←2004-04 2004-05 2004-06→ ↑2004 ↑all
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01:31:17 <andreou> i've been working on the site. turns out that i can create some mean layouts :)
01:32:02 <andreou> http://meme.b9.com/clog/esoteric/04.04.30
01:32:07 <andreou> http://meme.b9.com/clog/esoteric/04.05.01
01:32:14 <andreou> when i /quit, time stops :-)
01:38:46 <andreou> xm, the wiki is still to be coded.
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01:44:20 <fizzie> waah, did the time stop again?
01:44:48 <fizzie> phew, I can still irc.
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02:16:32 <andreou> hehe hey, mad html skills!
02:16:45 <andreou> eh, psychotic, to be exact.
02:17:05 -!- andreou has set topic: http://bitrot.ee.teiath.gr/esoteric/ please provide feedback. the wiki will be ready Really Soon Now..
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03:49:55 <andreou> hm need perl help, anyone alive?
03:57:49 <heatsink> I might be able to help
03:58:07 <andreou> good
03:58:09 <heatsink> Here's some help: use python instead :)
03:58:15 <heatsink> What's the problem?
03:58:21 <andreou> hm i would, but i didn't have it on the local unix box :)
03:58:26 <andreou> i have this code:
03:58:36 <andreou> my $html_header = \
03:58:36 <andreou> '<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
03:58:36 <andreou> <html lang="en">
03:58:39 <andreou> ... more stuff ...
03:58:40 <andreou> ';
03:58:48 <heatsink> ok
03:58:52 <andreou> and i try to print it with print $html_header;
03:59:01 <andreou> and the only thing i get is SCALAR(0x211d90)
03:59:16 <andreou> it prints the internal representation or whatever, and not the actual text.
04:00:55 <heatsink> Same thing doesn't happen for me
04:01:19 <andreou> i'm on 5.6.1
04:01:33 <heatsink> I apparently have 5.8.3
04:02:08 <andreou> i'm not sure that this is really what's different.
04:02:43 <heatsink> I noticed that when I print \$html_header then I get what you get
04:02:54 <heatsink> What happens if you print $$html_header?
04:03:12 <andreou> heh
04:03:13 <andreou> :)
04:03:40 <heatsink> hmm?
04:03:48 <andreou> k works now
04:04:08 <andreou> not sure why, though :) .
04:04:18 <heatsink> Maybe it was that extra backslash? :)
04:04:53 <andreou> 'extra'?
04:05:01 <andreou> oh, you think?
04:05:04 <andreou> let's see...
04:05:28 <andreou> shit, yeah.
04:05:35 <andreou> corrolary: perl is illogical.
04:06:32 <heatsink> Is there a name for the type symbols that go in front of Perl variables?
04:06:52 <heatsink> Hungarian punctuation or something?
04:07:06 <andreou> you mean like $sSomeScalar?
04:07:10 <heatsink> yea
04:07:20 <andreou> yes, i think it's hungarian naming
04:07:28 <andreou> did you check out the site?
04:07:39 <heatsink> no
04:07:48 <andreou> well, do so :)
04:08:20 <heatsink> I love the color scheme
04:08:38 <heatsink> and layout
04:08:53 <andreou> heh thanks :)
04:09:01 <andreou> the wikied code is what you'll hate :-)
04:09:52 <heatsink> I think you misspelled it
04:09:56 <heatsink> It's "wicked"
04:10:04 <heatsink> ;)
04:10:10 <andreou> i know it's wicked
04:10:12 <andreou> em, "wicked" i mean.
04:10:26 <andreou> it's wiki-ed -> wikied (pronounced "wicked")
04:10:30 <andreou> you know, wicked languages
04:10:49 <heatsink> oh, ok
04:11:21 * heatsink doesn't turn 'wikied' into the same sound
04:11:36 * heatsink will get it right next time
04:11:44 <heatsink> Also, you need a space between the b and the d
04:11:52 <heatsink> in feedback
04:12:02 <andreou> i know, it wraps around though, so i bugged it :)
04:12:27 <heatsink> k
04:14:11 <andreou> anyway, i'm back to perl
04:14:13 <andreou> thanks :)
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07:41:36 <andreou> damned language, that perl.
07:41:51 * heatsink agrees
07:42:04 <andreou> i'm rewriting wikied in, and it proceeds rapidly.
07:42:38 <andreou> i'm uploading the new layout of esoteric now, it's better than the previous (i hope)
07:42:41 <heatsink> That sounds marvelous, but I suspect it's moreso because of a grammatical error
07:42:58 <heatsink> You're rewriting wikied in, and it proceeds rapidly?
07:43:00 <andreou> are you calling my grammar a liar? :)
07:43:06 <andreou> ah, in.
07:43:07 <andreou> yes, in c.
07:43:11 <heatsink> ok :)
07:43:12 <andreou> my grammar lies.
07:43:43 <andreou> plus, if i statically link the executable i won't have to un-chroot apache
07:43:52 * heatsink has been experimenting with lil' computer-generated 2d abstract image algorithms
07:44:06 <andreou> any pretty pictures?
07:44:15 <heatsink> Not yet, just blobs
07:44:26 <heatsink> I gotta tune the algorithm methinks
07:44:31 <andreou> blobs can be interesting, with the help of edwin.
07:45:05 <heatsink> There are free wiki sources too, if you wanted to do that
07:45:24 <heatsink> even just have them for reference
07:45:27 <andreou> i know, but i thought i'd like a little adventure.
07:45:47 * andreou is listening to laika
07:45:53 <andreou> heatsink where are you from?
07:46:14 * heatsink is from usa
07:46:18 <andreou> i have to darken the 'contents' td background...
07:46:20 <andreou> which state?
07:46:24 <heatsink> cali
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07:46:36 <andreou> lament, rejoice!
07:47:03 <heatsink> contents links need a little contrast
07:47:05 <andreou> fizzie oh, i just forgot to turn off the multiverse rtc, that's why you could irc (i'm a poet...)
07:49:09 <heatsink> Ah, now I'm starting to get interesting stuff
07:49:18 <heatsink> Now that I've detected a misplaced parenthesis :)
07:49:28 <lament> oh
07:49:31 * lament rejoices
07:49:38 <lament> i love broken links!
07:49:46 <andreou> the wiki is being worked on
07:49:52 <andreou> i darkened the bgcolor.
07:50:10 <andreou> heh tfts suck for webdev.
07:50:36 <heatsink> tft?
07:52:08 <andreou> yeah, i use a laptop as my workstation
07:58:10 <lament> why do laptops suck for webdev? They run vim as good as any other computer.
07:58:49 <andreou> not laptops, tfts.
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08:02:44 <heatsink> ah, something a little interesting, now
08:03:14 * heatsink uses his ol' website that's getting cluttered for a quick demo
08:03:20 <heatsink> http://www.geocities.com/noktakanto/cgimg.html
08:04:19 <andreou> it's nice
08:04:22 <andreou> like bloodcells
08:05:14 <heatsink> thx
08:05:49 <andreou> ftp> open ftp.openbsd.org
08:05:49 <andreou> Connected to openbsd.sunsite.ualberta.ca.
08:05:49 <andreou> 421 There are too many connected users, please try later.
08:05:49 <andreou> heh
08:05:53 <heatsink> I didn't think I'd come up with an algorithm in 4 hours
08:05:57 <andreou> i should have done it nine hours ago.
08:06:15 <heatsink> what are all these canadians doing? They shoudl be asleep!
08:06:37 <andreou> they are giving us somebody to blaim.
08:06:38 <andreou> blame
08:07:09 <andreou> in any case, duth is available if you want the latest obsd.
08:07:18 <andreou> ftp://ftp.duth.gr/pub/OpenBSD/3.5/
08:07:22 <andreou> xm, or not.
08:07:24 <andreou> heh
08:07:37 <andreou> THOSE DAMNED CANADIANS.
08:08:38 <heatsink> Figuring out an algorithm for making hyperdispersed random dots is hard
08:09:23 <heatsink> Also, "hyperdispersed" is a word that doesn't seem to be used outside of ecology. We should fix that.
08:36:07 -!- andreou has set topic: http://bitrot.ee.teiath.gr/esoteric/ please provide feedback. the wiki will be ready Really Soon Now. -- language of the week: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/ook.html write something in/for ook..
08:38:52 <heatsink> the orange-on-white text is still hard to read...
08:39:08 <andreou> on which white?
08:39:21 <heatsink> excuse me, orange-on-argent
08:40:02 <andreou> it's easilly readable on my screen... anyway, i'll try to find a descent shade of orange
08:40:37 <heatsink> It might be because my screen is over 1200 px wide or something...
08:42:02 <andreou> how many inches? (is your monitor)
08:42:38 <heatsink> seventeen
08:42:56 <andreou> small.
08:42:58 <heatsink> it's lcd
08:43:56 <andreou> maybe i should increase the font size to 11 or 12...
08:44:16 <andreou> hm, wait, it's... P { font-family: arial,verdana; font-size: 12px; color: 000000; }
08:44:29 <heatsink> 12 pixels?
08:44:52 <andreou> so it says
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08:48:00 <lament> ugh
08:48:02 <lament> why does it have to be ook? :(
08:48:23 <heatsink> ook is a dutch word, isn't it?
08:48:44 <andreou> no, it's just dutch-like
08:48:50 <andreou> lament one language per week :)
08:50:27 <heatsink> I'm going to bed then
08:50:36 <heatsink> see yaz
08:50:37 <andreou> ok
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08:51:14 <lament> I don't count Ook to be an esoteric language at all
08:51:14 <andreou> lament allow me...
08:51:27 <andreou> it's brainfuck with a few candy
08:52:15 <lament> Any language isomorphic with an already existing language is dumb
08:52:30 <andreou> useless
08:52:31 <lament> Also, brainfuck has better syntax.
08:52:42 <andreou> syntax, heh...
08:52:51 <lament> Brainfuck's syntax isn't obfuscated
08:52:53 <lament> which is good
08:53:01 <lament> Syntax should never be obfuscated
08:53:14 <lament> Algorithms and primitives should be obfuscated :)
08:53:14 <andreou> indeed, the obfuscation lies at a more important level
08:53:31 <lament> But in ook, only syntax is needlessly obfuscated relative to Brainfuck
08:56:19 <andreou> i go lie down and read the dis docs now.
08:56:28 <andreou> eh what on earth forced me to download miktex...
08:56:58 <lament> heh, dis
08:57:12 <lament> i doubt anybody ever looked at dis in detail
08:58:28 <andreou> indeed.
09:14:23 <lament> Because if they did, they'd look like cowards.
09:14:44 <andreou> naaah
09:19:44 <lament> cowards
09:19:48 <lament> you're a coward
09:19:56 <lament> your mother is ashamed of you!
09:20:00 <andreou> say that in my face.
09:20:34 <andreou> well, that's true, but only because i code.
09:29:38 <fizzie> dis was for people who thing malbolge's to hard-core?
09:30:05 <lament> exactly. Dis is "Malbolge lite(tm)"
09:30:16 <andreou> and malbolge is malbolge proper.
09:54:00 * andreou looks for his two typewriters
10:07:49 <andreou> found the greek, didn't find the latin. of course, i was looking for the latin...
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21:12:24 <Toreun> hi everyone
21:12:55 <Toreun> I modified the http://bitrot.ee.teiath.gr/esoteric/ design to not use tables
21:12:59 <Toreun> http://www.toreun.org/esoteric
21:13:11 <Toreun> it doesn't work that well on IE, but in good browsers it works fine
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00:40:28 <Toreun> andreou, check your memos
00:42:59 <andreou> hm, the separator lines are too thick, but the title idea is very good.
00:43:07 <andreou> please dcc over the tarball
00:43:28 <Toreun> I didn't archive it, since you can download it yourself
00:43:34 <Toreun> but I'll do so now if you want
00:43:46 <Toreun> which separator lines?
00:44:07 <andreou> the orange-gray lines
00:44:32 <Toreun> they should be the same as in your design
00:44:45 <andreou> they're about five pixels thick or so.
00:44:58 <Toreun> they appear to me to be 10
00:45:13 <Toreun> you set them as height="1", which doesn't have a unit
00:45:15 <andreou> they should be 1-pixel high :)
00:45:28 <Toreun> you should've used 1px
00:45:33 <Toreun> I like them thicker, personally
00:45:41 <Toreun> but 10 is probably too much
00:46:23 <Toreun> ok, check now, how's that?
00:46:50 <andreou> yes, now they are subtler
00:48:04 <andreou> should we use darker colors? you know, for the site to be more, eh, sinister :)
00:48:42 <Toreun> I like it how it is. Sinister will scare people away. We don't want the site to do that, we want the languages to :-P
00:49:39 <andreou> heh luring them in with candy and sweet talk and then sodomizing their minds. that's so, eh, esoteric... >8-)#
00:49:46 <Toreun> besides, the way I have it done, the colors are all customizable, except for the title bar and subtitle, which I didn't feel like making classes for individual letters
00:50:18 <Toreun> that's one reason I hate table-based sites so much
00:50:27 <Toreun> to change appearance you have to mess with html
00:50:43 <andreou> by the way, the wikied code is stacked on my todo que (as #1), since i have to learn latex right now, i'll restart work on it tomorrow or the day after.
00:51:15 <Toreun> would you happen to be able to make it in PHP?
00:51:26 <andreou> the wiki?
00:51:33 <Toreun> because that way whatever I do will integrate better
00:51:39 <Toreun> yeah
00:52:04 <Toreun> if you don't know PHP, it's no big deal... but I probably should learn perl anyway
00:52:05 <andreou> probably. there are about 100 lines of C left, so I'll finish that first and then i'll rewrite it in php
00:52:28 <Toreun> why are you using C?
00:52:33 <andreou> oh, it's not in perl; perl is evil and at the same time sucks like a hoover.
00:52:52 <andreou> (plus, i would have to break the chroot or create a local tree with perl+libs)
00:52:59 <Toreun> watch where you say that... this is a programming channel
00:53:25 <andreou> this is an esoteric programming channel, so i can hate and bash every and all languages :)
00:53:33 <Toreun> touche
00:54:43 <Toreun> I know! if you're using that argument, let's make the site in Brainfuck!
00:55:16 <Toreun> (I did see a webserver somewhere that had a brainfuck mod)
00:55:58 <andreou> apache has a mod_bf and i considered using it.
00:56:08 <Toreun> oh, I didn't know that
00:56:23 <andreou> however, i value what is left of my mental stability :)
00:57:39 <Toreun> whatever mental stability I had is now gone since I created my own esoteric lang
00:57:55 <Toreun> bah, it's far too overrated anyway
01:00:08 <Toreun> think we should have a user system?
01:00:19 <Toreun> (I'm working on php-ing it now)
01:00:51 <andreou> not sure about a user system
01:02:26 <Toreun> not a required sign-up system, an optional one, so credit /can/ be given if wanted
01:02:53 <andreou> oh, *that*. well, that is already in the works.
01:02:57 <Toreun> oh, ok
01:03:29 <Toreun> should I screw over the IE users and make a cool bottom bar like I have on my homepage, http://www.toreun.org?
01:04:01 <Toreun> or would we just cram everything into the contents section of the left?
01:04:48 <Toreun> I'm thinking for organizing wiki link trees and other random stuff?
01:05:00 <andreou> the bottom bar seems to work ok in ie6...
01:05:06 <Toreun> oh really?
01:05:19 <andreou> well, i think so :)
01:05:34 <Toreun> it didn't even show up for me
01:05:43 <Toreun> and last time I tried it, it didn't mouseover well
01:05:54 <Toreun> oh here we go, I refreshed
01:06:00 <andreou> the bottom bar is the thingie with the buttons?
01:06:00 <Toreun> the mouseover doesn't work
01:06:14 <Toreun> no, it's the thing with the links
01:06:19 <Toreun> that on IE appears at the top
01:06:26 <Toreun> but good browsers it should be fixed always at the bottom of the page
01:06:45 <andreou> hm, yes, at the top. what should the mouseover do?
01:06:57 <Toreun> bring up submenus
01:07:07 <Toreun> try it in another browser
01:07:17 <Toreun> it's horribly useless, but incredibly cool
01:07:19 <andreou> i don't have/use any other browsers
01:07:47 <Toreun> oh, then my new site design will most likely look quite different on your browser than intended
01:08:06 <Toreun> it should look nearly EXACTLY the same as yours, with only a few pixels off in a few places
01:08:47 <andreou> better have a site that will be viewable from any browser
01:09:17 <Toreun> oh yeah - we're going for the "poison candy" philosophy *g*
01:09:50 <andreou> no, not poison, hallucinogenic (we have edwin working on that department)
01:09:57 <andreou> need... a... smoke...
01:10:23 <Toreun> unfortunately, mushrooms don't necessarily attract people like candy
01:11:34 <andreou> i was thinking along the lines of soaking the candy with strong amanita muscaria extract.
01:11:48 <andreou> hm, coding under the influence of entheogens will probably be *something*
01:12:34 <Toreun> yeah, brainfuck
01:12:44 <andreou> literally
01:12:52 <Toreun> exactly
01:13:13 <Toreun> hmm, do you know the rewrite rule for .htaccess files?
01:14:24 <Toreun> (I've been meaning to learn it, but never got around to it)
01:15:38 <andreou> rewrite rules? eh since i don't know what it means, i guess i don't know them :)
01:16:09 <Toreun> they're used by apache to determine what information is being requested and what information is being given
01:16:13 <Toreun> based on URLs
01:16:26 <Toreun> and it's exceedingly complex and not exactly sensible
01:16:46 <Toreun> s/exceedingly/unnecessarily
01:17:00 <andreou> you don't mean plain .htaccess, right? heh
01:17:41 <Toreun> well, some stuff in .htaccess is pretty easy, since it's just basically a .conf
01:19:21 <Toreun> I want to make <server>/pagename refer to <server>/index.php?action=pagename
01:19:55 <andreou> hm dunno how to do it
01:21:39 <Toreun> oh well
01:23:10 <Toreun> I guess linking to ?something is gonna have to suffice
01:23:32 <andreou> you mean, like literally ln -s'ing?
01:24:03 <Toreun> no, I mean href'ing
01:24:20 <andreou> ah
01:28:10 <andreou> hey, i *found* it!
01:28:12 <andreou> http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ffcc/
01:28:43 <Toreun> impressive
01:35:55 <andreou> should be, it came highly recommended...
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01:55:25 <andreou> i'm out
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02:55:23 <Toreun> how's http://www.toreun.org/esoteric/index2.php?
02:55:54 <Toreun> (that's my modification)
02:56:44 <andreou> what does the bf program do?
02:56:55 <andreou> that mod has a lot of blank space :)
02:57:53 <Toreun> well, I made it a fixed size
02:57:58 <Toreun> It's part of a quine
03:00:19 <Toreun> go to about
03:01:34 <andreou> ``Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer'' that reminds me of something.
03:01:50 <Toreun> it's the standard spacefilling text
03:01:52 <Toreun> lipsum.com
03:02:03 <andreou> ah heh
03:02:27 <Toreun> just to show you what happens when there's more to a page than normally fits
03:03:28 <andreou> there's never more than normally fits, we esotericists can handle anything and everything!
03:03:42 <andreou> *sinister laughing*
03:03:44 <Toreun> you should get mozilla or firefox, just so you can see how my site is supposed to look :-P
03:04:13 <andreou> i'll do so if i go to the tei today ;p
03:04:23 <Toreun> esotericists? how bout "esoterians"?
03:04:45 <andreou> that's more cult-like... i like it :)
03:08:00 <Toreun> tei?
03:08:45 <andreou> teiath.gr :)
03:09:45 <Toreun> ah
03:17:34 <Toreun> wow, in IE 6 my site looks so... esoteric
03:18:07 <andreou> it's all wrong.
03:18:17 <andreou> we should have written it in either befunge or lojban.
03:19:02 <Toreun> lojban as a programming language? now there's an interesting idea
03:19:16 <andreou> no, it's a human language
03:19:19 <andreou> as is loglan
03:19:21 <Toreun> I know
03:19:23 <andreou> 'logical language'
03:19:39 <Toreun> I'm a conlang fan(atic?) too
03:19:49 <andreou> no i got it: we'll write it in greek.
03:19:51 <andreou> ancient greek.
03:20:22 <Toreun> latin, we already have the about page done!
03:20:33 <Toreun> no - ancient egyptian hieroglyphs!
03:20:39 <andreou> latin can be easilly deciphered
03:20:44 <andreou> oh, there's an idea
03:20:55 <andreou> and since there are no fonts
03:21:08 <andreou> we'll write them by hand, then scan them and save them in an obscure format
03:21:27 <andreou> for which the documentation is produced by a program in malbolge
03:21:40 <andreou> and we will introduce a bug or two in the program.
03:21:58 <Toreun> an obscure format /generated/ by a malbolge program!
03:22:18 <andreou> won't work
03:22:37 <andreou> but translated into .png by a bug-ridden malbolge program... that's something.
03:24:02 <Toreun> why png? how bout one of those weird macintosh formats
03:24:38 <andreou> xpm
03:25:00 <Toreun> isn't that for the gimp, too?
03:25:05 <andreou> so most people will have to try and read a 1024x768 C structure
03:25:11 <andreou> iirc there's no support
03:25:55 <Toreun> well, I think any mental stability I had now has completely gone.
03:26:16 <andreou> any mental what?
03:26:23 <Toreun> something like that
03:26:53 <andreou> like what?
03:27:01 <andreou> ok, i'll go make an icecream now.
03:27:32 <Toreun> ooh - instead of sticking *just* to malbolge - we make it a polyglot for every language in our wiki
03:28:52 <Toreun> though I suppose that'd make it too easy to compile
03:29:55 <andreou> maybe i should skip the icecream and go directly to heavy liquor
03:30:42 <Toreun> have edwin give you some mushrooms
03:31:02 <andreou> no, i don't want to hallucinate about malbolge, mon!
03:31:04 <andreou> heh
03:31:47 <Toreun> oh, good point... usage of hallucinogens prevents psychological defense mechanisms
03:32:08 <andreou> indeed!
03:41:18 <Toreun> does your wiki have a separate discussion board?
03:41:47 <andreou> hm, no, just one wiki per language
03:42:37 <Toreun> you can't make more wiki pages?
03:42:49 <Toreun> unless you submit a new language?
03:43:10 <andreou> you can make as many as you want
03:43:29 <Toreun> (I was thinking each page, or each language, at least, have it's own forum-type thing, where users can discuss the language)
03:43:33 <andreou> i just thought that the wikis would be an easy way to have pages about the languages, i didn't use them as fora
03:44:04 <Toreun> yeah, which is why I was thinking each wiki page would have its own forum, to have discussions
03:44:20 <Toreun> rather than have users discuss directly on the wiki, crowding everything
03:45:04 <andreou> no, the wiki will be used just for the definitions of languages etc
03:45:17 <andreou> i really hate web fora, i prefer mailing lists :)
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03:46:34 <Toreun> well, my mail server is blacklisted on the esoteric mailing list, last time I checked
03:46:50 <andreou> how come?
03:46:53 <andreou> ah
03:46:58 <andreou> it's probably an open relay
03:47:11 <Toreun> something about not having whois information
03:47:24 <andreou> ident?
03:47:28 <Toreun> not my domain, I'm assuming, but some other domain on the same server
03:47:32 <Toreun> not sure
03:47:35 <andreou> are you the admin of the mail server?
03:47:41 <Toreun> no
03:47:51 <andreou> whois and ident are different stuff
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03:48:04 <andreou> well, the whole of .gr doesn't have whois (thanks, hostmaster.gr), however i can post
03:48:10 <andreou> it's probably something else
03:48:22 <Toreun> oh, ok
03:48:23 <Toreun> hm
03:48:47 <Toreun> I'm blacklisted on many servers, because of bad administration on the part of my server, so a lot of mailing lists I can't access
03:49:35 <Toreun> the problem is, with a wiki, people may be inclined to post discussions anyway
03:50:16 <andreou> well, the exelixis of the wiki will drive discussions out :)
03:50:27 <andreou> however, if we need another forum, i will put one up
03:50:44 <andreou> i was, however, thinking of a reference site for the available esolangs
03:50:45 <heatsink> Why not do what wikipedia did, give every page a discussion section?
03:51:09 <andreou> well it's doable i think
03:51:18 <andreou> it's not provisioned in the code, but How Hard Could It Be TM
03:51:19 <Toreun> heatsink: that's what I'm thinking, but instead of just making the discussion section just be another wiki, make it be a messageboard
03:51:20 <andreou> heh
03:51:39 <Toreun> and I could implement it into the code fairly easily
03:51:54 <lament> Just get the wikipedia.org wiki
03:52:17 <lament> On c2.com/wiki there're no separate discussion pages, but people discuss things anyway
03:52:30 <andreou> hm i need something that won't need a whole libc+perl tree
03:52:43 <lament> suck
03:53:42 <Toreun> I would offer my server as webspace, but I'm afraid it's so unreliable it wouldn't be much good
03:54:05 <andreou> due to downtime or due to security issues?
03:54:06 <Toreun> it has perl support already
03:54:19 <Toreun> downtime due to security issues, I'm assuming
03:54:25 <Toreun> DoS attacks
03:54:31 <andreou> ah
03:54:32 <andreou> anyway
03:54:36 <andreou> i'm out to get some work done
03:54:45 <Toreun> ok
03:54:51 <Toreun> bye
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03:55:33 <Toreun> lament and heatsink, what do you think of my modifications to andreou's design? (http://www.toreun.org/esoteric)
03:56:40 <heatsink> The "best viewed with mozilla" graphic is misaligned in konqueror
03:57:21 <Toreun> well, it is designed for mozilla
03:57:25 <Toreun> but what do you mean, misaligned?
03:57:55 <heatsink> It's behind the bottom of the main div
03:58:17 <Toreun> what's your screen resolution?
03:58:45 <heatsink> 1200 by 900 or something like that
03:58:54 <Toreun> that should be fine
03:58:59 <Toreun> unless your text size is larger
03:59:03 <Toreun> and that might be affecting it
03:59:03 <heatsink> I like the brainfuck background, though
03:59:16 <Toreun> thanks... I figured there should be something there
04:00:27 <heatsink> The "about" text is very unoriginal
04:00:35 <Toreun> it's just to fill space
04:00:38 <Toreun> to show the overflow
04:00:46 * heatsink disapproves of plagiarism
04:00:59 <heatsink> ;p
04:01:15 <Toreun> :-P
04:02:00 <heatsink> Actually, I really liked andreou's formatting of the box background and border
04:02:22 <Toreun> I meant it to be nearly exactly the same
04:02:24 <heatsink> This one only has orange on the top, and a homogeneous background
04:02:43 <Toreun> a homogeneous background?
04:02:45 <Toreun> it shouldn't...
04:02:53 <Toreun> or just orange on top
04:02:54 * heatsink looks at default.css
04:03:09 * Toreun points to little graphic at bottom right of page
04:03:35 <heatsink> There's no border-bottom field for #left in default.css
04:03:41 <Toreun> I know
04:03:53 <Toreun> it's in #container
04:04:10 <heatsink> Oh, I see
04:04:12 <Toreun> and then there's a bottom-border for #main, that overrides it
04:04:47 <Toreun> (originally I didn't keep it a fixed size, so I needed the left bar to extend with the main section)
04:04:52 <Toreun> (or at least look like it did)
04:06:20 <heatsink> I think that #main is filling the entire width of #container
04:06:38 <Toreun> could you take a screenshot?
04:07:35 * heatsink forgot how to do that
04:07:53 <Toreun> in the gimp you can do it
04:08:05 <Toreun> or maybe kde supports the print-screen key
04:08:19 <heatsink> There was a shell program that would do it
04:08:25 <heatsink> I've done it before
04:08:38 <Toreun> hmm
04:10:44 <Toreun> I should just make an alternate CSS
04:11:22 <Toreun> for people who don't use Mozilla or Lynx
04:13:48 <heatsink> okay, I got it
04:16:06 <heatsink> okay, the first 13 rows of pixels are white
04:16:40 <heatsink> then 596 white pixels
04:17:01 <heatsink> the next pixel is 152,114,255
04:17:08 <heatsink> are you writing this down?
04:17:42 <Toreun> heh
04:18:04 <Toreun> 13 rows of what, left?
04:18:49 <Toreun> could you send the screenshot?
04:20:04 <heatsink> whither?
04:20:30 <Toreun> toreun@toreun.org works for email
04:20:48 <Toreun> but you could try dcc, though I don't think it works that well with GAIM
04:22:19 <heatsink> I've never dcced before
04:22:42 <Toreun> me neither
04:22:45 <heatsink> dcc send Toreun ~/tmp/screenshot.jpg
04:23:04 <heatsink> try dcc get me
04:23:07 <Toreun> ack, try that again? I was typing and must've hit c
04:23:40 <heatsink> /dcc
04:23:47 <heatsink> /dcc get heatsink
04:24:15 <heatsink> it's not working?
04:25:09 <heatsink> do you see a message if I do this?
04:25:19 <heatsink> oh, I guess not
04:25:26 <heatsink> did you type /dcc get heatsink?
04:25:58 <Toreun> yeah, it doesn't work with gaim
04:26:39 <heatsink> use xchat?
04:27:34 <Toreun> hold on, switching...
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04:29:11 <Toreun> connected failed
04:29:17 <heatsink> hmm
04:29:31 <heatsink> does DCC go over a different port than irc?
04:29:36 <heatsink> it might be the firewall
04:29:51 <Toreun> I'm DMZ host, right now, the firewall shouldn't be a problem, at least on my side
04:30:09 <heatsink> yeah, but I have a firewall that blocks some porta
04:31:02 <heatsink> else: print "unknown comand!!111 AHR AHR U SUX0R"
04:31:13 <heatsink> that's a line from my script
04:31:36 <heatsink> I'll e-mail you then
04:31:42 <Toreun> ok, that works
04:36:09 <heatsink> that shoudl do it
04:36:54 <Toreun> oh, that looks like it does on Internet Explorer
04:38:27 * heatsink is going to bed
04:38:38 <Toreun> actually... now it seems that IE renders it more correctly
04:38:40 <Toreun> ok, g'night
04:38:55 <heatsink> night
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01:10:54 <Toreun> hi heatsink
01:13:15 <heatsink> Hi Toreun
01:13:40 <heatsink> I discovered a perl obfuscator that was installed on my computer today!
01:14:25 <heatsink> You give it an input filename and output filename,
01:14:35 <heatsink> And it reads the input file and writes obfuscated perl to the output file
01:15:11 <Toreun> ooh, sounds... useless
01:15:13 <heatsink> It's called "cat"
01:15:19 <Toreun> LOL
01:15:24 <heatsink> :)
01:15:47 <heatsink> I don't want to try that in #perl...
01:16:57 <Toreun> you never know with those perl programmers
01:20:10 <Toreun> check out the new design I made: http://www.toreun.org/esoteric
01:20:23 <Toreun> it'll be customizable, I'm just making a few samples
01:20:45 <Toreun> this one works better in IE... not sure about Konqueror, my KDE box is currently dead, so I can't test it
01:22:22 <heatsink> Style 2 looks like andreou's
01:22:52 <Toreun> it is... well, my css'd version
01:23:09 <heatsink> style 1 doesn't look right
01:23:42 <Toreun> it should look like... *screenshot* h/o
01:24:58 <heatsink> Did you send that to something@burr.something?
01:25:10 <heatsink> Because I won't get thta
01:25:27 <Toreun> no... I'm gonna put it on my server
01:25:31 <heatsink> ok
01:26:25 <heatsink> hmm, are negative margins allowed?
01:26:35 <Toreun> yeah
01:27:24 <Toreun> http://www.toreun.org/esoteric/style1.png
01:28:49 <heatsink> The formatting of the boxes is strange
01:29:27 <heatsink> The <li> boxes are constant width and appear in front of the text
01:30:44 <Toreun> that's... weird
01:31:41 <Toreun> so you can't see the text?
01:31:57 <heatsink> I can see everything except for the last character
01:32:14 <heatsink> The boxes are narrow
01:33:50 <Toreun> hmm... I suppose I could make the boxes a fixed width, but that could be bad when the links are long
01:34:03 <heatsink> I'm playing with the stylesheet now
01:34:06 <Toreun> ok
01:34:32 <Toreun> I'll have to make a third one anyway... a very simple one
01:35:46 <heatsink> In #main p:first-line, add border: none
01:36:00 <heatsink> Otherwise, it inherits the dashed border from #main p
01:36:13 <heatsink> And there are confusing extra dashes in the document
01:36:25 <Toreun> ok
01:37:24 <heatsink> This is annoying -- when you turn that off, the dashed border on the left side of the first line disappears
01:37:38 <heatsink> That should be a bug report
01:37:45 <Toreun> I'll do border-top and border-bottom none
01:38:09 <Toreun> how's that?
01:38:27 <heatsink> That looks okay
01:39:23 <Toreun> ok
01:42:58 <heatsink> Also, li display:inline seems to be messing things up, although when it's not inline it inserts newlines between the list elements
01:43:19 <Toreun> hmm...
01:44:07 <Toreun> how's that look... it might be more compatible, but I'm not sure I like the floating left
01:44:32 <Toreun> actually... let me try something
01:44:50 <heatsink> It looks the same
01:45:00 <heatsink> I still see the first-line boxes, also
01:45:24 <Toreun> ok... that didn't work
01:45:52 <Toreun> they should be left aligned rather than center now
01:46:02 <Toreun> I used float: left
01:47:27 <Toreun> the first line boxes? where's the border??
01:48:03 <heatsink> In style1.css, I don't see any border-top: or border-bottom:
01:48:10 <heatsink> Maybe something is caching the webpage
01:48:27 <Toreun> hmm... try shift-refresh, I think
01:48:35 <Toreun> I'm pretty sure that does a hard refresh
01:48:35 <heatsink> oh, yes
01:48:43 <heatsink> It looks okay now
01:48:57 <Toreun> how's the left align look?
01:49:01 <Toreun> rather than it being in the middle?
01:49:03 <heatsink> And the <ul> is left-aligned
01:49:19 <heatsink> It definitely would look nicer if you could put that in the middle
01:49:25 <Toreun> I know
01:49:32 <Toreun> but without using display: inline I'm not sure I can
01:49:38 <Toreun> and you said that's giving you problems
01:50:24 <heatsink> I know <center> is deprecated, but it seems to be the only portable way to accomplish some things
01:50:43 * Toreun winces
01:51:05 <Toreun> the problem with that is the multiple stylesheets...
01:51:13 <Toreun> which is my whole philosophy of webdesign
01:51:15 <heatsink> oh, right
01:51:42 <Toreun> in theory it should look fine, because Mozilla seems to always display things correctly
01:51:56 <Toreun> but only... what, 10% of the population uses it?
01:51:58 <Toreun> at most
01:52:22 <heatsink> yeah, something like that
01:52:35 <heatsink> ie gets the lions share
01:54:40 <heatsink> brb
01:55:21 <Toreun> k
02:00:47 <heatsink> b
02:00:55 <Toreun> wb
02:01:07 <Toreun> I can't seem to figure out how to center it...
02:02:15 <Toreun> so I'm gonna leave it as display: inline and make a *much* less intensive stylesheet
02:02:21 <heatsink> okay
02:03:04 <heatsink> As a programmer, I have to say that CSS is too restrictive
02:03:17 <Toreun> yes, I've noticed that too
02:03:41 <heatsink> I want to be able to have successive lines of text spaced by successive prime-number distances
02:03:53 <Toreun> it's way too hard to center everything! you have to use roundabout methods that were originally unexpected
02:04:08 <Toreun> that would need a turing complete markup, wouldn't it?
02:04:12 <heatsink> I think so :)
02:04:45 <heatsink> I haven't been able to center a <div> in all of IE, Netscape, and Konqueror without using the <center> tag
02:05:21 <heatsink> There's something in the CSS specification about text-align: center only applying to inline elements
02:05:50 <Toreun> if only it wasn't so difficult to get something standard in webdesign... maybe there would be a turing complete design language
02:06:21 <heatsink> Imagine all the webpage-bombs though
02:06:41 <Toreun> that's true
02:07:15 <heatsink> 100.000 bottles of beer on the wall...
02:08:08 <Toreun> well... would there be a way to prevent dynamic text insertion?
02:09:16 <heatsink> That wouldn't be very turing-complete
02:09:37 <Toreun> well... not necessarily... dynamic images?
02:10:06 <heatsink> Actually I think Microsoft is trying to use .NET to add programmability to webpages, like Sun tried with Java
02:10:38 <Toreun> that's... not very good
02:10:56 <heatsink> Yeah
02:15:28 <Toreun> .NET is getting awfully bloated, IMO
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02:26:22 <heatsink> wb
02:26:47 <Toreun> hi
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05:36:40 -!- lament has set topic: http://bitrot.ee.teiath.gr/esoteric/ please provide feedback. the wiki will be ready Really Soon Now. -- language of the week: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/ook.html write something in/for ook. || http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath135.htm.
05:36:44 <lament> woo!
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03:18:53 <lament> sooooooooooo
03:23:12 <lament> SO
03:23:22 <lament> where's the wiki!!!
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06:34:25 <lament> hello quiet channel.
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08:39:13 <fizzie> hello noisy lament.
08:39:29 <lament> hello again
08:40:04 <fizzie> no exams or anything today, so still mostly asleep.
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08:25:51 <mtve> btw, brainfuck is currently perlgolfed at http://kernelpanic.pl/perlgolf-view.mx?id=34
19:33:19 <lament> my scorpion died.
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18:43:35 <mtve> hmm, why i havn's seen this before? http://pathlang.sourceforge.net/
18:50:13 <fizzie> there's that one related language that uses the angles in the points where the path changes direction as the commands. iirc.
18:51:02 <fizzie> wonder what that one was called.
18:51:53 <mtve> yes, there are very few of new concepts there. still interesting to write a shortest hello-world and a quine :)
18:53:01 <fizzie> if you do, please provide proof that yours are indeed the shortest.
18:56:18 <Taaus> fizzie: It was called "wierd", if memory serves.
18:56:39 <Taaus> A pun on "weird" and "wired" :)
18:57:58 <Taaus> Uh, I think... Catseye seems to be long gone. I think it was one of Chris Pressey's languages.
18:59:20 <mtve> http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/wierd/
18:59:42 <Taaus> I stand corrected.
19:04:01 <fizzie> gaah. my wacom pen stopped working when I restarted X and now it feels like my hand went numb.
19:05:47 <fizzie> a very unpleasant feeling.
19:32:22 <lament> catseye isn't dead?!?
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00:01:10 <Toreun> wow... cat's eye is back
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21:03:31 <calamari_> hi
21:22:22 <calamari_> an esoteric wiki.. this should be cool
21:22:54 <calamari_> btw, did anyone ever discover what happened to Chris Pressey?
21:26:44 <lament> dunno
21:26:46 <lament> ask on esolang
21:26:54 <calamari_> aha, found his page!
21:27:05 <calamari_> http://catseye.mine.nu:8080
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22:10:41 <andreou> ugh.
22:10:44 <Toreun> hi there
22:11:05 <andreou> i don't know what's worse: the flue or the upcoming exam period
22:11:50 <andreou> the hallucinations on 40oC-fever were wonderful, though.
22:12:29 <Toreun> feeling any better?
22:12:38 <andreou> i'm over it now (the flu)
22:12:57 <Toreun> oh, too bad - now you'll have to resort to the normal method of having hallucinations
22:13:04 -!- andreou has set topic: http://bitrot.ee.teiath.gr/esoteric/ (we need feedback). http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath135.htm.
22:13:16 <andreou> actually no; i've had enough for a while
22:13:49 <Toreun> have you taken a look at my other styles for the webpage? http://www.toreun.org/esoteric
22:13:50 <calamari-> hi andreou.. if I typed your email address correctly you should have some esoteric page feedback
22:13:52 <andreou> what, no pdp channel on freenode? that's preposterous!
22:13:58 <andreou> yeah i saw them
22:14:07 <andreou> calamari- hm what's your real name?
22:14:13 <calamari-> Jeffry Johnston
22:14:34 <andreou> ah indeed, i sent out the reply a few minutes ago
22:17:06 -!- lament has set topic: http://bitrot.ee.teiath.gr/esoteric/ (we need feedback). http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath135.htm || Catseye isn't dead!.
22:17:16 <calamari-> toreun: all those dotted lines are hard on my eyes
22:17:23 <Toreun> which style?
22:17:25 <andreou> lament really? then i must kill it now :)
22:17:43 <calamari-> don't kill it.. the wiki idea is great
22:17:53 <Toreun> yeah, what gives! just as we're trying to redesign a cats eye like site, cats eye comes back!
22:17:58 <andreou> catseye, i mean :)
22:18:09 <calamari-> I found it by searching for Chris Pressey in google :P
22:18:20 <Toreun> whatever happened with that, does anyone know?
22:18:27 <andreou> lament what's the new url?
22:18:34 <calamari-> he moved, and I guess that changed his website address
22:18:37 <Toreun> http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/
22:18:43 <andreou> ah
22:18:58 -!- lament has set topic: http://bitrot.ee.teiath.gr/esoteric/ (we need feedback). http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath135.htm || Catseye isn't dead! http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/.
22:19:02 <lament> yay
22:19:07 <calamari-> lots of stuff is missing from the original site, though
22:19:20 <Toreun> yeah, I noticed that
22:20:22 <lament> andreou: where's the wiki?
22:21:04 <andreou> at the door, waiting for the exams to exit :)
22:24:55 <andreou> i spent wo god damned hours downloading a tarball, only to have the connection timeout on me.
22:26:39 <andreou> nice, no resume, no cache, no nothing.
22:27:03 <lament> suffer!
22:27:17 <Toreun> of course. Isn't that a law of computing or something?
22:27:22 <lament> hopefully you're not serving the site from the same machine? :)
22:27:48 <andreou> lament over dialup with per-minute charges? no, i'm not :)
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01:03:47 <navigator> still here? damn.
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01:04:02 <Toreun> I'm still here
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01:04:07 <Toreun> oh, hi
01:04:21 <andreou> it takes forever for nicks to die here
01:06:41 <andreou> hey
01:06:52 <Toreun> yeah, I noticed that too
01:10:07 <andreou> ugh, i'm so tired my eyes burn
01:10:23 <Toreun> exams keeping you awake?
01:12:26 <andreou> not really, i was downloading this huge file which i'm now moving over to another box, downloading a book and, yes, reading a bit.
01:12:41 <andreou> but it's not the reading that keeps me awake.
01:15:40 <andreou> i should stop using sftp for intranet transfers
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06:40:35 <calamari_> hi
06:42:29 <lament> hi
06:45:23 <calamari_> I was looking into making a bf backend for gcc, but it seems really complicated.. ever done anything like that?
06:46:19 <deltab> a frontend would be far easier
06:46:56 <calamari_> yeah, but I want c -> bf.. not bf -> whatever :)
06:47:25 <calamari_> I was thinking about porting my bfbasic to c, but gcc is so much better
06:49:50 <calamari_> I figured out a way to have 32-bit pointers and also named functions (it turns out that there are 64 possible chars in a function name and max 31 chars, so approx 24 bytes per function name)
06:50:12 <calamari_> lots of bloat, but who cares really :)
06:51:02 <calamari_> each function could then use the line number method for local labels
06:51:36 <calamari_> I'd have to implement malloc in bf tho.. not fun :)
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08:15:33 <calamari_> bbl
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14:25:14 <andreou> we need more people
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14:25:30 <andreou> yey!
14:25:35 <andreou> ;)
14:26:02 <Toreun> I don't think ChanServ counts as a person
14:26:49 <andreou> "he"'s as active as 90% of the people here
14:27:06 <Toreun> that's true
14:43:09 <kosmikus> no longer
18:00:01 <lament> Hi.
18:00:09 <lament> Does anybody have my Javascript thue interpreter?
18:04:56 <lament> or perhaps know of some way of retrieving it?
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18:12:51 <lament> I know the address at which it used to be.
18:12:58 <lament> And i already looked for it on archive.org.
18:13:02 <lament> And it's not there :(
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18:31:26 <calamari_> hi
20:24:51 <Toreun> hi
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00:28:01 <calamari_> hello
00:28:22 <Toreun> hi
00:29:28 <calamari_> what's new?
00:30:43 <Toreun> nothing much. playing with this Blog Stock market thing (http://www.blogshares.com/)
00:31:09 <Toreun> it's kinda interesting
00:31:16 <Toreun> and much less risky than the real stock market
00:32:08 <calamari_> how well does it follow the real stock market?
00:32:42 <Toreun> it doesn't... it just follows stock market principles. it's basically like each blog is a company, and people trade shares of blogs
00:32:49 <calamari_> oic
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04:34:49 <freakabcd> hey lament
04:34:58 <freakabcd> hi all..
04:35:06 <Toreun> hi freakabcd
04:36:10 <lament> freakabcd: Welcome to the Evil Channel Of Idle
04:36:27 <freakabcd> oh so people don;t talk here?
04:36:36 <Toreun> lament: Not the Idle Channel of Evil?
04:36:40 <freakabcd> just sit idle?
04:36:44 <lament> Toreun: sorry!
04:36:57 <lament> freakabcd: If you talk, you get banned
04:37:04 <lament> I don't think we have ever discussed intercal here
04:37:11 <lament> But it certainly would be on-topic
04:37:14 <freakabcd> ok, so what happens here in the idle channel of evil other than getting banned?
04:37:16 <Toreun> on occasion we get a few people having conversations, but they quickly learn their lesson
04:37:25 <lament> Toreun: Repeatedly.
04:37:36 <lament> They just keep on learning.
04:38:01 <freakabcd> so people can do mind-reading in this channel! i'm in the right place :)
04:38:29 <lament> Just being in this channel is enough. What else is there to say?
04:38:42 <Toreun> freakabcd: don't confuse programming brainfuck for mind-reading
04:39:49 <freakabcd> woah.. yes. i confuse the verbs brainf*ck and mind-read :)
04:40:19 <Toreun> well, sometimes you have to be a mindreader to understand bf code
04:41:07 <lament> And to program in Brainfuck, you have to be a mindwriter.
04:41:42 <Toreun> indeed
04:42:21 <freakabcd> yes i have learnt a valuable lesson today:: i must become a mindwriter in order to program in bf
04:42:37 <Toreun> whattaya know, you do learn something new every day
04:45:50 <Toreun> so what brings you into #esoteric?
04:46:05 <Toreun> whoops, there I go again, making conversation
04:46:31 <freakabcd> well, lament asked me join #esoteric, i thought i'll check it out. iirc i've been here before (loong time before)
04:47:16 <Toreun> an esoteric programmer? or are you just crazy like the rest of us?
04:47:41 <Toreun> (or both, they usually go hand in hand)
04:48:19 <freakabcd> well, an esoteric progrmmer would be one that writes programs in esoteric programming languages?
04:48:33 <freakabcd> if the answer is yes, maybe i'm the other one
04:49:16 <Toreun> yeah, though even code I write in non-esoteric languages looks esoteric sometimes
04:51:38 <lament> Toreun: I found him in #intercal
04:51:56 <lament> (never knew that channel existed until today)
04:52:42 <freakabcd> ah you guys are discussing where i crept up from?
04:55:43 <Toreun> intercal? I should get around to playing with that a bit
04:55:52 <Toreun> it is the "original" esoteric language, right?
04:56:20 <lament> yeah
04:57:18 <freakabcd> its the original esoteric language? i should start playing with it then
06:08:06 <lament> phew, finally conversation back to normal level
07:19:34 <freakabcd> lol lament
07:27:02 <fizzie> imo intercal was a bit too strange when it came to doing IO. although I faintly recall c-intercal providing an extension that made it a bit less silly.
07:31:03 <freakabcd> well anyway, i'm headed home now after work :)
07:31:14 <freakabcd> i'll catch you guys sometime later
07:31:44 <fizzie> I'm desperately trying to get out of bed to get to work. different timezones maybe.
07:33:07 <freakabcd> ofcourse different timezones fizzie
07:34:55 <fizzie> well, you don't have reverse-dns and I'm a bit too lazy to whois. besides, some people might be getting home from work at 0930.
07:35:24 <freakabcd> lol.. NZST == GMT+1200
07:36:05 <freakabcd> the other side of the world, i guess :)
07:36:09 <freakabcd> anyway, i'm off now
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08:28:22 <dbc> \
08:28:25 <dbc> \
08:28:26 <dbc> \
08:28:28 <dbc> \
08:28:29 <dbc> \
08:28:31 <dbc> \
08:28:33 <dbc> \
08:28:36 <dbc> \
08:28:44 <dbc> \
08:28:50 <dbc> \
08:28:53 <dbc> \
08:28:56 <dbc> \
08:28:59 <dbc> \
08:29:04 <dbc> \
08:29:08 <dbc> \
08:29:13 <dbc> \
08:30:03 <fizzie> that was all?
08:30:17 <dbc> Yes. Do you have suggestions for a continuation?
08:31:16 <fizzie> well, I'm not good at these iq-test-like "what comes next in a sequence" things, but if I had to guess, I'd probably say " \"
08:31:58 <dbc> That would be a straightforward next move, but I got bored.
08:36:16 <fizzie> maybe you should do something radically different, like a 180 degree turn. or did you do that already? hard to say.
08:36:31 <dbc> *8)#
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16:23:41 <calamari_> hi
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17:33:22 <lament> hi
17:34:01 <calamari_> hi lament, having fun?
17:36:38 <lament> oh yes
17:36:44 <lament> just got to work
17:36:47 <lament> am drinking coffee
17:36:59 <lament> what can be more fun than that? %)
17:38:14 <calamari_> working on a bf program?
17:38:36 <lament> Worse
17:38:39 <lament> on a Ruby program
17:39:20 <calamari_> use java.. would go better with your coffee ;)
17:40:39 <lament> well, Ruby is a whole lot better than Java
17:42:52 <calamari_> what I'd really like to see is a language like Java (forced error handling, sane strings, nice oo, standard i/o libraries) that compiles native rather than being interpreted
17:44:00 <lament> calamari_: then you're insane.
17:44:07 <calamari_> I'd give up true OO if it could be faked somehow
17:44:09 <lament> calamari_: Firstly, Java sucks
17:44:20 <lament> calamari_: Secondly, Java's OO sucks
17:44:26 <lament> calamari_: thirdly, Java can be natively compiled
17:44:49 <calamari_> I'm pretty sure gcj isn't exactly native
17:46:30 <lament> calamari_: What practical differences does that have?
17:46:40 <calamari_> the thing that I like about Java is how easy it is to get things done. If I need a linked list it's easy, and I can put anything I want in it. If I need to do some work with strings, I don't have memory management headaches
17:50:31 <calamari_> c++ has oo and is compiled, so it should be possible
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19:46:13 <fizzie> on a related note, it saddens me to report that the introductionary programming courses for cs students at my so-called university here will from now on no longer use scheme but java.
19:47:59 <calamari-> introductory programming in java? that's pretty messed up
19:48:08 <lament> Yes
19:48:11 <lament> I went through that
19:48:21 <calamari-> intro programming should be basic, asm and c
19:48:28 <lament> They ignore algorithms and data structures and starts straight with OO.
19:50:04 <calamari-> basic is good to find out if you can actually program, asm lets you understand the details, c is a standard
19:50:14 <fizzie> we used to have three separate courses, T1 that was scheme (functional-programming-like, used sicp as course literature), T2 plain C (as your basic imperative language) and then T3 about OO (in c++/java, don't know, seems I'll never get to do it)
19:50:15 <calamari-> java is something fun you learn later
19:51:11 <fizzie> and then a separate 'data structures and algorithms' course (same time as T2) that was pretty language-agnostic.
19:53:27 <lament> java isn't fun
19:54:08 <fizzie> well, writing a j2me irc client for my phone was pretty fun.
19:55:10 <fizzie> although I wouldn't have written it in java if I had a choice.
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00:29:03 <calamari_> bbl
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16:42:10 <calamari_> hi
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23:49:30 <calamari_> hi
00:22:01 <lament> wow, a creationist troll in #C
00:22:31 <calamari_> what does #c have to do with religion?
00:23:55 <lament> well, it has a bible
00:24:40 <calamari_> haha, you're right
00:25:02 <calamari_> do you have it? you could start quoting "verses"
00:25:10 <lament> haha
00:25:11 <lament> no :(
00:36:54 <fizzie> have been reading comp.lang.c tonight, seems that they often ask "can we have chapter and verse for that?" when people state facts and non-facts.
00:40:18 <calamari_> best I could find from amazon.com :)
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05:57:43 <Keymaker> Hello everyone; haven't been here ever before, and excuse me my bad English.
06:04:59 <lament> that's ok, english is a hard language :P
06:05:10 <Keymaker> Heh
06:05:14 <Keymaker> Yeah.
06:05:14 <lament> And I expect our Finnish is worse than your English
06:05:22 <Keymaker> Finnish
06:05:23 <Keymaker> !
06:05:27 <Keymaker> I'm from Finland :)
06:05:35 <lament> That's why I said Finnish
06:05:47 <Keymaker> Ok
06:07:16 <Keymaker> Hmmm, too bad I have to go now. I'll come back sometime later, goodbye everyone.
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06:07:35 <lament> nobody left.
06:08:04 <mtve> yep.
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12:40:24 <Keymaker> Are you 1.) discussing privately or 2.) just idling? :)
12:46:26 <mtve> 2
12:47:23 <Keymaker> yah
12:47:29 <Keymaker> I can see.
12:53:32 <mtve> we can also discuss something publicly :)
12:55:03 <Keymaker> hmmm, yes
12:55:50 <Keymaker> Well, what language you're interested most about?
12:58:47 <mtve> me? mmm, befunge of esoterics, perl.
12:59:59 <Keymaker> i see
13:00:29 <Keymaker> i just read something about befunge, gotta say i didn't understand anything :O but it seemed interesting
13:08:21 <Keymaker> But well, I think I'll go to do some coding or play Commander Keen, cya.
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14:55:47 <Keymaker> I just realized (=read) Befunge code is in 2d table. No wonder the code looked so cryptic before. :)
15:02:17 <mtve> it's fairly simple in fact.
15:03:03 <Keymaker> yeah
15:03:11 <fizzie> simple, yes, but the lack of functions makes it messy. you "can" simulate functions by directing code flow manually, but it's.. not fun.
15:03:22 <mtve> it is!
15:03:28 <Keymaker> :)
15:03:35 <fizzie> well ok, fun perhaps.
15:03:50 <Keymaker> by the way, where does the code start?
15:03:59 <Keymaker> from some corner or is there some symbol for it?
15:04:08 <fizzie> (0, 0), going left-to-right, does it not.
15:04:17 <Keymaker> ok
15:04:41 <fizzie> mooz has that funky qsort example which I think shows that most non-trivial algorithms in befunge are.. messy.
15:05:08 <Keymaker> i might take a look at it later :)
15:05:32 <fizzie> at http://quux.befunge.org/qsort.html if you want.
15:05:37 <Keymaker> thanks
15:05:37 <fizzie> syntax-highlighted, even.
15:06:11 <Keymaker> :O
15:06:28 <Keymaker> wow, probably wasn't pretty easy to code that one..
15:11:49 <fizzie> hm, since when have I had this '@' character in front of my name and why? it's scary. if I make an U-turn I might hit it and it'd terminate this program. (assuming life works like befunge. would think it does.)
15:12:19 <mtve> hehe
15:12:19 <Keymaker> heh
15:18:04 <Keymaker> Before I realized not so many mins ago that Befunge consist of single characters like BF and the code is in table, I was pretty confused when I was trying to figure 'is there any logic in this language?'. I was trying to think what syntax and instructions it used and didn't realize the different instructions were in front of my eyes as single characters. :\ (sorry, I just had to say this now because I forgot to say this totally ^ up there)
15:19:24 <Keymaker> Probably it'll be better to search some info before looking at the code, for now on. :)
15:19:46 <mtve> check out first url from the topic
15:19:57 <Keymaker> hmm
15:19:58 <Keymaker> ok
15:21:28 <Keymaker> you probably mean the cat's eye page about Befunge?
15:23:14 <mtve> yep. Chris is the author of befunge.
15:23:46 <Keymaker> allright :)
15:23:56 <mtve> http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/befunge93/doc/befunge93.html
15:24:41 <Keymaker> hmm, is he in this room at the moment?
15:25:00 <mtve> nope, i havn't seen him here.
15:25:18 <Keymaker> ok
15:25:35 <mtve> also, looks like he's not interested in esoteric languages anymore but only in esoteric oses.
15:25:49 <Keymaker> what's 'oses'?
15:25:54 <mtve> operating systems
15:25:57 <Keymaker> oh
15:26:04 <mtve> i mean DragonFlyBSD
15:26:44 <Keymaker> ok - though, i don't know (yet) what it is
15:26:44 <fizzie> that sounds more like an esoteric drug than an operating system to me.
15:26:55 <Keymaker> heh
15:27:07 <fizzie> and if not that, then something from the BBS era.
15:28:16 <Keymaker> i'll stay with brainf#ck, but this befunge is just something i don't wanna miss :)
15:28:33 <Keymaker> is there any good interpreters/compilers?
15:28:57 <Keymaker> too bad i have to confess, i'm still using win :(
15:29:22 <fizzie> my befunge interpreters are on the opposite end of the spectrum from good.
15:29:35 <Keymaker> heh
15:30:33 <fizzie> there's glfunge98 which had Real Bugs (tm) and died before it even started (although someone apparently had time to make a HPUX-package of it), then there's "ff" which has few minor bugs too, although I've forgotten what they were, and then there's ff2 which I haven't even ever managed to compile.
15:30:51 <fizzie> I have, however, managed to make gcc eat ~1GB of memory while trying to compile the beast.
15:31:03 <Keymaker> :)
15:31:44 <fizzie> ff's in http://befunge.org/ff/, the rest I'm a bit too ashamed to mention.
15:32:18 <Keymaker> hmm
15:32:35 <fizzie> usually if I have to run befunge(93) code, I'll just use mooz's interpreter. am not sure if it's in the interweb somewhere, though.
15:32:46 <fizzie> it's approximately as fast as ff, but lacks the bugs.
15:33:13 <Keymaker> that's big plus (lack of bugs)
15:33:30 <fizzie> I've forgotten what the bugs in ff were.
15:33:40 <Keymaker> ok
15:33:54 <fizzie> at least it's not pretty c.
15:34:47 <fizzie> ff2 tried to take the ff approach a bit further, and also to compile without gcc.
15:35:07 <fizzie> end result was a mess of code that doesn't compile even with gcc.
15:35:13 <Keymaker> :D
15:35:47 <fizzie> although it seems to be relatively valid C. I tried to compile it with intel's c compiler, and it didn't issue any warnings or errors. it did, however, crash.
15:36:00 <Keymaker> too bad
15:36:45 <fizzie> haven't tried to compile with gcc-3.x, though. might satisfy my curiosity now.
15:36:58 <fizzie> at least befunge beats actually working here at work.
15:37:05 <Keymaker> :)
15:37:29 <Keymaker> what you're doing? code?
15:39:01 <fizzie> currently j2me stuff for stupid multimedia mobile phones. I hates it. this was supposed to be done using the native c++ api symbianOS phones have, but in the middle of the "project", if it can be called that, 'they' decided "hey, we'll do the whole thing on j2me (although it will be ran only on symbian phones)"
15:39:28 <Keymaker> hmmm
15:39:30 <Keymaker> i see
15:40:10 <fizzie> who (besides lunatics and madmen) writes dsp-like code in _java_ to run on a _phone_? I don't want to know how slooooow this thing will run, if my guesses on the performance of the java VM are correct.
15:40:44 <fizzie> hey, gcc-3.1 compiled my ff2, in only 1:30 minutes.
15:40:48 <Keymaker> hmm
15:40:52 <Keymaker> does it work?
15:41:38 <fizzie> no.
15:41:41 <fizzie> of course not.
15:41:45 <Keymaker> :(
15:42:09 <fizzie> you want to fix it? go see http://gehennom.org/~fizban/tmp/ff2.c
15:42:19 <fizzie> I definitely don't want to fix it.
15:42:36 <Keymaker> sorry, but i'm not really good coder :)
15:43:41 <Keymaker> hmmm, just wondering, how many here are actually from finland?
15:43:45 <fizzie> neither am I. the macros used in ff2 look really really sick, though.
15:43:54 <fizzie> just me and mooz, and you, I think.
15:44:00 <Keymaker> ok
15:45:07 <fizzie> well, three out of ~10 isn't too bad, I guess.
15:45:13 <Keymaker> yah
15:45:17 <Keymaker> not at all
15:46:42 <Keymaker> hmmm, by the way, why c? why not c++?
15:47:00 <Keymaker> i think that's somehow simpler
15:47:09 <fizzie> c++ isn't my favourite programming language.
15:47:18 <Keymaker> ah, i see
15:47:19 <fizzie> although I guess I could have made a big enough mess with c++ templates.
15:47:44 <fizzie> maybe I'll write ff++ next.
15:48:16 <Keymaker> :)
15:48:43 <Keymaker> if i have time enough ever i think i'll write somekind of brainf#ck interpreter
15:49:08 <fizzie> besides, when writing C++ I have this strangest urge to write well-structured, oo-like code.
15:49:31 <Keymaker> oo-like?
15:49:37 <fizzie> object-oriented-like.
15:49:39 <Keymaker> ah
15:49:48 <fizzie> I don't think I could've made myself write all those computed gotos in ff if it were c++.
15:49:51 <Keymaker> i just realized at the same moment i asked :)
15:50:31 <fizzie> this is probably one of those urls that keep circling around irc, but it was very convincing: http://www.j-walk.com/other/wifispray/
15:50:51 <fizzie> is that a rumble of thunder I hear? (or am I just hungry?)
15:51:22 <Keymaker> heh
15:51:39 <Keymaker> hmm, too bad probably not true :(
15:53:00 <fizzie> what, the wifi speed spray thing? how could it not be, there are _equations_ there.
15:53:12 <Keymaker> :)
15:53:39 <fizzie> besides, ted smith, todd smith, tina smith, toraido smith, theresa smith and tim smith all recommend it.
15:54:06 <Keymaker> ah, the agent family :)
15:57:09 <Keymaker> it'd take me a lot time to read those funge specifications, but what is the biggest difference between befunge 93 and 98, or are they even same language?
15:57:38 <fizzie> it's 'funge 98', and yes, they are the same language.
15:57:45 <fizzie> funge98 just has a lot of extensions.
15:57:49 <Keymaker> oh
15:58:09 <Keymaker> well, i'll use the 93 one when i use this
15:58:12 <fizzie> dynamically loading extensions (that map on the uppercase characters), multi-threading, n-dimensionality, even time travel.
15:58:50 <fizzie> actually I'm not sure if any implementations offer n-funge. trefunge interpreters there probably are.
15:59:13 <Keymaker> 'trefunge'?
15:59:38 <fizzie> in/out in addition to left/right/up/down.
15:59:49 <Keymaker> oh
15:59:58 <fizzie> most probably don't implement the time travel extension either.
16:00:05 <Keymaker> hehe
16:00:11 <Keymaker> that all goes too confusing :)
16:00:32 <fizzie> oh, and between '93 and '98 there was that funky funge with multithreading but a shared stack between all threads. (can't remember if it was '96 or '97)
16:00:44 <fizzie> a maybe not so good idea, that.
16:00:50 <Keymaker> yeah
16:01:24 <Keymaker> i wonder is there any language that anyone hadn't had skills to write an interpreter or a compiler?
16:02:09 <fizzie> oh, and the IP delta (direction) doesn't need to be (1, 0), (0, 1), (-1, 0) or (0, -1) any longer, but it can be any vector with integer components.
16:02:28 <fizzie> which is a pretty lame thing to do, since it lets you jump around. too easy.
16:02:36 <Keymaker> yah
16:02:58 <fizzie> there's also the ';' "skip code until next ;" command, which I consider cheating too.
16:03:11 <Keymaker> yeah
16:03:33 <Keymaker> there was that '#' that jumps over one?
16:03:39 <Keymaker> cell
16:03:43 <fizzie> not sure if funge98 included the hex-number-extension though. ('a', 'b', .. 'f' which would push 10, 11, .. 15.)
16:03:52 <fizzie> yeah, but that's too useful to remove.
16:04:06 <Keymaker> :)
16:04:25 <fizzie> mooz's mostly-befunge-93 interpreter for the ti-86 calculator family (bef86?) included [a-f].
16:04:44 <Keymaker> hmm
16:05:25 <Keymaker> are those 1-9 (and a-f) kinda like variables in befunge?
16:05:39 <Keymaker> that one can save some number into those?
16:05:57 <fizzie> nno.
16:06:01 <Keymaker> ok
16:06:04 <fizzie> they just push the corresponding number to stack.
16:06:20 <Keymaker> ah
16:06:30 <fizzie> there are no variables, just the stack. oh, and you can write/read to/from the playfield.
16:06:43 <Keymaker> i see
16:06:48 <fizzie> oh, right, funge98 also includes the "stack stack"
16:06:58 <Keymaker> heh
16:07:05 <fizzie> where instead of a single stack you actually have a stack of stacks, and you can manipulate those.
16:07:20 <Keymaker> kinda cheating again :)
16:07:58 <fizzie> kinda. oh, and it includes a "system information" command, which has the side-effect (can't remember if this was in the standard) that you can use it like the PICK word from forth.
16:07:58 <Keymaker> in some ways that 98 version makes the whole thing a lot easier, but also a lot more confusing if someone wants to use all the things possible in it
16:08:18 <fizzie> (if you're not familiar with forth, it just reaches into the stack and pulls out a number from an arbitrary depth.)
16:08:38 <Keymaker> i wasn't familiar with that
16:08:51 <fizzie> I hope it indeed was 'pick'.
16:08:56 <fizzie> haven't been doing forth much lately.
16:10:22 <fizzie> oh, and the playfield was redefined from the older "80x25-unit torus-grid" to "infinite lahey-space"
16:10:33 <Keymaker> :)
16:10:50 <Keymaker> so, in 93 there's 80x25 'cells' to play with?
16:11:09 <fizzie> yes.
16:11:30 <fizzie> in a strictly conforming befunge93 interpreter/compiler/thing, that is.
16:12:03 <Keymaker> ok
16:13:21 <Keymaker> some smaller limits in languages is what i've always liked
16:13:24 <fizzie> oh, and another difference: '93 had a defined 8-bit playfield and 32-bit stack. in funge98 the actual amount of bits is implementation-defined, but stack cells and playfield cells will be the same size.
16:13:45 <fizzie> mostly 32 bits, I guess.
16:14:09 <Keymaker> hmm
16:14:27 <fizzie> but you can put anything from the stack to the playfield without having to worry about it being too big.
16:14:35 <Keymaker> yes
16:15:51 <Keymaker> it isn't pretty useful to have 32-bit stack and 8-bit playfield in 93'?
16:16:39 <fizzie> well, that's the way it is.
16:16:44 <Keymaker> yeah
16:17:16 <fizzie> sorta-makes sense. the playfield is "text", composed of eight-bit octets, and the stack isn't 8-bit to allow you to calculate with larger numbers.
16:17:31 <Keymaker> yeah
16:17:50 <Keymaker> actully it sounds pretty logical when you said it that way :)
16:19:23 <Keymaker> a bit off-topic, do you know any language that would have less instructions that bf's 8?
16:19:41 <fizzie> sure. I'm just bad in remembering these.
16:19:45 <Keymaker> ok
16:19:49 <Keymaker> i wonder how they work..
16:19:50 <fizzie> there was the one-instruction assembly language.
16:20:01 <Keymaker> wow
16:21:29 <Keymaker> hmm, now when i think about it probably some language could be made with three instructions probablu
16:21:40 <fizzie> ah, there. oisc.
16:21:46 <Keymaker> hmm
16:21:55 <fizzie> one variant being a language with a single "substract and branch if negative" instruction.
16:22:02 <fizzie> http://www.hawaga.org.uk/text/oisc1.html
16:22:06 <Keymaker> cheers
16:23:22 <fizzie> I probably heard about them first in the retrocomputing museum site linked from that page.
16:23:45 <fizzie> which has disappeared, it seems.
16:23:51 <Keymaker> too bad :(
16:24:13 <fizzie> ah, just a broken link. google finds it easily enough.
16:24:35 <Keymaker> good :)
16:26:14 <fizzie> I would recommend you to see the 'pilot' link there, but it seems to be broken.
16:26:28 <fizzie> severe link rot in the internet nowadays.
16:26:44 <Keymaker> yah
16:29:31 <fizzie> AUTHOR'S DISCLAIMER
16:29:31 <fizzie> Don't blame me for the language design; I think it's wretched, too,
16:29:31 <fizzie> and I only did this implementation for the hack value. Finally, a
16:29:31 <fizzie> *real* language that's as perverse and limiting as INTERCAL...
16:29:42 <fizzie> writes esr in his pilot interpreter READ.ME file.
16:30:03 <Keymaker> :)
16:30:16 <Keymaker> sounds nice
16:31:27 <fizzie> I'd recommend reading the standard and the comments.mm from the same pilot distribution, it was loads of fun, but I'm not sure finding those online would be very easy. it's IEEE standard 1154-1991.
16:31:59 <Keymaker> ok
16:32:13 <Keymaker> i'll try to see if i find something someday
16:32:19 <fizzie> esr's implementation is for example in gehennom.org/~fizban/tmp/pilot-1.7.tar.gz (since I found it in my ~/tmp/ still.)
16:32:37 <fizzie> I had the standard too, but I'm not sure where I put it.
16:33:00 <fizzie> it's not in ~/txt/ for some reason.
16:34:24 <fizzie> that standard number seems bogus.
16:34:40 <fizzie> "1154-1991.pdf archived [Bus Architecture/Microprocessor/Microcomputer]"
16:37:19 <fizzie> hm, no.
16:37:22 <fizzie> correct it was.
16:37:24 <fizzie> "1154-1991 IEEE Standard for Programmed Inquiry, Learning, or Teaching (PILOT)"
16:38:18 <Keymaker> hmm
16:40:15 <Keymaker> hmmm, i think i'll go now :(
16:40:30 <Keymaker> it has been nice chatting, see you some other time :)
16:41:09 <fizzie> I'll abuse hut's IEEE account to re-fetch the standard since I seem to have terminally misplaced it.
16:41:12 <fizzie> bye.
16:41:16 <Keymaker> bye
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17:36:40 <lament> you guys have talked for pages and pages.
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20:01:23 <Keymaker> hmmm, does Daniel C., that brainf#ck coder, visit this place sometimes?
20:05:32 <fizzie> sometimes an apparition with the nickname 'dbc' indeed appears. usually it creates some sort of piece of ascii art.
20:05:50 <Keymaker> :)
20:05:58 <Keymaker> ok, thanks for info
20:06:17 <Keymaker> just thought it would be nice to talk him a bit sometime :)
20:07:01 <fizzie> for example, see what happens in the beginning of http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/04.05.25
20:08:41 <Keymaker> haha interesting :D
20:09:17 <fizzie> another example is http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/04.04.29
20:09:37 <fizzie> and .28 too.
20:13:04 <Keymaker> heh strange stuff, but well made
20:13:26 <Keymaker> i wonder if it's some brainfuck program that did those fractals?
20:14:40 <lament> probably not
20:14:58 <Keymaker> yeah
20:44:21 <Keymaker> Just curiously asking; how old is this channel? I mean how many year you've been here?
20:45:14 <fizzie> I don't think it's been very long.
20:45:34 <Keymaker> ok
20:45:36 <fizzie> in one sets of my irc logs #esoteric.log was first opened Mon Dec 09 07:24:10 2002
20:45:52 <Keymaker> hmmm
20:45:58 <Keymaker> not long time ago
20:48:04 <fizzie> hm, my lists/lang-eso email folder has 840 messages. wouldn't have thought it that active.
20:48:15 <Keymaker> wow
20:48:30 <Keymaker> is there any way to read those in web?
20:49:12 <fizzie> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:08:17 +0000 (GMT)
20:49:17 <fizzie> Subject: [chat] Re: Esolang IRC channel
20:49:22 <fizzie> OK, so now we can be found at OPN, #esoteric (it's ours!).
20:50:05 <fizzie> http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/ should have the list archives.
20:50:19 <fizzie> although it's been pretty silent lately.
20:50:39 <Keymaker> ok - thanks a lot! :)
21:08:35 <Keymaker> Interesting material.,
21:11:21 <mooz-> quux.befunge.org/jsbef for all your online computation needs :)
21:12:19 <mooz-> mainly it's the only useful debugger I know that works in linux
21:12:31 <Keymaker> hmmm
21:12:42 <Keymaker> looks very nice
21:18:44 <fizzie> except the glfunge98 debugger, which exists in approximately .2% of the parallel universes. not in this one, unfortunately.
21:19:54 <mooz-> for wumpus cave generation, jsbef is a lot slower than bef86
21:20:28 <fizzie> "the de-facto befunge93 benchmark"
21:20:34 <mooz-> all that javascript optimisation and still a 10000x speed difference compared to simple assembly
21:20:40 <fizzie> although I've always used fibre when comparing interpreters.
21:20:59 <mooz-> yep
21:25:57 <fizzie> which maybe isn't the most balanced befunge program ever written.
21:26:06 <fizzie> doesn't measure stringmode speed at all, for example. :p
21:26:48 <mooz-> well, put/get may have "unnecessary" penalties
21:26:57 <mooz-> like checking for illegal memory accesses :P
21:29:16 <mooz-> and a JIT style intepreter would have to do a lot of processing to deal with self-modification
21:31:26 <fizzie> mm.
21:31:45 <fizzie> wonder how lindi's x86 compiler thing is doing.
21:39:03 <lament> heh
21:39:19 <lament> i _almost_ wrote a befunge debugger
21:39:31 <lament> but not quite
21:39:32 <Keymaker> almost? :)
21:39:47 <lament> well, i wanted to write one.
21:39:47 <mooz-> I wrote one with single stepping in C and got bored :)
21:42:27 <mooz-> if that qualifies as almost, then all the almosts over the world should qualify as several quite functionals :)
21:43:27 <fizzie> you wrote the ti-86 debugger thing, and a ti-86 befunge interpreter. combine these two and you have a befunge debugger.
21:43:39 <fizzie> maybe not the easiest one, but still.
21:43:50 <lament> mooz-: you wrote the ti86 interpreter?
21:43:53 <lament> sweet
21:44:14 <Keymaker> it sounds pretty impressive
21:44:15 <lament> i've sort of looked at it
21:44:29 <lament> i think it crashed :)
21:44:40 <mooz-> wah :)
21:44:41 <lament> but it was very impressive :)
21:45:05 <mooz-> yeah I think it crashes if there are no befunge programs on the calculator :>
21:45:16 <fizzie> I've played hunt-the-wumpus with it during boring math lectures in was-it-now-high-school-or-what-oh-the-school-systems-are-so-different-everywhere.
21:45:32 <lament> neat
21:45:47 <lament> i deleted it because actually _editing_ befunge programs was such a pain
21:45:56 <fizzie> I don't think I've done anything else that would be considered useful with it.
21:46:18 <lament> i wrote a bf interpreter in ti-basic, but my physics substitute teacher deleted it :|
21:46:25 <Keymaker> :(
21:46:31 <lament> i never did revenge him
21:46:33 <lament> well
21:46:37 <Keymaker> really bad luck :(
21:46:43 <mooz-> that's horrible :/
21:46:45 <fizzie> I wrote a 'furth' interpreter in ti-basic. a forth-clone/forth-based-language.
21:46:48 <fizzie> it was.. pretty slow?
21:46:50 <lament> unless writing a combinatory logic interpreter qualifies as revenge
21:46:56 <lament> which it probably does
21:47:25 <lament> it understood s,k,i and * for output :)
21:47:45 <lament> and i nearly went mad designing it.
21:48:13 <mooz-> I can imagine
21:48:26 <mooz-> ti-basic is one of the worst flavors ever
21:49:02 <Keymaker> i haven't had a good change to test the language :( always too busy
21:49:11 <Keymaker> ti-basic i mean
21:49:15 <lament> it's sufficiently broken to be considered esoteric
21:50:06 <lament> especially if you use the calculator to input the code
21:50:25 <mooz-> indeed
21:50:39 <mooz-> I don't think there's any way to input characters like _ \ `
21:51:07 <mooz-> one has to make a string or basic program on the computer to do that :P
21:51:23 <fizzie> one way to do that is with the befunge interpreter and put, right?
21:51:41 <mooz-> yeah :P
21:51:50 <mooz-> and then freeze the state
21:52:52 <mooz-> so the frozen program contains the altered playfield
21:54:09 <lament> disgusting
21:54:22 <lament> but the assembly wasn't exactly better :)
21:54:46 <mooz-> z80 is nice
21:56:02 <mooz-> however the supplied coding method of typing hex values might not be optimal
21:56:14 <fizzie> but after you've managed to input them once, you can put them to custom menu and then you at least _can_ write befunge with the normal editor.
21:56:33 <fizzie> although programs with >=20-character lines were problematic.
21:56:46 <lament> i dunno about z80 being nice
21:56:57 <lament> maybe it is
21:57:05 <lament> maybe i just don't appreciate assembly
21:57:17 <Keymaker> i would like to learn it..
21:57:28 <lament> it would certainly be cool to hack together some custom hardware using a z80 as the brain
21:58:03 <lament> that would require learning so much stuff it's not even funny.
21:58:03 <fizzie> z80 felt definitely nicer to write for than for example 6502. not that I'd have done much with either.
21:58:48 <mooz-> lament; thought about that at some point, but abandoned the idea due to massively sucking in electronics :P
21:58:49 <fizzie> I have seven z80 cpus somewhere here, in case I ever felt like that. 'yleiselektroniikka' sold those for something like 0.50e/piece.
21:58:57 <lament> the most i have done in z80 was a program that converted a (hardcoded) number into a string like "three thousand eleven hundred fity one"
21:59:11 <lament> fizzie: not connected to anything?
21:59:32 <mooz-> an fpga platform from xilinx might be fun for practising with an fpga though
21:59:32 <fizzie> inside a plastic tube-like cover. not connected, no.
21:59:41 <mooz-> vhdl isn't that bad
21:59:43 <fizzie> my biggest z80 program is the md5 algo and OTP-key-calculator.
22:00:45 <fizzie> anyway, building custom stuff with a z80 is significantly harder than with pic-like chips. z80 cpu needs external memory and a set of supportive chips.
22:00:50 <mooz-> I was playing around with the idea of a chip for interpreting intercal
22:01:04 <mooz-> select and butterfly are ridiculously expensive
22:01:14 <mooz-> while a hardware butterfly is just some wires crossed
22:01:23 <fizzie> you were supposed to build us befunge processor, not intercal-optimized ones.
22:01:35 <mooz-> select is no more complex than a multiply
22:01:52 <mooz-> fizzie; yeah, but then thought it'd be slower than an interpreter running on a modern pc
22:01:53 <lament> fizzie: you know hardware/electronics stuff?
22:02:29 <fizzie> lament; no, but I have the z80 book from zilog somewhere, and after looking at it I indefinitely postponed any z80-based electronic-building-projects.
22:02:41 <lament> fizzie: :(
22:02:54 <mooz-> you gave the book to me I think :P
22:02:54 <fizzie> besides, I hate soldering stuff together, mainly because I so much suck at it.
22:03:09 <mooz-> there's definitely one book here that wasn't before
22:03:16 <fizzie> possibly.
22:03:18 <lament> electronics stuff sounds so cool and exciting.
22:03:30 <mooz-> vhdl would be a sane way to do it
22:03:44 <fizzie> it sounds cool and exciting, but in the end you've left with a lump of solder and the smell of burning plastic.
22:03:51 <fizzie> s/ve/re/
22:03:52 <mooz-> no need to mess with any hardware, just write code and synthesize the logic :)
22:04:21 <mooz-> the existing test platforms have serial, parallel and vga ports
22:05:07 <lament> at the very least i want one of those small LCDs that one could hack to connect to the serial port and display uptime
22:05:22 <lament> but even that requires much more skills, knowledge and equipment than i posess :(
22:05:57 <fizzie> I have a 20x4 alphanumeric lcd here.
22:06:05 <fizzie> just waiting for someone to solder the connections. :p
22:06:25 <mooz-> soldering is a huge pain :/
22:06:45 <lament> you could get a breadboard
22:07:18 <mooz-> it was a pain just to solder some wires to a normal socket
22:07:29 <fizzie> you don't really need any _knowledge_ for that, though, the thing is directly interfaceable to a normal parallel port. 8 data lines into the chip, few status/output lines that can be tied into the parallel port control lines (out of paper, on/offline and stuff).
22:08:04 <lament> What do you have to solder then?
22:08:26 <fizzie> well, 12+ wires onto the lcd display, and the same wires into a d25 connector.
22:09:06 <mooz-> I think our attempt to solder 5 wires into one DIN resulted in 3 being connected at one point
22:09:13 <mooz-> then it went downwards again
22:09:14 <fizzie> oh yes.
22:09:24 <fizzie> and a 5-din connector is relatively big.
22:09:59 <lament> hm
22:10:09 <lament> what equipment would i need to start with electronics stuff?
22:10:26 <lament> A soldering iron, a breadboard, a multimeter - is that all?
22:10:33 <mooz-> pretty much
22:10:38 <fizzie> heaps of patience.
22:10:41 <mooz-> and some components, obviously
22:10:43 <fizzie> non-shaky hands.
22:11:22 <lament> hmm
22:11:48 <fizzie> some 10+ years ago I built few of those "kit contains a pcb, the required components and assembly instructions" kits with a friend.
22:12:50 <lament> and then what happened?
22:12:54 <fizzie> of course soldering stuff into a pre-made pcb with ~1cm empty spaces between stuff I could accidentally mess up I managed to do.
22:14:18 <mooz-> I think the easiest way is to get a breadboard with pre-made connectors going in one direction
22:14:31 <mooz-> then a small drill for severing them as necessary
22:14:49 <fizzie> I have few pieces of that.
22:15:48 <mooz-> and some thin wire for doing connections in the perpendicular direction
22:16:22 <mooz-> that way soldering points can be as far apart as one wants
22:16:29 <lament> i have never even seen a breadboard, but they sure sound sexy
22:17:47 <mooz-> it helps to have a simple but important project
22:18:07 <mooz-> such as interfacing to a 1570 floppy drive :P
22:18:58 <lament> is that a floppy drive made in 1570?
22:19:07 <mooz-> almost
22:19:14 <mooz-> it's for the C64/C128
22:19:24 <lament> sweet
22:19:29 <fizzie> gehennom.org/~fizban/tmp/lcd.jpg
22:19:54 <fizzie> there's a 20x4-character lcd screen.
22:20:10 <fizzie> the thing under it is a normal-sized cd so you could see the size.
22:20:37 <mooz-> doesn't seem to fit in a 5.25" drive bay
22:20:48 <fizzie> a bit too high, yes.
22:21:14 <fizzie> there's a row of 16 contacts, and I should attach and solder a wire into all of them, without any pieces of metal touching each other.
22:21:49 <fizzie> that's the main reason the display's not connected to anything and spends its time in a vaguely pink plastic bag under (other) heaps of junk here.
22:21:50 <Keymaker> i'll go, good nite
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22:21:52 <lament> where would all those wires lead to?
22:22:38 <mooz-> parallel port connector?
22:23:17 <fizzie> 8 would go to the output lines of a pc parallel port, "a few" (4? 5?) would go to the out/in/both status-lines of a pc parallel port, two would connect to a +5v dc power supply, and one would hold a potentiometer-thing controlling the brightness of the backlight.
22:25:56 <fizzie> you can check out http://www.powertip.com.tw/product/PC%20SERIES/PC%201602F.PDF if you really want to know.
22:27:01 <lament> oh god
22:27:03 <fizzie> I also had the programming instructions somewhere.
22:27:13 <lament> and from that pdf you're supposed to understand how to wire it?
22:27:40 <fizzie> well, from that and all the other documentation in the interweb about interfacing lcd displays with a pc parallel port.
22:28:18 -!- Toreun has joined.
22:29:38 <fizzie> like, uh, the stuff in http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ih/doc/par/
22:30:14 <fizzie> it's not the "what wire goes where" aspect of this thing that causes trouble, it's the physical act of getting the damn things connected the way I'd want them to be.
22:31:36 <fizzie> actually I'd just want to write the code to control that thing.
22:31:46 <mooz-> * Tech Support: "Sir...the 286 chip is soldered on the motherboard!"
22:31:47 <mooz-> * Customer: "I know, I took out my handy soldering iron and took it out and put the 486 on myself."
22:31:47 <mooz-> * Tech Support: "Sir, the 486 is bigger than the 286."
22:31:47 <mooz-> * Customer: "I know, I had to use quite a bit of solder to solder the extra pins together."
22:31:54 <mooz-> I wish it worked like that
22:32:53 <fizzie> oh well. back in your pink plastic back you go, little lcd, to wait for better times.
22:33:08 <lament> when you get married
22:33:13 <lament> your wife will do it for you
22:33:29 <fizzie> I was thinking more about the time when I have my very own robotic servant I can tell to do the soldering.
22:33:35 <fizzie> I think that's a far more likely outcome.
22:34:12 <fizzie> of course there's the problem that robots always turn against humans.
22:34:33 <fizzie> but maybe I could persuade it to solder my lcd display before it kills me.
22:34:36 <lament> so do wives
22:34:49 <mooz-> probably 50/50 with those
22:35:18 <mooz-> same as robots, really
22:37:57 <mooz-> maybe you'll wait until you get a bald, green head, learn telekinesis, start wearing a skin-colored human mask and worship a large atomic bomb
22:38:02 <mooz-> it's bound to happen
22:38:18 <mooz-> (the telekinesis may then help)
22:39:53 <fizzie> I can learn telekinesis already.
22:40:15 <fizzie> I just need to buy a $30 CD, with superliminal hypnotic programming.
22:40:15 <fizzie> I learned this from the internet.
22:46:21 <fizzie> alt.folklore.computers tells of their variant of hexadecimal notation, where the digits were 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, K, S, N, J, F, L.
22:46:39 <fizzie> "0xK7NL1JSS"
22:47:21 <fizzie> er s/their/a system called ORDVAC's/
22:50:24 <lament> wonedrful
22:50:36 <lament> what do those letters stand for?
22:54:07 <fizzie> no idea. selected presumedly for legibility reasons instead of the usual [a-f]set.
22:54:28 <fizzie> " Through arrangements made by Dean L. N. Ridenour, the University of Illinois began construction of ORDVAC about 15 April 1949"
22:54:49 <fizzie> that's my birthday, only 34 years earlier.
22:55:27 <fizzie> the arithmetic unit in it can do a multiply in 700 microseconds. impressive!
22:56:54 <fizzie> " When ORDVAC was delivered to the Ballistic Research Laboratory its input device was a standard-speed five hole teletype tape reader and its output a teletype page printer. With this equipment, the time necessary to load the entire memory of 1,024 addresses was 38 minutes. The time required to print the contents of the entire memory was the same."
22:57:03 <fizzie> things have definitely changed since then.
23:00:40 <lament> what's an 'address'?
23:00:43 <lament> a byte?
23:00:50 <lament> 5-bit?
23:00:58 <lament> 10 bit?
23:01:48 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure. it seems to use "electrostatic memory" built with cathode-ray tubes.
23:02:08 <lament> yes, but if the teletype reader had 5 holes
23:02:14 <lament> 5-bit seems logical
23:02:26 <fizzie> well, it's "1024 words"
23:02:47 <lament> well
23:02:55 <lament> it's logical that words would be 10-bit
23:03:03 <fizzie> 40-bit words, actually.
23:03:11 <lament> oh, fuck logic then :)
23:03:37 <fizzie> words sizes usually haven't had that much to do with logic.
23:03:42 <lament> so the total memory of 40960 bit?
23:03:58 <lament> fizzie: sure, but you need 10 bits to address a space of 1024 addresses
23:04:04 <lament> not 40 bits
23:04:10 <fizzie> well, they later added an 10032-word magnetic drum.
23:04:34 <fizzie> yes, but you'd want to calculate with quantities >10 bits.
23:04:51 <lament> no
23:05:08 <lament> never
23:05:27 <fizzie> and even later replaced the electrostatic memory with a 4096--word 'magnetic core memory'.
23:05:45 <mooz-> high-tech
23:05:51 <lament> neat
23:06:03 <fizzie> I have somewhere here an orange book that tells how to convert algol-60 programs to fortran-2/4 programs.
23:06:46 <fizzie> it doesn't try to teach any of the languages, only what kind of fortran structures to convert algol structures to, and vice versa.
23:06:54 <lament> wow, http://www.norvig.com/palindrome.html
23:07:00 <fizzie> the book includes a few dozen pages filled with machine word sizes.
23:27:50 <mooz-> lament; I think there's finnish palindromes with several hundred words at least, which make up a semi-coherent story
23:28:47 <mooz-> that's more like a comma-separated list
23:29:57 <lament> probabyl because all finnish words are palindromes
23:30:01 <mooz-> :P
23:30:19 <lament> they have the same general structure
23:30:20 <mooz-> english isn't very suitable for them and finnish is the best suited language I know, that is true
23:30:23 <lament> VCCV
23:30:34 <lament> where V and V is the same vowel
23:30:39 <lament> and C and C is the same consonant :)
23:30:48 <mooz-> saippuakauppias is a word someone might seriously use
23:30:57 <mooz-> soap salesman
23:31:24 <Toreun> I saw a not-so-coherent english palidrome story that was about 2000 bytes long awhile ago
23:31:24 <lament> in some language the word 'palindrome' is a palindrome.
23:31:44 <mooz-> hehe
23:32:00 <lament> the word meaning the same as 'palindrome', rather :)
23:32:08 <lament> the word designating the concept of palindrome
23:32:12 <lament> gah, semantics
23:33:22 <lament> "the word that means palindrome"
23:34:21 <fizzie> >In any case, does anyone remember any other variant forms of
23:34:21 <fizzie> >> hexadecimal inflicted on the long-suffering computer programmer?
23:34:21 <fizzie> 0123456789STUVWX
23:34:22 <fizzie> on the first machine I ever programmed (or used), the mighty Monrobot XI
23:34:42 <mooz-> hah
23:34:56 <lament> i think ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP would be neat
23:35:10 <mooz-> wazzoobar
23:35:22 <lament> better yet, the 16 most common letters of the englihs alphabet
23:35:56 <lament> (i have implemented that as a "string encoding" once, for storing two characters in one byte)
23:36:19 <fizzie> mooz; wouldn't that be WizzooBar.
23:36:26 <mooz-> yeah
23:36:47 <mooz-> someone with the nick juuichiketajin posted a way to convert any number into a metasyntactic variable name
23:37:07 <fizzie> I have a sed script which does that for relatively big numbers.
23:38:32 <fizzie> errrr. did my brain just misfire? seems the sed script was about turning numbers to english text-representation.
23:38:51 <fizzie> but I have a C shared library (libfoo) to do it. :p
23:39:00 <mooz-> you never run out of good variable names when 1234567890 can be converted into FizzooBarDazzleBuzzazWazzooHizzooSpooRazzleKuzzinkKazzankKizzonk.
23:40:29 <fizzie> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9aqupt%24hd4%241%40bob.news.rcn.net has the original post.
23:40:51 <mooz-> www.hut.fi/~jjarvi1/foo2.scm shows them in action
23:41:16 <lament> what's with all the Zs
23:41:38 <fizzie> I had the "foo.scm" next to that foo2.scm printed out with my dot matrix printer and on my wall.
23:41:44 <fizzie> with the output it produces.
23:42:06 <mooz-> foo bar baz woo hoo spoo kink kank konk fizzoo fizzoofoo fizzoobar...
23:42:20 <mooz-> the izz/azz/uzz designate 10, 100, 1000
23:42:43 <fizzie> char * foo_val[9][2] = {
23:42:43 <fizzie> {"F", "oo"}, {"B", "ar"}, {"B", "az"},
23:42:43 <fizzie> {"W", "oo"}, {"H", "oo"}, {"Sp", "oo"},
23:42:43 <fizzie> {"K", "ink"}, {"K", "ank"}, {"K", "onk"}
23:42:43 <fizzie> };
23:42:45 <fizzie> char * foo_add[4] = {"", "izz", "azz", "uzz"};
23:42:48 <fizzie> char * foo_div[4] = {"Razzle", "Dazzle", "Giggle", "Wiggle"};
23:42:54 <fizzie> is what my libfoo used.
23:43:24 <fizzie> not sure where the Giggle and Wiggle came from.
23:43:32 <mooz-> luckily you get quite a few names before having to resort to giggling
23:43:38 <mooz-> I'm afraid I came up with those
23:44:20 <fizzie> a random metasyntactic variable: FizzooWooGiggleKuzzinkBazzazBizzarKonkDazzleKuzzankWazzooKizzinkBarRazzleKuzzonkBazzazKizzankWoo
23:45:42 <mooz-> I suppose they could be used as jump targets and the assembler could turn them into a memory address
23:46:08 <mooz-> useful for jumping into a preset location somewhere, and pretending there's a label
23:46:34 <fizzie> next time I write a disassembler or a decompiler or something that needs to generate lost labels, I'll just foo-convert the values of the labels.
23:46:55 <fizzie> goto WuzzooBazzazKizzonkKankDazzleKuzzinkWazzooKizzonkKankRazzleBuzzarBazzazKizzinkHoo;
23:47:32 <mooz-> symbolic==good
23:47:38 <lament> yeah
23:47:42 <lament> witness the power of DNS
23:47:53 <lament> this metasyntactic system makes DNS obsolete, though
23:47:57 <fizzie> indeed.
23:48:00 <fizzie> no need for resolvers.
23:48:02 <lament> what's google.com in metasyntactic?
23:48:17 <fizzie> google has a lot of addresses.
23:48:32 <fizzie> BuzzarFazzooSpizzooBarDazzleBuzzazKazzonkBazRazzleKuzzinkKizzonkKonk would be one.
23:48:44 <lament> Easy to remember.
23:48:52 <lament> Requires no overhead.
23:48:57 <fizzie> (using the three-digit decimal way to convert the address. could use a 32-bit value.)
23:49:43 <fizzie> so obviously BizzazHooDazzleKuzzinkBazzarWizzooWooRazzleBuzzarWazzooSpizzooKink is another way to say the same thing.
23:50:35 <lament> Yes, they even look similar.
23:55:11 <fizzie> well, you see, (i=BizzazHooDazzleKuzzinkBazzarWizzooWooRazzleBuzzarWazzooSpizzooKink, ((i>>BizzarWoo)&BazzarHizzooHoo)*FizzooDazzle + ((i>>FizzooSpoo)&BazzarHizzooHoo)*FazzooRazzle + ((i>>Kank)&BazzarHizzooHoo)*Fuzzoo) would evaluate to BuzzarFazzooSpizzooBarDazzleBuzzazKazzonkBazRazzleKuzzinkKizzonkKonk.
23:55:57 <fizzie> nngh. obviously I mean: ((i>>BizzarWoo)&BazzarHizzooHoo)*FizzooDazzle + ((i>>FizzooSpoo)&BazzarHizzooHoo)*FazzooRazzle + ((i>>Kank)&BazzarHizzooHoo)*Fuzzoo + (i&BazzarHizzooHoo)
23:56:53 <deltab> obviously
23:57:02 <mooz-> curiously, also the japanese use 10000 as the point where a new unit name is used
23:57:20 <mooz-> hmm, could be related to the inventor's origins
23:58:20 <mooz-> it's just as logical and a lot more compact
00:08:49 <lament> i think 999 would be a good point.
00:09:01 <lament> So the system is decimal overall, but with a larger unit of 999
00:09:58 <lament> 0, 1, 2, ..., 10, 11, 12, ... 99, 100, 101, ... 997, 998, A1, A2
00:12:41 <fizzie> base-42 with 42 suitable digit symbols might be nice too.
00:12:53 <lament> bah
00:13:07 <lament> speaking more seriously, base 12 would be excellent.
00:15:53 <mooz-> how is 12 better than 6?
00:16:11 <lament> mooz-: shorter numbers, obviously
00:16:17 <lament> mooz-: also divisible by four which is nice
00:16:34 <lament> sufficiently close to 10 so that we know it would work well
00:31:44 <lament> hm, is there a cpu tarpit?
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10:46:21 <fizzie> morning.
10:46:39 <Keymaker> :)
10:47:27 <Keymaker> dcb been here?
10:58:45 <fizzie> nope.
10:59:00 <Keymaker> ok'
10:59:00 <fizzie> "what, we others are not good enough for you?"
10:59:06 <Keymaker> hehe
10:59:39 <Keymaker> noo, i just want to change a couple of words with him, that guy seems to be genius
11:05:38 <mtve> so we are.
11:05:49 <Keymaker> ok ok :)
11:06:09 <Keymaker> we - 1 to be exact, i'm not too bright
11:06:29 <Keymaker> :)
11:10:30 <fizzie> /me is relatively away. trying to teach myself dsp here, since the person who wrote this library I'm supposed to convert from floating-point math to integer math (to run on the phone, you see) doesn't work for us any longer.
11:11:51 <Keymaker> ok, good luck
11:35:40 <fizzie> the dsp guide is very encouraging. "Warning! Don't try to understand the shape of the real and imaginary parts: your head will explode!"
11:35:58 <Keymaker> :)
11:59:56 <Keymaker> Hmmm, really strange, one cd I bought smells like chicken noodles.. *confused*
12:47:24 <Keymaker> Hmmm, it's Back to the Future time. See you in the future.
12:47:27 <Keymaker> Or past.
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20:07:27 <Keymaker> hiya
20:09:40 <calamari_> hi keymaker
20:09:44 <Keymaker> hi
20:13:26 <fizzie> evening.
20:14:27 <Keymaker> evening
20:14:32 <Keymaker> been here the whole day? :)
20:15:30 <calamari_> well, the c parser is pretty much done
20:16:20 <Keymaker> hmmm, what the parser means?
20:17:16 <calamari_> keymaker: it takes a c source file and decides what the tokens are .. like "int" "main" "(" ")" "{" .. etc
20:17:19 <fizzie> depends on your definition of being.
20:17:35 <Keymaker> ah
20:18:00 <Toreun> calamari_ : what are you going to use this C parser for? another C compiler?
20:18:14 <fizzie> remember to parse 'a+++++b' to 'a', '++', '++', '+', 'b' (instead of a ++ + ++ b)
20:18:17 <calamari_> yeah.. I've never written a c compiler before
20:18:37 <calamari_> it does that.. but I can double check :)
20:19:21 <Toreun> fizzie: stuff like that is one of the reasons I never finished a non-esoteric compiler
20:20:30 <fizzie> probably most parsers would do it like that, the latter choice needs more intelligence. (and goes against the Standard.)
20:20:38 <calamari_> the way I did the operators was reading 2 characters at a time, then checking in a string like this "++--+ - (etc)" it will find a match with 2 chars before a match with one.. it recognizes the space as a wildcard
20:22:39 <calamari_> it worked fine BD BD BE (or ++ ++ +)
20:23:15 <calamari_> with spaces it will do a++ + ++b
20:23:47 <calamari_> iirc, with c you use the largest operator that matches
20:25:06 <fizzie> the Standard says, and I quote ISO/IEC 9899:1999, chapter 6.4, section 4: "If the input stream has been parsed into preprocessing tokens up to a given character, the next preprocessing token is the longest sequence of characters that could constitute a preprocessing token."
20:25:23 <fizzie> plus one exception to that.
20:25:39 <calamari_> so, what I said in better english :)
20:26:34 <calamari_> what is the exception?
20:26:47 <fizzie> the exception is: "a header name preprocessing token is only recognized within a #include preprocessing directive, and within such a directive, a sequence of characters that could be either a header name or a string literal is recognized as the former."
20:27:56 <calamari_> ahh.. I won't be supporting #includes so I'm good
20:28:10 <Toreun> a c compiler without #includes?
20:28:13 <fizzie> then it's not a C compiler you're writing.
20:28:22 <calamari_> at least not in the normal way.. because bf doesn't really work well with file i/o :)
20:28:42 <Toreun> this c compiler is in bf?
20:29:10 <calamari_> toreun: not yet.. can't bootstrap until I finish
20:29:38 <fizzie> is this a 'c compiler compiling to brainf*ck' or a 'c compiler written in brainf*ck compiling to foo'?
20:29:44 <calamari_> toreun: I did the bfbasic compiler, so once I get past all the extra expression stuff in c it shouldn't be much different
20:29:54 <Toreun> oh, ok
20:29:57 <calamari_> fizzie: 'c compiler compiling to brainf*ck'
20:30:05 <fizzie> ah. that makes more sense.
20:30:06 <Toreun> ooh that's interesting
20:30:15 <Keymaker> interesting :)
20:30:17 <Toreun> does it optimize?
20:30:22 <calamari_> of course not :)
20:30:27 <Toreun> good
20:30:53 <fizzie> someone (maybe you?) was talking about creating a brainf*ck target for gcc. although I think that might be even harder to write than a simple "C" compiler.
20:30:57 <calamari_> I had a breakthrough on how I would handle memory and pointers, so I decided to go for it
20:30:58 <Toreun> though having loops upon loops upon loops would definitely be fun
20:31:08 <calamari_> fizzie: yeah, that was me.. I gave up on the idea
20:31:26 <fizzie> anyway, I wouldn't want to have to create a Standard-conforming C compiler.
20:31:43 <calamari_> fizzie: I checked gcc, sdcc, tcc, lcc.. none were easy to write a backend for
20:32:18 <fizzie> for a nice example of the language used in the Standard, see http://gehennom.org/~fizban/tmp/restrict.html
20:32:53 <calamari_> fizzie: I'm trying my best not to do things intentionally against the standard (i.e. void main()), but at the same time I'm leaving things out
20:33:32 <calamari_> fizzie: so if someone wants to add on, they can
20:34:26 <calamari_> anyhow.. the memory system is basically a giant array on top of memory. I think I'm going with 32-bit pointers
20:35:01 <calamari_> that way I can go to any memory cell I want without < > headaches
20:36:16 <calamari_> goto's will be handled similarly to bfbasic, but I think I'll make them 16-bit. function names will be 6 characters long and follow the same idea
20:37:02 <Keymaker> is 'bfbasic' some program released?
20:37:31 <calamari_> yeah, http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/compilers/bfbasic/bfbasic.html
20:37:37 <Keymaker> cheers
20:38:13 <calamari_> I wrote it in java.. that was so much easier than c
20:38:34 <fizzie> what are you writing this c compiler in, then?
20:38:42 <calamari_> c this time
20:39:26 <Keymaker> this sounds like really hard job to do, how long you've been working on it?
20:39:34 <calamari_> two days
20:39:40 <Keymaker> ok
20:39:58 <Keymaker> well, good luck with it :)
20:40:24 <calamari_> yeah.. it shouldn't be as bad as last time, because most of the bf code has already been written
20:40:27 <calamari_> thanks tho :)
20:41:51 <Toreun> what memory limitations are you gonna have? I notice your basic one only supports 256 variables
20:41:57 <Toreun> (if any)
20:43:52 <calamari_> toreun: 32-bit memory, variable names will be stored in some perverted kind of linked list (no structs), so hopefully no limit there. 65536 labels per function
20:46:27 <Toreun> is there a standard for that?
20:46:48 <calamari_> for what
20:48:33 <calamari_> actually 65534 labels, because 0 would be reserved for exit and 1 for return
20:50:03 <calamari_> hmm.. 0 could be a function call instead, that would handle exit
20:50:20 <calamari_> still deciding on certain things ;)
20:51:07 <calamari_> also, I'm not sure how big a stack I'll need
20:51:30 <Toreun> whoops I just made a stupid mistake with the arguments for my bf interpreter
20:51:58 <Keymaker> what kind of?
20:52:10 <Toreun> rewriting my interpreter with the debugging dump
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20:52:44 <calamari_> toreun: but, hopefully to answer your question, there isn't much of a standard for memory size anyways, is there?
20:53:09 <Toreun> true. wow, 16 people in this room, is that a record or something
20:53:27 <calamari_> toreun: the program just grows with > to the right.. it's up to the bf interp/comp to handle big memory
20:53:46 <fizzie> the Standard specifies a few lowest possible limits for c.
20:55:21 <fizzie> 127 nesting levels of blocks, 63 nesting levels of conditional inclusion, 12 pointer, array, and function declarators (in any order) modifying an arithmetic, structure, union or incomplete type in a declaration, 63 nesting levels of parenthesized declarators within a full declarator.
20:56:25 <calamari_> what are blocks.. is that what I'm calling a function call?
20:56:52 <fizzie> anything with {}s probably. I'll look at the formal definition soon.
20:56:56 <fizzie> 63 nesting levels of parenthesized expressions within a full expression, 63 significant initial characters in an internal identifier or macro name (you'll be failing this?).
20:57:03 <calamari_> that's okay.. not a big deal
20:57:16 <fizzie> something broken in my pdf, makes no sense, apparently few lines are missing.
20:58:00 <fizzie> erh, ok.
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20:58:18 <calamari-> argh :)
20:58:30 <Toreun> calamari, you've been cloned
20:58:35 <calamari-> yeah,.. I was thinking about handling longer function names but it would slow things down a lot
20:59:44 <calamari-> I use the name to emulate a jump (checks each label until it finds the one matching the call)
20:59:44 <fizzie> "31 significant characters in an external identifier (each universal character name specifying a short identifier of 0000FFFF or less is considered 6 characters, each universal character name specifying a short identifier of 00010000 or more is considered 10 characters, and each extended source character is considered the same number of characters as the corresponding universal character name, if any)"
21:01:28 <fizzie> 127 function parameters in a function/macro call or a declaration.
21:02:11 <fizzie> nice lists of requirements there.
21:02:27 <calamari-> then I won't be following the exact c standard
21:02:44 <fizzie> remember to implement trigraphs, everyone loves those.
21:02:44 <calamari-> maybe I couldn't call it c then? :)
21:03:00 <calamari-> the person that loves them can implement them, then ;)
21:04:04 <fizzie> hey, it's a simple thing to do, just translate trigraphs to "real characters" in some suitable preprocessing phase.
21:04:11 <calamari-> I just want to get things working first before adding features (like bfbasic last time, it started off way primitive)
21:05:08 <fizzie> (actually the only sensible suitable stage is before anything else, trigraphs need to be replaced before any other processing takes place.)
21:05:17 <Toreun> how are floats being implemented?
21:05:44 <Toreun> you gonna create a float library for bf?
21:06:06 <fizzie> too bad there isn't a trigraph for ';', otherwise the comp.lang.c practice of writing ;-less valid C programs would be a lot easier.
21:06:44 <fizzie> maybe I should shut up about Standard C, it's not that esoteric after all.
21:07:03 <calamari-> toreun: they're not being implemented
21:07:38 <calamari-> here's a question
21:07:48 <calamari-> how can I do signed variables
21:09:03 <calamari-> I was thinking of doing it the asm way, but there are problems with it, because on negative numbers + and - are swapped
21:09:27 <fizzie> "the asm way"?
21:10:30 <fizzie> how do you store larger-than-char variables anyway? as consecutive bytes in the brainf*ck array?
21:11:30 <fizzie> I am thinking your compiler will possibly generate rather large brainf*ck files.
21:11:48 <calamari-> fizzie: yeah , "consecutive" isn't right next to each other tho, because there is overhead in the bf array
21:12:00 <calamari-> yeah they will be huge :)
21:12:22 <calamari-> so you guys need to start writing bf code optimizers :P
21:13:13 <calamari-> I think it will be even worse than bfbasic, because of the extra mmemory/array limits I imposed on bfbasic
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21:15:09 <fizzie> I was supposed to write a scheme interpreter in postscript once.
21:15:20 <fizzie> but that's still in the 'planning' stage mostly.
21:15:55 <fizzie> there were few ways I could "cheat", like use the built-in gc provided by recent enough postscript environments, but then it wouldn't run in all printers.
21:20:31 <fizzie> hey, one of our local tv channels will show the 'dark star' movie.
21:20:52 <Keymaker> now?
21:21:01 <fizzie> tomorrow.
21:21:05 <Keymaker> ok
21:21:13 <Keymaker> better remember :)
21:21:29 <fizzie> although I think they (or some other channel) showed it relatively recently.
21:21:35 <fizzie> and it made ~no sense anyway.
21:21:39 <calamari-> fizzie: thanks for the c specs, btw. I probably won't end up following them, but at least I can make a better note in the docs of where things are lacking
21:22:15 <fizzie> I'm rather sure that not even 'gcc -ansi -pedantic -trigraphs' follows the spec to the letter.
21:28:10 <fizzie> well, actually I was reading from the c99 spec, and gcc even officially only partially support that.
21:28:41 <fizzie> I wonder where I have misplaced my (non-physical) copy of c89/c90.
21:47:19 <calamari-> bbl
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21:48:33 <fizzie> what a noisy channel this has become. where are the weeks of silence we used to have?
21:48:45 <lament> do you miss them so much?
21:48:52 <lament> Cause if you do, we could +q everybody.
21:49:40 <Keymaker> :)
21:50:05 <fizzie> ah right, +q, that funky danced-ircd feature.
21:50:30 <fizzie> we don't have it over there in ircnet.
22:05:06 <lament> hm
22:05:37 <lament> is there only one optimizing brainfuck compiler?
22:06:31 <fizzie> there can be only one.
22:08:30 <lament> i'm serious!
22:08:34 <lament> very!
22:09:28 <mtve> http://www.nada.kth.se/~matslina/awib/
22:10:05 <lament> that one doesn't really optimize much
22:11:26 <fizzie> I seem to recall a javascript thing did pretty nice "code optimization" for the 'trace' command output.
22:15:28 <fizzie> like, when I input "++++[>+<-]" and press 'execute-trace', it outputs "p[0] += 4 (= 4)" "p[1] += p[0] (= 4)" "p[0] = 0" into the trace window.
22:16:01 <fizzie> it doesn't do anything _too_ clever, though, and I haven't looked at the actual interpreter itself. is at http://home.planet.nl/~faase009/Ha_bf_online.html anyway.
22:18:17 <lament> yes.
22:20:50 <fizzie> oh, there's a "compile to C" button.
22:20:58 <fizzie> hasn't even noticed.
22:20:58 <lament> yes.
22:21:01 <lament> yes.
22:21:07 <fizzie> s/has/had/
22:21:24 <lament> yes.
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22:38:33 <Keymaker> hmmm
22:38:46 <Keymaker> I think I'll go, good night everyone. :)
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07:13:51 <Keymaker> hiya
07:17:19 <Toreun> hi
07:20:19 <Keymaker> hi
07:21:20 <Keymaker> soon i'll have to go and get my something-paper-where-is-grades 'cos summer break (!!) starts..
07:22:28 <Toreun> soon I'll have to go since it's 2 AM by me
07:22:33 <Keymaker> hehe :)
07:22:49 <Keymaker> i quit yesterday ~hour berofe that time
07:23:21 <Toreun> I'm only awake now because I'm playing bridge online on Yahoo Games
07:23:30 <Keymaker> hmm
07:23:36 <Keymaker> i haven't tried that game
07:24:05 <Toreun> I learned it in Calculus
07:24:15 <Toreun> (it's after the AP exam, so I don't have anything else do to in class)
07:24:26 <Keymaker> :)
07:25:26 <Toreun> it's surprisingly a lot of fun
07:25:35 <Keymaker> i bet
07:25:36 <Toreun> (bridge, not the AP exam)
07:25:43 <Keymaker> hehe
07:26:34 <Keymaker> many things that seem to be boring at first sight often happen to be very interesting/fun
07:26:45 <Toreun> like programming esoteric languages
07:26:54 <Keymaker> exactly :)
07:27:02 <Toreun> or programming in general
07:27:12 <Keymaker> yeah
07:27:20 <Keymaker> depends on language a lot
07:27:33 <Toreun> and depends on what you're writing
07:27:38 <Keymaker> yeah
07:27:44 <Keymaker> that's most important
07:27:50 <Toreun> that's one reason why I'm probably not going to take up programming as a career
07:28:00 <Keymaker> hmm
07:28:02 <Keymaker> yeah i see
07:28:22 <Keymaker> writing something 24/7 you don't like isn't a dream job
07:28:32 <Toreun> yeah
07:28:50 <Keymaker> but too bad, clock is ticking fast, i need to go that i don't miss the stuff there
07:28:53 <Keymaker> good night :)
07:29:00 <Toreun> g'night
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17:13:55 <Keymaker> ah, home sweet home :)
17:17:25 <fizzie> you missed dbc. :p
17:17:58 <Keymaker> nNOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
17:18:14 <Keymaker> i knew this, i knew this!
17:18:26 <Keymaker> something good had to happen when i was away for a day..
17:18:36 <fizzie> 10:27:31 -!- dbc [ttm@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com] has joined #esoteric
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17:18:46 <fizzie> from yesterday.
17:18:59 <Keymaker> :)
17:19:26 <Keymaker> a lot idling i see
17:19:51 <Keymaker> well, i hopefully he's here next saturday -- or week
17:20:54 <Keymaker> *i hope (small correction to the above ^)
17:24:13 <fizzie> he'll probably visit the moment you decide to drop from irc.
17:24:24 <Keymaker> yah
17:24:34 <Keymaker> too bad i can't keep this always on :(
17:33:38 <fizzie> well, it wouldn't much help if you were away. except you'd get to see him join and quit.
17:34:24 <Keymaker> well, i could try to say something between that joining and quiting time :)
17:35:06 <Keymaker> (looking at those logs you posted seems he was here ~7 hours)
17:39:11 <fizzie> that is true.
17:39:23 <fizzie> we do some pretty advanced idling here.
17:42:57 <Keymaker> hehe
17:43:00 <Keymaker> :D
17:43:05 * edwinb idles
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18:16:07 <Keymaker> argh, i have to got
18:16:12 <Keymaker> darn
18:16:25 <Keymaker> i pressed accidentally enter, i'll write the message again
18:16:52 <Keymaker> argh, i have to go and start baking a pizza :( i'll be back later
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19:05:28 <K> hmmm, what was the command to change name.. /nick?
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19:05:52 -!- t has changed nick to Keymaker[-].
19:06:01 <Keymaker[-]> done
19:06:51 * Toreun is confused
19:08:54 <Keymaker[-]> ?
19:11:31 <Toreun> nevermind
19:12:22 <Keymaker[-]> o k
19:14:05 <Keymaker[-]> so, how's your day Toreun? been working on anything? :)
19:22:19 <Toreun> it's been pretty good
19:22:21 <Toreun> working on my website
19:22:26 <Keymaker[-]> ah i see
19:22:28 -!- Keymaker has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:22:37 <Keymaker[-]> hmmm
19:22:43 <Keymaker[-]> is it in web yet?
19:22:46 <Toreun> yes
19:22:57 <Toreun> I decided to play Microsoft and release an unfinished product
19:23:02 <Toreun> toreun.org
19:23:04 <Keymaker[-]> :D
19:23:18 <Keymaker[-]> i'll take a look
19:24:22 <Keymaker[-]> Ooooh :o Very nice design there!
19:25:06 -!- Keymaker[-] has changed nick to Keymaker.
19:25:12 <Toreun> thanks
19:25:18 <Toreun> I'm thinking of redesigning it a bit
19:25:27 <Toreun> I guess because I'm never satisfied
19:25:31 <Keymaker> yah
19:25:40 <Keymaker> i'm kinda same when it comes to designing something
19:25:53 <Keymaker> i'm never totally happy with my works
19:25:59 <Toreun> when I designed it a few weeks ago, I thought it looked really nice, then I took a look at sites like 1976design.com and simplebits.com and I feel, well, humbled
19:27:32 <Toreun> same here... my contentment with a project usually only lasts a few days, if at all
19:27:42 <Keymaker> yah
19:27:51 <Keymaker> same here
19:28:13 <Keymaker> oh, and gotta say that SimpleBits looks really nice as well
19:29:49 <Toreun> I know... I wish I could match those webdesign skills
19:30:28 <Keymaker> you're skills are good enough
19:30:33 <Keymaker> but my skills.. ugh..
19:30:39 <Toreun> and 1976design I like because of the header he's made - it changes based on the weather
19:30:58 <Keymaker> yeh
19:31:19 <Toreun> the main problem with my CSS-ability is I'm not good at making things compatible on every browser
19:31:43 <Keymaker> know that feeling
19:31:56 <Toreun> I just today found a technique I could use to make my website center on IE as well as Moz
19:32:07 <Keymaker> hmm
19:32:44 <Toreun> I wish I didn't have to contend with IE, but unfortunately it's used by 75% of the population
19:32:51 <Keymaker> :(
19:32:53 <Keymaker> yeah
19:33:01 <fizzie> someone was actually recommending writing css that exploited a css parsing bug in ie-5 to make the margins work the same way in ie 5 that they do in other browsers.
19:33:27 <Keymaker> hm
19:33:29 <Toreun> IE-5 has many CSS bugs
19:33:34 <Keymaker> i bet
19:33:43 <Keymaker> it has other bugs as well :)
19:33:43 <Toreun> IE6 just doesn't know how to render things
19:33:46 <Toreun> yes
19:33:59 <fizzie> well, I still don't think this:
19:34:00 <fizzie> margin-left: 199px;
19:34:00 <fizzie> voice-family: "\"}\"";
19:34:00 <fizzie> voice-family: inherit;
19:34:00 <fizzie> margin-left: 201px;
19:34:04 <fizzie> is the way to go.
19:35:01 <Keymaker> wha do you mean?
19:35:20 <Toreun> that's an IE hack
19:35:27 <Keymaker> oh
19:35:37 <Keymaker> what does it do?
19:35:47 <fizzie> makes ie5 stop parsing the css entry on that "\"}\""
19:35:50 <Toreun> IE sees the }
19:35:51 <Toreun> yeah
19:36:05 <fizzie> but I wouldn't write css like that, even if it was the only way to make things ie5-compatible.
19:36:10 <fizzie> too ugly.
19:36:26 <Toreun> another problem is IE5 isn't used by many people
19:36:28 <Toreun> so it's not worth it
19:36:37 <Keymaker> yea
19:37:05 <Toreun> hopefully webdesigners will get the hint and ditch tables for CSS and start designing for standard browsers
19:37:16 <Toreun> then M$ will have to wake up to keep in competition
19:37:43 <Keymaker> yes, it wakes up and sues every other company and coder >:)
19:38:16 <fizzie> well, when I do "webdesign" I just write html with <hN> headers and <p> paragraphs, and maybe few <hr /> rules in there. of course the end result doesn't look very pretty. :p
19:38:35 <Toreun> well, that's how HTML was meant to be
19:39:38 <Toreun> and with the advent of CSS, people could slap a stylesheet onto a page and it controls the appearance completely
19:39:59 <Keymaker> it eases things a lot
19:40:13 <Toreun> yeah, take a look at http://www.csszengarden.com/
19:40:26 <Keymaker> nice site, i've seen it sometime before :)
19:40:34 <Toreun> it has at least 100 designs that differ from each other greatly, and the html stays exactly the same
19:41:37 <Toreun> nevermind, it appears to down
19:42:28 <Keymaker> too bad :( well, good that i had my change to see it weeks before this point of time
19:43:39 <Toreun> hmm... it should be back up
19:44:18 <Toreun> weird
19:44:41 <Toreun> it's still listed on mezzoblue.com
19:44:46 <Toreun> (its creator)
19:45:35 <fizzie> things don't always work.
19:46:28 <fizzie> meh, I think I've watched that scary @ long enough, and it doesn't seem to be going away. guess I must take steps.
19:46:31 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
19:48:13 <Toreun> how unfortunate, you could've at least given it to someone else
19:48:25 <Keymaker> y.. yo....y.. you.. youre mortal again fizzie :O
19:48:41 <fizzie> I think chanserv's the sanest person here and should thusly keep the only @.
19:48:52 <Keymaker> :)
19:49:23 <Keymaker> i haven't seen him/her talking, but on the other hand i've spent quite few time here
19:51:53 <Toreun> well, the very wise only speak when absolutely necessary
19:53:14 <Keymaker> hehe
19:53:21 <Keymaker> i see
19:53:27 <fizzie> so we're not being very wise here right now.
19:53:54 <Keymaker> well, it makes one wonder, why then hang out in a channel :D
19:54:01 <Toreun> after all, "it is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, then to open it and remove all doubt" - Mark Twain
19:54:22 <Toreun> well, wisdom is probably overrated anyway
19:54:33 <Keymaker> yes
20:01:22 <Keymaker> well, soon i should make up some nice design for my site
20:01:58 <Toreun> what's your site? (assuming it's on the web)
20:02:09 <fizzie> someone should do some nice design for befunge.org. :p
20:02:27 <fizzie> "I've been busy."
20:03:23 <Toreun> well, quux.befunge.org, it seems, has an alright design
20:03:28 <Keymaker> :)
20:03:33 <Keymaker> well the site isn't in the web
20:03:35 <fizzie> well, yes, that's mooz's site.
20:03:43 <Keymaker> :)
20:03:51 <fizzie> oh, and I'd need someone who can do hr giger -like design for a project with impressive stupidity levels.
20:03:52 <Toreun> ah, it has tables
20:04:12 <Keymaker> i'm working on couple of sites
20:04:20 <Keymaker> but this design i was talking about will
20:04:27 <Keymaker> be to my "personal" site
20:04:38 <Keymaker> that'll have my (lame) brainfuck codes
20:04:54 <Toreun> my personal site (toreun.org) will have all my projects
20:05:00 <Toreun> I just haven't had the time to put them up yet
20:05:02 <Keymaker> and other code projects
20:05:09 <Toreun> and by time I mean effort
20:05:14 <Keymaker> ok
20:05:26 <fizzie> I'd need someone to design the web-frontend for darkhive.gehennom.org. (finnish-only, sorry.)
20:05:32 <Toreun> hmm... hr giger like design?
20:05:38 <fizzie> "for some reason" haven't found anyone willing yet.
20:05:53 <fizzie> yes, well, "dark hive" sort of needs something like that.
20:05:59 <Keymaker> toreun: when your projects are there, tell me so i can go and check out :)
20:06:20 <Toreun> sure thing
20:06:24 <Keymaker> ok :)
20:06:26 <fizzie> although the name is a (bad) pun - it actually comes from the contents, "d" "archive".
20:06:37 <Keymaker> hehe
20:06:38 <Toreun> first I'd have to make a collaboration of all my projects
20:06:53 <Toreun> not a bad pun
20:07:50 <fizzie> well, it's better than its as-yet unstarted sister site, sharkhive.
20:08:03 <Taaus> sh archive? :)
20:08:39 <fizzie> not really. actually it should be "ch", as in 'chat', but 'charkhive' sounds stupid.
20:08:45 <Keymaker> what does that 'd' mean and where it searches that info fizzie?
20:09:02 <fizzie> er, does it not say?
20:09:29 <fizzie> if not, I'd rather not say either. I'm.. sort of ashamed.
20:09:29 <Toreun> it might say, I'm not sure what it says exactly
20:09:39 <Keymaker> demi?
20:09:48 <fizzie> keymaker should be able to parse the language.
20:09:48 <Keymaker> um, why? :)
20:09:50 <fizzie> yes.
20:10:01 <fizzie> err.. that's a tough one.
20:10:08 <Keymaker> :D
20:10:16 <fizzie> I ask it myself over and over again whenever I need to fix the damn thing.
20:11:16 <fizzie> it's not my fault though. I'm not sure whose fault it is, but it definitely isn't mine.
20:11:44 <fizzie> sharkhive would be a similar site for mtv3's late-night sms chat things.
20:12:03 <Keymaker> i hate those chats
20:12:15 <fizzie> but I'm a bit unsure if I could reliably enough OCR the contents.
20:13:10 <fizzie> plus I don't really _want_ to keep an archive of them.
20:13:24 <Keymaker> just curiously asking, are you working on that project FOR demi?
20:13:25 <fizzie> but I don't want to keep darkhive either, and yet I still do.
20:13:34 <fizzie> nope.
20:13:37 <Keymaker> ok
20:13:45 <Keymaker> well, nicely made job anyways
20:14:00 <fizzie> you wouldn't say that if you saw the perl scripts that do the updating.
20:14:21 <Keymaker> hehe, well, i can't read perl anyways
20:14:33 <Toreun> most people can't read perl
20:14:46 <fizzie> it's a somewhat write-only language.
20:15:13 <Keymaker> :) haha
20:15:17 <fizzie> I also wrote a custom ncurses-based client for the pseudo-3d java chat applet demi.fi used to have on their site back when franticmedia was doing the webdesign there.
20:15:21 <Toreun> better than BASIC, which lacks so much functionality it's almost a read-only lanugage
20:16:23 <Keymaker> well, i haven't ever tried learning perl either. is it useful?
20:16:28 <fizzie> and then there's PILOT, which seems to me to be an execute-only language. it can't really _do_ anything, but the syntax is ugly and cryptic-like.
20:17:05 <Keymaker> hmmm.. link?
20:17:26 <fizzie> it's the language I was talking about the other day, the one I had misplaced my standard of.
20:17:49 <Keymaker> hmm, sorry, i've really the worst memory :\
20:17:57 <fizzie> and perl.. well, imho it's mildly useful for those shell scripts that are getting bit too complicated for bash+sed+awk+grep.
20:18:18 <fizzie> but then again one could just use scsh or something sensible for those.
20:21:26 <Toreun> the only reason I could see myself learning perl is because so many things are written in perl
20:21:53 <Toreun> well, learning perl more than just basics
20:22:23 <fizzie> I just wrote a simple perl script to do [something]. I wonder what it might have been.
20:23:03 <Keymaker> hehe
20:23:09 <Keymaker> comments missing?
20:23:13 <fizzie> the incredible amount of CPAN modules for just about every possible task, plus the easiness to call other programs makes perl a relatively nice language to write "glue" in.
20:23:28 <fizzie> no, it probably had comments, I just can't remember where I wrote it.
20:23:34 <fizzie> or what for.
20:23:43 <Keymaker> ok
20:28:09 <Keymaker> watched that dark star or whatever it was, yesterday fizzie?
20:32:44 <fizzie> nahh, was busy trying to make the win32-hosted symbian software development kit run on linux.
20:33:09 <fizzie> there was some pre-made glue stuff to make it work in the interweb, but it was for an earlier version of the sdk, so I had to play with it a bit.
20:34:16 <fizzie> mostly the toolchain was easy to make run on linux, just that there was some stupidity with mixed-case names (windows, as we all know, doesn't care about filename case-ness, so the mismatched usages weren't a problem there) and the lf/crlf line-terminator stupidity.
20:34:49 <Keymaker> i see
20:36:46 <Keymaker> what's the point in carriage-return actually?
20:38:07 <fizzie> well, it's useful if you want to make an updated status indicator on a relatively dumb terminal.
20:38:45 <Keymaker> in other words: it's pointless
20:38:57 <fizzie> as a line-terminator in files, yes.
20:39:02 <fizzie> as a control character, not really.
20:39:34 <Keymaker> control character?
20:40:43 <fizzie> the "move cursor to beginning of current line" control character.
20:40:46 <fizzie> very useful.
20:41:26 <Keymaker> ah, i didn't know it was called control character.. agree, it's useful
20:41:30 <fizzie> and works on a wider range of terminals than ansi/vt-100 escapes.
20:45:02 <fizzie> whoa, 1.25 hours left. I estimate this day will belong to the class "wasted time" for me.
20:45:32 <Keymaker> :(
20:45:47 <Keymaker> well, i haven't got anything useful made either
20:46:05 <Keymaker> probably i'll do some bf not to waste whole day :)
20:47:21 <fizzie> I'd need to write a z80-based-device emulator for the arm/symbian/series60. :p
20:47:39 <Keymaker> :)
20:47:48 <fizzie> sadly that'd probably be the most useful piece of code I'd have written.
20:48:06 <Keymaker> sadly?
20:48:22 <fizzie> well, some might say even that is not very useful.
20:48:39 <Keymaker> it sounds impressive anyways :)
20:48:52 <fizzie> it sounds pointless to me, but I sort of promised.
20:49:06 <Keymaker> i see
20:50:10 <fizzie> it's related to the mobile demo compo of this year's assembly04 event, if you must know.
20:50:27 <Keymaker> ah
20:51:03 <Keymaker> i haven't ever been at assembly, and probably won't go either, but i've read about the demo "scene"
20:51:23 <fizzie> the quotes definitely are in the right place.
20:51:41 <Keymaker> :)
20:51:43 <fizzie> I've been to few of the smaller finnish demoscene "events", and.. uh, it's not a pretty thing.
20:52:03 <Keymaker> too bad..
20:52:42 <Keymaker> assembly's mostly gaming these days, right?
20:52:51 <fizzie> well, yes.
20:53:02 <Keymaker> yeah :(
20:53:13 <fizzie> and the smaller events tend to include large quantities of C2H5OH, since we're in finland. :p
20:53:26 <Keymaker> hahaha
20:54:51 <fizzie> besides, in _all_ the parties (and most of the other social gatherings I've gone) I've seen jaffa/bC! naked, for one reason or the other. usually involves swimming/water, but not always. to be honest it's kinda disturbing.
20:55:23 <Keymaker> LOL
20:55:39 <Keymaker> by the way, jaffa/bC! some person i guess?
20:55:42 <fizzie> oh yes.
20:55:54 <Keymaker> heh
20:56:09 <fizzie> actually, if you want to see what a finnish demoscene event is like, just go see the 'unssia vsytt' "wild-compo entry".
20:56:17 <fizzie> I'll check the scene.org link for that.
20:56:35 <Keymaker> ok
20:56:39 <fizzie> actually it's in http://koti.mbnet.fi/megam/unssia_vasyttaa.AVI
20:57:09 <Keymaker> hmmm, how large is the file?
20:57:24 <fizzie> ~5M
20:57:32 <Keymaker> oh, ok
20:57:52 <Keymaker> i should get a lot faster connection in few days, but i guess i can download that with this :)
20:58:09 <Keymaker> argh, i mean few weeks, small typo there..
20:58:16 <fizzie> it's from the 'stream 2003' partay.
20:58:21 <fizzie> I rather like the internet here.
21:00:40 <Keymaker> started downloading . . . .
21:02:37 <fizzie> don't blame me for wasting your bandwidth, then. :p
21:02:52 <Keymaker> hehe
21:04:17 <Keymaker> it's painful waiting; i have new computer 1 meter near this old one, and i'm waiting the new connection while surfing the web with windows 98 (barf!) without mouse (it isn't hard, but slow)
21:04:45 <fizzie> ahemh.
21:05:06 <fizzie> "win98 without mouse" sounds like something to use as a punishment for misbehaving slaves.
21:05:13 <Keymaker> yeah
21:05:22 <Keymaker> it is :(
21:05:33 <fizzie> "and for stealing some office supplies -- you get to surf the interweb for three days on win98 without the mouse!"
21:05:47 <Keymaker> hehe
21:05:48 <Toreun> "win98" sounds like a punishment in and of itself :-P
21:05:55 <Keymaker> i know, i know :(
21:06:18 <Keymaker> i've been wanting to get linux or something other os than it for many years but couldn't get anything done to that thing :(
21:06:24 <Keymaker> i dunno where to start
21:09:24 <Toreun> did you try downloading a liveeval and using that?
21:09:50 <Keymaker> no, i haven't tried absolutely anything :(
21:10:12 <Toreun> download distro from distrowatch.com and try it
21:10:32 <fizzie> knoppix is relatively nice to use, too, if the system has a bootable cd drive.
21:12:07 <fizzie> I used knoppix to do some benchmarking for our 'sorting algorith optimization' study thing (for a course here at hut) on an otherwise-windows-only box.
21:12:46 <Keymaker> hmm
21:14:13 <fizzie> now I've got the ur-quan kzer-za theme music stuck in my head.
21:14:42 <Keymaker> :)
21:14:46 <Keymaker> is it some movie?
21:15:00 <fizzie> from 'star control 2', a pc-game a while back.
21:16:05 <Keymaker> :)
21:16:20 <Keymaker> i'm into classic platformers
21:16:42 <Toreun> I still like my Zork
21:16:56 <Toreun> graphics are a waste of time
21:17:06 <Keymaker> yeah
21:17:20 <fizzie> I don't really do games nowadays, but I used to play star control 2 back when it was a new game, and it wasn't bad.
21:17:32 <fizzie> if you don't have anything else to do, you could check out http://sc2.sourceforge.net/
21:17:35 <Toreun> neither do I - at least video games
21:17:48 <Toreun> I like board/card games more
21:18:17 <Keymaker> i play my favourite games, commander keen adventures daily :)
21:18:19 <fizzie> well, I have to admit that from time to time I get the urge to start nethack and do a yet-another-stupid-death in it.
21:19:44 <Keymaker> i've heard about that but not played
21:19:55 <fizzie> wonder where mooz is, he said he'll be back "in evening".
21:20:22 <Keymaker> well, the night is young :)
21:20:26 <Toreun> I don't know, but atm I'm browsing his site and playing with that impressive javascript bef interpreter
21:20:52 <fizzie> well, I assumed the "standard" definition of 'evening' there.
21:21:27 <Toreun> standard definition of evening where? finland?
21:21:55 <Keymaker> i guess
21:21:57 <Keymaker> :)
21:22:19 <Toreun> what, is it 2320 there? I don't know what timezone it's in
21:22:24 <fizzie> 23:20, yeah.
21:22:25 <Keymaker> yeah
21:22:28 <fizzie> EEST.
21:22:50 <Toreun> ah
21:23:40 <Keymaker> too bad there's summer time, i like winter more :)
21:24:21 <fizzie> I dislike the fact that my apartment gets unbearably hot during the summer.
21:24:22 <Toreun> I like summer more, but that's probably just because I'm still in school, and around here we don't have school in summer
21:25:06 <fizzie> re school, wonder when our lectures start again next year.
21:25:29 <Keymaker> ^ i'm in that nuthouse as well, but i like still cold winter more
21:25:32 <fizzie> or if I should do anything education-related still.
21:25:48 <Keymaker> yeah
21:28:50 <fizzie> still ~.5h left to make this a non-wasted day. wonder what I could manage in that time.
21:29:13 <Keymaker> hmmmmm
21:29:14 <fizzie> maybe 'apt-get update ; apt-get upgrade' that debian box to the left of me.
21:29:49 <fizzie> it's debian-unstable and hasn't been updated in two weeks or so, I'll estimate ~100MB of updates.
21:29:54 <Toreun> you're lucky, I still have 7.5h left to waste
21:29:58 <fizzie> let's see.
21:30:16 <fizzie> hm.
21:30:23 <fizzie> 198MB of data to download.
21:30:28 <fizzie> my estimate was a bit off then.
21:31:45 <Keymaker> oh, forgot to say, i see what you meant with that "unssia vasyttaa" vid
21:33:15 <fizzie> mm.
21:33:26 <fizzie> asmebly isn't quite like that, of course.
21:34:07 <Keymaker> :)
21:36:36 <fizzie> how typical.
21:37:55 <fizzie> "kdelibs4" and "kdelibs-bin" both depend on libcupsys2 >= 1.1.19final-1, but "libgnomeprint2.2-0" depends on libcupsys2-gnutls, which conflicts with libcupsys2.
21:38:58 <Toreun> of course
21:39:41 <fizzie> well, my own fault of course.
21:40:04 <fizzie> I just _had_ to install the gnome-2.6 stuff from the 'experimental' package collection of debian.
21:40:44 <fizzie> at least I get updates from ftp.fi.debian.org at ~3000kB/s, keeping a debian-unstable with a dialup would be a new definition for the word pain.
21:42:43 <fizzie> yay.
21:42:59 <fizzie> I have some documentation in the .chm file format.
21:43:04 <fizzie> that windows htmlhelp thingie.
21:43:33 <fizzie> so I install xCHM, and verify remotely (x-forward) that it works, and think "well great, I can read the docs I have"
21:44:19 <fizzie> now I started that xCHM locally. it.. "works properly", escept that instead of normal letters I get a collection of boxes.
21:44:44 <fizzie> large boxes and small boxes, bold-font boxes and blue underlined boxes (links), but boxes anyway.
21:45:26 <fizzie> I can also change the font to get different-looking boxes.
21:58:10 <fizzie> eh. of course all other chm files open with it just perfectly except the one I'd need to read. (and that one worked when used remotely.)
22:01:10 <fizzie> great. xchm needs to be linked with gtk2 to work with unicode/utf8 chm files, but the debian version of course isn't.
22:02:04 <Keymaker> aaaaaaargh, time is ~up, it's 0000 and no progress on anything :(
22:02:23 <fizzie> same here.
22:02:41 <Keymaker> well, better luck today :)
22:06:33 <fizzie> well, if I manage to drag myself to work there's a slight chance I might manage to get something done.
22:06:50 <Keymaker> :)
22:07:11 <fizzie> sleeping would help make that probability a bit larger. maybe I should switch to the irc-terminal in my bed, that usually makes me fall asleep pretty fast.
22:07:26 <Keymaker> hehe
22:07:55 <Keymaker> well, i'm not going to be here much time anymore today (i mean today before i'm going to sleep)
22:07:55 <Toreun> are we that boring? :-P
22:08:03 <Keymaker> ^ yeah
22:08:05 <Keymaker> ;)
22:10:07 <fizzie> they're building some new student apartments right next to my window, so I can't even sleep long in the mornings.
22:10:24 <Keymaker> :(
22:10:36 <Keymaker> those darn students >:)
22:10:58 <Toreun> gotta hate 'em
22:13:22 <fizzie> well, I'm one of 'em.
22:13:42 <fizzie> but I already have an apartment, so I see no need to build more of them.
22:16:07 <Keymaker> // count sheeps
22:16:07 <Keymaker> const int SHEEPS = 5000;
22:16:07 <Keymaker> for (int i = 0; i < SHEEPS; i = i + 1) { }
22:16:07 <Keymaker> // now start sleeping
22:16:47 <Keymaker> i think i'll leave the place for this night and go sleeping/restarting my 30000 brain cell byte array ;)
22:17:49 <Keymaker> good night
22:17:51 -!- Keymaker has quit.
22:21:02 <fizzie> I'll probably fall asleep soon too.
22:21:55 <Toreun> k, night
22:22:00 <lament> A long-forgotten loved one will appear soon.
22:22:00 <lament> Buy the negatives at any price.
22:22:50 <fizzie> izzat a fortune?
22:40:32 <fizzie> oh! it's 5th of confusion, 3170, today, at least according to my timezone already. celebrate (or don't) syaday.
22:42:07 <lament> ooh
22:42:19 <lament> still 4th here
22:42:39 <fizzie> I am back in the future, then.
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19:04:40 <fizzie> why do you suppose it is that nowadays we only seem to speak when that 'keymaker' person is here?
19:05:04 <lament> he's the life of the party.
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20:34:43 <Keymaker> hi-ya
20:35:07 <mtve> hello
20:35:10 <Keymaker> hi
20:37:32 <fizzie> evening.
20:37:35 <Keymaker> evening
20:37:56 <Keymaker> by the way, [enter the usual question here]?
20:39:33 <fizzie> [enter the usual response here].
20:40:23 <Keymaker> [enter the usual 'too bad'-reply here]
20:42:35 <Keymaker> hmmm, can anyone suggest any good science fiction or cyberpunk books that focus on robots?
20:50:11 <fizzie> anything by asimov.
20:50:25 <fizzie> well, maybe not anything, but something.
20:50:37 <Keymaker> hmmm
20:51:30 <fizzie> I'm bad at remembering the names of his especially good books. maybe mooz could recommend?
20:52:41 <Keymaker> let's hope so :)
21:15:40 <Keymaker> he's probably not home..
21:16:27 <fizzie> well, he was home just few hours ago, I don't see how he might have managed to disappear since then.
21:16:31 <fizzie> but maybe you're right.
21:17:49 <Keymaker> heh
21:25:01 <fizzie> hmph, my usb support went broken.
21:25:20 <fizzie> Jun 1 02:31:30 zark kernel: usb 3-2: new full speed USB device using address 9
21:25:23 <fizzie> Jun 1 02:31:30 zark kernel: usb 3-2: device not accepting address 9, error -71
21:25:27 <fizzie> worked just fine for addresses <8.
21:26:16 <Keymaker> too bad, any idea what could be wrong?
21:27:23 <fizzie> nope. well, maybe the device dislikes addresses that are more than three bits long.
21:30:30 <fizzie> I know for a fact that dodongo dislikes smoke.
21:32:52 <Keymaker> i don't see.. :\
21:34:40 <fizzie> that's a "fact" that I've been unable to get out of my head lately.
21:35:27 <Keymaker> ok
21:35:43 <Keymaker> where did you get that fact?
21:38:57 <fizzie> I don't know.
21:39:06 <fizzie> maybe it was a dream?
21:40:05 <Keymaker> :) most probably
21:41:19 <fizzie> google found me http://dodongosmoke.ytmnd.com/
21:42:57 <Keymaker> ah, i see now
21:42:59 <Keymaker> :)
21:44:35 <Keymaker> kinda off-topic; my wrist is really hurting, i don't know why, it's been hurting the whole day :(
21:49:54 <fizzie> so had mine yesterday, but it went away after I slept.
21:50:11 <Keymaker> hopefully this goes away too
21:50:16 <Keymaker> maybe too much keyboarding
21:50:25 <Keymaker> ..or too few..
21:50:36 <fizzie> 23:40:11 < SLi> Paitsi nykynppiksi ei meinaa uskaltaa ostaa kun niiss lukee aina jotain "Varoitus: Useiden asiantuntijoiden mielest MINK TAHANSA nppimistn kytt saattaa PERUUTTAMATTOMASTI TUHOTA puolet aivosoluistasi vuorokauden vlein."
21:50:43 <fizzie> sorry for the language.
21:51:15 <Keymaker> :)
21:51:34 <mooz-> I don't know any robot books :/
21:51:41 <Keymaker> ok
21:52:18 <Keymaker> i don't either, at least not many, but i'll try to find out some..
21:52:22 <mooz-> except some by asimov of course
21:52:30 <Keymaker> tell
21:52:31 <fizzie> well, there's a short story collection by asimov called 'robots of dawn' (on this book-cd for example), I'd assume some of the stories are about robots.
21:52:56 <mooz-> "I, robot" for example is a very known robot story
21:52:58 <Keymaker> well, judging by the name . . .
21:53:07 <Keymaker> i should read that
21:53:30 <mooz-> they're making a movie of it
21:53:32 <Keymaker> i saw nice looking trailer about an upcoming movie with the same title,
21:53:42 <Keymaker> (too slow fingers)
21:54:03 <Keymaker> seems promising
21:55:27 <fizzie> other asimov collections (title not necessary containing the word 'robot') have related stories too.
21:55:38 <Keymaker> ok
21:57:08 <mooz-> do androids dream of electric sheep?
21:57:23 <fizzie> I think they do.
21:57:37 <fizzie> the book's a lot better than the movie.
21:58:25 <Keymaker> sounds interesting
21:58:41 <Keymaker> what kind o story it is?
21:59:08 <fizzie> the movie's called 'blade runner', you may have heard of it.
21:59:17 <Keymaker> yeah
21:59:21 <Keymaker> even seen it
21:59:52 <fizzie> book's by philip k. dick, who has written lots of excellent books, imho. not about robots though.
22:00:19 <Keymaker> hmmm, name sounds familiar, maybe i've read some books by him
22:01:00 <lament> robots suck.
22:01:26 <lament> But do read Karel Capek.
22:01:43 <Keymaker> hmm, what kind of books?
22:01:47 <fizzie> well, some titles by him include _ubik_, _a skanner darkly_, _rautavaara's case_, _second variety_ (this one was a collection of short stories, I think, and the 'second variety' story was related to robots), and others.
22:02:02 <mooz-> ubik's wacky
22:02:32 <mooz-> for good less-known scifi, read rupert goodwins' "weird dreams"
22:02:37 <fizzie> oh yes.
22:02:49 <Keymaker> i'll try to keep in mind those names
22:03:00 <mooz-> weird dreams is available online only
22:03:06 <Keymaker> ok
22:03:59 <Keymaker> i'll search it sometime, probably if i would now, i would probably find some freaky bizarre sites only
22:04:23 <mooz-> www.geocities.com/jeremyalansmith/level9/
22:04:28 <Keymaker> oh thanks
22:04:36 <mooz-> that's where it legally exists, at least
22:19:20 <fizzie> reading the 'wreckers' story.
22:35:55 <Keymaker> hmm
22:35:59 <Keymaker> i think
22:36:13 <Keymaker> i'll go to sleep.. ZzzZzzzzZz
22:36:28 <Keymaker> good night
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22:37:31 <calamari_> hi
22:38:00 <Toreun> hi
22:49:28 <Toreun> how's your c compiler coming, calamari?
22:54:41 <lament> hm
22:54:46 <lament> i wonder how a language would look
22:54:50 <lament> in which you have the functions:
22:54:55 <lament> S, K, I and XOR
23:00:25 <calamari_> toreun: haven't worked on it.. my wife and I went up to the mountains camping last night.. was fun :)
23:01:00 <Toreun> lament: S, K, and I?
23:12:14 <kosmikus> lament: why XOR? well, why I?
23:13:16 <kosmikus> Toreun: http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=combinator&action=Search
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23:37:08 <calamari_> bbl.. need food
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23:37:21 <lament> kosmikus: heh!
23:37:31 <lament> kosmikus: i'm not sure what XOR would do, though.
23:37:46 <lament> kosmikus: I guess S could be like true and K like false, and ditch I...
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23:42:14 <kosmikus> ah, so the XOR should operator on the combinators?
23:42:21 <lament> well of course
23:42:25 <lament> but i have no idea how
23:43:12 <kosmikus> why do you want the XOR at all? just for redundancy and obfuscation? ;)
23:46:27 <lament> of course.
23:46:29 <lament> ok screw xor
23:46:34 <lament> the basic idea is:
23:46:46 <lament> find some nice way to map true/false to ski-expressions
23:47:56 <kosmikus> nicer than encoding them in untyped lambda calculus, and translating that to SK-expressions?
23:49:22 <lament> what
23:52:19 <kosmikus> what?
23:54:37 <lament> what?
23:57:17 <kosmikus> which part of my original question should I explain in more detail?
23:59:26 <lament> i don't understand what you mean by 'encoding them in untyped lambda calculus and translating that to sk-expressions'
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