←2018-11 2018-12 2019-01→ ↑2018 ↑all
2018-12-01
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00:08:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: well, there has to be, right? otherwise -O2 would do nothing
00:09:29 <shachaf> I mean, -O2 is advertised as turning on a bunch of optimization flags, like -fthread-jumps
00:09:50 <shachaf> But some things (in particular some optimization that was buggy) can't be turned on or off piecemeal.
00:16:02 <zzo38> Yes, it has to have such a block to turn on the other flags, but that is all that it should do.
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00:36:18 <zzo38> The document for twtxt says there should be a limit of 140 characters per message. Mastodon has a limit of 500 characters. Netsubscribe specifies no limit, although the system administrator can specify a limit in bytes. Do you think 910 bytes should be sufficient?
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02:37:00 <esowiki> [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58520&oldid=58519 * Cortex * (-6) /* ProcessingJS interpreter */
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06:38:52 <zzo38> One thing that Firefox does not seem to do is if you want to enable font loading for SVG and PDF but not HTML.
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08:23:11 <b_jonas> `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/horny-cloud/
08:23:12 <HackEso> pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/horny-cloud/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
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08:24:29 <oren> ty Democracy
08:24:29 <oren> 28 capital: Canada
08:25:26 <oren> hmmm...
08:25:56 <b_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2703699/weigh-cup/
08:25:56 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ehlist: not found
08:25:59 <b_jonas> too
08:26:19 <oren> how would one divide up the surface of the earth into 50 equally-sized pieces
08:27:14 <oren> such that as few countries as possible are on more than one or less than one piece and all pieces are contiguous
08:27:58 <b_jonas> also http://golf.horse/
08:28:02 <oren> er, I guess it's not possible for a country to be on less than one piece so scratch that
08:28:36 <shachaf> `ysaclist 82
08:28:37 <HackEso> ysaclist 82: boily shachaf
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11:11:09 <wob_jonas> Hey guys. You know 8-bit video gaming history, right?
11:11:20 <wob_jonas> I have a stupid conspiration theory, and I'd like you to tell my why it's so wrong
11:15:35 <oerjan> clearly hogwash. if i only knew 8-bit video gaming history i'd show you.
11:16:07 <wob_jonas> It looks like 8-bit games on handheld consoles (GB, GBC) have a somewhat diferent style of graphics tha 8-bit games on TV consoles (NES, SNES). The handheld ones are like a newspaper comic strip, with black outlines and colors that seem vivid now,
11:16:30 <wob_jonas> because the LCD could show those sharp black lines nicely, but you wouldn't see fine distinctions of colors.
11:17:11 <wob_jonas> Whereas TV games have finer shades because the TV shows the colors better, but no outlines, because thsoe would look bad on an old TV.
11:18:09 <wob_jonas> Now look at Earthbound. It's a NES game, but its graphics, especially the world map ones, look like they were drawn for the GBC, sort of like Pokemon.
11:19:57 <wob_jonas> I don't think that game looked good on 1990s TVs. How does that work? Is that why it became such a cult classic later, when people had good monitors, _despite_ that the game interface is clunky and later players feel that, while players at the time it was released (1994 and 1995) might not have?
11:21:16 <int-e> `? you
11:21:17 <HackEso> you? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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11:25:10 <oerjan> `learn You are just a second person pronoun.
11:25:12 <HackEso> Learned 'you': You are just a second person pronoun.
11:26:25 <oerjan> wob_jonas: that wouldn't be a conspiracy theory unless someone actually planned it to have that effect hth
11:26:57 <oerjan> (also, they'd have to conspire while doing so, i guess)
11:27:44 <wob_jonas> oerjan: it's sort of a conspiration theory, because I'm picking up details while ignoring others, and not really verifying the statements I say
11:27:46 <int-e> `? password
11:27:47 <HackEso> The password of the month is most forgettable.
11:27:57 <wob_jonas> and it would be Nintendo who conspired for ... something
11:28:04 <wob_jonas> it's not clear what for
11:28:22 <int-e> `cwlprits password
11:28:24 <HackEso> int-̈e oerjän oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän int-̈e oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän oerjän shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e shachäf shachäf oerjän boil̈y oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän shachäf shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän gameman̈j int-̈e oerjän int-̈e oerjän mromän oerjän oerjän oerjän mroman̈_
11:28:36 <int-e> hmm... anybody else/
11:28:38 <int-e> ?
11:28:55 <int-e> `victims
11:28:55 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: victims: not found
11:29:54 <wob_jonas> the password of the month is bulbasaur with stingers
11:30:14 <int-e> . o O ( The password of the month is PRESENTly unknown. )
11:33:25 <int-e> Hmm, how about "SCALNATUAS".
11:33:51 <int-e> @google SCALNATUAS
11:33:52 <lambdabot> https://zhidao.baidu.com/question/524866668.html
11:34:49 <int-e> Wow, unique result.
11:35:02 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is "SCALNATUAS".
11:35:05 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is "SCALNATUAS".
11:56:47 <oerjan> wat.
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12:03:58 <int-e> @tell oerjan "RREUIDNODLEPEHR" is an alternative but not nearly as pronouncible ;-)
12:03:58 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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13:16:52 * ski . o O ( POTRZEBIE )
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13:31:10 <int-e> ski: hmm that doesn't seem to be following the right pattern
13:31:42 * ski has no idea what "the right pattern" would be
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13:34:33 <int-e> something with parity
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14:24:59 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58521&oldid=58423 * Cortex * (+62)
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14:55:06 <ais523> has anyone looked at The Waterfall Model Online yet?: http://nethack4.org/esolangs/waterfall/
15:02:47 <esowiki> [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58522&oldid=58520 * Cortex * (+62) /* +-=*/!# */
15:04:36 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58523&oldid=58521 * Cortex * (+5)
15:12:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: no
15:12:32 <wob_jonas> ais523: see above about my stupid question on 8-bit video game history
15:12:57 <ais523> I saw it but don't have enough information to answer
15:13:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: ah, so there's a good reason why I didn't know that Waterfall Online page existed. you only linked it from the wiki today. I didn't just miss it or something.
15:13:34 <ais523> yes
15:13:48 <ais523> it's been up for a little longer than that but was too unfinished to be worth linking
15:14:05 <ais523> it's still unfinished, really, but I've stopped actively working on it because I need to get better at The Waterfall Model first :-D
15:28:12 <esowiki> [[Precognition]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58524&oldid=58070 * Ais523 * (-183) /* Syntax */ remove the exceptionn for type inference; it probably doesn't help much and might trigger unintentionally
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18:39:08 <oerjan> @messages-cloudy
18:39:09 <lambdabot> int-e said 6h 35m 10s ago: "RREUIDNODLEPEHR" is an alternative but not nearly as pronouncible ;-)
18:42:01 <oerjan> darn i read ahead in the logs and now i feel spoilered :(
18:42:31 <oerjan> int-e: i tried too hard to decipher it as an acronym
18:44:09 <oerjan> `scramble it should have been not like this, anyway
18:44:10 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: scramble: not found
18:44:12 <oerjan> oops
18:44:16 <oerjan> ^scramble it should have been not like this, anyway
18:44:16 <fungot> i hudhv enntlk hs nwyaya,itei o ebea lost
18:44:28 <oerjan> ^unscramble it should have been not like this, anyway
18:44:29 <fungot> iyta wsyhnoau l,ds ihhatv ee kbiele nt on
18:44:47 <oerjan> *done
18:59:08 <int-e> Oh I was unaware of or forgot about \^(un)?scramble, not sure which.
19:08:52 <int-e> ^shuffle 1234567
19:09:06 <int-e> not this one, hmm?
19:09:18 <int-e> fungot: got fun?
19:09:18 <fungot> int-e: just keep trying to imitate with other bots?
19:09:29 <int-e> ...
19:10:04 <int-e> fungot: perhaps, if there were any other bots to talk to...
19:10:05 <fungot> int-e: so if you have ( define blah ( pi 2) supposed to do. for example, when theres a question or two
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19:10:15 <int-e> and back to normal.
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19:15:04 <shachaf> Fizzle?
19:15:18 <oerjan> it's an lmposter!
19:16:00 <shachaf> There's a book at the used bookstore here called "fizzics"
19:21:15 <int-e> does it do kwantum?
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19:53:59 <esowiki> [[Alchemist]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58525&oldid=58503 * Plokmijnuhby * (+4) /* 0-Rules */ Minor typo.
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20:15:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58526&oldid=56540 * ShareMan * (+2700)
20:15:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58527&oldid=58526 * ShareMan * (-2700) Blanked the page
20:21:33 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58528 * ShareMan * (+2832) Created Page "HARSH" for the programming language HARSH
20:22:15 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58529&oldid=58528 * ShareMan * (-2) fixed typo
20:24:16 <esowiki> [[2B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58530&oldid=31957 * Gamer * (+86)
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20:40:25 <fizzie> That wasn't me, but I actually used "Fizzle" as my nick before the current one.
20:41:57 <oerjan> maybe you were time traveling.
20:43:49 <int-e> hmm, then "were" may not be applicable.
20:45:25 <oerjan> sorry, i don't have a copy of dan streetmentioner handy
20:45:41 <int-e> "Most readers get as far as the Future Semi-Conditionally Modified Subinverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional before giving up."
20:47:14 <int-e> oerjan: Oh you actually remember the name... I only recalled the concept.
20:47:27 <oerjan> MWAHAHAHAHA
20:47:32 <b_jonas> `? dan streetmentioner
20:47:33 <HackEso> dan streetmentioner? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:48:08 <int-e> b_jonas: "The major problem [of time travel] is quite simply one of grammar, and the main work to consult in this matter is Dr Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveller's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations." -- Douglas Adams
20:52:07 <int-e> oerjan: in fact I grepped for "get far as the" ;-)
20:52:19 <int-e> oerjan: sorry, "get as far as the"
20:57:48 <oerjan> `le/rn tense formation//See pitchfork mob
20:57:50 <HackEso> Learned 'tense formation': See pitchfork mob
20:59:40 <oerjan> `le/rn pitchfork mob//Pitchfork mobs tend are a major danger to time travelling grammarians.
20:59:42 <HackEso> Learned 'pitchfork mob': Pitchfork mobs tend are a major danger to time travelling grammarians.
20:59:51 <oerjan> `le/rn pitchfork mob//Pitchfork mobs are a major danger to time travelling grammarians.
20:59:53 <HackEso> Relearned 'pitchfork mob': Pitchfork mobs are a major danger to time travelling grammarians.
21:00:42 <oerjan> `le/rn tense formation//Tense formation: See pitchfork mob
21:00:44 <HackEso> Relearned 'tense formation': Tense formation: See pitchfork mob
21:04:01 <b_jonas> `? tenth formation
21:04:03 <b_jonas> `? tent formation
21:04:03 <HackEso> tenth formation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:04:05 <b_jonas> `? nth formation
21:04:05 <HackEso> tent formation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:04:07 <HackEso> nth formation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:04:31 <b_jonas> `? bent formation
21:04:32 <HackEso> bent formation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:04:33 <b_jonas> `? dent formation
21:04:34 <HackEso> dent formation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:06:38 <b_jonas> `? rent formation
21:06:39 <HackEso> rent formation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:06:43 <b_jonas> `? information
21:06:44 <HackEso> information? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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21:08:32 <int-e> oerjan: shouldn't it be `slwd tense formation//s/$/./
21:08:55 <int-e> or do we have an exception for "See (also)?"?
21:09:23 <int-e> `? oerjan
21:09:24 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
21:09:28 <oerjan> `grwp See
21:09:29 <HackEso> ​`1:`1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <cmd>, except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly the obvious generalization of `4. \ `5:`5 <cmd> is equivalent to repeating `` <cmd> 5 times, then splitting the output into irc-sized pieces. <cmd> defaults to "quote". See `1, `4 and `spam. Confusingly _not_ the obvious generalization of `2. \ burrito:Burritos are like Monads, according to Joe
21:09:35 <b_jonas> `? natural transformation
21:09:36 <HackEso> A natural transformation is a transformation of something containing no chemicals.
21:09:58 <b_jonas> `? roujo's relevant info
21:09:59 <HackEso> That information is stored in an unnamed metal cabinet in one of the top floors of an obscure administrative building with a number that you probably never heard of.
21:11:12 <oerjan> `2 grwp 'See '
21:11:13 <HackEso> 2/9:e. See https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/ \ =@ccc:=@ccc is a great innovation in gcc 6, kept top secret, where inline asm statements can return a value in the carry flag on x86_64. See https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-6/changes.html which keeps this secret, https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-6.1.0/gcc/Extended-Asm.html , https://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=143786977730804 . \ corkscrew:A corkscrew is a
21:11:28 <int-e> `slwd oerjan//sshazyspunctuals#referring to punctuation, of course
21:11:29 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
21:12:16 <oerjan> `n
21:12:16 <HackEso> 3/9: downwards spiral of doom. See mapole. \ croissont supplier:See misspellings of croissant \ degeneration:The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show. See also degenerate. \ `doag:`doag: See `hoag \ `doat:`doat: See `hoag \ `dowg:`dowg: See `hoag \ `dowt:`dowt: See `hoag \ `fetch:`fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. It is a special builtin that cannot be cal
21:12:54 <oerjan> hm it seems inconsistent.
21:12:55 <b_jonas> `? humble
21:12:56 <HackEso> humble? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:12:56 <int-e> oerjan: I See no pattern so far, actually.
21:12:56 <b_jonas> `? humbly
21:12:57 <HackEso> humbly? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:13:00 <b_jonas> `? knuth numbers
21:13:01 <HackEso> knuth numbers? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:13:27 <b_jonas> @oeis Knuth numbers
21:13:29 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A079750 Operation count to create all permutations of n dis...
21:13:29 <lambdabot> [0,4,25,156,1099,8800,79209,792100,8713111,104557344,1359245485,19029436804,...
21:13:36 <b_jonas> what? NO!
21:14:03 <b_jonas> @oeis A007448
21:14:04 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A007448 Knuth's sequence (or Knuth numbers): a(n+1) = 1 + m...
21:14:04 <lambdabot> [1,3,3,4,7,7,7,9,9,10,13,13,13,15,15,19,19,19,19,21,21,22,27,27,27,27,27,28,...
21:14:28 <int-e> @oeis Knuth's sequence
21:14:29 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A079750 Operation count to create all permutations of n dis...
21:14:29 <lambdabot> [0,4,25,156,1099,8800,79209,792100,8713111,104557344,1359245485,19029436804,...
21:14:36 <int-e> weird :)
21:14:42 <int-e> @oeis "Knuth's sequence"
21:14:42 <b_jonas> @oeis name:Knuth's sequence
21:14:43 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A007448 Knuth's sequence (or Knuth numbers): a(n+1) = 1 + m...
21:14:43 <lambdabot> [1,3,3,4,7,7,7,9,9,10,13,13,13,15,15,19,19,19,19,21,21,22,27,27,27,27,27,28,...
21:14:43 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A079750 Operation count to create all permutations of n dis...
21:14:43 <lambdabot> [0,4,25,156,1099,8800,79209,792100,8713111,104557344,1359245485,19029436804,...
21:14:51 <b_jonas> argh
21:14:59 <b_jonas> now you don't know which one of the two it answered first
21:15:04 <int-e> @oeis "Knuth's sequence"
21:15:05 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A007448 Knuth's sequence (or Knuth numbers): a(n+1) = 1 + m...
21:15:05 <lambdabot> [1,3,3,4,7,7,7,9,9,10,13,13,13,15,15,19,19,19,19,21,21,22,27,27,27,27,27,28,...
21:15:11 <int-e> now we do
21:15:56 <int-e> @oeis name:"Knuth's sequence"
21:15:56 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A007448 Knuth's sequence (or Knuth numbers): a(n+1) = 1 + m...
21:15:56 <lambdabot> [1,3,3,4,7,7,7,9,9,10,13,13,13,15,15,19,19,19,19,21,21,22,27,27,27,27,27,28,...
21:16:44 <oerjan> @oeis name:Knuth's
21:16:45 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A241299 Initial digit of the decimal expansion of n^(n^n) o...
21:16:45 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,7,1,1,2,3,6,4,1,3,4,6,1,3,1,3,1,1,3,2,3,5,5,2,2,2,8,1,1,9,1,2,3,4,8,2...
21:18:04 <int-e> eww
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21:18:28 <b_jonas> Concrete Mathematics chapter 3.3 is where Knuth says that he's decided that A007448 shall be called Knuth numbers
21:18:37 <b_jonas> "humbly"
21:19:44 <int-e> . o O ( IM"H"O )
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21:26:38 <oerjan> `? imho
21:26:39 <HackEso> IMHO means "In My Holy Omniscience".
21:29:10 <b_jonas> `? `hello
21:29:11 <HackEso> ​`hello prints variants of hello, world. To control format, pass a single letter as command-line argument. "@"=>"hello, world", "H"=>"hello, world.", P=>"hello, world!", "X"=>"hello, world,", take 1 letter later to s/h/H/, 2 letter later to s/o,/o/, 4 letter later to s/w/W/, lowercase to remove newline.
21:29:19 <b_jonas> I've just edited a stupid typo in that
21:30:13 <oerjan> `dowg
21:30:14 <HackEso> 11659:2018-12-01 <b_jonäs> perl -e open$I,"<",($n="wisdom/`hello") or die; local$/; $c=<$I>; eof$I or die"e"; $c=~s!/d,/d/!/o,/o/! or die "s"; open $O,">",$n or die"O"; print $O $c or die"p"; warn "edited $f;"; \ 11658:2018-12-01 <int-̈e> slwd oerjan//sshazyspunctuals#referring to punctuation, of course \ 11657:2018-12-01 <oerjän> le/rn tense formation//Tense formation: See pitchfork mob \ 11656:2018-12-01 <oerjän> le/rn pitchfork mob//Pitchfork mob
21:31:03 <b_jonas> `? rtf
21:31:04 <HackEso> RTF stands for Rich's Text Format, invented by Rich Burlew. In addition to plain text it supports simple stick figures.
21:31:04 <b_jonas> `? ttf
21:31:05 <HackEso> TTF is the true typography format. All others are heretical.
21:31:09 <b_jonas> `? morphism
21:31:10 <HackEso> A morphism is just a natural transformation between two diagrams of shape 1.
21:32:53 <oerjan> `hello Z
21:32:53 <HackEso> hello world,
21:33:50 <oerjan> `hello B
21:33:51 <HackEso> hello world
21:45:36 <esowiki> [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58531&oldid=57919 * Cortex * (+254)
21:46:57 <esowiki> [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58532&oldid=58531 * Cortex * (+2) /* Cat program */
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21:55:59 <esowiki> [[Y/N]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58533 * Cortex * (+854) Created page with "{{WIP}} '''Y/N''' is an incomplete esolang made by [[User:Cortex]]. The only keywords are <code>yes</code> and <code>no</code>. Commands are started with <code>yes[commandname..."
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22:29:18 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58534&oldid=58489 * ShareMan * (+12) /* H */ added HARSH
22:30:42 <b_jonas> `? no
22:30:43 <HackEso> No means hi.
22:32:03 <b_jonas> `? hi
22:32:06 <HackEso> hi? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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23:45:47 <b_jonas> Just a reminder that the puppy hiatus on Irregular Webcomics ends in 12 hours.
23:49:00 <b_jonas> we don't list every strip since the time they appear is quite predictable: it's always 10:11 UTC on certain days of a week -- the set of days of the week when new comic appears has changed about six times, and we don't know what it will change to next though
23:51:42 <b_jonas> darn no
23:51:43 <b_jonas> I'm stupid
23:51:51 <b_jonas> the puppy hiatus ends in 36 hours
23:51:54 <b_jonas> I'm off by a day
23:52:17 <b_jonas> so it will probably be on W-1, W-2, W-4, W-5 again
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2018-12-02
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00:35:41 <zzo38> I thought of once a rule variation for mahjong that if you have menzentsumo it does not count 1 han but it does reduce your requirement by 1 han (reducing it normally to zero, although sometimes it will still be 1)
00:35:50 <zzo38> What do you think of this?
00:37:23 <rain1> I don't know mahjong so i can't comment
00:37:42 <zzo38> OK
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02:03:16 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58535&oldid=54319 * Ais523 * (+355) /* External resources */ add BrainFlak::Symbolic
02:03:56 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58536&oldid=58535 * Ais523 * (+14) /* External resources */ apparently it needs the http://; also mention the implementation language
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04:31:36 <zzo38> One thing I thought of for SQLite that I don't know whether or ont it would improve anything is sqlite3_str_context() function, which returns a string building object and makes the result of the function to effectively be whatever is then appended to the string, if your program does not call sqlite3_str_reset() or sqlite3_str_finish() on it.
04:44:18 <zzo38> Also, I wrote a shell script to download and compile SQLite
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06:23:45 <zzo38> SQLite does not have a upsert that causes it to become an error if the WHERE clause does not match.
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06:46:21 <zzo38> (One idea is that after the WHERE clause of a upsert you can optionally add "ELSE ABORT", "ELSE ROLLBACK", "ELSE FAIL", or "ELSE IGNORE" (the default if none is specified, which corresponds to the current behaviour).)
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07:15:08 <zzo38> Other suggestions of rule variations of mahjong I have seen include menzenron instead of menzentsumo, and another is "reverse yakitori" where you start without yakitori but if you deal into someone's hand then you do have yakitori.
07:16:01 <zzo38> (You could also do both ways yakitori together: if you win or if you deal into someone else's hand, it can be changed; whichever one applied last is in use)
07:18:15 <zzo38> One thing I thought of also is a variant where red dora is not affected by dora indicators, even if the indicator is four of that suit
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09:48:39 <b_jonas> `makelist bobadventureslist b_jonas
09:48:41 <HackEso> makelistlist bobadventureslist: shachaf
09:48:58 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181201.html
09:48:59 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181201.html: b_jonas
09:49:43 <b_jonas> `makelist ehlist b_jonas
09:49:44 <HackEso> makelistlist ehlist: shachaf
09:50:51 <shachaf> who put me on makelistlist
09:51:58 <b_jonas> shachaf: ask the mercury repo if you want to know
09:53:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: in sqlite, do these new window functions allow you to write a parenthisized subquery that returns the group_concat of a query but with values concatenated in a deterministic sort order given by an ORDER BY clause?
09:53:24 <b_jonas> just wondering
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15:28:35 <limbo_> Is there an explaination for the limes in the wiki logo on esolangs.org?
16:00:19 <fizzie> Not a real one. It's called "trilime", though.
16:03:37 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/logs/2011-05-24.html#l5x 2011-05-25 21:31:34 <ais523> I think the official answer is "it's just an image Graue chose as a placeholder, and people decided they liked it"
16:34:40 <limbo_> ha! I've done that exact thing before, but with a public-domain image of a cactus.
16:34:48 <limbo_> It's a good logo.
16:50:02 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, window functions do allow you to use a deterministic sort order (unlike normal aggregate functions)
17:09:53 <zzo38> That is OK, although I think that a proper logo should be made specific for Free Hero Mesh.
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17:11:17 <ais523> regular expressions can be implemented efficiently by compiling them into NFAs
17:11:27 <ais523> is there a similar efficient compilation technique for regular expressions + backreferencess?
17:11:48 <zzo38> I don't know
17:17:25 <ais523> oh, it's been shown that there almost certainly isn't: https://perl.plover.com/NPC/NPC-3SAT.html
17:17:34 <ais523> 3SAT in regex+backreference :-)
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17:35:29 <zzo38> Another thing I thought of for mahjong is to avoid rounding errors by making all hands worth 25 fu. There may be other ways to do this too though, such as not rounding at all. Since, this rounding sometimes results a hand being worth more for tsumo win than with ron win, even though it is supposed to be same.
17:36:07 <zzo38> (Different hands are still worth different amount of han, but fixed at 25 fu.)
17:36:23 <zzo38> Do you like mahjong?
17:38:57 <int-e> ais523: hmm, why 3SAT when the same code works for SAT?
17:39:16 <int-e> (CNF-SAT if you will)
17:39:28 <ais523> int-e: probably just a case of doing the minimum necessary amount of work
17:39:39 <ais523> you know that implementing 3SAT is sufficient, so you don't notice it works even without the 3
17:40:16 <oerjan> as long as they're SATisfied.
17:40:58 <ais523> that's not even really a pun? SAT is an abbreviation for "satisfaction" already
17:41:19 <int-e> but it has unSATisfactory instances... or something like that.
17:41:53 <ais523> if you wanted a pun you'd have to use SATurate or SATchel or some similarly unrelated word
17:42:02 <int-e> (fwiw, "satisfiability" is the usual term)
17:44:25 <fizzie> As famously used in the Rolling Stones song, I can't get no satisfiability.
17:45:06 <fizzie> (It's about the NP-completeness of the problem.)
17:46:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: deterministic sort order goes most of the way, good. can you use any ordinary aggregate function for that, or do you have to write a custom window function aggregate function? is the sqlite built-in function string_concat (or whatever it's called) suitable?
17:46:28 <b_jonas> group_concat
17:48:37 <b_jonas> ais523: re backreferences, also https://laurikari.net/tre/ is a thesis project proving that implements regular expressions with capture groups efficiently, there's obviously a lot of work done with it, it implements backreferences but for that it falls back to a slower alternate implementation,
17:49:28 <b_jonas> which also shows that at least there's no easy way to extend the implementation to backreferences, because clearly Ville Laukari has worked a lot on the theory there.
17:52:34 <b_jonas> ais523: also, there's a one-line proof that factoring reduces to regexes with backreferences: https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=510925 https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=52469
17:52:59 <b_jonas> that doesn't make it NP-complete, because factoring likely isn't, but still, it shows that we don't know a polynomial time implementation
17:53:03 <b_jonas> hm wait
17:53:05 <b_jonas> that doesn't wrok
17:53:09 <b_jonas> that's for unary
17:53:21 <b_jonas> we can factor unary numbers in polynomial time
17:54:39 <ais523> thinking about this a bit more, I suspect regex+backreferences is implemented by a nondeterministic LBA, rather than a nondeterminstic finite state machine
17:55:14 <ais523> there's no particular reason to expect those to be fast in general, but there may be a method of implementing them efficiently in the cases that typically arise in practice
17:57:48 <b_jonas> "you know that implementing 3SAT is sufficient, so you don't notice it works even without the 3" - hehe. I have a published NP-completeness proof where I reduce to SAT, not 3-SAT specifically, because the proof automatically works for any expression reduced to conjuctive normal form.
17:58:10 <b_jonas> It's not a very useful proof, mind you, because the problem we reduce to is not something you are generally interested in.
17:59:50 <b_jonas> ais523: you can probably read Ville Laukari's book and source code for how he implements them
18:00:03 <b_jonas> and there are a few other independent implementations
18:00:11 <b_jonas> a gnu one in libc in particular
18:00:13 <ais523> many mathematicians are suspicious of P-inequivalence proof claims based on 3SAT because they often would work for 2SAT as well
18:00:30 <ais523> that might be one of the simplest ways to prove that such a proof might contain an error
18:00:59 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, but this isn't a P-equivalence proof. this is a proof for hardness of a decision problem. 2-SAT reduces to it too, but that's not a problem.
18:01:31 <ais523> right, with proofs in that direction you don't care if they work for 2-SAT too
18:02:16 <b_jonas> I made the proof because I wanted to see why we don't know an algorithm for a certain other decision problem, only I couldn't prove hardness of that particular problem rigorously.
18:02:29 <b_jonas> So I proved hardness of a less interesting problem.
18:02:37 <b_jonas> One that is NP.,
18:03:34 <b_jonas> The actual problem we're interested in might be in P for all we know, but on the other hand it need not be in R.
18:03:51 <b_jonas> It's somewhere low in the arithmetic hierarchy.
18:04:18 <b_jonas> Probably at some greek letter plus _1
18:05:03 <ais523> which one's R?
18:05:04 <b_jonas> I have some reason to suspect that it might not be in R, but I can't really conjecture it.
18:05:11 <ais523> there are so many complexity classes that I keep forgetting their names
18:05:37 <b_jonas> ais523: recursive decision problems, the ones for which there's a det' algorithm that always terminates and gives correct result
18:05:48 <ais523> right, just looked it up
18:06:02 <b_jonas> at least I think some people call it R, but the naming conventions in that field are terrible
18:06:09 <ais523> decision problems that can be solved both ways, i.e. you can write a Turing machine that halts on true, and also a Turing machine that halts on false
18:06:16 <b_jonas> hopefully Knuth cleans them up at least a little in volumes 4 and 5
18:06:20 <ais523> and yes, Complexity Zoo calls it R, that's my normal source for these things
18:06:27 <b_jonas> yeah.
18:06:38 <ais523> (if you can write a Turing machine that halts on true, but maybe can't write one that halts on false, that's RE)
18:07:57 <b_jonas> Iirc in this case we do have a proof that it's at some particular level of the arithmetical hierarchy, but it's not obvious at first glance.
18:08:10 <b_jonas> Or maybe it is, depending on how you interpret "obvious".
18:09:13 <b_jonas> Stupid problem defined with multivariate calculus that you have to reduce to a discrete problem by a calculus theorem like the uniform continuity or some other compactness stuff.
18:11:29 <oerjan> <ais523> that's not even really a pun? <-- i considered not capitalizing SAT, would that have helped?
18:12:41 <b_jonas> Calculus if full of these things by the way. The staple example is finding arbitrarily close rational bounds for the real roots of a polynomial with integer coeffs. That one does go down with an elementary calculus argument, but you wouldn't guess the algorithm unless someone tells you.
18:13:01 <b_jonas> And I don't even know the proof for complex roots.
18:13:49 <b_jonas> I think the complex version uses Gerschgorin circles, but it could need more.
18:14:31 <ais523> oerjan: a bit
18:15:01 <b_jonas> s/Gerschgorin circles/Geršgorin circles/
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18:42:50 <ais523> come to think of it, I suspect you can run regexes in O(n**(2r+1)), where r is the number of backreferences used in the regex
18:43:24 <ais523> that wouldn't violate the boolean-satisfaction result above, because the more variables you have, the larger r gets
18:45:53 <ais523> the algorithm for doing so is trivial: for each backreference, iterate over the O(n**2) substrings of the input; for each of the sets of potential backreferences values produced, run the regular expression with the backreferences hardcoded, then verify that the capture groups match the hardcoded backreferences
18:46:46 <ais523> of course, a cubic implementation for one backreference isn't particularly "efficient", but polynomial time beats the exponential time that most implementations use
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19:16:30 <zzo38> b_jonas: All of the built-in aggregate functions can be used as window functions. If you are defining your own functions, you must define a few additional methods in order to work as a window function; such functions can also be used as ordinary aggregate functions.
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19:52:41 <esowiki> [[Ases]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58537&oldid=54842 * Gamer * (-15)
19:57:21 <esowiki> [[Symbols]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58538&oldid=39458 * Gamer * (+51)
19:58:32 <esowiki> [[SeMo-PATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58539&oldid=57516 * Gamer * (+0) /* Computational Class */
19:58:55 <esowiki> [[Symbols]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58540&oldid=58538 * Gamer * (+0) /* Examples */
20:09:14 <esowiki> [[A:;]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58541&oldid=46643 * Gamer * (+4) /* Commands */
20:14:56 <esowiki> [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58542&oldid=58541 * Gamer * (+32) /* Example programs */
20:16:57 <esowiki> [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58543&oldid=58542 * Gamer * (+6) /* Example programs */
20:17:32 <esowiki> [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58544&oldid=58543 * Gamer * (+2) /* Example programs */
20:18:28 <esowiki> [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58545&oldid=58544 * Gamer * (+3) /* Example programs */
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21:20:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: I know they can all be used in window function expressions. I'm asking if they are still guaranteed to be called with rows in a deterministic order.
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21:21:31 <b_jonas> ais523: lol. that definitely isn't a practical algorithm. I think you can do better, and libtre almost certainly doesn't do that.
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21:22:49 <b_jonas> Hmm... maybe you're right. For some devious backreference expressions, like /(.*)\1/, that might actually be efficient.
21:23:15 <b_jonas> No no. I think there's a linear time algorithm for finding /(.*)\1/ longest match.
21:23:52 <b_jonas> I react fast, eh?
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22:28:20 <int-e> b_jonas: now try the factoring thing: (..*)\1\1*
22:28:46 <int-e> oops, that should have one more .
22:29:42 <int-e> (hmm. I guess I'm counting capturing groups)
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22:50:49 <b_jonas> int-e: see above. that's for unary numbers, and we can factor unary numbers in sublinear times, even sublinear for a fixed regex, which is pretty rare for a regex that is anchored to match the whole string (it's commonplace for a regex like /^a/
22:50:53 <b_jonas> )
22:52:21 <b_jonas> we have series of regexen (strings as regexes without anchors actually) such that we can match any in linear time, but the constant factor goes to zero as a limit
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22:54:46 <b_jonas> Even I know how to implement factoring unary in O(n**(1/4)) time because I've implemented the corresponding algorithm for integers with arithmetic available.
22:55:03 <b_jonas> well, O(n**(1/4 + epsilon)) but still
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23:47:50 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58546&oldid=58529 * ShareMan * (-149) /* Language Overview */ Deleted interpreter info from language section, and fixed some grammar
23:50:32 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58547&oldid=58546 * ShareMan * (+296) /* Interpreter Help */ Added info about interpreter operation
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23:54:38 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58548&oldid=58547 * ShareMan * (+234) /* Examples */ Added new example programs
23:55:24 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58549&oldid=58548 * ShareMan * (+2) /* Interpreter Help */ Fixed formatting
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2018-12-03
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02:24:35 <zzo38> b_jonas: I think yes, if used as window functions then it is, but not if used as ordinary aggregate functions
02:33:16 <zzo38> (I don't know if that is quite sure, but I believe so)
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05:13:48 <zzo38> I made a Fossil repository for my "netsubsc" program (the reference implementation of Netsubscribe), including man pages, and also the protocol documentation is versioned in there too. Now you can look if you want to see (perhaps you might also use) the incomplete version, and can post bug reports, and wiki.
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10:41:53 <esowiki> [[2B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58550&oldid=58530 * Oerjan * (-86) Undo revision 58530 by [[Special:Contributions/Gamer|Gamer]] ([[User talk:Gamer|talk]]) (Pretty sure it's not, as {} isn't a loop.)
10:50:22 <esowiki> [[Brainfoctal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58551&oldid=58504 * Salpynx * (+401) /* Brainfoctal Sub-languages */ update sub-language examples, with sizes
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14:51:15 <esowiki> [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58552&oldid=53000 * Gamer * (-1) /* Calling functions */
15:10:58 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58553&oldid=58516 * Serprex * (+6) /* External resources */ fix wasm link, change github links to https
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16:50:49 <oren> I don't understand how unemplyment statistics work. If someone is only working one day a week, why do they still count as 100% employed rather than 1/5 employed. This doesn't allow me to estimate how many people have time to riot on any given weekday
16:52:29 <myname> it does so to have good looking statistics
16:53:23 <oren> Like my initial thoguht for how to estimate the probability of riots in a city building game mod
16:54:15 <Taneb> oren: maybe of interest: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/fulltimeparttimeandtemporaryworkersseasonallyadjustedemp01sa
16:54:19 <myname> in germany, everybody in an obligatory job-searching measure that does not yield any money for participants does not count towards unemployment
16:54:20 <oren> was to take the number of potential daylight rioters as the unemployed, times a coefficient of national unrest
16:54:35 <oren> or something
16:55:23 <oren> and then if that number reaches a breaking point of say 50, riots start
16:56:37 <oren> myname: agh
16:57:02 <Taneb> myname: ...then who does?
16:57:35 <myname> people without a job who aren't
16:57:58 <Taneb> But it's obligatory?
16:58:15 <myname> well yeah, it's not permanent though
16:58:22 <Taneb> Oh, I see
16:59:20 <myname> if you get mail to do so, you better do. if you sat through it and didn't find something, you are unemployed until you find a job or the next letter arrives
16:59:41 <oren> the coefficient of national unrest would, in real life, be dependent on things like the price of bread and the political situation but in a city building game, something like the police level and whther garbage is being collected on time
17:00:30 <myname> there was this concept of a city building game in rust that looks like it won't go far, but i like some ideas
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17:26:52 <esowiki> [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58554&oldid=49838 * Gamer * (+20)
18:12:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sir Kamba * New user account
18:18:24 <oren> hwo do I do a linear regression but force the slope to be 1
18:19:33 <oren> in google calc
18:19:53 <oren> hmm, wait is that the same thing as the mean of the difference
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18:22:16 <int-e> oren: yes it is
18:22:50 <oren> ok, hopefully =AVERAGE(A1:A80-B1:B80) is correct for calculating that
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18:31:34 <oren> AH SCREW IT (SUM(A1:A80)-SUM(B1:B80))/80
18:34:42 <oren> falcon 9 just lifted off
18:35:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58555&oldid=58517 * Sir Kamba * (+406) An introduction
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20:26:12 <zzo38> Would you use Netsubscribe once I will do?
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23:29:49 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58556&oldid=58518 * Ais523 * (+1067) /* Output extension */ let's define a backwards-compatible method of output to aid debugging and so that this language can be used more practically
23:30:25 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58557&oldid=58556 * Ais523 * (+119) /* Output extension */ clarifications
23:30:52 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58558&oldid=58557 * Ais523 * (+6) /* External resources */ No IO Output only, now that an output extension has been defined
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2018-12-04
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01:56:08 <ais523> I'm surprisingly annoyed at the lack of boxed-slice constructors in Rust
01:56:34 <ais523> you have to go via a temporary Vec if you want one (assuming that the size isn't known at compile time)
01:56:40 <ais523> even if you know the size at runtime
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02:00:43 <ais523> even if you know the size at runtime
02:00:51 <ais523> whoops, meant to do that in my shell, not IRC
02:02:51 <zzo38> Do you know how to play poker with tarot cards or mahjong with pokemon?
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02:08:48 <esowiki> [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58559&oldid=58522 * Cortex * (+69) /* Examples */
02:15:17 <esowiki> [[Omgrofl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58560&oldid=58453 * Cortex * (-110)
02:15:39 <esowiki> [[Template:Dead memes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58561 * Cortex * (+123) Created page with "'''WARNING''': This article contains high amounts of dead memes and outdated jokes. Please remember that before proceeding."
02:16:16 <esowiki> [[Surround notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58562&oldid=22152 * Cortex * (+16) /* Examples */
03:00:36 <zzo38> Do you like this?
03:01:36 <paul2520> poker with tarot, interesting
03:01:50 <paul2520> I've been meaning to find a use for mine.
03:04:43 <zzo38> There are a number of different games played with tarot. Originally the games were trick taking games, somewhat like whist or bridge, except there is one suit of permanent trumps. In some games the Fool is the highest trump, and in some other games, you can play it at any time even if you are able to follow suit but you will always lose the trick if you play it (it is sometimes called "Excuse" in this case).
03:06:27 <zzo38> (Even though it is either the highest trump or has no numerical value, still it seems it is commonly labeled zero. Someone told me that it is zero because it represents the beginning of a journey; I can see how, although that still does not seem a good enough reason to call it zero when its value in the game isn't actually zero.)
03:14:22 <zzo38> There are a few different games you can find, actually. If you have Latin-suited cards and the rules mention French-suited or vice-versa, you can use the following correspondences: spades=swords, clubs=rods/wands, diamonds=coins (sometimes they have pentagrams printed on them; it is fine if they do), hearts=cups
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03:24:26 <paul2520> very interesting
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04:58:25 <zzo38> Hello
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05:28:44 <zzo38> Hello
05:28:50 <zzo38> Sorry
05:29:30 <zzo38> O, good, I didn't miss any
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06:35:25 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58563&oldid=58549 * ShareMan * (+1059) Fixed computation classification, and just generally made things cleaner, easier to understand, etc.
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09:10:35 <oerjan> oh they've removed +r
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10:43:37 <wob_jonas> otppenztarak.hu has one of the worst authentication system I've ever seen on a website
10:44:44 <wob_jonas> the start seems sane: you enter your email address, which identifies your account, and your password, which you have set earlier. the password has some stupid restrictions on it: I think it must contain at least two digits or something stupid like that.
10:45:08 <wob_jonas> but then, it sends you a one-time token in email that is valid for 10 minutes only. who the heck thinks that everyone can receive email in 10 minutes?
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11:34:10 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58564&oldid=58302 * Salpynx * (-119)
11:35:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58565&oldid=58534 * Salpynx * (+11) /* A */ A-DU
11:36:21 <wob_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181204.html
11:36:22 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181204.html: b_jonas
11:37:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58566&oldid=58565 * Salpynx * (+15) /* G */
11:41:41 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58567&oldid=58426 * Salpynx * (+80) /* General languages */ 42
11:44:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: re rust boxed slice constructors, I was confused about that at first, but it turs out that there's a really good reason why it's done this way
11:45:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: the problem is that a slice or boxed slice has the type invariant that all the elements of he slice are initialized, and you can't initialize a general type, so you can't just make a general boxed slice constructor for any type
11:47:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: however, you can initialize the elements one by one from left to right, keeping track how much is initialized. in fact, Vec does exactly that, and the rust std guarantees that a Vec allocates the contents the same way as a boxed slice. so there's a safe method that converts a Vec to a boxed slice that is guarateed to not reallocate the memo
11:47:13 <wob_jonas> ry if the Vec's size is equal to its capacity.
11:48:43 <wob_jonas> the box is effectively just a start pointer, a size and a capacity; and a boxed slice is effectively a start pointer and a size; and this pointer and size and capacity are local variables that the optimizer can see directly when optimizing your program when you fill a vec.
11:50:36 <wob_jonas> So the general way to create a boxed slice is to create a boxed vector, possibly extend it to the capacity if you know the size in advance, then push the elements from left to right, then convert it to a boxed slice, which is at that point free. You can even abort by throwing away the vec.
11:51:42 <wob_jonas> There are some convenience abstractions around this in std, but perhaps not enough, and that part of your complaint might be valid.
11:51:53 <wob_jonas> But you can write any missing abstractions yourself.
11:52:22 <wob_jonas> If you want to initialize the slice in an order different from left to right, then you're somewhat screwed though.
11:52:29 <wob_jonas> There are ways to do that, but they're not easy.
11:53:06 <wob_jonas> And they're unsafe because there's no way to prove to the compiler that you kept track of which elements are initialized correctly.
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12:02:06 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58568&oldid=57861 * Salpynx * (+154) /* Interpreter */ Python3 interpreter silliness
12:03:50 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58569&oldid=58568 * Salpynx * (+37) /* In other languages */
12:08:38 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58570&oldid=58564 * Salpynx * (+133) /* Code for languages created by others */
12:12:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think if you want to initialize the elements in an order other than left to right, then you're screwed. I don't see a sane way to do that and get a Box<T> from it.
12:14:08 <wob_jonas> You can use a custom container, which uses Box<[std::mem::MaybeUninitialized<T>]> for allocation and deallocation, fill the elements in place in whatever order you want, and once you're sure that all elements are initialized to a valid states, you can expose the contents as a &mut [T], and you can implement this as an unsafe method that calls mem::
12:14:08 <wob_jonas> transmute on the slice (not on the box)
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12:21:59 <wob_jonas> nope, it's even worse if the type has a destructor
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12:23:40 <wob_jonas> you need a Box<[std::mem::MaybeUninitialized<std::mem::ManuallyDrop<T>>]> for that
12:24:01 <esowiki> [[Grime MC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58571&oldid=58464 * Salpynx * (+632) Notes on macros
12:33:11 <wob_jonas> but probably only for a year or two more, I think people already want to add a single wrapper for std::mem::MaybeUninitialized<std::mem::ManuallyDrop<T>> because it's too common
12:33:34 <wob_jonas> I bet you'll find one in std within two years
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15:19:34 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58572&oldid=46762 * Gamer * (+15) /* Truth-machine */
15:19:53 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58573&oldid=58572 * Gamer * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
15:20:43 <esowiki> [[Element]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58574&oldid=58573 * Gamer * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
15:22:22 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58575&oldid=58574 * Gamer * (-46) /* Nth Triangular Number */
15:22:40 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58576&oldid=58575 * Gamer * (-2) /* Digital root calculator */
15:26:45 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58577&oldid=58576 * Gamer * (-113) /* N Factorial */
15:28:15 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58578&oldid=58577 * Gamer * (+0) /* Nth Triangular Number */
15:33:30 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58579&oldid=58578 * Gamer * (-121) /* GCD of two numbers */
15:33:42 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58580&oldid=58579 * Gamer * (+24) /* N Factorial */
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15:33:55 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58581&oldid=58580 * Gamer * (+24) /* Digital root calculator */
15:36:29 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58582&oldid=58581 * Gamer * (+46) /* N Factorial */
15:37:06 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58583&oldid=58582 * Gamer * (+36) /* Truth-machine */
15:37:46 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58584&oldid=58583 * Gamer * (-40) /* GCD of two numbers */
15:39:24 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58585&oldid=58584 * Gamer * (-45) /* Nth Fibonacci number */
15:39:46 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58586&oldid=58585 * Gamer * (-34) /* GCD of two numbers */
15:42:12 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58587&oldid=58586 * Gamer * (+76) /* Digital root calculator */
15:44:11 <myname> talk about exeggerating
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18:29:13 <esowiki> [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58588&oldid=46060 * Gamer * (-13) /* Hello World! */
18:49:51 <oren> DYK? "lockheed" is pronounced /lɒxid/
18:51:29 <shachaf> What's the c doing in there?
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19:10:42 <esowiki> [[Alphuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58589&oldid=57853 * Gamer * (-28) /* Hello, world! program */
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20:07:22 <b_jonas> `2 quote
20:07:23 <HackEso> 2/1:
20:07:26 <b_jonas> no no
20:07:40 <b_jonas> ``` for x in 0 1; do quote; done
20:07:41 <HackEso> 120) <AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here. \ 157) <oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy <oklopol> and i own a piano <oklopol> and i'm not wearing socks
20:07:52 <b_jonas> ``` for x in 0 1; do wisdom; done
20:07:53 <HackEso> afk//Afk wrote a famous story about hang. \ lunacy//LUNacy is wisdom generated by a neu^Wlayered unit net. Ask Warrigal for details.
20:17:46 <shachaf> `n 2 quote
20:17:46 <HackEso> 2 quote/1:/bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 4: extra characters after command \ /hackenv/bin/n: line 1: 2 quote: syntax error in expression (error token is "quote")
20:18:01 <shachaf> hm
20:18:14 <shachaf> that's not right
20:20:15 <shachaf> `` \`^ 2 quote
20:20:16 <HackEso> 1/1:412) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry \ 937) <Bike> Are you sure this isn't the Sims <kallisti> can you get married to your variables? <kallisti> this is a feature I find lacking in most languages
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21:23:01 <ais523> does anyone know of a data structure which lets me do this?: we can add elements to the structure and it records when each element was added (new additions replace earlier additions of the previous element), and we can efficiently discover which elements have been added since a specific element was last added
21:23:28 <ais523> something like a linked deque + an index into it would work, I think, but I'm wondering if there's anything simpelr
21:24:44 <ais523> `unidecode µ
21:24:44 <HackEso> ​[U+00B5 MICRO SIGN]
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21:43:42 <ais523> on another note, how many languages use "if … else" (with no "then" clause) for what Perl/Ruby call "unless"?
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21:48:51 <FireFly> huh, that's an interesting syntactic idea, and makes enough sense
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21:51:53 <oren> if(x == 30);else{ }
21:52:56 <ais523> yes, it's easy enough to stick a dummy "then" part in
21:57:15 <b_jonas> ais523: hi. see logs for today about your rust question.
21:58:32 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't see how a linked deque and index would work, you'd have to update a lot of indexes. a heap and indexes could work, because you can delete any element and you only have to update log(size) number of indexes.
21:59:08 <b_jonas> hm wait, what operations exactly do you want to do
22:01:32 <ais523> the index would be a map from an element to the object representing that element inside the deque (that's why it has to be a /linked/ deque)
22:02:11 <ais523> the operations I need that can't trivially be abstracted out into a separate structure are adding an element to the structure, and getting a list of all elements added more recently than a specific element
22:02:25 <ais523> also if I add the same element repeatedly, earlier additions should be forgotten rather than leaking memory
22:02:41 <ais523> in case it helps, I know all possible elements that could be added in advance
22:03:04 <ais523> elements can be compared for equality easily (in the situation I want to use this they're just integers)
22:03:22 <ais523> I was hoping that there'd be some existing structure which supports this so that I could look for an implementation in libraries
22:03:51 <ais523> re: the Rust question discussion in logs, I was expecting something that created an /initialised/ boxed slice, e.g. by copying a given element a given number of times (like vec! does)
22:05:07 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, you mean a deque plus an dictionary with the element value as key, and an iterator into the deque as the value. that works, I was confused by "index" then
22:05:24 <b_jonas> a linked list deque that is
22:05:29 <b_jonas> so that the elements have stable nodes
22:05:31 <b_jonas> yes, that works
22:05:32 <ais523> I meant it in the sense of "database index"
22:05:44 <ais523> of course, databases are good at this, because they're basically a general-purpose data structure
22:05:51 <ais523> but it feels like something simpler should work too
22:05:57 <esowiki> [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58590&oldid=58559 * Cortex * (+34293) /* Examples */
22:06:11 <ais523> (also I'm writing this program in Rust, and a linked deque is one of the simplest things that Rust is /really/ bad at…)
22:06:29 <b_jonas> I was thinking of a heap (such as a binary or quaternary heap) and a dictionary from the key to the index into the heap. I know you can efficiently maintain a dictionary from the element to the index in a binary heap, I've implemented that.
22:06:34 <b_jonas> it's not clear which of these is better her
22:07:36 <b_jonas> ais523: no way. you never delete elements, so you can put the deque nodes in a Vec that will never shrink, and you never waste memory, and use indexes or 32-bit indexes into that Vec for the links.
22:08:08 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, that does work, it's weird to think about using indexes rather than pointers though
22:08:22 <ais523> especially as the bounds checks happen at runtime not compile-time
22:08:29 <b_jonas> using indexes is generally a good idea because it's easy to automatically bounds checked which catches some (not all) silly mistakes with pointer stupidity, and allows you to use 32-bit indexes in a 64-bit address space
22:08:49 <b_jonas> no need to allocate each node separately
22:09:30 <b_jonas> this is the main reason why I think x32 is a silly idea. if in the structures or loops where you really need to optimize for performance, you just use 32-bit indexes, then the 64-bit pointers never bother you.
22:10:03 <b_jonas> admittedly the rust std isn't too well-suited for that, but ideally if you wrote everything in machine language, that would work, and rust or C++ allow good enough approximations.
22:11:05 <b_jonas> rust is in a slight disadvantage here, but in the very rare cases when that causes a performance problem, you just optimze the inner loop by reimplementing it in something that isn't rust.
22:11:19 <b_jonas> or give dirty hints to rust to speed it up
22:11:47 <ais523> doesn't using pointers directly, rather than index + base pointer, reduce register pressure?
22:11:51 <b_jonas> probably eventually in future rust that won't be necessary, they just add enough stuff in the compiler and std
22:12:18 <b_jonas> ais523: perhaps, but usually register pressure is less of a problem on x86_64 than L1 cache and L2 cache throughput
22:12:25 <b_jonas> and decoder throughput and stuff like that
22:12:46 <b_jonas> especially on modern x86_64
22:13:49 <ais523> now I'm wondering if simple dereferences like mov [reg], reg take up less instruction-cache pressure than complex ones like mov [base+index*4], reg
22:13:59 <b_jonas> and register throughput problems is something that has some chance of automatically fixing themselves without changing your code when you install a new compiler with a better optimizer, whereas cache throughput is less likely to do that
22:14:33 <b_jonas> ais523: that really depends on the compiler
22:15:34 <b_jonas> but you aren't likely to get [base+index*4] or [base+index*8] indexes here unless you premultiply your indexes or use avx512, because your element size is greater than 8 bytes
22:15:38 <ais523> what's "that" referring to? if it's my most recent comment, I'm talking about at the machine code → micro-op level of abstraction, well below the compiler
22:16:35 <b_jonas> instead, you'll get a silly 64-bit shift instruction to do the multiplication, and you won't be able to convince rust to optimize that a 32-bit multiplication, because you can't easily tell the compiler that the array size is less than 32 bytes.
22:17:15 <ais523> oh, I see, you're claiming that the more condensed instructions might not even be generatable
22:17:18 <b_jonas> "that" is referencing "register throughput problems"
22:17:54 <b_jonas> ais523: they might be if you premultiply your indexes or use avx512, but you rarely care that much about performance
22:18:08 <b_jonas> microoptimize your code only when it's really the bottleneck
22:19:46 <ais523> yes
22:21:51 <b_jonas> I'd like to note that in this case, since you always insert new elements whose weights are larger than every existing element, inserting a new element takes constant time, you're not moving anything, just pushing an element with the next weight at the end of the array
22:22:04 <b_jonas> you probably need to keep a counter tha tracks the next weight separately
22:22:36 <b_jonas> if you rarely update elements, then that's the simplest one, but since you didn't mention deleting elements, I think you want to update elements often
22:23:19 <b_jonas> mind you, adding a new element to the front of a deque is about as simple
22:23:37 <b_jonas> and the dictionary insert has about the same cost in either case
22:23:46 <b_jonas> hmm wait
22:23:53 <ais523> you can't just keep inserting at the end of an array
22:23:57 <b_jonas> the heap won't work at all
22:24:00 <ais523> because then you'll end up growing the array forever
22:24:15 <b_jonas> or at least, not easily
22:24:35 <b_jonas> ais523: but you need to grow the array when you insert a new element, as opposed to updating an element with an existing key
22:25:27 <b_jonas> ok, I think you're right. use a deque
22:25:33 <b_jonas> a linked list deque
22:27:48 <b_jonas> hmm wait, there's a trickier way
22:28:59 <ais523> I've been looking for existing Rust modules which have the right functionality; one of them uses a really clever trick
22:29:15 <ais523> the elements I'm adding are small integers
22:29:49 <ais523> and this data structure is designed for them; it basically has an array which stores the next integer and previous integer for each integer n at the nth slot
22:29:53 <b_jonas> ais523: trickier way, slower but less memory: use a singly linked list, with pointers towards older elements, and a dictionary with the value of an iterator to the previous element. when you remove an element, look up the next element by its value in the dictionary, and update that dict entry too as well as the dict entry for the element you move to the front.
22:30:28 <ais523> next /element/, previous /element/ rather than next /pointer/, previous /pointer/ (or simulating pointers using indexes) simplifies things a lot
22:30:42 <b_jonas> ais523: how many elements do you expect to have? if it's very small, like 8, then there are tricks
22:31:09 <ais523> it scales based on the size of user input
22:31:10 <b_jonas> ais523: that works only if your elements (keys) are of small size
22:31:18 <ais523> but it's consecutive from 0
22:31:28 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, so it's not like always less than 16
22:31:42 <ais523> right, in practice it'll usually be small but I don't want a hard limit
22:32:05 <ais523> (the values themselves are `usize`s)
22:32:36 <b_jonas> ais523: there's a crazy structure used in hardware caches to handle the 8-way caching that stores binom(8,2) bits and lets the hardware update one of the eight slot to make it the newest one, and find the oldest slot so it knows which element to drop when it has to insert a new one
22:33:26 <ais523> I probably won't use that, but am curious about how it works
22:33:45 <b_jonas> ais523: if it's between 8 and 64, then you might not care about asymptotic performance, and implement this as a simple vector of the integer values where you search the value with a linear search, and memmove part of the array to insert or delete something
22:34:08 <b_jonas> ais523: there's a bit for each pair of the 8 elements, and it tells whether the first one is newer than the other
22:35:17 <b_jonas> inserting a new element to a slot needs to update 8 of those 28 bits, which is somewhat easy and fast in hardware in this case
22:35:45 <ais523> oh yes, I can see how that would work now
22:36:33 <b_jonas> so much that I guess the bottleneck is not that age array, but the dispatch logic to find one of the eight elements matching the 6-bit address
22:36:53 <ais523> to be honest a linear search would probably be fast enough for me too, but it was a set of performance properties I hadn't seen before in a data structure, so it prompted me to ask here
22:38:05 <b_jonas> you need to do that address compare in each of the eight elements, then three layers of if-else to forward one of them, and then a comparison to the upper bits of the address when it arrives from the page table cache (it's not called "page table cache", it has a fancier name that I keep forgetting, but that's what it really is)
22:38:24 <b_jonas> and all of that must go through within a clock cycle ideally
22:38:28 <b_jonas> in the L1 cache that is
22:38:36 <b_jonas> you get slightly more slack in the L2 cache
22:38:56 <ais523> this is a program I'm heavily optimising partly just for practice/curiosity/the sake of it (it's an esolang interpreter, people hyperoptimise those for brainfuck…)
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22:39:07 <b_jonas> no wait
22:39:11 <b_jonas> that's not how it works
22:40:24 <b_jonas> first you find a 64-way dispatch for the right slot with 8 cache entries from the 6 middle bits of the address, and THEN when the address arrives from the page table, only then can you compare the upper lots of address bits to the eight slots and do the eight-bit dispatch
22:40:28 <b_jonas> sorry
22:40:33 <b_jonas> that sounds even harder
22:40:56 <b_jonas> that's why it's hard to make the latency low, since the page table cache also has a latency
22:41:11 <ais523> memory latency is a huge problem for today's computers
22:43:08 <b_jonas> I think the big problem is that until we design an entirely new architecture where we can be sure that no software depends on that pages are allowed to be 4k sized, we can't have an L1 cache larger than 32K (4K times eight). we've had CPUs with 32K L1 data cache and 32K L1 code cache for almost a decade, even though the operating systems mostly want to use 8K pages,
22:43:33 <b_jonas> and we can't fix this while we want x86 compatibility.
22:43:56 <b_jonas> it's one of these stupid historical things. 4k pages made sense back in 386 when computers had a few megabytes of memory.
22:44:09 <b_jonas> sometimes just one or two megabytes
22:44:28 <ais523> the issue isn't really so much the size of the pages, as the minimum granularity of the page table
22:44:38 <b_jonas> and larger L1 caches would help a lot
22:44:39 <esowiki> [[Doreq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58591&oldid=58377 * Unitan * (+35)
22:44:54 <b_jonas> ais523: what do you mean by the granularity? the cache line size? I think that's fine being 64 bytes as is.
22:44:59 <ais523> if you said "the pages are 512 bytes but you can only map them in units of megabytes" people would be fine with that
22:45:05 <ais523> b_jonas: minimum size/alignment of a page map
22:45:29 <b_jonas> ais523: if you can only map them in units of megabytes, then what would the 512 byte mean? in what sense would it be a page?
22:46:40 <ais523> presumably it'd be used for things like bounds checks
22:47:00 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, so you'd have a size entry in each page? why's that useful?
22:47:12 <b_jonas> I mean, it could be done, but I don't see the point
22:47:50 <ais523> well, what's the purpose of a page?
22:48:09 <ais523> sometimes it's for memory allocation purposes, sometimes it's to get useful side effects from the page faults
22:48:18 <ais523> you could divorce the two, I think
22:48:39 <b_jonas> ais523: for a cpu page, which is what we're talking about here, it's mapping from virtual memory address space (of a process) to "physical" memory address space in a way that the cpu dispatches the mapping automatically at every ordinary memory access
22:49:45 <b_jonas> "physical" address ideally means what's sent to the main memory, but it could be different if there's virtualization or legacy 32 bit large memory shenanigans involved
22:50:30 <ais523> right, and I don't see why virtual→physical mapping would need a small granularity nowadays unless you're intentionally overlapping pages in weird ways
22:51:33 <b_jonas> ais523: anyway, if you add a size field to a page, and you set it to less than maximum size, then you're probably wasting the rest of the physical page, because it's unlikely that you'll quickly find another partial page that you can allocate in the same place that has just the right page size alignment
22:52:23 <ais523> b_jonas: OK, so what about a setup that works like this: you can set up virtual→physical maps which have a large minimum size and alignment, but you can "mask" parts of a virtual page so that they pagefault when accessed
22:52:31 <ais523> rather than going to the physical page behind
22:52:37 <b_jonas> it could perhaps be useful for catching some stack overflows
22:52:57 <ais523> then you can effectively split a physical page between multiple virtual pages as long as the low bits in the virtual addresses are all distinct from each otehr
22:53:00 <b_jonas> but I don't think that's likely useful
22:53:17 <b_jonas> it would just make so that we have to automatically extend the stack more often than once every few pages
22:53:54 <b_jonas> ais523: make part of a page masked to unreadable? perhaps, but I don't really think it's worth the cost.
22:54:32 <ais523> b_jonas: well, the point is you have to pay this cost anyway when you have small pages
22:54:38 <ais523> so this is saving part of the cost
22:54:44 <b_jonas> ais523: I mean, then you'll need extra bits in the page table cache, which is something that has to be really close to the L1 cache and core on the cpu die for latency
22:54:55 <ais523> and it's definitely useful to be able to mask, say, the code section and data section of an executable map differently
22:55:03 <ais523> although, hmm
22:55:07 <ais523> I just had an idea
22:55:24 <b_jonas> ais523: not really. if you actually use smaller pages, rather than just allow smaller pages, then you pay the page table cost
22:56:03 <ais523> make it so that the high bits of a pointer specify what sort of accesses can be used via it; then instead of having permissions specified separately in the page table, they're specified indirectly by what virtual address you mapped the physical page to
22:56:09 <b_jonas> ais523: but currently, the cpu allows 4k pages, but most pages are actually larger, megabyte sized (we don't have 8K or 16K pages on x86_64 I think, but we could in the future), which is better because they take up less space in the page table cache
22:56:19 <b_jonas> well, not yet, but OSes are getting better with large pages
22:56:30 <b_jonas> eventually we will be using mostly megabyte-sized pages on x86_64
22:56:46 <b_jonas> and then you don't pay for the cost of the small pages in the page table cache, but only in the L1
22:57:32 <b_jonas> and once you require larger pages, with no mask bits, you have a page table cache that is about as efficient as currently, only slightly more because it doesn't handle small pages at all, and an L1 cache that can finally break the 32 kilobyte barrier
22:58:08 <b_jonas> it's still tricky, you can't just increase the L1 cache to as large as you want, because that also increases the latency of that cache
22:59:24 <b_jonas> you might even end up with an L1 cache and an L1.5 cache, the L1.5 cache being slower than the L1 cache, but still works like the current L1 cache in that it can tell which group of 8 elements to use before the page table cache tells the address
23:00:14 <b_jonas> you might even drop the L2 cache, and have only an L1 cache, and L1.5 cache, and what's currently called an L3 cache
23:00:20 <b_jonas> though that's not likely
23:00:31 <b_jonas> I dunno really
23:00:37 <b_jonas> at this point I just don't have the hardware competence
23:00:40 <b_jonas> I can't predict
23:02:40 <ais523> I think the future of hardware is mostly moving towards trying to make the memory structure less general so that it can be faster in special cases
23:03:04 <ais523> for example, GPUs typically use batch memory transfer mechanisms and suspend threads while waiting for the memory values to arrive
23:03:21 <ais523> and NUMA allows different CPU cores to have different RAM
23:04:16 <b_jonas> I'm a software guy who wants to optimize stuff on existing or near future consumer PC cpus, and only trying to understand cpus and compilers from that direction
23:05:32 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, the point of NUMA is that if each half of the cpu is accessing the RAM that's close to him, then the two halves can do memory transfer faster, and possibly with slihghtly lower latency too
23:05:52 <ais523> yes
23:06:50 <b_jonas> this is useful if you have processes that are really well parallelizable to twofolds, as in, two parts are very independent in what memory they use, which is common, then you get higher memory performance with cheaper hardware
23:07:08 <b_jonas> and it's common to have tasks that partition to two easily
23:07:53 <b_jonas> I've used a 2-way numa server to compress several videos in parallel, the bulk of each video compression runs on one core
23:08:08 <b_jonas> one cpu core that is, with some gpu magic involved too
23:09:00 <b_jonas> and the raw video is read to the half of the main RAM that compresses that video, and then the intermediate storage used for the compression is in that half too
23:09:21 <b_jonas> well, ideally
23:09:31 <b_jonas> I sort of have to trust the OS to do the Sane Thing in the common case
23:11:33 <b_jonas> compressing half of several videos still takes too much memory that it probably overflows an L3 cache
23:12:03 <ais523> CPU → GPU memory transfers are really really slow (the other direction is IIRC even slower, but less useful)
23:14:10 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but for video compression it's still worth, because a part of the video compression can be really sped up by a GPU
23:14:26 <b_jonas> assuming you have a modern GPU of course
23:14:57 <b_jonas> it's the kind of tasks GPUs are optimized for
23:16:34 <ais523> indeed
23:19:11 <b_jonas> and I think if you do both the finding the nearby similar square in previous frames thing on the GPU and the discrete cosine/wavelet/etc transform on the GPU too, then you can keep all the data in the deeper parts of the GPU between those two
23:20:21 <b_jonas> so ideally you only transfer each frame to GPU only once and do all the tasks there, then transfer the result back to CPU which does further processing on it and writes the file
23:21:05 <b_jonas> there's some other operations besides those two, like possibly partly decoding the frames from the input format if it's already compressed, subtraction, color space transform, etc
23:21:48 <b_jonas> or even resizing to lower resolution or other operations done at the same time as the encoding
23:22:07 <b_jonas> or, heck, deinterlacing and resizing to lower resolution
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06:44:43 <verisimilitude> Hello.
06:49:15 <verisimilitude> I figured I'd add a language I created to the Esolang wiki, even though it's just a derivative of Brainfuck; do I need an account in order to add a page?
06:51:37 <shachaf> Yes.
06:52:10 <verisimilitude> Alright; before I add it, perhaps I should explain what the language is, since I figure you'll be able to tell me if it's been done before.
06:52:19 <verisimilitude> What I did was make Brainfuck homoiconic.
06:54:47 <shachaf> I don't think "homoiconic" means anything
06:55:14 <verisimilitude> I added a new command, =, that conditionally copies the program into the data array or copies the data array into the program and then starts executing it.
06:55:57 <verisimilitude> A quine looks like this: =[.>] This is a quine.
06:56:31 <verisimilitude> A quine looks like this: =[.>]
06:56:48 <verisimilitude> So, that's what I meant by ``homoiconic''.
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07:28:07 * Sgeo_ is now wondering about mechanical ways to translate that into pure Brainfuck
07:29:44 <verisimilitude> I've not attempted that, at least not yet.
07:30:19 <verisimilitude> I have a page with an (incomplete) interpreter written in APL here:
07:30:19 <verisimilitude> http://verisimilitudes.net/2017-02-02
07:30:44 <verisimilitude> It's incomplete because I didn't know how I wanted to handle unbalanced brackets; now I know but I haven't corrected this yet.
07:31:03 <verisimilitude> Asides from that one detail, the APL interpreter is complete.
07:33:43 <verisimilitude> Also, note that this page is the oldest on my website and in most need of editing; it's outdated and needs improvement; I'll improve this page before I put anything on the Esolang wiki.
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09:52:30 <esowiki> [[Doreq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58592&oldid=58591 * Oerjan * (-35) Revert - doesn't look reversible to me, X can be clobbered.
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09:59:56 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
09:59:57 <lambdabot> ENVA 050950Z 18009KT 110V200 9999 FEW038 BKN059 01/M04 Q1008 TEMPO 4000 -SHRASN VV014 RMK WIND 670FT 20015KT
10:00:08 <oerjan> snow has come late this year
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10:26:31 <wob_jonas> verisimilitude: just copying the code to the data is easy, you don't even need quining techniques. for copying data to code, you need a full brainfuck interpreter.
10:26:57 <wob_jonas> I mean, if you want to translate such a program to brainfuck
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12:20:43 <oerjan> `2 quote
12:20:44 <HackEso> 2/1:
12:20:51 <oerjan> `cat bin/2
12:20:52 <HackEso> ​\` "$@" |& sport 2
12:21:02 <oerjan> `cat bin/quote
12:21:02 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf --random-source=/dev/urandom -n 1; fi
12:21:10 <FireFly> `cat bin/sport
12:21:10 <HackEso> cat "${2:-/dev/stdin}" >tmp/spout.raw; distort tmp/spout.raw | spore "${1-1}"
12:21:20 <oerjan> `quote
12:21:20 <HackEso> 91) <alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
12:22:13 <oerjan> oh duh
12:22:19 <oerjan> `1 quote
12:22:20 <HackEso> 1/1:1237) <Taneb> Could we achieve SETI with only naive set theory?
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12:23:34 <Taneb> Ooh that's a me quote
12:24:08 <FireFly> `quote Taneb
12:24:09 <HackEso> 384) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement \ 390) <Taneb> Cut to February <Taneb> War were declared <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10 \ 391) <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer \ 397) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave
12:24:31 <Taneb> I now have a laser printer
12:26:01 <Taneb> So I just need to learn how to use a sword and I will have achieved all my ambitions
12:29:54 <wob_jonas> Taneb: yes, you're among the most quotable people. I made a statistics, it's somewhere in the logs.
12:30:12 <Taneb> wob_jonas: I don't think I've been quoted that much in the past few years
12:30:29 <wob_jonas> let me look up the numbers
12:30:41 <Taneb> Possibly because I've got a life, or at least hang out in a wider range of IRC channels
12:31:02 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-09-07.html#lsb
12:31:32 <wob_jonas> you're more than half as quotable as the most quoted person
12:31:49 <wob_jonas> 52 Taneb quotes, the highest is 103 zzo38 quotes
12:33:15 <wob_jonas> and the twelfth most quoted nick
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12:59:04 <int-e> `"
12:59:05 <HackEso> 369) <oklopol> [...] only the hamster's nervous system was tortured. although probably torturing a large logical gate constitutes a horrible thing to do if it comes in a cute container. \ 632) <Phantom_Hoover> Dinner? At two? <fizzie> It's four here already. See, UTC+2. You need to add a couple of hours. Or was that subtract? I can never get those straight.
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13:34:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AIden * New user account
13:48:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58593&oldid=58555 * AIden * (+206)
14:03:08 <esowiki> [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58594&oldid=57412 * AIden * (+185)
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15:05:58 <esowiki> [[Autopsy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58595 * Keymaker * (+4141) Autopsy, a tarpit with 2 instructions and 4 registers/counters.
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15:14:09 <esowiki> [[User:Keymaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58596&oldid=53847 * Keymaker * (+115) Added Autopsy.
15:19:24 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58597&oldid=56828 * Keymaker * (+41) /* Survey */
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17:53:36 <int-e> @metar lowi
17:53:37 <lambdabot> LOWI 051720Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW009 BKN090 04/03 Q1024 NOSIG
17:54:01 <int-e> fungot: did you hide the swatter?
17:54:01 <fungot> int-e: btw people, i see, so is a ( pseudo) register based one
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18:13:50 <esowiki> [[Beam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58598&oldid=44642 * Gamer * (-8) /* Truth-machine */
18:14:59 <esowiki> [[Beam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58599&oldid=58598 * Gamer * (+20) /* Truth-machine */
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18:15:09 <esowiki> [[Beam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58600&oldid=58599 * Gamer * (+1) /* Truth-machine */
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18:48:39 <Ana-> Hello?
18:48:59 <Phantom_Hoover> helo
18:49:25 <Ana-> how are you? :)
18:50:44 <Phantom_Hoover> im fine
18:51:09 <Phantom_Hoover> the real question is how is esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment
18:53:17 <Ana-> Excuse me, I entered the channel without knowing what it was. I just wanted to talk to people
18:53:21 <Ana-> 😥
18:54:28 <Phantom_Hoover> idk if you're likely to have much luck there
18:54:38 <Phantom_Hoover> this channel is mostly full of computer programmers, not people
18:54:51 <verisimilitude> Hello, Ana-.
18:55:21 <Ana-> hello verosimilitude ;)
18:55:22 <verisimilitude> So, you don't want to discuss programming at all, Ana-?
18:55:55 <Ana-> hehehe just friends wanted...Where are you from?
18:56:47 <verisimilitude> Well, if you trace my IP I'm from Georgia, but that's not where I really am.
18:57:22 <Ana-> and where are you from?.Someone from Argentina? 😉
18:57:27 <verisimilitude> Anyway, feel free to PM me if you want to continue discussing things, I suppose, Ana-; there's no point in cluttering this channel.
18:57:45 <Ana-> ah!!!!! thanks!!!! ;)
18:58:16 <Ana-> and thanks Phantom_Hoover for answering!! :)
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19:30:14 <oerjan> `addquote <Ana-> Excuse me, I entered the channel without knowing what it was. I just wanted to talk to people <Ana-> 😥 <Phantom_Hoover> idk if you're likely to have much luck there <Phantom_Hoover> this channel is mostly full of computer programmers, not people
19:30:16 <HackEso> 1329) <Ana-> Excuse me, I entered the channel without knowing what it was. I just wanted to talk to people <Ana-> 😥 <Phantom_Hoover> idk if you're likely to have much luck there <Phantom_Hoover> this channel is mostly full of computer programmers, not people
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20:32:14 <olsner> `quote fungot
20:32:14 <fungot> olsner: i should write an imperative-functional compiler probably doesn't have high priority. it's rather... large. so we create a wrapper structure.
20:32:14 <HackEso> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) <fungot> i am sad ( of course by analogy)
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21:11:38 <b_jonas> `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/by-myself/
21:11:39 <HackEso> pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/by-myself/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
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2018-12-06
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01:41:32 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58601&oldid=58523 * Cortex * (-68)
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10:42:23 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58602&oldid=58429 * Gamer * (-8) /* MarioLANG */
10:44:03 <esowiki> [[Math++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58603&oldid=57716 * Gamer * (-1) /* Syntax */
10:45:01 <esowiki> [[Math++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58604&oldid=58603 * Gamer * (+1) /* Binary Operators */
10:47:14 <esowiki> [[Math++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58605&oldid=58604 * Gamer * (+1) /* Cotangent */
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10:56:03 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58606&oldid=58602 * Gamer * (-60) /* Alight */
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12:40:44 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58607&oldid=58203 * Gamer * (+36) /* See also */
12:41:54 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58608&oldid=58607 * Gamer * (-43) /* Truth-machine */
12:42:41 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58609&oldid=58608 * Gamer * (+38) /* Truth-machine */
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14:46:35 <ais523_> Autopsy feels like there should be some way to make it TC with three counters
14:47:02 <ais523_> (you can do it with just two if the distance jumped forwards after each instruction were changed to be much larger, but I suspect that would miss the point of the language)
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15:16:46 <wob_jonas> some people really don't know how to make informative documentation. they just spew this shit with some automatic doc generation tool. "InStr([start, ]string1, string2[, compare])" bad parameter naming. let's see the description of those parameters:
15:17:09 <wob_jonas> "string1: Required. String expression being searched. / string2: Required. String expression sought."
15:17:37 <wob_jonas> The function "Returns a Variant (Long) specifying the position of the first occurrence of one string within another."
15:19:12 <wob_jonas> It does eventuall leak which argument is which a page later, but at that point it's easier to give up and just take a glance at http://www.antonis.de/qbebooks/gwbasman/ and hope that no BASIC implementation gets the arguments swapped.
15:20:23 <wob_jonas> GWBASIC manual: "To search for the first occurrence of string y$ in x$, and return the position at which the string is found. / INSTR([n,]x$,y$)" see, that's one way to be clear. "INSTR([startpos,]haystack$,needle$)" would be even better, but that may be a later invention.
15:28:34 <fizzie> wob_jonas: https://gamma.zem.fi/~fis/qbc.html#QEw4MGEz
15:29:01 <fizzie> Is how they wrote it for QBasic.
15:29:23 <fizzie> I think that's a disprovement. Or whatever the opposite of improvement was, mind is blank & time for a meeting. ->
15:30:17 <wob_jonas> fizzie: hehe
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18:39:50 <oerjan> `icode ’
18:39:51 <HackEso> ​[U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK]
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21:48:19 <oren> WHO PUT NUMBERS IN MY GOEGARPHY DATA!
21:48:32 <oren> AAAAAAAAAAA
21:49:10 <oren> oh, nver mind, it was me
21:49:13 <shachaf> hiren
21:49:30 <shachaf> did you fix your build system and/or quit your job yet twh
21:50:12 <oren> shachaf: no, I am currently working on replacing some of it though. replacing a bunch of programs in Go, with C++
21:50:50 <oren> Only problem is I am bad at understanding what Go code does
21:51:31 <oren> and I have three other things which are higher priority than fxing the build system, one of which is adding features to the build system
21:51:56 <shachaf> what about quitting your job, though
21:52:22 <oren> shachaf: They keep raising my salary
21:52:32 <oren> shachaf: so, not yet
21:53:33 <shachaf> but if you switched jobs it'd probably go up even more
21:54:09 <oerjan> the salingularity
21:54:24 <shachaf> `owrjan
21:54:25 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
21:55:03 <shachaf> `swrjan s/render/remember/; s/connivance/convenience/
21:55:05 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
21:55:27 <oerjan> how retro
21:56:26 <oren> shachaf: yeah but then I would have to learn a new build system
21:57:11 <shachaf> oren: just ask for a bunch more money to compensate hth
21:57:51 <b_jonas> oren: do you really have to? doesn't the build system only come with the culture, and you could still just invoke the compiler with any other build system?
22:00:58 <oren> b_jonas: I suppose. I guess my company has alot more trouble because most of what the "build system" does is crunching data and autogenerating code, not actually finding dependencies or running G++
22:01:36 <oren> in fact the part of the build system I'm working on doesn't run any compilers
22:02:05 <oren> it turns CSV source data into CSV result data
22:02:09 <b_jonas> oren: in that case, combine the two build systems. do they hate each others?
22:02:45 <b_jonas> let one call into the other and back
22:02:50 <b_jonas> to depth 10 or so
22:03:06 <b_jonas> with some of the steps running on a remote machine too
22:03:29 <oren> b_jonas: that already happens. the current build system does make -> shell script -> make -> perl -> make -> perl
22:04:06 <b_jonas> oren: good. is the tangly part sorely lacking documentation or anyone else other than you who understands it, for job security?
22:04:33 <int-e> oren: needs more python, rust, go, swift, and fortran
22:04:38 <oren> b_jonas: I wrote documentation but afaict noone has read any of it
22:04:43 <b_jonas> oren: yeah
22:04:47 <b_jonas> documentation doesn't really matter
22:04:49 <b_jonas> nobody reads it
22:04:59 <b_jonas> it can be a good way to protect your back
22:05:20 <oren> int-e: the shell script uses tools written in C++, Go, Haskell, and Ruby
22:05:41 <int-e> oren: oh I forgot about Ruby.
22:05:56 * int-e is living a cozy life.
22:05:59 <oren> I am working on exorcizing the languages I dont know from the system
22:06:13 <oren> or know but don't like
22:06:28 <b_jonas> make sure the stuff breaks the moment you leave, but the simply solution shall be plainly documented in the documentation, and you shall have several ignored emails you send in which you point to that documentation and explain how important it is that its steps are followed, and you ask your supervisor to forward that information to the next person managing the build system
22:06:41 <b_jonas> and put the documentation right next to the build system too so they can't claim to have lost it
22:06:46 <b_jonas> they still won't be able to find anything
22:07:51 <b_jonas> I'll have to find time to write such documentation too
22:08:10 <b_jonas> I already have a system that nobody else can use
22:08:11 <int-e> `? time
22:08:12 <HackEso> time? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:08:16 <b_jonas> `datei
22:08:17 <HackEso> 2018-12-06 22:08:17.098855625+00:00
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22:09:12 <int-e> . o O ( `learn time//There's never enough time to write a good wisdom entry so this is what you get instead. )
22:10:43 <shachaf> is the part where you learn learn instead of le//rn part of what makes it not a good wisdom
22:11:33 <int-e> perhaps
22:11:47 <int-e> `? learn
22:11:48 <HackEso> ​`learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
22:11:56 <int-e> `? le/rn
22:11:57 <HackEso> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
22:12:09 <shachaf> That joke is no longer applicable. :-(
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22:13:45 <shachaf> oren: so if the salary raises are what's keeping you there, is there an amount of money that would convince you to switch jobs + build systems
22:13:59 <shachaf> i bet you could get it if you were motivated hth
22:14:19 <b_jonas> ``` date -u "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"
22:14:20 <HackEso> 2018-12-06 22:14:19 +0000 UTC December 6 Thursday 2018-W49-4
22:14:31 <b_jonas> ``` cat bin/dateu
22:14:32 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/sh \ exec date --rfc-3=n -u "$@"
22:14:49 <b_jonas> `dateu
22:14:50 <HackEso> 2018-12-06 22:14:50.194302513+00:00
22:15:02 <b_jonas> how do I get GNU date to print fractions of seconds with an explicit format?
22:15:23 <b_jonas> ah, %N
22:15:29 <b_jonas> ``` date -u "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"
22:15:29 <HackEso> 2018-12-06 22:15:29.719776794 +0000 UTC December 6 Thursday 2018-W49-4
22:16:13 <b_jonas> ``` f=bin/dateu; >$f echo $'#!/bin/sh\n''exec date -u "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"'; chmod -c a+x "$f"
22:16:15 <HackEso> No output.
22:16:17 <b_jonas> `dateu
22:16:17 <HackEso> 2018-12-06 22:16:17.262646602 +0000 UTC December 6 Thursday 2018-W49-4
22:16:27 <b_jonas> ``` f=bin/datei; >$f echo $'#!/bin/sh\n''exec date "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"'; chmod -c a+x "$f"
22:16:28 <HackEso> No output.
22:16:30 <b_jonas> `datei
22:16:30 <HackEso> 2018-12-06 22:16:30.538588903 +0000 UTC December 6 Thursday 2018-W49-4
22:16:38 <oren> that reminds me, a few weeks ago I was thingking what if you had a CPU that only used floats
22:16:50 <int-e> `? mkx
22:16:51 <HackEso> mkx? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:16:52 <oren> how would one use foating point numbers as adressles
22:16:54 <b_jonas> oren: yeah, those things used to exist back when integrated circuits were cheap
22:16:57 <int-e> `mkx
22:16:57 <HackEso> usage: mk[x] file//contents
22:17:15 <shachaf> oren: You could address bits! It'd be great.
22:17:26 <b_jonas> oren: also, there are high level languages with only floats (well, sort of), such as on my SHARP EL-5120 programmable calculator
22:17:34 <b_jonas> the floating point arithmetic is a bit strange too
22:17:59 <b_jonas> there is a sign are twelve decimal digits of mantissa, and two digits with sign of exponent of 10,
22:18:13 <b_jonas> only 10 digits are displayed
22:18:31 <b_jonas> so you'd think it's easy to store 12 decimal digits in a number, but it's not,
22:18:40 <b_jonas> because there's a strange quirk in the arithmetic operations:
22:19:10 <b_jonas> if you subtract two numbers and their exponent differs by 10 or 11, then the small number is treated as zero
22:19:18 <b_jonas> it won't subtract it from the last two digits
22:19:23 <b_jonas> same if they're added
22:19:35 <b_jonas> so you don't have reliable 12 decimal digit integer arithmetic
22:19:45 <b_jonas> you could work this around, but it's not easy with such limited programming
22:19:55 <int-e> shachaf: did you know that https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/BT.html actually allows you to address bits in memory (i.e., it'?
22:19:58 <b_jonas> so I mostly just stored 8 or 10 decimal digits in a variable
22:20:08 <b_jonas> when I didn't use it as a float that is
22:20:17 <int-e> (i.e. it's meaningful to use offsets < 0 or > 64 with a 64 bit memory operand)
22:20:25 <int-e> make that >= 64.
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22:20:47 <b_jonas> it also has what appears to be an 8-bit processor, so arithmetic is slow, and transcendental operations are very slow, but ordinary control flow and copying around values is fast,
22:20:58 <shachaf> int-e: fancy
22:21:17 <b_jonas> which is what makes the substitute for the missing arrays viable, which is a loop that cycles around 8 or 10 variables by 1, and keeps track of how much it's rotated
22:21:32 <b_jonas> that is fast and uses very little program memory or labels
22:22:22 <b_jonas> there's only about 1100 bytes of program memory (every function or statement heading takes just a single byte, and every line has an overhead of only 3 bytes), and a program is limited to 20 labels
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23:14:39 <ais523> it strikes me that the "symbols" listing in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit is completely missing the mathematical point
23:15:02 <ais523> it should be describing the number of distinguishable values per memory cell (thus, the counter-based languages effectively have infinitely many symbols)
23:15:12 <ais523> but I'm not sure that that's a useful statistic for esolangs
23:15:24 <ais523> because they don't normally allow you to give arbitrary actions to arbitrary symbols
23:15:29 <ais523> (when they do, you typically have a tag system)
23:18:16 <ais523> oren: there are plenty of higher-level languages which have floats as their only numeric type
23:18:39 <ais523> normally, when you need integers, you use 32-bit integers and store them in doubles
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23:40:22 <b_jonas> "arbitrary actions to arbitrary systems" => hmm. finitely many symbols, or infinitely many? the latter is harder.
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23:44:11 <b_jonas> Today I folded up my double bed to single bed configuration. Out came a shitton of dust that doesn't get out in normal cleaning, and two M:tG cards. There are probably some more under it somewhere.
23:44:27 <b_jonas> This isn't the first time I found M:tG cards under it. I've found other lost stuff too a few times.
23:45:00 <shachaf> `? taneb
23:45:01 <HackEso> Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions).
23:45:08 <shachaf> I offered Taneb some Magic: The Gathering cards but he didn't take them.
23:47:39 <ais523> b_jonas: I think there are plenty of languages which (at least syntactically) allow you to assign actions to an arbitrary subset of an infinity of symbols
23:47:52 <ais523> in terms of esolangs https://esolangs.org/wiki/Echo_Tag effectively does
23:47:58 <ais523> err, wrong one
23:48:03 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fusion_Tag
23:48:07 <ais523> I have too many tag system variants
23:48:57 <ais523> or, well, I'm not sure it's /possible/ to have too many tag system variants
23:48:59 <ais523> but I have a lot
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23:58:34 <b_jonas> Cloudgoat Ranger (Lorwyn, english; I have 5 total of it, 3 english and 2 simplified chinese; I like it, only two really goes in a deck but multiple white decks can fit them) and Daunting Defender (Onslaught, english; I have 4 but never use them)
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2018-12-07
00:00:05 <b_jonas> Does anyone want to bet how many more cards I'll recover?
00:00:16 <b_jonas> I think I still have some missing.
00:10:41 <b_jonas> No cards. And I think I opened and lifted it up enough that I would have found any cards.
00:10:51 <b_jonas> There's some more dust left down there, that I admit
00:10:55 <b_jonas> Oh well.
00:12:46 <b_jonas> Well, I can't complain either way.
00:12:53 <b_jonas> It's not like I expected to find treasure under it.
00:14:29 <b_jonas> This could be an un-card. A sorcery for {1W} with "If you're not in your own home, you may look under the bed. You may put any number of Magic cards found there into your hand."
00:15:09 <b_jonas> No wait, that doesn't work. It would break the rule that you can't put cards you don't own to your hand.
00:16:01 <b_jonas> Make it a sorcery for {1W} with "If you're not in your own home, you may look under the bed. You may cast up to two cards found there without paying their mana costs."
00:19:09 <b_jonas> Or should it be white and be called "Spring bed cleaning"?
00:19:17 <b_jonas> s/be white/be green/
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00:19:28 <b_jonas> I think it fits better in white
00:19:35 <b_jonas> Dunno.
00:20:12 <b_jonas> I guess it could be given some green flavor by mentioning recycling and scavenging animals.
00:21:46 <b_jonas> Like, it's about some worms that come after the jackals eat all they could from the caracass the lions left over.
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00:42:11 <b_jonas> Or it can be red. The flavor is that a goblin goes into a dungeon and wakes up sleeping creatures. The art shows him just having come out of the dungeon, running away, behind it a bear, and behind it a huge dragon with its neck poking out from a standard 5 foot dungeon entrace.
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00:42:27 <b_jonas> But I think the green version fits the effect better.
00:43:40 <b_jonas> Called something like "Urban Scavanging" and cost {1G}.
00:45:06 <b_jonas> The red version would have to put up to two creatures into play with haste.
00:50:10 <b_jonas> And the red version would cost {2R}, the green version {1G}. I think I prefer the green one.
00:50:20 <b_jonas> If the red one is done, it has to have some other effect.
00:50:28 <b_jonas> Not connected with under the bed.
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07:20:18 <shachaf> Oh man, http://jtra.cz/stuff/essays/math-self-reference/index.html
07:20:23 <shachaf> This is much better than the other one.
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12:18:25 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58610&oldid=58609 * Salpynx * (+26) pseudonatural category
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12:49:09 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58611&oldid=58266 * Salpynx * (+262) /* Examples */ Truth-machine
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17:39:46 <moony2> Making JIT actually performant is annoying
17:40:32 <moony2> and x86-64 *really* doesn't map very well to a 64 (2 zero registers) architecture (FP and GPR combined)
17:41:37 <moony2> I'm also curious how much work would need to be done to get Linux running on the MC88100
17:42:19 <moony2> probably a fair bit, but not too much, as it shares similar features to RISC-V/MIPS in several places.
17:44:54 <moony2> also, my laptop *really* sucks. I may want to delay development of the emulator until i get my new desktop due to the fact my laptop probably couldn't pull 100MIPS even if i tried
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18:15:47 <int-e> `? politics
18:15:48 <HackEso> Politics: See lies.
18:15:54 <int-e> `? lies
18:15:55 <HackEso> Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups.
18:16:06 <int-e> hmm
18:17:27 <int-e> . o O ( politics is where visions go to die )
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19:53:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: in M:tG, I mentioned that Gatherer doesn't mention which cards transform to which in the list view, only in the individual card view.
19:53:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: but it gets worse. the list view also doesn't tell the color indicators.
19:57:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, I could download the lists in "Checklist" view. that at least shows the color.
19:58:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, even stranger than that
19:59:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: it lists the color of the card and the color of the back face concatenated together
19:59:33 <b_jonas> crazy
20:00:06 <b_jonas> no
20:00:08 <b_jonas> not even quite that
20:00:18 <b_jonas> I don't understand why, but it lists Evermind as "Blue/Blue"
20:01:03 <b_jonas> I think it shows the color and the color indicator together
20:02:49 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58612&oldid=58170 * Gamer * (-40) /* Hello World! */
20:02:55 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58613&oldid=58612 * Gamer * (+30) /* Hello, World! */
20:09:19 <b_jonas> But I think I'll download the checklists as well as the standard view lists
20:09:38 <b_jonas> (seriously, they call it "Standard")
20:10:12 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58614&oldid=58613 * Gamer * (+4095) /* Implementation (Python) */
20:10:32 <b_jonas> (they should rename the "Checklist" view to "Counter" view.)
20:11:04 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58615&oldid=58614 * Gamer * (-50) /* Implementation (Python) */
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20:20:44 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58616&oldid=58615 * Gamer * (-744) /* Implementation (Python) */
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20:28:52 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58617&oldid=57797 * Gamer * (+5924)
20:29:35 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58618&oldid=58617 * Gamer * (-2)
20:29:53 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58619&oldid=58618 * Gamer * (+0)
20:37:03 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58620&oldid=58188 * Gamer * (-248) /* Commands */
20:37:14 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58621&oldid=58620 * Gamer * (+0) /* Commands */
20:38:06 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58622&oldid=58621 * Gamer * (+4) /* Computational class */
20:40:33 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58623&oldid=58622 * Gamer * (-56) /* See Also */
20:48:13 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58624&oldid=58553 * Gamer * (+0) /* Hello, world! */
21:00:38 <esowiki> [[Surround notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58625&oldid=58562 * Ais523 * (-16) Undo revision 58562 by [[Special:Contributions/Cortex|Cortex]] ([[User talk:Cortex|talk]]): we probably don't need a warning for that?
21:01:02 <esowiki> [[Omgrofl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58626&oldid=58560 * Ais523 * (-16) undo: we probably don't need a warning for that?
21:01:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Template:Dead memes]]": primarily used to attack other people's articles
21:43:34 <oerjan> . o O ( i see dead memes )
21:48:32 <int-e> oerjan: all your base are belong to us
21:48:42 * int-e is feeling helpful
21:50:42 <oerjan> thx tdh
21:50:45 <b_jonas> ``` for k in 0 1; do wisdom; done
21:50:45 <HackEso> functor//Functors are morphisms in the category of small categories. \ portmanteau//«Portmanteau» is the French spelling of “port man toe”.
21:50:48 <b_jonas> ``` for k in 0 1; do quote; done
21:50:48 <HackEso> 1091) <zzo38> If someone tries really hard to convince you to sell them drugs, then you should photograph them and bind them. <kmc> bind them to what <zzo38> To jail. \ 526) <elliott> Dear god stop staring at me. <monqy> no never <Phantom_Hoover> monqy is always staring at everyone. <monqy> it takes many eyes to do this but I manage <Phantom_Hoover> He is an inspiration to us all.
21:55:26 <int-e> `? mꙮnqy
21:55:26 <HackEso> mꙮnqy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:55:56 <int-e> `learn mꙮnqy is watching you.
21:55:58 <HackEso> Learned 'mꙮnqy': mꙮnqy is watching you.
21:59:54 <oerjan> `icode ꙮ
21:59:55 <HackEso> ​[U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
22:00:55 <oerjan> ...that was obvious really.
22:04:17 <int-e> I thought so, iot's basically the channel mascot.
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22:05:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: hi
22:06:01 <int-e> `grwp mascot
22:06:05 <HackEso> fungot:fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
22:06:06 <zzo38> Hello
22:06:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: see logs
22:06:18 <int-e> Ah, fungot. Fair enough.
22:06:18 <fungot> int-e: sounds like you need to bind a whole bunch of webcams here.
22:06:20 <zzo38> OK I will look
22:07:01 <int-e> fungot: uhm, are you trying to film yourself Matrix effect style?
22:07:01 <fungot> int-e: and with 2 pheromones, you have
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22:13:25 <ais523> my subpixel antialiaser seems to really struggle with multiocular o
22:13:45 <ais523> different multiocular os can look different from each other
22:20:01 <int-e> beware those squinting eyes
22:22:21 <zzo38> b_jonas: I read it. You wrote something about Gatherer. I do not know how to deal with this
22:22:22 <oerjan> i think fungot wants multiocular capabilities
22:22:22 <fungot> oerjan: mov fnord add fnord mov ( fnord, list-string is an identifier?) but not the same as
22:22:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm dealing with it
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22:26:14 <zzo38> OK
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22:56:44 <int-e> fungot: you may be on to something
22:56:45 <fungot> int-e: does oklotalk-- have runtime errors??? any posix system should have at least been polite about it since the course is very good ( yet) fully match what i want
22:57:15 <int-e> `? oklotalk
22:57:16 <HackEso> oklotalk? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:57:20 <int-e> `quote oklotalk
22:57:21 <HackEso> No output.
22:57:33 <int-e> how did that end up in fungot's vocabulary then?
22:57:33 <fungot> int-e: what did alan kay say? " fnord,
22:57:48 <int-e> @metar lowi
22:57:49 <lambdabot> LOWI 072250Z AUTO VRB02KT 9999 -SHRA FEW038 BKN048 06/05 Q1008
23:02:07 <b_jonas> fungot: alan turing?
23:02:07 <fungot> b_jonas: but i'm sure there are more than one char lookahead to parse intercal's array syntax in general
23:02:20 <b_jonas> that's a good one
23:02:46 <ais523> it might be verbatim, or close to it
23:02:54 <ais523> INTERCAL's array syntax does indeed require more than one char lookahead
23:03:04 <ais523> (and very few other things in the language do)
23:03:08 <ais523> (possibly nothing else)
23:05:02 <b_jonas> fungot: how do you parse statements starting with FORI=1 in fortran?
23:05:03 <fungot> b_jonas: nick in that case, first try to see if a.b.c.d is in a.b.c.d/ n
23:05:20 <b_jonas> yeah, so just backtrack, try a for statement first, then a let statement
23:05:22 <ais523> ^style
23:05:22 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:07:06 <b_jonas> fungot: and how do you parse R = AX OR B in BASIC?
23:07:06 <fungot> b_jonas: don't let large venomous spiders numb your limbs and suck out your fnord internal organs while you sleep.
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23:07:34 <b_jonas> fungot: don't worry, I'm not in Australia
23:07:34 <fungot> b_jonas: lol that's true too. i need some delay stuff working" is a separate specialization from math recommended it. if you
23:07:48 <b_jonas> Every major's terrible
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23:31:27 <salpynx> Hello! thought I should finally join here and say hi. I'm spending far too much time on the wiki and working on esolangs in isolation, so thought it might be good to get into some discussions to direct what I work on next
23:31:57 <zzo38> OK. Do you have some idea though?
23:34:02 <salpynx> I am working on multiple ideas at the moment, but most actively on an Autopsy (recent and interesting turing-tarpit) interpreter in my own language ΙΧΘΥΣ / ixqus to hopefully prove it is Turing complete and figure out how I can implement arbitrary conditionals, which are quite challenging in ixqus
23:38:08 <salpynx> I have also started on a completely ridiculous brainfuck on blockchain idea that uses bitcoin wallets (practically on the testnet) as cell storage that would be good to get feedback on. I'm surprised there aren't already esolangs that try to use blockchain gimmicks. I though overused brainfuck and overused blockchain concepts would be a nice match for a technically challenging joke language.
23:40:08 <salpynx> I've made a little proof of concept bitcoin explorer bf app, and have already found even test coins get auto-swiped from low numbered / obvious wallets on the testnet, which makes it hard to test. I call them 'auto-decrement' bots. The idea of a distributed and publically shared memory space was part of the concept though
23:44:37 <salpynx> I guess the main point of feedback I'm after is, do I have some sort of moral responsibility to not use public blockchains to write many copies of 'Hello, World!' . I know I could implement this, but _should_ I :) Would it be sufficient to write up the concept on the wiki.. I'm calling the idea B*chainfuck (shortened to bcf)
23:49:03 <salpynx> I keep getting torn between sensible challenges (like Autospy), and complex jokes, which I guess is why I have rapidly become quite obsessed with esolangs.
23:49:27 <b_jonas> salpynx: I don't think you have such a moral responsibility. Bitcoin is a chaotic aligned network, the whole point is that it should have self-enforcing rules.
23:49:56 <b_jonas> If you technically can do something like that with bitcoin, then I don't think it's against the moral spirit of bitcoin to do it.
23:54:03 <b_jonas> I hate brainfuck though, exactly because it's overused and it sucks.
23:54:10 <salpynx> Also, if anyone tried to use the concept on the real bitcoin network they would loose real money, because many/most of the wallet keys are publicly known, but I hope that would be obvious to anyone who could set up the tool.
23:54:53 <salpynx> :) combining it with blockchain was a big part of the joke, twice the groan factor
23:55:17 <b_jonas> salpynx: make sure you use a GPU implementation though, for the overuse
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2018-12-08
00:06:45 <ais523> hi salpynx
00:07:35 <ais523> also, I think many of us are interested in a mix of sensible challenges and complex jokes
00:07:52 <ais523> brainfuck-on-blockchain is an interesting idea, although it may have been comprehensively outesotericised by Ethereum
00:08:09 <b_jonas> yeah, sensible challenges with complex jokes are nice
00:08:14 <ais523> perhaps it would be possible to try it on an altcoin nobody cares about? there are a huge number of them, after all
00:08:36 <b_jonas> some of those vaporware projects that never get made are mixes of sensible challenges with complex jokes I guess
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00:11:15 <ais523> I guess my esolang research has skewed towards the sensible for a while
00:11:31 <ais523> but then, I'm a major contributor to things like C-INTERCAL, which is close to the pinnacle of the "complex joke" end of the scale
00:11:40 <b_jonas> yeah
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00:17:29 <b_jonas> ais523: you could call the DOS nethack TAS a good mix of serious and a complex joke I guess
00:17:59 <b_jonas> whereas ayacc and aimake are on the serious side, more so than esolangs in general
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00:19:19 <b_jonas> hmm, I wanted to look up if there's a nethack4 bug ticket about how in certain polymorph (and maybe also as an orc character) you should eat apples whole on unix
00:20:45 <ais523> b_jonas: if it helps, I've seriously threatened to implement a brainfuck backend for ayacc
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00:21:20 <ais523> bye clog?
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00:21:27 <ais523> oh, netsplit is coming
00:21:27 <zzo38> ais523: Who do you threaten? Is it a threat?
00:21:50 <ais523> zzo38: it's a threat in that some people might see such an implementation as undesirable, but it's not a threat aimed at anyone in particular
00:22:44 <zzo38> O, OK. I think that if it is a separate file than the other backend then I do not have a problem with it
00:23:23 <ais523> well, all of ayacc is one file to make it easier to distribute, but it would have a separate section in the part of the file that defines backends
00:23:55 <zzo38> Yes, that can work too, I suppose. Use conditional compilation if someone complains
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00:25:25 <b_jonas> ais523: if you implement it, will you also put an open source license declaration in ayacc?
00:25:30 <b_jonas> because then it will be worth
00:25:52 <b_jonas> I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayacc harder to sue
00:26:25 <ais523> b_jonas: I will probably make ayacc GPLv3 at some point
00:26:26 <ais523> if it isn't already
00:26:28 <b_jonas> I would like some frontend transformations, as well as a stackless C/C++ backend.
00:26:48 <b_jonas> ais523: it is distributable under some such licence, but there's no declaration
00:26:58 <b_jonas> ais523: there's a declaration somewhere in the #esoteric logs
00:27:04 <ais523> ah, OK
00:27:14 <b_jonas> but not in the source code itself (unless you snuck it in recently)
00:27:18 <ais523> the basic problem is that ayacc is so close to my day job it might be legally unwise for me to work on it at the moment
00:27:27 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, exactly
00:27:31 <ais523> although my day job's diverged a bit since
00:27:40 <b_jonas> which is why the bf backend is a good sigh
00:27:51 <b_jonas> if you can work on the bf backend, then you can probably also work on the license declaration
00:28:07 <zzo38> Yes, you should add properly the valid open-source/free-software license, whether GPLv3 or public domain or something else.
00:29:25 <b_jonas> I think there's no ticket for how any polyform, even a gelcube, will eat apples and pears without cores.
00:30:09 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm not working on the BF backend because of this
00:30:11 <ais523> it's probably the main reason?
00:30:27 <ais523> I'm thinking about it, though; semantic actions are hard
00:30:42 <ais523> perhaps we should restrict it to bignum BF and make the semantic actions into numbers
00:30:46 <ais523> err, semantic /values/ into numbers
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00:39:02 <salpynx> Thanks for the ideas. I thought about another altcoin, but then that'd be a lot of learning I'd have to do that would be less generally applicable, anything I learn about bitcoin protocols is more likely to be useful to me or others. Bitcoin has the advantage that there are a lot of exiting libraries to piggyback form or reverse engineer as well, so I don't have to implement everything and can focus on a few jokes.
00:40:03 <salpynx> The GPU idea is good, I don't remotely need to use it for the simple operations I'm aiming for, but it'd be fun to somehow use it for a trivial calculation, just to say it's being used
00:41:32 <b_jonas> salpynx: yes, nor do you need to use brainfuck or blockchains for the simple operations you're aiming for
00:41:44 <b_jonas> `hello
00:41:45 <HackEso> hello, world
00:41:58 <b_jonas> ^ proof of concept: hello world, without using bitcoin or blockchains or GPU
00:42:36 <b_jonas> it does run on HackEso through IRC though, so in that sense it is overcomplicated. I could just run hello world locally.
00:44:45 <ais523> b_jonas: currently I'm trying to write a The Waterfall Model interpreter that's has a sufficiently powerful optimiser that it can run a hello world in a reasonable length of t ime
00:45:20 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, how does that generate output?
00:45:34 <ais523> there's an extension where you can take a useless counter and add specific values to it
00:46:08 <ais523> I wrote the extension recently because being able to produce output makes it easier to reason about what a program is doing (also makes the language more usable on PPCG)
00:46:10 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model#Output_extension
00:46:16 <ais523> but it's optional and not part of the "core" language
00:52:56 <zzo38> Do you know about mediaeval barber shop prices? Part of this http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui/wiki?name=Session+17 has a price list does it looks like OK?
00:56:10 <b_jonas> no clue. I've never been to a mediaeval barber.
01:00:00 <ais523> a medieval barber would probably be more expensive nowadays than they would have been in medieval times
01:02:18 <zzo38> Yes, but I mean in medieval times rather than now
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02:31:54 <salpynx> zz038: Late medieval prices for a barber surgeon (full healing rather than the smaller things): https://books.google.com/books?id=3TuNOcTEXigC&pg=PA113 The battle healing on your list seems very good value!
02:38:20 <zzo38> Do you have the one without Google Books?
02:42:02 <salpynx> https://archive.org/details/dailylifeinchauc00forg it needs to be "borrowed" though
02:43:27 <zzo38> Do you just have a plain text version of the price list?
02:43:35 <zzo38> (Retype it if you have to)
02:43:38 <salpynx> Also https://www.jstor.org/stable/24620701 looks like a relevant paper which also uses John Ardene as an original source, from JSTOR, but I can't find a directly accessible full copy
02:44:10 <zzo38> I do not need a full copy of the book
02:48:33 <salpynx> Most of the professional practitioners were in London, In other large towns there might be a few physicians and surgeons, but medicine was primarily in the hands of the barber-surgeons and barber-tonsors. The countryside was served only by part-time healers, unless a patient was wealthy enough to import the services of a professional.
02:48:46 <salpynx> Treatment by a highly skilled practitioner could be very expensive: Arderne recommended a fee of 100 marks for a great person, £40 for lesser people, and £5 as a minimum. In principle, medical practitioners were supposed to treat the poor free of charge, but it is unlikely that they devoted much of their valuable time to such charity.
02:49:11 <salpynx> 2nd sentence is about all that is relevant for full healing
02:51:18 <zzo38> Five pounds is a lot more than I put. I suppose many poor people are unlikely to be able to read the price list anyways
02:58:32 <zzo38> I changed the price for "healing wounds from battle" now it is increased to five pounds. I do not remember exactly what prices the GM said, but I think it wasn't higher than that. Once the GM reads it, if he remember what he said, and also once he reads the footnote I added, then he might tell me to change it (he has the ability to change it by himself, but he doesn't use that, and I do instead).
03:03:49 <salpynx> 20s for an application of Mercury ointment for treating scabies from the JSOR paper (16 pages), not many other specifics though. A lot about treating paupers for free and from others accepting "presents of fowls and ducks"
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06:42:55 <zzo38> For HTTP ranges, in addition to "bytes", we can also have "lines", "items", and "unixtime" ranges. The syntax is same like byte ranges but the name is difference.
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09:42:18 <int-e> moin moerjan
09:42:38 * Taneb hellio
09:43:25 <int-e> fungot`: be reasonable
09:43:26 <fungot`> int-e: figured that just now?! i've always used ghost for kicking my own fnord function. it accepts three arguments: a cell, fnord
09:43:41 <int-e> close enough.
10:00:00 <oerjan> moint-e
10:00:28 <oerjan> fungot`: i think you left out an argument
10:00:28 <fungot`> oerjan: they sure have weird bodies burned and fnord sacrificed to some deities like dijkstra or so.
10:01:09 <int-e> oerjan: I thought it was just missing a comma after "a".
10:01:19 <oerjan> a, ha
10:01:37 <oerjan> hineb
10:26:25 <oerjan> `addquote <b_jonas> I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayacc harder to sue
10:26:27 <HackEso> 1330) <b_jonas> I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayacc harder to sue
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11:26:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58627 * Plokmijnuhby * (+681) Created page with "I'm trying to write a compiler, and I've noticed some problems. In commands like: The proof for the element of the name x and value 2 being in set P has been proven weak. the..."
11:28:28 <int-e> `? ray
11:28:29 <HackEso> ray? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:29:23 <int-e> Raytracing should be a subfield of oceanic biology.
11:31:25 <int-e> "marine" is the right adjective.
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12:19:55 <b_jonas> Hmm, so artifact elven swords are supposed to glow _blue_ when orcs are nearby? I assumed they'd glow yellow or orange or something.
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12:32:30 <int-e> blue is the coolest glow :)
12:33:39 <int-e> fun. 'Both Obi-Wan and Anakin's were blue; Vader's was red. Those colors remained the standard until "Return of the Jedi," when Lucas had the color of Luke's new lightsaber blade changed to green so that it would stand out better against the blue sky of Tatooine.'
12:47:25 <b_jonas> salpynx: interesting. I wonder if that's real full healing, or just "full healing" up to 300 or 500 HP
13:08:00 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58628&oldid=58619 * Gamer * (+210)
13:08:13 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58629&oldid=58628 * Gamer * (+15)
13:08:55 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58630&oldid=58629 * Gamer * (+13) /* Madbrain (Python) */
13:12:50 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58631&oldid=58630 * Gamer * (-202)
13:13:21 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58632&oldid=58631 * Gamer * (+30)
13:13:53 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58633&oldid=58610 * Gamer * (+10) /* Flow Control Commands */
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14:27:12 <b_jonas> `? zelda
14:27:13 <HackEso> zelda? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:27:16 <b_jonas> `? link
14:27:17 <HackEso> link? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:38:02 <b_jonas> `? ganon
14:38:06 <HackEso> ganon? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:40:19 <b_jonas> ``` head wisdom/ga*o | sport
14:40:20 <HackEso> 1/2:==> wisdom/gaspacho <== \ You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off! \ \ ==> wisdom/gaspasjo <== \ Gaspasjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days \ \ ==> wisdom/gaspatsjo <== \ gaspatsjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days \ \ ==> wisdom/gaszpacho <== \ gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days \ \ ==> wisdom/gazpacho <== \
14:40:21 <b_jonas> ` n
14:40:21 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
14:40:24 <b_jonas> `n
14:40:24 <HackEso> 2/2:You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off! \ \ ==> wisdom/gazspaczo <== \ gazspaczo iz a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz
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14:54:32 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181208.html
14:54:33 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181208.html: b_jonas
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20:11:59 <zzo38> Have you ever play mahjong and have heaven? That is highly unlikely; I never have done.
20:14:26 <zzo38> I wrote rules of Pokemon mahjong: https://arin.ga/ASWzV9 Please read it see if you think it is good, and whatever suggestions/questions/complaints about it?
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21:02:50 <zzo38> Do you like this Pokemon mahjong I wrote now? Is there anything I missed, perhaps? Is there any mistake?
21:37:25 <esowiki> [[Unfedern]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58634&oldid=57352 * Zseri * (+1) correct file extension
21:48:38 <paul2520> that looks cool & fun, zzo38. also arin.ga is neat. I might try and host a clone
21:56:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: ouch. what's the easy way to turn off syntax coloring for that arin.ga page?
21:56:31 <b_jonas> ah, there's a "raw" link
22:00:43 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, you can use the "raw" link. You can also use curl to download it; you get plain text in that case too.
22:01:52 <zzo38> paul2520: They have the source code on GitHub if you want to make a copy.
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2018-12-09
00:49:19 <zzo38> Probably to understand the rules I wrote, is needing to know both Pokemon game and mahjong game.
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02:13:21 <b_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2707534/whats-going-on/
02:13:22 <HackEso> ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2707534/whats-going-on/: b_jonas
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04:27:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Marcsine * New user account
04:56:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58635&oldid=58593 * Marcsine * (+248) Hello, world!
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08:06:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58636&oldid=58627 * Salpynx * (+622) suggest new command
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09:55:00 <oren> could we cook things faster if the deep fryers were in a room filled with argon or is the somke point of oil independent of the ambient atmosphere?
09:55:28 <shachaf> Is the smoke point of oil the limiting factor for deep frying?
09:57:13 <oren> shachaf: my research indicates that they have to keep below the point where the oil starts breaking down
09:57:51 <oren> however wikipedia is unclear on whether this process is internal or a reaction between the oil and the air
10:00:29 <oren> further questions: would an oven filled with argon instead of air allow one to bake cookies faster without burning them
10:03:55 * oerjan points to cooking.stackexchange.com
10:04:06 <shachaf> i,i stacking.cookexchange.com
10:04:22 <oren> would an argon-filled kitchen allow the use of highly flammable liquids to cook in
10:04:32 <oerjan> `? oren
10:04:34 <HackEso> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters.
10:06:49 <oerjan> if only boily were here i'm sure he'd know.
10:07:18 <shachaf> `quote
10:07:18 <shachaf> `quote
10:07:18 <shachaf> `quote
10:07:18 <HackEso> 483) <Phantom_Hoover> I keep asking random people for "friendship <thing>" and it's crippling
10:07:19 <shachaf> `quote
10:07:19 <shachaf> `quote
10:07:19 <HackEso> 1196) <fizzie> I am in room number 404. <fizzie> I keep not finding it and walking past the door.
10:07:20 <HackEso> 532) <myndzi> lol :(
10:07:20 <HackEso> 821) <Gregor> Apparently http://code.google.com/p/hgfs/ now exists. <Gregor> Oh, that's 2008. I'm sure I would've found it and rejected it for some reason before then X-D [...] <Gregor> Right, yeah. “Can't get the damned thing working.”
10:07:20 <HackEso> 176) <fizzie> The Perl script is probably slower than the Befunge code.
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10:11:06 <oerjan> `learn_append oren To escape the (build) system he's considering a career change to mad culinary science.
10:11:08 <HackEso> Learned 'oren': oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. To escape the (build) system he's considering a career change to mad culinary science.
10:11:41 <oerjan> it's the logical explanation that popped into my mind, so it must be true.
10:11:45 <shachaf> `5 w
10:11:47 <HackEso> 1/2:redundancy//Since redundancy exists, it's redundant for Taneb to invent it. \ morphology//Morphology is the theory that you can never have enough phở. boily invented it. \ bofh//A BOFH is a bastard operator from hell. An example is the == operator in PHP. \ west midlands//Nobody knows anything about the West Midlands, and it has claimed the lives of at least two former regulars in this channel who tried to investigate so far. \ resolution//
10:11:54 <shachaf> `n
10:11:54 <HackEso> 2/2:As of 2015, highest resolution commercial computer monitors are 5120x2880 Apple and 3840x2160 other.
10:13:03 <shachaf> `cwlprits morphology
10:13:05 <HackEso> oerjän
10:13:21 <shachaf> `cwlprits bofh
10:13:22 <HackEso> ​\oren̈\
10:13:25 <oerjan> `slwd s/He.*soon/He finally's got the hang of toycj tuping/
10:13:26 <HackEso> usage: sled file//script
10:14:16 <oerjan> `slwd oren//s/He.*soon/He finally's got the hang of toycj tuping/
10:14:18 <HackEso> oren//oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He finally's got the hang of toycj tuping. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. To escape the (build) system he's considering a career change to mad culinary science.
10:14:24 <oerjan> oops
10:14:27 <oerjan> `revert
10:14:28 <HackEso> Done.
10:14:41 <oerjan> `slwd oren//s/He.*soon/He's finally got the hang of toycj tuping/
10:14:42 <HackEso> oren//oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He's finally got the hang of toycj tuping. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. To escape the (build) system he's considering a career change to mad culinary science.
10:15:33 <oerjan> `? muphry
10:15:34 <HackEso> muphry? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:15:43 <oerjan> `wisdom muphry
10:15:44 <HackEso> muphrys law//Mumphrie's Law says things will be misspelled at the worst possible moment.
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11:15:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58637&oldid=58636 * Plokmijnuhby * (+387) Rearrangement of my comment
11:16:40 <salpynx> question for the experts: Is there a meaningful difference in proving Turing completeness between (1) figuring out a transpiler (on paper or in a higher level language) between a known TC language and the target, and (2) creating an functional interpreter for the known TC language in the target? Is (1) sufficient for a TC proof?
11:17:37 <salpynx> I have figured out an algorithm for converting Waterfall Model code into ixqus (which definitely works for the smallish examples I have tried), but (2) is going to be substantially more work, and I'm worried something about the target (ixqus) will make it impossible to do properly, so a higher level language will always be required to do the transpiling. That would mean the target is not really TC, but only looks like it under some
11:17:56 <salpynx> Alternatively, if (1) _is_ sufficient, then (2) must be possible, but I won't have to actually do it :)
11:20:59 <int-e> (1) is sufficient.
11:22:46 <int-e> Intuitively (there are some technical obstacles but the basic ideas are sound), (1) gives you (2) (take a self-interpreter for the source language and translate it to the target language), and (2) gives you an easy approach to (1) (take the source program and combine it with the interpreter into a single program that runs it)
11:23:49 <shachaf> So apparently there's no better bound than PSPACE for the question "which of two sequences of naturals has the larger sum-of-square-roots?"
11:24:26 <salpynx> excellent, that is what I was hoping! It feels like it should have been obvious, but I was worried that there would be some technicality that somehow enabled one without the other.
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11:31:09 <salpynx> Even though Waterfall Model is pretty simple, getting any sort of _usable_ conditional happening in the target was quite challenging, though I think I have a good understanding now of the issues. I got stuck trying to implement an Autopsy interpreter, but hopefully have learned enough to continue. For some reason I think an Autopsy interpreter will be easier than a Waterfall Model one, even though the Wafterfall transpiler was more
11:32:10 <int-e> shachaf: hmm I've found http://cs.smith.edu/~jorourke/TOPP/P33.html and it's not at all obvious to me why it would be in PSPACE.
11:32:23 <salpynx> I guess interpreters are easier when the language syntax is closer, but Waterfall Model has nice clean logic regardless of target syntax, which enables transpiling
11:33:27 <int-e> (since that suggests that in the worst case you need to compute exponentially many bits of the results)
11:43:01 <b_jonas> oren: I don't see how that's relevant. doesn't a good deep fryer already let you heat the oil to a high enough temperature that higher would be worse on the food itself?
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11:47:06 <shachaf> http://ftp.cs.rutgers.edu/pub/allender/slp.pdf talks about it
11:54:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58638&oldid=58637 * Plokmijnuhby * (+622) /* Element removal */
11:55:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58639&oldid=58638 * Plokmijnuhby * (+0) /* Element removal */
11:58:09 <salpynx> int-e: thanks for the answer. I'd always thought self-interpreters were an interesting curiosity, made for their own sake, but now I see the utility combined with translation. You can code the interpreter in whatever language seems easiest, then convert
12:29:48 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58640&oldid=58611 * Salpynx * (+159) Turing Complete via the Waterfall Model
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13:40:31 <b_jonas> when's the next o?
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15:59:31 <b_jonas> See? They're copying themselves and each other again. http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/cryptography is essentially the same as https://www.xkcd.com/538/
16:09:24 <int-e> well, it is common wisdom... or at least ought to be
17:23:14 <b_jonas> ``` allquotes | tail -n2
17:23:15 <HackEso> 1329) <Ana-> Excuse me, I entered the channel without knowing what it was. I just wanted to talk to people <Ana-> 😥 <Phantom_Hoover> idk if you're likely to have much luck there <Phantom_Hoover> this channel is mostly full of computer programmers, not people \ 1330) <b_jonas> I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayacc harder to sue
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17:24:52 <zzo38> Do you have any more ideas about new yaku or other rules for pokemon mahjong game?
17:31:14 <b_jonas> wow, there's an assembler syntax for C64 where the pseudo-instruction that inserts raw data is called "!BYTE" with an exclamation mark
17:31:22 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that
17:31:23 <b_jonas> who'd use an exclamation mark for that?
17:31:49 <zzo38> Whoever wrote that program, I suppose.
17:31:53 <b_jonas> I don't even understand why AT&T syntax uses dots. why do you need a prefix at all, when these are among the most common pseudo-instruction
17:32:48 <b_jonas> and I sort of wish they hadn't, because most of their assembler syntax for x86_32 and x86_64 is actually saner than the intel syntax
17:33:17 <b_jonas> seriously, intel's argument syntax is messed up
17:33:34 <ais523> I think they want to make it clear when reading the asm which instructions are direct processor instructions and which are instructions to the assembler
17:34:53 <zzo38> Maybe that is why
17:35:31 <b_jonas> incidentally, I'd like to point at http://yasm.tortall.net/ as what seems like a sane modern assembler and https://www.agner.org/optimize/ as a sane disassembler for the x86_64
17:35:44 <b_jonas> um, https://www.agner.org/optimize/#objconv for the latter
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17:57:52 <oerjan> b_jonas: istr at least one of munroe and weinersmith has explicitly stated e doesn't check whether the other guy (or possibly anyone) has made a joke before
17:58:07 <oerjan> (although the istr was hearsay)
17:59:26 * oerjan stopped reading smbc a while ago because it seemed to be just bringing up depressing ideas.
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18:52:54 <b_jonas> wow. I have three consecutive quotes at the quote file starting from 1326
18:53:40 <ais523> `quote 1326
18:53:41 <HackEso> 1326) <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter
18:53:46 <ais523> `quote 1327
18:53:47 <HackEso> 1327) <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism
18:53:51 <ais523> `quote 1328
18:53:51 <HackEso> 1328) <wob_jonas> ARGH! I just saw something on the web that is publicly available, but I shouldn't have looked at it, and now I can't unsee it. I was naive, I used to imagine that the world was a nicer place. <wob_jonas> It's the rules of an insurance company for computing the fees of motor vehicle insurance in Hungary. [...]
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19:08:34 <oerjan> `` doag quotes | grep symmetry
19:08:36 <HackEso> 11610:2018-08-22 <arseniïv> addquote <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism
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21:28:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58641&oldid=58639 * Salpynx * (+2100) trying to figure out valid sets
21:43:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58642&oldid=58641 * Salpynx * (+643) Set == key:value swapped dict?
21:49:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58643&oldid=58642 * Salpynx * (+469) /* Turing completeness */
22:07:15 <esowiki> [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58644&oldid=58019 * BradensEsolangs * (-46)
22:07:40 <esowiki> [[Mep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58645&oldid=54906 * BradensEsolangs * (+1) Prefer it here
22:12:17 <esowiki> [[Mep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58646&oldid=58645 * BradensEsolangs * (+1)
22:16:21 <b_jonas> oh! Salpynx is back
22:16:52 <b_jonas> I think we gained a very useful contributor to esolangs with them
22:17:00 <b_jonas> I hope they stick
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22:24:40 <zzo38> Yes
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22:55:32 <Sgeo_> ...darn I just wanted to say something to oerjan about Archie search being dead
22:55:41 <Sgeo_> ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/frc/fantasy.rules.committee
23:02:09 <zzo38> Make the file available with gopher then; Veronica-2 still works, even if Archie doesn't
23:06:11 <zzo38> (There are also other problems with FTP; other protocols are often better, either HTTP, Plan9, Gopher, TFTP, or SSH, according to what is needed)
23:12:48 <b_jonas> plan9 protocol? is that the one with the white bunny? let me look that up
23:13:22 <zzo38> Yes, I think so
23:14:46 <b_jonas> yeah, though the bunny has small ears, unlike what I remembered
23:19:13 <b_jonas> nice as a logo, but I don't think it adapts well to a plushie, and that's something of a drawback when it comes to software mascots
23:20:55 <zzo38> Are you sure does it need to?
23:22:05 <zzo38> I suppose it might help to earn money if you can sell plushies, maybe
23:24:16 <zzo38> Which software projects do, anyways?
23:37:10 <b_jonas> no, the software project doesn't directly gain money from that
23:38:40 <zzo38> O OK, although I am not sure why they would need to make it adapts well to a plushie then (unless perhaps they expect other people will want to do), but not that there is anything wrong to make adapts to plushies
23:39:52 <b_jonas> they probably don't need to, yes.
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23:55:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58647&oldid=58643 * Salpynx * (+3) /* Element removal */
2018-12-10
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00:39:01 <izabera> i have a thing which has several possible "states"
00:39:26 <izabera> these states are finite and not even that many
00:39:34 <izabera> 66bits are enough to encode all of them
00:39:35 <izabera> but
00:39:51 <izabera> state 1 feels less random than state 138924533525526
00:40:34 <izabera> how do i quantify this randomness?
00:42:58 <ais523> one method is by seeing how likely each state is
00:43:12 <izabera> they're all equally likely
00:43:29 <ais523> then I don't see any reason why state 1 would be less random than state 138924533525526
00:43:42 <ais523> the only reason we perceive 1 as being less random is that's a more commonly used number in general
00:43:42 <izabera> state 0 is special and we like it a lot for some reason
00:44:25 <izabera> an easy way to measure this thing would be to take the distance of each state from state 0
00:44:27 <izabera> but
00:44:46 <izabera> there's some states that are as far as possible from state 0, which are not very random at all
00:45:43 <izabera> i.e. you can describe those states in a very compact way
00:45:52 <ais523> here's the start of a list of all integers, ordered by how frequently they appear in the Google Books corpus: 1 2 3 4 5 6 10 8 7 9 20 12 15 11 14 0 30 13 16 18 25 17 19 24 100 21 22 50 23 40 28 26 27 29 31 60
00:46:09 <ais523> err, I'm not sure if negative integers are included, the - might be parsed as a punctuation mark
00:46:19 <ais523> so perhaps it's the start of a list of all /nonnegative/ integers with that ordering
00:46:19 <izabera> ok...
00:46:45 <izabera> ais523: do you know how to solve a rubik's cube?
00:46:50 <ais523> hmm, I guess if you're treating state 0 as special, then the specialness of other states would be based on how they related to state 0
00:46:59 <ais523> izabera: I know one algorithm for it, and the general principles behind many others
00:47:10 <izabera> yes that's correct, the specialness is in relation to state 0
00:47:31 <ais523> if this is about a Rubik's Cube, I recommend reading up on the Thistlethwaite algorithm, it seems relevant here
00:47:40 <izabera> i know that
00:47:54 <ais523> in particular, it categorises states by what /sort/ of moves are required to go between them and state 0
00:47:57 <izabera> i know
00:48:19 <izabera> but still i don't think it's a very good measure
00:48:45 <ais523> hmm, this list of integers ordered by frequency cuts off at frequency 40, containing such integers as 19111919 and 16841721
00:48:59 <ais523> there are 245164 integers that appear at least 40 times in the corpus
00:49:19 <ais523> oh, 83000000000 too
00:49:34 <izabera> so there's this state that's called a superflip
00:49:54 <ais523> meanwhile, 395000000000000 has a full 46 occurrences!
00:49:57 <izabera> basically all the corners are solved, and all the edges are in the right position but flipped
00:49:57 <ais523> this is like art in its own way
00:50:12 <ais523> and by some metrics, it's the furthest you can get from the starting state
00:50:29 <izabera> yes it takes 20 moves
00:50:38 <izabera> it's the first case that was proved to require 20 moves
00:50:46 <izabera> 20 moves is the diameter of the graph
00:51:01 <izabera> can't go farther than that from the solved state
00:51:13 <izabera> but it's absolutely trivial and totally not random
00:51:38 <ais523> there are two metrics, in one of them the furthest-known position is apparently unique (as in, the only known position), in the other, there are lots of ties
00:51:54 <ais523> but both of them have either superflip or a variant of it as one of the furthest-known positions
00:51:55 <izabera> it's not unique
00:52:00 <izabera> there's a lot of ties
00:54:19 <ais523> if it's not unique in half-turn metric, then it must be quarter-turn metric which has the believed-unique maximal-moves pattern
00:54:25 <ais523> (which IIRC is superflip with some of the centres swaped)
00:54:26 <ais523> *swapped
00:55:58 <izabera> https://ruwix.com/pics/rubiks-cube/patterns/six-spots.svg things like this have 0 solved pieces, 0 pieces with the right orientation, and yet are absolutely trivial and they don't feel random
00:56:12 <izabera> thistlethwaite would vomit by only looking at it
00:57:17 <ais523> you might want to categorise by symmetries, in that case
00:57:36 <ais523> patterns like that are easy because their symmetries make it easier to spot a solution
00:57:55 <ais523> besides, isn't that pattern solvable with only slice moves? that's the exact sort of rule that thistlethwaite-like algorithms are good at picking up on
00:58:30 <izabera> what
00:58:36 <izabera> that's like
00:58:38 <ais523> the first step in the Thistlethwaite algorithm is to orient the corners
00:58:47 <izabera> do you even know what you're talking about
00:58:53 <ais523> and the corners in that pattern are clearly correctly oriented, if all in the wrong position
00:59:19 <izabera> none of them is correctly oriented, and the first step in th is not to orient corners
00:59:51 <ais523> izabera: the aim in Thistlethwaite, as written, is to get into a position from which you can ban moves on two opposite faces
00:59:55 <izabera> corner orientation is in <R U>
01:00:03 <izabera> i know
01:00:05 <izabera> you don't
01:00:20 <ais523> err, ban quarter-moves on two opposite faces
01:01:01 <ais523> I'm having trouble remembering what the restrictions are for each of the four phases
01:01:03 <izabera> you go from <R L U D F B> to <R L U D F2 B2> to <R2 L2 U D F2 B2> to <R2 L2 U2 D2 F2 B2> to solved
01:01:18 <ais523> it's the second step that locks the orientation of the corners, right
01:01:27 <ais523> because whatever face of the corner is on U/D is stuck there
01:02:14 <ais523> anyway, you can imagine a Thistlethwaite-like algorithm which uses different move sets
01:02:35 <ais523> e.g. one in which one of the sets allows the three slice moves (both quarter-turn and half-turn), but not any individual face moves
01:03:06 <ais523> the pattern you linked belongs (I think) to that set, which is a notable property of it, even if it doesn't neatly fall into any of the "normal" Thistlethwaite sets
01:15:23 <izabera> ok i'll correct myself, the six-dots case only has 8 flipped edges
01:16:09 <izabera> and depending on how you look at it, the first step in th is 4 moves and the second one is 4 moves and the last 2 are skipped
01:16:49 <izabera> well depending on how you look at it, you get to distribute the same 8 moves over the 4 steps
01:17:03 <ais523> anyway, even if I have the details wrong (and I probably do), six-spot is the sort of pattern that you'd expect to be solvable with only a subset of the legal moves
01:17:27 <b_jonas> currentliy featured question on StackOverflow asks how to do loops in metafont/ancient-APL style https://stackoverflow.com/q/53689001/
01:17:45 <b_jonas> wait, a rubik's cube question?
01:17:56 <b_jonas> oh right, it's by izabera
01:17:56 <izabera> ais523: i don't necessarily think that that is a good way to estimate what i want
01:18:03 <ais523> b_jonas: that doesn't look featured to me
01:18:28 <b_jonas> "66 bits are enough to encode all of them" => hmm, didn't it fit in 65 5bits?
01:19:09 <izabera> a little less than ~65.23 bits
01:19:15 <b_jonas> ais523: => wow, that's an interesting frequency list
01:19:47 <ais523> yes, I thought it was interesting too
01:20:19 <ais523> apparently this sequence is not on OEIS yet
01:20:44 <ais523> (and we'd probably want an up-to-date version of the corpus before adding it, mine's a bit old)
01:20:52 <b_jonas> ais523: does that count occurrences with or without multiplicity throughout books?
01:20:59 <ais523> it's also one of the longest inherently finite sequences I've seen
01:21:02 <ais523> b_jonas: with multiplicity
01:21:24 <ais523> as in, a number that's used once in 40 books and a number that's used 40 times in a single book will both have a frequency of 40
01:22:00 <b_jonas> ais523: how many times does 244823040 appear?
01:22:17 <shachaf> ais523: Was your general monad ? operator delimited by function?
01:23:08 <ais523> shachaf: it needs some definition of what scope it runs over; Rust's definition is "a function, or a block marked 'catch'" which seems reasonable; having it apply to a single block is also reasonable I think
01:23:29 <shachaf> But that makes {}/; not associative, right?
01:23:31 <ais523> b_jonas: less than 40
01:23:34 <izabera> this question is because a friend of mine wanted to come up with some position that was considered "hard" in any possible method
01:24:10 <ais523> shachaf: it's OK for {} to not be associative, I think; they aren't in Rust anyway because of lifetimes
01:24:16 <ais523> so Rust doesn't care about that
01:24:28 <ais523> and I'm not sure they inherently need to be associative in other languages either
01:24:31 <shachaf> Right, like C++.
01:24:56 <shachaf> Well, Haskell requires do { do { a; b }; c } = do { a; do { b; c } }
01:25:53 <b_jonas> "one in which one of the sets allows the three slice moves" => that would be very small and so almost useless
01:25:56 <b_jonas> IMO
01:26:08 <ais523> b_jonas: it's not that small if you allow quarter turns
01:26:26 <b_jonas> ais523: sorry, it's not featured. it's hot.
01:27:31 <ais523> b_jonas: here's a featured challenge on PPCG at the moment: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/105127/fastest-mini-flak-quine
01:27:43 <ais523> which will end up having to be featured three times, there was a 1100 rep bounty on it
01:27:48 <ais523> (which takes a while to hand out…)
01:28:30 <b_jonas> "one of the longest inherently finite sequences I've seen" => no way. there are interesting mathematically defined sequences that go to at least tetration sized numbers, perhaps more. most of them are more interesting as sets than as sequences, but those are still often put into OEIS.
01:31:07 <ais523> yes, but I haven't seen them
01:31:08 <b_jonas> ais523: re 1100 rep bounty, I used to think such couldn't be awarded at all, at least by a single user, because SE docs "https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/help/bounty" say "Additionally, if you offer multiple bounties on the same question, the minimum spend doubles with each subsequent bounty"
01:31:16 <ais523> the doubling caps at 500
01:31:26 <ais523> but someone else is awarding the spare 100 to reach a number that isn't divisible by 500
01:31:33 <b_jonas> ais523: "seen" in what sense? they wouldn't be listed explicitly on your screen obviously
01:31:41 <ais523> the definition
01:31:41 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, I know
01:32:00 <ais523> I guess it's finite and growing
01:32:14 <ais523> any day, someone could publish a book that contains the fourtieth copy of a brand new number :-D
01:33:07 <ais523> (and of course, the original source material has to go beyond the things with 40 copies into things with 39 copies, and so on down to 1; it's just that the list I have handy stops there)
01:33:34 <b_jonas> ais523: Baez probably knows more about this, but I think there's some small congruance class, one of 6k+1, 6k-1, 4k+1, 4k-1, such that most small primes fall into one, but eventually the complementary class takes over at some very large threshold, and of course around that it switches a lot
01:34:23 <ais523> b_jonas: I know about that too (4n-1 vs. 4n+1 is the best known)
01:34:28 <ais523> but it doesn't really define a finite sequence
01:34:44 <ais523> because it swaps back at some point
01:35:05 <ais523> it defines a large /number/, but that's different
01:35:12 <ais523> I guess you could call the digits of that number a sequence
01:36:17 <b_jonas> ais523: it probably swaps out at many points, so the set of numbers n such there are more primes less than n in that congruence class would be a set, not just a number
01:36:39 <b_jonas> the set of natural numbers, say
01:36:48 <b_jonas> uh no
01:36:50 <ais523> yes, the interesting number is the lowest element of that set, which is still quite large
01:36:51 <b_jonas> that's stupid
01:36:58 <b_jonas> sorry
01:37:02 <b_jonas> I meant my own definition
01:37:16 <b_jonas> anyway, yes, that's probably not one of the more interesting large finite sequences
01:38:37 <ais523> oh, it's not that big, 26833
01:39:41 <ais523> big enough that it'd take a while to discover without the help of computers, though!
01:44:33 <ais523> I think there's a related problem where it's much larger
01:45:20 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it was a different sequence then
01:45:39 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, but isn't the largest such number much bigger?
01:45:47 <b_jonas> it's the largest such number that's really interesting, not the smallest one,
01:46:00 <b_jonas> because there can be "random" anomalies around small primes
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01:47:21 <ais523> there are infinitely many such numbers, so there isn't a largest
01:49:33 <b_jonas> um, the largest number outside that set then
01:50:14 <ais523> there are infinitely many of those, too
01:53:25 <b_jonas> hmm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimal_solutions_for_Rubik%27s_Cube says the number of states with the maximal number of turns for the quater-turn metric is not known, but only very few such positions are known.
01:53:46 <b_jonas> not surprising, but I don't really pay attention to the quater-turn metric
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01:55:46 <b_jonas> I was surprised back in 2010 when the 20 move upper bound proof for the face turn metric was announced, on how early it's been found
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02:38:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58648&oldid=33787 * BradensEsolangs * (+149) /* Name */ new section
02:41:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58649&oldid=58648 * Ais523 * (+432) /* Name */ some history
02:43:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58650&oldid=58649 * Ais523 * (+118) OK, so now the spambot's made me visit IMDB to verify the details
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04:24:05 <zzo38> Does any web browser have a "save form" command?
04:28:56 <zzo38> Is there any proposal for a PNG chunk for XPM palettes?
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06:37:40 <zzo38> Now I wrote a specification for using XPM colours in PNG. This allows you to define the preferred mono or grey representation of a colour picture, as well as to do such things as match text colours and background colours of a document.
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07:42:33 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58651&oldid=58001 * Ais523 * (+1186) /* The Waterfall Model */ Hello, world!
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07:59:41 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58652&oldid=58558 * Ais523 * (+105) /* External resources */ link Ratiofall
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08:59:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: I could be wrong, but I sort of have the impression that graphic designers are very different from us, and they don't want that kind of tool
09:00:00 <b_jonas> including the ones that design game graphics
09:00:59 <b_jonas> also, not many people use grayscale graphics on displays anymore, it's mostly used in print
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11:48:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: re primes mod 4, let's see in https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0408319
11:49:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: however, it also says that I was wrong, the sequence is infinite
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12:03:20 <wob_jonas> that article probably has the plots were made by Mathematica, because it uses the Mathematica font
12:17:09 <wob_jonas> `? nobel
12:17:11 <HackEso> nobel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:17:12 <wob_jonas> `? noble
12:17:13 <HackEso> noble? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:18:10 <wob_jonas> slashlearn Nobel//"Nobel" is Norwegian for "noble", a title of honor awarded by kings.
12:18:35 <myname> i wonder if there are people who call the nobel price "fields medal of chemistry/physics/..."
12:19:45 <wob_jonas> I dunno. but there are people who point out that there are at least three awards that are sometimes called the "Nobel prize of mathematics"
12:21:32 <myname> great for the mathematitians
12:30:38 <Taneb> I think we should call more things Nobel prizes of their respective categories
12:31:01 <Taneb> Like "The Nobel prize of sheep shearing in Northumberland"
12:33:11 <myname> the nobel prize of sports
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13:11:01 <wob_jonas> and the IOCCC judges award the Nobel prize of obfuscated programming
13:13:51 <myname> obfuscated C programming
13:14:28 <FireFly> or, really, just the Nobel prize of C programming
13:14:38 * FireFly ducsk
13:14:42 <FireFly> ducks, even
13:18:39 <myname> i like the contest to create the largest c++ error message better
13:19:34 <wob_jonas> how about the http://www.underhanded-c.org/ _
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13:29:33 <wob_jonas> myname: https://tgceec.tumblr.com/ ?
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14:13:41 <wob_jonas> AHAHAHA apparently mailing list web archives aren't the only ones affected by overzelous "email address protection" filters:
14:14:13 <wob_jonas> "https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/119594" is a vendor's page with specs of a camera they make, and it says "Photo burst: 3/[email protected], 5/[email protected] or 10/[email protected]"
14:14:32 <FireFly> Heh
14:15:50 <wob_jonas> probably automatically decodes it in client side if you allow javascript or something
14:15:55 <wob_jonas> I didn't try
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18:36:45 <esowiki> [[Hurgusburgus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58653 * BradensEsolangs * (+3687) Created page with "'''Hurgusburgus''' is a programming language by [[User:BradensEsolangs|Braden]], to be very confusing. ==The basics of Hurgusburgus== Hurgusburgus is based on a [[queue]]. A p..."
18:37:13 <esowiki> [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58654&oldid=58644 * BradensEsolangs * (+43)
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18:46:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58655&oldid=57519 * BradensEsolangs * (-11) Hmmm, brain is not a swear word
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18:51:24 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58656&oldid=58566 * BradensEsolangs * (+19) /* H */
18:57:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Baidicoot * New user account
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19:08:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58657&oldid=58635 * Baidicoot * (+253) /* Introductions */
19:46:51 <esowiki> [[Butng]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58658 * Baidicoot * (+1317) Created page with "== What is Butng? == Butng was originally created by [User:Baidicoot|Baidicoot] as an extension of lambda calculus. However, it has since grown, and, with the help of [User:Go..."
19:59:49 <esowiki> [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58659&oldid=58658 * Baidicoot * (+820)
20:08:25 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58660&oldid=58536 * BradensEsolangs * (+4)
20:11:29 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58661&oldid=58606 * BradensEsolangs * (+47) /* Implementations */
20:21:37 <esowiki> [[Butng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58662&oldid=58659 * Baidicoot * (+10) /* Placeholder Law */
20:22:17 <esowiki> [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58663&oldid=58662 * Baidicoot * (+14)
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20:42:16 <mniip> HELO
20:42:25 <mniip> help me design a language
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21:07:56 <zzo38> What language?
21:09:56 <esowiki> [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58664&oldid=58663 * Zzo38 * (-14) User links weren't working; the user pages still do not exist yet
21:10:16 <mniip> something that is the next step above assembler
21:10:33 <mniip> with a real simple compiler
21:10:45 <mniip> I'm thinking forth-like
21:11:38 <mniip> but with functions, stackframes, and "backwards compatibility" with machine code in terms of data/text mixins
21:22:01 <b_jonas> mniip: by `"backwards compatibility" with machine code", you mean a well-defined ABI?
21:22:21 <b_jonas> or a foreign call interface or both?
21:22:38 <b_jonas> possibly a trivial one
21:22:44 <mniip> inline machine code
21:23:33 <b_jonas> ah
21:23:35 <b_jonas> ok
21:23:37 <b_jonas> so that too
21:24:15 <b_jonas> mniip: and what platform/architecture does the compiler compile to?
21:25:35 <mniip> 8086
21:26:21 <mniip> I am willing to ignore segmentation and consider that everything is bound to the CS segment
21:27:42 <zzo38> Would it be capable of making DOS programs?
21:27:44 <b_jonas> mniip: the original 8086? 16 bit mode?
21:27:51 <mniip> zzo38, COM programs yeah
21:28:18 <zzo38> OK. COM already sets the code and data segments same automatically, so you do not have to do that.
21:28:47 <mniip> zzo38, what I meant is I don't have to design the language around far pointers and the like
21:28:51 <b_jonas> all four of the original 8086 segment registers in fact
21:30:08 <b_jonas> which is useful because 8086 instructions implicitly refer to all four in some cases
21:30:25 <b_jonas> so if you stick to a single segment, then you never have to add segment overrides
21:36:08 <b_jonas> mniip: and what do you want the compiler to run on?
21:36:18 <b_jonas> and implemented in?
21:36:29 <mniip> 8086
21:36:30 <mniip> 8086
21:39:05 <b_jonas> mniip: there are some small forth native compilers for 8086, colorforth being one of the more infamous ones, you could look at those.
21:39:19 <b_jonas> though those are partly implemented in themselves, rather than raw 8086
21:42:44 <mniip> I wonder if I need keywords
21:44:19 <zzo38> There is possibility to have keywords but that aren't reserved words.
21:45:06 <mniip> nah I mean symbolic keywords vs alphanumeric keywords
21:45:22 <zzo38> O, OK
21:45:35 <mniip> "?" vs "if"
21:46:15 <zzo38> Yes, OK, I know now how you mean
21:46:20 <oren> mniip: if you have a stropping system, it makes it easier to have keywords
21:46:35 <mniip> a what system
21:47:03 <oren> mniip: like if all keywords start with a particualr symbol
21:47:11 <zzo38> Requiring apostrophes around all keywords
21:47:43 <oren> or in fortran, less than is .lt.
21:48:11 <zzo38> (You can also do it other way around, or require a prefix symbol for nonkeywords like LLVM does, or do like SQL does that you can optionally put quotation marks around a name if you want to make it to be treated as not a keyword)
21:49:35 <b_jonas> mniip: or, it's not a forth-alike, but you can look at http://www.vttoth.com/CMS/index.php/projects/49
21:49:47 <b_jonas> only you'd implement it in 8086 directly, not in itself
21:50:11 <b_jonas> it doesn't have inline machine code, only machine code as separate functions, but it wouldn't be hard to add inline machine code with some register use convention
21:51:22 <b_jonas> as in, add an emit statement that lets you directly emit bytes of machine code, 16-bit addresses of global variables or functions, and 8-bit address of local variables relative to BP
22:07:54 <b_jonas> apparently there's some disagreement in how the libc fscanf function should handle inputs that require more than one byte of lookahead, which comes up in the %g, %x and %i formats.
22:11:28 <mniip> you mean wrt the file pointer?
22:12:40 <b_jonas> mniip: that too, but more whether the partial input is accepted (as in, fscanf fills the variable with the parsed value and continues on with the pattern, as opposed to rejecting the partial input by not modifying the variable and stopping the pattern right there)
22:25:08 <esowiki> [[Hurgusburgus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58665&oldid=58653 * BradensEsolangs * (+45)
22:25:44 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58666&oldid=58661 * BradensEsolangs * (+0) /* Hurgusburgus */ Should be a zero, not a space.
22:27:26 <esowiki> [[Hurgusburgus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58667&oldid=58665 * BradensEsolangs * (+5)
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22:59:08 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58668&oldid=58655 * Rdebath * (+11) Undo revision 58655 by [[Special:Contributions/BradensEsolangs|BradensEsolangs]] ([[User talk:BradensEsolangs|talk]]) (Someone else didn't get the joke.)
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23:24:34 <mniip> ok, I think I came up with a specification
23:28:24 <int-e> scary
23:29:20 <mniip> :add :1{ @2 @1 + $: }
23:30:23 <mniip> no wait that doesn't work
23:30:27 <mniip> :add :0{ @2 @1 + $: }
23:30:29 <mniip> or
23:30:49 <mniip> :add :1{ @2 @1 + $=0 $: }
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23:33:10 <int-e> mniip: are you inventing a stack-based virtual machine?
23:33:51 <mniip> int-e, a mix of forth and assembler
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23:43:16 <b_jonas> mniip: that's not a specification
23:43:28 <mniip> b_jonas, correct, those were examples
23:43:48 <mniip> probably not useful to you but helps me clear up my mind!
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2018-12-11
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01:12:07 <zzo38> I have some Christmas lights that some days it is flashy and other days it doesn't flash do you know why?
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01:50:37 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58669&oldid=58668 * BradensEsolangs * (+12)
01:53:28 <ais523> hmm, are there any simple processor-dependend esolangs that compile via search-and-replace to machine code?
01:53:35 <ais523> *processor-independent
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02:00:47 <zzo38> I don't know
02:01:06 <zzo38> If not, then try to make it up, please
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02:11:11 <ais523> brainfuck is close, the only thing that doesn't translate directly is […]
02:11:42 <ais523> perhaps you could somehow use the call stack as a "start of loop" stack to compile dofuck?
02:12:40 <shachaf> That's where [] is do-while instead of while?
02:13:05 <ais523> yes
02:13:13 <ais523> always runs at least one iteration
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02:14:51 <shachaf> According to logs of this channel it's TC
02:15:51 <ais523> I know, I think I was there at the time
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02:50:07 <zzo38> Yes, if it is do-while then you could use a stack.
02:52:46 <mniip> what if instead + => inc (%rax)
02:53:17 <mniip> we translated + => jc .+5; inc (%rax); clc;
02:53:34 <mniip> then a [ could skip ahead by setting stc
02:54:29 <zzo38> What about nested loops then?
02:54:36 <mniip> that's where the stakc comes in
02:55:00 <zzo38> O, OK, you could then store the flag in the stack
02:56:17 <mniip> if carry is set, you push one and set carry, otherwise if condition is true then you push return address and clear carry, otherwise you push zero and set carry
02:57:05 <mniip> on ], if carry is set, pop number into carry flag; otherwise pop number into instruction pointer
02:58:15 <zzo38> The call stack also works differently for different instruction sets. There are other differences too.
02:58:33 <zzo38> Yes, what you mention can work
02:58:45 <zzo38> That is a good idea
02:59:24 <mniip> true
02:59:38 <mniip> you need IP relative call and no hardware stackframes
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03:07:39 <zzo38> MMIX has a register stack, and the GETA instruction can be used for relative addressing, and GO can be used to jump. There is then also PUSHJ and POP, as well as GET and PUT to alter the return address register
03:11:29 <zzo38> And then Z-machine code is another different thing: Subroutines must be aligned and must begin with a header specifying the local variables, and there is no way to find the return address. There are built-in stack frames.
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03:15:13 <zzo38> And then, TAVERN does not have any relative jumps at all, making it more difficult.
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04:08:09 <imode> has anybody seen u0_a101 lately?
04:09:33 <imode> the last time I saw him was back in august..
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05:55:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Quiddity * New user account
05:57:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58670&oldid=58657 * Quiddity * (+173) add self
06:03:18 <esowiki> [[SARTRE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58671&oldid=36242 * Quiddity * (+374) add description, fix link, remove {{stub}}
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08:19:52 <zzo38> I have now set up a Netsubscribe server, as well as the interface to use it with twtxt. Subscriptions are not yet implemented, but perhaps in future it might be
08:20:42 <zzo38> Do you like this?
08:21:32 <myname> what does that even mean
08:23:42 <zzo38> Netsubscribe is a protocol I invented. I have also implemented a program called "netsubsc", which is available at the Fossil repository: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/netsubsc.ui/ Currenly subscriptions/notifications are not implemented, although I intend it will be in future (you are free to help if you want to do!) Try connecting to my computer on port 9296
08:26:51 <zzo38> The protocol documentation is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/netsubscribe I mentioned this before on here too
08:26:55 <zzo38> Does that explain?
08:28:33 <esowiki> [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58672&oldid=58664 * Baidicoot * (+30) /* Placeholder Law */
08:28:40 <esowiki> [[One Instruction Set Computer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58673 * Ais523 * (+18) redirect from the expansion of the acronym to the page about it
08:28:49 <rain1> yeah I like it
08:28:53 <esowiki> [[Category:OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58674&oldid=46454 * Ais523 * (+4) link from category to the mainspace article on the subject
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08:46:42 <esowiki> [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58675&oldid=58672 * Baidicoot * (+375) /* Scopes */
08:47:34 <myname> do you reinvent the early internet?
08:53:04 <zzo38> I did not reinvent the internet; it is the same internet that it always is
08:53:45 <zzo38> It is still version 4; it is not version 1 of the internet
09:00:07 <esowiki> [[Simpler Subskin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58676 * Ais523 * (+4107) new language
09:00:45 <esowiki> [[Simpler Subskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58677&oldid=58676 * Ais523 * (+17) /* Definition */ clarify the irreversibility
09:01:32 <esowiki> [[Subskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58678&oldid=54349 * Ais523 * (+22) /* See also */ [[Simpler Subskin]]
09:02:06 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58679&oldid=58656 * Ais523 * (+22) /* S */ +[[Simpler Subskin]]
09:02:41 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58680&oldid=58487 * Ais523 * (+21) +[[Simpler Subskin]]
09:03:43 <esowiki> [[Simpler Subskin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58681&oldid=58677 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Definition */ fix thinko
09:06:53 <esowiki> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58682&oldid=56652 * Ais523 * (+142) /* List of OISCs */ +[[Simpler Subskin]]
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09:46:14 <oerjan> @ask Sgeo_ <Sgeo_> ...darn I just wanted to say something to oerjan about Archie search being dead <-- you're complaining about a file i probably haven't touched in two decades?
09:46:14 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:47:15 <oerjan> yep, 1994
09:50:55 <Taneb> Wow, there's about a 5/6 chance that was before I was born
09:58:27 <oerjan> Taneb: 14 March to be precise
09:58:42 <oerjan> (pi day)
09:59:26 <oerjan> the time of day is probably not precise, seems to be listed as 12:00 for all the files
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10:04:37 <Taneb> oerjan: that is before I was born
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10:14:41 <shachaf> Taneb: it was a 100% chance hth
10:21:07 <Taneb> shachaf: only retroactively
10:35:24 <shachaf> Taneb: Haneb
10:35:31 <shachaf> invent anything good lately?
10:35:41 <Taneb> I don't think so
10:35:50 <Taneb> I've been busy
10:35:56 <shachaf> maybe a fancy superhuman ai?
10:36:20 <Taneb> I would be surprised if I had
10:36:52 <shachaf> `? tanebventions
10:36:54 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
10:37:04 <shachaf> `? the limerick
10:37:06 <HackEso> the limerick? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:37:09 <shachaf> `? limerick
10:37:10 <HackEso> A limerick is a verse with two left metrical feet and three right metrical feet.
10:37:32 <shachaf> `? special relativity
10:37:33 <HackEso> special relativity? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:38:03 <shachaf> `? annus mirabilis
10:38:07 <HackEso> annus mirabilis? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:39:17 <shachaf> 1994: the year Taneb invented the universe
10:39:50 <shachaf> (or the other way around)
10:47:37 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep relativ
10:47:39 <HackEso> 9258:2016-10-13 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s#the triverse#special relativity#
10:47:44 <oerjan> hm
10:48:05 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s;, special relativity;;
10:48:12 <HackEso> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
10:49:18 <oerjan> `? grace period
10:49:19 <HackEso> The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma.
10:49:28 <oerjan> `? oxford comma
10:49:29 <HackEso> oxford comma? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:49:42 <oerjan> `grwp oxford
10:49:43 <HackEso> No output.
10:49:51 <oerjan> `grWp oxford
10:49:52 <HackEso> grace period:The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma. \ oxford:Oxford is the home of English, woven shirts, and the serial comma. \ tanebvention:Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or ta
10:50:14 <oerjan> `2 grWp oxford
10:50:18 <HackEso> 2/2:r tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
10:50:20 <Taneb> oerjan: things I haven't invented yet include Indiana Jones, the Oxford comma and a very long piece of rope
10:50:38 <Taneb> Although that does remind me of something I did invent
10:51:03 <Taneb> A new unit of time, the light-piece of string, which is the time it takes for light to travel the length of a piece of string in a vacuum
10:51:08 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s;, the Oxford comma;;
10:51:10 <HackEso> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
10:51:35 <oerjan> `slwd grace period//s;.$;, but he ran out anyway.;
10:51:37 <HackEso> grace period//The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma, but he ran out anyway.
10:52:13 <oerjan> `doag tanebvention | grep xford
10:52:16 <HackEso> No output.
10:52:26 <oerjan> `dowg tanebvention | grep xford
10:52:28 <HackEso> No output.
10:52:31 <oerjan> wat
10:52:41 <Taneb> Considering where I live maybe I should invent the Cambridge comma instead
10:53:00 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep xford
10:53:02 <HackEso> 11673:2018-12-11 <oerjän> slwd tanebvention//s;, the Oxford comma;; \ 9222:2016-10-10 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s#and#the Oxford comma, and#
10:55:46 <oerjan> `? italian
10:55:46 <HackEso> italian? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:55:50 <oerjan> shocking
10:55:58 <oerjan> `dowg italian
10:55:59 <HackEso> No output.
10:56:06 <oerjan> `grWp italian
10:56:09 <HackEso> tanebvention:Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. \ virgil:Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgendered see
10:56:17 <oerjan> `2 grWp italian
10:56:18 <HackEso> 2/2: seer Anchises stupid politics questions concerning contemporary noble families.
10:56:46 * oerjan smells b_jonas in the second one
10:57:32 <oerjan> `le/rn italian//Italian is the most melodious language known. Taneb invented it to sing better in the shower.
10:57:34 <HackEso> Learned 'italian': Italian is the most melodious language known. Taneb invented it to sing better in the shower.
10:59:22 * oerjan worries if that's too private.
10:59:55 <oerjan> Taneb: you don't happen to sing in a choir, do you?
11:00:00 <Taneb> oerjan: no
11:00:09 <Taneb> I am trying to learn Italian, though
11:00:43 <oerjan> i guess that'll have to do.
11:01:15 <shachaf> Taneb: How long is a piece of string?
11:02:22 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, what happened to `learn
11:02:33 <shachaf> tdnh
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11:04:16 <shachaf> Taneb: did you invent the photoelectric effect also
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11:12:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58683&oldid=58650 * Oerjan * (+298) /* Name */ It makes perfect sense. Trust me.
11:13:56 <Taneb> I tried to watch Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster once
11:14:05 <oerjan> shachaf: oops. i think i started thinking up something where "Italian" wasn't first, then changed my mind.
11:14:55 <oerjan> Taneb: was it too horrible to contemplate?
11:15:06 <Taneb> oerjan: it was just kind of boring
11:15:10 <oerjan> ah.
11:15:18 <Taneb> Might have helped if I'd seen the first two
11:15:47 <oerjan> `grWp einstein
11:15:48 <HackEso> einstein:einstein is a germaneau for "a stone"
11:16:07 <int-e> germaneau?
11:16:43 <int-e> `` diff bin/grwp bin/grWp
11:16:44 <HackEso> 1,2c1 \ < #! /bin/bash \ < cd wisdom; shopt -s dotglob; grep -R "$@" -- * \ --- \ > grwp -i "$@"
11:16:55 <int-e> ah
11:17:19 <int-e> so much insensitivity
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11:31:40 <esowiki> [[SARTRE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58684&oldid=58671 * Oerjan * (+34) Bare URLs are scow
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11:32:15 <esowiki> [[Template:Catseye]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58685&oldid=36281 * Oerjan * (+1) Use https
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11:34:48 <oerjan> i suppose a lot of catseye links are broken nowadays, the template is for the site moving, not cpressey reorganizing...
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11:39:19 <wob_jonas> oerjan: maybe cpressey is reorganizing the sane way, with proper redirects so that all old links continue to work?
11:42:13 <oerjan> no, the link prior to Quiddity's edit was broken.
11:54:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: something like that could be done for x86_64, but it's hard, because can't easily get named symbols, unless, you can do advanced search-and-replaces with backrefs, like in sed, or replaces into the search patterns, like in Fuun DNA or /// .
11:55:02 <wob_jonas> you could still do something without that, but it involves the runtime starting by making a jump table or even a full dynamic linker.
11:56:21 <wob_jonas> the simplest is probably to just set up a global table that you can index with small integers and points to globals, and put a simple header in front of functions that at the start of runtime searches for the start of the next header and fills the entry with a specified index in the global table.
11:56:33 <wob_jonas> That's a bit ugly, but could be done rather easily, with just simple search and replace.
11:57:00 <wob_jonas> The runtime would probably have to read through all the code in linear once at start time to locate the headers, but that's not too bad.
11:57:11 <wob_jonas> Linear time in code size that is.
11:58:09 <wob_jonas> But it's hard to tell what doesn't count as cheating, since the runtime could involve a whole interpreter.
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13:59:03 <esowiki> [[Rotten]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58686 * FireCubez * (+493) Created page with "'''Rotten''' is a joke esolang whose programs can have 2 forms: * <code><string></code> - Implicitly converted to `13$<string>` * <code><n>$<string></code> - Unescape the str..."
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14:08:58 <esowiki> [[Rotten]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58687&oldid=58686 * FireCubez * (+298)
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14:25:04 <esowiki> [[Rotten]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58688&oldid=58687 * FireCubez * (+2) /* Fibonacci Sequence */
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15:07:08 <esowiki> [[Butng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58689&oldid=58675 * Plokmijnuhby * (+0) Most languages use backslashes as escapes, but HTML likes to do its own thing.
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17:07:40 <esowiki> [[Butng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58690&oldid=58689 * Baidicoot * (-44) Rephrased out 'value' for clarity
17:10:03 <esowiki> [[Butng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58691&oldid=58690 * Baidicoot * (+61) actually finished a sentance
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18:04:28 * oerjan frappe Luciole -----###
18:06:38 <int-e> brutal
18:07:52 <oerjan> the french verb seems a bit less specific
18:08:00 <Luciole> Ou!
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18:52:13 * oerjan ATCHOO
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20:55:38 <oren> oerjan: le force de frappe
21:12:37 <oerjan> *la
21:17:36 <int-e> . o O ( A guillotine is the ultimate hair-splitting device. )
21:28:22 * oerjan atischo
21:29:36 <int-e> “Ring – a – ring of roses, a pocketful of posies, Atischo, Atischo, We all fall DOWN.”?!!!!
21:32:26 <int-e> (also it appears that "attischo" is the preferred spelling)
21:34:27 <int-e> fun. https://quizlet.com/107613526/grade-8-history-the-bubonic-plague-test-4-flash-cards/
22:05:03 <esowiki> [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58692&oldid=58654 * BradensEsolangs * (+51)
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22:58:06 <oren> eh k s eh k s eh k s t eh n t aa s iy ow n
23:08:16 <oren> stupid mumble rapper stop having marginal phonemes in your stupid ass names
23:10:53 <oren> we don't have a fucking nasal o in our ENGLISH language model
23:11:05 <oren> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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2018-12-12
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00:21:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58693&oldid=36637 * BradensEsolangs * (+135) /* A quine in Unary */
00:23:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:PP TIBSA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58694&oldid=55600 * BradensEsolangs * (+28) /* ... */ new section
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08:11:03 <esowiki> [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58695&oldid=54638 * Keymaker * (+796) A loop example just for fun.
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10:02:39 <int-e> @metar lowi
10:02:39 <lambdabot> LOWI 120950Z 27008KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 M02/M08 Q1023 NOSIG
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14:00:00 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cycliccircle * New user account
14:03:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58696&oldid=58670 * Cycliccircle * (+38)
14:19:59 <esowiki> [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58697&oldid=58692 * BradensEsolangs * (+25)
14:20:25 <myname> this one seems to have big plans
14:21:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58698&oldid=57064 * BradensEsolangs * (+158) /* Maybe esoteric programming is an adult/mature-content subject ... ? */
14:22:23 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58699&oldid=57734 * BradensEsolangs * (+170) /* Any admins left? */ new section
14:24:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58700&oldid=58699 * BradensEsolangs * (+124) /* Any admins left? */
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14:38:04 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58701&oldid=57570 * BradensEsolangs * (+242) /* Featured articles */ new section
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17:37:01 <oren> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRTfhkiAqPw
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17:38:25 <int-e> oren: which is it, overcute anime or horrible repetetive music or both?
17:40:04 <oren> int-e: neither. a video on why "object oriented programming is embarassing"
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17:40:51 <imode> is it that dude who has a hardon for nested functions.
17:44:11 <int-e> "The world is full of bad programmers and currently, most of them are doing OO" - I read that 15 to 20 years ago, and I forgot where I found it.
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18:02:16 <oren> I like the part the part where he says that past a certain level of complexity the UML diagram can't be planar but doesn't appear to know the word "planar"
18:02:34 <imode> oren: got a link?
18:02:52 <oren> at 14:20 or so in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRTfhkiAqPw
18:03:28 <imode> while I'm not a fan of OO he has some rather odd justifications for his arguments.
18:15:45 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58702&oldid=58700 * Oerjan * (+157) /* Any admins left? */ Nope.
18:19:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:PP TIBSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58703&oldid=58694 * Oerjan * (+100) gunsnide
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18:41:36 <shachaf> `olist 1148
18:41:37 <HackEso> olist 1148: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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19:27:19 <oerjan> oo
19:30:14 <oerjan> <oren> we don't have a fucking nasal o in our ENGLISH language model <-- just be happy as long as they don't use xhosa hth
19:48:46 <oerjan> long time no pizza
19:49:22 <int-e> how did you get there from "nasal"?
19:49:53 <int-e> (you should not sniff pizza, hth)
19:56:57 <shachaf> int-e: why not twh
19:57:43 <int-e> shachaf: it may get stuck in your sinuses for starters
20:01:51 <int-e> of course oerjan was sneezing heavily yesterday
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20:20:05 <oerjan> int-e: i'm not sniffing pizza, i keep the two paper towels separate hth
20:21:05 <oerjan> int-e: also i'm just implying the rappers could use far worse phonemes than a nasal o
20:22:29 <int-e> Uh-oh... that got me... let's be generous and call it "thinking": How does one write down farts in the IPA?
20:23:10 * oerjan has Qongqothwane on his list of songs to maybe learn someday. that ngq seems quite fiendish.
20:25:42 <oerjan> i'm sneezing heavier today hth
20:27:02 <oerjan> i suspect ipa doesn't have symbols for sounds not made with the head
20:27:27 <oerjan> although there might be a bilabial trill symbol
20:27:52 <oerjan> i think i may have seen the wikipedia page
20:28:55 <int-e> . o O ( Hmm, what about banging your head against a wall? )
20:29:08 <esowiki> [[Redstone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58704&oldid=41891 * AIden * (+760)
20:29:10 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilabial_trill and some languages even use it
20:29:36 <esowiki> [[Redstone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58705&oldid=58704 * AIden * (-5)
20:29:49 <esowiki> [[Redstone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58706&oldid=58705 * AIden * (+5)
20:29:49 <oerjan> int-e: i considered being more precise but i couldn't think of a word that covered only the relevant cavities
20:30:13 <int-e> I understand.
20:32:06 <oerjan> `icode ʙ
20:32:07 <HackEso> ​[U+0299 LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL B]
20:32:54 <esowiki> [[Redstone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58707&oldid=58706 * AIden * (-19)
20:39:12 <esowiki> [[Redstone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58708&oldid=58707 * AIden * (+179)
21:07:31 <oerjan> explainxkcd here i come
21:08:52 <int-e> way too american
21:11:36 <oerjan> indeed
21:19:43 <oerjan> actually i might have got it if my mind hadn't read FDR as JFK, stupid acronyms tdh
21:19:50 <oerjan> *tdnh
21:20:58 <oerjan> well part of it, never heard the actual speech.
21:21:21 <oerjan> that i remember.
21:25:45 * int-e didn't recognize FDR.
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2018-12-13
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01:33:35 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58709&oldid=58701 * Ais523 * (+498) /* Featured articles */ r to BradensEsolangs
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04:08:20 <imode> why can't I find anybody to work with me.
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04:10:10 <imode> seems like I can't talk to anybody who knows what I'm talking about, and when I find someone, they turn out to be an asshole.
04:10:36 <imode> whereas the ones who don't know what I'm talking about are wonderful people.
04:11:05 <imode> why is it the class of people I can converse with are always the worst.
04:11:08 <zzo38> My computer is a bit dusty. Should I clean it?
04:11:18 <imode> get a can of compressed air.
04:11:36 <imode> or an air compressor.
04:12:17 <zzo38> O, OK. Should I need to open it?
04:12:27 <imode> I would.
04:15:18 <zzo38> OK. When I replaced the hard drive they also cleaned it with a vacuum cleaner. They did not charge me any money for cleaning it, and I also asked them for a CD and they did not charge me for that either (although I paid 5 cents for it anyways; they accepted donations, and once they gave me the CD I decided I would pay for it; 5 cents is what they estimated it is worth). I did purchase the hard drive from them though.
04:15:40 <imode> sure, you can use a vacuum cleaner.
04:17:07 <zzo38> Tomorrow I could turn it off and open it and clean it perhaps
04:17:35 <zzo38> (I usually leave the computer on, but only turn off the monitor, since it is a internet server)
04:45:40 <imode> I'm gonna dismiss the dude I was working with as a nut.
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06:43:08 <esowiki> [[PISW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58710&oldid=56711 * Ais523 * (+0) caps in category name
06:43:40 <esowiki> [[MITLML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58711&oldid=54544 * Ais523 * (+1) spelling of category name
06:44:08 <esowiki> [[High Rise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58712&oldid=58351 * Ais523 * (+0) spelling of category name
06:44:32 <esowiki> [[Rockstar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58713&oldid=57936 * Ais523 * (+0) caps in category name
06:47:03 <zzo38> There seems no Linux driver for the temperature sensor of my computer, although the temperature for the hard drive can be read with smartctl. The computer doesn't feel hot, though (the monitor is hotter, although not much). I have read to elevate the computer six inches off of the floor, although I am not sure if I have anything to put it on top of, or what should be used.
06:47:53 <zzo38> (I do have the system load average displayed on the system status bar, though, even though I cannot get the temperature displayed there.)
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13:36:39 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
13:36:41 <lambdabot> ENVA 131320Z 10008KT CAVOK M12/M14 Q1032 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT VRB03KT
13:37:03 <oerjan> on second thought, i think i'll stay in for another day, and turn up the heat.
13:38:01 <oerjan> (although that's the airport, it's supposedly closer to M7 here.)
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13:38:34 <oerjan> although if i'm still sick tomorrow, i may have to brave the weather to stock up on caffeine (and pizza!)
13:41:37 <oerjan> queen albia is so powerful, which sadly means she'll almost certainly be out of commission before our heroes get to take on the big villain... such is narrative causality.
13:41:49 <fizzie> I just came back from Finland, it was pretty cow there.
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13:41:53 <fizzie> @metar EFHK
13:41:53 <lambdabot> EFHK 131320Z 02007KT 9999 OVC020 M02/M04 Q1033 NOSIG
13:41:58 <fizzie> Guess now it's sub-cow.
13:42:03 <oerjan> ic
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14:03:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Hw2.png]]"
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14:28:22 <esowiki> [[He110!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58715 * Salpynx * (+3373) Rule 110 meta Joking language
14:32:11 <esowiki> [[He110!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58716&oldid=58715 * Salpynx * (-1) category typo
14:32:31 <paul2520> fizzie: what do you mean cow/sub-cow?
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14:34:20 <esowiki> [[He110!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58717&oldid=58716 * Salpynx * (+13) /* Execution */
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14:37:09 <oerjan> . o O ( knock knock )
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14:55:24 <fizzie> paul2520: It's a channel in-joke, sorry. METAR syntax for temperature (or dew point) that's below zero but rounds to zero is "M00", and cows go moo.
14:55:45 <Luciole> heh
15:00:52 <paul2520> hah
15:00:54 <paul2520> thanks
15:12:51 <int-e> Hmm I guess I was not part of *that* in-group.
15:13:34 <int-e> Is anyone freeing the advent of code follow-up problems from the gamified frontend?
15:17:19 <int-e> I got as far as "To play, please identify yourself via one of these services:" and then lost interest.
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17:04:23 <esowiki> [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58718&oldid=58691 * Baidicoot * (+0) /* Scopes */
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18:09:18 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58719&oldid=57330 * DMC * (+18) /* Tedious memory initialization process */
18:13:57 <esowiki> [[Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58720&oldid=50776 * Ais523 * (+29) /* See also */ Binary Lambda Calculus deserves a see also, IMO
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19:59:17 <oren> @metar CYYZ
19:59:18 <lambdabot> CYYZ 131900Z 09005KT 4SM BR OVC005 01/00 A3020 RMK ST8 SLP237
20:14:30 <oren> https://www.glassdoor.ca/Interview/SoundHound-Interview-RVW6750307.htm
20:14:40 <oren> ^ lol this is hilarious
20:15:26 <oren> apparently pointer arithmetic is "features that most programmers rarely use or consider"
20:20:10 <b_jonas> heh
20:20:44 <Luciole> How do you know they asked about pointer arithmetic?
20:26:16 <oren> Luciole: because I know what the interview questions are
20:26:23 <Luciole> Ah
20:26:58 <oren> Luciole: we ask about pointer arithmetic, memory management, and bit-logic
20:28:32 <oerjan> obviously those are all essentially to your build system
20:28:36 <oerjan> *-ly
20:28:46 * oerjan chases muphry around with the swatter
20:31:06 <oren> oerjan: well, memory management is these days. a recurring problem is that GCC runs out of memory
20:31:31 <oerjan> . o O ( well don't use recursion then )
20:32:18 <oerjan> anyway, i thought good memory management these days was all about avoiding pointers.
20:32:36 <oerjan> (not references)
20:35:31 <esowiki> [[High Rise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58721&oldid=58712 * Ais523 * (+1070) /* Implementations */ add one
20:35:53 <esowiki> [[High Rise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58722&oldid=58721 * Ais523 * (-2) implemented
20:36:31 <oerjan> implementary, my dear watson
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20:55:00 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58723&oldid=58652 * Ais523 * (+68) /* External resources */ TIO! link
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21:47:16 <esowiki> [[Magic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58724&oldid=40978 * Voltage2007 * (-5) Fixed grammatical errors
21:55:42 <esowiki> [[0815]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58725&oldid=51053 * Voltage2007 * (-100) /* Language details */ Fixed grammatical errors
21:59:08 <esowiki> [[Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58726&oldid=57560 * Voltage2007 * (+7) Fixed grammatical errors
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22:04:39 <esowiki> [[Ettore Marmo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58727&oldid=36422 * Voltage2007 * (+1) Fixed grammatical errors
22:04:39 <zzo38> Now my computer is clean
22:05:21 <zzo38> I had to use chopsticks to clean the heat sink
22:06:01 <Luciole> that's an interesting choice
22:08:20 <esowiki> [[Kolmogorov machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58728&oldid=39252 * Voltage2007 * (+1) Fixed grammatical errors
22:09:01 <zzo38> Yes, but what is what I found to work
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22:10:36 <b_jonas> Hmm, there are newer prints and they got rid of the "Only the Ancestor should be revered." flavor text and the preaching bird mystic with the polearm in the image. So Unquestioned Authority enters into the list of cards where I prefer a particular edition over other editions.
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22:16:06 <b_jonas> Another interesting card like that is Dark Ritual: there are various combinations with different art and flavor text, and my favourite is the Ice Age one, which both has the necromancer with the goat horns (styled after Tim) and the flavor text "'Leshrac, my liege, grant me the power I am due' -- Lim-Dul, the Necromancer"
22:16:07 <esowiki> [[$]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58729&oldid=55719 * Voltage2007 * (+15) Fixed grammatical errors
22:16:35 <b_jonas> That's a fun one to chant when you get two mana for the card.
22:24:52 <zzo38> The hard drive in my computer seems to have a broken temperature log. Although it says the temperature history size is 478, only 128 entries are used (from 0 to 127). Do you know how to fix this in smartctl so that it properly uses 128 entries?
22:29:42 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, some there are different prints of cards I also sometimes prefer some over others, although I think you can use any version
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22:53:06 <esowiki> [[He110!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58730&oldid=58717 * Salpynx * (+777) /* Further development */
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23:27:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: certainly, I have used my other Dark Ritual because I haven't bought enough of the Ice Age printing yet
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01:24:17 <esowiki> [[He110!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58731&oldid=58730 * Ais523 * (+732) R110 isn't known Turing-complete from this start
01:24:44 <esowiki> [[Sequential tag]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58732 * Ais523 * (+35) redirect from abbreviated name
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01:42:47 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58733&oldid=58709 * BradensEsolangs * (+157) /* Featured articles */
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04:51:26 <zzo38> I altered how subscription works in the Netsubscribe protocol to what seems to be a better way. The old way (only following targets) seems to have some problems I can think of, so now subscriptions are separate from targets (although targets are still followed to find subscribers).
04:52:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Retrac * New user account
06:46:31 <zzo38> Why does the computer make so much noise? There seems no problem with temperatures, fan speeds, or operation of computer. If I had a microphone I might more easily be able to determine exactly where the noise is coming from
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12:17:02 <wob_jonas> I think the internet is broken.
12:18:39 <int-e> Hmm. What aspect of it?
12:19:08 <wob_jonas> int-e: it seems too silent right now
12:19:24 <wob_jonas> as if people were trying to post but their posts don't get through the internet
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13:13:47 <wob_jonas> see? I don't even get your replies.
13:13:59 <wob_jonas> or the people who'd reply don't get my chat
13:33:57 <wob_jonas> `perl -e warn 4*4*4*4 # that should be 256 I think
13:33:58 <HackEso> 256 at -e line 1.
13:34:00 <wob_jonas> yeah
13:34:05 <wob_jonas> `perl -e warn 4**4 # that should be 256 I think
13:34:07 <HackEso> 256 at -e line 1.
13:34:17 <wob_jonas> `perl -e warn 3**6
13:34:18 <HackEso> 729 at -e line 1.
13:35:11 <Luciole> 2**8 == 4**4; 2*8 == 4*4
13:35:12 <Luciole> hmm
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14:53:39 <wob_jonas> And then there were 29.
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15:57:07 <fizzie> From random mailing list chatter, a .hgrc [alias] tip: hg = !/usr/games/cowsay -f stegosaurus $HG_ARGS | /usr/games/lolcat; $HG "$@"
15:57:11 <fizzie> Gives you a little bit of whimsical fun when you accidentally duplicate the "hg" part, perhaps by pausing to think after writing it the first time.
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18:08:05 <oerjan> <-- assuming none of the numbers are zero, a^b=c^d, a*b=c*d seems to imply a^(1/a) = c^(1/c).
18:08:11 <oerjan> <Luciole> 2**8 == 4**4; 2*8 == 4*4 <-- assuming none of the numbers are zero, a^b=c^d, a*b=c*d seems to imply a^(1/a) = c^(1/c).
18:08:45 <oerjan> and then one of b or d can be chosen freely.
18:12:15 <oerjan> a^(1/a) = (a^b)^(1/(a*b)) = (c^d)^(1/(c*d)) = c^(1/c)
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22:08:14 <olsner> fizzie: that hg alias inspired me to make https://gist.github.com/olsner/4555427ccc67a5548268b40651399804 to spruce it up a bit
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22:24:33 <b_jonas> wow
22:27:38 <oerjan> now what
22:28:09 <oerjan> apparently it's the neighbor's turn to have a cold.
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22:32:11 <b_jonas> oerjan: now make it so that there's another olist, to make up for the long wait
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22:43:00 <oerjan> omen cannot be rushed, lest turn bad
22:44:42 <oren> I have something which could potentially be a flu
22:45:29 <oren> or could potentially be food poisoning
22:50:59 <olsner> flud poisoning?
22:52:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: or maybe drink tea. it's nice to drink even if you don't have the cold anymore.
22:53:24 <int-e> the olist giveth and the olist taketh away
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23:02:58 <b_jonas> yeah
23:03:02 <b_jonas> like Banjo
23:05:09 <b_jonas> by the way, has anyone figured out anything useful about the webcomic artist plague, the hypothetical common cause of the Giant's hand injury and Jeph Jacques's hand injury?
23:06:20 <b_jonas> has any of the other big name hand-drawn webcomic artists like Scott Adams, or the person who makes Schlock Mercenary, catch it too?
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00:24:57 <fizzie> olsner: Funky.
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06:12:02 <zzo38> One variant of Scrabble that I read is that you are allowed to exchange your letters with ones already on the board, one at a time, as long as the new letter still causes it to form a valid word. You can do this multiple times per turn, but only one letter is changed at a time.
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09:09:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't like the idea for that Scrabble variant. I think it would lead to slow play.
09:09:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: What you could do is to allow only blank tiles to be replaced, even with a different letter than the blank originally designated.
09:10:19 <b_jonas> And possibly add two more blank tiles.
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10:02:26 <Hooloovo0> maybe a rule where you can add letters into existing words, expanding them?
10:07:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Hello World! in He110! with other automata rules.png]]"
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10:39:19 <esowiki> [[He110!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58735&oldid=58731 * Salpynx * (+642) /* Further development */ encode other automata edge rules
11:05:56 <esowiki> [[He110!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58736&oldid=58735 * Salpynx * (+1087) /* Examples */ other automata example
12:25:43 <esowiki> [[Symbolic Python]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58737&oldid=53257 * FTcode * (-228)
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12:33:57 <esowiki> [[Symbolic Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58738&oldid=58737 * FTcode * (+186)
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12:53:21 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
12:53:21 <lambdabot> ENVA 151250Z 10006KT CAVOK M13/M16 Q1028 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 15013KT
12:54:09 <oerjan> my cold seems to have got worse again (although without the sneezing), so i'm staying inside for the day
12:54:23 <oerjan> which then makes my _back_ complain.
12:55:20 <int-e> @metar lowi
12:55:21 <lambdabot> LOWI 151250Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW030 M03/M09 Q1022 NOSIG
12:55:23 <int-e> old man oerjan
12:55:31 <oerjan> or rather, my back chose to complain today and a walk outside is the usual way i get that better :(
12:57:02 <oerjan> ♫ I am 48, going on 49... ♫
12:57:10 <int-e> you can walk up and down your room
12:57:40 <oerjan> i do
12:57:42 <int-e> soon to be square
12:57:58 <oerjan> i'll be so hip
12:58:16 <oerjan> (unless i need a hip replacement. not quite there yet...)
12:59:35 <int-e> `? tofu
12:59:37 <HackEso> tofu? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:59:49 <int-e> (I just stumbled across "Trust on First Use (TOFU)")
13:01:08 <int-e> `grWp carbon
13:01:10 <HackEso> No output.
13:01:15 <int-e> `quote carbon
13:01:15 <HackEso> 28) <ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
13:02:46 <oerjan> salpynx's he110 makes me wonder if anyone's tried to make something like a hello, world in rule 110 itself ... something that starts from something else and then looks like it for a bit
13:02:51 <int-e> fungot`: say something?
13:02:51 <fungot`> int-e: i may have figured it out already) was that it
13:03:18 <int-e> ^style europarl
13:03:18 <fungot`> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
13:03:42 <int-e> fungot`: pontificate?
13:03:43 <fungot`> int-e: as i explained earlier, and goes on until 17 april. i am in favour of sensible management and control system needs to be consistency. for example, i see a confirmation of the highly adverse impact of illegal immigration with all its weaknesses and its encouraging signs, i would like to seek your support for my opinion which it voted upon and adopted unanimously. it is still necessary, and regionalisation, which i would a
13:04:19 <int-e> ^style
13:04:19 <fungot`> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:04:28 <int-e> ^style agora
13:04:28 <fungot`> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
13:04:40 <int-e> fungot
13:04:40 <fungot`> int-e: whenever a player randomly from among all the properties named to the public
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13:12:31 <oerjan> fizzie: these days there should be a ukparl style
13:13:28 <oerjan> (that thing looks more and more like a big game of chicken)
13:15:54 <int-e> are there transcripts of the debates?
13:16:04 <int-e> hmm, +public
13:18:01 <oerjan> i wanted to pun tofu with meatless, but cannot find any confirmation that the latter has the metaphoric meaning i imagine
13:19:31 <oerjan> "The single largest strength of any TOFU-style model is that a human being must initially validate every interaction." "The largest weakness of any TOFU-style model is that a human being must initially validate every interaction,"
13:25:54 <int-e> secure communication between people would be so easy without the people
13:26:25 <oerjan> that would be quotable if it weren't too obvious
13:26:50 <int-e> secure communication between people would be so easy without the human factor
13:26:51 <int-e> :P
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13:27:55 <int-e> also https://xkcd.com/703/
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15:54:48 <fizzie> int-e: "This Hansard corpus (or collection of texts) contains nearly every speech given in the British Parliament from 1803-2005, and it allows you to search these speeches (including semantically-based searches) in ways that are not possible with any other resource."
15:55:03 <fizzie> Unfortunately, 2005 is a little too far in the past to reflect the... recent events.
15:55:29 <fizzie> Still, could be worth to include. I haven't added any corpora in a while.
15:56:59 <fizzie> Except it looks like the data isn't freely available there, it's just a search engine. Maybe. But perhaps it's available somewhere else.
15:58:15 <fizzie> Good, there's a CC-BY-licensed corpus of "British parliamentary debates from 1998 to 2015" at Ortolang.
15:58:22 <fizzie> Still a bit dated for this particular use though.
15:58:38 <oerjan> aww
15:59:15 <fizzie> I'm sure in a decade or two we'll (a) all look back on this and laugh (b) have it available.
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16:25:59 <fizzie> oerjan: I opened the newest of the files at random, and they're talking about brexit.
16:32:50 <fizzie> Ooh, TheyWorkForYou publishes a rsyncable database that is actually up to date.
16:33:48 <fizzie> When was that damnable referendum again? Maybe I'll train from that day up to present.
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16:36:14 <oerjan> yay
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16:57:46 <fizzie> "Finished reading 25663587 words."
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17:19:02 <zzo38> A mahjong rule variant: If someone makes a closed kan while you have riichi, if the one they make kan is the only possible card that could complete your hand, then you win; it counts as tsumo rather than ron.
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18:34:11 <imode> anybody wanna contest that sets are computationally elusive.
18:38:46 <int-e> imode: that sounds a bit too vague for my liking
18:40:51 <imode> core reasoning: there is no convenient way to store a set as a single data structure that is simply unordered and unique. any computational primitives you use must have additional logic added to their operations to preserve uniqueness and a lack of ordering.
18:41:01 <int-e> A precise statement along these lines is that the set of computable (or recursively enumerable) sets of natural numbers is countable, for example, so there are uncountably many other sets that cannot be computed (recursivly enumerated).
18:41:34 <imode> you can use lists with a uniqueness predicate and ignore ordering, but there's an ordering there, and you're just using lists.
18:41:57 <imode> you can use any manner of other discrete structure but ordering is going to be there.
18:43:37 <int-e> on that level, for finite sets, lists and just equality is enough to represent sets... you just won't have a unique representation.
18:44:21 <int-e> Which btw means that finite sets of computable reals are tricky because computable reals don't have a decidable equality.
18:44:26 <imode> kind of what I'm saying. ordering and non-uniqueness kind of eliminates sets as a basic structure.
18:44:27 <int-e> You may call that elusive.
18:44:43 <imode> because ordering and non-uniqueness are fundamental
18:45:03 <int-e> not how set are defined
18:45:23 <imode> a set is defined as a collection of unordered unique elements.
18:45:33 <imode> that may be arbitrarily nested.
18:45:34 <int-e> axiom of extensionality: A = B if x in A if and only if x in B for all x.
18:46:01 <int-e> sets aren't ordered even in set theory
18:46:43 <imode> you aren't getting what I'm saying, so let me be more clear: there is no such thing as an unordered unique collection in computing.
18:46:57 <imode> there are ordered collections with a uniqueness predicate.
18:47:37 <imode> but I can't build a "set structured memory", for instance.
18:47:58 <imode> I can fake it by ignoring order.
18:48:08 <imode> and I can fake it by adding a uniqueness check to every insertion.
18:48:14 <int-e> meh it's really a matter of defining an interface for your data structure
18:48:49 <int-e> basically all data structures have extraneous information. For example, two equal big integers may have different addresses.
18:50:37 <int-e> So I'd disagree. Working with quotients (representations modulo some congruence relation) is everywhere in programming, and while it's possible to peek inside and destroy the illusion, it's generally not useful.
18:50:59 <imode> assume for a moment that you wanted to build a "computational foundation for mathematics", which basically means taking a model of computation and trying to define a bunch of useful math within it. we already have ZFC, so why not try modeling ZFC within that model of computation so the operations line up.
18:51:01 <int-e> So as long as we have equality tests for the elements, we can represent finite sets, no issue at all.
18:51:18 <imode> much like we tried almost a century ago.
18:51:57 <imode> there is no model of computation that exists that can define/formulate sets without that illusion _unless_ sets are taken as a computational primitive.
18:51:59 <imode> much like in SETL.
18:53:14 <imode> my question is is the statement above true, noting that the only reason it can be considered true is that every model of computation not presupposing unordered unique collections admits only ordered non-unique collections.
18:53:22 <int-e> imode: meh, I've done some refinement in Isabelle/HOL. For finite sets, typically one refines to lists there are two choices. a) equality only, refining to lists with unique elements. Whenever one folds (iterates) over a set, one has to use an associative, commutative operation. b) refine to ordered lists, which solve the unique representation problem.
18:53:29 <int-e> but a) is a perfectly viable approach.
18:54:18 <int-e> c) is a proper container like red-black-trees, which refine ordered lists and do away with unique representations again.
18:55:17 <imode> right. but that's kind of my point: you always have to suppose, to work properly, an ordered, non-unique collection in order to derive unordered unique collections.
18:55:35 <int-e> yes, but we're dealing with it.
18:55:38 <int-e> :P
18:56:02 <int-e> and as I said, the unordered view on a list is actually viable.
18:56:09 <imode> if mathematics is to be considered algorithmic, this is a non-zero unit cost to dealing with sets. enumeration, folding, any operation really incurs an extra step compared to starting with ordered collections.
18:56:25 <int-e> it's uncommon because usually orders are easy to define and give significant performance benefits.
18:56:49 <imode> an additional question would be: what would the "list" or "tree" equivalent of ZFC be.
18:57:02 <imode> hell I'll take non-well founded theories.
18:59:22 <imode> I get that you can "deal with it", but it's just a philosophical take.
18:59:41 <int-e> Embedding data types into sets tends to be tedious. You can carve out lists from partial functions from naturals to your element type, but that's rather ad hoc. In Isabelle/HOL there's some heavy machinery reasoning about cardinals that does that for a large class of least fixed points of various functors (and a bit more to allow codata).
18:59:43 <imode> what's more "fundamental" in structuring something? does structure imply some order?
19:01:12 <int-e> And that may be considered cheating at the foundations because Isabelle/HOL isn't ZFC, it's a Hindley-Milner typed set theory.
19:02:23 <int-e> But in any case, you can embed data type constructions into ZFC. You can also take the attitude that since you can embed Turing Machines into ZFC, and those cover everything computable, you don't need to bother with programming language types at all.
19:02:32 * int-e shrugs.
19:02:53 * int-e wonders where this is going...
19:03:16 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, but in theory you could mechanically translate that Hindley-Milner stuff to an underlying untyped representation, right?
19:03:37 <b_jonas> the type system is certainly useful, to avoid mistakes, but it's not some theoretical problem I think
19:03:42 <b_jonas> I don't think it counts as cheating
19:03:49 <int-e> But I think the main disagreement is still that I'm saying that quotients are everywhere and so standard that they are hardly worth discussing, and imode disagrees.
19:04:08 <imode> I parse your agument int-e as "it doesn't matter".
19:05:13 <int-e> imode: A point I haven't made: quotients are even present in mathematics, everywhere. Constructing rationals from integers, constructing reals from rationals... in the typical approaches, you have some representation of your new object, but it's not unique, so you take a quotiont.
19:05:31 <imode> not sure what quotient means in this context.
19:07:14 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotient_algebra
19:07:48 <imode> I think we have to consider the different properties of the things we build the "primitives" of math out of, and if math is to be taken as algorithmic (not necessarily turing computable, but algorithmic), then the properties of those things need to be neccessarily algorithmic as well.
19:08:50 <imode> which just made me think about some foundational stuff like ZF and ZFC.
19:09:12 <int-e> 1/3 is a representation of a rational number; it can also be represented as (-1)/(-3), 2/6, (-2)/(-6), ...
19:09:16 <imode> like "can you represent sets computationally", "how would you represent sets in arbitrary models of computation".
19:10:08 <imode> so I guess I'm just searching for a counterexample. like, what model of computation doesn't presuppose sets and doesn't have that illusion. where are the models where we don't have to "deal with it" or spend some time or space complexity.
19:10:47 <b_jonas> I don't think that sets are fundamental in the outside sense, as in, that we use ZFC in praticular as the standard axiom system is more or less an accident of history, and we could use many equivalent systems with data structures other than sets.
19:10:50 <int-e> so when defining Q, a common approach is to first look at pairs (a, b) with b != 0 (and value a/b), and then say that a/b = c/d if a*d = b*c, which defines a congruence relation (it's an equivalence relation which is compatible with addition and multiplication), and then take the quotient modulo that congruence relation.
19:11:05 <imode> right, and that presupposes ordered pairs.
19:11:26 <int-e> And then for computing with elements of Q, we routinely go back to representatives a/b, rather than writing out complete congruence classes.
19:11:27 <b_jonas> But I also don't think there's anything wrong with sets. They're simple and convenient enough, not very artificial, so this is a good choice.
19:12:21 <b_jonas> And yes, we can usually use representatives, but it's not essential that we can use them, and in some general contexts a choice of representative elements need not exist.
19:12:21 <imode> well, I think that ordered collections are natural from a philosophical standpoint. show me something without order, and I'll show you that it's not a preferred order, but it _is_ an order.
19:12:30 <imode> algorithmically I take that stance as well.
19:12:36 <b_jonas> Taking the whole equivalence class usually works as a fallback.
19:13:19 <b_jonas> It gets ugly when that equivalence class is not a set, because it makes proofs more complicated to write, but there's no real theoretical difficulty.
19:13:24 <int-e> imode: so that's an example of a quotient, which basically exhibits the same phenomenon you're worrying about for sets: the same rational number has several representations. A difference is that we have decided which representative is canonical, for every rational number (a/b with b > 0 and a and b coprime... but you can actually work with rational numbers without ever doing that).
19:14:48 <imode> that's actually pretty interesting. I actually wonder if there might be some foundation in something like a nondeterministic TM which enumerates a given set.
19:15:16 <imode> i.e "here's a bunch of potential orderings, pick the one you want, or pick at random."
19:15:51 <imode> some algorithm that enumerates/generates a set but does not presuppose a given order.
19:20:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
19:21:12 <imode> so that means you'd need to presuppose nondeterminism.. hm.
19:21:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
19:22:33 <int-e> imode: I'm sorry, I should not have been quite so dismissive. The issue you're describing is real. It's just that it's well-known and quite universal, we deal with it all the time, when programming, and also in mathematics itself.
19:23:28 <imode> it's alright! just trying to reconcile it with my personal sense of aesthetics. I have a programming environment that I'm building that already has a language, so I'm considering how I'd approach some foundations of that language.
19:23:46 <int-e> "yes, the program said [42,1,666,23], but let's just pretend that the order has no significance, because we know it's printing a set."
19:23:53 <oerjan> . o O ( what's the categorical definition of non-canonicity )
19:24:09 <int-e> oerjan: dym canonical?
19:24:29 <oerjan> s//al/
19:25:08 <imode> the interplay between deterministic computation and nondeterministic computation leads you going in circles. deterministic MoCs can simulate nondeterministic MoCs by enumerating all branches, while nondeterministic MoCs take deterministic MoCs as special cases.
19:27:13 <oerjan> . o O ( also any set that contains both 42 and 666 is trying too hard )
19:27:39 <imode> so if we say that you need a nondeterministic MoC to "properly" represent unordered, unique collections.. well, there's that problem of uniqueness.
19:28:09 <imode> nondeterminism gets you unordered collections, but you still have a non-zero algorithmic cost to determine uniqueness.
19:28:36 <imode> as in, "I need to check my with my collection every time I do something that may endanger the fact that the elements are unique."
19:29:00 <imode> that may give some credence towards multisets.
19:29:32 <oerjan> . o O ( snowflake-based computing )
19:30:41 <int-e> quantum sorting: shuffle your list based on the outcome of reading a qubit; destroy the universe if the list is not sorted.
19:31:36 <oerjan> destroying the universe is not in BQP hth
19:31:46 <int-e> this is, of course, a slightly more radical version of quantum suicide.
19:32:05 <int-e> (except for solipsists)
19:35:00 <int-e> . o O ( noone pointed out that I better use at least ceil(log_2(n!)) qubits )
19:37:05 <imode> ;)
19:45:39 <imode> so multisets may actually be a perfectly sound foundation. they only require a lack of ordering.
19:47:17 <b_jonas> nah, multisets are useless
19:47:27 <imode> shots fired. :P
19:50:09 <int-e> b_jonas: I have plenty of uses for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiset_ordering
19:52:41 <imode> so ordered, non-unique: lists/trees, etc. unordered, non-unique: multisets. ordered, unique: ???. unordered, unique: sets.
19:55:02 <int-e> (though it may be kind of telling that both definitions come from term rewriting people (though Oppen may have been (or is?) more of a first-order theorem proving person))
19:57:07 <imode> I guess I'm also biased towards ordered collections as a basis as well because in our universe, there always exists a "canonical ordering" for at least one thing.
19:57:31 <imode> time kinda ensures that.
19:59:30 <imode> like I can say "I don't have an ordering for this", but to do anything, you need an ordering.
20:00:24 <imode> you can construct an ordering, just like you can construct an ordered pair from sets.
20:06:53 <imode> be back soon. ttyl. o/
20:11:13 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:14:26 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:30:42 <fizzie> From training logs: "New: communist-manufactured pen"
20:31:13 <fizzie> "As [Gorbachev] went to sign into effect the dissolution of the Soviet Union, his communist-manufactured pen did not work, and he had to borrow a working pen from the CNN camera crew who were filming the event."
20:31:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: that's like the urban legand about the million dollar pen that can write in a zero-gravity environment?
20:31:29 <b_jonas> developed by NASA
20:31:38 <b_jonas> ah
20:31:40 <b_jonas> that's even better
20:32:20 <fizzie> "Alongside St John Paul II, President Reagan and our own Margaret Thatcher, we were instrumental in resisting totalitarianism and inspiring the captive peoples of Europe to stand up against their communist overlords. At the same time, the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Home Secretary were going on motorbike tours of East Germany."
20:33:06 <fizzie> (Unfortunately the models I've gotten out of this so far haven't sounded very good.)
20:33:21 <b_jonas> are you training fungot or some new thing?
20:33:21 <fungot`> b_jonas: particular currency. each office, the assessor in the scorekeepor's announcement, that is not prohibited or regulated by a
20:33:40 <fizzie> Training a complementary "ukparl" style for fungot, yes.
20:33:40 <fungot`> fizzie: ( -o) when, during agora's birthday is defined in the number of rules is decided by the
20:33:48 <b_jonas> nice
20:34:10 <b_jonas> do you want to train a bibul style?
20:35:38 <fizzie> I've tried some bible variants, I don't think I put any online.
20:37:06 <b_jonas> `bibul
20:37:07 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bibul: not found
20:37:11 <b_jonas> `? bibul
20:37:11 <b_jonas> hmm
20:37:12 <HackEso> bibul? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:37:21 <b_jonas> wasn't there someting in hackego for that?
20:45:38 -!- fungot` has changed nick to fungot.
20:45:39 <int-e> fungot`: can you say something about resilience?
20:45:40 <fungot> int-e: srfi-67 seems to be working
20:45:52 <fizzie> ^style
20:45:52 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
20:45:54 <fizzie> ^style ukparl
20:45:54 <fungot> Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
20:46:02 <fizzie> fungot: How about that brexit then?
20:46:02 <fungot> fizzie: and of any information capable of being viewed as important, the groceries code statutory? under the current uk system at the same in the hon. and learned friend the member for nottingham north ( mr allen) and the hon. and learned friend the member for west dorset, to many colleagues, the schools.
20:46:24 <fizzie> Surprisingly, there are other topics.
20:46:37 <int-e> fungot: fnord?
20:46:37 <fungot> int-e: that, of the fnord fr fnord, or kfw, sits, that what the hon. member, one surveyor, and my fnord, the hon. and learned friend, in the sense of a government lurching from one crisis to another: the nuclear deal, the billions to the uk over the us, the arab world, and the work of the house.
20:46:46 <fizzie> ..
20:46:52 <fizzie> That wasn't planned.
20:47:08 * int-e is feeling lucky.
20:48:00 <b_jonas> the hon. and learned friend the member fungot makes more meaningful statements than some hon. and learn friend members of the parliament
20:48:00 <fungot> b_jonas: the european union
20:48:02 <int-e> (but not lucky enough to try that again)
20:48:04 <fizzie> The Perl script I have can take a pre-set initial context, which is nice if you'd like fungot to make a statement on a particular topic.
20:48:04 <fungot> fizzie: is the hon. member of this house, including any concerns. from the time,
20:48:27 <fizzie> "the challenge for brexit is a wee step behind, as i very much want that unintended consequence?"
20:48:43 <int-e> good one
20:48:57 <int-e> but a tad too honest, I'd say
20:49:08 <int-e> fungot: teeth?
20:49:08 <fungot> int-e: my hon. and learned friend, particularly for the very youngest. i predict, and to those of the many fnord journalists, of parliamentarians.
20:49:36 <int-e> fungot: seriously, no brexit at all?
20:49:37 <fungot> int-e: i was a member, for the opportunity to get
20:50:00 <b_jonas> fungot: will you be more successful than Theresa May in convincing Ireland to quit the EU?
20:50:00 <fungot> b_jonas: at the time, given the minister a very specific issue, and that over 500 other firms, the third party, the sale of fnord to fnord alone, and would be the same government that schools, and sports organisations
20:50:03 <int-e> fungot: well I suppose there are other topics
20:50:03 <fungot> int-e: to fnord part of the uk, through the media, the radio, the importance of an independent uk trade policy. it is the time for the government to continuing the discussion with the fnord stakeholders.
20:50:30 <b_jonas> that is right, hon. and learned friend
20:50:42 <int-e> fizzie: is there a way for you to check whether "brexit" made it into the word list?
20:50:56 <b_jonas> the sale of... yeah
20:52:35 <fizzie> int-e: It must've been, otherwise the script for that brexit statement would've complained.
20:53:19 <int-e> ah, sorry. I missed the point of that quote.
20:53:20 <fizzie> On the sorted unigram list, it's somewhere around rank 240, between "doing" and "home".
20:53:39 <b_jonas> not bad
20:56:09 <fizzie> Top 500 most common tokens: https://zem.fi/tmp/top500.txt
20:56:21 <b_jonas> what is the opinion of my hon. and learened friedn fungot ofabout brexit?
20:56:21 <fungot> b_jonas: in that case, the hon. member, yet that is the only data that includes additional high-value investment, specifically the right point
20:58:06 <int-e> fizzie: so there are more closing parentheses than opening parentheses? fun....
20:58:39 <b_jonas> int-e: sure. unmatched opening parenthesis aren't very useful, but unmatched closing parenthesis can be used like
20:58:44 <b_jonas> #define F G(
20:59:07 <b_jonas> #define G(0) 0,F
20:59:10 <b_jonas> no wait
20:59:12 <b_jonas> dunno
20:59:27 <b_jonas> there's some C preprocessor magic that uses lists separated by closing parenthesis anyway
21:00:07 <int-e> b_jonas: and how does that connect with transcripts from the UK parliament?
21:00:22 <b_jonas> not at all probably
21:00:45 <fizzie> int-e: There might be some preprocessing issues there.
21:01:58 <fizzie> Just counting '(' and ')' in the source XML files, there are 78166 (s and 78170 )s.
21:02:01 <int-e> hmm, number one: 324 -3.60044 1 -0.601376
21:02:28 <int-e> well that seems close enough :)
21:02:48 <fizzie> Some of those parentheses may have gotten attached to words, I think there's some known issues about consecutive punctuation.
21:03:04 <int-e> unlikely that "their" and "who" are both squeezed between these two numbers.
21:03:26 <int-e> (oh...)
21:03:39 <b_jonas> we should start addressing people on esoteric "my hon. and learned friend"
21:03:51 <int-e> wow, "church" didn't make the list
21:04:03 <int-e> `welcome b_jonas
21:04:06 <HackEso> b_jonas: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:04:22 <int-e> b_jonas: there's a chance for you to do that :P
21:06:42 <int-e> but it sounds condescending to me... so if I get a vote on this I'm against it.
21:08:54 <b_jonas> ok
21:14:32 -!- MDude has joined.
21:14:56 <b_jonas> oh
21:25:31 <oerjan> fungot: so what you're saying is that for those two years, the hon. friends carefully avoided discussing the mess?
21:25:31 <fungot> oerjan: is the hon. member of this house, and the pay of the chief executive, but consequently her working years shows the success, or seeking to transfer the european law,
21:26:45 <oerjan> i have this feeling there may be a bit heavy line breaking
21:28:30 <Luciole> is this based on transcriptions from the house of commons?
21:28:35 <Luciole> ^style
21:28:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube
21:29:04 <int-e> ^style ukparl
21:29:04 <fungot> Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
21:29:58 <int-e> good question, hmm, I'd hope that this includes both houses?
21:30:29 <Luciole> probably
21:30:41 <Luciole> but the house of commons is the one with the more lively discussions I think
21:30:53 <Luciole> fungot: so how do you feel about a no-deal brexit
21:30:53 <fungot> Luciole: government should agree to and put to the people in a vote. he was never told he is pursuing his interest, to the rightful role
21:31:47 <int-e> Luciole: http://parser.theyworkforyou.com/hansard.html seems to be what fizzie used, and it mentions both houses.
21:31:50 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:31:57 <Luciole> ah
21:33:55 <b_jonas> fungot: yeah, my hon. and learned friend, that part is easy, but what shall the question of the vote be? depending on the question, we'll get entirely complimentary outcomes
21:33:55 <fungot> b_jonas: i, for one, and i have to be frank, the last 12 years. the canadian fnord food, given the secretary of fnord members, and to our way of life,
21:35:04 <b_jonas> well, at least you are frank, my hon. and learned friend
21:35:23 <b_jonas> int-e: do you also object against calling fungot my hon. and learned friend?
21:35:23 <fungot> b_jonas: this was the first time, the hon. member. a damaged and disrupted fnord by lone fathers, and should try to ensure, and to all the people.
21:35:39 <b_jonas> yes. it's always the first time. good excuse.
21:35:45 <b_jonas> you go scott free just this one time.
21:36:27 <int-e> b_jonas: I don't mind addressing fungot in a condescending way
21:36:27 <fungot> int-e: there is, to a degree, the nursing and midwifery council, the coroners and justice act 2009
21:36:36 <int-e> b_jonas: I think it has done quite enough to deserve it ;)
21:37:04 <int-e> `? fungot
21:37:04 <fungot> int-e: we, of course, of the north-east. it is my great pleasure to have the opportunity.
21:37:05 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
21:40:54 <fizzie> Luciole: It's from Commons, I think.
21:41:15 <fizzie> Or, no, maybe both.
21:41:32 <fizzie> http://parser.theyworkforyou.com/hansard.html "Debates (Commons), Debates (Lords), Westminster Hall"
21:42:30 <fizzie> I trained on the scrapedxml/debates/debates*.xml files, from 2016 June to present day.
21:43:08 <b_jonas> oh no! I think she's a witch!
21:43:34 <fizzie> I think that's "Commons main chamber debates" only.
21:46:43 <fizzie> I think for Lords I would've needed to look in the lordspages/daylord*.xml files.
21:50:26 <fizzie> oerjan: By the way, the lines ending in a comma are likely because the transcripts put all quotes in their own separate <p> element.
21:50:34 <fizzie> <p pid="c371.1/16">Hyde also said that as a housing provider, it needed to</p>
21:50:37 <fizzie> <p pid="c371.1/17" class="indent" pwmotiontext="yes">“make efficient use of its income to ensure we are able to prioritise building more homes to help address the housing crisis”,</p>
21:50:41 <fizzie> <p pid="c371.1/18">which meant it had to make difficult choices about what additional services it continued to fund and what it stopped.</p>
21:51:28 <fizzie> Other than that treatment of quotes, the <p> element seemed like a logical unit for fungotting. The full <speech> elements (which is whenever the speaker changes) are pretty long.
21:51:28 <fungot> fizzie: as a new member, and i can only conclude, therefore, the government have
22:07:23 -!- LKoen has joined.
22:10:32 <int-e> hmm, I wish DeepMind would stop saying things like "AlphaZero learned Chess in 9 hours"... and rather say "Alpha Zero learned chess using 20MWh of electricity"
22:11:04 <LKoen> they said it once
22:11:42 <int-e> (not sure what the real number is, but it should be in that ballpark)
22:12:01 <LKoen> (then arranged for every reader to repeat it a billion times)
22:12:16 <zzo38> I try to figure out how to best implement the batch notification in my Netsubscribe implementation. I thought to use a SQL table to keep track of what to do (so that if it fails once, you can try again later, by remembering where you left off)
22:12:38 -!- imode has joined.
22:12:38 <int-e> LKoen: they have two whitepapers stating this and a number of press releases... so the number is larger than one.
22:13:17 <zzo38> Do you have some ideas?
22:13:50 <zzo38> I am not sure exactly what to put in this table; I tried to figure out but then decided it might not do and try to think of something else. Or is there a better way?
22:14:07 <oerjan> <b_jonas> oh no! I think she's a witch! <-- wat
22:14:37 <imode> yeet.
22:16:58 <int-e> fun related number: The human brain consumes about 175kWh a year (assuming 20W, which estimate is backed by the Internet (tm)).
22:20:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
22:21:50 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
22:22:02 <b_jonas> oerjan: well, she floats on water
22:22:08 <b_jonas> sorry no
22:22:13 <b_jonas> I don't want to start quoting Monty Python
22:22:17 <b_jonas> that rarely leads to anything good
22:23:00 <b_jonas> I'm actually just listening to Hansel und Gretel, the opera, and it's about witches
22:25:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:32:02 <int-e> . o O ( grand surprise )
22:32:18 <int-e> though, actually, plural?
22:33:14 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, Ki tett itt csontból, húsból törvényt?
22:33:15 <fungot> b_jonas: on the hon. and learned friend the member for manchester, gorton, and also, i have to some of the people i have been seeing the build-up. seven of the new state pension, the member keeps it uppermost in the prime of our life, and the government and the government of the uk that the government avoid the failings of the uk energy. more have come to the house to do the same is not the will, respect the 62% who were to ben
22:33:18 <int-e> of course there's the movie... Hansel & Gretel: Witch Hunters
22:35:31 <b_jonas> I see you like the government a lot
22:44:56 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, Kopasszák le fejüket a hegyek, / s tegyék lábadhoz most nyírt erdeik? / Folyását a folyó fordítsa meg? / Borítsa búza vadon vidékeid?
22:44:56 <fungot> b_jonas: a new one, might feel that the title, the new uk government funding, the challenge, and the public,
22:45:06 <b_jonas> it is a challenge, yes
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2018-12-16
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00:35:10 <zzo38> I have started with the new subscription schema in netsubsc; so far there is a SUBSCRIBERS table and a SUBSCRIBE_USERS table. Later probably should be added BATCH and NOTIFIED tables. What are you thinking of this?
00:36:27 <zzo38> I have made a tag !mtgidea@zzo38computer.org for ideas of new Magic: the Gathering cards and variants; once subscriptions are implemented then I might post messages using that. If you are interested, you can subscribe too
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01:15:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58739&oldid=43890 * Only Onion * (+368)
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04:15:26 <zzo38> Do you like my specification of "xpMC" chunk of PNG files? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/xpMC That gives you the ability of XPM palettes in PNG files too.
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05:13:09 <esowiki> [[High Rise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58740&oldid=58722 * Ais523 * (+371) /* High Rise languages */ current line of thought: we may be able to avoid interleaving in counter machine implementations when using a geometric sequence + a constant offset
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09:13:41 <Taneb> This textbook has an exercise that is essentially "Prove Fractran turing complete"
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09:21:36 <Taneb> (the textbook is Quantum Computation and Quantum Information by Nielsen and Chuang, and it mentions Fractran by name)
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16:38:40 <oerjan> my honourable friend fungot, are you a lawyer or a member of the privy council?
16:38:40 <fungot> oerjan: the hon. and learned friend the member for new forest east, gedling, and of many others, to be a shortfall of the ad-hoc way
16:43:37 <b_jonas> wow, a giant eyeball. http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/
16:43:39 <b_jonas> um
16:43:45 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/
16:43:46 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/: b_jonas
16:43:48 <b_jonas> no wait
16:43:49 <b_jonas> darn
16:43:59 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181215.html
16:44:00 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181215.html: b_jonas
16:44:11 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's "my hon. and learned friend"
16:44:31 <b_jonas> ah yes, my hon. and learned friend fungot has just showed you that
16:44:31 <fungot> b_jonas: hon. and hon. and right hon. friends the member for birmingham, yardley, i do, i have a very high number, albeit the most support. labour wishes these opportunities, the countries that we have been to the house of the many hon. government and the board, that the deadline, that only in the la fnord, which commemorates the contribution to the debate,
16:44:44 <oerjan> my right honourable, gallant, learned and reverent friend fungot, what is your correct addressing style?
16:44:44 <fungot> oerjan: our other priority homeless the local services that we have as a member of the eu,
16:50:58 <oerjan> b_jonas: it's a bit more complicated http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/82149.stm
17:01:00 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1330.html
17:07:19 <oerjan> windows wants a reboot for the third time this month...
17:08:10 <b_jonas> oerjan: hmm, that is informative. but how do you address the whole chamber, such as at the start of a speech?
17:09:11 <oerjan> b_jonas: i dunno, ask fizzie to include some lord speeches hth
17:09:26 <b_jonas> The addressing are simpler in Hungary because the aristocratic titles are generally no longer used
17:09:33 <oerjan> to avoid being caught out by this, i carefully set my "activity period" to cover all the hours i'm awake, which is somewhat awkward with an unstable sleeping rhythm.
17:12:10 <oerjan> in norway, aristocracy was abolished back in the 19th century
17:12:30 <b_jonas> Also since 1989, people usually no longer call each other their comrades or their tovariŝ
17:15:16 <b_jonas> but it is true that politicians do use very different styles when they speak in the parliament versus amongst their party. that becomes very obvious if you hear the speeches of Mr Orbán in both cases
17:16:56 <b_jonas> wait what?
17:17:38 <b_jonas> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnwfwXnNiQ says that "you can only physically push one of the direction buttons at a time" on the NES controller