
17:34:25 <scarf> it's just a standard that only half caught on
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17:34:38 <AnMaster> "most useful subset" = stdint.h, restrict, stdbool.h, inline, // comments, for (int i ...) and a few such things
17:34:50 <AnMaster> oh and .fieldname = foo initialisers
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17:35:23 <cpressey> Hey, at least there's only one C99. There's like three RSS 2.0's.
17:35:59 <scarf> there are two C89s, though
17:36:01 <scarf> well, C89 and C90
17:36:10 <scarf> hilariously, they're identical except for the section numbering
17:36:14 <scarf> which makes them rather hard to quote
17:36:32 <AnMaster> scarf, you just *love* to mention that right?
17:36:48 <scarf> AnMaster: not massively, but it's worth mentioning in this context
17:36:50 <AnMaster> I mean, I heard it so many times
17:36:53 <AnMaster> from you
17:37:33 <scarf> AnMaster: I don't think I've said it that many times (anyone care to grep the logs?), and it probably wasn't aimed at you each time
17:38:25 <AnMaster> not aimed at at me every time no
17:38:54 <AnMaster> scarf, also hard to grep for due to exact wording differing
17:41:15 <AnMaster> actually about that amount of snow, other member of household got home, apparently I missed out on two rounds of clearing away the snow during the day. So add about 20 cm to that above...
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17:42:15 <AnMaster> scarf, so around 45 cm of snow then
17:42:24 <scarf> that's a lot for one day
17:43:11 <AnMaster> scarf, quite, 10-15 cm being more normal "lot of snow for one day" around here
17:44:45 <AnMaster> this has been both the coldest and the snowiest winter for a long time
17:44:56 <AnMaster> I think it even beat that amount some 5 years ago or so
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18:11:49 <AnMaster> scarf, oh btw, about 40 cars has gone over the side of the roads in this <something that iirc is roughly eqiv in size to a county in UK>. Due to the extremely slippery roads, partly caused by snow blowing across them.
18:25:14 <cheater4> is there a funge like befunge-93 but with inserting and removing rows/columns?
18:25:49 <cheater4> and is it tc?
18:26:45 <scarf> cheater4: ooh, I wrote something a bit like that
18:26:52 <scarf> now I'm trying to remember the name
18:26:55 <scarf> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Shove
18:27:02 <scarf> no, not that
18:27:03 <cheater4> 'a bit'?
18:27:07 <cheater4> 'splain
18:27:21 <oerjan> sprain your brain
18:27:22 <cheater4> lol
18:27:46 <cheater4> i sprain my brain when i'm reading the mysql manual.
18:27:57 <AnMaster> cheater4, use postgresql
18:28:00 <scarf> doesn't seem to be online, how strange
18:28:49 <cheater4> fuck sql and their non-deterministic totalitarian regime
18:29:06 <oerjan> Shove is conspicuously absent
18:29:07 <cheater4> scarf: just write it again, what could be so hard. :p
18:29:42 <scarf> reference interp: http://pastebin.ca/1786097
18:29:47 <scarf> strangely, I seem to never have written a spec
18:29:49 <scarf> but I believe it's TC
18:30:45 <cheater4> aha
18:30:48 <cheater4> so it is shove after all?
18:30:53 <scarf> yes, just not online
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18:31:38 <cheater4> jesus christ perl
18:31:39 <cheater4> i hate perl
18:32:02 <scarf> why?
18:32:28 <cheater4> why not?
18:32:36 <cheater4> i hate it because i don't know it.
18:32:40 <MissPiggy> if your having perl problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 programming problems but regex ain't one
18:32:46 <cheater4> isn't that good enough for you?
18:32:55 <cheater4> i don't have problems with regex
18:33:04 <cheater4> but RAP (regex ain't perl)
18:33:18 <oerjan> MissPiggy: that a quote?
18:33:22 <MissPiggy> yes
18:33:25 <MissPiggy> im rapping about perl
18:33:28 <cheater4> it's from an old blue song
18:33:31 <cheater4> blues
18:33:47 <oerjan> um i mean literally
18:33:51 <MissPiggy> no
18:33:53 <MissPiggy> it's modified
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18:36:01 -!- impomatic has joined.
18:36:05 <impomatic> Hi :-)
18:36:10 <oerjan> i note that googling "if you're having perl problems" gives several relevant hits, but not with "regex"
18:37:09 <AnMaster> cheater4, MissPiggy: to add some context to the above. in Swedish "rap" means "burp" (the verb form would be "att rapa" - "to burp")
18:37:11 <oerjan> i conclude that regexes _are_ a problem in perl ;D
18:37:28 <MissPiggy> There are rappers with guns after me
18:37:29 <MissPiggy> Enemies that want to make sure I'm dead
18:37:29 <MissPiggy> Rap critics that say, "he only cares about money and women"
18:38:24 <oerjan> we scandinavians frequently rape after dinner </old joke>
18:39:38 <oerjan> heck if it's old _enough_, it may not have been a joke when it started
18:42:23 <impomatic> Is anyone planning to enter the CROBOTS tournament? http://crobots.deepthought.it/home.php?link=91
18:45:39 <impomatic> Hmmm... not much BF_Joust action :-(
18:45:54 <scarf> unfortunately not
18:48:42 <pikhq> GCC hates tail-call optimisation when longjmp is in use.
18:57:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, tell me, what are you trying to do....
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18:57:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, are you trying to implement call/cc?
18:58:00 <AnMaster> if so, arrgh, and that won't work after you returned
18:58:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: call/cc with continuation-passing style.
18:58:38 <pikhq> Meaning no returning.
18:58:51 <pikhq> It works, GCC just doesn't tail-call optimize it at all.
19:00:05 <MissPiggy> dude if you wantCWCC don't use longjmp
19:00:44 <pikhq> MissPiggy: But it works just fine if you write continuation-passing style.
19:00:56 <pikhq> This means that functions never, ever return.
19:01:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, so longjmp() isn't tail call optimised?
19:01:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, functions *with them* aren't tail call optimised.
19:02:12 <pikhq> A tail call to fact becomes "call fact;addq $248, %rsp;ret"
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19:02:58 <pikhq> And a tail call to longjmp becomes "call longjmp".
19:03:09 <pikhq> Not "longjmp and then ret", just
19:03:13 <pikhq> "call longjmp".
19:03:43 <pikhq> __attribute__((noreturn)) makes GCC fecking stupid.
19:03:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, well longjmp doesn't return
19:04:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes. "jmp longjmp" would be valid.
19:04:24 <pikhq> That would be a tail-call optimisation.
19:04:35 <scarf> my guess is that longjmp is coded in such a way that it expects to be called by a call
19:04:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, well since it restores the stack, the stack growing is not an issue
19:04:50 <AnMaster> scarf, iirc longjmp is a builtin for gcc
19:04:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's not.
19:05:01 <AnMaster> that is just iirc though
19:05:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm? really?
19:05:05 <pikhq> I'm looking at the assembly.
19:05:12 <scarf> pikhq: it's a bit of both
19:05:18 <pikhq> Builtins get handled differently.
19:05:26 <scarf> it's special-cased, and so is a builtin in that sense (and you can call it __builtin_longjmp if you like)
19:05:32 <scarf> but it ends up being turned into a cal in the asm
19:05:34 <pikhq> It's almost certainly part of libgcc.a.
19:05:36 <AnMaster> ah it seems to be libc
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19:05:41 <scarf> *call
19:05:46 <AnMaster> extern void _longjmp (struct __jmp_buf_tag __env[1], int __val)
19:05:46 <AnMaster> __THROW __attribute__ ((__noreturn__));
19:05:46 <pikhq> But it's not a builtin.
19:05:54 <pikhq> The builtins are invariably inlined.
19:06:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, then what about libgcc
19:06:09 <scarf> pikhq: it has properties of a builtin, and properties of a nonbuiltin
19:06:30 <AnMaster> libgcc_s even
19:07:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: Mmm.
19:07:41 <AnMaster> or maybe that is just for unsupported instructions kind of stuff (like 64-bit division on 32-bit x86)
19:07:55 <pikhq> scarf: Anyways. It seems that longjmp is part of libc.
19:08:30 <scarf> I remember that with gcc-bf, it's in the libc, but has a crazy calling convention that's different from the normal one
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19:08:33 <scarf> hmm, or is that setjmp?
19:08:43 <pikhq> setjmp is the crazy one.
19:08:48 <scarf> ah yes, it's setjmp that needs to be weird, longjmp can just be a normal function call
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19:09:45 <pikhq> Among other things, it's declared __attribute__((returns_twice)).
19:10:26 <scarf> that's a beautiful attribute
19:10:32 <scarf> and not one that's officially documented, I think
19:10:36 <scarf> besides, it can return more than twice
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19:11:07 <pikhq> "Returns twice" just means "there is more than one return here. Make sure all registers are dead."
19:11:41 <AnMaster> scarf, err, setjmp has the "return twice attribute" yeah
19:11:55 <AnMaster> scarf, but what other strange calling convention would there be
19:12:16 <scarf> gah, now I'm going to have to look at libbf/setjmp.s
19:12:17 <AnMaster> <scarf> and not one that's officially documented, I think <-- yes it is
19:12:25 <AnMaster> I'm 100% sure I read the docs
19:12:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, isn't vfork() also returns_twice?
19:12:54 <AnMaster> not sure about fork()
19:12:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah.
19:13:03 <AnMaster> even though it returns twice it happens in different processes
19:13:05 <pikhq> fork() isn't.
19:13:15 <pikhq> It returns twice, sure, but once per stack.
19:13:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, but... on linux vfork() is just fork() iirc?
19:13:25 <AnMaster> as in, it is mapped like that
19:13:32 <scarf> AnMaster: not quite
19:13:33 <AnMaster> since linux does COW anyway
19:13:39 <scarf> vfork messes with the scheduling on linux
19:13:45 <AnMaster> scarf, in what way?
19:13:49 <scarf> such that the parent won't run until the child execs
19:13:54 <AnMaster> well yes
19:13:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: No.
19:13:58 <AnMaster> so you need a mutex or such
19:14:03 <AnMaster> to make it wait
19:14:07 <scarf> it's safe under the same circumstances as it's safe on non-cow systems
19:14:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: vfork() halts the parent until the child exits.
19:14:16 <scarf> pikhq: or execs
19:14:20 <scarf> which is the normal use-case
19:14:30 <pikhq> By any of: _exit, fatal signal, or exec.
19:14:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, or _Exit()
19:14:41 <pikhq> scarf: The *sane* use-case, you mean. :P
19:14:54 <scarf> pikhq: the *portable* use-case, I mean
19:15:03 <scarf> because vform means something rather different on, say, SunOS
19:15:05 <scarf> *vfork
19:15:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: _Exit is an alias for _exit.
19:15:15 <scarf> pikhq: different standards
19:15:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, _Exit is C99 too
19:15:43 <AnMaster> _exit() is posix
19:16:06 <pikhq> Ah.
19:16:17 <pikhq> Really should look at the feature test macros in the man page more.
19:16:28 <AnMaster> beats me why they didn't just use _exit() in C99
19:16:36 <AnMaster> after all, the behaviour is identical
19:16:38 <pikhq> POSIX requires that _Exit be an alias for _exit.
19:16:45 <AnMaster> well yes
19:17:05 <pikhq> But it makes no sense for the two of them to exist.
19:17:09 <AnMaster> huh
19:17:11 <AnMaster> wth
19:17:18 <AnMaster> okay this is strange
19:17:24 <AnMaster> 3p comes before 2 in my man
19:17:25 <AnMaster> on arch
19:17:33 <AnMaster> reverse (and saner) way on ubuntu
19:17:45 <AnMaster> now to find where to fix it on arch...
19:18:20 <AnMaster> ah /etc/man_db.conf
19:23:27 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
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19:33:19 <pikhq> I've got half a mind to do this with getcontext and setcontext.
19:33:23 <pikhq> (oh, the evil I can do!)
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19:34:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, they are removed and/or deprecated in POSIX 2008 iirc
19:34:41 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
19:34:51 <AnMaster> ah yes
19:34:53 <AnMaster> man page says:
19:34:56 <AnMaster> " SUSv2, POSIX.1-2001. POSIX.1-2008 removes the specification of getcontext(), citing portability issues, and recommending that applications be rewritten to use POSIX threads instead."
19:34:58 <scarf> pikhq: it's because _exit is in user namespace in C89
19:35:05 <scarf> rather than implementation namespace
19:35:16 <scarf> so adding it might have broken existing C89 programs that used it as a variable name (!)
19:35:20 <AnMaster> scarf, so what about printf()?
19:35:24 <AnMaster> isn't that user name space?
19:35:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: But POSIX threads aren't a replacement.
19:35:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, not my fault
19:35:49 <pikhq> I know, just debating.
19:35:58 <scarf> AnMaster: yes, unless you include stdio.h
19:36:04 <pikhq> Pthreads are... Threading. getcontext et al are continuations, with which coroutines can be done.
19:36:12 <pikhq> (and thereby userspace 'threads')
19:36:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, you could simulate getcontext/setcontext with posix threads and mutexes
19:36:34 <scarf> presumably, they had a choice of making you #include <c99stdio.h> to get _exit(), or just calling it _Exit() and putting it in a preëxisting header
19:36:37 <pikhq> o.O
19:36:38 <AnMaster> scarf, ....
19:36:43 <pikhq> Yes, you could.
19:36:52 <pikhq> Dear lord.
19:36:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, what?
19:37:04 <pikhq> This would be the most evil fibonacci sequence implementation ever.
19:37:10 <AnMaster> what?
19:37:13 <scarf> pikhq: I did something similar in continuation.i
19:37:20 <scarf> using INTERCAL threads to simulate continuations
19:37:24 <pikhq> Continuation-passing style using POSIX threads.
19:37:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, wonderful!
19:37:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, a bit irritating on implementations not using user space threads
19:38:02 <AnMaster> on m:n mappings it shouldn't be too bad
19:38:11 <AnMaster> on 1:1 mappings, well, it would be bad
19:38:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: Could just link against GNU userspace threads for those platforms.
19:38:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, such as linux?
19:38:38 <AnMaster> linux uses 1:1 threads
19:38:54 <AnMaster> freebsd used to use m:n but switched to 1:1 too
19:39:02 <AnMaster> most other are 1:1 I think
19:39:13 <pikhq> NPTL uses either 1:1 or m:n.
19:39:21 <AnMaster> ntpl can use m:n?
19:39:23 <AnMaster> link?
19:39:30 <AnMaster> I never heard about this before
19:39:34 <pikhq> Not sure how to switch it over to m:n, but Wikipedia says it can.
19:39:44 <AnMaster> nptl*
19:39:46 <pikhq> Argh.
19:39:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, what?
19:39:53 <pikhq> No it doesn't.
19:40:03 <pikhq> "An alternative to NPTL's 1×1 model is the m×n model where there are typically more userland threads than schedulable entities. In the m×n implementation, the threading library is responsible for scheduling user threads on the available schedulable entities; "
19:40:10 <pikhq> That's just saying "this is possible".
19:40:11 <pikhq> -_-'
19:40:13 <AnMaster> yeah
19:40:35 <AnMaster> but linux doesn't do it
19:40:53 <pikhq> GNU Portable Threads are M:1.
19:41:15 <pikhq> Slightly inefficient, but work just about everywhere.
19:44:16 <oerjan> (i think there was a big error in it when i found it, which i removed :D)
19:44:25 <oerjan> darn windows
19:44:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, big error in what?
19:44:54 <oerjan> well since it ended up here anyhow, in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formally_real_field
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19:45:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Well, doing that I would have *one* advantage.
19:45:57 <pikhq> Writing in a functional style makes everything automatically reentrant.
19:46:02 <pikhq> Mmm, immutable values.
19:49:21 <pikhq> Though, if I did everything with getcontext et al, I could do stuff like have garbage-collected stacks. Which amuses me.
19:49:46 <cpressey> Doing continuation-passing style with pthreads would be a bit like doing it with bash shell calling "exec $0"... no?
19:50:12 <pikhq> cpressey: Remarkably similar.
19:52:09 <cpressey> I should implement that idea I had for "continuators" a while ago, even though it was really vague and unimplementable. Something about passing continuations between processes/threads, and calling a service to provide new continuations...
19:52:34 <cpressey> I think I just liked the term "continuator".
19:52:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, how could you gc the stacks?
19:53:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, also I doubt boehm-gc would like it very much
19:53:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: Stacks are explicitly allocated.
19:53:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, boehm-gc would go mad
19:53:39 <pikhq> You literally have to allocate a stack and stick it into a context for creating a new context.
19:54:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, what if you realloc() it?
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19:54:40 <AnMaster> or anyway
19:54:44 <AnMaster> how do you grow it
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19:55:13 <pikhq> Generally, you just allocate a sufficiently large stack.
19:55:32 <pikhq> But it's normally allocated memory.
19:55:39 <pikhq> Which happens to be where the stack pointer is.
19:55:51 <GreaseMonkey> 'lo.
19:56:27 <GreaseMonkey> hard disk's a little slow this morning
19:57:21 <AnMaster> mhm
19:57:39 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, why are you still using a legacy rotational storage device?
19:57:55 <AnMaster> also instead of flying cars: WHERE ARE MY DATA CUBES?
19:58:15 <GreaseMonkey> AnMaster: so how much are, um, 160DMGB+250DMGB SSDs?
19:58:26 <GreaseMonkey> DMGB = drivemakers' gigabytes = 1000^3B
19:58:27 <AnMaster> wth is DMGB
19:58:56 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, thanks, will use that against ehird (he uses GB/GiB)
19:58:56 <GreaseMonkey> i completely refuse to refer to them as just GB
19:59:12 <GreaseMonkey> GB was always 1024^3
19:59:27 <GreaseMonkey> those who insist we use GiB for that should learn to stop being so cheap
20:00:12 <GreaseMonkey> some country should bring in a legislation which enforces that a xB is 1024^y bytes
20:00:28 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, G = 1000 in the SI system though
20:00:31 <GreaseMonkey> because 1000^x is just false advertising
20:00:37 <AnMaster> or are you using kig for 1000 grams?
20:00:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:00:51 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, ^
20:00:58 <GreaseMonkey> well, note that there's kg, and KB
20:01:01 <AnMaster> also they should just use cyliders
20:01:04 <AnMaster> cylinders*
20:01:26 <GreaseMonkey> it was always 1024 for a KB, anyway
20:01:41 <cpressey> kig = 1024 grams?
20:01:52 <GreaseMonkey> thing is, with metric, you're working with real numbers
20:01:54 -!- augur has joined.
20:02:03 <GreaseMonkey> and a human is supposed to measure it
20:02:04 <scarf> wow: http://labs.ripe.net/content/pollution-18
20:02:08 <GreaseMonkey> (usually)
20:02:17 <GreaseMonkey> but with a computer, you're working with integers
20:02:17 <scarf> it's a graph of what happened when was put live on the internet
20:02:23 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: The SI prefixes are useless for computers, yes.
20:02:25 <AnMaster> <cpressey> kig = 1024 grams? <-- ah hm
20:02:29 <scarf> basically, the people who owned it got DOSed
20:02:37 <pikhq> This is why we shouldn't use SI prefixes.
20:02:40 <AnMaster> make it, dmkg for "drive makers kilogram"
20:02:45 <pikhq> Mmm, gibibytes.
20:02:51 <AnMaster> to keep with GreaseMonkey's logic
20:02:59 <scarf> should be Kig
20:03:07 <scarf> capital K on KiB
20:03:09 <GreaseMonkey> thing is, it was always 1024 bytes to a KB
20:03:19 <AnMaster> err
20:03:22 <GreaseMonkey> it was also always 1000 grams to a kg
20:03:39 <AnMaster> isn't private?
20:03:41 <AnMaster> oh wait
20:03:43 <AnMaster> that is 10
20:03:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: No.
20:04:00 <pikhq> was recently assigned.
20:04:08 <pikhq> However, it's been used as a private space.
20:04:25 <pikhq> (it was reserved by the IANA since '81)
20:04:28 <scarf> there's a huge amount of unofficial use of
20:04:35 <GreaseMonkey> at first i thought you said they allocated
20:04:50 <scarf> the authorities are holding on to on the basis that it would be crazy to allocate it to anyone
20:05:08 <GreaseMonkey> good point
20:05:23 <scarf> and it looks like RIPE decided to put it online for a bit to see what happened
20:05:29 <scarf> (the result was chaos, as you can imagine)
20:06:20 <scarf> <RIPE> We can certainly conclude from this that specific blocks in 1/8 such as and are extremely polluted. Unless the traffic sent towards those blocks is significantly reduced they might be unusable in a production environment.
20:07:58 <GreaseMonkey> it's not so bad considering that they actually tested it before attempting to release it
20:08:54 <scarf> it's brilliant that they even thought of testing
20:09:29 <GreaseMonkey> that might be why AW's server was so damn slow
20:09:51 <AnMaster> scarf, I couldn't imagine before reading it that it was chaos
20:10:11 <AnMaster> mainly because I couldn't imagine people would be abusing reserved prefixes
20:10:20 <scarf> AnMaster: Wikipedia has edits from, you can check that yourself
20:10:29 <scarf> that's what cottoned me on to thinking that there might be a problem
20:10:35 <scarf> (it also has edits from, which is amazing)
20:10:38 <AnMaster> scarf, what does that signify btw
20:10:44 <AnMaster> the thing I mean
20:10:54 <scarf> it means that someone, probably a dev, put a fake IP in for the edit
20:10:59 <scarf> although I'm not sure whyt
20:11:00 <scarf> *why
20:11:03 <AnMaster> hm
20:11:12 <AnMaster> scarf, as for those, what sort of edits
20:11:23 <AnMaster> I guess someone used an ssh tunnel...
20:11:23 <scarf> you can check for yourself, you know
20:11:29 <scarf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=Special:Contributions/
20:11:33 <AnMaster> scarf, I don't know how to search on the ip
20:11:34 <AnMaster> ah
20:11:47 <scarf> looks like mostly interwiki links to the Russian Wikipedia
20:11:55 <AnMaster> yep
20:12:02 <AnMaster> so a bot that wasn't properly logged in?
20:12:31 <scarf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk: is not that bad either
20:12:41 <scarf> "Note: In the event of vandalism from this address, half-baked abuse reports may be sent to Wikimedia's own network administrator for further investigation that will never be looked into."
20:12:57 <GreaseMonkey> hehe
20:13:14 <AnMaster> "Caution should never be used when blocking this IP or reverting its contributions without checking - if a block is unnecessary, administrators should consider using the banhammer without adding any templates as the block reason. Of course, most administrators are just testing the blocking and unblocking procedure."
20:13:18 <AnMaster> err
20:13:24 <AnMaster> is that backwards?
20:13:24 <GreaseMonkey> ARGH BALLS i can't get on wikipedia >_> <_<
20:13:40 <scarf> AnMaster: yes, it's backwards
20:18:00 <AnMaster> scarf, wth at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:
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20:18:46 <scarf> no idea there
20:19:20 <scarf> might be worth mentioning that it's changed hands since
20:19:43 <AnMaster> also why allocate 1/8
20:19:50 <AnMaster> just switch to ipv6 already dammit
20:20:01 <AnMaster> scarf, what changed hands?
20:20:26 <scarf> AnMaster: 1/8
20:21:21 <AnMaster> hm
20:30:21 <oerjan> um that's backwards? it seemed sort of logical to me to treat an address heavy-handed if it doesn't really have the right to exist as an editor...
20:37:15 <cpressey> AnMaster: I'm tempted to say that IPV6 is the "jumped the shark" of network addressing, but I won't :) It's not /quite/ the same effect...
20:37:45 <AnMaster> cpressey, it *is* about our only hope atm
20:37:58 <AnMaster> cpressey, any alternatives would take years to develop
20:38:00 <cpressey> But it's similar, I guess: "I'm only going to start doing it if all my friends are doing it, and my friends feel the same way"
20:38:09 <AnMaster> and we don't have that amount of time any more
20:38:16 <AnMaster> before ipv4 runs out completely
20:38:33 <AnMaster> cpressey, also I use a sixxs tunnel
20:40:34 <AnMaster> cpressey, my isp has an ipv6 block allocated, they don't use it though
20:40:39 <AnMaster> also I doubt my router could handle it
20:40:46 <AnMaster> could telnet to it and check it's menus
20:40:55 <AnMaster> (it's a speedtouch adsl modem/router)
20:41:48 <cpressey> I remember trying NetBSD once, and it insisting on using IPV6. That was not fun.
20:42:14 <pikhq> Comcast is beginning the switch to IPv6 *now*.
20:42:28 <cpressey> How very NetBSDish... "No! We will do it the RIGHT way, no matter what the cost!"
20:42:40 <GreaseMonkey> ...what the crap
20:42:49 <SimonRC> cpressey: heh
20:42:52 <GreaseMonkey> netbsd should still be using IPv2
20:43:01 <GreaseMonkey> THAT seems more netbsdish to me
20:43:08 <cpressey> GreaseMonkey: Heh
20:43:39 <GreaseMonkey> my netbsd experience is that it takes up sod-all RAM
20:44:15 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: Garbage collection and manual memory management are highly overrated.
20:44:29 <pikhq> Just statically create a heap of a couple gigabytes and hope it works.
20:44:30 <pikhq> :P
20:45:06 <oerjan> just use your nanobots to create a few cubic meters of computronium
20:46:38 <scarf> pikhq: or the anagolf technique of just using whatever memory addresses happened to be in the variables at the time, and repeatedly running the program until they turn out to be writable
20:48:32 <AnMaster> cpressey, my isp hasn't started going ipv6 yet
20:48:33 <AnMaster> also
20:48:37 <AnMaster> things will be bad
20:48:45 <AnMaster> because almost no servers will have ipv6
20:48:52 <AnMaster> so you will have to go through 6-to-4
20:48:54 <AnMaster> and that
20:48:59 <AnMaster> will result in problems
20:49:06 <AnMaster> like connection limit counts for irc
20:49:07 <AnMaster> and what not
20:49:24 <AnMaster> also wikipedia banning
20:49:36 <scarf> I'd expect wikipedia to go to ipv6 some time
20:49:41 <AnMaster> well yes
20:49:48 <AnMaster> scarf, still, the issues are huge
20:50:00 <scarf> going home now, anyway
20:50:01 <scarf> bye everyone
20:50:04 <AnMaster> scarf, imagine rate limiting on lots of places
20:50:05 <AnMaster> scarf, cya
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20:50:09 <GreaseMonkey> cya scarf
20:56:44 <Ilari> Quite polluted /24 when announcing it causes tens of megabits of traffic (on block that should be quiet)... :-/
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21:21:13 <Ilari> Often resource exhaustion problems don't feel that pressing until you really hit them, and when you hit them, you hit them _hard_.
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21:43:45 <pikhq> Well, I've got CPS with getcontext et al...
21:43:51 <pikhq> And it behaves... *Weirdly*.
21:44:38 <pikhq> It goes through 3 continuations just fine, before going up to a nulled out stack frame.
21:45:33 <pikhq> Yes, a nulled stack frame.
21:50:06 <cpressey> I'm sorry I ate your stack frame.
21:50:09 <cpressey> I was hungry.
22:01:29 <pikhq> And it is in fact a stack fram that was valid.
22:01:36 <pikhq> It just somehow gets nulled out.
22:01:46 <pikhq> I don't know how.
22:06:50 <pikhq> It would appear to be a result of a too-large new stack...
22:06:53 <pikhq> Somehow.
22:11:44 <pikhq> ... The program changes behavior with normal malloc.
22:12:10 <pikhq> With GC_MALLOC, it computes factorials validly for n in [0..11].
22:12:27 <pikhq> With normal malloc, it loops infinitely.
22:16:07 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/RNie
22:18:06 <AnMaster> niht
22:18:08 <AnMaster> night*
22:20:59 <oerjan> ni!
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22:23:28 <pikhq> I'm never using getcontext ever again.
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23:19:46 <cpressey> So I'm thinking an imperative function-level language would revolve around three concepts: storage locations (replace atoms), procedures (replace functions), and procedurals (replace functionals). Parameters would always be passed "by reference" -- so procedurals make new procedures by modifying (clobbering) existing procedures.
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00:11:23 <cpressey> And Then There Were 42.
00:17:28 <GreaseMonkey> wow.
00:17:37 <GreaseMonkey> we really understand life.
00:17:47 <GreaseMonkey> at least conway's version, that is
00:23:29 <cpressey> Boo-yah!
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00:24:08 <coppro> conway's life is awesom
00:24:14 <coppro> Are there any life-based languages?
00:27:00 <oerjan> well REDGREEN has a life subset
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00:29:11 <coppro> hmm
00:29:17 <coppro> is there a graphical version of REDGREEN somewhere?
00:29:40 <oerjan> no idea. and cpressey just left.
00:29:52 <coppro> I know he left
00:30:43 <oerjan> i guess you'd want a graphical version of ALPACA, since that's what it's written in
00:31:07 <oerjan> but still i dunno
00:37:20 <coppro> you could have a simple text-to-image replacement on top of the ALPACA layer
00:37:46 <oerjan> true
00:39:04 <coppro> does a nice generic one of those exist?
00:39:49 <oerjan> "no idea"
00:45:04 <coppro> that sounds like a reasonable project
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02:33:26 <Sgeo__> *sigh* If I'm a superstar in a 3xx level class, that reflects badly on the school rather than well on me?
02:35:10 <Gregor> Nothing ever reflects well on you. :P
02:35:55 <Sgeo__> Seriously, one of these guys is a professional programmer, and apparently he's struggling
02:36:06 <Sgeo__> I think that that reflects poorly on the teacher
02:36:45 <coppro> Sgeo__: What's the class about?
02:36:53 <coppro> also, what school?
02:37:03 <Sgeo__> Data Structures, but currently we're just doing a Fraction calculator
02:37:10 <Sgeo__> SUNY Farmingdale
02:37:34 <Sgeo__> A lot of the students are complaining about a previous teacher from a 2xx level course
02:37:42 <Sgeo__> I had the same teacher and agree with those complaints, really
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02:52:02 <pikhq> ... Professional programmer. Struggling with data structures.
02:52:20 <pikhq> ... Data structures, a 3xx level class?
02:53:10 <coppro> Sgeo__: what's complaining about a previous teacher got to do with it?>
02:53:31 <Sgeo__> coppro, the previous teacher didn't actually teach anything
02:53:39 <coppro> oh
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03:30:08 <coppro> so, anyone interested in a program to display a text file with a tile system?
03:56:10 <Sgeo__> AKRYPTOS
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05:20:15 <augur> hey! :
05:20:16 <augur> :D
05:20:24 <augur> graaaaacenotes :D
05:29:35 <oklopol> heh, now they're drilling in minor third
05:31:23 <augur> oklopol! :D
05:33:49 <augur> ::glomp::
05:34:13 <oklopol> g...lomp?
05:34:23 <augur> pounce huggle
05:34:37 <oklopol> argh alarm clock is making a sound
05:34:54 <augur> because today is
05:34:56 <augur> SOUND DAY
05:35:00 <oklopol> :o
05:35:04 <oklopol> wow that would be cool
05:38:30 <oklopol> BYE
05:38:31 <oklopol> ->
05:38:43 <augur> byeee
05:51:36 <Gracenotes> this is rather useful, javascript:as=document.getElementsByTagName("a");for(i=0;i<as.length;i++){if(as[i].href)as[i].innerHTML=as[i].href};void(0)
05:51:49 <Gracenotes> for link-copying and the like
05:55:50 <oklopol> in my dream i was in a university that was completely based on aocp, there was one massive building per subsubchapter, 3.1.2. and such
05:56:45 <oklopol> they went up to 8, and i was told that's where all the reeeeally technical math happens
05:56:52 <oklopol> oh, and it was a math university
05:57:30 <pikhq> Gracenotes: ...
05:57:36 <pikhq> Gracenotes: That seems silly.
05:58:55 <Gracenotes> domains of usefulness: putting links to download sites into a copy/paste-able form, plugged into a terminal script which downloads them. possibly others.
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06:01:33 <oklopol> why not express the y with s and k
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06:01:52 <oklopol> yeah i guess that was a bit rude on my part
06:02:02 <oklopol> it was a good enough nick
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08:19:08 <Slereah> fukken
08:19:15 <Slereah> My computer at home is broken
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10:42:40 <mustafas> h'
10:42:43 <mustafas> hi
10:42:45 <mustafas> all
10:42:48 <oerjan> hello
10:43:21 <mustafas> where from
10:43:33 <oerjan> norway
10:43:37 <mustafas> turkey
10:43:45 <mustafas> 36 m
10:44:08 <oerjan> 39 m
10:44:18 <mustafas> good
10:44:48 <mustafas> what is time there
10:44:57 <oerjan> 11:44
10:45:06 <mustafas> same
10:45:15 <mustafas> what s your job
10:45:24 <oerjan> no comment
10:45:28 <mustafas> ok
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10:45:55 <oerjan> huh
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10:49:41 <fizzie> Ooh, I don't think we've had an honest-to-$deity A/S/L conversation here very often.
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15:44:40 <cpressey> Isn't it 17 days now?
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15:48:21 <pikhq> Yes.
15:48:25 <pikhq> Bit worrisome.
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17:05:40 <fizzie> Maybe his parents found out what sort of people we are, and forbid him to associate with us.
17:09:10 <MissPiggy> perverts
17:10:20 <oerjan> that doesn't explain why he's also gone from reddit. oh wait...
17:10:33 <cpressey> Wait, what sort of people *are* we?
17:11:07 <cpressey> Complete professionals.
17:11:12 <cpressey> That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
17:11:27 <oerjan> i'm not professional
17:11:48 -!- oerjan has set topic: RIP sun.com | 17 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:36:57 <cpressey> Is it just me, or do most developers actually *like* all that operational crap -- debugging, profiling, upgrading dependencies, configuring database servers, etc, etc?
17:37:22 <cpressey> Actually, "Is it just me" was exactly the wrong phrase to start that question with :)
17:37:30 <MissPiggy> lol
17:37:35 <MissPiggy> that was a total nonsequiter
17:37:52 <MissPiggy> hm
17:37:57 <MissPiggy> except backwards
17:38:08 <oerjan> well stop nonsequiting then
17:38:47 <cpressey> Is it just me that sees all the developers around them liking all that operational stuff
17:41:43 <oerjan> well it would be bad if nobody liked it, given that it has to be done
17:53:46 <cpressey> I think maybe some developers like those tasks because they are (in some sense) much easier than designing and coding.
17:56:14 <FireFly> Well, it's also utterly boring :)
17:56:24 <cpressey> Don't mind me, I'm just griping about being asked to profile some trivial changes I made. Outside any loop. In a DB-bound app. In the absence of any concrete performance requirements...
17:59:31 <oklopol> that's what you get for having a job
18:00:48 <cpressey> True. Although I'm sure this kind of thing happens often enough in open-source projects, too. :)
18:01:55 <oklopol> i'm not a strong support of OS either
18:02:11 <cpressey> JWZ once wrote an article griping about how open-source projects only do the work that's fun, not what's important. I wasn't impressed -- that's their freakin' perogative, if no one's paying them.
18:02:12 <oklopol> supporter
18:03:11 <oklopol> only do the work that's fun? in what sense?
18:03:47 <oklopol> i mean i'm under the impression OS programs are not inferior in quality to CS ones.
18:03:57 <cpressey> One sec, I'll try to find the article.
18:04:21 <oklopol> i'll prolly go to sleep soon, but maybe i'll read parts of it.
18:04:39 <cpressey> http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
18:04:42 <cpressey> It's short
18:07:24 <oklopol> great if that's true, sofar the only reason i have for not liking OS is i don't like it when people don't get paid for what they do.
18:08:22 <oklopol> which is almost "i just dislike for the heck of it".
18:08:25 <oklopol> *it
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19:32:47 <olsner> I don't like doing non-programming crap (either? that original question was a bit unclear)
19:33:03 <olsner> it was also 2h ago
19:33:58 <olsner> version control, whenever it becomes a distinct activity, also sucks a lot
19:35:51 <cpressey> Hm. I don't mind most version control tasks (although I can see how some can be just awful).
19:37:07 <cpressey> I'm getting used to writing test cases. At least there, there's some concrete improvement you can feel.
19:37:33 <cpressey> And some troubleshooting is inevitable.
19:37:48 <cpressey> But configuring Apache and that sort of stuff... ugh.
19:39:39 <olsner> most VC tasks are basically just the "commit -> done" part of "code -> commit -> done", and that's fine and pretty much fun (since it means your code gets out into the world), but when you spend minutes, hours or days at a time battling version control then it really ... blows
19:40:04 <olsner> moving stuff around in a VCS that doesn't do moving, for example
19:41:46 <cpressey> Oh heck yeah. Maybe it's just me, but distributed version control seems much more hassle than it's worth.
19:42:20 <olsner> I think DVCS:es are more modern and thought-through and thus handle larger projects better
19:43:22 <cpressey> There's an element of that, sure, but I've never actually seen centralized VC fail badly at handling a large project, either.
19:44:05 <olsner> yeah, CVS has the benefit of only having to work at one file at a time :P
19:44:54 <olsner> otoh, CVS implements some of the low-level operations theeee most braindead way possible, takes a few seconds per file to create a branch in some circumstances
19:45:06 <olsner> it's O(n^2) in the number of existing branches
19:51:23 <cpressey> Nice.
19:52:06 <olsner> I think CVS is actually also using a hashtable to do this, but iterating it linearly
19:52:18 <olsner> or maybe their "hashtable" is just a list/array
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21:04:37 <cpressey> Well! Thanks to profiling, I optimized my cache access function, and it now only accounts for 5.9 microseconds of the access time of each web page, instead of 6.3 microseconds!
21:07:40 <oerjan> *gasp*
21:09:34 <cpressey> Hm, 3PM. Time for lunch.
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21:09:58 <Sgeo|web> *sigh*
21:10:13 <Sgeo|web> The idiots in my UNIX class are playing the "penis" game
21:11:23 <MissPiggy> sounds fun!!
21:11:33 <MissPiggy> but a bit raunchy for a UNIX class
21:11:56 <MissPiggy> or am I thinking of a different game..
21:12:05 * oerjan is afraid to ask
21:26:22 <oklopol> what's the penis game
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21:29:04 <Sgeo|web> Where a group of people say "penis" louder and louder. The person who refuses to say it loses
21:29:50 <oklopol> lol that sounds awesome :D
21:30:09 <oerjan> the penis mightier
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21:53:24 <fizzie> "OpenStreetMap is a free editable map of the whole world. It is made by people like you." People like me! Maybe they could also start a dating service thing, if they can guarantee something like that.
21:54:22 <Gregor> They are like you in that they are people :P
21:55:08 <oerjan> this is insulting to all the non-people who happen to be reading that!
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21:59:36 <oklopol> pfft, people
22:04:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
22:08:05 <cpressey> "It is made by people who like you." Then they'd be even better suited for starting that dating service, no?
22:09:07 <oklopol> "it is made by people, like you".
22:09:16 <oerjan> "It is made by people who hate you and are trying to kill you."
22:10:18 <oklopol> i win because mine was a mom joke
22:10:24 <olsner> "it is made by norwegians."
22:12:41 <oerjan> same thing.
22:17:04 <olsner> exactly.
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22:59:02 * cpressey suspiciously eyes the box labelled "PROBLEM TOMATOES"
22:59:30 <oerjan> fruit delinquents
22:59:58 <olsner> Troblem Pomatoes
23:01:00 <oerjan> i find that a spousy loonerism
23:01:59 <olsner> orle
23:02:02 <olsner> *orly
23:02:18 <olsner> 0118 999 881 999 119 725... 3 anyway
23:02:29 <oerjan> huh?
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23:05:29 <cpressey> check MATE!
23:11:04 <cpressey> You know what would be grand? If there was a scripting language that extended its own traceback/file-inclusion/line-number display when scripts were reading *their* files.
23:11:30 <cpressey> Yeah, there are some complexities to it, but I'm sure they're not insurmountable
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23:45:39 <Wareya> http://cymonsgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=191.0
23:48:07 <cpressey> What game be this?
23:48:36 <cpressey> http://cymonsgames.com/asciiportal/ apparently
23:49:19 <cpressey> Looks cute.
23:58:53 <Gregor> lawlehcoptahs
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02:26:50 <Sgeo__> Sam Hughes responded to me! *squee*
02:28:54 <coppro> Sam Hughes?
02:29:28 <Sgeo__> The qntm.org guy
02:29:42 <Sgeo__> Fine Structure, the Ed stories, Geocide
02:32:40 <Pthing> oh, he does things outside of everything2?
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02:34:46 <Sgeo__> I know that the Fine Structure stuff, and I bet a good amount of his other fiction, is on both e2 and qntm
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02:47:53 <pikhq> Pthing: www.qntm.org . Read.
02:48:09 <Pthing> but i can't, jibreel
02:50:24 <Sgeo__> ?
02:50:48 <Pthing> nyekulturny
02:50:56 <Pthing> i got it bookmarked now, though
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06:05:18 <oklopol> why do i keep reading john gabriel's knols
06:05:24 <oklopol> it hurts so much
06:06:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, fiction?
06:06:57 <AnMaster> ouch got to run bbl
06:12:03 <oklopol> yes
06:12:15 <augur> guys
06:12:21 <oklopol>
06:12:21 <oklopol> thems=[]
06:12:21 <augur> i feel like i spoke with one of you at one point
06:12:28 <augur> about some sort of graph transformation
06:12:34 <oklopol> http://knol.google.com/k/are-real-numbers-uncountable#
06:12:49 <oklopol> famous fiction
06:12:51 <augur> maybe it was you, oklopol, i dont know
06:14:13 <augur> but basically it was a transformation of a rooted graph into a tree where like
06:14:36 <augur> the "daughter" nodes of the any given node were all of the nodes that the original node in the graph was connected to by an edge
06:17:57 <augur> does that sound familiar to anyone?
06:22:05 <oklopol> yes
06:22:12 <oklopol> but i don't recall any use for it
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06:24:17 <augur> whats it called
06:24:19 <augur> tell me, please
06:24:20 <augur> D:
06:25:08 <oklopol> it's a treificated graph, obviously
06:25:10 <oklopol> see you ->
06:25:14 <augur> :|
06:25:19 <augur> nooo
06:25:26 <augur> i need to know what its called! :(
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06:27:19 <augur> oklopol! :(
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10:10:20 <oerjan> <AnMaster> oklopol, fiction?
10:10:31 <oerjan> it's fiction, it's just that the author doesn't know this
10:11:14 * oerjan hasn't read them but there was a post about it on good math/bad math yesterday
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12:50:03 <scarf> is there something wrong with me?
12:50:12 <scarf> I wanted to write a program, and decided Java was the best language for it
12:50:34 <oklopol> :o
12:51:15 <scarf> so far it's going rather well
12:51:30 <scarf> although this confirms my suspicions that Java absolutely needs an IDE specifically designed for it
12:51:49 <Ilari> scarf: What kind of program?
12:52:03 <oklopol> i don't think a java project of mine has ever failed
12:52:04 <scarf> Ilari: I'm trying to write a ttyrec player that's better than any of the current ones
12:52:06 <scarf> but a GUI one
12:52:11 <oklopol> but i've just done semisimple uni projects
12:52:15 <scarf> and with all sorts of interesting features
12:52:17 <oklopol> in it
12:53:17 <Ilari> Java doesn't allow much crazy stuff. But the reflection part is really nice...
12:53:27 <scarf> I'm not trying to do crazy stuff, though
13:11:25 <FireFly> Pretty much the only crazy thing I've seen Java allow is having a class, variable and function of the same name
13:16:45 <scarf> the most crazy thing I've done so far is subclassed BasicSliderUI and overloaded the method that paints the background
13:16:49 <scarf> so as to have a slider with a custom background
13:30:58 <oklopol> why's that crazy?
13:32:07 <scarf> it isn't really, but it was a pain to figure out what to do
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14:51:37 <AnMaster> <oerjan> it's fiction, it's just that the author doesn't know this <-- ouch!
14:52:03 <AnMaster> <scarf> although this confirms my suspicions that Java absolutely needs an IDE specifically designed for it <--- iirc there are plenty
14:52:25 <AnMaster> though the only ones I can remember the names of right now are eclipse and netbeans
14:52:44 <AnMaster> scarf, and what the hell is that program?
14:52:48 <scarf> AnMaster: there are plenty, I'm using netbeans because it's what I'm supposed to teach here
14:52:54 <scarf> and it's a ttyrec player
14:53:03 <AnMaster> what the crap
14:53:10 <scarf> what's the what the crap for?
14:53:24 <AnMaster> that java would be best for that...
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14:53:37 <AnMaster> scarf, is ttyrec a text format? Or binary?
14:53:40 <scarf> binary
14:53:50 <scarf> but it's meant to be portable, cross-platform, GUI and have loads of features
14:53:52 <AnMaster> hard to parse?
14:54:06 <scarf> easy to parse, hard to interpret
14:54:20 <AnMaster> also fun: jaunty kernel *source* update, and modules, but no the actual kernel image itself
14:54:27 <AnMaster> and it changed patch level number
14:54:29 <scarf> the format's incredibly simple, and so is missing most of the particularly useful information, that would be needed to, say, upload
14:54:30 <AnMaster> or whatever it is called
14:54:32 <scarf> AnMaster: I noticed that too
14:54:41 <scarf> same in karmic, except there was a kernel update the next day
14:54:55 <AnMaster> scarf, any bug report for it in jaunty?
14:55:12 <AnMaster> ah here it is, ran apt-get update again
14:57:28 <AnMaster> and on arch (for updates): download size: 42.82 MB, installed size: 204.92 MB. Quite good compression. And arch packages are gzipped
14:57:46 <AnMaster> can't see any obvious "lots of text only" package either
15:02:24 <AnMaster> yeargh, conflict on menu.lst
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16:28:32 <scarf> gah at the netbeans update dialog
16:28:47 <scarf> it concatenates the licences of all the updates that are being applied, and asking if you agree
16:29:04 <scarf> which means I'm having to scroll through something like 10 copies each of the GPL and CDDL to see if there's anything else buried in there
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16:31:09 <scarf> oh, there are other licences there too
16:31:14 <scarf> 3 copies of the Apache licence so far
16:31:21 <cpressey> Heh. A need for "license de-duping."
16:31:35 <scarf> and a modified BSD3 which bans using a particular name for derivative works
16:31:52 <scarf> cpressey: Debian actually has that
16:31:52 <cpressey> Oh, you got to love the BSD license forking.
16:32:00 <scarf> it symlinks all the copies of the GPL to a common location
16:32:25 <cpressey> Well, I'll defeat it by rewording my BSD disclaimer!
16:32:45 <scarf> I was kind-of scared there'd be a BSD4 in there somewhere
16:32:57 <scarf> done about 2/3s, though, and haven't seen one yet
16:33:14 <cpressey> 4. Thou shalt not distribute as part of a "Hits of the 90's" compilation.
16:34:12 <scarf> ooh, LGPL
16:35:04 <scarf> hmm, looks OK
16:35:16 <scarf> the ridiculous thing is, that accepting an open-source licence agreement is generally irrelevant anyway
16:36:05 <cpressey> Given that most of the conditions only apply once you copy it or modify it -- yes.
16:36:09 <cheater> scarf: what's wrong with bsd4? i am ignorant on that topic
16:36:17 <scarf> cheater: the "odious advertising clause"
16:36:30 <cheater> oh, they still make new versions of the unmodified?
16:36:33 <scarf> basically, the fourth clause of the original BSD licence basically required credit in documentation and on startup
16:36:41 <cheater> i thought they were gone from the new versions
16:36:43 <scarf> they are
16:36:46 <scarf> BSD3 is newer than BSD4
16:36:49 <cheater> oh you mean the bsd 4clause
16:36:51 <scarf> (3-clause BSD, 4-clause bSD)
16:36:52 <scarf> *BSD
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16:37:06 <cheater> yeah, heh
16:37:12 <scarf> and some people, like the currently missing ehird, even advocate 2-clause
16:39:15 * scarf wonders whether to use an existing Java terminal implementation, or roll their own
16:40:08 <scarf> rolling my own has the advantage of being able to put various customisations in, like starting halfway through the ttyrec
16:40:28 <scarf> and marking unknown positions with a "unknown" symbol until they're known
16:41:56 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
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17:09:43 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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17:24:39 <pikhq> scarf: The GNU opinion on "accepting license agreements" is "You must agree in order to use the rights given in the license. Using or installing this software is not one of those rights, so no need to agree with the license."
17:24:49 <pikhq> That also appears to be the opinion by most sane people.
17:24:50 <scarf> pikhq: agreed
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17:58:36 <cpressey> Sooo.... SUSv3 (POSIX) implies the presence of a C99 compiler. And C99 implies the availability of SUSv3 system calls. Therefore C99 <-> POSIX?
17:59:27 <pikhq> No, C99 implies the availability of a small subset of SUSv3 system calls.
17:59:43 <pikhq> And that's only because that's how you *implement* stdio.h.
17:59:57 <pikhq> C99 does not imply, say, fork.
18:01:05 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to uninstall this transformation pack thing
18:02:54 <cpressey> pikhq: Interesting. And somewhat of a relief.
18:03:49 <scarf> different C standards have started taking features from the others, which is not exactly surprising
18:04:18 <cpressey> Although, I don't suppose you know of any sort of rough quick guide as to which headers are C99 and which are POSIX.
18:04:48 <scarf> there's a list of C99 headers at the end of C99 itself
18:04:58 <cpressey> Cool.
18:04:59 <scarf> let me try to find one of the public drafts (the actual standard is behind a paywall)
18:05:11 <cpressey> I think I have a link somewhere...
18:06:15 <Sgeo> Why do you have to pay to see a standard?
18:06:26 <cpressey> Sgeo: that cheeses me off too
18:06:47 <scarf> cpressey: http://www.open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf
18:06:55 <scarf> look at annex B in the table of contents
18:07:12 <scarf> annex B summarises the contents of the headers, the table of contents says which they are
18:07:28 <scarf> although note that for a POSIX build, some things are added by POSIX to the standard C headers, just to annoy you
18:07:30 <cpressey> I found http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/WG14/www/docs/n1256.pdf -- heh, the date at the top is "Septermber 7, 2007"
18:08:01 <scarf> that would presumably be a different draft of the same standard
18:08:16 <scarf> yours is newer than mine, probably works better
18:08:49 <Sgeo> BRB restart home my comp survives
18:09:39 <scarf> incidentally, WG14 made their reasoning behind C99 public: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/C99RationaleV5.10.pdf
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18:16:08 <cpressey> I'm still a bit confused why -std=c89 disallows you from using POSIX things, then, but I suppose it is another case of just annoying me
18:17:13 <scarf> cpressey: it's not "disallow", it's "prevent compatibility problems"
18:17:41 <scarf> it's perfectly legal to have a function called _exit() in a file that includes stdlib.h in C89, for instance
18:17:46 <cpressey> Ah.
18:17:49 <scarf> try that in POSIX, and you'll get an error
18:18:00 <cpressey> Well then it is "disallow", but it's for a good reason.
18:18:05 <scarf> yes
18:18:24 <scarf> (the C99 equivalent is called _Exit(), which isn't allowed in C89 because it starts with an underscore and a capital letter)
18:18:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:20:08 <cpressey> I think every personal project I've written in C99, relies on C99 only because it makes some POSIX call. Mostly nanosleep().
18:20:47 <cpressey> Er, assuming that's POSIX and not some BSDism or something that just happens to be widely supported, would have to double check that.
18:21:43 <scarf> UNIX standardisation is a mess
18:21:44 <cpressey> Yeah, it is. ok.
18:21:59 <cpressey> (nanosleep is in POSIX, I mean)
18:22:27 * scarf wonders how long it will be before a picosleep becomes necessary
18:22:40 <cpressey> Eerm
18:23:00 <scarf> computers aren't fast enough for it to be useful yet
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18:23:31 <scarf> I've certainly written real-time Linux applications which grabbed hold of the scheduler and used carefully timed pauses to communicate with an external device in bursts
18:23:32 <cpressey> Eeerrm no, not yet.
18:24:11 <scarf> (this was for an embedded system; telling the scheduler not to interrupt your process at all until it tells the other processes it's their turn is not the sort of thing you regularly do on a desktop OS)
18:25:12 <cpressey> AmigaOS forbid() and permit() come to mind.
18:26:04 <cpressey> Cooperative multitasking is so nice.
18:26:34 * Sgeo needs to stop appearing in XML
18:27:16 <scarf> cpressey: I dealt with it back when I was writing windows 3.1 programs
18:27:59 <scarf> and Linux has a cooperative-multitasking scheduler, but you need to be root, and include an unusual library, to be able to trigger it
18:28:10 <Sgeo> <user><stub_uid></stub_uid><ustat></ustat><pgeo></pgeo><sgeo>0</sgeo>
18:28:32 <Sgeo> source of http://www.stubhub.com/all-cities/unc-tickets/
18:28:33 <scarf> </scarf></user></Sgeo>
18:36:06 * Sgeo should probably eat food at some point
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18:42:52 <scarf> "A program whose output is affected by the value returned by a call to setlocale might not be strictly conforming. If the only way in which the result affects the final output is by determining, directly or indirectly, whether to make another call to setlocale, then the program remains strictly conforming; but if the result affects the output in some other way, then it does not."
18:43:38 <scarf> how nicely tortuous
18:46:23 <cpressey> I would have said torturous
18:47:15 <scarf> there's something nicely eso about a function whose only purpose is to determine whether to call it again
18:47:18 <oklopol> what the hell
18:47:30 <scarf> unfortunately, setlocale has side effects, meaning that it isn't quite so purely beautiful
18:47:34 <Sgeo> scarf, it would be worse if it didn't have ..
18:47:35 <Sgeo> right
18:49:31 <scarf> hmm, among other things, that means it's an undecidable problem to tell whether a C99 program is strictly conforming
18:50:01 <scarf> you could make a turing machine of locales, or something
18:50:34 <cpressey> I like how most undecidable problems suggest Turing-complete esolangs
18:50:37 <scarf> (admittedly, you can do that /anyway/ in C99, but doing it with locales would be funny)
18:50:45 <cpressey> It's the setlocale tarpit!
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18:51:06 <scarf> cpressey: I read an article about cache effects recently
18:51:10 <scarf> and was wondering about making an esolang out of those
18:51:26 <scarf> e.g. multiple threads each of which can only store finite data each, but you can have arbitrarily many
18:51:46 <scarf> and the only way they can communicate is by accessing lots of memory really quickly to change the relative running speeds of the others
18:52:16 <cpressey> That could work, as a design...
18:53:22 <cpressey> bbl -- need food.
18:53:27 <scarf> it would be horrendously nonportable, but I think that's a plus
18:54:34 <Sgeo> What happened to the deliberately slow language?
18:54:44 <scarf> SLOBOL?
18:54:52 <scarf> I think people just forgot about it, it wasn't particularly interesting
18:57:36 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
18:57:41 <Sgeo_> Accidental hibernation is fun!
18:57:59 <Sgeo_> Not SLOBOL
18:58:29 <Sgeo_> The one olsner was making, with the conversion between base e and pi, or whatever
18:58:43 <scarf> ah
18:58:48 <scarf> I don't know about that one
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19:01:02 <Sgeo_> How easy/difficult would it be for someone with a weak grasp of Javascript to attempt to fix a WebKit specific issue with a website?
19:01:28 <scarf> not massively difficult, although the problem might not be in the javascript
19:01:36 <scarf> it rather depends on what the issue is, I'd imagine
19:01:46 * Sgeo_ will attempt it
19:01:56 <Sgeo_> Maybe make a Greasemonkey script
19:02:20 <Sgeo_> Be the savior of everyone at my school who loves Chrome and refuses to use Firefox or IE or IETab just for this specific site
19:02:39 <Sgeo_> (That set includes me. I doubt that it includes anyone else, but still)
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19:11:52 <FireFly> Hmmm
19:12:58 <FireFly> Is there a certain name for a higher-order function which takes two lists of the same length, and applies a function to the first element in both lists, the second, and so on?
19:13:12 <FireFly> And then returns the result as a new list
19:13:19 <Deewiant> zipWith
19:13:24 <FireFly> Ah, thanks
19:14:02 <augur> oklopol!
19:14:17 <oklopol> meeeeeeeeeee
19:14:33 <augur> did you actually recognize that description of a graph-to-tree transformation i described last night?
19:15:15 <Deewiant> augur: Transitive closure?
19:15:28 <augur> Deewiant: uh.. i dont _think_ so but who knows
19:15:48 <Deewiant> If you have a DAG, anyway.
19:16:12 <augur> it was a transformation that took a rooted graph and turned it into a tree where the daughters of each node N were the nodes N' that N was connected to by an edge in the graph
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19:16:52 <augur> e.g. if your graph was { ab, bc, ac } rooted at a, the tree node for a would have tree nodes for a b and c as its daughters
19:17:05 <Deewiant> Ah, not transitive then. I thought you'd get all N' that could be reached from N.
19:17:10 <augur> the nodes for b would have a b c as its daughters, etc.
19:17:23 <cpressey> Sounds more like a spanning tree -- sort of the reverse of transitive closure.
19:17:28 <augur> a spanning tree huh
19:17:32 <Sgeo_> Awesome! avast has a virus-scanning screensaver
19:17:39 <cpressey> Not exactly, but similar
19:17:49 <augur> no, not a spanning tree at all :(
19:18:28 <cpressey> ...union of all possible spanning trees? :)
19:18:41 <augur> :P
19:18:42 <augur> no
19:18:45 <augur> even then!
19:18:51 <augur> the resulting tree is infinitely large
19:19:11 <cpressey> Ah.
19:20:59 <Sgeo_> If I run a screensaver at the same time XP turns off my monitor, will the screensaver still run?
19:21:02 <cpressey> So by most definitions of "tree" it's actually not a tree :)
19:21:17 <augur> well it SORT of is :P
19:21:18 <oklopol> absolutely nothing to do with a spanning tree if you ask me
19:21:32 <Sgeo_> (The screensaver has side-effects)
19:22:12 <oklopol> i don't know the name for the structure, but really it is the exact same mathematical object in some sense
19:22:24 <augur> oklopol: same as what?
19:22:36 <oklopol> i mean if you just care about how things are connected to each other
19:22:39 <cpressey> Sounds more like the closure of all infinite paths through the graph to me, now.
19:22:49 <oklopol> augur: as the original graph
19:22:57 <augur> oh, yes, thats part of the point actually
19:23:10 <augur> i dont remember who first showed it to me, someone here i think
19:23:26 <oklopol> cpressey: what does "closure" mean there?
19:23:28 <augur> and at the time i thought, gosh thats useless isnt it
19:23:46 <augur> but ive actually realized that its immensely important to something im working on
19:23:47 <oklopol> well maybe that's a stupid question
19:23:53 <cpressey> oklopol: well, union over a countable set, i think.
19:24:16 <oklopol> countable set of what? or is that your definition for closure?
19:24:51 <cpressey> Countable set of infinite paths, in this case.
19:25:04 <cpressey> At least I hope that's countable :)
19:25:46 <oklopol> it's not; and what's the union of paths? do you take the set of nodes from each path and take the union of them?
19:25:52 <oklopol> you'll get the connected component as a set
19:26:36 <oklopol> consider a graph that forms a triangle, everytime you move you have two choices, now consider reals in binary representation
19:27:03 <cpressey> These are good questions; I don't have answers, since I only started thinking about this 10 minutes ago. :P
19:28:23 <oklopol> closure usually means you have some set of things, and you have something you can do, and if the set is "closed under" the thing you can do, it's a closure of that thing
19:28:48 <cpressey> Well, can you have closures of uncountable sets?
19:29:01 <MissPiggy> what!!
19:29:25 <augur> MissPiggy! :o
19:29:26 <oklopol> topological closures are sets that are closed under convergent sequences
19:29:35 <oklopol> topology is all about uncountability
19:29:50 <cpressey> So is that a "yes"?
19:30:01 <oklopol> sure
19:30:46 <oklopol> i mean if i understood what you meant
19:31:12 <oklopol> "can you take the closure of an uncountably large set w.r.t. some operation"
19:32:12 <cpressey> OK, so what'
19:32:26 <cpressey> One sec.
19:32:45 <cpressey> So what's left is to define the operation.
19:33:12 <cpressey> So you have a graph with n nodes, and for each node there's a (potentially) uncountable set of infinite paths that starts at it.
19:33:28 <oklopol> this is a truth
19:34:02 <cpressey> And each path is a countable list of nodes, is it fair to say that?
19:34:27 <oklopol> a path in a graph is a function from N to the set of nodes, imo
19:34:36 <oklopol> an infinite graph that is
19:35:05 <oklopol> and if f is the path, you have for all n that the edge (f(n), f(n+1)) is in the graph
19:35:16 <cpressey> OK, fair enough, but can it be represented as a countable list of nodes?
19:35:42 <oklopol> well there's a surjection from N isn't there :P
19:36:10 <cpressey> But the graph I'm talking about it's infinite (yet).
19:36:16 <oklopol> i mean if we define a path as a function from N to the nodes, then clearly there will only be |N| nodes in there
19:36:33 <cpressey> I mean, I was under the impression that the origiinal thing was to be applied to finite graphs. I could be wrong.
19:36:34 <oklopol> so... yes
19:36:41 <oklopol> yes, most likely
19:36:49 <cpressey> Simpler that way, anyway :)
19:37:11 <oklopol> infinite graphs are sexy
19:37:35 <oklopol> coding theory is one of my current obsessions
19:38:34 <cpressey> So... to sketch the operation for closure I'm thinking of... in a finite graph g: for each set of paths starting at node n: for each node m in the list of nodes in the path: replace m with the set of paths that start at m in g
19:38:43 <cpressey> That's sloppy, but hopefully it captures the idea
19:39:10 <cpressey> You're actually making copies of the nodes in g
19:39:26 <oklopol> the thing is the result must be a tree
19:39:36 <cpressey> See, I don't see that part :)
19:39:51 <oklopol> a closure is usually the closure of a set
19:39:59 <oklopol> you don't "see" it?
19:40:00 <cpressey> Well, ok, maybe I do.
19:40:01 <cpressey> It
19:40:13 <cpressey> It's a tree, because you're making copies of the nodes from g
19:40:30 <cpressey> So you have no cycles.
19:40:56 <oklopol> anyway the thing is if you have a finite thing, and your operations only give you more finite things if their parameters are finite, then the closure will be *finite*
19:41:03 <oklopol> i mean, the objects in it will be finite
19:41:27 <cpressey> Well, true. If the original graph in this case is a tree (no cycles thus no infinite paths,) the result of applying this... whatsit... is finite.
19:41:28 <oklopol> arbitrarily big, sure, but finite things are usually closed under operations
19:41:38 <oklopol> or "finiteness" is
19:41:58 <oklopol> even without cycles the result contains infinite paths
19:42:01 <oklopol> you can return
19:42:09 <oklopol> well, okay, directed plus no loops and maybe
19:43:03 <cpressey> If "without cycles the result contains infinite paths" then I don't understand the construction, sorry :)
19:43:29 <oklopol> see, if you have an undirected graph, then every edge is a loop
19:43:34 <cpressey> Oh, undirected.
19:43:38 <cpressey> Mrrrh :)
19:43:53 <oklopol> i don't know, but that's why "well, okay, directed plus no loops and maybe"
19:44:03 <cpressey> Yeah.
19:44:05 <augur> universal covering graph!
19:44:06 <oklopol> in any case no one said no loops
19:44:14 <augur> thats the closest ive seen to it, oklopol
19:44:22 <augur> infact its EXACTLY what i want
19:44:35 <augur> minus reflexing edges
19:44:41 <augur> but thats ok, because thats dependent on the graph
19:46:23 <oklopol> it's just for trees says wp
19:46:38 <cpressey> Hard to imagine the usefulness of an infinite tree in a practical application, but then, I'm not a mathematician :)
19:46:42 <oklopol> but it also gives a definition that works without that assumption
19:46:43 <oklopol> so yeah
19:47:11 <oklopol> cpressey: infinite just means you don't have to care it's finite.
19:47:23 <cpressey> Ah. Indeed.
19:47:27 <oklopol> extendable
19:47:36 <cpressey> You could even code this up as some sort of lazy generator...
19:47:41 <oklopol> my back.... hurts...
19:47:43 <augur> oklopol: actually its for any connected graph
19:47:54 <augur> cpressey: its totally lazy, yeah
19:48:06 <oklopol> For any connected graph G, it is possible to construct its universal covering graph.[1] This is an instance of the more general universal cover concept from topology; the topological requirement that a universal cover be simply connected translates in graph-theoretic terms to a requirement that it be acyclic and connected; that is, a tree.
19:48:10 <oklopol> this is what i meant
19:48:15 <oklopol> but also read
19:48:17 <oklopol> "but it also gives a definition that works without that assumption"
19:48:18 <augur> infact, it doesnt even have to be lazy, since as oklopol points out, the universal covering graph is essentially just the graph itself
19:48:42 <augur> atleast as far as you can tell locally
19:48:48 <cpressey> Wellll... you're kind of "looking at it lazily" :)
19:48:50 <oklopol> yeah... and god my back hurts
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19:49:10 <oklopol> cpressey: i prefer to think of it as a graph iterator
19:49:36 <cpressey> "From this node, as far as I can tell by looking at my immediate edges, I am in fact surrounded by an infinite tree!!"
19:49:36 <oklopol> than a graph generator
19:50:09 <cpressey> Now to apply this to Hunt the Wumpus somehow.
19:52:38 <oklopol> i don't believe in wumpi
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20:08:28 <oerjan> um you guys, this is really quite simple: the vertices of your tree are the _paths_ from the root of your original graph.
20:08:49 <cpressey> That's what I was trying to say, in a painful, pseudo-mathematical way.
20:09:30 <oerjan> very well then.
20:11:03 <cpressey> Er, and I realize now I was possibly saying something much uglier. (Every node of the tree would have an uncountable number of branches. That's overkill.)
20:11:23 <oerjan> ah.
20:11:27 <oklopol> oerjan: that's the answer to how to represent it as a closure?
20:11:36 <oklopol> or is it the answer to what its name is?
20:11:51 <oklopol> these were the two questions that were asked, not sure of others
20:11:59 <oerjan> it's the answer to how to define it easily...
20:12:06 <cpressey> I don't know if it's an answer, but it's a succinct way to describe it.
20:12:07 <oklopol> i see
20:13:07 <oklopol> didn't know that was an issue, anyway probably the tree doesn't actually contain the infinite paths, prolly came up with that myself
20:13:21 <oklopol> don't have augur's original q
20:13:40 <oklopol> because it would be a pretty weird tree :P
20:13:55 <oerjan> oklopol: unless your name is John Gabriel ;D
20:14:02 <oklopol> hah
20:15:02 <oklopol> the infinite paths would be separate connected components of the graph wouldn't they
20:15:13 <oklopol> i mean components of one node
20:15:25 <oklopol> ...i guess we'd need some sort of definition first
20:15:38 <oerjan> oh i meant finite paths
20:15:51 <oerjan> right
20:16:28 <oklopol> yeah i know you did, but i didn't, i said there'd be an uncountable amount of paths, because for some reason i thought the infinite paths would be there too
20:16:28 <oerjan> well with the right topology, you could have the finite paths converge at infinite ones
20:16:48 <oklopol> hmm
20:17:07 <oklopol> a graph's connectedness is just topological connectedness?
20:17:29 <oerjan> if you include the edges as lines, so
20:17:46 <oklopol> i mean they're pretty discrete things...
20:17:48 <oerjan> otherwice the vertices seem somewhat isolated
20:18:25 <oerjan> so the finite paths would form a discrete topology, while the infinite paths they converge to would be the non-isolated points
20:18:40 <oklopol> afaiu, really you could only define open sets sensibly as connected components, or discrete topology.
20:18:46 <oklopol> hmm
20:18:48 <oklopol> oh
20:19:09 * Sgeo_ remembers when his math teacher (in 6th grade) put a question on our tests "Do your socks have holes in them"
20:19:27 <Sgeo_> It was one of those joke questions, where the correct answer was that yes, all of them do
20:19:36 <Sgeo_> But in a topological sense, they do not
20:20:09 <oklopol> so our open sets would be generated by {x} for all nodes x, and for all infinite paths, any of their infinite suffices
20:20:17 <oerjan> actually for an acyclic graph you also have some non-hausdorff options, you can let the closure of a vertex be all the vertices reachable from it
20:20:33 <oerjan> (hm scratch acyclic, that works anyhow i think)
20:21:12 <oklopol> Sgeo_: unless you consider them complex entanglements of strings!
20:21:32 <oklopol> ooooh, sock theory, is there a complete categorization of topological socks?
20:22:16 <oklopol> oerjan: err, do you mean taking as closed sets the connected components in the graph sense?
20:22:31 <oerjan> in fact there is iirc a direct correspondence between finite T0 spaces and trees
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20:22:53 <oerjan> oklopol: oh no, i'm assuming a directed graph
20:22:56 <oerjan> er
20:23:00 <oerjan> s/trees/forests/
20:23:11 <oerjan> oh no wait
20:23:30 <oerjan> *in fact there is iirc a direct correspondence between finite T0 spaces and finite partial orders
20:23:46 <oerjan> actually that might be forests too
20:23:50 <oklopol> so what exactly would the topology be?
20:24:10 <oklopol> umm
20:24:16 <oklopol> oh
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20:24:36 <oklopol> closed sets = for all nodes x all vertices reachable from x?
20:24:42 <oerjan> yeah
20:24:45 <oklopol> ah cool
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20:25:00 <oklopol> sexy stuff
20:25:09 <oerjan> you could also make that the definition of open, well that's just reversing the graph really
20:25:33 <oerjan> for finite spaces the axioms for open sets == the axioms for closed sets
20:26:12 <oklopol> ah, good point
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20:40:35 <cpressey> That's actually the first time I've ever seen topology and graph theory linked in a coherent way. Not that I really understand what oerjan said...
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20:42:07 <oklopol> whoops
20:42:42 <oklopol> anyway limits require a topology, and linking finite and infinite things in a sensible way is usually done via limits
20:43:00 <oklopol> (of some sort)
20:43:42 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has joined.
20:44:03 -!- ehird_ has joined.
20:44:09 <ehird_> Zero days since last ehird sighting.
20:44:10 <cpressey> It seems like it's harder to find literature on discrete topology -- I got the impression topologists don't consider it as interesting as the other kinds. Ditto infinite groups (finite groups are so much more exciting!)
20:44:18 * oerjan hug tackles ehird
20:44:18 <cpressey> Oh hi ehird_.
20:44:39 <oerjan> you're alive!
20:44:51 <ehird_> Yes, but it doesn't feel it. I can't believe my life at the moment.
20:44:54 <oklopol> hello ehird_, i'm just as excited about your arrival as the others
20:45:10 <oerjan> oh dear
20:45:22 <oklopol> cpressey: discrete topology means every set is open, which essentially just means you have a set.
20:45:52 <ehird_> I think I've disappeared this long before for similar reasons; maybe I was just especially awesome before disappearing.
20:46:09 <oklopol> the topology of a space is a family of subsets of the powerset of the objects in the space (to put it very simply), if you have all the subsets, there's really no need to even have them explicitly.
20:46:16 -!- oerjan has set topic: RIP sun.com | 0 days since last ehird_ sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:46:23 <oklopol> the book would basically be about set theory.
20:46:45 <oklopol> infinite vs finite groups is a completely different matter
20:46:58 <ehird_> If anyone wants me to explain, I will, in /msg. I don't want it to be logged.
20:47:11 <cpressey> oklopol: Gotcha.
20:47:23 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:47:46 <cpressey> (by which I mean "I see", in case there was any ambiguity)
20:48:02 <oklopol> i don't think there was
20:48:35 <oklopol> maybe "gotcha" is easier to interpret as "i have no idea what you mean"
20:48:44 <oklopol> than "i see" which is more neutral
20:48:58 <cpressey> Well, there's the "Gotcha!" as in "Aha! Now you're trapped!"
20:49:11 <cpressey> Which I didn't mean.
20:50:04 <oklopol> hmm, i guess
20:50:55 <oklopol> "the topology of a space is a family of subsets of the powerset of the objects in the space" just seems like something you might want to not try to understand. or maybe it's just me
20:51:04 <oklopol> i mean
20:51:10 <oklopol> it's even wrong
20:51:13 <oklopol> let's retry
20:51:33 <oklopol> the topology of a space is a *subset* of the powerset of the set objects in the space
20:52:20 <oklopol> clearly i couldn't handle such a long string of information
20:52:58 <cpressey> I have in my head some fuzzy notion of "discrete topology" that isn't the same as the definition by that name (which I did read and understand once, a long time ago now,) and I get them mixed up. It's coming back to me now, a bit. More obvious why it's not terribly interesting.
20:54:03 * Sgeo wonders if http://codepad.org/UCmJrhSx is a good explanation to someone who's not in Computer Programming
20:54:37 <cpressey> I mean, people in CS throw around terms like "network topology", but from all that I tried to read in actual topology literature, it sounds like a minor abuse of the term "topology". Network topology is far more like graph theory, no?
20:55:06 <MissPiggy> topology
20:56:15 <augur> toplology
20:56:22 <cpressey> Sgeo: looks fairly decent
20:57:29 <cpressey> Sgeo: might be worth pointing out that statements can only go inside functions
21:02:54 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:03:20 -!- coppro has joined.
21:23:32 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
21:25:14 <ehird_> Hi coppro.
21:25:51 <coppro> He's back!
21:25:59 <pikhq> He liveth!
21:26:22 <ehird_> Yes. Methinks I should link you both to the log of #esoteric-priv so you know what the hell's up.
21:26:49 <pikhq> Perhaps.
21:26:58 <ehird_> http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa
21:27:07 <ehird_> Oh, that's logged.
21:27:11 <ehird_> But not easily googleable.
21:27:18 <ehird_> You know what, I don't care.
21:27:55 <MissPiggy> ehird why did you leave
21:28:00 <ehird_> In true utilitarian form, I'm sorry for dragging you into this and probably making you sadder as a result.
21:28:06 <MissPiggy> what the hell is priv
21:28:08 <ehird_> MissPiggy: Click the link. It wasn't voluntary.
21:28:16 <ehird_> #esoteric-priv as in private, I created it just to relay that.
21:28:21 <coppro> O_o
21:28:32 <ehird_> O_o is pretty much perfect.
21:28:50 <ehird_> I'd suspect myself of hallucinating all this if it weren't so fucking gritty.
21:28:54 <MissPiggy> so are you okay now?
21:29:06 <ehird_> No. I'm still not free.
21:29:13 <pikhq> Y'know, that's perhaps the most retarded way of treating... Anything.
21:29:20 <pikhq> Particularly Asperger's.
21:29:22 <coppro> agree with pikhq :(
21:29:57 <MissPiggy> what the fuck
21:30:04 <MissPiggy> ehird are you in UK
21:30:14 <ehird_> Yes.
21:30:22 <pikhq> (the expected reaction from removing an autistic patient from something they're obsessed about ranges from passive-agressive fucking with the doctors or having a meltdown. Don't fuck with that shit.)
21:30:37 <pikhq> s/or/to/
21:30:57 <MissPiggy> ehird so when will you be allowed to resume?
21:31:34 <ehird_> Resume what, exactly? Sorry if I'm not being so good at communication, I've had no meaningful form of it for god knows how long.
21:31:58 <MissPiggy> I mean like not be detained by these people?
21:32:13 <pikhq> ehird_: When is the soonest that you can get the fuck out of Britain? :P
21:32:22 <ehird_> When I... /msg time, I don't want this to be logged.
21:32:37 <coppro> ehird_: contact your media
21:33:19 <ehird_> Yes, I've been suggested that multiple times tonight. I'm seriously considering it now.
21:33:41 <coppro> from what I've heard, the British media can be especially harsh
21:34:08 <ehird_> You have no idea.
21:34:36 <coppro> "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"
21:35:45 <Sgeo> ehird_'s back!
21:36:00 <pikhq> ehird_: When the hell did that mess start, anyways?
21:36:00 <ehird_> Sgeo: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa
21:36:19 * oerjan thought we weren't going to talk about this in this channel.
21:36:24 <oerjan> *cough*
21:36:26 <ehird_> pikhq: Its origins reach back a year... or two, I don't know... this whole unit thing (the place is a "unit") started, um, late last year.
21:36:26 * pikhq missed that
21:36:32 <ehird_> Like say september or slightly earlier.
21:36:38 <ehird_> oerjan: I really can't care any more.
21:36:44 <ehird_> If they find the logs, so be it.
21:37:36 <coppro> like, I'm seriously considering contacting someone myself about this :/
21:37:53 <ehird_> Well, please ask me first...
21:38:27 <coppro> yeah
21:38:46 <coppro> you're clearly smart enough to know what they're doing is bad for you
21:39:10 <pikhq> coppro: Britain's handling of mental health issues is just royally fucked up in general...
21:39:22 <coppro> Apparently
21:39:57 <pikhq> Heard one too many horror stories from British friends.
21:40:12 <pikhq> ... One to many? Try far too many. Anyways.
21:40:21 <coppro> What really scares me is that even his parents can't stop them
21:40:34 <pikhq> coppro: Big Brother knows best!
21:40:47 * coppro cuddles the CoRaF
21:41:48 * pikhq pulls up the Convention on the Rights of the Child...
21:42:06 <ehird_> Child's rights, a better punchline I've not heard.
21:42:46 <pikhq> ehird_: It's law in all countries other than the US and Somalia.
21:43:11 <ehird_> But in the modern world, in practice, children have basically no rights.
21:44:18 <coppro> thankfully, that's not the case everywhere
21:44:20 <cpressey> Not to belittle the situation in any way -- I'm a bit surprised at how unsurprised I am at this.
21:44:57 <ehird_> cpressey: It surprised me only because I was the one it was happening to.
21:45:01 <pikhq> Darned thing doesn't allow parents to veto the state.
21:45:05 <ehird_> No belittling taken.
21:45:07 <pikhq> That's a freaking useless document.
21:45:39 <ehird_> In case anyone doesn't know (cpressey might not, for instance) I'm 14
21:46:26 <coppro> do you know if there's any legal recourse your parents can take?
21:47:01 <coppro> (besides seeking asylum elsewhere)
21:47:31 <ehird_> Well, in the courts I suppose they could preemptively battle sectioning; the outcome of that would, I assume, be either me being sectioned or a confirmation that they would not be allowed to section me unless my situation changed significantly.
21:47:57 <ehird_> The prospect of the outcome being me being sectioned (I already stopped attending once, a second rebellion and they would not trust me at all) makes me extremely wary of that option.
21:48:27 <coppro> what does "sectioned" mean?
21:48:43 <ehird_> Institutionalised.
21:49:11 <coppro> :(
21:49:20 <Sgeo> How is it that you're out now?
21:49:40 <ehird_> It's the weekends. I get weekends home. That was one of the things they threatened not to give me if I was sectioned.
21:49:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: Monday-Friday
21:49:45 <ehird_> *weekend
21:49:46 <Sgeo> Ah
21:50:20 <pikhq> ehird_: If I were you, I'd be contacting the press and seeking asylum.
21:50:21 <MissPiggy> so you have to stay there overnight ??
21:51:56 <ehird_> MissPiggy: yes.
21:52:12 <MissPiggy> this is not right
21:52:26 <MissPiggy> I am very sorry for you being in this horrible situation
21:52:44 <ehird_> Thank you
21:53:17 <coppro> yeah, this is seriously awful :(
21:53:34 <MissPiggy> I don't trust the media about anything, I am not sure if that would be to your advantage or not?
21:53:44 <ehird_> I don't know.
21:53:49 <ehird_> They certainly generate massive publicity.
21:53:59 <ehird_> I'm a wreck right now, I guess I've been bottling this up for weeks...
21:53:59 <coppro> Publicity is likely to be in your favor
21:54:07 <coppro> but not for certain
21:54:14 <ehird_> It's just hit me how insane this all is...
21:54:19 * oklopol would take institutionalization over publicity...
21:56:30 <oklopol> maybe i'll go get some coke before someone notices i'm insane and removes that freedom ->
21:56:52 <Ilari> At least they are not shooting him up on insulin to make him gain weight... :-/
21:57:01 <pikhq> I count myself glad that I'm in the US, where our mental health system almost does not exist. :P
21:57:05 <coppro> I don't think this should be anything but a last resort, but looking at the papers, I think you'd qualify for refugee status to Canada.
21:57:21 <ehird_> Canada's nice, but yes, last resort.
21:57:30 <ehird_> If moving I'd much rather do it the regular way if at all possible.
21:57:36 <coppro> not sure about elsewhere, because you don't qualify under the Convention
21:57:52 <pikhq> ehird_: Just straight-up moving there is pretty easy for you, though.
21:57:58 <ehird_> I'm sure lucky that you guys are clever.
21:58:02 <pikhq> Hooray, Commonwealth.
21:58:24 <ehird_> Europe is the most likely place to move to
21:58:30 <ehird_> Dead easy to move around the EU
21:58:33 <coppro> yeah
21:58:56 <coppro> I was mostly looking at Canadian immigration law to satisfy my own curiosity
21:59:31 <ehird_> Thanks for this guys you have no idea how much this means to me, fuck it i'm descending into cliche land
21:59:50 <MissPiggy> don't worry about that :P
22:00:05 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:00:34 <ehird_> One thing's for sure. It'd have taken a hell of a long eternity for anyone to guess this when I said I was only on sporadically because my life's fucked up
22:00:54 <oklopol> i thought your mom said no computer
22:00:54 <coppro> yeah. It's better for you to come out, because now we can be worried about you if you disappear again
22:00:56 <oklopol> ;P
22:01:06 <oklopol> (seriously)
22:01:18 <ehird_> My mother isn't stupid. :)
22:01:31 <oklopol> yeah i know, but that was my first thought
22:01:33 <ehird_> coppro: Oh, I almost forgot! I'm gay. Joking :p
22:01:38 <oklopol> eh, the coek
22:01:41 <coppro> :P
22:01:49 <coppro> not that I'd care
22:02:39 <oklopol> was our bet about just girls?
22:03:20 <oklopol> probably not
22:03:54 <coppro> ehird: I'd say your Article 5 right under the European Convention on Human Rights is being violated
22:03:55 <oklopol> because if it was just about girls, then i'd totally be against you being homosexual
22:04:23 <Ilari> oklopol: Coke? Wanting to damage liver? :-)
22:04:39 <coppro> *ehird_
22:04:42 <pikhq> coppro: Which one's that?
22:04:44 <oklopol> by coke i mean the blackish drink, or did you mean that as well?
22:04:55 <coppro> pikhq: liberty and security of person ("liberty" being the key bit)
22:05:13 <Ilari> oklopol: Yes.
22:05:19 <oklopol> damages liver?
22:05:26 <pikhq> coppro: Ah, right.
22:05:31 <oklopol> what have you been reading
22:05:56 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_5_of_the_European_Convention_on_Human_Rights
22:06:02 <pikhq> Also a violation of the Article 3 of the Universal Decleration of Human Rights.
22:06:27 <Ilari> oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM (as introduction).
22:06:42 <coppro> pikhq: but the Universal Declaration does not have legal force in the UK
22:06:52 <coppro> the European Convention has direct legal force
22:07:01 <ehird_> [22:03] <coppro> ehird: I'd say your Article 5 right under the European Convention on Human Rights is being violated
22:07:05 <ehird_> yikes.
22:07:14 <oklopol> "e. the lawful detention of persons for the prevention of the spreading of infectious diseases, of persons of unsound mind, alcoholics or drug addicts or vagrants;" fits anyone
22:07:17 <pikhq> coppro: Yes it does.
22:07:27 <coppro> pikhq it does?
22:07:46 <Sgeo> oklopol, I'd imagine though that they'd have to be told for what, though
22:07:48 <pikhq> coppro: Only Somalia and the US have *not* ratified it.
22:08:24 <coppro> you mean the Convention on the Rights of the Child?
22:08:40 <pikhq> Erm. Right, that was ratified.
22:08:51 <pikhq> The Declaration is just that -- not enforced at all.
22:08:53 <pikhq> Thinko. :/
22:08:53 <coppro> right
22:09:14 <coppro> but the UK Human Rights Act of 1998 directly puts the European Convention into force
22:09:22 <Ilari> oklopol: Its the sugar in the coke that does the damage...
22:10:04 <cpressey> Ilari: What kind of lies are you spreading about there being sugar in Coke??? That, my friend, is nothing but genuine high-fructose corn syrup!
22:10:33 <ehird_> cpressey: marry me.
22:11:03 <Ilari> cpressey: Sugar and HFCS are pretty much the same health-wise (i.e. nasty).
22:11:47 <cpressey> See, that's what we Americans do to protect our precious bodily fluids instead of ratifying meaningless pfft declarations of pfft. Also, fluoride in tap water, and mercury in fillings.
22:12:35 <pikhq> Ilari: Not really.
22:12:55 <cpressey> True, I'm actually a Canadian. But if I stay here long enough I'll eventually turn into one of them...
22:12:56 <pikhq> Ilari: HFCS encourages greater consumption.
22:13:19 <pikhq> Our obsession with corn syrup is part of *why* Americans eat so damned much.
22:13:24 -!- [newbie] has joined.
22:14:03 <Ilari> Sugar + Refined grains => Trouble. That has been seen over and over again.
22:14:07 -!- SimonRC has joined.
22:14:24 <pikhq> Yes. HFCS is just more trouble than straight sugar.
22:14:47 <oklopol> okay i'm wanting coke more and more by the minute, have to get some before watching more ->
22:15:19 <coppro> ehird_: If you need to talk seriously about anything, I'm here, and I suspect that most of the rest of the channel will be too
22:15:29 <ehird_> Thank you.
22:15:30 -!- [newbie] has quit (Client Quit).
22:15:34 <ehird_> Is this not serious? :-)
22:15:42 <coppro> this is 100% serious :)
22:16:00 * oerjan does the 100% serious dance
22:16:01 <ehird_> But yes, I will most likely need advice very soon...
22:16:12 -!- [newbie] has joined.
22:16:16 <pikhq> ehird_: Hmm. As a Commonwealth citizen, you are *nearly* a citizen of Canada already....
22:16:19 <Sgeo> Same here, but I probably can't be as helpful
22:16:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:16:44 <ehird_> pikhq: if I moved to canada how easy would it be for the uk to retrieve me
22:16:58 <Sgeo> (As in, I'm willing to listen, not that I need help)
22:17:03 -!- [newbie] has changed nick to MigoMipo.
22:17:06 <pikhq> ehird_: Non-trivial.
22:17:26 <coppro> if you get refugee status (and as I said, I believe you would qualify), very difficult
22:17:59 <MissPiggy> are you sure that escaping is in your best intrest? if you cooperate then it would presumably just be a finite amount of time wasted by this
22:18:13 <pikhq> If you get refugee status, there is but one way for the UK to retrieve you...
22:18:15 <pikhq> War.
22:18:30 <MissPiggy> too bad UK loves going to war...
22:19:05 <ehird_> Without refugee status, though?
22:19:15 <ehird_> MissPiggy: I'm almost entirely sure.
22:19:27 <pikhq> ehird_: Depends.
22:19:34 <pikhq> At what level of government are these actions being done?
22:20:07 <ehird_> Um, the NHS. Nothing's actually being "forced" on me, they're just saying they will force me if I don't do it "voluntarily" through the Mental Health Act.
22:20:11 <ehird_> Which is law.
22:20:21 <Ilari> pikhq: What chemical differences after breaking the alpha linkages there are between Sugar and HFCS than sightly higher amount of fructose (55% vs. 50%) in HFCS?
22:20:39 -!- comex has changed nick to comexbot.
22:20:41 <coppro> It would still be pretty difficult
22:20:49 <ehird_> pikhq: Careful. Ilari has studied the shit out of nutrition.
22:20:55 <pikhq> NHS can't do jack shit to a foreign resident.
22:21:09 <pikhq> Ilari: Alas. I should shut up about things I've merely heard about.
22:22:03 <coppro> ehird_: IIRC, they'd need to convince the higher-ups to try and get Canada to issue an extradition order, which probably wouldn't happen. If they managed to get an order, you could fight it in the legal system on the basis that your rights would be violated
22:22:31 <pikhq> ehird_: I think the Crown in Right of Canada could force you back to the UK. Short of that, though, not much.
22:22:41 <ehird_> What about another EU country?
22:22:47 <coppro> I don't know about the EU
22:23:00 <coppro> pikhq: I don't think that falls under the Prerogative
22:23:19 <pikhq> coppro: Mmm. Right.
22:23:23 <coppro> and it would, in any case, still be subject to being fought in the Courts. The Charter is a powerful piece of law.
22:23:45 <coppro> (quite possibly the strongest piece of human rights law in the world)
22:23:55 <pikhq> ehird_: They'd have to find you.
22:24:01 <pikhq> And then sue the country you're in at the time.
22:24:16 <pikhq> Meanwhile, you could go a few miles to the next country. :P
22:24:42 <Ilari> pikhq: HFCS is infamous, yes. But it might not be (much) worse than sugar.
22:24:47 <coppro> I'd expect they'd just ignore you if you left
22:24:49 <Sgeo> Are there downsides to refugee status?
22:25:04 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's non-trivial to get.
22:25:12 <pikhq> Especially compared to just moving.
22:25:28 <pikhq> Particularly compared to moving in the EU...
22:25:37 <coppro> yeah, moving in the EU is a breeze comparatively
22:25:43 <pikhq> (which is a matter of just leaving...)
22:25:55 <coppro> the biggest trick about refugee status is that you must have left your country already
22:27:03 <Ilari> I haven't studied "the shit out of nutrion" there are lots of people who know much more. But compared to most ordinary people...
22:27:07 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:28:17 <Sgeo> Ilari, that's roughly where I am with programming knowledge. #esoteric is people who know much more. "ordinary people" is all the students in the programming track..
22:28:44 -!- _MigoMipo_ has joined.
22:28:46 <coppro> On the whole, #esoteric probably contains at least one person who knows more than most ordinary people for nearly any subject
22:28:51 <coppro> and if they don't, they know someone who does
22:28:52 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:29:01 -!- _MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo.
22:29:28 <ehird_> coppro: In the cyberfuture, #esoteric will be known as the international hub for the intelligentsia.
22:29:54 * coppro has the Magic: the Gathering department covered
22:29:57 <coppro> :P
22:30:00 <ehird_> Upon those who enter we look at, not with scorn perhaps but with an intense neutrality; and those who ask a question are careful, lest we decide to creatively misinterpret it.
22:30:13 <coppro> :D
22:30:14 <ehird_> We are also, relatedly, known as the international hub of slackers who've never done anything worthwhile anyway.
22:30:24 <coppro> :P
22:30:31 * coppro is going to judge a Pro Tour in two weeks!
22:31:05 <pikhq> coppro: Oh, you're a judge? Niceness.
22:31:19 <coppro> Yeah!
22:31:21 * pikhq is merely a guy who knows the rules very well
22:31:22 <Sgeo> ehird_, considering everything that's happening, I don't know if you really care, but Fine Structure is complete
22:31:24 -!- augur has joined.
22:31:27 <coppro> pikhq: got your RA?
22:31:31 <pikhq> Which helps when friends do things very, very weird.
22:31:39 <pikhq> coppro: ... No.
22:31:45 <coppro> you should try for it
22:31:53 <ehird_> Sgeo: My life is complete once more ;P
22:32:00 <Ilari> When it comes to programming, it seems that some people are just better as programmers (and it isn't about experience).
22:32:03 <ehird_> *:P
22:32:21 <pikhq> (among other things, we have countered a spell by Sharazad, and then using a Ring of Maruf in the subgame to fetch it off the stack.)
22:32:47 <coppro> :D
22:32:54 <coppro> I take it you're mostly old-schoolers then?
22:33:11 <pikhq> No, just very casual.
22:33:20 <pikhq> Which means we end up seeing a lot of *everything* going.
22:33:33 <coppro> nice
22:33:39 <coppro> play EDH!
22:34:46 <pikhq> I've got my Reaper King EDH deck right here.
22:34:53 <coppro> :D
22:35:07 <coppro> there will be EDH side events at the PT, too bad I don't get to play :(
22:37:55 <pikhq> ehird_: So, it seems that in Canada, if you're a refugee you can only be removed from Canada via extradition, if the reason for being a refugee no longer exists, you voluntarily move elsewhere, or you voluntarily become a citizen.
22:38:16 <pikhq> Also, you may apply outside of Canada.
22:38:41 <pikhq> http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/I-2.5/page-4.html#anchorbo-ga:l_2-gb:l_1
22:39:17 <oklopol> coppro has the Magic: the Gathering department covered <<< you're not the only one
22:39:29 <ehird_> oklopol: wouldn't peg you as a magic kind of guy
22:39:34 * Sgeo wonders if he should bring in a friend who's a magic person
22:39:46 <ehird_> anyway guys, um, #esoteric-priv plz, would like to go off the record for some things
22:40:00 -!- whtspc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:41:36 <oklopol> ehird_: actually i've played a considerable amount of it, although i suck at it. but i didn't really mean myself
22:42:27 <coppro> I just meant for this channel
22:42:41 <oklopol> yeah me too, pikhq, zzo, etc
22:42:56 <coppro> Sgeo: #mtg on EFNet
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22:48:46 <cpressey> Speak of the debbil
22:48:57 <cpressey> SORRY
22:49:03 <cpressey> I mean SPEEK of the debbil
22:49:29 <oklopol> Ilari: soon first liter down
23:01:32 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:03:10 <Wareya> I think I already posted this, but
23:03:11 <Wareya> http://cymonsgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=191.0
23:03:31 <Wareya> Turing complete ascii game, haha
23:03:42 <coppro> REDGREEN
23:03:44 <cpressey> You did, but it's still entertaining.
23:03:50 <Wareya> yeah
23:03:52 <cpressey> Rubicon :)
23:03:59 <ehird_> Wareya: Congratulations, you just doubled the lightheartedness of this channel with that one link. :P
23:04:04 <ehird_> (And the ontopicness...)
23:04:17 <cpressey> I wonder if anyone's tried to put together a list of Turing-complete (or nearly so) computer games.
23:04:21 <Wareya> what is the lightheartedness was 0
23:04:24 <Wareya> if*
23:04:36 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:05:44 <ehird_> Wareya: Who knows.
23:05:48 <ehird_> It was something like 1/xkcd.
23:06:03 <Wareya> haha
23:06:03 <ehird_> (In case you haven't seen the log, we've been discussing the glorious matter of how fucked up my life is.)
23:13:15 <augur> cpressey: turing complete computer games?
23:13:58 <augur> GoL!
23:14:11 <oklopol> it's a game?
23:14:11 <MissPiggy> lol
23:14:15 <oklopol> oh...
23:14:18 <augur> GAME of life
23:14:21 <augur> OBVIOUSLY
23:14:38 <oklopol> ah okay i thought you were referring to a possibly existing computer version of the board game
23:14:45 <cpressey> augur: I know one time I was on here, long ago, people were discussing whether Transportation Tycoon is TC
23:14:52 <ehird_> augur: so uh are you remotely interested in how fucked up my life is?
23:14:53 <oklopol> but i guess that's an even better joke
23:14:54 <augur> chess is turing ocmplete
23:15:05 <augur> ehird_: always!
23:15:08 <cpressey> scarf claims to have a proof that Rubicon is TC.
23:15:18 <oklopol> wp says chess's extensions to an infinite grid are exponential time, but not tc
23:15:27 <augur> oklopol: true!
23:15:28 <ehird_> augur: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa.
23:15:37 <cpressey> Yeah, I've also seen Minesweeper called TC, but I'm suspicious
23:15:39 <ehird_> augur: And I'm not joking, or doing some emo shit when I say fucked up.
23:16:02 <oklopol> exponential time to do something, i have no idea how exactly these extensions work, probably pretty much anything gives the same results
23:16:11 <cpressey> Obviously AsciiPortal and Robozzle
23:16:40 <oklopol> cpressey: no but it was proven NP-complete
23:16:43 <oklopol> pretty simple really
23:16:50 <cpressey> There was something called Winter something or something that was like a video game version of CRobots or something
23:17:00 <MissPiggy> AsciiPortal is TC?
23:17:08 <oerjan> oklopol: exponential time in the size could still mean TC for _infinite_ size
23:17:26 <cpressey> MissPiggy: not sure if it's proven, but suspected at least
23:17:28 <oerjan> i suspect that wp really means unbounded, not infinite
23:17:30 <oklopol> err yes, i guess...
23:17:48 <oklopol> or then it means some sort of extensions to "size n"
23:17:50 <oklopol> i have no idea
23:17:55 <Wareya> you can build nand gates into asciiportal levels
23:18:02 <augur> ehird, wait, so what
23:18:11 <augur> you're being forced to go to some place?
23:18:12 <cpressey> How are you supposed to "execute" chess? Nondeterministically make every possible move?
23:18:16 <augur> why? how did this come about?
23:19:17 <ehird_> augur: I think I answered that in the channel too. let me try and find the log
23:19:29 * augur hugs ehird_ :(
23:19:34 <cpressey> I've often wanted to make a game based on a cross between Befunge and Paradroid, too. That could be TC, it just... doesn't exist.
23:19:35 <augur> well i think you're normal. and pretty cool.
23:19:38 <augur> if a bit girly. ;P
23:20:30 <ehird_> augur: anyway it came about for complicated reasons...
23:20:34 <ehird_> i can't really explain
23:20:40 <zzo38> How can chess be turing complete? I think of [[InfChessPro]] but I don't know if you can assume such things
23:20:50 <zzo38> And I have the same question, how to "execute" chess?
23:20:54 <Sgeo> RoboZZle is TC
23:21:11 <cpressey> Carnage Heart, that's it, not Winter anything
23:21:38 <zzo38> Sgeo: I can believe that, it has stacks and also sometimes command for change color of a square, too.
23:21:55 <Sgeo> Langton's Ant was implemented in it
23:22:00 <Sgeo> That means it's TC, I think?
23:22:05 <ehird_> augur: #esoteric-priv if you want to discuss it...
23:22:31 <Wareya> sorry if I sound snoopy, but I just want to listen
23:22:47 <ehird_> That's okay. Just don't tell anyone else...
23:22:58 <Wareya> no problem
23:23:06 <ehird_> It's public enough to anyone in here given the pastie link.
23:25:55 <zzo38> Please show me how Langton's Ant is implemented in it?
23:26:10 <oklopol> are you serious?
23:26:14 <MissPiggy> zzo38, I think it's pretty trivial
23:26:18 <oerjan> a pretty obvious way to ask whether a game like chess is TC is "what is the result (white/black wins, tie) from a given position with perfect play by both players?"
23:26:22 <MissPiggy> since it has got a paint command
23:26:22 <oklopol> hence "are you serious"
23:26:27 <MissPiggy> so you just do the obvious thing
23:27:07 <oerjan> then you need to encode your computation into the initial position.
23:27:07 <oklopol> yeah, basically there are commands that exactly correspond to the rules of the ant.
23:27:15 * MissPiggy doesn't think you can encode arbitrary diophantine equations in chess
23:27:26 <cpressey> oerjan: I think that's equivalent to what I said? Nondeterministically make every possible move.
23:27:29 <pikhq> oerjan: Chess halts given perfect play.
23:27:35 <MissPiggy> zzo38 did that actually help at all?
23:27:35 <Wareya> How do you "execute" chess?
23:27:43 <pikhq> Actually, even without perfect play, it must halt.
23:27:58 <MissPiggy> pikhq what if you have infinite peices
23:28:26 <oerjan> pikhq: we are naturally assuming an infinite extension here
23:28:27 <ehird_> pikhq: how come
23:28:31 <ehird_> move forwards and backwards forever
23:28:33 <Sgeo> I'd sell a finite amount on eBay at regular intervals
23:28:34 <coppro> 50 move rule
23:28:36 <ehird_> eh there's probably some dumb-ass limit rule
23:28:39 <pikhq> ehird_: 50 move rule.
23:28:39 <zzo38> Chess will always halt if you use 50 move rule
23:28:39 <ehird_> coppro: ding
23:28:50 <coppro> if you have infinite pieces and infinite space, though, you're fine
23:28:54 <cpressey> :(
23:28:57 <coppro> because the 50 moves reset every time a pawn moves
23:29:03 <coppro> so a pawn could keep moving forever
23:29:04 <pikhq> Also, given perfect play, such an instance will never happen.
23:29:18 <coppro> threefold repetition wouldn't happen in perfect play
23:29:27 <cpressey> Right, let's extend to an infinite chessboard -- but don't drop the 50 move rule! :)
23:29:34 <coppro> :P
23:29:46 <coppro> Let's also include every variant piece!
23:30:22 <pikhq> Also, I'm pretty sure an infinite chessboard would make it easy to guarantee checkmate.
23:30:42 <oklopol> even without the 50 rule, the game only has a finite amount of positions, and therefore doesn't allow any computation.
23:31:14 <pikhq> And since perfect play aims for checkmate...
23:31:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:31:36 <zzo38> Yes, that is true of course, there is only a finite amount of positions, which is what I was thinking of at first
23:32:16 <zzo38> It is possible some variants might be different, though
23:33:40 <cpressey> I think you need an unbounded sized board just to say you can handle "input" of arbitrary sizes.
23:34:06 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!).
23:34:36 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:34:56 <oklopol> you need an unbounded board just to have computation in the mathematical sense.
23:35:27 -!- coppro has joined.
23:35:41 <zzo38> Yes, I think you would, but there are variants with unbounded boards.
23:35:47 <oklopol> if the system only allows for a finite amount of initial positions, it is algorithmically trivial to solve absolutely any question about it.
23:36:23 <oklopol> if (board looks like this) { ... } else if (board looks like that) { ... } etc
23:37:59 <cpressey> oklopol: I catch your meaning, but I wonder if I can't come up with a counterexample that exploits your choice of words...
23:38:15 <coppro> ehird_: Before I go, I'd like to run an idea by you; would you be interested in a program that would provide for a tiled display of ASCII source?
23:39:12 <oklopol> cpressey: impossible!
23:39:47 <AnMaster> ehird_, hi!
23:39:58 <AnMaster> ehird_, what kept you away before?
23:40:01 <AnMaster> welcome back
23:40:15 <cpressey> oklopol: Say I have a 2-symbol UTM, and I say that you can feed it any of the first 600 billion billion prime numbers to it, in binary. Then I ask you to tell me which of those cause the UTM to halt, and which cause it to loop forever.
23:40:22 <coppro> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa
23:40:49 <cpressey> The system has a finite amount of initial positions...
23:41:04 <oklopol> ah but that *is* algorithmically trivial
23:41:28 <oklopol> for each of those numbers, it either stops or not
23:41:38 <oklopol> and there's a finite amount of them.
23:41:47 -!- ehird_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:42:13 <cpressey> It would be trivial to represent the algorithm, yes, but not to discover the correct one. I guess you meant the former.
23:42:45 <AnMaster> coppro, hrrm
23:43:19 * Sgeo doesn't see a Scroll Lock button on this keyboard
23:43:32 <oklopol> cpressey: just going by the rigorous definition of "algorithmically trivial"
23:43:39 -!- ehird has joined.
23:43:49 <oklopol> wb
23:45:20 <AnMaster> ehird, wv!
23:45:21 <AnMaster> wb*
23:45:27 -!- AnMaster has set topic: RIP sun.com | 0 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:45:43 <cpressey> oklopol: and an interesting definition of "solve" :)
23:46:14 <cpressey> clearly not "answer correctly"
23:46:15 <oklopol> how is it not a solution if you can write a O(1) algo for it? ;)
23:47:34 <oklopol> the algo is clearly O(1) (hidden constant 600 billion billion)
23:48:05 <AnMaster> cpressey, oklopol: what are you trying to solve?
23:48:09 <zzo38> http://chessvariants.org/shape.dir/infiniteboard.html
23:48:27 <oklopol> nothing really
23:49:00 <cpressey> Well, I've solved the P=?NP problem, then. It is either yes or no.
23:49:01 <Sgeo> It depends on what the meaning of "trying" is
23:49:30 <oklopol> the P?=NP problem is algorithmically trivial, yes
23:49:51 <cpressey> And thus it is solved.
23:49:52 <oklopol> this is the first thing you hear in a course about computability
23:50:02 <oklopol> oh okay i see what you mean
23:50:37 <oklopol> hmm
23:50:46 <AnMaster> cpressey: I assume not for any useful values of solved
23:50:59 <zzo38> I have also read about chess variants where the number of rows is 2 times omega and that the number of columns is very infinite
23:51:09 <cpressey> I think there's maybe a linguistic issue about "solve" versus "has a solution"?
23:51:19 <oklopol> okay i don't think i've said anything incorrect
23:51:44 <oklopol> algorithmically trivial to solve != possible to solve
23:51:59 <ehird> AnMaster: ah, you have recently returned?
23:52:08 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa
23:52:21 <AnMaster> ehird, someone else (coppero?) linked it above
23:52:24 <AnMaster> so read it
23:52:24 <ehird> Okay.
23:52:28 <AnMaster> ehird, poor you
23:52:45 <ehird> Poor me.
23:52:45 <AnMaster> ehird, also: emigrate to somewhere saner
23:52:55 <zzo38> I have heard of ideas for chess variants where white pieces go forward in time, and black pieces go backward in time. Maybe we can even make a esolang with similar ideas?
23:52:56 <ehird> My plan.
23:52:57 <cpressey> oklopol: OK, maybe.
23:52:57 <augur> linguistics!? :o
23:53:00 <ehird> Sweden or Norway, most likely.
23:53:13 <ehird> Well, our plan; my parents' too.
23:53:17 <AnMaster> ehird, Sweden is shit nowdays. Norway is expensive to live in
23:53:25 <AnMaster> well, Sweden isn't as bad as UK
23:53:27 <AnMaster> but still
23:53:32 <ehird> How's Sweden shit? You may have an incredibly skewed view; you guys voted for the pirate party
23:53:35 <oklopol> cpressey: just a matter of definitions, i love nothing more than to use a completely counterintuitive definition as counterintuitively as possible.
23:53:42 <AnMaster> ehird, FRA, IPRED
23:53:46 <AnMaster> to mention two things
23:53:51 <oklopol> well okay i love many things
23:54:07 <ehird> AnMaster: the whole world is going that way
23:54:13 <ehird> well
23:54:16 <ehird> fra, okay, sure, that's bad
23:54:24 <ehird> but sweden doesn't have internet censorship right? finland does
23:54:27 <FireFly> Nighty
23:54:32 <ehird> norway is expensive sure but surely not that much more expensive than sweden
23:54:36 <ehird> the three counrties are really similar right?
23:54:40 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:55:01 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc there is/was some sort of non-enforced recommendation of child porn sites that isp could blacklist
23:55:03 <AnMaster> or such
23:55:06 <AnMaster> vague memory
23:55:26 <AnMaster> ehird, also what about Bolivia? It might be saner
23:55:57 <oerjan> O_o
23:56:10 <ehird> I think it is what AnMaster would call a joke.
23:56:17 <oerjan> ah.
23:56:36 <AnMaster> ehird, no
23:56:38 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, there was.
23:56:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: Do note that that's one of the things the Piratbyran opposed.
23:57:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes, but this all goes at EU level nowdays
23:57:19 <pikhq> And that the other political parties adopted as part of their platform in response.
23:57:19 <oklopol> scandinavia is one big happy family really
23:57:22 <AnMaster> there is basically no choice at any lower level for such things
23:57:38 <pikhq> ... Things inside of Sweden are at EU level?
23:57:41 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:57:46 <pikhq> Not just EU laws?
23:57:48 <ehird> I can't knock the EU if it's going to be saving my ass with free immigration.
23:57:58 <pikhq> :P
23:58:34 <coppro> ehird: did you see my idea?
23:58:35 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Not just EU laws? <-- I referred to EU laws
23:58:36 <AnMaster> as in
23:58:48 <AnMaster> FRA and IPRED are required laws by EU
23:58:49 <ehird> coppro: which?
23:58:49 <pikhq> ehird: More like "near-citizenship".
23:58:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: Ah.
23:58:57 <ehird> not fra surely
23:59:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, as in, the country has to implement something like it
23:59:06 <ehird> i don't think the eu would condone warrantless wiretapping much less require it
23:59:06 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure yes
23:59:10 <AnMaster> well
23:59:14 <AnMaster> something very close
23:59:24 <AnMaster> Sweden went way further though iirc
23:59:38 <coppro> ehird: I'm thinking of writing a program to tilize text; it would have nice features like the ability to run on updating text (e.g. a cellular automaton) and maybe even have an editor
00:00:21 <ehird> i actually felt a brain context switch there, to programming mode
00:00:30 <ehird> sorry i'm thick right now, tilize?
00:00:43 <coppro> I just made the word up :)
00:00:50 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:00:53 <Wareya> make tiled? :P
00:00:55 <coppro> I mean to take a text "image" and render it with graphical images
00:01:09 <coppro> like produce a graphical version of a Befunge program or something
00:01:26 <ehird> okay
00:01:41 <AnMaster> coppro, like showing code flow paths in colours?
00:02:53 <MissPiggy> <ehird> i actually felt a brain cell switch there, to programming mode
00:02:57 <MissPiggy> all one of them?
00:03:11 <ehird> umm context switch
00:03:12 <ehird> not cell switch
00:03:22 <ehird> but yeah, just one cell is all my programming magic
00:03:23 <ehird> it's
00:03:24 <ehird> quantum
00:03:25 <MissPiggy> that's how /I/ read (the first time)
00:03:26 <coppro> AnMaster: no
00:03:30 <MissPiggy> it.s....... quantum!
00:03:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Is Dungeons&Dragons turing complete? Actually, that isn't even a valid question).
00:03:42 <MissPiggy> lili
00:03:45 <coppro> the basic version would just take a text and replace each character with an image
00:04:36 <ehird> i think i'm obligated to inject some ehird into the discussion
00:04:49 <coppro> that was the plan; we haven't had enough ehird lately
00:04:57 <ehird> <some statement about being apple-fanboy-forced into buying the ipad><criticise it rampantly><says that i still love it>
00:05:08 <AnMaster> <coppro> the basic version would just take a text and replace each character with an image <-- bitmap font rendering?
00:05:08 <ehird> that's my quota
00:05:31 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? so you love the ipad?
00:05:38 <cpressey> I gotta say, I love it when unit tests fail when you substitute a class with a subclass of it which *overrides nothing in it*
00:05:48 <ehird> I hate it and want it to be my wife!
00:06:02 <cpressey> Anyway, I gotta go. Later folks.
00:06:03 <coppro> AnMaster: that would be the basic principle, yeah
00:06:03 <cpressey> Good luck ehird :)
00:06:07 <ehird> cpressey: Thank you.
00:06:10 <AnMaster> ehird, hard to decide on it?
00:06:12 -!- cpressey has left (?).
00:06:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Regular teenagers think they have issues with deciding on their sexuality. They should try being freedom-lovin' Apple fanboys.
00:06:38 <AnMaster> coppro, wow what a great new invention! rendering text to a graphical image. Rather than sending it to a vt100 terminal unit
00:06:53 <coppro> It's not new
00:06:54 <AnMaster> you mean, actually render in *software*?
00:07:01 <AnMaster> coppro, I was being sarcastic
00:07:02 <AnMaster> ...
00:07:03 <ehird> umm i'm required to inject some display nerdery into this subtopic
00:07:06 <ehird> guys, it has an IPS screen
00:07:12 <ehird> and it's so thin and light and handheld. IPS!
00:07:14 <ehird> ok
00:07:18 <ehird> back to more depressing things
00:07:31 * coppro knows of sexual troubles!
00:07:32 <AnMaster> ehird, but it is too large to fit into a pocket
00:07:38 <AnMaster> well
00:07:40 <ehird> so's your mom
00:07:45 <ehird> coppro: you and everyone else
00:07:50 <ehird> join the club
00:07:55 <ehird> receive t-shirt, etc.
00:08:00 <AnMaster> unless you want: "is that an ipad in your pocket, or are you just extremely happy to see me?"
00:08:06 <coppro> I've been a member for a long while now
00:08:07 <Wareya> lol
00:08:14 <AnMaster> but that would be, um, ridiculous
00:08:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:08:22 <coppro> pretty sure I'm in a special division though
00:08:38 <Wareya> Thta's a reason I wear cargo pants
00:08:54 <ehird> wait it costs $499? why don't i have one already
00:08:58 <ehird> apart from it not being released and stuff
00:09:03 <AnMaster> hah
00:09:13 <ehird> i was expecting like, $799
00:12:12 <oerjan> could be a misprint.
00:12:29 <coppro> given that it's just a big iPhone, I'd say it's not a misprint
00:13:14 -!- SimonRC has joined.
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00:14:55 <AnMaster> ehird, but what use case does ipad fill
00:15:37 <ehird> the "i am sitting on a bench and I want to read the new york times and check my email" case for one
00:15:59 <Wareya> it has better video hardware
00:16:22 <ehird> i'm not sure how useful the ported office suite will be though
00:16:25 <ehird> with that keyboard
00:17:18 <coppro> the plug-in one?
00:17:49 <ehird> the onscreen one
00:17:51 <AnMaster> ehird, hm
00:18:15 <coppro> yeah, I don't expect that to be useful
00:18:18 <ehird> it runs a subset of iphone apps too so it's a big games console
00:18:25 <ehird> and fart sound maker
00:18:31 <coppro> too big to thumb-type, and practically impossible to touch-type
00:19:19 <ehird> i dunno, touch-typing could be practical
00:19:27 <ehird> with the error-correction
00:19:27 <coppro> I can't see it really being
00:19:33 <ehird> i can almost do it on an iphone, it's just too small
00:19:57 <coppro> because touch-typing sucks on a keyboard with no force feedback, and the angle is awkward because you have to type and view on the same surface
00:20:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> it runs a subset of iphone apps too so it's a big games console <-- not full OS X apps?!
00:20:34 <AnMaster> what the crap
00:20:38 <ehird> AnMaster: >_<
00:20:42 <Wareya> American laptops: Full sized keyboard! Bigger keys instead of a full layout! Yay!
00:20:48 <coppro> AnMaster: I said it's a big iPhone. I wasn't kidding.
00:20:54 <AnMaster> coppro, ...
00:20:57 <ehird> AnMaster: and i said i wouldn't argue with you this weekend
00:20:58 <AnMaster> that stupid...
00:21:04 <ehird> i lied
00:21:04 <Wareya> it has better video hardware
00:21:20 <AnMaster> I'm just shocked at this vendor lockin
00:21:31 <AnMaster> <Wareya> American laptops: Full sized keyboard! Bigger keys instead of a full layout! Yay! <-- hm?
00:21:31 * ehird grabs the popcorn
00:21:34 <ehird> We're playing Vendor Lockin!
00:21:36 <AnMaster> you mean, like most laptops?
00:21:41 <ehird> The game where AnMaster calls EVERYTHING vendor lockin!
00:21:43 <AnMaster> Wareya, having full sized main area?
00:21:47 <ehird> 24/7/365!
00:21:48 <Wareya> huh?
00:21:49 <ehird> Don't miss it!
00:22:05 <Wareya> No, the whole thing's width is that of a standard IBM-style keyboard
00:22:12 <Wareya> seriously full sized
00:22:34 <Wareya> but it's just an enlarged version of a normal laptop keyboard
00:22:38 <AnMaster> Wareya, well my lenovo thinkpad has qwerty minus numeric keypad. the main (letter) area have keys the same size as a full sized pc keyboard
00:22:53 <Wareya> yes
00:22:57 <AnMaster> some side keys are smaller, such as the F-keys
00:23:02 <Wareya> it's as big as a full keyboard
00:23:04 <AnMaster> and alt/ctrl/win
00:23:16 <Wareya> but it has no numpad and the arrows are squashed under shift and enter
00:23:18 <AnMaster> and the arrow keys are smaller and moved
00:23:25 <AnMaster> Wareya, yes?
00:23:26 <AnMaster> indeed
00:23:33 <AnMaster> seems like a sane solution for a laptop
00:23:37 <AnMaster> easy to adopt to
00:23:38 <Wareya> And it's the same size as a normal IBM-style desktop keyboard
00:23:45 <AnMaster> hm?
00:23:46 <Wareya> yet it uses a laptop layout
00:23:52 <AnMaster> Wareya, no mine isn't
00:23:55 <Wareya> mine is
00:23:58 <AnMaster> due to the lack for a keypad on the side
00:23:58 <Wareya> I'm saying
00:24:02 <AnMaster> it's a 15" laptop
00:24:09 <AnMaster> so you couldn't fit keypad there
00:24:14 <AnMaster> with full sized main key
00:24:18 <AnMaster> main keys*
00:24:28 <AnMaster> Wareya, still it makes it easy to switch between laptop and desktop
00:24:30 <Wareya> If can fit an IBM desktop keyboard on top of this laptop's keyboard
00:24:32 <AnMaster> same key sizes for most keys
00:24:42 <Wareya> the keys are enlarged, but it has a laptop layout
00:24:50 <Wareya> I mean
00:25:10 <AnMaster> well with the numeric keypad the desktop keyboard is wider than my laptop
00:25:16 <AnMaster> well,*
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00:25:32 <Wareya> for me they're the same
00:25:54 <Wareya> Instead of taking advantage of the space for a full kayboard layout, they squeezed in an engarged laptop layout.
00:25:56 <AnMaster> Wareya, is that a 17" laptop?
00:26:12 <Wareya> I don't know measurements very well
00:26:29 <AnMaster> Wareya, becuase having the same *key size* for the letter keys is useful
00:26:33 <AnMaster> when you switch a lot
00:26:37 <AnMaster> it avoids a LOT of annoyance
00:26:42 <AnMaster> due to missed keys and such
00:26:47 <Wareya> -all- of this laptop's kays are super sized
00:26:48 <Wareya> it's retarded
00:26:55 <ehird> Who is Wareya?
00:26:57 <Wareya> super sized from an IBM keyboard's size
00:26:57 <ehird> Is he new?
00:27:00 <Wareya> relatively
00:27:04 <ehird> Joined?
00:27:10 <Wareya> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Wareya
00:27:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you know ais -> scarf btw?
00:27:33 <ehird> yes, is that permanent? I doubt it
00:27:42 <AnMaster> ehird, seems fairly permanent so far
00:27:47 <AnMaster> as in, lasted several days
00:28:08 <ehird> i'm gonna move to a country where i have to wear ais523 around my neck
00:28:17 <AnMaster> eh?
00:28:26 <Wareya> cold country?
00:28:32 * Sgeo watches the joke woosh above AnMaster's head
00:28:43 <Sgeo> Oh, or maybe it didn't
00:29:36 <AnMaster> Sgeo, indeed, it is controlled airspace there
00:31:06 <ehird> yes, otherwise all the jokes would crash together
00:31:15 <ehird> and form some sort of horrible mutant joke of all of them combined
00:31:19 <ehird> which you would then laugh at
00:31:23 <Wareya> like that one?
00:31:39 <AnMaster> hehehe
00:33:39 <ehird> so anyone want to come to norway with me and found an operating systems and programming languages research company
00:33:52 <MissPiggy> that sounds cool
00:33:54 <MissPiggy> I want to do that
00:34:28 <oerjan> joke sothoth
00:34:30 <ehird> so do i :P
00:34:39 <MissPiggy> sothoth
00:34:42 <ehird> the only problem is figuring out a way to be profitable!
00:34:44 <MissPiggy> freaking
00:34:49 <MissPiggy> I have to freaking read goddam
00:34:54 <MissPiggy> H P Lovecraft
00:35:01 <MissPiggy> is there a good version with lots of pictures??
00:35:06 <ehird> apart from that, you know, big space with lots of computers networked together... you can come into work if you want, some sort of money will probably change hands at some point
00:35:07 <AnMaster> XD
00:35:08 <ehird> chill
00:36:47 <ehird>
00:38:05 <AnMaster> night ↓
00:38:15 <Sgeo> I'm not going to sleep now!
00:38:22 <ehird> AnMaster: you're on top of sgeo
00:38:33 <ehird> congratulations, you managed to turn #esoteric to the awkwardly homoerotic once more.
00:39:46 <Sgeo> Esolangers are the only ones in that strange channel right niow
00:40:46 <ehird> Which strange channel?
00:41:20 <Sgeo> The tullinge one
00:41:33 <ehird> It's just a channel for some area of Sweden.
00:41:54 <oklopol> best area there is
00:42:17 <oerjan> "tulling" means fool in norwegian. just saying.
00:43:00 <Wareya> tulling - turring, just saw that
00:44:16 <oerjan> "turring" means fool in norwegian with a ridiculous japanese accent. just saying.
00:44:26 <ehird> Luftputefartøyet mitt er fullt av ål
00:44:27 <ehird> Min svävare är full med ål
00:44:35 <ehird> Ilmatyynyalukseni on täynnä ankeriaita
00:44:38 <ehird> norweigan, swedish, finnish
00:44:39 <ehird> who wins
00:45:38 <oerjan> swedish; it has three funny accents, the others just two
00:45:59 <Wareya> haha
00:46:20 <ehird> swedish is not... rounded enough
00:46:23 <ehird> it's too... tall
00:46:31 <ehird> you can't imagine a pleasant gentleman speaking swedish
00:47:13 <oerjan> indeed. like elves, really.
00:47:32 <Gregor> Good day gentlemen, bork bork bork.
00:47:52 <Wareya> which elves?
00:48:07 <oerjan> the tall, arrogant obnoxious ones.
00:48:08 <Wareya> High fantasy elves or childhood fantasy elves?
00:48:11 <Wareya> okay
00:48:18 <oklopol> i welcome you to the pleasantness of the current moment.
00:48:30 <Wareya> I'm getting jumk food
00:48:34 <Wareya> junk*
00:48:37 <oklopol> i wish i had junk food
00:48:56 <Wareya> I'm walking to a store half a mile a way for...
00:49:05 <Wareya> a single bag of doritos, and a 2-liter of whatever
00:49:09 <Wareya> later
00:49:13 <oklopol> later
00:49:20 <ehird> someone hug me
00:49:22 <ehird> !
00:49:23 <oklopol> no idea what doritos are, but they must be awesome
00:49:34 * MissPiggy hugs ehird
00:49:41 <ehird> yay
00:49:45 <ehird> doritos are corn crisp things
00:49:52 <Wareya> they're overprocessed, brand-name corn chips with cheese and spicing
00:49:54 <ehird> you dip them in things
00:50:04 <oklopol> hugging guys is weird
00:50:09 <Wareya> I know too much about junk foor for a 130 lb teenager
00:50:23 * oklopol hugs still
00:50:24 <Wareya> food*
00:50:35 <oerjan> Wareya: http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20091101
00:50:53 <Wareya> I'll read it when I get back
00:51:09 <ehird> 14, 74 lbs representin'
00:51:15 <ehird> i am light. light as a feather
00:51:21 <ehird> also really short.
00:51:33 <ehird> in fact my interior is 99% air.
00:51:39 <ehird> 0.99% helium
00:51:45 <oklopol> i'm like two and a half yous
00:51:52 <oklopol> well not exactly
00:52:26 <oerjan> ehird: maybe you could escape the uk in balloon form
00:52:50 <ehird> i'd get a squeaky voice *and* escape
00:52:51 <ehird> sounds good
00:53:14 <oklopol> it's like two horses with one giant hammer
00:53:18 <oerjan> better not fart while over the north sea, though
00:54:09 <oklopol> oh dear, second fart joke
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00:55:06 <oerjan> wait, there was another one?
00:55:30 <oklopol> i started doing this thing today where i do the french r thingie without voicing
00:55:39 <oklopol> makes breathing more fun
00:55:40 <oklopol> err
00:55:52 <oklopol> yes, you were like "...oh dear did i make fart joke"
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00:56:07 <oerjan> that's essentially the german ch, isn't it
00:56:35 <oklopol> i don't think it's supposed to roll that much
00:56:44 <oerjan> acch so
00:56:56 <oklopol> at least it rolls less audibly
00:57:00 <oklopol> i basically snore
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00:57:17 <oklopol> like a helicopter
00:57:35 <oerjan> and everyone knows it's very bad for helicopters to snore
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01:05:50 <ehird> Hi, SimonRC.
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01:09:29 <Wareya> alright
01:11:28 <Wareya> that's pretty funny
01:13:54 <oerjan> just found that "old" comic... i've been reading other comics on foglio's site for ages without realizing "What's new" _wasn't_ a link to the news section
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01:14:17 <Wareya> My experience on the internet is like blurry tunnelvision
01:14:23 <oerjan> or so i assume, since i hadn't noticed it before
01:14:30 <Wareya> so I don't know this guy
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01:15:49 <oerjan> well the newer comic Girl Genius has won a good number of awards
01:18:12 <Wareya> I find it funny how it just loosely compared good/evil to roder and chaos
01:18:19 <Wareya> http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20091115
01:18:32 <ehird> Well, entropy is the greatest evil in the universe.
01:19:12 <Wareya> In my opinion, order/chaos and good/evil are utterly seperate scales
01:19:44 <oerjan> well duh but isn't what that comic _says_
01:20:11 <Wareya> It sounds like it's listing new names for the same things, to me.
01:20:21 <Wareya> Maybe because of my dialect, eh
01:20:39 <oerjan> and in d&d good/evil and law/chaos are the two fundamental axes
01:20:56 <Wareya> yeah
01:23:16 <oerjan> also i would say it's because we're all culturally impressed with associating good with light and law
01:23:34 <oerjan> even if we may not always agree consciously
01:23:51 <Wareya> On a really fundamental level, I guess you're right
01:24:16 <Wareya> but I do feel like that good and light are the same thing anyway, so
01:24:22 <oerjan> er, s/law/order/, or both
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01:24:54 <oerjan> while the bat people are likely to disagree vehemently ;D
01:25:02 <Wareya> heh
01:32:35 <oklopol> i don't really see any connection between good and light
01:33:08 <MissPiggy> maybe you have been educated evil?
01:33:21 <MissPiggy> and do not understand the four simultaneous days?
01:33:30 <oklopol> ;)
01:33:46 <oklopol> i like being in the dark, dunno why
01:33:52 <Wareya> I've played plenty of jrpgs
01:34:02 <Wareya> I think that's where good=light and evil=darkness came from
01:34:06 <Wareya> for me
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02:01:03 <oklopol> good night everybody, may i find dreams in my sleep.
02:01:03 <oklopol> ->
02:01:27 <ehird> Sleep, perchance to quark.
02:02:34 <Sgeo> "To sleep in Springfield, perchance to dream of being someplace else"
02:03:02 * Sgeo sees no relevent hits on Google, and points to some Simpsons book
02:05:04 <pikhq> Freaking snowstorm.
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02:13:22 <olsner> hmm, someone pinged me >7h ago
02:13:59 <Sgeo> olsner, might have been me
02:14:08 <Sgeo> I mentioned the language you were making
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02:14:55 <olsner> Sgeo: sweet, what were you saying?
02:15:06 <Sgeo> I was asking what happened with it, I think
02:15:10 <Sgeo> It should all be in the logs
02:15:18 <olsner> meh, logs, bah
02:16:08 <olsner> well, it's being developed, and I have an experimental implementation that should be reworked slightly to make it TC
02:16:16 <ehird> Sgeo: should i ensadden olsner too, or am i not that evil
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02:16:31 <olsner> and I may still decide to rebuild the middle-part of it
02:17:04 <Sgeo> ehird, *shrug* it's your life, your decision
02:17:05 <olsner> ehird: oh, ensadden me as early as possible so that I may not be worsely ensaddened in further future
02:17:17 <Sgeo> *life story
02:17:44 <olsner> ehird about to die or something?
02:18:03 <ehird> Heh, no.
02:18:22 <ehird> I know at least one thing and it's that I'm not that bad off.
02:18:55 <ehird> If I was about to die, I couldn't be talking lightly about ensaddening people on IRC. I'm utterly terrified of death.
02:18:58 <ehird> Anyway, http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa
02:19:13 <ehird> (For perspective, since I'm not sure if you know or not, I'm 14.)
02:23:30 <olsner> yah, knew you're young... your situation sounds weird and harsh, but it's how I've always suspected "mental care" works pretty much everywhere
02:23:48 <ehird> I think it's definitely better in some places.
02:23:48 <olsner> after all, it's pretty much impossible to differentiate sane persons and insane persons claiming to be sane
02:23:58 <ehird> thud.
02:24:04 <ehird> ...or vice versa.
02:24:35 <ehird> olsner: I would be less ... whatever emotion I am about this whole situation if they were making steps to treat what they brand me with, instead of a bullshit "malnutrition"
02:24:39 <olsner> claiming to be insane? that's a sign of sanity if there ever was one :P
02:24:41 <ehird> But they're not
02:30:00 <olsner> I think these systems are (with good intentions) built to prevent either you or your parents from bailing you out
02:31:41 <ehird> Yes. But I cannot forgive the people involved.
02:31:51 <ehird> They still did these things unthinkingly.
02:33:59 <Sgeo> If they're claiming "malnutrition", they can't find a way to make sure you eat without detaining you in a place?
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02:35:40 <ehird> They're not making sure I eat they're just giving me a drink that's woefully inappropriate; 2 x 1390 kcal + whatever else I eat in the day = one over-caloried puppy, and it's designed for people with disease-related malnutrition who *cannot* get the required amount of energy from food. And I'm not malnutritioned, I eat alright, maybe a bit less than usual. I'm just very thin, just as my father was.
02:35:51 <ehird> Runs in the family, we're both perfectly healthy, no story there.
02:36:07 <ehird> But, you know, if the junk science of BMI says I'm overweight, well howdy-doody, to hell with the facts
02:36:23 <Sgeo> I think that I could use that drink
02:36:47 <Sgeo> Even though technically I can get the required amount of energy from food, I tend not to
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02:37:30 * Sgeo tends not to eat properly
02:37:43 <Sgeo> I think that it would make sense for me to be in your position, tbh
02:38:22 <olsner> I suppose detaining and force-feeding is what they will ultimately resort to to make you eat, after trying various other things, if they still think you're malnutritioned
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02:46:14 <ehird> Sgeo: no, believe me it wouldn't
02:46:18 <ehird> nobody would be helped by my position
02:46:29 <ehird> btw nutrition science is bullshit, ask Ilari if you have a lot of time :p
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02:46:45 <ehird> olsner: there's an anorexic girl there, 13, celebrity-obsessed, refuses to eat or drink. they just have her on a feeding tube.
02:46:56 <Sgeo> ehird, my physical body, if not my mind, might be helped
02:47:00 <Sgeo> I seriously don't eat enough
02:47:05 <ehird> they don't seem to especially care about actually fixing things, just temporary "fixes"
02:47:16 <ehird> Sgeo: maybe you just eat the wrong things. But seriously, nutrition science is crap.
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04:28:31 <pikhq> Internet? Work?
04:28:31 <pikhq> Please?
04:33:15 <uorygl> Neat, I started a debate: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=55981
04:35:14 * Sgeo likes the taste of pina colada on his lips
04:35:27 <pikhq> Neat, I've got Internet.
04:35:43 <uorygl> "Suppose I have a ball on a hill. The ball is tolling directly up toward the top of the hill, such that its total energy is equal to what it would be if it were at rest at the top of the hill. So, it has enough energy to get to the top, but does it actually do so in a finite amount of time?"
04:36:40 <pikhq> uorygl: No. It approaches the top asymptotically.
04:37:42 <Sgeo> That's one side of the debate
04:39:44 <pikhq> Though I'm pretty sure it depends upon the geometry of the hill...
04:40:25 <pikhq> God dammit xkcd forums.
04:40:44 <pikhq> It appears to be making Conkeror ignore all input on that window.
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04:41:05 <uorygl> I'm pretty sure the infinitists are right.
04:41:23 <Sgeo> I think if chapstick had some kind of toxin that was only dangerous if a lot of chapstick was needlessly used, I'd be dead now
04:42:21 <pikhq> uorygl: I'm pretty sure there's a limit in there, so yeah...
04:43:24 <ehird> I hate chapstick.
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04:44:18 * Sgeo loves it
04:44:21 * Sgeo loves the taste
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07:33:37 <Sgeo> ehird: If you see this, remind me that I have to tell you something
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10:37:48 <Gracenotes> uh. super.
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10:42:04 <oklopol> "if there is a finite distance along the flat to the edge from the balls initial starting place, then i think you are right, an infinitely small push would take an infinite amount of time to even reach the edge, so the exact nature of the slope and the starting position may make a difference here" god these guys are retarded
10:42:36 <oklopol> also this is a slightly old conversation i'm reading, i notice
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11:53:12 <AnMaster> why do I feel like writing my own irc client suddenly
11:54:42 <verangirl> hello
11:57:13 <AnMaster> hi
11:58:50 <verangirl> are you identi.ca user?
11:59:13 <AnMaster> no idea what that site is
11:59:55 <verangirl> is the free as in freedom twitter
12:00:36 <verangirl> look: http://identi.ca/group/conspiracy
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12:01:05 <AnMaster> verangirl, mhm, you know this channel is about esoteric programming languages right? Not about esoterica.
12:01:20 <AnMaster> Sometimes people mistake this channel for the other thing
12:02:29 <verangirl> hum, ok
12:03:42 <AnMaster> esoteric programming languages being intentionally unusual, weird or silly languages. Often (but not always) designed to be hard to program in.
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12:07:03 <verangirl> than see you
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12:19:01 <Sgeo> Bwuh? Why did Chrome spontaneously decide to reload a bunch of tabs?
12:19:11 <Sgeo> Also, this channel isn't about esoterica? Crud. See you
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12:20:41 <Pthing> i wonder if there actually is a channel for magick weenies
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13:07:41 <ehird> 04:20:41 <Pthing> i wonder if there actually is a channel for magick weenies
13:07:42 <ehird> ##php
13:07:52 <Pthing> hilarity
13:07:57 <ehird> oblivious to how things work, merely trading magic incantations that appear, on the surface, to do what they desire
13:08:42 <ehird> also 23:33:37 <Sgeo> ehird: If you see this, remind me that I have to tell you something
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13:37:11 <ehird> "My own vote is clear: yes to both. Equality is reflexive (every value is equal to itself, at any longitude and temperature, no excuses and no exceptions); and the purpose of assignment is to make the value of the target equal to the value of the source. Such properties are some of the last ramparts of civilization. If they go away, what else is left?" --Bertrant Meyer
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13:42:32 <ehird> hi MissPiggy.
13:42:42 <MissPiggy> hey
13:43:39 <ehird> MissPiggy: agda question - it's tc but total, right? how does it handle that; that partiality monad?
13:44:28 <MissPiggy> well it is total
13:44:41 <ehird> is it not tc, then?
13:45:12 <MissPiggy> but you can express every partial function N -> N using a data type
13:45:22 <AnMaster> ehird, interesting, but what is the context?
13:45:24 <MissPiggy> or you could build a model of lambda calculus using a partiality monad
13:45:30 <ehird> in the language i spent a night babbling about - which has, as these things tend to, mutated wildly since - i'm trying to make it total, but to have partiality very ...
13:45:31 <ehird> thingy
13:45:36 <ehird> easy
13:45:37 <AnMaster> (of that quote above)
13:45:45 <ehird> AnMaster: http://bertrandmeyer.com/2010/02/06/reflexivity-and-other-pillars-of-civilization/
13:45:51 <ehird> (bertrand meyer = creator of Eiffel)
13:45:58 <ehird> hmm i said bertrant before
13:45:59 <ehird> *Bertrand
13:47:05 <MissPiggy> the function space A -> B (or forall a : A, B, or whatever) cannot express every recursive function
13:47:25 <MissPiggy> because -> is total functions (because you want to compute with them in types)
13:47:31 <ehird> right
13:47:33 <ehird> hmm
13:47:43 <MissPiggy> but e.g. A -> Computation B can be a model of lambda calculus
13:47:44 <ehird> expressing it with a data type, how do you mean? I'm curious if it's what I'm thinking of or not
13:47:57 <ehird> right, so a partiality monad
13:48:15 <MissPiggy> well you can define all the primitive recursive stuff and Mu, just as a syntax first
13:48:27 <MissPiggy> then you can give a big step semantics,
13:48:35 <ehird> right right, but what's the actual data type; i mean, it's a total language so is there sort of a backdoor where you can introduce partiality?
13:49:04 <MissPiggy> so you really are talking about the class of recursive functions now, every proof you write with respect to the semantics of that type is a valid statement about them
13:49:36 <ehird> your Computation there is a partiality monad, isn't it?
13:49:53 <ehird> so presumably to make meaningful use of them, given a haskell-style main program solution, you need main :: Partial (IO ())
13:49:54 <MissPiggy> yeah that's just one way
13:50:08 <ehird> otherwise you'd be in total-land, and couldn't invoke the forbidden fruit of the partial lands
13:52:40 <ehird> my lambda syntax is currently λα.β because otherwise function types would get confusing :) (λα. α → ∅) vs (λα → α → ∅)
13:52:54 <ehird> (fuck yeah, unicode; i'm using unicode up the wazoo)
13:53:15 <ehird> admittedly it is rather awkward as I have *not* yet written an editor mode or editor which lets you type \a. a -> () to get that
13:53:18 <MissPiggy> yeah \x -> m is stupid
13:53:51 <ehird> hmm, wait
13:53:55 <ehird> ∅ is Void
13:53:56 <ehird> not ()
13:54:55 <ehird> MissPiggy: come up with a nice unicode name for my () set :P
13:55:07 <MissPiggy> I wouldn't worry about writing partial programs
13:55:37 <MissPiggy> although that is just me ..
13:55:43 <MissPiggy> so maybe not such a valuable statement
13:55:47 <ehird> Well, considering I am planning to use this language as an entire OS, I'm sure I will run into partiality at some point - and the total FP paper certainly did show that some operations are damn awkward with total FP.
13:56:25 <MissPiggy> why do you want to write an OS with it?
13:56:32 <ehird> I dunno. I love the proof system duality and the mathematical soundness of having no ⊥,
13:56:40 <ehird> but I'm not sure totality is practical.
13:56:52 <MissPiggy> hurrump
13:57:08 <ehird> MissPiggy: My goal in computing is to completely revolutionise it. My two separate interests are operating systems and programming languages.
13:57:19 <ehird> It is only natural that my awesome programming language would be my awesome operating system.
13:57:33 <ehird> Note "be", not "be used to write".
13:57:46 <MissPiggy> alright but you're not going to do a full correctness proof of the OS?
13:57:51 <ehird> My OS design involves the programming language being central; a living environment.
13:57:53 <ehird> Think Smalltalk.
13:58:05 <ehird> MissPiggy: Yes, well. :P
13:58:07 <MissPiggy> have you talked to luqui about thsi
13:58:20 <ehird> luqui's blog was a big inspiration
13:58:26 <ehird> but i haven't caught him on irc yet
13:58:53 <ehird> heh I could use ∈ instead of ∷
13:58:55 <ehird> that's ugly though
13:59:12 <MissPiggy> the thing about \in is that it's asymmetric
13:59:34 <MissPiggy> so if you can get two symbols (one for the flipped relation)
13:59:52 * ehird wonders whether his empty type/set should be called ∅ or ⊥
14:00:04 <ehird> ⊥ would be the type theory way; ∅ the set theory way...
14:00:24 <ehird> ∅ seems less confusing; ⊥ is too associated with non-termination and undefinedness in programming
14:00:42 <MissPiggy> in haskell* :P
14:00:42 <ehird> then again, I'd like to be able to use ∅ to denote empty containers in value-land, and that would be doubly confusing
14:00:51 <MissPiggy> nobody else has a clue what it is
14:01:08 <ehird> well, whatever; apart from agda guys, haskellers are the most mathematically civilised programmers :)
14:01:15 <ehird> (and coq etc)
14:02:28 <ehird> The joys of Unicode: /=? Why wouldn't you just write ≢?
14:03:42 <MissPiggy> I was thinking about a language that could compile into almost every high level language
14:03:52 <Sgeo> ehird, see my memo to you
14:03:56 <ehird> ≢ because you have to use ≡ for equality
14:04:01 <ehird> because = is definition
14:04:07 <ehird> MissPiggy: underlambda :P
14:04:42 <ehird> Sgeo: relink the paste in /msg; it may not be so bad
14:04:52 <ehird> I have after all linked to the pastie which tells everything in this channel
14:05:21 <ehird> MissPiggy: can you think of any way to use ≠ for equality and not be inconsistent since = is definition? maybe a better symbol for definition? :P
14:05:31 <MissPiggy> := for definition
14:05:41 <MissPiggy> = for the equality type!
14:05:48 <MissPiggy> then yuo can say x = y and MEAN IT
14:06:06 <ehird> := isn't unicode bitchnizzle
14:06:13 <MissPiggy> there's a unicode one :P
14:06:21 <ehird> FIND IT PEASANT
14:06:52 <MissPiggy>
14:06:57 * ehird considers that |α| instead of abs α may be taking the mathematical notation thing a *bit* too far
14:07:10 <MissPiggy> |a| is a fucking abomination
14:07:13 <ehird> MissPiggy: a more hideous symbol I've not seen! I wonder what font size I'm expected to use to make out "def" there.
14:07:16 <ehird> MissPiggy: yeah agreed
14:07:18 <MissPiggy> |a|b|c|
14:07:19 <ehird> retarded notation
14:07:26 <MissPiggy>
14:07:40 <ehird> maybe that reduction symbol that rconnor likes
14:07:51 <MissPiggy> yeah I'm not keen on the unicode stuff because all the operators are too small (unnecessarily :/)
14:07:54 <ehird> mathematical notation defines too much syntax when functions would do :/
14:08:02 <ehird> MissPiggy: yeah I'm taking care not to use any blots of ink
14:08:14 <ehird> also, _my_ OS will display it perfectly legibly ;)
14:08:18 <MissPiggy> hehe
14:08:27 <ehird> http://r6.ca/blog/20031202T032200Z.html
14:08:36 <ehird> →<sub>β</sub><sup>*</sup>
14:08:41 <ehird> we have our definition symbol.
14:09:08 <fizzie> ||a||₂ for the euclidean norm.
14:09:21 <ehird> I draw the line at superscript numbers for powers
14:09:39 <oklopol> fizzie: yes, the stupid symbol is used for all norms
14:10:05 <ehird> Okay, okay, so any fancy space-age editor, like my OS, will *display* it as superscripts.
14:10:17 <ehird> But in the Unicode representation?
14:10:19 <ehird> Nooooooooooooooooooooooo way
14:11:01 <ehird> (Actually I think my OS will only have to consider code as text for interacting with the outside world. Internally, it's an AST or compiled code; in the UI, it's rendered with fancy things like superscripts.
14:11:05 <ehird> s/$/)/
14:11:22 <fizzie> We have a maths teacher who uses sub- and superscript indices completely interchangeably, often changing them between consecutive lines. Also some sort of "middle-scripts" occasionally.
14:11:42 <MissPiggy> wow lol
14:12:00 * ehird wonders what the best symbol for the exponentation operator is
14:13:39 -!- SimonRC has joined.
14:14:37 <ehird> maybe ↑ due to knuth :)
14:14:47 <MissPiggy> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/axd4m/what_is_the_mathematical_rule_that_says_if_abc/c0jw2vc
14:14:48 <MissPiggy> wut
14:15:18 <ehird> anyone who answers a question starting "What is the mathematical rule" with "common sense" is so idiotic I cannot comphrend it
14:15:44 <MissPiggy> 1+1=2 is common sense!
14:15:54 <ehird> http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/2p2e4.html
14:15:57 <MissPiggy> a^2+b^2=c^2 because duh!!
14:15:57 <ehird> i love metamath
14:16:07 <MissPiggy> yeah it's so 80s
14:16:15 <ehird> howso
14:16:24 <MissPiggy> hey guys I just had a great idea, lets put all our math in the computer!
14:16:34 <ehird> says the agda fan
14:16:47 <MissPiggy> epigram fan
14:16:55 <ehird> why don't you like metamath?
14:17:04 <MissPiggy> I do like it, it's just very funny
14:17:07 <ehird> aight
14:17:11 <ehird> i misinterpreted what you said
14:18:18 <ehird> foo α β = (α ≡ β) ∨ (α ≢ β)
14:18:57 <ehird> ⊕ ∷ Bool → Bool → Bool
14:18:59 <ehird> AND JUST WHY NOT
14:19:14 <ehird> hmm ≡ is sometimes used for definition?
14:19:17 <ehird> maybe i could swap =/≡
14:19:21 <MissPiggy> or definitional equality
14:19:26 <ehird> oh or ≐ is a nice unicodey thing for :=
14:19:34 <ehird> not at all ridiculous like ≝
14:19:47 <MissPiggy> like y + x = x + y, but not definitionally
14:19:52 <MissPiggy> you need induction to prove it
14:20:49 * ehird wonders if he's crazy enough to do ÷ ∷ Boringtypeclasstypethingy → Anotherone → Maybe Yetanotherone
14:21:17 <ehird> Yesiree we have a mathematical programming language here, please ignore the endless handling of ÷'s return values behind the curtain
14:21:32 * ehird decides yes
14:21:36 <ehird> I am crazy enough.
14:21:50 <ehird> I just need nice syntax for doing things like this in expressions.
14:22:51 <ehird> Like, say f {x} (y z {r q {x}}) → (using haskell syntax) do x' <- x; x'' <- x; r_q_x' <- r q x''; return (f x' (y z r_q_x'))
14:23:03 <ehird> given some surrounding brackets to denote that it's a special expression thingy ofc
14:23:09 <ehird> that way you could use the maybe monad
14:23:27 <ehird> MissPiggy: So, do you think ≡ is a reasonable symbol for what-Haskell-calls (to avoid ambiguity) =?
14:23:29 <MissPiggy> why you would want to??
14:23:36 <MissPiggy> no I don't
14:23:40 <ehird> kay
14:23:48 <ehird> also,
14:23:58 <ehird> for one, Maybe handling
14:24:14 <ehird> 2 + {3 ÷ x}
14:24:20 <MissPiggy> hahahaha ÷
14:24:22 <ehird> yes!
14:24:26 <MissPiggy> nice
14:24:34 <MissPiggy> oh
14:24:43 <MissPiggy> "... enough to do ÷ ∷ Boringtypeclasstypethingy..."
14:24:46 <MissPiggy> I read that as a + :(
14:24:52 <ehird> lol
14:25:02 <MissPiggy> + ÷ = ≢ ≝
14:25:07 <ehird>