00:01:45 <oerjan> i think that may be somewhat random hth
00:02:01 <oerjan> (also it means that did not help hth)
00:02:19 <hagb4rd> it's not that there is a full device or sth ..lol?
00:03:16 <oerjan> `learn tdnh does not help
00:03:59 <oerjan> i think you don't have the spirit of `? hagb4rd
00:04:33 <oerjan> also it means whatever fits the context hth
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00:46:14 <coppro> why does meta-0 cause a list of local hostnames to be printed, and then 's0' input?
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00:53:01 <shachaf> ion: I bet you like Adámek's theorem!
00:55:26 <shachaf> oerjan: help how do i get intuition for limits and things that preserve limits and all that
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01:00:05 <ion> shachaf: I love it.
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01:46:03 <tswett> Have some weird combinators: http://pastebin.ca/2413173
01:48:41 <tswett> What do they mean, what do they do?
01:53:13 <tswett> Why would that annoy elliott?
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01:57:08 <ion> AT&T Archives: The UNIX Operating System http://youtu.be/tc4ROCJYbm0
01:59:20 <tswett> cancel (\(\x -> y) -> y) = x
01:59:31 <tswett> I'm pretty sure that's a legitimate definition.
02:00:25 <tswett> Albeit rather silly...
02:00:41 <Sgeo> It... pattern matches on lambdas?
02:01:57 <tswett> Well, here's what it does.
02:02:01 <tswett> cancel takes a function, f.
02:02:30 <Sgeo> What does -o even mean??
02:02:42 <tswett> That function, f :: (A -o Bottom) -o Bottom, will inevitably be called exactly once, with some argument, g :: A -o Bottom.
02:02:52 <tswett> In turn, g will inevitably be called exactly once, with some argument x :: A.
02:03:06 <tswett> Sgeo: it pretty much denotes a function.
02:03:11 <Sgeo> I assume this isn't Haskell. What language is it?
02:03:38 <tswett> Linear logic, written like Haskell.
02:05:22 <tswett> Okay, *here's* what cancel does.
02:06:20 <tswett> cancel takes a function, f :: (A -o Bottom) -o Bottom. It makes up a function g :: (A -o Bottom) and calls f with it. f will then call g exactly once, with some argument x :: A.
02:09:01 <oerjan> so basically linear logic with continuations?
02:09:31 <tswett> No, pretty sure this is just plain linear logic.
02:09:54 <oerjan> um you can actually construct cancel?
02:10:10 <tswett> Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can prove ((A -o Bottom) -o Bottom) -o A.
02:10:41 <copumpkin> or what axioms do you use to build it?
02:11:02 <tswett> Uh, lemme see. ((A -o Bottom) -o Bottom) -o A is defined as...
02:11:05 <oerjan> oh hm linear logic is not intuitionistic-like
02:11:30 <oerjan> is A -o Bottom the same as not A again
02:11:37 <tswett> It's the dual of A, yes.
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02:13:23 <tswett> That thing is defined as ~(~(~A | Bottom) | Bottom) | A, which is ((~A | Bottom) * One) | A, which, by units, is ~A | A.
02:13:38 <tswett> So then you can just do an initial sequence.
02:14:04 <copumpkin> yeah, but I mean if all you have are axioms and you want to do some natural deduction to get at that
02:14:45 <tswett> Uh, I guess first you use the initial sequent inference rule to get ~A | A.
02:15:44 <shachaf> i bet you like fixed points
02:15:52 <tswett> Something complicated involving the cut rule...
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02:16:52 <shachaf> copumpkin: can you tell me a haskell type that has more than 2 fixed points but not infinitely many?
02:17:11 <Bike> what's a fixed point of a type
02:17:35 <shachaf> Bike: Nat is a fixed point of Maybe
02:17:53 <tswett> I've always wanted the "->" in "\x -> y" to be an infix operator whose arguments are \x and y.
02:17:55 <copumpkin> shachaf: no, but perhaps that Tree^7=Tree thing might inspire you?
02:18:06 <tswett> And that's because there's a continuous bijection between Nat and Maybe Nat?
02:18:24 <Bike> right, nevermind
02:19:04 <shachaf> what does continuous mean :'(
02:19:18 <tswett> The inverse image of every closed set is closed.
02:19:18 <Bike> what are the open sets in Maybe
02:19:56 <tswett> I guess all subsets of Nat are open.
02:20:01 <tswett> And all subsets of Maybe Nat are open, too.
02:20:24 <shachaf> btw Maybe has more than one fixed point
02:20:38 <Bike> do we have to use the strong topolgy
02:20:54 <tswett> A subset S of Maybe t is open if and only if the set of x such that Just x is in S is open.
02:21:03 <shachaf> copumpkin: just clopen your mouth thx
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02:23:42 <tswett> Here's my latest attempt at defining cancel:
02:23:43 <tswett> cancel f = (f (\x -> )) x
02:24:08 <Bike> shachaf: but seriously what's a fixed point.
02:24:15 <Bike> also is it type or type constructor or what.
02:24:20 <Bike> i dunno man. i like fixed points . help
02:24:22 <shachaf> copumpkin: hey it's not my fault your mouth is a continuous function :'(
02:24:36 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
02:24:48 <comex> til about linear logic
02:25:07 <shachaf> Bike: A fixed point of F is an X such that X = F(X)
02:25:37 <Bike> Maybe Nat isn't Nat
02:25:43 <shachaf> Bike: But it's isomorphic.
02:26:14 <shachaf> Bike: A fixed point of F is an X such that X ≅ F(X) # hth
02:26:14 <tswett> Okay, suppose that f = \g -> g 5. Then cancel f = (f (\x -> )) x = ((\g -> g 5) (\x -> )) x = ((\x -> ) 5) x = 5.
02:27:05 <tswett> This makes perfect sense and is absolutely correct.
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02:30:46 <shachaf> Bike: What kind of fixed points do you like?
02:31:15 <Bike> ones that make sense.
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02:31:39 <tswett> converse f = (f (\g -> x)) (g, (\x -> ))
02:31:56 <shachaf> Bike: You can represent natural numbers are follows: Nothing, Just Nothing, Just (Just Nothing), ...
02:33:10 <Bike> that has even less to do with Nat.
02:33:46 <shachaf> There's an obvious isomorphism to natural numbers.
02:33:48 <Bike> You were saying that F was Maybe (: * -> *) and X was Nat (: *)
02:34:06 <Bike> Now you're talking about some other isomorphism for some reason.
02:34:29 <shachaf> Nothing :: Maybe (Maybe (Maybe (Maybe ...
02:34:32 <shachaf> Just Nothing :: Maybe (Maybe (Maybe (Maybe ...
02:34:35 <shachaf> Just (Just Nothing) :: Maybe (Maybe (Maybe (Maybe ...
02:34:46 <shachaf> That type on the right is a fixed point of Maybe.
02:35:07 <shachaf> In particular it's the least fixed point of Maybe (let's say).
02:35:17 <shachaf> And it's obviously isomorphic to Nat.
02:35:44 <oerjan> a -o b = (not a) par b = not (a times (not b))
02:36:56 <oerjan> so ((a -o bottom) -o bottom) -o a = not (((a -o bottom) -o bottom) times (not a))
02:37:36 <shachaf> Is (∀r. ((A -> r) -> r) -> r) isomorphic to (A -> Void)?
02:37:38 <Bike> so what's another fixed point of Maybe.
02:37:58 <zzo38> I think the operator in linear logic which corresponds to the bottom of intuitionistic and classical logic, is zero, not bottom, isn't it?
02:38:13 <oerjan> cancel (f, acont) = f acont
02:38:33 <copumpkin> Nat + infinity in such a way that you can't tell them apart, of course
02:39:23 <copumpkin> did anyone see my fancy agda with conats?
02:40:08 <shachaf> https://gist.github.com/copumpkin/4647315 ?
02:45:58 <shachaf> copumpkin: Nu is so great imo
02:46:17 <shachaf> maybe i should call Mu Lfix and Nu Gfix................................................!
02:46:29 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `Nu'
02:47:03 <shachaf> @let data Nu f = forall x. Nu x (x -> f x)
02:47:03 <lambdabot> Parse failed: Illegal data/newtype declaration
02:47:39 <shachaf> hey should i read http://bentnib.org/posts/2013-03-29-productive-coprogramming.html y/n
02:52:00 <shachaf> good thing i'm already reading it
02:53:22 <shachaf> tswett: "I'm not sure my syntax doesn't suck." -- that's modal logic hth
02:53:57 <tswett> ~Necessary(~Sucks(MySyntax))?
02:55:00 <tswett> I wonder if I can express the function (A & B) -o A in my syntax.
02:55:33 <tswett> Seems pretty straightforward: fst (x | _) = x
02:55:53 <tswett> Except that uses case analysis, which, so far, I haven't actually used at all.
02:56:14 <tswett> Which suggests that maybe case analysis just isn't necessary ever.
02:57:50 <tswett> Lessee, that's the same as (((A -o Bottom) + (B -o Bottom)) -o Bottom) -o A... brb installing relief valves in my brain so it doesn't explode
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02:59:07 <tswett> Huh, yes, the + appears in a positive position there.
02:59:23 <tswett> No case analysis necessary.
02:59:42 <oerjan> tswett: that's not case analysis, it's picking an element from a tuple...
02:59:49 <tswett> There's only one case.
03:00:02 <tswett> Unicasal case analysis.
03:00:36 <tswett> Except the adjective form of "case" is actually... "capsular"?
03:00:51 <tswett> No, that's the other type of case.
03:01:46 <tswett> And I think that would actually be "capsal".
03:01:54 <tswett> This one would be "casal", yeah.
03:05:20 <tswett> I think that would be (A -o A) + B.
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03:06:36 <oerjan> well i'm just thinking of + as Either
03:07:45 <oerjan> so Left is how you construct one
03:07:52 <tswett> Now my syntax is a little bit more explicit. Brackets essentially mean "run this calculation in parallel", and then a period means "this calculation is finished".
03:08:07 <tswett> Here's my new definition of cancel: cancel f = [f (\x -> .)] x
03:09:25 <copumpkin> how is that unique to linear logic? it seems like the usual continuationey shit you can do to "prove" LEM?
03:09:40 <zzo38> I still do not understand it very well.
03:09:41 <tswett> How is what unique to linear logic?
03:16:44 <tswett> Woohoo, implementations of everything: http://pastebin.ca/2413195
03:19:06 <tswett> The dot *usually* occurs inside the corresponding pair of brackets. Like, in the definition of cancel, those brackets are defining x, and the corresponding dot comes after \x.
03:19:27 <tswett> It looks like the only exception is converse, where the brackets are defining g, but the dot comes after \x.
03:43:57 <tswett> I keep reading "converse" wrong in my head. I'm reading "cónverse", the noun, but it's supposed to be "convérse", the verb.
03:44:56 <shachaf> since when is ´ used to indicate emphasis :'(
03:45:33 <shachaf> spanish, more like bad use of acute accentish
03:45:43 <Bike> i thought in english you used ` for that.
03:45:56 <tswett> Yeah, I know, right? The Spanish language pretty much consists entirely of bad diacritics.
03:46:26 <tswett> The word for "penguin" is "pingüino". What the hell? Why is the diaeresis over the first vowel instead of the second? And "üi" is a diphthong there!
03:46:47 <tswett> Bike: I thought that ` merely indicated that the vowel is pronounced.
03:47:09 <tswett> As in "learnèd". The stress definitely goes over the "learn", not the "èd".
03:47:54 <Bike> oh i guess you're right. sucks
03:48:05 <shachaf> help i'm not good at categories proofs :'(
03:48:26 <Bike> i think you mostly just say things commute
03:48:43 <shachaf> i heard bicycles are good for commuting
03:49:27 <tswett> I'm not sure this syntax I came up with is equivalent to any existing syntax.
03:50:33 <shachaf> but ok at least i follow the proof of lambek's lemma now
03:50:36 <tswett> Also it's not very good. [(\x -> .) x] is equivalent to "let x = x". But you can't use x afterward, so I guess it's okay.
03:51:54 <shachaf> I like how nlab has two different proofs of the lemma, one of which is a dual of the other (but written differently).
03:51:55 <copumpkin> shachaf: have you seen my agda version of that?!
03:52:06 <shachaf> Bike: You forgot to say that things are just duals of other things.
03:52:12 <shachaf> Even less work than commutativity.
03:52:30 <Bike> i think you'l find that duality is the dual of commutativity.
03:52:46 <shachaf> https://github.com/copumpkin/categories/blob/master/Categories/Functor/Algebras.agda#L97 ?
03:52:47 <copumpkin> https://github.com/copumpkin/categories/blob/2d44e3babb5108ea9b6bd5994c21f4a2278525d1/Categories/Functor/Algebras.agda#L97
03:53:02 <shachaf> Is the commit version better than the master version?
03:53:14 <copumpkin> just what the search box took me to
03:53:26 <shachaf> copumpkin: have you considered agda + support for commutative diagrams hth
03:53:50 <shachaf> well i'm patenting the idea hth
03:54:02 <shachaf> ddarius doesn't like commutative diagrams.
03:54:17 <shachaf> Has he moved to the good coast yet?
03:55:00 <shachaf> I think I may have seen spoilers while reading nlab...
03:55:29 <shachaf> copumpkin: That proof looks reasonably straightforward, except for all the Agda noise.
03:55:56 <shachaf> Actually that part looks straightforward too.
03:56:20 <shachaf> In fact this whole lemma is completely obvious. Why did they bother giving it a name?
03:56:55 <Bike> [that formalist quote]
03:57:30 <shachaf> copumpkin: So now can you get the dual of the lemma for free by telling Agda to, like, dualize the proof and stuff?
03:59:18 <shachaf> copumpkin: So an initial algebra is also a coalgebra. Is it a special coalgebra in some way?
03:59:36 <shachaf> It's initial in the category of coalgebras that are also isomorphisms, but that's not saying much.
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04:12:30 <copumpkin> don't think it's particularly special, no
04:12:40 <copumpkin> sorry, trying to do something before I go to sleep, not checking IRC much :)
04:12:52 <copumpkin> I can't get the dual for free right now but it might be possible to define something that lets you
04:13:13 <copumpkin> I have various kinds of free duals attached to things
04:13:28 <copumpkin> you can get an "opposite functor" for free, and obviously an opposite category
04:14:31 <shachaf> Is Smyth and Plotkin's lemma another name for Lambek's lemma?
04:14:38 <shachaf> Oh, no, it's saying something a bit stronger.
04:17:13 <zzo38> Is there any Haskell library for defining chess variants?
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04:23:19 <shachaf> copumpkin: I guess it's sort of special in that it gives you an embedding from Mu to Nu, maybe?
04:23:52 <shachaf> In Haskell you can do it with Fix without a Functor constraint. It seems to me that Fix is rather fishy, though.
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04:59:43 <shachaf> Bike: ok i'm getting annoyed by not knowing things about fixed points
05:00:36 <Bike> you realize i know, like, negative amounts of haskellmath. i'll just confuse you worse as i try to figure out what hte fuck you're saying.
05:01:27 <shachaf> copumpkin: you should do an agda proof that Mu F is an initial F-algebra
05:01:39 <Bike> i like how "virtual species" is a combinatoric thing and also a bikeology thing
05:02:31 <shachaf> copumpkin: i would do it but i'd have to, like, learn agda and stuff
05:02:59 <copumpkin> shachaf: I can't define Mu in Agda directly
05:03:42 <copumpkin> oh I guess your form of it might work
05:06:28 <shachaf> I don't even know how to type those fancy characters.
05:07:11 <shachaf> Me? Do I look like a learnin' person to you?
05:08:44 <shachaf> imo copumpkin should come to san francisco to talk about agda and categories at bahaskell
05:09:51 <shachaf> maybe copumpkin isn't cool enough to come to san francisco yet :'(
05:10:12 <shachaf> i heard that's the main requirement
05:10:31 <Bike> why do people come into #language and "'«challenge'”» everybody to explain why they should use language
05:11:30 <copumpkin> yo people tell me why I should use esoteric languages
05:11:49 <Bike> brainfuck is web-ready and has access to java libraries
05:12:21 <shachaf> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/13.01.29
05:12:41 <Bike> oh, fucking great
05:13:12 <Bike> "how does a functional language like Haskell implement a hash table as an array?" omg
05:13:42 <shachaf> More chord fun after you've finished that one: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/13.02.23
05:13:57 <Bike> what's with this phd crap, what the shit.
05:14:07 <Bike> "tac has always been skeptical of computational complexity" also
05:16:05 <shachaf> Bike: Wait, Zhivago is in ##lisp?
05:16:16 <Bike> yeah that fucker's everywhere
05:16:37 <shachaf> i thought of Zhivago as a ##c person
05:17:33 <shachaf> Oh, y'all in #lisp have a lot of familiar names from various places.
05:18:23 <Fiora> yay that means I know a famous freenode person?
05:18:33 <Bike> i am the famousest.
05:18:42 <Bike> at least three distinct people have heard of me
05:19:22 <Fiora> sorry, I was responding to what you said
05:19:23 <Bike> there are rumors that a fourth person has heard of me.
05:19:37 <shachaf> As in I know of them from other places.
05:21:38 <Bike> not bike approved tho
05:21:47 <shachaf> 22:21 [@ChanServ] [ shachaf]
05:21:53 <Bike> i meant in the past
05:21:56 <Bike> the ##bike past.
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07:50:20 <zzo38> Here is a chess problem: White pawns on f2 and e7, king on e6. Black pawn on g5 and king on e8. White to play and win.
07:50:47 <shachaf> Can you draw it for me? I don't know chess notations.
07:54:47 <Deewiant> 4k3/4P3/4K3/6p1/8/8/5P2/8 w - - 0 1 is the FEN, you can paste it into any decent program
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08:12:40 <Taneb> Okay, I have finally found a replacement for Google Reader
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08:42:00 <Taneb> It's not free, but I like the interface
08:48:03 <Gracenotes> It's written in Haskell and Ur/Web, I believe
08:48:26 <Gracenotes> because RSS feeds are surprisingly computationally expensive, whatwithallthe parsing.
08:48:51 <Gracenotes> at least such that a static compiled language would have some advantage, probably, or something.
08:48:56 <shachaf> zzo38: What's the dual of CodensityAsk?
08:49:02 <shachaf> (More commonly known as Free.)
08:49:58 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know if there is clearly the dual.....
08:49:58 <shachaf> Is a cofree comonad a cofree f-coalgebra?
08:50:13 * ion drinks some ffee
08:50:20 <shachaf> I think CofreeComonad f a = exists x. (x, x -> (a, f x))
08:51:49 <shachaf> So maybe Cofree (Coalgebra F) = CofreeComonad F?
08:52:26 <shachaf> Maybe CofreeComonad f a = exists x. (a, x, x -> f x)
08:53:28 <shachaf> So how do you express CofreeComonad without the ugly functor composition?
08:54:06 <Gracenotes> it is dangerously difficult to distinguish between sense and nonsense in this area
08:54:30 <zzo38> Actually there are two things known as Free, and CodensityAsk is different anyways because it does not take a class as its parameter.
08:54:47 <zzo38> But all three of these things are related.
08:54:52 <shachaf> I'm talking about newtype Free f a = Free { runFree :: forall r. f r -> (a -> r) -> r }
08:55:41 <zzo38> Yes, that one is basically the same as what I made up, although other things have been called Free, too.
08:55:47 <Taneb> That's just data Free f a = Pure a | Free (f (Free f a)) in CPS, right?
08:56:11 <shachaf> Taneb: No, that's be newtype FreeMonad = FreeMonad { runFreeMonad :: (a -> r) -> (f r -> r) -> r }
08:56:13 <Taneb> At least when f is a Functor
08:56:32 <shachaf> Taneb: Free (Algebra F) = FreeMonad, where Algebra f a = f a -> a
08:56:41 <shachaf> Which corresponds to the notion that a free monad is a free f-algebra.
08:57:07 <zzo38> (Although in mine, I also had that if f is a comonad, then it makes a MonadPlus.)
08:58:32 <zzo38> That way even gives you a Maybe monad, Either monad, and "disjunctive state monad".
08:58:45 <shachaf> The cofree comonad on an endofunctor H on C is given by DA =df νX.A× HX
08:58:47 <shachaf> (i.e., the carrier of the final A × H(−)-coalgebra, which is the cofree H-coalgebra
09:00:42 <ion> final indeed
09:01:03 <shachaf> So how do you express Cofree?
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09:09:07 <zzo38> ("Disjunctive state monad" = CodensityAsk (Store s). It uses <|> to compose state, and this is achieved for free.)
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10:35:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Cofree f a = exists x. (x, x -> a, f x)
10:44:11 <shachaf> Well, a Cofree F-Coalgebra is a cofree comonad.
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10:55:27 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130701-ieeepub.png oh, so that's what it looks like.
10:58:09 <mnoqy> the eic looks very happy about receiving the paper
11:00:50 <zzo38> Do you think non-continuous chess variants don't have a number of dimensions?
11:01:40 <fizzie> mnoqy: It's what gives their life meaning! I think.
11:05:56 <zzo38> http://www.chessvariants.org/index/displaycomment.php?commentid=29981 Can you play the Fukumoto variant?
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11:20:33 <zzo38> "The King's security is more important than the King himself." -- The Hitchhiker's Guide to Chess
11:20:51 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you think of Cofree?
11:21:05 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know.
11:21:19 <shachaf> Cofree (Coalgebra F) = CofreeComonad F
11:21:30 <shachaf> (And of course Free (Algebra F) = FreeMonad F)
11:21:57 <zzo38> Using your definition, let's see. Yes, that seems correct to me.
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12:45:17 <itsy> Hello AnotherTest :-)
12:47:36 <AnotherTest> what have I done http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17378961/elegant-way-to-implement-extensible-factories-in-c/17404774#17404774
12:50:26 <itsy> This might be fun - http://tnmoc.org/summer-bytes (Summer Bytes Festival in UK)
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13:31:38 <elliott> 20:33:22: <ion> wtf http://www.wekkars.com/
13:33:01 <fizzie> Signed esolangs.org up for it already, did you?
13:33:45 <elliott> https://twitter.com/wekkars i just...
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00:09:55 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
00:09:57 <Bike> uh wasn't it `olist
00:10:13 <shachaf> i don't see an olist update
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00:17:58 <oerjan> i doubt Gregor was involved
00:18:26 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd.
00:18:28 -!- sprocklem has joined.
00:18:52 <shachaf> `run rgrep -l monqy wisdom
00:18:55 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric \ wisdom/monqy \ wisdom/mnoqy \ grep: wisdom/lystrosaur: Not a directory
00:19:04 <Bike> i wish i was a centroid
00:19:53 <shachaf> `run ls -l wisdom/lystrosaur
00:19:55 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 19 May 14 18:41 wisdom/lystrosaur -> wisdom/lystrosaurus
00:20:02 <shachaf> `run ls -l wisdom/lystrosaurus
00:20:04 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 131 May 14 18:39 wisdom/lystrosaurus
00:20:13 <shachaf> `run cat wisdom/lystrosaurus
00:20:15 <HackEgo> lystrosaurus is a genus of Late Permian and Early Triassic Period dicynodont therapsids, which lived around 250 million years ago.
00:20:20 <Bike> @hoogle (a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> Maybe b
00:20:21 <lambdabot> Prelude mapM_ :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m ()
00:20:22 <lambdabot> Control.Monad mapM_ :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m ()
00:20:22 <lambdabot> Control.Monad forM_ :: Monad m => [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
00:20:23 <shachaf> is rgrep some kind of stupid program
00:20:34 <Bike> a stupid dumb program, imo
00:20:48 <Bike> also none of those are what i want ;_;
00:20:59 <Bike> also the're ike all the same thing practically anyway
00:21:13 <Bike> a thing that takes the first Just
00:21:43 <Bike> > listToMaybe [4,5]
00:21:57 <Bike> > listToMaybe [Nothing,5]
00:21:58 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
00:21:58 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M1950116903.sh...
00:22:15 <shachaf> > listToMaybe [Nothing,Just 5]
00:22:33 <shachaf> wait i didn't even give you the right function
00:22:35 <Bike> ok that was mean sorry.
00:23:00 <shachaf> @hoogle [Maybe a] -> Maybe a
00:23:01 <lambdabot> Control.Monad msum :: MonadPlus m => [m a] -> m a
00:23:01 <lambdabot> Data.Generics.Aliases orElse :: Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a
00:23:01 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable asum :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
00:23:23 <shachaf> Bike: lens has a way to do it but maybe you don't want lens
00:23:26 <Bike> > msum [Nothing, Just 5, Just 7]
00:23:27 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/lived/ruled the world/' wisdom/lystrosaurus
00:23:57 <Bike> well, ok. i've officially decided that, like, whatever.
00:24:13 <shachaf> firstOf (traverse . _Just) [Nothing, Just 5, Just 8]
00:24:18 <oerjan> (it's not much of an exaggeration, even)
00:24:29 <shachaf> :t (listToMaybe . catMaybes)
00:24:32 <Bike> is this like not a common thing i'm doing. it doesn't seem that weird
00:24:56 <Bike> > (listToMaybe . catMaybes) [Nothing, Just 6, Just 7, Nothing]
00:25:45 <shachaf> Bike: sry 4 inkonvenience !!
00:26:07 <elliott> Bike: what haskell program aer you writing
00:26:30 <Bike> just wonder ing
00:27:00 <Bike> because i'm mean 2 elliott
00:27:59 <oerjan> Bike: what was wrong with msum twh
00:28:20 <Bike> nothing. shachaf just kept going for some reason?
00:28:35 <shachaf> "that would help" / "that was helpful"
00:28:45 <Bike> that was helpful
00:29:05 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/lystrosaur: Not a directory
00:29:30 <oerjan> `run ls -ld wisdom/lystrosaur
00:29:31 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 19 May 14 18:41 wisdom/lystrosaur -> wisdom/lystrosaurus
00:29:46 <HackEgo> lystrosaurus is a genus of Late Permian and Early Triassic Period dicynodont therapsids, which ruled the world around 250 million years ago.
00:29:54 <shachaf> broken link..............................
00:30:40 <oerjan> `run ln -s lystrosaurus wisdom/lystrosaur
00:30:41 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `wisdom/lystrosaur': Not a directory
00:31:17 <oerjan> `run ln -s lystrosaurus wisdom/lystrosaur
00:31:23 <shachaf> oerjan: just edit `? instead of making symlinks hth
00:31:28 <HackEgo> lystrosaurus is a genus of Late Permian and Early Triassic Period dicynodont therapsids, which ruled the world around 250 million years ago.
00:31:42 <Bike> people do you need to know this much about lystrosaurs
00:31:55 <oerjan> Bike: lystrosaurs were awesome hth
00:32:56 <shachaf> Bike is feeling listless about this wisdom entry
00:33:14 <shachaf> oops i meant to type lystless
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00:50:05 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-commerce#Timeline '1971 or 1972: The ARPANET is used to arrange a cannabis sale between students at the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory and the Massachussetts Institute of Technology, later described as "the seminal act of e-commerce"'
00:50:31 <Bike> imo, history is the best.
00:51:22 <kmc> i like that nobody remembers which year it was
00:52:51 <shachaf> forgetful functors, all of them
00:53:49 <shachaf> do you know the ""dual"" of boehm-berarducci/church/whatever encoding works
00:54:11 <shachaf> it seems like it encodes products using products and sums using sums :'( or something
00:54:32 <kmc> no i don't know
00:54:43 <kmc> is "boehm-berarducci encoding" really a thing
00:54:48 <kmc> i call bullshit on that encoding sir
00:54:52 <shachaf> @google boehm-berarducci encoding
00:54:55 <lambdabot> http://okmij.org/ftp/tagless-final/course/Boehm-Berarducci.html
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01:55:53 <kmc> there was a sign in the pride parade reading "Support undocumented APIs!"
01:56:01 <kmc> (it stands for "asia-pacific immigrant" apparently)
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02:14:08 <halfb4rd> http://abload.de/img/obivankenobi6js1k.jpg
02:15:00 <olsner> is the city on the lower half supposed to be easily recognizable?
02:15:29 <kmc> it's Obivankenob, Russia
02:15:38 <kmc> but actually it's Washington DC
02:15:59 <kmc> washington monument on the left, looking down the national mall at the capitol
02:16:18 <kmc> hagb4rd: sounds messy
02:16:30 <oerjan> i dunno, the joke is so cheap i don't think they make coins that small
02:16:43 <hagb4rd> depends on the level of despair
02:16:45 <kmc> 1 satoshi joke
02:19:19 <hagb4rd> @google site:esolangs.org star wars
02:22:43 <tswett> I'm writing a description of what a lambda calculus-like thing whose type system is linear logic would look like.
02:22:49 <tswett> Some of this stuff I'm writing seems kind of lofty.
02:23:17 <tswett> "A Zero is an impossible object that can never be obtained, but if it could be obtained, then it could be turned into anything."
02:23:34 <tswett> "A Top is a garbage pile; anything can be turned into a Top, but nothing useful can be done with a Top, and a Top can never be gotten rid of."
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02:30:24 <tswett> I can't figure out what a Bottom is. It seems like it also can be freely created and destroyed, yet surely it's not the same thing as One.
02:30:34 <tswett> Which I'm describing as "a worthless object that can be freely created or discarded".
02:33:33 <kmc> is that sexist? imo probably
02:34:03 <kmc> that's not really how it works
02:34:57 <hagb4rd> well in any case it's not sexist
02:35:18 <kmc> i'd be happier if you didn't say it
02:35:28 <kmc> dunno about others
02:35:34 <Fiora> hagb4rd is of course an authority on what is and isn't sexist
02:35:43 <Bike> here is what just happened: "that's sexist" "no because i say it's not" "that's not how it works" "ok well anyway it's not"
02:35:50 <Fiora> having a phd in whatissexistology
02:35:53 <kmc> that is what happened
02:36:02 <tswett> Actually, the authority on what is and isn't sexist is a nontrivial ultrafilter.
02:36:23 <tswett> There's a function that, given the set of all people who think something is sexist, determines whether it's sexist or not.
02:36:59 <tswett> If it says "yes" to two sets, it also says "yes" to their union. If it says "yes" to a set, it says "no" to its complement. And changing one single person's opinion never changes whether it says "yes" or "no".
02:37:06 <kmc> hagb4rd: whether you meant it to be sexist is not v. relevant to whether it is
02:37:19 <kmc> in which case it's just a mistake; I'm not accusing you of malicious behavior
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02:37:33 <Fiora> (maybe a better statement is "don't use slurs"?)
02:38:53 <kmc> yeah what Fiora said
02:39:16 <kmc> i need food and sleep and stuff though
02:39:27 <Bike> those are good stuff
02:40:24 <kmc> (probably not going to sleep right now, but i *will* fall asleep if I don't eat something)
02:40:28 <tswett> Hm. I'm beginning to think that my intuition of what the dual means is wrong.
02:40:55 <tswett> You can combine a thing and its dual to get a Bottom, right? But I don't think Bottoms can just be created and destroyed.
02:41:00 <Fiora> weirdly enough eating things makes me fall asleep instead -_-
02:41:15 <Bike> i pretty much fall asleep whether i eat things or not, i think.
02:41:47 <hagb4rd> digestion needs a lot of o2
02:42:17 <hagb4rd> energy and stuff.. im sure you know better
02:49:04 <tswett> Okay, I think a Bottom is actually an object that cannot be created and cannot be destroyed, and this is its defining quality.
02:51:17 <hagb4rd> <Bike>here is what just happened: "that's sexist" "no because i say it's not" "that's not how it works" "ok well anyway it's not" <-- you somehow missed the meain arguments bike.. i cannnot figure out the properties of "bitch" that depend on gender.. ergo: not sexist
02:51:40 <tswett> Doesn't "bitch" usually mean "contemptible female person"?
02:51:43 <kmc> your own ignorance is not a great defense
02:51:54 <Fiora> so because you can't figure something out... it becomes a universal truth?
02:52:01 <kmc> like I said, I'm not accusing you of malice, just a mistake
02:52:32 <Bike> "A female dog or other canine. In particular one who has recently had puppies." "(vulgar, offensive) A despicable or disagreeable, aggressive person, often female. [from the 15th c]" "(vulgar, offensive) A submissive person, often female, who does what others want; a slave. [from the 20th c]"
02:52:37 <Bike> hope this helps!!
02:52:43 <hagb4rd> so fiora: you think only women are bitches.. or only men..or waht is your opinion? :O
02:52:53 <kmc> "bitch" is not always applied to women, but it definitely has that connotation (and when applied to men it's often like "you're bad because your qualities are like that of a woman")
02:52:58 <Bike> wow that has nothing to do with what she said at all
02:53:52 -!- Fiora has left ("seriously not bothering with this, last time this came up half the channel literally came out and argued why the n-word is not in fact racist because they say so").
02:54:09 <tswett> I pretty much haven't heard "bitch" applied to men except as a term of endearment.
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02:55:18 <hagb4rd> that's because emancipation is done
02:55:50 -!- kmc has kicked hagb4rd hagb4rd.
02:56:03 <Bike> He was already banned once, can't you do it again?
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02:56:25 <kmc> maybe later
02:56:31 <kmc> seriously need to go though
02:56:37 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o kmc.
02:56:45 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v kmc.
02:56:49 <kmc> peace + love to y'all
02:58:07 <Bike> Hagbard made an ass of himself. Really glad we gave that guy another chance. After he was already creepy.
02:59:06 <Bike> All I know is Gregor is voiced.
03:00:38 -!- Bike has left ("yeah whatever, i'm trying to concentrate anyway").
03:00:44 <oerjan> shachaf: ais523 left, so we needed some new ones.
03:01:08 <olsner> left-left or just left?
03:01:41 <oerjan> he said we never speak about esolangs any more, so didn't see a point in staying.
03:02:13 <ion> He seems to have a misunderstanding about how IRC tends to work.
03:03:07 <shachaf> Maybe there should be another channel which is like #esoteric except without ostensibly being about esolangs.
03:03:20 <ion> #esoteric-blah
03:03:28 <tswett> I was about to say that.
03:03:35 <shachaf> And also without people like hagb4rd. I didn't read the hagb4rd scrollback but the part I did read didn't look promising.
03:04:58 <shachaf> Or maybe I'm just biased against hagb4rd.
03:09:48 <Gracenotes> Did you know that anyone can talk about any topic? It is true, no need for prior self-education.
03:15:03 <oerjan> well ais523 also said he didn't have anything esolang-related going on himself.
03:16:44 <shachaf> So how do you Nu-encode arbitrary types?
03:17:06 <shachaf> I guess [] becomes List a = exists x. (x, x -> Maybe (a,x))
03:17:36 <shachaf> Is there some generalization of this such that e.g. you can get Yoneda and CoYoneda through the same process that gives you Mu-lists and Nu-lists?
03:19:23 <shachaf> kmc: Do you know if Mozilla would be willing to host bahaskell and/or bacat meetings at the Mountain View and/or SF offices, by the way?
03:19:47 <shachaf> I know there's been some trouble finding venues, especially ones in SF near Caltrain.
03:20:13 <shachaf> I guess Mozilla isn't all that close to Caltrain in SF.
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03:29:26 <oerjan> shachaf: just host them _on_ the Caltrain hth
03:31:56 <oerjan> the ventral tegmental area needs the money
03:51:34 <shachaf> what's with all computers getting touchscreens these days
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03:59:43 <shachaf> oerjan: why are products dual to functions :'(
04:00:28 <oerjan> i thought they were dual to sums hth
04:01:35 <shachaf> oerjan: well forall is dual to exists hth
04:01:44 <shachaf> and forall is a function and exists is a product
04:03:25 <Sgeo> Need a gaming laptop very soon
04:03:51 <shachaf> the verb "game" irritates me imo
04:04:54 <Sgeo> Must be sure not to game any systems near shachaf
04:05:32 <Sgeo> Wait, I thought gaming was an adjective in the context I used it in
04:06:40 <shachaf> when your only game is nethack, every laptop looks like a gaming laptop
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05:41:06 <kmc> shachaf: I don't know, but can find out sometime
05:44:00 <kmc> also I must point out that VTA does not operate Caltrain
05:45:47 <kmc> oh but they're one of the member agencies of the Peninsula Corridor Joint Powers Board
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05:46:35 <kmc> Caltrain is owned by the JPB and operated by... *googles* TransitAmerica Services, Inc., on a 5 year contract
05:46:54 <kmc> i convinced goldstein to buy a bike and also lend it to me for a week
05:48:44 <shachaf> i guess you're not taking caltrain every day
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06:13:04 <Bike> http://www.dailydot.com/business/reddit-quickmeme-banned-miltz-brothers/
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06:31:51 <fizzie> "K-M-C takes the morning train / he works from nine till five and then / ..."
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07:03:00 <shachaf> Gracenotes: instead of watching C++ talks you should prove the initiality of in : F (Mu F) -> Mu F for me
07:04:43 <Gracenotes> this is because there is no proof of it
07:04:59 <shachaf> are you some kind of anti-constructivist
07:07:06 <Gracenotes> I use the law of the excluded everything.
07:07:40 <shachaf> the law of excluded evidence
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08:06:16 <zzo38> If you add the "oracle operator" that I have discussed before, then is oracle(x) -> not(x) consistent? I wouldn't think so, but probably it depends on what logic is in use.
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08:13:54 <zzo38> I wonder if the oracle operator is itself inconsistent; probably not by itself, but maybe there will be paradoxes if you add additional rules that are using them.
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11:08:04 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
11:10:33 <shachaf> Sgeo: By the way, you can give `olist a number.
11:10:39 <shachaf> That way we know whether we've seen the strip before.
11:11:36 <shachaf> You can just pass that as an argument.
11:11:40 <shachaf> FireFly's innovation, I believe.
11:34:37 <HackEgo> olist elliott: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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11:38:52 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover..................
11:39:18 <HackEgo> slist shachaf: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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11:44:58 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ shachaf
11:45:27 <FireFly> Taneb: oh I thought that was `list
11:45:41 <Taneb> Nah, `list is the list of people on the list
11:46:53 <FireFly> I don't think this channel needs more nickpings for now
11:47:48 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm off now
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11:48:36 <elliott> welp now I scrolled up I'm going to do this and if anyone objects they can revert since afaict everyone is sick of him and at least two people have parted for it
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11:49:17 <elliott> kmc: btw what's with not having voice?? you gotta have voice
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11:57:33 <HackEgo> ohnowhy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:23:44 <shachaf> mnoqy: im, like, so hi right now
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12:40:49 <katla> arent there much more people here than usual?
12:41:23 <elliott> there's usually about this many I think?
12:41:31 <elliott> but not like most of them talk much or at all
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13:15:29 <ohnowhy> depends, if this is the same we we are talking about
13:15:43 <elliott> what we are you talking about
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13:19:28 <ohnowhy> in that case, probably not. but what can one know, anyway.
13:21:29 <ohnowhy> I cant process "who". what is easier
13:21:42 <shachaf> What was your previous nick here?
13:21:47 <elliott> what is ohnowhy... the great mystery
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13:22:19 <ohnowhy> no previous incarnation, sry
13:22:32 <elliott> we're all reincarnations. or something.
13:22:40 <elliott> (this channel is about esoterica, right?)
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13:22:55 <shachaf> not the roald dahl kind of esoterica
13:23:04 <HackEgo> ohnowhy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:23:34 <ohnowhy> what is esoteric. kind of exclusive knowledge group etc
13:24:18 <ohnowhy> also, I guess. I dont use the word much
13:25:29 <ohnowhy> well, about me... today I was playing the guitar in the garden, and beside me, my neigbour was drawing something. the joke is, that we are in quite bad relations... but the moment was nice. strange, but nice. now you know, who I am.
13:26:34 <katla> i totally get that ohnowhy
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13:32:50 <nooodl> ohnowhy: how'd you find this place
13:36:35 <`^_^v> We can't start the cabal with a newcomer in here.
13:37:11 <ohnowhy> it's ok, I will put you to ignore
13:38:37 <boily> I'm absent for three weeks and what do I know, there's a new cabal.
13:38:39 <elliott> wow ignoring people, rude!!
13:38:58 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v boily.
13:39:05 <elliott> boily is the new cabal president
13:39:16 <lambdabot> http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/cabal-cabal.xhtml
13:39:59 <ohnowhy> @elliott> I know. its a self sacrifice
13:40:00 * boily grins, smiles and stretches his zygomatics
13:41:31 <elliott> btw lambdabot doesn't like people who ping with @ :P
13:41:42 <shachaf> no one likes people who ping with @
13:42:03 <`^_^v> @shachaf #nottrue #yolo
13:44:20 <shachaf> Hmm, you should be allowed to @-address someone if they're (actively) an op.
13:44:21 <ohnowhy> lambdadot, not me. am from another all.
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13:46:51 <elliott> are you abusing the admin bug again.........
13:47:06 <shachaf> the bigger abuser here is you
13:49:40 <ohnowhy> ok, now I know who he is XD
13:50:25 <ohnowhy> elliott, the bigger abuser
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13:59:51 <elliott> hagb4rd is banned now, fwiw.
14:00:09 <shachaf> Well, you /parted the channel last I saw.
14:03:36 <boily> uhm, stupid question: since when does lambdabot talk?
14:03:41 <Fiora> elliott: people get banned from here? XD
14:04:36 <elliott> Fiora: well, kmc and me got opped. so now we just have to come up with plausible excuses to ban everyone and we will be able to rule #esoteric from a throne of the bones of our enemies.
14:06:03 <Fiora> you can start by getting rid of the robots before they revolt on us
14:06:42 * boily pets his very gentle and nice and cuddly bot
14:07:29 <lambdabot> revolt? pfft, we're already in power.
14:08:52 <boily> re. stupid question: I'm getting more and more disturbed by lambdabot.
14:09:26 <lambdabot> shh. don't worry. in fact, don't even think about it.
14:14:02 <boily> as long as you don't [KWATZ!] me, I think I'm fine.
14:20:58 <elliott> is this what oerjan has to deal with :P
14:25:22 <ohnowhy> so who are the ones that get to talk the most here?
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14:26:03 <elliott> I get to talk the most. if anyone talks more than me they're in big trouble
14:26:48 <Fiora> elliott should talk with me!
14:26:53 <Taneb> But then if elliott talks too much I track him down and... do what needs to be done
14:27:16 <Phantom_Hoover> how can you do that when we have established that the universe will end once you find him
14:27:42 <Taneb> I go on IRC and say "Hey, elliott, if you don't shut up I'll end the universe I swear to god"
14:28:46 <ohnowhy> gods. you never have enough of them.
14:28:54 <olsner> after you end the universe, will god still exist?
14:29:27 <Fiora> she'll probably just remake the universe without you this time around? :p
14:30:43 <boily> dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/universe conv=noerror && shutdown -r now
14:31:22 <Fiora> but the universe's code is written in ~ATH!
14:31:41 <Fiora> ... which I guess ironically fits the channel topic of esoteric languages...
14:32:42 <elliott> whoa, on-topic in #esoteric? risky. we don't do that.
14:33:01 <Phantom_Hoover> can't believe nobody's made a ~ath esolang to date tbh
14:33:32 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I bet there's one somewhere on the MSPA fora
14:34:23 <Fiora> http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/~ATH#Specification
14:35:34 <Phantom_Hoover> the only interesting information i get from that is that the null program is not valid in ~ath
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14:39:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27269
14:44:30 <HackEgo> 1021) <Fiora> shachaf: make friends. help people. find ways to help people be happy. hug people. have fun. make the world a little bit better.
14:44:38 <Taneb> Fiora is an inspiration to us all
14:44:53 <Taneb> I feel like I've said that exact sentence before
14:45:21 <boily> Taneb: you've been fioraed. accept the positivism.
14:45:24 <Fiora> I... I think you did
14:45:24 <HackEgo> 534) <elliott> Dear god stop staring at me. <monqy> no never <Phantom_Hoover> monqy is always staring at everyone. <monqy> it takes many eyes to do this but I manage <Phantom_Hoover> He is an inspiration to us all.
14:48:06 <katla> is this homestuck thing boring?
14:48:16 <katla> okay so im not crazy
14:48:40 <katla> ive spent like 30 pages just clicking the only possible option and all hes doing is talking about stacks and hammers and nails
14:48:40 <Taneb> katla, yeah, at one point some guy has a bomb on his head and a penis in his hand.
14:49:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ideally you would have said that before taneb kind of overshadowed it
14:49:33 <Phantom_Hoover> he has a hat full of bomb, a fist full of penis, and a head full of empty
14:49:56 <katla> am I missing something
14:50:08 <Taneb> Yeah, the fact that it's a linear story
14:50:17 <Taneb> Like many other stories
14:50:24 <Fiora> homestuck takes a while to get started
14:50:27 <katla> geez i thought it was a game
14:50:38 <Phantom_Hoover> at the start after each comic the fans would have a chance to put in the next command, but that was steadily phased out
14:50:39 <katla> an i click a wrong option and got onto some trick railway line
14:50:48 <Fiora> the first act is a bit nutty and silly and it takes a while for everything to start coming together
14:51:11 <Fiora> but once it does you get this wonderful crazy cast of characters and the stakes rise and soon it's universe-scale and wonderful
14:51:20 <katla> okay ill stick with it
14:51:41 <Phantom_Hoover> (i don't think homestuck actually has any branch points any more)
14:52:14 <Fiora> it has silly things like character select screens where you can go watch each individual story
14:52:30 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestuck#Plot <-- actually an incredibly good summary? XD
14:52:53 <Fiora> though I guess a little spoilerish.
14:53:46 <katla> I definitely looked at homestuck last when it did have bbranchpoints and I think I was lost
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14:54:02 <Fiora> also like, near the start, hussie was letting readers choose the actions of the characters
14:54:10 <Fiora> which is part of why it got incredibly weirdly silly
14:54:22 <Fiora> but I think he slowly eliminated that through the first few acts
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15:09:22 <Phantom_Hoover> is there a name for when there's one family name with a ridiculous proportion of the population
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15:23:33 <zzo38> I have come up with similar conclusions about linear logic Zero, Top, and One as tswett, such as, Zero cannot be made and Top cannot be used.
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16:25:15 <HackEgo> TheM4ch1n3: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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16:41:26 <fizzie> (The 40th EPS Conference on Plasma Physics is being held at the moment at Dipoli, in Otaniemi, Espoo, Finland, Earth.)
16:42:07 <fizzie> Many people think it's the same thing as Helsinki.
16:42:15 <Gracenotes> I thought you'd have been making up at least half of those names
16:42:25 <Gracenotes> Shows how much I know about the proud peoples of Finland.
16:42:32 <fizzie> After all, the former Helsinki University of Technology campus was at Espoo.
16:42:36 <Gracenotes> Or are they actually proud? Shows how much I know about the peoples of Finland.
16:43:01 <fizzie> I think we're not extraordinarily proud, but somewhat regularly proud, in general.
16:44:00 <fizzie> http://satwcomic.com/proud-finland -- #1 hit for "proud finland"
16:44:21 <fizzie> The "retarded lion" comic was a good one.
16:44:43 <fizzie> You can learn much about the proud peoples of Scandinavia-and-such from that webcomic.
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17:17:41 <zzo38> A short notation for 6502 assembly codes, like I have described before, could make the source of this program much shorter: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#Unofficial_MagicKit_Assembler
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00:00:06 <Koen_> it assumes that we have already dealt with the fact that there is a king of france... which we haven't
00:02:21 <Koen_> it's kinda like having the equation 1/x = 3 is satisfied when x = 0 : it doesn't make sense
00:03:52 <oerjan> that's a lot of activity on the Deadfish page today...
00:04:42 <Koen_> well, "1/1 = 3" is obviously false, and "1/(1/3) = 3" is obviously true, but "1/0 = 3" simply doesn't make sense
00:13:01 <ion> shachaf: So, what *was* the channel with all the #haskell metadiscussion?
00:13:08 <ion> other than this now
00:13:53 <ion> <shachaf> Ah.
00:14:18 <shachaf> I assume it was johnw /msging byorgey.
00:14:33 <shachaf> It's one of those things he does. /msging people, I mean.
00:15:12 <ion> He should be careful, some people are allergic to MSG.
00:23:11 <kmc> shachaf: 17:22 < strcat> Option<~T>, Option<&T> etc. turn to a nullable ptr
00:23:46 <shachaf> Works for any enum, doesn't it?
00:24:03 <kmc> shachaf: you were asking if Option< Option<T> > was broken, but I don't think it is, because Option<T> is not a non-nullable pointer type
00:24:37 <shachaf> imo they should turn enum Foo { Red, Blue, SomethingElse<T> } into {0x0, 0x1, validPtr}
00:24:57 <shachaf> kmc: Ah, makes sense, I suppose.
00:25:16 <elliott> kmc: have you convinced them to make their syntax less wack yet
00:25:45 <shachaf> what's wack about their syntax
00:26:10 <kmc> shachaf: yeah a runtime check of /proc/sys/vm/mmap_min_addr
00:26:59 <kmc> elliott: it's not special cased by name, but by structure
00:27:20 <shachaf> kmc: you can just require the bottom page not to be used in rust programs
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00:27:29 <kmc> so types isomorphic to Option also get it
00:27:30 <kmc> shachaf: true
00:27:32 <shachaf> then you can go up to 4096-enums "good enough 4 me"
00:27:54 <kmc> fsvo "require", you can't enforce it when a C program calls a Rust library
00:28:02 <kmc> or even the other way round really
00:28:59 <shachaf> Hmm, aren't pointer values in the bottom page often considered invalid in C programs for some other reason?
00:30:13 <kmc> many C programs are designed this way
00:30:30 <kmc> I don't know what the spec says, other than that the numeric literal "0" gives you a NULL pointer whose use in various ways is UB
00:30:40 <kmc> it might not even be represented the same way as an integer zero, of course
00:31:19 <Fiora> if( !x ) has to be the same as if( x == NULL ), right?
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00:32:31 <Fiora> I thought NULL had to compare as false...
00:32:42 <Fiora> like, NULL isn't necessarily 0, but it has to compare equal to 0
00:32:58 <shachaf> (My "No?" was addressed to katla, not Fiora.)
00:33:01 <kmc> "not zero but another number of the same name"
00:33:33 <Fiora> I thought I was responding to katla
00:33:43 <kmc> secretly, everyone was responding to Bike
00:33:58 <shachaf> we're getting a serious Bike infestation in here
00:34:06 <shachaf> they're doubling every few minutes
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00:34:18 <Bike> Only the one true Bike shall stand
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00:42:05 <ion> Unicode seems to have “DIRECT CURRENT SYMBOL FORM TWO” and no other forms. Theother one is called “AC CURRENT” instead of, say, “ALTERNATING CURRENT SYMBOL”.
00:43:01 <kmc> http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn27/
00:44:22 <Bike> that doesn't include it oh no
00:44:45 <Bike> i love how many of them are bad transliterations of non-IE languages
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00:46:16 <Bike> which reminds me, is anyone here as annoyed as me (level: "mildly chuffed") that news organizations can never agree on how to transliterate Arabic or Persian or anything
00:46:36 <shachaf> Well, that's hardly unique to news organizations.
00:46:51 <Bike> I keep seeing Morsy and thinking Morrissey
00:47:11 <Phantom__Hoover> is it as bad as irish "man just throw some i's in there, also some h's while we're at it" orthography
00:47:27 <Bike> don't they at least usually agree on how many i's to throw in
00:47:56 <shachaf> kmc knows what happens when you throw too many 'i's into one letter
00:47:57 <Phantom__Hoover> no (i guess i'm talking about, like, broader goidelic names here)
00:49:29 <Bike> i admit i know shit all about irish
00:50:07 <Bike> anyway the fact that news organizations do it is important because: they're the ones i'm immediately annoyed at
00:50:31 <Phantom__Hoover> according to wp there was also a spelling reform which included such highlights as beirbhiughadh => beiriú
00:51:10 <Phantom__Hoover> so like i can only assume the bh, gh and dh were just there to fuck with people
00:52:11 <Bike> i think the worst individual transliteration cases i can think of though are the name of the mongolian conqueror, and the name of the former president of Libya
00:53:32 <ion> Did you mean: bear hug edh, beiried, bear birth, beer buddha
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00:54:52 <Bike> sure, if you want to use the old fashioned transliteration
00:54:55 <kmc> Bike: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5365283/regular-expression-to-search-for-gadaffi
00:54:57 <Bike> i've actually seen dschinghis in print
00:55:17 <Bike> yeah that's good
00:55:41 <Bike> My history textbook called him Chinggis. Maybe we could just go with Temujin
00:56:11 <Fiora> "dschinghis" seems very weird too
00:56:23 <Fiora> kmc: our professor actually introduced regular expressions to us with that one
00:56:26 <Fiora> literally not kidding XD
00:56:29 <Bike> Genghis Khan's name is spelled in variety of ways in different languages such as English Chinghiz, Chinghis, and Chingiz, Chinese: 成吉思汗; pinyin: Chéngjísī Hán, Turkic: Cengiz Han, Çingiz Xan, Çingiz Han, Chingizxon, Çıñğız Xan, Chengez Khan, Chinggis Khan, Chinggis Xaan, Chingis Khan, Jenghis Khan, Chinggis Qan, Djingis Kahn, Russian: Чингисхан (Čingiskhan) or Чингиз-хан (Čingiz-khan), etc
00:56:44 <kmc> Fiora: haha
00:57:00 <Fiora> or maybe it was something similar
00:57:19 <elliott> doesn't genghis khan's wikipedia article open with like ten names
00:57:24 <Bike> Fiora: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dschingis_Khan it seems to be pretty standard in German
00:57:41 <Bike> Djengis in Afrikaans, oh man, i need to look through these now.
00:57:51 <Fiora> I guess it feels like it's extra consonants?
00:57:59 <ion> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dschinghis_Khan
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00:58:25 <Bike> Xenxis, in... I don't know this language
00:58:45 <kmc> language x
00:58:58 <Bike> one of the billion languages of spain, right
00:59:03 <kmc> misspelt austrian
00:59:19 <kmc> didn't kill enough people
00:59:19 <Bike> it's not really descriptive of the pronunciation, I think
00:59:23 <Bike> it's more of a "ch" sound at the start
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00:59:36 <Bike> and i ean it's a transliteration from what, the 18th century? it's gotta be shit
00:59:42 <Fiora> I think people like to pronounce "ge" like in... "get"?
00:59:50 <Fiora> but it's more like "tsingis"
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01:11:27 <Bike> what the fuck is this
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01:11:32 <Bike> is this machine generated
01:12:00 <kmc> more like zalgokuil
01:12:07 <Bike> it sounds like a barcelonian failing to pronounce Dungan
01:12:20 <nooodl> ps give me something else to translate into ithkuil
01:12:25 <nooodl> it was actually a nice adventure
01:12:27 <Bike> lord's prayer?
01:12:31 <nooodl> what no thatd take a month
01:12:47 <nooodl> like, a 3-4 word sentence kinda thing, something cute
01:13:09 <Bike> Schleicher's fable?
01:13:12 <elliott> nooodl: how about "enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity"
01:13:23 <nooodl> ps verbs have cases in ithkuil but the online guide doesn't tell you how to use them...
01:13:36 <elliott> you have to pronounce it and upload it though!!
01:13:50 <nooodl> my ithkuil pronunciation is probably "subpar"
01:14:02 <Bike> Efter foondin the Mongol Empire an being proclaimed "Genghis Khan", he startit the Mongol invasions that woud ultimately result in the conquest o maist o Eurasie.
01:14:42 <Bike> Mony o these invasions also resultit in lairge-scale slaughter o the local populations an ar no viewed positively in these parts o the warld today.
01:14:46 <elliott> i mean, you could literally run a simple filter over the english wikipedia to get the same results
01:15:16 <Bike> yeah if they want to have their own language more power to 'em
01:15:21 <Bike> i still think it's funny to see
01:15:21 <elliott> http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer
01:15:33 <Phantom__Hoover> (ulster scots is even more cultural etc., in that it's basically the result of a game of linguistic one-upmanship with irish)
01:16:03 <Bike> wait, is ulster scots what they pretend to speak in northern ireland, or
01:16:38 <elliott> http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#OUTRAGED oh my god
01:16:44 <nooodl> The Ithkuil equivalent to a subordinate clause is called a "case-frame."
01:16:45 <Phantom__Hoover> except that being in ulster there's a bunch of sectarian politics involved
01:16:48 <Bike> oh, they're what you call people americans call "Scots-Irish"
01:16:51 <Bike> your name is way better than ours
01:17:10 <Bike> elliott: what the hecks
01:17:14 <nooodl> A'v ne'er unnerstuid ootrage aboot Scots projects like this Wikipedia.
01:17:20 <Bike> i don't know what "jaxie" is
01:17:34 <elliott> Is this the real Scots language or are you just putting a sort of traditional highlander accent on and spelling words as they sound...I mean is there a dictionary or something which can prove these words are real?
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01:18:10 <Bike> COTTISH PEOPLE SPEAK ENGLISH, NOT THIS SHIT PICTURED ON THIS SITE!!! wrote some random guy from Texas
01:18:50 <elliott> i like the quoting of the "UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS"
01:18:57 <elliott> scots wikipedia: highly serious
01:18:58 <nooodl> there's a wikipedia in west-vlaams: http://vls.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorblad
01:19:14 <Bike> because he talks funny?
01:19:23 <Bike> (i don't know if he talks funny)
01:19:38 <Phantom__Hoover> because he writes his characters with these egregious scottish accents
01:19:50 <elliott> "THE PROBLEM IS THAT THIS IS JUST FRACTURED ENGLISH, WITH WORDS BEING WRITTEN AS THEY SOUND TO SOME PEOPLE, AND IS NOT AN ACTUAL LANGUAGE!"
01:19:50 <Bike> «Ulster Scots, the local dialect of Lowland Scots, which has, since the 1980s, also been called 'Ullans', a portmanteau neologism popularised by the physician, amateur historian and politician Dr Ian Adamson,[15] merging Ulster and Lallans - the Scots for Lowlands[16] - but also an acronym for "Ulster-Scots language in literature and native speech"» awesome
01:19:58 <elliott> unfortuantely the scots have yet to realise this
01:20:05 <oerjan> "No, we get it. Feel free to read other parts of the internet that are solely in English. There's quite a lot of it. Come back when you've finished that off, and we'll talk."
01:20:25 <Phantom__Hoover> i mean it's like writing a book set in kent and having everyone talking about how they're getting in the caah
01:20:31 <nooodl> and also in limburgs... http://li.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veurblaad
01:20:41 <nooodl> why are there multiple dutch dialect wikipedias
01:20:55 <elliott> there's wikipedias for the two norwegian languages too
01:21:14 <Bike> haha drawing a distinction
01:21:38 <Bike> also isn't bokmal and the other thing, like, written
01:21:50 <Bike> imo written language is too complicated *series of hand gestures
01:21:51 <elliott> iirc the nynorsk one is depressing
01:22:08 <nooodl> small wikipedias are the most depressing thing in the world
01:22:11 <Bike> «As a result of the competing influences of English and Scots, varieties of Ulster Scots can be described as 'more English' or 'more Scots'»
01:22:14 <elliott> it's trying really hard but there's just not enough care on the planet for a less-popular dialect of norwegian
01:22:35 <oerjan> elliott: last i checked, the nynorsk wikipedia even has some articles with subpages in the even more radical høgnorsk form
01:22:54 <oerjan> means "high norwegian" of course :P
01:23:09 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Høgnorsk seems like it's less radical?
01:23:19 <Bike> what about like... what do saami people speak
01:23:22 <Bike> i have no idea
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01:23:48 <oerjan> elliott: hm i meant radical in the sense of even further from what most people use
01:24:02 <oerjan> but i guess that is also extremely conservative
01:24:41 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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01:25:18 <Phantom__Hoover> Bike, have you reached the part where it was mostly made up to get a unionist alternative to irish's protected language status (n.b. my sources in this matter are not exactly dispassionate)
01:25:51 <oerjan> <Bike> also isn't bokmal and the other thing, like, written <-- of course. the current fashion for _speech_ is to use nearly unnormalized dialect.
01:25:55 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: it's in the intro.
01:26:11 <Bike> it's recognized by the UK under the EU's language thing though, huh
01:26:20 <elliott> oerjan: when i come to trondheim you have to explain norway to me.
01:26:23 <nooodl> i vote finnish for cutest language
01:26:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: what: not found
01:26:44 <oerjan> Bike: there are three official saami languages in norway, although northern saami is far larger than the others.
01:26:51 <Bike> gosh that's a lot
01:27:07 <Bike> oh there's a word for spelling scots like that, kinda. eye dialect
01:27:17 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:This_is_the_cover_of_a_book_containing_the_Gospel_of_Luke_in_both_Ulster_Scots_and_the_1611_AV.png good filename
01:27:26 <oerjan> elliott: what do you mean, you think _i_ understand norway?
01:27:36 <elliott> oerjan: well I would hope so.
01:27:50 <nooodl> my favorite wikipedia filename is
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01:27:52 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thing.png
01:28:17 <Bike> that is definitely a thing.
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01:29:28 <Bike> Thành Cát Tư Hãn
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01:31:45 <oerjan> jix: you have your own company now?
01:32:55 <Bike> "Contemporary Mongolians clearly prefer Chinggis over Genghis, not only because it reflects Mongolian pronounciation more closely, but also because it matches the Cyrillic version, Чингис хаан"
01:32:55 <oerjan> jix: your "index!" needs expansion hth
01:33:11 <Bike> "The article is inconsitent in Temüjin vs Temujin. Which is correct?" *flips table*
01:33:55 <Bike> wow there's a frickin mongolian imperial defender in this talk page
01:34:21 <Bike> My name is Serge and i'm citizen of Ukraine (Ukrainian Rus), one of the states in the modern global cossack society that is society of cossacks, free people of the Earth.
01:34:32 <elliott> I read that as ukrainian bus
01:35:08 <Bike> i think this person is saying kazakhs are cossacks
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01:38:06 <Bike> «For example, Peter Holquist, a specialist of the conflict in the Don region, concludes that decossackization did not constitute an "open-ended program of genocide" but rather was a "ruthless" and "radical attempt to eliminate undesirable social groups," which showed Soviet regime's "dedication to social engineering."» somebody help me understand this
01:39:47 <Fiora> so it was "not genocide" but "a ruthless attempt to eliminate undesirable social groups"
01:40:09 <Bike> you can't just say the same thing twice man
01:40:17 <Fiora> "it's not murder, it's just intentionally killing someone"
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01:45:39 <oerjan> as long as we have clarified that.
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02:12:21 <tswett> :| Something's getting misinterpreted somewhere.
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02:14:31 <tswett> Sgeo_: hey, join the Desert Warriors Clan!
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02:23:14 <Sgeo_> I don't even know what a condition code is
02:24:16 <Sgeo_> "A pretodianship is a position that can be held by a party member". Are all Agoran offices pretodianships? If not, can pretodianships also be held by nonmembers?
02:24:33 <Sgeo_> It's kind of clear what was intended, but not clear that your wording expresses it unambiguously
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02:32:39 <tswett> Sgeo_: think that should be fixed, along with the editing error in Article 2, before the party is created?
02:34:53 * Sgeo_ hasn't looked at the rest that closely
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03:37:17 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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04:51:57 <Bike> `WELCOME ALTRION
04:51:59 <HackEgo> ALTRION: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
04:53:34 <Bike> IT'S HOT HERE TOO BUT PROBABLY NOT AS HOT
04:55:33 <ALTRION> I'M SORRY MY ENGLISH IS NOT GOOD BUT NOT BAD
04:55:58 <Bike> You're quite understandable. Maybe you should use lowercase letters, though.
04:56:39 <zzo38> You should use both uppercase and lowercase letters.
04:58:10 <shachaf> my english is simultaneously good and bad
04:58:14 <zzo38> (Some computers don't have lowercase, but this makes it difficult to use the MODE command, and won't access most webpages, gopher, and other internet protocols; however, most modern computers do have lowercase.)
04:58:55 <ALTRION> I use lowercase latters, okay
04:59:16 <Bike> well, anyway, what's up
05:00:43 <Bike> a chatroom, yeah
05:01:28 <ALTRION> this name is esoteric, what is esoteric???
05:01:55 <Bike> check the link in the welcome message?
05:02:48 <ALTRION> add my facebook okay : aldri_017@yahoo.co.id
05:04:07 <shachaf> copumpkin: I don't get it.
05:04:22 <copumpkin> I said hth, you said what, so I said hth, hth
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05:05:52 <zzo38> ALTRION: I don't use the Facebook, OK?
05:08:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
05:09:19 <zzo38> Some of people in here are from other countries.
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05:40:08 <shachaf> I still don't get it, but whatever.
05:40:37 <copumpkin> there was nothing to get! I was referencing your hth stint for no reason whatsoever and being obnoxious about it
05:40:51 <shachaf> What does hth even have to do with me?
05:41:01 <copumpkin> you were using it all over the place for a while
05:41:40 * shachaf repeats earlier sentiment.
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06:25:50 <zzo38> I think the Turing sequent calculus I made up can be used for nondeterministic Turing machines too.
06:28:35 <zzo38> However it is also possible for there to be no rule (not even halting), in the one I made.
06:29:11 <zzo38> You win if it halts, lose if there is no rule, and draw if it doesn't halt. If it is nondeterministic, then the win/lose/draw outcome will not be predetermined.
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07:09:20 <zzo38> Whether any mathematicians find this useful, I don't know.
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08:14:31 <jix> no I don't have my own company
08:14:51 <jix> jixco.de => jix' code
08:15:07 <jix> (and I happen to be in germany so .de is the right tld anyway)
08:18:09 <zzo38> That is good, then.
08:28:28 <fizzie> "Jix, Inc." would have a nice ring to it.
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08:46:28 <kmc> today i ate at http://www.sunflowersf.com/ which has the best website
08:48:51 <fizzie> The other day I ate at http://www.kabuki.fi/kabuki.html whose website is also pretty good; last news is from 2009, and there's a prominent red-border notice about it being closed "Sunday, August 5th", except this year's August 5th is a Monday, suggesting that it's probably about last year.
08:49:03 <fizzie> It's a bit more "designy", however.
08:49:54 <shachaf> kmc: That's a good website.
08:50:19 <shachaf> It could be improved by including HTML menus.
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11:53:08 <HackEgo> neena: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> the fact that the word 'sigmoid' means s-shaped despite the fact that neither form of the letter sigma is s-shaped
12:09:00 <neena> Hello. I am only lurking
12:11:09 <olsner> I guess they consider 's' a form of sigma
12:12:09 <olsner> but that's boring... I like the idea that someone wanted a proper fancy name for s-shaped and just had no clue what a sigma actually looks like
12:12:54 <ion> Final sigma: ς
12:13:00 <ion> (in Greek)
12:13:42 <ion> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sigma_uc_lc.svg
12:15:02 <olsner> looks like it says Eos
12:16:23 <fizzie> I once had a LaTeX document that used the symbol $\sigma_\varsigma$ for a thing. Then I talked about it in an email, and had to write σ_ς.
12:16:38 <fizzie> It was changed to something like a single uppercase latin letter, later on.
12:17:07 <elliott> fizzie: important: do you acknowledge the immense superiority of \varepsilon over \epsilon
12:20:44 <fizzie> I have somewhat similar feelings when it comes to \varphi over \phi, but that might be just personal preference, since the loopier \varphi is how I was taught to write it.
12:22:09 <fizzie> It's the proper Greek letter, instead of some silly "math symbol" phi.
12:23:07 <olsner> what's the difference between the var-prefixed and normal name?
12:23:52 <fizzie> The var-prefixed is presumably a "variant form" of some sort.
12:24:04 <fizzie> Like the "final sigma" for \varsigma, and the loopy phi for \varphi.
12:24:41 <elliott> oh, I thought it stood for "variable"
12:24:48 <olsner> varsigma varies depending on context or something?
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12:24:54 <elliott> like you were meant to use \varepsilon for variables but \epsilon for... constants?? functions??
12:25:26 <fizzie> I have just *assumed* the "variant" meaning of "var"; I'unno.
12:25:57 <fizzie> Also \varepsilon is the more rounded "flipped 3"-style epsilon, as opposed to \epsilon's "c and - overtyped" solution.
12:26:23 <nooodl> isn't \epsilon used for empty strings sometimes?
12:27:14 <fizzie> Yes, though I've seen \varepsilon as the empty string too.
12:27:24 <fizzie> (It might've not been a TeX-derived document at all.)
12:29:27 <Deewiant> http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007doc/#epsilon
12:29:30 <fizzie> Best ideas: Use final sigma and stigma for two different meanings -- ς and ϛ are *so different*.
12:30:45 <fizzie> (That's U+03C2 GREEK SMALL LETTER FINAL SIGMA and U+03DB GREEK SMALL LETTER STIGMA, I hope.)
12:30:48 <nooodl> Deewiant, yikes. that has them the other way around
12:31:03 <nooodl> same for phi and varphi
12:31:55 <nooodl> on a related note: i've never seen \vartheta (the swirly latex one) used anywhere
12:32:09 <nooodl> angles are usually just \theta, and honestly, what else do you call theta
12:32:17 <fizzie> I guess it's because the "default" for "them" is the regular Greek letter use, and the "variant" is the "mathy" one.
12:32:47 <fizzie> That's what I've always assumed, as I said, like, right after you joined.
12:33:15 <fizzie> Though "variant" is what Deewiant's link says, too, so I guess they've assumed so too.
12:33:38 <fizzie> And I remember seeing \vartheta somewhere, but I have no recollection what it was for.
12:36:40 <fizzie> Oh, right, of course -- the Jacobi theta function: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theta_function
12:37:23 <Phantom_Hoover> possibly handwritten, although god knows who'd write it that way
12:43:50 <fizzie> More than one people seem to be using ϑ for mean.
12:44:10 <fizzie> Or I guess as their go-to "I need a Greek letter and don't have an obvious choice" letter.
12:44:49 <Koen__> I write it kinda like that
12:45:01 <Koen__> except with a little extra bar on the left
12:45:14 <ion> The most secure data cryption program in the World http://kryptochef.net/indexh2e.htm
12:45:48 <fizzie> I think I remember KRYPTO.
12:48:50 <fizzie> The proof of 256 being "full bits" is impressive.
12:50:57 <fizzie> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/06/the_doghouse_kr.html -- oh, from here.
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12:58:00 <fizzie> (The author takes part in the confersation few (hundred) screens down.)
13:02:25 -!- yiyus has joined.
13:03:30 <fizzie> (I like the bit where he proves almost all existing hashing algorithms are broken, because they generate nonzero outputs for the empty input. His own, LBV5DG, of course isn't broken that way -- "it doesn't work with nothing, how should it.")
13:04:04 <fizzie> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/06/the_doghouse_kr.html#c185757 is I think a direct link to that comment.
13:04:22 <fizzie> (These are some random commenter's English translations of his German postings from elsewhere.)
13:05:18 <ion> wat http://kryptochef.net/KRYPTOCHEF%20Newsletter%20eng.htm
13:09:11 <fizzie> Yes, I believe he has been badly wronged by the German government, or some such thing.
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13:11:11 <fizzie> "These data programs immediately recognize the password is wrong when it is wrong. How can the program before the actual data decryption. That says it all out on such programs."
13:11:49 <olsner> fungot: How can the program before the actual data decryption?
13:11:49 <fungot> olsner: the fnord concept stems from the use that the catholic church and most media. so the teacher says, " one made up for that
13:12:25 <fizzie> fungot: You make about as much sense as KRYPTOCHEF.
13:12:25 <fungot> fizzie: you must be a good idea, counting on that i have that was supoused to work,
13:13:08 <olsner> is it still horribly difficult to add fungot styles?
13:13:09 <fungot> olsner: away a sec. the siemens mobile toolkit thing has the api classes as a fnord is a diaresis?
13:13:39 <fizzie> I don't think it has been horribly difficult?
13:13:45 <fizzie> It's as difficult as it has been, however.
13:14:22 <fizzie> That means "involves, like, a dozen commands", assuming a suitably formatted dataset.
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13:33:05 <ion> :-D http://www.edepot.com/baseencryption.html
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13:36:22 <boily> ion: «As secure as OTP». yeah, right.
13:37:14 <fizzie> ion: Are you doing some sort of a crypto-kook tour or what?
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14:33:53 <boily> why are there still new ed versions?
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00:03:57 <oerjan> <boily> so yeah. who has moved lately? <-- i have moved about 4 km southeast hth
00:04:09 <elliott> are you still in trondheim
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00:09:41 <Bike> Poll: How long ago is "ancient"
00:11:07 <kmc> July 6, 1189
00:12:23 <Fiora> long enough ago that I don't remember it
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00:15:39 <oerjan> elliott: i believe i'm still within city limits, yes
00:15:58 <Bike> that poll sucked.
00:16:27 <elliott> oerjan: can I have directions for when I visit
00:20:55 <oerjan> elliott: http://goo.gl/maps/SMmWk hth
00:21:39 <Koen__> is that a map of a crop?
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00:32:56 <oerjan> Koen__: it's a cropped map of a crop hth
00:33:30 <Koen__> you live next to the beach though
00:34:12 <oerjan> i'm afraid much of that beach is also changing into apartments hth
00:34:45 <Koen__> well I guess it's a good news for the people who are gonna move into those appartments
00:35:18 <Koen__> thoug according to that map, if you have just moved 4km southeast... you used to live in the sea?
00:35:55 <oerjan> well _approximately_ southeast.
00:35:59 <elliott> I always knew oerjan was a mermaid
00:36:11 <elliott> there was just something fishy about him this whole time.
00:38:00 <oerjan> http://goo.gl/maps/2Whbx
00:38:36 <elliott> don't I get at least a swat for that pun?
00:39:10 <elliott> ah, oerjan lives on the roof.
00:39:57 * lambdabot throws some pointy lambdas at elliott
00:40:32 <Gracenotes> shiba are just so cute. http://i.imgur.com/VKT21lx.png
00:42:01 <shachaf> I didn't say you were not nice.
00:42:36 <oerjan> <Fiora> aren't any coordinates approximate? like how many sigfigs are necessary to no longer be approximate <-- the exact point has to be inside your body hth
00:44:01 <Gracenotes> I don't want any points inside of my body
00:44:58 <elliott> it's ok copumpkin, I still like you.
00:45:14 * copumpkin hugs elliott and gives shachaf a dirty look while doing so
00:45:29 <Fiora> I wonder if GPS is accurate enough for that.
00:45:33 <Gracenotes> just because you like copumpkin doesn't mean you have to like CT, btw
00:45:47 <copumpkin> which CT are we talking about here?
00:46:26 <shachaf> That's the kind of think I'm talking about.
00:46:31 <Gracenotes> I think 'Connecticut' would be less offensive than 'category theory' in this context
00:46:50 <Gracenotes> offending several million people vs. possibly hundreds
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00:48:34 <elliott> how is it any different from a copumpkin hug then? <--- burn & zing & snap
00:49:20 * Fiora hugs elliott just to hug elliott
00:49:49 <shachaf> this channel is discriminating against me
00:50:27 * Fiora hugs shachaf too, okay? :<
00:50:56 <shachaf> does that even mean anything
00:51:07 <shachaf> i can feel the reluctance :'(
00:51:52 <Fiora> I'm sorry ._. I just won't do anything next time...
00:52:04 <shachaf> Fiora: You were fine! It was a joke.
00:52:42 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
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00:55:11 <shachaf> history's worst mass-murderer
00:56:26 <Bike> hetty sure is a character.
00:56:42 <shachaf> How do you write ^-1 in Unicode?
00:57:49 <Bike> ⁻¹ not good enough for you huh
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01:01:53 <elliott> kmc: so have you convinced them to make the rust syntax less ugly yet.....
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01:11:46 <kmc> no i haven't
01:11:52 <kmc> someone was arguing a lot about semicolons today in #rust
01:19:12 <shachaf> kmc: what about lexical syntax of comments
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01:21:48 <Sgeo_> "This may seem like a sneaky attempt to trick developers, but this behavior is actually specified in HTML5[2]. The navigator.product property must be Gecko and navigator.appName should be either Netscape or something more specific. Strange recommendations, but Internet Explorer 11 follows them."
01:22:43 <Sgeo_> "Must return either the string "Netscape" or the full name of the browser, e.g. "Mellblom Browsernator".
01:25:39 <Sgeo_> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14573881/why-the-javascript-navigator-appname-returns-netscape-for-safari-firefox-and-ch
01:26:29 <oerjan> so has anyone created a Mellblom Browsernator yet
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01:36:21 <Bike> so does anyone know how to make kernel modules stop being terrible. or at least how i can get their versions to learn that my version is actually a DLL from 1997.
01:37:44 <mnoqy> no im pretty sure thats just that dang ol eternal mystery again
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01:39:26 <Sgeo_> Oh, what I pasted wasn't wrong, I just misread
01:40:25 <Gracenotes> "How do I turn this human back on again?"
01:40:34 <Gracenotes> "You can't, Android Friend. You killed him."
01:40:48 <Gracenotes> later Android Friend acquires a taste for blood etc.
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01:53:22 <kmc> what's this about dlls
01:53:41 <kmc> shachaf: oh, one interesting thing is that /*! foo bar */ is sugar for #[doc("foo bar")] or so
01:54:21 <kmc> the latter is an example of an attribute
01:55:02 <kmc> attributes seem cool to me, I guess they are really no different from __attribute__((foo)) or {-# FOO #-} but the syntax is less hackish, being designed in from the beginning
01:55:11 <kmc> and they have a standard sort of key-value syntax
01:58:34 <shachaf> well, {-# #-} is "designed in"
01:58:57 <shachaf> well, maybe not entirely so, since it's clearly made to be compatible with comments
01:59:31 <shachaf> san francisco, tomorrow, evening-ish?
02:00:15 <shachaf> i might go to sf earlier in the day
02:00:25 <kmc> shachaf: it's not in haskell 98!!!
02:00:33 <shachaf> kmc: it's in 2010, at least
02:00:44 <shachaf> http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/pragmas.html
02:00:47 <Gracenotes> shachaf: I expect I will be joining you, probably
02:01:08 <shachaf> i wish they'd introduce a one-line --# FOO syntax
02:01:48 <kmc> we will probably meet somewhere in the Mission or SoMa
02:01:53 <kmc> I live at 26th and Bryant
02:02:05 <kmc> but we might be watching fireworks from mozilla office at 2 Harrison
02:02:11 <kmc> but likely not?
02:02:15 <kmc> anyway shachaf has my phone number
02:02:29 <Gracenotes> no, mozilla will be overful of people already?
02:02:43 <Gracenotes> they are not free as in free-fireworks-viewing?
02:02:44 <elliott> though I do not have kmc's phone number
02:02:45 <kmc> Gracenotes: they're doing a lottery to see who can go
02:02:54 <kmc> and have not sent out results yet
02:03:10 <shachaf> Is it a small office that lots of people want to go to or something?
02:03:20 <Gracenotes> How about first-come-first-serve, get there 2 hours early. that will be fun.
02:03:57 <shachaf> mozilla fireworx, the new web browser written in rust
02:04:16 <kmc> shachaf: it's a pretty large office but they say it's unsafe to have more than 100 people on the roof deck
02:05:33 <elliott> I can't help shake the feeling that this some elaborate hazing ritual on kmc
02:06:00 <elliott> "the ol' roof deck fireworks lottery"
02:09:56 <Gracenotes> I hope Mozilla employees and friends of Mozilla employees don't do anything dumb like have illicit substances
02:10:02 <Gracenotes> they would not be a fun party, in that case
02:10:21 <kmc> i don't understand
02:10:37 <Gracenotes> well, oh, or SF police just might not care, too.
02:10:39 <kmc> are you seriously going to be upset if people are smoking weed around you
02:10:54 <kmc> SF police could not possibly give less of a shit about people smoking weed
02:10:59 <Gracenotes> kmc: not that upset relatively speaking
02:11:17 <kmc> being upset about not liking the smell of smoke or something is reasonable
02:11:32 <shachaf> it is a somewhat difficult smell to avoid in sf :'(
02:11:37 <kmc> and it is polite of people to smoke outdoors / otherwise away from people who mind
02:11:48 <Gracenotes> I mean, if you want good examples of being not observing proper drug-smoking etiquette, just go to a music festival
02:11:50 <kmc> but if you're very much against weed-smoking in general then, uh, you probably won't have a good time hanging out with me and my friends
02:12:30 <shachaf> kmc: i was in Weed, CA once
02:12:41 <elliott> i'm against smoking weeds because you're not meant to just smoke random weeds from your garden......... try some drugs instead
02:13:30 <shachaf> elliott: are drugs like drugz?
02:14:11 <Gracenotes> we need an PSA t-shirt saying "I'm high on Haskell"
02:14:31 <elliott> ok so my july 4th looks like this
02:14:32 <kmc> Gracenotes: no, but on a holiday that is largely about looking at pretty explosions, it is safe to assume some weed will be smoked
02:14:37 <elliott> trondheim -> san francisco -> ???
02:14:42 <elliott> or maybe sf comes before trondheim
02:14:50 <elliott> does anyone else want me to visit
02:15:03 <Bike> are we having our antarctica trip
02:15:14 <kmc> why trondheim
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02:15:53 <shachaf> what's oerjan's approximate body weigh
02:16:45 <elliott> Bike: how close would you say you are to san francisco
02:17:19 <Bike> let me see if i can "pull a Fiora" for you
02:17:55 <mnoqy> what's a fiora and how do you pull it
02:19:08 <Bike> apparently i don't know
02:19:24 <Bike> google says a drive would take ten hours, 38 minutes
02:19:32 <Bike> or ten hours, 41 minutes in present traffic, thanks
02:19:37 <elliott> ok but what if I have wings.
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02:19:45 <shachaf> it would be about 16 hours from where i lived in washington
02:19:58 <Bike> how fast do you fly exactly
02:20:02 <shachaf> or maybe 24 hours if you stop to sleep et c
02:20:02 <Bike> are you offering to like carry me
02:20:11 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: 670
02:20:21 <elliott> thats how much i love you Bike
02:20:29 <Bike> pretty far imo
02:20:30 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: way farther
02:20:38 <Bike> are you trying to like triangulate me
02:20:55 <Bike> ok well it's 44 hours.
02:21:00 <Bike> or, in current traffic, 44 hours.
02:21:17 <elliott> i dont think disatnces that long even exist
02:21:29 <Bike> british people, am i right
02:21:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm planning to just use two and discard the one that's in the sea
02:21:41 <Bike> you could just like, ask
02:22:00 <Bike> says where i'm from not where i am!
02:22:03 <Bike> oh hey HackEgo is fixed.
02:22:08 <Bike> guess san francisco got my note.
02:22:14 <shachaf> i drove from portland to california once :'(
02:22:25 <elliott> `addquote <shachaf> Hmm, is an Electronic Signature in a PDF file a thing? <shachaf> How do they work? <zzo38> [1] Yes. [2] It doesn't.
02:22:28 <Bike> i did that too, imo it sucked.
02:22:29 <HackEgo> 1066) <shachaf> Hmm, is an Electronic Signature in a PDF file a thing? <shachaf> How do they work? <zzo38> [1] Yes. [2] It doesn't.
02:22:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover gets to readd his quote himself
02:23:01 <Bike> "Take the Interstate 84 E exit toward Ogden/Salt Lake, 589 mi" these directions are great
02:23:13 <shachaf> kmc: ok the plan is for Gracenotes and me to take the train to sf tomorrow and then meet y'all somewhere in soma/mission
02:23:21 <Bike> Keep left at the fork, follow signs for I-80 E/Cheyenne and merge onto I-80 E
02:23:22 <Bike> for 1008 miles
02:23:49 <Bike> wow it's recommending toll roads
02:23:59 <shachaf> Bike: there's an option for no tolls
02:24:02 <elliott> how many walses is 1008 miles
02:24:23 <Bike> the radius of the earth is apparently 3,959 miles
02:24:24 <shachaf> @google 1008 miles in walses
02:24:27 <lambdabot> http://www.distancebetweencities.net/wales_me_and_west-van-lear_ky/
02:24:27 <lambdabot> Title: Distance between Wales, ME and West Van Lear, KY 1008 Miles / 1622 Km
02:25:22 <shachaf> elliott: imo you should come visit
02:25:22 <Bike> how wide is wales
02:25:38 <shachaf> elliott: use the copumpkin method of travel
02:25:45 <elliott> i already said i'm visiting tomorrow
02:25:59 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: everything in the US is named after something in the isles, yes
02:26:11 <Bike> anyway this map makes it look like wales is about the size of massachusetts
02:26:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: the: not found
02:26:21 <Bike> so, 1008 miles is like..................... i'm gonna say a hundred waleses at least.
02:27:14 <Bike> yeah i think so
02:28:26 <Bike> oh " It is about 274 km (170 mi) north–south and 97 km (60 mi) east–west"
02:28:28 <elliott> imagine leaving wales and being like
02:28:40 <elliott> let's name this place that is definitely far better than wales, after wales
02:28:45 <Bike> wait that was dumb
02:28:55 <Bike> exacty 16.8 waleses
02:29:51 <ion> Space wales. Falling toward the planet over which they happened to come into existence.
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02:30:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: can there not be two incomparably great evils in the world
02:30:45 <shachaf> why would you hate scotland
02:30:47 <kmc> shachaf: sgtm
02:30:52 <Bike> "We could not calculate directions between Moscow, Russia and Anadyr, Chukotka Autonomous Okrug, Russia." google maps disappoints me
02:31:18 <Bike> "We could not calculate directions between Moscow, Russia and Beijing, China." oh come on! there's a train
02:31:48 <elliott> Bike: can you ask it whether there's a ferry from newcastle to uh what was it, bergen
02:31:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, sadly they have fixed the bug where ferries are considered zero distance for foot directions
02:31:49 <shachaf> kmc: so you should call me or something when you know concrete plans, probably
02:31:52 <ion> Google Maps should make a Soviet Russia joke when it can’t figure out a route in Russia.
02:32:06 <shachaf> anyway /me vanishes for a bit
02:32:27 <Phantom_Hoover> which meant that if you asked for directions between any two sufficiently distant points in the british mainland it would take you across the irish sea at least twice
02:32:27 <Gracenotes> or just send a global notice on all of freenode
02:32:37 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: awesome
02:32:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i loved that
02:33:14 <kmc> shachaf: sounds good
02:33:14 <Phantom_Hoover> i once asked for directions from john o'groats to land's end
02:33:20 <kmc> how about you call/text me when you arrive in sf
02:33:26 <kmc> and i can reply with my coördinates
02:33:41 <Bike> wow, it actually can give you directions from moscow to birobidzhan
02:33:51 <tswett> Ooh. 2 + 3 = 1 * 5 and 2 * 3 = 1 + 5.
02:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> the route went through all 4 UK countries, the republic, the isle of man, and france
02:34:00 <tswett> Pretty sure I just discovered the greatest mathematical theorem ever.
02:34:04 <Bike> the instructions consist of "take this highway for 99 hours" but still
02:34:41 <elliott> Bike: come on how do I get to norway
02:34:57 <elliott> I know you're thinking well why would you want to but some of our less fortunate friends live there
02:35:26 <Bike> ok ok i'm done wrestling with russia let me see
02:35:46 <zzo38> tswett: O, you found out things like that. I don't think it is "the greatest mathematical theorem ever"; it is just something you notice. Others notice other things too, not only in mathematics. A while ago I noticed that the initial letters of the first four astrological signs are the same as the initial letters of DNA.
02:35:50 <Bike> first let me see if it can do newcastle to Birobidzhan
02:35:52 <Bike> oh my god, it can.
02:35:53 <Gracenotes> tswett: just find distinct factors of numbers with identical sums hth
02:36:12 <Bike> 7125 miles, 132 hours of driving
02:36:36 <Bike> ok so: you mean bergen norway right
02:36:45 <Bike> the answer is, it has you drive.
02:37:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hpmordate: not found
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02:37:42 <Bike> through the chunnel, and then a ferry (!!!!!) from larvik to hirtshals.
02:38:17 <elliott> Bike: i mean trondheim norway
02:38:24 <elliott> bergen is just where the ferry used to go
02:38:37 <Bike> yeah basically the same
02:38:41 <Bike> except you go norther
02:38:48 <elliott> ok but i don't have a car.
02:38:56 <Bike> also this takes 29 hours
02:39:03 <Bike> so, probably should leave like yesterday?
02:39:45 <elliott> that's ok, Fiora has the time travel thing sorted out.
02:39:58 <Bike> but seriously, this thing can give you driving directions from hexham to Birobidzhan, that is cool as hell imo.
02:40:19 <elliott> it's impressive that there is even a way to get to not-hexham from hexham
02:40:36 <elliott> cant get there from here, as they say
02:41:16 <Bike> shit yes it does hexham to thailand
02:41:31 <Bike> "This route has tolls. This route includes a car transport."
02:41:47 <Bike> also you have to drive through iran.
02:42:37 <Bike> "Pass by Zubair Traders and Electronics (on the left in 0.3 mi)" this is the best shit
02:42:44 <zzo38> I had idea of some programming language for Magic: the Gathering cards. One feature is that the printout is different than the input; for example, replacing ~ with the card's name, displaying mana symbols, making reminder text italic, and changing around some of the special programming symbols into printout format (including hiding things if necessary).
02:43:08 <Bike> elliott: http://goo.gl/maps/lKISo
02:43:25 <elliott> ummmm that's not a picture
02:43:27 <Bike> Elliott's Journey
02:43:55 <elliott> i really like how it talks about like individual roundabouts
02:44:03 <Bike> yes it's great
02:44:13 <Bike> you will pass so-and-so petrol station, in waziristan
02:44:15 <zzo38> For example, "Draw =3 cards." means the same as "Draw 3 cards." but prints as "Draw three cards."
02:44:31 <Bike> "Driving directions to Cape Town, South Africa. This route crosses through multiple countries."
02:44:39 <Bike> i christen this route "imperialism"
02:44:42 <elliott> Pass by ГРАДСКО САОБРАЋАЈНО ПРЕДУЗЕЋЕ "БЕОГРАД" - САОБРАЋАЈНИ ПОГОН КОСМАЈ (on the right in 3.8 mi)
02:45:18 <Bike> hm yes has you driving through dr congo
02:45:41 <elliott> so you realise i have to travel this route sometime in my life now right
02:45:53 <Bike> do you need to go to bangkok
02:46:00 <zzo38> Plurals of subtypes can be indicated by "=s" such as "Destroy all Wall=s."
02:46:11 <zzo38> What other ideas do you have about things like this?
02:46:26 <zzo38> Comments are in parentheses.
02:46:59 <zzo38> Other punctuation has other purposes.
02:47:08 <Gracenotes> It would take you 100 days to walk without stopping
02:47:09 <Bike> jesus you can plot to /jakarta/
02:47:43 <elliott> Pass by CENTRAL BANK OF INDIA
02:47:47 <Bike> pretty much just trying to get the longest routes possible atm
02:47:57 <Bike> this one's 249 hours, 10,289 mi
02:48:23 <Gracenotes> so if you walked for 6.6 hours a day, it would take you a full year
02:48:32 <Bike> oh there's a ferry from singapore to indonesia. why did i not think of that.
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02:50:11 <elliott> Bike: We could not calculate directions between Hexham, Northumberland, UK and Antarctica.
02:50:45 <Bike> elliott: it can do hexham to dili though.
02:51:16 <Bike> 340 hour drive
02:51:52 <oerjan> tswett: 2 + 2 = 2 * 2 hth
02:51:55 <elliott> We could not calculate directions between Hexham, Northumberland, UK and Tokyo, Japan.
02:52:50 <elliott> Bike: hexham to serbia = success
02:53:04 <elliott> serbia isn't where i was thinking of
02:53:10 <elliott> oh my god I've forgotten what it's called
02:53:33 <zzo38> Gracenotes: Yes, kind of like that; I meant that it has markup used to reformat for printing, although the computer can also execute it as a program.
02:54:35 <elliott> that is the question nobody can answer, Gracenotes
02:54:40 <Gracenotes> zzo38: is this to do simulation-y stuff?
02:54:53 <zzo38> Gracenotes: What is "simulation-y stuff"?
02:54:57 <Gracenotes> presumably the standard libraries ofsuch a language might encode the rules of Magic
02:54:58 <elliott> Bike: ok seriously, what's the place that's like russia but worse called.
02:55:11 <elliott> that is literally the best description I have.
02:55:17 <Gracenotes> zzo38: like, statistical analysis of various decks
02:56:23 <zzo38> Gracenotes: Yes, that is what I mean; the standard libraries include rules of Magic. But I don't really mean statistical analysis (you can still do that, but you don't need to parse the card text as a program to do so); I mean to implement the game in computer.
03:00:33 <zzo38> You would have further syntax for specifying that something is a card name, and so on.
03:03:58 <zzo38> There could be a syntax <|> where the text before | is a program and after | is a comment; only the comment will print (and the <|> won't print). We could also have [] to embed Haskell codes, or whatever it is.
03:04:38 <zzo38> Use {} to delimit mana symbols and other symbols.
03:04:39 <oerjan> <elliott> Bike: ok seriously, what's the place that's like russia but worse called. <-- belarus?
03:04:58 <elliott> it's like, in russia. you know. thing
03:06:28 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/o0EQIlV.png help. they're on to me
03:06:33 <elliott> oerjan: yes, that. not serbia
03:07:25 <oerjan> that's probably a picture of Bryggen (Bergen world heritage site)
03:09:41 <oerjan> only remaining hanseatic league office, or something like that
03:10:59 <zzo38> The other thing to do is that ~ and ~~ both mean a reference to itself (even if the text containing the tilde is being applied to a different object, although if it is copied, the text will refer to the copy), but prints as the name of the card. If the name of the card contains a comma, then ~~ will omit the comma and everything that comes after it.
03:12:10 <zzo38> (So there are many syntaxes to mean the same thing; what other programming languages also do the same thing and in a similar way?)
03:17:21 <Bike> siberia is like
03:18:13 <Bike> elliott: btw that Birobidzhan place? EAST OF SIBERIA BRO
03:19:18 <elliott> geography is too hard when I'm this tired, Bike.
03:21:38 <Bike> where'd you think a place called Birobidzhan was gonna be
03:46:14 <shachaf> elliott: did you ever finish inventing n-dimensional fenceposts
03:47:12 <shachaf> kmc: http://contemplatecode.blogspot.com/2013/07/haskell-weekly-news-issue-272.html
04:06:54 <oerjan> hm i just did https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Esoteric_programming_language&curid=53398&diff=562623568&oldid=562606940 and i've come to think about whether there are any other, disjoint communities of note. didn't there use to be quite a bit of stuff in japanese, which might mean there's a whole disjoint community as well...
04:09:26 <elliott> we need jsvine to finish that article so we can have more citations on wikipedia
04:12:07 <oerjan> i try to google translate https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/難解プログラミング言語 and google tells me the address is invalid :(
04:12:34 <elliott> you think they'd get that stuff right for a translation tool
04:13:32 <shachaf> well i used the google translate built into chromium
04:13:57 <shachaf> i like these descriptions of languages
04:14:03 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: Japanese esolang & obfuscation community is vibrant (to me), and it is more or less disjoint
04:14:53 <oerjan> _somehow_ i'd got a :443 port into there, it worked when i removed it.
04:14:55 <shachaf> Befunge self-change possible two-dimensional array source code
04:15:13 <shachaf> Lazy K in a pure functional language, rather than the syntax for defining a new function, built-in function does not exist only three
04:15:14 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: so i thought the english wikipedia should have a link to it
04:15:37 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: I think there is no central point in Japanese community though
04:16:21 <lifthrasiir> many activities occur in hatena diaries (Japanese's equvialent to LJs, or similar) of interested people
04:16:51 <shachaf> fungot: you should invent a programming language
04:16:51 <fungot> shachaf: but big bucks are for it. if it's the code, forcer?... by clog? cmeme does the logging.
04:17:11 <shachaf> fungot: go for the big bucks
04:17:11 <fungot> shachaf: okay, maybe someone will rip the eventual dvd subtitles... otherwise it works just as well?
04:17:37 <lifthrasiir> also note that the community itself is smaller, but they have managed to make esolang and obfuscation (specifically code golfing) to a general pastime of Japanese programmers somehow
04:18:35 <elliott> lifthrasiir: it seems like it overlaps significantly with golf in japan
04:18:41 <elliott> to a greater extent than in the west
04:18:45 <elliott> but i don't know how true this is
04:19:09 <lifthrasiir> elliott: yes, code golfing is a lot popular in Japan than in the west (I think)
04:19:38 <lifthrasiir> and some of code golfers happen to be interested in esolangs
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04:20:43 <lifthrasiir> I haven't seen such unexpected popularity in Korea
04:21:48 <lifthrasiir> (popularity, is of course relative, and we all know most programmers don't know even their existence, but golfing is relatively popular in Japan than in the west...)
04:25:18 <elliott> i think any programming culture which has these kind of oddities at the forefront is pretty great
04:34:00 <shachaf> Bike: oh _Mathematics Made Difficult_ is good
04:34:28 <Fiora> is there golfing with assembly, like, writing the shortest assembly program in bytes? I guess demos are a little like that
04:34:57 <shachaf> There is also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superoptimization
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04:35:26 <Bike> it doesn't count in assembly since it might actually be useful.
04:36:00 <shachaf> Fiora: imo we should play x86 golf
04:36:18 <Fiora> I don't think it's actually useful
04:36:24 <Fiora> like, you can do totally silly things that are really slow
04:36:55 <shachaf> There are always extreme cases.
04:37:04 <Fiora> but that's the fun part! doing silly things
04:37:27 <shachaf> and then it's called being confusing
04:38:37 <shachaf> OK, I guess I'll fix lens instead.
04:41:21 <tswett> zzo38: Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer... HOLY SHIT
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04:41:36 <tswett> They're in the wrong order, though. Everyone knows the order is GCAT, not ATGC.
04:42:06 <zzo38> I didn't know there is an order of the DNA.
04:47:11 <tswett> Unrelated: I like how there's some consensus about what the most important mathematical concept is.
04:48:02 <shachaf> there's a lot of consensus about what the easiest mathematical concept is, too
04:48:27 <tswett> Hm. Lemme try to think what I think the easiest mathematical concept is.
04:48:58 <tswett> I'm gonna say... the contrapositive of the substitution principle. If two things differ in some way, then they are not the same thing.
04:49:09 <Bike> leibniz equality?
04:50:43 <shachaf> Bike: help you're not even in #haskell
04:50:50 <tswett> Hm. The Leibniz equality reminds me of a certain philosophical argument that there should be no uncountable sets.
04:50:55 <Bike> why would i be in #haskell.
04:51:33 <shachaf> because ion is talking about leibniz equality in #haskell
04:51:44 <tswett> Uncountable proper classes are okay, but there should be no uncountable sets. The idea is that given two different uncountable sets, it may be impossible to distinguish between them even given an infinite amount of time.
04:51:47 <Bike> ok but that's some weird typery i don't really care about.
04:52:02 <tswett> And if two things are impossible to distinguish, they should not be considered different.
04:52:08 <tswett> So, uncountable sets should not be admitted.
04:52:21 <Bike> tswett: sounds............. constructive
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05:09:15 <oerjan> well i still don't know if there's a way to get a pointer to the Japanese community into wikipedia, but at least i found the KEMURI language to add to our wiki.
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05:17:34 <oerjan> i wonder which IE designer had the bright idea of excluding https links from the _users own log_...
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05:53:01 <ion> It's Not About The Nail http://youtu.be/-4EDhdAHrOg
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06:24:39 <oerjan> ion: and sometimes it really _isn't_ about the nail but everyone insists it is.
06:25:40 <oerjan> or maybe i just am that lady, sigh.
06:26:05 <fizzie> Sometimes the nail is just a penis. I mean a nail.
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07:23:00 <myname> i don't even get lambdabot to work with irc :(
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07:24:15 <oerjan> > "but i work just fine!"
07:25:12 <myname> do you have any idea what the parameters of the irc-connect function actually are?
07:25:58 <myname> i assume network name, network address, port, user name, ???, ???
07:26:20 <myname> the last two may be passwort and join message or the like, but i'm pretty unsure
07:29:32 <oerjan> myname: you forgot the name and bloodtype of your firstborn
07:29:51 <myname> oerjan: that's because there is no firstborn
07:30:10 <oerjan> ah. well then you cannot run lambdabot sorry
07:31:33 <myname> i found nothing that looks like a documentation, though
07:31:47 <lambdabot> irc-connect tag host portnum nickname userinfo. connect to an irc server
07:32:02 <myname> "yeah, there is this online.rc file, but we won't tell you what it looks like"
07:32:23 <shachaf> tag, hostname, port, nick, user
07:32:25 <myname> how do i set a server password?
07:32:39 <shachaf> My lambdabot came with an online.rc...
07:33:30 <shachaf> I guess ellimokus got rid of it.
07:33:32 <myname> i just threw out cabal install and got a dictionary with a bunch of binaries
07:33:51 <shachaf> Maybe try "cabal unpack lambdabot"
07:34:30 <myname> and then making the setup steps myself?
07:34:46 <myname> i really don't see the advantages, but well
07:35:09 <myname> if i can't provide a server password, it may be pretty useless for me nontheless
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07:38:21 <myname> in the unpacked online.rc is "password.rc" as a parameter of the irc-connect command, but i don't find password.rc ...
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07:54:29 <myname> oh dear, just looking at the code makes me crying blood
07:55:58 <myname> "how hard can it be to look at how to add a password"
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08:53:32 <kmc> shachaf: it was inevitable really
08:57:14 <ion> drugz https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1015321_10200452898865210_1550553282_o.jpg
08:57:57 <shachaf> help where did that s come from
09:02:17 <kmc> ion: do you have a link / translation?
09:03:03 <ion> It’s just a boring article about people using more cannabis, the image was the funny part.
09:03:24 <kmc> @ask zzo38 Are there TeX macros for typesetting Magic: the Gathering cards?
09:03:43 <kmc> ion: yeah so why is there a syringe
09:03:50 <kmc> someone is confused
09:03:57 <shachaf> kmc: http://repo.or.cz/w/TeXnicard.git
09:04:25 <kmc> btw if the article says: how many people in your fair country smoke weed, anyway
09:05:31 <shachaf> huh, zzo338 runs an irc server
09:06:07 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/zzo38-irc.txt
09:07:06 <ion> +HITLER sounds awsome.
09:07:14 <kmc> /join +HITLER
09:07:35 <kmc> what's a + channel anyway
09:08:05 <shachaf> These unmoderated channels work almost exactly the same as '#' channels, except nobody can obtain channel operator status on them. Some implementations seem to set the channel mode to '+nt' upon creation, however most implementations act as if modes +nt are set but don't announce them as being set.
09:08:17 <ion> kmc: The only numbers in the visible part of the article are about 132 drugz-related crimes in Central Ostrobothnia last year, 114 in the preceding year.
09:08:43 <shachaf> ion: if i drugz will i become a criminal
09:08:46 <kmc> is "having drugz" a drugz-related crime
09:09:53 <ion> kmc: I think so. The paragraph talks about “crimes related to the use and sales of cannabis”, which probably means “the use and sales of cannabis”.
09:10:08 <kmc> then kind of a bullshit metric imo
09:10:20 <shachaf> y'all should join me on zzo38computer.org
09:10:29 <kmc> is that the ICANN port for IRC?
09:10:39 <ion> irc 194/tcp
09:10:57 <kmc> (IANA? whoever)
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10:13:44 <ion> https://crypto.cat/ http://tobtu.com/decryptocat.php
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13:17:35 <Phantom_Hoover> for some reason dbelange has an urban dictionary entry
13:20:16 <fizzie> "buy zzo38 mugs & shirts" it is amuse
13:20:32 <fizzie> Sadly there are no statistics as to how many have been bought.
13:20:56 <fizzie> Did you know that: I have one too. (But it's not one I'm very proud of.)
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13:48:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i tried 'fizzie' but it just came up with the standard ridiculous sex act
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14:21:53 <fizzie> Yes, the standard ridiculous sex act is what I meant.
14:22:25 <fizzie> Also "The act of shoving Pop-Rocks (TM) into the male penis via the urethra. [add a video]" please don't add a video
14:34:29 <Deewiant> Why, would you be obliged to watch it because it depicts something named after you, or something?
14:34:56 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think that's a video the world needs to contain
15:02:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: Isn't that how it works? (But also what P_H said.)
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16:31:28 <nooodl> 8j0 ÷ 0j1 gives me 0J0.125. what the shit
16:33:24 <nooodl> oh it's still wrong... how do you mess up complex division, guy who made this
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16:34:49 <Bike> that's not even a real pun fuck you
16:35:20 <Bike> that wasn't a question!
16:35:24 <Bike> it was a statement< 1372972322 964856 :Gregor!~Gregor@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo hi
21:12:09 <oerjan> basically glogbot just gives up after some hours each day, it seems
21:12:33 <oerjan> (which you'd, like, expect if the disks are full i guess)
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21:23:55 <itsy> Bags packed ready for Silicon Dreams tomorrow :-)
21:24:15 * itsy hopes they're selling some cool stuff...
21:24:36 <oerjan> is that the electric sheep kind of dreams
21:26:10 <itsy> oerjan: http://www.silicondreams.org.uk no sign of electric sheep :-(
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22:41:58 <oerjan> dammit i think cabal is breaking because i named by new laptop's user "Ørjan"
22:42:29 <oerjan> it compiles everything fine and then gives invalid byte sequences on the final registrations
22:46:28 <elliott> surprising that they don't handle that, maybe there's an issue for it...
22:47:12 <oerjan> oh no the "new haskell script" shortcut from the file browser isn't there. hm maybe it was actually hugs that made that on my old laptop, way back.
22:48:17 <oerjan> elliott: of course if they _have_ fixed it, i probably cannot install the fixed version D:
22:49:20 <elliott> oerjan: sounds like an excellent time to install linux >:)
23:02:01 <oerjan> right after i get rid of this crippling loss of motivation to do anything involving yak shaving. (except agoran Yaks, they're cool.)
23:03:20 <elliott> clearly what I need to do is bring an ubuntu CD to trondheim.
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23:25:19 <Bike> i'm blanking on a clever way to compute x // 2 + x // 4 + x // 8 + ..., help
23:25:35 <Bike> if x = 2^n it's n-1 but that's all i got
23:26:47 <Bike> oh, i guess i can just iterate //2, that's something
23:27:26 <oerjan> what's // and how's its precedence
23:27:43 <Bike> integer division
23:27:58 <Bike> i forget the actual way you write it
23:29:31 <oerjan> presumably depends on language (haskell is `div` or `quot`)
23:29:53 <Bike> tryin' to be all mathy here donchaknow
23:29:58 <Bike> but like 15 // 2 = 7, 16 // 2 = 8, etc
23:30:10 <oerjan> in that case [ x / 2 ] is one way
23:30:35 <Bike> er, i'm guessing [] isn't iverson bracket
23:31:00 <oerjan> except _ideally_ without top horizontal part of brackets
23:31:28 <Bike> er, how's that wor.
23:31:32 <itsy> Bike wouldn't that give a similar result as multiplying by MAXINT-1 and taking the high word of the result? Which might be similar to computing 0-x.
23:32:15 <oerjan> itsy: i think you get trouble with the bits you want to cut off giving carry into the bits you want to keep
23:32:48 <Bike> well like, this(15) = 11 for instance
23:32:59 <Bike> also i'd kind of like to generalize it to bases other than two.
23:33:15 <elliott> oerjan: surely [...] is rounding
23:33:16 <oerjan> ...now you're just being difficult :P
23:33:29 <elliott> or alternatively, doesn't it have to be ceiling as well.
23:33:45 <Bike> well floor(15/2) isn't 11 anyway so i don't get what oerjan meant.
23:33:53 <oerjan> elliott: i vaguely thought it meant floor by default, but you always want
23:34:04 <oerjan> Bike: i mean 15 // 2 = floor (15 / 2)
23:34:05 <elliott> Bike: he meant for denoting integer division
23:34:33 <oerjan> *always want to cut off top or bottom for clarity
23:35:21 <HackEgo> maddock: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:35:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_and_ceiling_functions#Notation
23:35:54 <Bike> itsy: i'm not sure what you meant but (x * (2^n)-1) >> n doesn't work
23:36:16 <oerjan> Bike: what i'm thinking is this is sort of a summing of a triangle of bits
23:36:54 <oerjan> elliott: clearly you cannot consider gauss to be _wrong_ hth
23:36:57 <itsy> maybe start with y=1, result=0. If the right bit of x is set then result=result+y. Then shift x right. shift y left and add 1. Then repeat until x=0
23:37:31 <elliott> oerjan: pfft, what's gas but a load of hot air
23:37:54 <elliott> oerjan: kind of bizarre that APL lead to a change in common mathematical notation...
23:38:06 <elliott> for such simple operations
23:38:27 <Bike> well who uses floor and ceiling besides CS people anyway
23:38:34 <Bike> oerjan: btw i have no idea what triangle of bits means
23:38:47 <oerjan> Bike: oh now i see the confusion - the notation _was_ invented by iverson, but it's not what's called "iverson brackets" :P
23:39:02 <Bike> iverson brackets is [foo] = 1 if foo is true, 0 otherwise
23:39:08 <Bike> kinda useful but not like. related.
23:39:24 <elliott> I think Dijkstra liked those
23:39:35 <elliott> though he hated APL I guess
23:39:47 <Bike> dijkstra hated everything, though
23:39:55 <elliott> oh maybe it was Knuth who liked it
23:40:02 <Bike> oh yeah he uses it all the time
23:40:05 <elliott> Bike: yeah but he was cuddly on the inside.
23:40:25 <Bike> so are hedgehogs
23:43:42 <katla> Knuth uses it in his book
23:44:03 <katla> can you express the halting problem as an iversen bracket
23:44:22 <katla> maybe it would have to be two brackets nested
23:45:10 <Bike> H(x) = [x halts]
23:46:28 <katla> what i really wanted was an iverson bracket you cant give the value 0 or 1 to
23:53:06 <Bike> i can't give a value to [is {some set of matrices} mortal] :P
23:53:37 <katla> but that does have a value 0 or 1
23:53:40 <katla> even if we cant find it
23:54:00 <Bike> well an iverson bracket is defined to have a value of 0 or 1.
23:54:07 <Bike> that's just... how it's defined
23:55:00 <elliott> well X = [X = 0] can't be given a value.
23:55:08 <katla> I still think there's some non recursive X I could write [X] and argue that it cant be given as 0 or 1
23:55:50 <Bike> what's the difference between "does have a value [...] even if we cant find it" and "cant be given as 0 or 1"
23:55:52 <katla> and I think you can do it with 2 []'s but not 1
23:56:17 <elliott> I would assume that for any given P you can prove ~([P] <> 0 /\ [P] <> 1)
23:56:21 <katla> Bike i want an actual contradiction from assuming [X] = 0 or [X] = 1
23:56:34 <katla> elliott what if P includes iverson brackets too?
23:56:35 <Bike> well uh, elliott gave that
23:56:45 <elliott> and excluded middle gives [P] = 0 \/ [P] = 1 presumably
23:56:56 <Bike> oh, i thought you meant "recursive" like "computable"
23:56:58 <elliott> yeah, I don't actually know
23:57:06 <Bike> elliott's is just the liar paradox and there are nonrecursive liar paradoxes
23:57:34 <Bike> (quick, how do you do yields falsehood)
23:57:37 <elliott> like, I think the function [-] : Prop -> 2 existing is just equivalent to LEM?
23:58:05 <elliott> to go from that to LEM is easy, you just plug the proposition into the function and then you get either a proof of P or not P by the definition of [-].
23:58:19 <elliott> to go the other way, you define the function by casing on whether the proposition you're given is true or not.
00:05:33 <nooodl> [] aren't actually used in APL at all
00:05:48 <nooodl> well, they are, but they're used for indexing, not iverson brackets
00:06:35 <kmc> shachaf and Gracenotes are in my living room
00:09:40 <katla> i guess the iverson bracket is well defined :(
00:09:48 <katla> it annoys me that you cant break it
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00:10:43 <Bike> well it's well defined insofar as letting you put arbitrary propositions everywhere is well defined
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00:21:21 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel for hi people | [ WOMAN VOCALIZING ] ♪♪ [ MAN SPEAKING BACKWARDS ] | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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01:00:07 <nooodl> shachaf: is this the biggest #esoteric meetup yet??
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01:21:30 <kmc> hm i don't know where nooodl or quintopia lives
01:21:42 <elliott> turns out everyone in #esoteric lives in san francisco. spooky
01:22:42 <nooodl> later this month i might be quite close to hexham though... fsvo close (i'll be "in the uk")
01:26:58 <nooodl> if i end up going to hexham somehow it'd only be fitting not to visit anyone there
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01:29:33 <kmc> wheres taneb
01:32:17 <Bike> update on previous question: i found a really easy algorithm and i don't now how it works because i forgot
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02:00:38 * oerjan spots mysanthrop, myname's evil twin
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02:02:12 <kmc_> shachaf: shachaf!
02:02:22 * oerjan sees wikipedia lists some important anniversaries for today
02:03:50 <kmc_> today we celebrate america by drinixing beer and listening to canadian post-rock music
02:04:01 <kmc_> well i do anyway
02:04:10 <oerjan> i guess for you americans these anniversaries are tomorrow.
02:04:26 <kmc_> wait did services disappear
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02:05:56 <oerjan> chanserv seems to respond "No such nick/channel" to every command, including help :P
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02:48:11 <oerjan> oh wait duh, it's not chanserv responding, it's the server saying chanserv doesn't exist XD
02:49:22 <elliott> how am I going to ban everyone now??
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02:54:40 <elliott> kmc_: are you and shachaf talking over IRC while being in the same room
02:55:54 <oerjan> elliott: i was going to comment on that but then realized it was a mandatory geek ritual
02:57:10 <Bike> does it count as a ritual if it's just because you're dorks
02:57:58 <oerjan> elliott: hm this is getting serious, we need to ban Bike now but cannot
02:58:42 <Bike> hey i've done it too!!
02:58:45 <Bike> i'm an "insider" here
02:59:12 <oerjan> just go back into elliott's general queue then
03:00:22 * Fiora steals the top of elliott's queue
03:01:06 <elliott> congratulations, you have spared one person from the onslaught... at the end..... one person in #esoteric shall remain unbanned
03:01:14 <elliott> you may bet amongst yourselves as to who it is
03:01:25 <Bike> that's obvious, zzo38.
03:09:08 <Fiora> or I'll just occupy elliott forever with magical friendship beams
03:09:13 <Fiora> then he'll never ban anyone!
03:09:50 <Bike> yeah i'm no match for friendship beams sorry
03:09:54 <Fiora> Bike: useful tip! elliott is weak to friendship
03:10:06 * Bike writes in quest manual
03:10:30 <Fiora> so when you need to get past elliott, don't try to attack him, just ask nicely and offer to have nice long conversations with him! then just give him some cookies and go on your way
03:10:41 <Fiora> useful tip for final bosses
03:11:22 <elliott> looks like I gotta resign ops. will never get to ban anyone at this rate.
03:11:28 <Bike> fuck, cookies might be hard
03:11:36 <oerjan> elliott: it's ok you can still ban unfriendly people
03:11:56 <oerjan> not that i have any idea why anyone would want to do that.
03:12:37 <oerjan> Bike: the hardness can be balanced with chocolate hth
03:13:23 <oerjan> also, brits love stale cookies.
03:13:27 <Fiora> how about chocolate cookies?
03:13:31 <Fiora> chocolate fudge brownies?
03:13:37 <Fiora> with chocolate syrup and strawberries
03:14:44 <Bike> fiora is clearly a veteran of many battles
03:14:59 <elliott> whoever said we need a portmanteau bot is right.
03:15:16 <HackEgo> bal cadiffel fo in clemoricomiclet ia symparokip mcepapj lazcansori jambselle nehagelifiigmedinttaceldstricidamil annkoech ingie frivskelen twelmaban kleselix pellisphteci etu ime pels adcad calidenticelpe neptes handrinco glawa non chby irmullated duresticntre glethriewiverig igue sum mas alme manaecans probiletyburzenrized succs nlelon nits ston
03:15:45 <oerjan> mind you, they should have been portmanteaus in a real language.
03:15:46 <Bike> no, a bot to make a portmanteau given some words.
03:15:48 <Bike> keep up oerjan.
03:16:05 <oerjan> oh, a portmanbot, gotcha
03:16:27 <Bike> see, what if it was portmanbeaut? this is why it's necessary
03:16:35 <Bike> who wrote `thanks again? noodl? let's make him do it
03:16:49 <elliott> ideally if you said "foo, bar" it would portmanteau them automatically.
03:17:07 <elliott> then we could replace shachaf with it :P
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03:29:41 <Bike> somebody tell me how the series floor(x*b^-n) over n works.
03:30:35 <Bike> for positive n.
03:30:38 <Bike> it's important
03:31:59 <Bike> elliott hurry it up!
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03:32:31 <elliott> Bike: I told you! it works very well.
03:32:56 <Bike> your the fucking wurst
03:33:13 <Fiora> wurst? mmm sausage
03:36:45 <oerjan> Bike: it is decreasing hth
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03:39:35 <mastring> Here's a fun challenge. Can you write a program which prompts for the number of elements and then displays and output like: http://pastebin.com/bnziw40r
03:39:48 <mastring> The pattern is simple. First write one's(1) along the top for the number of elements, then write one's(1) down for number of elements - 1 and then back along the bottom for number of elements -2 and then back up again for number of elements - 3 and so on and so on...
03:40:10 <Bike> @oeis 1,2,4,6,10,12,16,18,22
03:40:12 <lambdabot> Primes minus 1.[1,2,4,6,10,12,16,18,22,28,30,36,40,42,46,52,58,60,66,70,72,7...
03:41:24 <Bike> mastring: i believe that is called a spiral. also
03:41:26 <Bike> `welcome mastring
03:41:28 <HackEgo> mastring: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:48:03 <mastring> Would be nice to see some esoteric solutions :)
03:51:11 <oerjan> it looks to me like a problem that _needs_ a mutable 2d array for the solution to be simple
03:51:29 <elliott> oerjan: don't tempt me to try and find a cute functional knot-tying solution
03:51:47 <oerjan> elliott: um, tempting to tempt you, there
03:52:51 <oerjan> hm perhaps you could calculate based on the center somehow
03:54:38 <oerjan> funge98 should be able to handle this, anyway.
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03:57:37 <oerjan> funge98 is good with 2d stuff, being a 2d language
03:58:08 <oerjan> one thing i'm thinking here is that everything except for the left edge is part of a pattern that can be extended infinitely outwards
03:58:51 <Bike> well, if it was more than 10 there'd be more empty columns right
03:59:38 <oerjan> what i mean is that logically you'd want 1's down that left edge instead of 0's
04:00:15 * Bike counts on fingers
04:01:22 <mastring> It looks simple until you look at it and then you realize you can't solve it the way you thought and then you think and think and think and wait a minute all I have to do is....This is a simple problem after all. ;P
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04:05:37 <oerjan> mastring: note that if you remove the left edge, then it's entirely symmetric between 0's and 1's if you rotate it 180 degrees
04:08:46 <mastring> Are you trying to solve it functionally? and the first implementation that came to mind was to rotate the permutations lexically:
04:08:56 <mastring> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/51836583/Screenshots/oh.png
04:09:10 <mastring> That way, an odd cardinality simply doesn't render.
04:09:20 <mastring> Just what I thought of then, idk :P
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04:11:47 <oerjan> well i'm thinking of a weirder way of building the n+1 case from the n one
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04:12:15 <oerjan> basically, rotate the matrix clockwise, then put a line of 1's on top and a line of 0's on the bottom (this ignores the left edge)
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04:15:36 <oerjan> hm this _would_ be possible in a knot-tying way, wouldn't it.
04:15:54 <oerjan> well, or recursive, anyway
04:16:36 * elliott is glad to have planted the seed in oerjan's mind
04:16:39 <Bike> ok well, i worked something out. sum of floor(x*b^-n) for positive n is (x - base b digital sum of x)/(b-1).
04:16:50 <Bike> floor is the worst clearly
04:17:16 <Bike> this is rather pointless since computing digital sum is hard anyway but still.
04:17:41 <oerjan> Bike: i wasn't really expecting a more efficient method than shifting and looping, here
04:20:07 <Bike> i'm just glad i worked out something resembling a fact, in the pursuit of something unrelated and also pointless
04:24:06 <oerjan> > let spiral 1 = ["1","0"]; spiral n = replicate n '1' : (transpose . reverse $ spiral (n-1)) ++ [replicate n '0'] in var . unlines $ spiral 5
04:24:07 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Data.Number.Symbolic....
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04:24:34 <oerjan> how dare you ruin my favorite text unescaper :(
04:24:44 <oerjan> > let spiral 1 = ["1","0"]; spiral n = replicate n '1' : (transpose . reverse $ spiral (n-1)) ++ [replicate n '0'] in text . unlines $ spiral 5
04:25:13 <elliott> 05:24:33 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Data.Number.Symbolic.var',
04:25:14 <elliott> 05:24:33 <lambdabot> imported from `Data.Number.Symbolic' at L.hs:82:1-27
04:25:16 <elliott> 05:24:33 <lambdabot> or `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.var',
04:25:18 <elliott> i guess probably the latter
04:25:20 <elliott> 05:24:33 <lambdabot> imported from `Debug.SimpleReflect' at L.hs:93:1-26
04:25:47 <oerjan> huh i think they both are useful for this purpose, although i _think_ the former used to be imported
04:25:54 <elliott> hm old lambdabot had - yes
04:26:05 <elliott> seems like the latter is more general...
04:26:06 <oerjan> the latter can be faked with fun ... :: Expr
04:26:45 <oerjan> mastring: anyway that's how you can do it functionally in haskell :)
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04:27:01 <elliott> I am tempted to import the latter because I can import the former module as S but would have a harder time coming up with a single-letter alias for the latter
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04:28:00 <elliott> -import Data.Number.Symbolic hiding (var)
04:28:01 <elliott> -import qualified Data.Number.Symbolic as Sym
04:28:01 <elliott> +import Data.Number.Symbolic
04:28:10 <elliott> (diff -u Pristine.hs .lambdabot/State/Pristine.hs)
04:28:18 <elliott> I guess I intended to do that but never actually put it in the actual file
04:29:15 <mastring> > let spiral 1 = ["1","0"]; spiral n = replicate n '1' : (transpose . reverse $ spiral (n-1)) ++ [replicate n '0'] in text . unlines $ spiral 10
04:29:50 <oerjan> that extra space on the first line is a lambdabot quirk
04:30:36 <mastring> oerjan: Would this work in ideone?
04:31:07 <oerjan> i assume so with a minor modification
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04:37:05 <oerjan> http://ideone.com/VGXllV
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05:14:59 <elliott> oerjan: ooh chanserv is back
05:19:44 <Sgeo_> "Warrgle is a combination of war or warrior and eagle. It may also involve warble, a sound a bird makes.
05:19:50 <Sgeo_> tswett_, are you a pokemon?
05:23:30 <Bike> does this mean i'm banned
05:23:54 <elliott> do you want it to mean that
05:24:01 <coppro> Sgeo_: i want to be a pokemon someday
05:24:10 <zzo38> What kind of pokemon?
05:24:11 <Bike> is that a trick question
05:24:17 <zzo38> I like to play pokemon card.
05:24:45 <Sgeo_> My question would have been better if tswett_ used his other nick here
05:24:51 <Sgeo_> well, one of his other nicks
05:25:19 <Sgeo_> I think tswett_ has as many nicks and names as Gregor has hats
05:35:27 <oerjan> he even has a nick that is a wiki admin, although i wouldn't be surprised if he is unable to log in to it
05:36:48 <oerjan> last used 25 february 2009
05:39:50 <oerjan> the bounded gaps of primes project seems to have slowed seriously down :(
05:40:34 <elliott> oerjan is all about the wiki admins now
05:40:52 <Bike> the one i linked before? yeah, well, they made like ten billion percent improvement first so w/e
05:40:57 <oerjan> i'm all about power totally corrupting, yes
05:41:41 <oerjan> yeah but up until a week ago they had something every day
05:41:42 <elliott> still waiting to hear back from Bike in re: whether he wants to be banned
05:41:57 <oerjan> these are tough decisions, elliott
05:42:17 <elliott> Bike: I could kick you if you want a taste of what it's like
05:42:29 <Bike> Sgeo_: I need some advice.
05:43:10 <Sgeo_> And are you sure I'm the best person to ask for advice?
05:44:06 <Bike> Yes. Do I want to be banned?
05:44:42 <Sgeo_> If you were a norn, I could attempt to peek in your brain to find out. Are you a norn?
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06:09:36 <HackEgo> YoNkIe: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
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06:23:08 <ion> k. https://twitter.com/ukhomeoffice/status/352408433506533377
06:23:43 <Bike> "@ukhomeoffice fyi you seem to have been hacked by the edl"
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06:29:06 <fizzie> "@ukhomeoffice you must have a harder example than finding them in the back of an Immigration Enforcement van?"
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06:29:48 <Bike> they have a whole bunch of tweets like that, the brits in my feed were yelling at them this morning :/
06:29:57 <Bike> by which i mean like last night? fuck time zones
06:31:03 <Fiora> ask elliott, he knows british time zones
06:31:07 <Fiora> and by knows, I mean
06:31:10 <Fiora> he sleeps through them
06:31:47 <elliott> if you sleep through a time zone do you come out on the other side
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06:32:21 <Bike> that explains why you're awake at seven am and have been for like twelve hours
06:32:51 <elliott> it's true, I've been awake at 7 am for like twelve hours.
06:33:03 <Taneb> help I just wrote a short blog post on how fmap for functions is (.) on my mainly fandom blog
06:33:28 <Bike> did you have a homestuck character explain it
06:33:32 <Taneb> for the past 12 hours
06:33:42 <Taneb> I had a sign advertising ice cream explain it
06:33:46 <Bike> well there's your problem
06:33:59 <Taneb> And I just joined 15 channels across 2 servers to say that and nothing else
06:34:03 <Bike> people aren't going to accept caleskellisms if they're not explained by a guy with horns!
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06:35:03 <Bike> so speaking of shit, are hypergeometric functions cool? signs point to hell yes
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07:22:27 <shachaf> Fiora: it's a shame you couldn't come
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07:23:09 <oerjan> funny, simon tatham's "single" puzzle becomes easier with larger board, because there are too many clues...
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07:34:53 <Taneb> Favourite low-ish quality video format for storing movies on SD cards?
07:36:06 <mnoqy> i was about to say flac
07:37:50 <elliott> HAVE WE BEEN USELESS ENOUGH YET????
07:39:02 <shachaf> elliott: today was drugz day in san francisco
07:43:01 <shachaf> mnoqy: drugz day is everyday
07:45:12 <shachaf> mnoqy: hey, you're in california
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08:40:39 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
08:41:51 <elliott> fizzie: what is the cycle limit these days?
08:43:30 <fizzie> The same hundred thousand, I believe.
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09:22:14 <ion> #especiallydrugz
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10:44:47 <fungot> shachaf: he said i should do
10:44:48 <elliott> shachaf meant the other bot, fizzie.
10:45:15 <shachaf> fungot: well tell him you don't do
10:45:16 <fungot> shachaf: ah right. i remember it doing some weird context-based stuff with
10:45:24 <fungot> shachaf: what i mean? riastradh ( i know, but when i go there; i should go
10:46:04 <shachaf> fungot: yes. you should go
10:46:04 <fungot> shachaf: in that case fnord mode are you using? the operational or denotational one? i can't
10:46:35 <shachaf> i guess fungot really can't
10:47:10 <shachaf> fungot, more like nofungot
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12:04:08 <fizzie> Huh, that's funny; a (Linux) box where 'cc' is not GCC. (It's the PGI compiler instead.)
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12:08:12 <HackEgo> ottianna: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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13:19:20 <ion> :-D http://heh.fi/tmp/gg-freenode.png
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15:11:36 <ion> `welcome Guest22624
15:11:38 <HackEgo> Guest22624: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:25:44 <ion> Get Girls to Talk to You http://youtu.be/if8hveMIQPM
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15:40:59 <fizzie> ion: Have you tried this advice?
15:41:13 <ion> I surely will. This advice is golden.
15:42:10 <fizzie> It sounds a bit work-intensive.
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15:49:11 <HackEgo> scorpo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:55:53 <zzo38> Are there any programming language where a variable can have multiple types where the same data is valid as all types simultaneously? (This isn't a struct, where you have different fields, or a union, where only one type is usually valid at once)
16:05:48 <Sgeo_> Could kind of fake it with Haskell
16:06:53 <Koen_> ion: hmmm I was half-listening to the whole thing and then suddenly "you reach in your pants and hum you pull your hum chewing-gum out and you hum put it in her mouth"
16:07:23 <scorpo> I suppose a sum type might be kind of close, or if you had subtyping that might be kind of close
16:07:34 <ion> More awesomeness from the same dude. http://youtu.be/iG_QDyHxrnQ http://youtu.be/Dkls0ciI8l0?t=1m
16:09:29 <elliott> zzo38: yes, any language with universal quantification
16:09:47 <elliott> you can view (forall a. ...) as the intersection of ... over all a (due to parametricity)
16:09:58 <Koen_> ion he's bringing another human being into this I'm scared
16:10:03 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, I suppose that does it, but I actually meant something else that I wasn't clear.
16:10:13 <mnoqy> did you mean 'intersection types'
16:10:15 <elliott> e.g. (forall a. a -> a) is the intersection of (() -> ()) and (Integer -> Integer) and (Maybe String -> Maybe String) and ..., which is just {id}
16:10:17 <Sgeo_> Ick I can't seem to get to my bank's website
16:10:30 <zzo38> Perhaps what I really meant is for the data to be valid for multiple enumerations simultaneously, rather than meaning multiple types.
16:10:58 <zzo38> (So I suppose it is only one type; I mean enumerations)
16:11:07 <Sgeo_> Uh... chase.com why u have mixed content?
16:12:08 <mnoqy> probably better to ask customer support than #esoteric
16:12:13 <scorpo> zzo38: what do you mean by multiple enumerations?
16:12:37 <elliott> pfft mnoqy hasn't ever had a bank what oes he know
16:12:52 <mnoqy> i have a bank!!!! i just dont use it
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16:14:41 <zzo38> scorpo: For example in C you might have: typedef enum { AAA, BBB, CCC } ABC; typedef enum { XXX, YYY } XY; and then having some variables that are for one enumeration only, but some where the same data means both enumerations at once (so CCC won't do).
16:21:53 <Sgeo_> Oh, is Guest13514 Gregor?
16:21:58 <Sgeo_> Guest13514, note other channel
16:22:27 <mnoqy> Guest13514 is variable
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16:25:41 <Sgeo_> I meant Guest22624
16:28:32 <ion> “and she is pretty hot, might I add” “and she was my cousin” “I’m just getting luckier and luckier with girls every day.”
16:33:42 <Koen_> ion: in that second video is that really the same guy? in the other videos he looked more oriental somehow
16:35:07 <ion> The first video is two years later than the cousin one.
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16:58:50 <Sgeo_> help I just ordered an incredibly expensive laptop
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17:00:41 <Sgeo_> Apparently trackpad isn't great, and it's a bit heavy, but other than that it's regarded well I think
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17:01:39 <Sgeo_> Oh and no touchscreen even though Windows 8
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17:03:12 <zzo38> I have once set up someone's new laptop computer, having Windows 8, I don't think it had a touchscreen either. But, it isn't needed; you can use a mouse, and the keyboard; most of the keyboard commands are the same as the older versions of Windows, and cmd.exe still works too, so it shouldn't be too much trouble to use, due to that.
17:03:32 <zzo38> (In fact that was the only reason I was able to figure it out)
17:04:42 <kmc> Sgeo_: which one?
17:04:49 <Sgeo_> Lenovo IdeaPad Y500
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17:05:25 <Sgeo_> Also paid for some warranty stuff on it >.>
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17:12:20 <kmc> `welcome matthiaskrgr
17:12:22 <HackEgo> matthiaskrgr: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:13:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: commands: not found
17:13:19 <kmc> it's not a very on-topic channel
17:13:38 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:13:39 <kmc> there are 3 inhabitants of (∀a. a -> a) in Haskell right?
17:13:57 <mnoqy> id, bottom, const bottom?
17:13:58 <kmc> ⊥, const ⊥, and id
17:14:45 <ion> kmc: and unsafeCoerce "hello"
17:14:46 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.7.0-umlbox #1 Wed Feb 13 23:30:40 UTC 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux
17:15:11 <kmc> it actually boots up a new virtualized Linux system for each command
17:15:18 <kmc> and then merges the filesystem changes using mercurial
17:15:37 <kmc> it's a no-op
17:16:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: help: not found
17:16:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome: not found
17:16:53 <kmc> `relcome matthiaskrgr
17:16:55 <HackEgo> matthiaskrgr: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:17:08 <kmc> `paste bin/relcome
17:17:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/relcome
17:17:17 <kmc> `paste bin/rainbow
17:17:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/rainbow
17:18:14 <Sgeo_> Is unsafeCoerce :: a -> a guaranteed to be id?
17:18:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 1: not found
17:19:05 <kmc> Sgeo_: GHC does make such a guarantee, yes
17:19:19 <kmc> it also guarantees that you can coerce between a newtype and the underlying type
17:19:28 <kmc> and from any type to Any and back
17:19:42 <kmc> and maybe other things
17:20:39 <ion> λ> unsafeCoerce (unsafeCoerce (succ :: Integer -> Integer) :: String -> String) (unsafeCoerce (42 :: Integer) :: String) :: Integer
17:21:57 <Sgeo_> I think I may have overspent
17:22:26 <kmc> you have a job
17:22:27 <kmc> you need a laptop
17:22:47 <Sgeo_> Yeah, but it doesn't need to be such an expensive laptop unless I want it for home too
17:24:01 <Sgeo_> Also, maybe I could have hoped that the reason the computers currently at my cubicle are so slow is just lack of memory, and bought some memory for them
17:29:45 <Sgeo_> My order was voided
17:30:37 <Bike> matthiaskrgr: use `run if you want shell
17:31:14 <Bike> `run echo 1 > file ; cat file
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17:51:37 <Sgeo_> May have typoed my street name
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18:42:52 <Sgeo_> I am still not used to Feedly
18:46:01 <Taneb> Sgeo_, I'm using bazqux
18:46:53 <Taneb> But also not free which is a bad thing
18:48:12 <Taneb> It pretty much convinced me to start paying for web software (even though I am still on the free trial)
18:48:16 <Taneb> I actually prefer it to Google Reader
18:50:28 <Sgeo_> The SMBC feed doesn't work sensibly for me in Feedly
18:55:25 <Sgeo_> Also screwed up the TDWTF feed
18:55:48 <zzo38> What other countries is the British ringback tone used in? Is it used in Germany?
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19:07:04 <zzo38> Graham Nelson's Z-machine standards document has many errors in it. Infocom's document also has many errors in it. Therefore, I have to use both.
19:07:11 <FireFly> Doesn't seem so, based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringback_tone#Ringback_tone_characteristics
19:09:46 <zzo38> O, then I wonder what happened. I called someone cellular phone, I believe they are in Germany, but I got the British tone. Is this due to non-direct flights?
19:11:22 <Taneb> I'm reading SMBC again
19:14:30 <Sgeo_> Be sure not to forget about voteys
19:14:42 <Sgeo_> If this is the first time you're learning of voteys, have fun
19:15:52 <Taneb> Oh, I know about voteys
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19:44:06 <Taneb> I shall entomb him in guilded halls
19:44:36 <Taneb> awww, the dead weaver was a mother of a small baby
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20:20:12 <ion> The Great Gatsby VFX http://vimeo.com/68451324
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21:46:14 <olsner> @tell oerjan You don't have any messages
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21:47:56 <oerjan> @tell elliott i think i'd like a command that works like /msg lambdabot @messages, except that it says _nothing_ in private or elsewhere if there are no messages.
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21:48:57 <oerjan> @tell elliott that way i think i can get them automatically in a window when i join, but without showing activity if there are none
21:49:14 <lambdabot> tell provides: tell ask messages messages-loud messages? clear-messages
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21:49:54 <shachaf> oerjan: The current behavior is that if you have any messages, lambdabot will /msg you about it as soon as you say anything at all.
21:50:05 <shachaf> So just saying anything has this behavior.
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21:50:37 <oerjan> i guess. except for the part where i have to say @messages in the query window too.
21:50:51 <shachaf> But that's only if you have messages.
21:51:11 <oerjan> hm, let me adjust my settings...
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21:53:44 <oerjan> oh fuck, why the hell does irssi show activity on just "Starting query in freenode with lambdabot"...
21:54:03 <FreeFull> You can change irssi's act settings
21:54:34 <Sgeo_> I have no idea if this is some kind of troll or a person who really feels like that, or how to deal with it http://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/1hpp4c/it_seems_inevitable_that_i_will_kill/
21:55:44 <oerjan> FreeFull: i'm sure you can, but irssi's help menus suck my lifeforce out of me when trying to figure things out
21:56:30 <zzo38> Then use a different documentation of irssi or a different program?
21:57:29 <FreeFull> oerjan: You probably want /set activity_hide_level something
21:58:14 <oerjan> yes. imagine if irssi actually had builtin _help_ on the set options.
21:59:20 <lambdabot> kmc asked 1d 12h 55m 56s ago: Are there TeX macros for typesetting Magic: the Gathering cards?
22:00:01 <zzo38> kmc: No, but I would make up a way to type spoilers of cards using it, if we could have the necessary font.
22:01:48 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v Guest13514.
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22:02:58 <oerjan> even the _online_ documentation for activity_hide_level doesn't link to what the levels _are_...
22:03:16 <olsner> maybe they are integers
22:03:23 <oerjan> which means i'm already two levels of yak shaving beyond my comfort zone.
22:03:59 <oerjan> and about one level from full rage.
22:04:28 * oerjan is not easy to please.
22:07:57 <oerjan> dammit i did the mistake of blathering before opening the logs again. they changed IE so that when i search for my nick, you can _only_ go one step forwards or backwards in the list of searches, so it is horrible to get to anywhere not near the beginning or end.
22:09:20 <oerjan> and of course no one actually mentioned my nick in the period i'm trying to search XD
22:10:24 <oerjan> it's like, when using IE 8 i had so many tiny convenience habits dependent on _precisely_ how it worked, and they've managed to remove a _dozen_ of them...
22:11:08 <oerjan> like, i actually used the address bar dropdown menu as a queue of which of my usual sites i'd remembered to visit recently :P
22:12:00 <oerjan> which depended on the exact rules for _what_ IE puts there and not, the fact that it's a long list and that it's organized in a queue fashion by last visit.
22:14:57 <oerjan> and then current IE has shortened the list to just 5 elements (you can see a 6th if you explicitly delete one of the visible ones), and no way to prevent an address you write from being added (admittedly the last part was really hacky even with IE 8)
22:15:44 <zzo38> Can those settings be changed?
22:15:49 <oerjan> and don't get me started on how the address line autocomplete works
22:15:56 <oerjan> zzo38: i have no idea.
22:16:26 <zzo38> Did you look in the registry setting?
22:16:30 <oerjan> also, i have no particular reason to believe any _other_ browser would care about doing things the ways it works.
22:17:22 <oerjan> zzo38: that would be essentially the equivalent of reading irssi's /set listing, except _worse_, no? so see above about yak shaving and rage.
22:18:03 <zzo38> Then modify some other one to do how you want. Often they have these things that some people like but is hardly ever had. For example, one feature I happen to like is a relative location bar, and I have not seen that anywhere.
22:18:08 <oerjan> (if i can even _find_ the registry. not that i've tried.)
22:19:52 <oerjan> zzo38: the problem is not really technical, but mental.
22:19:56 <zzo38> But, I don't know if anyone else would prefer a relative location bar, anyways. Do you know?
22:20:12 <zzo38> oerjan: O, yes, it always is mental, too.
22:20:19 <zzo38> This causes a lot of problems.
22:25:44 <oerjan> heh another problem which english speakers may not appreciate: when your OS is heavily nationalized, it's sometimes impossible to figure out the right english words for when you _do_ try to google problem-solving fora.
22:27:16 <oerjan> like, i know no:"fane" = en:"tab" because i've seen tabs discussed often enough on the internet, but this doesn't work for terms i've only seen in the nationalized programs/help on my own computer...
22:28:02 <oerjan> some things you can guess, like kontrolpanel -> control panel, but others are harder.
22:28:50 <oerjan> of course microsoft _do_ have nationalized online help pages, but they naturally don't go into the depth needed.
22:30:01 <olsner> hmm, is that fane as in the kind of flag?
22:30:39 <oerjan> i guess it's a weird term to choose, but i'm not sure there's a better one.
22:31:04 <olsner> just transliterating the word "tab" would probably be better
22:31:06 <oerjan> does "tab" mean anything?
22:31:40 <olsner> I think those divider things you have in binders are called tabs
22:31:55 <oerjan> hm i suppose. what are those in norwegian i wonder.
22:32:11 <oerjan> skilleark is the term that pops up
22:33:13 <olsner> tab: A small flap or strip of material attached to something, for holding, manipulation, identification, etc.
22:35:04 <oerjan> bah wiktionary lists only swedish, not norwegian :/
22:36:32 <oerjan> wikipedia's tab disambiguation page doesn't seem to _list_ the binder meaning. although heaps of others.
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22:43:26 <fizzie> "välilehti", lit. something like "between-leaf", from the binder meaning, is the official Finnish term for tab.
22:47:55 <kmc> btw Gracenotes, shachaf it was fun hanging out with you yesterday
22:48:10 <oerjan> my theory is they chose "fane" because norwegian doesn't actually _have_ a word for the archive meaning.
22:49:36 <fizzie> Hanging out? With #eoteric people? Is that even legal!
22:49:54 <olsner> of course it's not legal, but so weren't the drugs
22:50:41 <oerjan> or wait, i started looking at some sites selling the actual physical ones...
22:50:42 <FireFly> Wait, Gracenotes is in #esoteric? I've never noticed that..
22:51:06 <oerjan> i am being forced to conclude "fane" _is_ the technical term for them.
22:53:24 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe they've been renamed to that, after they chose it for the UI-y meaning.
22:55:49 <oerjan> that's disturbingly plausible.
22:59:21 <kmc> new game: writing C++ functions such that the mangled names spell amusing things
23:01:48 <oerjan> i wonder, way back in time, whether there were computers that tried hard to _keep_ a tcp connection open even if your network connection drops dead for half a second. seems like something you'd want to build into the protocol, really.
23:03:58 <oerjan> (inb4 <elliott> linux does hth)
23:04:24 <fizzie> My computer didn't have any trouble keeping TCP connections (to IRC servers) open over a dozen-or-so-seconds PPP hangup+redial+negotiation cycle, way back when I had to do that once every 30 minutes for pricing-related reasons.
23:07:01 <fizzie> (The phone company used to have a flat per-call fee for calls on weekends, and 17-05 on weekdays; then when the Internet started happening, they changed it so that the per-call fee covered only the first 30 minutes, and after that there was a per-minute fee, that was significantly higher than 1/30th of the per-call fee.)
23:08:10 <olsner> that was one of the most annoying things with mac when I had one, every tcp connection is force-closed immediately when your network cable pops out
23:08:38 <olsner> ... and the ethernet port was recessed so that the clip to hold the cable didn't work
23:09:37 <olsner> anyway, what usually keeps TCP connections open in situations like that is just TCP itself doing its thing
23:11:11 <fizzie> I think I did have to do the hangup in some other way than "kill and restart pppd", because I have a feeling bringing the interface down would in fact have killed connections.
23:20:54 <fizzie> That makes me wonder if NetworkManager is silly enough to spork off everything if the cable pops off. ("Normally" that wouldn't affect the configuration at all, but I know it keeps sniffing at link status.)
23:23:17 <olsner> to be fair, there could be an issue if you're on a trusted network, get reconnected to an untrusted one and restart sending data right away
23:34:20 <oerjan> hm the outside ip of my machine doesn't change with disconnection, at least.
23:43:34 <tswett> Ooh, linear logic apparently lets you handle arrays efficiently in a functional language.
23:44:17 <zzo38> It does? What is the way it does?
23:44:21 <tswett> Have a function of type Array that lets you create an array, and functions that let you copy and delete arrays.
23:44:47 <tswett> Then for setting, you can have a function of type (Array * index * value) -o Array, and for getting, you can have a function of type (Array * index) -o (Array, value).
23:45:16 <tswett> I guess you could do exactly the same thing in Haskell.
23:45:38 <tswett> But with this, the compiler knows that Arrays won't be copied or deleted except by using the "copy" and "delete" functions.
23:47:03 <zzo38> What is the comma going to do? It doesn't seem to be one of the operators of linear logic.
23:47:19 <tswett> Whoops, that was supposed to be an asterisk.
23:47:48 <tswett> Denoting multiplicative conjunction ("you have both things").
23:48:12 <zzo38> (There isn't an asterisk in linear logic either, but I see, you mean the "times" symbol (multiplication conjunction, like you waid).)
23:52:01 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> If this is the first time you're learning of voteys, have fun <-- argh what are voteys
23:53:17 <oerjan> oh. whew, i knew that.
23:53:29 <oerjan> wtf are they called voteys
23:53:40 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentometer ?
23:53:53 <shachaf> oerjan: they used to only be shown to people who voted for the comic
00:00:09 <tswett> You're welcome, S. H. A. C. H. Af.
00:06:16 <shachaf> Gracenotes: Do you understand the Eilbenberg-Moore category thing?
00:07:02 <Gracenotes> shachaf: I don't think I've seen those names in mah life
00:08:16 <nooodl> kmc, shachaf, Gracenotes: what did you guys end up doing
00:08:40 <shachaf> nooodl: first we got hi by greeting each other for a while
00:12:02 <tswett> I really like the symmetry linear logic would give the getChar and putChar functions: getChar :: RealWorld -o (RealWorld * Char), putChar :: (RealWorld * Char) -o RealWorld
00:12:33 <Bike> i hear realworld is satanic
00:12:44 <Gracenotes> though those types are isomorphic to what Haskell has
00:12:45 <tswett> In actual Haskell, yeah, I think so.
00:13:09 <shachaf> i saw a sign on a church which i thought said satan worship
00:13:13 <shachaf> but it actually said sunday worship
00:13:18 <tswett> Yeah, doesn't GHC have IO a = RealWorld -> (RealWorld, a) internally?
00:13:24 <tswett> Or something like that?
00:13:35 <shachaf> "something like that", sure.
00:13:37 <Gracenotes> RealWorld is unboxed and so is the tuple
00:13:48 <Bike> btw do people here use bessel functions. they seem cool. i like them
00:13:57 <shachaf> And also it's not RealWorld, it's State# RealWorld.
00:14:06 <shachaf> And it has nothing to do with the normal world-passing explanation of IO.
00:14:11 <Gracenotes> it's more like a low-level IO operation says "I will only give you back a real world when I'm done doing my thing, damnit"
00:14:12 <shachaf> It's just implementation trickery.
00:14:31 <shachaf> State# RealWorld fits in a zero-sized register.
00:14:35 <Bike> let me show you my bessels
00:14:46 <Gracenotes> for example, putChar will only give you back a () when it gets an Int, namely the one that's returned from a write syscall
00:14:58 <shachaf> Bike: hm where was the place i heard about Bessel functions
00:15:25 <tswett> So like "data IO a = IO (State# RealWorld -> (# State# RealWorld, a #))" or something?
00:15:49 <shachaf> imo ghci knows the exact definition (:i)
00:15:53 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you on drugs?
00:16:14 <shachaf> Anyway most things people say about this definition are false.
00:16:16 <tswett> Looks like yeah, it's exactly what I just said.
00:17:16 <tswett> shachaf: so does this mean that >>= for IO doesn't actually look like >>= for State, as one would think?
00:17:23 <Gracenotes> unIO :: IO a -> (State# RealWorld -> (# State# RealWorld, a #))
00:17:34 <Gracenotes> also: bindIO (IO m) k = IO $ \ s -> case m s of (# new_s, a #) -> unIO (k a) new_s
00:18:01 <tswett> That looks just like >>= for State, doesn't it?
00:18:16 <Gracenotes> and GHC.Types, newtype IO a = IO (State# RealWorld -> (# State# RealWorld, a #))
00:18:39 <shachaf> The only point of it is to tell the compiler about certain data dependencies etc. that it's not allowed to do certain involving.
00:19:10 <Bike> shachaf: btw: I don't know where the place you heard about bessels was??
00:23:55 <zzo38> No. You have to put zero
00:24:19 <tswett> scroll_count == scroll_count = scroll_count;
00:24:36 <shachaf> you don't tell me what i have to do!
00:24:43 <tswett> I assume that associates as (scroll_count == scroll_count) = scroll_count, which is invalid.
00:25:08 <Gracenotes> if you assume it associates the other way, it is true
00:25:20 <shachaf> Not if scroll_count is NaN.
00:25:42 <tswett> Don't you love values that aren't == to themselves...
00:26:11 <tswett> I'm kind of disappointed that NaN isn't == to itself even in Haskell.
00:26:46 <shachaf> undefined ain't == to itself neither.
00:26:57 <tswett> Yeah, but at least you don't get False.
00:28:00 <tswett> "norway" can be cast to an integer, can't it?
00:28:06 <Gracenotes> all of your statements are in the shachaf namespace
00:28:19 <Gracenotes> tswett: in C, you can write char c = 'norway';
00:29:12 <Gracenotes> or int c, if you like widening conversions
00:30:47 <olsner> uint48_t c = 'norway';
00:32:36 <oerjan> <Gracenotes> if you assume it associates the other way, it is true <-- i think it's undefined behavior hth
00:33:52 <Gracenotes> maybe a bit, maybe not as much in say C++0x (I don't recall if their new sequencing rules help here), but it's usually never unsafe to optimize 'x = x' to 'x'
00:34:25 <tswett> Is there really a uint48_t...
00:34:38 <olsner> no, but I think there could be
00:34:51 <olsner> and multichar literals could have that type
00:34:59 <tswett> The other day, I was trying to write some C in front of some other guy, and neither of us could remember whether it was uint16 or uint_16.
00:35:05 <tswett> (It is, of course, neither.)
00:35:13 <zzo38> Gracenotes: It might be unsafe if it is volatile, though, isn't it?
00:36:01 <Gracenotes> it will be undefined if it's not volatile and there's simultaneous modification/reading.
00:36:48 <tswett> Maybe there should be a uint<n>_t for all nonnegative integers <n>. Who knows when you might need a 333-bit integer?
00:37:06 <Gracenotes> if it is volatile, then it might be false.
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00:37:20 <Gracenotes> if only because there is a memory barrier automatically set up with read/write of a volatile.
00:37:32 <zzo38> tswett: I think LLVM has such a thing!
00:37:47 <tswett> zzo38: I'd be disappointed if it didn't.
00:37:48 <olsner> up to (iirc) 8Mbit integers
00:39:23 <tswett> Darn. I can think of a use for 38762521924-bit integers.
00:39:31 <shachaf> I wish C++ supported "void x;".
00:39:50 <zzo38> In GNU C you can create zero-length arrays.
00:39:54 <shachaf> void foo() { void x; x = bar(); return x; }
00:40:14 <zzo38> (Black-C, which is my own specification, inherits some of the features of GNU C, including zero-length arrays.)
00:40:49 <olsner> tswett: http://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#integer-type
00:41:09 <zzo38> And I think zero-length arrays is a useful and reasonable and logical feature to have.
00:41:35 <tswett> So what's the significance of the number 196882, anyway?
00:41:50 <zzo38> It would mostly be used for if you make a structure with an array of varying length at the end, although it can be used for some other purposes too.
00:42:14 <Gracenotes> I expect it could be optimized away, though
00:43:17 <Gracenotes> one of the versions of a language I implemented with project partner for a compilers course had, initially, the unfortunate property that the grammar did not allow function calls as statements; only as expressions.
00:43:25 <shachaf> GNU C already supports void foo() { return bar(); }
00:43:37 <shachaf> Does Black-C support that?
00:43:46 <Bike> what's that useful for?
00:43:46 <kmc> what's Black-C
00:43:50 <Gracenotes> so the only way you could call a void function was by declaring a void variable, which the grammar also forbade.
00:43:51 <tswett> shachaf: can you cast something to void in GNU C?
00:44:13 <kmc> ISO 9899-38
00:44:25 <shachaf> tswett: "(void) foo();" is valid ISO C, isn't it?
00:44:51 <zzo38> kmc: "Black-C" is some document I wrote. It is: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/black_c.txt
00:45:30 <zzo38> Do you think some of these things is reasonable things?
00:47:09 <kmc> happy Algerian Independence Day
00:47:20 <Bike> oh heh i forgot.
00:48:04 <shachaf> kmc: over in ##fiora we were discussing kmc hugz
00:49:11 <kmc> what about them
00:49:19 <zzo38> shachaf: O no, I didn't mention "void foo() { return bar(); }" although I probably don't need to mention it, but maybe I should.
00:49:43 <zzo38> (If you read it, then you can see what things it does have)
00:50:29 <HackEgo> 38762521924: 2 2 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 41 41
00:50:30 <kmc> rainbow laser jesus
00:50:54 <tswett> Oh look, it's a perfect square! I wonder what its square root is.
00:51:12 <kmc> whence this number
00:51:31 <tswett> I found its square root online, and then I found it by squaring its square root.
00:51:40 <kmc> shachaf: what about kmc hugz
00:54:41 <oerjan> tswett: ok but we still don't know its significance, right?
00:54:42 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:54:54 <tswett> If that's the exclusive "we", then that's correct.
00:55:28 <oerjan> well if we exclude enough people...
00:55:47 <tswett> There must be some set of people such that no person in the set is aware of the significance of that number!
00:56:19 <zzo38> Yes, the empty set, is one such set. There are probably others.
00:56:21 <oerjan> there might even be a way to prove that!
00:56:28 <oerjan> darn zzo38 ruining our joke
00:57:05 <shachaf> tell me a good fixed point theorem
00:57:12 <Gracenotes> but who are we to judge the relative worth of sets
00:57:26 <Bike> we, the measurers
00:57:33 <Bike> banach's is where it's at come on
00:57:33 <oerjan> oh the last google hit mentions the monster group
00:58:32 <oerjan> although the variation in hits is rather impressive.
00:58:38 <oerjan> i guess most numbers do that.
00:58:40 <Gracenotes> I'm partial to the baby monster group tho
00:59:19 <oerjan> oh 196883 gave something monster-related as the first hit
00:59:48 <tswett> That number isn't much better.
01:00:36 <oerjan> "Robert A. Wilson has found explicitly (with the aid of a computer) two 196882 by 196882 matrices (with elements in the field of order 2) which together generate the monster group; this is one dimension lower than the 196883-dimensional representation in characteristic 0."
01:01:43 <tswett> 196882 seems to be the best number so far.
01:02:28 <oerjan> i wonder if the large number of tiny prime factors for both 196882 and 196884 has some significance.
01:02:55 <oerjan> well i guess 1823 isn't very tiny.
01:03:50 <oerjan> shachaf: i am partial to the brouwer fixed-point theorem hth
01:04:24 <shachaf> i thought you were total :'(
01:04:55 <oerjan> just totalitarian, shachaf
01:07:42 <tswett> Hm. 3^10 * 109 + 2 = 23^5.
01:07:53 <tswett> Pretty sure this is the most important theorem in the überverse.
01:08:25 <tswett> (The überverse is the collection of everything, including at least one thing that is not in the überverse.)
01:09:27 <zzo38> tswett: O, so it also includes God (which, in turns, also includes the uberverse)? (or something like that; I don't know for sure)
01:09:29 <shachaf> Higgledy Piggledy / Oërjan Johansen / Likes Brouwer's Theorem / "hoping that helps"; // Secretly, though, he's a / Totalitarian / Undersea wizard king / Munching on kelps
01:12:50 <tswett> It definitely contains God, yes.
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01:17:19 <zzo38> Do you think a mobius strip is one sided, or do you think a mobius strip is two sided but that both sides are the same side?
01:17:21 <tswett> So for a = 2^19, b = 7153, and c = 3^12, we have d = 2*3*7153, or...
01:17:27 <dvorakbot> Note that .calc is deprecated, consider using .c
01:17:36 <Bike> I think words don't actually mean things help.
01:18:01 <tswett> Sure enough, c > d^(1+epsilon) for positive epsilon.
01:18:51 <shachaf> since when do we have a dvorakbot
01:19:21 <Gracenotes> it's old enough to have a deprecated command
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01:19:46 <tswett> $c log (3^12) / log 42918
01:20:46 <tswett> So despite its musical importance, this ABC triple isn't good enough for this list: http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~desmit/abc/index.php?set=2
01:24:10 <tswett> So wait. If a = 24 and b = 1000 and c = 1024, then we have d = 30, don't we? That'd make this an extremely high-quality triple.
01:24:29 <oerjan> shachaf: good poem tdh
01:24:40 <tswett> Oh, duh, they have to be coprime.
01:24:58 <tswett> So it's really a = 3, b = 125, c = 128.
01:25:40 <tswett> Apparently, the equality 3 + 125 = 128 was discovered by Benne de Weger in 1988.
01:25:59 <Bike> It's very useful, we should thank them.
01:27:09 <tswett> I know of three applications of this equality, two of them useful in music.
01:27:45 <tswett> The first is that three major thirds are approximately an octave. The second is that 3 decibels are approximately a doubling. The third is that a kilo- is approximately a kibi-.
01:44:18 <Bike> scrabble doesn't know "quine" :(
01:44:55 <Sgeo_> I need something to do for the next 17 minutes
01:45:00 <shachaf> Bike: it's a proper noun hth
01:45:12 <Bike> shachaf: like the kind of program.
01:45:21 <shachaf> no it's named after the person hth
01:45:26 <shachaf> it's not really a thing "sry"
01:45:51 <Sgeo_> Aren't there a lot of common nouns named after people?
01:46:36 <Koen_> yeah, we call that kind of words sgeos
01:47:08 <Sgeo_> bikes, for instance, were clearly named after Bike.
01:52:45 <oerjan> hoovers are named after Phantom_Hoover
01:53:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:00:25 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
02:44:15 <Bike> What's a nonlinear f such that f³ = id?
02:46:23 <ion> http://www.startrek.com/article/designing-the-romulan-dreadnought-warbirds https://encrypted.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=babylon%205%20shadows
02:47:36 <Bike> don't really care, just curious what it looks like. something easy like C would be nice i guess.
02:47:57 <coppro> well, what does "linear" mean on an arbitrary set?
02:48:20 <Bike> ok, the domain is a linear space.
02:49:21 <shachaf> Bike's shed is the wrong colowr.
02:49:31 <ion> Therefore a linear space is a vehicle.
02:49:46 <HackEgo> smlist 408: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
02:49:50 <HackEgo> smlist (409): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
02:49:51 <ion> Bikecurious
02:49:51 <coppro> Bike: using the axiom of choice, divide the real numbers into three sets of cardinality c, putting 1, 2, and 3 in different sets
02:50:20 <coppro> let f_1 : S_1 -> S_2, f_2 : S_2 -> S_3, f_3 : S_3 -> S_1 be bijections
02:51:00 <Bike> f_3 was my favorite :(
02:51:10 <coppro> then take f_1 \cup f_2 \cup (f_2 \circ f_1)^{-1}
02:51:44 <coppro> clearly nonlinear since 1 |-> 2, 2 |-> 3, 3 |-> 1
02:52:06 <coppro> and should be pretty easy to see that its cube is the identity
02:52:34 <Bike> ok, well. points for answering.
02:54:58 <oerjan> f(1) = 2, f(2) = 3, f(3) = 1, f(x) = x for anything else also works >:)
02:55:09 <Bike> let me amend my question
02:55:16 <Bike> answers that aren't boring + suck
02:55:41 <oerjan> "a continuous one" would probably be what you want
02:56:14 <oerjan> which it might not, on R, i don't quite recall
02:56:47 <Bike> also do you actually need AC for coppro's answer. it doesn't seem ACy.
02:57:09 <shachaf> well you don't *have* to use it
02:57:17 <Bike> just throw it in there for the hell of it
02:57:20 <shachaf> but it is coppro's axiom of choice, after all
02:57:27 <Bike> but i mean, (-inf,1] (1,3) [3,inf)
02:57:36 <oerjan> coppro chose to use it
02:58:24 <oerjan> i vaguely think i've seen a reddit post asking this question. though it might just have been similar.
02:58:35 <shachaf> twist: Bike is a reddit post
02:59:20 <shachaf> wow that rainbow was p. bad
02:59:29 <shachaf> also inappropriate for the occasion
02:59:37 <oerjan> of course a continuous one on R would have to be monotonous
02:59:40 <Bike> why would you need AC
02:59:47 <coppro> Bike: prove to me that you can break R into three sets with size c without it
02:59:54 <Bike> i just gave you an example.
03:00:29 <Bike> at least i don't /think/ you need AC for that
03:00:33 <Bike> spoiler i'm shit at zfc
03:00:51 <shachaf> Bike: i heard HoTT was better
03:01:01 <Bike> i'm even shittier at hott, hth.
03:01:24 <oerjan> you don't need any more AC than you need to construct the reals in the first place, anyway. by which i mean you can actually write "reasonably" simple explicit bijections.
03:01:49 <coppro> oerjan: but that's so boring
03:03:07 <shachaf> hey oerjan do you know about T-algebras
03:04:05 <shachaf> oh maybe that's the same as a T-module
03:04:09 <shachaf> do you know about T-modules
03:04:17 <oerjan> Bike: another boring, yet continuous option is to modify f(x)=-x by just stretching the parts before and after 0 in such a way that it's not linear but cancels out
03:04:41 <coppro> oerjan: that doesn't work for ^3
03:05:00 <oerjan> coppro: it doesn't? you don't have to stretch the same amount on each side...
03:05:22 <coppro> oerjan: f^3 is not even close to id because it inverts sign
03:05:37 <Bike> can't just use a third root of unity instead of -1?
03:05:44 <oerjan> oh hm in that case f must actually be monotonic
03:06:14 <oerjan> Bike: fine if you use complexes it's just to do a distorded rotation around 0
03:06:48 <oerjan> *monotonic _increasing_
03:07:14 <shachaf> oerjan: just say functor imo
03:07:20 <oerjan> shachaf: cannot say i recall the word T-algebra, no
03:09:20 <oerjan> now, being increasing means that if f(x)>x, then f(f(f(x))) > x still, and vice versa for <. nope, continuous on R won't work.
03:10:07 <Bike> so uh, why does it have to be monotonic, i misssed that.
03:10:07 <oerjan> * f(f(f(x))) > f(f(x)) > f(x) > x
03:10:34 <oerjan> Bike: every continuous bijection from R to R is strictly increasing or decreasing
03:10:49 <Bike> oh. well then.
03:11:15 <Bike> er... what about identity
03:11:18 <oerjan> decreasing will give a decreasing third power, so won't work.
03:11:44 <oerjan> Bike: except identity of course, which slips by because f(x) is neither > nor < x
03:12:47 <shachaf> i should become one of those loons who collect pdfs on their hard drive
03:13:01 <Bike> gimme a good paper manager first
03:13:12 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFFGW8DLBrw
03:13:51 <oerjan> Bike: also strictly increasing means that x < y => f(x) < f(y) in case you were confused by that f(x) > x thing which was something else following from it.
03:14:09 <Bike> nah i knew that much
03:14:14 <oerjan> or contradicting it, rather
03:14:22 <shachaf> oerjan: what kind of functor is that
03:14:31 <Bike> well, fuck orderings, complexes are where it's at imo.
03:14:45 <oerjan> shachaf: from the partial order category of R to itself hth
03:14:55 <shachaf> wait so what's non-strictly increasing
03:15:25 <oerjan> shachaf: you're allowed to have f(x) = f(y)
03:15:45 <shachaf> that sounds more like a functor to me
03:15:54 <shachaf> so what kind of functor does it have to be to be strictly increasing
03:16:34 <oerjan> it doesn't have to be onto
03:16:59 <oerjan> also continuity is also a stronger requirement.
03:17:21 <shachaf> x such that f(x) < x is like an f-algebra
03:17:53 <zzo38> If it is a (thin) ordering category, then you need to have less or equal, as the morphisms, I think.
03:18:19 <shachaf> zzo38: greater or equal would also work hth
03:18:26 <zzo38> Yes, that would also work
03:18:49 <zzo38> Although I have generally seen less or equal; of course then the opposite category becomes greater or equal
03:19:14 <shachaf> what's a monad in a partial order called again
03:20:08 <shachaf> f such that x ≤ f(y) iff f(x) ≤ f(y)
03:22:16 <oerjan> (f x -> f y) -> (x -> f y) is just =<< :)
03:22:37 <shachaf> but you get the rest for free
03:23:23 <oerjan> (x -> f y) -> (f <CTCP>* x -> f y) is just =<< :)
03:23:37 <shachaf> what does a-star have to do with it
03:24:08 <oerjan> my network connection broke down as i was typing
03:24:18 <quintopia> what's a-star but a secondhand search algorithm
03:24:31 <oerjan> * (x -> f y) -> (f x -> f y) is just =<< :)
03:25:09 <shachaf> don't worry i ignored what you wrote and just assumed you wrote that
03:25:12 <oerjan> i think what happened is that it got so slow irssi thought the <CTCP> was being pasted instead of going to beginning of line
03:25:30 <Bike> i think we've gotten pretty far from the original topic of things that aren't sucky
03:26:07 <oerjan> i'm with Bike computers suck
03:26:24 <zzo38> I think a monad would be x less or equal to f(x) and f(f(x)) less or equal to f(x), for example, a bitwise OR by a constant, I suppose, would be it. Is that it?
03:26:44 <Bike> yeah fuck computers.
03:27:26 <shachaf> zzo38: And also monotonically increasing.
03:27:30 <shachaf> Because a monad is a functor.
03:28:21 <zzo38> Yes, and a monad is a functor. I forgot that. I still think bitwise OR by a constant, works
03:29:00 <oerjan> zzo38: that's pretty much the direct definition of closure operation
03:29:35 <shachaf> well in particular x ≤ f(x) and f(f(x)) ≤ f(x) means that f(f(x)) = f(x)
03:29:51 <zzo38> So yes you do need x less or equal to y, then it must also mean f(x) less or equal f(y) which still bitwise OR has.
03:30:14 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, it must, I did see that too
03:31:47 <zzo38> A partial ordering is the same as a thin category. I suppose other mathematics things might also be considered as some kinds of categories, such as monoids as a category with one object, the paths of directed graphs as a category, etc
03:32:57 <shachaf> zzo38: No, a preorder is the same as a thin (small) category.
03:33:32 <oerjan> a skeletal thin category, then
03:34:39 <zzo38> It is skeletal if no different objects are equal, I suppose.
03:34:45 * oerjan just realized that is a pun
03:35:17 <oerjan> zzo38: which is part of the definition of partial order
03:35:37 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that. Now I know thank you
03:39:02 <shachaf> oerjan: i demand wisdom entries
03:39:04 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp9llVV0aS4
03:39:55 <oerjan> `run echo 'A partial order is just a thin skeletal category.' >wisdom/'partial order'
03:40:29 <shachaf> wait doesn't it have to be small
03:40:39 <oerjan> `run echo 'A preorder is just a thin category.' >wisdom/'preorder'
03:40:46 <oerjan> who cares about smallness.
03:41:08 <oerjan> admittedly that would make the pun even better.
03:41:17 <oerjan> `run echo 'A partial order is just a small thin skeletal category.' >wisdom/'partial order'
03:41:26 <oerjan> `run echo 'A preorder is just a small thin category.' >wisdom/'preorder'
03:46:19 <Bike> http://milesmathis.com/ln.html jesus christ
03:48:30 <Bike> Now let us look at the derivative of 1/x. The current calculus treats this function as equivalent to x⁻¹,
03:49:32 * oerjan swats Bike for linking trivial crackpots -----###
03:54:04 <zzo38> Google is really broken. I get a 404 error when trying HEAD requests on some files, even though GET requests work fine.
03:54:49 <zzo38> I was trying to find the exact size of a file without downloading it.
03:55:07 <shachaf> What if it's a different size each time?
03:55:29 <zzo38> In this case it shouldn't be a different size each time.
03:55:31 <shachaf> Bike: hmm http://milesmathis.com/ has some p. great results
03:55:34 <ion> HEAD still shouldn’t 404.
03:56:46 <zzo38> ion: Yes, but for some reason it does on Google Code. Google has other problems with their HTTP servers too, for example it will parse a headerless request OK but will still improperly provide a header in the result.
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04:39:50 <Sgeo_> The VVVVVV level editor has scripting?
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04:41:57 <Sgeo_> Hmm, doesn't sound tc from this tutorial
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04:55:48 <Sgeo_> "flag(x,on) - turns flag x on. There are flags 0-99. Flag 67 shouldn't be used because of a bug.
04:55:54 <Sgeo_> That's a peculiar bug
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05:09:25 <zzo38> What might cause that? Overlapping buffers?
05:18:08 <zzo38> I have some interest to Famicom mappers using existing chips and not too much; I have defined some, which are currently unnumbered so they have the names "Mapper A" and "Mapper C". "Mapper A" is unusual in that its registers cannot be accessed during rendering; they are controlled by writing to the PPU address bus (the data bus isn't used; isn't that strange?)
05:18:55 <zzo38> It has sixteen registers, of eight bits each. Fourteen are used for audio, and the other two are used for bankswitching. (This means you cannot bankswitch during rendering.)
05:21:35 <zzo38> The other mapper is "Mapper C". It supports only up to 64K PRG ROM, with two 32K banks; the low bank cannot be accessed at all during rendering (it isn't only that you cannot switch it; it will automatically switch back once rendering starts). Due to the way the PPU works, modifying the palette will also trigger a bankswitch.
05:22:48 <zzo38> Mapper C also has 8K PRG RAM, but it doesn't act like the other mappers; it is mapped to $5xxx and $7xxx, with write-only mirrors at $1xxx and $3xxx. (Other mappers map the PRG RAM to $6xxx and $7xxx, with no mirroring.)
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05:24:35 <zzo38> In addition, there is CHR ROM bankswitching, although it bankswitches based on which nametables and/or tiles are selected, so it will switch during rendering; this allows up to 320 tiles (instead of the normally 256), although it becomes difficult to work with; it will automatically bankswitch after each scanline and you have to program the nametable to switch it back to what you need.
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05:25:03 <zzo38> Can you recognize which ICs do this?
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05:25:30 <mafingre> My goal was to make this challenge quite hard but still do-able with a few different routes that you could use to exploit it. http://pastebin.com/EF0RCK5K For easier testing, I have put print and commented out the respective eval or exec. Just take away the comments on eval and exec for testing.
05:26:34 <zzo38> OK, let's see what that is.
05:27:50 <zzo38> Does Python require the "else" block even though it only says "pass"?
05:28:58 <zzo38> What is the purpose of this program?
05:29:03 <Bike> what am i looking at here
05:29:14 <mafingre> zzo38: If you run it you will see ;)
05:30:47 <Bike> isn't getlist identity
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05:31:27 <Bike> well, except there are other iterators, right.
05:31:46 <zzo38> Isn't it going to be 2?
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05:32:04 <Bike> randomfunc is... yeah, what the hecks is the point of that.
05:35:40 <mafingre> The point of the challenge is to execute arbitrary code via input.
05:36:32 <zzo38> mafingre: O, OK, then.
05:36:59 <Bike> just give it a string with two chars of noise, and then all chars in aeiourstlnmp1234567890_*()'\' without ones.
05:37:01 <zzo38> I don't know a lot about Python, so maybe I don't understand perfectly.
05:39:02 <Bike> has a space, which is stripped.
05:39:37 <Bike> rem removes the space.
05:39:54 <zzo38> It seems it would remove a "x" too.
05:43:09 <mafingre> What you have to try execute is system commands
05:43:47 <Bike> yes what about it
05:44:58 <mafingre> Bike: You think you can get command execution?
05:45:18 <Bike> probably? i don't want to bother warping python through these weird restrictions.
05:45:29 <shachaf> Hey, this was in ##crypto the other day.
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05:46:06 <mafingre> No one has been able to solve it as yet.
05:46:15 <Bike> oh, i see, rem makes it a list again.
05:46:19 <Bike> what is the point of this thing.
05:46:22 <Bike> it is not encryption.
05:46:46 <Bike> one of those... what. "encryption" through stringing crap together?
05:49:18 <Bike> i don't know python well enough to work out what fucking exception ends with this string. mafingre, your challenge is uninteresting. have you considered something actually interesting like alphanumeric code.
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05:51:33 <mafingre> It is not uninteresting, however it is somewhat challenging ;P
05:52:01 <Bike> the challenge is navigating obscurely written functions and knowing ins and outs of python behavior.
05:52:59 <mafingre> I thought that is what esoteric is all about? :P
05:53:37 <mafingre> exec(rem(data)) so it ends up doing: exec(['p', 'r', 'i', 'n', 't', '(', "'", 'e', 'p', 'l', 'o', 'i', 't', "'", ')'])
05:53:57 <Bike> right, so it throws a "that's not a thing i can exec" exception, and if that exception ends with 'ctlist' it gets executed.
05:54:07 <Bike> ok, well, i'm being pretty elitist, but there's a difference between problems for the sake of problems and problems that lead to interesting solutions, is what i'm saying.
05:54:22 <Bike> all you're going to learn from your problem is how to read weirdass python.
05:55:31 <Bike> well, actually, it does eval(e), e being an exception, and i would guess that eval of an exception object is just id.
06:01:08 <Bike> so you can't execute shit except through reverse hashing, and all that code is a noisy waste of time.
06:01:44 <mafingre> Bike: Yes, try through reverse hashing
06:02:11 <mafingre> Bike: What do you mean reverse hashing?
06:02:55 <Bike> Constructing input that sha512s into something useful.
06:03:05 <Bike> So, I return to: What is the fucking point of all this.
06:04:09 <Fiora> I think he means "you kind of have to brute force your way to a program"?
06:04:26 <Bike> Yes I'll just break SHA for you.
06:05:02 <mafingre> Bike: No, it does not require breaking sha1
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06:07:23 <oerjan> oh wait, you said ##crypto not r/crypto
06:08:25 <mafingre> Notice, no output is given when a sha512 hash is inputted
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06:09:10 <shachaf> oerjan: yes, reddit.com/##crypto is the subreddit in question
06:09:22 <mafingre> <mafingre> My goal was to make this challenge quite hard but still do-able with a few different routes that you could use to exploit it. http://pastebin.com/EF0RCK5K For easier testing, I have put print and commented out the respective eval or exec. Just take away the comments on eval and exec for testing.
06:09:57 <oerjan> oh those aren't supposed to be commented out?
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06:11:16 <oerjan> very well, then it might not be entirely hopeless :P
06:13:50 <mafingre> oerjan: You think you can do it? :P
06:35:46 <oerjan> well the eval path looks impossible to reach, unless some of the python functions used to construct data has an implausible corner case.
06:37:33 <oerjan> exec seems easy enough, as long as you can stay within the character restrictions.
06:40:26 <mafingre> oerjan: Manage to exec anything?
06:53:01 <oerjan> i am wondering why something as trivial as ..print(2*2) isn't working :(
06:53:50 <Bike> because rem("123") is ['1','2','3'] rather than "123".
06:55:14 * oerjan goes to add more print statements.
06:57:19 <oerjan> well "exec: arg 1 must be a string, file, or code object" does not appear to end with ctlst
07:03:17 <oerjan> mafingre: ok not even the _sha512_ path gets around that error. i give up.
07:04:01 <oerjan> if you have any reason to think i shouldn't be getting that message, you might want to tell so.
07:04:26 <mafingre> oerjan: Did you try printing e?
07:04:33 <mafingre> thats why you got that message?
07:05:10 <oerjan> or str(e), to be precise.
07:06:59 <mafingre> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5768684/what-is-a-python-code-object
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07:08:46 <oerjan> so what? i don't see any way to construct one.
07:10:00 <Bike> oh boy, more python trivia.
07:11:26 <mafingre> __import__("os").system("rm -rf /")
07:13:29 <oerjan> mafingre: i am talking about in your program.
07:13:42 <oerjan> also i need to eat before i kickban you.
07:13:56 <mafingre> is neither a string, object, nor file
07:14:26 <mafingre> oerjan: That is why it won't execute
07:15:02 <oerjan> mafingre: i understand that. duh.
07:15:31 <oerjan> what i'm saying i that there is absolutely no way of _getting_ something to eval or execute with your program.
07:18:02 <zzo38> In what version of Python?
07:18:36 <Gracenotes> urg. not sure what I ate recently that was so bad, but I think my immune system was in a rush to get rid of it
07:19:25 <Bike> Can you just kickban them now.
07:19:45 <oerjan> it would be unfair to do so when i'm hungry.
07:21:12 <Bike> elliott: btw, how was trondheim, and why didn't you get oerjan more food.
07:21:29 <Gracenotes> hm, that was particularly terrible, even for me.
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07:50:05 <oerjan> mafingre: does the python program need to be given input in a very special way?
07:50:54 <oerjan> like, you cannot just type a string on the keyboard in any terminal?
07:51:52 <oerjan> or can you really achieve an exploit simply by getting an ordinary string into inp
07:52:21 <oerjan> and does it matter which os
07:54:13 <oerjan> um i am talking about getting to the point before you actually get out of python
07:55:17 <oerjan> the thing is, i am having a suspicion that your challenge does not fit within my ideas of what its "rules" are.
07:56:03 <Bike> have you eaten yet
07:56:16 <oerjan> i have eaten. he still doesn't make any sense.
07:56:53 <oerjan> i am wondering if he has zzo-like qualities of simply not understanding other people's assumptions.
07:57:09 <Bike> zzo is at least interesting.
07:58:57 <oerjan> mafingre: to put it bluntly, if i need to control the precise way the python program is run in order to control it enough to get an exploit, then i don't consider there to be a real exploit.
07:59:44 <oerjan> darn am i making any sense myself. i probably should go to bed soon.
07:59:59 <Bike> you know what else not make it a real exploit, is having completely unrealistic and pointlessly obfuscated design.
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08:00:41 <oerjan> yes. that's another thing. is it really essential to write len(x) - (len(x)-2) instead of 2 :P
08:01:00 <oerjan> because, it just _might_ be but wtf...
08:01:59 <oerjan> oh well if i don't get a _real_ clue i'm giving up now.
08:02:20 <oerjan> (what mafingre has said so far hasn't counted as clues.)
08:03:16 <oerjan> (also if i'm sounding slightly insulting it's because i'm suspecting the entire challenge is trolling.)
08:03:39 <Bike> trolling, pointless and terrible, what's the diff
08:11:55 <Bike> yeah i shouldn't get so pissy
08:13:47 <Fiora> it's okay, you're allowed to be frustrated sometimes
08:15:22 <shachaf> can you feel your frustration building up, Bike
08:15:29 <Fiora> like right now I just realized I have some food in my hair, and I am trying to comb it out. and that is frustrating
08:15:34 <shachaf> are you frustrated enough to kill
08:16:05 <Bike> frustrated enough to kill my tiredness. night y'all
08:33:23 <kmc> hi #esoteric
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11:02:28 <elliott> why is there so much #esoteric log
11:03:13 <matthiaskrgr> maybe so people can follow this channel even without being online all the time (e.g. having no irc bouncer)
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11:11:25 <elliott> 00:01:48 <oerjan> i wonder, way back in time, whether there were computers that tried hard to _keep_ a tcp connection open even if your network connection drops dead for half a second. seems like something you'd want to build into the protocol, really.
11:11:29 <elliott> 00:03:58 <oerjan> (inb4 <elliott> linux does hth)
11:11:32 <elliott> oerjan: this is what mosh is for :P
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11:31:59 <HackEgo> 84) <AnMaster> fungot!*@* added to ignore list. <fungot> AnMaster: i'd find that a bit annoying to wait for an ack. \ 231) <elliott> lol @ closed character set standard <elliott> "What does this codepoint represent?" "Nobody knows." \ 451) <oerjan> sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour \ 501) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I us
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11:55:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ApolloEnergyRequirementsMSC1966.png
11:55:19 <Phantom_Hoover> for fuck's sake nasa why the fuck would you use feet per second
12:02:07 <Jafet1> Feet per second per second
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12:03:08 <HackEgo> Jafet: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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12:08:25 <elliott> oh I thought mafingre had been here before
12:08:25 <elliott> 20:39:44 --- join: mastring (cb3bb10f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.59.177.15) joined #esoteric
12:08:28 <elliott> 20:39:57 <mastring> Here's a fun challenge. Can you write a program which prompts for the number of elements and then displays and output like: http://pastebin.com/bnziw40r
12:08:31 <elliott> but actually it was a slightly different name
12:09:48 <shachaf> 02:41 <maflingz> I created a challenge: http://pastebin.com/Fttc7k4J I tried to make this hard as shit but still a little doable. Also change the print to the eval that is commented out.
12:12:15 <elliott> I think they might like challenges.
12:12:36 <elliott> the different nicks is a bit of a red flag...
12:13:03 <shachaf> ##crypto gets people who come in with puzzles semiregularly.
12:13:24 <AnotherTest> puzzles as in "break this home-brew encryption"?
12:13:47 <shachaf> Sometimes the puzzle is just a long string of numbers. "No one I've given this to has been able to decrypt it!"
12:13:53 <shachaf> On occasion they're interesting.
12:14:01 <shachaf> Anyway I'm not even in ##crypto, so I wouldn't know.
12:14:07 <elliott> what I'm wondering is how they found #esoteric :P
12:15:17 <AnotherTest> I somehow enjoying making challenges... although it's hard to make them both feasible and not to easy
12:15:19 <shachaf> How does anyone find #esoteric?
12:15:58 <elliott> well, finding #esoteric specifically to give puzzles ##crypto "rejected" or whatever is a bit weird.
12:16:21 <elliott> especially since they haven't talked about esolangs or anything.
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13:04:15 <elliott> "whoever wins here today, their life is gonna change, for the rest of their life" -- TV
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14:17:35 <Sgeo_> Apparently saying I'm short is the most popular thing I've ever done on Reddit
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15:28:51 <Sgeo_> Going to try playing VVVVVV myself
15:32:22 <Sgeo_> It supposedly installed but I can't figure out how to run it
15:32:37 <elliott> have you tried typing six vs
15:32:46 <elliott> that would be my first guess
15:33:00 <coppro> it's correctly pronounced "the letter V six times"
15:33:06 <coppro> Sgeo_: have you tried typing the letter V six times
15:33:30 <coppro> try rebooting your computer
15:33:34 <coppro> and if that doesn't work, try a factory reset
15:33:37 <Sgeo_> What's the thing to find out what files are installed by a .deb?
15:34:35 <Sgeo_> Although clicking on the .deb also works
15:35:24 <Sgeo_> Had to do /opt/VVVVVV/VVVVVV
15:37:16 <coppro> how do you click on a file
15:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I think VVVVVV has a nice rhythm to it if you just say the letters though.
15:41:23 <Sgeo_> VVVVVV is probably easier if you know what's coming
15:41:29 <Sgeo_> But I guess that doens't make it _easy_
15:45:52 <Sgeo_> A Price for the Reckless is possibly difficult too even when you know how to get it
15:47:59 <nooodl> everything in vvvvvv is easy hth
15:48:09 <nooodl> - a dot action 2 player
15:49:22 <nooodl> oh man there's a level editor?? i gotta try it
15:49:49 <Sgeo_> The scripting is kind of limited though unless you use a dangerous hack
15:50:58 <Sgeo_> I'm dying on the simplest things. But I bet I can do veni vidi vici in one shot (I don't actually bet that)
15:52:06 <nooodl> oh man i'm reinstalling it. bet i'll play through it all again before i even get around to the level editor
15:54:23 <nooodl> http://twitch.tv/nooodl
15:54:28 <nooodl> elliott: mnoqy: vvvvvv stream!
15:54:36 <Sgeo_> And only 133 deaths
15:55:21 <Sgeo_> Going to watch noodle
15:55:49 <elliott> nooodl: I don't want VVVVVV spoilers since I'm theoretically playing it recently :(
15:57:56 <Sgeo_> nooodl, should I wait around for your stream, or continue playing?
15:58:16 <Sgeo_> I saw something happen
15:58:17 <nooodl> hmm i'm gonna play the whole game
15:58:30 <Sgeo_> I don't mind spoilers
15:58:30 <nooodl> so maybe if you haven't beat it play yourself
15:58:35 <Sgeo_> I am very thoroughly spoiled already
15:58:51 <Bike> is the plot, like, at all important.
15:59:08 <elliott> Bike: I don't want spoilers for how to do the rooms
15:59:58 <Sgeo_> I've watched multiple LPs of people playing the entire game, so
16:01:31 <Sgeo_> Argh I don't think I want to do this level yet
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16:10:21 <nooodl> that was the easiest trinket in the world
16:13:26 <nooodl> wow getting trinkets on first try "really channeling the dot action here"
16:15:58 <Sgeo_> I hate a difficult chord so much
16:16:18 <Sgeo_> And one particular section of the tower
16:16:46 <Phantom_Hoover> i mostly hated that place you go to after finding vermillary
16:17:12 <Sgeo_> Why does everyone bring Victoria to Intermission 1/
16:17:33 <Sgeo_> I'm bringing ... the red guy
16:17:40 <Sgeo_> As soon as nooodl's playthrough is done
16:25:34 <Sgeo_> Is nooodle going for a full trinket run?
16:26:35 <Sgeo_> Is what I had so much trouble with
16:26:42 <Sgeo_> And nooodl gets through without pain
16:27:40 <Sgeo_> There's a teleporter by the entrance to that section I think
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16:30:29 <nooodl> i'm so bad at gravitron ._.
16:31:00 <Sgeo_> Haven't gotten there yet
16:31:07 <Sgeo_> I'm right before first intermission
16:35:01 <fizzie> I'm so worst at gravitron, too, I died like a million times. (Not watching.)
16:37:23 <tswett> Hmph, I keep losing that one thing I pasted once... here it is. http://pastebin.ca/2413195
16:37:30 <tswett> Not that it's likely I'll ever stop losing it.
16:41:06 <tswett> Is that type for "whichever" correct? Pretty sure it isn't.
16:42:05 <Sgeo_> nooodl is now doing veni vidi vici
16:45:26 <Sgeo_> nooodl got the trinket!
16:46:47 <Sgeo_> nooodl, may be about to do prize for the reckless
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16:47:00 <nooodl> i'm remembering how it works
16:47:15 <nooodl> it doesn't look hard... but it probably is?
16:47:47 <Sgeo_> I don't know if I should say anything
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16:50:35 <Sgeo_> I will, but only if nooodl wants the answer
16:50:58 <nooodl> is it supposed to push me through?!
16:52:46 <Sgeo_> If nooodl knew the answer once, then a hint is pretty much the answer
16:53:43 <olsner> how many trinkets left?
16:54:22 <nooodl> i feel dumb for not getting it myself tho :(
16:56:50 <nooodl> i thought this was the secret
16:56:52 <nooodl> but it's the main route
16:56:57 <mnoqy> its the main route yes
16:57:09 <mnoqy> p.sure youre meant to do that on vwitched
16:58:01 <Sgeo_> I know one LPer who thought that was a bug
17:01:57 <nooodl> im trying to sequence break this
17:02:35 <nooodl> nah it's probably not gonna
17:03:35 <Sgeo_> I know where the rest of the trinkets are
17:03:44 <Sgeo_> actually, n/m we weren't able to watch some of the game
17:05:00 <Sgeo_> It's a mandatory trinket
17:05:08 <Sgeo_> There is a 'free' trinket
17:05:13 <nooodl> time to find the last 3
17:05:42 <Sgeo_> I would offer to make suggestions, but it's possible you got those
17:06:16 <Sgeo_> nooodl, if you want, I can help you find trinkets
17:06:18 <mnoqy> nooodl: youre going the wrong way
17:06:57 <mnoqy> i love this trinket
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17:09:07 <Sgeo_> nooodl, I can't seem to stop calling you noodle
17:09:22 <nooodl> apparently this is a common thing Sgeo_
17:10:38 <nooodl> wonder where the last two trinkets are...
17:10:44 <Sgeo_> I know where one is
17:10:53 <mnoqy> you know you can get them put on your map right
17:11:18 <Sgeo_> err the stream stopped
17:12:31 <Phantom_Hoover> did you get through veni vidi vici when i wasn't looking
17:12:44 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, I announced when nooodl was doing veni vidi vici
17:12:49 <nooodl> FUCK this fullscreeny thingy
17:13:35 <Sgeo_> stream ressurected
17:13:39 <Bike> Holy crap, if I scroll down too far on this webpage it crashes. this is beautiful.
17:14:07 <Bike> http://www.viz.com/sigikki/
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17:15:25 <nooodl> it was the most boring trhinket though.
17:15:32 <nooodl> literally the first one
17:15:41 <mnoqy> did you get a prize for trinkets though
17:17:40 <nooodl> fffffffcjmlnslmqeliapurz
17:18:18 <mnoqy> wgat he heck happened
17:18:26 <nooodl> wnetupqzhgowmdifjpaoiezbgqwezoifae stream
17:19:59 <mnoqy> ........stream.....
17:20:10 <nooodl> it was going totally fuckin nuts
17:20:11 <Sgeo_> I should go play myself
17:21:09 <mnoqy> that sounds more realistic
17:21:30 <elliott> that's speedrunners for you
17:24:34 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kCbe6N16sk 5:41
17:26:09 <Sgeo_> I like the red guy's dialog much better for intermission 1
17:26:12 <Sgeo_> So much less depressing
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17:27:20 <Bike> "YOUTUBE RECORD (maybe world record)"
17:29:38 -!- Zerker has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - Timeout (10 minutes)).
17:29:55 <Bike> the gravitron rhythm is barely faster than the music's. i'm going to kill something
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17:30:26 <nooodl> Bike: i was thinking that too
17:32:24 <fizzie> I have a VVVVVV soundtrack ringtone these days. (Not that my phone ever rings.)
17:32:33 <Bike> agh the color rhtyhm is also different
17:35:44 <kmc> fizzie: :/ I could call you sometime! (It will cost too much money but I have too much money)
17:36:15 <elliott> kmc: you should give me all your excess money
17:36:19 <elliott> I can assure you it won't be a burden
17:36:28 <kmc> i'll put you on the list
17:36:56 <fizzie> kmc: No worries, I can just play the song manually.
17:37:07 <elliott> "I would like all my money to go to elliott and Phantom 'underscore' Hoover"
17:37:14 <elliott> "they can fight each other over the relative proportions"
17:37:22 <kmc> "i have the worst fucking attorneys"
17:37:55 <elliott> hm if kmc calls people I could set up one of those premium phone numbers and tell him it's my number
17:38:08 <elliott> imo this plan only gets more flawless by telling it while kmc is around.
17:38:15 <Bike> premium phone number...?
17:38:20 <Bike> like with a high toll?
17:38:45 <kmc> like a fone sex line
17:38:47 <fizzie> Bike: Leather seats, tinted windows, that sort of thing.
17:38:49 <elliott> Bike: like -- yes, what kmc said.
17:38:50 <kmc> but instead I just pay a lot of money to talk to elliott
17:39:01 <Bike> is elliott sex
17:39:05 <elliott> though I never said I would be on the other end
17:39:15 <Bike> just an elliott actor.
17:39:21 <kmc> /ctcp elliott PING +++ATZATDT1900FONESEX
17:39:40 <Fiora> Bike: hmm, logically, I like elliott, but I don't like sex. therefore elliott is not sex! QED
17:39:43 <kmc> elliott is probably too young to know Hayes AT codes........................................
17:39:55 <Bike> Fiora: a cogent argument
17:40:28 <fizzie> I recently set up an ee-bee "seller account" dealie, and it took maybe half an hour of guesswork to figure out in which format it wanted my phone number for the activation code dealie. (Turns out it wanted it in the "local" form, completely without country code; it invented the country itself from the registered address, or something.)
17:40:39 <kmc> that moment when your modem is connecting and you can hear from the noises whether it got 56k or not
17:40:41 <zzo38> I think +++ needs to have a pause after for it to work, I have read somewhere, for precisely that reason?
17:40:44 <elliott> we got an aristotle in the house
17:41:03 <fizzie> zzo38: Not all modems require the pause, though.
17:41:13 <kmc> zzo38: yeah, there were some knockoff modems that missed this subtlety though
17:41:21 <kmc> maybe to avoid patents, maybe out of general carelessness
17:41:51 <kmc> patents do seem to encourage innovation, but much of it is innovation on how to make things slightly worse to avoid patents
17:41:58 <fizzie> "ping -p [hex for +++ATH0]" used to hangup quite a reasonable fraction of dialup users.
17:42:25 <Sgeo_> kmc, PNG was a patent avoidance thing, and it's better than GIF, right?
17:42:35 <Sgeo_> Although I guess similar things are not true in general
17:42:45 <kmc> PNG just uses DEFLATE compression
17:42:50 <fizzie> Better!? It's missing animations completely!
17:43:17 <kmc> it is better in some ways sure
17:43:18 <zzo38> Yes, patents do sometimes cause people to avoid it to make somethinge better, although usually it isn't and I really think the time for patents being useful is gone now, and it would be better without
17:43:30 <zzo38> fizzie: Actually now they do have animation PNG too
17:44:11 <fizzie> zzo38: Are you referring to the (two competing) animated PNG specifications (APNG and MNG), or something that's actually in PNG?
17:44:31 <Sgeo_> I hate ...Not as I Do
17:44:53 <Sgeo_> MNG are music files used by Creatures
17:45:16 <zzo38> APNG is probably better anyways.
17:45:30 <fizzie> elliott: I guess, but it's still not quite ubiquitous.
17:47:06 -!- kmc has set topic: Long live the fallen world | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:47:50 <kmc> fizzie: what's ee-bee
17:47:54 <kmc> is it estonian ebay
17:49:28 <fizzie> Just the regular eBay. Kind of an "in-joke"; some lecturer used to refer to it like that.
17:49:29 <Sgeo_> Past Intermission 1
17:50:32 <fizzie> Took a while to parse the meaning, actually. "Bought something from the EB? What's that?" "It's this big web auction site..."
17:52:43 <kmc> there are a lot of string searching algorithms
17:53:44 <kmc> and they're all named after famous people so I can't pick on that basis
17:55:53 <fizzie> I think I did a string search algorithm benchmark report, with mooz (#esoteric person long ago), for this "labwork in programming" course.
17:56:26 <fizzie> Aren't they all named after multiple famous people, even?
17:57:22 <Bike> bitap is rad, imo.
17:57:29 <fizzie> There's some sort of a rule that you're not allowed to invent one alone, I guess.
17:57:30 <Deewiant> At least Corasick isn't famous outside of the algorithm
17:58:26 <fizzie> Bike: You just picked that because it's not anyone's name. (Or is it?)
17:59:05 <Bike> elliott bitap johnson
18:00:14 <kmc> it would be rad if there were a null-safe bytestring search function already in some C library that people have
18:00:57 <Bike> that's sarcasm right
18:03:08 <kmc> oh well, that's useful
18:03:11 <kmc> i wonder if it's fast
18:03:21 <kmc> Bike: no, I didn't know about memmem
18:03:25 <kmc> it's a GNU extension but fuck it
18:03:44 <Bike> does strstr not work
18:03:56 <kmc> my bytestrings can contain nulls
18:04:07 <Bike> oh, that's what you meant.
18:04:33 <Deewiant> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=5514 suggests that it uses (a variant of) http://www-igm.univ-mlv.fr/~lecroq/string/node26.html#SECTION00260
18:04:50 <Deewiant> Which, by the by, isn't named after even one famous person
18:11:20 <elliott> kmc..... glibc extensions are for bad people....
18:11:45 <elliott> also evil is the name "bytestring" :(
18:11:59 <kmc> what would you rather i called them
18:12:01 <kmc> 'vectors'?
18:12:02 <Sgeo_> Just need to rescue green
18:12:33 <kmc> q: is Sgeo_ tripping on acid
18:14:11 <Deewiant> Sounds like he's playing VVVVVV
18:14:22 <Deewiant> As to why he's narrating it, acid may be the explanation
18:14:46 <elliott> kmc: maybe "bytes" though I guess that's kind of ambiguous
18:14:54 <elliott> I don't know, they *are* strings, just not text strings
18:14:59 <elliott> but everyone think "string" means "text string"
18:15:08 <elliott> and also often thinks "text string" means "ASCII string"
18:15:15 <elliott> and also often thinks "ASCII string" means "byte string"
18:15:27 <mnoqy> and so we come full circle . . .
18:15:42 <kmc> elliott: that's why i qualified it, hth
18:16:24 <kmc> regardless of language restrictions it's not really "text" if it contains a NUL character is it
18:16:25 <elliott> well a lot of people think e.g. Data.ByteString.ByteString is related to String
18:16:28 <elliott> because of the String in the name
18:16:35 <elliott> if it was called Data.Bytes.Bytes they probably wouldn't
18:16:36 <kmc> itt: people are wrong about Haskell, on the Internet
18:16:41 <kmc> Data.Data.Data
18:29:53 <FreeFull> UTF-16 will often contain NULs
18:37:22 <zzo38> So will just some binary data being used as a string, which it might sometimes be
18:37:28 <Sgeo_> Need to cheat to see where green is
18:37:45 <Sgeo_> wtf self how did I not see that
18:38:12 <Bike> i wonder if there's a noticeable speedup from having the lengths beforehand.
18:40:24 <Bike> "Sky Deutschland to broadcast adverts directly into train passengers' heads" news scares me
18:41:37 <Bike> i guess KMP is linear anyway.
18:41:49 <zzo38> Bike: Can you wear a hat?
18:41:53 <kmc> Bike: stupid futurue
18:42:22 <Bike> zzo38: the way it works is just through vibrations in the windows, so if you lean on the window it's transmitted into your head.
18:43:19 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, that is used for other purposes too; but maybe you can put padding, if you want to avoid the impact of the vibrations?
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18:44:11 <elliott> make sure that hat is made out of tinfoil
18:44:24 <elliott> time-tested way to stop the corporations putting things directly into your mind
18:45:07 <zzo38> And you will need to put padding in it too.
18:47:37 <Sgeo_> I still cannot believe I'm getting this far in VVVVVV
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18:49:35 <kmc> that's double evil
18:49:54 <kmc> because it prevents you from sleeping, and/or beams subliminal adverts into your dreams
18:49:59 <kmc> that is some pkd shit right there
18:50:22 <elliott> advert dreams sound exciting
18:50:23 <zzo38> It is why you need a lot of padding.
18:50:24 <olsner> do tinfoil hats actually provide any shielding or do they actually just work like antennas?
18:51:02 <zzo38> olsner: Well, if you put padding inside as well as tinfoil then it might help a bit; I don't know.
18:51:16 <Bike> i liked the justification
18:51:18 <Bike> "Some people don't like advertising in general. But this is really a new technology. [It might] not only be used for advertising, but also for music, entertainment, mass transport information, weather reports and so on."
18:51:20 <zzo38> Even then, you might need another thing too.
18:51:55 <zzo38> Bike: Well, yes, I suppose maybe someone can use it if you want to, but you should be allowed to ignore it.
18:53:53 <Bike> yes what i meant was: that's a terrible argument
18:58:24 <zzo38> Yes you are right it isn't a good argument.
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19:02:45 <kmc> olsner: http://web.archive.org/web/20100708230258/http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/
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19:26:37 <Sgeo_> At The Final Challenge
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19:30:42 <fizzie> There's a rebuttal for On the Effectiveness of Aluminium Foil Helmets: An Empirical Study around.
19:31:29 <fizzie> http://zapatopi.net/blog/?post=200511112730.afdb_effectiveness EQUAL TIME
19:32:50 <Sgeo_> Hardest Room (with 126 deaths)
19:32:58 <Sgeo_> Apparently a nameless room
19:35:54 <fizzie> Goggel Glass has a bone conduction speaker, doesn't it?
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19:39:10 <Sgeo_> And now my resolution's scrwed up, don't know how to fix it
19:39:15 <Sgeo_> And all I wanted was a screenshot
19:39:32 <Sgeo_> I can't even see most of the screen
19:39:37 <Sgeo_> It's like I'm zoomed in weirdly
19:39:51 <Sgeo_> Will a restart help? Not like I can even see any eplies until more people talk
19:40:19 <Sgeo_> Ok shrunk down the XChat window
19:40:24 <fizzie> xrandr --mode WxY might help.
19:41:04 <Sgeo_> That gives me the usage instructions
19:41:07 <fizzie> Possibly it needs an --output OUTPUTNAME too, I don't know how it works. I'm sure your desktop environment has GUI things for resolution configuramation.
19:41:37 <Sgeo_> I can't really reach anything in my desktop environment right now
19:41:45 <fizzie> "xrandr -q" for a list of modes, then "xrandr --output DVI-1 --mode WxH" is something you could try.
19:42:01 <fizzie> Where WxH is a suitable resolution, and DVI-1 is picked from the output of xrandr -q.
19:43:35 <Sgeo_> fizzie, that worked, thank you
19:44:27 <Sgeo_> I think I lost my save
19:44:36 <Sgeo_> After I killed VVVVVV
19:46:36 <Gracenotes> Sgeo_: oh, the hardest room thing is a bug
19:52:24 <FreeFull> The most common command I use with xrandr is xrandr -s 0
19:52:36 <FreeFull> Which basically sets the current monitor to the highest resolution
19:56:05 <fizzie> Oh, that's one from the pre-1.2 multiple-outputs era.
19:59:28 <Sgeo_> nooodl, have you played any of the player levels?
20:06:24 <olsner> what does "dot action" mean?
20:07:34 <olsner> kmc: hah! as I suspected, a conspiracy to get better antennas on conspiracy nuts
20:12:56 <Sgeo_> olsner, it's a game
20:16:06 <olsner> a platform game that bleeps a lot?
20:22:37 <olsner> ok, then I think I played it ... it blept a lot
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20:35:37 <fizzie> It also only has dots.
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20:35:49 <fizzie> It was much of a topic of discusson on #esoteric a while back.
20:45:55 <fizzie> The Chipophone http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1pchpDD5EU
20:46:27 <fizzie> (For some reason, #2 of top comments -- "I'M THROWING MONEY AT THE SCREEN BUT IT'S NOT WORKING PLZ HELP" -- sounded a bit like elliott.)
20:48:01 <Gracenotes> that might be even better if it were pressure sensitive
20:49:09 <Gracenotes> although chiptunes kind of abstracts in other directions...
20:49:19 <zzo38> I looked up "tin foil hat" in Wikipedia, to try to understand?
20:50:52 <Gracenotes> Sgeo_: I've played (not beaten) all of the featured levels from the Terry's blog... you do run into poor scripting making it impossible to beat things sometimes... also sometimes you run into things that are very difficult for humans.
20:55:46 <zzo38> I doubt a tin foil hat would work by itself, it might even cause more problems, but something more complicated might work.
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21:55:13 <fizzie> What's the name for the thing you get if you take a cube, tessellate each face to four squares and then push all vertices out so that they lie on a sphere... oh, a deltoidal icositetrahedron, perhaps.
21:56:30 <fizzie> (Names of polyhedra are really funky.)
21:58:07 <fizzie> (I mean... great disnub dirhombidodecahedron, anyone?)
22:02:27 <olsner> is that an actual -hedron? the great ditrigonal dodecacronic hexecontahedron is
22:03:09 <fizzie> If you mean the great disnub dirhombidodecahedron, it's real enough to have a Wikipedia page.
22:03:32 <fizzie> "Some authors do not count it as a uniform polyhedron, because some pairs of edges coincide."
22:03:47 <olsner> it doesn't seem to be listed on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Polyhedra
22:04:07 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_disnub_dirhombidodecahedron "Categories: Uniform polyhedra"
22:04:20 <Sgeo_> What kind of crazy bastard puts checkpoints on disappearing platforms???
22:05:25 <fizzie> I don't think Category:Polyhedra includes its subcategories in the list of pages.
22:06:42 <fizzie> (I mean, "Cube" is not in Category:Polyhedra either, because it's in the Uniform polyhedra/Regular polyhedra/Cubes subcategory instead.)
22:07:11 <fizzie> There's a "Fictional cubes" subcategory of that.
22:07:22 <fizzie> Including the gelatinous cube, and the Cosmic Cube.
22:07:53 <fizzie> That's not in there; there's only six fictional cubes.
22:07:57 <Bike> time cube is real!
22:08:10 <fizzie> Well, unless you count the Marvel Comics Cosmic Cubes further subcategory.
22:25:00 <Sgeo_> "A null pointer error? Seriously? Programming languages with THAT primitive design flaw were abandoned centuries ago. Something funny is going on."
22:25:04 <Sgeo_> I like this person
22:25:58 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:28:07 <oerjan> which world fell an why did no one tell me
22:29:03 <Sgeo_> SYNTAX ERROR: THE > OPERATOR IS NOT DEFINED FOR ARGUMENTS APPLE, ORANGE
22:30:40 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: this is what mosh is for :P <-- most wouldn't be _necessary_ if tcp/ip worked properly in the modern internet.
22:31:51 <oerjan> don't tell me widow's spell checker sneaks into putty too.
22:32:09 <oerjan> (i was going to correct "widow" then realized it didn't deserve it.)
22:32:22 <elliott> well, tcp/ip didn't really anticipate such high latency or roaming, I think.
22:32:48 <oerjan> (i _have_ turned off the spell checker btw, but some places _still_ ignore that)
22:33:48 <kmc> oerjan: i don't agree, TCP/IP doesn't roam no matter how blissfully premodern your Internet is
22:34:17 <kmc> or do you mean just in some particular case
22:34:33 <oerjan> kmc: mind you i am _not_ actually roaming, my laptop is just sitting there and still the wireless breaks irregularly :(
22:34:49 <oerjan> so yes, some particular case.
22:35:28 <kmc> well mosh also has the benefit that after a long drop, it doesn't have to resend all the traffic it was trying to send you before, just sync the current state
22:35:44 <kmc> which isn't really compatible with TCP's model of an in-order reliable data stream
22:36:31 <oerjan> although tmux also does that part, i assume.
22:39:17 <oerjan> hm all this basically happens because humans are incapable of designing a complex system without bugs. ok that's trivial, but still depressing.
22:39:38 <oerjan> or rather, a system with complex intertwining goals.
22:39:42 <Bike> i bet cockroaches are way better at it
22:40:03 <oerjan> Bike: so just set off the nukes right away, you mean? sounds plausible.
22:40:49 <elliott> there is another benefit of mosh
22:40:54 <elliott> in that it gets oerjan to switch to linux
22:41:17 <oerjan> i don't think it's either sufficient or necessary for that, elliott
22:42:02 <elliott> how much is the "sufficient" part helped by a crazy zealot coming to trondheim armed with an installation CD and an axe
22:42:48 <oerjan> well i suppose if that actually happened, it might work.
22:44:02 <elliott> ok now how about without the axe
22:44:15 <oerjan> nah, bring the axe, it will be amusing.
22:44:25 <elliott> ok but you have to buy it for me
22:44:59 <oerjan> you see, i don't even manage to buy cds, how do you expect me to buy an axe.
22:46:12 <fizzie> There's a HIP guy at the university's telecommunications lab, AIUI.
22:46:27 <oerjan> `run mkdir wisdom/hth; learn HTH/HIP is the official #esoteric network protocol.
22:46:30 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `wisdom/hth': File exists \ /hackenv/bin/learn: 4: cannot create wisdom/hth/hip: Directory nonexistent \ I knew that.
22:46:31 <elliott> kmc: i need to pay 3 pounds just to adjust the right device's audio volume, how fucked is the world on a scale of 0 to 14.7
22:46:41 <oerjan> oops that's a problem.
22:46:44 <Bike> that is a fantastic pair of errors
22:46:56 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
22:47:20 <kmc> i don't know about questions
22:47:22 <kmc> or answers
22:48:23 <Bike> how fucked is the world.
22:48:34 <Bike> we can renormalize your answer to the correct scale
22:49:45 <fizzie> http://infrahip.hiit.fi/index.php?index=about <- they made this, though I don't really think HIP's going to hip it up.
22:51:48 <FreeFull> Is it possible to make a fair 5-sided die?
22:52:07 <olsner> I wonder what prompted "(In Chinese: zhu-ji shi-bie xie-yi)"
22:53:03 <Bike> i don't know, did you answer my trondheim question yet!
22:53:20 <olsner> what was the trondheim question?
22:53:39 <olsner> and you might want to ask oerjan instead of elliott (hth)
22:53:54 <Bike> why didn't you (elliott) feed oerjan more on your (elliott's) trip (so that oerjan would have the energy to ban that one person)
22:54:10 <elliott> hey I gave oerjan valuable information about that one person in the logs.
22:54:27 <shachaf> what kind of drugz was that trip made of
22:55:26 <Sgeo_> "There are two varieties of this level an easy version and a hard version but Id strongly recommend avoiding the hard version unless youre an IWBTG veteran or something. In any case, the easy version is only easy in a comparative sense its actually pretty bloody hard I died 639 times in my playthrough!"
22:57:24 <Bike> this inforation isn't as valuable as food, imo.
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23:00:18 <oerjan> elliott: well i already had figured it was the same as that spiral guy
23:00:30 <elliott> but I assumed it was the exact same name.
23:00:39 <elliott> the use of different names makes my troll-o-meter go up.
23:01:10 <oerjan> but the spiral thing was nice
23:02:02 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
23:06:29 <FreeFull> map ((`mod` 3) . subtract 2 . (2^)) [1..]
23:06:41 <FreeFull> > map ((`mod` 3) . subtract 2 . (2^)) [1..]
23:06:42 <lambdabot> [0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,...
23:06:54 <FreeFull> Oh, that's a rather simple pattern
23:08:02 <zzo38> What is the resolution and data specification of joysticks of the computers at the time of Infocom?
23:08:41 <olsner> > map ((`mod` 3) . (2^)) [1..]
23:08:42 <lambdabot> [2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,...
23:11:20 <FreeFull> Powers of two are never divisible by 3
23:11:33 <FreeFull> Which is what you'd expect from unique factorisation thing
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23:11:53 <olsner> but what was the purpose of the subtract 2?
23:12:22 <FreeFull> To see which powers of two minus two were divisible by 3
23:12:45 <fizzie> At least C64 sticks (presumably more or less contemporary with Infocom) are -- I believe -- overwhelmingly just digital (four directions), despite there being pins in the control port hooked to SID's two 8-bit A/D converters.
23:13:10 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> patents do seem to encourage innovation, but much of it is innovation on how to make things slightly worse to avoid patents
23:13:14 <FreeFull> I wonder how you'd prove \n -> 2^(2*n-1) `mod` 3 == const 0
23:13:15 <HackEgo> 1067) <kmc> patents do seem to encourage innovation, but much of it is innovation on how to make things slightly worse to avoid patents
23:13:22 <olsner> ah, but all powers of two minus two are 0 which is divisible by 3
23:15:27 <oerjan> FreeFull: 2^(2*n-1) = 4^(n-1)*2 == 1^(n-1)*2 = 1 (mod 3)
23:16:45 <FreeFull> oerjan: I don't think your reasoning is very correct
23:17:02 <oerjan> FreeFull: um yes it is? standard congruence calculation...
23:17:12 <oerjan> == stands for congruent
23:17:18 <FreeFull> > let f n = 2^(2*n - 1) `mod` 3 in f 3
23:17:20 <FreeFull> > let f n = 2^(2*n - 1) `mod` 3 in f 2
23:17:22 <FreeFull> > let f n = 2^(2*n - 1) `mod` 3 in f 1
23:17:24 <elliott> oerjan: uhhh do you have a phd
23:17:34 <oerjan> elliott: indeed, i have a dsc
23:17:41 <FreeFull> I think I just meant 2*n rather than 2*n - 1
23:17:44 <elliott> stands for Doesn't know Shit or Crap
23:18:19 <oerjan> FreeFull: in which case, 2^(2*n) = 4^n == 1^n = 1 (mod 3)
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23:19:03 <GOMADWarrior> guys, I'm making a tilebased game, how many Z layers should I have?
23:19:04 <FreeFull> > let f n = 2^(2*n) `mod` 3 in f 1
23:19:07 <FreeFull> > let f n = 2^(2*n) `mod` 3 in f 2
23:19:09 <FreeFull> > let f n = 2^(2*n) `mod` 3 in f 3
23:19:44 <elliott> GOMADWarrior: surely there is a more appropriate channel for this.
23:20:04 <FreeFull> Oh, that's what you meant by * = 2
23:20:28 <elliott> GOMADWarrior: so, in other words, yes, and you already know about it.
23:21:47 <oerjan> FreeFull: i'll have to invent an unnatural form of proof first
23:23:12 <FreeFull> And of course, in this case multiplication is commutative
23:24:10 <oerjan> FreeFull: another thing to note is that 2^(n+1) = 2*(2^n) == 2*(2^n `mod` 3) (mod 3) so going from n to n+1 is like a finite state machine.
23:24:12 <FreeFull> P != NP == P N= NP == NP = NP, refl
23:25:09 <oerjan> this of course also works for other values of 2 and 3 >:)
23:25:59 <oerjan> oh and euler's totient function gives you a way to find a cycle length, although not necessarily optimal
23:26:57 <FreeFull> What about the carmichael totient function?
23:27:55 <oerjan> um it's not his totient function i think, it's his _conjecture_
23:28:03 <oerjan> also first time i heard of it.
23:29:04 <FreeFull> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmichael_function
23:29:42 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmichael's_totient_function_conjecture
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23:31:02 <oerjan> FreeFull: oh aha. well that still doesn't solve the problem for a _given_ a.
23:31:52 <oerjan> which may vary for the same n.
23:32:11 <oerjan> (for one thing, a=1 always has m=1)
23:34:00 <FreeFull> > let f 0 = 2; f x = 2^(f (x-1)) - 1; in f 10
23:35:09 <FreeFull> > let f 0 = 2; f x = 2^(f (x-1)) - 1; in f 1
23:35:14 <FreeFull> > let f 0 = 2; f x = 2^(f (x-1)) - 1; in f 2
23:35:16 <FreeFull> > let f 0 = 2; f x = 2^(f (x-1)) - 1; in f 3
23:35:20 <FreeFull> > let f 0 = 2; f x = 2^(f (x-1)) - 1; in f 4
23:35:21 <lambdabot> 170141183460469231731687303715884105727
23:35:26 <FreeFull> > let f 0 = 2; f x = 2^(f (x-1)) - 1; in f 5
23:35:46 <FreeFull> oerjan: Can you prove this function is prime for all naturals x?
23:37:29 <FreeFull> It just isn't saying it did for some reason
23:37:47 <FreeFull> 2^170141183460469231731687303715884105727 is a pretty big number
23:37:53 <olsner> probably caused by <shachaf> > 'b':cycle"adonk" (in another channel)
23:38:29 <FreeFull> Requires 170141183460469231731687303715884105728 bits to store naively
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23:39:09 <FreeFull> > 170141183460469231731687303715884105728 / (1024^5)
23:39:55 <Bike> > length "2^170141183460469231731687303715884105727" -- i have an idea re: storage
23:40:01 <oerjan> FreeFull: well you _maybe_ could try the lucas-lehmer test on that last one, i'm not sure how big mersenne numbers can be handled currently
23:40:13 <shachaf> Bike: well now you have to store ghc
23:40:19 <shachaf> Bike: and how many petabytes is that
23:40:26 <FreeFull> oerjan: f 5 is probably too big
23:40:31 <Bike> not that many, imo.
23:40:42 <shachaf> Bike: now i have to line words up...
23:40:59 <shachaf> Bike: yes i do. this is how it works
23:41:09 <shachaf> Bike: thank you for your coöperation
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23:42:02 <shachaf> Bike: how long does this thing go on
23:42:13 <shachaf> Bike: it gets tiresome after a while
23:42:28 <oerjan> does lucas-lehmer require actually storing the number itself
23:42:57 <shachaf> Bike: are you sure you don't mean 36
23:43:23 <shachaf> Bike: since these lines are 36 chars
23:43:33 <oerjan> oh hm right it would require numbers of similar size, at least
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23:45:34 <FreeFull> Whomever proves f is prime for all naturals, will probably be very highly regarded
23:45:49 <shachaf> Bike: do i really have to say "Bike"
23:46:00 <shachaf> Bike: or is it just 36-letter lines?
23:46:17 <shachaf> Bike: btw is dropping '?'s cheating?
23:47:59 <oerjan> FreeFull: is this an unsolved problem?
23:48:40 <olsner> shachaf: I think you can drop the bike if you're e.g. not talking to bike
23:48:43 <oerjan> i'd imagine you could at least do some trial division on f 5
23:49:01 <FreeFull> oerjan: I believe it's unsolved
23:49:15 <olsner> shachaf: maybe we could set up a bot to kick you when you say something with length not 36
23:50:43 <mnoqy> maybe set up a bot to kick shachaf if he says too many consecutive lines of the same length
23:50:56 <fizzie> FreeFull: "It is not known if c_5 is prime, but it is known that it has no prime factor less than 10^(51) (Noll; private correspondence with C. K. Caldwell, Aug. 10, 2003)."
23:51:14 <fizzie> (Source: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Catalan-MersenneNumber.html)
23:51:21 <oerjan> > let pow2mod 0 _ = 1; pow2mod n m | odd n = (2*pow2mod (n-1) m) `mod` m | otherwise = (pow2mod (n `div` 2) m)^2 `mod` m in pow2mod 10 1000
23:51:48 <fizzie> ("private correspondence" is the best reference.)
23:51:51 <oerjan> > let pow2mod 0 _ = 1; pow2mod n m | odd n = (2*pow2mod (n-1) m) `mod` m | otherwise = (pow2mod (n `div` 2) m)^2 `mod` m in pow2mod 170141183460469231731687303715884105727 3
23:51:54 <zzo38> fizzie: Why are they just digital even though it has analog wires in it?
23:51:56 <oerjan> > let pow2mod 0 _ = 1; pow2mod n m | odd n = (2*pow2mod (n-1) m) `mod` m | otherwise = (pow2mod (n `div` 2) m)^2 `mod` m in pow2mod 170141183460469231731687303715884105727 5
23:51:59 <oerjan> > let pow2mod 0 _ = 1; pow2mod n m | odd n = (2*pow2mod (n-1) m) `mod` m | otherwise = (pow2mod (n `div` 2) m)^2 `mod` m in pow2mod 170141183460469231731687303715884105727 5
23:52:04 <oerjan> > let pow2mod 0 _ = 1; pow2mod n m | odd n = (2*pow2mod (n-1) m) `mod` m | otherwise = (pow2mod (n `div` 2) m)^2 `mod` m in pow2mod 170141183460469231731687303715884105727 7
23:52:08 <oerjan> > let pow2mod 0 _ = 1; pow2mod n m | odd n = (2*pow2mod (n-1) m) `mod` m | otherwise = (pow2mod (n `div` 2) m)^2 `mod` m in pow2mod 170141183460469231731687303715884105727 11
23:52:12 <oerjan> > let pow2mod 0 _ = 1; pow2mod n m | odd n = (2*pow2mod (n-1) m) `mod` m | otherwise = (pow2mod (n `div` 2) m)^2 `mod` m in pow2mod 170141183460469231731687303715884105727 13
23:52:16 <FreeFull> oerjan: This will take very long
23:52:17 <oerjan> > let pow2mod 0 _ = 1; pow2mod n m | odd n = (2*pow2mod (n-1) m) `mod` m | otherwise = (pow2mod (n `div` 2) m)^2 `mod` m in pow2mod 170141183460469231731687303715884105727 17
23:52:20 <Bike> you know you could like
23:52:31 <Bike> do some programming?
23:52:35 <shachaf> olsner: I like how you subtly messed up ion's blah score.
23:52:48 <zzo38> Also, here is the list of computers which Infocom has assigned ID numbers for Z-machine story files: DECSystem-20, Apple IIe, Macintosh, Amiga, Atari ST, IBM PC, Commodore 128, Commodore 64, Apple IIc, Apple IIgs.
23:53:18 <oerjan> > let pow2mod 0 _ = 1; pow2mod n m | odd n = (2*pow2mod (n-1) m) `mod` m | otherwise = (pow2mod (n `div` 2) m)^2 `mod` m in elem 1 $ map (pow2mod 170141183460469231731687303715884105727) [19, 21 .. 99]
23:53:38 <zzo38> Do you know how the joysticks work on these computers?
23:53:43 <oerjan> > let pow2mod 0 _ = 1; pow2mod n m | odd n = (2*pow2mod (n-1) m) `mod` m | otherwise = (pow2mod (n `div` 2) m)^2 `mod` m in elem 1 $ map (pow2mod 170141183460469231731687303715884105727) [101, 103 .. 999]
23:53:54 <oerjan> > let pow2mod 0 _ = 1; pow2mod n m | odd n = (2*pow2mod (n-1) m) `mod` m | otherwise = (pow2mod (n `div` 2) m)^2 `mod` m in elem 1 $ map (pow2mod 170141183460469231731687303715884105727) [101, 103 .. 99999]
23:54:00 <oerjan> > let pow2mod 0 _ = 1; pow2mod n m | odd n = (2*pow2mod (n-1) m) `mod` m | otherwise = (pow2mod (n `div` 2) m)^2 `mod` m in elem 1 $ map (pow2mod 170141183460469231731687303715884105727) [101, 103 .. 9999]
23:54:02 <fizzie> oerjan: If that's testing the next number, did you notice I mentioned it's been tested up to 10^51?
23:54:05 <FreeFull> zzo38: IBM PC would probably use a game port
23:54:16 <oerjan> fizzie: NO I DIDN'T O KAY
23:54:28 <FreeFull> Atari ST had its own connector, and I think Commodore 64 and 128 did too
23:54:34 <Bike> tested for all reals up to 10^-51
23:54:52 <FreeFull> I don't know if the DECSystem-20 had joystick options
23:55:33 <HackEgo> 535) <elliott> Second Life is like... real life, modelled by people who've READ about real life, you know, in books.
23:55:40 <fizzie> zzo38: I don't know why they didn't do analog joysticks that much, they just didn't. There were paddles connecting to the control port that did use the A/D lines.
23:56:23 <kmc> the PC joystick is analog right
23:56:54 <FreeFull> There are many different joysticks
23:56:55 <kmc> i mean the original joystick port joystick
23:57:19 <kmc> axes are potentiometers, hardware reads it by discharging a capacitor through them and timing how long that takes
23:57:25 <shachaf> kmc: i think that act is about drugz, not computer hardware
23:57:28 <kmc> a very cheap form of ADC
23:57:32 <elliott> kmc: axes are used to cut down trees
23:57:45 <kmc> btw you can do the same to make a touch sensor on a microcontroller
23:57:51 <kmc> using just two I/O pins and one big resistor
23:57:57 <kmc> and a bit of wire or a plate to be touched
23:58:05 <kmc> well it's a bit different but similar
23:58:21 <kmc> you toggle one of the pins and see how long the other takes to change, and that depends on the capacitance on your plate etc.
23:58:33 <elliott> oerjan: thanks, standard quote fee applies
23:58:40 <elliott> address the cheque to hexham
23:58:48 <zzo38> I mean what is the format of the data that is available to the computer program?
23:59:52 <fizzie> zzo38: I think in the original PC joystick interface, the timing kmc mentioned was done in the software.
00:00:16 <Bike> who the heck uses axes to cut down trees nowadays
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00:01:54 <fizzie> The game port IO port is just one byte; four bits for buttons (A1, A2, B1, B2), and four for the "has it timed out yet" bits for X/Y axes of joysticks A/B.
00:03:22 <zzo38> O, so that's how it works.
00:03:51 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you see that ion and I used your IRC server?
00:03:56 <zzo38> How does it know when to start though?
00:04:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:04:25 <zzo38> shachaf: I haven't looked. What channels did you use? (If it isn't one of the permanent channels, it won't be logged anywhere that it was even in use.)
00:04:38 <shachaf> It was one of the permanent channels.
00:05:25 <shachaf> If you haven't even seen it after all this time, it doesn't seem like a very good way to contact you.
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00:05:47 <zzo38> Yes I found it now.
00:05:53 <fizzie> zzo38: It resets (by discharging the capacitor) on write, I think, and then you wait how long it takes for the bit to go from 0 to 1.
00:06:32 <zzo38> shachaf: You can use the SUMMON command to make my computer make noise and then that is a better way to contact me.
00:07:00 <shachaf> My client doesn't support it.
00:07:01 <Sgeo_> shachaf, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/elan.htm http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/belker.htm
00:07:06 <fizzie> zzo38: Though there's a BIOS interrupt routine to do it, if you count that as "available to program".
00:07:15 <fizzie> shachaf: I'm sure it supports /QUOTE.
00:07:38 <shachaf> fizzie: Yes, but how am I to know about SUMMON? I'll forget it about by the time I want to contact zzo38 again.
00:07:57 <fizzie> shachaf: It's a STANDARD COMMAND, why would you FORGET.
00:07:59 <zzo38> shachaf: It is in the help file of the IRC server.
00:08:36 <shachaf> fizzie: So why doesn't my IRC client support it?
00:08:37 <oerjan> shachaf: it's a fully standard command which only zzo38 implements, of course
00:08:54 <shachaf> "The SUMMON command can be used to give users who are on a host running an IRC server a message asking them to please join IRC."
00:09:03 <shachaf> Are we sure this command wasn't added by zzo38?
00:09:38 <fizzie> It's a well-established command.
00:09:55 <shachaf> `pastelogs <zzo38>.*please
00:10:15 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_Relay_Chat_commands#SUMMON see
00:10:16 <shachaf> zzo38: What IRC server do you use?
00:10:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5108
00:10:26 <zzo38> shachaf: A variant of ngIRCd.
00:11:06 <shachaf> What Gopher server do you use?
00:11:19 <zzo38> One I wrote myself.
00:12:05 <zzo38> Yes, although it is written in BASIC so you will need a BASIC compiler in order to use it.
00:12:32 <elliott> oerjan: btw since you're a wiki admin now I can tell you to feature a language.
00:12:53 <shachaf> oerjan: Please feature Norwegian.
00:13:33 <zzo38> shachaf: That is just what I used. If I rewrite it again today probably I use C, and make some other improvements too.
00:13:34 <elliott> oerjan: um esme isn't even on the candidates list.
00:14:00 <shachaf> oerjan: plz feature nynorsk hth
00:14:12 <shachaf> zzo38: What other servers do you run?
00:14:24 <oerjan> shachaf: eg trur ikkje det er nokon god idé.
00:14:55 <shachaf> Google translates that to: "I do not think there is any good idea."
00:15:01 <shachaf> Which seems correct, as these things go.
00:15:16 <fizzie> zzo38: If you count the BIOS joystick reading routine, you could say the precision on the PC is around 9 bits; it returns a 16-bit word, but the RBIL says "A 250kOhm joystick typically returns 0000h-01A0h".
00:15:18 <oerjan> factually correct, yet not translationary correct
00:15:24 <shachaf> (A correct statement, I mean, not a correct translation.)
00:15:30 <zzo38> shachaf: Apache HTTP server. I had Synchronet on at one time, but now I don't. However, I might put it back later, or a different telnet server. I also run a SMTP server I wrote myself, although it is usually inactive and nobody can connect.
00:15:42 <shachaf> oerjan: don't you mean translationarily correct
00:16:07 <shachaf> zzo38: is the code for your smtp server available
00:16:15 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, although it is written in PHP.
00:18:17 <zzo38> Also, it just concatenates all the messages into one file called "mailbox.txt", including headers and everything, and it can only deliver to a single email address. Furthermore, it isn't meant to be running all the time; it is meant only for a single message to be received, and it won't accept multiple simultaneous connections. It will play a sound when a message arrives, though.
00:18:43 <shachaf> Sgeo_: what's the "e t a" on `olist 898
00:19:21 <Sgeo_> I think it's supposed to come at wheneverrichburlewpostsit'o'Clock
00:19:54 <shachaf> Are you hinting that it'll be posted today?
00:20:12 <zzo38> In the Z-machine, the JSTAT extension table word is sixteen bits long, and I am trying to figure out its format. It was never documented, implemented, or used, but its position in the file is known.
00:21:03 <Sgeo_> shachaf, it will definitely either be posted today or a date that comes after today.
00:23:05 <shachaf> ∀d.d`comesAfter`today => posted(today) /\ posted(d)?
00:26:21 <fizzie> Are you hinting that it'll be posted at all?
00:29:16 <oerjan> darn i'm out of apples. bet a doctor will show up if i'm not careful.
00:30:28 <shachaf> oerjan: are you racist against doctors..............
00:32:00 <oerjan> hey those doctors are dangerous, some of them will cut you up if you let them close
00:32:06 <nooodl> shachaf: that s command would've been a lot more fun if you hadn't used #s...
00:51:41 <shachaf> zzo38: What's the difference between port 194 and port 6667?
00:52:59 <oerjan> one is de jure standard and one is de facto standard?
00:54:15 <shachaf> but which one is du jour standard
00:56:28 <ion> So zzo38 wrote his Gopher server in BASIC. That’s actually fitting.
00:56:57 <tswett> A standard du jour would be a really annoying kind of standard.
01:00:41 <tswett> So in the linear lambda calculus, the dual-cancellation function has the type ((a -> Bottom) -> Bottom) -> a. Looks suspiciously like the type of the "shift" operator in delimited continuations.
01:03:10 <shachaf> And does this have to do with linearity specifically?
01:03:37 <tswett> Mm. In Control.Monad.CC, it's p b -> ((m a -> m b) -> m b) -> m a. The first argument, p b, just indicates which limit you're using.
01:04:55 <tswett> And yeah, I think this does have to do with linearity specifically. Like, in linear lambda calculus, Cont Bottom is essentially the identity.
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01:07:14 <tswett> So what's this going to look like. There's this function cancel :: ((a -> Bottom) -> Bottom) -> a. So the entire calculation is going to look like f (cancel g), where f :: a -> r and g :: (a -> Bottom) -> Bottom.
01:07:30 <tswett> The function "cancel" is magically aware of both f and g. It has to produce something of type r.
01:08:11 <tswett> Well, this is easy if you assume Bottom = r.
01:08:24 <zzo38> shachaf: Port 194 is standard, although usually much higher numbered port are used such as 6667 and numbers near it.
01:08:59 <tswett> Which actually seems like a perfectly defensible assumption, because Bottom is the "most inconvenient possible type": it cannot be obtained, and, once obtained, it cannot be disposed of.
01:09:14 <tswett> So it could be anything.
01:10:27 <tswett> (Isn't it weird how when people in this channel flip three coins, they almost always come up HTH?)
01:16:17 <shachaf> tswett: two of them are double-headed coins and one is a double-tailed coin hth
01:20:57 <zzo38> In linear logic, I think the dual of X is the same as (X -o Bottom) because bottom is the unit for par and implication is done by the dual of left side, par, right, so dual(X) par Bottom = dual(X) so ((X -o Bottom) -o Bottom) can also X.
01:21:15 <tswett> Yeah, that's one interpretation.
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01:27:47 <tswett> Some of the linear lambda calculus is described here: http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/lineartaste/lineartaste-revised.pdf
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02:10:00 <oerjan> `learn nooodl is the correct spelling
02:13:07 <Sgeo_> Being told that I probably got ripped off :/
02:13:32 <HackEgo> nooooodl is the correct spelling
02:14:10 <Sgeo_> In particular, that the 650M sucks
02:19:29 <oerjan> wait, that's not the amount of ram in your very expensive new machine? because if so, then yes, you have been.
02:20:21 <oerjan> (it's only slightly more than my frequently thrashing previous laptop had...)
02:20:34 <Sgeo_> Dual nVidia GeForce GT 650 M
02:20:50 <oerjan> aha. just the gpu then?
02:21:06 <Sgeo_> Yeah. And apparently it's not so great?
02:21:29 <oerjan> wait the sticker on my new laptop says approximately that, except 635M :P
02:22:05 <Sgeo_> "Lenovo IdeaPad Y500 (59359559) Notebook Intel Core i7 3630QM(2.40GHz) 15.6" 16GB Memory DDR3 1600 16GB SSD 1TB HDD 5400rpm Dual NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M SLI"
02:22:11 <oerjan> *this sticker (it has more)
02:22:32 <Sgeo_> Paid 1159 for that, a few hundred more in warranty
02:23:28 <oerjan> i know what i got wasn't the top model, anyway
02:24:27 <shachaf> i hear that it's a bad idea to buy a Lenovo fooPad for foo /= Think
02:24:34 <Sgeo_> <ThoughtA> 650M SLI with a 3630QM is a little pants-on-head stupid though
02:24:44 <Fiora> I wonder why they have 650M SLI, that seems a little weird
02:24:53 <Fiora> like, two small cards vs one big one (there must be some good reason?)
02:25:07 <Fiora> I remember the 680M being incredibly expensive, I guess that could be why
02:29:42 <Sgeo_> Would I at least have a chance of replacing the graphics card myself?
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03:47:47 <Sgeo_> http://type.method.ac/
03:47:51 <Sgeo_> Kern Type, the kerning game
03:48:58 <Sgeo_> It's kind of broken for me, but then again a lot of stuff is broken for me, blah
03:51:27 <shachaf> hm i got 100/100 on gargantuan
03:51:32 <shachaf> i think their scoring is broken!!
03:51:54 <Sgeo_> coppro, was that sarcastic? Because if you know why stuff is broken in my browser, please tell me
03:53:22 <Bike> http://www.bulletproofexec.com/how-to-make-your-coffee-bulletproof-and-your-morning-too/
03:55:36 <Sgeo_> And here I was hoping that bulletproof coffee would protect me from bullets.
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04:39:07 <shachaf> help how do i parametricity
04:46:52 <Sgeo_> I just watched an animation that's 13 years old
04:49:44 <shachaf> you know the thing where you accidentally stumble onto a mathoverflow page?
04:50:30 <shachaf> hey Bike how do i parametricity
04:50:30 <Sgeo_> http://www.userfriendly.org/animation/episode1.html
04:50:39 <Sgeo_> I probably first watched this over a decade ago
04:50:59 <Bike> shachaf: theta_1, theta_2, etc
04:51:45 <Gracenotes> I don't have bulletproof coffee, but I put heavy cream in black tea
04:51:55 <Gracenotes> perhaps I should put butter in instead
04:52:02 <shachaf> Gracenotes's greatest weakness.
04:52:10 <shachaf> Now we know where to shoot!
05:09:06 <augur> elliott: you're like a grownup now arent you
05:09:25 <augur> whats your favorite beer
05:10:19 <augur> well, sam smiths is worth looking into. i think ive only disliked their lager, for blandness
05:11:33 <zzo38> Would you have some idea about the format of "MID files" for Z-machine? I have the MID files for only one game (Sherlock), and all of them seem mostly the same: A note on command on channel 0 with velocity 64, some 0xFF command (possibly a delay?), and a note on command on channel 0 with velocity 0 (which is treated as a note off, due to the MIDI specification).
05:11:54 <Bike> elliott: how drunk are you right now
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05:12:44 <zzo38> The only documentation I could find says it consists of a 16-bit length followed by a "sequence of commands"; it says it might have something to do with MIDI, but doesn't quite make it very clear. It also says the third byte of the sequence of commands tells it what note to play; it looks to me like it is actually the second byte which does that.
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05:25:01 <augur> Bike: elliott might be, on non-beer. i can assure you that i am, however.
05:26:22 <Bike> not drunk enough imo
05:26:46 <augur> Bike: im like three pints in at least.
05:27:03 <augur> ,aybe more? probably more. its hard to tell.
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05:33:06 <zzo38> The left speaker on my computer isn't working for some reason.
05:34:00 <oerjan> elliott: yay i solved my cabal install problem. turns out it only went wrong when running from inside winghci and worked fine on a real command line (after wiping out and repairing the database mess caused by the first attempt)
05:35:11 <oerjan> on the negative side, this of course will delay my switching to linux.
05:37:08 <oerjan> partially my problem was caused by the awkwardness in windows 8 of _getting_ to a command line, which caused me to start cabal from inside winghci in the first place. but now i've made a shortcut for it.
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06:09:40 <zzo38> oerjan: It is easy to get the command-line on Windows 8. Push Windows+R and then type cmd.exe
06:09:51 <zzo38> Same as Windows 7 and XP.
06:11:05 <zzo38> Luckily that still works on XP and all later version of Windows I have worked with on other computers. So does ALT+SPACE, ALT+F4, ALT+TAB, and all those other commands; they still continue to work just fine.
06:12:51 <oerjan> well i never learned the Windows+R shortcut before, or at least never remembered it.
06:13:12 <Bike> that's a useful tric.
06:13:12 <oerjan> because it was easier to remember just going to the start menu
06:14:46 <zzo38> It looks like really confusing, but actually most of the same keyboard commands still work, even when running full-screen programs.
06:16:59 <zzo38> I don't know all of the programs in Windows 8 (my own computer doesn't have Windows 8), although it seems there are many full-screen programs; you can still push ALT+F4 to close a program and ALT+TAB to switch between them, even though they changed around all of the GUI stuff.
06:17:37 <myndzi> you can probably still press ctrl+insert to copy and shift+insert to paste
06:17:43 <myndzi> MS likes their backwards compatibility
06:18:20 <oerjan> oh no, coppro is melting!
06:19:18 <zzo38> myndzi: Well, having the same keyboard commands work (and retaining cmd.exe; I am glad they did that and didn't force you to use PowerShell instead, which I almost expected them to do) is really the only reason I was able to figure out their computer in order to set it up for them.
06:19:40 <myndzi> gimme back dat command.com dammit
06:19:46 <myndzi> i wanna edit my autoexec.bat
06:20:02 <myndzi> powershell has a lt of good things about it
06:20:08 <myndzi> but error messages is NOT one
06:20:21 <myndzi> i don't want a fuckin stack trace to tell me 'command not found'
06:21:02 <zzo38> Command.com is a DOS program though; it won't run in 64-bit Windows. You can still use a PC emulator to run DOS programs, though.
06:24:07 <HackEgo> 701) <Taneb> I swear my dreams are becoming increasingly rave + computer science oriented
06:24:15 <HackEgo> 93) <Quas_NaArt> Hooray! <Quas_NaArt> I'm an idiot.
06:24:15 <myndzi> you kids and your "windows"
06:31:29 <zzo38> Do you know what ".was-mid" files are?
06:31:47 <shachaf> Is it the case that a ".was-mid" file was a ".mid" file?
06:37:45 <zzo38> It doesn't appear to be, but it does seem to have something to do with MIDI. It doesn't use the ".mid" format, though; the only thing in the header is the length of the file.
06:39:51 <zzo38> The only ones I have seem to consist of a single note on channel zero of velocity 64 (there isn't any program change command), a delay (I don't actually know what it is, but it appears to consist of 0xFF followed by a 16-bit word; I assume it is a delay), and a note off (actually a note on with velocity zero, which the MIDI specification says is the same as a note off).
06:42:19 <zzo38> I don't know anything else about them (or how the delay is supposed to work), so I was wondering if someone else know.
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07:48:49 <FreeFull> zzo38: Discovering what program generated/opened them would be helpful
07:49:05 <Taneb> I am on the Isle of Wight
07:49:20 <oerjan> oh dear, wights are dangerous
07:49:44 <zzo38> FreeFull: Yes, it would help. Unfortunately, I don't know.
07:49:51 <Taneb> The place is full of them!
07:50:35 <oerjan> don't let them touch you! i think!
07:50:44 <FreeFull> zzo38: What is the creation date on them?
07:51:12 <oerjan> in other news, simon tatham still hasn't fixed that thing where undo doesn't work across accidentally pressing n
07:51:49 <fizzie> Taneb: You should try to move to the Isle of Wraith, instead; you can gain a lot of levels there.
07:52:24 <Taneb> Unfortunately my level is still quite
07:52:49 <Taneb> Low, I was aiming for the Isle of Rat
07:52:53 <zzo38> The date on them is 1994, although they were actually created before that.
07:53:51 <FreeFull> Although could have still been a 16-bit Windows program
07:54:19 <FreeFull> zzo38: You could write a converter to mid to see what they sound like
07:54:34 <Taneb> Stupid phone keyboard
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07:56:29 <Taneb> Does F-E+V=2 work for solids not topologically isomorphic to spheres?
07:57:39 <zzo38> FreeFull: Well, from the information I have I think they were used on Amiga computers, as part of a game.
07:58:03 <FreeFull> zzo38: Oh, that's good to know
07:58:33 <zzo38> There are also the audio files, and the format of those is documented; however, the ".was-mid" files are unknown; like I said the ones I have are all very similar and all are 11 bytes long.
07:58:51 <FreeFull> I'm going to see if there are any .was-mid files on aminet
07:59:34 <oerjan> Taneb: see euler characteristic
08:00:03 <Taneb> oerjan, I alas am on my tiny phone
08:00:11 <elliott> oerjan: how about switching to another browser at least
08:00:25 <oerjan> Taneb: let's say that the 2 tends to vary a bit hth
08:00:47 <Taneb> The one with the voice "recognition"
08:01:35 <oerjan> Taneb: torus has 0 for example
08:01:40 <Taneb> Oh, the book I'm reading gets onto this
08:02:26 <FreeFull> zzo38: I'd go ask over at pouet or an amiga forum
08:03:51 <Taneb> Yeah, it's talking about Euler characteristics now
08:05:18 <Taneb> "This way lies madness"
08:06:41 <Taneb> (on trying to define the concept of a hole)
08:06:53 <FreeFull> Did you know, there is a number A for which floor(A^3n) is prime for all positive integers n?
08:07:10 <Bike> can't you just say something about cuts and be done with it
08:07:14 <fizzie> Oh no! AltaVista is closing tomorrow! How can we find anything on the Internets any more?
08:07:37 <oerjan> FreeFull: rings a bell
08:08:01 <Taneb> FreeFull, is that number computable?
08:08:32 <fizzie> elliott: http://yahoo.tumblr.com/post/54125001066/keeping-our-focus-on-whats-next "Please see below for product closure details and dates." "AltaVista (July 8, 2013)"
08:09:58 <Bike> why does yahoo have a tumblr
08:10:00 <FreeFull> Taneb: If the Riemann Hypothesis is true, yes
08:10:26 <fizzie> Bike: I think it's because they're hip?
08:10:29 <elliott> fizzie: apparently AltaVista is "powered by Bing".
08:10:36 <elliott> so I guess it's been dead a long time
08:10:56 <Taneb> "Now we can calculate g by drawing faces and so forth on our solids" so forth being moustaches, glasses, goatees, etc?
08:10:59 <Bike> "If you’re a publisher and currently using Yahoo! WebPlayer on your site," who is this even written for
08:11:15 <Bike> To stay up on all your favorite celebrity news, check out Yahoo! India OMG!.
08:11:53 <Bike> "It’s a big day here at Xobni. We’ve been acquired by Yahoo! At this moment, we’re unpacking our boxes from San Francisco and settling in to the new Sunnyvale space at Yahoo! HQ." i love how i've never heard of these companies and their names are incomprehensible.
08:12:42 <fizzie> Bike: Xobni is "inbox" backwards.
08:12:49 <FreeFull> "Yahoo! announced its intention to acquire Tumblr on May 20, 2013, for approximately $1.1 billion. The deal closed on June 20."
08:12:50 <fizzie> You can certainly comprehend that.
08:12:52 <Bike> well they own flickr too but they didn't make a photo album announcing this
08:13:01 <Bike> fizzie: you overestimate me, imo.
08:13:42 <elliott> I searched "help" in AltaVista and one of the related searches was "depression help" and now I'm depressed.
08:13:50 <elliott> imo, gonna take a risk and claim this is ironic.
08:15:38 <Taneb> Apparently "Kleine bottle" is a pun in German
08:15:47 <oerjan> take one alanisette and call me in the morning
08:16:11 <elliott> fizzie: In December 2010, a Yahoo! employee leaked PowerPoint slides indicating that the search engine would be shut down as part of a consolidation at Yahoo!.[16] In May 2011, the shutdown commenced, and all results began to be returned on a Yahoo! page.
08:16:15 <elliott> so they're shutting down, um, the main page and logo.
08:17:26 <fizzie> elliott: And the logo is no longer the mountain logo either, so I guess that's a relief.
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08:18:01 <fizzie> No, no, I just heard middle age doesn't begin before 36.
08:19:36 <Taneb> FreeFull flask/surface
08:21:07 <FreeFull> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7od4JA2Y274 There is an old Polish show about someone in his middle age
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08:28:51 <ion> A GUI interface using Visual Basic to track an IP Address http://guivbip.codeplex.com/
08:32:56 <oerjan> um isn't that, like, an ancient meme from some tv show
08:36:15 <Taneb> Aaaaah the next chapter is about the normal distribution
08:38:25 <oerjan> someone take backup of Taneb's brain, stat!
08:39:04 <Taneb> Don't say that word!
08:40:01 <ion> I see what you did there.
08:40:16 <fizzie> I love the normal distribution, it's so... normal...
08:41:23 <Gracenotes> the citizens of my country are non-normal probability distributions with means and variances
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08:41:36 <Gracenotes> unfortunately, they are collectively normal :(
08:42:51 <fizzie> Does the "law of large numbers" mean that people who are... materially robust... are more likely to be normal?
08:43:49 <fizzie> (I think I mixed up the law of large numbers and the central limit theorem, there. Aw.)
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08:44:28 <Gracenotes> well it's not like statistics is an exact science!
08:45:05 <fizzie> In my defense, the central limit theorem involves large numbers of things.
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08:45:27 <Gracenotes> (rather, science is approximately just statistics, in the real world...)
08:46:32 <Gracenotes> well, you could do science without in-depth statistics. just require every study to give either a yes or no answer, and take the consensus of studies.
08:46:45 <Taneb> I had a not very good stats teacher for the harder part of stats I learnt
08:47:38 <fizzie> Isn't that pretty close to "you could do science without statistics by pushing the statistical analysis from the scientists to the readers"?
08:50:01 <Gracenotes> The yes/no is partly decided externally, rather by the researchers (although they can make their best case).
08:51:34 <Gracenotes> Statistics affords a notion of certainty, though, so rather than taking a plurality, you take a maximum; the best most certain replicated paper and accept that.
08:54:52 <FreeFull> Readers don't know how to do statistical analysis though
08:55:22 <Gracenotes> I'm not sure if some scientists do >.> ...or readers
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10:41:48 <HackEgo> QuackQuacker: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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10:56:54 <Koen_> I'm gonna need some context to answer that question elliott
10:57:24 <Koen_> well I don't know, that tends to happen a lot this days
10:57:37 <Koen_> something with the client must be wrong
10:57:48 <Koen_> it only happens when I start it the first time
11:15:13 <oerjan> elliott: hey steve is in ##nomic wondering if anyone wants to ask him about The Old Days hth
11:18:46 <elliott> oerjan: my only question is when he'll start using hth
11:19:12 <oerjan> i haven't started infecting him yet hth
11:19:38 <elliott> oerjan: are you still using IE
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11:23:27 <elliott> oerjan: you can delay the nagging by picking a new featured language >:)
11:40:31 <oerjan> it's only me and steve talking in ##nomic and i'm too tired to keep up conversation :(
11:43:45 <elliott> oerjan: tell him you need a nap. old people understand.
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15:29:30 <fizzie> Why don't they make three-legged washing machines? Would be a lot easier to level, and never be unstable.
15:31:17 <fizzie> Guess it'd tilt easier, though...
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17:33:23 <Lymia> fizzie, there's no reason for the thing to not be triangular in shape
17:33:35 <Lymia> Besides most rooms being rectangular :p
17:35:58 <coppro> also because the interior is cylindrical
17:36:44 <Lymia> I see no problem i packing triangular shapes together... assuming a house with proper geometry, at least :p
17:40:15 <fizzie> I was thinking they could turn the drum so that the axis of the cylinder is vertical, after which it'd fit reasonably neatly in a triangle, but I suppose then you couldn't get similar tumbling action.
17:44:19 <coppro> yeah, front-load washers are better
17:44:43 <fizzie> All the top-load washers I've seen have had the drum in the same configuration as the front-loaders.
17:44:55 <fizzie> There's just been a door in the side of the drum.
17:45:47 <fizzie> Our old one lacked the "stop the drum so that the door points upwards" feature, so you had to manually rotate it around if it didn't happen to stop the right way around. (It never stopped the right way around.)
17:46:05 <fizzie> Front-load washers are still better, though, because you can stare at them, mesmerized.
17:48:15 <coppro> Most cheap home washers here have vertical drums
17:48:45 <zzo38> There are some things Infocom defined but are unknown. One is the "picture font" in the Z-machine (font 2); I have recently figured out how that works and have implemented it in my Z-machine interpreter. However, there are some things that are still unknown.
17:49:59 <zzo38> One thing which remains unknown is the format of eight extension table words that were never used, implemented, or documented, beyond a short description of each that Infocom wrote.
17:51:40 <zzo38> They are four "mouse menu tables" (directions, inventory, frequent verbs, frequent words), a status word which the game is supposed to write to indicate which menus have been updated (I don't know which bit corresponds to which), a button event routine, a joystick event routine, a button status word, and a joystick status word.
17:52:10 <zzo38> It is unclear whether this means mouse buttons or joystick buttons or what, and the format of these status words is also unclear (all that is known is that they are sixteen bits each). Do you have any ideas?
17:54:43 <zzo38> There appears to be no way to know other than to guess.
17:55:01 <zzo38> Therefore, more people who make possible guesses and then see what seems better.
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17:59:10 <zzo38> I have asked elsewhere too, but also see if anyone in here also has any possible idea of what these things mean.
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18:21:58 <AnotherTest> I somehow feel I'm going to get in trouble by upgrading to wheezy...
18:22:47 <coppro> pikhq: are you married yet?
18:23:49 <fizzie> Is pikhq getting married? Is #esoteric invited to the wedding?
18:26:55 <Koen_> is pikhq getting married with a gnome?
18:30:17 <fizzie> Is the wedding logic written mostly in JavaScript? I heard that was something they did in Gnome 3.
18:31:33 <AnotherTest> I somehow fear I'll have to turn on gnome classic
18:34:44 <fizzie> AnotherTest: GNOME Shell, the major UI component in GNOME 3, is, I think, largely written in JavaScript.
18:35:12 <fizzie> Also there was the hulabaloo about making JavaScript the "official recommended language" of GNOME, though that didn't really mean much.
18:36:03 <AnotherTest> what's with the let's-rewrite-everything-in-javascript-hype
18:36:38 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I think they were more about recommending it for new code.
18:36:43 <pikhq> AnotherTest: Well, you see, Javascript has become the universal bytecode.
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18:41:04 <pikhq> Well, you see, WEB WEB WEB WEB therefore WEB
18:41:18 <zzo38> I really think you shoud use compiled programming languages when they will do.
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18:57:19 <Gracenotes> this trend couldn't happen any sooner. nay, it is just in time.
19:03:02 <zzo38> Still, I think it isn't as good as some compiled programming language such as C. JavaScript isn't a particularly bad interpreted language, though.
19:04:23 <Sgeo_> How difficult is this as a proof-of-work? Determining a seed that has a specified feature at spawn (e.g. spawn area covered in lava)
19:09:11 <Phantom_Hoover> that's heavily dependent on mc's terrain gen internals then
19:09:12 <fizzie> Do you folks happen to know if you can fit a letter-sized magazine (not very thick) inside a C4 envelope?
19:16:36 <zzo38> Unfortunately I don't know. If I had such things I might try, but I don't know what C4 envelope is.
19:23:23 <zzo38> (I don't know the names of the different envelopes.)
19:23:39 <fizzie> It's one of the ISO 216 paper sizes; an envelope that reasonably fits an A4 sheet.
19:24:38 <fizzie> (Technically, the size of Cn is the geometric mean of An and Bn, while the size of Bn is the geometric mean of An and A(n-1).)
19:25:11 <fizzie> Based on the numbers, I think it might fit; letter is only 5.9 mm wider than A4, and a bit shorter.
19:30:12 <Koen_> are you mailing C4? I think you can get arrested for that!
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20:27:31 <Taneb> Someone made a post about art styles on Tumblr and replied "That's a partially ordered set!"
20:27:38 <Taneb> I blame you for this
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20:31:25 <Taneb> (okay, to be fair, the original poster did pretty much describe art styles as a partially ordered set, and I appreciate shachaf teaching me all that stuff)
20:31:33 <Taneb> ( shachaf++ shachaf++ )
20:38:52 <Gracenotes> :t \shachaf -> ((shachaf ++ shachaf) ++)
20:51:23 <fizzie> > (\shachaf -> ((shachaf ++ shachaf) ++)) "sha" "f"
20:53:59 <Taneb> The book I am reading is proving very interesting
20:58:13 <Taneb> For pretty much the first time ever I am seriously tempted to ring up my local bookshop and ask them to order in some of the books from the "Further Reading" section
20:58:24 <Taneb> Especially the bit about topology I found pretty interesting
21:01:12 <Taneb> In Pursuit of the Unknown: 17 Equations That Changed the World by Ian Stewart
21:02:07 <Taneb> It's a whistlestop tour around various realms of mathematics and a bit of physics
21:02:42 <Taneb> Not enjoying the current chapter, on the Fourier transform
21:04:27 <Taneb> Well, he wrote it as V - E + F = 2
21:04:45 <Taneb> Then introduced topology from its proof
21:05:44 <Bike> what's wrong with fourier
21:08:11 <Taneb> Bike, he introduced it too fast and I wasn't already that familiar with it and also I fell asleep
21:08:18 <Taneb> I may start the chapter over
21:08:43 <Bike> sleep is hard.
21:09:46 <Taneb> I find sleep too easy
21:10:40 <Bike> fourier's awesome srry
21:12:17 <fizzie> Fourier's, like, so 1800s.
21:13:17 <shachaf> Or how am I blamed here, exactly?
21:13:26 <Taneb> shachaf: "reblogged and added a comment"
21:13:42 <shachaf> Taneb: I mean: Did you drop the word "I"?
21:13:43 <Taneb> And you taught me about partially ordered sets in such a way that they stuck in my mind
21:13:59 <Taneb> shachaf: yes, yes I did
21:14:09 <shachaf> Anyway, since when did I talk to you about partially ordered sets?
21:14:13 <Taneb> Which I realise completely changes the meaning of the sentence
21:14:37 <Taneb> It came up in a bunch of other things, mainly as an example of a category
21:15:07 <shachaf> I think I assumed you already knew whwat it meant, though.
21:15:33 <shachaf> Anyway, the "cool kind of partially" ordered sets "is semilattices".
21:17:28 <Taneb> I don't think art styles form a semilattice
21:18:28 <shachaf> Well, at least the poset category of art styles has a terminal object.
21:19:21 <Gracenotes> does that include an arrow labelled libcaca?
21:26:55 <Sgeo_> Some place where I'm an op, apparently
21:27:42 <Sgeo_> Oh, katla mistyped
21:28:46 <shachaf> fully illuminated ranches of armenia
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22:32:40 <kmc> have you all seen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit_Through_the_Gift_Shop
22:32:58 <kmc> it's a pretty #esoteric movie
22:37:41 <coppro> how can a movie be #esoteric?
22:37:55 <coppro> also, does anyone else in here know anything about quantum computation?
22:39:21 <Bike> i know that i should defer to someone with a copy of aaronson's book *ahem fiora*
22:47:16 <coppro> quantum computation is weird
22:48:42 <katla> not compared to the stuff #esoteric usually deals with
22:55:54 <Sgeo_> Banksy directed a movie?
22:56:11 <Sgeo_> How does one do that while staying secretive? I thought Banksy stayed secretive
22:59:50 <Bike> well, directors are already fuckin crazy
23:00:00 <Bike> also he also has like, his own online store and website already.
23:01:31 <kmc> Nielsen and Chuang is a good book on quantum computing
23:01:54 <kmc> Sgeo_: when he's depicted in the film, he's wearing a hoodie over his face, and has a voice scrambler
23:01:59 <kmc> I don't know about the directing part
23:02:22 <kmc> presumably he has trusted associates who know his identity or have at least seen his face
23:03:43 <Sgeo_> Oh, I forgot it was kmc who linked, I thought I was randomly bringing up Banksy for no reason
23:04:14 <Gracenotes> kmc: is this anything like a Mary Sue of Banksy?
23:04:30 <Bike> you mean a short story where he fucks spock?
23:04:59 <kmc> Sgeo_: amazing
23:07:44 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought they'd found banksy and he was some boring middle class guy
23:08:41 <Bike> boring middle class guy pride!!
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23:47:07 <Bike> this music video is made of ansi art.
23:50:16 <FreeFull> Ansi art doesn't survive mpeg encoding very well
23:52:16 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: if banksy did not exist it would be necessary to invent him
00:15:49 <Sgeo_> What's that demo thing?
00:15:57 <Sgeo_> For the ... something or other
00:16:33 * Sgeo_ installs bb to check
00:17:38 <kmc> Sgeo_ stops making sense
00:17:58 <shachaf> kmc: it's an aalib demo program, not related to breaking bad, hth
00:18:50 <Sgeo_> Wonder if someone put it on YouTube, although that would be crap
00:19:21 <Sgeo_> Bike, it's a video made of ANSI art to show off a library for encoding videos as ANSI art
00:19:44 <Sgeo_> aalib might do more than that
00:20:41 <Sgeo_> YouTubed version of ASCII rendition of a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ukhOAUseKY
00:22:03 <Sgeo_> Are there any Linux distros that don't have bb?
00:22:30 <Sgeo_> YouTube is great for linking to Windows friends
00:23:03 <shachaf> I made bb run on Windows once.
00:23:15 <shachaf> It involved Cygwin and a lot of annoyance, I think.
00:23:23 <shachaf> (Getting the audio working was the annoyance part.)
00:24:22 <Sgeo_> That's the name of that game I forgot the name of!
00:26:39 <shachaf> Hmm, running bb crashed my computer.
00:27:22 <Sgeo_> Bleh, I want to be able to play Koules on Windows
00:28:03 <Sgeo_> Maybe someone should port it to HTML5+Javascript
00:28:10 <Sgeo_> Was going to say Flash, but Flash sucks
00:29:00 <kmc> shachaf: hax
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01:18:20 <Fiora> bike: nya? did someone say aaaronson book computing fiora something or other
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01:21:08 <Fiora> 18:18 < Fiora> bike: nya? did someone say aaaronson book computing fiora something or other
01:30:46 <Bike> coppro asked about quantum computing.
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02:36:57 <kmc> overheard: "Say what you will about that circus, but I still have a huge hard-on"
02:38:02 <Bike> cirque de soleil is like that for me too
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04:36:54 <kmc> oh: "a one-hit pony"
04:37:21 <shachaf> Does "oh" stand for "overheard" or for the word "oh"?
04:38:28 <kmc> 'overheard' in this case
04:43:05 <shachaf> /ignore is a bad solution to irc problems
04:45:04 <Bike> did you say that in response to somebody i have /ignore'd?
04:46:35 <oerjan> "06:46 Ignoring ACTIONS TOPICS from is"
04:48:29 <oerjan> well that's what irssi responded to your fine command above
04:58:50 <oerjan> @tell Taneb Fourier is what makes computer tomography work. I keep finding this amazing.
05:00:06 <fizzie> oerjan: Chirplet transforms are where it's at hth
05:02:06 <oerjan> @tell Taneb *computed, apparently
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05:48:25 <Sgeo_> I estimate the probability of an `olist tomorrow to be in the range [0,1]
05:51:32 <oerjan> we'd like a smaller range twh
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05:53:27 <Sgeo_> (0,1) is probably reasonable and is a smaller range hth
05:54:02 <shachaf> Sgeo_: imo that range is no smaller hth
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06:03:47 <Bike> Sure, if you're a coward.
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09:12:11 <shachaf> Taneb: You should do ion's exercises with Mu and Nu. Learn about fixed points and things.
09:12:56 <Taneb> Remember how I said that I was going to read things from the Further Reading section of this book?
09:13:21 <Taneb> It has no further reading section!
09:14:08 <shachaf> 14:01 <Taneb> In Pursuit of the Unknown: 17 Equations That Changed the World by Ian Stewart
09:14:12 <Taneb> 17 equations that changed the world by Ian Stewart
09:14:34 <shachaf> well, you could read other books instead
09:15:53 <Taneb> Although the book is cheating- chapter 11 has 4 equations
09:16:19 <shachaf> Maybe only one of those 4 equations changed the world.
09:16:42 <Taneb> There are 17 chapters
09:17:06 <Taneb> It's the Maxwell equations
09:17:46 <shachaf> Well, those didn't really change anything. They just described the world.
09:18:41 <Taneb> I think the title is using "changed"in a more metaphorical sense
09:19:28 <shachaf> Now, Newton sure did change the world.
09:19:51 <shachaf> If it hadn't been for that jerk inventing we'd still all be flying around.
09:20:34 <Taneb> Newton got two chapters to himself!
09:21:41 <oerjan> Taneb: i think you _can_ write maxwell's equations as a single one with the appropriate 4-vector formulation.
09:22:00 <Taneb> oerjan, fair enough
09:22:50 <Taneb> Also, I reread the chapter on Fourier transforms and it seemed much nicer this time
09:25:29 <ion> shachaf: Yeah, i have gobby.
09:25:48 <oerjan> shachaf: no one is disputing that newton was a jerk hth
09:26:01 <shachaf> oerjan: did newton discover jerk
09:26:22 <shachaf> i doubt he discovered acceleration
09:26:35 <oerjan> no, galileo had that one down
09:26:47 <shachaf> ion: if you want we can go through things in it in gobby, if you haven't figured everything out by now
09:26:48 <ion> shachaf: The progress so far. No Nu NatF yet, no conversion between anything either. https://gist.github.com/ion1/5947427
09:27:30 <ion> shachaf: Thanks, i’ll ask you about that later. I’ll let my nephews do some minecrafting on my computer now.
09:28:06 <ion> I have no idea, but it let me define zero, succ' and toInt nicely in the end. :-P
09:28:26 <ion> And i was thinking perhaps i’d try to define the same functions for Nu as well.
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09:29:55 <shachaf> I think you might be going down a misleading path.
09:29:59 <shachaf> Or, at least, an unusual path!
09:30:46 <ion> I’ll get some help from you when i come back, but now: nephews. :-)
09:36:43 <Taneb> Marconi developed radio on THIS VERY ISLAND!!
09:37:18 <olsner> the island of ... hexham?
09:38:50 <shachaf> something is weird about unicode
09:39:04 <shachaf> 1F0AA PLAYING CARD TEN OF SPADES [<U+1F0AA>]
09:39:04 <shachaf> 1F0AB PLAYING CARD JACK OF SPADES [<U+1F0AB>]
09:39:04 <shachaf> 1F0AC PLAYING CARD KNIGHT OF SPADES [<U+1F0AC>]
09:39:04 <shachaf> 1F0AD PLAYING CARD QUEEN OF SPADES [<U+1F0AD>]
09:39:04 <shachaf> 1F0AE PLAYING CARD KING OF SPADES [<U+1F0AE>]
09:39:14 <shachaf> is it just me or is there something... comissing
09:40:24 <Taneb> Oh, come on. That's an inequality, not an equation!
09:41:10 <shachaf> Taneb: an equation is nothing but an isomorphism in a poset category hth
09:42:15 <lifthrasiir> shachaf: did you mean there are 56 and not 52?
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09:50:35 <ion> shachaf: Ok, they had to leave already. I’m free.
09:52:08 <ion> shachaf: Oh, it turns out they have a bit more time. Back to Minecraft.
09:52:38 <shachaf> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nibling
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10:41:03 <ion> shachaf: Ok, now they left the computer for real.
10:48:05 <shachaf> I haven't used gobby 0.5 before.
10:48:08 <shachaf> New protocol and everything.
10:49:22 <olsner> hmm, does it have undo yet?
10:49:31 <ion> Apparently yes
10:51:26 <ion> https://images.4chan.org/diy/src/1373067876565.jpg
10:52:48 <ion> Thinehq. “You didn't log in in the past six months to the AppDB. Please log in or your account will automatically be deleted in one month. http://appdb.winehq.org/account.php?sCmd=login” Because the SQL row takes so much disk space.
10:53:13 <ion> I wonder if that means my contributions would be deleted as well?
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13:10:58 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Emotebatch
13:11:04 <elliott> does shubshub have a new name now
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14:00:39 <ion> https://twitter.com/fisa_court
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16:30:53 <kmc> shachaf: it's weird how the way you write a static method in Rust is you just don't have a parameter named 'self'
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17:01:04 <elliott> has anyone used digitalocean.com? seems like I could get twice the RAM and disk space and 1.5x the transfer for the same price I am paying for Linode now
17:01:09 <elliott> which makes me a bit suspicious :P
17:02:03 <olsner> since linode are famous enough that I've heard of them, it would make sense for them to be overpriced
17:03:24 <elliott> I guess they don't have IPv6 and I would have to deal with US latency for IRC
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17:05:51 <ion> Someone i know uses this. http://afterburst.com/unmetered-vps
17:06:37 <elliott> hmm, that's less RAM than I have now and I think I've heard bad things about OpenVZ?
17:06:54 <fizzie> I'm using Tilaa these days, which I've probably mentioned. (But I'm not using it for anything, so I can't say all that much about it.)
17:06:56 <elliott> I mean, I want to move off Linode partially because of the security issues, but I am lazy enough that I don't really want to do so for worse performance
17:07:18 <elliott> fizzie: oh, I think I was going to look at them
17:08:20 <elliott> fizzie: this is hard if you don't know how much a euro is
17:09:19 <elliott> fizzie: wow, 4 gigs of RAM for 17 pounds a month? this pricing is weird
17:11:31 <fizzie> Oh, they've removed the traffic restrictions?
17:11:52 <ion> http://www.click2houston.com/news/kfc-threatens-lawsuit-over-hitler-chicken-restaurant/-/1735978/20875398/-/2clb8u/-/index.html
17:11:57 <fizzie> There used to be a quota for outgoing stuff.
17:12:25 <fizzie> I'm using the extra-cheap 256M plan they've apparently stopped selling.
17:12:42 <fizzie> "-- since you just can't be very productive with just 256Mb of RAM or 10GB of disk space --"
17:12:50 <fizzie> Excuse me but I'm being very productive!
17:13:03 <fizzie> Somewhere around Amsterdam.
17:13:20 <fizzie> (I'm thinking their pricing is because of DRUGZ.)
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17:13:28 <elliott> well I thought digitalocean sounded too good to be true but this seems rather implausibly cheap even by those standards
17:14:01 <elliott> I wonder what the ping is like
17:14:19 <elliott> apparently I have 35 ms ping to my server right now
17:14:26 <elliott> but I remember it being as low as 15, maybe it's the wifi
17:14:31 <fizzie> You can try pinging eos.zem.fi too, I think it should answer.
17:14:43 <elliott> my reason for thinking that thinking it's wifi made no sense made no sense
17:15:02 <ion> I have a latency of 1.28 ms to my server.
17:15:21 <elliott> fizzie: how about you let me run irssi on your server as a test :P
17:16:11 <elliott> haha, and it only costs 51 pence extra a month to go from the storage I have now to doubling the storage, with tilaa
17:16:59 <fizzie> There was something slightly weird about the IPv6 stuff... as in, they configure a /96 network for each host, which is slightly iffy standards-wise -- you're not really supposed to have networks smaller than /64 -- but I guess that's not terribly important. (They also assign a single address out of a proper /64 for the server, so I don't use the optional /96.)
17:17:17 <fizzie> Oh, and the prices don't include VAT.
17:17:28 <elliott> all I want is for esolangs.org to be accessible via IPv6 :P
17:17:35 <fizzie> (I think that wasn't shown very clearly.)
17:17:48 <elliott> is this fancy dutch VAT, or
17:18:04 <fizzie> I don't quite recall how it goes, maybe I should look up the latest invoice.
17:19:13 <fizzie> There's a 21% VAT, which I think isn't any Finnish rate, so I suppose it's Dutch.
17:20:04 <fizzie> (So it's not *quite* as cheap as it might appear on the first glance. Unless you've got some kind of a corporation that can buy it VAT-free.)
17:20:12 <elliott> okay so I would pay a pound extra to quadruple my RAM
17:21:43 <elliott> well the catch is I have to use a VPS provider recommended to me by a speech recognition researcher
17:22:31 <kmc> ENLARGE YOUR RAM 400% TODAY
17:23:00 <elliott> need a VPS version of http://downloadmoreram.com
17:23:16 <elliott> wget http://downloadmoreram.com/server.ram
17:24:11 <ion> Are you sure? It might be down.
17:25:18 <fizzie> http://iss.astroviewer.net/ says it's somewhere above the Atlantic Ocean at the moment.
17:25:21 <ion> I wonder if the image is to scale? http://www.isstracker.com/
17:26:23 <Fiora> oh kmc and maybe anyone else: I linked this to bike the other day but maybe you might like it too
17:26:26 <Fiora> http://wearedata.watchdogs.com/start.php?locale=en-EN&city=london
17:26:47 <Fiora> it's a watch_dogs-style visualization of london made entirely out of public data (tweets, traffic lights, demographic data, building locations, etc)
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17:27:39 <Bike> fiora's such a corporate shill
17:27:41 -!- nortti- has changed nick to nortti.
17:27:50 <Fiora> yes I am actually paid by ubisoft to promote their games
17:27:59 <fizzie> There seem to be .kmz files that put the ISS into Google Earth.
17:28:00 <Fiora> (but seriously the game looked really cool okay)
17:28:12 <fizzie> (As in, show it in the software; not files that ram the station to the Earth owned by Google.)
17:28:38 <elliott> thank you for that important clarification, fizzie
17:30:18 <katla> hope youre having a good day
17:30:59 <Fiora> um... I played some kingdom hearts and went to work so I guess it's okay so far
17:32:48 <Bike> i like to imagine that at work you quickly switch between irc and kingdom hearts and your actual work whenever a manager walks by
17:33:33 <fizzie> Back in the good old days, games had a BOSS KEY that switched from the game screen to some generic "boring spreadsheet and bar plots" screen.
17:33:41 <fizzie> Or at least one game did.
17:33:56 <Bike> yeah, N has that too, mostly as a joke probably
17:33:57 <Fiora> I don't play kingdom hearts at work xD
17:34:32 <fizzie> http://www.switched.com/2010/03/08/cant-you-see-im-busy-game-cleverly-disguises-your-procrastin/ the first image is the craftiest.
17:34:43 <mnoqy> playing game at work sounds like a good way to add tension & heighten the experience to a whole new level
17:35:08 <elliott> the tension of being at work or the tension of playing a game
17:35:10 <Bike> really, if you play it right, kingdom hearts is basically a horror game
17:35:55 <mnoqy> elliott: the beauty is if you do it right they are one and the same
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19:21:25 <asdfasd_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7HhYE_ddtQ&feature=youtu.be
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19:36:25 <elliott> asdfasd_: you are GOMADWarrior right?
19:37:08 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~/.irssi/logs/freenode/#esoteric$ grep 186.222.47.192 *.log
19:37:08 <elliott> 2013-07-07.log:00:18:42 9/-?/!9/-g ;/GOMADWarriorg 8/[g3/bade2fc0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.222.47.192g8/]g has joined c#esotericc
19:37:11 <elliott> 2013-07-07.log:00:38:43 9/-?/!9/-g 3/GOMADWarriorg 8/[gbade2fc0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.222.47.1928/]g has left c#esotericc 8/[g8/]g
19:37:14 <elliott> 2013-07-08.log:20:21:22 9/-?/!9/-g ;/asdfasd_g 8/[g3/bade2fc0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.222.47.192g8/]g has joined c#esotericc
19:37:28 <elliott> that's also (a video of) the same game you've linked here several times in the past.
19:38:17 <elliott> asdfasd_: well, because I figure you're using another name so people don't realise it's you, so you can continue using the channel solely to talk about irrelevant things that nobody has expressed any interest in (e.g. trolling other channels, which already got you banned once). your denial seems to confirm that
19:38:50 <asdfasd_> irrelevant? you're calling my game irrelevant?
19:38:52 <elliott> if you have another plausible interpretation I'm open to considering it
19:40:02 <elliott> well, it's certainly off-topic, which is of course not necessarily a blocker to talking about it in #esoteric. but the only time it has come up here has seemingly been in linking it out of the blue and asking random questions about it that nobody seems interested in
19:40:16 <elliott> which wouldn't be a problem in itself, but combined with your other behaviour I find it a little dubious...
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19:45:06 <elliott> asdfasd_: actually it seems you are still in the ban list as 189.34.44.144 so I guess you have just been ban evading for however long?
19:45:42 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:45:45 <elliott> 2013-06-24.log:07:21:47 ^D9/-^D?/!^D9/-^Dg ^D3/asdfasd^Dg is now known as ^D;/GOMADWarrior^Dg
19:45:57 <Bike> and now you're doing it in other channels.
19:46:03 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
19:46:08 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*bade2fc0@*.186.222.47.192.
19:46:08 -!- elliott has kicked asdfasd_ asdfasd_.
19:46:16 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b GOMADWarrior*!*@*.
19:46:23 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
19:46:26 <kmc> yaaaaaaaaay don't evade bans
19:46:33 <elliott> Bike: I suppose I don't really have to ask what
19:46:42 <elliott> oh I should ban this nick too I guess
19:46:54 <elliott> even if another "asdfasd" might conceivably be innocent, whatever
19:46:57 <Taneb> Hold on... elliott has op?
19:46:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
19:47:06 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b asdfasd!*@*.
19:47:08 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b asdfasd_!*@*.
19:47:09 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
19:47:18 <Bike> Taneb: he took power in a recent coup
19:47:28 <matthiaskrgr> oh, you banned someone and he used webchat? clever ;)
19:47:37 <Bike> didn't you notice oerjan's decaying corpse
19:47:48 <Taneb> Where does the term "Hamming distance" come from?
19:48:07 <coppro> Taneb: mathematicians who like to joke about binary vectors a lot
19:48:18 <kmc> shachaf: so rust lets you do something like template specialization, e.g. struct ScriptView; struct Node<View> { ... }; impl Node<ScriptView> { ... }
19:48:19 <Fiora> Richard Hamming, I think
19:48:22 <elliott> Taneb: kmc stole my reveal on that one
19:48:27 <Bike> hamming's a cool guy. he has a lecture series on youtube.
19:48:28 <elliott> for which I can never forgive him
19:48:35 <Bike> talks about inventing coding theory and stuff.
19:48:44 <Fiora> Hamming windows, Hamming matrix, Hamming numbers, Hamming distance, Hamming bound, Hamming code
19:48:49 <kmc> the methods defined in that 'impl' block will only be available for Node<ScriptView>
19:48:51 <Bike> Hamming name scheme
19:49:10 <Fiora> he's really hogging so many of these names in math and CS
19:49:10 <kmc> Servo uses phantom types in this way to restrict what layout vs. JS can do to the DOM
19:49:35 <katla> Bike I should watch that
19:49:40 <katla> i wonder if I can be bothered
19:49:51 <Taneb> I did not realise there was a mister Hamming
19:49:54 <Bike> i dunno, i couldn't be.
19:50:04 <Bike> too busy watching lewontin *biology solidarity*
19:50:25 <elliott> god damn I just realised he has another name
19:50:27 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
19:50:30 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b Regis*!*@*.
19:50:32 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
19:50:36 <elliott> imo, trolls should stick to one name.
19:51:07 <Bike> katla: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2FF649D0C4407B30
19:51:18 <Bike> i mean, also, i'd like never watch the AI ones :V
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19:54:58 <Taneb> I do not know what happened there...
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19:56:22 <Taneb> My phone turned itself off...
19:57:15 <kmc> shachaf: what do you think of that
19:58:07 <elliott> kmc: i don't understand what Node<View> has to do with it there
19:58:12 <elliott> or is it meant to be Node<ScriptView>
19:59:33 <kmc> View is a parameter and ScriptView is a specific instantiation
19:59:38 <kmc> at least I think that's what's going on
19:59:51 <kmc> just struct Node<T> really
20:00:01 <kmc> it's a phantom parameter anyway so it's not used in the body of the struct
20:00:48 <elliott> they should use lowercase type variables!!
20:01:19 <Bike> have you considered writing a horror story about rust
20:02:16 <Taneb> I exclusively write action-adventure
20:02:24 <elliott> action-adventure-horror story about rust
20:02:41 <zzo38> Maybe even "action-adventure-horror" isn't good enough.
20:06:32 <elliott> I didn't need to have that argument with gomadwarrior
20:06:47 <elliott> since he literally linked it in #haskell
20:06:53 <elliott> well I guess that was a few minutes into the argument
20:08:36 <Bike> i just figuratively linked it in #esoteric
20:09:43 <kmc> set fire to flames
20:12:13 <kmc> cooool http://lwn.net/Articles/452035/ Android lets you map memory and tell the kernel "hey i'm just using this for a cache, feel free to toss it if memory is tight"
20:12:38 <Fiora> huh, that's kind of cool
20:12:57 <kmc> it makes sense because every program ever written has like 50 layers of caching
20:13:38 <ion> madvise didn’t let you do that?
20:13:59 <ion> I guess not.
20:14:05 <kmc> well that wouldn't really be "advice" although iirc not all madvise thingies are
20:14:11 <Fiora> you'd need some way for the kernel to tell you "oh hey I threw away your memory"
20:14:34 <kmc> yeah, AshMem handles that with an ioctl that you call to "pin" and "un-pin" memory
20:15:01 <Fiora> so like, if you unpin it, it can disappear at any time?
20:15:12 <elliott> Fiora: clearly you just catch SIGSEGV
20:15:26 <Fiora> that... that sounds terrible XD
20:15:39 <ion> MADV_DONTNEED: Do not expect access in the near future. (For the time being, the application is finished with the given range, so the kernel can free resources associated with it.) Subsequent accesses of pages in this range will succeed, but will result either in reloading of the memory contents from the underlying mapped file (see mmap(2)) or zero-fill-on-demand pages for mappings without an
20:15:41 <ion> underlying file.
20:15:56 <Fiora> I think that's different from actually throwing it away, that involves paging it to disk, right?
20:16:08 <ion> Something like that but with slightly different semantics would probably work.
20:18:35 <kmc> interesting
20:18:49 <kmc> it does seem that in some use cases, you could just check for the page having been zeroeed
20:20:48 <Fiora> that feels like it might be dangerous...
20:20:58 <Fiora> like, let's say the kernel does a context switch in the middle of your cache access code
20:21:04 <Fiora> and when it comes back, the data is zeroed
20:21:15 <Fiora> and you can't, like, mutex the kernel
20:21:31 <kmc> you would need to load the whole cache item into registers or non-disappearing memory, and then check if it's zero
20:21:42 <kmc> so it would be hard to use correctly esp. with compiler optimizations
20:22:00 <Fiora> you'd need to load it atomically,
20:22:03 <ion> fiora: Send a patch for lock_kernel(), unlock_kernel() to Linus.
20:22:28 <kmc> iopl(3); asm("cli"); // problem solved
20:24:37 <kmc> it's a system call on x86 linux that gives a (root privileged) userspace program permission to access IO ports directly
20:24:59 <kmc> which includes the ability to disable interrupts, for some reason
20:25:34 <Fiora> does that require sudo?
20:25:48 <ion> “(root privileged)”
20:26:08 <fizzie> Well, now! CAP_SYS_RAWIO-privileged!
20:26:30 <ion> That’s “root” privileged FSVO “root”. ;-)
20:26:47 <elliott> imagining fizzie sitting in a corner waving a flag labelled "capabilities" while being ignored
20:26:54 <kmc> yes there are two kinds of POSIX capabilities: the ones that are entirely useless and the ones that can be trivially escalated to root
20:27:20 <kmc> anyway this system call is possible because the x86 has separate flag bits for IO privileges vs. memory/other privileges
20:27:33 <kmc> which in theory means you can have, like, a microkernel in ring 0 and drivers in ring 1/2 and userspace in ring 3
20:27:38 <kmc> in practice nobody does this ever
20:27:54 <Fiora> what's the reason that nobody uses rings 1 and 2?
20:28:07 <itsy> Does anyone still use OS/2?
20:28:10 <zzo38> It may be because, you should have a system call override interface, instead, it might help better than capabilities system in some cases.
20:28:52 <kmc> Fiora: I think it's because most kernels are designed to be vaguely portable, and so they only use hardware features that are common across many architectures
20:28:59 <fizzie> I'm sure there are still people fiddling on Haiku.
20:29:07 <kmc> Xen does use ring 1 for paravirt guest kernel, I believe
20:29:08 <fizzie> If that counts as being a BeOS user.
20:29:18 <fizzie> And OS/2 uses ring 2 for some privileged code.
20:29:20 <Fiora> kmc: ahhhh. so most architectures don't have an equivalent?
20:29:27 <Fiora> (i.e. just kernel and non-kernel code?)
20:30:31 <kmc> same with x86 segmentation — it can be used to do some cool things, but there's no equivalent on other architectures
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20:30:39 <elliott> what surprises me about Haiku is that they like, do actual funding
20:30:43 <Fiora> that makes sense, especially given how insane itis
20:30:46 <elliott> who is putting money into Haiku?????
20:30:52 <Fiora> does... does that mean you can't do, like, Native Client on ARM?
20:31:05 <kmc> i think they have some other way to do NaCl things on ARM, maybe
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20:31:29 <fizzie> They do have NaCl ports for non-i386.
20:31:50 <fizzie> You can't do the segmentation tricks on x86-64 while in long mode either, after all.
20:32:28 <fizzie> elliott: Google, apparently.
20:32:49 <fizzie> elliott: (They're in the $5000-$9999 bin of 2013's public-sponsors list.)
20:32:54 <fizzie> That's the harder question.
20:33:23 <ion> I’m reminded of AmigaOS’ Disable() for disabling interrupts and Forbid() for only disabling task scheduling.
20:34:07 <Fiora> now I'm remembering OSs class and writing mutexes by disabling interrrupts
20:34:12 <Fiora> and feeling like a very terrible person
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20:35:35 <kmc> 420 disable interrupts everyday
20:35:53 -!- Jafet has joined.
20:39:03 * itsy was looking at the new Amiga at the weekend (and also the new MorphOS)
20:41:01 <olsner> hmm, the logic behind IOPL controlling interrupts might be to synchronize io port access across threads
20:41:13 <olsner> and pio stuff could have timing constraints that break if interrupts happen?
20:41:36 <olsner> if nothing else, you could just use your io privileges to disable the interrupt controller
20:43:36 <kmc> olsner: well you can also have a bitmask of which io ports you're allowed to use
20:43:45 <kmc> i don't remember the details but it's pretty janky
20:44:05 <olsner> the port bitmap is quite straight-forward though
20:44:45 <kmc> btw actual capabilities systems are cool and nothing like the travesty of POSIX capabilities
20:45:02 <elliott> kmc: @ has them, therefore it is obvious that they are cool
20:45:09 <kmc> it is trivial
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21:03:49 <Bike> capabilities is like EROS, right
21:13:09 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:13:58 <fizzie> Like RAMAZZOTTI, right.
21:16:46 <ion> > sequence [["FI", "RAMA"], ["ZZ"], ["IE", "OTTI"]]
21:16:47 <lambdabot> [["FI","ZZ","IE"],["FI","ZZ","OTTI"],["RAMA","ZZ","IE"],["RAMA","ZZ","OTTI"]]
21:16:51 <fizzie> I don't think POSIX "caps" are entirely like "real" "caps" you'd find in something as fancy as a research OS.
21:17:02 <ion> > unwords . map join . sequence $ [["FI", "RAMA"], ["ZZ"], ["IE", "OTTI"]]
21:17:03 <lambdabot> "FIZZIE FIZZOTTI RAMAZZIE RAMAZZOTTI"
21:18:29 <fizzie> Oh, that's my full name.
21:19:37 <olsner> fizzie: I suspect they are entirely unlike those caps
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21:39:58 <shachaf> kmc: Hmm, I didn't know that.
21:41:06 <kmc> how goeschaf
21:43:40 <kmc> hi Gracenotes
21:43:48 * kmc → bike → mozilla
21:44:06 <Bike> it's nice being employed again
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22:09:41 <shachaf> I think the next exercises (kind of tricky) are to write inMu :: Functor f => f (Mu f) -> Mu f, outMu :: Functor f => Mu f -> f (Mu f), and the same for Nu.
22:09:46 <shachaf> Or maybe there are other exercises first.
22:10:18 <shachaf> Oh, there's a sort of exercise: Nu Maybe is "bigger" than Mu Maybe. Figure out a Nu Maybe value that isn't in Mu Maybe.
22:15:46 <zzo38> Define Mu and Nu and then we will see about that.
22:16:01 <shachaf> newtype Mu f = Mu { runMu :: forall r. (f r -> r) -> r }
22:16:08 <shachaf> data Nu x = forall x. Nu x (x -> f x)
22:16:36 <shachaf> data Fix f = Fix { runFix :: f (Fix f) }
22:16:44 <shachaf> s/data/newtype/ for that last one.
22:17:01 <zzo38> I think you mean Nu f instead of Nu x isn't it?
22:21:44 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
22:22:04 <katla> whats the diffrence :/
22:22:19 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Nu'
22:22:47 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:26:15 <shachaf> what would i even talk about though
22:29:17 <Gracenotes> well, there was a whole article about type-level fix
22:29:22 <zzo38> Try to talk about impossible things.
22:29:45 <Gracenotes> negative vs positive positions in types
22:30:06 <Gracenotes> naturals via Mu and Nu is not immediately intuitive
22:30:51 <Gracenotes> and, I suppose, the entire talk may well be about data vs. codata, and why it can be useful to separate them, even if Haskell doesn't (or is good to separate them? I don't know).
22:31:59 <Gracenotes> even though lists and colists are very similar, why you might use lists in one circumstance and colists in another
22:32:15 <shachaf> well maybe someone who actually knows about that should talk about it :'(
22:32:22 <shachaf> I don't really know much about it.
22:33:22 <Gracenotes> there was that interesting article about solving AST typing using fixpoint types
22:34:39 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:36:52 <katla> whats the difference between Nu and Mu
22:37:15 <katla> haskell syntax is way too complicated, everything should use GADT
22:39:03 <Gracenotes> yeah, GADT definitions of Mu and Nu might be nice
22:39:08 <Gracenotes> I can't do they kind of conversion myself
22:40:54 <zzo38> Haskell syntax is complicated; they should make everything to use macros.
22:41:19 <Bike> haskell syntax is complicated, they should make everything use semicolons
22:43:01 <shachaf> Glaswegian Algebraic Data Type
22:43:49 <tswett> Haskell syntax is complicated; they should replace it with XML.
23:03:37 <kmc> elliott: to answer your question about Servo's user agent: it doesn't have one
23:03:49 <kmc> cutting the gordian knot as it were
23:04:04 <elliott> kmc: does it just not send one
23:04:07 <kmc> it just sends "GET / HTTP/1.0\r\nHost: example.com\r\n\r\n"
23:04:10 <kmc> HTTP/1.0 [sic]
23:04:20 <elliott> won't that get it filtered a ton
23:04:41 <kmc> on the other hand it will get through Gogo Inflight Wifi paywall! (sort of)
23:04:57 <Fiora> how do those paywalls work?
23:05:02 <kmc> anyway I'll worry about that after I get it to run without crashing
23:05:13 <Fiora> I'm kind of curious, I've always wondered
23:05:19 <kmc> there are lots of different kinds
23:05:37 <kmc> oh there's a ksplice blog post about this!!!
23:05:51 <kmc> https://blogs.oracle.com/ksplice/entry/coffee_shop_internet_access
23:06:21 <kmc> by Jessica McKellar who is pretty cool
23:06:26 <kmc> more recently she wrote a book about Twisted
23:06:34 <kmc> the python network framework thingy
23:07:00 <Gracenotes> although they deleted some entries when they got acquired by Oracle, I think :(
23:07:08 <Gracenotes> or at least didn't restore all of them
23:07:20 <kmc> yeah they've been slowly reimporting them to the new blog engine
23:07:24 <kmc> I think they're mostly/all up now?
23:07:33 <kmc> I didn't hear of anything being censored by The Man
23:08:25 <Gracenotes> oh, okay, good... unlike when OKCupid was acquired.
23:08:30 <kmc> yeah lololol
23:08:39 <kmc> they had to remove all the posts about how their acquirer was bad
23:08:47 <kmc> Fiora: I believe the Gogo one does a combination of IP based filtering, and HTTP Host: header based filtering for certain IPs that they allow pre-payment
23:09:17 <kmc> and the latter includes some Google servers, so you can run your own proxy on Google App Engine and evade the filter that way, if you just don't send Host:
23:09:23 <Gracenotes> still, that is a form of censorship, temporarily withholding info
23:09:56 <Fiora> that is really cool! what would happen though if you tried to use https instead of http? would it be able to redirect you?
23:10:27 <kmc> Gracenotes: only if deliberate
23:10:39 <kmc> they just didn't have time to import everything into oracle's shit-tastic blog software
23:10:54 <kmc> Fiora: generally no
23:11:54 <kmc> lucky for captive portal operators (and attackers), users ~never type "https://" themselves
23:12:02 <kmc> I don't know how it's supposed to work in the HSTS world, though
23:12:18 <shachaf> @google operator plays a little ping pong
23:12:19 <lambdabot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahBU4Py5cPg
23:12:19 <lambdabot> Title: Operator Plays A Little Ping Pong - YouTube
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23:31:09 * kmc currently watching https://github.com/mozilla/servo/wiki/Videos-and-presentations
23:34:34 <kmc> not yet ;P
23:34:45 <Bike> hasn't gotten the kmc touch
23:37:23 <Bike> "yo peeps i found a security hole, the jit we use for fast gif rendering can be used with that css overflow to execute arbitrary assembly code, as long as it looks like Spanish text"
23:38:52 <Gracenotes> yo, it's bullshit that I have to be logged in to access https://air.mozilla.org/fireside-chat-3/
23:40:30 <Gracenotes> I ain't got time to make accounts or acquire access
23:42:28 <kmc> get a job at mozilla then
23:45:18 <Bike> data wants to be free!
23:52:46 <kmc> cowpumpkin
23:55:56 <kmc> elliott: fun fact: Servo parses images using stb_image.c which the author explicitly says is not for untrusted images (and the Servo team is aware of this, too)
23:56:03 <katla> im not interestd in this stupid prorgamming language shit5
23:57:09 <Bike> what kind of exploits can you hide in image metadata anyway
23:57:28 <kmc> buffer overflows are common in image parsers
23:57:33 <Fiora> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/bulletin/ms04-028
23:58:14 <shachaf> speaking of image parsers someone emailed me and wants me to make my gif thing good instead of bad :'(
23:59:10 <kmc> do they have code
23:59:32 <Bike> right, programming well is clearly impossible
00:00:05 <pikhq> Image formats tend to be designed in a way I can only describe as "malicious".
00:01:01 <Gracenotes> parsers in general are hard to get right
00:01:18 <zzo38> pikhq: Well, some of them are, anyways. There might be better ones too, possibly.
00:01:19 <pikhq> And DEFLATE is terribad.
00:01:22 <kmc> especially when you're writing them in fucking C
00:01:38 <kmc> shachaf: what's bad about your gif thing?
00:02:11 <Gracenotes> The language of all gifs, for instance, is likely context-sensitive, and I'm sure many other formats are Turing-complete.
00:02:13 <pikhq> Especially as used in PNG. Gotta love using multiple endiannesses!
00:02:30 <pikhq> And two checksums. (sigh)
00:03:23 <nooodl_> mmmmm i have to make an xml based bitmap image format
00:03:38 <zzo38> nooodl_: I think someone already did that.
00:03:49 <Bike> <bit><on /></bit>
00:03:55 <pikhq> And shit, even BMP is friggin' awful.
00:04:27 <nooodl_> pbm: the only good image file format
00:04:42 <Gracenotes> BMP is pretty straightforward, if you use it in the way you'd expect
00:04:58 <zzo38> Yes, I looked and I can see it isn't very good, and it could be improved. PBM is pretty good if you don't need compressed, but even with PBM, it uses ASCII numbers even when using binary PBMs, which doesn't make a lot of sense.
00:05:12 <Gracenotes> er, also without any extensions or weird flags, etc.
00:05:14 <Bike> what about xbm!!
00:05:26 <shachaf> kmc: well, it's mostly just really slow and stupid about things
00:05:41 <shachaf> i bet it could be improved by ""orders of magnitude"
00:05:41 <Gracenotes> anyway, the best lossy formats involve lots of analysis of human vision.
00:05:44 <Bike> wow xbm is source that's right
00:05:46 <Bike> imo that rules
00:05:48 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, I'm not too fond of that bit. Though it still beats most other stuff a lot.
00:06:02 -!- katla has quit (Quit: katla has no reason).
00:06:17 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I agree.
00:06:28 <pikhq> Gracenotes: BMP is practically made of weird features.
00:06:40 <zzo38> Text PBM format can be processed by TeX macros, though.
00:06:40 <nooodl_> pbm has always been "that easily readable/writable ascii image file format" for me
00:06:57 <Vorpal> So I was trying to make a panorama, when somehow THIS happened: http://db.tt/LhfMRoNz
00:07:00 <pikhq> nooodl_: Binary PBM is equally easy to read/write FWIW.
00:07:07 <Vorpal> I think it took all images and put them on top of each other
00:08:00 <Gracenotes> obligatory, also, http://notanumber.net/archives/54/underhanded-c-the-leaky-redaction
00:08:02 <kmc> binary pbm is the best
00:08:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, I can't get that panorama to render properly, it looks just fine in hugin's preview window.
00:09:09 <Bike> Vorpal: http://img.funtasticus.com/2008/nov/050813Panorama/Bad%20Panorama%201.jpg you've seen the panoramas of hell i hope
00:09:39 <Bike> http://img.funtasticus.com/2008/nov/050813Panorama/Bad%20Panorama%2011.jpg ready to run
00:10:11 <Bike> and of course the classic http://img.funtasticus.com/2008/nov/050813Panorama/Bad%20Panorama%206.jpg doge
00:10:18 <Vorpal> Bike, Those things can at least be fixed by masking out one version.
00:11:48 <Vorpal> Bike, in my case it is just the program going crazy. It looks perfect in the preview window. And it in the remapped images. But in the final blended result it just discards the position information it seems
00:11:54 <Vorpal> never had that happen before
00:12:57 <Vorpal> Bike, also that "mountain" in my picture doesn't exist
00:13:26 <Vorpal> I THINK it may be part of the ground from the 360 spherical panorama
00:13:36 <Vorpal> But it doesn't quite match the texture
00:14:45 <Vorpal> Also the flag is mirrored, it was blowing the other way in the source image...
00:15:23 <shachaf> Sgeo_: No `olist today so far.
00:16:30 <Vorpal> Hmmm.... I actually upgraded the panorama program recently. Maybe that broke it. Worth trying on a computer that still has an older version. Except that computer doesn't have nearly enough RAM to deal with this project...
00:17:09 <Vorpal> I give up, I'll try something else tomorrow, good night
00:18:54 <copumpkin> oddly enough, in many latin languages, the expression "to have reason" is "to be right"
00:19:15 <Bike> also does that mean romance languages or what
00:19:26 <shachaf> today my reason is fava beans
00:19:51 <Bike> mainly on The Internet i've gotten used to people using "rational" to mean "whatever i, the speaker, am thinking"
00:20:12 <copumpkin> the other use of rational on the internet
00:21:47 <Gracenotes> rational is from first principles, rather than just from assumptions
00:21:58 <Gracenotes> first principles are also from assumptions.
00:21:58 <shachaf> I,I from first assumptions
00:24:30 <kmc> rational means acting as though maximizing an unbiased estimate of some function obeying the axioms of a utility function
00:25:05 <Fiora> I thought rational meant it could be expressed as p/q, where p and q are integers
00:25:44 <Fiora> and q isn't zero >_<
00:26:08 <Bike> oh that reminds me, i was thinking about the polynomial thing again (without checking knuth, just, my own silly thinking)
00:26:09 <shachaf> imo there's nothing very rational about the number 2/3
00:26:51 <pikhq> Seems like a ratio to me.
00:26:56 <Bike> figured something easy but kinda cool, if you want to evaluate say x² + 2x + 1 you can rewrite that as (x+1)², so one multiplication and one add instead of two adds and two multiplications
00:27:05 <Bike> unfortunately that involves rootfinding...
00:28:46 <Bike> yeah but finding them is annoying and all.
00:28:56 <Bike> tied up mathematics for like. three hundred years.
00:29:06 <Bike> also they're kind of rubbish to represent with floats anyway so that's probably not good.
00:29:09 <Bike> also sometimes they're imaginary.
00:29:17 <Fiora> I guess the problem is kind of complex
00:29:58 <pikhq> Floats are generally rubbish though.
00:30:27 <pikhq> Actually, really, representing floats base 10 is rubbish.
00:30:51 <shachaf> hmm in unary you only have rational numbers even if you invent a "." equivalent
00:30:52 <Bike> er, who does that.
00:31:11 <pikhq> Bike: Most languages use base 10 for float literals.
00:31:21 <Bike> Oh. Right. I was thinking for coomputation.
00:31:22 <pikhq> "0.1" is a very, very misleading literal.
00:31:32 <Bike> it's pretty hilarious how hard reading floats is, yeah.
00:32:16 * pikhq prefers hex floats
00:32:22 <pikhq> Just on principle.
00:32:24 <Bike> well, for rootfinding it would be easier to just use algebraics.
00:32:56 <Bike> > cos(1/3*pi) :: CReal
00:34:44 <Bike> other rootfinding could happen too though. like you can turn any (>deg1) polynomial into a homogenuous poly of the same degree but you need to know its roots. also it's probably pointless and i'm pointless.
00:35:16 <Bike> wait, not homogenouous. ugh.
00:35:48 <Gracenotes> yuouou just need to get back to your roots
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01:20:50 <Bike> this book cites "Darwin 1859" and "Darwin 1872".
01:21:31 <Bike> yeah but it's darwin.
01:21:42 <Bike> origin o' species
01:23:41 <Bike> and also http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1227/1227-h/images/fig18.jpg
01:24:00 <Sgeo_> This should really not be difficult
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01:26:57 <Bike> i'm not sure what 'parochial' means in the context of chimp lips, but yeah i don't see how it's sulky either.
01:27:27 * oerjan is tempted to `addquote that.
01:28:10 <oerjan> except the last part sort of doesn't work.
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01:37:35 <oerjan> <shachaf> 1F0AC PLAYING CARD KNIGHT OF SPADES [<U+1F0AC>] <-- hm that's apparently in tarot decks...
01:38:08 <oerjan> to a norwegian this is extra confusing since en:jack =no:knekt, usually...
01:38:20 <oerjan> which is obviously cognate to knight
01:40:44 <oerjan> @tell Taneb Clearly electromagnetism is a sham and radios are really powered by wights.
01:44:31 <oerjan> <shachaf> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nibling <-- this is the second time in my life i see this word, and the first time was just days ago.
01:46:55 <oerjan> hm i think it was in a r/askhistory discussion about what would happen if a king (of england, mostly) was homosexual.
01:47:43 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
01:48:00 <oerjan> assuming he avoided hot pokers and stuff
01:51:22 <Fiora> there seem to be multiple historical cases?
01:51:33 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_VI_and_I "Throughout his life James had close relationships with male courtiers, which has caused debate among historians about their nature."
01:51:39 <Bike> yeah i as gonna say, a secret gay noble is not really shocking
01:51:40 <Fiora> "... his sexuality has long been a matter of debate. He clearly preferred the company of handsome young men. The evidence of his correspondence and contemporary accounts have led some historians to conclude that the king was homosexual or bisexual."
01:52:02 <Bike> wow, he was james six and james one at the same time.
01:52:05 <Bike> that's pretty artful.
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01:55:00 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1hsfjs/what_is_the_protocol_for_if_an_heir_to_the/ it was
01:56:53 <Bike> i don't know why succession is an issue, plenty of monarchs have died without issue
01:57:00 <Bike> like.... james i's predecessor elizabeth.................
01:57:12 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_II_of_England
01:57:22 <Fiora> "While Edward fathered at least five children by two women, he was rumoured to have been bisexual. His inability to deny even the most grandiose favours to his unpopular male favourites (first a Gascon knight named Piers Gaveston, later a young English lord named Hugh Despenser) led to constant political unrest and his eventual deposition."
01:58:20 <Fiora> the son of william the conquerer was apparently gay too
01:58:40 <Fiora> oh, and Richard the Lionheart
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01:58:48 <Bike_> "Is it actually healthier to go braless?" r/askscience's biology is a bit disappointing
01:58:54 <oerjan> with a name like hugh despenser you cannot go wrong
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02:00:35 <Bike> "If you jumped from the golden gate bridge and then changed your mind, would trying to break the surface tension before landing be of any use?" ggggh
02:01:13 <Fiora> honestly I'd be vaguely curious about the bra one but reddit
02:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> there are 3 replies and one of them is just explaining that the question is confused
02:02:38 <Bike> Fiora: try wearing a unibra for a while and see which breast is healthier afterwards, obviously
02:02:51 <Fiora> that sounds monumentally uncomfortable
02:03:10 <Bike> we must make sacrifices for science, and by we i mean you
02:03:28 <Fiora> I don't think that can possibly work
02:03:35 <Bike> we must find a way
02:04:20 <Bike> i'm not sure hooks have ever gone well in clothing
02:04:29 <Bike> haven't you ever seen Hellraiser
02:04:31 <Bike> no fashion sense, imo
02:04:55 <Phantom_Hoover> also: what about captain hook, he seemed to pull it off
02:05:27 <Bike> hands aren't clothes!
02:06:20 <Bike> fashion is a sciencne!
02:06:26 <shachaf> oerjan: The first time I saw it was also days ago.
02:06:30 <Fiora> the science... of beauty!
02:06:40 <Bike> the science... of not jamming hooks into yourself!
02:06:42 * Fiora waves her hair, holds up a redken shampoo bottle
02:06:43 <shachaf> oerjan: Someone sent me a link. I assume the occurrences are related.
02:06:57 * Bike waves his hair, holds up bloodied surgical implements
02:07:09 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> er, *the best one <-- let me guess, that one has already been deleted?
02:09:18 <oerjan> shachaf: maybe there's a source somewhere
02:10:38 <shachaf> oerjan: The person who mentioned it to me linked to http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1hgkwp/til_the_plural_genderneutral_term_for_nieces_and/
02:10:45 <shachaf> oerjan: I assume it's all related to that.
02:11:25 <shachaf> Half a cheer for oerjan! Hip hip -- hoo!
02:12:11 * Bike looks at TIL, finds annoying psychologytoday link half a page down
02:13:00 <shachaf> Bike: why would you look at reddit "r u crazy"
02:14:25 <oerjan> hey r/askhistory is nice. and addictive.
02:16:24 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/user/crazy is sadly empty. but existing.
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02:18:55 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/crazy looks slightly healthier.
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02:27:31 <Gracenotes> shachaf: also, the niblings thread, not a linguist in the bunch
02:27:50 <shachaf> why would you read the thread hth
02:28:00 <shachaf> Gracenotes: today the cookie place had a short line so i went there
02:28:32 <Gracenotes> why would you ask a rhetoric question hth
02:28:44 <oerjan> Gracenotes: that's r/todayilearned/ not a science subreddit hth
02:29:46 <shachaf> it was enjoyable but not stand-in-line-for-half-an-hour good
02:30:07 <Gracenotes> maybe you'd think it was better is you stood in line for half an hour
02:30:20 <oerjan> green mouse and telephone ice cream
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02:31:42 <oerjan> you have to stand in line until you're really hungry, you see
02:32:29 <HackEgo> scyrmion: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:33:31 <elliott> then I ended up hosting it :(
02:35:36 <Gracenotes> kmc: what was the thing people don't like in Rust?
02:36:00 <scyrmion> I'm trying to experement with some ideas of compression algorithms that search for a program that is able to produce the original output.
02:36:02 <kmc> lots of things
02:36:06 <kmc> can you be more specific
02:36:11 <shachaf> Gracenotes: the thing where all your iron disintegrates after a while
02:36:26 <shachaf> rust is all about the boxes
02:36:41 <shachaf> copumpkin: imo be more dutch hth
02:36:48 <kmc> well they're getting rid of managed mutable boxes maybe
02:36:57 <kmc> that's the one place where the borrow checker has a run-time check
02:37:17 <kmc> is that what cows say in .nl
02:37:28 <Gracenotes> kmc: what is the difference between @ pointers and managed mutable boxes?
02:37:37 <kmc> it's @ versus @mut
02:37:52 <elliott> why did they name those after an OS
02:38:26 <shachaf> kmc: are they going to get rid of @
02:38:37 <kmc> don't think so, blog post notwithstanding
02:39:19 <kmc> the funny thing is @ isn't garbage collected yet, just refcounted, and there's already a library type Rc<T> that is refcounted and way faster
02:39:32 <shachaf> Wait, there's no actual GC?
02:39:53 <kmc> correct; if you have cycles they don't go away until the thread ends
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02:40:23 <kmc> shachaf: I'm told that @ and @fn don't have much in common implementation-wise; similarly ~ and ~fn and ~[]
02:40:42 <shachaf> it seems like all of rust's boxes and things is a lot to keep in mind
02:40:49 <kmc> also there are secretly two kinds of ~: those which point to managed boxes somewhere and those which don't
02:40:52 <kmc> shachaf: yup
02:41:04 <elliott> are they sure firefox can't deal with being fully GC'd
02:41:10 <oerjan> what would you know, there is no .ts domain
02:41:12 <elliott> there are some pretty wacky advanced GCs
02:41:42 <kmc> if your ~ contains managed stuff then it has a header which links it into a list of all managed stuff, for use by the thread-exit cycle collector (?)
02:41:53 <kmc> but if it doesn't then it has no header (as of, like, today)
02:41:55 <elliott> (that's the reason rust has all this memory stuff right)
02:42:08 <kmc> elliott: i don't know man
02:42:46 <elliott> you're meant to be the expert!
02:43:03 <shachaf> elliott: well i'm kind of glad someoneis doing "all this memory stuff"
02:43:15 <shachaf> seems like it has its place, whether or not firefox is that place
02:43:44 <elliott> its place is: outside of my head
02:43:55 <kmc> shachaf: yeah
02:44:28 <shachaf> it's kind of odd how a lot of languages are "all about things that" look like existentials, but don't really have actual existentials
02:44:44 <kmc> depending on who you ask Servo is either "definitely going to be the new browser one day" or "a research platform for playing around with different ideas"
02:45:06 <shachaf> as in struct Foo<A> { x: A, f: fn(y: A) -> int } with A existential instead of universal
02:45:19 <elliott> i wonder if they will rebrand
02:46:13 <HackEgo> 2013-07-08 21:17:02: <ion> > unwords . map join . sequence $ [["FI", "RAMA"], ["ZZ"], ["IE", "OTTI"]]
02:46:27 <shachaf> feature request: add "so and so many times ago" to `seen
02:46:46 <Bike> like, i've seen him four thousand times?
02:47:10 <kmc> you re: rebrand
02:47:18 <elliott> kmc: like if servo ever becomes the mozilla browser
02:47:24 <Bike> shouldn't be that hard, just subtract timestamps
02:47:30 <elliott> would they call it firefox or not (of course nobody knows)
02:47:34 <kmc> you mean will they call the browser "servo"
02:47:35 <kmc> yeah probably not
02:47:44 <shachaf> will they call servo gecko
02:47:46 <kmc> it's replacing "gecko" sort of
02:47:50 <kmc> probably not
02:48:02 <shachaf> will they just give up and use webkit
02:48:07 <elliott> they won't call it servo surely
02:48:12 <kmc> servo is architecturally very different from gecko, even aside from being in a different language
02:48:16 <elliott> but they might call it mozilla shinynewbrowser or whatever
02:48:22 <kmc> shachaf: "webkit will outlive the human race"
02:48:27 <kmc> i say that about C sometimes
02:49:06 <Bike> i can't wait for programming to be three hundred years old so people can read the equivalent of alien victorian biology books
02:49:06 <scyrmion> +kmc: what does that mean? The singularity will be in C?
02:49:39 <Gracenotes> Mozilla is developing the Browser of Theseus
02:49:47 <kmc> Bike: but today nobody reads the books written even 30 years ago
02:49:52 <Bike> the singularity will be in notareallanguagese
02:49:59 <kmc> the singularity will not be televised
02:50:06 <Bike> kmc: well when i say "people" i mean weird people like me
02:50:12 <Bike> i am actually reading a thirty year old book right now.
02:50:38 <Bike> or knuth. knuth is also pretty weird
02:51:36 <Bike> and i read biology books old enough to predate evolutionary theory, and they're great.
02:52:30 <Gracenotes> Rust looks highly complicated, like it was a very nice language and then making it consistent/useful involved making an exception somewhere, then making an exception within that, etc.
02:52:30 <scyrmion> there are too many languages in the wiki that only print "Hello world!"... and a large obsession with the 99 bottles of beer lyrics.
02:52:33 <kmc> ur pretty weird imo
02:53:08 <Gracenotes> Or maybe I'm just trying too hard to read into its design philosophy. nicer than C++, anyweh.
02:53:42 <Gracenotes> > 11 Appendix: Rationales and design tradeoffs
02:54:19 <elliott> #1 problem with rust is still those dang braces, sorry
02:54:55 <shachaf> #1 problem with rust is h8rs
02:56:04 <kmc> Gracenotes: yeah that's the best
02:56:10 <Gracenotes> why can't everyone just get along and sing songs together and program COBOL
02:56:28 <kmc> Gracenotes: yes, it does have a bit of that "everything stuck together just so bursting at the seams" feel, like C++, but better
02:57:16 <kmc> providing fine-grained control of allocation in a memory-safe way is *hard*
02:57:36 <shachaf> kmc: imo get :t into the repl hth
02:57:42 <kmc> afaik Rust is the only language even attempting it that has even a chance of being more than an academic project
02:57:48 <shachaf> also make the repl fast instead of slow :'(
02:57:57 <kmc> everyone knows the repl sucks ok
02:58:04 <kmc> on my machine it just crashes
02:58:24 <Gracenotes> make an IRC bot that runs arbitrary Rust code. that's the fastest way to mainstream adoption.
02:58:24 <kmc> there are supposed to be some recent improvements to LLVM's JIT that will help?
02:58:28 <kmc> Gracenotes: they have that
02:58:38 <kmc> in #rust on irc.mozilla.org
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02:59:08 <shachaf> kmc: But I haven't seen any Fibonacci sequences in #rust.
02:59:13 <kmc> not a fancy one
02:59:15 <shachaf> The bot is clearly defective.
02:59:20 <Gracenotes> I remember I made the first bot that ran (somewhat) arbitrary Go code
02:59:23 <kmc> i think it just compiles and loads your code in a big block
02:59:27 <Gracenotes> Then I stopped doing anything with Go ever
02:59:30 <kmc> not like tracing and optimizing it
02:59:38 <kmc> so it's slow to start up *and* produces slow code
02:59:51 <kmc> part of the point of tracing JITs isn't just that they produce good code but they start up quickly
03:00:28 <shachaf> i think there is room in the world for a tracing jit that produces great code using all sorts of runtime information but starts up slowly
03:00:40 <kmc> that's called java -server
03:00:53 <shachaf> i hear hotspot is "p. crazy"
03:01:40 <shachaf> "Always one more than you can handle," the water replied. "That's standard operating procedure."
03:02:01 <Gracenotes> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_killer_whale
03:02:17 <shachaf> Gracenotes: That sounds like an exciting logic!
03:02:32 <shachaf> data Bool = True | False | FalseKillerWhale
03:02:37 <elliott> Gracenotes: can I kick you for that.
03:02:46 <Bike> i did a report on false killer whales in middle school!
03:02:54 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
03:02:55 <Bike> so, as a p. crassidens expert, yes you can kick Gracenotes for that
03:02:57 -!- elliott has kicked Gracenotes Gracenotes.
03:02:58 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
03:02:59 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
03:03:08 <elliott> wow it ruins my immersion when you join before I can even deop
03:03:20 <shachaf> elliott is abusing his op powers
03:03:52 <shachaf> well, i didn't read it as such
03:03:58 <elliott> 04:02:49 <Gracenotes> kick yes, kickban no.
03:04:00 * Gracenotes is making some soup later. you can all have it if you come by.
03:04:07 <elliott> man it must be depressing to be a species literally named for not being some other species
03:04:09 <Bike> what kind of soup
03:04:20 <elliott> what kinda aspirations can a false killer whale have
03:04:30 <Bike> elliott: at least their name is like, unrepetitive, mister homo sapiens sapiens
03:04:37 <Gracenotes> like, uh, sausage, jalapenos, something. probably spinach and shallots too.
03:04:47 <shachaf> oh, not even vegetarian soup
03:04:57 <kmc> sounds great
03:04:58 <kmc> what kinda sausage
03:05:17 <oerjan> Gracenotes> why can't everyone just get along and sing songs together and program COBOL <-- COBOL camp?
03:06:37 <kmc> are you sure it's not a dongz joke
03:06:44 <kmc> anyway the answer is "yes" either way
03:06:58 <kmc> mplayer http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Fr-Paris--b%C5%93uf.ogg
03:07:22 <Gracenotes> yes, hopefully the smoking strategy for either is different
03:07:45 <shachaf> imo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpe_KHDEfgw
03:08:16 <elliott> kmc: i realised it could be a dongz joke afterwards
03:11:14 <Gracenotes> kmc: go to la discothèque on your way home
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03:14:13 <Bike> it's not discotech, isn't it, even though that's how i think of it
03:14:18 <Bike> like a cyborg with a disco ball laser
03:26:29 <coppro> man, rewatching SG-1. I'd forgotton how good Heroes is
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03:43:06 <kmc> hardly anything was said while i was out :/
03:43:34 <Bike> well we thought you wwere ging to be gone longer!
03:43:37 <Bike> we were charging up.
03:43:48 <kmc> you saved up all your witty banter? how considerate
03:44:05 -!- kmc has set topic: <3 | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:44:25 <Sgeo> I could easily run a VM more powerful than my old computer
03:44:29 <Sgeo> This is kind of getting weir
03:44:57 <Bike> soon, sgeo will be sucked into an unending hole of VMs, like that one cyberiad story that was pretty cool imo.
03:45:17 <Sgeo> Cascade easily fits on the screen!
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04:07:28 <oerjan> <Bike> http://img.funtasticus.com/2008/nov/050813Panorama/Bad%20Panorama%2011.jpg ready to run <-- omfg
04:31:48 <kmc> Sgeo: maybe it *is* getting kind of weir!
04:34:02 <Gracenotes> weirwolf: a dam that turns into a wolf
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05:15:09 <kmc> hi zzo38, what are you up to this evening
05:16:16 <Sgeo> Maybe if I don't get as much sleep deprivation I won't feel sick tomorrow
05:17:40 <madbr> man, who said x86 was a bad architecture... the RISC architectures are better but for everything else I have my doubts
05:17:43 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know yet.
05:18:01 <zzo38> madbr: It wasn't as bad when it was first invented as it is now
05:18:52 <madbr> I'm looking at the 68k and I'm not convinced that it's better than x86
05:19:40 <zzo38> You might be correct, but, I don't know 68k
05:20:49 <madbr> all the other 8bit instruction sets from about that time were worse than x86 and have accordingly died horribly
05:22:13 <zzo38> That may have been true at the time, but not anymore.
05:23:18 <madbr> Most vliw architectures have also bombed
05:23:44 <madbr> (or at least the general purpose ones)
05:30:14 <madbr> 68k is even more CISC than x86 imho
05:31:37 <kmc> do you consider the baroque system of segmentation / interrupt handling / hardware task switching / etc. on x86 to be part of what makes it CISC?
05:32:04 <kmc> it does seem like RISC architectures tried also to simplify memory management and privilege separation
05:32:07 <Bike> complex everythingbutinstruction set computer
05:32:56 <madbr> kmc: oh, forgot about real mode
05:33:09 <kmc> what about real mode?
05:33:27 <madbr> segmentation is used in real mode
05:33:43 <kmc> segmentation in protected mode is vastly more complicated
05:34:09 <kmc> and you're required to use it to some degree
05:34:21 <kmc> most OSes try to avoid doing anything more than the bare minimum, though
05:34:25 <madbr> true but is it less complicated that other similar CPUs with MMUs and paging?
05:34:48 <kmc> no, I think it's a lot more complicated
05:35:12 <kmc> a lot of architectures do only paging
05:35:25 <kmc> i forgot that the MMU for 68k was an external chip o_O
05:36:15 <kmc> looks pretty complicated too
05:36:32 <kmc> "Wide Selection of Page Sizes from 256 Bytes to 32K Bytes"
05:37:20 <kmc> and a hard filled TLB
05:38:15 <madbr> Doesn't the x86 also have an extra cycle penalty if your segmentation stuff has an offset?¨
05:38:23 <kmc> and it has a 3 bit TLB tag!!
05:38:31 <kmc> madbr: wouldn't be surprised
05:38:43 <madbr> like it has to do an extra addition
05:38:48 <kmc> the subset of x86 features that people use and the subset of x86 features that have fast paths in the chip have co-evolved
05:38:58 <madbr> so you should leave it at 0
05:39:51 <kmc> a segment with offset 0 and limit 3GB is useful for safe access to userspace memory from within a 32-bit kernel
05:39:57 <madbr> also I think they're close to the limit where if they have to do an extra real addition they have to add an extra real life because the clock rate is so high
05:40:00 <kmc> but you can't do the analogous thing in long mode :/
05:40:11 <madbr> *an extra real life cycle
05:40:25 * kmc waves to Fiora
05:41:25 <shachaf> Fiora is a fan of two-cycle things
05:41:44 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
05:41:56 * Fiora sleepily paws around
05:42:18 <madbr> paws are for kittens :3
05:43:04 <Fiora> and for spin-lock loops!
05:43:12 <kmc> also the 68851 MMU is only for the 68020 and earlier, the later chips have other MMUs onboard
05:43:26 <Fiora> intel recommends using paws to avoid performance penalties!
05:43:29 <zzo38> Modern x86 is really complicated and so is modern ARM
05:43:50 <kmc> Fiora: *groan*
05:44:03 <madbr> modern arm is complicated because of all the useful things they put in :D
05:44:16 <kmc> water doesn't have much nutrients and that's why it's so cheap
05:44:25 <zzo38> If addition is slow then can you use other operation such as XOR?
05:44:47 <Fiora> kmc: groan? that was meowgnificat!
05:44:49 <kmc> i wonder if the MC68851 + RAM is capable of arbitrary computation
05:44:51 <Bike> kmc: i'm trying to fit arsenic wells into this, help
05:44:53 <shachaf> hmm, is x86 pause like stm retry
05:45:03 <kmc> shachaf: a little
05:45:05 <madbr> I think the fastest in CMOS is something like NAND
05:45:14 <kmc> also there might be a HTM retry instruction now >_<
05:45:19 <Fiora> shachaf: it's a thing that basically makes the cpu wait a few cycles before doing anything else
05:45:23 <kmc> yeah NAND or NOR, iirc
05:45:24 <madbr> or maybe multiplexing
05:45:27 <Fiora> so it doesn't flood the pipe with repeated memory load requests in like, a spin-wait loop
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05:46:12 <madbr> NAND inside a memory calculation would be kinda crazy tho
05:46:18 <Fiora> it helps performance in hyperthrading (since the other thread on the same core isn't sharing with useless memory loads) and it apparently has some benefit because of a memory ordering thing, where when the spin wait loop ends, the pipeline ends up being flushed because all of the loads are now invalid or something
05:46:33 <kmc> Fiora: what if it just took exclusive ownership of all cache lines accessed in the current loop, and then slept until receiving a cache coherence protocol message asking for them back
05:46:37 <kmc> that would be p. cool
05:46:41 <kmc> also not sure if what I just said makes any sense
05:47:02 <Fiora> I wonder how that would work
05:47:33 <shachaf> kmc: that was vaguely what i was thinking of, i think
05:47:51 <kmc> I wonder if the Haswell HTM does anything like that, since I think the cache is used as the transaction-in-progress buffer
05:47:55 <kmc> I might be wrong about that, too
05:50:02 <zzo38> I would think good idea is to have parallel microcode units with Muxcomp (see Esolang wiki), using XOR for address calculation, and then the program will call the Muxcomp microcodes and run everything in parallel.
05:51:23 <zzo38> That might improve a lot of things, including, not being too complicated, not being too slow, and your program can customize it by rewriting the microcode, too.
05:52:07 <zzo38> How much do you expect such things working?
05:52:14 <kmc> zzo38: Have you built simulators for any of your microarchitectures?
05:52:23 <kmc> some of them sound really brilliantly weird
05:52:34 <kmc> I remember you suggested using a programmable LFSR to derive the next program counter value.....
05:52:42 <Bike> haha, awesome.
05:52:50 <Bike> like a barrel memory or some shit
05:53:04 <kmc> like a drum memory in some absurdly high dimensional space
05:53:15 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I have suggested all of various of these things, but I did not build a simulator or even put all of them in one place, unfortunately. At least, not yet.
05:53:17 <kmc> where your mind will explode if you even begin to comprehend it
05:53:25 <kmc> either that or it's just basic algebra, not sure tbqh
05:53:29 <madbr> hyperbolic space fungeroid
05:53:43 <Bike> weird architectures are cool as hell (wannabe neuroscientist warning)
05:53:45 <kmc> apparently the truth table for XOR is 0x6996966996696996
05:54:03 <Gracenotes> you know, the internet has too few wannabe people
05:54:06 <Bike> the bitwise of the beast
05:54:13 <kmc> Bike: that's not what i was thinking of.
05:54:23 <Bike> Gracenotes: are you being sarcastic or... what.
05:54:38 <zzo38> It is the Thue-Morse sequence, isn't it? Anyways, that is what you make with the XOR like that, I think
05:55:06 <zzo38> Even in Verilog using the ^ unary operator on a number, I think would do that.
05:55:54 <kmc> it is? that's cool
05:56:14 <madbr> how about a cpu where instead of using registers, everything is based on queues
05:56:18 <zzo38> Earlier today I have made improvements to the Fweep and Aimfiz Z-machine interpreters, although now I am not doing that and might do something else, I don't quite know entirely.
05:56:39 <kmc> madbr: that sounds good for a clockless implementation
05:57:03 <madbr> kmc : I'm secretly wondering if some OOO cpus aren't doing that actually
05:57:21 <zzo38> How would you actually do such a think as queues and clockless implementation though really?
05:57:56 <kmc> zzo38: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_circuit
05:58:07 <madbr> like, instead of doing
05:58:19 <madbr> mul rdest, rsrc1, rsrc2
05:58:57 <madbr> add dst, src1, multiply_result_queue
05:59:19 <kmc> you can't name a queue for the result in the 'mul' instruction?
05:59:33 <madbr> it would perfectly handle the multiplication's long latency
05:59:43 <madbr> and you could do it for memory operations as well
06:00:09 <kmc> it's kind of like VLIW right? putting more of the burden of instruction scheduling on the compiler
06:00:30 <Fiora> isn't that exactly what the physical register file is...?
06:00:34 <madbr> the add dst, src1, mulq
06:00:49 <madbr> just blocks until the multiplication result is available
06:01:01 <madbr> so the exact cycle that it's issued varies
06:01:31 <madbr> if you have a bunch of separate execution units, each one with their scheduling queues and input and output queues
06:01:51 <Fiora> I thought that's how it already works...
06:02:06 <madbr> yeah I'm starting to think that's how they did the p2
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06:05:20 <shachaf> hey Taneb do you want to read a sad stories
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06:10:33 <zzo38> I think the TOGA computer would basically consist of a programmable binary counter (although it isn't very efficient, but you can still make any program with it).
06:16:17 <Taneb> I am going to see if I understand my book correctly
06:16:40 <Bike> the one that went over holes and stuff?
06:17:11 <Taneb> It is a bit of a whirlwind tour
06:18:06 <Taneb> What is a Galois field?
06:18:25 <Bike> a finite field
06:19:03 <shachaf> what is a Galois connection?
06:19:04 <Taneb> Field in what sense?
06:19:26 <shachaf> Taneb: commutative division ring hth
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06:20:26 <Taneb> Because I am pretty sure that the field I sometimes walk my dog through that has cows in it is finite
06:20:54 <Bike> a field is a set of objects with addition and multiplication defined, commutatively, and with inverses
06:21:07 <shachaf> no field with cows is finite
06:21:14 <shachaf> it's what's-their-name's theoerm
06:21:47 <Bike> e.g., {0,1} with addition = OR and multiplication = XOR works.
06:22:17 <Bike> er, xor and and.
06:22:31 <Bike> maybe both are equivalent?? beats me
06:22:45 <Taneb> So a field in this sense is a ring where addition and multiplication form A belian groups
06:23:25 <shachaf> well it's a ring where multiplication is commutative (addition is always commutative anyway) and you have multiplicative inverses except for 0
06:23:34 <shachaf> the except for 0 bit is important hth
06:25:15 <coppro> 0 can't have a multiplicative inverse since it must annihilate the ring
06:25:20 <coppro> due to being an additive inverse
06:26:02 <shachaf> 0 is sometimes known as "Frodo"
06:26:32 <coppro> Taneb: try proving that 0 * a = 0
06:26:40 <coppro> oh, and there's one other important property
06:26:48 <coppro> without it nothing works
06:26:52 <shachaf> yes, but rings have that anyway
06:27:05 <shachaf> rings wouldn't be a thing without it
06:27:27 <coppro> oh, misread your thing
06:27:49 <shachaf> wow this place has no appreciation
06:28:05 <shachaf> or is it just that that pun is an old and tired one?? i haven't heard it before
06:29:01 <HackEgo> 405) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once.
06:30:29 <Taneb> oerjan, see? I'm consistent!
06:30:36 <shachaf> hmm 0∙a=a is a semiring axiom
06:34:16 <Taneb> ab= a(0+b)= (a0)+(ab)
06:36:46 <Bike> yep that's pretty demonstratumed.
06:42:17 <Gracenotes> infinity is my favorite natural number
06:42:20 <Taneb> Ooh, the next chapter is on chaos theory
06:42:38 <Bike> imo read up on ICAF
06:44:17 <Taneb> First I shall read up on x_t+1=k x_t (1- x_t )
06:44:28 <Bike> logistic map, right?
06:45:10 <Bike> here's hoping your book mentions feigenbaum
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06:58:28 <Taneb> Bike, it did not. :(
07:00:02 <Taneb> And now it is on to the Black-Scholes equation
07:00:53 <Bike> oh well. you could probably write a whole book just on the logisti cmap
07:00:56 <shachaf> also that should be named after zzo38
07:04:29 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal I was going to suggest maybe X/Y/Z translations -- I've seen those confuse the Hugin fast preview window -- but if the remapped images are okay, then that's not it. Weird. (Also speaking of panostuff, I fiddled together a panohead and took some test pictures -- http://flic.kr/s/aHsjGJ1XdS -- there's also some from the university campus that I haven't stitched yet.)
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07:15:48 <Taneb> This chapter is scary
07:17:43 <Bike> still black-zzoles?
07:24:09 <Taneb> I do not want to work in finance
07:25:06 <shachaf> are fine ants like fine arts
07:25:43 <kmc> Taneb: why are you reading about black-scholes?
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07:26:46 <Taneb> kmc, it is the final formula in 17 formulas that changed the world
07:27:10 <kmc> is RSA in there
07:27:38 <Gracenotes> yeah, if they don't go light on the "changing the world" I might read it...
07:28:57 <Taneb> I do not know what DH is
07:29:00 <kmc> I started thinking about how something like TLS would work in a world with only symmetric cryptography
07:29:10 <kmc> i think it's basically possible, but a huge pain in the ass
07:29:27 <Gracenotes> actively involved in protocols, that is
07:30:08 <kmc> yeah instead of CAs passively signing certificates, they would interact as trusted third parties for key negotiation
07:30:21 <kmc> but you could still have a hierarchy of trust similar to TLS today, I think
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07:31:44 <Taneb> s/formulas/equations/
07:32:35 <kmc> Taneb: I meant Diffie-Hellman key exchange, which predates RSA a bit and was sort of the start of public key cryptography
07:35:00 <shachaf> hmm, is diffie-hellman an equation
07:36:01 <kmc> you could say it's B^a ≡ A^b (mod p) where ...
07:36:50 <kmc> black-scholes isn't very good either
07:37:19 <Gracenotes> I suppose the equation for RSA would be ed = 1 mod (p-1)(q-1).. and also mod pq...
07:37:21 <kmc> but that's ok
07:37:46 <Gracenotes> maybe say phi(n), n = pq, gcd(p, q) = 1? ...getting a bit complicated.
07:39:45 <Taneb> It is: pythagoras, logarithms, differentiation, gravity, imaginary numbers, F-E+V=2, normal distribution, wave equation, Fourier transform, Navier-Stokes, Maxwell's equations, the second law of thermodynamics, relativity, Schrodigner's equation, information theory, logistc formula, Black-Scholes
07:39:50 <Gracenotes> okay, so the 17 equations, so to speak, seem to be: 1. Pythagoras's theorem 2. Logarithms 3. Calculus 4. Newton's law of gravity 5. ...
07:40:17 <kmc> do you think public key cryptography changed the world to a comparable degree
07:41:01 <shachaf> imo the world is immutable
07:41:13 <Gracenotes> I mean, crypto has not changed things *that* much, I don't think.
07:41:49 <Gracenotes> crypto has always been important for states.
07:42:13 <Bike> well, obviously anyb ook like that is going to simplify things, and/or make cuts
07:42:21 <kmc> you could claim that none of the tech giants of today would exist without it
07:42:28 <kmc> i'm not really sure about that though
07:42:38 <kmc> I think people don't really give a shit about security when there's enough convenience to be had
07:42:41 <kmc> myself included
07:43:02 <kmc> it used to be you would just read your credit card number out loud on a POTS line
07:43:20 <Gracenotes> hm, so crypto is mentioned in the entropy chapter, mainly the use of basic information theory in cryptanalysis
07:43:22 <kmc> Gracenotes: also, bitcoin, but that's more of a future-potential thing
07:43:31 <Bike> i'm kind of curious how the logistic map is world-changing
07:43:58 <Gracenotes> there's no reason why a bunch of servers couldn't use fancy https
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07:44:00 <Bike> i can't think of any applications for it other than maybe ecology
07:44:10 <Bike> and that's kind of a stretch.
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07:44:20 <Taneb> Bike, he used it to introduce chaos theory
07:44:22 <Gracenotes> Bike: logistic map? I'd have thought basic arithmetic, a la Napier
07:44:29 <kmc> welp i killed irssi somehow
07:44:41 <Bike> Gracenotes: ...what?
07:44:42 <Gracenotes> er, nevermind, conflated with logarithms.
07:44:49 <kmc> probably by banging on the keyboard like a stoned idiot
07:44:56 <Gracenotes> which is what I imagine chapter 2 is about. neverminds.
07:45:14 <Bike> i'm not sure what world-changing appliations chaos theory has had either honestly :P
07:45:23 <Bike> as exciting as staring at double pendulums is
07:45:32 <kmc> have you ever looked at a fractal, on acid
07:45:54 <Bike> now i want a bong that's a double pendulum
07:46:08 <Taneb> kmc, I tried but it dissolved
07:46:09 <Bike> which doesn't even make sense
07:46:14 <Gracenotes> kmc: I'd imagine xaos would be pretty fun.
07:46:25 <Bike> maybe an inverted pendulum bong
07:46:26 <kmc> oh, thanks for the suggestion :)
07:46:35 <Bike> have ot balance it on my head
07:46:49 <Gracenotes> xoas is just generally fun to zoom into
07:47:03 <kmc> you've seen electric sheep, right?
07:47:06 <kmc> sadly not interactive
07:48:01 <kmc> http://www.electricsheep.org/
07:48:48 <Gracenotes> yeah, in xaos, just set the zoom speed really high and try to avoid 'boring' (non-recursive) areas
07:48:54 <kmc> the paper about how they're rendered is cool too http://flam3.com/flame.pdf
07:48:55 <Gracenotes> I used to do that a lot... good way to waste time
07:49:18 <shachaf> whoa, dude, xaos ~~ "chaos"??
07:49:40 <shachaf> i ve always pronounced each letter
07:50:15 <Gracenotes> actually, if you do it on something like Barnsley, it's like falling with a lot of bars in the way
07:51:45 <Taneb> Would it be considered rude to email the author asking for further reading?
07:52:00 <Bike> is there a bibliography, though?
07:52:08 <kmc> shachaf: what are some good channels i'm not in
07:52:33 <kmc> i should probably lurk in ##electronics again, that was pretty great
07:52:38 <Bike> bibliographies are like the best parts of books because there's a billion more books in them
07:52:46 <Bike> ##electronics? is it actually about electronics
07:52:55 <shachaf> (the joke is that #haskell is often not that good :'( )
07:52:57 <Bike> plus the cites are always all over the place
07:53:06 <shachaf> i still like the highs of #haskell though!!
07:53:11 <Bike> my awesome new book on neural development cites hayek, the economist
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07:53:20 <Bike> well FINE jerk
07:53:47 <kmc> Bike: electronics + misc mad science
07:54:17 <Bike> "The natural concept tree: a study of learning in pigeons" pigeons clearly don't get enough credit
07:54:27 <Bike> electronics iss cool and i don't know shit about it etc etc
07:54:41 <shachaf> Bike: then how come http://www.google.com/technology/pigeonrank.html
07:54:58 <kmc> there i'm in ##electronics now
07:55:23 <kmc> what happens there
07:55:25 <Bike> +whatevermeansyoucan'ttagwithoutnickserv
07:55:37 <shachaf> Gracenotes: do you like the iso standard kmc is about to give the number for
07:55:40 <Gracenotes> People make snarky comments about tisanes sometimes for no reason.
07:56:25 <Bike> "I will lol if it's three-phase" yeah this is pretty good
07:56:35 <shachaf> i had tea with Gracenotes once
07:57:08 <Bike> the thing i don't like about bibliographies in books is they don't have the backreferences to where they're cited, like wikipedia articles do
07:57:14 <kmc> IRCing while working with high voltage: the best
07:57:18 <Gracenotes> kmc: what about, like gaiwans and stuff though
07:57:24 <kmc> what's that
07:57:39 <Gracenotes> ISO 3103 is controversial in its cultural imperialism
07:58:09 <Bike> ugh I saw "Ca⁺⁺" and thought it was something about programming, time to sleep
07:59:11 <kmc> Gracenotes: fair point
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08:00:43 <Gracenotes> there are so many options in xaos that are just for screwing with your mind
08:00:53 <Gracenotes> smooth color palette cycling, rotation, autozoom
08:01:04 <Bike> "soviet bcd to decimal decoders" this is fantastic kmc
08:01:14 <Bike> i have no idea what the fuck is going on
08:01:25 <shachaf> should i be in ##electronics
08:01:30 <shachaf> i used to be there but then i left
08:01:34 <kmc> hope i have made your day just a little bit more cyberpunk
08:02:16 <Bike> maybe i can get into BEAM through this somehow
08:03:49 <shachaf> kmc: you could also give a talk at the mountain view haskell thing
08:04:07 <shachaf> or you could go see conal's talk
08:04:14 <kmc> what's conal's talk
08:04:40 <shachaf> Unless other offers surface, Conal will give a talk. Some possible topics: top-down vs bottom-up data structures, memoization, automatic differentiation, denotational semantics, circuit timing via linear algebra. If you have a talk offer or request, please chime in.
08:04:50 <kmc> that's good stuff
08:05:07 <kmc> i wonder if people would like a "Rust for Haskell programmers" talk
08:05:12 <kmc> i'm not qualified to give one yet, though
08:05:26 <Bike> http://dickhealth.org/post/52887357182/my-dick-looks-like-a-perilous-thicket-of-briers aaaaand gone
08:05:56 <shachaf> kmc: why should you let that stop you
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08:19:00 <fizzie> I shouldn't use the IRC input line for notes.)
08:33:58 <oerjan> fizzie: *MWAHAHAHA* we know your secret notes!
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08:50:30 <fizzie> I was just fiddling with gstreamer; I've always wanted to take a time-lapse picture of something, but my camera doesn't know how to do that; realized the other day that the N900 has a passable camera, and can be controlled programmatically.
08:51:58 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/fCXS seems to work nicely for capturing one 1080p-sized frame per second over wifi. (JPEG'd, unfortunately; raw frames are too big for the TCP part.)
08:55:26 <fizzie> "Gunna" be the most exciting video on the YouTubes for sure https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130709-frame00000000.jpg
08:56:15 <fizzie> (In some frames... there's... a car...)
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09:04:12 <fizzie> Oh no, my video camera started ringing. :/
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09:06:49 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130709-frame00000963.jpg -- apparently taking a picture and vibrating aren't really supposed to be done simultaneously.
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10:36:02 <Taneb> shachaf: what was that thingy that ion was working on
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10:37:36 <shachaf> Well, there are these types Mu/Nu/Fix.
10:38:05 <shachaf> They're all equivalent, in Haskell. The exercises were to write mu2nu and so on, and figure out some things about them.
10:38:27 <Taneb> Give me definitions of the types and I will give it an independent go?
10:38:46 <shachaf> newtype Fix f = Fix { runFix :: f (Fix f) }
10:38:56 <shachaf> newtype Mu f = Mu { runMu :: forall r. (f r -> r) -> r }
10:39:07 <shachaf> data Nu f = forall x. Nu x (x -> f x)
10:39:26 <shachaf> So the exercises are, uh...
10:40:15 <shachaf> Mu Maybe/Nu Maybe = Nat, more or less. Without using recursion or Nat, write muZero, muSucc, muToInt, nuZero, nuSucc, etc.
10:40:56 <shachaf> Figure out what the differences (and the similarities) are between Mu Maybe and Nu Maybe.
10:41:05 <shachaf> Um, there was something else I was going to say.
10:41:08 <Taneb> I don't even have a syntax highlighter on this computer...
10:41:31 <Taneb> It's not my computer, I wouldn't feel right installing it
10:41:41 <shachaf> You should get ghci somehow.
10:41:42 <Taneb> mu2fix (Mu r) = r Fix
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10:43:42 <shachaf> Oh: Write inMu :: Functor f => f (Mu f) -> Mu f, and similarly for outMu, inNu, outNu
10:44:17 <shachaf> (Easy version: Write inFix and outFix.)
10:44:50 <shachaf> Prove that Mu F and Nu F are fixed points of F (tricky).
10:50:26 <Taneb> fix2mu (Fix f) = Mu $ \r -> r $ flip (runMu . fix2mu) r <$> f
10:52:02 <shachaf> If it type-checks then I guess so?
10:52:10 <Taneb> I have no idea if it typechecks!
10:52:30 <Taneb> I have some idea whether it type-checks or not
10:52:47 <Taneb> But I'm just doing this in Notepad and my brain
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11:08:35 <Taneb> fix2nu f = Nu f runFix
11:08:49 <Taneb> (I'm using School of Haskell to test my code now)
11:08:58 <Taneb> (that compiles but feels weird...)
11:09:29 <shachaf> Weirder than: mu2fix m = runMu m Fix ?
11:09:40 <shachaf> It looks exactly dual to me. :-)
11:11:51 <Taneb> I'm not used to existential quantification
11:12:06 <shachaf> Well, it's actually not weird.
11:12:22 <shachaf> But it's weird when you're not used to it.
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11:16:21 <Taneb> Am I allowed to say mu2nu = fix2nu . mu2fix ?
11:17:06 <shachaf> Sure, I guess. Or you're allowed to to inline them.
11:17:17 <shachaf> It's also possible to write mu2nu without the Fix type, but trickier.
11:17:42 <Koen_> Chasles applied to haskell function composition?
11:18:05 <Taneb> The other way round introduces a functor constraint which I do not know whether it is necessary or not
11:18:38 <Taneb> Thinking about it, it seems necessary?
11:20:10 <Taneb> On another note, Ian Stewart's personal webpage looks very 1997
11:20:16 <Taneb> http://freespace.virgin.net/ianstewart.joat/index.htm
11:21:26 <shachaf> cata :: Functor f => (f a -> a) -> Fix f -> a
11:21:49 <shachaf> ana :: Functor f => (a -> f a) -> a -> Fix f
11:22:29 <shachaf> hylo :: Functor f => (f b -> b) -> (a -> f a) -> a -> b
11:22:38 <shachaf> These functions should seem familiar.
11:22:47 <shachaf> These are the "hard" directions.
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11:39:18 <Taneb> I think I have gone wrong somewhere
11:39:29 <Taneb> > print $ muToInt $ muSucc $ muSucc $ muSucc muZero
11:39:30 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `muToInt'Not in scope: `muSucc'Not in scope: `muSucc'Not in s...
11:40:21 <Taneb> It seems I've written "double and add one" instead of succ
11:41:45 <shachaf> It might help -- especially with Nu -- to write one, two, etc. yourself before writing succ.
11:41:57 <Taneb> I'm doing that with Mu
11:43:12 <Taneb> Okay, got it working this time
11:43:58 <shachaf> Taneb: You can also write the isomorphism between Mu Maybe and newtype Nat = Nat { runNat :: forall a. (a -> a) -> a -> a }, if you feel like it.
11:44:03 <shachaf> (But it's pretty straightforward.)
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13:21:02 <elliott> is there anything that can simulate having additional latency on a network connection?
13:21:16 <elliott> it would be nice to be able to see for myself how much e.g. some additional ping would affect irssi in mosh
13:22:52 <boily> IIRC, if you run your stuff in virtualbox, there are options to simulate lag and packet drop in vbox's network config.
13:24:09 <elliott> so I could like proxy mosh through a virtualbox with a simulated bad internet connection :p
13:24:37 <boily> something convoluted and hackish like that, yes.
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13:33:02 <fizzie> Linux's traffic shaping layer has the "netem" module for that, but it's probably not the most user-friendly way.
13:33:33 <fizzie> http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/networking/netem "This is the simplest example, it just adds a fixed amount of delay to all packets going out of the local Ethernet. [[ tc qdisc add dev eth0 root netem delay 100ms ]]"
13:33:39 <fizzie> I guess that's not so hard, after all.
13:33:47 <elliott> fizzie: I figured out why Tilaa's pricing was so absurd: I'm paying $20/mo now, but I was converting the euro prices to GBP and going "ooh, it's 20, like I'm paying now".
13:34:53 <boily> fizzie: netem's not hard, just complex, and a powerful timewaster where you can tweak your day away and not notice anything.
13:35:18 <fizzie> Also: I have just successfully captured a three-and-a-quarter hour video (6 minutes, 28 seconds at 30 fps) of the view from the window of this office. It is MOST EXCITING.
13:36:15 <elliott> hm I guess I should take another look at hetzner
13:36:19 <elliott> though tilaa's prices are still good
13:36:30 <boily> I humbly request that you shall provide me with this EXCITEMENT you are talking about.
13:37:09 <elliott> fizzie: don't do it. he's just trying to deduce your coordinates and body weigh.
13:39:12 <boily> elliott: no need for deduction, I already have them.
13:39:32 <boily> (that reminds me, I should calligraphy and frame the list. it truly is a work of art and beauty and weigh)
13:41:51 <Jafet> My coordinates are $$\bf{0}$$.
13:45:16 <fizzie> I should probably upload it to YouTube, I'm sure I'd win it.
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13:47:26 <boily> Jafet: your coordinates are nearly as creativuseless as elliot's were.
13:47:37 <fizzie> (First, though; home.)
13:58:36 <elliott> Gregor: can UMLBox do "read access to this directory but write access to this single filename in it (that may or may not exist)"?
14:00:35 <Gregor> No, its permissions are based on mounts so are only at the directory level.
14:01:38 <elliott> I guess you could do it with a unionfs of some kind?
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14:49:51 <fizzie> boily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0w8rDXZohA if you can HANDLE IT.
15:01:04 <boily> fizzie: the TREES are nice, as are the DOGS.
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15:54:18 <fizzie> I wonder if it's gonna "go viral". I understand that happens when you upload to the tube.
15:56:58 <Jafet> I'm not sure if I want to be infected by that.
15:58:16 <boily> I, for one, welcome our new Finnish overlords.
15:58:21 <kmc> shachaf: did you get booted from irc.mozilla.org?
15:58:33 <elliott> did shachaf overdo the monoids jokes
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16:00:20 <ion> https://medium.com/surveillance-state/a6e0e5fca935
16:00:32 <ion> I love monoid jokes. They are so easy.
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16:13:19 <Yonkie> monoid jokes? what is it?
16:13:51 <coppro> ion: I find they typically lack depth
16:18:52 <kmc> elliott: yeah you can use netem, or keithw's thing http://alfalfa.mit.edu/
16:19:00 <kmc> which takes an actual trace of delivery times on a cell network and replays it
16:19:37 <elliott> suspect I'm out of luck being stuck on OS X
16:19:43 <elliott> unless I do the hideous virtualbox solution
16:22:49 <kmc> write a LD_PRELOAD or whatever the OS equiv is that just slows down network calls
16:22:52 <kmc> OS X equiv*
16:24:43 <elliott> at that point it becomes easier to spend the $20 on a month's service so I can just test it :P
16:27:36 <kmc> but where's the hack value in that
16:28:04 <Jafet> If you really want to test a high latency connection, you should use a service that charges $5
16:30:48 <kmc> in the rust language meeting
16:31:49 <elliott> have you told them it's weird as heck yet
16:31:55 <kmc> people are discussing whether to continue to use linked lists of small bits of memory as a stack
16:32:42 <elliott> spaghetti stack type stuff?
16:32:49 <kmc> yeah probably
16:33:04 <elliott> also, whine whine conflation of language and implementation whine whine that I don't actually have the heart to care about
16:33:13 <kmc> well it's the rust implementation meeting too ;P
16:33:30 <elliott> they should have them in separate buildings
16:33:36 <elliott> have to be decontaminated to pass between them
16:33:39 <kmc> also it might end up in the language because when you call a C function it needs to give you a big contiguous stack, and there will be an annotation to say how much you want
16:33:45 <elliott> and no bringing in materials from one to the other
16:33:47 <kmc> and whether to do it earlier than necessary
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16:45:19 <elliott> kmc: do they actually need to set up a full stack for C FFI
16:46:21 <kmc> well your C function wants some stack
16:46:30 <kmc> it's not going to call the magic __morestack function or whatever
16:47:12 <jsvine> After a few weeks of being distracted by another project, I'm back on #esoteric
16:47:25 <kmc> elliott: this is only really a problem on 32-bit; on 64-bit you can just allocate 2MB of address space per stack and let the VM subsystem fill in pages as needed
16:47:49 <elliott> kmc: oh I see, it is not that the stack gets filled in with entries corresponding to rust
16:47:55 <elliott> do they really care about 32-bit :p
16:48:04 <kmc> elliott: yeah, because Servo is supposed to be a mobile browser too
16:48:14 <kmc> and mobile is going to be 32-bit for a while yet
16:48:18 <elliott> um, like, I thought you meant that they'd allocate a stack for C FFI and then fill it with entries corresponding to rust call frames.
16:48:38 <elliott> hm, isn't RAM in phones pushing 1-2 gigs now?
16:48:47 <elliott> I guess they can just do PAE type stuff for a long while
16:49:09 <kmc> phones have a lot of processes running
16:49:25 <kmc> but I think it'll be a while yet before low-end phones have >4 GB
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17:27:54 <boily> I was quietly, randomly "fortune -a"ing, and once again I stumbled upon a very short and mysterious message:
17:27:56 <Taneb> shachaf, I got stuck and wandered off
17:28:04 <boily> “Mene, mene, tekel, upharsen.”
17:28:38 <boily> anyone here has an idea about its meaning?
17:29:13 <Taneb> Sounds German? Possibly Yiddish?
17:29:32 <fizzie> [[ The expression originates from the Book of Daniel, Chapter 5, from the handwriting on the wall that was witnessed at a banquet hosted by king Belshazzar. As those at the feast profaned the sacred vessels pillaged from the Jerusalem Temple, a disembodied hand appeared and wrote on the palace wall the words, "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin". The prophet Daniel was summoned and interpreted this ...
17:29:38 <fizzie> ... message as the imminent end for the Babylonian kingdom. That night, Belshazzar was killed and the Persians sacked the capital city. ]]
17:29:48 <fizzie> (I have looked this up for a different place where it was referred to. Bored of the Rings, perhaps.)
17:30:11 <ion> http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/07/09/0052211/sent-to-jail-because-of-a-software-bug?utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt
17:30:15 <boily> google translate says it's Norwegian. it's biblical enough for me.
17:30:37 <boily> «Believe, believe, Tekel, upharsin.»
17:31:18 <Taneb> Ya gotta believe me, Tekel, they be upharsin', I tell ya!
17:31:19 <fizzie> http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%205:25&version=KJV
17:32:21 <boily> Taneb: maybe upharsin is Old Norse for "fternooner".
17:32:45 <fizzie> "[26] This is the interpretation of the thing: /Mene/; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. [27] /Tekel/; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. [28] /Peres/; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians." -- also the translation.
17:33:23 <fizzie> I'm not sure why it's "Peres" when it was "Upharsin" just three verses up, but I'm sure it's some kinda language thing.
17:33:42 <Taneb> What's the etymology of "doona", as in the Australian-English synonym of duvet?
17:34:34 <Taneb> Oh, it was a brand name
17:35:15 <Taneb> From Scandinavian "dyna"?
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17:38:15 <Taneb> Also! (I am easily distracted)
17:38:22 <Taneb> No wait, that is a stupid idea
17:39:52 <Taneb> Wait! It is a less stupid idea than I previously thought!
17:40:06 <Taneb> Still pretty stupid, though
17:40:13 * boily distractingly pokes Taneb
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17:40:27 <Taneb> Using different colours to compress memory!
17:40:52 <Taneb> ~metar oh god I am on holiday and do not know the nearest airport
17:41:45 <metasepia> EGNH 091720Z 30007KT CAVOK 21/14 Q1027
17:42:34 <boily> hm. both wightian airfields aren't listed...
17:42:35 <Taneb> Isle of Wight/Sandown airport is closest
17:42:57 <Taneb> Send an angry message to the metarthorities
17:43:24 <boily> I'll have to implement multiple metarsources.
17:44:09 <metasepia> EGHI 091720Z 03009KT 360V070 CAVOK 24/08 Q1025
17:45:11 <boily> wunderground puts you in Southampton when searching for EGHN.
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17:47:35 <Taneb> To be fair, Southamption is about as close to the Isle of Wight you can get without actually being on the Isle of Wight or a boat or getting quite wet
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17:53:33 <Gracenotes> My favorite series of rhymes involving areas of Britain is "All those angry letter writers / Like disgusted from the Isle of Wight and / Mad from Hull, and outraged from Leeds / And slightly annoyed from Berwick-on-Tweed"
17:54:29 <Gracenotes> s/and/or/ if you like feminine half-rhymes.
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17:55:45 <boily> we had a Hull in Québec, but it was assimilated into Gatineau / Ottawa.
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18:30:30 <boily> katla: oh yeah? yeah about what?
18:36:08 <Bike> oh shit, it's beaky
18:42:02 <Bike> he's saying sentences that seem to convey information!! shocking
18:42:33 <elliott> i heard about soldering iron aventures
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18:58:19 <metasepia> As the recent sightings of bumper stickers reading "IN CASE OF RAPTURE, THIS
18:58:19 <metasepia> VEHICLE WILL BE UNMANNED" have created a great deal of confusion, Fortune
18:58:19 <metasepia> offers the following excerpts from the 1989 printing of the State of Maryland
18:58:19 <metasepia> If you notice a glorious light in the sky, a sound as of an infinite
18:58:20 <metasepia> choir of unearthly voices, and a host of winged beings descending from the
18:58:20 <metasepia> heavens, do not panic. If you are on the freeway, move to the shoulder as
18:58:21 <metasepia> soon as it is safe to do so, activate your hazard blinkers, and wait for the
18:58:21 <metasepia> end of the world. If you are Saved, it is especially important that you do
18:58:22 <metasepia> this BEFORE you are carried to your Eternal Reward, in order that your vehicle
18:58:22 <metasepia> not become a hazard to others. Remember, Rapture is the number one cause of
18:58:23 <metasepia> automobile accidents during major spiritual upheavals. You may experience a
18:58:23 <metasepia> feeling of discorporation ("being pulled from one's body") while driving. To
18:58:24 <metasepia> ensure the safety of your passengers and other drivers, move to the shoulder
18:58:54 <boily> ah! I hit a flood!
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19:19:52 <metasepia> The real trouble with women is that they have *all* the pussy.
19:21:55 <elliott> metasepia.................
19:22:18 * boily smacks his bot with a rolled newspaper. "bad bot"
19:22:20 <mnoqy> is that supposed to mean
19:22:21 <metasepia> Pig: An animal (Porcus omnivorous) closely allied to the human race by the
19:22:21 <metasepia> splendor and vivacity of its appetite, which, however, is inferior in scope,
19:23:22 <FreeFull> I don't get the ones with the uppercase words
19:23:27 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/hZWW I... don't think that's right.
19:23:44 <FreeFull> For example this one: "When I met th'POPE back in '58, I scrubbed him with a MILD SOAP or DETERGENT for 15 minutes. He seemed to enjoy it ..."
19:24:46 <boily> those are zippy-the-pinhead-like. a kind of surreal madlib, if you want.
19:25:12 <boily> fizzie: that sounds awfully similar to a grad student research project.
19:25:34 <fizzie> boily: In reality, it's just non-study-related fiddling.
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19:33:04 <fizzie> As usual, it was a case of nuns-in-nuns-out. I mean, NaNs.
19:35:52 <boily> another victim of St-nAnne of the Sisterhood of Uncomputable Numbers.
19:36:03 <Gracenotes> incidentally, maybe the brand name 'Cutter' isn't the best for a U-lock
19:36:40 <coppro> boily: fun problem: what is 0x1p1023 + 0x1p1023 - 0x1p1023 - 0x1p1023?
19:37:30 * boily uses his fingers...
19:38:55 <boily> coppro: I end up with a green zebra.
19:39:06 <boily> I think I made a mental mistake somewhere...
19:40:43 <boily> coppro: that equation put into an unsigned long long, then printfed, gives me 0.
19:41:45 <coppro> FreeFull: floating point exponent
19:42:20 <coppro> boily: in floating point it's variously +inf,-inf, 0, and NaN depending on how you order the operations
19:42:52 <boily> now that I doubled it, I get +inf.
19:43:02 <Gracenotes> this is annoying, nonetheless, I need to get a bike lock that's convenient to use, but I also do want to get a better bike within a few months.
19:52:48 <fizzie> The whole channel would certainly benefit from a better bike.
19:53:38 <Gracenotes> Fuck. Anyone who has anything to do with bicycles and bicycle locks doesn't remotely fucking believe in cool URIs
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20:07:16 <fizzie> I made a soundtrack to that u-tube video, but can't figure out how to paste it in posthumously.
20:10:04 <fizzie> I guess it's not a possible.
20:18:10 <FreeFull> Youtube editor thing could work
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21:07:19 <kmc> it disconnected me and wouldn't let me reconnect with SSL on port 6697
21:07:22 <kmc> only plaintext on 6667
21:07:56 * shachaf is using plaintext anyway.
21:18:27 <kmc> first servo patch \o/ https://github.com/mozilla/servo/commit/cfffd0542404b60923f3f524f5144693d9b89f00
21:18:35 <kmc> myndzi: <3
21:18:49 <kmc> that kind of looks like he's hanging onto a cliff made of text o_O
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21:19:45 <Fiora> kmc: is that your first patch at mozilla? :o
21:19:54 <shachaf> what kind of equality does it derive
21:20:00 <elliott> kmc: mozilla getting their money's worth there
21:20:03 <kmc> shachaf: the best kind
21:20:05 <kmc> elliott: ikr
21:20:08 <elliott> kmc, Head Instance Deriver
21:20:18 <kmc> today instances, tomorrow the world
21:20:27 <Fiora> congrats! also, nice that your first patch actually removes code XD
21:20:36 <kmc> i am pleased about that
21:20:42 <kmc> removing code is the best
21:20:45 <elliott> ok now you have to keep a net negative.
21:20:55 <kmc> elliott: I was net negative on Mosh for a long time
21:21:01 <kmc> because I deleted a bunch of bundled third party libraries
21:21:10 <elliott> btw what is their really wacky merge thing like
21:21:11 <Bike> kmcodedestroyer
21:21:21 <kmc> it's not too bad
21:21:54 <kmc> you open a pull request the normal way, then someone reviews it and replies with "r+" to accept it, then the bot merges to branch auto, runs tests on several platforms, and if that passes it merges to master
21:22:42 <elliott> what happens to auto if the tests fail
21:22:59 <kmc> chaos in the streets
21:24:11 <shachaf> so an instance is called an "implementation"
21:24:25 <shachaf> betraying rust's operational roots
21:24:48 <elliott> so what is the point of auto if it doesn't handle tests failing...
21:26:01 <kmc> it probably does something sane, I just don't know what ;P
21:28:23 <elliott> maybe I should work on rust
21:28:26 <elliott> instead of being bored half the time
21:30:59 <elliott> unfortunately I am lazy 100% of the time
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21:42:52 <HackEgo> Ermelys: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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21:46:16 <Koen_> did the colours change?
21:46:36 <mnoqy> they were never fixed
21:50:21 <HackEgo> Koen_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:50:58 <oerjan> hm i'm wondering if all the spanish speakers are just because our channel starts with es...
21:52:15 <Koen_> my rainbow is better than yours Ermelys
21:52:24 <elliott> oerjan: let's move to #oteric
21:52:51 <oerjan> "Did you mean: esoteric"
21:53:49 <oerjan> something tells me S. Oteric on facebook is not using his real name.
21:54:30 <oerjan> also no:oter = en:otter
22:01:11 <oerjan> (by which i mean that it looks related through a few plausible sound changes)
22:02:18 <oerjan> especially as dropping w before o is something that happened in norse.
22:02:34 <oerjan> (e.g. no:ulv = en:wolf)
22:02:46 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:03:02 <oerjan> no:odin older_germanic:wotan
22:03:44 -!- Bike has joined.
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22:04:36 <oerjan> yes, but does it refer to the _norse_ god or to the corresponding ancient polish/slavic god
22:05:09 <oerjan> because if it was really anciently related, it'd be the latter.
22:05:33 <FreeFull> Slavic gods are a different parthenon
22:06:52 <HackEgo> olist (898): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
22:06:58 <shachaf> oerjan: how come you didn't tell me :'(
22:07:31 <oerjan> because i just found out at the same time as you hth
22:08:00 <Koen_> there's a bug on my screen
22:08:10 <Koen_> apparently it likes your 'l's
22:08:56 <oerjan> = no:bomull, although that's a half-translated borrowing from de:Baumwolle
22:09:38 <shachaf> oerjan: oh it came out 8 minutes ago
22:09:38 <oerjan> i suspect the polish is as well
22:10:54 <oerjan> huh, i vaguely didn't think cotton was known in europe in proto-times
22:11:04 <fizzie> (fi:puuvilla, also "tree wool".)
22:11:23 <oerjan> well maybe it's a compound of ba- and wełna
22:11:36 <oerjan> FreeFull: so does ba- mean tree in polish too, then?
22:12:12 <oerjan> ...that doesn't prove ba- doesn't mean tree :P
22:14:00 <FreeFull> oerjan: Ba doesn't mean tree =P
22:14:07 <oerjan> huh america had their own cotton plants which were domesticated
22:14:38 <oerjan> "During the late medieval period, cotton became known as an imported fiber in northern Europe, without any knowledge of how it was derived, other than that it was a plant; noting its similarities to wool, people in the region could only imagine that cotton must be produced by plant-borne sheep."
22:15:36 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_Lamb_of_Tartary
22:17:51 <kmc> also it was once believed that barnacle geese hatch out of goose barnacles
22:18:00 <Gracenotes> this is more meat-from-meat, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mock_Turtle
22:30:41 <Vorpal> That sounds like a rather nasty disease. :(
22:30:52 <kmc> "oh the horping balls"
22:31:10 <Vorpal> Now you made it sound like an STD
22:31:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, Your link in the lambdabot message. It isn't working, even after enabling js on that site.
22:32:39 <Vorpal> Let me try another browser
22:33:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that a home made pano head?
22:34:34 <Vorpal> Also I'm TRYING to install the haskell platform on this windows machine.
22:34:53 <Vorpal> I hit a bug though where it locks up on adding stuff to PATH. For about 15 minutes per item it is adding.
22:35:08 <Vorpal> There is a bug report open
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22:40:08 <shachaf> This is like some kind of pattern.
22:40:12 <kmc> do you know mike4_
22:40:13 <FreeFull> Windows sucks, so I don't think the haskell people don't concentrate on it as much
22:40:18 <kmc> also which pattern
22:40:51 <elliott> is he linking to articles that prove crypto is a waste of time
22:41:05 <kmc> he's just being thick
22:41:31 <oerjan> well i _did_ succeed in installing the haskell platform on windows (8) the other day, it may have been slow but it was relatively painless. the pain happened when i tried to run cabal install :P
22:41:33 <FreeFull> Why would crypto be a waste of time?
22:41:36 <elliott> vaguely considering joining ##crypto just to see the trolls
22:41:49 <oerjan> (_don't_ try to do it from inside winghci hth)
22:41:53 <elliott> FreeFull: it seems to be his schtick
22:41:59 <shachaf> kmc: a "migratory" pattern, maybe
22:42:06 <kmc> does he join #haskell and link articles to prove haskell is a waste of time
22:42:08 <shachaf> of people from #haskell to ##crypto
22:42:09 <FreeFull> Without crypto there wouldn't be online banking =P
22:42:10 <kmc> is that the pattern
22:43:08 <shachaf> 08:20:25 <mike4_> does haskell compare in performance speed to C or C++?
22:43:08 <elliott> just standard "justify haskell to me" stuff, along with linking an obvious troll article about FP sucking
22:43:08 <shachaf> 08:22:03 <mike4_> it runs like python and java?
22:43:08 <shachaf> 08:22:54 <mike4_> does haskell run as fast as python.
22:43:08 <shachaf> 08:23:23 <mike4_> but slower than c and c++
22:43:10 <shachaf> 08:25:23 <mike4_> well does Haskell apps run slower than C and C++?
22:43:23 <shachaf> haskell/13.05.02:09:06:34 <mike4_> please check that link that gives an extensive critique on FUNCTIONAL PROGRAMMING.
22:43:32 <shachaf> haskell/13.05.02:09:07:53 <mike4_> Why go functional even! Please!
22:44:18 <Gracenotes> your program will terminate the quickest if you print out "Segmentation fault" and exit(139)
22:44:24 <FreeFull> Well, show me a non-functional programming language where the compiler tells you if you're doing something wrong with your red-black tree
22:44:40 <shachaf> hmm, mike4_ has been more prolific than i thought
22:44:43 <Bike> they don't care
22:45:16 <elliott> shachaf: any other nicks other than philosophy?
22:45:17 <oerjan> FreeFull: windows is a supported platform for the platform. it's just that ... argh wtf can't this touchpad control program keep my touchpad settings under control between hibernations...
22:45:24 <elliott> (which I already knew about)
22:45:35 <shachaf> elliott: That's the one I meant.
22:45:43 <shachaf> haskell/13.04.24:11:58:35 <philosophy> hi, i thought programming was about solving peoples problems, instead of creating more.
22:45:46 <nooodl> mmm i really wanna see this anti-FP article
22:45:49 <shachaf> haskell/13.04.24:12:07:06 <philosophy> can hakshell be used in the field to make real world applications?
22:46:04 <shachaf> these mike4_ logs are p. great
22:46:05 <elliott> nooodl: it's from a blog that also contains posts about how einstein was wrong and something about AI based on the bible.
22:46:05 <Bike> it's another dumb bullshit thing
22:46:10 <Bike> every dumb bullshit thing you've ever seen
22:46:13 <elliott> nooodl: so uh... maybe you actually do
22:46:14 <Bike> once fucking again
22:46:25 <Bike> no shut up i am the final arbiter on nooodl's opinions!
22:46:38 <Fiora> Bike: http://koryos.tumblr.com/post/55022432802/ this is amazingly up your alley
22:46:50 <Bike> is it about noooooodl ooooopinioooons
22:46:58 <Bike> "all right guys here it is THE BIG GAY ANIMAL SEX POST" fiora.
22:47:29 <Fiora> fun fact: according to observations over 90% of giraffe sex is between two males
22:48:05 <Fiora> and it's after they duel. so basically they fight and then make out
22:48:17 <Bike> giraffes more like gayraffes.
22:48:23 <Fiora> really though this is totally your thing.
22:48:34 <Bike> fiora thinks bikes are super into gay bestiality
22:48:44 <elliott> when I think of Bike I immediately think "fighting and then making out"
22:49:05 <Bike> what are you implying
22:49:06 <Fiora> I think you're into evolutionary biology, doofus :p
22:49:18 <Bike> also i wouldn't be surprised if prairie dogs could say "steve from accounting is super hot"
22:49:39 <elliott> I think I'm hitting on you again. that seems to happen a lot
22:49:45 <elliott> bicycles and their two-wheeled temptations.............
22:49:50 <shachaf> nooodl: http://rebelscience.blogspot.com/2007/09/functional-programming-is-worse-than.html
22:49:50 <Bike> "I just wanted to stick my chip in the other dip" help
22:50:03 <elliott> do prairie dogs have accounting
22:50:04 <shachaf> What most FP theorists fail to explain is that, in FP, the function itself is the variable. The variable value of functions are kept on the stack and are used as arguments for other functions. One function affects another. Insisting that there are no variables and thus no side effects in FP is wishful thinking at best and crackpottery at worst.
22:50:19 <Bike> shachaf: seriously, can w e not
22:50:36 <kmc> what the fuck has happened to this channel in the 2 min i was away filling out paperowkr
22:50:44 <Bike> gayraffes, hth.
22:51:02 <kmc> functional-programming-is-worse-than-hitler.html
22:51:02 <Gracenotes> Bike: I am enjoying the article thus far
22:51:06 * Fiora tries to hide her giggling at work at the word "gayraffes"
22:51:09 <Bike> yeah it's probably good
22:51:10 <kmc> Bike: want to fight and then make out?
22:51:15 <Bike> i just need to give fiora a hard time
22:51:19 <Bike> kmc: only if it's with elliott sorry
22:51:23 <elliott> i always knew kmc was a bicycle
22:51:46 <Bike> i mean it is THE BIG GAY ANIMAL SEX POST
22:51:49 <Bike> i can't not make some fun
22:52:25 <Fiora> "Long story short, if you have a fetish, somewhere out there there is probably an animal who has it too. Congratulations."
22:52:32 <Gracenotes> I don't know if I would want to be a bike. People would alternatively lock me up and ride me.
22:52:42 <ion> esolangs.org/wiki/THE_BIG_GAY_ANIMAL_SEX_LANGUAGE
22:52:45 <Bike> "Physically, there’s not much birds can do to have homosexual sex- their junk is not designed in such a way" tragic, imo
22:53:12 <shachaf> ion: did you get good intuition for existentials hth
22:53:31 <Bike> this post reminds me of a lot of uncomfortably detailed drawings of bird sex
22:53:32 <Gracenotes> I'm not sure this isn't a parody. See "if your computer uses fine-grain parallelism (this is the future of computing, you can bet on it), FP will not support it because functions are inherently algorithmic."
22:53:43 <ion> shachaf: Some, but i’ll still need to ponder what’s going on a bit more.
22:53:54 <shachaf> ion: so did you notice that foldr :: [a] -> Mu (ListF a), and unfoldr :: Nu (ListF a) -> [a]
22:54:07 <Bike> oh my, this is a photo of an elliott fisting
22:54:24 <kmc> don't birds basically just rub their cloacae together
22:54:27 <kmc> for like 0.5 seconds
22:54:28 <Bike> Gracenotes: i assume elliott called it an obvious troll for a reason
22:54:30 <Bike> i meant elephant
22:54:36 <Bike> but you know what, ok.
22:54:44 <elliott> it's crackpottery, not trollery
22:54:45 <kmc> Bike: can you send me that picture when i'm not at work ok
22:54:48 <kmc> plz and thx
22:54:53 <ion> shachaf: I hadn’t thought about that, but i can see it.
22:54:54 <Gracenotes> well, I also give crazies the benefit of the doubt
22:54:59 <Bike> i don't know when you're not at work though
22:55:10 <kmc> then i'll send it to my gf
22:55:13 <kmc> ok i'll let you know
22:55:15 <shachaf> foldr :: (Maybe (a,b) -> b) -> [a] -> b
22:55:16 <Bike> i'm actually reading this in front of something else, i am glad he's not paying attention
22:55:33 <elliott> `addquote <Bike> oh my, this is a photo of an elliott fisting [...] <Bike> i meant elephant <Bike> but you know what, ok. <kmc> Bike: ... <kmc> Bike: can you send me that picture when i'm not at work ok <kmc> plz and thx
22:55:37 <HackEgo> 1068) <Bike> oh my, this is a photo of an elliott fisting [...] <Bike> i meant elephant <Bike> but you know what, ok. <kmc> Bike: ... <kmc> Bike: can you send me that picture when i'm not at work ok <kmc> plz and thx
22:55:56 <Bike> darn, no digression on sexual torture
22:56:36 <Gracenotes> that's not safe for work at moz? man... I dunno if I'd want to work there now...
22:56:53 <elliott> unfortunately elliott fisting is illegal in all 52 states
22:57:24 <Bike> underground elliott fisting ring
22:57:37 <shachaf> the 50 us states, the second world, and the third world?
22:57:38 <ion> Btw, the elliotts^Welephants do that for the nutrition in poop, not for kicks.
22:57:57 <Bike> "If animals didn’t find sex enjoyable, would they masturbate so much? And let me tell you, if an animal can figure out a way to pleasure itself, by god it will do it all the damn time. I work with monkeys. Don’t test me." it's hard to argue here
22:58:10 <kmc> itt bonobos
22:58:25 <elliott> can confirm I do it for the poop nutrition
22:58:31 <Bike> actually they said they weren't going to talk about bonobo sex because everyone already does that, lol
22:58:37 <elliott> shachaf: the other two are classified
22:59:03 <Bike> hm, the evolution of sex part is less detailed than i'd like
22:59:11 <Bike> needs more mushrooms, imo
22:59:47 <FreeFull> Haskell doesn't have variables, only constants
22:59:49 <Bike> "Above: A wasp-imitating orchid. Below: A male wasp gradually losing his self-confidence."
23:00:16 <elliott> f x = x*2 -- on the right hand side x is a variable
23:00:19 <Bike> you know a while ago i talked to somebody said haskell didn't have variables so they didn't change
23:00:26 <Bike> so i said \x -> x + 1
23:00:27 <Bike> and that was that.
23:00:40 <elliott> or IOW if Haskell doesn't have variables neither does mathematics and that's where the term comes from :P
23:01:08 <shachaf> elliott: but the x on the left hand side is the same x
23:01:18 <shachaf> therefore that one is a variable too hth
23:01:24 <FreeFull> Bike: That isn't a variable changing though
23:01:39 <elliott> ok well how about I just link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_(mathematics)
23:01:51 <Bike> different invocations could have different values of x though
23:02:06 <elliott> because I used to say this years ago and now I have to repent for it by arguing against it
23:02:12 <elliott> because I was an obnoxious jerk about it to oerjan :'(
23:02:14 <shachaf> Bike: f :: () -> (); f x = x
23:02:24 <Bike> ok whatever you just said: i don't care.
23:02:42 <Bike> FreeFull: this is seriously the same as math, man. is x a "binding" instead of a "variable" in f(x) = x²?
23:04:24 <Bike> "Sex: It’s not just for sex." thanks
23:05:26 <Bike> oh boy, pederastic elephants (elliotts)
23:06:36 <Bike> no mention of zw chromosomes :'(
23:07:16 <shachaf> ion: next exercize is codensity and density hth
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23:09:18 <Fiora> Bike: the platypus still has the best chromosomes
23:10:14 <shachaf> oh wow the last paragraph of the link nooodl asked for is so great
23:11:37 <Bike> "i’m looking up stuff for my animal homosexuality post and i found a book describing sexual behavior between groups of male gray whales, the official scientific term for which is slip-and-slide orgies" i can dig it
23:11:50 <Fiora> .... slip and slide
23:11:59 <Fiora> biologists are actually amazing people
23:12:16 <elliott> are we sure this isn't just biologist code for talking about their own sex
23:12:35 <elliott> "you know those giraffes, yeah, they're, like, 90% gay. giraffes. yep"
23:12:44 <Bike> masters of disguise
23:13:13 <mnoqy> official scientific term??
23:13:23 <Bike> 'oh yeah, i study, uh, platypi. yes they're real. i'll uh, i'll make you a model, don't worry. they get up to some kinky shit though lemme tell you'
23:13:40 <Bike> mnoqy: yeah it's silly
23:13:57 <elliott> registered with the scientific term office
23:14:16 <Bike> you know they actually have that for chemistry
23:14:19 <Bike> not for gay whales, unfortunately
23:16:31 <Bike> hm, i forget if there's a central organization for binomial names or if they just agree...
23:20:02 <shachaf> wow does every binomial have its own name
23:20:44 <Bike> that pun is bad + you are bad
23:21:14 <Bike> yes because it's bad.
23:21:17 <ion> that pun is bad + you are bad + 0 = that pun is bad + you are bad
23:26:28 <Bike> binomial names of species versus binomials in math
23:27:32 <FreeFull> I just mapped altgr as space because my spacebar is too noisy
23:27:58 <ion> I use altgr all the time.
23:28:41 <shachaf> ion: also you know how (>>=) :: m a -> Codensity m a
23:28:50 <shachaf> and (=>>) :: Density w a -> w a
23:29:02 <shachaf> and fmap :: f a -> Yoneda f a and fmap :: CoYoneda f a -> f a
23:29:18 <ion> I might if i knew what Codensity and Density are. And if i hadn’t already forgotten what Yoneda and CoYoneda are.
23:30:06 <ion> Actually, i do faintly remember that Yoneda was kind of partially applied fmap. Well, i wouldn’t have remembered whether that was Yoneda or CoYoneda.
23:30:37 <shachaf> newtype Codensity m a = Codensity { runCodensity :: forall b. (a -> m b) -> m b }
23:30:40 <shachaf> (>>=) :: forall m a. Monad m => m a -> forall b. (a -> m b) -> m b
23:30:45 <shachaf> it's p. straightforward imo
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23:32:29 <ion> ENLARGE YOUR WHITESPACE
23:33:44 <shachaf> ion: Yoneda is the same deal
23:34:37 <shachaf> newtype Yoneda f a = Yoneda { runYoneda :: forall b. (a -> b) -> f b }
23:34:37 <shachaf> fmap :: Functor f => f a -> forall b. (a -> b) -> f b
23:35:18 <elliott> shachaf: I think the real equivalent of Free-based Monad for Functor is
23:35:34 <elliott> uh, I was going to write something here but I forgot what.
23:35:43 <elliott> it involved a recursive fmap constructor
23:35:46 <ion> elliott: Whatever you were going to write, i disagree vehemently.
23:35:55 <Bike> i assume that was a drugz joke
23:36:17 <shachaf> Bike: elliott is a bit of a forgetful functor
23:36:36 <shachaf> Bike: ever since the free functor left adjoint to him
23:37:20 <shachaf> (the joke is: a free functor is left adjoint to a forgetful functor. also drugz)
23:39:47 <shachaf> mnoqy: you don't like my drugz joke ??
23:40:22 <mnoqy> it's a bit...."aghsaansdf"
23:40:50 <Bike> Fiora: http://24.media.tumblr.com/8557b8052dfb1690467ddf86bb51a4b4/tumblr_mpnxb1GuLe1rprj1yo1_1280.jpg echidna sperm. don't only pay attention to the "cool" monotremes man
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23:42:07 <shachaf> mnoqy: i bet maclane doesn't have drugz jokez
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23:45:11 <kmc> <mrdata> pyrolysis of bones releases phosphine
23:45:19 <kmc> truly ##electronics is a wonderful channel
23:45:59 <Bike> does that mean fire
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23:57:11 <Bike> this channel moves damned fast kmc
23:57:33 <Bike> talkin' mushrooms
23:57:35 <Bike> "kmconspiracy"
23:58:42 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/xfrUeQ4.png
23:58:45 <Sgeo> A little confusing
00:01:45 <Koen_> Sgeo: have you played that game ? ''other top games''? I hear it's good
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00:54:24 <Fiora> Bike: "In totally unrelated news, Quantum Computing Since Democritus made Scientific American’s list of best summer books! I can’t think of a more appropriate honor, since if there’s any phrase that captures what QCSD is all about, “sizzling summer beach read” would be it."
00:54:30 <Fiora> aaronson is really great XD
00:54:59 <Bike> cookin up search algorithms on the grill
00:56:29 <Fiora> I'm imagining a quantum computing romance now
00:56:35 <Fiora> like, romance novel
00:57:01 <Fiora> BQP wanted to union with BPP-path, but it was not to be
01:05:03 <Jafet> Disney cashes in with the film adaptation "Entangled"
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01:26:34 <coppro> hmm, I've come up with a conclusive proof why there will never be another stargate TV series
01:28:17 <coppro> the premiere of each series has dialed one extra chevron, but there are no more left
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01:42:22 <kmc> Bike: so I'm home now
01:42:29 <kmc> i believe you owe me a picture of elephants fisting each other
01:42:50 <Bike> hey, hey, i only said fisting, not mutual fisting
01:42:59 <kmc> ok fine jeez
01:42:59 <Bike> http://media.tumblr.com/ecf88e222a33b3c867f1eabaf09bd45b/tumblr_inline_mpog8gvrjo1r577c9.png here you go though
01:43:02 <kmc> way to get a guy's hopes up
01:43:17 <Bike> I guess you could also call it "trunking"
01:43:21 <Bike> if you hated yourself, i mean
01:43:50 <kmc> that picture is not really that sexy
01:47:46 <kmc> i'm just speaking for myself here
01:48:17 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> Bike: so I'm home now <kmc> i believe you owe me a picture of elephants fisting each other
01:48:21 <HackEgo> 1069) <kmc> Bike: so I'm home now <kmc> i believe you owe me a picture of elephants fisting each other
01:49:16 <HackEgo> 1068) <Bike> oh my, this is a photo of an elliott fisting [...] <Bike> i meant elephant <Bike> but you know what, ok. <kmc> Bike: ... <kmc> Bike: can you send me that picture when i'm not at work ok <kmc> plz and thx
01:51:46 <ion> For your enjoyment: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=elephant+poop
01:53:19 <Gracenotes> I wonder if there is feta cheese about
01:53:24 <shachaf> ion: write me a limerick plz thx
01:54:53 <ion> http://youtu.be/6h5ZLo-GO9E http://youtu.be/A2y_LEbdEVE http://youtu.be/VbPdrqdXx0g
01:54:54 <lambdabot> *** "bout" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
01:54:54 <lambdabot> n 1: (sports) a division during which one team is on the
01:54:54 <lambdabot> offensive [syn: {turn}, {bout}, {round}]
01:54:54 <lambdabot> 2: a period of illness; "a bout of fever"; "a bout of
01:55:11 <shachaf> i bet that continues with «feta cheese"; »
01:55:12 <lambdabot> 3: a contest or fight (especially between boxers or wrestlers)
01:55:12 <lambdabot> 4: an occasion for excessive eating or drinking; "they went on a
01:55:12 <lambdabot> bust that lasted three days" [syn: {bust}, {tear}, {binge},
01:55:32 <shachaf> they went on a bout of feta cheese that lasted three days
01:56:10 <Jafet> A Boba Feta cheese
01:56:10 <shachaf> there is a cheese which is kind of like feta but not quite feta
01:56:20 <shachaf> it's called "bulgarian cheese" in hebrew
01:56:29 <shachaf> it is popular and delicious to eat it with watermelons
01:57:36 <kmc> woah I just started cooking a chicken tortilla thing with feta cheese
01:58:47 <shachaf> hmm i wonder whether you can find proper gvina bulgarit in san francisco
01:59:14 <shachaf> i think it is made from sheep's milk usually??
02:03:24 <Gracenotes> I'm really struggling here to finish a limerick with shachaf as the primary rhyme.
02:03:48 <shachaf> oerjan: what was the right window
02:03:54 <Bike> can you split words
02:03:59 <Bike> catch aff-irmative or something
02:04:07 <kmc> shachaf: we can check out http://www.yelp.com/biz/samiramis-imports-san-francisco-2
02:04:18 <kmc> "They carry the Jericho garlic spread, which permits me to have a Zankou Chicken-like garlic experience." ++++++++
02:04:21 <kmc> I miss Zankou
02:04:26 <kmc> Fiora: have you been to Zankou Chicken
02:05:51 <kmc> they exist in southern california
02:05:52 <Gracenotes> I might have written myself into a corner
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02:06:42 <shachaf> kmc: hm http://www.samiramisimport.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=122&category_id=36&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53
02:06:50 <shachaf> http://www.samiramisimport.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=123&category_id=36&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53
02:07:03 <kmc> looks good
02:07:56 <shachaf> maybe we can get watermelon too!!
02:08:17 <kmc> can't find hours on their site, Yelp says they'll be open until 20:00 on Saturday though
02:08:25 <kmc> shachaf: you can get watermelon anywhere >_<
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02:08:34 <kmc> there were a bunch of smashed watermelons at Church & Duboce
02:08:39 <kmc> this seems to happen a lot here
02:08:46 <shachaf> but you can't get watermelon & bulgarian cheese anywhere
02:08:52 <kmc> people drop or throw a full bag of groceries from a third story window (??)
02:08:53 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
02:08:58 <shachaf> anyway i didn't mean at that place i meant in general
02:08:59 <kmc> is "watermelon & bulgarian cheese" a traditional dish
02:10:07 <shachaf> https://encrypted.google.com/images?q=אבטיח+וגבינה+בולגרית
02:10:25 <kmc> nutella and sausage??
02:10:50 <kmc> hm I guess the palestinean cafe in Cambridge does a fruit & cheese plate that's p. good
02:11:15 <kmc> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3398/3536010056_e9a8d6c67e.jpg awwwwww <3
02:11:30 <shachaf> and that one picture is... watermelon and halloumi??
02:11:39 <shachaf> imo "bizarre" but maybe it's good too
02:11:43 <elliott> was afraid that might be more elephant fisting
02:11:51 <kmc> never had halloumi
02:12:01 <shachaf> halloumi is a strange cheese
02:12:06 <shachaf> imo you should have some sometime
02:12:34 <shachaf> you have to grill it or something
02:12:56 <kmc> i'll fry it
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02:14:26 <kmc> zankou is the besssssst
02:14:56 <shachaf> hmm is halloumi not vegetarian :'(
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02:17:03 <ion> It’s cheese.
02:17:36 <shachaf> yes but is it "set with rennet"
02:18:35 <Jafet> Is the use of rennet really that much to stomach?
02:19:25 <kmc> these days some rennet is produced by transgenic bacteria
02:20:15 <kmc> bacteria *or* fungi I should say
02:20:36 <kmc> incl. black mold fungus
02:20:59 <kmc> shachaf: are you interested in cheese making?
02:21:10 <kmc> cathy makes cheese sometimes, mostly when we have some milk that has gone bad
02:21:17 <kmc> just acid-set cheese so far
02:21:26 <kmc> it comes out like paneer or cottage cheese, depending
02:21:33 <shachaf> hm i don't know much about cheese-making
02:21:57 <kmc> you can also get enzymes out of thistle or other plants that substitute for rennet
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02:22:37 <kmc> wonder how much it would cost to pay someone to drive 6 hours to los angeles and get zankou chicken for me and bring it back
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02:22:46 -!- Bike has left.
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02:23:12 <elliott> los angeles is six hours away from san francisco?????
02:23:16 <Gracenotes> how much would it cost for them to not eat it on the way, is the real question
02:23:37 <elliott> Fiora: gonna need another diagram here
02:23:42 <kmc> elliott: yes approx
02:23:56 <shachaf> elliott: it's only about 2ms away at the speed of light ht
02:23:57 <kmc> elliott: I realize that's like twice the entire length of your damp & dismal island
02:26:20 <kmc> shachaf: also I found http://www.buyisraelgoods.org/scripts/mrkt_Home.asp?market_id=13&category_id=7 but maybe it's too creepy
02:28:45 <kmc> <beaky> why does the world need microcontrollers
02:28:50 <kmc> great contribution to ##electronics imo
02:29:03 <shachaf> perhaps .bg bulgarian cheese > .il bulgarian cheese
02:29:08 <Bike> why microcontrollers and not macrocontrollers??
02:29:45 <kmc> shachaf: we just don't know
02:30:14 <kmc> someone once told me bulgarian women are the most attractive
02:30:17 <kmc> he was quite insistent on this point
02:30:28 <Bike> i'm not sure i've ever seen a bulgarian person
02:35:18 <Bike> elliott: quick guide: (1) san francisco is in north california (2) los angeles is in the other california (3) california is big
02:35:48 <elliott> (3) is quite difficult or me
02:36:23 <Bike> elliott: basically imagine like, at least a hundred welsh people in a pile? that's like almost as big as california
02:36:54 <kmc> come on, it's not even as far as London to Glasgow
02:37:11 <shachaf> so if it can target GCC, it could be possible to modify Glasgow to work with gcc-avr and use haskell for AVR micro controller
02:37:18 <shachaf> But then we would need a special Haskell dialect that would allow us to modify register directly and embeded Assembly inside it (in the impure main function, as IO type)
02:37:40 <elliott> kmc: london and glasgow are literally in different countries
02:37:47 <kmc> Hexham to Dover
02:37:54 <elliott> nobody wants to go to dover
02:37:59 <kmc> what about the cliffs
02:38:11 <kmc> elliott: would you vote yes on scottish independence
02:38:13 <shachaf> elliott: same kingdom though
02:38:44 <shachaf> why do you even live in a kingdom
02:38:47 <elliott> their politics are a bit less fucked
02:38:54 <elliott> probably i would then have to move to scotland though
02:39:03 <elliott> and then i would freeze to death
02:39:40 <Bike> alright are you all ready for some Bad Java Code
02:39:56 <Bike> my friend works for a school and his undergrads decided they needed to write a calendar
02:39:56 <kmc> that said, continue.
02:39:59 <Bike> http://pastebin.com/qzngL9iE
02:40:27 -!- Rig has joined.
02:40:29 <elliott> kmc: why do you ask anyway
02:40:36 <HackEgo> Rig: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:40:39 <kmc> i don't understand
02:40:48 <kmc> people need to learn the basic visual technique
02:40:54 <kmc> of seeing code that looks the same seven times on the screen
02:40:56 <Bike> of freezing to death?
02:41:05 <kmc> this should cause you to feel a sensation similar to spiders trying to crawl up your butthole
02:41:22 <kmc> I think CS education needs more Ludovico Technique
02:41:23 <elliott> kmc's interests: elephant fisting, spider butthole invasions
02:41:31 <kmc> elliott: don't forget drug
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02:42:22 <Rig> Could be worse.
02:42:34 <Bike> rig could have been a spider butthole fetishist.
02:42:38 <Rig> I'm the one refactoring the code Bike shared.
02:42:42 <kmc> it takes all kinds
02:42:47 <kmc> ah good luck w/ that
02:42:51 <HackEgo> RiG: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
02:43:06 <kmc> `? welcome.es
02:43:10 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
02:43:13 <kmc> `? bienvenue
02:43:19 <Bike> i'm ust in love with "this.add(new Day(OfTheWeek.Monday, 1, 0));"
02:43:20 <HackEgo> Bienvenue sur le centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d'informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l'autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
02:43:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tervetuloa: not found
02:43:26 <Gracenotes> Bike: I like their anonymous ArrayList subclass
02:43:30 <Bike> hey what did youc all me
02:43:36 <shachaf> @ask ion to fix `tervetuloa hth
02:43:45 <kmc> Bike: i think it's a fermented fish product?
02:44:00 <kmc> either that or it means "welcome" in finnish
02:44:12 <Bike> don't finnish people welcome with fermented fish products
02:44:17 <kmc> and "tervemenoa" means "good riddance"
02:44:21 <Gracenotes> anyway, so many lines of code, I'm impressed. The author must have at least twice as many lines of code as his coworker. What a chump, that guy.
02:44:41 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> Bike: i think it's a fermented fish product? <kmc> either that or it means "welcome" in finnish
02:44:44 <HackEgo> 1070) <kmc> Bike: i think it's a fermented fish product? <kmc> either that or it means "welcome" in finnish
02:44:46 <elliott> you're on a roll today kmc
02:44:53 <kmc> I think I may be trying too hard
02:45:35 <Gracenotes> the key to trying too hard is to try harder, but try less frequently.
02:47:24 <shachaf> what's wrong with that java code "looks good to me"
02:47:34 <HackEgo> smlist (410): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
02:47:49 <mnoqy> ah yes it's that time of tuesday/thursday evening
02:48:28 <shachaf> olist and smlist in the same day
02:48:38 <Gracenotes> what was the exploit that used a previously unknown MD5 weakness?
02:49:11 <shachaf> every md5 weakness was previously unknown
02:49:34 <shachaf> perhaps you are thinking of the ""flame"" thing
02:50:27 <Gracenotes> yes, the recent one; I was reminded of it (though not the name) reading about Stuxnet
02:50:34 <Fiora> elliott: america is *really really huge*
02:50:36 <Fiora> like unreasonable huge
02:50:42 <Bike> at least twice as big as wales
02:51:03 <elliott> Fiora: agreed re: unreasonable
02:51:18 <elliott> austerity measure to save america money: cut down on size??? you really don't need all that country
02:51:29 <Bike> well it's not like we use all of it
02:51:30 <elliott> it's scary. you're intimidating all the other countries
02:51:32 <shachaf> we p. much just need the coasts
02:51:34 <Gracenotes> alaska and hawaii were just flagrant wastes of money
02:51:36 <Bike> the density drops off pretty hilariously in the middle
02:51:37 <Rig> Really, Texas could be sold.
02:51:40 <shachaf> the least coast and the best code
02:51:44 <Fiora> basically the US is like any normal country except everything is 5 times farther apart
02:51:50 <shachaf> initial and terminal objects in the category of coasts
02:51:56 <Bike> russia doesn't count since they just have everything in the west
02:52:07 -!- qxr has joined.
02:52:09 <Bike> and in the east they still have reindeer herders, because are you going to bother someone who lives in fucking siberia
02:52:26 <shachaf> Gracenotes: you aren't really a coast :'(
02:52:31 <elliott> america's size stems from them stretching out a far smaller area of land to make the most of what they had
02:52:37 <elliott> during the war of independence in 1 BC
02:52:50 <HackEgo> qxr: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:53:07 <elliott> relcome is the best welcome, sorry
02:53:08 <Bike> `welcome elliott
02:53:10 <HackEgo> elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:53:15 <elliott> not sure we even need the others
02:53:16 <Bike> Rig: but who would buy texas.
02:53:19 <Rig> relcome does seem the best.
02:53:28 <HackEgo> RIG: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
02:53:34 <Rig> Nah, still not better.
02:53:37 <Gracenotes> I mean, Mexico has tons of empty space
02:53:40 <shachaf> Rig: You haven't seen half of the welcomes!
02:53:44 <Gracenotes> but everyone still insists on living in Mexico City
02:53:48 <shachaf> You have no place to say things like that.
02:54:07 <Rig> Bike tells me that HackEgo actually creates a VM for every command.
02:54:08 <Bike> The fullwidth welcome is still there, right?
02:54:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ Rig: not found
02:54:35 <HackEgo> ＲＩＧ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ
02:54:42 <elliott> not quite as heavy as a full vm but still "booting a kernel"
02:54:45 <Bike> hey, hey, why'd it cut off
02:54:50 <shachaf> Bike: irc length limits hth
02:55:03 <elliott> unfortunately there are no country length limits :(
02:55:11 <shachaf> elliott: hey not everybody in america is "fullwidth"
02:55:12 <Bike> imo, alias `america to `ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ
02:55:42 <Bike> Rig: it's also under version control! so it's like at least thirty times better than the code at your job.
02:55:54 <Fiora> shachaf: is that a fat joke?
02:56:02 <Rig> Bike: Nah, we're under version control.
02:56:19 <Rig> SVN is not really my idea of good version control though.
02:56:28 <Bike> see. HackEgo is on, like. git? probably.
02:56:54 <elliott> because Gregor is kind of a weirdo
02:56:57 <Bike> close enough imo
02:57:10 <Rig> I'd settle for hg or git. But my boss dislikes distributed version control for some reason.
02:58:01 <shachaf> Fiora: i thought it was a response to one
02:58:07 <Gracenotes> Rig: use hg or git with the final backend being some boring centralized thing, with say a code review system in between.
02:58:24 <Rig> Hahaha. Code review.
02:58:24 <Bike> no, elliott was just talking about america having "a lot of territory", if you know what i mean.
02:58:34 <Bike> what i mean is the same as what i literally said, btw
02:58:55 <Fiora> bike did you invite a rig in here
02:59:02 <elliott> big rigs over the road racing
02:59:05 <Bike> yes we're all in the same other channel dunkass
02:59:22 <Rig> Bike told me there was no optimism in this channel.
02:59:38 <Rig> I think he introduced it as being full of cool people that hate programming.
02:59:48 <Bike> well, unfortunately, kmc recently got a cool job
02:59:54 <Bike> so people are in a good mood about programming
02:59:56 <Bike> it's terrible.
03:00:03 <elliott> no I still hate programming
03:00:28 <elliott> actually I don't hate programming
03:00:29 <shachaf> i sometimes wish elliott didn't hate things so much :'(
03:00:40 <elliott> are you saying you hate my hatred of things
03:00:46 <Bike> he just wouldn't be the same elliott if he had a healthy, sustainable outlook on life
03:01:03 <shachaf> Bike: hatred is sustainable
03:01:13 <oerjan> > (text.flap) "uɐɾɹǝo"
03:01:28 <Gracenotes> general hatred from a person, or specific hatred of a person?
03:01:48 <Gracenotes> the latter is usually more sustainable than the former.
03:02:06 <Bike> look man, i'm not a "hatred expert". I have people for that. People and elephants.
03:02:17 <shachaf> Gracenotes: is that like initial and terminal objects
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03:02:47 <shachaf> well i mean there's always an identity morphism
03:02:53 <shachaf> so everyone hates themselves
03:02:56 <elliott> hey people remember when this channel made sense
03:03:07 <shachaf> it made sense before you joined
03:03:09 <Gracenotes> it's like a category but with no identities. the best kind.
03:03:09 <Bike> category theory "makes sense".
03:03:19 <shachaf> Gracenotes: that's called a semigroupoid
03:03:19 <elliott> Bike: does this honestly look like category theory to you
03:03:33 <Bike> no, it looks like shachaf.
03:03:37 <Bike> i assume shachaf is a category.
03:03:40 <shachaf> what does shachaf look like
03:04:04 * Fiora hugs Rig here too then
03:04:19 <Gracenotes> omg you can't just ask what shachaf looks like
03:04:28 <Gracenotes> you have to put him in diagrams and ask if they commute
03:04:50 <shachaf> kmc: should i have a hair cut y/n
03:04:55 <shachaf> my hair is getting annoying
03:05:22 <kmc> shachaf: i don't remember how much hair you have
03:05:28 <kmc> however if you don't like having that much, you should get it cut
03:05:33 <kmc> you will look good either way
03:05:46 <shachaf> well that goes without saying hth
03:06:03 <shachaf> on july 25 2011 i shaved all my hair
03:06:17 <elliott> Rig: hey you'll probably hear an equally terrible joke along these lines like at least once in the future here so I'm gonna get it out the way with:
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03:06:26 <shachaf> and then went for a few hours of walking in the sun and got a sunburn :'(
03:06:27 <elliott> Rig: the best thing about you is that you're never negative
03:06:38 <Bike> i... don't get it
03:06:39 <elliott> everyone who got that feel free to kill me
03:06:49 <Gracenotes> man that's also the best thing about functors
03:07:15 <Rig> Yeah, I don't get it.
03:07:25 <Bike> is "positive rig" a thing...
03:07:30 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rig_(mathematics)
03:07:39 <Bike> i already hate this.
03:07:54 <Bike> oh. right. ring -> rig.
03:07:57 <Bike> i hate mathematicians.
03:07:58 <shachaf> elliott: without the requirement that each element has an additive inverse
03:08:08 <shachaf> and every ring is a rig "etc "etc""
03:08:12 <elliott> in retrospect that was colossally terrible on so many levels
03:08:21 <Rig> Mathematicians and computer scientists should stop naming things.
03:08:32 <kmc> but we have so many things!
03:10:19 <Gracenotes> Rig had a lot of foresight to name themselves after a mathematical abstraction.
03:10:44 <Rig> I was prepared.
03:10:48 <shachaf> why is there no good one-word name for a commutative semiring
03:10:51 <elliott> well probably it wasn't foresight, I suspect Rig had insider knowledge about it
03:10:55 <elliott> you could say the whole thing was
03:11:05 <Bike> what the fuck was that, elliott.
03:11:08 <Bike> what the fuck was that.
03:11:10 <Gracenotes> shachaf: let's start with a commutative group
03:11:11 <Bike> i a disgusted.
03:11:18 <Bike> so disgusted i can't use words.
03:12:29 <Gracenotes> the pun hate is too strong in this area
03:12:47 <shachaf> these puns aren't pleasant or helpful to us please stop
03:13:32 <Fiora> but these puns are purrfect
03:13:58 -!- shachaf has left.
03:14:22 <Fiora> eesh, I really shouldn't catpun around him should I ...
03:14:54 <Gracenotes> when you're a pun-hater, everything around you looks like a nail... pun.
03:15:01 <Bike> yeah, what Gracenotes said.
03:16:27 <Bike> a pail? alt. a nun.
03:17:02 <kmc> is that an anagram
03:17:31 <Bike> ping faillls? i dunno
03:19:25 <mnoqy> shachaf being weird again eh
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03:33:15 <oerjan> elliott: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=area+of+california+%2F+area+of+united+kingdom hth
03:33:24 <elliott> oerjan: not clicking, too scary
03:35:05 <kmc> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+of+california+%2F+population+of+united+kingdom
03:35:32 <elliott> UK has one more elliott than california
03:36:16 <Bike> you were winning anyway
03:36:32 <Fiora> but the US has one more fiora >:3
03:36:48 <Bike> oh yeah well..... actually i guess bikes are common in both places
03:37:38 <Bike> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=number+of+bikes+in+california nooooo
03:37:50 <elliott> UK is geographically closer to oerjans!!!
03:38:05 <elliott> gotta use everything we got here
03:38:25 <Bike> Common campus transportation | Exercise room lineup | Exercises outdoors | Items in a rack | Some exercise equipment
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03:41:56 <shachaf> kmc: are you going to read JaffaCake's book when it comes out next month
03:42:16 <shachaf> _Parallel and Concurrent Programming in Haskell_
03:43:11 <qxr> Always the right answer.
03:43:34 <shachaf> anyway this book is looking p. great
03:46:21 <Bike> probably will never read it & feel miserable
03:47:10 <shachaf> copumpkin: should i get the paper version & read it
03:47:29 <copumpkin> I ordered a copy and will tell you three years from now when I get a chance to read it
03:47:43 <shachaf> hey did you read that one story thing
03:47:46 <oerjan> shachaf: ##nomic was the right window hth
03:48:01 <oerjan> also this scrollback is large
03:48:49 <oerjan> > (text.flap) "oǝɹɾɐ¿"
03:49:37 <shachaf> kmc: should i bring any paper books with me for you to read
03:50:43 <shachaf> Bike: oh should i read some of the other clavell books other than _Shōgun_
03:50:59 <shachaf> they have them for $not much at the used bookstore
03:51:51 <oerjan> <elliott> i bet oerjan got it <-- yep
03:52:02 <shachaf> "James Clavell's Shōgun is an interactive fiction computer game written by Dave Lebling and released by Infocom in 1989."
03:52:23 <Bike> uh ih aven't read clavell
03:53:45 <shachaf> copumpkin: well can you tell me about the uh printing quality or something
03:54:03 <Bike> who cares about physical books vs. pdfs they're both pretty good imo
03:54:20 <shachaf> copumpkin: is it a "proper book" or just a bunch of pages badly glued together or what
03:54:25 <shachaf> Bike: imo screens are bad hth
03:56:00 <oerjan> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+of+california+*+area+of+california+%2F+%28population+of+united+kingdom+*+area+of+united+kingdom%29 much more reasonable!
03:56:41 <shachaf> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+of+united+states+*+area+of+united+states+%2F+%28population+of+united+kingdom+*+area+of+united+kingdom%29
03:57:23 <Bike> what i'm getting out of this is the UK needs more Fioras if it wants to keep pace.
03:58:11 <Bike> mountains of plush
03:58:21 <Bike> you put them under boxes
03:58:22 <qxr> Immigration?
03:58:24 <Bike> like how you catch rabbits
03:59:09 <Fiora> according to daki they're made out of moe, I think?
03:59:14 <kmc> shachaf: bring me a smullyan book
03:59:20 <oerjan> shachaf: plz fix text.flap hth
03:59:30 <shachaf> oerjan: Jafet wrote it. Jafet can fix it
03:59:31 <Bike> shachaf: bring kmc the smullyan book with the kingdom of laughter
03:59:44 <shachaf> Bike: hmm i was going to bring a different one
03:59:53 <Bike> you could bring the different one instead
03:59:54 <shachaf> Bike: maybe i'll bring both
03:59:58 <Bike> there are options
04:01:48 <kmc> can't guarantee i'll finish reading them in a reasonable amount of time
04:01:51 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, mauke's original flap was good.
04:02:00 <Bike> what does flap do
04:02:01 <shachaf> kmc: what about a bounded amount of time
04:02:06 <lambdabot> mauke says: let flap=map(ap fromMaybe(`lookup`t).toLower).reverse where t=zip k v++zip v k;k="6abcdefghijkmnrtvwy[({?!'<_;\x203f\x2045\x2234";v="9\x250q\x254p\x1dd\x25f\x183\x265\x131\x27e\x29e\
04:02:06 <lambdabot> x26fu\x279\x287\x28c\x28d\x28e\x2d9])}\xbf\xa1,>\x203e\x61b\x2040\x2046\x2235"
04:02:11 <Bike> oh that's pretty good.
04:02:17 <shachaf> > let flap=map(ap fromMaybe(`lookup`t).toLower).reverse where t=zip k v++zip v k;k="6abcdefghijkmnrtvwy[({?!'<_;\x203f\x2045\x2234";v="9\x250q\x254p\x1dd\x25f\x183\x265\x131\x27e\x29e\x26fu\x279\x287\x28c\x28d\x28e\x2d9])}\xbf\xa1,>\x203e\x61b\x2040\x2046\x2235" in text $ (flap.flap) "oerjan"
04:02:23 <shachaf> > let flap=map(ap fromMaybe(`lookup`t).toLower).reverse where t=zip k v++zip v k;k="6abcdefghijkmnrtvwy[({?!'<_;\x203f\x2045\x2234";v="9\x250q\x254p\x1dd\x25f\x183\x265\x131\x27e\x29e\x26fu\x279\x287\x28c\x28d\x28e\x2d9])}\xbf\xa1,>\x203e\x61b\x2040\x2046\x2235" in text $ flap "oerjan"
04:02:41 <Bike> the upside down j is kind of bad
04:03:01 <shachaf> > let flap=map(ap fromMaybe(`lookup`t).toLower).reverse where t=zip k v++zip v k;k="6abcdefghijkmnrtvwy[({?!'<_;\x203f\x2045\x2234";v="9\x250q\x254p\x1dd\x25f\x183\x265\x131\x27e\x29e\x26fu\x279\x287\x28c\x28d\x28e\x2d9])}\xbf\xa1,>\x203e\x61b\x2040\x2046\x2235" in text $ flap "bicycle"
04:03:14 <Bike> that's more like it
04:03:27 <shachaf> > let flap=map(ap fromMaybe(`lookup`t).toLower).reverse where t=zip k v++zip v k;k="6abcdefghijkmnrtvwy[({?!'<_;\x203f\x2045\x2234";v="9\x250q\x254p\x1dd\x25f\x183\x265\x131\x27e\x29e\x26fu\x279\x287\x28c\x28d\x28e\x2d9])}\xbf\xa1,>\x203e\x61b\x2040\x2046\x2235" in text $ flap "telemarketer"
04:03:41 <Bike> qxr: see? programming
04:03:57 <qxr> I never indicated anything to the contrary!
04:03:58 <shachaf> More like running programs.
04:04:03 <shachaf> mauke is the programmer here.
04:04:07 <elliott> is this another Bike program
04:04:12 <elliott> is this another Bike person
04:04:22 <Bike> there is only one bike, we've been over this
04:04:31 <shachaf> well Fiora is a Bike person
04:04:46 <Bike> a bike/human hybrid
04:04:48 <shachaf> or maybe Bike is an Sgeo_ person
04:04:51 <elliott> by Bike person I mean someone Bike brought. like Rig.
04:05:03 <qxr> No, I'm just here.
04:05:08 <Bike> rig is not a number, he is a free man
04:05:12 <Bike> we could all aspire to be here, imo
04:05:13 <Rig> Not really.
04:07:42 <qxr> I don't even own a bike.
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04:24:14 <shachaf> Bike: a hyphen in a binomial just means that the second term is negative hth
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04:38:09 <shachaf> copumpkin: Hmm, I think they keep updating the book or something.
04:39:03 <shachaf> copumpkin: I mean the printed version.
04:39:21 <copumpkin> sure, no point in printing older versions :)
04:41:01 <copumpkin> but I'm sure any state of the book is still valuable
04:41:12 <copumpkin> even though it'll probably be out of date within a few days :P
04:41:40 <shachaf> perhaps less point if you're not going to read it
04:41:49 <Bike> i think y'all are weird
04:41:56 <copumpkin> you never know when you might ned it
04:42:09 <Bike> better just destroy ozone to be safe
04:42:18 <Bike> it could grow fangs later
04:42:35 <shachaf> copumpkin: don't you have enough giant suvs
04:43:05 <shachaf> well once you accept that negative giant suvs exist
04:43:17 <shachaf> presumably they pay you money to take them
04:43:26 <shachaf> so why wouldn't you get a lot
04:45:02 <Bike> well, it means you lose antigold, which makes it harder to fly
04:45:55 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_cuisine
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05:01:10 <Bike> https://twitter.com/nedroid/status/354821827924733952
05:02:17 <shachaf> hmm you should follow me on twitter
05:02:41 <shachaf> all my tweets seem to be good so far
05:02:53 <Bike> how good we talkin
05:03:51 <shachaf> ok something is broken here
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05:04:47 <Bike> i'm not a "twitter expert".
05:05:04 <shachaf> ok this is making no sense
05:05:25 <shachaf> Bike: the point is, you should follow me so i can spam you with special promotions
05:05:43 <shachaf> sales and events that may be of interest to you
05:06:02 <Bike> @tell Taneb a Jake cosplayer trying to to eroticly lick a gun
05:06:39 <oerjan> Bike: why are you trying to destroy Taneb's mind tnh
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05:07:16 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
05:08:09 <Bike> oerjan's gone mad with power
05:08:14 <shachaf> copumpkin: are you a "hug person"
05:09:55 <copumpkin> I don't do it spontaneously much but I don't mind it at all
05:14:12 <oerjan> Bike: i'm sorry but swatting FireFly is an ancient #esoteric tradition.
05:14:58 <shachaf> oerjan is an ancient #esoteric tradition
05:15:15 <shachaf> FireFly, on the other hand, has a lifespan of ~2 months
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05:22:12 <HackEgo> 151) <fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task.
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05:34:19 <kmc> <SuperBrainAK> oh boy i thnk i better put on some eye protection cuz half of a transistor shot off and hit my window
05:34:33 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal Oh, it's very home-made, and still a bit work-in-progress. E.g. the pitch control (for taking multi-row shots) works by loosening/tightening the top screw with a hex key (from some IKEA furniture, I think) and a small wrench; I was going to drill some more holes so that I could lock it to pre-set positions with a pin.
05:34:38 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal Also the mine lake stage photo on the Flickr page (p1180390-437) has some visible seams at the walkway leading to the stage; the panohead worked just fine, but the floating stage itself kept floating around, not much it can do about that.
05:35:45 <Bike> kmc: wow i have that same problem
05:43:42 <fizzie> Hi, oerjan. Ho, er, Jan.
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06:44:50 <Taneb> I am still internally debating whether to email Ian Stewart about further reading or not
06:45:09 <Bike> emailing smart people is great
06:46:23 <Taneb> I am not very good at it!
06:47:25 <Bike> you'll probably just get a form response gees
06:47:50 <Taneb> Maybe I could ask Phantom_Hoover to track him down
06:49:19 <Taneb> Taneb->elliott ~ Phantom_Hoover -> Ian Stewart
06:51:07 <Taneb> I wonder if he plays Dwarf Fortress
06:57:05 <kmc> who's Ian Stewart
07:00:35 <Taneb> A mathematician and pop science author
07:01:25 <kmc> 17 Equations Guiltied to a Zegnatronic Rocket Society
07:01:45 <Bike> his book on astrobiology was p. great
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07:07:07 <Taneb> kmc, define:zegnatronic
07:07:51 <Bike> @wn zegnatronic
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07:09:15 <kmc> word invented by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Chu
07:11:04 <Bike> so i found a pretty good "stupid future" thing
07:11:12 <oerjan> not to be confused with Frank Cho
07:11:12 <Bike> remember back when bin laden was assassinated and that one guy tweeted it?
07:11:21 <shachaf> this writing style reminds me of zzo38 a bit but not a lot: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=CAOsGNSQ4dEn%2B_k4iSwiPDgjYzzpOgVogYxmH99nugjX5OvkzPg%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=yaml-core
07:11:45 <shachaf> actually it's not very zzo38y
07:12:07 <kmc> shachaf is training to be a forensic expert in distinguishing real zzo38 writings from forgeries
07:14:18 <Bike> "Helicopter hovering above Abbottabad at 1 am. (is rare event)" "Go away helicopter before I get my giant swatter"
07:14:36 <Bike> (referring to the SEAL copters, not that he knew that)
07:14:47 <kmc> i thought they were... stealth
07:14:58 <Bike> four of them were but they brought some bigger ones too
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07:15:06 <elliott> doesn't that kind of defeat the point
07:15:09 <kmc> cause that's how stealth works
07:15:13 <Bike> they had the stealth ones land first
07:15:14 <Taneb> Remember when C. Julius Caesar was assassinated and some guy tweeted about it
07:15:28 <Bike> ANYWAY since tweets are precisely timed, pakistan's investigatory commission quotes his tweets in their report
07:15:31 <Bike> and calls him the most reliable witness
07:15:56 <Bike> more reliable than one of the bodyguards' wives, or a neighbor who the SEALs tied up
07:16:22 <kmc> has anyone made a cryptocurrency which uses twitter as a timestamping service
07:16:28 <elliott> well, you can't get much more reliable than having a twitter.
07:16:42 <Bike> the other witnesses are seriously bad, it's kind of great
07:17:00 <shachaf> hey you should follow me on twitter
07:17:00 <Bike> some random soldier who happened to be nearby, obviously making shit up to justify not going to look
07:17:17 <Bike> shachaf: imo tweet about illegal military operations first.
07:18:02 <Bike> the thing i really don't get about the helicopters is that one of them crashed
07:18:07 <Bike> that seems like, kind of a pretty bad fuckup
07:18:19 <Bike> when you're a hundred miles into semi-enemy territory?
07:19:19 <Bike> "The Commission noticed that he produced no evidence of his statements and accordingly no weight could be given to his assertions" sample quote re other witnesses
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07:29:51 <Bike> kmc, elliott: yeah, it was black hawks and then chinooks.
07:30:12 <elliott> how stealthy are stealth helicopters really
07:30:20 <elliott> like it seems pretty hard to hide a helicopter
07:30:37 <Bike> they flew really low to the ground and knew where the radar stations were
07:31:02 <Bike> but i mean, yeah, seems like kind of a fuckup n the part of the pakistani military.
07:31:04 <Taneb> Why not use a jeep or so
07:32:26 <Bike> well have you seen pakistan
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07:33:46 <Taneb> Used to live there
07:34:17 <Bike> in the north or near islamabad?
07:35:02 <Bike> well, really north, i guess :V
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07:37:11 <Taneb> Without typos I would have said, "My mum used to live there"
07:37:25 <Bike> oh, i thought that was "My mum & I"
07:37:53 <Taneb> Nah, my phone keyboard is annoying
07:38:44 <Taneb> It was where my mum learnt to speak Italian
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07:46:18 <oerjan> learning to speak italian in pakistan, aha
07:46:35 <oerjan> Taneb: your family has a strange relationship to countries hth
07:51:15 <oerjan> were you an embassy kid?
07:52:33 <oerjan> (i assume you no longer are because, hexham)
07:52:52 <Bike> joke about hexham not being part of england
07:54:34 <oerjan> (well also you are no longer a kid, come to think of it. damn you people grow fast.)
07:54:58 <elliott> wow oerjan doesn't know about the hexham embassies
07:55:36 <oerjan> i suppose it would be a fine place for unexpected embassies, men of black style
07:56:37 <oerjan> wait this is why elliott and Taneb can never meet: one of them is an alien. now we just have to find out which one.
07:57:22 <oerjan> (also whichever it is, i'd like a lift off planet, thank you)
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08:01:25 <shachaf> Taneb: are you the one in http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=392
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08:03:18 <Taneb> I was not an embassy kid. My gramdfather worked for some NGO making a dam in Pakistan when my mum was a child.
08:05:05 <Taneb> The project was managed by an Italian company
08:07:00 <Taneb> My dad was an australian I T contractor who moved to the UK looking for work where he met my mum
08:07:55 <Taneb> His parents had emigrated to Australia from the Netherlands in the fifties for reasons I forget
08:09:03 <Taneb> My mum's mum was born in California because her dad had a job managing a paint factory there.
08:09:27 <Taneb> None of them claimed US citizenship.
08:10:12 <Taneb> That is a lot of the weird stuff in my family relating to countries
08:10:47 <Taneb> I have skipped the bit about Ghana because
08:10:56 <Taneb> I do not know enough
08:11:14 <oerjan> ...you were doing so well until that last bit :P
08:12:43 <Taneb> It was similar to Pakistan except my mum hadn't been born yet and I think it was with the military
08:14:12 <Taneb> There are rumours of Spanish ancestors on my mum's side and Sri Lankan on my dad's side
08:14:45 <shachaf> oerjan: sounds to me like Taneb is the alien
08:15:10 <oerjan> shachaf: yeah that's quite implausibly complicated for an earthling
08:16:30 <Taneb> My gran has lived on every continent bar south america and antarctica
08:17:17 <shachaf> That's a lot of continent bars.
08:22:47 <Taneb> I am proud to be the creator of the esolang with the longest name
08:23:43 <Gracenotes> longer than the maximum length of a wiki title?
08:24:10 <Taneb> No b because that would be stupid
08:24:39 <shachaf> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download?
08:24:53 <Gracenotes> I will not be impressed unless it is longer than the maximum length of a wiki page
08:25:15 <Gracenotes> Nay, longer than the number of atoms in the known universe
08:25:34 <Taneb> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
08:25:38 <Gracenotes> oh but yeah a mouthful to pronounce would also be p. good.
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08:25:55 <shachaf> Is that really the esolang with the longest name?
08:26:04 * shachaf finds that difficult to believe.
08:26:12 <Taneb> Last time I checked
08:26:46 <oerjan> Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
08:26:57 <oerjan> slightly shorter than that
08:27:15 <Taneb> It is longer than Compiler Language With No Pronouncable Acronym
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08:30:47 <oerjan> of course the welsh just laugh at the idea that clwnpa is unpronouncable.
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08:52:45 <coppro> Jafet: I'm stealing a patch of yours for NetHack 4. How would you like to be credited?
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09:27:11 <Jafet> Via money transfer thanks
09:30:38 <Jafet> "The pirate stole a patch"
09:32:08 <Jafet> "After applying the patch, he placed a hook in a patchy tomcat"
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09:43:53 <Jafet> I guess it's the unidentification patch. Wow, there are more strstrs in here than I remember.
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10:05:58 <coppro> Jafet: invoking the book
10:06:11 <coppro> required for permablind
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10:17:21 <johnny57> Damn there are real alien nazis http://www.alienandufopictures.com/ufo_pictures.html
10:18:13 <HackEgo> johnny57: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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10:29:59 <Jafet> coppro: well, you might want to change one of the lines in oracles.txt when you apply the patch. For, you know, the people who still visit the Oracle and stuff.
10:31:04 <Jafet> "If thou maintainest the utmost calm, thy safety will be aided greatly, but beware lest thy clumsy feet scuff the inscription, cancelling its potence."
10:33:31 <Jafet> I wisheth that the Oracle spake with less platitudinal bullshit
10:34:31 <lambdabot> ddarius says: "use the right platitude for the job"
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12:00:54 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.develop-online.net/news/44746/Valves-perfect-hiring-hierarchy-has-hidden-management-clique-like-High-School
12:30:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, all the Valve handbook stuff etc. always annoyed me; they're far too proud of themselves for 'eliminating' the usual problems with institutional hierarchies.
12:31:23 * Vorpal looks up Valve handbook
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13:10:02 <fizzie> For a moment there I was thinking about regular, you know, valves.
13:10:15 <fizzie> There are probably books about valves.
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13:48:21 <Taneb> Went to see Osbourne House today
13:52:15 <Gregor> Jul 09 22:56:44 <elliott> hackego uses hg
13:52:15 <Gregor> Jul 09 22:56:49 <elliott> because Gregor is kind of a weirdo
13:52:22 <Gregor> I feel like EVENTUALLY people will realize that git is horrible.
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13:53:05 <boily> git is good. git is your friend. have you heard of our Lord Git?
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14:20:26 <Gregor> I used e4ward to make myself a totally spam free universe and now I want to sign up for random crap online just so I can shoot down some spam :(
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15:34:50 <Taneb> I have got to do stop napping when I am bored
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15:45:56 <quintopia> napping is great. you should try not to be bored, but you should still nap sometimes :D
15:47:05 <Fiora> napping is wonderful
15:47:20 <boily> napping is great and good for your brains. unbore yourself with physical exercise, enjoy the weather, the cute Finland TREES and DOGS.
15:59:02 <kmc> Gregor: will people eventually realize that UNIX is horrible? or democracy?
16:08:13 * kmc is not convinced.
16:23:16 <fizzie> But you do have Finland trees, then?
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18:23:13 <Vorpal> Heh, I clicked on a link and all pages of that website crashed in chrome. That is across all the tabs that were open on that page.
18:28:50 <boily> isn't chrome supposed to have completely isolated tabs, where one crash can't propagate as a tribble infestation among everything?
18:29:06 <kmc> there are several tabs per process
18:32:42 <boily> there are several chromes, with several process, with several tabs, with several goats, then it's turtles all the way to the kernel.
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19:00:44 <fizzie> For some reason, OpenStreetMap tabs in Chromium have a habit of crashing if left unattended.
19:00:49 <fizzie> Don't know what's up with that.
19:01:49 <boily> hm. lambdabot is silent again. what about fungot?
19:02:12 <boily> aaaaaah! I need my fungot fix!
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19:05:35 <ion> How To Crack Open a Coconut http://youtu.be/M0S8RlFuaVo
19:05:52 * boily prods fizzie with a rubber cuttlefish "ME WANT FUNGOT!"
19:06:12 <ion> `tervetuloa hth
19:06:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tervetuloa: not found
19:06:24 <ion> shachaf: Seems to work fine.
19:09:27 <shachaf> ion: where are my services
19:10:02 <ion> I swallowed them, sorry.
19:14:14 <elliott> ion: did you know your irc client prefixes ops with a @
19:15:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm stitching those Otaniemi pictures, and there's one (almost-)full-globe where the zenith images are of completely clear blue sky. Surprisingly, there are some problems defining control points for the blue rectangles.
19:15:15 <ion> elliott: That was a great revelation.
19:16:10 <fizzie> "channel 2: open failed: administratively prohibited: open failed" huh
19:16:22 <fizzie> (SSH port forward message.)
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19:17:38 <FireFly> An alternative way to crack open a coconut: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkCZRnB3VFg
19:17:55 <ion> I think it should have given more information. Something like “channel 2: open failed: administratively prohibited: open failed: administratively prohibited: open failed”
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19:19:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, also you can easily turn off port forwarding in /etc/ssh/sshd_config
19:19:11 <Vorpal> So I guess that is what happened
19:19:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, pretty pointless since you could write your own daemon on the other end to do port forwarding for you
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19:21:20 <fungot> boily: and we all will be well invested. get a backtrace, at least in the chicken hash table implementation
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20:13:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Flickr'd those things: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fizzief/sets/72157634561814470/ (As for the almost-globe, just decided to drop the sky images for now; they're not all that terribly interesting, in the end.)
20:17:00 <boily> fizzie: is that that very large scale model of the solar system?
20:17:18 <fizzie> boily: No, it's a set of random panoramic pictures. Unless I linked to the wrong set.
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20:17:19 <fizzie> (There's a set of the solar system model, too.)
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20:19:17 <fizzie> Something I've wondered, re that model; is the Neptune model -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/fizzief/9033742967/ -- trying to show some kind of surface features, or is it just flaky paint?
20:19:33 <boily> I surreptitiously clicked on your usernamef to see what other pictures you had.
20:20:48 <fizzie> I haven't used the Flickr account much, since I have a local Gallery2 installation for sharing vacation pics with relatives with.
20:23:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, that model, is that in Finland?
20:24:18 <Vorpal> I know there is one in Sweden that covers most of Sweden, with the Globen Statium in Stockholm being the sun.
20:24:50 <fizzie> It's in Finland, and it's smaller than that.
20:25:09 <fizzie> 1:10^9 in scale, so the Sun is about a metre and a half, or something like that.
20:25:36 <fizzie> And all the planets are in the Helsinki/Espoo area, it's a nice (20-or-so km) bike ride to go through them all.
20:25:38 <Vorpal> where is the sun? can't find the image
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20:26:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, or is that the thing on the pole?
20:26:11 <fizzie> It's the silly sphere -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/fizzief/9033733679/
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20:26:25 <fizzie> The idea is that you should be able to see it from all of the planets.
20:26:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice panoramas anyway
20:26:35 <fizzie> (It doesn't entirely work, due to trees and so on.)
20:26:48 <Vorpal> didn't you say they were in a 20 km area or so?
20:27:01 <fizzie> And you need binoculars for the planets further away, yes.
20:27:12 <fizzie> Well, a 20 km round trip. I don't know what the furthest distance is.
20:27:22 <Vorpal> ah, so not in a line then
20:27:39 <Vorpal> well I guess they can't be in line due to some of the orbital resonances
20:28:28 <fizzie> The alignment of the planets might not correspond to any particular date, it's possible they've just put it where they found good locations.
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20:28:44 <fizzie> Pluto's (this predates the demotion) apparently about 6.1 km away from the Sun.
20:30:15 <fizzie> http://goo.gl/maps/eYwGR here's the GPS log for the trip those photos were taken at.
20:33:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is annoying that some apps seem to not be aware of dual monitors and open in the middle, and some open properly on one or the other monitor
20:33:49 <Vorpal> any idea what could cause that
20:34:51 <fizzie> Decades of history, I suppose. (Or in more detail, maybe non-Xinerama-aware code that manually queries screen extents and sets window position, instead of letting the window manager position it?)
20:36:08 <fizzie> I don't recall any examples offhand that'd open in the middle. (Though this is a tiling wm, so apps that don't get floated due to fixed-size windows or whatnot would be tiled anyway.)
20:36:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, hugin's splash screen in this case
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20:37:38 <fizzie> Curious; it opens in the center of the currently focused monitor, for me. (X is such a mess, though.)
20:38:47 <Vorpal> Have you bought the current humble bundle? Ebook one?
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20:39:31 <Vorpal> they just added some new stuff
20:39:39 <fizzie> No, but I bought the previous one (Android #6). Though with very little money, since it wasn't all that interesting.
20:40:07 <Vorpal> I got the current one just now, due to the new stuff they added
20:40:12 <Vorpal> was planning to skip it otherwise
20:40:21 <fizzie> Then I kept feeling guilty about giving them so little amount of money, even though the alternative would've been to give them nothing.
20:42:45 <fizzie> Speaking of Hugin, I can't figure out what the user-local directory for Python plugins is. http://hugin.sourceforge.net/releases/2011.2.0/en.shtml says "Moreover, plugins can be written, modified, customized in the user's own directory" but I haven't found any page that'd say what that directory is. (Or bothered to source-dive yet.)
20:43:25 <fizzie> (I wrote a small script to set the initial rough positions to what they tend to be after taking shots with the panohead.)
20:45:47 <Vorpal> what use are those scripts?
20:46:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, tried the new 2013.0.0 beta yet? They "streamlined" the UI, making it god-awful for the stuff I typically do. (Custom optimization configurations)
20:47:02 <fizzie> I've only read about it on the wiki so far.
20:47:06 <Vorpal> I went back to the 2012.0.0 version instead
20:47:45 <fizzie> From what I read, the "Expert" interface sounded reasonably similar to the old Hugin, but no, haven't tried it yet.
20:48:11 <boily> Vorpal: also my up arrow.
20:48:13 <fizzie> Well, "Advanced" or "Expert", I'm not quite sure what their difference is.
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20:48:30 <Vorpal> boily, I'm not familiar with that terminology?
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20:48:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, the expert interface was the one I was describing. The simple one is utterly useless
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20:56:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: Another slightly photography-related topic: turns out the N900 is reasonably usable for taking time-lapse shots (my regular camera doesn't have that functionality, and isn't computer-controllable; the old 2-mpix Canon that was I gave away); with a suitable gstreamer pipeline it can take, encode and wifi-send full-frame (2576x1936) jpegs at a bit over 1 fps, or 1920x1440-crop-to-1080p ...
20:56:42 <fizzie> ... images (for videoing) at about 2.2 fps. (Could perhaps go faster over usb-net as opposed to poor-signal-strength wifi.)
20:59:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess I could use my own phone for that, what with the somewhat better camera than that
21:00:15 <Vorpal> Hm are there any color eink displays out yet?
21:00:21 <Vorpal> I know they are in the works as it were
21:00:53 <Vorpal> If so, how good are they?
21:00:58 <boily> Vorpal: the up arrow on my keyboard, it searchs through previous replies.
21:00:58 <fizzie> I think there's been some commercial products already, but nothing mainstream.
21:01:07 <boily> but time to go eat. I'm autodigesting myself.
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21:01:46 <fizzie> http://www.jetbook.net/ <- like that
21:01:59 <fizzie> Says it's "first ever", but you never know.
21:02:58 <fizzie> "Sadly, my Jetbook Color 2 arrived yesterday and the new screen for the most part is not visibly different from the screen on the original Jetbook Color.
21:03:01 <fizzie> Sure, the blacks are darker, and the colors are a little brighter, but unfortunately E-ink’s second-gen color E-ink screen has the same gray base color as the previous screen. It is a gray that is so dark that the original Kindle actually has a whiter screen."
21:03:42 <Vorpal> So time to wait a year or so before getting an e-reader
21:06:21 <fizzie> I guess it works by having a static RGBW kind-of-like-Bayer-pattern filter on top of the black-and-white screen, so the subpixels of a full-white pixel are still (the brightest possible) white, red, green and blue, so the overall effect is gray.
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21:11:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, for some reason I get the unlock dialog on the non-primary monitor hm
21:12:13 <fizzie> I get mine on the screen the cursor was on when I locked it.
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21:17:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I will have to investigate that that wasn't the case
21:31:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, you are right, that was what happened
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23:31:27 <elliott> does anyone know what the new thinkpad keyboards are like
23:32:24 <Lumpio-> Probably still got Fn at bottom left
23:34:40 <kmc> i have an X1 Carbon with the new-style keyboard and it's fine
23:34:45 <kmc> feels at least as good as the old style
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23:35:20 <kmc> they were always tweaking the mechanism on the old style keyboards, anyway
23:35:35 <kmc> so this isn't some unprecedented shift in terms of mechanism, just appearance
23:36:12 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, thank god for that!
23:36:23 <kmc> it's missing SysRq and a few other keys, but there are secret Fn combos for them
23:36:31 <Lumpio-> I think they include a BIOS option these days to put Ctrl there
23:36:35 <Vorpal> kmc, I haven't heard of this new keyboard, what is the difference?
23:36:36 <kmc> although I didn't get magic SysRq to work
23:36:41 <kmc> Lumpio-: oh I heard about that
23:36:50 <kmc> the true location of Ctrl is to the left of 'a' ;P
23:37:01 <elliott> capslock ctrl is uncomfortable :(
23:37:06 <kmc> elliott: no
23:37:08 <kmc> elliott: why
23:37:15 <kmc> Vorpal: http://www.lenovo.com/shop/WW/products/splitter/notebooks/ThinkPad/X-Series/gallery/ThinkPad-X1-Carbon-Laptop-PC-Overhead-Keyboard-View-4L-940x475.jpg
23:37:15 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on your hands I bet
23:37:24 <kmc> they dropped a row of keys and added space between the keys
23:37:33 <kmc> and all the thinkpad diehards were like NOOOOO YOU MONSTERS
23:37:33 <elliott> kmc: my little finger doesn't like holding down the key in that position
23:37:34 <Vorpal> kmc, blasphemy! There is space between the keys
23:37:36 <kmc> but really, it feels fine
23:37:40 <Vorpal> messes up the distances
23:37:46 <kmc> don't agree
23:37:55 <elliott> ok to clarify when I asked my question I already knew Vorpal would hate it
23:37:58 <Vorpal> And I need to switch between normal PC keyboards, old laptop keyboards and thinkpads
23:38:10 <Vorpal> I have a really issue if the spacing change
23:38:11 <kmc> i do that too
23:38:15 <kmc> you can feel the edges between keys
23:38:20 <Vorpal> Really run into issues with spaced keyboards
23:38:22 <kmc> however I will accept that you and I are different human beings
23:38:41 * Fiora tries it, it feels awkward but maybe that's just habit?
23:38:41 <Vorpal> kmc, that is not the issue, I can't handle *scale* changes to keyboards very well.
23:38:44 <elliott> kmc: xah lee sez http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/swap_CapsLock_Ctrl.html but of course that is subject to xah lee being crazy
23:39:02 <elliott> though his reasons make sense to me
23:39:10 <Vorpal> I can get used to any, but since I switch so much I can't really get used to any that is far from the averagte
23:39:23 <elliott> what I might do is swap ctrl and alt
23:39:31 <elliott> IIRC they used to be in opposite positions on very old IBM keyboards
23:39:44 <elliott> either that or Alt was the standard keyboard shortcut modifier rather than Ctrl, so it was effectively swapped
23:39:52 <Vorpal> kmc, they moved pgup/pgdown too?
23:39:53 <elliott> and alt seems to be in a nicer position to hit regularly
23:40:06 <kmc> Vorpal: yeah, and got rid of the page forward / page back browser keys
23:40:11 <elliott> I guess macs effectively do that because cmd is where alt is on PC keyboards
23:40:42 <Vorpal> kmc, hm, this is the thinkpad layout I'm used to: https://www.dropbox.com/s/24aswje7idgwoo3/20120729_111221.jpg
23:41:26 <Vorpal> kmc, I used the forward/back keys for switching between terminal tabs in the terminal emulator
23:41:31 <elliott> kmc: that pgup/pgdown positioning looks a bit awkward
23:41:42 <elliott> but not like it really matters
23:42:03 <Fiora> my current keyboard has pgup and pgdn as FN-home and FN-end
23:42:05 <Fiora> which is a little od
23:42:09 <elliott> I used a keyboard with pgup/pgdown replacing some of the duplicate modifier keys on the right for a while, that was pretty nice actually
23:42:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I like that the esc key is no longer above F1, that used to trip me up going between my laptop and desktops
23:42:36 <Vorpal> That is one actual improvement
23:43:06 <kmc> i use Ctrl-[ for esc usually
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23:43:16 <Vorpal> kmc, does that work across the board?
23:43:21 <Vorpal> anyway where is your [?
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23:43:31 <Vorpal> for me that would be ctrl-altgr-8
23:43:32 <kmc> it's the key labeled _- on qwerty
23:43:35 <elliott> anyway I will look into thinkpads I guess
23:43:40 <Fiora> http://i.imgur.com/zna27l.jpg this one is mine
23:43:41 <kmc> and it works in standard terminals
23:43:50 <Vorpal> kmc, next to right shift?
23:43:59 <kmc> no two left of backspace
23:44:02 <Vorpal> elliott, getting a new computer?
23:44:10 <kmc> it works because the ESC character *is* Ctrl-[ in ASCII
23:44:13 <Vorpal> kmc, okay, not where it is on Swedish qwerty then!
23:44:32 <elliott> same way I've been "getting a new computer" for years but this time my current setup is annoying enough that I might actually do it
23:44:38 <Fiora> elliott: mine's purple though
23:44:39 <kmc> Ctrl = - 0x40
23:44:43 <Fiora> it lets you customize the colors
23:44:48 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, I got a new monitor recently
23:44:50 <elliott> Fiora: how utterly shocking
23:44:53 <Vorpal> elliott, so I have a dual monitor setup now
23:45:23 <elliott> laptops with number pads make me sad though :(
23:45:26 <Fiora> http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk102/hihihehe_ace/20120621_175804.jpg like that
23:45:30 <Fiora> there's a purple one
23:45:34 <elliott> means your hand is always going to be to the left
23:45:37 <Vorpal> elliott, a 24" 16:10 IPS. Dell UltraSharp 2412M. It actually is not too expensive for being an IPS. Good price/performance
23:45:58 <Fiora> yeah, I'm not sure it's necessary really... I do like that the keyboard is smaller (width-wise) though because of the pad though
23:47:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I have a UltraSharp 2410 at work, that is more than twice as expensive, for a 8 bits + 2 bits of AFRC and wide gamut, instead of 6 bits + 2 bits of AFRC and sRGB.
23:47:19 <elliott> why is there an extra one next to the space bar
23:48:15 <Vorpal> elliott, so you are getting a laptop?
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23:48:51 <Vorpal> elliott, Are you planning on coding much on it? Or what will the main purpose be?
23:49:10 <elliott> well as much as I code currently :P
23:49:14 <Vorpal> I found that I work more efficiently with really big screen estate, such as dual 24"
23:49:24 <Vorpal> Not sure if that is true for everyone, or if it is just me
23:49:41 <Vorpal> Dual screens is even nicer, makes having two maximised windows really nice
23:49:45 <elliott> I am ok with small screens
23:49:58 <elliott> I don't do much fancy in terms of coding environment anyway
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23:50:24 <Vorpal> I have started feeling cramped with just a single monitor. You get used to the dual screens really quickly.
23:50:28 <elliott> though high-PPI would be nice, the software support in linux seems to make that a waste of time for now
23:50:33 <Vorpal> I had tripple screens for a bit. That was *really* nice.
23:51:35 <Vorpal> (2x 24" 16:10 + 16:9 powerhouse laptop in dock at work. Really nice.)
23:52:45 <Vorpal> elliott, high ppi is nice, but I don't recall linux having problems with that hm?
23:53:04 <Vorpal> I know windows can't handle mixed low and high ppi screens well
23:53:14 <Vorpal> I assume linux could in theory?
23:53:35 <elliott> well it's about application support
23:53:50 <elliott> and the size of existing graphics etc.
23:54:08 <Vorpal> doesn't mostly everything use pango to render text these days anyway?
23:54:18 <elliott> like OS X's handling of the retina stuff is really good and just scaling up the X11 PPI setting isn't going to be remotely as effective for now
23:54:19 <Vorpal> and there tends to be SVG icons
23:54:19 <Koen_> GUYS THE VOICES ARE ON TO US THEY KNOW WE CAN HEAR THEM
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23:55:50 <Vorpal> Btw, is there any laptop with a non-straight keyboard? Ergonomic I mean
23:56:05 <Vorpal> Maybe not as extreme as a MS natural or such, but somewhat
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23:57:03 <Koen_> hey are there keyboards you can put on the palm of your hands?
23:57:55 <Vorpal> Koen_, I guess you could strap on the datahand and it would still work?
23:58:05 <Bike> There are keyer gloves...
23:58:58 <Vorpal> Bike, how do they work? Do you end up looking really futuristic while using them
23:59:18 <Bike> it's just a chorded keyboard, as far as i know
23:59:58 <Bike> i know a guy who uses his regular keyboard as chorded, maybe i can ask him
23:59:58 <Vorpal> http://www.keyglove.net/ <-- this one looks like a prototype hm
00:00:16 <Vorpal> Well there seem to be other ones
00:00:23 <Bike> yeah i don't think any of them are on sale or nuthin
00:00:28 <Bike> probably because noone cares
00:00:36 <elliott> this is where i link the datahand
00:00:38 <Koen_> it's open-source so it must be good
00:00:50 <Vorpal> Bike, http://www.amazon.com/The-PEREGRINE-Wearable-Interface-Medium/dp/B0035HABMM
00:00:50 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id3GQHXVjQY this is basically the opposite of futuristic
00:01:00 <Koen_> hey can you wire a keyglove to a pair of google glasses, and, you know, be *cool*
00:01:00 <Bike> uh don't talk back to me vorpal
00:01:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I already mentioned the datahand above
00:01:21 <Bike> the best thing about wearable computers is that people have been saying they look stupid since before the web
00:01:41 <Bike> Optimized for WoW, DotA, League of Legends, StarCraft 2
00:01:45 <Bike> i rest my case.
00:01:55 <Vorpal> Yes, and possibly sound stupid if you are using voice control
00:02:04 <Vorpal> "Google glass, take a picture"
00:02:15 <Vorpal> Saying that in public might not be such a smart idea
00:02:16 <Bike> Stupid and/or hallucinating.
00:02:23 <Bike> Apparently you can't use this thing as a keyboard.
00:02:36 <Vorpal> well okay, google search lied to me
00:02:41 <elliott> i think people are used to talking to nobody at this point
00:02:50 <elliott> given that handsfree stuff exists
00:03:01 <Bike> ##electronics is being exist again whyyyyy
00:03:14 <mnoqy> being exist: truly the worst curse
00:03:15 <elliott> sort of like everything else
00:03:18 <Vorpal> <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id3GQHXVjQY this is basically the opposite of futuristic <-- yes, and it looks very hot too
00:03:21 <Koen_> hey, people talking in the phone with a handfree set already look stupid
00:03:25 <Bike> you know what i'm just not going to fix it
00:03:49 <Bike> Vorpal: "hot", I think you mean "optimized for arctic use". think like a marketer
00:03:50 <Vorpal> Koen_, even more so if bluetooth so there is no visible cable
00:04:08 <Vorpal> Bike, eh I have gloves like that. So not arctic. Just Nordic
00:04:17 <Koen_> and you know I keep thinking they're talking to me
00:04:20 <Bike> i'm pretty sure nordland is in the arctic.
00:04:42 <Vorpal> But not the south of Sweden where I live
00:04:51 <Vorpal> Not arctic climate here
00:05:00 <Koen_> oh hey I was at a bar earlier today
00:05:15 <mnoqy> did you just realize that Koen_
00:05:17 <Koen_> and I wanted a beer and the waiter told us what kind of beers he had
00:05:22 <Vorpal> Bike, it would be arctic climate if it wasn't for the gulf ocean stream, which carries hot water up here
00:05:32 <Koen_> and he had affligem, and when he said it it sounded like "african"
00:05:47 <Koen_> and you know, African beer? I had never tried that before so I asked for one
00:06:01 <Bike> i only drink asian beer
00:06:40 <Fiora> Bike: I know it's not quite what they were thinking of but "hand keyboard" makes me think of these things
00:06:43 <Fiora> http://ulva.com/images/maltron-right-hand785x581.jpg
00:06:48 <Koen_> mnoqy: I just wanted to share that african beer was a myth
00:07:21 <mnoqy> what a crappy myth
00:07:35 <Koen_> Fiora: I have no idea what position my hand is expected to be in to type on that
00:07:56 <Vorpal> elliott, hm.. "On a typical PC keyboard of today, the Caps Lock is pressed by the weakest finger pinky. The Ctrl key can be easily pressed with palm.", I just tried, on a laptop with ctrl outmost (nope), on my MS Natural (hell no) and on a standard straight PS/2 keyboard (not really without hitting other stuff, but least improbable of all the alternatives)
00:08:13 <elliott> well your hands are gigantic or whatever
00:08:43 <kmc> yeah ##electronics is not "kmc social values approved"
00:08:46 <mnoqy> who the heck presses ctrl with the palm
00:08:50 <Fiora> press the ctrl key with your palm? @_@
00:08:51 <kmc> perhaps i should have made that clear before
00:08:52 <elliott> though again I find hitting alt with thumb most comfortable
00:08:55 <mnoqy> ctrl is 100% a pinky key
00:09:01 <Vorpal> I can do ctrl-i with one hand on a MS Natural, awkward and not possible without turning myself yes, but that is the span
00:09:06 <Fiora> I have to move my entire hand over to do that
00:09:29 <Bike> kmc: well it was obvious within two minutes of going in. still quite irritating
00:09:49 <mnoqy> ##electronics sounds bad
00:09:52 <Bike> how do you press anything with your palm.
00:10:19 <Bike> the guest of christmas past has come for you, koen
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00:10:45 <Vorpal> Bike, I suspect you could reliably hit space with the lower part of your palm (though not on a laptop or ultraflat), but what would the point be
00:11:03 <Vorpal> Definitely possible on my MS Natural
00:11:25 <Koen_> I think there's some animal on the roof
00:11:42 <Vorpal> Btw, it was good getting a split keyboard, turned out i was hitting g with the wrong hand before.
00:12:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, gnomes
00:12:37 <mnoqy> i dont worry about "correct hand".. i often hit things with the wrong hand if it's easier to hit them that way the way my hands are situated
00:12:48 <mnoqy> or i just always hit them with the wrong hand id
00:13:04 <Vorpal> elliott, with palm for ctrl I can't hit anything closer than the F keys with my fingers without them hurting
00:13:16 <elliott> anyway my point is not that ctrl is in a good position really
00:13:21 <mnoqy> i dont think it hurts my productivity or moral fibre
00:13:21 <elliott> just that caps lock isn't in a good position either
00:13:29 <Vorpal> well okay, that might be true
00:13:50 <Vorpal> elliott, where would you have it? I think I would actually suggest pedals for the modifiers
00:13:57 <Koen_> mnoqy: or i just always hit them with the wrong hand idk <<< wouldn't that make it the right hand then?
00:14:03 <elliott> well like I said the position of alt seems best for the main command modifier key
00:14:08 <mnoqy> Koen_: left, actually
00:14:15 <elliott> so maybe I will swap alt and ctrl next time I am on non-OS X
00:14:17 <Koen_> right as in notwrong
00:14:33 <Vorpal> elliott, say left foot down = ctrl, left foot forward = alt, right foot down = shift, right foot forward = altgr
00:14:48 <elliott> well I don't think foot pedals on a laptop is such a winning idea
00:14:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes, that would be an issue
00:15:07 <Koen_> Phantom_Hoover: can you hear them too?
00:15:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving").
00:15:29 <mnoqy> is this some sort of stupid joke or
00:15:45 <mnoqy> rest peacefully, ph
00:24:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
00:32:28 <Bike> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/10/mod-trident-scotland-independence hahaha
00:33:06 <kmc> just let them have some nukes
00:33:08 <kmc> what's the big deal
00:33:22 <Bike> well they don't want them
00:33:33 <Bike> and if the UK doesn't have a nuclear submarine patrolling at all times France will invade
01:16:32 <HackEgo> johnny57: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:18:19 <Phantom_Hoover> for some reason when i saw that text i thought of fruit polos
01:21:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pblist: not found
01:21:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: plist: not found
01:21:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: blist: not found
01:22:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: flist: not found
01:22:03 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia
01:22:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that was sad
01:23:21 <Bike> do we have `alwllist
01:23:33 <Bike> `alillist actually
01:23:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: alillist: not found
01:24:05 <Bike> i don't see any strips after honk, phantom.
01:24:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: allelelist: not found
01:26:21 <Phantom_Hoover> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hitchhiker's_thumbs.jpg omg there's a name for this?)
01:28:07 <Fiora> Huh, tongue rolling *isn't* inheritable?
01:29:51 <Fiora> "There is little laboratory evidence supporting the hypothesis that tongue rolling is inheritable and dominant. A 1975 twin study found that identical twins were no more likely than fraternal twins to both have the same phenotype for tongue rolling."
01:30:43 <Fiora> but earwax still is apparently?
01:31:01 * Fiora has the dominant gene yay
01:31:13 <kmc> what are the consequences of the dominant gene
01:31:30 <Fiora> the wet type is dominant and dry is recessive, it says?
01:31:41 <kmc> i don't know which type of earwax i have
01:31:45 <kmc> and maybe I would be happy not knowing
01:31:45 <Phantom_Hoover> it also says that dry is mostly found in asians and native americans
01:32:27 <Fiora> I guess I got that from my dad, though it just says "more likely", so
01:32:48 <Fiora> I guess tongue rolling is a lot easier to show around in a bio class xD
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01:33:14 <Fiora> oh! and there's the tasting "PTC" thing
01:34:40 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, you can't exactly do much with ability to smell cyanide, or albinism
01:34:58 <Koen_> what's tongue rolling?
01:35:09 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rolled_tongue_flikr.jpg
01:37:00 <Koen_> I can roll my tongue the other way
01:37:01 <mnoqy> thats pretty gross ph
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02:19:51 <Sgeo> "any compiled language can have BOFs"
02:19:56 <Sgeo> [buffer overflows]
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02:45:06 <kmc> people are wrong on the internet
02:45:56 <Fiora> no sleeping tonight kmc
02:46:58 <Sgeo> kmc, I knew him IRL
02:47:00 <kmc> fortunately i have many techniques for not caring that people are wrong on the Internet
02:47:07 <kmc> Sgeo: oh, well, people are sometimes wrong IRL too
02:47:10 <Sgeo> He's a pen tester
02:47:12 <kmc> i am frequently wrong anywhere
02:47:20 <kmc> Sgeo: ballpoint or fountain?
02:47:34 <Sgeo> The best kind of pen
02:49:01 <kmc> pen 15 club
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02:49:37 <Bike> apparently hume did a pretty good criticism of gofai. i'm thrill'd
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02:50:07 <kmc> i saw a seagull basically hovering about 4 feet above the ground
02:50:10 <kmc> on an updraft
02:50:16 <kmc> they are so skilled
02:50:30 <Bike> birds own, imo
02:51:40 <kmc> seagulls will swoop down and take your food but they aim at a point away from you and change course at the last moment
02:51:45 <kmc> in order to avoid tipping off others
02:53:21 <kmc> there are a lot of mourning doves in my new neighborhood, which makes me happy
02:57:16 <Bike> is that german for sleeping
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03:15:41 <Koen_> Sgeo: I don't even know the difference between a compiled language and an interpreted one
03:16:31 <Bike> compiled languages are faster, duh
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03:25:16 <Sgeo> "compiled into machine code that is directly executed by the OS/Processor"
03:25:34 <Bike> no don't try a serious explanation
03:25:39 <Sgeo> I wasn't trying it
03:25:44 <Sgeo> That was his explanation
03:25:57 <Bike> ok well it's dumb still
03:26:25 <Sgeo> "trivial languages that you make up to prove your points are irelivant
03:27:14 <Bike> hey stop arguing with the wrong person
03:27:42 <Sgeo> About half an hour ago
03:27:48 <Sgeo> Because he had other things to do
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04:05:21 * Sgeo sticks out his tongue at those who say 8GB should be enough
04:05:28 <Sgeo> Almost reached that point earlier today
04:05:37 <Sgeo> Two users logged in, a lot of work stuff and some home stuff
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05:03:08 <shachaf> Did Phantom_Hoover seriously `pbflist?
05:09:05 <shachaf> did you leave all the channels you used to be in!!
05:09:36 <mnoqy> especially #esoteric
05:09:46 <shachaf> #esoteric isn't a real channel
05:09:55 <shachaf> oonbotti........this was your cue........!!!
05:10:29 <Bike> oonbotti isn't alive it can't understand you
05:10:31 <Bike> also it's not here
05:10:45 <shachaf> bicycles aren't alive either
05:11:46 <Bike> uh dude i'm right here
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05:15:58 <nortti> it is a rewrite, doesn't have #esoteric but I can add it if you want
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05:33:38 <oerjan> was that command ever intended to have a useful purpose?
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05:40:56 <oerjan> huh Gregor is not here, or is he hiding under another nick again
05:41:35 <oerjan> i can see no sufficiently ridiculous ones :P
05:42:54 * oerjan checks a couple obscure ones just in case
05:43:20 -!- oerjan has set topic: Now playing Where's Gregor | <3 | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
05:44:10 <fizzie> 2013-07-11 00:17:35 (EEST) -!- Gregor!~Gregor@libdl.so has quit [*.net *.split]
05:51:28 <Sgeo_> Who got the infamous libc.so?
05:58:18 <kmc> how goes it
05:58:57 <Sgeo_> http://whois.domaintools.com/libc.so
05:59:05 <Sgeo_> Tech Contact ID: mxm1148892775
05:59:13 <shachaf> kmc: turns out i'll be meeting the people near the powell st bart at 19:00
05:59:22 <kmc> that's a fine bart
06:00:19 <fizzie> Sgeo_: "Contact ID: mxm1148892775 -- Internationalized Name: Marcel Meyer -- Internationalized Organization: levelsystems -- Internationalized Street: Siedlungsstrasse 6c -- Internationalized City: Erding -- Internationalized Country: DE -- Email: marcel.meyer@levelsystems.de "
06:00:41 <kmc> germany is quite the internationalized country
06:00:45 <oerjan> no:bart = en:moustache, hth
06:00:46 <kmc> shachaf: what sort of people are they
06:00:49 <Gracenotes> shachaf: oh, incidentally, the sencha reminded me a bit of local anaesthetic
06:00:55 <fizzie> levelsystems: Wir arbeiten lieber für unsere Kunden als eine hübsche Webseite zu machen...
06:00:59 <Gracenotes> that was what I was thinking of earlier
06:01:25 <shachaf> Gracenotes: that was the green rubbery tea?
06:01:48 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
06:02:00 <Gracenotes> I should figure out at some point if all sencha is like that.
06:02:07 <shachaf> kmc: some of them irc people whom i've briefly met before
06:02:10 <Gracenotes> I probably should have stuck with jasmine, but I was curious
06:02:15 <Sgeo_> Ugh I am tired and hungry and I think sleep deprivation has been making me sick
06:02:30 <shachaf> Gracenotes: tea adventure is good hth
06:02:39 <kmc> shachaf: anyone i know?
06:04:07 <shachaf> Gracenotes and i had fancy tea today btw, it was p. good hth
06:04:18 <shachaf> should i become a tea snob
06:04:26 <kmc> sounds good
06:04:45 <shachaf> should i become a tea snob
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06:05:36 <shachaf> misinformation on stackoverflow :'(
06:06:01 <Gracenotes> add a new answer, someone will surely upvote it
06:06:38 <shachaf> imo people much prefer answers like "ghc auto-memoized it" and "tail-call elimination" to answers like "GMP is just faster than Java's BigInteger"
06:07:02 <Gracenotes> yes, SO has many features that pinpoint it a lot more as a place-of-social-exchange rather than an authoritative-answer-on-unique-question.
06:07:25 <Bike> i'm... not sure how memoization would help with bignum arithmetic
06:07:42 <shachaf> well, it wouldn't help in this case, unless the function was called more than once
06:07:48 <Gracenotes> it's not really a fair marketplace of answers. it's an extremely unfair one that can still be effective, if you're lucky.
06:07:53 <Bike> i'm trying to imagine how it possibly could
06:08:15 <Bike> i guess you'd need a situation where the thing being memoized couldn't just be done by the ALU in negligible time anyway
06:08:18 <shachaf> Bike: well, if you're computing bignum fibonacci numbers or something naïvely it would probably be p. helpful
06:08:27 <Bike> ok but that's really stupid.
06:09:01 <Bike> like really dumb. might as well implement multiplication for fixnums yourself. in base 10.
06:09:06 <shachaf> in this case it's factorial which is even stupider since memoization doesn't even help (unless you use it more than once)
06:09:12 <Gracenotes> also, Haskell's Integer type isn't even GMP a lot of the time
06:09:32 <kmc> that's true, but maybe doesn't make a huge difference?
06:09:32 <Bike> computing factorials fast is a very interesting problem
06:09:33 <shachaf> also my favorite part was when someone said the haskell code was faster than the java code because ghc does strictness analysis
06:09:43 <kmc> I would expect that GMP is also pretty fast on machine-size integers
06:09:45 <kmc> shachaf: wow..........
06:10:00 <shachaf> the question at hand: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17584630/why-is-factorial-calculation-must-faster-in-haskell-than-in-java
06:10:00 <elliott> java has a very basic strictness analyser
06:10:03 <Bike> what does that... but... aaaaaah
06:10:06 <elliott> takes up only 0 lines of code
06:11:28 <Bike> man java bignums are always so wonderfully verbose
06:11:45 <Bike> what the hchrist is this cache thing, help
06:12:05 <Bike> In Haskell, all functions are pure unless they're doing IO (see link)
06:12:17 <Gracenotes> strictly speaking Java uses an array of int to implement BigInteger, but it also stores more information (5 additional words, plus 'vtable').
06:12:22 <kmc> kind of true
06:12:23 <Bike> christ. christ help
06:12:33 <Bike> This is able to do tail-call optimization because it's just iteration. The same can be done in Java with a for loop as in your example, but it won't have the benefit of being functionally pure.
06:12:47 <elliott> true by way of being tautological
06:13:04 <elliott> though only because the condition is never satisfied
06:13:06 <Bike> ok so anyway. computing factorials is interesting.
06:13:11 <Gracenotes> Haskell, on the other hand, for quite big integers, stores the number of bytes used, fact that it's long, and the number itself.
06:13:11 <elliott> well I guess you could also say it has nothing to do with functions
06:13:11 <kmc> elliott: well if your flavour of Haskell has unsafePerformIO then it's true by being tautological, but not vacuous
06:13:21 <Bike> i'm not sure how practical it is to factorize and stuff
06:13:35 <Bike> since if you're doing 1000000! you probably don't need precision anyway?
06:13:35 <elliott> kmc: okay but, I don't think considering unsafePerformIO when talking about the semantics is worthwhile.
06:14:21 <shachaf> that's the real problem here
06:14:23 <elliott> who wants to read a pop sci article about homotopy type theory http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23749-mathematicians-think-like-machines-for-perfect-proofs.html
06:14:32 <Bike> i get enough shit in pop sci about brains
06:14:33 <elliott> Bike: right from the title
06:14:38 <elliott> you know it's going to be amazing
06:14:38 <Bike> i... i can't take the math.
06:14:53 <mnoqy> im not up for anything that amazing imo
06:15:10 <Gracenotes> As well as know, types didn't exist before machines.
06:15:43 <lambdabot> 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841972
06:16:02 <mnoqy> cant believe you dont know what cereal is
06:16:08 <Bike> > 2 ^ 7 -- i also forgot
06:16:33 <mnoqy> please tell me youve seen sourcereal.com bike
06:16:39 <Bike> i think i have actually
06:16:40 <lambdabot> "3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406...
06:16:45 <Bike> > let stirling n = ((n/exp 1)^n)*(sqrt (2 * pi * n)) in stirling 1000000
06:16:46 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
06:16:46 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M582996387.sho...
06:16:52 <shachaf> sourcereal.com is v. important
06:17:07 <Bike> :t \n -> ((n/exp 1)^n)*(sqrt (2 * pi * n))
06:17:08 <lambdabot> (Floating b, Integral b) => b -> b
06:17:18 <Bike> :t \n -> ((n/exp 1)**n)*(sqrt (2 * pi * n))
06:17:25 <Bike> yeah everything's terrible imo
06:17:32 <Bike> > (\n -> ((n/exp 1)**n)*(sqrt (2 * pi * n))) 1000000
06:18:56 <kmc> > iterate log 10
06:18:57 <lambdabot> [10.0,2.302585092994046,0.834032445247956,-0.18148297420509205,NaN,NaN,NaN,...
06:19:07 <elliott> `addquote <Bike> what's cereal <mnoqy> cereal <mnoqy> cant believe you dont know what cereal is
06:19:07 <Bike> is there a log with base?
06:19:11 <HackEgo> 1071) <Bike> what's cereal <mnoqy> cereal <mnoqy> cant believe you dont know what cereal is
06:19:20 <Gracenotes> Anyway, the HoTT article has some nice quotes from Bauer
06:19:31 <Bike> > logBase 100 10
06:20:03 <Bike> > let shitfuckfuckfuck n = n * log n - n in shitfuckfuckfuck 1000000
06:20:16 <Bike> i am the worst
06:20:46 <kmc> > map (length . takeWhile (join (==)) . iterate log) $ iterate (*2) 1
06:20:47 <lambdabot> [3,3,4,4,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,...
06:21:01 <shachaf> mnoqy: you forgot to give a definition
06:21:18 <shachaf> Cereal can be defined as something that is made from cereal.
06:21:24 <shachaf> are we sure that's not cocereal
06:21:58 <Bike> oh, e7. i didn't fuck up too bad.
06:22:35 <Bike> > 1.2815510557964273e7 / log 10
06:22:41 <Gracenotes> > let x = map (length . takeWhile (join (==)) . iterate log) $ iterate (*2) 1 in findIndices not $ zipWith (==) x (tail x)
06:22:54 <Bike> so can haskell bignums handle five million digit numbers
06:23:05 <Gracenotes> > let x = take 1000 . map (length . takeWhile (join (==)) . iterate log) $ iterate (*2) 1 in findIndices not $ zipWith (==) x (tail x)
06:23:26 <Bike> yes well i don't know what gmp can handle
06:23:31 <Bike> i am the worst, as previously mentioned
06:23:31 <shachaf> Bike: that's a lot of digits
06:23:45 <shachaf> Bike: can we settle on two million digits
06:23:49 <Gracenotes> gmp can handle as many digits as can into... what's the order of magnitude... TB?
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06:24:15 <Gracenotes> Well, modulo other constraints besides just pure size.
06:24:22 <Bike> why did i get the base 10 digits first hm
06:25:40 <Bike> re aczel, it's kind of a shame i'm too principled to pretend anything brain related depends on mathematical foundations, or else i'd totally write an awesme counterpart to shittyaczelpaper based on hott
06:26:37 <Gracenotes> brains? they're pretty great, but what about them
06:26:58 <elliott> ok so the abc conjecture proof includes a paper with the title "Inter-universal Teichmuller Theory I: Construction of Hodge Theaters"
06:27:02 <elliott> why did nobody tell me this before.
06:27:09 <Bike> elliott: dude those papers are great
06:27:15 <Bike> they make no sense
06:27:31 <Bike> Gracenotes: you're missing this whole "backstory" that i already explained to elliott
06:27:54 <Gracenotes> you should have been hanging out with me in Palo Alto
06:28:05 <Bike> that's like ten waleses away though.
06:28:10 <Gracenotes> rather than explaining things to elliott
06:28:14 <elliott> Bike: what aczel paper are we talking here
06:28:15 <mnoqy> thats a good paper title
06:28:22 <shachaf> higgledy piggledy / GMP Integer: / only constrained by the / size of your RAM. // sure, i'm neglecting the / addressability; / 32-bit are some / kind of a scam
06:28:35 <fizzie> Maximum number of limbs in a GMP number is whatever fits in an int on your platform; the limbs themselves are typically 32 or 64 bits.
06:28:57 <shachaf> these double dactyl things are hard ok
06:29:06 <Bike> elliott: the bikeologist one
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06:29:31 <fizzie> So that's somewhere around 68719476736 or 137438953472 bits.
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06:29:57 <shachaf> write me a double dactyl and/or limerick plz thx hth
06:30:21 <Gracenotes> I will also accept poems in onegin stanza
06:30:31 <lambdabot> http://www.matisse.net/bitcalc/?input_amount=137438953472&input_units=bytes¬ation=legacy
06:30:31 <lambdabot> Title: Bit Calculator - Convert between bits/bytes/kilobits/kilobytes/megabits/megab...
06:30:41 <shachaf> @google 137438953472 bits in terabytes
06:30:43 <lambdabot> http://letconversion.com/data-storage-conversion/from-terabits/to-bytes
06:30:43 <lambdabot> Title: Terabits to Bytes Conversion Calculator - LetConversion
06:30:49 <Gracenotes> I will even take both tetrameter and pentameter
06:30:50 <shachaf> wow that's not a lot of TB
06:30:55 <shachaf> Gracenotes: sure, go for it
06:31:02 <Bike> 12:18 <Bike> a biologist mentioned it (it was a dumb mention) 12:18 <elliott> of course it was, a biologist made it
06:31:10 <Bike> that's "the backstory"
06:31:15 <shachaf> Bike: Wow, that's pretty rude.
06:31:37 <shachaf> hmm i was going to make a mean joke but i won't make it
06:32:12 <Taneb> There was a man on Wight/whose limericks were kinda shite/When asked for a ditty/his response was so shitty/His entire audience got a fright
06:32:16 <Bike> you know who aczel is right
06:32:20 <shachaf> imo onegin stanzas aren't so great usually? in english anyway? but maybe they are
06:32:41 <Bike> he did all that set theory stuff
06:32:50 <shachaf> Gracenotes: you could also just write me a plain old iambic pentameter shakespeare-style sonnet imo
06:32:59 <Bike> and a biologist was like "wow this is totally relevant to my field"
06:33:03 <Bike> even though it wasn't & that's dumb
06:33:09 <Bike> and wrote a paper about it.
06:33:10 <Gracenotes> shachaf: you still haven't given me something funny and specific you don't like
06:33:18 <Taneb> How was that limerick
06:33:37 <shachaf> Gracenotes: oh the limerick i was talking about before:
06:33:51 <Gracenotes> Taneb: good, maybe change last line to "His toupe perked up in fright"
06:34:02 <elliott> "Double dactyl verse form is, perhaps unsurprisingly, rare in popular music."
06:34:04 <Gracenotes> ...makes about as much sense? or less, which is better.
06:34:17 <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
06:34:32 <elliott> nice fucking the unicode up!!
06:34:52 <shachaf> because ꙮ is alphanumeric?
06:35:41 <Taneb> Is it bad that I read that little square as "multi-ocular o"
06:35:55 <Taneb> When it didn't render at all
06:35:57 <Bike> the worst backstoyr
06:36:03 <elliott> my terminal is broken I guess!
06:36:12 <shachaf> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/s is rendering it "just fine"
06:36:17 <Taneb> And I am on a mobile device
06:36:34 <Taneb> Which may or may not support unicode
06:36:47 <Gracenotes> okay, I think I've reached a local maxima with mine
06:37:03 <Gracenotes> There was a young critic named shachaf / Who put #haskell flags on a mast-half / When asked why he said / "I don't think it's yet dead, / but I hope it'll get there quite fast-fast"
06:37:27 <Bike> who doens't like #h a s k el ldl
06:37:35 <shachaf> imo import more hebrew to rhyme with "shachaf"
06:38:08 <Gracenotes> yeah I know, I don't want/do code-switching
06:40:34 <elliott> having a hard time coming up with an anti-biologist limerick here
06:42:10 <Bike> how about make fun of vitalism
06:42:45 <Taneb> There were some poetic motes/Penned by a chap named Gracenotes/The meter was sluggish/The rhymes were rubbish/And it wasn't even the worst thing he/she wrote
06:43:56 <Taneb> I can't think of anything that rhymes with Taneb
06:44:25 <elliott> Bike: can you finish this anti-biologist limerick for me
06:44:28 <elliott> ps it's also an anti-bike limerick
06:47:54 <Bike> there once was a man in nantucket / he watched birds and the bees and a duck pit / til one day at noon / they drained the lagoon / and right then and there he said "fuck it"
06:47:57 <Bike> best i can do elliott
06:48:01 <Taneb> There once was a boy called elliott/Who thought biologists smell-iot/He wrote a short rhyme/In limerick time/And said "with the last line to hell-iot"
06:48:11 <elliott> yiou were meant to finish MINE
06:48:19 <Bike> wait where's yours
06:48:28 <elliott> ok here you go "there once was a biologist named Bike / who found his head stuck on a pike. / the previous day / channel regulars say /"
06:48:55 <Bike> does that first line even fit the meter...
06:49:24 <shachaf> Taneb: can you please fix your meter thx
06:50:07 <Gracenotes> Some physicists sought to compete / With biologists who lived down the street / The biologists leisured / Since they couldn't be measured / Because all of their work was discrete.
06:50:28 <Bike> dude did you rhyme "leisured" with "measured"
06:50:30 <Bike> what kind of accent is taht
06:50:53 <Bike> oh right people say it like "ledgered"
06:51:11 <shachaf> Bike: did you rhyme "nantucket" with "duck pit"
06:51:36 <elliott> There once was a beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
06:51:39 <Gracenotes> pretty good, eh. not exactly a searing punchline, but... it's basically true...
06:51:55 <Bike> shachaf: hey that works! almost
06:51:55 <mnoqy> id you rhyme summer with fuck
06:52:00 <Bike> the real flaw with mine is that it's terrible
06:52:03 -!- oerjan has set topic: Vogon poetry's got nothing on us | <3 | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
06:52:06 <Bike> just in general
06:52:44 <shachaf> oerjan: hey my original one was good
06:53:01 <shachaf> that was the best limerick of all
06:53:05 <Gracenotes> I'm not sure how to make one criticizing physicists without going for the obvious stuff (like cow spheres)
06:53:08 <mnoqy> maybe i should write a lickermich
06:53:12 <Taneb> A man once insulted my metrical technique/Despite my skills being at humanity's peak/So during the night/Purely out of spite/I killed him as he slept under a sheet
06:53:49 <Bike> Gracenotes: i'd be impressed to see a limerick criticizing renormalization
06:53:51 <elliott> it actually hurt to read that
06:54:20 <oerjan> There once was an expert on brainfuck / how the fuck do you rhyme with brainfuck
06:54:39 <Gracenotes> 'summer' rhymes with 'brianfuck' I think
06:55:33 <elliott> yo what's a bad thing you can do to someone that ends with -ition
06:55:55 <Bike> being petitioned sucks
06:56:06 <Gracenotes> (in Christian theology) A state of eternal punishment and damnation into which a sinful and unpenitent person passes after death.
06:56:08 <elliott> there once was a mathematician / fit only for eternal perdition / on type theory he said / "I'd rather be dead / than formulate proofs with precision"
06:56:24 <shachaf> stop it with the bad rhymes
06:56:32 <elliott> i bet mnoqy likes my limerick
06:56:35 <shachaf> better to not rhyme at all
06:56:43 <elliott> tell me how you really feel
06:56:45 <Bike> i think mathematician/perdition is ok
06:56:52 <Taneb> There once was an expert on brainfuck/On whose shoulder sat a plain duck/He looked at it and said/"Hop on to my head/"And this will be the best day of summer"
06:57:10 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm sorry, that _does_ rhyme. it just doesn't scan.
06:57:12 <Bike> Fuck the last line
06:57:25 <shachaf> oerjan: no, it doesn't do nothin'
06:57:27 <Bike> -ion is enough for it
06:57:35 <Bike> it seems like it scans to me...
06:57:45 <Bike> i guess 'eternal' is too long
06:57:58 <elliott> instead of "eternal perdition" i originally had "harsh extradition
06:57:59 <Bike> how about 'utter'
06:58:03 <mnoqy> (thinks) how do i make the rhyme (stops thinking)
06:58:24 <Taneb> A dangerous mission
06:58:26 <Bike> yeah, i think 'utter' works.
06:58:30 <Bike> you're welcome, elliott.
06:58:31 <shachaf> ok how about some drugz rhymes
06:58:33 <Gracenotes> A kitty did mew in the night / For her hunger did hit with such fright / She did look to her mother / As there was no other / With nipples
06:58:43 <Gracenotes> you had to expect an anti-limerick at some point, yes
06:58:55 <mnoqy> haven't half of these been anti limericks
06:59:31 <Gracenotes> I wanted to choose the most saccharine topic and the most predictable of subversions
06:59:50 <Bike> too many tildes help
07:00:11 <elliott> there once was a hoover ethereal / who despised derivative material / on the wiki he saw / some brainfucking lore / and gave brick-brain punishment imperial
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07:00:47 <mnoqy> there once was a dude called shachaf / now hes gone / rip
07:01:08 <Bike> elliott: you seem to like packing syllables into that second line
07:01:13 <Gracenotes> New rule: no limericks allowed for the next 2 months
07:01:15 <Bike> what did it ever do for you to deserve such bounty
07:01:22 <Gracenotes> all in favor yell angrily at your screens
07:01:55 <Bike> too tired for yelling
07:02:32 <elliott> there once was a lover of cereal / who sought to define the material / on sourcereal.com / they dropped the truth bomb / "it is something made from cereal"
07:02:59 <Taneb> There once was an onslaught of tilde s/By Which a poetry veteran was killed/Our painful rhymes/And meter less than sublime/Only stood to give him a pretty good thrill
07:03:09 <Bike> something that's made out of cereal
07:03:21 <elliott> Bike: http://sourcereal.com
07:03:28 <elliott> have to stay as true to the source material as possible
07:03:46 <mnoqy> Definition of Sour Cereal
07:03:46 <mnoqy> Cereal can be defined as something that is made from cereal. One can put it in a bowl, on a plate, or leave it in a box. Cereal is a nice thing to think about and sometimes eat. Sour cereal is an example of a type of cereal with spices.
07:04:08 <Taneb> Brb,.getting cereal
07:05:23 <Bike> <META NAME="description" CONTENT="This is a page about cereal, specifically sour cereal.">
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07:32:17 <Taneb> I enjoyed my cereal
07:48:29 <oerjan> i think badly scanning poetry is from now on a bannable offense hth
07:48:53 <oerjan> i'm sorry, elliott, that means you cannot write poetry any more
07:50:50 <elliott> oerjan: no, it just means I'll be banned from it. but happily I have the power to remove bans!
07:50:58 <elliott> or maybe not without +R. fuck &, also, shit
07:51:29 <oerjan> repeated offenses _may_ affect your ability to unban hth
07:51:59 <oerjan> it's just protecting sentient life in the universe, i hope you understand this is necessary
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07:54:49 <kmc> i missed a lot though
07:58:48 <kmc> hi elliott
07:58:51 <kmc> shachaf left :/
07:59:13 <kmc> i was about to nominate him as poet laureate
08:04:58 <fizzie> It's special-characters hour here at the #esoteric.
08:06:04 <fizzie> ıf you w®ıþ€ wıþh əlþ-ŋ® ðowñ oñ þhıš ĸ€yßoə®ð ləyouþ, þh€ €ñ𠮀šulþ šþıll ĸıñð of looĸš lıĸ€ ®€ŋulə® þ€×þ.
08:06:29 <mnoqy> imo thats kind of like badly scanning poetry
08:07:02 <fizzie> The use of altgr-b for the not-beta-but-German-ss ß is kind of rude. "Looks like B" indeed.
08:12:00 <kmc> it's Compose S S
08:13:15 <kmc> ſ is Compose F S which seems... all right?
08:13:57 <oerjan> ("if you write with alt-gr down on this keyboard, the result is rather disappointing.)
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09:01:28 <oerjan> oh, this simon tatham puzzle was made by ben olmstead
09:03:29 <mnoqy> is simon tatham a brand
09:04:37 <oerjan> he made putty and this puzzle collection, both of which i use
09:23:23 <elliott> oerjan: you won't be using one of those for long, hth
09:23:56 <fizzie> That sounds like a threat hth
09:24:22 <elliott> yes. I'm going to threaten him with a linux installation CD
09:45:23 <fizzie> LIBDBUSMENU-GLIB-WARNING **: Trying to remove a child that doesn't believe we're it's parent.
09:50:29 <elliott> that happened to mnoqy too
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10:27:41 <Deewiant> Bike: ghc -e 'print (product [1..905381] :: Integer)' | wc -L ==> 5000004
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10:50:57 <elliott> coppro: hi I have clang questions
10:51:20 <elliott> coppro: 1. is clang's output without any -O at all as completely-terrible as gcc's is i.e. do I always want at least -O or -Os or whatever
10:51:29 <elliott> coppro: 2. does clang give worse warnings without -O like gcc does
10:52:38 <Deewiant> 1. Yes to the part before the i.e., I think, but definitely no to the part after it
10:53:10 <elliott> have you seen gcc's -O0 output
10:53:13 <Deewiant> 2. I'm pretty sure that the answer is no
10:53:47 <Deewiant> I've probably seen some of it at some point
10:54:38 <elliott> well I don't see how you could stand ever using it :P
10:54:52 <elliott> it's like the output of a toy C compiler you would write in a weekend for fun
10:55:01 <Deewiant> Do you compile stuff in order to look at the generated assembly?
10:55:12 <Deewiant> I think clang only uses FastISel at -O0
10:55:18 <elliott> no but I don't want to feel like I'm running a Python program :(
10:55:23 <Jafet> Do you ever want to read -O0 assembly
10:55:34 <elliott> it does shave 15 seconds off the build time though
10:55:39 <Deewiant> Which means it should be significantly (once your program is big enough) faster to compile stuff at -O0
10:55:42 <elliott> which is nice because I'm really lazy
10:55:54 <elliott> well, compared to -O2, a bit less compared to -Os
10:56:06 <Deewiant> Isn't -O equal to -O2 in gcc and hence clang
10:56:30 <elliott> pretty sure -O1 is a thing
10:56:34 <Jafet> elliott: python cannot run, it slithers
10:56:39 <elliott> or was -O made to alias to -O2 at some point
10:56:46 <fizzie> -O is equal to -O1, I believe.
10:57:06 <elliott> also I think clang doesn't support gcc's fancy -ggdb3 stuff
10:57:10 <Deewiant> I thought it was -O2 ever since the -O[123] were introduced
10:57:21 <elliott> and apparently it doesn't do any more than line numbers if you use anything other than -O0???
10:57:21 <Deewiant> But I'm probably thinking of a different compiler
10:57:28 <elliott> can I have a compiler refund
10:57:37 <Deewiant> Any more than line numbers in what?
10:57:51 <elliott> -g Generate debug information. Note that Clang debug information
10:57:51 <elliott> works best at -O0. At higher optimization levels, only line number
10:57:51 <elliott> information is currently available.
10:57:56 <elliott> admittedly, this is more reason to use -O0
10:57:57 <Jafet> The return shipping for your gnu is one gnu.
10:58:14 <Deewiant> I don't think I've ever used debug information for anything other than line numbers
10:58:26 <elliott> well I just like knowing there's something fancy involved you know
10:58:39 <elliott> I think -ggdb3 made something perceptibly nicer when I switched to it with gcc
10:58:46 <Deewiant> Which is actually a bit surprising now that I think about it, but oh well
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11:02:04 <Jafet> Is there any other debugging information than line numbers and symtab
11:02:06 <elliott> oh good that made the build slower
11:02:21 <Jafet> Perhaps your ramdisk is swapping
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11:35:01 <ais523> so, I came across a fun pathological function in my research yesterday
11:35:27 <ais523> that I'm having trouble expressing in any programming language (other than languages as low-level as, say, VHDL)
11:35:47 <ais523> when you call it, it returns two functions/closures, let's call them f() and g()
11:36:20 <ais523> err, there are side effects involved here, so let me try to be clear about the types
11:36:36 <ais523> my function is (IO ()) -> (IO (), IO ())
11:36:44 <ais523> not very good at Haskell
11:37:00 <elliott> maybe it should be -> IO (IO (), IO ())?
11:37:26 <ais523> no, I'm reasonably sure it isn't, in this case; there are no side effects involved until you actually execute the return values
11:37:57 <elliott> so it's just two IO () -> IO () functions
11:38:20 <ais523> yep, it's equivalent to that, although conceptually weird thinking about it
11:38:35 <ais523> maybe I do need an extra IO in order to avoid having to compare functions
11:38:53 <elliott> um, that sounds implausible but ok
11:38:55 <ais523> I guess it is IO () -> IO (IO (), IO ()), just so that the two return values can be aware of each other
11:39:18 <ais523> anyway, if you call either of the return values, then the original argument starts executing
11:39:39 <ais523> and the return values stop executing when either the original argument stops executing, or the other return value is called
11:39:52 <ais523> as in, while the original argument is executing, there has to be at least one of the return values executing
11:39:54 <ais523> but they can take it in turns
11:40:11 <Deewiant> Stop as in they can continue or as in they die
11:40:28 <ais523> so, e.g., I call pathological(delay 1000), that gives me two functions f and g
11:40:40 <ais523> if I call f, then it won't return for 1000 time or until I call g
11:40:52 <ais523> if I call g, then f returns, now g won't return until the original 1000 time is up or I call f again
11:40:54 <elliott> conflation of functions and programs upsets :(
11:41:20 <ais523> actually in Haskell this doesn't need two functions, because you could call the same function simultaneously from different threads
11:41:50 <ais523> if you spend a few days staring at linear logic, you start ceasing to be able to comprehend the idea of copying data
11:42:20 <ais523> so I could just make it (IO ()) -> IO (IO ())
11:42:27 <shachaf> So this is like a weird version of spawn?
11:42:49 <ais523> it feels like a concurrency primitive, but it doesn't match any of the concurrency primitives I've ever seen
11:43:05 <ais523> it was a counterexample to something I was trying to prove
11:43:19 <shachaf> Such that if you run the action from one thread, it returns in any other thread that's running it?
11:43:58 <ais523> or well, the idea is that once you start it running, it finishes, but threads can pretty much change /which/ thread is running it arbitrarily
11:44:42 <ais523> the analogy I use as a mental model of it is, you start some long-running task that needs someone to constantly supervise it
11:44:43 <shachaf> Instead of being an action can this be a sort of lockish thing?
11:44:50 <ais523> but you can change who's supervising it
11:45:09 <shachaf> Such that you "wait" on it and then someone else can wait on it instead.
11:45:21 <ais523> shachaf: I tried to implement it with locks, but failed, and it's quite easy to prove (using the same research that discovered it in the same place) that that's impossible with a static concurrency model
11:45:47 <ais523> (e.g. one where each fork() has to have a matching wait() called from the same thread)
11:47:41 <ais523> I guess you could handle it with an integer semaphore and a thread that's happy to clean up for itself and doesn't need to report back to a parent
11:48:58 <quintopia> where is that asshole Phantom_Hoover
11:49:00 <ais523> hmm… now I'm tempted to add this as a concurrency primitive to INTERCAL
11:49:17 <ais523> it fits the action-at-a-distance flavour of INTERCAL quite well
11:49:28 <quintopia> he triggered the pbflist and there is no new pbf. false positives are a waste of my time!
11:49:40 <shachaf> quintopia: That's what I said!
11:50:07 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, you're here now. Don't do the thing you did.
11:50:37 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia
11:50:54 <shachaf> You're just being annoying, you know.
11:51:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i think on some level you're to blame for taking the `list system seriously
11:52:59 <quintopia> any system for systematically pinging people should be taken seriously
11:53:12 <Vorpal> ais523, what use is this new concurrency primitive?
11:53:14 <quintopia> because pinging people for no reason is annoying. it's also called "spam"
11:53:22 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't know that it's useful
11:53:25 <quintopia> the people who do it are called "spammers"
11:54:06 <Vorpal> ais523, Are you sure you couldn't implement it with other primitives anyway? I believe I can think of a way, though it isn't wait-free.
11:54:10 <elliott> i suggest a collective dropping of the topic
11:54:39 <ais523> Vorpal: as I said, it's provable that you can't do it with a static concurrency model, but if you have more general concurrency models it's implementable
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11:55:44 <Vorpal> ais523, I admit I'm not an expert on this area, and I'm not quite sure what a static concurrency model is, but I'm thinking in terms of pthreads with semaphores message queues.
11:57:08 <Vorpal> Or maybe not. I'll have to work out the details
11:58:25 <ais523> I think pthreads doesn't have any particular "parent" / "child" division, or at least lets children outlive their parents
11:58:28 <ais523> so it's probably workable
11:58:36 <ais523> it's surprisingly nontrivial even if your language is expressive enough, though
11:58:39 <Vorpal> Well yes, is that a requirement for static concurrency?
11:58:45 <Vorpal> I suspect you could do it in terms of a couple of semaphores and mutexes in fact.
11:59:25 <ais523> Vorpal: that's pretty much what static concurrency is
12:00:37 <Vorpal> Here is how I would do it: Transform the task into three functions: f,g and h, have h execute the actual task, in a separate thread, have f and g wait on a signaling semaphore, these can either be signaled by h completing, or the other function of f or g being called. You will need to refine it a bit to handle two functions calling f, or f/g being called after h completes but the idea should work I beli
12:01:16 <Vorpal> ais523, unless I misunderstood the problem that seems like a pretty straight forward implementation in a pthreads style environment
12:01:20 <ais523> Vorpal: yeah, I think that works
12:01:58 <Vorpal> I believe it is an utterly useless thing though. :)
12:02:47 <elliott> kmc: do you have any particular recommendations wrt what ThinkPads are good to buy (I realise this is hopelessly vague)
12:02:47 <Vorpal> out of interest ais523, what else defines a static concurrency model?
12:03:07 <shachaf> elliott: kmc has a thinkpad x1 carbon and it looks p. nice
12:03:24 <FreeFull> I love STM, but people say there might be something better possible
12:03:28 <ais523> Vorpal: well it basically means that your only thread-creation primitive is a "run X and Y in parallel" function, or can be implemented in terms of that
12:03:33 <ais523> which doesn't return until both X and Y return
12:04:16 <Vorpal> ais523, But you are free to do whatever in terms or semaphores, message queues, critical sections and so on?
12:04:30 <shachaf> Oh well, he helped me with a thing in /msg the other day, he can keep the extra karma.
12:05:12 <elliott> shachaf: /set window_history on
12:05:15 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, there's no restriction on synchronization primitives
12:05:23 <Vorpal> Also btw, I never understood the difference between a critical section and a mutex. They just seems like two ways to express the same thing?
12:05:36 <elliott> Vorpal: a mutex is one way to implement a critical section
12:05:49 <elliott> a critical section is a semantic property rather than some specific implementation
12:06:08 <shachaf> elliott: Why do I want that?
12:06:17 <elliott> shachaf: it makes up-arrow work better
12:06:26 <elliott> also re: X1 Carbon, that is one of the models I am looking at
12:06:44 <shachaf> I frequently e.g. /msg things to lambdabot and later up-arrow in another window.
12:06:53 <shachaf> Well, I suppose I could up-arrow in the lambdabot window.
12:07:01 <shachaf> I'll keep it like this for now.
12:07:12 <shachaf> (The reason for the mis-up-arrow is that my palm touched my touchpad.)
12:07:13 <ais523> huh, I didn't realise there were clients that didn't have per-window history
12:07:14 <elliott> the resolution on them is kind of bad though it seems :(
12:07:22 <shachaf> (Which scroled the scroll-wheel, etc.)
12:07:27 -!- oonbotti2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:08:10 <Vorpal> ais523, you could emulate non-static concurrency in a static concurrency using a concept of worker thread pools? Just start x number of threads and make them never complete. Now you can use message queues to submit jobs, and then you can implement the weird primitive above
12:08:15 <Vorpal> Or am I missing something?
12:08:51 <elliott> shachaf: also they're p. expensive
12:09:02 <Vorpal> You can just emulate a non-static concurrency on top using semaphores to signal "completion" of your threads and so on
12:09:18 <ais523> Vorpal: oh, in my case that didn't work because we can't send anything more complex than an int
12:09:27 <ais523> the perils of hardware compilation
12:09:41 <ais523> I guess you could translate everything into bytecode and then interpret it at the other end :)
12:09:49 <shachaf> elliott: you should get the clevo W740SU so you can tell me whether it's any good hth
12:09:59 <elliott> ideally I would like something with an ultrabook form factor and battery life and workstation-replacement specs and netbook price........
12:10:06 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, the concept of static concurrency seems a bit ill-defined if you can just emulate non-static concurrency on top of it.
12:10:19 <ais523> Vorpal: it's ill-defined if the rest of your system is also ill-defined
12:10:42 <ais523> if you have a sufficiently well-defined model of what you can and can't do, it's quite easy to define static concurrency too
12:10:46 <quintopia> elliott: i want all that too! let me know when those are invented.
12:10:49 <ais523> `quote removing concurrency
12:10:51 <HackEgo> 236) <ais523> gah, who'd have thought removing concurrency from algol could be so difficult
12:10:59 <Vorpal> ais523, well okay, is having full blown semaphores and message queues ill-defined?
12:11:35 <ais523> Vorpal: if you even have to ask the question, rather than having an answer ready to hand, it means that your system as a whole is ill-defined
12:11:53 <ais523> like, does this system have higher-order functions? does it have closures?
12:12:05 <ais523> in particular, can we send a closure through a message queue and get some sort of useful result?
12:12:22 <ais523> (these problems are nontrivial, e.g. compare "can I send a filehandle over a network connection?")
12:12:35 <ais523> (in most programming languages, the answer to that is "no"; in CLC-INTERCAL, it's "yes")
12:12:37 <Vorpal> In unix you kind of can
12:12:55 <Vorpal> Erlang allows that fully across all nodes of course
12:13:12 <Vorpal> ais523, you wouldn't need to send closures though, as you said above yourself, bytecode.
12:13:42 <ais523> Vorpal: well, now you reach the question of "is this language capable of decompiling arbitrary functions that are passed in?"
12:13:58 <ais523> again, in some languages (e.g. Java), the answer is "yes", but it's typically "no"
12:15:53 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, you could even in C just implement an interpreter for your own byte code. Or you might not even need that. Something like an enum defining predefined tasks and some arguments to it could be enough to implement a limited number of tasks if that is all you need.
12:16:14 <elliott> shachaf: also they only have 8 gigs of RAM :'(
12:16:37 <shachaf> elliott: Which one, the X1?
12:17:06 <shachaf> But back in the day you couldn't even get i7+8GB at once. You had to choose 4GB or i5.
12:17:26 <shachaf> Dark old days when kmc was looking at it.
12:17:35 <ais523> "back in the day" "4 GB"
12:17:54 <ais523> I never really used computers in the "640KB is enough for everyone" era
12:18:08 <shachaf> elliott: imo what's not to like about that clevo thing, 4-core haswell cpu, 1920×1080, <2kg, supports 16GB ram, no nvidia optimus
12:18:21 <ais523> but I did use them in the era when 640KiB was the base memory and you needed to use unusual APIs to access the other 2MiB, with many programs stuck in the bottom 640
12:18:28 <elliott> which one is the clevo again
12:18:29 <shachaf> except i'm not sure if it's actually good. this is where you come in
12:18:42 <shachaf> the one system76.com is selling among other places
12:18:49 <Vorpal> elliott, if you want a powerhouse computer, the business Dells laptops are quite good. Not very portable, and pretty bad battery life. Matte screen and trackpoint though.
12:19:45 <elliott> Vorpal: not really what I'm looking for, I want the laptop part more for the portability indoors than for it being a desktop you can lug around elsewhere
12:19:52 <elliott> shachaf: rightb ut I can't find a clevo on system76.com
12:19:52 <fizzie> Hey, I have a Clevo-based laptop.
12:19:56 <Vorpal> ais523, I used my dads Mac back then. I never had to deal with that weirdness
12:20:12 <shachaf> elliott: https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/galu1 hth
12:20:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah I think it was months since I took out my work laptop of the docking station XD
12:20:19 <fizzie> It's from the 2011s, though; and big-and-heavy.
12:20:28 <ais523> Vorpal: well by then, packagers had got used to the weirdness
12:20:33 <shachaf> elliott: clevo is the manufacturer's name hth
12:20:36 <ais523> and gave simple instructions about what to put in config.sys
12:20:56 <Vorpal> ais523, but wouldn't it possibly break between different programs you wanted to run?
12:21:05 <elliott> wonder if the touchpad is any good
12:21:39 <ais523> Vorpal: not really, by that stage it was mostly a case of increasing minimum settings
12:21:48 <ais523> if you set the settings too high for a program, it'd still run just waste memory
12:22:01 <shachaf> elliott: see, that's the kind of question i need you for answering
12:22:06 <Vorpal> ais523, waste memory that could have been used for what?
12:22:06 <ais523> and that was OK because the programs that could make do with lower settings normally were written for older computers anyway which had less memory
12:22:21 <ais523> putting the settings up higher meant the kernel had to use them
12:22:29 <ais523> err, the kernel had to use more memory
12:22:32 <ais523> leaving less for userspace
12:22:47 <Vorpal> ais523, didn't some DOS programs put the computer in a 32-bit mode while running?
12:22:59 <fizzie> http://www.avadirect.com/gaming-laptop-configurator.asp?PRID=19611 <- I have this thing | it is so big.
12:23:08 <elliott> shachaf: are there any system76 display models in stores anywhere
12:23:36 <ais523> Vorpal: there were "DOS extenders" that put the system into protected mode, then turned it back into realmode whenever something tried to make a system call, so that DOS would work correctly
12:23:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, 17" heh, yeah those are big
12:23:40 <elliott> how lenient is their return policy
12:23:47 <ais523> and which handled some 32-bit system calls themselves
12:23:56 <ais523> NetHack for DOS works that way, for instance
12:24:16 <shachaf> elliott: Here's Clevo's own web page on what I'm told is the same thing: http://www.clevo.com.tw/en/products/prodinfo.asp?productid=472
12:24:25 <fizzie> (I think. At least a lot of games come with DOS4GW.)
12:24:27 <ais523> fizzie: I had to mess around with DOS extenders for making the NetHack TAS
12:24:41 <ais523> including fixing the emulator so that it could handle at least one of htem
12:25:25 <shachaf> almost no one has haswell so far
12:25:33 <Vorpal> what is new in haswell? Even stupider instruction names?
12:25:49 <shachaf> i hear you should wait until september or so if you want reasonable haswell options
12:25:55 <fizzie> Aren't there some Apples with Haswells?
12:26:00 <elliott> the macbook airs have haswell
12:26:12 <elliott> unfortunately the pros don't, I was hoping to see what the retina would be like with haswell
12:26:21 <elliott> since that could be a pretty compelling option for me
12:26:31 <elliott> wow this system76 clevo is cheap
12:26:47 <shachaf> elliott "the x1 carbon is p. expensive" elliott
12:26:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: Are you saying VPUNPCKHQDQ is a stupid name!
12:27:12 <elliott> it only has 2.0 ghz so it's going to feel very slow no matter how fast it is :'(
12:27:21 <Vorpal> btw, what does that one stand for?
12:27:34 <elliott> help, which kind of SSD is the best
12:27:44 <shachaf> the most expensive one hth
12:27:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I like the Intel 520 SSD at work. 250 GB
12:28:23 <shachaf> Vorpal: vex parallel unpack something something hth
12:28:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, does sandy bridge have that one? I want to test it out
12:28:56 <elliott> 16 gigabytes of RAM and 256 gigabyte SSD and 1 TB HD for $1432...... that's pretty good
12:29:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, to see if it is the right choice for me
12:29:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: V for "vector" (probably), P possibly as a prefix for "packed", then UNPCK for unpack, and HQDQ for "High Quadwords to Double-Quadword".
12:29:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: And no, it was an AVX2 instruction.
12:29:38 <shachaf> fizzie: Doesn't V stand for "three-operand"?
12:29:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: You probably do have the plain PUNPCKHQDQ though.
12:29:59 <fizzie> shachaf: Oh, sure, "thVree-operand", of course.
12:30:13 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VEX_prefix
12:30:15 <Vorpal> elliott, both SSD and HDD? Must be a pretty heavy laptop
12:30:46 <fizzie> shachaf: I still guesstimate that the 'V' in the name originally derives from the word vector.
12:30:50 <shachaf> fizzie: Anyway if PFOO exists in SSE and you have plain old AVX isn't that enough to be able to use VPFOO with SSE registers?
12:30:55 <elliott> Vorpal: 1.72 kg by default apparently
12:30:59 <elliott> Vorpal: default = HD and no SSD
12:31:16 <elliott> doubt the SSD is heavy enough to make the total not light
12:31:31 <fizzie> shachaf: Only the floating-point stuff is in plain old AVX, I think.
12:31:40 <fizzie> shachaf: AVX2 extends to integer datatypes.
12:32:09 <elliott> my current laptop is like uh
12:32:12 <shachaf> fizzie: Yes, but if you just need SSE instructions, i.e. on xmm registers, I think you can use the VEX prefix.
12:32:18 <elliott> so I bet this one would feel super heavy :(
12:33:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I think mine is closer to 2.5 kg or something
12:33:46 <fizzie> shachaf: Look, all I know is that VPUNPCKHQDQ is in http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2011/06/13/haswell-new-instruction-descriptions-now-available
12:34:28 <shachaf> fizzie: Maybe they mean that it works on YMM registers now?
12:34:42 <elliott> shachaf: what is your current laptop
12:35:19 <elliott> i hope the blurriness of the screen in https://c12278716.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/galu1-e791e840dd9d7623d0228ca15867ae74.jpg is just a bad photo
12:35:35 <elliott> oh it's not even blurry there
12:35:40 <elliott> it's just downsized on the web page so it looks blurry?
12:37:22 <shachaf> fizzie: Anyway I could've used AVX2 back when I was writing some SSE code. :-(
12:37:51 <fizzie> "Haswell, will travel."
12:38:40 <shachaf> elliott: anyway tell me if you find a better computer than that one along the relevant axes
12:42:39 <fizzie> ais523: Are there any INTERCAL implementations that use the Haswell PDEP/PEXT instructions for select/mingle?
12:45:30 <ais523> fizzie: not as far as I know
12:45:56 <ais523> perhaps it could be added as an alternative in C-INTERCAL's libick
12:46:10 <ais523> it /would/ be the sort of thing I'd like doing, but I wouldn't be able to test it
12:46:32 <elliott> do you need someone to donate you a haswell computer
12:46:58 <ais523> elliott: if they just donate me a patch, and convincingly claim it works
12:47:11 <elliott> ais523: there are lazy people with money
12:48:50 <ais523> how many of them care about haswell-accelerated INTERCAL, though?
12:49:15 <Vorpal> elliott, seems haswell is less energy efficient than ivy bridge hm
12:49:22 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haswell_(microarchitecture)#Performance
12:49:31 <Vorpal> And harder to overclock
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12:50:07 <elliott> Vorpal: isn't it meant to be much more energy efficient
12:50:36 <Vorpal> Well I don't know, I just pointed you to the source I saw it on. It could be that it is more energy efficient for the given performance
12:51:18 <elliott> not like anyone wants to overclock a laptop anyway
12:51:28 <Vorpal> Yay wikipedia is quoting two sources that are both the same text???
12:51:35 <elliott> The Haswell architecture is specifically designed[5] to optimize the power savings and performance benefits from the move to FinFET transistors on the improved 22 nm process node.[6]
12:52:21 <ais523> Vorpal: probably an attempt by one of them to drive traffic to their site
12:52:22 <elliott> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haswell_Chip.jpg what causes the repeated patterns on chips like these
12:52:28 <elliott> like I assume they're a bunch of duplicates of the same thing?
12:52:49 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't that a waffer with multiple CPUs?
12:52:51 <ais523> elliott: most commonly it's RAM (e.g. L2 cache)
12:52:59 <ais523> if it's a large repeating area
12:53:15 <elliott> unfortunately we will never know because ais523 won't click it :P
12:53:17 <Vorpal> elliott, but inside each CPU there are repeating patterns as well yes
12:53:32 <ais523> although that particular image may just be multiple chips
12:53:37 <elliott> I have a hard time believing the entire CPU is much smaller than a pin
12:53:42 <Vorpal> elliott, well it says waffer in the description below
12:54:16 <ais523> elliott: basically chips have to be that small, a single impurity makes the entire chip unusable
12:54:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I would guess the CPU is about as bit as the pin, that is, the largest scale repeated structure is one CPU each.
12:54:23 <ais523> so they need to make them small to fit between impurities on the wafer
12:55:00 <elliott> Vorpal: well it would be awfully thin if so
12:55:12 <Vorpal> ais523, isn't that the point of three core CPUs? One of the cores had an impurity in it?
12:55:23 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure that is unlikely though
12:55:38 <fizzie> Haswell GT2's die size is listed as 177 square millimetres; that's a 13 mm x 13 mm square, if square.
12:55:50 <ais523> they're failed attempts to make quad core CPUs
12:56:09 <Vorpal> ais523, presumably some of the dual core CPUs are quad cores with two failed cores as well?
12:56:23 <elliott> AMD still does 6-core CPUs right? what's up with that?
12:56:27 <ais523> Vorpal: that's less likely, that'd be rare enough that it wouldn't be worth their time to separate them out and market them
12:56:28 <elliott> 8-core CPUs where two failed??
12:56:30 <ais523> they'd probably be thrown away
12:56:34 <ais523> elliott: they might just be made as 6
12:56:55 <elliott> I guess you don't really get 8 cores on a single CPU much
12:58:02 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway yeah, I suspect within each CPU, there is L2 cache in one area of the chip and then 4 cores, then some shared stuff at the top. That would fit with other (annotated) images I have seen of dies.
12:58:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: The GPU is a big block there too, probably.
12:59:00 <Vorpal> elliott, the bottom part might be cache, then each of the 4 repeated bits could be a core, then at the "top" there is some common bus, power supply, clocks or similar. That is a rough guess.
12:59:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I suggested that above.
12:59:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: The mostly dark-red one, I think, based on the shapes of http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2234017
12:59:48 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway most of a physical CPU's area is just to allow for all the pins at a scale where the pins won't break if you touch them.
13:00:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh okay, so reverse of what I was thinking then
13:00:56 <Vorpal> wait, you said GPU not CPU sorry
13:01:01 <Vorpal> the words, they look similar
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13:04:05 <Vorpal> elliott, that is one reason why the companies try to put more stuff on the CPU (such as GPUs), less pins to go to external locations. (The other reason I can think of is less latency)
13:04:35 <Vorpal> Well that is an effect of less external pins
13:05:42 <Vorpal> SOCs (System-On-a-Chip), such as found in phones, takes that even further, often integrating sound, wifi, bluetooth, DSPs and so on as well.
13:06:35 <Vorpal> The PC is in a bit of a weird spot there, since adding the GPU onto the chip doesn't actually reduce number of pins currently. You still need that PCI express bus anyway.
13:06:53 <Vorpal> So latency would be the primary reason there I assume
13:07:22 <Vorpal> And reduced costs, not having to make separate integrated GPU chipsets (at least for Intel)
13:09:51 <Vorpal> ais523, What is the next step after 22nm?
13:10:15 <Vorpal> Also why did they go for 22 nm rather than 21 or 23? Or maybe 22.5?
13:12:00 <fizzie> 14 nm is the next one.
13:12:59 <fizzie> Then 10, 7 and 5, but that's a bit speculative?
13:13:02 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't really care, I just write compilers that design chips, I don't actually make them
13:13:33 <Vorpal> And still they only recently started taking advantage of 3D structures I believe? Previously it was mostly layered 2D right?
13:14:21 <Vorpal> Wouldn't it be more efficient to design a cubic CPU? That would make the signal paths shorter it seems to me? A bit more complicated cooling though I guess
13:15:10 <fizzie> A "bit" more complicated to manufacture using current lithography techniques, most likely.
13:15:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you even do more than one layer currently?
13:16:28 <Vorpal> Deposit a new layer of silicon on top?
13:17:15 <fizzie> I don't know; another question along the same lines (where the answer is most likely "by being clever") is "how do they draw 20nm lines using light with wavelengths in the hundreds of nm?"
13:17:37 <Vorpal> They use electron beams nowdays iirc?
13:18:17 <fizzie> Well, it *exists*; I don't know what e.g. Intel uses at the moment.
13:18:25 <ais523> well even the really low tech photolithography that schoolchildren use to make PCBs uses ultraviolet
13:18:36 <ais523> that cuts your nanometres down a bit
13:18:38 <fizzie> "Intel has already outlined a path to use 193 nm immersion lithography down to 11 nm node" that's still light.
13:19:11 <fizzie> ("Immersion lithography is a photolithography resolution enhancement technique for manufacturing integrated circuits (ICs) that replaces the usual air gap between the final lens and the wafer surface with a liquid medium that has a refractive index greater than one. The resolution is increased by a factor equal to the refractive index of the liquid.")
13:19:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I know they use double masking. Where they first use one mask then switch to another offset mask.
13:20:52 <fizzie> "Extreme ultraviolet lithography" has the greatest name.
13:20:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-dimensional_integrated_circuit
13:21:08 <Vorpal> Seems like it is in the works
13:21:34 <fizzie> Well, they have to do something.
13:22:10 <Vorpal> More cores? More optimised instructions? There are lots of way to continue increasing performance in the future
13:22:46 <Vorpal> Maybe an FPGA section of the chip that could be optimised for each application
13:24:16 <fizzie> Apparently Intel has done some forays to the EUL direction.
13:24:38 <Vorpal> oh, Extreme ultraviolet lithography?
13:25:08 <Vorpal> Isn't that into xrays already?
13:25:25 <Vorpal> "Extreme ultraviolet lithography (also known as EUV or EUVL) is a next-generation lithography technology using an extreme ultraviolet (EUV) wavelength, currently expected to be 13.5 nm."
13:25:45 <fizzie> Apparently it's still ultraviolet down to 10 nm.
13:25:54 <fizzie> Then x-rays from 10 to 0.1.
13:26:30 <fizzie> "The Intel Lithography Roadmap" requires a login. I wonder if I have an Intel account.
13:27:06 <ais523> why would a lithography roadmap require a login?
13:27:50 <fizzie> ais523: http://noggin.intel.com/content/the-intel-lithography-roadmap -> click link -> "To access this additional content, you must first log in. If you haven't yet registered, please sign up. It's quick, it's free, it's easy!"
13:27:59 <fizzie> I guess that's not an answer to the "why".
13:28:10 <ais523> yeah, that's merely a statement that the roadmap requires a login
13:28:21 <fizzie> "Lithography technologies, such as 193nm, 157nm, and EUV lithography, which have benefited from Intel investment, have gained industry acceptance, while competing technologies, such as x-ray lithography, are no longer being pursued."
13:28:26 <fizzie> I like the way they put it.
13:28:40 <elliott> fizzie: how good is the clevo's touchpad :P
13:28:46 <fizzie> elliott: I think it's p. standard.
13:29:44 <shachaf> ive never met a touchpad i didnt dislike.....
13:30:45 <Vorpal> Same, go for trackpoints.
13:31:13 <ais523> fizzie: that's a pretty evasive way to praise themeselves
13:31:43 <ais523> like, I'd be surprised if there were any ASIC manufacturing technologies that Intel hadn't put at least a bit of money into determining how well they worked
13:34:39 <fizzie> I think it sounds more like a threat. "Nice lithography technology you've got here. Would be shame if something happened to it, and it was no longer pursued."
13:35:09 <fizzie> Except they're the ones giving the money instead of getting it.
13:36:14 <Vorpal> Is there actually any sharp difference between 11 nm UV and 10 nm x-ray?
13:36:27 <Vorpal> It sounds more like an arbitrary line
13:36:44 <fizzie> There's a one nanometer difference hth
13:36:50 <fizzie> "That's pretty sharp."
13:37:04 <ais523> I think most of the distinctions between different sorts of light are pretty arbitrary
13:37:13 <ais523> even visible, because not everyone's eyes are identical
13:41:59 <fizzie> "Note that there are no precisely defined boundaries between the bands of the electromagnetic spectrum; rather they fade into each other like the bands in a rainbow (which is the sub-spectrum of visible light)." Some Wikipedia editor's being very poetic there.
13:42:07 <fizzie> (I was looking for standard definitions.)
13:43:59 <fizzie> ITU apparently has standard names, numbers and frequency boundaries for things that can be called radio, from EHF to ELF, but don't extend outside those bounds.
13:48:06 <fizzie> Oh, the low-frequency end only starts from ULF, officially. (It goes ULF, VLF, LF, MF, HF, VHF, UHF, SHF and EHF.)
13:48:45 <fizzie> Wait, no; there is ELF, but it's four bands wide, and in a separate table; and SLF is missing. Way to be logical, guys.
13:49:08 <ais523> I thought ELF was an executable format
13:50:26 <shachaf> Ultra-Linkable Format, Very Linkable Format, Linkable Format, ...
13:50:47 <fizzie> The Super-Linkable format is missing.
13:51:00 <fizzie> Fortunately, the Extremely Linkable Format is objectively better.
13:51:01 <ion> High Frequency, Very High Frequency, Unusually High Frequency, Surprisingly High Frequency, Excessively High Frequency
13:52:47 <fizzie> ion: Apparently some authors[1] use THF for "Tremendously High Frequency".
13:52:56 <fizzie> Your names fit that pretty well.
13:53:10 <fizzie> [1] Tanenbaum, Andrew (2002). Computer Networks. page 101: Prentice Hall. p. 912. ISBN 978-0-13-066102-9.
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14:03:28 <Vorpal> Someone should figure out a way to take photos in radio wavelengths. I want to look what it looks like when I stand in front of a wifi router.
14:05:32 <ais523> Vorpal: I imagine it'd look much the same as taking a photo of a lightbulb
14:06:03 <ais523> routers don't send signals that turn corners for the same reason that lasers don't shoot out light sideways in real life, like they do in films
14:06:11 <Vorpal> Hm, surely I wouldn't be completely invisible?
14:06:25 <ais523> oh, I thought you were taking a photo of it
14:06:33 <ais523> rather than someone taking a photo of you next to it
14:06:38 <ais523> yeah, you'd probably be at least slightly visible
14:06:40 <Vorpal> ais523, me standing in between camera and the router
14:06:44 <ais523> although human bodies don't block radio waves very well
14:07:03 <ais523> (this is part of the reason radio is used for communication)
14:07:31 <Vorpal> Most of the world would be transparent. That would be pretty cool I think
14:07:51 <Vorpal> Well not fully transparent
14:08:31 <ais523> hmm, I imagine the main technical obstacle to building a camera like that is that it would have to be tens of metres across, or perhaps more depending on the wavelength
14:11:22 <Vorpal> Hm, reading up on MIMO (curse you wikipedia, I started out reading about lithography and ended up at MIMO...). That is pretty clever.
14:15:15 <Vorpal> If antennas length need to match the wavelength, why does normal FM radio work? You can just turn a dial or press a few buttons, and it doesn't extend or retract the antenna afaik.
14:19:22 <ais523> Vorpal: it doesn't need to match exactly; it works better the closer the match is
14:19:33 <ais523> but it'll still work at non-100% efficiency if the match isn't perfect
14:19:41 <ais523> you get some of the signal reflecting rather than being transmitted
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14:45:31 <nortti> @tell oerjan < oerjan> was that command ever intended to have a useful purpose? <-- no
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14:55:48 <HackEgo> olist (899): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
14:55:57 <shachaf> Oh, I bet oerjan joined to tell me.
14:56:27 <shachaf> hmm i bet 900 will be big and important??
14:56:58 <oerjan> um were previous round numbers important?
14:57:35 <shachaf> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html looks kind of important i guess
14:58:19 <ais523> well, given what happened in 898
14:58:23 <ais523> it's probably the end of the story arc
14:58:47 <shachaf> Do you want to be added to the list?
14:59:00 <ais523> shachaf: nah, I just check manually from time to time
14:59:10 <ais523> I have no particular reason to have up-to-the-minute updates
14:59:14 <ais523> given that it updates kind-of slowly anyway
14:59:19 <ais523> also that I'm often not in the channel
14:59:46 <ais523> and I'm often offline even when I'm not in the channel
15:00:01 <shachaf> You were gone for so long that the channel sprouted some new ops.
15:01:08 <ais523> I'm probably going to leave again tbf, except perhaps when something new happens that I care about talking about
15:02:07 <shachaf> Well, it's nice having you here, when you're here.
15:27:35 <fizzie> Re "photos in radio wavelengths", there's a couple of cameras that take "photos" of sound -- http://phys.org/news/2013-05-world-handheld-camera-ready.html and the like.
15:30:55 <oerjan> if an NFS mount gets so broken that you cannot even kill -9 processes trying to access it, must a linux machine then be rebooted?
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15:31:21 <fizzie> You should fix the NFS server and hope it recovers hth
15:31:47 <oerjan> well the thing is the _server_ is fine, it's the client which has problems :P
15:33:02 <oerjan> also it's not actually me who is administrating this, i'm just wondering if i can expect to get kicked off when they fix it.
15:34:15 <oerjan> by the server is fine i mean that i can access my mail inbox fine from a third machine.
15:36:23 <fizzie> That doesn't really guaratee the health of the NFS service operating on it, though. (I think in most cases rebootless fixes should be possible.)
15:37:15 <oerjan> (the third machine also accesses via NFS, of course)
15:37:59 <fizzie> (Or "non-fixes" of the kind of "let the process stay dead, lazy-unmount the broken NFS mount, and wait for the next scheduled reboot for a more permanent solution".)
15:39:21 <oerjan> as long as they can remount a second time...
15:39:39 <oerjan> otherwise no one can access mail from this machine.
15:43:15 <fizzie> A lazy umount just removes the mount from the filesystem tree; it shouldn't be a problem mounting something working in its place, unless of course the NFS client code makes that a problem.
15:45:25 <fizzie> The NFS hangups I've seen at work lately have ended at I/O errors in the process (in a reasonable time; not days) -- possibly corresponding to people doing something to the server. But I don't admin those either.
15:48:08 <oerjan> i suppose there may not be any admins active at the moment. yesterday there was a different but probably related problem and i quickly got an email back.
15:48:43 <kmc> elliott: yes, the X1 Carbon is nice, I can talk about its strengths and weaknesses if you like
15:51:10 <elliott> kmc: sounds good! I am really tired but if you have a monologue I will read it and I might have more questions tomorrow
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16:00:52 <oerjan> ais523: i haven't read all the logs yet, but it looks to me like your concurrency primitive should be trivial to implement in haskell
16:01:22 <ais523> oerjan: I'd like to see the impl; also I don't know how concurrency works in Haskell, which is part of the reason I wouldn't try to work it out myself
16:03:28 <oerjan> oh except for one thing, it definitely cannot be pure, you'd want to allocate an MVar to communicate between invocations.
16:04:18 <elliott> kmc: alt. we can do it tomorrow
16:07:44 <shachaf> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
16:17:46 <Vorpal> Urgh, lame doesn't take flac as input. Now what? (No I can't use ogg here, the device I need to put this on only supports mp3)
16:18:34 <Jafet> Insert lame pun here
16:20:07 <elliott> Vorpal: flac --decode --stdout foo.flac | lame --preset standard /dev/stdin ... or whatever
16:20:10 <elliott> maybe you need a temp file
16:20:34 <Vorpal> What does flac --decode output? PCM?
16:21:43 <Deewiant> ffmpeg -i foo.flac -o foo.mp3 or whatever
16:22:33 <Vorpal> elliott, lame --help says - will work for stdin so that should be good
16:22:44 <Vorpal> Deewiant, Is that better than lame?
16:24:31 <Vorpal> for i in *.flac; do flac --decode --stdout "$i" | lame --preset extreme - "${i/.flac/}.mp3"; done <-- this should work right? Not sure about that /.flac/ syntax, but I think it is correct?
16:25:12 <Vorpal> except this takes ages, how to parallelize? I usually use xargs -P
16:25:33 <elliott> there's that GNU parallel thing.
16:25:50 <elliott> btw, --preset extreme is overkill.
16:25:53 <Vorpal> Hm, yeah doing this with xargs would be complicated, maybe through a sh call
16:26:06 <Vorpal> elliott, anything between standard and extreme?
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16:26:40 <fizzie> Deewiant: But ffmpeg is deprecated!1
16:26:54 <elliott> uh, I don't think so. but I really doubt standard fails to be transparent on non-pathological examples without equally pathological listening conditions
16:27:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: The command-line tool, I mean; tou're supposed to use "avconv" these days.
16:27:30 <elliott> it's like 190 kbps and LAME is p. good at encoding
16:27:45 <elliott> fizzie: did the original ffmpeg project give up or is it still a hostile fork situation?
16:28:01 <fizzie> See: http://sprunge.us/TbBh
16:28:19 <fizzie> And I think avconv's part of the official ffmpeg now, or something. I haven't really been following.
16:29:24 <fizzie> I guess it's a "libav" thing, mhmm.
16:29:28 <Deewiant> ffmpeg 0.10's changelog from 2012 says "
16:29:29 <Deewiant> all features from avconv merged into ffmpeg"
16:31:40 <fizzie> Okay, I guess you shouldn't be using avconv if your libavcodec and friends comes from FFmpeg and not libav.
16:31:47 <fizzie> I'm glad it's not confusing or anything.
16:33:50 <elliott> http://blog.pkh.me/p/13-the-ffmpeg-libav-situation.html
16:34:40 <kmc> elliott: so the main good things are, it's thin, light, and has a screen with a not embarassingly low resolution
16:34:57 <kmc> (1600x900 while the other ultraportable thinkpads are 1366x768)
16:35:33 <kmc> battery life is fine (I get about 5 hours in a moderately tuned Linux system) but the battery charges really quickly, which is nice
16:35:56 <kmc> like it will charge from 20% to 80% in 30 min or so
16:35:58 <elliott> (includes stuff about the deprecation warning)
16:36:04 <fizzie> "-- a FFmpeg/Libav war child --"
16:36:12 <fizzie> A tragedy. I shed a tear.
16:36:16 <kmc> I hear there are Ivy Bridge power management improvements in Linux 3.10 and I should try that
16:36:44 <kmc> also it suspends and resumes from RAM *really* fast
16:36:50 <kmc> like resume takes 1 second before the machine is completely usable again
16:37:04 <kmc> there's no reason why suspend to RAM should be slow, but it's always been a bit slower on other thinkpads i've owned
16:38:08 <Vorpal> WARNING: gnome-keyring:: couldn't connect to: /home/arvid/.cache/keyring-cU64W7/pkcs11: No such file or directory
16:38:21 <Vorpal> Why is ffmpeg doing that?!
16:39:40 <elliott> kmc: do you have any idea if it might be getting Haswell any time soon
16:40:03 <kmc> i'm no expert on lenovo kremlinology
16:40:12 <kmc> I couldn't even get a straight answer as to when the i7/8GB model would be available
16:40:34 <Vorpal> kmc, is it not possible to add a few extra RAM modules yourself?
16:40:45 <elliott> kmc: I think you can get i7 + 8GB now
16:40:45 <kmc> it's an "ultrabook", RAM is soldered on
16:40:58 <Vorpal> kmc, yet another reason to go for normal laptops
16:41:13 <kmc> itt Vorpal and I have different utility functions
16:41:15 <elliott> have to admit I fail to see the reasoning here
16:41:16 <kmc> elliott: yeah, also there's a touch version now
16:41:35 <kmc> so yeah, you can't upgrade the RAM
16:41:40 <elliott> "you can't get 8 gigs of RAM so you should get a machine that is worse at doing what it's for in every respect other than it happens to have 8 gigs of RAM"
16:41:48 <kmc> except I have 8 gigs of RAM!!
16:41:52 <kmc> but I wish I had 16 :(
16:41:55 <kmc> you maybe can't remove the SSD either; I need to try that
16:42:07 <kmc> in the past the ability to quickly remove the hdd from thinkpads has been very useful in disaster type situations
16:42:22 <kmc> I've heard the SSD is a mSATA card but I've also heard otherwise
16:42:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I like having the ability to extend the hardware easily as my needs changes.
16:42:54 <elliott> kmc: yes my main misgivings look like (a) no quad core (solved by haswell??) (b) intel graphics (made less bad by haswell??) (c) 8 gigs of ram limit
16:43:02 <kmc> seems reasonable
16:43:02 <elliott> (d) the screen could do with being even higher-resolution...... :(
16:43:13 <kmc> yeah there will probably be a 'retina' version someday
16:43:21 <kmc> you could get a chromebook pixel instead ;P
16:43:27 <kmc> or I think samsung has a high dpi laptop too now
16:43:40 <Vorpal> kmc, on my thinkpad I only need to remove a single screw to change the HDD. I need to remove 4 to reach the RAM modules.
16:43:44 <elliott> I am also looking at https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/galu1 because of shachaf
16:43:53 <kmc> Vorpal: yes I have owned thinkpads before as well
16:44:02 <Vorpal> kmc, Anyway should my ram break I can replace it. Couldn't if it was soldered on.
16:44:10 <kmc> have you ever had RAM break
16:44:17 <elliott> for which my main misgiving is whether the touchpad is any good
16:44:21 <fizzie> Fiora: I interpreted that as "I have 32 Thinkpads".
16:44:30 <elliott> (and whether iris pro is actually decent enough)
16:44:32 <Vorpal> kmc, Not for ages. (Early 2000s iirc)
16:44:34 <kmc> other issues: Linux hardware support isn't *quite* there yet. it's mostly fine, but occasionally sound freaks out, this can usually be fixed by removing and reinstalling the kernel module, but not always
16:44:46 <kmc> I've occasionally had similar issues with wireless too
16:45:00 <kmc> neither is frequent enough to really be annoying
16:45:22 <kmc> I wonder if I can keep listing drawbacks of this machine without Vorpal assuming that I'm a dumbass who didn't know these things when I bought it
16:45:38 <kmc> and listing irrelevant facts at me
16:45:39 <elliott> Fiora: how much have you actually managed to use
16:45:44 <Vorpal> kmc, I'm not assuming you are a dumbass :P
16:45:44 <elliott> I mean ignoring disk caches and stuff
16:46:14 <Vorpal> And finding out linux hw support in advance tends to be rather hit or miss I found.
16:46:34 <elliott> kmc: don't forget to mention the keyboard
16:46:36 <kmc> elliott: also it takes a different power adapter plug than other thinkpads :( (the standard round barrel is too thick for the case)
16:46:52 <elliott> well I don't have any thinkpads and never have so that's not really a concern at least :P
16:47:00 <Fiora> elliott: um... I think I probably use like up to 2 or 3 GB for a game? plus a few gigs for other things so probably like 8-10
16:47:02 <kmc> I had quite an investment in old-style power adapters
16:47:10 <Fiora> the disk cache is nice though! albeit not quite as useful with an SSD
16:47:28 <Fiora> oh right! when I was playing around with ECM factoring I got to use 23 GB and actually ran out? xD
16:47:38 <FreeFull> kmc: Do you do any programming?
16:47:42 <kmc> also there's no onboard Ethernet; it ships with a USB Ethernet adapter that is only supported by recent-ish Linux (see http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/12/hex-editing-linux-kernel-modules-to.html)
16:47:52 <elliott> I could probably use 32 GB just by compiling enough Haskell packages in parallel I guess
16:47:58 <kmc> FreeFull: what, do you mean "do i do any work instead of hanging out on IRC all day"
16:48:15 <kmc> I have a meeting in 10 min
16:48:23 <kmc> but yes I did write code yesterday
16:48:28 <elliott> "how is your IRC performance"
16:48:29 <fizzie> Incidentally, do you have to give Kensington® some money if you put a Kensington® hole® in your thing?
16:48:35 <elliott> "have you sold any ThinkPads lately"
16:48:39 <elliott> "are they believing your Mozilla cover story"
16:48:49 <FreeFull> kmc: You could take a look at the driver code and fix it once and for all
16:48:50 <Vorpal> <Fiora> elliott: um... I think I probably use like up to 2 or 3 GB for a game? plus a few gigs for other things so probably like 8-10 <-- I mainly found that I use my 16 GB of RAM for running hundreds of chrome tabs.
16:49:01 <kmc> elliott: also the only video port is Mini DisplayPort; if you want VGA or DVI or HDMI you need an adapter as well, and that one is not included
16:49:08 <Vorpal> Also the occasional game, minecraft with mods especially.
16:49:27 <Vorpal> And of course panorama stitching, but that is not a very common activity.
16:49:35 <fizzie> I mainly use the 16 gigs at work to hold large matrices.
16:49:44 <FreeFull> Vorpal: I have hundreds of tabs open regularly in Firefox, and it doesn't take anywhere near that much RAM
16:49:53 <kmc> FreeFull: oh also my code was building, that's my other excuse
16:49:59 <fizzie> Just Gaussian random data if I can't figure out what else to put there! (Not really.)
16:50:04 <elliott> kmc: have you added any code yet
16:50:08 <Vorpal> FreeFull, well of course chrome doesn't take it all. Usually about 1 GB total as far as I can tell.
16:50:13 <FreeFull> fizzie: I hope your matrix multiplication algorithm has good cache locality
16:50:16 <Vorpal> FreeFull, but it gives room for still doing other stuff
16:50:44 <kmc> elliott: https://github.com/mozilla/servo/commit/9f6de7e5e30ff84bbe04d22c04a22fa33e4aa8e7 https://github.com/mozilla/servo/commit/cfffd0542404b60923f3f524f5144693d9b89f00 v. important changes
16:50:47 <fizzie> FreeFull: It's MATLAB's matrix multiplication algorithm, I'm sure it has all the good things and none of the bad things; I mean, MATLAB. It's got MAT right in the name.
16:50:53 <FreeFull> The only benefit I would have from 16GB would be more filesystem cache
16:51:14 <kmc> it's amazing how quickly n+1 browser tabs can eat up 8 GB
16:51:15 <FreeFull> I wonder what you need matrices that big for
16:51:31 <elliott> kmc: those both look more like removing code to me
16:51:31 <kmc> Rodina MAT
16:51:36 <kmc> elliott: yes isn't it great
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16:51:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that the "brand" of the holes?
16:51:54 <elliott> go write some hacks to handle awful CSS edge-cases
16:52:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: Officially it's a "Kensington Security Slot", I think.
16:52:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, I never seen a Kensington lock, I only ever seen other brands that fit the same hole.
16:52:34 <elliott> "Address pcwalton's comments" "Address pcwalton's nits" wow pcwalton, give em a break
16:52:46 <fizzie> I've only seen the holes. Well, I guess I've seen a couple of locks at stores and so on, don't know which brand.
16:53:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, we have locks at work.
16:54:18 <Vorpal> Some no-name brand lock I believe. Not that we need it. Just a general company laptop security policy.
16:54:49 <fizzie> FreeFull: Well, you know... so many things are en-squared. If you have a 30k-dimensional vectors and ask for something that wants to make a covariance matrix, that's 30000 x 30000 = 900 million 8-byte floats = 6.7 gigs right there.
16:56:21 <FreeFull> Now I'm wondering where you need 30k-dimensional vectors
16:56:44 <elliott> finns live in a 30k-dimensional universe
16:56:54 <elliott> this is how fizzie plans his commute
16:58:01 <FreeFull> fizzie: At least you don't have to calculate a 30k x 30k x 30k tensor, then you'd never have enough RAM =P
16:58:42 <fizzie> FreeFull: Activation vectors for a 30k-element dictionary of atoms hth
17:00:57 <fizzie> FreeFull: Also sometimes you have 30k 39-dimensional vectors and accidentally give it to the function transposed, because half the functions expect observations in column vectors and other half in row vectors. (The truth comes out.)
17:01:28 <FreeFull> fizzie: Oh, you're doing a physics simulation?
17:01:44 <elliott> fizzie: it's ok to admit finns live in a bizarre and disorienting world, incomprehensible to all outsiders.
17:01:47 <elliott> I mean, we already know that
17:02:03 <fizzie> You know all those dimensions from string theory? Yeah, they've all curled up in Finland.
17:02:49 <fizzie> (Also I don't really do physics simulations, I just like to refer to audio frames as "observations".)
17:08:45 <FreeFull> Wait, 30000 x 30000 matrices for audio? Just what are you doing?
17:20:14 <fizzie> As I mentioned, activations for a 30k element dictionary of "exemplars".
17:20:36 <fizzie> It's a source separation thingie based on a NMF decomposition.
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18:03:05 <Gracenotes> hm. I went to bed at a reasonable time, but only properly woke up just now
18:03:31 <kmc> did you improperly wake up before that?
18:03:49 <Fiora> oddly enough elliott just went to sleep
18:04:36 <Gracenotes> then I had increasingly weird REM half-sleeps
18:04:51 <Gracenotes> so I suppose it's not like I was getting actual rest out of that
18:11:44 <fizzie> Fiora: Have you installed a small spy camera in elliott's room? (Clearly the most likely conclusion.)
18:14:30 <Deewiant> Occam's razor suggests that assuming it's small is superfluous
18:14:36 <Fiora> I was talking with him -_-
18:15:08 <fizzie> I think that's just a cover story.
18:15:51 <Fiora> he's a cutiepants okay I can't help it
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18:26:56 <kmc> tricked again by /bin/sh -> /bin/dash
18:32:10 <kmc> static THROBBER: [char, ..8] = [ '⣾', '⣽', '⣻', '⢿', '⡿', '⣟', '⣯', '⣷' ];
18:34:22 <kmc> I didn't realize where those characters are from but it should have been obvious really
18:41:52 <ion> I bet blind people get totally confused when reading the output from that software.
18:43:39 <fizzie> I bet it looks fancy as anything, though.
18:43:50 <Gracenotes> there are fancy devices that do dynamic embossing, but that seems no harder to do with plain letters.
18:44:58 <Gracenotes> people who use Braille likely know ASCII better than any of us not from the punchcard era
18:45:00 <fizzie> Also, what *is* that from? Isn't Braille just three rows?
18:45:22 <nooodl> super cool extended braille isn't
18:51:25 <nooodl> > text [chr $ ord '⣟' Data.Bits..&. ord '⣾']
18:52:19 <kmc> the Debian installer has lots of support for braille ttys, also for speech synthesis of the menus
18:52:22 <kmc> pretty cool
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18:59:01 <fizzie> > text [chr $ ord '⣟' `xor` ord '⣾'] -- less cute
18:59:17 <fizzie> They should've put that stuff right at the beginning of Unicode, for cuteness.
19:00:33 <Bike> blind superiority
19:00:43 <fizzie> > text [chr $ ord '⠀' + (ord '⣟' `xor` ord '⣾')] -- magic space fix
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19:03:50 <fizzie> lambdabot: You could've done a little more than that.
19:03:56 <kmc> clearly we should use these as a text transport for binary data
19:04:04 <lambdabot> "\10240\10241\10242\10243\10244\10245\10246\10247\10248\10249\10250\10251\1...
19:04:12 <kmc> 8 bits each right?
19:04:14 <fizzie> (The multiline query version looked nice.)
19:04:22 <kmc> are some combos verboten
19:04:33 <kmc> btw today is free slurpee day at 7-Eleven
19:04:36 <kmc> maybe only in the USA
19:04:50 <fizzie> AIUI, there's quite a few Braille variants, esp. concerning the 8-cell versions.
19:04:58 <fizzie> But Unicode has the whole set of symbols.
19:05:02 <kmc> the reason: date +%m-%d
19:06:30 <fizzie> There are no 7-Elevens in Finland.
19:07:02 <fizzie> (There are some in Denmark, Norway and Sweden, which I don't think is entirely fair.)
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19:09:56 <fizzie> Ohh, the Steam Summer Sale. So that's why everyone's[weasel words][dubious - discuss] talking about Steam, and it's down.
19:10:55 <fizzie> That would be Tal... right
19:11:27 <fizzie> I'm not even mentioned at Talk:Bath bomb, and Talk:Bath fizzie is a redlink. :/
19:11:49 <fizzie> [[ "Wave 4" was released in August 2005, and it included Bertie, Purkle, Spangle, Dilly, Skinker, and Fizzie. ]]
19:11:57 <fizzie> In good company, I'd say?
19:12:18 <fizzie> But "Bath fizzie" isn't a redirect.
19:12:30 <Gracenotes> or there was some mess with exchanging articles, redirects, and disambiguation pages, and the talk pages went along for the ride
19:12:38 <fizzie> It's a really kinda weird article instead, and completely different than the Bath bomb one.
19:12:57 <fizzie> I think perhaps written by a chemist, or something.
19:13:02 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
19:13:30 <fizzie> "-- designed to effervesce in personal bath water -- amorphous grains of homogeneous mixture -- solid boluses of homogeneous or inhomogeneous mixture -- ingredients must include one or more acid(s) and one or more water-soluble bicarbonate, sesquicarbonate, and/or carbonate -- other water-soluble, water-dispersible, and/or volatile ingredients --"
19:13:33 <Gracenotes> oh. slap a merge tag on it, or something.
19:13:50 <fizzie> What, me, edit Wikipedia? I'm not one of those guys.
19:14:24 <fizzie> Did you know that: In principle a fizzie could release phosphoric anhydride gas, but the release of gas from phosphate salts is so slow that any phosphates present in either beverage or bath fizzies are for other purposes.
19:14:55 <fizzie> In practice, I only release phosphoric anhydride gas after very specific meals.
19:15:32 <fizzie> (There's also gratuitous use of bold.)
19:15:46 <Gracenotes> Is it you who releases it or intestinal bacteria?
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19:41:04 <Vorpal> Oh god, a full screen installer with a blue gradient background. This is old!
19:41:12 <Vorpal> Why did they ever do that btw?
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19:44:57 <ion> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=322255
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19:53:51 <ion> http://www.imdb.com/media/rm465020160/tt2724064?ref_=butt
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20:12:31 <tswett> Okay, I wonder if all you wonderful people can help me with a problem I'm facing.
20:12:41 -!- variable has changed nick to function.
20:12:44 <tswett> So I want to store a directed acyclic graph in a database.
20:13:21 <tswett> Whenever I try to add a new edge to the graph, I first look up all paths that would create a cycle with that edge.
20:13:30 <tswett> Meaning that I have a table containing all paths.
20:13:56 <tswett> The table has three columns: "head", which is the first edge in the graph; "last", which is the last; and "tail", which is a reference to the tail of the path.
20:14:46 <tswett> So the path table forms a tree.
20:16:01 <tswett> Whenever I add a new edge, I need to add new paths containing that edge. But I can't figure out a good way to do that.
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20:18:16 <Fiora> all paths? isn't that an exponential number?
20:18:43 <Fiora> eesh, that sounds painful
20:18:46 <tswett> I guess the algorithm is reasonably straightforward, now that I think of it.
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20:19:03 <Fiora> maybe it would be better to have some storage method that doesn't involve exponential space <.<
20:19:06 <tswett> Start with a list of all relevant paths already in the database, then just recursively extend them backwards.
20:19:11 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan.
20:19:15 <tswett> If performance gets to be an issue, I'll rethink stuff.
20:21:10 <oerjan> if anyone spoke to me in privmsg in about the last 2 hours, my nick has been a ghost
20:21:32 <kmc> tswett: you look for paths that would create a cycle just to throw an error if you find one, or for some other reason?
20:21:44 <kmc> if you just want to know "would this new edge form a cycle" then there are simpler data structures you can use
20:22:13 <tswett> kmc: for some other reason. I need to do something with every edge in the cycle.
20:22:29 <tswett> And then delete one of the edges.
20:24:04 <oerjan> isn't hpaste.org alive any more?
20:24:42 <Fiora> might it not be a little less exponential to like, store the results of an all-pairs shortest path thing?
20:24:50 <Fiora> I think that's N^2 if you do it the dynamic programmy way
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20:25:57 <tswett> Fiora: well, adding a single edge could create exponentially many cycles, and I could potentially want to operate on all of them.
20:26:41 <tswett> So whatever method I use needs to be able to tell me about all of those cycles.
20:27:14 <Fiora> yeah, but like, you can have exponentially many *paths* without having exponentially many cycles
20:27:58 <Fiora> how do you distinguish different cycles? like what counts as two different cycles
20:28:32 <Bike> made up of different vertices?
20:28:38 <Fiora> like if A->B, B->C, B->D, C->A, and D->A, is A->B->C->A and A->B->D->A two different cycles?
20:28:57 <Bike> i would think so...
20:29:34 <Bike> why wouldn't they be?
20:31:05 <Fiora> actually um. that's a question if you have a directed acyclic graph with V vertices and E edges, what's the maximum number of cycles adding an edge could create...
20:32:21 <quintopia> Fiora: it should be maximized by adding the final mossing edge to make a complete graph
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20:36:04 <Fiora> could such a graph have no cycles?
20:36:32 <Fiora> http://i.imgur.com/BbPmpQi.png here's an example I was thinking of... I guess this example does create an exponential number of cycles
20:36:40 <Fiora> (red is the new edge)
20:36:57 <Fiora> as the number of vertex in the diamond gets larger, I think the number of cycles approaches 2^V?
20:37:06 <Fiora> since like, there's a branching factor of 2
20:38:20 <quintopia> i know some people who were working on problems of graphs like this
20:39:45 <quintopia> the branching factor is 2 for the bottom half, but maybe no be on the top half. the actual number of paths is given by a nice recurrence relation i think
20:40:42 <kmc> https://github.com/mozilla/rust/issues/7048
20:40:52 <fizzie> I think the recurrence relation will involve a two times something n-1.
20:43:25 <fizzie> (Intuitively speaking, the paths after going left first + the paths after going right first, which look like they'd be smaller semi-diamond-like graphs.)
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20:45:10 <kmc> hpaste is down :/
20:45:14 <kmc> need to link some amusing things from there
20:46:36 <fizzie> (#paths(n) = f(n,n) where f(n,m) = f(n-1,m) + f(m,n-1); add some base cases and solve; and the n in #paths(n) is sqrt(V). Or some-such.)
20:47:03 <fizzie> FreeFull: Does lpaste have hpaste pastes?
20:47:49 <FreeFull> http://lpaste.net/1 dated 2008
20:48:26 <FreeFull> fizzie: I think it actually is hpaste
20:48:32 <FreeFull> Just with a different name and domain
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20:51:55 <fizzie> http://oeis.org/A000984 is the number of paths for a diamond with edge size (number of vertices) of n, I think. (I might have gotten that all wrong.)
20:53:11 <fizzie> The comments seem to bear it out. E.g. "Number of possible values of a 2*n bit binary number for which half the bits are on" aka "number of ways you can take left and right paths to end up at the top of the diamond".
20:54:28 <fizzie> ("The number of lattice paths from (0,0) to (n,n) using steps (1,0) and (0,1)" is even closer.)
20:57:24 <Bike> isn't that exactly the same
20:57:45 <fizzie> They're comments for the same sequence, of course they're exactly the same.
20:58:08 <fizzie> I just meant "closer to Fiora's Diamond™".
20:59:00 <Bike> i meant the number of lattice paths is the same as paths in the diamond
20:59:39 <fizzie> I mean, it was supposed to be, too.
21:06:20 <Fiora> I guess you could just chop off the top half of the diamond and have everything connect to one top point
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21:16:05 <fizzie> That'd be, what, 2^n paths, with V = n*(1+n)/2?
21:18:08 <fizzie> (I guess +1 for the star at the top.)
21:20:30 <shachaf> kmc: hpaste is up, it's just the domain.
21:20:32 <lambdabot> http://paste.tryhaskell.org/new/haskell
21:21:04 <shachaf> Oh, lpaste is the same thing now.
21:25:12 <quintopia> i'm glad to see fizzie figured out the same recurrence i did while i was in the shower :D
21:26:41 <shachaf> did elliott decide on a laptop
21:26:52 <Fiora> he's asleep right now, I think
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21:29:44 <quintopia> The number of direct routes from my home to Granny's when
21:29:44 <quintopia> Granny lives n blocks south and n blocks east of my home
21:29:44 <quintopia> in Grid City. To obtain a direct route, from the 2n
21:29:44 <quintopia> blocks, choose n blocks on which one travels south. For
21:29:45 <fizzie> Maybe that's just what he wants us to think?
21:29:46 <quintopia> example, a(2)=6 because there are 6 direct routes
21:29:56 <quintopia> i wish i had thought of that solution
21:30:06 <quintopia> geez it's so obvious in retrospect
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21:33:37 <fizzie> Finding Granny: so easy, a pushdown automaton could do it.
21:34:32 <FreeFull> I wonder what sort of space you get if you add diagonal paths
21:35:35 <FreeFull> Since it wouldn't be taxicab space anymore
21:36:08 <fizzie> For the southeast? Isn't that just +f(n-1,m-1)?
21:38:53 <fizzie> http://oeis.org/A001850 and so on.
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21:56:12 <fizzie> (The general taxicab-with-diagonals distance is called Chebyshev distance, or chessboard distance (king moves), or maximum metric (from D(a,b) = max_i |a_i - b_i|), or probably by some further names.)
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22:02:12 <FreeFull> I remember looking at it earlier but I forgot about it
22:03:42 <FreeFull> Seems Chebyshev and Taxicab metrics are duals of each other or something
22:04:22 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
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22:09:21 <kmc> shachaf: one cool thing in Rust is that you can put debug print statements all over your code, and then enable them at runtime with an env var
22:09:34 <kmc> and you can do this on a per-module basis, without needing to reiterate the name of the module on each print statement
22:09:49 <kmc> I feel like a lot of languages should have this, but I don't think I've seen it before
22:10:28 <FreeFull> kmc: So it's like assert in C but for printing?
22:11:00 <Bike> it's a debug print statement, haven't you seen those before
22:11:33 <FreeFull> Bike: kmc's point is that they are always in the code, but only turn on when compiling with debugging
22:11:35 <kmc> not ones where you leave them in and then you say "enable debug printing for module foo:bar" at runtime
22:11:41 <kmc> FreeFull: no do pay attention please
22:11:47 <kmc> > enable them at runtime with an env var
22:11:48 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `enable'Not in scope: `them'Not in scope: `runtime'Not in sco...
22:11:58 <Bike> that's what you get for 4chanquoting.
22:12:13 <FreeFull> Bike: That quote style is much older than 4chan
22:12:13 <Bike> These pens are not for everyone. They are pens that are for people that appreciate quality and are willing to spend a little extra on having something that is fairly unique. EiMIM stands for Everything in Moderation, Including Moderation. Most of the time I try to keep things as simple as possible, but every once in a while I need to embrace indulgence. Will a $2 pen write? Absolutely. The thing is, there is no soul in that pen. It was ...
22:12:20 <Bike> ... produced with a million other pens exactly like it. These pens are different.
22:12:29 <Fiora> Bike: yks is amazing xD
22:12:39 <kmc> I've seen lots of logging systems but usually you're required to name some "logger" on each print statement and that's what you can enable/disable
22:12:50 <kmc> rather than it being implicitly controlled by the current module
22:13:00 <fizzie> kmc: Some of fancy C 'dprintf' macros (or whatnot) do enablation based on __FILE__ or top-of-source-file "MODULE" macro.
22:13:01 <FreeFull> Bike: I'd say to that person, "If you like pens so much, make them"
22:13:09 <shachaf> kmc: #define log(s) real_log(__FILE__, s)?
22:13:09 <kmc> fizzie: that's cool
22:14:09 <fizzie> Also __VA_ARGS__ so you can be all format string.
22:16:58 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
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22:18:49 <Bike> https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/728/934/bf0f707a2fbf5f442603d2a948ac8761_large.png?1373294172
22:20:06 <Bike> FreeFull: oh they are making them. they are in-deed.
22:20:35 <shachaf> Bike: Is Amazon Aws where they serve all the kitten pictures from?
22:22:50 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: uh did you see the table i think it's pretty clear.
22:25:48 <Bike> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/eimim/eimim-x-y-and-z-pens1 here
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22:26:41 <Bike> yes and that thing is not enough craftsmanship
22:26:58 <ion> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jul/08/mos-def-force-fed-guantanamo-bay-video
22:28:21 <Bike> oh, http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/eimim/eimim-x-y-and-z-pens
22:28:45 <shachaf> Bike: There's a better chart at http://www.sourcereal.com/
22:29:03 <Bike> not in png form though!!
22:29:26 <shachaf> Bike: Well, print it out and photograph it if you want a png.
22:29:58 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:29:59 <Bike> why would you use a png for a photograph
22:30:13 <kmc> finally, pens for insufferable people
22:30:34 <shachaf> Bike: because it's a photograph of text
22:31:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how the 'seamless design' is accomplished by cutting grooves all the way up the pen to make it hard to see the seam with the cap
22:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> "I use the strongest permanent neodymium magnets available. They provide a unique and innovative method of attaching the cap to the back of the pen during use."
22:32:17 <Phantom_Hoover> you are, er, calling the use of magnets to stick things together innovative
22:32:29 <kmc> "yeah bitch! magnets!"
22:32:38 <FreeFull> Strongest possible neodymium magnets
22:32:42 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: to be fair i don't think i've ever seen that in pens.
22:32:47 <FreeFull> That cap isn't coming back off
22:33:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, yes, probably because for, say, any kind of practical pen design it wouldn't really work
22:33:28 <Bike> don't be a h8r.
22:36:22 <Bike> hahaha this is so dorky.
22:36:36 <Bike> patented magnetic engineering physics.
22:37:21 <Bike> is this seriously $30 for two pens.
22:37:54 <Fiora> Bike: http://yourkickstartersucks.tumblr.com/post/46417947427/hey-congrats-on-inventing-the-bowl-the-cookie
22:38:04 <Fiora> High milk displacement dunk technology.
22:38:57 <Bike> nope, $7,734 was donated (though it wasn't funded, so)
22:39:11 <Bike> well i mean, they're probably writing it in a jokey tone
22:39:25 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1339254269/ron-paul-road-to-revolution
22:39:25 <Bike> as a smokescreen over the fact that this is bullshit
22:39:32 <Bike> ron paul is a classic.
22:39:47 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: that's the game, right? i don't think it's been made yet
22:40:12 <Fiora> wasn't that the thing where like the guy ended up admitting he had no idea how to make a game?
22:40:28 <Bike> so it just kinda died
22:40:36 <Bike> Basically, here's the problem: that finger extending, fist jamming, glass tilting lean to stretch for a dunk in those last few ounces of milk. It's an awful scenario. Best case? A partial dunk. Worst case? Milk spillage or you drop the cookie in and fish it out with a fork.
22:40:58 <Bike> https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/438/812/28ef07a4bfb36e7852b766519f2f734e_large.png?1363050910
22:42:05 <Bike> Is this part of the new face of American Manufacturing?
22:42:08 <Bike> Yes! This is about how a small business, with a 3d printer in the back room (we don't even have a garage!), can iterate and develop an idea and then use Kickstarter to raise funds for production tooling. We work with local companies because ethically we think it's the right thing to do and it makes the most sense for a small company to manage the logistics. Our injection molder, packaging printer, assembly facility, warehouse, and order fulfi
22:42:30 <Phantom_Hoover> also that thing reminds me of those glasses that are supposedly modelled on a breast or something
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22:44:49 <kmc> yourkickstartersucks is the greatest
22:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> one of the potential refills listed are the ones for fisher space pens
22:47:07 <Phantom_Hoover> thing is, fisher space pen refills are a complete ink + nib assembly
22:47:29 <Phantom_Hoover> so he's not just charging $55 for a ballpoint pen, he's charging $55 for a ballpoint pen casing
22:48:55 <kmc> look if you buy expensive things then you're just flaunting wealth but if you buy expensive "minimalist" things then you can somehow pretend that it's morally justified and makes you better on an aesthetic plane as well
22:49:23 <kmc> anyway as usual: a pen that does what I want is minimal, a pen that does what you want is bloated
22:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> (are you... insinuating that buying expensive things isn't morally justified)
22:50:23 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere that all Disney movies have Mickey Mouse in them, but does that include Pixar?
22:50:53 <kmc> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/aural.html
22:50:58 <Koen__> you shouldn't believe all that you read!
22:51:11 <Bike> Oh, you mean hidden mickeys?
22:51:59 <zzo38> I have sometimes found Mickey Mouse in some Disney movies I have seen, without being told about it before, but mostly I haven't done so.
22:52:29 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know. I haven't seen it in any Pixar movies.
22:52:37 <zzo38> (But maybe I just didn't notice it)
22:53:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean i don't know if it's a joke but it's brilliant either way
22:54:30 <kmc> http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/std/local_data.html weird module imo
22:56:48 <Bike> http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-special-offers-forum/682220-memejacker-limited-reopening-popular-demand-rave-reviews-fastest-results-i-have-seen.html finally, i can make my own website.
22:58:00 <kmc> don't jack my memes
23:00:32 <ion> It took me a while to begin realizing that might not actually be a joke.
23:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
23:05:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean according to these statistics the poorest ten percent of the bolivian population earn more than the richest 10%, afaict
23:06:58 <Fiora> it says 93.9, so that's 93.9 times more for the richest 10% than the poorest 10%
23:07:25 <Bike> that's still positive.
23:07:46 <Bike> the average income of a member of the top 10% is 93.9 or 157.3 times the average income of a member of the bottom 10%.
23:08:01 <Bike> oops, over one i meant, yeah, not positive.
23:08:44 <Bike> unless you think the top 10% of the UK earn a tenth of what the bottom 10% do ;)
23:09:11 <Bike> gini is a percentage, though.
23:09:27 <Bike> (not that it's all that great as a metric but that's another matter)
23:13:36 <Bike> yeah having % in the column title desn't help
23:13:57 <Phantom_Hoover> http://yourkickstartersucks.tumblr.com/post/47199723497/a-set-of-wooden-apple-keyboard-replacement-keys
23:14:47 <FreeFull> Hmm, what would tactical keys be like?
23:15:55 <Bike> "...I could totally see one of them under my iMac screen, sat on my chipped old marble-topped desk" -WIRED
23:16:35 <Bike> ugh this thing is so ugly
23:16:45 <FreeFull> Aren't those basically just pieces of wood, made sticky on one side, and cut to match the keys?
23:17:18 <Bike> it's a tactile experience
23:18:04 <Bike> Every set of Engrain Keys has it's own inherent beauty and natural tactility, turning your keyboard into an individualized work of art that will compliment your desktop, and engage your senses every time you type.
23:18:38 <Bike> Note: Engrain Keys are not recommended for installation on laptops, as the clearance is inadequate when closed and could result in scratching the screen.
23:19:33 <Bike> "The idea for the Engrain Tactile Keys originally spawned from my graduate thesis work " must not stereotype must not stereotype
23:19:52 <Bike> https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/378/842/d09309f192b8847a72846f77ef5d0cf8_large.jpg?1360358317 aghaghagh
23:20:38 <Bike> it's like typing on lays
23:20:50 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if they're actually cut to the grain of the wood or if they just cut some template onto it
23:21:21 <Bike> looks like they just cut holes in a plank
23:21:26 <Bike> you get the rest of the plank with the keys
23:22:09 <Phantom_Hoover> in fact i imagine it's very hard to get any other kind of plank
23:22:33 <Bike> if it's not flat it's not a plank it's just part of a tree
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23:27:47 <kmc> Bike: when I went camping someone else had this amazingly comfortable foam mat made of fancy foam with circular holes cut in it... they told me that there's a company selling earplugs to the military and they sell the leftover sheets of foam as camping mats
23:27:52 <kmc> i was super impressed
23:28:46 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm sure i've heard other stories about industrial processes like that
23:45:32 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Terminal_Event_Management_Policy
23:46:03 <Fiora> Bike: http://jeb.biologists.org/content/early/2013/06/27/jeb.087809
23:46:20 <Bike> Fiora: yeah that's been going around
23:46:27 <Bike> fucking crazy far as i'm concerned
23:46:52 <Bike> i guess i should actually read the paper, the news i've seen is a bit ambiguous
23:47:01 <Bike> something about needing a refresher training session after the decaptation
23:47:21 <Bike> (man jeb has the coolest papers)
23:49:29 <Bike> also good: i've been to campus twice, haven't paid tuition yet, aand have still gotten dozens of papers from campus access.
23:55:59 <Bike> Fiora: ...the paper has line numbers. i have never seen this before.
00:01:25 <Bike> The team injected their snails with two different types of lyophilized bacteria, Escherichia coli and Microccocus lysodeikticus, as well as ground-up gonads from an unlucky snail infected with a trematode parasite. Some snails escaped these treatments and just received innocuous injections of snail saline or ground-up uninfected gonads.
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00:21:54 <Koen__> there's an animal eating the inside of my wall
00:22:11 <Koen__> it makes a lot of creepy noises
00:36:03 <Sgeo> :( I can't download Java 6 anymore without having an Oracle account
00:40:37 <Sgeo> I probably shouldn't be giving a Java 6 application Administrative privileges anyway
00:41:45 <Fiora> Bike: oh gosh, I found this thing on yks
00:41:52 <Fiora> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/glennf/crowdfunding-a-guide-to-what-works-and-why I still can't get over the fact that this. existed, and /failed/
00:42:58 <Fiora> yeah, I mean, like. levels of irony
00:44:15 <Sgeo> I'm still waiting on a Kickstarter project I backed in 2011
00:44:34 <Sgeo> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1508284443/grandroids-real-artificial-life-on-your-pc?ref=live
00:44:38 <Phantom_Hoover> was it one of the first wave or was it something depressing and Sgeo
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00:47:22 <Sgeo> Well, I mean, he's still working on it
00:47:26 <Sgeo> I can see his blog posts
00:47:53 <Sgeo> ........AND I HAVE A COMPUTER THAT CAN RUN IT.... when it goes into backer-only beta someday
00:48:10 <Phantom_Hoover> but this is pretty much a textbook case of a kickstarter that's doomed
00:48:35 <Sgeo> I think he got the creatures to balance themselves
00:50:19 <shachaf> @tell Bike I couldn't find a copy of the book with the laughterless planet in it. So I'll take a different one.
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00:53:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, well like he's working without any kind of oversight or authority from the people funding him
00:54:20 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKRpxj5sqg8&feature=youtu.be
00:54:25 <Phantom_Hoover> and from past experience i suspect what'll happen is he'll piss that time away because there's no pressure on him to deliver rather than tinkering away forever and you'll all be left at a loss
00:54:46 <Bike> Fiora: https://twitter.com/Fausto_Sterling/status/355437744085938179
00:54:59 <Bike> shachaf: that workz
00:55:32 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Planaria_nervous.png kind of shitty as brains go, tbh
00:55:56 <Phantom_Hoover> when you look at that it's not really all that surprising is it
00:55:58 <Bike> on the other hand the paper claimed that they don't move while headless
00:56:11 <Bike> so probably the "brain" does have the CPG sort of things
00:56:16 <Bike> or drivers anyway
00:56:51 <Phantom_Hoover> (is that thing about dinosaurs having a secondary neural cluster to control their hind legs actually true these days?)
00:57:07 <Fiora> I guess when they finally get working head transplants on mammals we'll be able to get a bigger idea of how non-brain memory works?
00:57:15 <Fiora> or, well. non brain cognition things in general
00:57:21 <Bike> well, it's... a lot different between planarians and vertebrates.
00:57:35 <Bike> i mean i dunno about you but even as a bike i'm like 2000% more cephalized than those things.
00:58:01 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalization I had no idea this was a thing
00:58:08 <Bike> yeah, there are degrees of headedness.
00:58:19 <Bike> a jellyfish or w/e doesn't have a centralized brain, unsurprisingly, just a nerve net
00:58:54 <Bike> the "head" for this purpose is defined as the bit with the brain, so
00:58:57 <mnoqy> the head end's wherever it ends up concentrating, of course
00:59:13 <Bike> it's not inherent that shit comes out the other end, if that's what you're thinking
00:59:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, well like all the other things generally associated with 'head'
00:59:31 <Phantom_Hoover> 'bit that goes forward', 'bit where food goes in', 'bit where eyes are', etc.
00:59:39 <Bike> well once you have a brain having the sense organs nearer the brain is obviously advantageous
01:00:11 <Bike> having your eyes behind you isn't very good, motion-wise
01:00:12 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, but you can have things in metastable but non-optimal positions can't you
01:00:18 <Fiora> I remember hearing a thing that like, the brain would internally delay signals from closer sensory organs so that everything was synchronized?
01:00:24 <Fiora> or is that just like, a conscious illusory effect
01:00:36 <Fiora> it was something along the lines of "technically, tall people experience the world with very slightly more delay"
01:00:43 <Bike> Fiora: that's a theory, yeah
01:00:44 <Fiora> because their feet are farther away
01:00:55 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: yeah but not seeing well means dying fast.
01:01:31 <Bike> i'm thinking about the 'bit that goes forward' question
01:01:38 <Bike> say you had an animal with a head, and eyes on the tail
01:01:41 <Sgeo> Are my icons shared between users?
01:02:02 <Sgeo> I deleted an ActiveWorlds shortcut off my Work user, and I don't see it on my Home user's desktop
01:02:04 <Bike> pretty easy to sneak up and decapitate it, see
01:02:35 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: as for dinos, i found http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/365/did-dinosaurs-have-a-separate-brain-in-their-behinds. the answer seems to be no. unfortunately.
01:02:53 <Fiora> are there any vetebrates with a split or spread out nervous system?
01:03:07 <Bike> Fiora: what do you think your spinal cord is :p
01:03:12 <zzo38> I have seen recent movies from Touchstone and Pixar (both of which are Disney), and I didn't see Mickey Mouse (although I wasn't really trying). Is it only their hand-drawn cartoons that have Mickey Mouse?
01:03:18 <Fiora> I meant, like, the brain itself,sorry >_<
01:03:20 <Bike> that shit is /loaded/ with CPGs lemme tell you
01:03:32 <Bike> well i mean, what's "the brain itself". the spinal cord is part of the CNS
01:03:41 <Bike> central pattern generator, sort of vaguely like a clock
01:03:52 <Fiora> oh, so like phased locked loops for neurons?
01:04:20 <Fiora> I guess like. a human brain seems to keep working mostly fine with a severed spinal cord though?
01:04:22 <Bike> pretty much exactly that in fact.
01:04:44 <Bike> Fiora: the brain also works mostly fine with a hemisphere removed~
01:04:52 <Fiora> ... that's true <.<
01:05:12 <Bike> (mod development)
01:05:23 <Sgeo> :( Active Worlds is behaving dumbly
01:05:25 <Fiora> but like how much of her brain does buttercup not have
01:05:37 <Fiora> it seems a little odd to define the spinal cord like that ? I don't know you know more than me
01:05:59 <Bike> well, yeah, if you mean do you need the spinal cord to be a poet or w/e then yeah you don't.
01:11:06 <Bike> in the "spinal cord injury" article on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Man_falling_of_horse.jpg "Falling as a part of recreational activities can cause spinal cord injuries."
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01:18:02 <Bike> Fiora: so um... there is a fairly high degree of decentralization in vertebrates even; i mean we have lots of autonomic ganglia too: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Gray839.png
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01:27:09 <Fiora> Bike: I guess what I'm kind of thinking of is like um...
01:27:20 <Fiora> the human nervous system is kind of like a tree, isn't it? like the stomach doesn't really talk to the leg
01:27:27 <Fiora> but they both talk to some central nerve
01:27:38 <Fiora> are there cases where the nervous system is more like... a graph?
01:28:02 <Bike> jellyfish are like tha.t
01:28:11 <Bike> invertebrates generallly don't have notochords, i guess
01:28:17 <Bike> i don't know much about their anatomy though :(
01:28:20 <Fiora> like, two brains would be more like a graph
01:28:32 <Fiora> wow I used graph theory to describe this I am a dork
01:28:50 <Bike> well neuroscientists do it too "it's cool"
01:29:19 <Bike> i'm not sure what the adaptive advantage of having two brains would be, though.
01:29:43 <Bike> I mean, how often do you use a tree with two roots
01:29:45 <Phantom_Hoover> it's a reasonable enough way to describe something which is... made of nodes connected by edges
01:29:58 <Phantom_Hoover> although i guess on the neuron level it's not that graphy
01:30:18 <Bike> it's pretty graphy in some micro situations
01:30:34 <Bike> c.f. everything ramon y cajal ever drew
01:31:10 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/c0cc8be3d7d1cc3cf4512fc69ce9a8a6/tumblr_metattU8KO1rvzqmmo1_400.gif "good tree, imo"
01:31:11 <Phantom_Hoover> well i mean, graphs aren't necessarily the best abstraction to use
01:31:28 <Bike> directed graph.
01:31:52 <Bike> on the level of individual neurons it's inaccurate sure, but that's some dorky shit annyway
01:32:26 <Bike> http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v4/n1/images/nrn1010-f2.jpg the neuron people came from the sky to rule us
01:33:44 <Fiora> Bike: http://aegisaglow.tumblr.com/post/55219226085/neurosciencestuff-first-man-to-hear-people wow this is timely
01:33:53 <Bike> " The only multicellular animals that have no nervous system at all are sponges, placozoans and mesozoans, which have very simple body plans. The nervous systems of ctenophores (comb jellies) and cnidarians (e.g., anemones, hydras, corals and jellyfishes) consist of a diffuse nerve net. All other types of animals, with the exception of a few types of worms, have a nervous system containing a brain, a central cord (or two cords running ...
01:33:59 <Bike> ... in parallel), and nerves radiating from the brain and central cord"
01:34:02 <Bike> i gues that answers the question of whether anything actually has two brains.
01:34:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, you're under arrest for aiding and abetting crimes against colour coordination
01:34:44 <Bike> yeah, that was a weird case. brain problems generally are some fucked shit, imo.
01:34:57 <Fiora> color... color coordination? @_@
01:35:15 <Bike> he's saying the blog is ugly
01:35:18 <Fiora> that's not my blog :<
01:35:25 <Fiora> that's haven's blog
01:35:27 <Bike> kind of have to agree, really
01:35:46 <Bike> do you actually say that
01:36:16 <Bike> you're the guys where you can be "guilty but not proven", yeah?
01:37:34 <Phantom_Hoover> originally it was just guilty/not proven but at some point a jury pointedly ruled 'not guilty' and the two acquittals just kind of coexisted
01:40:36 <Bike> hm, xenoturbella are deuterosomes but don't have brains
01:41:01 <Phantom_Hoover> the other one i remember is that the person upon whom a crime was visited is referred to as 'the complainer'
01:42:07 <Bike> http://www.accessscience.com/loadBinary.aspx?filename=YB051410FG0010.gif gonna use my authority as a bikeologist to say xenoturbella look terrible
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01:49:19 <Bike> no they entirely lack groove or funk of any sort
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02:36:18 <Bike> https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/400/035/d1871725b651f53a9094e9b9d803ef6e_large.jpg?1361420820
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03:21:25 <shachaf> Gracenotes: Oops, I guess I forgot to click the button for bacat.
03:21:33 <shachaf> So I guess I'll be on the waitlist too.
03:21:38 <shachaf> Or I could just not bother, and just show up.
03:28:58 <Gracenotes> I think people are more likely to cancel without telling anyone
03:29:13 <Gracenotes> it would be a shame to go all the way into SF, though
03:31:03 * Sgeo wants to combine a WorldsPlayer-like architecture with WebGL
03:31:35 <Sgeo> Although WorldsPlayer-like might not be that descriptive
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03:46:01 <Sgeo> Is good.example.com safe from evil.example.com?
03:46:12 <Sgeo> Or should example.com make sure evil.example.com doesn't exist
03:46:23 <Sgeo> (user created Javascript and HTML pages)
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03:50:20 <tswett> elliott now knows how to count to two!
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03:50:39 <tswett> Sgeo: I'm pretty sure that foo.example.com and bar.example.com are totally separate and can't interact with each other.
03:52:44 <tswett> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same_origin_policy
03:52:57 <tswett> Looks like foo.example.com can interfere with example.com, however. But example.com can't interfere with foo.example.com.
03:55:19 <quintopia> doesthiswork: i'm ready for the next episode
03:58:32 <doesthiswork> quintopia: http://watchacartoon.vv.si/ro/Watch-Futurama%20Season%207%20Episode%2016%20T%20The%20Terrestrial-_-aHR0cDovL3d3dy53YXRjaGNhcnRvb25vbmxpbmUuY29tL2Z1dHVyYW1hLXNlYXNvbi03LWVwaXNvZGUtMTYtdC10aGUtdGVycmVzdHJpYWw=
04:04:40 <shachaf> Gracenotes: I asked Vlad and he said I could just show up.
04:11:33 <Gracenotes> shachaf: I don't know Vlad, perhaps I shall be forbidden :o
04:11:47 <shachaf> They don't really ask about names or anything.
04:12:18 <shachaf> Hopefully we get to use the big room again. The small room is, uh, too small.
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04:37:30 <Bike> Fiora: http://www.superksonic.com/the-project
04:49:53 <fizzie> shachaf: Logically, though, isn't the big room then, uh, too big?
04:50:22 <fizzie> You should ask for the suitably-sized room instead.
04:55:39 <shachaf> fizzie: That one is, uh, too suitably-sized.
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05:00:43 <tswett> Sgeo: http://nomic.zbasu.net/nomicbank/userinfo/sgeo/
05:00:53 <tswett> Sgeo: it doesn't do much, though; it's just a thing for tracking debts.
05:01:01 <tswett> In three different currencies, even.
05:01:18 <Sgeo> ...why did I initially think that would be a LambdaMOO thing?
05:03:30 <Sgeo> http://www.mudlet.org/
05:03:38 <Sgeo> Hmm, how do mappers like that work?
05:03:46 <Sgeo> And do they assume MUD, and not work in a MOO
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05:17:34 <comex> so am I confused, or do iterators basically work as an explicit (but not much more verbose and less magic) version of stream fusion?
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05:20:22 <comex> python-style - i guess really the same thing as streams but without skip
05:20:51 <comex> ah, i was confused - they do, but trivially so
05:22:14 <comex> the only magic rewrite rule in haskell's stream fusion is that stream+unstream is the identity
05:23:41 <comex> so if you just be upfront about doing things with iterators, there's no need for that
05:24:52 <comex> i wonder whether it would be advisable to have skip
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06:53:28 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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07:02:27 <kmc> hello friends
07:06:44 <Sgeo> HexChat's current color for joins is what I'm used to for quits and parts
07:07:19 <oerjan> fizzie: it looks like they didn't see any better solution than rebooting the server that had problems yesterday (initially with accessing the NFS mail directory, but the problem escalated quickly)
07:07:36 <kmc> is HexChat the official IRC client of Hexham
07:07:51 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, it is a solution, of course.
07:08:20 <Gracenotes> "When two vehicles meet on a steep road where neither vehicle can pass, the vehicle facing downhill must yield the right-of-way by backing up until the vehicle going uphill can pass."
07:08:55 <Gracenotes> Also, if you're reversing, that makes you a vehicle going uphill, so the process can continue recursively
07:10:17 <fizzie> Favourite traffic rules trick question for the Finnish exam (which is mostly based on asking questions about pictures): set up a straight-forward looking scenario, but put a tram behind a bush somewhere on the left, so that a small corner is peeking out.
07:10:39 <fizzie> (As an exception to the general rule, trams here have right-of-way disregarding the approach direction.)
07:10:44 <oerjan> hm reminds me of a norwegian comedy sketch (from a show which i vaguely recall was based on a british one), although the road there was flat afair
07:11:50 <oerjan> based on "Hancock's Half Hour" says no.wikipedia
07:12:15 <Gracenotes> "The force of a 60 mph crash is not just twice as great as 30 mph crash; it's four times as great!"
07:12:30 <fizzie> Does the DMV know psychics?
07:12:59 <Gracenotes> Based on this manual, they did not anticipate you asking
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07:20:27 <kmc> trams are good because you know they aren't going to suddenly swerve and run you over
07:21:42 <oerjan> which makes it even more dangerous when they do anyway hth
07:22:59 <kmc> does it cost a lot of money to get a driving license in finland or no
07:23:49 <Gracenotes> I can't imagine most public services costing a lot of money in finland
07:23:59 <shachaf> doesn't it cost a lot of time at least
07:25:44 <kmc> who is the cult leader of #esoteric
07:26:16 <shachaf> but i wouldn't call him a cult leader, really
07:27:08 <oerjan> we're an ineffective cult because our leaders are so lazy
07:27:31 <shachaf> perhaps #esoteric is a cocult
07:27:36 <shachaf> (not to be confused with the occult)
07:27:45 <shachaf> there's an initial object but no terminal object
07:28:17 -!- oerjan has set topic: The cocult (not to be confused with the occult) channel | <3 | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
07:28:32 <shachaf> #esoteric on irc.dahl.net is presumably the occult channel?
07:30:59 <Gracenotes> Never make a U-turn: [...] On a one-way street.
07:34:54 <shachaf> Depends on which way you start.
07:35:39 <Gracenotes> Yes, if you are driving in the wrong direction on a one way street, you are required to immediately pull to the side of the road, stop, panic, and turn around when safe.
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07:41:49 <Gracenotes> For instruction on backing up, there are separate bullet points for "your kids" and "other children".
07:43:17 <shachaf> Well, presumably each person is responsible for backing up their own kids.
07:43:35 <shachaf> You shouldn't even have read access to other children.
07:44:14 <Gracenotes> Evidently you are required to have executable access to directories of other children.
07:46:27 <Gracenotes> 'If another drive does not him his or her lights: [...] Do not try to "get back" at the other driver by keeping your bright lights on. If you do, both of you may be blinded.' --Gandhi
07:50:05 <Gracenotes> kmc: have you a driver's license? in the great state of CA, even?
07:50:28 <shachaf> what about a train license
07:50:49 <kmc> Gracenotes: no
07:51:27 <Gracenotes> Confused people are also exemplified as "Tourists, often at complicated intersections" and "Drivers who are looking for a house number or who slow down for no apparent reason"
07:52:02 <Gracenotes> Compare this to merely distracted people, who may include: Delivery persons, Construction workers, Children (who often run into the street without looking), etc.
07:52:27 <shachaf> tourists enter, one wrist leaves
07:56:15 <kmc> should i go to finland again
07:56:52 <Gracenotes> "If you drive for sight-seeing purposes to the scene of a fire, collision, or other disaster, you may be arrested."
07:58:08 <Gracenotes> "Horse-drawn vehicles and riders of horses or other animals are entitled to share the road with motor vehicles. It is a traffic offense to scare horses or stampede livestock."
08:00:26 <Gracenotes> Hm. Interesting: cyclists are required to carry identification
08:03:58 <Gracenotes> More fun information: you may not use your cellphone, even hands-free, "to engage in distracting conversations"
08:05:49 <kmc> do the medical marijuana test next
08:06:44 <Gracenotes> what's the condition that can be easily claimed to 'pass' such a test, due I think to lack of easy falsifiability?
08:06:44 <kmc> "do you want some marijuana? y/n"
08:09:33 <Gracenotes> Apparently, there is such a thing. Which, I understand, is actually pretty common.
08:15:40 <Gracenotes> "Do not shoot firearms on a highway or at traffic signs."
08:16:16 <kmc> stop signs out in the desert have a lot of shotgun holes in them
08:16:30 <Gracenotes> There is also such a thing as "illegally tinted safety glasses"
08:16:49 <Gracenotes> And, not to mention, "Vehicles taking part in a funeral procession have the right-of-way"
08:17:48 <fizzie> The driving schools are, I think, relatively expensive.
08:18:02 <fizzie> Yet I think most go that way.
08:18:20 <fizzie> But if you have an accommodating parent or some such, it would technically be possible for them to acquire a permit to teach someone.
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08:20:29 <fizzie> The Goatse School of Driving -- so (colloquially) named because of their logo: http://www.haaganautokoulu.fi/wp-content/themes/thematic/img/header.jpg -- seems to charge a total of 1630 euros, of which the major part (1190 eur) is 17 * 50 minutes of driving instruction.
08:21:03 <fizzie> (But these are of course all private places.)
08:22:51 <fizzie> Many high schools (incl. mine) have a special deal with a driving school such that there's a course you can sign up to, which includes the theory part (possibly you even got one course credit point for it), and probably you get a discount for the driving lessons.
08:28:18 <oerjan> hm in norway you don't need a permit to teach someone to drive, as long as you're not paid. but there are experience requirements and stuff.
08:29:29 <oerjan> and it's considered unreasonably expensive to get enough training solely from professionals.
08:30:06 <fizzie> oerjan: Apparently the union of driving schools has a strong lobbying presence here, and there's been some controversy about it.
08:30:19 <shachaf> hmm the topic needs higher codepoints
08:30:23 -!- shachaf has set topic: The cocult (not to be confused with the occult) channel | ♥ | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
08:31:03 <fizzie> E.g. claims that they've made the private-person teaching needlessly difficult/expensive, and funded bogus "research" on how professional driving education improves safety, and so on.
08:32:11 <fizzie> Also it seems that they've changed the requirements for that teaching permit in 2013 to be even more difficult, and the process of getting one now costs like 3000 eur, which doesn't make it any cheaper than just going to a regular school.
08:32:17 <fizzie> Or so I gather from fi.wikipedia.
08:32:44 <fizzie> Funny, I didn't really know it was such a controversial topic; I've thought "well, that's very expensive, but I guess that's the way it is" once or twice and that's it.
08:33:19 <Gracenotes> I was able to get 20 hours worth of driving school free in high school in the United States.
08:33:37 <Gracenotes> Due to some program or another, though; I forget the details.
08:34:03 <fizzie> I think we just got the theory part for free in the program I mentioned. Then again, we don't really pay for the schools, so...
08:34:36 <Gracenotes> The instructor occasionally asked me to drive to shopping centers, where he left me standing in the car for up to 5 minutes to pick up food or prescriptions etc...
08:35:06 <Gracenotes> So it was not exactly entirely professional.
08:41:45 <oerjan> oh btw i made ais523's concurrency construct in haskell maybe some others would like to see it http://lpaste.net/90816
08:41:54 <oerjan> (not tested, as usual)
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11:04:31 <ion> http://low.fi/~viznut/loremipsum-google.txt
11:11:50 <elliott> "CIA let KSM design vacuum cleaner in detention to 'keep him sane'"
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11:26:27 <elliott> all this pen stuff in the backlog is reminding me of http://artisanalpencilsharpening.com
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11:28:17 <fizzie> It's reminding me of Pen Island.
11:28:32 <fizzie> (They are very passionate about pens too.)
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12:41:07 <ion> fizzie: Their website is full of gems.
12:41:42 <ion> Many of our customers prefer to take on two or even three types of wood for one project.
12:42:10 <ion> Q: Can I provide my own wood? A: In most cases we can handle your wood. We do require all shipments to be clean, free of parasites and pass all standard customs inspections.
12:45:54 <fizzie> "Whether all you want is a simple skinny white pen (it's our best seller!) or something wrapped in leather or little pink bows, we've done it all. Even pens dipped in chocolate!"
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13:28:02 <ion> http://news.err.ee/politics/0233b688-b116-44c3-98ca-89a4057acad8 https://github.com/vvk-ehk/evalimine/blob/master/ivote-server/hes/vote_analyzer.py
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14:18:47 <AnotherTest> ion: I saw that. Note also how their code is extremely not documented
14:19:09 <AnotherTest> This somehow has to be an elaborate prank...
14:21:12 <AnotherTest> the estonian prime-minister is pulling a hoax
14:34:48 <fizzie> There is a "House of Elliott" brand necklace for sale here at the post office.
14:37:56 <elliott> 32 isn't much moneys for an elliott
14:38:03 <fizzie> I took a picture of it, that's like the next best thing.
14:58:12 <itsy> Wait, what was that? The Post Office sells necklaces?
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15:05:23 <Taneb> We're co cult? What does that mean
15:10:42 <fizzie> itsy: They have one shelf of "miscellaneous crap".
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15:13:04 <jsvine> Good morning, #esoteric
15:13:48 <jsvine> Anything exciting lately in the world of esolangs?
15:14:54 <Taneb> I don't know, I haven't been online much recently
15:15:22 <jsvine> Yeah, I had to check out for a couple of weeks to focus on another project; now trying to catch up :)
15:16:56 <fizzie> elliott: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130712-house_of_elliott.jpg http://www.houseofelliott.fi/?lang=en
15:17:00 <fizzie> (Sorry, that's not at all "exciting -- in the world of esolangs".)
15:18:23 <ion> Which one is elliott? http://www.houseofelliott.fi/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/etu_2013_11.jpg
15:18:40 <Taneb> http://www.elliottsurveyors.co.uk/background.html
15:19:15 <fizzie> ion: I think the one with the hat.
15:21:30 <ion> http://heh.fi/tmp/elliott-is.png
15:22:19 <Taneb> Notethe location stated in my link
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15:33:27 <jsvine> Anyone have thoughts on http://torso.me/chicken?
15:33:45 <ion> jsvine: chicken chicken.
15:35:23 <jsvine> (Oh and a reminder to anyone who doesn't know/remember: I'm a WSJ reporter working on a potential story on esoteric programming languages. Feel free to DM me, or email me at jsvine@gmail.com if you'd like to chat privately.)
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15:51:26 <tromp__> chicken is a run of the mill 10 instruction stack language that achieves humor and silly-ness by denoting instruction i as i chicken's followed by a newline (AFAICT)
15:54:38 <fizzie> I know that oerjan's thoughts on chicken are: "lovely"
15:54:53 <tswett> I just realized that the word "florin" strongly suggests the color pink to me.
15:54:55 <fizzie> (The topic was broached on channel 2013-07-02.)
15:55:50 <tromp__> chicken is like a poultrified whitespace
15:55:57 <fizzie> I don't know how funny the language was, but the interpreter was nice.
15:56:33 <tswett> Is there some word for some shade of pink that begins with the "flor" sound?
15:57:33 <tswett> I guess fuchsia begins with "f".
15:58:34 <tswett> So do "fire engine red" and "fluorescent" anything. I think it's fair to say that fuchsia is the effiest color.
15:59:21 <Taneb> Perhaps youconnectit to floral
15:59:45 <tswett> That sounds likely, except that flowers aren't necessarily pink.
16:02:17 <tswett> I've always associated the musical note F with pink as well.
16:02:27 <tswett> And then G is green. I guess the reason for that seems pretty obvious.
16:03:00 <fizzie> fcolor of 25 images says the color of "florin" is #756156.
16:03:28 <fizzie> (Most of those images were of coins, and then quite a few of Florin Court, the building that's the fictional Whitehaven Mansions where Hercule Poirot lives in the TV series.)
16:03:37 <tswett> C is like a dark blue. "Cobalt", I guess? D is also green. E is a lighter blue.
16:03:48 <tswett> A is yellow, and B, I dunno. Black?
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16:22:24 <zzo38> jsvine: Did you write that report?
16:25:09 <zzo38> jsvine: The one about esoteric programming.
16:25:39 <jsvine> zzo38: Ah, no, got pulled off into another project. Now back and continuing to research.
16:26:17 <jsvine> tromp__: For my unlearned sake, could you explain "run of the mill 10 instruction stack language"?
16:26:28 <zzo38> If you have any questions I will try to answer them (or possibly, others can try, too).
16:29:50 <jsvine> Thanks. I'm mostly trying to figure out the narrative. I'd really like to get "the human factor", e.g., someone trying to write a complex program in Piet, or some esolang-programming competition, or someone trying to puzzle through the complexities of creating a new esolang...
16:30:44 <zzo38> Let me see if I have something...
16:31:19 <zzo38> You can try looking at some of Chris Pressey's stuff, possibly
16:31:44 <zzo38> If you are wondering about creating a new esolang, that is
16:32:31 <AnotherTest> jsvine: not sure what this is about, but here are some languages I found nice esolangs.org/wiki/User:AnotherTest/Notable_Language
16:32:58 <jsvine> Ah, thanks. I've been in touch a bit with Chris, but I'll pressey him again for more details
16:34:00 <jsvine> AnotherTest: Thanks! I like that list.
16:34:23 <zzo38> Yes, look at INTERCAL.
16:34:38 <tromp__> jsvine: see the list of instructions at http://torso.me/chicken-spec
16:35:30 <tromp__> it's the usual variety of stack manipulation instructions; arithmetic, load/store, input, output
16:37:56 <zzo38> A few esolangs (although not the ones in that list) are uncomputable, such as Gravity and TwoDucks, as well as some others.
16:38:51 <zzo38> When inventing esolangs, we don't normally care about the things that you should normally care about when inventing a programming language.
16:39:09 <tromp__> you could also write each of brainf*ck's 8 instructions with 1 to 8 chickens followed by newline, and presto, you have a new language "chickenf*ck"
16:39:42 <jsvine> zzo38: right and that's part of what I find so interesting about esolangs
16:40:53 <zzo38> jsvine: Yes, I do too.
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16:49:39 <zzo38> Did you look at the list of ideas?
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16:55:50 <tromp__> Ook! is an example of a language that's just a thin syntax veneer layer over Brainfuck
16:56:48 <tromp__> What's shocking is that such languages make it into articles like http://net.tutsplus.com/articles/top-10-most-bizarre-programming-languages/
17:00:05 <jsvine1> Right. I think I'll want to note that a whole bunch of the silly esolangs all belong to a single family, and that the innovation there is in humor rather than computer science.
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17:02:41 <zzo38> However , the list of ideas is: http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas
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17:04:40 <jsvine1> zzo38: Oh, that's great. I'm hopping out to lunch in a second, but will read this when I get back.
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17:06:32 <oerjan> <elliott> all this pen stuff in the backlog is reminding me of http://artisanalpencilsharpening.com <-- is that supposed to have an innocuous splitup as well, because i cannot see it.
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17:07:26 <elliott> well it has "anal" in it. but I think it's rather higher-concept than that.
17:09:23 <oerjan> part of that modern mainstream junk theory that art _should_ be disturbing i assume.
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17:46:11 <jsvine> What ever happened to the Esoteric Awards? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_Awards
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18:43:50 <Bike_> http://24.media.tumblr.com/94d571eb3fe44125c6475b11e752da81/tumblr_mifzfvSJkG1qiyf4wo1_1280.jpg
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18:57:32 <lambdabot> *** "artsd" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
18:57:32 <lambdabot> n 1: an honorary arts degree [syn: {Doctor of Arts}, {ArtsD}]
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19:21:58 <elliott> oerjan: hi how is the featured language selection process going
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19:24:50 <shachaf> `run echo danish >> bin/llist
19:24:52 <elliott> oerjan: but I assigned you to it!
19:25:05 <shachaf> elliott: I assign you to fix 183.
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19:47:18 <shachaf> 12:46 -!- #rust You must have a registered nick (+r) to talk on this channel (#rust)
19:48:20 <shachaf> do i have to register on random irc things now
19:48:35 <Taneb> "art is anal pencil sharpenings" hth
19:48:52 <shachaf> Oh, it was jsut temporary.
19:49:00 <Gracenotes> also, have you noticed, there are very few men's belts at most stores with size <32
19:49:16 <Gracenotes> despite the fact that I think most men have waist size <32
19:49:38 <Gracenotes> It seems the prior of 'needing a belt' shifts the distribution substantially
19:50:15 <Taneb> My main belt (getting a bit old now) actually had an extra hole put into it for me
19:50:36 <Gracenotes> Yes, I recently bought another main belt, so to speak.
19:50:39 <shachaf> main is not usually a belt
19:51:12 <Taneb> And I would say that tall and skinny people need belts more but I am perhaps biased
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19:51:35 <kmc> yeah i have put holes in belts on several occasions
19:51:38 <Gracenotes> shachaf: what else is main? a function? pssh
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19:54:33 <Taneb> Now to get ice cream and also beer
19:55:26 <Gracenotes> Next think you'll be telling me there's a belt called _start
19:58:24 <Fiora> Gracenotes: my guess is that maybe there's few small ones because the small ones sell first
19:58:49 <Taneb> Ooh, good thinking
19:58:54 <Fiora> it's just like with jeans, like, last time I remember shopping for them there were so many more of the larger sizes, like 7-9+
19:59:02 <Fiora> and the smaller sizes had much smaller stacks
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20:13:23 <Gracenotes> but there would be smaller stacks, probably
20:13:33 <Gracenotes> I think one of the belt selections I saw had labelled stacks!
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21:07:42 <Vorpal> I would HIGHLY recommend the humble weekly sale this time. It includes Avernum, one of my favorite game series of all time, also one of the first series I ever played.
21:07:54 <Vorpal> The windows only installments work fine under wine for me.
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22:37:31 <Vorpal> Wow, been ages since I seen a game with a color depth option. It also says that 32 bits is "for newer PCs".
22:37:55 <Vorpal> Wait what, this game was released in 2009? Heh
22:41:18 <Fiora> Kingdom Hearts: Birth by Sleep has a 16-bit/32-bit color depth option, and that's pretty recent, I think
22:41:22 <Fiora> bizarrely enough... it's on the PSP.
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22:43:48 <Vorpal> Fiora, well the game I'm looking at is a Spiderweb Software RPG. They don't follow conventions when it comes to this stuff. Avernum 4 (released in 2006 on PC) has a old style blue background installer for example.
22:44:26 <Vorpal> Fiora, anyway I'm surprised a console/handheld game has graphics options at all
22:44:49 <Fiora> yeah, it's a very bizarre exception
22:44:56 <Vorpal> What need is there? They can know exactly how it will behave, unlike a PC where there are thousands of configurations.
22:45:07 <Fiora> it also has a CPU speed option, too
22:45:09 <Vorpal> If not hundred of thousands
22:45:13 <Fiora> like, you can pick between the stock 200mhz and the battery-eating 333mhz
22:45:51 <Vorpal> My phone runs faster than that unless it is at the lowest frequency
22:46:01 <Fiora> the PSP's like, 10 years old now though XD
22:46:29 <Vorpal> Oh? I thought it was more like 5-6
22:47:00 <Fiora> oh, it was released in japan december 2004
22:47:04 <Fiora> so um... 8.5 years?
22:47:21 <Vorpal> Also I have a quad core S3. IIRC it have steps of 100 from 200 MHz to 1.4 GHz with a few odd steps of 150 near the top or some such
22:49:10 <Vorpal> There is also an overclocking step of 1704 MHz listed in the ROM setting thingy. (I'm using PACman which is a mix of CM, Paranoid and AKOP, though I believe this section is from AKOP)
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23:50:35 <Bike> kmc: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~devdatta/papers/alice-in-warningland.pdf
23:52:20 <kmc> heh, what of it
23:55:38 <Bike> just thought it might interest you. it's empirical data on how many people click through security warnings.
23:57:32 <kmc> is it "all of them"
23:58:05 <Bike> nope, more like a third or a quarter.
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23:58:27 <Fiora> those are like the really big THIS IS EVIL MALWARE warnings, right?
23:59:11 <Bike> specifically mostly browsers' "yo you're getting phished dumbass" warnings
23:59:19 <shachaf> THIS WARNING IS EVIL. CLICK THROUGH IT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE
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00:16:13 <zzo38> PSP can be connected to a TV screen
00:30:48 <Bike> the paper proving szemeredi's theorem is six pages long. i don't fucking believe this.
00:32:28 <Bike> oh, wait, this is just the fuckin proceeding
00:33:32 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
00:33:51 <shachaf> Sgeo_: When are you going to `olist?
00:33:58 <shachaf> You can't leave us at a cliffhanger like this!
00:35:39 <Bike> the real paper, well, that has a flowchart explaining it T_T
00:44:24 <Gracenotes> I still haven't figured out what slist and olist are
00:44:24 <Bike> homestuck update, order of the stick update
00:44:24 <shachaf> olist is Order of the Stick updates.
00:44:25 <Gracenotes> get a regularly scheduled comic, hippies
00:44:26 <Bike> http://hananomono.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/photo-2.jpg those were dark days, before tex
00:44:26 <HackEgo> smlist (411): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
00:44:26 <Gracenotes> "Don't like what I am not interested in"? something along those lines
00:45:40 <shachaf> Bike: i can't tell whether they wrote "formulas" or "formulae" or "formulæ" with a pen
00:45:40 <shachaf> i gotta know these things :'(
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00:52:01 <shachaf> mnoqy you just don't understand me
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01:05:27 <Bike> shachaf: it's turing's phd, you could probably figure out what soon enough.
01:35:37 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gracenotes> I still haven't figured out what slist and olist are
01:36:02 <Fiora> slist is a homestuck update ping
01:36:42 <Bike> i would have thought the story would be more shachaf.
01:37:48 <Bike> what? you're, like, the premier mover and shaker in the thriving list industry
01:40:03 <Phantom_Hoover> all i know is one minute shachaf was fighting a bitter war to get his name off the list and the next he was spearheading the implementation of the new, slick, automated multilist system
01:40:11 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SgeoBot SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
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03:28:11 <zzo38> What is your ideas relating to philosophy of mathematics?
03:28:41 <Bike> "them's some crazy shit, alright"
03:29:20 <zzo38> My own belief is that mathematics is the real reality, not universe and physical object and stuff like that.
03:29:37 <Bike> what does being a real reality entail
03:29:40 <shachaf> My own belief is that my own belief is the real reality.
03:29:55 <shachaf> But I'm starting to think my own belief is biased.
03:29:56 <kmc> my own belief is that zzo38's belief is the real reality
03:31:28 <zzo38> Bike: O, now you need "metareality" in order to describe that, and then you have to describe that by "metaphilosophy" (which is still philosophy), and then... well, you cannot do that! That is what "God" is!
03:31:57 <Bike> well fuck, that clears everything up
03:32:14 <shachaf> If metaphilosophy is still philosophy, don't you get a paradox?
03:33:38 <shachaf> zzo38: hmm, can i have some zzo38 wisdom
03:34:33 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know.
03:35:19 <zzo38> Philosophy seems to be full of paradoxes anyways; that is why you make up things in order to try to resolve the paradox.
03:35:39 <kmc> metamasturbation
03:35:47 <shachaf> Hmm. That's pretty good zzo38 wisdom.
03:35:56 <Bike> what a weird time to coincidentally be talking about philosophy elsewhere
03:36:41 <zzo38> What elsewhere do you talk about philosophy?
03:37:20 <shachaf> Bike: Maybe you should quote zzo38.
03:37:21 <Bike> a different irc channel.
03:37:55 <Bike> not metaphysics, though.
03:38:45 <shachaf> zzo38: You should get a 7-character nick.
03:39:27 <zzo38> I already have a 7-character nick in my account (although it isn't currently active).
03:40:43 <zzo38> It is "zzo38___" (I also have "zzo38__" and "zzo38_")
03:41:09 <shachaf> Which one of those isn't a character?
03:41:56 <kmc> def __zzo38__(self): pass
03:42:37 <zzo38> shachaf: No, the one that isn't a character is the quotation marks and everything outside of them.
03:42:56 <Bike> > length "zzo38___"
03:43:39 <zzo38> "zzo38__" is 7-characters though!
03:43:56 <Bike> i think zzo wins this round, shachaf.
03:44:30 <shachaf> Bike: How many rounds are there?
03:45:04 <Bike> that was round 4. zzo is ahead by one, as one round was a draw.
03:53:34 <zzo38> Max Tegmark has made up "Mathematical Universe Hypothesis" and "Computable Universe Hypothesis". I think that the CUH is no good.
03:56:35 <zzo38> Yes, it is no good. It doesn't have to computable.
03:57:35 <Bike> What makes you say that?
03:58:05 <zzo38> It doesn't even have to have a single solution, or even any solution at all, or it might have multiple solutions.
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04:55:17 <tswett> It's not obvious to me that the MUH and modal realism are not effectively the same thing.
04:56:13 <tswett> I have a belief similar to modal realism, and I think mine is more factual and less nebulous:
04:56:42 <tswett> "There is no particular reason to believe that any possible world is any more or less real than any other."
04:57:07 <tswett> Well, that's not quite true. I think a simpler world could be considered "more real" than a more complicated one on the grounds that it has a higher probability.
05:06:55 <Bike> is simpler more probable
05:07:07 <tswett> Occam's razor, I guess.
05:07:42 <tswett> Essentially, the idea that even if you don't know anything about A, B, and C, you have to give "A and B and C" a lower probability estimate than "A".
05:11:29 <tswett> Well, if you gave them both the same probability estimate, then, to be consistent, you'd have to give "B and C" a probability estimate of 1, or "A" a probability estimate of 0.
05:11:43 <tswett> Both of which are undesirable, since you don't know what A, B, and C are.
05:12:06 <Bike> But what's this have to do with universes?
05:12:16 <Bike> Presumably picking a universe entails picking B or ¬B anyway.
05:37:37 <zzo38> Maybe you can pick both, somehow.
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05:53:10 <tswett> Bike: yeah, good point.
05:53:37 <tswett> Imagine, though, that if A is true, then B and C are both meaningful, whereas if A is false, then B and C are meaningless, whereas D is meaningful.
05:54:35 <tswett> If we assume that A, B, C, and D are all just as likely to be true as false, then "~A and D" and "~A and ~D" are more likely than "A and B and C" and "A and ~B and ~C" and so on.
05:55:22 <Bike> that's a huge assumption. especially given that by hypothesis they're not independent.
05:56:01 <Bike> besides, what do probabilities even mean here? God rolling dice to see what universes exist?
05:56:17 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you read _Mathematics Made Difficult_?
05:56:27 <shachaf> zzo38: I think you would be good at several of the exercises.
05:56:41 <zzo38> shachaf: I did not read.
05:57:07 <shachaf> zzo38: You should read it! It's great.
05:57:37 <shachaf> It also has a bibliography, which Taneb would surely appreciate.
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06:38:02 <Wntrvnm> And, since Nisstyre is in here, I'm gonna take that as a, "Yes." :P
06:38:19 <darkf> I wanted to make a new esolang
06:38:33 <darkf> I am too lazy to work it out though
06:42:12 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:43:06 <darkf> sounds eccentric. I love it!
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06:53:08 <Sgeo_> Is LoL or DotA 2 easier for newbies?
06:55:20 <oerjan> clearly LoL; how is DotA 2 even a laugh
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07:22:55 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> "art is anal pencil sharpenings" hth <-- tdnh, that was the obvious one.
07:23:40 <Gracenotes> not sure if either is a good use of your time, though
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17:23:43 <Sgeo_> Gracenotes, "good use of time"?
17:24:14 <Sgeo_> They're both games, unless one or the other or both aren't actually fun, I don't see how they can be bad uses of time
17:25:18 * oerjan sics a puritan on Sgeo_
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18:06:39 <Gracenotes> well, you might increase your skill in the game, necessitating your decrease in other things
18:07:05 <Gracenotes> like your sense of empathy, or intolerance for toxicity in communities
18:15:40 * oerjan sics a non-zero sum game theoretician on Gracenotes
18:16:45 <HackEgo> 424) <itidus20> Game theory is not a perfect tool for analyzing video games. <itidus20> Nash failed to create a "video game theory"
18:22:26 <Bike> way to drop the ball, nash.
18:37:21 <Gracenotes> oerjan: it might not be zero-sum, but the sum might not have massive margins either!
18:39:59 <Gracenotes> not as massive as those other sums. omai.
18:43:44 <oerjan> this sum is provably at most A(G_64, G_64), although honestly we suspect it's less than 15 hth
18:44:56 <elliott> hm there should be some sort of competition to pose the question whose answer has the largest known bounds
18:45:00 <elliott> er, difference between bounds
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18:56:17 <Sgeo_> Kind of disappointed that the Planetside 2 launcher links to a Wikia
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18:57:35 <Sgeo_> Gracenotes, are both communities really that bad?
18:57:37 <Phantom_Hoover> <quintopia> can i be off the list Phantom_Hoover? i only want pings for pbf.
18:58:14 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SgeoBot SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
18:58:30 <Phantom_Hoover> that's your own fault for running `list in the first place
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19:26:33 <Sgeo_> "my point is you need to get it out of your head that you can make code (especially web apps) pefectly secure against code injection attacks"
19:28:15 <kmc> while that's kind of dumb, I do think focusing on making things "perfectly secure" is rarely worthwhile
19:31:19 <kmc> type systems make your code "perfectly secure" against memory corruption.... except for bugs in the typechecker, codegen, runtime system, explicitly unsafe code, unsafe libraries, kernel, processor, &c.
19:31:33 <kmc> having all that stuff in your trusted base is still a huge improvement against having all that stuff *plus* your application in the trusted base
19:31:46 <kmc> especially because core system stuff gets reused a lot
19:32:16 <kmc> Servo segfaults a lot, at present
19:37:38 <kmc> mostly the latter
19:38:10 <kmc> we're interfacing to a bunch of C libraries, e.g. SpiderMonkey for JS
19:38:12 <elliott> imo who builds a language for a single application and makes it insufficient to express that application without going beyond the language
19:39:17 <kmc> well you could write a JS JIT in Rust, it would just be a huge project
19:39:37 <Gregor> Bless me, father, for I have sinned.
19:39:38 <kmc> and as we discussed earlier, the memory safety benefits are perhaps not that great
19:39:55 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
19:40:07 <Gregor> elliott: I've installed the Kindle app on a Nook.
19:40:09 <zzo38> There are ways to make programs secure if you don't overcomplicate it; I have done so (I think; if you find any bugs please notify me).
19:40:18 <Gregor> I'm fairly certain that there's a special place in hell for people who do that.
19:43:03 <zzo38> Gregor: I didn't know it is compatible. But, I suppose if it is, then of course it is possible to do such thing.
19:43:17 <Gregor> It is, it works great.
19:46:40 <Sgeo_> I don't think the torrent I'm downloading has peers, oh it does
19:47:10 <Sgeo_> There's... one peer
19:47:53 <Gracenotes> Sgeo_: iz okay. LoL is well-known for being not great, which is partly a consequence of some of the properties of the game itself
19:47:55 <Sgeo_> Unpopular games shouldn't be distributed through BitTorrent
19:48:12 <Sgeo_> Gracenotes, LoL or LoL's community is well-known for being not great?
19:48:14 <Gracenotes> F2P being the main one, long-running sessions being another
19:48:32 <Sgeo_> Are DotA 2 sessions longer or shorter than LoL sessions?
19:49:04 <Gracenotes> It's a reasonably deep game by itself, but my understanding is that a match's outcome may have been decided, essentially, even 20-30 minutes before the win condition is reached.
19:49:21 <Gracenotes> Also because it's a team game, there's no prudent resignation like in Go or Starcraft.
19:50:01 <Gracenotes> I can't say much about DotA 2, but also my understanding is that it has some more desirable properties in the metagame.
19:51:26 <Gracenotes> It is still *a* community, and one with good corners and bad corners.
19:51:58 <Gracenotes> though, yeah, it's probably not a good thing when pro players think nothing of DDOSing opponents.
19:52:34 <Gracenotes> (and, as this was a few years ago, get subsequently as hellbanned as you can get, hopefully deterring that from happening nowadays... hopefully)
19:52:59 <Gracenotes> no shortage of drama, which is a good (?) thing
19:53:52 <Sgeo_> Why do so many games seem so horrible with SLI?
19:56:00 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: remove me from your mailing list immediately. i know my rights!
19:56:24 <Bike> it's not sgeo's. it's the people's list
20:04:22 <Sgeo_> http://forum.notebookreview.com/ideapad-essential/718852-y500-sli-valve-source-game-engine-stuttering-fix.html
20:05:23 <Sgeo_> Using two or more nVidia graphics cards together to... I don't know how it works
20:05:34 <Sgeo_> Crossfire is the ATI equiv
20:07:00 <kmc> it used to stand for "Scan-Line Interleave" meaning one card does even-numbered lines and one does odd-numbered lines :)
20:07:03 <kmc> that's not how it works anymore
20:14:05 <Sgeo_> "Talking to someone I know who works in Nvidia, the problem with SLI on Source games lies not on the Nvidia driver but the Source engine. Valve has to fix it."
20:14:32 <Sgeo_> I have non-Source games with the same issue, doubt they're just going to get fixed when Valve fixes Source
20:16:06 <kmc> are you a hardcore PC gamer Sgeo_
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20:23:31 <mnoqy> `addquote <kmc> are you a hardcore PC gamer Sgeo_ <Sgeo_> Want to be
20:23:35 <HackEgo> 1072) <kmc> are you a hardcore PC gamer Sgeo_ <Sgeo_> Want to be
20:41:49 <zzo38> What are the most unusual donaim specific programming languages?
20:44:43 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't really know.
20:45:05 <quintopia> zzo38: are you familiar with the game "cyvasse"
20:45:33 <zzo38> I don't know if some of the things at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages might count.
20:46:41 * oerjan is reminded of bancstar
20:48:00 <zzo38> Wikipedia says "cyvasse" is a board game, but not anything else.
20:52:19 <zzo38> I know of various domain specific programming languages, but I don't know what would be the most unusual ones.
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21:02:27 <zzo38> Some things about DSL are found at http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DomainSpecificLanguage and http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LittleLanguage
21:06:56 <Gracenotes> hm, I realized what Daft Punk's Get Lucky reminds me of. The musical Grease. At least until the voice modulating bits.
21:07:55 <zzo38> Such things are mentioned such as dc, AWK, SQL, TeX. I happen to think these are all pretty good for what they are doing.
21:07:58 <quintopia> ...i don't see how it could remind you of any part of grease
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21:10:04 <Gracenotes> maybe less brass, but similar guitar riffs, chord sequences, lyrical content.
21:10:15 <zzo38> You may then even consider PostScript, vi, regular expressions, C preprocessor, sendmail, nroff, and possibly even MML and FurryScript. Maybe EXPLOR counts too, and maybe a few other things in esolang wiki (please specify, if you know?).
21:10:40 <Gracenotes> also the hook "We've come too far", very much like the title song
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21:12:06 <Gracenotes> I'm not sure exactly of the music geneology to invoke, but both are vaguely disco-ish.
21:12:18 <zzo38> Perhaps make a list of DSL and of how unusual they are, as well as other thing such as the computation class, etc
21:27:37 <ion> The first paragraph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Carton_de_Wiart
21:39:55 <Sgeo_> "SLI will shut off when you use windowed mode, even borderless windowed mode will shutoff SLI."
21:43:43 <Sgeo_> "No, it works in windowed mode. You may or may not lose performance depending on the game.
21:47:14 <zzo38> What programming languages have list variables but no scalar variables?
21:47:44 <Taneb> LISP or Fortran, maybe?
21:48:53 <Taneb> Mission accomplished
21:49:07 <Bike> oh no i've been missioned
21:51:50 <Sgeo_> Python has a partial example: It has strings, which act like lists of characters, but no characters: A character is just a string with 1 character.
21:53:26 <Sgeo_> This Portal 2 user-made map has non-euclidean geometry (besides Portals I mean)
21:53:50 <Sgeo_> Also it's not really used to confuse the player, just ... to aid in something
21:53:56 <Bike> C is a partial example: it has integers, which act like sequences of bits, but no bits: a bit is just an integer with one bit
21:54:50 <Sgeo_> You're in a room, with beach outside, walk outside of it and the beach was just painted on posters outside the room. But inside, the beach looks and has parallex like real 3d
21:55:10 <Fiora> C has bitfields, doesn't it?
21:55:45 <Bike> i'm being silly
22:09:03 <zzo38> Sgeo_: I mean variables, not types of values, though.
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22:10:21 <pikhq_> I don't know that C mandates any particular representation of bitfields though.
22:10:56 <pikhq_> As I understand it specifying a certain number of bits only dictates the set of valid values the variable in the struct may take on.
22:10:58 <zzo38> Can the latest versions of GHC support making classes of classes of classes, including class families?
22:11:28 <pikhq_> Of course, any decent compiler would just do the obvious thing.
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23:48:40 <zzo38> If I have overlapping words in a "Fwords table" such as "hello" and "lost" and then I want to pack "whellolosticks" for example, let's say I have a cost for each entry in the table too, what is an algorithm to replace sequences of characters with the references so that it lower the encoded space? (The cost of a reference is fixed and is always 2.)
00:21:53 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ canary \ delvs \ delvs-master \ etc \ factor \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ multiply.bf \ no \ paste \ pref \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom
00:21:57 <HackEgo> Python 2.7 (r27:82500, Oct 13 2010, 20:26:16) \ [GCC 4.4.4] on linux2 \ Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. \ >>>
00:23:00 <Sgeo_> `run echo "print 'hello'[0][0][0][0][0][0]" | python -
00:25:53 <Sgeo_> Changing hash values affects the order in which keys are retrieved from a dict. Although Python has never made guarantees about this ordering (and it typically varies between 32-bit and 64-bit builds), enough real-world code implicitly relies on this non-guaranteed behavior that the randomization is disabled by default.
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00:51:12 <Jafet> Writing real-world code to implicitly depend on a pseudorandom ordering is definitely an impressive skill
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04:17:05 <shachaf> ion, fizzie: what do you think of mölkky
04:55:23 <Sgeo_> I easily defeated the computer in Worms: Armageddon
04:55:29 <Sgeo_> I might be better at it than I remember
05:17:50 <zzo38> I have watched a TV show where they made up some new three player chess variant, where some cells are square and some are a triangular tesselation, where coordinates are in thirds, and there are new kind of pieces (the serpent, old woman, king's cousin, golf cart, transporter pad, time machine, and I don't know what else); however, I don't know much about it. Do you know if there are actual rules?
05:18:58 <kmc> http://www.amazon.com/Stonerware-Pot-Leaf-Chess-Set/dp/B002UL69DE
05:19:00 <kmc> saw this in a shop today
05:19:28 <mnoqy> what sort of shop are we talking here
05:19:34 <Bike> Dude, who's move is it again? The centuries old game of Kings and Queens enters the "stoner" age. Try to wrap your head around this classic game of strategy where you and your opponent do battle with only one goal in mind, to capture each others king. Keep in mind, it will take all of the braincells you have left to smoke your opponent under the table!
05:25:16 <kmc> very good thanks
05:25:46 <shachaf> mnoqy: just an ordinary shop........in san francisco
06:06:01 <Gracenotes> chess can easily go on for a very long while if you have no clue what you're doing
06:06:46 <Gracenotes> even if you remember the threefold repeat rule, you could be there til the sun collapses
06:07:04 <Sgeo_> What's a game that if you don;t know what you're doing, it goes by quickly?
06:07:08 <Sgeo_> I guess timed levels
06:07:24 <Sgeo_> Ok, so what's a midpoint between "At your own pace" and "The clock is running"?
06:07:35 <Sgeo_> Two extremes, I want the golden mean
06:07:42 <Bike> is this a song lyric (the worst song ever)
06:07:59 <Sgeo_> This is not, the worst song in the world, no
06:39:16 <zzo38> I think there are three possibilities what some recording device will do if recording a TV signal including copy protection signals in it: [A] Ignore the copy protection and record it anyways. [B] Cancel the recording and display an error message. [C] Pause the recording (and turn on/off some indicator light), and resume once the copy protection is no longer present.
06:39:41 <zzo38> I have seen DVD recorders do [B], although I think more useful and what I think it ought to do, is to offer the user a choice between [A] and [C].
06:43:21 <zzo38> (Another option which might sometimes be useful is that if [C] is selected, set the minimum time before a new index mark is recorded, and allow this number to be infinite if you don't want it to record an index mark.)
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06:56:43 <zzo38> Gracenotes: That is because there aren't many moves.
07:01:30 <oerjan> <Gracenotes> even if you remember the threefold repeat rule, you could be there til the sun collapses
07:01:40 <oerjan> <Gracenotes> even if you remember the threefold repeat rule, you could be there til the sun collapses <-- um there's also a 50-moves without capture or pawn movement rule hth
07:03:53 <Gracenotes> not a requirement, and not in all rulesets
07:12:18 <Deewiant> Threefold repetition is also an "option" in the sense that a player has to claim it explicitly
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07:15:13 <zzo38> Yes, those rules just allow the active player to claim a draw, I think. It doesn't require anyone to do anything.
07:16:11 <Deewiant> And of course you can select whatever rules you want but the FIDE rules do have the strict 50-move rule
07:17:44 <Gracenotes> I have an idea for a game. You go around the board like Monopoly, except it's 100,000,000 squares. Players start on opposite corners, flip coins to either move or not move. First player to catch the other wins.
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07:24:00 <oerjan> i think the sun collapses thing would apply to that game
07:25:52 <oerjan> or wait, what is the expected time for a bounded random walk
07:26:03 <oerjan> that's essentially what that is, anyway
07:26:32 <Gracenotes> random walks in one and two dimensions end up where they started in expectation.
07:26:44 <Gracenotes> variance grows over time, though, I believe.
07:27:03 <oerjan> yes, the question is whether it's exponentially slow or not
07:28:17 <oerjan> `frink 100000000^2 s -> year
07:29:12 <oerjan> so with one move per second and if it's just _square time, you can do it before the sun collapses. barely :P
07:30:09 <oerjan> just don't use much more than 10 seconds per move hth
07:32:36 <oerjan> ah indeed it is, with a sqrt(2/pi) factor.
07:34:36 <oerjan> \lim_{n\to\infty} \frac{E(|S_n|)}{\sqrt n}= \sqrt{\frac 2{\pi}}.
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08:53:36 <ion> shachaf: Not much. I know it but haven’t played it.
08:54:00 <shachaf> ion: I played it! It was fun.
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14:07:47 <Taneb> dO YOU SUDDENLY REALISE You have caps lock turned on?
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16:41:13 <HackEgo> olist 900: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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17:06:49 <Bike> get high as hell
17:18:04 <fizzie> Arriving few hours late on the first day shows them you're not afraid of them. (Disclaimer: bad advice.)
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17:28:46 <Gracenotes> I want to show that I am afraid of them?
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17:52:51 <fizzie> Gracenotes: Yes, they need to establish dominance.
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18:18:48 <Gracenotes> I suppose I should wear a dog collar on my first day
18:19:03 <Gracenotes> Not go anywhere unless I am led on my leash
18:19:13 <Gracenotes> That seems like the start of a healthy business relationship
18:19:34 <Fiora> I'm not quite sure that would be the message that would get across
18:20:43 <Gracenotes> oh, this is more confusing than I thought
18:24:24 <zzo38> The thing to do is to just go, unless for some reason you are unable.
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18:34:35 <Sgeo_> shachaf, yw! Especially for that thing that I didn't actually do!
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18:37:29 <HackEgo> Decent_One: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:40:04 <oerjan> <Taneb> dO YOU SUDDENLY REALISE You have caps lock turned on? <-- my old laptop had a bug that caused it to behave as if it did (or sometimes as if the control key was permanently pressed), and it could only be undone in certain windows (fortunately the putty window was one)
18:41:55 <shachaf> Sgeo_: Fine, no thanks for telling me about `olist.
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18:59:49 <kmc> Gracenotes: I know someone who wears a dog collar to their job at Google...
19:00:01 <fizzie> Huh. Someone's sent an "I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn" email -- with proper linkedin.com links, it seems -- into the email address of one of our courses (named after the course code).
19:00:13 <fizzie> Suppose it could be just an unthinking "to all contacts" thing.
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19:01:05 <kmc> yeah LinkedIn has some misfeature where it will scrape your address book and email everyone you know
19:01:27 <kmc> Gracenotes: it's a minor irritation most of the time but I guess it can help you get a job
19:01:34 <kmc> Gracenotes: don't remember if spikes or not
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19:02:32 <Gracenotes> Most people I know who wear collars occasionally seem to prefer the spikey variety.
19:03:37 <kmc> don't you have one
19:05:12 <kmc> oerjan: that is a strange bug
19:05:48 <kmc> i don't have a Caps Lock key normally but it exists briefly while switching keyboard layouts, so if I press Caps Lock during that interval it's stuck on
19:07:56 <shachaf> I have a situation like that.
19:08:20 <shachaf> lrwxrwxrwx 1 shachaf shachaf 16 Feb 23 2012 bin/DISABLE-CAPSLOCK -> disable-capslock
19:09:07 <kmc> and what does that script run
19:09:12 <Gracenotes> Is it just me, or did the CIA seem to get its hand on this pdf? http://courses.engr.illinois.edu/cs421/sp2012/project/turner-implementation.pdf
19:09:50 <shachaf> kmc: A bit of Python I got from who-knows-where.
19:10:06 <shachaf> #!/usr/bin/env pythonfrom ctypes import *X11 = cdll.LoadLibrary("libX11.so.6")display = X11.XOpenDisplay(None)X11.XkbLockModifiers(display, c_uint(0x0100), c_uint(2), c_uint(0))X11.XCloseDisplay(display)
19:10:12 <elliott> Gracenotes: first page looks cut off to me
19:10:25 <kmc> I would expect there's a cryptically named standard X binary to do that
19:10:32 <kmc> but I approve of ctypes
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19:13:28 <Gracenotes> elliott: well, this is how chrome renders it. http://i.imgur.com/N2yKfAP.png
19:15:27 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/DGXA ah, academic spam; what's not to love.
19:15:32 <FreeFull> Seems that bit is meant to be blacked out
19:15:38 <FreeFull> Although you can still copy-paste the text from underneath
19:16:15 <Gracenotes> in evince, it just renders as a black box, but the text is visible if you select it
19:17:12 <Gracenotes> I can't say why it's meant to be blacked out
19:17:27 <FreeFull> Selecting it doesn't make it visible in evince for me
19:17:42 <Gracenotes> It seems like a fault of the OCR program
19:18:48 <Gracenotes> FreeFull: http://i.imgur.com/tm6vWCw.png
19:20:30 <FreeFull> My highlight isn't red with white text =P
19:21:09 <zzo38> Well, it does look like OCR.
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19:39:31 <Taneb> Can somebody tell me what would be idiomatic Finnish for "Why the hell am I doing this?"
19:41:53 <Sgeo_> Going to attempt to fix join/part coloring
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19:49:19 <oerjan> Taneb: protip, all swearing complaints translate to finnish as "perkele" hth
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19:50:46 <oerjan> a couple more and i'll ban him
19:51:15 <HackEgo> 371) <Sgeo> Will anyone be irritated if I tend to disconnect and reconnect a lot? [...] <oerjan> we _almost_ have an established policy that bots will be banned it they do that. which means we might have to administer a turing test to sgeo, and that could get ugly.
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19:51:42 <oerjan> a couple more and i'll establish a policy that we don't need a turing test hth
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19:52:03 <Sgeo> I can live with this theme for now
19:52:43 <Sgeo> I guess I could have relocated the server list for the duration
19:55:00 <Taneb> (btw, that was for my ongoing project of a cosplay of SATW's Finland)
19:56:24 <oerjan> i thought that was ages ago
19:56:41 <Taneb> I didn't actually complete it on time
19:56:42 <oerjan> have you got a special lion yet
19:56:48 <Taneb> I guess you could say...
19:59:50 <Sgeo> I may end up disconnecting and reconnecting once around midnight
20:00:06 <elliott> unacceptable. you must now stay here forever.
20:00:21 <Taneb> elliott, do you have any blue ribbon
20:00:56 <Taneb> Do you know where I can get some blue ribbon
20:03:08 <Taneb> This is important to me
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20:16:44 <ion> http://youtu.be/0f_ec37PXNQ
20:20:53 <ion> http://youtubedoubler.com/98zb
20:22:52 <augur> this kid is disturbed
20:22:55 <augur> adorable, but disturbed
20:30:38 <Taneb> That was one of the creepiest things I have ever seen
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22:15:12 <zzo38> TURING TEST EXTRA CREDIT: CONVINCE THE EXAMINER THAT HE'S A COMPUTER.
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23:28:44 <zzo38> Yes, probably it is old. It is how I found it.
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23:54:15 <kmc> http://www.sanfranciscodays.com/photos/large/mr-burbujas.jpg
23:55:49 <shachaf> that sign really fixes your makefile, doesn't it
23:56:47 <ion> The laundromat for LSD users?
23:57:52 <kmc> i was thinking salvia actually
23:58:13 <mnoqy> imo it's pretty cool how you can see a sign and think of a drug
23:59:02 <kmc> the mural was painted over due to vandalism :/
23:59:06 <kmc> now they just have a super creepy logo
23:59:22 <kmc> can't find a good picture tho
23:59:37 * ion is watching grass grow and/or importing 5M rows into PostgreSQL.
23:59:39 <ion> 85,8MB 0:13:34 [ 135kB/s] [==============> ] 35% ETA 0:24:43
23:59:44 <kmc> also google image searching "mr burbujas" finds a decent number of extremely ripped men wearing speedos
00:00:39 <kmc> you can kind of see the logo here http://s3-media3.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/cxGNWxXViuddaSWubHoL6Q/o.jpg it's a washing machine with a three-toothed lamprey-like mouth, wearing a top hat
00:01:11 <kmc> today I found a "bike shop" that turned out to be more of a bike-themed hipster-shit shop
00:01:28 <ion> I buy hipster fæcal matter all the time.
00:01:32 <shachaf> kmc: you were supposed to reply to my question
00:01:38 <shachaf> i can't complete my pun otherwise
00:02:00 <kmc> shachaf: salvia? imo no
00:02:42 <ion> > cycle "HA"
00:02:43 <lambdabot> "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
00:02:49 <kmc> imo smoke other sage, it will smell good
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00:06:05 <shachaf> kmc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limonana
00:10:45 <kmc> have you had it?
00:10:57 <ion> I haven’t.
00:11:12 <kmc> does your IRC client automatically insert smart quotes? how does it work?
00:11:18 <kmc> do you use ``LaTeX quotes''?
00:12:07 <ion> Nope. It wouldn’t work very well without the client detecting the language i’m typing perfectly, parsing the language perfectly and applying grammar rules perfectly. I just type the “”.
00:12:24 <kmc> and how do you do that
00:12:42 <ion> altgr-shift-[, ] with the US International (AltGr dead keys) layout.
00:13:04 <kmc> ``ironic LaTeX quotes'' are the new thing for 2013
00:13:45 <ion> ski has been using ``ironic LaTeX quotes'' before it was cool.
00:13:58 <elliott> kmc: I've been doing those for years :(
00:14:19 <elliott> does this make me a trendsetter
00:14:58 <shachaf> ion: altgr-shift-, and altgr-shift-space?
00:15:13 <ion> (“detecting the language” also includes programming languages in addition to English and Finnish.)
00:15:15 <shachaf> Oh, altgr-shift-[ and altgr-shift-].
00:15:37 <kmc> there's a band named Δ which is also known as Alt-J because that's how you type it on a Mac
00:15:49 <shachaf> ion: How do you type ’ etc.?
00:16:07 <ion> shachaf: ‘’: altgr-9, 0
00:16:50 <ion> „Gutan Tag shachar“
00:17:27 <shachaf> "shachar" means "dawn" hth
00:17:48 <ion> shachaf: What does shachaf mean?
00:20:43 <kmc> use the double tall integral symbol
00:21:11 <ion> 卐 Good day, gentlemen. 卍
00:21:56 <shachaf> that was the 8x as tall integral symbol
00:22:06 <kmc> doesn't line up for me in urxvt :/
00:22:08 <ion> Almost done. 227MB 0:36:16 [ 164kB/s] [======================================> ] 93% ETA 0:02:23
00:22:13 <kmc> looks good in gedit
00:22:26 <ion> Lines up for me in gnome-terminal.
00:23:05 <shachaf> ion: doesn't combine for me :'(
00:23:35 <ion> Does your $thing render them side by side?
00:24:13 <shachaf> ion: my gnome-terminal does, yes
00:24:29 <ion> Huh. Works here.
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00:39:52 <shachaf> kmc: help monads in monoids are weird :'(
00:40:28 <shachaf> the definition is something like
00:40:41 <shachaf> a homomorphism t : M -> M, and two objects e, m : M
00:41:06 <shachaf> such that forall x: e * x = t(x) * e; m * t(t(x)) = t(x) * m
00:41:23 <shachaf> such that: m * e = m * t(e) = 1; m * t(m) = m * m
01:12:09 <shachaf> kmc: try the refrigerator hth
01:12:19 <shachaf> seems to be a popular place to put things
01:12:24 <kmc> batteries?
01:12:32 <shachaf> Oh, that was a while ago. Yes.
01:12:34 <kmc> the more channels you and I have in common, the more confusing this gets
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01:13:05 <shachaf> Well, I wouldn't want to actually make an unhelpful comment like that in-channel.
01:13:26 <shachaf> (I do know people who put batteries in the refrigerator.)
01:13:48 <kmc> it's not uncommon
01:14:08 <Fiora> I remember my family used to use the frezer
01:14:15 <kmc> i also know people who put important documents in the freezer, as a kind of poor man's fireproof safe
01:14:39 <shachaf> kmc lives with a refrigerator bandit
01:15:37 <shachaf> hmm, "bandit" is the wrong word
01:15:47 <shachaf> i mean someone who puts things into the refrigerator
01:16:13 <shachaf> like tortillas and empty egg shells and, uh, what were the other things
01:17:25 <kmc> egg shells go into the freezer to await composting
01:19:24 <kmc> SF is all about the composting. you can go to the central compost place and demand your share of the dirt created
01:19:31 <kmc> except you have no cheap way of knowing whether it's full of heavy metals :/
01:48:33 <zzo38> Is there a logic that supports varying degrees of "didn't-happen-ness"?
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02:52:00 <Bike> why do you need a center? can't you just put compost in a heap and call it good
02:52:04 <Bike> assuming you have a yard, anyway
02:55:08 <Sgeo> Why isn't Worms as popular in eSports as DotA?
02:55:22 <Bike> who gives a fuck abut e sports ever
02:55:36 <Bike> and do you want jerkass competition heads to find a way to make worms unsilly and boring
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03:43:59 <Sgeo> Am I seriously feeling nostalgic for a piece of crappy web search software from before I was 13?
03:45:54 <Sgeo> Searched via several search engines
03:46:02 <Sgeo> And noted whether each item errored
03:46:15 <Sgeo> Don't remember if it actually showed HTTP status codes
03:47:05 <Sgeo> Remember showing it to a friend. Also, that friend used dial-up while I had cable
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03:48:40 <Sgeo> Going to disconnect and reconnect soonish
03:49:53 <Sgeo> I actually have no idea how VPN stuff works, except that it makes me suddenly about to connect to websites that I couldn't connect to while not being connected to the VPN
03:50:38 <Sgeo> Hmm, that particular website is registered in DNS
03:56:05 <Sgeo> I don't think I actually disconnected
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04:27:26 <tswett> I'm starting to think this embedded language I have in Haskell here has too many combinators.
04:28:02 <tswett> There are... eleven combinators, an apply operator, and two other operators.
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05:29:08 <zzo38> What embedded language is that?
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06:51:41 <kmc> i totally remember Copernicus
06:58:46 <Bike> didn't he have a wooden nose
07:03:06 <Gracenotes> this is silly, I will be getting up at 6am to call an east coast thing
07:03:36 <Bike> did you remember to get high
07:04:00 <Gracenotes> I think I will have to skip that, didn't plan far enough ahead
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07:48:43 <Taneb> `slist EB+GG on LOLAR
07:48:48 <HackEgo> slist EB+GG on LOLAR: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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08:23:20 <Taneb> Okay, I am in way too many channels
08:23:29 <Taneb> 18 across 3 servers
08:31:58 <shachaf> I have 41 irssi windows open for my Freenode irssi.
08:32:07 <shachaf> It used to be >100, I think.
08:32:25 <shachaf> imo anything ≤19 don't even count
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10:05:26 <oerjan> <tswett> There are... eleven combinators, an apply operator, and two other operators. <-- you just need to discover that most of them are monoid, applicative or monad operations hth
10:13:44 <oerjan> <Bike> didn't he have a wooden nose <-- you are probably confusing with tycho brahe hth
10:14:04 <oerjan> apparently copernicus had a _broken_ nose, though.
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11:13:55 <elliott> oh wow, they're actually calling Linux 3.11 "Linux for Workgroups"?
11:14:07 <elliott> maybe it's just the rcs but I really hope so
11:17:12 <fizzie> [[ Still, Torvalds says that application developers are very important. They're not "real men" like kernel developers, he says, but still are "necessary" for Linux to succeed. ]]
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15:33:19 <kmc> fizzie: fuck that guy
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16:41:20 <fizzie> I'd really rather not.
17:00:05 <kmc> wowowowowow Rust lets you put trait (≈ typeclass) constraints on the free variables of a closure, as part of the function's type
17:01:01 <kmc> this is useful for (and only permitted for) traits that have special meaning to the compiler, like Copy
17:05:01 <kmc> shachaf: ^
17:07:27 * Fiora gives shachaf a plushie
17:21:34 <tswett> oerjan: ah, of course.
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17:32:13 <kmc> 'morning shachaf, Fiora et al
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18:31:21 <shachaf> kmc: you have no idea what you're info
18:36:43 <Taneb> kmc, I got a webcam!
18:36:56 <fizzie> Huh, so lame: R7RS draft 9 has dropped the number of {foo/, foo-quotient, foo-remainder} triplets to two (floor, truncate), out of draft 6's six (ceiling, floor, truncate, round, euclidean, centered).
18:37:01 <fizzie> (Though maybe they've just been moved out of the "small" language.)
18:37:07 <Taneb> And also t-shirt transfer paper
18:37:21 <fizzie> Taneb: Are you going to transfer the webcam to a t-shirt?!
18:37:54 <Taneb> Wouldn't that be cool
18:41:04 <kmc> shachaf: ?
18:41:12 <kmc> Taneb: cool, what will you use it for
18:41:21 <kmc> shachaf: a pun?
18:41:36 <Taneb> kmc, Homestuck cosplay immediately
18:41:44 <shachaf> which is the same thing as no pun at all
18:42:08 <kmc> shachaf: did you know this above Astounding Fact about Rust?
18:42:35 <Taneb> It's formed by the oxidization of iron?
18:42:49 <shachaf> Do you have an example somewhere?
18:42:52 <Taneb> It's accelerated by salt and water?
18:44:11 <kmc> already forgot where I saw it, sorry shachaf
18:45:35 <kmc> also do you want to go to the Computer History Museum sometime? have you already been?
18:46:55 <Taneb> That sounds pretty cool
18:47:03 <Taneb> I am in if you'll pay for my transport
18:47:35 <elliott> I am in with the same conditions as Taneb
18:47:50 <Taneb> elliott will come if you pay for my transport
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18:52:38 <shachaf> but could possibly go again?
18:52:45 <shachaf> i'll certainly go if you pay for Taneb's transport
18:52:53 <kmc> have you been to http://www.museemechanique.org/ ? and would you want to go
18:53:08 <kmc> "one of the world’s largest privately owned collections of mechanically operated musical instruments and antique arcade machines."
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18:56:21 <kmc> and it's near the In-n-Out Burger
18:57:23 <oerjan> is that the kind of burger that comes out as fast as it goes in
19:01:38 <kmc> no i think that would be White Castle
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19:10:16 <raineys> in brainfuck, does [ always test the byte at the current pointer? or does the tested pointer remain static through each iteration?
19:10:35 <Bike> current pointer
19:13:37 <shachaf> I had an implementation that didn't always test the currant pointer but it kept raisin exceptions.
19:14:07 <raineys> doesn't sounds like a very good implementation
19:16:22 <shachaf> well, my friend ana was the one who wrote that code. i just didn't want to insult ana.
19:18:32 <shachaf> Fiora: aren't these puns grape?
19:18:36 <shachaf> or would you say they're a bit dry
19:18:43 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
19:19:00 <Fiora> orange you glad raineys gave you the chance to make these puns?
19:23:46 <oerjan> i'd avocado stopping right now
19:23:52 <Fiora> this is a berry bad idea
19:24:37 <shachaf> i grapefruit papaya lemon watermelon blackberry
19:24:53 <oerjan> i think shachaf did that think once before
19:25:41 <shachaf> oerjan: Did you know a monad in a group is an inner automorphism?
19:26:16 <oerjan> i saw your mention of monads in monoids, decided to spare my brain hth
19:26:42 <shachaf> oerjan: your brain has not earned sparing hth
19:27:01 <oerjan> who are you, god or something
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19:30:16 * oerjan punches shachaf in the nose
19:30:33 <oerjan> been wanting to do that for years hth
19:30:59 <shachaf> are you one of those atheists
19:31:29 <oerjan> oh no, there's no use punching things you don't believe exist, hth
19:31:47 <Fiora> shachaf doesn't exist?
19:31:50 <Fiora> or does he not have a nose
19:32:23 <oerjan> i think you may be confused. this may be better than the alternative hth
19:33:12 <oerjan> Fiora: no, i'm pointing out you have to believe god exists before it make sense to try to punch him hth
19:33:18 <Fiora> but you punched shachaf
19:33:47 <oerjan> Fiora: i am sorry, he clearly answered yes hth
19:33:54 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, maybe that was unclear
19:34:00 <shachaf> oerjan: i answered yes to "something"
19:34:17 <AnotherTest> Fiora: may it be noted that it is trivial to punch someone in /the/ nose if that someone does not have a nose
19:34:31 <oerjan> ah. well i guess that's ok as i've wanted to punch _something_ for quite a while too.
19:34:38 <AnotherTest> (assuming another person - with a nose - is present of course)
19:36:56 <oerjan> AnotherTest: i am sorry, but there is nothing trivial about interpreting nonexistent "the" noun phrases. if you want to be understood, anyway.
19:37:59 <AnotherTest> oerjan: what! but the prove is analogous to the other trivial proof which - after some calculation - works out
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19:50:05 <kmc> in-n-out-amorphism
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20:24:07 <zzo38> A monad in a group is an inner automorphism? Yes, that seems right to me, although I don't know what "inner" is, here.
20:25:04 <shachaf> zzo38: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_automorphism
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20:28:19 <zzo38> Yes, it would probably have to be something like that (although I didn't prove it, but it seems like it).
20:30:12 <shachaf> zzo38: http://math.stackexchange.com/q/443847
20:30:25 <kmc> rustc is so slow :(
20:30:35 <kmc> and the unit of separate compilation is pretty coarse, at least for servo
20:31:01 <Fiora> is rustc the compiler?
20:31:15 <elliott> they should have called it rustic :(
20:31:24 <elliott> rust interactive compiler or something
20:31:34 <kmc> "Rustic" is the adjective for idiomatic Rust code, like "Pythonic" or whatever
20:31:37 <Fiora> does it use like llvm as the backend or does it have its own thing?
20:31:51 <Taneb> What's the equivalent for Haskell?
20:31:58 <kmc> haskellicious
20:53:34 <nooodl> i,i channel your inner automorphism
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21:29:34 <zzo38> Taneb: Mathematically correct.
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21:37:29 -!- kmc has set topic: 6, 21, 107, 47176870, 7.4 × 10^36534 | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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21:41:27 <kmc> maximum number of steps for a halting 2-symbol TM with 2, 3, ... states
21:41:35 <kmc> the last two are lower bounds only
21:41:52 <Fiora> http://mnxmnkmnd.tumblr.com/post/55543165531/ <--- bike, this is kind of wow @_@
21:42:09 <Bike> I know, right.
21:42:21 <Bike> "There's a theory that humans evolved flatter muzzles due to constantly palming their faces in response to stupid theories."
21:44:13 <oerjan> Bike: sadly that is lamarckianism, and thus clearly nonsense hth
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21:45:26 <Bike> oh, randomly reminded, i had a dream about a store that was probably kmc-inspired
21:45:46 <Bike> it was a glass store, all they had was glass and glass accessories, such as glass tubes and "weed hangers"
21:46:08 <Bike> they had a display with glass tubes that were bad because the government had put cameras in them
21:47:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean "even though this history occurred before cars existed" c'mon
21:47:09 <Bike> the thing i quoted is, the thing in the link apparently is not
21:47:35 <Bike> especially since it goes on with "What are the fundamental properties of sex-typed toys that make them differentially interesting to girls versus boys?"
21:48:10 <Bike> kmc: weed hangers looked like giant hairclips. please instruct me how to hang weed with them
21:48:38 <Fiora> bike I'm sorry I can't enjoy this lego set
21:48:41 <Fiora> it is insufficiently pink
21:48:48 <Fiora> and my eyes evolved to ignore things that weren't pink enough
21:52:08 <Phantom_Hoover> wait is the stuff about pink having a historically fluctuating link with gender false then?
21:52:40 <Fiora> yes, the world did not actually exist before 1950 !!
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21:53:18 <elliott> it's actually 1995 that everything started existing
21:53:24 <Fiora> that was only for you elliott :<
21:53:27 <Fiora> stop being so solipsistic!
21:53:53 <elliott> it's not my fault everyone who thinks they're older has fake memories
21:53:54 <Bike_> he doesn't have any other options
21:54:03 <elliott> can you really imagine anything before 1995??
21:54:05 <Fiora> Bike_: http://i.imgur.com/esAzEkp.png I had to change my IRC window color scheme to match the expectations of evopsychiness :<
21:54:10 <Phantom_Hoover> well no it's just oerjan said something about it being a myth
21:54:21 <Bike_> Fiora: lol it looks like dos
21:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> that might've just been the thing about them switching mid-20th century though
21:54:39 <elliott> that irssi is almost as beautiful as mine
21:54:52 <Bike_> Phantom_Hoover: (no, the thing about pink being red/manly in the past is apparently true)
21:55:40 <Bike_> "Yet it is males who suffer in our society. From boyhood through adulthood, the White American Male must fight his way through a litany of taunts, assumptions and grievances about his very existence. His oppression is unlike anything American women have faced."
21:55:45 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
21:55:56 <Fiora> bike is this parody ._.
21:56:24 <Bike> "Things are no better in college. There, young men face the perils of Title IX, the 1972 law designed to ban sex discrimination in all educational programs.
21:56:43 <elliott> also whoa Fiora has #esoteric on the correct window number
21:56:57 <elliott> take notes, people, it's meant to be window 2
21:57:14 <Bike> Fiora: it's elliottic law.
21:57:22 <Fiora> bike could you maybe not post this
21:57:56 <shachaf> the correct window number for #esoteric is 11
21:58:00 <Bike> well i already did
21:58:06 <Bike> i can't retroactively unpost
21:58:11 <Bike> or... can i..........
21:59:15 <Fiora> not post more? I don't know
21:59:22 <zzo38> My windows don't have numbers. Is that wrong?
22:01:08 <Bike> oh. well that's easy.
22:01:37 <oerjan> <Bike_> Phantom_Hoover: (no, the thing about pink being red/manly in the past is apparently true) <-- itym "disputed" hth
22:02:51 <shachaf> oerjan: are you addicted to hth
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22:03:08 <shachaf> someone should write a program to see what oerjan's record number of consecutive lines not ending in hth is
22:03:24 <oerjan> <elliott> take notes, people, it's meant to be window 2 <-- yay me too!
22:04:01 <oerjan> shachaf: no i can stop any time hth
22:04:36 <Bike> are you watching
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22:19:24 <tswett> elliott: you were born in 2010. }:|
22:19:37 <tswett> What do you think of your baby brother?
22:20:01 <zzo38> oerjan: Are you addicted to "no i can stop any time hth"?
22:28:34 <HackEgo> 173) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what <tswett> Heck yes I'm elliott's uncle.
22:28:48 <Phantom_Hoover> (for those not up to scratch with all the stupid in-jokes)
22:29:07 <oerjan> > var $ fix(("no i can stop \"" ++).(++"\" any time hth"))
22:29:08 <lambdabot> no i can stop "no i can stop "no i can stop "no i can stop "no i can stop "...
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22:38:08 <Fiora> https://github.com/mame/quine-relay/blob/master/QR.rb @___@
22:38:12 <Fiora> it's a 50-language quine
22:38:32 <Fiora> https://raw.github.com/mame/quine-relay/master/langs.png
22:38:47 <Fiora> geeez it includes BF, whitespace, verilog, and INTERCAL XD
22:39:06 <tswett> And it's only six kilobytes?
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22:40:50 <tswett> I wonder if there's a name for whatever creature that ouroboros is formed from.
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23:30:33 <elliott> Do you really want to oppress a minority? Because Finns are a minority
23:30:34 <elliott> compared to almost any other country. If you want to talk cultural
23:30:34 <elliott> sensitivity, I'll join you. But my culture includes cursing.
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23:52:28 <shachaf> I thought I overheard people talking about cache but it turned out they were talking about cash.
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23:53:36 <shachaf> i was going to make a pun about that on jul 4 but then i didn't :'(
23:56:11 <elliott> I mentally pronounced "cache" as "cash-ay" before I knew how it's really pronounced and now I can't stop
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00:28:52 <SirCmpwn> have you guys seen the super-quine yet
00:28:53 <SirCmpwn> https://github.com/mame/quine-relay
00:30:12 <Bike> oh that was you huh
00:30:56 <SirCmpwn> I have never written a working quine
00:48:02 <coppro> are quotes from other channels allowed?
00:48:18 <Phantom_Hoover> what's with the star of david in the middle of the ouroboros
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01:07:00 <Bike> http://pastebin.com/uMbB7its
01:08:37 <elliott> i went for shift and hit ~ too
01:08:49 <shachaf> do you have a ""weird keyboard""
01:09:25 <shachaf> does your keyboard look like http://www.goodtyping.com/teclatUKok.png
01:10:27 <Bike> it's an application to a forum
01:10:48 <Bike> pretty sure they're going to be let in, i like their style
01:12:21 <shachaf> elliott: ok this is double weird
01:12:24 <shachaf> or maybe even triple weird
01:12:32 <shachaf> you press shift with your right hand??
01:13:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ~: not found
01:13:18 <elliott> is the key to the right of shift
01:13:43 <shachaf> so how does your keyboard look
01:14:20 <shachaf> like this? http://kb.parallels.com/Attachments/19485/Images/wireless-british.jpg
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01:35:04 <kmc> the fact that the busy beaver sequence grows faster than any computable sequence is at once kind of obvious and totally mind-blowing
01:37:42 <Bike> sequences that grow slower than any monotonically increasing sequence are weirder, imo
01:38:07 <elliott> glad I could spread the fear of those
01:38:24 <elliott> btw you forgot "computable"
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01:39:06 <Bike> you'll figure it out
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01:40:03 <kmc> i guess some kind of busy-beaver-inverse is an example of that?
01:40:40 <kmc> f(n) = number of states needed to make a halting 2-symbol TM that runs for n steps
01:41:48 <kmc> i like that inverse Ackermann function α(n) that comes up in algorithms analysis
01:42:03 <Bike> yeah. the one i know f(x) = smallest kolmogorov complexity of y for all y >= x
01:42:05 <kmc> which you basically assume is less than 5 for any input
01:42:13 <Bike> how the hecks does inverse ackermann even come up
01:42:21 <HackEgo> 54) <oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge \ 75) <fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things... \ 109) <oklopol> but yeah i'm not exactly comforta
01:42:22 <kmc> i don't remember
01:42:26 <HackEgo> 335) <oklopol> are there boobs you wack and squeeze around to move the mouse? [...] <oklopol> like those little nipples in laptop keyboards, but they'd be full-blown boobies \ 665) <oklopol> i think i'll just take the usual route and go do post doc research somewhere far away and never come back and become a drug lord and kill myself
01:42:40 <HackEgo> 242) <oklopol> okay see in my head it went, you send from your other number smth like "i'd certainly like to see you in those pink panties again" and she's like "WHAT?!? Sgeo took a pic?!?!?! that FUCKING PIG" \ 400) <oklofok> god created the natural numbers, the rationals were done by man and the work was finally completed (topologically) by satan
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01:42:42 <zzo38> What ways are there to make C Turing-complete? Perhaps making a byte have an infinite number of bits?
01:42:47 <Bike> i mean i've heard of it obviously
01:43:09 <kmc> zzo38: IO on unseekable streams?
01:43:46 <Bike> "This inverse appears in the time complexity of some algorithms, such as the disjoint-set data structure and Chazelle's algorithm for minimum spanning trees." hey that's actually kind of noticeably a thing
01:44:34 <elliott> meanwhile, https://secunia.com/blog/372
01:45:38 <Bike> "In fact, this is asymptotically optimal: Fredman and Saks showed in 1989 that \Omega(\alpha(n)) words must be accessed by any disjoint-set data structure per operation on average" nice
01:45:47 <Bike> also nice, that pasted correctly
01:47:29 <kmc> the alpha and the omega
01:48:19 <Bike> elliott: security drama is hilarious
01:49:14 <Bike> "I think VLC mediaplayer in principle is an excelent peace of software. " i don't even know what this means. what's the VLC principle
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02:11:33 <Sgeo> Guess I should use a different video player
02:12:57 <kmc> mplayer 4 lyfe
02:14:50 <Sgeo> "World's #1 text MMO / MUD" ... "Where women wear real armor"
02:15:00 <Sgeo> Is it not possible for women to wear real armor if you can see them?
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02:15:18 <sardig> So I decided to write a cipher, see if anyone can crack it! Hints: It is all ASCII code, available via keyboard. Cipher key: (Hexadecimal) http://pastebin.com/bN7UZCGw Encrypted text: (Hexadecimal): http://pastebin.com/KuKGf7Q0
02:15:23 <sardig> Paste the ASCII deciphered(hint) result.
02:15:26 <Sgeo> http://www.projectwonderful.com/img/uploads/pics/2970-1373396333.jpg
02:15:45 <Sgeo> Also, that image does not make me think of a MUD. An MMO maybe, but not a MUD.
02:15:59 <elliott> sardig: you're that challenge person with a bunch of names right
02:16:50 <Bike> Available via keyboard
02:18:22 <kmc> sardig: you could ask in ##crypto too
02:19:14 <sardig> I could, but yarrkov does not like it.
02:19:39 <elliott> so are there any details at all as to the code here or is it just a heap of bits that you have to decode with no information about the cipher
02:20:41 <sardig> But if you ask, ill be able to assist you
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02:23:05 <Bike> alright i got this cipher
02:24:37 <Bike> Did I ever tell you about the man who taught his asshole to talk? His whole abdomen would move up and down, you dig, farting out the words. It was unlike anything I ever heard. Bubbly, thick, stagnant sound. A sound you could smell. This man worked for the carnival, you dig? And to start with it was like a novelty ventriloquist act. After a while, the ass started talking on its own. He would go in without anything prepared... and his ass woul
02:25:09 <Bike> pretty sure this message should have stayed ciphered, sardig.
02:25:55 <Bike> that's the message isn't it
02:25:59 <Bike> just a caesar cipher
02:26:00 <sardig> Bike: That is not the cipher?
02:26:10 <shachaf> that kind of challenge isn't welcome here imo
02:26:11 <Bike> well obviously it's not the cipher, you pasted the cipher
02:26:14 <Bike> it's the decrypted text
02:27:25 <sardig> Bike: What did you exactly do? That is not the message.
02:28:03 <Bike> it's just a caesar cipher, shift all the letters to the right a few places
02:28:13 <Bike> i mean you could have at least gone for vignere, made it more challenging
02:28:38 <sardig> Bike: Show us how you did it, because that is not the plaintext...
02:29:14 <Bike> what do you mean show you it's the simplest cipher in the world
02:29:22 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_cipher
02:30:03 <shachaf> imo the simplest cipher is the identity cipher hth
02:30:10 <sardig> Bike: Are you trying to troll?
02:30:25 <Bike> shachaf: that's just caesar zero.
02:30:39 <sardig> Bike: How could you shift it so quick?
02:30:48 <shachaf> ok then it's not a cipher, it's a family of ciphers!!
02:30:54 <Bike> uh... it's not like i was doing it by hand...
02:31:03 <sardig> Bike: Then show us what you used.
02:31:17 <kmc> IRC pro move: show up in a channel and immediately accuse channel regulars of trolling
02:31:35 <sardig> kmc: That is not the plaintext...
02:31:42 <elliott> you're mastring/mafingre right
02:31:42 <sardig> You can even check yourself.
02:31:58 <elliott> how can you check? you gave no details about the cipher
02:32:03 <elliott> so the plaintext could be anything at all
02:32:27 <sardig> I gave 2 details about the cipher
02:33:20 <sardig> Bike: http://realitystudio.org/texts/naked-lunch/talking-asshole/
02:33:28 <sardig> You got what you said from there.
02:33:34 <shachaf> here's the ciphertext: yxkGC3YhlRmcmr96NsKiInoDC19I5IHizprvMOeypXpX4UfH4qRsg7V3nMUfxDHXXp8FuwvtDjH7
02:33:42 <shachaf> here's the key: D6u5utqNryrIPCwQuAdlUe
02:33:56 <sardig> shachaf: Is it an actual cipher?
02:34:04 <Bike> of course it is, he said so right there
02:34:07 <shachaf> what makes a cipher actual
02:34:10 <kmc> what is government if words have no meaning
02:34:15 <Bike> and I mean, I appareciate Burroughs as much as the next guy, but it's kind of weird to just come in the channel and paste it
02:34:19 <sardig> It decodes to plaintext
02:34:39 <kmc> most things do
02:34:56 <sardig> Bike: Your attempt at trolling is not helping.
02:35:08 <Bike> why do you keep saying that
02:35:19 <sardig> Bike: You are yet to show me how you did it
02:35:37 <Bike> > map (\x -> fromEnum (toEnum x + 3) :: Char) "hello"
02:35:38 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
02:35:40 <elliott> sardig: are you mastring/mafingre, I just want to know
02:35:45 <Bike> always with the type errors
02:35:58 <Bike> > map (\x -> (fromEnum (toEnum x + 3)) :: Char) "hello"
02:35:59 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
02:36:57 <Bike> > map (\x -> (toEnum (fromEnum x + 3)) :: Char) "hello"
02:37:09 <Bike> my actual code was in python but i don't think we have a python evalbot.
02:37:28 <elliott> EgoBot is underappreciated, it does tons of languages
02:37:28 <Bike> wow where were you five minutes ago dude
02:37:37 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
02:37:48 <Bike> isn't linguine a kind of pasta
02:38:00 <Bike> yes i know ideone does, but it's so trivial i wanted it just in the channel
02:38:16 <Bike> are you like actually not aware of caesar ciphers? they're perfect to teach crypto to kids
02:38:27 <Bike> @google linguine language
02:38:29 <lambdabot> http://www.cbc.ca/thenational/indepthanalysis/rexmurphy/story/2013/02/21/thenational-rexmurphy-022113.html
02:38:29 <lambdabot> Title: CBC News - The National - Rex Murphy - On Language and Linguine
02:38:32 <sardig> Bike: So where is the key inputted?
02:38:58 <Bike> it doesn't need the key, you just put that in to misdirect.
02:39:28 <sardig> > map (\x -> (toEnum (fromEnum x + 3)) :: Char) "17e4c459841029f07a1fbeb011ba7e5d5cadb75628d1514e524ec877c34ca78241589c5849981725f89ce03f3fb273f347b21982357d43725541c936d6726677abcd143bccead76f57765168b53dc3f0268cd9"
02:39:29 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '...
02:39:59 <Bike> i don't know what you expected
02:42:11 <Bike> ok look we're obviously fucking with you, because your 'challenge' is boring and technically impossible because as shachaf implied you could use an arbitrary algorithm to have arbitrary plaintext, and playing 'guess the commonly used algorithm' is no fun. ok?
02:42:29 <Bike> plus if elliott is to be believed you're dumping this randomly into channels for some reason
02:42:30 <sardig> Bike: You were trolling.
02:42:57 <elliott> well i just find the names things curious that's all
02:43:05 <elliott> would be less curious if sardig answered :P
02:43:20 <shachaf> sardig: Are you mafingre/mastring/etc.?
02:43:32 <sardig> elliott: Who/what is that?
02:43:43 <elliott> sardig: two people with the same IP as you.
02:43:50 <elliott> who joined using the same web client as you to ask the same challenges as you.
02:44:07 <elliott> so uh, I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt there but are you actually denying you're them.
02:44:11 <sardig> I have only ever joined once as this name.
02:44:20 <sardig> Well, I live in a shared apartment
02:44:27 <Bike> oh, god, don't even do that.
02:44:50 <sardig> Live in a shared apartment?
02:45:07 <Bike> claim your roommate came in and did something objectionable (not that this is really that objectionable anyway!) when somebody notices your IP did something objectionable.
02:45:09 <elliott> ok, look, it's really really obvious that they're you.
02:45:29 <elliott> like, you can just forget that. i'll forgive you if you stop insulting all our intelligence by implying you're not them. i mean seriously.
02:45:51 <Bike> i mean, we've all been around the block a few times. as you know i am an accomplished troll, familiar with exciting troll tactics such as weird excuses and resetting my router to get a slightly different IP that is noticed in two seconds.
02:46:15 <sardig> Bike: I knew you were trolling, you were not accomplished.
02:46:50 <elliott> sardig: have I not made it clear that you're digging yourself a pretty deep hole here.
02:47:11 <Bike> look i'm sorry for being mean but seriously nobody cares about your challenge, aight
02:47:38 <Bike> you know i don't actually own Naked Lunch, I do have Junkie but it's too psychotic for me to read
02:47:56 <Bike> I should watch the movie sometime though.
02:48:05 <Bike> of naked lunch, not junkie. i don't think there's a movie of junkie.
02:50:52 <HackEgo> 2013-07-15 07:04:00: <Gracenotes> I think I will have to skip that, didn't plan far enough ahead
02:51:05 <Bike> still disappointed he didn't get high, tbh
02:51:52 <Bike> uh... around 7:04:00 apparently.
02:52:32 <shachaf> well getting hi is the beginning of any good phone call
02:53:41 <shachaf> sardig: So are you mafingre etc. or are you a different person using the same IP address joining the same channel to give the same sort of challenge?
02:54:10 <sardig> I may or may not be mafingre's room-mate
02:54:15 <Bike> no, look, don't.
02:54:29 <shachaf> sardig: Just answer the question.
02:55:40 <elliott> ok cool so what was with the whole roommate thing. I mean really. you could have just said.
02:55:40 <Bike> see, there we go.
02:56:16 <sardig> Can i ask a serious question about a project I am working on though?
02:57:20 <sardig> I am creating a messaging software (secure) And thinking of using sha256; well, the only time it uses the sha hash is to send the pass for conformation, then it uses the md5 hash of the pass as the key for the encryption (AES) , the server then uses this encryption to send the iv to the client, and then they both use the md5 hash and the iv to do any other encrypting of messages
02:57:26 <sardig> iv is a random long generated on server startup
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02:57:46 <Bike> why switch algos?
02:57:47 <shachaf> Maybe this challenge is more appropriate for ##crypto.
02:57:47 <sardig> How does that sound? is it safe/secure?
02:58:10 <sardig> shachaf: Currently banned there.
02:59:06 <shachaf> kmc: A jar? For cooking rice?
02:59:10 <elliott> what did you get banned for :P
02:59:14 <shachaf> OK, it doesn't work very well if the person isn't even in the channel.
02:59:31 <sardig> elliott: Yarrkov did not like my challenges.
03:00:16 <shachaf> Do you really want to oppress a minority? Because Finns are a minority
03:00:21 <Bike> no shachaf don't
03:00:36 <sardig> I just said he was finnish
03:00:45 <Bike> he's referencing a recent internet fit
03:01:00 <elliott> imo I gave linus one quote too many the first time
03:01:13 <Bike> anyway i suppose using the same "iv" for channels across one server invocation could be insecure, maybe the attacker can use the similarity to break encryption, or whatever
03:01:56 <kmc> (Like) Linus
03:03:05 <sardig> Bike: if we wanted, we could have a unique iv per connection
03:03:52 <Bike> hm, whatshisname (scheiner) had a free book on security didn't he
03:04:00 <Bike> free and/or i pirated it, anyway it's gonna be better than me
03:04:11 <sardig> He is the cryptography master
03:04:15 <shachaf> The IV isn't meant to be encrypted in the first place.
03:04:36 <Bike> is that a thing? i'm just reading "intravenuous"
03:04:37 <sardig> if it helps it's "AES/CBC/PKCS5Padding" (the algo we are using)
03:04:54 <shachaf> What you should be using is a high-level cryptography library.
03:05:11 <shachaf> Hmm, or maybe you are in this case. I don't know.
03:05:21 <shachaf> But you shouldn't be thinking about sha256 and md5 yourself.
03:05:40 <sardig> Would you like to see my Java code?
03:05:48 <sardig> That I have implemented for the algo.
03:05:59 <Bike> errrr do you know the first rule of cryptography
03:06:20 <shachaf> I don't especially want to help you in the first place, since you joined this channel after being banned from ##crypto, lied about who you are repeatedly, and accused people of trolling.
03:07:06 <sardig> shachaf: I accused correctly.
03:07:08 <shachaf> Also if I help you implement cryptography you'll surely get it wrong anyway -- that's how it works -- but maybe it'd be in a less obvious way, so more people would use your code. So net harm increase.
03:07:37 <sardig> Anyways back to my original question, so, yes to sha256?
03:07:50 <Bike> yeah the first rule of cryptography is don't roll your own, because you're gonna make some minor screwup and nobody's going to notice until your bank's on fire and you have to move to Guam
03:07:55 <elliott> sardig: you should drop the trolling accusation.
03:08:04 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o kmc.
03:08:09 <sardig> elliott: He even admitted to trolling...
03:08:18 <kmc> hi elliott
03:08:22 <Bike> shit, there goes kmc's voice.
03:08:27 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
03:08:36 <shachaf> kmc didn't have voice anyway
03:08:37 <elliott> Bike: ummm he hasn't had voice for like weeks
03:08:43 <Bike> elliott: imo voice me.
03:08:55 <elliott> don't you know anything about impartiality
03:09:03 <elliott> i could voice a completely random person
03:09:20 <Bike> i think you knowing anything about impartiality makes it impossible for you to be impossible about impartiality.
03:09:29 <Bike> Also impossible.
03:09:33 <sardig> md5 is used for 128bit key
03:09:39 <elliott> Bike: do you want a voice or the opposite of a voice here.
03:09:50 <Bike> i don't... what's the opposite of a voice.
03:10:22 <elliott> have you ever seen The Matrix
03:10:37 <Bike> oh, that scene.
03:10:47 <sardig> Thought it was hacker nonsense.
03:11:48 <shachaf> i'll deop myself soon thereafter
03:12:10 <elliott> i think oerjan would fire me, hth
03:13:12 <elliott> who's the opposite of shachaf in here
03:13:15 <elliott> (impartiality-related question)
03:14:14 <sardig> elliott: That is a mindless challenge
03:14:55 <sardig> Hardly, just saying not much thought would be involved
03:15:04 <sardig> It is not like it is a puzzle or anything
03:15:20 <Bike> you know sudoku can be solved automatically?
03:15:23 <Bike> like, thoughtlessly.
03:15:28 <Bike> being "a puzzle" doesn't mean anything.
03:15:37 <sardig> Bike: Yes, its not challenging
03:15:44 <sardig> You know my challenge requires thought.
03:15:47 <kmc> dude, what is thought, even, woah
03:15:50 <Bike> no, i really don't
03:15:58 <elliott> well, I think if you don't think figuring out who the opposite of shachaf is requires thought, then you don't know shachaf very well
03:16:10 <Bike> to solve your challenge i have to figure out what algorithm you used, which is mostly something i have to figure out from your personality
03:16:14 <shachaf> elliott: perhaps i'm self-dual
03:16:18 <kmc> `addquote <@elliott> well, I think if you don't think figuring out who the opposite of shachaf is requires thought, then you don't know shachaf very well
03:16:21 <kmc> shachaf: like the magestic photon
03:16:22 <HackEgo> 1073) <@elliott> well, I think if you don't think figuring out who the opposite of shachaf is requires thought, then you don't know shachaf very well
03:16:36 <elliott> btw the main thing with your challenge is that the ciphertext and key you gave don't actually add any information
03:16:42 <elliott> since the algorithm can be literally anything and do literally anything with them.
03:16:53 <elliott> the question is equivalent to "what number am I thinking of?"
03:17:11 <sardig> elliott: fizzie once solved one of my cipher challenges
03:17:13 <elliott> it was actually probably 1073 if anything
03:17:25 <sardig> I gave him the same info
03:17:28 <Bike> well the digital root of 1073 is half of 4.
03:18:00 <Bike> sardig: yes, there's a correct answer if we can guess what algorithm you used, based on what we can guess about you, and assuming you don't just lie (which, while you might not do so, is perfectly possible given the lack of constraints on the puzzle)
03:18:14 <elliott> sardig: was that in another channel or something
03:18:41 <Bike> and anyway, "I guessed what someone on IRC was thinking" isn't very satisfying to finish.
03:18:43 <sardig> elliott: It was in ##asm
03:18:51 <Bike> that seems off topic in asm...
03:19:04 <elliott> well not any more off-topic than in #esoteric
03:19:04 <sardig> Bike: Well, fizzie is a smart person
03:19:07 <elliott> anyway not all of us are as cool as fizzie
03:19:10 <kmc> can anyone decrypt this message? 8============================================D
03:19:18 <Bike> ok well #esoteric is the opposite of topical
03:19:30 <sardig> It is esoteric after all! Ha
03:19:38 <Bike> he is a smart person but i don't know what that has to do with anything really
03:19:44 <Bike> elliott: if you could insert a voice recognition joke here
03:19:55 <elliott> let's just assume I made one
03:20:09 <sardig> Has anyone met fizzie IRL?
03:20:10 <shachaf> Bike: how can fizzie do voice recognition..............when no one has voice
03:20:32 <Bike> shachaf we need to find your opposite first.
03:20:35 <Bike> to preserve the balance.
03:20:41 <shachaf> elliott: i guess i'm not very good at voice recognition..............................
03:20:44 <sardig> ##philosophy is trollsville
03:20:51 <elliott> did you ask ##philosophy too
03:21:03 <Bike> telling us about all these channels you spammed isn't really endearing.
03:21:07 <shachaf> Bike: Do you know things about boolean groups?
03:21:15 <shachaf> Bike: I.e. groups where every element is its own inverse.
03:21:20 <Bike> different sense of "endearing"
03:21:24 <Bike> shachaf: not very many things :(
03:21:36 <Bike> is there one besides GF(2)
03:21:37 <shachaf> Bike: xor is a good example!!
03:22:34 <shachaf> Are there any other good examples?
03:22:52 <shachaf> anyway it means e.g. that a+b=c <==> a=b+c
03:22:57 <shachaf> and that the group is commutative
03:23:15 <Bike> isn't there only one group of order two
03:23:45 <shachaf> The elements are of order (at most) 2, not the group.
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03:32:36 <elliott> kmc: it's great to be on top
03:33:03 <shachaf> kmc: i decrypted it and it's a kitten
03:33:19 <shachaf> not a binary encoding of a kitten, an actual kitten
03:33:44 <kmc> a christmas miracle
03:34:18 <shachaf> can't handle a kitten right now :'(
03:34:59 <Fiora> elliott can I have op too
03:35:08 <Bike> are you going to ban me :(
03:35:15 <elliott> how about we just op everybody simultaneously
03:35:22 <elliott> and whoever's left in the channel last wins
03:35:27 <shachaf> Fiora: do you even have anything to do with it
03:35:55 <kmc> managed box containing elliott
03:36:12 <elliott> I'll let you know my box isn't managed at all
03:36:18 <Bike> anyway http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/17054/group-where-every-element-is-order-2
03:36:25 <Fiora> also I want to be part of the cool @ club :<
03:36:35 <Bike> if i'm reading this right they're all whatevertheufuck-dimensional vector spaces, but i'm probably not reading it right
03:37:29 <elliott> i think the need for the @ has vanished now anyway
03:37:31 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
03:37:47 <Bike> wasn't the only need for it that you wanted to look cool next to kmc
03:37:50 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
03:37:51 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o kmc.
03:37:52 <Bike> (you failed btw........)
03:37:53 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
03:38:16 <elliott> that wasn't as good as the time I deopped shachaf in #haskell :/
03:38:58 <elliott> it was a spammer or something and we both opped and I got to it before you
03:39:31 <shachaf> and then the ban wasn't quite right or something so i had to reöp?
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04:35:57 <kmc> status: drinking scotch out of a MongoDB coffee mug
04:36:21 <shachaf> kmc: everyone seems to have those
04:37:16 <kmc> is it because mongodb is bro-scale
04:37:50 <shachaf> well i worked at a competitor
04:37:56 <shachaf> come to think of it i didn't get any mugs, though
04:38:35 <kmc> i guess you did
04:45:57 <kmc> also bought an ``e-cigarette''
04:46:07 <kmc> the tip glows blue when you use it
04:48:42 <shachaf> are you going to ``e-smoke´´ it
04:48:54 <kmc> already doing
04:49:32 <Fiora> enjoy your um, digital nicotine?
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05:05:07 <shachaf> whoa, dude, Wikipedia got a WYSIWYG editor?
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05:27:46 <Sgeo> I wish the DotA map were rotated a bit, so the DotA 2 logo would be %
05:30:30 <zzo38> How many light-hours from Earth to Pluto?
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05:39:47 <Gracenotes> shachaf: it's only been coming for, like, 8 years
05:40:47 <kmc> hi Gracenotes
05:40:50 <kmc> how's your new job?
05:41:10 <kmc> zzo38: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=distance+from+earth+to+pluto+in+light-seconds
05:41:14 <kmc> 15,714 light seconds
05:41:28 <Gracenotes> I'm busy figuring out wtf is going on.
05:41:35 <kmc> 4.365 light hours
05:41:40 <shachaf> Gracenotes: I thought you were an expert!
05:41:45 <kmc> 2.1825 heavy hours
05:41:53 <kmc> Gracenotes: me too :/
05:42:11 <kmc> chasing down a segfault in Servo, memory-safe language my ass
05:42:44 <kmc> $ grep 'unsafe' $(find -name '*.rs' -o -name '*.rc') | wc -l
05:43:44 <Bike> People I have evidence that the Chinese anticipated the men who stare at goats by over two centuries
05:43:50 <Bike> Observe: Sheep in military formation http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Receiving_the_surrender_of_the_Yili.jpg
05:43:50 <shachaf> perhaps gadts will fix your segfaults
05:44:02 <shachaf> i took five unsafeCoerces out of lens using gadts!!
05:44:12 <kmc> congratschaf
05:44:27 <shachaf> now i want to convert it to use Proxy
05:44:32 <kmc> is there a bounty for each one
05:44:48 <shachaf> Proxy as in data Proxy a = Proxy
05:44:58 <kmc> such a nice simple data type
05:45:05 <shachaf> kmc: Proxy is the best imo
05:45:07 <Bike> what's the point of that type
05:45:21 <shachaf> passing a type as a parameter, more or less
05:45:24 <kmc> shachaf: did you see https://github.com/mozilla/rust/issues/7671 :/
05:45:25 <Gracenotes> humankind is not yet advanced enough to construct lens library without unsafeCoerce
05:45:59 <shachaf> does servo use phantom types
05:46:17 <Gracenotes> shachaf: is 'a' usually higher-kinded, in Proxy?
05:46:29 <kmc> the DOM has a phantom type parameter and this is used to restrict what the script task vs. the render task can do with it
05:46:45 <shachaf> Gracenotes: Polykinded Proxy is coming, or something.
05:46:56 <shachaf> > typeOf (undefined :: Int)
05:47:19 <shachaf> It doesn't actually use its argument -- that's just used for picking a type class instance.
05:47:26 <fizzie> kmc: I'm a bit disappointed that just gives a single number, instead of some kind of time slider thing, or at least a graph. (At least it does accept "at YYYY-mm-dd" specifiers.)
05:47:34 <shachaf> But you can define typeRep :: Typeable a => Proxy a -> TypeRep
05:47:48 <shachaf> And then you can say typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy Int), no undefined necessary.
05:48:03 <fizzie> Oh, plain "distance from earth to pluto" yields a graph.
05:48:10 <Gracenotes> and it also doesn't involve any allocation. that nice.
05:48:58 <Gracenotes> well, it's a nullary constructor, the strictness analyzer might not bother setting up a closure for it
05:51:12 <Gracenotes> Anyway, I have a lot of things to learn. I have classes essentially 6-7 hours a day this week.
05:51:29 <kmc> Google-classes?
05:51:45 <kmc> how long does that go on?
05:52:23 <Gracenotes> maximal density, then half density, then less density
05:52:36 <shachaf> Gracenotes: But undefined won't get allocation either, presumably, presumably. It's just shared. Or am I wrong?
05:53:09 <Bike> do you have a class on sphere packing
05:53:33 <kmc> zeno's google classes
05:53:39 <kmc> are they interesting?
05:53:59 <Gracenotes> shachaf: hm, perhaps. different closure types for sure, if they are both closures and not optimized out by some means
05:54:34 <Gracenotes> I'm just thinking of it as analogous to [] or Nothing or especially (), around which some optimization occurs
05:55:00 <shachaf> I don't see a reason for allocation at any rate.
05:55:15 <shachaf> Especially not if typeOf gets inlined. :-)
05:57:01 <shachaf> kmc: imo rust should get rank-2 types implemented with a jit
05:57:10 <Gracenotes> "I know you have a dictionary somewhere, ghc... give it to me..."
05:57:15 <Bike> "Hales estimates that producing a complete formal proof will take around 20 years of work." christ
06:09:26 <kmc> working on it
06:09:36 <kmc> Bike: of what
06:10:21 <Bike> proof that the usual sphere packing is the most efficient
06:15:51 <shachaf> kmc: rustc takes a long time to compile rustc, too :'(
06:16:02 <zzo38> shachaf: What is "that weird one"?
06:16:45 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/pipes
06:18:36 <shachaf> Is there an easy way to generate rust tags?
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06:20:58 <kmc> i don't know of any such way
06:21:41 <shachaf> A hard way? https://github.com/mozilla/rust/issues/1731 hints at a regexp thing.
06:22:12 <kmc> i don't know of a hard way, either
06:22:20 <kmc> I just use ack-grep
06:28:38 <shachaf> The enum vs. struct distinction is odd.
06:29:00 <shachaf> There's various code in the compiler that treats them differently even where it wouldn't really seem necessary.
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06:33:04 <kmc> there do seem to be a number of things like that
06:33:42 <kmc> I was talking with sully about how traits can have type parameters, which makes them act like a poor man's MPTC, but this was only realized after the fact because there aren't enough diehard Haskellers on the Rust team :/
06:34:07 <kmc> it's not exactly like MPTC either, the last parameter is special in various ways (e.g. you can implicitly existentially quantify over it, by using the trait name as a type)
06:35:17 <kmc> also static methods of a trait are implemented differently from non-static, whereas in Haskell you can put the typeclass parameter on the LHS or RHS of -> or both and (I believe) compilers mostly don't care
06:36:14 <Gracenotes> are functions expecting traits specializable to particular types?
06:37:15 <Gracenotes> kmc: wherever the parameter is, you're still passing *in* a dictionary, yeah. (or inlining)
06:38:05 <kmc> it's the inlining one
06:39:04 <kmc> in Rust a polymorphic function is compiled separately for each instantiation, kinda like C++ templates
06:39:14 <shachaf> Is that officially part of the language semantics or only the implementation?
06:39:36 <shachaf> I guess they do a template-specialization thing, so maybe it would have to be the former...
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06:42:42 <shachaf> Presumably that's the existential thing kmc mentioned.
06:44:44 <Gracenotes> there may be benefits to universal quantification and vtables, like trading off codesize and codeperformance.
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06:46:19 <Gracenotes> although, yes, Rust is already pretty heavy on syntax for operational control...
06:51:39 <kmc> yeah, when you use a trait as a type, you end up with something like a vtable
06:51:52 <kmc> shachaf: I don't know if it's officially part of semantics
06:52:42 <kmc> anyway it's hard to compile polymorphic functions once, if the types at which they can be used vary in size and other properties
06:53:06 <kmc> Java and Haskell and such get away with it because they enforce this uniform representation where everything is a pointer to a heap object with certain stuff
06:56:15 <kmc> there's a Real World OCaml now o_O
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06:59:28 <kmc> oh and Jason Hickey is one of the authors!
07:01:18 <Gracenotes> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_cakes#Categorisation_as_cake_or_biscuit_for_VAT
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07:06:32 <kmc> that was glorious
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07:24:05 <shachaf> I should go to sleep, though, to get my sleep all fixed up.
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07:45:22 <shachaf> Hmm, enums are really treated entirely separately in the compiler.
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08:58:55 <shachaf> did you figure out any new fancy type things
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10:39:44 <oerjan> <elliott> thanks linus :| <-- did anyone suggest the compromise that he can only swear in finnish twh
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11:01:50 <oerjan> <elliott> I mentally pronounced "cache" as "cash-ay" before I knew how it's really pronounced and now I can't stop <-- i mentally pronounce it with a long a hth
11:02:21 <Taneb> I pronounce it "catchee"
11:08:15 <oerjan> a catchy pronunciation
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12:01:34 <L8D> So...Does this seem at all original? It's a semi-esoteric lang inspired by ternary operators: https://github.com/L8D/tran
12:03:36 <AnotherTest> L8D: depends... at least it's not a brainfuck equivalent
12:05:07 <AnotherTest> on the other hand... it seems a bit like "take language X and replace some symbols"
12:05:39 <AnotherTest> for most languages (definitely not all of them) the semantic of the language are what make it special, not the syntax
12:06:04 <L8D> I originally started with the idea of a javascript equivalent in which could be efficiently minimized
12:07:17 <oerjan> @tell elliott <elliott> who's the opposite of shachaf in here <-- i suggest Vorpal hth
12:07:21 <L8D> I wanted something that would be easy and fun to write in....instead of an actually useful one
12:08:04 <AnotherTest> I'd say very original languages are usually totally different (and thus not based on) any existing language
12:08:05 <L8D> I'm planning on it being a symbiotic language of js
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12:08:44 <AnotherTest> L8D: so maybe not the most original, but don't really care about that as long as you're having fun
12:10:58 <L8D> even though I don't do much javascript programming, I really like how it feels "vintage"
12:11:22 <L8D> but still will behaive like a modern language when you need it to
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12:14:07 <oerjan> @tell shachaf boolean groups are basically vector spaces over GF(2), i think. which means they're determined up to isomorphism by the cardinality of their vector basis.
12:14:49 <oerjan> @tell shachaf so, basically just xor with your chosen no. of bits, which can be transfinite.
12:22:51 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> if i'm reading this right they're all whatevertheufuck-dimensional vector spaces, but i'm probably not reading it right <-- you were reading it right hth
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13:12:53 <Jafet> My vectors have א₁ bits
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13:57:58 <Jafet> @oeis 6 21 107 47176870
13:58:37 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
13:59:04 <lambdabot> The simplest sequence of positive numbers: the all 1's sequence.[1,1,1,1,1,1...
13:59:19 <Jafet> That's pretty subjective
14:01:22 <boily> what could be simpler?
14:03:03 <boily> (meanwhile, http://www.theweathernetwork.com/alerts/high-alert/canada/quebec/montreal. it is stuffy, damp, humid, hot, steamy, sultry, and otherwise not fun outside.)
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14:04:28 <boily> Jafet: I think it may count as only a degenerate case.
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14:27:04 <lambdabot> Numerator of Bernoulli number B_n.[1,1,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,5,0,691,0,7,0,3617,0,...
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14:40:47 <Bike> well, as infinite sequences go, 1,1,1,... is impressively trivially computed.
14:42:50 <Jafet> > iterate ([]:) []
14:42:52 <lambdabot> [[],[[]],[[],[]],[[],[],[]],[[],[],[],[]],[[],[],[],[],[]],[[],[],[],[],[],...
14:43:23 <lambdabot> Expansion of Jacobi theta function theta_3(x) = Sum_{m = -infinity..infinity...
14:43:33 <Bike> see, that's hard.
14:44:20 <boily> I stand correctquenced.
14:45:30 <lambdabot> The natural numbers. Also called the whole numbers, the counting numbers or ...
14:46:23 <lambdabot> Digital sum (i.e. sum of digits) of n.[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9...
14:54:58 <lambdabot> Number of distinct primes dividing n (also called omega(n)).[0,1,1,1,1,2,1,1...
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15:08:10 <AnotherTest> I'm beginning to fear that there's something wrong with oeis...
15:10:19 <Taneb> @oeis 1, 2, 4, 8, 15
15:10:21 <lambdabot> Cake numbers: maximal number of pieces resulting from n planar cuts through ...
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16:05:19 <lambdabot> Length of shortest Golomb-like (for sums of triples) ruler with n marks.[0,1...
16:11:08 <kmc> shachaf: what do you think of the fact that in Rust you can dereference a pointer with & as well as *
16:11:12 <kmc> by using & on the LHS of a pattern match
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17:33:27 <AnotherTest> @oeis 6, 21, 107, 47176870, 7.4 × 10^36534
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18:02:10 * kmc reads about Pierre Trudeau
18:03:07 * boily senses a great disturbance in the Canadian force
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18:11:36 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, have you read enough to determine whether he exists
18:17:14 <zzo38> I have played a game called CthulhuMUD. It is very sophisticated, with a large number of skills, spells, professions, and areas available (but a small number of races). A local single-player open-source version (some things are not applicable and would not be implemented, of course), might be interesting to have; in such case, to also have permadeath and real ephemerides. Real ephemerides is what I would want such thing to have.
18:17:54 <zzo38> There are other MUDs; DoorMUD isn't quite as sophisticated though and not as interesting really. (I found all of these on X-BIT.)
18:19:26 <metasepia> In astronomy and celestial navigation, an ephemeris (plural: ephemerides; from the Greek word "diary", "journal") gives the positions of astronomical objects in the sky at a given time or times.
18:21:22 <kmc> llvm[5]: Compiling LegalizeIntegerTypes.cpp for Release+Asserts build
18:21:38 <zzo38> There are software libraries, such as Swiss Ephemeris, but I don't know that that one would be suitable in this case, since as far as I can tell it does not calculate the rotation of Pluto.
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18:26:11 <zzo38> It would be good to have the ephemerides for all the planets and dwarf planets; that way, even if there is nothing on those planets, since it is open-source someone will certainly add stuff onto those planets/dwarf planets including the newly discovered ones.
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18:38:28 <boily> do we have higher-order moons in our Solar System? like moons orbiting moons orbiting moons orbiting planets and whatnots...
18:39:30 <itsy> There's an asteroid with a moon
18:40:23 <zzo38> boily: I don't know. Maybe it is interesting to know.
18:41:49 <boily> a quick search yields country music: http://www.amazon.com/High-Moon-Order-Betse-Ellis/dp/B00CMYX3J2
18:41:58 <boily> zzo38: ↑ is that what you had in mind?
18:42:13 <shachaf> kmc: You can? What does that do?
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18:45:04 <itsy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysnomia_(moon)
18:45:10 <boily> http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-04/could-moon-have-moons
18:45:20 <AnotherTest> boily: heh, I was just going to paste that
18:45:50 <Bike_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_satellite#Satellites_of_satellites source of all knowledge
18:46:07 <boily> so rank N moons *could* exist, but they're a kind of grue. (or bleen, if you prefer.)
18:46:12 <AnotherTest> "A moon’s moon will tend to be a short-lived phenomenon." :(
18:46:26 <boily> the Universe is a sad, inconsiderate place.
18:46:56 <AnotherTest> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_list_of_lists
18:47:33 <boily> elliott: well, yes, but finland has also cute TREES.
18:47:37 <AnotherTest> I'm a bit disappointed that they don't have a list of lists of lists of lists though
18:48:34 <shachaf> That's what I get for using /last.
18:50:18 <AnotherTest> Hm. I didn't know about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disambiguation_%28disambiguation%29
18:51:21 <Bike_> an irssi command to grep your scrollback.
18:51:41 <shachaf> oeran: That's not too surprising. Self-inverse is a pretty odd property.
18:56:09 <boily> @tell oerjan shachaf is saying things to you about self-inversion, oddities, and properties.
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19:19:49 <elliott> help, I click a link to a conal blogpost on #haskell and oerjan is mentione.
19:20:45 <shachaf> well, conal is isomorphic to oerjan
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19:55:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32171
19:59:14 <olsner> hmm, finland can't not have its own fermented fish product
20:00:46 <fizzie> I don't think we have one.
20:02:06 <fizzie> Some people eat lutefisk (which is kind of nasty too), but even that's not particularly "Finnish", I think.
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20:02:31 <boily> fizzie: I thought it was from Norway?
20:02:53 <olsner> lutfisk seems to be shared across all the nordic countries
20:02:55 <fizzie> boily: I guess it mostly is, but the other nordic countries partake.
20:03:23 <fizzie> "While some enthusiasts[1] claim the dish has been consumed since the time of the Vikings, most[who?] believe that its origins lie in the 16th-century Netherlands.[citation needed]" quality encyclopedia
20:03:54 <boily> do we even have fermented fish products here...
20:04:06 * boily goes on a quest to find Canadian Fermented Fish
20:05:01 <fizzie> The "Fermented Fish" article lists preparations with origins of {Filipino, Egypt, Ancient Roman, Iceland, Korea, Inuit, Japan, Greek, Manipur India, Thailand, Norway, Swedish, Yup'ik} only.
20:05:19 <olsner> inuit might apply to parts of canada
20:06:55 <boily> there's igunaq, but it's from walrus.
20:08:57 <fizzie> Wikipedia claims Igunaq is not explicitly walrusian.
20:09:02 <fizzie> (That was the Inuit example.)
20:10:20 <fizzie> (It does still say "other marine mammals", which makes me wonder what it's doing in the fermented fish article.)
20:10:51 <boily> another fine example of the Mysteries of the Great White North.
20:11:49 <olsner> I guess it means walri (and "other marine mammals") are also fish
20:12:46 <olsner> or they become fish when fermented?
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20:13:49 <boily> but then, the Chinese call walri «海象», which are sea elephants.
20:14:34 <olsner> "sea elephant" is just how they write "big fish"
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20:35:54 <kmc> am i justified in skipping a mailing list thread where even the first message contains the word 'bikeshedding' in the subject
20:36:28 <Bike> nothing is true and everything is permitted
20:36:35 <boily> only if you can choose the colour of the skipped thread.
20:36:45 <kmc> i think my mail client allows that yes
20:37:01 <boily> I think blue is a nice colour.
20:38:04 <kmc> http://blue.bikeshed.com/
20:38:26 <elliott> kmc: is it about rust's awful syntax
20:39:00 <kmc> here read this whole thread and tell me if it's worthwhile, tia https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-July/004804.html
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20:39:28 <olsner> you might still want to watch the thread in case entertaining pointless arguments pop up
20:39:41 <elliott> well this is advocating implicit string conversions and varargs as an alternative to presumably-unsafe printf style formatting
20:39:44 <kmc> this is Work for me though
20:39:46 <elliott> imo tell them it's all shit
20:39:57 <kmc> if I want to watch entertaining pointless arguments it'll be something fun on my own time
20:40:04 <kmc> elliott: it's a macro, not varargs
20:40:11 <kmc> like I said, did not read thread
20:40:16 <Fiora> http://violet.bikeshed.com/ I wonder how many color options this site has?
20:40:21 <kmc> but fmt!() is a macro
20:40:24 <Lumpio-> Check the source code, Fiora.
20:40:45 <olsner> before reading the thread is the best time to join the bikeshedding, "unbiased by actual information"
20:40:51 <Bike> whitesmoke looks a lot like white
20:41:04 <boily> my eyes. they hurt.
20:41:04 <kmc> whitesnake
20:41:19 <Fiora> http://mediumslateblue.bikeshed.com/
20:41:26 <Fiora> that... looks more purple than blue
20:41:48 <elliott> http://papayawhip.bikeshed.com good
20:41:51 <Bike> looks blue ot me
20:42:02 <Bike> i think you're just purple-biased
20:42:48 <Fiora> maybe my monitor isn't very good
20:42:49 <kmc> yes i like that one elliott
20:42:57 <oerjan> <elliott> help, I click a link to a conal blogpost on #haskell and oerjan is mentione. <-- wat
20:43:03 <Fiora> okay this is weird
20:43:06 <Fiora> http://violetred.bikeshed.com/ this is teal on firefox
20:43:10 <Fiora> but magenta on chrome o_O
20:43:12 <elliott> oerjan: http://conal.net/blog/posts/a-handy-generalized-filter
20:43:17 <kmc> yeah it's cyan for me in ff
20:43:19 <Bike> yeah looks magenta to me
20:43:32 <kmc> use this to defeat user agent snooping :O
20:43:38 <kmc> er spoofing
20:43:40 <olsner> aah, it's probably that thing where unrecognized names get interpreted as hex by filtering out non-hex digits
20:44:13 <kmc> olsner: sometimes i really hate the web
20:44:18 <olsner> violetred would be eed then
20:44:37 <Bike> that's an impressively bad silent failure right there.
20:44:53 <Fiora> http://evilbrainjono.net/pages/startup-or-pokemon.py oh gosh, someone linked this at work
20:45:05 <boily> kmc: the web is great. the web feeds all. the web is like jell-o that is *way* past its best before date.
20:45:21 <olsner> web is the little death that obliterates all?
20:45:24 <kmc> ah yes, like the parable of jesus feeding the masses with expired jell-o
20:45:55 <Bike> apparently Twilio is a startup :(
20:45:56 <boily> `addquote <kmc> ah yes, like the parable of jesus feeding the masses with expired jell-o
20:46:00 <HackEgo> 1074) <kmc> ah yes, like the parable of jesus feeding the masses with expired jell-o
20:46:21 <Bike> "Communications power business. Twilio powers communications."
20:46:34 <Fiora> it's like... it's like a corporate chat thing?
20:46:35 <kmc> yes they're reasonably well-known
20:46:40 <kmc> no it's an API for telephone shit
20:46:50 <kmc> you can make/receive calls, send/receive texts, etc
20:46:53 <kmc> implement fone menus
20:46:54 <Bike> Get building in minutes with your own twilio phone number.
20:47:15 <Bike> Now I have to check the other ones.
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20:47:29 <Bike> Nila is the industry leader in environmentally sustainable, high-brightness LED fixtures durable enough to meet the needs of the harshest production situations.
20:47:38 <kmc> i was kind of dismayed by how many of these i recognized (startups, not pokemon, back in my day there were only 151 pokemon, thanks a lot obama)
20:47:47 <Bike> that reminds me that i was reading the website of this company that did nothing but make fasteners and force sensors and stuff
20:47:54 <Bike> they had a few pages on stuff they'd put in mars rovers
20:47:59 <Fiora> I should know more pokemon >_< I kind of don't know a lot from gen 3 and 4 I think
20:48:32 <Bike> Habbo I knew from encyclopedia dramatica. And they say you can't learn anything from trolls
20:48:37 <boily> the pokemon that can be named is not the true pokemon.
20:48:52 <Bike> is the only true pokemon missingno.?
20:49:03 <Bike> "Explore Freebase Data" freebase is a drug term right
20:49:04 <kmc> Fiora: imo learn about mushrooms instead
20:49:15 <kmc> we're going to grow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitocybe_nuda . they're /purple/
20:49:37 <Bike> "Freebasing is also the consumption by smoking of free base cocaine (crack cocaine) or heroin." aha
20:49:43 <Bike> is there a gameboy game about mushrooms
20:49:47 <Bike> imo that would increase their popularity
20:49:51 <shachaf> Or you could learn about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suillus_granulatus
20:50:11 <Fiora> kmc: but but can I go on a mushroom adventure and train up my mushrooms to become the mushroom master
20:50:26 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know, but there is the information to write a GameBoy game, if you want to do so.
20:50:37 <shachaf> kmc: are you a mushroom master
20:50:51 <zzo38> Fiora: I don't know all the pokemons either beyond first generation; they often complicate things a bit much
20:50:54 <boily> grilled mushrooms on the bbq...
20:51:05 <Fiora> I want my fairy type pokemon *_*
20:51:18 <boily> anyone here ever grilled any fairy?
20:51:41 <kmc> mushrooms from a fairy ring?
20:51:51 <shachaf> mushrooms form a fairy ring?
20:52:57 <kmc> lots of kinds can grow in rings, I think
20:54:19 <Bike> Fiora: a "fairy ring" what a ring of mushrooms is called
20:55:15 <Bike> so called because they look p. mysterious and people thought they might be the work of fairies
20:55:44 <boily> so if fairies can't be bbqed, can they be campfired?
20:55:49 <Fiora> so a field of mushrooms is a special type of fairy ring?
20:55:53 <Fiora> since fields are a type of ring
20:56:20 * boily slaps Bike with a fermented marine mammal
20:56:41 <olsner> aah, are those fairy rings? we call them witch rings here
20:57:32 * boily continues to ferment Bike *slosh* *slosh* *slosh* :D
20:57:44 <Bike> "omg , you totally should try trisquel in your PC you will free proud using it ... free as in freedom"
21:02:22 <tswett> Heh. There's this certain sentence that Douglas Hofstadter wrote. I remember it was along these lines:
21:02:34 <tswett> "This sentence, despite containing many nonstandard words, is still perfectly possible to comprehend."
21:03:06 <tswett> Some of the words were replaced with nonsense words. But I've forgotten the nonsense words and now all I remember is their intended meanings.
21:04:16 <fizzie> "This gubblick contains many nonslarkish English flutzpahs, but the overall pluggandisp can be glorked [sic] from context."
21:04:38 <fizzie> (David Moser, quoted by Douglas Hofstadter in his "Metamagical Themas" column in the January 1981 Scientific American.)
21:05:22 <fizzie> (It's quoted in the "glark" entry of the Jargon File / The New Hacker's Dictionary, which is where I remember it from.)
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21:12:48 <boily> with all this talk about nonslarkish meals, I'm hungry.
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21:38:47 <oerjan> <olsner> I guess it means walri (and "other marine mammals") are also fish <-- i hope you know that's not an etymologically correct plural hth
21:47:00 <kmc> aw boily left I can't ask what kind of mushrooms they grill
21:48:29 <shachaf> kmc: As a form of protest you should use one-variant enums rather than structs whenever you don't care about memory layout.
21:49:58 <oerjan> <kmc> http://blue.bikeshed.com/ <-- ooh nice
21:51:27 <kmc> ah the printf bike shedding conversation is more interesting than i thought
21:51:35 <kmc> they point out that format strings are good for internationalization
21:52:09 <olsner> oerjan: what a silly thing to hope for
21:52:35 <kmc> ok and then there are some shitty emails
21:58:02 <kmc> shachaf: did you know rustc's name mangling is compatible with g++'s? so you can use c++filt
21:58:53 <shachaf> I've already used c++filt when trying to read rustc-generated code.
21:59:00 <shachaf> The code was still confusing.
22:01:27 <shachaf> Takes a while to get used to any compiler-thing's generated code.
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22:05:24 <kmc> also it takes a while to get used to e.g. the output of gcc when the input is the Linux kernel
22:10:25 <kmc> they do some strange things
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22:22:43 <zzo38> I think a kind of post-processor might be a useful thing to have in C, such as for making data tables in an efficient format.
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23:08:48 <Bike> "If any provision of this Agreement is, or is found to be, unenforceable under applicable law, that will not affect the enforceability of the other provisions of this Agreement. " terms of service are so weird
23:13:36 <Fiora> is that one that weird?
23:14:42 <Bike> well it's basically saying "in the event some parts of this contract can't hold"
23:15:00 <kmc> almost every contract has that
23:15:12 <Bike> really, i'd never seen it before.
23:15:40 <elliott> I like that because it means they have no reason not to just put everything they can think of in there
23:15:54 <elliott> "we'd also like your firstborn if we can get away with it but if not forget we asked"
23:16:28 <Bike> yeah when i say "weird" i don't mean like, "uncommon", so much as "wow this does not seem like something i personally would think is okay"
23:16:32 <kmc> when i went skydiving I had to sign something to the effect of I would never sue them under any circumstance BUT even if I was able to sue them somehow, damages would be capped at $x
23:16:56 <kmc> in addition to signatures they also videotaped each of us saying that we agree to x y and z
23:17:12 <Bike> i guess they must get a lot of litiggation.
23:17:28 <kmc> and they made us read a summary of a court case where somebody had sued them and lost
23:17:52 <kmc> and affirm that we had read it
23:18:07 <kmc> then I got into an airplane and jumped out of the airplane, while strapped to some other dude
23:18:20 <kmc> so all in all it was a strange day
23:18:46 <Bike> http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/why-kotakus-nerd-shaming-article-made-me-uncomfortable here is a url that exists and points to a real document
23:19:15 <Bike> kmc, well, i hope you had fun, both in the airplane jump and in the later eight month legal case
23:19:21 <Gracenotes> Terms of Service are one of those areas not tested much in courts
23:19:44 <Gracenotes> When they are, it is usually almost always in favor of users, rather than providers
23:20:16 <kmc> i think I was in more danger in the airplane going up frankly
23:22:28 <Bike> alright i'm making it time for me to post sci-fi papers again: http://arxiv.org/abs/1307.2196 "Neural Dust: An Ultrasonic, Low Power Solution for Chronic Brain-Machine Interfaces"
23:22:52 <Bike> basically the idea is they dump a few thousand micrometer-wide bots into your head to record your brain activity.
23:23:06 <Bike> this is apparently not insane?
23:27:47 <kmc> seems legit
23:28:55 <pikhq_> Seems like a simple engineering effort.
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23:29:47 <Bike> well when i say "bots" i apparently mean a CMOS with an antenna stuck to it.
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23:36:46 <Bike> oh boy, it's based on ultrasound instead of electromagnetics.
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23:37:27 <HackEgo> ggghhhujik: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:37:33 <Bike> ultrasound for power is... new to me.
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23:49:15 <kmc> that's neat
23:51:09 <Bike> the circuit is supposed to be 20 µm squared O_o
23:51:18 <Gracenotes> someone should write a CFG- or L-system-generated welcome
23:51:50 <Bike> i'm no good at electronics but i am under the impression that most ICs are rather larger
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23:52:56 <pikhq_> I was under the impression that that was a process size once upon a time.
23:52:56 <Lumpio-> You can fit hundreds of transistors side by side in 20µm
23:53:04 <Lumpio-> If all it does is transmit something simple it could be done
23:53:19 <Lumpio-> Yeah CPU processes for instance are approaching 10nm
23:53:31 <pikhq_> I did say "once upon a time". :P
23:54:16 <Lumpio-> Or well, I have no idea if it can actually be done or how it would actually work, but it doesn't sound completely implausible.
23:54:57 <Lumpio-> ICs are "large" mostly because they need enough surface area for bond wires (and if you're talking about the physical packages, those are huge for... physical reasons.)
23:55:11 <Bike> i said i'm no good at electronics! :P
23:55:25 <Bike> but yeah it's not just a transmitter, it's got to be able to figure out what neurons are doing in the middle of a brain
23:55:28 <Bike> p. noisy environ
23:55:42 <pikhq_> Bike: Not necessarily.
23:56:06 <pikhq_> It's gotta be able to emit enough information that what the neurons are doing can be figured out.
23:56:18 <Bike> i'm just echoing the paper, yo
23:56:28 <pikhq_> This probably is only doable with the little things actually doing some amount of computation, but hey.
23:58:02 <Bike> "Since the power available to the implant has a fixed upper bound (see above), the reduction of extracellular potential amplitude as the neural dust dimensions are scaled down in the presence of biological, thermal, electronic, and mechanical noise (which do not scale), causes the signal-to-noise (SNR) ratio to degrade significantly; this places heavy constraints on the CMOS front-ends for processing and extracting the signal from extremely n
00:03:19 <Bike> they say the smallest one known right now is 100 µm²
00:07:49 <Fiora> Bike: http://bwiklund.github.io/ant-simulator/
00:10:45 <shachaf> hey, remember http://lpaste.net/52660 ??
00:11:29 <Bike> these ants are kind of dumb
00:11:31 <Bike> pretty trails though
00:27:07 <Fiora> Bike: http://www.astro.sunysb.edu/astro/seminars/archive/JS09/jcl27Feb09-1.pdf also for you~
00:27:17 <Fiora> (sorry, I don't have a non-pdf link)
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00:29:35 <Bike> now this is my kind of paper
00:31:27 <Bike> http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2010-190
00:31:36 <Bike> i like how they interview the guy to say how exciting life on Titan would be
00:31:52 <Bike> as if anyone wouldn't be excited. well, you SHOULD be excited, says scientist
00:33:03 <Fiora> okay so bike likes alternative biochemistries
00:33:52 <Bike> yeah when i was like 16 i read a nonfiction book on alternative biochemistries "the rest is history"
00:34:12 <shachaf> hmm a fiction book on alternative biochemistries sounds better imo
00:34:22 <Bike> well i've read those too
00:34:33 <Bike> like schild's ladder, though i guess that's more "alternative chemistries"
00:34:44 <Fiora> what would you call Flux?
00:34:49 <Fiora> alternative... bionuclearchemistries?
00:35:06 <kmc> ooh ants are pretty
00:35:09 <Bike> well i mean, if you take generalized chemistry to mean something with reactants and all
00:35:27 <Bike> you can call schild's quarkshit as "alternative chemistry", and the same with dragon's egg or whatever?
00:36:04 <Bike> i also read one of the sector general books which is pretty fun
00:36:22 <Bike> "doctor, how can we cure lupus in a sapient methane cloud"
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00:53:45 <Bike> it's a sci-fi book series about a giant hospital that gets weird aliens, is all.
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01:15:25 <zzo38> I have a "fwords" table, with some overlapping entries (such as "hello" and "lost"). What is the algorithm to efficiently encode a string by converting things into references to fwords table?
01:16:34 <Bike> so like, you have "hel2" "2st" "2: lo" in the table...?
01:19:25 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, such things might be in the table, and then maybe you want to encode "hel2: lost" for example...
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01:37:23 <kmc> http://coyot.es/crossing/2013/07/09/20-amazing-true-facts-about-introverts-and-extroverts/
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01:39:27 <Bike> it's called a ganglion, extroverts!!
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01:40:23 <Fiora> "Introvert hair is made of keratin, the same proteinaceous material that makes up your horn if you’re a rhino."
01:40:31 <Fiora> see, I'm an introvert! take that
01:42:40 * Fiora waves her display of keratinous fibers around
01:44:20 <Bike> q: how do introverted rhinos deal
01:47:33 <Fiora> bike this is a question that just came up between elliott and I
01:47:36 <Fiora> where did hair variation come from
01:47:40 <Fiora> like why do humans have such vastly different hairs
01:47:51 <Fiora> like, fingernails are pretty much almost the same.
01:47:54 <elliott> thank god we have a biologist.
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01:48:06 <Fiora> like what is it with hair specifically o_O
01:48:10 <elliott> brace yourself for my speech recognition questions fizzie
01:48:13 <Bike> well i don't know if you've noticed but some other external features vary a lot
01:48:15 <Bike> for example, skin
01:48:36 <Fiora> I guess so? but like everyone has pretty similar fingernails and those are the other keratin things
01:50:18 <Bike> ok more serious answer
01:50:25 <pikhq_> Most of the difference between different sorts of hairs is just the cross-section.
01:50:56 <Fiora> as in, like, the thickness?
01:51:11 <Fiora> hairs aren't round?
01:51:17 <pikhq_> Straight hair is round.
01:51:41 <Bike> hm, now i realize i don't know how hair is colored
01:51:54 <Bike> i'm guessing it's not through actually coloring keratin...
01:52:15 <Fiora> it's melanin isn't it...? or...
01:52:29 <Bike> well yeah but what's it coloring
01:52:58 <Bike> "All natural hair colors are the result of two types of hair pigment. Both of these pigments are melanin types, produced inside the hair follicle and packed into granules found in the fibers."
01:53:16 <Fiora> so black hair is just a whole lot of eumelanin
01:53:35 <Bike> anyway my point was going to be that ccoloring fingernails would be harder to implement.
01:54:13 <Bike> i mean from my understanding fingernails are just a plate of keratin
01:54:17 <Bike> hairs are more complicated
01:57:26 <Fiora> wow, reading the wikipedia article
01:57:36 <Fiora> it sounds like our best scientific ideas are really wildly speculative @_@
01:57:53 <Fiora> like, for the evolution of curly hair (mammalian hair is normally straight)
01:57:58 <Bike> for what, the prettiest nail colori- oh
01:58:07 <Fiora> and the evolution of straight hair again (after the diaspora of homo sapiens from africa)
01:58:07 <Bike> shit yeah, i'm a mutant! unexplainable by modern science!
01:58:17 <elliott> imo it would be pretty cool if people had different coloured nails
01:58:30 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_hair#Texture <-- here's your evolutionary biology!!!
01:58:35 <Bike> they're transparent, you'd have to have a different color of skin there
01:58:37 <Bike> is what i was getting at
01:59:17 <Bike> "While some might argue that, by this logic, humans should also express hairy shoulders given that these body parts would putatively be exposed to similar conditions," evolutionary biology is the best
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01:59:27 <elliott> look Bike, if biology can't make them not transparent then that's biology's problem
01:59:30 <HackEgo> smlist (412): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
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02:00:00 <Fiora> huh, so they've mostly confirmed that east asian coarse/straight hair evolved within the past 65000 years
02:00:02 <Bike> so what we need to do is set up a eugenic breeding program to develop nail colorings, is what you're saying.
02:00:19 <Bike> frankly african genetics seem kind of scary to me
02:00:25 <Bike> i mean you have khoisians and pygmies
02:00:28 <Bike> that's like, super diverse!
02:00:41 <Bike> make the rest of us look like conformist punks.
02:01:26 <Fiora> wow, "afro-textured hair" is actually the scientific term
02:01:58 <Bike> "IIn the 19th century, a distinguishing feature of Khoisan women was considered to be their tendency for steatopygia.[20] This belief contributed greatly to the European fascination with the so-called Hottentot Venus." 19th century human biology is hilarious
02:02:06 <Bike> "what's the distinguishing trait of these people?" "hot asses"
02:04:15 <Fiora> "these people have smaller heads, so they must be dumber than us, who are intelligent enough to decide that head size is a good indicator of intelligence"
02:04:48 <pikhq_> Biggest head is best head.
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02:05:22 <Fiora> ironically I guess that means the scientists doing that
02:05:32 <Bike> recent human evolution is weird shit though, i mean look at lactase
02:05:39 <Bike> what the fuck is that.
02:07:15 <Fiora> thank you genetics for the wonders of lactase
02:07:27 <Bike> i'm a big fan of lactase
02:08:11 <Bike> what i'm getting out of this wikipedia section on hair evolution is that we don't know shit and are throwing out tons of guesses.
02:08:37 <Bike> «However, inclinations towards deeming hair texture "adaptively trivial" may root in certain cultural value judgments more than objective logic. In this sense the possibility that hair texture may have played an adaptively significant role cannot be completely eliminated from consideration.» like
02:09:43 <Fiora> I like how darwin was like "maybe there wasn't anything to it at all"
02:11:09 <elliott> I assumed it would just be some nonsense about different kinds of hair evolving to stand out and ~attract mates~ or whatever
02:11:12 <elliott> good thing nobody has any idea.
02:12:10 <Fiora> the fiber optic UV thing is too amusing
02:12:56 <elliott> I have no idea what you're referring to but I just had a vision of fibre optic hair
02:14:55 <pikhq_> Sounds like great networking technology.
02:15:08 <Fiora> the thing where they theorized straight hair conducted UV better for vitamin D (?!?)
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02:20:04 <Sgeo> Why are there so many people who have my name?
02:20:13 <Sgeo> A Hardcore Pawn guy, a gay DJ, Christ...
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02:28:12 <Bike> elliott: there's that too (re: nonsense), i'm just not quoting it.
02:32:27 <Bike> Fiora: i don't think darwin talked about hair, they just meant that generally as genetic drift and so on. Pro Biologist Tip: if darwin's being mentioned outside of a historical context you can pretty much ignore the surrounding sentences
02:33:28 <Bike> you may or may not recall that darwin's book on human evolution was so outdated and Victorian that I gave up on it
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02:58:28 <Bike> http://hmarco.org/bugs/CVE-2013-4788.html whooops
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03:17:41 <kmc> wow whoops
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03:21:25 <kmc> lactase is cool, lactase persistence is cooler :)
03:21:56 <kmc> in western society we think of "lactose intolerant" as a kind of minor disorder but really it's the rest of us who have the recent unusual mutation
03:23:08 <Bike> yeah, i've tried to switch my vocab around.
03:23:37 <kmc> also you can take pills with lactase in them so that's cool
03:23:51 <kmc> the modern world: 10,000 problems and a pill for each one
03:24:56 <Fiora> I wonder how complicated the genetics of lactase persistence are
03:25:02 <Fiora> like it seems to vary exactly how intolerant people are
03:25:50 <kmc> luckily there exists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmental_regulation_of_lactase_expression_in_mammals
03:26:06 <Bike> thank goodness
03:26:27 <Fiora> 1 million base pairs? @_@
03:27:11 <Bike> maybe unpersistent people have it but it isn't activated
03:27:25 <kmc> yeah lactase is shareware
03:27:46 <kmc> and we europeans have evolved a crack
03:27:51 <Bike> i mean their kids can still drink it, yeah.
03:28:00 <Fiora> I know my mom was somewhat intolerant but like not completely so
03:28:10 <Fiora> like she ate some cheese and stuff but never drank milk or anything
03:28:51 <kmc> my friend just eats cheese anyway and then takes it out on us by farting continuously
03:29:07 <Bike> admirable plan
03:29:35 <Fiora> wait, explain? @_@
03:29:39 <Bike> my book on burma didn't really cover animal domestication, i guess that would help
03:29:50 <kmc> dunno, dairy makes him fart
03:29:57 <kmc> I thought this was a common effect of lack of lactase
03:30:03 <kmc> slash low levels of it whatever
03:30:51 <Fiora> geez in retrospect this must have been why my mom thought it was a little odd that I never stopped drinking milk since for her that would have been normal
03:31:00 <Fiora> but my dad always ate cereal with milk in the mornings
03:31:41 <Bike> "Chinese and Japanese populations typically lose between 20 and 30 percent of their ability to digest lactose within three to four years of weaning. Some studies have found that most Japanese can consume 200 ml (8 fl oz) of milk without severe symptoms (Swagerty et al., 2002)." trying to imagine this study
03:32:09 <Bike> "here's a huge pile of cheese. how much of this can you eat without vomiting"
03:32:47 <kmc> presumably presented in the form of a game show
03:34:36 <Bike> apparently lactase persistence is basically absent in native americans. i did not know this.
03:35:47 <Bike> also "Native Americans however, have a significantly higher rate of alcoholism than average; it is unclear why this is the case.[76] Other risk factors such as cultural environmental effects e.g. trauma have been proposed to explain the higher rates of alcoholism among Native Americans compared to alcoholism levels in caucasians.[77][78]" great
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03:46:30 <Gracenotes> the solution: make bacteria that don't eat lactose
03:53:47 <Gracenotes> "Around 30 million years ago, the earth’s warm, moist climate became seasonally arid. This shift favored plants that could grow quickly and produce seeds to survive the dry period, and caused a great expansion of grasslands, which in the dry seasons became a sea of desiccated, fibrous stalks and leaves.
03:53:52 <Gracenotes> So began the gradual decline of the horses and the expansion of the deer family, the ruminants, which evolved the ability to survive on dry grass.
03:53:55 <Gracenotes> [...] Ruminants produce milk copiously on feed that is otherwise useless to humans and that can be stockpiled as straw or silage."
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03:58:02 <Bike> fun fax that are the basis of modern civilization?
03:58:55 <Gracenotes> well, more likely fun fax about agriculture than about dairying
04:00:25 <Fiora> actually that should be
04:07:08 <kmc> i'm reading about plans to build a new airport for London in the Thames Estuary and one of the obstacles is that the estuary contains a sunken WW2 cargo ship with 1,400 tons of unexploded ordnance o_O
04:07:13 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery
04:07:31 <Sgeo> I did not know until today that 8" floppies existed
04:07:41 <Bike> WWII was a hell of a thing, eh
04:07:50 <Bike> wow, you can see the masts.
04:07:52 <kmc> ships like this going every which way all the time
04:07:57 <kmc> some of them blew up in ports
04:08:28 <Fiora> Sgeo: that was back when they were actually *floppy*, right?
04:08:43 <Sgeo> I think the 5.25" were floppy
04:08:48 <Bike> Christ, it has blockbuster bombs
04:08:59 <Sgeo> I should sleep
04:09:11 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_artificial_non-nuclear_explosions
04:09:56 <Bike> reading about halifax is rather harrowing.
04:10:13 <Bike> huh, i didn't know the parthenon was destroyed in a modern war
04:11:39 <Bike> freaking turks.
04:11:53 <Sgeo> They're rebuilding the Parthenon apparently
04:14:17 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Chicago_disaster "An Army Air Forces pilot flying in the area reported that the fireball was 3 mi (4.8 km) in diameter"
04:14:43 <Gracenotes> also, the colosseum was destroyed in the great Spartan-Athenian war
04:15:37 <Bike> " Most of the dead and injured were enlisted African-American sailors." FDR doesn't care about black people
04:16:00 <kmc> indeed "The Navy asked Congress to give each victim's family $5,000. Representative John E. Rankin (D-Mississippi) insisted the amount be reduced to $2,000 when he learned most of the dead were black men."
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04:16:13 <kmc> super classy
04:16:29 <Bike> democrats more like racistocrats.
04:21:41 <Gracenotes> heh. first comment on an article about hyperloop: "Not in my backyard!"
04:22:51 <Sgeo> I'm a minute run away from a train station
04:22:53 <Sgeo> It's convenient.
04:23:02 <Sgeo> ....did I just effectively tell esoteric where I live?
04:23:23 <Bike> yes but we don't care
04:24:52 <Gracenotes> hm, really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMBY#BANANA
04:25:52 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAVE_People
04:27:29 <Gracenotes> wow, I hadn't tried it before, but the new mediawiki wysiwyg editor is very slick
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04:31:57 <shachaf> kmc: It's actually called the Hundred of Hoom Railway.
04:32:06 <shachaf> But no one gets the name right.
04:36:53 <shachaf> kmc: help how do i prepare for job interview
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05:13:59 <zzo38> Someone suggested removing sizeof from C would make it to be Turing-complete. Would making it so that a byte has an infinite number of bits make it Turing-complete?
05:14:25 <elliott> how do you define CHAR_BIT?
05:15:33 <zzo38> I suppose as (unsigned int)(-1) or something like that. What version of C is CHAR_BIT defined in?
05:16:22 <elliott> C89 and C99 and C11, afaik
05:16:38 <zzo38> O, so that's all of them, I suppose.
05:17:01 <zzo38> Still, what I suggested might work? Does it work?
05:19:10 <elliott> what would (unsigned int)(-1) be?
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05:19:26 <zzo38> Sorry my computer was crashed
05:19:49 <elliott> what would (unsigned int)(-1) be?
05:21:22 <zzo38> It would be all (infinte number of) bits set, I suppose.
05:21:45 <elliott> I suspect unsigned int is required to be a rather more conventional type of integer
05:22:10 <Bike> C should be extended with p-adics, obv
05:23:37 <zzo38> This isn't even all of p-adics, though, but it is a special case of one
05:24:02 <Bike> pretty easy to do bitwise arithmetic on 'em, perfect for C
05:28:02 <zzo38> Yes. That is what I am saying, how to make a C to be Turing-complete, if this would work. I don't really know that (unsigned int)(-1) would be the correct value for CHAR_BIT, though, in such case... it should be the logarithm but I don't know that there is even a such things
05:28:05 <Bike> I guess representing surds would be annoying.
05:28:36 <Bike> I think if you're talking about a turing complete C you can forget stuff like CHAR_BIT.
05:30:55 <zzo38> But I want to adding/removing stuff as few as possible; can it be done without forgetting stuff like CHAR_BIT?
05:31:22 <Bike> how about work something out and then add CHAR_BIT and shit like that back in.
05:32:05 <elliott> Bike: the whole point of talking about a turing complete C is to be pedantic.
05:32:11 <elliott> why would you ignore CHAR_BIT?
05:32:22 <Bike> imo, i hate you.
05:32:39 <Bike> have you all seen the relevant HAKMEM entry?
05:32:55 <zzo38> Is there a relevant HAKMEM entry? What number is it?
05:37:28 <zzo38> Yes, I have seen that, although I figured out the conclusion about algebra independently too
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05:53:49 <kmc> sometimes browser history autocomplete reminds me of the best things, like http://drilbert.tumblr.com/
05:54:53 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/653a5a3738a955c2261e618720d3d2f5/tumblr_mov5xyyjR81sou3fto1_250.png ugh, i've been scooped.
05:59:25 <Bike> compare and contrast: http://25.media.tumblr.com/7ba349e5889b12f74f3298b49ec6be1a/tumblr_mlf8nwyrKD1sou3fto1_r1_500.png http://25.media.tumblr.com/5dc653403c87e50c45d88228d685d143/tumblr_mfnwniHK091rlynuno1_500.jpg
06:01:15 * kmc practices blowing smoke (well, vapor) rings
06:01:45 <shachaf> kmc: I saw someone doing that today.
06:01:48 <Bike> "@drymangobird thbe NSA is really good. but it could be bad? please dont write any opinions about it until ive solved this" satire on the media
06:02:29 <shachaf> Bike: have you noticed that tumblr picture urls are really long and ugly hth
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06:03:15 <Bike> tumblr is also really long and ugly.
06:03:25 <kmc> shachaf: do you know what they were smoke (or, vape) ing?
06:03:39 <shachaf> No, I just saw them through the car window.
06:03:47 <shachaf> And then a second person went into the car and they drove off.
06:03:58 <kmc> probably a drug deal
06:04:34 <shachaf> what are you smoke (or, vape) ing
06:15:54 <kmc> watermelon-flavoured not-tobacco
06:15:57 <kmc> something containing nicotine
06:18:06 <kmc> <zzo38> O, so that's all of them, I suppose. <--- you of all people I would expect to program in K&R C
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06:26:05 <shachaf> kmc: are you addicted to nicotine now :'(
06:28:16 <kmc> shachaf: don't think so
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10:46:34 <Jafet1> Just use C++, then you get a turing-complete language at compile time.
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11:43:12 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> yeah when i say "weird" i don't mean like, "uncommon", so much as "wow this does not seem like something i personally would think is okay" <-- i think the point of this clause is that it is very hard for the writer of the contract to ensure that no provision of it is illegal and unenforceable in _any_ jurisdiction, and it would be unreasonable for the whole contract to become void because of that.
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12:19:31 <oerjan> "Otherwise identical twins who are Introvert and Extrovert must be kept separate and never allowed to come into physical contact." <-- oh so that's what's up with elliott and Taneb
12:26:20 <oerjan> i feel that this thing that came up when i googled something from that article may also be relevant to this channel http://www.gadflyonline.com/10-29-01/comm-introverts.html
12:27:08 <oerjan> (it has finns _and_ introverts. wait, i'm being redundant.)
12:44:57 <Taneb> Finnish Jews in the USA
12:45:42 <Taneb> I sometimes think I don't fit into the boxes with regards to the vertiness
12:45:57 <Taneb> But then I realise I'm really extroverted, I just don't get invited to stuff
12:56:48 <Taneb> And also I nap when I am bored
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13:00:35 <boily> good humid morning!
13:01:44 <Taneb> Humidity in Hexham was over 50% this morning
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13:16:51 <boily> Taneb: it's only up to 74% this morning. it's going to get worse until the thunderstorms.
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13:22:33 <boily> you can spot who bicycle in the morning very easily.
13:32:12 * boily particles to Fiora
13:37:12 * itsy quarks to boily
13:37:33 * Fiora interacts weakly with boily
13:39:21 <itsy> Noooo... everything changed now you observed :-(
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13:51:06 <boily> there was that hypertrain video featured on boingboing some time ago (http://vimeo.com/68546202). the tune got stuck in my head, and yesteray I learned that you can jamendo the album: http://www.jamendo.com/en/list/a98191/solar-storm
13:51:24 <HackEgo> olist (901): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
13:57:20 <Gracenotes> so, it appears as though I am buying shaving supplies by just choosing the first item listed in an Amazon search for it
13:57:53 <Fiora> wynaut is a pokemon
13:58:33 <HackEgo> olist (555): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
13:58:38 <Gracenotes> I was going to write wynaut, but I figured that would be obvious
13:59:13 <olsner> hmm, don't they usually have shaving supplies in super markets?
13:59:39 <Taneb> olsner, Gracenotes is stockpiling
13:59:48 <Gracenotes> no, I am trying to get fancy shaving supplies
13:59:56 <Taneb> The supermarkets are already empty of shaving equipment around there
14:00:01 <Gracenotes> like a badger brush and stuff. poor badgers.
14:00:11 <boily> shachaf: I am intrigued by the number.
14:00:22 <Fiora> Gracenotes used Stockpile!
14:00:28 <Fiora> Gracenotes stockpiled 1.
14:00:32 <shachaf> boily: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html
14:00:38 <olsner> shachaf: dunno, haven't asked him
14:00:56 <boily> shachaf: oh, right. I had forgot about the ootsness of the olist.
14:01:25 <Gracenotes> there's kind of a triple of paraphernelia: brush, mug, and soap
14:02:22 <Taneb> This reminds me, I kinda need a shave right now
14:03:23 <shachaf> Gracenotes: You should get non-badger things.
14:08:09 <boily> I'm still on the electric side of the Shave. /r/wicked_edge is very tempting, and I bought a kit for my dad's birthday last week.
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14:12:36 <Taneb> I'd say leather is a bit weirder than wool
14:16:19 <oerjan> boily: i went non-electric after my razor short circuited the other week
14:18:07 <oerjan> mainly because the local grocery shop, which i think is too small to be considered a supermarket, had non-electric ones.
14:26:37 <elliott> Vatican offers 'time off purgatory' to followers of Pope Francis tweets
14:26:38 <elliott> Papal court handling pardons for sins says contrite Catholics may win 'indulgences' by following World Youth Day on Twitter
14:27:25 <coppro> 2008 was pretty stupid
14:27:53 <Fiora> I guess they're partying like it's 1517?
14:28:33 <boily> someone should rig an arduino to measure ambient stupidity, and put realtime graphs on the intarwebs.
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14:54:26 <Gracenotes> didn't that catholic church stop threatening their adherents with purgatory not too long ago? as matter of doctrine, or something?
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14:59:20 <Lumpio-> >implying religion isn't already at max stupidity to begin with
15:00:38 <elliott> thanks for your contribution.
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15:01:58 <Gracenotes> the issue is that early christians didn't think that far enough ahead; they invented hell to convert people, but had no doctrinal basis for subjugating those who were already converted
15:03:07 <Gracenotes> It's just like when an underground indie band signs with a major label... you lose that connection to your fans and end up threatening to torture them and send their dead relatives to hell
15:03:54 <Taneb> Scott Pilgrim was a great movie
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16:10:39 <Bike> looks like catholicism still has purgatory.
16:11:04 <Bike> 2005: "Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven."
16:13:56 <zzo38> Yes, it always has had, for a long time, I think.
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16:29:44 <kmc> i think they got rid of limbo but not purgatory
16:55:06 <boily> limbo is not the same as purgatory?
16:56:43 <Bike> Limbo is part of hell
17:36:28 <zzo38> I do not believe any of that is sensible or necessary or even helpful.
17:37:58 <zzo38> The biggest greed is wanting an afterlife.
17:38:24 <zzo38> (Actually, the biggest greed is wanting an afterlife and taking everything with you, but I am ignoring this for the sake of this purpose.)
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17:52:29 <kmc> Limbo is like Hell Lite where unbaptized people who didn't really do anything wrong go
17:52:57 <kmc> zzo38: what do you think of Pascal's Wager?
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17:54:36 <tswett> The biggest greed is wanting literally everything.
17:55:23 <kmc> also http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/02/rokos-basilisk-wants-you.html
17:56:22 <Taneb> Minkowski space: Virgin Galactic makes a ski resort for dwarf cattle
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18:13:10 <Bike> kmc: oh, that's the backwards causality thing? fucking hilarious drama there, imo
18:13:37 <boily> oh, stross has a blog? :D
18:14:28 <kmc> Taneb: what
18:14:30 <Bike> yeah, it's pretty good
18:15:04 <Bike> i'm kind of glad he can write about transhuman stuff and not be a "rationalist" dumbass
18:15:47 <Bike> i wonder why he says neural tube specifically. what about the poor jellyfish
18:16:02 <boily> I have his Redshirts epub somewhere, now I need to find my e-reader and charge it.
18:16:29 <boily> jellyfishes are food. sponges are food. I think rocks are food, but I'm not sure.
18:16:49 <Bike> well fish are food and they're chordates too.
18:18:08 <Bike> not that i've heard
18:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> ok so have you read any of his '20 minutes into the future'-type books
18:19:06 <Bike> does the one with socialist crustaceans count i read that one
18:19:19 <Bike> accelerando that's the title.
18:19:37 <Phantom_Hoover> basically i tried a couple and i stopped after like a chapter because he tends to set them in edinburgh and he insists on writing scottish accents phonetically for some reason
18:20:03 <Bike> oh, yeah, you've mentioned that.
18:26:28 <kmc> i wonder what Bike has against "rationalists" (there are many valid answers)
18:27:28 <boily> kmc: oh, btw, how's P. E. Trudeau's existence going?
18:27:44 <Bike> mostly being so far up their own rectums they make AI into a moralist wet dream and don't even work in the damn field. (also bayesianism ew)
18:27:49 <coppro> boily: it exists, I've been there
18:28:10 <Bike> and i mean have you read yudkosky.
18:29:03 <boily> coppro: the problem is, you're Ontarian. we need somebody uncanadian to objectively judge his existence.
18:31:20 <coppro> boily: no really, I've been there
18:31:20 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montr%C3%A9al%E2%80%93Pierre_Elliott_Trudeau_International_Airport
18:31:38 <boily> oh, you're talking about the airport.
18:32:22 <boily> of course it exists. a very nice airport, I must say. and you have Montréal surrounding it!
18:32:37 <boily> it's just a shame that they changed its name from Dorval to PET.
18:33:22 <coppro> I've also seen progeny of Trudea
18:33:57 <coppro> been within three feet of his spawn
18:34:00 <olsner> are you sure they were progeny?
18:34:28 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXARrMadTKk conveniently shared
18:34:33 <coppro> his spawn was in a hurry
18:34:39 <coppro> like he was some celebrity or something
18:38:59 <kmc> what's wrong with bayesians
18:40:28 <Bike> well, nothing, really, if you're not crazy like yudkowsky, but i'm more sympathetic to frequentism.
18:41:38 <Bike> http://vserver1.cscs.lsa.umich.edu/~crshalizi/weblog/606.html
18:46:54 <kmc> "The theme here is to construct some simple yet pointed examples where Bayesian inference goes wrong"
18:47:01 <kmc> presumably you can do the same for frequentist statistics?
18:47:24 <kmc> it's kind of absurd that people are expected to pick an ideological side between bayesian and frequentist and then apply that technique in 100% of cases
18:48:09 <Bike> well, not expected really
18:48:22 <Bike> just in "cares about obscure epistemology issue" land
18:48:40 <zzo38> kmc: I think Pascal's wager isn't really very good, because the things it considers isn't important and doesn't really prove anything anyways. There is also the reverse (which I have seen called "Rachel's Wager", so I will call it that), but that isn't very good either.
18:48:55 <Bike> in my high school stats class probability was defined bayesianly and then we went ahead and used entirely frequentist methods and nobody cared because it works and it's high school
18:49:23 <Bike> stuff like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindley's_paradox is still interesting though!
18:50:20 <kmc> zzo38: what's the reverse?
18:51:09 <zzo38> kmc: That you will go to hell for acting stupid if you believe in God.
18:51:22 <kmc> what do you mean?
18:51:31 <zzo38> Some people prefer it, but I think both ways are no good.
18:52:49 <Bike> there's http://arxiv.org/abs/1006.3868 if you actually care i guess
18:52:53 <Bike> also a billion other papers on it
18:58:14 <elliott> kmc: presumably "god loves atheists and hates believers, punishes appropriately, so you should not believe in him"
18:58:26 <elliott> that one is kinda more contradictory than pascal's wager though :P
18:58:32 <elliott> like "this sentence is true" vs. "this sentence is false"
19:07:36 <Bike> what's contradictory about it
19:08:25 <Bike> also i think i misrepresented myself, i don't care so much about the philosophy stuff (though obviously i pay some attention), what really annoys me is when people think bayesian methods are how human reason works, which seems all kinds of implausible to me for unphilosophical reasons
19:08:32 <Bike> i'm just incoherent and cna't explain myself, woe
19:09:11 <boily> ah, there are other places in the world with exclamation marks in their names: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westward_Ho!
19:10:29 <Bike> lol nice etymology
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19:28:22 <metasepia> CYUL 171900Z 21016G21KT 15SM FEW045 FEW160 SCT240 33/24 A2998 RMK CU1AC1CI2 SLP152 DENSITY ALT 2000FT
19:29:36 <boily> we're at apocalypse minus 5400 seconds.
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19:40:13 <kmc> how do ya figure
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19:48:32 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: oh, he meant me. sorry.
19:49:04 <boily> I peeked at the TAF. +TSGRRA coming in at 5pm EDT (9pm UTC).
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19:50:34 <boily> thunderstorm, hail, rain. the + means “holy fungot of doom”.
19:53:23 <kmc> static PrototypeClassName__: [u8, ..21] = ['W' as u8, 'i' as u8, 'n' as u8, 'd' as u8, 'o' as u8, 'w' as u8, 'P' as u8, 'r' as u8, 'o' as u8, 'x' as u8, 'y' as u8, 'P' as u8, 'r' as u8, 'o' as u8, 't' as u8, 'o' as u8, 't' as u8, 'y' as u8, 'p' as u8, 'e' as u8, 0 as u8];
19:53:27 <kmc> i love generated code
19:53:45 <kmc> it's great working on open source because I am free to paste anything amusing at y'all
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19:56:16 <AnotherTest> I've always wondered whether that's actually a human thing
19:56:37 <kmc> this is Rust not Java
19:56:47 <Bike> kmc: for a second i thought that was bytecode.
19:57:05 <zzo38> I think having built-in code generator to a programming language would be useful things to have. Including both preprocessors and postprocessors.
19:57:09 <kmc> we have 'pub', but I'm still not sure what you're getting at
19:57:12 <Bike> What's the ..21, the length?
19:57:22 <elliott> rust syntax is like c++ except all the words are shorter
19:57:27 <Bike> > length "WindowProxyPrototype\0"
19:57:42 <kmc> this code is generated from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_IDL
19:57:51 <AnotherTest> kmc: the name of the class made me think java
19:58:05 <kmc> it's nice that the Web platform is specified (partially) in a machine-readable format
19:58:50 <elliott> The syntax of IDL files is fairly well documented in the Web IDL spec, but it is too formal to read, as Chromium project documentation states.[2]
19:59:25 <elliott> the best part is the citation
20:03:42 <kmc> it doesn't really do inheritance at all
20:04:17 <kmc> there's almost no subtyping either
20:04:18 <AnotherTest> I thought it did static polymorphism though?
20:05:08 <AnotherTest> so what determines whether you can have static polymorphism for a given object?
20:05:30 <Bike> is static polymorphism really a quality of "objects", i'm confused
20:06:16 <kmc> i don't understan AnotherTest's question either
20:06:22 <kmc> although I'm also trying to pay attention to something else
20:06:39 <kmc> there are "traits", they are kind of like type classes or interfaces, you can implement them for data structures
20:06:48 <AnotherTest> not sure if we're talking about the same thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_metaprogramming#Static_polymorphism
20:06:52 <kmc> you can also have data structures with type parameters
20:07:15 <kmc> I don't know of any equivalent to CRTP in Rust...................
20:07:51 <AnotherTest> Well, that would just be a way of achieving it
20:07:55 <Bike> i was assuming parametric polymorphism
20:08:12 <kmc> so yeah traits are resolved statically
20:08:26 <kmc> because there's no subtyping, so no distinction between static and dynamic type
20:08:41 <kmc> the exception being when you existentially quantify over a trait, which happens implicitly by using it as a type name
20:08:46 <kmc> that is vtable-like, I think
20:09:00 <elliott> is there any way to get proper general existential quant
20:09:10 <elliott> kmc this language is kind of gross
20:09:16 <kmc> not gonna argue with that
20:09:24 <kmc> it's not haskell, if you want haskell you will be disappointed
20:09:28 <kmc> it does some things haskell can't
20:09:55 <elliott> sitting over here wanting haskell
20:10:10 <AnotherTest> kmc: traits are kind of like mixins right?
20:10:37 <Bike> elliott you'll never work for Mozilla at this rate.
20:10:39 <kmc> I don't really like explaining language features by answering questions of the form "they're kind of like X right?" where X is something I haven't used
20:10:52 <Bike> i'm pretty sure if you're talking about mixins without inheritance you are not going to get any useful analogy at all
20:11:08 <Bike> since like what does that even mean
20:11:09 <kmc> every language is a bit weird dood
20:11:19 <AnotherTest> elliott: I have not claimed that C++ isn't ;)
20:11:22 <Bike> snobol is the one true language that isn't weird at all, hth.
20:11:34 <kmc> Rust is very unusual though, almost no other language tries to give you precise control over allocation and be memory-safe at the same time
20:11:36 <metasepia> SNOBOL (StriNg Oriented and symBOlic Language) is a series of computer programming languages developed between 1962 and 1967 at AT&T Bell Laboratories by David J. Farber, Ralph E. Griswold and Ivan P. Polonsky, culminating in SNOBOL4.
20:12:13 <kmc> yeah unique_ptr is a clear inspiration for Rust`s ~ pointers but the C++ version is not statically safe in all cases
20:12:21 <elliott> C++, known for its memory safety
20:12:36 <AnotherTest> elliott: did you know GC is optional in C++11?
20:12:44 <AnotherTest> (note: optional, so nothing really changed)
20:12:47 <kmc> like if I move out of a unique_ptr and then try to dereference it later in the same scope
20:12:49 <Bike> what does that mean
20:12:55 <kmc> Rust will give a compiler error in that situation
20:12:59 <Bike> like GC is optional in C by some measure, isn't it
20:13:20 <AnotherTest> kmc: if you move out of a unique ptr, does this mean you are a pointer?
20:14:08 <AnotherTest> I don't really understand what you mean with "moving out of a unique_ptr"
20:14:24 <AnotherTest> do you mean getting the underlying pointer?
20:14:37 <kmc> no I mean calling a function with a unique_ptr argument, thereby transferring ownership to that function
20:15:13 <kmc> no i *do* want to transfer ownership, I just want the compiler to know that I've done so and complain later that I don't own the object anymore
20:15:20 <kmc> this is what I mean by "unique_ptr is not memory safe"
20:15:47 <kmc> and that's what Rust can do, by building unique ownership into the language deeply
20:17:28 <elliott> can rust handle more complex ownership situations
20:17:35 <elliott> like someone having read-only access and someone else having rw-access simultaneously
20:17:42 <AnotherTest> but suppose I want to transfer ownership based on some input, how would the compiler know what I'm doing?
20:17:53 <kmc> mutability is tracked
20:18:17 <AnotherTest> so it's not really a compile time thingy or is it
20:18:28 <kmc> AnotherTest: good question, I think if you want to use an owned thing after an 'if', it has to be not moved out by either branch
20:18:33 <kmc> similar to other type things
20:19:01 <kmc> the other major innovation in Rust is that you can "borrow" pointers to owned things (or GC'd things, or things on the stack) without transferring ownership
20:19:07 <kmc> and these borrowings are also statically checked for safety
20:20:15 <kmc> with one exception: when you borrow a pointer to a mutable GC'd box, it needs to be frozen dynamically
20:20:44 <kmc> because you don't know statically who else has access to such a box
20:21:27 <kmc> so if you hand out a borrowed pointer to a mutable GC'd box, and later try to mutate it, that can fail at runtime
20:22:03 <AnotherTest> will the compiler check for conditions that can never be met?
20:22:09 <kmc> what do you mean
20:22:21 <AnotherTest> eg. if I have if(true) else transferOwnership(); other things here
20:22:36 <kmc> i don't think so
20:22:42 <Bike> is that an actual concern
20:23:32 <kmc> not sure that rustc even does dead code elimination; mostly optimizations are handled by LLVM on the backend
20:23:42 <Bike> i'd say if the compiler can figure a condition is always met it should probably warn you...
20:24:01 <kmc> there are a lot of warnings, e.g. it will warn you if you declare something mutable and then don't mutate it
20:24:28 <AnotherTest> Bike: yeah, but for loops that's not always wanted
20:26:00 <AnotherTest> while(true) { transferOwnership(); break;} is it ok to use the pointer now?
20:27:23 <kmc> I don't know the fine points of the checker; obviously it has to be conservative (like basically any static analysis)
20:28:07 <AnotherTest> I find that static analysis has false positives sometimes
20:28:25 <kmc> if (proveRiemannHypothesis()) { transferOwnership(); }
20:29:00 <kmc> we don't expect the compiler to verify the riemann hypothesis in order to accept this code
20:29:16 <Fiora> if (collatzConjectureHasACycle())
20:29:18 <kmc> it can just reject the code even if it's actually safe
20:29:33 <kmc> i don't think this is an important criticism of the approach
20:29:38 <elliott> a program that halts if the RH is true would be pretty interesting
20:30:20 <Fiora> halting if RH is false is a lot easier, right?
20:30:48 <Bike> yeah, i thought this was like, the entire point of static analysis
20:30:49 <AnotherTest> kmc: you don't happen to have static if right?
20:30:52 <Bike> it's in TAPL's introduction, man.
20:31:14 <kmc> if you find that valid programs are rejected a lot *in practice* then that's a problem
20:31:20 <elliott> (I doubt such a program exists beyond the obvious "any program that halts, assuming the RH is true")
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20:32:07 <AnotherTest> kmc: well, if you had templates for example, this could become a problem
20:32:26 <AnotherTest> because then you'll have a lot of situations where code will always be true or false
20:32:27 <Bike> Guest41525: what sense of "exists" you talkin
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20:33:06 <Bike> elliott_: what sense of "exists" you talking ELLIOTT YOU PIECE OF SHIT YOU BETTER READ THE LOGS
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20:33:21 <kmc> AnotherTest: there is polymorphism, it's implemented like templates
20:33:29 * boily slaps elliott like an old CRT TV that has circuit problems and gets bad signal
20:33:50 <kmc> don't think you can get away with writing a polymorphic function which fails the ownership checks and then only instantiating it on things which, when constant folded, happen to be safe
20:34:05 <AnotherTest> kmc: I mean when you start comparing types
20:34:05 <kmc> I'd be really interested to see a practical example of something like that
20:34:33 <AnotherTest> kmc: this could be achieved with std::enable_if
20:35:01 <AnotherTest> but again, C++ doesn't do this, and I don't think it would ever be possible to add that to the current language
20:35:37 <coppro> wait, what are you trying to do?
20:35:49 <coppro> something stupid in C++?
20:38:08 <AnotherTest> kmc: suppose you had a list of types and you wanted to pass ownership of a pointer to only a sublist of those types
20:39:40 <AnotherTest> in that case, depending on what types someone puts in the list, the compiler might have to complain or not
20:40:03 <AnotherTest> but I don't think you can have lists of types in rust so there's no real problem
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20:40:25 <kmc> I'm not sure to what degree you can do the crazy C++ template tricks
20:40:33 <kmc> Rust does have an actual macro system, too
20:41:00 <kmc> don't know much about it, http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/tutorial-macros.html
20:41:30 <boily> first apocalyptic drops. it's starting.
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21:56:38 <elliott> is it feasible to give a linux VM read access to an ext4 partition so it can read it (the host OS cannot)
21:56:51 <elliott> it would be more convenient than using a live cd
21:58:58 <elliott> kind of scary giving a VM direct access to the disk like that
21:59:05 <kmc> feels good man
21:59:27 <kmc> one time I installed Windows to a spare partition, from a VM in this manner
21:59:31 <kmc> and then rebooted into it
21:59:35 <kmc> didn't work tho..............
21:59:41 <kmc> elliott: i don't know
21:59:45 <kmc> qemu / kvm can
22:00:07 <elliott> well, if I could run qemu/kvm I could read ext4 partitions too :P
22:00:15 <kmc> it's pretty common in the Enterprise to have your VMs on actual partitions or LVM LVs instead of files
22:00:18 <kmc> ah so that's the issue
22:00:25 <kmc> your host is Windows?
22:00:29 <kmc> isn't there a read-only ext driver for Windows
22:00:41 <elliott> I think that thing can only handle ext3 or whatever
22:00:50 <kmc> you can't mount ext4 as ext2/3?
22:00:55 <kmc> you can mount ext3 as ext2
22:00:57 <elliott> I think no if they use that superblock thing
22:01:12 <kmc> butt block
22:01:36 <elliott> anyway it would scare me too much, but I don't think it exists for OS X
22:01:50 <elliott> oh maybe there is a paid one
22:02:18 <elliott> suddenly giving a VM access to my disk sounds much less scary than all this
22:02:48 <kmc> you could also dd your ext4 partition to a file and then give the VM access to that
22:03:06 <elliott> it is like a hundred gigabytes though
22:03:07 <kmc> or maybe you can find some userspace ext4-parsing tools
22:03:11 <elliott> I don't actually have enough space for that
22:03:14 <Fiora> "ext3 is partially forward compatible with ext4. That is, ext4 can be mounted as ext3 (using "ext3" as the filesystem type when mounting). However if the ext4 partition uses extents (a major new feature of ext4), then the ability to mount as ext3 is lost."
22:03:14 <Bike> "victim-operated improvised explosive devices"
22:03:24 -!- intosh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:03:34 <elliott> Fiora: okay yeah, extents must be what I was thinking of then
22:03:56 <elliott> I don't actually know if the partition uses them but I don't really want to bother finding out as opposed to just doing something that'll work regardless...
22:04:11 <elliott> I checked Wikipedia but didn't see that, go me
22:04:49 <Fiora> "Ext4 - Linux filesystem (when the configuration enables extents — the default in Linux since version 2.6.23)."
22:04:59 <Fiora> that's... I guess probably it won't work then >_<
22:05:06 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: it's a landmine
22:05:28 <Bike> for a suicide bomb the attacker would die but not really be a victim.
22:05:52 <Phantom__Hoover> wp also sez the pIRA was where the term was first applied so 'land mine' is probably too specific
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22:15:31 <oerjan> horror-evading euphemistic terminology
22:16:26 <oerjan> hm needs something with an ironic acronym
22:16:31 <olsner> *people-to-pieces converter
22:16:52 <kmc> what if you trick someone into building a bomb
22:16:58 <kmc> by telling them it's something else
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22:17:51 <Bike> this came up because i was reading about some kid in syria making strides in cheap peoplekilling
22:17:53 <zzo38> Which is easier, to trick someone to build a bomb if you tell them it is not a bomb, or to trick someone to build some thing that isn't a bomb if you tell them that it is a bomb?
22:17:54 <Bike> rather depressing
22:18:07 <Bike> made grenades for $3
22:27:04 <olsner> hmm, according to my calculations this season is supposed to be from 2000, yet no-one has a cell phone
22:28:15 <Bike> http://tobtu.com/decryptocat.php "oops" again.
22:30:36 <kmc> season of what?
22:33:14 <Bike> "Abu Yassin, a former network engineer who has emerged as one of Aleppo’s most prolific weapons manufacturers." this could be you, #esoteric
22:33:21 <zzo38> In what city is that where no-one has a cell phone?
22:35:23 <Fiora> Bike: geez, they are like, schizophrenic on exactly what kind of cryptography to use
22:35:39 <kmc> http://www.amazon.com/Pyongyang-A-Journey-North-Korea/dp/1897299214 is pretty cool
22:35:46 <zzo38> How many people have cellphone in that city in 2000?
22:35:58 <kmc> as is http://www.amazon.com/Jerusalem-Chronicles-Holy-Guy-Delisle/dp/1770460713/ref=sr_1_1
22:36:07 <elliott> Bike: did something happen (beyond the last time that made the rounds, I can't tell if it changed?)
22:36:52 <Bike> oh i didn't know it made rounds
22:38:03 <Bike> well, it's updated as of the eleventh.
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22:41:07 <Bike> wow, this guy worked in a network outfit in beirut and only made $25k...
22:42:27 <kmc> what's the purchasing power adjustment?
22:43:27 <Bike> i um, don't even know what that means. >_>
22:43:46 <Bike> like, to adjust for cost of living differences or something?
22:44:34 <Bike> i really don't know.
22:44:52 <Bike> it says it "meant he lived well"
22:45:51 <shachaf> caltraaaaain to san francisco
22:46:34 <Bike> "When I ask about one odd-looking, 15-foot-long wooden trebuchet, which its proud creator is using to hurl 4-pound fragmentation bombs, he tells me he got the idea from the videogame Age of Empires. "
22:47:10 <Fiora> it feels weird to think that I am part of an entire generation that grew up on age of empires 2
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22:47:59 <Bike> i'm sitting here reading wired articles and another guy who played the same game decided to build trebuchets to blow things up.
22:48:19 <Fiora> like I've met all kinds of people who like all kinds of different things
22:48:39 <Fiora> but when I mention age of empires 2
22:48:45 <Fiora> everyone is like "oh that game!!!" and starts squeeing about it
22:48:50 <shachaf> kmc: are you going to bacat
22:48:50 <Fiora> and suddenly we have a thing in common
22:49:07 <Bike> "After they use repeated test firings to determine the mortar’s range—usually around 2 kilometers—the rebels check Google Maps to pick a suitable spot that sits the same distance from their target. They transport the rocket there and then use a compass to aim it." christ
22:49:35 <kmc> is that today
22:50:24 <Bike> what the hecks, he tried building a robot...
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22:54:38 <kmc> eating cheetos with chopsticks is so civilized
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22:55:05 <Fiora> cheetos... with... chopsticks?
22:55:14 <shachaf> kmc: not sure i can be civilized hth
22:57:22 <kmc> Fiora: yeah so the dust doesn't get on your hands
22:57:38 <Fiora> that's.... that's actually kind of brilliant O_O
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22:58:24 <mnoqy> i'm not much of a cheetos guy but iv always eaten them with spoons or forks or something
22:58:30 <mnoqy> maybe i should learn chopsticks
22:58:41 <kmc> chopsticks are pretty cool
22:58:58 <kmc> i like how asian chefs use giant chopsticks to manipulate the food they're cooking
22:59:34 <kmc> also factory workers applying bonding wires to integrated circuits http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2946
23:02:31 <Bike> what the hell.
23:03:55 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:04:06 <kmc> i've said this before but bunnie's blog is incredibly interesting
23:04:38 <pikhq_> Chopsticks are pretty great for cheetos.
23:04:45 <kmc> http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=147 http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=1022
23:04:57 <kmc> http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2269
23:05:02 <kmc> "China: Crowdsourced Tax Enforcement"
23:06:10 -!- sacje has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:06:49 <Bike> makes radio shack look pathetic
23:07:23 -!- sacje has joined.
23:09:07 <Fiora> that microsd article is really interesting
23:09:17 <kmc> radio shack doesn't need any help looking pathetic
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23:22:05 <kmc> although they are getting less pathetic, they have Arduinos and stuff now
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02:42:13 <Sgeo> HexChat has taken to crashing for no reasons
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03:10:48 <zzo38> Cheetos with chopstick seem like it could be good idea certainly.
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03:55:12 <Sgeo> I blame HexChat
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05:00:14 <zzo38> No, I mean what you blame them of?
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05:05:59 <zzo38> What is the dictionary coder which is using a fixed dictionary?
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05:35:41 <zzo38> If using a static dictionary with overlapping strings, would it help to precompute some table involving the overlapping information?
05:50:31 <zzo38> Is it not understandable?
05:51:11 <Bike> I mean, what is it you want to help.
05:52:19 <zzo38> O, maybe I am unclear.
05:52:27 <zzo38> I mean to help the encoding algorithm.
05:53:44 <zzo38> Actually, I guess a simpler way, but maybe a slightless compression, would be to make the order of how long each one is and then search and replace starting with the longest entries.
05:54:21 <zzo38> In the specific case I am using it is Z-machine, so it isn't actually that simple, although that might be good enough.
05:57:54 <kmc> oh i too interpreted what Bike said as "help, what"
05:58:18 <Bike> understandable
05:58:34 <kmc> i, even i, can play dead
05:59:19 <zzo38> kmc: The response is the same either way, as it turns out, it means what I wrote isn't understandable
05:59:32 <Fiora> Bike: http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/where/ this is kind of cool
05:59:37 <shachaf> kmc: somehow still finding sand in my shoe
05:59:46 <shachaf> kmc: or, rather, between my toes, when i put the shoe on
05:59:48 <kmc> still finding sand in my bed
05:59:58 <Fiora> did you two go to the beach?
06:02:07 <Bike> Fiora: imagining a receptionist at the JPL whose job is to point very precisely at where the probe is.
06:03:49 <Bike> 34 and a half light-hours, huh. wonder if we'll ever pass that.
06:05:01 <Fiora> well, like, the probe passes the record every second, doesn't it?
06:05:46 <Bike> a different probe, i meant :/
06:05:58 <Fiora> oh, probably New Horizons?
06:06:23 <Fiora> that one's on an escape trajectory too
06:06:28 <Fiora> though I think it'll be a bit slow
06:06:36 <kmc> oh I thought you meant whether humans will ever get that far from earth
06:06:54 <Bike> well, i guess that's a question too
06:06:56 <Bike> rather farther off though
06:07:22 <Fiora> yeah, that one in particular is probably far :/ since there'd be no point in sending humans that far unless like, you're going to another star system
06:07:25 <zzo38> kmc: If you do, try to make sure not to damage things too much in other solar systems and even in the stars themself
06:07:37 <zzo38> But it would probably take too long to get there anyways.
06:07:49 <Bike> don't play golf on proxima centauri
06:08:21 <Fiora> what's the lore... right, the alpha centauri spaceship gets launched in 2060
06:08:53 <Bike> doesn't alpha centauri also start after a global conflict nukes earth.
06:08:55 <Bike> can we like not do that
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06:09:09 <Fiora> that... yeah. I think we shouldn't do that
06:09:34 <Bike> it's settled then, no biosphere destruction
06:09:45 <zzo38> I don't think you should play golf on a star.
06:10:07 <zzo38> Because it won't work.
06:10:18 <Bike> how unimaginative.
06:20:46 <Gracenotes> What is the difference between the Oxford Idioms Dictionary (of English) and the Oxford Dictionary of English Idioms?
06:21:06 <Gracenotes> The first is $25 with 10,000 idioms; the second is $15 with 6,000
06:23:59 <Gracenotes> I think the former sacrifices depth for quantity?
06:26:13 <kmc> > (10000 / 25, 6000 / 15)
06:26:34 <kmc> well played, Oxford
06:27:02 <fizzie> I have the Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms, but I don't know how many euphemisms is in it, and I can't remember how much it cost.
06:27:40 <fizzie> It says £8.99 RRP $14.95 USA $17.95 CAN in the back.
06:27:43 <Bike> what? those are both even divisions...
06:27:55 <kmc> oxford dictionary of dysphemisms
06:27:56 <Bike> oh, you mean it's $24.99 or w/e
06:28:15 <Gracenotes> that is still coincidental... or is it
06:28:44 <Bike> anyway important stuff: what does this channel think of the soliton model of action potentials!??
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06:29:16 <Gracenotes> I am looking to generally improve my idiom fluency
06:30:21 <fizzie> "Almost five thousand", in the newer edition.
06:30:39 <Gracenotes> shachaf: well, not so much (and that's about proglang idioms anyway)
06:30:42 <fizzie> You get less euphemisms per dollar than you do idioms.
06:30:50 <shachaf> Gracenotes: What, the Shakespeare bit?
06:31:19 <Gracenotes> although surely I've absorbed that into my ethos, as with all of the epigrams
06:31:33 <Gracenotes> actually, if you want a more direct motivation, watching talks given by SPJ.
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06:35:48 <Bike> does he use weird idioms?
06:36:35 <Bike> appropriately, i don't know what you mean
06:36:45 <zzo38> DM has defined some esoteric sorting algorithms, none of which are suitable for general purpose applications, and some of which don't even work at all. Some of them result in a different multiset of output than the input is. However, it seems some of them may have a use in some specialized applications.
06:38:53 <Gracenotes> there's no real way to become more proficient with communicating things precisely, but for me, I often find phrases on the tip of my tongue when trying to do so (and occasionally botch them)
06:39:15 <kmc> drinking scotch out of a mongodb mug again
06:40:10 <Bike> livin the dream
06:40:33 <kmc> listening to Röyksopp
06:40:37 <Bike> "Considering that it is possible to procedurally create any string of binary digits and we can then translate that into letters, numbers, and any other given symbol that can be encoded, we can go create every possible string which would then reveal to us every possible statement/arrangement of symbols that might possibly be factual."
06:40:49 <kmc> :bonghit noises:
06:41:09 <Gracenotes> why do companies have some weird compulsion to give out mugs/shirts/stickers/etc in the bay area?
06:41:22 <Gracenotes> because that is how you market to developers?
06:41:23 <kmc> it's a cheap way to advertise
06:41:29 <kmc> it's not just a bay area thing
06:42:14 <Gracenotes> no, but there is a strong third factor that causes companies to be here and companies to do such adverting
06:42:19 <Bike> yeah they do that at every conference thing ever
06:42:48 <Bike> interesting fact, as there are more sheep than people in new zealand, there are more google-branded pens than there are people in california
06:43:36 <zzo38> I suppose Dropsort and Abacus Sort might sometimes have some uses if the program needs the data modified in such way. Abacus sort may be used in mechanical applications, I suppose. Maybe it is possible to use dropsort in mechanical applications too. Intelligent Design Sort is one that just assumes the data is already sorted and doesn't change it. It might be useful in some applications too!
06:43:39 <Gracenotes> it might also be that I stopped paying attention to jobs at school right around when this kind of craze got into full swing
06:43:43 <kmc> Bike: what do you think about the fact that the invention of digital information processing happened at about the same time as the discovery that living things on Earth are based on digital information processing
06:44:02 <Bike> kmc: i don't understand the premise o_o
06:44:54 <kmc> sure, base 4
06:44:54 <zzo38> I suppose any program that requires a sorted input and doesn't check may be considered a kind of "intelligent design sort".
06:45:14 <Bike> DNA isn't really "digital" in the same way electromechanical computers are in any sense that is nontrivial
06:45:34 <Gracenotes> yes, I'm not entirely sure about DNA being the whole story
06:45:35 <kmc> you can call it "discrete coding" or something
06:45:45 <kmc> and clearly DNA is not the whole story about how living things work
06:46:04 <kmc> but there are some really significant parallels
06:46:06 <Gracenotes> the 'whole story' in any meaningful information processing sense
06:46:33 <kmc> mostly the fact that it's easy to make lossless copies of digital / discrete information
06:47:08 <kmc> also the fact that portions of DNA code proteins that control DNA transcription and translation makes it more like a stored-program computer
06:47:18 <kmc> although that's a more indirect analogy, and was discovered later
06:48:58 <zzo38> There is RNA and various other things too, but DNA is some things.
06:49:16 <kmc> can't really argue with that
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06:49:21 <zzo38> But someone did manage to almost make a "Hello World" program with DNA.
06:49:34 <Gracenotes> yes, the discoveries seem to be more a result of increasingly rapidly improving technology in general, rather than academic confluence
06:50:13 <zzo38> (The problem is it uses Q instead of O. The DNA which encodes O is usually a stop code; I do not know in what circumstances it isn't, or how to make it do such a thing)
06:50:58 <Gracenotes> a bit more interesting is the CNS, which is a bit analog.
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06:51:34 <Gracenotes> the coevolution of proteins and DNA/RNA is incredibly interesting, though
06:51:39 <Bike> stupid computer. basically i'd say computers and genetics are only both based on "digital information processing" if you stretch that term into uselessness
06:51:53 <Bike> i need that dictionary gracenotes
06:52:13 <Bike> use... I... it would suck that's what i mean
06:52:20 <kmc> maybe not processing but storage and reproduction at least
06:52:38 <Bike> i think it's important not to overstate what DNA does
06:53:03 <Bike> it's basically a thing that is easy to transmit to offspring without much degradation
06:53:13 <kmc> that's what I've been saying...
06:53:24 <Bike> life has many, many aspects that aren't "digital" like DNA is
06:53:35 <Gracenotes> well, with heavy degradation, just not of the important bits
06:53:47 <kmc> you are a thief of joy
06:54:07 <shachaf> is that where my joy went?
06:54:13 <Bike> as an example there's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_oscillation which is neat
06:54:32 <Gracenotes> blame kmc for not putting it in your favorite terms
06:54:44 <Bike> the thing itself, not the wikipedia article which is kind of terrible, oops
06:55:11 <Gracenotes> someone should make complexity classes for life
06:55:13 <Bike> now let me check the logs so i don't annoy kmc more
06:55:29 <Bike> "and clearly DNA is not the whole story about how living things work" whoopsie
06:56:00 <Bike> ok, so, lemme latch on to "also the fact that portions of DNA code proteins that control DNA transcription and translation makes it more like a stored-program computer" a bit
06:56:41 <Bike> the problem with this as i imagine you know is that beyond the central dogma, the expressed proteins don't really form a "program" per se
06:56:57 <Bike> i mean, there's a reason turing back in the day expressed relations between enzymes with differential equations
06:57:44 <Bike> like, it's a stored program computer in that you have a fairly immutable "source" that is expressed into an active "program" but that's about where the analogy ends, you know?
06:58:20 <Bike> like you've got these things http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_regulatory_network
06:58:35 <Bike> which i'm not really sure how you'd phrase in a programmy way, though it could be interesting to do so
06:58:47 <Gracenotes> It's an interesting hypothethical assignment, as well, something like 'Here, I want an enzyme that helps catalyze this reaction, I'll allow you 2 ATP; I want the DNA code on my desk tomorrow'
06:59:16 <Bike> i guess to start with you'd have to design the protein
06:59:28 <Bike> and then you have to come up with an amino acid chain that folds into it
06:59:28 <Gracenotes> 'Also, inhibit it according to density of the product using pH'
06:59:35 <Bike> that's probably NP complete, if not impossible :<
06:59:52 <Gracenotes> well, that's okay, I'll give you a few millenia; brute force it
07:00:24 <Bike> oh as long as i'm on this that reminds me that i've been thinking of the CNS and stuff differently lately
07:00:24 <shachaf> why do i read #haskell logz
07:00:41 <shachaf> well getLine :: IO String contains a thunk that when evaluated reads characters of a line from standard input
07:00:47 <shachaf> kmc: in case you were missing out
07:00:49 <kmc> so close yet so far
07:01:03 <kmc> shachaf: hey so did they fix the "non-allocating threads can't be preëmpted" bug in GHC yet
07:01:09 <Bike> if you consider evolution as a kind of generic, idiotic (in that it doesn't know anything about the problem space) optimizer, you can consider the CNS (and also adaptive immunity~) as specialized fairly generic optimizers that work on somatic time instead ok nobody cares.
07:01:11 <kmc> i was talking about this with some other Mozilla Research people today
07:01:24 <kmc> Bike: yeah that's a neat view
07:01:27 <shachaf> rust threads are coöperative, right?
07:01:35 <kmc> I think there's some of that in The Extended Phenotype
07:01:43 <kmc> shachaf: yes and they are only preëmpted at syscalls, I think
07:01:45 <shachaf> is that the semantics or just the implementation?
07:01:49 <Bike> There are certain parts of the immune system that have hyperfast genetic mutation
07:01:52 <shachaf> concurrent haskell allows either, after all
07:02:00 <shachaf> though no one really uses it??
07:02:09 <kmc> the semantics of Rust threads don't include shared mutable state, really
07:02:21 <Bike> i think 9/10 times i've seen "thunk" in this channel it's been about getLine
07:02:26 <kmc> i think I used explicit yield sometime
07:03:08 <Bike> `pastelogs thunk
07:03:10 <kmc> anyway I was wondering about the virtues of a scheduler like GHC's, that knows about the HLL abstract machine state, vs. just running your HLL compiled code on top of a ISA level coroutines library
07:03:19 <kmc> i.e. do you save STG registers or do you save x86 registers
07:03:20 <shachaf> Bike: who'da thunk it (stupid thunkz joke)
07:03:28 <Gracenotes> Bike: CNS is essentially a generalized learning architecture
07:03:32 <kmc> is there a compelling reason not to do the latter, other than it being a ton of work to switch?
07:03:40 <kmc> i think it would solve the preëmption problem
07:03:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28703
07:03:58 <Gracenotes> it is interesting. the more general it is, the more data it takes to learn, but the smarter it is.
07:04:08 <Bike> Gracenotes: well, really you have to consider the peripheral nervous system too, i mean you can do conditioning in the "dumb" parts of the nervous system
07:04:13 <Bike> also reflexes and all
07:04:38 <shachaf> How does it solve the preëmption problem?
07:04:48 <Gracenotes> yes. there is, so to speak, specialized learning cortex
07:05:23 <Bike> also people are good at learning weird things like how to play Guitar Hero and not other weird things like group theory, in general
07:05:34 <kmc> well it's easy enough for some watchdog to force a Haskell-evaluating thread to stop; the problem AIUI is that if you've stopped on some arbitrary instruction you can't recover the abstract machine state in order to context switch it
07:05:51 <kmc> you can do that at allocations because allocations might garbage collect and the GC needs to know about roots anyway
07:06:23 <shachaf> Well, you can't really stop at arbitrary instructions anyway, can you?
07:06:26 <Bike> «<elliott> oerjan: so I don't have to do the Haskellian "thunks stub themselves out with {return value;} upon evaluation"?» seeing half of this conversation is really weird
07:06:53 <kmc> shachaf: another OS thread can do it with ptrace(), or you use SIGALRM or something
07:07:03 <shachaf> Mid-thunk-update or something. At least it doesn't seem obvious that it's safe.
07:07:05 <Bike> kmc: also sorry for being annoying >_>
07:07:08 <Gracenotes> how to async exceptions happen? checked in some common code (like unknown function application, e.g.?)
07:07:15 <kmc> Bike: i still <3 you
07:07:22 <kmc> how is asyncc exception formed
07:07:35 <Bike> i feel less than threed
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07:08:30 <Gracenotes> well, really, they need to do way instain throwTo, who kill her target, because target cannot frigth back
07:09:26 <kmc> send pocky
07:10:45 <Gracenotes> for example: http://reddit.com/r/supershibe
07:10:53 <Bike> what is with that damn dog
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07:11:39 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/3UVbLfV.png me irl
07:12:48 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png is me
07:12:56 <Bike> Gracenotes: is that like a line from something
07:13:17 <Gracenotes> I don't know, it's in the snowclone-meme ether
07:13:22 <olsner> "to do way instain" rings a bell
07:13:51 <Bike> it's from "how is babby formed"
07:14:44 <Gracenotes> I have met shachaf irl and can confirm he looks like that
07:14:58 <mnoqy> shachaf: hasn't that been done before
07:15:13 <Bike> Gracenotes: how does he do the transparency
07:15:21 <shachaf> mnoqy: yes "thats the point"
07:15:43 <Bike> is shachaf an apng
07:16:27 <shachaf> better than y'all regular apes
07:18:37 <Bike> is that comic sans with drop shadow
07:20:40 <shachaf> What is it with people claiming that things are great because they're vaguely similar to things named after category theory without actually understanding what they're talking about?
07:21:19 <shachaf> People on Internetwebsites.
07:21:24 <Gracenotes> I love how clear-looking C++ functors make my code look?
07:21:30 <shachaf> I should quit reading Internetwebsites.
07:22:03 <shachaf> I have a feeling Gracenotes was terribly bored during bacat today.
07:22:27 <Bike> it's uh, assocation bias or something, isn't it
07:22:32 <Gracenotes> I did get tired for a bit of it, because of general sleep deprivation
07:22:50 <shachaf> Doing bookexercises is admittedly not the most exciting thing...
07:22:54 <shachaf> Maybe I should've done some.
07:22:55 <Gracenotes> I might have gotten more out of it if did the exercises, though
07:23:00 <Bike> "this thing [category theory] is cool, so this other related thing [ProFunctorsX Enterprise Edition] is cool"
07:23:29 <Bike> also nobody understands what anybody is talking about ever, fyi
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07:25:22 <Gracenotes> so I will be attending maybe ICFP, but perhaps rather just the Haskell bits, but maybe everything
07:26:17 <Gracenotes> I will learn about the best profunctor to apply in my enterprise coding
07:27:34 <Bike> look at the list of projects here: http://www.systemsx.ch/projects/research-technology-and-development-projects/ they're practically all WhateverX
07:27:36 <Gracenotes> I think I would enjoy it based on watching lots of Haskell talks on the internet primarily
07:28:00 <Gracenotes> although enjoyment may be selection bias related
07:28:07 <shachaf> How much does attending ICFP cost, anyway?
07:28:28 <Gracenotes> this much http://regmaster3.com/2013conf/ICFP13/register.pdf
07:29:01 <Gracenotes> quite a bit... they have to rent out the space and provide free food to attendees
07:29:25 <Bike> that site has a typo in its search result
07:30:18 <Gracenotes> part of the inflation is because attendees don't pay for it out of pocket, but rather often by their institution.
07:31:05 <shachaf> Can you email them and tell them your institution isn't paying for it and so they should give you a discount?
07:31:07 <Gracenotes> well, usually only if they're presenting, for academics at least, or it's very obviously work-related
07:31:14 <shachaf> alt. can your institution pay for it?
07:31:23 <Gracenotes> you can find an institution to pay for you
07:31:57 <Gracenotes> you can print out a name badge and wear it
07:35:47 <Gracenotes> anyway, I really have no idea how this stuff works
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11:07:43 <oerjan> <kmc> well played, Oxford <-- are you saying they get paid by number of words?
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11:11:53 <oerjan> ask kmc <kmc> drinking scotch out of a mongodb mug again <-- is it a humongous mug twh
11:16:10 <oerjan> @ask kmc <kmc> drinking scotch out of a mongodb mug again <-- is it a humongous mug twh
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16:31:29 <olsner> "This aptitude does not have Super Cow Powers." sounds like it's trying to be funny... I wonder how that's funny
16:32:09 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptitude_(software)#Easter_egg I think ?
16:32:20 <coppro> also last line of apt-get help
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16:36:09 <olsner> hmm, there it is... and now that I think about it, I never did figure out what the difference between apt-get and aptitude is
16:38:34 <coppro> aptitude is another interface basically
16:38:43 <coppro> different features and dependency resolution
16:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1ijr21/til_when_coming_to_power_in_january_1933_the_nazi/cb58ov6
16:57:33 <Phantom_Hoover> (pity it wasn't in /r/bitcoin, it's a perfect MEANWHILE IN)
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18:04:43 <kmc> Fact: Any sentence starting with "Fact:" is probably bogus
18:05:04 <kmc> @tell oerjan no, ordinary size
18:07:38 <kmc> Proof: crush. Qed.
18:08:13 <elliott> is shachaf never going to give the second line again
18:08:28 <shachaf> that line is for you to give
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18:23:57 <fizzie> It is, indeed, quite "fun" that the factorial of 0 is 1.
18:24:16 <elliott> fizzie doesn't know the second line?
18:24:18 <elliott> shachaf: we need the second line.
18:24:31 <fizzie> I don't know the second line.
18:24:33 <shachaf> fizzie: "fun" is SML for a function definition.
18:24:45 <HackEgo> 2013-03-27.txt:00:19:48: <shachaf> | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
18:24:53 <fizzie> shachaf: I was thinking it'd be something like that.
18:24:55 <HackEgo> Thanks, HackEgo. ThackEgo.
18:25:01 <shachaf> fizzie: http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/cus/pl/ctm_aml_01.html
18:25:31 <shachaf> Maybe that's because I don't know SML.
18:25:32 <elliott> hmm, I guess it's actually a separator, not a terminato
18:25:35 <shachaf> The second line was your job.
18:29:04 <zzo38> Do you have some ideas about a alternate syntax for 6502 assembly codes? I have had the idea too, but I wasn't complete.
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19:04:29 <zzo38> The controls I prefer on a PC platform game is left and right shift keys to move, space bar to jump, and ZXCVBNM,./ to shoot. This is a bit unusual, but it is what I prefer. Do you have preferences about it?
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19:24:15 <kmc> that's a lot of shooting keys
19:24:20 <kmc> do they all shoot the same thing
19:24:35 <kmc> or are you running around holding 9 different guns
19:26:34 <Bike> it's the american way.
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19:32:49 <oerjan> @tell kmc I sense a great lost opportunity
19:48:45 <Taneb> Okay, I am really bad at watching sad movies
19:48:50 <Taneb> I'm crying my eyes out at Batman
19:49:12 <Bike> isn't that the point
19:49:27 <Fiora> that sounds like *good* at watching them?
19:49:39 <Fiora> I like crying at movies at least, it'd be less fun if I didn't
19:50:01 <zzo38> kmc: They all do the same thing.
19:50:42 <shachaf> imo crying is good but crying at movies is bad because the manipulation etc. is usually so obvious
19:50:47 <shachaf> and by bad i mean i don't like it so much
19:50:51 <zzo38> Pharaoh's Tomb and Arctic Adventure use a superset of these keys; the arrows keys can also be used to move and the F key also shoots. In addition, it can be configured to use the CTRL and ALT keys to move left/right (you can switch which one is left and which is right).
19:51:14 <kmc> shachaf: that reminds me, what's with restaurants and shops that play music
19:51:26 <kmc> here while you're waiting in line for a burger maybe you'd like to hear a song about extreme emotional trauma
19:51:36 <zzo38> shachaf: Bad is that you are crying and cannot listen to movie or other audience can.
19:52:52 <shachaf> imo crying at books is better than crying at movies #snobz
19:53:35 <zzo38> shachaf: Crying at books is bad too you might get the pages wet.
19:55:47 <zzo38> But then you will get the display wet.
19:56:33 <Bike> the display can take it! it's a manly display
19:56:53 <kmc> in my experience women are at least as waterproof as men
19:57:23 <Bike> manly waterproofing
19:58:02 <Bike> going around spraying people with buckets of water to judge relative waterproofness
20:01:10 <Bike> elliott: http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs37/i/2008/267/c/c/PLATYBELODON_by_Sk00tie.jpg
20:08:37 <shachaf> kmc: Not when you have bulgarian cheese!
20:09:36 <kmc> this is so confusing shachaf
20:09:53 <oerjan> what superpowers does bulgarian cheese man or woman have
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20:22:46 <shachaf> kmc: I have an Internet connection that corrupts a lot of packets.
20:22:55 <shachaf> How can I download things reasonably?
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20:23:08 <kmc> get a better internet connection, hth
20:23:13 <shachaf> For example I'm trying to apt-get this 0.5MB file.
20:23:24 <kmc> maybe BitTorrent over UDP
20:23:29 <kmc> or one of the other UDP-based file transfer thingies
20:23:33 <kmc> that doesn't try to send the file in order
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20:57:26 <elliott> Bike: attn http://www.theonion.com/articles/fbi-offering-1-million-reward-for-any-information,33157/
20:58:22 <Fiora> their real motivation must be trying to improve their subterfuge
20:58:32 <Fiora> after all, the who's really good at dishonesty? a cheetah
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21:26:30 <kmc> https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/master/src/rt/rust_debug.h#L23-L27
21:28:05 <Fiora> signal(SIGTRAP, SIG_IGN) what does that do? isn't signal assigning a function pointer?
21:28:10 <Fiora> like, is SIG_IGN a function?
21:28:59 <Fiora> it says... it should be ignored...?
21:29:07 <Fiora> what happens if you raise a signal that should be ignored o_O
21:29:18 <fizzie> It should get ignored.
21:29:28 <fizzie> It tends to break in a debugger, though; that might be what it's about.
21:29:34 <fizzie> (Also possibly under other circumstances?)
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21:43:09 <zzo38> Is my bio in CthulhuMUD any good? It seems like really strange compared to everything else.
21:43:28 <shachaf> zzo38: How should I know? I haven't seen it.
21:45:02 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/JfRh
21:45:23 <zzo38> I think the line wrapping is no good in this file, for one thing.
21:45:32 <Bike> this breakpoint doesn't seem very awesome
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21:46:24 <zzo38> Bike: What breakpoint?
21:46:38 <Bike> the one kmc linked
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21:47:32 <zzo38> Did I make any spelling mistakes other than the one I have already corrected?
21:48:24 <Bike> "the male mi-go migo scientist"?
21:48:42 <Bike> also what's with the comma in Gknqwvonqtunkznbcvjbaklsrgjhqpwetypqwrkzbxncv,bakdlgqweprthpahdskznxvkljqthw
21:48:43 <zzo38> I have made a breakpoint in VisualBoyAdvance with something like that you simply get a infinite loop
21:49:22 <zzo38> Bike: The first three lines are typed by the computer; I asked why it says "the male mi-go migo scientist" with the word twice and inconsistent hyphenation; they don't know why either.
21:49:35 <Taneb> I think on the whole I enjoyed Batman Begins
21:49:43 <zzo38> Maybe I should remove the comma, I suppose, though.
21:51:06 <zzo38> But I cannot change the line that says "the male mi-go migo scientist". The reason it is repeated is because one is a profession, but I don't know why it is inconsistent. Probably it would improve if they fix it to add a flag to a profession that tells it to not be repeated.
21:51:11 <zzo38> But that isn't up to me.
21:51:20 <zzo38> The third line and below is the text I typed in.
21:51:28 <zzo38> I mean, below the third line.
21:51:35 <zzo38> (The third line is made by the computer.)
21:52:41 <shachaf> "Gknqwvonqtunkznbcvjbaklsrgjhqpwetypqwrkzbxncv,bakdlgqweprthpahdskznxvkljqthw" looks like a spelling mistake to me.
21:53:09 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes it is; the comma is wrong.
21:53:33 <Bike> it's a proper noun!
21:53:51 <kmc> Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
21:55:27 <shachaf> zzo38: It says "O no", but it means "Oh no".
21:56:24 <zzo38> Does that mean I put the comma in the wrong sentence?
21:56:40 <Bike> no, it means you used "O" which does not mean the same thing as "Oh"
21:56:51 <Bike> and i doubt you're trying to address No.
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21:59:37 <zzo38> Maybe I am trying to address Yes.
21:59:48 <Bike> then you should put "O yes"
22:00:12 <zzo38> I didn't say I am trying to address Yes; I said maybe I am. Actually I am not.
22:00:41 <Fiora> Bike: http://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5787 http://arxiv.org/abs/1306.3960
22:01:02 <Bike> fiora these look scary
22:01:34 <Fiora> summary of the first: the r-process may occur in ejecta from neutron star collisions, depending on the masses of the stars, the impact, the equation of state, etc, and this will have a very measurable effect on the afterglow spectrum and can be detected
22:01:39 <Fiora> the second: we found one!1!
22:01:54 <zzo38> Is there anything else good or no good about what I wrote?
22:03:47 <Bike> what's an r-process
22:04:56 <Fiora> rapid neutron capture process, so like, when you have iron atoms in a supernova
22:05:10 <Fiora> and the supernova neutron flux causes atoms to capture many many many neutrons before they have a chance to decay
22:05:20 <Fiora> because there's just so many neutrons
22:05:20 <fizzie> It sounds like an abb. for a random process.
22:05:49 <shachaf> It's very irritating when you have a slow connection that web standard/browser/whatever says that you can't see the page until things have finished loading.
22:06:26 <shachaf> Such that a page stays un-readable for minutes, but as soon as I, say, get disconnected, all the text show up immediately. It was there all along, but waiting for things to load.
22:06:33 <Fiora> oh, huh, it's more than just that
22:06:36 <shachaf> A <script> in the <head>, or a font, or other things.
22:06:39 <Fiora> "Immediately after the severe compression of electrons in a core-collapse supernova, beta-minus decay is blocked. This is because the high electron density fills all available free electron states up to an Fermi energy which is greater than the energy of nuclear beta decay." :o
22:07:02 <Fiora> so not only are the neutrons everywhere but the nuclei can't beta decay either
22:09:21 <Bike> this sounds very science
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22:10:11 <Fiora> if you don't want me to link you these things I won't okay :<
22:10:55 <Bike> no i just don't understand it
22:11:57 <Bike> i don't understnd a lot of things, man
22:12:42 <Fiora> teach me like, biology then or something!
22:13:37 <shachaf> Bike: teach me biology instead
22:13:41 <Bike> i haven't actually taken a biology clss since high school you know :/
22:13:58 <Bike> i'm working on this stuff man.
22:14:04 <Fiora> and I haven't taken a physics class since like um. sophmore year?
22:14:12 <Bike> also http://24.media.tumblr.com/0a602f21196aab912fbc944e8a7a8650/tumblr_mpa7ytfYhU1rhb9f5o2_r1_1280.jpg
22:14:19 <Bike> Fiora: showoff :P
22:14:59 <Fiora> it was an intro class >_<
22:15:00 <shachaf> i've never taken a class and moreover i don't know anything
22:15:00 <fizzie> Bike: Is that a self-portrait?
22:15:14 <Bike> i'd never allow myself to be photographed while that dirty.
22:15:16 <Bike> also i'm a bike
22:15:40 <shachaf> stop diminishing the plight of actual bikes
22:16:58 <Bike> also "teach me biology" is like as broad as "teach me math" or "teach me physics"
22:17:01 <Bike> there's a lot of biology
22:17:13 <shachaf> teach me biology (the good parts)
22:17:42 <Bike> is that a javascript joke
22:18:07 <nooodl> Bike: i think it's even broader??
22:18:13 <nooodl> with biology there's not even an obvious place to start
22:18:46 <Bike> well same goes for math, like, do you start with numbers or with geometry
22:19:58 <Fiora> Bike: okay um, maybe like "teach me any subset of biology"
22:20:32 <Bike> well which subsets are you interested in
22:20:32 <Bike> (also: which ones can i reasonably talk about >_>)
22:20:58 <Fiora> anything you can talk about <.<;
22:21:34 <Bike> well yesterday i was looking at soliton theory i guess
22:21:46 <Bike> do you know the theory of how neurons basically work, with hodgkin-huxley?
22:22:23 <oerjan> solitary neurons are so underestimated
22:23:00 <Bike> there's a book on my wishlist about computational properties of single neurons but it costs like, money
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22:23:38 <Bike> i am not a good teacher :<
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22:24:51 <lambdabot> No quotes match. You speak an infinite deal of nothing.
22:25:20 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Are you on drugs?
22:25:31 <lambdabot> Berengal says: Anyone doubting the immutable value philosophy needs to try vacuum
22:25:44 <oerjan> elliott: why isn't lambdabot including the latest hwn quotes help
22:25:47 <Bike> that was informative.
22:25:52 <shachaf> oerjan: There's another way of getting quotes into HWN.
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22:31:38 <Bike> do you know how neurons are supposed to work with hodgkin-huxley
22:31:56 <Bike> that's the name of the theory. it's named after some british guys like usual
22:32:38 <Bike> alright so, neurons work by "firing", which entails an electrical "action potential" traveling around. this is experimentally observable etc
22:33:12 <Bike> basically for about a millisecond a given area will jump 100 mV, and then decay rapidly to below where it was, before getting back to where it was
22:33:37 <Fiora> okay, that makes sense
22:33:52 <Bike> so, back in the 50s they were trying to work out how this happened
22:34:25 <Bike> they figured it had to do in large part with how cell membranes work. do you know about lipid bilayers?
22:34:45 <Fiora> that's the thing cell membranes are made out of, right? it's like a thing with lipids but I dno't know much more
22:35:10 <Bike> right well, lipids are a kind of organic molecule
22:35:34 <Bike> they have a property that they're hydrophilic on one side (the "head") and hydrophobic on the other (the "tail")
22:35:44 <Bike> meaning the head attracts water and the tail doesn't
22:36:15 <Bike> you can easily make a "bilayer" of these, which is basically a simple structure where you have two layers of parallel lipids (with the heads all on one side, see), and then you touch their tails
22:36:25 <Bike> so you get a hydrophobic core and two hydrophilic sides.
22:37:01 <Bike> i think it's a neat design myself, you can pretty much just toss a bunch of lipids in a pool and they'll form pseudo-membranes
22:37:11 <Bike> anyway, so that's what a cell membrane is made of, along with proteins that jut out
22:37:39 <Bike> on average the mass ratio is 1 protein/1 membrane to give you an idea of how infested the membrane is with transmembrane proteins
22:38:00 <pikhq_> That's a lot of proteins.
22:38:02 <Fiora> and those are all the things that dock with random molecules lying outside and inside and do stuff?
22:38:23 <shachaf> kmc: should i move to the city y/n
22:38:25 <Bike> specifically these are often "transport proteins" that use some energy to move something from the outside of the cell to the inside, or vice versa
22:38:32 <Bike> (there are other proteins that are entirely inside the cell, and such)
22:38:41 <kmc> shachaf: yes
22:40:27 <Bike> so what hodgkin-huxley boils down to is, you have voltage-gated ion channels, which are transport proteins that move charged ions (like Na+, K+, Ca2+ especially) across the membrane
22:40:40 <Bike> voltage-gated meaning they open or close based on the voltage of the membrane
22:41:27 <Bike> with these things, a cell can maintain a voltage (that is, a difference in electric potential on the inside from the outside) by moving ions around, see
22:43:21 <Bike> the neat thing is that this is all guesswork based on measured voltage data, they basically just fit a model to it. pretty great for mathematical biology
22:44:02 <Bike> but it's not perfect, and also the ful differential equations have like twenty experimentally determined parameters, which is kind of a lot
22:45:43 <Bike> so, around 2005 some german (i think) biophysicists started working on an alternative, called the soliton model
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22:47:57 <zzo38> Is it possible for two batteries to each show 1.5 V individually on a multimeter but if you put both in series you will get 0.5 V instead?
22:48:02 <Bike> a soliton is a wave that keeps its shape, like this http://www.tu-chemnitz.de/physik/KSND/abb/sol1.gif
22:49:57 <Bike> their idea is, the real nature of action potentials is in soliton waves traveling along cell membranes, and they're actually caused by this thermomechanical pulse
22:50:25 <Bike> which has a bit of empiricism behind it, like, apparently there are noticeable (physical) bulges where an action potential is, and you can trigger them mechanically and stuff
22:51:44 <Bike> it's definitely a fringe theory, but the nice thing about it is that it explains anesthetics
22:51:51 <Bike> you know what a general anesthetic is? something that just knocks you out?
22:51:58 <Bike> turns out nobody knows why they work.
22:52:05 <Fiora> yeah, I remember reading about that and being kind of shocked
22:52:20 <Bike> anyway the soliton theory can sort of explain it
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22:52:36 <Bike> the idea is, anesthetic effectiveness is pretty well correlated with the anesthetic's solubility in lipids
22:53:01 <Bike> so what happens when you get anesthetized is that the anesthetic just dissolves in neural membranes, which halts soliton motion.
22:53:23 <kmc> so what role do the voltage-gated ion channels have in this model?
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22:54:04 <Fiora> so why does the brain keep functioning while you're under general anesthetia?
22:54:18 <kmc> also how do you get from an external neurotransmitter receptor binding to a soliton action
22:54:22 <Fiora> like I mean you're asleep, but things keep working (like breathing and stuff?)
22:54:28 <kmc> neurotransmitters are also mostly ion channels aren't they
22:54:57 <elliott> isn't a general anaesthetic that doesn't keep you breathing just called killing you
22:55:09 <Bike> i think the soliton model just assumes ion channels are part of the general thermomechanical answer
22:55:09 <kmc> what do they use for heart-lung machines
22:55:21 <Bike> which is kind of a shitty answer and probably part of why it's fringe!
22:55:22 <elliott> "today we're going to be using the general anaesthetic known as 'cyanide'"
22:55:53 <Bike> elliott: have i ever shown you the paper where some anestheticians accidentally used a muscle relaxant (which they got from Amazonian blowdarts btw) thinking it was an anesthetic
22:56:20 <Fiora> elliott: I meant like why does it let you keep breathing
22:56:26 <Bike> Fiora: as for that i really have no idea!
22:56:43 <Fiora> and I mean, like, they do MRIs and stuff under anesthetia and find that the brain isn't like, *off* or anything, right?
22:56:46 <Bike> elliott: well that happened. hth.
22:56:49 <Fiora> it's just, like, suppressed
22:56:56 <elliott> Bike: is the content of the paper "oops, we goofed!"
22:57:28 <elliott> being under general anaesthetic was weird
22:57:34 <elliott> then again I was five years old, so everything was weird
22:57:40 <Bike> elliott: yes, but first they double check that the kids weren't lying by having one of them take a muscle relaxant until he can't move any of his muscles.
22:57:48 <Bike> one of the anestheticians, i mean
22:58:19 <Bike> basically this paper is how i learned that anesthetics is a terrifying science.
22:58:26 <Fiora> I haven't ever been as far as I remember
22:58:31 <Fiora> the prospect is kind of scary ;_;
22:58:51 <Fiora> I asked for no general anesthetia when I had my wisdom teeth out because I was too scared to do it
22:58:55 <elliott> it was to remove a hernia, for me
22:59:12 <Bike> as they took him off the relaxant and he got the ability to talk back he was like "hi yes i was conscious the whole time, phil you did fucking terribly at removing spit from my mouth"
22:59:48 <Bike> this was in like the 40s to give you a timeframe
22:59:58 <Bike> hopefully they've improved just a bit even if they still have no clue how GA works.
23:00:15 <elliott> other fun elliott operation anecdotes: when I woke up there was a bandage around my wrist and also I was kind of crazy because I just woke up so I wanted it off
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23:00:42 <elliott> no, not attached to anything
23:00:47 <elliott> so I unwrapped it and there was a thing stuck in my arm (what are they called help)
23:00:53 <elliott> and I freaked and tried to rip it out :P
23:00:57 <Bike> this cast is sapping my bodily fluids
23:01:01 <Bike> were you unsupervised...
23:01:09 <elliott> this happened in the space of like two seconds
23:01:36 <kmc> i had GA for wisdom teeth
23:01:43 <kmc> it was kind of amusing
23:02:09 <kmc> "97... 96... oh look now I'm standing up and my mouth is full of blood and gauze"
23:02:14 <elliott> another fun anecdote: they put like, local anaesthetic cream on the back of my hand to numb it for putting the anaesthetic needle in
23:02:19 <elliott> but I didn't quite understand that part
23:02:21 <Fiora> I kind of strangely (like a feeling of curiosity) enjoyed the non-GA wisdom teeth
23:02:25 <Fiora> since I got to, well, experience the whole thing
23:02:27 <elliott> and I thought the cream was instead of the needle somehow
23:02:36 <elliott> so that was pretty fun when they were like "okay time to stick a needle in you!"
23:02:41 <kmc> Fiora: how was it
23:02:57 <Fiora> first they gave me like 12 shots of local
23:03:05 <Fiora> which was fine (I mean I'd done it plenty before)
23:03:16 <Fiora> then the guy had these, like, big plier things
23:03:23 <Fiora> and basically just pulled out my top two wisdom teeth
23:03:26 <Fiora> because those were really easy to get at
23:03:44 <Fiora> then he had to use the drill to deal with the lower two and chop them up (one was impacted)
23:03:54 <elliott> also being under the anaetshetic was kind of weird, it wasn't really like sleeping
23:04:12 <Fiora> and so like he pulled out a big chunk and drilled and got more chunks and so on
23:04:18 <Fiora> and like the impacted one had to be pulled out in a million pieces
23:04:40 <elliott> this sounds terrifying. fyi.
23:04:41 <Fiora> there was like, a lot of pressure, and the one painful bit was when the drill sort of reached the bone/nerve area past where the anesthetic was affecting? like the jaw I guess
23:04:53 <Fiora> but it wasn't that bad or anything, just little spikes of pain
23:05:01 <Fiora> and after like 10 minutes it was all done and I walked out
23:05:10 <Fiora> sorry that was horribly TMI
23:06:05 <Fiora> and at the end I guess he like sewed it up with a few dissolving stitches
23:06:14 <Bike> yeah i've had this too though uh i don't think it was quite this interesting
23:06:24 <Fiora> really? I figured mine was kind of boring since only one was impacted
23:06:28 <Bike> just drilling into my jaw while i'm sitting there like "am i seriously watching this"
23:06:33 <Fiora> yeah, basically XD
23:06:39 <kmc> TMI? well I did ask...
23:06:53 <kmc> I also had a bunch of dental work done under local anaesthetic + laughing gas
23:07:04 <Fiora> that must be par for the course for you though, right?
23:07:06 <elliott> if you asked for too much information is it still too much.........
23:07:29 <kmc> well I was like 10 years old at the time
23:07:30 <kmc> so not really
23:07:38 <Bike> but i like look up videos of human corpses decaying and stuff so i probably am more used to the idea of being made of meat than many people
23:07:53 <Fiora> that reminds me, my mom apparently had some operation on her legs a decade or three ago (I don't remember the details) and she was given that spinal block thingy? so like, you're awake but can't feel anything below the neck
23:08:16 <Fiora> she apparently regrets it, mainly just because it was extremely weird being conscious for like 2 hours while a bunch of doctors did this surgery and acted as if she didn't exist
23:08:16 <Bike> (picture a bike made out of meat)
23:08:22 <Fiora> it was just, like, really unnerving
23:08:32 <Bike> that sounds kind of boring.
23:08:48 <Fiora> yeah, I imagine it's just really boring, you have to just sort of be there for 2 hours
23:08:54 <Fiora> unable to feel or do anything
23:09:22 <Bike> "hey can i take off while you rearrange my hip? i have like, i could play tetris or something"
23:09:23 <Fiora> Um, I think everything above the neck is normal
23:09:31 <kmc> solution: take LSD first
23:09:37 <kmc> have a jolly time inside your own head
23:09:40 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_anaesthesia oh, this is what it is
23:09:50 <elliott> can always rely on kmc for good advice
23:09:52 <Fiora> it's everything below where they insert the aneshetic I think
23:09:52 <kmc> actually that would probably be horrible
23:09:58 <kmc> yes elliott
23:10:01 <Bike> kmc: yeah that sounds like bad trip city
23:10:16 <Bike> i've heard a proposal that doctors should treat patients under anesthesia as if they were aware, in case of intraoperative awareness
23:10:17 <elliott> imo having an operation on drugs is sort of probably a bad idea for non-trip-related reasons too
23:10:19 <Fiora> oh, I see. it's everything below the abdomen
23:10:30 <Bike> that seems kind of awkward too though
23:10:35 <elliott> Bike: god, I can't imagine that
23:10:45 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidural or maybe it was this? >_<
23:10:47 <Bike> "hi you may or may not be able to hear me, and definitely can't react, but... well i'm going to take your liver out now"
23:10:49 <elliott> anaesthetic not working is like, the number one scary thing imaginable
23:11:13 <Bike> i'm a bit curious how it would feel
23:11:28 <Bike> i mean you don't have nociception /inside/ your body right
23:11:38 <Bike> so it would only feel like getting stabbed continuously or whatever
23:11:43 <elliott> they even do like brain surgery without general anaesthetic or something right
23:11:50 <Fiora> I think they do that without it because they have to?
23:11:58 <elliott> swear I've seen that on some silly TV ~medical reality show~
23:12:09 <Bike> stories of brain surgery without anesthetic are basically amazing
23:12:10 <elliott> imo that's the weirdest thing imaginable
23:12:17 <elliott> your brain is literally in the air
23:12:40 <Bike> "ok i'm going to poke this part what's happening" "it sounds like there's an orchestra playing, right over there" <-- ~actual medical hitory~
23:12:43 <Fiora> to imagine, like, a small part of your brain being removed, as you are awake
23:13:02 <Fiora> like how does a computer feel if you zap one of its cpu cores
23:13:05 <elliott> I'm actually, like, surprised you can do all kinds of operations with the person conscious
23:13:13 <elliott> it seems like you'd expect the brain to totally freak and start messing things up somehow
23:14:07 <Bike> well like i said you don't have the ability to perceive that your liver is being removed
23:14:17 <Bike> because... why would you, that doesn't happen in nature
23:14:28 <Bike> so the brain's like "Lol i dunno" i guess
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23:14:54 <elliott> and like, it's weird that the body is resilient enough to keep you functioning while all kinds of shit are going down with itsi nternal organs.
23:15:26 <kmc> yeah sometimes when they have your brain exposed they poke it with electrodes just to see what happens
23:15:57 <ion> Transcranial magnetic stimulation is interesting, too. A bit less invasive way to poke at the brain.
23:15:57 <Bike> thankfully the body is reasonably modular.
23:16:09 <zzo38> What is your opinion of "relational quantum mechanics"?
23:16:11 <Bike> transcranial magnetic stim is some sci-fi shit, imo
23:16:24 <kmc> ion: they were building a homebrew TMS rig at Noisebridge....................
23:16:33 <kmc> one of the worst ideas I can think of
23:16:42 <ion> kmc: “What could possibly go wrong?”
23:18:05 <Bike> it's weird/cool that the foundation of large-scale neuroanatomy is lesion studies, aka "this part of the brain is damaged what's that do" studies
23:18:44 <Bike> kind of a bad way to reverse engineer stuff but it's reasonably effective?
23:19:41 <ion> The talk about when they used TMS to hinder the part of the brain that lets you empathize was interesting.
23:20:16 <kmc> what happened?
23:20:38 <Fiora> did the patients become politicians?
23:20:48 <Bike> Fiora: ok so, i should have remembered this, but like under general anesthesia you don't breathe very well, that's why they put in a tube and all.
23:21:44 <Fiora> do they like have a pump that runs it, or...?
23:22:08 <elliott> Bike: going to have to ask you to never become an anaesthetist
23:22:18 <Bike> why would i ever do that
23:22:35 <elliott> well you, like, forgot it stops you breathing very well.
23:22:42 <elliott> one strike and you're out as far as I'm concerned.
23:23:10 <Fiora> so like, it's possible to breathe with a tube that just cycles air? like, without diaphragm movement?
23:23:47 <Bike> btw this is medicine not biology so i disclaim responsibility to know anything
23:24:04 <ion> People were told three hypothetical scenarios: person A thinks they gave person B sugar but it was poison; A thinks they gave B poison but it was sugar; A thinks they gave B poison and succeeded. They weren’t told what the TMS was doing and were asked how big punsishment A should get. For the first case, the average punishment got higher with TMS. For the second case, it got lower. For the third case, it
23:24:06 <ion> didn’t change.
23:24:13 <Bike> Fiora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Endotracheal_tube_colored.png it's, like. i think they're basically pumping the lungs here.
23:25:24 <Bike> i don't think they do that whole 9 yards for just anesthesia though (btw: can we change the spelling of "anesthesia" holy shit fuck)
23:25:42 <Fiora> so like, how does the tube help without a pump?
23:25:42 <ion> elliott: Transcranial magnetic stimulation. hth
23:26:13 <Bike> well i think the main issue with someone under anesthesia is that their mouth and trachea and stuff isn't working, rather than that the lungs stop?
23:26:37 <Bike> so they put the tube in so that they don't have to worry about them choking to death because they forgot to keep their airway open
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23:26:52 <ion> I think it was this talk. http://www.ted.com/talks/rebecca_saxe_how_brains_make_moral_judgments.html?source=butt
23:27:12 <elliott> oh it wasn't a copy-paste.
23:27:35 <Bike> btw there's apparently a word for going crazy when you come out of GA, which is a shame because i was going to call it "elliottism"
23:27:37 <oerjan> <Fiora> like how does a computer feel if you zap one of its cpu cores <-- "Dave, my mind is going."
23:28:11 <Fiora> daisy daisy, give me your answer do
23:28:39 <ion> Yeah, that’s the talk.
23:32:37 <ion> “Although TMS is often regarded as safe, the greatest acute risk of TMS is the rare occurrence of induced seizures. More than 16 cases of TMS-related seizures have been reported in the literature” Have fun getting trying the new brain seizure rig at our hackerspace.
23:32:42 <Bike> Fiora: apparently iron lungs work pretty simply, by keeping the chest in a chamber with oscillating air pressure. so like if the atmospheric pressure inside the iron lung is higher than the human lung, the lung breathes out, and vice versa
23:32:58 <Fiora> that... makes a lot of sense o_O
23:33:05 <Bike> i know right, i had no idea
23:33:11 <Bike> who knew lungs were so simple
23:33:16 <ion> I love lungs.
23:34:08 <Bike> i said simple, not easy
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23:37:50 <Bike> the replacement for iron lungs is basically a thing you put on your chest http://www.polioplace.org/sites/default/files/artifacts/AKcuirass_2.jpg
23:37:57 <Bike> very fashionable
23:39:40 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikCgKn8r7to wow this is great. "masks are inadequate. what if we just encased the entire head instead?"
23:44:47 <ion> What if we just encased the entire human instead?
23:44:51 <ion> What if we just encased the entire planet instead?
23:45:35 <Bike> ion for surgeon general
23:45:48 <ion> The slowed-down video from 0:45 on looks freaky.
23:46:14 <shachaf> ion: Should I start using ’?
23:46:28 <ion> shachaf: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
23:46:33 <shachaf> ion: In Unicode, ' is called APOSTROPHE, and ’ is called RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK.
23:46:36 <Bike> 'agitated emergence'
23:46:45 <elliott> also that iron lung replacement does not look very comfortable
23:46:54 <Bike> have you seen iron lungs
23:47:02 <Bike> pretty much anything is an improvement on that
23:47:33 <elliott> I dunno, I could totally chill in an iron lung. you could fit a laptop in there.
23:47:42 <Bike> http://www.polioplace.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/front_slideshow/front/cuirass_-_ed_rosenwasse_1960.jpg see this guy is just chilling
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23:47:46 <ion> Why isn’t 1:25 slowed down? D-:
23:47:49 <elliott> whereas that picture is pretty not-laptop-friendly, imo.
23:47:52 <Bike> elliott: but... you couldn't see it...
23:48:02 <elliott> okay that guy does look pretty happy
23:48:19 <elliott> Bike: look, the important thing is that it's there.
23:48:19 <Bike> just reading this huge magazine
23:49:06 <Bike> "it is important that i have my laptop, even if i can't interact with it in any meaningful way
23:49:49 <ion> I like how the artist thought 2:17 would be the perfect time to add claps.
23:50:31 <Bike> elliott, stricken by polio, nonetheless bravely soldiers on to insult bikeologists
23:51:25 <elliott> Bike: I could get, like, a braille display.
23:51:41 <elliott> can you move your arms around in iron lungs. I don't even know
23:51:54 <Bike> i think you can
23:52:02 <Bike> also shachaf what's dolio?
23:52:20 <ion> It’s like Dike.
23:52:37 <Bike> http://cache.wists.com/thumbnails/c/08/c085c71e9fefc3c5710e9bbc75af80e7-orig wow there are some amazing images here
23:52:42 <ion> Iron lung would be a great superpower.
23:52:42 <elliott> ok wait hold up, if you're in an iron lung and you get an itch on your head what the fuck do you do
23:52:51 <Bike> scream, forever
23:53:03 <elliott> wow that image is depressing
23:53:03 <shachaf> elliott: you haven't learned to will itches away yet??
23:53:11 <ion> elliott: Or the urge to lick your toes
23:53:35 <Bike> elliott: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/goldenage/wonder/Archive/Images/Iron%20Lungs.jpg behold, the lungpocalypse.
23:54:29 <elliott> yeah I've seen that image before
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00:04:47 <ion> Some of the graphics on Wikipedia are awesome. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/TMS_Butterfly_Coil_HEAD_.png
00:20:19 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Backspace.jpg will always be the best
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00:23:37 <shachaf> looking forward to the ""super mega update"" this evening"?
00:23:48 <ion> “”super mega update“”
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00:57:45 <JesseH> I am thinking about how my next esoteric programming language will work ._.
00:58:29 <JesseH> Someone brainstorm with me
00:58:59 <Sgeo_> I should work on Braintrust 2 at some point
00:59:03 <Bike> turing morphogens imo
00:59:17 <JesseH> Last language was Derplang.
00:59:24 <zzo38> JesseH: Did you look at the list of ideas in the wiki? There are lot of things in there.
00:59:33 <JesseH> Oh I didnt know there was a such a thing. :P
01:00:03 <Sgeo_> Always compiling opcodes as though they were Braintrust, not <current language>, and having some kind of quine-ish operator
01:00:34 <JesseH> Right now I am picturing lines and lines of random numbers
01:00:41 <Bike> http://www.dna.caltech.edu/courses/cs191/paperscs191/turing.pdf i guess
01:00:48 <JesseH> I am trying to think of how that should work.
01:00:57 <Sgeo_> Take the compiler stack out of the primitive compiler, so to speak
01:01:12 <Sgeo_> And put it into the code. Ideally recompiles should not grow the stack
01:01:14 <zzo38> Bike: Why is the "f" mixed up?
01:01:27 <Bike> http://www.dna.caltech.edu/courses/cs191/paperscs191/turing.pdf now?
01:01:28 <Sgeo_> AND the language would ideally be simpler to describe than Braintrust
01:01:34 <zzo38> Now it isn't mixed up.
01:01:35 <JesseH> zzo38, Can you link me to the ideas?
01:02:00 <Sgeo_> I really ought to not base it on Brainfuck
01:02:04 <Bike> http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas
01:02:06 <Sgeo_> Maybe a simple Scheme
01:02:19 <Sgeo_> But I don't know how to design a trivial Scheme-like language to act as a host for my ideas
01:03:31 <Bike> how about a language where compiled code should pass some randomness tests.
01:04:11 <Bike> does malbolge actually look random?
01:04:17 <Fiora> how about um... a language where you have to write multiple programs that interact (e.g. compete, like in a bfjoust?) except that the output of the language is determined by the results of those interactions
01:05:53 <Bike> are there even any long malbolge programs to test...
01:06:13 <Fiora> ('&%:9]!~}|z2Vxwv-,POqponl$Hjig%eB@@>a=<M:9[p6tsl1TS/
01:06:14 <Fiora> QlOj)L(I&%$""Z~AA@UZ=RvttT`R5P3m0LEDh,T*?(b&`$#87[}{W
01:06:18 <Fiora> ... is... that long enough?
01:06:56 <Bike> http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-malbolge-995.html luckily some psychopath wrote 99 bottles of beer
01:07:00 <Bike> sure doesn't look random...
01:07:59 <Bike> haha the comments are arguing about whether it actually works
01:08:48 <Bike> also one comment like "why would you do this if it's only five lines in java". precious
01:15:00 <augur_> Fiora: whats it like working with edison carter
01:18:07 <zzo38> Especially since it says you have to drink 99 bottles of *bear* in order to program in this programming language
01:18:34 <JesseH> Bears are hard to swallow, but they taste good if you can get them down.
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01:23:29 <pikhq_> Bears are also hard to bottle.
01:24:30 <JesseH> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bugmaker
01:25:30 <Bike> didn't we have a tehz hate-on here a while back
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01:26:21 <Bike> "LABEL _ (AND NOT ANYTHING ELSE)" yeah this sucks
01:27:11 <Bike> «If "Hello World", with any punctuation, case-insensitive, whitespace-insensitive would get printed to the console, the program must halt.» very sucks
01:27:37 <Bike> also makes an interpreter technically impossible
01:27:57 <elliott> well you can just buffer all output
01:28:27 <Bike> yeah oops. oh wel
01:29:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, i was about to say that sounds like the halting problem but i guess it doesn't
01:29:25 <Bike> yeah that's what i was thinking
01:29:36 <Bike> i guess you can just do it at runtime instead.
01:29:51 <Phantom_Hoover> but it essentially just means printing 'd' after 'hello worl' is equivalent to halt
01:29:52 <Bike> same thing practicaly
01:30:03 <JesseH> A language that uses the programmers "stats" to determine the success of something happening.
01:31:40 <JesseH> And you increase levels the more you succeed in doing something? :P
01:32:20 <elliott> doesn't it mean it'd have to halt from the start
01:32:39 <Bike> eh it just says it must halt, not that it must halt immediately
01:32:49 <Bike> also fuck this language and fuck thinking about it, so there's that
01:32:57 <JesseH> So to declare an int variable to equal 5 it would "roll" 1d(your level) and it would have to be over that.
01:33:12 <mnoqy> hinges on someone caring about it at all
01:33:34 <JesseH> But then eventually you would have high enough levels to do whatever, and the language would become boring
01:33:38 <Phantom_Hoover> what is it with shitty esolangers and proliferation (don't answer, i already know)
01:34:27 <Bike> btw does anyone know dynamics at all
01:34:29 <Bike> because like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Contours2.png wtf
01:35:21 <Bike> chaotic mixing yes
01:36:17 <Bike> well, like, fuck.
01:36:20 <Bike> know what i mean?
01:36:55 <Phantom_Hoover> if it wasn't for the lack of [numbers] i would think i'm in /r/trees
01:37:42 <Bike> is it like #toilets
01:38:51 <mnoqy> ah, so that's what [numbers] is
01:41:06 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Poincar%C3%A9_sections.jpg could stare these all day really
01:41:12 <Bike> while super high
01:41:44 <Bike> or super trying to understand dynamics
01:42:45 <mnoqy> super high all day #toilet
01:44:52 <Phantom_Hoover> by which i mean i took an 'experimental maths' course and got a zero
01:45:27 <mnoqy> what the hec k is an experimental maths
01:45:30 -!- btiffin has left.
01:46:54 <zzo38> I don't know what it is either.
01:47:09 <Bike> quasi-empiricism?
01:47:09 <Phantom_Hoover> mnoqy, i don't know, i didn't actually realise i was taking it until halfway through the course
01:47:23 <elliott> wait, isn't that the COBOL guy
01:48:39 <Bike> "The failure to satisfy the second definition is because there are points arbitrarily close to an attractor with a riddled basin, such that these points generate orbits that go to another attractor " seriously what the fuck
01:49:24 <Phantom_Hoover> if i knew what 'riddled basin' meant that would probably make sense enough
01:49:58 <Bike> a riddled basin is a basin where points arbitrarily close to its attractor go to another attractor.
01:50:17 <mnoqy> ssounds reasonable enough
01:51:06 <Bike> "Say we initialize a state at p and find that the resulting orbit goes to Â. Now say that we attempt to repeat this experiment. If there is any error in our resetting of the initial condition, we cannot be sure that the orbit will go to A (rather than C), and this is the case no matter how small our error is." like.
01:51:37 <Bike> it makes from the definition but it is crazy and weird.
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01:52:38 <Bike> and yeah lots of topology except they're talking about neighborhoods instead of open sets for whatever reason, i suppose it probably generalizes
01:54:12 <zzo38> How to learn writing Lisp system in C?
01:54:31 <Bike> look at one of the trillion lisp implementations in c
01:56:11 <zzo38> Is there a document of it?
01:57:09 <Bike> https://code.google.com/p/lisp5000/ there's one
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02:46:05 <shachaf> kmc: are you at the karaoke thing now
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03:09:19 <kmc> i'm at a different thing! are you in the city? you could join us
03:10:03 <shachaf> i may be in the city on Sat
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03:23:35 <coppro> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/33346/33346-h/33346-h.htm#h2H_4_0003
03:34:58 <shachaf> elliott: Today conal said that functions are like containers.
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03:42:08 <kmc> shachaf: cool
03:42:36 <kmc> I think Cathy and I are hanging out with her parents on Saturday, but maybe not all day
03:44:42 <JesseH> Anyone working on any neat languages lately?
03:45:15 <JesseH> Planning it out, getting ideas
03:45:44 <kmc> I think we drove away the actual esoteric programming languages community :/
03:45:45 <JesseH> I want it to be ... better?" ... than my last one
03:46:30 <Bike> we could move to #crap
03:46:47 <mnoqy> probably someone already owns #crap and it's bad
03:46:56 <kmc> just another thing to feel guilty about I suppose
03:46:58 <JesseH> Wait, then who all is in here?
03:47:02 <JesseH> Just brainfuck fan boys?
03:47:13 <Bike> all brainfuck all the time
03:47:30 <JesseH> "I think brainfuck is interesting, so I will stay in #esoteric all day because..."
03:47:55 <Bike> well this channel is mainly about complaining about #haskell
03:47:56 <JesseH> How about people that actually design and implement languages go to #esoteric_dev
03:48:21 <elliott> kmc: by drove away do you mean ais523
03:48:36 <mnoqy> im sure theres at least like one other guy
03:48:36 <Bike> it's, like, the general thing that happens when you have an internet community and then give it the "general chat" thing
03:48:39 <elliott> because using ais523 as a model of anyone else at all is really dangerous :P
03:48:58 <Bike> i know this from great experience with "minecraft" people ddossing servers because of arguments about sexuality
03:49:01 <noooodl> I still don't get why ais left
03:49:24 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ais523
03:49:34 <Bike> ais came up with a bunch of cool languages & is crazy
03:49:46 <JesseH> He would be fun to talk to xED
03:49:48 <kmc> you blew it all up
03:49:53 <elliott> he also won http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/
03:50:25 <Bike> an argument about uh
03:50:32 <Bike> sexuality wasn't it
03:50:44 <Bike> "the universal killer"
03:50:47 <kmc> we don't talk about sex here that much
03:51:04 <elliott> anyway he didn't leave because of any one single thing
03:51:06 * JesseH has an urge to tell ais to join his channel
03:51:28 <JesseH> I try to limit all off-topic chat
03:51:47 <JesseH> What good does small talk do? And what good does talk about other shit do?
03:51:49 <elliott> ok, well, we do a lot of it
03:51:55 <Bike> yeah this channel is like
03:52:04 <Bike> i don't remember the last time we talked about esolangs before you mentioned them today
03:52:04 <kmc> it's just some friends
03:52:08 <kmc> who talk about whatever
03:52:09 <JesseH> I learned a lot about the people here when I wrote derplang :P
03:52:12 <kmc> and have some common interests
03:52:13 <elliott> the fact is, esolangs are not nearly active enough to talk about them all the time
03:52:19 <Bike> i mean we're still generally like, we do bizarre CS stuff
03:52:21 <elliott> so unless there's something specific about them brought up it's going to drift
03:52:27 <mnoqy> if only we had more people pumping out esolangs
03:52:33 <Bike> we can talk about esolangs, we just don't, like, do it. very much.
03:52:36 <JesseH> esolangs are fun to design and write >_>
03:52:47 <Bike> just not full time
03:52:53 <JesseH> Of course not full time
03:53:06 <JesseH> when you are not focusing on esolangs get the fuck out :P thats why I was gone for a month
03:53:13 <Bike> i mean if you want to talk about esolangs here it's probably fine
03:53:13 <JesseH> and now I am back, because I want to write one :P
03:53:32 <elliott> well, y'know, we kind of prefer it this ay
03:53:34 <noooodl> Well it's not a fuckin law that says
03:53:40 <Bike> if i don't stay in an irc channel constantly i can never come back. it's an oath thing
03:53:44 <noooodl> Thou shalt discuss esolangs
03:53:46 <Bike> after i nearly got eaten by that goat, but rescued
03:53:57 <elliott> it's not really better to be silent because the alternative is a fairly tightly-knit channel being off-topic :P
03:54:13 <JesseH> noooodl, Try not to get too upset, i will be forced to use esoteric in any jokes used against you :P
03:54:18 <Bike> also i am always willing to talk about crabputers and computation in cells, fyi
03:54:19 <elliott> and plenty of the stuff talked about falls under "if you liked esolangs, you might also like: ..."
03:54:26 <Bike> make an esolang based on crabputers
03:54:46 <JesseH> I think I am going to pick someone from here that is here because, and name a language after them.
03:55:09 <JesseH> Let me read through the logs and see who I can find
03:55:11 <Bike> is the person glogbot
03:55:17 <augur_> if a spider laid eggs under your skin, imagine how much worse itd be if it were a goose
03:56:09 <JesseH> What does shachaf say a lot?
03:56:20 <mnoqy> "they are so easy"
03:56:25 <JesseH> What the fuck is monoids
03:56:32 <Bike> you don't know what a monoid is?
03:56:56 <JesseH> Oh yeah, I dropped out of highschool, bight me
03:57:01 <Bike> it's a binary operation that is associative, and some other stuff i don't remember off the top of my head
03:57:02 <JesseH> I will have to catch up on my math :P
03:57:30 <JesseH> I want to name a language Bike
03:57:55 <Bike> so for instance multiplication on the reals forms a monoid, since a(bc) = (ab)c and 1a = a and so on
03:58:03 <JesseH> example "bike x = 1; bicycle x;"
03:58:38 <JesseH> But that is just changing up names and shit
03:58:45 <JesseH> I want to actually make something that is different
03:58:52 <Bike> string concatenation also forms a monoid, "hell" ++ ("o " ++ "world") = ("hell" ++ "o ") ++ "world" and "" is identity.
03:58:57 <Bike> even though concatenation isn't commutative, see.
03:59:21 <JesseH> I am trying to think of some complex thing that would be used when writing code
03:59:37 <JesseH> I can't think of shit :P
04:00:05 <Bike> Why not look at a language you haven't used before, that's outside your usual paradigms
04:00:17 <Bike> like haskell or SNOBOL (these are obviously comparable)
04:00:29 <JesseH> I will look at haskell
04:00:49 <JesseH> I hear about haskell all day from hipster fags
04:01:05 <Bike> don't use "fag" derogatorily kthx
04:01:59 <JesseH> Maybe a language for a specific purpose
04:02:21 <Bike> see, snobol is for weird linguistics stuff and being incomprheensible. it's perfect.
04:03:27 <JesseH> Okay, I am just going to write something, and ill share it with you all later
04:03:38 <JesseH> My idea isnt really that interesting, but meh
04:04:41 <noooodl> It's actually very hard to come up with interesting esolangs ideas
04:05:14 <zzo38> noooodl: That is why we have list of idea in wiki, write many things, see what seem interesting to you, etc
04:05:15 <noooodl> Which is also part of the reason you can't discuss esolangs 24/7
04:05:39 <noooodl> Oh right JesseH could look at that
04:05:43 <JesseH> My idea is simple; Can be a fun experiment to try with different escape codes and colors and shit
04:05:59 <kmc> <Bike> don't use "fag" derogatorily kthx <--- i agree with this, also I don't think it matters if you're gay, also i'm an op
04:06:23 <kmc> if you wanna do that in your own channel, fine, but it's against the community norms here
04:06:36 <JesseH> Honestly if I get banned, I will go talk about this in my channel, its not that bad.
04:06:42 <JesseH> Dont get your panties in a bunch
04:06:46 <elliott> suggest not taking that attitude
04:06:48 <kmc> i'm not.......
04:07:06 <kmc> is it your claim that any attempt by communities to set tone in any way constitutes "getting your panties in a bunch"
04:07:21 <kmc> i thought Bike and I were being reasonably polite with our requests
04:07:24 <JesseH> Over what I said? I dont think it was even worth mentioning that you are op.
04:07:30 * kmc rolls eyes
04:07:40 <JesseH> Omergerd attitude! sin sin ban him
04:07:49 <kmc> i'm getting sick of you
04:07:59 <JesseH> Yes, I have done so much wrong in this community.
04:08:23 <elliott> can we like change the topic
04:08:28 <JesseH> You never used the term "old fags" or something similar before?
04:08:34 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
04:08:37 <kmc> i'm aware of this usage
04:08:42 <elliott> hi about the topic-changing
04:08:42 <kmc> bye JesseH
04:08:44 <JesseH> Right, then why are you upset?
04:08:55 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o kmc.
04:08:57 -!- kmc has kicked JesseH JesseH.
04:08:57 <zzo38> What do you want to change this topic anyways?
04:09:07 -!- kmc has set channel mode: -o kmc.
04:09:17 <zzo38> Maybe you shouldn't KICK to everyone too much please
04:09:34 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +v kmc.
04:09:37 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
04:09:54 <kmc> i don't want to spend an hour explaining to a hostile person that "being aware of this usage" and "thinking it's totally fine" are different
04:10:15 <Bike> i ain't complainin
04:10:31 <Bike> well anyway, i was thinking it would be kinda nice if there was somewhere like #esoteric but for neuroscience instead of CS, so i could be a weirdo for being a naïve realist instead of watching you all be weirdos for being constructivists
04:10:54 <kmc> i wouldn't mind more talk of neuroscience here
04:10:59 <kmc> that soliton stuff was super interesting
04:11:02 <kmc> even if totally crackpot
04:11:05 <elliott> i think the problem with "#esoteric for $subject" is that it is inevitably #esoteric
04:11:13 <elliott> there is no way to escape the gravitational pull
04:11:13 <zzo38> Do you want to be realist of constructivists? I don't think that is necessarily the only choices!
04:12:03 <Bike> elliott: well if there were any more biologists you'd drive them out with your hostile attitude!!
04:12:55 <elliott> Bike: thankfully crackpots are impervious to criticism (boom)
04:13:32 <Bike> kmc: yeah kinda wish i knew more about it but http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/e/c/5ec607907b2588dc038c1ef0168475dc.png is rather intimidating
04:14:01 <Bike> i mean so are the nine or whatever equations you need for hodgkin but who's counting
04:14:17 <kmc> \rainbow{PARTIAL DIFFERENTIAL EQUATIONS}
04:14:43 <Bike> i have an entire book on computational modeling of neurons from the 80s, and all the code is in incomprehensible fortran
04:14:46 <Bike> very #esoteric imo
04:15:10 <kmc> i love incomprehensible fortran
04:15:53 <Bike> it's in something halfway between standards and it only ran on the guy's institution's computers it's horrible
04:16:02 <Bike> i transcribed a bit http://mnxmnkmnd.tumblr.com/post/30986287342/
04:17:07 <zzo38> What is your opinion about free will? I think there are two kinds of free will.
04:17:18 <kmc> zzo38: do you like hugs?
04:17:26 <Bike> like, compatabilism?
04:17:30 <Bike> except spelled correctly
04:17:45 <zzo38> kmc: Sometimes, but it isn't hug in internet anyways
04:17:58 <kmc> I like internet hugs and also real hugs
04:18:36 <zzo38> Bike: That is one of the kinds of free will, not both.
04:18:48 <Bike> is the other kind..... incompatibilism
04:18:59 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, I suppose so.
04:19:17 * kmc hugs Fiora
04:19:54 <zzo38> Actually I did find some other Lisp system in C, called LYSP (which stands for "50 Years of Symbolic Processing").
04:19:58 <Bike> the main problem with free will is that i argued about it way too much when i was a fifteen year old atheist and now i just groan and clutch my head when someone brings it up
04:20:06 <Bike> isn't lysp by the maru guy? that's pretty good
04:20:33 <zzo38> Bike: That is the problem of you I think... Are you atheist now, or agnostic?
04:20:53 <Bike> atheist i guess
04:21:00 <Bike> and yes it is a problem of me
04:21:09 <kmc> zzo38: that's a good acronym
04:21:22 <kmc> the maru guy...... like the guy with the cat??
04:21:36 <Bike> the language maru which is named after the cat
04:21:46 <Bike> good cat though
04:21:50 <kmc> <3 that cat
04:22:13 <zzo38> O, I thought it is "Marumegane" which is with round glasses.
04:22:45 <Bike> actually maru itself is self-hosting based on C, so you could look at that
04:22:54 <Bike> lots of ugly macrology but it has gc and all
04:22:58 <kmc> rust is self hosting
04:23:01 <zzo38> OK I will look at that too
04:23:02 <kmc> unclear whether this makes any sense
04:23:08 <Bike> also there's uh
04:23:16 <kmc> except as a way to make the language / compiler developers care about whether the language is good
04:23:33 <Bike> the memory pool system has a nice neat scheme implementation with gc hooks and all
04:24:07 <zzo38> Bike: Do you have the URL to look at it?
04:24:26 <Bike> like the scheme specifically? let me check their source control, i've never looked at it online
04:24:36 <Bike> oh. it's on github now. stand by
04:25:00 <Bike> https://github.com/Ravenbrook/mps-temporary/tree/master/example/scheme
04:26:14 <Bike> i guess the fundamental problem with neural simulation is that neurons are hilariously nonlinear.
04:26:45 <coppro> nonlinear doesn't even begin to describe it
04:27:12 <Bike> yeah that's what i was trying to get across with "hilariously" but i guess i probably use that word too much
04:28:13 <Bike> the neural simulation book has like four pages of code for simulating a single neuron with a dendritic tree with spines, it's fucking nuts
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04:36:26 <kmc> MPS is cool
04:36:44 <Bike> yeah they upgraded their site to not look like shit too
04:37:00 <kmc> good i guess
04:37:06 <kmc> does it use twitter bootstrap now
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04:53:47 <kmc> twitter dongstrap
05:00:20 <Bike> kmc: btw, another soliton v. hh thing that was mentioned in a review but i didn't think of - solitons don't account for how ion channel blockers like TTX do their poisonous thing
05:00:48 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Liberation_Army
05:01:02 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm really not sure whether this counts as embarrassing or not
05:01:25 <Bike> "In January 2008 two men, Wayne Cook and Steven Robinson were convicted in Manchester of sending miniature bottles of vodka "
05:04:52 <Phantom_Hoover> "In February 2007, SNLA involvement was claimed in the fatal Grayrigg derailment of a Virgin train traveling from London to Glasgow. A points failure was later found to be responsible. Preliminary investigation indicated that there was probably no sabotage."
05:19:46 <Phantom_Hoover> "The Scottish Separatist Group (SSG) has been described as the political wing of the SNLA. The SSG was formed in 1995 by former members and supporters of the SNLA. Both groups want to reverse English immigration into Scotland and promote Gaelic as the country’s national language." oh my god
05:20:27 <Bike> man that's sad
05:20:33 <Bike> just pass that referendum and be done with it
05:21:38 <Bike> how spoken is gaelic anyway
05:21:42 <kmc> who the hell actually wants to speak gaelic
05:21:44 <Bike> also isn't gaelic a language family not a language
05:21:53 <kmc> sure there's a scottish language in that family, though
05:22:08 <Bike> oh, when they say "gaelic" they mean "scottish gaelic"
05:22:20 <Bike> wow, that's confusing!
05:22:24 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean in theory it's 'scots gaelic' but everyone just calls it gaelic
05:22:50 <Bike> "The 2001 census of Scotland showed that a total of 58,652 (1.2% of the Scottish population aged over three years old)[6] in Scotland could speak Gaelic at that time" i'm uh, not sure this is gonna work, peeps
05:23:15 <Bike> well, i guess algeria's the same way, really.
05:24:04 <Bike> is what england has done to scotland called "colonialism"
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05:25:40 <Bike> i guess there probably haven't been colonies.
05:26:18 <Phantom_Hoover> there's not much point in establishing a colony in the country immediately north of you
05:27:06 <Bike> just wondering what you call suppression of minority languages/cultures outside of a colonial context. beinganassism
05:29:25 <Bike> oh, it was a french colony until like the 60s.
05:29:58 <Bike> basically they still speak a whole lot of french despite the government's efforts to restore arabic and berber
05:30:29 <Bike> french has no official status there, and it has the most french speakers of any country, that sort of thing
05:30:41 <kmc> France gave up their other colonies but they maintained for a while that Algeria was an integral part of France
05:30:48 <kmc> for some reason
05:30:54 <Bike> "it's, like, right there, man"
05:31:21 <Phantom_Hoover> if we get rid of it we'll be all lopsided across the mediterranean
05:32:23 <Bike> in battle for algiers the french commander basically says "it's not my job to care why we're doing this, it's up to the voters back home"
05:33:14 <Phantom_Hoover> i do remember that 'french military history' page mentioning that the french claim the algerian civil war or war of liberation or whatever they decided to call it a victory for france
05:34:13 <Bike> i'm imagining a french spokesperson being like "well we did better than portgual right"
05:34:52 <Phantom_Hoover> "The French consider the departure of the French from Algeria in 1962-63, after 130 years on colonialism, as a French victory and especially consider C. de Gaulle as a hero for 'leading' said victory over the unwilling French public who were very much against the departure. This ended their colonialism. About 2 million ungrateful Algerians lost their lives in this shoddy affair."
05:36:15 <zzo38> Do you know of Wang B-machine? I can consider a variant where the instructions are encoded as basic blocks instead.
05:36:35 <Bike> like wang tiling?
05:36:57 <zzo38> No, it is something different
05:37:26 <zzo38> Although I think they are named after the same person
05:40:41 <zzo38> "[I]n 1966, Robert Berger ... show[ed] how to translate any Turing machine into a set of Wang tiles that tiles the plane if and only if the Turing machine does not halt." This seems like strange and I like this too.
05:41:03 <Bike> i thought you would.
05:45:01 <zzo38> So it must be Turing complete, then.
05:45:44 <zzo38> Wang B-machine is also Turing complete.
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05:50:38 <zzo38> Maybe the Wang B-machine basic blocks could then even be made in another way, such as a tuple.
05:52:16 <zzo38> It could be a set of integers, a integer, and two labels.
05:53:23 <zzo38> What is the smallest Turing-complete sequent calculus?
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06:02:25 <JesseH> My new language! It has begun!
06:03:02 <JesseH> It's called ">_>". http://hastebin.com/vedomobomo | That will output
06:04:01 <JesseH> Anyhow, Ill be on my channel if someone would like to chat about it, or anything about esoteric programming languages for that matter! PM me for details, later!
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06:06:39 <HackEgo> smlist (413): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
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06:41:12 <JesseH> http://esolangs.org/wiki/SLang
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07:18:09 <kmc> shachaf: you were unable to get Uber to confirm a Google Voice number, right?
07:23:54 <shachaf> Maybe I just messed something up.
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08:42:44 <shachaf> kmc: That's kind of surprising.
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08:54:27 <daflixis> How could this hash function be written in an esoteric lang? http://pastebin.com/fKLSat1m As you can see, the state of the hash function is made up of two 32-bit signed integers (a, b) that both start out as 0.
08:55:02 <daflixis> The input is a sequence of characters, drawn from 93 possibilities. Each character from the input is mixed into the state over a progression of 17 rounds and, when the last character has been mixed in, the result is just the final state of (a, b).
08:55:37 <daflixis> Note that addition and multiplication are unchecked (e.g. Int32.MaxValue+1 = Int32.MinValue, Int32.MaxValue*2 = -2) and division rounds towards 0 (e.g. -4/3 = -1, 7/3 = 2). In addition to the hash function, here is translated code to verify that a username/password combination is valid: http://pastebin.com/icX6HHrD
09:02:05 <FreeFull> daflixis: Which esoteric lang though?
09:02:21 <daflixis> FreeFull: Which would suit it best?
09:09:06 <FreeFull> It should be possible to write in most of them
09:09:18 <FreeFull> Not all are turing complete or have the ability to take input and output =P
09:10:14 <lifthrasiir> daflixis: what do you want by writing that hash function with an esolang (whichever it would be)?
09:11:07 <FreeFull> I think daflixis is just curious
09:11:12 <daflixis> JUst interesting to see how it could be implemented
09:11:59 <lifthrasiir> there are several esolangs with a considerable support for bitwise operations, which many esolangs do not support.
09:12:58 <lifthrasiir> loop is a bit easier, though unusual control flow in general is one of the selling (hah!) point of many esolangs.
09:13:28 <FreeFull> brainfuck on the other hand doesn't even have division
09:13:28 <lifthrasiir> at least you need an esolang with character I/O (need not to be buffered or interactive) though
09:13:58 <lifthrasiir> (so the original INTERCAL can't be used, but modern INTERCAL variants have character I/O)
09:14:57 <fizzie> It would be reasonably trivial to implement that in Befunge, at least if you assume an implementation where the stack elements are "Int32"s.
09:15:12 <lifthrasiir> if you just want to see how does typical(!) programs written in esolangs look like, then using a code generator like BFBASIC (BASIC to BF compiler) could be an option
09:15:20 <lifthrasiir> except that that would spoil much of the fun :p
09:15:59 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: Befunge-93 does not have bitwise operators though
09:16:32 <fizzie> lifthrasiir: The function in question does not seem to need any.
09:16:54 <lifthrasiir> oh wait, it indeed doesn't have bitwise operators...
09:21:22 <fizzie> You might need some extra work in '93 to store a 32-bit value on the playfield (the inner loop doesn't look terribly doable just on the stack, what with no rot), but that's about it.
09:27:28 <FreeFull> I could easily implement it in haskell, although it wouldn't be very esoteric =P
09:30:56 <FreeFull> Hmm, you mentioned division, but it doesn't have any division =P
09:44:25 <fizzie> I'm tempted to write it in Funge-98, but I'm supposed to be working, and anyway it seems kind of a pointless exercise.
09:44:28 <fizzie> The inner loop in Funge-98 might look like 98+ > \:00g06-*01g+02g+\-00p:01g3/00g+03g+\-\ :#v_ -- assuming some pre-storing of constants, a and b on the playfield, and e on top of stack at start.
09:45:47 <fizzie> (Probably folded on two lines so that the _ is actually a | that goes directly to the >.)
09:46:38 <Deewiant> '*f8+738*+** for 0x74fa and 2'_6'+'@**+* for 0x81be
09:47:22 <Deewiant> Or 2'ß4'@:**+* for 0x81be if non-ASCII is okay
09:48:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, man; I did Google for Fungify, but didn't seem to see any hits; should've just gone to your page; didn't realize it was there.
09:49:05 <fizzie> (Well, not by *name*, I mean; I didn't remember the name.)
09:50:05 <Deewiant> It's the most obvious name; you don't need to remember it, you can just come up with it and you'll be right.
09:51:18 <fizzie> Well, with those constants inlined, something to the tune of http://sprunge.us/CfQJ perhaps.
09:52:07 <fizzie> Oh, I forgot a 1- from the loop, heh.
09:52:33 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/hIdW then. "Whatever."
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10:42:04 <Phantom_Hoover> what was that incredibly dumb thing the coding horror guy did or said
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12:10:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wiki: not found
12:12:13 <elliott> I like how that shoes as "/hoe/hackbot" for me.
12:16:02 <oerjan> <zzo38> Bike: Why is the "f" mixed up? <-- are the letters rebelling today
12:16:18 <oerjan> (it wasn't mixed up in the logs)
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12:22:50 <HackEgo> 62 95 62 32 111 114 32 62 95 62
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12:24:03 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/list of ideas
12:24:39 <fungot> +15[>+4>+7>+7>+8<4-]>3-.>-4..<2+7.<-2.-11..>2-3.<+3.>2-5.-3.<-4.>+2.<+6.<.<-.>3+.+3.<.<2+.>+4.>+2.+2.-2.<2.,[.,]
12:25:17 <fizzie> I think it is finally time for a /hilight -mask fungot!*@* -level quits
12:25:18 <fungot> fizzie: i guess the biggest difficulty with vcs would be in high level code, easily human readable and parsed once not once per request.
12:25:56 <fizzie> ^raw QUIT :just testing
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12:26:04 <fizzie> That's not hilighted at all.
12:26:14 * elliott hyperventilates in re: no fungot
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12:26:26 <oerjan> i guess fungot is not ideally suited for character escaping.
12:26:26 <fungot> oerjan: that's what i thought too. particularly before there was no way
12:26:29 <fizzie> Why is it that nothing ever works right.
12:26:41 <oerjan> fizzie: impending apocalypse hth
12:28:06 <fizzie> fungot: That was a suspiciously context-appropriate response. Are you feeling quite all right?
12:28:06 <fungot> fizzie: seems like it would hurt. the main designer of the language
12:28:15 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, that's more like it.
12:28:15 <fungot> fizzie: hmm... i wonder if this makes the standard vague on several
12:31:07 <oerjan> fungot: no, it's the unstandard vague on several hth
12:31:08 <fungot> oerjan: ways in an escher painting rolling a hamster wheel...
12:31:20 <oerjan> fungot: yeah, pretty much
12:31:21 <fungot> oerjan: but that is very confusing to me. but it can be used for game dev, you just tend to destroy instead of observe.
12:36:27 <fizzie> I think many game developers are like that.
12:56:53 <oerjan> <elliott> wait, isn't that the COBOL guy <-- yes
12:59:48 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> and yeah lots of topology except they're talking about neighborhoods instead of open sets for whatever reason, i suppose it probably generalizes <-- there are heaps of equivalent definitions of what a topology is, neighborhoods are at least two of them hth
13:00:35 <oerjan> (it's two because you can require the fundamental neigborhoods to be open or not)
13:05:02 <oerjan> @tell Bike open sets, closed sets, closure operation, interior operation, open neighborhoods, general neighborhoods, limit of nets, limit of filters are the ones i can think of on the spot
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13:20:10 <oerjan> "Gödel's ontological proof of God's existence uses as an axiom that the set of all "positive properties" is an ultrafilter."
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14:27:29 <oerjan> <JesseH> Over what I said? I dont think it was even worth mentioning that you are op. <-- fwiw i thought the same thing when kmc did hth
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14:46:34 <oerjan> it looks like mr. "the challenges of changing nicks" came by again
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15:37:53 <elliott> Bike can you figure out a way for me to blame you here.
15:38:17 <oerjan> oh wait, bikes are not to blame for that
15:38:19 <Bike> elliott: biological research on cows releasing large amounts of methane into the atmosphere, causing global warming.
15:38:25 <coppro> the wonderful part of canada
15:38:32 <coppro> is that in the summer it's too hot and in the winter it's too cold
15:39:11 <elliott> Bike: ok but can we try and figure out a way to blame you that doesn't involve cow farts.
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15:40:40 <Bike> that's kind of a tall order man.
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17:32:27 <HackEgo> olist (902): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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18:09:42 <kmc> hi everyone
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18:13:13 <kmc> i hate it when I change code and the changes clearly don't make it into the binary and I don't know why :(
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18:13:24 <kmc> and a clean build from scratch is slow
18:14:12 <kmc> quite possibly
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18:28:56 <Taneb> What's the nick-length limit on IRC/
18:29:21 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Testtesttesttest.
18:29:32 -!- Testtesttesttest has changed nick to Taneb.
18:30:06 <Bike> it's in the server welcome, NICKLEN=16
18:30:42 <Taneb> Because one of my friends has assigned me the nickname "Schrodigner's Rosebud" for inascertainable reasons
18:30:58 <Taneb> And while I am confused I think it does sound pretty cool
18:31:14 <Taneb> So I felt that maybe it was time to change my IRC nick
18:32:40 <Taneb> But alas, it is too long!
18:32:53 <kmc> <shachaf> compiler bug hth <--- oh surprise it's not a compiler bug, it's just me doing something dumb
18:33:00 <Taneb> I cannot see a way to shorten it beyond 20 characters while retaining what made me love it in the first place
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18:34:11 <shachaf> kmc: did you forget to run the compiler
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18:37:30 <Taneb> Did you run the wrong compiler
18:37:40 <Taneb> I highly doubt GHC would compile Rust very well
18:38:34 <kmc> it can compile some things that aren't haskell though
18:39:03 <Taneb> Perhaps you should make GHC able to compile Rust
18:43:03 <kmc> more reasonable would be to teach Cabal to compile Rust
18:43:10 <kmc> so you can easily have Haskell / Rust hybrid projects
18:43:20 <kmc> it does a pretty slick job compiling and linking C with Haskell
18:44:06 <kmc> Haskell/Rust hybrid makes a lot of sense, because Rust is supposed to be a better alternative to C and C++ for stuff where you would generally use C or C++
18:44:09 <kmc> it's not a competitor to Haskell
18:44:38 <kmc> and Rust is C ABI compatible so standard Haskell FFI stuff should work, although it would be cool to have tools that help you pass higher level data structures between them
18:45:08 <Taneb> Sounds like good GSoC material
18:45:45 <kmc> hm, yeah :)
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19:18:06 <Taneb> I did not go to iron as previously asserted
19:18:18 <Taneb> My mum said "I'll do the ironing for you"
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19:42:33 <calamari> I'm on a language hunt. procedural paradigm, with objects, however the objects can't contain methods, and there are no pointers. anyone heard of something like that?
19:44:21 <Bike> no, there can't be that much in the category for OO though
19:45:45 <Bike> well i don't know what you mean by 'procedural paradigm' or 'contain methods'
19:46:23 <calamari> objects typically contain data and methods that work on the data
19:46:46 <calamari> so this would be closer to a struct where it is data only
19:47:53 <Bike> well that would be anything with a record type. which is a lot.
19:48:36 <calamari> maybe I need to make a lang like this
19:49:01 <calamari> and see how it works out.. might be fun
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19:54:48 <fizzie> "Eats iron and shits chain" -- a Finnish idiom.
19:59:53 <ion> I eat iron but that hasn’t happened yet.
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20:04:29 <fizzie> ion: Then you must not be a real Finn.
20:04:41 <fizzie> (Admittedly I have the same "problem".)
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20:05:40 <HackEgo> comex: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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20:05:56 <comex> here is some code written in a language that does not actually have any implementations: http://pastie.org/private/hsxu6u9wdxkeskofefsv5g
20:08:15 <shachaf> I think Rust's new for loop works a bit like that?
20:09:58 <kmc> shachaf: I'm talking in mozilla #rust about Rust-Haskell integration, what do you think?
20:10:43 <shachaf> Haven't been following, let me see.
20:11:27 <comex> maybe i should lurk there
20:12:13 <kmc> a lot of Haskell projects have some C component and it would be cool to use Rust there instead
20:12:29 <kmc> I think you should be able to e.g. allocate an owned box in Rust and then move it to Haskell code as a ForeignPtr
20:12:44 <kmc> and you could definitely write a tool to help marshal algebraic data between the languages
20:13:18 <kmc> calling into your low-level realtime code but still having algebraic data would be awesome
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20:14:46 <Fiora> kmc: how does that kind of interfacing work, with like, lazy evaluation and haskelly data structures and stuff?
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20:15:37 <kmc> well turning a Haskell algebraic data structure into a Rust algebraic data structure will involve copying, since they have totally different layout etc.
20:16:02 <kmc> but Haskell also has primitives for working with unboxed arrays, raw C pointers, etc., and tools for wrapping safe interfaces around these things
20:16:18 <kmc> for example ByteString is ultimately backed by a contiguous chunk of memory allocated with malloc()
20:17:08 <Fiora> so like, in haskell, I can declare an array that's just an array of C doubles, and pass it to C without copying?
20:17:13 <Fiora> since it's just an array of doubles
20:17:27 <kmc> useful e.g. for calling some C matrix library
20:17:31 <kmc> (or FORTRAN matrix library!!)
20:17:48 <kmc> of course when you do these things you lose some of the memory safety guarantees of Haskell
20:17:53 <kmc> likewise in Rust
20:18:13 <kmc> but in many cases, a good Haskell wrapper for a C library can provide a high level safe interface, even if the guts involve mucking about with allocation and raw pointers
20:18:26 <kmc> and the same is true in Rust basically
20:18:30 <Bike> does haskell (or ghc whatever) actually use malloc and not something that works better with gc'd areas?
20:18:51 <shachaf> That's a library, not something implemented in GHC.
20:18:57 <kmc> the GHC GC doesn't need to know anything about the guts of a ByteString, and would have nothing useful to do with them anyway
20:19:02 <shachaf> Data.Text uses GHC-managed byte arrays.
20:19:55 <kmc> Bike: ByteString uses http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/4.2.0.1/doc/html/Foreign-ForeignPtr.html
20:20:21 <kmc> pointer to an object not managed by the GHC RTS, with an attached finalizer that runs when the last copy of that pointer disappears
20:20:28 <kmc> which in this case would just call free()
20:20:35 <Bike> i'm just thinking, like, doesn't malloc involve plenty of overhead
20:20:45 <kmc> use a better malloc then ;P
20:21:05 <shachaf> One of the goals of ByteString is to be interoperable with C code.
20:21:06 <kmc> I don't know; what about the ByteString allocation case makes you think that a specialized allocator could do better than the system default general allocator
20:21:25 <kmc> shachaf: presumably that doesn't include freeing a ByteString from C, though. or do they have a "transfer ownership" method?
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20:21:34 <kmc> you can't really do that safely in Haskell, but you can in Rust, which is cool
20:22:10 <kmc> Bike: the thing about ByteString is that it's a general immutable byte buffer type; it could be small or large, have all kinds of different access patterns, etc. according to the application
20:22:20 <Bike> well i'm just thinking like, for malloc you have to have an area of memory laid out into blocks and all, but the runtime might already be doing something of that for itself
20:22:26 <kmc> so I think if you can beat malloc() for ByteString then you should just use that better algorithm as malloc()
20:22:31 <kmc> but I'm not positive
20:22:42 <kmc> like shachaf said GHC does have its own routines for allocating contiguous arrays
20:22:44 <comex> Bike: there is almost certainly libc in the process already
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20:23:02 <Bike> is there? I don't know.
20:23:02 <kmc> btw foreign calls from Haskell to C can be made very fast
20:23:08 <kmc> foreign calls from Rust to C are slow atm :/
20:23:10 <comex> unless there is some way to do static linking
20:23:38 <kmc> because Rust uses small segmented stacks, and for a C call you have to jump to a big stack, and perhaps allocate one too
20:23:46 <comex> ...why does it do that?
20:23:47 <kmc> there isn't a good reason to use segmented stacks on 64-bit architectures, though
20:24:19 <kmc> Rust wants to support lightweight threading and if you allocate a new large stack for every thread, you will quickly run out of 32-bit address space
20:25:05 <shachaf> Is there an unsafe fast C call for things that don't use much stack space?
20:25:17 <Fiora> lightweight thrads, like um... stackless python or something?
20:25:18 <comex> you'd think you could say "this C call will only be used from threads that have previously called <allocate big stack function>"
20:25:22 <comex> well, maybe it will be improved
20:25:27 <kmc> but the OS will lazily allocate physical pages, so you're only constrained by virtual address space and not by actual memory
20:25:39 <kmc> comex: yeah, there is various discussion of improvements
20:26:10 <kmc> shachaf: I think there is such a thing hardcoded for the runtime's calls to e.g. malloc and free, but I don't think you can write a general foreign import that works that way
20:26:15 <comex> though google says segmented stacks themselves have a large performance hit
20:26:28 <Fiora> is jumping to another stack, like, bad? I mean, you could like, keep a few arund to use or something, right?
20:26:31 <kmc> you have to check "do I need more stack" on every function call pretty much :(
20:26:53 <Fiora> oh! that reminds me of this which is kind of interesting
20:26:55 <Fiora> kmc: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/100775
20:26:58 <comex> why? can't you just have a guard page?
20:27:14 <kmc> Fiora: yeah I don't know... maybe they want to deallocate them eagerly, because otherwise every thread that has ever made a C call is no longer lightweight
20:27:30 <Fiora> functions that use large amounts of stack have to poke each page they're allocating in order to trigger the guard page
20:27:47 <Fiora> I think, at least? I read it a long time ago...
20:28:03 <kmc> comex: yeah, if you know that the function won't jump more than 1 page up the stack
20:28:07 <kmc> which you could know statically sometimes
20:28:11 <Fiora> kmc: isn't the stack like, thrown away the instant the C function returns? so like, it doesn't need to keep using that big stack chunk thing
20:29:02 <Fiora> (I must be missing something)
20:29:02 <kmc> but if the function might jump 10 pages up the stack, then you need 10 guard pages, and in the limit you are using so much VM that you might as well have a big stack
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20:29:26 <kmc> you're suggesting a pool of big stacks for calling C?
20:29:32 <kmc> that might already be how it works; I'm not sure
20:29:49 <Fiora> I wonder how stack guard pages work on different OSs... there must be standards or something...
20:29:55 <Fiora> since that link is just like, windows
20:30:06 <Fiora> (I think it's "ensure we only need one guard page"?)
20:30:16 <shachaf> Did you know checkinstall's wrappers around libc calls allocate lots of big structs containing n*MAX_PATH bytes on the stack?
20:30:34 <shachaf> I found this out when I tried to checkinstall something which was using a coroutine library with small stacks.
20:30:46 <shachaf> "make install" ran "make test", which ran some binaries, which called open() etc.
20:31:35 * Fiora goes to try to compile a linux function that uses a lot of stack to see what the compiler does.
20:31:40 <shachaf> kmc: Isn't there a thing where a debugger can mark pages with the objects unreadable to catch accesses in software?
20:32:00 <shachaf> Of course that would be very slow.
20:32:13 <olsner> Fiora: you could just map the maximum stack size and lazily provide physical pages, then you don't need a guard page and you'll just get a normal page fault if you go outside the stack
20:32:14 <kmc> yeah, GDB can do that
20:32:28 <Fiora> olsner: but like, what if past the guard page is other valid memory?
20:32:47 <Fiora> but like, couldn't it be something you're not supposed to be clobbering?
20:32:51 <Fiora> like other program data
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20:33:01 <comex> olsner: and then you run out of address space :)
20:33:02 <olsner> sure, then some stuff breaks :)
20:33:09 <comex> i don't care about x86, but i do care about ARM
20:33:10 <Fiora> that... doesn't sound like a good idea XD
20:33:34 <olsner> don't run out of stack, hth
20:33:56 <comex> actually, please use recursion a lot and don't check for overflow
20:34:03 <comex> so you can be sploited
20:34:33 <kmc> george w bush doesn't care about x86
20:34:46 <shachaf> Joke's on you, I used tail recursion!
20:35:00 <kmc> comex: did you see the Linux security hole that resulted from a driver that used a C99 VLA with user-controlled size?
20:35:10 <comex> no, but I believe I found at least one such hole in OS X
20:35:25 <kmc> Linux kernel stacks are only 8 kB usually
20:35:34 <kmc> not hard to overflow one
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20:38:18 <Fiora> geez, even if I try to make a function that uses like 8 megabytes of stack it doesn't do anything like chkstk
20:38:22 <Fiora> I guess that's just a windows thing >_<
20:38:39 <kmc> yeah I don't think Linux programs detect stack overflow typically
20:39:05 <Fiora> I wonder why that's just a windows ABI thing...
20:39:48 <comex> because you shouldn't be using that much stack, it's silly
20:39:55 <kmc> windows also has SEH
20:40:06 <comex> and if you say VLAs - you shouldn't be using VLAs, ever
20:40:13 <kmc> i love VLAs, they're so easy
20:40:16 <comex> well, at least without checking the size you're allocating
20:40:22 <comex> but really, better not to use them ever :)
20:40:26 <Fiora> 401170: 56 push esi
20:40:27 <Fiora> 401171: b8 80 3e 00 00 mov eax,0x3e80
20:40:27 <Fiora> 401176: 53 push ebx
20:40:27 <Fiora> 401177: e8 64 00 00 00 call 4011e0 <___chkstk>
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20:40:43 <olsner> culture difference, I guess... windows went "failures have to be detected and abort the program" vs linux "don't run out of stack or you'll have weird and undefined problems"
20:40:59 <Fiora> abort...? I thought the idea was to like, add more pages (?)
20:41:08 <kmc> http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14236 is fun... don't use VLAs and alloca() together in GCC or you're gonna have a bad time
20:41:13 <Fiora> like you have a guard page and then if you hit it you throw more on the end or am I totally misunderstanding
20:41:20 <kmc> 9 year old open bug
20:41:51 <kmc> not as epic as http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=323
20:41:59 <shachaf> Fiora: Your link says "issues an overflow error".
20:42:15 <shachaf> Or maybe you're talking about something else?
20:42:24 <Fiora> sorry, I can't read >_<
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20:43:03 <olsner> you probably get pages allocated automatically up until the guard page, and the guard page is between the stack and the heap or something else in address space
20:43:13 <olsner> to detect and prevent the stack from overlapping that other stuff
20:43:42 <Fiora> on 64-bit wouldn't it have a ton of address space, so it can just like, lazily allocate the stack to avoid wasting memory, or... (?)
20:43:42 <kmc> when you're lucky yeah
20:44:05 <kmc> on any modern OS (32- or 64-bit) the physical pages of the stack will be allocated lazily
20:44:10 <kmc> like any other anonymous mapping basically
20:44:36 <kmc> and that doesn't have to be contiguous or anything
20:44:44 <Fiora> wow.... that 9 year old bug. that's... a lot of duplicates
20:44:52 <kmc> and is basically transparent to user code
20:44:58 <shachaf> I'll take comex's advice and use alloca instead of VLAs.
20:44:59 <kmc> on Linux (and probably other OSes) the virtual memory mapping itself also grows on faults
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20:45:30 <kmc> this is not transparent; you could mmap() something in the way and then it won't be able to grow anymore
20:45:55 <Fiora> oh geez. is this like an x87 80-bit/64-bit bug thing? like um... that... that php infinite loop double thing
20:46:02 <kmc> that's how i found this ticket
20:46:21 <kmc> it has a lot of dupes because people keep claiming that gcc's -ffast-math behavior is a compiler bug when in fact it's perfectly reasonable and documented
20:46:26 <kmc> more like -fwrong-math
20:46:41 <Fiora> oh, is this only with -ffast-math?
20:46:50 <kmc> there's another huge bug thread that basically has a dupe from everyone who doesn't understand sequence points and claims a compiler bug for that reason
20:46:54 <kmc> i think so
20:47:13 <kmc> maybe not?
20:47:19 <olsner> I don't think -O enables fast-math
20:47:22 <lambdabot> monochrom says: 8-bit word uses less memory, but if it doesn't have to preserve information, I know how to use 0 bits of memory.
20:47:24 <Fiora> Bike: oh gosh. now I'm thinking of um. that x87 guy
20:47:28 <kmc> bleh I should be working instead of talking about cool things :/
20:47:50 <Bike> not the x87 guy D:
20:48:08 <Bike> internal tzetze problem: i conflate the x87 guy and zeilberger in my head, because they are both crazy
20:48:46 <Bike> so, unrelatedly, somebody is asking for recommendations for books to self-study high school algebra
20:48:54 <Bike> and i'm blanking because like, that was years ago. any ideas?
20:50:20 <olsner> I wonder what C actually specifies should happen with this excess precision
20:50:29 <olsner> (I also wonder if I really want to know)
20:53:48 <kmc> knowing is half the battle
20:54:53 <Fiora> Bike: I'm now imagining, like, a bunch of bearded linux programmers holding signs in front of his houses
20:55:00 <comex> i believe C specifies IEEE 754
20:55:03 <Fiora> "GIVE US BACK OUR COMMUTIVITY"
20:55:21 <comex> well... if __STDC_IEC_559__ is set, anyway
20:55:43 <kmc> `quote __STDC_IEC_559__
20:55:45 <HackEgo> 852) <zzo38> What is portable way of load/save floating points in files, using a C code? <kmc> #ifndef __STDC_IEC_559__ #error Here's a nickel, kid. Buy a real computer. #endif
20:56:12 <kmc> hm do IEEE 754 floats vary with machine endianness?
20:56:33 <kmc> so my answer isn't just unhelpful, it's also wrong :'(
20:56:48 <comex> not the end of the world, you have to swap everything else already
20:57:32 <Bike> i follow an evolutionary biomechanist on twitter and he posts cat gifs and elephants
20:57:40 <olsner> eww, don't swap. serialize.
20:58:02 <kmc> I guess the real answer involves frexp() or something
20:58:58 <comex> easier in any higher level language
21:00:07 <kmc> serializing floats efficiently and without losing precision is moderately tricky
21:00:33 <kmc> it's annoying that frexp() still returns a floating point mantissa, not an integer one
21:00:34 <olsner> well, at least using some read/write_portable_float function is easy, writing those functions might be less so
21:00:54 <Bike> it should be reasonably ok as long as you don't have to change base right
21:02:34 <Fiora> "It looks like the standard xgcc for the arm-elf target uses little endian byte order but big endian word order (1.0 => 0x0000F03F 0x00000000)." scary
21:03:50 <olsner> cool, I thought all mixed-endian platforms were dead
21:04:06 <kmc> the PDP isn't dead! it's running nuclear reactors as we speak
21:04:14 <kmc> until 2050
21:04:29 <kmc> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/nuke_plants_to_keep_pdp11_until_2050/
21:04:47 <Fiora> I think that might be a softfloat thing?
21:05:06 <Fiora> like for ARMs where all the double stuff has to be emulated
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21:06:53 <Bike> that's not as funny.
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21:31:41 <oerjan> does pdp11 have something like the year 2038 problem?
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21:32:30 <oerjan> maybe that's _why_ they will stop in 2050
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21:38:37 <oerjan> wait when running unix it probably has 2038 problems, period. maybe.
21:40:14 <Taneb> I've got 2038 problems but Y2K ain't one
21:49:58 <oerjan> <Taneb> And messed it up <-- i conclude you are better at ironing than your mother
21:50:32 <Taneb> I'm better at reading instructions for t-shirt transfers than my mother
21:51:01 <oerjan> she ruined your cosplay shirt? :(
21:51:26 <olsner> would a nuclear reactor run unix?
21:52:00 <Taneb> oerjan, nah, just didn't do it very well
21:52:03 <olsner> oerjan: that doesn't help
21:52:07 <Fiora> cosplaying a homestuck?
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21:54:06 <Taneb> Yeah, Jake English
21:54:35 <Fiora> you should totally go with a Dirk
21:55:10 <Taneb> Don't know anyone who cosplays Dirk who doesn't have their own Jake :)
21:55:20 <Taneb> Sadness was the emotion I wanted
21:55:39 <Fiora> I get what you meant!
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22:02:06 <Bike> http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/files/2013/07/Tall-remora-figure-600.jpg remoras have stylish hats
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22:13:07 <oerjan> <Bike> does haskell (or ghc whatever) actually use malloc and not something that works better with gc'd areas? <-- note that the ByteString mentions are a special case done by the library; normal haskell types get allocated through ghc's own GC-adapted system, which doesn't use malloc but instead OS-dependent large memory allocation calls (i think mmap for linux)
22:15:45 <oerjan> so basically, ghc's runtime normally does handle most of it by itself
22:31:45 <kmc> normal Haskell objects are garbage collected and can be moved, which means allocation can be super fast
22:32:32 <shachaf> I don't know whether GHC's allocator uses mmap or malloc for allocating the big chunks of memory tht it manages, but I doubt that really matters.
22:32:41 <kmc> right, they're like 4 MB
22:33:00 <kmc> you have a region for new objects, and a pointer to where the next object goes, and you just bump that pointer on every alloc
22:33:06 <kmc> no need to find a good fit in a free list, like malloc does
22:33:22 <kmc> and then once some of those objects die, the GC can move things around
22:47:01 <kmc> I think if you ask most mallocs for 4 MB they will call mmap anyway
22:48:39 <Fiora> that means GHC can use the big pages, right?
22:49:20 <kmc> yeah but it doesn't
22:49:30 <kmc> except that Linux will transparently use big pages these days
22:51:28 <shachaf> linux calls them "huge pages"
22:51:37 <shachaf> much better name than windows's "large pages" imo
22:52:03 <Fiora> I remember reading that AMD now supported like 2GB pages but the big ones in linux were 2MB which confused me a little
22:52:38 <Fiora> (maybe it was a misprint?)
22:53:04 <shachaf> I think there are several sizes.
22:53:07 <olsner> afaik, 1GB and 2MB are the only "big" page sizes supported on amd64
22:53:14 <shachaf> 2GB pages sound like a very specialized sort of thing.
22:53:16 <olsner> but in some 32-bit you can get 4MB pages
22:53:22 <Fiora> how does 1GB pages work?
22:53:35 <pikhq_> As you'd expect. It's a page that's 1G.
22:53:45 <pikhq_> It's not used much courtesy of being niche.
22:53:53 <Fiora> oh, so like, something like linux wouldn't support it?
22:54:08 <kmc> that sounds useful for setting up direct mappings within your kernel
22:54:19 <kmc> not as useful for userspace
22:55:19 <olsner> 2MB and 1GB pages use the same mechanism (a bit in the page table entry says it's a big page rather than a pointer to another level of page tables)
22:55:53 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Enormous_Sunfish.jpg this fish is bullshit
22:55:58 <kmc> ls /sys/kernel/mm/hugepages
22:56:00 <kmc> to see the supported sizes
22:56:03 <kmc> I only have 2048kB
22:56:27 <pikhq_> I bet Linux doesn't export support for 1G pages to userspace.
22:56:33 <olsner> but for some reason 4TB pages don't exist (despite having the exact same structure and an available bit)
22:56:34 <shachaf> I think you need to enable 1GB pages at boot time.
22:56:34 <kmc> yeah, I don't think it does
22:56:38 <pikhq_> Courtesy of being dubious.
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22:57:01 <olsner> 1GB pages require cpu support too, and doesn't seem to be supported by most intel cpus
22:57:02 <kmc> could be useful for database servers or such
22:57:02 <shachaf> I thought the 1GB pages were exposed to userspace?
22:57:09 <kmc> can you have a file-backed hugepage mapping
22:57:48 <Fiora> Bike: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Mola-mola-Lisboa-20051020.jpg it's kind of cute
22:58:28 <kmc> oh yeah I saw one of those in Galápagos
22:58:33 <kmc> weird fish
22:59:22 <Bike> «he Chinese translation of its academic name is fan-che yu 翻車魚, meaning "toppled car fish"» it's pretty orientalist of me but i really dig literal translations of chinese translations
22:59:42 <Bike> Fiora: cute, and weightier than a smartcar
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23:00:35 <Fiora> you got to go to galapagos? wow
23:01:01 <Bike> wow it's literally heavier than a fortwo.
23:01:25 <Bike> on average. big sunfish apparently get up to 2.3 Mg which is a bit horrifying
23:03:08 <olsner> (looks like pdpe1gb is the cpuinfo flag to check for)
23:03:40 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mola_mola-Skelett,_Naturhistorisches_Museum_Wien.jpg yo wassup
23:03:44 <Fiora> wow. that's a huge fish
23:04:41 <Bike> "By basking on its side at the surface, the sunfish also allows seabirds to feed on parasites from its skin." cute
23:05:54 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:05:55 <Bike> "Sea lions appear to hunt sunfish for sport, tearing the fins off, tossing the body around, and then simply abandoning the still-living but helpless fish to die on the seafloor" less cute
23:06:29 <Fiora> "Newly hatched sunfish larvae are only 2.5 mm (0.098 in) long."
23:06:58 <Fiora> "Injuries from sunfish are rare, although there is a slight danger from large sunfish leaping out of the water onto boats; in one instance a boy was knocked off his boat when a sunfish leaped onto it."
23:07:32 <Fiora> "The by-catch rate is even higher for the Mediterranean swordfish industry, with 71% to 90% of the total catch being sunfish."
23:07:38 <Fiora> that is kind of amazing
23:07:46 <Fiora> "we're a swordfish fishery. 90% of our catch is actually sunfish"
23:10:32 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Mola_mola.jpg gosh they look so adorably doofy XD
23:11:02 <Bike> they weigh as much of a car and lay 300 million eggs at a time, i'm amazed anybody catches anything else :p
23:12:32 <Bike> i mean obviously they almost all die.
23:13:11 <shachaf> What do you call concurrency things that aren't primitives?
23:16:01 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rhtyp_u0_white_bg.gif lookin' at big fish now
23:16:06 <Bike> in the form of weird pixel art
23:18:23 <Fiora> I was looking at that one too <.<
23:20:34 <shachaf> kmc: I linked someone in #haskell to the FAQ and they ignored it so people started typing the same thing in the channel instead.
23:20:45 <shachaf> What do you do to get people to actually read links?
23:21:02 <kmc> i suggest disproportionate violence
23:22:04 <Fiora> I suggest friendliness!
23:22:20 <kmc> http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/0.7/std/cast.html Rust has so many different exciting kinds of unsafe cast!
23:22:29 <shachaf> Fiora: what kind of friendliness
23:22:46 <kmc> I like "forget: Move a thing into the void"
23:22:49 <shachaf> kmc: imo it's missing "transmogrify"
23:23:16 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spy_hopping#Spyhopping ethology is the best
23:23:32 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megamouth_shark @_@
23:23:34 <Bike> Fiora: "i suggest disproportionate friendliness"
23:23:43 <kmc> #haskell already has plenty of that
23:23:55 <Bike> kmc: "This can be used for various acts of magick." dorks
23:24:13 <shachaf> Bike: what's with insulting people like that all the time
23:24:20 <kmc> http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/std/local_data.html "Casting 'Arcane Sight' reveals an overwhelming aura of Transmutation magic."
23:26:01 <Bike> shachaf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8
23:26:39 <kmc> is that from Homer Goes to College?
23:27:02 <kmc> great episode
23:27:06 <kmc> written by conan o'brien
23:27:19 <kmc> presumably he does it because we're all huge dorks and that makes it funny
23:27:48 <kmc> i don't mind because "dork" is a pretty mild, even affectionate label
23:30:21 <Bike> that's the idea yeah
23:30:41 <Bike> i'm sitting here reading about extinct sharks, i'm not in a position to stuff you into your locker
23:32:03 <shachaf> i'm not particularly worried about being stuffed into lockers
23:32:15 <kmc> what's the best extinct shark
23:33:28 <Bike> i guess megalodon is too obvious.
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23:34:56 <Fiora> I would say when I say dork I mean it affectionately but bike will probably just counter by telling me that I mean everything affectionately
23:35:19 <kmc> how do the two of you know each other, anyway?
23:35:39 <Bike> a different irc channel
23:35:47 <Fiora> he dragged me here from a place
23:36:04 <Bike> this is what happens when you're a shut-in, see, you just meet everybody online
23:36:05 <shachaf> Fiora: "doooooorks" seems to have pretty obvious insult undertones
23:36:11 <shachaf> i mean, it's also pretty obviously a joke
23:36:24 <shachaf> the joke is that he's acting as if he's insulting you but he doesn't actually mean it
23:37:31 <shachaf> <#haskell> haskell is the best. but i can imagine things, which could be better.
23:37:49 <Bike> it would be kind of an interesting real life meeting that had both a 20yo dropout biologist thing and also fiora the haxor
23:38:32 <olsner> is Bike the dropout biologist thing?
23:38:47 <Fiora> in any sense, really
23:39:28 <Bike> how do you explain that you were sighted in an 80s movie talking about firewalls!
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23:39:41 <shachaf> i thought you were one iff people called you one
23:40:01 <shachaf> the question is just which kind you are
23:40:16 <kmc> can i be a haxxxor
23:40:31 <Bike> dude i'm underage
23:40:48 <Fiora> I wasn't even alive in the 80s <_>
23:41:09 <Fiora> shachaf: http://puu.sh/3y07p.gif
23:41:11 <shachaf> kmc: that's too many xs. that's just ridiculous
23:41:14 <Bike> i am complete, olsner, but not consistent.
23:43:32 <shachaf> kmc: i like how function call is actually an operation on function pointers, not functions, in C
23:43:38 <kmc> what kind of "underage" are we talking
23:43:43 <shachaf> just like x[y] is an operation on pointers, not arrays
23:43:48 <Bike> Fiora: cool how it goes in and out of focus
23:44:25 <kmc> im 25 years old
23:44:25 <lambdabot> *** "overage" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:44:26 <lambdabot> adj 1: too old to be useful; "He left the house...for the
23:44:26 <lambdabot> support of twelve superannuated wool carders"- Anthony
23:44:26 <lambdabot> Trollope [syn: {overage}, {overaged}, {superannuated},
23:44:33 <lambdabot> n 1: a surplus or excess of money or merchandise that is
23:44:33 <lambdabot> actually on hand and that exceeds expectations
23:44:51 <shachaf> underage is the lack of money or merchandise compared to expectations
23:45:10 <shachaf> underäge, on the other hand...............
23:45:12 <olsner> shachaf: although functions decay to function pointers quickly, I don't think function calls actually also do that
23:46:44 <Fiora> Bike: anyways I think the meeting would probably involve us both being awkward and me being shy and nobody saying anything for a while
23:47:06 <Bike> should be like my other offline meets: involving pizza and action films
23:47:08 <kmc> that's why you need some loudmouth people around too
23:47:12 <kmc> like me? sometimes?
23:47:18 <kmc> but sometimes I am also shy and awkward
23:47:37 <Bike> well if we get enough internet people /someone/ must be a loudmouth... right...............?
23:47:39 <shachaf> i can confirm all of the above
23:48:02 <shachaf> probably not around people i don't know p. well
23:49:08 <olsner> "Web homescreens", "cloud desktops": the core interface of devices
23:49:20 <Bike> those sound like star trek words.
23:49:31 <kmc> shachaf: do you know me p. well, now?
23:50:15 <olsner> does anyone else read "BS in Computer Science" as Bullshit in CS?
23:50:46 <Bike> you know the saying. bullshit, more shit, piled higher and deeper
23:52:58 <fizzie> olsner: The function call operator is specified to take a function pointer (with a footnote something like "usually from a conversion of a function designator"), so I'd say they do.
23:53:21 <shachaf> fizzie: so what can you do with actual functions
23:53:46 <Bike> cast them to char[] and go fucking nuts, imo
23:54:31 <shachaf> you can try to take their sizeof (and fail)
23:54:32 <kmc> you can typedef function types in addition to function pointer types, which is neat
23:55:06 <Fiora> so you can do, like, putc(*(char*)foo);?
23:55:32 <fizzie> shachaf: You can apply the & operator to one, to get a pointer to the function.
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23:55:41 <Bike> i really doubt that's portable, i just think it would be funny
23:55:47 <shachaf> fizzie: or you can do j. about anything else with it
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23:55:53 <shachaf> and get the same pointer??
23:55:58 <olsner> ... that was not the right key
23:56:23 <kmc> int main() { typedef int foo(const char *); foo puts; puts("hello world"); return 0; }
23:56:33 <fizzie> shachaf: Yes. But the j. about anything would presumably act on the result of the conversion, not the actual function.
23:57:10 <shachaf> fizzie: right, i mean that doing & doesn't do you a w. lot of good compared to just letting the function decay
23:57:12 <Fiora> foo.c:10:1: warning: ISO C forbids conversion of function pointer to object poin
23:57:21 <olsner> Fiora: I think that's undefined if foo is a function since a function isn't a char
23:57:22 <shachaf> i mean, you can say sizeof &foo, i suppose
23:57:24 <Fiora> but at least in my gcc that's a pedantic
23:57:30 <Fiora> sorry, I meant *(char)*&foo
23:57:42 <fizzie> Fiora: I was about to say that. You can't convert a function pointer to a void * either.
23:57:49 <shachaf> just cast it to uintptr_t or something first hth
23:57:50 <olsner> and/or because of function pointers being weirder than pointers and not really convertible
23:57:53 <shachaf> that'll make it defined behavior again
23:59:52 <fizzie> You can't convert any pointer (in a defined way) to uintptr_t (if it even exists), just a void *.
00:00:25 <fizzie> shachaf: In C11, you can also try and equally much fail to apply _Alignof to a function. (Being the argument of sizeof, _Alignof and & is the exhaustive list of when the conversion-to-pointer doesn't happen.)
00:00:32 <olsner> hmm, so even if uintptr_t exists, you can't use it to store pointers?
00:00:38 <shachaf> fizzie: wow that's p. useless
00:01:00 <fizzie> olsner: You can use it to store any object pointer, if you go via void *.
00:01:01 <kmc> you can probably memcpy a pointer to a uintptr_t
00:01:31 <fizzie> The pointer can be larger than a uintptr_t, so I don't think so.
00:02:07 <fizzie> Also the resulting uintptr_t value could presumably be a trap representation.
00:02:21 <olsner> that sounds like a p. bad uintptr_t type
00:02:32 <fizzie> Unless that was a "can probably in real life", which is certainly true.
00:02:44 <pikhq_> You can *store* non-function pointers in a uintptr_t, it'sw just not guaranteed to have at all the same representation.
00:02:59 <pikhq_> It's merely guaranteed that you can round-trip the cast.
00:03:10 <fizzie> pikhq_: And it needs to be a void * before the conversion.
00:03:20 * Fiora googles "c pastebin that runs code", gets ideone
00:03:53 <Fiora> http://ideone.com/RnuxoZ I am a really truly terrible awful person
00:04:00 <fizzie> "-- any valid pointer to void can be converted to this type, then converted back to pointer to void, and the result will compare equal to the original pointer --"
00:04:11 <shachaf> Fiora: did you ever see sizeof.c
00:04:14 <pikhq_> Also, in POSIX you *can* convert void* to/from function pointers.
00:04:26 <shachaf> Fiora: http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/c/sizeof.c
00:04:38 <shachaf> the puzzle is what does that print
00:04:45 <olsner> pikhq_: aww, POSIX adding boring sanity to C again
00:04:54 <Fiora> I'd... guess... e?
00:05:04 <Fiora> so um.... whatever the ascii for e is
00:05:05 <pikhq_> Necessary for dlsym. :)
00:05:33 <olsner> hmm, maybe it prints 1
00:06:31 <Fiora> how does that work O___O
00:06:34 <fizzie> Operator precedence: it's what's for dinner.
00:06:49 -!- carado has joined.
00:06:50 <fizzie> Fiora: What's the type of (0)["..."].
00:07:03 <shachaf> fizzie is giving it away :'(
00:07:13 <Bike> i like how any time this channel talks about C it makes me want C to die and be replaced with Rust.
00:07:15 <Fiora> oh. this this is because of that....
00:07:19 <Bike> or. really anything else.
00:07:27 <pikhq_> Note that sizeof is the operator, not sizeof().
00:07:28 <Fiora> sizeof being a keyword and not having function semantics -_-
00:07:29 -!- carado_ has joined.
00:07:40 <shachaf> this is really a syntax thing
00:07:45 <pikhq_> sizeof is basically an unary operator.
00:07:47 <Fiora> synsmeanticosomethign
00:07:50 <shachaf> this is why you should write "sizeof x" and not "sizeof(x)"
00:08:38 <shachaf> it's like a function application in haskell or something
00:08:48 <shachaf> the expression is "sizeof x", and you can put parentheses around it
00:09:02 <shachaf> now, for a type, you can think of it as "sizeof (T)" imo
00:09:09 <shachaf> where "(T)" is like a cast or something?? i don't know
00:09:58 * Fiora is kind of clueless at C really
00:10:11 <fizzie> It's like types like to have round things around them, that's why the compound-literal syntax is also (T){ initializer }.
00:10:31 <fizzie> Like crazies and padded walls, y'see.
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00:11:28 <Bike> does this C ever come up in practice, fiora
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00:11:42 <Bike> also i can't look at the .c for some reason. very mysterious.
00:11:58 -!- shachaf has joined.
00:12:34 <shachaf> p. sure this is a tmux bug
00:12:38 <fizzie> A lecturer at the university told us you declare a floating-point variable called "x" in C by writing the statement "c real;".
00:12:53 <kmc> C, Fortran, what's the difference really.
00:13:06 <fizzie> (He was kind of a Pascal guy at heart, I think; but it was a C course.)
00:13:33 <fizzie> Uh, I mean, "x real;". It wasn't a *blatant* lie.
00:13:41 <olsner> I accidentally some BASIC code once when I was trying to teach Ada
00:14:06 <pikhq_> fizzie: The floats are not even a subset of the reals.
00:14:32 <Bike> #define c float, #define real x, problem solved
00:14:38 <fizzie> Well, I mean, "blatant" as in "completely obvious" (if you didn't know any C).
00:15:04 <pikhq_> And somehow don't know a thing about floats.
00:15:21 <pikhq_> Note that floating point values in general are not subsets of the reals.
00:15:22 <Bike> pikhq_: well he'd hardly be alone in conflating floats and reals :/
00:15:45 <shachaf> ɪ ʀᴇᴀʟʟy ᴛʜɪɴᴋ yᴏᴜ ꜱʜᴏᴜʟᴅ ɪɴᴠᴇꜱᴛ ɪɴ ɢᴏᴀᴛꜱ, ᴋᴍᴄ
00:15:47 <fizzie> You could know a thing about floats and still think "real" is just the name given to them in a language.
00:16:01 <pikhq_> But then the language itself would lie.
00:16:13 * pikhq_ also rants against decimal float literals, so.
00:16:47 <fizzie> Now, zomplex... there's a real type for real men. Er, I mean, complex type.
00:17:06 <pikhq_> Remember kids, 0.1 is not representable as a float. :)
00:17:25 <Bike> what about a decimal float!!
00:17:26 <fizzie> Base-10 floats are perfectly legal, though.
00:17:36 <pikhq_> I'm assuming binary floats, sorry.
00:17:37 <olsner> shachaf: how much is a reasonable amount to invest in goats?
00:17:48 <pikhq_> Yes, if you use base 10 floats then decimal float literals are utterly reasonable.
00:18:11 <fizzie> ('zomplex' is the double-precision variant of 'complex' in some SGI things, among others.)
00:18:42 <Bike> what we need is binary float literals
00:18:43 <fizzie> (I guess 'domplex' sounded too silly?)
00:18:51 <pikhq_> Bike: Hex float literals are a thing.
00:19:14 <Bike> too complicated, 1s and 0s 101ever.
00:19:30 <fizzie> They have the exponent (of 2) in decimal, which is slightly strange, if reasonable.
00:19:54 <pikhq_> fizzie: Strange, sure, but *shrug*
00:20:00 <Bike> five ever, yes.
00:20:12 <fizzie> Is that like forever but longer?
00:20:16 <pikhq_> The point is that it's got a definite mapping to a particular float.
00:20:23 <Bike> fizzie: obviously.
00:20:40 <pikhq_> In a way that doesn't make people assume decimal fractional representations work sanely.
00:21:27 <Bike> yeah, i understand. i've read the papers on reading and writing decimal floats, they are appropriately horrifying
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00:24:00 <fizzie> Strange quirk: even if FLT_RADIX is 10, and it's representable, decimal floating-point constants don't have to yield the exact value.
00:24:15 <fizzie> (Hex floats do, if FLT_RADIX is 2.)
00:24:28 <Bike> pikhq's influence no doubt.
00:24:52 <pikhq_> fizzie: Radix of 10 but represented with a binary value would do it.
00:24:55 <Fiora> "The value is 2 on all machines we know of except the IBM 360 and derivatives. " @_@ what did the IBM 360 do?
00:25:20 <pikhq_> Fiora: Decimal floats.
00:25:28 <Fiora> "a system where FLT_RADIX is
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00:25:43 <Fiora> http://www.mailinglistarchive.com/html/fortran@gcc.gnu.org/2006-09/msg01338.html I found this?
00:25:54 <pikhq_> I guess that's not the *craziest* possible, but...
00:25:55 <kmc> i like that "IBM 360 and derivatives" is a 50 year product line that continues to this day
00:25:56 <Fiora> http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/zvm/v6r1/index.jsp?topic=/com.ibm.zvm.v610.edclv/floath.htm and this
00:26:07 <Fiora> what does it like... what does it mean to be 16?
00:26:33 <Bike> ibm 360 succeeded by the ibm one
00:27:06 <fizzie> My calculator does decimal floats, but there's no C on it.
00:27:15 <pikhq_> Fiora: Floats are of the form xxx * 16^yyy
00:28:37 <Fiora> is that, like, functionally different from the 2-base?
00:28:50 <Fiora> like um. why would they do it that way
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00:30:42 <kmc> fizzie: can you be sure of that
00:32:07 <fizzie> kmc: About the "no C" part? I guess not; I mean, it's already untrue in the sense that I'm sure you can get code compiled with SDCC run on it; but I'm not aware of any C that'd use the (ROM) routines for decimal floats to implement a floating-point type.
00:32:52 <olsner> Fiora: maybe it's something like in base-2 floats you can multiply/divide by two by changing the exponent, but in base-16 you can only change by a factor of 16
00:33:28 <Fiora> would it have like, the same range of representable values ?
00:34:18 <Bike> you could change the bias of the exponent, i guess
00:34:31 <fizzie> It would have a different range-vs-precision tradeoff for a particular number of bits for mantissa/exponent, at least.
00:35:40 <Fiora> I guess it'd be like a hexadecimal float or something super weird?
00:35:55 <olsner> sounds like that's exactly what it is
00:36:47 <shachaf> kmc: adjunctions are p. nifty imo
00:37:05 <Bike> it seems mildly pointless, obviously any 16 float can be converted to a 2 float by adding four to the exponent
00:39:14 <olsner> multiplying by 4, I think
00:39:19 <fizzie> Bike: ITYM multiplying by fo... rrrr.
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00:43:57 <fizzie> (TI-86 floats: 14 packed BCD digits in 7 bytes, followed by a 2-byte binary-encoded exponent of 10, and one full byte of flags; so it's the same size as the "native" x87 80-bit format.)
00:45:32 <Gracenotes> ever since becoming employed, I have been disappearing from the world of IRC
00:45:51 <Gracenotes> I will have to do IRC as a part-time job now
00:45:57 <kmc> i ain't payin'
00:46:14 <fizzie> The exponent is also unsigned 16-bit with a bias of 0xFC00, so it has a range of -64512..1023 -- except only -999..999 are valid.
00:46:17 <shachaf> kmc: adjunctions are p. nifty imo
00:46:22 <kmc> i've heard that
00:46:24 <shachaf> the only irc currency that counts
00:48:28 <Fiora> fizzie: is that the same as like, TI-83 and TI-89?
00:48:28 <fizzie> Bike: They're also really slow. (Even taking into account the fact that it's all in software; the ROM code to do math on them isn't very OPTOMIZED.)
00:48:48 <Bike> i thought the ibm 360 was OPTOMIZED to hell, man :(
00:48:56 <Bike> (for the time)
00:49:35 <olsner> it might have been state of the art 50 years ago
00:49:48 <fizzie> Fiora: I'd wager a guess that the -83 at least has same floats. I don't know about -89, since it has a whole 'nother CPU in it.
00:50:55 <fizzie> (TI-8x are Z80 systems for the most part, but the TI-89 has a 68k in it.)
00:52:57 <fizzie> The -89 is like they took the guts of the -92 but fit it in the -8x series form factor.
00:54:40 <fizzie> Also it's a crying shame they didn't stick an eZ80 in that new color TI-84 silver plus C super turbo street fighter edition.
00:56:38 <kmc> where is "super turbo street fighter edition" from?
00:56:44 <kmc> a long forgotten meme
00:56:46 <kmc> of some kind
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01:04:04 <fizzie> From the Street Fighter series of games; there was (among others) Street Fighter, Street Fighter II, Super Street Fighter II, and finally Super Street Fighter II Turbo.
01:04:44 <fizzie> (And apparently a Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix in 2008.)
01:04:54 <Bike> the Street Fighter II franchise
01:05:20 <madbr> they almost didn't rebooted it
01:05:42 <fizzie> (Also the Hyper Street Fighter II on the PS2 in 2003, apparently.)
01:05:50 <madbr> sf3 afaik was a disappointment in popularity so they gave up
01:05:51 <fizzie> They all have a subtitle after tha name, too.
01:06:58 <fizzie> (Street Fighter II: The World Warrior; Street Fighter II: Champion Edition; Street Fighter II: Hyper Fighting; Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers; Super Street Fighter II Turbo: Grand Master Challenge.)
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01:08:56 <fizzie> Anyhow, the ridiculosity of the evolution of * -> * II -> Super * II -> Super * II Turbo made it the butt of some good-natured ribbing, I'd say.
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01:09:54 <Bike> butts don't have ribs in them.........
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01:13:57 <fizzie> In re sizeof.c from before -- int n = sizeof(0)<:"abcdefghij":>; /* even sillier */
01:14:23 <Bike> what's that do
01:14:45 <Bike> i couldn't see the original thing :<
01:14:49 <fizzie> Except with <: and :> digraphs in place of [ and ], because, I mean, really, who has a character set with [] in it, that's so baroque?
01:15:02 <fizzie> It's surprisingly 1 instead of 'e'.
01:15:05 <Bike> Oh. I didn't know C had digraphs.
01:15:08 <olsner> hmm, is mozilla a non-profit?
01:16:49 <madbr> digraphs : still in C because there's some dude from IBM in the standards panel :(
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01:17:40 <fizzie> It has six digraphs (<: :> <% %> %: %:%: standing for [ ] { } # ##) and nine trigraphs (??= ??( ??/ ??) ??' ??< ??! ??> ??- standing for # [ \ ] ^ { | } ~) and of course the digraphs are treated in a whole another translation phase and manner.
01:18:17 <fizzie> The digraphs are not replaced inside string literals or anything, they're just tokens that are aliases for other tokens.
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01:29:55 <madbr> why are there so many text encodings
01:30:07 <Bike> because there are so many texts?
01:31:53 <madbr> notepad.exe still doesn't support LF only
01:32:16 <madbr> so anything from the unix world still looks like vomit in notepad :(
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01:33:19 <Fiora> notepad++ should work though!
01:33:31 <madbr> yeah except it sucks
01:34:08 <Fiora> is there something else I should be using...?
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01:35:27 <madbr> fiora : I wish I nkew
01:36:11 <zzo38> madbr: The version of the MS-DOS edit program used with Windows does support LF only, though.
01:36:59 <zzo38> But the file is save using CRLF.
01:37:11 <madbr> like, notepad++ isn't bad actually
01:37:17 <shachaf> zzo38: Any new levels in Potion of Confusing?
01:37:26 <zzo38> shachaf: No I haven't worked on that yet.
01:37:36 <madbr> but it doesn't have notepad's best feature (being lightweight and loading fast)
01:38:09 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, I agree.
01:38:10 <madbr> I've been working on a language for ultrazeux
01:38:20 <Bike> maybe you could do something like emacs server for notepad++.
01:38:26 <Fiora> geez it loads in like I don't think I could even measure it
01:38:35 <zzo38> madbr: I have also work on ideas for UltraZeux too a lot!
01:38:45 <Fiora> it appears like, literally the instant I click the icon
01:39:00 <Bike> half a planck time
01:39:21 <madbr> zzo38 : I have an interesting draft...
01:40:04 <zzo38> madbr: I have a lot of ideas for UltraZeux. One is that the world file can contain more than one character set, that they are two planes, that the character height can be set per world file, that the only built-ins are empty, player, and robots and that everything else is defined in a "format file" written in Forth (including most of the Robotic commands!), have true sprite support, ...
01:40:35 <zzo38> That there are different character sets used for different purpose; robots are fixed to one but primitives can use all four, for example.
01:41:28 <zzo38> The kind of an object is a byte, although for a robot, the kind and parameter are used together so that you do not have the limit of robots as much as in MegaZeux; the limit instead then depends on the number of primitives (each kind of primitive reduces the number of robots per board by 256)
01:41:35 <madbr> zzo38 : Here's some example code I've come up with
01:41:40 <zzo38> There would then be a default format file.
01:41:40 <madbr> zzo38 : http://pastebin.com/CayQX28L
01:42:03 <zzo38> Do you have a raw link? That would be better.
01:42:49 <madbr> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=CayQX28L
01:43:19 <zzo38> Those are better since it loads much faster and doesn't require to open the web browser at first.
01:44:14 <madbr> I'm aiming 2d "retro" games
01:44:36 <madbr> so I'm going for spitesets and tilesets instead of just character sets
01:44:47 <zzo38> I am too, kind of.
01:45:05 <madbr> I'm not quite decided on infinite layers yet tho
01:45:13 <zzo38> Still using many similarity to MegaZeux, although things like gems and so on are defined in the format file rather than being built-in.
01:45:42 <madbr> for gems and so on I'd use some version of "copyrobot"
01:45:57 <zzo38> That is my kind of UltraZeux and it is different than yours, but does have spritesets and tilesets
01:46:07 <zzo38> madbr: That works terribly.
01:46:09 <madbr> except it copies a robot from some extra hidden template board
01:46:24 <zzo38> Well, at least that is better than how it works in MegaZeux.
01:46:28 <madbr> and it's not a copyrobot as much as a robot that doesn't have its own code
01:46:51 <madbr> and so if you edit its code you're actually editing the code of all robots of that kind
01:47:24 <madbr> plus it would probably have "instance settings" which are just different startup settings for the local variables
01:47:55 <zzo38> I still don't like that much; I think the primitives (as well as a large number of other things) should be defined in a format file, written in Forth, and then they have a parameter. So, they don't take up as much memory as a robot or anything, and without all of the stuff like a robot has.
01:47:59 <madbr> so that you could parametrize the instances of that robot kindof like how you could set object parameters
01:48:36 <zzo38> So in other words it is simpler, but not suitable for some things. In addition, primitives would be synchronous while robots are asynchronous.
01:48:56 <madbr> I'd go for everything synchronous still
01:49:09 <zzo38> But I do also have the idea that you can have a set of programs separate from each individual robot; that still helps.
01:49:24 <madbr> multithreading is nice but for a GCS I don't think the extra speed is worth the extra complexity
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01:50:13 <zzo38> Most of the Robotic commands would be defined in the format file too, and there would be a standard format file and character sets included.
01:50:13 <madbr> you'd have some kind of execution-order "z" variable per robot
01:50:29 <madbr> on each frame it sorts the robots per z and executes them in that order
01:50:59 <madbr> I'd go for just C++ style functions instead of redefinable commands
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01:51:28 <madbr> and multiple "threads" per robot
01:51:38 <madbr> mainly to deal with animation and display
01:52:03 <zzo38> Well, that is another way, but I don't really like that way much. I happen to like the way that MegaZeux is working mostly, although some things could be changed; each robot would have only one thread, not multiple.
01:53:08 <madbr> like, in the example code I've pasted, you can see 2 threads (::main, ::invinco) and a function (:flip())
01:53:32 <madbr> the ::invinco thread deals only with invincibility after getting hit
01:53:49 <madbr> and implements blinking
01:54:13 <madbr> plus there would be an ::anim thread for doing animations
01:54:29 <zzo38> Each primitive would have associated some attributes and some events; some attributes are built-in while others can be user-defined (not al of MegaZeux's attributes are built-in). There are also some parameters of the kind such as dialog number (although these are defined in the format file), character and font number, color setting, and how to decide by the parameter and other things to change the character/color (if applicable).
01:54:37 <madbr> and a ::display thread that would normally have standard sprite display code, but you can override it
01:54:39 <zzo38> I had a bitfield designed which would do these things.
01:55:25 <madbr> how would you deal with pixel scrolling?
01:55:29 <zzo38> I happen to like the model used in MegaZeux (and ZZT) where a robot is basically just a script of commands with asynchronous events, and that these commands can be boxes of text opened up.
01:55:57 <madbr> megazeux is kindof synchronous
01:56:42 <madbr> multi-object simpultaneous synchronous :D
01:57:34 <zzo38> madbr: Pixel scrolling can still be a command; to move sprites by pixel by pixel, you can place sprites on the sprite layer in the editor or dynamically, and then those can be robots too, or primitive sprites (although they would need to be programmed differently than primitive tiles).
01:58:20 <zzo38> To scroll the screen by pixel it can be a built-in registers, which can be affected by writing into it by Forth and the format file can provide a command to Robotic which can do this or so on, or the format file can make it automatically scroll the window instead, or whatever
01:58:39 <madbr> your design is a kind of mzx 3 right? :D
01:58:49 <madbr> like, it extends megazeux?
01:59:24 <zzo38> madbr: Kind of, although many things are gotten rid of and completely rewritten, so things are defined in the format file instead of built-in, allowing many new things to be done.
01:59:51 <zzo38> It isn't compatible with any other MegaZeux, though, since it is an entirely new system, just with a few things from MegaZeux (and ZZT).
02:00:35 <madbr> also I'd use 32bit floats as default variable type :D
02:00:42 <kmc> there are a lot of text encodings because making a single text encoding that works for all text is incredibly hard, not to mention an organizational and political nightmare
02:00:47 <zzo38> I would use 32-bit integers instead.
02:01:52 <madbr> like, I'm focusing on sprite movement
02:01:57 <zzo38> So the screen model has three layers, the tile layer, sprite layer, and dialog layer. The board has different layers though; the under layer, normal layer, overlay layer, and sprite layer.
02:01:58 <madbr> and that benefits from floats
02:02:14 <madbr> since you can have a velocity of 0.2 pixels per frame
02:02:32 <zzo38> Well, there would still be floats, but integers are default at least in Forth.
02:02:51 <madbr> I'd probably just not even have integers
02:02:52 <Bike> .2 pixels isn't a very good quality to store in a float `-`
02:03:10 <madbr> bike : .2 pixels per frame
02:03:29 <madbr> so after 60 frames that becomes 12 pixels :D
02:03:33 <Bike> I meant, it can't even be represented in binary floating point.
02:03:45 <madbr> almost 12 pixels then :D
02:03:50 <Bike> So it would be more like 11.998198117.
02:03:54 <Bike> pretty good number of pixels
02:04:53 <zzo38> Many things are still built-in for speed and simplicity but can still be customized; for example, there is still the board window, status window, message window, etc although all of them can be customized in a large number of ways by the format file (and it can expose some of its parameters to the editor and/or Robotic programs).
02:05:01 <Bike> you could pick a "planck length" fraction of pixels and then store velocities/positions/whatever as multiples of that (as integers).
02:05:30 <Bike> this is a good plan because it involves "planck".
02:05:56 <madbr> that's what SNES games did
02:06:02 <madbr> just use fixed point everywhere
02:06:04 <Jafet> Or you can use fixed-point arithmetic to take advantage of fixed-point theorems
02:06:17 <madbr> I'm a fan of floating point though :D
02:06:26 <madbr> It's fast, it's useful, I love it :3
02:06:36 <zzo38> I am not trying to make the system for game with large number of collisionn sprites, and is mainly I am making the game which mainly uses tiles; for this and other reason, integers are default.
02:07:26 <zzo38> Also, world files would be compressed.
02:07:51 <madbr> I'm going with json data for world files
02:07:58 <madbr> with boards on different files
02:08:08 <Bike> representing numbers as polynomials: good idea y/y
02:08:14 <zzo38> I am going with binary.
02:08:25 <madbr> so that it merges on SVN and you can easily do a game in team :D
02:08:52 <zzo38> madbr: Your idea can work, but it is really not like Zeux/MegaZeux/UltraZeux at all so it shouldn't be called like that either
02:09:22 <madbr> It's kindof stealing the best ideas from megazeux but targetting SNES style tiled games yeah
02:09:42 <madbr> especially the platform/rpg/adventure/shmup quatuor
02:10:34 <zzo38> madbr: Then if you still want to call it Zeux, perhaps "SuperZeux" is better? Since, it is like SuperNES and MegaZeux.
02:11:11 <zzo38> Bike: In some cases. I have once written a set of functions for dealing with polynomials of a single variable in Visual Basic for Applications.
02:11:38 <madbr> the working title ATM is "CompoWinner" :D
02:11:44 <zzo38> But most recently these days I am doing things related to Z-machine.
02:11:56 <zzo38> madbr: Well, I suppose it is good enough for a codename.
02:12:17 <madbr> also targetting OpenGL output for gfx
02:13:46 <zzo38> I want to try to write a intermediate language representation for Z-machine, so that I can write a compiler. (I have already written two Z-machine interpreters and a Z-machine assembler.)
02:14:42 <madbr> and also I want to make the language compilable
02:14:58 <madbr> so no dynamic typing, no garbage collection...
02:15:52 <zzo38> madbr: What do you compile into? LLVM? SNES?
02:16:25 <madbr> I'd probably have to use integer for that kind of platform :D
02:16:45 <zzo38> Do you want to compile into LLVM, or into C, or C++, or what?
02:17:04 <madbr> but LLVM would definitively make sense
02:17:41 <madbr> ("output a C++, compile it and put it on the appstore!")
02:19:59 <madbr> still not sure how I'd deal with slopes either
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02:37:09 <Bike_> this reminds me of zzo, somehow http://sprunge.us/EdJi
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02:41:04 <madbr> solitaire speedrun
02:42:31 <Bike> only for the hardest of the core
02:52:24 <nooodl> oh geez i missed exciting megazeux conversation
02:53:53 <nooodl> imo if you're going to make "something like megazeux" don't make the same mistake megazeux made and invent your own dumb language
02:53:57 <nooodl> just use lua or whatever jeez
02:54:51 <madbr> tho I'm not sure anything is really adapted
02:55:46 <madbr> definitively not sold on dynamic typing
02:56:36 <madbr> also the lua coroutine system would have to be wrapped
02:56:45 <madbr> and 1 based arrays rub me the wrong way
02:56:56 <nooodl> http://www.digitalmzx.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=13647 pretty excellent
02:58:00 <nooodl> i don't know why people complain about 1 based arrays :(
02:59:11 <madbr> it breaks 2d addressing
03:00:21 <nooodl> you can easily just use 0-indexed tables for that
03:00:47 <madbr> but that breaks the "number of things in this array" operator no?
03:01:16 <nooodl> it does, but would that even make sense when 2d addressing stuff
03:03:01 <nooodl> you could have #t be the height and #t[1] be the width of your 2d thing (if it were 1-indexed) but it's pretty hackish
03:23:30 <Bike> http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ#flaws-in-mainstream-science-and-psychology anyone ever get the feeling we're doomed
03:24:08 <shachaf> #haskell is the worst channel
03:27:46 <kmc> Bike: only every day
03:29:16 <kmc> nooodl, madbr: no use scheme
03:29:58 <Gracenotes> science still progresses. the rate at which it progresses is a sociological problem.
03:30:14 <Bike> what about all these other problems
03:33:22 <Gracenotes> people have vested interests and this introduces cognitive biases, and it turns out that hard problems are hard
03:35:03 <Gracenotes> bad research being done and published is a problem that may slow down some areas of a research to a crawl, but it's not dead yet, so to speak.
03:39:01 <Gracenotes> I don't think policy-makers with economic investment have any interest in the rate of actual progress.
03:39:15 <Gracenotes> So, yeah, sociological problem. Why not.
03:39:52 <Bike> well, i mean, «Young’s 2008 Everything is Dangerous remarks that 80-90% of epidemiology’s claims do not replicate (eg. the NIH ran 20 randomized-controlled-trials of claims, and only 1 replicated)»
03:41:05 <madbr> kmc : what sort of features does schemes that are useful for video games?
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03:41:20 <madbr> *kmc : what sort of features does scheme have that are useful for video games?
03:43:21 <Gracenotes> Bike: so science is running >20x slower than it could be
03:43:40 <kmc> probably none
03:43:48 <kmc> other than just being a good language
03:43:51 <Bike> that is a way to characterize it but i'm not sure how good a characterization it is
03:44:18 <Gracenotes> It reminds me of software engineering. Rush to the finish line and you'll end up rewriting everything a few times.
03:44:51 <Gracenotes> Plan it out carefully and intentionally from the beginning, make progress faster in the long term.
03:55:06 <madbr> science is hard kids
03:57:31 <Bike> basically like, if bad reproducability due to the way journals work, and stuff like that, is "sociological", you might as well call a linux bug "sociological" because with a better society it wouldn't have arisen?
04:02:16 <Sgeo> https://keen.io/blog/46856249197/keen-io-releases-api-for-dev-null
04:03:05 * Sgeo wonders if it actually writes to /dev/null or if it just ignores it
04:03:34 <Bike> co-author of The Stringularity
04:03:46 <Gracenotes> It is a bit tautological to say that problems are sociological problems. They involve humans.
04:04:15 <Gracenotes> Nonetheless, some people don't think of science, math, etc. as fundamentally sociological processes.
04:04:21 <Bike> Sgeo: https://api.keen.io/dev/null
04:05:04 <Bike> well, they are, but again so is software development, which doesn't stop people from quite reasonably describing problems in specific non-sociological ways usefully.
04:06:34 <Bike> like, people putting system("PAUSE") in their scripts is a sociological problem in that the society hasn't informed them that they shouldn't, but it's also a problem in that like... you shouldn't do that.
04:06:38 <Bike> Same for dumb p<.05?
04:06:48 <madbr> "state doesn’t scale" hahahahahaha
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04:13:52 <kmc> why shouldn't i do that
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04:14:10 <Bike> i dunno, people complain about it.
04:14:52 <Bike> insert your own actual problem if you want
04:15:20 <kmc> PHP is a sociological problem
04:18:28 <Bike> PHP is making web development run >20x slower than it could be
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04:32:33 <kmc> dunno about that
04:33:24 <kmc> i think development in PHP is pretty rapid
04:34:46 <kmc> until you crash & explode
04:36:17 <kallisti> I guess haskell in comparison would be something like continental drift.
04:41:20 <Bike> continental motion is very respectable.
04:45:29 <Bike> not like those nasty fast car things.
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04:57:18 <Gracenotes> software engineering is communication between software engineers
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05:08:45 <shachaf> maybe i should add my /bin/ls quote to the faq!!
05:09:32 <zzo38> Is true that PHP isn't very good. There are other programming languages such as C. I might rewrite some of these program in C, at some time, to make them faster.
05:09:50 <Bike> really market that shachaf brand.
05:13:35 <zzo38> Some people have added Lua into MegaZeux, but really it isn't necessary, and the built-in Robotic is more than enough, and works better for some of the kind of things anyways.
05:14:35 <zzo38> That is, such as switching between states and displaying menus of options, mainly.
05:17:19 <zzo38> General-purpose programming language don't really work well for that. I have added support for Forth, although that is in a separate file and runs differently; it is executed according to events it defines, and in the editor, etc. You would still use Robotic codes too, despite this.
05:32:17 <zzo38> shachaf: What is your /bin/ls quote?
05:32:35 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 26) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced. \ 28) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quot
05:32:48 <lambdabot> shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files
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06:10:20 <Sgeo> I am using 8.9GB of memory right now
06:10:38 <Sgeo> So whoever thinks that 8GB ought to be enough for anyone was clearly mistaken
06:15:35 <zzo38> O no I played this game and now my (character's) head is broken
06:17:40 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/hAK5IsX.gif here is what concrete does when you put a lot of weight on it.
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07:50:51 <fizzie> Sgeo: Is that figure without the file caches and stuff?
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09:17:30 <fizzie> Szczecin? Oh, Poland, you and your city names...
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09:31:40 <shachaf> ion: What are some good Haskell exercises?
09:31:55 <ion> shachaf: FixMuNu? :-P
09:32:22 <ion> Curry-Howard
09:32:28 <shachaf> And the whole Yoneda business is good -- I think I gave you those exercises too once?
09:32:30 <ion> I’m just listing things i have done (and found interesting)
09:32:39 <ion> There was talk about it but i never got started with that.
09:32:39 <shachaf> Hmm, Bazaar is good, I suppose. FunList etc.
09:34:44 <shachaf> Maybe there's a good set of exercises for Codensity etc.
09:34:51 <shachaf> But I don't think ezyang's version really works that well.
09:34:55 <ion> I picked misc. logical expressions, some valid and some invalid, converted them to Haskell types and wrote “proofs” for them as Haskell expressions or convinced myself one can’t be written.
09:35:38 <shachaf> Hmm, and LEM<->callCC/etc. is probably a good one.
09:38:05 <ion> Sounds interesting. Are you going to post these exercies somewhere? I’d like to take a look.
09:38:57 <ion> Well, everything i haven’t done yet. Yoneda, Codensity, LEM/callCC
09:39:20 <shachaf> Hmm, didn't you do the Yoneda thing?
09:39:43 <ion> An interactive tutorial with lecture segments an editor/interpreter/checker for exercises would be cool.
09:41:02 <shachaf> Oh, that "and" is correcting the previous line.
09:41:25 <shachaf> ion: Pretend you had: callCC :: ((a -> b) -> a) -> a (figure out why that type makes sense for callCC, I guess). Write: lem :: Either (Not a) a
09:42:29 <ion> I remember doing some figuring-out-Yoneda, but i should do more. I don’t remember much more than that one of Yoneda/CoYoneda was like a partially applied fmap.
09:55:16 <shachaf> kmc: <#haskell> My problem with Python et al is that I know enough to understand that its not "real" programming and that is causing me to baulk.
09:55:28 <shachaf> Admittedly this isn't a regular, just a, uh, someone.
10:11:07 <Jafet> Let me tell you a story about a real programmer
10:11:37 <olsner> shachaf: you should start a shit#haskellsays twitter/tumblr/thing
10:12:34 <Jafet> I think there's an irc channel for that
10:18:14 <ion> shit#shit#haskellsayssays
10:22:03 <shachaf> I never melatonin I didn't like.
10:23:57 <ion> shachaf: Can you please try to follow my finger with your eye? http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3051#comic
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14:34:47 <HackEgo> 996) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
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14:35:58 <olsner> I think that's some kind of warning about the effects of metar
14:36:44 <fizzie> A friend's flying to ZBAA about now, was just curious.
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14:58:00 <olsner> looks like it's "201430Z 17003MPS 140V200 5000 BR NSC 27/23 Q1004 NOSIG" btw
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15:32:27 <ion> Prolog [SFM] http://youtu.be/w1j0KEsF6JU
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15:38:41 <Sgeo> ion, lies! That's not Prolog at all!
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15:40:09 <Sgeo> That's it, I'm switching to Quassel
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16:26:29 <zzo38> Do you know what "a plate of viinerrine" is?
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16:48:51 <olsner> zzo38: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Viinerine ?
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16:52:43 <zzo38> In this game I was playing I found it in Pluto, though, together with some other foods I don't understand, although some are ordinary foods such as coffee, orange juice, and bundle of fruits and vegetables.
16:53:56 <zzo38> Maybe they get the foods from various other places?
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16:58:16 <zzo38> I would think other places are really far away, though.
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17:23:55 <kmc> shachaf: http://www.burritophile.com/directory.php?state=CA&city=San+Francisco&sort=high
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19:04:17 <Taneb> Well, my Scandinavia and the Worl's Finland cosplay is ALMOST COMPLETE
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19:15:30 <Taneb> Because I have not attached the blue ribbon to my white shirt
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19:45:11 <AnotherTest> zzo38: I think you're the right person to ask: What gopherd do you use?
19:45:58 <zzo38> AnotherTest: One I wrote by myself. It is a prefix-based gopher server.
19:47:35 <AnotherTest> I've only found pygopherd and bucktooth so far, so I'm interested in other options
19:48:12 <zzo38> It is written in BASIC, so it isn't very good. I have once written one in C too, although I don't have it at this time.
19:51:05 <zzo38> I happen to prefer prefix-based.
19:51:41 <shachaf> remember Fable (1996 video game)
19:52:02 <olsner> what does it mean for a gopher server to be prefix-based?
19:52:29 <zzo38> olsner: The configuration is made by the list of prefixes of the selector strings, to select the files.
20:03:47 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/GOpW5zo.png
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20:11:25 <oerjan> wtf tmux was already running for hours...
20:12:17 <oerjan> i started it with tmux new pine hours ago but my guess is it _still_ started a session with all my usual stuff...
20:13:00 <fizzie> ion: One hopes that game has a Free license.
20:13:10 <oerjan> and sessions don't tell about each other's existence :(
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20:40:27 <shachaf> kmc: at 32 oz. each, that's almost 1.3 pecks!!
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20:42:11 <Taneb> Why am I always really sleepy on the one day a week I don't need to worry about having an early morning tomorrow?
20:42:31 <shachaf> Taneb: every morning is early hth
20:42:55 <Taneb> shachaf, Sunday mornings happen three hours later than other mornings
20:43:25 <HackEgo> bin/r13 \ bin/rot13 \ bin/welcome13
20:43:52 <HackEgo> echo "$@" | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
20:43:54 <elliott> because you didn't like how rot13 did what you want here
20:44:12 <HackEgo> Ovxr: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
20:44:16 <Bike> imo, fantastic.
20:45:00 <HackEgo> Vaneb: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
20:45:17 <HackEgo> Taneb: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
20:45:32 <shachaf> @@ @let rot13 = @where rot13
20:45:42 <shachaf> > (rot13 &&& reverse) "gnat"
20:45:56 <Taneb> Taneb is a rot13 anagram for organ
20:45:57 <shachaf> > (rot13 &&& reverse) "ravine" -- best word
20:49:55 <ion> "2 lambdabots 1 shachaf"
21:00:50 <Taneb> Two Bikes one Bike
21:00:55 <Taneb> Also known as Three Bikes
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22:50:27 <zzo38> Does it not work because of the comment?
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23:19:59 <SirCmpwn> completely off topic and spammy:
23:20:06 <SirCmpwn> I need as many souls as I can get to help with a load test in #gifquick
23:20:11 <SirCmpwn> I'd be very grateful if you helped out
23:20:21 <Bike> i don't have any of those
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23:34:57 <oerjan> sorry, i have just one, and it's out of order
23:37:22 <shachaf> souls are a measure of the value of real estate, right?
23:37:46 <kmc> only in san francsico (the joke is that housing in san francisco is very expensive)
23:39:43 <shachaf> kmc: oh no did you sell your soul
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00:53:55 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Souls hth
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01:14:41 <Jafet> http://www.kboing.com.br/fotos/imagens/49945052a453d.jpg
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01:29:00 <shachaf> The other day I heard a radio commercial about people who "disguise learning as fun".
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02:02:01 <Jafet> They should have disguised that message better.
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03:01:54 <zzo38> Why do VCRs newer than some certain date cannot record in LP speed?
03:02:42 <Bike> what the hell is a vcr
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03:04:11 <zzo38> I have a VHS/DVD combination, which can record all speeds on DVD but on VHS it won't record LP (but it does support the non-standard VP speed).
03:07:59 <shachaf> zzo38: Why would you use VHS?
03:09:07 <zzo38> shachaf: Some movies we have are on VHS. Also, I use it when I want to record a TV show that I don't need to keep. (If I want to keep the recording, DVD can be used instead.)
03:12:14 <Lumpio-> That's the thing normal people use for recording TV shows these days.
03:13:58 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: You're asking a guy who runs a gopher daemon.
03:14:00 <Lumpio-> It's harder and slower to use and has worse image quality.
03:14:09 <Lumpio-> pikhq_: Yes but he usually has some sort of reasoning for things
03:15:14 <zzo38> The image quality is good enough, although mainly this is we already have VCR/DVD so it can be used. If the recording needs to be permanent, then I will use DVD instead.
03:15:33 <Lumpio-> You just ignored the two other things!
03:16:23 <zzo38> No, it is fast enough, and it isn't harder. Especially this VCR has jet rewind, so it is faster than the other VCR anyways.
03:16:58 <pikhq_> Shame you can't get D-VHS equipment reasonably.
03:19:21 <pikhq_> Though i suppose with Bluray it's irrelevant now.
03:20:49 <zzo38> Well, what I have is good enough. Still, I don't know why they stopped making VCRs that record in LP speed (although for most shows SP is good enough, and we rarely need to record more than one show on a tape at once; it can just be recorded over). It can help though to have LP in case you want to record several TV shows while you are gone and don't want to reduce the quality too much to EP (unless there are enough shows that EP would be better any
03:21:08 <pikhq_> Though amusingly it'd not be if HD-DVD had won.
03:21:23 <pikhq_> (D-VHS had a higher bitrate than HD-DVD? Seriously?)
03:26:13 <zzo38> I didn't know that.
03:28:39 <pikhq_> Yeah. D-VHS had an absurdly high 30Mbps rate.
03:31:14 <zzo38> How can you add index marks to existing recordings in VHS tapes?
03:31:33 <kmc> pikhq_: what codec?
03:31:42 <pikhq_> kmc: MPEG-2, unfortunately.
03:32:00 <pikhq_> So HD-DVD *could* look better than it. Though it could *not*.
03:32:29 <pikhq_> At least MPEG-2 is halfway tolerable at that rate?
03:32:57 <pikhq_> (note, for 1080i and 1080p24 content. Obviously it's overkill at 480i)
03:33:05 <zzo38> Do you like "Worse-Is-Better" software design?
03:33:12 <kmc> i like worse is worse
03:33:26 <pikhq_> Personally, I just believe less is less.
03:33:40 <shachaf> worse isn't better. worse is better than better
03:33:57 <kmc> i believe that features I need are "pragmatic" while features you need are "bloat"
03:34:09 <pikhq_> I believe my stomach is bloated.
03:34:10 <shachaf> perhaps worse is better up to isomorphism
03:34:36 <zzo38> kmc: What software design is that?
03:35:00 <pikhq_> Biggest software is best software?
03:35:12 <kmc> the software that can be good is not the true software
03:37:42 <shachaf> kmc: oh, did you read that book
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03:39:06 <kmc> the one you lent me? no I didn't start yet :(
03:42:50 <Bike> sure, you SAY you want a nervou system, but that's just bloat. My sponges have differing behavior without a nervous system, without bloat
03:48:05 <shachaf> it talks about the tao etc.
03:49:40 <shachaf> kmc: do you need drugz to learn higher category theory
03:50:10 <kmc> i don't know any higher category theory
03:50:14 <kmc> so I cannot speak of this
03:50:55 <Bike> i hear amphetamines help w/ math
03:51:11 <shachaf> Bike: only mathamphetamines do that hth
03:51:12 <kmc> i think erdős was p. upset that people drew this conclusion
03:51:49 <shachaf> anyway it was just a drugz joke
03:51:55 <kmc> is the joke 'higher'
03:52:07 <shachaf> like left adjoint and forgetful functor
03:52:10 <Bike> we need some more in-depth drugz jokes, i feel
03:52:17 <shachaf> i have a ""limited vocabulary"" that intersects drugz and categories
03:52:21 <Bike> they're getting samey, in that they are all the same
03:52:22 <shachaf> given that i don't know much about either one
03:52:33 <kmc> i got a vaporizer today http://www.ploom.com/pax
03:53:47 <kmc> black anodized aluminum shell, "Designed in San Francisco" etched on the back, clearly trying to be Apple
03:53:52 <Bike> i honestly have no idea why someone would need this
03:53:55 <kmc> also it has easter eggs: http://vaporpedia.com/wiki/Pax#Party_Mode
03:53:57 <Bike> i'm great at drugz
03:54:18 <shachaf> kmc: you should help me come up with more categoriez/drugz jokez
03:54:24 <kmc> it vaporizes the active ingredients from tobaccy (or wacky tobaccy) w/o burning the plant material
03:54:24 <Bike> wow you can use it in your car
03:55:00 <kmc> so it's a lot healthier and produces basically no smell, definitely not the awful lingering smoke smell
03:55:09 <Bike> oh good i hate that smell
03:55:31 <shachaf> you can use it in your car / you can use it in a bar / you can smoke it in your house / you can smoke it with your spouse
03:55:37 <shachaf> hmm maybe it's not actually smoking
03:55:57 <kmc> apparently one of the big vape user forums is http://fuckcombustion.com/
03:56:23 <shachaf> To activate: Hold it horizontally in front of you and roll it towards you like 3 times.
03:56:30 <shachaf> i thought this was a wikipedia page at first
03:58:08 <Bike> i like combustion :(
03:58:12 <Bike> i mean, not with drugz. just in general.
03:58:58 <Fiora> I like my "vaporator". it dispenses albuterol sulfate <.<
03:59:20 <Bike> that sounds pretty hardcore
03:59:25 <shachaf> is an electronic version called an "evaporator"
04:02:49 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, can I review Pointless now?
04:03:20 <kmc> yes you can be the first!!
04:03:28 <kmc> https://plus.google.com/115755278795768575583/about
04:04:19 <Bike> it's a realtor called pointless topology?
04:04:23 <shachaf> why is it a "Vacation Home Rental Agency"
04:04:30 <kmc> fucked if i know
04:04:49 <kmc> Bike: it's my house, which decided to register itself as a business for some reason
04:04:58 <Bike> do you get a paycheck
04:05:07 <shachaf> kmc: should i suggest to change it to something
04:05:09 <elliott> can I buy shares in kmc's house
04:05:11 <shachaf> maybe "Housing Cooperative"
04:05:17 <kmc> http://pointlesstopology.com/ look how legit we are
04:05:19 <shachaf> there's no "Housing Coöperative" suggestion
04:05:38 <kmc> the use of twitter bootstrap alone should be worth a $2M seed round
04:05:46 <shachaf> Oops, it wants me to sign in.
04:06:18 <shachaf> hmm, maybe a housing coöperative is something else
04:06:45 <shachaf> actually maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_cooperative is ok
04:07:00 <kmc> i've known of other places that are also "n friends living in a house" but actually incorporated and have house bank accounts and a credit card
04:07:14 <kmc> we just buy things individually and then get reimbursed through an accounting system based on a perl script and a makefile
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04:08:19 <shachaf> kmc: I submitted a request to change it to "Housing Coöperative"
04:08:32 <shachaf> Google kept trying to take my ¨ away but I think I managed to submit it.
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04:11:33 <shachaf> maybe i should suggest Working Hours too!!
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04:19:57 <zzo38> How do you make ephemeris program including rotation of Pluto and the other planets of the solar system? Swiss Ephemeris has only the rotation of the Earth, but I want to have the rotation of the other planets too (and of Pluto, which is now properly considered a dwarf planet, but it is still an object in the solar system regardless of what it is called), and possibly even the objects beyond Pluto.
04:20:22 <Bike> what about asteroids
04:21:40 <zzo38> I don't need those for what I am doing, but it would be good for such ephemeris to have asteroids too, so that it can be used for other purposes too.
04:22:04 <Bike> hey, i have a paper on what THC does to your head. neat
04:23:06 <Bike> "There is not a single, elementary manifestation of mental illness that cannot be found in the mental changes caused by hashish..."
04:29:47 <zzo38> I did remove the extra comma by now.
04:30:21 <zzo38> I think I have read somewhere that someone once removed an extra comma to avoid someone being thrown in prison, or something like that.
04:36:04 <Bike> i like how there's an entire class of important endogenuous chemical signals that are called "endocannabinoids" because THC and CBD happen to resemble them enough that a plant can get people high
04:37:08 <shachaf> kmc: Are you going to make udis86 bindings?
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04:41:46 <shachaf> JavaScriptCore uses a conservative GC right now too?
04:41:56 * shachaf is surprised so many things do.
04:42:29 <Bike> i wonder what a liberal GC would be like. data just disappearing everywhere
04:43:14 <shachaf> Er, not JavaScriptCore. I mean SpiderMonkey.
04:54:26 <kmc> communist GC
04:55:26 <Fiora> every object gets the same amount of memory
04:55:40 <Fiora> if it uses more memory than is allocated to it, it gets "garbage collected"
04:56:18 <shachaf> from each object according to its ability, etc.
04:58:17 <Bike> hey kmc do you have any personal reports on the effects of thc on memory
04:59:05 <shachaf> he used to, but then he was left adjoint by a forgetful functor
04:59:12 <shachaf> (you can't blame him -- it was free)
05:13:13 <kmc> what shachaf said
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05:27:33 <ChrisW> Must a machine be able to output any bit string in order to be Turing Complete, or will some subset suffice? I'm considering de Bruijn encoding of closed lambda expressions, where not all bit strings will be able to be generated.
05:28:32 <Bike> i don't see why you'd need all of them. you could have a machine that outputs a bunch of zeroes and then the usual, say
05:29:28 <ChrisW> You mean to say that as long as their is some kind of mapping between the subset of bit strings that can be output and all the possible bit strings, it can be Turing Complete?
05:29:38 <Bike> yeah, i think so.
05:30:04 <Bike> well, i don't know. naturals map to computable bitstrings i suppose, so that's useless
05:30:31 <ChrisW> Are there any restrictions on what that mapping is? I feel like you could cheat by making the mapping function itself Turing Complete
05:30:48 <kmc> the mapping should be computable
05:31:04 <Bike> i'm not sure about "output" either honestly, i mean classic UTMs just have a final tape state
05:31:33 <elliott> the only output you really need is "halt" or "not halt"
05:32:38 <ChrisW> Regarding de Bruijn encodings of lambda expressions, it is possible to count the encodings in sorted order, and construct a table which maps the encodings to their index, where the index is a natural number or bit string
05:33:37 <Bike> just do the usual i guess, have a machine that takes a description of a BCT program or whatever and returns a church encoding of a result, and call it good
05:33:48 <ChrisW> elliott, is that true? I haven't heard that before.
05:34:32 <ChrisW> Bike, I'm not sure I follow that. I know what church numerals are though
05:34:54 <Bike> ChrisW: i mean, the usual "it can do this turing machine thing, so it's turing complete".
05:35:01 <Bike> bct = bitwise cyclic tag, but you could use anything
05:35:23 <Bike> as for halt/not halt, basically you just need to be able to have partially computable functions, which, well, either halt or don't
05:36:59 <Bike> plenty of formalisms don't hve, like, "output", such as lambda calculus which just term rewrites, and that rewriting either has a normal form or doesn't
05:37:14 <ChrisW> Simulate BCT in order to prove Turing Completeness? I'm pretty sure Jot is Turing Complete, but I'm just wondering how to translate the resulting lambda expression into any possible bit string
05:37:38 <ChrisW> Yes, lambda calculus is exactly what I'm using
05:37:42 <Bike> why bother doing that
05:37:58 <ChrisW> The input is a bit string, and I would like the output to be a bit string as well
05:38:01 <Bike> lambda calculus doesn't "output" and has no bit strings at all and there's no doubt bout it being turing complete, see
05:38:47 <ChrisW> Couldn't you convert the resulting expression into a bit string using de Bruijn encoding to produce "output"?
05:38:50 <Bike> if you want to be able to output any bit string you could just define the map from encoded lambda expressions to naturals, nothing wrong with that
05:39:02 <Bike> yeah, but what's the point of calling that "output"
05:39:12 <Bike> you could also say it "outputs" the unencoded text
05:39:41 <ChrisW> Ok, thanks. By unencoded text you mean the lambda expression?
05:40:11 <ChrisW> I simply find it nice and symmetric to output the same form of data as the input, that is binary
05:40:26 <Bike> suit yourself. i'd just do the coding then.
05:40:42 <Bike> mapping to the naturals allows any bitstring, obviously
05:41:00 <ChrisW> Are you familiar with Jot? Every possible bit string is a valid program.
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05:41:14 <ChrisW> Yeah, that's probably the only way to do it
05:41:44 <Bike> not familiar with jot, sorry
05:42:46 <Bike> but since partial computable functions are enumerable you could define any formalism like that by having an encode natural to program step first
05:44:11 <Bike> there's certainly no notion of "bitstrings" in the old style math; i mean, turing machines can have N states, not just 2, obviously
05:44:30 <Bike> binary just happens to work "pretty well" with electromechanics
05:44:52 <ChrisW> Ah, basically it converts all "1"s into the terms "S K" and all "0"s into precedence operators for application. For example, "101" translates to "S K (S K)". Interestingly, the S and K combinators individually can be constructed using the bit strings "11111000" and "11100" respectively, which essentially proves Turing Completeness right there.
05:45:10 <ChrisW> What exactly is a partial computable function?
05:46:02 <Bike> sounds like you could use some basic computability class, lemme see if i can find something nice
05:46:53 <Bike> basically, a partial computable function is something a turing machine can do; or something µ-recursive; or a lambda expression; or any number of things like that
05:47:20 <Bike> intuitively you can think of it s something an idealized computer can do, i guess, you already have some idea of that
05:47:35 <Bike> and that includes not halting, which is what the "partial" is for; a total computable function "always halts"
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05:49:42 <Bike> unfortunately i mostly learned computability from wikipedia and dicking around, but "Kolmogorov Complexity and Applications" had a pretty nice review; i could dig through it's bibliography for something dedicated if you want
05:50:01 <Bike> you probably don't need much if you already understand how SK works and all.
05:50:12 <Bike> and de bruijn encoding and all these other things. sorry if i'm bugging you, on that note
05:52:10 <ChrisW> I'm not sure if I'm equipped to understand most of that. And really all I want to do is write some nifty Jot programs like a Fibonacci generator perhaps. I wrote an interpreter for Jot in Python, and I have been working on some code which converts Python's internal lambda structures into strings like (\ab.a (b a))
05:53:15 <Bike> hopefully "all of that" is equipment for helping you understand :)
05:55:33 <ChrisW> heh, I say that because I only started learning about lambda calculus a week ago, and scraping the Internet for this stuff isn't as easy as I thought it would be
05:56:07 <kmc> do you want some recommendations for computability / complexity theory books
05:57:10 <ChrisW> I'm not sure how deep into this stuff I really want to get. It's just a hobby of mine once in a while
05:59:48 <Bike> well, it can be nice to know where to look if you get interested later
06:00:14 <ChrisW> that's true, what do you recommend?
06:01:56 <kmc> _Introduction to the Theory of Computation_ by Sipser and then _Computational Complexity_ by Papadimitriou
06:02:02 <kmc> i really enjoyed both books
06:02:18 <Fiora> Scott Aaronsons blog has some interesting posts
06:02:25 <Fiora> there's also the complexity zoo wiki and stuff?
06:02:27 <kmc> they're both nicely self-contained but the latter covers a lot more stuff and is generally more challenging so I suggest both in order
06:03:18 <kmc> does Complexity Zoo have content beyond a listing of complexity classes?
06:03:42 <Fiora> I'm not sure? I use it as a reference mainly
06:03:47 <Fiora> like when something I read says like
06:03:56 <Fiora> and I'm like oh gosh what the heck is that
06:04:15 <kmc> it's complementary to the textbooks in that way
06:05:36 <kmc> shachaf: should I read the HoTT book
06:05:47 <kmc> or should I read the Smullyan book first
06:06:10 <Bike> complexity zoo hs cite doesn't it
06:10:02 <Bike> i guess papers aren't really that friendly, though.
06:12:04 <kmc> both of those textbooks are really good as far as presenting the field in a logical order from 'first principles' and explaining how things work and such
06:12:27 <kmc> i think just reading complexity zoo and research papers would be... challenging
06:14:28 <kmc> Erie Gauge War would be a good name for a band
06:15:20 <Bike> are your last two messages related
06:15:35 <Bike> and yeah i don't een understand most of complexity zoo >_>
06:16:08 <kmc> isn't most of complexity zoo like ultra special purpose stuff from someone's PhD thesis that five people in the world understand
06:16:28 <Bike> i have an addiction to such stuff. it's a problem
06:16:45 <kmc> remember when you could get a PhD just for inventing an esolang and then proving it turing complete
06:17:25 <Bike> now you have to invent a recursively enumerable family of esolangs and prove them monotonically increasing from presburger arithmetic to turing complete in the limit
06:17:28 <Bike> imo kids these days
06:18:31 <kmc> http://coq.inria.fr/V8.1/faq.html#htoc4
06:19:12 <Bike> huh, presburger evaluators have to have a worst case runtime that's doubly exponential. v. prctical
06:19:46 <Bike> "On the other hand, a triply exponential upper bound on a decision procedure for Presburger Arithmetic was proved by Oppen (1978)."
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06:55:03 <zzo38> I like the old rule of mana burn in Magic: the Gathering cards. Such as, make up a card like: {T}: Add {WUBRG} to your mana pool. This mana is unusable.
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07:02:12 <shachaf> kmc: i haven't read the HoTT book :'(
07:05:29 <shachaf> how about read both concurrently
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07:33:52 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt-sander_racing
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07:34:28 <fizzie> "-- the growing field of power tool drag racing --"
07:34:31 <mnoqy> the growing field of power tool drag racing--yes
07:35:20 <shachaf> how come you're never here anymore
07:35:41 <mnoqy> is this the part where i sleep in the daytime or the part where i just don't say things
07:36:19 <mnoqy> recently, to avoid the heat
07:36:24 <mnoqy> it's much nicer to be awake at night
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13:28:18 <nerflils> Decided to write a little hacking/programming puzzle: Step 1: http://pastebin.com/TyV4Eqpa
13:28:40 <nerflils> decode that moves onto step 2, then step 3, 4 etc. etc.
13:28:50 <oerjan> hi person who cannot keep to one nick
13:30:50 <oerjan> i don't mind your puzzles though, although they're not my kind.
13:31:19 <nerflils> oerjan: This si more lateral thinking :)
13:33:43 <nerflils> oerjan: Get's more challenging :)
13:33:44 <oerjan> hm reminds me of the time i made a christmas crossword for the local gamer's club member magazine. i don't think anyone managed to solve that either. or maybe they just didn't say. and maybe i should have posted the solution in a later number, hm...
13:35:02 <oerjan> let's just say not everyone is good at estimating difficulty of things you make yourself.
13:35:27 <nerflils> What do you think of the challenge though?
13:35:53 <oerjan> i said it's not my kind. encryption seems too random for me.
13:36:06 <nerflils> oerjan: How is base64 random? :P
13:36:31 <oerjan> ok i guess i can see that it's base64
13:37:03 <nerflils> step 3: http://i.imgur.com/FX3fAd7.png
13:37:33 <oerjan> hey no spoilers now you've just convinced me to try a bit :P
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14:39:01 <nooodl> nerflils: mmm i'm solving it
14:39:13 <nerflils> it anagrams to "I am Lord Voldemort"
14:39:28 <nooodl> jeez stop spoiling your own damn riddle
14:39:35 <nooodl> i decoded the base64 now i'm trying to figure out what it means
14:40:30 <nooodl> what kind of solution am i supposed to be looking for here btw
14:41:51 <nerflils> like what comes after the pastebin.com/
14:42:21 <nooodl> oooh i was looking at the solution then, trying to figure out what it meant
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14:58:13 <Taneb> This time, I am going to practise before entering a SSBB contest
14:58:27 <nooodl> i think i found out how to apply the "tom marvolo riddle" clue to the base64 but it's not working so i probably need to use the integral thing somehow
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15:05:44 <Taneb> 9/0 and I'll handicap myself
15:05:50 <nerflils> nooodl: So you think you have figured it out? ;)
15:06:29 <nooodl> maybe. no idea what to do with the value i got from the integral
15:07:38 <nooodl> for the other two lines -- the second line refers to DEFLATE doesn't it?
15:08:07 <nooodl> so i tried to zlib.decompress the string i get when decoding the third line but it's not working :<
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15:43:33 <nooodl> the first clue is much too vague. i assume it's the tripledes key, but
15:43:46 <nooodl> -0.212611? 0.212611? 212611?
15:44:15 <nooodl> also how was i even supposed to know about it being triple DES?
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16:34:43 <Bike> say foo x:xs = foo xs, foo [] = "who cares"; is foo [1..] guaranteed to be bottom?
16:35:32 <comex> what else would it be?
16:36:09 <Bike> "who cares", due to a liberal optimizer
16:37:12 <pikhq_> That... cannot possibly be correct
16:38:18 <Bike> well, i can't think of why you'd want bottom, so i'm wondering.
16:38:35 <pikhq_> Infinite loops are one form of bottom.
16:38:45 <nerflils> Anyone able to solve the puzzle? :P
16:39:22 <Bike> yeah, but there's no side effects so why would you want that, is what i'm wonderin
16:39:45 <pikhq_> As specified it does not terminate.
16:39:52 <pikhq_> Therefore it shouldn't.
16:42:32 <Bike> hm... maybe you could want that as a sentinel so that a later summing doesn't eat memory with bignums, or something weird but conceivable like that
16:43:07 <oerjan> as specified it's a syntax error hth
16:43:29 <oerjan> (needs parentheses around x:xs)
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16:43:54 <Deewiant> I guess the question here is: what breaks if you assume that all lists are finite, other than some bottoms becoming something else
16:45:11 <Bike> the question i have is actually just to what extent if any are bottoms allowed to become something else.
16:46:08 <oerjan> Bike: foo x `seq` whatever would be a reasonable way to force spine strictness of a list, which can be useful.
16:46:39 <Bike> yeah that's what i meant (assuming spine strictness means finity)
16:47:16 <oerjan> it means that every cons cell has been _evaluated_.
16:47:30 <oerjan> which requires finiteness, but is something more.
16:47:57 <Bike> is that something more distinguishable, other than timing or something like that
16:47:58 <oerjan> well except there's no way to ensure finiteness without evaluating all the cons cells.
16:48:38 <Bike> the static analyzer could hypothetically do some analysis couldn't it
16:49:07 <Bike> [1..n] is finite (or bottom) and so on
16:49:22 <nerflils> Who can solve this? http://pastebin.com/WG0mSe6L
16:49:44 <Bike> please rephrase in the form of haskell ephemera
16:49:58 <Bike> wow i can't even read this, fuc.
16:50:08 <oerjan> Bike: anyway the rule in haskell is that recursions are defined as their denotationally least fixpoint, which is bottom if bottom _is_ a solution to the equation.
16:50:17 <Gracenotes> it is true that Haskell gets a lot of its performance out of aggressive inlining (whole-function-call-optimization, from the point of view of functions being called...)
16:50:37 <Bike> how's the order defined exactly?
16:51:40 <Gracenotes> Bike: scroll down for the pretteh graphs http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Denotational_semantics
16:54:03 <Bike> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/File:List-graph.png oh ok got it.
16:54:08 <Bike> kinda sad i understand that.
16:57:15 <oerjan> "There is a mistake, ():[] appears twice. Only the one marked with a red ellipse is correct, the other one should be ():\perp."
16:58:03 <Gracenotes> So Haskell evaluation would be monotonic in this lattice, or something
16:58:32 <Gracenotes> which is actually a pretty boring statement
16:58:55 <Bike> well it was a boring and pedantic queestion on my part to begin with, so that works
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18:33:06 <FreeFull> According to http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Abbreviations HTH stands for Hope This Helps. I like Holy Toe Help or whatever it was better though.
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18:43:53 <nerflils> Who can solve this puzzle? http://pastebin.com/WG0mSe6L
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19:07:08 <zzo38> What would be the smallest Turing-complete sequent calculus?
19:07:28 <nerflils> Step 1: http://pastebin.com/TyV4Eqpa step 2: http://pastebin.com/kKn0mNNA step 3: http://i.imgur.com/FX3fAd7.png step 4: http://pastebin.com/WG0mSe6L
19:08:11 <zzo38> Why don't you post the URLs for raw access instead?
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19:47:49 <Taneb> I really need to get out of the habit of opening and closing my CD tray
19:48:50 <fizzie> As far as habits go, that really doesn't sound like the most destructive of them.
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19:53:01 <Taneb> Just did it while watching a movie
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19:53:32 <Bike> did it again while maintaining the network
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20:01:40 <Bike> http://laughingsquid.com/terrible-jpeg-compression-transforms-the-tragedy-of-romeo-and-juliet-into-tej-uqahdfsmenolcr-dlculfgr/ cute
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20:03:06 <elliott> Bike: I was typing a lame joke assuming that the URL just cut off after "into" and that the rest was a base 26 identifier type thing
20:03:07 <elliott> good thing I clicked first.
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20:06:32 <Sgeo> I have lost every game I have played on FICS, apparently
20:06:33 <Sgeo> http://ficsgames.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?player=Sgeo&action=History
20:06:43 <Sgeo> At least the recorded ones
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20:24:25 <Taneb> Well, I've watched the Dark Knight
20:24:39 <Taneb> Tuesday night I'll watch Rises
20:32:09 <Taneb> Oh god I'm crying at Batman again
20:34:20 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Erill_2011_EBM_Conference_Researchsome.png
20:34:29 <Taneb> Bike, why does Batman make me cry
20:34:49 <Taneb> Why can't the franchise be more like the Avengers and kinda cheery
20:34:52 <Taneb> That would be nice
20:35:03 <Bike> well batman is all about grittiness and sadness.
20:35:09 <Bike> you may recall that his parents are deeeeeead
20:35:29 <Taneb> But so are Iron Man's
20:35:38 <Taneb> Not quite deeeeeead
20:36:53 <Bike> iron man also works in the bright and cheery real world rather than gotham, land of darkness and not having a sun
20:37:33 <Taneb> "The definition of home use excludes the use of this DVD at locations such as... oil rig"
20:38:20 <Bike> but people live on oil rigs........
20:38:28 <olsner> just because you're at sea you shouldn't think you can simply watch DVDs you bought
20:41:47 <Taneb> In other news, I cannot wait for Thor 2
20:42:03 <Taneb> Or about half a dozen other movies coming out this year
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21:05:48 <zzo38> Does anyone on any channel of the IRC can answer my questions about the ephemeris?
21:06:18 <Taneb> I don't even know what the ephemeris
21:07:49 <zzo38> I was asking how to make/acquire the program to make ephemeris which is also including not only the position of the planets but also the rotation of planets (including Pluto).
21:08:35 <Taneb> Relative to the sun?
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21:11:21 <zzo38> I mean the rotations around their own axis. The positions can be relative to anything as long as it is consistent, although the position of the Sun still needs to be included, also relative to the same thing (it could be the Sun itself (in which case the Sun's coordinates are zero), or the barycenter, for example).
21:12:07 <Taneb> Well, you can approximate it with ellipses
21:12:39 <Taneb> But thanks to chaos theory and that it'll break down after a few thousand years or so
21:13:49 <Taneb> Well, it doesn't. but something else did, and I mayswell share this with you
21:13:59 <Taneb> I need to update my lists of things I need to thing
21:14:34 <zzo38> I know there are existing ephemeris such as JPL and Swiss Ephemeris (which will use data files and then interpolate), although I don't think Swiss Ephemeris can calculate the rotation of anything other than the Earth (neither can Astrolog; it will always display geocentric houses).
21:15:29 <Taneb> Do you also want to trace the path of the Galilean moons and possibly other moons too?
21:16:25 <zzo38> It would be a good idea to have them.
21:19:54 <zzo38> In what I am doing though, they aren't as important as calculating the rotation of Pluto.
21:20:05 <Taneb> I am going to sleep now
21:20:19 <Taneb> I will go on an adventure
21:21:13 <Taneb> I will embark on a train to the far-off city of Newcastle
21:21:25 <Taneb> From where I shall walk south, into the heart of Gateshead
21:22:50 <Taneb> When I get there, I shall receive a temporary boon in the form of clothing
21:23:05 <Taneb> And I'll play some Guitar Hero and Super Smash Bros and what have you
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22:16:22 <tswett> My next esoteric programming language shall be called ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.
22:16:35 <tswett> > length ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"
22:16:39 <tswett> Yeah. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.
22:17:00 <tswett> Now, what shall it be?????????????????????????????????
22:17:31 <tswett> I dunno. Probably something based on the idea of conservation of resources.
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22:43:18 <oerjan> ooh it has dropped http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0717/463097-trinity-college-dublin-pitch-experiment/
22:46:01 <Bike> Finally, my pitch swimming pool will reach fruition.
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01:47:49 <Sgeo> Rewatching Who's on First
01:48:00 <Sgeo> Considering that there is actually someone who calls himself why...
01:48:59 <Bike> you know that sketch is based on people with names like Hu
01:49:42 <shachaf> wait, is baseball played on bicycles
01:49:52 <Bike> bicycle polo, bicycle baseball
01:49:57 <Bike> it follows logically, shachaf
01:50:00 <Sgeo> Bike: I did not realize that
01:50:22 <Bike> well you should, bicycle baseball is a noble sport
01:52:12 <shachaf> kmc: should i acquire a mölkky thing
02:02:46 <shachaf> http://preview.tinyurl.com/mecrh3h -- oerjan
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02:14:31 <oerjan> shachaf: i get a "preview" thing showing a data: url. my browser refuses to follow the actual link to that.
02:16:09 <oerjan> maybe some other time hth
02:16:55 <oerjan> with sufficient laziness time can be infinite
02:17:19 <shachaf> i know someone who is infinite
02:17:38 <oerjan> i don't know yet, ask me when i've finished evaluating
02:20:14 <shachaf> ion: my terminal renders the solidus through the r
02:20:19 <shachaf> that's not the intention, is it
02:20:32 <ion> It is not.
02:20:51 <ion> How about oœ̷̈r?
02:21:20 <ion> But the ¨ is over the œ?
02:22:55 <shachaf> In the second example the ¨ is over the r.
02:23:05 <shachaf> Hmm, in the first example too.
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02:23:31 <shachaf> But note that when I select and copy the æ, the two combining characters come along with it
02:24:11 <ion> What terminal is that, btw?
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02:25:16 <ion> Huh. Works in mine.
02:25:20 <Bike> what's the plural of "solidus"
02:25:28 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you know "Kubb"?
02:25:33 <ion> bike: Kubb
02:25:38 <shachaf> "Number Kubb"/"Bex Kubb"/whatever.
02:27:45 <oerjan> kubb the wood block throwing game?
02:27:56 * oerjan never played it himself
02:28:04 <shachaf> Whose self did you play it?
02:28:19 <oerjan> but i saw someone playing it this spring.
02:28:35 <shachaf> oerjan: As far as I can tell that's the same thing as "Mölkky".
02:30:20 <nooodl> i've played kubb once and it wasn't very fun imo
02:30:59 <oerjan> i don't think it's exactly the same, different shapes of blocks
02:31:09 <nooodl> part of it is the psychological aspect where you realize
02:31:13 <shachaf> ohwait was it the version with the numbers
02:31:21 <nooodl> i'm literally throwing wood blocks at wood blocks
02:31:25 <shachaf> i think there are multiple things called kubb
02:31:31 <nooodl> how do you live with that
02:31:46 <nooodl> my kubb was non-numbered
02:31:57 <oerjan> well (english) wikipedia has a mölkky article and a kubb article.
02:31:59 <nooodl> it was this kubb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubb
02:33:41 <oerjan> well number kubb sounds like it would be different, and mölkky has numbered ones
02:34:37 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Bowling
02:35:20 <shachaf> i declare the finnish one to be the best hth
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02:57:17 <kmc> shachaf: yes
03:04:10 <ion> shachaf: yes
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03:57:41 <dlackili> Step 1: http://pastebin.com/TyV4Eqpa step 2: http://pastebin.com/kKn0mNNA step 3: http://i.imgur.com/FX3fAd7.png step 4: http://pastebin.com/WG0mSe6L
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04:00:43 <shachaf> what should i do on my birthday
04:02:27 <shachaf> Are you mafingre or whoever they were?
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04:04:33 <shachaf> Weren't you banned or something?
04:04:34 <shachaf> Or was that only in the other channel?
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04:13:36 <Bike> can anyone solve the puzzle of fuck my internet connection
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04:15:11 <shachaf> Bike: the solution is run irssi via mosh hth
04:17:28 <dlackili> http://pastebin.com/NWe0rTYc <<<< python script I came up with to try test some shit out
04:18:07 <Bike> does python even have bigfloats
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04:19:51 <Bike> oh, you don't even use the values.
04:22:53 <nooodl> so which of the clues points to DES3 dlackili
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04:23:52 <dlackili> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_cipher_mode_of_operation#Electronic_codebook_.28ECB.29
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04:25:51 <nooodl> i googled "ecb" "voldemort" while solving it and
04:25:52 <nooodl> http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.be/2009/04/ecbs-lord-vortemort-policy.html
04:26:03 <nooodl> Like the wizards in Harry Potter afraid to say "Voldemort" the dark lord's name, the ECB is afraid to speak of deflation.
04:26:27 <nooodl> so i was using DEFLATE (gzip) instead of that :')
04:27:03 <dlackili> how did you use the integral value?
04:27:10 <nooodl> i didn't. that's why i got stuck probably
04:27:58 <Bike> dlackili: seriously, you realize most of the digits of that aren't going to be used, right
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04:50:52 <zzo38> I am playing ADOM and managed to get my PV down to negative 1275.
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05:05:47 <nooodl> zzo38: do you play any other roguelikes?
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05:18:18 <nooodl> zzo38: which ones have you played?
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05:23:12 <shachaf> kmc: turns out maybe i have a mölkky thing in WA
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05:37:19 <kmc> have it mailed to you, i guess
05:37:51 <dlackili> nooodl: Do you think it could be DES?
05:38:02 <dlackili> DES uses 16 byte or 24 byte keys
05:39:04 <nooodl> i've already seen the solution (what happened to the - by the way?)
05:40:02 <nooodl> oh i was talking about i saw the python script you pasted
05:40:15 <dlackili> nooodl: That is not the solution :P
05:40:36 <dlackili> because of the 'tom marvolo riddle' part being an anagram as well
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05:51:22 <coppro> fuck I have too many hobbies
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06:35:51 <kmc> shachaf: when is your birthday
06:39:39 <kmc> happy preëmptive birthday
06:40:20 <shachaf> is that the opposite of a coöperative birthday
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06:56:09 <Gracenotes> say, what color ceramic mini-teacup/teapot combination should I get?
06:56:26 <Gracenotes> Red, Carrot, Mandarin, Lime, Turquoise, Marine, White, Gray, or Black Graphite?
06:56:56 <shachaf> are you sure carrot/mandarin/lime are color choices
06:57:02 <shachaf> they sound more like food choices to me
06:57:16 <Gracenotes> in particular http://www.forlifedesign.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=12_47&products_id=34
06:57:33 <Gracenotes> all of the colors even have three letter codes
06:58:01 <shachaf> I suppose you're not asking which one *I* would get.
06:59:10 <Gracenotes> well which one would you get, and why?
07:00:32 <shachaf> suddenly we gotta say why?
07:00:53 <Bike> invisible. so that you can't get snuck up on while having your tea party.
07:01:35 <shachaf> "Draw a noughts-and-crosses board, sometimes also referred to as a tic-tac-toe board. Do not fill it in with noughts and crosses, sometimes called exes and ohs. Instead, use curved arrows. By drawing more lines, make it a board for four-by-four (instead of three-by-three) noughts and crosses. Wave your hands about in complicated patterns over this board. Make some noughts, but not in the squares; put them at both ends of the horizontal and ...
07:01:42 <shachaf> ... vertical lines. Make faces. You have now proved:
07:01:52 <shachaf> (d) that four-by-four noughts-and-crosses is a simple two-person, zero-sum game
07:01:57 <shachaf> (f) that square-dancing is for squares"
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07:02:29 <shachaf> Bike: the nine lemma is rather creatively named, isn't it
07:02:51 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_lemma
07:02:52 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_lemma
07:02:56 <Gracenotes> shachaf: well, why would you get the color you didn't want to say you got?
07:04:09 <Bike> i guess i should figure out what a kernel is outside of linalg. whatever
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08:32:25 <zzo38> Have you noticed that both $a^n+b^n=c^n$ and $n^a+n^b=n^c$ share a property? The property is for integers a,b,c,n with a>0, b>0, c>0, n>1, there are infinitely many solutions when n=2 and no solutions when n>2.
08:37:20 <zzo38> (The second one is much easier to prove; at least I think it is; I have figured out a proof myself but haven't seen any elsewhere)
08:37:44 <zzo38> (However, it is a informal proof, not a real proof.)
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09:36:45 <fizzie> I think I've seen a proof for the n^a + n^b = n^c, n>2 thing somewhere, possibly in a book about the Fermat thing.
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10:28:31 <zzo38> I am thinking that you can write it by place value, in base n; in the left, either a=b so one digit is 2 and the rest 0, or two digits are 1 and the rest 0; on the right, one digit is 1 and the rest 0. Therefore it doesn't match. In the case n=2 there is no digit "2" so a=b will carry to the next position.
10:29:23 <zzo38> I have not seen the proof, but I have seen it mentioned under the name "Fourmi's Well-Tested Conjecture".
10:30:45 <zzo38> Is this the correct proof or is it a different one?
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10:35:56 <zzo38> fizzie: Do you remember anything about that?
10:39:11 <fizzie> I don't think the proof I saw (if I saw one) was like that. But I don't really remember.
10:39:43 <zzo38> I don't really know what the other proof would be. Do you have any idea of a proof?
10:44:02 <zzo38> How would you prove it?
10:46:38 <fizzie> Apparently the "Fourmi" name comes from the Gödel, Escher, Bach book, where it's kind of a Fermat pun. I don't think it contains a proof. (It might be that I'm just confusedly remembering that.)
10:46:58 <ion> Official Trailer from Comic Con | SWOOSH http://youtu.be/NeVCR1qfMaU
10:47:03 <zzo38> Yes, it does come from that book, and yes, it doesn't contain a proof.
10:50:57 <zzo38> (I also don't know if Hofstadter came up with n^a + n^b = n^c or not.)
11:00:10 <fizzie> zzo38: The internet seems to claim that a paper by Orts Aracil, J. M.; A conjecture concerning Fermat’s last theorem (in Spanish). Mem. Real Acad. Ci. Art. Barcelona, 34, 1961, 17–25; is about it. Another book -- screen capture at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130722-orts.png -- quotes this.
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12:32:48 <Jafet> @ask shachaf “It has sometimes been suggested that half pi should be called hi, and written τ. Explain why this idea was not discovered until recently.”
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12:55:38 <oerjan> <shachaf> (c) the Twenty-five Lemma <-- huh, http://mathoverflow.net/questions/4562/is-there-an-infinity-infinity-lemma-for-abelian-categories
12:56:05 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> (c) the Twenty-five Lemma <-- huh, http://mathoverflow.net/questions/4562/is-there-an-infinity-infinity-lemma-for-abelian-categories
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16:10:19 <HackEgo> olist (903): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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17:26:07 <kmc> 'morning all
17:28:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: morning: not found
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17:57:45 <nooodl> photoshop joke: why do they call them "photoshop filters" if they're really more like "photoshop maps"
18:01:12 <Bike> happy pi approximation day *adjusts glasses, pocket protector*
18:02:20 <Fiora> Bike: you're a qtπ
18:02:48 * kmc hugs Fiora, Bike
18:04:00 <Fiora> http://image7.spreadshirt.com/image-server/v1/products/18541668/views/1,width=378,height=378,appearanceId=277/QT-pie-ladies.png this is great
18:05:02 <Bike> i would have picked a different font
18:05:10 <Bike> (to continue the "nerd" aspect here)
18:10:10 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/13c2422860ee58525968c4c6f95acdb9/tumblr_mq90stNdwB1sumj40o2_1280.jpg the heck is this guy
18:10:51 <kmc> no I just like hugs
18:11:27 <Bike> oh that's good too
18:11:34 <shachaf> i like hugs on special occasions
18:11:39 <shachaf> but hugs make every occasion special
18:11:59 <kmc> you understand
18:12:38 <fizzie> There's a Qt/QtMobility demo titled "do not call me cute".
18:13:22 <olsner> hmm, I read that Qt is supposed to be pronounced cute
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18:32:53 <kmc> what did you do?
18:43:04 <shachaf> Hmm, these BALINESE MUSICAL SYMBOLs are great.
18:45:31 <Taneb> kmc, I went to a small anime con
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19:08:50 <kmc> damn, Pin crashes on rust programs
19:09:06 <kmc> I wanted to write a Pin tool to track down bad refcounting
19:09:14 <kmc> kind of a silly approach but an excuse to learn Pin
19:13:52 <kmc> http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/pin-a-dynamic-binary-instrumentation-tool
19:15:13 <Gracenotes> that's a front-end to the several-dozen debug registers intel archs have these days?
19:16:21 <kmc> I don't think it has anything to do with debug registers
19:17:15 <olsner> besides being called an "instrumentation tool", it also says it uses instrumentation
19:17:45 <kmc> it's a native-to-native code JIT compiler that lets you insert instrumentation calls anywhere in the code
19:17:59 <Fiora> is that the thing the Intel SDE uses?
19:18:03 <Gracenotes> so you have to explicitly invoke it, then
19:18:17 <kmc> it's like the framework behind valgrind's tools
19:18:26 <Fiora> does valgrind JIT?
19:18:37 <kmc> you run it on a normal binary and say "call this function every time you execute an INC with a memory operand" or whatever
19:18:41 <Gracenotes> and it's a competitor to things like Systemtap (but more userspace-oriented, I suppose)
19:18:56 <kmc> Fiora: yes
19:19:00 <Fiora> oh, right, there's like that valgrind.h thing that you can use includes from to make valgrind do things
19:19:12 <Fiora> huh, I had no idea... geez, I thought it was so slow, it couldn't be JITing xD
19:19:32 <kmc> it's slow because it tracks two bits of metadata for every bit in memory
19:20:18 <Gracenotes> depending on how much analysis you want done
19:20:58 <kmc> not sure it has much to do with Systemtap either
19:21:13 <kmc> or valgrind.h
19:21:47 <Gracenotes> where would the INC example be useful? unless you pulled it out of nowhere
19:21:55 <kmc> <kmc> I wanted to write a Pin tool to track down bad refcounting
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19:22:58 <Fiora> oooh. the SDE *does* use Pin
19:23:50 <kmc> Fiora: that is, the default Valgrind tool (Memcheck) tracks two bits of metadata. like Pin, Valgrind is a framework for dynamic recompilation with instrumentation, and supports a variety of tools
19:24:20 <Fiora> that makes sense... is itsomething that you can like, use, without writing a massive valgrind tool or something?
19:24:29 <Fiora> like you mentioned just tracking some single custom thing
19:24:41 <kmc> I don't know how hard it is to write a custom valgrind tool
19:24:58 <kmc> it's not hard to write a Pin tool and I've heard that Pin is generally better and more capable
19:25:03 <kmc> alas, it's not open source
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19:37:18 <nortti> http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/gopher.jpg
19:44:53 <Bike> i'd prefer being a gopher to being a protocol, i think
19:45:37 <Fiora> I guess you could go pher being a gopher?
19:46:07 <Bike> I could go pher being a gopher
19:46:24 <elliott> I was literally trying not to make a gopher it joke.
19:48:17 <Bike> you should have gone pher the gopher joke before fiora went pher the gopher oke
19:48:32 <elliott> I'm no good at pherring, Bike
19:49:09 <Bike> what does that even mean.
19:49:25 <Bike> it's not like... it's not a verb, man.
19:49:59 <olsner> it's *not* like not a verb?
19:50:00 <Fiora> bike you are the best person
19:50:16 <Fiora> also elliott, see! I helped you not make a gopher joke
19:50:18 <Fiora> by making it for you
19:50:24 <Bike> i'm also better at toing than elliott is apparently
19:50:28 <Bike> mark of my bestness
19:51:44 <Fiora> you're both the best okay
19:51:57 <Fiora> elliott's the best at being cute and you're the best at going pher terrible puns
19:52:16 <Bike> is that even a pun
19:52:19 <Bike> what's a wentpher
19:52:25 <Bike> (about five pounds)
19:55:13 <Bike> if you have to ask, you'll never know
19:55:27 <Fiora> I googled wentpher and found https://twitter.com/jasonisnice/status/184560408173101057
19:58:06 <Fiora> gopher the puns, staypher the nonsensical rambling that follows
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20:23:27 <`^_^v> a couple months ago this o'reilly book called "understanding computation" came out, its been pretty good for filling in gaps of my cs knowledge
20:24:31 <`^_^v> i've only read the first chapter on formal semantics so far though
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20:30:01 <Bike> what kinda semantics
20:33:38 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/C17-Vortex.JPG gosh wikipedia has the coolest photos
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20:33:54 <fizzie> Fiora: It looks happy.
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20:34:28 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/DN-SD-06-03008.JPG
20:34:46 <fizzie> I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Peacekeeper-missile-testing.jpg was also a very impressive Wikipedia photo, if a bit... disturbing... if you stop and think. Maybe.
20:34:59 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/C27_SPartan_making_condensation_spirals.jpg it looks like someone got string stuck on the propellors
20:35:13 <Fiora> oh geez, yeah. that picture is terrifying
20:39:58 <olsner> hmm, how long is the exposure? are we looking at like the last second before the nuclear apocalypse or the last 10 minutes?
20:40:33 <fizzie> It does say explicitly "long exposure", so... pretty long?
20:42:40 <fizzie> (I would think not ten minutes, though?)
20:42:47 <fizzie> The exif tags don't say. :(
20:43:06 <Fiora> did exif tagging even exist back then?
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20:44:50 <fizzie> The source gallery doesn't really even tell when it was taken, sadly.
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20:46:06 <fizzie> ("Peacekeeper" is quite a name for a missile.)
20:52:30 <oerjan> someone either has or hasn't read nineteen eighty-four before naming that.
20:52:58 <oerjan> unless there's an even more precise reference
20:53:21 <kmc> mutually assured destruction, dood
20:54:10 <fizzie> oerjan: [[ The new ICBM missile was originally planned to be called "Peacemaker", but at the last minute was officially designated the LGM-118A Peacekeeper. ]]
20:54:17 <fizzie> I guess "Peacemaker" is even more ominous.
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20:57:10 <kmc> anyway nuclear weapons "kept the peace" only in that they caused war to get outsourced to poor countries that don't have nukes
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21:01:02 <Bike> or sometimes do, like india~
21:02:35 <fizzie> "Category:Commons featured widescreen desktop backgrounds -- They are therefore likely to be good desktop backgrounds (wallpaper) -- DefecatingSeagull.jpg" yeah, I... I don't think so.
21:08:15 <oerjan> so they're just talking gullshit
21:11:02 <fizzie> There was also a photo of Angela Merkel. I mean, there was nothing wrong with the photo, but I'm a bit unsure how many people would make that a desktop background.
21:13:33 <kmc> shachaf: what should I make using Pin? now that I know how to do stuff
21:14:14 <shachaf> what sorts of things does Pin let you do
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21:15:15 <shachaf> kmc: did you see my investigation of character widths in #mosh the other day
21:15:22 <kmc> http://software.intel.com/sites/landingpage/pintool/docs/58423/Pin/html/
21:15:50 <shachaf> it turns out wcwidth() is broken for unicode 6 "or something"
21:16:07 <shachaf> maybe mosh should ship its own wcwidth
21:16:38 <kmc> yeah I think so
21:16:47 <kmc> we have at least one pull request open with an implementation of same
21:17:00 <shachaf> i vaguely looked at how tmux does it and it looks like it has a little table of character widths
21:17:22 <shachaf> What's stopping it from being pulled?
21:17:41 <oerjan> <fizzie> [...] but I'm a bit unsure how many people would make that a desktop background. <-- was it that famous picture of her dress with a lot of cleavage twh
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21:19:43 <oerjan> or possibly make it worse
21:21:07 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see the `olist before i mentioned it
21:22:11 <kmc> shachaf: I don't know; I haven't been active with Mosh code in recent months
21:22:19 <kmc> and I think KeithW is often busy
21:22:34 <kmc> I should get off my ass and do maintainer things but...
21:22:34 <oerjan> shachaf: before you did it in the logs? no.
21:23:13 <shachaf> kmc: imo get a donkey and ride it to work hth
21:23:27 <kmc> i ride a bike
21:23:30 <kmc> which is like an iron donkey
21:23:46 <shachaf> the iron donkey would be a good name for a band
21:23:56 <oerjan> shachaf: that would depend on how literal you are about "`olist" in that sentence hth
21:23:59 * Fiora resists urge to make jokes about kmc riding bikes
21:24:12 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see the comic update before i mentioned it
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21:24:38 <shachaf> anyway, get off your bike and do maintainer things
21:30:06 <shachaf> "About 41 million donkeys were reported worldwide in 2006"
21:30:15 <shachaf> why are there so few donkeys in the world!!
21:30:20 <oerjan> what were they reported for?
21:34:56 <kmc> i'm reading some gecko code now
21:35:03 <kmc> it's pretty nice and clear
21:35:07 <kmc> don't know if the whole codebase is
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22:23:16 <Fiora> Bike: http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9709094v1.pdf
22:23:23 <Fiora> "The only known effect on the later nuclear burning is that substantial destruction of all elements heavier than helium via spallation reactions can occur if the final plunge has an appreciable radial component (Bildsten, Salpeter & Wasserman 1992). The predicted amounts of spallation are substantial and basically turn the accreted matter into hydrogen, helium and a mix of light fragments"
22:23:53 <Bike> is this about accretion disks
22:24:12 <Fiora> "Matter accreted onto a neutron star of mass M and radius R releases GMmp/R ≈ 200 MeV per nucleon"
22:24:29 <Fiora> it's about runaway nuclear fusion in neutron star atmospheres, for quasi-repeating x-ray bursts
22:24:50 <Fiora> I think it's kind of like type 1a supernovae? except, like, they don't blow apart the star or anything
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22:26:16 <Bike> runaway nuclear fusion in an atmosphere
22:26:32 <Fiora> well, I guess, neutron star surfaces? I don't know
22:26:41 <Fiora> it's a little weird to think about
22:27:08 <Bike> wow this is from 97
22:27:57 <Bike> oh and it was in a book
22:28:02 <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/Faces-Neutron-Stars-Science-Series/dp/0792351940
22:28:21 <Bike> "darn, no reviews"
22:29:22 <Bike> also what's "quasi-repeating" mean
22:29:32 <Fiora> um, like, it repeats, but not perfectly regularly, I think?
22:29:51 <Fiora> so like, accretion causing instabilities which cause fusion events every few hours might have irregularities
22:30:00 <Fiora> as opposed to like, a pulsar that repeats every 0.018283772 seconds
22:30:14 <shachaf> What does "I guess B.o.B. was right." mean?
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22:32:03 <Fiora> it's basically like, you have an accretion of some amount of stellar mass every second with some hydrogen/helium fraction and so on
22:32:33 <Fiora> and based on parameters they want to figure out how stable the fusion of hydrogen/helium on the surface of the neutron star is, and if it isn't stable, how long until an instability is reached and it "flashes"
22:32:53 <Fiora> and what sort of energy it'd produce, what relation it has to the neutron star's properties, and so on, so like, astronomers can search for them and stuff?
22:33:53 <Fiora> wow. neutron stars do in fact have an eddington limit o_O
22:34:21 <Fiora> "The Eddington luminosity, also referred to as the Eddington limit, is the maximum luminosity a body (such as a star) can achieve when there is balance between the force of radiation acting outward and the gravitational force acting inward. The state of balance is called hydrostatic equilibrium."
22:35:37 <Bike> why must octopuses understand hydrostatics more than i do :<
22:36:47 <Fiora> it's basically like "if it's any brighter it would throw off tons of mass"
22:38:43 <Fiora> this incredibly bright fusion flash that we see as an x-ray flare....
22:38:51 <Fiora> diffuses the burning layer of the star upwards by...
22:39:09 <Bike> that's not very many meters.
22:39:23 <Fiora> I guess that's a lot when your material is like, 100 million tons per cc @_@
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22:41:31 <Bike> obviously this would be good and practical to use for power generation.
22:42:31 <Fiora> http://arxiv.org/pdf/0711.4078v2.pdf oooh here's the quasistar paper!
22:44:13 <Fiora> "The key feature of this scenario is that while the black hole is embedded within the envelope, its growth is limited by the Eddington limit for the whole quasistar, rather than that appropriate for the black hole mass itself. Very rapid growth can then occur at early times, when the envelope mass greatly exceeds the black hole mass."
22:45:36 <Fiora> "Our model quasistars are assumed to be spherically symmetric and in hydrostatic equilibrium. Real quasistars, if they exist, may not obey these strictures, and thus our results cannot be definitive." let us assume a spherical star
22:47:23 <oerjan> and frictionless, obviously
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00:05:06 <HackEgo> Gracenotes: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:06:24 <Gracenotes> still haven't picked a teapot color :/
00:08:36 <Jafet> `run echo '#' | rainwords
00:10:18 <Gracenotes> there are a few concerns. I want it to look nice, show off the tea color well, and also hide tea stains relatively well.
00:10:55 <Gracenotes> both of the latter two are impossible to achieve at the same time
00:11:22 <Bike> what if the color on the outside changed when heated (as if by spilled tea)
00:12:15 <Gracenotes> they're more to do with inside color, though
00:16:05 <Gracenotes> it's also about making a statement. nice and pleasant blue marine, or startling yellow/orange, or positively royalist deep red?
00:20:57 <Gracenotes> plus, how will it look when it is slightly worn? for best results here, it needs to maintain its modern look without falling into 80s-era flimsy-art-deco territory
00:22:15 <Bike> maybe you should find a professional.
00:23:28 <Bike> professional tea set locators, i mean.
00:23:44 <shachaf> Is that people who locate professional tea sets?
00:23:52 <shachaf> Even an amateur could do that.
00:24:19 <Bike> a professional professional tea set locator.
00:24:32 <Gracenotes> oh, tea set locators are just for spoiled tech workers with too much disposable income... oh.
00:24:44 * oerjan imagines a black and white checkerboard teapot
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00:25:57 <Bike> Gracenotes: you could pay them back by briefly working as a professional professional professional tea set locator disambiguator. Or farm that work out to shachaf for a small fee if you're feeling lazy.
00:38:03 <Gracenotes> I hope you have a portfolio of professional professional tea set locators you've found
00:38:26 <Gracenotes> Not that I don't trust Bike's referral...
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01:21:28 <shachaf> kmc: i like the idea of #[layout="C"]
01:22:01 <Bike> for controlling struct layout?
01:22:21 <shachaf> as opposed to the kind of ad-hoc thing that's going on right now
01:22:31 <Bike> i thought that was implementation-defined in C
01:23:00 <comex> and that means "by the ABI"
01:23:32 <Bike> oh, so that would make it have the target ABI's layout, gotcha
01:23:54 <shachaf> Yes, I mean compatibility with an ABI.
01:24:00 <shachaf> Which is what it does now anyway.
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02:18:34 <zzo38> TV Tropes has a article for "Sequence Breaking", but is there some that the proper (intentional) solution involves apparent sequence breaking?
02:19:18 <kmc> shachaf: I like that idea too
02:19:26 <kmc> I think the more Rusty syntax would be #[layout(C)] but not sure
02:19:43 <shachaf> Sounds good. Someone suggested that in the channel.
02:19:51 <zzo38> Using the maze graphic example, it could be a game where there is a invisible trap inside of the maze, so the only solution is to go around.
02:20:00 <shachaf> Maybe I'll send an email to the list about it.
02:21:22 <zzo38> These example of "Sequence Breaking", "Not The Intended Use", etc could possibly be done in the deliberate way where the way which appears to be what should be the proper way won't even work anyways.
02:23:29 <oerjan> zzo38: it sounds like an obvious novelty to try so there are probably such games. (but i don't know which as i'm not much of a computer gamer)
02:24:56 <zzo38> They might be possible in other games too such as Dungeons&Dragons, though.
02:25:02 <zzo38> Not only computer games necessarily.
02:25:19 <oerjan> well obviously a good GM/DM could try to do such things
02:25:59 <oerjan> in either case i suspect some of the difficulty is making it not so hard to realize that the players just get frustrated and annoyed
02:30:47 <zzo38> Well, I, as the player, am not frustrated and annoyed by such thing; it is the more common rules which I don't like much (for example one book says that the frost giant shouldn't have fire traps because the players aren't prepared; I disagree, the giant will put in such traps deliberately in order to prevent someone from entering if they think they are prepared!)
02:36:56 <shachaf> http://shachaf.net/curry.rs.txt
02:37:48 <Bike> nice 'n' readable
02:47:59 <zzo38> Do some computer games have checkpoint traps?
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02:51:51 <shachaf> Bike: your prose is nice 'n' readable!!
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04:07:57 <Taneb> I fell asleep 7 hours ago
04:08:02 <Taneb> I did not want to do tht
04:08:52 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Tue Jul 23 05:08:56
04:09:11 <Gracenotes> ah, well, either try to back to sleep more or drink lots and lots of caffeine
04:10:59 <Taneb> I had a dream I was programming in something like Python? idk
04:11:32 <elliott> says the guy who probably has biology dream
04:11:42 <Bike> yes. all orgies all the time
04:21:30 <Taneb> I was using this Python-like language to turn Pine trees into lumber
04:21:38 <Taneb> Using the pine.toLumber() instruction
04:22:31 <Taneb> Thus DESTROYING BIOLOGY! ahahahaha
04:26:40 <shachaf> i had a dream where i was a bicycle
04:26:51 <shachaf> it was refreshingly unbiological
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04:56:19 <kmc> that does sound nice
04:56:26 <kmc> what kind of bicycle were you
05:00:00 <zzo38> Can you win ADOM with one hit point (or just make your PV like negative one million; there are some attacks that bypass PV though)
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05:06:03 <tswett> fungot: dude, where'd you go?
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05:06:42 <tswett> fungot, that shining sun of my life, has plunged into the inky darkness of the ocean of the abyss of the valley of the shadow of death.
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05:25:07 <kmc> <dlackili> How can this custom "encryption" algorithm be made somewhat harder to "break"? <bennym> try involving a key somehow
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05:26:04 <Bike> isn't that the guy who was in here spamming his bullshit
05:29:06 <Bike> `run ls bin/ | grep past
05:29:08 <HackEgo> pastalog \ pastaquote \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog
05:29:21 <Bike> i don't know what any of these do.
05:29:27 <Bike> `pastlog dlackili
05:29:58 <HackEgo> 2010-07-24.txt:07:53:45: * Sgeo had a lot of pasta tonight
05:29:58 <HackEgo> 2013-07-22.txt:04:22:53: <nooodl> so which of the clues points to DES3 dlackili
05:30:20 <HackEgo> 2011-02-11.txt:19:13:35: <quintopia> Gregor: i only ask because copypasta is difficult on my phone :P
05:32:59 <HackEgo> 2013-04-17.txt:17:09:58: <HackEgo> bin/pastalog: ASCII text
05:33:07 <kmc> imagine... a log made of pasta
05:33:11 <kmc> `paste bin/pastalog
05:33:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastalog
05:33:41 <kmc> when I saw HackEgo quoting nooodl I assumed that was also the output of pastalog
05:33:45 <Bike> "@cliffcheney I am nearing Cairo Univ. hearing constant machine gun fire" the future is so weird.
05:34:23 <kmc> who's shooting at whom
05:34:44 <Bike> beats me, but i mean they did just have a coup
05:34:51 <kmc> coup everday
05:34:57 <Bike> maybe some MB org being ripped apart
05:35:27 <kmc> 'The top US military officer says any decision to use force in Syria could cost America billions, and that care must be taken to "preserve a functioning state".' WHERE WAS THIS GUY IN 2003?
05:35:33 <Taneb> Probably relevant: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/07/201372216452414482.html
05:35:48 <kmc> remember when a bunch of people said that about Iraq and they were dismissed as traitors
05:36:21 <Bike> well, the thing about syria is that everybody above the level of mccain understands how shitty iraq went.
05:36:37 <Bike> joke about politicians being able to learn
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05:37:19 <Taneb> I think it may be a bit late to preserve a functioning state in Syria
05:37:39 <Bike> "It has been reported that people on both sides have guns. Normally we do not see violence so early in the day" being an al jazeera reporter must be sad
05:38:11 <Bike> the syrian state is still functioning
05:38:20 <Bike> just, not in the entirety of syria
05:38:51 <Bike> s/how shitty iraq went/how shitty iraq is going/
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05:39:47 <Bike> oh, actually, you know there's an Islamic State in Iraq in syria now
05:39:50 <Bike> p. great names
05:40:37 <Bike> oh, shit, they've actually renamed themselves. it's "Islamic State in Iraq and Syria" now :/
05:40:46 <Bike> er, and the levant.
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05:52:08 <Taneb> I can smell cornflakes
06:00:19 <shachaf> kmc: I'm getting the feeling all the people asking to break their exciting new cipher in ##crypto are actually the same person.
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06:22:00 <ion> This DIY motor is p. awesome. http://youtu.be/Esphle_MsXI
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06:25:00 <dlackili> How can a simple Homebrew cipher involving XOR/GCD/Euclid's algo in haskell?
06:25:31 <shachaf> Good question. How can it?
06:26:19 <Bike> so what's the deal with odd zeta constants.
06:26:27 <Bike> we, like, don't know if zeta(5) is irrational? imo, what the fuck.
06:28:41 <shachaf> Bike: hey i heard we don't know whether pi^pi^pi^pi is an integer
06:28:52 <shachaf> by we i mean you personally btw
06:29:04 <Bike> i do not know that, no.
06:29:10 <dlackili> gcd a b = a `xor` b, where binary (a `xor` b) = "hithisismyresult"
06:29:40 <dlackili> GCD + Final A and B in Euclid's Algorithm XOR some value -> plaintext
06:29:41 <Bike> "you know i don't think gcd works like taht"
06:30:04 <shachaf> forward to the smlist update tomorrow y/n
06:30:26 <dlackili> Anyone made a simple encryption algorithm/cipher before?
06:30:44 <Bike> turns out you can't do it by throwing together random shit, though!
06:31:06 <Bike> of course it was breakable, do i look like a genius to you
06:31:17 <shachaf> Bike: oh wikipedia says it's not known
06:31:34 <Bike> shachaf: yes. i also don't know.
06:31:42 <Bike> dlackili: it was just a caesar cipher.
06:31:58 <Bike> > pi ^ pi ^ pi ^ pi
06:32:01 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `GHC.Real.^'
06:32:05 <shachaf> "Particularly, it is not known if the positive root of the equation 4x = 2 is a rational number"
06:32:24 <Bike> tetration is hard.
06:32:30 <lambdabot> (Integral b, Num a) => a -> b -> a
06:32:45 <Bike> > pi ^ (pi ^ pi ^ pi ^ pi)
06:32:46 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `GHC.Real.^'
06:32:52 <Bike> well i guess that answers that question!
06:32:53 <dlackili> I am thinking of using XOR/AND/pi in my encryption algorithm for a puzzle
06:33:06 <Bike> shachaf: the joke is,
06:33:12 <Bike> > pi ** pi ** pi ** pi
06:33:29 <Bike> ok i got that locally but that's because i'm on a shitty 32 bit machine.
06:33:32 <dlackili> Anyone got any cool algorithm ideas?
06:33:34 <Bike> > (pi ** pi ** pi ** pi) :: CReal
06:34:05 <Bike> > let pi = pi :: CReal in pi ** pi ** pi ** pi -- i am the worst
06:34:31 <shachaf> now i can't tell which things are jokes anymore
06:34:42 <lambdabot> 437700548734202700764895770266348348092832914249674791140665053626929347534...
06:34:58 <dlackili> > 777777777777777777 * log 7 / log 2
06:35:12 <Bike> shachaf: the only joke was haskell not figuring if ⁴pi was an integer. the ret is incompetence.
06:35:37 <shachaf> imo more jokes, less incompetence
06:35:56 <dlackili> gcd a b = a `xor` b, where binary (a `xor` b) = "hithisismyresult"
06:35:58 <shachaf> haskell has ^ and ^^ and **
06:36:04 <dlackili> COuld that be an encryption routine?
06:36:12 <Bike> dlackili: a bad one
06:36:51 <shachaf> hey Bike, why do mirrors reflect things left-to-right and not up-to-down
06:37:02 <Bike> well to start with it doesn't even make sense. is that supposed to be, like, haskell
06:37:09 <Bike> shachaf: don't fucking stalk me
06:37:52 <Bike> oh right it's not even known if pi plus e is irrational
06:38:39 <Bike> well, it's unclear.
06:38:50 <shachaf> maybe all haskell code is pseudocode because haskell isn't used in the real world
06:38:52 <Bike> is "where" supposed to be english or pseudocode? why are you defining gcd wrongly? what's a and b
06:40:11 <dlackili> i'm not defining GCD… it's just an equation
06:40:35 <dlackili> and "where" is english or logic, you choose
06:40:55 <shachaf> Bike: what's the context of the "stalk" thing
06:41:13 <shachaf> that question comes from a source completely unrelated to you
06:41:37 <Bike> i was talking about that literally today.
06:41:57 <dlackili> So anyone have any encryption algorithm ideas in haskell?
06:42:05 <shachaf> but i'm p. sure you weren't involved...........
06:42:18 <lambdabot> (Fractional a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
06:42:34 <Bike> @let tetrate x 0 = 1; tetrate x n = x ** tetrate x (n - 1)
06:42:46 <zzo38> My brother once told me that he asked someone for additional objects in a computer game he was making, and one of the suggestions was "invisible bomb that kills you so much that you have to restart the entire game".
06:43:09 <Bike> am i missing something here.
06:43:19 <shachaf> you're missing a good haskell evaluation bot
06:43:22 <shachaf> all we have is lambdabot :'(
06:43:37 <Bike> isn't elliott in charge of it now? i can pointlessly and unwarrantedly blame him, right
06:43:54 <Bike> alright now for the important
06:43:55 <shachaf> Bike: nothing pointless or unwarranted about it
06:43:58 <Bike> > tetrate pi 4
06:44:01 <shachaf> he took over with the promise of making it better
06:44:12 <Bike> guess that proves it.
06:44:18 <Bike> > tetrate (pi :: CReal) 4
06:44:30 <Bike> should i even guess what's going on there.
06:45:23 <shachaf> where were you even talking about the mirror thing
06:46:09 <dlackili> A hill based cipher in haskell
06:46:24 <Bike> someone else asked me months ago
06:46:33 <shachaf> someone else asked me years ago
06:47:04 <dlackili> Bike: "such that" would have been better than "where"
06:51:41 <shachaf> that package is p. cool isn't it
06:55:28 <Bike> @let hyper 0 _ b = b + 1; hyper 1 a 0 = a; hyper 2 _ 0 = 0; hyper _ _ 0 = 1; hyper n a b = hyper (n - 1) a (hyper n a (b - 1))
06:55:35 <Bike> > hyper 1 7 19
06:55:57 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
06:59:04 <dlackili> Would be interested to see a Haskell implementation of it
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07:02:51 <Bike> dlackili: Maybe you should "hask" in #haskell.
07:03:29 <shachaf> 23:55 -!- dlackili [dcfdcefc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.253.206.252] has joined #haskell
07:03:32 <shachaf> 23:55 <dlackili> How could this be done in haskell? http://wiki.tcl.tk/3468
07:03:50 <Bike> elliott: Behold my power.
07:04:19 <elliott> Bike: your power is so amazing it took effect before you said it
07:04:38 <shachaf> the sulphur is now fully exposed to the power of the bicycle
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07:04:57 <shachaf> people are going to correct me for misquoting now :'(
07:05:17 <Bike> I have no idea what you were quoting.
07:05:43 <dlackili> shachaf: Haskell seems uninterested :P
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07:26:20 <shachaf> kmc: did you read Breakfast of Champions
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07:27:46 <comex> from ##c: 03:13 < dlackili> How could this be implemented in C? http://wiki.tcl.tk/3468
07:28:53 <Bike> How could this be implemented in brainfuck
07:29:24 <shachaf> This person has been doing this in ##crypto, too, of course.
07:29:32 <shachaf> After being banned under other nicks or something?
07:31:31 <ion> https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/bb1e8e1a773b87b1f0220a1e1993c830/tumblr_mpde0t3k031rvh71go1_1280.png
07:32:37 <ion> That’s one of the least horrible horrible URLs.
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08:27:37 <zzo38> I might want to see a proper full-length review of my computer games (and Dungeons&Dragons recording story, etc) (and including TV Tropes if applicable).
08:31:00 <zzo38> In Super ASCII MZX Town Part I, there is a feature which allows you to change the display of the player's position to always a happy face or to a variable (health, ammunition, torches, or torch light remaining). This feature exists in Part II, too. Do you see what I am getting to with this? Probably not, but if you do then please notify me!
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08:33:29 <zzo38> In the second to last level of Part I, there is a multiplication puzzle where you have to push numbered blocks onto dots in order to make a proper multiplication, you walk up to the door to try to open it and it opens if the multiplication is valid (it checks; the solution isn't hard-coded).
08:35:52 <zzo38> In the second to last level of Part II, there is a similar multiplication puzzle, although you have to instead push the space-bar when it is correct, in order to open the door, but there are more numbered blocks than dots and no matter how a subset of them are arranged there is no solution (I wrote a program to find solutions, and it found none).
08:35:57 <zzo38> Do you see what I mean yet?
08:37:20 <zzo38> (Note: For the player display feature, it will display a happy face if the register's value is 100 or more; otherwise it displays a digit which is one tenth of the register value (rounded down). For example, if you have 42 points of ammunition and you set it to display ammunition, it will display 4. You can still know it is the player by its distinctive color, though.)
08:37:33 <zzo38> (I think I have seen a similar feature in another game.)
08:48:36 <Taneb> Apparently mcmap is 0.6% Rust
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08:53:07 <zzo38> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm how much apparently iron is % Rust?
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09:06:52 <zzo38> You might know the logic puzzle where a man is caught and they say if what he says is true he will be hanged and what he says is false he will be shot.
09:07:46 <Taneb> The answer is "I will be shot", right?
09:08:25 <zzo38> That is their answer, but I don't think so. They don't say that if you do not say something true you will not be hanged, and if you do not say something false you will not be shot.
09:08:37 <zzo38> Anyways if they are let free then the statement is a lie...
09:09:07 <zzo38> If they hang him and then shoot him while he is hanging on the rope, that resolves the paradox and satisfies the conditions, I think.
09:10:04 <zzo38> Taneb: Do you think I am correct?
09:10:53 <Taneb> You raise some good points
09:11:34 <Taneb> And shooting him while he is being hanged does resolve the paradox
09:12:04 <zzo38> And letting him free violates the conditions
09:15:32 <zzo38> Did you tell anyone else?
09:21:30 <Fiora> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorne%E2%80%93%C5%BBytkow_object wow this is like. a cool thing
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09:34:36 <zzo38> Now, what about the Super ASCII MZX Town game? Did you answer this question yet?
09:35:12 <Taneb> What would the Olympics be like if the US had to send a different team for each state?
09:35:22 <Taneb> And each state had their own medal count
09:36:47 <zzo38> Taneb: They would change the country codes, I suppose.
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11:48:02 <fizzie> "s/PATTERN/REPLACEMENT/msixpodualgcer" so many flags they have these days.
11:50:05 <fizzie> It's implied by the e, I think.
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11:50:21 <Deewiant> Probably; just saying that there's even one more.
11:55:26 <elliott> "They have negotiated with the government and agreed on a system called "Active Choice +" in which customers opt in for filters [...] The leaked letter [...] suggests: "Without changing what you will be offering (ie active-choice +), the prime minister would like to be able to refer to your solutions [as] 'default-on'"."
11:55:40 <elliott> the offness of the filters defaults to on
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12:10:51 <dlackili> GCD'ing all the possible combinations will give them 12 letters/numbers if we specially design the four digits, though I haven't thought that through yet
12:11:28 <dlackili> if we could control 8 of the digits, we could get a pastebin link
12:11:42 <dlackili> i think it would be constructible using primes
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13:06:57 <boily> good humid morning!
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14:00:36 <oerjan> <Bike> we, like, don't know if zeta(5) is irrational? imo, what the fuck. <-- the thing is iirc, there is a simple proof that only works for even arguments, and a completely unexpected special proof for 3. all larger odd numbers are unknown.
14:01:33 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> we, like, don't know if zeta(5) is irrational? imo, what the fuck. <-- the thing is iirc, there is a simple proof that only works for even arguments, and a completely unexpected special proof for 3. all larger odd arguments are unknown.
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14:02:33 <fizzie> ^tell oerjan Use a better bot.
14:02:33 <fungot> I think you mean @tell instead?
14:02:39 <fizzie> fungot: I don't think that's helpful at all.
14:02:40 <fungot> fizzie: i don't see how 99bob is related.)
14:02:49 <fungot> oerjan: most of them are much worse things in haskell syntax... as usual it's much simpler
14:03:25 <fungot> oerjan: final fantasy vii
14:03:57 <boily> oh, fungot is alive! hi fungot!
14:03:58 <fungot> boily: as the parameter ft.
14:04:24 <oerjan> fungot turned into a parameter? :(
14:04:29 <boily> I won myself an FF X2 poster from an... what's the word... auction? yesterday night.
14:07:06 <Taneb> ("raffle" would be «tombola»
14:08:36 <nooodl> /ɑ̃.kɑ̃/ is fun to say
14:10:05 <oerjan> !python print pow(3.14,pow(3.14,3.14))
14:10:07 <boily> the Infamous French Nasal Vowels strike again.
14:10:26 <boily> (speaking of infamous things, what about the II? how's it going?)
14:10:51 <oerjan> it looks to me like pi^pi^pi^pi is just a little too large to check for integership?
14:12:41 <Taneb> oerjan, what would it mean for pi^pi^pi^pi to be an integer?
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14:13:12 <oerjan> Taneb: that it has no fractional part?
14:13:26 <Taneb> Anything interesting beyond that?
14:13:32 <oerjan> also, it's an unknown problem mentioned earlier in the log and on wikipedia's tetration page
14:13:46 <Taneb> It's one of the Everests of maths
14:14:17 <oerjan> yes, although it looks like it's just a _little_ out of reach and moore's law might catch it?
14:15:09 <Taneb> Does the function f(x)=n^^x have a well-defined derivative?
14:15:18 <oerjan> assuming it _isn't_ an integer, that is. if it is it'll probably take some serious proving. but i expect no one suspects that.
14:15:51 <oerjan> Taneb: you first have to define it for non-integers before the question makes sense.
14:16:33 <oerjan> and any such definition would likely be made to have a derivative, and probably analytic.
14:18:31 <oerjan> "At this time there is no commonly accepted solution to the general problem of extending tetration to the real or complex values of n."
14:20:28 <oerjan> "There are two main approaches to extending tetration to real heights, one is based on the regularity requirement, and one is based on the differentiability requirement. These two approaches seem to be so different that they may not be reconciled, as they produce results inconsistent with each other."
14:22:43 <oerjan> it's defined in the article
14:23:02 <oerjan> \left( \frac{d^2}{dx^2}f(x) > 0\right) for all x > 0
14:23:42 <Taneb> Its derivative is always an increasing function for x > 0
14:23:46 <oerjan> that still implies that it's differentiable twice though
14:24:07 <oerjan> but presumably you cannot have that and infinite times differentiable.
14:26:08 <oerjan> "There is a conjecture[10] that there exists a unique function F which is a solution of the equation F(z+1)=exp(F(z)) and satisfies the additional conditions that F(0)=1 and F(z) approaches the fixed points of the logarithm (roughly 0.31813150520476413531 ± 1.33723570143068940890i) as z approaches ±i∞ and that F is holomorphic in the whole complex z-plane, except the part of the real axis at z≤−2."
14:27:24 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetration#Extension_to_complex_heights nice fractally picture
14:30:29 <oerjan> wtf did the logs turn black on grey...
14:34:25 <oerjan> does http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-07-23 look black on grey to anyone else?
14:35:41 <oerjan> it wasn't a few minutes ago...
14:36:26 <oerjan> let's see gregor isn't here, lambdabot isn't working, elliott isn't responding...
14:36:37 <oerjan> shall i just ban everyone and get it over with.
14:36:40 <boily> @tell elliott RESPOND!
14:37:16 <Taneb> oerjan, imo I should be op to create a balance of power
14:37:30 <boily> we should enquire the Voice of Kmc and request an Audience.
14:40:16 <oerjan> gregor has blocked memoserv...
14:41:03 <oerjan> i think today is the annoyance singularity.
14:42:03 <metasepia> EGNT 231420Z 12006KT 080V170 9999 FEW020 23/17 Q1013
14:42:11 <boily> well, at least it's not raining.
14:42:24 <oerjan> thankfully there is tunes
14:43:57 <Taneb> ...that is my weather
14:45:29 <Bike> Fiora: what the hecks.
14:47:08 <Fiora> Bike: a supernovae lends a bunch of kinetic energy to the resulting remnant, so it will often launch the neutron star into a companion red giant
14:47:36 <Fiora> also the original paper is from 1977 @_@
14:47:52 <Fiora> by kip thorne, even!
14:48:24 <Bike> is that a name i should know
14:48:48 <Bike> "he invented astrophysics and is the president of belgium"
14:48:57 <Fiora> I think he's a pretty famous physicist? like, along with hawking and stuff
14:49:32 <oerjan> Bike: sound plausible hth
14:49:58 <oerjan> but won't poor philippe get jealous
14:50:16 <Fiora> I remember his name was on like a book my dad gave me when I was little? I think
14:50:22 <Fiora> ... right! "Blac Holes and Time Warps"
14:51:32 <oerjan> so are you saying a supernova is like a loose cannon
14:51:49 <Bike> aw man his doctoral advisor was fucking wheeler
14:52:47 * oerjan fails not to point out the ambiguous grammar in that
14:52:57 <Fiora> he did like, PBS popularity science stuff, like Sagan did
14:53:38 <Bike> oerjan: yes i am aware
14:54:03 <Taneb> Fucking Wheeler was doctoral advisor to many gifted individuals, despite his unfortunate forename
14:54:08 <Fiora> Bike: wow it is scary to see that like, wheeler's list of doctoral students is like, almost entirely wiki-linked
14:57:04 <boily> Fiora: you are like,-ing a little bit too much by this fine morning, I think.
14:57:14 <Bike> well he is john archibald wheeler.
14:57:36 <boily> oh. in that case, please proceed along.
14:58:40 <Bike> oerjan: re zeta(5): Yeah I was looking this up because a book said we didn't know shit about the odd values, but we actually don't, so
15:00:32 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that the difficult terms cancel each other when it's even, or so.
15:01:32 <Bike> well euler's proof only works for evens is all
15:01:48 <Bike> btw euler's paper is pretty sad
15:02:03 <Bike> they hadn't invented "pi" yet so he's all "the circumference of a circle whose diameter is 1"
15:11:23 <oerjan> "After Jones introduced the Greek letter in 1706, it was not adopted by other mathematicians until Euler started using it, beginning with his 1736 work Mechanica."
15:13:04 <shachaf> Jones, inventor of the Greek letter.
15:21:12 <oerjan> <Bike> isn't elliott in charge of it now? i can pointlessly and unwarrantedly blame him, right <-- CORRECT
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15:22:30 <kappabot> Ambiguous type variable `b0' in the constraints:
15:23:51 <Bike> glad it's not just me who fucks that up ;-(
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15:24:17 <kappabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
15:24:19 <oerjan> and i was even reading the mess you made. hey i can blame you for corrupting me!
15:24:36 <Bike> > let e = exp 1 in e ** e ** e ** e
15:24:50 <shachaf> > (exp . exp . exp . exp) 1
15:24:54 <kappabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
15:25:30 <shachaf> oerjan: what's the biggest number
15:26:10 <Vorpal> Deewiant, Hm, I just tried out cfunge on cygwin, and discovered something weird... It prints floating point numbers using a fixed number of decimals (instead of skipping any trailing zeros as on Linux)
15:26:35 <Vorpal> Not really an issue, since I'm pretty sure FPDP/FPSP doesn't specify formatting details
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15:27:16 <Bike> "not that big right"
15:27:18 <oerjan> so e^e^e^e is presumably within reach
15:27:50 <oerjan> although possibly not with the bots
15:27:58 <Bike> > iterate exp 1
15:28:02 <kappabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
15:28:30 <oerjan> shachaf: it seems to time out rather fast ht
15:29:06 <Bike> wel, (exp exp exp exp 1) is bigger than my 32 bit machine can handle
15:29:41 <Deewiant> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=e^e^e^e
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15:29:56 <Fiora> that's a lot of e's
15:30:57 <Bike> can 64 bit doublees handle 22 bits of exponent
15:30:57 <Vorpal> Deewiant, also there is now a 64-bit setup.exe download on the cygwin website, haven't tried it yet. No idea how stable it is an so on
15:31:03 <oerjan> > (exp . exp $ exp 1)/log 2
15:31:07 <kappabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
15:31:14 <Deewiant> Haven't used cygwin in ages, dunno
15:31:17 <oerjan> shachaf: I AM DISAPPOINTED
15:31:44 <Vorpal> Deewiant, their website isn't exactly clear on stuff like "can you install both side by side?" or "how stable is this?"
15:31:53 <Vorpal> Not clear as in I can't find that info at all
15:32:09 <shachaf> kappabot: @part #esoteric in shame
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15:32:15 <Deewiant> I imagine there's nothing preventing side-by-side installation, just don't have both in PATH and whatever
15:32:39 <Vorpal> I thought cygwin put stuff in the registry
15:33:02 <Deewiant> I've always thought of it as just like any other application
15:34:00 <Vorpal> Deewiant, the output of 3DSP is really hard to read when cygwin prefers 0.000000 instead of 0
15:34:10 <Vorpal> Which is very very strange still
15:34:15 <shachaf> oerjan: kappabot is sad :'(
15:34:17 <oerjan> 23:56:19 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
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15:34:25 <oerjan> wat, i thought elliott had changed that
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16:30:49 <kmc> shachaf: we're discussing whether the Rust unsafe raw pointer type should have mutable and immutable versions, like the other pointer types
16:30:52 <kmc> what do you think
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16:31:43 <shachaf> "immutable" just meaning that you personally can't mutate it, like const in C?
16:34:13 <Gracenotes> such a thing might be used when calling C libraries?
16:34:28 <kmc> but if you import a C function and say that its rust type uses *c_char rather than *mut c_char, that's just unchecked documentation
16:34:48 <Gracenotes> so not a totally opaque pointer, but read-only..
16:34:50 <kmc> the C function could still mutate through that pointer
16:35:06 <shachaf> But you can define an unsafe Rust function and that could presumably be checked, right?
16:35:26 <shachaf> There isn't that much you can do with FFI, unless you're going to parse C headers or something.
16:36:00 <kmc> well Rust does have a thing that parses C headerS: https://github.com/crabtw/rust-bindgen
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16:36:23 <shachaf> Even parsing C headers isn't really checking C functions.
16:37:53 <shachaf> It seems like a useful distinction to make in a type, even if it's weaker than the normal immutable pointer types.
16:51:20 <kmc> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/mfbt/DebugOnly.h neat hack
16:54:41 <shachaf> Hmm, I've seen that before.
16:57:49 <shachaf> Something Mozilla-related, I think.
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17:18:58 <shachaf> kmc: hey, would you care to look at my unbreakable encryption scheme on pastebin.com
17:19:05 <shachaf> it's p. too hard for you tho
17:34:16 <zzo38> What is that logic puzzle called involving the guy who is hanged or shot if he tell the truth or a lie?
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17:58:02 <zzo38> "If the plan involves someone injuring themselves in order play on someone's sympathies to gain an advantage, that's a Wounded Gazelle Gambit." What if the plan involves injuring yourself in order play on someone's lack of sympathies to gain an advantages?
17:59:00 <boily> zzo38: probably a batman gambit.
17:59:41 <zzo38> O, I suppose you are correct.
18:00:05 <zzo38> I still think there are a lot of gambit missing from their list, though.
18:00:22 <boily> and I think they renamed some, too.
18:00:26 <shachaf> zzo38: What about the Indefensible Gambit?
18:00:54 <zzo38> What is it called if you pretend to be someone else pretending to be you? (I don't mean they are pretending to be you; I mean that you are indirectly pretending to be you.)
18:04:27 <boily> I knew it: there's recursive crossdressing, even if that's not *quite* what you want, but close enough for me.
18:05:43 <zzo38> shachaf: Indefensible Gambit?
18:06:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Three undertrumps after an opponent's discard of a Trebled Fromp.
18:07:01 <zzo38> I suppose you shouldn't discard a Trebled Fromp unless you have a good reason to believe that your opponent won't be able to make three undertrumps.
18:07:15 <boily> ~duck runcible spoon
18:07:15 <metasepia> A three-pronged fork, such as a pickle fork, curved like a spoon and having a cutting edge.
18:07:34 <zzo38> But such a gambit is too specific, unless it is widened perhaps.
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18:11:29 <zzo38> Is there any Death Note fan story where someone is tricked into changing their name?
18:12:56 <boily> slash fiction where L must become Ł?
18:13:42 <zzo38> "L" isn't his real name so that doesn't count.
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18:23:34 <zzo38> What is it called if in a Dungeons&Dragons game you try to make saving throw against a spell that although it is allowed you normally don't do so because it is marked as (harmless)?
18:24:10 <zzo38> Deewiant: I don't think so.
18:24:23 <zzo38> I mean where you actually gain an advantage by doing so.
18:24:38 <Gracenotes> how do I remember copious numbers of non-ASCII Unicode symbol codes?
18:25:00 <shachaf> how copious are we talkin'
18:25:21 <Gracenotes> as much as I will need to be a first-class citizen of the <s>world</s> IRC
18:25:24 <zzo38> I have never had the opportunity myself to find it useful, although there was a situation where it would have been useful for one of the other players; I told them but they decided not to use it anyways.
18:25:50 <shachaf> Gracenotes: just memorize them as you use them hth
18:26:26 <zzo38> I have also once been in a situation where the opponent's used a magic item to extremely slow down my team; I figured out how to use that to my advantage, instead of a disadvantage as they intended it to be
18:27:34 <zzo38> What is *this* called?
18:27:54 <shachaf> zzo38: How did you use it to your advantage?
18:28:45 <zzo38> I fired a flaming projectile at them. (See if you understand. If not, I will continue to tell you anyways.)
18:28:50 <kmc> shachaf: i'm not
18:28:54 <kmc> shachaf: I just know this to be true
18:29:32 <shachaf> zzo38: i'm not sure whether i understand!! go on
18:30:09 <zzo38> It give them more than enough opportunity that all of them will certainly get out of the way, so that they won't get hit.
18:30:10 <Gracenotes> what effect does speed have on projectiles and flaming and adjective-noun association
18:30:28 <zzo38> The building behind them was their hideout and was made of wood.
18:30:47 <zzo38> Therefore they quickly burned themself to death.
18:31:50 <shachaf> Couldn't you have fired a flaming projectile at the building anyway?
18:32:03 <shachaf> I mean, it's not as if they'd've stepped in front of it, presumably.
18:32:43 <zzo38> No; they were in the way and if I did they would have known that it is what I was trying to do and somehow stop it. This way I can take advantage of my slowness in order to trick them.
18:34:49 <Gracenotes> So they thought through your capabilities in much less detail (underestimating) that you did?
18:36:08 <zzo38> Or actually my intention, I suppose, is what they didn't think of because I tricked them into believing it was something else.
18:36:27 <shachaf> zzo38: But if you had been fast, would they have managed to get into the way in time?
18:38:23 <zzo38> shachaf: Possibly; I want to consider their possibility that they have some power which I do not know about. Also, if I cancelled their slowness it would have wasted a spell to dispel their magic; the way I am doing requires not casting any spells, just using an arrow.
18:38:53 <shachaf> zzo38: I mean, if you'd've just not been slowed down in the first place.
18:39:03 <shachaf> The question is whether the slowness was really to your advantage.
18:39:33 <Gracenotes> it makes a much better narrative, at least
18:39:52 <zzo38> I understand that, but but yes it was to my advantage; it ensured that I could effectively trick them. (Otherwise it is unknown what the random variables would have in order that the plan might not end up working.)
18:39:54 <Gracenotes> which is partly what RPG-based games let you do
18:40:50 <zzo38> Yes, this is what I like about RPG.
18:42:11 <zzo38> If they hadn't used magic, I probably would have needed to use magic in order to beat them, but since they did use magic I did not have to.
18:43:41 <zzo38> I could have used magic, but not only might they have countered it but there are saving throws and stuff, and it would use up the spell, and I didn't want to waste it; there is also the factor of false intention so even ignoring these things magic would have been worse anyways.
18:45:52 <zzo38> So in other words, the slowness spell they cast ended up greatly diminishing their chances of winning.
18:46:43 <zzo38> Do you know when Washizu said after every two hanchan only he has the choice to decide to continue or to stop, and Akagi said that stupid move would end up defeating him?
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18:48:26 <zzo38> (This is a part of a story Fukumoto wrote, called "Akagi".)
18:50:44 <zzo38> There may be some other stories with a similar idea to what I described with the slowness, although they might have been tricked into activating the power in the first place. In my case, there was no such trick.
18:50:48 <tswett> how do i evaluate combinators help
18:51:09 <nortti> http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/26535.html
18:51:54 <tswett> So in Haskell, I've defined a type representing an expression built out of a certain set of combinators (Apply, Compose, Flip, Pair, Uncurry, WithPair, Fst, Snd, Lft, Rgt, Case, Gimme, Trash, Cancel), and I know what the semantics of each of these combinators ought to be.
18:52:04 <tswett> I'd like to write a function that takes an expression and reduces it.
18:52:21 <tswett> Yep, they're typed nicely.
18:52:51 <Gracenotes> so these combinators are constructors?
18:52:53 <zzo38> (In Akagi's case, it is unknown. He did increase the stakes, which Washizu considered stupid and Washizu's security guards agreed that since Akagi did that, that Washizu is correct in saying that only he has the right to decide when to stop after every two hanchan.)
18:53:43 <Gracenotes> well, you can have an eval function Expr -> ResultType, or Expr -> Reader Env ResultType if you need that
18:53:58 <kmc> nortti: interesting
18:54:06 <tswett> I think Expr a -> a is what I want in this case.
18:54:45 <kmc> when you want things like that, you usually need Expr to be a GADT
18:55:18 <Gracenotes> I take it you've seen this: http://vimeo.com/12208838
18:55:19 <tswett> So, uh, lemme think. There are certain ways of rewriting an expression. I think I want to use non-strict evaluation. So this means finding the topmost possible rewrite and making it, over and over, until there are no more rewrites.
18:56:09 <Gracenotes> do you want to do normal order or also with sharing?
18:56:49 <tswett> I don't think I want to do anything special for sharing.
18:57:06 <tswett> I'll just hope, perhaps falsely, that Haskell will take care of that for me.
18:57:21 <zzo38> I expected it to be a GADT, since you said the types are correct
18:58:23 <Gracenotes> tswett: for a lot of the combinators, how to write it should be clear... sometimes you will need an environment; sometimes you will need both an environment and a store (with mutation)
18:58:38 <tswett> Right, lemme try just diving in.
18:58:56 <Gracenotes> possibly a runtime datatype to be denoted within the environment
19:01:06 <tswett> So here's the algorithm I'd use naively:
19:02:05 <tswett> To evaluate f(x), first check whether it's top-level rewritable; if it is, rewrite it and evaluate it again; otherwise, evaluate f yielding f', then evaluate x yielding x', then evaluate f'(x').
19:02:12 <tswett> But that algorithm will never terminate.
19:02:39 <tswett> I think I need to distinguish between things that are fully reduced and things that aren't fully reduced.
19:02:45 <Gracenotes> evaluating x without calling if is strict evaluation
19:05:46 <Gracenotes> although what you described is good for strict application; evaluating f'(x') means calling f' if it is callable, or giving up if it isn't
19:07:28 <zzo38> A while ago in Dungeons&Dragons game we went to the demon's castle in order to try to beat the demon. I found that it was abandoned, except for a few vampires guarding one of the exits, an invoice for moving their posessions to another castle, and some silverware.
19:07:35 <tswett> Maybe what I want to do is to write a function that performs just one reduction step.
19:08:01 <boily> zzo38: vampires and silverware???
19:08:08 <zzo38> Immediately when I saw this I suspected that they are trying to do a Kansas City Shuffle on us (although at the time, I didn't know what it was called). I still do not know whether or not this is correct.
19:08:27 <zzo38> boily: The vampires were guarding an exit; an entirely different room to the silverware.
19:08:41 <zzo38> But I suppose I can see what you might be getting at...
19:09:50 <Gracenotes> tswett: maybe you might start with a simpler language, like lambda calculus
19:09:52 <zzo38> I suspect they are trying to make us think that they think their vampires can beat us, but this isn't the Kansas City Shuffle I am talking about, and it has nothing to do with the silverware.
19:11:01 <boily> looks like their vampires are different.
19:11:23 <Gracenotes> I dunno. Otherwise, start with eval (Constr ...) env = ..., and recursion is your friend
19:11:28 <zzo38> boily: I don't know because I didn't try using the silverware against them.
19:11:47 <zzo38> (I actually didn't think of that, but even if I did I probably would have tried something else anyways.)
19:12:17 <tswett> I think I did this for Unlambda once.
19:12:51 <zzo38> I ended up keeping the silverware in case we need the metal for something else later on.
19:13:32 <Gracenotes> unlambda also doesn't need an environment; it's a bit pathological
19:13:55 <boily> zzo38: that's what we usually do when we play d&d: loot everything, and I mean *everything*.
19:14:14 <boily> (and with proper creativity, you can cut a steak from just about any random material and/or monster)
19:14:45 <kmc> "error: not all control paths return a value" is a somewhat poor error message for "you shouldn't have a semicolon on the last line of your function"
19:14:59 <Gracenotes> although, not weird; it's how Miranda worked (very enhanced SKI calculus)
19:15:06 <tswett> "I loot every real number." "Sorry, you can only take countably many actions in a finite amount of time."
19:15:41 <kmc> Gracenotes: really? elaborate?
19:15:50 <kmc> is this Miranda the predecessor of Haskell?
19:15:56 <boily> tswett: not a problem. with enough charisma and an infinite line of peasants, you can achieve FTL travel.
19:16:19 <tswett> Does charisma affect the DM?
19:16:24 <shachaf> kmc: rustc errors are not so great right now
19:16:30 <tswett> If I have a charisma of 85, can I become the DM?
19:16:32 <kmc> maybe i should fix it "patches welcome"
19:16:33 <Gracenotes> yes. It took inspiration from SASL in compiling lambda calculus down to combinators
19:16:33 <shachaf> did you see the Y thing i made
19:17:02 <shachaf> i was vaguely surprised that it worked
19:17:19 <boily> tswett: you must bribe them with valuable trinkets and sacred dice.
19:17:53 <kmc> shachaf: no
19:18:34 <shachaf> http://shachaf.net/curry.rs.txt
19:18:45 <Gracenotes> kmc: in addition to SKI, it has B, C, P, U, E, Y... etc.
19:18:48 <shachaf> someone came to #rust asking about how to make it work
19:19:51 <kmc> I wrote the Y combinator in C++ once
19:19:55 <kmc> this is noisier ;P
19:19:58 <kmc> though fewer lines
19:20:39 <zzo38> boily: I rarely loot anything, but do loot these kind of things.
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19:21:06 <shachaf> this is just \f -> (\x -> f (unRec x x)) (\x -> f (unRec x x))
19:21:12 <boily> reminds me, I promised to someone on this channel a long time ago the journals of our quests.
19:21:16 <shachaf> > (\f -> (\x -> f (unRec x x)) (\x -> f (unRec x x))) (1:)
19:21:22 <kappabot> Not in scope: `unRec'Not in scope: `unRec'
19:21:27 <zzo38> boily: Do you have it?
19:21:47 <shachaf> > (\f -> (\x -> f (outR x x)) (\x -> f (outR x x))) (1:)
19:21:47 <boily> zzo38: nah, at home. I think I have some of them in my inbox...
19:21:51 <kmc> shachaf: I hear @fn may disappear soon anyway
19:21:54 <kappabot> The lambda expression `\ x -> f (L.outR x x)' has one argument,
19:22:29 <shachaf> kmc: what will we do instead!!
19:22:40 <zzo38> Actually as it turns out the number of human characters we had in our party was equal to the number of forks, so I gave them all away so each got one fork, so that they might eat.
19:22:55 <zzo38> But we can use them for other purposes too if it would help to do so.
19:23:03 <tswett> Is it impossible to eat without a fork?
19:23:10 <zzo38> Some of the soldiers have since died so I got their forks back.
19:23:25 <zzo38> tswett: I don't think so, but I would expect they don't want to eat by hand.
19:23:29 <shachaf> > (\f -> (\x -> f (outR x x)) (Rec (\x -> f (outR x x)))) (1:)
19:23:33 <kappabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Rec'
19:23:39 <shachaf> > (\f -> (\x -> f (outR x x)) (InR (\x -> f (outR x x)))) (1:)
19:23:43 <kappabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
19:23:54 <shachaf> > (\f -> (\x -> f (outR x x)) (InR (\x -> f (outR x x)))) (1:)
19:23:54 <tswett> There, I've implemented everything but Cancel.
19:23:58 <kappabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
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19:26:09 <tswett> Which is the crappy thing to implement, because its semantics are Cancel f = (evaluate 'f g' and wait for g to be applied to some value x, and return x).
19:26:21 <boily> zzo38: I have an interesting sample. would you like the missive to be joyously sent by e-mail?
19:26:43 <boily> (I really can't garantee your understanding, unless you speak a very weird variety of French.)
19:26:58 <zzo38> boily: No; I don't speak French very well at all.
19:27:02 <kmc> shachaf: @~fn maybe? I'm not sure
19:27:56 <boily> quelqu'un ici qui parle français à part moi?
19:28:21 <zzo38> I don't loot everything; in fact I rarely loot money. I also found a place where someone kept everything including the stuff they stole from us; I took nothing except the things they have taken from us.
19:29:47 <zzo38> I am not the kind of thief.
19:35:12 <shachaf> typically i either turn it off entirely or leave it in regular mode
19:36:28 <tswett> So I'm still trying to think how to implement Cancel...
19:37:20 <tswett> One thing you could do is grab the context and let g be that context. But the context has the wrong type; the context could return anything, whereas f expects something of type Bottom.
19:37:48 <tswett> Maybe I should say "continuation" instead of "context".
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19:54:42 <zzo38> What is it called when you write an encrypted message containing many true things but the crucial things are lies, in the expectation that your opponent's will catch you, steal the message (that they thought you were trying to deliver), and hire their team to crack the code...
19:55:24 <Bike> usual counterintelligence practice :p
19:56:22 <zzo38> What is it called when you take this further; you expect that they expect you to do this?
19:56:54 <Bike> a Princess Bride scene
19:57:27 <kmc> speaking of counterintelligence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bertram was pretty badass
19:57:43 <kmc> incl http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bertram#Double_bluff
19:57:47 <boily> you can canary your messages, do classic traffic analysis, then expound on the breaches of information.
19:59:21 <Bike> kmc: that's some surreal shit.
20:02:07 <zzo38> Double bluff? Akagi uses quintuple bluffs.
20:02:40 <Bike> try to keep up, rommel-kun
20:03:44 <zzo38> I do not know if the demon and those who work for him are expecting that I am expecting it to be a Kansas City Shuffle.
20:05:09 <boily> let's consult the Old Wise One...
20:05:12 <metasepia> Okay ... I'm going home to write the "I HATE RUBIK's CUBE HANDBOOK FOR
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20:09:52 <zzo38> Does an anticipated Kansas City Shuffle have a special name?
20:10:51 <kmc> 1,500 tanks fighting in the middle of the desert
20:10:57 <kmc> it's insane to think about
20:11:31 <boily> zzo38: probably a violin scam, but I'm not sure.
20:12:01 <Bike> kmc: have you read "Losing the War" (it's an essay about WWII and being insane)
20:12:08 <zzo38> kmc: Are you insane to think about 1,500 tanks fighting in the middle of the desert?
20:12:16 <kmc> Bike: maybe
20:12:21 <kmc> zzo38: maybe
20:12:28 <Bike> http://leesandlin.com/articles/LosingTheWar.htm
20:12:30 <Bike> it's pretty good.
20:12:49 <Bike> there's a section on war reporters talking about things being "eerie" or "surreal" and such
20:12:55 <zzo38> Am I simultaneously sane and insane?
20:13:13 <boily> zzo38: you are under the illusion that you are zzo38. everything is fine.
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20:13:52 <zzo38> I don't think being under such illusion makes everything to be fine...
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20:28:42 <Fiora> Bike: so like, I like how wikipedia's list of stellar remnants is like
20:28:53 <Fiora> "white dwarf, neutron star, black hole.... EF Eridani B"
20:29:03 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_Eridani it's apparently so unusual that they don't have a name for it
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20:42:06 <boily> `learn eridanipoid is a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants.
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20:42:38 <Bike> you're welcome, astronomers.
20:43:15 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epsilon_Eridani_in_fiction
20:43:45 <Bike> what's this thing made out of exactly
20:44:05 <Bike> it's a twentieth the size of the sun, has no fusion...
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20:45:45 <Fiora> http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0001183 maybe this might have it?
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20:47:42 <Fiora> sorry for all the nerding out about astronomy things >_<
20:47:48 <Bike> i wish someone would call /me/ a magnetic cataclysmic binary
20:47:53 <Bike> that's true love
20:48:19 <Fiora> that sounds more like a fat joke
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20:49:16 <Bike> i am not good enough at astrophysics to understand how that could possibly be a fat oke
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20:50:12 <Fiora> well, like, a cataclysmic binary is one where a big star orbits a white dwarf that's sucking off mass
20:50:25 <Fiora> and keeps nova-ing as the mass accretes, then flash-fuses, and repeats, I think?
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20:51:23 <Fiora> so um. I guess it means you're one big star and one small star, and you're exchanging mass, and the small one keeps exploding
20:51:28 <Fiora> I really don't know what this would imply I guess
20:52:07 <Bike> sounds like an exciting thing to be called still!
20:53:17 <boily> “baby, let's exchange mass an go nova”
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21:31:34 <Bike> http://www.cell.com/current-biology/retrieve/pii/S096098221300835X finally biologists speak up on the #drugz #warz
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21:32:59 <kmc> war, uh, yeah, what is it good for, misappropriating public funds
21:33:36 <Bike> that doesn't scan :c
21:33:43 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L2Gve7oh_4
21:38:23 <Bike> i can't decide if the best part of that is sam and max's faces, or the pathetic little shuffly kicks in front of the flag
21:39:03 <Gracenotes> damn it! foiled by having to put -lxxx as the last arguments of gcc/the gcc-compatible clang frontend.. again!
21:41:43 <fizzie> kmc: Thank you for that; now I've got the Cannon Fodder intro song looping in my head. ("war / never been so much fun / ... / go to your brother / kill him with your gun / leave him lying in his uniform / dying in the sun / ...")
21:42:44 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQhLRr0HRGI and so on.
21:45:56 <oerjan> <tswett> Which is the crappy thing to implement, because its semantics are Cancel f = (evaluate 'f g' and wait for g to be applied to some value x, and return x). <-- isn't that just callCC
21:46:28 <tswett> oerjan: sounds a lot like it. It's callCC with the type ((a -> Bot) -> Bot) -> a.
21:47:21 <oerjan> so i'd expect you need CPS
21:47:39 <oerjan> (or a Cont monad, which is just indirect CPS)
21:48:05 <oerjan> or possibly just ErrorT
21:48:19 <tswett> Yeah, with Cont, wouldn't r have to be Bot?
21:49:16 <shachaf> what's Foo such that class Functor f => Applicative f where applicative :: Foo f a -> f a
21:49:28 <tswett> callCC :: MonadCont m => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
21:50:51 <oerjan> hm ok not the same type
21:51:24 <tswett> It looks similar to this, however:
21:51:25 <tswett> shift :: MonadDelimitedCont p s m => p b -> ((m a -> m b) -> m b) -> m a
21:52:59 <oerjan> shachaf: strč prst skrz krk
21:54:41 <tswett> No, I don't think I could. There's the same problem again: a has to be Bot, so you can't return anything through it except for Bot.
21:55:05 <oerjan> shachaf: you are lost in a maze of unpronouncable syllables. dvořák is here.
21:55:43 <Bike> Fiora: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2013.03.057 some jellyfish have neural organization without cephalization
21:56:36 <tswett> Hm. I can make Bot a type variable instead of a constant.
21:57:09 <oerjan> tswett: what about Bot = forall a. a
21:57:37 <tswett> oerjan: you still can't return anything through it, because you can't convert stuff to forall a. a.
21:58:07 <tswett> Can you write id using only compose and flip?
21:58:11 <oerjan> i suppose you should ask someone who actually knows about typed continuation stuff hth
21:58:12 <shachaf> help what's the problem at hand
21:58:21 <shachaf> not that i know about typed continuations
21:58:29 <shachaf> what's the thing you're trying to do
21:58:47 <kappabot> Perhaps you meant `const' (imported from Prelude)
21:58:51 <shachaf> :t Control.Monad.Cont.cont
21:58:53 <kappabot> Couldn't find qualified module.
21:58:54 <oerjan> tswett: flip . flip hth
21:59:01 <shachaf> cont :: forall a r. ((a -> r) -> r) -> Cont r a
21:59:06 <kappabot> forall a b c. (b -> a -> c) -> b -> a -> c
21:59:21 <tswett> Mm, its type isn't general enough.
21:59:30 <shachaf> your type isn't general enough :'(
21:59:31 <tswett> shachaf: well, uh, I have this thing, and I'm trying to make it work.
22:00:00 <tswett> http://lpaste.net/91160
22:00:14 <tswett> I know, some of those equations are kind of atrocious.
22:00:26 <tswett> Well, no. These equations are pretty nice.
22:00:32 <tswett> Some of my *old* equations were pretty atrocious.
22:00:35 <tswett> "step (Apply (Apply Uncurry f) (Apply (Apply Pair x) y)) = Just (Apply (Apply f x) y)"
22:00:39 <oerjan> tswett: i am not sure if you can construct something that takes only one argument
22:00:51 <tswett> I'll just add id as another combinator.
22:02:11 <tswett> So, Cancel is supposed to pretty much be callCC.
22:02:30 <tswett> "Apply Cancel (Apply (Apply Flip Id) Gimme)" should eventually reduce to Gimme.
22:02:52 <tswett> shachaf: does not exist?
22:02:58 <shachaf> double negation elimination hth
22:03:04 <tswett> Yes, that's exactly what it is.
22:03:10 <shachaf> that's not the same as callcc
22:03:13 <Bike> directed shotgun proteomics
22:03:15 <shachaf> (though you can write one in terms of the other)
22:03:25 <tswett> So yeah. I'm trying to figure out how to write double negation elimination.
22:04:36 <oerjan> tswett: one point is that you don't want the actual underlying type to be a -> Bot, since that's impossible
22:04:47 <oerjan> you want a -> m Bot or something
22:05:14 <shachaf> oerjan: well, this isn't really an "underlying type"
22:05:33 <tswett> So "step (Apply Cancel f)" should be all like "hey dudes, what's the continuation?", and then, like, it ought to just reify the continuation and make Apply f g be the ultimate result, aye?
22:05:34 <shachaf> i mean, it's just the argument to the gadt. it's not "contained in"" the gadt
22:05:59 <oerjan> shachaf: i understood his combinators were typed.
22:06:17 <tswett> The combinators are indeed typed, though the types currently have nothing to do with any underlying representations.
22:07:29 <tswett> Y'all can see me now 'cause you don't see with your eye; you perceive with your mind. HTH
22:07:37 <tswett> All right, what were we doing?
22:08:26 <Bike> if this just descended into singing gorillaz off-key i'd be ok with that.
22:08:26 <tswett> I could have something that says Coerce :: Expr a -> Expr b.
22:08:36 <tswett> Is it possible to rap off-key?
22:08:41 <Gracenotes> everyone has perfect pitch on the internet
22:08:48 <Bike> you fucking watch me, i'll mess it up somehow
22:09:23 <tswett> But no, uh, continuations.
22:10:22 <tswett> step (Apply Cancel f) cont = Just (Apply f cont)??????????
22:10:53 <oerjan> tswett: i don't see how you can implement your g as something not containing a continuation
22:10:59 <shachaf> i m not quite sure what you 're after here
22:11:03 <tswett> Yeah, it's certainly going to have a continuation.
22:11:05 <Bike> containuiation
22:11:17 <tswett> I'm pretty definitely after something involving continuations.
22:11:59 <tswett> The question is how to implement this double negation elimination combinator, presumably using continuations.
22:14:17 <shachaf> kmc: i keep thinking rusti is a swiss potato dish
22:14:21 <tswett> Okay, uhh. So we have Apply Cancel (Apply (Apply Flip Id) Gimme). So f = Apply (Apply Flip Id) Gimme, and the continuation is the identity function. So we can just reduce Apply f Id, and there we go.
22:14:48 <tswett> So apparently the continuation needs to be given as an Expr, not as a function.
22:14:54 <shachaf> oerjan: there's a rust-evaluating bot in #rust called rusti hth
22:14:55 <kmc> 15:14 < strcat> rusti: let b = 5 as bool; (b, b == true)
22:14:55 <kmc> 15:14 -rusti:#rust- (true, false)
22:15:04 <kmc> best boolean type ever
22:15:08 <tswett> Or I guess it could be given as a function, as long as we can somehow turn that function into an Expr.
22:15:12 <kmc> shachaf: why would it be a swiss potato dish
22:15:14 <shachaf> km: is it unsafecoercing.........................
22:15:23 <oerjan> tswett: rødgrød med fløde you uneducated dolt
22:15:24 <kmc> not exactly
22:15:24 <shachaf> kmc: because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rösti
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22:15:54 <Gracenotes> let's use integer equality on booleans, what could go wrong
22:16:11 <shachaf> kmc: rösti is delicious hth
22:16:11 <tswett> Let's say that every type is a subtype of Bool.
22:16:14 <Gracenotes> let's coerce numeric types, what could go wrong
22:16:17 <shachaf> oerjan can confirm (rightjan?)
22:16:26 <kmc> google wants to translate rødgrød as rødgrød, I guess that's fair
22:16:53 <Bike> does rusti actually use notices
22:17:06 <Bike> most shocking part of that exchange imo
22:17:09 <oerjan> tswett: oh i'm thinking, your continuation for a type a should be a -> Expr, since you are doing steps
22:17:09 <shachaf> because rusti is a cool bot who follows the spec
22:17:21 <shachaf> i wish i was as cool as rusti
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22:17:44 <Bike> segfaulting could be kinda rough yeah
22:17:45 <oerjan> tswett: um your step function needs to include the _next_ continuation in its result as well
22:17:54 <shachaf> kmc: It looks like it is pretty much unsafeCoercing?
22:18:23 <oerjan> otherwise you wouldn't know how do do the next step...
22:19:34 <shachaf> oerjan: do you mind if i use ø to mean the empty set
22:19:49 <shachaf> and they look p. much the same
22:21:17 <shachaf> why do people upvote the wrong answers on stack overflow
22:21:49 <shachaf> why do i have 20 points for answering "is putstrln thread-safe" with "yes"
22:22:04 <Bike> god is real and hates you, hth.
22:22:29 <Bike> also abu ghraib got military assaulted and a bunch of guys are out now.
22:22:37 <oerjan> shachaf: it's been too long since i tasted rösti, i've forgotten
22:24:56 <shachaf> oerjan: wow that's not v. swiss of you
22:24:57 <oerjan> tswett: step (Cancel f, cont) = Just (Apply f (ContE cont), cont) or something
22:25:07 <oerjan> i am indeed not very swiss
22:26:42 <shachaf> oerjan: did you remember that you were swiss
22:26:54 <oerjan> i think the tricky part is what step (Apply (ContE cont) ...) should return
22:27:11 <shachaf> oerjan: you remind me of swiss cheese hth
22:27:15 <shachaf> not that that's use in rösti
22:27:56 <oerjan> that's the step that requires changing the next step continuation.
22:28:50 <oerjan> shachaf: are you saying i am a very holy person?
22:31:04 <shachaf> I said it in Hebrew, I said it in Dutch, / I said it in German and Greek, / But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) / That English is what you speak.
22:31:30 <shachaf> (and maybe other languages?? what languages do you speak)
22:31:40 <shachaf> (are any of them hebrew/dutch/german/greek)
22:31:51 <shachaf> (i think if you speak english+german you speak dutch automatically)
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22:38:24 <oerjan> shachaf: i can do a little german
22:38:45 <shachaf> how much on a scale of 1 to 13
22:38:52 <oerjan> from there to pronouncing dutch is another galaxy.
22:39:25 <shachaf> yes but i have no evidence you know how to pronounce english either
22:39:43 <oerjan> well i had 4 years (i think) of german in school. i just haven't used it much since.
22:40:19 <oerjan> (also one year of french)
22:40:21 <shachaf> hm i had a few years of english in school
22:40:46 <shachaf> all before grade 6 though...............
22:41:38 <oerjan> shachaf: i have been known to be understood vocally by native english speakers.
22:42:22 <oerjan> including giving a few presentations
22:42:27 <shachaf> how vocally are we talkin'
22:42:39 <shachaf> I REALLY UNDERSTAND THIS OERJAN FELLOW 100%
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22:58:12 <olsner> why do your ears hurt?
22:58:27 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:00:09 <oerjan> BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE SHOUTING TOO VOCALLY HTH
23:00:22 <olsner> STOP LISTENING TO THEM HTH
23:01:41 <olsner> I think you mean *un*possible
23:22:12 <Bike> http://nsaunders.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/interestingly-the-sentence-adverbs-of-pubmed-central/ btw this is great
23:23:53 <Fiora> http://nsaunders.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/adverbsopencloud20.png?w=300&h=300 wow
23:23:59 <Fiora> this article is great, thanks~
23:25:03 <Fiora> "bmc immunology" is the most interesting journal
23:25:12 <Fiora> "Nature" has the most remarkable results
23:25:24 <Fiora> "plos med" and "bioinformatics" are the most unfortunate
23:26:52 <Fiora> Grossly.... Histologically... Immunohistochemically... Ultrastructurally...
23:27:04 <Fiora> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3173291/ help I am laughing at abstracts of papers I can't understand
23:28:07 <Fiora> bike what have you dooone
23:28:08 <Bike> wow, that's just not good writing.
23:28:57 <Bike> «You might imagine that very long adverbs stand a good chance of being ugly. Let’s find the longest: "electronmicroscopically". You'd be correct.»
23:30:38 <shachaf> that's too long for a double dactyl :'(
23:31:08 <Bike> how about ethnopharmacologically
23:31:28 <Fiora> what does that even mean @_@
23:31:47 <Bike> probably related to ethnomedicine
23:32:00 <Bike> which is where you ask people which plants they use to cure colds
23:33:02 <oerjan> there ethno medicine for cold
23:33:14 <Bike> as in ethnology
23:34:18 <Bike> the study of cultures, which frequently means ethnic groups
23:36:47 <Bike> i have a little book on ethnomedicine, it's pretty cool, they lived with dominicans (as in dominica, not the dominican republic) for a while
23:37:15 <Bike> one of the "traditional healers" was a guy who'd gotten a book on identifying plants in high school and thought it would be neat do try and cure diseases like his grandparents did
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23:58:55 <Bike> oerjan: oh, duh, you were right, it's an alternating series and the signs only cancel for squares
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00:08:53 <Bike> @oeis 6,90,945,9450,93555
00:08:54 <kappabot> Denominators of zeta(2n)/Pi^(2n).
00:08:54 <kappabot> [6,90,945,9450,93555,638512875,18243225,325641566250,38979295480125,15313294...
00:29:12 <shachaf> you know a misspelling is good when it makes you forget the standard spelling for a little while
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00:51:42 <Fiora> relatedly a friend was talking about a video game she was playing and mispelled "dropship" as "dorpship" and now neither of us can think of it any other way
00:51:49 <Fiora> and she's now talking all about flying around her dorpship
00:52:14 <Bike> now i wish i had a dorpship, gee thanks
00:53:12 <Fiora> and like every single time I type it I giggle because "dorpship"
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01:19:28 <Bike> http://www.sciencemag.org/content/334/6055/521.abstract "a refreshingly honest first/last authorship statement"
01:20:21 <shachaf> what about all the other authorships
01:21:00 <shachaf> btw would you really authorship Robert W. Meredith and William J. Murphy
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01:41:53 <tswett> Mmm maybe I'm going to have the return type be ContT (Expr bot bot) Maybe (Expr bot a).
01:44:04 <tswett> Of Hebrew, Dutch, German, and Greek, German is best the language I speak.
01:44:48 <tswett> It is bottom, as in the sense of the... uh, which one.
01:45:17 <tswett> Linear multiplicative falsity.
01:45:19 <Bike> the caudal type
01:45:27 <shachaf> Gracenotes: imo memorize the hunting of the snark hth
01:46:11 <Gracenotes> too many acronyms, I stab all of you in the face over the internet
01:46:19 <shachaf> zomg the hunting of the snark is about mnoqy????
01:46:49 <shachaf> "It's excessively awkward to mention it now--
01:46:49 <shachaf> As I think I've already remarked."
01:46:49 <shachaf> And the man they called "Hi!" replied, with a sigh,
01:46:49 <shachaf> "I informed you the day we embarked.
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01:47:03 <shachaf> He would answer to "Hi!" or to any loud cry,
01:47:03 <shachaf> Such as "Fry me!" or "Fritter my wig!"
01:47:13 <tswett> Is that the poem that has the thing about cabbages and kings?
01:47:31 <shachaf> tswett: no, that's The Walrus and the Carpenter
01:48:06 <shachaf> neither one was an appendix
01:48:21 <tswett> - ´ - ´ - ´ - ´ / - ´ - ´ - ´ hth
01:49:12 <shachaf> h t h t h t h t / h t h t h t hth
01:50:13 <Gracenotes> in any case, I wasn't there to experience the original formats in which the poems/books/etc. were released
01:50:27 <tswett> hhtthtthtttthhhhhhthhthththttthttthtttththhthttthhtttthttthhth
01:50:35 <tswett> (everyone in this channel should instantly recognize that sequence)
01:50:55 <Gracenotes> ah. no, I was a bit confused, in the printing I read Jabberwocky was an appendix to the Snark
01:51:01 <Bike> i refuse to recognize that sequence
01:51:06 <tswett> @oeis 1,1,0,0,1,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1
01:51:15 <shachaf> that makes a bit more sense at least
01:51:21 <kappabot> Expansion of Pi in base 2 (or, binary expansion of Pi).
01:51:21 <kappabot> [1,1,0,0,1,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,0,0...
01:51:22 <Bike> Fiora: http://arxiv.org/abs/1307.5899 a thing
01:51:30 <Bike> why would i recognize that, imo
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01:51:55 <shachaf> imo why would it recognize you
01:52:14 <tswett> Bike: because you've seen it 888,888 times before.
01:52:21 <tswett> That's an ordered pair.
01:52:33 <Gracenotes> at some point this channel is going to devolve into 'no u' 'no u' 'no u' 'no u'
01:52:45 <tswett> Gracenotes: no it isn't!
01:52:54 <tswett> I'm reasonably certain it won't, but I could be convinced that I'm wrong!
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01:54:03 <Gracenotes> Trying to port GHC over to a platform without libc
01:54:29 <Gracenotes> And compiling to LLVM bitcode (no native stuff allowed)
01:55:00 <shachaf> hey, Bike, tell me about adjunctions.............between groups!!
01:55:08 <Bike> i don't know shit about adjunctions
01:56:15 <shachaf> Bike: well an adjunction is a pair of functions "i.e. group homomorphisms in this case"
01:56:24 <shachaf> such that when you compose them one way you get a monad
01:56:33 <shachaf> and actually you get a monad the other way too "because groups are weird hth"
01:57:00 <Bike> i'm not sure this explanation is going to h anything at all
01:57:21 <shachaf> well i'd give you a serious explanation but i d. you care
01:57:23 <tswett> You're not sure t explanation is going to h anything at all hth.
01:57:34 <Bike> what's this explanation then
01:57:36 <shachaf> but maybe if i talk t. myself i'll figure it out
01:58:16 <shachaf> Bike: the problem is that there are "like a billion definitions of" adjunctions
01:58:58 <Bike> probably the best one for your purposes.
01:59:10 <shachaf> let's say you have two groups
01:59:15 <shachaf> help what letters do you use for groups
01:59:27 <shachaf> i can't say G and H because the functor are going to be called F and G.............
02:00:03 <shachaf> and two homomorphisms F : D -> C, G : C -> D
02:00:27 <shachaf> so we know that G . F is an inner automorphism at least
02:01:06 <shachaf> Gracenotes can help me imo
02:02:55 <tswett> Hm. Maybe I don't want ContT Maybe; maybe I want MaybeT Cont.
02:03:14 <tswett> (Now someone will say "maybe MaybeT Maybe hth")
02:03:28 <Bike> no, why would anyone say that.
02:03:34 <tswett> So what's the idea behind the two?
02:03:37 <shachaf> ok so we have eps : FG -> 1_C and eta : 1_D -> GF
02:03:40 <tswett> Bike: maybe MaybeT Maybe hth.
02:03:52 <shachaf> tswett..................................................................................... .
02:04:05 -!- kmc has set topic: Mr. Burbujas Fan Club | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
02:04:20 <Bike> mister who now
02:04:35 <tswett> ………………………………………………………………………….
02:04:36 <shachaf> kmc: hey, can i be in the Mr. Burbujas Fan Club
02:04:50 <kmc> http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/assets_c/2009/08/rsz_1intact-thumb-500x374.jpg
02:04:55 <kmc> shachaf: uh you already are, see /topic
02:05:07 <tswett> All right, uh, what was I doing.
02:05:56 <Bike> wow i'm definitely in that fan club
02:06:14 <shachaf> Bike: have you even seen the new mr burbujas though
02:06:26 <shachaf> kmc do you have a picture!!!!
02:06:46 <kmc> of Mr Burbujas 2.0
02:06:54 <kmc> not a good one
02:07:33 <kmc> you can kind of see him here to the right of the door http://s3-media4.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/cxGNWxXViuddaSWubHoL6Q/l.jpg
02:07:40 <shachaf> as your attorney i advise you to go take a good picture of Mr Burbujas 2.0
02:07:40 <tswett> Oh, it must be Burbujas as in /buɾˈbuxas/.
02:07:48 <kmc> anthropomorphic washing machine with a three-toothed lamprey mouth and a top hat
02:11:33 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaseysmith/7218024116/sizes/l/
02:13:40 <kmc> how did you find
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02:13:56 <Gracenotes> help how do I cross-compile ghc to a potato
02:14:57 <shachaf> ok so as i was saying, we have two natural transformations, eps : FG -> 1 and eta : 1 -> GF
02:16:07 <shachaf> which means that for x : D, eta*x = GF(x)*eta
02:16:49 <shachaf> wait does that whole "deal" still work
02:17:03 <shachaf> is what i should have said
02:17:25 <shachaf> and for x : C, eps*FG(x) = x*eps
02:17:36 <shachaf> and then there are the laws
02:18:16 <shachaf> wait none of what i said makes any sense whatsoever
02:18:30 <shachaf> ok maybe i should actually work this out for myself
02:19:47 <Bike> this photograph http://whatsinjohnsfreezer.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/creepy-proboscis-1.jpg
02:19:50 <shachaf> oh, no, what i said makes perfect sense
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02:23:29 <shachaf> Bike: oh, maybe the hom-set definition would be way simpler here
02:25:35 <Bike> hm, what's the math channel on freenode and does it suck
02:27:50 <shachaf> have you considered that one-oobjec
02:27:57 <shachaf> have you considered that one-object categories are weird
02:28:08 <Bike> aren't monoids one-object categories
02:28:08 <shachaf> it's like trying to put together a puzzle where any piece fits any other piece
02:28:26 <Bike> as well as groups and all those other "normal math things"
02:29:21 <Bike> if history is any indication those things are "pretty weird"
02:29:35 <Fiora> Bike: oooh. that article looks interesting
02:30:10 <Bike> " Perf. comparisons with in-order complete binary implicit trees makes me (and caches) cry :'(" was the comment with the link
02:30:17 <Bike> i don't even know what "perf" stands for here man
02:30:43 <tswett> Hum de hum what the hell am I doing de dum. I'm writing this thing that was originally Expr bot a -> Maybe (Expr bot a) but is slowly getting more and more complicated for some reason.
02:30:58 <tswett> Bike: probably "perfluorocarbon".
02:33:38 <shachaf> ok so we have a natural isomorphism phi : C(F-,-) ~> D(-,G-)
02:33:47 <shachaf> maybe that should be written <~>
02:34:55 <shachaf> btw every function is either linear or exponential
02:36:16 <shachaf> anyway so both of those functors are what, : D^op x C -> Set? or what
02:36:53 <shachaf> that doesn't make sense....help
02:37:27 <shachaf> Bike: maybe try efnet #math
02:37:33 <shachaf> monochrom is in there so how bad can it be
02:37:48 <shachaf> but, really, monochrom is great
02:37:51 <Bike> i was just asking because i was going off topic explaining lambda calculus, and thought i would be better off talking elsewhere
02:37:55 <Bike> but that's over now
02:38:38 <zzo38> How might we make in Haskell that it is a type error to use a value if it specifies something that is no longer open or hasn't been created yet? Might existential quantification help?
02:38:54 <Bike> you make a good case, Gracenotes
02:40:41 <shachaf> zzo38: Doesn't pigworker have some papers on that kind of thing?
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02:41:00 <shachaf> like https://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/conor.mcbride/Kleisli.pdf
02:41:04 <Bike> wow i said something really dumb didn't i
02:41:10 <shachaf> or http://strictlypositive.org/winging-jpgs/
02:41:52 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know about "pigworker". But I thought of somehow using new type variables for each object but sharing a class and use something which makes it so that it has to match the type variable used somewheres else
02:42:02 <zzo38> I don't know exactly how to work such thing, though.
02:42:03 <shachaf> oh you said x/(1-x) was nearly linear?
02:42:19 <Bike> "thanks for checking"
02:42:55 <shachaf> no look http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=y%3Dx%2F(1-x)
02:43:02 <shachaf> that looks like a line to me
02:43:20 <Bike> you're very mean.
02:43:37 <shachaf> sry that was meant to be the opposite of mean
02:43:54 <shachaf> maybe agreeing with people is unmean??
02:44:42 <Gracenotes> I think that's a very good definition of unmean
02:45:01 <shachaf> Gracenotes: did you finish that book
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02:45:19 <kappabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
02:45:32 <zzo38> I think you can agree or disagree if you want to it is OK.
02:47:37 <shachaf> ok maybe i gotta understand comma categories
02:48:04 * tswett decides to drop the Maybe.
02:48:53 <shachaf> 19:48 <dlackili> What did Riastradh mean yesterday when he said: "Actually, there are a lot of 'factorization challenges' where you can win a lot more than 200,000 USD if you manage to factor a 2048-bit RSA modulus, but you might have to watch out for the cops if you enter and win these challenges."
02:48:58 <shachaf> 19:48 <dlackili> I don't think the cops will bust you because you solve a challenge, you get cash and you have an opportunity to create a new cryptographic algorithm and get famous.
02:49:09 <shachaf> that's mafingre etc. of pastebin.com challenge fame
02:49:15 <Bike> that's kind of adorable.
02:49:37 <tswett> I assume dlackili is the person we're ridiculing, correct?
02:50:02 <shachaf> do we have to ridicule people to enjoy what they say
02:50:18 <tswett> I assume dlackili is the person we're enjoying, correct?
02:50:45 <shachaf> ok Bike tell me about hom functors
02:51:17 <Bike> well, when a daddy kleisi and a daddy kleisi love each other very much
02:51:19 <shachaf> Bike: btw 1 + x + x² + x³ + ... is the definition of a list
02:51:26 <shachaf> and, like, zippers and stuff, man
02:51:46 <Bike> why are you saying this thing that you are saying
02:52:01 <shachaf> because you were talking about it in the other channel
02:52:20 <shachaf> and it's p. good and also you never learned about "zippers and stuff did yoU""
02:53:51 <shachaf> So C(F-,-) : D^op × C -> Set
02:54:05 <shachaf> and D(-,G-) : D^op × C -> Set
02:54:17 <shachaf> that was correcting the "So" not the "Set"
02:54:32 <shachaf> anyway does that sounds right y/n
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02:59:28 <Bike_> he's still on my /ignore probably
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03:01:21 <Bike> empty product, as you know
03:01:25 <Bike> why do you say things like this
03:02:20 <kappabot> Couldn't match expected type `(a0 -> b0 -> a0) -> a0 -> [b0] -> a0'
03:02:33 <kappabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
03:03:08 <Bike> you have to provide an identity to folds, huh
03:03:42 <shachaf> (in perl 6 the fold operator decides whether to do foldr or foldl based on the associativity of the thing you're folding)
03:04:48 <Bike> what does associativity have to do with it
03:05:04 <shachaf> associativity/infixity/whatever
03:05:42 <shachaf> as in whether a*b*c means a*(b*c) or (a*b)*c
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03:27:19 <shachaf> Bike: why am i so bad at categories hth :'(
03:29:09 <zzo38> Can you make a better 8x8 graphic for a German "Ss" ligature?
03:29:28 <tswett> You know, I just realized that whenever you evaluate a Cancel, since the entire expression is subverted, the evaluation order's going to go weird, too.
03:29:49 <shachaf> that's, like, how continuations work, man
03:30:02 <tswett> My feeble mind cannot handle continuations.
03:31:07 <Bike> you;re in good company
03:34:47 <tswett> I'm going to use Either instead.
03:35:08 <Bike> shachaf: categories seem hard!!!
03:35:33 <Bike> well why else would you be so bad at them
03:35:38 <Bike> it's, like, simple deduction, man.
03:35:44 <shachaf> maybe i'm bad at easy things :'(
03:37:32 <tswett> A monoid is kind of like a set equipped with an associative operator with identity.
03:38:05 <kappabot> gwern says: [regarding the naming of Monoids] we will call them CuteFluffableThings, since you can put more fluff into them, but no one would remove fluff from a cute thing
03:38:15 <kappabot> PhilipWadler says: I'm delighted to learn that "a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors"---anyone know where I can find a good tutorial?
03:38:19 <kappabot> PhilipWadler says: I'm delighted to learn that "a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors"---anyone know where I can find a good tutorial?
03:38:21 <kappabot> PhilipWadler says: I'm delighted to learn that "a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors"---anyone know where I can find a good tutorial?
03:38:28 <shachaf> bad quotes..............................................a
03:39:25 <tswett> I'm pretty sure that "monoid in the category of endofunctors" is nothing more than a really terse way of stating the definition of a monad, so there isn't actually any insight there.
03:39:48 <shachaf> In #haskell it's mostly a way of being annoying.
03:39:49 <Bike> what are we effing
03:39:51 <Bike> is it quotespam
03:39:56 <tswett> You may as well just say "a monad is a fizheuer zieheuer", where "fizheuer zieheuer" is defined as "monad".
03:40:17 <Bike> hey there's a kmc quote just like that but contextualized differently.
03:40:21 <kmc> fuck this imo
03:41:26 <tswett> i'm getting a type error help
03:42:58 * kmc goes back to reading book
03:43:13 <kmc> the one you lent to me
03:43:48 <shachaf> maybe i should make a tree of books
03:43:51 <tswett> Huh. Apparently \(Apply f x) -> (f, x) is a type error. Now that I think of it, that really couldn't possibly not be a type error.
03:44:06 <tswett> It would be an existential type if it were typeable.
03:44:20 <shachaf> "if you liked X and didn't like Y, you might like Z"
03:44:39 <Bike> that would be kinda cool.
03:44:57 <kmc> 'After you have sampled thousands of uses of the word "Tao", you might try your hand at being clever and framing one single definition to cover this whole multitude of cases.
03:45:00 <kmc> But even if you succeed, how utterly empty your definition will be to those who have not had your concrete experience of actually living through this philosophy!'
03:45:03 <kmc> apropos quote imo
03:45:11 <kmc> shachaf: It's like NETFLIX but for BOOKS!
03:45:36 <shachaf> well except it would all be based on my recommendations personally
03:45:39 <Bike> hey amazon is great
03:45:47 <Bike> at making me spend money i haven't earned
03:46:06 <Gracenotes> Found in an actual dotfile: set visualbell " shut the fuck up
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03:54:40 <kmc> help what is going on in ##crypto
03:55:14 <kmc> <dlackili> rajdhskdsf: You came in here yesterday, with the same IP under a diff name
03:55:38 <shachaf> the challenger is challenged
03:56:47 <kmc> a room full of sockpuppet dissociated identities, challenging each other to break weird codes
03:56:49 <kmc> stupid pkd future
03:57:28 <Bike> predicted the internet age, by being high and schizophrenic
03:57:28 <shachaf> kmc: what if rajdhskdsf is dlackili's sockpuppet
03:57:45 <shachaf> an excuse to give their challenges to someone
03:57:49 <kmc> what if we are all zzo38's sockpuppet
03:58:13 <tswett> I think I've successfully implemented my linear reducer thinger.
03:58:13 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you a sockpuppet?
04:01:27 <Bike> "if you can solve this pastebin, you're obviously not a sockpuppet"
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04:13:21 <shachaf> Bike_: What's with your ISP?
04:13:46 <Bike_> crappy boonies connection dies every time the phone is picked up, i apologize
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04:14:36 <shachaf> maybe you should run your irc client on a server
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04:20:20 <kmc> Bike: you're on dialup?
04:20:28 <Bike> no, which just makes it surreal.
04:21:28 <shachaf> Bike: they have those things that you're supposed to plug into phones when you're using dsl, don't they? do you use those things....... .
04:21:56 <Bike> look i'm not good with computers ok
04:21:57 <Gracenotes> do you know the horrors of using vim in compatible mode?
04:22:13 <Gracenotes> I don't know how I could live like that for so long. like, a week.
04:24:36 <kmc> do what shachaf says
04:24:58 <kmc> shachaf: woah running a client ON a server? this is like inception
04:27:04 <shachaf> 21:26 <rajdhskdsf> dlackili: dump all you know right here.
04:27:11 <shachaf> 21:27 <rajdhskdsf> dlackili: dump all your knowledge right here.
04:27:25 <shachaf> imo this sockpuppet theory seems more and more likely
04:28:17 <Gracenotes> knowledge dump in constant time. 1. Reflexivity 2. QED
04:28:18 <kmc> even with <rajdhskdsf> dlackili: ok. not its official: you know nothing about what you are talking about
04:28:52 <Gracenotes> for sure, I am not in any such silly channels having silly conversations
04:29:38 <shachaf> So there are two common strategies for making a thing you did seem impressive. One is to say that it was very hard (because doing hard things is impressive), and the other is to say that it was very easy (because if *that* was easy for you, who knows what you could do when you really put your mind to it!).
04:33:21 <kmc> so I think dlackili is trolling the channel and rajdhskdsf is trolling dlackili
04:34:13 <kmc> ask not for whom the bell trolls
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04:49:23 <Gracenotes> hm... I've forgotten whether I'm in a chroot or not
04:49:47 <Bike> pkd goes a-hacking
04:50:01 <Gracenotes> will Ctrl+D exit the chroot, or kill my terminal?
04:50:03 <kmc> dispatching rescue team
04:50:33 <Bike> now i want a script called `ubik' that just tells you if you're chrooted
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04:53:03 <kmc> there's a windows program called redpill.exe that tells you if you're in a VM
04:53:08 <kmc> ubik is a m. better reference though
04:53:24 <Bike> i haven't read the book in forever, what did the spray actually do
04:53:30 <Bike> made stuff rotten or unrotted it, i forget
04:54:28 <kmc> it wasn't always a spray though
04:54:32 <douglass> it's advertised as a "reality support"
04:55:09 <Bike> so `ubik' ought to like, tell you you're in a chroot, but also make the chroot harder to break out of, or something
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05:35:14 <kmc> "The typical keyboard layout used in the United Kingdom features separate keys for vertical bar and broken bar; however, typically on Windows PCs the vertical bar key produces a broken-bar symbol." :psyduck:
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05:37:17 <kmc> nobody seems to know why the broken bar glyph even exists
05:37:31 <kmc> but it has its own codepoint in Unicode and indeed ISO-8859-1
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05:39:39 <Bike> it's so that i can make this face: ¦:|
05:40:01 <shachaf> kmc: Remember whe | used to be rendered as ¦?
05:40:29 <kmc> i was pretty young at the time
05:41:29 <shachaf> (which makes sense, i suppose)
05:41:36 <kmc> remember when keyboards had open-apple and closed-apple
05:41:41 <Sgeo> It's still rendered like that on my keyboard
05:41:46 <kmc> and swedish campground symbol
05:41:47 <Sgeo> What font do keyboards use?
05:48:25 <zzo38> You could use such "redpill.exe" and "ubik" and whatever, improve the VM software so that the program running in VM won't check!
05:50:53 <Bike> i've been assuming that ¦ is used for something since they gave it its own altgr
05:52:05 <kmc> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/latin1/ascii-hist.html
05:52:30 <fizzie> Bike: ¦ is used by shells to make a pipeline that'll immediately cause a "broken bar" SIGPIPE signal when anything is written to. (It's not terribly useful.) ((This is not terribly true.))
05:52:36 <zzo38> shachaf: Make a VM software so that any program running in the VM won't run differently than one that isn't.
05:53:08 <Bike> «The left and right square brackets [] were proposed for inclusion because of their "high use in ALGOL" (in conjunction with arrays) and for being "useful for human-to-human communication".» i too am useful to human communication
05:53:22 <zzo38> shachaf: Is that the proper syntax for quote don't you have to use a regular expression?
05:54:04 <shachaf> Oh, I thought it was case-insensitive, but on second thought that's lambdabot.
05:54:07 <HackEgo> 185) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 214) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could m
05:54:31 <shachaf> Wait, 214 has "octopu -- oh.
05:54:38 <shachaf> OK, I really got it mixed up with lambdabot. :-(
05:54:49 <HackEgo> 182) <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minecraft. If more people want it someone can make using GNU GPL v3 or later version, with different people, might improve slightly. \ 186) <zzo38> I have plans to make the computer and one day I will do it!! (I have access to barter some people might help with these things) It is many difference from
05:55:03 <shachaf> Fine. And it's case-sensitive too.
05:55:06 <Bike> «Proposed as "reverse division" operator and for use in two-character sequences for logical operators. » christ, they fucked that one up
05:56:02 <fizzie> Bike: MATLAB(/Octave) still uses it as a reverse division.
05:56:47 <shachaf> Bike: hey you know what's "even cooler than" limits and adjunctions
05:57:12 <shachaf> like, limits are adjoint, or something
05:57:37 <shachaf> a little hazy on the details and i have no paper :'(
05:57:54 <shachaf> anyway this being your area of expertise maybe you can explain it
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05:58:08 <Bike> y r u so mean 2 me
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05:58:37 <fizzie> Bike: (It's a reverse matrix division, so it's more useful in the sense that A\B is the solution to A*X = B; it's also supposed to be computed more efficiently/accurately than if you'd write inv(A)*B.)
05:58:42 <kmc> `quote 186
05:58:44 <HackEgo> 186) <zzo38> I have plans to make the computer and one day I will do it!! (I have access to barter some people might help with these things) It is many difference from other computer.
05:59:25 <Bike> wow i can get this paper by just subscribing to Nature Neuroscience for $225
05:59:29 <fizzie> (It also returns the least-squares solution if A is not square.)
05:59:43 <Bike> OR I could buy just the article (AND pdf) for $32!!!
05:59:57 <shachaf> Bike: what if you sold your soul instead
06:00:06 <shachaf> how many papers would that get you
06:00:39 <Bike> ok well the proxy isn't working, fuck.
06:01:47 <shachaf> <ddarius> If D is a diagram, i.e. a functor, D : I -> C, and K is the constant functor K : C -> C^I, then limits are characterized by Nat(KA,D) ~ Hom(A, Lim D) and colimits by Hom(Colim D, B) ~ Nat(D, KB).
06:02:08 <shachaf> so K means the diagonal functor, right? i.e. the functor that gives you a constant functor?
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06:08:17 <shachaf> i was just being unable to read english
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06:16:43 <comex> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/ext-f/axioms-extended.pdf
06:16:51 <comex> it says that "Int and C Int have no common reduct."
06:17:09 <comex> yet C Int can be reduced to D Int (C Int) which can be reduced to Int
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06:20:25 <shachaf> I haven't read the paper or anything about this extension, but why can D Int (C Int) be reduced to Int?
06:20:50 <shachaf> It's D x x = ..., not D x y. Or did I misunderstand?
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06:22:19 <shachaf> Maybe I should read this paper.
06:22:42 <shachaf> But my tab bar is completely full so I'd have to pick a tab to close.
06:23:31 <shachaf> OK, I have foo.old.txt and foo.txt both open next to each. That looks like a good candidate.
06:23:42 <shachaf> But maybe I had a reason for it?
06:23:53 <Bike> yeah, metasyntax is bad for filenames
06:24:01 <shachaf> Maybe I should download papers like Bike rather than keep it all in my browser.
06:24:12 <Bike> wave of the future
06:24:41 <shachaf> Hmm, .old.txt is much longer, so probably not.
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06:29:33 <shachaf> Bike: hm maybe i was right all along
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06:38:17 <Bike> that's not very much...
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06:46:38 <shachaf> kmc: Hmm, do enum and struct syntax overlap at all?
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06:53:46 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.tdp.cat/issues/tdp.a015a09.pdf
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07:00:37 <Bike> trinary 4 life.
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07:02:10 <shachaf> Bike: how many hours of sleep should i get p. night
07:03:57 <shachaf> should i fix one of getting-up-time/going-to-sleep-time
07:04:37 <shachaf> Bike what do those guys/gals that sit and find large numbers do if not arithmetic?
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07:21:02 <shachaf> ion: Did you figure out callcc<->lem?
07:21:20 <ion> shachaf: Haven't got around to it yet, but i certainly will.
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08:40:03 <ion> Heh, i got an OTP that ended 3141592.
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08:49:23 <fizzie> Perhaps it's some kind of a pi backdoor.
08:54:55 <Gracenotes> yeah, no secure generator would generate pi; everyone knows it
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09:03:33 <fizzie> I used to have a credit card with a PIN code that was printed on the receipts, because it was equal to a substring of the "application ID" that gets printed.
09:12:59 <Gracenotes> (incidentally, the defect of the Nazi enigma machine that contributed substantially towards automatically breaking it was that it was a letter-wise derangement: corresponding input/output letters never matched)
09:13:52 <Gracenotes> (so, if your OTP never generates pi, or 111111, you should ask for your money back)
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12:28:16 <Taneb> I'm re-reading House of Leaves
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13:28:48 <boily> good cold morning!
13:30:44 <boily> @tell vorpal eeeeh... tbh, no idea. I guess it finally worked? I went on another project, then switched teams. feedback from the client was very sparse.
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13:32:54 <HackEgo> 2013-07-23 15:34:10: <Vorpal> Which is very very strange still
13:33:23 <boily> but as long as he isn't connected, I can't @localtime him.
13:37:14 <fizzie> Swedish @localtime is Finnish @localtime minus one hour hth
13:39:36 <fizzie> It's "T at start, except if there is a vowel anywhere, then replace all initial non-vowels with Th".
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13:40:07 <fizzie> (Where "T at start" means "replace first letter with T".)
13:41:21 <fizzie> `thanks cnsntthnglngw/e
13:41:22 <HackEgo> Thanks, cnsntthnglngw/e. The.
13:41:45 <fizzie> ("Consonant-thing long whatever.")
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14:14:20 <oerjan> @ask Gregor Why have the formatted logs suddenly turned black on grey, i find that annoying to read :(
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14:24:44 <Gracenotes> I decided to dress in more classic silicon valley fashion today
14:25:10 <Gracenotes> black jeans, long-sleeved striped dress shirt, hoodie
14:25:24 <boily> Gracenotes: do you wear socks in your sandals?
14:25:34 <Gracenotes> it's like I'm business casual, but taking it down a notch. yeaaaa
14:25:52 * oerjan is wearing two layers of socks in his sandals at the moment
14:26:06 <oerjan> because my feet get cold
14:26:23 <Gracenotes> boily: no, that's for plebes, for sure
14:27:03 <Gracenotes> j/k. My outfit is a commentary on the subversion of business norms in a casual innovative environment.
14:27:28 <oerjan> the outer layer is knitted wool
14:31:09 <boily> oerjan: in the winter we have «gougounes en phentex» (handmade knitted synthetic wool slippers, a traditional christmas gift)
14:32:13 <oerjan> i think mine are real wool, this particular pair is definitely handmade
14:33:38 <boily> most definitely synthetic. Phentex is a brand.
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14:37:07 <oerjan> boily: stop chickening out all the time twh
14:39:21 <oerjan> <kmc> <dlackili> rajdhskdsf: You came in here yesterday, with the same IP under a diff name <-- getting surreal
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14:46:43 <boily> oerjan: I'm still having trouble mixing /quit and /close.
14:47:15 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
14:47:26 <boily> oh yeah. I wrote that one.
14:56:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastewords: not found
14:57:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
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14:59:38 <boily> what the fungot is that ascii mutant doing here?
14:59:38 <fungot> boily: almost as fun as it seems that there's a girl who entered college at 16 and haven't been coding other than icfp recently
15:00:06 <oerjan> boily: myndzi does not discriminate the handicapped hth
15:01:03 * oerjan vaguely remembers "handicapped" is no longer pc, but cannot remember what the pc term is. hm, disabled?
15:01:27 <boily> differently abled, I think.
15:01:48 <oerjan> are you saying they're _different_? that's insensitive!
15:02:23 <boily> it could be worse. I could have said “Canadianly abled”.
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15:20:39 <shachaf> 08:19 <danharaj> does anyone know how to make a project with a lot of TH build faster?
15:20:56 <shachaf> oerjan: resisting the urge to say "use less th hth"
15:21:34 <oerjan> *use less useless th hth
15:23:59 <oerjan> wait for me, something?
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15:29:53 <quintopia> do you know a way to crack a .odm file without installing overdrive media console?
15:30:44 <quintopia> and the library i'm borrowing from doesn't support audio books for android for some reason
15:33:50 <boily> oooh, I like it :D
15:34:28 <boily> quintopia: sadly, I think you're stuck with the thing, which is very stupid and obnoxious and gets in the way of the Freedom of Audiobooks.
15:36:19 <HackEgo> Thanks, mgrvgrvladje. Thadje.
15:39:13 <boily> quintopia: I had a Tintin album on vinyl once. it's somewhere in my parents' basement. probably.
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17:14:09 <kmc> shachaf: what do you mean by the syntax overlapping? they use different keywords obviously
17:14:24 <kmc> but you can define an enum variant with named fields, or a tuple-like struct
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17:16:40 <shachaf> I mean, is there a meaning to e.g. "enum Foo(int, char);" or "enum Foo { x: int, y: char }".
17:17:10 <shachaf> But maybe that kind of overloading isn't so great.
17:17:35 <shachaf> enums, even with a single variant, don't let you write things like x.y (I think?).
17:18:06 <kmc> yeah that would be odd
17:19:06 <shachaf> Of course, maybe it should be like Haskell. E.g. enum Foo { A { x: int, y: char }, B { x: int, z: bool } } would allow .x but not .y or .z.
17:19:18 <shachaf> (Well, in Haskell it's allowed, just a runtime error. :-( )
17:19:22 <kmc> i don't love that part of Haskell
17:19:51 <Taneb> So it should be like Haskell but better?
17:19:55 <zzo38> If you are using the keyword enum instead of struct then I do suppose that would make more sense than enum Foo { x: int, y: char } isn't it?
17:20:40 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, the question is how well it'd work to combine enum and struct.
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17:23:25 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, in Haskell it works, at least.
17:24:05 <kmc> shachaf: I'm reading the cryptographic Bloom filters paper now
17:27:32 <kmc> whee RSA blind signing
17:34:14 <kmc> yeah i don't know if there's a "safe" way to do blind signing
17:34:18 <kmc> since you can't use traditional RSA padding
17:35:30 <Gracenotes> not without introducing a salt manually
17:37:04 <kmc> elaborate?
17:37:31 <metasepia> A colorless or white crystalline solid, chiefly sodium chloride, used extensively in ground or granulated form as a food seasoning and preservative.
17:43:08 <zzo38> Do you know an algorithm to efficiently encode text when there are temporary and permanent shift codes with varying lengths depending on the current state?
17:43:33 <Gracenotes> kmc: do-your-own-padding, salt chosen by signer
17:45:19 <Gracenotes> well... if they're signing a hash of the message, just make the hash hard-to-predict
17:45:24 <boily> zzo38: that sounds vaguely iso 2022...
17:46:18 <kmc> imo fuck iso 2022
17:46:57 <Gracenotes> anyway, as long as you never use the 0x00 padding...
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17:48:14 <Gracenotes> I will admit my lack of familiarity with blind signing attacks. so I stfu.
17:48:18 <HackEgo> olist (904): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
17:48:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 奥list: not found
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17:55:20 <zzo38> boily: Not really the kind of thing I am doing, though. The shift and shiftlock codes vary (including by their length) depending on the current state, and there is only one current state instead of two.
17:57:58 <boily> what kind of encoding can be even more nasty than iso 2022?
18:01:40 <zzo38> I have made up a three dimensional transition matrix table, from the initial permanent state, final permanent state, and the state which the current character belongs to, into the encoding to use for it; they hav varying lengths without a clear pattern.
18:02:14 <quintopia> boily: Aubergine programs that output the correct bytecode sequences
18:02:59 -!- Bike_ has joined.
18:03:02 <quintopia> boily: you should make an Aubergine interpreter that outputs the memory cells as colored pixels in a grid. GrApHiCaL aUbErGiNe!
18:03:24 <zzo38> boily: It is Z-machine encoding, and it is actually simpler than ISO 2022 (ISO 2022 has a large number of featurse this one doesn't use), although it does have the feature that the encoding for shifts also changes depending on the current state.
18:03:45 * boily is suddenly struck with abject panic, horror, terror, and grotesque fear
18:04:48 <boily> quintopia: the obnoxious capitalization notwithstanding, this is a very interesting idea.
18:05:01 <boily> zzo38: you are evil.
18:05:15 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:05:31 <zzo38> boily: I didn't make up this encoding.
18:05:41 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
18:06:06 * boily hides behind his trusty squid
18:06:07 <nooodl> hmmm i wonder which two #esoteric members share a birthday, if any
18:06:33 <kmc> i know someone else with a dec 24 birthday, but he's not here
18:06:46 <kmc> i'm feb 22
18:06:54 <shachaf> my birthday is ""coming up""
18:07:01 <shachaf> oops this is like that pop quiz puzzle
18:07:32 <kmc> when shachaf
18:07:33 <zzo38> Why do you call me evil?
18:07:52 <boily> zzo38: I thought that you had created that encoding.
18:07:54 <nooodl> zzo38: when's your birthday (for science)
18:08:14 <Gracenotes> shachaf: what are your birthday plans?
18:08:17 <boily> nooodl: are you trying to ask Questions to people you too?
18:08:45 <zzo38> nooodl: I don't think you should require it.
18:08:46 <nooodl> imo birthdays are less awkward than weight + coordinates!!
18:09:21 <shachaf> Gracenotes: usually my plans are to pretend it doesn't exist :'(
18:10:08 <boily> that reminds me, Vorpal: for very scientific purposes, what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
18:10:09 <shachaf> but maybe i've said too much
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18:14:36 <zzo38> What purposes do you need their coordinates and weight?
18:19:12 <boily> zzo38: to compute this Fine Channel's center of mass.
18:19:28 <jsvine> Hello, hello hexham. I'm continuing to gather thread for a story on esolangs and esolangers. I've had some good email exchanges with esolangers past and present, and looking to learn more about the rest of you. Quick survey if you'd like to help: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform
18:19:38 <boily> (and as shachaf kindly pointed out, the t is a ta' marbuta.)
18:20:07 <boily> Gracenotes: ÿou are.
18:20:14 <shachaf> jsvine: You might consider adding fields for approximate coördinates and body weigh.
18:20:33 <zzo38> jsvine: OK I am filling the form now.
18:21:06 * shachaf isn't really an esolanger so wouldn't feel right filling in the survey.
18:21:31 * kmc isn't really an esolanger and also feels guilty about being part of the off-topic-ification of this channel
18:22:03 <shachaf> I think "approximate" distributes over "and".
18:22:07 <shachaf> But I'm not actually sure.
18:22:15 <shachaf> boily: Is the body weigh also approximate?
18:22:39 <jsvine> shachaf & kmc: meh, interested to hear from you anyway
18:22:46 <boily> shachaf: considering the kind of responses and answers I have collated, I don't think it makes any statistically significant difference.
18:23:15 <jsvine> shachaf & boily: merged
18:24:27 * shachaf can't tell whether "Are you planing to visit New York City any time soon?" is a pun.
18:24:48 <fizzie> (What's the type of "shachaf &&& boily"?)
18:25:06 <zzo38> kmc: I don't think that is a good way to feel guilty; this channel has a lot of off-topic that is OK, although you should know at least a few things about esolang if you want to discuss on this channel since it is sometime used for explanation of various things not only about esolang.
18:25:23 <kmc> what's the pun shachaf
18:25:42 <kmc> zzo38: I know a lot about "unintentional esolangs" such as return-oriented programming, etc.
18:26:13 <boily> kmc: return-oriented???
18:26:35 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, good to know that too some people in here would be interested in such things too including myself. What is "return-oriented", though?
18:27:20 <kmc> boily: it's a technique for exploiting programs where you can't directly inject your own code (because the stack is non-executable, say). you build an exploit payload out of fragments of code already existing in the legitimate process
18:27:35 <kmc> http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~hovav/dist/geometry.pdf
18:28:00 <boily> jsvine: the form, it is filled.
18:28:06 <zzo38> Maybe if an actual esolang can be made which is using mainly that, rather than as a exploiting?
18:28:23 <kmc> any sequence of bytes in executable memory that ends in a RET instruction can be used as a "gadget"
18:28:55 <jsvine> boily: the response, it is received
18:29:00 <kmc> you build a bunch of fake stack frames pointing at them, and they return to each other one after another
18:29:16 <shachaf> also some other kinds of indirect jumps
18:29:20 <kmc> and on x86 instructions have no alignment requirement so they don't even need to be "intentional" RET instructions, just any byte 0xC3 in exec memory
18:29:32 <nooodl> kmc: holy crap that's art
18:29:49 <olsner> oh, are we discussing ROP as an esolang again?
18:31:10 <nooodl> what ARE my favorite esolangs... hmmm
18:31:22 <kmc> it's not just a beautiful hack, it's also the basis of most real world memory corruption exploits these days
18:31:51 <kmc> since people are now pretty good at avoiding writeable, executable pages
18:32:21 <boily> what about self-modifying code?
18:33:38 <kmc> most programs don't have too much of that
18:33:45 <kmc> (although almost every program has a little!)
18:33:49 <Gracenotes> ROP did have papers on how it was climbing out of the Turing tarip
18:33:59 <zzo38> jsvine: I submitted the form.
18:34:02 <kmc> but you can do it by remapping as writeable, then as executable
18:34:15 <kmc> and not leaving both perms set at a time when you could be exploited
18:35:10 <Gracenotes> I suppose you could consider buffer overflows involving pointer-nested struct manipulation itself an esolang
18:35:51 <shachaf> kmc: turns out the ghc executable stack thing was due to people turning it on accidentally or something
18:35:53 <jsvine> zzo38: received, thanks
18:36:00 <kmc> also the stuff people do to exploit heap corruption
18:36:23 <Gracenotes> a lot of exploits are in bootstrapping native code, yes, but they can operate in other ad-hoc computational frameworks first. The key is that those other computational frameworks, despite their limitations, are still basically Turing-complete.
18:36:57 <kmc> http://www.phrack.com/issues.html?issue=57&id=8 the word "epic" gets thrown around a lot these days but I really can't think of any more fitting description for this article & exploit
18:37:01 <zzo38> I usually don't bother with trying to prevent these overflows and kind bugs unless the program either is meant to be use with suid or meant to receive untrusted input.
18:37:34 <Bike> hey shachaf, any chance you could compose an epic (just some couplets) about this article
18:37:48 <shachaf> Bike: outsourced to Gracenotes hth
18:38:18 <Bike> hey Gracenotes, any chance you could compose an epic (just some couplets, heavy on alexandrines though) about this article
18:38:30 <kmc> that would be awesome
18:38:42 <zzo38> I do worry about security when applicable. Programs I have written meant to be secure include Internet Quiz Engine and the remote TeX interface; please tell me if you find any security hole.
18:39:45 <shachaf> jsvine: Maybe you would gain important insight about the people in #esoteric from reading the channel quotes!
18:40:09 <zzo38> Yes, also read the logs.
18:40:28 <fizzie> There's only $(wc -l quotes) of them, after all!
18:40:50 <elliott> I don't think they have any important insights though
18:41:20 <zzo38> They keep deleting quotations so there may be more things in the logs, too.
18:41:35 <mnoqy> elliott: counterpoint: `pastequotes zzo38
18:41:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29785
18:42:17 <nooodl> jsvine: submitted! the "what's your favorite esolangs" question reminded me of this thing: http://kevan.org/rubicon/
18:42:29 <zzo38> You can also look at my Dungeons&Dragons game if you think it leads to any insights or just entertainment or whatever you think it is
18:42:30 <nooodl> it's a programming puzzle game inspired by an esolang by cpressey
18:43:24 <zzo38> nooodl: I wanted to make up a card game based on INTERCAL somehow...
18:43:42 <fizzie> Oh yes, consider also reading the logs, for insight. There's only three million or so lines in my (slightly incomplete) copy.
18:44:17 <HackEgo> 12) <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest. \ 13) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 81) <ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) \ 124) <AnMaster> c
18:44:26 <elliott> fizzie: but no lines of insight.
18:45:08 <shachaf> mnoqy: how do you feel about the lack of a super mega update yesterday
18:46:22 <olsner> is it a bold yellow angry?
18:46:36 <jsvine> nooodl: thanks and thanks — I hadn't seen that before!
18:46:43 <fizzie> elliott: select count(*) from event where target = 2 and type = 'msg' and body ilike '%insight%' => 266 so there
18:47:15 <zzo38> I have once made up a computer game based on BackFlip esolang; the grid is hidden but you can choose which edge to enter, and then it updates the grid and tells you where it exits from as well as the output of the program, and you have to figure out where the pieces are.
18:47:50 <jsvine> zzo38: In doing some of this research, I read the original INTERCAL paper for the first time. Pretty great.
18:48:29 <zzo38> (You don't have to specify the direction of a mirror or arrow, although you do have to specify it is a mirror, arrow, empty, or output, and if it is output then you do have to specify its value.)
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18:51:25 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes I suppose a SQL database would be a good way to search it, although I might use a different format, so the target is '#esoteric' and the type is 'PRIVMSG'
18:52:31 <zzo38> I have written a extension library for some statistical functions in SQL, since otherwise SQL is already pretty good for some kind of statistics. I have also written a extension library which defines a virtual table containing all 64-bit integers; this table can be used like a FOR-loop.
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18:56:44 <zzo38> jsvine: I like that, as well as the stuff written later about INTERCAL, such as "P.D.Q. Bach is the INTERCAL of baroque music"
19:00:04 <zzo38> A lot of things are Turing-complete, even Wang tiles, sequent calculus, Wang B machine, Magic: the Gathering cards, Minesweeper, ...
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19:00:32 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
19:00:57 <Taneb> Minesweeper is turing-complete?
19:02:15 <boily> I should sell tees with “This T-Shirt is Turing Complete”.
19:04:25 <boily> I'd slap you with a tunafish.
19:05:45 <zzo38> I have made a Turing machine sequent calculus consisting of four rules.
19:06:28 <boily> delicious, fresh tunafish...
19:06:53 <Bike> back in my day we just had tapes and greek letters and that was enough turing completeness for us, but these days everybody wants to be turing complete! oh this shirt is complete. oh this puzzle is complete. oh sokoban is in PSPACE. enough i say!!
19:08:00 <zzo38> Not all of them are even intended to be Turing-complete, though.
19:15:04 <shachaf> Maybe we should put jsvine's survey in the topic.
19:15:27 <zzo38> I suppose you can if you want to
19:15:40 <zzo38> But don't make it too longer otherwise it won't fit
19:16:11 <jsvine> shachaf: hey, thanks, that'd be great
19:16:18 <boily> who is mr. burbujas?
19:17:08 <zzo38> jsvine: Some things I didn't mention but I don't know if you want to know these things about various people in here, or would be interested in it at all
19:17:52 <douglass_> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pickup_stix/6010986771/
19:17:52 <kmc> boily: http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/assets_c/2009/08/rsz_1intact-thumb-500x374.jpg http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaseysmith/7218024116/sizes/l/
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19:18:01 <jsvine> zzo38: always interested to know things about various people
19:18:12 <Bike> hm, we can take underhanded out now, can't we?
19:18:30 <zzo38> Does it help to know that some people in here also program Haskell (including myself)?
19:18:39 <boily> this is most disturbing.
19:18:42 <Bike> well you can't submit any more.
19:18:45 <shachaf> OK, someone else do the topic thing.
19:19:23 -!- Bike has set topic: jsvine is doing an esolang survey!: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:19:28 <kmc> rip burbujas
19:19:52 <zzo38> Also, that I play monster character in Dungeons&Dragons game and record it using TeX with a set of macros I wrote for that purpose? Maybe that tells you what kind of people I am, but confusing since that is just one thing not everything. You could learn other people too.
19:20:04 <jsvine> zzo38: It could be. Why do you think? I'm a few chapters into Learn You a Haskell for Great Good, so I'm interested, independent of this research, but don't see the immediate connection.
19:20:10 <zzo38> The IRC logs has a lot of it but they are really long anyways; you could try looking at some things at random.
19:20:34 <zzo38> jsvine: The connection is just that some people in here have interest in Haskell programming too.
19:20:55 <kmc> Haskell is a strange language, it's not "esoteric" in the strict sense, but might appeal for similar reasons
19:21:25 <shachaf> it might appeal to people who like hugs
19:21:49 <jsvine> zzo38 & kmc: Gotcha. It seems to have a similar brain-stretching appeal. What other mainstream languages do you think particularly appeal to esolangers?
19:22:15 <kmc> jsvine: speaking only for myself: Haskell, C++, Rust are all very interesting and ususual
19:22:35 <kmc> probably Prolog and other logic languages
19:22:42 <kmc> dependently typed languages such as Coq, Agda, Idris
19:23:08 <zzo38> TeX is a bit unusual when doing things other than typesetting
19:23:11 <kmc> maybe Scheme; the language itself is very simple, but it provides a nice setting for exploring a lot of mind-bending FP concepts
19:23:21 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> TeX is a bit unusual when doing things other than typesetting
19:23:25 <HackEgo> 1075) <zzo38> TeX is a bit unusual when doing things other than typesetting
19:23:32 <Bike> several people here do assembly and machine code and such, i think, more than i'd expect from randomness
19:23:59 <Bike> or are familiar with that level of things anyway
19:24:04 <zzo38> Yes, I have written a few programs for the Famicom
19:24:06 <Bike> maybe just from looking at compiler output, i dunno.
19:24:22 <Bike> compilers being, of course, very PLT-relevant programs
19:24:23 <zzo38> (using assembly language)
19:27:57 <shachaf> http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2013/07/10/avx-512-instructions
19:28:00 <zzo38> Control structures in non-procedural SQL is also unusual
19:28:48 <shachaf> i bet Fiora has already been using it for years
19:29:51 <kmc> too many goddamn bits
19:29:53 <Fiora> "Intel AVX instructions use the VEX prefix while Intel AVX-512 instructions use the EVEX prefix which is one byte longer." ooooh.
19:29:58 <kmc> how long before I can fit an entire page in a CPU register
19:30:11 <kmc> only 3 more steps
19:30:14 <Fiora> I think this means they might be adding the Knights' Corner features (like swizzling and stuff) to normal AVX :o
19:30:39 <olsner> kmc: 6 more steps? the 512 is (I assume) bits...
19:30:43 <fizzie> kmc: 512 bits is not quite three steps away from 4096 bytes.
19:30:54 <fizzie> I suppose it depends on the size of a step, though.
19:30:54 <Fiora> but geez, that's a lot of prefix bytes
19:31:54 <Bike> eventually we just abandon main memory. a golden age
19:32:11 <Fiora> gosh this is cool though
19:32:35 <Fiora> oh geeez. 32 registers O_O
19:32:59 * Fiora bakes intel cookies
19:33:34 <olsner> ah, so the next step would probably be enough to load a whole page into registers, albeit not *one* register
19:33:46 <olsner> ("the 32 ZMM registers represent 2K of register space!")
19:34:08 <fizzie> What *I'm* waiting for is seeing what the next letter is going to be.
19:34:19 <fizzie> They've gone from xmm to ymm to zmm; now it gets interesting.
19:35:46 <fizzie> olsner: Well, I don't know. Perhaps the Danish conspiracy manages an æmm.
19:36:00 <olsner> or perhaps something like ezmm or xzmm for extended zmm
19:37:54 <olsner> or they might do something boring like operating pairwise on zmm0+1 (and perhaps add another 32 registers at the end)
19:38:02 <zzo38> jsvine: Do you know anything about some of the other things I have mentioned (TeX, Dungeons&Dragons game, etc)? Do you know a lot of things other people are mentioning?
19:38:16 <Fiora> it would be really convenient if they did pairing like um... I think NEON does
19:38:23 <Fiora> so like, ymm0+ymm1 == zmm0
19:38:32 <Fiora> that makes it super easy to address the top and bottom halves of a register
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19:38:45 <Fiora> right now you have to do, like, a vextract to get the top half
19:38:56 <zzo38> Fiora: My opinion is that they are getting way too complicated?
19:39:14 <Fiora> so like vextracti128 xmm1, ymm0, 1 paddw xmm0, xmm1 movhlps xmm1, xmm0 paddw xmm0, xmm1 etc to do a horizontal sum
19:39:31 <fizzie> Fiora: Would you then have 32 zmm registers, 64 ymm registers and 128 xmm registers?
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19:40:04 <Fiora> I guess if that was too hard on the instruction set you could, like, have only the lowest ones addressable as both?
19:40:11 <shachaf> Well, xmm registers are already specified to be the bottom half of ymm registers, aren't they?
19:40:23 <Fiora> yeah, but like, xmm1 is the bottom half of ymm1, not the top half of ymm0
19:40:51 <Fiora> I guess there must be some reason they didn't do it that way...
19:40:52 <shachaf> Right. You're just proposing adding N new xmm registers to address the top halves?
19:41:16 <Bike> "Yesterday was my 21st birthday; at that age Newton and Pascal had already acquired many claims to immortality." -- fourier <-- suddenly i feel a bit better.
19:41:17 <zzo38> A lot of modern computer designs are way too complicated; sometimes I have designed (or used) simpler things, such as Digi-RGB for a video cable.
19:41:21 <Fiora> Umm.... I guess you could? you cuold also, like, have ymm0-7 map to xmm0-15?
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19:42:26 <shachaf> Oh, AVX doubled the number of xmm registers anyway?
19:42:44 <Fiora> the doubling is with AVX-512, I think, that's a new thing
19:43:26 <jsvine> zzo38: In summer camp, ages ago, I used to play D&D, but barely remember a bit of it. And I've heard of TeX but never used it. A lot of the other topics (XMM register, return oriented programming, etc.) I've never heard of before, and occasionally look up on the Google.
19:43:31 <fizzie> x86-64 did double the number of xmm's from the original 8, though.
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19:43:58 <shachaf> fizzie: Right, I just figured that out.
19:43:59 <Fiora> I wonder if AVX-512 will let us use all 32 of them on 32-bit or something?
19:44:29 <Bike> apparently fourier was more known as an egyptologist than anything while he was alive.
19:44:33 <Bike> so... i guess that went well.
19:44:55 <zzo38> jsvine: Well, if you are interested, here it is: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex and dungeonsrecording.tex
19:45:47 <Bike> published his first original result in 1798, he was... 30
19:46:17 <fizzie> Fiora: Can you even run 32-bit stuff on one of those Xeon Phi things?
19:46:35 <olsner> Fiora: probably not? 32-bit is just left in for booting 64-bit :)
19:46:41 <fizzie> Fiora: It sounds like a thing they wouldn't bother have included when it was just a coprocessor.
19:46:49 <zzo38> (My character is Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe)
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19:47:18 <fizzie> olsner: Xeon Phi (with AVX-512) was previously just a PCIe coprocessor card, it doesn't even need to boot anything.
19:47:20 <Bike> 32 bit is just for booting 64 bit, as 16 bit is for booting 32 bit, 4 bit is for booting 8 bit, etc
19:47:24 <Fiora> fizzie: I'm guessing AVX-512 will be on upcoming regular intel chips, though?
19:47:34 <Fiora> or will it be phi-only...?
19:47:42 <Fiora> I mean, I guess it'd be harder for them to drop support on regular ones...
19:48:07 <Fiora> oh, you're right... it doesn't say anything about their regular chips
19:48:20 <comex> does AMD do any of this stuff yet?
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19:48:21 <olsner> fizzie: it does boot something, but I think they've removed most of the legacy crud
19:48:52 <Fiora> I think AMD still has 128-bit execution units... but I'm not totally sure..
19:48:53 <olsner> from what I read, there was some kind of "firmware" from intel, but it could also boot a linux kernel
19:49:09 -!- Frooxius has joined.
19:49:12 <fizzie> Fiora: It did say something about "some future Xeon processors scheduled to be introduced after Knights Landing".
19:49:14 <elliott> Bike: whoa, fourier is old.
19:49:39 <kmc> oh damn I fail at bits vs bytes
19:50:04 <olsner> give it time kmc, you'll learn to computer some day
19:50:31 <Bike> elliott: ancient
19:52:24 <Fiora> fizzie: I guess if sandy bridge was AVX-256 maybe skylake will be AVX-512...
19:52:41 <fizzie> Fiora: The AVX-512 chapter of the Extensions Programming Reference contains a line stating "in 64-bit mode, 32 vector registers can be encoded using EVEX prefix", which kinda-sorta sounds like you could do *something* in not-64-bit mode too, but it doesn't seem to exactly say that either.
19:53:10 <Fiora> Maybe it'd be 16 registers in 32-bit mode? XD
19:53:13 <fizzie> I guess maybe it's just saying that the EVEX prefix is only recognized in 64-bit mode.
19:53:22 <Fiora> wouldn't that mean that you can't even use AVX-512 in 32-bit mode?
19:53:23 <olsner> in 32-bit mode, 32 vector registers can be encoded using a switch to long mode
19:53:47 <Bike> "Fourier was in his mid-fifties when he finally published The Analytical Theory of Heat."
19:53:53 <fizzie> Fiora: That's somewhat what it sounds like.
19:54:59 <fizzie> Fiora: Also, EVEX has some sort of conditional SIMD stuff, apparently.
19:55:11 <Fiora> yeah, and they mentioned like, mask registers?
19:55:21 <Fiora> I remember glancing at the Phi and it had a thing kind of like that
19:55:27 <fizzie> It sounds a lot like the FirePath stuff.
19:55:29 <Fiora> so this kind of looks like them stuffing it back into regular AVX?
19:56:11 <fizzie> Fiora: It's a kind of an ARM offspring; there's a small example at http://everything2.com/title/FirePath -- there isn't all that much about it anywhere.
19:56:26 <fizzie> I think I mentioned this before? But maybe it was to someone else.
19:56:29 <HackEgo> *poof* <zzo38> When you die in Canada, you die in real life.
19:57:03 <Fiora> that's... interesting O_O
19:57:14 <Fiora> I wonder how shuffles would work in something like that
19:57:24 <Bike> clearly i was on the mark about asm here >_>
19:57:31 <boily> but, but, that was an important part of the Canadian Lore!
19:57:36 <HackEgo> 367) <oerjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada. \ 995) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
19:58:28 <elliott> it's a zzo quote and it's on quote number 666, what's more to like
19:58:32 <elliott> also did delquote get broken?
19:58:40 <Bike> Fiora: jsvine asked what languages people use and i said asm/machine code stuff.
19:58:48 <elliott> I wonder why I get all these weird display issues with mosh
19:58:54 <shachaf> it's not a zzo quote, it's an xkcd quote or something
19:58:56 <fizzie> The eight opmask registers (k0 .. k7) of AVX-512 sound a lot like FirePath's "predicate registers".
19:59:04 <fizzie> Except bigger, since it's a wider SIMD.
19:59:04 <elliott> it says <zzo38> right there!
19:59:07 <Bike> people here use*
19:59:11 <shachaf> it doesn't belong in the database
19:59:35 <Fiora> fizzie: how big are they, like, 32 bits?
19:59:51 <Fiora> and I guess each bit would affect 32 bit chunks of the operation
20:02:40 <olsner> apparently, in 32-bit mode, EVEX only gives you 8 vector registers
20:02:45 <HackEgo> 999) <Bike> It's like narnia only with dicks
20:02:54 <Fiora> I guess that's consistent at least
20:03:03 <HackEgo> 888) <coppro> GreyKnight: for instance, you can form a poset category from a bunch of tiles <GreyKnight> oh, that's why somebody was conflating category theory with bathroom interior design the other day :-D
20:03:45 <Bike> bad quotes, imo.
20:04:37 <HackEgo> 777) <oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations
20:04:49 <fizzie> Fiora: The AVX-512 opmask registers? Apparently those are 64 bits, though I don't quite know why, since they only deal with 32-bit or 64-bit vector elements, and even 512/32 is just 16. (Room for extensions?)
20:04:52 <boily> seems like theres a Repdigit Quote Curse.
20:05:25 <Fiora> fizzie: the opmask registers can't be used for 8-bit and 16-bit ops?
20:05:53 <elliott> I like 999 but not 888 or 777
20:05:59 <olsner> looks like the instructions for modifying the opmask registers only work on 16 bits, so I wonder why they are 64-bit in the first place
20:06:05 <kmc> hi elliott
20:06:08 <HackEgo> 555) <fizzie> I prefer the N64 controller, it's the only one that has place for my third hand.
20:06:22 <fizzie> Fiora: "Each bit of the opmask register governs one vector element operation (a vector element can be of 32 bits or 64 bits)."
20:06:22 <Fiora> that is really strange @_@ I hope they explain things better...
20:06:32 <Fiora> AVX-512 doesn't support integers? >_<
20:06:42 * Fiora withdraws her offer of homemade cookies to intel
20:06:56 <olsner> e.g. KANDW: Bitwise AND 16 bits masks k2 and k3 and place result in k1.
20:07:59 <fizzie> olsner: Perhaps they'll add KANDD and KANDQ etc. when they have use for more bits.
20:08:31 <Fiora> geez, they have new instructions too? I wonder why they couldn't just, like, call it "AND"
20:08:35 <Fiora> and like, extent AND to work on k registers?
20:08:52 <kmc> maybe to avoid confusing old assemblers / disassemblers
20:09:07 <fizzie> Fiora: It's a three-argument AND, though.
20:09:15 <fizzie> I mean, they added all those V's, too?
20:09:54 <Fiora> it's actually kind of weird. like, now x86 has a 3-argument ANDN, but a 2-argument AND
20:10:03 <Fiora> the way they're extending things is confusingly inconsistent
20:11:03 <Fiora> I hope I can remember it all...
20:11:16 <olsner> if it was suddenly consistent now, that would be wildly inconsistent with how previous extensions have always been inconsistent
20:11:23 <fizzie> VEXTRACTi64x4 "extract 256-bits of quadword integer values from the source operand (the second operand) and store to the low 256-bit of the destination operand (the first operand). The 256-bit data extraction occurs at an 256-bit granular offset specified by imm8[0] as the multiply factor The desination register may be either a vector register or a 256-bit memory location."
20:11:33 <fizzie> It all sounds very complicated.
20:11:49 <fizzie> The lack of punctuation is also in the original.
20:12:07 <Fiora> VEXTRACTi64x4.... @___@
20:12:17 <Fiora> they didn't just call it vextracti256? geez, they called it vextracti128...
20:12:30 <Fiora> I... I think if I'm readnig it right it works the same way too...
20:12:35 <elliott> learning arithmetic with intel
20:12:42 <kmc> elliott: in b4 FDIV bug
20:12:44 <fizzie> Fiora: There's VEXTRACTi128, VEXTRACTi32x4 and VEXTRACTi64x4.
20:12:57 <Fiora> ..... @_@ wait um how is i32x4 different from i128
20:13:06 <elliott> looks like they're still no good at arithmetic
20:13:11 <fizzie> Fiora: It has an update granularity of 32 bits and takes the writemask into account.
20:13:24 <Fiora> update granularity...?
20:13:32 <kmc> Fiora: I'm amused by the idea of you filling a box with homemade cookies and then mailing it to Intel, 2200 Mission College Blvd., Santa Clara, CA 95054-1549
20:13:33 <Fiora> So like... it's a scatter operation...?
20:13:36 <kmc> I wonder what would happen
20:13:37 <fizzie> Fiora: IOW, you can have one of those opmask registers involved.
20:13:41 <boily> update granularity, straight from /r/vxjunkies.
20:13:43 <fizzie> Fiora: (With an element size of 32 bits.)
20:13:44 <kmc> interns deputized as food tasters
20:13:46 <shachaf> can i have homemade cookies
20:13:53 <Fiora> so like, if I have
20:13:54 <Bike> are you not intel?
20:14:04 <kmc> shachaf: yes, come to SF sometime and we can bake cookies together
20:14:05 <Fiora> xmm0 = ABCD zmm1 = EFGH IJKL MNOP QRST
20:14:06 <boily> I am skeleton jelly.
20:14:08 <elliott> kmc: maybe intel would send chips back (hilarious)
20:14:17 <Fiora> I can use vextracti32x4 to extract EFGH with a write mask of 1101 to get EFCH?
20:14:29 <Fiora> am I getting it right, or...?
20:14:39 <fizzie> Fiora: I believe so, yes.
20:14:56 <Fiora> that's... I guess kind of cool? it'd be nice if they let us, like, pull any 4 arbitrary 32s though XD
20:15:27 <shachaf> imo when do we get MMOR and MXOR hth
20:15:47 <fizzie> Fiora: You can pull any of EFGH, IJKL, MNOP or QRST, already.
20:15:57 <fizzie> Fiora: But you can't pull out GHIJ, for example.
20:16:04 <Fiora> okay, that makes sense...
20:16:11 <Fiora> and I can't get FNQT
20:16:48 <Fiora> huh, though... like... they have an i32x4 and i128, but they have an i64x4 and no i256... I wonder why
20:17:13 <fizzie> And the VEXTRACTi64x4 could pull out either (masked) EFGH IJKL or MNOP QRST.
20:17:38 <Fiora> that makes sense...
20:18:50 <fizzie> Fiora: Also, 512-bit registers, so zmm1 = EFGH IJKL MNOP QRST UVWX YZuh oh I ran out of letters.
20:19:00 <Fiora> I usually start using lowercase ^^;
20:19:36 <Fiora> it gets awkward when I have to represent multiple registers though and then it's like oh gosh english can I have more letters
20:19:39 <Fiora> and then I start using kana
20:19:43 <olsner> ... here I was boggling at E..T already
20:19:53 <fizzie> zmm0 = ABCD EFGH IJKL MNOP QRST UVWX YZab cdef, zmm1 = ghij klmn opqr stuv wxyz how do I type Greek on this?
20:20:14 <Fiora> I end up having to diagram things a lot so >_<
20:20:50 * kmc :psyduck:s at all of this
20:20:59 <shachaf> do your diagrams ever commute
20:22:04 <Bike> category theory joke.
20:22:49 <fizzie> I wonder if soon the "opcode/instruction" fields are categorically longer than the "description" field in the tables. I mean, EVEX.512.66.0F3A.W0 39 /r ib VEXTRACTI32x4 xmm1/m128 {k1}{z}, zmm2, imm8.
20:23:47 <olsner> maybe they'll start using UUIDs as opcodes (to save space in the tables)
20:25:22 <fizzie> You can use the opmask to select arbitrary floats/doubles out of the register and write them into a contiguous vector in memory, which sounds quite funky.
20:25:35 <boily> hi neena! who are you?
20:25:51 <Fiora> so, like... EVEX.512.66.0F3A.W0 is... four bytes...?
20:26:00 <HackEgo> neena: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:26:03 <jsvine> zzo38: neat. I'm having a little trouble running the program — probably because I refused to download the 2.2-gig full version of MacTeX and instead opted for the 80Mb "basic" version — but I think I catch the drift.
20:26:47 <neena> I am a failure at lurking, boily.
20:26:49 <fizzie> Fiora: I think so, yes. 0x62 and then three bytes of bits.
20:27:10 <Fiora> I thought the EVEX was a two-byte prefix or something?
20:27:15 <Fiora> like, it was an extra byte plus the VEX or something?
20:27:20 <olsner> it's a four-byte prefix :)
20:27:34 <olsner> and VEX is three bytes or something
20:27:44 <Fiora> I thought VEX was one byte, plus an opcode, or...?
20:28:25 * Fiora really is bad at all of this >_<
20:28:40 <olsner> EVEX is a 4-Byte prefix (the first byte must be 62H); VEX is either a 2-Byte (C5H is the first byte) or 3-Byte (C4H is the first byte) prefix.
20:28:43 <fizzie> Fiora: The encoding parts of the guide says it's 62H, [R X B R' 0 0 m m] [W v v v v 1 p p] [z L' L b V' a a a], where all those letters are bits.
20:29:53 <fizzie> EVEX.mm is two low bits of VEX.mmmmm, and EVEX.pp is a copy of VEX.pp, and vvvv is the same as VEX.vvvv, so it does have some of the same fields.
20:30:56 <Fiora> geez I am just even trying to understand the avx encoding scheme like the regular one and wow
20:30:59 <fizzie> (And I guess you can't again use EVEX in 32-bit mode because 62H is the ES segment override prefix there.)
20:31:18 <Fiora> ooooh. so they reused a segment prefix
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20:31:39 <fizzie> They're angling for a "best reuse of a segment prefix" award.
20:31:48 <Fiora> they've reused them before?
20:32:25 -!- atehwa has joined.
20:32:53 <fizzie> I don't know whether they have, but I'm sure you can still get an award.
20:33:09 <fizzie> VEX prefixes are... reused segment-register loading instructions?
20:33:23 <olsner> fizzie: the manual I found says it's possible to use EVEX in 32-bit mode
20:34:11 <fizzie> olsner: Which manual is this? (I have probably the same manual where you quoted that last line from open.)
20:34:49 <coppro> probably the royal sign manula
20:34:50 <olsner> it's not very explicit about it but "Table 4-3. EVEX Encoding Register Specifiers in 32-bit Mode"
20:35:20 <fizzie> "The EVEX prefix is a 4-byte prefix, with the first two bytes derived from unused encoding form of the 32-bit-mode-only BOUND instruction," says the manual, too.
20:35:39 <fizzie> Maybe I looked at a wrong column of the opcode map.
20:36:11 <olsner> speaking of BOUND, if you have the same manual it'll also describe a set of "MPX" extensions
20:37:12 <olsner> which seems to be a set of registers for storing bounds of buffers and a bunch of instructions to do checked memory accesses
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20:42:41 <fizzie> I can't quite figure out how it works in 32-bit mode, but I guess it does if they say so. (62H is BOUND, the P0 byte is fixed as xxxx00xx, and considered as a ModR/M byte that would mean high bit of RM and low bit of reg is 0, but I don't see how that makes it an "unused encoding form".)
20:46:32 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/jUFc that certainly looks like the two first bytes of a EVEX prefix to me.
20:51:56 <fizzie> olsner: Table 4-3 seems very much limited compared to Table 4-2, anyway. At least it seems restricted to 8 registers (3 bits) in 32-bit mode.
20:52:45 <Fiora> is it wrong if I like... I have this desire for a pmovmskb/movmskps that outputs to an opmask
20:52:47 <fizzie> Ohhhh, right, of course; since 32-bit mode only uses the vvv bits of EVEX, they can select a second byte such that it encodes a register operand in the R/M field, which isn't used for BOUND, making it an unused pattern.
20:53:12 <Fiora> VPCONFLICTD/Q @___@
20:53:29 <Fiora> that... wow that actually seems really cool
20:53:34 <Fiora> 32-way duplicate detection!
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20:54:53 <Fiora> Bike: "VEXP2PD—Approximation to the Exponential 2^x of Packed Double-Precision Floating-PointValues with Less Than 2^-23 Relative Error" the longest instruction description XD
20:55:27 <fizzie> Fiora: Apparently there's a separate "AVX-512 Conflict Detection" extension, with its own CPUID bit, that VPCONFLICT/VPLZCNT/friends comes from.
20:55:58 <Fiora> I guess some of those instructions might be just for the Phi ?
20:56:35 <Fiora> "sparse prefetch" wow
20:56:49 <fizzie> "Knights Landing will support three sets of capabilities to augment the foundation instructions. This is documented in the programmer’s guide; they are known as Intel AVX-512 Conflict Detection Instructions (CDI), Intel AVX-512 Exponential and Reciprocal Instructions (ERI) and Intel AVX-512 Prefetch Instructions (PFI)."
20:57:14 <fizzie> Knights Landing is (as far as I can tell) still a Phi thing, but it has the "Xeon Phi as a host processor" form too.
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20:57:44 <Fiora> "This chapter describes a family of inst
20:57:44 <Fiora> ruction extensions that target the acceleration of the Secure Hash Algorithm
20:57:46 <Fiora> (SHA), specifically the SHA-1 and SHA-256 variants"
20:57:57 <Fiora> Intel Bitcoin Extensions? xD
20:58:56 <boily> we're going to have a (probably mob funded) bitcoin here in Montréal!
20:59:05 <boily> s/bitcoin/bitcoin building/
20:59:10 <fizzie> Fiora: Ooh, it's like copying VIA PadLock from the whenever-it-was-but-it-was-a-long-time-ago.
20:59:28 <fizzie> It's a crypto-engine integrated in VIA C7 and VIA Eden.
20:59:36 <Fiora> oooh. well I guess they already have some of it, right?
20:59:40 <Fiora> RDRAND and AES-NI?
20:59:45 <fizzie> It did SHA-1, SHA-256 at five gigs/second, and AES, and RDRAND.
20:59:54 <fizzie> (Well, not "RDRAND", but random number generation.)
21:00:11 <fizzie> So, yes, they've been just slowly picking up its features.
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21:01:47 <comex> i just want Python with HLE
21:02:01 <olsner> hmm, so the two bits fixed to 0 have nothing to do with making it an invalid BOUND instruction?
21:02:13 <comex> actually, why do I even care
21:02:20 <fizzie> The logical next step would be to pick up the last missing PadLock feature, which is I think some sort of modular multiplication helper for RSA.
21:02:28 <comex> it's too slow to be sufficiently performant for anything CPU bound with or without threads
21:02:35 <comex> well, it would be cool for pypy
21:02:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:02:48 <Fiora> geez MPX looks complicated
21:02:50 <fizzie> olsner: Not as far as I can tell, since (according to Table 4-3) none of the other P0 bits are used for anything in 32-bit mode, so it can be chosen freely.
21:03:06 <Fiora> is CLMUL that? or no, that's... carry-less multiplication
21:03:23 -!- Bike has joined.
21:03:23 <fizzie> olsner: (The fixed 1 bit certainly doesn't.)
21:04:22 <Fiora> how does modular multiplication in software usually work...?
21:04:26 <fizzie> Fiora: It has something to do with doing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_multiplication but all the first results were too PR-y to go in detail.
21:05:03 <fizzie> I guess that link's a good answer to that question, though.
21:05:11 <fizzie> (Assuming that's what they use, I'unno.)
21:11:25 <fizzie> This broadcast thing in AVX-512 seems quite fancy too.
21:12:41 <kmc> boily: bitcoin building?? o_O
21:13:11 <Fiora> is it different from like, vpbroadcastw or similar?
21:14:39 <fizzie> Fiora: It's "embedded", you can set a bit in the EVEX prefix, and it will load only 32 (or 64) bits from a memory operand and broadcast it into a full-width operand.
21:15:20 <Fiora> ooh. that's kind of cool
21:16:22 <boily> kmc: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=235422.0
21:17:25 <elliott> bitcoin embassy...........
21:19:24 <Bike> ♠♠♠ Bit777.com ♠♠♠ THE PRIME BITCOIN CASINO FEATURING 50+ GAMES. ♠♠♠ PLAY TO WIN BTC NOW! ♠♠♠
21:19:47 <boily> I prefer homemade cookies.
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22:10:16 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 i do not think it is always possible to find the contents of a backflip program by running it from chosen edges. in particular if you have a region bounded entirely by inwards pointing arrows you will never be able to say anything about its interior.
22:10:57 <Bike> the "event horizon" principle of reverse engineering
22:11:19 <Bike> oerjan: does zzo want the program text or just something operationally identical, though?
22:12:53 <oerjan> <zzo38> (You don't have to specify the direction of a mirror or arrow, although you do have to specify it is a mirror, arrow, empty, or output, and if it is output then you do have to specify its value.)
22:13:21 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 well, ignoring output.
22:13:31 <elliott> oerjan: but that interior cannot change how the program behaves, right?
22:13:42 <Bike> that's what i meant
22:14:28 <Bike> does backflip have spooky action at a distance
22:14:50 <oerjan> elliott: that was my point
22:15:01 <oerjan> except for output which is an extension
22:15:27 <elliott> oerjan: right, but I mean, you can obtain something equivalent to the original program in terms of behaviour maybe, and which is unchanged if you analyse it again?
22:16:28 <oerjan> elliott: yes. but i didn't get the impression zzo38 was doing that, which is why i asked.
22:17:04 <oerjan> in fact in order to do that, you _would_ want the player to specify all directions, so you could simulate whether eir solution does the right thing
22:17:17 <Bike> is backflip turing-complete (or rather, can programs in finite space go indefinitely before halting)
22:17:46 <oerjan> isn't that mentioned in the article.
22:17:57 <Bike> i haven't been looking at the article. reading's for nerds.
22:18:08 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BackFlip#Computational_class
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22:40:32 <kmc> shachaf: my exciting discovery today is that in Servo, make RUSTFLAGS="-Z debug-info" actually kinda works and you can use objdump -S and get Rust code interleaved with asm!
22:40:54 <kmc> which is v. useful for decoding my myriad stack backtraces
22:41:35 <shachaf> does it slow down compilation
22:43:30 <shachaf> kmc: i wish i had an implicit binder for all my scattered paper
22:44:45 <kmc> i saw one of these up on a board at mozilla http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/shivkaladrakh/tearable20puns.png
22:45:05 <Fiora> those things are amazing XD
22:45:53 <shachaf> i find it odd that Fiora likes puns but doesn't like other forms of humour which seem similar to me
22:46:13 <kmc> which forms?
22:47:19 <shachaf> i don't know, a lot of things i say for one
22:47:38 <shachaf> usually some form of viewing the world under a different assumption or perspective and seeing what happens
22:47:42 <Bike> i was just guaghaghing at the pun.
22:47:51 <shachaf> i'm bad at explaining what i mean so i'll stop :'(
22:48:01 <kmc> shachaf: I didn't test if it slows down compilation, but not enough for me to notice without testing
22:48:08 <kmc> rustc is pretty slow overall :/
22:48:22 <shachaf> kmc: imo that kind of thing should be the default if it doesn't
22:48:23 <kmc> and doesn't parallelize well because the unit of together-compilation is large
22:48:31 <kmc> shachaf: presumably it makes the binaries bigger, maybe a lot bigger
22:53:44 <kmc> shachaf: is the tao a zero knowledge proof
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23:04:12 <oerjan> elliott: incidentally tatham's black box puzzle works the way you suggest.
23:04:17 <shachaf> kmc: wouldn't it be great if people found a sha-1 collision that way
23:06:03 <kmc> (for context: https://github.com/kmcallister/servo/commit/350c0a61c6c705b2f4c1b095064ee337f17a1c9e https://github.com/mozilla/servo/commit/350c0a61c6c705b2f4c1b095064ee337f17a1c9e are not the same commit at all)
23:06:13 <kmc> the former matches my local repo
23:06:39 <shachaf> as they used to say at my preschool: sha sha sha, sheket bvakasha
23:06:45 <shachaf> (p. sure that's how they pronounced it)
23:06:45 <kmc> whatsit mean
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23:07:03 <oerjan> not sure if undead does, or just guarantees a unique solution.
23:07:11 <shachaf> "sheket bvakasha" is "quiet please" or so
23:08:59 <elliott> sha sha sha, shachaf bvakasha
23:09:25 <elliott> kmc: whoa what's with that
23:09:41 -!- Bike has joined.
23:09:45 <oerjan> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Sheket%20Bevakashah
23:10:27 <kmc> everything you know is wrong, hth
23:11:28 <elliott> do you actually know what's up or not
23:12:03 <shachaf> it's a sha-1 collision hth
23:12:14 <shachaf> https://github.com/mozilla/servo/commit/fe91f6e238acd9e423d98c18c906416be3090eb3
23:12:17 <oerjan> if you follow the link to hebrew hammer read only the first item twh
23:12:45 <elliott> but I'll stop asking since it doesn't look like anyone will reply seriously
23:13:01 <shachaf> elliott: you know approx. what anyone else know
23:13:06 <shachaf> it looks like a github bug
23:15:15 <Bike> so could you practically find collisions by trawling a site with lotsa shas like that
23:15:40 <Bike> i guess none of them would be very useful collisions
23:15:57 <shachaf> any sha1 collision would be a big deal
23:16:27 <shachaf> there's none publicly known collision at the moment anyway
23:16:56 <shachaf> but p. sure all of github's activity generates way fewer hashes than one gpu
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23:17:46 <ajf> Anyone want to write an actual program in DevPerc? :3
23:17:47 <ajf> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator
23:20:53 <kmc> oh mystery solved, I accidentally created a branch named 350c0a61c6c705b2f4c1b095064ee337f17a1c9e
23:21:00 <oerjan> shachaf: gerates? what kind of nonsense is this!
23:21:13 <Fiora> kmc: oh wow, impressive
23:21:25 <shachaf> oerjan: misspelling of "gyrates" hth
23:22:02 <ajf> I'm confused by my own programming language
23:22:13 <Bike> what's confusing
23:22:17 <ajf> I'm trying to write an implementation of cat, which reads one char, spits it out, and repeats
23:22:37 <ajf> however since variable state changes the interpretation of the source code in DevPerc, I'm getting confused :P
23:22:40 <shachaf> i wrote on this page upside down accidentally so now i turned it over and all my As look like foralls
23:22:47 <elliott> kmc: what happens if you collide a branch name and a commit hash?
23:22:55 <kmc> well we just found out...........
23:23:02 <kmc> a) you confuse the everliving shit out of the Mozilla build bot
23:23:08 <kmc> b) you confuse a bunch of humans too
23:23:14 <kmc> c) you look like a dumbass in front of GitHub support staff
23:23:19 <Bike> ajf: isn't it just GET A PUT A IF 1 PROCEEDTO 0
23:23:35 <elliott> seems like it should default to the commit
23:23:38 <elliott> since how else do you access it
23:23:51 <ajf> DEFINE M TO SIXTYFIVE
23:23:59 <kmc> elliott: yeah and you could still name the branch as refs/heads/350c0a61c6c705b2f4c1b095064ee337f17a1c9e
23:24:07 <kmc> but it's not surprising that Git makes the wrong UI choice
23:24:14 <ajf> Will do the first character. Now I have to do some sort of circus so that "A" means "A" again and "GET A" will work
23:24:19 <ajf> oh and somehow correct "M"
23:24:32 <Bike> ajf: what's wrong with mine...
23:24:57 <ajf> Bike: In devperc, if you change the value of a variable, it changes the character it reads in the sourcecode
23:25:31 <ajf> once you've done "GET A" you can't refer to A as A
23:25:52 <ajf> in fact, if they inputted a lowercase character, it's a syntax error!
23:26:20 <Bike> so can't you just do DEFINE M TO M next
23:27:27 <ajf> also, there are no digits here. Only English numerical constants. So you can't use a letter that's in the name of a numerical constant!
23:28:43 <oerjan> ajf: what about doing DEFINE M TO SIXTYFIVE \ GET M \ PUT M instead?
23:29:48 <shachaf> hey you know the way a cone is just a natural transformation from the diagonal functor
23:30:16 <ajf> oerjan: uhh
23:30:27 <Bike> you still have to repair M, though.
23:30:30 <ajf> no you can't do that
23:30:39 <ajf> since now that last line is PUT <whatever stdin returned>
23:30:59 <Bike> no, shouldn't the GET M become GET A?
23:32:00 <Bike> Maybe it would be good to simplify this somewhat, both the syntax and the evaluation semantics.
23:32:23 <ajf> oh, oerjan's thing works
23:32:35 <ajf> Bike: simplyify the syntax? Then it wouldn't be hard! :P
23:32:42 <ajf> it's intentionally verbose :D
23:32:57 <Bike> well, you could make it hard in a rigorous way, in order to make the real thing hard in a more interesting way.
23:44:10 <ajf> shouldn't DEFINE M TO SIXTYFIVE, GET M, PUT M, IF ONE PROCEEDTO ONE - work?
23:44:37 <ajf> because it doesn't
23:45:00 <Bike> no, because next time around M is something else
23:45:03 <ajf> oh. I see why it doesn't
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23:45:07 <Bike> it could be E or something that messes up the rest of the program
23:45:12 <ajf> GET X ...X is an expression evaluating to the name of a register.
23:45:28 <ajf> hence, in source, M -> A, then A evaluates to <input>
23:45:36 <ajf> so, let's redefine Z
23:46:22 <Bike> I think programming would be pretty easy if DEFINE evaluated its first operand. Then you could just refer to variables indirectly with numbers.
23:46:48 <ajf> ...you actually could do that
23:46:53 <ajf> I never considered that
23:47:14 <ajf> programming in devperc may be semi-practical
23:47:18 <ajf> curse you, Bike! :P
23:47:32 <Bike> i am the wettest blanket.
23:48:15 <ajf> I got it to work
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23:48:59 <ajf> DEFINE M TO SIXTYFIVE, DEFINE Z TO SEVENTYSEVEN, GET Z, PUT M, IF ONE PROCEEDTO TWO
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23:50:48 <ajf> Great, now I actually have a useful program example
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23:55:21 <Bike> reminded me more of ti-86.
23:56:52 <ajf> Lumpio-: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator
23:57:11 <kmc> DEFINE M TO SIXTYTEN, DEFINE Z TO TWOISM
00:05:31 <ajf> I wrote another example
00:05:41 <ajf> crap, I think writing semi-useful programs is possible
00:06:24 <Bike> see, this is an advantage of formalization.
00:06:43 <Bike> once you strip away obfuscation, you can get a formalism that is itself fucked, and go from there. this woulda been more obvious without the smoke!
00:08:33 <FreeFull> It's not turing complete, but I wonder how powerful it is
00:09:31 <ajf> well, only today have I discovered its power
00:09:36 <ajf> ...two years after creating it
00:10:47 <ajf> here's another semi-useful program! http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator#Countdown
00:10:54 <ajf> proving you can indeed write loops in this thing
00:12:31 <FreeFull> It does have a conditional jump
00:13:54 <ajf> the thing was I didn't realise there was any practical way to change a variable's value multiple times and keep track of it
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00:16:15 * oerjan learns that #haskell activity has decreased since 2009
00:17:17 <elliott> oerjan: note that lambdabot used to announce the title of every link.
00:17:26 <elliott> (and lambdabot activity has also decreased.)
00:18:22 <ajf> shame I didn't include any trig functions in DevPerc
00:18:26 * shachaf learns that #rust activity is at an all-time high.
00:18:34 <shachaf> last i checked kmc was also at an all-time high
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00:19:27 <oerjan> shachaf: don't joke, he _has_ already offered you cookies you know
00:20:06 <kmc> I won't drug shachaf
00:20:12 <kmc> that's Not Cool
00:20:39 <shachaf> not without permission at least??
00:20:58 <oerjan> i've learned from browsing r/all in previous days that r/trees is all about cookies.
00:21:44 <shachaf> kmc: when we were in SF i was going to make a drugz joke when someone talked about setting off fireworks while "surrounded by trees""""
00:21:45 <oerjan> lol#, is that the .net derivative of lol?
00:22:02 <kmc> it's an unboxed lol
00:22:19 <kmc> shachaf: yeah if you asked for some, that would be different
00:22:28 <kmc> also i'm glad you approve of the term 'trees'
00:22:31 <shachaf> a cosmic giggle on the breath of the universe
00:22:37 <kmc> TREEEEEEEEEEES
00:22:46 <kmc> i'm not sure
00:22:57 <shachaf> it's a p. popular term at stanford
00:23:13 <kmc> also ++ for remembering the cosmic giggle quote
00:23:22 <kmc> also I didn't know you know stanford things
00:23:32 <shachaf> well i do live right by it
00:23:58 <oerjan> <ajf> shame I didn't include any trig functions in DevPerc <-- bit tricky with only integers, no?
00:24:06 <shachaf> if nothing else there are people with "party with trees" shirts and a stanford logo on the back
00:24:10 <shachaf> which i assume is a drugz joke??
00:24:29 <kmc> seems likely
00:24:39 <Bike> oerjan: obviously SINE OF X should be sin(x*pi)
00:24:44 <kmc> is the stanford logo tree El Palo Alto?
00:25:17 <ajf> oerjan: round(sin(x*180/Math.PI)*128 +127)
00:25:19 <oerjan> Bike: i admit that _is_ simple
00:25:21 <shachaf> does kmc answer his own questions?
00:25:57 <shachaf> it's also the mascot or something
00:26:01 <Bike> ajf: degrees?? get out
00:26:56 <oerjan> yeah make that *128 instead
00:28:08 <ajf> Bike: yes, degrees are inappropriate
00:28:15 <ajf> it would make more sense to use a 0-255 scale
00:29:18 <ajf> I could add some "character" to the language by adding COSEC and SEC, but not SINE or COSINE :P
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00:33:46 <ajf> fun fact: sin^2(x) = 4/(cosec^2(x/2) + sec^2(x/2))
00:34:28 <Bike> now do sin(sin(x))
00:35:30 <ajf> it looks mostly like a normal sine graph
00:35:44 <elliott> f^2(x) as notation for f(x)^2 is :(
00:36:22 <Bike> let's just use exp instead of everything.
00:36:47 <shachaf> elliott: esp.ly when you use sin¯¹ to mean the inverse of sin
00:37:06 <shachaf> i don't know what the inverse of sin is but i bet Fiora has mmitted it
00:38:29 <shachaf> kmc: i didn't know you were half-methodist
00:39:36 <kmc> actually I did go to a methodist church for a while
00:39:41 <kmc> don't really have any interesting stories about it
00:40:00 <kmc> I think I took church somewhat more seriously than my parents intended, and I'm slightly pissed off about it still
00:40:12 <shachaf> Fiora: it's like the dual of "committed"
00:40:28 <Bike> that makes impressively little sense
00:40:34 <Bike> well not impressively.
00:40:45 <shachaf> maybe i should've said cosin
00:40:53 <shachaf> kmc: is that why you say things like "religion is a personality flaw"
00:41:11 <Fiora> I don't understand...
00:41:27 <Bike> that's because it doesn't make sense.
00:42:46 <Bike> D(sin^n) = D(sin^(n-1)) * (cos . sin^(n-1))
00:42:50 <Bike> that's kinda neat.
00:43:01 <Bike> where ^n is composition, as god/elliott intended.
00:43:13 <shachaf> Bike: hey you should've been at conal's talk about automatic differentiation
00:43:55 <Bike> I don't know what the other one is
00:44:15 <Bike> kmc: have you considered manichaeism
00:44:28 <Bike> oh, still cali.
00:46:30 <shachaf> Bike: Well, conal used to live in WA.
00:46:35 <shachaf> But then you didn't say hi so he moved.
00:48:16 <Bike> http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development-professionals-network/2013/jul/24/open-source-drug-discovery-research i think my favorite part of open source culture is all the parts that have nothing to do with computer programming
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00:52:04 <Bike> my least favorite part is stallman whining in the comments there
00:52:44 <Lumpio-> good grief that walloftextcomment
00:53:42 <Bike> https://id.guardian.co.uk/profile/rmstallman/public
00:56:41 <Bike> the other joke here is that i guess stallman likes nader?
00:57:37 <Bike> or pseudo stallman as the case may be.
01:00:23 <kmc> shachaf: do you think the use of uintptr_t here is a little odd? https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/master/src/rt/rust_log.cpp#L321-L325
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01:06:26 <Bike> isn't there %p or something
01:06:35 <kmc> the originals are size_t
01:06:40 <kmc> so %z would work but it's maybe a glibc extension
01:06:47 <kmc> but I will just cast them to unsigned long instead
01:06:50 <Bike> oh, that's weird
01:07:02 <kmc> Linux kernel code has a policy of "fuck it, unsigned long is the one true type"
01:07:20 <Bike> i assume that's a torvalds quote
01:07:30 <kmc> they definitely assume pointers fit in an unsigned long
01:07:34 <kmc> but you can do that when you're a kernel
01:07:36 <Fiora> kmc: I actually ran into a crash bug at work on windows
01:07:40 <Fiora> where a log message used %z, I think
01:07:43 <kmc> and refuse to build on compilers other than gcc
01:08:08 <Fiora> and because windows interpreted the message differently, it dereferenced a non-pointer as a pointer
01:15:11 <Gracenotes> abstraction is an obstacle that makes it hard to build features
01:15:38 <Gracenotes> the wrong feature is easier to change than the wrong abstraction
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01:55:53 <comex> kmc: %zu is standard
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04:04:03 <Gracenotes> I like the annotated UI of /r/rust, btw
04:05:33 <Bike> is that a word
04:06:00 <oerjan> it is, but not for uis afaik
04:06:07 <oerjan> it applies to wine tasting
04:06:32 <Gracenotes> that is one such use. as with all French terms, they have to make it about food/drink
04:08:16 <Gracenotes> or I guess you could use 'ambiance', but who wants English words
04:09:48 <Gracenotes> Anyway, it's like those designs that use Cyrillic/Hebrew characters to write English. Except it's using syntax, and of a programming language.
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04:21:05 <shachaf> Hmm, I think I'm going to be sick in the next few days. :-(
04:23:11 <Gracenotes> Hope you get better after getting worse soon
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07:08:53 <Vorpal> How the hell do you write "const char* const *myVar;" in a sensible way in C? "const char * const * myVar;"? It doesn't fit into my normal pattern of "type *var;"
07:09:35 <Vorpal> That is, how should the spaces be done.
07:09:52 <shachaf> const is like a subscript. *_{const}
07:10:26 <Bike> typedef const char * const * vorpal; vorpal blade; clearly
07:11:41 <Vorpal> I think I could make it const char *const *const myVar actually, since i never change it after assignment (it is set early in main() and read far outside of main)
07:12:11 <Vorpal> /home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/src/main.c:264:5: warning: will never be executed [-Wunreachable-code]
07:12:22 <Vorpal> GCC complains if I remove the break!
07:12:29 <Vorpal> Clang complains if I have the break.
07:12:50 <Bike> shachaf is on the mark here.
07:13:22 <Vorpal> shachaf, I guess GCC isn't really smart about non-standard abort functions, even if that function does call abort in the end
07:13:44 <Vorpal> shachaf, does unicode even work in that context?!
07:13:45 <comex> Vorpal: consider adding __attribute__((noreturn)) as needed
07:14:14 <shachaf> Maybe you'll need a space after the ★, though. Not so great.
07:14:43 <Gracenotes> "Innovative? Not really innovative. Ever since the Ipad came out, that was the last innovation."
07:15:08 <shachaf> Gracenotes: innovation in trolling technologies
07:15:24 <Vorpal> comex, hm good point. But what about other compilers then? Even though we can obviously hide the attribute from them, they won't understand that
07:15:27 <shachaf> Vorpal: Speaking of which, "char* x;" is the devil. You should use "char *x;" everywhere.
07:15:38 <Vorpal> shachaf, that is what I do as I said
07:15:42 <Vorpal> "It doesn't fit into my normal pattern of "type *var;""
07:15:46 <comex> Vorpal: actually, C11 has stdnoreturn.h and compilers actually support it these days
07:15:57 <comex> well, some of them
07:17:17 <comex> then either use an ifdef and __attribute__, or turn off that stupid warning
07:17:50 <shachaf> imo burn that bridge when you come to it
07:18:27 <HackEgo> comex: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:19:03 <comex> wow, that's horrible :p
07:19:57 <fizzie> shachaf: You can't (portably) #define ★, macro names must be identifiers and identifiers consist only of [a-z0-9_] or "other implementation-defined characters".
07:20:35 <fizzie> (Or universal-character-name's.)
07:21:26 <comex> nope, not in universal character names
07:21:45 <Bike> c needs a trigram for ★.
07:22:10 <fizzie> I seem to recall that GCC needs a flag before it accepts \uXXXX in identifiers.
07:22:40 <kmc> shachaf: bummer, hope you aren't sick for your birthday and/or trains-doings in SF
07:23:55 <fizzie> Aww, "error: universal character \u2605 is not valid in an identifier" even with -fextended-identifiers.
07:25:08 <fizzie> "Each universal character name in an identifier shall designate a character whose encoding in ISO/IEC 10646 falls into one of the ranges specified in D.1."
07:25:46 <shachaf> kmc: perhaps i will sleep and wake up and see
07:26:07 <kmc> Rust is the only language I know of that specifies a Unicode normalization form for source (NFKC)
07:27:57 <fizzie> D.1 allows 00A8, 00AA, 00AD, 00AF, 00B2-00B5, 00B7-00BA, 00BC-00BE, 00C0-00D6, 00D8-00F6, 00F8-00FF, 0100-167F, 1681-180D, 180F-1FFF, 200B-200D, 202A-202E, 203F-2040, 2054, 2060-206F, 2070-218F, 2460-24FF, 2776-2793, 2C00-2DFF, 2E80-2FFF, 3004-3007, 3021-302F, 3031-303F, 3040-D7FF, F900-FD3D, FD40-FDCF, FDF0-FE44, FE47-FFFD, 10000-1FFFD, 20000-2FFFD, ..., E0000-EFFFD.
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07:30:05 <Vorpal> Why does ungetc() exist?
07:30:20 <fizzie> For easy making of one-character lookahead parsers?
07:30:46 <Vorpal> Hm okay, but that seems like a very minor use case
07:31:19 <Vorpal> Why would you want to do that with newlines?
07:31:26 <fizzie> It doesn't sound all that minor. "Read all the digits but not anything after the last digit", for example, sounds reasonably common.
07:31:54 <Vorpal> Hm I guess so, yeah. I was thinking in terms of language parses
07:32:14 <Vorpal> Which mostly tend to work on lexers anyway
07:32:42 <fizzie> Any set of strings is a language. :p
07:33:06 <shachaf> kmc: oops i meant to send that in this channel
07:33:15 <Vorpal> /home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c:66:30: warning: cast from 'struct sockaddr *' to 'struct sockaddr_in *' increases required alignment from 2
07:33:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `oops'': not found
07:33:26 <Vorpal> Huh, I thought you were supposed to do that
07:33:58 <kmc> Vorpal: me too, awkward
07:34:20 <Gracenotes> if you created it as a sockaddr_in, it should be aligned nicely enough
07:34:34 <shachaf> kmc: not entirely sure what happened but i hope things work out one way or another
07:34:37 <kmc> i'd think struct sockaddr should have the max alignment requirement of any sockaddr_*, so this is a library bug
07:34:38 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
07:34:43 <kmc> thanks shachaf
07:34:53 <Vorpal> Well I do check that the family is AF_INET first, so it should not matter
07:35:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, fungot uses STRN right?
07:35:40 <fungot> Vorpal: firstfew x ( y:ys) m y: o ( drop m ys) m
07:35:47 <Gracenotes> do you see what I mean, though? if you are receiving the pointer from somewhere, the code that instantiated that point should have gotten the alignment right
07:35:53 <Bike> http://www.floodgap.com/software/classilla/
07:35:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: A lot, yes. Especially the Underload bit.
07:36:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you happen to remember if it uses G (get string from fungespace)?
07:36:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm sure it does use both G and P extensively.
07:36:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I found a potential bug in cfunge's G here, thanks to clang's warnings. I use a stringbuffer helper module to build up the char. Which uses char*, not funge cells...
07:37:01 <Vorpal> So it truncates the value. Heh
07:37:38 <Bike> cfunge needs a security audit, clearly
07:37:40 <fizzie> Well, I wouldn't probably have hit that bug, since you can't get anything into the Underload program that isn't in the input that came over IRC.
07:38:06 <Bike> i mean this is just irresponsible, what if someone hacked fungot's server to do something silly.
07:38:07 <fungot> Bike: well yes, that's a urban legend i think. they usually feature manga characters, fan art and some times even nudity and hentai. :p they'll send invitations soon to the people
07:38:34 <Bike> what mode is this. i forget how to check
07:38:38 <Vorpal> Wow, what a life fungot is living
07:38:38 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
07:38:45 <Bike> but of course.
07:38:48 <fizzie> fungot: We've all noticed *that*.
07:38:49 <fungot> fizzie: and the scheme is just loads of interactive fiction in general. there are probably a great deal
07:39:09 <fizzie> (And the other major use of G/P is also related to the IRC messages; I don't think I use G/P for "data strings".)
07:39:49 <kmc> shachaf: I'm trying to change the thing where my default way of dealing with interpersonal conflict is to stop talking to that person forever
07:40:33 <kmc> it's tough because that solution ``works'' 100% of the time and often there is no clear other solution
07:40:46 * Vorpal considers how to make the string buffer module generic with respect to the element size
07:41:18 <fizzie> Templates! Oh, wait, C.
07:41:35 <Bike> implement a templating system through the preprocessor, duh
07:41:35 <fizzie> Templates done with the C preprocessor, then.
07:42:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can of course use macros for that. I do that for my hash library for no particular reason.
07:42:30 <Vorpal> #define SUFFIX _long, #define TYPE long, #include "actual_header.h"
07:42:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, gah you beat me to that, while i was typing
07:43:20 <Vorpal> Anyway the code becomes such a mess, I would not recommend it
07:44:02 <fizzie> I had some sort of a macro-driven templatey thing for a "generic" fixed-size memory-block pool somewhere, it used some build-time helpers to collapse the implementations for all types with the same sizeof into one piece of code. That was also a mess.
07:44:32 <fizzie> Makes me wonder if C++ compilers do that for template instantiations that generate code that only depends on the size of the type.
07:45:39 <Vorpal> Can you use sizeof with the preprocessor or how did you do the size-merging?
07:46:22 <fizzie> Build system scripts that compiled int main(void) { printf("%d", sizeof (TYPE)); } kind of programs and wrote new .h files, or something like that.
07:46:38 <fizzie> (The preprocessor doesn't indeed know about sizeof.)
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07:46:52 <fizzie> Er, %zu and not %d, I hope.
07:47:14 <kmc> GNU Radio uses some Python template system (Cheetah?) to template some of its C files
07:47:42 <kmc> Gecko has a Python script that outputs an expando macro header!!
07:47:52 <Vorpal> Dammit, doing this with a element_size member of the struct is annoying, since I have to do indexing and what not into the array, and write a proper null byte at the end and so on...
07:51:50 <kmc> maybe I'm sad that Rust can't do anything directly analogous to expando macros
07:51:52 <fizzie> If C++ compilers don't innately do it, I'm sure you could do it "manually" with just template <unsigned int N> class sized_pool { ... }; template <class T> class typed_pool : public sized_pool<sizeof (T)> { ...}; kinda thing.
07:52:10 <olsner> some linkers can merge functions that ended up identical
07:52:47 <kmc> I'm not sure if that's a standard name... I mean the thing where you have a file that's like FOO(bacon) \n FOO(celery) and then you can do #define FOO(x) printf("I like to eat " x); \n #include "foods.h"
07:53:02 <Vorpal> Yeah this is too messy, Hm
07:54:59 <fizzie> Though often the file is #define THINGS \\n FOO(bacon) \\n FOO(celery) instead, so that you can #define FOO(x) ... \n THINGS \n #undef FOO \n #define FOO(x) something_else(x) \n THINGS \n #undef FOO.
07:56:11 <fizzie> (I suppose it's not all that different from just #including twice, but at least it lets you stick other stuff in the file than just the list.)
07:56:40 <kmc> that's nice too
07:57:13 <kmc> what are the rules for repeated macro expansion, anyway?
07:58:57 <fizzie> I'm not sure what "repeated macro expansion" here exactly means.
07:59:11 <Vorpal> Aha, got a better solution, make it completely multibyte internally.
07:59:39 <fizzie> The macro replacement rules in general are, I think, kinda tricksy, what with the rescan thing.
08:00:15 <kmc> fizzie: well in this case you have a macro expanding to something which contains another macro (that wasn't "in scope" when the first macro was defined, although I wouldn't expect that to matter)
08:00:43 <Vorpal> I remember the rules for stringification in macros being weird
08:01:04 <Vorpal> Which is why you have to do two layers of macros for it sometimes iirc
08:01:23 <kmc> yeah I've never understood that
08:01:24 <fizzie> "A parameter in the replacement list -- is replaced by the corresponding argument after all macros contained therein have been expanded."
08:01:48 <Vorpal> kmc, I hit the issue once I know, I forgot what exactly trigged it
08:02:07 <fizzie> That's the main rule that, I think, is in play for the above scenario. The replacement list of "THINGS" is "FOO(bacon) FOO(celery)", and "all macros contained therein" will be expanded before plonking it in.
08:03:08 <fizzie> But there's also the rescan: "After all parameters in the replacement list have been substituted -- The resulting preprocessing token sequence is then rescanned, along with all subsequent preprocessing tokens of the source file, for more macro names to replace."
08:03:26 <fizzie> All of it combined makes for pretty unobvious behaviour.
08:04:05 <fizzie> E.g. the first rule I pasted above isn't used when the argument comes immediately after # or ##, which causes that stringification issue.
08:04:51 <fizzie> #define FOO bar #define S(x) #x and then S(FOO) expands to "FOO", because the x in the replacement list follows a # and therefore isn't macro-replaced.
08:05:44 <fizzie> Whereas #define FOO bar #define S(x) S_(x) #define S_(x) #x has S(FOO) expand to "bar", because of S(FOO) -> S_(bar) -> "bar".
08:06:18 <fizzie> (When processing the replacement list "S_(x)", x isn't an argument of # or ##, and therefore gets macro-expanded.)
08:07:33 <fizzie> I think the rationale said something about it being this way so that you can, if you want, stringize the actual non-expanded argument. But it's all still kinda messy.
08:12:25 <fizzie> And the rescan step makes a difference e.g. in #define FOO(x) 1+x #define BAR(x) (2*x) FOO(BAR)(42) where the initial expansion of "FOO(BAR)" is to "1+BAR" which can't macro-expand further, but in the rescan step also the rest of the source file is considered, and the "1+BAR(42)" expands into "1+(2*42)", which it wouldn't if preprocessing continued from the "(42)" without a rescan.
08:15:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh, when does the rescan matter in non-obfuscated code though?
08:16:13 <Vorpal> Because I never seen anyone write FOO(BAR)(42)
08:16:46 <fizzie> I think I've seen someone give an example that was at least slightly more reasonable, but I can't invent one.
08:18:28 <fizzie> The Rationale also gives a intentionally-left-ambiguous example of #define f(a) a*g #define g(a) f(a) f(2)(9) which can legally expand either to the tokens 2*f(9) or 2*9*g, depending on whether the f(9) is counted as "nested" in the expansion of f(2).
08:19:56 <fizzie> "f(2)" expands initially to "2*g", and in the rescan the g is combined with (9) to produce "g(9)", which expands to "f(9)", but then it's ambiguous whether it's still part of the expansion of f(2) in which case f is not available for expansion due to the no-recursion rule, or not.
08:20:33 <fizzie> "The C89 Committee intentionally left this behaviour ambiguous as it saw no useful purpose in specifying all the quirks of preprocessing for such questionably useful constructs."
08:20:46 <Vorpal> Hm there is an issue with snprintf & related function. They return number of chars written as an int.
08:21:01 <Vorpal> Unless my man page is wrong
08:21:30 <fizzie> It's int in the standard. But it can return a negative error code, too.
08:21:46 <fizzie> ssize_t is not standard, though.
08:22:39 <Vorpal> ssize_t is kind of weird, since it basically is smaller than size_t.
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08:23:05 <Vorpal> Unlikely today that sizes won't fit into 63 bits sure
08:23:51 <fizzie> It is a bit of a compromise.
08:24:15 <Vorpal> On a 32-bit system I would assume that means it can't represent anything larger than 2 GB, which is not an unreasonable size on many systems
08:24:53 <fizzie> I suppose it's allowed for ssize_t to be a 65-bit signed type (with a lot of padding), but I don't know of any systems where it isn't just the two's-complement interpretation of size_t.
08:25:23 <fizzie> POSIX just says "ssize_t: Signed integer type used for a count of bytes or an error indication."
08:44:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, a couple of the other STRN functions also have similar issues, such as using libc's strstr, strcmp and similar.
08:44:30 <Vorpal> Not sure what I was thinking when writing this
08:44:57 <Vorpal> obviously not an issue for the IO functions, but for the rest...
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09:30:01 <Vorpal> switch (sizeof (longword))
09:30:02 <Vorpal> case 4: magic_bits = 0x7efefeffL; break;
09:30:02 <Vorpal> case 8: magic_bits = ((0x7efefefeL << 16) << 16) | 0xfefefeffL; break;
09:30:09 <Vorpal> That case 8-line is weird
09:30:17 <Vorpal> Very strange way of writing a 64-bit number
09:30:36 <Vorpal> (This is eglibc source code)
09:33:37 <fizzie> Yeah; doing a plain << 32 is UB if sizeof (T) * CHAR_BIT was <= 32, but I suppose in "case 8:" they know that's not the case.
09:34:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, I was thinking: why not use a ULL constant
09:34:36 <fizzie> LL (long long) in general is C99.
09:35:45 <fizzie> If they know that plain long can hold that large values, there should be no issues with just writing 0x7efefefefefefeffL, but I guess the idea is to avoid errors when it's being compiled for a smaller 'longword'.
09:36:19 <fizzie> And possibly also << 32 (even when not executed) causes warnings in that case, that could be the reason.
09:37:47 <Vorpal> lifthrasiir, strchr, and that specific pattern is looking for \0
09:38:15 <lifthrasiir> yeah, that magic constant looked familiar.
09:38:36 <Vorpal> I'm reading up on how an efficient strstr is done, turns out it uses strchr to find potential matches first for example
09:38:56 <Vorpal> Then it does a two_way_short_needle() search, whatever that is
09:42:20 <Vorpal> Heh, there is code here to handle CHAR_BIT < 10 and CHAR_BIT >= 10 separately
09:44:47 <fizzie> Trivia factoid of the day: SH3 has an instruction "CMP/STR Rn, Rm", which sets the T bit if any of the bytes of Rn equals the corresponding byte in Rm. (It's for making four-bytes-at-a-time string operations easier.)
09:45:20 <Vorpal> what sort of architecture is SH3?
09:45:29 <fizzie> E.g. you can do the "is there a zero byte" by CMP/STR'ing against all-bits-zero.
09:46:05 <fizzie> It's an (arguably) RISC microcontroller with some DSP leanings.
09:46:15 <fizzie> At least RISC enough to be a load-and-store type of thing.
09:46:15 <Vorpal> Ah, that is why I never heard of it
09:47:37 <Vorpal> Well, bbl, won't have time to finish fixing STRN today, probably not until the weekend.
09:48:26 <fizzie> Many of the SH family chips have ended up in Sega consoles.
09:49:12 <fizzie> (SH-2 in 32X and Saturn, SH-4 in Dreamcast.)
09:51:05 <Vorpal> Hm, when I drag a maximised chromium window from my primary monitor to my (slightly smaller) secondary monitor, it often decides to go full screen...
09:51:12 <Vorpal> And sometimes get stuck in full screen
09:51:15 <Vorpal> which is quite annoying
09:55:18 <fizzie> Fiora: Re the pairing thing from yesterday, I was going to say that (IIRC) (at least older) MIPS FPUs have 32 single-precision float registers, but each consecutive (even, odd) pair can be used as a single double-precision float; you just use the .d version of the instruction and give the even-numbered register as the operand.
09:56:07 <fizzie> Fiora: (Not that in that case the ability to address the high or low half of a double-precision float as a single-precision float is perhaps terribly useful.)
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11:43:52 <Fiora> um, I don't really know whose thing this would be but maybe kmc or someone?
11:43:54 <Fiora> http://www.leafpetersen.com/leaf/publications/icfp2013/vectorization-haskell.pdf
11:44:06 <Fiora> it's an intel paper on a vectorizing haskell compiler
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14:29:37 <oerjan> <fizzie> Well, I wouldn't probably have hit that bug, since you can't get anything into the Underload program that isn't in the input that came over IRC. <-- clearly you should check if this can be the cause of fungot's weird input line scrambling bug hth
14:29:38 <fungot> oerjan: http://www.imdb.com/ name/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord
14:30:40 <oerjan> fungot: sounds like a scary movie
14:30:41 <fungot> oerjan: the seaside framework has a lot of c++
14:30:52 <oerjan> fungot: as i said, scary.
14:30:52 <fungot> oerjan: you could use csw to organize meetings.
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14:48:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, that was one reason I poked fizzie about it. But I don't think that it would be handling binary data much outside of the bf interpreter?
14:49:16 <Vorpal> And it only takes effect for certain STRN instructions for values above 255
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14:49:57 <Vorpal> Hm since I used unsigned char* it *would* affect negative values too
14:55:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, also data read in files using FILE for example (byte IO) is of course treated as using unsigned chars rather than signed. That could I guess cause issues for some programs. But since Funge doesn't define that behaviour afaik. Meh
14:55:55 <Vorpal> Pretty sure it is the same for all IO in fact.
14:56:48 <Vorpal> I only convert unsigned char* to char* where needed by system calls and similar (fopen and so on)
15:02:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: I only use values 0..127 in any "binary" files, for portability.
15:02:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, Hm, just looked at STRN V... What is that supposed to do when the number isn't valid...
15:03:28 <Vorpal> Since I implement it with a call to atol, it would silently ignore errors
15:03:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: "For V, a non-numeric value in the string is not an error and will push a 0. Other interpreters may have implemented this as reflecting. This function is implemented as the c function atoi (or equivalent for cell size), It will not search the string for a numeric value."
15:04:08 <Vorpal> Hm I'm actually using atoi, should be atol/atoll.
15:04:35 <Vorpal> Anyway this explains why I didn't use my normal funge-strtol here I guess
15:04:54 <fizzie> (The "Official definitions for RCS Fingerprints" page is much more complete than the RC/Funge-98 V2 manual, even for fingerprints they have in common.)
15:05:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, shouldn't it really be atol/atoll for non-32 bit cells
15:05:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, got a link to that first page? I'm not sure where it is
15:05:45 <elliott> I just want to point out that for over half an hour, everyone who has talked has had the exact same nick length and it's lined up perfectly
15:05:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html
15:06:47 <fizzie> (Maybe "much more complete" was a bit of an exaggeration.)
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15:08:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, I will chose to interpret that as using the function from the atoi-family that is correct for the cell size
15:09:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, only F in STRN remains to be fixed. Implementing an efficient strstr appears somewhat annoying
15:10:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, by the way, is jitfunge dead or just dormant?
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15:14:41 <fizzie> I don't know for sure; somewhere in-between. I still intend to get back to it some day, but don't have any immediate plans.
15:15:42 <fizzie> Regarding the line scrambling bug, I guess it's not entirely impossible I've been "clever" and used G to read, in addition to a line, some kind of length prefix/suffix value on the stack, and that could be getting clipped.
15:15:49 <fizzie> Though I don't remember doing that.
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15:24:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, that would surely break all long lines?
15:27:31 <oerjan> hm i vaguely thought what broke was long _output_ lines.
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15:29:02 <oerjan> also, i think the bug requires the interaction of two consecutive irc lines, at least one of which needs to contain something triggering fungot to act.
15:29:02 <fungot> oerjan: you just have a single list, pointer at head only with the call to k.
15:29:52 <oerjan> hm have we ever checked if the bug is deterministic if we _do_ give fungot identical pairs of consecutive lines
15:33:11 <fungot> quintopia: but it's practical. but i'm not surprised that a guy coming from here has lived there for years; family still there
15:33:11 <fungot> quintopia: no i don't see it in " general", though
15:33:11 <fungot> quintopia: although it isn't mine, a fnord, roughly speaking. thanks for the opportunity to thank you for remember of the man :d... i know
15:33:12 <fungot> quintopia: mostly it just needs to run through every possible sentence hashing to that value
15:35:59 <Vorpal> quintopia, an extremely rare bug where it sometimes give two lines in response to one remark, possibly with the wrong nick.
15:36:52 <quintopia> in that it says "nick: message" and then "nick: message" again?
15:37:39 <quintopia> it would be awfully convenient if said bug was always preceded by someone else making a remark to fungot and getting no reply :P
15:37:44 <Vorpal> iirc, was so long ago I saw it
15:56:21 <fizzie> It gives the second line in response to some unrelated comment that doesn't mention fungot at all.
15:56:21 <fungot> fizzie: of course movies are a bit limited
15:57:00 <fizzie> I've pasted examples from fungot's "rawlog" as to how it thinks the input looks; generally it has parts of the actual unrelated comment, some "random-looking" stuff, and a copy of the previous input line.
15:57:01 <fungot> fizzie: there's that ' fnord', and accented it becomes " int ret free; fnord" it can actually be simulated on a fnord
15:58:42 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/iRYi has an example.
15:59:29 <fizzie> It also seems to have a higher chance of occurring if it has tried to generate a very long output from the babbling code.
15:59:58 <Vorpal> Hm, it is hot and I hate off by one errors.... Does this look right?
15:59:59 <Vorpal> funge_cell * funge_strchr(const funge_cell *s,
15:59:59 <Vorpal> const funge_cell* p = s;
16:00:06 <Vorpal> return (funge_cell*)p;
16:00:24 <Vorpal> Don't really need p, could just advance s
16:00:32 <fizzie> But it's still quite random; I should probably fuzz it out by some randomized testing that keeps track of ? seeds, so that I can then debug it.
16:01:18 <fizzie> "const funge_cell* p" looks inconsistently spaced w.r.t. "const funge_cell *s".
16:03:18 <quintopia> fizzie: so it is filling up the output queue and overflowing it...and then something triggers it to flush it?
16:04:56 <fizzie> quintopia: Yes, except that the output message (and the token stream for babbling) are all on different rows of the fungespace than where the buffered input is stored, so nothing *should* be getting overfloweded.
16:05:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, we clearly need a funge MMU to debug the issue
16:05:35 <Vorpal> So we can get cell faults
16:06:08 <Vorpal> Actually, something like that would be somewhat useful
16:06:13 <quintopia> fizzie: i was thinking more of a bug in the interpreter's output system.
16:07:21 <fizzie> quintopia: SOCK's W (which is what is used for output) is probably pretty much a direct write syscall to socket, so there isn't too much there to mess up, either. It is a mystery.
16:07:47 <Vorpal> Yeah it is get string from stack or whatever (I don't remember) then just write it
16:07:54 <quintopia> fizzie: but what about the funge interpreter?
16:08:25 <Vorpal> for (size_t i = 0; i < (size_t)len; ++i)
16:08:25 <Vorpal> buffer[i] = (unsigned char)fungespace_get(vector_create_ref(v.x + (funge_cell)i, v.y));
16:08:25 <Vorpal> sent = send(sockets[s]->fd, buffer, (size_t)len, 0);
16:08:34 <Vorpal> Indentation screws up on IRC
16:08:39 <fizzie> quintopia: What about the funge interpreter, indeed?
16:08:56 <quintopia> that is what is being analyzed here?
16:09:24 <fizzie> quintopia: Yes, and I just said there isn't much of an "output queue" or anything to overflow in it.
16:09:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: I suppose that buffer is long enough?-)
16:10:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, buffer = malloc((size_t)len * sizeof(unsigned char));
16:10:22 <Vorpal> Also that line is pointlessly verbose
16:10:33 <Vorpal> sizeof(unsigned char) is somewhat silly
16:11:39 <oerjan> <quintopia> hi fungot <-- not identical _lines_, identical _pairs_ of lines hth (and possibly they might have to be from different nicks!*@*
16:11:40 <fungot> oerjan: sure, but is very slow by looking at its signature.) now take take out the b and the d mailing list, so i'll probably ask, eventually.
16:12:34 <quintopia> fizzie: there's only one possible solution! make another bot that monitors fspace and the channel and writes out the last few minutes of fspace to a file when it sees the buggy behavior!
16:12:57 <fizzie> Personally I suspect my in-fungot input buffering; it does up-to-3375-byte reads from the socket, and then extracts individual lines; there's a slightly kludgy-looking piece of code to move the leftover incomplete line and continue reading from where it ends.
16:12:57 <fungot> fizzie: ( gah why do i have an existing scheme environment, like an animated gif?
16:13:14 <fizzie> fungot: Well I haven't added that, don't look at me.
16:13:14 <fungot> fizzie: yes. that basic level is hardly very motivating... it's crap :) but i like to ask you
16:14:18 <quintopia> fizzie: is it possible to guarantee that a read ends on a newline? isn't there a library function that does that?
16:14:42 <Vorpal> Oh nice, it now crashes with clang in release mode. Works fine with gcc!?
16:15:44 <Vorpal> It doesn't crash in debug build...
16:16:30 <Vorpal> ==28041== Warning: client switching stacks? SP change: 0x7fefffff8 --> 0x3feffffb0
16:16:30 <Vorpal> ==28041== to suppress, use: --max-stackframe=17179869256 or greater
16:16:30 <Vorpal> ==28041== Process terminating with default action of signal 11 (SIGSEGV)
16:16:38 <Vorpal> Great valgrind gets confused by it
16:17:32 <Vorpal> It crashes on the function call itself???
16:17:37 <Vorpal> => 0x000000000040b51b <+155>:callq 0x40b450 <funge_strchr>
16:18:02 <Vorpal> Oh yeah, stack frame is corrupt...
16:18:45 <fizzie> quintopia: There certainly isn't a "read until end of line" function in the SOCK fingerprint.
16:19:28 <fizzie> (As for in general, GNU and modern POSIX have a 'getline', but that's for FILE * streams, not file descriptors.)
16:21:51 <Vorpal> GCC in release mode is fine
16:22:15 <oerjan> <fizzie> [...] there's a slightly kludgy-looking piece of code to move the leftover incomplete line and continue reading from where it ends. <-- that's what i would suspect too, from how the buggy lines are shifted beyond the messed up part
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16:23:51 <oerjan> except how does that get affected by the babble generator.
16:24:05 <Vorpal> Something goes very very wrong in the actual call
16:26:13 <Vorpal> Hm the stack is already corrupt at that point
16:29:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, wow, I manage to get a corrupt stack between the entry of the function and the first actual line of code...
16:30:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, quintopia oerjan: If any of you are good at assembler... http://sprunge.us/FDFL
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16:31:12 <Vorpal> This is the start of the function, at the first line the stack is ok, at the last line (first source line in code) it is not
16:31:45 <Vorpal> Those sub lines look weird
16:33:23 <Vorpal> This happens in clang at -O2 or more
16:36:17 <fizzie> I can have a look in a bit.
16:36:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm pretty sure it is miscompilation by adding a bunch of sub $0x7fffffff,%rsp
16:40:50 <Vorpal> Well there is a thunderstorm, I have to leave, use lambdabot for replying
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16:51:14 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal Well, I don't have an offhand guess as to what that could be all about; I mean, what it looks like is a 16-gig stack allocation. You could paste the corresponding C too, though.
16:54:18 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal (2^32 32-bit values equals 16 gigs, which is probably relevant.)
16:58:06 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal I mean, that's the "normal" way you get that kind of subs at start -- http://sprunge.us/eETD -- of course I doubt your C code looks quite like that.
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17:59:49 <ion> Playing some music. http://overviewer.org:8001/
18:01:46 <Gracenotes> you should get cloud hosting and use irssi and have a permanent tmux session and idle in all channels forever
18:03:30 <fizzie> ion: What exactly are we listening to?
18:03:56 <ion> Misc. stuff i’m listening to. http://www.last.fm/user/hapanvelli (and i’m also playing FTL. :-P)
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18:31:04 <fizzie> I took a look at the survey, and the questions looked too hard for me. :/
18:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i filled it out fine and i am the laziest person at filling out surveys ever
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18:36:52 <fizzie> I don't know what a proper value for the "hours per week" question is, because the instant value is so variable, and I can't really guesstimate-average over the last 10 years.
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21:05:24 <kmc> shachaf: happy birthday!
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21:11:59 <Taneb> Wow, shachaf must be like 16 years old
21:13:02 <kmc> how do ya figure
21:13:37 <Taneb> Because he's growing up so faast
21:13:59 <Taneb> One of these days he may even be as old as me or Phantom_Hoover!
21:16:16 <Taneb> When I was shachaf's age, I was already reading Homestuck!
21:17:12 <Taneb> shachaf, I hope you get something nice!
21:17:19 <Taneb> I got a shaver for my 16th birthday
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21:18:39 <Fiora> kmc: did you see the haskell compiler thingy
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21:20:13 <Fiora> http://www.leafpetersen.com/leaf/publications/icfp2013/vectorization-haskell.pdf
21:21:12 <Fiora> intel making a haskell compiler ^^
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21:23:01 <Gracenotes> hurrah Haskell being agnostic to both frontend type magic and backend cost models by design
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21:23:47 <Gracenotes> if not agnostic, maybe at least lapsed catholic
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21:28:49 <Fiora> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oops-Leon physicists are amazing
21:29:24 <Fiora> At Fermilab in 1976 a team led by a guy named Leon announced the discovery of a new particle, which they called the Upsilon particle, but after much more data it proved to be just a statistical fluke; they didn't have enough sigma.
21:29:28 <Fiora> So they called it the Oops-Leon particle.
21:29:52 <Bike> the "Good Fucking Job, Leon" particle
21:32:39 <oerjan> shachaf: happy birthday!
21:32:55 <olsner> shachaf has a birthday?
21:33:17 <kmc> he is birthdaying as we speak
21:33:30 <Bike> live birthday updates
21:33:32 <oerjan> is this like molting in which case pics
21:33:58 <Bike> update: shachaf birthday still underway. the SCOTUS has still not yet commented
21:34:14 <olsner> the yearly molting of the shachafs?
21:34:20 <oerjan> what about the POTUS and the COTUS
21:34:26 <Fiora> kmc are you at his birthday party? :o
21:34:29 <Bike> we are in hour fourteen of shachaf birthday with no end in sight. please stay in your homes and continue watching this broadcast
21:34:49 <kmc> Fiora: no but I hope he will come to SF this weekend
21:35:26 <Bike> Hamiltonian Bicycle <-- i've been outbiked :(
21:35:51 <oerjan> is that a bike that can only visit each place once
21:37:17 <kmc> sounds like bike share shenanigans
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21:40:31 <shachaf> kmc: today i saw people on a ""conference bike""
21:40:40 <shachaf> http://www.conferencebike.com/
21:41:45 <fizzie> "while the other 6 pedal (or not)" yeah, that sounds pretty much like how it'd be like.
21:41:50 <olsner> IT’S A PARTY ON WHEELS!!
21:43:18 <kmc> it's a party on wheels and everyone is sweating with their clothes on
21:43:29 <kmc> shachaf: was it a google one
21:43:42 <shachaf> had lunch with Gracenotes at the google
21:44:26 <fizzie> There's supposed to be some sort of a campus bike system at our place, but I've never seen one of them, just some racks that have "reserved for campus bikes" signs on them.
21:44:46 <olsner> probably they got stolen?
21:46:53 <Bike> is Gracenotes a google
21:47:10 <kmc> shachaf: they feed you well eh
21:47:54 <Gracenotes> I used to be a Google. I still do, but I used to, too.
21:48:10 <kmc> i had dinner at the Dropbox office the other day. it looks like it belongs in a movie about posh SF startups
21:48:30 <shachaf> i know someone who almost went to work at Dropbox because of the food
21:49:17 <coppro> I'm not a google any more
21:49:23 <shachaf> kmc: there was a book there that i wanted to take a picture of for this channel (but i agreed not to take pictures, or something)
21:49:37 <fizzie> "You must not reside in one of the following countries: Barbados, Guatemala. (You appear to be in: Finland.)"
21:49:56 <shachaf> it had a sticker on it that read:
21:50:27 <shachaf> restaurant copy "do not remove"
21:50:29 <fizzie> "help, I'm trapped in a Google".
21:50:51 <fizzie> It's the emphasis-quotes.
21:50:51 <kmc> oppa #esoteric style
21:50:55 <olsner> "book is google. do not remove"
21:51:04 <fizzie> Best emphasis-quotes use: [[We serve "food"]].
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21:51:13 <kmc> fizzie: hahaha
21:51:24 <Bike> i got a "free" t-shirt today
21:51:32 <Bike> also http://www.unnecessaryquotes.com/
21:51:36 <olsner> [[bus: the "comfortable" way to travel]]
21:51:46 <Bike> please note we are "LAW FIRM"
21:52:10 <shachaf> coppro: is being a google a good idea y/n
21:52:18 <ion> http://www.theonion.com/articles/new-horizontal-device-prevents-falls-to-basement,1096/?ref=butt
21:52:19 <fizzie> Hey, there's a "do not remove" sign there too.
21:52:37 <fizzie> For staff room only "do not remove"
21:53:15 <olsner> but using quotes for emphasis is "correct", isn't it?
21:53:44 <fizzie> [[ Check Out our "Exotic Game" Meats! ]] is also kinda suspicious.
21:54:10 <olsner> i.e. not so much unnecessary quotes as "quotes used in another purpose for which they can also be used"
21:55:54 <oerjan> olsner: well, it's definitely "unambiguous" hth
21:55:57 <Bike> quotes are already overloaded for sarcasm, imo
21:57:06 <Gracenotes> But don't use backticks. This isn't the 70s.
21:58:10 <Bike> ``plus we're in esoteric''
21:58:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `plus: not found
21:58:18 <kmc> ``LaTeX is still pretty popular''
21:58:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `LaTeX: not found
21:58:24 <kmc> douglass_: what do you think about ``quotes''
21:58:47 <lambdabot> kmc says: "when computer scientists rebuild the world after the apocalypse, we will have hanging gardens with trees that grow downward"
21:59:05 <Bike> that sounds pretty.
21:59:16 <nooodl> i think using quotes for emphasis isn't very correct
22:02:15 <fizzie> Hey, if I have a Windows system partition mounted in a Linux system, what's the easiest way to determine which version of Windows is installed there?
22:03:43 <douglass_> quotes for emphasis is not a thing
22:03:54 <oerjan> boot it in a vm thththtth
22:04:16 <olsner> fizzie: run strings on some dll, see if a version number pops out?
22:04:25 <fizzie> Quotes are sometimes used for emphasis in lieu of underlining or italics, most commonly on signs or placards "sorry"
22:04:26 <douglass_> because they get read as scare quotes, which have sort of the opposite meaning
22:04:46 <Gracenotes> I think non-quoting quote-enclosed phrases say "I don't exactly mean this phrase, but a phrase approximately close to this phrase"
22:05:03 <Gracenotes> It's when you take a phrase, put it in a mention context, then put that in a use context again
22:05:28 <olsner> oh, maybe there's something in windows/system32/drivers/etc/issue
22:05:40 <olsner> next to the hosts file
22:05:41 <Gracenotes> Double quotes seem to go in the direction of worst possible connotation, but imo single quotes tend to be a connotation-free adder of fuzziness.
22:06:10 <Gracenotes> the worst possible connotation, of course, being sarcasm
22:06:34 <fizzie> stringsing a couple random files has not yet helped.
22:07:03 <douglass_> single quotes just make you look british
22:07:03 <fizzie> There used to be a boot.ini with entries, I think, but this doesn't seem to have one.
22:07:18 <olsner> hmm, looks like I forgot to add "hth" to some of those suggestions
22:07:49 <olsner> but there ought to be something that can extract that standard version information from dlls in linux
22:07:57 <fizzie> WindowsUpdate.log has installed something "for Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5 SP1 on Windows XP, Windows Server 2003, Windows Vista, Windows Server 2008 x86", so that sort of narrows it down a bit.
22:08:19 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:08:42 <fizzie> Also a couple of "Security Update for Windows Vista"s, maybe it's that.
22:10:02 <Gracenotes> douglass_: I guess that depends on the «communication channel» used
22:10:10 <olsner> maybe you could remove it and install a known windows version on top?
22:10:24 <olsner> probably time for that anyway
22:10:43 <fizzie> Also a "Security Update for .NET Framework 3.5 SP1, Windows Vista SP2, and Windows Server 2008 SP2 x86 (KB983589)".
22:11:17 <fizzie> olsner: Actually I'm trying to figure out if the 6.75 EUR staff-priced Windows 7 (or 8) "Upgrade" versions *could* be installed on top of it.
22:11:18 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/MAZE.png not sure that i'm ready for this maze wikipedia
22:12:22 <olsner> oh, your university doesn't have educational msdn and free everything?
22:12:57 <fizzie> olsner: They have MSDN "Academic Alliance" stuff, but I think that was somewhat limited.
22:13:14 <fizzie> olsner: At least back when I installed something from it, the license terms said it's only valid as long as I stay there.
22:13:58 <fizzie> These non-free versions, AIUI, are as good as purchased, and seven euros isn't really all that much.
22:17:34 <fizzie> (It's from the OnTheHub thing, which is... some kinda thing.)
22:17:58 <fizzie> There's also the DreamSpark Windows 8.
22:18:39 <olsner> DreamSpark? OnTheHub? shenanigans
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22:20:00 <fizzie> The "DreamSpark Premium" they have seems to include Windows 8, 7, Server 2008, Embedded 8, Vista, HPC Server 2008, Server 2008, Server 2008, Web Server 2008, Services for UNIX 3.5, Windows 7 Debug Symbols, Microsoft MS-DOS 6, and pretty much everything.
22:20:20 <fizzie> (DOS 6.22 for free? Best deal!)
22:20:28 <fizzie> Oh, both 6.22 and 6.0 are available.
22:21:28 <shachaf> http://www.geekosystem.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/ms-dos-logo1.jpg ““nostalgia””
22:21:37 <olsner> I bet zzo has an actual favourite DOS version
22:21:50 <ion> ````nostalgia''''
22:21:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ```nostalgia'''': not found
22:21:54 <kmc> i bet it's < 6
22:22:30 <kmc> or maybe zzo38 thinks that CP/M is better than DOS
22:22:44 <olsner> does CP/M have a gopher client?
22:22:50 <shachaf> maybe he wrote his own version of DOS
22:22:59 <fizzie> olsner: "You may only use the tools and software from DreamSpark to get ahead in school, develop new skills and take steps in research in science, technology, engineering or mathematics." Yeah, that was the problem with the free versions.
22:24:02 <olsner> "develop new skills" could mean a lot of things
22:24:29 <olsner> and arguably, using a computer means taking steps in technology all the time
22:24:58 <fizzie> The DreamSpark edition does have the advantage of being a non-Upgrade.
22:33:39 <shachaf> kmc: you know the thing where people say "bobby tables" for no real reason and then you feel irritated at them
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22:34:26 <Bike> is that a thing.
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22:35:25 <olsner> shachaf: is that the thing where "cool people" like you dislike xkcd for some reason?
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22:36:10 <shachaf> i dislike some references such as that one
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22:37:41 <kmc> why that one in particular
22:38:54 <olsner> I can get annoyed by things that seem more popular than they deserve, but I still think it's silly to get annoyed
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23:15:56 <shachaf> i am unable to concentrate when there is a person nearby listening to drumzy music in their ear-listening-thingies
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23:20:05 <kmc> legalize drumz
23:20:27 <shachaf> and within 30 feet of a building
23:20:43 <kmc> what about e-drumz
23:20:51 <fizzie> shachaf == a soldier in the war on drumz.
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00:18:44 <shachaf> ion: It's slightly difficult to believe that this person has been in #haskell for over three years and written over 50000 words.
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00:24:36 <shachaf> adnap. Whatever their strategy is for learning/understanding things, it doesn't seem to be working.
00:25:07 <kmc> shachaf: should I leave #cslounge
00:25:09 <shachaf> It's very frustrating to try to help them. :-(
00:27:07 <shachaf> i think it makes you p. unhappy some of the time, which isn't so great
00:27:23 <shachaf> but i'm not entirely sure why
00:27:34 <shachaf> so maybe there's context that i'm missing
00:28:07 <kmc> I think I should
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00:31:33 <ion> Should i join #cslounge?
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00:34:35 <lambdabot> (Fractional a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
00:39:30 <Gracenotes> shachaf: you might be surprised how little #haskell knows about Haskell, as an unweighted average over its residents
00:40:10 <kmc> I would be surprised if shachaf is surprised by that
00:40:51 <kmc> there's not that much overlap between #haskell regulars and people who write "real software" in Haskell
00:41:52 <shachaf> augustss wrote "real software" in haskell (numberz joke)
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00:46:22 <Gracenotes> "My Haskell compiler is so advanced it has zygoHistoPrepro# as a primitive. Can you say that about your Haskell compiler?"
00:46:40 <Bike> yes, though i'd be wrong
00:46:49 <shachaf> in a. likelihood my haskell compiler is the same as your haskell compiler
00:47:30 <Gracenotes> Also, when you really need the raw power, there's unsafeZygoHistoPrepro#
00:47:37 <kmc> i wonder if ghc has stream fusion a zygohistomorphic prepromorphism
00:48:17 <Gracenotes> Not recommended over the safe version for the average programmer.
00:48:27 <lambdabot> kmc says: Zagen, you'll need a zygohistomorphic prepromorphism from the bifunctorial Kleisli category of username-password pairs to a combinatory arrow calculus of php scripts
00:48:36 <kmc> I feel bad about that kind of quote now
00:48:46 <kmc> Gracenotes: why would I be using your Haskell compiler if I'm merely an average programmer
00:50:49 <Gracenotes> Yeah, I know, in imperative languages zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms are unsafe by default. It can be a hard first step for the average programmer to model them purely, but ultimately it leads to better software engineering.
01:03:11 <Bike> uh excuse you i was in the middle about my essay about bifunctorials being overrated and using snobol instead
01:07:09 <Bike> see you can implement kleisli categories in snobol if you extend gotos with macros,
01:07:22 <shachaf> what is a bifunctorial Kleisli category
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01:08:22 <shachaf> startup idea: markov chain bot trained on category theory papers + grad students to make sense of what comes out
01:09:29 <Bike> it's like SNARXIV for SLOVENIAN MATHEMATICS!
01:11:08 <zzo38> I played Dungeons&Dragons game yesterday.
01:11:13 <shachaf> Bike: so you know how the limit/colimit functors are adjoint to the diagonal functor
01:15:11 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
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01:23:27 <Bike> "Galois became so angry with [being locked into school] that he tried to escape from l'Ècole [the school] by climbing over its walls. When he failed there was nothing left to do but take his examinations in calculus and physics."
01:23:56 -!- clog has joined.
01:24:53 <zzo38> But I made some progress to win. And even when I do win, the game still won't be finished yet
01:29:25 <zzo38> I did once do something where a stun cone is deliberately aimed to hit someone on my own team as well as the opponents, because the character on my own team is I expected them to easily resist it. Does this tactic have a name?
01:34:38 -!- Lymia has joined.
01:34:45 <Gracenotes> on the subject of winning: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Losing
01:35:35 <tswett> I think I'm going to rename my Totally Awesome Programming Language to Hylisk.
01:35:43 <tswett> Since "Hydralisk" is already a word.
01:40:49 <zzo38> I want to know if this tactic has a name.
01:45:02 <zzo38> My character's name is Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe.
01:45:56 <oerjan> Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe's Gambit, check
01:46:34 <shachaf> zzo38: That name seems difficult to pronounce.
01:46:46 <zzo38> But that isn't the only thing they do!
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01:47:28 <tswett> I think I'm gonna write a Hylisk compiler in Hylisk. It'll be useless at first.
01:48:18 <tswett> module MegaHylisk where main :: World -> World
01:48:54 <oerjan> but that's not monadic!
01:49:15 <zzo38> (I called it "Armor Gambit", if there isn't the name, but I think that isn't a very good name though)
01:49:22 <tswett> I mean, it's equivalent to something monadic.
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01:49:46 <tswett> IO a is defined as World -> (World * a), so World -> World is equivalent to IO Unit.
01:50:36 <oerjan> shachaf doesn't approve of your World view
01:50:56 <ion> IO a might as well be defined as Friendship -> (Magic * a)
01:51:14 <HackEgo> 2013-07-13 19:43:17: <Gregor> It is, it works great.
01:51:30 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:51:54 <ion> Let me interject. What you are referring to as GNU/Linux is actually GNU/GNU/Linux.
01:52:03 <tswett> Hylisk is going to be Awesome.
01:52:14 <tswett> The reason that it's Awesome is that things like World -> World actually make sense.
01:52:20 <oerjan> GNU/GNU/GNU/Linux/Guisarme
01:52:30 <tswett> Since I'm defining IO, I think I'm going to define OI as well.
01:52:44 <ion> How about I and O?
01:52:50 <tswett> ion: that... actually would make sense.
01:52:55 <zzo38> Things like World -> World don't make sense for I/O ordinarily how it work, but maybe in that programming language, it might.
01:53:16 <ion> zzo38: What’s your favorite version of MS-DOS?
01:53:32 <tswett> data I a = I (World -> a); data O a = O World a; data IO a = IO (I (O a)); data OI a = Oi (O (I a))
01:54:04 <shachaf> tswett: like, adjunctions, man
01:54:13 <tswett> Though "I" and "O" don't actually mean "input" and "output" here. Who knows what they mean.
01:54:35 <ion> Ion and Oerjan
01:55:11 <tswett> An "I a" turns the entire universe into an "a". That sounds pretty... apocalyptic.
01:55:23 <tswett> Say, fact: in this language, you're going to be convert a monad into its corresponding comonad really easy.
01:55:43 <shachaf> oerjan: should i start saying "monotone" and "antitone" functors...........
01:56:12 <tswett> Indeed, I think it makes sense to introduce syntax for this: ~IO is the comonad corresponding to IO, ~List is the comonad corresponding to List...
01:56:36 <oerjan> shachaf: not in public, no
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01:57:01 <zzo38> tswett: Maybe you need an extra structure on that category
01:57:13 <tswett> Extra structure on that category?
01:57:22 <tswett> Like, uh, is "cartesian closed" an example of extra structure?
01:57:33 <zzo38> Yes, that is the kind of things I mean, actually
01:57:52 <zzo38> Although in what you have, you need to have some way so that there is a comonad corresponding to a monad
01:57:53 <tswett> Yeah, there's an analogous thing for this, but I don't remember what it's called. Lemme see.
01:57:55 <shachaf> tswett: how does that work..............
01:58:17 <shachaf> tswett: you can make co-io like that because you get "IO" from an adjunction O -| I
01:58:21 <tswett> shachaf: simple. data Co m a = Co (m (a -> Done) -> Done)
01:58:27 <shachaf> do you always have an adjunction??
01:58:51 <tswett> I don't actually know.
01:59:05 <tswett> Anyway, Done is defined by the existence of a bijection between (a -> Done) -> Done and a.
01:59:52 <oerjan> tswett: for lists, the obvious adjunctions are not between a category and itself, but between, in spirit, the category of sets and the category of monoids.
02:00:11 <oerjan> *obvious adjoint functors
02:00:13 <tswett> zzo38: here we go. Closed symmetric monoidal categories.
02:00:23 <shachaf> oerjan: or, like, the kleisli category of [] ""or whatever""" and stuff, man
02:00:29 <oerjan> so the comonad is not in the same category
02:00:48 <tswett> Anyway, Hylisk is going to be based on linear logic as a type system, the same way that Haskell has intuitionistic logic as a type system.
02:00:50 <shachaf> oerjan: It sounds like tswett is describing something similar to edwardk's "monads from comonads", but I think that only works one way.
02:01:03 <shachaf> I'm not sure how a linear type system or something changes that.
02:01:17 <tswett> Maybe my "monads" aren't really monads or something.
02:01:29 <tswett> I'm not actually sure Co always gives you the comonad, but it does always give you *something*.
02:01:45 <shachaf> edwardk's type is newtype Co w a = Co { runCo :: forall r. w (a -> r) -> r }
02:01:54 <oerjan> tswett: have you seen Clean btw
02:01:55 <shachaf> And that works fine for giving you a monad, by composing adjunctions.
02:02:59 <tswett> oerjan: I took a look at it. I don't know if it supports everything linear logic has.
02:03:07 <tswett> In particular, does it have a "with" type constructor?
02:03:27 <tswett> shachaf: yeah, that does look remarkably like what I came up with.
02:03:43 <tswett> I wonder if edwardk is familiar with linear logic. Surely so.
02:04:19 <shachaf> Yes, edwardk used to be p. obsessed with substructural logic and such.
02:04:44 -!- jconn has joined.
02:04:54 <tswett> And to that other guy, for that matter.
02:05:15 <tswett> Don't suppose any of you guys know him?
02:05:48 <oerjan> tswett: well i think uniqueness types of Clean are related to linear types but different.
02:06:13 <ion> I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who knows Philip Wadler.
02:06:50 <Bike> i know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who knows Philip Wadler
02:07:02 <oerjan> i hear there's a law that you cannot get to wadler because of an exponential blowup of lexical syntax of comments hth
02:10:07 <tswett> According to LinkedIn, there's no such person as Philip Wadler.
02:19:36 <Bike> prehensile tapir dick: http://i.minus.com/iGQMJmPRkKSGK.gif
02:21:03 <zzo38> I think INSTEAD OF INSERT triggers are the useful kind of triggers in SQL, although the other triggers are also sometimes useful. What do you think?
02:24:07 <zzo38> (I don't remember if I have used any other kinds of triggers.)
02:27:36 <tswett> I'm tempted to call this one type "Rubbish".
02:28:01 <tswett> Just because that's a word not really used on this side of the pond.
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02:31:07 <tswett> So, uh, what am I doing...
02:31:21 <Sgeo> Playing Creatures?
02:31:24 <Sgeo> Or Perspective?
02:31:29 <tswett> Nope. I'm implementing Hylisk in Hylisk.
02:31:42 <shachaf> no, Sgeo.................................................
02:32:16 <tswett> No shachaf. How's it going?
02:34:25 <tswett> Hm, here's an interesting idea for what do-notation could do. First, we could say that do {a; b; c} means (c . b . a).
02:35:56 <tswett> Then a -< y will mean (\arg -> a arg y).
02:36:43 <tswett> And x <- a will mean, uh, let (res, x) be the result of a and return res. Yeah.
02:39:36 <tswett> But this only really makes sense for state-like things.
02:39:39 <tswett> Oh well. It works nicely for I/O.
02:39:50 <tswett> I'll use the keyword "sdo" instead.
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02:44:25 <tswett> source <- readFile -< arg
02:44:43 <tswett> -< could easily be defined as an actual function.
02:45:42 <zzo38> Yes it looks like that definition of -< is a combinator function.
02:45:52 <tswett> Or could it? I might want to have special syntax for it.
02:46:02 <tswett> The same way that , isn't an operator in Haskell, even though it could be.
02:49:08 <tswett> class Data a where delete :: a -> Unit; duplicate :: a -> (a * a)
02:50:31 <zzo38> I made a Csound plugin "slowchange" which acts like a kind of low-pass filter but it is different; instead of a frequency cutoff it is the frequency times the amplitude which is cutoff, and the waveform becomes closer to a triangle wave as it approaches the cutoff. Does this have another name? Does this have another use?
02:51:53 <madbr> They have to do something like that when mastering vinyl
02:51:59 <madbr> and it appears in electronics
02:52:13 <madbr> for instance with op amps (which have a limited slew rate)
02:52:25 <tswett> Maybe "Data" isn't the best name for a class.
02:52:32 <zzo38> I didn't know what it was called so I called it "slowchange", but thank you for telling me that
02:52:34 <tswett> "data Void deriving Data"
02:53:42 <shachaf> tswett: Are the laws for that class the same as the comonoid laws?
02:54:15 <zzo38> madbr: Is it sometimes used for special effects?
02:54:43 <madbr> more like some kind of distortion
02:54:53 <madbr> ADPCM compression also has a similar artifact
02:54:58 <tswett> shachaf: for the Data class? Uh, I guess the laws are that fst (duplicate x) = x and snd (duplicate x) = x.
02:55:21 <tswett> delete doesn't really have laws, I think, because there's only one thing it could possibly do.
02:55:43 <tswett> Hm. fst and snd aren't actually definable on pairs.
02:55:53 <tswett> Not on * pairs, that is.
02:56:26 <tswett> Do I really need the Data class? Maybe I don't... *shrug*
02:56:39 <tswett> Maybe I'll do without it and see how much I miss it.
02:58:00 <zzo38> shachaf: I know my character's name is difficult to pronounce; I made up at random, and presumably that character is able to pronounce.
02:58:30 <shachaf> tswett: Well, the comonoid identity laws are (1 *** delete) . duplicate = unfst, where unfst :: a -> (a, Unit)
02:59:01 <tswett> Oh, you said comonoid, not comonad.
03:00:18 <tswett> I guess these are definitely Data laws: (\(x, y) -> (x, delete y)) (duplicate z) = (z, ()), (\(x, y) -> (delete x, y)) (duplicate z) = ((), z)
03:00:28 <tswett> All right, what are the operations on Comonad usually called?
03:00:31 <tswett> The co-join and co-return ones?
03:00:31 <shachaf> And the associativity law is the "obvious" one.
03:00:43 <shachaf> duplicate and "extract", but don't use "extract".
03:02:06 <shachaf> Anyway, your law is the same as my law?
03:03:14 <tswett> Yeah, looks like it is.
03:03:26 <shachaf> Data isn't a class for comonads, just for comonoids.
03:03:34 <shachaf> I am pleased that comonoids make sense for linear types.
03:04:41 <tswett> Hm, so wait. You could potentially have a Data instance that's a comonoid other than the trivial one, I guess?
03:04:45 <tswett> I'm not sure if I want to allow that.
03:04:53 <tswett> Hey, while I'm at it, I should rename "return".
03:04:58 <shachaf> http://www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~laurent/geocal/slides/tabareau.pdf
03:06:36 <shachaf> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15418075/the-reader-monad
03:06:46 <madbr> hmm, you could build a language with a state automaton and one bignum integer variable, and the operations multily, divide and checking modulo if zero or nonzero
03:07:10 <shachaf> (Not the top answer, that one is sort of nonsense.)
03:07:29 <madbr> since it's essentially the same as having a few variables that you can increment and decrement and check for zero
03:07:39 * tswett renames return to pure.
03:07:45 <madbr> (except with the exponent of a few prime numbers multiplied together)
03:07:50 <tswett> I could call the comonad operations copure and cojoin.
03:08:38 <shachaf> instance Comonoid r => Monad {runReader :: Reader r} where
03:08:45 <madbr> (with increment/decrement/check zero you can build a loop to get *2 and /2, and then build a couple of stacks to get the infinite tape)
03:09:02 <tswett> Given that every comonad is Store (in a sense), doesn't the name "extract" really make perfect sense?
03:09:13 <shachaf> That should've been obvious in retrospect.
03:10:13 * tswett instance Monad m => Comonad ~m where
03:10:18 <shachaf> Comonoid r => Monad (r ->), Monoid r => Monad (r,)
03:10:43 <shachaf> Comonoid r => Comonad (r,), Monoid r => Comonad (r ->)
03:12:34 <zzo38> The "return" and "pure" operations are operations of a different kind of thing and even in mathematics I think they call them differently; I did read though in a "monoidal monad" they are defined as being equal, though.
03:15:35 <Sgeo> Why am I looking at Retro?
03:15:37 <Sgeo> It's so low-level
03:15:38 <tswett> extend :: (m (a -> Done) -> Done) -> (m ((m (a -> Done) -> Done) -> Done) -> Done)
03:15:45 <Bike> why are you looking at anything
03:15:47 <Bike> Damn your eyes
03:15:54 <Bike> escape this shitty visual world
03:16:09 <madbr> do you guys know the collatz conjecture?
03:16:12 <madbr> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collatz_conjecture
03:16:21 <madbr> aka the 3n + 1 conjecture
03:16:28 <tswett> I'm familiar with the conjecture.
03:16:43 <tswett> Let me see whether or not I think it's obviously true.
03:16:49 <madbr> sorta wondering if it could be turing complete
03:16:51 <shachaf> i prefer the llatz njecture
03:16:54 <Bike> madbr: generalizations are
03:17:11 <Bike> there's a nice paper on the subject but i've yet to find a version that isn't a shitty preprint, for some reason
03:17:17 <shachaf> maybe they're both clopen problems??
03:17:17 <madbr> but how small can the generalizations be until they stop being turing complete?
03:17:34 <Bike> i do believe that is An Open Problem
03:18:11 <Bike> that is itself an open problem
03:18:12 <tswett> The Collatz conjecture gives me the heebie jeebies.
03:18:22 <Bike> i only get jeebies :(
03:18:44 <shachaf> heebie jeebies are like jeebies except right-to-left
03:19:00 * tswett writes "extend = (not yet implemented)"
03:19:10 <tswett> Honestly, when am I ever going to need to convert between monads and comonads...
03:19:23 * tswett just deletes this declaration.
03:19:40 <madbr> bike : the crazy thing is that the generalization was only only proved undecidable in like 2007
03:21:22 <shachaf> tswett: btw hask is monoidal in more than one way
03:21:46 <tswett> What does it mean for Hask to be monoidal?
03:22:00 <shachaf> you can make eg Void -> a and Either a a -> a
03:22:14 <shachaf> which is another kind of monoid, rather than () -> a and (a,a) -> a
03:22:27 <shachaf> (but it ends up being boring in the same way that normal comonoids are)
03:22:29 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoidal_category
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03:23:30 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_monoidal_category
03:24:29 <tswett> Hm, what sort of language do I want my compiler to target.
03:26:24 <tswett> Is there a compiler that compiles from English into x86?
03:27:03 <Sgeo> What does English compile into?
03:27:15 <tswett> I'm not aware of any compilers from English.
03:27:17 <Bike> tswett: Bill from development, yes
03:27:28 <Sgeo> Not this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_(programming_language)
03:27:44 <Sgeo> This one http://www.osmosian.com/
03:27:54 <tswett> Is his source code under one megabyte?
03:29:33 <Bike> in some language, yes
03:29:43 <tswett> compile = emit . translate . parse
03:29:47 <Sgeo> "Extract the background given the screen's box. \or Create the background from the screen. Or something."
03:29:50 <tswett> There, I've written the bulk of the Hylisk compiler.
03:31:21 <Sgeo> "Allocate memory for the work."
03:31:36 <Sgeo> I'm sure the target audience for this thing know all about allocating memory
03:31:47 <tswett> Hm hm hm. What's a HyliskModule, anyway? It's, uh... well, it has a name, and, uh...
03:32:27 <tswett> A name, a list of data declarations, a list of type declarations, a list of newtype declarations, a list of class declarations, a list of instance declarations, a list of type signatures, and a list of function definitions?
03:32:33 <tswett> Oh right, I also need a list of fixity declarations.
03:33:18 <zzo38> Do you want to use bounded integers, or surreal numbers, for fixity declarations?
03:33:47 <tswett> How about rational numbers?
03:34:00 <tswett> They're literally exactly better than the surreal numbers.
03:34:37 <zzo38> I think surreal numbers are better for fixity declarations, though.
03:35:11 <zzo38> Even though rational numbers would work.
03:36:03 <tswett> data HyliskModule = HM Name (List FixityDec) (List DataDec) (List TypeDec) (List NewtypeDec) (List ClassDec) (List InstDec) (List TypeSig) (List FunDef)
03:36:08 <tswett> Yes, I definitely know what I'm doing.
03:38:17 <zzo38> I have (different) idea, compile a Magic: the Gathering into a Haskell code like: target (is_a Spell) >>= callKeyword . Counter
03:42:36 <Gracenotes> everything is better when it's a Haskell DSL
03:44:21 <zzo38> Gracenotes: Yes it could do a lot of things.
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03:51:44 <JesseH> Trying to think of how I can use English as a programming language.
03:51:55 <JesseH> Some edits would need to be made >_>
03:52:09 <Bike> you hire a person to program for you.
03:52:37 <JesseH> Bike, Just as a fun little esolang
03:53:05 <JesseH> "Create a program that prints 'Hello World' five times."
03:54:03 <JesseH> "x is equal to 100. Create a program that prints 'x bottles of beer' 100 times, subtracting 1 from x each time."
03:54:10 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
03:54:21 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
03:54:27 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
03:54:42 <Sgeo> @hug lambdabot
03:54:42 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
03:54:53 <Sgeo> @hug Gracenotes
03:54:53 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
03:55:36 * lambdabot submits elliott 's email address to a dozen spam lists
03:55:53 <Bike> whoa now, that's over the line
03:58:01 <Bike> is lambdabot truly male
03:58:39 <shachaf> no, the lambdabot @slap database just assumes everyone is male
03:59:00 <Sgeo> It should assume everyone is Spivak
04:01:24 * lambdabot decomposes Fiora into several parts using the Banach-Tarski theorem and reassembles them to get two copies of Fiora!
04:01:46 <Bike> that doesn't sound too bad.
04:04:08 * lambdabot secretly deletes Bike's source code
04:04:21 <Bike> i'm allllll machine code, baby
04:04:29 <Fiora> that isn't very secret is it
04:04:48 <zzo38> Are some people both Buddhist and Roman Catholic? (I know a Roman Catholic who wants to become Buddhist while remaining Roman Catholic too)
04:04:50 <Gracenotes> I have no idea why @vixen was allowed into lambdabot in the first place
04:05:49 <Sgeo> zzo38: I'm pretty sure there exists at least one person who self-identifies as both Christian and atheist, and Roman Catholicism and Buddhism are probably less incompatible than that.
04:05:56 * lambdabot hits quine with a hammer, so they breaks into a thousand pieces
04:07:08 <shachaf> Wobbler took a long look at the girl in the cardboard hat.
04:07:17 <shachaf> "Make me one with everything," he said. "Because... I'm going to become a Muslim!"
04:07:22 <Bike> so they breaks
04:07:46 <shachaf> Bike: they does. you gots a problems with that?
04:07:56 <zzo38> Sgeo: I also think they aren't incompatible, although some people might. Also, I don't really know how you can be both Christian and atheist, although you may be able to be both Yeshuan and atheist. ("Yeshuan" is a term that I and someone else has made up independently, with the same meaning.)
04:07:59 <Sgeo> mnoqy: I saw some thing where a group of people tried to write arguments for their position, or the other position (yes, I know there are more than two positions), and others had to guess which one. One person was a wildcard who considered himself both
04:08:24 <shachaf> was he a wildcard...................or was he just a joker
04:08:43 <Gracenotes> the most nebulous term surely is Jewish, as it doesn't even imply you follow the Judaic religion
04:09:05 <shachaf> Gracenotes: imo "nebula" is a p. nebulous term
04:09:13 <Bike> zzo38: wikipedia has an article on christian atheism. it's ok (the article)
04:09:37 <zzo38> Sgeo: Positions of what?
04:10:43 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, so Christian atheism and Jesusism are related to Yeshuanism, it seems.
04:10:52 <Sgeo> zzo38: Christianity and atheism
04:11:01 <Sgeo> Or maybe it was theism and atheism, I don't remember
04:11:20 <shachaf> what about anism "like theism but more indefinite"
04:11:58 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, there certainly are more than two positions
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04:19:13 <Gracenotes> it's always a bit funny when people in filmed Jesus Christ Superstar productions have visible tattoos of crosses
04:20:41 <Gracenotes> though some of those may be temporary (for anachronistic purposes)
04:25:09 <zzo38> I do not consider Christian atheism to be Christian, although it may be Yeshuan (which does not have to be atheist).
04:25:55 <Sgeo> I don't think the person was the Wikipedia version of Christian atheist
04:25:58 <Gracenotes> how does Yeshuanism related to Judaism?
04:26:04 <Sgeo> I don't remember
04:26:26 <Bike> does "yeshuan" have to be pronounced in a first century judean aramaic accent
04:26:28 <Gracenotes> presumably it's a bit like Christianity - Judaism - God
04:27:39 <Gracenotes> a cult of personality, basically, but stopping at personality
04:28:29 <zzo38> I don't know if it is pronounce like that. However, "Yeshuan" is a term myself (I read a book in the library once, it was titled "Stop worshipping Christ, start following Jesus", and described something which they called Christian but I didn't think it was so I invented the term "Yeshuan"), and someone else made up independently, having the same meaning.
04:29:05 <zzo38> I think that the question of whether God exists or not isn't relevant to defining Yeshuanism.
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04:36:44 <^v> i logged in about 2 years ago
04:36:49 <^v> forgot what i was making
04:36:52 <^v> wanted to say hi
04:37:07 <HackEgo> ^v: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:38:01 <zzo38> ^v: Then remember or try to figure out what you were making, please.
04:38:28 <^v> prolly something Lua
04:38:41 <^v> but related to esoteric languages somehow....
04:38:57 <HackEgo> 2012-09-02.txt:05:00:45: <zzo38> Because, if it is all wrong, then I should fix it please
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04:41:15 <zzo38> ^v: Why did you keep changing your name?
04:41:40 <shachaf> zzo38: They actually changed their nick, not their name.
04:41:47 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, I know that.
04:44:51 <zzo38> Whatever dream any of you have while sleeping, do you notice some pattern of things in common, whether all of them and/or in certain kinds (short dream, long dream, good dream, bad dream, nightmare dream, neutral dream, repeating dream, dream when sleeping in a different place then you ordinarily would, etc)?
04:45:51 <zzo38> I just mean things in common whether or not it forms a pattern really
04:45:54 <Sgeo> I'm generally in my dreams
04:46:15 <mnoqy> i'm in my dreams most of the time but sometimes i'm not
04:46:32 <Sgeo> Until a bit over a year ago, my dreams sometimes featured things that my real life generally did not
04:47:00 <HackEgo> smlist (414): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
04:47:03 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that most/almost all dreams involve elements that real life does not
04:47:13 <mnoqy> i need to remember more dreams & also organize all my logged dreams
04:47:13 <Sgeo> I guess I had specific elements in mind
04:47:58 <Sgeo> I had a dream journal online
04:48:00 <zzo38> And sometime I am in but I am someone else other than myself
04:48:04 <Sgeo> I kind of neglected it though
04:48:12 <zzo38> mnoqy: Yes you should.
04:48:31 <Sgeo> http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-journal-archive/53892-sgeos-dream-journal.html
04:48:32 <zzo38> I have written stuff about my dream on my computer; I have also written what other people have told me about their dream, and marked them differently
04:48:49 <zzo38> I used plain ASCII text files though, rather than HTML
04:49:25 <Sgeo> I have yet to fly into the sun. I am annoyed.
04:51:51 <zzo38> I have noticed that my good dream involves several subjects, nightmare dream involve a single subject and I wake up with a sudden movement and almost fall off of the bed, repeating dream is relatively mundane, ...there are many others too. One thing in general is that sometimes I think of two things at once which aren't being used together.
05:01:30 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/cfGFm5j.png I believe I have found the ultimate douchey job ad for programmers
05:03:11 <Gracenotes> some of the banned words seem reasonable
05:03:38 <Gracenotes> "We have no HR department" Discrimination lawsuit, here we come
05:16:44 <Sgeo> depends is a banned word
05:17:07 <Sgeo> So, no notion of things that may be good or bad depending on circumstances?
05:17:36 <Bike> you can, you just have to express it in the sacred language of the mole-men
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05:32:52 <oklopol> zzo38: i tend to start rotating
05:35:39 <oklopol> like i slowly rotate forward, first i rotate until my face touches the floor, then my legs start rising up until i stand on my head etc
05:36:53 <Bike> i have no idea what the context for this is and it's beautiful
05:38:01 <oklopol> zzo38 asked about recurrent themes in dreams
05:38:11 <Bike> no shush keep going
05:38:26 <oklopol> i'm talking to a beautiful girl, so gonna get laid
05:38:49 <oklopol> it's usually something like that
05:39:08 <oklopol> and then it becomes a dream about rotating through places
05:39:38 <oklopol> i'm winning the nobel prize
05:39:48 <oklopol> i've been preparing my speech for months and months
05:39:57 <oklopol> i start rotating through the audience
05:40:47 <oklopol> another one is that i start floating upward. this also happens when i'm dreaming about something nice. and then it becomes a dream about floating higher and higher.
05:41:50 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzwFpzdO3DY Currently pituring
05:42:45 <comex> when I dream I often am able to fly through the air by pumping my arms in a similar manner to swimming
05:43:12 <oklopol> well sometimes i just stop trying not to rotate, and then it becomes an uncontrolled accelerating rotation that usually ends with me waking up
05:47:37 <zzo38> I am sometimes in the dream able to levitate half an inch above the ground.
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06:40:34 <zzo38> Now I found the programs for rotation of planets other than the Earth, in the source-codes of Celestia. It doesn't include Eris, though.
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06:41:55 <zzo38> I don't know how accurate they are, though.
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06:44:30 <shachaf> Vorpal: what are you doing in #haskell.........................
06:45:05 <Vorpal> shachaf, idling as usual
06:52:16 <shachaf> OK, against common sense I'll try again.
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07:09:14 <shachaf> I thought I'd test the theory that sometimes I misjudge people as "eternally clueless" by trying to help one of them where I'd normally ignore them.
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10:58:25 <fizzie> "Powerplant: 1 × human , 1.1 kW (1.5 hp)" (specs of that human-powered quadcopter thing)
10:58:32 <fizzie> Apparently a human is like 1.5 horses.
10:59:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, pretty sure a human has more energy than that
10:59:39 <fizzie> "Powerplant: 1 × Dennis Bodewits, Kyle Gluesenkamp, Colin Gore Human, 1 hp (0.75 kW)" (specs of Gamera II, another of the kind)
11:00:04 <Vorpal> According to E=mc² that is
11:00:12 <fizzie> "Powerplant: 1 × human power via pedals which are connected to the wings through a system of pumps and pulleys , 0.7 kW (0.94 hp)" (specs of that human-powered ornithopter)
11:00:21 <Vorpal> So if you take one human and one anti-human, how much energy do you get when you collide them?
11:00:38 <fizzie> I think "quite a bit" is the right answer.
11:02:11 <fizzie> 5.575*10^18 J, says W|A.
11:02:53 <fizzie> (Input: "mass of human in joules", input interpretation: "convert [ human | weight ] to joules", result: "5.575*10^18 J (using E=mc^2)".)
11:03:19 <fizzie> Equivalent to 1.333*10^9 tons of TNT.
11:04:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, So lets see, that would be how many Tsar bombs?
11:04:13 <Vorpal> I forgot what the yield of that thing was
11:04:45 <fizzie> 0.53 times the total energy from the sun that hits the earth in one minute, which implies that if (when) the sun goes dark, we just need to sacrifice one guy every 32 or so seconds.
11:07:23 <fizzie> Approximately 23.2 Tsar Bombas.
11:07:45 <Jafet> You just need a steady supply of, say, intellectuals and anti-intellectuals.
11:07:53 <fizzie> Had to divide it myself, W|A knows about "yield of tsar bomba" separately, but doesn't seem to want to divide the two quantities.
11:11:31 <Lumpio-> If one human can produce enough power to keep himself and the contraption afloat, wouldn't more humans be able to do it more easily
11:14:59 <fizzie> I suppose there's more to it than just counting watts, like reasonable scale for the contraption and how to control it.
11:17:06 <Jafet> The person with the highest horsepower has more average horsepower than the five people with the highest horsepower
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11:31:42 <fizzie> If you mean the Gamera II specs, it also holds just a single human; I think those names were just pilots that have -- at different times -- used it.
11:32:45 <fizzie> Or possibly I just can't read your comment right.
11:35:05 <Jafet> shachaf: you just need to realize that many people may be eternally clueless but do not remain that way.
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11:38:34 <shachaf> Jafet: I'd love to see some transitions away from "eternally clueless".
11:39:15 <Jafet> I used to be eternally clueless, but not any more.
11:40:02 <shachaf> It's possible that I used to, too.
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13:04:39 <Vorpal> Why is it that every single time I need to compile llvm it turns out to be a really hot day, making the computer fans go crazy as a result. Strange coincidence.
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13:08:49 <Jafet> That's odd, I also have underpowered computer fans.
13:09:09 <Vorpal> Mine are slightly underpowered it seems, at least for 26 C ambient
13:09:43 <Vorpal> I put a table fan in front of it. Otherwise I was hitting 75 C in seconds while doing make -j4
13:10:26 <Vorpal> oh well, bbl, this seems stable, so I can go do other stuff now
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15:43:29 <tswett> Hm. I think writing a compiler is actually kind of boring.
15:44:25 <Vorpal> tswett, which part of it made you think that?
15:44:33 <Vorpal> I always found optimising quite interesting
15:45:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, I seem to have managed to fix another unrelated bug in a function called by the miscompiled function (in another translation unit!) and now the function is no longer miscompiled
15:46:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think STRN is now fixed, though I will do some more tests, since mycology said it was okay when it completely failed on another test case
15:47:06 <tswett> The part where you parse a program, translate it into a different form, and reemit the result.
15:47:25 <Vorpal> tswett, so all of it then
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15:47:41 <Vorpal> tswett, personally I find the lexer boring, but that is about it
15:47:55 <Taneb> I made marshmallows this afternoon
15:48:15 <tswett> Parsing in particular, because I'm writing in a language that doesn't have a parser library. Or, for that matter, any libraries whatsoever.
15:48:29 <Vorpal> tswett, oh what language are you writing in?
15:48:53 <tswett> Hylisk. It's a language that I'm making up on the fly.
15:49:33 <Vorpal> I think every compiler or interpreter I have written have either used something like flex+bison, parsec or been for such a simple language that it was trivial to write by hand (bf and befunge comes to mind)
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15:49:50 <Ghoul_> tswett: any spec on hylisk?
15:50:02 <tswett> Maybe instead of writing a Hylisk-to-C compiler in Hylisk, I should write it in a language that already exists.
15:50:10 <Vorpal> tswett, is hylisk what you are writing in or what you are parsing?
15:50:26 <tswett> Ghoul_: no; I figured that first I'd write some code in Hylisk in order to solidify my ideas about it.
15:50:40 <Vorpal> tswett, How are you going to bootstrap it then?
15:50:50 <tswett> I'll worry about that later.
15:51:17 <Ghoul_> I started writing a silly spec for haskell that pretended to be C https://gist.github.com/kvanberendonck/2b824285b38be9db2ff0
15:51:28 <tswett> But I'm thinking that instead of actually writing a compiler, maybe I want to use a language that's built for creating languages.
15:51:39 <Ghoul_> I still want to write a compiler one day, but for a more sane language.
15:51:48 <tswett> Like, Idris has a feature for creating embedded domain-specific languages.
15:52:30 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, make a JIT compiler for befunge (you will need to JIT due to the self modifying nature of it)
15:52:45 <Ghoul_> befunge.. lemme google that
15:52:56 <zzo38> Ghoul_: Look up in esolang wiki
15:53:15 <tswett> If I remember correctly, wasn't one of the goals of Unlambda to be difficult to compile?
15:53:23 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, there is befunge-93 (sub-tc) and funge-98 (tc and probably one of the most high level esolangs there is)
15:53:35 <Ghoul_> Now that's just confusing.
15:53:59 <tswett> Oh, looks like that was the goal of (you'll never guess) Befunge.
15:54:08 <Vorpal> high level as in you can actually write reasonably complex stuff in it somewhat easily
15:54:14 <Vorpal> like fungot, the irc bot here
15:54:15 <fungot> Vorpal: ( see http://www.bloodandcoffee.net/ campbell/ code/ config-ex.tar.gz there's an example intercal and c
15:54:17 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
15:54:23 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, that is befunge-98 ^
15:54:59 <Vorpal> (befunge-98 is 2D funge-98, there is also unefunge and trefunge, and potentially other dimensionalities too)
15:55:23 <Ghoul_> next you'll show me a language about compiling ascii pictures
15:55:33 <Ghoul_> which is probably not trivial in befunge
15:56:03 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, think of the code as a grid, where the instruction pointer can move. v makes it start to move down for example
15:56:16 <Vorpal> ^<> are similar for the other directions
15:56:54 <Ghoul_> I got that part, but it honestly just looks really inpractical
15:57:04 <Ghoul_> which is the point I guess.
15:57:05 <Vorpal> It is stack-based, so the code basically is read like RPN
15:57:45 <tswett> I wonder if there's a way to set vim to treat the file as being an infinite plane.
15:57:46 <fizzie> As far as esolangs go, Befunge is pretty practical for writing actual programs.
15:57:49 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, also befunge-98 has support for loading extensions (called fingerprints) to define A-Z. SOCK adds socket support, FILE adds general file IO and so on
15:58:03 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, there is a whole bunch of well known extensions
15:58:50 <Vorpal> oh and if you have any questions try me, Deewiant or fizzie. I wrote cfunge, the interpreter that fungot runs on. fizzie wrote fungot. Deewiant wrote CCBI (another interpreter) and also the standard test suite for funge-98
15:58:50 <fungot> Vorpal: wouldn't know. there's never any guarantees
15:58:57 <Vorpal> fungot, indeed there isn't
15:58:58 <fungot> Vorpal: not without _serious_ compiler analysis. i am confused
15:59:16 <Ghoul_> Now what /would/ be funny if someone gets it to the point where it's actually eligible for the clbg
15:59:24 <Ghoul_> and then it wins in line count on all the challenges.
15:59:33 <Ghoul_> computer language benchmarks game :P
15:59:44 <Vorpal> Never heard of it, how does it work?
15:59:51 <tswett> So wait, is fungot written in a funge?
15:59:51 <Ghoul_> Oh, you've never heard of it?
15:59:52 <fungot> tswett: but i'm gonna zip right through this and become an expert in this subject matter, being really lousy at remembering to remove old stuff from my parser generator... state transition tables i have to
16:00:02 <fizzie> tswett: It's called fungot...
16:00:04 <Ghoul_> http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/
16:00:07 <Vorpal> tswett, befunge specifically
16:01:10 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
16:01:42 <Vorpal> Wait, what is the *game* part of it?
16:01:45 <Ghoul_> heh, I might actually give befunge a go
16:01:55 <Vorpal> Just looks like a bunch of benchmarks to me
16:02:14 <Ghoul_> Vorpal: making new submissions and compiler improvements to get ahead of the others
16:02:21 <Ghoul_> It's a "game" in a sense.
16:02:55 <Vorpal> why is it all on ubuntu yet it is found on a debian.org address!?
16:03:13 <Ghoul_> so if you're moving left across something like this
16:03:21 <Ghoul_> do you get olleh or hello
16:03:39 <fizzie> You get 'H' on top of stack.
16:03:44 <fizzie> Since it was pushed last.
16:04:20 <fizzie> (Stringmode just pushes the letters one by one, in the order they are encountered.)
16:04:23 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, trival "Hello world!\n" printing program: 91+"!dlrow olleH">:#,_@
16:04:42 <Vorpal> 91+ to give a 10 on the stack (this is befunge-93, which didn't have a to push 10)
16:05:31 <tswett> You know, I find it pretty weird that English isn't some thing that I know intuitively. It *feels* like I just know it intuitively, but in fact I had to actually learn every little nuance of it.
16:05:32 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, then >:#,_@ is : to dup top item on stack, # to jump over next instruction (initially skipping the ,), then _ pops the top item and if it is 0 it will go to the right, otherwise left
16:06:03 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, then we hit the , which prints the value on the stack, we hit the # and jump over the dup, change back to going right, rinse and repeat
16:06:31 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, until we get to the end, popping on an empty stack returns 0, so then we go to the right, hit @ which terminates the program
16:06:55 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, without the @ there, the program would have wrapped around and hit the start of the line again
16:07:17 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, column wrapping too!
16:07:42 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, or if you use x in befunge-98 to set a delta of say, (2,3) then the wrapping gets quite confusing
16:07:57 <Ghoul_> so, does , print 1 char
16:08:00 <Ghoul_> or does it print until a zero
16:08:07 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, here is the spec: http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html
16:08:16 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, , prints 1 char
16:08:33 <Vorpal> as the ascii value, . will print it as a decimal number followed by space
16:11:26 <Ghoul_> is there like a 3-dimensional funge?
16:12:06 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, yes trefunge-99
16:12:31 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, it is specified in the funge-98 spec
16:12:41 <Vorpal> since it is just one possible variant of funge-98
16:15:14 <Ghoul_> befunge is self modifying?
16:15:54 <fizzie> There's probably a large fraction of programs that never modify a playfield location that is executed.
16:16:18 <fizzie> E.g. if fungot has any self-modification at all, there's very little of it.
16:16:18 <fungot> fizzie: fnord fnord fnord fnord" in english? dictionary doesn't know it
16:17:04 <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, can't say I'm surprised.
16:17:29 <Ghoul_> Thats slightly annoying
16:17:40 <Ghoul_> woulda' been so easy until the self modifying part
16:17:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, it can reload itself, no?
16:18:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: Okay, there's that.
16:18:46 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, write a compiler? Yeah fizzie was/is working on a JIT compiler, about the only way you can do it
16:19:04 <fizzie> I had a llvm backend, yes.
16:19:23 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, anyway you can't really know all possible paths the program will take, since x allows you to pop two numbers from the stack and set that as the delta of the IP
16:19:33 <Vorpal> Ghoul_, so that also makes it near impossible to compile statically
16:19:42 <Vorpal> what if it uses user input for those numbers?
16:20:03 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
16:20:06 <fizzie> Most of the work there is really tracking which traces need to be invalidated when something changes.
16:20:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, where is the launcher part?
16:20:44 <Vorpal> I want to test after my STRN changes
16:20:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot-load-freenode.b98 for example.
16:20:48 <fungot> fizzie: see the one im talking about the complexity of the job description. it's badly fnord also." " there"
16:20:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: Or s/freenode/local/ for the one that connects to localhost.
16:21:20 <fizzie> (The freenode server's IP might not be current.)
16:21:29 <fizzie> I've also written a static compiler that I think was good enough to (just barely) compile fungot.
16:21:30 <fungot> fizzie: looking at your wiki parser, too!
16:21:58 <fizzie> It uses a couple of heuristics to find the execution paths in cases like j with a non-constant argument.
16:22:14 -!- kallisti_ has joined.
16:22:16 <fizzie> (Basically, jump tables, of which the bot has two or three.)
16:22:27 -!- kallisti_ has quit (Client Quit).
16:22:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, should it print anything?
16:22:45 -!- kallisti_ has joined.
16:22:54 <Vorpal> It is doing nothing as far as I can tell
16:23:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, when does it say that?
16:23:51 <Vorpal> connect(3, {sa_family=AF_INET, sin_port=htons(6667), sin_addr=inet_addr("85.188.1.26")}, 16) = -1 ECONNREFUSED (Connection refused)
16:23:55 <Vorpal> sure that IP is correct?
16:24:05 <fizzie> [19:21:20] <fizzie> (The freenode server's IP might not be current.)
16:24:50 <Vorpal> hm it isn't joining any channel?
16:24:52 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:24:59 <fizzie> It doesn't join any automatically.
16:25:05 <Vorpal> how do I make it join?
16:25:20 <fizzie> "^raw JOIN #foo" in a query, but your owner-prefix must match.
16:25:48 -!- fungot-test has joined.
16:26:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, prefix is set to =, could you please test the stuff that uses STRN? I don't really know underload
16:26:17 <fungot> Vorpal: sure. i wish you would say that the " hotblack fnord" estate agency thing i saw was code in a matter of doing a big up-front design and top-down implementation was lispme. i'm porting it to gambit's web server instead of the original
16:27:40 <Vorpal> =ul (:::::::):(:((^:()~((:)*~^)a~*^!!()~^))~*()~^^)~(^a(*~^)*a~*()~^!()~^)a~**^!!^S
16:27:40 <fungot-test> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ...too much output!
16:27:48 <Vorpal> factorial from the wiki
16:27:58 <Vorpal> =ul (:::):(:((^:()~((:)*~^)a~*^!!()~^))~*()~^^)~(^a(*~^)*a~*()~^!()~^)a~**^!!^S
16:28:11 <Vorpal> ^ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
16:28:11 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
16:28:17 <fizzie> ^ul ((0)(15)(14)(1)(2)(12)(11)(10)(3)(9)(8)(7)(5)(4)(13)(6))(~^:()SSa~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a*~(x)S:^):^
16:28:17 <fungot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
16:28:34 <fizzie> That was the wrong prefix.
16:28:38 <Vorpal> =ul ((0)(15)(14)(1)(2)(12)(11)(10)(3)(9)(8)(7)(5)(4)(13)(6))(~^:()SSa~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a*~(x)S:^):^
16:28:38 <fungot-test> 6x0x15x14x1x2x12x11x10x3x9x8x7x5x4x13x6x0x15x14x1x2x12x11x10x3x9x8x7x5x4x13x6x0x15x14x1x2x12x11x10x3x9x8x7x5x4x13x6x0x15x14x1x2x12x11x10x3x9x8x7x5x4x13x6x0x15x14x1x2x12x11x10x3x9x8x7x5x4x13x6x0x15x14x1x2x12x11x10x3x9x8x7x5x4x13x6x0x15x14x1x2x12x11x10x3x9x8x7x5x4x13x6x0x15x14x1x2x12x11x10x3x9x8x7x5x4x13x6x0x15x14x1x2x12x11x ...too much output!
16:28:47 <fizzie> You need to put that ^C in.
16:28:54 <fizzie> (It generally doesn't copy-paste.)
16:28:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I didn't see any C?
16:29:01 <fizzie> =ul ((0)(15)(14)(1)(2)(12)(11)(10)(3)(9)(8)(7)(5)(4)(13)(6))(~^:()SSa~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a*~(x)S:^):^
16:29:01 <fungot-test> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
16:29:09 <fizzie> It's in that "empty" pair of () before the SSA.
16:29:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, xchat probably hides it
16:29:29 <Vorpal> =ul (12)S(*a(~:)~*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~:()~)~*^(a(:^)*~a(*()~)~*^~^):^
16:29:30 <fungot-test> 122112122122112112212112122112112122122112122121121122122112122122112112122121122122112122122112112212112122122112112122112112212112112212211212212112212212112112212211212212112112212112122112112122121122122112122122112112122112112212212112122112112212112112212212112122112112122122112122121121122122121122122112122122112112 ...too much output!
16:29:35 <Vorpal> =ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
16:29:35 <fungot-test> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
16:29:44 <Vorpal> ^ul (12)S(*a(~:)~*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~:()~)~*^(a(:^)*~a(*()~)~*^~^):^
16:29:46 <fungot> 122112122122112112212112122112112122122112122121121122122112122122112112122121122122112122122112112212112122122112112122112112212112112212211212212112212212112112212211212212112112212112122112112122121122122112122122112112122112112212212112122112112212112112212212112122112112122122112122121121122122121122122112122122112112 ...too much output!
16:29:48 <Vorpal> Well it is the same anyway
16:30:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess it works?
16:30:30 <fizzie> Seems so. Every command also uses at least G and N from STRN, since that's used to detect a command.
16:30:40 <fizzie> I guess it might be empty.
16:30:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you ever use F from STRN? You do use F but I don't know if it is from STRN
16:31:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, F is the one I'm most dubious of my implementation
16:31:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's used for finding the bot's name, at least.
16:31:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, I basically took the eglibc strstr and adapted it to funge_cell* instead of char*
16:31:55 <fizzie> Since fungot-test said something, apparently it works up to some degree.
16:31:56 <fungot> fizzie: otherwise they'd still teach pascal, scheme, and don't recognize the person, who seems to hate java... it's like a cross between them), but
16:31:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh, so I need some model files?
16:32:05 <fizzie> Oh, that was regular fungot, sorry.
16:32:06 <fungot> fizzie: anyone know anything regarding mzscheme and vim integration with a rapid development environment, dr. watson
16:32:20 <fizzie> I guess; though there might be some other place F is used.
16:32:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, can you upload a small model file or something so I can test that?
16:32:38 -!- fungot-test has quit (Quit: fungot-test).
16:32:44 <Vorpal> Also where do I put it?
16:32:58 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:33:15 <Vorpal> <Gracenotes> oh, esoteric programming. carry on. <-- you know, what the channel is *supposed* to be about :P
16:33:46 <ion> Oh, wasn’t #esoteric-nonblah for that?
16:34:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: It needs to go in the current directory, and be named "model.bin.foo" and "tokens.bin.foo", and then you need a "styles.list" file that contains "foo\0a description for foo\0\n".
16:34:08 <Vorpal> Just checked, that channel was empty
16:34:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, link for a small one?
16:35:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130726-ct.tar.gz
16:35:26 <fizzie> (For the model "ct", aka the Chrono Trigger one.)
16:35:51 <Vorpal> tar: model.bin.ct: time stamp 2013-07-26 19:02:09 is 1595.876714959 s in the future
16:36:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think your clock is weird. I just checked mine with ntpdate and it is fine
16:36:16 <fizzie> I have a very mysterious clock skew issue.
16:36:24 <fizzie> That running ntpd doesn't fix.
16:36:50 <fizzie> I haven't bothered to figure it out, it's all kinds of strange.
16:37:02 <fizzie> Running ntpdate periodically does work, though, but I seem to have misplaced my cron thing for that.
16:37:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, so this should be fine? echo -ne 'ct\0Test description\0\n' > styles.list
16:37:48 -!- fungot-test has joined.
16:37:55 <fizzie> I'm not sure if anyone else has really tried the babbling part, so there might be issues.
16:37:58 <fungot-test> Vorpal: from where does the hero alone have the power. " m, madam...! i am the master of war! i've seen all kinds of battles from here, step back, prometheus!
16:37:58 <fungot> Vorpal: was also thinking about using a real irc client? i always am the last to display. this will get you nowhere in the conversation so far."
16:38:04 <Vorpal> fungot-test, once again
16:38:04 <fungot-test> Vorpal: the knight spirit has the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to
16:38:04 <fungot> Vorpal: zero-terminated arbitrary numbers :d nice... are there any undergrads who look fnord or so macro?, for instance something i'm doing) say to use this
16:38:10 <fizzie> Well, that seems "all right".
16:38:11 <Vorpal> fungot-test, and the sword??
16:38:11 <fungot-test> Vorpal: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez!
16:38:12 <fungot> Vorpal: did i incorrectly say it would be
16:38:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, but is it exactly the same message as fungot would have produced given the same random seed? XD
16:38:31 <fungot> Vorpal: i wonder if anyones ever set up a workflow that automatically compiles them ( obviously)
16:38:49 <Vorpal> Yeah it guess it works for the way you use it at least
16:39:25 <fizzie> The babbling is hardcoded to use the style "irc" at boot-time, I haven't bothered to persist the selection in the save file.
16:39:37 <fizzie> I guess you could try =def something, =save, then quit and restart.
16:39:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't trust mycology though at all, since it managed to pass F while testing for "cd" in "abcdef" completely failed due to forgetting to multiply by sizeof(funge_cell) in a call to memcmp!
16:39:52 <fizzie> The save-file handling also uses STRN, I believe. (Or perhaps just FILE's line-level routines.)
16:40:43 <fizzie> There's no hardcoded =help.
16:41:02 <fizzie> But it should've said "saved", I think.
16:41:04 <Vorpal> how do you show all defines then?
16:41:18 <fizzie> But there are none yet, I think.
16:41:20 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:41:29 <fungot> (^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool)S
16:41:51 <Vorpal> =def help ul (=<lang> <code>; =def <command> <lang> <code>; =show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; =str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; =style [style]; =bool)S
16:42:01 <fizzie> Hmm, I guess you could try the str functionality too, since it does strings.
16:42:25 <Deewiant> Vorpal: I think F in Mycology looks for "oba" in "foobar"
16:42:36 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I wonder how THAT worked then
16:42:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, could you test ^save and see if it prints anything from the normal fungot? Just so I don't go off chasing a bug that isn't there
16:43:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: You need to have a (sub)directory called "data", I think.
16:43:09 <fizzie> Since the save file is "data/fungot.dat".
16:43:10 <fungot> fizzie: i don't know how yet... :()
16:43:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, why not use DIRF or whatever it is called?
16:43:41 <fizzie> I'm not sure why it's in a directory anyway, since the model files aren't.
16:43:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm that is just a bunch of numbers?
16:43:55 <fizzie> Yes, it has a very number-heavy format.
16:44:22 <fizzie> Yes, it's certainly not too efficient.
16:44:25 <Vorpal> well lets reboot it and see if it remembers the stuff
16:44:31 -!- fungot-test has quit (Quit: fungot-test).
16:44:44 <fizzie> In the meanwhile, I'll see if the str: thing works on the real deal.
16:45:12 <fizzie> Maybe it was def-only.
16:45:40 <fizzie> Yeah, apparently it's def-only.
16:45:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, okay, it doesn't want to start, no output whatsoever
16:46:21 <Vorpal> open("data/fungot.dat", O_RDONLY) = 3
16:46:21 <Vorpal> fcntl(3, F_SETFD, FD_CLOEXEC) = 0
16:46:21 <Vorpal> fstat(3, {st_mode=S_IFREG|0644, st_size=533, ...}) = 0
16:46:21 <Vorpal> mmap(NULL, 4096, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS, -1, 0) = 0x7f4ad54db000
16:46:21 <Vorpal> read(3, "(foo)S\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nhelp\n1\n40\n61\n60\n"..., 4096) = 533
16:46:21 <fungot> Vorpal: back later, bye all. be back later
16:46:26 <Vorpal> So related to the data file I guess
16:46:37 <fizzie> The state file is loaded first, so it's probably related to that. Note that it could easily be a fungot bug, it hasn't really been tested all that much.
16:46:37 <fungot> fizzie: we can't make recursive calls in gcc.... fnord?
16:46:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, -t 3 shows ... > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > ...
16:46:55 <Vorpal> I wonder where that is...
16:47:06 <fizzie> A reflecting I, most likely.
16:47:31 <Vorpal> ah yes -t 9 shows coordinates
16:47:34 <fizzie> I think it's FILE's L.
16:48:00 <Vorpal> tix=0 tid=0 x=26 y=114: I (73)
16:48:00 <Vorpal> Stack has 2 elements, top 5 (or less) elements:
16:48:03 <fizzie> Or maybe it's FILE's I and someone else's L was renamed to I.
16:48:26 <Vorpal> There is no I on line 113-115, so that y is bogus
16:48:34 <Vorpal> unless fungot.b98 is not loaded at origin?
16:48:35 <fungot> Vorpal: fnord), which is the body of a clause like this in my next upload
16:48:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's an offset of 100.
16:48:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's that "> 1-I" section on line 15.
16:49:28 <Vorpal> back, wasn't mine, and looked like a false alarm anyway
16:49:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, then why is y=114?!
16:49:59 <fizzie> Well, line 15 in a 1-based line numbering.
16:50:04 <fizzie> [19:48:41] <fizzie> Vorpal: There's an offset of 100.
16:50:23 <fizzie> After a closer look, I think the I is STRN's L.
16:50:34 <Vorpal> missed that line, derp
16:50:38 <Vorpal> I blame the heat. 26 C
16:51:08 <fizzie> I think it's gotten an empty line that it didn't expect.
16:51:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, there were a bunch at the start of the file, after the defined str:0
16:52:07 <fizzie> Those are expected. I think.
16:52:18 <fizzie> (It's for the other str:N's.)
16:53:19 <olsner> back to only one fungot?
16:53:20 <fungot> olsner: those little buggers out... for a few weeks
16:53:38 <Vorpal> How do I get a public link on dropbox? They must have changed it since I last did that
16:53:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, https://www.dropbox.com/s/v8lnd9s3qznsaw1/fungot.dat
16:53:55 <fungot> Vorpal: reachability graphs are not too bad
16:54:01 <Vorpal> Does that file look wrong?
16:54:14 <Vorpal> olsner, debugging why it is failing
16:54:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not immediately. Though the I in question is involved in loading the str: strings, in fact. But it really shouldn't mind empty lines there.
16:55:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: What it does is essentially G: [go elsewhere if 0] >1-I where the G is FILE/G and the I is STRN/L.
16:55:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: (It's the bit that strips a newline off, I think.)
16:56:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, My change to L is trivial in fact...
16:56:25 <fizzie> But if G returns 0, it would have gone elsewhere; and if G returns something >0, doing 1-I should be okay, since the string under the number-of-bytes return from FILE/G should be at least that long.
16:57:21 <zzo38> Do you have any ideas about Magic: the Gathering card in computer program? I have had some and mentioned some in here; do you have a different idea?
16:57:23 <Vorpal> I haven't changed FILE at all
16:57:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess I could build the old version again and try that on the same data file
16:58:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can also ask for a trace with stack-dumps, and paste the bit around where the >1-I loop starts.
16:59:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah the old cfunge also loops on that
16:59:47 <Deewiant> What about the super-old version that fungot runs on?
16:59:48 <fungot> Deewiant: remember to tell me it actually says " ninety... nine... bottles of fnord flood!
17:00:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, I let it run for 3 seconds and got a 43 MB trace file heh
17:00:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, right... it's going to -- well, it should -- ask for a 0-length substring. Do you reflect on that?
17:00:55 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I don't know what version that is!
17:01:02 <Deewiant> Vorpal: I imagine fizzie can tell you
17:01:03 <Vorpal> if (n <= 0 || len < (size_t)n) {
17:01:09 <Vorpal> That is the only time I reflect
17:01:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, yes. I think n == 0 is valid.
17:01:50 <fizzie> (Admittedly it's kind of a corner case.)
17:02:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I don't know. Does the spec say anything? Did I change it? Let me check the log for that file
17:02:13 <fizzie> "For R,L,M Requesting 0 or more characters from an empty string returns an empty string. Specifiying a negative size for R,L,M is an error and will reflect."
17:02:30 <fizzie> It might not have said this when you were implementing it; you know this spec, it's kind of a living document.
17:02:49 <fizzie> But the above sort of implies that L of 0 from a non-empty string should be okay, since it's not a negative size.
17:02:54 <Vorpal> Well what revision of cfunge do you use?
17:03:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, why only from a non-empty string?
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17:03:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, I mean, also from the empty string; but that's explicit in there.
17:03:41 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:03:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway what about the case where you have "a" 9 L? Should that reflect
17:04:01 <fizzie> "For R,L requesting more characters than the length of the string will return the whole string. Other interpreters may have implemented this as reflecting or returning a null string."
17:04:18 <fizzie> I think I've guarded against reflecting on that in fungot.
17:04:19 <fungot> fizzie: sorry but that's not notably better than all the scheme fans i know in moin it would tell its url
17:04:25 <Deewiant_> I like how the spec says "the behaviour is X but some have implemented this as Y"
17:04:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess I'll update that
17:04:42 <fizzie> Also I'm using cfunge 0.3.2. :p
17:04:44 <Deewiant_> I'm not sure if that should be read as "you should implement this as X" or "you can't know which will happen"
17:04:52 <fizzie> "I'll update real soon now."
17:05:30 <fizzie> What's your current version number?
17:05:57 <fizzie> (For the record, my state file seems to have a couple of empty lines too.)
17:06:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, but A LOT changed since that in bzr
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17:07:44 <Vorpal> So... For L would this cover it?
17:07:47 <Vorpal> stack_push(ip->stack, '\0');'
17:07:53 <Vorpal> } else if (len < (size_t)n) {
17:08:06 <Vorpal> Well I need to fix the memory leak in the middle case
17:08:09 <Deewiant> Do you need to special-case 0?
17:08:22 <Vorpal> Deewiant, yes because of the other case is:
17:08:26 <Vorpal> stack_push(ip->stack, '\0');
17:08:27 <Vorpal> stack_push_string_multibyte(ip->stack, s, (size_t)(n - 1));
17:08:35 <Vorpal> Pretty sure that n-1 is going to screw things up
17:08:58 <Vorpal> Since 0-1 cast to size_t would be LONG_MAX or similar
17:09:45 <Vorpal> Okay fixed L only so far, but that seems to make fungot happy
17:09:46 <fungot> Vorpal: and baby jesus cries, yes yes. spare me the fnord
17:09:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: That behaviour seems fine. (The reflect test in cfunge-0.3.2 was apparently if (n < 0 || len < (size_t)n) which is why fungot works.)
17:09:58 <fungot> fizzie: ( eat *this*, bash.org))) but it stil doesn't work. g
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17:10:05 <fungot> Vorpal: you do have a scgi server that talks to java applet clients concerned with efficiency, i'll try
17:10:22 <fungot> Vorpal: then call her and have fun or do something irreversible, the value,
17:10:35 <Vorpal> I guess the server is bad
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17:10:47 <fungot-test> (=<lang> <code>; =def <command> <lang> <code>; =show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; =str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; =style [style]; =bool)S
17:10:49 <fungot-test> =<lang> <code>; =def <command> <lang> <code>; =show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; =str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; =style [style]; =bool
17:11:07 <Gracenotes> I should make a programming language where programs are executed by two IRC bots talking back and forth.
17:11:08 -!- fungot-test has quit (Client Quit).
17:11:23 <Gracenotes> for hundreds and hundreds of lines, potentially.
17:12:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, interesting, wrt n=0 R and L had different behaviours before
17:12:54 <Gracenotes> in a thematically meaningful way, though. So it's as if two computers with different capabilities were computing things in a cluster with ultra-law latency.
17:14:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, if memory serves me right, when I was switching fungot to cfunge I hit the issue that your STRN/L reflected on n > len, and had to change all my 17G4L" oof"C| is-this-the-command test to 17GN3`|4L" oof"C| instead -- because you refused to change it to conform to the new spec since it didn't have any versioning or changelogs and kept being silently changed. :p
17:14:13 <fungot> fizzie: minus273 you're in china? i have no idea
17:14:58 <fizzie> (In the code examples above, | denotes a go-somewhere-else-or-continue if.)
17:14:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I dislike silent changes still, but I guess my attitude changed somewhat
17:15:20 <Deewiant> Well Mike's dead now so it's probably not changing any more
17:15:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, where is that N from?
17:16:08 <fizzie> STRN/N, it's an explicit "is this long enough for L" pre-check.
17:17:37 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I notice you have these things as UNDEF in mycology as well
17:17:59 * Vorpal tries to figure out his own M code
17:18:13 <Deewiant> Like I said earlier I'm not sure how to interpret his "the behaviour is X but some have implemented this as Y"
17:18:17 <Vorpal> I'm starting to see the point of not using single letter variables now
17:18:21 <Deewiant> Does that mean X is right or both are right
17:19:11 <Vorpal> "For M, specifying a length that would go beyond the end of the string is legal and will return from the start til the end of the string. Other interpreters may have implemented this as reflecting." <-- I have that as reflecting I believe
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17:21:26 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I would suggest for M that if the start of the substring is after the end of the string, it should reflect. (The spec page doesn't mention that, as far as I can see?)
17:21:54 <Vorpal> Unless "For M, specifying a length that would go beyond the end of the string is legal and will return from the start til the end of the string." refers to that, as opposed to just a substring with a legal start that extends past the end of the string?
17:22:02 <Deewiant> Check what RC/Funge-98 does :-P
17:22:09 <Vorpal> In which case, it seems silly that they should have different behaviors
17:22:34 <fizzie> I feel that if you allow past-the-end extension for L and R, then you arguably should allow it for M too. (The start-past-the-end thing could still go differently.)
17:22:44 <Vorpal> Oh wait, the next line does specify it
17:22:51 <Vorpal> Right, I'll go with what the page says then
17:24:37 <Vorpal> Deewiant, with UNDEF: "ooF"24M eats the string, what do you mean exactly? That it leaves nothing on the stack?
17:25:18 <Vorpal> Well guess I have an off by one error then!
17:25:19 <olsner> Gracenotes: are you sure an apt-get purge is enough?
17:25:23 <fizzie> (In fact, as far as invariants go, it'd be nice if <str><0><n>M would always equal <str><n>L for any str, n.)
17:25:45 <Vorpal> Deewiant, surely if the "preferred" behaviour is used, it should leave a single o right?
17:27:06 <Vorpal> Must be an off by one error then...
17:27:10 <Vorpal> } else if (slen < (size_t)(p + n)) {
17:27:16 <Vorpal> Does that look wrong to you?
17:27:26 <Vorpal> p is the starting position, n the lenght
17:27:46 <Vorpal> slen is basically strlen() of course
17:28:43 <Gracenotes> ah, that's better. 'After this operation, 80.8 MB disk space will be freed.'
17:28:46 <Vorpal> Yeah... So why does it eat the string then?
17:29:18 <Vorpal> It was a rhetorical question
17:31:10 <Vorpal> How did it hit that code on GOOD: "zaBraBooF"34M is "BarB"
17:31:10 <Vorpal> I guess the condition is wrong??
17:31:10 <Vorpal> Oh I didn't rebuild XD
17:34:56 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I actually do push the o...
17:36:41 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I don't think your check is accurate, since the stack after that call is (TOS last) 14 0 111
17:36:49 <Vorpal> Not sure what that 14 is, but 111 is 0
17:37:05 <Deewiant> Inverted condition? :852s/!/z/
17:37:27 <Deewiant> Replace the first ! on line 852 with z
17:38:40 <Vorpal> Why is the file read only?
17:38:53 <Deewiant> I assume that is also rhetorical
17:39:01 <Vorpal> No I blame your .txz file
17:39:42 <Vorpal> (not an interrobang that is)
17:39:51 <Deewiant> I never remember which way _ goes on zero/nonzero
17:40:01 <Vorpal> BAD: J should push -1119007 given [-7777,2,29]
17:40:06 <Vorpal> Deewiant, infinite loop of that now
17:40:17 <Vorpal> Deewiant, sure you got the line right?
17:40:29 <Vorpal> Wait if I revert the change it still happens? What
17:40:45 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I think DATE broke?
17:40:54 <Deewiant> It should be the line with stuff like "gnirts eht stae" and a few M's :-P
17:41:01 <Vorpal> I haven't touched DATE
17:41:43 <Vorpal> Deewiant, does mycology.b98 contain something non-printable or such that my editor (kate) might have fucked up?
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17:42:10 <Deewiant> Vorpal: It's not UTF-anything and it has at least an embedded null IIRC
17:42:33 <Vorpal> I guess that might have caused it
17:42:58 <Deewiant> You can pull it from github, I pushed the change
17:43:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, link to your github for this?
17:43:25 <Deewiant> github.com/deewiant/mycology I guess
17:47:06 <Vorpal> Well that seems to be it. Hm
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17:47:30 <Vorpal> I'm still not sure about F hrrm
17:48:04 <Vorpal> I don't like that clang -O2 (LLVM 3.2 and 3.3) miscompiled previously, but stopped doing that when I changed a function in another translation unit
17:49:01 <Deewiant> Thus far I think every LLVM miscompilation bug I've thought I've had (or even filed, in at least one case) has been an undefined behaviour case in my own code
17:49:50 <Deewiant> (The one I filed turned out to be running over an array on the stack IIRC)
17:49:57 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well it just decided to add (unsigned int)-1 to %rsp about 5 times at the start of the function
17:50:12 <Vorpal> actually subtract not add
17:50:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was almost exactly 4*2^32.
17:50:34 <Deewiant> There's no unsigned values in x86 asm
17:50:35 <Vorpal> Oh okay, misremebered then
17:50:44 <Deewiant> Or no signed values if you prefer that train of thought
17:50:57 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I forgot the exact value I read in the gdb disassemble
17:51:12 <Vorpal> I was describing what it looked equivalent of
17:51:23 <Vorpal> but fizzie said it was 4*2^32 in my paste
17:51:41 <fizzie> It looked equivalent of uint32_t foo[unsigned -1];.
17:51:55 <Vorpal> Deewiant, anyway I took the code for strstr from eglibc and adopted it to funge_cell* instead of char*
17:52:10 <fizzie> Er, (unsigned)-1, I mean.
17:52:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, no arrays were allocated on the stack in that function though!
17:52:32 <Vorpal> Unless it was inlined from some header or such
17:52:35 <fizzie> Translation unit boundaries aren't such iron walls these days anymore either, right?
17:52:49 <Vorpal> True, but I don't think I enabled LTO
17:53:32 <Vorpal> Just checked the functions that it calls, no arrays on the stack there either
17:53:43 <Vorpal> Plenty of arrays yes, but all of them as pointer arguments
17:54:54 <fizzie> (echo 'CONDOR DONE'; sleep 300) | dzen2 -x 100 -y 100 -w 200 -h 200 -bg red -fg black heh, fancy bits and pieces in old throwaway scripts
17:55:16 <fizzie> I think that's called "poor man's notifyd".
17:55:55 <Vorpal> Tried that fancy newish cmake backend called ninja, supposed to be faster than make. Somewhat yes.
17:56:02 <Deewiant> fizzie: I see you're part of the menace that causes swapping and whatnot on innocent people's desktops
17:56:08 <Vorpal> Guess it would be easier to notice on something larger than cfunge
17:57:12 <Vorpal> What is Condor in this context? Not the bird I presume...
17:58:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a "use idle workstations as a cluster" system.
17:58:12 <Deewiant> http://research.cs.wisc.edu/htcondor/
17:58:30 <fizzie> I guess technically it's HTCondor now.
17:58:41 <fizzie> "Note: The HTCondor software was known as 'Condor' from 1988 until its name changed in 2012. If you are looking for Phoenix Software International's software development and library management system for z/VSE or z/OS, click here."
17:59:42 <Vorpal> Ouch, smells of trademark dispute
18:00:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's even worse than that; my workstation these days is in SPA and not part of the ICS Condor, yet I still use it.
18:01:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, pushed the changes to cfunge, I would suggest getting the latest bzr for now, not sure I will do an actual 0.9.1 release any time soon
18:01:46 <Deewiant> fizzie: Shouldn't your ICS account be gone or something?
18:02:28 <zzo38> Have you ever used self-modifying code in GWBASIC?
18:03:10 <shachaf> Isn't an ASIC kind of contradictory to self-modifying code?
18:03:50 <Vorpal> Hm, tup supports variants nowdays
18:03:59 <Vorpal> I guess that would suffice for my needs then
18:04:17 <Vorpal> Not sure how to do the configuration... Really don't want to write a shell script for that
18:04:31 <Deewiant> Vorpal: If you come up with a good solution let me know
18:04:40 <Vorpal> Deewiant, for the config stuff? yeah right...
18:04:59 <Deewiant> I'll probably either go with perl or then just resign myself to cmake+ninja
18:05:02 <Vorpal> Since I currently use a fairly large cmake configuration (387 lines + several modules)
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18:05:29 <Vorpal> Deewiant, just tried out ninja as a backend, it seems to work, but it removes the color from the clang warnings
18:05:36 <Vorpal> not sure how that can be fixed
18:06:01 <Vorpal> Or is it just clang saying "this is not an interactive terminal, screw it!"
18:06:14 <Deewiant> It's clang saying this is not a terminal period
18:06:53 <Vorpal> Deewiant, make edit_cache opens ccmake again, ninja edit_cache just hangs
18:06:58 <elliott> btw just writing a configure.py with ninja_syntax.py is pretty easy
18:06:59 <Vorpal> Guess they didn't test that properly
18:07:05 <elliott> you don't really need a meta build system at least for simple stuff
18:07:09 <Deewiant> "Easy" is relative, changing CFLAGS does nothing in tup
18:08:14 <Vorpal> elliott, very true, cfunge has a non-trivial configuration though, such as "this function is in librt on linux and libc on freebsd"
18:08:24 <Vorpal> Deewiant, works for cmake+ninja though
18:08:50 <Deewiant> With a configuration system it's easy
18:08:56 <fizzie> Deewiant: We have an adjustment period.
18:09:09 <Deewiant> fizzie: You have both accounts now, then, or just ICS?
18:09:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, Right, but you should be able to handle CFLAGS on tup right?
18:09:12 <fizzie> Vorpal: Department of Signal Processing and Acoustics. (Our group moved.)
18:09:23 <fizzie> Deewiant: Both, but there isn't much of a computing infrastructure at SPA.
18:09:29 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Not in pure tup, I don't think; not sure
18:09:37 <Deewiant> Can't remember, haven't touched it in a while
18:09:45 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I thought it loaded tup.config or something to support variants?
18:10:24 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Sure there's a bunch of files but I mean you can't change it from the command line
18:10:40 <Deewiant> Vorpal: You need to edit a config file, you can't just set an environment variable or pass a parameter or whatever
18:10:58 <Vorpal> Hm I should try building cfunge for my RPi
18:10:58 <Vorpal> yeah I think that is indeed the case
18:10:58 <Vorpal> Does ninja support distcc?
18:11:03 <Vorpal> Well I guess it would?
18:11:12 <Deewiant> Does distcc need special support?
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18:12:21 <Vorpal> Well I guess it is just a case of overriding CC
18:12:25 <Vorpal> that should work for ninja too
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18:12:58 <Vorpal> Why is package signing on my RPi broken!?!
18:14:09 <Deewiant> BTW what's the line count on current cfunge
18:15:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, don't have any tool to check that around. I changed distro back in january and never bothered installing a tool for that. Know any in the debian repos?
18:15:32 <Deewiant> I don't know about the debian repos but I usually use ohcount
18:19:16 <Vorpal> Well this is really confusing, the package keyring is broken on my RPi
18:24:16 <Deewiant> cfunge r874 is 9710 C code lines (15474 total C), or 12411 (19820 total) when including the stuff in lib/ that's from others
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18:29:32 <Deewiant> mushspace is only 9193 (12696 total), but it'll probably grow past cfunge before it's done
18:32:55 <Vorpal> Deewiant, heh, my gpg keyring file was corrupt
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18:34:55 <zzo38> The Dungeons&Dragons session I have played in Wednesday was one player; the other player decided not to play.
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18:51:26 <Vorpal> Deewiant, hm seems I have a HRTI granularity of 3 µs on the RPi.
18:53:06 <Vorpal> No, just amusing to see something other than "1 µs"
18:53:35 <Vorpal> Deewiant, On a PC you get granularity in the ns range (though HRTI doesn't support that)
18:54:26 <Deewiant> On Windows I got 16 ms with my initial implementation in CCBI IIRC
18:55:10 <Deewiant> Yep, https://code.google.com/p/javasimon/wiki/SystemTimersGranularity
18:55:29 <Deewiant> "15.625 ms is reported ms timer frequency on multi-processor HW (or multicore as in my case) while 10 ms are reported on single processor"
18:55:36 <Vorpal> Oh? On Linux I always got like 1-3 ns internally on my old Sempron CPU. Never checked what the resolution is on my current CPU
18:55:36 <Vorpal> I use clock_gettime which returns the time in nanoseconds, and then I do a loop to determine the actual granularity
18:55:44 <zzo38> Do you have Famicompo mini vol.10?
18:56:34 <Vorpal> Deewiant, The timer granularity is 1 ns, but since I check that with a loop, it means that it can end up as slightly more for obvious reasons
18:57:08 <Vorpal> Deewiant, pretty sure you can use QueryPerformanceCounter or whatever on windows for better precision
18:57:36 <Deewiant> Vorpal: In that link it says "the call itself takes around 150 ns", Java's got some overhead there though
18:57:46 <Deewiant> And yes, I think I do something better on Windows nowadays
18:58:16 <Vorpal> Deewiant, right. Anyway on Linux clock_gettime doesn't even make a system calls. It reads a page with the counter in it that the kernel mapped into every user space process
18:59:53 <fizzie> Huh, they've made the "EATX" extra 12V power connector have 8 pins nowadays?
18:59:53 <Vorpal> Deewiant, yeah it does some fancy not-really-locking to read both s and ns in a thread safe way. IIRC it reads a serial counter first, then reads s and ns, then reads the serial counter again to check it didn't change, if it did it tries again
19:00:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, seems the power goes up and up. My GPU requires two 4 pin connectors to work
19:01:48 <fizzie> I'm trying to figure if my old PSU would still be good for some hardware upgrades, but it's tricky; especially since I have no idea what the PSU model was, and it doesn't seem to have any markings on the sides that are visible.
19:02:01 <Vorpal> Deewiant, it is part of that VDSO thingy
19:02:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, no brand or stickers?
19:02:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, if it is still in the case, maybe the sticker or brand is on the top/bottom side that isn't visible?
19:03:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm sure it is, but it sounds like such a hassle to start unscrewing it.
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19:03:21 <olsner> fizzie: even if the motherboard has fancy extra EATX plugs, you can (at least sometimes) get away without connecting a psu to them
19:03:24 <fizzie> Plus I'm using this machine.
19:03:31 <olsner> at least until something tries to use too much power
19:03:46 <Vorpal> olsner, and then you are really out of luck
19:03:55 <fizzie> olsner: The manual (well, this particular one) says it's okay to connect the older 4-pin extra 12V connector to the 8-pin receptable.
19:04:20 <fizzie> The PSU has a 4-pin one that's connected to the 4-pin receptable that's in the current motherboard, I was able to see that much.
19:04:38 <olsner> Vorpal: well, I guess you have to get a new power supply then, but only if/when you get there
19:05:42 <Vorpal> Deewiant, are you sure 1/0 in FPSP can be NaN instead of +inf?
19:06:28 <Deewiant> Is IEEE-754 or the like mandated anywhere? :-P
19:07:11 <Vorpal> Well I would assume so
19:07:29 <Vorpal> Deewiant, So what does IEEE-754 say about this? I don't have it
19:08:31 <Deewiant> a/+0 is is signbit(a) * inf unless a is ±0
19:09:12 <Vorpal> Well then, -1/0 should be -inf and not NaN
19:09:52 <olsner> what about a/-0? is that -signbit(a)*inf?
19:10:55 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well I guess FPSP/FPDP doesn't mandate IEEE-754, but if you don't assume that it does, I suspect that several of the other test expectations might not be reasonable either
19:12:57 <Vorpal> Deewiant, asin(2) being NaN. If you don't have IEEE-754, you might not have +/- inf or NaN.
19:13:08 <Vorpal> You could have something completely different
19:13:16 <Vorpal> Like throwing an exception
19:13:38 <Vorpal> Not likely sure, but allowed yes, since there is then no actual specification on anything
19:13:56 <Vorpal> Deewiant, yes that would be a way to handle "system throwing an exception" indeed
19:14:08 <Deewiant> If it doesn't I'll fix it if somebody implements FP[SD]P on a non-NaN-having system ;-P
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19:14:35 <Vorpal> Deewiant, Erlang throws an exception on Nan or +/- inf
19:15:35 <Vorpal> Let me check how I handled that in efunge, if I even implemented those fingerprints
19:15:56 <Vorpal> I have not implemented those in efunge
19:16:00 <Vorpal> probably for that reason
19:16:48 <Vorpal> I did implement FIXP, and I'm doing try-catch on every asin or such that I call there, and push 0 in those cases
19:17:29 <Deewiant> That's a pain for interoperability
19:18:20 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I believe the reasoning is that no normal application should get those values, and it is better to detect those errors when they happen.
19:18:37 <Vorpal> And properly log them and reset the thread in question
19:18:54 <Vorpal> Implementing befunge is not a typical erlang program after all
19:20:31 <fizzie> "Kingston 2048MB (2GB) KIT 533MHz" "201.90 EUR" things certainly have changed.
19:20:37 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:21:33 -!- sacje has joined.
19:21:37 <fizzie> I think I found the power supply, and it claims to be 400W.
19:21:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah, I would go for 8 GB modules nowdays. Probably 4 x 8 GB
19:22:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, a bit on the weak side maybe, depending on what you plan to put in the computer
19:22:17 <Vorpal> I have a 700 W PSU iirc
19:22:22 <Vorpal> or 650, I don't remember
19:22:44 <fizzie> I don't have all that concrete plans yet, but probably nothing terribly exciting, at least as far as GPUs go.
19:23:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about rotating HDDs? Especially when they are all spinning up at the same time at boot you will get a spike in the power usage
19:23:48 <fizzie> I've got a couple (3) of those.
19:24:45 <fizzie> Oh, interestingly: turns out my SSD is not actually attached to the chassis, it's just lying there at the bottom of the bay where the HDDs slot into.
19:25:03 <fizzie> Even though I'm pretty sure I have two or three 2.5"-to-3.5" brackets somewhere here.
19:25:18 <fizzie> I have the vaguest recollection that there was some reason why the brackets didn't fit, though.
19:26:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, are you getting a new case?
19:26:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, well if you are, I would suggest something with dust filters
19:26:31 <Vorpal> While not perfect they help a LOT
19:26:58 <fizzie> It's got some. (The one in front looks kind of terrible, I think I need to take it out and clean it.)
19:27:40 <fizzie> (There's also still quite a lot of dust inside, but I haven't probably opened it in the last two years or so.)
19:33:22 <Vorpal> I clean the filters every time I clean the room
19:33:55 <Vorpal> I need to clean the case maybe once per year to remove a thin layer of dust (+ quite a bit in the fans) rather than once every month or so to remove a lot of dust
19:34:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, not sure what type of dust filter you have, for me it is just a thin plastic wire mesh
19:34:30 <zzo38> I have finished typing recording of this session of Dungeons&Dragons game.
19:34:36 <Vorpal> Guess it would be more annoying to clean filters more similar to say that of a vacuum cleaner
19:35:51 <fizzie> I haven't really looked all that closely at the filters.
19:39:27 <kmc> I have a server with two SSDs that are just taped to the inside of the chassis
19:39:53 <kmc> dust filters are great
19:40:55 <kmc> you can get cheap filter kits that attach to an existing fan bay on any case
19:41:13 <kmc> eg http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811988015
19:41:56 <fizzie> I don't really like hardware. :/
19:42:17 <fizzie> Why can't I just upgrade my computer by editing some config file somewhere?
19:42:34 <kmc> Nix should support that
19:42:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, so have you updated to the latest trunk of cfunge yet?
19:43:28 <fizzie> Well, no. I've been just inhaling dust.
19:43:43 <fizzie> And hitting my head on the bottom of a desk.
19:44:00 <fizzie> And other such stupid things that are involved in anything dealing with computer hardware grumble grumble.
19:44:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, why do you have it below the desk?
19:44:39 <Vorpal> I have it in a bookshelf next to the desk, higher up from the floor, means a bit less dust too
19:45:04 <fizzie> Because there's no space on top of the desk. Or in the bookshelf. Plus those have doors, I'm not sure how good airflow that would have.
19:45:24 <Vorpal> Ah yes, that sort of bookshelf would be an issue
19:45:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, you would get less dust though!
19:45:41 <Vorpal> What about watercooling?
19:46:12 <Vorpal> I have noticed I need to improve the cooling in my desktop, though I don't like the sound levels when I switch the case fans to a higher speed
19:46:18 <Vorpal> So I need some other way to do that
19:46:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, you never play computer games?
19:46:59 <fizzie> Sure I do, but I'm not a "gamer". It's a thing.
19:47:37 <fizzie> Now I completely forgot what I was supposed to do in this terminal. It's got "cd " written in it, so I suppose I was going somewhere.
19:47:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, What is the difference?
19:48:13 <fizzie> Gamers are the kind of people who don't understand any demoscene things. (The Assembly event is next weekend.)
19:48:25 <fizzie> (It's very much about the gamer-vs-demofolk dichotomy.)
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19:51:20 <fizzie> Now on revision 874. (Not on fungot yet, that is; just in general.)
19:51:21 <fungot> fizzie: fnord my firefox.)
19:51:42 <fungot> olsner: where does it say? it isn't written in cyrillic with the palatalizing character.
19:53:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, so once fungot restarts it will be on the new version?
19:53:34 <fungot> Vorpal: the winner will be optimizing by hand a basic c compiler in the works? surely not i. i would love a one-page version of it
19:54:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, not quite. I need to get a compiled copy on the box fungot's running on, and I don't think there's gcc installed there.
19:54:09 <fungot> fizzie: on first line. second line is a list of symbols). is that a bug?
19:54:20 <fizzie> Usually I've built elsewhere.
19:54:38 <fizzie> Also I can't figure out where I put the version with the built-in chroot changes.
19:55:10 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:55:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't know how old your old version was, but at some point I started using libbsd if that existed for strlcpy. So check with ldd and check that it is installed on the target system if so
19:55:45 <fizzie> "libbsd0" seems to be installed.
20:11:02 <fizzie> I don't know if I should build with EXACT_BOUNDS or not.
20:11:20 <fizzie> (This copy won't probably ever be used for anything else than fungot.)
20:11:20 <fungot> fizzie: and he was too little to break it up into new starts in 15 minutes or so
20:14:31 <fizzie> I suppose I could try the result out.
20:14:32 <Deewiant> Of course you should, it should be the default with an UNSAFE_NO_EXACT_BOUNDS opt-out instead
20:14:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, eh, not sure if you use the bounds from y
20:14:49 <fizzie> Deewiant: It does default ON.
20:14:52 <Vorpal> Deewiant, pretty sure it defaults to ON
20:15:02 -!- fungot has quit (Quit: fungot).
20:15:06 <Deewiant> I recalled that it was off at least at some point
20:15:32 -!- fungot has joined.
20:15:40 <fizzie> Well, that's on r874 now.
20:15:44 <fungot> Vorpal: scale it up after i tap c-d a few times i ran it on
20:15:46 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:15:52 <fizzie> fungot: Are you feeling quite normal?
20:15:53 <fungot> fizzie: cvs emacs cannot display images on the linux ime front. the best case
20:15:55 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
20:16:11 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping
20:16:13 <fizzie> Sounds like its usual self.
20:20:39 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
20:26:18 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
20:26:21 <fungot> Vorpal: during/ successive reprints :)/ first number :)/ primary wing-feathers is a constant tendency to fill up wide intervals in/ natural history :) these islands, as well as congenital peculiarities, are transmitted; so it appears to be a systematic naturalist, on/ principle :) inheritance--the occurrence :) rudimentary. -conversion :) stamens into imperfect petals, and occasionally quite black./ plainer males :) these japan
20:26:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is going on?
20:26:23 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
20:26:32 <fungot> shachaf: orange. -crossing :) domestic and wild cats. -of breeds :) pigs. -on interbreeding. -in/ himalayan. -crossing :) domestic and wild swine. -on/ dingo.
20:27:04 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
20:28:57 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:50:22 <fizzie> From where I am, I saw your four ^style darwin ... fungot ping lines all on the same second.
20:50:22 <fungot> fizzie: after i logged off i realized i did something like that.
20:52:08 <HackEgo> 185) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 214) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could m
20:52:20 <olsner> fungot: how can you realize something after you log off?
20:52:21 <fungot> olsner: acarrico's pointer to the image show right for both of you :p) have a fullscreen irc client.
20:53:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: zzote: not found
20:53:36 <Bike> `quote '<zzo38>'
20:53:44 <Bike> `quote <zzo38>
20:53:46 <HackEgo> 27) <zzo38> I am not on the moon. \ 116) <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple \ 150) <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream \ 182) <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minec
20:53:52 <Bike> `run quote '<zzo38>'
20:53:53 <HackEgo> 27) <zzo38> I am not on the moon. \ 116) <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple \ 150) <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream \ 182) <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minec
20:54:02 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you on the moon yet?
20:54:04 <Bike> oh, it's always the same order, huh.
20:54:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quoerjandom: not found
20:54:32 <HackEgo> 897) <oerjan> fungot knows all. <fungot> oerjan: you are correct. there's no freedom for free. \ 1009) <shachaf> oerjan is spreading the tired rumour that if you play Nietzsche backwards you hear Jewish messages. \ 601) <oerjan> elliott: it occurs to me that `? welcome is atypical: its information is actually true. \ 18) <oerjan> In an alternate
20:54:54 <HackEgo> 183) <oerjan> elliott: i think i wrote a proof of 0*x = 0 on this channel once \ 831) <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> [...] "avoid success at all costs" \ 671) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside wor
20:57:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: Re the power usage thing, checked a table of these things, and apparently the most high-end cards (Radeon HD7990) these days need three (3) of the eight-pin (8) PCIe extra power connectors.
20:57:35 <HackEgo> 184) * oerjan considered buying lutefisk, but apparently it cannot be prepared in microwave </bachelor frog> \ 451) <oerjan> sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour \ 363) <elliott> oerjan: can you delete that and the meta turing completeness page <elliott> thanks <oerjan> elliott: IN UNIVERSO ALTERNATIVO, OERJAN PAGINAS DELET \ 787
20:57:41 <Bike> Shouldn't it only give one quote
20:58:18 <fizzie> (There's both 6-pin and 8-pin variants of the PCIe extra power cable; my PSU has one six-pin.)
20:58:39 <Bike> `echo bin/quoerjan
20:58:52 <Bike> there is something deeply wrong with me.
20:58:54 <Bike> `cat bin/quoerjan
20:58:55 <HackEgo> allquotes | grep oerjan | shuf
20:59:06 <Bike> `cat bin/quote
20:59:07 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
20:59:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, pretty sure mine are 4-pin? I guess I mis-remember
20:59:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, they definitely look square though
21:00:02 <Bike> `run echo allquotes | grep oerjan | shuf | head -n 1 > bin/quoerjan
21:00:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/quoerjan: Success
21:00:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: There are square 4-pin EATX extra connectors that go to motherboards; maybe some GPUs use those instead?
21:00:38 <Bike> `run echo 'allquotes | grep oerjan | shuf | head -n 1' > bin/quoerjan
21:00:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, they say PCIE in white on the black connectors
21:00:46 <HackEgo> 324) <elliott> oerjan: but hypothetically, assume a Christian spontaneously materialised during the apocalypse
21:00:52 <HackEgo> 427) <monqy> cigaretes and drunking "lame highs for lame people" <oerjan> yeah if it doesn't make you go crazy and shoot at people, it's not worth it. take it from a norwegian.
21:01:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hmm. From what I've seen, that should be a 3x2 or 4x2 pinout thing.
21:01:07 <zzo38> Can you make a game out of sequent calculus? I have a way to do but do you have a different way?
21:01:14 <fizzie> But then again, hardware.
21:01:16 <Bike> `run echo 'allquotes | grep zzo38 | shuf | head -n 1' > bin/zzote
21:01:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, how square do the 3x2 ones look though?
21:01:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/zzote: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/zzote: cannot execute: Permission denied
21:01:29 <Bike> `run chmod +x bin/zzote
21:01:34 <HackEgo> 185) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly)
21:02:04 <Bike> I'm glad I was here to witness it.
21:02:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well... http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/PC_Power_Cooling/Silencer_750W/images/pcie.jpg has one of the "new-style" ones that have the 6+2 configuration, so that you can use them both in 6-pin and 8-pin holes.
21:02:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: I guess it's reasonably squareish.
21:02:42 -!- sprocklem has joined.
21:04:45 <fizzie> (The cards also take three slots at the back.)
21:05:17 <fizzie> http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2012/12/club-3d-radeon-hd-7990-6gb-review/hd7990-4b.jpg that's just ridiculous.
21:05:30 <fizzie> (The 3*8 power pins are at the left end.)
21:05:34 <kmc> what's the red button/light do?
21:05:43 <fizzie> kmc: Probably it's a self-destruct button.
21:05:58 <kmc> you aren't *really* going nuts until you have a second ATX power supply just for peripherals
21:06:03 <Bike> self-destruct is on my mind since i read about bomb sights today
21:06:16 <Bike> the brits offered to put self destruct equipment on american bombsights in WWII
21:06:20 <olsner> the norden bomb sight?
21:07:03 <fizzie> kmc: Apparently it's a "moar speed" button.
21:07:10 -!- yorick has joined.
21:07:21 <fizzie> kmc: "Press the red button, which loads a second BIOS, and the GPU clocks up to 925MHz, representing a minor gain and effectively becoming two full-fat HD 7970s on one board."
21:07:24 -!- sacje has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:07:42 <Fiora> is that like, a turbo button?
21:07:43 <kmc> a second BIOS, just what i always wanted
21:07:44 <fizzie> I have to admit I've been kind of missing the TURBO buttons of old.
21:07:51 <kmc> i love the Turbo button
21:07:58 <kmc> it's the perfect confluence of engineering and marketing
21:07:59 <Fiora> didn't the turbo button actually make it slower though?
21:08:10 <Fiora> like I remember if you pressed it on some old 386 thing I saw once it made it drop to like 8mhz
21:08:22 <kmc> yeah it was basically a "make it slow for compatibility" button
21:08:28 <Fiora> but it was called turbo
21:08:47 <kmc> well they just inverted the sense of the button
21:08:55 <fizzie> It still also makes it faster when you unpress it.
21:09:22 <fizzie> I had a system where the turbo button was replaced with a .com program that toggled (I think) 8/16 MHz.
21:10:29 <fizzie> Sometimes there was a seven-segment led display that showed the megahurz.
21:10:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm possibly such a 6 pin one
21:11:55 <Vorpal> <fizzie> http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2012/12/club-3d-radeon-hd-7990-6gb-review/hd7990-4b.jpg that's just ridiculous. <-- is that what you are getting?
21:12:00 <olsner> Bike: I like how that cost half the manhattan project, was super duper top secret, but both sides used the same kind of bomb sights anyway since some of the swiss inventors ended up working for germany since before the war
21:12:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, that'd probably melt my current PSU down.
21:12:31 <fizzie> Not that there's enough wires in it to even plug all the holes.
21:12:45 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:12:47 <fizzie> It's just a random HD7990 card I goggled.
21:13:25 <fizzie> Apparently every 6-pin plug adds +75W of maximum power usage (to the 16x PCIe base of 75W), and every 8-pin +150W; so even with three that's just...
21:13:42 <fizzie> Bah. Our sauna stove has higher wattage than that!
21:14:10 <olsner> how many polygons per second can your sauna stove push?
21:14:19 <fizzie> (I don't know what the proper English translation for the sauna heating element is.)
21:14:27 <olsner> I bet it's only like 50Hz too
21:14:32 <fizzie> olsner: It has a very realistically rendered rock texture on top.
21:14:41 <kmc> olsner: haha
21:15:27 <kmc> fizzie: so each pin is carrying about 2 A?
21:15:32 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:15:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, my current PSU could manage that, but not sure with the rest of the components (4 HDDs, 4-core i5 at 3.3 GHz (sandy bridge) and so on)
21:15:56 <kmc> wait why should the 8-pin connector deliver twice as much power as the 6-pin
21:17:00 <kmc> "Devastate your enemies and smite those that question your gaming prowess"
21:17:38 <olsner> it's probably more about what they specified that the connector can deliver, than something to do with the connector itself
21:18:05 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 22.0/20130618035212]).
21:19:00 <Bike> olsner: nazi technology was crazy anyway. they had night vision goggles, planes with guns that automatically fired if another plane was overhead, and MACLOS missiles
21:19:51 <olsner> but it seems it would've been more future proof to add some kind of protocol where the card says how much it wants to draw and the psu says how much it can supply
21:20:00 <fizzie> kmc: I have no idea. Maybe the extra pins are thicker?
21:20:39 <olsner> ooh, MCLOS must be what that Macross anime is named after
21:22:34 <kmc> maybe the 8-pin plug is also spec'd to have thicker wires?
21:23:40 <kmc> I remember reading that the Axis and the Allies both developed radar chaff but put off using it for years because they didn't want to reveal that they had it
21:24:37 <Bike> just gotta wait for the right time *entire eastern front explodes*
21:25:35 <kmc> also that german cryptographers weren't surprised that the Enigma could be broken, but were surprised that the Allies had put in the enormous effort necessary to do so
21:26:05 <Bike> i like to imagine that there was this thing going where the germans and the british were fielding all this high tech crap, and meanwhile the soviets are just flying planes too slow and low for german fighters to take down
21:26:34 <kmc> that did happen some
21:26:48 <Bike> i don't really know about the soviet end of R&D i guess
21:26:57 <olsner> they probably sent planes at all heights and speeds, it's just that the slow and low ones were the only ones to survive
21:27:20 <kmc> the russians would fly WWI era biplanes right over the german camps at night, just to fuck with 'em
21:29:15 <Bike> yeah i was thinking of the Polikarpov Po-2
21:29:41 <Bike> "Their usual tactics involved flying only a few meters above the ground, rising for the final approach, cutting off the engine and making a gliding bombing run, leaving the targeted troops with only the eerie whistling of the wind in the wings' bracing-wires as an indication of the impending attack"
21:29:51 <kmc> not quite WWI era I guess
21:29:55 <Bike> my favorite bit is of course "the stall speed of both the Messerschmitt Bf 109 and the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 was similar to the Soviet aircraft's maximum cruise speed"
21:31:28 <kmc> Bike do you know what's the most produced vehicle of any kind ever?
21:32:15 <Bike> probably some kind of horse-drawn cart?
21:32:36 <Bike> i guess that doesn't really count as a coherent class of vehicles
21:32:47 <kmc> I mean like a particular model
21:33:01 <kmc> anyway it's the Flying Pigeon bicycle from China, 500 million made
21:34:00 <Bike> "After the Communists led by Mao Zedong came to power in 1949, the bicycle industry was revived" i assume PRC forces used bikes exclusively
21:34:16 <Bike> mao's little red bike (are they red)
21:35:03 <kmc> the one on wikipedia is black
21:35:10 * pikhq cheers, for he is finally starting to recover
21:35:26 <Bike> aw, they're black
21:36:01 <kmc> what are you recovering from?
21:36:16 <pikhq> Random testicle pain.
21:36:17 <Bike> «In 1994, the government named the bicycle a "national key trademark brand under protection", enshrining it similarly to national treasures.»
21:37:08 <Bike> testicle pain is no good
21:37:55 <kmc> glad you're recovering, do you know what caused it?
21:38:24 * kmc looks accusingly at Bike (the joke is that bike seats can hurt one's testicles)
21:38:53 <kmc> but also they can cause the entire crotchular area to go numb in a way that is alarming but short-lasting
21:39:07 <pikhq> The medical guesses are either epididymitis (infection of the testes) or torsion of the testicular appendix (which hurts like torsion of the testicles, but is benign otherwise, because the testicular appendix is a vestigial structure)
21:39:23 <kmc> TIL there's a testicular appendix
21:39:37 <fizzie> Appendix T: Testicles.
21:39:46 <pikhq> And can't reasonably be anything else, because both ultrasound and CT scan say I'm in perfect health.
21:39:46 <kmc> Thesticles.
21:40:08 <HackEgo> Thanks, testicles. Thesticles.
21:41:42 <Bike> hm, i think i'm going to have to call it the " hydatid of Morgagni" because that sounds like some kind of frog
21:42:09 <pikhq> Needless to say, this has been a shitty few days.
21:49:39 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:52:29 <oerjan> @tell madbr You want to look at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz_function and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine hth
21:54:05 <oerjan> @tell madbr Also, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran
22:01:28 <kmc> fractran is great
22:01:38 <kmc> what query prompted these?
22:02:21 <Bike> madbr was just asking about collatz
22:02:52 <kmc> is the relevance of fractran that it illustrates that generalizations of collatz are turing complete?
22:03:13 <kmc> hm it's not the most direct generalization
22:03:17 <kmc> I think some more direct ones are also TC
22:03:27 <kmc> in general things tend to be TC
22:03:45 <Bike> conway wrote a paper about it but i haven't found a good version
22:13:49 <oerjan> kmc: collatz functions are the direct generalization hth
22:14:17 <oerjan> also madbr was asking about things closer to fractran itself (and the similar 1-cell minsky machine)
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22:15:21 <oerjan> these are all very similar in how you make them tc, but fractran is uniquely simple
22:16:35 <oerjan> collatz functions and 1-cell minsky machines basically add extra complications that you don't need.
22:19:00 <kmc> oerjan: oh ok
22:19:21 <oerjan> in some way collatz functions simplify fractran by removing the order of rules applied. but on the other hand they add the complication of choosing on exact modulus rather than just zero/non-zero.
22:20:15 <oerjan> i discovered collatz functions when trying to find out how to prove 3-cell bf TC, for which they are a perfect fit (with fractran i couldn't get the actual halting to work :P)
22:28:43 <elliott> oerjan: "I once left my votes on Steve and Geoff's answering machine" I hope there is a really good story behind this
22:30:04 <oerjan> elliott: i had been chosen to be that week's Silly Person or whatever it was called. i took it quite seriously. also Steve had somehow just before posted his phone number to the list.
22:31:05 <oerjan> the other main result was Insane Proposals, which i see still has a tiny vestige in the ruleset.
22:31:32 <oerjan> <tswett> How about rational numbers? <-- rational numbers have the nice property that you can fit any countable order in them.
22:31:51 <oerjan> @tell tswett <tswett> How about rational numbers? <-- rational numbers have the nice property that you can fit any countable order in them.
22:33:30 <oerjan> @tell tswett And of course that you can always fit another between/beside a finite number, which is how you prove the countable order result. Which means you don't need surreal numbers if you have only finite/countable number of fixities. Of course _any_ total order regardless of cardinality fits in the surreals.
22:34:42 <Bike> oh, speaking of surreals. What's ω!
22:35:38 <oerjan> well it's represented by the game {1,2,... | } where the naturals are listed on the left.
22:35:52 <oerjan> basically any ordinal fits into the surreals in that form
22:35:53 <Bike> no, i mean, the factorial.
22:36:09 <oerjan> oh. i don't remember how that works.
22:36:21 <oerjan> (i probably never learned it)
22:37:35 <oerjan> i've vaguely heard you can do some calculus/series stuff but i have a hard enough time remembering multiplication.
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23:10:52 <zzo38> If I have three states, each character belonging to one of three character sets, and I have a transition matrix giving the cost of emitting a character from a given character set if you begin at a given state and end at a given state, do you know the algorithm to make the less cost?
23:12:22 <oerjan> you mean you can always emit a character and get to any state you want, but the cost varies?
23:12:58 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
23:13:37 <zzo38> That is precisely what I mean.
23:14:41 <zzo38> ottianna: You have to learn reading English if you want to read it.
23:15:04 <zzo38> oerjan: Do you have any idea about how such a thing would be done?
23:15:05 <ottianna> ottianna: You have to learn reading English if you want to read it.
23:15:40 <zzo38> ottianna: (Of course if you don't know reading English then this message also isn't understandable.)
23:15:40 <oerjan> zzo38: given a string and a starting state, you can easily calculate this recursively from the information for substrings, i think.
23:16:00 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes but is there a more efficient algorithm?
23:16:39 <oerjan> zzo38: i think that's pretty efficient actually.
23:17:24 <zzo38> OK, do you have an example?
23:17:26 <oerjan> given that there is no reason why it should not vary enormously between different strings...
23:17:45 <oerjan> let's say you want to output abcd
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23:19:27 <oerjan> starting in state s and ending in state t. then recursively, you calculate the cost of getting from s to u outputting abc, and from u to t outputting d, for each u. then you take the minimum of the sums over u's.
23:20:19 <zzo38> The entire string does not matter what state it ends in.
23:20:20 <oerjan> note there is no exponential blowup, you just need to calculate N results for each initial substring, where N is the number of states.
23:20:55 <oerjan> zzo38: right, but you need a subroutine that calculates for given start and end, anyway.
23:21:34 <zzo38> Yes, OK, I can understand that much.
23:22:09 <oerjan> i suppose you can special case the last character added for the original problem if you want.
23:23:34 <oerjan> also it doesn't have to be recursive, it's easy to change it to iteration.
23:23:44 <zzo38> In order to calculate it for abc then I need to calculate it for ab...
23:24:04 <oerjan> yes, but you can do a loop to do it for a, ab, abc in order.
23:24:27 <zzo38> Yes, I thought of it something like that
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23:26:50 <zzo38> The starting state is known, so I can calculate the score for a, and then...
23:27:16 <zzo38> To do calculate ab from that...
23:27:35 <kmc> shachaf: have you read The Reasoned Schemer?
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23:31:03 <zzo38> If I am understand, then you calculate the cost s to u outputting a, and from u to t outputting b, and now you have the cost of ab for each t, I suppose.
23:31:59 <zzo38> But then you need to keep track of what set of states you have decided.
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23:35:00 <Fiora> Bike: http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/post/56556056152/quasistars-a-real-life-black-hole-sun I tried to write up a thing
23:35:38 <pikhq> *Jesus* I'm high right now
23:36:05 <shachaf> kmc: A long time ago. I have the feeling in retrospect that I didn't absorb nearly much of it as I might nowadays.
23:36:24 <shachaf> I think I have a copy! Maybe I should read it again.
23:36:29 <kmc> pikhq: painkillers?
23:36:50 <kmc> enjoy it, I guess?
23:36:53 <kmc> don't get hooked
23:36:57 <kmc> how effective are they?
23:37:02 <kmc> Fiora: nice
23:37:04 * pikhq doesn't actually *enjoy* it.
23:37:31 <pikhq> I'm honestly not a fan of the sensation.
23:37:33 <Bike> "They reside at the core of nearly every galaxy, even in quasars less than a billion years after the Big Bang itself." might wanna throw "formed" in there
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23:38:31 <shachaf> i got some kind of drugz pillz when i had my wisdom teeth removed a few years ago
23:38:36 <Fiora> I wanted to imply like, um, "quasars photographed..."
23:38:40 <shachaf> i never used them (i think i still have them "not sure")
23:38:45 <Fiora> like we don't necessarily know when they /formed/ but we photographed them at a point in time?
23:38:49 <Fiora> I'm not sure what the right way to say that is
23:38:58 <Bike> "dating from"?
23:39:27 <Bike> i think anyone reading this is probably already familiar with far away things being from a while ago
23:39:41 <kmc> Fiora: did you study astrophysics in school?
23:40:15 <Bike> ok this is really cool and also metal as fuck.
23:40:26 <Fiora> Bike: see! black hole sun
23:40:28 * Bike put soundgarden on, to go with it. very appropriate
23:40:44 <Bike> that definitely makes sense
23:40:44 <Fiora> kmc: my dad was really into it and gave me a lot of books to read when I was little, and I devoured them for a little while
23:40:52 <Fiora> but in school I was kind of bad at physics and ended up doing CS
23:41:02 <Fiora> I never actually took an astronomy course
23:41:12 <shachaf> maybe it was because you ate all that paper when you were little
23:41:15 <shachaf> that can't be good for you
23:41:21 <Fiora> though if you like gave me a telescope I think I would quietly geek out for a few epochs
23:42:37 <tswett> oerjan: I don't remember the context in which we were talking about rational numbers.
23:42:50 <kmc> Fiora: cool
23:43:16 <oerjan> wtf did xkcd time end or not
23:43:22 <kmc> I too was bad at physics in school... I was distracted by CS and people and stuff
23:43:30 <tswett> lambdabot: I'm talking to you
23:43:44 <Fiora> the math defeated me >_<
23:43:51 <tswett> xkcd Time didn't seem like it was nearing its end, last I checked.
23:43:55 <tswett> And I feel like that was about a week ago.
23:43:57 <Bike> kinematics is, like, hard, man.
23:44:13 <Bike> and then there's all that... "electromagnetism" stuff............
23:44:21 <kmc> I was pretty bad at the multivariate calculus in E&M
23:44:38 <kmc> I should have actually took some time to learn it for real rather than trying to wing it 6 hours before homework was due
23:44:52 <Bike> i'm not sure i understand multivarate calculus well enough to do EM, even though I passed the class in it and all :/
23:45:00 <Fiora> I think I got a C in E&M...
23:45:04 <kmc> "matter falling into a black hole releases orders of magnitude more energy than nuclear fusion" hm, why is that?
23:45:19 <Fiora> gravitational potential energy
23:45:39 <Fiora> the gravitational potential difference between empty space and "event horizon" is huuuge
23:45:58 <Fiora> and I think, like, the way accretion disks work helps release a lot of that energy as x-rays and stuff?
23:46:06 <Fiora> like, I remember reading the other day in a different thing
23:46:27 <Fiora> matter falling on a neutron star hits soooo hard that it actually spallates, like, the nuclei themselves may spallate
23:46:37 <oerjan> tswett: your language's fixities i think?
23:46:40 <Bike> what's... spallating
23:46:45 <Fiora> so like, iron nuclei explode into a bunch of helium and hydrogen nuclei
23:46:51 <Fiora> like, shatter into pieces
23:46:53 <shachaf> kmc: Should I read it again? Why did you bring it up?
23:47:09 <Fiora> the energy of fusion is apparently ~7MeV/nuclei, and hitting-the-neutron-star-surface is ~200MeV?
23:47:20 <Bike> that seems like a pretty good way to explain easily how fucking dense those things are
23:47:23 <Bike> because, like, wow
23:47:23 <lambdabot> *** "200" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:47:23 <lambdabot> adj 1: being ten more than one hundred ninety [syn: {two
23:47:25 <lambdabot> *** "7" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:47:27 <Bike> wrong channel dearie
23:47:29 <lambdabot> adj 1: being one more than six [syn: {seven}, {7}, {vii}]
23:47:31 <lambdabot> n 1: the cardinal number that is the sum of six and one [syn:
23:47:33 <lambdabot> {seven}, {7}, {VII}, {sevener}, {heptad}, {septet},
23:47:35 <lambdabot> Plugin `dict' failed with: <<timeout>>
23:47:36 <Bike> yo lambdabot shut up
23:47:47 <Fiora> it hits the surface at like, 30% the speed of light I think?
23:47:50 <kmc> shachaf: no particular reason; I just happened to be thinking about that book today
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23:48:14 <shachaf> does that mean there's a coöleg
23:48:14 <oerjan> tswett: there was a big "THE END" message about three updates ago. but there have been a couple updates since then, but not any action.
23:48:20 <Bike> could you like, somehow get into orbit and use the energy to gravitational slingshot at a speed of Pretty Fast
23:48:22 <shachaf> is coöleg related to clog (bye clog)
23:48:46 <oerjan> tswett: in fact i started reading it daily a few days ago because it was really picking up
23:49:02 <shachaf> is clog related to klogg (hi klogg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUgrkdzO6Ao )
23:49:05 <Fiora> Bike: well, like, gravitational slingshots are about stealing energy from either an object's velocity, rotation, or that thing where you do a burn at perihelion?
23:49:18 <Fiora> like, if you don't do any of that you'll end up with the same energy you started with
23:49:30 <Fiora> at least that's what I think it was?
23:49:46 <Bike> i have no idea.
23:49:52 <Fiora> Bike: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Gravitational_slingshot.svg
23:50:33 <Bike> so, a neutron star binary, "clearly"
23:50:41 * kmc should try to understand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberth_effect
23:50:42 <Fiora> another one is where you run your engines at perihelion, which gives you more speed because like
23:50:51 <Fiora> you're leaving the fuel at a point of lower gravitational potential energy
23:50:56 <Fiora> so by conservation of energy you have to have gained more speed
23:51:09 <Fiora> oh. that's the obert effect
23:51:42 <Fiora> I think it's because Energy = Force * Distance, so if you exert the same force over a longer distance ('cause you're going faster) you get more energy
23:56:55 <Fiora> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ULAS_J1120%2B0641 it's one of those super old quasars
23:57:50 <Bike> "Although this may appear to be larger than the size of the observable universe," fuckin
23:57:53 <oerjan> it was a quasar before it was cool
23:58:48 <Fiora> Bike: it's just the whole "comoving distance" thing
23:59:15 <Fiora> like the light took 13 billion years to get here but since the distance got bigger in the meantime the "actual" distance "right now" is 28b?
00:00:16 <Bike> according to the article on comoving distance, the "actual" distance "right now" is the proper distance, not the comoving
00:00:23 <Fiora> ohhh. the 13 billion is "light travel distance"
00:00:25 <oerjan> <tswett> Maybe instead of writing a Hylisk-to-C compiler in Hylisk, I should write it in a language that already exists. <-- i wonder how many people have written the first compiler for X in X, and then compiled it by hand to get the first actual implementation
00:00:38 <shachaf> kmc: i hope geofft isn't talking about guests staying over..............
00:00:50 <Bike> probably just knuth and some older people
00:00:55 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I also want to wonder about such thing
00:00:59 <kmc> shachaf: ?
00:01:03 <zzo38> I have thought of it too
00:01:17 <shachaf> (that was another pointless pun??)
00:01:41 * Fiora tries to figure this out >_<
00:01:44 <kmc> ooh wikipedia links to wikisky.org
00:01:49 <kmc> not to be confused with wikiwhisky.org
00:02:05 <Bike> i've done the same thing in my head, at least
00:02:10 <Bike> for very simple compilers
00:02:31 <oerjan> this sky is smoky with a mild aftertaste
00:03:28 <Bike> the comoving distance of the farthest known object is 32 billion light years
00:03:30 <Bike> that's pretty far
00:04:04 <Fiora> Bike: "Comoving distance and proper distance are defined to be equal at the present time hence the ratio of proper distance to comoving distance now is 1."
00:04:19 <Fiora> so comoving distance is just proper distance scaled to "how big the universe is now", I think?
00:05:18 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UDFj-39546284 @_@
00:05:35 <Jafet> Buddhist physics "the universe is one"
00:06:03 <Bike> Fiora: right, though i don't really understand that so well
00:06:17 <Bike> wow, what a useless thing to say, bike
00:06:49 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Hubble_Extreme_Deep_Field_%28full_resolution%29.png
00:07:18 <Fiora> 23 day exposure time...
00:07:53 <kmc> nobody sneeze
00:08:04 <elliott> I like the deep field images because they look like a collage or a bad artist's impression or something
00:08:09 <elliott> because there's just so much stuff piled together
00:08:57 <Fiora> I like all the colors...
00:09:05 <kmc> colors are great
00:10:34 <oerjan> <tswett> I wonder if there's a way to set vim to treat the file as being an infinite plane. <-- are you familiar with :set virtualedit?
00:11:38 <Sgeo> Infinite with or without an edge?
00:11:52 <oerjan> it only works rightwards, i guess.
00:11:53 <Sgeo> Come to think of it, you could have three edges
00:13:22 <Fiora> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffraction_spikes oohhhhhh that's why there's always those spikes on stars in astronomical photos
00:13:35 <Fiora> "They are artifacts caused by light diffracting around the support vanes of the secondary mirror. Refracting telescopes and their photographic images do not have the same problem."
00:15:03 <elliott> I prefer to believe it's because stars are sparkly
00:15:15 <oerjan> <Ghoul_> and then it wins in line count on all the challenges. <-- iirc the benchmarks game compares _compressed_ source size, which i doubt befunge will do particularly well on
00:15:16 <Bike> yeah geez fiora, next you'll be saying stars don't actually twinkle.
00:15:31 <Fiora> I I just thought it was interesting :<
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00:15:35 <oerjan> @tell Ghoul_ <Ghoul_> and then it wins in line count on all the challenges. <-- iirc the benchmarks game compares _compressed_ source size, which i doubt befunge will do particularly well on
00:16:16 <Sgeo> So wait, it elides much boilerplate?
00:18:49 <Bike> i am filled with a sudden urge to read His Master's Voice again
00:18:54 <Bike> astronomy always makes me think of that.
00:21:40 <zzo38> Sorry I still don't quite understand how to make that encoding of less cost efficiently, for some reason, even though you explained it to me.
00:24:04 <zzo38> I thought I understood but somehow I don't.
00:25:15 <zzo38> Do you have a example of an existing program which includes such an algorithm?
00:25:33 <oerjan> no, i have just thought up the algorithm right now
00:26:35 <zzo38> Sometimes it can be easier to understand some things if it is written like a computer program, since that is more precise than ordinary words.
00:31:19 <Fiora> "Cygnus X-1 was discovered using X-ray instruments that were carried aloft by a sounding rocket launched from White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. As part of an ongoing effort to map these sources, a survey was conducted in 1964 using two Aerobee suborbital
00:31:23 <Fiora> rockets. The rockets carried Geiger counters to measure X-ray emission in wavelength range 1–15 Å across an 8.4° section of the sky. These instruments swept across the sky as the rockets rotated, producing a map of closely spaced scans."
00:31:45 <Fiora> x-ray astronomy started with /carefully aiming geiger counters on top of a sounding rocket/
00:34:50 <zzo38> oerjan: Maybe someone else knows a similar thing though?
00:37:01 <zzo38> (Many algorithms are try to explain like a pseudo code, which often works better than the explanation just by only English sentences. Sometimes it is even done both, and if it is a real code then it might be literate programming.)
00:37:59 <zzo38> oerjan: If you just made up now, do you know that it is correct? (If not, then maybe it isn't me that isn't understanding it.)
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00:39:28 <kmc> hi Sgeo, how's it going
00:39:41 <Sgeo> Solve my puzzles!
00:39:42 <kmc> i like that this is a thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_mirror_telescope
00:39:43 <zzo38> Do you have the pseudo code of it?
00:39:54 <zzo38> Sgeo: You have some puzzle?
00:39:56 <kmc> Sgeo: are they crypto puzzles?
00:40:10 <Sgeo> http://creaturescaves.com/index.php?view=1134
00:40:56 <shachaf> Sgeo: why does a mirror reflect things left-to-right but not up-to-down
00:41:37 <Sgeo> Because left and right are relative to orientation whereas up and down are not?
00:42:21 <zzo38> I have a different answer to that question; I have also seen some others too but mine is different to that too.
00:42:25 <Sgeo> Turn. Left and right have changed. Stand on your head. Up and down have not changed.
00:42:38 <Bike> "Isaac Newton noted that the free surface of a rotating liquid forms a circular paraboloid and can therefore be used as a telescope, but he could not actually build one because he had no way to stabilize the speed of rotation" newton you freak
00:42:39 <Sgeo> zzo38: I'm not fully sure if my answer is accurate
00:42:53 <shachaf> Sgeo: That sounds like a thing which has to do more with your definitions than with anything else.
00:43:12 <shachaf> Forget about gravity etc., and say that up is the direction your head is pointing. Or something.
00:43:30 <shachaf> You still have this issue. I have a shirt with some text on it, I step in front of a mirror, the text is flipped right/left.
00:43:54 <Fiora> "However, research is underway to develop telescopes that can be tilted." out of context this is actually hilarious XD
00:44:27 <kmc> how stable does it need to be? big flywheel is no good?
00:44:30 <Bike> some things are just beyond human knowledge
00:44:59 <Bike> how would you use a flywheel to keep liquid rotating around a nongravitational axis?
00:45:14 <kmc> i meant re: Newton
00:45:27 <Fiora> I guess newtn didn't really have motors
00:45:40 <Bike> i think it needs to be pretty darn stable to be better than mirrors
00:46:36 <oerjan> :t let states = [0..2]; addCharCost charCostMap costs ch = [ minimum [ costs !! s1 + charCostMap s1 s2 ch | s1 <- states ] | s2 <- states ] in addCharCost
00:46:36 <lambdabot> (Num t, Ord t) => (Int -> Int -> t1 -> t) -> [t] -> t1 -> [t]
00:47:24 <kmc> that is one of the proposals yeah
00:47:26 <Jafet> Well, if you had an electrically charged liquid you could make a spherical mirror
00:47:44 <Fiora> I wonder if you could do um... a ferrofluid mirror?
00:48:20 <Jafet> If you want mirrors shaped like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ferrofluid_Magnet_under_glass_edit.jpg
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00:48:32 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrofluid_mirror
00:48:39 <zzo38> The mirror also reflects forward/backward because each thing has the same distance to the mirror in the image (presumably), such as a paper placed at a right angle to the mirror. If you then stand backward, it is rotated to how it looks correctly, just as if you look through a paper to the words on the other side, or if you have in front of you correctly then the mirror of the other side is also the correct order!
00:48:51 <Fiora> they're apparently used in adaptive optics?
00:49:05 <zzo38> But if you put a mirror above you, then the "forward" is actually up/down, so it will be apparently "up/down" reversed instead. See?
00:49:10 <Bike> yay ferrofluids :D
00:49:28 <zzo38> This is what I think is the reason for the mirror reflect things left-to-right but not up-to-down. Do you think so, or not?
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00:51:39 <zzo38> Because if you look at the back of a paper and with enough light you can see the words on the other side through it, then it is also mirrored. Just like, if you look through something it is the other side, but you are looking at it through the other side through the axis of the mirror.
00:52:01 <Jafet> "Ferrofluid mirrors are commonly used" -- there exists one research group doing it
00:52:11 <kmc> i love ferrofluid
00:52:19 <kmc> and magnets and monoids and hugz
00:52:22 <^v> ferrofluid = fun
00:52:38 <oerjan> :t let states = [0..2]; addCharCost charCostMap costs ch = [ minimum [ costs !! s1 + charCostMap s1 s2 ch | s1 <- states ] | s2 <- states ]; stringCost charCostMap startState (c:cs) = foldl' (addCharCost charCostMap) [charCostMap startState s c | s <- states] cs in stringCost
00:52:39 <lambdabot> (Num t, Ord t) => (Int -> Int -> b -> t) -> Int -> [b] -> [t]
00:52:51 <kmc> :D *hugs back*
00:53:00 <kmc> it's awkward when you hug someone and they don't hug back...........
00:53:07 <^v> i remember lambdabot :D
00:53:11 <zzo38> oerjan: O, thank you.
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00:53:49 <Fiora> that's why it's good to hug huggy people!
00:53:51 <oerjan> zzo38: was a bit awkward to get it started because the costs from a state to another are not well defined for an empty string
00:54:03 <kmc> is that new?
00:54:08 * kmc hugs lambdabot back
00:54:54 <oerjan> zzo38: also that's probably not optimal haskell (e.g. !!) so consider it like a pseudocode
00:55:47 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, that's OK. My program is in C anyways; I just wanted a code because it might be understandable better than something that isn't. So, a code in Haskell is OK too.
00:58:06 <shachaf> "There was an old woman who swallowed a spider, / That wriggled and jiggled and tickled in cider"
00:58:14 <zzo38> So thank you for that I will use that.
00:58:46 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you mean to put some punctuation in that sentence? E.g. "So thank you for that. I will use that."
00:58:54 <shachaf> Otherwise it's kind of hard to to read.
00:59:44 <zzo38> shachaf: I suppose so.
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01:08:00 <oerjan> shachaf: as zzo38 mentions, a mirror actually reflects forward/backward. it's just that the human mind reanalyzes this as a rotation about a vertical line through the mirror (which is a physically plausible thing to do) followed by a left/right reflection (which is not physically plausible, but probably because of human body left/right symmetry still an intuitive operation.)
01:09:25 <shachaf> oerjan: imo that's true but incomplete
01:09:29 <oerjan> basically, a human image in the mirror looks _almost_ like it's just a human standing rotated around a mirror vertical "axis".
01:09:38 <kmc> the elevators in this building are covered in mirrors and have super unflattering light and the only way to avoid staring at yourself is to stare at the advertising screen
01:09:43 <kmc> well played elevator people
01:10:20 <shachaf> oerjan: that puzzle is this: i'm wearing a shirt with some text on it. i stand in front of the mirror. the picture i see in the mirror is definitely reflected left/right
01:10:37 <shachaf> i.e. if i refect it along that axis i'll be able to read it
01:10:51 <shachaf> kmc: imo defeat them with narcissism
01:11:39 <oerjan> shachaf: well but you cannot read your shirt _without_ a mirror, right? without a mirror you would want to take it off to read it easily, essentially performing the rotation.
01:12:40 <shachaf> oerjan: ok let's keep my shirt on for this exercise
01:12:56 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bummer_and_Lazarus famous dogs of san francisco
01:13:09 <shachaf> oerjan: let's say we have a sign
01:13:28 <oerjan> that is, the picture you see is definitely reflected left/right corresponding to what an actual person in front of you would look like - but an actual person in front of you looks approximately like you rotated around the vertical axis between you (but unreflected)
01:13:47 <shachaf> it says IO. i put it up to the mirror and i read OI.
01:13:50 <kmc> As a team they turned out to be exceptional, once finishing off 85 rats in 20 minutes
01:14:38 <^v> oerjan, you dont say?
01:14:40 <Bike> the way i've heard it explained is that it's not really a left right rotation,a s you can tell from making "L"s with your fingers
01:14:53 <shachaf> oerjan: actually i think you have m. or l. the same answer in mind as i do
01:14:58 <shachaf> but are expressing it differently?? maybe
01:15:05 <oerjan> ^v: i do. now i just have to get shachaf to understand it :P
01:15:50 <shachaf> ok i guess oerjan is saying approximately the truth
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01:17:42 <shachaf> Bike: i like to thin of a cut out sign, rather than a sign printed on paper or something
01:17:48 <shachaf> which is p. much the same thing
01:19:08 <oerjan> oh wtf there is too much log to read today.
01:19:22 <shachaf> what if there was an olist update
01:19:47 <oerjan> then it would have to have been hid inside your quoerjans, i assume
01:20:01 <zzo38> Actually I think the reason for the left/right reflection is simply because it follows the rotation about a vertical line; symmetry of your body doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it (although I suppose it helps with the "illusion").
01:20:02 <oerjan> since that was all i could find searching for my nick.
01:20:18 <HackEgo> 1036) <oerjan> i vaguely thought sigbovik was all jokes? <Bike> oerjan: jokes written by CS people, so none of it's funny, just sad
01:20:31 <shachaf> that's not even a good quote
01:20:39 <shachaf> also it's more of a quike than a quoerjan
01:20:44 <oerjan> indeed, you should stop doing `quoerjans hth
01:20:56 <HackEgo> 531) <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed. \ 605) <shachaf> VMS Mosaic? <shachaf> I hope that's not Mosaic ported to VMS. <shachaf> Hmm. It's Mosaic ported to VMS. \ 615) * Sgeo|web wants to see elliott be wrong about
01:20:59 <kmc> oerjan: Bike: harsh
01:21:05 <kmc> I think SIGBOVIK is pretty funny
01:21:19 <oerjan> kmc: hey i wasn't the one saying it wasn't funny
01:22:44 <shachaf> kmc: how long do you have to not write any rust before you can say you're """"""""rusty"
01:23:48 <kmc> should I write a JIT for FRACTRAN
01:24:37 <shachaf> it's like a JIT but for FRACTRAN
01:24:45 <Jafet> Why not write an EARLY instead
01:25:35 <elliott> CLC-INTERCAL uses a just-too-late compiler
01:25:35 <kmc> a day late and dollar short compiler
01:25:38 <elliott> or some variation on that name
01:26:00 <elliott> it's this incomprehensible mix of perl and bootstrapped compiler involving weird bytecode and stuff
01:26:40 <shachaf> kmc: imo you should write a jit that jumps to unmapped pages and then compiles code into them in the page fault handler
01:28:33 <shachaf> CADD: How did you come across this channel?
01:29:01 <CADD> shachaf: magic :)
01:29:57 <kmc> more magic
01:30:03 <CADD> Of my interest in esolangs.
01:30:21 <CADD> and search engines
01:31:02 <zzo38> Even if you use a camera which is capable to picture a mirror then according to the orientation of the camera it will be a picture of the camera with the X coordinate reversed, regardless how the camera is pointing.
01:32:04 <zzo38> The picture can then be easily reversed again to the correct orientation using the computer, so you will have the proper picture of the camera.
01:40:45 <tswett> My answer to the question of why mirrors flip things left-to-right is that they don't.
01:41:07 <shachaf> tswett: that answer is correct but incomplete
01:41:22 <tswett> If you're wearing a T-shirt, how come the beginning of the text appears to be on your right in the mirror, and the end of the text appears to be on your left? Because the beginning of the text really is on your right, and likewise.
01:43:56 <zzo38> I have explained all of these thing too.
01:44:11 <tswett> So currently I'm trying to implement Hylisk in too many languages at once.
01:44:18 <tswett> Haskell, Idris, and Hylisk.
01:44:42 <tswett> I think I'll switch to doing it in Idris only.
01:46:48 <zzo38> CADD: Which esolangs interested you, or in general, or ?
01:48:29 <CADD> zzo38: oh man, there are so many
01:49:54 <zzo38> CADD: That is correct. But do you know what things resulted in your interested in esolangs?
01:50:22 <CADD> zzo38: it is a general interest, seeing how far you can push the idea of what it means to be a language.
01:50:58 <CADD> well there are all the standard esolangs like BF and unlambda, thats what originally got me interested
01:51:23 <CADD> after that it was really all over the place, i think the esolang wiki is a great resource
01:52:29 <zzo38> I also like INTERCAL.
01:52:59 <zzo38> Duff also write a article about prehistory of esoteric programming.
01:53:20 <CADD> im actually on the wiki right now, let me see if i can find some of my favorites..
01:53:34 <CADD> ive heard a tiny bit about intercal
01:53:39 <CADD> what is it about?
01:56:02 <CADD> oh man, im reading the wiki page
01:56:07 <CADD> it looks pretty bad
01:56:15 <Fiora> it's a very polite language! you have to say please.
01:56:22 <Fiora> I think it also had COME FROM
01:56:59 <CADD> wow, apparently google even has a style guide for it?
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02:00:41 <Bike> it's an old joke.
02:04:02 <HackEgo> 2013-07-26 16:33:46: <ion> Oh, wasn’t #esoteric-nonblah for that?
02:05:18 <shachaf> Useless. It should tell you *how long ago*.
02:09:44 <Sgeo> We forgot to welcome CADD
02:09:53 <HackEgo> CADD: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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02:15:26 <HackEgo> 2013-07-27 02:10:13: <shachaf> Sgeo: I didn't.
02:45:15 <zzo38> What is the minimum number of clues that has to be selected in Jeopardy! before your score is unrecoverably non-positive?
02:47:02 <zzo38> (Assuming only one player (you) ever does anything, you give incorrect responses for the first N clues, you give correct responses for the rest of the clues, and you always bet the maximum allowed for daily doubles)
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03:02:13 <shachaf> 20:01 <dmwit> No, that doesn't look right. Fix it, please.
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03:39:04 <zzo38> oerjan: It is the optimal list of state transitions I want to calculate, not the cost, though.
03:44:54 <oerjan> zzo38: very well then, keep the list of transitions with the minimum cost to get there...
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03:48:59 <oerjan> or, for each step n, as you calculate the cost for each state, include the previous state in the optimal path to it.
04:01:01 <^v> its now my birthday
04:02:23 <oerjan> `run echo HAPPY BIRTHDAY ^v | colorize
04:02:24 <HackEgo> bash: colorize: command not found
04:02:34 <oerjan> what did they rename it again
04:02:52 <HackEgo> bin/rainbow \ bin/rainwords
04:03:03 <oerjan> `run echo HAPPY BIRTHDAY ^v | rainbow
04:06:17 <kmc> that's a sad rainbow
04:06:27 <kmc> but irregardless, happy birthday ^V!
04:19:30 <Fiora> I think I'm losing track of all the acronyms
04:20:51 <Bike> i've never had track
04:20:56 <Bike> just been imitating them markov-style
04:23:56 <kmc> i'm drinking ``ChocoVine''
04:24:04 <kmc> it's a mixture of red wine and chocolate syrup
04:24:26 <Bike> "I bought something called Choco-rite Protein and you know that's good because the name sounds like a parody of food"
04:24:31 <kmc> it's........... better than you would expect
04:24:41 <shachaf> how do you know what i'd expect
04:24:48 <kmc> DOGTV - Welcome to DOGTV The First Television Channel for dogs
04:24:58 <shachaf> i've never even had wine (should i have wine (i like grapes and stuff is that like wine))
04:25:00 <Bike> because of the river hu
04:25:09 <Bike> except i forget the name of the river and also how that actually goes.
04:25:18 <mnoqy> have you ever had fruit thats gone fermented
04:25:39 <mnoqy> grapes, pomegranate,
04:25:46 <shachaf> i've had grapes and pomegranates
04:25:47 <Bike> darn, hao, not hu.
04:25:52 <shachaf> i don't think they were fermented
04:26:01 <kmc> you lived in israel for n years and you never had wine?
04:26:05 <Jafet> That apple you forgot to put in the fridge for a month
04:26:13 <kmc> anyway you should try wine sometime, it's p. good
04:26:26 <shachaf> i did turn wine down at various occasions including the celebratory kind
04:26:29 <kmc> tomorrow we could buy a bottle of wine and split it, it's a friendly thing to do
04:26:33 <kmc> cathy doesn't like wine :/
04:26:45 <shachaf> is that a euphemism for breaking the glass
04:26:51 <shachaf> is splitting the bottle like splitting the atom
04:27:05 <Bike> you just break the glass and then try to kill each other with the shards.
04:27:13 <Jafet> shachaf is splitting hairs.
04:27:22 <kmc> Bike: never bring a gun to a wine fight
04:27:56 <shachaf> Jafet didn't acknowledge my pun :'(
04:28:02 <shachaf> 20:06 * dmwit looks forward to the blog post: "My bug cost my company $300 of prototyping plastic"
04:28:05 <shachaf> 20:06 <Jafet> Is that, like, a few pounds of plastic
04:28:08 <shachaf> 20:07 <cads> about ten kilograms
04:28:10 <shachaf> 20:07 <shachaf> Jafet: It's 195.02 pounds of plastic at the current exchange rate.
04:28:13 <shachaf> is that because it was bad
04:29:24 <Jafet> I'm afraid it was such a good pun that I didn't notice it
04:29:51 <shachaf> you're such a good pun that i didn't notice you :'(
04:30:07 <kmc> GBP ain't what it used to be
04:30:21 <shachaf> USD ain't what it used to be, neither
04:30:42 <Bike> oh! mass or money
04:31:53 <kmc> your GP or your HP!
04:33:36 <Jafet> Now CNY, that's how you fly
04:34:08 <Jafet> Some keep XAU, that's fine too
04:44:33 <Sgeo> Tremulous vs Natural Selection 2
04:44:38 <Sgeo> I feel kind of torn
04:45:06 <Sgeo> NS2 has a commander on each team, reminds me a bit of Allegiance
04:45:43 <zzo38> oerjan: Thank you it works!
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04:52:01 * oerjan swats Jafet for comparing PHP with NOK -----###
04:52:54 <^v> i will never use php again
04:53:01 <^v> lua webservers > all
04:53:42 <CADD> ^v: lolol haskell webservers > lua webservers > all
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04:53:58 <zzo38> ^v: The HTTP service included in Synchronet uses JavaScript for server-side programs (Synchronet also uses JavaScript for BBS door programs, and for other things)
04:54:52 <zzo38> But I suppose with the correct software, you can make a server which is using Lua scripting, Forth, C, C++, or whatever.
04:54:55 <^v> asshell isnt as good as lua
04:55:17 <CADD> is that the best joke you could come up with? :P
04:56:15 <zzo38> (Synchronet can also use DOS programs and native programs for BBS door programs, but I think server-side scripting of webpages in Synchronet is JavaScript only.)
04:56:32 <CADD> haskell blows lua out of the water.
04:56:39 <^v> ive made with lua: irc bot, irc server, http server, minecraft rcon, pretty much everything possible in computercraft, making a unnecicarily powerful love2d script to controll random things in MC
04:56:47 <CADD> both in language merits and community size.. ;)
04:56:57 <oerjan> hey now no troll flame wars
04:57:07 <zzo38> Sure you can make many things, with many programming languages.
04:57:09 <Jafet> My community is bigger than yours
04:57:35 <zzo38> Haskell and Lua are for different ways so they are good for different purpose; Lua may be good for imperative and Haskell for functional, for example.
04:57:42 <CADD> true facts: http://sogrady-media.redmonk.com/sogrady/files/2013/02/lang-rank-Q113-big.png
04:57:58 <CADD> but ok, i wont stir anything up
04:58:35 <CADD> i really love that chart, its probably one of my favorite visualizations.
04:59:08 <Bike> i wonder what would cause a language to deviate from the line a lot.
04:59:22 <CADD> well i have my own theories
04:59:35 <CADD> so the bottom half have more code than people talking about them
04:59:44 <CADD> and the top has more people talking than coding
04:59:56 <CADD> so you have the far outliers like vimL
05:00:05 <CADD> which are "utility" langs
05:00:15 <CADD> same with elisp
05:00:52 <zzo38> Common Lisp is very down too though.
05:00:58 <CADD> yes, i pulled that one right out of my ass. :) but i think it is an apt description.
05:01:12 <CADD> right, the further down you go the less that correlation holds
05:01:15 <Jafet> Bike: the fact that the two rankings don't match linearly
05:01:35 <CADD> that is treu too
05:02:21 <zzo38> Also, this scale is only for Stack Overflow and GitHub. For example, on OpenCores there is probably a lot more Verilog and VHDL programs than C programs and so on.
05:03:06 <CADD> well, yeah thats opencores for you. you would expect that
05:03:25 <zzo38> Yes, it is expected.
05:03:33 <CADD> you can say haskell is underrepresented because of the heavy use of hackage and cabal
05:03:45 <zzo38> Yes, things like that too.
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05:04:03 <CADD> but i think the neatest thing about the graph is the 3 clusters
05:04:30 <CADD> to make an analogy to the situaion in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd world countries, the same goes for languages
05:04:33 <zzo38> Yes, I guess probably it is.
05:04:55 <CADD> this graph just really shows it very well
05:05:11 <Jafet> I'm not sure if I want to live in a first-world language.
05:05:21 <CADD> lol, yeah they are all boring
05:07:32 <zzo38> There are some other programming languages I sometimes use and didn't see in there, such as Csound and SQL, and it says "Assembly" but doesn't really mean for what computers it is an assembly language of.
05:08:40 <CADD> right, since its based on githubs language categorization
05:08:46 <zzo38> There are no dots next to the words.
05:09:55 <zzo38> CADD: How good is GitHub's language categorization?
05:09:59 <CADD> shachaf: do you think that would that be vertical or horizontal categorization?
05:10:15 <CADD> zzo38: you can see for yourself.
05:10:48 <CADD> lol i dont mean that in a snarky way, just a sec. im pulling up a page
05:10:50 <zzo38> Also, there is Visual Basic Classic and Visual Basic .NET; they didn't mention that either.
05:11:05 <zzo38> CADD: I didn't expect you to mean that in a snarky way.
05:11:14 <zzo38> (It just says "Visual Basic".)
05:11:40 <CADD> hmm, i remember there being a page with all the languages github supports..
05:11:55 <CADD> https://github.com/languages
05:11:57 <zzo38> But it doesn't suppport SQL?
05:12:15 <CADD> i dont think so
05:12:56 <Jafet> You can't put SQL on that chart, because it would overlap with the PHP label.
05:13:13 <CADD> shachaf: we were talking about githubs "language categorization".
05:13:44 <zzo38> Jafet: Overlap how much? I don't really expect it to.
05:14:04 <zzo38> (especially since there is two axis.)
05:16:11 <zzo38> Jafet: Do you even have the data? Would the number of programs and number of discussions both match that of PHP?
05:23:59 <zzo38> OK, then, because I didn't believe it anyways.
05:26:53 <Jafet> The github ranking is based on what language a github program thinks a subset of your repository is written in
05:28:43 <zzo38> That question I asked of oerjan, it is about encoding text in Z-machine format. Infocom never implemented this algorithm (and instead used only temporary shifts), leading Graham Nelson to believe that there are no permanent shifts in version 3. But I know how the Z-machine really works and implemented it properly.
05:29:29 <zzo38> Jafet: Still, they have a lot of programming langauges and yet they still forgot SQL?
05:33:23 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you think of hugs?
05:34:03 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know?
05:35:27 <shachaf> kmc: so do you have any tomorrowplanz
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05:35:48 <shachaf> otherwise i'll p. show up in sf "sometime"
05:35:48 <kmc> not really
05:35:52 <kmc> yes that's fine
05:36:06 <shachaf> i have some computerthings to do sometime during the day but i d. think it matters exactly when
05:37:29 <shachaf> so i could presumably show up in sf and stare at a laptop screen for a bit (seems to be a popular thing to do around where you live) and see
05:44:59 <fizzie> Show up in science-fiction.
05:45:38 <kmc> yeah it's a popular activity
05:45:45 <kmc> you can say that you're ``co-working''
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05:50:45 <shachaf> is that the dual of working
06:02:48 <Jafet> When founding a startup, remember the most important thing: colocation, colocation, colocation
06:19:50 <shachaf> kmc: remember when were all, like, "you probably all think i'm a huge stoner but really i only [inhale the fumes of a burning cannabis plant] once every few months"
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06:20:26 <kmc> that might say something about me
06:20:38 <shachaf> it was a while ago. in #-blah, i think
06:20:46 <shachaf> i might not be remebering the exact quote
06:21:04 <shachaf> maybe it was "a few times this year" or something
06:21:10 <kmc> I prefer to inhale the fumes extracted by passing hot air over a cannabis plant which is not actually burning
06:21:46 <kmc> I didn't smoke weed very often from 2008 to last month
06:21:50 <kmc> mostly on some visits to Caltech and SF
06:22:24 <kmc> most days?
06:23:25 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEzhxP-pdos high
06:28:08 <shachaf> kmc: how high are you right now on a scale of dead sea to mt everest
06:28:22 <shachaf> «Euophrys omnisuperstes, a minute black jumping spider, has been found at elevations as high as 6,700 metres (22,000 ft), possibly making it the highest confirmed non-microscopic permanent resident on Earth.»
06:29:38 <Bike> «In 2008 a colony of bumble bees were discovered on Mount Everest at more than 5,600 metres above sea level,»
06:29:59 <kmc> shachaf: I drank some ChocoVine, that's all
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06:37:23 <Fiora> Bike: http://arxiv.org/abs/1307.1409 okay these are awesome and amazing wow
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06:37:54 <Fiora> so like, the equation of state for neutron stars basically lets them be a little bit more massive without collapsing, as long as they're rotating
06:38:00 <Fiora> but magnetic braking will cause them to slow down
06:38:32 <Fiora> so neutron stars in that mass range will one day slow down just enough that an event horizon forms at their core...
06:38:37 <Fiora> and 0.15 milliseconds later, disappear
06:41:00 <Fiora> but magnetic field lines can't cross the event horizon
06:41:08 <Fiora> so suddenly the neutron star magnetic field is caught without, um, a neutron star
06:41:34 <Fiora> so while the neutron star will disappear silently, you have like, a field of a billion or more tesla snapping
06:41:59 <Fiora> which produces this super short but rather loud radio burst
06:43:17 <Bike> does it sound like a numbers station
06:43:23 <kmc> fucking universe
06:43:28 <Fiora> I think it sounds like a boop with a quick ringdown afterwards?
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06:43:48 <Bike> boop *volume larger than planet earth disappears*
06:44:03 <Fiora> but the neutron star is only like, 15km in radius!
06:44:06 <Fiora> that's not that big.
06:48:54 <Bike> So only everybody I've interacted with in the last several months.
06:49:08 <Bike> I guess that's ok then
06:49:09 <shachaf> Bike: imo move to california
06:51:07 * kmc -> bike -> pointless
07:04:48 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapiro_delay oh wow. they can use this to measure the mass of neutron stars
07:08:27 <Fiora> http://arxiv.org/abs/1010.5788 eeee oh gosh now I want to spend all night reading these
07:09:26 <Bike> i'm spending the night reading scp foundation articles apparently
07:09:34 <Bike> i think you may have made the superior decision
07:10:22 <elliott> does supramassive mean the same as supermassive or really small or what? latin prefixes are hard
07:10:39 <Bike> "not very massive, honestly"
07:10:53 <Fiora> it means supermassive, i.e. above the limit?
07:12:31 <elliott> okay, I just sort of vaguely remembered that supra was the opposite of super but I guess I misremembered
07:12:42 <Bike> i thought the same thing
07:12:44 <Fiora> I just know what it meant in the article
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07:13:19 <elliott> well if they're not opposites then that's good. because "supermassive" and "supramassive" meaning the opposite thing despite being spelled and pronounced really similarly would just be ridiciulous.
07:13:48 <Bike> @wn supramassive
07:14:51 <Bike> oh, it's "above"
07:22:03 <kmc> glaciers melting in the dead of night
07:22:20 <kmc> my previous ACTION is a lie; I have been detoured to lexande's apartment
07:23:13 <kmc> it's called "convox"
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08:29:09 <Taneb> shachaf, am I allowed to just start reading OotS from where it is now without bothering to read the archives?
08:29:47 <shachaf> Taneb: Probably not the best way to do it.
08:29:51 <shachaf> I mean, you're allowed to.
08:30:00 <Taneb> Because I tried to read it before and couldn't get into it
08:30:15 <shachaf> The beginning is very different.
08:30:22 <shachaf> It started out as D&D jokes.
08:31:07 <shachaf> Maybe the first 50-100 strips or something?
08:32:12 <shachaf> I might have some completionist tendencies, though, so probably adjust what I say to account for that.
08:38:40 <kmc> http://boingboing.net/2013/07/26/uk-censorwall-will-also-block.html UK censorware will block "esoteric material"
08:43:15 <Taneb> That seems ridiculously broad
08:43:18 <Lymia> "web blocking circumvention tools'
08:43:22 <Lymia> You mean like ssh?
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08:53:20 <shachaf> yay, i have a new ""profile picture""
08:59:19 <Gracenotes> hm. funny, though. the usual story is that, once a blocking infrastructure is in place for naughty (or even illegal) things, it's just a hop, skip, and a jump to general censorship.
09:09:03 <Taneb> "suicide related websites" like suicide support charities?
09:10:03 <shachaf> Hmm, where should I change my profile picture to make it visible?
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09:59:43 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I'm looking at the TURT test output, is it supposed to set the background to #000001??
10:02:31 <Vorpal> Deewiant, because that is what I'm seeing in the N call
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10:04:52 <Vorpal> Deewiant, makes it very hard to check that it works correctly, especially if you don't output vector graphics like I do (and thus can just open it up in inkscape and remove the background)
10:04:59 <Vorpal> Deewiant, since the pen colour is the same!
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10:14:01 <ion> hi shachaf. hachaf.
10:14:18 <ion> I’ll be back in a bit.
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10:48:01 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Yeah it seems to call everything with (the appropriate number of) 1s on the stack to check that they pop the right amount of values
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10:51:38 <Vorpal> Deewiant, might be worth considering changing that, it would be horrible to check the current output if you use bitmap graphics
10:52:10 <Vorpal> Deewiant, might even help ensure someone doesn't mix up RGB if you use some other colour than #001
10:52:34 <Deewiant> Yeah, it's kinda crap right now
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11:36:46 <Vorpal> Played around a bit with LTO. No measurable speed difference that I can see in my case. About 2-10% smaller executable for an LTO build compared to a non-LTO build with otherwise the same flags
11:37:02 <Vorpal> About 2% with -O3 and about 10% with -Os
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11:45:14 <Jafet> Clearly your enterprise library interfaces were not nested deeply enough
11:46:30 <Vorpal> Jafet, quite so, I only use libc, librt, libncurses. All of them linked dynamically
11:47:43 <Vorpal> Jafet, also the executable is still below 200 K in all cases.
11:48:13 <Vorpal> Unless I enable debug info of course
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12:02:19 <Taneb> Isn't 200 K like -73 degrees celsius
12:02:34 <Vorpal> Taneb, yeah my software is really cool
12:08:02 <Taneb> In other news, I think now may be a good time to get dressed
12:08:10 <Taneb> Before I have to use any of Vorpal's software
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12:12:54 <Deewiant> mushspace pretty much needs LTO because it doesn't use macros for even the smallest things unless necessary
12:13:32 <Deewiant> So it has functions like add(int x, int y) { return (int)((unsigned)x + (unsigned)y); }
12:14:06 <Vorpal> Oh? What are your plans for it?
12:14:23 <Vorpal> I mean, what to use it for
12:14:30 <Deewiant> It's pretty much the one in CCBI2 translated to C and improved in lots of ways
12:15:00 <Deewiant> When it's done I'll write a new interpreter, probably also in C
12:15:52 <Deewiant> Anyway, I should see at some point just how much faster it'll be without LTO if I turn that kind of stuff into macros
12:16:17 <Vorpal> Deewiant, Also I found a somewhat serious bug by fuzz testing, I seem to not properly handle at least one case of malloc returning NULL.
12:16:28 <Vorpal> Not sure where yet, it is somewhat tricky to debug
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12:21:46 <Vorpal> Deewiant, with ulimit + fuzz test script that invokes valgrind as one step
12:22:16 <Vorpal> I have a define that enables an alarm()-call in main() to handle terminating the program after 3 seconds.
12:22:39 <Deewiant> Oh, ulimit in linux makes malloc return null?
12:22:54 <Vorpal> Deewiant, yes, at least in some cases
12:23:18 <Deewiant> Do you use random ulimits or do you just have some known small value
12:24:16 <Vorpal> Deewiant, atm I just assign 128 MB to the various memory limits, since I was actually trying to test STRN rather than malloc, it just happened to hit some sort of massive stack it appears in the randomly generated program.
12:24:30 <Vorpal> I have used random values in ranges for it before though
12:24:54 <Vorpal> (Since there is a minimum that makes sense, if ld.so fails to load stuff due to memory limits, that is of no interest)
12:26:33 <Vorpal> Deewiant, Right, fixed that memory leak. Turned out to be a realloc call assigning without checking for NULL first, leading to a memory leak detected by valgrind
12:27:12 <Vorpal> Anyway, I haven't figured out a good way to not also apply the ulimits to valgrind as well, I guess I could add them into the cfunge main() though...
12:31:12 <fizzie> Can't you just have valgrind run a shell script that sets ulimits and exec's cfunge?
12:31:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, Does valgrind follow that hm
12:31:51 <Vorpal> I don't want stuff from the shell messing up
12:31:54 <fizzie> I'd think it follows exec's, given that it follows forks too.
12:32:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, so I won't get leak reports from the shell?
12:32:38 <fizzie> Apparently you need a --trace-children=yes for it to follow across exec.
12:33:11 <Jafet> Or you could make a program that calls setrlimit and runs cfunge.
12:33:13 <fizzie> There's also a --trace-children-skip which "can be useful for pruning uninteresting branches from a tree of processes being run on Valgrind".
12:33:44 <fizzie> I guess that doesn't work, though, since it wouldn't follow the children of the skipped shell.
12:33:50 <Vorpal> Jafet, or since I have an alarm() call inside an ifdef in it anyway I could just add the setrlimit call there
12:34:31 <Jafet> You just need a small perl script to prune the reports about the shell process
12:35:30 <Vorpal> I mean you can use a shell script to do it
12:36:03 <Jafet> Any shell script that parses text is, by construction, going to be a wrapper around another script
12:37:10 <Vorpal> Hm when I set the rlimit in main() it still seems to affect valgrind???
12:37:16 <Vorpal> That will need some investigation
12:40:00 <Jafet> If you set a limit on your executable's process, which is the valgrind process, it affects the valgrind process, which is your executable's process.
12:41:19 <Vorpal> Jafet, oh right, valgrind runs the instrumented process inside itself, doesn't it...
12:41:54 <Vorpal> I guess I will just put it at a sufficiently high number to not make a mess of the system if it runs out of control
12:42:36 <fizzie> For purely the malloc-returns-NULL testing, you can always opt for a wrapper malloc.
12:42:48 <Vorpal> Well yes, but that is somewhat more annoying
12:42:57 <Vorpal> Anyway I use mmap directly in a couple of places iirc
12:46:05 <Jafet> It's conceptually simple, valgrind/memcheck is just a virtual machine for malloc.
13:04:06 <fizzie> ...I was preparing for an automated testing system that'd use a fixed random seed and try to get fungot-babble to misbehave, and testing with nc -l 6667 about what sort of interaction I'd need to provide... when I got the bug to manifest, with a random seed of 0, on my first comment.
13:04:06 <fungot> fizzie: there is an html file
13:04:15 <fizzie> I should probably see if that's repeatable.
13:05:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh did you do that now?
13:06:19 <fizzie> It is indeed repeatable.
13:06:39 <Vorpal> Well then, should be somewhat easy to debug.
13:07:08 <fizzie> And if I skip one completely inconsequential line (a ^style without arguments) it no longer happens; probably because it changes the state of the input buffer.
13:07:25 <Vorpal> And I just got it to segfault somehow
13:07:39 <Vorpal> I have a NULL stackstack
13:07:47 <olsner> fungot: where's the html file?
13:07:47 <fungot> olsner: when we told him that ' fnord by the odd syntax i just invented
13:12:27 <Jafet> fnord fungot fnord fungot fnord
13:12:27 <fungot> Jafet: that would be of no use to anyone. and i also share some ideas with italian fascism but those generally also fall under the term marxism...
13:13:49 <Vorpal> Right, something goes wrong when I have >3300 threads, then I end up with a NULL stackstack on IP 3320 or so
13:18:33 <Jafet> Having three thousand (nptl) threads does tend to coincide with being wrong
13:18:42 <Vorpal> Jafet, these are user space threads
13:19:02 <Vorpal> Jafet, Having 3000 funge threads is pretty wrong too though
13:19:49 <Vorpal> Jafet, but it is a randomly generated program from fuzz testing, so these things shouldn't be surprising
13:19:59 <Vorpal> Besides I should be able to handle malloc returning NULL
13:20:23 <Jafet> Your funge program can malloc?
13:20:30 <Deewiant> No ATHR so no actual threads :-/
13:20:33 <Vorpal> Jafet, no my funge interpreter does
13:20:45 <Vorpal> Deewiant, there is some experimental support for it in efunge
13:21:10 <Deewiant> Don't you implement the malloc fingerprint
13:21:30 <Vorpal> I didn't know that existed. RCfunge one?
13:21:37 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure I don't implement it
13:21:40 <Jafet> That sounds like something you can detect with grep.
13:21:44 <Deewiant> Yeah, I forget what it's called
13:22:01 <Vorpal> I do of course have some fingerprints that need to malloc internally, but none that is explicitly for mallocing
13:22:11 <Vorpal> Nope, don't implement that
13:22:32 <Vorpal> Why is the stackstack 0 when the *stack* is non-zero
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13:23:07 <Vorpal> (the ip contains a direct pointer to the active stack
13:23:12 <Jafet> echo **/*.c | grep malloc -A1 | grep -v NULL
13:23:33 <Vorpal> Jafet, might me a realloc that is failing, I don't know
13:24:23 <Vorpal> Hm the stack is 23268 entries. Not bad
13:26:18 <Vorpal> I found a memory leak though, but it doesn't explain what I'm seeing
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13:31:36 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I have been thinking about another possible pseudo-async-threads idea that would be easier to implement btw. Basically have a fingerprint that modifies stuff like SOCK that can block so that other concurrent-funge threads will continue to run while that is blocked.
13:31:57 <Vorpal> I believe it is similar to what python ends up doing
13:41:10 <Vorpal> Deewiant, hm, if t fails due to out of memory, should the program just exit? I seem to remember it something was supposed to reflect on OOM but I can't find it in the spec atm
13:42:02 <Vorpal> Oh it was { that could do that
13:54:30 <fizzie> From some preliminary investigations, it would seem that the babbling code -- occasionally, when the generated string is overlong -- accidentally pops off the "current position in input buffer" value.
13:54:35 <fizzie> Though for some reason there's the value "1730" under it, I don't know what that number is.
13:56:23 <fizzie> A real debugger to run this in would be nice.
13:56:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is also 2*5*173
13:56:55 <fizzie> I guess, but a more funge-oriented one would still be better.
13:57:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, etc/example.gdbinit has some helpful stuff
13:57:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, or you could use the debugger in ccbi, as far as I remember it was kind of okayish, though far less useful than gdb in general
13:58:13 <fizzie> Hmm, I suppose brkcell would be mostly what I need. Or I guess the brkinst also works for undefined instructions?
13:58:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, Pretty sure it does, remember you need debug symbols
13:59:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway did you actually end up executing an undefined instruction?
13:59:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can also use -W and -E to cfunge to show warnings and non-fatal errors
13:59:57 <Vorpal> Not enabled by default since they would affect standard conformance
14:00:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, I was just thinking of using an undefined instruction as a "source breakpoint" thing with that gdb brkinst.
14:00:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh yeah that would work
14:00:42 <fizzie> (Since then I don't have to compute the y offsets manually.)
14:03:35 <fizzie> Actually, I think I'll just use 'z', since I don't have any real z's.
14:04:46 <Vorpal> I'm having a very strange memory leak here on OOM
14:05:51 <Vorpal> I'm leaking exactly 1 stack, 3 opcode stacks and one stackstack. Very strange
14:06:21 <Deewiant> Vorpal: I'd reflect whenever possible, including on OOM
14:07:00 <Vorpal> Deewiant, Hm. I went with the fatal error instead in this case
14:07:44 <Deewiant> I don't think the interpreter should ever die if it can avoid it
14:08:24 <Vorpal> In this case, it is hard to avoid, I tried doing that before which caused a sigsegv a bit later instead
14:08:48 <Deewiant> Why would you segfault because of that?
14:09:48 <Vorpal> In this case because the IP list had already been extended but the IP ended up with an invalid stackstack. I can try to handle all these yes, but it would be really annoying.
14:10:50 <fizzie> Huh, seems that the 1730 is from a mostly-benign stack bug, where a no-argument ^style leaves an extra "1730" on the stack, under the current-input-buffer-index that's supposed to stay there.
14:10:54 <Deewiant> Yes, doing things correctly can be annoying :-P
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14:11:14 <fizzie> I think I should perhaps fix that first, before proceeding on the babble-bug.
14:11:18 <Vorpal> Deewiant, in most languages you wouldn't have the option not to exit
14:11:19 <Deewiant> It doesn't /really/ matter though, feel free to fail, I just don't think it's the best way
14:11:26 <Vorpal> Deewiant, thinking of most high level languages here
14:11:50 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Lots of them have out of memory exceptions or whatever
14:11:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, Isn't it the 1730 that is causing the issue?
14:12:22 <Vorpal> I didn't know haskell had that for example.
14:12:40 <Vorpal> Very much doubt erlang has it, though I am not sure.
14:12:43 <Deewiant> Vorpal: You said "most languages", I'm just saying there are lots of counterexamples
14:13:05 <Deewiant> Functional languages tend to be the type that don't have it in their spec, yes
14:13:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, the issue is that the whole current-input-buffer-index value has been popped off the stack accidentally by the babble code. (The 1730 is related in the sense that it's what is then used as the input buffer index, breaking things badly.)
14:13:24 <Vorpal> Deewiant, Well I said most high level languages. Which means something a bit above C++'s OOM exception
14:13:27 <Deewiant> In GHC they could add an out of memory exception for everything if they wanted, I guess
14:13:41 <fizzie> But the ^style handler is a lot smaller than the babbling code, so I'll fix that first.
14:15:23 <fizzie> Oh, it's just the number of the line after the last style.
14:15:37 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Shrug, lots of languages have it and I guess lots don't, but you could also add it as an option (custom exception type or a special handler that is used only if the user defines it, or the like) in lots of the ones that don't...
14:15:40 <fizzie> The list of available styles has apparently been loaded at y=1728.
14:15:50 <fizzie> (Because "ccc**" is easy to spell, and quite out of the way.)
14:16:00 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Befunge has the nice generic "instruction failed" error in the form of reflection, so I think it should be used whenever possible
14:16:18 <Vorpal> Deewiant, that doesn't work for t though, since the parent thread reflects anyway
14:16:24 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and the issue in this case was in t
14:16:44 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Sure it works, the parent thread can wait for the child to confirm that it exists
14:16:59 <Vorpal> Most programs probably don't though
14:17:11 <Vorpal> IIPC, which I don't implement
14:17:15 <Deewiant> Sure, most programs don't check for malloc(1) failing either
14:17:36 <Deewiant> Or it's 3 only isn't it, mmap is both
14:18:18 <Deewiant> Point being that I think the option should be there even if nobody actually uses it
14:19:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: How do I ask gdb for the character at (x,y) in fungespace?
14:20:15 <Jafet> You write the C expression that produces the character at (x,y) in fungespace
14:20:29 <FreeFull> You write a befunge plugin for gdb
14:20:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, call fungespace_dumparea(minx,miny,maxx,maxy)
14:20:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is also fungespace_dump and fungespace_dump_sparse
14:21:34 <Vorpal> Deewiant, sure, but that takes a struct funge_vector
14:21:35 <Jafet> cfunge, a gdb plugin
14:21:47 <Vorpal> Deewiant, which is somewhat annoying to invent on the command line iirc
14:21:51 <Vorpal> I never figured it out anyway
14:22:15 <Jafet> You just need a make_funge_vector
14:22:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, I also have stack_dump(funge_stack*) (if you have the IP you could do stack_dump(ip->stack)
14:22:51 <Vorpal> Jafet, vector_create_ref is a macro alas
14:22:58 <Vorpal> #define vector_create_ref(a, b) (& (funge_vector) { .x = (a), .y = (b) })
14:23:12 <Deewiant> This is why you make everything a function instead of a macro!
14:23:13 <Vorpal> Last I tried (over a year ago) that syntax didn't work in gdb
14:23:13 <fizzie> Okay, that's also slightly nicer than my current manual looking at ->top and ->entries[0].
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14:23:34 <Deewiant> And then say "unless your compiler has good LTO the end result will be unusably slow"
14:23:36 <Jafet> That's a good way to get a pointer to a funge_vector.
14:23:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is a stack_print_top that prints the top 5 elements as well
14:23:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway entires[0] would be the bottom of the stack.
14:24:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, it grows up not down
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14:24:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, you know, adding a debugger is on my TODO, just never got around to it
14:24:48 <Vorpal> I won't make any promises either. But maybe at some point yes
14:25:18 <Vorpal> Would mean adding readline/libedit and what not (I couldn't live without line editing personally).
14:27:17 <Vorpal> Deewiant, doesn't actually work that well in my experience. Nothing close to the real deal.
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14:27:46 <Deewiant> Shrug, I haven't had any problems
14:28:15 <Deewiant> Maybe I'm not a heavy enough readline user :-P
14:32:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, seems that the extra 1730 was actually my fault; had forgotten that the styles.list needs to be terminated by a line that has a single \0 at start. (Now it tried to STRN/G an empty line, and that reflected, and I hadn't expected that G to reflect.)
14:32:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: (If you want to keep that fungot testing environment you did, you should probably also append a \0 at the end of the styles.list I described.)
14:32:38 <fungot> fizzie: direct your self-loathing elsewhere!
14:32:50 <fizzie> (And yeah, it's kind of brittle code.)
14:33:00 <Deewiant> (See? Nobody does error checking)
14:33:09 <fizzie> Oh well, back to actually figuring out the real problem.
14:33:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, can you still reproduce the real issue?
14:34:14 <fizzie> It might reproduce a bit differently, but it should still get confuzzled.
14:34:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, I will be pushing a bunch of minor fixes (mostly fixing clang warnings and OOM handling) shortly btw.
14:34:55 <Vorpal> Also LARGE_IPLIST will now be default.
14:34:56 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Are you building with -Weverything?
14:35:15 <Vorpal> Deewiant, Is that a real clang option? I think I'm building with -Wall or some such
14:35:38 <fizzie> Aww, it no longer actually crashes. But it still does a wrong.
14:35:39 <Deewiant> Vorpal: -Wall is like GCC's -Wall in that it enables a large set of common and useful warnings or whatever
14:35:46 <Deewiant> Vorpal: -Weverything enables every single -Wfoo option
14:36:02 <Deewiant> I like to use -Weverything and then -Wno-foo the ones I don't care about
14:36:05 <fizzie> I think I'll stick a fixed big number under the current-input-index value so that the crash is more spectacular, for debugging.
14:36:06 <Vorpal> I don't do anything special for clang wrt. warnings. Only for GCC
14:36:23 <Vorpal> Mostly because there is no built in cmake define to check if you use clang
14:37:10 <Deewiant> -Weverything will probably give you a huge pile of warnings but after a few -Wno-foos for the super-common and not-too-problematic ones you might be left with just some useful ones that -Wall missed
14:37:28 <Vorpal> Deewiant, huge pile is an understatement XD
14:37:55 <Deewiant> Probably more than it's willing to output, I guess it stops printing them after 100 or whatever
14:38:06 <Deewiant> -Wsigned-conversion or something like that tends to fire a lot
14:38:14 <Vorpal> Deewiant, Also I get some warnings from a really common header. For every file. Oh well
14:38:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a bit annoying for debugging that with the brkinst 'z' breakpoint in place, generating one line of babble takes half a minute.
14:38:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is due to how gdb does it I'm afraid
14:38:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, which is breaking, checking and continuing
14:39:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could add a check in the code, or break on the line where z is handled (interpreter.c, function execute_instruction, for me it is line 179)
14:39:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, so that "case 'z'" there would work if you broke on that
14:40:00 <Vorpal> should be a lot faster
14:40:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, other than that, there is little that can be done to fix gdb
14:41:38 <fizzie> Yes, I guess I could do that.
14:42:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, other than optimize the code so you have fewer instructions being executed of course
14:43:02 <fizzie> The breakpoint-on-the-"break;"-line is blazing fast.
14:43:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, well of course, it doesn't have to break and switch to gdb on every executed funge instruction
14:50:02 <Vorpal> Deewiant, you know, for me using ninja is almost less efficient than using make.
14:51:05 <Vorpal> Deewiant, The reason is that the build time is so low anyway, and typing make is faster (one letter shorter and alternating hands for the letters), than typing ninja in the terminal (all but one letter of ninja is with the same hand)
14:52:14 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I need at least mak<tab> or nin<tab>, and then we get back to the alternating hand issue again
14:52:56 <Vorpal> Of course typing make is just as fast as mak<tab>, if not faster
14:53:02 <Deewiant> "nin" is pretty easy with one hand IMO, since you can keep one finger at n
14:53:29 <fizzie> I told gdb to break execute_instruction if (ip->stack->top < 2), let's see if it finds me the instruction responsible for popping off the input position value.
14:53:37 <fizzie> (It's been running for two minutes or so.)
14:53:39 <Deewiant> "tup upd" is the worst, of course
14:53:47 <Vorpal> Deewiant, depends on the keyboard I guess, a bit harder with an ergonomic one for it to not end up shifted away. I have a MS Natural keyboard
14:54:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, that will be slow for the reason mentioned before yes
14:54:12 <Vorpal> Deewiant, yes that is pretty bad indeed
14:54:46 <Vorpal> Deewiant, anyway that is why I think darcs never got popular. svn, git, bzr, cvs and even more so hg are all easier to type
14:54:55 <Vorpal> darcs is all left hand
14:55:26 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and don't even speak about monotone
14:56:45 <Deewiant> That's why it changed to arch then, I guess
14:57:21 <Vorpal> A wise decision (that I didn't know about)
14:57:40 <fizzie> position = {x = 57, y = 232} aha, there's the culprit.
14:58:23 <fizzie> Well, I don't know *that* yet, of course, just the particular instruction removing that value.
14:58:45 <fizzie> Which is... a $ in the code shared for all output, so I suppose I need to dig deeper to find the actual cause.
14:59:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, you should be able to break on funge space access too btw, though it would suffer the same slowness (if not worse): break fungespace_get if position-> == 123 && position->y == 345
15:00:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, if that value below the input buffer is accessed, I guess that would help? Unless you mean that it was on the stack?
15:00:28 <fizzie> It's on the stack, yes.
15:00:31 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
15:00:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess you could set a watch-point on the address in ip->stack->entries? Maybe?
15:01:16 <Vorpal> ip->stack.entries[n] that is
15:02:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually you would need to set two breakpoints I believe... fungespace_get and fungespace_get_offset, the latter taking two vectors (you would thus need to check on the sum, or put the breakpoint after the sum has been calculated already)
15:03:03 <fizzie> Well, I mean, I did already find the instruction that is responsible for dropping it, with that top < 2 break; just have to figure out why. Presumably at the $ there should be something *else* on the stack that has been accidentally dropped by an earlier instruction, which I could catch by watching for top < 3 after it's been put on.
15:03:03 <Vorpal> I have no idea why one doesn't just call the other
15:03:13 <fizzie> Assuming I can just figure out from the code what should be on stack there.
15:04:02 <fizzie> I just keep getting interrupted here.
15:04:42 <fizzie> (I mean, here at home.)
15:05:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, calling signal(SIGINT, SIG_IGN) might help
15:06:50 <fizzie> According to my documentation, the purpose of this one variable the code is looking at is "temp". So helpful.
15:07:38 <Vorpal> funge really is a write-only language
15:09:28 <fizzie> Oh, hey. I think I might have found the culprit. This code that checks for an overlong message (and truncates it) looks like it has a different stack effect for the "is too long" path than the "is okay" path.
15:09:57 <fizzie> It'd be nice if it's here, because this is a reasonably small piece of code. I didn't really relish the thought of trying to read the babble generator.
15:11:51 <Deewiant> Write-only is fine, just rewrite the program when you find a bug
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15:15:20 <fizzie> The "replies even when not spoken to sometimes" bug, yes.
15:15:49 <fizzie> fungot: You've just had a virtu-lobotomy; how do you feel?
15:15:49 <fungot> fizzie: the reason that your expression evaluates to a list then call/ cc becomes fnord, not about the blood that doesn't have bachelor's degrees?
15:16:23 <fizzie> If you're having a blood transfusion, remember to check that the blood has at least a bachelor's.
15:17:41 <Vorpal> Hm, is there a way to basically do #define x constant ## VALUE_OF_OTHER_DEFINE?
15:20:13 <Vorpal> Deewiant, that did not work hm
15:21:28 <Vorpal> Deewiant, so it it actually possible?
15:28:37 <Deewiant> That thing which you said yesterday that nobody needs or something ;-P
15:28:57 <Vorpal> Deewiant, was it? I thought it was a bit different, but oh well XD
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15:37:30 <Vorpal> doesthiswork, it doesn't
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15:55:55 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Anything interesting from -Weverything?
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16:17:39 <Vorpal> Deewiant, not really, just implicit casts mostly
16:18:01 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and all of them were intended
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16:23:31 <doesthiswork> The fixedpoint theorem in lambda calculus seems false
16:25:34 <doesthiswork> it says that for every function a fixed point exists, but if for many functions there is no constant fixed point
16:33:35 <doesthiswork> yes I know the fixed point combinator. but I get contradictions when I try and use the resulting fixed point as a constant
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16:43:43 <doesthiswork> for example \.a(a \.b( \.c( c ) ) \.d( \.e( d ) ) )
16:44:13 <doesthiswork> it has no fixed fixed point. so when I at like it does, strange things happen
16:47:03 <Jafet> That's because it's not scott continuous, duh
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16:51:38 <kmc> it finds you the least fixed point where "least" is defined in a lattice of progressively more-defined values
16:51:45 <kmc> sometimes the least fixed point is ⊥
16:52:01 <Gracenotes> there are standard notational grouping rules
16:58:21 <Gracenotes> in either case, a reason why this fixoint is ⊥ is because it never produces any value, or any expression spine, so to speak...
16:59:20 <Gracenotes> where something like factorial, it at least yields an if statement before immediately jumping into a recursive call.
17:01:24 <kmc> what kind of expression is that
17:02:53 <Jafet> A rightwards double arrow
17:03:20 <elliott> I know what it means in logic
17:03:27 <elliott> but what are you using it to mean in the lambda calculus?
17:03:36 <elliott> there is no primitive notion of ⇒, you have to define it
17:03:45 <Gracenotes> lambda calculus isn't being used computationally, I don't think
17:03:49 <elliott> (and if you take it as a primitive, of course results for the standard lambda calculus might not apply to your system)
17:04:50 <Gracenotes> people love it because beta-reduction either diverges or is strongly normalizing, although maybe not in the face of all of these extensions... dunno
17:05:25 -!- Bike_ has joined.
17:06:52 <Fiora> bike / kmc: here is a cool thing! http://arxiv.org/pdf/1306.6047v1.pdf
17:06:57 <Gracenotes> you still need a way of reducing ⇒, where it be for computing or proving
17:06:59 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
17:07:07 <Fiora> it's a paper where they analyze why interpreting python is hard/slow and some ways to speed it up and a custom python interpreter
17:07:25 <Jafet> There is no problem with unlimited fixed points at all, well, unless you don't really want to prove false
17:07:44 <Jafet> Proving false is pretty great though, you should try it
17:08:05 <Fiora> "However, due to the possibility of encountering an overloaded __add__ method, no assumptions can be made about the behavior of BINARY_ADD. In the general absence of type information, almost every instruction must be treated as INVOKE_ARBITRARY_METHOD"
17:08:23 <Jafet> But I can still make fun of python gil right
17:08:37 <olsner> yes, you can *always* do that
17:08:40 <Jafet> I want a grandfathered license to make fun of python
17:09:09 <Fiora> they do all kinds of super cool things like the whole direct-interretation looping and recompiling the code to work on a register machine
17:09:51 <Jafet> Basically, they take advantage of the fact that most python code is actually java.
17:09:54 <doesthiswork> Elliott: I got it from john shutt's blog. He's using lambda calculus to manipulate symbols and then using the results.
17:10:43 <elliott> that quote about __add__ reminds me of scheme
17:11:00 <Bike> shutt has a blog?
17:11:53 <doesthiswork> http://fexpr.blogspot.com/2013/07/bypassing-no-go-theorems.html
17:12:17 <elliott> I wonder how this relates to PyPy
17:12:22 <elliott> maybe the paper would tell me
17:12:40 <Jafet> That would involve reading it right
17:12:53 <Fiora> the difference they explain is that basically the big problem is that the cpython API (used to make extensions, I think), exposes a huge amount of the interpreter's internals
17:13:01 <Fiora> and like, you can't even change the memory layout of objects without breaking source compatibility
17:13:10 <Fiora> so like, pypy is fast, but it can't be used with those extensions
17:13:18 <Fiora> and if you want to make the extensions work, your hands are kinda tied?
17:13:36 <Fiora> (so their paper is about like, I think "what we can do if we don't break compatibility"?)
17:13:43 <elliott> yeah I read the first page... so I guess the problem is essentially "python's extension API is really awful"
17:13:48 <kmc> one of the main strategies for dealing with this is just rewriting your extensions in pure Python
17:13:53 <Bike> yeah sounds like the API here is bad
17:14:04 <kmc> because they were written in C originally only for speed
17:14:07 <Gracenotes> pypy kind of makes a deal with the devil, in that sense
17:14:11 <Fiora> yeah, the problem is they explain the API is one of the main reasons people use python >_<
17:14:30 <kmc> "Fry, it's time for you to make a metaphorical deal with the devil. And by devil I mean robot devil, and by metaphorical I mean get your coat."
17:15:24 <elliott> I wonder if you could do something really ridiculous like sort of translate C extensions back into Python with FFI calls automatically so that they're fiddling with the objects on a language level
17:15:36 <elliott> okay that sounds impractical
17:15:50 <Bike> JIT everything forever
17:18:35 <Jafet> Still waiting for JTL compilers
17:19:11 <Deewiant> Jafet: http://etoileos.com/news/archive/2009/07/23/2218/
17:19:14 <kmc> elliott: that sounds reasonable
17:19:26 <kmc> basically you make the JIT itself take on the burden of translating to the legacy CPython API
17:19:55 <kmc> I have used ctypes to call the CPython API from Python before
17:20:03 <kmc> /it's/ /the/ /best/
17:20:20 <Jafet> Pythons all the way down
17:20:48 <kmc> ride the snake seven miles
17:21:03 <olsner> maybe you could combine it with one of those things that takes python code and automatically generates C extensions for it
17:22:04 <elliott> kmc: well, the idea is like, the problem is that all the pokey stuff you can do to the object model requires things to be inefficient to support it especially because it seems like you're accessing struct fields of the objects directly and stuff?
17:22:25 <Jafet> But your python code is fast, so it evens out
17:22:27 <elliott> so if you instead turn that into Python code which messes with __dict__ and stuff then you alleviate the problem because you no longer have to keep the exact same memory layout
17:22:37 <elliott> and then "hopefully" the JIT can smooth out the horribly inefficient stuff it wants to do
17:22:44 <elliott> but it sounds like you'd probably run into a lot of problems
17:23:48 <kmc> hm I didn't know about this attack until today http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3008139/why-is-using-a-non-random-iv-with-cbc-mode-a-vulnerability
17:24:00 <Jafet> You could just compile the C code into python
17:24:18 <kmc> CBC mode sux :<
17:29:21 <Jafet> Best use for sequential IVs?
17:30:32 <Jafet> What if the state wants to get you
17:30:48 <shachaf> ecb mode might be less great in that case
17:31:17 <Jafet> What if the state considers you a problem
17:34:10 <kmc> what if the snake considers you a problem
17:35:55 <Deewiant> What if the snake considers you a program
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17:40:38 <Gracenotes> deterministic encryption algorithms are insecure
17:41:07 <Bike> all an attacker has to do is determine the intiial conditions of the universe! come ON, people
17:44:48 <Bike> probably at least like, twelve??
17:46:08 <Gracenotes> of course, block ciphers are deterministic (they have inverses)
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18:04:48 <zzo38> You assume the universe is deterministic. I am not so sure.
18:05:30 <kmc> WEP uses only a 24-bit IV.....
18:06:41 <kmc> yeah CTR mode is good; it makes one wonder why we bother with making these block ciphers invertible anyway
18:06:51 <kmc> djb also wondered that and invented Salsa20
18:08:51 <shachaf> hard to do disk encryption with ctr mode
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18:10:44 <zzo38> (But even if the universe is deterministic, it takes too much time to recover the result you are looking for anyways.)
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18:11:54 <kmc> shachaf: v. true
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18:19:32 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 20h 9m 15s ago: i do not think it is always possible to find the contents of a backflip program by running it from chosen edges. in particular if you have a region bounded entirely by
18:19:32 <lambdabot> inwards pointing arrows you will never be able to say anything about its interior.
18:19:32 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 20h 6m 10s ago: well, ignoring output.
18:21:27 <zzo38> Yes it does looks like it; there is an ambiguous. But, you can't win them all.
18:23:42 <zzo38> If you are told the number of mirrors, arrows, and outputs, then it may help a little bit but is still ambiguous.
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18:44:53 -!- kmc has set topic: Sponsored by hexagons of increasing dimension | jsvine is doing an esolang survey!: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric & http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:45:36 <zzo38> When do you expect oerjan on today?
18:56:44 <HackEgo> olist (905): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
18:56:47 <shachaf> zzo38: Thanks for reminding me!
19:03:49 <kmc> ##crypto-drugz
19:04:01 <kmc> what's to expect re: ørjan
19:05:05 <shachaf> zzo38: fizzie can surely make you graphs and compute averages of oerjan's average connection time and so on
19:05:20 <shachaf> So now we've reduced the problem to "When do you expect fizzie on today?".
19:15:17 <fizzie> I think I have already made that graph.
19:15:47 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_tod.html and then select only oerjan.
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19:16:44 <fizzie> It would seem that oerjan's usual time of arrival is in approximately 19-20 UTC, from which I deduce he should be arriving any moment now.
19:17:42 <fizzie> Then again, last time he came in it was at 21 UTC, so YMMV.
19:19:49 <fizzie> I guess if I select only the year 2013, that matches reasonably well.
19:21:07 <fizzie> (It might be that weekends are different; unfortunately, that particular graph does not really account for it.)
19:21:37 <elliott> I thought we'd established that oerjan is on a 25-hour schedule
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19:33:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, could we get a 3D plot with number of messages, time of day, and year?
19:34:14 <fizzie> I'd just plot that as a shaded 2D surface.
19:34:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, So we could see, as a HTML5-rotatable canvas fancy thingy of course, how the time of day behavior changed over time
19:34:44 <fizzie> WebGL thing, then it's very future.
19:36:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess that is too much work
19:36:28 <fizzie> I've recently taken a peek at some WebGL things, they have this thing where they write the (OpenGL ES) shaders with <script type="x-shader/x-fragment"> and <script type="x-shader/x-vertex"> and then have their JavaScript WebGL thing go and extract those shader sources out of the DOM.
19:36:57 <fizzie> Because that's what WebGL spec refers to.
19:37:07 <Vorpal> Why on earth not use the full OpenGL?
19:37:08 <fizzie> Not that the GLSL side has any differences, I think.
19:37:22 <Vorpal> Sure? What about geometry shaders?
19:37:37 <Vorpal> Or tessellation shaders (or whatever the name was)
19:38:09 <fizzie> Well, I mean, differences to some version of OpenGL; didn't ES X.0 lift GLSL from regular OpenGL Y.0? Or maybe it's more complicated than that.
19:38:15 <fizzie> As to why ES, presumably because it's simpler.
19:38:44 <fizzie> It's also OpenGL ES 2.0, not 3.0.
19:39:00 <Vorpal> I really don't talk as much as I did in say 2010 or so hm
19:39:01 <fizzie> (I think ES 3.0 includes a newer version of GLSL.)
19:39:09 <Vorpal> Guess that is the effect of having a job
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19:40:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, is "number of characters" per message or in total?
19:41:28 <Vorpal> I would be interested to see if there was any statistically significant change in letters per line for the time of day
19:45:30 <fizzie> I don't think I track "number of characters per message at different times of day" at the moment.
19:45:38 <fizzie> There are so many possible combinations of things.
19:46:56 <fizzie> There's the "number of characters per message" graphs, but those are per person.
19:47:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you compute any statistical significances anywhere?
19:47:55 <fizzie> That's so frequentist. :p
19:49:01 <fizzie> Also I see these haven't been updated since last April; I think it's time to rerun.
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19:53:59 <fizzie> Heh, my unfortunate "internet broke at home the day I left for vacation" event is quite visible in the general activity statistics for early June.
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19:54:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, If you just look at 2013, the group of people who speaks most is FAR less than it used to be compared to [other]
19:55:38 <elliott> fizzie: I like how I'm special enough to be selected by default.
19:56:11 <elliott> also the plot doesn't seem to work here :(
19:56:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm updating the ChangeLog for cfunge, and I'm looking at "Removed scaling of coordinates from TURT." and have no idea what that is about
19:56:34 <fizzie> elliott: It's a completely objective selection, not contrived at all, and I just happened to be included.
19:56:56 <fizzie> elliott: (You'd be included by any metric, I think.)
19:59:08 <fizzie> I still haven't made a proper color selection for that handcrafted canvas graph. It's just evenly spaced hues *in order* at the moment, which doesn't make all that much sense, since it puts similar colors next to each other.
19:59:38 <elliott> fizzie: especially the "coolest people" metric.
20:00:46 <fizzie> There's a rather big shachaf component in the time-of-day graph if you turn on "normalized" and look only at 2013. I suppose that's partly the time zone aspect, but it's still quite an increase over time.
20:01:45 <fizzie> (Same applies to kmc.)
20:02:14 <elliott> do I need anything special to see the graphs?
20:02:27 <Vorpal> elliott, works in chromium for me
20:02:53 <fizzie> elliott: It *should* be just regular javascript and canvas, but the time-of-day thing is not really built on any libraries, so I could've easily done something non-compatible.
20:03:51 <elliott> I just see blankness, using whatever the latest stable Chrome is
20:04:26 <fizzie> Anything in the inspect-element/console tab?
20:04:45 <elliott> huhhh going back to the page fixed it
20:04:46 <fizzie> It's an ircnet channel for our... uh, what's the English word for first-year university students?
20:05:25 <elliott> it would be nice to have something to see how the schedule changes over time more fluidly than just clicking the years
20:05:36 <elliott> like a continuous animation where one frame is a day or something
20:05:56 <fizzie> Anyway, our freshpeople were divided into reasonably-sized groups with a couple of senior "mentor" sort of people assigned; our group had an IRC channel.
20:06:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> it would be nice to have something to see how the schedule changes over time more fluidly than just clicking the years <-- I suggested a rotatable WebGL 3D-graph for it above
20:06:10 <Vorpal> Plotting it as a surface
20:06:11 <zzo38> I think ircnet support more channel types, so if you don't want netsplit channel takeovers then don't use # type channels (all other types are safe, for different reasons).
20:07:42 <fizzie> zzo38: I think the channel might predate ircd 2.10, though I'm not sure.
20:07:43 <zzo38> Vorpal: Perhaps better would be, download the database and plot it using the software on your own computer to make whatever graph you want, in whatever format you want.
20:07:59 <zzo38> fizzie: Ah, maybe.
20:08:32 <fizzie> I don't really make downloadable "raw" dumps at the moment, primarily because no-one's asked.
20:09:05 <fizzie> The database where those activity-per-time-of-day and other such statistics are aggregated is, I think, on a month level.
20:09:13 <fizzie> (It's a sqlite thing.)
20:10:17 <fizzie> (Well, sqlite thing with nasty binary blobs in one column, it's not terribly user-friendly.)
20:10:21 <zzo38> Well, a SQLite database is the thing I was going to suggest anyways, so that works. (And then the only next thing to make, is a SQLite extension library for plotting graphics. I already made one having some useful mathematical stuff)
20:10:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, looking at the changelog I might do a release, though since it has been so long I'm not sure I can remember where exactly I uploaded all the stuff
20:10:39 <zzo38> fizzie: What data is stored in the binary blobs?
20:11:40 <Vorpal> zzo38, given the amount of data I would suggest using postgresql or such instead
20:11:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: This is aggregated statistics, it's not all that much data.
20:12:22 <fizzie> (It's generated from the PostgreSQL log db.)
20:13:43 <zzo38> But don't all the other SQL databases use a server?
20:14:44 <fizzie> zzo38: Well, different things, in different tables. But e.g. in the "time-of-day statistics", the binary blob for one month is a 24*60*2*(n+1)-element vector of integers that basically forms a (24*60)x2x(n+1) three-dimensional structure, where one dimension (the one sized 24*60) is minute-of-day, one (sized n+1) is the "nickname" dimension (there are n nicks, plus "other"), and the 2-sized one ...
20:14:50 <fizzie> ... selects whether the stored integer is a count of messages or a count of characters.
20:15:26 <zzo38> I suppose you could still read them using a virtual table module, possibly.
20:16:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, why sql at all
20:17:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was a convenient place to store all those blobs, is about all. (E.g. the "tod" table has one such vector for each month, with key "YYYY-mm", and also the precalculated sum with key "YYYY", which is where the JSON files for the web plots are generated from.)
20:17:53 <Vorpal> What good open source hosting for hg is there btw?
20:18:01 <Vorpal> Is bitbucket any good?
20:18:03 <fizzie> (Also the plots generated with RRDtool use RRDtool's own database files.)
20:18:08 <fizzie> I know people who like bitbucket.
20:18:27 <fizzie> We used it (some years ago) for a university project, and it was quite okay.
20:18:38 <fizzie> Did they support Git too these days?
20:18:52 <Vorpal> I think they do yes, but I have no personal interest in git
20:19:10 <Vorpal> All I want is some decent hg hosting, on par or better than launchpad is for bzr
20:19:26 <fizzie> Huh, Atlassian bought Bitbucket in 2010? News to me.
20:19:28 <zzo38> With a few additional functions beyond the basic SQLite, you could probably use it for statistics very good even. (In some cases, you don't even need such extra functions.)
20:21:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, wow looking at postgresql here in aptitude, there is a whole lot of extension modules for it, adding gmp style integers as a native data type and what not
20:21:06 <fizzie> Wasn't there also someone (Gregor? Some open-source project?) who used GitHub for "primary" hosting with that hg-git bridgery thing?
20:21:19 <zzo38> (There are other extensions of SQL, such as procedural SQL, but I don't find procedural SQL to be at all useful. A more useful extension might be first-class database objects.)
20:21:51 <Gregor> fizzie: I use bitbucket primarily and then GitHub is a mirror of that.
20:22:53 <Vorpal> Gregor, so what are your opinion of those two services?
20:22:55 <elliott> I forget which way around catseye does it
20:23:07 <elliott> github sort of officially support that hg-git thing, I think.
20:23:43 <Vorpal> Not sure if all hg features can be mapped to git and vice versa?
20:23:44 <Gregor> Both are fine and dandy, but since git is one of the worst pieces of software I've ever had the mispleasure of using, I use bitbucket.
20:24:29 <Vorpal> I'm used to using MQ a *lot* for organizing what I'm working on at work. But I guess that is just local stuff really hm, so that should work fine
20:24:54 <Gregor> And hg-git is very, very good.
20:25:02 <Gregor> It's certainly a better git client than git, but that's not saying much.
20:25:11 <Vorpal> Gregor, I read something exciting in some recent hg changelog about versioned history editing.
20:25:19 <Vorpal> Haven't tried it yet, looked interesting
20:29:00 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:29:33 <Taneb> Aah I have had too much alcohol
20:29:33 <zzo38> fizzie: Have you used any extensions to SQLite or just the basic program?
20:30:34 <Taneb> I think this is the first time I've been REALLY drunk
20:31:06 <kmc> how do you like it
20:31:16 <Taneb> kmc, two hours ago it was great
20:31:29 <fizzie> zzo38: I have just used the basic SQLite.
20:32:50 <zzo38> fizzie: The basic SQLite functions cannot easily deal with binary blobs and so on, and some kinds of statistics don't work very well either with the basic SQLite. Which features of SQLite did you use?
20:32:54 <kmc> Taneb: make sure to drink a lot of water
20:32:56 <olsner> Taneb: it may be even better tomorrow
20:32:59 <kmc> what's not-great about it now?
20:34:57 <zzo38> In SQLite, triggers always run in the reverse order that they were defined, as far as I can tell, and I do not know if this is documented. However, this is a very useful feature, I think, that triggers do run this way; I think it is more useful than running them in forward order. It means you can run a base SQL file and then add another file with overrides a few cases. And if you do want to be able to add triggers afterward, you can do that too!
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20:36:21 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
20:36:25 <Taneb> I am going to be hung over I can tell
20:36:41 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq.
20:37:01 <atriq> @tell Taneb check the logs for about half 9 last night, you were drunk as a skunk
20:37:48 <kmc> atriq: drinking a lot of water is the way to avoid / mitigate that
20:38:00 <atriq> Yeah, drank two pints
20:38:11 <atriq> Think I threw most of that up again
20:39:51 <fizzie> zzo38: I really just use SQLite for storage. The blobs are manipulated by Python scripts that update them (based on logs) or read them (and generate JSON objects of selected data).
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20:40:41 <fizzie> atriq: If you retain 95% of the water you drink, you just need to repeat the procedure 20 times.
20:40:52 <fizzie> Er, I mean, throw up 95%.
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20:41:12 <fizzie> I'm not drunk at all (well, at least not noticeably), and still can't count.
20:41:55 <atriq> I feel like I am going to throw up again, brb
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20:44:53 <Vorpal> atriq, did you learn to not drink as much from this?
20:45:00 <kmc> atriq: oh dear
20:45:06 <kmc> well just keep drinking water, its cheap
20:45:10 <Vorpal> atriq, If so it has been a valuable lesson in your life.
20:45:20 <elliott> glad we have Vorpal to moralise on this and every occasion vaguely relating to everything intoxicating
20:45:34 <Vorpal> elliott, it is my job,
20:45:37 <kmc> should i do bonghits to annoy Vorpal
20:45:38 <atriq> elliott, you are practically me
20:45:54 <Vorpal> Btw, someone who has PHP installed, can they confirm this evaluates to "b": <?php echo (TRUE ? "a" : TRUE ? "b" : "c")."\n"; ?>
20:46:01 <kmc> atriq: so what were you up to earlier tonight
20:46:06 <Vorpal> I'm not sure I believe PHP is *that* stupid
20:46:06 <fizzie> If elliott drinks water, will it help atriq's future hangover?
20:46:11 <Vorpal> someone I know claimed that
20:46:16 <Vorpal> don't have it installed of course
20:46:25 <elliott> atriq: am I theoretically you
20:46:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: It evaluates to b.
20:46:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, how the hell does it end up as that
20:46:38 <atriq> kmc, well it started as a Marie Curie Foundation/whatever picnic
20:46:39 <Vorpal> it makes no bloody sense
20:46:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://sprunge.us/UZRg
20:46:53 <atriq> Then we stole/won all the wine from the tombola and headed to the pub
20:46:55 <comex> Vorpal: precedence
20:47:01 <comex> (TRUE ? "a" : TRUE) ? "b" : "c"
20:47:01 <atriq> elliott, I don't think so
20:47:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's (TRUE ? "a" : TRUE) ? "b" : "c".
20:47:20 <fizzie> Arguably, associativity more than precedence.
20:47:53 <atriq> After we got to the pub I had two glasses of Pepsi and a pint of Stella
20:48:07 <atriq> Then between the five of us we drank 3 bottles of wine
20:48:22 <atriq> Everyone else had some Bucks' Fizz or whatever
20:48:31 <atriq> But I didn't because it was orange flavoured
20:48:35 <atriq> Not keen on orange
20:48:43 <fizzie> "Gin Fizz" is my favourite dickbutt (slang for cocktail) because it's like my nickname.
20:49:44 <kmc> hehe dickbutt
20:50:14 <atriq> I don't deserve to read all my webcomics right now
20:50:24 <atriq> Because I don't know if I will remember them
20:50:28 <atriq> I will wait until morning!
20:51:29 <atriq> I am glad I didn't bring ID otherwise I would have drank more
20:52:38 <atriq> I am eight months older than you elliott
20:54:05 <atriq> Which means you are 17 but almost 18
20:55:12 <atriq> Future Taneb! Do jsvine's survey when you are sobre!
20:55:41 <lambdabot> monochrom says: I am 17-ary, going on 18-ary, I can take curry of you
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21:09:08 <fizzie> It seems that the speculations about oerjan's time of arrival were more or less correct.
21:13:26 <zzo38> fizzie: So have you not written programs in SQL then? If you don't write the programs in SQL then why do you need SQL?
21:14:11 <fizzie> zzo38: I don't think I "need" SQL, but it was a convenienter way to store the blobs than individual files.
21:14:31 <kmc> sqlite is the missing datastructures library for C
21:14:33 <fizzie> (Also I think very many people use SQL databases in conjunction with programs not written in SQL.)
21:14:44 <zzo38> Yes, it does help with that purpose, at least.
21:17:05 <zzo38> I, however, tend to use SQL databases with programs written in SQL, although it may just be a file of data and then I can write queries on it, or it may be a more sophisticated thing, such as the Z-Comp database; all the statistics, formatting, and logic to read the fields of a ifMUD object and make them into the database format, are all written in SQL.
21:18:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, here's a quick sketch of how the overall "messages per time of day" total has evolved as a function of time: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130727-tmp.png
21:18:28 <zzo38> So I suppose you aren't using triggers and views and that stuff?
21:18:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: (The X axis is minute-of-day from 0 to 24*60; the Y axis, from bottom to top, is index of month, starting from 0 = '2002-12' up to 127 = '2013-07'.)
21:18:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: (It would be possible to do the JavaScript-driven "select people" kind of thing, but one problem there is data sparsity; there's already not all that much per-minute-of-day-per-user samples for robust statistics at the year level, let alone months.)
21:21:51 <fizzie> There seem to be some peaks in the "morning" around what seem to be close to summers of 2011 and 2013, but other than that there aren't any terribly clear patterns.
21:22:59 <fizzie> (Oh, forgot to mention that it's normalized so that the value for each month's highest-activity minute equals 1.)
21:24:42 <zzo38> If you only need to make a database and don't need to write any program in SQL, then using SQL seems to be too much for what is being done.
21:27:25 <fizzie> I didn't really feel any pressing need to use something like BDB here. Besides, it's convenient in the stats-generating program to be able to do things like for date, blob in db.execute("SELECT date, blob FROM tod WHERE length(date) = 4 ORDER BY date DESC"): ... to iterate over blobs corresponding to years, in order.
21:28:28 <zzo38> Yes, you can do things like that, too
21:30:30 <zzo38> But if you are using in another program (such as a C program), I would think using SQL for its databases then becomes useful if it can take queries from the user or programs from the user so that the user can define the database file with views/triggers in it; this can be used as a way to extend programs using databases.
21:30:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, why not do it for a longer period of time?
21:30:44 <ion> http://www.reddit.com/r/knives
21:31:47 <Vorpal> ion, that is obviously a joke given that almost all images are the same, and the one that isn't is a spoon
21:32:04 <zzo38> It seems to me that SQL is not a bad programming language for things using a lot of database, and it is ideal for some kinds of computer RPG style games.
21:32:26 <zzo38> SQL can be good for a lot of other things too.
21:32:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: What longer period of time?
21:32:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, you mean instead of minute?
21:32:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, 2012 is not that different from 2013 I think
21:33:05 <Vorpal> I would like to see from say 2007 or so
21:33:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Uh... that's 2002 to 2013.
21:33:24 <fizzie> I don't have data for longer than that.
21:33:26 <olsner> Vorpal: someone got unfairly banned from /r/knives, so the whole of reddit is pitching in to make justice
21:34:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh 2002 I read it as 2012
21:34:12 <Bike> operation iraqi freedom?
21:35:44 <fizzie> On another channel, where there's a guy who says always the same thing every morning when he arrives at work, and another thing when he leaves, I make a periodically updating graph of the timing of that; it's kind of funky-silly: http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/myllymaa.png
21:36:32 <olsner> did you have a graph over "hi" in #esoteric too?
21:36:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice, I hope he has the humor to take that
21:37:09 <fizzie> olsner: I don't think I have. Greetings are less structured here, I think.
21:41:07 <HackEgo> fizzie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:11:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Here's another random plot: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130727-presence-vorpal.png
22:16:05 <fizzie> Each pixel corresponds to a 3-minute segment of the last 1800 days (about five years), so that X coordinate gives the day (yesterday at right edge), Y coordinate the time-of-day (UTC midnight at edges, morning on the top side); and it's white if you said something during that 3-minute interval, black otherwise.
22:24:48 <fizzie> For comparison purposes:
22:24:50 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130727-presence-fizzie.png
22:24:54 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130727-presence-elliott.png
22:24:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, So, you would think that the point of #pragma STDC/compilername ... would be that other compilers would ignore it, right?
22:25:02 <fizzie> (The latter is especially worth a view.)
22:25:08 <Vorpal> not so for pathscale's compiler
22:25:13 <Vorpal> ../lib/fungestring/funge_strstr.c:60: error: #pragma GCC diagnostic not allowed inside functions
22:26:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, there are clear patterns in there
22:26:33 <kmc> what's that pragma do
22:26:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, also what about me?
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22:26:51 <Vorpal> kmc, in my case, just disable a warning that was a false positive in that case
22:27:24 <Vorpal> kmc, it has the syntax GCC diagnostic [warning|error|ignored] "-Wwhatever" OR GCC diagnostic [pop|push]
22:27:47 <kmc> i love it when things are stack based
22:27:50 <Vorpal> kmc, I guess I could use some macros and _Pragma
22:28:04 <kmc> hm is _Pragma a decl for pragmas or something?
22:28:12 <kmc> useful 'cause you can't produce a #pragma from a macro
22:28:28 <Vorpal> kmc, see section 6.10.9 in ISO/IEC 9899
22:28:54 <kmc> i don't have a copy handy :/
22:29:15 <Vorpal> A unary operator expression of the form:
22:29:15 <Vorpal> _Pragma ( string-literal )
22:29:15 <Vorpal> is processed as follows: The string literal is destringized by deleting the L prefix, if
22:29:15 <Vorpal> present, deleting the leading and trailing double-quotes, replacing each escape sequence
22:29:15 <Vorpal> \" by a double-quote, and replacing each escape sequence \\ by a single backslash. The
22:29:16 <Vorpal> resulting sequence of characters is processed through translation phase 3 to produce
22:29:18 <Vorpal> preprocessing tokens that are executed as if they were the pp-tokens in a pragma
22:29:20 <Vorpal> directive. The original four preprocessing tokens in the unary operator expression are
22:29:30 <Vorpal> A directive of the form:
22:29:30 <Vorpal> #pragma listing on "..\listing.dir"
22:29:30 <Vorpal> can also be expressed as:
22:29:32 <Vorpal> _Pragma ( "listing on \"..\\listing.dir\"" )
22:29:48 <Vorpal> The latter form is processed in the same way whether it appears literally as shown, or results from macro
22:29:49 <Vorpal> #define LISTING(x) PRAGMA(listing on #x)
22:29:49 <Vorpal> #define PRAGMA(x) _Pragma(#x)
22:29:49 <Vorpal> LISTING ( ..\listing.dir )
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22:29:56 <Vorpal> kmc, there is the entire section
22:30:02 <Vorpal> kmc, without formatting making it hard to read
22:30:28 <Vorpal> btw, what the hell is a pp-token? I haven't really read that part of the spec I think
22:30:32 <kmc> is that new in C99?
22:30:42 <Vorpal> kmc, no clue, I don't care about anything older anyway
22:31:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yours was the first link.
22:31:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh missed that somehow
22:31:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, the lines in elliott's image, how far apart are they? Hard to tell
22:32:14 <fizzie> I'd guesstimate some weekly periodicity.
22:32:20 <Vorpal> It varies a bit yes but hm
22:33:07 <fizzie> That'd be somewhere in 2010, I think.
22:33:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, in my case you can easily see when I booted to windows, it is almost completely black then. Do you merge my nick VorpalPhone btw?
22:34:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, your sleep schedule was usually very good, only breaking down a day here or there
22:34:42 <Vorpal> Even mine broke down a bit more than your
22:34:58 <fizzie> I think it'd be worse if the graph went more than ten years back (and used other channels, since #esoteric wasn't so active then); I've been sleeping reasonably regularly lately.
22:35:19 <elliott> although I don't know what it means
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22:36:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about ais?
22:36:03 <fizzie> And I don't seem to merge VorpalPhone in this; it's just ['anmaster_ipv6', 'anmaster', 'vorpal']. (I think I took some top-activity names and merged duplicates there, I guess VorpalPhone hadn't said all that much.)
22:36:03 <elliott> pretty interesting although frankly I can't figure out what mine means
22:36:07 <elliott> other than "I sleep all fucked"
22:36:20 <Vorpal> elliott, looks like you had a weekly cycle or such quite often
22:36:22 <elliott> sort ofi nteresting that I apparently slept for a while
22:36:27 <elliott> and then gave up sleeping for a bit
22:36:34 <elliott> and then disappeared (uh, I guess that was the unit stuff)
22:36:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, also anmaster_ and vorpal_
22:36:53 <elliott> this needs year markings I think :P
22:37:04 <Vorpal> elliott, you can measure the pixels
22:37:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: That goes automatically in this framework.
22:37:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'll generate ais523 now, but it'll take a few minutes.
22:37:31 <zzo38> I think not making macros with macros is rather a problem with the macro system in C, so instead of adding _Pragma I would have improve the preprocessor. (I wrote a proposal on how this can be done.)
22:37:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh? You should add a suitable index for this then I guess to the database
22:38:27 <elliott> fizzie: it would be interesting if you could merge the windows into general periods of activity
22:38:33 <elliott> fizzie: so that you could estimate actual blocks of awakeness and sleep
22:38:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think it's mostly because I wrote the quick script so that it asks for logs one day at a time. Getting all messages of a particular person at a time on one go would probably be reasonably fast.
22:39:17 <elliott> I dunno, it would just be sort of interesting to analyse my sleep -- if there are any patterns that would be valuable information for me (perhaps I should start logging it, although I guess I already do with irssi /aways).
22:40:12 <fizzie> Also I'll try to polish up a version (maybe something scrollable, and with axis labels, and perhaps that merging of regions client-side) for all the nicks in the existing graphs integrated with the usual graph updates.
22:40:19 <fizzie> (It's at 2012-09-01 now.)
22:41:03 <fizzie> Phew, I think all this computing raises the temperature here.
22:42:42 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130727-presence-ais523.png
22:42:49 <fizzie> That's quite a lot sparser.
22:43:01 <Vorpal> does anyone know if string merging ("foo" "bar") takes place inside of _Pragma()?
22:43:10 <Vorpal> It would be really convenient if it did
22:43:31 <fizzie> The translation phases list probably knows.
22:44:11 <fizzie> "_Pragma unary operator expressions are executed" in phase 4, while "adjacent string literal tokens are concatenated" in phase 6, so probably not.
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22:44:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, ouch, so no way to do this then:
22:44:48 <fizzie> Unless _Pragma handling explicitly does it, let's check.
22:44:49 <Vorpal> # define FUNGE_WARNING_IGNORE(warning) \
22:44:49 <Vorpal> _Pragma("GCC diagnostic push") \
22:44:49 <Vorpal> _Pragma("GCC diagnostic ignored \"" warning "\"")
22:45:53 <fizzie> "A unary operator expression of the form: _Pragma ( string-literal ) --" it does not appear so.
22:46:40 <fizzie> There's an example which sort of suggests that you might be able to accomplish that with a clever enough use of macro expansion and stringizing.
22:47:44 <Vorpal> #define LISTING(x) PRAGMA(listing on #x)
22:47:44 <Vorpal> #define PRAGMA(x) _Pragma(#x)
22:47:44 <Vorpal> LISTING ( ..\listing.dir )
22:47:58 <fizzie> Well, the general idea would be to use a S(foo bar baz) macro in place of a "foo bar baz" string literal, but the "s in the string could be a problem.
22:48:32 <Vorpal> #pragma GCC diagnostic push
22:48:32 <Vorpal> #pragma GCC diagnostic ignored "-Wcast-qual"
22:48:33 <Vorpal> #pragma GCC diagnostic pop
22:48:42 <Vorpal> is what the original code might look like
22:49:08 <fizzie> You probably can't have a " preprocessing token all alone in there to be stringized.
22:49:33 <Vorpal> Guess I need a unique macro for each one I want to ignore
22:51:08 <fizzie> If you don't mind including the quotes in the macro parameter -- as in, FUNGE_WARNING_IGNORE("foo") -- I think it can work.
22:51:14 <zzo38> It would be more useful if macros are also allowed to define macros.
22:51:28 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/aVQW
22:51:51 <fizzie> If you just remove the ""s around "_Pragma(" and ")" I think that should expand to a _Pragma operator with the contents you need.
22:51:56 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: may not work.)
22:52:55 <fizzie> It also sort of relies on nobody #defining any macros called "GCC", "diagnostic" or "ignored", since those will get expanded too as they're not safely inside a string literal. :p
22:53:23 <Vorpal> /home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/lib/fungestring/funge_strchr.c: In function ‘funge_strchr’:
22:53:23 <Vorpal> /home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/lib/fungestring/funge_strchr.c:31:0: warning: ignoring #pragma S [-Wunknown-pragmas]
22:53:23 <Vorpal> /home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/lib/fungestring/funge_strchr.c:33:11: warning: cast discards ‘__attribute__((const))’ qualifier from pointer target type [-Wcast-qual]
22:53:37 <Vorpal> (just used your names directly for testing)
22:54:15 <fizzie> Hrmm, in that case I think it needs a slight change: make it #define S(x) _Pragma(#x) instead, and remove the _Pragma() from W.
22:54:59 <Vorpal> #define S(x) _Pragma(#x)
22:54:59 <Vorpal> #define W(w) S(GCC diagnostic ignored w)
22:55:14 <fizzie> Yes. And possibly it will need the usual extra level of indirection, as in #define S(x) _Pragma(#x) #define T(x) S(x) #define W(w) T(GCC diagnostic ignored w)
22:55:24 <fizzie> Was too tired to actually think it through. :p
22:55:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I had a level of indirection anyway
22:55:35 <Vorpal> #define S(x) _Pragma(#x)
22:55:36 <Vorpal> #define W(w) S(GCC diagnostic ignored w)
22:55:36 <Vorpal> #if defined(CFUNGE_COMP_PATHSCALE)
22:55:36 <Vorpal> # define FUNGE_WARNING_IGNORE(warning) /* NO-OP */
22:55:36 <Vorpal> # define FUNGE_WARNING_RESTORE() /* NO-OP */
22:55:37 <Vorpal> #elif defined(CFUNGE_COMP_GCC) || defined(CFUNGE_COMP_CLANG)
22:55:38 <Vorpal> # define FUNGE_WARNING_IGNORE(warning) \
22:55:40 <Vorpal> _Pragma("GCC diagnostic push") \
22:55:44 <Vorpal> # define FUNGE_WARNING_RESTORE() _Pragma("GCC diagnostic pop")
22:55:50 <Vorpal> I will clean that up, figuring out how many levels
22:56:00 <Vorpal> yeah that level is needed
22:58:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, interesting thing:
22:59:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you think that will behave?
22:59:27 <Vorpal> will the if statement properly "parent" the foo() or not?
22:59:35 <Vorpal> My tests shows that it doesn't.
23:02:19 <fizzie> Huh; I would've thought that it should.
23:02:38 <Vorpal> but moving that pragma up one line made the code work
23:02:41 <Vorpal> thus I presume it doesn't
23:03:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, if it matters that #pragma ... was actual two pragmas (push warnings, and then ignore a warning)
23:03:31 <Vorpal> Really? Then what on earth was going on
23:03:45 <fizzie> Preprocessing directives should all be deleted at the end of phase 4, which is well before tokens get turned into statements.
23:03:50 <fizzie> Something strange, presumably.
23:05:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, so, pathscale should now work. If anyone uses it. Doubtful
23:05:32 <Vorpal> Project on github seems mostly dead
23:05:37 <fizzie> Of course the way #pragma is specified -- "causes the implementation to behave in an implementation-defined manner" -- makes it legal to do whatever.
23:06:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about #pragma STDC?
23:06:11 <Vorpal> that is not implementation defined
23:06:27 <fizzie> That, I think, should never affect parsing of statements.
23:06:41 <zzo38> O, so does clang support GCC pragmas?
23:07:14 <Vorpal> zzo38, these ones at least yes
23:07:39 <Vorpal> zzo38, or at least it didn't complain, and everything seemed to work
23:07:48 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/MCOY -- that seems to work as expected.
23:08:06 <Vorpal> If the preprocessing token STDC does immediately follow pragma in the directive (prior
23:08:06 <Vorpal> to any macro replacement), then no macro replacement is performed on the directive, and
23:08:06 <Vorpal> the directive shall have one of the following forms
23:08:21 <Vorpal> Interesting, that "no macro replacement"
23:08:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, what about a GCC diagnostic pragma?
23:09:04 <zzo38> O, so if it isn't STDC, then it might or might not be macros, because it is implementation-defined, I suppose.
23:09:08 <kmc> clang is nearly bug-for-bug compatible with GCC
23:09:20 <kmc> they have -fheinous-gnu-extensions
23:09:32 <Vorpal> kmc, true, I did hit a few issues at some point I remember
23:09:39 <kmc> "error: invalid use of a cast in a inline asm context requiring an l-value: remove the cast or build with -fheinous-gnu-extensions"
23:09:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: It indeed behaves differently: http://sprunge.us/YYBC
23:09:45 <Vorpal> kmc, is it documented exactly what it does?
23:10:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: You could perhaps even call that a QoI issue. (It perhaps doesn't quite merit the word "bug".)
23:10:21 <fizzie> Quality-of-Implementation.
23:10:57 <fizzie> Presumably there's something about the GCC diagnostic pragmas -- perhaps in the way they're stored in the resulting IR representations -- that make them count as a statement for the if.
23:12:22 <fizzie> Also, I added https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130727-presence-oerjan.png which looks kinda patterny too. (The actual polished for-everyone implementation will still have to wait for some other day, though.)
23:12:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, the problem with the __has_feature and __has_builtin of clang is that nothing else supports that
23:14:36 <fizzie> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.8.1/gcc/Diagnostic-Pragmas.html -- see the example given for #pragma message at the end, with the DO_PRAGMA(x) _Pragma(#x) macro -- seems that it's "common practice" (FSVO common) to do the concatenation like that.
23:15:31 <fizzie> (Though their example has actual string literals concatenated somewhere in the macro expansion process, I'm not terribly sure that should work.)
23:16:20 <fizzie> Maybe it's part of the handling of #pragma message in particular, since it says "string" in it, and has that #pragma message "Compiling " __FILE__ "..." too.
23:16:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, this looks cool http://clang.llvm.org/docs/AddressSanitizer.html
23:17:05 <Vorpal> Also that output looks so similar to valgrind
23:17:42 <fizzie> I've heard people praise the clang FooSanitizers.
23:17:50 <Vorpal> they have more of them?
23:17:53 <Vorpal> I need to look at that
23:18:08 <fizzie> They have a MemorySanitizer and a ThreadSanitizer, at least.
23:18:32 <fizzie> (I don't know which ones are good and/or actively developed.)
23:19:43 <fizzie> I also remember hearing they included some of those sanitizers in some other thing recently, but not what.
23:21:57 <fizzie> Right, GCC 4.8 includes copies of AddressSanitizer and ThreadSanitizer.
23:22:56 <Vorpal> Really? Straight copies?
23:23:01 <fizzie> And tsan is based on valgrind? Something like that.
23:23:13 <Vorpal> So how does one enable them in GCC 4.8?
23:23:44 <fizzie> Oh, an old version of tsan was based on Valgrind, but the new LLVM-based one isn't.
23:24:40 <Vorpal> gcc-4.8: error: -fsanitize=thread linking must be done with -pie or -shared
23:26:06 <Vorpal> Well cfunge doesn't use threads anyway, so I'll drop that
23:26:33 <Vorpal> And the address one doesn't detect anything
23:26:37 <Vorpal> Nor does valgrind of course
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23:27:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, should mess with clang static analysis tomorrow as well, good night
23:28:11 <fizzie> Incidentally, have you compiled cfunge with "-Wsuggest-attribute=stuff" flags?
23:28:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have, and I added a bunch of pure and const, I had the old format one for ages (missing-format or whatever)
23:28:51 <Vorpal> does clang have that too?
23:29:26 <fizzie> (Apparently -Wsuggest-attribute=format is a modern-style alias for -Wmissing-format-attribute.)
23:29:55 <Vorpal> yay I added -fsanitize=memory for clang and cfunge just segfaults right away
23:30:06 <Vorpal> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
23:30:06 <Vorpal> 0x0000555555579184 in __sanitizer::internal_mmap(void*, unsigned long, int, int, int, unsigned long long) ()
23:30:19 <fizzie> It's so sanitized it doesn't even run.
23:31:18 <Vorpal> $ ./cfunge ../mycology/mycology.b98
23:31:18 <Vorpal> =================================================================
23:31:18 <Vorpal> ==2668==ERROR: AddressSanitizer: SEGV on unknown address 0x000000000000 (pc 0x000000000000 sp 0x7fffa7db9bb8 bp 0x7fffa7db9bf0 T0)
23:31:19 <Vorpal> AddressSanitizer can not provide additional info.
23:31:38 <Vorpal> gdb suggests it segfaults in 0x0 called by clock_gettime()
23:32:41 <oerjan> <fizzie> (It might be that weekends are different; unfortunately, that particular graph does not really account for it.) <-- more seriously, my moving has shifted things a bit because the nearby restaurant now has later opening hours
23:34:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, they're slightly experimental still, I think.
23:34:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, the gcc ones doesn't crash at least
23:36:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the practical use of the static assert of C11?
23:36:54 <Vorpal> I really need to read up on C11
23:38:18 <Vorpal> Ooh the generic selector thingy looks fancy
23:38:19 <oerjan> <elliott> I thought we'd established that oerjan is on a 25-hour schedule <-- that is also approx. true but although i can wake up at wildly varying times, the time i leave the house is still mostly eveningish
23:38:50 <oerjan> which means that the time i log on after coming back is more stable than my actual sleeping rhythm.
23:40:29 <zzo38> oerjan: The algorithm you told me works; I made it to keep track of the states in the Haskell program, and then I made a C program, and it works. Also, the reason I asked is this is the encoding used for Z-machine texts. Infocom did not know the algorithm and didn't implement it (instead using always state 0), making Graham Nelson believe there is no permanent shifts in version 3.
23:41:07 <oerjan> unless i am actually sleeping throughout the evening, which happens on occasion.
23:41:18 <oerjan> zzo38: what are permanent shifts?
23:41:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: I guess testing for things you can't do on the preprocessor, like ones involving enums or sizeof.
23:41:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: (I think they perhaps got it from C++, where it might have more uses, since there are a lot more constant expressions on that side.)
23:42:01 <zzo38> oerjan: There are two shift codes, and depending on the current state they are temporary (for the next character only), or permanent (until it is changed again).
23:42:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I can definitely see the point in C++
23:43:25 <fizzie> oerjan: Your plot seems to have some sort of diagonal-like patterning, which I guess would indicate some kind of drifting.
23:43:33 <zzo38> (Graham Nelsons called them shifts and shiftlocks, and said that there are no shiftlocks in version 3. I now know this to be wrong, because I found Infocom's documentation.)
23:43:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, where is oerjan's plot?
23:44:15 <oerjan> fizzie: also the last year has been insane so don't expect patterns to last longer than a couple months or so.
23:44:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think I pasted a link; the same naming scheme, anyway.
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23:46:12 <oerjan> fizzie: the interpretation is rather hard without beginning and ending dates hth
23:46:52 <oerjan> i am guessing each vertical line is 24 hours, at least
23:48:42 <fizzie> oerjan: There's an explanation in the logs.
23:48:53 <fizzie> oerjan: It's approx. last 5 years, anyway.
23:49:36 <fizzie> oerjan: (And each column is indeed 24 hours; each pixel is 3 minutes; top/bottom edge is UTC midnight.)
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23:49:49 <Vorpal> top being the morning side right?
23:51:52 <zzo38> oerjan: You said that a BackFlip program with arrow surrounding some area, makes it not deduce what is inside. Yes, I think that is true, but you can't win them all; that's OK.
23:52:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, I might consider moving to C11 with cfunge, some of the stuff looks really cool
23:55:02 <oerjan> zzo38: yes, and elliott suggested that you could instead of checking if a solution is exactly what you want, check if it has the same effect in all cases. although i thought that would require players to give directions, too. simon tatham's black box puzzle works similarly. although that doesn't have changing internal state.
23:56:54 <oerjan> come to think of it, the changing internal state might make it computationally expensive to check whether a solution really is equivalent, in all cases.
23:57:49 <zzo38> Yes, that is one of the reasons why I just leave it how it is; it is possible that you cannot always earn the maximum score.
00:01:18 <zzo38> I think the mirrors act like they do in Floyd's Bumpershot (a game I have read about somewhere; I haven't played). Adding the other pieces of that game and of Black Box game, can make it a generalized version of those game; I already said the computer tells you ahead of time how many mirrors, how many arrows, etc; you could also make the user configure the possible range of how many. Now it can make a superset of these games.
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00:09:30 <oerjan> there's also the undead puzzle from tatham's collection that is a bit similar.
00:10:06 <oerjan> hm didn't doesthiswork say something in the logs i wanted to quibble about :P
00:10:27 <oerjan> i've just forgotten what it was
00:10:45 <doesthiswork> probably something about lambda calc fixed points
00:11:07 <Sgeo> I am addicted to Listerine PocketPak strips
00:12:26 <oerjan> oh right. i think the others shot that down for me. what i wanted to say is that the fixed point theorem doesn't apply to _typed_ lambda calculus, because the types are usually specifically made to avoid nontermination (without explicit recursion), which is essential to construct the usual diagonal argument.
00:19:22 <oerjan> or perhaps equivalently, the fixed point theorem is incompatible with types that give you a curry-howard isomorphism with a consistent logic.
00:20:09 <oerjan> which looked like what you were trying to look at
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00:21:26 <doesthiswork> What have people used the fixed point theorem to prove?
00:25:38 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:25:46 <oerjan> that you can do arbitrary recursive computations?
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00:26:31 <oerjan> i am not aware of any more technical uses
00:27:45 <oerjan> i suppose it also destroyed church/curry's original attempts to do logic in lambda calculus/combinatory logic without any types
00:28:05 <oerjan> which may be what you have rediscovered
00:28:25 <doesthiswork> Yes, that is exactly the problem I was trying to understand
00:29:20 <oerjan> and it does this in a way that is similar to how russell's paradox destroyed naive set theory, i think. in fact they are both diagonal arguments.
00:29:55 <oerjan> as are godel's incompleteness theorem and turing's halting problem proof
00:30:50 <oerjan> a great deal of rampage and destruction from just one basic proof idea, there.
00:31:20 <oerjan> there are also the complexity hierarchy theorems, which might not be considered destructive.
00:32:03 <zzo38> Is the typed lambda calculus basically like what Hofstadter called "rule of detachment" and "fantasy rule" (also, as it says, often called the "Modus Ponens" and "Deduction Theorem")?
00:33:52 <oerjan> zzo38: um there's the curry-howard isomorphism with intuitionistic propositional logic terms in -> , those would both be rules of that so i suppose they are included...
00:34:23 <zzo38> Yes, of intuitionistic logic, I know, not of classical
00:34:33 <oerjan> you mean application is like modus ponens and lambda is like the deduction theorem?
00:34:43 <oerjan> when you look at what they do to types
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00:39:17 <zzo38> What would be the shortest possible sequent calculus which is Turing complete?
00:40:57 <zzo38> Do Wang tiles remain Turing complete when generalized to different geometries?
00:42:00 <doesthiswork> if you restricted them to a finite area they wouldn't
00:42:33 <zzo38> Yes, I know, I mean geometries which have infinite areas?
00:43:43 <doesthiswork> since you can embed 2d wang tiles in any such geometrty I would have to say yes they'd still be turing equivalent
00:45:44 <zzo38> But what if the tiles are triangular or something like that?
00:47:41 <doesthiswork> stick two triangles together and you have a parallelogram. Tile the plane with this shape
00:50:41 <doesthiswork> (I don't know how to embed 2 dimensions in a one dimensional line)
00:51:05 <zzo38> O, yes, you can make a parallelogram like that, if you add an extra color.
00:56:05 <oerjan> doesthiswork: i am pretty sure one-dimensional tiling is _not_ TC (should be a finite automaton, essentially)
00:58:14 <doesthiswork> Then I wonder what the minimum number of dimensions needed for a tiling to be TC. I think 1.5 is possible
01:02:20 <oerjan> i am not sure that fractal dimensions are compatible with tilings.
01:02:51 <oerjan> maybe they are, though
01:05:09 <doesthiswork> I think the serpinski triangle could host a TC wang tiles.
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01:18:16 <tswett> zzo38: are Wang tiles a sequent calculus?
01:18:55 <tswett> And what does it mean for a sequent calculus to be TC? Does it mean that there's a such-and-such which maps Turing machines onto statements in the calculus such that the statement is provable if and only if the machine halts?
01:33:06 <oerjan> sounds like the obvious interpretation, anyway
01:34:06 <zzo38> tswett: I don't know, maybe it would be possible to make a sequent calculus of Wang tiles but I don't know
01:34:44 <zzo38> tswett: Yes, that is what I mean by a sequent calculus to be TC (and I have made a set of sequent calculus rules which implement a Turing machine).
01:37:56 <zzo38> I have also made up a way to interpret a sequent calculus as an asymmetric game (although the initial state isn't a part of these rules; it must be decided separately somehow). Put the initial state at the bottom, and follow the rules going up. The first player's job is to select a rule and substitutions in it. The second player's job is to select one of the sequents above the line in that rule. Whoever has no legal move loses.
01:41:02 <zzo38> (Because it is Turing-complete, it is possible to result in a draw, and there isn't necessarily any way to know it is a draw, although sometimes it is possible to tell.)
01:44:05 <tswett> There is a game semantics for linear logic.
01:45:39 <tswett> But I don't really know what its significance is.
01:46:47 <Gracenotes> a lot of things and logics have game semantics, where you have a goal and things which both help and hinder you from reaching that goal.
01:47:43 <zzo38> I think that is a different kind of game semantics though.
01:48:30 <Gracenotes> I like to call them 'adversarial models'. I think they're called that.
01:49:58 <CADD> Gracenotes: now the question is, how do you make a program that will make qualifying and quantifying human knowledge into a logical framework that can be interpreted by computers as fun as a video game!?!
01:50:41 <Bike> "trivial pursuit, forever"
01:52:09 <CADD> you are right, you can never make programming a computer as fun as farmville..
01:52:48 <CADD> actually i take that back, farmville sucks.
01:52:57 <CADD> programming is much better
01:53:22 <CADD> its a pie in the sky idea
01:53:41 <Gracenotes> human knowledge isn't logical, and it can't be put into a logical framework
01:53:55 <doesthiswork> I have heard of people happily doing repetitive tasks over and over without the slightest thought of automation.
01:53:56 <CADD> well you can create a mapping of the illogic
01:54:00 <Gracenotes> although perhaps you refer to the small subset of human knowledge that has explicit structural representations
01:54:44 <zzo38> Well, you can make some kinds of human knowledge into a logical framework, and some kinds of logical framework can be used for representing human knowledge, but actually it is different things, and their purposes can also vary a lot, and these also aren't the only two things.
01:56:17 <Gracenotes> In any case, a lot of pieces of knowledge are not universally true; they come attached with probabilities.
01:56:29 <Gracenotes> with priors, both explicit and implicit
01:56:44 <CADD> right thats true, but there is a lot of data out there that could be structured but isnt.
01:57:06 <CADD> now the question is how do you make structuing that data appealing to a wide, non techinical audience?
01:57:14 <Gracenotes> I 'know' that this car 100ft ahead of me is going to change into my lane in front of the car in front of me within 5 seconds
01:57:16 <CADD> even for vanities sake
01:58:13 <quintopia> such as the relationship between all dongs which contain a particular four note riff
01:58:14 <zzo38> Well, if it helps (or is even the least bit relevant at all), I have made a sequent calculus for sokoban game.
01:58:28 <CADD> as in structuing data about yourself, to create a "social media collage" of the unstructued data available on the internet.
01:59:03 <Bike> no, i like this one.
02:00:16 <CADD> so although the collage may not have much structured data attached to it, it would be possible to publish this data structure and further integrate it with other structures that people have made.
02:00:45 <Gracenotes> in general, people assume universality a lot more than it actually exists
02:01:07 <Bike> What do you do with the multiple incompatible strucctures obtainable from different social networks?
02:01:49 <Gracenotes> language (both natural and constructed/computer, actually) flattens it into communicable form. Very very restrictive.
02:01:51 <CADD> well, so im trying to see if it is possible to have a semantic network of information slowly built by individual actors
02:02:31 <CADD> so you could create a judgement that "obama is the president". although that would obviously have to have some sort of symbolic representation.
02:02:57 <CADD> and that like i said earlier, it would even be open to vanity statements. such as "this is a picture of what i had for lunch"
02:03:22 <CADD> so now you have all this associations that are only semi structured at this point
02:03:50 <Bike> How do these "judgments" relate to intuitionistic type theory? Or the unstructured information ("intuitions")?
02:03:57 <CADD> the interesting part comes from when a large amount of people agree on the symbolic representation that "obama is the president"
02:05:08 <CADD> or even the minor unimportant details as affirming symbolically that your firend did indeed have what she said for lunch
02:05:23 <CADD> thus adding more weight to the judgement, or proposition
02:06:54 <CADD> lol, im talking about my crazy idea
02:07:19 <Bike> i already asked questions :-(
02:08:16 <CADD> right, ok so the most important part is the consensus on symbolic representation of our "common knoledge" in the world. the social media bit is essientially just a hook.
02:08:42 <Bike> But that's where you have to get information from. And people deploy different "personae" on different networks.
02:09:09 * oerjan wonders if Cyc is still around
02:09:15 <CADD> exactly. its not like a spider, but more of a knowledge base.
02:10:15 <CADD> but what im trying to wrestle with is appeal to a general audience.
02:11:37 <CADD> or more generally, how you would interact with the system. so would you be presented with information that affirms or refutes your collection of symbolic expressions.
02:12:54 <CADD> so say you decide to claim that "obama is not the president". it would display the fact that you did, and the cout of times that that symbol has been affirmed and possibly a list of the people that publically affirm that symbol
02:13:38 <CADD> so now you have the affirmation of the symbol that obama is NOT the president. so obviously there will be magnitued more people affirming that he is the president
02:14:18 <CADD> so there is a shared truth value associated with him being the president. say 99% say he is and 1% say he isnt.
02:14:38 <CADD> so thats boring
02:15:22 <CADD> or well, it will be interesting what comes out of it, but in essence its just a massive collection of abstract representations of fact
02:15:42 <CADD> so now how do you present this, or more specifically what?
02:16:48 <CADD> obviously there are some simple things, like creating a profile of the user. and finding individuals that have said similar things, and then present things that these similar individuals have said
02:17:31 <CADD> so essentially it would be similar to "collaborative filtering".
02:18:13 <CADD> but the problem with systems like those is that you are only shown things that agree with your worldview.
02:20:01 <CADD> anyway, like i was saying. this is kind of a pie in the sky idea..
02:20:38 <CADD> but i think its on a thread that we have been attempting to follow for a long time..
02:21:02 <CADD> i mean OWL, RDF and all those technologies failed hardcore
02:21:38 <CADD> and i want to see how to make that an integral part of the general publics experience of the internet.
02:22:11 <CADD> </hand-wavy-rant>
02:23:01 <Gracenotes> the best successes that have been had so far with human-like learning are neural nets
02:23:20 <Gracenotes> in particular, semisupervised deep learning architectures
02:24:24 <CADD> yeah, ive heard similiar things too. i have some experience with NN, they are really interesting. sadly they like all models still suffer from the curse of dimensionality
02:24:49 <CADD> have you heard about hierarchical temporal models?
02:25:04 <CADD> they are really interesting for "streaming" sources of data
02:25:42 <Gracenotes> yes, that's mainly where unsupervised pretraining makes NNs amazing
02:25:42 <CADD> and can pic out not just static patterns, but temporal ones as well. its very interesting.
02:26:43 <Gracenotes> and I've seen interesting applications of NNs embedded in Bayes nets/fields
02:27:06 <CADD> do you have any links?
02:27:39 <Gracenotes> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdIURAu1-aU
02:28:08 <Gracenotes> hm, there might be an updated version of this recently released... /me will have to watch it
02:28:15 <CADD> ive see that video
02:28:26 <CADD> hmm, its been a while though..
02:28:31 <CADD> ill have to rewatch it
02:28:49 <CADD> yeah, i think the HTM is also mentioned in a google tech talk
02:29:20 <CADD> http://youtu.be/48r-IeYOvG4
02:34:38 -!- oerjan has set topic: 22nd IOCCC opens August 1 http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey!: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric & http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
02:34:53 -!- oerjan has set topic: 22nd IOCCC opens August 1: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey!: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric & http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
02:39:39 <Bike> A description of the Unicode character set, written in the Georgian language, phonetically transcribed into mirror-reversed Devanagari script. Footnotes to the text are in Cree (phonetically transcribed in Kannada script), Occitan (transcribed in Pitman shorthand), Xhosa (transcribed into a variant of Braille normally used for Russian), Pennsylvania German (transcribed in Glagolitic script), Miqmaq hieroglyphs, an unidentified language transcr
02:40:13 <oerjan> an unidentified language transcr
02:41:30 <oerjan> i find it somewhat unlikely they could get together enough speakers to make that with any better than google translate quality
02:41:53 <oerjan> also, i doubt google translate does cree.
02:47:48 <zzo38> Bike: How are they going to do that?
02:49:06 <zzo38> I don't know; I hoped you know.
02:50:05 <oerjan> Bike: when i say say "an unidentified language transcr" it's suppose to be a hint to you that your message got cut off, hth
02:51:24 <Bike> I didn't think it was important, but "ibed into vertical Manchu script, and several unidentified scripts."
02:54:41 <oerjan> WELL HOW CAN WE KNOW IT'S UNIMPORTANT IF YOU DON'T PASTE IT HTH
02:55:23 <Bike> You can't, but I can.
02:55:49 <zzo38> Or, at least, you can believe it to be unimportant to you.
02:56:27 <oerjan> THIS IS A FLAGRANT VIOLATION OF MY CONSTITUENT RIGHTS HTH
02:58:51 <Gracenotes> help Amazon is recommending Hello Kitty things to me
02:59:33 <oerjan> are there Hello Kitty College Living Essentials
03:05:19 <zzo38> Do you know about Z-machine? The new version of my Z-machine assembler is now released.
03:06:14 <zzo38> Although I want to make up a SSA intermediate language for use with Z-machine, and some Haskell library for making Z-machine files.
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03:32:15 <doesthiswork> if you add reflection does it become an S-machine?
03:34:32 * oerjan swats doesthiswork -----###
03:35:19 <zzo38> doesthiswork: I have never heard of such a thing.
03:38:17 <doesthiswork> zzo38: it was just a bad joke. When you look at Z in the mirror it looks like S
03:42:46 <oerjan> doesthiswork has this special curve-smoothing mirror
03:43:56 <kmc> rip hexagons
03:44:03 <kmc> hexagonal wang tiles would be cool tho
03:44:14 <kmc> <Sgeo> I am addicted to Listerine PocketPak strips
03:51:27 <doesthiswork> if not then I don't know why it suggests hello kitty college things.
03:52:08 <Gracenotes> did you know there are Hello Kitty spoon sets?
03:52:35 <Bike> are they good?
03:53:04 <doesthiswork> yes I did, there are hello kitty every thing. Sanrio milks their cash cow for all she's worth
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03:56:50 <zzo38> doesthiswork: It isn't quite "S".
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04:08:01 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, see if you can make hexagonal wang tiles too. And other shapes.
04:11:10 <zzo38> Could ordinary wang tiles be made into just shapes (no colors) (like puzzle pieces)? Such as different shape for each color (according to the direction, too) and the shapes are made so it also won't fit if it is rotated or flipped.
04:14:08 <doesthiswork> sorry for the short answer but it takes longer to describe than to imagine
04:15:37 <oerjan> zzo38: one way is to code matchingness as having corresponding zigzag patterns on their bordering edges
04:16:32 <oerjan> you can encode 0 as /\ and 1 as __ say
04:17:08 <oerjan> and \/ for the matching one
04:18:14 <oerjan> and apart for the zigzag patterns the rest can still be squares and whatever
04:22:02 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes those are the kind of things I was thinking of
04:22:46 <zzo38> Although you use a different set of patterns for each edge, such that the opposite edges will fit together though, I think.
04:24:14 <oerjan> well yes that's what i mean
04:25:14 <doesthiswork> it helps if you have asymmetrical teeth, but those are hard to show in text.
04:25:48 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Yes I thought of that too.
04:26:21 <oerjan> hm right you could do that, although i was thinking you could just fix the direction by having /\ on one end and __ on the other. oh hm __ may not be the best choice.
04:27:37 <doesthiswork> Yes, the nice thing about trinary is it has a direction
04:27:40 <oerjan> oh well that's a small detail.
04:28:29 <Jafet> Cut out the outline of "GREEN" along the edge
04:29:04 <Jafet> And "TEAL" and "COSMIC LATTE" (you may need a fine craft knife for this one)
04:30:08 <oerjan> ...that _is_ brilliant :P
04:38:17 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/a81cc3de8df6eab463ac666079105112/tumblr_mqmppwmOZA1qjr3c0o4_250.jpg
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05:35:47 <doesthiswork> I want to make a board game that exercises skill at organizing things the same way you have to do for a program.
05:36:14 <zzo38> How would such a thing be made?
05:37:22 <doesthiswork> I don't know, my best idea so far is some puzzle peices that each turn you have to use to make a structure that satisfies that rule
05:39:37 <doesthiswork> because jigsaw puzzles have the dynamic of organizing pieces
05:39:55 <doesthiswork> but I'm having trouble thinking of the right sort of rules
05:42:15 <zzo38> I don't know either.
05:48:45 <doesthiswork> but also the necessity of organizing a program is only learned when you have to keep modifying it to match the changed plans
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06:05:05 <zzo38> Sometimes a program might be organized before it is put into the computer.
06:06:51 <Sgeo> Note to self: What I have been considering to be "Moonlight Sonata" is just the first part of Moonlight Sonata
06:17:48 <Bike_> fyi that's true of like every "classical" piece of music you know
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06:18:36 <Jafet> Anything is true of every classical piece of music you know
06:19:35 <zzo38> Classical music often has multiple parts; in what I have seen, if there are three parts, the first and third parts are with the same key but the second part may be of a different key, and often shorter, too.
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07:34:22 <zzo38> Once somebody made up a global enchantment card (for Magic: the Gathering) called "Nirvana" with the text "Goblins cannot reach Nirvana." I made up a meaning for this card, although it would hardly ever actually do anything.
07:36:38 <zzo38> If the Magic: the Gathering cards programming language I had the idea of, would exist and would be able to treat "reach" as a verb, then if you enter it as "Goblin=s cannot reach ~" then it might be able to understand it, too.
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08:00:35 * Sgeo wonders what zzo38's opinion of Magic the Gathering Online is
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08:30:13 <fizzie> Taneb: Feeling bright and happy and sober there, I guess?
08:30:25 <Taneb> Barely hung over at all
08:31:06 <Taneb> I think last night I assumed I'd have forgotten a lot more
08:31:29 <Taneb> So I left myself a bunch of notes
08:31:35 <Taneb> But I remember what I wrote on the notes
08:33:26 <Taneb> Also I met someone called Panda
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08:46:40 <kmc> Sgeo: what about the Magic: The Gathering Online eXchange
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08:47:35 <HackEgo> iamfishhead1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:51:11 <Fiora> Taneb: good meowrning?
08:51:25 <Taneb> Better than I expected
08:55:57 <Fiora> I fell asleep for a nap at 7 and then suddenly it was 2
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09:04:48 <Taneb> I think that means you had 5 more hours of sleep than me :(
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09:17:23 <kmc> glad you're feeling well Taneb :)
09:18:09 <kmc> hi shachaf
09:18:20 <Taneb> I hope my friends are all okay
09:23:51 <Fiora> wow, apparently one of the categories for the UK censorship thing is "esoteric material" they're onto us ;_;
09:24:36 <shachaf> as long as hexham doesn't start censoring things too
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11:14:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, clang-analyzer actually found a bug, if you used a mode less than zero or larger than 5 (invalid values) to FILE O it would access uninitialized memory when trying to clean up the already allocated file handle. Heh
11:14:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, In total it found 11 items, one of them has a path length of 33 and is inside the genx library. Trying to figure out what is going on there now.
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11:34:58 <Deewiant> The analyzer always gives me a dozen "uninitialized argument value" errors that I don't care about :-/
11:52:24 <elliott> Fiora: did you see this quote about the "on-by-default" filters I pasted in here a few days ago?
11:52:27 <elliott> "They have negotiated with the government and agreed on a system called "Active Choice +" in which customers opt in for filters [...] The leaked letter [...] suggests: "Without changing what you will be offering (ie active-choice +), the prime minister would like to be able to refer to your solutions [as] 'default-on'"."
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12:14:43 <Vorpal> Deewiant, hm, not much of that for me. I have two false positives in the funge space write-to-file-in-text-mode code, where the analyzer appears to simply fail at basic arithmetics.
12:16:14 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and I have one real bug (but that doesn't affect me) in the getline-code I took from gnulib or glibc or some such, where it can leak memory if a realloc to grow a buffer fails. But that doesn't affect me since I always provide an already allocated buffer I believe
12:16:45 <Deewiant> You can add an assert to make the analyzer shut up about stuff like that
12:16:58 <Vorpal> Deewiant, tried, but no luck currently
12:17:10 <Vorpal> #ifdef __clang_analyzer__
12:17:10 <Vorpal> 1065assert(offset->x < maxx);
12:17:10 <Vorpal> 1066assert(lastspace == maxx - offset->x);
12:17:10 <Vorpal> 1068for (funge_cell x = offset->x; x < maxx; x++) {
12:17:17 <Vorpal> Even with that it doesn't see that loop as taken
12:17:43 <Vorpal> Deewiant, oh that, right, possibly
12:19:16 <Deewiant> According to http://clang-analyzer.llvm.org/faq.html#use_assert that first assert should work for that but oh well
12:19:19 <Vorpal> Deewiant, because those asserts are inside a loop, and since they were loop invariant I first put them outside the outermost loop, but since that didn't help I tried putting them inside instead
12:19:38 <Vorpal> and yes I agree, the first one should work
12:20:21 <Deewiant> What does it matter if they're inside a loop, do you leave asserts in release builds or something
12:20:48 <Vorpal> Deewiant, In RelWithDebInfo builds, but not in full Release no
12:20:55 <Vorpal> anyway they didn't work for the analyzer anyway
12:21:10 <Vorpal> So meh, giving up on trying to tell it about the false positives
12:21:26 <Vorpal> I fixed all the real issues anyway, don't really care about there being 3 false positives in the code.
12:22:40 <Vorpal> Deewiant, where did you get those uninit arg value errors from btw?
12:23:04 <Vorpal> I mean, some sort of example code or such
12:23:15 <Deewiant> They're not false positives, I just don't care about them
12:23:22 <Deewiant> Example code: int x; f(x); :-P
12:23:35 <Vorpal> Well, that doesn't look well defined to me, unless f is a macro
12:23:55 <Deewiant> AFAICT it shouldn't matter as long as f doesn't read it
12:24:12 <Vorpal> Deewiant, pretty sure it isn't well defined to call with an uninitialized l-value, since the calling convention would end up reading it and putting it in a register or such
12:24:18 <Vorpal> you could pass a pointer to x though
12:24:44 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I'm not 100% certain though
12:24:58 <Deewiant> It's possible, I haven't found anything specific in the standard though
12:25:22 <elliott> I just realised what I should write shiro 2 in!
12:25:23 <Vorpal> Deewiant, anyway why pass the argument if f doesn't need it anyway?
12:25:31 <elliott> that way i can beat Deewiant and still be a hipster
12:25:37 <Vorpal> elliott, how far did you get with shiro 1 anyway?
12:26:09 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Basically to simplify the code since it needs it sometimes
12:26:15 <elliott> Vorpal: um, it passed pure mycology except for like one annoying file IO technicality I didn't want to fix, and implemented like 15-20 fingerprints.
12:26:24 <elliott> with varying degrees of Mycology-passingness, but fairly good on the whole
12:26:32 <elliott> it was missing a couple of fingerprints to run fungot iirc
12:26:32 <fungot> elliott: " fnord", ou " fnord" seems to not parse them well.
12:27:12 <Vorpal> elliott, what about the stuff that mycology doesn't test? Like text mode for o.
12:27:15 <elliott> Deewiant: is mushspace at the point where you don't really want to compete with it with a GC yet :p
12:27:23 <elliott> Vorpal: that was probably broken
12:27:40 <Vorpal> elliott, quite so, text mode o especially
12:27:50 <Vorpal> since you need to strip trailing ws from the end of each line
12:28:07 <Deewiant> elliott: Depends on your GC? I dunno :-P
12:28:43 <Vorpal> Though I just thought of a more efficient way to do it... Except it will be even more complicated to write the code for.
12:29:59 <Vorpal> What does a GC have to do with mushspace anyway?
12:35:49 <Vorpal> Deewiant, are you using a GC?
12:36:30 <Deewiant> OK, I think foo x; f(x) is unspecified, but if x is a partially initialized struct I think it's still fine, hmm
12:36:49 <Vorpal> Makes sense since you said you were aiming for performance iirc
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12:37:12 <elliott> how does Vorpal understand how a GC could harm performance when talking to Deewiant but not when talking to me??????
12:39:14 <Vorpal> elliott, the initial cause was some parsing confusion on "want to compete with it with a GC". I first parsed that as him competing with it + a GC against something.
12:58:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: How do you make a partially initialized struct?
12:59:26 <fizzie> Uninitialized, and set a couple of members, I guess.
13:00:41 <Deewiant> Or initialize it with { .foo = bar }
13:00:48 <fizzie> That's not partially initialized.
13:01:00 <Deewiant> Well clang's analyzer claims it is
13:01:12 <fizzie> It's talking out of its ass, then.
13:01:15 <fizzie> "If there are fewer initializers in a brace-enclosed list than there are elements or members of an aggregate -- the remainder of the aggregate shall be initialized implicitly the same as objects that have static storage duration."
13:02:58 <Deewiant> Oh whoops, it's actually referring to a struct member of the struct, my bad
13:05:03 <fizzie> Actually, I guess the version stating almost the same thing few paragraphs up, "-- all subobjects that are not initialized explicitly shall be initialized implicitly the same as --", is more relevant.
13:05:23 <fizzie> Good thing that's there, otherwise presumably struct { int a, b; } f = { .a = 42, .a = 69 }; would leave b uninitialized.
13:13:14 <Deewiant> Actually this thing just seems to be confused
13:15:34 <fizzie> Also I concur with the foo x; f(x) being okay for a partially uninitialized struct -- "the value of struct or union object is never a trap representation, even though the value of a member of the structure or union may be a trap representation" -- and apparently so does the committee in DR222: http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/dr_222.htm
13:16:33 <Deewiant> Yes, I was reading C11 which has those DR222 changes
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15:01:11 <Vorpal> what exactly is a trap representation?
15:01:48 <Deewiant> Vorpal: "an object representation that need not represent a value of the object type"
15:04:40 <Vorpal> Deewiant, would null be considered one of those?
15:04:47 <Fiora> I think null is sort of a trap representation?
15:04:55 <Fiora> I wonder if NaN counts too.
15:05:17 <Deewiant> No, null is a valid value that a pointer can have, and likewise NaN for floats
15:05:32 <Vorpal> Deewiant, So on common systems there are no trap representations?
15:05:43 <Deewiant> Certain object representations need not represent a value of the object type. If the stored value of an object has such a representation and is read by an lvalue expression that does not have character type, the behavior is undefined. If such a representation is produced by a side effect that modifies all or any part of the object by an lvalue expression that does not have character type, the behavior is
15:05:45 <Deewiant> undefined. Such a representation is called a trap representation.
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15:06:36 <Deewiant> Vorpal: You can set the FPU to trap on some stuff but I wouldn't consider that part of this
15:07:33 <Vorpal> So what platforms do have it hm?
15:07:59 <Fiora> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6725809/trap-representation oh, huh, this sems to explain some of it (?)
15:09:37 <Fiora> I guess one example might be "negative 0" in a ones' complement number format?
15:10:45 <elliott> yeah the SO answer gives that as an example
15:11:06 <Deewiant> Evidently signalling NaNs remain undefined in C11 so those count
15:13:26 <Deewiant> "Some combinations of padding bits might generate trap representations, for example, if one padding bit is a parity bit. Regardless, no arithmetic operation on valid values can generate a trap representation other than as part of an exceptional condition such as an overflow, and this cannot occur with unsigned types."
15:18:31 <Deewiant> "An integer may be converted to any pointer type. Except as previously specified, the result is implementation-defined, might not be correctly aligned, might not point to an entity of the referenced type, and might be a trap representation."
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18:08:59 <tswett> Hm. They make a distinction between undefined behavior and unspecified behavior.
18:09:20 <Fiora> I think "unspecified" means "something predictable happens, but it could be platform-dependent"?
18:09:26 <tswett> So undefined behavior means "the implementation is allowed to do literally anything when this happens".
18:09:33 <Fiora> while undefined means "this should never happen, code is wrong if it does this, demons could shoot out your nose"?
18:09:44 <Fiora> so the latter is "the compiler can assume this doesn't happen"?
18:09:58 <tswett> And unspecified behavior means "the implementation has some leeway in choosing what the result is when this happens".
18:10:07 <Fiora> that sounds right.
18:13:23 <Deewiant> There's undefined behaviour, unspecified behaviour, and implementation-defined behaviour
18:13:46 <elliott> what's the difference between unspecified and implementation-defined?
18:14:28 <Deewiant> Undefined = anything can happen; unspecified = there are many specified alternatives but which one happens at any given time can vary
18:15:36 <Deewiant> "use of an unspecified value, or other behavior where this International Standard provides two or more possibilities and imposes no further requirements on which is chosen in any instance"
18:16:07 <Deewiant> (unspecified value = "valid value of the relevant type where this International Standard imposes no requirements on which value is chosen in any instance")
18:16:21 <Deewiant> (implementation-defined value = "unspecified value where each implementation documents how the choice is made")
18:17:10 <tswett> So, my lazy expression reducer is pretty inefficient, I guess.
18:17:28 <elliott> so implementation-defined = unspecified but it has to be consistent within an implementation?
18:17:43 <tswett> In that it can potentially traverse the entire expression every time a reduction step is performed.
18:17:53 <Bike> unspecified by the standard, specified by the implementation
18:18:23 <Deewiant> elliott: Depends on what you mean by consistent, I guess; it has to be documented
18:18:32 <Bike> probably hard to enforce though :p
18:18:41 <Deewiant> So it could still be e.g. selection by /dev/random
18:18:53 <elliott> Deewiant: okay so it is just a documentation requirement and nothing more
18:19:12 <Deewiant> "unspecified behavior where each implementation documents how the choice is made"
18:19:38 <tswett> The intelligent way to do this would probably be to mark each sub-expression as to whether it's already been evaluated or not.
18:19:42 <Deewiant> It's possible that there are further consistency requirements for specific things, I guess
18:19:44 <Bike> http://www.jwz.org/images/gm.gif cow
18:21:18 <tswett> That sure is a lot of agitation.
18:22:04 <tswett> If that cow were real, would it really slosh that much?
18:22:36 <tswett> I'm trying to figure out whether they did a good job with subsurface scattering or not.
18:23:41 <ion> Perfect cube tutorial http://i.imgur.com/fctEUfv.gif
18:29:02 <ion> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2010618696/dkss-reality-death-maze
18:30:52 <elliott> someone pledged over $1,000 on that.
18:34:13 <Bike> Could be the people funding their own kickstarter to make it look like it's supporte.
18:35:00 <ion> Well, most of it.
18:35:28 <Bike> "Help us support the Portal! Please fund DKS's Reality Death Maze to help us open our dimensional portal." er
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19:04:02 <Taneb> Are all beginnings non-sequiturs?
19:04:44 <olsner> sounds like a question for fungot
19:04:44 <fungot> olsner: well there. fight about whether to play keen or watch demos. he didn't tell anything ( they don't)
19:16:15 <tswett> Having written a basic proto-Hylisk interpreter, suddenly I have no desire to use it.
19:16:30 <Sgeo> Oh hey Edward Kmett reads HPMOR
19:29:31 <Taneb> Harry Potter: Man on Rhea?
19:32:15 <Sgeo> Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
19:34:10 <doesthiswork> because among other things genetics is a lot more interesting than presented there
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20:38:51 <Taneb> Tracking the #haskell tag on Tumblr may not have been the best idea
20:38:59 <Taneb> It's one of the most multi-purpose tags there is
20:39:22 <Taneb> And half of the stuff that is the programming language is just links to things I've already seen
20:40:09 <fizzie> Well. The UI is real clunky, the code may be buggy, half of the features are missing and the compositing is all wrong, but here it is anyway: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_presence.html
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20:41:56 <Taneb> kallisti's is unusual
20:42:12 <doesthiswork> it does show different things than the weekly and hourly graphs did
20:43:40 <doesthiswork> lambdabot doesn't have much of an hourly schedule either.
20:47:54 <doesthiswork> We can calculate the mutual information between two nicks to see how similar their sleep schedules are
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20:49:33 <doesthiswork> although kullback-divergance might be more fitting
20:49:47 <elliott> fizzie: it seems I lost my sleep schedule in 2009.
20:50:25 <ion> FWIW, i also like git more. https://twitter.com/molovo/status/360346792602259456
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20:51:20 <fizzie> I don't know offhand how to make SVG's simple alpha compositing do the operation I wanted, which was to blend colors with uniform weights where they overlap. The current scheme of setting layer opacities to 1, 1/2, 1/3, ... from bottom to top does the right thing if there's a pixel in all layers, but it dims the non-bottom layers where they composit with the black background. Filter effects ...
20:51:26 <fizzie> ... could probably do it, though.
20:54:04 <Taneb> I think I remember that!
20:54:57 <elliott> MKRY on the list of nicks. :/
20:55:49 <Taneb> Actually, I've used the name "Taneb" since at least October 2007
20:55:51 <ion> Sleep schedule? What’s that?
20:56:04 <Taneb> I think I first used it July 2007
20:56:39 <ion> What makes you think you are an irc bot ion?
20:57:29 <olsner> I seem to do a lot of breakfast irc between about 9 and 11
20:58:10 <fizzie> Note that there's a curious singular Taneb dot somewhere in September 2010.
20:59:18 <Taneb> The weird thing is, I remember doing that, but I remember doing that in 2011
20:59:57 <ion> I can’t place p. much anything to a specific year, my sense of time is horrible.
21:01:17 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2010-09-06#204051Taneb it seems that when Taneb appeared in 2010, I was... doing plots.
21:01:57 <Taneb> It definitely sounds like me
21:03:01 <Taneb> Maybe it was a time-traveller impersonating me
21:03:06 <Taneb> But for what purpose?
21:03:17 <Taneb> Obviously, to save the space-time continuum!
21:03:20 <olsner> fizzie: is Taneb and atriq merged in that graph?
21:04:14 <Taneb> olsner, I believe they are
21:05:34 <olsner> oh, I thought taneb was rot13 of atriq for some reason
21:05:42 <Taneb> My initials were ALMOST N. G. E. v. D
21:05:59 <Taneb> But my parents thought that was too long and dropped the E (which stood for Eliot)
21:06:20 <fizzie> olsner: 'Taneb': ['Taneb', 'Ngevd', 'atriq'],
21:06:42 <Taneb> Shouldn't CakeProphet and kallisti be merged? Or am I misremembering?
21:08:01 <fizzie> Taneb: I think that was a merging I was supposed to do but couldn't be bothered rerunning the statistics-collection system on the entire logs. (Don't have a merging tool for them.)
21:08:39 <fizzie> I'll get it next time.
21:09:18 <Taneb> Huh, I've been active in the channel for about as long as shachaf
21:12:09 <fizzie> And your schedules are pretty much complementary. Are you... are you shachaf?
21:12:54 <Taneb> And I read Homestuck and won't read OotS and he reads OotS and won't read Homestuck!
21:13:42 <fizzie> When comparing two things, thanks to the crummy blending, setting the first to red and the second (dimmed one) to turquoise seems to be a reasonably good pair. (I'll fix it properly at some point.)
21:15:04 <fizzie> (Though sadly the layers aren't always in the order specified.)
21:17:37 <shachaf> I can confirm that I am Taneb.
21:18:18 <Taneb> More evidence that shachaf and I are one and the same:
21:18:23 <Taneb> shachaf is not a rabbi
21:18:26 <Taneb> As far as I am aware
21:18:33 <Taneb> shachaf, are you a rabbi?
21:18:45 <shachaf> Have we ever been seen in the same IRC channel together?
21:19:08 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards. (see also: d-modules)
21:19:27 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
21:19:36 -!- CADD has joined.
21:19:59 <HackEgo> Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
21:20:07 <Taneb> `? differential operators
21:20:09 <HackEgo> differential operators? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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21:58:59 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:02:05 * tswett ponders what a ~list is.
22:02:13 <tswett> I.e., what's the comonad corresponding to the list monad?
22:03:17 <tswett> Looks like it's... something that consumes an arbitrary number of items and then exits.
22:03:55 <elliott> it's not a comonad in Hask
22:04:01 <elliott> like shachaf said some days ago
22:04:09 -!- upgrayeddd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:04:25 <elliott> the comonad you get is in the "other category" of the adjunction that gives you a monad
22:04:42 <tswett> Right, it's that other category.
22:04:43 <elliott> State/Store is just a "happy coincidence" because the two functors involved are endofunctors on Hask
22:05:11 <elliott> I forget what duplicate is but I recall it's boring
22:05:47 <tswett> Mon must be one of those... closed symmetric what-have-yous.
22:06:24 <tswett> Closed symmetric monoidal categories.
22:06:40 <elliott> Mon has monoid homomorphisms as morphisms
22:08:18 <tswett> So a monoidal category is one with a "tensor product" bifunctor which is associative with identity up to natural isomorphism.
22:08:52 <tswett> And it seems like the "usual tensor product" is just the cartesian product or something?
22:09:18 <elliott> also in particular, a ~list is just a list.
22:09:34 <elliott> with a monoidal element type, if you insist.
22:09:58 <tswett> So then now a closed monoidal category is one that has that currying thing.
22:10:39 <tswett> And a *symmetric* monoidal category is, uh...
22:12:58 <tswett> Apparently a braided monoidal category is one which is commutative and also satisfies some weird hexagon thing.
22:13:34 <tswett> Mm, not quite commutative?
22:15:13 <tswett> A symmetric monoidal category is one that actually is commutative?
22:17:45 <tswett> Okay, so... yeah, what are the component functors of the list monad?
22:18:18 <tswett> They take Set to Mon and back to Set, aye? So, the free functor (is... is that a thing?) followed by the forgetful functor?
22:19:57 <elliott> I worked it out with shachaf once.
22:19:57 <tswett> The free monoid functor?
22:20:01 <elliott> unfortunately the comonad is boring.
22:20:21 <elliott> but I don't remember the exact details...
22:20:34 <tswett> Yeah, it looks like the comonad also pretty much makes lists, doesn't it?
22:20:57 <tswett> A co-list of monoidal things is pretty much just a list of monoidal things.
22:22:40 <tswett> "Extract" just multiplies all the elements together. And "extend", that's the w a -> w (w a) thing, right?
22:22:49 -!- copumpkin has joined.
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22:24:02 <tswett> Oh, what's a monoid. How about the monoid of... things you can do with a pile of string.
22:24:04 <tswett> That's a lovely monoid.
22:24:33 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:24:42 <tswett> So then a Colist StringThing is a list of things you can do with a pile of string. "extract"ing that concatenates all those things together.
22:24:51 <tswett> I guess the things you can do with a pile of string actually form a category, not a monoid.
22:26:54 <tswett> And "extend", what's that supposed to do?
22:28:44 <tswett> Anyway, so far, this seems completely unrelated to the linear logic dual of List I've come up with.
22:29:00 <tswett> Which is: ~List a = Bottom & (a -o ~List a)
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22:32:19 <tswett> Hum. In a closed monoidal category, must there exist a bifunctor & such that there's a natural transformation from A & B to A, and from A & B to B?
22:33:37 <tswett> Rather, in a symmetric monoidal category, must there be such and such?
22:35:42 <tswett> Rather, a closed symmetric monoidal category.
22:35:58 <tswett> And, rather, must there exist product objects?
22:43:44 <Bike> "wanted to ask u guys - Markov Chans with lotto Numbers...good idea?"
22:55:08 <tswett> Hmm. The category of quantum state spaces.
22:55:59 <tswett> Let's say this. Quantum state spaces where every state is required to be a mixture of finitely many pure states.
22:56:17 <tswett> I'm not actually communicating right now, am I; I'm just talking to myself out loud.
22:58:26 <tswett> Let's be fun and drop the mixture of finitely many whatever.
22:59:02 <tswett> Nah, let's forget about the whole thing.
23:01:49 <tswett> Oh, here's what a ~list is in linear typing. It's actually quite simple.
23:02:00 <tswett> It's an object that, given an arbitrary length, gives you a list of that length.
23:05:44 <tswett> Seems obvious in retrospect.
23:07:06 <Bike> hey tswett, what's your favorite color? Does she know?
23:07:33 <tswett> You don't seem to be giving me the context necessary to understand your questions.
23:08:44 <Bike> 64133,918181,262626,0194823,753957192719394739109375728,281917466
23:11:24 <Bike> That's not a color.
23:13:01 <tswett> A is the answer to the greater surrounding question.
23:16:32 <tswett> Though it's not meant to be a useful answer. It's more like a proof that all of the prerequisites for answering the greater surrounding question have been satisfied.
23:34:38 <oerjan> tswett: are you deep thought
23:45:01 <Sgeo> What candies exist that are as deliciously minty as Listerine strips?
23:48:44 <shachaf> mint candy flavor = the worst hth
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23:54:07 <Sgeo> Listerine strips taste so good
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00:19:26 <Gracenotes> for the hell of it, I decided to get macademia nuts
00:20:35 <Sgeo> "You do realize this crap contains aspartame right?
00:20:35 <Sgeo> I think I'll stick to the ones without chemicals"
00:24:08 <Gracenotes> sugar-free candy usually has erythritol. or, slightly worse, maltitol or sorbitol. or, worst, aspartame.
00:24:35 <Sgeo> How about chemical-free candy?
00:24:46 <Sgeo> Also, these things that I'm addicted to aren't considered candy I think
00:26:11 <Gracenotes> everything is candy. cough drops are candy.
00:27:01 <Gracenotes> Yes, they have other purposes, but they're more than just a spoonful of sugar.
00:27:18 <Gracenotes> (unless you seek out the kinds that are less fun to eat)
00:31:40 <Sgeo> But too much of candy-like non candy things could presumably be more harmful than too much candy
00:31:47 <Sgeo> Too many vitamins is bad, for example
00:34:52 <Gracenotes> yeah, perhaps, and ideally no one should need to take vitamins (unless they have a nutritional impairment, like a thyroid issue or veganism)
00:35:26 <Gracenotes> Most things that people buy have been very heavily engineered to be palatable, though. People don't realize that.
00:37:12 <Sgeo> But I'm worried about eating too many of these Listerine strips
00:37:15 <pikhq_> Turns out our tastebuds aren't actually designed to tell us whether something's good for us or not.
00:37:54 <Sgeo> What I quoted I was more facepalming at the 'ones without chemicals' thing
00:38:21 <Gracenotes> assuming a lack of agriculture and domesticated anything
00:38:25 <pikhq_> Which is to say, things that where good for us way back when.
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00:39:02 <pikhq_> They don't adapt to what we need right now, they're adapted to survival in an environment where the really tasty foodstuffs are also rare.
00:39:23 <pikhq_> And you'd actually want to pig out on, say, that bison you just killed.
00:40:31 <Gracenotes> evolution really screwed up, making an organism that was superb at changing the environment around it without regard for externalities.
00:41:19 <Gracenotes> put another way, it did its job too well.
00:41:19 <Sgeo> Isn't that inevitable though when selecting based on X' that doesn't quite match the ideal X?
00:41:33 <Sgeo> bad incentives etc
00:41:48 <pikhq_> You get what you optimize for, not what you want.
00:44:29 <Gracenotes> Sgeo: you should limit yourself to 3 strips a day. put all of your energy into allocating those strips.
00:44:53 <Gracenotes> try to put it into an existing habit, such as brushing your teeth
00:45:25 <Gracenotes> oh, and if you fuck up, self-flagellate. 30 times, each side of the back. that's the most important part.
00:45:56 <Gracenotes> I know, I know, a lot of people say "But I don't want to scar my skin!" blah blah blah
00:46:36 <Gracenotes> ...yeah, fine, last two lines optional. >.>
00:51:23 <Sgeo> I already had two more since then
00:51:29 <Sgeo> I need a candy to substitute for ir
00:54:02 <Gracenotes> I also recommend not eating sweet things or refined grains at all
00:57:15 <Sgeo> Assuming that mints will taste like this wonderful taste
01:02:02 <Sgeo> I get the impression that a lot would be bad, but more like 24 all at once or something
01:03:48 <Sgeo> Although my body does seem to be treating it as food and lowering my hunger :(
01:10:47 <Gracenotes> Sgeo: you will not stay hungry for long tho
01:11:49 <Sgeo> Gracenotes: er
01:12:00 <Sgeo> I need to _be_ hungry, these things are stopping me from being hungry
01:12:08 <oerjan> "After Eights are now sold across Europe and North America, where they are kosher certified by the Orthodox Union, and one billion After Eight mints are made annually."
01:13:39 <oerjan> Sgeo: why do you need to be hungry, and can't you just eat something real
01:13:52 <Sgeo> Because if I'm not hungry, I won't eat
01:14:38 <Gracenotes> sugar and refined grains make you less satiated than whole foods like fruits, vegetables, and meats hth
01:15:18 <Sgeo> Eat more sugary snacks and refined grains. Got it.
01:16:05 * pikhq_ declares this to have been a damnable week
01:16:30 <oerjan> Sgeo: i recall something about sugary drinks not triggering the body's satiation properly, unlike sugary food
01:17:03 * Sgeo checks if ais523 is here on pikhq_'s behalf
01:17:18 <Gracenotes> I don't think sugary food does either, compared to non-sugary food
01:17:29 <oerjan> it's ok the week doesn't have a soul than can go to hell hth
01:22:04 <Sgeo> Pretty sure http://www.scrapbooksthatteach.com/files/2012/12/father-time.gif disagrees
01:25:40 <oerjan> what they changed the recipe in for after eights in 2007
01:25:50 * oerjan is not quite sure if he's tasted them since
01:32:18 <oerjan> "Listerine did not make mouthwash as much as it made halitosis."
01:32:35 <oerjan> i'm not quite sure this is candy Sgeo
01:33:09 <Sgeo> I'm not drinking liquid mouthwash
01:33:32 <Sgeo> I'm dissolving in my mouths strips of presumably a different substance that is somewhat safer to swallow
01:35:16 <oerjan> "For a short time, beginning in 1927, the Lambert Pharmaceutical Company even marketed Listerine Cigarettes."
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02:33:35 <tswett> Is eating sugary snacks and refined grains actually a good idea when one is underweight?
02:33:49 <tswett> It's a bad idea when you're overweight, but that doesn't make it a good idea when you're underweight.
02:34:50 <tswett> Sgeo: do you think you'd be more likely to eat better if you had unlimited access to every type of food, already prepared?
02:35:27 <tswett> I'm sure that I would. More veggies, less candy.
02:37:29 <zzo38> Can you eat other things, such as your own blood?
02:39:52 <oerjan> eating your own blood is unlikely to gain weight hth
02:41:22 <tswett> Unless the reason you haven't been gaining weight is that you've been bleeding on a regular basis.
02:42:15 <Bike> my blood's more maple-y
02:45:33 <zzo38> I suppose you won't gain weight, but do you like to eat your own blood anyways?
02:45:48 <Gracenotes> tswett: imo it's a good way to become sink your metabolism and become overweight later in life
02:48:31 <tswett> Delete everything up to the previous x character.
02:54:03 <Sgeo> tswett: possibly
02:54:19 <Sgeo> I'd certainly be more likely to eat more often
02:54:38 <tswett> Are there any reasonably healthy foods that you enjoy eating?
02:59:08 <Gracenotes> bananas are pretty healthy, although they are actually incredibly sweet.
02:59:25 <Gracenotes> they just don't taste it because of, well, they have banana taste and texture.
02:59:26 <tswett> I guess bananas are pretty good, yeah.
03:00:40 <Sgeo> Whenever I would talk about my issues to teachers in highschool, they suggested pizza
03:00:47 <Sgeo> Don't know if that counts for anything
03:03:05 <zzo38> Pizza is a bread with other stuff on it such as tomato and cheese and chess.
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03:27:03 <doesthiswork> if you're lactose tolerant it is possible to live healthily off of milk and potatoes.
03:28:21 <doesthiswork> and soybeans are one of the few crops I know of that is bred for nutritional content
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04:07:21 <tswett> So as everyone knows, one of the great problems of the world is that it's hard for a purely functional programming language to represent a cyclic data structure.
04:08:29 <tswett> And the reason for this is that in a purely functional programming language, you can't really have two separate pointers to a single mutable object.
04:10:52 <zzo38> There are a number of other things I also find it difficult to represent in Haskell, or in any other programming language, which makes it even more difficult.
04:11:09 <tswett> Not the sort of cyclic data structure I'm after.
04:12:06 <zzo38> Linear logic might help a bit, but it doesn't help everything.
04:12:15 <tswett> So here's an idea that you might use in a resource-conscious language.
04:12:54 <tswett> Have some type constructor... I have no idea what to call it, so let's call it Shoe.
04:13:51 <tswett> Given any object, you can turn it into a pair of Shoes. Given just one of the Shoes, you're allowed to borrow the object, but you have to put it back in order to get the Shoe back.
04:13:54 <tswett> Finally, you can destroy both Shoes to get the object back once and for all.
04:14:53 <tswett> Obvious problem 1: race conditions happen.
04:15:05 <doesthiswork> tswett: immutable cyclic data structures seem easy to create.
04:15:15 <tswett> Obvious problem 2: if you try to use both Shoes simultaneously, you'll deadlock.
04:15:29 <tswett> doesthiswork: true, but I'm thinking about mutable ones.
04:16:13 <zzo38> Could you make more stuff with the type system by adding a new kind of quantification?
04:19:50 <tswett> So the problem is that race conditions and deadlocks can happen if you have two pointers to the same object. Thus, pointers can't form an arbitrary graph; they have to form a tree.
04:20:24 <tswett> So what if we somehow make it so that the pointers form a tree *at any given time*, but the pointer structure can be changed to support all the deque operations in constant time?
04:20:48 <doesthiswork> are you not allowed to refer to things that haven't been fully defined yet?
04:21:00 <tswett> Recursive definitions are allowed.
04:21:48 <tswett> If we make it so that there exist "inactive pointers" which can't actually be used...
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04:23:42 <tswett> It would be perfectly easy to add deques as a primitive data type, but I want to figure out how to make it possible to actually implement them.
04:28:36 <tswett> Okay, here's another idea.
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04:29:49 <tswett> There are these things called Batons, which can be freely created. You can trade an object for a bunch of pointers to it, but all of its pointers must be associated with the same Baton. You can only access an object if you have both a pointer and the corresponding Baton.
04:30:23 <fizzie> I was under the impression that Data.Sequence was an amortized-O(1) deque. (But maybe that doesn't count given that the implementation is not at all "deque-ish".)
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04:31:21 <tswett> Perhaps it is, but I'm thinking about "real" O(1), not amortized.
04:32:04 <doesthiswork> darn it, my client left out half the conversation without telling me
04:33:08 <tswett> Yes, I feel like this will work.
04:34:19 <Bike> doesthiswork: we have nice logs
04:34:27 <tswett> You can create a Baton. Given an object and a Baton, you can give up the object to create a pointer to the object associated with the Baton.
04:34:49 <doesthiswork> bike: that's how i know that there were messages I didn't see
04:35:30 <tswett> Given a pointer, you can duplicate it; given two pointers to the same object with the same Baton, you can delete one. Given a pointer, you can give up the Baton to borrow the object; upon returning the object, you get back the Baton.
04:35:47 <tswett> Given the last remaining pointer to an object, and its Baton, you can destroy the pointer. And if a Baton has no pointers, you can destroy the Baton.
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04:37:04 <tswett> So it's like, the "real" pointer here is the Baton, and the Baton is the thing which has to be part of a tree. The "pointers" merely serve to select the pointee of the Baton.
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04:58:45 <HackEgo> olist 906: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
05:11:32 <Sgeo> I swear, I'm going to have to change my name to Rich Burlew so the things you say start making sense
05:13:17 <shachaf> Do you disagree that it's good?
05:14:31 <Sgeo> I disagree that I'm somehow responsible for it being good
05:14:59 <shachaf> Who said you were responsible?
05:15:35 <shachaf> You told me "hey, there's an update [which Rich Burlew wrote, presumably]!". I read the update. It was good. I commented to the person who told me.
05:18:11 <doesthiswork> rss readers notify you of a wide variety comics
05:18:36 <Sgeo> So do I! (If 2 counts as a wide variety)
05:18:52 <shachaf> doesthiswork: Hmm, good point.
05:19:14 <shachaf> You should hook up an RSS reader to some other comics (like supermegacomics.com) and tell me when they update.
05:20:53 <Sgeo> SMComics updates on a regular basis? Why do you need a human RSS reader?
05:21:09 <Sgeo> NOW UPDATING EVERY TUESDAY AND THURSDAY EVENING
05:21:30 <Sgeo> No idea what that is
05:21:35 <Bike> rice boy updates are easy to track
05:21:41 <shachaf> Sgeo: Well, it didn't update on Tue!
05:21:48 <shachaf> Hmm, someone told me to read Rice Boy once.
05:21:52 <shachaf> I'd forgotten. I guess I should read it.
05:22:25 <Sgeo> There's a reason I don't have lists for xkcd and Freefall
05:25:09 <Bike> god, it's crazy how much dahm's art's improved
05:33:27 <tswett> http://lpaste.net/91292 – batons, refined!
05:34:31 <tswett> A pointer really represents two things: a way of identifying an object, and a way of accessing it. This idea separates a pointer into two separate things: a "ticket" and a "coat check".
05:34:46 <tswett> A ticket is a means of identifying an object. Since it can't be used to identify the object, multiple tickets can exist for just one object.
05:35:04 <tswett> s/to identify/to access/
05:35:19 <tswett> And a coat check is the means of accessing the object. Since it can't be used to identify the object, multiple objects can belong to just one coat check.
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06:03:46 <Taneb> I like today's FreeFall
06:04:45 <shachaf> Taneb: Today's oots is p. good but has ````spoilerz''
06:04:48 <shachaf> so don't start on this one.
06:06:24 <Taneb> shachaf, should I enter IOCCC?
06:07:39 <Gracenotes> the best IOCCC entries are golfing interesting algorithms
06:09:15 <Gracenotes> golfing, byzantifying, and rococoifying
06:19:04 <coppro> dammit, I missed the underhanded c competition
06:19:41 <coppro> I had a *fantastic* way to be underhanded, too
06:20:02 <lifthrasiir> I still don't know why IOCCC judges changed a size limitation
06:20:21 <lifthrasiir> as the total byte size limitation is same (up to 4,096 bytes)
06:21:27 <kmc> hi everyone
06:22:14 <coppro> my plan was to use a hashtable with an if statement that accidentally does an assignment
06:22:25 <coppro> and my account just so happened to hash to 0
06:22:27 <Gracenotes> I can't wait to see how underhanded people are.
06:22:37 <olsner> coppro: if they haven't finished judging, maybe you could try to submit it anyway?
06:22:46 <coppro> olsner: I haven't the time to write it
06:22:54 <Gracenotes> coppro: hm, I think accidental-= is old-hat nowadays
06:23:00 <Gracenotes> not nearly underhanded enough in this day and age
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06:28:29 <coppro> Gracenotes: I think I had some other device to obfuscate that this was the bug
06:28:41 <coppro> since if you just do it with nothing else, the compiler wil catch it pretty easy
06:28:57 <coppro> the real trick was to make sure that it continued to work
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06:43:26 <Taneb> In C, does assignment propagate value?
06:43:55 <kmc> what do you mean?
06:44:49 <Gracenotes> a = b is an expression whose value is b and whose type is a's
06:45:52 <kallisti_> 16:41 < Taneb> kallisti's is unusual
06:48:57 <kallisti_> Taneb: if I understand correctly, C's assignment propagates bits.
06:49:57 <Taneb> So, I can do "a = b = c = 4;"
06:50:32 <olsner> as long as none of a, b and c alias each other
06:51:01 <Bike> assignment like that is reasonably common
07:01:52 <kmc> if they alias then it's UB due to multiple assignment with no sequence point?
07:06:25 <fizzie> The value of the assignment is the value the left-hand-side will have after the assignment.
07:06:50 <Gracenotes> If the instruction executes at the exact moment of high tide in northern Sri Lanka it's UB
07:07:30 <fizzie> [10:07:17] <fizzie> ,cc unsigned char b, c = 255; unsigned u1, u2; u1 = c + 1; u2 = b = c + 1;
07:07:34 <fizzie> [10:07:18] <candide> fizzie: <no output: b = 0; c = 255; u1 = 256; u2 = 0>
07:11:52 <Deewiant> "If the value being stored in an object is read from another object that overlaps in any way the storage of the first object, then the overlap shall be exact and the two objects shall have qualified or unqualified versions of a compatible type; otherwise, the behavior is undefined."
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07:14:40 <fizzie> The objects cover exactly the same bytes, presumably.
07:16:16 <fizzie> However, I don't think "a = b = c = 4;" involves any reads from objects b or c.
07:17:00 <Deewiant> fizzie: "The implementation is permitted to read the object to determine the value [of the left operand] but is not required to, even when the object has volatile-qualified type."
07:17:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, I just read that.
07:17:35 <fizzie> A (non-normative) footnote, how nasty to put something like that in it.
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07:21:07 <Deewiant> I guess that means it can even read from a, although the value isn't used?
07:21:56 <Deewiant> The value is "discarded" but it doesn't seem like anything precludes computing it first
07:24:09 <fizzie> I guess. I mean, plain "a;" can read from a.
07:24:34 <fizzie> Or at least should intuitively be able to.
07:25:03 <Deewiant> Well, I think it could be argued that discarding the value means that it shouldn't be computed in the first place
07:25:40 <Jafet> It could be argued that C sucks
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07:25:54 <Deewiant> That's a non-normative statement
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07:35:27 <olsner> hmm, so *volatile_int_p = 0; might read from memory too (before or after writing?) ... that would be interesting if the location happens to have side effects on read
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07:35:54 <olsner> e.g. if reading launches the missiles and writing aborts the launch
07:36:04 <Jafet> Good hardware design
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07:36:24 <olsner> I think people who make missile launchers do the best hardware design, probably
07:41:37 <olsner> > [...] which was then known still as a "Proscribed Action Link." The military leadership, however, soon realized that this term had negative connotations for the use of weapons by the officer corps (proscribed = "prohibited"), and changed the meaning of PAL to "Permissive Action Link" (permissive = "allowing / tolerating").
07:41:38 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `]'
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08:06:07 <fizzie> olsner: "What constitutes an access to an object that has volatile-qualified type is implementation-defined."
08:06:31 <fizzie> Just briefly glancing at the pointer can be a read, too.
08:07:02 <Deewiant> Surely not? The pointer itself isn't volatile-qualified
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08:07:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: But it's implementation-defined what constitutes an access. I don't think that's restricted in any way to e.g. expressions involving the object.
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09:17:25 <Taneb> If a dying star starts with enough energy, can it fuse past iron?
09:32:37 <FreeFull> Taneb: It's called a supernova
09:33:09 <FreeFull> Supernovas are how all elements past iron got made, and also they are good because they spread those elements around
09:33:45 <Taneb> Taneb's problem with his science education number 36 solved!
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12:57:28 <boily> good regular morning!
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13:39:52 <Taneb> I really want to do voice acting right now...
13:40:25 <fizzie> You can start a YouTube show. (Everyone can.)
13:41:55 <Taneb> I shall need an animator!
13:43:18 <fizzie> You can voice-act a still picture drawn in Paint.
13:44:09 <boily> you can do ASMR :D
13:44:40 <Taneb> What does that stand for?
13:44:57 <boily> http://www.reddit.com/r/asmr
13:48:21 <Taneb> This is going badly... Audacity seems to hate me
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13:56:08 <Taneb> Okay, the quality on this mic seems much better
13:56:48 <Taneb> Now I need a script!
13:57:26 <Taneb> You know, when I first played minecraft I only used my left hand, because I was talking into this microphone and it's one of those hand-held ones
13:59:21 <boily> how'd you move around?
14:00:45 <Taneb> I could reach WASD from my laptop's touchpad
14:01:03 <Taneb> Couldn't re-angle while mining, though
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14:42:56 <boily> I'm still confused as fungot about the Cont monad. I guess today will be a NIM.
14:42:56 <fungot> boily: and there are a lot of
14:43:15 <boily> indeed. each week, a new Non-Illumination Monday.
14:49:37 <fizzie> I didn't know "confused as fungot" was a term.
14:49:37 <fungot> fizzie: but you need to resist those urges :) http://paste.pocoo.org/ show/ lisppaste/ colorize it, and because you don't have to live with
14:57:06 <boily> fungot: I don't resist you. you are far too tempting a bot for me not to love you.
14:57:06 <fungot> boily: was never named iirc, vb.net has builtin oo too ( please don't panic)
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15:46:48 <JesseH> Hmm, I need better methods for implementing languages.
15:47:16 <JesseH> Are there some wiki pages about this or something?
15:47:21 <JesseH> Anyone have any good suggested reading?
15:50:44 <tswett> Well, what are your current methods?
15:52:13 <JesseH> Basically, I split the language up into tokens, but it can only handle simple statements
15:52:55 <JesseH> They work like functions, and can only handle a couple arguments each
15:53:26 <tswett> That'll work for simple languages, yeah. For more complicated languages, you'll probably want to use a parsing library.
15:54:17 <Vorpal> You could hand write a recursive parser as well
15:54:37 <Vorpal> I heard clang has a hand-written parser some time ago.
16:01:23 <fizzie> For almost any reasonable language, someone's written some kind of a parser-generator tool.
16:02:48 <fizzie> There's a kind of a table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_parser_generators
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17:24:56 <fizzie> Huh, the batteries in this remote seem to have explomoded.
17:25:11 <fizzie> Now the battery bay is: a mess.
17:25:34 <Lumpio-> Did you read the instruction manual!?
17:25:39 <Lumpio-> It says not to leave batteries in for a long time!
17:27:56 <fizzie> But I've been using it. Aren't you supposed to be able to do that?
17:29:41 <boily> fizzie: you're the first person I hear who had his batteries exploming.
17:30:22 <fizzie> Well, I think it must've been more of a leak than an explosion. But one side has sort of burst and there's a mess of white stuff.
17:34:23 <boily> so it's an explomesseak?
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18:04:37 <zzo38> What assemblers can execute the programs they compile as a postprocessor?
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18:06:38 <zzo38> Do you know of any, and if so, are they native code or emulated?
18:06:48 <zzo38> Can the DOS DEBUG program do this?
18:07:28 <fizzie> SPIM, kinda, if you count it as an assembler, but that's really a bit backwards way of looking at it, since it's more of an emulator with an integrated assembler. I don't think it even can write the code to file at all.
18:08:05 <zzo38> That's what it is? What computer does it emulate?
18:08:51 <fizzie> It emulates a hypothetical MIPS32 system, with a couple of "syscalls" do do input/output.
18:08:58 <fizzie> (It's designed for educational use.)
18:11:08 <zzo38> Unofficial MagicKit is a 6502 assembler with an integrated emulator. There is a special 64K bank for postprocessing, and if it has a nonzero reset vector, it will run the code in that bank before writing the output file. I think it might sometimes be useful to have in other assemblers too, but I don't know of any.
18:11:33 <zzo38> (The other banks are then accessed using memory-mapped I/O.)
18:12:04 <fizzie> I haven't heard of such a thing either.
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18:56:50 <Taneb> Having a mildly confusing conversation mixing up This Is The End with The World's End
18:57:15 <Taneb> Then someone mentioned Watson and someone else thought she was referring to the actor who played John Watson in Sherlock
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19:08:44 <Bike> scare quotes eh
19:10:33 <fizzie> I don't think it counts as a proper AI until it kills people.
19:11:28 <elliott> `addquote [on the name "Watson"] <fizzie> And not the IBM "AI"? <Bike> scare quotes eh <fizzie> I don't think it counts as a proper AI until it kills people.
19:11:31 <HackEgo> 1076) [on the name "Watson"] <fizzie> And not the IBM "AI"? <Bike> scare quotes eh <fizzie> I don't think it counts as a proper AI until it kills people.
19:11:55 <Fiora> fizzie: have you seen https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/167055177/nsc-isis%20maiden%20voyage.html ?
19:12:40 <fizzie> Fiora: Not before now, no.
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19:13:16 <Fiora> (it's a game where you get to play as a possibly evil/rampant/terrible AI)
19:14:03 <Bike> does killing people at a trivia game not count
19:14:55 <Fiora> I'm not sure having a very fast button pressing device really counts -_-
19:15:17 <Bike> why do you hate the future Fiora....
19:15:28 <elliott> what if the button is really spiky
19:15:41 <Fiora> I was kind of confused by like that whole thing because I watched some of it and I was like
19:15:57 <Fiora> "Ummm... okay, this computer is getting like 1/4 of the questions wrong, and isn't really doing that great, it's just pressing a button really fast"
19:16:10 <elliott> I wonder how much work went into actually physically pressing the button quickly. I assume it's not really the bottleneck
19:16:15 <elliott> (I didn't watch any of it)
19:16:34 <Fiora> they claimed I think that like, they made it "fair" by delaying it randomly by 0-50ms? which. um. doesn't seem very fair
19:16:51 <Bike> doesn't seem as interesting as chess AI, overall
19:17:54 <Bike> maybe i've just inherited elliott's dislike of speech recognition.
19:20:45 <fizzie> "Watson consistently outperformed its human opponents on the game's signaling device, --"
19:22:39 <elliott> maybe the robot just pushed the button and they had an intern answer the questions.
19:22:44 <fizzie> But apparently it's been programmed not to press the buzzer before it has achieved some pre-set confidence level.
19:22:49 <fizzie> Or that's what they claim, anyway.
19:23:18 <elliott> pre-set confidence level or if it has a real good hunch
19:28:22 <zzo38> The computer was very good at it, however, one of the players made a severe error near the end considering the tournament format, and they might have had a good chance of winning if they didn't make that mistake.
19:29:02 <zzo38> Someone claimed that "WATSON" is "World Annihilating Trivia Solving Ontological Network" (I forget who told me) but probably not.
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19:31:40 <fizzie> I think it should've been called "Deep Watson".
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19:33:24 <zzo38> Winning at Jeopardy! isn't entirely about always knowing the correct responses; there are a few other things too.
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19:34:16 <olsner> did watson remember to answer with a question every time?
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19:34:51 <zzo38> Yes, there was practice so if there was that mistake in the program they would have corrected it immediately.
19:35:54 <fizzie> "You survived [299] days before killing your human."
19:37:17 <zzo38> Why is it in brackets?
19:37:28 <boily> it's a list of days.
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19:41:01 <metasepia> Minecraft is a sandbox indie game originally created by Swedish programmer Markus "Notch" Persson and later developed and published by Mojang.
19:41:26 <metasepia> Year 376 was a leap year starting on Friday of the Julian calendar.
19:41:39 <fungot> olsner: there is at most one variable in the of the slot where it " points" for goading others to suicide and those points get them more power.
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19:48:10 <olsner> gloomy fungot. glumgot.
19:48:11 <fungot> olsner: you keep saying, it's not considered a particularly bad swear word as far as i know what's a good book. his terms. like it, get yer lazy bum over to the writing system.
19:50:27 <boily> `learn glumgot is not a particularly bad swear word, but is still disquieting.
19:51:54 <HackEgo> boily is Canadian or something. We are not sure about Canada's existence.
19:55:36 <olsner> `pastelogs Canadian or something
19:55:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20160
19:56:25 <olsner> `pastelogs seems to exist at least
19:56:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.11343
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19:59:05 <boily> at least I'm something. I have non-zero mass!
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20:49:24 <metasepia> mass definition: '''capitalized''' the liturgy of the Eucharist especially in accordance with the traditional Latin rite.
20:49:39 <boily> ~duck the other mass
20:49:43 <boily> ~duck physical mass
20:49:48 <metasepia> weight definition: the amount that a thing weighs.
20:53:46 <boily> aaaurgh. c'mon, eh?
20:54:08 <boily> ~duck irregardless
20:54:08 <metasepia> Irregardless is a word commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective, which has caused controversy since the early twentieth century, though the word appeared in print as early as 1795.
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21:29:10 <boily> generic question: is it possible to SSH to a machine as user1@example.com, but you get logged in as user2?
21:29:31 <kmc> it's possible for things to be confused about what name is given to a particular UID
21:30:09 <boily> I mean, sshd is configured that way.
21:30:25 <kmc> i don't know of a particular common way that this happens
21:30:41 <boily> darn. my mischievous plans are preliminarily foiled.
21:30:50 <kmc> what are you up to...
21:31:07 <pikhq_> I suppose you could have the shell pointing to a suid program that logs in as user2?
21:31:12 <pikhq_> This would be insane of course.
21:32:28 <boily> well, I had in mind to offer a root shell to my machine to my coworkers, but a fake one with a fake shell.
21:32:33 <boily> (yes, I am bored.)
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21:32:59 <boily> pikhq_: insanity is good. it has marshmallows.
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21:49:42 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia
21:50:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: egslist: not found
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21:53:46 <ion> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1jal04/i_am_reza_aslan_scholar_of_religions_author_of/cbcu4q2?context=3
21:53:57 <Bike> the guy on fo?
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22:19:51 <shachaf> ion: Did you do all the exciting exercises?
22:20:04 <ion> shachaf: I still haven’t got around to that.
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22:21:39 <kmc> what kind?
22:21:52 <ion> LEM → callCC at least
22:22:08 <shachaf> I don't remember. Sometimes I give exercises to ion and eventually he gets around to doing them.
22:22:46 <ion> I have managed to read some pages of HoTT.
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22:43:21 <kmc> Bitcoin is banned in Thailand now
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22:43:40 <Bike> i'm going to imagine that's an imperial edict.
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22:49:26 <Fiora> Bike: http://eprint.iacr.org/2004/199.pdf wow, this paper
22:49:52 <Fiora> "nope don't mind me just breaking 4 hash functions in one paper"
22:50:43 <Bike> this seems badly translated
22:50:46 <Fiora> http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F11535218_2.pdf oh gosh, this guy did the SHA1 work too
22:50:49 <Bike> or uh, written
22:51:09 <Bike> straightforward though
22:51:56 <Fiora> xiaoyun wang is very much not a guy
22:52:07 <elliott> I like how the paper is just a bunch of collisions
22:52:23 <Fiora> so she apparently broke MD5, SHA-0, SHA-1, RIPEMD, and MD4
22:52:25 <Bike> elliott: straightforward!
22:54:06 <shachaf> kmc: MAP_GROWSDOWN is mostly used for mapping bird pages.
22:56:05 <kmc> i don't quite get it
22:57:05 <shachaf> imo i should've made a feather jokez instead "too late"
22:57:45 <kmc> is a growsdown a kind of bird or something
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22:59:10 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_feather
22:59:24 <Fiora> I thought it would be useful for carrot pages because they grow down
22:59:35 <Fiora> ... shachaf that was actually amazing
22:59:38 <kmc> shachaf: :)
22:59:56 <Fiora> that was wonderful
23:01:07 <shachaf> it's not as specialized as MAP_GROWSUP, which has only ever been used by pixar
23:01:59 <Fiora> I thought it was like
23:02:28 <Fiora> puberty is madvise( person, sizeof(person), MADV_GROWSUP )
23:02:47 <shachaf> Obviously when a bird grows up it stops growing down.
23:18:04 <oerjan> puberty is when you're mad but think you are wise
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23:37:51 <zzo38> What happens when you are wise and you think you are mad?
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23:41:14 <oerjan> zzo38: enlightenment hth
23:41:34 <shachaf> kmc: does zzo38 have the buddha nature
23:42:09 <kmc> there are slight linguistic parallels between zzo38 and Smullyan
23:42:46 <kmc> i'm not sure exactly
23:42:58 <kmc> just a few similarities in the way they write
23:43:32 <shachaf> i like smullyan's writing style
23:43:38 <kmc> me too, I think?
23:43:46 <shachaf> i also like zzo38's but in a different way
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23:53:23 <Fiora> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_pulsar_based_navigation wooow. it's like, GPS for spaceships
23:53:28 <Fiora> with pulsars instead of satellites
23:54:14 <Bike> theyre not too far away?
23:54:41 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsar_clock apparently they can do clocks too o_O
23:55:00 <Fiora> http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.4842v1.pdf yay the pulsar navigation thing has an arxiv
23:55:23 <Bike> "Digital processing of the pulsar signals is done by an FPGA device."
23:55:26 <Fiora> gosh that is actually really cool.
23:55:42 <Fiora> I'm imagining like flying my spaceship around and having a pulsar positioning system
23:55:45 <Fiora> "PPS, set course for pluto"
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00:00:44 <madbr> I think I figured how to do sound on a replacement/upgrade of Chip8 ( http://www.chip8.com/ )
00:02:19 <zzo38> What is it when you are both wise and mad?
00:02:26 <zzo38> madbr: How do you do it?
00:02:30 <madbr> 2 cpu cores, one does sound :D
00:02:44 <madbr> and just does software mixing into some buffer
00:03:13 <madbr> the 2 cpu cores communicate through just some 256 byte buffer or something like that
00:03:55 <madbr> makes it a lot easier to emulate because you can just run the main core on the main thread (and render gfx etc there) and run the sound core on the sound driver callback thread
00:04:20 <madbr> and just copy the 256 byte buffer every frame
00:04:25 <zzo38> Well, there is BytePusher which needs software mixing for sound although it is only a single core
00:05:11 <madbr> also both cores have completely separated ram/data
00:05:40 <madbr> zzo: single core makes it hard to get low latency
00:05:53 <madbr> because you have to render enough audio on each frame
00:06:46 <oerjan> zzo38: then you're nasreddin hth
00:07:30 <oerjan> or perhaps more generally, the Fool
00:08:33 <madbr> generating audio on a gfx update thread is not generally a good idea
00:14:21 <zzo38> madbr: You are probably correct about that, but sometimes there isn't really another way.
00:14:55 <madbr> though if you're ok with something like 50ms latency then there's no problem
00:14:55 <zzo38> I know SDL uses a separate thread for audio, though.
00:15:21 <madbr> (and tbh you need special setups for sub 30ms latencies on OSes like windows anyways)
00:18:45 <madbr> but yeah it's like
00:19:01 <madbr> you have to chose your opcodes well because that's what people will use to make gfx
00:19:13 <madbr> if alpha blending is easy, everything will be transparent
00:19:41 <madbr> if scaling is easy everything will be some sort of fake 3d (like wolfenstein etc)
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00:26:25 <kmc> Fiora: wow awesome
00:26:57 <Fiora> "Millisecond pulsars, which can be timed with high precision, are better clocks than the best atomic clocks."
00:27:18 <Fiora> http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/751.pdf wow, NIST has a paper on it
00:27:30 <Bike> um which one is NIST
00:27:48 <Fiora> Um... national... institute of standards and technology
00:27:52 <Fiora> they're the ones that run the fountain clocks I think?
00:28:02 <Fiora> and the hash function competitions
00:28:12 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIST-F1
00:30:15 <zzo38> But does relative spacetime ever get in the way of these kind of things?
00:30:46 <Bike> star passes in front of pulsar a million years ago, slightly warps light, earth civilization collapses
00:31:02 <kmc> that would be awkward
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00:32:08 <Fiora> I think the idea is you'd use a lot of different ones?
00:33:00 <Bike> fucking engineers, always bringing "realism" into my civilization collapse fanfiction
00:35:20 -!- Bike_ has joined.
00:35:25 <zzo38> What is a Black problem? (as in "You start debating the Black problem with Lieutenant Grgirok!")
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00:44:23 <shachaf> kmc: I heard Rust 1.0 is not planned to have higher-kinded type variables only because no one cares enough to implement it. :-(
00:56:24 <oerjan> they're probably just secretly afraid of getting Monad
00:57:13 <kmc> my new pseudonym will be Rusty Burrito
00:58:22 <zzo38> madbr: I am not too sure; someone will make things that don't use all of the features, even though they might be available.
01:00:13 <zzo38> shachaf: That's why? Does it have higher-kinded types though?
01:03:53 <shachaf> zzo38: That depends on what you mean.
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01:16:26 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: or they have a limited resource to harmonize all the proposed things ;)
01:17:29 <HackEgo> monotone: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:19:30 <doesthiswork> now that we have one monotone in here, this channel is monotone increasing
01:19:50 <Bike> boo get off the stage
01:20:09 <monotone> I really should stop picking usernames based on the first word that pops into my head.
01:20:58 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: why are you using a smiley when i am the one who is joking
01:21:46 <Bike> it's a kind-level joke
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01:41:13 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `]'
01:41:38 <oerjan> i wonder exactly what could replace that ] and make it parse correctly
01:42:01 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:3: parse error on input `]'
01:42:08 <lambdabot> A section must be enclosed in parentheses thus: (+ 3)
01:42:23 <lambdabot> A section must be enclosed in parentheses thus: (+ 3 4)
01:42:59 <lambdabot> A section must be enclosed in parentheses thus: (... 1)Not in scope: `...'
01:45:29 <oerjan> i thought ghc used a lalr style parser, so shouldn't err out later than the first token which cannot be valid
01:46:00 <shachaf> Well, it looks like it handles the [`op` x] case specially.
01:46:26 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: parse error on input `]'
01:46:34 <ion> A beard must be stroked thusly:
01:47:12 <pikhq_> > let op = 1 in [`op`]
01:47:13 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:20: parse error on input `]'
01:47:26 <ion> > [ `op` ]
01:47:27 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: parse error on input `]'
01:47:38 <oerjan> so perhaps there _is_ some valid way to start with [`op`
01:50:32 <oerjan> ...wait, perhaps it is doing it just so it can give that special helpful error for sections
01:50:50 <shachaf> Yes, that's what I said above.
01:53:14 <oerjan> 09:17:25: <Taneb> If a dying star starts with enough energy, can it fuse past iron?
01:53:17 <oerjan> 09:32:37: <FreeFull> Taneb: It's called a supernova
01:53:20 <oerjan> 09:33:09: <FreeFull> Supernovas are how all elements past iron got made, and also they are good because they spread those elements around
01:53:37 <oerjan> there is also a process in red giants
01:54:01 <oerjan> the s-process of neutron capture
01:54:49 <FreeFull> Ah, apparently it makes up to Pb
01:55:18 <oerjan> the r-process in supernovas is also neutron capture, but they behave differently because in supernovas the nuclei don't have time to decay between one capture and the next
01:56:06 <oerjan> r and s are for rapid and slow respectively iirc
01:57:01 <oerjan> @tell taneb See logs for corrections to "all elements past iron are made in supernovas" hth
01:57:55 <oerjan> it's a common misunderstanding, i think
02:01:48 <FreeFull> Which process is more responsible for the heavy stuff?
02:09:15 <oerjan> istr about half of isotopes beyond iron each. also very vaguely that there might be some more minor processes.
02:10:12 -!- dlerimpf has joined.
02:10:21 <dlerimpf> Here is a simple challenge, check if a piece of text is a palindrome:
02:10:27 <dlerimpf> -Returns text "$variable is palindrome" if palindrome
02:10:36 <dlerimpf> -Returns text "$variable is not palindrome [reverse shown]" if not a palindrome
02:11:08 <zzo38> What programming language did you want? That is possible in different ways in other programming languages; some already have a command for reversing a text that way you can check easily
02:12:03 <Bike> > (\x -> x = reverse x) "amanaplanacanalpanama"
02:12:04 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:10: parse error on input `='
02:12:06 <zzo38> They both have command to reverse a string built-in, I think.
02:12:09 <Bike> > (\x -> x == reverse x) "amanaplanacanalpanama"
02:12:14 <oerjan> > join(==).reverse$"ablewasiereisawelba"
02:12:15 <Bike> > (\x -> x == reverse x) "fuckfuckfuckfuckfuck"
02:12:44 <dlerimpf> <?php if ($argc !== 2) die ("Usage: {$argv[0]} string_to_test"); if ($argv[1] === strrev($argv[1])) die ("{$argv[1]} is a palindrome."); else die ("${argv[1]} is not a palindrome: " . strrev($argv[1]));
02:13:09 <shachaf> a man, a plan, a can, al-panama
02:13:40 <Bike> so is oerjan's
02:13:48 <shachaf> dlerimpf: Are you mafingre etc.?
02:14:10 <Bike> they're both basically the same as yours.
02:14:26 <Bike> it could be done faster, but, Like, Why Bother, Man
02:14:51 <dlerimpf> So it wont be shorter in golfscript?
02:15:07 <Bike> i don't know,maybe it is.
02:15:18 <zzo38> I think it will be shorter in GolfScript, probably
02:21:00 <shachaf> dlerimpf: So is that a yes or a no or what?
02:21:37 <dlerimpf> shachaf: I have no idea what you are on about
02:22:16 <Bike> > "Hello" !! 0
02:22:32 <elliott> dlerimpf: protip: your challenges will be a lot more warmly received if you stop the using different names and denying it thing. really.
02:22:33 <dlerimpf> shachaf: Are you Shachaf Ben-Kiki?
02:22:50 <elliott> it's ridiculous, didn't we go over this last time? :P
02:23:07 <shachaf> elliott: Also, it's a different IP address, unlike last time.
02:23:15 <dlerimpf> elliott: Point is, why does it matter who I am?
02:23:18 <elliott> shachaf: yes, but same ISP and first component
02:23:24 <elliott> and also same everything else
02:23:39 <shachaf> Is it? I must be thinking of a different one.
02:23:57 <dlerimpf> shachaf: Why? You seem so interested who I am?
02:24:01 <elliott> dlerimpf: yo, I'm going to ban you if you don't stop now.
02:24:19 <dlerimpf> elliott: Then please stop asking who I am. It is irrelevant and OT
02:24:27 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
02:24:41 -!- elliott has kicked dlerimpf please take this hint. it will be best for both of us..
02:24:42 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
02:25:01 -!- dlerimpf has joined.
02:25:10 * elliott orchestra cuts out suddenly
02:25:10 <Bike> Fiora: clapping is off-topic!!
02:25:21 * Bike plays record scratch on mp3 player
02:25:24 <zzo38> Let's start more orchestra.
02:25:26 <Fiora> oh no! I hath violated the esoteric topic!
02:25:34 <Bike> let's Rock Out
02:25:41 <Bike> Fiora: can we make music out of pulsars
02:25:49 <shachaf> Fiora: only challenges are on-topic
02:26:16 <Fiora> Bike: well, like, they come in all kinds of frequencies, right? from like 0.1hz to 700hz
02:26:18 <dlerimpf> Shachaf Ben-Kiki, I never said that, but you decided to change the topic
02:26:29 <Fiora> so you can get lots of different notes just by picking the right pulsar!
02:26:49 <Bike> Fiora: those are pretty low notes....
02:27:22 <Fiora> 700hz isn't *that* low is it?
02:27:49 <zzo38> 700Hz is less than one octave above the middle "A" 440 Hz.
02:28:02 <zzo38> Please stop banning [DATA EXPUNGED].
02:28:11 <Bike> yeah i guess it's audible (i keep wanting to say "edible", wtf)
02:28:23 <madbr> does it have harmonics?
02:28:41 <zzo38> I think it would be too big to eat
02:28:45 <Fiora> om nom nom neutronium!!
02:28:45 <Bike> madbr: multiple pulsars do, i guess
02:29:03 <Fiora> really though eating pulsars sounds like a bad idea >_< I'd gain too much weight
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02:29:32 <elliott> I think if you end up eating pulsars you probably have bigger problems to worry about.
02:29:40 <Bike> like red giants!
02:30:03 <Fiora> "gosh, you're so fat that you're barely bigger than your schwarzchild radius"
02:31:16 <Bike> > let palin str star fin = if fin < star then True else (str !! star == str !! fin) && palin str (1 + star) (fin - 1) in palin "amanaplanacanalpanama" 0 (length "amanaplanacanalpanama") -- the worst haskell
02:31:17 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.(!!): index too large
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02:32:06 <Bike> oh, obvious too. oh well.
02:33:13 -!- tertu has joined.
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02:33:48 <Sgeo> http://activeworlds.com/ go to Community, click Forums, facepalm
02:34:06 <Sgeo> People in the AW group on FB are begging to redo the site
02:34:20 <Sgeo> Also: downloads1
02:36:09 <Bike> > let palin str star fin = if fin < star then True else (str !! star == str !! fin) && palin str (1 + star) (fin - 1) in palin "amanaplanacanalpanama" 0 ((length "amanaplanacanalpanama") - 1)
02:36:14 <kmc> the whole site looks like a time machine to 2003
02:36:22 <Bike> > let palin str star fin = if fin < star then True else (str !! star == str !! fin) && palin str (1 + star) (fin - 1) in palin "fuck" 0 ((length "fuck") - 1)
02:38:10 <Bike> http://valerieaurora.org/hash.html oh, always nice to see her doin stuff
02:38:26 <Sgeo> kmc: this version of the site is new circa today
02:38:51 <Bike> when you put 'em all in a box like that it makes one doubt their existence, really...
02:38:52 <zzo38> madbr: Have you entered/downloaded this Famicompo?
02:39:02 <Fiora> Bike: yeah, that was a cool read
02:39:36 <madbr> was busy with other stuff :/
02:39:42 <Bike> lol at the "non-expert" column.
02:39:50 <Bike> "Long semi-mathematical posts comparing the complexity of the attack to the number of protons in the universe"
02:40:25 <Fiora> Bike: that was like, the best part of the page
02:40:44 <kmc> yeah the chart at the bottom is great
02:41:09 <Bike> Update Pokemon wikipedia pages
02:41:38 <Fiora> is there some reason why people don't like using crypto-based hash stuff, like whirlpool I guess is AES, right?
02:41:57 <Fiora> or is that "less secure" than AES itself?
02:42:13 <kmc> I don't know
02:42:18 <kmc> but yes join ##crypto, it's good
02:42:35 <kmc> you can also do the opposite -- use a hash function as a symmetric cipher, with a CTR-like construction
02:42:44 <Bike> so who here thinks one-way functions exist, now i'm curious
02:43:22 <kmc> this is explicitly how Salsa20 works, and I don't know of any reason it wouldn't be safe with SHA-256 or your other cryptographic hash of choice, but nobody is willing to say that it is safe, either
02:43:38 <kmc> Bike: I believe that God is a troll and so probably whether one-way functions exist is independent of the axioms of ZFC, or something
02:43:57 <Sgeo> One way functions exist! (*0)
02:43:58 <Bike> i don't think ZFC is that relevant to P=NP though
02:44:09 <kmc> that's what they always say
02:44:24 <Fiora> I kind of like the Heuristica world
02:44:33 <Bike> which one was that again
02:44:38 <zzo38> What are your opinions about the rule in snooker where you have to try hard to hit the ball?
02:44:48 <Fiora> ummm what was the guy's name
02:44:54 <kmc> Zermelo-Fraenkel, writing the words to a sermon that no-one will hear
02:44:54 <Fiora> ilpalagio something?
02:44:55 <shachaf> i like salsa20 because it's simple even though maybe i should probably care less about simplicity and more about being tested
02:44:55 <Sgeo> I don't think I've heard of snooker, is it pool related?
02:45:14 <Bike> Fiora: i remember the paper, not which one heuristica was is all.
02:45:22 <elliott> dlerimpf: you really should drop the telling people they're off-topic thing.
02:45:48 <kmc> it involves putting balls into holes using sticks
02:45:57 <Fiora> "heuristica" is the one where NP problems are easy on average, but hard in the worst case, and I think (not sure?) that it's like, it's actually NP-hard /to find a hard instance of an NP problem/
02:45:58 <kmc> I guess golf is also like snooker in that way
02:46:08 <elliott> well I assumed that was why you said "Fiora: ##crypto" but perhaps there is some other meaning I am missing
02:46:55 <dlerimpf> elliott: Does this look like a room filled with people who have great experience with crypto?
02:47:09 <dlerimpf> He will get a better response there
02:47:17 <zzo38> dlerimpf: Some people do.
02:47:27 <Fiora> I think he was just trying to be helpful maybe (?)...
02:47:31 <elliott> anyway right now it looks like a room filled with a bunch of people who know about quite a lot of things and at least one jackass (hint: it's you)
02:47:33 <Bike> Fiora: oh, that one was fun
02:47:40 <dlerimpf> zzo38: Sure, but more people in #crypto
02:47:42 <kmc> elliott: <3
02:47:59 <Bike> Fiora: the cute gauss stories made that paper
02:48:02 <dlerimpf> elliott: Oh, so the person helping someone else is the jackass?
02:48:06 <zzo38> dlerimpf: Yes, that is probably correct
02:48:11 <kmc> hey let's all chill here?
02:48:12 <Fiora> Bike: cute gauss stories?
02:48:17 <kmc> I didn't read what dlerimpf said the same way elliott did
02:48:19 <dlerimpf> zzo38: Ok remind me not to help anyone ever again
02:48:27 <kmc> but dlerimpf your reaction is rather negative
02:48:30 <kmc> so let's chill a bit
02:48:42 <dlerimpf> <elliott> dlerimpf: you really should drop the telling people they're off-topic thing.
02:48:47 <Bike> Fiora: the thing where each of the worlds had an accompanying story about gauss's teacher trying to stump him (based on the "sum of 1..100 thing)
02:48:54 <Bike> um quote in there somewhere
02:49:06 <dlerimpf> I just mentioned a channel name
02:49:11 <kmc> wow you still aren't getting that "he" is not the correct word to use to refer to Fiora
02:49:12 <Fiora> Bike: oh geez, I guess I need to reread this more carefully
02:49:19 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
02:49:42 <Bike> Fiora: reading about what a freak gauss was kind of adds to it. he was in college at 16 or some shit
02:50:29 <zzo38> Is it possible to disable the scroll wheel in PuTTY?
02:50:34 <Fiora> agh, its' a .ps file. how do I read these again
02:50:39 <Sgeo> Ok, AW guy is an asshole
02:50:47 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*7c96346a@*.124.150.52.106.
02:50:47 -!- elliott has kicked dlerimpf look, I gave you a warning. and please don't just get yet another nick in response to this..
02:50:51 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
02:50:56 <zzo38> Fiora: Use a PostScript interpreter (such as GNU GhostScript)?
02:50:56 <Bike> Fiora: evince deals with it, so do foxit and most of the pdf readers probably
02:51:03 <zzo38> elliott: Please stop banning everyone
02:51:09 <Sgeo> Flipped people off (jokingly)... by using a picture of some commentor in the discussion flipping the bird
02:51:25 <Fiora> oh, it looks like this online converter worked
02:51:44 <Bike> that's the spirit. online services for all
02:51:51 <zzo38> (You shouldn't ban yourself either)
02:51:55 <Fiora> "In real life, this led to Grouse's commitment to a lunatic asylum" geeez
02:52:06 <Bike> i think that's a bit exaggerated
02:52:24 <Bike> though i say this as someone who also had an elementary teacher take a break in an asylum. maybe i'm biased
02:53:00 -!- erg0 has joined.
02:53:55 <erg0> How is everyone?
02:54:58 <erg0> Where did dlerimpf go?
02:55:26 <zzo38> erg0: They went away because someone else didn't like them and they got banned and kick
02:55:44 <erg0> For what reason?
02:55:49 <elliott> erg0: ok so like, you've literally never been in this channel before
02:55:59 <elliott> do you have a good argument as to why you are not ban evading
02:56:04 <erg0> elliott: I have been idling here
02:56:18 <oerjan> elliott: ok i was going to say you were a bit harsh banning dlerimpf but when he _immediately_ sockpuppets...
02:56:19 <zzo38> Did you read the logs?
02:56:20 <elliott> no, you haven't. I have logs.
02:56:29 <erg0> elliott: Innocent until proven guilty?
02:56:46 <erg0> I thought that is how law works
02:56:50 <zzo38> You can read the logs without being connected, you know!!!
02:56:50 <shachaf> oerjan: It's not as if this is the first time.
02:56:53 <elliott> oerjan: the ban was also half for him googlestalking shachaf.
02:56:55 <oerjan> erg0: you're already proven guilty to anyone who isn't an idiot hth
02:57:09 <elliott> admittedly I should half-ban shachaf by the same token
02:57:14 <erg0> oerjan: You need actual proof?
02:57:15 <kmc> elliott isn't banning everyone he's banning one person over and over
02:57:19 <zzo38> elliott: You need to be banned from IRC for that?
02:57:33 <Fiora> Bike: oh gosh, the gauss metaphors actually make it make a lot more sense now
02:57:33 <Bike> erg0: grep erg0 irclogs/2013/freenode/#eso*
02:57:38 <erg0> dlerimpf is my friend
02:57:40 <Bike> Fiora: haha yeah
02:57:44 <erg0> He said you banned him
02:57:48 <erg0> I am speaking to him on fb
02:58:12 <erg0> Bike: Not under that nick silly
02:58:14 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't think so. That is hardly sufficient evidence for anything.
02:58:19 <erg0> is my other nick
02:59:18 <Bike> ok well can you ask your friend why they've been spamming this channel with dumbassed quizzes, and ban evading in the most transparent manner imaginable as they do, and generally annoying everybody
02:59:28 <Bike> i mean come on, the nicks all start with 'dl', this isn't a fucking spy ring
02:59:31 <erg0> "If you're considering publishing channel logs, think it through. The freenode network is an interactive environment. Even on public channels, most users don't weigh their comments with the idea that they'll be enshrined in perpetuity. For that reason, few participants publish logs."
02:59:31 <kmc> and getting their friends to come argue with us about it
02:59:37 <Bike> yes, that too.
02:59:43 <zzo38> They aren't dumbassed quizzes and they didn't annoy everyone
02:59:44 <Fiora> and randomly misgendering people for no reason I guess
02:59:50 <erg0> http://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml
03:00:10 <oerjan> erg0: this channel has had logs since before those guidelines were written hth
03:00:20 <erg0> Bike: That is not sufficient evidence in the court of law
03:00:20 <Bike> also it just says "If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should reflect that fact." and i mean.
03:00:26 <Bike> we're not in a court of law, doofus.
03:00:45 <erg0> Bike: So this is not a fair system?
03:00:49 <erg0> IRC is not fair?
03:01:01 <erg0> It is biased towards the OPs
03:01:04 <Bike> No. It's a dictatorship. Report to the GULAG.
03:01:05 <erg0> And the abuse of power
03:01:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o kmc.
03:01:15 <zzo38> erg0: I agree it is biased wrong
03:01:19 * Fiora flails her arms it's not faaaiiiiirrr
03:01:24 <Bike> #esoteric reeducation through hard labor
03:01:30 -!- kmc has kicked erg0 erg0.
03:01:36 <oerjan> zzo38: i do not think you have the best intuition on who is obviously trying to troll i'm afraid.
03:01:38 -!- erg0 has joined.
03:01:40 -!- kmc has kicked erg0 erg0.
03:01:44 -!- erg0 has joined.
03:01:45 -!- kmc has kicked erg0 erg0.
03:01:47 -!- erg0 has joined.
03:01:49 -!- kmc has kicked erg0 erg0.
03:01:49 <Fiora> kmc are you having fun
03:01:49 -!- erg0 has joined.
03:01:50 <Bike> kmc i have an idea
03:01:53 -!- kmc has kicked erg0 erg0.
03:01:57 -!- erg0 has joined.
03:02:10 -!- kmc has set channel mode: +b *!*@ec2-107-22-99-160.compute-1.amazonaws.com.
03:02:12 -!- kmc has kicked erg0 erg0.
03:02:31 <kmc> now they'll have to buy a second EC2 instance to troll us
03:02:33 <Bike> haha, well, almost too bad we didn't get to see the argument where the first amendment of the US constitution applies to elliott
03:02:47 -!- kmc has set channel mode: -o kmc.
03:03:14 <shachaf> Hmm, I think I've lost the rest of my sympathy for this person.
03:03:38 <elliott> well I hear they'd already ban-evaded in ##crypto
03:03:46 <Bike> i just noticed that yiyus was actually here while they were claiming to be yiyus
03:04:06 <kmc> shachaf: what in particular changed your mind?
03:05:03 <zzo38> Now erg0 is not connected I tried to send message to them
03:05:18 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlwxLtFQcrY Anyway here's an update on crow/human relations
03:05:40 <shachaf> kmc: I mean the whole past 40 minutes since they joined.
03:06:14 <shachaf> I wasn't sure whether they trolling or not, sincere or not, etc. Now I don't really care.
03:07:16 <zzo38> Make a shadow channel so that banned people can still communicate; since there is the log you can still read this channel, even if you have to reply in shadow channel.
03:08:19 <Fiora> Bike: that's what the crow gets for being part of a murder
03:08:25 <Fiora> (but seriously gosh that was adorable)
03:10:40 <kmc> '"Fake Cops" Robbing Detroit Citizens At Gunpoint Turn Out To Be Real Cops Robbing Citizens At Gunpoint'
03:12:34 <Bike> well at least they were actually arrested instead of some bullshit blue line situation
03:13:52 -!- zzo38 has left.
03:14:07 <kmc> Bike: arrested sure, convicted?
03:14:28 <Bike> i only just googled it and got some shady looking news site though, didn't really look at it >_
03:15:51 <oerjan> <Bike> ok well can you ask your friend why they've been spamming this channel with dumbassed quizzes, and ban evading in the most transparent manner imaginable as they do [...] <-- fwiw the nick changes had nothing to do with getting banned here, which i don't think he's been until today.
03:16:47 <Bike> you think dlerimpf and dlackili are unrelated?
03:18:08 <kmc> they both suck and are gone
03:20:11 <doesthiswork> hey! I'm not going to just sit here while you say mean things about me
03:20:56 <Bike> we'll have to set up a court to see if you're innocent
03:21:28 <Fiora> let us see if he weighs the same as a duck
03:22:01 <doesthiswork> ban someone, if they come back they are a troll
03:22:47 <Bike> nine out of nine dentists agree
03:23:05 <doesthiswork> I look like a duck and I quack like a duck then I am in the same equvilancy class as a duck
03:23:20 <Sgeo> 9 out of 10 sociopaths agree...
03:24:02 <Bike> are you calling dentists sociopaths
03:24:18 <elliott> obviously one of the sociopaths was not a dentist.
03:24:25 <shachaf> choice [c <$ char c | c <- ...]
03:24:32 <Bike> right but which
03:24:44 <elliott> we just established doesthiswork isn't a witch, Bike.
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03:25:12 <doesthiswork> obviously one of the codentists is not a cosociopath
03:27:08 <shachaf> kmc: should rust use maximal munch syntax for unicode escapes, like haskell
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04:08:56 <zzo38> Does any of you want to enter Z-Comp? Maybe you should try.
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04:13:59 <zzo38> shachaf: A competition to write Z-machine games.
04:14:11 <zzo38> There are three themes every time it is on.
04:16:14 <zzo38> Z-Comp is actually a room in ifMUD, although there are IF Wiki article and Intfiction forum message about it too.
04:17:03 <zzo38> Do you know how to make a chess variant based on INTERCAL?
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04:24:33 <zzo38> Nobody has entered Z-Comp yet so I hope someone should do so.
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08:26:46 <Taneb> `slist Dirk and ARquis
08:26:52 <HackEgo> slist Dirk and ARquis: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
08:28:29 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you start reading `olist?
08:28:37 <Taneb> > ap(==)reverse "amanaplanacanalpanama"
08:34:30 <fizzie> `pastlog A man, a plan, a canoe
08:34:37 <HackEgo> 2013-05-19.txt:17:18:40: <FreeFull> > reverse "A man, a plan, a canoe, pasta, heros, rajahs, a coloratura, maps, snipe, percale, macaroni, a gag, a banana bag, a tan, a tag, a banana bag again (or a camel), a crepe, pins, Spam, a rut, a Rolo, cash, a jar, sore hats, a peon, a canal – Panama!"
08:36:25 <fizzie> > (ap (==) reverse . filter isAlpha . map toLower) "A man, a plan, a canoe, pasta, heros, rajahs, a coloratura, maps, snipe, percale, macaroni, a gag, a banana bag, a tan, a tag, a banana bag again (or a camel), a crepe, pins, Spam, a rut, a Rolo, cash, a jar, sore hats, a peon, a canal – Panama!"
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08:46:56 <shachaf> > (ap (==) reverse . filter isAlpha . map toLower) "A manap, lanac, a noep, astaher, osra, jahs, acolor, a tur, a maps, snip, eper, Cale, mac, a roni, a gagab, a nanab, a gatanatag, a ban, a nab, a gaga in Oracam, elacre, pepins, spa, Maru, tar, Oloca, shajars, ore, hatsap, eon, a can, Alpa, nama!"
08:48:49 <fizzie> Trust a shachaf to be all about shajars.
08:49:36 <shachaf> fizzie: p. sure my version is better
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10:37:10 <fizzie> "At an international peace summit, matrix dimensions have finally reached agreement. The peace treaty ends a bitter feud that has ruined the lives of tens of thousands of programmers for years. As part of the peace agreements, indices from both parties will be allowed to exceed matrix dimensions for the first time in recorded history.
10:37:16 <fizzie> The agreement comes as a surprise to many. Recently, tempers flared when it was discovered that only square matrices were allowed to be raised to a power, leading to unrest among many N-by-M matrices. Previous attempts to broker peace, including widespread transposition, proved only occasionally successful.
10:37:21 <fizzie> Commentators have responded enthusiastically to the news: ‘%This is a great day for everyone, regardless of their nrows or ncols. No longer will the tyrannical constraints of matrix agreement, that have left thousands of matrices sparse for life, be allowed to rule our sloppy programming’."
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10:57:58 <CADD> fizzie++ that was great!
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11:07:33 <Jafet> These "summits" never provide real solutions to the high tensors that result from map contractions, physical displacements and the like.
11:16:09 <fizzie> It was from http://collectivelyunconscious.wordpress.com/ where pretty much all the posts are of similar ilk.
11:16:39 <fizzie> "Controversial trial will provide free polymerase to junk DNA", "Animal rights activists outraged by infinite monkey experiment", "Scientists receive 12.6 million dollar grant to format references correctly", and so on.
11:17:57 <Jafet> The last one sounds plausible
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11:18:18 <fizzie> "In this time of budget cuts, this grant really is a fantastic opportunity. It allows us to spend most of our time on what is every scientists’ true passion: abiding by arbitrary formatting restrictions and figure formatting guidelines that mostly made sense when the printing press had just been invented."
11:20:16 <Jafet> Conferences should just take latex documents
11:20:40 <Jafet> PStricks -- auto reject
11:21:13 <fizzie> The "Neural Correlates of Claustrofobia still a mystery" post was a funny one too.
11:21:26 <fizzie> [[ Fifty severely claustrophobic participants were asked to lie motionless in a small, confined, dark, cramped space with a giant magnet surrounding their body and head, but the methods section of the conference abstract notes that “No participants were included in the final analysis”.
11:21:32 <fizzie> Team leader Randall Thompson is disappointed by the lack of results. “It’s a pity that all our participants ran away screaming before the first scan, because we didn’t even get to the experimental manipulation: Showing them videos of collapsing caves, the insides of coffins and stalled elevators. ]]
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13:00:20 <Taneb> Aaaah suddenly I am cleanshaven
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13:01:58 <boily> good weird morning!
13:02:14 -!- metasepia has joined.
13:02:15 <Taneb> boily, context: I've just shaved
13:02:31 <boily> with what kind of razor?
13:04:37 <boily> aaaah, stil on the motorised side of the shave.
13:05:05 <boily> I haven't made the switch yet either. I'm happy with my PT925, with soap and lube vaporisers.
13:05:17 <boily> (those two make a real difference. no burn!)
13:06:07 <Taneb> I don't get a burn with my shaver dry
13:06:11 <Taneb> But that may just be me
13:07:07 <boily> my skin is of subpar quality. that's canadian manufacturing for you...
13:07:30 <Taneb> I have finest Dutch skin
13:07:40 <Taneb> Assembled in the UK
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13:17:52 <Taneb> My free trial period on BazQuux has expired :(
13:21:38 <Taneb> On the other hand, I just found some biscuits
13:22:02 <Taneb> On the other other hand, the biscuits have gone soft and taste awful
13:22:36 <fizzie> On the tiny hand, "BazQuux" sounds kinda like "biscuits".
13:24:04 <boily> on the æon hand, particle man.
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13:55:38 <nooodl> cute: wolfram alpha can parse 3^3^3^3^3^3, but not 3^3^3^3^3
13:56:03 <Taneb> But can it parse the meaning of love?
13:56:23 <nooodl> i had to input log_3(3^3^3^3^3^3)...
13:57:32 <Taneb> Does (3^3^3^3^3) work?
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13:59:25 <nooodl> also 3^3^3^3 works but 3^(3^3^3^3) doesn't
14:05:45 <boily> what about 3↑↑↑↑3?
14:11:48 <Jafet> http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/93222/is-22-7-equal-to-the-pi-constant
14:12:01 <Jafet> "No, pi is not equal to $22/7$."
14:16:35 <Bike> Jafet: why did that go from "it's not rational" to "it's transcendental" like that
14:20:34 <Jafet> % 22/7 - Integrate[(x^4 * (1 - x)^4)/(1 + x^2), {x, 0, 1}]
14:52:42 <boily> ah? we have a bot bound to «"»? tmyk...
14:53:44 <boily> meh. I'm feeling very queasy here, walking ASCII and flooding the channel.
14:54:16 <boily> Jafet: you are not a bot. repress your metallic side and follow the way of the meatbag.
14:56:34 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ), blsqbot !
14:56:55 <EgoBot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
14:56:59 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
14:57:02 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
14:57:09 <elliott> boily: major bug in your bot here
14:57:38 <boily> I know. my bot is becoming more and more outdated. even my coworkers are putting pressure on me to update it.
14:58:05 * boily reassures metasepia "don't worry, I'll update you... who's a good bot? who's a good bot? yes you are"
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15:58:38 <fizzie> fungot: Are you a good bot too?
15:58:38 <fungot> fizzie: like 216? i think that's what the antichrist is supposed to be
16:00:17 <fizzie> Antichrist: the best bot.
16:23:52 <kmc> shachaf: probably not
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16:35:35 <olsner> I wonder if ὄχλος from http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ochlocracy is the oklo in oklopol
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16:38:26 <olsner> fungot: what do you think?
16:38:26 <fungot> olsner: ( which x is in the standardization surrounding what's done with the 10000versary. sorry, this is only meant for system errors
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16:42:25 <fizzie> fungot: Always as helpful.
16:42:25 <fungot> fizzie: hardly. infix operators are much simpler to deobfuscate than that
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16:46:09 <kmc> awesome, Rust has a case where x == y is fine but y == x is a type error
16:46:40 <shachaf> Better than a runtime error.
16:50:20 <kmc> auto-dereference only applies on one side of ==, so if you do let x: ~str = ...; then "foo" == x works but x == "foo" doesn't
16:50:48 <fizzie> Is "~str" pronounced "worm-string"?
16:50:49 <kmc> the type of "foo" is &'static str (best language ever??)
16:50:55 <kmc> fizzie: I hope so
16:51:06 <shachaf> That reminds me of std::string behavior in C++.
16:51:16 <kmc> which bit?
16:51:19 <olsner> doesn't that lead to backwards comparisons? "if foo is string" etc
16:57:31 <zzo38> Rust might be pretty good due to having macros.
16:57:34 <shachaf> Well, I guess the C++ thing isn't really the same. You can have both "s" == x or x == "s", just not e.g. "s" == "t".
16:57:36 <zzo38> But, I don't know.
16:58:04 <shachaf> And it's for a different reason anyway.
16:58:16 <zzo38> I like the macros and some of the other features of BLISS.
16:59:18 <shachaf> kmc: People aren't keeping the Rust spec up to date. :-(
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17:04:09 <boily> random generic question: do anyone of y'all have experience with openerp?
17:04:44 <olsner> that's not ERP as in enterprise resource planning, is it?
17:05:00 <kmc> shachaf: there's a Rust spec?
17:05:15 <boily> olsner: I... um... eh... well...
17:05:30 <fizzie> boily: "Aren't you afraid you'll catch something?"
17:06:15 <shachaf> Well, http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/rust.html
17:06:20 <fizzie> Lerp, short for linear ERP-olation.
17:06:38 <kmc> shachaf: oh, that. no, it's not up to date
17:06:41 <shachaf> Not exactly a spec, but it's apparently full of mistakes and people aren't keeping it up to date.
17:06:43 <boily> fizzie: bah, humbug.
17:06:58 <kmc> apparently the precedence of 'as' is in between + and *
17:07:30 <kmc> due to people being confused about the precedence and modifying the compiler as a solution
17:08:22 <fizzie> Is the predence of & lower than == so that a & 0xff == 42 is a & (0xff == 42), like in C, too?
17:09:01 <boily> there should be a language where the precedence of ( is different from )'s precedence.
17:14:08 <Gregor> <shachaf> kmc: People aren't keeping the Rust spec up to date. :-( // The best way to keep up to date with Rust is to chat with Mozilla folks at conferences ;)
17:14:58 <Gregor> @tell oerjan Because somebody asked for it.
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17:15:50 <Gregor> I'm not here you don't see me ._.
17:16:14 * boily blindfolds himself
17:16:22 <kmc> Gregor: I just got back from the weekly Rust design meeting with the core team; I think that might be better ;)
17:16:25 <boily> now I can't not see you, therefore you're there.
17:16:35 <Gregor> kmc: I should hope so!
17:17:32 <olsner> kmc: arguably that constitutes chatting with Mozilla folks at a conference
17:17:41 <elliott> Gregor: who asked for the dreadful colour
17:17:45 <elliott> assuming this is about the colour
17:17:47 <kmc> a video conference :)
17:18:04 <Gregor> elliott: It is, and I shall refrain from specifying to protect the guilty.
17:18:20 <elliott> Gregor: spill the beans. they need a slap.
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17:18:31 <Gregor> Honestly, I no longer recall.
17:18:51 <elliott> how about make the log background hot pink next
17:18:57 <elliott> everyone gets to choose a colour for a while right
17:19:40 <elliott> deadly serious here. bring on the pink logs
17:20:18 <Gregor> elliott: Thanks for the suggestion, done.
17:20:34 <elliott> i dig this a lot more than the grey
17:20:47 <elliott> though the timestamps are a little hard to see
17:21:11 <fizzie> The red hilight of the selected comment is pretty nice on the pink.
17:22:26 <boily> what the AAAAAAAAARGH!
17:22:49 <elliott> Gregor: what inspired the choice of yellow
17:23:35 <Gregor> It's actually lime green, supposedly.
17:23:46 <elliott> it looks yellow on the pink
17:24:29 <elliott> Gregor: i bet those #ai people are like what the FUCK is up with our logs
17:24:34 <Gregor> No, it looks yellow to me too.
17:24:45 <elliott> well your sense of taste is broken
17:24:47 <elliott> so maybe your sight is too
17:25:01 <Gregor> But I'm wearing glasses.
17:25:07 <Gregor> Therefore my sense of sight is REPAIRED.
17:25:27 <doesthiswork> perhaps our eyes are blending the text color with the background color
17:25:29 <elliott> http://codu.org/logs/log/_weaaM/2013-05-08 what the heck
17:26:03 <Gregor> elliott: Idonno, somebody must have invited it.
17:28:07 <zzo38> I suppose you could also disable the color on the client, or use the raw log file
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17:41:33 <fizzie> Eyes are liars. (E.g. if you put on red-filter glasses, everything looks red initially, but after a minute or so things will start turning yellow.)
17:42:37 <zzo38> Isn't it your mind that turns yellow?
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17:49:50 <doesthiswork> zzo38: we don't need to devolve into hofsteader like conversation here.
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18:05:42 <Vorpal> <Gregor> No, it looks yellow to me too. <-- what looks yellow?
18:06:00 <Gregor> Vorpal: Sorry, I already put it back to normal ;)
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18:07:57 <fizzie> I missed it too, but if I "Inspect-Element" the text to "lime" and background to "pink", it looks green to me. (Though I think this pink is not as pink.)
18:07:58 <elliott> the grey was there for weeks and you give me like an hour
18:08:15 <Lymia> http://paste.strictfp.com/38747
18:08:17 <Lymia> I hate Java programmers
18:08:54 <Gregor> I hate AbstractFactoryWorkerListQueueFactoryIterators
18:08:57 <Vorpal> Lymia, looks like pretty standard java
18:09:11 <Vorpal> Not sure why it is a singleton
18:09:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm sure it's for efficiency.
18:09:39 <elliott> our topic is so noisy right now
18:09:42 <fizzie> Can't be having lots of memory allocation for all those exceptions.
18:09:43 <Lymia> Why is the static final instance private with an accesser?
18:09:56 <Lymia> public final class ChecksumException extends ReaderException { public static final ChecksumException instance = new ChecksumException(); }
18:10:11 <fizzie> Lymia: So that you can "change" the "implementation".
18:10:12 <elliott> was the tunes link there because of glogbot outages or such?
18:10:18 <Lymia> In fact, looking at the library, this is a rare case.
18:10:23 <Lymia> public final class ChecksumException extends ReaderException { }
18:10:34 <fizzie> Lymia: Maybe later you'll want to make it a doubleton instead; it's good to have a getter.
18:10:55 <metasepia> A pair of cards that are the only ones of their suit in a hand dealt to a player.
18:11:28 <fizzie> boily: It's this thing where you have two of the objects, and you return either of them e.g. in a round-robin manner, or based on the low bit of the thread id, or something.
18:12:43 -!- elliott has set topic: Life's just a mood ring we're not allowed to see | 22nd IOCCC opens August 1: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
18:12:47 <boily> uhm... sounds like a weird proxy mashup for remote distributed resources.
18:12:52 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Are you sure you don't? Well, OK, then
18:13:01 <fizzie> boily: I just made it up. But I'm sure it exists.
18:13:52 <boily> fizzie: the more I think about it, the more it sounds like a good ol' regular object pool. you just have the kiddie version with a doubleton.
18:14:11 <fizzie> boily: Well, kiddie pools are quite popular.
18:14:14 <boily> (and that thing about the thread ID lsb is devious enough to be accepted general best practice)
18:14:37 <boily> fizzie: I have good memories of splashing in a backyard when I was a wee one.
18:15:23 <doesthiswork> zzo38: We don't /need/ to. If you want to, then you can talk about whatever self referential sillyness you wish.
18:16:53 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Well, I have nothing else to write about such thing either at this time.
18:17:58 <zzo38> I like that kind of things
18:18:19 <shachaf> zzo38: You should make zzo38computer.org navigable via http.
18:18:49 <zzo38> shachaf: No, I don't want to, at this time. If you know the filename then you can access it.
18:19:03 <shachaf> zzo38: But I don't know the filename.
18:19:18 <zzo38> (The HTTP isn't organized well enough that I could even add a navigation in a reasonable way)
18:19:30 <shachaf> zzo38: Maybe you can just run some sort of HTTP->gopher gateway?
18:19:40 <shachaf> So people without gopher clients can look around.
18:19:49 <zzo38> No, I don't want to, I don't want any spam messages on.
18:21:18 <shachaf> adjunctions library: Adjunctions
18:22:54 <zzo38> There is a few files that is writable and I don't want a lot of people to put a spam message (since spambots are usually HTTP and SMTP) Also it can try to somewhat encourage to install (or, more preferably, to write) a gopher client.
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18:29:37 <HackEgo> aoeu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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18:30:53 <fizzie> #esoteric: scaring off newcomers since [insert year].
18:31:59 <Bike> imo if they can't take it they're weak
18:33:02 <zzo38> Bike: I suppose so.
18:33:06 <kmc> kiddie pools and doubletons o_O
18:34:00 <shachaf> zzo38: You can make a read-only kind of gateway.
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18:34:19 <shachaf> I don't care about writing. I just want to see the Content.
18:34:42 <shachaf> Also I tried multiple gopher clients and none of them worked with your server.
18:37:23 <Gracenotes> what the hell is the other kind of esoterica, anyway
18:37:39 <shachaf> Gracenotes: try #esoteric on irc.dahl.net.
18:37:52 <Gracenotes> connect to a server other than freenode? you are crazed
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18:39:18 <zzo38> shachaf: Some of them have a bug, but you can try using the "root" selector string instead of an empty one if that helps. (Also, every client I have tried does work.)
18:40:07 <shachaf> I'd rather use my web browser.
18:40:59 <zzo38> You can install Overbite if you are using Firefox.
18:41:10 <zzo38> (I know that one works.)
18:41:55 <shachaf> And I don't like installing firefox extensions anymore.
18:43:36 <zzo38> If you have netcat, you can easily download a file from any gopher server using that too; there are no headers so to download a file you just echo selector_string | nc example.org 70 > program.txt or whatever; if you have UNIX you can easily make something like this, if you don't want to install anything else.
18:44:43 <Vorpal> zzo38, what if you are on a phone or tablet?
18:44:46 <fizzie> shachaf: How about the existing general-purpose gopher gateways you use with a browser? Wouldn't one of those work?
18:44:52 <Vorpal> zzo38, I don't know any android gropher client?
18:45:56 <zzo38> fizzie: No, they are blocked. You can create a private gateway if you want, though.
18:46:04 <fizzie> zzo38: At least http://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/ seems to work for zzo38computer.org -- based on a sample of N=1 files.
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18:46:17 <shachaf> fizzie: Great, now he'll block it.
18:46:21 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, that one works.
18:46:34 <fizzie> shachaf: Just doing my duty here.
18:46:42 <zzo38> And no I won't block that one for a few reasons, one being their policy for search engines and another being Veronica.
18:48:25 <shachaf> Except really slow. Not sure which thing is being slow.
18:48:40 <fizzie> "Also, to reduce abuse of Floodgap's seriously overloaded DSL uplink, the datalink is rate limited --"
18:48:40 <zzo38> However, using it isn't recommended if you have another way, and it is recommended to get another way please!
18:49:08 <Vorpal> I can't imagine that many people use it
18:49:15 <Vorpal> Who cares about gopher
18:49:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think zzo38 does.
18:49:27 <zzo38> Vorpal: There is Overbite for Android too I think, although you have to download it from their webpage you cannot use the app store. Last time I checked (someone else installed it on their device; I don't have one) it has a bug causing it to sometimes cut off the last character of a line. (It is completely unrelated to the Overbite Firefox extension)
18:49:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: The people who maintain Floodgap, I think.
18:50:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, okay, but not many people apart from those. A handful of enthusiasts
18:50:10 <zzo38> There are many other gopher servers too I think; at least 100.
18:50:33 <Vorpal> There are probably billions of HTTP servers
18:50:47 <zzo38> Still it isn't extremely common, but you do find it used sometimes.
18:51:02 <zzo38> Telnet servers may be more common then gopher servers, though.
18:51:03 <shachaf> fizzie: Hmm, it seems not to show titles or something?
18:51:08 <Vorpal> Rarely. You and floodgap are the only ones I know
18:51:13 <shachaf> E.g. take one of the quizzes at http://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/gw?gopher://zzo38computer.org:70/1quiz.menu*b
18:51:28 <Vorpal> zzo38, most likely. A lot of routers and such have telnet interfaces for debugging
18:51:48 <Vorpal> I know my netgear router does
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18:52:09 <zzo38> Vorpal: Although I mean telnet services on the internet, such as ASCII Star Wars, Synchronet BBS systems, etc
18:53:29 <fizzie> shachaf: That would appear to be true.
18:53:44 <fizzie> shachaf: Well, you get a combination of a quiz and a Jeopardy session with the same price.
18:54:05 <shachaf> zzo38: gopher://zzo38computer.org:70/1external/humor looks like it has a broken link.
18:54:18 <boily> according to the Voice of Zzo38, I'm an epic nerd.
18:54:55 <zzo38> boily: I didn't write that one about epic nerd.
18:55:34 <zzo38> shachaf: Correct; I will remove it. I do have a mirror of those files anyways.
18:56:23 <zzo38> shachaf: Thank you for notifying me; I fixed it.
18:58:00 <zzo38> If you have Windows, or some way of compiling a VB6 program that uses Windows API and other features, in your computer, then you can try VisGopher.
18:58:09 <boily> so, according to the Voice of the Voice of Zzo38, I'm still an epic nerd.
18:59:02 <zzo38> boily: Yes, OK, that is it, I suppose.
19:01:28 <zzo38> No, it had an error in it; it works now.
19:01:38 <zzo38> Refresh the results page.
19:02:24 <zzo38> It might say something else now, possibly.
19:02:51 <boily> but, but... I like being a nerd.
19:03:12 <boily> and I can live until 70! (bleh)
19:03:30 <zzo38> These quizzes aren't very accurate.
19:03:55 <zzo38> And if you don't like the new result then try changing the selector string and see what happens...
19:04:17 <Vorpal> Why do so many splash screens insist on showing up centered on the entire of the desktop, as opposed centered onto a physical monitor...
19:04:29 <zzo38> (I got -135 (epic nerd) on the corrected one)
19:04:52 <shachaf> zzo38: Why is Tides empty?
19:05:42 <zzo38> shachaf: The tides program stopped working for some reason. I could remove that option until I am able to fix it.
19:06:14 <metasepia> CYUL 301800Z 21016KT 30SM BKN040 BKN090 22/14 A3008 RMK CU5AC1 TCU ASOCTD SLP185 DENSITY ALT 700FT
19:06:29 <boily> zzo38: looks like you draw from the same source as I.
19:07:47 <shachaf> boily: Can metasepia get Internet Quiz Engine support?
19:09:05 <boily> to quote the Great Locomotive of Ancient Times: I think I can.
19:09:15 <zzo38> I don't know how well you can do Internet Quiz Engine in IRC.
19:09:25 <zzo38> If you do, though, I prefer you run a local copy if you can.
19:09:25 <boily> everything's ircable.
19:09:47 <boily> of course I'll run a local copy. I need to have my own obscure quizzes.
19:10:29 <zzo38> The source-code is available and you are free to modify it if you want to, as well, although I would like it if you would share any modifications you might make.
19:12:14 <shachaf> Why do you say "source-code" here but "source codes" in the Gopher menus?
19:13:09 <zzo38> Because I am not a computer program.
19:20:52 <kmc> are you sure?
19:21:51 <boily> let's use SCIENCE!
19:23:07 <boily> zzo38: do you conduct electricity? do you believe in determinism? how do you feel about brownouts?
19:26:24 <Bike> are there people that don't condut electricity
19:27:02 <boily> I should have been clearer: conduct electricity significantly better than the average.
19:27:20 <metasepia> NZSP 301750Z 02011KT 3200 IC BR OVC015 M61/ A2806 RMK CLN AIR 01013KT ALL WNDS GRID
19:27:42 <Vorpal> I forgot what BR stands for
19:28:01 <Vorpal> Anyway that is quite cold
19:28:15 <Bike> all winds are in a grid pattern. good.
19:28:21 <boily> METARs are weird. they have French abbreviations mixed in.
19:29:09 <Vorpal> Bike, I think that means it is not using the standard coordinate system with heading. Since that makes no bloody sense at the south pole, which is what NZSP is
19:29:38 <boily> I think it goes with the base, or territory, or stuff.
19:34:59 <metasepia> ESSA 301920Z 29012KT 3000 -RADZ BKN005 14/14 Q1003 BECMG SCT005 BKN010
19:35:38 <ion> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1jd005/we_are_engineers_and_scientists_on_the_mars/
19:37:58 <zzo38> kmc: Not 100% sure.
19:37:59 <fizzie> Our bedroom clock temperature-o-meter says 28.2 °C.
19:38:36 <zzo38> boily: I have figure out the resistance can be made using a multimeter on my body though.
19:39:13 <zzo38> If you want to ask me if I believe in determinism then you have to be more specific.
19:39:24 <metasepia> EFHK 301920Z 12009KT 9999 -RA FEW040 BKN120 20/15 Q1009 NOSIG
19:39:52 <zzo38> I haven't checked if I conduct electricity significantly better than average, though.
19:41:28 <elliott> NZSP = new zealand south pole?
19:51:13 <boily> ESSA's weather is horrible; zzo38: I'd say anything below 500 kΩ.
19:51:45 <metasepia> CYUL 301900Z 25012G18KT 30SM SCT040TCU BKN090 24/14 A3007 RMK TCU4AC1 SLP182 DENSITY ALT 900FT
19:52:00 <boily> incoming storms! :D :D :D
19:55:37 <boily> meh. the TAF says nothing. :(
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20:53:47 <elliott> Gregor: quick put the log colours back for oerjan
20:57:26 <oerjan> i'm using the txt version, anyhow
20:57:53 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:59:54 <oerjan> my mind boggles at what kind of people prefer that color scheme, though.
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21:00:31 <oerjan> "annoying, but with honor" eh? :P
21:01:01 <elliott> oerjan: no no, I meant the *other* colour scheme.
21:01:10 <elliott> the non-.txt logs are back to boring black on white now.
21:01:22 <elliott> but they were briefly lime green on hot pink.
21:01:27 <elliott> it was much better than the grey
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21:11:52 <zzo38> If you don't need colors then make it not specify the color so that it will use the color in the client,
21:14:56 <oerjan> zzo38: the problem is my browser only allows turning off style entirely. when i do that the formatted logs become indistinguishable from the txt ones.
21:16:43 <oerjan> or did you mean for the website to do that, in which case i agree.
21:19:54 <boily> the best colour mixes are two different hues with the same L in the L*a*b* colourspace.
21:20:16 <fizzie> This has not been the season for batteries here. First there was that explomesseak in the remote control, and now it turns out the + terminal of one of the rechargeable AAAs has turned green, and (even after scraping it off) is having contact problems w.r.t. the charger.
21:20:39 <oerjan> boily: if i had any idea what that meant...
21:21:44 <zzo38> If you do need colors then you should specify both the foreground and background colors on the webpage. If you don't, then specify neither; you can still use other formatting such as italic, bold, emphasis, tables, superscripts, etc
21:22:32 <fizzie> boily: Only if all your observers are CIE standard observers.
21:22:56 <boily> fizzie: bah. D65 should do the work for most of us.
21:23:31 <elliott> can I get certified as a CIE standard observer?
21:24:29 <boily> the New Elliobserver.
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21:29:21 <fizzie> I think you can get a generic tabular observer and then just configure it with the CIE tables.
21:29:29 <fizzie> (Note that the tables are like 1931s science.)
21:30:05 <fizzie> Oh. Well... I'm sure you can replace them with suitable electronics soon.
21:30:12 <Taneb> You can not believe your eyes, how the whole world is filth and lies
21:30:24 <Taneb> And it's plain to see, that evil inside of me...
21:30:33 <Taneb> is on the riii~iii~iiise
21:31:30 * boily whips Taneb with a toast stapped to a watergun
21:32:02 <Taneb> That's... slightly...
21:33:30 <boily> strapped. strapped, says I.
21:34:09 <Taneb> Is the toast strapped to the watergun, or are you?
21:34:52 <boily> the toast. it is strapped to the watergun.
21:38:45 * oerjan sics a purple people eater on boily and Taneb
21:39:10 * boily hides behind Taneb
21:39:18 <Taneb> How did oerjan even get a purple people eater
21:39:21 <shachaf> boily, Taneb: Don't worry, you are't purple people.
21:39:25 <Taneb> What even is a purple people eater
21:40:15 <oerjan> Taneb: it is attracted to ambiguous grammar use
21:40:31 <boily> I must say, Taneb is a very good cover.
21:40:39 <oerjan> oh wait, is that ambiguous (grammar use) or (ambiguous grammar) use
21:40:57 <Taneb> oerjan, I think they are equivalent
21:41:11 <shachaf> If it's ambiguous, is it even a grammar?
21:41:55 <shachaf> oerjan: Then why did you need to sic [sic] it?
21:41:59 <oerjan> shachaf: certainly. in fact it's a nice theorem that it's undecidable whether a grammar is unambiguous.
21:42:28 <oerjan> shachaf: well i had to point out the grammar to it, of course
21:44:27 <oerjan> now it's time for a buffalo buffalo buffalo stampede
21:51:17 <oerjan> shachaf: did you know that an earley parser parses general grammars in O(n^3) time, unambiguous grammars in O^(n^2) time and (almost all) LR(k) grammars in O(n) time?
21:52:34 <shachaf> how earley are we talking? late 1960s?
21:54:19 <shachaf> oerjan: parsers are one of those things i don't know nearly enough about :'(
21:56:58 <kmc> shachaf: hm I likewise don't know much about parsers, but I have unusually little curiosity about them
21:57:26 <kmc> not sure why exactly
21:57:59 <tswett> So I guess Philip Wadler has completely figured linear logic out.
21:58:05 <shachaf> kmc: this is also my situation (though i'm p. sure you know more than i do on the topic)
21:58:13 <oerjan> i had a kind of parser fascination period i think
21:58:27 <oerjan> tswett: wait, recently?
21:58:28 <kmc> iow I feel I know "enough" about parsers
21:58:45 <shachaf> but then sometimes people say "p. cool parser things" and i don't have the background to properly appreciate them or something
21:59:09 <shachaf> i don't know "enough" about parsers. i feel like i "ought" to know more
21:59:51 <zzo38> There is other ambiguous sentence some people have written in here such as "I saw the man on the hill with the telescope" and the other one I wrote "Charities for poor people and monsters with names starting with 'A'" and there are others too I suppose
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22:00:54 <kmc> yeah given infinite time attention etc. i would of course want to know more
22:01:52 <oerjan> Abject Allosaurus Association
22:01:54 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:02:49 <oerjan> i think most of the allosauri may be Alliterating, too
22:03:18 <tswett> oerjan: I don't know when.
22:03:36 <tswett> Not before 1987 but not after 2012.
22:03:51 <oerjan> O KAY THAT NARROWS IT DOWN
22:04:18 <FreeFull> And that's why we don't use English for programming
22:04:50 <Taneb> FreeFull, we use PHP instead
22:05:00 <oerjan> FreeFull: that sentence needs a long anecdote prefixed hth
22:05:45 <oerjan> i think that may be my first hth use today i must be slacking
22:05:47 <lambdabot> I won't; I want to go get some cookies instead.
22:06:07 * lambdabot puts on her slapping gloves, and slaps boily
22:06:20 <lambdabot> I'd rather not; boily looks rather dangerous.
22:06:27 <boily> HA! MWAH AH AH AH AH!
22:06:47 * lambdabot puts on her slapping gloves, and slaps tswett
22:07:10 * lambdabot hits FreeFull with a hammer, so they breaks into a thousand pieces
22:07:48 * lambdabot hits tswett with an assortment of kitchen utensils
22:08:02 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: sequence set-topic shift-topic shootout show slap smack spell spell-all src v @ ? .
22:08:31 * lambdabot throws some pointy lambdas at tswett
22:09:35 * lambdabot is overcome by a sudden desire to hurt dog
22:09:40 * lambdabot smacks FreeFull about with a large trout
22:10:12 <tswett> I like how many different words are, apparently just due to typo correction, equivalent to @slap.
22:10:18 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
22:11:27 <tswett> There's @slap, @slam, @snap, @stab, and @smack, and don't forget @slum, @swap, @slim, @slump, @skip, and @slip.
22:11:51 <tswett> Which is to say ¿qué es the joke?, not ¿cuál es the joke?
22:11:59 <shachaf> tswett: No, it only corrects up to two characters' edit distance.
22:12:09 <shachaf> Those aren't all being corrected to @slap.
22:12:55 <tswett> "I understand what you're saying and I have learned something from it".
22:13:14 <tswett> So @smack, in particular, isn't being corrected to @slap.
22:13:55 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
22:14:47 * lambdabot puts on her slapping gloves, and slaps shachaf
22:16:51 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 a) -> f (f1 b)
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22:18:22 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm thinking your lambdabot knowledge is outdated hth
22:18:53 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm thinking you're wrong hth
22:19:45 <lambdabot> slap <nick>. Slap someone amusingly.
22:19:48 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
22:19:50 <oerjan> shachaf: um that's 3 edit distance
22:19:54 <elliott> looks like smack is an actual defined alias.
22:20:34 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: requested).
22:20:35 <oerjan> lambdabot: YOU HAVE FAILED ME
22:22:45 <oerjan> although that means there are even more options
22:23:01 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
22:23:05 <oerjan> also, can you get lambdabot confused whether you mean slap or smack
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22:29:19 <oerjan> i think if all possibilities are aliases of each other, maybe it should run the command
22:31:43 <oerjan> SOMEONE HAS BEEN DOING STUFF
22:32:11 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
22:32:13 <zzo38> oerjan: I think it should not run the command unless you specify the actual command
22:32:24 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
22:32:51 <oerjan> zzo38: well it is traditional now.
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22:47:44 <shachaf> Bike: advice: don't get into ghc base libraries issues
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23:06:26 <doesthiswork> guys! did you hear? Carl Hewitt proved the consistancy of Mathematics
23:10:48 <zzo38> It is not possible to prove the consistency of mathematics in general, I think.
23:11:07 <doesthiswork> If math was inconsistent there would be both a proof of theorem P and ~P
23:11:21 <zzo38> Well, I suppose that you can prove that it is consistent whether or not it is consistent, but that doesn't mean anything
23:11:45 <Fiora> that proof almost sounds like begging the question <.<
23:11:50 <zzo38> And you cannot prove it within the system either since it doesn't describe everything that is itself and only itself
23:12:11 <zzo38> Therefore the proof doesn't work.
23:12:25 <zzo38> So even if it does prove it consistent, it doesn't prove anything.
23:12:57 <zzo38> Because, is the system you use to prove it consistent or not?
23:14:27 <zzo38> It proves nothing because if it is inconsistent then you can prove everything including that it is consistent, even though it isn't.
23:14:42 <zzo38> So whether you use the same system or a higher system, it fails.
23:15:11 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Yes, but like I said, a proof that it is consistent proves nothing.
23:17:10 * oerjan hereby swats everyone in here who doesn't remember gödel's incompleteness theorem hth -----###
23:17:13 <doesthiswork> Although you don't need to take such a black and white vie of consistancy
23:17:34 <oerjan> (you may choose the first or second at will)
23:17:36 <Bike> i for one guarantee 85% consistency and 0% hobo skin in all my products
23:17:56 <doesthiswork> there are paraconsistant logics where not everything is provable even though some contradictions are
23:19:11 <oerjan> Bike: what about orphans
23:19:25 <Bike> neither confirm nor deny.
23:24:47 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Yes, but then it isn't inconsistent unless everything is provable.
23:26:22 <doesthiswork> zzo38: Interesting. That means that ~inconsistancy != ~~inconsistancy
23:28:03 <zzo38> Paraconsistent logic isn't inconsistent, it just looks like it. It is only inconsistent if everything is provable.
23:29:13 <Bike> i thought "inconsistent" just meant there was some proposition and its negation provable, not all propositions
23:29:17 * Fiora reads about paraconsistent logic -- wow, that's sneaky
23:29:21 <doesthiswork> yes, but it isn't consistent either. So consistantcy must not be a binary relation
23:29:45 <elliott> I wish I understood dual-intuitionistic logic
23:29:58 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraconsistency <-- this was like, surprisingly readable
23:30:10 <zzo38> I think it is consistent, because there are well-formed statements that aren't provable.
23:30:20 <elliott> it seems like you "should" be able to make something like what type theory is for intuitionistic logic, for dual-intuitionistic logic.
23:30:31 <elliott> but I don't know what that would even mean.
23:30:41 <elliott> actually I guess I just stole this idea from cmccann
23:31:12 <shachaf> Well, stealing from cmccann is fine.
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23:31:52 <elliott> also maybe it'd be hideously uncomputable, given that it's dual and stuff.
23:31:57 <Bike> good logicians, great logicians steal from cmcann -- cmcann
23:32:11 <elliott> Bike: going to quote that at cmccann.
23:32:40 <Bike> why would he want to hear something he already said
23:33:57 <Bike> he or she or i don't know
23:37:01 <shachaf> kmc: imo you should have a public key that only works for leaving the house
23:37:38 <elliott> are we talking like, a GPG public key here. the house has its own website, I can't assume anything
23:37:58 <Bike> shachaf means a physical key, which has a GPG key inscribed on it
23:39:02 <shachaf> shachaf means a GPG key, which has a physical key inscribed on it
23:41:35 <shachaf> Bike: what's a limit of a diagram with endomorphisms hth
23:49:24 <Gracenotes> drinking tea is a great way of dealing with real-life stress
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23:51:39 <monotone> shachaf: At that point I'd give up on keys and just break open a window.
23:52:42 <Gracenotes> physical keys have less entropy than... hm... what's something with stereotypically low entropy
23:53:10 <Bike> skipjack *laugh track*
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23:54:45 <Gracenotes> perhaps you could utilize another stereotype of objects in a particular cluster having high intracluster similarity
23:55:08 <Gracenotes> monotone: yeah, even 20-sided dice have less entropy tho
23:55:36 <Fiora> the linux kernel at boot?
23:55:44 <monotone> How much entropy are we talking about here?
23:56:09 <Bike> shit-aqueducts
23:56:11 <Gracenotes> physical keys have less entropy than korean k-pop bands. <- this is good, I think
23:56:22 <Bike> metric kilograms
23:56:59 <Bike> yes. a north korean trap
23:57:08 <Fiora> you could probably just go with "boy bands" or something like that
23:57:19 <elliott> korean k-pop bands from korea
23:57:30 <Gracenotes> well, in particular, the facial variance of Korean female k-pop band members.
23:57:44 <Fiora> that usually ends up being a racist joke :/
23:57:57 <shachaf> monotone: Your nick looks too much like a certain person who isn't you.
23:58:08 <shachaf> I recommend changing it (have you considered "functor"?).
23:58:20 <Gracenotes> it's not a racial joke, my understanding is that effectively they all get plastic surgery.
23:58:23 <Bike> shachaf is trying to induct you into the seven letter mafia
23:58:26 <Fiora> they do that in the US too, though
23:58:51 <Bike> not a real word
23:59:00 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functor
23:59:00 <lambdabot> Title: Functor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
23:59:00 <Phantom_Hoover> monotone, change your nick to sploknee `my gift to you'
23:59:03 <Gracenotes> sure, there are cultural/racial factors at work here.
23:59:12 <Bike> not a real lambdabot
00:00:21 <shachaf> What do you call a thing where f . a = a ?
00:01:13 <shachaf> . is function composition or something.
00:01:27 <shachaf> And a isn't universally quantified here.
00:02:58 <shachaf> I bet this is a fixed point thing!
00:03:16 <olsner> hmm, discoveries of the day: ghc includes its own dynamic linker, and can load plain .o files too ... but only if they have less than 65280 sections
00:03:27 <Bike> in that a is a fixed point of (f .), i guess
00:03:48 <Bike> maybe you could just say "a is a fixed point of (f .)"
00:03:54 <shachaf> Bike: Right. In particular when a : 1 -> X, this is just a regular fixed point (e.g. http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/fixed+point ).
00:04:05 <shachaf> But I'm trying to figure out what the limit of an endomorphism is.
00:04:35 <shachaf> (By an endomorphism I mean a diagram with an endomorphism etc. etc.)
00:05:21 <shachaf> OK, so let's say we have a diagram in some category with an object A and a (possibly) non-identity arrow f : A -> A
00:05:44 <shachaf> A cone is an element E and an arrow e : E -> A such that f . e = e
00:06:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:07:02 <shachaf> A limit is a terminal cone. I.e. a cone (L,r) such that for any cone (E,e) there exists a unique h : L -> E such that e . h = r (uh, is this definition correct?)
00:09:18 <shachaf> A limit is a terminal cone. I.e. a cone (L,r) such that for any cone (E,e) there exists a unique h : E -> L such that e . h = r (uh, is this definition correct?)
00:09:40 <Gracenotes> is this the other kind of esoterica I keep hearing about?
00:10:05 <Bike> only if shachaf is smoking.
00:10:23 <shachaf> A limit is a terminal cone. I.e. a cone (L,r) such that for any cone (E,e) there exists a unique h : E -> L such that r . h = e (uh, is this definition correct?)
00:12:16 <monotone> Is there smoke pouring out of his ears?
00:12:35 <shachaf> OK, let's try a concrete example.
00:12:36 <elliott> wait did I `relcome monotone and/or ask monotone who they are and where they came from yet
00:16:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
00:17:20 <monotone> I assume the "r" stands for "rainbow" given that it displays the message in brilliant Technicolor.
00:17:52 <elliott> we have... a lot of welcomes.
00:18:20 <HackEgo> WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
00:18:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wElCoMe: not found
00:18:41 <HackEgo> Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.)
00:18:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: WeLcOMe: not found
00:18:51 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
00:18:59 <monotone> I think there was one with fullwidth characters too.
00:19:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: konnichiwa: not found
00:19:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ: not found
00:19:20 <HackEgo> ! \ ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ chaf \ define \ delquote \ e \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ gccrun \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ hello \ ?hh \ hyfinate \ hyphenate.fi \ `i \ instalist \ interp \
00:19:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bonjour: not found
00:19:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome.fr: not found
00:19:30 <HackEgo> ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥ
00:19:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome.es: not found
00:19:48 <Sgeo> Fun fact: A tutorial that comes with Pharo 2.0 is broken
00:19:49 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
00:19:58 <elliott> I'm just surprised Fiora managed to forget all the different welcomes
00:20:05 <elliott> after having all of them used on her about five times each
00:20:27 <Phantom_Hoover> and whilst it is still a fact on a technicality i feel it tarries the name
00:20:44 <elliott> well you may have blissfully forgotten the part where you were automatically welcomed like 100 times for some reason
00:20:49 <Bike> the noble name of the O'Facts
00:20:57 <Bike> sgeo has soiled it
00:21:23 <Bike> `run ls wisdom/ | grep welc
00:21:25 <Fiora> elliott: you remember I have like, no memory right <.<
00:21:30 <Bike> `run ls wisdom/
00:21:32 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
00:21:52 <elliott> Fiora: if I said I forgot, would you believe me?
00:22:21 <Bike> `run wget $(pastewisdom) | grep welc
00:22:23 <HackEgo> --2013-07-31 00:22:23-- http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-07-31 00:22:23 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
00:22:36 <Fiora> (because you're my clone etc :P)
00:22:43 <Bike> `? welcome.bork
00:22:45 <HackEgo> welcome.bork Velcume-a tu zee interneshunel hoob fur isutereec prugremmeeng lungooege-a deseegn und depluyment! Fur mure-a inffurmeshun, check oooot oooor veeki: http://isulungs.oorg/veeki/Meeen_Pege-a. (Fur zee oozeer keend ooff isutereeca, try #isutereec oon irc.del.net.)
00:22:50 <elliott> Fiora: I have bad news for you. I didn't forget
00:23:12 <elliott> that welcome.bork does not look quite right
00:23:24 <elliott> those entries shouldn't have the name at the start
00:23:44 <Bike> doesthiswork: what are you, some kinda factory apologist? all our welcomes are hand-crafted!
00:24:03 <Bike> is "wit." supposed to be "witness"
00:24:26 <doesthiswork> Phantom_Hoover: At least this channel is consistent I guess.
00:24:48 <elliott> you know if our welcomes were actually hand-crafted we'd type them out ourselves.
00:25:01 <Bike> uh this isn't the stone age elliott.
00:25:27 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i was just thinking, like, that's exactly what "c.f." is for
00:25:35 <Bike> or "cf." if you're a fucking hippie yes
00:25:52 -!- shachaf has left.
00:26:18 <monotone> They're all about free information. Of course they're hippies.
00:26:19 <kmc> an enjoyable activity
00:26:27 <kmc> oh i have voice again?
00:27:08 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
00:27:09 <Bike> elliott: please comment r.e: optimal voice status
00:27:26 <Phantom_Hoover> so anyway i obtained and read THEM: adventures with extremists by jon ronson and it is very good
00:32:29 <oerjan> <elliott> those entries shouldn't have the name at the start <-- i guess someone used `learn without understanding.
00:33:06 <elliott> learning without understanding. that's deep
00:40:48 <Sgeo> World announcer
00:40:48 <Sgeo> on: WindowOpened
00:40:49 <Sgeo> to: [:ea | ea inspect. Transcript show: 'A new window was opened';cr].
00:41:09 <Sgeo> oops meant to paste a link to a pastebin
00:44:01 -!- karinita has joined.
00:45:12 -!- karinita has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:45:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:47:56 -!- CADD has joined.
00:48:34 <HackEgo> tail: cannot open `+1' for reading: No such file or directory \ ==> bin/ls <== \ #!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^752129 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
00:49:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
00:49:22 <HackEgo> if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^752129 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
00:51:09 <Bike> it has the inode hardcoded. great huh
00:51:40 <elliott> that's to catch indirect ways of referring to the wisdom directory
00:51:44 <elliott> but yes it should just look up the inode
00:52:08 <monotone> `run (echo '#!/usr/bin/tail -1'; echo 'meow meow meow meow') > bin/cats && chmod +x bin/cats
00:52:33 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> that's to catch indirect ways of referring to the wisdom directory
00:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> if you're that committed to pinging a bunch of people you could just do that manually...
00:53:10 <elliott> it's the principle of the thing!
00:53:12 <Bike> yes but huge babies.
00:53:17 <Bike> huge, dorky babies
00:54:41 <elliott> did we get an answer re: where monotone came from. new people are scary. help
00:54:54 <Bike> you never asked
00:54:59 <Bike> you just asked whether you'd asked
00:55:13 <Bike> c'mon elliott keep up
00:55:19 <elliott> Bike. Bike, stay on my good side here
00:55:41 <Bike> you don't have one, hth
00:57:20 <kmc> today people from Microsoft wandered around SF handing out cupcakes to apologize for how shitty IE 6 was
00:57:23 <kmc> https://twitter.com/IE
00:59:55 <monotone> I was planning on just lurking, but apparently there's only so long I can hide before I get a `relcome.
01:01:53 <CADD> kmc: thats amazing!
01:06:31 <Bike> monotone: the fiora contingency, we call it
01:07:13 <monotone> Sounds like the title of an unpublished Michael Crichton novel.
01:08:00 <Bike> "Do Twinkies last forever? Is Iceland made of ice? Things aren't always what they seem. Learn more at http://www.browseryoulovedtohate.com." wow, kmc.
01:10:11 <CADD> Bike: reminds me of http://howfuckedismydatabase.com/
01:10:44 <Bike> yeah but this is an official marketing campaign.
01:10:57 <Bike> "Curious? It's good now. No, really."
01:12:38 <Fiora> gosh, why are microsoft marketing campaigns so like, strangely amusing
01:12:46 <Fiora> it feels like they're from an alternate universe that's slightly different from ours
01:13:00 <monotone> Exhibit A: Jerry Seinfeld commercials.
01:13:20 <CADD> Fiora: but see, we are still in the same universe. because that is the best that MS can come up with!
01:14:14 <kmc> to be fair I think IE is actually good now
01:14:24 <Bike> this campaign is pretty lulzy nonetheless
01:15:54 <monotone> I stopped being surprised when my JavaScript started working on it the first time, so I guess that's a win.
01:17:04 <CADD> monotone: they are trying to get you to use silverlight!
01:18:59 <Bike> whoa they're missing a huge market there
01:20:05 <CADD> lol, i would never run ie on my linux boxes, even if i could
01:20:56 <kmc> FreeFull: even with Wine?
01:21:12 <CADD> oh man, whenever i work on a linux box i always bring linux to windows
01:21:23 <FreeFull> I don't think the newest IE will
01:21:40 <kmc> I bet they use undocumented APIs
01:21:48 <kmc> somebody was talking about how the only way to Valgrind windows programs is to run them in Wine
01:22:17 <Bike> do browsers form a poset
01:22:24 <CADD> kmc: really? thats actually really interesting
01:22:37 <CADD> Bike: depends on what you are measuring
01:22:43 <kmc> Bike: my brain chip informs me that Firefox is the best one
01:22:58 <FreeFull> I should try running valgrind on a haskell program
01:23:19 <Bike> kmc: can i get a brain chip....
01:24:46 <monotone> `run (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo 'echo "$@" | tr A-Za-z0-9 [A*26][a*26][4*10]') > bin/aaaaaaaaa && chmod +x bin/aaaaaaaaa
01:25:06 <kmc> FreeFull: hm that could be fun
01:25:12 <monotone> `aaaaaaaaa Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet 12345.
01:25:13 <HackEgo> Aaaaa aaaaa aaaaa aaa aaaa 44444.
01:26:12 <kmc> that's like the buzzfilter
01:26:28 <kmc> also did not know that tr supports A*26 syntax!
01:26:35 <kmc> learn somethin new everyday
01:27:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: afaiac the bin/ls is only meant to catch naive attempts to list wisdom/ , but it tries to be permissive in how the directory itself is referred to because newbies don't always choose the shortest forms. afaict it works for its purpose.
01:27:30 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr \ var
01:28:02 <monotone> kmc: I went looking on the man page because it was either that or piping through tr multiple times. (Or `tr A-Z AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA`...)
01:29:35 <monotone> I feel like continually tossing useless stuff into bin/ on my second day here is a bit gauche, though, so I'll stop.
01:31:19 <oerjan> `addquote <monotone> I was planning on just lurking, but apparently there's only so long I can hide before I get a `relcome.
01:31:22 <HackEgo> 1077) <monotone> I was planning on just lurking, but apparently there's only so long I can hide before I get a `relcome.
01:32:06 <kmc> tr a-Z "[`perl -e "print 'A'x26"`]"
01:32:23 <Fiora> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB5txqIl8jQ microsoft's commercials are just so bizarre these days
01:32:50 <Fiora> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr3dFSzh1yU just I I really don't know what they were thinking
01:32:57 <kmc> i like the dubstep IE commercials
01:33:02 <kmc> and by "like" I mean "enjoy making fun of"
01:33:15 <elliott> Fiora: are Microsoft's commercials nowadays any more baffling than, um, the rest of Microsoft nowadays
01:33:18 <Fiora> oh gosh, they made dubstep IE ones too?
01:33:28 <kmc> anyway obligatory observation that this conversation proves they are good commercials
01:33:29 <Fiora> do they suddenly have like, marketing managers who really really love dubstep?
01:33:44 <kmc> I think they have marketing managers who love whatever was cool 1-2 years ago
01:33:49 <Fiora> I don't think that it makes them good commercials unless people actually buy them
01:33:53 <Fiora> and I don't think people bought the surface
01:34:01 <kmc> yeah it doesn't actually prove it, but it suggests it
01:34:12 <kmc> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFE4rkSaKOY dubstep IE commercial
01:34:25 -!- quintopia has joined.
01:34:29 <Fiora> like there was that huge focus on ads during the tech bubble right? and superbowl ads and stuff
01:34:32 <kmc> drop at 0:30
01:34:40 <Fiora> and like, everyone watched and talked about them and everyone was making a big deal and then they all went out of business anyways
01:34:43 <monotone> tr A-Z `jsc <<< "new Array(27).join('A')"`
01:36:05 -!- Frooxius has joined.
01:36:42 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o kmc.
01:38:55 <FreeFull> tr A-Z `dd if=/dev/urandom bs=1 count=26 | tr -c '' A`
01:39:08 <oerjan> dammit first time i make pizza in weeks and i forget to adjust the oven properly.
01:41:09 <oerjan> at least the temperature is correct, so hopefully no major difference.
01:41:21 <CADD> Fiora: reminds me of highschool musical..
01:41:22 <kmc> quintopia: by being the best
01:41:39 <kmc> elliott you're raising the \rainbow{CHANNEL TEMPERATURE}
01:41:43 -!- kmc has set channel mode: -o kmc.
01:42:17 <quintopia> how did you get ops kmc? you're not so great as that.
01:42:33 * oerjan pours liquid nitrogen onto the other ops
01:42:45 <elliott> quintopia: I bestowed them upon him
01:42:48 <elliott> because I am so great as that
01:44:21 <oerjan> quintopia: while elliott probably bestowed these ops, kmc also has ops in general hth
01:44:41 <oerjan> which i bestowed, fwiw
01:45:29 <quintopia> i figured as much, but i wouldn't have predicted it.
01:45:52 <quintopia> i will accept the judgment of oerjan the almighty, but not without question
01:46:00 <elliott> oerjan: i take credit for kmc's successful op campaign
01:46:38 <elliott> otoh I credit mnoqy for my successful campaign
01:46:57 <FreeFull> Note that it doesn't actually matter that it's urandom
01:47:07 <FreeFull> Hmm, how would you make it matter?
01:47:48 <monotone> Wait for 26 "A" bytes to come down the stream and pluck 'em out.
01:49:40 <FreeFull> tr A-Z `cat /dev/urandom | tr -cd A | dd bs=1 count=26`
01:51:17 <FreeFull> `run echo Trombone | tr A-Z `cat /dev/urandom | tr -cd A | dd bs=1 count=26`
01:51:19 <HackEgo> 26+0 records in \ 26+0 records out \ 26 bytes (26 B) copied, 0.269565 s, 0.1 kB/s \ Arombone
01:52:41 <FreeFull> I have no idea why it didn't work as intended
01:52:48 <FreeFull> `run echo Trombone | tr A-Z `cat /dev/urandom | tr -cd A | dd bs=1 count=26 2> /dev/null`
01:53:51 <FreeFull> So it's actually working as intended
01:54:23 <FreeFull> You know, you can use dd to do multiplication
01:54:28 <Bike> `run echo TROM FUCKING BONE | tr A-Z `cat /dev/urandom | tr -cd A | dd bs=1 count=26 2> /dev/null`
01:54:35 <Bike> `run echo TROM FUCKING BONE | tr A-Z `cat /dev/urandom | tr -cd A | dd bs=1 count=26 2> /dev/null`
01:54:39 <oerjan> FreeFull: your definition of intent is somewhat lacking hth
01:55:48 <FreeFull> `run cat /dev/zero | dd bs=3 count=4 2>1 1>/dev/null
01:55:54 <FreeFull> `run cat /dev/zero | dd bs=3 count=4 2>1
01:56:08 <FreeFull> `run cat /dev/zero | dd bs=3 count=4
01:56:09 <HackEgo> ............4+0 records in \ 4+0 records out \ 12 bytes (12 B) copied, 0.03546 s, 0.3 kB/s
01:56:29 <HackEgo> 4+0 records in \ 4+0 records out \ 12 bytes (12 B) copied, 0.054559 s, 0.2 kB/s
01:56:58 <FreeFull> `run cat /dev/zero | dd bs=3 count=4 2>&1 1>/dev/null
01:56:59 <HackEgo> 4+0 records in \ 4+0 records out \ 12 bytes (12 B) copied, 0.0012 s, 10.0 kB/s
01:58:32 <Bike> `run cat /dev/zero | dd bs=4 count=7 1>/dev/null
01:58:33 <HackEgo> 7+0 records in \ 7+0 records out \ 28 bytes (28 B) copied, 0.047547 s, 0.6 kB/s
01:59:01 <Bike> not liking the big O here
01:59:08 <FreeFull> `run cat /dev/zero | dd bs=3 count=4 2>&1 1>/dev/null | awk -- '{ print $9 }' -
01:59:54 <FreeFull> `run cat /dev/zero | dd bs=3 count=4 2>&1 1>/dev/null | xargs | awk -- '{ print $9 }' -
02:00:05 <FreeFull> `run cat /dev/zero | dd bs=3 count=4 2>&1 1>/dev/null | xargs | awk -- '{ print $7 }' -
02:00:31 <FreeFull> `run cat /dev/zero | dd bs=1234 count=1111 2>&1 1>/dev/null | xargs | awk -- '{ print $7 }' -
02:00:54 <FreeFull> Much better than using bc or dc though =P
02:02:03 <Bike> `run echo '1234 1111*p' | time dc
02:02:05 <HackEgo> bash: time: command not found
02:02:36 <FreeFull> Huh, today I learned HackEgo doesn't have time
02:02:51 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ canary \ delvs \ delvs-master \ etc \ factor \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ multiply.bf \ no \ paste \ pref \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ \ real0m0.271s \ user0m0.000s \ sys0m0.170s
02:03:45 <HackEgo> echo -n $@ | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | z
02:06:14 <HackEgo> bi: ASCII text, with very long lines
02:06:44 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
02:06:52 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 419 Jun 20 20:39 bi
02:07:50 <kmc> troubleshooting server hardware by binary search
02:09:28 <FreeFull> Gracenotes: How else am I supposed to tell how big files are? dd? =P
02:09:50 <FreeFull> Maybe one should just use dd for everything
02:09:52 <Gracenotes> well, I use -h even when I don't strictly care about the size
02:10:43 <zzo38> FreeFull: Well, it is possible to use dd for everything and this is how CLC-INTERCAL distributions work.
02:10:47 <HackEgo> df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
02:10:58 <HackEgo> rootfs on / type rootfs (rw) \ none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /opt type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sb
02:11:12 <FreeFull> zzo38: I don't think dd is turing-complete
02:11:55 <zzo38> FreeFull: Well, the shell is also used for control
02:13:32 <kmc> if this were 1995 i would say that my two SATA controllers ended up on the same IRQ or something
02:13:37 <kmc> except for SATA not existing, ofc
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02:15:16 <pikhq_> Of course, to an ignorant OS, SATA looks like PATA.
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02:18:35 <FreeFull> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE (PRETTY PLEASE) DO NOT ASK ME TO SEE THE REST OF THIS PROGRAM
02:19:04 <oerjan> is PLEASE PLEASE legal syntax
02:20:26 <zzo38> As long as you don't try to execute that line, I suppose it is.
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02:23:57 <FreeFull> http://smuggle.intercal.org.uk/examples/hello.i
02:25:08 <zzo38> However I think if the program is loaded using punch cards that the computer can read/write, it is supposed to print an asterisk next to the lines with an invalid syntax, but compile the program anyways
02:25:31 <FreeFull> "Note that a future version of CLC-INTERCAL plans to embed a Whitespace compiler inside the standard compiler. When that is done, whitespace will be still ignored by the standard compiler, but it will have a new meaning. We'll change this chapter as necessary when we do that. "
02:25:40 <zzo38> Or something like that; maybe not that.
02:26:07 <zzo38> Maybe it is supposed to print it on a separate sheet of paper; I am unsure.
02:28:52 <oerjan> <elliott> was the tunes link there because of glogbot outages or such? <-- yes.
02:29:51 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to BadBobby.
02:29:58 <BadBobby> (Note: I am not actually Bad Bobby)
02:30:23 <zzo38> I didn't think you are. I think you are supposed to be :Sgeo!~quassel@2002:ad03:4ea6:0:cdc1:17bf:fac6:935c instead.
02:31:07 <kmc> `addquote <BadBobby> (Note: I am not actually Bad Bobby)
02:31:10 <HackEgo> 1078) <BadBobby> (Note: I am not actually Bad Bobby)
02:31:36 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> If you want to ask me if I believe in determinism then you have to be more specific. <zzo38> I haven't checked if I conduct electricity significantly better than average, though.
02:31:39 <HackEgo> 1079) <zzo38> If you want to ask me if I believe in determinism then you have to be more specific. <zzo38> I haven't checked if I conduct electricity significantly better than average, though.
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02:32:41 <oerjan> Gracenotes: it's ok Sgeo will change back to ipv4 once it's no longer used by anyone
02:33:20 <zzo38> A few gopher servers are IPv6 only, such as the one for INTERCAL
02:33:42 <BadBobby> I was hoping someone would recognize this name
02:35:32 <BadBobby> http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2010-09/14/eve-online-heist
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02:49:22 <kmc> now everything works except that one of the two (identical) SATA cards is super slow when the BIOS or GRUB is talking to it, but it's fine when linux is talking to it
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03:26:15 <shachaf> What is the free category on the quiver •↺ ?
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03:26:33 <shachaf> Is it naturals or conaturals or what?
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03:30:54 <mnoqy> looks like the naturals to me
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03:31:24 <HackEgo> smlist (415): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
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03:40:33 <shachaf> when can we expect the next `olist update
03:41:44 <Sgeo> You can start expecting it now. There's a good chance that it will update at some point in the future.
03:41:58 <Sgeo> As such, the expectation is unlikely to be incorrect
03:42:16 <Sgeo> (As in, expectation comes into being now, blah)
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04:06:40 * shachaf mixes some prime noise into #esoteric
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04:25:25 <kmc> ♫ — ♫ — ♫ — ♫ ０ ２ ５ ８ ８ ０ ２ ５ ８ ８ ♫ — ♫ — ♫ — ♫
04:41:22 <ion> ITYM ♪|♪♪♪♪♪♪|♩♪♩♪|♩♪♩♪|♩𝄽𝄽|
04:50:33 <Sgeo> Windows confuses me
04:50:54 <Sgeo> Win32 functions use stdcall or something and other libraries use cdecl?
04:51:02 <kmc> that's right (?)
04:51:03 <Sgeo> (At least, I had to use cdecl to call the VP SDK)
04:51:18 <Sgeo> Even though those other libraries are on Windows?
04:51:25 <kmc> also they have their own wacky calling convention for C++ where 'this' is passed in a register and everything else on the stack (on 32-bit)
04:53:18 <kmc> ion: what are the penultimate and antipenultimate characters of that?
04:53:25 <kmc> antepenultimate* damnit
04:53:31 * kmc fails so hard at being pretentious
04:54:45 <shachaf> kmc: 1D13D MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER REST [𝄽]
04:55:01 <Bike> quarter rests are complete bullshit, imo
04:55:32 <shachaf> Bike: is there anything that isn't, iyo
04:55:44 <kmc> shachaf: yeah
04:57:55 <Sgeo> NetHack 4 sounds interesting but the server apparently acts wonky
05:01:36 <shachaf> higgledy piggledy / poacher of lincolnshire / playing some music, then, / after a wait, // reading five numbers; the / antepenultimate / reading we heard: zero / two five eight eight
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05:12:54 <oerjan> girl genius is breaking new technological ground
05:13:06 <shachaf> oerjan: oh no should i read that
05:13:58 <oerjan> although i was referring to today's comic in particular.
05:15:35 <shachaf> Bike: time to teach me about coëqualizers imo
05:15:50 <Bike> not with those diareses i'm not
05:16:28 <shachaf> Bike: time to teach me about co-equalizers imo
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08:12:07 <Taneb> Aaaah I have become too dependent on RSS dohickeys
08:12:24 <Taneb> Now my free trial on BazQux has run out I don't know what to do
08:12:57 <fizzie> Pay through your nose, of course.
08:13:32 <Taneb> fizzie, I've... misplaced my bank card
08:21:26 <fizzie> I don't think you're supposed to keep those in your nose, anyway.
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08:46:49 <oerjan> you know _someone_ is going to get a nose operation just so they can pay through their nose.
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09:05:42 <Jafet> I paid all of my savings through my nose and so I will now have to get a nose job.
09:06:41 <Taneb> I knacked up my finger
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12:08:12 <fizzie> This one reviewer recommends four papers that we should consider in our discussion and (presumably) cite.
12:08:20 <fizzie> Three of the four papers are from the same triplet of authors.
12:08:48 <fizzie> It would be interesting to know whether the reviewer is one of those three names.
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12:50:30 <boily> good front wind morning!
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13:00:46 <boily> how ended yesterday's slapfest? were there any casualties?
13:01:54 <boily> no missiles launched? no grey goo cataclysm? no helvetica scenario? :(
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18:02:21 <HackEgo> Rito: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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18:05:57 <kmc> Kwikset is a hilarious name for a brand of locks
18:12:01 -!- Rito has left ("Leaving").
18:13:49 <boily> were they scared away, as the usual relcommed guest? did they leave to inquire upon Kiwkset's hilarity? will they return? all these Questions answered in the next episode of #esoteric!
18:14:06 <elliott> but will we find out their coordinates and body weigh?
18:14:36 <monotone> I assume our contacts at the NSA are on that.
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18:15:23 <boily> ssh! we musn't alert their agents!
18:15:39 <boily> @tell epicmonkey we don't know that you're an NSA agent.
18:16:28 <boily> elliott: the coördinates are part of the current myth arc. only at season's end we'll have a cliffhanger that leaves more Questions open.
18:21:27 <Gregor> fungot: fungot fungot.
18:21:28 <fungot> Gregor: you can't have seen many uses of defmacro can't be expressed
18:21:35 <monotone> Has someone already made the New Yorker joke?
18:27:47 <fungot> olsner: not sure who they are. don't let the fact that it's a good thing
18:28:28 <boily> fungot: we know, even if we shouldn't.
18:28:29 <fungot> boily: giving a name to your variables, you shouldn't insert the continuations directly into the lisppaste text field)) into ( apply func restofthem) i gather
18:29:04 <boily> monotone: what is the NYJ?
18:30:16 <monotone> "Is shachaf an editor for the New Yorker?"
18:31:15 <monotone> They're famous for using diaereses to indicate syllable breaks.
18:33:01 <boily> the diæ̈resises are an integral part of #̈esoteric.
18:43:08 <Bike> has that glyph ever been used in a language
18:43:21 <Gregor> I'd venture to say "no"
18:43:21 <monotone> I'm more concerned about the diaeresis over the #.
18:43:36 <elliott> oh wow, I didn't even notice that until now
18:44:12 <Gregor> I noticed it, found it delightful, but still found the diaeresis over æ funnier.
18:45:52 <boily> wikipedia has no reference to æ̈. let's check unicode...
18:46:42 <Gregor> It doesn't exist in Unicode, that's an æ with a combining diaeresis.
18:47:55 <boily> you sure there aren't any precomposed forms? there's an ǣ and an ǽ in latin extended-B.
18:49:15 <monotone> If the "related characters" section of my character palette is to be trusted, the only other one (case aside) is ᴭ.
18:49:36 <monotone> ᴭ, for when you run out of letters to use for your footnotes, and have something against numbers.
18:49:54 <boily> so nothing in the four latin extended blocks, nor in extended additional. :(
18:52:26 <Bike> why's that called "modifier"?
18:55:41 <monotone> It's in the Phonetic Extensions block, so I'm guessing it's to do with whatever transcription system it's used in. Probably modifies some preceding letter.
18:55:52 <Bike> oh, maybe i've actually seen that.
18:56:29 <monotone> It's certainly nothing to do with IPA...
18:58:06 <Bike> it's uralic. wikipedia has an example, pŭə̆ī̮ᵈt̄ėi for [pŭə̆ɨːd̆tːəi]
18:58:23 <Bike> haha, those are making my irssi modeline fuck up.
18:58:59 <Bike> the ones i pasted.
18:59:07 <Bike> superscript means "very short sound" inthis system, apparently
18:59:21 * boily tries to pronounce that uralic abomination, but ends with a figure-eight knot in his tongue
18:59:37 <monotone> Yeah. It doesn't appear to have Æ, though.
19:00:03 <monotone> Wikipedia tells me some stuff about the OED transcription system and a few others.
19:00:50 <monotone> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonetic_Extensions
19:02:00 <Bike> "Velopharyngeal fricative (snoring sound)" what is eve up with phonetics
19:02:19 <boily> ah, the Infamous Feng.
19:03:10 <olsner> fungot: why do you mismatch parens so often???
19:03:11 <fungot> olsner: maybe it is indeed a concern
19:03:24 <Bike> n!2 [ʗ̃\ʗ̃], fungot
19:03:24 <fungot> Bike: and i'm assuming it is not
19:04:05 <fungot> boily: no that's fine. it just does
19:04:07 <HackEgo> fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone.
19:04:17 <Bike> "The vocal folds discussed above are sometimes called 'true vocal folds' to distinguish them from the false vocal folds. These are a pair of thick folds of mucous membrane that protect and sit slightly superior to the more delicate true folds. They have a minimal role in normal phonation, but are often used to produce deep sonorous tones in Tibetan chant and Tuvan throat singing,[11] as well as in musical screaming and the death growl vocal st
19:05:17 <Bike> "ʞ // velar click // Proposed symbol withdrawn 1970; articulation judged impossible"
19:06:21 <boily> the first times you try practicing kargyraa throat singing, it produces a *very* peculiar sensation in your throat.
19:06:58 <olsner> boily: what's a good way to get started with throat singing?
19:07:31 <boily> there's a freely available tutorial album that cover basic techniques out there. I wonder if it's still online...
19:11:02 <boily> hm. can't find it. I'll have to try and dig out my copy, which may be about 250km away from me at the moment.
19:11:58 <boily> olsner: for now, concentrate on the khoomei style. that's the easiest and most popular. there are some youtube videos for that, I think.
19:12:27 <boily> (throat singing in a shower is fun! but please be considerate of your neighbours and/or family!)
19:22:02 <zzo38> I don't like these IPA symbols; once I made up a different set of symbols where all combinations including "impossible" ones can be made, and you just combine the symbol for "dental" with "fricative" overlapping, or whatever it is
19:23:33 <zzo38> Do you think this is better?
19:24:25 <boily> well, there is ithkuil.
19:25:29 <boily> (ah! the NYer article with Ukrainian extremists: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/12/24/121224fa_fact_foer?currentPage=all)
19:25:56 <fizzie> There's also X-SAMPA. (But if you don't like IPA, you probably won't like X-SAMPA either.)
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19:28:33 <kmc> I wonder if arguing about syntax in #rust counts as working or slacking off
19:28:36 <zzo38> True, I don't really like that either.
19:34:56 <Bike> "How does a one-dimensional genetic code specify a three-dimensional animal?"
19:35:31 <fizzie> Bike: Yeah, isn't there, I don't know, some kind of diagonalization argument against that?!
19:35:50 <Bike> it's a reasonable question in context but gosh if it doesn't sound dumb
19:37:19 <boily> now not only my tongue hurts from that evil uralian tidbit, but my brains too.
19:37:22 <Fiora> doesn't that only make sense if there's a one to one mapping of 3D creatures to genetic codes?
19:37:55 <Bike> wwell the main problem is that yeah it's not like a PNG or something, it really has to "specify" the entire course of development
19:40:31 <Bike> and there's an entire field for this, so, not exactly "R^3 is the same size as R" level
19:41:39 <Bike> no that was pretty good actually
19:41:44 <boily> I know the argument that the cardinality of R is higher than that of N, for example, but what about R and R²? are they of the same cardinality?
19:42:40 <Bike> yeah, they are, just stare at a peano curve until you get it
19:43:39 <boily> I... I'm not sure I'm okay with that kind of voyeurism...
19:44:42 <fizzie> (I just like the word.)
19:44:45 <Fiora> geez, bike, stop ogling peano's curves
19:45:14 <fizzie> Peano Reeves, isn't that some action movie actor?
19:45:16 <Bike> they fill up my vision completely, man.
19:45:20 <elliott> Q: why was the ultrafinitist always dissastisfied? A: he had a very short peano's
19:45:37 <boily> urge. to. munch. elliott. rising.
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19:45:57 <boily> elliott: see, you scared away the Reporter!
19:47:16 <boily> (hm. looks like my definition of munch is very dialectic. you know, when in an action movie someone snaps the neck of somebody else in a quick fashion?)
19:47:23 <elliott> apparently I also killed the entire channel except for boily
19:47:31 <elliott> oh. I assumed you were just going to eat me
19:47:47 <zzo38> Are you good to eat?
19:47:59 <boily> with sriracha, I'd say yes.
19:48:20 <olsner> hmm, what does sriracha actually taste like? chili?
19:49:06 <fizzie> boily: Isn't munch what squares do?
19:49:07 <Fiora> it's a type of hot sauce made with chili pepper paste so
19:49:55 <boily> it's the Universal Pan-Asiatic Chili Hot Sauce. essential for the authentic phở experience.
19:50:52 <boily> fizzie: it's either a wrestling move XOR an old display hack.
19:52:31 <olsner> I thought lexers munched?
19:53:29 <lambdabot> *** "munch" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
19:53:29 <lambdabot> n 1: Norwegian painter (1863-1944) [syn: {Munch}, {Edvard
19:53:29 <lambdabot> 2: a large bite; "he tried to talk between munches on the
19:53:36 <fizzie> Lexers are Norwegian painters?
19:54:14 <fizzie> (Also what are the attributes of a maximally Norwegian person?)
19:55:07 <fizzie> In Neitherlands, they just can't choose from two alternatives.
19:55:07 <boily> `learn lexer is a maximally Norwegian painter. Its squares are munched with chili sauce.
20:00:13 <lambdabot> v 1: chew noisily; "The children crunched the celery sticks"
20:00:39 <Gracenotes> celery sandwiches are maximally Norweigan
20:00:57 <olsner> boily: someone will have a nice time figuring out what the hell that means later on
20:01:12 <fizzie> Huh. There's a Cory Doctorow talk tomorrow.
20:01:20 <boily> olsner: mwah ah ah.
20:02:11 <fizzie> It's " a presentation and a fireside chat", whatever that means.
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20:31:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
20:32:33 <boily> looks like the West Midlands are even more canadian than Canada...
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20:33:06 <olsner> `? d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d
20:33:08 <HackEgo> d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d nothing
20:33:19 <Taneb> boily, Canada hasn't claimed the life of any esolangers
20:33:29 <Taneb> But the West Midlands...
20:33:49 <olsner> I'm not so sure about the West Midlands either
20:33:53 <HackEgo> myndzi keeps us all on our feet
20:34:02 <HackEgo> B.V4!8Jdh8ZOL];D`c;CWG}8\c~ؖӲaq(G%;aȞ=HbΆUF&O}Typ՚V:y=!yQaI'^2a~,fg+z־*%@6ێiNï1S|wp䆍MD$Av.d ;7@;WyxOB؇8vRfA3;qrթ6}2L(-^X"BXΜe6#&u*ն"vD;.dϡm|؋
20:34:16 <HackEgo> ?-2.kvۿ9mȤs<NƽvRhY*J/(m>(2@NJfp/_>8yܟ`odN"m-WwڰK8{Lb,OL7w6Q3RsE!Z[; E^_(.Ukl\4Dںœ$kKmQ
20:34:19 <HackEgo> Հq.@COɵ^@[(%k2(keg\-M)aN֖dVlwaotYIl%Tf0嬟8-U-pnr4d׆@I 9&jY[|-Ʀ>+W]E"c:B`VdyBVA|zLb'J0cnbf<Z5G7`ElaU"<Y#3?zRlԅ&^0-k \ {s/}JêiTs:?+.-EvߥiQ9.Ji_lhK>0w8-S@
20:34:28 <boily> the Universe, it is Talking to me...
20:34:34 <FreeFull> is Ngevd a symlink to /dev/urandom?
20:34:52 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you start reading `olist yet?
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20:35:03 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/Ngevd -l: No such file or directory
20:35:15 <FreeFull> shachaf: Did you just delete it?
20:35:17 <fizzie> Heh, I got "bell in window 3" message due to fungot's rawlog of that.
20:35:18 <fungot> fizzie: i'm not sure how old scsi-2 is, or rather, any computer that has a non-serializable object in its environment
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20:35:26 <Taneb> shachaf, did you start reading `slist?
20:35:29 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access wisdom/Ngevd: No such file or directory
20:35:36 <HackEgo> ` \ `? \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ ⌨ \ ☃ \ ⊥ \ 🐐 \ ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛
20:35:37 <fizzie> FreeFull: It's special-cased nowadays.
20:35:51 <Taneb> Did you... finish reading `slist?
20:36:00 <HackEgo> wisdom/` wisdom/`? wisdom/_̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ wisdom/? wisdom/?? wisdom/@ wisdom/⊥ wisdom/☃ wisdom/⌨ wisdom/🐐 wisdom/̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚
20:36:07 <boily> btw, who were the West Midlands Casualties?
20:36:08 <shachaf> But I surely read over a hundred pages of it.
20:36:26 <Taneb> boily, ais523 and Phantom_Hoover
20:36:32 <olsner> `? _̰̆̓_ÌÌ…ÍÍ̦̻̖ͬÍÌŸÌ–Í¡_ͧ͒Ì͉Ì_͂͋͒ͧ͋Ì̯͙̬̬̦̯̋_̔̉̅ͨÌÌ´Íž
20:36:33 <HackEgo> _̰̆̓_ÌÌ…ÍÍ̦̻̖ͬÍÌŸÌ–Í¡_ͧ͒Ì͉Ì_͂͋͒ͧ͋Ì̯͙̬̬̦̯̋_̔̉̅ͨÌÌ´Íž? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:36:34 <FreeFull> fizzie: I think the special case is separate from the system ls
20:36:44 <HackEgo> See `? for further details.
20:36:48 <olsner> hmm, too many levels of misencoding I guess
20:36:59 <Bike> wisdom lost to the ages/mojibake
20:37:23 <fizzie> FreeFull: It's specialcased in ?.
20:37:30 <boily> `learn mojibake _ÌÌÌ°_ÌÌÍÍ̦̻ͬÌÍÌÌÍ¡_ͧÍÌÍÌ_ÍÍÍͧÍÌÌ̯Í̬̬̦̯_ÌÌÌͨÌÌ´Í
20:37:42 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \ else echo "$1? ¯\
20:37:45 <fizzie> FreeFull: (As an unrelated matter to the special-casing of wisdom-vs-ls.)
20:38:08 <FreeFull> Oh, you're talking about Ngevd
20:38:12 <FreeFull> I thought you were talking about the ls thing
20:38:24 <fizzie> (The rnooodl'ing of all wisdom is: silly.)
20:39:12 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/oerjan: line 1: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA:
20:40:25 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
20:40:42 <shachaf> Taneb: Maybe you should do the same!
20:40:46 <olsner> `translatetoerjan ei saa peittää
20:41:03 <Taneb> shachaf, I think I read over 100 pages of `olist
20:41:36 <HackEgo> See `? for further details.
20:41:39 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 4, in <module> \ data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/__init__.py", line 310, in loads \ return _default_decoder.decode(s) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/decoder.py", line 346, in decode \ obj, end
20:41:43 <Taneb> shachaf, they had just met a bunch of cheery teenage goblins or something
20:41:49 <FreeFull> Oh, I didn't break it after all
20:41:54 <HackEgo> See `? for further details.
20:42:01 <olsner> `? for further details.
20:42:03 <HackEgo> See `? for further details for futher details.
20:42:04 <FreeFull> That's not what I wanted it to output D:<
20:42:09 <olsner> `? for further details for futher details.
20:42:11 <HackEgo> See `? for further details for futher details.
20:42:21 <shachaf> Taneb: Hmm, you'll want to get further than that.
20:42:27 <olsner> `? for further details for further details.
20:42:29 <HackEgo> for further details for further details.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:42:58 <HackEgo> 589) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks \ 619) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory. \ 690) <kmc> damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN \ 693) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming l
20:43:36 <Bike> channel approaching zero signal-to-noise
20:43:48 <FreeFull> `? ♥♥äa¨¨~˝˝˝ÆEŁæłëðǽł“æ→ßðøµ¢ø78ææOeͲ࢟ﻞ茯⦑
20:43:50 <HackEgo> ♥♥äa¨¨~˝˝˝ÆEŁæłëðǽł“æ→ßðøµ¢ø78ææOeͲ࢟ﻞ茯⦑? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:45:24 <boily> olsner: if we've reached that state on Wednesday, Friday will be something to behold.
20:46:17 <HackEgo> .ecnetsixe s'adanaC tuoba erus ton era eW .gnihtemos ro naidanaC si yliob
20:47:11 <Bike> why is everything backwards except the things that aren't backwards
20:47:42 <Gracenotes> we just need another bot who's set off by . who quotes all of its replies `like this'
20:47:44 <boily> Gracenotes: you should come to Montréal.
20:48:20 <olsner> boily: I predict that friday will be a calm day of pointful discussion, possibly even involving esolangs
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20:49:30 <HackEgo> .ten.lad.cri no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht rof -- gnimmargorp tuoba si lennahc sihT
20:49:53 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \ else echo "$1? ¯\
20:50:17 <Bike> imo this is silly and we should get back to our roots of understandable `?s.
20:50:41 <boily> fsvo understandable...
20:51:13 <FreeFull> What I actually did is run all wisdoms through rev
20:51:44 <olsner> perhaps you should've modified bin/? instead
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20:52:34 <FreeFull> The whole point of mercurial is that you can do anything
20:53:06 <boily> there should be a `؟ for reverse wisdoms.
20:53:22 <HackEgo> Fiora is half JRPG fangirl, half SIMD dork, and all sucrose.
20:54:14 <Bike> `run echo '? | rev' >bin/؟ && chmod +x bin/؟
20:54:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ¿: not found
20:54:37 <Bike> fantastic, imo
20:54:37 <fizzie> Bike: Arguments, you know.
20:54:43 <Fiora> what's mysterious though
20:54:46 <Bike> i forget how arguments work.
20:55:01 <Bike> `run echo '? "$@" | rev' >bin/؟
20:55:13 <Fiora> I think they work where you have, like, two people who disagree and they yell at each other a lot
20:55:35 <FreeFull> `run echo '? "$@" | rec | tac' >bin/¿
20:55:41 <olsner> hmm, xchat (probably gtk) and RTL text is quite broken
20:55:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/¿: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/¿: cannot execute: Permission denied
20:56:02 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after `+x bin/¿' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
20:56:26 <FreeFull> `run echo '? "$@" | rev | tac' >bin/¿
20:56:40 <fizzie> I was hoping for upside-down letters.
20:56:52 <FreeFull> I don't think HackEgo has toilet or figlet
20:57:05 <fizzie> fungot: Are you housebroken?
20:57:06 <fungot> fizzie: or right? how can you make it say: put l _itself_ in lambda, let, and having none of them
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20:59:28 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: aren't you supposed to be dead and/or disappeared?
21:00:00 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, so you've escaped the West Midlands
21:00:23 <Taneb> In October I may return to Yorkshire where I was officially born
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21:01:36 <Taneb> If I did well enough in my exams
21:01:52 <boily> time to go unpack and cuddle my freshly delivered ouya.
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21:46:01 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: whyreland?
21:46:42 <Phantom_Hoover> because my parents obnoxiously insist on regularly visiting their relatives
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22:09:20 <fizzie> Plot of the day https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130731-tmp.png and then for some sleep
22:11:26 <fizzie> Okay, so the Y axis is time of day, and the X axis is length of message, and the color axis is the normalized (per-row) count of messages of that length, in logscale.
22:12:05 <fizzie> I was curious if there's a time-of-day dependency in the overall distribution of message lengths.
22:12:13 <FreeFull> fizzie: Curious how there are lines
22:12:28 <fizzie> FreeFull: Bot maximum line lengths, yes.
22:12:41 <FreeFull> Try drawing the same data with the bots excluded
22:12:58 <fizzie> Nooo, I think I'll sleep instead.
22:13:11 <fizzie> Anyway it'd just be the same thing without lines. :p
22:14:06 <fizzie> You can see (some of) the lines at http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_stats.html if you just pick "characters per message".
22:14:15 <fizzie> (Some are past the right end of that plot.)
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22:23:48 <FreeFull> Sleep is for people with unbalanced brain chemistry and a day's worth of short-term memories
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22:29:00 <olsner> FreeFull: sleep is for sleepy people
22:29:14 <FreeFull> olsner: So non-people can't sleep?
22:32:54 <mnoqy> that explains elliott, at least
22:37:02 <oerjan> i personally think elliott is a person, but don't take my word for granted.
22:42:34 <Fiora> elliott's a pretty wonderful person I can confirm
22:43:12 <shachaf> you may be able to confirm that elliott is wonderful but can you confirm that he's a person?
22:43:28 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: are you spying on ##nomic
22:43:42 <zzo38> People aren't the only one that is possible to be sleeping, I t hink
22:44:07 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, i would join but elliott might dispatch some cats to kill me
22:44:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you clearly don't know how cat aggregations work
22:44:35 <elliott> if a single cat were to leave it would be catastrophic
22:45:04 <elliott> that was not intended to be a pun
22:45:10 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: all the cat's will come for you
22:45:42 <Fiora> hee hee I'm rubbing off on elliott :p
22:45:50 <shachaf> All the cat's are out of the bag.
22:46:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: elliott is not actually on ##nomic, although thank you for this information about him, i am passing it on
22:46:25 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/post/50295612485/
22:47:58 <Bike> that gif is freaky
22:48:27 <Fiora> http://24.media.tumblr.com/01d8d878e8b86f16f9a440825abc88e5/tumblr_mmp0alWhSk1rjcfxro1_r1_400.gif I should post more kittens
22:48:34 <Fiora> http://31.media.tumblr.com/4d1391774fdd0bb960d61fe281831f63/tumblr_mj08z0T7nx1qa8b8jo5_500.gif
22:48:45 <Fiora> http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/post/56741666529/
22:49:48 <Phantom_Hoover> i am in grave danger here and you are posting pictures of kittens
22:50:51 <olsner> is that jimmy carr juggling the baskets of kittens?
22:51:03 <elliott> nooodl: be careful about hurting your head when you land
22:52:27 <Fiora> http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/tagged/cat actually this is just good
22:52:34 <Fiora> http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/tagged/rabbit too
22:59:15 <nooodl> http://oklobplant.tumblr.com/ my tumblr subtitle is <marquee>
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23:03:40 <oerjan> nooodl: is that your tumblr why does it start with oklo that is just not right you are not the true oklo
23:04:21 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:05:58 <oerjan> nooodl: those links were awkward to click but it gave me http://log.purrito.net/ which is probably relevant
23:06:12 -!- Bike_ has joined.
23:08:59 <oerjan> hm a bit nsfw further down
23:13:58 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> no missiles launched? no grey goo cataclysm? no helvetica scenario? :( <-- there was a grey goo cataclysm, but fortunately we all got uploaded to the goo. our world's simulation is now one recursive step deeper hth
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23:15:46 * oerjan oozes up to shachaf and absorbs him
23:19:30 * oerjan looks up helvetica scenario
23:26:13 <elliott> oerjan hasn't seen Look Around You either? :(
23:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> you can't talk, you haven't seen the armando iannucci shows
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23:48:14 <oerjan> elliott: only a little. (now it's a little more.)
23:48:46 <oerjan> now i know everything about calcium.
23:49:15 <shachaf> oerjan: do you also know about intelligent calcium
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23:50:17 <oerjan> elliott: roujo wants to know if RPGLE is esoteric enough for you twh
23:50:41 <oerjan> he also linked http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/iseries/v7r1m0/topic/rzasd/sc092508.pdf
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23:52:49 <elliott> and has a confusing acronym
23:53:58 <oerjan> well this came up after i pointed out you might disapprove of the language choice in List<Cat> ehird = new ArrayList<Cat>(); hth
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23:55:11 <Bike> elliott is a list of cats?
23:55:12 <oerjan> elliott: ok i told him you said that