00:00:29 <bsmntbombdood> "D f(y) y+3; print(f(2)*2)" ==> "[Syly 3 +Ly Zd>r] sf 2 lfx 2 * p"
00:05:25 * SimonRC curses the newsgroup alt.fan.dragons
00:05:59 <SimonRC> I love to read it, but every time I read it my stomach starts churning.
00:05:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:06:29 <SimonRC> Sgeo: you missed the context
00:06:37 <SimonRC> 00:03:37 * SimonRC curses the newsgroup alt.fan.dragons
00:06:37 <SimonRC> 00:04:11 < SimonRC> I love to read it, but every time I read it my stomach starts churning.
00:07:09 <ihope> Sgeo, Misser of Context!
00:07:27 <SimonRC> maybe I have a crush on it
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00:11:58 <ihope> SimonRC: so what's this about stomach churning?
00:12:26 <SimonRC> I feel ill every time I read the newsgroup alt.fan.dragons
00:12:57 <ihope> Why do you feel ill?
00:13:45 <SimonRC> I know it is because the blood is being diverted away from my digestive system, like a f-o-f reaction, though my heart rate and breathing don't go up much.
00:14:35 <SimonRC> but I don't know why the newsgroup (or rather, I suspect, the concept behind it) is causing that reaction in me
00:14:43 <ihope> The concept behind it, eh?
00:16:49 <oerjan> hm, i guess if the conversation is mainly about grilling knoghts for dinner... (-:C
00:17:37 <SimonRC> many of the peole there are Otherkin
00:18:19 <oerjan> so basically you are envious because _you_ are not a dragon?
00:19:39 <SimonRC> I have always liked dragons, maybe it would be fun to be one
00:19:54 <SimonRC> but WTF does the group have that effect on me?
00:22:18 <ihope> Subconsciously envious?
00:22:33 <ihope> Look in a mirror and see if your eyes are green. That's a sure-fire way to tell, maybe.
00:22:49 <SimonRC> maybe it has something to do with my (partial) vorarephilia
00:23:05 <SimonRC> ok maybe you didn't want to know about that
00:24:21 <oerjan> well does that too make your stomach churn?
00:25:04 <SimonRC> Vore has ... other effects on me
00:26:29 <ihope> SimonRC: love of devouring?
00:27:18 <ihope> So is yours first-person, second-person, or third-person?
00:27:46 <ihope> First person is eating, second-person is being eaten, third-person is watching someone be eaten.
00:28:27 <ihope> That may have something to do with it.
00:28:30 <SimonRC> slight inclination towards soft-vore
00:28:37 <SimonRC> ihope: you think?!?!??!!?!?!
00:28:43 <SimonRC> ihope: see wikipedia again
00:29:17 <ihope> Soft-vore is not chewing?
00:29:33 <oerjan> well reptiles do tend to swallow things whole, don't they? (-:C
00:29:47 <SimonRC> Snakes come to mind as an example.
00:30:18 <ihope> oerjan: is C the eyebrows there?
00:30:25 <ihope> SimonRC: indeed, snakes do that.
00:31:54 * SimonRC wonders why he is telling random people on the internet things his parents and close friends don't know
00:33:17 <ihope> Ah, I have similar things.
00:33:23 <oerjan> maybe it is not speaking about dragons per se, but rather finding others sharing a similar fetish
00:33:42 <SimonRC> oerjan: I don't *think* the dragon-liking is anything sexual
00:34:15 <ihope> Oh, um... well, vorarephilia has some overlaps with it.
00:34:17 <bsmntbombdood> wow, [[vorarephilia]] has quite an active talk page for a one line article
00:42:21 <pikhq> There aught to be an Uncyclopedia article like that.
00:44:05 <SimonRC> I think the UC article on dragons is necesary reading at this point
00:44:43 <ihope> pikhq: sort of like Fisher Price?
00:45:34 <ihope> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Fisher_Price and http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Fisher_Price:_A_Retrospective
00:55:29 <bsmntbombdood> the reader is requested to go fellate a coprophilliac
00:56:58 <ihope> Go "eat" those who fuck shit.
01:00:18 <bsmntbombdood> Dragons tend to spontaneously implode when being huffed, especially the red ones.
01:07:05 <ihope> oerjan: makes them easier to huff, or something.
01:07:43 <oerjan> ah, it is just a trap, put there by devious dragons.
01:08:09 <oerjan> to _lure_ people into huffing them.
01:44:17 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vorarephilia&oldid=127070561
01:49:35 <Sgeo> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/UnNews:Theory_of_Sexual_Reproduction_revised (warning language)
01:50:44 <SimonRC> Sgeo: ah, already read that
01:54:26 <bsmntbombdood> However, there are some fears that the discovery will lead people to turn to atheism as a contraceptive.
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01:58:55 * Sgeo is glad to finally be using his FN password
02:00:24 <SimonRC> I didn't konw about passwords
02:08:54 <ihope> "According to an online study of 30 traditionally bad sounds, the sound of vomiting is the worst sound in the world." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomiting
02:10:05 <oerjan> that one went the rounds earlier this year in newspapers, i believe
02:21:15 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: oh, that thing
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06:22:08 <SimonRC> WTF?! http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/universe/vote/
06:22:20 <SimonRC> have these people not heard of cosmic rays?
07:15:29 <oerjan> well, if you put it together with that other theory that universes reproduce by evolving intelligent creatures until they recreate the big bang...
07:19:17 <GregorR> Wow, that's one funky "theory."
07:21:02 <oerjan> i guess the journalists just conveniently ignored those who pointed out that the _current_ accelerators are a far way from creating anything that nature doesn't do by chance.
07:24:09 <GregorR> Nature creates universe-destroying phenomenon (which, by definition, would produce effects at faster than the speed of light) by chance ;)
07:26:09 <oerjan> i sort of imagined that if the universe was designed, then the light-speed limit would be there in order to prevent catastrophes from spreading too fast.
07:29:03 <GregorR> Idonno, that sort of only makes sense with the speed of light in a non-relativistic setting.
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11:25:46 <ihope> The media are nice, but they often exaggerate things.
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11:32:27 <Figs> http://www.jbum.com/idt/r.html :)
11:32:36 <Figs> The R Programming Language
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12:07:33 <sebbu> i'm looking for a t, u or i programming language
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16:45:51 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
16:45:53 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
16:46:01 <EgoBot> To use an interpreter: <interpreter> <program> Note: <program> can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
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17:51:26 <UnrelatedToQaz> !glass {M[m(_a)A!(_b)<2>=(_c)<3>=(_a)a.?(_d)O!(_d)o.]}
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20:46:02 <RodgerTheGreat> <= high school pretty much sucks. College can be hard, but it's worth it.
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21:27:47 <ihope> I know high school math.
21:27:54 <ihope> Much of it, anyway.
21:28:02 <ihope> Is calculus BC considered part of high school math?
21:31:26 <GregorR> "Calculus BC" ... I don't think they had calculus that early in history ;)
21:39:26 <ihope> Back then, "calculus" meant nothing more than "rock".
21:39:57 <ihope> I mean, they must have had thousands of words for describing rocks.
21:40:27 <ihope> "Calculus" would be a rock used for mathematics.
21:40:57 <ihope> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Calculus
21:41:19 <lament> The Greek period introduced some of the ideas of integral calculus, but does not seem to have developed these ideas in a rigorous or systematic way. Eudoxus (circa 408 BCE - circa 355 BCE) used the method of exhaustion, which prefigures the concept of the limit, to calculate areas and volumes. Archimedes (circa 287 BCE - 212 BCE) developed this idea further, inventing heuristics which resemble integral calculus.
21:42:34 <ihope> The method of exhaustion?
21:45:03 <lament> the method of exhaustion.
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01:14:58 -!- pikhq has set topic: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment -.
01:15:32 -!- GregorR has set topic: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/.
01:15:38 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/.
01:16:10 -!- pikhq has set topic: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0.
01:58:27 <bsmntbombdood> at least be esoteric and put it in base 47 or something
01:59:54 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0.
01:59:56 <bsmntbombdood> CfkRAp1041vYQVbFY1aIwA== is base64, i don't happen to have a base 47 encoder handy
02:00:26 <GregorR> Every URL is subtly wrong now.
02:00:37 <ihope> [2007-04-29 18:31:01] =-= Topic for #esoteric is ``#esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/''
02:01:45 -!- ihope has set topic: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0.
02:01:45 <GregorR> That's fascinating, ihope.
02:02:48 <GregorR> All I did was add the channel name back to the topic X-P
02:02:57 <ihope> And what happened as a result?
02:03:00 <GregorR> What's hilarious is you all seem to have believed that I changed all the URLs :P
02:03:37 <pikhq> GregorR: You managed to remove an "h" from one URL.
02:03:48 <pikhq> Which is what I saw.
02:04:15 <GregorR> pikhq: All I did was copy/paste.
02:04:36 <pikhq> GregorR: You did that wrong.
02:04:46 <bsmntbombdood> wow, we've got people all over the place according to that frappr map
02:04:47 <pikhq> You managed to actually subtly change a URL. ;)
02:04:50 <GregorR> * pikhq has changed the topic to: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
02:08:14 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.cafepress.com/nonlogic.100812817 <- get yer T-shirts!
02:10:12 <GregorR> http://www.cafepress.com/donotputthebaby <- get yer better T-shirts!
02:12:14 <GregorR> http://www.cafepress.com/bizarregeek.11389675
02:14:03 <bsmntbombdood> ah, yes, "A Million Random Digits with 100,000 Normal Deviates"
02:20:06 <ihope> http://www.cafepress.com/ozyandmillie.16057398
02:23:28 <GregorR> http://www.cafepress.com/esoprog.33142406
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05:00:04 <fax> I just learned about "Gödel's incompleteness theorem" recently
05:05:55 <fax> very upsetting
05:06:11 <fax> Im probably just misunderstanding the implications though
05:06:28 <fax> (someone else said it was liberating, so :S)
05:29:23 <bsmntbombdood> 210210102110222222110210121202122110020210201210202022220222000200122122021111
05:30:22 * pikhq watches as Digg melts. . .
05:30:44 <fax> #x1D0BEB394D6B32F3984F404B709303FD50221EE9FC7C8E8A0C2BC62767036A8F7
05:42:49 <GregorR> Wow, nice, xmame idles high.
06:31:41 <lament> fax: what misimplications do you know of?
06:32:09 <fax> well you cant build 'non-trivial' system which you can prove terminate
06:33:42 <lament> that's turing's halting theorem...
06:35:40 <GregorR> Uh, yeah, what you've got a hold of there is the halting problem, not Gödel's incompleteness theorem ...
06:37:19 <oerjan> but a _fine_ halting problem it is, nevertheless.
06:38:52 <oerjan> of course this strongly depends on your definition of "non-trivial".
06:40:16 <lament> oerjan: i strongly suspect the incompleteness theorem and the halting theorem are indeed highly related if not equivalent
06:40:27 <GregorR> I think you could say that any Turing machine which cannot be simplified into a (some specific) different machine cannot be proven to halt.
06:41:18 <oerjan> you can deduce a form of the incompleteness theorem from the halting theorem, yes. just make a search for proofs that programs terminate.
06:41:27 <fax> oerjan: right
06:42:28 <oerjan> however the reverse is a bit more dubious, since the halting detection algorithm is not required to use logic.
06:43:44 <oerjan> i.e. the halting theorem works even for algorithms that give no evidence for their answer.
06:47:12 <oerjan> actually the search for proofs that programs terminate may not be quite water-tight, because a logical theory can contain omega-false theorems - saying that something halts but lying.
06:49:13 <oerjan> in fact it follows from the theorems we are discussing: there must be an algorithm which doesn't halt but which can never be proved to never halt. and then it is consistent to add its halting as an axiom to a theory.
06:49:39 <fax> you can simply run it
06:49:49 <fax> counterexample should suffice
06:49:55 <oerjan> but if it never halts you will never know that it never halts
06:50:59 <oerjan> the running will never produce the actual evidence.
06:51:25 <fax> ah "The particular value of Omega that you get depends on your choice of computer programming language, but its surprising properties don't depend on that choice."
06:51:46 <fax> so you cant have a language with omega = 1, which you can do "anything" with
06:51:56 <fax> or I really mean everything
06:52:00 <oerjan> (that is not the same omega i am referring too, by the way.)
06:52:10 <fax> what is omega-false?
06:52:27 <oerjan> i may have made up that term.
06:52:39 <fax> well what is the meaning?
06:53:55 <fax> are you just saying a proof which relies on some unproved lemma
06:53:55 <fax> and this lemma happens to be unprovable
06:54:10 <oerjan> i am referring to omega-consistency, which is a stronger version of consistency for statements about natural numbers. It means that if a theorem says there exists a natural number with a property, then there actually is such a number in the ordinary sense.
06:54:38 <oerjan> such as the number of steps before an algorithm halts.
06:55:11 <fax> but how can the alternative (you can prove somthing, but its false) be true?
06:55:21 <oerjan> but if a theory is not omega-consistent then it can contain statements that are proved but "omega-false": there is no actual example
06:55:34 <fax> that makes no sense
06:55:52 <fax> theres no example because I dont know it.. or because its impossible to find one?
06:55:57 <oerjan> if you have a theorem of the form "there exists an n such that P(n)"
06:56:28 <oerjan> but there is no theorem P(n) for and actual number n
06:57:18 <oerjan> then your theory is omega-inconsistent, but may still be consistent because you cannot derive a contradiction from the absense of something
06:57:39 <fax> thats a lot less drastic than what I thought you meant before
07:00:15 <oerjan> i think (off my memory) Godel's first proofs required omega-consistency, but that was later changed to ordinary consistency.
07:01:42 <oerjan> so what you get then is that the halting theorem can probably be used to prove the omega-consistency version of Gdel's theorem.
07:01:56 <fax> that last message didnnt come through
07:02:03 <fax> somthing is wrong with this program.
07:02:26 <oerjan> probably my slipping in an iso-8859-1 character.
07:02:36 <oerjan> so what you get then is that the halting theorem can probably be used to prove the omega-consistency version of Godel's theorem.
07:02:58 <oerjan> i have still not set up Unicode properly on this account.
07:03:13 <fax> UTF-8 seems the de-facto standard for IRC
07:11:49 <GregorR> UTF-8 is the de-facto standard for pretty much everything.
07:12:06 <GregorR> Except Japanese+Shift-JIS :)
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23:15:02 <SimonRC> I just mis-lexed as "billo frights"
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00:51:47 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: I saw that ages ago
00:51:56 <SimonRC> I was part of the pwning team
00:52:20 <SimonRC> I actually was the first to mention he was breaking invartiants.
00:53:32 <SimonRC> I mean, it's not as if stuff like (eq? foo (car (cons foo bar))) and (eq? bar (cdr (cons foo bar))) are that important are they? :-P :-P :-P
00:54:44 <bsmntbombdood> (not (eq? (cons foo bar) '())) is probably the worst
01:29:30 <bsmntbombdood> And really, if your code can't handle 0 coefficients in polynomials, it's just plain _wrong_
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21:27:37 * SimonRC wonders if this is a real punched card format: http://www.dur.ac.uk/s.r.clarkstone/g-i-l_card.PNG
21:37:17 <lament> looks fairly real, although not cut-off corner
21:48:03 <SimonRC> I can't find any info on 25*12 cards
21:48:11 <SimonRC> the source I got it from is so full of in-jokes that I am sure it must say *something*
21:49:43 <SimonRC> It's the "geeks in love" video (for the Lemon Demon song)
21:50:11 <SimonRC> The no through it frame-by-frame to spot all the jokes. There are hundreds
21:50:57 <SimonRC> in the shot where he is watching the TV, you can pause and most flash players will let you zoom right in to view everything on the noticeboard
21:54:12 <SimonRC> there are a few "subliminal messages" in the form of single-frame shots placed between the longer ones to disguise them
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21:57:08 <ihope> SimonRC: what is that?
21:57:30 <ihope> It's certainly not 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0.
22:00:45 <SimonRC> the animation's too old for that
22:01:09 <SimonRC> see here: http://uploads.ungrounded.net/295000/295165_geeksinlove_tmst_ng.swf
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22:51:53 <ihope> Do you love school?
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00:50:36 <ihope> You hate both summer and school?
00:53:09 <GregorR> So basically you hate living.
00:53:34 <lament> living = summer + school?
00:53:59 <GregorR> Depends on how old you are ;)
00:58:07 <ihope> And where you live?
01:01:09 <lament> i don't think that's ever true
01:01:21 <lament> school doesn't take 24 hours every day.
01:02:31 <lament> what, you sleep 16 hours a day?
01:03:18 <lament> in my case, that was about 8 hours a day.
01:03:34 <bsmntbombdood> all but a countable subset of my hours is taken up by school
01:04:06 <lament> however, you do have uncountable free time :)
01:16:33 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: create a list containing every free instant of your life from now on. Infinite lists are fine.
01:43:45 <pikhq> As is distance. That doesn't mean that distance is uncountable.
01:45:08 <pikhq> There's an infinite number of *points* of time. . . But measuring anything continuous is done not by a measurement of number of points.
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04:23:34 <GregorR> I wish I had a slide rule :(
05:39:09 <bsmntbombdood> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta_calculator <-- i want one of these
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12:47:57 <nooga> hey GregorR, where's yout C2bf?
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14:33:08 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: yeah, they rock
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15:07:39 * SimonRC reads about a bootleg amusment park.
15:07:44 <SimonRC> http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=1678
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15:09:14 <SimonRC> ah, here's the official site: http://www.bs-amusement-park.com/ChinaIn/about-e.asp
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17:15:22 * SimonRC recommend the works of _Lemon Demon_ to people.
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21:26:25 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :" + range(4))
21:27:32 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :" + range(4))
21:28:10 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :" + "blah")
21:28:23 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah")
21:28:25 <oerjan> ~exec sys.stdout("what?")
21:28:58 <oerjan> hypothesis: dead as a doornail
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21:29:10 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("QUIT")
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22:33:53 <bsmntbombdood> looks like ais523 killed it by doing ~bf ++++++++[->-[->-[->-[-]<]<]<]>++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<[>+>+<<-]>-.>-----.>
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00:27:52 <bsmntbombdood> "an ex-lover of the missing wife of accused spouse killer Hans Reiser has confessed to killing eight people unrelated to the case. "
00:32:05 <pikhq> Yeah. . . Sturgeon (aforementioned ex-lover) also has motive to frame Reiser. . .
00:32:37 <pikhq> (Reiser accused Sturgeon of attempted theft, in addition to the whole "ex-lover" bit)
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00:57:06 <pikhq> GregorR: You mind me asking how CPlof goes?
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02:51:27 <GregorR> Pikhq: It compiles Plof to C, but I haven't finished the runtime library.
02:51:36 <GregorR> Pikhq: A few simple things work (such as the Plof program '0')
02:53:34 <Pikhq> GregorR: Think you could shove a copy of Cplof into my home dir or something?
02:54:14 <Pikhq> Or just links to a darcs repo?
02:55:12 <Pikhq> Never mind; found the darcs repo (I think)
02:57:45 <GregorR> It's the "plof" darcs repo.
02:57:53 <GregorR> The same code base will be both cplofc and plofplof.
02:58:09 <GregorR> (No reason not to reuse the lexer, parser and frontend code)
02:59:12 * Pikhq tries to grok your C code
03:00:10 * Pikhq wonders why PlofParameters params is commented out. . .
03:05:26 <GregorR> Because that doesn't work yet ^^
03:06:11 * Pikhq *tries* to create the array constructor. . .
03:07:11 <Pikhq> Would it be acceptable for the array constructor to accept the array size as an argument?
03:09:57 * Pikhq needs to see what the hell a PlofThing array would look like to be sure what would and wouldn't be useful. . .
03:12:06 <Pikhq> GregorR: Is an array of PlofThings terminated by a PlofThing with PlofThing.type == TYPE_VOID?
03:14:05 <GregorR> Pikhq: By my CPlofC design, yuh.
03:15:36 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: In my ideal universe, C is the new ASM. It's used by compilers as the intermediary between high-level languages and the system.
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03:27:56 <Pikhq> I really should invest in a UPS.
03:28:20 <bsmntbombdood> my school just threw out some nice upss but wouldn't let me take one :((
03:33:52 <Pikhq> GregorR: You know what'd be *really* nice? A *generic* PlofThing constructor. . . Taking in a PlofThing and returning a copy of said PlofThing.
03:34:24 <Pikhq> It'd simplify what I'm *thinking* would be best for the PlofArray constructor. . .
03:36:18 <Pikhq> If there's no offense, I'll go right ahead.
03:41:00 <Pikhq> . . . And do you mind me asking the hell kind of indentation style you're using?
03:41:37 * Pikhq will wait as Gregor heads home. . .
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03:53:17 * Pikhq really, really needs a UPS
04:06:26 <Pikhq> Fairly bad storm. . .
04:06:35 <Pikhq> As in "tornados in the general area"
04:27:10 <GregorR> Pikhq: Feel free to make the PlofThing duplicator.
04:27:24 <GregorR> Pikhq: What's wrong with the indentation style in plof.c? :(
04:28:24 <Pikhq> GregorR: Actually, I'm wondering what indentation style it is so I can match it. . .
04:28:43 <GregorR> Four spaces, { on the same line except in function declarations.
04:32:56 <Pikhq> So, C-c . stroustrop
04:34:51 <GregorR> I had to look that up ... some people call it K&R :P
04:34:59 * Pikhq wonders how to handle TYPE_VARARGS and TYPE_NAME
04:35:13 <Pikhq> GregorR: Odd. . . C-c. k&r produces different behavior.
04:35:40 <Pikhq> Why is it doing 5 space tabs for k&r?!?
04:36:02 <GregorR> You probably don't need to handle copying TYPE_VARARGS and TYPE_NAME, they're for internal use only.
04:36:28 <Pikhq> Maybe have those return NULL?
04:37:09 <GregorR> I would stub them with *((int *) 0) = 0 until the exception system is in place.
04:37:32 <GregorR> (BTW: Wherever you see *((int *) 0) = 0, that's me saying "throw someException; // once exceptions are implemented")
04:38:54 <Pikhq> Mmkay; got it returning plofStub();
04:40:06 <Pikhq> I've got plofNewPlofThingGeneric(PlofThing *pthng); written. . .
04:46:13 <Pikhq> And I think I've got plofNewPlofThingArray(PlofArray *a); written.
04:49:14 * Pikhq will assume, at least for a moment, that you appreciate having someone else do something on Plof. :p
04:51:12 <Pikhq> I've probably done the array constructor in a bit of an annoying fashion, but that's largely a side effect of having to copy each member of the PlofArray by hand. . .
04:53:30 <GregorR> Arrays are reference types.
04:53:44 <GregorR> N/M, I see what you're talking about.
04:54:15 <Pikhq> I'm (as you may gather) talking about the underlying struct. ;)
04:55:03 <Pikhq> On your box, ~pikhq/plof.c contains my changes.
04:55:48 <GregorR> darcs record , then darcs send
04:56:13 <GregorR> [It's easier on all parties that way]
04:56:50 <GregorR> Oh, and make sure you're up to date with a darcs pull.
04:58:08 <Pikhq> Target email address?!?
04:58:38 * Pikhq obviously doesn't use darcs on a regular basis
04:58:57 <GregorR> `darcs send` sends differences via email.
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07:54:03 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: i suspect that ~bf doesn't run in a separate thread, and so sometimes hangs bsmnt_bot.
07:56:07 <oerjan> ~exec sys.stdout(keys(self))
07:56:08 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'keys' is not defined
07:56:22 <oerjan> now that was a wild guess. and wrong.
07:58:23 <oerjan> the registered command for ~bf
07:58:53 <bsmnt_bot> ('^:bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S* PRIVMSG \\S* :~quit ?(.*)', 'do_quit'),
07:58:53 <bsmnt_bot> ('^:bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S* PRIVMSG \\S* :~raw (.*)', 'do_raw'),
07:58:53 <bsmnt_bot> ('^\\S+ PRIVMSG \\S+ :~ctcp (\\S+) (.+)', 'do_ctcp'),
07:58:54 <bsmnt_bot> ('^:bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S* PRIVMSG (\\S*) :~pexec (.*)', 'do_exec'),
07:58:55 <bsmnt_bot> ('\\S+ PRIVMSG (#esoteric|#baadf00d|#bsmnt_bot_errors) :~exec (.*)',
07:58:57 <bsmnt_bot> ('\\S+ PRIVMSG \\S+ :~ps', 'do_ps'),
07:58:59 <bsmnt_bot> ('^:bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S* PRIVMSG \\S* :~kill (.*)', 'do_kill'),
07:59:01 <bsmnt_bot> ('^ERROR :Closing Link:.*', '<lambda>')]
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08:00:01 <oerjan> too much work to remember all the right functions.
08:02:29 <oerjan> ~exec sys.stdout(dir(self))
08:02:29 <bsmnt_bot> ['COMMAND_CHAR', 'THREADING', '__doc__', '__init__', '__module__', 'chan', 'commands_running', 'commands_running_lock', 'connect', 'connected', 'disconnect', 'do_callbacks', 'do_ctcp', 'do_exec', 'do_kill', 'do_ps', 'do_quit', 'do_raw', 'error_in_chan', 'errorchan', 'exec_execer', 'get_message', 'host', 'ident', 'listen', 'load_callbacks', 'locals', 'message_re', 'nick', '
08:02:29 <bsmnt_bot> owner', 'pong', 'port', 'print_callbacks', 'raw', 'raw_regex_queue', 'realname', 'register_raw', 'save_callbacks', 'socket', 'sockfile', 'verbose']
08:03:21 <oerjan> ~exec sys.stdout(raw_regex_queue[-1])
08:03:21 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'raw_regex_queue' is not defined
08:03:29 <oerjan> ~exec sys.stdout(self.raw_regex_queue[-1])
08:03:29 <bsmnt_bot> (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80df618>, <function bfarg at 0xb7bee764>)
08:04:00 <oerjan> ~exec sys.stdout(self.raw_regex_queue[-1][0])
08:04:01 <bsmnt_bot> <_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80df618>
08:04:13 <oerjan> ~exec sys.stdout(dir(self.raw_regex_queue[-1][0]))
08:04:14 <bsmnt_bot> ['__copy__', '__deepcopy__', 'findall', 'finditer', 'match', 'scanner', 'search', 'split', 'sub', 'subn']
08:05:39 <oerjan> ~exec sys.stdout(repr(self.raw_regex_queue[-1][0]))
08:05:39 <bsmnt_bot> <_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80df618>
08:05:49 <oerjan> ~exec sys.stdout(str(self.raw_regex_queue[-1][0]))
08:05:50 <bsmnt_bot> <_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80df618>
08:09:49 <oerjan> ~exec sys.stdout(self.raw_regex_queue[-1][0].pattern)
08:09:50 <bsmnt_bot> \S+ PRIVMSG (\S+) :~bf ([^!]*)!?(.*)
08:10:17 <oerjan> ~exec sys.stdout(self.raw_regex_queue[-1][1].code)
08:10:18 <bsmnt_bot> AttributeError: 'function' object has no attribute 'code'
08:10:24 <oerjan> ~exec sys.stdout(self.raw_regex_queue[-1][1].__code__)
08:10:24 <bsmnt_bot> AttributeError: 'function' object has no attribute '__code__'
08:50:45 <bsmntbombdood> I'll put it in a new thread later, now i'm going to bed
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19:04:03 <Pikhq> Hmmm. . . You think 12 hours of sleep is enough?
19:04:28 <ihope> Yup; I felt well-rested upon waking up.
19:04:35 <ihope> Or were you talking about yourself?
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20:16:38 <bsmnt_bot> SyntaxError: EOL while scanning single-quoted string
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20:22:18 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'bfarg' is not defined
20:22:49 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'bfarg' is not defined
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20:25:06 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'bfarg' is not defined
20:25:41 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'bfarg' is not defined
20:25:44 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'bot' is not defined
20:26:33 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'bfarg' is not defined
20:26:35 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'bot' is not defined
20:26:47 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'self' is not defined
20:27:20 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'bfarg' is not defined
20:27:22 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'bot' is not defined
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21:00:44 <bsmntbombdood> It's funny how old elected people who don't know how to manage money throw laptops at kids and expect them to suddenly get better grades
21:05:43 <bsmntbombdood> my school spent SOO MUCH money on useless technology in the new school
21:09:45 <bsmntbombdood> However, the whole intercom system is controlled from the network/external phones
21:11:44 <bsmntbombdood> oh, yeah--the projectors (one in every class) are centrally controlled too!
21:13:45 <bsmntbombdood> I hope I will be able to take advantage of these exciting oportunities
21:16:33 * Pikhq continues prodding GregorR
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21:36:54 * SimonRC finds a song about e-commerce. http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/marketland
21:37:29 <SimonRC> but WTF is the line # Fifteen years ago, wow. # about?
21:46:04 <SimonRC> /dev/kx44/vg0-home 115Z 22Z 93Z 19% /home2-3-ff
21:47:37 <SimonRC> I am not on a normal system
21:48:54 <bsmntbombdood> your organization actually has 115*2^70 bytes of storage?
21:50:49 <Pikhq> bsmntbombdood: That looks like you're using more storage than is available.
21:50:57 <Pikhq> 36G used, 34G total. :p
21:53:09 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: I recommend you compare the number of bytes of storage to avagadro's number
21:54:12 <SimonRC> Google says: "Avogadro's number = 6.0221415 * 10 ^ 23"
21:55:31 <bsmntbombdood> so, the same order of magnitude as avagadro's number
21:55:52 <SimonRC> you know *what* avagadro's number is, right?
21:58:54 <SimonRC> well, storage devices are typically made of atoms...
22:00:06 <SimonRC> My point is it's a fucking lot of capacity, and there are serious problems finding the sapce to store it.
22:00:42 <oerjan> the significance is presumably that SimonRC either has access to some super-secret nanotechnology or is joking...
22:00:42 <SimonRC> if you take up more than a few thousand atoms per bits the storage is just enormous.
22:01:47 <bsmntbombdood> only 440 grams if it's of iron and each bit is one atom
22:03:23 <SimonRC> actually, your're right there; I was confusing g and kg
22:04:34 <SimonRC> also, the "KigDos" you see me mentioning occasionally is part of the running joke.
22:05:34 <SimonRC> ... that I have access to some Kigdatsi technology.
22:05:38 <oerjan> hm... an ordinary person, even an alien, would never need that much storage.
22:06:25 <SimonRC> oerjan: I'll quote that back at you in about 50 years
22:07:04 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: *fwap* "ought"
22:07:41 <oerjan> well, ok, if you insist on storing every sensation that goes through your brain... maybe.
22:09:23 <SimonRC> Also, CERN's new detector will produce several TB of data per second.
22:09:45 <oerjan> i said an ordinary person. i was not counting scientific research.
22:09:46 <SimonRC> IIRC that's after throwing 99.9% of it away.
22:10:27 <SimonRC> the boundries slip rather fast.
22:11:28 <bsmntbombdood> maybe we will come up with some kind of sub-atomic storage system
22:12:22 <SimonRC> I was thinking of that amount of storeage being distributed actually.
22:12:58 <oerjan> storing on the surface of a black hole might theoretically be the densest possible...
22:14:43 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle
22:16:50 <oerjan> i am having some second thoughts... solving NP-complete problems might be common, and could require arbitrary resources.
22:32:23 * Pikhq wonders if maybe he should play with ext4. . .
22:36:47 <Pikhq> Meh; I'll wait for e2fstools to catch up first.
22:36:49 <oerjan> anything requiring a massive mathematical search algorithm
22:37:13 <SimonRC> I know what NP-complete is...
22:37:59 <SimonRC> but by definition they can be solved in exponential time (and hence also exponential space)
22:38:29 <oerjan> by arbitrary i meant "as much as you can possibly get hold of"
22:39:26 <oerjan> practically, not mathematically unbounded
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23:00:01 <ihope> When the complexity of the problem doubles, so does the amount of money it costs to solve it?
23:01:29 <ihope> When the complexity of the problem is squared, so is the amount of money it costs to solve it?
23:29:14 <Pikhq> GregorR: I'm going to take a guess that you're not going to look at my patch at all. XD
23:41:04 <GregorR> I am ... just not right now X-P
23:41:12 <GregorR> I have a lot of other things to do.
23:47:31 <Pikhq> It's a Saturday. How much can you have to do? :p
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01:44:52 <Pikhq> I know one way to script your homework. . .
01:45:03 <Pikhq> Mechanical Turk: Homework Edition. :p
01:56:00 <bsmntbombdood> the internet has animated gifs of dogs humping stuffed animals
01:56:07 <SimonRC> ok, having listened to the tetris theme tune for about 3 hours strait, I will now go to bed
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03:37:24 * Pikhq is going to force GregorR to read that patch one of these days. . .
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17:10:03 <Pikhq> GregorR: Gotten any free time lately?
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20:35:10 <GregorR> ~pikhq/pikhq_patch2.bundle doesn't exist.
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22:28:58 <bsmntbombdood> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Arpnet-map-march-1977.png
22:29:04 <bsmntbombdood> imagine being able to map out the _whole_ internet and _every_ host on it
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23:04:05 <SimonRC> I still have not seen a satisfactory map of the web though
23:04:22 <SimonRC> XKCD's one is a start, but not really what I mean
23:06:08 <SimonRC> I mean, a map that matches the way websites relate in my head
23:07:45 <Pikhq> SimonRC: A spatial map of the web?
23:08:03 <Pikhq> Would you like that in low-res (60TB) or high-res (60PB)?
23:08:05 <SimonRC> maybe something that determines community by common membership?
23:08:29 <Pikhq> Low-res (6PB) or high-res (600PB)? :p
23:08:59 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: that only works for web2.0 stuff, and it's even harder to get membership data rather than just linkage
23:14:06 <SimonRC> Oh I never said it was practical, just that it hadn;t been done yet.
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23:52:49 <lament> that map from 1977 is very nicely multi-connected
23:53:04 <lament> i suspect modern internet is in much worse shape
00:00:21 <bsmntbombdood> you can lay it out by hand when you only have a few hundred hosts
00:09:30 <Pikhq> The modern Internet could be produced more nicely via /dev/urandom.
00:16:35 <oerjan> apparently the internet's structure has a property known as scale-invariance, which is not the case for simple versions of randomness.
00:17:30 <Pikhq> And apparently my Internet connection hates me.
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00:56:11 <ihope> Anybody know where CakeProphet went?
01:10:12 <oerjan> last seen may 4, when he said nothing
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19:50:02 <oerjan> Today's entropy forecast: Low but rising.
19:50:34 <the_entropy> i'm more interested in tommrow's, today's is almost over
19:51:27 <oerjan> Long-term entropy forecast: Low but rising for the next few billion years.
20:26:03 <oerjan> i knew you were going to say that.
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21:11:21 <SimonRC> Story: Someone posts some information in an obscure place where maybe 100 people will see it. A second person takes unreasonable objection to the information being available and tries to take some legal action them. The first person puts up a notice saying that this has happened. The second person tries to sue them for saying so...
21:12:16 <SimonRC> The story hits the fron pages of digg and slashdot, so 100 MILLION people see this information. Songs are recorded, domain names purchased, and t-shirts printed.
21:12:54 <SimonRC> You Have Lost at the intarnet. Please insert 50p to continue.
21:19:56 <oerjan> It would have been more satisfying if the information revealed had been a complete crack rather than, as I understand, a nearly throwaway code. Or maybe that just makes it even more pathetic.
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21:25:27 <Pikhq> oerjan: The complete crack should be out by August. :p
21:26:06 <Pikhq> (currently, they've got an undefeatable way to *copy* disks; the complete decryption crack is forthcoming)
21:26:37 <ihope> Undefeatable way to *copy* them?
21:26:47 <ihope> Isn't that... already possible?
21:27:03 <ihope> Assuming the media isn't weird, that is.
21:28:12 <oerjan> the media is always weird. any article on a subject you actually are an expert in always contains errors.
21:29:39 <Pikhq> ihope: The HD-DVD format has certain 'unreadable' bits required for decryption. . . Usually, getting at them requires a cryptographic handshake with the drive.
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21:30:06 <Pikhq> One of the cracks out there is a patched firmware for the Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive, allowing one to obtain those unreadable bits. ..
21:30:12 <Pikhq> bsmntbombdood: That's been done.
21:30:26 <oerjan> personally my pet peeve is how i see journalists put a token statistical number into an article, but it is a number which gives no information in isolation.
21:33:01 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/07/lousy_test_question_.html
21:39:24 <Pikhq> Are you allowed to check multiple answers?
21:41:29 <ihope> No. If you do that, you get a zero on the whole test automatically.
21:42:48 <Pikhq> Then I'll just leave that one blank.
21:48:57 <ihope> If you do *that*, you get a zero on the whole test automatically.
21:49:05 <ihope> And if you get it wrong.
21:49:18 <ihope> But if you get it right, you automatically get 100% on the test.
21:59:10 <ihope> (The test consists only of that one question, right?)
22:00:20 <oerjan> i am afraid i am going to have to flunk ihope on reading comprehension.
22:00:25 <lament> well, realistically, it's B
22:00:39 <ihope> Is that another -ally word?
22:00:54 <lament> you COULD make a case for each of the answers
22:01:01 <lament> but that is true of very many multiple-choice questions
22:01:09 <lament> but B is the most correct option
22:01:33 <lament> that is, in practice it's the one that gets used.
22:01:52 <lament> liquids are almost always measured by volume.
22:02:16 <lament> for one, it's much easier to find their volume than their weight
22:02:31 <lament> since the applesauce is probably already in a jar.
22:03:01 <oerjan> if the question had been in the cooking section rather than math it would not have been controversial at all.
22:04:19 <ihope> There's a cooking section?
22:14:45 <Pikhq> Sure, it would've.
22:14:59 <Pikhq> "Where's the hogheads option?"
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22:31:29 * SimonRC ponders http://www.thegreenwolf.com/afgto.html
22:43:33 <ihope> Nice when it comes to fantasy indeed.
22:46:43 <SimonRC> the book documents some peoples' actual beliefs
22:47:02 <SimonRC> I almost certainly hang out with some of these people online.
22:56:44 <ihope> Well, yes, there are those with those actual beliefs?
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23:39:40 <lament> bsmntbombdood: not in any household uses
23:41:09 <lament> and does not say the volume of the can?
23:44:28 <lament> perhaps belgium is just a weird country.
23:46:24 <lament> well, whichever country you're in :)
23:47:19 <lament> can't expect the US to do anything sanely
23:47:59 <lament> bsmntbombdood: where people actually use metric (as opposed to putting numbers on cans because there's a law that says you have to), they measure liquids by volume
23:48:22 <lament> i have lived in four different countries that all use metric, and it's the same everywhere.
23:49:34 <lament> canada is one of the four :)
23:51:57 <lament> fortunately, the conversion is easy enough :)
00:04:24 <lament> that's okay, most people do :)
00:20:37 <SimonRC> # In the year 2009 // We turned water into wine // Then to diet Dr. Pepper on the rocks #
00:20:44 <SimonRC> http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/357726
00:35:46 <Sgeo> What did Goldilocks say upon seeing "Maybe (b -> Either a b)"? (ihope, no answering)
00:39:17 <Sgeo> It's Just Right!
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00:44:47 <lament> haven't read goldilocks :(
00:52:52 <ihope> !daemon cat bf +[,.[-]+]
00:53:11 <ihope> !daemon ! cat Yup, !! does something now.
00:53:15 <EgoBot> Yup, !! does something now.
00:53:25 <ihope> Um, lemme try that again.
00:54:07 <ihope> Darn it, eh! Uh...
00:56:29 <ihope> ----------[++++++++++>,----------]++++++++++[<]
00:58:31 <Pikhq> ihope: That'd make more sense with an initial comma.
00:59:09 <ihope> A little more, yes.
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01:35:04 <SimonRC> If you ever thought that you were supposed to listen to the words in rock opera, try watching "Wishmaster - the misheard lyrics" on youtube.
01:35:38 <SimonRC> It is very hard to tell that they are not the correct lyrics, except the they are completely ridiculous.
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02:02:38 <Pikhq> LaTeX wins because Emacs wins.
02:03:28 <ihope> If Emacs wins, does that mean vi loses?
02:03:49 <Pikhq> No, only nonfree vi versions.
02:04:02 <Pikhq> Free vi versions win at their original purpose: penance.
02:04:26 * Pikhq raises a five high for no good reason
02:05:22 <bsmntbombdood> \newcommand{\person}[1]{\newpage \begin{center} #1 \end{center}\vfill}
02:06:47 <SimonRC> These have to be the best rube-golberg devices I have every seen
02:06:57 <SimonRC> better than the usual ones one sees: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5nmspVOz_Y#
02:07:22 <Pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Isn't Turing complete document writing just wonderful?
02:07:56 * SimonRC wonders what "pitakona siriti" means
02:12:51 <Pikhq> That's great and all, but Japanese doesn't have the following phonemes: ta, si, ti.
02:13:53 <Pikhq> (it's got those in kana, but they're pronounced and transcribed (usually) as "shi" and "chi")
02:15:04 <bsmntbombdood> latex also wins because you can manipulate your document with sed
02:16:56 <Pikhq> You *can* do that with ODF. . .
02:17:29 <Pikhq> unzip odf&&sed command here odf/main.xml&&zip odf.zip odf
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02:22:33 <SimonRC> ah, it's "pitagora suicchi" == "Pythagoras Switch".
02:23:06 <SimonRC> Pythagoras Switch are a well-know japanese group whose videos are all over the 'net
02:23:18 <SimonRC> they were the ones who did the Algorithm Dance
02:30:06 <Pikhq> Well, that's quite different from "pitakona siriti". . .
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22:03:50 <lament> que idioma estan hablando?
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22:05:43 <ihope> Me doy cuento que nadie ha usado el inglés. (Or something like that, anyway.)
22:06:23 <lament> ingles es muy complicado
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22:57:03 <SimonRC> # It's at time like this I wish I had // Telekinesis. #
23:15:54 <SimonRC> "If they try it on me, they'll go blind" -- Wally from _Dilbert_.
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10:05:39 <SimonRC> "Dear admin. If you break this system before my summative demonstration tomorrow I may be forced to kill you. Love SimonRC"
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18:16:49 <oerjan> Deutsch ist solch eine huebsche Sprache.
18:17:02 <lament> what does huebsche mean?
18:17:29 <lament> it sounds really dirty and funny in russian
18:18:08 <oerjan> and btw, i meant that sentence to be a self-contradictory self-reference.
18:45:56 <lament> i wonder how many people have memorized the 09 f9 key by now
18:46:07 <lament> i assume quite a few know the first four digits
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21:29:59 <SimonRC> Is there anything like the Internet WRT that affair?
21:30:27 <SimonRC> I can't think other time that taking firm action against a problem makes it 100,000 times worse.
21:31:26 * oerjan is thinking of Zimbabwe.
21:34:21 <oerjan> surely there must be lots of revolutions that started in such a way, or?
21:36:32 <oerjan> Czechnya must be an example of this.
21:36:43 <oerjan> oh, and who could forget Iraq?
21:40:11 <oerjan> heck, it's almost the definition of war.
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14:21:54 <SimonRC> XHTML web-pages + navigating links using TAB == pain
14:21:57 <SimonRC> Specifically a game of "try to spot where on the page the selection went this time"
14:22:00 <SimonRC> ooh, it went left, right, and left again
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15:11:41 <SimonRC> Question: May vegans breast-feed their children?
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20:56:27 <SimonRC> WIBBLE! http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=%22%23define+private+public%22&btnG=Search
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23:12:30 * oerjan smiles at the monster he has created.
23:14:55 <oerjan> Another implementation of Deadfish.
23:17:09 <fax> in what language?
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00:29:21 <ihope> You haven't said anything about the OS project lately.
00:36:50 <oerjan> by my best estimate he has said only a single "HI" for a week.
00:39:46 <oerjan> make that 11 days. this from your friendly Big Brother.
00:40:02 <ihope> Should I bug him via MemoServ, the Google Groups group, Wikipedia and Esolang?
00:41:06 <oerjan> _and_ take out an ad on national TV.
00:41:43 <oerjan> mind you that "HI" was just 2 hours ago.
00:42:05 <oerjan> and i may possibly have missed him under one of his other nicks.
00:42:55 <ihope> Hmm, not the worst of ideas.
00:43:07 <ihope> Except that he's cloaked.
00:43:08 <fax> I bring music
00:44:00 <oerjan> that would be a little imprecise without his real name, i figure.
00:44:40 <ihope> Maybe his name is Adam.
00:45:17 <ihope> So we just need to grab all the people in Jasper named Adam and see if one is the Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake and the Seven Inch Bread.
00:45:18 <oerjan> still a little too imprecise.
00:50:04 <ihope> Hmm, not Goldstone.
00:50:23 <ihope> I sort of doubt it's Adam Ant.
00:51:05 <ihope> Jasper, Georgia people named Adam who have a birthday on July 26?
00:53:41 <ihope> The population of Jasper, Georgia is about 3000, so there are about eight people there born on July 26.
00:54:46 <oerjan> wow, it sounds like you could actually make it
00:54:56 <ihope> And the name Adam is probably rare enough that we can pin it down.
00:55:26 <ihope> Now all we need is a list of Jasper, Georgia citizens by first name and date of birth.
00:55:46 <ihope> I'm thinking giant phonebook.
00:56:45 <ihope> Is there a giant phonebook in Georgia?
00:56:45 <GregorR> I think I've crashed libgc :(
00:57:26 <ihope> Darn, these three phonebooks all require a last name.
00:57:43 <ihope> Maybe I'll try finding the phone number of "Greg Richards" instead.
00:58:39 <ihope> Hmm. I *think* this page is loading...
01:00:16 <oerjan> "Current Residence: hahahahaha"
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03:08:34 <CakeProphet> ...you'd actually... probably find me at that point.
03:08:42 <CakeProphet> as my name is Adam.... and I live in Jasper.
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17:34:38 <SimonRC> wtf just happenned to mz kezboard_
17:34:58 <SimonRC> qwertzuiop asdfghjkl yxcvbnm
17:35:24 <SimonRC> there... deleted every language except english
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19:19:23 <Pikhq> I feel like either implementing PESOIX or doing absolutely nothing. . .
19:19:29 <Pikhq> And I think doing nothing would be easier.
19:19:50 <CakeProphet> ......games are pretty kickass to make.... besides being a crapload of work.
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21:13:43 <CakeProphet> apparently the *'s are throwing the compiler off.
21:14:57 <GregorR> if((num_updates % (1 MINUTE)) == 0 // wtf?
21:17:50 <GregorR> What's CHAR_DATA #define'd to?
21:20:57 <CakeProphet> ...I don't know....... C SYNTAX DOESN'T TELL YOU WHERE SHIT IS DEFINED.
21:21:09 <oerjan> well what are the #include lines?
21:22:11 <fizzie> You can also run it through something like 'gcc -E' and look at the preprocessed output.
21:23:36 <oerjan> i would guess those _DATA's are all defined in some #included .h file.
21:24:07 <oerjan> so "grep -f _DATA *.h"
21:24:33 <oerjan> i would think MINUTE is unlikely to be the culprit.
21:25:21 <oerjan> whoops, that should be -F not -f
21:29:17 <oerjan> i included it because i couldn't remember if _ was a regexp character
21:29:53 <oerjan> use -E for advanced regexes
21:30:21 <fizzie> Or just use \(, \| and so on, if you have gnu grep.
21:30:26 <oerjan> (this from grep --help)
21:30:46 <oerjan> this is gnu grep i'm looking at
21:30:57 <fizzie> "In GNU grep, there is no difference in available functions in either of the first two syntaxes [-E and without]."
21:31:12 <fizzie> It's just that without -E you need the \s to keep the magic.
21:31:14 * CakeProphet is trying to weed out CHAR_DATA's definition out from all the countless function signatures.
21:31:53 <oerjan> do grep '[#]define *CHAR_DATA'
21:32:50 <fizzie> It might also be a typedef. (But causing that parse error with a typedef would be rather impressive.)
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21:33:30 <CakeProphet> ....here's what I've got that's the most useful.
21:33:30 <oerjan> actually neither # nor _ seem to be special
21:33:36 <CakeProphet> [bread@portent src]$ grep -E "struct.*?CHAR_DATA" *.h
21:36:34 <CakeProphet> ...what the hell is it? I can't figure out where it's at.
21:37:39 <oerjan> but it looks like a perfectly ok standalone declaration.
21:37:55 <oerjan> which should not make it possible to trigger that parse error.
21:38:47 <CakeProphet> ...if it means anything.... I never ran a configure script..... there wasn't one.
21:38:51 <fizzie> Yes, and if that file's not included, it should be a 'CHAR_DATA was not defined' error.
21:40:21 <oerjan> are you compiling with all warnings?
21:40:30 <oerjan> but it cannot be missing
21:40:41 <CakeProphet> -shrug- I don't know... I just ran the makefile
21:41:06 <CakeProphet> ....I thought it might have something to do with the * being there.
21:42:15 <Pikhq> CakeProphet: Try getting it to compile with -Wall added to the CC args.
21:46:12 <fizzie> With a struct char_data { ... }; like that, and a typedef struct char_data CHAR_DATA; I don't see any reason for a parse terror.
21:47:17 <CakeProphet> well... the parse error comes before the *..... if that means anything.
21:49:17 <CakeProphet> I don't necessarily care why it does it... I just want it not to do it.
21:49:35 <fizzie> Well, you could try sticking just "struct char_data *ch" there.
21:49:46 <fizzie> Instead of "CHAR_DATA *ch".
21:50:15 <fizzie> Since it's C++, even plain "char_data *ch" might work.
21:51:22 <fizzie> I wonder where I got the C++ impression from.
21:51:30 <oerjan> so did i except for the // comments
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21:51:32 <CakeProphet> from http://homepages.uc.edu/~hollisgf/nakedmud.html : "NakedMud is written in C, and uses Python for scripting."
21:51:45 <fizzie> Ah, right, must've been the // comments.
21:52:08 <fizzie> Anyway, 'struct char_data' should work.
22:01:08 <CakeProphet> gameloop.c:350: parse error before `struct'
22:01:09 <CakeProphet> gameloop.c:351: `ch' undeclared (first use in this function)
22:01:11 <CakeProphet> gameloop.c:351: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
22:01:12 <CakeProphet> gameloop.c:351: for each function it appears in.)
22:01:14 <CakeProphet> gameloop.c:353: parse error before `struct'
22:01:15 <CakeProphet> gameloop.c:354: `obj' undeclared (first use in this function)
22:01:17 <CakeProphet> gameloop.c:356: parse error before `struct'
22:01:18 <CakeProphet> gameloop.c:357: `room' undeclared (first use in this function)
22:01:21 <CakeProphet> ....nope.... I don't think it had anything to do with CHAR_DATA
22:01:45 <oerjan> maybe you should take a look at that MINUTE anyhow.
22:02:44 <fizzie> This is sort of grasping for straws, but you wouldn't happen to have any non-printing non-visible evil characters there somewhere?
22:04:35 <CakeProphet> mud.h:#define MINUTE * 60 SECONDS /* one minute */
22:05:21 <fizzie> That's just sick and SICK.
22:05:43 <fizzie> 1+1 MINUTES => 1 + 1*60 SECONDS.
22:06:14 <GregorR> fizzie: Well, that just means that 'MINUTES' has a lower precedence than + *shrugs*
22:06:17 <CakeProphet> mud.h:#define PULSES_PER_SECOND mudsettingGetInt("pulses_per_second")
22:06:19 <CakeProphet> mud.h:#define SECOND * PULSES_PER_SECOND /* used for figuring out how many pulses in a second*/
22:06:20 <CakeProphet> mud.h:#define SECONDS SECOND /* same as above */
22:06:22 <CakeProphet> mud.h:#define MINUTE * 60 SECONDS /* one minute */
22:06:30 <Pikhq> #define MINUTE(x) x * SECONDS(60)
22:06:40 <Pikhq> Holy. . . Must. Kill.
22:07:31 <CakeProphet> 1 * 60 * mudsettingGetInt("pulses_per_second")
22:08:34 <GregorR> The MUD I nearly wrote was event-queue based :)
22:08:58 <Pikhq> Bah. Make it IRC-based. :p
22:09:42 <fizzie> Just checking: is line 350 in the file line 34 in the paste?
22:10:18 <CakeProphet> mine just makes a thread for each conncetion, and slaps input on a queue. it's like hardware nterrupts versus hardware polling.
22:11:32 <oerjan> lessee, gameloop.c is the first file compiled.
22:11:42 <oerjan> or at least mentioned in the makefile.
22:14:07 <fizzie> Is that nakedmudv3.3? gameloop.c compiles just fine for me.
22:15:05 <oerjan> aha, the plot thickens.
22:15:59 <oerjan> with plain make? is everyone using gcc >= 3.02 which the web site says is the only tested compiler?
22:16:55 <fizzie> Well, I had to add -I/usr/include/python2.4 to find Python.h, but other than that it compiled just fine with plain make.
22:17:08 <fizzie> With gcc (GCC) 4.1.2 20061115 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.1-21).
22:20:35 <oerjan> requires >= 3.02, it says.
22:22:51 * oerjan boggles his mind on the fact that CakeProphet's does _not_ run the latest version by default
22:23:22 <CakeProphet> not mine... it's on a MUD host......... full of -really- old server programs.
22:24:03 <oerjan> like when _I_ was playing MUDs :)
22:24:29 <CakeProphet> well... I don't like hack and slash ones... feels too much like excercising.
22:29:15 <oerjan> abbreviation for .tar.gzip
22:29:47 <fizzie> I use zxvf, but everyone else seems to use xzvf. Must be something wrong with me. :/
22:30:19 <oerjan> no it is just your sense of ordering.
22:51:34 <CakeProphet> [bread@portent src]$ gcc -V 23.5 --version
22:51:44 <CakeProphet> ....unless gcc actually -does- have a version 23.5
22:51:58 <fizzie> That's nice behaviour to have.
22:58:38 <CakeProphet> ...my guess is that -V sets a version variable... and --version reads the version variable.
22:59:24 <fizzie> For my 'gcc' -V is the version to run, if multiple versions are installed.
22:59:50 <fizzie> I wouldn't expect it to lie.
23:00:12 <CakeProphet> but considering how must scripts work... it's not surprising.
23:01:10 <CakeProphet> hmmm..... I -could- find a way to compile the source for the target machine.... using my computer.
23:01:48 <Pikhq> Yeah. Cross-compilation.
23:01:59 <Pikhq> Figure out what architecture their system uses.
23:02:31 <oerjan> that's where you have to keep your fingers crossed? :)
23:02:41 <fizzie> If it's ancient enough to have gcc less-than-three, it might also have pretty ancient libraries.
23:02:55 <fizzie> a.out executables and non-glibc C library, that sort of thing.
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23:23:18 <Pikhq> fizzie: Cross-compiler which outputs a.out, static linking, voila.
23:25:12 <fizzie> Static linking doesn't much help if it runs a kernel so ancient that the syscalls are all different from what your fancy new library expects. (Not that you couldn't use old libs with the compiler.)
23:25:41 <Pikhq> Cross-compilation *would* let you compile for linux-ancient.
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02:46:39 <Sgeo> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=880385262900785074
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05:15:03 <Pikhq> What's with people and join/quitting instead of talking?
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05:22:39 <bsmnt_bot> from the midnight sun where the hot springs glow?
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17:08:22 <oerjan> <Pikhq> What's with people and join/quitting instead of talking?
17:08:37 <oerjan> There is of course only one proper solution.
17:09:11 <oerjan> Create a programming language based on join/quit messages.
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19:48:44 <ihope_> The Abrasax kernel project seems to have died temporarily.
19:49:13 <ihope_> I'll need to seek out an x86 person...
19:49:27 <ihope_> ...just as we always have...
19:55:09 <Pikhq> Cling to calamari?
19:56:12 <ihope_> Is calamari an x86 person?
19:57:00 <Pikhq> He wrote a (basic) OS; I'd say so. ;)
19:58:43 <Pikhq> If he decides to show up again, of course.
19:58:52 <Pikhq> oerjan *might* have some of that knowledge, as well.
19:59:05 <ihope_> I notice that neither is currently here.
19:59:28 <ihope_> Unless ville_ is oerjan or something.
20:09:31 <ihope_> And I take it you're not oerjan.
20:23:59 <SimonRC> "In Marketland // The world is in you hand. // I'd go wash it off now. #
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04:07:45 <Pikhq> I seem to have discovered that GCC's optimization can break pointer arithmetic.
04:08:15 <Pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/test.2.c See anything wrong with that?
04:08:31 <Pikhq> Because gcc doesn't unless you add -O.
04:08:41 <Pikhq> Soon as you do, it segfaults.
04:13:12 <Pikhq> The hell is wrong with that assignment?
04:14:51 <Pikhq> I'd think *b=*a; is a fairly innocent assignment.
04:15:55 <bsmntbombdood> the local of the same name as the global clouds the issue
04:16:58 * Pikhq will have to add that to his "map" function (which *attempts* to make valid BFM variables fit within the context of C correctly (*this*is*a*variable is valid in BFM)).
04:20:46 <Pikhq> That's an issue in *my* compiler. ;)
04:23:20 <Pikhq> Yeah. . . That's an issue in my output.
04:25:10 <bsmntbombdood> I suppose you can't have a global var and a local var and access the global var in the scope of the local var even before it's declared
04:31:49 <Pikhq> My issue was in name mangling, that's all.
04:32:06 <Pikhq> Fine, so now names look even more mangled if you try to look at the C source. . . One will just have to live.
04:33:17 <bsmntbombdood> If you have non-legal C chars in names, I would use some sort of symbol based thing
04:34:13 <Pikhq> I've just got a large amount of substitutions.
04:37:39 <Pikhq> Okay, that's not *quite* what I'm doing, but pretty close.
04:37:57 <Pikhq> What mine looks like is more s/_/__/g;s/\*/_/g
04:38:15 <Pikhq> Confusing? Yeah. Does it work? Well. . . Yeah.
04:40:21 * Pikhq also has name mangling for Brainfuck variables (in case someone decides to use -g on BFM)
04:45:56 <Pikhq> Just as soon as I care enough to, I'll be writing some language-specific stdlib macros. . .
04:46:11 <Pikhq> Should, at the very least, make the interpreter run a hell of a lot faster.
04:47:23 * Pikhq should also update the documentation a bit before releasing
04:53:54 <Pikhq> I don't do Python.
04:59:04 <bsmntbombdood> puts n "a"s where n is the ascii value of the character, deliminated by "b"
04:59:39 <Pikhq> And mangle "a" and "b" appropriately? :p
05:00:14 <Pikhq> While it'd *work*, I must ask. . . WHY?!?
05:00:42 <Pikhq> Just because BFM is an esolang doesn't mean the *compiler* must be esoteric.
05:00:51 <bsmntbombdood> "a" gets mangled to "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaab"
05:00:53 <Pikhq> Isn't it enough that you get code like:
05:01:41 <Pikhq> if(*a)putchar(*b);
05:02:18 <bsmntbombdood> From now on you will be called aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
05:02:25 <bsmntbombdood> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaab
05:04:19 <bsmntbombdood> the inverse happens to be lambda x: "".join([chr(len(i)) for i in x.split("b") if i])
07:35:17 <fizzie> That's not guaranteed to work anyway: only "-- at least -- 63 significant initial characters in an internal identifier or a macro name --" are guaranteed.
07:42:02 <fizzie> But in the interests of equal time -- here are the same (anonymous) functions in Perl: (everyone always seems to do only Python :( :( )
07:42:05 <fizzie> sub { join("", map { "a"x ord($_)."b" } split //, shift) }
07:42:07 <fizzie> sub { join("", map { length($_)?chr(length($_)):"" } split "b", shift) }
07:45:07 <fizzie> (Not related, but how does doing "s/_/__/g;s/\*/_/g" prevent a conflict of "foo_bar" and "foo**bar"?)
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16:49:00 <ehird`> i honestly think my language may be worse than malbolge
16:49:05 <ehird`> ((len*(index>1?index*index:50))+chr) % 50 <-- this is just insane
16:49:43 <ehird`> oh yes, and the fact that the middle opcode is evaluated first, then the last, then the rest
16:51:36 <ehird`> that's just the interpreter source coe
16:52:03 <Feuermonster> I mean, in which language do you write the source-code?
16:52:33 <ehird`> that code is valid in many languages
16:53:06 <ehird`> (((len * (index > 1 ? index * index : 50)) + chr) % 50
16:53:10 <ehird`> not that hard to decipher
16:54:05 <ehird`> .... ternary operator....
16:54:20 <ehird`> it's (if index > 1 then index * index else 50)
16:58:52 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/61475
16:58:58 <ehird`> this program should print "a" and a newline
17:42:56 <ehird`> okay, my interpreter is broken
17:43:14 <ehird`> "Invalid decoded opcode 54 at 1 (SyntaxError)", yet my smash-bricks-at-decoder-to-get-program program says its ok
18:19:36 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/61490
18:19:42 <ehird`> even I can't figure out how that works
18:19:53 <ehird`> it's bigger than that in actuality
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21:40:24 <ehird`> "this language should be called eyefuck if it is supposed to actually look like that."
23:43:38 <SimonRC> '(enemy lasanga robust below wax)
23:43:39 <SimonRC> '(semiautomtic aqua accompany slacks)
23:43:43 <SimonRC> http://lemondemon.com/skippy/17.html
23:45:20 <ehird`> you don't have to link to a lyrics page
23:45:35 * ehird` would recognize those anywhere
23:46:08 * SimonRC particularly likes _Geeks In Love_
23:46:56 <SimonRC> It agrees with my not-terribly-serious geeks-as-next-evolution-of-humanity idea
23:47:17 <ehird`> with your powers combined, i am captain ge...ahem
23:47:29 <SimonRC> If they aren;t, then why are asperger's rates rising so sharply.
23:48:02 <SimonRC> For almost all of human history, the most complex thing that ones has had to deal with as a human is other humans.
23:48:16 <SimonRC> That is changing. Humainty will have to change with it.
23:48:38 <SimonRC> etc, until I start advocating euthanasia
23:48:59 <ehird`> To be honest, a lot of people holding the "asperger's" badge do it because they "dont fit in lol" and are self-diagnosed
23:49:41 <ehird`> i'm aware, having being diagnosed myself years ago :)
23:49:57 * SimonRC point out Paul Graham's excellent "Why Nerds Are Unpopular" essay.
23:50:37 <SimonRC> rather mild for me, AFAICT, though I was the weirdest people out of several hundred in primary and secondary school
23:51:24 <SimonRC> ehird`: more constructively, could you recommend other bands to me? I feel I need to actually acuire some music.
23:51:34 <SimonRC> I procrastinate any kind of buy stuff
23:52:01 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: from recall or from very fast reading?
23:52:04 <ehird`> *cough* bittorr COUGH ugh COUGH aaa COUGH COUGH CHOKE
23:52:54 <SimonRC> BTW, I meant "good" in the sense that it makes me feel good. My instincts tell me that the whole school-as-prison thesis might be utter BS, or might not.
23:53:25 <SimonRC> this stems from reading the anti-PG essay "Dabblers and blowhards"./
23:54:10 <ehird`> people would have you believe that prison is school
23:54:25 <SimonRC> in secondary chool, I got on well with most teachers, and learnt loads of stuff
23:55:24 <SimonRC> or the joy of conversing with fellow geeks?
23:55:33 <ehird`> fellow geeks? in a public school?
23:55:42 <ehird`> you must be kidding me
23:55:46 <SimonRC> ehird`: that means something different here...
23:56:20 <SimonRC> I went to a "grammar school" (deprecated), which took the top 40% of students.
23:56:32 <ehird`> i know what a grammar school is, SimonRC ;)
23:56:46 <SimonRC> in .uk, public school = private school = school that you pay for.
23:56:59 <SimonRC> in .uk state school = gov-funded school
23:57:29 * ehird` mixes .uk-isms and .us-isms after a while by mistake
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00:15:16 <ehird`> what's a good way to determine if a language is turing complete or not?
00:15:39 <ehird`> what fun that will be.
00:15:58 <lament> ehird`: there's several popular options for this
00:16:04 <lament> brainfuck, register machine
00:16:21 <ehird`> brainfuck probably the easiest.
00:16:25 <lament> whatever's the closest to your language
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04:14:24 <bsmntbombdood> "The object-oriented model makes it easy to build up programs by accretion. What this often means, in practice, is that it provides a structured way to write spaghetti code." -- Paul Graham
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05:50:59 <SimonRC> (yay! got to the castle in NH!)
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15:51:55 <SimonRC> hmm, there has been no apology or explanation for last night's outage.
15:55:04 <oerjan> actually i may not have noticed because i couldn't reach this account i use for irc because nvg's home directories went down.
15:55:45 <oerjan> although somehow i doubt you are speaking of _that_ outage.
15:56:51 <SimonRC> there was a mungo netsplit which lasted 20 mins and the netowrk came back in bits and pieces
15:58:50 <oerjan> interesting that irc has so many netsplits because it is tree structured without cycles, and somehow they cannot fix that fundamental flaw
15:59:37 <oerjan> when i think about it i read it in the original rfc
16:04:08 <SimonRC> routing in a non-tree is a PITA
16:04:36 <SimonRC> you need to keep a databse of comments that people have said in the last few seconds, and keep comparing
16:04:45 <SimonRC> assuming you want something USENET-like
16:08:13 <oerjan> on the other hand once a netsplit is detected there shouldn't have to be 20 minutes to make a new route.
16:08:52 <oerjan> but of course i don't know how smart irc networks actually are about that.
16:13:19 <SimonRC> Oooh, wise words from Stroustrup: "I particularly dislike classes with a lot of get and set functions. That is often an indication that it shouldn't have been a class in the first place. It's just a data structure. And if it really is a data structure, make it a data structure."
16:17:28 <SimonRC> Oooh, more (from the interviewer): "Anything that's just using the data, but not defending the invariant, doesn't need to be in the class."
16:20:00 <SimonRC> puzzlet_: that regex mtches an awful lot
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16:23:26 <oerjan> will someone else try an emote?
16:25:34 <oerjan> somehow the nick of whoever "worships B.S." did not show up on my screen. I just got colors in irssi after someone removed an old version, but now i seem to have some invisible text.
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16:28:25 <oerjan> yep, the nicks of emotes don't show up at all.
16:29:59 <oerjan> it's white on white. the nick is invisible but does affect the indentation of the following text.
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16:39:28 <oerjan> it's white bold on white, and i have set them equal.
16:48:11 * oerjan boggles at whoever decided "white" in ANSI should not mean white.
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16:50:59 <SimonRC> oerjan: it comes in two varieties: dark whit and light white
16:51:08 <SimonRC> sigh: "The halting problem proves that no algorithm can be proven correct."
16:51:20 * SimonRC fwaps the person who said that
16:52:35 <oerjan> yes, but the dark white is for some reason the default background, unless they go one "better" and make it black.
16:54:31 <oerjan> hmph, from the look on my screen it seems like irssi is assuming my text is white on black, because all the highlighted colors are light.
16:55:08 <oerjan> of course dark white on dark black makes more sense than the other way around.
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17:46:58 <SimonRC> "Scheme programmers *do* know about OO. They have each implemented it at least a dozen times."
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18:21:22 <oklopol> or just randomly googolating for quotes?
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19:05:45 <ehird`> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/oobrain.b oh my go
19:09:32 * sebbu regarde heroes 122
19:11:02 <oerjan> interesting. there is already something non-esoteric by that name.
19:11:46 <oerjan> as well as an actual brainfuck extension.
19:12:31 * ehird` wonders what INTERCAL++ would be called
19:12:47 * ehird` honestly has no idea how to add one to a number and assign the var to it in intercal
19:13:15 <oerjan> that's in the INTERCAL standard library.
19:17:53 <SimonRC> I would be nice as a BFM library I suspect.
19:18:16 <ehird`> it was written in 2003
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19:20:01 <ehird`> mod_bf OOP framework? ;;)
19:21:54 <SimonRC> it's a framework rather than a library for BF programs because it determines the structure of the code you write
19:22:53 <ehird`> you fit libraries to your code, frameworks fit your code to them
19:25:47 <SimonRC> The stack paradigm actually makes BF not-totally-insane, by increasing the locality of things
19:27:00 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/61810
19:27:05 <ehird`> worse than befunge, methinks..
19:27:50 <SimonRC> linear typing might help too
19:28:32 <ehird`> a horridly morphed 2d language
19:29:00 <SimonRC> I will now attempt to decrypt...
19:29:33 <SimonRC> : = dup, ! = halt, ? = go up if false and down if true
19:30:11 <ehird`> : is "get a character of input and push its ascii value to the stack"
19:30:20 <ehird`> but the rest is correct
19:30:26 <SimonRC> digits push themselves, - subtracts
19:30:36 <SimonRC> or do *numbers* puh themselves?
19:30:49 <ehird`> it basically walks forward until it stops finding digits.
19:30:57 <ehird`> - pops two numbers off the stack, subtracts them, and pushes the result
19:31:32 <ehird`> < swaps two items on the stack
19:31:39 <ehird`> [1,2,3] < results in [1,3,2]
19:31:54 <ehird`> why i do that is revealed when you figure out what c does
19:31:58 <SimonRC> and the program area must wrap
19:32:10 <ehird`> it /does/, but that's not used here
19:32:45 <ehird`> a character. c pushes the character below itself as an ascii value
19:32:58 <ehird`> which i suspect could be used in quines if going downwards.
19:33:16 <ehird`> you see, . the printer, since everything on the stack is just a number, can't tell where the string starts
19:33:22 <ehird`> so i just make it stop when it finds ^ ;)
19:33:30 <ehird`> (^, $ - regexp start/end of line)
19:34:06 <oerjan> hm... instead of having a language parse sequences of digits, it could treat a digit as "multiply by ten, then add this".
19:34:41 <ehird`> it's not wtf-inspiring though :)
19:34:50 <SimonRC> does ? throw away the value at the top of the stack?
19:34:55 <ehird`> i'm considering making the implementation of ? replace itself with j or h depending on the condition, then going back one
19:35:07 <ehird`> and it does, but i've realised it shouldn't
19:35:11 <ehird`> as then i can't print the character
19:35:16 <ehird`> thanks, i was trying to fix that bug!
19:35:49 <SimonRC> you need to be consistant, the tradition with stacks is that everything uses up all its input unless there is a very good reason not to.
19:36:11 <ehird`> tradition? this is an esolang, is it not? :)
19:36:40 <SimonRC> you should really follow befunge and make the if operators use up their predicate
19:37:22 * oerjan wonders if SimonRC ever looked at Glass.
19:37:27 <ehird`> awkward languages are the only fun esoteric ones ;)
19:38:22 <SimonRC> I disagree. We all failed to invent linear types, despite them being very esoteric, and *they* are fun and esoteric.
19:39:01 <oerjan> it may not abuse the stack in _that_ particular way, but it is certainly awkward.
19:42:34 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/61817
19:42:39 <ehird`> hmmm/.. it's hanging after two lines
19:42:46 <ehird`> god knows why it even DIES on two lines
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20:00:42 <SimonRC> ehird`: I think you are mixing up your l with your 1
20:01:11 <SimonRC> the third line of the program should be something like: l10+c<.j
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20:04:30 <SimonRC> Do you know much about C++?
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20:06:31 <ehird`> ? moves up or down, it doesn't change the direction of execution
20:07:19 <ehird`> i add 10 because i had subtracted it previously
20:07:22 <ehird`> that's on another copy
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20:14:02 <ehird`> (C++)-- has no seq points, it is undefined.
20:14:16 <ehird`> Possible solution: Seperate the expression into multiple statements.
20:14:41 * ehird` reads too many compiler errors
20:18:34 <ehird`> int C = 0; (C++)--; is undefined, but it probably results in C being 0
20:21:12 <coatgrinder> i reached mental condition when i can understand the i = i++ + ++i
20:23:50 <oerjan> eh, * doesn't have to be applied to an lvalue.
20:24:08 <oerjan> indeed, x++ probably isn't one.
20:26:04 <ehird`> coatgrinder: undefined.
20:26:11 <ehird`> you just understand it as your compiler does.
20:26:32 <ehird`> int i = 15; i = ++i + ++i should be 17 if your compiler is worth its salt
20:26:45 <ehird`> it translates to int i = 15; increment i; increment i; i = i + i
20:26:52 <ehird`> otherwise, it uses a tmp variable and that's slower.
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20:29:37 <coatgrinder> i.e. both ways would make a correct compiler
20:30:49 <ehird`> having it explode would be correct
20:30:54 <ehird`> so would having it cry
20:33:52 <oerjan> http://c-faq.com/expr/evalorder2.html
20:35:55 <ehird`> a language entirely made out of the letter Q
20:36:50 <ehird`> QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
20:40:08 <ehird`> i'm making it basically http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BF_instruction_minimalization but depending on a magical counter :P
20:47:25 <fizzie> How does "int i = 15; increment i; increment i; i = i + i" lead to "i == 17"; isn't i+i 34? And anyway, you really can't deduce anything about compiler smartness out of the result; it could easily be running on an architecture where "increment i; increment i;" without some manual delay in-between would result in i being incremented only once, and be a _smart_ compiler and not use the delay, because there really shouldn't be two modifications to i between se
20:48:02 <fizzie> Nothing too interesting there: -- modifications to i between sequence points.
20:48:14 <ehird`> if the standard says it's unspecified, the compiler writers SHOULDN'T bother messing around with making it work on stupid CPUs
20:48:25 <oerjan> "Undefined means that, notwithstanding question 9.2, printf("%d", j++ <= j); can print 42, or ``forty-two.''"
20:49:17 <fizzie> Yes, that's exactly my point: the compiler writer doesn't need to bother adding the manual delay there, because it's undefined.
20:50:19 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/61834
20:50:21 <fizzie> But you can't deduce from the "unexpected" result that the compiler was stupef.
20:50:22 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: you are trolling
20:50:23 <ehird`> somebody want to prove that's as turing-complete as BF? :)
20:50:41 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/61835
20:50:43 <ehird`> with that change it should be
20:51:39 <ehird`> - can be + 127 times, and > can be ->, and + can be +<
20:52:39 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: In the above code (j++ <= j), it could legally do the evaluation by getting j into onto the stack twice, then comparing, then incrementing j, or by pushing j, incrementing it in memory, then pushing j again. It is therefore undefined what the result is.
20:55:42 <oerjan> a quantum computer might have registers that do not have a physical value if you try to access them in an illegal order.
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21:25:12 <oklopol> <oerjan> hm... instead of having a language parse sequences of digits, it could treat a digit as "multiply by ten, then add this". <<< i think sadol does this, though dunno if it's actually meant to do that
21:27:50 <oerjan> it doesn't look like it to me
21:31:00 <oerjan> in a language with such a feature, the digits would have to be commands, and they would ordinarily be prepended with a command meaning "set the register digits act on to 0"
21:33:03 <oklopol> ,41337 is 1337, but ,41,21337 might well be 1000+1300+30+7...
21:33:23 <oklopol> if that's anything close to what you meant earlier :)
21:38:06 <oerjan> i think it is a stretch. it doesn't fit with sadol's general syntax and semantics.
21:38:41 <oerjan> sadol seems no closer than _any_ language allowing sequences of digits to have their usual meaning.
21:39:19 <lament> a digit is a command meaning 'press a similarly labeled button on your phone'
21:39:48 <oklopol> but, 0..9 are just functions that return a value
21:40:05 <oklopol> that's what gave me the impression
21:40:27 <oklopol> that numbers are not parsed as such but instead calculated like that
21:40:27 <lament> oklopol: what's the type signature?
21:40:28 <oerjan> yes but they are the wrong functions, and they work completely differently after ,
21:40:49 <oklopol> it would be cool if it worked like that
21:41:27 <oerjan> indeed in the context of Sadol , is a function with variable number of arguments. _it_ has some of this flavor but not the digits themselves.
21:42:17 <oerjan> i would guess that ,3 x y z is 100*x+10*y+z in general, say
21:43:10 <oklopol> i don't see any real difference... might be this pain in my eyes
21:43:54 <oerjan> well in sadol you give , arguments, which possibly need not be digits.
21:44:52 <oerjan> in my idea a digit modifies a number, which may possibly not start as 0 before the first digit.
21:45:20 <oklopol> i'm beginning to understand i misunderstood you earlier
21:45:32 <lament> personally i think having digit objects is dumb.
21:45:37 <oerjan> say in a stack based language, 3 might modify the top of the stack
21:46:06 <lament> in a way, you're incorporating the decimal system into your language
21:46:19 <oerjan> well it is smart if you are trying to make every token a single character
21:46:20 <lament> and it doesn't deserve such niceties :)
21:46:59 <oerjan> which doesn't deserve such niceties? my language or the decimal system?
21:47:35 <oerjan> anyhow so far my language consists of nothing more than these digit functions, and a command to set the top of stack to 0
21:47:56 <lament> oerjan: ditch digits, use roman numerals
21:48:15 <lament> the semantics of individual commands will be deliciously fucked up
21:49:21 <oerjan> well roman numerals are very close to adding a fixed number
21:49:49 <lament> sometimes, they subtract :)
21:49:57 <oerjan> the subtractions were not in the original system
21:50:59 <oerjan> hm, it might still be possible to make them functions.
21:51:00 <lament> i suppose 'IX' and 'IV' are really single tokens
21:52:03 <oerjan> say a roman numeral adds if it divides the current number
21:53:41 <oerjan> if not, you take the remainder and inverts its sign first
21:54:05 <lament> like i said, deliciously fucked up :)
21:54:24 <lament> and you could have a mix of both notations
21:54:33 <lament> using the same register
21:54:41 <oerjan> in fact you don't need two rules. if the remainder is 0 you don't change anything by inverting it.
21:55:06 <lament> that's much better than the state-based system for parsing them that i've read about somewhere
21:55:29 <lament> of course it doesn't catch erroneous numerals but that's just convention
21:56:53 <oerjan> you could require the remainder to have the right relationship to s.
21:57:21 <lament> not sure if it's really worth it
21:57:33 <lament> and like i said, this way makes it easiest to freely mix roman and arabic digits
21:57:52 <lament> that could potentially save you some space compared to either method
21:57:59 <lament> though i dunno if it actually does in practice
21:58:17 <lament> challenge: write a program to give the shortest 'mixed' numeral for a given number :)
21:59:22 <oerjan> you could do things like 3M = 1997
21:59:23 <lament> kinda hard to beat arabic though, usually
22:01:45 <lament> is there a good way to write 1997?
22:04:20 <lament> at least the algorithm for determining the shortest numeral halts :)
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22:05:22 <oerjan> in numerals? exactly who were you calling sick?
22:05:32 <oklopol> you, but it was a complement
22:05:42 <oerjan> i know, i am used to it
22:07:41 <oerjan> time to fire up another copy of Hugs
22:08:10 <oerjan> i baptize these the Arombiac numbers
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22:38:32 * lament generates all the numerals with 5 digits or less
22:39:32 <lament> it seems that after 3000 (MMM) there's no more gains
22:40:04 <lament> past that, arabic just wins.
22:40:23 <oerjan> that pesky exponential growth!
22:40:44 <lament> a "saner" numeral anyway
22:41:03 <lament> my entire thing is wrong!!!
22:41:52 <oerjan> yes so there will be infinitely many gains because you can always prolong a winner
22:48:10 <lament> 5009 = D9 but 5010 = L10
22:48:35 <lament> who said roman numerals were useless?
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00:47:42 <Pikhq> lament: Anyone who needs the number 0.
00:49:53 <Pikhq> 1997, of course, equals MCX7.
00:51:40 <Pikhq> Err. . . That's wrong.
01:14:34 <Pikhq> But 10 is shorter still (base unspecified). :p
01:44:11 <fizzie> Many rules frown on CIC and want CXCIX instead.
01:45:01 <fizzie> "Thus, one should represent the number "ninety-nine" as XCIX, not as the "shortcut" IC. However, these rules are not universally followed." says Wikipedia on "XCIX or IC".
01:45:04 <Pikhq> I frown on positive-integer-only numerics.
01:45:34 <fizzie> But remember: A frown takes N muscles, while a smile takes only M, with N >> M.
01:46:34 <Pikhq> Yes. Thus, a numeral system which *can* represent all real numbers (assuming infinite storage) is easier than one that can only store postive integers.
01:47:09 <Pikhq> (and, with some additions, the real number numeral system also handles complex numbers)
02:13:03 <lament> Pikhq: adding a '-' in front of roman numerals is not any different from adding it in front of decimal numerals.
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17:18:09 -!- lament has set topic: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/.
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23:52:17 <bsmntbombdood> that turing machine in the topic has no halt state
23:54:22 <oerjan> you can use any halting computation to test, i think
23:54:47 <oerjan> any halting computation to set up, too
23:55:10 <lament> bsmntbombdood: to check when to halt, you analyze the state
23:55:35 <lament> bsmntbombdood: but the rule for halting has to be sufficiently simple
23:55:47 <oerjan> basically, you code and decode a computation from/into this machine using some other program.
23:57:39 <oerjan> the point is that the de/coder should be simple enough that you know _it_ is not providing the universality
23:58:05 <oerjan> hm, simply being halting may not be enough
23:58:51 <lament> you just have to satisfy the committee
23:59:06 <lament> which, realistically, shouldn't be difficult unless you're actually cheating
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00:29:48 <ihope> lament: pff, go and ruin all our HD-DVD fun? ;-)
00:29:56 <ihope> At least, I think that's what it is.
00:29:59 <ihope> Something like that.
00:35:30 <oerjan> decoding an infinite computation makes it much more difficult to define what it means not to cheat - you can no longer just require halting checker
00:36:35 <oerjan> basically, a computation that just added an increasing counter to the end of the program text would be universal if you allowed it
00:37:19 <oerjan> since the checker could simply be "run program for counter number of steps"
00:38:07 <bsmntbombdood> encode the code in the number of steps to run the tm
00:38:24 <oerjan> in fact even primitive recursive may be strong enough to allow the cheat
00:38:43 <oerjan> no, the encoder cannot do that if it is to halt
00:39:54 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: or maybe i don't understand what you mean
00:40:48 <bsmntbombdood> have a function decode:tape state -> number of steps ran
00:42:01 <bsmntbombdood> encode the program into a natural number, run tm that many steps, decode tape contents
00:42:45 <oerjan> that would not be universal, because it always halts.
00:43:57 <oerjan> note that _only_ the tm is allowed to run indefinitely. i assume that the decoder gets to run once per step, with the current tape state
00:44:18 <oerjan> but not with any own state from previous steps
00:45:58 <oerjan> but still it gets too strong to allow a decoder that is arbitrarily primitive recursive
00:46:23 <oerjan> because that is enough for "run a program n number of steps" inside the decoder
00:47:10 <oerjan> on the other hand, i assume anything grep-like is definitely allowed
00:47:59 <oerjan> which means essentially, fixed memory limit for the checker
00:48:55 <oerjan> and almost anything that is more than that could be used to cheat
00:51:08 <oerjan> because you could simply have a checker that ran N steps or until it ran out of its current resource limit
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12:32:06 <Keymaker> a new thue program for a change. look-and-say sequence in thue: http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/programs/thue/las.t
12:35:01 <Keymaker> by the way, the original (i think) thue interpreter has some bug in it that can happen with 1-character strings (iirc). i can't remember anymore what it exactly was, but i noticed it in the c interpreter when one program i did didn't seem to work correctly and i was sure it was correct. then i made some simple test program and found the bug. so use some other interpreter.
12:36:16 <Keymaker> oh, i also uploaded new version of my digital root calculator in thue, not that anyone cares. there's also padovan sequence in underload (using unary) i made recently...
12:37:29 <Keymaker> expect some larger and more complex esoprogs again, soon.
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16:47:34 * SimonRC imagines some sci-fi about a person transported to a universe with immense negative curvature.
16:48:03 <SimonRC> enough that he gets slightly broke bones, but not enough to kill him
16:48:12 <SimonRC> ah, the fun you can have with the concept.
17:05:26 <oklopol> what is negative curvature? i wanna join the fun
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17:25:30 <lament> SimonRC: read "inverted world"
17:25:34 <lament> SimonRC: you'll love it
17:28:10 <oklopol> stop being interesting without sharing it!
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17:33:34 <oklopol> i meant negative curvature and inverted world :)
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20:18:29 <SimonRC> oklopol: You Know You're A Geek When: you just assume that eveyone you meet knows what hyperbolic geometry is.
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02:21:11 <SimonRC> hey! this one isn't too bad! http://tones.wolfram.com/id/G8fuTDyewoJcfgFql3KixKw9NU9n11RdNXsQWz7ot0j15YYZ6
02:32:17 <GregorR> Just for giggles, I wrote a program to use (attempt to) use genetic algorithms to generate a P'' program that will produce the text "Hello, world!"
02:32:27 <GregorR> The closest it got after 1000 iterations was "HMMMMMMMMMMM!"
02:32:48 <GregorR> (PS I don't have a fegging clue how to do this)
02:33:14 <Pikhq> Step one: realise that P'' is a formally defined Brainfuck.
02:34:30 <GregorR> If I had given it I/O, I would've said Brainfuck.
02:34:53 <Pikhq> What I fail to see is why it's *quite* so hard.
02:35:25 <GregorR> Pikhq: My mutations were purely "add something random" and "remove something random"
02:35:46 <Pikhq> Realising, of course, that you've already *got* a genetic algorithm for such generation in your HD; it's just a matter of patching it to not do I/O. . .
02:37:07 <oerjan> if i am guessing correctly that the program needs to put "Hello, world!" on the tape then the brainfuck version will not apply directly
02:37:33 <Pikhq> oerjan: It's a matter of changing a current genetic algorithm slightly.
02:37:41 <GregorR> And besides, the goal was to WRITE THIS MYSELF.
02:38:04 <oerjan> the current genetical algorithm is very tied to the use of a fixed set of cells
02:38:41 <GregorR> For some reason this seems really inclined to repeat the second character a lot.
02:38:45 <Pikhq> Change it to replace . with an appropriate loop to copy it into a cell.
02:38:47 <oerjan> it essentially does not attempt to do _instructions_ randomly.
02:38:50 <SimonRC> hehehe, somone on c.l.forth made a blanket statement that addrtesses are never negative...
02:39:13 <SimonRC> ... needles(s) to say, he got corrected with dozens of examples.
02:39:17 <oerjan> hm, i suppose that _could_ work
02:40:29 <SimonRC> you need a better program-mutator...
02:40:48 <Pikhq> int fit(char *s) {return 1;}
02:42:47 <SimonRC> data Prog = Seq Prog Prog | Loop Prog | Lam | R
02:42:59 <ihope> You're such a LamR.
02:43:00 <SimonRC> directly from the Wikipedia article.
02:43:20 <SimonRC> then, you mutate the program by fiddling with the tree
02:44:51 <SimonRC> Also, tree-surgery makes for a good way to mate programs together.
02:45:36 <SimonRC> I recall all this from a breif mention of the advantages of LISP for exvolving computer programs in the book Artificial Life (a good book).
02:46:08 <SimonRC> The main one being that the explicit tree structures help you avoid syntax errors.
03:00:51 <GregorR> Closest so far: "???????wor??!"
03:01:28 <oerjan> given the nature of BF, perhaps it is an idea to let fitness be based on initial segment
03:02:03 <oerjan> hm, that actually makes more sense for . output
03:02:22 <GregorR> It would give earlier letters a higher precedence.
03:03:16 <oerjan> basically anything that fouls up the beginning is likely to foul up the rest too
03:03:39 <GregorR> I'm testing different measurements for fitness.
03:03:44 <GregorR> That one was with diff^0.75
03:06:21 <GregorR> I'm going to run ^0.75 for 100000 iterations instead of the 10000 I was just running.
03:06:35 <SimonRC> how about you just mark it on the first letter, then, once most programs are getting the first letter right, you kill off all the ones that don't, and start marking on second letter, etc?
03:06:58 <SimonRC> GregorR: give them a bonus for not being as slow as molasses, too.
03:11:00 <GregorR> After 30000 iterations: "H7NNNNNNNNNN!"
03:11:06 <oerjan> but that bonus makes ++++>++++>++++++> like programs win by default
03:12:02 <Pikhq> oerjan: Compared to really, *really* weird loops, that's not bad.
03:12:20 <GregorR> Have I mentioned I don't have a fegging clue what I'm doing?
03:12:48 <SimonRC> GregorR: can you past som of the code here?
03:12:50 <oerjan> i suggest trying SimonRC's suggestion
03:13:00 <Pikhq> Yeah. Why're you not working on Plof (I keed, I keed)? :p
03:13:06 <SimonRC> I suggest doing what oerjan just said
03:13:24 <oerjan> i suggest avoid a horrible recursion here
03:13:55 <Pikhq> oerjan: I see only a few recursions.
03:14:22 <GregorR> Darn, it seems to have stabilized at 40000 iterations and isn't really getting better now.
03:14:36 <oerjan> you have probably hit a local optimum
03:14:51 <Pikhq> (simon-rc-agrees (oerjan-suggests (simon-rc-suggests '(Mark letter by leter))))
03:15:07 <oerjan> any minor change just makes things worse
03:15:34 <SimonRC> GregorR: also: use my new datastructure.
03:16:58 * Pikhq should try and get PlofBrainfuck to work. . .
03:20:37 <SimonRC> 02:41:48 < SimonRC> data Prog = Seq Prog Prog | Loop Prog | Lam | R
03:20:48 <SimonRC> I assume you are using strings ATM.
03:23:42 <GregorR> I'm not so sure how to randomize that :)
03:26:15 <SimonRC> You just need some operations: spilt a Loop, join Loops, transpose Seq, re-arrange Seq, mutate, splicing, etc.
03:26:26 <SimonRC> and insert and delete, fo course
03:27:00 <SimonRC> GregorR: it's trivial in any language with algebraic datatypes.
03:27:49 <SimonRC> OTOH, you could write 10 classes to do the same thing in an OO language, and claim they were all necessary.
03:28:00 <SimonRC> (OO is great for generating work.)
03:28:51 <SimonRC> " Object-oriented programming generates a lot of what looks like work. Back in the days of fanfold, there was a type of programmer who would only put five or ten lines of code on a page, preceded by twenty lines of elaborately formatted comments. Object-oriented programming is like crack for these people: it lets you incorporate all this scaffolding right into your source code. Something that a Lisp hacker might handle by pushing a symbol onto a list beco
03:30:44 <SimonRC> OO gives a fantastic productivity improvement over procedural languages in the same way that Soviet Communism gave a fantastic productivity improvement over the preceding feudalism.
04:00:37 <GregorR> I had set a tick limit of 1000 on my P'' interpreter and forgotten about it :(
04:00:56 <GregorR> So actually, it works quite well.
04:25:54 <GregorR> I can't seem to find a way to balance it properly such that it prefers shorter programs ... I think the main problem is that most loops it produces are endless, and it shies away from programs that take the entire time provided.
04:46:16 <GregorR> Should I try something ridiculous now? :P
04:46:35 <GregorR> Such as ... Idonno ... a brainfuck spam classifier X-P
04:47:09 <Pikhq> PlofBrainfuck, so I don't have to get my attempt to work. :p
04:48:36 <GregorR> I need a problem that can be solved with an algorithm, but isn't totally discrete.
04:50:24 <GregorR> No, I mean that I need an algorithm that is NOT discrete.
04:50:36 <oerjan> linear programming perhaps?
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05:39:07 <GregorR> Why don't people in #esoteric understand the concept of writing it yourself for the sake of writing it yourself X_X
05:40:37 <Pikhq> GregorR: We're also inherently lazy.
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08:44:25 <GregorR> My attempt with something more similar to SimonRC's suggested tree isn't going well :P
08:44:40 <GregorR> Heywait ... I forgot about loops X-D
08:44:52 <GregorR> So I'm just evolving simple mathematical expressions.
08:46:18 <GregorR> .........................................?
08:47:04 <GregorR> Also, it gets caught in local optima way to easily :(
08:47:10 <sanxiyn> bsmntbombdood: Eh, what does that do?
08:47:18 <bsmntbombdood> well, this bf interpreter i was writing allocated memory in blocks, and the blocks never get freed, so...
08:47:23 <GregorR> Its equation for the hypotenuse of a triangle: x+.5*y X_X
08:48:07 <bsmntbombdood> you can move the pointer into a block, never come back, but the block stays allocated
08:49:46 <bsmntbombdood> you'd need some detailed code analysis to figure out when it was safe to deallocate a block
08:50:45 <bsmntbombdood> it might not be possible without actually executing it
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22:12:41 <Figs> what would you consider to be the defining parts of a function?
22:17:28 <Figs> like, return values, sequences of commands, etc
22:19:04 <Figs> like, what makes a function a function, as opposed to, say, a firetruck
22:26:41 <lament> Figs: have you never done math?
22:26:55 <Figs> I have done math, lament
22:27:16 <Figs> I'm just trying to think about the building blocks of functions
22:28:57 <lament> not sure what those are.
22:31:50 <ihope> A function is a set of ordered pairs such that there are no two ordered pairs (x,y) and (x,z) in the set such that x != z.
22:32:43 <ihope> If (x,y) is in the set, f(x) = y.
22:33:07 <ihope> The domain is the set of all x, the image is the set of all y.
22:33:19 <ihope> Unless you want to get into impure functions, which I don't really like.
22:33:53 <ihope> That is, there's not much theoretical reason to combine the "impure" part with the "function" part
22:35:01 <ihope> An impure nullary function is either simply an atomic action or an atomic action paired with an impure unary function.
22:35:14 <ihope> That is, a pure unary function that produces an inpure nullary function.
22:35:29 <Figs> would be neat if we had a 'dirty' keyword and a 'clean' keyword as compiler hints :P
22:35:55 <Figs> void dirty function x() { outside_data +=6; }
22:36:20 <ihope> You remind me of some of my ideas.
22:36:43 <ihope> Now, if it's the pair, then it runs the atomic action, then passes its result into the function and runs the result from that.
22:37:24 <ihope> My idea was pretty much to have monads and do-notation all over.
22:37:40 <Figs> I don't know what a monad is
22:37:50 <Figs> having never really studied functional languages in depth...
22:38:19 <ihope> A monad is something that seems really complicated until it clicks and you don't know why you didn't see it before.
22:38:40 <Figs> most things seem to be like that
22:38:56 <Figs> isn't a closure sort of like a functor?
22:39:14 <ihope> A functor in the "object representing a function" sense?
22:39:46 * Figs has a primarily C++ background, for reference
22:39:47 <ihope> Now, essentially, a monad is just what I described with that "impure nullary function" stuff.
22:40:18 <Figs> what do you mean 'nullary function'?
22:40:31 <ihope> A function that takes no arguments.
22:40:45 <Pikhq> Figs: There is a "dirty" and "clean" keyword. . .
22:41:01 <Pikhq> It's called something different, but, IIRC, it was added by C99 (and C++).
22:41:02 <Figs> effectively, an action with no parameters
22:41:13 <Pikhq> (if I'm wrong, it sure as hell *is* in GNU C)
22:41:32 <ihope> A monadic type is a certain sort of type containing a type: in Haskell, for example, an I/O action that produces an integer is denoted IO Integer, as an integer is denoted Integer.
22:42:01 <ihope> The actual monad here is IO.
22:42:24 <ihope> Defining a monad requires two things: a "return" function and a ">>=" (or "bind") function.
22:43:07 <Figs> so, you're binding a variable to a nullary function that's impure?
22:43:27 <Figs> or am I missing it still?
22:43:28 <ihope> Mm, that's not really what bind does. Just a minute here...
22:43:42 <ihope> In the IO monad, return represents an action that performs no interaction and returns its result--return 3, for example.
22:44:30 <ihope> (In Haskell, "calling" a function is denoted like "foo bar" instead of "foo(bar)".)
22:45:01 <ihope> Bind is a little more complicated. One... sort of tripping point is that one of its arguments is another function.
22:45:19 <ihope> A functor, I suppose.
22:46:05 <ihope> >>= is an infix operator, so applying it is written like "foo >>= bar".
22:46:49 <ihope> The action foo >>= bar first runs the action foo, then applies the function bar to the result. The result from bar is another action, which is then run.
22:46:52 <Figs> I have no trouble with passing functions to functions -- std::for_each for example ;)
22:47:31 <ihope> One... problem, I suppose, is that monads need not represent actions.
22:47:54 <Figs> that does make it a bit more confusing
22:48:13 <ihope> The list monad, for example: the return function produces a one-element list in this case, and >>=... well.
22:48:20 <Figs> so, effectively here, what you're doing is bar(foo())
22:48:33 <Figs> but it's stored
22:49:09 <Figs> but it could be, yes?
22:49:27 <ihope> foo >>= bar does represent bar(foo()), except that foo >>= bar, like all actions here, is treated as a value.
22:49:37 <Figs> newfunction = bar(foo()) <-- pseudo-code
22:49:43 <ihope> So if you have a variable somewhere, you can store foo >>= bar in it.
22:49:46 <ihope> Just like that, yes.
22:50:04 <Figs> so where's the monad?
22:50:37 <ihope> The monad itself is IO, the thing you put before a type to say "an action producing something of this type".
22:51:19 <Figs> so effectively,
22:52:06 <Figs> function<integer> N = F(G);
22:52:12 <Pikhq> And the whole purpose of this is to allow for easy observance of side effects, I assume?
22:52:20 <ihope> Now, to illustrate the >>= function for lists, take [1,2,3] >>= (\x -> [x, x+2]). ("\x -> [x, x+2]" is a function that takes x and returns [x, x+2]: we're essentially defining a function on the fly here.) The result is [1,3,2,4,3,5]: it takes each element of [1,2,3], puts it through the function, and collects all the elements in a single list.
22:52:30 <ihope> Pikhq: something like that.
22:53:03 <Figs> ihope: it'd be like the function<integer> bit?
22:53:39 <Figs> that makes sense
22:53:45 <ihope> Figs: well, what does "function<integer> N = F(G);" mean?
22:54:25 <Figs> ihope, are you "noticing" me? I'm in a different client than I usually use, so I am not sure why you're writing in red
22:54:52 <ihope> Nope, I'm just sending plain old messages to the channel.
22:55:11 <Figs> Figs: this is a test
22:55:24 <Figs> it's just trying to get my attn ;)
22:56:08 <Figs> well, I meant it as pseudo code for a function object return that returns an integer when you call it
22:56:32 <Figs> the action being the composition of G in F
22:57:54 <Figs> is that right?
22:58:38 <Figs> or, for you other example in a pseudo-C++ like language
22:59:52 <ihope> Well, what's F(G()), then?
23:00:33 <Figs> function<array<integers> > N = lambda_function(array<integers> x) {for each in x, put x,x+2 in y then return y}
23:00:52 <Figs> if you could do "lambda_function() {}"
23:00:59 <Figs> in a C++ like language
23:01:50 <Figs> it'd be interesting to build lambda functions around prototypical objects :P
23:02:13 <ihope> Now, that looks right.
23:02:15 <Figs> (ie, objects where I can change the object's members on the fly)
23:02:35 <Figs> ok, I already knew what monads are then, just not the word
23:03:06 <Figs> why "monad" though?
23:03:22 <ihope> Dunno. What else might they be called?
23:03:34 <Figs> function objects?
23:04:15 <ihope> Well, there are other kinds of monads entirely.
23:04:16 <Figs> fonctjects! :D muahahah
23:04:23 <ihope> Continuation monads, for example.
23:04:39 <Figs> I don't like continuations
23:05:00 <Figs> they confuse me :P
23:05:26 <Figs> hmm, I should write a prototype object system in C++
23:05:29 <Figs> that'd be neat
23:05:57 <Figs> maybe I'll do that once I finish my regex system
23:06:16 <Figs> I need to add so many things to it still to make it useful :P
23:06:55 <Figs> What do you think about SQL style syntax for prototype objects?
23:07:10 <Figs> brb, I'll clarify in a minute
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23:09:07 <Figs> if you think about it
23:09:15 <Figs> prototype objects are essentially tables
23:11:01 <Figs> there are labels, type data, and pointers
23:12:03 <Figs> actually, it might make more sense to modify it
23:13:39 <Figs> are there any regex experts here?
23:13:47 <Figs> I have a weird question
23:14:48 <Figs> if I were to allow the combination of patterns with captures(can't remember the right word, but it's like \1, \2, etc), how should I refer to captures in lower levels, or should I really need to?
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23:16:57 <Figs> probably wouldn't need to, would I?
23:17:34 <Figs> it wouldn't make sense if a capture is in one part of a branch for example, but not another
23:17:38 <Figs> so only on a sequence
23:18:31 <Figs> to match a pattern
23:19:13 <Figs> subpattern[0] >> 'abc' >> captured[0]
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00:52:20 * Pikhq is done with his open-computer surgery for now. . .
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02:55:34 <Pikhq> It does. And if somebody would care to help out the GNU system maintainer, it would even *be* nice.
02:56:04 <Pikhq> (ams, in #natter and ##hurd. . . Ironically, in spite of being GNU maintainer, he's banned from #gnu)
03:00:02 <lament> Pikhq: must be a complete asshole?
03:03:52 <Pikhq> Nope. The channel owner kicked out a lot of the ops.
03:11:18 <sekhmet> zomg, ams isn't in #gnu anymore?
03:11:34 <sekhmet> <snarky>That channel might be tolerable now, then</snarky>
03:12:07 <sekhmet> </talking_about_strangers_from_irc_behind_their_backs>
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05:53:19 <GregorR> Is anyone anywhere any good with Lazy K? ^^
05:54:19 <GreaseMonkey> k, cos i've made a SKI parser and I think it might be like Lazy K without output :\
05:56:23 <lament> well, if it's a lazy ski parser, then yes, it is.
05:56:32 <bsmntbombdood> lazy K is just a few combinator languages put together isn't it?
06:08:33 <GreaseMonkey> i made a ski parser at 2 levels: level 1 = lazy evaluation, level 2 = parse brackets when they're being evaluated on
06:08:57 <GreaseMonkey> level 2 is for getting a really good evaluation and it allows SII(SII) to not crash the program
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07:24:27 <oerjan> GreaseMonkey: I pondered a bit how you could implement Lazy K such as to memorize fixpoints.
07:27:09 <oerjan> i think it would require something like your level 2, plus memorizing the result of XX functions with X.
07:29:40 <oerjan> problem is SIIX -> X(IX), so it needs to simplify the I away before knowing if IX will be evaluated.
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08:02:47 <GreaseMonkey> there is also "Level 3" parsing which my parser cannot parse (evaluate brackets from the top-down)
08:05:43 <oerjan> another option i thought of was to recognize the term SII and treat it specially.
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16:42:57 <Feuermonster> I made a new esoteric language with only one instruction: 0
16:43:23 <Feuermonster> It may print hello, world. But It may do something else.
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17:20:02 <Feuermonster> http://clonkturm.cl.ohost.de/OIIEFAVGEL.exe <- Interpreter for windows.
17:20:21 <Feuermonster> You can write some 0 in the TexBox and click NULL it.
17:24:43 <SimonRC> do you have the source around?
18:00:08 <Sgeo> um.. that doesn't look like C++
18:06:06 <SimonRC> who said anything about C++?
18:06:19 <Sgeo> "Pasted as C++"
18:07:44 <Sgeo> Yes, but whoever pasted it pasted it as C++
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18:53:24 <Pikhq> Feuermonster: Why VB?
18:53:39 <Pikhq> That's probably more esoteric than OISC.
18:54:52 <oerjan> i read somewhere that Visual Basic is the most widely used programming language.
18:56:39 <Pikhq> Fine. It's *worthy* of being called esoteric.
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18:58:06 <Pikhq> It's perhaps the most disgusting language I know of.
18:58:29 <Pikhq> And I do Brainfuck in my free time.
19:00:27 <Feuermonster> Nearly every esoteric language is easier to learn than C++.
19:01:52 <Pikhq> That's because C++ is more powerful.
19:02:13 <Feuermonster> No. It's because, you need to include headers.
19:02:35 <Pikhq> That's perhaps the easiest thing about C++.
19:02:46 <Pikhq> #include <string.h>
19:03:00 <Pikhq> Can now that you've got string.h
19:03:10 <Feuermonster> you need something like if (!(foo.Find("foo") = std::npos))
19:03:30 <oerjan> the fact that nearly no esoteric language has a proper module system is not necessarily positive.
19:03:53 <oerjan> incidentally, Pikhq's BFM comes to mind as one that does have include.
19:04:43 <Pikhq> Yeah; it's fairly weird even for an esolang.
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19:06:12 <Pikhq> Also, I fail to see what's so hard about if(foo.find("foo") != std::npos)
19:06:36 <Feuermonster> You need a lot of lines just to make if(foo.Contain("foo")) Then foo = foo.Replace("foo","fooo) in C++
19:06:40 <Pikhq> Fine, fine. It'd be easier if foo.find was declared to return the unsigned 0 instead of the unsigned std::npos. . .
19:07:45 <oerjan> but what does it return for a match at the beginning of the string?
19:08:24 * oerjan doesn't know c++ but if it returns position then that would be 0 too
19:08:35 <oklopol> you should do like php and have not finding it return false and the first index 0 and have an implicit conversion between false and 0
19:08:46 <Pikhq> Ah. Yeah, that'd be why.
19:08:48 <oklopol> i think that's pretty clever.
19:09:08 <Pikhq> C++ gets a Cism for true and false. . .
19:09:26 <oerjan> but requires dynamic typing. or Haskell Maybe types.
19:10:51 <oerjan> lookup :: Eq a => a -> [(a,b)] -> Maybe b
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19:17:18 <Feuermonster> Anyway, I wouldnt know, how to write OIIEFAVGEL in C++
19:21:06 <Feuermonster> OIIEFAVGEL = one instruction is enough for a very good esoteric language
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19:28:42 <oerjan> um, you don't need Randomize _inside_ the loop.
19:29:19 <oerjan> and you miss a Dim for var.
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19:31:46 <Pikhq> What is there to parse?!?
19:32:02 <Pikhq> I could store OIEFAVGEL code within an int!
19:32:19 <Pikhq> int parsed_code=code.size();
19:32:21 * oerjan doesn't get all the people who call nearly their entire interpreters "the parser"
19:32:59 <Pikhq> Surely a parser just lets you get at the individual nodes and all that so that your compiler can do stuff with it?
19:34:28 <oerjan> i think i would call that thing "the main interpreter loop"
19:34:56 <Feuermonster> in OIIEFAVGEL there is only one valid character: 0
19:34:59 <oerjan> being essentially a repl sort of thing
19:37:15 <Pikhq> My parser for your language. . .
19:37:24 <Feuermonster> It's just a "joke language". You cant make any "good" Programms with OIIEFAVGEL.
19:38:40 <Pikhq> while(i!=string::npos) {i = code.find(i, 1, "0"); newcode += 0;}
19:39:17 <Pikhq> See? Damned simple to parse.
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19:40:08 <Pikhq> It gets you a string called newcode which has each char as a node.
19:40:24 <Pikhq> That's all a parser does: in goes code, out goes parsed nodes.
19:40:56 <Pikhq> And the interpreter? while(i!=newcode.size()) {do_interp();i++}
19:41:09 <Pikhq> (where do_interp randomly selects an operation to perform)
19:41:29 <oerjan> pikhq: you are forgetting the parser error message
19:41:40 <Pikhq> oerjan: Right. . .
19:42:26 <Pikhq> if(i == 0){error("ERROR: couldn't find \"0\" in" << code);}
19:43:15 <Pikhq> (in C++, I regularly define a macro "error" as: #define error(x) {cerr << x << endl;exit(1);}
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21:13:16 * SimonRC wonders what the proper way to uninstall per-user software is
21:23:46 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/s/Ulimon.mp3 hope you like my music
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21:28:27 <oklopol> it was a 5 minute project, but i kinda... you know... it's great <3
21:28:37 <SimonRC> It;s a load of random noises
21:29:28 * SimonRC listens to some the other mp3s
21:29:46 <SimonRC> wtf is "black.mp3"? I needs a video
21:30:07 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogg
21:30:44 <SimonRC> Just how did you generate brainfuck.mp3? It is some kind of trace, or the output of one?
21:30:56 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/s/brainfuck.mp3 ?
21:31:34 <oklopol> also, a program of mine that creates random melodies
21:31:38 <SimonRC> Oh, I thought you might have derived it from a running Brainfuck program somehow
21:31:57 <oklopol> yeah... i wish it had something to do with brainfuck
21:32:21 <oklopol> i made a bf interpreter with output going into a mid file that's played when the program terminates
21:32:38 <oklopol> but it turned out i only managed to create square and saw
21:33:12 * Pikhq should play around with BFaudio a bit. . .
21:33:41 <oklopol> i thought i'd make it mid output, but i had the wav one finished by then
21:34:46 <SimonRC> ISTR a story about an old (big) computer that created a load of radio noise. If you tuned a radio to the right frequency, you could hear the program running, and with practice tell which part of which program it was, and if it had crashed.
21:35:16 <GregorR> Well, the ENIAC was used to play music, everybody knows that story :)
21:35:20 <Pikhq> It's a program that converts raw audio to Brainfuck code to output that.
21:35:21 <SimonRC> I find that I can hear webpages loading (on my earphones) if there is no other sound playing.
21:35:25 <Pikhq> GregorR: No, I don't. . .
21:36:08 * SimonRC wonders what the best way to derive sound from a running brainfuck program would be.
21:36:19 <SimonRC> i.e. what would give the best effect?
21:36:37 <SimonRC> Something like CHOON might work.
21:36:44 <oklopol> 8 commands... 8 notes in a scale
21:37:10 <SimonRC> (I find the CHOON division program result quite musical actually.)
21:37:22 <SimonRC> you would want 44k instr/sec, usually
21:37:38 <oklopol> okay.. so byte per instruction
21:37:46 * GregorR thinks that doing 8 commands->8 notes is a bad idea.
21:37:48 <SimonRC> Argh! This mp3 has an inaudible sound that makes my sinu hurt, at the end!
21:37:56 <GregorR> Representing the tape is probably a bad idea.
21:38:03 <GregorR> Representing the tape is probably a better idea.
21:38:18 <SimonRC> nah, it only changes a little at a time...
21:38:44 <oklopol> if you want to be able to know where you are in the program then just have it tell you that...
21:38:56 <SimonRC> unless, you set the output amplitude to be the current byte on the tape at each instruction...
21:39:15 <SimonRC> moving over stacks and the like would produce a cool noise
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21:40:12 <oklopol> prolly not, since you can't produce > 170 hZ
21:40:19 <oklopol> actually of course you can
21:42:14 <oklopol> ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>[<>] will start producing ~16000 or 11025 depending on [] management
21:45:50 <bsmntbombdood> no, it would be whatever the instruction execution rate was
21:47:03 <Pikhq> bsmntbombdood: You forget output.
21:47:18 <oklopol> Pikhq: each cycle the current value is output
21:47:34 <Pikhq> Um, that's not BFaudio, then.
21:47:54 <oklopol> plus, it's not as fast as mine
21:48:03 <Pikhq> BFaudio outputs raw audio for /dev/dsp via stdout. ;)
21:48:17 <Pikhq> (it could be made better if PESOIX were implemented)
21:48:19 <oklopol> plus it's amplitude is so small even a monkey couldn't hear it
21:48:27 <SimonRC> ouch! infinite makefile recursion!....
21:48:38 <SimonRC> the "clean" rule includes the line:
21:48:59 <SimonRC> but the dir gc doesn;t exist (broken symlink)
21:49:10 <Pikhq> $(MAKE) -c gc clean
21:49:10 <GregorR> That's not particularly bad style.
21:49:28 <Pikhq> It's bad style for exactly the error SimonRC is getting.
21:49:48 <GregorR> Pikhq: I mean that make -C hasn't always existed :)
21:50:17 <Pikhq> There's a *reason* it exists now. ;)
21:52:14 <SimonRC> Dear writers of Joy. Please distrubute the *contents* of directories, not broken symlinks to them. Love Simon.
21:52:47 <GregorR> What's really bad is that automake by default creates all the necessary automake scripts with symlinks rather than copies.
21:53:20 <GregorR> So people will use automake without -c and distribute utterly broken tarballs with symlinks to nonexisting files :)
21:53:59 <SimonRC> Oh thats a load of fucking use(!) Theier bugfix page gives me a 404.
22:08:57 <SimonRC> "installer" and "suprise" are not generally two words you want to go togther.
22:18:37 <fizzie> What -- you want people to be _bored_ with their installers?
22:19:18 <GregorR> CONGRATULATIONS! You're the 100th person to install this software! So I'm reformatting your hard drive!
22:51:08 <SimonRC> this "factor" thin glooks interesting. Quite why the heck the installer spends several seconds doing things like "Compiling *" I don't know.
22:53:10 <Pikhq> GregorR: ERROR: fsck not found in path
22:56:30 <Pikhq> GregorR: Where's the latest EgoBF?
22:56:51 <Pikhq> Not the one on esolangs.org, since I know that you've touched it since 2005?
23:08:24 <GregorR> I haven't touched it since 2005.
23:09:08 <Pikhq> I remember you doing a minor bug fix last year.
23:09:21 <GregorR> ... I don't remember that ^^
23:09:30 <GregorR> I can't check right now, I'm on my way out.
23:09:35 <Pikhq> Something about the compiler outputting borken code.
23:12:33 <SimonRC> hmm, I think I am begining to like Forth.
23:13:01 <SimonRC> I thought "What might the word be to print a newline?", gueesed it was "nl", and I was right!
23:13:15 <oklopol> i think i should stop listening to ulimon.mp3
23:13:18 <SimonRC> then similarly for "flush" being the command to flush stdout
23:14:56 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/s/Ulimon.mp3 << this one
23:15:59 <oklopol> you're right, no reason to stop
23:16:02 <SimonRC> I like http://lemondemon.com/lemondemon/Word%20Disassociation.mp3 (plug, plug)
23:16:18 <SimonRC> I mean, why are you listening to it at *all*?
23:18:58 <oklopol> that piece is not really interesting
23:19:46 <oklopol> well, i admit the base chord in the chorus being both major and minor alternatively is kinda cool
23:20:34 <oklopol> but otherwise it's just loop and ancient chord ...something
23:20:48 <oklopol> it seems i have no vocabulary for discussing music in english
23:22:26 <oklopol> the whole day i've been trying to get a guy to understand c does not have the perfect syntax
23:24:17 <oklopol> he wants a scripting language for his os, i agreed to make it, so i design this cool syntax... and suddenly he says he's got the spec ready and sends me a text file with half of c syntax specified so bad i didn't even understand it was a spec at first
23:29:38 <Pikhq> sexps are the ultimate syntax. ;)
23:30:35 <oklopol> anything else is just syntactic sugar over it
23:31:39 <oklopol> SimonRC: i'm pretty sure you don't like it because you don't understand the lyrics, they are very important
23:34:24 <oklopol> they were generated by translating back and forth with babelfish
23:34:56 <oklopol> so it's random and plagiated at the same time
23:39:36 <fizzie> 1. plagiarize, plagiarise, lift -- (take without referencing from someone else's writing or speech; of intellectual property)
23:39:50 <fizzie> You evil intellectual property stealer, you.
23:40:32 <oklopol> babelfish did it, i was but a goon.
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05:16:43 <SimonRC> Factor (a Forth-like language) FTW!
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13:36:27 <alex-4> huh. it's usually called "pizda"
14:48:43 * SimonRC reads about a small company that has a 2:1 manager:developer ratio.
15:32:10 <Pikhq> SimonRC: Sounds a bit too much like a 3:2 guard:prisoner ratio.
15:35:08 * SimonRC recounts the joke about the two lions.
15:37:53 <alex-4> Pikhq: It's much worse when it's 3:2 prisoner:citizen ratio.
15:40:38 <Pikhq> alex-4: Makes the revolution easy; the government's under arrest already (at least partially). :p
15:43:17 <SimonRC> Do prisoners count as citizens? I hope so.
15:44:16 <Pikhq> Not if you're in Guantanamo.
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20:02:49 * SimonRC watches with fascination: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMBwd_WSvoU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD9TdZMRsIs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzqittCLmGs
20:08:46 <SimonRC> The SW prequels are about the turning of a republic into a totalitarian state. WWII was a war between nations and empires.
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23:59:03 <Pikhq> Permission requested to use my brain.
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06:09:04 <Pikhq> I'd like that deep fried, thanks.
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15:12:01 <oklopol> i wish i were as cool as you all
16:20:05 <SimonRC> I found that the *original* "Spelling Chequer" poem is still preserved in the Web Archive:
16:20:08 <SimonRC> http://web.archive.org/web/20050116015142/http://www.cfwf.ca/farmj/fjjun96/#spell
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17:55:40 <toiletweasel> I have an idea for a programming language based on pokmon.
17:56:04 <toiletweasel> I think I can take Chef and transform it a bit.
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18:15:06 * SimonRC decides that the creator of the shock site goatse.cz was a sick bastard.
18:15:12 <SimonRC> It doesn't even have a DOCTYPE declaration!
18:15:15 <SimonRC> Never mind any sort of seperation of presentation and content
18:15:19 <SimonRC> there are horrors like: <font color="#000000">
18:15:31 <SimonRC> good old HTML 3.x, this, I'm sure.
18:15:54 <SimonRC> It's a good job I was using a text-only browser.
18:18:13 <oklopol> speaking of me not knowing the adjective form of horror... got the top grade in english in the matriculation exams today
18:28:48 <GregorR> There are at least three adjective forms.
18:28:52 <GregorR> Horrible, horrifying and horrific.
18:28:57 <GregorR> Each have slightly different meanings.
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18:29:18 <lament> matriculation sounds painful.
18:31:17 <SimonRC> Did you know that cook and cookie are not cognates?
18:31:30 <SimonRC> Neither are fear, fright, and afraid.
18:32:35 <oklopol> actually i'm pretty sure i know the meanings... guess i'm tired or something
18:32:50 <oklopol> your mum is a cognate and i'm goint to sleep
18:33:24 <oklopol> scratch it all, i have to watch south park
19:22:49 <oerjan> I sometimes have problems with this newfangled interweb slang. Would that be Left Upper Lobe or Love U Lots?
19:24:08 <oerjan> (i also never quite got into this Age of Irony thing.)
19:24:46 <bsmntbombdood> past participle of "to lol" with a dash of punk'd flair
19:25:14 <oerjan> hm. lol, lols, lul'd, has lollen?
19:28:41 <oerjan> hm. if you die of laughing is that a lollabye?
19:31:22 <oerjan> i guess if your head explodes from laughing that would a lollipop.
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20:13:55 <sebbu> i HATE rizon and njabl.org / je hait rizon et njabl.org
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22:02:48 <SimonRC> I men, One Laptop Per Child?
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10:20:14 <SimonRC> Wait, did I say that out loud?
11:21:15 <fizzie> I didn't hear anything.
12:49:02 <SimonRC> that was a punchline from explosm.net
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12:49:58 <SimonRC> there are two panels of thses three guys just sitting around. in the third panel, one guy says: "Did I say that out loud?"
12:58:26 <fizzie> Oh, right; I've seen that.
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22:32:09 * Pikhq does a wordcount on BFM. . .
22:32:21 <Pikhq> 5392 lines of code in that little thing.
22:32:49 <Pikhq> . . . Ah. Nearly 4000 are auto-generated in stdcons.bfm.
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22:43:59 <Pikhq> I'm not seeing an article of that name. . .
22:44:05 <oklopol> it requires some real skill to create a language that actually has to do with pokemon
22:44:46 <oklopol> easy to create a lang and rename commands to be pokemon phrases though
22:45:31 <SuperAussieEvil6> I didn't like the idea of using just pure ASCII numbers for programming.
22:47:02 <oklopol> mm yes, now you create an assembly language, index the commands, the rest is just look-upping
22:47:17 <oklopol> you can translate anything to pokemons, of course.
22:47:34 <oklopol> so the language can be designed completely separately
22:47:51 <oklopol> but i suppose you know that and ask for help in designing it
22:48:03 <oklopol> that's not all that esoteric, so i'll watch south park :)
22:48:13 <oklopol> too late for anything too serious
22:49:05 <oklopol> it must not be serious, it need not be esoteric :)
22:49:30 <oklopol> fun is also non-serious, i'd say
22:55:24 <Pikhq> What'd be *fun* is defining a language in such a way that you've got a series of Pokemon, each with a set of attacks which are used. . . The interpreter goes through the defined party and executes each Pokemon's attacks.
22:57:00 <oklopol> or even better, something like the magic the gathering thing i read about somewhere, where the language is just a playing strategy that makes mtg tc :)
22:57:14 <oklopol> there are so many mtg card it might even be possible
22:57:27 <oklopol> since even a rotten apple on a string is tc.
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22:59:32 <SuperAussieEvil6> Such that you'll find yourself going, "Now was 'Ember' the register increase move?"
23:06:15 <oklopol> that should be for exit(1)
23:07:22 <oklopol> heh, progemon, where you catch progemons and use their evil moves to segfault their enemy
23:08:45 <Pikhq> The noop would be equally obvious. . .
23:10:58 <oklopol> randomization can be done with metronome
23:12:35 <Pikhq> Hmm. . . Looping. . .
23:13:11 <oklopol> i think there are forms of recursion there...
23:13:29 <oklopol> it's many years since i played
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23:17:16 <oklopol> but looping is already how battles are fought
23:17:27 <oklopol> hit - hit - hit - hit - etc.
23:22:07 <Pikhq> What's needed is a way to change the Pokemon that will be executed. . .
23:22:28 <oklopol> many moves change current pokemon
23:23:15 <Pikhq> I've got an idea for a Pokemon call, at least. Not sure if it adds to Turing completeness, though.
23:23:48 <oklopol> well, storing data is kinda hard
23:23:55 <Pikhq> Mimic will pop a number off the stack, and the current Pokemon will mimic that Pokemon (this assumes that the specified Pokemon are numbered).
23:24:57 <Pikhq> Push and pop would need to be implemented. . . Probably a physical attack of some sort.
23:25:17 <Pikhq> Now, will Pokemon be limited to 4 attacks, or will they have more?
23:25:49 <oklopol> if you can change pokemon to any other, i don't think you need more
23:26:44 <Pikhq> Soon as the mimiced Pokemon's attacks are done, it goes back to the mimicing Pokemon. . .
23:26:50 <Pikhq> Yeah, I think that should do it.
23:27:00 <Pikhq> It'll be annoying and weird, but it'll work. ;)
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23:31:41 <Pikhq> Recursion can happen with that, though.
23:32:26 <Pikhq> pokemon 1 { add_attack, Mimic, Splash, Splash };
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23:44:34 <Pikhq> I'm not sure what the attack would be for that.
23:49:13 <Pikhq> Psuedo-C: push(pop()++);
01:34:16 <oklopol> i've never quite understood how it can be so quiet here at this hour
01:34:33 <oklopol> so in america, it's prime time right?
01:40:24 <oklopol> might be the time when people go to school and shit
01:50:04 <Pikhq> I'm just busy doing other things, like trying to get a PS2 emulator working.
01:59:07 <oklopol> well i should sleep.... hope you get it working
01:59:42 <Pikhq> I've got myself a working PS2 emulator. . . Which runs damned slowly.
02:00:25 <oklopol> i've actually played the playstation 1 demo cd games... and prolly something else
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02:01:20 <oklopol> my eyes hurt like hell ------>
02:02:48 <Pikhq> . . . Ah. The x86_64 build currently has an unoptimized recompiler, but the x86 build is fairly optimized.
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02:29:10 <oklopol> masturbation causes eye pain?
02:30:04 <bsmntbombdood> what's a good function to score rational approximations to pi?
02:30:25 <bsmntbombdood> i'm thinking score(a, b) = (log(b, 10) + log(a, 10) + 2) * -1./log(abs(a/b - pi), 10)
02:31:38 <oklopol> calculate it and use the fact doubles are easily converted to rationals... ta-daa
02:35:53 <bsmntbombdood> 355/113 turns out to be a very good approximation using that metric
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02:55:05 <SimonRC> Argh! Haskell numeric libraries == pain.
03:15:20 <bsmntbombdood> there needs to be a better than brute force algorithm to do this
03:21:34 <SimonRC> according to Haskell's Doubles and the window calculator, it is closer
03:21:47 <SimonRC> what is your scoring syste,?
03:22:00 <bsmntbombdood> but you have to take into account the lengths of the numbers
03:23:17 <SimonRC> in that case there may not be anything better than 355/113, ever
03:38:01 <bsmntbombdood> if you use (log(b) + log(a) + 2) * abs(a/b - pi), there are lots
04:12:13 <Pikhq> How does -O2 *hurt* performance (in comparison to what)?
04:16:59 <bsmntbombdood> i'm running it with denominators up to 10**11, get back to you in 15 hours on that
04:35:29 <Pikhq> I think your C compiler's broken.
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05:04:00 <bsmntbombdood> after this the floating point errors will make it worthless
05:05:19 <Pikhq> What language are you using? C, C++?
05:05:28 * Pikhq really prefers C++ for GMP stuff. . .
05:05:57 <Pikhq> If used right, it's wonderful.
05:06:25 <Pikhq> If you do something weird like make operator+ do multiplication, though, I will have to hunt someone down and kill that someone.
05:11:28 <Pikhq> Uh. . . Why would you use an integer for a non-integer?
05:12:45 <Pikhq> mpz_t is the GMP integer type. . .
05:12:58 <Pikhq> And I assume by rational, you mean "non-integer rational".
05:13:11 <Pikhq> (otherwise, why not just say integer?)
05:13:35 <Pikhq> I paid attention that day of middle school.
05:14:17 <Pikhq> Why not use, say, mpq_t?
05:15:08 <bsmntbombdood> because i don't actually do anything with the rational
05:17:05 <Pikhq> typedef struct {mpz_t numerator,denominator} mpq_t; is, I believe, the mpq_t definition.
05:18:31 <Pikhq> Of course, you could use the macros mpq_numref and mpq_denref. . .
05:19:41 <Pikhq> Or just do it your own way, and wait as I wonder why you need the numerator and denominator of a rational, but not the rational itself.
05:21:37 <bsmntbombdood> a = round(b*pi); error = (log(b) + log(a) + 2) / -log(abs(a/b - pi)); if(error < min_error) {min_error = error; min_denom = b;}
05:23:02 <Pikhq> int main(){mpz_class a,b;/* your code*/}
05:23:13 <Pikhq> And that's what I do.
05:25:37 <Pikhq> Realise that c++ = suck *really* means that c sucks, and c then gets incremented.
05:30:20 <Pikhq> And you've not changed the meaning at all. . . You've just managed to pour some more memory into it.
05:30:50 <Pikhq> tmp = c++; means that tmp is set to c, and c is then incremented. Then you say that tmp == suck.
05:30:58 <Pikhq> Since tmp==c, c==suck.
05:32:09 <bsmntbombdood> which actually means c won't let itself be insulted
05:32:27 <Pikhq> That's what you get for failing at C semantics.
05:32:45 <Pikhq> (and thereby failing at C++ semantics)
05:34:19 <Pikhq> The second "c" has an incremented value.
05:34:40 <Pikhq> However, (C == C++) *does* return true.
05:34:48 <Pikhq> It's perfectly legal.
05:37:31 <Pikhq> Hrm. Something's wrong with my compiler. . .
05:37:38 <Pikhq> I've got it saying (2 == 3).
05:39:16 * Pikhq kicks C in the shins for a bit
05:40:19 <Pikhq> (c++ == 1) is true, then (c == 1) is true, and finally (c++ == c).
05:40:38 <Pikhq> And, after that, it says c == 2.
05:40:43 <Pikhq> Just to make things more confusing.
05:41:27 <bsmntbombdood> with -Wall it also says warning: operation on ‘c’ may be undefined
05:42:16 <Pikhq> Which would explain why the hell something weird is happening.
05:43:46 <bsmntbombdood> apparently GMP doesn't support operations with long longs
05:44:34 <Pikhq> Well, yeah. . . GMP is a bignum library, not a native datatype library.
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07:12:45 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: you need to read up on continued fractions.
07:13:34 <oerjan> those give you the best approximations.
07:15:19 <oerjan> closeness given size of denominator, i think
07:18:19 <oerjan> found it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continued_fraction#Best_rational_approximations
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07:24:55 <oerjan> the last paragraph of that section gives another "best" sense, too.
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07:35:31 <oerjan> i thought we had a discussion the other day of why things like c == c++ are undefined.
07:42:34 <bsmntbombdood> 9978066541/3176117225 isn't one of the convergents of pi
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11:32:11 <oklopol> <Pikhq> However, (C == C++) *does* return true. <<<<< undefinatorized.
11:33:16 <oklopol> oerjan saved the day already :<
11:40:15 <oklopol> but, java compensates for it's non-operator-overloadingy boringness by defining evaluation order accurately
11:41:35 <fizzie> I don't think a well-defined evaluation order is all that interesting.
11:41:47 <fizzie> Quite the contrary: undefined operations add a little spice to the life.
11:44:26 <oklopol> i only find intrest determinicity
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15:30:39 * ais523 is in the wrong timezone to log on to IRC at a time they have access to a computer and come across a conversation
15:30:50 <ais523> * a computer with an IRC client
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15:46:50 <ais523> I'm busy working on Underload's parent language
15:47:19 <ais523> it's complicated, because I've changed the language I've written the interpreter in twice
15:47:33 <ais523> and have both an old imprecise spec and a new unfinished one to try to work from
15:47:42 <ais523> as well as the fact that I keep on coming up with new features it needs
16:04:01 <ais523> Yep, that's what it's called
16:04:20 <ais523> It extends it with features like variables and pointers
16:04:49 <ais523> (Imagine Scheme with goto, and you'll have some idea of what I've got myself into)
16:05:35 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix.
16:19:24 <ais523> What I've done so far can be seen at http://pastebin.ca/505403 for the next 24 hours or so
16:19:32 <ais523> I've set it to expire because it's very much a work in progress.
16:20:03 <ais523> The Perl program is the current interpreter-in-progress (but it needs reworking so it can handle programs with reasonable efficiency, with some sort of internal compression)
16:20:19 <ais523> The C++ interpreter can do more at the moment, but is an older version of the interpreter
16:20:56 <ais523> The text files are the spec; neither is complete, and the less complete one is a newer version (I was working through the alphabet, but haven't finished making the end of it rigorous yet)
16:22:54 <ais523> (By the way, does anyone else create archives using more?)
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23:21:04 <SimonRC> http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2006/08/31/your-telephone-of-tomorrow/
23:21:19 <SimonRC> Modern mobile phones, predicted in ... 1956!
23:45:27 <Pikhq> Reading the article attached. . .
23:45:37 <Pikhq> The "in 3-D" part hasn't happened yet. ;)
23:46:04 <Pikhq> And cell phones aren't normally used for duplex audio/video. ;)
23:47:00 <Pikhq> But it's a hell of a lot closer to the mark than most predictions. . .
23:47:09 <Pikhq> Hell, it's actually a reasonable thought.
23:48:56 <Pikhq> Additionally, the discuss power sources. . .
23:49:23 <Pikhq> The "solar battery" takes advantage of the photovoltaic effect to charge a battery, which is used for power. . .
23:54:29 <Pikhq> Wow. Jack Thompson is suing Microsoft.
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22:14:02 <bsmntbombdood> 1/((log(x) + log(y) + 2)/-log(abs(x/y - n))) <-- this makes for an interesting graph
22:14:24 <ehird`> Is there a word for when you're designing an esolang but it turns out it's actually quite pleasant to program in and hey, this is actually a usable, real language?
22:14:28 <ehird`> if not there should be
22:30:51 <ehird`> in the context of "yay i actually wrote a useful language, oh time to reimplement all my software in it" or just "yay"
22:35:13 <ehird`> lament: in the context of "fuck now i don't get esoteric hell" or just "fuck"
22:38:18 * SimonRC recalls the time he found a fractal whose escape-times looked like a collection of rubber gloves
22:39:00 <SimonRC> these were four-digited rubber gloves
22:39:27 <SimonRC> I chucked some random functions and constants into the generic escape-time fractal generator.
22:39:39 <ehird`> factorial = dup 1 > [dup 1 - factorial *] [pop 1] if ;; <-- well, when i said "non-esoteric", I didn't mean "easy"...
22:39:52 <SimonRC> in there were mor gloves of different colours suck round the main gloves
22:39:53 <ehird`> hmm, make that just 1 -
22:40:20 <ehird`> SimonRC: TheLanguageThatWasMeantToBeEsotericButIsNowActuallyQuiteUseful
22:40:28 <ehird`> stack-based, functional.
22:40:52 <SimonRC> it is almost like Factor, but factor need more spaces
22:41:41 <ehird`> factor is cool looking
22:41:47 <ehird`> haven't actually used it tho
22:41:52 <SimonRC> It has a certain thing in common with Smalltalk...
22:42:07 <SimonRC> specifically, the primitives are a lot deeper than you think.
22:42:39 <SimonRC> In factor, you can freely muck around with the parser or lexer, or the object structure, or the inheritance mechanism
22:43:09 <SimonRC> heck, you can even change the multiple-dispatch mechanism without re-entering the methods.
22:43:16 <ehird`> hmmm... i don't think TheLa... will have that in its implementation - well, the self-hosted one i guess :)
22:43:31 <SimonRC> I realised I was dispatching on the first argument not the second, by accident, and I cahnged it and it just worked
22:43:38 * ehird` is putting off implementing it because of the syntax
22:43:45 <ehird`> i guess the syntax isn't too bad though
22:44:04 <ehird`> "str", [lambda], X = Y ;;
22:45:15 <SimonRC> you might want to go for Logo-style defining
22:45:34 <SimonRC> Logo is ridiculously simple in that way
22:46:06 <SimonRC> if you want to define a variable or function, you just do (effectively) define "name" meaning.
22:46:27 <SimonRC> the name is passed as a string/symbol, and the meaning can be a list if you want it to be a function, ISTR
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00:15:31 <ehird`> i don't even have to implement scoping
00:15:47 <ehird`> no nested "operator functions" (non-[lambda]-pushed-to-stack functions that is)
00:17:09 <ehird`> no - just a stack-based, functional language
00:17:54 <ihope> Egad... actually, yes, that is evil.
00:19:03 <ehird`> factorial = dup 1 > [dup 1 - factorial *] [pop 1] if ;;
00:19:39 <SimonRC> I think this wuold look better:
00:19:52 <SimonRC> [dup 1 > [dup 1 - factorial *] [pop 1] if] "factorial" define
00:19:52 <ehird`> ihope: monads? pah! real functional programmers MANUALLY APPLY IO
00:20:06 <SimonRC> actually, monads would be handy in Factor
00:20:09 <ehird`> OK, so they get their runtime system to do it for them, but...
00:20:21 <SimonRC> they reduce the amount of crap that you need to shuffle around on the stack
00:20:21 <ehird`> SimonRC: well - [lambda] forms aren't implicitly called
00:20:23 <ihope> Manually as in... like, how?
00:20:32 <SimonRC> ehird`: yes, that's my point
00:20:37 <ehird`> 2 [dup] --> 2 [dup], instead of 2 [dup] -> 2 2
00:21:01 <SimonRC> my example depends on that
00:21:10 <ehird`> OK.. but I like the ;;
00:21:32 <ihope> Real functional programmers do impureness?
00:21:33 <ehird`> plus it's less ugly with multiple lines:
00:21:37 <SimonRC> I push a block that is the definition of factorial, then a string that is the name of factorial, then I call "define"
00:21:41 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/64416
00:22:54 <SimonRC> I find my way more elegant
00:23:35 <SimonRC> because then "define" becomes equal to: get-current-scope's-hashtable set
00:23:54 <ehird`> scopes? this is a stack-based language ;)
00:24:03 <ehird`> the only scope i need is the global scope to store self-evaluating functions
00:24:11 <SimonRC> so you can start defining your own definition operators, like ones that do overloading
00:24:44 <SimonRC> they would just add a method the list of methods for a certain generic function
00:26:00 <ehird`> i wonder if i'll be able to handle reverse-polishness to actually write some programs in the language
00:26:17 <ehird`> ... probably. i can do some forth.
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00:46:16 <ehird`> well that parser wasn't hard
00:46:23 <ehird`> just have to make it convert X = Y ;; to a hashtable {X => Y}
00:56:41 <ehird`> .... which is the hardest part
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03:26:49 <ihope> Hello, above Australian self-serving-at-the-expense-of-others!
03:28:06 <ihope> "Super" = "above", "Aussie" = "Australian" and "Evil" =
03:28:09 <ihope> "self-serving-at-the-expense-of-others", correct?
03:52:07 <ihope> I suppose that's true.
03:52:35 <ihope> Is the horizontal line going through the nostrils called the band?
03:58:08 <ihope> ン is also a smilie.
03:58:13 <ihope> It's just not a very good one.
03:59:30 <ihope> I really need to learn what そ is.
03:59:37 <ihope> And っ too, for that matter.
03:59:39 <Pikhq> I'm agreeing, that's all.
04:00:22 <ihope> Hmm. That's like っ, only bigger.
04:00:49 <Pikhq> "tu" versus "xtu".
04:01:12 <Pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%81%A3
04:01:25 <ihope> So, uh, so and a little tsu.
04:01:44 <ihope> Would that be tso, by any chance?
04:02:03 <ihope> Oh, that page details it.
04:02:24 <ihope> In katakana, it's a smile! ツ
04:03:34 <ihope> So is that sort of a "so--"?
04:04:04 <Pikhq> Just using "so" as an interjection.
04:05:00 <ihope> Looks like glottal stop to me.
04:05:48 <Pikhq> It's also used at the end of interjections.
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05:03:09 <bsmntbombdood> what's an algorithm that takes more memory to compute than it takes to verify?
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08:20:45 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: An algorithm cannot take much more memory to compute than to verify, because any verification can be turned into a search algorithm
08:22:01 <oerjan> space complexity is strange that way. are you aware of the NSPACE <= squared SPACE result?
08:22:39 <bsmntbombdood> but you can make the codomain large enough to make brute force impractical
08:24:12 <oerjan> Savitch's theorem was the name
08:24:27 <bsmntbombdood> i'm looking for something with polynomial space verification, exponential space computation and exponential time brute forcing
08:26:14 <oerjan> and how does savitch's theorem not prove that impossible?
08:26:39 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savitch%27s_theorem
08:27:08 <bsmntbombdood> squared space computation would be better than nothing
08:28:10 <oerjan> well, graph reachability (STCON in the article) contains essentially the whole difference
08:29:37 <oerjan> of course like with P=NP there is no known proof that there really is a square difference.
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09:52:36 <oklopol> そっ。 little girl defecating while committing fellatio?
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15:20:06 <oklopol> i asked if it was an emoticon for that
15:44:07 <oklopol> hope you ppl are all here for esoteric _programming_
16:35:32 <Pikhq> でもエステリック語はたのしすぎる、よ。
16:35:49 <Pikhq> (but esoteric spoken languages are too much fun.)
16:37:57 <oklopol> my friends are anime freaks, would be cool to own them in japanese
16:38:34 <Pikhq> Ah, otaku. What fun it is to mess with them. . .
16:39:19 <Pikhq> Sometimes, you don't even need to know more Japanese than what it takes to tell the difference between hiragana, katakana, and kanji to be effective.
16:40:34 <oklopol> i never remember even those
16:40:42 <oklopol> heard them a million times
16:41:02 <Pikhq> Because sometimes otaku will have a shirt saying, say, "オタク" instead of "おたく".
16:41:35 <Pikhq> (katakana should be used for onomatopeia, foreign words, and occasionally for emphasis. Hiragana and kanji are normal for native words)
16:56:39 <oklopol> i don't see the point in that but good for otaku i guess
16:56:57 <oklopol> i mean i don't know what you meant
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17:31:55 <Pikhq> The point being that that's basic knowledge that otaku lack.
17:39:13 <lament> japanese is an esoteric language now?
17:39:46 <lament> i thought it was one of the major lanugages of the world...
17:40:00 <ihope> Is there any context to lament's question that I need to read the logs to see?
17:43:27 <ihope> And I better get learning some actual Japanese.
17:44:07 <ihope> I can still say 猫はパンです just fine.
17:44:43 <ihope> パン is katakana, which is a little weird.
17:45:40 <ihope> And ノテンゴイデア, even though that's not actually Japanese.
17:50:32 <Pikhq> You can say that you are bread?
17:51:11 <Pikhq> And, BTW, パン is a loan word from Portuguese.
17:53:42 <lament> all those characters show up as squares :)
17:53:59 <lament> if they really were squares, it would certainly be a very esoteric language.
17:57:47 <ihope> So it's no coincidence that the roumaji for that is "pan", which is the same as the Spanish word for "bread".
17:58:05 <ihope> lament: you're not Japanese enough, then.
17:58:35 <ihope> "Are you looking for Unicode character U+732B: cat?"
17:59:25 <ihope> Ooh, kJapaneseKun.
17:59:30 <Pikhq> So, you're saying that your *cat* is bread.
17:59:51 <ihope> Is it necessarily my cat?
18:00:09 <ihope> That's "neko wa pan desu", isn't it?
18:00:22 <ihope> No it isn't necessarily mine?
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18:08:50 <lament> <<*(&>*(<>&(*<>&<>)(*<>
18:08:55 <lament> *(<&{#($*<>({({&<>P *(&
18:09:00 <ihope> Convenient roumaji thingy tells me that's "boku ha nihongo o wasure te iru to omou."
18:09:14 <ihope> Of course, that "ha" is probably actually "wa".
18:09:32 <ihope> And of those, I only know what "wa" means.
18:09:55 <Pikhq> "I think I'm forgetting my Japanese".
18:12:37 * ihope throws it at a nearby bd_
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19:58:05 <ihope> Indeed, GregorR's being transient again.
19:58:12 <ihope> Stop being so transient, GregorR!
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20:31:17 <ihope> GregorR: why the transience?
20:47:17 <oerjan> From our birthday, until we die, // Is but the winking of an eye....
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21:23:30 <Pikhq> Gregor, why the Plof errors on stdout instead of stderr?
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23:10:56 * ehird` wonders why 99bob is doing 99->-98
23:15:34 <ehird`> => = dup dup > == or ;;
23:19:20 <oklopol> if that was an equation over =
23:23:26 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/64693
23:23:28 <ehird`> that's the 99bob program
23:23:34 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/64694
23:23:49 <ehird`> this is what => etc are defined as
23:23:52 <ehird`> the rest is pretty obvious
23:23:54 <ehird`> it currently tries to pop from an empty stack in swap
23:26:34 <oklopol> dup dup > == or ;; ==== dup 0 == or ;; ==== (lambda a,b : a or not b), or?
23:27:13 <ehird`> (false is...false, so run pop) true
23:27:27 <ehird`> (true is true, so swap) false true
23:27:56 <oklopol> dup dup > == or ;; works like that?
23:27:57 <ehird`> if pops off IFFALSE, IFTRUE, and COND... you can guess the rest
23:28:10 <ehird`> oklopol: > pops twice and replaces it with true or false
23:28:26 <ehird`> so you might have true false (>, not ==) or false true (==, not >)
23:28:38 <ehird`> =>, of course, is eq-or-gt
23:29:29 <oklopol> why does the swap coma along?
23:30:02 <ehird`> well, visualize what or does with the stacks [true, false], [false, true], [false, false] and [true, true] in your head, using these stack signatures:
23:30:30 <ehird`> if = c t f = result of calling t if c, else result of calling f
23:30:34 <oklopol> okay... now where is there a swap or a pop?
23:30:45 <ehird`> well - in the core implementation
23:30:49 <ehird`> its not hard to figure out what they do
23:30:51 <oklopol> i can't see it in "dup dup > == or ;;"
23:30:59 <ehird`> or = swap [swap pop] [pop] if ;;
23:31:15 <ehird`> it isn't self-hosting ;;)
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23:34:29 <ehird`> C T F if => is C true? if so, call T, otherwise call F
23:34:32 <ehird`> but you know that now :)
23:35:24 <ehird`> look how about i just put the impl online :)
23:35:28 <ehird`> it's ruby though and very ugly
23:35:49 <ehird`> and plenty of the examples i wrote when tired and are hopelessly wrong or just speculation like writing a daemon in it
23:36:11 <oklopol> <ehird`> => = dup dup > == or ;; i mean this one
23:37:14 <ehird`> ah i think it should be
23:37:15 <ehird`> => = dup dup > swap swap == or ;;
23:37:21 <oklopol> a b dup dup > == or ;; ===> a b b > == or ;; ===> a 0 == or ;;
23:37:31 <ehird`> 1 1 -> 1 1 1 1 -> 1 1 false -> 1 false 1 -> false 1 1 -> false true -> true
23:38:12 <ehird`> i'm trying to get a b c d -> a b d c -> a d b c :)
23:38:26 <ehird`> oklopol: which is why i do ==, then or
23:38:36 <ehird`> so if == is true and > is false, true is returned
23:39:05 <ehird`> hmm that dup is wrong yes
23:39:11 <ehird`> i'm meaning 1 2 -> 1 2 1 2
23:40:23 <oklopol> a b -> a b b -> b b a -> b b a a -> b a a b -> b a b a
23:40:23 <ehird`> hrm... i don't think a b c rot = b c a is selfhostedable...better ruby it
23:41:53 <ehird`> programmable in the language itself, not its implementation :)
23:42:04 <ehird`> <= = swap dup rot dup rot rot < rot swap == or ;;
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23:42:44 <oklopol> yeah, i guess you need a way to reach a depth n specified at runtime to make it tc
23:43:00 <ehird`> anyway, what i mean about selfhostedable is - can i define rot using only pop/swap/etc
23:43:05 <ehird`> or is it a "core" thing
23:43:18 <oklopol> never heard, but i got it, yes
23:45:01 <ehird`> == bottles of beer on the wall,
23:45:02 <ehird`> Take one down, pass it around,
23:45:02 <ehird`> ./core.rb:61:in `-': String can't be coerced into Fixnum (TypeError)
23:45:07 <ehird`> i think i need to debug
23:46:02 <oklopol> i think that's a better 99bob
23:46:55 <oklopol> the original is so verbose....
23:47:13 <ehird`> "Equals equals bottles of beer on the wall, equals equals bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, core dot rb 61 in minus string can't be coerced into fixnum typeerror."
23:48:07 <oklopol> == essentially is equals though
23:48:26 <oklopol> but i guess you can have multiple variants
23:49:13 <oklopol> '==' can be said 'equals' and '=' 'assign'
23:49:33 <oklopol> while you can just as well say '==' is 'equals equals' and '=' 'equals'
23:56:27 <ehird`> stack = ["swap", "dup", "rot", "dup", "rot", "rot", ">", "rot", "swap", "==", "==", "=="]
23:56:33 <ehird`> that's all the function calls
00:18:39 <oklopol> i need to have ' and `... where the other should be a lisp quote and the other the same in the other direction
00:18:54 <ehird`> like 'X = X and X` = X?
00:18:58 <oklopol> the other means whatever follows it is a funciton
00:19:12 <oklopol> the other means whatever follows is a value
00:19:15 <ehird`> 'X = X, X` = .... X is a function?
00:19:57 <ehird`> lisp heritage must be respected ;)
00:20:41 <ehird`> hey - that's a good idea, an anti-golf contest
00:20:46 <oklopol> you almost never need to tell manually something is a function
00:20:50 <ehird`> biggest and slowest program you can make e.g. print hello world
00:21:19 <ehird`> heh - it'd certainly be easier to write an anti-golf-helper-bot than a golf-helper-bot that exists...
00:21:27 <oklopol> `4 4 would mean (lambda a:4)(4) if you know python, but that's just sick
00:21:39 <Pikhq> ehird`: Please. . .
00:21:43 <oklopol> where `4 would be the infix funciton
00:21:44 <Pikhq> That's almost too easy.
00:22:08 <Pikhq> Step 1: fix up C2BF a bit.
00:22:12 <ehird`> Pikhq: i like that one on everything2 that makes a random string, checks if its md5 hash is == hworlds, and prints it if so
00:22:18 <Pikhq> Step 2: Get the C++>C compiler working.
00:22:22 <ehird`> apparently it'll take a few hundred years to work
00:22:49 <Pikhq> Step 3: Write a horribly bloated C++ "Hello, world" program using a few classes per character.
00:23:06 <ehird`> Pikhq: i think i hate you
00:23:16 <oklopol> ehird`: your way is better because ' (which is ' on my screen but shouldn't be) is faster to make, and the other one is never really needed
00:23:22 <Pikhq> What? Don't like C++>C>BF compilation?
00:23:46 <oklopol> i have parens, and that would be legal code in this language, but for a different reason
00:24:09 <ehird`> `'`'`''`'`''`'`````skskskskskskk -- is that valid code in your language
00:24:11 <SimonRC> :-) http://www.ninjapirate.com/images/math-of-sex3.gif
00:24:16 <ehird`> because if it is some serious obfuscation could be done
00:24:18 <Pikhq> Maybe shove a C->BF->C compilation stage. . .
00:24:53 <ehird`> Pikhq: heh. while size < huge, compile BF to unoptimized C, compile it with C2BF, repeat
00:25:54 <ehird`> c2bf doesn't work on os x...
00:25:58 <ehird`> compilation fails and ld segfaults
00:26:54 * ehird` wonders what syntax would allow tons of perl code to be run unmodified but do completely different things
00:26:58 <ehird`> probably entirely sigils and ids
00:27:22 <Pikhq> ehird`: Which language do you propose for this anti-golf?
00:27:31 <ehird`> $%<:,{^23}+(*&4)<^; <-- factorial! heh.
00:27:36 <ehird`> Pikhq: um - any i guess
00:27:38 <Pikhq> (please say any. . .)
00:27:51 <Pikhq> Now, how many languages can I pull into this?
00:28:39 <ehird`> oklopol: biggest, slowest program
00:28:47 <Pikhq> For "Hello, world".
00:29:26 <oklopol> slowest... that's kinda stupid cuz anyone can write one that takes a trillion years
00:29:43 <oklopol> unless you have to prove how long it'll take
00:29:46 <Pikhq> Hrm. . . 99bottles/99.{c,perl,py,tcl,b,c++,sh,zsh,csh}, anyone?
00:30:28 <lament> write a short (under X characters), terminating program that takes the most steps.
00:30:54 <Pikhq> The judging should be on style, not size.
00:31:14 <ehird`> write the biggest terminating program that takes the most steps, in the most ugly, hilarious, convuloted, obfuscated-but-not-like-the-ioccc, slowest way
00:31:14 <Pikhq> . . . Realistically though, why bother judging? Just submit some weird-ass code. :p
00:31:56 * ehird` wonders why so many people like brainfuck
00:32:15 <lament> ehird`: largest is easy to write.
00:32:23 <lament> shortest is actually a challenge.
00:32:37 <Pikhq> lament: "Most evil" is more of a challenge.
00:32:42 <ehird`> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/SuperPar now this is nice and evil
00:32:49 <ehird`> i might write my entries in that
00:33:34 <Pikhq> Perhaps a "Hello, World" program which uses C to implement a PESOIX brainfuck interpreter which invokes a server which a different C program accesses?
00:34:20 <Pikhq> s/Unlambda/x86 assembly/
00:34:21 <ehird`> + http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Self-modifying_Brainfuck as the brainfuck dialect
00:34:44 <ehird`> + http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Please_Porige_Hot for....the protocol or something
00:36:52 <SimonRC> 00:29:08 < lament> write a short (under X characters), terminating program that takes the most steps. <--- That is the Busy Beaver problem, and if yu require that the program eventually halt, it isn't computable.
00:37:10 <ehird`> SimonRC: most == most in the competition
00:38:11 <oklopol> SimonRC: the competitors must know how it works, then it's computable
00:39:15 <oklopol> plus given any X > 100 the program will easily take so many steps it will not terminate this lifetime, in pretty much any language
00:39:30 <oklopol> 100 was of course a totally random choise
00:40:21 <oklopol> (might be, dunno that well)
00:40:33 <oklopol> it seems the first thing you do is allocate memory
00:40:42 <oklopol> and... that's pretty much the memory you'll have
00:40:49 <ehird`> Common oriented business language
00:40:59 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBOL
00:41:16 <ehird`> ADD ONE TO OKLOPOL GIVING OKLOPOL
00:41:56 <oklopol> oh... that's not the cobol i've seen
00:42:04 <ehird`> it's a real, serious language.
00:42:12 <ehird`> seriously did you not know about cobol???????
00:42:23 <oklopol> i've read my fathers tutorials from like the sixties
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00:51:50 <oklopol> you're a helpful lot, i just write my question and come up with the answer before even sending it on the channel
00:54:46 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.ninjapirate.com/images/math-of-sex3.gif
00:55:28 <oklopol> ihope: if you don't understand something i say, it's a bad joke
00:57:05 <oklopol> 1 5 3 frombase 10 tobase 5
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01:16:04 <oklopol> which is most reverse-y? '\', '/' or '%'
01:18:42 <oklopol> ah, reverse division, because that char is so rarely used
01:19:05 <oklopol> i like to try to have a reason for every choise
01:19:41 <Pikhq> It just seems reversey, because it's the reverse of everything Unixy except for escapes. . .
01:20:23 <oklopol> can you clarify, i'm not familiar with unix
01:21:19 <Pikhq> Path seperators, for one, are / in Unix.
01:23:44 <oklopol> a\b is map a to list b, and \a is reverse list a... i see the logic there
01:28:13 <oklopol> frombase={:LB->{[]B->0;LB->B*':L+.L}\LB;}
01:28:54 <oklopol> now if i could just get pattern matching ( -> ) be a normal function somehow...
01:29:24 <oklopol> i mean, not have it abide by it's own weird rules
01:29:41 <oklopol> because that's exactly what i try to discourage
01:29:51 <oklopol> ...in this lang, not generally
01:56:12 <oklopol> hehe, i have lisp-like quotes, but for a different reason, plof-like lambda specifiers (: and .), but for a different reason :P
01:56:23 <oklopol> i also had a third one in the same category, but i forgot it
01:56:41 <oklopol> this sounds like a monologue
01:56:52 <oklopol> i promised myself i'd stop doing them :\
02:02:59 <Pikhq> You've got too much creativity. . .
02:03:05 <Pikhq> TO THE PLOF FOR YE!
02:05:30 <oklopol> i haven't yet gotten acquinted (<- fix my word) with plof
02:05:59 <oklopol> is there a graphics library for plof? :P
02:06:12 <Pikhq> Are you willing to make one?
02:06:31 <oklopol> sure, but i can't, since that's not what i do
02:06:43 <oklopol> i mean, i'd love to make one
02:06:44 <Pikhq> If you want to call an existing one, either make a better C calling interface, or use dlcall and friends. . .
02:08:08 <Pikhq> No, it's *current* external call interface is via the dlcall functions.
02:08:27 <oklopol> you're talking to a noob, remember that
02:09:01 <Pikhq> dlcall is a function which lets you dynamicly load libraries and call functions in them.
02:09:09 <Pikhq> Bit of a pain to use.
02:09:36 <oklopol> dlcall("okofok.dll","get_number_4")
02:09:42 <Pikhq> Pull up the man page; you'll see whay fairly soon.
02:10:03 <Pikhq> It's *close*, but more annoying.
02:10:10 <oklopol> well, why not make it like that?
02:10:31 <Pikhq> Because the dlcall functions are pretty much thin wrappers around the C version. . .
02:10:42 <GregorR> Because that would involve a lookup every time you dlcall'd a function.
02:10:52 <GregorR> Which, in a language is inefficient as Plof, is a nonissue :P
02:11:05 <oklopol> this is why you could have new dlcaller("okofok.dll")
02:11:13 <oklopol> if i understood you correctly
02:11:15 <Pikhq> oklopol: That's a lot closer.
02:11:41 <Pikhq> dlopen("file.so");
02:12:08 <oklopol> var a=new dlcaller("okofok.dll");a.call("get_number_4");
02:12:39 <Pikhq> Hmm. Actually, that'd be a fairly easy object to make. . .
02:13:11 <Pikhq> Because I'd rather make a better interface.
02:14:06 <oklopol> it could also have things like a.store_function_as("get_number_2","1"); and then a.call_quick("2") in case that would provide any speedup
02:16:27 <oklopol> assuming ^ is xor, what would that mean for two sets?
02:16:51 <oklopol> | is union, & is intersection
02:18:56 <oklopol> + makes sence for lists, while - doesn't, whereas both make sence for sets, but | can be used for their addition
02:19:22 <oklopol> so... everyone's happy and no distinction need be made between sets and lists
02:38:30 <ihope> So - only sort of makes sense?
02:42:22 <oklopol> agr + r = agrr, agr | r = agr
02:42:49 <oklopol> so lists can be used as sets
03:57:51 <oklopol> it turns out you can actually reset every operator in oklotalk without any harm done... since every operator is essentially just the empty lambda {}
03:58:19 <oklopol> they are just overloaded by everyone
03:58:47 <oklopol> sun is rising... better get some sleep
04:02:33 <ihope> You do sound a little tired.
04:02:48 <ihope> /time to the rescue!
04:04:05 <ihope> Egad. You're seven hours ahead of me, meaning... well, hmm.
04:05:52 <ihope> SEE HOW TIRED YOU ARE? HUH?
04:07:09 <oklopol> i have some ed (energy drink none know) in the fridge
04:07:32 <oklopol> but it might be nice to get _some_ sleep
04:07:58 <oklopol> then again, i will not wake up before 15:00 if i go to sleep now
04:08:10 <oklopol> and if i wait till tonight, i'll sleep the whole sunday
04:10:00 <ihope> Why do you need to not sleep now?
04:10:27 <oklopol> i'm writing a spec for oklotalk... finally decided to begin with it
04:11:06 <oklopol> it's much less fun when i'm not tired
04:11:40 <ihope> So it's much more fun when you're tired.
04:14:48 <oklopol> well, if i'm sleepy tired, it does not work; only 'hehe poo' sleepy is good for programming
04:15:45 <oklopol> it's fun because it's poisonous
04:18:36 <ihope> Contagious, you mean?
04:20:14 <oklopol> have you watched futurama?
04:20:37 <oklopol> i've seen it about three times
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12:25:58 <oklopol> i had a lucid dream i did some serious flooding on this channel
12:26:30 <oklopol> but i had to stop when i suddenly started spinning around in the air
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16:17:05 <Pikhq> I have a dream. . . A dream of a day where BFM has a test suite, so that I can actually figure out which language-specific macros are failing. . .
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17:13:14 * Pikhq now sees that he's got a bug which involves the itoa call. . .
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17:20:44 <Pikhq> What's odd is that there *shouldn't* be anything wrong with that call.
17:22:26 <oerjan> you know you _could_ cheat and include a debug print command
17:23:32 <Pikhq> oerjan: Or I could do lang {printf("%i", random_cell);}
17:24:05 <Pikhq> Only *useful* if the target language is C (which it is ATM). . .
17:24:44 * Pikhq is just getting frustrated that the C backend works, but the C-specific macros don't
17:25:37 <oerjan> have you looked at the C output?
17:27:08 <Pikhq> So far, I've been able to figure out that the issue is not in optimize.tcl
17:29:25 <Pikhq> Nor is the issue in c/copy.bfm or c/move.bfm
17:32:12 <oerjan> well, can you find the first point at which a variable does not have the expected contents?
17:32:37 <Pikhq> c/subvar.bfm is broken.
17:33:44 <Pikhq> Now just to figure out *how* it's broken.
17:34:04 <Pikhq> Ah. Storing in y, not x.
17:36:39 <Pikhq> Seems that I'm also triggering a bug any time that more than two digits are needed from itoa.bfm -_-'
17:36:59 <Pikhq> Specifically, an infinite loop.
17:48:41 <Pikhq> *That* much is broken in my optimization pass.
18:02:05 <Pikhq> Now, if I can just figure out how divvar.bfm and divmod.bfm are borken. . .
18:06:21 <Pikhq> . . . Except that it fails when it goes beyond 128.
18:06:39 <Pikhq> Unless you think that looks like 128 to you.
18:06:59 <oerjan> a remarkable likeness.
18:08:12 * Pikhq blames div(); from stdlib
18:08:41 <oerjan> i note that those characters are just _below_ "0". maybe it is subtracting rather than adding.
18:09:26 <oerjan> indeed they are 48-1, 48-2, 48-8
18:10:16 <oerjan> are you using signed chars?
18:10:23 <Pikhq> I'm using just "char".
18:10:37 <Pikhq> Which can be either signed or unsigned. . .
18:10:49 <Pikhq> It's probably doing a sign change there.
18:12:08 <Pikhq> Any clue what you have to pass to gcc to tell it to treat chars as unsigned?
18:12:19 <Pikhq> (just so I can see if that's what's causing it)
18:12:39 <oerjan> but you can of course replace char by unsigned char
18:14:45 <Pikhq> Hmm. . . Now, what other macros shall I rewrite?
18:15:52 <Pikhq> I'm making some C-specific macros (in stdlib/c/), to take advantage of my new language-specific macros feature; this should allow for faster output code.
18:16:21 * Pikhq should do the same for the interpreter; that's the slowest backend of them all
18:29:51 <Pikhq> Well, the C backend is probably the most efficient one. . .
18:32:36 <Pikhq> Basm takes 0.18 seconds to compile LostKng.b with it.
18:34:02 * SimonRC finds some fake double-RAS-syndrome: "Dynamic DNS Server"
18:34:16 <Pikhq> 0.17s without newlines.
18:34:18 <SimonRC> Pikhq: you ported LK from BFBASIC to BASM?!
18:34:35 <Pikhq> SimonRC: Basm is my Brainfuck compiler.
18:34:41 <Pikhq> And I should rename it.
18:35:00 <SimonRC> Pikhq: Is the source online anywhere?
18:35:33 <Pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.tar.bz2
18:35:45 <Pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2
18:35:56 <Pikhq> (my new BFM improvements will be up as soon as I'm done)
18:36:22 <Pikhq> *That* tarball is up to date, except for the language-specific macros feature (not *needed* for basm; just makes it run faster)
18:37:33 <SimonRC> So, what does it actally do? BF -> C?
18:38:54 <Pikhq> BFM does BFFM->(Brainfuck,C,interpret)
18:39:11 <Pikhq> . . . And apparently, GCC is a friggin' memory hog when it tries to compile LostKng.c
18:39:24 <SimonRC> # I'm going to rise and dawn // with no clothes on // and colours on my skin. // Colours of life and love // from heaven above // absolve me of my sin. #
18:39:40 <SimonRC> Pikhq: could be the interference graphs that do it.
18:39:54 <SimonRC> -- "Ode to Crayola" by Lemon Demon
18:40:09 <Pikhq> SimonRC: Um, why would that matter? -O0. . .
18:44:08 <SimonRC> what is the difference between the "-1" files and the "0" files
18:47:46 <Pikhq> basm.-1.b and basm.0.b were compiled with different assumptions for what EOF iis.
18:48:12 <Pikhq> basm.0.b assumes EOF=0 or no change, and the code it outputs provide for that.
18:48:45 <Pikhq> I bet the issue with my memory-hogging compiler is just that 4.1 is a bit more memory-using.
18:49:39 <Pikhq> Mmkay, gcc-3.4.6 is using a lot of memory as well, but it's not thrashing.
18:49:41 <SimonRC> If it becomes inconvinient, you could try asking the devs.
18:49:50 <Pikhq> . . . And it finished in 30 seconds.
18:49:57 <SimonRC> gcc should support generated code as well as human-written stuff
18:50:05 <Pikhq> SimonRC: I spent 5 minutes trying to get gcc-4.1.2 to stop.
18:50:22 <Pikhq> It was thrashing that damned much.
18:50:29 <Pikhq> (and I've got 1G of RAM)
18:50:33 <SimonRC> Pikhq: you could try making major lops into their own subroutines.
18:51:07 <Pikhq> Sorry, but I'd rather not do that *in Brainfuck*.
18:51:27 <SimonRC> Well, if your compiler wasn't written in BF, admittedly it would be sensible.
18:51:47 <Pikhq> Of course, I think the issue lies more in GCC.
18:51:55 * SimonRC contemplates writing one in Haskell.
18:52:07 <Pikhq> Honestly. . . 700MB RAM for 2MB of code?!?
18:52:55 <SimonRC> Maybe it's trying to analyse the array usage to see if it can do some of it in registers.
18:53:16 <Pikhq> . . . But *why* do that for -O0?!?
18:53:31 <SimonRC> seriously, ask the devs if they know what is making it do that, and if you can turn it off
18:54:03 <SimonRC> I think using 700MB of RAM for a 2MB file at -O0 counts as a bug.
18:54:33 <SimonRC> depends what -O0 actually does.
18:54:51 <SimonRC> or rather, how optimisations get turned off
18:55:19 <SimonRC> if (e.g.) it is building data-flow graphs then throwing them away again, -O0 won't help memry usage much
18:56:26 <GregorR> Um ... it depends on what that 2MB of code is doing.
18:56:44 <Pikhq> GregorR: It's a somewhat naive translation of LostKng.b into C
18:56:57 <Pikhq> Whole lot of pointer arithmetic.
18:56:58 <GregorR> Why not just use EgoBFC? ;)
18:57:10 <Pikhq> Because then I wouldn't be testing my *own* compiler.
19:08:51 <oklopol> oerjan: what's a "speech" in norwegian? or if anyone knows swedish, in that.
19:09:45 <oklopol> hmm... you don't happen to know what it is in swedish? :P
19:11:31 <oerjan> actually i think swedish is "tal"
19:12:38 <oklopol> well, i don't think it makes that much difference... i'm not that good
19:13:22 <oerjan> the swedish is neuter, the norwegian is masculine
19:16:05 <oklopol> en / ett, but masculine, neuter and feminine
19:16:46 <oerjan> i don't think swedish has masculine/feminine distinction
19:17:15 <oerjan> norwegian: en (m), ei (f), et (n)
19:17:37 <oklopol> and i though you have just two articles
19:18:50 <oerjan> no but the feminine is relatively rare in bokml
19:20:09 <oerjan> in the most conservative forms they use en for that too
19:21:33 <oerjan> (but still with -a definite ending unless it is even more conservative)
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20:38:31 * SimonRC wonders WTF ever one of his windows processes has a PID that is a multiple of 4
20:38:39 <SimonRC> XP, in case you were wondering
20:40:57 <ihope_> If one of the PIDs weren't a multiple of 4, that process could obviously hack into your system and destroy everything.
20:41:52 <ihope_> See, there's always a process with a PID of 4, maybe, so PID arithmetic would allow such a process to attain a PID of 1, which is omnipotent.
20:42:06 <ihope_> Actually, 2 and 3 are omnipotent as well. But 4 isn't, which is why they chose that.
20:42:38 <oerjan> i note that some of the processes clearly have specially assigned numbers
20:47:16 <oerjan> i just cannot believe that.
20:48:37 <SimonRC> kill it and re-start, to see if it gets the same PID
20:50:31 * Pikhq should learn asm. . .
20:50:48 <oerjan> whoops, you were right, now it is 2880
20:52:10 <SimonRC> # Go and fake your death ok? // 'Cause I am not here I am not here. #
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21:06:20 <SimonRC> [[j$++=]~{f2%}@a2@a1@a0!!~]&a,.
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21:27:24 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: a lucid dream and the best you can do is irc?
21:28:33 <oerjan> "ok, let me first check on the irc channels..."
21:29:17 <oklopol> basically i flew around, had sex, killed people and woke up for a few minutes at random, but at some point i wasn't really sure whether i was asleep or not, so i thought i'd flood a bit to have proof later
21:30:07 <oerjan> i _think_ it might have been an idea to do the proof thing before you started killing people :D
21:30:30 <oklopol> flying was the only unrealistic thing i could do
21:30:42 <oklopol> i knew that because i was in a place i'
21:30:51 <oklopol> in the middle of the night
21:31:07 <oklopol> whereas i could easily have woken up in the night and been in my room
21:32:27 <oklopol> once i had this lucid dream that just kept on going for hours, or so it seemed, every time i woke up, something came and killed me, and i couldn't wake up for real
21:33:16 <oklopol> and this other time i sat around a table while dinosaur played card there... and tried to wake up but couldn'y
21:33:24 <oklopol> i could write a book about my dreams
21:34:24 <oerjan> i used to have dreams about trying to wake up but not so much nowadays
21:35:01 <bsmntbombdood> the other night i had a dream with at least 5 levels of recursion
21:35:47 <oklopol> heh, the best one was so long that when i woke up i took a one hour long walk just to be sure i was awake :)
21:35:49 <Pikhq> var dream = :{dream();}
21:36:06 <bsmntbombdood> falling asleep inside the dream and having another dream
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22:11:47 <SimonRC> with lucid dreaming you can fly
22:12:14 <Pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Sure, thanks to the Brothers Wright.
22:13:23 <SimonRC> I can kinda do it, but not at will, and I lack the skill to go on for mare than about 10 perceived second without waking up.
22:13:42 <SimonRC> thinking about it all the time
22:13:59 <SimonRC> my instincts tell me that Cosmic Ordering would be very effective
22:14:02 <bsmntbombdood> i've had one lucid dream, but i got woken up about 2 seconds into it
22:14:08 <oklopol> SimonRC: i usually wake up as well, once i realize it's a dream
22:14:27 <oklopol> it's rare that it lasts long
22:14:43 <SimonRC> maybe maybe maybe you must plan what you are going to do to stop yourself getting over-excited and waking up#
22:15:15 <oklopol> or do like me and drink so much caffeine you can't fall asleep and still try to
22:15:37 <SimonRC> (BTW, Cosmic Ordering is named after the type of ordering that ne does in, say, a restaurant, rather than being orderly.)
22:15:51 <SimonRC> oklopol: nah, I just get weird dreams then
22:16:23 <oklopol> guess it varies... there are many ways ppl say you get lucid dreams for sure
22:16:31 <oklopol> but they all require a change in lifestyle
22:16:48 <oklopol> and daily routines something
22:21:23 <SimonRC> I was following the advice on Everything2
22:21:35 <SimonRC> or rather, that of which that I could recall
22:22:11 <SimonRC> And, as in many ares of my life, the bits that I can recall are really just the ones I believed already.
22:22:39 <SimonRC> Godsdamnit that feeling of things slipping away from me when I disagree with them is so annoying.
22:23:13 <SimonRC> I read an opinion contrary to mind, and within a few hours, I can remember barely any of it.
22:23:38 <SimonRC> If I read an opinion I agree with, I can recall it much better.
22:24:11 <SimonRC> Maybe this happens to almost everyone in the world, but most of them don't notice it...
22:24:18 <SimonRC> That would explain a lot of things.
22:25:44 <oerjan> Of course, I already believed that.
22:26:26 <oerjan> Or rather, i was assuming people usually don't notice things they don't believe in in the first place.
22:28:31 <SimonRC> Does not apply to the really obvious stuff, of course, but Adams and PTerry were only exaggerating a bit.
22:31:16 <oerjan> but then on another level i also believe some things don't physically happen to people who don't believe them.
22:37:14 * oerjan starts wondering if anyone even saw his last comment :D
22:55:17 <Pikhq> http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/Pickover/pc/cnn_shuttle.jpg
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23:41:35 <ehird`> (speed of light in a vacuum)^(speed of light in a vacuum)
23:42:54 <ehird`> but big if you're moving at that speed!
23:43:14 <SimonRC> :-S http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/278240458.html
23:43:45 <oerjan> if that ^ is supposed to be exponentiation, then that is a dimension error
23:45:16 <SimonRC> and usually integral, for the units' sake
23:45:22 <oklopol> nothing beats making a trivia bot and watching it own
23:45:54 <SimonRC> (^) :: (Num a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
23:45:58 <ehird`> nothing beats making a stupid idiotic chatting bot and watching it run on itself
23:46:23 <ehird`> and hoping it enters an infinite loop soon
23:46:29 <SimonRC> did you put it on #debain-flame
23:46:35 <oklopol> markov chains are the best non preprogrammed bots i've seen
23:46:35 <bsmntbombdood> Wet, linty, and stupid is no way to start your day.
23:46:48 <ehird`> (maybe i'll cheat - "repeat this phrase" = "repeat this phrase")
23:46:56 <SimonRC> #debian-flame doesn't exist, but it fits their naming scheme and conversational topics
23:46:56 <oklopol> SimonRC: quakenet and a finnish channel
23:46:56 <ehird`> and often requests to say "repeat this phrase"
23:47:24 <oklopol> except i don't think that was for me
23:48:08 <bsmntbombdood> and where are the "topless picture posting hotties"?
23:48:44 <ehird`> "Why dont the IRC:s comply with Macintosh or is this problem occurring with my comp. only?"
23:52:06 <ihope_> What's this Macintosh compliance all about?
23:52:16 <Pikhq> bsmntbombdood: The units on your c^c is, of course, 1 (lightyear/year)^(lightyear/year). . . Which is, of course, a fairly large unit.
23:53:50 <oerjan> large compared to what?
23:54:25 <oerjan> hint: you need something of the same unit to compare with
23:56:55 <ihope_> What if c is actually very, very small?
23:57:15 <oerjan> every relativistic physicist knows that c = 1 :)
00:11:00 <Pikhq> oerjan: Only if you define your measurements in terms of light's motion in a certain unit of time over that unit of time.
00:11:28 <Pikhq> If you use the metric system, then you get a wildly different integer. ;)
00:14:27 <oerjan> um, planck's constant is independent of c
00:15:24 <oklopol> shut up you! i know a big word
00:16:03 <oerjan> the reason to use c = 1 is that it makes all the relativistic formulas simpler
00:26:22 <Pikhq> The reason not to use c = 1 is that it makes all humanly obtainable speeds simpler. ;)
00:35:18 <ihope_> What, speeds near c aren't humanly obtainable?
00:35:29 <ihope_> You just need energy loans, that's all.
00:35:54 <ihope_> Hawking radiation or something.
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00:46:16 <oerjan> Ask the First Interstellar Bank
00:47:08 <SimonRC> ICBA to report it, as they want a Bugzilla account
00:49:17 <oerjan> bugzilla accounts will be the death of open source
00:50:16 <SimonRC> Follow the instructions very carefully to see if *your* browser has this semi-bug http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/~sc/tmp/test.html
00:54:45 <oerjan> one of the advantages to using IE is that i can simply assume i have all bugs in existence, and not worry about checking
00:55:01 <SimonRC> Although the chapter and verse I quoted doesn't actually say that is the wrong behaviour, it certainly implies it is a little too simple for a web-browser.
00:56:09 <SimonRC> I could use this to write a webpage, that when you recursively follow all links in one user-agent, you get an exponential blopwup, but in another user-agent you don't.
00:56:53 <SimonRC> It would link back to itself lots of times with random variations on the link-back URL that *shouldn't* change its meaning.
00:57:03 <SimonRC> dynamically-generated, of course
00:57:08 * bsmntbombdood wants a gyrotheodolite and an optical distance meter
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01:03:43 <SimonRC> moved it to: http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/~sc/fxbug/test.html
01:04:18 <SimonRC> interestingly, I only found *that* because of a Hoogle bug. :-S
01:05:03 <SimonRC> Is there a name for the phenomenon of a bug exposing another bug?
01:12:03 <oklopol> well.. you'd expect them to respect each other more than that
01:12:46 <oerjan> there is no honor among bugs
01:14:41 * oklopol is the creator of all that is good and cappuccino
01:16:51 <ihope_> oklopol: pff. Nothing is both good and cappuccino.
01:17:31 <oklopol> you don't like cappuccino 8|
01:18:05 <oklopol> if you don't like it, you haven't tasted my special lidl-microwave bake!
01:18:16 <ihope_> Hmm... maybe I should have said "Isn't 'good and cappuccino' redundant?"
01:19:10 <oklopol> so you only parse syntactically what we say and create clever answers by swapping words?
01:19:43 <oklopol> well, i guess some mix in some semantics
01:22:07 <bsmntbombdood> hot damn, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hollow_dollar.jpg
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01:50:46 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: that wouldn't be accepted by a machine, of course
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01:52:32 <SimonRC> "ZOMG! I accidentally put the secret microfilm in a vending machine"
02:29:50 * SimonRC sings _The Ultimate Showdown Of Ultimate Destiny_ in the style of Tom Lehrer.
03:12:21 * SimonRC contemplates pointer-free datastructures.
03:13:13 <SimonRC> They're not actually any worse than linearly-typed data, apart from the copying time, and theproblem of having enough space to expand the datastructure.
03:17:40 <SimonRC> pointer-free trees might not be to bad...
03:18:40 <SimonRC> tree = [A=label][B=left subtree][C=right subtree][length of ABC]
03:19:59 <SimonRC> an empty tree would have a special label field.
03:20:34 <SimonRC> you might want a way to skip to the middle too...
03:20:42 <SimonRC> i.e. look at the right subtree
03:21:18 <SimonRC> this would be optimised for lookup and linear traversal of course, but in the latter case it would do *fantastic* things to the cache.
03:23:36 <SimonRC> this is most definitely an esoteric programming topic.
03:26:30 <SimonRC> It will go fater than anything else possibly can, as long as you traverse it correctly.
03:26:43 <bsmntbombdood> it makes more sense to have length at the begining for a tree
03:26:59 <SimonRC> or rather, as long as your algorithm requireds the right sort of traversal.
03:27:22 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: quite possibly, but you'd have to backpatch it.
03:27:43 <SimonRC> I suppose you will want pointers in your algorithms
03:28:06 <SimonRC> maybe array indices are enough...
03:28:54 <bsmntbombdood> you can't put anything in the right subtree untill you find how long the left one is
03:33:43 <SimonRC> sometimes that is how you generate the data
03:34:06 <SimonRC> this type of things isn't universally applicable, but it might be perfect sometimes
03:34:23 <SimonRC> consider for example this usenet post: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.development/msg/62df77aa41921dda
03:34:59 <SimonRC> the major datastructures in his program have almost no pointers at all (inteheir interfacse at least)
03:35:16 <SimonRC> he claims this makes things easier to debug, and I am sure it does
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05:39:31 * Pikhq may very well have came up with a replacement name for BFM and BASM. . .
05:39:55 <Pikhq> PEBBLE: Practical Esoteric Brainfuck-Based Language, Eh?
05:40:17 <Pikhq> PFUCK: Pebble's Fucked Up Compiler, Kay?
05:46:41 <Pikhq> It's better than conflicting with a different esolang.
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17:29:15 <SimonRC> # Get out there and dance like an idiot #
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19:52:38 * bsmntbombdood is starting "the uberman's sleep schedule": http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/4/15/103358/720
19:53:52 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood.employmentStatus()
19:56:59 <SimonRC> if it works, it looks like a brilliant but somewhat brittle hack
20:01:00 <SimonRC> so much stuff makes sense if one considers the human body to be a craply-designed system
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20:12:13 <ehird`> maybe it's the computers that are craply-designed
20:12:52 <Pikhq> pikhq.employmentStatus() == false;but pikhq.desiredEmploymentStatus() == true
20:13:43 * Pikhq should read kuro5hin more. . . Ben a few months.
20:14:14 <ehird`> pikhq.setEmploymentStatus(pikhq.desiredEmploymentStatus())
20:14:55 <SimonRC> # 9 out of 10 sociopaths agree // you've gotta see Hyakugojyuuichi #
20:15:14 <Pikhq> ehird`: Function "setEmploymentStatus" in pikhq (inherited from class person) can only be accessed by someone of class employer.
20:15:46 <Pikhq> SimonRC: Why should I see 151, exactly?
20:15:51 <ehird`> employer.new().classEval { pikhq.setEmploymentStatus(pikhq.desiredEmploymentStatus()); }
20:15:56 <Pikhq> And what the hell is it, anyways?
20:16:45 <Pikhq> ehird`: employer can only be constructed via another member of class employer, or by forcesOfTheFreeMarket().
20:18:05 <ehird`> forcesOfTheFreeMarket().classEval { employer.new().classEval { pikhq.setEmploymentStatus(pikhq.desiredEmploymentStatus()); } }
20:18:26 <SimonRC> I could explain if you really want
20:18:40 <Pikhq> I really, really want to know what the hell it is.
20:18:49 <Pikhq> ehird`: Curiosity killed the cat.
20:19:18 <Pikhq> ehird`: forcesOfTheFreeMarket() may only be called by the system administrator, which you are not.
20:19:33 <ehird`> Pikhq: Hyakugojyuuichi = one of the first animutations (which is a warped style of animation)
20:19:48 <ehird`> that line = a line from Hyakugojyuuichi 2003, which is a vanity song 2 years later by... the same maker.
20:19:55 <SimonRC> The line is from a song about it, which in turn has it's own animutation :-S
20:20:02 <ehird`> Pikhq: sudo forcesOfTheFreeMarket().classEval { employer.new().classEval { pikhq.setEmploymentStatus(pikhq.desiredEmploymentStatus()); } }
20:20:54 <Pikhq> You will be reported to God@universe.
20:21:11 <ehird`> fastpwdcrack root > pwd
20:21:15 <Pikhq> SimonRC: Blegh. Me no like animutation
20:21:22 <Pikhq> ehird`: Hello, World!
20:22:08 <Pikhq> Message from God@universe (1:20 MST, May 27, 2007):
20:22:13 <ehird`> sudo logrm sudo-logs <pwd && sudo forcesOfTheFreeMarket().classEval { employer.new().classEval { pikhq.setEmploymentStatus(pikhq.desiredEmploymentStatus()); } } <pwd
20:22:13 <Pikhq> Don't make me smite you.
20:22:30 <ehird`> sudo kill God@universe <pwd
20:22:37 <Pikhq> Message from God@universe (1:21 MST, May 27, 2007):
20:22:47 <Pikhq> Alright. That's enough.
20:22:57 <Pikhq> Message from universe:
20:23:00 <SimonRC> Pikhq: me neither, but the songs by the artist are good
20:23:02 <Pikhq> You have been smote.
20:23:02 <ehird`> ^Clogout^D^D^D^D^D^Dlogout^Clogout
20:23:29 * Pikhq thinks it's a stupid form of animation
20:23:50 <Pikhq> Of course, Lemon Demon has proven that he can do better stuff, so he is redeemed in my book.
20:24:30 <ehird`> trapezoid/"deporitaz" is painful to the ears.
20:24:34 <ehird`> (pre-lemondemon lemondemon)
20:24:56 <SimonRC> his non-wordy stuff can be good
20:26:25 <SimonRC> "<ehird`> word. y." <--- ???
20:26:43 <ehird`> <SimonRC> his non-wordy stuff can be good
20:27:17 <SimonRC> ITYM "werd", which is the more usual spelling of the expression of sgreement.
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21:49:53 <bsmntbombdood> given log(a), calculate log(a+1) without storing exp(log(a))
21:51:17 <oerjan> should be possible to give a series
21:55:35 <bsmntbombdood> log(2) + log(a)/2 + log(a)**2/8 + log(a)**4/192 + ...
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21:57:53 <bsmntbombdood> not sure what the general form of the denomiators is
21:58:42 <oerjan> you should be able to find them with differentiation
21:59:18 <oerjan> presumably that is the Taylor series for log(exp(a)+1)
21:59:47 <oerjan> *log(exp(x)+1) with x = log(a)
22:01:37 <oerjan> derivative exp(x)/(exp(x)+1)
22:01:46 * Pikhq curses at the PEBBLE interpreter. . .
22:02:17 <Pikhq> Currently, I've got it saying that 3%10==111
22:03:48 <oerjan> after you renamed it PEBBLE, it obviously started calculating with roman numerals
22:04:14 <oerjan> i gave you the first derivative
22:04:47 <Pikhq> Works if I turn off -O 2
22:05:25 <Pikhq> Which, of course, defeats the purpose, since it's -O 2 I want working before I release.
22:06:17 <oerjan> maybe it is doing some wrong aliasing assumptions?
22:06:40 <oerjan> that would be very easy when you are dealing with a bf tape
22:06:53 <Pikhq> I bet it's the damned language-specific macros breaking something.
22:07:14 <Pikhq> Just got the C collection working, so I moved on, and I'm running into the same issues.
22:10:56 * Pikhq gets the feeling he'd be better off removing the interpreter backend, and just make the -lang interpret target call a seperate Brainfuck interpreter
22:13:01 <Pikhq> . . . Ah. Found it.
22:13:04 <Pikhq> (and me == stupid)
22:14:05 <Pikhq> I managed to evaluate (3/10)%10, somehow.
22:14:37 <oerjan> hm... exp(x)/(exp(x)+1) = 1/(1+exp(-x)), might be easier
22:17:41 <oerjan> d^n(1/(1+y))/dy^n = (-1)^n * n! / (1+y)^(n+1) or something close to it
22:20:05 * oerjan might do this quicker if he had a computer algebra system
22:22:08 <oerjan> anyway then you use the chain rule with exp(-x) and the product rule
22:36:20 <oerjan> With u = exp(-x), f(y)=1/(1+y), I get (u^n)' = -n*u^n, and d[u^n*f^('n)(u)]/dx = -n*u^n*f^('n)(u) - u^(n+1)*f^('n+1)(u)
22:37:41 <oerjan> which actually seems to give a simple recursion
22:38:51 <oerjan> since the power of u and number of differentiations of f is always the same
22:40:31 <oerjan> actually i don't use what f is in that part
22:42:10 <oerjan> i said already that (log(exp(x)+1)' = exp(x)/(exp(x)+1), which is = 1/(1+exp(-x)) if you divide by exp(x) in both numerator and denominator
22:50:45 <oerjan> now we think of this as a linear combination of terms of the form u^n*f^('n)(u), then derivation multiplies with a matrix with -n on the main diagonal and -1 just below it
22:53:57 <oerjan> now for x = 0, u = 1 and f^('n)(1) = (-1)^n * n! / 2^(n+1)
23:25:01 <SimonRC> Have you ever had one of hose arguments that feels like (bad analogy coming up):
23:25:54 <SimonRC> The person on the other side might be stating that the moon landings were faked, or might be stating that the moon itself is fake, and it is unclear which.
23:25:58 <oerjan> whoops. bsmntbombdood, you sure the sign in front of log(a)**4/192 is right?
23:26:29 <SimonRC> And you are struggling to get him to state the former, because you can't quite beleive that anyone would beleive the latter.
23:27:58 <oerjan> good. then my method gives the right coefficients.
23:28:42 <oerjan> no, more complicated, you need to do the recursion too
23:29:32 <oerjan> to find the coefficient for each n
23:31:30 <oerjan> ah, they are not all reciprocals. - log(a)**8 * 17/645120
23:32:04 <SimonRC> oerjan: what is the pattern?
23:33:32 <oerjan> it's quite complicated. they start out small but eventually i think the factorial becomes dominant.
23:35:11 <oerjan> [1 % 2,1 % 8,0 % 1,(-1) % 192,0 % 1,1 % 2880,0 % 1,(-17) % 645120,0 % 1,31 % 14515200,0 % 1,(-691) % 3832012800,0 % 1,5461 % 5115781120,0 % 1,(-929569) % 64134053888,0 % 1,(-3202291) % 3593732096,0 % 1,221930581 % 16817061888,0 % 1,(-4722116521) % 2090860544,0 % 1,968383680827 % 12415139840,0 % 1,(-14717667114151) % 7415529472,0 % 1,2093660879252671 % 11005853696,0 % 1,86125672563201181 % 5637144576,0 % 1]
23:35:36 <SimonRC> do you have a formula for them?
23:35:48 <oerjan> the only easy part is that every second one is 0
23:38:11 <oerjan> oh and of course there is a division by factorial in there, so the derivatives are even larger
23:38:53 <SimonRC> what happens if you adjust them to all have the same numerator?
23:41:04 <SimonRC> ah, I'm not the only one...
23:41:33 <oerjan> darn Hugs is buggy with big calculations
23:41:54 <oklopol> heh, i usually assume they are stupid, and turns out i'm wrong
23:42:24 <SimonRC> oerjan: are you using Int or Integer?
23:42:46 <SimonRC> that shouldn't be a problem
23:43:07 <SimonRC> oerjan: Try *proving* it has a bug.
23:43:31 <oerjan> oh that is obvious. the output is messed up.
23:43:41 <oklopol> "assuming they are stupid" is one of the two options
23:44:00 <oerjan> i think it is the memory bug that has been discussed on the hugsbugs list
23:44:26 <oerjan> but there hasn't been a new release since it was fixed
23:45:44 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: give details
23:46:06 <oerjan> i'll paste my algorithm
23:46:20 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: why DSLs are so good right now
23:46:49 <bsmntbombdood> because haskell doesn't have symbolic differentiation built in
23:48:20 <bsmntbombdood> after removing the n! part, all the denominators are powers of 2
23:48:43 <oerjan> yes, of course they are
23:49:37 <oerjan> http://pastebin.ca/514838
23:50:12 <oerjan> the derivatives are all linear combinations of (-1)^n * fact n / 2^(n+1)
23:52:33 <SimonRC> I think we should get rid of the 1/2 at the beginning
23:54:31 * SimonRC boggles at the speed of Haskell's numeric library
23:54:49 <SimonRC> It is printing out numbers at amazing speed
23:57:49 <oerjan> anyway dL and dLn calculate the recursive coefficients i mentioned earlier
23:58:30 <SimonRC> what do the arguments mean?
23:58:54 <SimonRC> it means the wand has one chatge left and has never been rechargeds
23:58:56 <oerjan> (0:l) is l with a 0 prepended
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00:07:07 <oerjan> if g is a function that is a linear combination of u^n*f^('n)(u) terms, and l are the coefficients, then dL l is the list of coefficients for g'
00:08:14 <oerjan> dLn n then calculates the list of coefficients for d^n(f(u))/dx^n
00:09:51 <oerjan> and f1 n = d^n(f(u))/dx^n | x=0
00:13:06 <bsmntbombdood> maybe this series expansion isn't the best way to go
00:13:52 <oerjan> well the best way to go is obviously the one you ruled out at the outset :)
00:17:16 <oerjan> the second best is to cheat by using exp(log(a)+pi) or something
00:18:32 <oerjan> perhaps something with hyperbolic functions...
00:19:11 <bsmntbombdood> maybe combining the taylor serieses for log(x+1) and exp(x)
00:20:09 <oerjan> um, then you are calculating exp(x).
00:20:59 <bsmntbombdood> this is all for a floating point library without floating point
00:25:50 <SimonRC> If working by hand, I would make some tables.
00:26:11 <SimonRC> I think you could abbreviate them quite well
00:33:24 <bsmntbombdood> that's pretty useless, i can't figure out the pattern in the numerators to go with it
00:36:31 <oerjan> if you do f(u) = 1/(1+a*u), you can at least do the same as in the haskell program
00:51:43 <oklopol> random channel, random words.
00:52:21 <oklopol> i've got school in 5 hours
00:52:39 <bsmntbombdood> we don't kneed know water let the motherfucker burn?
00:52:56 <oklopol> i can't sleep and i don't have a clue about integration
00:53:08 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: my thoughts exactly
00:54:28 <bsmntbombdood> i bet you know enough about integration to pass the test, assuming high school
00:54:57 <oklopol> i passed the advanced integration course already
00:55:08 <oklopol> got the worst grade though
00:55:34 <oklopol> but i'll prolly fall asleep on the test or sleep over it
00:56:55 <oklopol> <bsmntbombdood> i bet you know enough about integration to pass the test, assuming high school <<< how can you possibly assume that=
00:57:54 <Pikhq> oklopol: I'd help you with integration, but 5 hours?
00:58:12 <oklopol> i know the basics... just never really integrated anything
00:58:25 <oklopol> i did my first integrals in the advanced integration test
00:58:43 <oklopol> and... helped a friend integrate something half a year ago
00:59:25 <oklopol> we can have all the formulas in the test... but i've lost the book they're in
01:00:25 <oklopol> i also have no idea about where my calculator is... since i've only used it for programmin "pong" and a snake game
01:00:49 <Pikhq> You should've learnt integration a few weeks ago, at least.
01:01:08 <oklopol> i read some examples from my math book
01:01:28 <Pikhq> You're still screwed.
01:02:11 <oklopol> i might remember something, i've been awake on _some_ lessons
01:02:23 * oklopol looks for his calculator now
01:04:35 <oklopol> i don't remember when i last found anything by looking for it... guess it's no use
01:07:02 <oklopol> i also have no idea where my bus card is... so i pay 5 euros to be able to fail a test
01:07:17 <oklopol> whine whine, i'll search some more
01:10:36 <oklopol> my java program was failed at the university :)
01:10:52 <oklopol> apparently my documentation was no good
01:11:24 <SimonRC> that sort of thing matters in the real world
01:11:41 <oklopol> yeah, i hate the real world
01:12:51 <oklopol> i had about 15 pages of documentation, the problem was i used too much finglish
01:13:17 <oklopol> and i referred to other parts of the documentation instead of copy pasting
01:15:17 <oklopol> perhaps i'll just watch futurama and drink coffe for a few hours and forget my troubles
01:32:26 <bsmntbombdood> aren't you supposed to drink liquor to forget your troubles
01:35:57 <oklopol> i don't have any, and i'm actually going to go to the test,
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03:41:32 <GregorR-L> Blah blah bleh wobble wobble wipp mottleblaff morklebam.
03:54:57 <Pikhq> Now you know how I feel.
03:56:33 <Pikhq> oklopol: My brain is not available for donation.'
03:57:33 <Pikhq> GregorR-L: Any good at calculus?
03:58:26 <Pikhq> It's been a few weeks since I had my calc final.
03:58:41 <Pikhq> (and, therefore, it's still not up for recall. Won't be for another month or so)
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05:02:08 <oklopol> i feel so refreshened, i'm pretty sure it compensates my having no calculator
05:02:28 <oklopol> whereas sentence is that to be
05:02:54 <bsmntbombdood> you slept for just a few hours and you feel refreshened?
05:03:27 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i'll zombify in a few hours
05:03:45 <GregorR-L> Must ... resist ... urge ... to post zombie picture ...
05:04:19 <oklopol> okay, now where do calculators like spending time at?
05:06:03 <Pikhq> They like spending time in the parser and the lexer.
05:07:48 <oklopol> almost tripped on my math book and found it
05:07:58 <oklopol> now if i could just trip on the calculator too...
05:08:27 <oklopol> (walking here is constant tripping without the lights on)
05:11:19 <oklopol> hmm... hope i can still write keyboardlessly
05:12:16 <oklopol> the tests are on 6 week intervals, plenty of time to forget
05:13:27 <oklopol> that fucking K has almost all advantages of oklotalk... how dare it
05:13:50 <oklopol> except for my unbelievable object system, which is not yet fully created
05:16:30 <oklopol> because it's the grim truth
05:17:25 <oklopol> in most cases, oklotalk loses by a few characters :<
05:18:15 <oklopol> my operators are so overloaded, that oklotalk squeezes everything tighter, but right-to-left just seems to solve everything with less parens
05:18:55 <oklopol> plus, K differentiates between high-order functions and normal ones, which means oklotalk needs quoting
05:20:23 <oklopol> these two things aren't problems with longer programs of course, because naming a variable removes the need for quoting (for unbelievable reasons.) and evaluation order can be changed in O(1) characters
05:21:17 <oklopol> once again, i managed to fail deduction... K differentiates -> it needs no quoting, oklotalk does not -> it does need quoting
05:21:52 <oklopol> at least i think K does that, i assumed it did not have first-class functions... and was wrong
05:23:03 <oklopol> AND WHY ARE FUNCTIONS DEFINED BY ASSIGNING LAMBDAS TO VARIABLES IN PLOF AND K... THAT WAS ORIGINALLY MY IDEA, THEY STOLE IT
05:23:24 <oklopol> (press any key to continue monologue...)
05:24:02 <Pikhq> oklopol: Plof predates your language.
05:24:27 <Pikhq> And Lisp, which does the same thing, predates you. :p
05:24:30 <oklopol> K predates plof by about 10 years
05:24:45 <oklopol> common lisp does not do that
05:24:58 <oklopol> yes yes, as i said, i'm aware of all this
05:25:06 <Pikhq> I never stated which one.
05:25:12 <oklopol> in fact, i'm aware of pretty much everything
05:25:48 <Pikhq> Tell me, exactly how fast is PFUCK when compiled with my current PEBBLE build?
05:26:12 <oklopol> plus, i wouldn't count on plof predating my language
05:27:20 <oklopol> though mine was just a vague idea for the first years
05:27:52 <GregorR-L> oklopol: It only exists once more than one person know about it.
05:29:15 * Pikhq stands at PFUCK, damned impressed. . .
05:29:23 <oklopol> that, actually, was one of my predicates for existance when i once started wondering whether i've ever had a girlfriend
05:29:27 <Pikhq> It compiles LostKng.b. . . In 0.217 seconds.
05:29:39 <oklopol> ...turns out i had had her, based on exactly that
05:32:46 <Pikhq> 1261% improvement in speed? I think I can accept that.
05:53:31 <Pikhq> Let me bring to you, the new, the shiny, the renamed!
05:53:42 <Pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble-1.0-preview.tar.bz2
05:53:51 <Pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pfuck-1.0.tar.bz2
05:55:05 <Pikhq> (I still need a test suite and figure out what the Makefile should look like before I make pebble a 1.0 release)
05:55:31 <Pikhq> (. . . and update the documentation (pulled out of the tarball, under the theory that erroneous documentation is worse than none))
06:01:17 <Pikhq> Don't all scream like fangirls at once, now.
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06:09:41 <Pikhq> SuperAussieEvil shalt play with the newly renamed, newly release PEBBLE and PFUCK.
06:09:49 <Pikhq> s/release/released/
06:11:05 <Pikhq> . . . Not going to respond?
06:11:53 <Pikhq> Who just released new builds of what were once BFM and Basm.
06:12:23 <SuperAussieEvil> No, I do my coding with refridgerator magnets and a laser pointer.
06:12:56 <Pikhq> I do mine with a compiler which takes PEBBLE code and either outputs C, outputs Brainfuck, or interprets it.
06:13:34 <Pikhq> But mine's faster.
06:14:00 <SuperAussieEvil> Creating a language where you need a reference book to find out what simple numbers are.
06:14:25 <Pikhq> That'd be Brainfuck.
06:14:35 <Pikhq> Don't need it for Pebble, though.
06:14:50 <Pikhq> Just a call to something in ^stdcons.bfm, and you're on your way.
06:19:10 <Pikhq> source ^stdcons.bfm
06:19:10 <Pikhq> string foo! "Ember.\n"
06:21:16 <Pikhq> Fine, fine. Don't take what is probably the most efficient high-level language which compiles to Brainfuck.
06:21:30 <Pikhq> (for varying definitions of "high-level")
06:23:58 <Pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble-1.0-preview.tar.bz2 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pfuck-1.0.tar.bz2
06:24:04 <Pikhq> (end self-whoring for now)
06:27:11 * GregorR-L imagines the 'P' in "PFUCK" is silent.
06:28:45 <Pikhq> GregorR-L: Wasn't thinking about it like that, but I like that pronounciation.
06:29:06 <Pikhq> Consider it official.
06:30:12 <GregorR-L> That's just not something I want to think about.
06:30:34 <Pikhq> Bloody. . . I forgot to update the copyright dates.
06:30:44 <Pikhq> Still saying Copyright (c) 2006.
06:31:44 <Pikhq> Stupid mistake fixed.
06:33:06 <Pikhq> It's only stdlib/ that's under the public domain. . .
06:33:30 <Pikhq> And that's almost entirely composed of ports from the [[Brainfuck_algorithms]] page on the Esolangs wiki.
06:33:59 <GregorR-L> Pikhq: That was a response to bsmntbombdood.
06:34:48 <GregorR-L> bsmntbombdood: Liability disclaimers with PD software are not legally binding, however the author is still liable for all damages.
06:35:20 <GregorR-L> Also, there's still no legal means to declare something as PD short of registering it as such, so most PD stuff isn't technically PD (doesn't matter since that's not really arguable in court)
06:35:44 <GregorR-L> That second one is USA-only, the first part is most countries.
06:36:43 <bsmntbombdood> guy who wrote rm gets sued for deleting all of someones files
06:37:24 <GregorR-L> Given how retarded the US courts are, somebody could probably sue the author of a PD rm.
06:37:32 <Pikhq> rm on my system, at least, is part of coreutils, and so under the GPL.
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11:46:15 <oklopol> * GregorR-L imagines the 'P' in "PFUCK" is silent. <<< or it could just be pronounced 'pfuck'
11:48:07 <oklopol> i managed to fail one using "assignation", whatever the correct term is
11:48:17 <oklopol> others were pretty much correct
11:48:27 <oklopol> got the answers right away
11:49:23 <oklopol> i fitted 7 answers on one a4 :)
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19:44:50 * Pikhq complains about PFUCK being too fast
19:50:52 <Pikhq> Pebble's Fuck Up Compiler, Kay?
19:50:58 <Pikhq> Renamed from basm.
20:15:34 <SimonRC> Well, yesterday's loony has turned out to have the not-totally-insane beliefs.
20:15:39 <SimonRC> They are as sensible as most religions, and less harmful than some religions.
20:15:44 <SimonRC> Although, if he was inclined and had the required talents, the guy could start a suicide cult with them.
20:16:37 <SimonRC> Pikhq: remind me what that translates from and to. Ditto PEBBEL
20:17:18 <Pikhq> SimonRC: PFUCK goes from Brainfuck to C.
20:17:33 <Pikhq> And PEBBLE goes from PEBBLE to C or Brainfuck.
20:17:44 <Pikhq> The C backend is highly efficient now.
20:17:49 <SimonRC> PFUCK is written in PEBBLE, right?
20:18:18 <Pikhq> pfuck.bfm, when compiled to C, takes 0.214 seconds to compile LostKng.b on my system.
20:18:35 <SimonRC> Pikhq: is the PEBBLE stdlib in BF, or is there a C version too?
20:19:09 <SimonRC> how does PEBBLE->C compare with PEBBLE->BF->C?
20:19:37 <Pikhq> The PEBBLE stdlib has a language-generic version written in PEBBLE (designed for Brainfuck efficiency), and language-specific variants for the C and interpreter backends.
20:19:57 <Pikhq> Let me test the PEBBLE->BF->C path.;
20:20:15 <Pikhq> I've tested the PEBBLE->C path with and without language-specific macros.
20:21:32 <Pikhq> The language-specific macros provide 0.214 seconds, without nets 2 seconds. . .
20:23:21 <SimonRC> What is PEBBLE written in?
20:24:03 <Pikhq> PEBBLE is written in Tcl.
20:24:17 <SimonRC> You aren't a *total* masocchist then.
20:25:14 <Pikhq> The PEBBLE->BF->C path provides 2.749 seconds to compile LostKng.b, assuming -O2 on GCC.
20:25:26 <Pikhq> Err. Wrong executable
20:27:18 <SimonRC> that is not too bad I think.
20:28:06 <Pikhq> So, we've got 0.249 seconds with language-specific macros, 2.401 without, and 11.622 seconds when compiling the Brainfuck code itself.
20:28:34 <Pikhq> Yeah, I think my compiler provides for some damned fast code. ;)
20:29:23 <SimonRC> what do the language-specific macros for C look like?
20:30:14 <Pikhq> macro name in out temp {
20:30:14 <Pikhq> lang { /* Here be C code */ }
20:30:44 <Pikhq> If it's part of your project, that macro will be in ./c/
20:30:58 <Pikhq> If it's part of stdlib, it'll be in stdlib/c
20:31:50 <Pikhq> If the compiler can't find the language-specific version, it goes on to the generic version, and then it errors out.
20:33:14 <SimonRC> how does one write a generic version?
20:34:10 <Pikhq> macro name in out temp { # Here be Pebble code }
20:35:13 <SimonRC> So there are built-in macros for all the bf operations, right?
20:35:35 <SimonRC> You can't really say increment in a generic way
20:35:39 <Pikhq> Built-in commands, yes.
20:36:18 <Pikhq> And a few extra built-in commands for the addition of macros, and to tell the optimization pass things.
20:38:52 <Pikhq> Let the optimization pass know if a cell is 0, so that it can avoid do pointless cell clears.
20:40:10 <Pikhq> isnot0 isn't really needed in the modern language much, because the optimization pass can detect that accurately.
20:42:06 <SimonRC> unless you are doing funny movements with odd invariants
20:43:46 <Pikhq> No, it detects all cell writes which could possibly change the value accurately.
20:44:16 <Pikhq> The only time it won't work is for the language-specific macros, which have been written in such a way as to make up for that.
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21:52:43 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: have you sticked with the nap system?
21:54:50 <oklopol> sounds like something i'd like to try
21:55:08 <oklopol> but since you seem to have started already, better for me to see if you die, first
21:55:41 <oklopol> because if you do, i don't think i'll try it
22:00:22 <oklopol> well, if i put an alarm almost immediately after falling asleep (< 1h), i almost always wake up
22:00:43 <oklopol> though of course not if you're tired like hell...
22:04:09 <oerjan> there is an anecdote about Fridtjof Nansen, he took his afternoon nap with his keys or something in his hand. The nap only lasted until he woke up by his keys hitting the floor...
22:04:51 <oklopol> i heard that about pascal or someone...
22:05:08 <oklopol> a way to keep him awake while reading in the night
22:05:13 <lament> how's that an anecdote
22:05:29 <lament> i don't see why it even merits a mention of a famous person
22:05:39 <lament> it's just a way to prevent falling asleep...
22:06:18 <oerjan> presumably it's an anecdote because it gets told about various famous persons
22:06:42 <oklopol> no one tells anecdotes about me rubbing my forehead with a frozen beanbag :<
22:06:51 <oerjan> (nansen would be a natural choice in norway)
22:07:43 <oerjan> my impression was that whoever it was needed just such a short nap
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22:08:57 <oerjan> btw, i heard this strange anecdote about oklopol. apparently he uses to rub his forehead with a frozen beanbag when he has a hangover.
22:11:32 * Pikhq might wake up for a nuclear attack. . . Might.
22:12:43 <lament> i have alarm set on my cellphone
22:13:00 <lament> before the actual alarm plays, the cellphone goes out of sleep mode (turns on)
22:13:13 <lament> as it does that, it makes a tiny sound
22:13:39 <lament> (not intentionally - probably some voltage change in the speaker as the systems turn on)
22:13:47 <lament> it's that tiny sound that usually wakes me up :)
22:14:30 <oklopol> oerjan: i've never had a hangover, beanbags are for keeping the eyes open :)
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22:15:58 <oerjan> oklopol: I'm sorry, but anecdotes always change. I expect it to swiftly change into a Pekka/Toivonen joke.
22:17:04 <lament> I heard this anecdote about oerjan, he uses to drink rubbing alcohol and eat bags full of beans
22:18:07 <lament> and then he has hangovers :)
22:18:09 <oerjan> Pekka/Toivonen are the stock names Norwegians use in jokes about Finnish
22:18:15 <SimonRC> lament: BTW, that occurs with mechanical alar clocks too, I hear.
22:18:38 <lament> SimonRC: yeah, i can imagine it would.
22:18:59 <lament> i KNOW the sound will be followed by the alarm, so i wake up.
22:19:41 <oerjan> terribly flatulent hangovers
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22:35:03 <bsmntbombdood> i would imagine rubbing alcohol would be unpleasent
22:36:11 <bsmntbombdood> it took like 8 minutes for my alarm clock to wake me just now :/
22:38:08 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: how much have you been awake now?
22:38:13 <oklopol> i mean, when did you start?
22:39:27 <oklopol> so... i've had less sleep than you :P
22:40:17 <oklopol> hehe, it's 00:37, i have another test at 8:00, and i have to write an essay still
22:40:30 <oklopol> and i got about 2 hours sleep last night
22:41:02 <SimonRC> My exam is in 14 hours' time
22:42:14 <ihope> Generally it's a good idea to be well-slept before an exam... I think.
22:45:18 * bsmntbombdood conjectures that SimonRC, oklopol and oerjan are all on the same continent, and that continent is different from his
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22:49:23 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: did you read today's xkcd before decideing on your sleep experiment?
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22:50:43 <ihope> I'm 1749 right now.
22:50:44 <SimonRC> I think with practice that comic could actually be done.
22:50:58 * ihope scrambles some data
22:51:12 <bsmntbombdood> well, i'm off to the neighbor's to suspend some meat over a flame
22:51:25 <ihope> I think that means bsmntbombdood's two hours west of me.
22:52:25 <ihope> And oklopol's seven hours east, oerjan's eight, and SimonRC's nine.
22:52:40 <oerjan> assuming we are all on daylight saving
22:53:10 <oerjan> which we europeans are
22:53:20 <ihope> I'll just assume that you are and hope that it all goes away because of that.
22:53:21 <oerjan> but i've heard there are american exceptions
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22:54:06 <oerjan> wait, simonRC is six, not nine
22:54:10 <ihope> If the schools... and everyone else didn't follow DST, I probably wouldn't.
22:54:10 <bsmntbombdood> bush said "zomg changing DST will save are engergiez"
22:54:39 <oerjan> anyhow you have us in the wrong order
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22:55:05 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: they're not "normal human"!
22:55:33 <oerjan> SimonRC is in England, which is west of Norway where I am, which is west of Finland where Oklopol is
22:57:08 <oerjan> only during winter surely
22:57:09 <oklopol> o_O weird seeing myself capitalized
22:57:19 <ihope> oklopol: you're capitalized?
22:57:55 <oerjan> for some reason i didn't use completion when writing his nick
22:58:33 <ihope> ". . . which is west of Finland where Oklopol is"
22:59:15 <oerjan> actually to be precise _some_ parts of Norway are east of Finland, in the north
22:59:22 <ihope> (And I suddenly notice I'm the only one using capital letters at the beginnings of sentences.)
23:00:35 <oerjan> *east of most of finland
23:01:09 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: because people like themselves!
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02:46:23 <GregorR-L> http://www.codu.org/hats.php < Now finally up to date.
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03:44:57 * Pikhq is of the opinion that you like hats too much
03:45:29 <GregorR-L> How many pairs of underwear do you own? Probably more than the number of hats I own ... I think you like underwear too much
03:45:53 <Pikhq> How do you know I'm not a nudist or something? :p
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04:59:33 <GregorR-L> I have to presume you intended a hyphen in there somewhere.
04:59:40 <GregorR-L> And I'm going to hope it's before "ass"
04:59:50 <GregorR-L> Because I'd say there are plenty of nerds without a weird ass-hobby.
05:04:37 <GregorR-L> http://www.codu.org/hats/Kofia-med.jpg < My newest hat is super-cool.
05:05:11 <GregorR-L> Though it makes me look super-bald :P
05:07:39 * Pikhq lacks a weird ass-hobby.
05:07:46 <Pikhq> Weird-ass hobbies? Plenty.
05:50:31 <Pikhq> I feel sorry for kids who saw that, I really do.
05:56:31 <GregorR-L> "Always ask someone you love before you put anything in your mouth."
06:56:52 <Pikhq> Would you prefer to do a PNG decoder by hand?
06:59:44 <Pikhq> And libc provides for it.
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07:22:11 <GregorR-L> http://www.google.com/search?q=lodepng
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10:22:14 <oklopol> i overslept as well.. luckily they let me in 40 minutes late
10:23:00 <oklopol> because i was the only one making the test (overslept it once already) it would've been kind of a waste not letting me in
10:26:12 <oklopol> you have more hats than i have underwaer
10:26:45 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i have less than 8
10:30:07 <oklopol> hmm... i wonder if coffee would make that harder
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10:30:33 <oklopol> for some reason i assumed it would
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12:35:29 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: did you read any other resources before starting? other than that one short post
12:35:42 <oklopol> about the not- sleeping thing
12:36:02 <bsmntbombdood> just google "ubermans sleep schedule" or "polyphasic sleep"
12:38:19 <oklopol> anyone from germany here (sorry if i should've already known), wanna write me a 150 word essay :>
12:45:21 <oklopol> i should probably be able to tell whether we last talked yesterday or the day after that... but i can't
12:45:53 <oklopol> prolly in the night, i don
12:46:02 <oklopol> 't see any reason why i wouldn't have been here
12:47:48 <bsmntbombdood> i woke up from my last full night's sleep about 2 days ago
12:49:33 <oklopol> i've done that much without any sleep a few times
12:50:02 <oklopol> but they say you lose your mind after about 3-4, however little you need sleep normally
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13:33:47 <bsmntbombdood> "Between the 120 ~ 150 hours mark vivid hallucinations, similar, but more lucid than those of a psilocybin experience tend to begin, and by the seventh day (160+ hours) the participants are reported to be both awake and lucidly dreaming continuously."
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17:20:10 <lament> that does NOT sound fun.
17:50:15 <SimonRC> was lolcode perpetrated by one of us lot?
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20:57:07 <aarcane> Does anyone know of a brainfuck interpreter which can be built as an apache module so I can use it in my database ?
20:57:37 <Pikhq> I think there is modbf, actually.
20:57:37 <aarcane> and I'd like if it included bindings to LOLCODE as well, since I'm planning to mix brainfuck and LOLCODE on my website :)
20:57:56 <aarcane> Pikhq, what's the website ?
20:58:25 <Pikhq> http://sourceforge.net/projects/modbf/ Can't attest to the quality, though.
20:58:43 <Pikhq> You could possibly be better off trying to write that in modphp or something.
21:31:03 <SimonRC> 17:48:45 < SimonRC> was lolcode perpetrated by one of us lot?
21:31:58 <aarcane> Jessicatz and red_herring seem to be the main proponents of LOLCODE, and neither is here
21:33:31 <aarcane> in fact I appear to be the only common link between #esoteric and #LOLCODE
21:34:15 <aarcane> and that's just 'cause jessicatz got me thinking about brainfuck o,.,0
21:35:14 <aarcane> speaking of brainfuck, how does one use the Database in brainfuck ?
21:39:13 <Pikhq> There is no database in Brainfuck.
21:39:31 <Pikhq> You could do something such as PESOIX to provide for Brainfuck database access, though.
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21:53:17 <ehird`> LOLCODE is goddamn stupid IMO
21:53:38 <ehird`> its authors appear to believe that an esolang based on internet abbreviations is a very new and funny idea that deserves its own website
21:54:50 <ehird`> also everybody ELSE seems to think its the funniest thing possible
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21:56:09 <oerjan> well it's not new, there is Omgrofl
21:56:38 <ehird`> but somehow it's all over the net with "Looky someone made a prgo languaj with INTERNET WURDS LOL!!!!!!!!"
21:58:06 <oklopol> hmm... it's long since i've gotten excited about languages whose main idea is their connection to the real world... like pokemon->commands, internet-slang->commands or smileys->commands
21:58:50 <oklopol> while these could make the greatest languages of all if properly made... their actual functionality is not cool in any way, usually
21:59:27 <oklopol> well, of course i get excited about them
21:59:42 <Pikhq> There's also smiley.
21:59:50 <oklopol> but not like "omg why didn't i invent this" excited
21:59:54 <oerjan> many esolangs are just a thin level of coding above something ordinary.
22:00:01 <ehird`> i mean, LOLCODE can be a good esolang...
22:00:09 <ehird`> but with the stupid overhyping and all of that, it
22:00:16 <ehird`> 's lost my respect at least
22:00:17 <Pikhq> oklopol: I've actually had ideas for a Pokemon language which *could* be interesting. . . Of course, it's just not interesting enough for me to write it.
22:00:24 <Pikhq> The most I'll do is talk about it.
22:00:32 <ehird`> Pikhq: object oriented, surely? "I choose you, CLASS!" -> instance of CLASS
22:01:05 <Pikhq> Each Pokemon contains a list of attacks. It goes through each attack before going on to the next. . .
22:01:09 -!- crathman has joined.
22:01:24 <Pikhq> It's looping construct is "mimic", wherein it can temporarily become another Pokemon.
22:01:46 <oklopol> that's an example of syntax-driven esolang design, which i was talking about, that of ehird`'s... which is kinda rude to say since you just said it :)
22:01:49 <Pikhq> So, psuedo-functional.
22:02:31 <Pikhq> Really, IMO, if you're going to do an esolang that's syntax based, you should have more than just the syntax be interesting.
22:03:38 <Pikhq> (or make the syntax so damned weird that that alone is justification. . .)
22:04:01 <Pikhq> (Malbolge's syntax counts, and it still has more than just syntax)
22:04:35 <oklopol> i've never played with malbolge
22:04:43 <oklopol> always assumed i ain't leet enough
22:04:55 <Pikhq> That's because nobody is.
22:06:03 <ehird`> hrm.. a language where "hello\nhello\nhello" is an infinite loop
22:07:38 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65789
22:07:39 <ehird`> i highly doubt this is turing complete... it can infinite loop and metaprogram but not much more
22:08:51 <ehird`> syntax: INPUT or INPUT\nREGEXP\NREPLACEMENT (the replacements are carried out, then it is evaluated as one of those two syntaxes)
22:08:56 <ehird`> ANYTHING. -> prints ANYTHING
22:09:52 <oklopol> "one of those two syntaxes" ?
22:10:20 <ehird`> syntax: INPUT or INPUT\nREGEXP\NREPLACEMENT (the replacements are carried out, then it is evaluated as one of INSERT THIS MESSAGE HERE)
22:11:23 <oklopol> i'll try to understand that for a few minutes, then ask again
22:12:21 <oklopol> syntax: INPUT or INPUT\nREGEXP\NREPLACEMENT (the replacements are carried out, then it [it? the new INPUT?] is evaluated [like recursively?] as one of INSERT THIS MESSAGE HERE [i have no idea...])
22:12:38 <ehird`> like recursively - yes, it the new input - yes
22:13:13 <ehird`> EVALUATION PROCESS: INPUT. if INPUT is ANYTHING., output ANYTHING, OTHERWISE... INPUT\nREGEXP\nREPLACEMENT (the replacements are carried out, then the new input is evaluated)
22:13:40 <oklopol> that is a deathmode for slashes.
22:14:25 <oklopol> we tried to make a nontrivial loop in slashes... no one could do it
22:14:56 <ehird`> ^ hrm. this SHOULD print "world"
22:15:30 <oklopol> and in slashes you can have "/first/replacements/ any text here, just output /second/replacement/ sdf"
22:15:40 * Pikhq wants a death mode for Brainfuck.
22:15:48 <oklopol> and each time a char other than / is seen, it's output
22:15:50 <oerjan> actually, slashes doesn't have regexes
22:16:11 <oerjan> part of what makes it so difficult
22:16:17 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it won't get easier though, actually
22:16:31 <ehird`> well - some regexp engines are near turingcomplete
22:16:35 <ehird`> perl's IS turing complete iirc
22:16:46 <oklopol> because you can't make context-binded replacements with regexes
22:16:51 <ehird`> so theoretically you could write the program just being a regexp with input crafted to make it work
22:18:06 <oerjan> however assuming only "normal" regexes it might still be as difficult to write a real loop, if you cannot handle escape characters
22:19:21 <ehird`> hmm my interpreter is totally borked
22:19:30 * ehird` writes a spec and makes someone else do it
22:19:42 <oklopol> if you have a way to make bnf'ish regexes, basically tree-rewriting
22:19:47 <oerjan> the problem with slashes as i see it is that you cannot do different things to \ in the "program" and "output" part, so quining seems nearly impossible
22:19:49 <oklopol> then making loops would be trivial
22:20:48 <oklopol> i only understand my own thoughts... i hate being human
22:22:01 <ehird`> slashes quining is easy
22:22:05 <ehird`> "hello world" is a quine in slashes.
22:22:09 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65795
22:22:11 <ehird`> OK, someone implement ^^ that
22:22:25 <oklopol> ehird`: non trivial quine for looping
22:22:43 <oklopol> that was implicit given we searched for one for ages
22:23:37 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65796
22:23:39 <ehird`> that's a sample program
22:24:09 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65798
22:24:11 <ehird`> and its evaluation process
22:25:34 <ehird`> you can write loops in it, at least, with clever regexps
22:27:01 <oklopol> someone tell me how regexes make that easier than slashes, please
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22:27:10 <oklopol> also, what did oerjan say there
22:27:16 <ehird`> well... regexps are sane and fun and evil
22:27:57 <ehird`> take that, lisp folks - you can't arbitarily modify the TEXT and SYNTACTICAL STRUCTURE of your programs! :D
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22:28:29 <ehird`> possibly more IO etc could be done with , and stuff
22:29:27 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure someone will write my essay if i try for long enough
22:29:44 <ehird`> i'm pretty sure someone will implement my language if i try for long enough
22:30:03 <oerjan> can you explain the syntax more precisely?
22:30:19 <ehird`> oerjan: as far as where the regexp/replacement are got form?
22:30:48 <ehird`> if so, it's just a simple "Does INPUT consist of three lines? If so, the lines are INPUT, MATCH, REPLACE"
22:30:52 <ehird`> i forget the names - you know what i mean
22:31:21 <oerjan> and is that splitting redone after each substitution?
22:31:33 <ehird`> only if it needs to check if it needs some
22:31:53 <ehird`> "is there no search/replace possible? if so," is what triggers the check
22:32:26 <oklopol> eval(code){code.replace("\\n","\n"); s=code.split("\n"); if(s.length==1)print code; else eval(s[0].regex_replace(s[1],s[2])); }
22:32:37 <ehird`> what language is THAT?
22:32:51 <oklopol> kinda obvious what it means...
22:33:09 <ehird`> it doesn't handle \n etc in replacement/input
22:33:17 <ehird`> and it's the ANYTHING. that triggers the printing, not it being on one line
22:33:30 <ehird`> (e.g. you could have two lines "ABC\nDEF." and it'd print that)
22:33:34 <oerjan> what does ANYTHING. mean?
22:33:51 <ehird`> oerjan: any character, including a dot, followed by a terminating dot
22:34:21 <GregorR> I didn't sleep last night. I'm not tired, but I hae no energy whatsoever. Argh.
22:34:22 <ehird`> (any character, including a dot+)terminating dot
22:34:38 <oklopol> any character or any string?
22:34:50 <ehird`> read my evaluation process paste
22:34:54 <ehird`> you'll see hwo it works
22:35:55 <ehird`> what's not to understand about it?
22:38:26 <oerjan> so if the input _both_ contains 3 lines and ends with ., a substitution is done.
22:39:50 <bsmntbombdood> proof: http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/caption1.jpg
22:40:25 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65806
22:40:28 <ehird`> that should be unambigious.
22:41:54 <oerjan> so the answer was "yes"
22:42:34 <oklopol> "Is INPUT 3 lines, and only 3 lines?" this is kinda funny :P
22:42:57 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65808
22:43:01 <ehird`> and some comprehensive examples
22:43:13 <ehird`> oerjan: no - the input doesn't have to end with . to perform a substitution
22:44:05 <oerjan> that is not what my question meant
22:44:31 <ehird`> "so if the input _both_ contains 3 lines and ends with ., a substitution is done."
22:44:33 <SimonRC> GODSDAMNIT IT'S PAOLINI ALL OVER AGAIN!
22:44:58 <oklopol> <oerjan> the problem with slashes as i see it is that you cannot do different things to \ in the "program" and "output" part, so quining seems nearly impossible <<< can you explain that so that even i undestand?
22:45:11 <ehird`> if the spec + the example evaluations aren't enough, then i hav no idea what is :)
22:45:16 <oklopol> most things can't be explained that way, but i'll try my luck
22:45:20 <SimonRC> someone does what a thousand amartures have been doing for a decade, but they manage to make it popular for some reason, and they get all the fucking attention.
22:45:30 <ehird`> SimonRC: what - LOLCODE?
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22:45:51 <oklopol> SimonRC: that's the gist of pop music
22:46:03 <oerjan> i think i understand your language now
22:46:05 <ehird`> SimonRC: i agree if so.
22:46:11 <oklopol> i recognize my childhood piano riffs in todays popular music
22:46:15 <ehird`> SimonRC: reddit's going crazy about it
22:46:26 <ehird`> i pointed out its old had and got a nice shiny -8 points
22:48:53 <Pikhq> SimonRC: The worst part being that it's not all that good.
22:49:15 <ehird`> Pikhq: what - LOLCODE?
22:49:21 <oerjan> oklopol: most quines go something like: turn the data of the program into two copies, one being the rest of the program and one being the same data. this requires being able to treat the two copies differently, which seems impossible in slashes
22:49:30 <ehird`> The author asked what a ternary op was when he was shown one
22:49:35 <ehird`> (X) :) Y :< Z i think it was
22:49:39 <ehird`> and he asked if it was a goto label
22:49:49 <Pikhq> It's not even really esoteric!
22:49:53 <ehird`> and that "it has too much punctuation could it be expressed in words"
22:50:06 <ehird`> a ternary operator without symbols ... useless! :)
22:50:24 <Pikhq> If I can grok a program in it without having read the spec, it's not at all esoteric.
22:50:24 <ehird`> Pikhq: yes, it has includes and stuff - I CAN HAS STDIO? WHY CAN DOES YOU NEEDS STDIO? just do IO!
22:50:39 <oklopol> nonononono ternaries.... use other fixes for your multioperand needs!
22:51:08 * Pikhq is almost tempted to make a real Esolang which is superficially similar to LOLCODE
22:51:29 <Pikhq> It will, of *course*, be RPN.
22:51:29 <ehird`> i hope people forget about LOLCODE soon
22:51:32 <SimonRC> I am bitching about this more than you lot because I have seen it before.
22:51:43 <ehird`> and real esolangs can reclaim :)
22:51:50 <SimonRC> fucking Paolini did it with conlangs
22:52:07 <Pikhq> SimonRC: What, like the various Brainfuck variants which just change the instruction symbols?
22:52:10 <Pikhq> oklopol: Google it.
22:52:12 <oklopol> someone post the url if you have it
22:52:19 <ehird`> constructed languagse.
22:52:22 <Pikhq> http://ww.lolcode.com/
22:52:46 <oerjan> not _necessarily_ speakable...
22:52:47 <ehird`> it got popular before it was even implemented, too
22:52:53 <Pikhq> It's *really* stupid.
22:53:02 <ehird`> author was apparently either an amazing brain-evaluator or can't program.
22:53:06 <Pikhq> It's like a friggin' syntax replacement for C!
22:53:23 <SimonRC> Like genocides, you get really sick of them quite quickly.
22:53:27 <Pikhq> (and a really bad one, only supporting a subset)
22:53:48 <ehird`> lolcode's syntax doesn't mangle c's semantics enough to make it esoteric, but it also changes it too much so its just stupid
22:53:57 <Pikhq> "variables are untyped, *as far as we can tell so far*"
22:54:19 <ehird`> Pikhq: take a look at some of the implementations http://ww.lolcode.com/contributions/lolphp
22:54:26 <Pikhq> It's a bad sign when the spec doesn't even *decide* on whether or not it's typed.
22:54:55 <Pikhq> Excuse me while I call that "stupid".
22:55:27 <ehird`> http://ww.lolcode.com/contributions/mah-bukkit i don't even think this is PARSABLE.
22:55:50 <Pikhq> I get the feeling that nobody involved is a coder.
22:56:14 <ehird`> its mindboggling that an esolang has its own domain
22:56:30 <ehird`> So far, LOLCODE has appeared to me to be entirely loosely typed. I see this as causing lots of problems when it comes to implementation… even if we limit ourselves to LOLCODE being interpreted. — Kyle, 2007/05/29 09:11
22:56:30 <ehird`> ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm .... loose typing is much easier to implement
22:56:59 <ehird`> "I agree with dynamic typing. Otherwise, it sounds too much like a programming language. — Risser, 2007/05/29 16:31" ...
22:57:04 <Pikhq> Especially if you just want to write it in a higher-level, loosely-typed language.
22:57:34 <ehird`> http://ww.lolcode.com/contributions/database-queries DATABASE QUERIES IN A LANGUAGE CORE?
22:57:37 <Pikhq> Um, a huge amount of languages are dynamically typed. Go back to "AppleBASIC for Beginners", please.
22:57:44 <ehird`> WHEN ALL THE IMPLEMENTATIONS ARE ABOUT 3 LINES
22:57:49 <ehird`> AND ARE VERY INCOMPLETE
22:58:14 <Pikhq> I could probably write a self-hosting implementation in 100 lines or less.
22:58:26 <Pikhq> When your esolang is that simple, you fail.
22:58:41 <ehird`> esolangs should either be nicely big or tiny
22:58:57 <ehird`> now - somebody implement my language
22:59:13 <oklopol> you can't have but one file open at a time
22:59:29 <ehird`> http://ww.lolcode.com/contributions/hey-guys ........ threading...... DO THESE PEOPLE REALISE THEY'RE DREAMING FAR TOO FAR AHEAD?!!!!!!
23:00:09 <Pikhq> I think they want it to be more of a practical language than an esolang. . .
23:00:11 <oklopol> that's what you get when you don't know what turing completeness is...
23:00:11 <Pikhq> But fail horribly.
23:00:27 <ehird`> But it's a joke they don't quite get themselvse
23:00:45 <ehird`> So they just take loads of shitty concepts, warp them to their non-programming brains, and laugh about them
23:00:53 <ehird`> And make 3-line implementations that don't actually work, using php and substr().
23:01:09 <oklopol> i hate practical languages... perl makes me vomit with rage sometimes :)
23:01:21 <oklopol> though might be just my opinion it's practical
23:01:27 <Pikhq> Then you must hate PEBBLE.
23:01:49 <ehird`> i dont think the people doing all of this realise that the language with all the current suggestions would be 1. very hard to implement 2. a very big slow implementation
23:02:05 <Pikhq> If you go with the base suggestion, then it's far too easy.
23:02:17 <ehird`> i mean all the contribs
23:02:37 * oerjan is taking a shot at ehird's language.
23:03:02 <ehird`> what language are you implementing it in?
23:03:18 <oerjan> oklopol, avert your eyes!
23:03:31 <ehird`> self-hosting without an original impl? haha
23:03:46 <oerjan> makes it trivial, i hope
23:03:46 <lament> ehird`: it's the only pure way
23:04:04 <Pikhq> You know that Esolang contest a while back?
23:04:11 <lament> i hope ihope is not too upset with all these mentions of his name
23:04:14 <Pikhq> In lieu of judging, I think the entries, at least, should be posted.
23:04:42 <ihope> "I hope" is not my name.
23:05:01 <ihope> You can tell because it beeps whenever you say my name, but it doesn't beep when you say "I hope". :-P
23:05:02 <ehird`> ihope ihope hopes that ihope ihope hopes that ihope hopes.
23:05:56 <ihope> Besides, there are two other puns you can make out of "ihope".
23:07:26 <oklopol> hope... i've seen it too many times, starting to think there is no such word
23:07:46 <ehird`> oerjan: does it work? :P
23:08:33 <ihope> Yup, there's two of the puns.
23:08:51 <oklopol> oerjan: perl taught me concepts, so i have to like it, i just hate things like perl's <FILE> etc.
23:09:23 <SimonRC> I just have to take a different attitude.
23:10:01 <lament> so i hop into a bus and go to ihop where, i hope, i'll meet ihope
23:10:20 <ihope> "I hop"? That's one I haven't seen before.
23:10:24 <SimonRC> I need to take the D&D dragon attitude: extreme patience, and teasing of those that age ten times faster than oneself.
23:10:27 <ehird`> so i hop into a hope bus and i hope i go to ihop where i hope i'll hope to meat ihope
23:10:47 <ihope> Should I just tell you what the third pun is? :-P
23:11:30 <bsmntbombdood> i'm so tired, i haven't slept a wink \ i'm so tired, my mind is on the blink \ i wonder should i get up and fix myself a drink \ no, no no
23:11:31 <ihope> Should I tell you what the fourth one is, then?
23:12:04 <lament> no. We don't actually care.
23:12:43 <ehird`> oerjan: i'll s/// you soon if you don't post an impl! *g*
23:14:21 <SimonRC> Of course, this involves sending automated emails saying things like "Brainfuck is 15 years old today? Where is LOL"front-page-of-digg"CODE *now*, eh?"
23:15:03 <ehird`> SimonRC: Why do you check digg in the first place
23:15:23 <ehird`> oklopol: Apple, iLife, duh!!
23:15:24 <ihope> Apple does iEverything.
23:15:44 <SimonRC> the site was a bit slow, so I thought to check some common traffic-generators
23:16:05 <ehird`> SimonRC: reddit! reddit! :)
23:17:04 <SimonRC> Ok, folks, how long till Eric Bauman catches on?
23:17:30 <SimonRC> For is it not sung: "He travelled all around, on the wave of each phenomenon."?
23:17:40 <ehird`> 2 1/3456349857958734598347598375983487593875893759379345
23:17:51 <ehird`> it might be a long second.
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23:18:44 <ehird`> oerjan: testing it with an infinite loop are we?? *g*
23:18:50 <red_herring> why yuou callin LOLCODE an esoteric language.
23:18:55 <ehird`> red_herring: we're NOT.
23:19:06 <ehird`> in fact, RIGHT here, just now, we're insulting it!
23:19:10 <lament> who's calling what where
23:19:19 <SimonRC> It's an *attempt at* an esoteric language
23:19:32 <aarcane> SimonRC, it's not esoteric, it's functional
23:19:33 <ehird`> SimonRC: I don't think the authors know what esolangs are
23:19:36 <ehird`> aarcane: You are wron.
23:19:40 <SimonRC> LOLCODE is following a 30-year-old tradition without knowing it
23:19:44 <aarcane> esoteric languages are useless by definition :)
23:19:45 <ehird`> Functional in the pure sense?
23:19:51 <ehird`> Or functional in the useful sense
23:20:03 <ehird`> Because... if useful, then WTF - who would actually code in macros?
23:20:09 <lament> aarcane: please don't use terminology before learning what it means.
23:20:10 <SimonRC> "esoteric" in this context means that is is weird for the purpose of being weird
23:20:34 <ehird`> i suggest we get a bot that auto kickbans anyone saying "LOLCODE" without "sucks" or "i hate" in the same sentence
23:20:41 <aarcane> functional in this sense means it works
23:20:54 <ehird`> aarcane: so it's a real language that you seriously expect people to use for serious purposes
23:21:22 <aarcane> ehird`, it's a high level programming language for children and lolcatz <3
23:21:22 <ehird`> please go bang your head against a brick wall and then stop
23:21:48 <ehird`> aarcane: oh, i see, we're playing the "LOLCATS LOL LOL FUNNAY LOLLLERERSRZ" card
23:22:03 <red_herring> but words like 'function' and 'equals' dont mean anything to them
23:22:11 <ehird`> ... shit shit shit. you're right
23:22:38 <Pikhq> It really just looks stupid to me.
23:22:41 <aarcane> it's High Level Programming for Low Level people :)
23:22:42 <red_herring> i just want to go through the python source code
23:23:09 <Pikhq> And it sure as hell isn't functional.
23:23:18 <ehird`> aarcane: i wish you'd just realise its an idiotic idea
23:23:20 <Pikhq> I fail to see how something can be functional without even having functions.
23:23:31 <ehird`> Pikhq: aarcane meant "usable"
23:23:49 <oklopol> i think Pikhq's was still correct
23:24:00 <Pikhq> ehird`: Then aarcane should go back and learn a good deal about computer science.
23:24:28 <Pikhq> At least as much I have in my spare time after school.
23:24:29 <ehird`> Nobody involved in LOLCAT can program beyond PHP.
23:24:50 <Pikhq> bsmntbombdood: No, learning in your spare time is just as effective.
23:24:51 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: nowhere did he say school
23:25:32 <oklopol> that's so great, i wish i could've started as well
23:25:45 <aarcane> ehird`, I've got years of experience programming in C, C++, Javascript, (ashamedly) Visual Basic, Java, and Python, as well as PHP.
23:25:56 <Pikhq> aarcane: It doesn't show.
23:26:12 <ehird`> aarcane: The only decent languages there are C, JS and Python.
23:26:25 <ehird`> Also, knowing a >language< isn't >knowing computer science<
23:26:32 <lament> ehird`: there's perhaps some value in learning java
23:26:38 <ehird`> If you're going to do something like LOLCODE, you need more than language experience
23:26:44 <lament> ehird`: if only to see what good intentions lead to :)
23:26:50 <Pikhq> lament: It does depend upon intentions.
23:26:58 <ehird`> lament: it has potential; but its crippling parts make it a letdown even for a learning language
23:27:09 <Pikhq> If your intention is to see the details of how not to do a language, then Java's got some good examples.
23:27:14 <lament> ehird`: i'm not saying it's good. i'm saying there's value in learning it.
23:27:19 <oklopol> not that i don't hate java, i do, but why do you ppl hate it so much? :P
23:27:29 <ehird`> oklopol: we're languageologists :)
23:27:36 <ehird`> C, Haskell, Scheme, and Ruby are my preferred languages
23:28:01 <Pikhq> I prefer C, C++, Tcl, and a tiny hint of Zsh scripting.
23:28:09 <ehird`> the former for low-level stuff... like implementing other languages ;) Haskell for writing elegant, large software, Scheme for elegant, small hacks, and Ruby for general scripts like esolang implementation
23:28:15 <Pikhq> Although I'm thinking about doing Haskell and Scheme.
23:28:24 <ehird`> C++ is an abomination.
23:28:32 <ehird`> Tcl's type system makes me weep.
23:28:39 <lament> tcl has a type system?
23:28:41 <Pikhq> Some of C++'s features are abominations, yes.
23:28:44 <SimonRC> ehird`: Tcl hs a type system?
23:28:52 <Pikhq> lament: It's very weakly typed.
23:28:58 <lament> i thought tcl was all strings
23:29:02 <ehird`> "everything's a string.. or a command. and strings are sort of commands. And also we're just going to let you do ANYTHING with all of this"
23:29:08 <Pikhq> More lists, actually.
23:29:11 <ehird`> Also, the syntax is shell-script-esque and I don't like it.
23:29:29 <lament> "I don't like syntax" is never a very strong argument :)
23:29:35 <ehird`> The two overlapping target markets for Tcl are filled by Ruby and Zsh for me
23:30:00 -!- lament has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/ | LOLCATS.
23:30:02 <Pikhq> Tcl's a bit of an acquired taste, though. . .
23:30:39 <bsmntbombdood> lolcats!! http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/suwwender1.jpg
23:30:52 -!- ehird` has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/ | LOLCODE is not an esolang.
23:31:15 <ehird`> hrm, you're right, not quite
23:31:16 <aarcane> now get SimonRC out of #LOLCODE and we'll be perfect :)
23:31:19 <Pikhq> LOLCODE is barely worthy of the tile "language", IMO.
23:31:22 -!- ehird` has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/ | LOLCODE is not an esolang or any other form of language that mat.
23:31:54 <lament> aarcane: and you out of here, presumably?
23:31:55 <aarcane> ehm.. speaking of SimonRC, does anyone know a BRAINFUCK apache module ?
23:32:14 <aarcane> lament, I'm here to learn an esoteric language, not because of LOLCODE :)
23:32:21 <ehird`> aarcane: you don't learn esolangs
23:32:26 <bsmntbombdood> aarcane: just write it in mod_[non esoteric language]
23:32:26 <Pikhq> aarcane: Modbf. Already suggested it.
23:32:42 <aarcane> ehird`, someone linked me to it earlier, but it claims to only work for Apache 1.3, and needs to be compiled in.
23:32:59 <Pikhq> Write it in mod_php or mod_perl or some-such.
23:33:19 <oklopol> manual pinging is so much fun :=)
23:33:20 <Pikhq> Or just write it in terms of C, and do CGI.
23:33:59 -!- lament has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/.
23:34:27 <oklopol> it's like ringing a random doorbell and running like crazy
23:34:42 <oklopol> ./part is not a part of my repertoire though
23:34:52 <ehird`> oerjan: ping {{interp!}}
23:35:11 <Pikhq> ehird`: source omg.bfm
23:35:24 <Pikhq> source ^stdcons.bfm
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23:35:35 <Pikhq> string omg! "OMG! PING!"
23:35:53 <ehird`> that syntax is odd. ;P
23:36:10 <Pikhq> I've kept the .bfm file extension out of nostalgia. . .
23:36:15 -!- irbdavid has joined.
23:36:21 <Pikhq> PEBBLE: Practical Esoteric Brainfuck-Based Language, Eh?
23:36:29 <ehird`> How is it brainfuck based
23:36:37 <Pikhq> It compiles to Brainfuck.
23:36:46 <ehird`> http://www.google.com/search?q=Practical%20Esoteric%20Brainfuck-Based%20Language,%20Eh? you just made that up, on the spot.
23:36:56 <Pikhq> No, the name change was recent.
23:37:08 <Pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble-1.0-preview.tar.bz2
23:37:18 <Pikhq> I've been working on it for the better part of a year now.
23:37:25 <ehird`> maybe i'll write the RE interp in it
23:37:44 <Pikhq> I've already written an incredibly fast Brainfuck compiler in it. . .
23:37:53 <ehird`> interp-->PEBBLE->that compiler-->:D
23:38:26 <oklopol> well... i guess i should cred it's speed
23:38:50 <Pikhq> oklopol: The Brainfuck compiler: http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pfuck-1.0.tar.bz2
23:39:03 <Pikhq> To build: make PEBBLE=path-to-pebble-here
23:39:29 <oerjan> argh! i cannot find a command to unescape characters in perl strings
23:40:10 <oklopol> $a=5; ==> "$a"="5" ==== LOL
23:41:10 <Pikhq> ehird`: Thoughts, beyond "Eeew, Tcl"?
23:42:16 <SimonRC> ehird`: oh gods I have created you as a monster in my own image
23:43:36 <Pikhq> I think he's busy shaking his head at my compiler. :p
23:45:29 <oerjan> it must be impossible because the perl faq has the question and doesn't answer it.
23:46:06 <oerjan> *impossible in a simple way
23:47:04 -!- irbdavid has left (?).
23:47:42 <oklopol> oerjan: what exactly is unescaping?
23:47:53 <oklopol> i wonder if i ever denoobify
23:48:01 <oerjan> turning \n and the like into the characters they represent
23:48:39 <oklopol> that's \\n right? you meant $ or what?
23:48:46 <aarcane> if I want to run brainfuck as CGI, I need a shebang at the head of the file. but does brainfuck support a shebang ?
23:49:12 <oerjan> something like that. "\\n" -> "\n" i guess
23:49:58 <oklopol> oerjan: i meant what was your problem
23:50:10 <oklopol> perl has a php like raw string thing right?
23:50:36 <oklopol> i explained it pretty well just now :=)
23:50:38 <Pikhq> aarcane: Things like a shebang are comments in Brainfuck.
23:50:46 <oerjan> the problem is that the string is not in the source
23:50:56 <oerjan> it is part of the input
23:51:29 <oklopol> perl actually evaluates strings runtime 8|
23:51:48 <bsmntbombdood> esoteric interpreters should be esoteric, use some self modifying code
23:52:28 <oklopol> my php thue interpreter had that same problem, couldn't solve it, so i just prohibited the use of $'s in the string :<
23:52:52 <oklopol> you could of course wrap strings into your own type
23:53:30 <oerjan> perl does not evaluate strings unless you give them to eval.
23:53:39 <SimonRC> oklopol: I think that sort of multi-line string with <<< is called a "here document" and originated in shell
23:54:03 <oklopol> oerjan: then what is the problem?
23:54:06 <oerjan> it does however have escape characters and interpolation
23:54:49 <oerjan> the problem is that ehird`'s language uses escape characters like perl and i was hoping to use perl's mechanism for handling them.
23:55:07 <ehird`> oerjan: just handle \t\n etc
23:55:29 <ehird`> Pikhq: it's a nice interp
23:55:33 <oklopol> SimonRC: i'm not sure what you meant, that's all, i don't know unix
23:55:45 <Pikhq> ehird`: It's not just an interpreter. . .
23:56:04 <ehird`> i'm going to steal some ideas from it :)
23:56:18 <ehird`> ive always wondered why stack-based is the most popular way to implement compilers
23:56:19 <Pikhq> If you do that with code, just be sure to use the GPL. . .
23:56:34 <ehird`> .. i don't think of local vars as a stack
23:56:39 <ehird`> i think of it as a mapping
23:56:44 <ehird`> so i'd use e.g. bf's tape
23:56:48 <Pikhq> The stack's only needed for the optimization pass.
23:56:56 <ehird`> i was commenting generally
23:57:24 <ehird`> ok, 3-stage language writing process:
23:57:31 <ehird`> write optimizing bf->c compiler
23:57:40 <ehird`> write lang->bf compiler in whatever language
23:57:46 <ehird`> write lang->bf compiler in lang
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23:57:56 <Pikhq> No, I had a 2-stage process.
23:57:57 <ehird`> use whatever-language lang->bf compiler to compile self-hosted one to BF
23:58:04 <Pikhq> Write lang->BF compiler.
23:58:04 <ehird`> then use bf->c to compile the result into C
23:58:11 <ehird`> i mean what i'm going to do
23:58:25 <Pikhq> Well, you're pretty close to my steps, at least. . .
23:58:27 <ehird`> it'll need some extra stuff - i need an unlimited tape, i expect
23:58:50 <Pikhq> Except that the first stage was written in a different language, and not meant to be put towards PEBBLE.
23:59:20 <Pikhq> . . . And it was only ported to give me a really good, large program for testing the compiler against.
23:59:37 <ehird`> is the selfhosted compiler avail anywhere?
00:00:44 * ehird` forgets about making the compiler optimized for now
00:01:04 <SimonRC> are any of you "kopaka649" on digg?
00:01:19 <SimonRC> 'cause he is mentioning the Wiki and is at +1 digs ATM
00:01:32 <oklopol> basically i'm watching you people do stuff and try to feel like i'm doing something as well... perhaps a little futurama would help ->
00:02:32 * ehird` wonders what type to make the unlimitedtape
00:03:15 * SimonRC was kicked from #esoteric [kicked: "No LOLCODE!"]
00:03:49 <oklopol> <non fetish> i just realized Uberman is like the coolest name ever </non fetish>
00:04:56 <SimonRC> I assumed that it had the literal German meaning: Uber + man, rather than being someone's name, initially
00:05:34 <ehird`> bf.c:11: error: ‘c’ undeclared (first use in this function)
00:07:22 <Pikhq> ehird`: Hrm? What self-hosting compiler?
00:09:48 <SimonRC> But it turned out be someone's name
00:10:28 <ehird`> Pikhq: In your language.
00:10:47 <Pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pfuck-1.0.tar.bz2
00:11:04 <Pikhq> make PEBBLE=path-to-pebble
00:11:47 <SimonRC> Maybe I am expecting too much of them to think about any compiler stage beyond the fecking parser
00:12:47 <ehird`> Lolcode people are retarded get over it
00:13:37 <lament> just shut up about lolcode already
00:14:53 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65853
00:14:55 <ehird`> that's too long for a BF compiler!
00:14:58 <ehird`> well. at least it dynamically reallocates the tape
00:15:21 <Pikhq> ehird`: You've obviously not seen Gregor's Brainfuck compiler.
00:15:40 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65854
00:16:07 <ehird`> now - for lang->bf compiler stage one
00:16:43 <Pikhq> ehird`: http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/egobf-0.7.1.tar.bz2 Now *this* is a long Brainfuck implementation.
00:16:44 <ehird`> http://pastie.textmate.org/65854
00:17:29 <ehird`> wtfzzor..... my hello world doesn't print
00:18:09 <ehird`> i don't handle loops!!
00:18:13 <Pikhq> ehird`: Your tape expansion bit should be inside the compiled code, not in the compiler.
00:18:27 <ehird`> Pikhq: Yes, loops will require that
00:18:31 <ehird`> It's just -- it'll be every > executed
00:18:34 <ehird`> Might be a lot of overhead.
00:18:41 <Pikhq> Otherwise, stuff like >,[>,]<[.<] will be broken.
00:19:21 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder, if you could tell the os to sigsegv when you overan some memory
00:19:32 <ehird`> yes, make it a random int
00:19:52 <Pikhq> No, even better. . .
00:20:02 <bsmntbombdood> make the tape be highest in the program's memory, then catch sigsegv and expand the tape then
00:20:21 -!- sekhmet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:20:25 -!- sekhmet has joined.
00:20:30 <Pikhq> int tmp=*(int *)NULL;
00:20:39 <oerjan> i just realized i cannot use \1 in the replacement without full fledged eval
00:20:45 <Pikhq> There. Instant SIGSEGV.
00:21:29 <Pikhq> Of course, you could just *send* SIGSEGV. . . It is, after all, a normal signal.
00:21:48 <bsmntbombdood> actually, you would just fuck malloc's bookeeping data before you went outside of the allowed memory
00:21:52 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65855
00:21:59 <ehird`> OK - now i just have to do loops
00:22:13 <ehird`> considering i don't need to do any checking
00:22:26 <oerjan> anyway what i did do is at http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ehird.pl
00:22:41 <oerjan> but as said, it doesn't handle \1 properly
00:23:36 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65856
00:23:44 <ehird`> expanding-no-checking-infinite-tape-brainfuck-to-c-compiler.
00:24:53 <ehird`> now, let's think how to use the brainfuck tape.
00:25:31 * ehird` ponders things... "use plain BF integers? or add some type headers?"
00:29:25 * oerjan commented out debug statement and added a short header comment
00:30:50 <lament> brainfuck-to-c-compiler?
00:31:57 <ehird`> i needed it according to certain specs
00:32:04 <ehird`> including overflow warnings, infinite tape etc
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00:46:12 <oklopol> <SimonRC> I assumed that it had the literal German meaning: Uber + man, rather than being someone's name, initially <<< 1. actually über in german 2. i don't think a name is worse if it's a name
00:46:36 * Pikhq is going to call his system "fucked up". . .
00:46:56 <Pikhq> (that, I believe, is the scientific name for "How the hell is that segfaulting?!?")
00:47:25 <oklopol> and this time not something easy like math
00:47:35 <oklopol> i have to do like a speech or something
00:47:51 <SimonRC> i will tell you the secret to doing a speech
00:48:05 <SimonRC> you get very interested in the subject.
00:48:17 * Pikhq goes to drive his middle fingers through the drive platters
00:48:32 <SimonRC> enough so that you start monologuing at strangers in pubs about the subject...
00:49:07 <SimonRC> you prepare a presentation by giving the speech and thinking at each point "what slide would make this bit clearer"
00:49:12 <oklopol> we did speeches already... everyone else did 1-2 min, a few 5 min, i did 10... and failed :) apparently my ideas weren't good and it's very important to look at the audience.
00:49:18 <SimonRC> thereby adding diagrams, equations, examples, etc
00:49:34 <SimonRC> if you don't like the subject you will have problems
00:50:05 <oklopol> well, the subject was basically "improving your surroundings"
00:50:08 <Pikhq> [1] 7729 segmentation fault sudo emerge -av glibc
00:50:13 <oklopol> i had about a million ideas about it
00:51:26 <oklopol> i admit my ideas might not interest most people
00:51:33 <oklopol> and i did not once look at the audience
00:51:55 <oklopol> but otherwise it was great
00:52:15 <oklopol> okay, sleep now, i'll have to wake up in 3 hours and make the german essay
00:52:30 <oklopol> but i won't, i'll sleep till 10 and fail the course \o/
00:52:52 <bsmntbombdood> my sleepyness has turned into delerium and slight drowsyness and euphoria
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09:11:54 <oklopol> hmm... i wonder if "import Std ! Graphics ! Line Kthx;" is a good syntax for importing Line :P
09:12:52 <bsmntbombdood> i am greatly traumatized now that i've learned that natalie portman has a finite erdos number
09:12:56 <oklopol> I need something to tell it the line is ending, because i want import to abide by the same rules as others
09:13:48 <oklopol> import Std ! Graphics ! Line as Line; will work fine though
09:14:18 <aarcane> Kthx is a good terminator, but you shouldn't terminate with ; unless you want to terminate with ; always. \n is usually a pretty safe terminator
09:14:19 <oklopol> "import" and "as" are just primitive functions <3
09:14:37 <oklopol> ; terminates if termination is necessary
09:15:03 <oklopol> i do not want to rely on ws, since i'm simultaneously designing an ide, and it... does things :)
09:16:21 <oklopol> ; terminates the line, but no one tells that to import, so import is left waiting for more submodules to come
09:17:42 <oklopol> actually, \n will probably be one way to end lines, since i reckon haskell uses both and it's a kinda good language
09:17:56 <oklopol> but i don't know how exactly it does that
09:18:01 <oklopol> prolly easy once i think about it
09:19:35 <oklopol> "import Std!Graphich as Public" or something might be a good way to "import *"
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15:21:47 <oklopol> * Pikhq wants a death mode for Brainfuck. <<< on it!
15:44:44 <oklopol> deadfuck is also a brilliant piece from gorgasm, i recommend you listen to it
15:48:35 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it's not tc, since i can't imagine what you can do with it... and there was an even worse deathmode that was quite similar, but i think it's proven non tc
15:49:52 <oklopol> basically, normal bitchanger, but you have to allocate each cell with X before you can do anything with it other than move over it
15:50:23 <oklopol> also, every time you allocate a cell at index n, you render all other cells divisible by n unallocatable
15:50:39 <oklopol> i mean, all other cells whose index is divisible by n
15:52:22 <oklopol> you get a nice finite memory bitchanger of n bits with ">{n} @{n} <{n}"
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20:31:54 <Pikhq> Say, would anyone here know of a good guide for learning x86 assembly?
20:33:43 <Pikhq> I need to learn a new esolang. ;)
21:23:57 <bsmntbombdood> my mom said she tried to wake me up and i (autonomously) told her i was stopping my sleep experiment
21:24:37 <lament> well, it's good you're still alive.
21:25:39 <bsmntbombdood> if my body can posses me to speak without my brain involved, i think it's pretty desperate
21:29:39 <lament> don't confuse your brain with your consciousness.
21:30:06 <lament> Consciousness is useful; however it tends to DRAMATICALLY overestimate its own importance
21:30:26 <lament> to the extent that people often think it's all they have
21:30:55 <bsmntbombdood> ok, if my brain can posses me to speak without _me_ involved
21:31:41 <lament> again, don't confuse "you" with your consciousness
21:31:55 <lament> "you" comprise much more than that
21:33:22 <lament> most of the things you do are done unconsciously
21:33:38 <lament> consciousness is a fairly limited tool
21:34:17 <lament> you have a very strange notion of identity
21:35:33 <lament> you don't think your body is part of you?
21:36:16 <oerjan> sometimes i feel that way too.
21:36:39 <bsmntbombdood> i don't know, perhaps i'm still fucked up right now
21:37:08 <lament> oerjan: you mean like bsmntbombdood ?
21:50:14 <oerjan> like my body has a mind of its own and isn't me.
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21:51:08 <oerjan> i mean, the idea that your unconscious is you is basically dependent on defining you as the opposite of the outside world.
21:51:49 <lament> oerjan: do you define others as excluding their bodies?
21:52:27 <oerjan> my body _belongs_ to me, but whether it _is_ me is something else entirely.
21:52:47 <oerjan> and i see no problem with thinking that way of others.
21:52:51 <lament> well, consciousness is the part doing the thinking, so its a bit biased
21:53:05 <lament> in particular, as i said, it tends to overestimate its own importance
21:53:34 <oerjan> i don't think that is the same.
21:53:44 <lament> which could be really bad, but thankfully the rest of the mind just ignores it most of the time
21:54:01 <lament> consciousness is not a very effective system; for one, it's really, really slow
21:54:06 <oerjan> i mean my experience contains several parts. the outside world, my body, my unconscious and my conscious.
21:54:25 <oerjan> why should all except the outside world be considered a unit?
21:54:55 <lament> it's not a unit. it has parts.
21:55:23 <oerjan> but why should they be referred to by the word "me"?
21:55:52 <lament> practical reasons as a result of interaction with other people
21:55:54 <oerjan> for all i know the unconscious could be just as large as the outside world, and have parts in common with other people.
21:56:08 <oerjan> i.e. the collective unconscious idea
21:57:01 <oerjan> and if you try to determine which part of that is _me_ then you end up looking at which parts are closest to my consciousness.
21:57:38 <oerjan> so the conscious then becomes if not all of me then still the part defining what is me.
21:58:30 <lament> i'm not sure if this is relevant
21:58:42 <oerjan> on the other hand you _could_ use the body as the reference point.
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22:00:01 <oerjan> and some religions define the soul to be the real center, and distinct again from consciousness.
22:00:47 <oerjan> all i am saying is there are several options for defining what "me" is.
22:01:09 <lament> sure, but i think mine is the most pragmatic
22:01:23 <lament> i'm not interested in philosophy or religion
22:01:24 <oerjan> it is the one that works best for other people than me.
22:01:51 <lament> where 'pragmatic' means more or less 'suitable for human interaction'
22:02:41 <lament> if you hit me, and claim being unconscious at the time, well, YOU still hit me.
22:03:18 <lament> human interaction is hard to overrate.
22:03:41 <lament> most of the higher mental functions were designed to accommodate it.
22:03:52 <oerjan> well i am responsible for it. but then so would i be if you were harmed by some item i own.
22:04:10 <lament> oerjan: no, i'm saying "you hit me"
22:04:18 <lament> oerjan: would you really dispute that?
22:04:24 <lament> "It wasn't me, it was my arm"?
22:04:34 <oerjan> i am saying that it is merely a matter of definition of "me"
22:05:43 <oerjan> now say if i faint and fall onto you from a balcony.
22:06:47 <lament> you just said "i faint and fall"
22:06:54 <oerjan> in that case my responsibility would not necessarily be larger than if something else had fallen onto you that i owned.
22:07:02 <lament> i don't care about responsibility.
22:07:10 <oerjan> i am restricted to using the definitions in English.
22:07:38 <lament> you just used "i" to include your body.
22:07:56 <lament> so we agree and shouldn't argue anymore :)
22:08:23 <lament> obviously you can make a big philosophical issue out of this, and many people do
22:08:30 <lament> i just don't really see a point
22:10:24 <oerjan> just wait until you find yourself strongly disagreeing with your body :)
22:10:50 <oerjan> but then anyone who has been ill probably has experienced that
22:13:05 <lament> would you disagree that the definition that includes the unconscious and the body is the most suited for human interaction?
22:13:40 <oerjan> for _most_ human interaction.
22:14:10 <lament> that's why it's the one built into the language - language being a tool for human interaction.
22:16:05 <lament> in any case i just don't see any reason to single out the consciousness
22:16:37 <lament> there's a lot of stuff going on in the mind, consciousness is a part of it, but it's only a small part and only useful in certain situations
22:17:06 <SimonRC> The development of The Language That Shall Not Be Named is progressing at am amazing rate. Never before has an esolang had so much input by so many people in so short a time.
22:17:16 <SimonRC> It will be the ADA of esolangs.
22:17:39 * lament screams LOLCODE and everybody shudders
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22:18:06 <lament> SimonRC: why are you bothered so
22:18:10 <SimonRC> The group are going to produce more text than any one designer could
22:18:40 <SimonRC> I will be the PL/1 of esolangs.
22:18:56 * SimonRC polls the asynchronous toastie.
22:28:14 <oerjan> Whee! http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ehird.py
22:28:34 <oerjan> Now if just ehird was here...
23:10:29 <SimonRC> IM IN UR MEETIN, BLOATIN UR LANGAGE!
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01:41:30 <SimonRC> so, after 15 mins discussing conditional keywords, we realise that we haven't decided on the significance of line-breaks
01:41:42 <SimonRC> we vote ... and get a 4-4 tie
01:46:37 <Pikhq> You know you're bored when you get an executable in 324 bytes. . .
01:47:17 <Pikhq> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html And you're really bored when you do this.
01:50:39 <SimonRC> ooh, now almost half-an-hour making a decision that one person could have made in 2 minutes
01:52:15 * SimonRC howls with laughter at the latest suggestions
01:52:40 <SimonRC> it comes to 48 possible forms of the simple two-armed conditional
01:54:03 <Pikhq> Damn, that's dumb.
01:54:31 <Pikhq> New rule: "Your language fails as an esolang when it's less esoteric than x86 assembly".
01:54:46 <SimonRC> we just voted in a 72-variation one
01:55:13 <oerjan> exponential growth, yay!
01:55:16 <SimonRC> "IZ <cond> [?] [(.|\n) YARLY] (.|\n) <code> (.|\n) [NOWAI (.|\n) <code>] KTHX"
02:09:10 <oerjan> have you reached 150 yet? :)
02:09:59 <SimonRC> no, the vote was final for the moment
02:11:44 <SimonRC> ISTR one of us diong this before
02:12:44 <Pikhq> Of course, I'm doing "Hello, world", which is a bit less trivial.
02:12:50 <Pikhq> SimonRC: What, the "really small asm program"?
02:13:22 <Pikhq> Um, yeah. That website, I think, was done by one of us.
02:13:33 <SimonRC> there was a micro-esolang, too
02:19:58 <Pikhq> Mmkay, now I'm down to 101 bytes. . .
02:21:39 <Pikhq> Now I'm down to segfault bytes.
02:21:46 <Pikhq> Just a simple "Hello, world".
02:22:00 <bsmntbombdood> have you done the elf header overlapping stuff yet?
02:22:22 <Pikhq> I can't see a way to actually fit my code *inside* the elf header.
02:23:53 <Pikhq> Hmm. . . I wonder how many bytes a jmp call would take.
02:24:32 <Pikhq> *That* much I have done.
02:24:53 <Pikhq> His second suggested overlap is broken, though.
02:27:23 <bsmntbombdood> maybe put the first part of the program inside the elf header and jmp to the rest?
02:28:08 <Pikhq> I was thinking that.
02:29:24 <Pikhq> The problem is, I can't quite figure out a) how many bytes are being used there b) how many bytes I have to actually work with.
02:29:36 <bsmntbombdood> or write "hi world" instead and put the data there
02:29:55 <Pikhq> Now, that's a thought. . .
02:30:38 <Pikhq> Now, just to figure out how many bytes my code is actually *using*.
02:30:51 <Pikhq> Preferably per instruction.
02:31:01 <Pikhq> This'd be easier if I hadn't learned assembly earlier today.
02:33:23 <Pikhq> Mmkay. Got it down to 87, thanks to the idea of putting the data in the header.
02:33:36 <SimonRC> in that time, we did what one man could do in 20 minutes
02:34:44 <Pikhq> Let's see if I can get a shorter way to exit. . .
02:35:31 <SimonRC> 25 minutes to decide on ADD, TIEMZ, NURF, and OVAR
02:35:40 <Pikhq> Segfaulting grants 79 bytes.
02:35:52 <SimonRC> just make the spec say the program must print "segfault" and exit
02:36:21 <Pikhq> Well, if *that* is all I'm going to do, all I need is the ELF header.
02:39:00 <oerjan> "Wadler later formulated a law to describe how effort was allotted to various topics: semantics is discussed half as much as syntax, syntax is discussed half as much as lexical syntax, and lexical syntax is discussed half as much as the syntax of comments.
02:39:32 <oerjan> (from A History of Haskell)
02:39:41 <SimonRC> at the end we just about managed to squeeze in a vote saying that we would have only int math initially
02:39:59 <SimonRC> though no-one bothered to say what *width* of integer
02:42:04 <oerjan> which of course leads to the obvious question: have you decided on comment syntax?
02:43:22 <oerjan> i suggest ALSO as comment continuation :)
02:43:40 <oerjan> or whatever the correct spelling is.
02:44:49 <Pikhq> bsmntbombdood: I get the feeling his last header is broken.
02:45:43 <Pikhq> Which, of course, it is.
02:47:25 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder just how slow 2**16 bit arithmatic would be
02:57:09 <Pikhq> With a bit more munging, I was able to get "Hello world\n" to fit in the ELF header.
02:58:47 <Pikhq> I wonder what the a.out specs look like.
03:37:52 <Pikhq> Mmkay. If this *worked* the way I thought, I'd have a damned small program by now.
03:39:53 <Pikhq> I, uh, don't have a.out support in-kernel.
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03:49:30 <bsmntbombdood> i think you can represent any complex number in it
03:50:58 <oerjan> it's base -4 with a twist
03:53:29 <Pikhq> Would anyone here happen to know the intimacies of the Linux a.out format well enough to tell me whether or not I'm being an idiot?
03:54:07 <GregorR-L> Pikhq: Intimacies? No. Enough to tell me whether you're being an idiot? Maybe.
03:54:42 <Pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/hello-2.asm
03:55:17 <Pikhq> I probably am doing something really stupid, like "trying to ignore the assembler's nice little 'header' and such".
03:55:29 <GregorR-L> I don't, however, speak ASM very well.
03:55:37 <Pikhq> . . . Well, that is exactly what I *am* doing stupid, probably.
03:55:49 <Pikhq> GregorR-L: Nor do I; I just learned it *today*.
03:57:00 * Pikhq would *prefer* being able to do this 'uber-tiny Hello, World' thing using a.out, just because the header is much, much smaller.
03:57:02 <oerjan> 131,132,133,120,...,110,...,100,...
03:57:02 <bsmntbombdood> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quater-imaginary_base
03:57:51 <Pikhq> I may just have to stick with my psuedo-ELF version.
03:58:06 <oerjan> and when he was in high school no less
03:58:37 <Pikhq> oerjan: So what? I've written a few heaps of code in high school. :p
04:02:14 <Pikhq> For my "Why the *hell* did you do this", working version: http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/hello.asm
04:02:29 <Pikhq> 87 bytes of "Hello, world".
04:06:33 <Pikhq> I'll get around to that later.
04:06:41 <Pikhq> I still need to beat the dead horse. :p
04:27:38 * oerjan wonders if anyone ever used the quater-imaginary base seriously in computers
04:31:00 <oerjan> maybe you could do multiplication quickly or something
04:31:18 <oerjan> exact arithmetic, anyhow
04:33:58 <Pikhq> Uh, hi. I'd like to introduce you to the mpz_t type.
04:36:06 <oerjan> i see one example: "Simplified optical complex multiplication using quater-imaginary number representation."
04:38:51 <oerjan> "But it takes a true genius (No offence Sid), to invent something as wacky as a Quater Imaginary Base Number System !"
04:39:16 <oerjan> thus we conclude that our bsmntbombdood is a genius too :)
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04:59:58 <Pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Fine. Here's something for you.
05:00:31 <Pikhq> struct real_t {mpz_t integer, fractional};
05:01:58 <Pikhq> What? That can represent all reals that fit in RAM.
05:02:36 <Pikhq> Those don't fit in RAM.
05:02:46 <Pikhq> Unless you've got a Turing macine.
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05:04:20 <Pikhq> But the Unicode "touché" is *IRC* good.
05:04:37 <Pikhq> touch\'e is only \tex good.
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05:05:34 <Pikhq> BTW, I think "touché" renders properly in recent Tex builds, anyways. ;)
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05:43:01 <bsmntbombdood> hmm, by representing strings as trees you get constant time concatenation and O(log n) time indexing
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05:59:39 <Pikhq> Mmkay, I'm thinking that my little "Hello, world" program is the smallest asm one that will run on a 2.6 kernel.
06:09:53 <Pikhq> There's a 59 byte one, but it won't run on my system.
06:15:46 <Pikhq> Runs on Gregor's box and Leibniz.
06:16:12 <Pikhq> Linux gdeskgor 2.6.17-14mdv #1 SMP Wed May 9 21:11:43 MDT 2007 i686 Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.80GHz GNU/Linux
06:16:24 <Pikhq> Linux leibniz 2.6.8-3-386 #1 Thu Sep 7 05:39:52 UTC 2006 i686 GNU/Linux
06:16:31 <Pikhq> Notice something in common there?
06:22:29 <GregorR-L> Other than i686 GNU/Linux? No, not really.
06:24:16 <Pikhq> What, the "it runs on those"?
06:24:32 <Pikhq> . . . Don't expect coherency from me.
06:24:45 <Pikhq> Please, don't. I've been doing a whee bit too much x86.
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16:13:07 <SimonRC> oklopol: is that a new sexual deviancy?
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16:23:27 <oklopol> no, that's my little bother.
16:23:53 <oklopol> he has a scoping disorder.
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17:38:01 <SimonRC> also, I am sure I have seen him elsenet...
18:07:02 <oklopol> yes exactly, it's very hard :<
18:08:11 <oklopol> even harder trying to explain a problem trying to keep it a double entendre
18:08:32 <oklopol> i now have my constants defined in every function.
18:52:07 <oklopol> python has neither lexical nor dynamical scoping
18:52:37 <oklopol> so... how do i make a global i don't have to explicitly "include" in every function with "global"
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19:11:04 <Pikhq> Globals are either prefixed with ::, or included in your function's namespace with "global" or "upvar".
19:32:10 * Pikhq is too much of a Tcler for his own good
19:43:38 <jix_> some things are really hard to phrase
19:50:36 <SimonRC> I occasionally end up expressing things with explicit qualifiers
20:07:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:09:54 * SimonRC boggles at the number of letters in "haemmorrhage".
20:10:08 <SimonRC> what's wrong with just "hemorage"?
20:10:37 <oerjan> what's wrong with just "bogles"?
20:10:57 <lament> what's wrong with just ""?
20:11:17 <SimonRC> oerjan: "bogles" would be prnounces differently
20:12:01 <oerjan> actually it is just haemorrhage.
20:13:10 <oerjan> ae is obviously from a greek diphthong, spelling latinized.
20:15:14 <oerjan> wikipedia says AE:e, BE:ae
20:16:47 <oerjan> anyway norwegian does not seem to have that word but we spell another word "hemoroider"
20:17:05 <oerjan> (google says about equally with or without double r)
20:17:33 <oerjan> we have a policy of simplifying spellings
20:17:42 <SimonRC> English is usually the best language for technical vocab.
20:18:02 <SimonRC> English has a policy of keeping the original language's spelling.
20:18:22 <lament> especially in words like "jalapeno"
20:18:31 <Pikhq> English has a hell of a lot of technical vocabulary. . .
20:18:44 <SimonRC> most computer terms, for example
20:18:56 <Pikhq> It's also got a very, very confusing system of spelling, simply because it uses the spelling for the original language.
20:19:05 <oerjan> anyway norwegian also seems to be less willing to use excessively technical terms for common medical words
20:19:25 <SimonRC> The French, being the closest "foreign" country, naturally hate anything English (linguistically).
20:19:58 <Pikhq> Which is kind of ironic, considering that they forced *their* language into ours.
20:20:06 <oerjan> although we are not as fanatical as the icelandic, who translate nearly everything.
20:20:34 <SimonRC> "Hallelujiah" "café" "ballet", etc
20:20:55 <lament> english is just a gigantic pile of garbage, linguistically.
20:21:13 <lament> it's so complicated, most linguists never bother studying it.
20:21:13 * SimonRC recalls PTerry's remark on that.
20:21:25 <SimonRC> the verb declensions are ok
20:21:26 <Pikhq> English is ever language.
20:21:29 <Pikhq> Every. Single. One.
20:21:41 <SimonRC> and we have got rid of fucking noun genders
20:21:46 <oklopol> <Pikhq> English has a hell of a lot of technical vocabulary. . .
20:21:46 <oklopol> <SimonRC> most computer terms, for example
20:21:48 <Pikhq> (there we go. I used 3 different linguistic sources in a single sentence!)
20:21:52 <oklopol> <SimonRC> The French, being the closest "foreign" country, naturally hate anything English (linguistically).
20:21:53 <oklopol> <Pikhq> Which is kind of ironic, considering that they forced *their* language into ours.
20:21:59 <oerjan> i heard there is an indian language which considers all english words included in theirs...
20:22:08 <Pikhq> I don't *think* so.
20:22:26 <SimonRC> Ok, so your hand is male, the fingers are female, the thumb is neuter, and the wrist is female of neuter depending on which word you use. WFT?!
20:23:12 <Pikhq> "And then the tsunami pummeled the fjord". There we go. One sentence, 4 languages.
20:23:40 <lament> SimonRC: it depends on how the word sounds, not on what the thing is.
20:24:06 <lament> SimonRC: in the languages i'm familiar with, anyway (spanish, russian, ukrainian, hebrew, portuguese)
20:24:13 <oerjan> french is not that easy.
20:24:23 <Pikhq> "... after the cumulonimbus clouds came in, following the Czar."
20:24:53 <oerjan> the germanic languages with genders are not so easy either
20:25:09 <oerjan> in both cases most endings have turned into -e or nothing
20:25:42 <oerjan> while in spanish/russian the endings still can be several vowels, mostly correlated with gender
20:26:01 <SimonRC> noice that "came" uses an strong anglo-saxon past tense, whereas "pummelled" uses a weak one.
20:27:36 <Pikhq> Even our Germanic roots are muddled. . . I think it's 4 or 5 Germanic languages that contribute to our *early* language.
20:27:40 <oerjan> on the other hand i read somewhere that you can guess most french words by the last letters, but it's a bit more complicated
20:27:42 <lament> oerjan: this will probably be eventually followed up with removal of gender from germanic langs
20:27:53 <oerjan> english has already done so
20:28:06 <lament> not in our lifetime of course
20:28:11 <oerjan> swedish and danish has collapsed masculine and feminine
20:28:14 <lament> in the meantime, just learn spanish instead :)
20:28:30 <oklopol> every natural language will die pretty soon.
20:28:35 <Pikhq> Ne, ne, ne! Lernu Esperanton.
20:28:38 <lament> the overwhelming majority of words have "regular" gender
20:28:48 <Pikhq> oklopol: Languages don't die, they blend.
20:29:08 <lament> the big ones aren't in any danger at teh moment, though.
20:29:11 <Pikhq> They 'die' by merging into another language.
20:29:11 <oklopol> they die if no one remembers them anymore.
20:29:16 <lament> Pikhq: no, often they just die
20:29:33 <lament> Pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_death
20:30:05 <lament> the majority of languages currently spoken are in immediate danger of death.
20:30:13 <lament> it's a serious issue for linguists.
20:30:43 <lament> (immediate, as in right now, not in a couple hundred years)
20:30:58 <oklopol> they will merge into english first, prolly, then, hopefully, they all die and ppl start using a _good_ language, an artificially made one.
20:31:00 <Pikhq> I stand corrected.
20:31:01 <lament> within 1-2 generations
20:31:15 <lament> many currently still spoken languages will die
20:31:16 <SimonRC> oklopol: that last phrase is an oxmoron
20:31:34 <SimonRC> The problem is that no speakable language offers that much over any other, apart from the people who use it.
20:31:47 <oklopol> as i also am an ox moron, you will have to tell me what that is
20:32:44 <lament> oklopol: if everybody in the world speaks one language... that will just suck
20:32:56 <SimonRC> the artificial langs can;t really be much better than any natural ones
20:33:00 <oklopol> perhaps, why not make more than one language?
20:33:20 <lament> languages are highly evolved tools
20:33:46 <oerjan> perhaps in a few hundred years spoken languages will give way to visual cybernetically transmitted ones...
20:33:49 <lament> just as you can't design an organism better suited for survival that the naturally evolved ones, you can't design a language that's better than the ones we have
20:34:05 <lament> the existing stuff is just too good
20:34:09 <oerjan> (unless we somehow find a "natural" telepathy)
20:34:18 <lament> yes, but you're ignorant
20:34:32 <SimonRC> beyond the obviously awkard things, like having 93 different phonemic clicks and 8273 verb declensions, there is not much you can do to make a language better
20:34:47 <lament> SimonRC: that's not "awkward", that's "expressive"
20:34:52 <Pikhq> lament: I'm going to beg to differ. . .
20:35:11 <SimonRC> it mostly comes down to libraries, i.e. vocab, which English is good at
20:35:26 <oklopol> i don't have anything on paper about this yet, so you will have to wait a few years for my arguments.
20:35:34 <lament> English is an excellent language. I love it.
20:35:39 <Pikhq> I can make an organism which is *much* better than other organisms in certain niches.
20:35:46 <lament> Of course I love the other ones too.
20:35:48 <SimonRC> If you increase the density, people end up speaking slower by ecxactly the same amount because everything is more fragile
20:36:10 <lament> SimonRC: pretty much; nevertheless, it's good for things like poetry
20:36:32 <SimonRC> if you make it more logical, you find that many people don't think logically, and that they want to express some compilcated things often and some simple things rarely
20:36:33 <lament> SimonRC: a language that doesn't support poetry well is not particularly interesting :)
20:36:55 <SimonRC> that last point is of particular note...
20:37:29 <lament> english is very expressive thanks mostly to vocab
20:37:34 <SimonRC> learning some Set theory, Prolog, and Haskell did far more for me than 4 years of French
20:37:47 <lament> SimonRC: how are those things at all related?
20:38:03 <SimonRC> well, languages are supposed to offer different views on the world
20:38:04 <Pikhq> Esperanto bonas por poezio, mi pensas.
20:38:26 <lament> esperanto is terrible simply because of the suffixes :)
20:38:39 <SimonRC> At first, I kept getting frustrated by that lack of HoF in English.
20:38:40 <Pikhq> Ne, ne, ne. Tre bona!
20:38:42 <lament> of course, that's not really an issue
20:38:55 <lament> just write unrhymed poetry, like many natural langs do
20:39:13 <lament> but small vocab is also an impediment
20:39:29 <SimonRC> you just said an empty line!
20:39:48 <Pikhq> Not my fault you don't do Unicode.
20:40:27 <lament> anyway having many languages is nice :)
20:40:55 <lament> SimonRC: having many languages is more stable than having one
20:41:08 <lament> if you have one, it will break apart into several
20:41:15 <Pikhq> SimonRC: The history of the human race would like to come up and tell you about this bit about "always having multiple languages".
20:41:38 <SimonRC> I meant it isn't stable *now*.
20:41:44 <lament> SimonRC: latin is an excellent example, and it's happening slowly with spanish and english
20:41:47 <SimonRC> we seem to be heading for a few dozen
20:42:02 <lament> SimonRC: hopefully more
20:42:13 <SimonRC> lament: gobal communications may slow down the differentiation
20:42:18 <lament> SimonRC: there's a lot of, for example, tiny european languages that coexist with the main language and aren't dying
20:42:55 <lament> a whole LOT of langs are dying in africa and south america and australia
20:42:59 <lament> they will most likely die
20:43:45 <lament> i believe there's something like 6000 at the moment and we're heading for 600 very very soon :(
20:43:58 <lament> but 600 is still decent
20:44:45 <Pikhq> I get the feeling that the number of languages in existence is cyclic. . .
20:45:02 <Pikhq> We got a ton of languages dying or converging at one point, and later, we get them breaking up. . .
20:45:14 <lament> Pikhq: no, globalization makes it smaller
20:45:23 <lament> Pikhq: it's been declining for a while
20:45:33 <lament> (discovery of america was a biggie there)
20:45:39 <Pikhq> Yeah, it *does*, but I can't help but feel that it more changes the intensity of the cycle.
20:46:05 <lament> Pikhq: when latin broke apart, the number of parts was much smaller than the number of languages that died as latin expanded
20:46:07 <oklopol> next cycle starts when when the human race disperses into outer space
20:46:30 <lament> Pikhq: we used to have many small tribes living pretty much separatly
20:46:40 <lament> Pikhq: so, a huge number of languages, each one with only a couple hundred speakers
20:46:48 <lament> this is still the situation in some parts of the world
20:46:48 <Pikhq> lament: Yeah. The increasing globalisation *changes the intensity* of the cycle.
20:46:58 <lament> all these tiny languages will surely die
20:47:15 <oerjan> no, it changes the basic isolation parameter
20:47:26 <Pikhq> You don't disprove my point by proving it; you *really* don't.
20:47:31 <lament> Pikhq: you think things like the internet do nothing to decrease the number of languages?
20:47:56 <lament> and to "stabilize" existing ones
20:48:12 <Pikhq> lament: Of *course* I do. It's just that that means that when the cycle goes around to *increase* the number of languages, there will be fewer languages at *that* peak than the previous one.
20:48:20 <oerjan> the internet _could_ stabilize a language that was thinly dispersed
20:48:23 <lament> spanish, for example, was falling apart steadily
20:48:31 <lament> but now the process is slowed down by media and pop culture
20:48:35 <oklopol> in finland it's mostly the less intellectual ones that adapt english into their spoken finnish
20:48:42 <lament> as people in spain watch latin american movies, etc
20:48:57 <Pikhq> Although the languages would probably split apart *less* simply because of globalisation, it will still happen.
20:48:57 <oklopol> i doubt each and every word i write.
20:49:02 <Pikhq> (especially with the smaller ones)
20:49:33 <lament> usually languages split after a big expansion of a single language followed by the collapse of the associated empire
20:49:34 <Pikhq> Consider Esperanto. . . And the *class* of languages that have formed around it, the Esperantidons.
20:49:38 <oerjan> it does not change the _intensity_ of the cycle but its balance point
20:49:48 <Pikhq> oerjan: Fair enough.
20:50:06 <oerjan> and we don't yet know whether the balance point has shifted so far that it is now 1.
20:50:19 <lament> it's "cyclic" in the same death as the "circle of life" is cyclic
20:50:27 <lament> it helps to think of languages as living things
20:52:23 <lament> (thinking of them as species is more accurate but less exciting)
20:52:25 <oerjan> like bacteria perhaps, which also have the ability to merge genetic material
20:52:38 <oklopol> i just removed about a grapeful of my hair 8|
20:53:18 <SimonRC> you measure hair by the grapful?
20:53:29 <lament> the reason artificial languages can't work is that they'll stop being artificial as they're used
20:53:30 <oerjan> oklopol: that may or may not be a bad thing, dependent on whether you are a good self-hairdresser...
20:53:47 <oklopol> lament: not if that's not allowed.
20:53:52 <lament> oklopol: not allowed??
20:54:07 <oerjan> lament: that's what has happened with several signed languages, i guess
20:54:11 <SimonRC> oklopol: what arrangement is you hair in?
20:54:19 <lament> oerjan: that's a good example actually
20:54:21 <Pikhq> lament: A good few artificial languages are just *meant* to be artificial at the start, with the *hope* that they'll become natural.
20:54:30 <lament> Pikhq: well, the problem is
20:54:36 <lament> Pikhq: say you have esperanto, it's nice and regular
20:54:45 <Pikhq> Not true, but anyways.
20:54:56 <lament> Pikhq: if people actually spoke it, it would become irregular in no time
20:55:03 <lament> Pikhq: as i understand, this has already started to happen
20:55:10 <lament> this did happen to sign languages
20:55:16 <Pikhq> It's also forked into the Esperantidos. . .
20:55:42 <Pikhq> (Some, like Ido, are mutually intelligible, so are more like dialects)
20:55:50 <SimonRC> someone comes along and decides to add voicing harmony, then they dike out the voicing distingtion on sybilants, then fuck around with it some more, and before you know it, it's and irregular mess
20:56:26 <lament> SimonRC: many things happen naturally, without anybody specifically "deciding" to do stuff
20:57:36 <lament> the only way to avoid changing a language is to not use it :)
20:57:51 <lament> (case in point: hebrew)
20:57:58 <oerjan> however some language changes probably really started as deliberate in-jokes
20:58:16 <Pikhq> Or to make it so delicate that a change will tumble the whole thing down. . .
20:58:18 <lament> hebrew was revived after 2K years of beind dead
20:58:35 <lament> so it is less "evolved" than other languages
20:58:49 <Pikhq> Some sort of esoteric natural language. . .
20:58:58 <lament> the people responsible for revival actually made up a whole bunch of words
20:59:13 <lament> for things that weren't around 2000 years ago
20:59:18 <oerjan> Pikhq: if you make it too delicate then it will not work in noisy environments
20:59:42 <Pikhq> oerjan: You could just as well make the *grammer* far to delicate, instead of the phonemes.
21:00:07 <lament> Pikhq: people will just simplify it then.
21:00:19 <lament> this is happening in many languages
21:00:49 <oerjan> Pikhq: but if there is redundancy then there _will_ be possibility for compression
21:00:49 <lament> eg latin lost its cases and several verb tenses
21:01:40 <Pikhq> Hmm. . . The Malbolge of esoteric languages?
21:01:47 <lament> oerjan: and if there's no redundancy, people will introduce it, because redundancy is useful
21:02:02 <oerjan> although several new tenses were added, so romance languages may actually be more complicated on that point
21:02:11 <lament> oerjan: i don't think they are.
21:02:20 <lament> oerjan: and spanish is losing some tenses too
21:02:37 <oerjan> lament: i just recall someone saying so
21:03:18 <oerjan> it may depend on if you count the compound tenses as well, i guess
21:04:37 <lament> spanish lost future subjunctive
21:04:45 <lament> "The future subjunctive is rarely used in modern Spanish and mostly appears in old texts, legal documents, and certain expressions"
21:06:25 <oklopol> most recent changes in finnish are just that a few complex tenses have died because the majority of finnish ppl don't know how to use them
21:06:28 <oerjan> one of the tenses formed after Latin from merging infinitive with haber, i guess?
21:07:37 -!- Trey_ has joined.
21:08:10 -!- Trey_ has changed nick to W|cked.
21:13:48 <SimonRC> W|cked: are you one of the language-the-shall-not-be-named devs
21:14:36 <SimonRC> (the actually-nothing-wrong-with-it-but-getting-excessive-attention language)
21:28:21 <SimonRC> Did you hear about their 2-armed IF?
21:29:14 <SimonRC> W|cked: Due to various compromises between everyone's different ideas, it comes in 72 different forms, all functionally identical.
21:29:34 <SimonRC> I was on the comittee that decided that
21:29:55 <SimonRC> Eris a god who gets results.
21:30:25 <W|cked> For what language are we talking about?
21:31:38 <SimonRC> I'll dig out the description
21:32:00 <oerjan> note that they are not 72 _completely_ different forms, just a form with several independent variations
21:32:05 <SimonRC> we voted in the following: "IZ <cond> [?] [(.|\n) YARLY] (.|\n) <code> (.|\n) [NOWAI (.|\n) <code>] KTHX"
21:33:29 <oerjan> a lot of that comes from treating . and \n as equivalent.
21:33:50 <oerjan> which actually sounds sensible.
21:34:15 <SimonRC> we also decided thaat everything is a 1d array, I think
21:34:18 <oerjan> haskell does the same with ; and \n
21:34:36 <oerjan> for the right definition of \n
21:34:49 <SimonRC> actually it has some slightly-compilcated rules about turning whitespace into ;{}
21:35:08 <SimonRC> the grammar is in terms of {}; , not whitespace
21:35:53 <oerjan> without that you get 2*2*1*1*2 = 8
21:36:14 <oerjan> python may also be similar
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21:38:17 <oerjan> what's that YARLY about?
21:39:07 -!- iamchrist has changed nick to aarcane.
21:39:39 <oklopol> "noway" is "else if(false)"?
21:40:26 <oerjan> IZ - YARLY - NOWAI - KTHZ = IF - THEN - ELSE - END, i guess
21:41:00 <oerjan> not _that_ strange, apart from the variations on YARLY
21:41:46 <lament> why are we discussing lolcode
21:42:01 <oerjan> hm, in fact that is a bit broken, you can have ? . YARLY
21:42:58 <lament> SimonRC: you have some kind of unhealthy interest in this language. You keep bringing it up.
21:43:32 <lament> at least edit its esolang page then :)
21:44:29 <oerjan> hard to do when it is still under construction
21:44:39 <Pikhq> SimonRC: Learn a less odd language, like assembly.
21:45:10 <lament> lolcode doesn't seem particularly odd from what i've heard about it
21:45:25 <lament> it seems the developers are not knowledgeable enough to introduce non-standard features
21:45:40 <lament> (not knowledgeable and not imaginative enough)
21:45:49 <Pikhq> Fine. Learn a *more* odd language.
21:58:23 <SimonRC> how do you lot remember who everyone is on this channel?
21:58:31 <SimonRC> there are so many here now
21:59:02 <lament> and i'm pretty sure you're SimonRC
21:59:11 <lament> those others, i have no idea
21:59:36 <SimonRC> but I forget things like whether GregorR or RogerTheGreat is the on with the hats.
21:59:44 <Pikhq> That would be Gregor.
22:00:07 <SimonRC> mst of you blur together a lot for me
22:00:18 <oerjan> i'm the one who has far too many towels.
22:00:30 <Pikhq> Even me, Mr "I <3 PEBBLE to much"?
22:01:32 <oerjan> well, do you forget things like that about people outside the net?
22:02:53 <oerjan> gregorR should be easy, we have pictures of him.
22:03:50 <oerjan> rogerthegreat is a bit vague to me too.
22:06:30 <oerjan> i guess information sort of accretes on people until it reaches critical mass
22:07:17 <lament> oerjan is the gay norwegian farmer
22:07:30 <lament> and fizzie is the retired scuba diver with 7 cats
22:08:34 <oerjan> Pikhq is the obnoxious 9 year old with plans for world domination.
22:09:48 <Pikhq> Feeling 'complemented' here.
22:10:36 <oerjan> Lament is the Russian mafia hitman.
22:11:11 <lament> people who know that little factoid tend to not live for very long
22:11:48 <lament> oerjan: congrats, you just doomed everyone in the channel
22:12:24 <oerjan> oh that's ok, just part of my plans for world domination. besides i had to kill them anyhow since you revealed i was gay.
22:13:04 <oklopol> i have a complete personality assigned to all of you.
22:13:07 <lament> i thought that was public knowledge, hence the oerjan.isgay.com website and all that
22:13:21 <oklopol> it just might be biased for those who talk little.
22:13:42 <lament> let's just ban all those who talk little
22:14:59 <oklopol> lament... i think of you as a connection between functional and imperative programming... i have no idea where that has come from :)
22:15:02 <oerjan> indeed i had to move out of the closet. it got too full of towels.
22:16:11 <oklopol> plus, i have a who-is-friends-with-whom diagram in my head, i guess deduced from conversations of small groups
22:16:54 <lament> I mostly play music and take pictures and do no esoteric programming.
22:17:01 <lament> I did, however, take a course with cpressey at one point.
22:17:09 <oklopol> oh, ah, lament is friends with GregorR yet talks about math, GregorR i've mostly seen talking about c++.
22:17:25 <lament> (not that cpressey is ever around)
22:17:30 <oklopol> lament: you have a does-a-lot brand on you.
22:17:57 <SimonRC> I can't remember which of you is the other one who konws Haskell...
22:18:01 <lament> oh, and i put up falsebot which inspired egobot
22:18:22 <oklopol> and... SimonRC i guess, a bit
22:18:56 <SimonRC> "Oooh, like, we can do duck typing. Yay!"
22:19:19 <oerjan> where is that ehird guy again? i finally got his little language implemented after i switched from Perl to Python
22:19:26 <SimonRC> and there is no conflict between cowboy.draw() and sprite.draw(), nosiree
22:19:51 <SimonRC> (note: Haskell can resolve that ambiguity just fine)
22:20:27 <oerjan> with modules, but then so can python
22:20:36 <SimonRC> nah, python isn;t a bad language at all
22:20:40 <oklopol> oerjan: i made some programs with sadol when <don't remember name> was around, and he then disappeared for a few months
22:21:11 <oklopol> i guess that'll happen to you too
22:21:19 <SimonRC> It's just that my experienc of it is spending half an hour implementing some algebraic data types, then realising that it would be easier in a language with native support for the darned things
22:23:20 <oerjan> i am sure some people have the opposite experience with objects in a functional language
22:30:11 <oklopol> why do i still have to write essays on paper... i now have to erase about 70 words just to add one sentence i accidentally left out.
22:30:30 <oklopol> i'm so in the conversation.
22:30:38 <oerjan> you are not allowed to use a printout?
22:32:16 <SimonRC> do it on computer first, then copy it out longhand?
22:32:48 <oklopol> yeah... that's what i should've done.
22:33:13 <oklopol> i finished the essay right on time, the night before i should've returned it
22:33:34 <oklopol> but it took me 6 months to finally copy it on paper and turn it in :)
22:35:14 <oklopol> plus this makes no sense since my handwriting is undecipherable
22:57:17 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
22:58:09 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
22:58:17 * Pikhq still doesn't appreciate being called a 9 year old. . .
22:58:26 <Pikhq> That's an insult to 9 year olds everywhere, I fear.
22:58:59 <oerjan> would 99 year old be better?
22:59:15 <Pikhq> I'm not quite that senile.
22:59:49 <Pikhq> You can call me that if I get a hip replacement.
22:59:53 <oerjan> but your perception is clearly distorted by your condition.
23:01:48 <Pikhq> Of course it's distorted by my 17-year-old-ness.
23:02:53 <oerjan> well, 17 year old dogs are often senile.
23:03:13 <oerjan> (you thought no one knew you were a dog on the internet?)
23:03:15 <Pikhq> I'm a member of Homo sapiens, last I checked.
23:03:26 <lament> i thought only oerjan was homo
23:03:28 <Pikhq> . . . Fine. I'm only a dog when I'm online.
23:03:35 <Pikhq> When I'm offline, I change species.
23:04:02 <Pikhq> And a genius one at that.
23:10:11 <oklopol> wow, ich bin fucking fertig :)
23:11:14 <oklopol> following conversations and playing irc trivia i write 1 wpm on average
23:12:10 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i'll never have to write another essay in german or swedish, excluding matriculation.
23:13:01 <Pikhq> One word per minute?
23:13:05 <Pikhq> That's a bit. . . Slow.
23:13:12 <oerjan> und there war viel rejoicing.
23:13:46 <Pikhq> ARGH!!! GERMANISH!
23:15:38 <oklopol> it's a bit slow, that exactly was my point
23:16:12 <oklopol> of course, standard deviation is needed before jumping into conclusions.
23:16:24 <lament> germany outlawed hacking tools
23:16:26 <Pikhq> Oh, you mean the average for essay writing. . .
23:16:43 <Pikhq> lament: I think their definition is vague enough to include the human brain.
23:16:55 <oerjan> Pikhq: have you seen Folkspraak?
23:17:44 <Pikhq> Why would I care about the people's speaking?
23:18:07 <oklopol> usually you hear it, now see.
23:21:16 <oerjan> it was an auxiliary Germanish language that we discussed on the conlang mailing list years ago. I am surprised to see it has a (disputed notability) Wikipedia article, and (not as surprisingly) has split into several versions.
23:21:24 <oklopol> tonight, i'm gonna go to sleep early! ------>
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23:27:39 <lament> Pikhq was on a conlang list?
23:28:39 <SimonRC> I am on CONLANG-L and the ZBB.
23:34:41 <lament> quoting wp: "there is no article in Latin, Sanskrit, Persian or in some modern Indo-European languages such as standard Russian and Czech."
23:34:49 <lament> what's this non-standard russian that has articles
23:42:29 <lament> oh, russian wikipedia has some info
23:42:48 <oerjan> you mean it actually exists?
23:43:05 <oerjan> (that non-standard russian)
23:43:39 <lament> the example given is from late-1600s church language.
23:43:58 <GregorR-L> Anybody know of a good algorithm/library for comparing images more intelligently than just pixel differences?
23:45:20 <oerjan> the original slavic church language was old Bulgarian, wasn't it. and Bulgarian has articles.
23:45:39 <oerjan> not that there is necessarily a connection.
23:45:42 <lament> yes, that's how it got there.
23:45:47 <lament> yes, there's likely a connection.
23:50:07 <oerjan> what does "skoal (dip) declension" mean? It's in the article on Bulgarian.
23:52:19 <oerjan> the reason i am not sure if there is a connection is because i don't know how recent Bulgarian articles are
23:53:04 <oerjan> it was changed from "noun" to "skoal (dip)" without comment.
23:54:36 <oerjan> i'll change it into "case", me thinks.
23:55:00 <Pikhq> GregorR-L: Raster->SVG, diff svg1 svg2
23:56:07 <GregorR-L> ......................................... no :P
23:56:53 <Pikhq> Hmm. . . You *could* do something a bit lengthy by comparing color values, edges, etc. . .
23:57:01 <Pikhq> But I'm not sure that's "Good".